# People getting racially abused because of the referendum result



## bi0boy (Jun 25, 2016)

Apparently there is quite a lot of this going on now.


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## alfajobrob (Jun 25, 2016)

I've been abused re. the result - but I am in Berlin atm so fuck them sideways


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## NoXion (Jun 25, 2016)

As someone who voted Leave for non-racist reasons, I would feel obligated to speak out if this happened in my presence. So far it hasn't happened, but it's early days yet.


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## crossthebreeze (Jun 25, 2016)

I've been really worried about stuff like this potentially happening - its sad to hear its actually happening.


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## Spymaster (Jun 25, 2016)

It was always going to happen.


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## QueenOfGoths (Jun 25, 2016)

Not seen or heard anything thankfully but one of the Mums at nursery, who is originally from Eastern Europe, was telling me yesterday that lots of kids in her elder (11 year older) daughter's class have been saying that if you don't have a UK passport you will have to leave the UK and getting worried because it applies to their parents.

She sensibly told her daughter this was rubbish and I think was going to have a word with the teacher to see if something could be said to reassure those kids who were worried.


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## J Ed (Jun 25, 2016)

My OH who works in a school says that there has been a real uptick in racism and racist comments in the past month.


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## SovietArmy (Jun 25, 2016)

Yesterday somebody asked me at work, you can go back to your country.  I am happy to stay here that was my answer.


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## Spymaster (Jun 25, 2016)

SovietArmy said:


> Yesterday somebody asked me at work, you can go back to your country.  I am happy to stay here that was my answer.


And you are very welcome to do so, SA.


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## captainmission (Jun 25, 2016)

Overheard a woman on the bus having a conversation about how she was racial abused- told to go home. Considering she was on the bus to Moss Side presumably she was.


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## two sheds (Jun 25, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> It was always going to happen.



Yep is true enough. It's what happens when the right wing of the tory party, UKIP and the media combine to set the discussion topics.


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## Skyfallsz (Jun 25, 2016)

Apparently Chris Eubank is being made to change his name to Chris Bank


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## Skyfallsz (Jun 25, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> I've been really worried about stuff like this potentially happening - its sad to hear its actually happening.



That sort of applies to everything bad happening


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## bi0boy (Jun 25, 2016)




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## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2016)

Sad but I am afraid inevitable that Laurie Penny was a victim of this (according to her tweet in the op image) . Unfortunate life , shes been a victim of nearly everything else as well .


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> It was always going to happen.


So far Ive read twice now on urban that its the EUs fault that theres racism.


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## danny la rouge (Jun 25, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Sad but I am afraid inevitable that Laurie Penny was a victim of this (according to her tweet in the op image) . Unfortunate life , shes been a victim of nearly everything else as well .


She's always been an early adopter.


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

From other threads


friendofdorothy said:


> heard about my first brexit racist incident already.
> 
> Someone  I know (black british woman) was rascially abused this morning by some drunk guy (white man in a suit who looked like he might have been drinking all night) he very loudly anouced that this person and that one and that one (pointing to each black person) and shouting that they would now be up for deportation.
> 
> ffs





ska invita said:


> Just looked on facebook for the first time since the vote was won (wont be going back anytime soon! )... in amongst it all saw two posts from people saying how uncomfortable and nervous they were, one of whom left France with her daughter to come to London because of Le Pen and was musing about what to do next... hopefully there wont be a rise in racist incidents (unlikely), but even without it the mood is sour out here.





Spymaster said:


> Bloke in a newsagents yesterday singing "it's a great day for England" at the asian shopkeeper.





Dogsauce said:


> I've heard of a couple of incidents from friends, one witnessed an Eastern European waitress being asked 'why are you smiling when you're getting deported'.
> 
> I think there's generally been a rise in this sort of thing in recent years - I'm wondering if the fact people can more comfortably get away with spouting bigoted shit on social media/btl without being challenged (at least in person) gets them more used to this sort of behaviour, or makes them feel emboldened when others join in, such that it more readily spills into the real world. I think 'Brexit' just gives them a theme for their comments but isn't necessarily the driver of the behaviour.
> 
> I don't really know how it gets fixed (other than some aggressive moderating of comments sections or social media, but that involves actually employing people, and can feed that victimisation complex that a lot of bigots thrive on.


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## Idris2002 (Jun 25, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Sad but I am afraid inevitable that Laurie Penny was a victim of this (according to her tweet in the op image) . Unfortunate life , shes been a victim of nearly everything else as well .


If Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least make a favourable reference to Laurie Penny in parliament.


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## danny la rouge (Jun 25, 2016)

Although I was flippant about Penny Laurie, it's not funny that this is happening. Obviously.


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

Completely irrationally, as im utterly settled in the London in every conceivable way, the thought keeps popping in my head seemingly out of nowhere 'maybe i should leave'. Its deep in my subconscious...cant sleep properly and feel a little sick


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

Is this what BAME people have to look forward to post-Brexit?


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## Spymaster (Jun 25, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Is this what BAME people have to look forward to post-Brexit?


I'm fucking fuming. Half hoping some cunt tells me to fuck off home this afternoon.


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## Dandred (Jun 25, 2016)

Wow! The scum really are coming out of the wood work now.


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

AS i said to some one on urban I remember the 80s...to which i was reassured ' we wont be going back to the 80s'.


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

bi0boy said:


>



"
Police are investigating suspected post-referendum racism after hate mail aimed at the Polish community was allegedly distributed in Cambridgeshire.

Laminated cards reading “Leave the EU - no more Polish vermin” were found in Huntingdon, north west of Cambridge.

The Polish language newspaper, Nasze Strony, reports on the incident and on the fact that the cards even had a translation in Polish on the reverse.

Teachers at a school near to where some of the cards were found yesterday reportedly threw them away but more were left on a path leading to it later.

Inspector Nick Percival of Cambridgeshire Constabulary told the Guardian that police were aware of the incident.

He added: “We are aware of it and have had a report from a member of the public. We are following up are taking it seriously as it does represent a hate crime. We would encourage anyone who is either a victim or is aware of the source of this to come forward.”"


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## stethoscope (Jun 25, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Completely irrationally, as im utterly settled in the London in every conceivable way, the thought keeps popping in my head seemingly out of nowhere 'maybe i should leave'. Its deep in my subconscious...cant sleep properly and feel a little sick



PM coming your way.. x


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## Miss-Shelf (Jun 25, 2016)

My Italian landlord and the Spanish lodger were told to go home yesterday


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 25, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Apparently there is quite a lot of this going on now.




Not from a vacuum. Appeased for years, racists have used "pc gone mad" as a shield,closed down debate saying "you're closing down debate".


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## dessiato (Jun 25, 2016)

My father in law told us not to worry about it. We live in Spain so it won't affect us, he thinks.


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## Flavour (Jun 25, 2016)

Not at all the same thing and absolutely not making light of the real, vicious racism that has been let out of the bottle in the UK, but I have been on the receiving end of some anti-english comments in italy today. Even if it's only half serious, and not comparable to the stuff reported above, it still has felt weird, as I've never experienced it before.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 25, 2016)

ska invita said:


> AS i said to some one on urban I remember the 80s...to which i was reassured ' we wont be going back to the 80s'.




Hmm...are they racist though, or should we "listen to their concerns"?


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## Miss-Shelf (Jun 25, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Hmm...are they racist though, or should we "listen to their concerns"?


Both?


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## stethoscope (Jun 25, 2016)

ska invita said:


> AS i said to some one on urban I remember the 80s...to which i was reassured ' we wont be going back to the 80s'.




Fuck me, that cunt Milo's replies on that.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 25, 2016)

Flavour said:


> I have been on the receiving end of some anti-english comments in italy today. Even if it's only half serious, and not comparable to the stuff reported above, it still has felt weird, as I've never experienced it before.



What happened/was said?


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## sunnysidedown (Jun 25, 2016)

ska invita said:


> AS i said to some one on urban I remember the 80s...to which i was reassured ' we wont be going back to the 80s'.




If that photo of the nf in Newcastle was taken in the 80s there would be at least 40 of them, not 4.


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## Idris2002 (Jun 25, 2016)

sunnysidedown said:


> If that photo of the nf in Newcastle was taken in the 80s there would be at least 40 of them, not 4.



They'll be thinking "all in good time".


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## sunnysidedown (Jun 25, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> They'll be thinking "all in good time".



I'm disappointed no one managed to get a picture of some Japanese tourists getting their picture taken in front of them.


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

sunnysidedown said:


> If that photo of the nf in Newcastle was taken in the 80s there would be at least 40 of them, not 4.





sunnysidedown said:


> I'm disappointed no one managed to get a picture of some Japanese tourists getting their picture taken in front of them.



i guess what you're trying to do - say its not that bad. The man who posted the picture says he left newcastle in 84 after his family were attacked in their homes for being black. I think he knows all too well what it was like in the 80s. 

Its only been 24 hours since the vote and have a look at this thread. 
Two options - its a honeymoon period for racists and it'll peter out, or the momentum they have will see it grow and grow.


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## keybored (Jun 25, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Fuck me, that cunt Milo's replies on that.


Don't think that's the real Milo though.


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## stethoscope (Jun 25, 2016)

keybored said:


> Don't think that's the real Milo though.



Blimey it's not either, he appears to have loads of followers that all call themselves Milo too, use his pic and troll. Jesus.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2016)

sunnysidedown said:


> I'm disappointed no one managed to get a picture of some Japanese tourists getting their picture taken in front of them.



_I'm alright Jack._


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## sunnysidedown (Jun 25, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> _I'm alright Jack._



The monument in Newcastle used to be the scene of pitched battles with the nf, they never held it for long.

It seems people today are more interested in taking photos of them.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jun 25, 2016)

ska invita said:


> AS i said to some one on urban I remember the 80s...to which i was reassured ' we wont be going back to the 80s'.




In the 70s and 80s it wouldn't have been four blokes.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## oryx (Jun 25, 2016)

Frightening and horrific stuff but sadly not unexpected when the wishes of an openly racist party have been validated. 

The stories and pictures have absolutely disgusted me and it is almost guaranteed to get worse.

Sadly predictable though.


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> In the 70s and 80s it wouldn't have been four blokes.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


yeah, cheers


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## Idris2002 (Jun 25, 2016)

ska invita said:


> yeah, cheers



Mine'sh a double.


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## Flavour (Jun 25, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> What happened/was said?



Just stuff like how we've always been a thorn in the side of Europe, and we'll be better off without you anyway, you make life difficult, you're hooligans, if you don't wanna be part of a United Europe then do one. Like I said, nothing really malicious or out of the ordinary (the usual stuff about the English eating shit and having dirty bums is sort of perennial) but I guess it just feels a bit more acidic. It's nothing though, I wouldn't really class it as racial abuse at all. But it is a result of this referendum.


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

Flavour said:


> Just stuff like how we've always been a thorn in the side of Europe, and we'll be better off without you anyway, you make life difficult, you're hooligans, if you don't wanna be part of a United Europe then do one. Like I said, nothing really malicious or out of the ordinary (the usual stuff about the English eating shit and having dirty bums is sort of perennial) but I guess it just feels a bit more acidic. It's nothing though, I wouldn't really class it as racial abuse at all. But it is a result of this referendum.


its going to have massive represcussions across europe - definitely relevant to this thread i think.


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

etc.
I think we get the picture


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## J Ed (Jun 25, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Blimey it's not either, he appears to have loads of followers that all call themselves Milo too, use his pic and troll. Jesus.



Most pathetic personality cult in history.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 25, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> In the 70s and 80s it wouldn't have been four blokes.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Nice.


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## Anju (Jun 25, 2016)

My niece, along with her 7 year old daughter had racist remarks made to them on the morning the result was announced.  This was in Lewisham so dread to think what it is like in areas with strong leave results. 

The Newcastle picture posted earlier in the thread makes me wish I had a gun and not long left to live.


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## tim (Jun 25, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Sad but I am afraid inevitable that Laurie Penny was a victim of this (according to her tweet in the op image) . Unfortunate life , shes been a victim of nearly everything else as well .



She's even claimed that there are people posting on this site who pick on her. I really do hope that this is not true!


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2016)

Anju said:


> My niece, along with her 7 year old daughter had racist remarks made to them on the morning the result was announced.  This was in Lewisham so dread to think what it is like in areas with strong leave results.
> 
> The Newcastle picture posted earlier in the thread makes me wish I had a gun and not long left to live.



On my way into central Lewisham on voting day...massive traffic jam as per usual as it's the main road out to South East London Burbs and Kent etc... The passenger in a works van shouts 'leave' ...I turn around make eye contact, he doesn't have the nerve to say anything else and then I assess who he was talking to...myself and another woman pushing a small child in a pram.  Fuck off back to Kent is what I thought.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2016)

tim said:


> She's even claimed that there are people posting on this site who pick on her. I really do hope that this is not true!



There are people on this site who don't like her and have been very vocal about it. Of course she feels picked on. She's not immune to the 'wanna be liked' emotion.


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## pengaleng (Jun 25, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Sad but I am afraid inevitable that Laurie Penny was a victim of this (according to her tweet in the op image) . Unfortunate life , shes been a victim of nearly everything else as well .



and made a career out of it 

the professional victim.


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## crossthebreeze (Jun 25, 2016)

sunnysidedown said:


> The monument in Newcastle used to be the scene of pitched battles with the nf, they never held it for long.
> 
> It seems people today are more interested in taking photos of them.


Monument itself was held by several hundred anti-racists today.  NF were over the road from monument, and around 25 EDL were on the other side of monument hiding behind a police line.  These numbers are actually not that big for fash mobilisations in the northeast.  The sight of them in my city is fucking disgusting and anger-making.  I was with a march against the immigration act which had been called by the Migration and Justice Forum which some groups i'm involved with had agreed to support.  The EDL had mobilised against the march.  Newcastle Unites (basically SWP + Labour but they can mobilise quite a bit of support) called a rally against the EDL at Monument (without co-ordinating with the march organisers).  There was always the chance that the march could have been attacked on route (thankfully it wasn't) so it was important for people to support the march -I hadn't been that up for the idea of the march in the first place, but while we had a couple of people shouting stuff at us, the route of the march was through a neighbourhood with a large BME community and then through the centre of town, and we had several people actually thanking us as we went past - it seemed like a positive thing to do in the end.  Unfortunately monument today wasn't the time or place for pitched battles against the fash for various reasons, not least because of the history of certain key members of Newcastle Unites have of naming militant antifascists to the police - monument and the surrounding area is absolutely covered with cameras too.  So Newcastle Unites shouted at the EDL from behind a police line, some young people that had been with the march played loud music at and generally annoyed the NF until that lot of fash packed up, and the Migration and Justice Forum had a rally.  Lots of passers by that I talked to were disgusted by the presence of the NF/EDL.  The police seemed really keen to protect the fash from any insults from passing shoppers - and the fash certainly didn't have support from the majority of Newcastle.  If anyone thinks they can do anything more to challenge the fash in the circumstances, please come up to Newcastle and do it though!


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## Coolfonz (Jun 25, 2016)

pengaleng said:


> and made a career out of it
> 
> the professional victim.


The far right and the nationalists are the professional victims (no idea who Laurie Penny is, a journo? DJ?). Personal responsibility no, victimhood yes.


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## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2016)

tim said:


> She's even claimed that there are people posting on this site who pick on her. I really do hope that this is not true!


Woe and thrice woe


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## sunnysidedown (Jun 25, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> _snip_



Thanks for the report. Just to clarify, my comment was more an observation between then and now. Tactics today are a different kettle of fish!


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## Numbers (Jun 25, 2016)

Have seen some really unsavoury behaviour around here today, the pub at the top of the road has a few of the local heads sat outside and when anyone of foreign persuasion walks by they all wave little union jack flags and sing a few lines of god save the queen followed by various football type chants.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jun 25, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Nice.



Why nice?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## stethoscope (Jun 25, 2016)

I'm expecting some 'told you so' here, but even I've been genuinely surprised at just quite the blatancy and frequency of some of the things I've heard today. Don't get me wrong, both remain and leave have been filled full of right-wing sentiment, and leave especially has obviously attracted all manner of right and far-right voices. That was no surprise. But whilst I expected the Britain First, EDL type groups to be out and exploiting a leave vote (and I'm pleased to see some mobilisation already from anti-fascists to confront this), the reports of casual drive-by style abuse and people making offensive comments to anyone going by who look/sound 'foreign' is really something I wasn't really expecting to be quite like this and so soon. Perhaps I had a higher expectation of civility within society than what really exists.

I know I shouldn't be surprised. We've got major problems festering in Europe and have had for a while now - the rise of far right in other parts of Europe have been vocal for a while. And the referendum here has exposed that and we're seeing our own homegrown reaction. What we are seeing in the rise of populist right and far-right is very much down to EU neoliberalism (and member state government policies) and of lack of sovereignty, that has screwed over workers and conditions across Europe, creating a very unequal, unfair and uncertain Europe. And I think that far from the EU creating some sort of adopted 'European' identity to bring us all together, their runs some very deep cracks which if not had been seen right now through our own referendum leave vote, were going to come increasingly to the fore anyway. I'm not convinced that a remain would have especially stopped any of this happening that much further down the road. Other member states, if not so boldly before, will now be looking at their own futures as part of the EU. The EU project is failing.

As I still believe, there were no great outcomes from this referendum - remain or leave. And despite my own left-leave. We have some deep divisions both here in the UK, and across Europe. Whilst I believe the fight is very much on now to carve out some positive change from the mess, my concern is that the working class and poor (and I mean that in an international sense), will continue to be marginalised whilst the EU and governments continue to aggressively pursue neoliberalism (one of market liberalisation, of privatisation, of constantly reducing wages and conditions) and the very real negative societal and economic effects this has on the rest of us.


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## friendofdorothy (Jun 26, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I'm expecting some 'told you so' here, but even I've been genuinely surprised at just quite the blatancy and frequency of some of the things I've heard today. Don't get me wrong, both remain and leave have been filled full of right-wing sentiment, and leave especially has obviously attracted all manner of right and far-right voices. That was no surprise. But whilst I expected the Britain First, EDL type groups to be out and exploiting a leave vote (and I'm pleased to see some mobilisation already from anti-fascists to confront this), the reports of casual drive-by style abuse and people making offensive comments to anyone going by who look/sound 'foreign' is really something I wasn't really expecting to be quite like this and so soon. Perhaps I had a higher expectation of civility within society than what really exists.
> 
> I know I shouldn't be surprised. We've got major problems festering in Europe and have had for a while now - the rise of far right in other parts of Europe have been vocal for a while. And the referendum here has exposed that and we're seeing our own homegrown reaction. What we are seeing in the rise of populist right and far-right is very much down to EU neoliberalism (and member state government policies) and of lack of sovereignty, that has screwed over workers and conditions across Europe, creating a very unequal, unfair and uncertain Europe. And I think that far from the EU creating some sort of adopted 'European' identity to bring us all together, their runs some very deep cracks which if not had been seen right now through our own referendum leave vote, were going to come increasingly to the fore anyway. I'm not convinced that a remain would have especially stopped any of this happening that much further down the road. Other member states, if not so boldly before, will now be looking at their own futures as part of the EU. The EU project is failing.
> 
> As I still believe, there were no great outcomes from this referendum - remain or leave. And despite my own left-leave. We have some deep divisions both here in the UK, and across Europe. Whilst I believe the fight is very much on now to carve out some positive change from the mess, my concern is that the working class and poor (and I mean that in an international sense), will continue to be marginalised whilst the EU and governments continue to aggressively pursue neoliberalism (one of market liberalisation, of privatisation, of constantly reducing wages and conditions) and the very real negative societal and economic effects this has on the rest of us.


I think politicians and the media have enjoyed an enormous about of shit stirring in the referendum build up and that there has been far too much focus of immigration issues by the far right. 

I don't think either side had the interests of the poor and the working class in mind when they where stirring up some powerful emotions with their often deceitful and misleading arguments. It feels like the UK has never been more divided. I'm not sure how these differences can ever be reconcilled.


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## oryx (Jun 26, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> What we are seeing in the rise of populist right and far-right is very much down to EU neoliberalism (and member state government policies) and of lack of sovereignty, that has screwed over workers and conditions across Europe, creating a very unequal, unfair and uncertain Europe.



I'm not sure about that in a wider historical context. The rise of the populist right in the Thirties (and its subsequent outcomes) obviously far predates the EU.

And the 70s (Lewisham 77, the rise of the NF and all that) predate the rise of neoliberalism and globalisation.

Immigrant blaming is as old as history. (No suggestion whatsoever, steth, that you personally or many others on here who were in favour of 'Lexit' are doing that BTW).


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## sihhi (Jun 26, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I'm expecting some 'told you so' here, but even I've been genuinely surprised at just quite the blatancy and frequency of some of the things I've heard today. Don't get me wrong, both remain and leave have been filled full of right-wing sentiment, and leave especially has obviously attracted all manner of right and far-right voices. That was no surprise. But whilst I expected the Britain First, EDL type groups to be out and exploiting a leave vote (and I'm pleased to see some mobilisation already from anti-fascists to confront this), the reports of casual drive-by style abuse and people making offensive comments to anyone going by who look/sound 'foreign' is really something I wasn't really expecting to be quite like this and so soon. Perhaps I had a higher expectation of civility within society than what really exists.



Those who are racist - bearing in mind the BNP got over 900,000 votes in the Euro elections before last - will inevitably seek to test the waters to push the boundaries because they are emboldened by thinking that 17,000,000 agree with them. 
Also the past two months have seen constant media warnings on immigration in all sorts of ways, also liberals or leftists' those not necessarily given to statements against immigration, in a desperate effort to persuade voters to vote-remain have called for more restrictions on migration  - Chuka Umunna, Tom Watson and John McDonnell. The most recent addition to the list is Andy Burnham but only after the referendum result.

Immigration policy in an advanced capitalist state like Britain will ebbs and flow - it has always been this way though people do not perhaps remember the effect of the 1962 or the 1981 laws. There might well be restrictions (Leave in practice under Cameron-successor) but the alternative (Remain in practice-Cameron) was large numbers of EU migrants blocked from social support for 4 years. Hobson's choice as you rightly point out.

None of this is the fault of the non-racist part of the Leave or Remain voters.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 26, 2016)

If you are unable to articulate the effects of the ongoing 8 year financial crisis, it's much easier to blame foreigners.

Repeat after me, immigrants reduce wages, immigrants reduce wages...


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## Jeff Robinson (Jun 26, 2016)

A Polish friend posted this up on FB. It is one example, but there are a number of others of my news feed echoing this sentiment: 



> So yesterday I took a bus back home. On the bus one guy asked me if the seat next to me is free, as I had my camera bag on it, I quickly took it and said 'I'm sorry of course it is' when I said it he recognised that I'm not from here, as even though I've been living here for almost 10 years my accent is still quite strong, anyway what I heard next made me really upset - he said that I shouldn't be here as he voted 'leave' to get rid off polish people etc (there was a lot after that but I just tried to blank him) the sad thing was that the bus was full of people heard everything and not even one person reacted, even when he left the bus, not even one person said don't listen to this stupid drunk person or don't worry... ! It's really awful as I've been here so long and I've never in my life experienced such a behaviour it makes me question if this is the country where I want to spent the rest of my life ‪#‎Brexit‬


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## J Ed (Jun 26, 2016)




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## Jeff Robinson (Jun 26, 2016)

A UK citizen of Asian Hispanic dissent writes:



> ... right now I am looking at the country that I was born in, raised in and have dedicated (arguably even sacrificed) a lot of my life to, and it is a very scary place to be.



A Cypriot friend:



> 7 years in this country, first time I feel unwelcome.



A Dutch friend:



> Wat doe ik hier nog? ('What am I doing here?)



etc etc.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 26, 2016)

POSK London is the long running Polish centre in Hammersmith down the road from me. Apparently graffiti saying "go home", from tweets by others.


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## bi0boy (Jun 26, 2016)




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## keybored (Jun 26, 2016)




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## ska invita (Jun 26, 2016)

Theres a collection of all these being amassed by someone on facebook and complied as a photo alubm. I saw about 100 incidents in that last night


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 26, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Theres a collection of all these being amassed by someone on facebook and complied as a photo alubm. I saw about 100 incidents in that last night



I'll try & post the link. Depressing shit, it really is though.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 26, 2016)

Facebook

(that should work)


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## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Theres a collection of all these being amassed by someone on facebook and complied as a photo alubm. I saw about 100 incidents in that last night


There's a twitter feed as well.


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## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2016)

Would the same thing be happening if Remain won by the same  margin  ?


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## ska invita (Jun 26, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Would the same thing be happening if Remain won by the same  margin  ?


We can only guess. I dont think THIS would have happened though, no.


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## chilango (Jun 26, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Would the same thing be happening if Remain won by the same  margin  ?



Would the same thing be happening if there'd been no referendum at all?


----------



## ska invita (Jun 26, 2016)

Worth remembering the vast majority of incidents won't end up on twitter.

One of my many fears now is that when it becomes clear the Tories won't be closing borders or deporting people the racists will feel betrayed and become ripe pickings for a more organised far right, who as we speak, I am sure, are making plans.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 26, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Would the same thing be happening if Remain won by the same  margin  ?


I tend to think there would probably have been an increase whatever the referendum result, but obviously different in tone and content. But maybe I am just trying to comfort myself since I support leaving.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 26, 2016)

chilango said:


> Would the same thing be happening if there'd been no referendum at all?



Much of it certainly would, but it does seem from the nature of the taunting that has been reported that some of it pertains specifically to the referendum. Certainly that appears to be a perception amongst many EU residents themselves.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 26, 2016)

Of course its to do with the Referendum. Racists who voted Exit feel they won and that this is what they voted for: the right to do this.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 26, 2016)

For racist voters Take Our Country Back meant not repatriate power from the EU but white english people taking their country back from non white english people. Leave meant foreigners leaving.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 26, 2016)

ska invita said:


> For racist voters Take Our Country Back meant not repatriate power from the EU but white english people taking their country back from non white english people. Leave meant foreigners leaving.



Yep, my aunt in Havering voted leave to get our country back and stop all those asylum seekers...


----------



## ska invita (Jun 26, 2016)

The dual meaning of the language was no mistake either. CUNTS


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 26, 2016)

sihhi said:


> ...also liberals or leftists' those not necessarily given to statements against immigration, in a desperate effort to persuade voters to vote-remain have called for more restrictions on migration .



Aka "appeasement"


----------



## trashpony (Jun 26, 2016)

My friend's goddaughter just got 'black bastard' shouted at her. She's 3.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 26, 2016)

Just seen on London live that a polish cultural centre has been covered in 'f off home' grafitti. And some polish households in west london have recieved rascist leaflets.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 26, 2016)




----------



## J Ed (Jun 26, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


>




Seen a few National Action stickers around Walsall over the past six months or so and some 'MULTICULTURALISM IS WHITE GENOCIDE' in bus stops.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Just seen on London live that a polish cultural centre has been covered in 'f off home' grafitti.


Presumably the same incident FridgeMagnet mentioned in post 72


----------



## Numbers (Jun 26, 2016)

5 times I've been out and about locally since I got home on Friday night.  Only once have I not heard/seen something.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 26, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Just seen on London live that a polish cultural centre has been covered in 'f off home' grafitti. And some polish households in west london have recieved rascist leaflets.


Yeah, that was the POSK centre. The Polish community in Hammersmith has been well established since after ww2.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 26, 2016)

That polish cultural center in Hammersmith is the most important building for poles living in the UK, its like an embassy. Its a massive building, several floors, has been there for decades, has polish resteraunts, arts spaces, meeting rooms etc etc. If your a lonely and lost pole its the most obvious place to and make contacts....


----------



## ska invita (Jun 26, 2016)

As fm said...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 26, 2016)

This whole situation atm feels like one fuck off powder keg. Which far right group/s are going to light the touch paper.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 26, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> This whole situation atm feels like one fuck off powder keg. Which far right group/s are going to light the touch paper.



It reminds me of how things felt after Lee Rigby except ten times worse.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 26, 2016)

Vandalising the POSK is an attempt to say that nowhere is safe; no matter how respectable and long-standing you are, you're still foreigners, immigrants, interlopers. Though one thing I'm happy with about H&F is that that shit really does not play here, not without a fight.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 26, 2016)

Numbers said:


> 5 times I've been out and about locally since I got home on Friday night.  Only once have I not heard/seen something.


Fuck. 

I saw two men turning and staring at a woman in a niqab this morning. Have seen that before, but their lack of subtlety felt different. A bubbling aggression underneath it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> This whole situation atm feels like one fuck off powder keg. Which far right group/s are going to light the touch paper.


I think killing an MP might count as lighting the touch paper


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I think killing an MP might count as lighting the touch paper



But once the fools realise that their utopian dream of a white Britain is fruitless, & that nothing whatsoever changes regards to immigration policy. What we've seen over the last 48 hours is of concern, not that I'm saying racism didn't exist at this level pre-brexit, of course it did. But there seems to have been a worrying spike.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> But once the fools realise that their utopian dream of a white Britain is fruitless, & that nothing whatsoever changes regards to immigration policy. What we've seen over the last 48 hours is of concern, not that I'm saying racism didn't exist at this level pre-brexit, of course it did. But there seems to have been a worrying spike.


I think it's the general uncertainty which is leading to a relaxation of some social restrictions like not exposing yourself as a racist wanker in public.


----------



## catinthehat (Jun 26, 2016)

It's even more important to ensure those of us who are not racist wankers mentally rehearse our plans to stand with any one who is getting abuse of any kind and resolve to do this without exception both during and after incidents. In most cases it only takes one person to stand against this and other decent but unprepared people will follow.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 26, 2016)

tim said:


> She's even claimed that there are people posting on this site who pick on her. I really do hope that this is not true!



Look, I've apologised many times for calling her a "mewling, whiny privately-educated meatsack"! I'm not going to apologise again!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 26, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> But once the fools realise that their utopian dream of a white Britain is fruitless, & that nothing whatsoever changes regards to immigration policy. What we've seen over the last 48 hours is of concern, not that I'm saying racism didn't exist at this level pre-brexit, of course it did. But there seems to have been a worrying spike.



The fascists and the fuckwits feel empowered. *Their* "side" won the campaign, and now these arsewipes believe they have licence for their disgusting behaviour. If anybody is injured or dies because of this upsurge of overt racism, their blood is on the hands of every politician who attempted to make the referendum about "immigration". Every two-bob cunt from Umunna to Dunked-in Shit, to Farage.


----------



## gosub (Jun 26, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The fascists and the fuckwits feel empowered. *Their* "side" won the campaign, and now these arsewipes believe they have licence for their disgusting behaviour. If anybody is injured or dies because of this upsurge of overt racism, their blood is on the hands of every politician who attempted to make the referendum about "immigration". Every two-bob cunt from Umunna to Dunked-in Shit, to Farage.



But they don't have 17,000,000 behind them, as they will eventually realise. 

A mate posted this on facebook earlier: _Is not going to be enough to hate racism anymore. People must hate it and stand up against it where ever they hear it or see it. I cannot believe the bile and hatred shown in recent days. Racism is abhorrent and should be treated with severe disdain. Call it out. Protect your fellow women and men_

I think she might be right, til things normalise.


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 26, 2016)

gosub said:


> But they don't have 17,000,000 behind them, as they will eventually realise.
> 
> A mate posted this on facebook earlier: _Is not going to be enough to hate racism anymore. People must hate it and stand up against it where ever they hear it or see it. I cannot believe the bile and hatred shown in recent days. Racism is abhorrent and should be treated with severe disdain. Call it out. Protect your fellow women and men_
> 
> I think she might be right, til things normalise.


For those of you on facebook here is an album someone has been keeping to publicise some of this shit.


----------



## catinthehat (Jun 26, 2016)

gosub said:


> But they don't have 17,000,000 behind them, as they will eventually realise.
> 
> A mate posted this on facebook earlier: _Is not going to be enough to hate racism anymore. People must hate it and stand up against it where ever they hear it or see it. I cannot believe the bile and hatred shown in recent days. Racism is abhorrent and should be treated with severe disdain. Call it out. Protect your fellow women and men_
> 
> I think she might be right, til things normalise.


Always. It is not enough to be not a racist, it's important to be anti racist.


----------



## Maharani (Jun 26, 2016)

ska invita said:


> AS i said to some one on urban I remember the 80s...to which i was reassured ' we wont be going back to the 80s'.



Looks like Newcastle.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 26, 2016)

Maharani said:


> Looks like Newcastle.



It was. Great anti racist/fascist turnout though!


----------



## ska invita (Jun 26, 2016)

"Labour MP Jess Phillips announced on Twitter that she would be putting in a parliamentary question to find out the numbers of reported instances of racial hatred in the UK in the weekend following the Brexit vote, compared with last week."

though of course reported incidents will be a minuscule fraction it will be interesting to see the result of that anyway


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2016)

A few thoughts....I don't know why people are shocked that in this climate those with racist/bigoted views feel more empowered to speak out and air them.

Racism didn't go away, ever. Some people just became less confident in being openly racist/bigoted. Some bemoaned having to be 'politically correct'. Others just tailored their lives so they didn't have to 'mix' with anyone 'not their own' as much as possible.

I also think that people are more likely to report/share everyday instances of racism/bigotry at the moment because they have something tangible to attach it to/associate it with.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 26, 2016)

The referendum has legitimised racism and xenophobia. It's not just one bloke. He's got 17,000 people behind him


----------



## trashpony (Jun 26, 2016)

Oh another moment of joy today. Two elderly white women saying that they hope tefugees in Calais take to dinghies and drown. And laughing about it


----------



## ska invita (Jun 26, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> A few thoughts....I don't know why people are shocked that in this climate those with racist/bigoted views feel more empowered to speak out and air them.
> 
> Racism didn't go away, ever. Some people just became less confident in being openly racist/bigoted. Some bemoaned having to be 'politically correct'. Others just tailored their lives so they didn't have to 'mix' with anyone 'not their own' as much as possible.
> 
> I also think that people are more likely to report/share everyday instances of racism/bigotry at the moment because they have something tangible to attach it to/associate it with.


Of course these people were always there...whats happening still deserves focussing on though and is different...history doesnt stand still and there are all kinds of worrying possibilities of how it might go in the future.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2016)

I haven't said it doesn't need focusing on I am talking about people 'being shocked' that's it's happening. Two completely different points.


----------



## coley (Jun 26, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> They'll be thinking "all in good time".



And they'd be wrong, couple of months they will be lucky if they can find two.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Seen a few National Action stickers around Walsall over the past six months or so and some 'MULTICULTURALISM IS WHITE GENOCIDE' in bus stops.



yeh, we've a few NA in Brum and Walsall way (though seem not to have really appeared in the Black Country)


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 26, 2016)

I would suggest anyone without a Union Jack waistcoat stay off the streets after the footie finishes tomorrow evening, win or lose.


----------



## coley (Jun 26, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> This whole situation atm feels like one fuck off powder keg. Which far right group/s are going to light the touch paper.



They aren't, the fuckwits seem to think 17 million + support their stupidity! they will be disappointed in short order! the result has emboldened some of them to crawl out from under their stones, champion, gives the rest of us the chance to stomp on them! figuratively, not literally, violence only plays into the hands of the haters.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 26, 2016)

coley said:


> They aren't, the fuckwits seem to think 17 million + support their stupidity! they will be disappointed in short order! the result has emboldened some of them to crawl out from under their stones, champion, gives the rest of us the chance to stomp on them! figuratively, not literally, violence only plays into the hands of the haters.



That looks a tad optimistic in many parts of the country right now.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 26, 2016)

coley said:


> They aren't, the fuckwits seem to think 17 million + support their stupidity! they will be disappointed in short order! the result has emboldened some of them to crawl out from under their stones, champion, gives the rest of us the chance to stomp on them! figuratively, not literally, violence only plays into the hands of the haters.



I'd go for literally.


----------



## coley (Jun 26, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> That looks a tad optimistic in many parts of the country right now.



I have relatives who have had to put up with this Shyte for years, it's always the same arseholes, that they may feel 'emboldened' due to the result is no surprise, they will be put back in their box in short order, just don't make the mistake of assuming it's always "extreme right wing types" that are guilty of this Shyte.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 26, 2016)

coley said:


> I have relatives who have had to put up with this Shyte for years, it's always the same arseholes, that they may feel 'emboldened' due to the result is no surprise, they will be put back in their box in short order, just don't make the mistake of assuming it's always "extreme right wing types" that are guilty of this Shyte.


many incidences reported sound like older women on busses


----------



## coley (Jun 27, 2016)

8ball said:


> I'd go for literally.


Couple of tours in NI in the early 70s might have given you a different perspective, hate is a horribly corrosive  emotion, but easily comforting.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> Couple of tours in NI in the early 70s might have given you a different perspective, hate is a horribly corrosive  emotion, but easily comforting.



Oh, I don't advocate hate.  Just vermin control.


----------



## coley (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> many incidences reported sound like older women on busses


Our situation is bairns on bairns, no guessing when they learnt it from.


----------



## coley (Jun 27, 2016)

8ball said:


> Oh, I don't advocate hate.  Just vermin control.



Sounds the same from where I'm sitting.
 Isolate, ridicule and educate, but once you try violence the "vermin" have a nasty habit of biting and reproducing.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> Our situation is bairns on bairns, no guessing when they learnt it from.


Yeah i can imagine whats being acted out on the playgrounds....

btw theres a twitter hashtag #PostRefRacism 
this one is interesting and adds another dimension:


----------



## coley (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Yeah i can imagine whats being acted out on the playgrounds....
> 
> btw theres a twitter hashtag #PostRefRacism
> this one is interesting and adds another dimension:




Unforgivable, but let's not forget Sturgeons and as Salmonds gentle stirring of the nationalist debate ( bugger, sounds like I'm advocating another BBC cooking programme )
Looked at the site and one post stood out;
"BornChampion ‏@sud_lad
It's not that most people are racist. It's just the few racist bigots now think half the country agree with them. #PostRefRacism"


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 27, 2016)




----------



## 8ball (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> Sounds the same from where I'm sitting.
> Isolate, ridicule and educate, but once you try violence the "vermin" have a nasty habit of biting and reproducing.



Isolating and ridiculing had no effect, and educating will be a limited option.

I'm not talking about your random fuckwits, who may be amenable once isolated, but the hardcore fash that are trying to rally them need dealing with and fast.
The best way to 'educate' a neo-Nazi is with a pick axe handle.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> Unforgivable, but let's not forget Sturgeons and as Salmonds gentle stirring of the nationalist debate ( bugger, sounds like I'm advocating another BBC cooking programme )


Wales voted Leave (unlike Scotland and NI) and UKIP won seats in the Welsh Assembly for the first time this year... I think the nationalism is coming more from Wales than from Scotland IYSWIM


----------



## coley (Jun 27, 2016)

8ball said:


> Isolating and ridiculing had no effect, and educating will be a limited option.
> 
> I'm not talking about your random fuckwits, who may be amenable once isolated, but the hardcore fash that are trying to rally them need dealing with and fast.
> The best way to 'educate' a neo-Nazi is with a pick axe handle.


Just have a long hard look at what you are advocating, you silly sod, 
And that's me being polite.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> Just have a long hard look at what you are advocating, you silly sod,
> And that's me being polite.



Whatevs, Nevs.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> Just have a long hard look at what you are advocating, you silly sod,
> And that's me being polite.



If achieving social harmony was as simple as singing "Kumbaya" then it would have happened already!


----------



## coley (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Wales voted Leave (unlike Scotland and NI) and UKIP won seats in the Welsh Assembly for the first time this year... I think the nationalism is coming more from Wales than from Scotland IYSWIM


I don't think its a nationalism issue as such, just people feeling they have been abandoned by the political process, the Wales vote could have been deeply influenced by the Port Talbot steel issue, though that will now be sidelined by fears that the banksters will be losing their jobs, I will not sleep tonight


----------



## coley (Jun 27, 2016)

NoXion said:


> If achieving social harmony was as simple as singing "Kumbaya" then it would have happened already!


Aye whey, if those wanting violent and bloody solutions to the current oppression of the WC have first hand experience of the effects, let them speak, I get bliddy sick of the armchair revolutionaries often found on here.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye whey, if those wanting violent and bloody solutions to the current oppression of the WC have first hand experience of the effects, let them speak, I get bliddy sick of the armchair revolutionaries often found on here.



Have you been reading any of the posts on this thread?


----------



## NoXion (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye whey, if those wanting violent and bloody solutions to the current oppression of the WC have first hand experience of the effects, let them speak, I get a bliddy sick of the armchair revolutionaries often found on here.



The ruling classes aren't going to concede to us anything if all we do is just ask them nicely. Whining about "armchair revolutionaries" ain't gonna change that.


----------



## coley (Jun 27, 2016)

8ball said:


> Have you been reading any of the posts on this thread?


Some, but not most.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye whey, if those wanting violent and bloody solutions to the current oppression of the WC have first hand experience of the effects, let them speak, I get bliddy sick of the armchair revolutionaries often found on here.



Innit.  Nobody who's experienced a violent revolution would ever advocate one.


----------



## coley (Jun 27, 2016)

NoXion said:


> The ruling classes aren't going to concede to us anything if all we do is just ask them nicely. Whining about "armchair revolutionaries" ain't gonna change that.



News for you, that's all we have here in the UK, most are comfortable with what they have, armed revolution? hanging the rich from lampposts? Yet the PLP is obsessed with ousting the first ( nearly )socialist leader it has had in decades.
Get real, even the unions ( forlorn laughter) won't risk upsetting the status quo, one day strikes!FFS!


----------



## NoXion (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> News for you, that's all we have here in the UK, most are comfortable with what they have, armed revolution? hanging the rich from lampposts? Yet the PLP is obsessed with ousting the first ( nearly )socialist leader it has had in decades.
> Get real, even the unions ( forlorn laughter) won't risk upsetting the status quo, one day strikes!FFS!



The majority of people right now might not be uncomfortable enough to make a real go of changing the status quo, but given that the direction of things since the 1970s has been a slow but steady erosion of the post-war consensus (which was established in the first place out of the ruling classes' fear of the masses), do you really think that will always be the case?


----------



## coley (Jun 27, 2016)

NoXion said:


> The majority of people right now might not be uncomfortable enough to make a real go of changing the status quo, but given that the direction of things since the 1970s has been a slow but steady erosion of the post-war consensus (which was established in the first place out of the ruling classes' fear of the masses), do you really think that will always be the case?


No, but I think that the ruling elite is clever enough to give us just enough bread and circuses to keep the majority quiescent.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> No, but I think that the ruling elite is clever enough to give us just enough bread and circuses to keep the majority quiescent.


I think this reff result says otherwise. They forgot the bread.


----------



## coley (Jun 27, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I think this reff result says otherwise. They forgot the bread.


The political circuses will be enough to distract most for the time being.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> No, but I think that the ruling elite is clever enough to give us just enough bread and circuses to keep the majority quiescent.



Nope, the contradictory yet insatiable demands of capital will pretty much ensure that they will have to squeeze as much short-term benefit as they can at the expense of what is sensible and sustainable in the long term. Which means that any bread and circuses that are given out will get taken back eventually.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

The first people to die in revolutions are _always _the revolutionaries.  And I do mean _always.  _That in itself ought to be enough to dissuade the armchair enthusiasts, but it seems that folly springs anew with each generation.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> The political circuses will be enough to distract most for the time being.



This one was something of a cock-up on that front - the political circus was stirring the pot rather than working as a distraction.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Nope, the contradictory yet insatiable demands of capital will pretty much ensure that they will have to squeeze as much short-term benefit as they can at the expense of what is sensible and sustainable in the long term.



That "pretty much" is a nice touch.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> That "pretty much" is a nice touch.



Did you have an actual point to make?


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Did you have an actual point to make?



Just that the qualification undermined the confidence with which you stated your main point.  Tbh I wish you were right.  But here's the problem with yer bloody revolutions:


----------



## coley (Jun 27, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Nope, the contradictory yet insatiable demands of capital will pretty much ensure that they will have to squeeze as much short-term benefit as they can at the expense of what is sensible and sustainable in the long term. Which means that any bread and circuses that are given out will get taken back eventually.



"Eventually" that is the key word, most doing the squeezing will have retired comfortably by the time the penny drops, and they will then be replaced by the next bunch of short sighted bastards who will be hopefully thinking they can survive before the brown stuff hits the extraction equipment, kicking the can down the road!
They all do it, and keeping our rage and anger within limits is the supreme test of your average politician, rather than look for solutions to social ills.
But violence on the streets is no answer, a political movement that will bring the current order to a standstill is much more effective, how to achieve that? Haven't a clue.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Just that the qualification undermined the confidence with which you stated your main point.  Tbh I wish you were right.  But here's the problem with yer bloody revolutions:


a point made by a counter-revolutionary who suspiciously remained healthy while the terror ate his mates  a grass?

lol, keep on truckin phil, I'm off to watch cartoons and dream of the barricades


----------



## NoXion (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Just that the qualification undermined the confidence with which you stated your main point.  Tbh I wish you were right.  But here's the problem with yer bloody revolutions:



Cavemen will eat unicorns?

Consider it an acknowledgement that I'm not omniscient. In any case, care to name any substantive social change that wasn't accompanied by conflict of some kind?




coley said:


> "Eventually" that is the key word, most doing the squeezing will have retired comfortably by the time the penny drops, and they will then be replaced by the next bunch of short sighted bastards who will be hopefully thinking they can survive before the brown stuff hits the extraction equipment, kicking the can down the road!
> They all do it, and keeping our rage and anger within limits is the supreme test of your average politician, rather than look for solutions to social ills.
> But violence on the streets is no answer, a political movement that will bring the current order to a standstill is much more effective, how to achieve that? Haven't a clue.



So when this hypothetical political movement manages to "bring the current order to a standstill", what precisely do you think that the reaction of the "current order" will be? Do you think that they will meekly stand aside and allow said political movement to forge a new society? Or will they instead attempt to violently assert their authority?


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 27, 2016)

I won't be around to see it, but from my armchair I salute my prole brothers and sisters who'll not be very nice to those members of  the ruling class who resist the creation of a new society, and also not be very nice to those traitors who support and defend them.


----------



## Lurdan (Jun 27, 2016)

This picture, taken at an Armed Forces Day parade in Romford on Saturday, has been circulating a fair bit.






There's an interesting blog post here by the guy that took it.
diamond geezer



> One of the official civic party, a tall balding gentleman in a grey suit, stopped to chat to the t-shirt wearer. Not only did they seem to get on well, but the dignitary smiled and put his arm around the man's shoulder before moving on.


----------



## dessiato (Jun 27, 2016)

Lurdan said:


> This picture, taken at an Armed Forces Day parade in Romford on Saturday, has been circulating a fair bit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice. He makes good points.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> The first people to die in revolutions are _always _the revolutionaries.  And I do mean _always_.


Tell that to the Swiss guards not to mention e.g. the Romanovs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Just that the qualification undermined the confidence with which you stated your main point.  Tbh I wish you were right.  But here's the problem with yer bloody revolutions:


Perhaps you should be mentioning this to people like farage and johnson.


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2016)

Wonder how many here _have_ experienced revolution?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

chilango said:


> Wonder how many here _have_ experienced revolution?


Everyone except Phil will over the coming weeks and months.


----------



## rutabowa (Jun 27, 2016)

sihhi said:


> None of this is the fault of the non-racist part of the Leave or Remain voters.


No you're right it's not... it would be good if all the leaders of the remain campaign could come out and unequivocally condemn it though.

edit: i meant to say "leaders of the leave campaign"! tho both really.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 27, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> No you're right it's not... it would be good if all the leaders of the remain campaign could come out and unequivocally condemn it though.



It seems to be being ignored by everyone, the only MPs I have heard say anything about it are Jess Phillips and Warsi


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> a point made by a counter-revolutionary who suspiciously remained healthy while the terror ate his mates  a grass?



It was Danton, n'est-ce pas?  Not sure how you can call him a counter-revolutionary, and he certainly didn't remain healthy.

Or do you have another source?


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

chilango said:


> Wonder how many here _have_ experienced revolution?



If they had, they wouldn't be here.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Cavemen will eat unicorns?



It's Saturn devouring his children.  Often used to illustrate Danton's famous dictum about revolutions. 



NoXion said:


> Consider it an acknowledgement that I'm not omniscient. In any case, care to name any substantive social change that wasn't accompanied by conflict of some kind?



Well, even getting out of bed in the morning is "accompanied by conflict of some kind."  But there have been plenty of substantive social changes that haven't involved* armed* conflict.

In sharp contrast, there has never been a violent revolution that didn't descend rapidly into tyranny--with the single exception of the American.



NoXion said:


> So when this hypothetical political movement manages to "bring the current order to a standstill", what precisely do you think that the reaction of the "current order" will be? Do you think that they will meekly stand aside and allow said political movement to forge a new society? Or will they instead attempt to violently assert their authority?



Who is "they?"  I don't think there is a "ruling class" any more.  I think it's a pure conflict of capital versus labor, no classes involved.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Tell that to the Swiss guards not to mention e.g. the Romanovs.



Tell it to the Bolsheviks.  How many Old Boshies were still around by 1940?  If the civil war didn't get them, the purges did.  Same with the _citoyens _of France--they either got a republican haircut or ended as Napoleonic cannon-fodder.


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Tell it to the Bolsheviks.  How many Old Boshies were still around by 1940?  If the civil war didn't get them, the purges did.  Same with the _citoyens _of France--they either got a republican haircut or ended as Napoleonic cannon-fodder.


1940 is a long time after 1917. The Russian Revolution must have been considerably less bloody than I'd been led to believe.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

CNT36 said:


> 1940 is a long time after 1917. The Russian Revolution must have been considerably less bloody than I'd been led to believe.



I was being generous.  Few of the original revolutionaries made it past 1920.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 27, 2016)

8ball said:


> The best way to 'educate' a neo-Nazi is with a pick axe handle.



Please elaborate how this would help?


----------



## Libertad (Jun 27, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Please elaborate how this would help?



The only good fascist is a dead fascist.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 27, 2016)

Libertad said:


> The only good fascist is a dead fascist.



Have you killed any, yourself? There does seem to be quite a few about. If so, how did you kill them? Was a pick axe involved or a magic wand?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 27, 2016)

Police investigate 'racist' graffiti on building in Hammersmith


----------



## Libertad (Jun 27, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Have you killed any, yourself? There does seem to be quite a few about. If so, how did you kill them? Was a pick axe involved or a magic wand?



I've maimed a few in my time but I'm willing to up my game.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Tell it to the Bolsheviks.  How many Old Boshies were still around by 1940?  If the civil war didn't get them, the purges did.  Same with the _citoyens _of France--they either got a republican haircut or ended as Napoleonic cannon-fodder.


By 1940 the Romanovs had been in quicklime for 22 years.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 27, 2016)

You have to laugh.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Tell it to the Bolsheviks.  How many Old Boshies were still around by 1940?  If the civil war didn't get them, the purges did.  Same with the _citoyens _of France--they either got a republican haircut or ended as Napoleonic cannon-fodder.



Fresh cadres more than happy to take their place. But it's also the ones you've never heard of. Lower class, never left a record of their lives except in interrogation, probably weren't literate or had little education. Shot in batches in a wood somewhere after their names appeared in a portfolio signed off by a lower-level bureaucrat in Moscow, because the NKVD tops couldn't be arsed to have a look that afternoon, too busy drinking or fucking. The pit they fell into filled in and forgotten about for decades. Repeat a few hundred times.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Fresh cadres more than happy to take their place. But it's also the ones you've never heard of. Lower class, never left a record of their lives except in interrogation, probably weren't literate or had little education. Shot in batches in a wood somewhere after their names appeared in a portfolio signed off by a lower-level bureaucrat in Moscow, because the NKVD tops couldn't be arsed to have a look that afternoon, too busy drinking or fucking. The pit they fell into filled in and forgotten about for decades. Repeat a few hundred times.



Exactamundo.

The question raised thereby being: is the devouring of children the _necessary_ outcome of violent revolution?  Or merely the _universal_ one?

No that it makes any difference in terms of practical politics, but it's intriguing theoretically.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 27, 2016)

You're just doing your boredom induced piss-taking anyway, but NoXion  and DotCommunist are still right. Pacifism is for those who haven't been slapped yet.  And with such things as massive privilege and power at stake, you're getting wiped out if you pose a threat to those at the top of society.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2016)

gosub said:


> But they don't have 17,000,000 behind them, as they will eventually realise.



The key word being "eventually".



> A mate posted this on facebook earlier: _Is not going to be enough to hate racism anymore. People must hate it and stand up against it where ever they hear it or see it. I cannot believe the bile and hatred shown in recent days. Racism is abhorrent and should be treated with severe disdain. Call it out. Protect your fellow women and men_
> 
> I think she might be right, til things normalise.



No "might" about it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> It was Danton, n'est-ce pas?  Not sure how you can call him a counter-revolutionary, and he certainly didn't remain healthy.
> 
> Or do you have another source?


Jacques Mallet du Pan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> He is known for coining the adage “the Revolution devours its children,”[1] which originally appeared as "A l'exemple de Saturne, la révolution dévore ses enfants" in his widely circulated 1793 essay _Considérations sur la nature de la Révolution de France, et sur les causes qui en prolongent la durée_.[2][3] Translated into English at the time, the essay is known to have been read by and influenced William Pitt's views.[2]


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2016)

coley said:


> They aren't, the fuckwits seem to think 17 million + support their stupidity! they will be disappointed in short order! the result has emboldened some of them to crawl out from under their stones, champion, gives the rest of us the chance to stomp on them! figuratively, not literally, violence only plays into the hands of the haters.



I think you've missed a very important point, which is that *while* "the fuckwits" feel empowered, they're going to cause trouble - trouble that will fester for far longer than the racists feel empowered for.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> Jacques Mallet du Pan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



_Touche!_

" Best Answer:  It goes: The revolution like Saturn devours its own children. I believe it was a common saying during the French Revolution (1789) and that it was most famously uttered by *Danton* during his trial."

What does the adage "revolutions at times devour their own children"?


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> And with such things as massive privilege and power at stake, you're getting wiped out if you pose a threat to those at the top of society.



That's an argument _against _violent revolution.  Do you have any in favor?


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> That's an argument _against _violent revolution.  Do you have any in favor?



I didn't think I needed to spell it out for a prof.  In such a struggle you find a position, a violent one. Kill the fuckers.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> In such a struggle you find a position, a violent one. Kill the fuckers.



Except that, as you just said, they kill you first.

And even if they don't: (a) you discredit your cause by drowning it in blood, and (b) your local Napoleon/Stalin figure then kills you.

That's what history proves.  The only question is whether this is inevitable or only invariable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Except that, as you just said, they kill you first.
> 
> And even if they don't: (a) you discredit your cause by drowning it in blood, and (b) your local Napoleon/Stalin figure then kills you.
> 
> That's what history proves.  The only question is whether this is inevitable or only invariable.


Anyone can see you're not a historian


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 27, 2016)

A friend of mine says the Turkish and Spanish cafes on his Street have had their  windows smashed in overnight. 
This is Honor Oak Park the borough  of Lewisham, where 70% voted Remain.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 27, 2016)

Not heard about that- will ask around now


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 27, 2016)

I was talking about it in the context of foolish non-violent approaches.

I'm not talking about it gleefully, aware that I am safe and will probably never be in such a serious set of circumstances, but it's daft to think that significant social change involving a complete overhaul of how society is organised is not going to be met with a violent reaction by those invested in keeping their dominant positions in the current order. History has shown that it isn't without bloodshed.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 27, 2016)

Anyway, this is off-topic.  The prof can pretend to want a serious discussion elsewhere?


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 27, 2016)

My wife was in tears on Sunday after seeing those anti Poiish cards that had been put out around that school, reminded her of cunts saying similar things to her when she was a child in the 70s/early 80s. 

How do we fight back against this?  I'm a mixture of deep sorrow, and fucking fury at the moment, and I'm really not sure what the best way forward is.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> A friend of mine says the Turkish and Spanish cafes on his Street have had their  windows smashed in overnight.
> This is Honor Oak Park the borough  of Lewisham, where 70% voted Remain.


There aren't any Spanish or Turkish cafs there, just normal cafes, but yes run by non white English people. This is fucked up.

Nothing on SE23.com yet...will keep an eye


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> There aren't any Spanish or Turkish cafs there, just normal cafes, but yes run by non white English people. This is fucked up.
> 
> Nothing on SE23.com yet...will keep an eye


Yes there are


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 27, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> ska invita
> View attachment 88920


fuck


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> ska invita
> View attachment 88920


I know the guy who runs that place...he's white and english..not that it makes a difference (its a tapas restaurant hence my confusion)


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

Any info about the other one Orang Utan ? Big Plate? Honor Oak Cafe?


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

ohmyliver said:


> My wife was in tears on Sunday after seeing those anti Poiish cards that had been put out around that school, reminded her of cunts saying similar things to her when she was a child in the 70s/early 80s.
> 
> How do we fight back against this?  I'm a mixture of deep sorrow, and fucking fury at the moment, and I'm really not sure what the best way forward is.


feel identically, as your wife and as you. Not sure really what can be done at the moment. Theres some kind of demo in Trafalgar Square tomorrow with a bent that migrants are not the problem, and it will be well attended, but as with most demos im glad people do it just wont go myself as it doesnt really make much of a difference.

A fair few incidents in the borough of lewisham in this thread alone...ive lived there fore 20 years and i  know there are a lot of people who wont take this sitting down. at the moment its hit and runs, but if anyone tried anything more front-facing its going to kick off. Battle of Lewisham pt2?  Back in time we go......

I wonder whats going on in schools today?
I expect there'll be a stream of stories come home time


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 27, 2016)

for fucks sake


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Any info about the other one Orang Utan ? Big Plate? Honor Oak Cafe?


Dunno, but Hattush is just around the corner


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Dunno, but Hattush is just around the corner


Ah right yeah (also a restaurant which is why i didnt think of it)


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Ah right yeah (also a restaurant which is why i didnt think of it)


Cafe/restaurant/bistro/eatery -  wevs


----------



## NoXion (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> It's Saturn devouring his children.  Often used to illustrate Danton's famous dictum about revolutions.



Nobody said revolutions had to be _nice_. An organised group of people seeking to change society might not seek out violence themselves, but if they meet with any significant degree of success they may well find that others will seek out violence against *them*.



> Well, even getting out of bed in the morning is "accompanied by conflict of some kind."  But there have been plenty of substantive social changes that haven't involved* armed* conflict.
> 
> In sharp contrast, there has never been a violent revolution that didn't descend rapidly into tyranny--with the single exception of the American.



Facile comparison. Conflicts internal to the individual tend not to be violent because most people don't see the point of fighting oneself. Societal conflicts involve violence because there is a section of society that accrues wealth and power from the status quo, and such people can go to considerable lengths to protect their position.

The close temporal proximity of (civil) wars are what make fertile ground for tyranny; the French Revolution with other European powers and the Russian Revolution with other internal factions, some backed by outside powers. The Americans were lucky enough to have a civil war some time after their revolution.



> Who is "they?"  I don't think there is a "ruling class" any more.  I think it's a pure conflict of capital versus labor, no classes involved.



Capital and labour don't effect the world on their own. They effect the world because people do things. Whether those people are working or ruling class is dependent on their relationship with capital and labour as a whole. This is basic fucking Marxism, but I suppose that's too difficult an idea for an inveterate idealist like you to fathom.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Capital and labour don't effect the world on their own. They effect the world because people do things. Whether those people are working or ruling class is dependent on their relationship with capital and labour as a whole.



Agreed.  And what is people's relation to capital and labor today?

First of all, virtually everybody works for a wage--even the very rich--and thus meets Marx's definition of a proletarian.

Next, virtually everybody receives some income in the form of interest on investments--pension plan, saving account, mortgage etc--and thus meets Marx's definition of a bourgeois.

So virtually everybody today simultaneously occupies the position of proletarian and bourgeois.  The real, logical contradiction is not between social classes, but between labor and its alienated form, which is capital.  That contradiction has become _internalized_ today, along with the ideologies to which its respective poles correspond.

Quite apart from their invariably disastrous practical consequences, that is the real reason why revolutionary politics have no purchase in today's Western world.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Agreed.  And what is people's relation to capital and labor today?
> 
> First of all, virtually everybody works for a wage--even the very rich--and thus meets Marx's definition of a proletarian.
> 
> Next, virtually everybody receives some income in the form of interest on investments--pension plan, saving account, mortgage etc--and thus meets Marx's definition of a bourgeois.



You have to work to get a pension that you can actually live on, and the vast majority of people can't live off their savings accounts.



> So virtually everybody today simultaneously occupies the position of proletarian and bourgeois.



So therefore this is unmitigated bollocks.


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Next, virtually everybody receives some income in the form of interest on investments--pension plan, saving account, mortgage etc--and thus meets Marx's definition of a bourgeois.



Do they?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Agreed.  And what is people's relation to capital and labor today?
> 
> First of all, virtually everybody works for a wage--even the very rich--and thus meets Marx's definition of a proletarian.
> 
> ...


Mortgages are almost always money paid out to banks not money paid to an individual.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

NoXion said:


> You have to work to get a pension that you can actually live on, and the vast majority of people can't live off their savings accounts.



I didn't say you could.

Marx is absolutely clear on this: a proletarian works for a wage; a bourgeois lives off capital investments.  Therefore, almost everyone today fits both categories.

The situation was very different when Marx wrote--at that time, capital and labor really were incarnated in two obviously, visibly different social classes.  But even then, Marx never speaks of a "contradiction" between classes, for that would have been nonsensical.  The contradiction is between labor and its alienated form.  Anyone who sincerely seeks the downfall of capitalism needs to accept that.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

chilango said:


> Do they?



They do.

This has nothing to do with questions of wealth.  A proletarian can easily be richer than a bourgeois.


----------



## TruXta (Jun 27, 2016)

Make money off a savings account? You're having a laugh.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

can this derail go on another thread?


----------



## NoXion (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> I didn't say you could.
> 
> Marx is absolutely clear on this: a proletarian works for a wage; a bourgeois lives off capital investments.  Therefore, almost everyone today fits both categories.



No, a proletarian _lives_ off a wage. Most people who work for a living need to do so in order to live. Therefore they are proletarian, no matter what investments, savings accounts or other financial frippery that they might have, which they can't actually live off.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

TruXta said:


> Make money off a savings account? You're having a laugh.



Once again, it doesn't matter how much.  What matters is the position one occupies in relation to the means of production.  Even the tiniest capital income puts one on the side of capital; even the largest wage keeps one on the side of labor.  So today, virtually everyone occupies both positions simultaneously.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

NoXion said:


> No, a proletarian _lives_ off a wage. Most people who work for a living need to do so in order to live. Therefore they are proletarian, no matter what investments, savings accounts or other financial frippery that they might have, which they can't actually live off.



No, a proletarian _receives _a wage.  It doesn't matter how much.  Anyone who receives a wage is a proletarian in Marxist terms.  That means that, for example, David Cameron is technically a proletarian.  He is also a bourgeois, needless to say.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 27, 2016)

Fuck off to another thread


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 27, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> You're just doing your boredom induced piss-taking anyway, but NoXion  and DotCommunist are still right. *Pacifism is for those who haven't been slapped yet. * And with such things as massive privilege and power at stake, you're getting wiped out if you pose a threat to those at the top of society.



Or just maybe, pacifism is for those who have been slapped. More than once, and despise the violence.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer  please stop the derail. As ska invita asked, please take it to another thread.


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> can this derail go on another thread?


Fourthed.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

ohmyliver said:


> Fourthed.



Fifthed.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 27, 2016)

This happened to a friend:
 
And another friend, who is a mixed race Londoner, got asked in a pub if she was English at the weekend. 
Minor incidents compared to other stuff I've read about, but it feels like only a matter of time before a friend or family member gets racially abused in the street. I am scared for them.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 27, 2016)

A "mate" on FB, posted the other day that it was a "brilliant result" and it "Hasn't done Norway and Switzerland any harm.
This island is sinking ... No more !"

But he's been singing Nigel's praises for the last few years, so it's not a huge surprise.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 27, 2016)

if you want to make his brain hurt point out that both country have no way of limiting migration from the EU


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 27, 2016)

This seems unusually sinister. . . the number he didn't recognise I mean.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 27, 2016)

Oh, I'm sure there's plenty of people being told to fuck off out of the country. Whether they voted stay or leave...


----------



## purenarcotic (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> feel identically, as your wife and as you. Not sure really what can be done at the moment. Theres some kind of demo in Trafalgar Square tomorrow with a bent that migrants are not the problem, and it will be well attended, but as with most demos im glad people do it just wont go myself as it doesnt really make much of a difference.
> 
> A fair few incidents in the borough of lewisham in this thread alone...ive lived there fore 20 years and i  know there are a lot of people who wont take this sitting down. at the moment its hit and runs, but if anyone tried anything more front-facing its going to kick off. Battle of Lewisham pt2?  Back in time we go......
> 
> ...



It's not much but from friends who have experienced racial abuse one of the things they tell me is that nobody ever says anything - maybe when the person walks away people ask them if they are okay but it's not challenged there and then. If confronted with it I say something anyway but I will say it louder. I don't want that shit in my community, I refuse to be the silent bystander.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 27, 2016)

To counter all the hateful shit being flung about, the Welsh Polish Association in Llanelli found this posted to their door:


----------



## ddraig (Jun 27, 2016)

my home town doing something decent shocker!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Is this what BAME people have to look forward to post-Brexit?



He isn't just anyone though. He's in the North East Infidels.


----------



## treelover (Jun 27, 2016)

Is this new? social media comments, I have been amazed by some of the comments on YT, etc, and the non banning, etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Oh, I'm sure there's plenty of people being told to fuck off out of the country. Whether they voted stay or leave...


Sadly the wrong people: should be people like farage, johnson, gove, cameron, stuart, farron


----------



## ddraig (Jun 27, 2016)

treelover said:


> Is this new? social media comments, I have been amazed by some of the comments on YT, etc, and the non banning, etc.


no not new at all, been going on years


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jun 27, 2016)

Not too many comments yet, but fucking hell it's depressing: Cheshire Police say hate crime won't be tolerated - after apparent rise following EU referendum


----------



## Numbers (Jun 27, 2016)

Same pub I mentioned y/day, when walking by today after getting off the bus they were asking an elderly Muslim man when he was leaving, not so politely mind.  I stopped and pulled them up on it, and with my (diluted but as thick as I could muster) Irish accent asked them why not show the same aggression to me, they didn't, said they were only having a laugh, then I displayed a bit of aggressive blue language back towards them and they displayed the cowardly bollox these type of individual do when confronted by someone not intimidated by them.

I was shitting myself tho'.   Wankers.


----------



## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 27, 2016)

Awh makes me proud to be Welsh. Not. Disgraceful morons. 

Evey


----------



## plurker (Jun 27, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> Not too many comments yet, but fucking hell it's depressing: Cheshire Police say hate crime won't be tolerated - after apparent rise following EU referendum



The four comments are telling enough


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 27, 2016)

aye depressing read,


if this starts to bite finically this shit is going to get worse..


----------



## ddraig (Jun 27, 2016)

when not if


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 27, 2016)

English born friend of Chinese heritage found her car had been vandalised with paint stripper while parked outside her flat over the weekend, London Borough of Greenwich, she has been insulted verbally before on her estate but feels this is an escalation because of the Brexit vote.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 27, 2016)

It's the Brexit Norman Lamont moment, a price worth paying.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

ddraig said:


> when not if


Global financial crisis pt2 is still to happen of course so that's something to look forward to.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> English born friend of Chinese heritage found her car had been vandalised with paint stripper while parked outside her flat over the weekend, London Borough of Greenwich, she has been insulted verbally before on her estate but feels this is an escalation because of the Brexit vote.


This one has upset me particularly for some reason.
I hope she has some friends around for support amongst her neighbours.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Global financial crisis pt2 is still to happen of course so that's something to look forward to.


pt1 never stopped, Brexit is a part of the financial crisis, social contract (Thatcher's version) broken, Thatcher's people angry...fin crisis still going on...£250bn in QE other day..


----------



## treelover (Jun 27, 2016)

People on social media are saying that the graffiti sprayed on the front doors of the Polish Club in Hammersmith was 'F*** you OMP' and most likely directed at the Polish-based Centre for Political Thought, 'an independent think-tank promoting individual freedom and responsibility, the free market, liberal democracy, the rule of law, and the idea of a limited state'. Its Polish acronym is OMP.  Anyone know anymore about this, nonsense?

What would a cultural centre have to do with the OMP?


----------



## CRI (Jun 27, 2016)

treelover said:


> People on social media are saying that the graffiti sprayed on the front doors of the Polish Club in Hammersmith was 'F*** you OMP' and most likely directed at the Polish-based Centre for Political Thought, 'an independent think-tank promoting individual freedom and responsibility, the free market, liberal democracy, the rule of law, and the idea of a limited state'. Its Polish acronym is OMP.  Anyone know anymore about this, nonsense?
> 
> What would a cultural centre have to do with the OMP?


Sounds like bullshit


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> This one has upset me particularly for some reason.
> I hope she has some friends around for support amongst her neighbours.


thank you for your concern, i am not sure about the neighbours but she is quite empowered and will be OK, she works with my other half who is also good in adversity....tbh the police have been fucking useless despite having a good idea who the knuckle draggers in question are so it's just as well really.


----------



## T & P (Jun 27, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> aye depressing read,
> 
> 
> if this starts to bite finically this shit is going to get worse..


Already in motion. Britain has just lost its AAA rating...

Ratings agencies downgrade UK credit rating after Brexit vote - BBC News


----------



## CRI (Jun 27, 2016)

Someone started collecting racist posts on social media yesterday, then when these mushroomed, started a Facebook Group for people to post things directly to.  (Evening Standard story here)  There are now hundreds of first hand stories and observations of racist and xenophobic abuse and they're fucking scary and infuriating. 

-  Perpetrators seem to be men, women and children, all ages, all "social strata" and reports are from all over - both remain and leave areas. 
-  Victims also seem varied - folks thought to be EU nationals, any BAME people, but also tourists and white Americans, Canadians, Australians, etc.
-  Encounters seem quite random - strangers accosting people on the bus, in the street, in shops.
-  In most incidents that were witnessed by other people, the other people stood by and did nowt 
-  Many say they've had few or no previous problems with abuse.  Some say it's escalated during the run up to the vote, but most say it really hit the fan since Friday.
-  Some are reporting a parallel increase in other forms of hate crime - e.g. homophobia, harassment of disabled people, anti-semitism, etc. around the same time frame.

It's pretty clear the campaign messages, the result and probably the disappointment of being "sold a pup" has emboldened bigots to turn their thoughts into action. 

There are still plenty of apologists on social media trying to deny and play down the claims.  Some are whining that the negative stereotypes about older and working class voters is just as bad, or trying to make it all about them #NotAllOldPeople  #NotAllWorkingClassPeople   Even well-meaning folks who keep responding to stories with, "But, they're just a minority" or "some of us DO want you here," etc. are still making it about them.  It just minimises the other person's experience.  It needs to stop.

For anyone who can't be arsed to do the linkies, here's a few.  I'm feeling really sick.  I know folk didn't become bigots overnight, but their speed in coming out of the closet is still damned shocking.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> pt1 never stopped, Brexit is a part of the financial crisis, social contract (Thatcher's version) broken, Thatcher's people angry...fin crisis still going on...£250bn in QE other day..


sure, of course part 1 is still very much in play, but when a couple more banks fall itll be part two for all intents and purposes


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> thank you for your concern, i am not sure about the neighbours but she is quite empowered and will be OK, she works with my other half who is also good in adversity....tbh the police have been fucking useless despite having a good idea who the knuckle draggers in question are so it's just as well really.


Theres a great film (based on a great book) called Sour Sweet about a Chinese family moving to south east london in the 80s and the shit they go through.  Things were bad then but i feel real progress has been made over the years (EU liberalism or not). It makes me livid to think were going back towards that time.

Anyhow a great London film worth watching.

Glad to hear she is 'empowered'. Sounds like a tough sort - though no one is that tough that this doesn't hurt and hurt deep.

Trying to check my anger against the racists too - theyre victims of a sort in this shit too - but patience is thin right now.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2016)

CRI said:


> I know folk didn't become bigots overnight, but their speed in coming out of the closet is still damned shocking]


Ive been thinking about this - maybe in a way they did, come out overnight.
You can have a relatively peaceful dog and give it a sniff of blood and whip it up into a frenzy and itll go and bite someone.
The Exit campaign has done just that (plus of course months more in the racist newspapers as warm up).
Many of us are frustrated, and humans are manipulable - our frustration can been channeled by others in all kinds of ways. Thats the danger of a situation like the one we're in.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Ive been thinking about this - maybe in a way they did, come out overnight.


 
as i said in one of the pre-referendum threads on here, i've been noticing the closet racists getting less closeted over the last few weeks.  with the shite that some bits of the 'leave' campaign and the press were coming out with, it's hardly surprising.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 27, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Ive been thinking about this - maybe in a way they did, come out overnight.
> .


Not sure about that. Depressingly they have never gone away, they've just learned to keep quiet. John Barnes said that about racists at football. But them knowing to keep quiet is itself a victory.


----------



## coley (Jun 28, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> if you want to make his brain hurt point out that both country have no way of limiting migration from the EU


Hasn't Switzerland recently had a referendum on free movement and voted to restrict it? To the annoyance of the EU?


----------



## ska invita (Jun 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not sure about that. Depressingly they have never gone away, they've just learned to keep quiet. John Barnes said that about racists at football. But them knowing to keep quiet is itself a victory.


I dont want anyone to misunderstand me - of course they never went away - im trying to make a more subtle point about how racist anger can be triggered in people. Im too tired and emotional to make the point clearly though right now i expect


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

coley said:


> Hasn't Switzerland recently had a referendum on free movement and voted to restrict it? To the annoyance of the EU?


They also formally withdrew their 26 year old pending application to become a member of the EU in March.


----------



## CRI (Jun 28, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Ive been thinking about this - maybe in a way they did, come out overnight.
> You can have a relatively peaceful dog and give it a sniff of blood and whip it up into a frenzy and itll go and bite someone.
> The Exit campaign has done just that (plus of course months more in the racist newspapers as warm up).
> Many of us are frustrated, and humans are manipulable - our frustration can been channeled by others in all kinds of ways. Thats the danger of a situation like the one we're in.



Um, sort of. 

I'm not going with the dog analogy because that's not actually how dogs brains work.  It's not how human brains work, either.  Unlike dogs, people have cognition, have agency.

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but it's coming across as though the racist shit stains deserve some sympathy because their actions are the result of "frustration," or perhaps not their fault because they've been "manipulated."  I'm not buying that.

Yes, Murdoch and his ilk, selfish politicians, etc. encourage bigotry and division for their own ends - bigger profits, power, control, etc.  I think they do try to manipulate people, of course they do.  But, I also think this works with people who are _already_ receptive to the message because they already feel entitled and superior because of their ethnicity, nationality, cultural background, whatever.  White, working class folks may be having a shit time, but that doesn't absolve them of taking out their frustrations on others that they see as inferior to themselves.  Nope.

Edit:  Not at all suggesting only white working class people are behind the abuse, but I've read stuff rationalising that they voted to leave either because they were too stupid to understand what they were voting for, were hoodwinked by the media (again suggesting they're inherently stupid) or that because they've had enough of being "bottom of the pile," and just trying to work out if what you wrote is in any of these veins.


----------



## coley (Jun 28, 2016)

While what has been happening in the UK is nowt short of disgustingly unacceptable,
how does it compare to other EU countries which haven't voted to leave?
FFS, when they do crawl out from under their respective stones the far right are so  tiny in number and have to be protected by an equal number of plod.
The one thing I find distressing is the accounts of harassment where the public apparently turn away rather than confront it?


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 28, 2016)

coley said:


> Hasn't Switzerland recently had a referendum on free movement and voted to restrict it? To the annoyance of the EU?



2014 and have not implemented it


----------



## coley (Jun 28, 2016)

CRI said:


> Um, sort of.
> 
> I'm not going with the dog analogy because that's not actually how dogs brains work.  It's not how human brains work, either.  Unlike dogs, people have cognition, have agency.
> 
> ...



Absolute bollocks, most white working class folks don't see anybody as "inferior"  they see an elitist establishment who regard themselves as "so superior" and that's whats their anger is directed against.


----------



## coley (Jun 28, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> 2014 and have not implemented it


Probably what will happen to the UKs decision to leave, left in perpetual abeyance.


----------



## CRI (Jun 28, 2016)

coley said:


> The one thing I find distressing is the accounts of harassment where the public apparently turn away rather than confront it?



This ^

I get that folks don't want to put themselves at risk of harm and not everyone is in a situation where they can do a lot, but sometimes good old "British reserve" just won't do.  

Some useful stuff here about what you can do as a bystander - also works for other types of hate crime.   *WHO, IF NOT YOU?  How you can intervene when witnessing racist assaults*


----------



## CRI (Jun 28, 2016)

coley said:


> Absolute bollocks, most white working class folks don't see anybody as "inferior"  they see an elitist establishment who regard themselves as "so superior" and that's whats their anger is directed against.



"White working class folks don't see anybody as inferior."

Righty ho, you answered my question then.  Cheers.  

Edit:  Ah, wasn't your post to start with.  But do you REALLY believe white working class people don't experience racial privilege, at all?  Do they really think they they are "directing their anger at the elitist establishment" when they engage in racist, homophobic or disablist abuse?  Seriously?


----------



## coley (Jun 28, 2016)

CRI said:


> "White working class folks don't see anybody as inferior."
> 
> Righty ho, you answered my question then.  Cheers.
> 
> Edit:  Ah, wasn't your post to start with.  But do you REALLY believe white working class people don't experience racial privilege, at all?


Answered your 'edit' it would seem, and now seemingly your 'second' edit.


----------



## CRI (Jun 28, 2016)

coley said:


> Answered your 'edit' it would seem, and now seemingly your 'second' edit.


Well, if you stick by your original post, yep, you have.


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2016)

CRI said:


> "White working class folks don't see anybody as inferior."
> 
> Righty ho, you answered my question then.  Cheers.
> 
> Edit:  Ah, wasn't your post to start with.  But do you REALLY believe white working class people don't experience racial privilege, at all?  Do they really think they they are "directing their anger at the elitist establishment" when they engage in racist, homophobic or disablist abuse?  Seriously?



Intersectionalist?


----------



## coley (Jun 28, 2016)

CRI said:


> This ^
> 
> I get that folks don't want to put themselves at risk of harm and not everyone is in a situation where they can do a lot, but sometimes good old "British reserve" just won't do.
> 
> Some useful stuff here about what you can do as a bystander - also works for other types of hate crime.   *WHO, IF NOT YOU?  How you can intervene when witnessing racist assaults*


Sorry, I didn't need a circular on 'civil courage' it was part of my WC upbringing, alongside of my amusement and astonishment at the casual racism that accompanied it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

CRI said:


> "White working class folks don't see anybody as inferior."
> 
> Righty ho, you answered my question then.  Cheers.
> 
> Edit:  Ah, wasn't your post to start with.  But do you REALLY believe white working class people don't experience racial privilege, at all?  Do they really think they they are "directing their anger at the elitist establishment" when they engage in racist, homophobic or disablist abuse?  Seriously?


Yes. Yes they do. All of them. Every time. Which is pretty much a full time job. So, sorry for anyone we missed.


----------



## coley (Jun 28, 2016)

CRI said:


> Well, if you stick by your original post, yep, you have.


Yep, edit, yep, edit, yep, I think you win, congratulations.


----------



## CRI (Jun 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> Intersectionalist?


Wot, me?


----------



## coley (Jun 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> Intersectionalist?



Harsh, you'll be calling him a virtuous signaller next


----------



## oryx (Jun 28, 2016)

ska invita said:


> There aren't any Spanish or Turkish cafs there, just normal cafes, but yes run by non white English people. This is fucked up.
> 
> Nothing on SE23.com yet...will keep an eye


SE23.com - The SE23 Forum - Racist attacks on HOP resteraunts

Donde & Honor Oak Cafe Windows Bricked

Some people saying it was a bog standard robbery attempt but seems too much of a coincidence.


----------



## CRI (Jun 28, 2016)

coley said:


> Sorry, I didn't need a circular on 'civil courage' it was part of my WC upbringing, alongside of my amusement and astonishment at the casual racism that accompanied it.


Cool.  Glad to year you got straight A's in Civil Courage and don't need the link.  Nothing wrong with the odd refresher though, surely.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 28, 2016)

oryx said:


> SE23.com - The SE23 Forum - Racist attacks on HOP resteraunts
> 
> Donde & Honor Oak Cafe Windows Bricked
> 
> Some people saying it was a bog standard robbery attempt but seems too much of a coincidence.


tbf it could well be a robbery...HOP gets its fair share....Bubbles was my local shop and that was getting robbed fairly regularly...last time i knew of a crew of guys forced the shutter, smashed the door and looted it (fags particularly) But two in a night> And what was stolen? And robbing Honor Oak Cafe? Theres nothing in there! Hardly worth the risk


----------



## CRI (Jun 28, 2016)

I posted the link because yeah, one of the shitty things about the stories of abuse was how little support people got while it was happening.  There were examples where people DID step in and yes, not everyone is in a position to do something or if they're afraid of getting attacked themselves.  Just posted the link as it has some ideas of stuff that can be done safely.  That is all.


----------



## oryx (Jun 28, 2016)

ska invita said:


> tbf it could well be a robbery...HOP gets its fair share....Bubbles was my local shop and that was getting robbed fairly regularly...last time i knew of a crew of guys forced the shutter, smashed the door and looted it. But two in a night> And what was stolen? And robbing Honor Oak Cafe? Theres nothing in there!



Yeah, it's very .


----------



## ska invita (Jun 28, 2016)

CRI said:


> I posted the link because yeah, one of the shitty things about the stories of abuse was how little support people got while it was happening.  There were examples where people DID step in and yes, not everyone is in a position to do something or if they're afraid of getting attacked themselves.  Just posted the link as it has some ideas of stuff that can be done safely.  That is all.


Yeah, fair play to Numbers upthread, but IIRC he has a background in boxing 
I was talking about this to make my work colleague today, and she was saying how because of her slight physique how hard it would be for her to have any kind of effect on someone bigger and meaner than her. I havent read the link yet, just glanced, but it looks like there are some useful things in there.


----------



## coley (Jun 28, 2016)

CRI said:


> Cool.  Glad to year you got straight A's in Civil Courage and don't need the link.  Nothing wrong with the odd refresher though, surely.



Spend nearly every day enduring learning disability fights, and having to attending futile mandatory training courses, luckily we are missing the concerted racial attacks which seem to be engulfing the rest of the country.
Sorry, I don't mean to underemphasise what's been happening, but the 4 idiots in newcastle and related incidents elsewhere, while totally  unacceptable, exhibit a disappointment from the arseholes of the far right rather than an exuberant demonstration that they are 'on the rise'


----------



## ska invita (Jun 28, 2016)

coley said:


> Spend nearly every day enduring learning disability fights, and having to attending futile mandatory training courses, luckily we are missing the concerted racial attacks which seem to be engulfing the rest of the country.
> Sorry, I don't mean to underemphasise what's been happening, but the 4 idiots in newcastle and related incidents elsewhere, while totally  unacceptable, exhibit a disappointment from the arseholes of the far right rather than an exuberant demonstration that they are 'on the rise'


whats happening at the moment is unorganised, 'causal' racism, on an unusually high scale. Its not channeled into NF or other groups. Its grassroots and its coming from corners that are normally 'safe(r)'. Schools and busses and street corners.
Those 4 Newcastle NF guys dont represent the majority of whats being reported here - just happens they were out on this weekend and they made it on the thread.
For now this isnt being channeled into an organised far right...thats true...lets hope it stays that way though. Theres a variety of reasons to suggest it might in the future.


----------



## CRI (Jun 28, 2016)

Yes, it would be shit if NF, BNP, BF or whatever sinister fascist alphabet soup of a group manages to organise and orchestrate racist attacks.

But, the plethora of incidents, ranging from people confidently making racist comments in public conversations on a continuum through to physical attacks on property and people that ISN'T orchestrated may be actually more worrying.  

If stuff's being done by specific people who are members of or somehow linked to a recognisable group, there's a chance they can be watched, held accountable, prosecuted, whatever.  When it's thousands of fairly random people all over the country putting their bigotry into action, how the hell do you counter that!

For the person on the street getting spat on, threatened, their property defaced or head kicked, the experience won't be any less shitty if their assailant wasn't a card carrying member of a far right group, iyswim.

Just think we have to be careful about any messages that come across as, "well, it could be worse," or "it's only four dickheads with a banner," or not all white/old/Geordie/working class/whatever people are bigots.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 28, 2016)

.


----------



## dessiato (Jun 28, 2016)

Numbers said:


> Same pub I mentioned y/day, when walking by today after getting off the bus they were asking an elderly Muslim man when he was leaving, not so politely mind.  I stopped and pulled them up on it, and with my (diluted but as thick as I could muster) Irish accent asked them why not show the same aggression to me, they didn't, said they were only having a laugh, then I displayed a bit of aggressive blue language back towards them and they displayed the cowardly bollox these type of individual do when confronted by someone not intimidated by them.
> 
> I was shitting myself tho'.   Wankers.


Well done. I hope have the guts to do the same on a similar situation.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 28, 2016)




----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 28, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>




I suspect someone might be getting a knock on the door from the plod. What utter wankers. Hope they get the book thrown at them.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2016)

Actress 'suffers racist abuse' as hate crimes spike after Brexit vote


----------



## ska invita (Jun 28, 2016)

On race and brexit:
On the Hideous Whiteness Of Brexit: “Let us be honest about our past and our present if we truly seek to dismantle white supremacy”

Lots of points in it... heres the opening para

An unstated campaign strategy of the Leave campaign was to re-imagine Britain and Britishness (but really Englishness) as white in order to make particular kinds of claims to victimhood which would highlight economic inequality without challenging neoliberalism. For instance, a key argument of the campaign was that the ‘working class’ (who were unquestionably assumed to be white) were suffering under the burden of mass immigration, which transformed the culture of their neighbourhoods and put undue strain on public services. Thus we see whiteness operating as victim—the white working class is being held hostage in their own country by migrants. Any critique of this victimhood further re-enforces a victim status through fulminations that the critic is ‘the real racist’.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> People on social media are saying that the graffiti sprayed on the front doors of the Polish Club in Hammersmith was 'F*** you OMP' and most likely directed at the Polish-based Centre for Political Thought, 'an independent think-tank promoting individual freedom and responsibility, the free market, liberal democracy, the rule of law, and the idea of a limited state'. Its Polish acronym is OMP.  Anyone know anymore about this, nonsense?
> 
> What would a cultural centre have to do with the OMP?



It's what the pic accompanying this Evening Standard piece shows: Polish Embassy respond to post-Brexit racism

Although in this piece they say it said 'go home'.  Not to downplay it, and we don't appear to know what happened, but there's something a bit strange about this story.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 28, 2016)

YOU OMP certainly doesnt mean go home.... its meaningless .FUCK YOU OMP at least makes some sense, not that Ive heard of OMP


----------



## smokedout (Jun 28, 2016)

I think the fuck is pixellated out, assuming its a genuine pic


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 28, 2016)

German Woman Hit By Xenophobia Calls James In Tears


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 28, 2016)

Missus has gone with her dad to watch some tennis thing so I took our daughter to rhyme time at the library. One of the mums asked the only other Dad "What was that weird guy saying to you at Mazey (annual town wide piss up type thing over the weekend)?" "He was telling me he voted Leave and asking what I was doing here." Fuck's sake.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 28, 2016)

I wonder how many left exiteers would still have voted the way they did if they knew that one of the consequences of a _leave_ win would be the massive spike in racist shit that's being detailed on this thread and elsewhere.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 28, 2016)

If this is in fact connected to the leave vote, it may represent a significant escalation of brexit-inspired racialised violence:

Halal butchers worker hit by 'petrol bomb' thrown into Walsall store « Express & Star


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 28, 2016)

I was just going to post that - another similar incident in Brum as well


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 28, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> If this is in fact connected to the leave vote, it may represent a significant escalation of brexit-inspired racialised violence:
> 
> Halal butchers worker hit by 'petrol bomb' thrown into Walsall store « Express & Star


Fuck! That's 15 mins walk from my in-laws house.

*eta* actually 9 mins, because it's Wednesbury Rd not Pleck road


----------



## NoXion (Jun 28, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> I wonder how many left exiteers would still have voted the way they did if they knew that one of the consequences of a _leave_ win would be the massive spike in racist shit that's being detailed on this thread and elsewhere.



I would have voted the same. I'm not responsible for other people being racist shits.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

NoXion said:


> I would have voted the same. I'm not responsible for other people being racist shits.


However, you can be involved in helping build a reaction to this shit. There was an incident in north bristol last night - as result the people i work with politically are contacting local polish groups to see what help they want right now. I know damn well the poles here can mostly look after themselves physically but some visible public support and practical help if required immediately (if you know what i mean) is probably welcome. And everyone here using it to attack leavers - make sure you do the same at the very least.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> If this is in fact connected to the leave vote, it may represent a significant escalation of brexit-inspired racialised violence:
> 
> Halal butchers worker hit by 'petrol bomb' thrown into Walsall store « Express & Star


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 28, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


>


'Belfast, city of the future'


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> 'Belfast, city of the future'



oh aye, yeah but the story relates to the Midlands?


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 28, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> oh aye, yeah but the story relates to the Midlands?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


>



Sorry; I'm not clever as you know - so I may have misread something or missed the point entirely. Please can you explain, Idris.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 28, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Sorry; I'm not clever as you know - so I may have misread something or missed the point entirely. Please can you explain, Idris.


My quip 'Belfast city of the future' was intended to imply that the patterns of intercommunal violence that characterised the north of Ireland from the summer of 1969 might well be imitated in the United Kingdom proper in the wake of the Leave vote.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> My quip 'Belfast city of the future' was intended to imply that the patterns of intercommunal violence that characterised the north of Ireland from the summer of 1969 might well be imitated in the United Kingdom proper in the wake of the Leave vote.



Ah, right. I was thinking of how immigrants are routinely targetted in Belfast - that was the connection I was getting at. Thanks.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 28, 2016)

I'm in Wolves and I've had 3 people on my FB timeline post about racist incidents today


----------



## BigTom (Jun 28, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> I was just going to post that - another similar incident in Brum as well



There's a few incidents of varying degrees of seriousness in this article: EU Referendum unleashes hate crime and racism

I totally missed that the EDL did a demo in Brum.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> I'm in Wolves and I've had 3 people on my FB timeline post about racist incidents today



The Manchester tram inccident is particularly ugly. Lots of sharing happening with that one.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 28, 2016)

Close to home, that one.

We've had a lot of EDL graffiti popping up here in LS12 too, never seen that up this far (Bramley still has a few hardcore old-school fascists, seen racist graffiti on shops down at the Kirkstall end before).

I wouldn't doubt that some incidents will be exaggerated or even plain made up, given the resentment of some remainers, but there is something going on.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 28, 2016)

Brexit Supporter Uses The Slur "Paki" While Talking To BBC Reporter


----------



## no-no (Jun 28, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Aka "appeasement"



Immigration does have a negative or suppressive effect on wages for low skilled jobs doesn't it? Is it still appesement is you're addressing specific legitimate claims?

Also, austerity...free movement of labour is one thing but not when you're also privitising, cutting funds etc....it's a gift to the right isn't it?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 28, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> The Manchester tram inccident is particularly ugly. Lots of sharing happening with that one.



Part of what happens on the tram is vile. Most of what happens isn't. At the most basic level no one joins in. People challenge the racists. It is the racists who leave to taunts and ridicule.

None of this diminishes the severity of the incident but it is evidence of just how unacceptable their actions are and how people are willing to to do something about it.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> However, you can be involved in helping build a reaction to this shit. There was an incident in north bristol last night - as result the people i work with politically are contacting local polish groups to see what help they want right now. I know damn well the poles here can mostly look after themselves physically but some visible public support and practical help if required immediately (if you know what i mean) is probably welcome. And everyone here using it to attack leavers - make sure you do the same at the very least.



So all the Polish women and children can look after themselves. All the Polish men who run their own business, cut hair, work in electronic forensics are real hard men. Very nice, I'm sure they will appreciate your support and incitement to violent action. 

I thought you said that people who feel disenfranchised are allowed to be racist. It is the natural consequence for the working classes. You are a bigoted, misogynistic apologist for racism.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Fuck yeah, those electronic forensics ones are rock.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> So all the Polish women and children can look after themselves. All the Polish men who run their own business, cut hair, work in electronic forensics are real hard men. Very nice, I'm sure they will appreciate your support and incitement to violent action.
> 
> I thought you said that people who feel disenfranchised are allowed to be racist. It is the natural consequence for the working classes. You are a bigoted, misogynistic apologist for racism.


Link or stfu


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Fuck yeah, those electronic forensics ones are rock.



That was a list of what the Polish men I  know do for a living.  You should not be on this thread. It is not for bigoted hateful people who are actually calling for help to escalate the situation even more by trying to arrange violent confrontation (if you know what I mean).  FFS take a long hard look at yourself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> So all the Polish women and children can look after themselves. All the Polish men who run their own business, cut hair, work in electronic forensics are real hard men. Very nice, I'm sure they will appreciate your support and incitement to violent action.


Perhaps if you read the posts you might find they don't say what you believe. In addition to which I wonder what agenda you're pursuing when you say the poles should take what they're given.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

Red leader to Anju come in Anju


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Red leader to Anju come in Anju



Feeling self important?  I have a child just back from school asking about her day takes priority. See below. A link to an article stating that racism is OK for the working class and people who agree. Then my pointing out the problems with that article. Also your friend called me her. I am a man and had not mentioned my gender, there was nothing in the discussion that would have warranted me talking about gender. The only reason to call me her is that I was annoying butchersapron and so they assumed I was female. There is nothing else to explain this.



killer b said:


> This piece is excellent - explains the left leave position better than anything else I've read, as well as why the working class have voted so overwhelmingly to go. “I want to stop something exploitative, divisive and dishonest” — conversation with a Leaver





butchersapron said:


> Yes, he gets it.  Alomost totally.
> 
> Tere is still a strong streak of paternalism in it - the w/c have lost their articulate m/c speaking for them since the since the miners strike for example - the w/c has never had problems being articulate. It has had problems in developing institutions through which those articulate voices can be adequately expressed. Either through direct attack or m/c do-gooding dominance.





Anju said:


> I just read this and I can see why the guy insists his dad is not racist, he is just xenophobic and better than the working class he claims to have some social worker type interest in.
> 
> To claim that the natural outcome of a group of people feeling disenfranchised is to run into the arms of the far right is nonsense. If you feel you are not represented you can choose how to respond. There is no excuse for racism. It is not a cry for help. Apologists for racist behaviour are only one thing. The guy actually described himself when he talked about deep seated bigots.
> 
> ...


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Perhaps if you read the posts you might find they don't say what you believe. In addition to which I wonder what agenda you're pursuing when you say the poles should take what they're given.



I didn't say that. I just think violence on either side is wrong.  The Polish people I know would not want this as a solution.  For many of them violent thugs were one of the things they were trying to avoid.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 28, 2016)

no-no said:


> Immigration does have a negative or suppressive effect on wages for low skilled jobs doesn't it? Is it still appesement is you're addressing specific legitimate claims?



Apparently it's very marginal, but I suspect that's statistics - there's some very highly paid migrant workers in London's financial sector, footballers etc. that probably skew things a bit.  It'll depend on people's personal experiences - there's certainly people doing trade jobs for less money, but then still seems to be plenty of work to go around there so I suspect 'native' sparkies etc. are still getting decent cash.  If the construction industry goes down the toilet again maybe this will change.

Also, a lot of the shit minimum wage jobs are in new industries like large distribution depots or cut-price shopping chains that didn't exist 20 years ago.  I'm not sure what these can be compared to, and what part immigration might have played in these jobs appearing, if any.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 28, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> I wonder how many left exiteers would still have voted the way they did if they knew that one of the consequences of a _leave_ win would be the massive spike in racist shit that's being detailed on this thread and elsewhere.



Definitely a question that I, as a leave voter from the left, think is important to face up to. I don't want to respond on this particular thread though because it is too important to derail it with what might come across as 'leavesplaining'. 

Maybe we can start another thread with that particular question in mind. I'm at work this evening so won't be able to get involved straight away, but it needs addressing as an issue. The left needs to be united against the racist shit going on now, and unity necessitates both Leavers and Remainers accepting each other's rationale for voting, even if we disagree.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 28, 2016)

no-no said:


> Immigration does have a negative or suppressive effect on wages for low skilled jobs doesn't it? Is it still appesement is you're addressing specific legitimate claims?
> 
> Also, austerity...free movement of labour is one thing but not when you're also privitising, cutting funds etc....it's a gift to the right isn't it?





no-no said:


> Immigration does have a negative or suppressive effect on wages for low skilled jobs doesn't it? Is it still appesement is you're addressing specific legitimate claims?
> 
> Also, austerity...free movement of labour is one thing but not when you're also privitising, cutting funds etc....it's a gift to the right isn't it?



Youve answered your own question really. The solution to attacks on pay and conditions is stronger unions, as the solution to a housing crisis is public intervention. The right create the crisis and set up the scapegoats. The irony is that the government responsible gets off the hook, which is part of the idea. I would be interested to discuss moderate migration controls from a left POV as part of a protectionist package but thats not whats on offer. Most of the people frothing about this ( i live in a high immigrant area btw, dont have consistent work, yet manage to not be bitter about it), try talking to them about housing policy, imvestmemt etc. "Lefty crap" innit, they wanna slag off foreigners. Ghis country has consistently voted for capitalism, doesnt seem to like the results, so is channeled further right. Its a pretty standard historical dynamic. Then people try to bollox whitesplain it away, make assumptions about motivation for criticising racists. The right say its pc gone mad to say racism is racist, and too many liberals and leftists have concocted that its an attack on the working class to do so.

 Race hate is stoked, sustained and legitimised by the ruling class through their disinfo press, the most consistent examples being the bourgeois Mail and Express. It permeates all classes, though most of the victims are probably working class, something the whitesplainers may he forgetting.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Feeling self important?  I have a child just back from school asking about her day takes priority. See below. A link to an article stating that racism is OK for the working class and people who agree. Then my pointing out the problems with that article. Also your friend called me her. I am a man and had not mentioned my gender, there was nothing in the discussion that would have warranted me talking about gender. The only reason to call me her is that I was annoying butchersapron and so they assumed I was female. There is nothing else to explain this.



I forget to mention that the article also used the good immigrants bad immigrants argument. Butchersapron also seemed fine with that.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 28, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Also, a lot of the shit minimum wage jobs are in new industries like large distribution depots or cut-price shopping chains that didn't exist 20 years ago.  I'm not sure what these can be compared to,


the mines and steel works they are built on top of?


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2016)

Why have I been summoned?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I didn't say that. I just think violence on either side is wrong.  The Polish people I know would not want this as a solution.  For many of them violent thugs were one of the things they were trying to avoid.


You seem to me to be saying self defence is to be deplored


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I forget to mention that the article also used the good immigrants bad immigrants argument. Butchersapron also seemed fine with that.


"Seemed fine" or actively agreed?


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2016)

Ah, OK. 

Anju - the article doesn't say what you say it does. You've totally misrepresented the article, what I've said and what butchers has said. I've no interest in discussing it with you any further as you seem incapable of arguing a case honestly.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> "Seemed fine" or actively agreed?



So because I write that Polish people can be women, children and non macho males you can infer that I am saying they should accept what they get but when your online friends are in full agreement with an article that expresses all kinds of disgusting sentiment I have to have word by word agreement.

Will you be summoning any more people to help out?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> So because I write that Polish people can be women, children and non macho males you can infer that I am saying they should accept what they get but when your online friends are in full agreement with an article that expresses all kinds of disgusting sentiment I have to have word by word agreement.
> 
> Will you be summoning any more people to help out?


this would be the article killer b says you have misrepresented I suppose. You say you deplore violence "from either side". Does that mean you agree with me self-defence is no offence, that you only disagree with aggressive violence? E2a: I haven't summoned anyone to help me to start with so I won't be summoning "any more people".


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> Ah, OK.
> 
> Anju - the article doesn't say what you say it does. You've totally misrepresented the article, what I've said and what butchers has said. I've no interest in discussing it with you any further as you seem incapable of arguing a case honestly.



OK. The only bit of the article you defended was the part apologising for racism. How about you give your interpretation. I will add the good v bad immigrants bit to mine and let the people of Urban decide who is correct?


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2016)

Nope.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> this would be the article killer b says you have misrepresented I suppose. You say you deplore violence "from either side". Does that mean you agree with me self-defence is no offence, that you only disagree with aggressive violence? E2a: I haven't summoned anyone to help me to start with so I won't be summoning "any more people".



Perhaps you could read it for yourself rather than just asking your friends.  Also, why are you asking me about the type of violence I disagree with?


----------



## no-no (Jun 28, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Youve answered your own question really. The solution to attacks on pay and conditions is stronger unions, as the solution to a housing crisis is public intervention. The right create the crisis and set up the scapegoats. The irony is that the government responsible gets off the hook, which is part of the idea. I would be interested to discuss moderate migration controls from a left POV as part of a protectionist package but thats not whats on offer. Most of the people frothing about this ( i live in a high immigrant area btw, dont have consistent work, yet manage to not be bitter about it), try talking to them about housing policy, imvestmemt etc. "Lefty crap" innit, they wanna slag off foreigners. Ghis country has consistently voted for capitalism, doesnt seem to like the results, so is channeled further right. Its a pretty standard historical dynamic. Then people try to bollox whitesplain it away, make assumptions about motivation for criticising racists. The right say its pc gone mad to say racism is racist, and too many liberals and leftists have concocted that its an attack on the working class to do so.
> 
> Race hate is stoked, sustained and legitimised by the ruling class through their disinfo press, the most consistent examples being the bourgeois Mail and Express. It permeates all classes, though most of the victims are probably working class, something the whitesplainers may he forgetting.



Since it seems very unlikely we're going to elect any form of socialist government soon, would it hurt to have some protectionist measures? I don't think it'd cut any mustard with the most rabid racists at all but perhaps with your average disillusioned ukip voter? The fat they see some change might be enough esp if the policy is coming from labour?

I don't think it does the left any favours to keep saying there are no negative effects to immigration when there clearly are no matter how insignificant they may seem. They get played up to the max by the right.

Some protection for certain trades and massive investment in education so we can fill some of our own skill shortages would reduce support for the far right wouldn't it?

As you say though, we keep electing capitalists so these options aren't on the table. They're on Corbyns table though so why aren't people interested?

edit.....actually prob not the protectiing jobs bit....don't think Corbyn is proposing anything like that.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> this would be the article killer b says you have misrepresented I suppose. You say you deplore violence "from either side". Does that mean you agree with me self-defence is no offence, that you only disagree with aggressive violence? E2a: I haven't summoned anyone to help me to start with so I won't be summoning "any more people".





killer b said:


> Why have I been summoned?


----------



## ffsear (Jun 28, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>






3 arrested







Make a fucking example of them please.  Prison time.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2016)

It was you that tagged me in this thread you fucking weapon.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 28, 2016)

What?! It was you that 'summoned' killer b by replying to his post 

Also, you have misrepresented what the piece says, and thrown in some dreadful smeary shit towards BA in the process.


----------



## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 28, 2016)

I hate all this n hope it isn't going to turn into a repeat of Nazi Geemany with the Polish scategoated like the Jews were. I'm absolutely horrified to read of what's going on n it makes me feel ashamed to be part of this country. You'd think that after everything that has happened throughout history (n it's not like it's not taught in schools) that people would wise up n not be so easily brainwashed. I feel very sad to see this going on in the year 2016 n I feel for the Polish we are all human with blood through our veins, after all. How cares where people are from so long as they're good, caring, kind-hearted people who contribute?

Saddening 

Evey


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju you "summoned" killer b, don't make out I have been summoning people to my assistance. I await your apology.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> It was you that tagged me in this thread you fucking weapon.



Where did I tag you. You replied to my post. You lot really are not very bright are you.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Anju you "summoned" killer b, don't make out I have been summoning people to my assistance. I await your apology.



I did not tag him in any post. Show me where the post is you jumped up little........


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Where did I tag you. You replied to my post. You lot really are not very bright are you.



Post #323


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I did not tag him in any post. Show me where the post is you jumped up little........


You quoted him  

Now, where's that apology?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Where did I tag you. You replied to my post. You lot really are not very bright are you.


Yeh. But we're 60w to your 40w


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

I quoted his post I did not tag him. It is unfair to hijack this thread with petty arguments. I was happy to let other people decide who  is correct but this was declined by kb.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I quoted his post I did not tag him. It is unfair to hijack this thread with petty arguments. I was happy to let other people decide who  is correct but this was declined by kb.



You keep on posting and put the petty squad on ignore. Works for me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I quoted his post I did not tag him. It is unfair to hijack this thread with petty arguments. I was happy to let other people decide who  is correct but this was declined by kb.


If you quote someone they get an alert the same as tagging them. As you know from all the alerts you have from me. There would have been no petty argument if you engaged brain. One of us is stupid, brighteyes, but it isn't me.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> You quoted him
> 
> Now, where's that apology?



Wow you really are a jumped up little man. I think your bulb may have blown. That was so witty by the way. Ha ha ha. You're 60watt and I'm 40. You should consider a career in comedy.   I am going to make my lovely family dinner now. Sure I will see you all again.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Jun 28, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You keep on posting and put the petty squad on ignore. Works for me.



Have we reached P-Iggy?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Apparently it's very marginal...





Dogsauce said:


> I wouldn't doubt that some incidents will be exaggerated or even plain made up, given the resentment of some remainers...


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You keep on posting and put the petty squad on ignore. Works for me.



Thanks. I got lots of PMs from people who are enjoying this. I have spare time at the moment so will carry on later or tomorrow if I don't have time tonight. To be fair to people that want this thread to stay on topic I might start one just for them.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 28, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I wouldn't doubt that some incidents will be exaggerated or even plain made up, given the resentment of some remainers, but there is something going on.



I would doubt that, tbh. btw how do you _exaggerate_ a racist attack/insult?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2016)

Harry Smiles said:


> Have we reached P-Iggy?



As bearla, mais e do thoile.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Wow you really are a jumped up little man. I think your bulb may have blown. That was so witty by the way. Ha ha ha. You're 60watt and I'm 40. You should consider a career in comedy.   I am going to make my lovely family dinner now. Sure I will see you all again.


So in summary you are against all violence from whichever quarter it emanates. Therefore you are against the 'violence' of people protecting themselves and thus you think Polish people should take any shit they're given.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Thanks. I got lots of PMs from people who are enjoying this. I have spare time at the moment so will carry on later or tomorrow if I don't have time tonight. To be fair to people that want this thread to stay on topic I might start one just for them.



Don't let the apologists grind you down.


----------



## xenon (Jun 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> If you quote someone they get an alert the same as tagging them. As you know from all the alerts you have from me. There would have been no petty argument if you engaged brain. One of us is stupid, brighteyes, but it isn't me.



TBF you can turn that setting off. Might be off by default.

Anyway, Anju total misreading of BA's earlier post re offering support to Pollish groups et al, who've suffered racist attacks.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 28, 2016)

ffsear said:


> 3 arrested
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Aye, and learn some fucking grammar. "Upmost"


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 28, 2016)

Wilhelmina.Trav said:


> I hate this isn't going to turn into a repeat of Nazi Geemany with the Polish scategoated like the Jews were.


I think we should be alright on that front.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 28, 2016)




----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I would doubt that, tbh. btw how do you _exaggerate_ a racist attack/insult?



A bit of shouting and pointing becomes 'violently attacked' (not referring specifically to the case I noted to be clear), stuff like that.  Things can be played up if they support a political position (the position being 'leave voters are bad - just look what they've done').  I'm in the remain camp, but there's been plenty of end-of-the-world hysteria from fellow remainers on my facebook to make my eyes roll.

There is plenty of clear-cut racist shit going on at the moment and I'm not attempting to deny this or deny a connection to the referendum and the political arguments framed around it, but it's worth retaining a bit of scepticism for all the stuff people are coming out with, that's all.  Not every broken window will be a racist attack.

eta:  I'm conflicted about whether these reports should be talked up and shared as much as they are - on one hand it's good to call it out and highlight that it's not acceptable and people should be defended from it, on the other hand the fear generated won't be good for anyone who sees themselves as a potential victim of this shit, and spreading this sort of fear is what the far right wants - we're kind of doing their job.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 28, 2016)

Wilhelmina.Trav said:


> How cares where people are from so long as they're good, caring, kind-hearted people who contribute?



We should have time for and support those who aren't so good, or don't 'contribute' too.  Talking about people 'contributing' is the kind of phrase the tories use all the time, this stuff about immigrants 'paying their way' will extend to the native population too if we don't stand up for poorer migrants (already has really with all this 'scrounger' crap).  Don't let them divide us.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 28, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> As bearla, mais e do thoile.



Bodach, tha an debate air urban sgoinneil, tha an smears agad cach.

Shit gaidhlig, may or may not translate to what looks like an Irish Gaelic speaker 



Dogsauce said:


> A bit of shouting and pointing becomes 'violently attacked' (not referring specifically to the case I noted to be clear), stuff like that.  Things can be played up if they support a political position (the position being 'leave voters are bad - just look what they've done').  I'm in the remain camp, but there's been plenty of end-of-the-world hysteria from fellow remainers on my facebook to make my eyes roll.
> 
> There is plenty of clear-cut racist shit going on at the moment and I'm not attempting to deny this or deny a connection to the referendum and the political arguments framed around it, but it's worth retaining a bit of scepticism for all the stuff people are coming out with, that's all.  Not every broken window will be a racist attack.
> 
> eta:  I'm conflicted about whether these reports should be talked up and shared as much as they are - on one hand it's good to call it out and highlight that it's not acceptable and people should be defended from it, on the other hand the fear generated won't be good for anyone who sees themselves as a potential victim of this shit, and spreading this sort of fear is what the far right wants - we're kind of doing their job.




Thing is unless you know, it's kind of out of order to suggest otherwise. I see what you are getting at but I probably wouldn't go there.


----------



## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 28, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> We should have time for and support those who aren't so good, or don't 'contribute' too.  Talking about people 'contributing' is the kind of phrase the tories use all the time, this stuff about immigrants 'paying their way' will extend to the native population too if we don't stand up for poorer migrants (already has really with all this 'scrounger' crap).  Don't let them divide us.



True. However there are many ways of contributing than just paying their way for instance we get to learn about other people's culture, they help towards the economy when they buy stuff etc. Sorry if my post sounded Tory-like n I agree with what you're saying. 

Evey


----------



## ska invita (Jun 28, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> eta:  I'm conflicted about whether these reports should be talked up and shared as much as they are - on one hand it's good to call it out and highlight that it's not acceptable and people should be defended from it, on the other hand the fear generated won't be good for anyone who sees themselves as a potential victim of this shit, and spreading this sort of fear is what the far right wants - we're kind of doing their job.



I think the fear was there before these incidents got shared, and I think the incidents do need sharing as most are just the kind of thing that dont get reported to the police and dissapear into a safe silence, especially for those who will never be directly effected by them

Good things to come out of Brexit so far is its seems to have shown up a lot of people for who they are, and shown them to the country, across the spectrum, from Labour politicians, to closet racists, to those living in a privilege bubble....its been a real mirror to society. More of this not less.

Also the way things are going politically in Europe and the US recently, the move is away from cosy consensus and fighting for the middle ground to a more divided politics. Even without Exit that wouldve kept growing in the UK. Some people are going to have to wake up a bit to the reality of what that means in practice. This particular genie is out of the box and I dont think its going back any time soon. The whole country needs to get up to speed on it. Ive spoken to a few people today and last night who were completely oblivious to anything reported on this thread - they hadn't heard a thing.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 28, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I wouldn't doubt that some incidents will be exaggerated or even plain made up, given the resentment of some remainers




Nationalist conspiracy theory time, people are making up racist attacks. "I wouldn't doubt." Prick.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 28, 2016)

I can see how some incidents might get ascribed to the referendum emboldening some twats when they are just 'everyday racism', but there are a lot of cases where the twats are directly referring to the vote.  

I can see why people want to distance themselves from this shit, but I'm finding on things like Facebook that those getting indignant about being associated with racists don't need much scratching for some nasty things to come out.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 28, 2016)

One million people voted BNP in the last but one Euros. 4mn voted UKIP last election (no doubt inc the 1mn BNP) and how many on the Tory right are just gagging for shit like this. What are we looking at? 1.5-4.5mn people potentially? Adults, voting age adults in the racist pool.
Both the leave campaign and the remain campaign (Tom fat cunt from Labour) preferred to use immigrants as vote-bait rather than distance themselves from/attack an economic system which a) they supported for 40 yrs and b) is the central cause of Europe's problems.
This outbreak is a disgrace and shameful, it will stain this country for years now, and no matter what class you come from or think you come from, whoever does this or allows this is filth and the enemy. Fuck any excuses for these people. Conspiracy theories, extreme victimhood and nationalism combined. Fuck all of them into the gutter.


----------



## Poot (Jun 29, 2016)

This, surely, has to be the biggest "wtf" incident so far...

Plymouth doctor racially abused in the street - for 'looking Polish'



> A Plymouth GP with no links to Poland was abused by a racist pensioner as he walked down the street - for "looking Polish".
> 
> The outburst at the city doctor came as police across the country reported rising levels of racially-motivated hate crime in the wake of Britain's EU referendum.
> 
> ...


----------



## trashpony (Jun 29, 2016)

That's a bit like when that paediatrician had  paedo graffitied on her house in the middle of the night


----------



## chilango (Jun 29, 2016)

trashpony said:


> That's a bit like when that paediatrician had  paedo graffitied on her house in the middle of the night



This guy s gonna be screwed then



French AND Polish? Get out !!!!!


----------



## existentialist (Jun 29, 2016)

ffsear said:


> 3 arrested
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd rather something more publicly embarrassing, TBH. Community service. In a carefully-chosen venue where THEY get to feel like the minority for a bit.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> Bodach, tha an debate air urban sgoinneil, tha an smears agad cach.
> 
> Shit gaidhlig, may or may not translate to what looks like an Irish Gaelic speaker



I was asking Harry Smiles to put what he said into plain English as I don't understand "Have we reached P-Iggy?". .

I said it in another language because sometimes some of the clever folk here seem to be posting in another language.

Anyway, enough of that.

Jamelia racially abused by a cop.

Loose Women star Jamelia 'racially abused by policeman' - BBC News


----------



## two sheds (Jun 29, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I was asking Harry Smiles to put what he said into plain English as I don't understand "Have we reached P-Iggy?". .



http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/peak-iggy-anyone.345220/#post-14576416


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 29, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Jamelia racially abused by a cop.
> 
> Loose Women star Jamelia 'racially abused by policeman' - BBC News


There's absolutely nothing to suggest that this had anything to do with the referendum outcome and is more than likely just a random racist fuckwit. 

If people now attribute every reported act of racism to Brexit the genuine cases of referendum-driven bigotry are going to be rubbished.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2016)

two sheds said:


> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/peak-iggy-anyone.345220/#post-14576416



Means nothing to me, I'm afraid.

In other news; they've arrested those scrotes from the tram inccident yesterday

Former US Army soldier 'racially abused' on British tram blames Brexit


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 29, 2016)

trashpony said:


> That's a bit like when that paediatrician had  paedo graffitied on her house in the middle of the night


I don't think that one actually happened.  It was a figment of liberal confirmation bias.

But this shit is all too real.  And though I sent off the Amnesty-requested emails to my local councillors, that was about as much use as a chocolate fire-retardant.  More direct solidarity is needed.  And more socially based - peer based not bureaucracy-based (which may well be counter-productive) - disapproval of the racism is needed.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 29, 2016)

Poot said:


> This, surely, has to be the biggest "wtf" incident so far...
> 
> Plymouth doctor racially abused in the street - for 'looking Polish'



I've had this before, both sides of my family are Irish but I've been on the receiving end of abuse about being 'Turkish'. Since it happened in the summer I can only assume it's because of having a tan + black hair. It's a really surreal experience getting xenophobic abuse aimed at a nationality other than your own.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I was asking Harry Smiles to put what he said into plain English as I don't understand "Have we reached P-Iggy?". .
> 
> I said it in another language because sometimes some of the clever folk here seem to be posting in another language.
> 
> ...


Yes I know you were, Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic are more or less mutually intelligible.

I was saying the debate on urban is ace and your smears not so, to put it politely. 

Cops are cunts, i hope she hit him back.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I've had this before, both sides of my family are Irish but I've been on the receiving end of abuse about being 'Turkish'. Since it happened in the summer I can only assume it's because of having a tan + black hair. It's a really surreal experience getting xenophobic abuse aimed at a nationality other than your own.


Yes it is...a few years back I was asked where I was originally from on the street in Brixton
I replied " up north"
this was not specific enough
and when I said "Yorkshire"
I was told to fuck off back to Albania


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 29, 2016)

Being vaguely foreign looking I've had a fair amount of mostly anti semitic crap and had a lot of 'didn't know your Dad is a p***' growing up. I have also had compliments on my English


----------



## Whagwan (Jun 29, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> I don't think that one actually happened.  It was a figment of liberal confirmation bias.



Doctor driven out of home by vigilantes


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2016)

Whagwan said:


> Doctor driven out of home by vigilantes


Oh well, if no one else is going to post it:

Whispering game



> "Why let the truth get in the way of a good story?" says Chief Inspector Andrew Adams, of Gwent Police, who was the liaison officer in charge when news of this incident broke six years ago. He remembers very well that stressful night, when he gave 18 live interviews to various media outlets.
> 
> "There was no big mob," he says. "Nothing like that happened. I know because I was there and I was involved. The lady was not in her home when it happened. She came home from work to see her door daubed with anti-paedophile graffiti.
> 
> ...


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 29, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Oh well, if no one else is going to post it:
> 
> Whispering game


Indeed.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> Yes I know you were, Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic are more or less mutually intelligible.
> 
> I was saying the debate on urban is ace and your smears not so, to put it politely.
> 
> Cops are cunts, i hope she hit him back.



Smears? Nah, just calling it as I see it & standing up to the triumphalism on display. As for the "cops are cunts" mantra - that's not a very nice smear, is it?

Some cops are and some aren't. Just like some brexiteers are and some aren't.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

Hi all,
I was a little shocked yesterday to discover that some people think there is an excuse for racism, even here on Urban, that there are people that think violence is an acceptable reaction to what is happening at the moment.

Leave voters, you supported a cause and campaign of which Nigel Farrage and his supporters were a major part. Last year he defended a UKIP MP who used the word chinky. You knew you were colluding with racists. Where was the campaign to eject him and his followers 17,000,000 of you just let this happen and many of you knew the potential consequences. 

The same thing is happening in America. Liberal commentators are excusing or denying the racism of the Trump campaign. This is not how to harm the establishment, or whatever you want to call the people who rule.

Here are a few definitions of what you are.

What do you call someone who bends reality to come up with plausible sounding reasons to accept or deflect the racist behaviour in others?  Is it an associate-racist, a racist's apprentice, or maybe just "a racist"?   This is also someone who uses his or her verbal and analytical skills to spin the facts so that they turn in the opposite direction. The victims become the poor white people.

If you think that things the majority of a race consider to be racist towards them are not in fact racist towards them... you might be are apologist for racism.

If your arguments, rhetoric and positions mirror uncannily those deployed by people you know very well are racist you are an apologist for racism.

If you support a cause, and your instinctive response to widespread complaints that many within that cause are circulating racist ideas is not, 'We'd better get those racist ideas and the people who hold them the hell away from our cause, or they'll make us look like a bunch of racists,' but, 'Stop trying to undermine our good and just cause with your spurious accusations; we'll tell you what is and isn't racist'... you are apologist for racism.

If a defender of your cause goes onto national television and says something so  obnoxious and wrong-headed that pretty much the entire country's jaw drops in a collective bout of 'WTF?!, and instead of hurling yourself and your cause in the opposite direction, you busy yourself trying to contextualise the supposed nuances of this utterance with reference to sociological, philosophical or political theory.  You are an apologist for racism.

At least admit to yourselves what you have done, who you really are and start caring for people other than yourself.


----------



## JimW (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> Hi all,
> I was a little shocked yesterday to discover that some people think there is an excuse for racism, even here on Urban, that there are people that think violence is an acceptable reaction to what is happening at the moment.
> 
> Leave voters, you supported a cause and campaign of which Nigel Farrage and his supporters were a major part. Last year he defended a UKIP MP who used the word chinky. You knew you were colluding with racists. Where was the campaign to eject him and his followers 17,000,000 of you just let this happen and many of you knew the potential consequences.
> ...


You've drowned Syrian children in the.Med. Or how about you dump this.bullshit guilt by association.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

xenon said:


> TBF you can turn that setting off. Might be off by default.
> 
> Anyway, Anju total misreading of BA's earlier post re offering support to Pollish groups et al, who've suffered racist attacks.



Thanks 

I don't think I did misread his post. The (if you know what I mean) seemed pretty clear.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

JimW said:


> You've drowned Syrian children in the.Med. Or how about you dump this.bullshit guilt by association.



Yes we have killed children all over the world. British bombs are destroying Yemen and our government is still selling weapons to the Saudis. They are waiting for a report from the Saudis before they decide whether to stop the arms sales. Labour MPs voted to bomb Syria.  I am ashamed that by association I am part of this.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 29, 2016)

Please Anju, do this on another thread.


----------



## Whagwan (Jun 29, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Oh well, if no one else is going to post it:
> 
> Whispering game



So you have confirmed that "when that paediatrician had paedo graffitied on her house" actually happened and was not "a figment of liberal confirmation bias."?  As that was all I was attempting to refute, I didn't comment on the rest of the story...


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2016)

Whagwan said:


> So you have confirmed that "when that paediatrician had paedo graffitied on her house" actually happened and was not "a figment of liberal confirmation bias."?  As that was all I was attempting to refute, I didn't comment on the rest of the story...


Something happened for sure - but that something was blown out of all proportion by the " liberal confirmation bias." danny mentioned. That's what i was confirming. The long running results of that bias is that i don't think a year has passed since that article was written in which it's not been posted in response to someone saying what about that paedo they burnt out/hung in newport/portsmouth etc. It's almost became expected - me and danny were, i think acting a little bit in expectation of where this was going and what was going to be posted.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Please Anju, do this on another thread.



OK, I will not reply to any posts. I just want people to think about what they have done and this is the thread about racism.

I saw my niece who was racially abused last night. She was with her daughter who has touretts, which manifests itself as hand and shoulder ticks, along with little shrieks. On the morning of the leave win a group of guys waited until they were getting off the train and sang the jungle book song, making noises and physical monkey impressions. Previously they had been loudly talking about getting their country back. I was already angry about this but when I heard the full details last night I cried.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> start caring for people other than yourself.


how the fuck dare you. At root I think and do as I do because I care for other people. Get your waggy finger and stick it up your arse.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> OK, I will not reply to any posts. I just want people to think about what they have done and this is the thread about racism.
> 
> I saw my niece who was racially abused last night. She was with her daughter who has touretts, which manifests itself as hand and shoulder ticks, along with little shrieks. On the morning of the leave win a group of guys waited until they were getting off the train and sang the jungle book song, making noises and physical monkey impressions. Previously they had been loudly talking about getting their country back. I was already angry about this but when I heard the full details last night I cried.



Horrific. But be warned; some will see you as a middle class liberal exaggerating an inccident that has nothing to do with the result.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> Thanks. I got lots of PMs from people who are enjoying this. I have spare time at the moment so will carry on later or tomorrow if I don't have time tonight. To be fair to people that want this thread to stay on topic I might start one just for them.



"Hundreds of PMs of support" is an ancient Urban meme that I suspect you'll come to regret.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> What do you call someone who bends reality to come up with plausible sounding reasons to accept or deflect the racist behaviour in others?  Is it an associate-racist, a racist's apprentice, or maybe just "a racist"?



An EU supporter, who just voted for a white countries only immigration policy, Fortress Europe, immigration prisons and refugee camps?


----------



## ska invita (Jun 29, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> how the fuck dare you. At root I think and do as I do because I care for other people. Get your waggy finger and stick it up your arse.


I think anju has attempted today to be clear and civil about a subject he is obviously upset by and affected by. I think he deserves a better response than that. Though feel free to keep insulting him if you like.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 29, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> Yes it is...a few years back I was asked where I was originally from on the street in Brixton
> I replied " up north"
> this was not specific enough
> and when I said "Yorkshire"
> I was told to fuck off back to Albania



Twas probably the "I Love Enver Hoxha" t-shirt that did it.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Hundreds of PMs of support" is an ancient Urban meme that I suspect you'll come to regret.



Possibly but I think he said "lots". Which for me, at any rate, means more than one


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 29, 2016)

ska invita said:


> I think anju has attempted today to be clear and civil about a subject he is obviously upset by and affected by. I think he deserves a better response than that. Though feel free to keep insulting him if you like.


No I think I'm done. Calling racism on people for voting out is not on.  'what you have done'. Please.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

ska invita said:


> I think anju has attempted today to be clear and civil about a subject he is obviously upset by and affected by. I think he deserves a better response than that. Though feel free to keep insulting him if you like.



Thanks. 

I said I would not reply so please don't bother insulting me. I have other more pressing real life concerns. And dot communist. It is only my opinion. I would tell you to do the same but as your head is already there I doubt there is room. Again, if you want to throw personal insults at me don't do it here. Start a new thread if you like.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 29, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> No I think I'm done. Calling racism on people for voting out is not on.  'what you have done'. Please.


I don't get that from the post. I get that they are saying you need to take responsibility for what you did if you voted out when you realised that the potential consequences included this, what is being reported again and again on this thread.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 29, 2016)

ska invita said:


> I think anju has attempted today to be clear and civil about a subject he is obviously upset by and affected by. I think he deserves a better response than that. Though feel free to keep insulting him if you like.



he just called 17 million people racist, including if Ashcroft's polling is right over a qurter of Black people and a third of Asian people, that's hardly civil


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2016)

smokedout said:


> he just called 17 million people racist, including if Ashcroft's polling is right over a qurter of Black people and a third of Asian people, that's hardly civil



There's nothing civil about civil war.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I said I would not reply so please don't bother insulting me. I have other more pressing real life concerns. And dot communist. It is only my opinion. I would tell you to do the same but as your head is already there I doubt there is room. Again, if you want to throw personal insults at me don't do it here. Start a new thread if you like.


not one personal insult. At all. Anyway, we are done.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> Leave voters, you supported a cause and campaign of which Nigel Farrage and his supporters were a major part. Last year he defended a UKIP MP who used the word chinky. You knew you were colluding with racists.



Remain voters, you supported a cause and campaign of which David Cameron and his supporters were a major part.  He has spent years urging on pointless and destructive wars of aggression in which hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been killed.  That's a bit more serious than using the word "chinky."  You knew you were colluding with mass murderers.

If you're going to use such a fucking stupid argument.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't get that from the post. I get that they are saying you need to take responsibility for what you did if you voted out when you realised that the potential consequences included this, what is being reported again and again on this thread.


collective responsibility. Always a winner.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 29, 2016)

_what you did
_
wag it any harder it'll drop off


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 29, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> collective responsibility. Always a winner.


More individual responsibility, no? Again, they address this - this is the relevant bit:



> Leave voters, you supported a cause and campaign of which Nigel Farrage and his supporters were a major part. Last year he defended a UKIP MP who used the word chinky. You knew you were colluding with racists. Where was the campaign to eject him and his followers 17,000,000 of you just let this happen and many of you knew the potential consequences.



If you suspected this would happen, but voted leave anyway, does 'it's nothing to do with me' quite cut it?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Remain voters, you supported a cause and campaign of which David Cameron and his supporters were a major part.  He has spent years urging on pointless and destructive wars of aggression in which hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been killed.  That's a bit more serious than using the word "chinky."
> 
> If you're going to use such a fucking stupid argument.



Wars can be started by words. Racist words are the spark for confrontations.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Wars can be started by words. Racist words are the spark for confrontations.



Using the word "chinky" versus invading Iraq.  Not really a serious comparison is it?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Using the word "chinky" versus invading Iraq.  Not really a serious comparison is it?



I'm not making a comparison. I'm _suggesting_ that racist rhetoric is the first step towards conflict.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> More individual responsibility, no? Again, they address this - this is the relevant bit:
> 
> 
> 
> If you suspected this would happen, but voted leave anyway, does 'it's nothing to do with me' quite cut it?


so its individual yet I am supposed to be held to account for the actions of racists? nice one


----------



## smokedout (Jun 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> More individual responsibility, no? Again, they address this - this is the relevant bit:
> 
> 
> 
> If you suspected this would happen, but voted leave anyway, does 'it's nothing to do with me' quite cut it?



Nigel Farage claimed to be against the Bedroom Tax, so am I and we'd probably have voted the same way in a referendum on it

Actively voting to prop up a racist, murderous, neo-liberal institution, well thats a different kettle of fish.  Thats proper blood on your hands stuff.


----------



## keybored (Jun 29, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> There's absolutely nothing to suggest that this had anything to do with the referendum outcome and is more than likely just a random racist fuckwit.
> 
> If people now attribute every reported act of racism to Brexit the genuine cases of referendum-driven bigotry are going to be rubbished.



I thought this tweet was highly misleading, considering the incident.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I'm not making a comparison. I'm _suggesting_ that racist rhetoric is the first step towards conflict.



Nonsense.  Wars have more serious causes than that.

FFS, how did we get into such a state that using the word "chinky" is considered a crime against humanity?


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 29, 2016)

smokedout said:


> An EU supporter, who just voted for a white countries only immigration policy, Fortress Europe, immigration prisons and refugee camps?


Who has a white only immigration policy? The UK? More non-EU folk came to the UK last year than Europeans, and are all Europeans white? Loads of the people getting abuse, firebombs in halal butchers, have nothing to do with the EU, nothing to do with the vote, were born here.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't get that from the post. I get that they are saying you need to take responsibility for what you did if you voted out when you realised that the potential consequences included this, what is being reported again and again on this thread.


Agree.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Nonsense.  Wars have more serious causes than that.
> 
> FFS, how did we get into such a state that using the word "chinky" is considered a crime against humanity?


If you really think that bullshit. Go to your local Chinese restaurant and explain it. Don't hide behind the fucking keyboard.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> If you really think that bullshit. Go to your local Chinese restaurant and explain it. Don't hide behind the fucking keyboard.



I don't need to go to a Chinese restaurant to meet Chinese people.  I'm in China.  No-one here gives a toss what you call them. They are sensible people who know what's really important, unlike some.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> I'm in China.  No-one here gives a toss what you call them. .


  Utterly self-important, patronising, nonsense.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> I don't need to go to a Chinese restaurant to meet Chinese people.  I'm in China.  No-one here gives a toss what you call them. They are sensible people who know what's really important, unlike some.


Wanker. Really is scratch-an-old-lefty-and-what-do-you-get moment this thread.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 29, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Wanker. Really is scratch-an-old-lefty-and-what-do-you-get moment this thread.



I don't believe Phil ever was a lefty.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> I don't need to go to a Chinese restaurant to meet Chinese people.  I'm in China.  No-one here gives a toss what you call them. They are sensible people who know what's really important, unlike some.


This is a staggeringly ignorant post. Do you understand nothing of what racism is and how it affects people? Of course people in China aren't affected by racist words in the same way as people of Chinese heritage are affected in countries where they are in a minority with a history of racism directed towards them. 

Really, a very very stupid post.


----------



## IC3D (Jun 29, 2016)

God bothering Turkish Nationalist surely?


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 29, 2016)

`Boris for PM` FB `Javid is a muslim do you want him as chancellor` http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/29/boris-for … t-5973903/

German woman in tears over abuse, shit thrown at her house http://www.lbc.co.uk/im-so-scared-now-g … ars-132971


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Wanker. Really is scratch-an-old-lefty-and-what-do-you-get moment this thread.



Tosser.  You allow trivialities to obscure substantive issues.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 29, 2016)

Right everyone, Phil has spoken. Racism isn't important.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Tosser.  You allow trivialities to obscure substantive issues.



To you racist abuse is trivial, says it all you nationalist weirdo.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Of course people in China aren't affected by racist words in the same way as people of Chinese heritage are affected in countries where they are in a minority with a history of racism directed towards them.



It was Coolfonz's assumption that the only place to meet Chinese people was in a Chinese restaurant that I found risible.  And, now that you come to mention it, racist.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> To you racist abuse is trivial, says it all you nationalist weirdo.



You're the racist here.  Why don't you go down your local "Chinese restaurant" and ask them what they think?


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> It was Coolfonz's assumption that the only place to meet Chinese people was in a Chinese restaurant that I found risible.  And, now that you come to mention it, racist.


Desperate lying nationalist prick to whom racist abuse is `trivial`.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 29, 2016)

I have him on ignore, kindly resist the temptation to refer to him or his trolling attempts please


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 29, 2016)

Every thread you get involved with, without fail you twist and make about yourself Phil.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> I don't need to go to a Chinese restaurant to meet Chinese people.  I'm in China.  No-one here gives a toss what you call them. They are sensible people who know what's really important, unlike some.


Why not ask some minority Chinese about their experiences of han racism?


----------



## YouSir (Jun 29, 2016)

Oh stop it the pair of you. Serious topic, act like it.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Desperate lying nationalist prick to whom racist abuse is `trivial`.



Racist wanker who thinks Chinese people all live in restaurants.  Or laundries.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 29, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Oh stop it the pair of you. Serious topic, act like it.



I don't know why you're liking this Phildwyer, I meant you too.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

phil
[QUOTE="phildwyer said:


> Racist wanker who thinks Chinese people all live in restaurants.  Or laundries.



Please don't do this. I posted something because I was unhappy with the lack of criticism of Farrage and UKIP during the campaign and then discovered that people actually seemed to think that some racism is an acceptable reaction to what our government has done to this country. It is not and if people are happy to excuse racism on political ideological grounds that are totally disconnected from peoples day to day experiences I am disgusted by that. 

People jumped into bed with Nigel and the country has come away with a nasty disease. I just didn't see any concerted effort to distance leave from UKIP when it should have been a priority.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> It was Coolfonz's assumption that the only place to meet Chinese people was in a Chinese restaurant that I found risible.  And, now that you come to mention it, racist.


That doesn't make your post any less stupid.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> Please don't do this. I posted something because I was unhappy with the lack of criticism of Farrage and UKIP during the campaign and then discovered that people actually seemed to think that some racism is an acceptable reaction to what our government has done to this country. It is not and if people are happy to excuse racism on political ideological grounds that are totally disconnected from peoples day to day experiences I am disgusted by that.
> 
> People jumped into bed with Nigel and the country has come away with a nasty disease. I just didn't see any concerted effort to distance leave from UKIP when it should have been a priority.



Oh no you don't.

You smeared Leave voters by association with Farage.  You did so on the grounds that he supposedly defended someone who once used the word "chinky."  I pointed out that, by the same logic, Remain voters could be smeared by association with Cameron, who is guilty of far worse than that by anyone's estimation (with the single silly exception of Coolfonz).

So it was a pretty daft thing for you to say really.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 29, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Something happened for sure - but that something was blown out of all proportion by the " liberal confirmation bias." danny mentioned. That's what i was confirming. The long running results of that bias is that i don't think a year has passed since that article was written in which it's not been posted in response to someone saying what about that paedo they burnt out/hung in newport/portsmouth etc. It's almost became expected - me and danny were, i think acting a little bit in expectation of where this was going and what was going to be posted.


Yup.  And it's true that I was more reacting to that history than actually reading the post properly, Whagwan.  You said the graffito happened.  You're right, it did.  I was already racing ahead to the "pitchforks and mobs" fiction that usually appears, but in this case did not.  I tender my apology.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 29, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> However, you can be involved in helping build a reaction to this shit. There was an incident in north bristol last night - as result the people i work with politically are contacting local polish groups to see what help they want right now. I know damn well the poles here can mostly look after themselves physically but some visible public support and practical help if required immediately (if you know what i mean) is probably welcome. And everyone here using it to attack leavers - make sure you do the same at the very least.


Precisely.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Oh no you don't.
> 
> You smeared Leave voters by association with Farage.  You did so on the grounds that he supposedly defended someone who once used the word "chinky."  I pointed out that, by the same logic, Remain voters could be smeared by association with Cameron, who is guilty of far worse than that by anyone's estimation (with the single silly exception of Coolfonz).
> 
> So it was a pretty daft thing for you to say really.



Yes our government has done terrible things but I will admit I am ashamed that we went to war in Iraq, bombed Syria, sold arms to Saudi Arabia and other countries, that we are complicit in the murder of innocent men, women and children. Leave voters should at least admit that they have had an impact on making racism more acceptable in this country. Or would you rather stick your head in the sand because your personal feelings are more important.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> People jumped into bed with Nigel and the country has come away with a nasty disease. I just didn't see any concerted effort to distance leave from UKIP when it should have been a priority.



Given how small comparatively the platform was for the left opposed to remain I'd say there was a concerted effort to distance leave from Farage.  But that was opposed, over and over again, by people like you.  You are still doing it now.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes our government has done terrible things but I will admit I am ashamed that we went to war in Iraq, bombed Syria, sold arms to Saudi Arabia and other countries, that we are complicit in the murder of innocent men, women and children. Leave voters should at least admit that they have had an impact on making racism more acceptable in this country. Or would you rather stick your head in the sand because your personal feelings are more important.



I strongly disagree that the Leave vote has made racism more acceptable.  As I mentioned on another thread, I and many others voted Leave because we want to see *more *immigration, not less.

You should be wary of accepting the liberal media's caricature of Leave voters.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 29, 2016)

Needs to be taken to another thread people.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Given how small comparatively the platform was for the left opposed to remain I'd say there was a concerted effort to distance leave from Farage.  But that was opposed, over and over again, by people like you.  You are still doing it now.



Trouble is leave voters have in effect voted for BJ, who will probably now use Farrage as a scapegoat to allow him to go back on leave promises, leaving a lot of angry people.


----------



## treelover (Jun 29, 2016)

Great to see Yvette Cooper being so compassionate towards EU nationals, shame she wasn't so towards sick and disabled people when she was NL Works and Pensions Secretary and made the WCA even more brutal, introducing the 'invisible wheelchair' test.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes our government has done terrible things but I will admit I am ashamed that we went to war in Iraq, bombed Syria, sold arms to Saudi Arabia and other countries, that we are complicit in the murder of innocent men, women and children. Leave voters should at least admit that they have had an impact on making racism more acceptable in this country. Or would you rather stick your head in the sand because your personal feelings are more important.


I think it might be useful to distinguish between aspects of the leave campaign, that could be argued to have excited racist sentiments, and people (here) voting Leave.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> Trouble is leave voters have in effect voted for BJ, who will probably now use Farrage as a scapegoat to allow him to go back on leave promises, leaving a lot of angry people.



Must be great being able to predict the future, any tips for the Euros?


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

I made another thread for anyone who wants to discuss whether the leave campaign should have tried to distance itself from UKIP.

Not sure how to link it here but I'm sure you will find it if you want.


----------



## treelover (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> Hi all,
> I was a little shocked yesterday to discover that some people think there is an excuse for racism, even here on Urban, that there are people that think violence is an acceptable reaction to what is happening at the moment.
> 
> Leave voters, you supported a cause and campaign of which Nigel Farrage and his supporters were a major part. Last year he defended a UKIP MP who used the word chinky. You knew you were colluding with racists. Where was the campaign to eject him and his followers 17,000,000 of you just let this happen and many of you knew the potential consequences.
> ...



I wonder what you think of the hundreds, maybe thousands of sick and disabled people who have died as a consequence of the welfare reforms, who have had been screamed at in the street, 'spaz, dole scrounger, fraudster' etc, some even murdered, no mass marches for them.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> I wonder what you think of the hundreds, maybe thousands of sick and disabled people who have died as a consequence of the welfare reforms, who have had been screamed at in the street, 'spaz, dole scrounger, fraudster' etc, some even murdered, no mass marches for them.



I think it is terrible but I also don't know what it has to do with this thread. I also think you know nothing about my views on, or experience of, disability personally or through friends and family so am slightly confused as to why you posted this.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I think it might be useful to distinguish between aspects of the leave campaign, that could be argued to have excited racist sentiments, and people (here) voting Leave.



Wot, subtlety?  Fine distinctions?  Yer in the wrong place guv.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Wot, subtlety?  Fine distinctions?  Yer in the wrong place guv.


Quite possibly.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> I wonder what you think of the hundreds, maybe thousands of sick and disabled people who have died as a consequence of the welfare reforms, who have had been screamed at in the street, 'spaz, dole scrounger, fraudster' etc, some even murdered, no mass marches for them.



From an earlier post of mine 

I saw my niece who was racially abused last night. She was with her daughter who has touretts, which manifests itself as hand and shoulder ticks, along with little shrieks. On the morning of the leave win a group of guys waited until they were getting off the train and sang the jungle book song, making noises and physical monkey impressions. Previously they had been loudly talking about getting their country back. I was already angry about this but when I heard the full details last night I cried.


----------



## Whagwan (Jun 29, 2016)

Call me a chinky to my face I fucking dare you.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 29, 2016)

Blimey. It's all gone tits-up in here!


----------



## catinthehat (Jun 29, 2016)

http://www.ici.is/assets/ERAW_-_Everyday_racism_in_the_workplace.pdf

The idea that minor things - looks, tuts, 'matey, not meaning anything by it, they don't mind' names has no impact is not really the case.  Some research linked above that we did last year on casual/everyday racism.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> _what you did
> _
> wag it any harder it'll drop off


Alright Paul Heaton settle down 




Anju said:


> I made another thread for anyone who wants to discuss whether the leave campaign should have tried to distance itself from UKIP.
> 
> Not sure how to link it here but I'm sure you will find it if you want.





littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't get that from the post. I get that they are saying you need to take responsibility for what you did if you voted out when you realised that the potential consequences included this, what is being reported again and again on this thread.


I personally felt this was a potential consequence voting in too. Wouldn't they be angrier fascists then? A close remain wouldn't have seen these bastards off and you know it. Truth is hanging this entirely on an individual persons vote is wrong, the media stirred up anti immigration sentiment, we all tried to drag the conversation away from it and it's liberal-remain folks as well as the right that prevented this from happening- every counter point was BUT NIGEL FARAGE. And you wonder why the general campaign to most appeared toxic? The tone of the debate surely meant racist incidents were inevitable, but we can only guess at what a remain vote would have unleashed. 

We didn't stir up the hatred and it shouldn't frighten us into voting for something we don't believe in. So no, I'm not responsible. 


Anju said:


> Please don't do this. I posted something because I was unhappy with the lack of criticism of Farrage and UKIP during the campaign and then discovered that people actually seemed to think that some racism is an acceptable reaction to what our government has done to this country. It is not and if people are happy to excuse racism on political ideological grounds that are totally disconnected from peoples day to day experiences I am disgusted by that.
> 
> People jumped into bed with Nigel and the country has come away with a nasty disease. I just didn't see any concerted effort to distance leave from UKIP when it should have been a priority.


look stop saying we're in bed with Nigel Farage it's giving me the dry boak


----------



## JimW (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> ...
> look stop saying we're in bed with Nigel Farage it's giving me the dry boak


It was the fall-back film idea if Madonna turned it down.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> I think it is terrible but I also don't know what it has to do with this thread. I also think you know nothing about my views on, or experience of, disability personally or through friends and family so am slightly confused as to why you posted this.


To be fair everyone wonders why treelover posts


----------



## treelover (Jun 29, 2016)

Yeah right, lots of people on here think you are an anal obssessive ex public schoolboy(who despite everything can't leave the inculcated sense of superiority behind ) who appears to spend his entire life on here, frequently demeaning other peoples posts..

See, others can play at the nasty game, now grow up or fuck off.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> People jumped into bed with Nigel and the country has come away with a nasty disease.


See, you are _actually_ doing what that prick, andysays, _accused_ _me_ of doing the other day.

People who voted leave may have unwillingly contributed to the Farage cause as a by-product of the vote they casted, but that's a long way from "being in bed with [him]" which would require that they shared his politics or desired end-game.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> Yeah right, lots of people on here think you are an anal obssessive ex public schoolboy(who despite everything can't leave the inculcated sense of superiority behind ) who appears to spend his entire life on here, frequently demeaning other peoples posts..
> 
> See, others can play at the nasty game, now grow up or fuck off.


But what do you think? Why are you hiding behind other's opinions, have you none of your own? What was the point of your post?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2016)

In line with my post above before i was _civilly_ called a violent racist misogynist anyone who wants to help in bristol and has languages other than english, could you drop a line to bristolinternational@iww.org.uk please?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> But what do you think? Why are you hiding behind other's opinions, have you none of your own? What was the point of your post?


treelover any chance of a reply? E2a: no surprise, t/l utterly craven


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Nonsense.  Wars have more serious causes than that.
> 
> FFS, how did we get into such a state that using the word "chinky" is considered a crime against humanity?



You, dwyer, are a crime against humanity.

And despite your furious backpeddling on the use of that word, despite trying to paint those who called you up on your racism as racist...

Despite claming "sensible people" aren't hurt by that word...

We all know the score.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Racist wanker who thinks Chinese people all live in restaurants.  Or laundries.


Fucking doing it again you dodgy cunt. What are you in China for anyway? Buying a wife you infected prick?

Go to the Chinese embassy in the UK, go to a Chinese restaurant in the UK, go to Chinatown, go to the lines of Chinese the warehouses outside Madrid and Valencia in Spain, go to the Chinese shops in Madrid, Barcelona, Valenica. Go anywhere where there might be a concentration of Chinese, Hong Kong folk in the EU and explain to them why saying "chinky" is a "triviality" you fucking wrongun.


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 29, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Fucking doing it again you dodgy cunt. What are you in China for anyway? Buying a wife you infected prick?
> 
> Go to the Chinese embassy in the UK, go to a Chinese restaurant in the UK, go to Chinatown, go to the lines of Chinese the warehouses outside Madrid and Valencia in Spain, go to the Chinese shops in Madrid, Barcelona, Valenica. Go anywhere where there might be a concentration of Chinese, Hong Kong folk in the EU and explain to them why saying "chinky" is a "triviality" you fucking wrongun.


In many of those places you may not get the truth. I used to work in a Chinese and was (and still am) friends with the family running it . None of them seemed to mind the word some even used it themselves. It gave me the impression that they were cool with it (not my finest hour on a thread a decade or so ago). They were not.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 29, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Fucking doing it again you dodgy cunt. What are you in China for anyway? Buying a wife you infected prick?
> 
> Go to the Chinese embassy in the UK, go to a Chinese restaurant in the UK, go to Chinatown, go to the lines of Chinese the warehouses outside Madrid and Valencia in Spain, go to the Chinese shops in Madrid, Barcelona, Valenica. Go anywhere where there might be a concentration of Chinese, Hong Kong folk in the EU and explain to them why saying "chinky" is a "triviality" you fucking wrongun.



And yet you reduce Chinese women to the crude, misogynistic and racial view of Asian women as just poor things to fuck.

He's a globe-trotting prof, who likes to show off about the countries he drinks and bullshits in for more money than me, in-between winding people up on here.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 29, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> What are you in China for anyway? Buying a wife you infected prick?



Criticise dwyer all you like but please don't come out with shit like this.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Fucking doing it again you dodgy cunt. What are you in China for anyway? Buying a wife you infected prick?/QUOTE]
> 
> No no no.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> See, you are _actually_ doing what that prick, andysays, _accused_ _me_ of doing the other day.
> 
> People who voted leave may have unwillingly contributed to the Farage cause as a by-product of the vote they casted, but that's a long way from "being in bed with [him]" which would require that they shared his politics or desired end-game.



I will rephrase that. Nigel got into the bed but you didn't push him out. The next day Nigel is telling everyone you got down and dirty with him.  If you don't deny it people are going to assume you are together. Im pretty sure you would make it public that you did not and would not get it together.Apologies if you find the imagery disturbing.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 29, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Fucking doing it again you dodgy cunt. What are you in China for anyway? Buying a wife you infected prick?



Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> I will rephrase that. Nigel got into the bed but you didn't push him out. The next day Nigel is telling everyone you got down and dirty with him.  If you don't deny it people are going to assume you are together. Im pretty sure you would make it public that you did not and would not get it together.Apologies if you find the imagery disturbing.


You clearly think Nigel credible


----------



## Sirena (Jun 29, 2016)

Did anyone mention that most of the initial lurid press headlines spring from a police report that reported crimes in the days following the Referendum result had gone up 57%.

The figures came from True Vision a police-funded website where the public reports hate crimes.  In four heated days the reports rose from 54 (corresponding days the previous year) to 85.  In a population of 60+ million.

Just to put things in perspective.


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2016)

I posted this elsewhere too but for it to be happening in Stockwell is particularly depressing


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 29, 2016)

Sirena said:


> Did anyone mention that most of the initial lurid press headlines spring from a police report that reported crimes in the days following the Referendum result had gone up 57%.
> 
> The figures came from True Vision a police-funded website where the public reports hate crimes.  In four heated days the reports rose from 54 (corresponding days the previous year) to 85.  In a population of 60+ million.
> 
> Just to put things in perspective.


That's a good point. However, I take reports on here far more seriously. When I combine them with my own experience seeing increased tensions/dirty looks around where I live, that starts to build a very worrying picture. Low-level stuff that rarely gets reported, so far.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> I will rephrase that. Nigel got into the bed but you didn't push him out. The next day Nigel is telling everyone you got down and dirty with him.  If you don't deny it people are going to assume you are together. Im pretty sure you would make it public that you did not and would not get it together.Apologies if you find the imagery disturbing.



We don't have a platform. Don't shout at us for not having a platform. Stand with us, we all want the same thing- more the merrier and the stronger right?


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> I will rephrase that. Nigel got into the bed but you didn't push him out. The next day Nigel is telling everyone you got down and dirty with him.  If you don't deny it people are going to assume you are together.


Well I voted remain, but plenty of the 'leave merchants' have denied sympathies with Farage and his ilk. 

You accusing _absolutely nailed-on anti-fascists_ of being "in bed" with the far right is as unproductive as it is untrue.

A far better position to come from is to ask if the pursuit of their aims warrant the the _unintended advancement_ that their votes have given others.

They'll still argue with you but at least you won't be calling anti-racists, racists; which is stupid.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 29, 2016)

Yup, is it worth it?
Is an increase in racist attacks collateral damage?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Yup, is it worth it?
> Is an increase in racist attacks collateral damage?


These divisions have been festering for some time- last year when I organised refugee stuff got all sorts like "if there's a terrorist attack hope these do gooders get hit first" what emboldened them? 

Anti immigrant sentiment being centre of media all year was enough to cause problems whatever the result.

If we were to sit on our hands it might not rock the boat but it doesn't mean the problems have dissapeared..... Nobody has straight answers but can we not just come together  tackle the problems instead of moaning at people for trying to address the underlying causes.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> These divisions have been festering for some time-


Yes they have. And in the last five days they have become a great deal worse. 

We don't have an alternative history to prove this, but I suspect that 'whatever the result' isn't right. _This result_ has made things worse.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> These divisions have been festering for some time- last year when I organised refugee stuff got all sorts like "if there's a terrorist attack hope these do gooders get hit first" what emboldened them?
> 
> Anti immigrant sentiment being centre of media all year was enough to cause problems whatever the result.
> 
> If we were to sit on our hands it might not rock the boat but it doesn't mean the problems have dissapeared..... Nobody has straight answers but can we not just come together  tackle the problems instead of moaning at people for trying to address the underlying causes.


Anything that existed before as a vague notion has now been magnified. People that thought they may have sympathised with some far right views have now had any doubt removed.

Foreigners are certainly feeling that the country has lurched to the right.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

..


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Anything that existed before has now been magnified. People that thought they may have sympathised with some far right views have now had any doubt removed.
> 
> The country has lurched to the right, whichever way you look at it.


A lurch legitimised for those receptive to such messages by a range of 'respectable' politicians eg hoey, stuart lining up alongside the likes of the racists farage and johnson, elevating sentiments previously kept private into opinions people could say with scant danger of objection or vilification. We've come a long and sad way from the first woman racist on tram video of a year or three back


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 29, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Anything that existed before as a vague notion has now been magnified. People that thought they may have sympathised with some far right views have now had any doubt removed.
> 
> The country has lurched to the right, whichever way you look at it.


As and example, the racist Nigel Farage stands in the European Parliament at centre stage and makes a speech in which he purports confidently to represent Britain. That speech then goes straight onto the BBC front page. Anyone who thought a leave vote would see a neutering of Farage and UKIP was very very badly mistaken, unfortunately.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 29, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> The country has lurched to the right, whichever way you look at it.



I'm not sure I agree with this. The racists have become louder for sure, but not greater in number. This may sound like nitpicking for anyone feeling the effect of it, but there are different implications. Basically, it means we can force the racists to slither back under the rock they came from by being robust in our response as a society. It's not a growing far-right movement_,_ and its not the country as a while making a 'lurch to the right'. The problem shouldn't be understated, of course, but neither are we on the verge of an English Reich.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> Listen, you're right it has. But there's no point pushing this on those of us who are against it. Point made! We are all sensitive enough that we feel sickened by this.
> 
> 
> I don't think this helps on an England wide context - but I'll offer it in case it does- but in Orkney last year people were really playing up the minority racist comments, like going on and on and on about them. I found that counterproductive because I was the person having to give a statement to the paper a week later, my response was to amplify the hundreds that were absolutely fucking amazing in terms of help getting aid from places to my house and support. *I stressed that the racists didn't represent the majority. *
> ...


Fair dos, and you're right, they don't. This is a thread about racist attacks though, and it's hard not to feel pretty fucked off at the moment about that.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fair dos, and you're right, they don't. This is a thread about racist attacks though, and it's hard not to feel pretty fucked off at the moment about that.


I know I'm trying to help is all. I'm losing sleep over it genuinely, not trying to play it down


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fair dos, and you're right, they don't. This is a thread about racist attacks though, and it's hard not to feel pretty fucked off at the moment about that.


And about  smearing people as violent racist misogynists


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> I know I'm trying to help is all. I'm losing sleep over it genuinely, not trying to play it down


 

props to you for what you did.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> And about  smearing people as violent racist misogynists



Dinnae fash. Je suis butchersapron


----------



## ska invita (Jun 29, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Yup, is it worth it?
> Is an increase in racist attacks collateral damage?


Thats exactly what they are - non-white english people, and migrants specifically, are both the punch bag and collateral damage of the campaign and of Exit.

Whats happening was predicted loud and clear and was obvious for all to see. Normally invoking Hitler in an argument is seen as taking it comedically too far, but when Yanis Varoufakis was talking about the return of the 1930s it was no joke at all, and it still isnt. The brave thing for Lexiters to do would be to admit that is the case but that they decided it was worth it for grander strategic reasons and the overall good.

I understand why no-one wants to say that in public. Some of what's been said instead i've found embarrassing, disingenuous and insulting, but I cant bring myself to get into it with anyone, right now at least. I'd like to come back to it though.

And as to the 57% rise on some shit police website no-one has ever heard of (54 reports up to 85 lol) being any kind of benchmark, of course its not a 57% rise in reality.... Its off the scale compared to normal, and of a very particular tone.

Some good news - I have heard of two local residents groups in North London areas that are setting up support networks - going around to shop keepers and the like and giving out a phone number for if something happens and generally trying to act supportive and let people know the community is behind them and wont tolerate this. A great move, and exactly what is needed - costs nothing and is replicable across the country.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Thats exactly what they are - non-white english people, and migrants specifically, are both the punch bag and collateral damage of the campaign and of Exit.
> 
> Whats happening was predicted loud and clear and was obvious for all to see. Normally invoking Hitler in an argument is seen as taking it comedically too far, but when Yanis Varoufakis was talking about the return of the 1930s it was no joke at all, and it still isnt. The brave thing for Lexiters to do would be to admit that is the case but that they decided it was worth it for grander strategic reasons and the overall good.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but neither me or you knew it would be this bad a few days after the vote. Don't pretend you did.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> As and example, the racist Nigel Farage stands in the European Parliament at centre stage and makes a speech in which he purports confidently to represent Britain. That speech then goes straight onto the BBC front page. Anyone who thought a leave vote would see a neutering of Farage and UKIP was very very badly mistaken, unfortunately.


Yeh anyone who expected it to happen within a week. Let's see where future elections take us and at that point you'll see where ukip are.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> I'm sorry, but neither me or you knew it would be this bad a few days after the vote. Don't pretend you did.



Speak for yourself. I think you will find that many people here made it absolutely clear, repeatedly, that they had concerns/fears this would happen. Probably the same people who have sensed it coming right through the whole divisive referendum campaign. 

You may not have imagined it or felt it but you out of out suggesting others are pretending.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> A lurch legitimised for those receptive to such messages..





ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm not sure I agree with this....



You are both correct and I have edited my post since your replies.

It's important to discuss things in precise terms and I was wrong, but I stand by my (now edited) comment.

Butcher's, Pilch, and LBJ, are the most scholastic lefties on these boards and they all disagree. 

What hope for us thickos?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> You are both correct and I have edited my post since your replies.
> 
> It's important to discuss things in precise terms and I was wrong, but I stand by my (now edited) comment.
> 
> Butcher's, Pilch, and LBJ, are the most scholastic lefties on these boards and they all disagree. What hope for us thickos?


You've not heard of idiots savant then


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Speak for yourself. I think you will find that many people here made it absolutely clear, repeatedly, that they had concerns/fears this would happen. Probably the same people who have sensed it coming right through the whole divisive referendum campaign.
> 
> You may not have imagined it or felt it but you out of out suggesting others are pretending.


Yeh a search for 'brexit racist' turns up some posts going back to April


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Speak for yourself. I think you will find that many people here made it absolutely clear, repeatedly, that they had concerns/fears this would happen.


i meant the sheer scale of attacks wasn't predicted, it tended to be more worries about a boost for ukip. The post seemed to imply we voted for exactly this.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> i meant the sheer scale of attacks wasn't predicted, it tended to be more worries about a boost for ukip. *The post seemed to imply we voted for exactly this.*



No it didn't.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> No it didn't.


Im struggling to cut and paste phone buggered but look back and it said lexiters knew and had to admit that we'd voted for these consequences but thought they were worth it- not true. No one knew. Could only predict.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> i meant the sheer scale of attacks wasn't predicted, it tended to be more worries about a boost for ukip. The post seemed to imply we voted for exactly this.


Tbh many of the reported occurrences seem to be incidents of foul and abusive language rather than assaults. I always understood a racist attack to be an assault with racial motives rather than racist abuse: although the effects on someone from abuse can be similar to assault e.g. reluctance to go out. Both serious, neither to be taken lightly, but rather than conflate the two perhaps they should be counted separately.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

I think i shall eject from the chat, i don't want to add Tory leverage against Syrian refugees either, so let's take on the racists here with fists if necessary and I'm sorry it's come to this.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Well I voted remain, but plenty of the 'leave merchants' have denied sympathies with Farage and his ilk.
> 
> You accusing _absolutely nailed-on anti-fascists_ of being "in bed" with the far right is as unproductive as it is untrue.
> 
> ...



The issue for me is that I am not politically literate but I saw this coming a while ago. I find it hard to believe that people who are very politically aware did not see it. If they did see it and ignored it then that is unacceptable, to put others in danger of harm for your own political gain. If they did see it and now deny that I don't even know how to describe them.

I am a reggae music fan and have taken a few non racist friends to dances or concerts. Sometimes the level of discomfort they have shown has made me believe that they do hold some deep seated racist fears. Saying you are not racist whilst holding some racist anxieties deep down is not uncommon.  This was what I initially said was going on with two posters when they agreed with an article that proposed racism was somehow justified for people who felt disenfranchised.  The only people I know of who would agree that racism can have some justification are those who have some racist thoughts and feel guilty about that.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> The issue for me is that I am not politically literate but I saw this coming a while ago. I find it hard to believe that people who are very politically aware did not see it. If they did see it and ignored it then that is unacceptable, to put others in danger of harm for your own political gain. If they did see it and now deny that I don't even know how to describe them.
> 
> I am a reggae music fan and have taken a few non racist friends to dances or concerts. Sometimes the level of discomfort they have shown has made me believe that they do hold some deep seated racist fears. Saying you are not racist whilst holding some racist anxieties deep down is not uncommon.  This was what I initially said was going on with two posters when they agreed with an article that proposed racism was somehow justified for people who felt disenfranchised.  The only people I know of who would agree that racism can have some justification are those who have some racist thoughts and feel guilty about that.


If they are anything like me they ain't gonna move themselves to dance unless rum has been teen.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> If they are anything like me they ain't gonna move themselves to dance unless rum has been teen.


But everyone here appears to aware of racism, where they differ is tactically.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> If they are anything like me they ain't gonna move themselves to dance unless rum has been teen.



Rum before leafing home, rum en route, and rum in the dance. Of course.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> The only people I know of who would agree that racism can have some justification are those who have some racist thoughts and feel guilty about that.


What about people who have racist thoughts and don't feel guilty about it?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> This was what I initially said was going on with two posters when _*they agreed with an article that proposed racism was somehow justified for people who felt disenfranchised*_



Jesus, Mary and Joseph! Noone has done this, ffs.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> What about people who have racist thoughts and don't feel guilty about it?



I'm sure you know.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> I'm sure you know.


I only know what you say on this subject


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> Rum before leafing home, rum en route, and rum in the dance. Of course.


thats how it's done


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I only know what you say you know on this subject.




They are happy racists.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> The issue for me is that I am not politically literate but I saw this coming a while ago. I find it hard to believe that people who are very politically aware did not see it. If they did see it and ignored it then that is unacceptable, to put others in danger of harm for your own political gain. If they did see it and now deny that I don't even know how to describe them.



You're asking people to have predicted the future.  I might have predicted the result of a very close Remain victory would have been a huge upswing in organised far right activity, real gains in parliament for UKIP, and quite possibly organised racists launching physical attacks after abandoning any electroral route and going back to the streets - as they are already in many cases.  Of course this might not have happened either, but these wankers didn't just appear over the weekend, that's one thing we do know, and the racism both campaigns stoked up was unlikely to dissipate whatever the result.  I haven't noticed you condemning the racism on the Remain side by the way, the competitive toughness on immigration, the migrant's benefit cuts, the crowing that Brexit might even increase migration - that all played a part as well.

I'd say the point is how we stop it, not how we use it to score points and say I told you so.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 29, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Yup, is it worth it?
> Is an increase in racist attacks collateral damage?



These people didn't all magically turn racist on friday morning. The white liberal consensus that racism is no longer a real problem in the UK has taken a beating, and it needed one.

Remember when Ed Miliband was bullied into apologising for the number of Polish people the Blair/Brown government 'let in' to the UK? You had a leader of a major party adressing the nation, telling everyone that hundreds of thousands of people who have come here and built lives for themselves _and who can hear him speaking_, that allowing those lives to be lived in our country was a mistake. If that kind of shit is allowed to fly, if both the nation's major parties can shake hands on the idea that we've got too many immigrants, then why is anyone surprised that public attitudes reflect that?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 29, 2016)

If I were a conspiraloon type I might suggest that the tories had created UKIP as a sock puppet to drag the debate on immigration and integration rightwards while simultaneously making themselves look like they're on the reasonable side of things. They're not. The tories preside over a racist state, they use racist rhetoric and they have enacted overtly racist policies.

UKIP is a red herring. The tories run the government, ultimate culpability lies with them and with Labour for being little better while they were in power.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

smokedout said:


> You're asking people to have predicted the future.  I might have predicted the result of a very close Remain victory would have been a huge upswing in organised far right activity, real gains in parliament for UKIP, and quite possibly organised racists launching physical attacks after abandoning any electroral route and going back to the streets - as they are already in many cases.  Of course this might not have happened either, but these wankers didn't just appear over the weekend, that's one thing we do know, and the racism both campaigns stoked up was unlikely to dissipate whatever the result.  I haven't noticed you condemning the racism on the Remain side by the way, the competitive toughness on immigration, the migrant's benefit cuts, the crowing that Brexit might even increase migration - that all played a part as well.
> 
> I'd say the point is how we stop it, not how we use it to score points and say I told you so.



I


smokedout said:


> You're asking people to have predicted the future.  I might have predicted the result of a very close Remain victory would have been a huge upswing in organised far right activity, real gains in parliament for UKIP, and quite possibly organised racists launching physical attacks after abandoning any electroral route and going back to the streets - as they are already in many cases.  Of course this might not have happened either, but these wankers didn't just appear over the weekend, that's one thing we do know, and the racism both campaigns stoked up was unlikely to dissipate whatever the result.  I haven't noticed you condemning the racism on the Remain side by the way, the competitive toughness on immigration, the migrant's benefit cuts, the crowing that Brexit might even increase migration - that all played a part as well.
> 
> I'd say the point is how we stop it, not how we use it to score points and say I told you so.



I see your point. I did not really look at the remain campaign as that was my instinctive choice. At this point I am just sad that we live in a country where politicians use immigration and race to attract votes, and that it works.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Fucking doing it again you dodgy cunt. What are you in China for anyway? Buying a wife you infected prick?



Your vile abuse reflects only on yourself, and your disgracefully racist presuppositions.  I'd be quiet now if I were you.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Yup, is it worth it?
> Is an increase in racist attacks collateral damage?



I'd be wary of jumping to the conclusion that the increase in racist incidents has been caused by the Leave vote.  I suspect it would have been even worse had the vote been Remain.

But anyway, there's no way of knowing.  One thing that does seem certain though: any attempt to renege on or circumvent the result will cause a great deal of fury among the knuckleheads.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2016)

Anju said:


> I
> 
> 
> I see your point. I did not really look at the remain campaign as that was my instinctive choice. At this point I am just sad that we live in a country where politicians use immigration and race to attract votes, and that it works.



Actually it works just as well in the EU countries


----------



## Lurdan (Jun 29, 2016)

Sirena said:


> Did anyone mention that most of the initial lurid press headlines spring from a police report that reported crimes in the days following the Referendum result had gone up 57%.
> 
> The figures came from True Vision a police-funded website where the public reports hate crimes.  In four heated days the reports rose from 54 (corresponding days the previous year) to 85.  In a population of 60+ million.
> 
> Just to put things in perspective.


That would be a very interesting point if it were correct. But it isn't.

The press stories reporting this '57% rise' appeared on Monday. The first press reports of abuse linked to the outcome of the referendum appeared on Sunday. They were based on the same reports on social media which had led to this thread being started early on Saturday morning.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2016)

Lurdan said:


> That would be a very interesting point if it were correct. But it isn't.
> 
> The press stories reporting this '57% rise' appeared on Monday. The first press reports of abuse linked to the outcome of the referendum appeared on Sunday. They were based on the same reports on social media which had led to this thread being started early on Saturday morning.


Where has this 57% figure come from ?


----------



## Lurdan (Jun 29, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Where has this 57% figure come from ?


Stories like this one
Hate crime reports are up 57 per cent after the Brexit vote

It is an entirely meaningless statistic.


----------



## Cid (Jun 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh many of the reported occurrences seem to be incidents of foul and abusive language rather than assaults. I always understood a racist attack to be an assault with racial motives rather than racist abuse: although the effects on someone from abuse can be similar to assault e.g. reluctance to go out. Both serious, neither to be taken lightly, but rather than conflate the two perhaps they should be counted separately.



Assault need not actually involve attacking someone:

"An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force." (CPS)

I'm not quite sure that's what you're arguing around, but certainly the criminal offence can be committed without physical contact.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 29, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> Im struggling to cut and paste phone buggered but look back and it said lexiters knew and had to admit that we'd voted for these consequences but thought they were worth it- not true. No one knew. Could only predict.



EDIT - deleting my post - im tired out. I dont trust what im saying right now...maybe later


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2016)

Lurdan said:


> Stories like this one
> Hate crime reports are up 57 per cent after the Brexit vote
> 
> It is an entirely meaningless statistic.


So your disagreement isn't the figures and their source but that the media first got their story from social media and later the figures from True Vidion?


----------



## coley (Jun 30, 2016)

Anju said:


> Hi all,
> I was a little shocked yesterday to discover that some people think there is an excuse for racism, even here on Urban, that there are people that think violence is an acceptable reaction to what is happening at the moment.
> 
> Leave voters, you supported a cause and campaign of which Nigel Farrage and his supporters were a major part. Last year he defended a UKIP MP who used the word chinky. You knew you were colluding with racists. Where was the campaign to eject him and his followers 17,000,000 of you just let this happen and many of you knew the potential consequences.
> ...



I now think I understand what 'virtues signalling' is.
Now if someone can explain 'intersectionalist' ?
Ta.


----------



## coley (Jun 30, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes our government has done terrible things but I will admit I am ashamed that we went to war in Iraq, bombed Syria, sold arms to Saudi Arabia and other countries, that we are complicit in the murder of innocent men, women and children. Leave voters should at least admit that they have had an impact on making racism more acceptable in this country. Or would you rather stick your head in the sand because your personal feelings are more important.



Our govt? Well the one we have is Shyte, but it recommended remain, the previous ones, labour and the coalition ones were both in favour of 'remain' 
All of these administrations were guilty of your charges of getting involved in dubious wars, selling arms etc etc, plus pushing a neoliberal austerity regime, yet you seem to be trying to connect these actions with Brexit? 
Someone suggested you move your argument to a different thread! May I suggest a different dimension?


----------



## coley (Jun 30, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> I strongly disagree that the Leave vote has made racism more acceptable.  As I mentioned on another thread, I and many others voted Leave because we want to see *more *immigration, not less.
> 
> You should be wary of accepting the liberal media's caricature of Leave voters.



I would add to that, many of us leavers were totally disgusted by the EUs eagerness to erect fences and policies  In order to stop refugees entering the EU, and paying (and bribing) Turkey to act as a 'holding pen' for said refugees, 
I have never been a fan of the EU, but it has become a very dark and sinister institution since the EURO debacle, willing and eager to smash and dominate the weak in order to protect the elitist core.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 30, 2016)

is the new right wing Tory goverment going to change any of this aside from getting us out of Europe..


----------



## Lurdan (Jun 30, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> So your disagreement isn't the figures and their source but that the media first got their story from social media and later the figures from True Vidion?


Sirena stated that initial press stories were based on this report of a '57% increase'. I pointed out that this was incorrect. I also pointed out that discussion of the issue had begun here at Urban over 24 hours before any press reports. You asked where the 57% came from. Since Sirena had pointed this out in some detail in the post I quoted I linked to one of the press stories about it and stated that it was meaningless, by which I meant that it was pretty obviously worthless as a measure of what was taking place. Something that might account for why, as far as I can see, no one had mentioned it on this thread before Sirena brought it up.

Not entirely sure if that answers your question. Happy to clarify.


----------



## coley (Jun 30, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Fucking doing it again you dodgy cunt. What are you in China for anyway? Buying a wife you infected prick?
> 
> Go to the Chinese embassy in the UK, go to a Chinese restaurant in the UK, go to Chinatown, go to the lines of Chinese the warehouses outside Madrid and Valencia in Spain, go to the Chinese shops in Madrid, Barcelona, Valenica. Go anywhere where there might be a concentration of Chinese, Hong Kong folk in the EU and explain to them why saying "chinky" is a "triviality" you fucking wrongun.


Fuck me sideways, reported on so many levels, I didn't know where to start, Dwyer is a wind up merchant and often a prick, but this is totally off the map!


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 30, 2016)

Lurdan said:


> Sirena stated that initial press stories were based on this report of a '57% increase'. I pointed out that this was incorrect. I also pointed out that discussion of the issue had begun here at Urban over 24 hours before any press reports. You asked where the 57% came from. Since Sirena had pointed this out in some detail in the post I quoted I linked to one of the press stories about it and stated that it was meaningless, by which I meant that it was pretty obviously worthless as a measure of what was taking place. Something that might account for why, as far as I can see, no one had mentioned it on this thread before Sirena brought it up.
> 
> Not entirely sure if that answers your question. Happy to clarify.



so are you saying its not going on and false reporting


----------



## treelover (Jun 30, 2016)

Shocking, many of these accusations on this thread are, some temp bans are in order.


----------



## coley (Jun 30, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Actually it works just as well in the EU countries


Or more so.


----------



## Lurdan (Jun 30, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> so are you saying its not going on and false reporting


I'd hope that what I meant was fairly clear from what I wrote and frankly I'm a little baffled that it could be read as implying what you are suggesting.

It is blindingly obvious that there has a been an increase of incidents of racist abuse and assault since the result of the referendum was announced. The exact scale of that increase in relation to the general level of 'everyday racism' is unclear, not least because there is no accurate measure of that 'general level'. It would be nice to hope that this is a temporary spike like the spike in incidents of violent domestic abuse during and after big sporting fixtures. But even if that turns out to be the case it might still mean that the 'general level' of 'everyday racism' had increased.

Any suggestion that the increase in abuse and assault over the last few days was simply hype would be both absurd and contemptible. How bad things are is as yet unknown.

As for the people attempting to play things up or play things down because they consider that the 'political issues' involved are more important than the fact the abuse is taking place - perhaps it's as well that I'm struggling to find words to express what I think.


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Fucking doing it again you dodgy cunt. What are you in China for anyway? Buying a wife you infected prick?


Crossed the line, there. Please don't do it again.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 30, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Fucking doing it again you dodgy cunt. What are you in China for anyway? Buying a wife you infected prick?


Trying to catch up on this thread.  Jesus it all went wrong, didn't it?

This is not how you disagree with people.


----------



## Dan U (Jun 30, 2016)

British Movement posters spotted and ripped down in Reigate near where I live - I won't link to the image as it is not nice but it is very much 'send em all back'

Number of people commented the local Tory MP about it on Twitter but old Crispin Blunt seems more interested in tweeting about Boris


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 30, 2016)

ska invita said:


> EDIT - deleting my post - im tired out. I dont trust what im saying right now...maybe later


Fair enough I'd been on the wine. I think I'm trying to sound practical but it looks flippant. Sorry if I offended.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 30, 2016)

Dan U said:


> British Movement posters spotted and ripped down in Reigate near where I live - I won't link to the image as it is not nice but it is very much 'send em all back'
> 
> Number of people commented the local Tory MP about it on Twitter but old Crispin Blunt seems more interested in tweeting about Boris



Watch out for razor blades.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 30, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> Fair enough I'd been on the wine. I think I'm trying to sound practical but it looks flippant. Sorry if I offended.


No mate, i wasnt offended, and im not interested in a witch hunt. I do think there is something important to talk about here, things to consider for us all.  Ive got sympathy with what Anju is setting out .... Im going to sit on this for a few days , digest whats been said and come back to it. Its been manic the last week or so and as theres a fair amount of subtlety to this and i want to be calm and precise about what we're talking about...hard to do with sleep backlog and in between a working day.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 30, 2016)

ska invita said:


> No mate, i wasnt offended, and im not interested in a witch hunt. I do think there is something important to talk about here, things to consider for us all.  Ive got sympathy with what Anju is setting out .... Im going to sit on this for a few days , digest whats been said and come back to it. Its been manic the last week or so and as theres a fair amount of subtlety to this and i want to be calm and precise about what we're talking about...hard to do with sleep backlog and in between a working day.


 get some sleep and come back fighting


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 30, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Fucking doing it again you dodgy cunt. What are you in China for anyway? Buying a wife you infected prick?




Noooo; that's not the way to counter the apologist for racism. You can do better than that. That kind of talk is for people like ern and Capitally Racist


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Noooo; that's not the way to counter the apologist for racism.



Neither is this:



krtek a houby said:


> Just what I thought. Cowardly white little englander.





krtek a houby said:


> Fuck off white boy.





krtek a houby said:


> You're not even human, white boy


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 30, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Neither is this:



Not my finest hour, for sure. But I stick by the little englander epithet as long as people keep denouncing those who voted to remain as liberals, middle class etc etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Not my finest hour, for sure. But I stick by the little englander epithet as long as people keep denouncing those who voted to remain as liberals, middle class etc etc.


So you, on a thread about racial abuse, respond to political criticisms, criticisms of a set of views, with abuse based on the colour of a posters skin? Then boast that you're going to continue to do so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Not my finest hour, for sure. But I stick by the little englander epithet as long as people keep denouncing those who voted to remain as liberals, middle class etc etc.


By doing so, if you reiterate the "fuck off white boy" sentiment you likely hasten your permanent departure from this site. Is that what you want?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 30, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> So you, on a thread about racial abuse, respond to political criticisms , criticisms of a set of views, with abuse based on the colour of a posters skin? Then boast that you're going to continue to do so.



For a change I'm going to reply to your "I know better than you" spiel. I said, I'd use the term little englander again. I did not say I'd mention skin color again. It was wrong of me to do so in the first place and it was a knee jerk reaction and I APOLOGISE UNRESERVEDLY FOR CAUSING OFFENCE.

Little Englander, petty patriot, uber nationalist, flag waving tosser - all valid for the voters who play down the worries of the remain camp and call us liberals, thickos and middle class. And not all leave voters are racist; obviously. Jut to clarify. Again.

Now - please do me a favour; don't ever - EVER address my posts again. Don't mention me, don't pick apart my every utterance. You and your acolyte nearly drove me to the brink over the last few years and I'm mentally exhausted by your enless sniping and carping.

Thank you.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> By doing so, if you reiterate the "fuck off white boy" sentiment you likely hasten your permanent departure from this site. Is that what you want?



Explained above. Now, please, please, please - I BEG YOU, leave me the fuck alone. Don't mention me ever again, don't refer to me, don't comment on my posts.

Leave me alone. Thank you.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> For a change I'm going to reply to your "I know better than you" spiel. I said, I'd use the term little englander again. I did not say I'd mention skin color again. It was wrong of me to do so in the first place and it was a knee jerk reaction and I APOLOGISE UNRESERVEDLY FOR CAUSING OFFENCE.
> 
> Little Englander, petty patriot, uber nationalist, flag waving tosser - all valid for the voters who play down the worries of the remain camp and call us liberals, thickos and middle class. And not all leave voters are racist; obviously. Jut to clarify. Again.
> 
> ...


In fact, the only example of racism i've seen on this site regarding this vote - apart from the now banned stormfronter type -  has been from you, the most fervent supporter of remain i've encountered on here. Anyway, i should have known better than to reply to your posts.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 30, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> In fact, the only example of racism i've seen on this site regarding this vote - apart from the now banned stormfronter type -  has been from you, the most fervent supporter of remain i've encountered on here. Anyway, i should have known better than to reply to your posts.



What part of leave me alone, don't you understand?

Anybody who knows me, knows I am not a racist. But if you want to up the ante and portray me as such, go ahead. You and your acolyte have to get your jollies somehow.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 30, 2016)

And of course, not a single comment about his use of "non white". Or the poster who thinks it's ok, a jolly wheeze, to use the term "chinky".

But no - round on the easiest target you can. You filth.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Explained above. Now, please, please, please - I BEG YOU, leave me the fuck alone. Don't mention me ever again, don't refer to me, don't comment on my posts.
> 
> Leave me alone. Thank you.


Yeh, while you do me so I will you.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Not my finest hour, for sure. But I stick by the little englander epithet as long as people keep denouncing those who voted to remain as liberals, middle class etc etc.



I dare you to go onto a Welsh housing estate and proclaim that everyone who voted Leave is a Litle Englander


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2016)

smokedout said:


> I dare you to go onto a Welsh housing estate and proclaim that everyone who voted Leave is a Litle Englander


Or up the shankhill


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2016)

Or Hartlepool.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 30, 2016)

smokedout said:


> I dare you to go onto a Welsh housing estate and proclaim that everyone who voted Leave is a Litle Englander



I dare you to go on a London housing estate and proclaim that everyone who voted remain is a smug, middle class liberal.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Or up the shankhill



I've been up the Shankhill and the Falls. Now leave me THE FUCK alone.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 30, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Or Hartlepool.



I WILL FUCKING TOP MYSELF IF YOU TWO DON'T LEAVE ME ALONE.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 30, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> is the new right wing Tory goverment going to change any of this aside from getting us out of Europe..



Two points, the Tory government is already right wing, worst case scenario and Boris wins the leadership, something thats looking increasingly unlikely then we have as Prime Minister a socially liberal toff who lives in Islington, is ruthlessly pro-free market but other than that swings with the political wind in whatever direction likely to give him the most power.  Same as the last cunt then.

Second point is that Cameron was going to resign anyway before the next election, probably sooner rather than later, he hasn't looked like he wanted the job for a while now.  So this leadership contest would have happened anyway, and a Remain vote would have hardly pushed the Tory membership to the left.  Not suggesting you think this, but the idea that Leave will cause the most right wing government ever in history is nonsense.

And perhaps a third point, the Tories lurching to the right, with an unelected Prime Minister getting bounced all over by Brussels in the negotiations and UKIP probably not going anywhere for the forseeable, probably gives the best possible chance of a Labour victory in 2020.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2016)

Note: I didn't reply to krtek. He went out of his way to reply to me to pretend that i replied to him. This stuff is not on.


----------



## JimW (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I WILL FUCKING TOP MYSELF IF YOU TWO DON'T LEAVE ME ALONE.


Don't harm yourself, but c'mon, you can't expect to comment in a thread and not be replied to, and here you've quoted something not in reply to you.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2016)

JimW said:


> Don't harm yourself, but c'mon, you can't expect to comment in a thread and not be replied to, and here you've quoted something not in reply to you.


I've reported that post of his - something needs doing about his behaviour this last week. It's not good for anyone at all  least of all himself, and it's not good for the boards to have/allow a poster to threaten to kill himself if someone posts something they don't like.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> And of course, not a single comment about his use of "non white". Or the poster who thinks it's ok, a jolly wheeze, to use the term "chinky".
> 
> But no - round on the easiest target you can. You filth.



You were wrongly and (knowingly so) portraying me as a racist.  You called me a UKIP collaborator after assuming (wrongly) that I had voted.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 30, 2016)

JimW said:


> Don't harm yourself, but c'mon, you can't expect to comment in a thread and not be replied to, and here you've quoted something not in reply to you.



Desperate times etc. I deserved to be taken to task for the "white boy" comment, even if it was in reply to seventh bullet's ugly "non white" comment. But two wrongs don't make a right.

It's not that I can't take criticism. It's that the great satan and his laughing imp have been on my case for years. Even when I (or a mod) put them on ignore. I've begged them to leave me alone. It's not them being critical for the sake of it - it's a fucking game to them. I can do without bullies, I've had enough of them all my fucking life.

Sorry for derail.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 30, 2016)

.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 30, 2016)

Can this STOP now please?  It's way out of hand.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 30, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> You were wrongly and (knowingly so) portraying me as a racist.  You called me a UKIP collaborator after assuming (wrongly) that I had voted.



You used the term "non white" - so, I fought back. Clumsily, I admit but there you go.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You used the term "non white" - so, I fought back. Clumsily, I admit but there you go.



You were portraying me as a right-wing UKIP type before I used that term (clumsily and innocently).  Before you were even aware of my personal life.

You attack people then love to play the victim.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Desperate times etc. I deserved to be taken to task for the "white boy" comment, even if it was in reply to seventh bullet's ugly "non white" comment. But two wrongs don't make a right.
> 
> It's not that I can't take criticism. It's that the great satan and his laughing imp have been on my case for years. Even when I (or a mod) put them on ignore. I've begged them to leave me alone. It's not them being critical for the sake of it - it's a fucking game to them. I can do without bullies, I've had enough of them all my fucking life.
> 
> Sorry for derail.


Tbh from my pov you want it both ways, to refer to me while insisting I not refer to you - for example the vile references you made to me while we were on enforced ignore. Now, if you don't in any way mention, quote, allude to, or refer to me then I will do the same to you. I don't think you can but I would be happy to be proved wrong.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 30, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> You were portraying me as a right-wing UKIP type before I used that term (clumsily and innocently).  Before you were even aware of my personal life.
> 
> You attack people then love to play the victim.



You know fuck all about me or my life. I saw red when I saw the words "non white" so I replied to it.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You know fuck all about me or my life. I saw red when I saw the words "non white" so I replied to it.



You know fuck all about me or my life, but nevertheless you thought you would try and trash my personal relationship, didn't you?  With vile abuse.  That's why I came out with the kill yourself stuff, which was out of order, and I apologise unreservedly for that, but don't you dare try and blame me for your own bigoted outbursts.  Own your shit, stop playing the victim.


----------



## JimW (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Desperate times etc. I deserved to be taken to task for the "white boy" comment, even if it was in reply to seventh bullet's ugly "non white" comment. But two wrongs don't make a right.
> 
> It's not that I can't take criticism. It's that the great satan and his laughing imp have been on my case for years. Even when I (or a mod) put them on ignore. I've begged them to leave me alone. It's not them being critical for the sake of it - it's a fucking game to them. I can do without bullies, I've had enough of them all my fucking life.
> 
> Sorry for derail.


I think butchers is right that a response threatening self-harm is no good to anyone, and you have leapt in in a way that to be charitable is intemperate. Seventh bullet clearly didn't enjoy a really hostile reading of an innocent comment on his own personal circumstances. You will get heated and robust responses on this.forum but that's part of it's value IMO, and have to say I think the onus is on ourselves to bow out if it's too much.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 30, 2016)

Not gonna stop then? Nowt else going on so you'll re-beat each other with shitty sticks whilst others jeer from the sidelines?


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 30, 2016)

I didn't cover myself in glory, I was awful in my personally abusive response and again I am sorry for that.  That's it from me on this now.  I don't know why this has been brought back up, though.  I'm out of here.


----------



## JimW (Jun 30, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> I didn't cover myself in glory, I was awful in my personally abusive response and again I am sorry for that.  That's it from me on this now.  I don't know why this has been brought back up, though.  I'm out of here.


Hope.you don't mean the boards, value your contribution.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I WILL FUCKING TOP MYSELF IF YOU TWO DON'T LEAVE ME ALONE.


Perhaps you need to take a break from here.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I WILL FUCKING TOP MYSELF IF YOU TWO DON'T LEAVE ME ALONE.


Not OK. If you're suicidal, there are avenues to get help. Threatening it in order to control the way other people behave is completely out of order. Own it, and get some help.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 30, 2016)

JimW said:


> Hope.you don't mean the boards, value your contribution.



Nah, but thanks anyway. I meant this cross-thread beef and derailment.  That's the end of this shit for me, and I hope it is for krtek as well. He needs to take a break, and I don't mean that in a fake, sneery way. Our clash aside, taking other people's legitimate responses on thread discussions as deep personal attacks and threatening suicide in order to influence and/or manipulate the behaviour of other posters is leading only to more hurt all round. And I say that while feeling shit about how I responded to him last week, which was shameful.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 30, 2016)

Manchester African-Caribbean community centre closed after racist call - BBC News


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Explained above. Now, please, please, please - I BEG YOU, leave me the fuck alone. Don't mention me ever again, don't refer to me, don't comment on my posts.
> 
> Leave me alone. Thank you.



Thing is dude, you moan and whine like this when Butchers (or pretty much anyone) criticizes you--but a couple of posts earlier you called me "an apologist for racism."

I won't respond to you as you deserve, because you do seem mentally unstable to me.  But seriously, if you can't take it, don't dish it out.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 30, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I've reported that post of his - something needs doing about his behaviour this last week. It's not good for anyone at all  least of all himself, and it's not good for the boards to have/allow a poster to threaten to kill himself if someone posts something they don't like.



Fucking A.  We shouldn't have to deal with that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Utterly self-important, patronising, nonsense.



Well, it is phil, after all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes our government has done terrible things but I will admit I am ashamed that we went to war in Iraq, bombed Syria, sold arms to Saudi Arabia and other countries, that we are complicit in the murder of innocent men, women and children. Leave voters should at least admit that they have had an impact on making racism more acceptable in this country. Or would you rather stick your head in the sand because your personal feelings are more important.



You're only complicit if you believe that marking an "x" on a piece of paper every 5 years is actually democracy, and makes you part of the decision-making mechanism of government.
Guess what? "The Social Contract" that we imagine governs relations between the rulers and the rules: The rulers broke it long ago.


----------



## Anju (Jun 30, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're only complicit if you believe that marking an "x" on a piece of paper every 5 years is actually democracy, and makes you part of the decision-making mechanism of government.
> Guess what? "The Social Contract" that we imagine governs relations between the rulers and the rules: The rulers broke it long ago.



I wish we did have a more accountable system of government. Last week was my first time voting. 

I feel complicit because I have done nothing to stop this regardless of whether it is possible as part of the 'democratic process's or not.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2016)

Anju said:


> I wish we did have a more accountable system of government. Last week was my first time voting.
> 
> I feel complicit because I have done nothing to stop this regardless of whether it is possible as part of the 'democratic process's or not.



What *could* you have done to stop it, realistically?

Marches are very fulfilling for the marchers, but seldom achieve anything beyond a warm glow of satisfaction.

Engaging politically with our mainstream political parties is also useless. They have a party-line, and they will *always* toe it.

What you're left with is personal activism, and that takes time and commitment *if* you have an aim. 

If people are sick and fed up with feeling complicit with government decisions, then I'd gently suggest that we start agitating again for "recall" mechanisms that will allow us to call our local and national politicians to account for the decisions they make in our names.


----------



## Lurdan (Jun 30, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> If people are sick and fed up with feeling complicit with government decisions, then I'd gently suggest that we start agitating again for "recall" mechanisms that will allow us to call our local and national politicians to account for the decisions they make in our names.


A combination scaffold and bungee rope ?


----------



## treelover (Jun 30, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Desperate times etc. I deserved to be taken to task for the "white boy" comment, even if it was in reply to seventh bullet's ugly "non white" comment. But two wrongs don't make a right.
> 
> It's not that I can't take criticism. It's that the great satan and his laughing imp have been on my case for years. Even when I (or a mod) put them on ignore. I've begged them to leave me alone. It's not them being critical for the sake of it - it's a fucking game to them. I can do without bullies, I've had enough of them all my fucking life.
> 
> Sorry for derail.




Know the feeling, too many bullies on here, see the boards as their own domain.


----------



## Anju (Jun 30, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> What *could* you have done to stop it, realistically?
> 
> Marches are very fulfilling for the marchers, but seldom achieve anything beyond a warm glow of satisfaction.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what I could have done. The only march I have been on was the Iraq war.

Problem is that the media do have a huge part to play in deciding what people aware of.  There is virtually no coverage of Yemen, Syria, Iraq unless something that makes the government look like it is having an impact happens, like taking territory from ISIS.  This power was laid out in writing yesterday in the email from Mrs Vine. 

I suppose anything that will make politicians actually worry about what people think,  what you suggest would help.  Basically it would make being an MP like any other job. If you don't do the job you are hired for you may lose it.

An obligation to stick to manifesto, with funding for some areas ring fenced might help.  No more saying whatever you think will get you into power. 

Other than that things get a bit extreme. Maybe body cams with live feed. Clocking in and out. Fill out time sheets.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 30, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Thing is dude, you moan and whine like this when Butchers (or pretty much anyone) criticizes you--but a couple of posts earlier you called me "an apologist for racism."
> 
> I won't respond to you as you deserve, because you do seem mentally unstable to me.  But seriously, if you can't take it, don't dish it out.


You really are a horrific piece of shit aren't you.
You call calling someone "chinky" "a triviality" you get called out. You try and call me racist as I suggest you go explain yourself in your local Chinese restaurant (where you may note you might find a concentration of British Chinese/HK folk who would be very interested in your views). Of course that is _terribly_ racist, rah rah what, rather than using the word "chinky" of course. 
You then whine when you get abuse, and report my posts - hahahahah - you internet weirdo.
Then you chip in to some guy who, for some reason known only to him, is posting about topping himself and call him "mentally unstable," after saying "I won't respond to you."
What a worthless piece of dust you are.

Anyway, sorry if what I said before hurt your ickle feelings. How is your single-middle-aged-white-guy-in-Asia holiday going? Tiring I bet.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 30, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> How is your single-middle-aged-white-guy-in-Asia holiday going? Tiring I bet.



This is the bit you are losing. You are making the same offfensive assumptions. It's equally nasty.

Apart from that we all know he's a self important, manipulative, pain in the fucking arse.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 30, 2016)

Losing? Bit too self-important that, I just want to slag the cunt off after I get in from work.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 30, 2016)

treelover said:


> Know the feeling, too many bullies on here, see the boards as their own domain.


Sometimes, I think there are too many victims on here, too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2016)

Anju said:


> I'm not sure what I could have done. The only march I have been on was the Iraq war.
> 
> Problem is that the media do have a huge part to play in deciding what people aware of.  There is virtually no coverage of Yemen, Syria, Iraq unless something that makes the government look like it is having an impact happens, like taking territory from ISIS.  This power was laid out in writing yesterday in the email from Mrs Vine.
> 
> ...



To be frank, I don't think that getting the idle scum to do what every working person has to - clocking, time sheets,expenses forms that are actually filled out and require receipts - is at all "extreme", except in their perception, obviously!


----------



## Anju (Jun 30, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> You really are a horrific piece of shit aren't you.
> You call calling someone "chinky" "a triviality" you get called out. You try and call me racist as I suggest you go explain yourself in your local Chinese restaurant (where you may note you might find a concentration of British Chinese/HK folk who would be very interested in your views). Of course that is _terribly_ racist, rah rah what, rather than using the word "chinky" of course.
> You then whine when you get abuse, and report my posts - hahahahah - you internet weirdo.
> Then you chip in to some guy who, for some reason known only to him, is posting about topping himself and call him "mentally unstable," after saying "I won't respond to you."
> ...



I noticed that in one of his replies he added "or laundry" himself.  Not sure if it was to try and make you look bad or some weird connection in his brain.


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 30, 2016)

Anju said:


> I noticed that in one of his replies he added "or laundry" himself.  Not sure if it was to try and make you look bad or some weird connection in his brain.


The first.


----------



## xenon (Jun 30, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Losing? Bit too self-important that, I just want to slag the cunt off after I get in from work.



You're shitting all over your shoes with the sex tourist stuff. The implications about Dwires host female populas. 

Take a step back, see how it reads.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Losing? Bit too self-important that, I just want to slag the cunt off after I get in from work.


go on then, I've never seen someone banned for laying into dwyer before.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 30, 2016)

Police probe Coventry race abuse of BBC's Trish Adudu - BBC News



> Trish told listeners the attack happened as she was getting into her car at around 09:30 BST on Wednesday.
> 
> She said: "He cycled over to what looked like an Asian student and was basically saying 'Get out of here. Go back home. Haven't you heard the vote?'
> 
> ...


----------



## Anju (Jun 30, 2016)

This is sad but inspiring. 

So, I was called a nigger today. I was on the phone, going through the turnstiles at Elephant. It was busy and someone asked the woman behind me if we'd all fit in the lift. She replied, "If this fucking nigger gets off her fucking phone, we might." Wait, what? For me - and I acknowledge I have been blessed never in my life to have experienced this directly before - these were first time feels. My body instantly wanted to be as far away as possible. My eyes wanted to stare her down. My heart wanted to both break and thunderously roar with rage. My lips couldn't speak but my tongue wanted to say, nah luv, there is no space big enough for both of us to fit, there's no world big enough for me and you and all your pettiness and all your hate. I looked at her. She was pregnant, quite heavily, with empty, unimaginative Daily Mail eyes and a grim, hollow, unreachable stare, and she sat on the tube with her squinty, brittle, pockmarked husband and they downed a magnum of Smirnoff Ice and cussed and grumbled all the way to Bank. And I realised that she was too pathetic and lost to deserve my pain. 
We live in a divided world. Whether you are just suddenly reeling at the acknowledgement of this or whether you have always known it, felt it, experienced it, suffered from it, we must not park our collective reactionary response at anger, anguish, resentment, cynicism, or entrench ourselves deeper within our categorised comfort zones. We must all play our part in disembowelling this monstrous invention of whiteness. Racists and bigots, they're the metastases. We have to get to the cancer. We must dismantle the dominant narratives that fuel white supremacy and confront directly the systems of power that insist and thrive on keeping it alive. We must confront ourselves. We must all acknowledge what it has offered to us and what it has kept from us by virtue of the colour of our skin, the colour of our passport, where we exist in the world and on the neoliberal economic ladder. We must empathise, listen to each other's stories, believe them. We must allow each other time to catch up, without malice or scorn. But seriously, do dig deep and catch up. If you don't know, go know. We owe it to ourselves, to each other, to our futures to do this. Let's take this collectively shitty feeling and do the work. We live in this world together. We must fight for it together. As Baldwin said: 'People who shut their eyes to reality simply invite their own destruction, and anyone who insists on remaining in a state of innocence long after that innocence is dead turns himself into a monster." This could be the threshold for something new, more alert, less inert. We're all here. Don't be a bystander.


----------



## CRI (Jun 30, 2016)

For those who can't be arsed to look it up, here's the source of the 57% figure.

_There has been an of 57%  increase in reporting to True Vision since Friday compared to this time last month (85 reports between Thursday 23 –Sunday 26 June compared with 54 reports the corresponding 4 days four weeks ago.)  These figures only take into account reports through one mechanism, reports are also made directly to forces and other community groups like Tell Mama and Community Security so this is not an overall national figure.   This should not be read as a national increase in hate crime of 57% but an increase in reporting through one mechanism._


----------



## existentialist (Jun 30, 2016)

I know it's a tiny thing, but I've now had several people recognise the safety pin I put in my lapel. I don't intend this to be a gesture: if I encounter anyone giving it the racist shit, I will be in there - non-violently. I don't think this is just about the referendum, but I do think that the almost-overtly racist campaigning prior to it and the result have unlocked a level of latent racism and discrimination that, if I'm honest, I always knew was there (bedroom tax, ATOS, PIP, etc., it's all part of the same discriminatory bollocks), but am still appalled to see being shown quite so openly.

This stuff can always sound like pious posturing from the pulpit, but I truly do believe that we are at a turning point: if the majority of us do not stand up NOW and say "enough", not just to the racism, but to all the fingerpointing, the blame-finding, the manufactured hate, and the "othering" of particular groups of people, then we are on the brink of becoming something very, very nasty indeed. I don't want to live in a world - or even a country - where that is even remotely acceptable, and I'm prepared to have my lights punched out - if that's what has to happen - in order to do my tiny bit to stop that occurring. I hope there are others, many others, who feel the same way.


----------



## coley (Jun 30, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> is the new right wing Tory goverment going to change any of this aside from getting us out of Europe..


Hopefully any new Tory party will crash and burn, esp after the Ides of late June


----------



## coley (Jun 30, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Two points, the Tory government is already right wing, worst case scenario and Boris wins the leadership, something thats looking increasingly unlikely then we have as Prime Minister a socially liberal toff who lives in Islington, is ruthlessly pro-free market but other than that swings with the political wind in whatever direction likely to give him the most power.  Same as the last cunt then.
> 
> Second point is that Cameron was going to resign anyway before the next election, probably sooner rather than later, he hasn't looked like he wanted the job for a while now.  So this leadership contest would have happened anyway, and a Remain vote would have hardly pushed the Tory membership to the left.  Not suggesting you think this, but the idea that Leave will cause the most right wing government ever in history is nonsense.
> 
> And perhaps a third point, the Tories lurching to the right, with an unelected Prime Minister getting bounced all over by Brussels in the negotiations and UKIP probably not going anywhere for the forseeable, probably gives the best possible chance of a Labour victory in 2020.



Or more likely, a progressive coalition, if the Scots and Irish stick around


----------



## Anju (Jun 30, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I know it's a tiny thing, but I've now had several people recognise the safety pin I put in my lapel. I don't intend this to be a gesture: if I encounter anyone giving it the racist shit, I will be in there - non-violently. I don't think this is just about the referendum, but I do think that the almost-overtly racist campaigning prior to it and the result have unlocked a level of latent racism and discrimination that, if I'm honest, I always knew was there (bedroom tax, ATOS, PIP, etc., it's all part of the same discriminatory bollocks), but am still appalled to see being shown quite so openly.
> 
> This stuff can always sound like pious posturing from the pulpit, but I truly do believe that we are at a turning point: if the majority of us do not stand up NOW and say "enough", not just to the racism, but to all the fingerpointing, the blame-finding, the manufactured hate, and the "othering" of particular groups of people, then we are on the brink of becoming something very, very nasty indeed. I don't want to live in a world - or even a country - where that is even remotely acceptable, and I'm prepared to have my lights punched out - if that's what has to happen - in order to do my tiny bit to stop that occurring. I hope there are others, many others, who feel the same way.



I think there are a lot of people who feel the same.  I am also more than prepared for non-violent intervention. I know a few people who are so wound go much further. I only have 103 Facebook friends of whom about 40 are non English. 3 of them have now been verbally abused. Not standing face to face confrontations. Two of them were passing in the street and one as people got off a train.  None of them have reported the incidents, even though others have urged them to.

I really hope you do not have to defend anyone but if you do, good luck.


----------



## coley (Jun 30, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> What *could* you have done to stop it, realistically?
> 
> Marches are very fulfilling for the marchers, but seldom achieve anything beyond a warm glow of satisfaction.
> 
> ...


A lot of labour politicians would find recall notices dropping through their letterboxes if such a system existed


----------



## coley (Jun 30, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> You really are a horrific piece of shit aren't you.
> You call calling someone "chinky" "a triviality" you get called out. You try and call me racist as I suggest you go explain yourself in your local Chinese restaurant (where you may note you might find a concentration of British Chinese/HK folk who would be very interested in your views). Of course that is _terribly_ racist, rah rah what, rather than using the word "chinky" of course.
> You then whine when you get abuse, and report my posts - hahahahah - you internet weirdo.
> Then you chip in to some guy who, for some reason known only to him, is posting about topping himself and call him "mentally unstable," after saying "I won't respond to you."
> ...



Your another bugger that could do with an 'enforced holiday' 
I wanted to go on a diving course in Thailand but the thought of the sniggers from the tiny mind brigade, as someone my age buggered off there unaccompanied!?
'diving holiday' aye yeah......


----------



## existentialist (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> I think there are a lot of people who feel the same.  I am also more than prepared for non-violent intervention. I know a few people who are so wound go much further. I only have 103 Facebook friends of whom about 40 are non English. 3 of them have now been verbally abused. Not standing face to face confrontations. Two of them were passing in the street and one as people got off a train.  None of them have reported the incidents, even though others have urged them to.
> 
> I really hope you do not have to defend anyone but if you do, good luck.


Luck does come into it, because any confrontation depends on luck to stop it turning nasty, or becoming dangerous if it does. But mostly, it's about conviction: I firmly believe that most of these racist idiots rely on the fact that nobody wants to face them down, because of the (small) risk they present. I've worked with people far more threatening than those eejits on the tram in Manchester, and I know that 99% of them couldn't ever back their rhetoric up with anything.

As for the 1% who can...well, they're taking a chance too.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> I think there are a lot of people who feel the same.  I am also more than prepared for non-violent intervention. I know a few people who are so wound go much further. I only have 103 Facebook friends of whom about 40 are non English. 3 of them have now been verbally abused. Not standing face to face confrontations. Two of them were passing in the street and one as people got off a train.  None of them have reported the incidents, even though others have urged them to.
> 
> I really hope you do not have to defend anyone but if you do, good luck.



This is the thing. Most people don't report 'small' things. To do so is just to extend the hurt of it in many ways. I don't blame people for not reporting. 

I've only just heard of this safety pin thing. I'm going to do it tomorrow. If it's just a fleeting, ineffectual fad, so be it. Better than not doing it, surely. And crucially, it is not a statement saying 'fuck you, brexit voters'. It is a thing saying 'fuck you, racists'.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is the thing. Most people don't report 'small' things. To do so is just to extend the hurt of it in many ways. I don't blame people for not reporting.
> 
> I've only just heard of this safety pin thing. I'm going to do it tomorrow. If it's just a fleeting, ineffectual fad, so be it. Better than not doing it, surely. And crucially, it is not a statement saying 'fuck you, brexit voters'. It is a thing saying 'fuck you, racists'.


Thassit. The bigger picture.


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> This is sad but inspiring.
> 
> So, I was called a nigger today. I was on the phone, going through the turnstiles at Elephant. It was busy and someone asked the woman behind me if we'd all fit in the lift. She replied, "If this fucking nigger gets off her fucking phone, we might." Wait, what? For me - and I acknowledge I have been blessed never in my life to have experienced this directly before - these were first time feels. My body instantly wanted to be as far away as possible. My eyes wanted to stare her down. My heart wanted to both break and thunderously roar with rage. My lips couldn't speak but my tongue wanted to say, nah luv, there is no space big enough for both of us to fit, there's no world big enough for me and you and all your pettiness and all your hate. I looked at her. She was pregnant, quite heavily, with empty, unimaginative Daily Mail eyes and a grim, hollow, unreachable stare, and she sat on the tube with her squinty, brittle, pockmarked husband and they downed a magnum of Smirnoff Ice and cussed and grumbled all the way to Bank. And I realised that she was too pathetic and lost to deserve my pain.
> We live in a divided world. Whether you are just suddenly reeling at the acknowledgement of this or whether you have always known it, felt it, experienced it, suffered from it, we must not park our collective reactionary response at anger, anguish, resentment, cynicism, or entrench ourselves deeper within our categorised comfort zones. We must all play our part in disembowelling this monstrous invention of whiteness. Racists and bigots, they're the metastases. We have to get to the cancer. We must dismantle the dominant narratives that fuel white supremacy and confront directly the systems of power that insist and thrive on keeping it alive. We must confront ourselves. We must all acknowledge what it has offered to us and what it has kept from us by virtue of the colour of our skin, the colour of our passport, where we exist in the world and on the neoliberal economic ladder. We must empathise, listen to each other's stories, believe them. We must allow each other time to catch up, without malice or scorn. But seriously, do dig deep and catch up. If you don't know, go know. We owe it to ourselves, to each other, to our futures to do this. Let's take this collectively shitty feeling and do the work. We live in this world together. We must fight for it together. As Baldwin said: 'People who shut their eyes to reality simply invite their own destruction, and anyone who insists on remaining in a state of innocence long after that innocence is dead turns himself into a monster." This could be the threshold for something new, more alert, less inert. We're all here. Don't be a bystander.



There are trolls, and there are trolls who consider themselves clever.

"I looked at her. She was pregnant, quite heavily, with empty, unimaginative Daily Mail eyes and a grim, hollow, unreachable stare, and she sat on the tube with her squinty, brittle, pockmarked husband and they downed a magnum of Smirnoff Ice and cussed and grumbled all the way to Bank. And I realised that she was too pathetic and lost to deserve my pain"

The only thing missing was ' in their thick northern accents'
Do me a favour 'hinny' 
And haddawayishyte.
I actually wonder if this kind of Shyte is a 'double bluff' trying to intensify the hostility of us 'uneducated working class, racist bigots' against the metropolitan elite?


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Thassit. The bigger picture.



It's 63 years since a safety pin was an essential item of clothing for me but if you can convince me it's an anti racism demo,rather than fuck you brexiters, I'll wear one without difficulty, as would most of my brexiter brethren.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> You try and call me racist



I didn't try, I succeeded.  

In fact, I think I'll do it again.



Coolfonz said:


> How is your single-middle-aged-white-guy-in-Asia holiday going? Tiring I bet.



You Sir, are a downright, hardcore, stone-cold--if quite possibly unconscious--racist.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is the thing. Most people don't report 'small' things. To do so is just to extend the hurt of it in many ways. I don't blame people for not reporting.
> 
> I've only just heard of this safety pin thing. I'm going to do it tomorrow. If it's just a fleeting, ineffectual fad, so be it. Better than not doing it, surely. And crucially, it is not a statement saying 'fuck you, brexit voters'. It is a thing saying 'fuck you, racists'.


What safety pin thing is this?
reminds me of this The Paperclip Was Used As a Symbol of Resistance During World War II


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> So, I was called a nigger today. I was on the phone, going through the turnstiles at Elephant. It was busy and someone asked the woman behind me if we'd all fit in the lift. She replied, "If this fucking nigger gets off her fucking phone, we might."



I thought you were a man?


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> I thought you were a man?



That was not my writing. I just wrote the this is sad but inspiring.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> That was not my writing. I just wrote the this is sad but inspiring.



You're supposed to put quotations in quotation marks.

Can you at least give the source for your moving story?  It doesn't show up on Yahoo search.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 1, 2016)

coley said:


> It's 63 years since a safety pin was an essential item of clothing for me but if you can convince me it's an anti racism demo,rather than fuck you brexiters, I'll wear one without difficulty, as would most of my brexiter brethren.


I wouldn't want to waste my breath on saying "fuck you" to brexiters.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I wouldn't want to waste my breath on saying "fuck you" to brexiters.



Why?  Do you think we're racists?


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is the thing. Most people don't report 'small' things. To do so is just to extend the hurt of it in many ways. I don't blame people for not reporting.
> 
> I've only just heard of this safety pin thing. I'm going to do it tomorrow. If it's just a fleeting, ineffectual fad, so be it. Better than not doing it, surely. And crucially, it is not a statement saying 'fuck you, brexit voters'. It is a thing saying 'fuck you, racists'.



I think people also don't report things because they feel they will not be believed.  Some of the posts below are an example of why they might think this and the woman in the video I posted above stated that this happens. People even trying the this is a conspiracy against the poor white people, of who I am one.


----------



## Humberto (Jul 1, 2016)

Better off scaling down the authority which presides over us.


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

coley said:


> There are trolls, and there are trolls who consider themselves clever.
> 
> "I looked at her. She was pregnant, quite heavily, with empty, unimaginative Daily Mail eyes and a grim, hollow, unreachable stare, and she sat on the tube with her squinty, brittle, pockmarked husband and they downed a magnum of Smirnoff Ice and cussed and grumbled all the way to Bank. And I realised that she was too pathetic and lost to deserve my pain"
> 
> ...



After all the grief I got yesterday from people here it is again. Deny the racism and even do the white victim thing. Fucking shameful disgusting behaviour. How else are people supposed to deal with it if they don't rise above it. A punch in the face?

 I am white but here are some of the racist incidents that have been part of my life. 

Sitting in a car with my wife driving, another car coming the opposite way no room for 2 cars, a short stand off and as the other car drives past the driver shouts, stupid black bitch.

Me driving a van with a young work colleague in the passenger seat. A black traffic warden crosses the road. My colleague says run the nigger over. I stop in the middle of the road grab him but stop there and tell him to get out.

A Muslim friend was in a bar in the West end and an Australian man said, give me your chair boy. 

My brother in law was stopped by police in Peckham and ended up being pulled from his car, too nice for a black man to be driving, beaten then arrested and charged with assaulting a police officer. He had a good lawyer and from the notes submitted by the police and their statements he proved that he police were claiming he was acting in a threatening manner when he was still sat in the car. Proved innocent and advised to prosecute but he knew what the consequences would be and did not. When he got his car back there was what must have been spit on the front seats, dashboard and steering wheel.

These are just some of the things I have seen or know of. All part of a conspiracy against white people? 

FFS.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> She was pregnant, quite heavily, with empty, unimaginative Daily Mail eyes and a grim, hollow, unreachable stare, and she sat on the tube with her squinty, brittle, pockmarked husband and they downed a magnum of Smirnoff Ice and cussed and grumbled all the way to Bank.



A heavily pregnant woman downed a magnum of Smirnoff Ice on the tube?

Sorry Anju, maybe I'm too skeptical.  But do you have a source for this story?


----------



## keybored (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> A heavily pregnant woman downed a magnum of Smirnoff Ice on the tube?
> 
> Sorry Anju, maybe I'm too skeptical.  But do you have a source for this story?


Google "magnum of smirnoff ice" and you'll find an anecdote on Facebook.


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> After all the grief I got yesterday from people here it is again. Deny the racism and even do the white victim thing. Fucking shameful disgusting behaviour. How else are people supposed to deal with it if they don't rise above it. A punch in the face?
> 
> I am white but here are some of the racist incidents that have been part of my life.
> 
> ...



Sorry, gave you the benefit, but you can bugger off now.


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

Meant to be to phildwyer

It is not a story. It is a friend of one of my Facebook friends or friend of a friends friend. I guess she is just proud of her prose. Go and hang around outside mayday hospital maternity ward in  Croydon for a while and you will see heavily pregnant women pop out for a fag.  I imagine they would happily drink a bottle of Smirnoff Ice.


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> A heavily pregnant woman downed a magnum of Smirnoff Ice on the tube?
> 
> Sorry Anju, maybe I'm too skeptical.  But do you have a source for this story?


Us working class racists have occasionally been known to knock off a quarter bottle, but a magnum? Must be the more posho racists


----------



## keybored (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> Sitting in a car with my wife driving, another car coming the opposite way no room for 2 cars, a short stand off and as the other car drives past the driver shouts, stupid black bitch.
> 
> Me driving a van with a young work colleague in the passenger seat. A black traffic warden crosses the road. My colleague says run the nigger over. I stop in the middle of the road grab him but stop there and tell him to get out.
> 
> ...



All of those sound credible. The piece Coley quoted doesn't.


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> It is not a story. It is a friend of one of my Facebook friends. I guess she is just proud of her prose. Go and hang around outside mayday hospital maternity ward in  Croydon for a while and you will see heavily pregnant women pop out for a fag.  I imagine they would happily drink a bottle of Smirnoff Ice.


Aye, I dread to think what you could imagine, but some on here ( rotten sods that they are) ask for links and God( enter recognisable deity here) forbid, proof of your somewhat anecdotal statements.
A"friend of one of my Facebook friends"


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye, I dread to think what you could imagine, but some on here ( rotten sods that they are) ask for links and God( enter recognisable deity here) forbid, proof of your somewhat anecdotal statements.
> A"friend of one of my Facebook friends"


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> Meant to be to phildwyer
> 
> It is not a story. It is a friend of one of my Facebook friends or friend of a friends friend. I guess she is just proud of her prose. Go and hang around outside mayday hospital maternity ward in  Croydon for a while and you will see heavily pregnant women pop out for a fag.  I imagine they would happily drink a bottle of Smirnoff Ice.



Fair enough.  Though I won't be completely convinced until I see a more authoritative source than Facebook.

It's no reflection on you, it's just that the story fits the Remainers' stereotypes a bit too neatly.  But I'm probably just being a silly old cynic.


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye, I dread to think what you could imagine, but some on here ( rotten sods that they are) ask for links and God( enter recognisable deity here) forbid, proof of your somewhat anecdotal statements.
> A"friend of one of my Facebook friends"



Of course, racism only exists if there is a link to it. I had forgotten that. Why don't you head back to the imaginary victory thread where a few deluded idiots are plotting to overthrow the monarchy and then the entire capitalist system, all from the comfort of their keyboards. 

A poor working class boy like you imagine only being able to go to Thailand for a diving course. It's just not fair is it.  Are you taking the niece you made redundant. Hypocritical? Liar?


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

keybored said:


> All of those sound credible. The piece Coley quoted doesn't.



Why can black people not attempt to write something with a bit of style.

Credible racism. Lovely.


----------



## fishfinger (Jul 1, 2016)

It was written by Phoebe Boswell


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

keybored said:


> All of those sound credible. The piece Coley quoted doesn't.



Sorry Anju, but he's right.  Think about it: it's *impossible *for anyone to "down" a magnum of Smirnoff Ice on the tube between Elephant and Bank.  It* cannot be done.
*
The fact that the story claims it was done  by a heavily-pregnant white lumpenprole with "Daily Mail eyes" tells us all we need to know about the agenda here.  You have been duped.


----------



## ginger_syn (Jul 1, 2016)

Well this thread has turned into horror story that feels wrong to continue reading.


----------



## xenon (Jul 1, 2016)

Oh come on, don't be a nob.  The Facebook thing is daft and ridiculous to copy and paste unattributed stuff . Sure.  But using that to dismiss everything else  and as good as call Anju a liar.  Out of order. 

  Argue, yeah.  But not this weird paranoid shit.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

fishfinger said:


> It was written by Phoebe Boswell



Then Phoebe Boswell is a liar.


----------



## xenon (Jul 1, 2016)

Was in response to this.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

xenon said:


> Oh come on, don't be a nob.  The Facebook thing is daft and ridiculous to copy and paste unattributed stuff . Sure.  But using that to dismiss everything else  and as good as call Anju a liar.  Out of order.
> 
> Argue, yeah.  But not this weird paranoid shit.



"Paranoid" be buggered.  If you don't think the Brexit vote is being used to demonize the white proletariat, you're blind *and* deaf.

No-one is calling Anju a liar, I'm sure he read and re-posted in good faith.  But the story is bullshit, and it's not the only bullshit story of that nature  doing the rounds.  Scratch a bourgeois Brit, or give him/her the slightest excuse, and a ton of revealing class prejudice often spills out.


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> Of course, racism only exists if there is a link to it. I had forgotten that. Why don't you head back to the imaginary victory thread where a few deluded idiots are plotting to overthrow the monarchy and then the entire capitalist system, all from the comfort of their keyboards.
> 
> A poor working class boy like you imagine only being able to go to Thailand for a diving course. It's just not fair is it.  Are you taking the niece you made redundant. Hypocritical? Liar?


M
Actually, fairly comfortable working class, did an introductory diving class in NZ a couple of years ago.
Taking the niece? More of the Shyte that has surfaced since the Dwyer "infected remark"
Consider yourself reported


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

keybored said:


> All of those sound credible. The piece Coley quoted doesn't.


Aye, what piece was that?


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

Was meant to be to xenon. Stupid WiFi keeps cutting out

Thanks. I know I pissed you off yesterday so I appreciate your comment. I did make an apology on that thread to everyone and clearly it was warranted for the majority of cases, but sadly not all.


----------



## xenon (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> "Paranoid" be buggered.  If you don't think the Brexit vote is being used to demonize the white proletariat, you're blind *and* deaf.
> 
> No-one is calling Anju a liar, I'm sure he read and re-posted in good faith.  But the story is bullshit, and it's not the only bullshit story of that nature  doing the rounds.  Scratch a bourgeois Brit, or give him/her the slightest excuse, and a ton of revealing class prejudice often spills out.



 I'm calling Coley a nob  for jumping on that FB daftness  as a point to dismiss everything else they have said.  As for the rest, I have commented already about thats on the other threads.


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Sorry Anju, but he's right.  Think about it: it's *impossible *for anyone to "down" a magnum of Smirnoff Ice on the tube between Elephant and Bank.  It* cannot be done.
> *
> The fact that the story claims it was done  by a heavily-pregnant white lumpenprole with "Daily Mail eyes" tells us all we need to know about the agenda here.  You have been duped.


Anju hasn't, but is attempting to, laughingly and very clumsily, dupe us, it's a troll,


----------



## xenon (Jul 1, 2016)

coley said:


> Anju hasn't, but is attempting to, laughingly and very clumsily, dupe us, it's a troll,



 They're not a troll FFS!  

 Might be wrong headed, said some daft things,  tarnished some good posters there by.  But I don't believe they are making things up for lols  or what ever. Please get some fucking perspective.


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

coley said:


> M
> Actually, fairly comfortable working class, did an introductory diving class in NZ a couple of years ago.
> Taking the niece? More of the Shyte that has surfaced since the Dwyer "infected remark"
> Consider yourself reported



I was referring to the niece you made redundant. Guess that was the only way to afford the course. Solidarity, you can't even manage it with your family.  Selfishdarity is what you seem to be into.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

coley said:


> Anju hasn't, but is attempting to, laughingly and very clumsily, dupe us, it's a troll,



I really don't know about that.  The other anecdotes he posted did sound plausible.

But that Phoebe Boswell seems like a nasty piece of work.  Inventing racial incidents to make herself look and feel cool.  It's an insult to anyone who's really been a victim.  And it's an insult to *her *intended victims, the caricaturable, stereotypable British proles, who have just memorably asserted themselves on one of the very rare occasions they have been allowed to do so, and who are now suffering the backlash of the aggrieved liberal bourgeoisie.


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

coley said:


> Anju hasn't, but is attempting to, laughingly and very clumsily, dupe us, it's a troll,



Yes I have waited patiently for over 10 years to get you. FFS.


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

xenon said:


> I'm calling Coley a nob  for jumping on that FB daftness  as a point to dismiss everything else they have said.  As for the rest, I have commented already about thats on the other threads.


I read it in the " whole" the fluff around the section I quoted was just that, fluff, the bit I quoted was the ''meat' of the article.
This 'Anju'. Sounds very similar to another simplistic 'new poster" who arrived a few months ago, with a similar, " sorry if I'm a getting things wrong, I'm new on here"


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> I really don't know about that.  The other anecdotes he posted did sound plausible.
> 
> But that Phoebe Boswell seems like a nasty piece of work.  Inventing racial incidents to make herself look and feel cool.  It's an insult to anyone who's really been a victim.  And it's an insult to *her *intended victims, the caricaturable, stereotypable British proles, who have just memorably asserted themselves on one of the very rare occasions they have been allowed to do so, and who are now suffering the backlash of the aggrieved liberal bourgeoisie.



This is what I was talking about yesterday. It is not a plot.  She has no victims. The only people she would be harming by lying are other black people.


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes I have waited patiently for over 10 years to get you. FFS.



Aye whey you sad sod, hope it was worth it, whatever "getting me" means,  you sound like a bad line from a thrupenny book.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> This is what I was talking about yesterday. It is not a plot.  She has no victims. The only people she would be harming by lying are other black people.



Bollocks.

She's harming--I'd say *deliberately *harming--the 52% of British people who voted Leave.  She's suggesting that we are responsible for the entirely fabricated and fictitious racial incident she has invented.  She's caricaturing us as Daily Mail-eyed, foetus-abusing, vodka-guzzling, Elephant-and-Castle dwelling, pissed-while-pregnant, rude-on-the-tube, racist bigots.  She's basically taken every cheap, nasty stereotype she can think of and made a composite character out of them, to feature in a fantasy of which she is both victim and heroine, giving her a fine opportunity for cringeworthy, moralistic, self-righteous, holier-than-thou exhortations to... to do what exactly?  Love and admire her mainly, afaics.

Absolutely disgraceful.  I've half a mind to write to the _Mail _about it.


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

coley said:


> I read it in the " whole" the fluff around the section I quoted was just that, fluff, the bit I quoted was the ''meat' of the article.
> This 'Anju'. Sounds very similar to another simplistic 'new poster" who arrived a few months ago, with a similar, " sorry if I'm a getting things wrong, I'm new on here"



Me 2002 member. Just relating my experiences. Sometimes getting help. Shocked at the attitude of some people here.

You 2009 member. Said in another post that you had made 4 people redundant, how tough it was to make your niece redundant. Said here that you were going to Thailand on a diving course. Seems a little hypocritical. Believe that the racist attacks being carried out now are to make white working class people look bad.


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> Me 2002 member. Just relating my experiences. Sometimes getting help. Shocked at the attitude of some people here.
> 
> You 2009 member. Said in another post that you had made 4 people redundant, how tough it was to make your niece redundant. Said here that you were going to Thailand on a diving course. Seems a little hypocritical. Believe that the racist attacks being carried out now are to make white working class people look bad.



You have lost the plot, if you ever had one in the first place, and just ease off on the threats, I have only reported one person on here but you are getting close to being the second.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, some of us on here at this time of night have had a drink or two, mebbes you have gone beyond two?
Cool down or fuck off.


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye whey you sad sod, hope it was worth it, whatever "getting me" means,  you sound like a bad line from a thrupenny book.



I was simply mocking your belief that I am a troll.


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> I was simply mocking your belief that I am a troll.



Aye, fair comment, most trolls are amusing, at first.


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

coley said:


> You have lost the plot, if you ever had one in the first place, and just ease off on the threats, I have only reported one person on here but you are getting close to being the second.
> I will give you the benefit of the doubt, some of us on here at this time of night have had a drink or two, mebbes you have gone beyond two?
> Cool down or fuck off.



I'm going to fuck off. I have not threatened you in any way. I love the way you accuse me of threatening you in such an aggressive way, making ridiculous demands. The only thing I have threatened is your self imagine.


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I wouldn't want to waste my breath on saying "fuck you" to brexiters.


Just the kind of attitude needed to mend fences and move forward, ain't it.


----------



## ginger_syn (Jul 1, 2016)

You've all lost the plot.


----------



## coley (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> I'm going to fuck off. I have not threatened you in any way. I love the way you accuse me of threatening you in such an aggressive way, making ridiculous demands. The only thing I have threatened is your self imagine.



"Yes I have waited patiently for over 10 years to get you. FFS."

I imagine some on here would feel very threatened by a post of this nature, luckily, I just think your some kind of misguided troll, others disagree, that's the beauty of this forum.
On balance, I didn't report you, you aren't worth the bother.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

existentialist said:


> if the majority of us do not stand up NOW and say "enough", not just to the racism, but to all the fingerpointing, the blame-finding, the manufactured hate, and the "othering" of particular groups of people, then we are on the brink of becoming something very, very nasty indeed.





existentialist said:


> I wouldn't want to waste my breath on saying "fuck you" to brexiters.



This isn't aimed at Existentialist in particular.  But the logical incompatibility of these two quotes captures a widespread paradox in the thinking of Remain voters that seems worth highlighting.

I've lost count of the number of people I've heard or read saying similar stuff.  "The only thing I hate worse than bigotry is the nasty, smelly, ugly, stupid bigots--they're horrible they are, don't talk to them, they're stinky."  It's the purest form of performative contradiction.  Why can't Remain voters accept that many Leave voters are radicals and progressives?


----------



## existentialist (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Why?  Do you think we're racists?


Not getting dragged into that one, Phil...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> *Then Phoebe Boswell is a liar.*





phildwyer said:


> I really don't know about that.  The other anecdotes he posted did sound plausible.
> 
> *But that Phoebe Boswell seems like a nasty piece of work.  Inventing racial incidents to make herself look and feel cool.*  It's an insult to anyone who's really been a victim.  And it's an insult to *her *intended victims, the caricaturable, stereotypable British proles, who have just memorably asserted themselves on one of the very rare occasions they have been allowed to do so, and who are now suffering the backlash of the aggrieved liberal bourgeoisie.



Where is your evidence of this?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Bollocks.
> 
> *She's harming--I'd say deliberately harming--the 52% of British people who voted Leave.  She's suggesting that we are responsible for the entirely fabricated and fictitious racial incident she has invented.*  She's caricaturing us as Daily Mail-eyed, foetus-abusing, vodka-guzzling, Elephant-and-Castle dwelling, pissed-while-pregnant, rude-on-the-tube, racist bigots.  She's basically taken every cheap, nasty stereotype she can think of and made a composite character out of them, to feature in a fantasy of which she is both victim and heroine, giving her a fine opportunity for cringeworthy, moralistic, self-righteous, holier-than-thou exhortations to... to do what exactly?  Love and admire her mainly, afaics.
> 
> Absolutely disgraceful.  I've half a mind to write to the _Mail _about it.



Where is your evidence of this?


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Where is your evidence of this?



Post 646.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> I'm going to fuck off.



Probably for the best.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Post 646.



What this? They is no evidence here.



phildwyer said:


> Sorry Anju, but he's right.  Think about it: it's *impossible *for anyone to "down" a magnum of Smirnoff Ice on the tube between Elephant and Bank.  It* cannot be done.
> *
> The fact that the story claims it was done  by a heavily-pregnant white lumpenprole with "Daily Mail eyes" tells us all we need to know about the agenda here.  You have been duped.





> they downed a magnum of Smirnoff Ice and cussed and grumbled all the way to Bank.



1. *They*...it was not claimed she was travelling/drinking alone.
2. _'they downed a magnum' ...._doesn't even mean they finished it between them in that time. It can simply mean they were drinking it, maybe quickly during that time.


So, no evidence at all just you assuming to know what can and can't be done, as well as overlooking the fact that this woman wasn't alone and 'downing' can mean _drinking quickly_ without actually finishing.


----------



## keybored (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> Why can black people not attempt to write something with a bit of style.
> 
> Credible racism. Lovely.



Scrolling down her wall makes it look like she might have a bit of an agenda.


Nice try though. Why aren't some black people allowed to tell porkies? You racist!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

Interesting that none of the other stories linked to in the last few ages have been given this level of scrutiny. Have they even been discussed? Nope.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

keybored said:


> Scrolling down her wall makes it look like she might have a bit of an agenda.
> 
> 
> Nice try though. Why aren't some black people allowed to tell porkies? You racist!



What agenda is that then?


----------



## J Ed (Jul 1, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Interesting that none of the other stories linked to in the last few ages have been given this level of scrutiny. Have they even been discussed? Nope.



tbf none of them have come with the prose filled with classism that this one did. Not saying that I don't believe this one, judging by events over the past seven days it's very believable regardless of context and even if it isn't true I am sure that hundreds of similar incidents we don't know about have happened.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> What this? They is no evidence here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1.  Yes, she supposedly had her husband with her.  That makes the story less plausible, not more.  How many fathers-to-be would join their heavily-pregnant wife in swigging vodka from the bottle on the tube?  And how did Boswell know it was her husband anyway?

2.  "Downing" means finishing.  There is no way that two people, no matter how alcoholic, could down a magnum of Smirnoff Ice between Elephant and Bank, a journey of under ten minutes.  That is impossible.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Interesting that none of the other stories linked to in the last few ages have been given this level of scrutiny. Have they even been discussed? Nope.



Because there was no reason to doubt them.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> 2.  "Downing" means finishing.  There is no way that two people, no matter how alcoholic, could down a magnum of Smirnoff Ice between Elephant and Bank, a journey of under ten minutes.  That is impossible.



You realise that it's _Smirnoff Ice_, the alcopop, rather than neat vodka don't you? I *could* drink all of that personally in five minutes if I wanted. I wouldn't want to but it's absolutely possible.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

J Ed said:


> You realise that it's _Smirnoff Ice_, the alcopop, rather than neat vodka don't you? I *could* drink all of that personally in five minutes if I wanted. I wouldn't want to but it's absolutely possible.



Yes, I know what Smirnoff Ice is.  Do you know what a magnum is?  It's about four pints.  The journey between Elephant and Bank takes five minutes.  So you'd have to drink almost a pint a minute, of one of the most disgusting drinks known to humanity, on a crowded tube, while heavily pregnant.

Are you a betting man by any chance?


----------



## CRI (Jul 1, 2016)

J Ed said:


> tbf none of them have come with the prose filled with classism that this one did. Not saying that I don't believe this one, judging by events over the past seven days it's very believable regardless of context and even if it isn't true I am sure that hundreds of similar incidents we don't know about have happened.



Phoebe Boswell is an artist and, funny thing about artistic people, they often write in an "artistic" way. Ah, but no one can down a "magnum of Smirnoff Ice" that fast, so she *must* be lying.  Didn't happen, or blown out of proportion.  Must have some "agenda."   

Stop me if you've heard this one before - Black person, Asian person, Muslim "looking" person gets racist chanting from white guys, maybe shouting in their face, some spitting or throwing stuff at them, hell, even a punch.  People around ignore it - not "British" to get involved, make a fuss.  Person knows if they retaliate, they'll come off worse and doubt anyone will help them.  Report it to the cops, yeah like they'll be believed.  Might even be arrested.  Shitty experience though, so you write about it on social media.  Get flamed, told you're lying, you didn't report it, no proof, no witnesses, there's no evidence, you made it up, chip on your shoulder, you hate white people . . . yadda yadda yadda . . . "  

Now with added, "You're lying to make Brexit voters look bad, we're not racists, we keep telling you we're not racists, we're the real victims in all this, boo hoo.  People are being mean to us on Facebook. Will no one think of the poor lefty white blokes?"

And this thread that was supposed to be about racists incidents following/connected with the referendum result.  It's all cock fights and a lake of white tears.  Pathetic.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, I know what Smirnoff Ice is.  Do you know what a magnum is?  It's about four pints.  The journey between Elephant and Bank takes five minutes.  So you'd have to drink almost a pint a minute, of one of the most disgusting drinks known to humanity, on a crowded tube, while heavily pregnant.
> 
> Are you a betting man by any chance?



Ah ha the plot thickens. Further complicating this, you cannot actually buy a magnum of Smirnoff Ice. The largest amount you can buy is a 70cl bottle and yes (sadly) I could easily drink that in five minutes.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 1, 2016)

CRI said:


> And this thread that was supposed to be about racists incidents following/connected with the referendum result.  It's all cock fights and a lake of white tears.  Pathetic.



Well I don't know about this 'lake of white tears' stuff but the cock fights thing is definitely true, I am going to stop discussing how fast people can drink alcopops or not. One of the things that has shocked me over the past week, almost as much as the increase in racist and xenophobic incidents, is the way in which they have been denied and excused or ignored. One of the three just seems to be the default response for a lot of people.


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Ah ha the plot thickens. Further complicating this, you cannot actually buy a magnum of Smirnoff Ice. The largest amount you can buy is a 70cl bottle and yes (sadly) I could easily drink that in five minutes.



I reckon she was eating a Magnum and drinking (a standard sized bottle of) Smirnoff Ice.

Anyway, this story may well be 100% true, I have no reason to doubt it, but the inclusion of a litany of so many chav cliches suggests to me that it isn't only racists who have a store judgemental stereotypes about other people or groups which they reveal without necessarily intending to...


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Ah ha the plot thickens. Further complicating this, you cannot actually buy a magnum of Smirnoff Ice.



Exactly.  You can however buy a magnum of Smirnoff Red Label, which is probably what Boswell meant.  But only Shane MacGowan or similar could drink one of *them* in five minutes.  And even he couldn't do it while pregnant.   



J Ed said:


> The largest amount you can buy is a 70cl bottle and yes (sadly) I could easily drink that in five minutes.



What's that, about a pint-and-a-half?  I could just about manage that too.  Not on a tube though.  It's illegal for a start.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, I know what Smirnoff Ice is.  Do you know what a magnum is?  It's about four pints.  The journey between Elephant and Bank takes five minutes.  So you'd have to drink almost a pint a minute, of one of the most disgusting drinks known to humanity, on a crowded tube, while heavily pregnant.
> 
> Are you a betting man by any chance?



You don't think it might have been hyperbole rather than outright lying?


----------



## CRI (Jul 1, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Well I don't know about this 'lake of white tears' stuff but the cock fights thing is definitely true, I am going to stop discussing how fast people can drink alcopops or not. One of the things that has shocked me over the past week, almost as much as the increase in racist and xenophobic incidents, is the way in which they have been denied and excused or ignored. One of the three just seems to be the default response for a lot of *white *people.



Fixed that for you, but yeah, both the increase and the minimising, denying and blaming (from white folks across the political spectrum) is fucking shocking, imho.


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2016)

CRI said:


> Fixed that for you, but yeah, both the increase and *the minimising, denying and blaming (from white folks across the political spectrum) is fucking shocking, imho*.



So let's be clear, please tell us who on this thread is

denying that this incident reported by PB happened
minimising its significance or effects

blaming her for it happening
and then explain how you can justify the statement I've highlighted


----------



## CRI (Jul 1, 2016)

two sheds said:


> You don't think it might have been hyperbole rather than outright lying?


She _says _she was a victim of abuse, but if it were true, she should have described the incident accurately, using no words could be viewed as emotional or exaggerated (and heaven forbid if she described any measurements or types of alcohol wrong.)  I mean if her recall of the (distressing) incident isn't perfect, then she's clearly lying. 

Edited to add two words before everyone jumps on my ass.  Outa here now.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> 1.  Yes, she supposedly had her husband with her.  That makes the story less plausible, not more.  How many fathers-to-be would join their heavily-pregnant wife in swigging vodka from the bottle on the tube?  And how did Boswell know it was her husband anyway?
> 
> 2.  "Downing" means finishing.  There is no way that two people, no matter how alcoholic, could down a magnum of Smirnoff Ice between Elephant and Bank, a journey of under ten minutes.  That is impossible.



When she says a "magnum" she means one of those large bottles, which is 700ml. Smirnoff Ice isn't sold in true magnum bottles. So it's slightly less than a wine bottle of an alcopop which is less than 5% abv. That's not particularly implausible.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

CRI said:


> Now with added, "You're lying to make Brexit voters look bad, we're not racists, we keep telling you we're not racists



It's not the personal feelings of the Brexiters that matters.  But it's a deliberate distortion of the issue to suggest that the vote for Brexit was racist.  A distortion that is being pushed by the media, which is outraged at the defiance the people have shown to their rulers' will.  They hope to brand all Brexiters as racist as part of their desperate attempt to overturn the public's verdict.  The truth however is that many radicals and progressives voted Leave, and there are plenty of good radical and progressive reasons for them to have done so.

Not to say that some racists didn't vote Brexit, I'm sure they did, just as I'm sure that some racists voted to Remain.  If however you try to pretend that racism was the main reason for the Brexit victory, then I'm afraid you're insulting and patronizing the British public.


----------



## CRI (Jul 1, 2016)

andysays said:


> So let's be clear, please tell us who on this thread is
> 
> denying that this incident reported by PB happened
> minimising its significance or effects
> ...



Micro scrutiny, yeah, like if I gave up my day wading through the thread to find the stuff you insist I should, it would make any difference.  Blah.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 1, 2016)

I hope this is made up, I pray this is made up.

Fucking hell.


edit: Not as angry now, its an old front page. I'm still willing to endorse shoving this man off a cliff though.


----------



## CRI (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> It's not the personal feelings of the Brexiters that matters.  But it's a deliberate distortion of the issue to suggest that the vote for Brexit was racist.  A distortion that is being pushed by the media, which is outraged at the defiance the people have shown to their rulers' will.  They hope to brand all Brexiters as racist as part of their desperate attempt to overturn the public's verdict.  The truth however is that many radicals and progressives voted Leave, and there are plenty of good radical and progressive reasons for them to have done so.
> 
> Not to say that some racists didn't vote Brexit, I'm sure they did, just as I'm sure that some racists voted to Remain.  If however you try to pretend that racism was the main reason for the Brexit victory, then I'm afraid you're insulting and patronizing the British public.


Sunshine, it's not all about you.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

CRI said:


> Sunshine, it's not all about you.



Which is why I began my post thus:



phildwyer said:


> It's not the personal feelings of the Brexiters that matters.



And then went on to explain that my objection is to the inference that racism was the main motive for the Leave vote.  That inference shows a complete contempt for the British public, as well as a willful refusal to examine the real, perfectly sensible, reasons for the vote.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 1, 2016)

CRI said:


> She _says _she was a victim of abuse, but if it were true, she should have described the incident accurately, using no words could be viewed as emotional or exaggerated (and heaven forbid if she described any measurements or types of alcohol wrong.)  I mean if her recall of the (distressing) incident isn't perfect, then she's clearly lying.
> 
> Edited to add two words before everyone jumps on my ass.  Outa here now.



Errr... I assume that the disputing the size of the bottle thing here is aimed at me which I find a bit confusing since if anything what I was saying added credibility to the original account.


----------



## CRI (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> It's not the personal feelings of the Brexiters that matters.  But it's a deliberate distortion of the issue to suggest that the vote for Brexit was racist.  A distortion that is being pushed by the media, which is outraged at the defiance the people have shown to their rulers' will.  They hope to brand all Brexiters as racist as part of their desperate attempt to overturn the public's verdict.  The truth however is that many radicals and progressives voted Leave, and there are plenty of good radical and progressive reasons for them to have done so.
> 
> Not to say that some racists didn't vote Brexit, I'm sure they did, just as I'm sure that some racists voted to Remain.  If however you try to pretend that racism was the main reason for the Brexit victory, then I'm afraid you're insulting and patronizing the British public.


_
*"it's a deliberate distortion of the issue to suggest that the vote for Brexit was racist"  *
_
Once and for all, saying that a massive part of the Brexit campaign was racist is NOT the same as saying everyone who voted for Brexit was racist.   How folks who voted out who weren't racist squared that with their consciences was up to them.  Why they aren't robustly condemning the racist incidents, and the strong racist elements of the campaign is what I find apalling.

*"not to say that some racists didn't vote Brexit . . ."*

Fuck me, understatement of the year.

I'm off to cuddle some furry animals.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Errr... I assume that the disputing the size of the bottle thing here is aimed at me which I find a bit confusing since if anything what I was saying added credibility to the original account.



No, don't think so. She was quoting me and I was quoting mr dwyer.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> If however you try to pretend that racism was the main reason for the Brexit victory, then I'm afraid you're insulting and patronizing the British public.



Indeed. Similar to trying to pretend that weak minded liberals were the main reason for the Remain vote.  

(not saying you've done this)


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2016)

CRI said:


> Micro scrutiny, yeah, like if I gave up my day wading through the thread to find the stuff you insist I should, it would make any difference.  Blah.



I'm not "insisting" on anything, I'm just inviting to back up your claim, which strikes me as ridiculous. 

That fact that you are unable to mention the name of even one poster who you think has done any of those things suggests to me that you can't back it up


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> 1.  Yes, she supposedly had her husband with her.  That makes the story less plausible, not more.  How many fathers-to-be would join their heavily-pregnant wife in swigging vodka from the bottle on the tube?  And how did Boswell know it was her husband anyway?
> 
> 2.  "Downing" means finishing.  There is no way that two people, no matter how alcoholic, could down a magnum of Smirnoff Ice between Elephant and Bank, a journey of under ten minutes.  That is impossible.


It's not impossible to drink vodka that fast although it is ime very unlikely. If it's an alcopop such speedy drinking would be swiftly followed by vomiting in many cases.


----------



## Whagwan (Jul 1, 2016)

Well, one thing I didn't expect to read this morning was two pages on the mechanics of drinking and available retail volumes of Smirnoff Ice.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2016)

Whagwan said:


> Well, one thing I didn't expect to read this morning was two pages on the mechanics of drinking and available retail volumes of Smirnoff Ice.


Maybe they had a magnum lolly and a bottle of Smirnoff ice


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, I know what Smirnoff Ice is.  Do you know what a magnum is?  It's about four pints.  The journey between Elephant and Bank takes five minutes.  So you'd have to drink almost a pint a minute, of one of the most disgusting drinks known to humanity, on a crowded tube, while heavily pregnant.
> 
> Are you a betting man by any chance?


A magnum traditionally a bottle of champagne of a volume of 1.5 litres, so a tad under 3 pints, a pint being 568 ml


----------



## ska invita (Jul 1, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> edit: Not as angry now, its an old front page. I'm still willing to endorse shoving this man off a cliff though.


That story its barely a year old and its absolutely a part of the xenophobic agenda that was part of their  Leave campaign. Id stay angry 



Anju said:


> Me 2002 member. Just relating my experiences. Sometimes getting help. Shocked at the attitude of some people here.


the way this thread has read to me in the last few days is Anju is upset about a high level of racist attacks post-exit including against a family member - and tried their best to argue their corner and they've been attacked and dismissed in a whole range of ways for doing so. I've seen *zero* sympathy or compassion for that experience from some posters for that, just aggression. For the record Ive found it shameful.

Id like to get involved in the thread but am trying to take a break from it for health reasons (namely it boils my piss too much).

And please stop posting about FUCKING SMIRNOFF ICE.


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Maybe they had a magnum lolly and a bottle of Smirnoff ice





andysays said:


> I reckon she was eating a Magnum and drinking (a standard sized bottle of) Smirnoff Ice...



Do keep up


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> 1.  Yes, she supposedly had her husband with her.  That makes the story less plausible, not more.  How many fathers-to-be would join their heavily-pregnant wife in swigging vodka from the bottle on the tube?  And how did Boswell know it was her husband anyway?


 It's an alcopop and yes I have seen the partners of pregnant women with them when they have been drinking. 



> 2.  "Downing" means finishing.  There is no way that two people, no matter how alcoholic, could down a magnum of Smirnoff Ice between Elephant and Bank, a journey of under ten minutes.  That is impossible.


 Downing doesn't always describe finishing a drink. It can also mean drinking/quickly. Given that we are talking about a sugary alcopop/fizzy drink it is also entirely possible for two adults to be doing this.

So again, you have fuck all evidence to back up your argument that she was lying.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Ah ha the plot thickens. Further complicating this, you cannot actually buy a magnum of Smirnoff Ice. The largest amount you can buy is a 70cl bottle and yes (sadly) I could easily drink that in five minutes.



Could she have meant 'a large bottle' when she used the term 'magnum'? Yes she could have.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

CRI said:


> Sunshine, it's not all about you.



Of course it is. Every fucking thread without fail ends up being about him.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 1, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Could she have meant 'a large bottle' when she used the term 'magnum'? Yes she could have.


Clearly. And please lets leave this bottle thing there.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

J Ed said:


> *tbf none of them have come with the prose filled with classism that this one did.* Not saying that I don't believe this one, judging by events over the past seven days it's very believable regardless of context and even if it isn't true I am sure that hundreds of similar incidents we don't know about have happened.



You don't like the way she looked down her nose and was judgemental about someone who had just called her a nigger?


----------



## ska invita (Jul 1, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You don't like the way she looked down her nose and was judgemental about someone who had just called her a nigger?


thats the way it read to me - she had her back up. AS you would


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

keybored said:
			
		

> Scrolling down her wall makes it look like she might have a bit of an agenda.
> 
> 
> Nice try though. Why aren't some black people allowed to tell porkies? You racist!





Rutita1 said:


> What agenda is that then?



?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 1, 2016)

Go home, thread, you're drunk


----------



## JimW (Jul 1, 2016)

Maybe it was Magnum PI out on the lash in drag.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 1, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Go home, thread, you're drunk


Thread is pretty fucking important at the moment, imo. Important to keep track of this stuff. More important than the sensibilities of a few posters here who seem to take as a personal affront any suggestion that increased racial abuse is directly linked to the brexit vote.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Thread is pretty fucking important at the moment, imo. Important to keep track of this stuff. More important than the sensibilities of a few posters here who seem to take as a personal affront any suggestion that increased racial abuse is directly linked to the brexit vote.


yes it is, which is why it's unfortunate that beef has overshadowed reporting


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> Of course, racism only exists if there is a link to it. I had forgotten that.



This *shouldn't* need saying, but that isn't what the poster claimed, is it?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> This *shouldn't* need saying, but that isn't what the poster claimed, is it?



Coley was mocking him for saying the PB is a friend of a friend. I had no idea who she is but when I clicked the link I can see that 1 of my friends is friends with her. Another one, an urbanite has commented on her page recently. So his story isn't an implausible one at all.


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

All,

Apologies for my part in derailing the thread. I don't want this so will not reply to any more comments here, but will post any incidents I am made aware of.


----------



## ohmyliver (Jul 1, 2016)

Perhaps a supplementary thread could be made, and all the arguments about things like what does the term 'magnum' mean when it's applied to a popular alcopop, or how fast can people drink whilst travelling on public transport can be hived off into that.   

And this thread can go back to it's original purpose.  Please.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 1, 2016)

CRI said:


> _*"it's a deliberate distortion of the issue to suggest that the vote for Brexit was racist"  *
> _
> Once and for all, saying that a massive part of the Brexit campaign was racist is NOT the same as saying everyone who voted for Brexit was racist.   How folks who voted out who weren't racist squared that with their consciences was up to them.  Why they aren't robustly condemning the racist incidents, and the strong racist elements of the campaign is what I find apalling.
> 
> ...


What I think it's worth remembering here is that this is all a game to our Phil. He could just as easily be arguing on the other side of the table this time next week. It doesn't pay to take him too seriously: I made the switch a long time ago, and life suddenly got a lot more peaceful


----------



## ska invita (Jul 1, 2016)

I think there is discussion to be had here rather than just listing stories
(like this one UPDATED Swedish mum in York told "**** off back to your own country")


ohmyliver said:


> Perhaps a supplementary thread could be made, and all the arguments about things like what does the term 'magnum' mean when it's applied to a popular alcopop, or how fast can people drink whilst travelling on public transport can be hived off into that.
> 
> And this thread can go back to it's original purpose.  Please.


reminds me of the there are no Kentucky Fried Chicken on a Fun Run-gate. Ive been here too long


----------



## Sweet FA (Jul 1, 2016)

So person gets racially abused but is disbelieved due to the style in which they described the incident? Fucksake.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Yes, I know what Smirnoff Ice is.  Do you know what a magnum is?  It's about four pints.  The journey between Elephant and Bank takes five minutes.  So you'd have to drink almost a pint a minute, of one of the most disgusting drinks known to humanity, on a crowded tube, while heavily pregnant.
> 
> Are you a betting man by any chance?



A magnum is 51-ish fluid ounces, or just over 3 US pints, and just over 2.5 imperial pints.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 1, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You don't like the way she looked down her nose and was judgemental about someone who had just called her a nigger?



oh come on, anyone denying it happened based on how big a bottle of smirnoff ice is makes then a cunt tbh, but that paragraph is awful and highlights perfectly the deep seated hatred towards the poor that has existed in the UK for over a decade now.  There are many equally bad examples currently on the net, and choosing to highlight someone responding to racism is not the best look, neither is doing it on this thread.  But equally it is worth remembering that there is a group of people in the UK, not all white, but all poor, who have been demonised, abused, and sometimes violently attacked, both at governmental level and in the streets, based on their economic class and nothing else.  That in no way justifies racism, just as what happened to that artist doesn't justify her prejudices, but I have seen some horrifying stuff since the result which if it were based on race, not class, would be prosecutable.


----------



## Sweet FA (Jul 1, 2016)

SHUT UP ABOUT THE FUCKING SIZE OF THE FUCKING BOTTLE FOR FUCK'S SAKE YOU TEDIOUS CUNTS; IT'S ABOUT THE LEAST FUCKING IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THE WHOLE FUCKING STORY.


----------



## IC3D (Jul 1, 2016)

Drinking alcohol on the tube is illegal


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 1, 2016)

Sweet FA said:


> SHUT UP ABOUT THE FUCKING SIZE OF THE FUCKING BOTTLE FOR FUCK'S SAKE YOU TEDIOUS CUNTS; IT'S ABOUT THE LEAST FUCKING IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THE WHOLE FUCKING STORY.




FUCK YOU, YOU BOTTLE-PHOBIC CUNT!!!


----------



## bi0boy (Jul 1, 2016)

I regret starting this thread on here and am now going to use the ignore thread function


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

smokedout said:


> but that paragraph is awful and highlights perfectly the deep seated hatred towards the poor that has existed in the UK for over a decade now.


 I don't think it does highlight that actually.

It's sneery yes but I think you are projecting your associations. If she had gone further I'd agree with you.

...and let's have a few things straight...I'd fucking sneer at her too if she had just called me a nigger. I'd sit there needing to convince myself of all the reasons why I shouldn't  get up and lamp her one and why I needed to be a more mature, tolerant etc but underneath I'd also be fighting the sneering, it's a defense mechanism, and so would anyone else who had a fucking clue what it's like to be on the receiving end of random racist abuse.



> There are many equally bad examples currently on the net, and choosing to highlight someone responding to racism is not the best look, neither is doing it on this thread.



I'm not going for a look. I am pointing out that sometimes the reactions to racism/abuse aren't palatable, they are a reflection of anger, frustration, pain... that feeling of being sick and tired of having to/being told to rise above it. It's just a word, sticks and stones...blahdifuckingblah.

So no, don't tell me to come on as if you've got some special insight that I am missing. I get it.



> But equally it is worth remembering that there is a group of people in the UK, not all white, but all poor, who have been demonised, abused, and sometimes violently attacked, both at governmental level and in the streets, based on their economic class and nothing else.  That in no way justifies racism, just as what happened to that artist doesn't justify her prejudices, but I have seen some horrifying stuff since the result which if it were based on race, not class, would be prosecutable.



Start a thread.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 1, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> I don't think it does highlight that actually.
> 
> It's sneery yes but I think you are projecting your associations. If she had gone further I'd agree with you.
> 
> ...and let's have a few things straight...I'd fucking sneer at her too if she had just called me a nigger. I'd sit there needing to convince myself of all the reasons why I shouldn't  get up and lamp her one and why I needed to be a more mature, tolerant etc but underneath I'd also be fighting the sneering, it's a defense mechanism, and so would anyone else who had a fucking clue what it's like to be on the receiving end of random racist abuse.



I remember, back in the day when I had some middle class friends and one of them got mugged by a couple of black kids.  Suddenly, amongst these perfectly liberal 'nice' young people a load of sneering racism emerged, not overt, much like that paragraph, highlighting perceived stereotypes, making assumptions, comments about appearance based on racist tropes.  It was revealing, and so are her comments.



> I'm not going for a look. I am pointing out that sometimes the reactions to racism/abuse aren't palatable, they are a reflection of anger, frustration, pain... that feeling of being sick and tired of having to/being told to rise above it. It's just a word, sticks and stones...blahdifuckingblah.



that past of my post wasn't aimed at you at all, sorry if you thought it was



> Start a thread.



given how this thread has gone I'm not sure thats such a good idea


----------



## ginger_syn (Jul 1, 2016)

Well it would get this thread back on point


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

Alright, serious question.  Is there any hard evidence for an increase in racial assaults/abuse following the referendum?  As in crime statistics, police reports and the like?  Or is it just anecdotal?


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Alright, serious question.  Is there any hard evidence for an increase in racial assaults/abuse following the referendum?  As in crime statistics, police reports and the like?  Or is it just anecdotal?


I reckon it'll be a while before comparative stats are available but when people are actually mentioning the referendum result as part of the abuse it's safe to say it probably had something to do with it.

I'm not sure why you're sceptical that racial assaults increased after the vote. I think it was an absolute certainty that they would.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> I reckon it'll be a while before comparative stats are available but when people are actually mentioning the referendum result as part of the abuse, it's safe to say it probably had something to do with it.



Hang on, what people are mentioning it?  I think you're jumping to conclusions here.

There are plenty of reasons for racists to vote Remain.  Being in the EU causes us to have a _de facto _racist immigration policy.  Immigrants from Europe tend to be white, unlike those from the Commonwealth, who they have replaced.

Also, there are many good reasons for anti-racists to vote Leave.  As I've said on another thread, we owe a historical debt to the Commonwealth that we don't to Europe, and for that reason I'd rather see immigrants come from there--in fact that's the main reason I'm in favor of Leave.

I don't suppose there's any actual data on how racists voted.  There seems to be a concerted media campaign to associate the Leave campaign with racism, but I don't see any necessary connection myself..


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> There are plenty of reasons for racists to vote Remain.  Being in the EU causes us to have a _de facto _racist immigration policy.  Immigrants from Europe tend to be white, unlike those from the Commonwealth, who they have replaced..


tbh I think you're out of touch with current realities in the UK. People from Eastern Europe today face the same kinds of prejudices that people from the Commonwealth faced in the 60s or 70s. They may be white, but that doesn't stop a kind of abuse that comes from the same place as racism, and from the same people mostly.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Hang on, what people are mentioning it?  I think you're jumping to conclusions here.
> 
> There are plenty of reasons for racists to vote Remain.  Being in the EU causes us to have a _de facto _racist immigration policy.  Immigrants from Europe tend to be white, unlike those from the Commonwealth, who they have replaced.
> 
> ...



Dunno what data you want - all the far right groups were campaigning for Leave, there were loads of shots of known BNP / NF / Britain First / EDL / etc members on street stalls and the like campaigning for leave.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Also, there are many good reasons for anti-racists to vote Leave.  As I've said on another thread, we owe a historical debt to the Commonwealth that we don't to Europe, and for that reason I'd rather see immigrants come from there--in fact that's the main reason I'm in favor of Leave.



Fuck off Dwyer.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 1, 2016)

Forgot to say, saw my cousin yesterday to watch the football with, his English isnt great, and he said he doesn't dare speak in public as he doesnt want to draw attention to himself.... a lot of that is in his mind of course, but that mood is very much out there now.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh I think you're out of touch with current realities in the UK. People from Eastern Europe today face the same kinds of prejudices that people from the Commonwealth faced in the 60s or 70s. They may be white, but that doesn't stop a kind of abuse that comes from the same place as racism, and from the same people mostly.



The EU's hardly innocent of racism itself, as its attitude to Turkey has always shown, and as its attitude to the Syrian refugees has recently confirmed.  To see it now associated with the supposedly anti-racist side of the debate seems bizarre to me.

I also think you're naive to equate the current situation of white European immigrants with that of immigrants from the Commonwealth in the 60s.  The degree of prejudice may have been comparable, but the its causes and manifestations were entirely different.  And "racism" is a misnomer for hostile prejudice towards foreigners of one's own race anyway.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> I don't suppose there's any actual data on how racists voted.  There seems to be a concerted media campaign to associate the Leave campaign with racism, but I don't see any necessary connection myself..



Yeah there was a special little box at the top of each ballot for racist people to tick. I'm sure we'll get the figures on that soon.


----------



## ohmyliver (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Alright, serious question.  Is there any hard evidence for an increase in racial assaults/abuse following the referendum?  As in crime statistics, police reports and the like?  Or is it just anecdotal?


There's been a big rise in racist crime reports in the UK since the Brexit vote
Police are stating a 5 fold increase in racist/xenophobic incidents reported.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 1, 2016)

BigTom said:


> Dunno what data you want - all the far right groups were campaigning for Leave, there were loads of shots of known BNP / NF / Britain First / EDL / etc members on street stalls and the like campaigning for leave.



The organized far right may have voted Leave; it doesn't follow that all or even most racists did likewise.

Tbh, I suspect that they did.  But I also think the connection between Leave and racism has been over-emphasized as part of the media's campaign to denigrate--and if possible ignore or reverse--the referendum result.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2016)

smokedout said:


> I remember, back in the day when I had some middle class friends and one of them got mugged by a couple of black kids.  Suddenly, amongst these perfectly liberal 'nice' young people a load of sneering racism emerged, not overt, much like that paragraph...



Nope. Your attempt to _equalise/compare _how PB described the woman who called her a nigger with a story about nice middle class people getting mugged by a couple of Black kids ...simply comes over to be as 'whataboutery'...



> highlighting perceived stereotypes, making assumptions, comments about appearance based on racist tropes.  It was revealing, and so are her comments.


 Unless you are prepared to share what these are your story is nothing more than an attempt to write I'M RIGHT, COS I SAID SO in red pen all over the thread.

Also, how would you working class friends have reacted?



> that past of my post wasn't aimed at you at all, sorry if you thought it was


You wrote this:



> There are many equally bad examples currently on the net, and choosing to highlight someone responding to racism is not the best look, neither is doing it on this thread.



...in response to the preceeding discussion that led me to asking J ED:



> You don't like the way she looked down her nose and was judgemental about someone who had just called her a nigger?



...now yes you may have had other examples of things you have seen on the net in mind too but your whole post was built off the back of my question and the conversation that went before, that's why you quoted it.



> given how this thread has gone I'm not sure that's such a good idea



Urban can be both a  great and/or terrible place to have difficult conversations IMO...you won't know unless you try it out.

It would be interesting I think.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 1, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> The organized far right may have voted Leave; it doesn't follow that all or even most racists did likewise.
> 
> Tbh, I suspect that they did.  But I also think the connection between Leave and racism has been over-emphasized as part of the media's campaign to denigrate--and if possible ignore or reverse--the referendum result.



Logic suggests they would though doesn't it, and in the absence of data around individual voters (which you're not going to get), it's the best measure.

I agree the connection between leave and racism has been over-emphasised in the sense that I think that most people who voted leave aren't racist and didn't vote for racist reasons. However I think you are totally wrong to suggest that racists voted to stay because of the racism of the eu migration laws.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 1, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Nope. Your attempt to _equalise/compare _how PB described the woman who called her a nigger with a story about nice middle class people getting mugged by a couple of Black kids ...simply comes over to be as 'whataboutery'...
> 
> Unless you are prepared to share what these are your story is nothing more than an attempt to write I'M RIGHT, COS I SAID SO in red pen all over the thread.



I cant remember exactly, it was nearly two decades ago, it was along the lines of 'those people' who have different values/culture, they weren't educated, they could still afford Nike trainers, they were more prone to violence.  I mentioned it because when I first read that facebook post it reminded me of it.



> Also, how would you working class friends have reacted?



not like that tbh, but then my working class friends aren't closet racists, they wouldn't be my friends if they were.



> You wrote this:
> 
> ...in response to the preceeding discussion that led me to asking J ED:
> 
> ...now yes you may have had other examples of things you have seen on the net in mind too but your whole post was built off the back of my question and the conversation that went before, that's why you quoted it.



I'm not getting into this, I said that part of my post wasn't aimed at you, I apologised if I gave that impression, if you still insist it was there's not much I can do.



> Urban can be both a  great and/or terrible place to have difficult conversations IMO...you won't know unless you try it out.
> 
> It would be interesting I think.



there's one here that probably fits: Immigration and the "racist thickos"


----------



## 8den (Jul 2, 2016)

Sweet FA said:


> SHUT UP ABOUT THE FUCKING SIZE OF THE FUCKING BOTTLE FOR FUCK'S SAKE YOU TEDIOUS CUNTS; IT'S ABOUT THE LEAST FUCKING IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THE WHOLE FUCKING STORY.



Q. Two racists are drinking 4 pints of smirnoff on the tube at 5pm. The tube is traveling south at 35mph. They drink 2 pints a minute, how many miles will they travel before they start  abusing another passenger?


----------



## Sweet FA (Jul 2, 2016)

8den said:


> Q. Two racists are drinking 4 pints of smirnoff on the tube at 5pm. The tube is traveling south at 35mph. They drink 2 pints a minute, how many miles will they travel before they start  abusing another passenger?


SATs in post-brexit Britain?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 2, 2016)

hahahaha! It's all a fucking laugh, if you don't laugh you'll cry etc.


----------



## 8den (Jul 2, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> hahahaha! It's all a fucking laugh, if you don't laugh you'll cry etc.



I wasn't laughing at the racism, more at Dwyers ability to seize an irrelevant point in an attempt to derail the thread.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2016)

8den said:


> Q. Two racists are drinking 4 pints of smirnoff on the tube at 5pm. The tube is traveling south at 35mph. They drink 2 pints a minute, how many miles will they travel before they start  abusing another passenger?



*MATHS WANKER!!!*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 2, 2016)

iStreetWatch - report racism and xenophobia


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Just in from a night out and 2 more things to add.

Female friend told to go back to her own fuking country.  She was aware this might happen and had decided not to respond to any abuse.  She now wishes she had said something. She also told me that her cousin had been discussing the referendum result on Friday night regarding his job security.  He heard someone at the next table saying that they, I guess meaning either Muslim or asian or immigrants in general should not be allowed to vote.


----------



## dessiato (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Just in from a night out and 2 more things to add.
> 
> Female friend told to go back to her own fuking country.  She was aware this might happen and had decided not to respond to any abuse.  She now wishes she had said something. She also told me that her cousin had been discussing the referendum result on Friday night regarding his job security.  He heard someone at the next table saying that they, I guess meaning either Muslim or asian or immigrants in general should not be allowed to vote.
> 
> View attachment 89152


He died on Saturday. This quote of his should, IMO, be something we all bear in mind.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 3, 2016)

Post removed because I don't want to get into an argument on this thread.


----------



## RubyToogood (Jul 3, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> I don't suppose there's any actual data on how racists voted.  There seems to be a concerted media campaign to associate the Leave campaign with racism, but I don't see any necessary connection myself..


It doesn't matter whether leavers voted leave for racist reasons or not. It was immediately apparent after the results that both racists and those likely to be their victims felt that they had.

To which I would add that I think it is a mistake to think of people as either "racists" or "non-racists". Racism is an idea and ideas can spread. Fast.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 3, 2016)

A perspective from a close friend of mine. 



> I have been feeling a bit uneasy when reading this week's papers and FB comments about the rise on racism and xenophobia since the referendum. Advice is given by the media to report a racist crime. In my opinion, I don't believe there is "more" racism. Racist behavoiur and racist attacks is an everyday struggle for Black and Asian communities. The haters have just extended their attacks to white privilege migrants like me, because after the referendum, they feel more confident to speak out. Racism and Xenophobia has never being addressed properly because it only affects some people. Specially institutional racism. But now that it also affects some whites, there is an outcry in the media and society. That my friends, it is just an example of white privilege.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 3, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> A perspective from a close friend of mine.


I think there is some truth in that. I do think there has been an increase, but there would have been one whichever way the vote went. I don't think the outcry is just because racism is now affecting a few well of white people although it probably plays a part. I think it is largely motivated by a desire to tarnish the leave voters for having the temerity to vote the wrong way.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 3, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I think there is some truth in that. I do think there has been an increase, but there would have been one whichever way the vote went. I don't think the outcry is just because racism is now affecting a few well of white people although it probably plays a part. *I think it is largely motivated by a desire to tarnish the leave voters for having the temerity to vote the wrong way*.



Did you notice she didn't mention 'leave voters'? 



> there would have been one whichever way the vote went.


 I agree with you on this point. The damage had already been done.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> A perspective from a close friend of mine.


Yeh. Well, s/he's welcome to their opinion that racism only affects some people, but I'd say that it affects us all because among other things it keeps peorple divided, plus it's not like racism has only just affected white people, it's affected e.g. Irish people for centuries. I suspect among the drivers for the publicity of recent racist abuse has been social media and the coincidence or alignment of the media view of so many leavers as racist, so incidents receive attention in the media which in other circumstances they might not.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 3, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Did you notice she didn't mention 'leave voters'?


She doesn't, but she says the reason for the sudden outcry against racism is becauae it now affects some white people. I agree with her on this to an extent. But I also think there is at attempt to tarnish the leave vote as just racist, probably both deliberately and unconsciously.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. Well, s/he's welcome to their opinion that racism only affects some people, but I'd say that it affects us all because among other things it keeps peorple divided, plus it's not like racism has only just affected white people, it's affected e.g. Irish people for centuries. I suspect among the drivers for the publicity of recent racist abuse has been social media and the coincidence or alignment of the media view of so many leavers as racist, so incidents receive attention in the media which in other circumstances they might not.


Something I though of saying, was that she makes no mention of the racism that has been directing to Poles, and Romanians recently.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Did you notice she didn't mention 'leave voters'?


the identification of leave with racism is more certain or complete than the identification of remain with racism.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2016)

> Citizens UK is an organisation that promotes community organising across England and Wales. Neil Jameson, its executive director, says that it has heard of hundreds of incidents across the country since the referendum. “It’s not physical violence, it’s violent words and stares and hostility. Its unwelcomeness and being told, ‘Go home’.”



‘Mama, will you be deported?’: Brexit vote triggers eruption of racism


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 3, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Something I though of saying, was that she makes no mention of the racism that has been directing to Poles, and Romanians recently.



Who do you think she is refering to when she said 'White migrants like me'?

Funny how you find it so easy to imagine she is blaming all Leave voters but can't decode the bloody obvious in what she said. She is a migrant, her first language isn't English and yes, she has faced her fair share of prejudice in the time she has lived here in the UK.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 3, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Who do you think she is refering to when she said 'White migrants like me'?
> 
> Funny how you find it so easy to imagine she is blaming all Leave voters but can't decode the bloody obvious in what she said. She is a migrant, her first language isn't English and yes, she has faced her fair share of prejudice in the time she has lived here in the UK.


Where do you get the idea I think she's blaming leave voters for anything?

Or anyone for anything for that matter.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 3, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I think there is some truth in that. I do think there has been an increase, but there would have been one whichever way the vote went. I don't think the outcry is just because racism is now affecting a few well of white people although it probably plays a part. I think it is largely motivated by a desire to tarnish the leave voters for having the temerity to vote the wrong way.


For some perhaps. For many others the outcry will be due to shock and disgust at the rise in racist abuse. Just that ought to be enough for an outcry whichever way you voted.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> For some perhaps. For many others the outcry will be due to shock and disgust at the rise in racist abuse. Just that ought to be enough for an outcry whichever way you voted.



It's a shame that the outrage, from both sides, hasn't manifested in attacks on those responsible for opening the flood gates. Happens every time, politicians and some/most papers use racist, xenophobic or bigoted lines to promote their view one way or another. People are outraged, then a week later they get back to it. The aftermath of the London mayoral election is a good show of that.

They're allowed to get away with it though. A lot of people wasting their time on safety pins instead of laying real blame.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 3, 2016)

YouSir said:


> It's a shame that the outrage, from both sides, hasn't manifested in attacks on those responsible for opening the flood gates. Happens every time, politicians and some/most papers use racist, xenophobic or bigoted lines to promote their view one way or another. People are outraged, then a week later they get back to it. The aftermath of the London mayoral election is a good show of that.
> 
> They're allowed to get away with it though. A lot of people wasting their time on safety pins instead of laying real blame.


The London mayoral election is a bit different in that the racist campaign failed and the racist was heavily defeated in some part because of his racist campaign.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I think it is largely motivated by a desire to tarnish the leave voters for having the temerity to vote the wrong way.



This is undoubtably true.  It's difficult even for a non-biased journalist to perfectly steer between reporting what is a clear rise in racist incidents and giving that the attention it deserves, and not over-reporting/sensationalising it leading to unnecessary fears and even helping fuel it.  But when you've  a story about graffiti that is alleged to say Go Home in the copy run with a picture that shows graffiti that says something quite different, and everyday burglaries being reported as racist attacks then there is a clear agenda being pursued by some sections of the press.  It's a bit too gleeful in some quarters, and is significant as an example of the way 'soft', or veiled racism has been exploited by the Remain campaign ever since this started.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The London mayoral election is a bit different in that the racist campaign failed and the racist was heavily defeated in some part because of his racist campaign.



Aye, example stands though as the tools used haven't gone away. Try the rise of UKIP instead if you like, fed by a racist undercurrent in the mainstream which is very rarely challenged. Or the hype the EDL received at one point, or the BNP. Built and peaked by parasites in the media and politics despite having negligable support beforehand. They're just the flare ups though, the issue is the constant running anti-immigrant, bigoted narrative that's taken as normal.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> This is undoubtably true.  It's difficult even for a non-biased journalist to perfectly steer between reporting what is a clear rise in racist incidents and giving that the attention it deserves, and not over-reporting/sensationalising it leading to unnecessary fears and even helping fuel it.  But when you've  a story about graffiti that is alleged to say Go Home in the copy run with a picture that shows graffiti that says something quite different, and everyday burglaries being reported as racist attacks then there is a clear agenda being pursued by some sections of the press.  It's a bit too gleeful in some quarters, and is significant as an example of the way 'soft', or veiled racism has been exploited by the Remain campaign ever since this started.



My turn to go all conspiracy theory. Why is the media, well Newsshopper, claiming that a smashed window, nothing taken but the place ransacked is a burglary, based on a few social media comments. Last time I checked burglaries involved theft, while smashing up a place can be hate crime.

I may well be wrong but the ES photo looks photoshoped to me. Never seen spray paint look like that. I had a closer look because the ES is not exactly a neutral paper.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> claiming that a smashed window, nothing taken but the place ransacked is a burglary, based on a few social media comments. Last time I checked burglaries involved theft, while smashing up a place can be hate crime.


 
dunno.

could have been an attempted burglary, but they didn't find any cash or anything worth stealing.  not unknown for people who have broken in but not found anything to make a mess looking, or to do some damage because they are pissed off at not finding anything.

there doesn't seem to be any specific evidence (e.g. racist graffiti) that it was a hate crime, but not seeking to dismiss the possibility. 

i guess that unless the people who did it are caught, we're not going to know.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> My turn to go all conspiracy theory. Why is the media, well Newsshopper, claiming that a smashed window, nothing taken but the place ransacked is a burglary, based on a few social media comments. Last time I checked burglaries involved theft, while smashing up a place can be hate crime.



Possibly because that's what the police say, and that's what local people seem to be saying, pointing out several recent similar burglaries.  Possibly because in a street full of ethnic minority businesses, many selling 'ethnic' food, one of the businesses that was attacked was the greasy spoon.  Possibly because attempted break-ins happen all the time and there is no evidence at all this was linked to the referendum  (and for those saying hmm bit of a coincidence, it was actually a near certainty, google probability, hacks know this).



> I may well be wrong but the ES photo looks photoshoped to me. Never seen spray paint look like that. I had a closer look because the ES is not exactly a neutral paper.



Mirror reported the graffiti as saying fuck the omp.  The Standard was heavily in favour of remain by the way.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> My turn to go all conspiracy theory. Why is the media, well Newsshopper, claiming that a smashed window, nothing taken but the place ransacked is a burglary, based on a few social media comments. Last time I checked burglaries involved theft, while smashing up a place can be hate crime.
> 
> I may well be wrong but the ES photo looks photoshoped to me. Never seen spray paint look like that. I had a closer look because the ES is not exactly a neutral paper.



It's not 'shopped. It isn't spray-paint. It's been written with a foam paint pad.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 3, 2016)

YouSir said:


> A lot of people wasting their time on safety pins instead of laying real blame.


I don't quite get this. Not nearly enough in and of itself, sure, but a waste of time? It's a waste of time to attempt a form of showing solidarity with people, regardless of how you voted? I think the opposite, really. Perhaps this one thing will prove to be nothing, but some kind of cross-leave/remain solidarity with immigrants _is needed_.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> dunno.
> 
> could have been an attempted burglary, but they didn't find any cash or anything worth stealing.  not unknown for people who have broken in but not found anything to make a mess looking, or to do some damage because they are pissed off at not finding anything.
> 
> ...



I suppose It is fair to say we can't be sure either way.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't quite get this. Not nearly enough in and of itself, sure, but a waste of time? It's a waste of time to attempt a form of showing solidarity with people, regardless of how you voted? I think the opposite, really. Perhaps this one thing will prove to be nothing, but some kind of cross-leave/remain solidarity with immigrants _is needed_.



I've nothing against people doing it, I just don't see the point. Who would even notice? And what followup will there be from it? There are better ways to show solidarity, arguing against racist or xenophobic opinions, arguing against racist or xenophobic voices etc.

Just feels like a self serving act of niceness which will literally go unnoticed as you walk around. As I say though, not really against it.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Possibly because that's what the police say, and that's what local people seem to be saying, pointing out several recent similar burglaries.  Possibly because in a street full of ethnic minority businesses, many selling 'ethnic' food, one of the businesses that was attacked was the greasy spoon.  Possibly because attempted break-ins happen all the time and there is no evidence at all this was linked to the referendum  (and for those saying hmm bit of a coincidence, it was actually a near certainty, google probability, hacks know this).
> 
> 
> 
> Mirror reported the graffiti as saying fuck the omp.  The Standard was heavily in favour of remain by the way.



Not sure I would trust the police but as another poster pointed out we can't be sure either way.

The Standard made it look like it just said you, followed by a squiggle. Whatever it said as the first two words were fuck you it seems pretty clear It was a hate motivated thing.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not 'shopped. It isn't spray-paint. It's been written with a foam paint pad.



OK, I had no idea people used paint pads to do graffiti. It looked like one of those brush tools from photo editing software. Still looks like a hate crime to me as the first two words were fuck you.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Saw this on my Facebook feed. 


Not good Naina! 
This is what I received yesterday in one of my groups from a member of council .....it is filtering down to kids as well... Suggest talk to your kids and look out for any signs of underlying fear being developed.... 
"Friends please be vigilant our kids are being racially attacked in schools by other kids. There is an increase of above 60℅  of hate crime in MK after 23rd. Some people are using Brexit as a green signal to attack immigrants no one knows we are citizens"


----------



## smokedout (Jul 3, 2016)

Anju said:


> Not sure I would trust the police but as another poster pointed out we can't be sure either way.



Local people say it wasn't a racist attack, the Forest Hill Society which largely represents local businesses say it wasn't a racist attack, the local press say it wasn't a racist attack, and the police, who probably know things we don't about the incident also say it wasn't a racist attack.  But we should keep an open mind eh.

The only people who insist it was a racist attack appears to be The Metro, who claim not to do politics yet also have as one of their editorial picks a story claiming the Walsall incident was definitely a Brexit linked racist attack, when in fact it probably wasn't.



> The Standard made it look like it just said you, followed by a squiggle. Whatever it said as the first two words were fuck you it seems pretty clear It was a hate motivated thing.



But it didn't say Go Home did it, which is what the report said.  It does not undermine what is happening to have some basic rigour and understand that even people on your own side have agendas.  In fact to ignore that undermines what is happening, because racism doesn't just happen on buses but also in the newsrooms of national newspapers where some are trying to make political capital out of a shocking rise in racist incidents.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> A perspective from a close friend of mine.



In agreement with your friend.

Akala gives a pretty good insight in this video, starting 2 minutes in.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 3, 2016)

Great show of anti-racist anti-fascist solidarity in Brighton today!


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 3, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Great show of anti-racist anti-fascist solidarity in Brighton today!



I was there and applauded the calls for practical day to day opposition to racism, including those to report incidents. I also thought the turn out which I'd put at between 2 and 3 hundred, was pretty good.

I was less convinced by the near complete absence of an acknowledgement of the racist and elite character of the EU. My impression was that even when the anti-working class origins and practices of the EU were mentioned (either explicitly as by the first speaker, or implicitly on a couple of occasions in later contributions) the attitude was that this should have somehow been put to one side. Mr Bishie I'd be interested if you shared this impression or is it just me misreading the situation?

I wasn't expecting someone to hear a call for 'fight racism oppose the EU' (feelings in the crowd were too raw for that sort of demand to get a hearing), but I would have liked a bit more space left open for that argument to be had a little way down the road. This is particularly the case when many of the speeches made calls for working together between those on the left and between anti-racists.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 3, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I was less convinced by the near complete absence of an acknowledgement of the racist and elite character of the EU. My impression was that even when the anti-working class origins and practices of the EU were mentioned (either explicitly as by the first speaker, or implicitly on a couple of occasions in later contributions) the attitude was that this should have somehow been put to one side. Mr Bishie I'd be interested if you shared this impression or is it just me misreading the situation?



To be honest it was acknowledged - second speaker? Like was said, everyone is all a bit exhausted with the EU trope - this was addressing anti racism in particular.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 3, 2016)

We must hook up for a beer soon though!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> To be honest it was acknowledged - second speaker? Like was said, everyone is all a bit exhausted with the EU trope - this was addressing anti racism in particular.


We need a reformed clash to reprise their 'bored with the USA' as 'bored with the eu'


----------



## existentialist (Jul 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't quite get this. Not nearly enough in and of itself, sure, but a waste of time? It's a waste of time to attempt a form of showing solidarity with people, regardless of how you voted? I think the opposite, really. Perhaps this one thing will prove to be nothing, but some kind of cross-leave/remain solidarity with immigrants _is needed_.


Also, finding and pinning on a safety pin doesn't take all that much time.


----------



## Anju (Jul 3, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Also, finding and pinning on a safety pin doesn't take all that much time.



When the only one you have is holding your trousers up it ends up being a bit embarrassing.


----------



## Uppity Oik (Jul 4, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Possibly because that's what the police say, and that's what local people seem to be saying, pointing out several recent similar burglaries.  Possibly because in a street full of ethnic minority businesses, many selling 'ethnic' food, one of the businesses that was attacked was the greasy spoon.  Possibly because attempted break-ins happen all the time and there is no evidence at all this was linked to the referendum  (and for those saying hmm bit of a coincidence, it was actually a near certainty, google probability, hacks know this).
> 
> 
> 
> Mirror reported the graffiti as saying fuck the omp.  The Standard was heavily in favour of remain by the way.


What the fuck is an  "OMP"?


----------



## fishfinger (Jul 4, 2016)

Uppity Oik said:


> What the fuck is an  "OMP"?



A Polish think tank

Ośrodek Myśli Politycznej


----------



## Uppity Oik (Jul 4, 2016)

Rather fluid and elegant writing style for Graffiti.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Uppity Oik said:


> Rather fluid and elegant writing style for Graffiti.


An interesting y


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 4, 2016)

fishfinger said:


> A Polish think tank
> 
> Ośrodek Myśli Politycznej



Seems a very obscure thing to write the side of a building. Has anything more come out about who may be responsible?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 4, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> An interesting y



Why so?


----------



## Uppity Oik (Jul 4, 2016)

If OMP isn't a derogatory slang word, and going by the writing style, this may not be a racial thing, but just an internal thing, a disgruntled associate or employee or something.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Why so?


Tbh imo that writing looks more European than British, most British people would do a Y than have a u with the descending portion of a g.  Like American handwriting so often distinctive I wonder whether this might not be some internal beef taken to graffiti. Doubt many non-poles would know their omp from their bomp.


----------



## Uppity Oik (Jul 4, 2016)

I agree, the style of writing looks European, and it is too elegant for regular Graffiti writing and what was it written with? certainly not a spray can.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 4, 2016)

Uppity Oik said:


> If OMP isn't a derogatory slang word, and going by the writing style, this may not be a racial thing, but just an internal thing, a disgruntled associate or employee or something.





Pickman's model said:


> Tbh imo that writing looks more European than British, most British people would do a Y than have a u with the descending portion of a g.  Like American handwriting so often distinctive I wonder whether this might not be some internal beef taken to graffiti. Doubt many non-poles would know their omp from their bomp.



This does seem likely considering the reference to an obscure conservative think tank. Doesn't really help the cause of anti-racism for newspapers to be manufacturing controversies where none exist. Especially since there are probably quite a few examples of actual racism occurring.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 4, 2016)

Uppity Oik said:


> I agree, the style of writing looks European, and it is too elegant for regular Graffiti writing and what was it written with? certainly not a spray can.



Most probably a paint pad as discussed up thread.


----------



## fishfinger (Jul 4, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Seems a very obscure thing to write the side of a building. Has anything more come out about who may be responsible?


If it is referring to Ośrodek Myśli Politycznej, then it may be a Polish person, or someone trying to sow discord amongst Poles.


----------



## Uppity Oik (Jul 4, 2016)

A regular Paint Pad would be awkward, I thought maybe there was some thing like those shoe polish applicators (see below) but for another job,


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Uppity Oik said:


> A regular Paint Pad would be awkward, I thought maybe there was some thing like those shoe polish applicators (see below) but for another job,


Yeh but could they do it while swigging vodka?


----------



## Libertad (Jul 4, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh but could they do it while swigging vodka?



Smirnoff Ice dammit.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 4, 2016)

I was given a "Love London: No Place For Hate" sticker by this lot outside my station this morning:
Love London. No Place for Hate: London Citizens Gather in Solidarity Against Hate Crime


----------



## Anju (Jul 4, 2016)

I


Uppity Oik said:


> A regular Paint Pad would be awkward, I thought maybe there was some thing like those shoe polish applicators (see below) but for another job,



I still say that is a false image. Look at the way it goes over the frame and at the end of each stroke where the paint is thick there is not a single drip.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> I
> 
> 
> I still say that is a false image. Look at the way it goes over the frame and at the end of each stroke where the paint is thick there is not a single drip.


The bloke pictured cleaning it off - fake as well? And you don't get drips with what has been suggested was used.


----------



## Uppity Oik (Jul 4, 2016)

It looks false but it can't be so, they wouldn't print it in a news paper.


----------



## Uppity Oik (Jul 4, 2016)

It wasn't the drips that make me puzzle over it, it is the going over several different height surfaces ie the frames, so smoothly.


----------



## Anju (Jul 4, 2016)

Uppity Oik said:


> It looks false but it can't be so, they wouldn't print it in a news paper.



Also the uniformity of the thicker areas at the start and end of each stroke.


----------



## keybored (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> I
> 
> 
> I still say that is a false image.





Uppity Oik said:


> It looks false but it can't be so, they wouldn't print it in a news paper.



Maybe a different angle will help.


----------



## pengaleng (Jul 4, 2016)

I deffo catch vibes when I tell people me surname now, theres a look, not like the disabled pity look, just one of oh you're not from here


----------



## Anju (Jul 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The bloke pictured cleaning it off - fake as well? And you don't get drips with what has been suggested was used.



It's very artistic use of a paint pad. Don't think i would have the skills to achieve the different thickness of lines.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> It's very artistic use of a paint pad. Don't think i would have the skills to achieve the different thickness of lines.


Well then it clearly never happened, nor did anything else that you would be unable to achive. All examples of that are faked up.


----------



## keybored (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> It's very artistic use of a paint pad. Don't think i would have the skills to achieve the different thickness of lines.


Would you have the skills to do it in Photoshop? On two separate pictures?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> It's very artistic use of a paint pad. Don't think i would have the skills to achieve the different thickness of lines.


what, is your handwriting like the dancing of drunken spiders who've trodden in ink?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

keybored said:


> Would you have the skills to do it in Photoshop? On two separate pictures?


not even in a pen shop i suspect


----------



## Anju (Jul 4, 2016)

keybored said:


> Would you have the skills to do it in Photoshop? On two separate pictures?



Yes. The effect is exactly the same as a fake spray can or similar tool. People claiming it was a paint pad does not add up. You would not get the sort of 3D effect, with such variation in line thickness, plus the uniform straightness over what looks like thick frames.

It is not two separate pictures. Just different copies of the same one.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2016)

Fucking hell.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes. The effect is exactly the same as a fake spray can or similar tool. People claiming it was a paint pad does not add up. You would not get the sort of 3D effect, with such variation in line thickness, plus the uniform straightness over what looks like thick frames.


so how do you suggest the 'u' (for example) appears to be in the same place from two different angles?


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jul 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Fucking hell.


We did it urban!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 4, 2016)

I'm struggling to see why someone would want to photoshop the words 'fuck you OMP' on a picture.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)




----------



## Anju (Jul 4, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> so how do you suggest the 'u' (for example) appears to be in the same place from two different angles?



It is just two copies of the same picture.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

you're full of shit Anju, unless you're saying there's a conspiracy, because it's been actually physically seen by people, including the police. and i think even the police might notice if upon attending the scene of an alleged crime there's nothing there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> It is just two copies of the same picture.


no, it isn't.


----------



## keybored (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> It is just two copies of the same picture.


You've excelled yourself this time.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes. The effect is exactly the same as a fake spray can or similar tool. People claiming it was a paint pad does not add up. You would not get the sort of 3D effect, with such variation in line thickness, plus the uniform straightness over what looks like thick frames.
> 
> It is not two separate pictures. Just different copies of the same one.



I am struggling to understand why you think this if fake and what motivation there would be to fake it?


----------



## Anju (Jul 4, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm struggling to see why someone would want to photoshop the words 'fuck you OMP' on a picture.



People were saying that the Polish centre lied about the wording of the graffiti and that it didn't say go home, trying to make it seem that the media are escalating the extent of the racist reaction. Even suggesting here that it was done by Polish people themselves.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> People were saying that the Polish centre lied about the wording of the graffiti and that it didn't say go home, trying to make it seem that the media are escalating the extent of the racist reaction. Even suggesting here that it was done by Polish people themselves.



So someone photoshopped out the words 'go home' and replaced it with 'fuck you omp'?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> People were saying that the Polish centre lied about the wording of the graffiti and that it didn't say go home, trying to make it seem that the media are escalating the extent of the racist reaction. Even suggesting here that it was done by Polish people themselves.


No, they suggested that the media reporting was inaccurate, not that the polish centre lied - for instance the mail said the graf said fuck off, when it clearly said fuck you. And this may be indicative of slack reporting on other incidents. Rather like your slack reading on this and other threads. Slack reading that actually smears the posters.


----------



## keybored (Jul 4, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> So someone photoshopped out the words 'go home' and replaced it with 'fuck you omp'?



...and deleted every copy of the original from the Internet.


----------



## Anju (Jul 4, 2016)

No, in the original reports it said that the graffiti had been washed off and the police would not reveal what it said.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> No, in the original reports it said that the graffiti had been washed off and the police would not reveal what it said.


It was washed off - there are pictures if it being washed off.

WTF is this?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> No, in the original reports it said that the graffiti had been washed off and the police would not reveal what it said.



Link?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> It is just two copies of the same picture.


What? They clearly aren't


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 4, 2016)

Other threads gone tits up.
This is for anecdotal and reported evidence of racially and otherly motivated abuse that has happened since the Referendum result.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 4, 2016)

So let me get this story straight. Unknown assailants daub the front of the Polish Centre with words that were cleaned off before the cameras got there. Police refuse to say what was written but the owners of the centre claim it was 'fuck off home' or somesuch phrase. Then someone on the tinterwebs photoshopped a picture of the building with the words 'fuck you omp' on it, which some speculate is a reference to an obscure conservative think tank in Poland. The question remains.. why?


----------



## Virtual Blue (Jul 4, 2016)

What happened to the other thread?
I was going to post something on it as my friend who's British Chinese was told to 'go home' the other day.
It was worse because this happened in London.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 4, 2016)

We don't need a new thread we simply have to wrestle the other one back on topic.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 4, 2016)

There's a nasty old lady who lives on the same road as my school. She's known for shouting racial abuse at the pupils of the school. She has stepped up her game now and started throwing things. Police are involved.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jul 4, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> There's a nasty old lady who lives on the same road as my school. She's known for shouting racial abuse at the pupils of the school. She has stepped up her game now and started throwing things. Police are involved.


That's messed up. Police shouldn't be "involved", they should have arrested her and chucked her in the cells.


----------



## Anju (Jul 4, 2016)

smokedout said:


> This is undoubtably true.  It's difficult even for a non-biased journalist to perfectly steer between reporting what is a clear rise in racist incidents and giving that the attention it deserves, and not over-reporting/sensationalising it leading to unnecessary fears and even helping fuel it.  But when you've  a story about graffiti that is alleged to say Go Home in the copy run with a picture that shows graffiti that says something quite different, and everyday burglaries being reported as racist attacks then there is a clear agenda being pursued by some sections of the press.  It's a bit too gleeful in some quarters, and is significant as an example of the way 'soft', or veiled racism has been exploited by the Remain campaign ever since this started.



OK, this is why I reacted to the picture. Maybe it is just not a great picture and the paint pad vandal is a master paint pad artist.  I could be wrong but I keep encountering people here who are claiming that the reporting of racist incidents is a conspiracy or attempt to make leave voters or the leave vote look bad and I admit this is probably making me rather angry and impairing my judgement.


----------



## Virtual Blue (Jul 4, 2016)

Buddy Bradley said:


> That's messed up. Police shouldn't be "involved", they should have arrested her and chucked her in the cells.



I had a neighbour like that but she wasn't intentionally nasty - she was vulnerable and needed help...


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2016)

keybored said:


> Maybe a different angle will help.



I posted much earleir in the thread about the contested nature of this 'attack', I don't think you often see hate grafitti like that, but the liberals have decided so it is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> OK, this is why I reacted to the picture. Maybe it is just not a great picture and the paint pad vandal is a master paint pad artist.  I could be wrong but I keep encountering people here who are claiming that the reporting of racist incidents is a conspiracy or attempt to make leave voters or the leave vote look bad and I admit this is probably making me rather angry and impairing my judgement.


YOU are saying it's a conspiracy  with your it's photoshopped bollocks and your there were no pictures of it bit  if you can't deal with this under the slightest pressure perhaps you should step away.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

treelover said:


> I posted much earleir in the thread about the contested nature of this 'attack', I don't think you often see hate grafitti like that, but the liberals have decided so it is.


Yeh you like your "I told you so" moments, they're so very rare


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2016)

BTw, i just wish we could have had this level of debate and actions when sick and disabled people were being physically attacked and some killed.

Oh, they still are being attacked, etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

treelover said:


> BTw, i just wish we could have had this level of debate and actions when sick and disabled people were being physically attacked and some killed.
> 
> Oh, they still are being attacked, etc.


What, you wanted someone to make out it's all a conspiracy?


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2016)

What on  earth are you on about, i am saying where was this concern when disabled people were being attacked, ridiculed, etc.


----------



## chilango (Jul 4, 2016)

treelover said:


> BTw, i just wish we could have had this level of debate and actions when sick and disabled people were being physically attacked and some killed.
> 
> Oh, they still are being attacked, etc.



I dunno.

Do you really want Urban to devote pages and pages on unpicking the authenticity of specific incidents when sick and disabled people were being physically attacked ?

Beyond that what is this "level of debate and actions"? I don't see much more than normal frankly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes. The effect is exactly the same as a fake spray can or similar tool. People claiming it was a paint pad does not add up. You would not get the sort of 3D effect, with such variation in line thickness, plus the uniform straightness over what looks like thick frames.



Have you ever used paint pads? My wife regularly uses them to write protest banners. You *do* get variation in thickness, just like with a brush. It's dependent on the pressure you apply.

It's always a shame to see people veer off into conspiracyland when there's a rational explanation.



> It is not two separate pictures. Just different copies of the same one.



It's two separate pictures. Do you actually use photoshop, given you touting it as an explanation? Try superimposing the pictures as different layers. You can't. They don't overlap because they're taken at different angles and heights.

Get a bloody grip!


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2016)

> I dunno.
> 
> Do you really want Urban to devote pages and pages on unpicking the authenticity of specific incidents when sick and disabled people were being physically attacked ?
> 
> Beyond that what is this "level of debate and actions"? I don't see much more than normal frankly.




I mean in wider 'progressive' society, imo, there is a hierarchy of oppression and disabled people are down the bottom of it, do you want to contest this?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

treelover said:


> What on  earth are you on about, i am saying where was this concern when disabled people were being attacked, ridiculed, etc.


So you'd prefer someone made out the evidence presented was fake as Anju has. That's the level of debate you want?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2016)

keybored said:


> You've excelled yourself this time.



Laugh? I nearly shat!
I have not laughed so much since Grandma died, or Auntie Mabel caught her left tit in the mangle!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

treelover said:


> I mean in wider society, imo, there is a hierarchy of oppression and disabled people are down the bottom of it, do you want to contest this?


Why do you want to piss on this thread?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It was washed off - there are pictures if it being washed off.
> 
> WTF is this?



Jazzz, _reductio ad absurdam_.


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2016)

@PM

Putting you on ignore, only one other Urbanite have done so, you just shoot the messenger all the time, even on issues which you agree with, its that anal tendency.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Jazzz, _reductio ad absurdam_.


Who knew Jazzz had kept a stay-behind login?


----------



## chilango (Jul 4, 2016)

treelover said:


> I mean in wider 'progressive' society, imo, there is a hierarchy of oppression and disabled people are down the bottom of it, do you want to contest this?



What is this "wider 'progressive' society"? How much difference do they make? would they make were they to abandon their alleged hierarchy? It's not something I encounter IRL. But then I work a lot in SEND so see just how much is done (and isn't done too) in that field.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

treelover said:


> @PM
> 
> Putting you on ignore you just shoot the messenger all the time, even on issues which you agree with, its that anal tendency.


Both the message and the messenger in your case leave so much to be desired


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> It is just two copies of the same picture.



Look at the reflections in the doors. They aren't the same at all (because the doors are being viewed from two different vantage points), so it is two different pictures. It does look odd you trying to claim otherwise.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

chilango said:


> What is this "wider 'progressive' society"? How much difference do they make? would they make were they to abandon their alleged hierarchy? It's not something I encounter IRL. But then I work a lot in SEND so see just how much is done (and isn't done too) in that field.


If you're lucky he'll chuck you on ignore


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2016)

chilango

Not children and education, I am talking about adults being physically attacked, don't recall marches for them, all the people who have committed suicide as a consequence of the benefit sanctions, bullying, support for these issues has been derisory, i don't like discussing these issues on an unconnected thread, but i am very angry about these failures, so are many sick and disabled people.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> OK, this is why I reacted to the picture. Maybe it is just not a great picture and the paint pad vandal is a master paint pad artist.  I could be wrong but I keep encountering people here who are claiming that the reporting of racist incidents is a conspiracy or attempt to make leave voters or the leave vote look bad and I admit this is probably making me rather angry and impairing my judgement.



If this turns out not to have been a racist incident (let alone a racist incident prompted by brexit), do you think the misreporting of it will have heightened tensions or calmed them, will it have placed more people at risk or reduced the threat?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## CRI (Jul 4, 2016)




----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2016)

What has this to with the referendum result? Or the two things the OP asks it be about? Foot was  very strongly anti-EU.


----------



## chilango (Jul 4, 2016)

treelover said:


> @Chilnago
> 
> Not children and education, I am talking about adults being physically attacked, don't recall marches for them, all the people who have committed suicide as a consequence of the benefit sacntions, bullying, support for these issues has been derisory, i don't like discussing these issues on an unconnecte thread, but i am very angry about these failures, so are many sick and disabled people.



This spike in attacks doesn't seem to be attracting much action in real life, frankly. 

At least nothing beyond what you would expect, and that's not enough. Where are the practical initiatives to combat this stuff on the ground? in the community? in the workplace? Y'know? AWAY FROM THE INTERNET. That's what matters. not how many fucking comments something gets on fucking CIF or whatever.

*I agree with you that what is happening to many sick and disabled people* - well, the poorer ones, 'cos class is boringly yet again the crux of all of this - *is appalling and deserving of far more anger and response than it is getting.* 

BUT, I don't think raging against a "hierarchy of oppression" amongst some "progressive society" (who are they? what actual difference do they make? could they make? blah blah blah) contributes anything concrete to the situation. 

Fuck some imaginary liberal left cavalry. *Do it yourself*.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What has this to with the referendum result? Or the two things the OP asks it be about? Foot was  very strongly anti-EU.


I doubt the knuckleheads could give a shit what he thought about anything!
Theres no way of knowing if its related or not - worth putting in the Not column for now - though the notion that the BNP and far right are emboldened would warrant it being mentioned


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2016)

ska invita said:


> I doubt the knuckleheads could give a shit what he thought about anything!
> Theres no way of knowing if its related or not - worth putting in the Not column for now - though the notion that the BNP and far right are emboldened would warrant it being mentioned


If every nasty thing is included then the thread has no value as reportage, as aggregation, as anything.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 4, 2016)

Anju said:


> It's very artistic use of a paint pad. Don't think i would have the skills to achieve the different thickness of lines.



Piece of piss if you are using a paint pen, maybe you can get jumbo ones of these. I was trying to find some imagery from Posh1 to show this, a Brum graf artist who uses paint pens but with his pen name it makes google search impossible


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What has this to with the referendum result? Or the two things the OP asks it be about? Foot was  very strongly anti-EU.



Quite:

… people say, ‘All these burdens, all these political disabilities, all these derogations from our sovereignty, all this dismemberment of our parliamentary institutions … all that must be done because of the economic circumstances that face us. We have no other choice.’ I do not believe it … I say to our great country, ‘Don’t be afraid of those who tell us that we cannot run our own affairs, that we have not the ingenuity to mobilise our resources and overcome our economic problems.’ Of course we have. We can do that and save the freedom of our country at the same time.
Foot M. Labour Special EEC Conference 1975​Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> If every nasty thing is included then the thread has no value as reportage, as aggregation, as anything.


agree.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2016)

Having two identically titled threads is extremely silly and confusing. 

*Merged.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2016)

Was the other thread Anju's? I think that was sufficiently different, but too late now!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 4, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Was the other thread Anju's? I think that was sufficiently different, but too late now!



What? The other new thread was started by OU.


----------



## CRI (Jul 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What has this to with the referendum result? Or the two things the OP asks it be about? Foot was  very strongly anti-EU.



Okay, I'd prefer the thread title to be, "People getting racially and otherly abused _in the wake of _the referendum result."  And yes, I'm aware that a memorial stone isn't a person, before you "helpfully" draw my attention to that one.

Complete coincidence the memorial was defaced I suppose.

Perhaps we can now have pages of discussion about whether it was a sharpie or a paint pen, the width of the nib, black or navy ink, maybe even whether the person was left or write handed, and of course whether it was all just photoshopped.  

Edit - right handed!


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2016)

CRI said:


> Okay, I'd prefer the thread title to be, "People getting racially and otherly abused _in the wake of _the referendum result."  And yes, I'm aware that a memorial stone isn't a person, before you "helpfully" draw my attention to that one.
> 
> Complete coincidence the memorial was defaced I suppose.
> 
> Perhaps we can now have pages of discussion about whether it was a sharpie or a paint pen, the width of the nib, black or navy ink, maybe even whether the person was left or write handed, and of course whether it was all just photoshopped.


But it's not what you would prefer. And why the "helpfully"?  If you put down everything to the wake of the referendum result you have just rendered all other comments, everything that recognises wider ongoing motivations, influences, situations and responses and so on not worth discussing. It's all referendum related.

It's nonsense. It's apolitical nonsense  - or worse, it suggests only a certain political view can explain what is happening and why - whilst seeking to shut down any wider explanations, debate or perspectives on what is happening and why. Od specific incidents or generally.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> What? The other new thread was started by OU.


Ah I missed that one. there was ANOTHER thread too


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Ah I missed that one. there was ANOTHER thread too


OU started another thread but without proper democratic accountability or advisory process. It had looked like getting back on track on here but some weirdo _civil _concerned debater took it down a conspiracy path. No wonder he was pissed off.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 4, 2016)

I was getting annoyed as the signal was being drowned out by the noise.


----------



## IC3D (Jul 4, 2016)

FB this morning a friend of a friend is punched on arm he questions wether it was racism then after 30 odd messages of support turns out he was cycling on the pavement and it was a jogger but expresses he's not sure what the motivation was. Well I suppose it could have been.
 The worse racism I've come across in London is from Poles so Brexit could be anti racist after all. 
I'm being flippant but from what I understand institutional racism is more problematic in London. I've heard racist sentiments from every corner of the planet here in public drowned out by the nature of the city and largely impotent


----------



## CRI (Jul 4, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> We don't need a new thread we simply have to wrestle the other one back on topic.


Don't think that's gonna happen.  There's way too many folks intent on keeping up the noise (that OU mentioned) trying to drown out discussion that's actually on topic.


----------



## Anju (Jul 4, 2016)

A friend shared this on Facebook. Again it is not a direct friend but a friend of a friend. Happened in Brighton. The guy got some photos of the people but not sure if I can post them here. I would like to as I know some of you are from Brighton so you man have seen them or can at least keep an eye out and report if you spot them.


Heard some voices outside to find 5 drunken men had broken into my garden. Confronted them and asked them to leave, they then turned on me. Called 999. One of them chased me down the street while shouting racial abuse. I genuinely feared I was going to have the living day lights beaten out if me. Thank you to BRIGHTON police who turned up speedily and arrested one. Got some good photo evidence - if you live in Brighton please share. What a bunch of low life scum!


----------



## CNT36 (Jul 4, 2016)

treelover said:


> chilango
> 
> Not children and education, I am talking about adults being physically attacked, don't recall marches for them, all the people who have committed suicide as a consequence of the benefit sanctions, bullying, support for these issues has been derisory, i don't like discussing these issues on an unconnected thread, but i am very angry about these failures, so are many sick and disabled people.


Did you start a thread?


----------



## IC3D (Jul 4, 2016)

There are some pretty committed fash types in Brighton the incident I referred to was there so probably got people concerned even it was unrelated


----------



## Uppity Oik (Jul 4, 2016)

Bloody Hell, what has happened to this thread?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2016)

Uppity Oik said:


> Bloody Hell, what has happened to this thread?


You're not going to be here long. Bye. ha ha


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

CNT36 said:


> Did you start a thread?


One day he will


----------



## teqniq (Jul 4, 2016)

Police write open letter vowing to keep public safe in wake of post-Brexit hate crimes


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Police write open letter vowing to keep public safe in wake of post-Brexit hate crimes


So police in 'we'll do our job' shocker


----------



## two sheds (Jul 4, 2016)

Well rather police in 'we write letter saying we'll do our job' shocker.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Well rather police in 'we write letter saying we'll do our job' shocker.


Police in 'we'll write letter saying we'll do our job to make it look like we're taking it seriously' shocker


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 4, 2016)

Just been talking to someone at home who was in London over the weekend. She reports that she found the atmosphere genuinely ominous.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 4, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Just been talking to someone at home who was in London over the weekend. She reports that she found the atmosphere genuinely ominous.


lots of middle class white liberals with rictus grins at any forrin lookin folk they meet


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Just been talking to someone at home who was in London over the weekend. She reports that she found the atmosphere genuinely ominous.


Tbh I haven't seen anything yet


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Just been talking to someone at home who was in London over the weekend. She reports that she found the atmosphere genuinely ominous.


Gramsci was just remarking how incredibly tolerant London  is?


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 4, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> lots of middle class white liberals with rictus grins at any forrin lookin folk they meet


More like " where's a safe pub we can drink in", in her case. 

This is someone who can remember Belfast in the 1970s, so I'd take her seriously.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 4, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Gramsci was just remarking how incredibly tolerant London  is?


The world don't move to the beat of just one drum.

What might be right for you may not be right for some.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 4, 2016)

T





Pickman's model said:


> Tbh I haven't seen anything yet


Thank you Mr. Jolson.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> More like " where's a safe pub we can drink in", in her case.
> 
> This is someone who can remember Belfast in the 1970s, so I'd take her seriously.


Whereabouts in London tho?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> T
> Thank you Mr. Jolson.


No, he's YOU ain't seen nothing yet, rather different


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 4, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Whereabouts in London tho?


East end was all she said.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 4, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> East end was all she said.


West Hamchester


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 4, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> No, he's YOU ain't seen nothing yet, rather different


It's like that, but different.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> East end was all she said.


Yeh well it's more like that now with the yuppies and the hipsters anyway before taking into a/c the referendum


----------



## KevStronach (Jul 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not 'shopped. It isn't spray-paint. It's been written with a foam paint pad.



I don't think it's a paint pad, I believe it is spray paint - using a rectangular nozzle or as they're known in graffiti circles a "calligraphy cap" - This is what they look like 

And this is what they write like


----------



## Uppity Oik (Jul 5, 2016)

Hardboard, like blotting paper for paint.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jul 5, 2016)

A woman I know from work had a middle aged woman shouting racist abuse in her face yesterday - stuff about "Britain is for British and you're going to get kicked out" and when she said she was British it was "no, Muslims out" and then used more abusive language - she reckons definitely referendum-related because of the wording.

Another woman I know wrote this after experiencing more than one racist incident last week.


----------



## treelover (Jul 5, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> Another woman I know wrote this after experiencing more than one racist incident last week.



Powerful stuff


----------



## Kesher (Jul 5, 2016)

There have been three race hate crimes every hour since EU referendum

Increase in race hate crimes


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 6, 2016)




----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2016)

My friend just got told to 'go home to her own country' on a bus today. I hope she reports it and the racist piece of dogshit gets what's coming.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 6, 2016)

Kesher said:


> There have been three race hate crimes every hour since EU referendum
> 
> Increase in race hate crimes


If that's the link I think it is it includes story of a polish guy beaten to an inch of his life after being approached in the street and asked what language he spoke.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 7, 2016)

Not too sure which thread this should be on but anyway...

325 Tory MPs failed to turn up for vote to guarantee for EU nationals living in UK


----------



## ska invita (Jul 7, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Not too sure which thread this should be on but anyway...
> 
> 325 Tory MPs failed to turn up for vote to guarantee for EU nationals living in UK


 Politics in a nutshell there  The courage of their convictions shining though


----------



## gosub (Jul 7, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Politics in a nutshell there  The courage of their convictions shining though


Whipped to abstain


----------



## Raheem (Jul 7, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


>




Wow. He's turning into less of a twat with each day that goes by.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 7, 2016)

Raheem said:


> Wow. He's turning into less of a twat with each day that goes by.


Don't agree with his politics, but I think Burnham is basically a decent bloke, not purely motivated by self-advancement.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 7, 2016)

So 2 MPs voted against this?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 7, 2016)

brogdale said:


> So 2 MPs voted against this?


Ulster Unionists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2016)

brogdale said:


> So 2 MPs voted against this?


there's always two who try and ruin it for everyone else


----------



## brogdale (Jul 7, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ulster Unionists.


Nice.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 7, 2016)

Some of the kids from our youth club (mostly Romanians) have been told by their schoolteachers that they'll be 'going home soon' 

Some of the kids are young enough that the UK is the only home they know. Can you imagine the kind of person who would fuck with a seven-year-old child's head like that? Now imagine that person teaches in a primary school. Sickening.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 7, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Some of the kids from our youth club (mostly Romanians) have been told by their schoolteachers that they'll be 'going home soon'
> 
> Some of the kids are young enough that the UK is the only home they know. Can you imagine the kind of person who would fuck with a seven-year-old child's head like that? Now imagine that person teaches in a primary school. Sickening.


Hard to imagine...literally.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 7, 2016)

With any luck, the head teacher can explain to these "teachers" that it's not part of their job to tell lies and upset the kids.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 7, 2016)

The schools round here have form for cunting off Polish and Romanian kids unfortunately. All the secondary schools are academies which basically means there's no gurarantee of a kid getting a place anywhere, because the schools can expel any kid they can't be bothered with (particularly kids with English as a second language who they fear may drag down the test results) and the local authority is powerless to do anything. Kids roaming the streets during school hours is such a common sight in this neighbourhood that I sometimes forget school is even a thing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 7, 2016)

Celyn said:


> With any luck, the head teacher can explain to these "teachers" that it's not part of their job to tell lies and upset the kids.


because they don't have a job any more...

If that's not gross misconduct, I'm not sure what is.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 7, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> The schools round here have form for cunting off Polish and Romanian kids unfortunately. All the secondary schools are academies which basically means there's no gurarantee of a kid getting a place anywhere, because the schools can expel any kid they can't be bothered with (particularly kids with English as a second language who they fear may drag down the test results) and the local authority is powerless to do anything. Kids roaming the streets during school hours is such a common sight in this neighbourhood that I sometimes forget school is even a thing.


Bloody hell, that's shocking. So schools can just refuse to take kids and then the kids don't get to go to school?  Then does school Attendance Office/Truant Person/Whateveriscalled go to the parents and say "why doesn't kid go to school?" and parents say "why doesn't school take kid?".  Wow.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 7, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Bloody hell, that's shocking. So schools can just refuse to take kids and then the kids don't get to go to school?  Then does school Attendance Office/Truant Person/Whateveriscalled go to the parents and say "why doesn't kid go to school?" and parents say "why doesn't school take kid?".  Wow.



The big school near me has a shiny new branded 'attendance officer' 4x4. An all terrain vehicle is vital in a terraced inner city area of course. But the attendance officer works for the school, and so is only interested in rounding up the kids who are on the school's books. There's no local authority attendance officer as far as I know, nor anyone whose job it is to make sure every kid has a school to go to.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 7, 2016)

That's all pretty worrying.    (I want a today's prize for understatement).


----------



## RubyToogood (Jul 7, 2016)

Celyn said:


> That's all pretty worrying.    (I want a today's prize for understatement).


Kids falling off school records altogether is a thing. It is true


----------



## Celyn (Jul 7, 2016)

But this seems to be sort of officially sanctioned letting kids fall off the records. That's really bad. Then the kids won't learn much, then what jobs will they get ... ? And so on.  Oh woe!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 7, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Some of the kids from our youth club (mostly Romanians) have been told by their schoolteachers that they'll be 'going home soon'
> 
> Some of the kids are young enough that the UK is the only home they know. Can you imagine the kind of person who would fuck with a seven-year-old child's head like that? Now imagine that person teaches in a primary school. Sickening.



Name and shame them. They don't deserve to be teachers.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 7, 2016)

Celyn said:


> But this seems to be sort of officially sanctioned letting kids fall off the records. That's really bad.



It's not 'officially sanctioned' anywhere but academisation does seem to allow this sort of thing to happen much more easily than it would have done in the days of LEA's. I doubt that's an accident.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 7, 2016)

Bit more than abuse


----------



## ska invita (Jul 7, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Bit more than abuse



when put alongside this

"In the latest incident to emerge, Avon and Somerset Police appealed for witnesses after a Polish man suffered ”significant injuries“ following a racially aggravated assault by two men on the day the referendum result was announced.

The victim, in his 30s, was walking along St Michael's Avenue in Yeovil, Somerset, at about 6pm on 24 June.Two men approached him and asked if he spoke English, before repeatedly punching and kicking him. The attack continued as he lay on the floor.

He required hospital treatment for a potentially life-changing eye injury, a fractured cheekbone and substantial bruising to his body. The incident was not reported to the force until 27 June."

Its a matter of time before someone dies I feel....

On which note I heard about the Farage quote "and if people feel that voting doesnt change anything then violence is the next step" (from here The far right are coming: Brexit has helped them along – video ) - he is making a threat, but its one I totally agree with him on. It now looks like the UK wont deport those EU citizens already here. I then predict that there will be very little change to the amount of people allowed to migrate to the UK (based on current laws). Ive said it before and Ill say it again, I really fear that this will activate a wave of extremist xenophobic violence amongst those who thought that voting leave allowed for expulsion and closing borders, and they will take a position along the lines of 'if the government wont do it, we'll do it ourselves'. There should be zero surprise about this.


----------



## Anju (Jul 7, 2016)

This is great advice for anyone who wants to be prepared to intervene if they see racist, or any other, abuse.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 7, 2016)

Probably good advice but I can't necessarily see it working in every instance.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 7, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Probably good advice but I can't necessarily see it working in every instance.


It's a pretty good opening gambit, though - gives the racist the opportunity to back off and save face without a confrontation. I'd be thoughtful about having my back to them or not being able to see them, though - just in case they are determined to have a confrontation - but my guess is that quite a high proportion of situations would be defused by this.


----------



## xenon (Jul 7, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Some of the kids from our youth club (mostly Romanians) have been told by their schoolteachers that they'll be 'going home soon'
> 
> Some of the kids are young enough that the UK is the only home they know. Can you imagine the kind of person who would fuck with a seven-year-old child's head like that? Now imagine that person teaches in a primary school. Sickening.


By their teachers? Fuksake.. Little surprised at that. Arsehole behaviour from anyone. But presume something a bit better


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 7, 2016)

Cycled past a kebab shop on Old Market (Bristol) today, the door and window had been smashed and someone had daubed ''Should of stayed in the EU'' (sic) on what was left. The owner (I guess) and one copper were standing outside looking dismayed.


----------



## Athos (Jul 7, 2016)

Anju said:


> This is great advice for anyone who wants to be prepared to intervene if they see racist, or any other, abuse.
> 
> View attachment 89301



I guess that's ok for anyone who doesn't feel they can smack the cunt in the face, which would still be my preferred course of action.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 7, 2016)

Having fights in public does not do a lot to help people who are abused feel better. Offering support and friendship in that sort of situation does, as well as being a statement that the attitude is not acceptable or shared by others (while still not giving the abuser an excuse to kick off further).


----------



## Athos (Jul 7, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Having fights in public does not do a lot to help people who are abused feel better. Offering support and friendship in that sort of situation does, as well as being a statement that the attitude is not acceptable or shared by others (while still not giving the abuser an excuse to kick off further).



Not as satisfying, though.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 7, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Having fights in public does not do a lot to help people who are abused feel better. Offering support and friendship in that sort of situation does, as well as being a statement that the attitude is not acceptable or shared by others (while still not giving the abuser an excuse to kick off further).


This is fair enough but if someone was actually being attacked rather than abused I would feel compelled to help them even though thankfully I've never been involved in any sort of fighting and subsequently lack any experience.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 7, 2016)

teqniq said:


> This is fair enough but if someone was actually being attacked rather than abused I would feel compelled to help them even though thankfully I've never been involved in any sort of fighting and subsequently lack any experience.


Well sure, if somebody is being physically attacked then it would be different, but that's much less common in public than abuse.


----------



## Uppity Oik (Jul 7, 2016)

I wish you were equally outraged when all those White Girls were getting raped and sexually abused by Racists up in the  North of England.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 7, 2016)




----------



## inva (Jul 7, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


>


quick work


----------



## teqniq (Jul 7, 2016)

Ninja quick work.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 7, 2016)

ska invita said:


> when put alongside this
> 
> "In the latest incident to emerge, Avon and Somerset Police appealed for witnesses after a Polish man suffered ”significant injuries“ following a racially aggravated assault by two men on the day the referendum result was announced.
> 
> ...




Sadly there are already several murders and manslaughters linked to racism every year.

I don't want to undermine this at all but I spend a lot of time looking at government statistics and how they are reported and I can't help urging some caution.  The rise in racist incidents is undeniable, what evidence there is shows that clearly and the anecdotal data is pretty over-whelming.  But it does seem largely to be verbal assault/alarm harassment/distress type offences.

According to the Home Office's Hate Crime statistics there were around 43,000 racially aggravated incidents reported to police in the year 2014/15, of which a third were violent and a third of those violence resulting in injury, so that's about 90 violent racist incidents a week that result in a complaint to police.  Of course most won't be as serious as the one you mention, but you would probably have expected a few that were in the last two weeks even without any referendum.  As I said I don't want to play down anything, I'm not suggesting there has been no rise, just that we don't really know yet whether the rise in racist incidents we can be pretty sure has taken place also represents a rise in the most serious offences.

Incidentally the British Crime Survey puts the total number of racially aggravated crimes at about 100,000 a year.  This is based on a survey of 50,000 people asking whether they have been victims of crime recently, it's as good a dataset as the unemployment statistics are based on.  That's 280 a day before the referendum took place, and it has risen consistently over the last five years (as have hate crimes based on religion, disability, sexuality and transgenderism).  This was already clearly a problem that wasn't receiving the attention it deserves.


----------



## xenon (Jul 7, 2016)

I remember the rotherham stuff barely raised a commemnt.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 7, 2016)

Train passengers stand up against racial abuse of Muslim woman



edit: date is from 2015


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 7, 2016)

> A Polish family home was set alight and a "hate-filled" letter pushed through their door in an apparent racial hate attack, police have said.
> 
> The blaze was started deliberately in a shed close to the Plymouth house before spreading to the home, shattering windows and causing substantial damage.
> 
> Shortly after the arson attack the home owners - who originate from Poland - discovered a hate-filled letter containing further threats.



Polish family sent 'hate-filled' letter before home set alight


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> This is great advice for anyone who wants to be prepared to intervene if they see racist, or any other, abuse.
> 
> View attachment 89301


Incidentally, I do have to observe that the racist assault I was involved in the aftermath of was 3 young men from an Arab state, which rather gives the lie to the assumption in that post. I think the general gist of it is still true, but if we set out to (mis-)characterise these racists as *all* cowards and bullies, I think we risk missing important details.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2016)

Athos said:


> Not as satisfying, though.


I can only speak for me, but I'd consider a confrontation avoided without the use of violence a much more satisfying outcome that twatting some (even deserving) cunt in the mush. I can go and join a karate club to do that.

Of course, sometimes the satisfaction comes from knowing you _could_ have twatted the cunt in the mush but chose another path  It all gets a bit Mister Miyagi after that...


----------



## coley (Jul 8, 2016)

Celyn said:


> With any luck, the head teacher can explain to these "teachers" that it's not part of their job to tell lies and upset the kids.


Or better still, what a P 45 is.


----------



## coley (Jul 8, 2016)

Athos said:


> Not as satisfying, though.


Very true, but being done for assaulting a racist twat! Which is a very real possibility?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 8, 2016)

tbh I've left situations in which I know the most satisfying outcome would have been me hitting them and them falling over. 

I haven't done it, but I have wished I had.


----------



## coley (Jul 8, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh I've left situations in which I know the most satisfying outcome would have been me hitting them and them falling over.
> 
> I haven't done it, but I have wished I had.


I have, not on a racism issue, but following a heated argument on a littering issue, came close to being charged with assault, the law is dodgy when it comes to verbal v physical


----------



## Diamond (Jul 8, 2016)

My flatmate is a manager at a fairly prominent London steak restaurant and came back from work absolutely fuming tonight.

He had been doing back office stuff and was heading back to the restaurant when he encountered one of his waitresses who was in floods of tears.

Apparently when she had gone over to one of the tables to collect the bill, the man who paid said to her something along the lines of:

"That's the trouble with all you Poles, absolutely no personality at all.  When are you going to go back?"


----------



## Athos (Jul 8, 2016)

coley said:


> Very true, but being done for assaulting a racist twat! Which is a very real possibility?


A preemptive strike in defence of another is likely to be lawful if there's an honestly held and reasonable belief that it's necessary.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 8, 2016)

> An Argentinian woman living in the UK was stunned when a guard at Canterbury Cathedral told her: “Dover’s that way, love.”
> 
> Mortified leaders at the cathedral have apologised to Silvina Fairbrass, 33, over the guard’s remark, which was made just days after the EU referendum .



Cathedral guard 'told foreign woman "Dover's that way" days after Brexit vote


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Polish family sent 'hate-filled' letter before home set alight



Polish family in Plymouth terrorised by racist arsonists


----------



## Anju (Jul 8, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Incidentally, I do have to observe that the racist assault I was involved in the aftermath of was 3 young men from an Arab state, which rather gives the lie to the assumption in that post. I think the general gist of it is still true, but if we set out to (mis-)characterise these racists as *all* cowards and bullies, I think we risk missing important details.



Yes, there are any number of possibilities and approaches to take.  Having an idea of what to do just helps you be more confident and intervene that bit quicker.


----------



## treelover (Jul 8, 2016)

Some really nasty stuff happening, but the reports keep getting repeated on here and elsewhere so its difficult to ascertain what is new.


----------



## J Ed (Jul 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Cathedral guard 'told foreign woman "Dover's that way" days after Brexit vote



There have been a few examples in the Spanish media of people saying that they are scared now to speak Spanish in public in Britain.


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2016)

A little roundup up of the stats on reported incidents in guardian today; 
Police report 42% rise in hate incidents in fortnight around EU referendum
It says "The most offences, some 289, were recorded on 25 June, the first full day after the result of the vote in favour of Brexit was announced." 
Also says that 'Police believe just one in four incidents are reported to them.'


----------



## NoBystander (Jul 8, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> This does seem likely considering the reference to an obscure conservative think tank. Doesn't really help the cause of anti-racism for newspapers to be manufacturing controversies where none exist. Especially since there are probably quite a few examples of actual racism occurring.



Looks like Pole on Pole but an attack on an obscure conservative think tank at this time might be connected to Brexit. If someone had daubed fuck you CCHQ on a Tory social club the media wouldnt be making the same assumptions. They wouldnt even be sure if it was an attack from a defeated Remainer or a taunt from a victorious Leaver. Some real reporting would have to happen.

The neoliberal wing of the Remain campaign did well to restrict criticism of Brexit to shouting RACIST!!1! There has been no serious debate about economic or social policy for decades and we may not get one now. No need for well meaning liberals to step outside their comfort zone or even change the record. Rich mans burden.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 8, 2016)

Shop owner describes arson attack at eastern European store in Magdalen Street, Norwich


----------



## krink (Jul 8, 2016)

Some of you already know I'm from Sunderland (or Brexit central as it is now known) and on Sunday a woman had her veil ripped off her face and abuse shouted at her here in the shopping centre in town. The woman ran off terrified but the bloke was confronted by other shoppers and some workers from a shop and eventually the twat was arrested. It's heartening to know that after my town was vilified for being big brexit supporters, we have shown that actually, no, we're not a bunch of racist knuckledraggers. The condemnation of this piece of shit has been widespread over the town and the only support he has had is from the local edl/nf/infidels group. The woman who was attacked has lived here 30 years and knowing her fellow makems were responsible for intervening and getting her attacker arrested might be at least a small comfort to her.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2016)

krink said:


> Some of you already know I'm from Sunderland (or Brexit central as it is now known) and on Sunday a woman had her veil ripped off her face and abuse shouted at her here in the shopping centre in town. The woman ran off terrified but the bloke was confronted by other shoppers and some workers from a shop and eventually the twat was arrested. It's heartening to know that after my town was vilified for being big brexit supporters, we have shown that actually, no, we're not a bunch of racist knuckledraggers. The condemnation of this piece of shit has been widespread over the town and the only support he has had is from the local edl/nf/infidels group. The woman who was attacked has lived here 30 years and knowing her fellow makems were responsible for intervening and getting her attacker arrested might be at least a small comfort to her.


Hopefully more than a small comfort. It feels almost ironic, but my sense is that overt public intolerance of this kind of behaviour carries much more weight than the behaviour itself. I'm very encouraged to see and hear stories of situations where people haven't just waited by for someone else to take action (or maybe they have!), but have stepped in instead, and to great effect. I hope it gathers momentum - it's probably our only hope to avoid a spiral down towards xenophobia and isolationism.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Jul 9, 2016)

Had my first experience of post-Brexit open racism on the street today.  3 kids (20ish?) wolf whistling a young woman for her heinous crime of being blonde and in gym clothes, she said something back which gave away she was Polish and they started saying crap like "Dover's that way" and "we voted slags like you to leave".

I pretended to know her (said something like "hiya, sorry I took so long, big queue in the chippy") and she got the hint, played along and we walked away together.  Dickheads weren't interested in carrying on or starting a fight with me (nor I them for that matter), it was all just a laugh to them.

I'm angry, really fucking angry.  How have we got to the point where their cheap laugh means more to them than this poor woman's entire sense of wellbeing and security in what is now her home country?  And how is it right that she or anyone else should need an escort from a white, English man just to walk across a fucking car park in a fucking shopping centre?

I've known it was happening, heard first and second hand accounts and seen the footage across mainstream and social media, but it doesn't half hit home when it's right there in front of you.  Fuck knows what it must feel like to be the subject of such mindless hatred.

I've always been quite passive about my politics and activism - well intentioned but uninvolved.  No more, i'm angry and I want in - what do I do? To paraphrase a bunch of cunts, I want my country back.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 9, 2016)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Had my first experience of post-Brexit open racism on the street today.  3 kids (20ish?) wolf whistling a young woman for her heinous crime of being blonde and in gym clothes, she said something back which gave away she was Polish and they started saying crap like "Dover's that way" and "we voted slags like you to leave".
> 
> I pretended to know her (said something like "hiya, sorry I took so long, big queue in the chippy") and she got the hint, played along and we walked away together.  Dickheads weren't interested in carrying on or starting a fight with me (nor I them for that matter), it was all just a laugh to them.
> 
> ...


out of interest zapp what was her reaction once you walked off, do you reckon?


----------



## Anju (Jul 9, 2016)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> How have we got to the point where their cheap laugh means more to them than this poor woman's entire sense of wellbeing and security in what is now her home country?  And how is it right that she or anyone else should need an escort from a white, English man just to walk across a fucking car park in a fucking shopping centre?
> 
> 
> I've always been quite passive about my politics and activism - well intentioned but uninvolved.  No more, i'm angry and I want in - what do I do? To paraphrase a bunch of cunts, I want my country back.



Yes, the casual thoughtless way people are doing this is worrying. Does it mean they don't understand the impact or are people seeing themselves as superior and therefore don't care. 

There are already things being organised. Currently a UK movement for Black Lives Matter, but hopefully any momentum gathered can be used to start addressing our own problems.

Great that you stepped in, assuming it was not Kif, and you just stepped in at the end.


----------



## Anju (Jul 9, 2016)

Not really on topic but if anyone is in London these are the rough details for Black Lives Matter things happening tomorrow onwards plus a couple of pics from today. Only a couple of hundred people but I think it was only organised today.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 9, 2016)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Had my first experience of post-Brexit open racism on the street today.  3 kids (20ish?) wolf whistling a young woman for her heinous crime of being blonde and in gym clothes, she said something back which gave away she was Polish and they started saying crap like "Dover's that way" and "we voted slags like you to leave".
> 
> I pretended to know her (said something like "hiya, sorry I took so long, big queue in the chippy") and she got the hint, played along and we walked away together.  Dickheads weren't interested in carrying on or starting a fight with me (nor I them for that matter), it was all just a laugh to them.
> 
> ...



Fair play to you, respect due.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Jul 9, 2016)

ska invita said:


> out of interest zapp what was her reaction once you walked off, do you reckon?



She was visibly shaken up by it, said it was the first time anything had been said directly at her.  What struck me was that she asked how many people were thinking anti-Polish or anti-foreigner thoughts even if they don't say them out loud - that's one lasting effect, she'll be much slower to trust any English stranger from this point forward.

I hope she'll take some comfort from knowing that some people are prepared to speak up, but it's a pretty shitty state of affairs when she or any other foreigner will be thinking of people in terms of which side they're on.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes, the casual thoughtless way people are doing this is worrying. Does it mean they don't understand the impact or are people seeing themselves as superior and therefore don't care.
> 
> There are already things being organised. Currently a UK movement for Black Lives Matter, but hopefully any momentum gathered can be used to start addressing our own problems.
> 
> Great that you stepped in, assuming it was not Kif, and you just stepped in at the end.


Tbh blm is addressing our own problems


----------



## existentialist (Jul 9, 2016)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> I've always been quite passive about my politics and activism - well intentioned but uninvolved.  No more, i'm angry and I want in - what do I do? To paraphrase a bunch of cunts, I want my country back.


Yeah, me too - on all counts.

As for what do you do? Personally, I think the answer is to be doing _exactly_ what you did - intervene, non-violently, and then make sure people know about it afterwards. That might fly in the face of our traditional British reticence (on both counts - "getting involved" and "talking about it"), but I think the poison of intolerance and hate thrives where people are reticent to say "enough". Those kids were probably not even aware of the harm they were doing, and it was all just a bit of a larf - all the more reason that such behaviour needs to be challenged there and then, on the spot.

Which you did. Nice one.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 9, 2016)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> I hope she'll take some comfort from knowing that some people are prepared to speak up, but it's a pretty shitty state of affairs when she or any other foreigner will be thinking of people in terms of which side they're on.



This is why I'm a bit worried about this idea of wearing a safety pin or whatever to say, 'I'm a nice person, I'm not going to tell you to fuck off home because of your accent or your skin colour'. Every time you see a safety pin you're going to think about why people feel they need to wear them, it's going to be a reminder that there are people who do pose a threat. I think this runs the risk of giving the bullies and thugs even more power in the minds of those they would abuse and intimidate.

Whether or not we've seen overt racist abuse in the last few weeks, we've all heard about it. The fact that it is being reported so widely is good in one sense, if it leads to awareness of the problem and real action to stop it, but media coverage will also amplify the psychological effect of these incidents. Not only will this give more people cause to be afraid but it could also put ideas in people's heads and help encourage more of this kind of abuse.

I completely understand the mindset behind the safety pin thing, the desire to make some kind of positive statement to counteract all this shitty behaviour. The problem I have with it is that whether the 'native' white English person is vowing to defend you or vowing to have you deported, in either case they are placing themselves above you in some way. People shouldn't have to feel that anyone is _allowing_ them to live in the place that's already their home. A person's sense of safety should not come from benevolent white people saying nice things but from actually, you know, being safe.

Make the racists wear a badge instead, if they're so fucking proud. A badge or some kind of ceremonial clothing, like an ambulance or a coffin.


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## Anju (Jul 9, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh blm is addressing our own problems



To an extent yes but our society is very different to the US.  The only comparable incidents that come to mind are the bit of wood in a carrier  bag shooting in Hakney years ago, the gun shaped lighter in, I think Brixton and Jean Charles de Menezes. There have been death in custody cases as well but overall, and with the aparemt impact of the Brexit vote I think we need a broader focus in any political or direct action combating racism / xenophobia.


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## existentialist (Jul 9, 2016)

Anju said:


> To an extent yes but our society is very different to the US.  The only comparable incidents that come to mind are the bit of wood in a carrier  bag shooting in Hakney years ago, the gun shaped lighter in, I think Brixton and Jean Charles de Menezes. There have been death in custody cases as well but overall, and with the aparemt impact of the Brexit vote I think we need a broader focus in any political or direct action combating racism / xenophobia.


I think the problem here is rather worse than you paint it there, although I accept that it's nowhere near on the scale it is in the US. It may be just that arms are not as prevalent here, but a lot of the structural racism and discrimination is still in evidence: just ask any young black male who likes to drive a nice car.


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## Anju (Jul 9, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I think the problem here is rather worse than you paint it there, although I accept that it's nowhere near on the scale it is in the US. It may be just that arms are not as prevalent here, but a lot of the structural racism and discrimination is still in evidence: just ask any young black male who likes to drive a nice car.



I am not saying the problem is any less serious, just different.  My brother in Law got rid of his nice car after being stopped many times. The last incident involved him being beaten and then charged with assaulting the police. When he picked his car up they had spat all over the interior. I have a friend who was stopped so many times after buying a convertible BMW that he sold it. I have even witnessed the police harass a black friend for not having his car. This was about 28 years ago and we were stood at a bus stop in Camden. He was well known to the police, through repeated traffic stops, a police car pulled up and one of the people inside said "where's your car you fat coon". 

I know  two people who have died because their medical conditions, heart defect, were not diagnosed. Both were black men and had suffered  blackouts. Neither took drugs but both were questioned about drug use and sent away without any further investigation.

I still think we need a different approach here that will address a broader range of issues.


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## existentialist (Jul 9, 2016)

Anju said:


> I still think we need a different approach here that will address a broader range of issues.


And I agree: but - as ever - the most important bit of any approach is whether or not it's getting applied at the grass roots level. Which is why people doing what Zapp Brannigan described earlier is so important. Sure, there's political and ideological change to do, too, but history tells us that such change usually trails public attitudes rather than leading them. So let's get the public attitudes stuff rolling - and, TBF, that probably does tend to fall to those who are not the usual targets of racists and twats, namely white people. Nice to have something to do about it apart from handwringing!


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## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2016)

Anju said:


> To an extent yes but our society is very different to the US.  The only comparable incidents that come to mind are the bit of wood in a carrier  bag shooting in Hakney years ago, the gun shaped lighter in, I think Brixton and Jean Charles de Menezes. There have been death in custody cases as well but overall, and with the aparemt impact of the Brexit vote I think we need a broader focus in any political or direct action combating racism / xenophobia.


Smiley Culture 
Diarmuid O'Neil
Harry Stanley
Mark Duggan

You seem to be ignorant of or to have forgotten the work done by London black revs round e.g. Mike Brown in Ferguson supportive of the US blm, United friends and family campaign and inquest round deaths in police custody in this country


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## Anju (Jul 9, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Smiley Culture
> Diarmuid O'Neil
> Harry Stanley
> Mark Duggan
> ...



Sorry, I was not aware it was a contest to list police atrocities. 

I was just mentioning incidents that came to mind and suggesting any action in the UK would need to be different from that in the US. We are very different places with a different set of issues affecting people on the street, though in terms of institutional racism we are much closer but probably have less layers of organisation to get through.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2016)

Anju said:


> Sorry, I was not aware it was a contest to list police atrocities.
> 
> I was just mentioning incidents that came to mind and suggesting any action in the UK would need to be different from that in the US. We are very different places with a different set of issues affecting people on the street, though in terms of institutional racism we are much closer but probably have less layers of organisation to get through.


Not a contest, simply listing a few of the more notable including ones you alluded to. Blm has had some resonance in the UK, and while we fortunately don't have so many police killings the basic issues are in many ways similar.


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## Anju (Jul 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Not a contest, simply listing a few of the more notable including ones you alluded to. Blm has had some resonance in the UK, and while we fortunately don't have so many police killings the basic issues are in many ways similar.



So sort of what I said only you think we are closer to the US than I do.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2016)

Anju said:


> So sort of what I said only you think we are closer to the US than I do.


No I think the basic issues are in many ways similar


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## Celyn (Jul 10, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> ...
> Make the racists wear a badge instead, if they're so fucking proud. A badge or some kind of ceremonial clothing, like an ambulance or a coffin.



But the racists don't wear badges. Things might be simpler it they did.

Oh hell, I just don't know what to do.


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## existentialist (Jul 10, 2016)

Celyn said:


> But the racists don't wear badges. Things might be simpler it they did.
> 
> Oh hell, I just don't know what to do.


We can use our safety pins to pin the racist's badge on.


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## teqniq (Jul 10, 2016)




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## Skyfallsz (Jul 10, 2016)

what about white people getting racially abused by the newspapers for voting leave

eh? eh?

look at me mother, am I not clever?


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 10, 2016)

Anju said:


> To an extent yes but our society is very different to the US.  The only comparable incidents that come to mind are the bit of wood in a carrier  bag shooting in Hakney years ago, the gun shaped lighter in, I think Brixton and Jean Charles de Menezes. There have been death in custody cases as well but overall, and with the aparemt impact of the Brexit vote I think we need a broader focus in any political or direct action combating racism / xenophobia.



We're not so different, except in degree. The US constitution (the Freedom of Speech provision) gives succour to racism in a way that ours doesn't (because it has no actual Freedom of Speech provision). In terms of structural and institutional racism, unemployment and criminalisation rates are both forever heading upward.

It's only the historic non-arming of the police that has meant we haven't seen a lot more murder-by-cop cases in the UK over the last 65 years, IMO. It's harder to beat someone to death, than to shoot them. I don't agree that a broader focus is needed. I'd say a narrower focus is required - one concentrated on structural and institutional racism and xenophobic attitudes. Remove that, and you also remove a lot of perpetuating factors, from "canteen culture" to misanthropy.


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## existentialist (Jul 10, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> what about white people getting racially abused by the newspapers for voting leave
> 
> eh? eh?
> 
> look at me mother, am I not clever?


Jolly good...


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## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> what about white people getting racially abused by the newspapers for voting leave
> 
> eh? eh?
> 
> look at me mother, am I not clever?


If you have to ask for validation you already know the answer


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 10, 2016)

> *Barac Zita*
> 2 hrs ·
> Horrified that having just left the canvassing teams for Anamul Islam at Labour West Ham offices to go to Trafalgar Square & speak at a rally Uniting against Hate some of our team have been subjected to racial abuse & attacked with bottles & rushed to hospital. Glad the fascists responsible were caught.


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## CRI (Jul 10, 2016)

Anju said:


> This is great advice for anyone who wants to be prepared to intervene if they see racist, or any other, abuse.
> 
> View attachment 89301


----------



## CRI (Jul 10, 2016)

Ovewhelming urge to kick his skinny, smelly white ass into next Thursday for this stunt.  I've seen it posted all over the shop credited to Paul O'Connor from Swansea.  Earned him a shedload of "Lookie Lookie, I'm a great white ally" cookies, passing off a young woman of colour's experience and ideas as his own.  Special place in Hell for bastards like that I hope.


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## Anju (Jul 10, 2016)

CRI said:


>



Structural racism is systematic denial of access to education, healthcare, employment and other rights based on their race.  The above is a Facebook post that has gone viral and it seems the guy that posted it has more friends, possibly more keen to share the post than the original author has.


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## CRI (Jul 10, 2016)

Anju said:


> Structural racism is systematic denial of access to education, healthcare, employment and other rights based on their race.  The above is a Facebook post that has gone viral and it seems the guy that posted it has more friends, possibly more keen to share the post than the original author has.



He COULD have shared her post, at least attributing the experience and idea to her.  He could have contacted her, said he liked it, asked if he could share it with his mahoosive following and that he would give her credit.  It's not like that's a hard thing to do.  From the discussion on her timeline, she DID want the post to be shared more widely.  She's not happy that some white guy snatched her words verbatim, passed them off as his own and hasn't even apologised.  

To be fair, when I read it, it was hard to match the picture of the guy in the icon with the story of talking to the young Qatari woman.  Just seemed a bit creepy.  Now it makes sense why.

He knew what he was doing.  He was happy to shit on a young brown woman's head for ally cookies, for a bloated ego, maybe a few journo gigs, I dunno.  If he genuinely gives a shit about racism, he wouldn't have pulled this stunt.


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## Anju (Jul 10, 2016)

CRI said:


> He COULD have shared her post, at least attributing the experience and idea to her.  He could have contacted her, said he liked it, asked if he could share it with his mahoosive following and that he would give her credit.  It's not like that's a hard thing to do.  From the discussion on her timeline, she DID want the post to be shared more widely.  She's not happy that some white guy snatched her words verbatim, passed them off as his own and hasn't even apologised.
> 
> To be fair, when I read it, it was hard to match the picture of the guy in the icon with the story of talking to the young Qatari woman.  Just seemed a bit creepy.  Now it makes sense why.
> 
> He knew what he was doing.  He was happy to shit on a young brown woman's head for ally cookies, for a bloated ego, maybe a few journo gigs, I dunno.  If he genuinely gives a shit about racism, he wouldn't have pulled this stunt.



Maybe he copied it from a forum and passed it on in good faith because he thought it was sound advice.  If he had the intention of passing it off as his own words surely he would have just re written it, which would have been easy.  

I have no idea what ally cookies are. I just asked a couple of friends and neither do they, so I suppose it is possible he does not either.  The original author seems very upset about not getting credit and makes some very unpleasant assumptions about someone who could equally have just been well intentioned. She has done a bit on an Anju. 

Most people do not see Facebook posts as a route to fame and / or fortune, either cash or cookies. They are just passing things to friends. I got his post via Facebook, shared by a friend from an anti racist page. Not really his fault it went viral.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 10, 2016)

dunno really - I don't do farcebook.

and not entirely sure i can read all that much in to anyone's motives.  it could be chance that the second posting was seen by someone who was able to give it more publicity.

but if i see something elsewhere i like and re-post it (for example) on urban, I would be inclined to post something like

"I saw this on [wherever]" and post a link, not just copy-paste it to look as if it was my original thought...


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## CRI (Jul 10, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> dunno really - I don't do farcebook.
> 
> and not entirely sure i can read all that much in to anyone's motives.  it could be chance that the second posting was seen by someone who was able to give it more publicity.
> 
> ...


This ^  Common courtesy, surely.  

From what I can see, he's got hundreds of followers, big in anti-fracking, anti-trident, that sort of stuff.  He knows how social media works.  He's not just your uncle from Swansea who forwards football memes and selfies from the pub once in a while. 

If he found it on an anonymous message board and his main motive was to share a good idea for tackling racism, why not say you just found it.  Why claim it as your own - adding a couple lines at the top to "customise" it even?  Now he's been caught out, why hasn't he put something on his page saying sorry at least?  Methinks he likes the kudos of taking credit for this idea that's become super popular - with bonus story painting him as a white knight saving a damsel in distress  (Can you say "white saviour?")

White folks:  Nicking stuff from black, brown, yellow and red folks and taking credit for it for, well, forever.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 11, 2016)

Dangerous game to play this 'ally' lark.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 11, 2016)

can I quote you on that?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 11, 2016)

I detest the concept of an 'ally'. It implies that we're in different groups due in this instance to race.  Shit consequences of identity politics.


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## Combustible (Jul 11, 2016)

CRI said:


> If he found it on an anonymous message board and his main motive was to share a good idea for tackling racism, why not say you just found it.  Why claim it as your own - adding a couple lines at the top to "customise" it even?



I'm not sure he is claiming it as his own is he? Unless you're particularly egotistical, you probably wouldn't call something you've written "good advice".

But yeah he should have made it more clear it wasn't from him and attributed it to her if he knew where it was from.


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 11, 2016)

Sharing someone else's post on fb is much easier/less effort than to C&P and attribute their post/words as your own. He did that deliberately.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2016)

CRI said:


> This ^  Common courtesy, surely.
> 
> From what I can see, he's got hundreds of followers, big in anti-fracking, anti-trident, that sort of stuff.  He knows how social media works.  He's not just your uncle from Swansea who forwards football memes and selfies from the pub once in a while.
> 
> ...


You think he did this because he's white and because the original poster isn't  then?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 11, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I detest the concept of an 'ally'. It implies that we're in different groups due in this instance to race.  Shit consequences of identity politics.



And notice how an ally is by definition a fleeting and temporary thing. Alliances forged and broken to suit whatever activist campaign happens to be in fashion.

Fuck that! That's not anti-racism. Its taking a load of divisive and reactionary instincts and dressing them up as progressive.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 11, 2016)

CRI said:


> This ^  Common courtesy, surely.
> 
> From what I can see, he's got hundreds of followers, big in anti-fracking, anti-trident, that sort of stuff.  He knows how social media works.  He's not just your uncle from Swansea who forwards football memes and selfies from the pub once in a while.
> 
> ...


The word you seek is plagiarism, presenting others' ideas as your own.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 11, 2016)

CRI said:


> He COULD have shared her post, at least attributing the experience and idea to her.  He could have contacted her, said he liked it, asked if he could share it with his mahoosive following and that he would give her credit.  It's not like that's a hard thing to do.  From the discussion on her timeline, she DID want the post to be shared more widely.  She's not happy that some white guy snatched her words verbatim, passed them off as his own and hasn't even apologised.
> 
> To be fair, when I read it, it was hard to match the picture of the guy in the icon with the story of talking to the young Qatari woman.  Just seemed a bit creepy.  Now it makes sense why.
> 
> He knew what he was doing.  He was happy to shit on a young brown woman's head for ally cookies, for a bloated ego, maybe a few journo gigs, I dunno.  If he genuinely gives a shit about racism, he wouldn't have pulled this stunt.




When questioned his response was:



> Paul O'Connor A grammatical error (ie lack of quotation marks) is the issue. I thought it was obvious I was quoting someone else but I can see how the problem arose.
> 
> If the poke had contacted me first this wouldn't have become such an enflamed issue. Uditi has been credited now both in the Poke and my posting.
> 
> 5 · 9 July at 08:02


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 11, 2016)

Bollocks. Maybe if you'd never used social media before that would sound convincing.


----------



## CRI (Jul 11, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I detest the concept of an 'ally'. It implies that we're in different groups due in this instance to race.  Shit consequences of identity politics.



Don't really care about the semantics, but do think folk who have more status/privilege/connections/power/etc. should stick up for those with less.  Like it or not, one of the big factors in the "who has more and who has less" stakes is race.



Rutita1 said:


> Sharing someone else's post on fb is much easier/less effort than to C&P and attribute their post/words as your own. He did that deliberately.



Absolutely.  Flatly don't accept this was just an oversight or "rookie mistake".  He knew what he was doing, maybe didn't think he'd get caught out. 



butchersapron said:


> You think he did this because he's white and because the original poster isn't  then?



I don't think he deliberately looked for interesting content from BAME folks to steal.  Probably would have nicked it regardless of the author, especially if he thought they were such small fish they'd never find out.  I suspect he thought he was doing a good thing to "fight racism," by using his big platform to make the hot idea go viral instead of hidden away on some obscure Facebook profile.  

Sure, but why not use your influence to signal-boost the Indian woman who wrote the piece?  Why erase her experience and try passing it off as your own.  If he really gave two shits about racism, he'd realise his action actually CONTRIBUTES to institutional racism.  His response since being caught out pretty well shows he doesn't give even one shit. 



ItWillNeverWork said:


> And notice how an ally is by definition a fleeting and temporary thing. Alliances forged and broken to suit whatever activist campaign happens to be in fashion.
> 
> Fuck that! That's not anti-racism. Its taking a load of divisive and reactionary instincts and dressing them up as progressive.



Oh yes, it's those silly Black folks being divisive and reactionary again.  We should all be in this together, right?  #AllLivesMatter 



Pickman's model said:


> The word you seek is plagiarism, presenting others' ideas as your own.



Absolutely, but I think online content, especially on social media, makes getting redress for plagiarism and even copyright infringement nigh on impossible.  



Rutita1 said:


> When questioned his response was:



Yes, feeble response. The original author said on her page that when she challenged, he said something like it was "ok" that he took credit because he's willing to take the flak for getting found out.    But, a bit like the salacious tabloid headline with the 1 inch retraction on page 30 a week later, it's his version that will keep being circulated and his white saviour back that will keep being patted.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 11, 2016)

CRI said:


> Oh yes, it's those silly Black folks being divisive and reactionary again.  We should all be in this together, right?  #AllLivesMatter



Yeah because all black people go around talking about 'allies', don't they? Never white middle class sociology students with childish politics. I think you need to get off FaceBook and speak to some normal people.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 11, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I detest the concept of an 'ally'. It implies that we're in different groups due in this instance to race.  Shit consequences of identity politics.


We are all in a load of different groups due to a range of er differences eg public sector, private sector, full time, part time, union members, not in a union: not to mention men, women, black, white, asian etc. These differences not wholly insuperable tho.


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## purenarcotic (Jul 11, 2016)

C4 Dispatches on racism in Britain now


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 11, 2016)

purenarcotic said:


> C4 Dispatches on racism in Britain now


Dispatches - On Demand - All 4


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## ska invita (Jul 11, 2016)

Is it worth watching?

Btw I think what's happening because of exit is more aggressive nationalism/xenophobia than racism,though of course theres plenty racism out there too... And they over lap almost exactly


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 11, 2016)

It dips in and out,  Pre/post of Brexit... worth a watch but not a definitive post Brexit analysis of the situation.


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## campanula (Jul 11, 2016)

My daughter-in-law and her mum have both been on the end of nasty comments this past couple of weeks (they are Malaysian). Snickering, teens chanting Ting Tong Chop Suey and such...my d-i-l is quite unequivocal that it is a direct response to Brexit...but she is uncertain what aspects of Brexit has triggered this. She also is infinitely more tolerant of it than I would be (although she is a nursery nurse so I guess patience and empathy comes with the territory). It is as though these youngsters have been given permission to add casual racism to their repertoire of teenage belligerence.


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## The39thStep (Jul 11, 2016)

Reading this thread caused me to worry a bit. Have had a Portuguese neighbour over here since Wednesday , speaks very little English and has walked around in Portugal shirt, scarf and carrying a flag .everyone loves him .


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## The39thStep (Jul 11, 2016)

How EU countries feel about refugee crisis 

@GoodwinMJ: As if the EU doesn't have enough to worry about... new data on public attitudes to the #RefugeeCrisis Matthew Goodwin on Twitter


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## Gramsci (Jul 11, 2016)

I was on the bus to Brixton last weekend. The couple behind me were talking of a friend (outside London ) who had been punched in the face by a couple of youths. They heard him speaking with an accent. They told him to go back to where he came from. This was just after Brexit vote. They were shocked as he had been living in UK for 15 years and never had anything like this before. Reported to Police who were looking at CCTV to identify those who did it.


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## The39thStep (Jul 11, 2016)

I thought London was more tolerant because it voted remain ?


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## ska invita (Jul 11, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I thought London was more tolerant because it voted remain ?


London didn't vote remain. A percentage of people did. A few less voted exit. Many didn't vote at all.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jul 11, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I thought London was more tolerant because it voted remain ?


Possibly rather the opposite - many voted remain at least partly because they feared this would happen.


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## The39thStep (Jul 11, 2016)

ska invita said:


> London didn't vote remain. A percentage of people did. A few less voted exit. Many didn't vote at all.


But it is more tolerant ?


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## The39thStep (Jul 11, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Possibly rather the opposite - many voted remain at least partly because they feared this would happen.


What evidence have you got for this latest theory?


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## ska invita (Jul 11, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> But it is more tolerant ?


You can't talk about London as if its a person. Its got 8 milllion people living in it


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## The39thStep (Jul 11, 2016)

ska invita said:


> You can't talk about London as if its a person. Its got 8 milllion people living in it


I was alluding to another posters theory of tolerance . Tbf it was the inmate tolerance by inner Londoners


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## littlebabyjesus (Jul 11, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> What evidence have you got for this latest theory?



You're looking for significance in London's very heavy remain vote. I'm giving you an idea - because the fact that a brexit vote might encourage racists was more of a factor in the vote than elsewhere. As evidence, working class black people voting remain in their majority. It's not out love for Europe or feeling particularly European.


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## The39thStep (Jul 11, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You're looking for significance in London's very heavy remain vote. I'm giving you an idea - because the fact that a brexit vote might encourage racists was more of a factor in the vote than elsewhere. As evidence, working class black people voting remain in their majority. It's not out love for Europe or feeling particularly European.


Yes an idea. Where is your evidence that black working class people voted remain as a leave vote would encourage racists


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## ska invita (Jul 12, 2016)

Is there a point to all this? looks a lot like trolling a serious thread


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## littlebabyjesus (Jul 12, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Yes an idea. Where is your evidence that black working class people voted remain as a leave vote would encourage racists


My only other evidence is anecdotal, I'm afraid, from living in a bit of London that voted very heavily remain. The fears that this would happen existed before the vote.


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## smokedout (Jul 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Possibly rather the opposite - many voted remain at least partly because they feared this would happen.



Police seem to be suggesting the spike happened in the week before and the week after the vote, suggesting the referendum itself, rather than the result, might have been the main factor


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## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> My only other evidence is anecdotal, I'm afraid, from living in a bit of London that voted very heavily remain. The fears that this would happen existed before the vote.


yeh cos sudden spikes in racism have never been known before. it's like evil may day never happened.


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## ska invita (Jul 12, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Police seem to be suggesting the spike happened in the week before and the week after the vote, suggesting the referendum itself, rather than the result, might have been the main factor


Of course the whole campaign was a factor...years of migrant blaming are a factor and it came to a head with a consciously xenophobic campaign.

But the result is also clearly a factor...you cant feel all empowered and tell people to pack their bags cos they're getting kicked out unless leave won.


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## belboid (Jul 12, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Police seem to be suggesting the spike happened in the week before and the week after the vote, suggesting the referendum itself, rather than the result, might have been the main factor


they're not suggesting that, that is simply when the figures were collected.

That anyone is trying to deny that there has been a definite jump in (relatively mild) racist attacks post-referndum, seems just bizarre.


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 12, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Police seem to be suggesting the spike happened in the week before and the week after the vote, suggesting the referendum itself, rather than the result, might have been the main factor



Why are trying to split hairs? The 'referendum' isn't some arbitrary thing that happened completely independently from the rhetoric surrounding it and the result.


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## teqniq (Jul 12, 2016)

Racism and xenophobia are resurgent in the UK, and the centre-left is partly to blame


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## smokedout (Jul 12, 2016)

belboid said:


> they're not suggesting that, that is simply when the figures were collected.
> 
> That anyone is trying to deny that there has been a definite jump in (relatively mild) racist attacks post-referndum, seems just bizarre.



Who's denying anything, that's what the figures say.  You're right that they don't break the result down week by week - I can see two possible reasons for that, the first being that there is little difference between the week's totals, or the second that they are deliberately playing down post-Brexit effects.

The crime survey results will give a more accurate picture. not out until next May though


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## smokedout (Jul 12, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Why are trying to split hairs? The 'referendum' isn't some arbitrary thing that happened completely independently from the rhetoric surrounding it and the result.



Title of the thread?


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## belboid (Jul 12, 2016)

smokedout said:


> You're right that they don't break the result down week by week - I can see two possible reasons for that, the first being that there is little difference between the week's totals, or the second that they are deliberately playing down post-Brexit effects.


Or simply because that isn't how the figure are collected. No need to read any conspiracies into it.


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## smokedout (Jul 12, 2016)

Figures are collected monthly and published annually as far as I'm aware.  This was a special request from the NPCC in response to the rise in reports from the True Vision website.  As I said it's unclear why they haven't broken it down into weekly totals, or have used the period both before and after the vote, but they know the weekly totals because they quote a daily figure: 





> At the peak in offending on the June 25 2016, 289 offences occurred across the UK. Reassuringly, since this point there has been a marked decrease in reports but weekly returns will continue to be collated to monitor the situation until further reductions are seen.



Hate crime undermines the diversity and tolerance we should instead be celebrating.


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## gosub (Jul 12, 2016)

Statement on the status of EU nationals in the UK - News stories - GOV.UK


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## crossthebreeze (Jul 12, 2016)

gosub said:


> Statement on the status of EU nationals in the UK - News stories - GOV.UK


They've taken their time to release that


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## gosub (Jul 12, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> They've taken their time to release that



Was the first thing to come out of the Home Office when May 'won'.  And at least its out.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 12, 2016)

'Vile' and 'hateful' protest leads to eviction of asylum seekers in Sidcup


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 12, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> 'Vile' and 'hateful' protest leads to eviction of asylum seekers in Sidcup



This story fucking disgusting and deserves its own thread. Preferably one where it isn't being used to tar leave voters with this sort of stuff. I voted leave and if I ever saw a protest like this I'd probably get vocal (and maybe even punchy) with the cunts involved in it. Stop making everything bigoted in this world an issue linked to brexit.


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## krtek a houby (Jul 12, 2016)

Council organises Unity Day march & rally against racism


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## CRI (Jul 12, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> 'Vile' and 'hateful' protest leads to eviction of asylum seekers in Sidcup


That made me feel sick.


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## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Is there a point to all this? looks a lot like trolling a serious thread


Who is this question to?


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## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2016)

belboid said:


> they're not suggesting that, that is simply when the figures were collected.
> 
> That anyone is trying to deny that there has been a definite jump in (relatively mild) racist attacks post-referndum, seems just bizarre.


Completely agree , a jump in relatively mild racist incidents but not the Dawn of the fourth reich.


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 13, 2016)

Mildly racist?


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 13, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Completely agree , a jump in relatively mild racist incidents but not the Dawn of the fourth reich.



It's not the "mildness" of the incidents that matters (and "mildness" is a disputable term), it's the fact of raised prevalence and frequency.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Completely agree , a jump in relatively mild racist incidents but not the Dawn of the fourth reich.


i would have thought a more felicitous turn of phrase might be 'less severe' instead of milder, which i suppose it is compared to being e.g. burned alive in rostock or stabbed to death in a park, but the effect it may have on the recipient of these malign attentions may be very severe and unlikely to be mild.


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## krtek a houby (Jul 13, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Mildly racist?



Indeed. Wtf is that?

Racism is racism.


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## existentialist (Jul 13, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not the "mildness" of the incidents that matters (and "mildness" is a disputable term), it's the fact of raised prevalence and frequency.


Not to mention the prevailing narrative which, to those on the receiving end of even "mild' racism, can only make their fear and anxiety worse.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 13, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Not to mention the prevailing narrative which, to those on the receiving end of even "mild' racism, can only make their fear and anxiety worse.



Quite, and name-calling can be extremely upsetting and worrying if you've hardly experienced it in your area before.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quite, and name-calling can be extremely upsetting and worrying if you've hardly experienced it in your area before.


especially as it is likely to be accompanied by physical aggression which might not end in actual attack but can be just as distressing


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## CRI (Jul 13, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Completely agree , a jump in relatively mild racist incidents but not the Dawn of the fourth reich.


Minimise. Deny. Blame.
Rinse. Repeat.


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## existentialist (Jul 13, 2016)

CRI said:


> Minimise. Deny. Blame.
> Rinse. Repeat.


Because, when you look at the dawn of the third Reich, it started with "relatively mild racist incidents" which quickly enough became normalised so that by the time Kristallnacht happened, most didn't really think that smashing up synagogues and Jewish businesses was that out of order. 

The post-referendum jump in attacks and incidents is exactly the kind of thing that should be making anyone who cares about violence and racism concerned.


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## gosub (Jul 13, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Because, when you look at the dawn of the third Reich, it started with "relatively mild racist incidents" which quickly enough became normalised so that by the time Kristallnacht happened, most didn't really think that smashing up synagogues and Jewish businesses was that out of order.
> 
> The post-referendum jump in attacks and incidents is exactly the kind of thing that should be making anyone who cares about violence and racism concerned.


If I'm honest I was more concerned about a month ago when people were trying to normalise the idea of political assassination


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## existentialist (Jul 13, 2016)

gosub said:


> If I'm honest I was more concerned about a month ago when people were trying to normalise the idea of political assassination


I am increasingly keen on this idea


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## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i would have thought a more felicitous turn of phrase might be 'less severe' instead of milder, which i suppose it is compared to being e.g. burned alive in rostock or stabbed to death in a park, but the effect it may have on the recipient of these malign attentions may be very severe and unlikely to be mild.


I was quoting Belboid . Any incident is an unwarranted and unpleasant experience .


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## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Because, when you look at the dawn of the third Reich, it started with "relatively mild racist incidents" which quickly enough became normalised so that by the time Kristallnacht happened, most didn't really think that smashing up synagogues and Jewish businesses was that out of order.
> 
> The post-referendum jump in attacks and incidents is exactly the kind of thing that should be making anyone who cares about violence and racism concerned.


Get a grip.


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## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2016)

CRI said:


> Minimise. Deny. Blame.
> Rinse. Repeat.


Blame who?


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## redsquirrel (Jul 14, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Because, when you look at the dawn of the third Reich, it started with "relatively mild racist incidents"


No it didn't, the anti-semitism of the Nazi's had far longer and deeper roots. There was the whole background of decades of racial/national ideologies that built on the already existing prejudices.

These incidents are awful but to make nonsense comparisons like yours are not helpful, it's like all the idiots claiming UKIP are fascists. Wrong, stupid and unhelpful.


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## coley (Jul 14, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> 'Vile' and 'hateful' protest leads to eviction of asylum seekers in Sidcup



she told News Shopper.
Obviously a tabloid that has the pulse of the nation in its grip.
Joking apart, totally shameful and disgusting.


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## existentialist (Jul 14, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> No it didn't, the anti-semitism of the Nazi's had far longer and deeper roots. There was the whole background of decades of racial/national ideologies that built on the already existing prejudices.
> 
> These incidents are awful but to make nonsense comparisons like yours are not helpful, it's like all the idiots claiming UKIP are fascists. Wrong, stupid and unhelpful.


I think that the rise of antisemitism in Nazi Germany has lots of relevant lessons to teach us without necessarily having to be all "O noes, Nazis". Violence and discrimination needs certain conditions to prevail in order to flourish, like dehumanisation of the targets, a general normalisation of the notion of violence against them, blame/scapegoating, and so on. Nazi Germany is a stark historical example of those things happening; using it as an example does not mean I'm suggesting that jackboots and black shirts are just around the corner. 

Although they could be, in time, if we choose to ignore the lessons of history: this is as close to morally justified racism as I have seen in my life - even in the 70s and 80s,there was an awareness among racists that their opinions were not mainstream, but I have a sense now that a lot of the racism is being done, at least in the minds of those doing it, on behalf of us all.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I was quoting Belboid . Any incident is an unwarranted and unpleasant experience .


No need for you to use his terms


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 14, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> There was the whole background of decades of racial/national ideologies that built on the already existing prejudices.


 You say this as if the bigotry and racism people are experiencing a spike in is something that just 'happened' because of the rhetoric of the referendum. That's not true. I think you know that also.


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 14, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Blame who?



The people _you_ seem to be blaming. The fact that you quantify racism in terms of severity is akin to saying people should 'grow a thicker skin' and just get over or ignore some of it.


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## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> The people _you_ seem to be blaming. The fact that you quantify racism in terms of severity is akin to saying people should 'grow a thicker skin' and just get over or ignore some of it.


Utter tosh. Let's put some context into this , despite what some posters in Planet Urban say the level and type of incidents being reported are not akin to the rise of Hitler in Germany .


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## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> No need for you to use his terms


I think the sentiment of what he was saying was perfectly clear


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## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I think that the rise of antisemitism in Nazi Germany has lots of relevant lessons to teach us without necessarily having to be all "O noes, Nazis". Violence and discrimination needs certain conditions to prevail in order to flourish, like dehumanisation of the targets, a general normalisation of the notion of violence against them, blame/scapegoating, and so on. Nazi Germany is a stark historical example of those things happening; using it as an example does not mean I'm suggesting that jackboots and black shirts are just around the corner.
> 
> Although they could be, in time, if we choose to ignore the lessons of history: this is as close to morally justified racism as I have seen in my life - even in the 70s and 80s,there was an awareness among racists that their opinions were not mainstream, but I have a sense now that a lot of the racism is being done, at least in the minds of those doing it, on behalf of us all.


If you had been around in the 70s you would have found that the racists actually thought that they did think their views were mainstream and spoke for the majority.


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## sim667 (Jul 14, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Get a grip.



I'm not sure what issue you take with the comment, history shows that this is exactly how extreme xenophobia starts.


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## redsquirrel (Jul 14, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You say this as if the bigotry and racism people are experiencing a spike in is something that just 'happened' because of the rhetoric of the referendum. That's not true. I think you know that also.


Of course not, but there hasn't been the decades of racial theorising that formed the backdrop to Nazi's, there aren't large numbers of eugenics supporters for example, there isn't the (bar a very few hard right scum) link between "blood and soil" that there was in Germany at the beginning of the 20th century. To pretend that the current situation in Britain is anything link 30s Germany is just unhelpful twaddle.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> If you had been around in the 70s you would have found that the racists actually thought that they did think their views were mainstream and spoke for the majority.



I was, and they didn't. They still knew that their shit wasn't shared by the majority, even if "Nationwide" did show "dockers for Enoch" marching, and the OB (as ever) policed NF marches in a biased manner. It's why Webster couldn't drink in any local pubs within about a two mile radius of his home, *except* The Pine Tavern by Clapham Junction station. It's why the NF had to sneak onto most estates in London in the middle of the night to post up their propaganda, and why most of it lasted less than 24 hours. I can think of about 3 areas that were serious redoubts of racist nationalism in the SE around the '70s and '80s: Eltham, the area around Swanley, and Dover. Everywhere else, it was a minority of spuds making a lot of noise.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 14, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> The people _you_ seem to be blaming. *The fact that you quantify racism in terms of severity is akin to saying people should 'grow a thicker skin' and just get over or ignore some of it.*



This isn't true though is it? It is accurate to say that racism was more prevalent and more openly expressed in the 1970s than it is now; just look at popular cultural representations in news papers and on the television. Or if you prefer go to a source like the Mass Observation Archive and look at the depth, virulence and common sense of antisemitism prior to the second world war. It is not asking anyone to get over anything to acknowledge this history.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Of course not, but there hasn't been the decades of racial theorising that formed the backdrop to Nazi's, there aren't large numbers of eugenics supporters for example, there isn't the (bar a very few hard right scum) link between "blood and soil" that there was in Germany at the beginning of the 20th century. To pretend that the current situation in Britain is anything link 30s Germany is just unhelpful twaddle.



TBF, the whole "blood and soil" thing hasn't gone away. It's just couched in ever more "scientific" language. There are still academics pushing the line (although whether through conviction or because of available funding, I don't know), even though most socio-biological claims are long discredited, or are nowadays so conditional and contingent as to be meaningless.

I think we *can *use Germany between 1890 and 1930 as a template for an expansion of minority behaviour - and anti-Semitism was a minority behaviour in Germany - into the mainstream, and how the antisocial elements of behaviour become normalised into everyday majority behaviour quite quickly. In terms of similarity here and now though, I'd say that the only meaningful similarity so far is that politicians are driving this, for their own purposes (as ever!) rather than ours.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 14, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I was, and they didn't. *They still knew that their shit wasn't shared by the majority*, even if "Nationwide" did show "dockers for Enoch" marching, and the OB (as ever) policed NF marches in a biased manner. It's why Webster couldn't drink in any local pubs within about a two mile radius of his home, *except* The Pine Tavern by Clapham Junction station. It's why the NF had to sneak onto most estates in London in the middle of the night to post up their propaganda, and why most of it lasted less than 24 hours. I can think of about 3 areas that were serious redoubts of racist nationalism in the SE around the '70s and '80s: Eltham, the area around Swanley, and Dover. Everywhere else, it was a minority of spuds making a lot of noise.



I was as well (down on the true blue south coast), and in my experience there was much more racism expressed in the day to day conversation and the media. I don't think that this meant that active racists - i.e. those consciously promoting racism - thought they were speaking for a silenced majority, but they were a lot more confident that they'd get a hearing.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> This isn't true though is it? It is accurate to say that racism was more prevalent and more openly expressed in the 1970s than it is now; just look at popular cultural representations in news papers and on the television. Or if you prefer go to a source like the Mass Observation Archive and look at the depth, virulence and common sense of antisemitism prior to the second world war. It is not asking anyone to get over anything to acknowledge this history.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



I think Rutita has a point, in that one of the most frequent refrains to mates who protested about racist language in the 70s and 80s - even from their own families, sometimes - was "ignore it".

Regarding prevalence, especially media prevalence, I'm somewhat sceptical toward the view that represents that prevalence as indicative of widely-held sentiment. The media have a long history of running with the prejudices and political preferences of their owners and/or other elements of the ruling class.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I was as well (down on the true blue south coast), and in my experience there was much more racism expressed in the day to day conversation and the media. I don't think that this meant that active racists - i.e. those consciously promoting racism - thought they were speaking for a silenced majority, but they were a lot more confident that they'd get a hearing.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



I think there are two issues that often get fused together, but that need to be addressed separately: the degree of normative quasi-racist language - which was often (but not always) a product of ignorance that tended to have fallen away with exposure to a multi-cultural environment - and actual hard-bitten racism and the politics of racism, which has shrunk consistently since the 70s *except* when mainstream politicians have stirred the pot.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jul 14, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I was, and they didn't. They still knew that their shit wasn't shared by the majority, even if "Nationwide" did show "dockers for Enoch" marching, and the OB (as ever) policed NF marches in a biased manner. It's why Webster couldn't drink in any local pubs within about a two mile radius of his home, *except* The Pine Tavern by Clapham Junction station. It's why the NF had to sneak onto most estates in London in the middle of the night to post up their propaganda, and why most of it lasted less than 24 hours. I can think of about 3 areas that were serious redoubts of racist nationalism in the SE around the '70s and '80s: Eltham, the area around Swanley, and Dover. Everywhere else, it was a minority of spuds making a lot of noise.


Yeah, I hear this used as an excuse for old people being racist - 'well everyone was back in their day'. No, everyone wasn't.


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 14, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> This isn't true though is it? It is accurate to say that racism was more prevalent and more openly expressed in the 1970s than it is now; just look at popular cultural representations in news papers and on the television. Or if you prefer go to a source like the Mass Observation Archive and look at the depth, virulence and common sense of antisemitism prior to the second world war. It is not asking anyone to get over anything to acknowledge this history.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Yes it is true. I was not referring to prevalence as compared to another era so I am not sure why you have introduced that comparison as if you know something I don't. I have no trouble acknowledging history/the period you have referred to either thanks for the most part because I lived that too and as a result have my own opinions and understanding.

I was specifically focusing on the offensive idea that you can measure racism on some kind of sliding scale of severity. Mild racism? That concept can GTF.


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## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I was, and they didn't. They still knew that their shit wasn't shared by the majority, even if "Nationwide" did show "dockers for Enoch" marching, and the OB (as ever) policed NF marches in a biased manner. It's why Webster couldn't drink in any local pubs within about a two mile radius of his home, *except* The Pine Tavern by Clapham Junction station. It's why the NF had to sneak onto most estates in London in the middle of the night to post up their propaganda, and why most of it lasted less than 24 hours. I can think of about 3 areas that were serious redoubts of racist nationalism in the SE around the '70s and '80s: Eltham, the area around Swanley, and Dover. Everywhere else, it was a minority of spuds making a lot of noise.



I was responding to the posters comments about racists not the nazi far right.


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## two sheds (Jul 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah, I hear this used as an excuse for old people being racist - 'well everyone was back in their day'. No, everyone wasn't.



True, but things were allowed and people joined in laughing at things that wouldn't be tolerated now.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 14, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes it is true. I was not referring to prevalence as compared to another era so I am not sure why you have introduced that comparison as if you know something I don't. I have no trouble acknowledging history/the period you have referred to either thanks for the most part because I lived that too and as a result have my own opinions and understanding.
> 
> I was specifically focusing on the offensive idea that you can measure racism on some kind of sliding scale of severity. Mild racism? That concept can GTF.



All I was trying to say is that pointing out that some racism has worse effects than others (which is a sliding scale of severity), shouldn't be controversial and absolutely shouldn't be used to excuse any racism.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 14, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> All I was trying to say is that pointing out that some racism has worse effects than others (which is a sliding scale of severity), shouldn't be controversial and absolutely shouldn't be used to excuse any racism.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



That is a shift away from the point I made which was *not *a focus on the possible effects/outcomes as a result of racism.


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## krtek a houby (Jul 14, 2016)

sim667 said:


> I'm not sure what issue you take with the comment, history shows that this is exactly how extreme xenophobia starts.



And by those who play it down.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 14, 2016)

sim667 said:


> I'm not sure what issue you take with the comment, history shows that this is exactly how *extreme* xenophobia starts.



Are you implying that there is such a thing as _non_-extreme xenophobia?


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## sim667 (Jul 14, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Are you implying that there is such a thing as _non_-extreme xenophobia?


And by asking that question are you comparing making a racist joke to racially prejudiced genocide in their severity?

You can't simultaneously argue that "minor" racism incidents lead to "severe" racist incidents and that there's no distinction between "minor" and "severe" at the same time.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 14, 2016)

sim667 said:


> And by asking that question are you comparing making a racist joke to racially prejudiced genocide in their severity?
> 
> You can't simultaneously argue that "minor" racism incidents lead to "severe" racist incidents and that there's no distinction between "minor" and "severe" at the same time.



Which was my point. It was a rhetorical question.


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## Enviro (Jul 14, 2016)

coley said:


> she told News Shopper.
> Obviously a tabloid that has the pulse of the nation in its grip.
> Joking apart, totally shameful and disgusting.



The comments on that article are ..... I just shouldn't read them, should I?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2016)

Enviro said:


> The comments on that article are ..... I just shouldn't read them, should I?


never read comments on articles.


----------



## belboid (Jul 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Indeed. Wtf is that?
> 
> Racism is racism.


hang on, we had this discussion re homophobia on the other thread.  Yes, of course racism is racism, but sometimes it is worse than at other times.  The racism of the scum who killed Stephen Lawrence was far far worse than the racism of someone who 'doesn't mind individual people from [insert country here]', but thinks that there are too many over here, for whatever reason. There is a difference between those who have _some _racist ideas, and some non, or even anti-racist, ones, and those who just hate all pakis/niggers/etc  If we just lump them all in together, we push those with some soft racist ideas into the hands of the hardened scumbags.

But that wasn't actually the point I was making, and that 39th was agreeing with. My point was that the attacks themsleves were, mostly, comparatively mild compared to the attacks that happened when I was growing up. Having yoghurt thrown over you, being spat at, told to 'fuck off home' are all absolutely vile, but there's no blood spilt, no 13 dead in a house fire and the police laughing about it. That doesnt mean we should jsut ignore it, or dismiss it, but we must get it into persepctive. otherwise we cant deal with it properly


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 14, 2016)

belboid said:


> hang on, we had this discussion re homophobia on the other thread.  Yes, of course racism is racism, but sometimes it is worse than at other times.  The racism of the scum who killed Stephen Lawrence was far far worse than the racism of someone who 'doesn't mind individual people from [insert country here]', but thinks that there are too many over here, for whatever reason. There is a difference between those who have _some _racist ideas, and some non, or even anti-racist, ones, and those who just hate all pakis/niggers/etc  If we just lump them all in together, we push those with some soft racist ideas into the hands of the hardened scumbags.
> 
> But that wasn't actually the point I was making, and that 39th was agreeing with. My point was that the attacks themsleves were, mostly, comparatively mild compared to the attacks that happened when I was growing up. Having yoghurt thrown over you, being spat at, told to 'fuck off home' are all absolutely vile, but there's no blood spilt, no 13 dead in a house fire and the police laughing about it. That doesnt mean we should jsut ignore it, or dismiss it, but we must get it into persepctive. otherwise we cant deal with it properly



I refer you to my previous post.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 14, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Utter tosh. Let's put some context into this , despite what some posters in Planet Urban say the level and type of incidents being reported are not akin to the rise of Hitler in Germany .


Let's just make it properly fucking clear that I was not saying anything of the sort: the fact that you want to make that kind of point says a lot more about the validity of your argument than those you're criticising.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 14, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> If you had been around in the 70s you would have found that the racists actually thought that they did think their views were mainstream and spoke for the majority.


I was around in the 1970s. I'm well aware of the tenor of the racism of the time.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Let's just make it properly fucking clear that I was not saying anything of the sort: the fact that you want to make that kind of point says a lot more about the validity of your argument than those you're criticising.


Your post suggested  that that what is happening here was similar to the situation in 20s/30s Germany. You literally did that comparison.


----------



## belboid (Jul 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I refer you to my previous post.


so you think there is no difference between someone saying something offensive and stabbing someone?  It's all the same thing?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Let's just make it properly fucking clear that I was not saying anything of the sort: the fact that you want to make that kind of point says a lot more about the validity of your argument than those you're criticising.


What does this say about the poster btw? He's a long term anti-fascist whose had a whole load more of grief for it than most posters here.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 14, 2016)

belboid said:


> so you think there is no difference between someone saying something offensive and stabbing someone?  It's all the same thing?



I refer you to my previous posts. Racism is racism. It's all vile and those who engage in it should be packed off to the gulags.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jul 14, 2016)

To a camp under the administration of Gulag.


----------



## belboid (Jul 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I refer you to my previous posts. Racism is racism. It's all vile and those who engage in it should be packed off to the gulags.


I prefer to argue with those with soft racist ideas, to win them over.  And to introduce the other lot to the pavement.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I was around in the 1970s. I'm well aware of the tenor of the racism of the time.



Ok what was it then?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 14, 2016)

Soft racism? What is that?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 14, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Soft racism? What is that?



To me, soft racism is where people are nice to your face, when in fact they don't approve of you because of your race.

'Hard racism', is cops shooting you when you reach for your wallet, being attacked verbally or physically in the street, crosses burned on your lawn, etc.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 14, 2016)

Interesting article/blog? here

I Recorded The Racist Things People Said & Did To Me For 2 Weeks

All this talk of "soft" racism makes me think of when my cousin and her daughter went to get a driving license and the woman behind the counter said to the daughter that they couldn't be related (different skin colour, different surnames) 

The woman couldn't understand why my cousin was so pissed off.


----------



## belboid (Jul 14, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Soft racism? What is that?


The stupid things people say out of ignorance (I mean real ignorance, actual not knowing), that they probably don't mean to be offensive, even tho it is. They don't hate black people, just know nothing about them (and may well think of them as one homogenous 'them'). It's a mistake, imo, to just lump them in with the hardcore BNP types


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 14, 2016)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> To me, soft racism is where people are nice to your face, when in fact they don't approve of you because of your race.
> 
> 'Hard racism', is cops shooting you when you reach for your wallet, being attacked verbally or physically in the street, crosses burned on your lawn, etc.


What you are comparing are the actions of racists and their behaviours\ the possible outcomes, from dishonest cowards to violent thugs. Racism is the motivation, that doesn't change.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 14, 2016)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> To me, soft racism is where people are nice to your face, when in fact they don't approve of you because of your race.
> 
> 'Hard racism', is cops shooting you when you reach for your wallet, being attacked verbally or physically in the street, crosses burned on your lawn, etc.





belboid said:


> The stupid things people say out of ignorance (I mean real ignorance, actual not knowing), that they probably don't mean to be offensive, even tho it is. They don't hate black people, just know nothing about them (and may well think of them as one homogenous 'them'). It's a mistake, imo, to just lump them in with the hardcore BNP types



I think there's a lot of merit to both of those definitions. And by both definitions, none of the incidents we're talking about on this thread is 'soft racism'.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 14, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> What you are comparing are the actions of racists and their behaviours\ the possible outcomes, from dishonest cowards to violent thugs. Racism is the motivation, that doesn't change.



I'm comparing the effects of racism. It's one thing to be served last in a restaurant, or to have someone look at you with distaste, for no obvious reason[apart from your skin color]. It's another to be shot for being black at the wrong time or place, to be brutalized by police, to be attacked by skinheads etc.

Neither is acceptable. But, while I detest being the victim of 'soft' racism,  I live in fear for myself or those close to me becoming the victim of 'hard' racism.


----------



## CRI (Jul 14, 2016)

Nope, I don't get this thing of sticking racist behaviours in neat boxes - one labeled "mild" and the other "hard," one annoying but harmless, the other a big deal.  It's not like there are only two extremes with plenty fresh air in between, or some objective way of deciding what's okay and what's not.

It's more like a continuum. The difference between behaviour at one point and the next step along may seem too small to make much difference.  That's how behaviours deemed to be "acceptable" can creep towards the more extreme end without being massively noticeable.  The more people do stuff seen as "no big shakes" without any sanction, the more they'll push the boundaries towards that more extreme end. 

Anybody familiar with Allport's Scale of Oppression?  It's still really simplified and the layers overlap and can depend on context, but shows how actions can escalate given the right circumstances and if not challenged 








Thinking about it, the only "benefit" I can think of trying to split behaviours into "no big deal" and "big deal" is it gives the people not affected by racism the excuse to dismiss and ignore the experiences of those who DO, so long as they can argue those experiences fit in the "no big deal" box.  Lovely.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 14, 2016)

Who has said that any racism is 'no big deal'?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 14, 2016)

CRI said:


> Nope, I don't get this thing of sticking racist behaviours in neat boxes - one labeled "mild" and the other "hard," one annoying but harmless, the other a big deal.



Well jc3 spoke of 'soft' and 'hard', but he didn't call either harmless.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well jc3 spoke of 'soft' and 'hard', but he didn't call either harmless.


Actually, belboid referred to 'soft' racist ideas; Rutita questioned what 'soft' racism was; and then I commented.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 14, 2016)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Actually, belboid referred to 'soft' racist ideas; Rutita questioned what 'soft' racism was; and then I commented.


fair dos. belboid didn't call anything 'harmless' either, mind.


----------



## felixthecat (Jul 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> All this talk of "soft" racism makes me think of when my cousin and her daughter went to get a driving license and the woman behind the counter said to the daughter that they couldn't be related (different skin colour, different surnames)
> 
> The woman couldn't understand why my cousin was so pissed off.



I was once asked if my son was adopted - me being white and blonde and my son looking like a Pacific Islander thanks to his father's complex genetics.
I was more shocked than pissed off at the time tbh


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 14, 2016)

I don't think either is harmless.

This is a version of any 'lesser of two evils' type question. Eg: which would you prefer - a broken leg or a caved-in skull?

Personally, I'd rather have a broken leg: but both are bad, and ideally, I'd prefer to have neither.

Both 'evils' are evil: one is just the lesser of two evils.


----------



## CRI (Jul 14, 2016)

Seriously, all you can take away from my post is that I suggested some racism is harmless?  Really?  Christ.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 15, 2016)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'm comparing the effects of racism. It's one thing to be served last in a restaurant, or to have someone look at you with distaste, for no obvious reason[apart from your skin color]. It's another to be shot for being black at the wrong time or place, to be brutalized by police, to be attacked by skinheads etc.
> 
> Neither is acceptable. But, while I detest being the victim of 'soft' racism,  I live in fear for myself or those close to me becoming the victim of 'hard' racism.



I don't agree with the use of terms like 'soft' or 'hard' racism. For me what you are comparing are the effects of racism/the possible behaviours of people who are racist  which of course can be a range of hurtful, offensive, abusive and/or fatal depending on the context and who that person is.

My point here is that to conflate the effects of racism, with the motivation (that someone is racist) which doesn't change, and create a hierarchy in the way that both directly and indirectly feeds the narrative that over the course of my lifetime has given us such dismissive gems as:

Sticks and stones...
It's only words...
You should count yourself lucky because in x place...
Grow a thicker skin...
It could be worse...
It's no big deal...
What you making such a fuss about...

The focus being shifted away from the perpetrator onto the victim. The responsibility also. Racist attitudes/behaviours are 'normalised'  and become acceptable as a result.


----------



## NoBystander (Jul 15, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You think he did this because he's white and because the original poster isn't  then?


More likely because he is middle class with all the entitlement that comes with it. Does the point have to be framed in those terms for it to be taken seriously?

Diminishment and division are tools of the other side in the class war. To pretend that race is something else that is of no interest to the working class is to invite defeat by diminishing and dividing the forces you need on your side.


----------



## Xenonxenon (Jul 15, 2016)

"the Brexit vote is being used to demonize the white proletariat"
"how did we get into such a state that using the word "chinky" is considered a crime against humanity?"
"If that photo of the nf in Newcastle was taken in the 80s there would be at least 40 of them, not 4."
"the poles here can mostly look after themselves physically"
"I don't think its a nationalism issue as such, just people feeling they have been abandoned by the political process"
"mild racism"
"trivial acts"


----------



## CRI (Jul 15, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> I don't agree with the use of terms like 'soft' or 'hard' racism. For me what you are comparing are the effects of racism/the possible behaviours of people who are racist  which of course can be a range of hurtful, offensive, abusive and/or fatal depending on the context and who that person is.
> 
> My point here is that to conflate the effects of racism, with the motivation (that someone is racist) which doesn't change, and create a hierarchy in the way that both directly and indirectly feeds the narrative that over the course of my lifetime has given us such dismissive gems as:
> 
> ...


This, this absolutely all of this.

In the same vein,* this* thread includes scores of posts discussing Smirnoff Ice retail packaging and debating the length of time required for consumption followed by pages speculating which painting implements were used to graffiti the Polish Community Centre, what was written and whether photos were 'shopped.   

Why put so much bloody effort into deconstructing these two examples among hundreds and hundreds of accounts of racist and xenophobic incidents in the run up and after the EU referendum?  By "deconstructing" I mean "discrediting."  You know, that minimising, denying and blaming stuff.


----------



## CRI (Jul 15, 2016)

Xenonxenon said:


> "the Brexit vote is being used to demonize the white proletariat"
> "how did we get into such a state that using the word "chinky" is considered a crime against humanity?"
> "If that photo of the nf in Newcastle was taken in the 80s there would be at least 40 of them, not 4."
> "the poles here can mostly look after themselves physically"
> ...



Yep, these are the latest additions to the list from Rutita1 above.  

For what it's worth, I found this analysis interesting _It's NOT the economy, stupid:  Brexit as a story of personal values_

Yeah, I know.

"Not all Brexiters . . . "


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2016)

CRI said:


> This, this absolutely all of this.
> 
> In the same vein,* this* thread includes scores of posts discussing Smirnoff Ice retail packaging and debating the length of time required for consumption followed by pages speculating which painting implements were used to graffiti the Polish Community Centre, what was written and whether photos were 'shopped.
> 
> Why put so much bloody effort into deconstructing these two examples among hundreds and hundreds of accounts of racist and xenophobic incidents in the run up and after the EU referendum?  By "deconstructing" I mean "discrediting."  You know, that minimising, denying and blaming stuff.


i don't suppose you recall the person who was on here round the time of jean charles de menezes was shot who claimed to have been in stockwell at the time but was later found to be a fantasist. the two examples you highlight - in particular the one about omp - have some rather peculiar aspects not shared by so many of the other incidents. why would anyone not polish a) know or b) care about a think tank?


----------



## inva (Jul 15, 2016)

CRI said:


> Yep, these are the latest additions to the list from Rutita1 above.
> 
> For what it's worth, I found this analysis interesting _It's NOT the economy, stupid:  Brexit as a story of personal values_
> 
> ...


that article looks like utter drivel to me. Uses a ridiculous definition of class to argue it played no role (I guess if you purposefully exclude virtually everyone from the category of working class it suddenly doesn't look like much of a factor ), shows no curiosity about the 'invisible attitudes' referred to and what might be driving them or why they might be related to class and ends up with leave voters are just all nasty right wingers who can't stand 'difference'.

"By contrast, people oriented toward success and display (‘Prospectors’), or who prioritise expressive individualism and cultural equality (‘Pioneers’) voted Remain."
'oriented toward success'! 
don't mention class!

"open and closed personalities"


seriously.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 15, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Utter tosh. Let's put some context into this , despite what some posters in Planet Urban say the level and type of incidents being reported are not akin to the rise of Hitler in Germany .


Context is important. History wont repeat itself identically. However there are very real parallels with the 1930s. We discussed these before the referendum and they were expressed widely by Yanis Varoufakis. I'll recap some of it:

It is necessary to consider Europe as a whole for this, not just the UK. Europe is already blighted with a resurgent far right. That takes its forms in the like of Le Pens election-winning, carefully-spoken party, to other nationalist-right-moralist governments across Easter Europe, to parties like Golden Dawn in Greece, to neo-nazi communities out in the woods.

Europe is struggling to deal with an unprecedented migration crisis that isn't about to go away. It also has an economy that is limping along and may well utterly crack again (see news stories about Deutsche Bank and Italian banks in general). Its a potential time bomb that the far right will make plenty hay from. It is hugely worrying. My understanding is that the people of Greece, despite their awful experiences, didn't want to abandon the Euro and the EU at least in part from a real fear of fascism returning as a dominant political force in their country.

What has happened so far in the UK is worrying, but it is nowhere near as bad as things could possibly get.

Angela Merkel insists if the UK wants access to the EU it will mean no restrictions on movement of people we currently have. Those people who voted Leave as in All Foreigners Leave will take it into their hands to make people leave if the border arrangement remains the same (and I want it  to remain the same). When the next bit of the financial ice shelf falls into the sea it will create another huge wave of xenephobic and racist hate.

So yes, you are right, we are not in the middle of a Nazi-style final solution. But don't be complacent about whats at stake here, or the forces at work across Europe. Parallels with the 1930s are far from nonsense.

ETA: When I voiced fears before the referendum it wasnt over the kind of incidents being experienced so far - it was over something on a much bigger scale, and that still shits me up. Whats happened so far is just reinforcing those worries


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Context is important. History wont repeat itself identically. However there are very real parallels with the 1930s. We discussed these before the referendum and they were expressed widely by Yanis Varoufakis. I'll recap some of it:
> 
> It is necessary to consider Europe as a whole for this, not just the UK. Europe is already blighted with a resurgent far right. That takes its forms in the like of Le Pens election-winning, carefully-spoken party, to other nationalist-right-moralist governments across Easter Europe, to parties like Golden Dawn in Greece, to neo-nazi communities out in the woods.
> 
> ...


sorry, where are these parallels with the 1930s?

have you looked at the 1930s to make this comparison, because to my eye the 1930s looked really rather different to today, e.g. the number of dictators in europe. the mass unemployment, proper mass unemployment. the revanchist ideas relating to the versailles treaty. the utter absence of pan-european organisations - not just the eu or efta but things like the council of europe, the oecd etc  etc. what migrant crisis in the 1930s - you describe the current one as unprecedented, thus suggesting a disimilarity with the 1930s.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> sorry, where are these parallels with the 1930s?
> 
> have you looked at the 1930s to make this comparison, because to my eye the 1930s looked really rather different to today, e.g. the number of dictators in europe. the mass unemployment, proper mass unemployment. the revanchist ideas relating to the versailles treaty. the utter absence of pan-european organisations - not just the eu or efta but things like the council of europe, the oecd etc  etc. what migrant crisis in the 1930s - you describe the current one as unprecedented, thus suggesting a disimilarity with the 1930s.


As I said in first line "History wont repeat itself identically." Leni Riefenstahl hasnt made any new films either. Nazis didnt have an official twitter feed. Of course the world is utterly different.

However: Theres already massive youth unemployment across Europe and the financial system cannot handle another crisis such as if italian banks fail.
There is already a growing mood of seperatism, nationalism and xenophobia.
Anti-migrant, islamaphobic, xenophobic sentiment is taking root across Europe.
If you cant see the* parallels,* fine. But to me theyre clear as day.
And maybe whats confusing is that we're not exactly there yet, but what worries me is that the signs are thats where we're going, or could go. If you believe Europe-wide  Neoliberalism is doomed to fail and create further inequality then you should see that too.

ETA: Heres an old Varoufakis piece:
Yanis Varoufakis: Europe is sliding back into the 1930s
Seven months after resigning as Greek finance minister, Mr. Varoufakis now thinks “the signs are everywhere” that Europe is echoing history.

“We don't have Nazis doing Kristallnacht in Berlin. [But] We have Nazis in Greece doing something similar in a suburb of Greece, where they are attacking in the middle of the night the shops and houses of migrants.”

“There are big differences, but from the perspective of an economist we have terrible similarities.”

Along with the rise of far-right parties across Europe, Varoufakis points to the high level of unemployment throughout the eurozone as a significant cause of the tensions that exist.

It is still at crisis levels, and is twice as high as in the US and the UK – who are now reaching what economists consider ‘full employment’.
---
incidentally im not just parroting what he says, i came to the same conclusion independently


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2016)

ska invita said:


> As I said in first line "History wont repeat itself identically." Leni Riefenstahl hasnt made any new films either. Nazis didnt have an official twitter feed. Of course the world is utterly different.
> 
> However: Theres already massive youth unemployment across Europe and the financial system cannot handle another crisis such as if italian banks fail.
> There is already a growing mood of seperatism, nationalism and xenophobia.
> ...


maybe you can see parallels. but what you had in the 1930s, which made the early 1940s so bloody, was the presence of expansionist governments in italy, germany and japan; an utterly ineffective international machinery whose most lasting legacy is a system of international road signs; and the withdrawal from a world role of the united states. you seem to me to be saying 'the parallels with the 1930s may make the next decade end as did that one'. i am not so sure it will.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> maybe you can see parallels. but what you had in the 1930s, which made the early 1940s so bloody, was the presence of expansionist governments in italy, germany and japan; an utterly ineffective international machinery whose most lasting legacy is a system of international road signs; and the withdrawal from a world role of the united states. you seem to me to be saying 'the parallels with the 1930s may make the next decade end as did that one'. i am not so sure it will.


I think youre taking the comparison to the 30s period too literally - Drawing lessons form history doesnt mean waiting for history to repeat itself identically.The point to take is the environmental material economic political conditions are ripe and ripening further for a resurgent racist and xenophobic right - everything is to play for and it will play out utterly differently to the 1930s. But the fears are real, the canaries in the mine are gasping for air, and the potential for another mass outbreak of far right sentiment with political organisation is showing good odds.

I do not think it will create a WW2 replay, if thats what you mean. I hope not. Of course that is *always* a possibility too, in the fullness of time. Stranger things have happened.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 15, 2016)

CRI said:


> Why put so much bloody effort into deconstructing these two examples among hundreds and hundreds of accounts of racist and xenophobic incidents in the run up and after the EU referendum?  By "deconstructing" I mean "discrediting."  You know, that minimising, denying and blaming stuff.



Why do you think some sections of the press, and the local Tory MP lied that the graffiti said 'go home'?  Do you not think there are political motivations behind that that should be explored?  Do you not find it shocking that a newspaper could run a story claiming graffiti said one thing with a picture that showed it said something very different and it went almost unquestioned?  Talk about Emperors new fucking clothes.

Is this anti-racism, making things up to prove a point?  Fuelling an undeniable rise in racist incidents with lies, or sloppy journalism?  Every attack on an ethnic minority business is a clarion call for the organised right and over-stating attacks on businesses is likely to lead to copycat attacks and increased confidence for the very people who would want to do that.  You might have heard of propaganda by the deed.  That's why this shit is dangerous and a bit of fucking rigour is required.  Even the filth know that.


----------



## Xenonxenon (Jul 15, 2016)

"Is this anti-racism, making things up to prove a point?"
"over-stating attacks on businesses is likely to lead to copycat attacks"


----------



## smokedout (Jul 15, 2016)

Xenonxenon said:


> "Is this anti-racism, making things up to prove a point?"
> "over-stating attacks on businesses is likely to lead to copycat attacks"



why not go drown a syrian?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2016)

ska invita said:


> I think youre taking the comparison to the 30s period too literally - Drawing lessons form history doesnt mean waiting for history to repeat itself identically.The point to take is the environmental material economic political conditions are ripe and ripening further for a resurgent racist and xenophobic right - everything is to play for and it will play out utterly differently to the 1930s. But the fears are real, the canaries in the mine are gasping for air, and the potential for another mass outbreak of far right sentiment with political organisation is showing good odds.
> 
> I do not think it will create a WW2 replay, if thats what you mean. I hope not. Of course that is *always* a possibility too, in the fullness of time. Stranger things have happened.


yes. at some points every part of the past has parallels to today: you could look at for example the responses of parts of english society to the influx of jews in the late nineteenth century. yes, there are real fears. but the people who are manipulating those fears are in all honesty very few. my point is that the drivers NOW for the rise of a radical right and the drivers THEN (1920s, 1930s) for the rise of a radical right are very different. on the one hand factors including dissatisfaction with the eu's response to the economic crisis of recent years and with intra-eu migration - and of course the movement of many many thousands of people from the middle east and africa to europe; on the other the results of the great war, the division of europe upon the end of the continental empires, the presence in the east of a new polity, the soviet union...

it is always comforting to believe that history repeats itself, even if in a different key a similar melody has been heard before. tbh that's only possible if you pick out a phrase here and there from the orchestra of current events.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 15, 2016)

smokedout said:


> why not go drown a syrian?


eh?


----------



## smokedout (Jul 15, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> eh?



Crass point, sorry, I assumed they just voted for the institution currently drowning Syrians, and wondered how it looked if that meant every utterance by them was met with sneery veiled accusations of racism.


----------



## CRI (Jul 15, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> eh?


Didn't like Xeno pointing out the victim blaming statements in his/her post, so lashed out. Poor lamb.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 15, 2016)

CRI said:


> Didn't like Xeno pointing out the victim blaming statements in his/her post, so lashed out. Poor lamb.



the victim in this case being the Evening Standard you mean?


----------



## smokedout (Jul 15, 2016)

Or perhaps Tory MP Greg Hands which seems to be where this piece of misinformation came from


> Mr Hands, who himself backed the Remain campaign, tweeted: “Am hearing that the Polish Centre in Hammersmith has been smeared with ‘Go Home’. This is an unspeakable crime and is indescribably awful.


----------



## Anju (Jul 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. at some points every part of the past has parallels to today: you could look at for example the responses of parts of english society to the influx of jews in the late nineteenth century. yes, there are real fears. but the people who are manipulating those fears are in all honesty very few. my point is that the drivers NOW for the rise of a radical right and the drivers THEN (1920s, 1930s) for the rise of a radical right are very different. on the one hand factors including dissatisfaction with the eu's response to the economic crisis of recent years and with intra-eu migration - and of course the movement of many many thousands of people from the middle east and africa to europe; on the other the results of the great war, the division of europe upon the end of the continental empires, the presence in the east of a new polity, the soviet union...
> 
> it is always comforting to believe that history repeats itself, even if in a different key a similar melody has been heard before. tbh that's only possible if you pick out a phrase here and there from the orchestra of current events.



People are not disputing that the drivers are different. They are saying that public perception of events and the xenophobic framing of our current immigration problems by politicians and media is paving the way for a nasty shift to the far right.


----------



## Anju (Jul 15, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Why do you think some sections of the press, and the local Tory MP lied that the graffiti said 'go home'?  Do you not think there are political motivations behind that that should be explored?  Do you not find it shocking that a newspaper could run a story claiming graffiti said one thing with a picture that showed it said something very different and it went almost unquestioned?  Talk about Emperors new fucking clothes.
> 
> Is this anti-racism, making things up to prove a point?  Fuelling an undeniable rise in racist incidents with lies, or sloppy journalism?  Every attack on an ethnic minority business is a clarion call for the organised right and over-stating attacks on businesses is likely to lead to copycat attacks and increased confidence for the very people who would want to do that.  You might have heard of propaganda by the deed.  That's why this shit is dangerous and a bit of fucking rigour is required.  Even the filth know that.



I don't think it was any kind of media conspiracy, just sloppy journalism.  I think you are right to suggest more rigour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2016)

Anju said:


> People are not disputing that the drivers are different. They are saying that public perception of events and the xenophobic framing of our current immigration problems by politicians and media is paving the way for a nasty shift to the far right.


i was not responding to 'people' i was responding to one person, ska invita. 

i am interested by 'our current immigration problems'. what do these problems consist of?


----------



## Anju (Jul 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i was not responding to 'people' i was responding to one person, ska invita.
> 
> i am interested by 'our current immigration problems'. what do these problems consist of?



The same ones Ska Invita referred to.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2016)

Anju said:


> I actually came here to ask what, if any, impact people think the attack in Nice last night might have over bere
> 
> 
> The same ones Ska Invita referred to.


he hasn't mentioned immigration on this thread since june 28.

what do YOU mean by 'our current immigration problems'?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> he hasn't mentioned immigration on this thread since june 28.
> 
> what do YOU mean by 'our current immigration problems'?



ska invita directly refers to migration/movement of people and the issues with regard attitudes towards that in his posts above.

You may want Anju to explain his views to you but don't be disingenuous about what other people have posted in your attempts to belittle someone.


----------



## Anju (Jul 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> he hasn't mentioned immigration on this thread since june 28.
> 
> what do YOU mean by 'our current immigration problems'?



He mentioned migrants and racism, the unprecedented numbers of immigrants. 

These are problems and I called them immigration problems because they are just that. Problems related to immigration being used by some people to divide us.

Please stop deliberately misinterpreting things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> ska invita directly refers to migration/movement of people and the issues with regard attitudes towards that in his posts above.
> 
> You may want Anju to explain his views to you but don't be disingenuous about what other people have posted in your attempts to belittle someone.


yes, i saw where this morning ska invita posted about the unprecedented migrant crisis.

what i would like anju to do is explain what he meant by his phrase 'our immigration problems'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2016)

Anju said:


> He mentioned migrants and racism, the unprecedented numbers of immigrants.
> 
> These are problems and I called them immigration problems because they are just that. Problems related to immigration being used by some people to divide us.
> 
> Please stop deliberately misinterpreting things.


i haven't misinterpreted anything you have said, i have simply asked what you meant by them. please don't be dishonest.


----------



## Anju (Jul 15, 2016)

Was not sure where to post this. It is post referendum and anti racism but also anti austerity and calling for a GE. About 2.6k have said they will attend and another 3k interested. Please post details elsewhere if you think worthwhile.

Saturday 16 July. 12pm BBC HQ. Portland Place, W1A 1AA


----------



## belboid (Jul 15, 2016)

CRI said:


> Nope, I don't get this thing of sticking racist behaviours in neat boxes - one labeled "mild" and the other "hard," one annoying but harmless, the other a big deal.  It's not like there are only two extremes with plenty fresh air in between, or some objective way of deciding what's okay and what's not.


hang on, sorry, but I have never said that one was 'harmless' not in any way shape or form.  My point is simply that not everyone who holds some racist opinions is a total scumbag who can't be argued with and won over.  If we treat everyone the same, we are at risk of pushing those 'soft' racists into the hardened camp.  I appreciate why you are not keen on my terminology,  and if you can think of a better one, great.



> It's more like a continuum. The difference between behaviour at one point and the next step along may seem too small to make much difference.  That's how behaviours deemed to be "acceptable" can creep towards the more extreme end without being massively noticeable.  The more people do stuff seen as "no big shakes" without any sanction, the more they'll push the boundaries towards that more extreme end.


The first sentence is pretty much what I was trying to say. But the second sentence doesn't follow. those smaller slights must absolutely challenged and argued against, they should absolutely *not *be dismissed as 'no big shakes.'  But they shouldn't simply be dismissed as not worth arguing with, like we would with the likes of Nick Griffin.



> Anybody familiar with Allport's Scale of Oppression?  It's still really simplified and the layers overlap and can depend on context, but shows how actions can escalate given the right circumstances and if not challenged
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks very much like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, with similar issues (notably the ones you have noted).  It does also have the fault that, whereas with Maslow, the bottom was simply the bottom, without that base layer [physiological needs] we would simply die, whereas this has a bottom that we want to reject.  Where is the layer showing people who dont exhibit oppressive behaviour?  Why do people move from there to the bottom (shown) layer?  That's a pretty big omission, imo.  Again, tho, I have to point out that at no point, and in no way, do I say that the attacks that have taken place, or any attack, is 'no big deal', that is utterly and wholly wrong.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 15, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> My point here is that to conflate the effects of racism, with the motivation (that someone is racist) which doesn't change, and create a hierarchy in the way that both directly and indirectly feeds the narrative that over the course of my lifetime has given us such dismissive gems as:
> 
> Sticks and stones...
> It's only words...
> ...



You've taken what I said a step or two further than what I meant; and I'm not sure that there's any actual disagreement between us.

Racist thoughts, ideas and actions can and do exist along a continuum. None of it is right, nor is any of it acceptable. And it's a worthy and necessary task to try and eliminate all of it.

But given what's happened in human history so far, I'm not optimistic that all racism and xenophobia can be erased from the human psyche.

As a member of a group that has been and is targeted by racist thoughts and actions, I despair of the fact that myself and my family ever have to be subjected to any racism in any form.

But having said that, I am in fact glad that we as a mixed-race family live in Canada in 2016, and not in Selma Alabama in 1965.

It is better here in Canada in 2016 than it was there and then. It's not perfect by a long shot, but it's better.


----------



## Anju (Jul 17, 2016)

Not really relevant to brexit but there were no threads I could see that were any better than this one.  Apparently you can now pop to Bond Street and buy one of these, if you have a few hundred pounds to spare.


----------



## sealion (Jul 17, 2016)

Anju said:


> Not really relevant to brexit but there were no threads I could see that were any better than this one.  Apparently you can now pop to Bond Street and buy one of these, if you have a few hundred pounds to spare.
> View attachment 89661


What shop are selling these?


----------



## fishfinger (Jul 17, 2016)

Sea Lion said:


> What shop are selling these?


It's Moncler

Moncler Controversial Golliwog Dolls Collection | Highsnobiety


----------



## sealion (Jul 17, 2016)

fishfinger said:


> It's Moncler
> 
> Moncler Controversial Golliwog Dolls Collection | Highsnobiety


Thanks.


----------



## Anju (Jul 17, 2016)

Sea Lion said:


> What shop are selling these?



Moncler. They have a whole range of stuff with the same design. I thought it might be a sick joke at first and can't see the stuff on their site but this photo was also on Facebook. Apparently they have withdrawn the stuff from sale and apologised on Twitter


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 17, 2016)

Anju said:


> Not really relevant to brexit but there were no threads I could see that were any better than this one.  Apparently you can now pop to Bond Street and buy one of these, if you have a few hundred pounds to spare.
> View attachment 89661


Why not explore the boards a bit more? After all as you admit this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, so either start a new one or put it on the lonely post thread.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 18, 2016)

CRI said:


> Seriously, all you can take away from my post is that I suggested some racism is harmless?  Really?  Christ.


I opted out of this thread when I realised it had descended into one of those where too many people are Taking A Position and assuming that anything anyone else says is also Taking A Position.

But I want to apologise for my intemperate responses upthread - I was in a lot of pain, frustrated and grumpy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 18, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I opted out of this thread when I realised it had descended into one of those where too many people are Taking A Position and assuming that anything anyone else says is also Taking A Position.
> 
> But I want to apologise for my intemperate responses upthread - I was in a lot of pain, frustrated and grumpy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 18, 2016)

Anju said:


> Not really relevant to brexit but there were no threads I could see that were any better than this one.  Apparently you can now pop to Bond Street and buy one of these, if you have a few hundred pounds to spare.
> View attachment 89661



Personally, I hope that loads of people buy them, on the principle that anyone wearing one is a cunt, and should be slapped.


----------



## Anju (Jul 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


>






Pickman's model said:


> Why not explore the boards a bit more? After all as you admit this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, so either start a new one or put it on the lonely post thread.



Self awareness fail.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2016)

Anju said:


> Self awareness fail.


 perhaps you aren't familiar with Madonna's song 'vogue' which has clear resonance with existentialist's post quoted. You're full of fail.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you aren't familiar with Madonna's song 'vogue' which has clear resonance with existentialist's post quoted. You're full of fail.


Well, _I_ knew what you meant, anyway. Bastard


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 25, 2016)




----------



## Xenonxenon (Jul 28, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


>



Urban nationalists a little quiet on this one, bit boring the racist abuse now I guess  It's all about some people in the labour party now for the chattering Lexit classes.


----------



## CNT36 (Jul 28, 2016)

Yeah, we'll just sit here and log every racist incident instead of visiting places where they are doing it far more effectively. Do you have anything to add other than the Treelover party piece?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 28, 2016)

Xenonxenon said:


> Urban nationalists a little quiet on this one, bit boring the racist abuse now I guess  It's all about some people in the labour party now for the chattering Lexit classes.



Because, of course, if you voted "leave", you've absolutely got to be a nationalist member of the "chattering Lexit classes", haven't you?


----------



## Xenonxenon (Jul 28, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because, of course, if you voted "leave", you've absolutely got to be a nationalist member of the "chattering Lexit classes", haven't you?


Yeah the ones here do. Easy to see from what they say. Basically `suck it up foreign types it's just a slap`. Not you so much, from what I can see of you, to be fair. You've got some non-wasp in you i bet. Your friends though, keep an eye on them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2016)

Xenonxenon said:


> Yeah the ones here do. Easy to see from what they say. Basically `suck it up foreign types it's just a slap`. Not you so much, from what I can see of you, to be fair. You've got some non-wasp in you i bet. Your friends though, keep an eye on them.


yeh ViolentPanda, but keep your enemies closer


----------



## smokedout (Jul 28, 2016)

Xenonxenon said:


> Yeah the ones here do. Easy to see from what they say. Basically `suck it up foreign types it's just a slap`. Not you so much, from what I can see of you, to be fair. You've got some non-wasp in you i bet. Your friends though, keep an eye on them.



Cheer up, some burger chain just deported a load on non-fortress Europe types. The ones that the Euro-imperialist chattering bremainers like you voted to keep out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Cheer up, some burger chain just deported a load on non-fortress Europe types. The ones that the Euro-imperialist chattering brexiters like you voted to keep out.


Euro-imperialist windbags


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 28, 2016)

Putting things into perspective, "Hate crime incidents reported to police have reduced following a spike after the EU referendum."



> Following increases in the reporting of hate crime to the True Vision website, the National Police Chiefs' Council requested weekly Hate Crime returns from all forces.
> 
> These original returns have now been updated to include the late reporting of incidents occurring between June 16 - 30 2016 and show 3192 hate crimes were reported to police forces across England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The latest returns from July 1 – 14 2016 show 3001 hate crimes and incidents.  This is a decrease of 191 offences (6 per cent) on the previous fortnight but it is a 20 per cent increase on the equivalent period in 2015.
> 
> As with the previous two week period, the main type of offence seen during this period is violence against the person, which is primarily harassment, common assault and other violence (verbal abuse, spitting and ‘barging’). The second and third most prevalent incidents were public order offences, followed by criminal damage.



No doubt there was a spike in hate crimes  due to the rhetoric of the leave campaign, and that the numbers have since settled down slightly. What's more worrying though is the longer term upwards trend that can be seen over a number of years, and that the June/July 2016 figures we have heard so much about recently are a continuation of that trend. Maybe people like Xenonxenon would like to comment on that, rather than cynically using a serious issue as a political football because he/she is sore about the referendum result.

Some actual data taken from here and here.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 28, 2016)

I'd also add that we won't know for certain how out-of-trend the June/July figures actually are until the Home Office release their yearly report around October. I suspect the 'brexit effect' will be a tiny blip compared to the overall increase in recent years.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 28, 2016)

Xenonxenon said:


> Yeah the ones here do. Easy to see from what they say. Basically `suck it up foreign types it's just a slap`. Not you so much, from what I can see of you, to be fair. You've got some non-wasp in you i bet. Your friends though, keep an eye on them.



The ones where? if you live in some shithole like Buttfuck on Sea (AKA Clapton), I can see you might have the beginnings of a point, but otherwise, you're talking out of your obviously capacious arse.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh ViolentPanda, but keep your enemies closer



I do.

Mostly under the floorboards.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I do.
> 
> Mostly under the floorboards.


the patio full then


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> the patio full then



Long ago, as is the attic.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 28, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'd also add that we won't know for certain how out-of-trend the June/July figures actually are until the Home Office release their yearly report around October. I suspect the 'brexit effect' will be a tiny blip compared to the overall increase in recent years.



The crime survey figures show falling hate crimes, alongside a general overall fall in crime, I posted about it here



> However, there was a statistically significant fall16 in the number of hate crime incidents from 307,000 in the combined 2007/08 and 2008/09 CSEW to 222,000 in the combined 2012/13 to 2014/15 CSEW (a fall of 28% between these combined surveys). Over the same time period, there was a similar percentage fall (25%) in crime overall in the CSEW, from 10,063,000 incidents in the combined 2007/08 and 2008/09 CSEW to 7,530,000 in the combined 2012/13 to 2014/15 CSEW (Table 4.01)., The CSEW suggests, therefore, that hate crime has fallen at a similar rate to overall CSEW crime over this period.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 28, 2016)

Falling from 2009 to 2011, staying steady for a while and rising from 2013 until now. According to the stats I came across at least.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 28, 2016)

Although that covers racism and not hate crime in general.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 28, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Although that covers racism and not hate crime in general.



thats crime reported to police, the Crime Survey of England and Wales is what it says, a survey, but it is a designated national statistic and more likely to reflect the true figures as many crimes aren't reported, smallish sample though when it comes to hate crime.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 28, 2016)

smokedout said:


> thats crime reported to police, the Crime Survey of England and Wales is what it says, a survey, but it is a designated national statistic and more likely to reflect the true figures as many crimes aren't reported, smallish sample though when it comes to hate crime.



So if the survey data is falling but the recorded figures rising I presume the police are doing a better job at dealing with hate crime? Or is that too optimistic?


----------



## BigTom (Jul 28, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> So if the survey data is falling but the recorded figures rising I presume the police are doing a better job at dealing with hate crime? Or is that too optimistic?



No - it means that people are reporting more of the crimes to the police. The survey data is probably best indicator of the actual level of crime as it asks people if they've been a victim of crime (whether reported or not) and then statistically extrapolates from that, whilst the police numbers are only what is reported to them.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 3, 2016)

The very worrying development in areas that voted Leave / Police statistics show hate crimes to have tripled in some of the most Eurosceptic parts of Britain
Places that had most Leave voters have seen the most hate crime since EU referendum


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 3, 2016)

Acchhh. I wish this stuff were reported better. What about areas with a strong vote to remain? What are their numbers? Some will be quite up, I would have thought.

And many of these will be small numbers increasing, meaning a larger percentage to report. Where are the overall numbers, and their increase and the areas with strong remain also reporting increases? What was Lincolnshire compared to London before, for instance? I'd be very surprised if more hate crimes had been reported per person in Lincolnshire than London before brexit. 

Not good. There's not enough information in those reports. And if they have a good case, that's doubly a shame. Shame on them for reporting it so badly. 

I don't doubt that hate crime is on the up, but this is not the way to report it.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Acchhh. I wish this stuff were reported better. What about areas with a strong vote to remain? What are their numbers? Some will be quite up, I would have thought.
> 
> And many of these will be small numbers increasing, meaning a larger percentage to report. Where are the overall numbers, and their increase and the areas with strong remain also reporting increases? What was Lincolnshire compared to London before, for instance? I'd be very surprised if more hate crimes had been reported per person in Lincolnshire than London before brexit.
> 
> ...


yeah looked for a better source, but the indy seem to have done the research so couldnt see anwyhere else to go


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 3, 2016)

ska invita said:


> yeah looked for a better source, but the indy seem to have done the research so couldnt see anwyhere else to go


And they're clearly and crudely biased. It's a shame because the real story here is horrible enough and needs to be told. But many sources are trying to drive the remain/brexit wedge. 

This referendum has only spawned bad things as far as I can tell. The only succour is being drawn by 'post-state' right-wingers who think that the idea of guarantees to people from states is a thing of the past. The UK is leading the way in becoming the post-welfare-state state.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Aug 8, 2016)

The guardian gave some stats, but this article was 11th July: Police blame worst rise in recorded hate crime on EU referendum.

"Police said 3,076 hate crimes and incidents were reported to forces across the UK between 16 and 30 June... increase of 915" (but also says only 1 in 4 incidents are usually reported). Largest increase looks to be in London. However it also says (bear in mind this was 11th July) "the number of reports had fallen in recent days and was returning to what police were used to". I think we need to get July figures to see if that was true or not. 

Anecdotally I think we are all clear there has been some spike in comments made, my friend had a racist comment made to him on the tube which hasn't happened to him before (though the drunk guy's own mates apologised for him and S wasn't bothered enough to report it). Hopefully it will reduce further once people realise it is no more acceptable than it ever was. How long that will take and how much damage is caused first is the main worry.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Aug 8, 2016)

Ah hang on, BBC has stats for full month: Hate crime 'still far too high' post-Brexit - police - BBC News. Had spiked 42%, but still 20% up on last year, 6000 reports in a month.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 31, 2016)

RIP 
Six teenage boys arrested over death of Polish man in Essex
During an emotional visit on Tuesday to the scene of the attack, Jóźwik’s brother, Radek, spoke of how there had been a surge in hatred towards eastern Europeans after Britain’s vote to leave the European Union. He said he been told by police that the attack happened after they heard him and his friends speaking the Polish language.

“He was standing eating pizza and they picked on him because of that. He does not speak much English. The young teenagers are so aggressive.

“Parents need to speak with their children – they are out of control. One of the teenagers started and then seconds later there are 10 or 12 people attacking him.

“After the Brexit vote it has got worse – I have seen people change – it is hard at the moment.”

Four 15-year-old boys and one 16-year-old boy, all from Harlow, were arrested on Monday on suspicion of attempted murder and then arrested on suspicion of murder. All five have been bailed until 7 October pending further inquiries. A sixth boy, a 15-year-old from Harlow, was arrested on Tuesday afternoon on suspicion of murder and is awaiting questioning.
............................
Some residents have said the attack was not the first instance of physical violence against Polish people in Harlow since the Brexit vote.

Polish journalists said that they had spoken to a number of people who said two Polish men were taken to hospital several weeks ago following an attack in a street near to where Jóźwik was assaulted.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 31, 2016)

ska invita said:


> RIP
> Six teenage boys arrested over death of Polish man in Essex
> During an emotional visit on Tuesday to the scene of the attack, Jóźwik’s brother, Radek, spoke of how there had been a surge in hatred towards eastern Europeans after Britain’s vote to leave the European Union. He said he been told by police that the attack happened after they heard him and his friends speaking the Polish language.
> 
> ...


----------



## Celyn (Aug 31, 2016)

I would almost prefer it had there been one killer. OBVIOUSLY, I'd prefer there to have been no killing at all. But I mean the idea of one racist bastard murderer being around is less alarming than the idea that a gang of half a dozen little bastards who should have been in doing their school homework feel fine about attacking and killing anyone they don't like the look (or, in this case, sound) of.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 31, 2016)

ska invita said:


> RIP
> Six teenage boys arrested over death of Polish man in Essex
> During an emotional visit on Tuesday to the scene of the attack, Jóźwik’s brother, Radek, spoke of how there had been a surge in hatred towards eastern Europeans after Britain’s vote to leave the European Union. He said he been told by police that the attack happened after they heard him and his friends speaking the Polish language.
> 
> ...


Also from that article:



> A UN organisation said last week that British politicians had helped fuel a steep rise in racist hate crimes during and after the referendum campaign. Thecommittee on the elimination of racial discrimination said many prominent politicians should share the blame for the outbreak of xenophobia and intimidation against ethnic minorities.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2016)

Celyn said:


> I would almost prefer it had there been one killer. OBVIOUSLY, I'd prefer there to have been no killing at all. But I mean the idea of one racist bastard murderer being around is less alarming than the idea that a gang of half a dozen little bastards who should have been in doing their school homework feel fine about attacking and killing anyone they don't like the look (or, in this case, sound) of.


it's the summer holidays. there is no school homework.


----------



## gosub (Aug 31, 2016)

ska invita said:


> RIP
> Six teenage boys arrested over death of Polish man in Essex
> During an emotional visit on Tuesday to the scene of the attack, Jóźwik’s brother, Radek, spoke of how there had been a surge in hatred towards eastern Europeans after Britain’s vote to leave the European Union. He said he been told by police that the attack happened after they heard him and his friends speaking the Polish language.
> 
> ...


Grim. 

RIP


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2016)

Celyn said:


> I would almost prefer it had there been one killer. OBVIOUSLY, I'd prefer there to have been no killing at all. But I mean the idea of one racist bastard murderer being around is less alarming than the idea that a gang of half a dozen little bastards who should have been in doing their school homework feel fine about attacking and killing anyone they don't like the look (or, in this case, sound) of.


Reminiscent of the Stephen Lawrence murder. That was marked by a shared culture of hatred too. There exist pockets of evil within our society.


----------



## Celyn (Aug 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> it's the summer holidays. there is no school homework.


Oops.    I forgot England was a bit behind in these things.    Well, they should be doing some innocent schoolkiddy thing like underage drinking or any drugs they can get hold of, anything that isn't murder, really.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 31, 2016)

Can anyone find details about the march on Saturday... Times, where it starts.... Am on a phone and can't manage it


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Oops.    I forgot England was a bit behind in these things.    Well, they should be doing some innocent schoolkiddy thing like underage drinking or any drugs they can get hold of, anything that isn't murder, really.


whatever happened to teenage pregnancies?


----------



## gosub (Aug 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> whatever happened to teenage pregnancies?



Social media educated the parts other efforts couldn't reach


----------



## existentialist (Aug 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> whatever happened to teenage pregnancies?


It was never the problem those whose interests were best served by a moral panic made it out to be. That was Thatcherite Tories' version of today's "feckless workshy" debâcle.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 31, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Can anyone find details about the march on Saturday... Times, where it starts.... Am on a phone and can't manage it


Ah seems someone is doing something tonight


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Ah seems theyre doing something tonight



what's the saturday thing then?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> what's the saturday thing then?


it was mentioend thered be a silent march on Saturday...cant find any concrete info on it, even in the polish press. May not happen i guess


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2016)

Welll the march of silence happened then 

"An attack on two Polish men hours after a remembrance march for one of their compatriots who was murdered in the same town is being investigated as a potential hate crime.

One of the men suffered a cut to his head and the other had his nose broken in an assault by a group of four of five men at about 3.30am in Harlow, Essex, on Sunday."


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 4, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Welll the march of silence happened then
> 
> "An attack on two Polish men hours after a remembrance march for one of their compatriots who was murdered in the same town is being investigated as a potential hate crime.
> 
> One of the men suffered a cut to his head and the other had his nose broken in an assault by a group of four of five men at about 3.30am in Harlow, Essex, on Sunday."


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2016)

This is supposedly a photo from the front of the silent march






I think its a shame they rallied behind Polish flags...theres been a lot of flag flying since the fall of communism in poland, but this gives off the impression of a clash of nations...I wish there were a more diverse anti-racist campaign kicking in over this...anti-racism should be all inclusive and i find it a shame somewhat that at present, in this case, its appears to be so nationalised. Nationalism is a big part of the problem.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2016)

BTW I dont blame them for doing so...it would be nice to see other groups reaching out in solidarity and walking together...this wont be the last time so this may well still happen


----------



## J Ed (Sep 4, 2016)

ska invita said:


> BTW I dont blame them for doing so...it would be nice to see other groups reaching out in solidarity and walking together...this wont be the last time so this may well still happen



Some of the people walking behind or with the Polish flags might not be Polish, we don't know.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Some of the people walking behind or with the Polish flags might not be Polish, we don't know.


sure, but it would be nice if the front of march said A UNITED FUCK OFF TO RACISM  as opposed to having flags which might antagonise racist/xenophobe thugs


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 4, 2016)

ska invita said:


> BTW I dont blame them for doing so...it would be nice to see other groups reaching out in solidarity and walking together...this wont be the last time so this may well still happen




I am with you on this one, as you know I am not a flag waving type in any shape or form but can see why they have chosen to highlight their background.  Polish people have taken and continue to take a lot of stick and abuse.

Ideally yes, there would have been lots of different flags and whatnot on the march, that is much more a sign of unity. Not sure who organised the march, perhaps that is the key thing here... how much are the polish community integrating or being integrated with generally and specifically in Harlow? Solidarity can't be offered or received if there are no connections, opportunities to do so.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 4, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Some of the people walking behind or with the Polish flags might not be Polish, we don't know.



Fair point.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Polish people have taken and continue to take a lot of stick and abuse.


PArticularly in the last 100 years or so....


Rutita1 said:


> Ideally yes, there would have been lots of different flags and whatnot on the march, that is much more a sign of unity. Not sure who organised the march, perhaps that is the key thing here... how much are the polish community integrating or being integrated with generally and specifically in Harlow? Solidarity can't be offered or received if there are no connections, opportunities to do so.


Id expect it was knocked together quickly by local residents, and so wasnt massively thought out - a quick reaction.

I guess the SWP-front anti-racism campaigns wont get involved as SWP line is firmly pro-Brexit and this just tarnishes that side of their daydream pathetic plans


----------



## J Ed (Sep 4, 2016)

I was round my mum's a couple of days ago and caught a few minutes of the Wright Stuff when she was watching it. They had Lee Hurst on and he was all but justifying the attack on the basis of 'young men always stick together in their own groups', fucking infuriating. I had forgotten about it but this thread had reminded me so I went to have a look at his twitter and here is doing the same thing again more or less, downplaying attacks.



He wasn't brought up on it either.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 4, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I was round my mum's a couple of days ago and caught a few minutes of the Wright Stuff when she was watching it. They had Lee Hurst on and he was all but justifying the attack on the basis of 'young men always stick together in their own groups', fucking infuriating. I had forgotten about it but this thread had reminded me so I went to have a look at his twitter and here is doing the same thing again more or less, downplaying attacks.
> 
> 
> 
> He wasn't brought up on it either.




Lee would not use the same logic if the attack were to have been a group of Polish lads on a couple of English/British men. I know this for sure. I have explored, thought about and directly dealt with these double standards and excuses for as long as I remember 'thinking' about the world and people around me. Fuck him.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> PArticularly in the last 100 years or so....
> 
> Id expect it was knocked together quickly by local residents, and so wasnt massively thought out - a quick reaction.
> 
> I guess the SWP-front anti-racism campaigns wont get involved as SWP line is firmly pro-Brexit and this just tarnishes that side of their daydream pathetic plans




Start of the March here.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Start of the March here.



Thanks for posting it.... So yeah, even more flags at the back and no other messages that I could see...


----------



## ska invita (Sep 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I was round my mum's a couple of days ago and caught a few minutes of the Wright Stuff when she was watching it. They had Lee Hurst on and he was all but justifying the attack on the basis of 'young men always stick together in their own groups', fucking infuriating. I had forgotten about it but this thread had reminded me so I went to have a look at his twitter and here is doing the same thing again more or less, downplaying attacks.
> 
> 
> 
> He wasn't brought up on it either.



I agree only to the extent that I would like to see solidarity actions that were significantly broader than national groups on their own (I'm sure there were some nonPoles there too, but not many tbh).

I did read somewhere that there is a perception amongst "parts of the black community" that Poles are racists, a perception which blocks solidarity. No idea how true that is... Can't remember where I read it now.

Polish is now the Uks second language and Poles are the largest migrant nationality in the Uk...


----------



## bimble (Sep 5, 2016)

I don't think there's a problem with observing that there's a strong vein of nationalism in Poland itself, the government they voted in last year is clearly anti immigration homophobic anti abortion etc. Anyway, that silent march seems to have been about paying respect to the murdered man more than about some general anti-racism statement?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Thanks for posting it.... So yeah, even more flags at the back and no other messages that I could see...




This just appeared too.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 5, 2016)

Out of interest what are the main anti-racism existing campaigns out there?
SWP isnt involved in this are they?
Stand Up To Racism - Committed to standing up to racism

SWP ones are these right? Anti-Racist Groups and Campaign Links | Socialist Workers Party - an anti-capitalist, revolutionary party


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 5, 2016)

The first is the SWP front. The second is just a list. Including some defunct SWP fronts.


----------



## emanymton (Sep 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The first is the SWP front. The second is just a list. Including some defunct SWP fronts.


Is it, I thought the SWP were just UAF? Not sure what the point of this is anyway.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 5, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Is it, I thought the SWP were just UAF? Not sure what the point of this is anyway.


UAF been quietly sidelined for this. This is full get establishment figures on board style. Non-shouty. Even pretend shouty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> UAF been quietly sidelined for this. This is full get establishment figures on board style. Non-shouty. Even pretend shouty.


Yeh. But being as it was the establishment got us into this mess I am less than confident they will extricate us from it.


----------



## emanymton (Sep 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> UAF been quietly sidelined for this. This is full get establishment figures on board style. Non-shouty. Even pretend shouty.


The whole point of UAF was to go beyond the ranks of the old ANL and be a bit more 'respectable' and get establishment figures on board. I guess now the UAF has dwindled somewhat, it's time to pull the same trick again?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 5, 2016)

emanymton said:


> The whole point of UAF was to go beyond the ranks of the old ANL and be a bit more 'respectable' and get establishment figures on board. I guess now the UAF has dwindled somewhat, it's time to pull the same trick again?


Well, it's also to tie into the Corbyn stuff -  he's actually the main speaker at a event coming up quite soon - and then to anything that comes out of that. And, of course, after the rape cover up UAF was probably too tainted to continue properly - at least as a recruitment path into the party for the young.


----------



## Xenonxenon (Sep 5, 2016)

"the poles here can mostly look after themselves physically"


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 5, 2016)

Xenonxenon said:


> "the poles here can mostly look after themselves physically"


Unless you have any wider knowledge of fishponds and eastville? Do you?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 5, 2016)

Xenonxenon said:


> "the poles here can mostly look after themselves physically"


Do please outline why knowing polish people who will fight back against racist attacks is a problem for you.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2016)

Polish Embassy Describes Post-Brexit Hate Crimes Their Citizens Have Faced Ahead Of Meeting With Boris Johnson And Amber Rudd


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2016)

.


----------



## Xenonxenon (Sep 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Polish Embassy Describes Post-Brexit Hate Crimes Their Citizens Have Faced Ahead Of Meeting With Boris Johnson And Amber Rudd


Yeah but it would have been worse in the 1980s and was it really a paintbrush and what does OWP mean and anyway the blacks/poles/jews can look after themselves physically. Apart from the dead one.


----------



## inva (Sep 7, 2016)

Xenonxenon said:


> Yeah but it would have been worse in the 1980s and was it really a paintbrush and what does OWP mean and anyway the blacks/poles/jews can look after themselves physically. Apart from the dead one.


you're a bit weird


----------



## baffled (Sep 7, 2016)

q


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2016)

baffled said:


> q


Que?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 8, 2016)

inva said:


> you're a bit weird



He's not at all weird. He's merely a cunt.


----------



## gosub (Sep 12, 2016)

Polish man assaulted by gang of 20 men in 'racially motivated' attack


----------



## ska invita (Sep 12, 2016)

gosub said:


> Polish man assaulted by gang of 20 men in 'racially motivated' attack


fucking hell... set on by 20....lucky to be alive


----------



## ska invita (Sep 13, 2016)

Harlow sounds grizzley 
The killing of a Polish man shook the town of Harlow – could more trouble be coming?

journo goes to report, gets repeatedly racially abused on the one day hes there


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 13, 2016)

gosub said:


> Polish man assaulted by gang of 20 men in 'racially motivated' attack


----------



## ska invita (Sep 13, 2016)




----------



## Celyn (Sep 14, 2016)

Scary bad stuff.


----------



## CRI (Sep 14, 2016)

Pregnant Woman Loses Baby After Racist Attack in Milton Keynes


----------



## teqniq (Sep 14, 2016)

Police find man who 'kicked pregnant woman in the stomach so hard she lost baby in racist attack'


----------



## two sheds (Sep 14, 2016)

Lets hope it's a murder charge then.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 14, 2016)

Says racially aggravated assault in the piece, but yeah murder would be appropriate imo. In any event if they've got the right guy I really hope he does time over it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 14, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Lets hope it's a murder charge then.


Don't think it's a murder charge, but there is a charge for deliberately killing an unborn child. And the penalty is a life sentence.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 14, 2016)

Sounds fair - although I suppose the question is going to be whether he killed him/her deliberately, as with a murder charge.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 14, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Sounds fair - although I suppose the question is going to be whether he killed him/her deliberately, as with a murder charge.


If he knew she was pregnant and kicked her in the stomach, that strikes me as already enough to show it was deliberate.

Don't think you can avoid a murder conviction by claiming you stabbed someone but weren't intending to kill them - I aimed to miss the heart... This seems about equivalent.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2016)

The article doesn't say how far along she was in her pregnancy so that will surely have a bearing on whether he knew or not.

Regardless, a grade A cunt who followed her out of the shop after she ignored his initial racial abuse. He was clearly looking for a victim.


----------



## belboid (Sep 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If he knew she was pregnant and kicked her in the stomach, that strikes me as already enough to show it was deliberate.
> 
> Don't think you can avoid a murder conviction by claiming you stabbed someone but weren't intending to kill them - I aimed to miss the heart... This seems about equivalent.


Firstly, you can do so, it becomes manslaughter. Secondly, a murder (or manslaughter) charge would mean abortion became illegal. It's 'child destruction' - tho it's very hard to prove apparently- 

"If an attacker's intention was to harm an unborn baby rather than kill it, or if they wanted to hurt or kill its mother, the law doesn't recognise any offence against the unborn child." (from the Beeb)


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 16, 2016)

Warsaw police on patrol in Essex after Polish man killed in ‘hate crime’


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Warsaw police on patrol in Essex after Polish man killed in ‘hate crime’


Coming over here, patrolling our streets...


----------



## infide1castr0 (Sep 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Warsaw police on patrol in Essex after Polish man killed in ‘hate crime’


How much jurisdiction are Polish police allowed to exercise in UK/England/Essex?  Or is this more of a symbolic move by Warsaw?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 17, 2016)

infide1castr0 said:


> How much jurisdiction are Polish police allowed to exercise in UK/England/Essex?  Or is this more of a symbolic move by Warsaw?



Police exchanges like this have been going on between EU countries for years. It's just a way of creating contacts between the police forces in different countries and giving trainee officers an opportunity to work in a range of different environments. There is no jurisdictional power as they are guests. 

The RT article doesn't mention this context of course, as it's not as sensationalist as imagining there has been a crack team of Polish law enforcers parachuted into Essex to fight off the fascist hoards.


----------



## infide1castr0 (Sep 17, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Police exchanges like this have been going on between EU countries for years. It's just a way of creating contacts between the police forces in different countries and giving trainee officers an opportunity to work in a range of different environments. There is no jurisdictional power as they are guests.
> 
> The RT article doesn't mention this context of course, as it's not as sensationalist as imagining there has been a crack team of Polish law enforcers parachuted into Essex to fight off the fascist hoards.



Fascinating, I had no idea this programme existed, especially not for some time as well...  Shame that sensationalism is the language of journalism these days, this has more of a story behind it in my opinion, something that reminds you that societies have to function and coexist in many real ways, not just be assumed as stable.

Cheers for the insight.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If he knew she was pregnant and kicked her in the stomach, that strikes me as already enough to show it was deliberate.
> 
> Don't think you can avoid a murder conviction by claiming you stabbed someone but weren't intending to kill them - I aimed to miss the heart... This seems about equivalent.


I don't think it is quite equivalent, because for murder you need the intent to kill *or do grievous bodily harm*.  Whereas for child desruction, there must be the intention to kill the foetus. That's not to say that if the death wasn't almost inevitable, a court could infer oblique intention. But that would be more difficult, and turn on whether or not be realised she was pregnant etc. 

But, a far bigger issue is that child desruction only applies to viable foetuses, so wouldn't be a possible charge unless it was late in the pregnancy.  Strangely, if the child has been born alive but later died as a result of the attack, it'd probably be manslaughter.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 17, 2016)

Student stabbed in neck with smashed bottle 'for speaking Polish'


----------



## ska invita (Sep 17, 2016)

another lucky to tell the tale... so easily could have died if that cut an artery

i cant see any end to this....in fact it seems to be snowballing.

considering polish is the second language of the uk, and poles the biggest migrant population, thats a lot of people now scared for their lives to speak in public


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 17, 2016)

The reporting of the attack on the pregnant woman and her husband in Bletchley has been pretty terrible. Here's the Times version which gives a great deal more detail


Spoiler: Text of story



*Expectant mother lost twins after ‘racially motivated’ car park attack*

Fariha Karim | John Simpson, Crime Correspondent
September 15 2016, 12:01am, The Times

A Somalian woman who was kicked and punched in her stomach in a supermarket car park lost twins after the alleged racially aggravated attack, according to community leaders.

The 34-year-old woman, who has three children, is a Muslim and wears a headscarf. She was said to have been two weeks pregnant when she was approached by a man who allegedly began racially abusing her and calling her a “terrorist” inside the Co-op store in Bletchley, Milton Keynes. The man followed the mother to her car and allegedly beat her up. Her 40-year-old husband was also said to have been attacked with a bottle and a bag of ice.

The woman and her family have asked not to be named, having lived in fear of retaliation over the past month, friends say.

Yesterday, as a 37-year-old man was arrested on suspicion of racially aggravated assault, community leaders criticised the response of Thames Valley police. The force released a CCTV image of a suspect on Tuesday, more than a month after the attack, on August 6.

Within hours, neighbours of David Gallacher, of Bletchley, reported him to the police, with one resident, Zoe Jayne, posting his details on social media. He is in custody.

A Nisa convenience store, opposite where the woman was assaulted, said that it had had clear CCTV footage of the incident, but that it was automatically wiped after 30 days and police had not asked to see it.

The attack took place within sight of a mosque that was firebombed, had a pig’s head thrown on the roof and was the target of attacks by the far right, including the British National Party and the English Defence League, after its conversion from a pub three years ago.

Mohammed Khan, a councillor for Bletchley East, said that racial tensions in Milton Keynes had risen after the EU referendum result in June.

He said that after the couple were attacked they had to wait an hour for an ambulance.

“When she eventually arrived at [Milton Keynes general] hospital, she had to wait two or three hours before a surgeon would see her.”

He said that a scan taken just over a week after her admittance to hospital had revealed signs of two unborn children. However, she went to see her GP days after the scan because she had been bleeding and the GP confirmed that she was no longer pregnant.

Mr Khan added that despite what she had been through, the mother was “bearing up”.

Thames Valley police said that the timing of their response was governed by when they had been able to acquire and view security camera footage. A spokeswoman said this could often take time, which delayed release of the images to the media. “Thankfully in this investigation Thames Valley police officers managed to obtain good quality CCTV which we were able to publish as an appeal this week.

“As a result of this appeal a 37-year-old man from Milton Keynes was arrested on suspicion of racially aggravated assault.” Milton Keynes general hospital said that it would not comment on individual cases.



She was apparently two weeks pregnant with twins, and although it's not entirely clear from this report, it may be that she only discovered this after she was admitted to hospital following the attack. 



> He said that a scan taken just over a week after her admittance to hospital had revealed signs of two unborn children. However, she went to see her GP days after the scan because she had been bleeding and the GP confirmed that she was no longer pregnant.



As the report states it was over a month before the Police released stills from the CCTV footage of the attack. (I wonder if they only got around to doing so because by then she had lost the twins). The cunt who has been arrested was identified within hours.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 17, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Police exchanges like this have been going on between EU countries for years. It's just a way of creating contacts between the police forces in different countries and giving trainee officers an opportunity to work in a range of different environments. There is no jurisdictional power as they are guests.
> 
> The RT article doesn't mention this context of course, as it's not as sensationalist as imagining there has been a crack team of Polish law enforcers parachuted into Essex to fight off the fascist hoards.





Did you even read the article? Far from being sensationalist and implying that _'there has been a crack team of Polish law enforcers parachuted into Essex to fight off the fascist hoards._' as you put it it was very clear about the role of these officers would be... It also mentions another two that are on the very programme/context you state it didn't mention 



> The Polish officers, second lieutenant Bartosz Czernicki and chief sergeant Dariusz Tybura, who arrived on Wednesday, will be in uniform but will not have any formal police powers.
> 
> A spokesperson for the Polish embassy in London says the move is designed to ease community tensions and reassure Poles.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2016)

Hoards never fight. 


ItWillNeverWork said:


> Police exchanges like this have been going on between EU countries for years. It's just a way of creating contacts between the police forces in different countries and giving trainee officers an opportunity to work in a range of different environments. There is no jurisdictional power as they are guests.
> 
> The RT article doesn't mention this context of course, as it's not as sensationalist as imagining there has been a crack team of Polish law enforcers parachuted into Essex to fight off the fascist hoards.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 17, 2016)

still got to say withstanding  all the stalling of the section,


immigration control still appears to be the main narrative..


so much for the 

"I voted but it's not about immigration.. its about sovereignty line"...


----------



## existentialist (Sep 17, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> still got to say withstanding  all the stalling of the section,
> 
> 
> immigration control still appears to be the main narrative..
> ...


I think that, in the minds of these people, sovereignty *is *about immigration


----------



## infide1castr0 (Sep 17, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Did you even read the article? Far from being sensationalist and implying that _'there has been a crack team of Polish law enforcers parachuted into Essex to fight off the fascist hoards._' as you put it it was very clear about the role of these officers would be... It also mentions another two that are on the very programme/context you state it didn't mention


I think that what ItWillNeverWork was trying to say was that the article didn't normalize a police exchange like this, it reads as though this is a scared response to these attacks.  With calls that the EU does not have enough union sounding as though it can't get its own problems sorted out.  Just my view, though.


----------



## infide1castr0 (Sep 17, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I think that, in the minds of these people, sovereignty *is *about immigration


^
And more so just _receiving _immigration.  Visa-free travel for Brits seems to be expected by a lot of Leave voters


----------



## gosub (Sep 18, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> still got to say withstanding  all the stalling of the section,
> 
> 
> immigration control still appears to be the main narrative..
> ...


The UKIP lot, what did you expect, though their membership has fallen considerably, of the tories, well they may be vocal but their is only six of them.  


Don't trigger Article 50 until 1/6/17.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> The UKIP lot, what did you expect, though their membership has fallen considerably, of the tories, well they may be vocal but their is only six of them.
> 
> 
> Don't trigger Article 50 until 1/6/17.


They don't need membership. They haven'y gone away


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 18, 2016)

Ax^ said:


> still got to say withstanding  all the stalling of the section,
> 
> 
> immigration control still appears to be the main narrative..
> ...


I'm not sure if you can seperate sovereignty from controlling your own borders ?


----------



## Mr Smin (Sep 18, 2016)

infide1castr0 said:


> ^
> And more so just _receiving _immigration.  Visa-free travel for Brits seems to be expected by a lot of Leave voters


Travel and immigration are different things. When I visit the Philippines I just show up at border control, tell them I'm planning to stay 2 weeks and they stamp my passport. If I told them I plan to stay indefinitely the process is a bit more complicated.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 18, 2016)

EUKIP borders. Try it non EU.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 20, 2016)

heard that there was a small but "made themselves present" polish far right contingent on the Harlow march...in the absence of a united multicultural response to this shit the far right are best positioned to profit from this...on both the Polish and British side

Stand up to Racism have their annual conference in a couple of weeks

<shame to see no Polish/eastern european speakers invited, though there is a session somewhere in amongst it on  "Brexit: Defend Migrant Rights & freedom of movement" tbf

seems like Stand UP is  the only game in town on this atm (and as i said upthread im dubious of their swp position on this)


----------



## infide1castr0 (Sep 20, 2016)

ska invita said:


> heard that there was a small but "made themselves present" polish far right contingent on the Harlow march...in the absence of a united multicultural response to this shit the far right are best positioned to profit from this...on both the Polish and British side
> 
> Stand up to Racism have their annual conference in a couple of weeks
> 
> ...



That looks excellent, I didn't know they had a national conference (then again I didn't know much about them at all).  Shame I won't be in London until a few days after, is anyone here planning on going? 

And yes it does seem to be a shame about the lack of Eastern European speakers invited, I wonder if there will be any protests outside of the event.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 21, 2016)

UK student stabbed in the neck for speaking Polish speaks out


----------



## ska invita (Oct 5, 2016)

Home Secretary Amber Rudd's plans for businesses to publish the amount of "foreign" workers they employ "as a way to encourage them to hire more locals" has made me feel physically sick....utterly racist, divisive and legitimising foreigner hatred.

Perhaps foreign workers could be made to wear some kind of badge to make it clearer to us all?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 5, 2016)

Bit like Brown's British jobs for British people nonsense, I doubt this will go anywhere. But indicative of the mess the Tories are in atm. They have decided that the referendum was basically all about immigration, which for many people it probably was.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Perhaps foreign workers could be made to wear some kind of badge to make it clearer to us all?



Starting with this Yankee perhaps?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Home Secretary Amber Rudd's plans for businesses to publish the amount of "foreign" workers they employ "as a way to encourage them to hire more locals" has made me feel physically sick....utterly racist, divisive and legitimising foreigner hatred.
> 
> Perhaps foreign workers could be made to wear some kind of badge to make it clearer to us all?


maybe they could all stay in camps. like butlins, or something.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 5, 2016)




----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2016)

saved for posterity


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


>


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Home Secretary Amber Rudd's plans for businesses to publish the amount of "foreign" workers they employ "as a way to encourage them to hire more locals" has made me feel physically sick....utterly racist, divisive and legitimising foreigner hatred.
> 
> Perhaps foreign workers could be made to wear some kind of badge to make it clearer to us all?



That's one of the stupidest policies I've ever heard, it sounds like something the BNP would come up with, what the fuck kind of a country is Britain turning into? I hope every foreign worker that Rudd encounters refuses to have anything to do with her...


----------



## SE25 (Oct 6, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Home Secretary Amber Rudd's plans for businesses to publish the amount of "foreign" workers they employ "as a way to encourage them to hire more locals" has made me feel physically sick....utterly racist, divisive and legitimising foreigner hatred.
> 
> Perhaps foreign workers could be made to wear some kind of badge to make it clearer to us all?



the Vermin have shown themselves properly in the past few days. People actually vote for these as well...


----------



## J Ed (Oct 10, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


>




Straight out of Nazi and Stalinist tropes about Rootless Cosmopolitans


----------



## bimble (Oct 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Straight out of Nazi and Stalinist tropes about Rootless Cosmopolitans


Someone on twitter is making CITIZEN OF NOWHERE badges, I'm on the waiting list.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 10, 2016)

bimble said:


> Someone on twitter is making CITIZEN OF NOWHERE badges, I'm on the waiting list.



bit emo tho isn't it


----------



## bimble (Oct 10, 2016)

It's kind of goth, black with spindly white capitals.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2016)

bimble said:


> Someone on twitter is making CITIZEN OF NOWHERE badges, I'm on the waiting list.


Thought your handicraft skills up to making your own badge.


----------



## bimble (Oct 10, 2016)

You need a special kit to make badges. I could do teeshirts though.

It really was a stunning thing for the PM of the UK to say, in 2016,
* "If you think you're a citizen of the world you're a citizen of nowhere".*

I think it was Nelson Mandela said we are citizens of the world, silly old him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2016)

bimble said:


> You need a special kit to make badges. I could do teeshirts though.


You need a) another badge; b) some sticky back plastic; c) glue; d) a sheet of a4 and e) a pen. And f) a small safety pin. Draw five or six circles using the badge as a template. Cut these out. Glue two together, and pierce with the safety pin. This will be the back. Glue 3 more together. Write your message on the front. Over the slogan stick the sticky back plastic. Trim as necessary. Then glue these three to the 2. Voila, one badge.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> You need a) another badge; b) some sticky back plastic; c) glue; d) a sheet of a4 and e) a pen. And f) a small safety pin. Draw five or six circles using the badge as a template. Cut these out. Glue two together, and pierce with the safety pin. This will be the back. Glue 3 more together. Write your message on the front. Over the slogan stick the sticky back plastic. Trim as necessary. Then glue these three to the 2. Voila, one badge.


bimble if you get that Velcro tape and cut a circle of that, if would work better on jumpers or scarves than a safety pin. You may find this at work, but remember not to ask your manager, just look in the stationery cupboard.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> You need a) another badge; b) some sticky back plastic; c) glue; d) a sheet of a4 and e) a pen. And f) a small safety pin. Draw five or six circles using the badge as a template. Cut these out. Glue two together, and pierce with the safety pin. This will be the back. Glue 3 more together. Write your message on the front. Over the slogan stick the sticky back plastic. Trim as necessary. Then glue these three to the 2. Voila, one badge.


... and here is one i made earlier ...


----------



## bimble (Oct 10, 2016)

Thank you Pickman's model .
I had no idea you were so crafty.
I'm tempted nonetheless to look towards the Tshirt business for my share of the CITIZEN OF NOWHERE market because after all is said and done,  badges are a bit sad.

But seriously, she did say that.

She thinks the referendum on Europe made it a good idea to say such a thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2016)

bimble said:


> Thank you Pickman's model .
> I had no idea you were so crafty.
> I'm tempted nonetheless to look towards the Tshirt business, for my share of the CITIZEN OF NOWHERE market because after all is said and done,  badges are a bit sad.


Screen printing is a piece of piss too


----------



## Dan U (Oct 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> bimble if you get that Velcro tape and cut a circle of that, if would work better on jumpers or scarves than a safety pin. You may find this at work, but remember not to ask your manager, just look in the stationery cupboard.



Ez cath kidston


----------



## bimble (Oct 10, 2016)

Dan U said:


> Ez cath kidston


Fuck off. The CITIZEN OF NOWHERE tshirt does not come in a cute retro floral colourway, sorry.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 10, 2016)

bimble said:


> Thank you Pickman's model .
> I had no idea you were so crafty.


 
PM earlier


----------



## emanymton (Oct 10, 2016)

bimble said:


> You need a special kit to make badges. I could do teeshirts though.
> 
> It really was a stunning thing for the PM of the UK to say, in 2016,
> * "If you think you're a citizen of the world you're a citizen of nowhere".*
> ...


Bit older than that I think.

The Quotations Page: Quote from Socrates


----------



## belboid (Oct 10, 2016)

bimble said:


> Someone on twitter is making CITIZEN OF NOWHERE badges, I'm on the waiting list.


There is a Nowhere Island, some artist chap did for the London Olympiad. My suggestion for the constitution made it onto page 3.


----------



## bimble (Oct 10, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Bit older than that I think.
> 
> The Quotations Page: Quote from Socrates



Socrates, Nelson Mandella, whatever. Idealistic fools, from the olden days.
The people of Britain have spoke.


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 10, 2016)

What did they say?


----------



## bimble (Oct 10, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> What did they say?


The people of Britain said yes to 'leaving the EU'. That is being interpreted by the current administration as they think best.


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 10, 2016)

What's Mandela got to do with my mum?


----------



## bimble (Oct 10, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> What's Mandela got to do with my mum?


I don't know.
What has Nelson Mandella got to do with your mum?


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 10, 2016)

Why mention him?


----------



## bimble (Oct 10, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Why mention him?


Because I thought it was him what first said "We are citizens of the world".
I was wrong, he just borrowed it from Socrates.

Anyway, Mrs May said the other day that "If you think you are a citizen of the world you are a citizen of nowhere" .

So that's the point. She said that because of brexit. It was, I think, a surprising thing to say, and a sad one.


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 10, 2016)

Not simplistic sneering then.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 10, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> What's Mandela got to do with my mum?



OK there is a  backstory  in here somewhere...


spill...


----------



## bimble (Oct 10, 2016)

no. I'm not sneering. I'm a bit scared about the fact that she said it and felt that it was the right thing to say to please the people that she thinks voted leave.
How do you feel about her saying that ?


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 11, 2016)

Such innocence.


----------



## bimble (Oct 12, 2016)

seventh bullet Anyone who expresses any concern about the way in which the current administration is interpreting the referendum result is actually just 'sneering' and calling all leave voters thick racist cunts?
So basically May's and Rudd's recent speeches must not be criticised in any way. Right.


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 12, 2016)

Yep.  Exactly.


----------



## bimble (Oct 12, 2016)

ok.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 12, 2016)

bimble said:


> Because I thought it was him what first said "We are citizens of the world".
> I was wrong, he just borrowed it from Socrates.
> 
> Anyway, Mrs May said the other day that "If you think you are a citizen of the world you are a citizen of nowhere" .
> ...



Parochialism, that's what she's promoting. Insularism is the in thing right now, it seems.


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 12, 2016)

Is it?


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 12, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Is it?



It seems that way to me.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2016)

Sisters yelled 'Poland rule the world' before battering women


----------



## J Ed (Oct 14, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Sisters yelled 'Poland rule the world' before battering women





> When the English girls tried to laugh it off, the Mut sisters - *who moved to Britain with their family under EU freedom of movement laws *- shouted: 'oh do you want the English sl*t b**ches?'



Nice writing here


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Is it?


Complacent to just say 'is it?' A massively depressing poll was posted earlier either on this thread or on another in which people who voted to leave were asked if they would accept a pay cut in order to reduce immigration. Regardless of whether or not they actually would when it comes down to it, more than 60 percent said they would. Only 30 percent said they wouldn't. You, and many other leave supporters on here, are probably in that 30 percent, but if so, you're in a minority, and your voice is not the one that is being listened to. 

It is these kinds of numbers that have driven the govt's response so far - they've been very clear that 'brexit means brexit' means closing previously open borders to reduce immigration. Given that the UK is an island, 'insularism' seems a pretty apt term for such a thing.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Nice writing here


Can't argue with the facts


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2016)

Brexit supporter died hours after being attacked by Remain voter


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Complacent to just say 'is it?' A massively depressing poll was posted earlier either on this thread or on another in which people who voted to leave were asked if they would accept a pay cut in order to reduce immigration. Regardless of whether or not they actually would when it comes down to it, more than 60 percent said they would. Only 30 percent said they wouldn't. You, and many other leave supporters on here, are probably in that 30 percent, but if so, you're in a minority, and your voice is not the one that is being listened to.
> 
> It is these kinds of numbers that have driven the govt's response so far - they've been very clear that 'brexit means brexit' means closing previously open borders to reduce immigration. Given that the UK is an island, 'insularism' seems a pretty apt term for such a thing.



Has there been another poll where immigration was not the top reason for voting to leave?  And what is this 'probably'?  We're all suspect.


----------



## CRI (Oct 14, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Sisters yelled 'Poland rule the world' before battering women



Racist attack?  Uh, no. 

_"Aleksandra Mut, 23, and younger sister Angelika Mut, 20, went berserk after two men they were with began making flirty comments towards the three women at the end of a night out."  _

Women attacking women their dates flirt with isn't very noble, but it's motivated by jealousy, not racism (and probably fueled by plenty alcohol.)  It wouldn't have been racism unless the women they beat up weren't white and the article doesn't say.  There's no such thing as reverse racism, or reverse xenophobia, Chrisake. 




The39thStep said:


> Brexit supporter died hours after being attacked by Remain voter



Brexit was a side issue in a row between two drunken neighbours that escalated. The perp had previous for violence.

_Two neighbours, Keating and Dunn, start arguing in the shared garden of their sheltered accommodation.  First it was about Brexit, then about Keating leaving the taps on and flooding other residents' flats.   Dunn started battering Keating, who later died.

"A pathologist concluded that Mr Keating had died from positional asphyxia and intoxication through consumption of alcohol, methadone and cannabis."

"At the time, Dunn was on bail for smashing up his friend’s flat in Miles Platting with a hammer, before hitting him with it in July 2015. The victim suffered a fractured collarbone, a broken rib, a punctured lung and ‘massive’ bruising."

Dunn, 62, was locked up for four years and five months at Manchester Crown Court after admitting assault occasioning actual bodily harm against Mr Keating.
_


----------



## J Ed (Oct 14, 2016)

CRI said:


> Racist attack?  Uh, no.
> 
> _"Aleksandra Mut, 23, and younger sister Angelika Mut, 20, went berserk after two men they were with began making flirty comments towards the three women at the end of a night out."  _
> 
> Women attacking women their dates flirt with isn't very noble, but it's motivated by jealousy, not racism (and probably fueled by plenty alcohol.)  It wouldn't have been racism unless the women they beat up weren't white and the article doesn't say.  There's no such thing as reverse racism, or reverse xenophobia, Chrisake.



What is it then?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 14, 2016)

What's the point that's being made here?


----------



## CRI (Oct 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What is it then?


Um, I said what it is in the post, "it's motivated by jealousy."  They attacked three women their dates were flirting with.  The salacious headline suggests they just battered some women randomly in a racist attack.  Nasty and not acceptable, but the paper clearly has an agenda trying to make it all about racism, against white English people of course.


----------



## CRI (Oct 14, 2016)

_Hate Crime, England and Wales, 2015/16_


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 14, 2016)

Are there any stats for how many arrests and convictions have been made over this time?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 14, 2016)

CRI said:


> Women attacking women their dates flirt with isn't very noble, but it's motivated by jealousy, not racism (and probably fueled by plenty alcohol.)  *It wouldn't have been racism unless the women they beat up weren't white* and the article doesn't say.  *There's no such thing as reverse racism, or reverse xenophobia, Chrisake*.



Sorry but what the actual fuck?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2016)

It's always tricky with these kinds of stats. Recorded racist crimes have gone up every year in the period covered. Does that mean there have been more racist attacks over that period? Probably not, tbh - just either that more attacks are being reported or, more likely, that the police are becoming increasingly more likely to record particular instances as racially aggravated. 

That said, the figures for this year show a different shape and that pronounced spike following the referendum won't be down to changing police practices.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What is it then?


seemed like it was a jealousy motivated attack no?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 14, 2016)

ska invita said:


> seemed like it was a jealousy motivated attack no?



With a nationalist element thrown in, no? Which makes it officially a hate crime



> Two sisters who yelled 'Poland rule the world' as they battered three women in a savage racist street attack were caught - after their victims found them on Facebook.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...



And from the link CRI provided above:



> Hate crime is defined as ‘any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice towards someone based on a personal characteristic.’



So if the women who were attacked (or any other person) perceive this to be a hate crime, it is.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's always tricky with these kinds of stats. Recorded racist crimes have gone up every year in the period covered. Does that mean there have been more racist attacks over that period? Probably not, tbh - just either that more attacks are being reported or, more likely, that the police are becoming increasingly more likely to record particular instances as racially aggravated.
> 
> That said, the figures for this year show a different shape and that pronounced spike following the referendum won't be down to changing police practices.



True, but it's also interesting to note that there has been a spike during July for every year on that chart above. Personally I think politicians and the media should take _all _hate crime seriously, not just those crimes that are politically useful at the time.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> True, but it's also interesting to note that there has been a spike during July for every year on that chart above. Personally I think politicians and the media should take _all _hate crime seriously, not just those crimes that are politically useful at the time.


It certainly appears to be a temperature-dependent activity. Racists don't like the cold, it seems. But that spike this year is against the previous trends. No denying that.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It certainly appears to be a temperature-dependent activity. Racists don't like the cold, it seems. But that spike this year is against the previous trends. No denying that.



Agree completely.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It certainly appears to be a temperature-dependent activity. Racists don't like the cold, it seems. But that spike this year is against the previous trends. No denying that.



Actually this reminds me of a thread I made a few years back on Google search trends over time, and a strange cyclical pattern of people Googling for the term 'nationalism'. Nothing to do with this thread btw, just really puzzling.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Actually this reminds me of a thread I made a few years back on Google search trends over time, and a strange cyclical pattern of people Googling for the term 'nationalism'. Nothing to do with this thread btw, just really puzzling.


 This is indeed weird and puzzling. Maybe it's something to do with election cycles. Or maybe the search tool has just gone haywire.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2016)

That is weird. Anything to do with school holidays?

re the seasonal variation in racist attacks, of course in winter most people - potential attackers and victims - are indoors a lot more, so they don't have such a chance to meet each other.


----------



## CRI (Oct 14, 2016)

#WhiteWhine


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 14, 2016)

CRI said:


> #WhiteWhine



Great reply. Got anything worthwhile saying? Or is a shit twitter-based politics all you have to offer?


----------



## CRI (Oct 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That is weird. Anything to do with school holidays?
> 
> re the seasonal variation in racist attacks, of course in winter most people - potential attackers and victims - are indoors a lot more, so they don't have such a chance to meet each other.


This ^

It's like the fluctuating reports of domestic abuse - higher in the school holidays (although I seem to recall there's a spike in people leaving abusive partners _after_ holiday periods, perhaps when more opportunity to actually leave.)

Go on shoot me, but I'm getting sick of the constant minimising, denying, blaming and rationalising of racist, xenophobic attacks.  Same tactics being used to defend the shit spewing out of Donald Trump's mouth as well.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 14, 2016)

CRI said:


> This ^
> 
> It's like the fluctuating reports of domestic abuse - higher in the school holidays (although I seem to recall there's a spike in people leaving abusive partners _after_ holiday periods, perhaps when more opportunity to actually leave.)
> 
> Go on shoot me, but I'm getting sick of the constant minimising, denying, blaming and rationalising of racist, xenophobic attacks.  Same tactics being used to defend the shit spewing out of Donald Trump's mouth as well.



The only person who has denied racism on this thread is you.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 14, 2016)

CRI said:


> #WhiteWhine



jesus christ


----------



## CRI (Oct 14, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Great reply. Got anything worthwhile saying? Or is a shit twitter-based politics all you have to offer?


All I can see you offering is excuses for racism and xenophobia and how hurt your fee fees are when people criticise your support for leaving the EU.  Boo bloody hoo.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2016)

CRI said:


> This ^
> 
> It's like the fluctuating reports of domestic abuse - higher in the school holidays (although I seem to recall there's a spike in people leaving abusive partners _after_ holiday periods, perhaps when more opportunity to actually leave.)
> 
> Go on shoot me, but I'm getting sick of the constant minimising, denying, blaming and rationalising of racist, xenophobic attacks.  Same tactics being used to defend the shit spewing out of Donald Trump's mouth as well.



It's not that. People are not going to be googling "nationalism" en masse because they have suffered racist violence.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 14, 2016)

CRI  just wondering, in your worldview are Polish people capable of being xenophobic if they live in Poland?


----------



## CRI (Oct 14, 2016)

Raheem said:


> It's not that. People are not going to be googling "nationalism" en masse because they have suffered racist violence.


Soz, I meant the spike in (reported) racist attacks, not the googling of nationalism.  It's a weird pattern, but there's all sorts of contexts in which you could google "nationalism," so I don't think that chart tells us much.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 14, 2016)

CRI said:


> All I can see you offering is excuses for racism and xenophobia and how hurt your fee fees are when people criticise your support for leaving the EU.  Boo bloody hoo.


That's not what's happening at all. You have got the wrong end of the stick massively


----------



## CRI (Oct 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> CRI  just wondering, in your worldview are Polish people capable of being xenophobic if they live in Poland?


Absolutely, in Poland, a Polish person can be xenophobic towards a non Polish person or racist towards a non white person.

The article was about an incident in Manchester, England.  Different context.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 14, 2016)

CRI said:


> All I can see you offering is excuses for racism and xenophobia



Oh yeah? Where'd I do that then? 



> fee fees



#TeenagePolitics #TwitterRadical #FortyCharactersOrLessBecauseItsEasierThanThinking


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 14, 2016)

CRI said:


> This ^
> 
> It's like the fluctuating reports of domestic abuse - higher in the school holidays (although I seem to recall there's a spike in people leaving abusive partners _after_ holiday periods, perhaps when more opportunity to actually leave.)
> 
> Go on shoot me, but I'm getting sick of the constant minimising, denying, blaming and rationalising of racist, xenophobic attacks.  Same tactics being used to defend the shit spewing out of Donald Trump's mouth as well.


That doesn't happen here much!


----------



## J Ed (Oct 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> CRI  just wondering, in your worldview are Polish people capable of being xenophobic if they live in Poland?





CRI said:


> Absolutely, in Poland, a Polish person can be xenophobic towards a non Polish person or racist towards a non white person.
> 
> The article was about an incident in Manchester, England.  Different context.




If the answer to this is yes, I would argue that if a person is capable of xenophobia then their worldview is not necessarily going to be entirely transformed when they leave one country and enter another.

I am not saying any of this to justify any sort of xenophobia, I think that the way that the incident has been described in the local paper is disgusting and only a fool would think that it wasn't deliberately designed to whip up xenophobia but equally I think what you are suggesting isn't true either.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2016)

Anyway, can we all agree that, despite the various methodological difficulties in such stats, there was a spike in racially related violence after brexit? Instead of bickering, it would be better just to agree on that. Doesn't make anybody right, it's just an unpleasant thing that has happened and it's really not worth arguing over whether it's happened. There's enough anecdotal evidence to support the stats, from me and my friends here in London and also from others who've posted here. It has happened.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Anyway, can we all agree that, despite the various methodological difficulties in such stats, there was a spike in racially related violence after brexit?



Yep.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 14, 2016)

I'm not even suggesting that we should take this a tenth as seriously as xenophobic attacks by Brits against Polish people, because I don't think we should and it is clearly is so much less of an issue, but still it is unfair to entirely dismiss an attack in which someone used someone else's nationality pejoratively as being motivated simply by jealousy. That is wrong too.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If the answer to this is yes, I would argue that if a person is capable of xenophobia then their worldview is not necessarily going to be entirely transformed when they leave one country and enter another.
> 
> I am not saying any of this to justify any sort of xenophobia, I think that the way that the incident has been described in the local paper is disgusting and only a fool would think that it wasn't deliberately designed to whip up xenophobia but equally I think what you are suggesting isn't true either.


I really hate the id politics angle of arguing over who's capable of what. Everyone is capable of bigotry, including racism and xenophobia, wherever they are. The absurd redefining of racism, for instance, so that certain groups can't be racist is patently absurd. Can we take that as a given?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I'm not even suggesting that we should take this a tenth as seriously as xenophobic attacks by Brits against Polish people, because I don't think we should and it is clearly is so much less of an issue, but still it is unfair to entirely dismiss an attack in which someone used someone else's nationality pejoratively as being motivated simply by jealousy. That is wrong too.


Yep. Agreed. And do some Polish people have really dodgy attitudes? Of course they do.


----------



## coley (Oct 14, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> What did they say?



We don't really understand globalisation and Neoliberal ideas but it seems to be hurting us, so fuck off.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2016)

coley said:


> We don't really understand globalisation and Neoliberal ideas but it seems to be hurting us, so fuck off.


I think there was a lot of that. And the 'fuck off' option was clearly 'leave'. I don't blame people for doing that - 'now is shit, this is change, bring on the change, particularly as a load of cunts want no change' is not an unreasonable position - the failure is elsewhere.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 14, 2016)

coley said:


> We don't really understand globalisation and Neoliberal ideas but it seems to be hurting us, so fuck off.



I wish I could find someone who does understand globalisation and neoliberalism 100%, if you find someone please let the rest of us know


----------



## CRI (Oct 14, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> That's not what's happening at all. You have got the wrong end of the stick massively


Well, show me the right end of this stick that I can't seem to see then.  

I am seeing some folk poo pooing of stats, accounts, etc. of racism and xenophobia and some links to dodgy stories that try to make out that abuse of white English folk / leave voters is as bad or worse than racist and xenophobic attacks and squirming and whining when anyone suggests that in voting leave, they would be bed fellows with the EDL and their ilk.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I wish I could find someone who does understand globalisation and neoliberalism 100%, if you find someone please let the rest of us know


Good point. My point would be that many people voting essentially 'fuck you' probably had no particular idea about what post-Brexit Britain would be. Any referendum is always to an extent a test of how many people are happy with the status quo.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 14, 2016)

CRI said:


> Well, show me the right end of this stick that I can't seem to see then.
> 
> I am seeing some folk poo pooing of stats, accounts, etc. of racism and xenophobia and some links to dodgy stories that try to make out that abuse of white English folk / leave voters is as bad or worse than racist and xenophobic attacks and squirming and whining when anyone suggests that in voting leave, they would be bed fellows with the EDL and their ilk.


What? That's an insane interpretation of this thread.


----------



## CRI (Oct 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If the answer to this is yes, I would argue that if a person is capable of xenophobia then their worldview is not necessarily going to be entirely transformed when they leave one country and enter another.
> 
> I am not saying any of this to justify any sort of xenophobia, I think that the way that the incident has been described in the local paper is disgusting and only a fool would think that it wasn't deliberately designed to whip up xenophobia but equally I think what you are suggesting isn't true either.


Glad to hear that at least you can see through the agenda of that article.

Yep, I agree a person can be racist, but can still be a victim of xenophobia.  Even if you're the former doesn't mean the latter is acceptable.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 15, 2016)

CRI said:


> Glad to hear that at least you can see through the agenda of that article.



I was literally the first person to post about how shitty it was.


----------



## CRI (Oct 15, 2016)

Shit, this was one of the few places on t'interwebs I thought there'd be at least a basic understanding/acceptance of structural oppression - enough at least so you don't have to keep saying "Not all white people/Brexiters/men/straight people/etc." to qualify every other statement.  Nope


----------



## CRI (Oct 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I was literally the first person to post about how shitty it was.


Okay okay, I saw that.  I'll leave a plate of cookies for all the good guys and leave now.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I was literally the first person to post about how shitty it was.


I feel like a fucking hippy here. But yes, CRI, you're wrong to jump on J ED for this. 

tbh this is really a bit of an obvious point. Of course this will happen. If tensions between races/nationalities are increased, there will be incidents from both sides. Of course there will. Doesn't change who raised the tensions in the first place, though.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 15, 2016)

CRI said:


> Okay okay, I saw that.  I'll leave a plate of cookies for all the good guys and leave now.



See once again you're descending to the level of twitter politics, with all the cliched phrases of the student intersectionalist. If you're going to patronise people with statements such as "I thought there'd be at least a basic understanding/acceptance of structural oppression", then you should at least up your game and start debating at that level. All I've seen from you so far are crappy #hashtag retorts. It's vapid and childish.


----------



## pocketscience (Oct 15, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> True, but it's also interesting to note that there has been a spike during July for every year on that chart above.


the seasonal rise of the purple party


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## coley (Oct 15, 2016)

bimble said:


> no. I'm not sneering. I'm a bit scared about the fact that she said it and felt that it was the right thing to say to please the people that she thinks voted leave.
> How do you feel about her saying that ?



On a personal level? Seeing the remarks  emanating from Hollande, Tusk et al, all designed to damage the UK and to protect their national interests, the racism pouring out of the likes of Hungary? she's probably right,
Personally, I love the idea of a world indifferent to flags, colour or nationality, pity the Eurocrats wanted it in their political lifetimes rather than allow it to develop organically.
The common market, allowed to develop naturally, step by step over decades could have been an inspiration to the world, but its failure, the catastrophe of the Euro, the castration of Greece and now Brexit, will have sown the seeds of Nationalism and protectionism far and wide.


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## The39thStep (Oct 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If the answer to this is yes, I would argue that if a person is capable of xenophobia then their worldview is not necessarily going to be entirely transformed when they leave one country and enter another.
> 
> I am not saying any of this to justify any sort of xenophobia, I think that the way that the incident has been described in the local paper is disgusting and only a fool would think that it wasn't deliberately designed to whip up xenophobia but equally I think what you are suggesting isn't true either.


Men pelt worshippers at a mosque with BACON just before evening prayers


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## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2016)

I'm sure the perpetrators of this attack would be a bit annoyed to find that this attack wasn't racist. And they'd surely be absolutely _horrified _to discover that they, in fact, _could not _perpetrate a racist attack in this country if they tried, that they are actually unable to no matter how hard they may wish to. They have to 'go home' to do that.

And i reckon a load of white w/c racists would be very happy to have the same logic applied to them - that, as members of the class whose exploitation this society is based on - nothing they do can actually be racist.

Fuck me, some shit posted last night eh?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I feel like a fucking hippy here. But yes, CRI, you're wrong to jump on J ED for this.
> 
> tbh this is really a bit of an obvious point. Of course this will happen. If tensions between races/nationalities are increased, there will be incidents from both sides. Of course there will. Doesn't change who raised the tensions in the first place, though.


They started it, the refrain of the playground.


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## Lurdan (Oct 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> They started it, the refrain of the playground.



They're all as bad as each other, the refrain of the staff room.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2016)

Lurdan said:


> They're all as bad as each other, the refrain of the staff room.


Is it? I wouldn't know.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I feel like a fucking hippy here. But yes, CRI, you're wrong to jump on J ED for this.
> 
> tbh this is really a bit of an obvious point. Of course this will happen. If tensions between races/nationalities are increased, there will be incidents from both sides. Of course there will. Doesn't change who raised the tensions in the first place, though.


Not to mention there aren't two sides, it's nearer the hobbesian state of nature - all against all - than a cricket or football match.


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## The39thStep (Oct 16, 2016)

Three charged following alleged hate incident on city centre tram


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## Chemical needs (Oct 17, 2016)

'I really don’t know why somebody would do this. I have no enemies'


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 21, 2016)

When heavily traumatised young people leave everything behind and trek a perilous journey across a continent in the hope of a new and safer life, freer from chaos and maybe want, please spare a thought for the real victims - the special snowflakes in this country who get so upset about it. The refugee crisis isnt really a crisis for refugees at all, they are having a grand old time I expect. Those in crisis are the spoiled and bitter oddballs, inadequates spouting phoney patriotism and swallowing the bilge of billionaires hate rags.


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## Celyn (Oct 22, 2016)

Actually, taffboy gwyrdd, that whole post reminds me of a song, but what song, and by whom, I don't know. <tries to remember>  Perhaps loads of songs of the same truth.    Old songs of hunger and pain that still need be again.


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## teqniq (Oct 29, 2016)

Two videos of attacks involving Spaniards in the UK after Brexit have caused outrage in Spain


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## Chemical needs (Oct 29, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Two videos of attacks involving Spaniards in the UK after Brexit have caused outrage in Spain



  That guy who hit a Spanish bloke round the head with a plank of wood got a 12 month suspended sentence, and his lawyer said that his client _"can't recall ever holding racist views"._ He violently attacked someone on the basis of their race! Surely it doesn't really matter what he can or cannot recall about his own views!?!


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## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 30, 2016)

All these people made racist because of brexit? You reckon the cunt with the plank of wood was a shy, retiring, libdem-voting carebear before someone suggested leaving the EU? Bull fucking shit!


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 30, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> All these people made racist because of brexit? t!


Nope.  But all those racists empowered by Brexit?


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## mojo pixy (Oct 30, 2016)

Chemical needs said:


> his lawyer said that his client _"can't recall ever holding racist views._



Those legal weasel words "I don't recall" which really mean "I don't want to tell the truth but if I lie I'm going to be found out"


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## mojo pixy (Oct 30, 2016)

Nearly as bad as "I wouldn't have said that"


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## Ponyutd (Oct 30, 2016)

Two videos of attacks involving Spaniards in the UK after Brexit have caused outrage in Spain

How in any way, shape or form is this sub human cu#t walking the streets? The video is very graphic by the way.
I cannot for the life of me think why a suspended sentence is applied here. 
He could have quite easily been killed by the assailant, Daniel Way, 37, from Bournemouth 
Anyone explain this to me.!?


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## Orang Utan (Oct 30, 2016)

Ponyutd said:


> How in any way, shape or form is this sub human cu#t walking the streets?


Perhaps not a good idea to use the language of racists to decry the behaviour of racists


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## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Perhaps not a good idea to use the language of racists to decry the behaviour of racists


Maybe sub as opposed to dom


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## teqniq (Nov 30, 2016)




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## Libertad (Nov 30, 2016)




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## JimW (Nov 30, 2016)

teqniq said:


>


I see they have some bloke as witness for this incident but apparently the basic story has done the rounds before in various versions, e.g. Navajo in the US: What the story of the niqab-wearing Welsh speaker tells us about what we want to hear Does come across as a bit too perfect however well meant.


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## mojo pixy (Nov 30, 2016)

If that story was set in Aberystwyth I might believe it.


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## teqniq (Dec 8, 2016)

JimW said:


> I see they have some bloke as witness for this incident but apparently the basic story has done the rounds before in various versions, e.g. Navajo in the US: What the story of the niqab-wearing Welsh speaker tells us about what we want to hear Does come across as a bit too perfect however well meant.





mojo pixy said:


> If that story was set in Aberystwyth I might believe it.



Well ok the story may well be apocryphal in nature, however I'm willing to lend it some credence as it bought to mind another story recounted to me by a friend here in Cardiff long before any of the current unpleasantness. An Iranian woman who was known to my friend and living in the South Wales valleys had taught herself to speak Welsh fluently. She was on holiday in North Wales and upon entering a shop found herself being talked about, in Welsh in a very derogatory fashion by a couple of the locals. She joined their conversation, in Welsh thus making it abundantly clear that the language and their prejudices were known to her. Cue shocked silence.


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## mwgdrwg (Dec 8, 2016)

These bloody Welsh speakers in North Wales. Always talking about you in Welsh behind your back, and even worse...switching from English to Welsh when you walk into the pub.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 16, 2016)

Len McCluskey, Unite leader, has fallen in to the trap of having a go at migration.

Trotting out the tired cliche of "listening to working people" he has opposed free movement. He was careful to oppose racism in doing so but he has a problem:

He uses the term "working people" as if referencing them all.

But what about the working people being blamed for "taking jobs", or the working people from this country who are victims of racism - assumed to be "taking our jobs" or a "burden on services"?

Does he mean the working people wishing to exercise the basic human dignity and freedom of movement?

No,he doesn't THOSE working people, but a specific demographic of working people in particular. Not that he could be being racist. He said racism is bad, so it cant be that.

How good it would be for a union leader to speak for all working people, instead of being divisive and capitulating to lazy right wing rhetoric.


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## mojo pixy (Dec 16, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Well ok the story may well be apocryphal in nature, however I'm willing to lend it some credence as it bought to mind another story recounted to me by a friend here in Cardiff long before any of the current unpleasantness. An Iranian woman who was known to my friend and living in the South Wales valleys had taught herself to speak Welsh fluently. She was on holiday in North Wales and upon entering a shop found herself being talked about, in Welsh in a very derogatory fashion by a couple of the locals. She joined their conversation, in Welsh thus making it abundantly clear that the language and their prejudices were known to her. Cue shocked silence.



I've done exactly the same thing as your friend's Iranian friend; I lived and worked in Aberystwyth for some time and via evening classes I became fairly able to speak Welsh in everyday situations. I've even been guilty of breaking into it with friends when encountering annoying tourists (hey, this is what passes for fun in Machynlleth most days!)

I'm still not inclined to believe the tale in the newspaper clipping, in large part because I've read the same exact story before concerning someone speaking Navajo in the USA. I imagine there are versions of this story doing the rounds everywhere; someone criticised for speaking Catalan in Barcelona, Hokkien in Taiwan, maybe Arabic in Jerusalem.


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## teqniq (Dec 16, 2016)

Muslim woman has headscarf ripped off in London hate crime attack


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## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2016)

mojo pixy said:


> I've done exactly the same thing as your friend's Iranian friend; I lived and worked in Aberystwyth for some time and via evening classes I became fairly able to speak Welsh in everyday situations. I've even been guilty of breaking into it with friends when encountering annoying tourists (hey, this is what passes for fun in Machynlleth most days!)
> 
> I'm still not inclined to believe the tale in the newspaper clipping, in large part because I've read the same exact story before concerning someone speaking Navajo in the USA. I imagine there are versions of this story doing the rounds everywhere; someone criticised for speaking Catalan in Barcelona, Hokkien in Taiwan, maybe Arabic in Jerusalem.


maybe because it has in fact happened in most or all of those settings.


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## mojo pixy (Dec 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> maybe because it has in fact happened in most or all of those settings.



Or maybe because people like telling the story because it gives them a warm feeling in their tummies, that they enjoy.


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## andysays (Dec 16, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Len McCluskey, Unite leader, has fallen in to the trap of having a go at migration.
> 
> Trotting out the tired cliche of "listening to working people" he has opposed free movement. He was careful to oppose racism in doing so but he has a problem:
> 
> ...



I've already said on another thread that I don't agree with McCluskey resigning in order to stand again as leader and I won't be voting for him.

But if you're going to accuse him of "having a go at migration", "being divisive and capitulating to lazy right wing rhetoric", I for one would like to see a full quote of what he's said and a proper explanation of how you think he's doing all those things.

Otherwise, making this post on this thread looks like an attempt to smear someone as racist without anything to back it up, which would be a bit of a cunt's trick.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 16, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Len McCluskey, Unite leader, has fallen in to the trap of having a go at migration.
> 
> Trotting out the tired cliche of "listening to working people" he has opposed free movement. He was careful to oppose racism in doing so but he has a problem:
> 
> ...



Is any concern whatsoever with the rate of migration racist? Anything other than No Borders a slippery slope to fascism?


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## butchersapron (Dec 16, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Len McCluskey, Unite leader, has fallen in to the trap of having a go at migration.
> 
> Trotting out the tired cliche of "listening to working people" he has opposed free movement. He was careful to oppose racism in doing so but he has a problem:
> 
> ...


Out of order to post this here.


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## belboid (Dec 16, 2016)

andysays said:


> I've already said on another thread that I don't agree with McCluskey resigning in order to stand again as leader and I won't be voting for him.
> 
> But if you're going to accuse him of "having a go at migration", "being divisive and capitulating to lazy right wing rhetoric", I for one would like to see a full quote of what he's said and a proper explanation of how you think he's doing all those things.
> 
> Otherwise, making this post on this thread looks like an attempt to smear someone as racist without anything to back it up, which would be a bit of a cunt's trick.


He's already demanded the G takes down and clarifies what he actually said. Tho not until he got some stick from various members


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## andysays (Dec 16, 2016)

belboid said:


> He's already demanded the G takes down and clarifies what he actually said. Tho not until he got some stick from various members



This appears to be a newish updated report of what McCluskey said here
Len McCluskey: 'Workers do best when labour supply is controlled' 
Maybe taffboy gwyrdd will explain how this translates as "having a go at migration", "being divisive and capitulating to lazy right wing rhetoric"...


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## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Len McCluskey, Unite leader, has fallen in to the trap of having a go at migration.
> 
> Trotting out the tired cliche of "listening to working people" he has opposed free movement. He was careful to oppose racism in doing so but he has a problem:
> 
> ...


He doesn't WHAT 'THOSE working people'?

If you're going to post bilge at least make sure you don't omit important words.


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## two sheds (Dec 16, 2016)

andysays said:


> This appears to be a newish updated report of what McCluskey said here
> Len McCluskey: 'Workers do best when labour supply is controlled'
> Maybe taffboy gwyrdd will explain how this translates as "having a go at migration", "being divisive and capitulating to lazy right wing rhetoric"...





> “That’s why I have called for new safeguards to stop companies cutting costs by slashing workers’ wages and transforming a race-to-the-bottom culture into a rate-for-the-job society.”


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## redsquirrel (Dec 16, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Is any concern whatsoever with the rate of migration racist? Anything other than No Borders a slippery slope to fascism?


And of course "free movement" is a fiction within capitalism anyway.


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## two sheds (Dec 16, 2016)

Added to the end of that article I see: 



> This article was amended on 16 December 2016. An earlier version stated that McCluskey had called for Unite to push for an end to the free movement of labour. While he talked of the need for a controlled supply of labour, he has since said that extending trade union organisation and collective bargaining protections are the best way to address concerns about the impact of free movement.


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## Schmetterling (Dec 16, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Muslim woman has headscarf ripped off in London hate crime attack



I read that earlier on and it really upset me!


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## Dogsauce (Dec 18, 2016)

Let's not forget who the real victim of hate crime is here:

Farage wants to be 'bridge' between UK and Trump - BBC News


> Asked about the rise in hate crime since the referendum, the former UKIP leader said he had endured four years of "endless" death threats - and that it was not just one side of the referendum argument who had behaved badly.
> 
> He said he had received 10 death threats in the past two weeks alone.



Nigel not exactly wise to the slight nuance between someone being singled out for abuse due to things outside their control such as the colour of their skin or foreign accent, and someone being threatened and abused because they're a nailed-on cunt that deserves it.


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## gosub (Dec 30, 2016)




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## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Let's not forget who the real victim of hate crime is here:
> 
> Farage wants to be 'bridge' between UK and Trump - BBC News
> 
> Nigel not exactly wise to the slight nuance between someone being singled out for abuse due to things outside their control such as the colour of their skin or foreign accent, and someone being threatened and abused because they're a nailed-on cunt that deserves it.


Let Farage be a bridge across the Atlantic. Drop him 140 miles north of the azores and let's see how well he does the job.


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## CRI (Dec 30, 2016)

*Theresa May 'will campaign to leave the European Convention on Human Rights in 2020 election'*
The European Convention on Human Rights is a separate entity to the EU and is upheld by the European Court of Human Rights 

Not surprised but


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## gosub (Dec 30, 2016)

CRI said:


> *Theresa May 'will campaign to leave the European Convention on Human Rights in 2020 election'*
> The European Convention on Human Rights is a separate entity to the EU and is upheld by the European Court of Human Rights
> 
> Not surprised but



Don't think Mrs May will be PM in 2018 let alone 2020


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## CRI (Dec 30, 2016)

gosub said:


> Don't think Mrs May will be PM in 2018 let alone 2020


Here's hoping, but what sucks is I can't think of anyone off hand who'd be good for the job.


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## Orang Utan (Dec 30, 2016)

CRI said:


> Here's hoping, but what sucks is I can't think of anyone off hand who'd be good for the job.


there's loads, but none of them are MPs


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## redsquirrel (Dec 30, 2016)

Does the Indy have anything that isn't clickbait these days. I think gosub's scarfolk link contains more actually information than this crap.


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## CRI (Dec 30, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> there's loads, but none of them are MPs


Well yes, good point.  Can we poke them with sticks to get them to stand?


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## Orang Utan (Dec 30, 2016)

CRI said:


> Well yes, good point.  Can we poke them with sticks to get them to stand?


If you want the job though, then you shouldn't have it.


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## oryx (Dec 30, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> there's loads, but none of them are MPs



Name names.


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## Orang Utan (Dec 30, 2016)

oryx said:


> Name names.


butchersapron


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## ItWillNeverWork (Dec 30, 2016)

CRI said:


> *Theresa May 'will campaign to leave the European Convention on Human Rights in 2020 election'*
> The European Convention on Human Rights is a separate entity to the EU and is upheld by the European Court of Human Rights
> 
> Not surprised but



What has this got to do with the topic of this thread?


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 2, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> butchersapron



You want to watch the world burn, don't you?


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## CRI (Jan 3, 2017)

*Britain more racist and less happy since Brexit vote - Sky Data poll
*
_The events of 2016 have left Britain a nation divided, a Sky Data poll suggests.  Whether on community relations, the economy or politics, Britons say they feel less united as a country - and do not expect things to get any better in 2017._

(Base: Nationally representative sample of 1638 Sky Customers, weighted to match the profile of the population. Respondents interviewed online 25-28 November 2016.)


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## Greebozz (Jan 18, 2017)

CRI said:


> *Britain more racist and less happy since Brexit vote - Sky Data poll
> *
> _The events of 2016 have left Britain a nation divided, a Sky Data poll suggests.  Whether on community relations, the economy or politics, Britons say they feel less united as a country - and do not expect things to get any better in 2017._
> 
> (Base: Nationally representative sample of 1638 Sky Customers, weighted to match the profile of the population. Respondents interviewed online 25-28 November 2016.)


Interesting study but November 2016 seems a long time ago when no one actually knew what was going to happen or what the government position was going to be. it seems like a funny conclusion to this poll.  I'm sure there are many that are less less happy than others.


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## existentialist (Jan 18, 2017)

Greebozz said:


> Interesting study but November 2016 seems a long time ago when no one actually knew what was going to happen or what the government position was going to be. it seems like a funny conclusion to this poll.  I'm sure there are many that are less less happy than others.


Thank you for that incisive, pertinent, utterly cogent, unasked-for and completely useless analysis. Don't call us/let the door hit your arse, etc.


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## eatmorecheese (Jan 19, 2017)

Monday morning, 7am, crammed into an over-full train at Streatham Common.

 A young woman with an Eastern European accent asks for people to move up so she can get on. Another woman says no, there's no space. Some bloke pipes up, saying, "push her off". She replies, shocked, "There's no need to speak to me like that!" followed by something I didn't catch.

Then the woman who said that there was no space said to her (waspishly and pointedly), "I'm sorry, I only speak English."

 

Pissed me off for the whole day, that did. London 2017. FFS.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jul 6, 2022)

mwgdrwg said:


> These bloody Welsh speakers in North Wales. Always talking about you in Welsh behind your back, and even worse...switching from English to Welsh when you walk into the pub.


I remember watching Pobol Y Cwm in 80s and there would be a fair bit of talking behind english peoples backs (usually just extras). Being polite in english, then switching to welsh for some anti english sentiment. They were not 'the baddies', it was just a shopkeeper or housewife and it was all very casual. Culturally casually anti english. It's definitely  something I had personal experienced in wales to some extent, but it still seemed odd to see it on a harmless daytime soap.


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## Dystopiary (Jul 6, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I remember watching Pobol Y Cwm in 80s and there would be a fair bit of talking behind english peoples backs (usually just extras). Being polite in english, then switching to welsh for some anti english sentiment. They were not 'the baddies', it was just a shopkeeper or housewife and it was all very casual. Culturally casually anti english. It's definitely  something I had personal experienced in wales to some extent, but it still seemed odd to see it on a harmless daytime soap.


Poor colonisers.


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## Ax^ (Jul 6, 2022)

villagers don't like anyone who not from the village it not just in Wales

have had it in Ireland myself as my accent is now mixed up on was sitting in a bar in glenravel Antrim and heard the local muttering " to many foreigners coming into the village" shouted over to the in gealic. "who's the foreigner" quickly shut them up


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## petee (Jul 6, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> villagers don't like anyone who not from the village it not just in Wales
> 
> have had it in Ireland myself as my accent is now mixed up on was sitting in a bar in glenravel Antrim and heard the local muttering " to many foreigners coming into the village" shouted over to the in gealic. "who's the foreigner" quickly shut them up



you have the irish then?


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## Ax^ (Jul 6, 2022)

before I left Ireland was in a gealic speaking school but lost most of it know can still just about keep up in coversation


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## extra dry (Jul 6, 2022)

they dont like outsiders because they bring plague from that there Eurpoee / most likely its a joke.


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## krtek a houby (Jul 8, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> before I left Ireland was in a gealic speaking school but lost most of it know can still just about keep up in coversation


Cupla focail, like. 

We're off to the Gaeltacht area in a few days and looking forward to hearing the language live. Even though can't speak it. 

Tried the French on the journey over but the steward rumbled piss poor attempts and switched to speak English to this embarrassed passenger...


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## mojo pixy (Jul 8, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> Poor colonisers.


I too remember the brutal annexation of the Welsh territories by glorious English militias and I'm glad the locals scorn their holidaymaking compatriots who dare to bring tourism money and appropriate the culture by eating Welsh cakes and occasionally saying _Shwmae_ to shopkeepers. Send 'em back!

(...on the other hand, everyone, everywhere takes the piss out of holidaymakers. Round here we just do it in English, which in all ways is funnier and more fun than doing it in a language they don't understand)


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## extra dry (Jul 13, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> I too remember the brutal annexation of the Welsh territories by glorious English militias and I'm glad the locals scorn their holidaymaking compatriots who dare to bring tourism money and appropriate the culture by eating Welsh cakes and occasionally saying _Shwmae_ to shopkeepers. Send 'em back!
> 
> (...on the other hand, everyone, everywhere takes the piss out of holidaymakers. Round here we just do it in English, which in all ways is funnier and more fun than doing it in a language they don't understand)


I always remember Blackadders quote about the Welsh language, its a joke but cruel and rather narrow minded.


----------

