# Kicking Off In Tottenham



## butchersapron (Aug 6, 2011)

Two cop cars, one bus, shop, looting, petrol bombs


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 6, 2011)

Sky news are covering this live...lots of fire...


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## butchersapron (Aug 6, 2011)

There's supposed to be at least one more fire north of the stuff on skynews


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 6, 2011)

Oh right, yeah been following on Twitter too, Dave Hill has some good coverage.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 6, 2011)

I've been looking at stuff on https://twitter.com/#!/fitwatcher


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## butchersapron (Aug 6, 2011)

Seems that all the people who were in the middle have stopped posting. Possible dispersal round side streets and potential spreading? I.e no middle anymore? Anyone?


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## OneStrike (Aug 6, 2011)

Lots of people heading in that direction if my friend is correct. Also people on sky with nothing covering their faces


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## butchersapron (Aug 6, 2011)

There's 3 guardian journos @PaulLewis, @sandralaville and @petersbeaumont who seem to be the 'nearest'


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2011)

how i can i watch this on my pc live?


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## 8115 (Aug 6, 2011)

It'll be very interesting to see what the story behind the shooting on Thursday was.


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## butchersapron (Aug 6, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> how i can i watch this on my pc live?


tv catch up -->bbc news. Unless you have sky, then just use sky go.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 6, 2011)

8115 said:


> It'll be very interesting to see what the story behind the shooting on Thursday was.



I think they're going with "stopped in a minicab, there was a shootout which he (Mark Duggan) started, he was shot twice in the face". There's a nice little detail about some copper having been shot but his radio stopped the bullet.


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## Mysterymonster (Aug 6, 2011)

My daughter and her boyfriend have just walked back home (from Tottenham Stn to their home just past the Hale) and she was really shocked... and she's been on a riot or two!! She said it was shocking and scary.


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## butchersapron (Aug 6, 2011)

What's the area round there like geographically - side streets or just big main roads? Easy to get to on foot? Residential bits or pretty much all commercial?


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 6, 2011)

"David Lammy, Labour MP for Tottenham, said: "I am shocked and deeply worried by this news. There is now a mood of anxiety in the local community but everyone must remain calm. *It is encouraging that the Independent Police Complaints Commission has immediately taken over the investigation.* There is a need to clarify the facts and to move quickly to allay fears.""

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...bullet-hit-his-radio-in-gunfight-2332670.html

Fuck off Lammy. Really. Useless New Labour tosspot.


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## peterkro (Aug 6, 2011)

The Jewish people near the camera are they the lot who turn up at the pro palestinian demos,they seem to be enjoying themselves whoever they are.
( who the fuck is the drongo being interviewed on the beeb now?)


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## Mysterymonster (Aug 6, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> What's the area round there like geographically - side streets or just big main roads? Easy to get to on foot? Residential bits or pretty much all commercial?



Lots of side streets... and weird dead ends/one way streets and stuff... probably quite hard for the police to control.

Also, she said that it's not just the area that you can see on the TV (obviously I guess) but she said that it seemed that many areas are involved.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 6, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> What's the area round there like geographically - side streets or just big main roads? Easy to get to on foot? Residential bits or pretty much all commercial?



Depends on the area, it's a little mixed. (I used to live round there.) There are quite large industrial estates around Tottenham Hale but a lot of the area is urban residential, estates and streets.


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## 8115 (Aug 6, 2011)

Funny mix of posh and estates I'd imagine.

Trident huh.  Seems a bit funny arresting someone in a cab.

/idle speculation.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2011)

peterkro said:


> The Jewish people near the camera are they the lot who turn up at the pro palestinian demos,they seem to be enjoying themselves whoever they are.



Naturei Karta? Probably.


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## butchersapron (Aug 6, 2011)

Who is the top London plod right now then?


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## ChrisFilter (Aug 6, 2011)

Sounds like it's gonna be an all nighter.


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## laptop (Aug 6, 2011)

Mysterymonster said:


> Lots of side streets... and weird dead ends/one way streets and stuff... probably quite hard for the police to control.
> 
> Also, she said that it's not just the area that you can see on the TV (obviously I guess) but she said that it seemed that many areas are involved.



Not that many side streets right by the police station:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=N17...00651,-4.064941&sspn=17.256447,46.538086&z=16


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## 8115 (Aug 7, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Who is the top London plod right now then?



I think (BBC news) the deputy is standing in at the moment.


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## Ranbay (Aug 7, 2011)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14434117


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## butchersapron (Aug 7, 2011)

Again i hear there's fires north of the cameras at Bruce Grove Station


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Are they going down the side streets then?


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

on the BBC "People are very angry"


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2011)

8115 said:


> Funny mix of posh and estates I'd imagine.


Nah, really not posh round there. There's a bit of an interface with Islington (comedy postcode shenanigans with estate agents ensue) but outside of that small area, no.


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

A squad of pods moving out of the area surrounding three fire persons...


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2011)

People are calling in live on LBC - http://www.lbc.co.uk/listen-live-3578


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## 8115 (Aug 7, 2011)

I'm getting real Broadwater Farm echoes (although I'm too young to remember that at the time).


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2011)

"Black, white, elderly people, teenagers... they're all here."


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

First time I stopped watching family guy...


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## RaverDrew (Aug 7, 2011)

Fucking idiots


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

10 riot vans outside of Stoke Newington police station. !


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2011)

Somebody on just now complaining about police stopping reporters getting into the area (though was cut short).


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## 8115 (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Fucking idiots



Who, people rioting?  I'd guess there's a fair amount of what social scientists tend to call disenfranchisement.  Coincidence that it's near the start of a new conservative government?  I doubt it.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> tv catch up -->bbc news. Unless you have sky, then just use sky go.


ta. i won't miss owt on sky then?


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

Apparently Toby Young is being interviewed on BBC news...


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Apparently Toby Young is being interviewed on BBC news...


That'll sort things out.


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## RaverDrew (Aug 7, 2011)

8115 said:


> Who, people rioting? I'd guess there's a fair amount of what social scientists tend to call disenfranchisement. Coincidence that it's near the start of a new conservative government? I doubt it.



yeah yeah usual urban riotporn wankfest blah blah...


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## butchersapron (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> ta. i won't miss owt on sky then?


BBC cameras are further out from where the action was earlier - but both sides now just talking to authority figures really.


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## Teepee (Aug 7, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> People are calling in live on LBC - http://www.lbc.co.uk/listen-live-3578



I tuned into an advert for careers in the metropolitan police


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> yeah yeah usual urban riotporn wankfest blah blah...



I'm sure I've read something about people putting call outs on twitter for anyone with a beef with the cops to come down.


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## 8115 (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> yeah yeah usual urban riotporn wankfest blah blah...



People like what they like.  I happen to not entirely disapprove of people expressing themselves rather than just taking any shit that gets thrown at them.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2011)

Teepee said:


> I tuned into an advert for careers in the metropolitan police


Me too  Join the Specials! They're really great! Now back to your regularly scheduled riot.


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Police and fire shots off down the high street one hope Tottenham Hotspurs been burnt down... (Runs and hides)


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## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

8115 said:


> People like what they like. I happen to not entirely disapprove of people expressing themselves rather than just taking any shit that gets thrown at them.



is this a pro-TSG post?


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## Teepee (Aug 7, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Me too  Join the Specials! They're really great! Now back to your regularly scheduled riot.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> is this a pro-TSG post?


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## RaverDrew (Aug 7, 2011)

Police caught out and outnumbered after some local kids get angry bout their local skunk dealer being shot. Let's smash up local small business' and set fire to shit. Yes, really fucking political stuff this.


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## 8115 (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> is this a pro-TSG post?



I don't know what TSG is.  But obviously there's not a huge amount of faith in the IPCC's (I think) ability to investigate this kind of thing and that's not totally without foundation in my opinion.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2011)

They nicked tellies from shops!


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2011)

(though why people were nicking tellies I don't know, they get them for free after all on the dole)


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## 8115 (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Police caught out and outnumbered after some local kids get angry bout their local skunk dealer being shot. Let's smash up local small business' and set fire to shit. Yes, really fucking political stuff this.



Oh sorry, I forgot politics was only men in suits.


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## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

8115 said:


> I don't know what TSG is.



Tactical Support Group: riot cops.

Who are getting shit thrown at them


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## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

i'm quite keen on smashing stuff up


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> Tactical Support Group: riot cops.
> 
> Who are getting shit thrown at them



Territorial Support Group.


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## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Police caught out and outnumbered after some local kids get angry bout their local skunk dealer being shot. Let's smash up local small business' and set fire to shit. Yes, really fucking political stuff this.



Some  big ole assumptions there.


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## butchersapron (Aug 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> Tactical Support Group: riot cops.
> 
> Who are getting shit thrown at them


Territorial Support Group - though they are just the old Tactical SG really. Which you may have meant.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2011)

It's their job to have shit thrown at them.


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## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

8115 said:


> I don't know what TSG is. But obviously there's not a huge amount of faith in the IPCC's (I think) ability to investigate this kind of thing and that's not totally without foundation in my opinion.



Perhaps, though they are nowhere near as bad as is commonly alleged (certainly its difficult to think of a case like this where they have been obviously wrong), and in any case they are a vast improvement on the PCA.  Not sure that burning a bus, some shops and a pair of police cars is a better way of dealing with it though.


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## RaverDrew (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> Some big ole assumptions there.



Aye, plenty on this thread already...


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## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "David Lammy, Labour MP for Tottenham, said: "I am shocked and deeply worried by this news. There is now a mood of anxiety in the local community but everyone must remain calm. *It is encouraging that the Independent Police Complaints Commission has immediately taken over the investigation.* There is a need to clarify the facts and to move quickly to allay fears.""
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...bullet-hit-his-radio-in-gunfight-2332670.html
> 
> Fuck off Lammy. Really. Useless New Labour tosspot.



In all fairness he's probably guarding his words after seeing how the media stitched his predecessor last time.


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## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Nah, really not posh round there. There's a bit of an interface with Islington (comedy postcode shenanigans with estate agents ensue) but outside of that small area, no.


 Islington is miles away.
I live round there - not home at the mo. though.  It's about as far from posh as you can possibly get.  Mostly families.
 Mostly residential apart from the High Road where the riots are, which is nearly all small local businesses.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

Bit confused about why these people are rioting though. The_ shite-papers-who-suck-police-cock_ ('hail of bottles', 'bulky jacket/behaving suspiciously', 'pissing on and robbing the dead at Hillsborough', etc) are all reporting that the guy was an evil 'gangsta'

... which causes me (perhaps naively) to wonder, are the locals:

a) generally in favour of 'gangstas' and hence rioting to protest the cops shooting one?
b) believing the guy innocent (it's not like the _shite-papers-who-suck-police-cock_ are exactly trustworthy sources of truth after all) or at least shot unreasonably?
c) severely pissed off about other stuff and merely taking the presence of tooled up riot police as an excuse to kick off?


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## Corax (Aug 7, 2011)

It's because of the jewish mentality you lot have I expect VP.


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## RaverDrew (Aug 7, 2011)

d) it's the school holidays


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Bit confused about why these people are rioting though. The_ shite-papers-who-suck-police-cock_ ('hail of bottles', 'bulky jacket/behaving suspiciously', 'pissing on and robbing the dead at Hillsborough', etc) are all reporting that the guy was an evil 'gangsta'
> 
> ... which causes me (perhaps naively) to wonder, are the locals:
> 
> ...



Duywayne Brooks said on FB where was the riots when people like the guy that got shot shoot innocent people?


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## Blagsta (Aug 7, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Bit confused about why these people are rioting though. The_ shite-papers-who-suck-police-cock_ ('hail of bottles', 'bulky jacket/behaving suspiciously', 'pissing on and robbing the dead at Hillsborough', etc) are all reporting that the guy was an evil 'gangsta'
> 
> ... which causes me (perhaps naively) to wonder, are the locals:
> 
> ...



I've seen a couple of people on another board, claim that the local gangs have planned this together, after the shooting.


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## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Bit confused about why these people are rioting though. The_ shite-papers-who-suck-police-cock_ ('hail of bottles', 'bulky jacket/behaving suspiciously', 'pissing on and robbing the dead at Hillsborough', etc) are all reporting that the guy was an evil 'gangsta'
> 
> ... which causes me (perhaps naively) to wonder, are the locals:
> 
> ...



There was definately a rumour going around (reported in the Grauniad and the Standard, IIRC) that he (Duggan) had been shot four times whilst laying on the ground, and rumours (even entirely fact-free ones) can kick this sort of thing off, as the Lozells riot demonstrated a few years back.  Otherwise it is probably a mix of things, like the usual oiks taking a chance to have a go back, and the two police cars being left unprotected in the midst of an angry crowd etc etc


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## 8115 (Aug 7, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Duywayne Brooks said on FB where was the riots when people like the guy that got shot shoot innocent people?



I think people have broadly been very supportive of the police's efforts to tackle gun crime.  Like I said, it will be interesting to see what the deal was with the guy who got shot.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> Islington is miles away.
> I live round there - not home at the mo. though. It's about as far from posh as you can possibly get. Mostly families.
> Mostly residential apart from the High Road where the riots are, which is nearly all small local businesses.


It's away from this specific instance really, yeah, that's the borough in general.

(I lived just by Seven Sisters - literally, about 50m away from the tube, a bit down Broad Lane - incidentally. I also have to say that I hated living there. All the actual people there were fine, mind.)


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## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

Up the Oiks!


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## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> Perhaps, though they are nowhere near as bad as is commonly alleged (certainly its difficult to think of a case like this where they have been obviously wrong), and in any case they are a vast improvement on the PCA. Not sure that burning a bus, some shops and a pair of police cars is a better way of dealing with it though.



Trouble is, the _entire point_ of an inquiry is to delay the findings until tempers have cooled. (Not _per se_ a bad thing: the courts doing the same as a substitute for blood feuds has its advantages.)

Tempers have clearly not cooled.

Like Bernie, I await with interest the full range of stories about the shooting... was it someone else who put the bullet in the police radio? Was the deceased in fact a News International employee?


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## manny-p (Aug 7, 2011)

BBC news 24 presenter.  " I can see hasidic jews"


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## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I'm sure I've read something about people putting call outs on twitter for anyone with a beef with the cops to come down.



Haven't seen anything on twitter.  I was watching it from early until, well, until xenforo was switched on.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2011)

allybaba said:


> BBC news 24 presenter.  " I can see hasidic jews"


Odd, because it's not like there's the largest Hasidic community outside of Israel there or anything.


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## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> d) it's the school holidays


yep - it *always* kicks off in the holidays in Tottenham.


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

```
" I can see hasidic jews"
```
 are on the rampage over a drug dealer


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## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well that's a fucking shock.



stormfront must be doing its collective nut


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

the plods are running towards Tottenham footy club


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Duywayne Brooks said on FB where was the riots when people like the guy that got shot shoot innocent people?



Well yes, but the shite papers saying he was an evil gangsta _might_ indicate that in fact he was just some random guy the cops shot and then briefed their mates in the gutter press to lie about, as they have on so many other occasions after killing someone.

I personally have no knowledge one way or the other, but given the form the cops and shite papers have in such cases, it would be a rather refreshing change if they weren't selling cynical arse-covering porkies to the general public yet again in this case.

I'd be interested in hearing what the local view on the dead chap was.


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## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> There was definately a rumour going around (reported in the Grauniad and the Standard, IIRC) that he (Duggan) had been shot four times whilst laying on the ground



Ah, that'll do it - if it happened, it turns it into a summary execution even if he was dead already (iyswim) and even if it does turn out to have been him that put the bullet in the radio.



agricola said:


> and the two police cars being left unprotected in the midst of an angry crowd etc etc





They didn't? Sometimes people see that as a bid for headlines. Remind me, was there a live threat of cuts to the force when they left a van in the middle of a crowd on 30 November 1999? And there was a van left amind the the fees demo, wasn't there? Happenstance, clearly.


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## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> There was definately a rumour going around (reported in the Grauniad and the Standard, IIRC) that he (Duggan) had been shot four times whilst laying on the ground, and rumours (even entirely fact-free ones) can kick this sort of thing off, as the Lozells riot demonstrated a few years back. Otherwise it is probably a mix of things, like the usual oiks taking a chance to have a go back, and the two police cars being left unprotected in the midst of an angry crowd etc etc


Yep - and we've had youth services cut to the bone in Haringey, there's no one in the middle to calm things, talk to people, so the rumours get out of hand and the anger builds and all the time the cops say nothing.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Well yes, but the shite papers saying he was an evil gangsta _might_ indicate that in fact he was just some random guy the cops shot and then briefed their mates in the gutter press to lie about, as they have on so many other occasions after killing someone.
> 
> I personally have no knowledge one way or the other, but given the form the cops and shite papers have in such cases, it would be a rather refreshing change if they weren't selling cynical arse-covering porkies to the general public yet again in this case.
> 
> I'd be interested in hearing what the local view on the dead chap was.



Indeed, thought it was interesting he'd say something like that given his position as a high profile LibDem councillor...


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## 8115 (Aug 7, 2011)

Little bit of a lol at the last sentence of the BBC report:

"The Met said a handgun was found at the scene and a bullet was later found embedded in a police radio."

I don't think they meant it to sound like it does.


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## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Odd, because it's not like there's the largest Hasidic community outside of Israel there or anything.



In Jerusalem, some groups of Hasidim seem to act on the principle that rioting doesn't break the Sabbath. (Probably quite different to these Hasidim.)


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## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's away from this specific instance really, yeah, that's the borough in general.
> 
> (I lived just by Seven Sisters - literally, about 50m away from the tube, a bit down Broad Lane - incidentally. I also have to say that I hated living there. All the actual people there were fine, mind.)


I love living there because of the people actually. I do feel a sense of community I didn't get anywhere else in London. This is why it depresses me so much.


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## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> Ah, that'll do it - if it happened, it turns it into a summary execution even if he was dead already (iyswim) and even if it does turn out to have been him that put the bullet in the radio.
> 
> 
> 
> They didn't? Sometimes people see that as a bid for headlines. Remind me, was there a live threat of cuts to the force when they left a van in the middle of a crowd on 30 November 1999? And there was a van left amind the the fees demo, wasn't there? Happenstance, clearly.



Police vehicle also left abandoned also Tescos during recent riots in Bristol.


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## gunneradt (Aug 7, 2011)

skanky area

cant think of a better thing for it


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## fuzzy felt (Aug 7, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> skanky area
> 
> cant think of a better thing for it


So you think areas that aren't affluent deserve to be torched because they're 'skanky' do you? Sounds like someone torched your cerebellum. Fucking idiot.


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## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

The BBC coverage is grating.


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## manny-p (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> The BBC coverage is grating.



Yep Ben Ando and that "hasidic jew" presenter have sent me to my bed.


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

> The BBC coverage is grating.


 I am not surprised...


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

There appears to be another shop etc on fire... on sky up the high street


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## Garek (Aug 7, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2011/jul/31/haringey-youth-club-closures-video



EDIT: I mean


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

is there a riot in Brixton???


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## 8den (Aug 7, 2011)

I lived just around the corner from all this.

Shudder....So glad I'm out of there


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 7, 2011)

I bloody hope not or Brixton Splash will be cancelled and this year there's a Latino sound system.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

BBC live feed was just interesting, reporter getting in a bit more than he probably intended...


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

fu*k it's kicking off with knifes now attacking police cars....


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Agh at the BBC news, DPD van on fire in Tottenham...


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## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Do you think Al Jazeera might be covering it?


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## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> There was definately a rumour going around (reported in the Grauniad and the Standard, IIRC) that he (Duggan) had been shot four times whilst laying on the ground



The Guardian and Standard stories I found say simply that



> one eyewitness claimed the suspect was killed as he lay on the ground in Ferry Lane.



I'm interested as to the specificity of your mentioning four shots... searches not producing anything yet. Mail says four shots heard; local paper says he was shot twice making three...


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## ennuff (Aug 7, 2011)

"and now for some british olympic dreams" lulz @ bbc: they do NOT get it


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

watching Sky news now...


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## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

i wonder if anyone will be round the police station tomorrow


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

*RT @Izaakson: Mini highstreet cop shop just went up in flames #tottenham. Police not managing to push back as before. Aldi broken into, more baricades*


A tweet...


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Izaakson Jennifer A. Izaakson

Police horse charges takinG place. Police tried to push them through lit baricades to no avail - cops trying to put them out #tottenham
7 minutes ago

Izaakson Jennifer A. Izaakson

Construction yard set of fire, blaze higher than buildings now. Street wide barricade made from stuff from yard. #Tottenham
26 minutes ago

Izaakson Jennifer A. Izaakson

Mini highstreet cop shop just went up in flames #tottenham. Police not managing to push back as before. Aldi broken into, more baricades
59 minutes ago

Izaakson Jennifer A. Izaakson

Barclays now broken into #tottenham
1 hour ago

Izaakson Jennifer A. Izaakson

Drinks from looted Iceland being assed round crowd at #tottenham. Police charging pushing crowd north
1 hour ago

Izaakson Jennifer A. Izaakson

@jaystoll They are joining in in high numbers!
1 hour ago

Izaakson Jennifer A. Izaakson

Double deck bus burnt out, banks, supermarkets, jewellery stores all set on fire. Crowd moving north on #tottenham highsmith
1 hour ago

Izaakson Jennifer A. Izaakson

Hasidic community outin force at #tottenham night of justice. 5 shops on fire in a row, Iceland looted, confrontations with tsg


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Do you think Al Jazeera might be covering it?



They are.


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## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://twitter.com/#!/rickin_majithia worth a read


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## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> *RT @Izaakson: Mini highstreet cop shop just went up in flames #tottenham. Police not managing to push back as before. Aldi broken into, more baricades*
> 
> A tweet...


not good enough. only the main police station burning should be reported


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> http://twitter.com/#!/rickin_majithia worth a read



Heh just started following him.


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> I'm interested as to the specificity of your mentioning four shots... searches not producing anything yet. Mail says four shots heard; local paper says he was shot twice making three...



its from here:



> However, a 20-year-old witness, who works nearby but did not want to be named, said: "I was coming home from work when I saw it all happening in front of my eyes.
> "I came around the corner and saw about six unmarked police cars cornering a people carrier near a bus stop.
> "I heard the police shout something like 'Don't move' and I saw them drag the driver out of the car. I don't know if they dragged the other guy out in the passenger seat. He was the one who got shot - the passenger.
> "About three or four police officers had both men pinned on the ground at gunpoint. They were really big guns and then I heard four loud shots. The police shot him on the floor."



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23975846-man-shot-dead-by-police-in-tottenham.do


----------



## OneStrike (Aug 7, 2011)

there is no Sky helicopter covering this, a blackout of sorts?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

OneStrike said:


> there is no Sky helicopter covering this, a blackout of sorts?


it's the bloody middle of the night


----------



## r0bb0 (Aug 7, 2011)

tottenham is a dive, needs regen, spurs were supposed to do it up but they want to move out of white hart lane into the olympic site , none of the fans want this, its a fucking shithole, no wonder they riot


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> its from here:
> 
> http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23975846-man-shot-dead-by-police-in-tottenham.do



Gotcha. Thanks.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

that's right helicopters can only fly over head after 11:00pm apart from the plods


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> that's right helicopters can only fly over head after 11:00pm apart from the plods


i think what you're saying is all helicopters are fair game after 2300


----------



## Belushi (Aug 7, 2011)

Just catching up with it on the news now, proper kicking off.


----------



## OneStrike (Aug 7, 2011)

ok, fair enough, I didn't know the rules with helicopters. Live and learn.


----------



## peterkro (Aug 7, 2011)

Beeb reporter saying they are getting reports of stuff happening in other parts of London,LBC were saying trouble in Brixton,Peckham and Croydon over an hour ago.This of course could be complete bollocks but would be a good tactical move given most of the heavy mob is in Tottenham.

(there's some very disturbing film of young people not covering up)


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

> that's right helicopters can only fly over head after 11:00pm apart from the plods


 sorry I met the plods can fly after 11:00pm  the others can stay on the ground


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

peterkro said:


> Beeb reporter saying they are getting reports of stuff happening in other parts of London,LBC were saying trouble in Brixton,Peckham and Croydon over an hour ago.This of course could be complete bollocks but would be a good tactical move given most of the heavy mob is in Tottenham.


if it's from two sources could well be true. people living in brixton could always go out and start something after reading this thread of course.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

BBC have had their camera smashed, so there's no live coverage!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> BBC have had their camera smashed, so there's no live coverage!


haha


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

peterkro said:


> Beeb reporter saying they are getting reports of stuff happening in other parts of London,LBC were saying trouble in Brixton,Peckham and Croydon over an hour ago.



Also that the BBC camera there has been broken...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> Also that the BBC camera there has been broken...


i refer you to lopsidedbunny's post 128


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i refer you to lopsidedbunny's post 128



 55 seconds earlier... 24-hour yawning void of commentary to fill... no time for reflection in passing on the news


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> 55 seconds earlier... 24-hour yawning void of commentary to fill... no time for reflection in passing on the news


no one likes johnny come lately's you know


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

now then do I go to sleep or stay up?  I got a 1pm footy match to attend... the Police will be knackered by then...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> now then do I go to sleep or stay up? ) I got a 1pm footy match to attend... the Police will be knackered by then...


speed


----------



## Belushi (Aug 7, 2011)

WTF is 'Gold Control', apparently its been activated in Lambeth.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Wood Green riot started?

I like pointless tweets


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Belushi said:


> WTF is 'Gold Control', apparently its been activated in Lambeth.


public order policing commands are of three levels, gold silver and bronze. there are a number of bronzes who will be in charge of various aspects of the police operation on the ground. silver is usually based at gt, which is gold control, and is in charge of the operation but overseen by gold who makes the final decision on things like water cannon, rubber bullets, shooting down rioters with heckler and kochs etc


----------



## CRI (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> http://twitter.com/#!/rickin_majithia worth a read


OMFG the Aldi!  Used to live just round corner.  Anyone know where the "construction site" he mentions as the "front line" is.


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

Belushi said:


> WTF is 'Gold Control', apparently its been activated in Lambeth.



Standard procedure for any operation is to have three tiers of command:

One "Gold" at HQ; passing orders to...
Several "Silver" - usually standing well back on the ground; each passing orders to...
Several "Bronze" - in the thick of it, sometimes seen with orange flashes on their shoulders.

Sky, earlier this evening, had confused something about activating a command centre in Lambeth with this standard procedure, because it sounds good.


----------



## remedial_gash (Aug 7, 2011)

Doesn't anyone think that it's bollocks that neither sky nor the beeb can get live pictures?

Beeb lady just said that 'our satellite van was smashed up', and sky are claiming that it's 'elf'n' safety'... surely this is odd given history.

gash
x


----------



## five7niner (Aug 7, 2011)

Belushi said:


> WTF is 'Gold Control', apparently its been activated in Lambeth.


It's the normal chain of command that is instigated for any major event. The news is making out it's a big deal, it's not. It's always set up during big events or in this case disorder.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

> Police dogs being brought in. Rioters also using dogs. #Tottenham officer says a number of colleagues hospitalised.


*rickin majithia*

Ffffff*


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

Belushi said:


> WTF is 'Gold Control', apparently its been activated in Lambeth.



what pickmans said, except also that its something the media like to announce in order to suggest excitement, something going on etc etc.  GT is actually open (for specific events like Notting Hill, the Marathon etc) many times a year, and can be opened within an hour of something like this going on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> Standard procedure for any operation is to have three tiers of command:
> 
> One "Gold" at HQ; passing orders to...
> Several "Silver" - usually standing well back on the ground; each passing orders to...
> ...


no, silver's not usually at the scene as this wikipedia article says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_-_silver_-_bronze_command_structure


----------



## remedial_gash (Aug 7, 2011)

remedial_gash said:


> Doesn't anyone think that it's bollocks that neither sky nor the beeb can get live pictures?
> 
> Beeb lady just said that 'our satellite van was smashed up', and sky are claiming that it's 'elf'n' safety'... surely this is odd given history.
> 
> ...


Okay, even sky are reporting on a 'sat van' being destroyed... surely protesters would want maximum attention?

Who is playing who?

Gash
x


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

Anyway, the Gold _du jour_ has a perfectly good Bond-villain-stylee black leather chair at the head of a large table at New Scotland Yard, so don't know what this "command centre" stuff is about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

remedial_gash said:


> Okay, even sky are reporting on a 'sat van' being destroyed... surely protesters would want maximum attention?
> 
> Who is playing who?
> 
> ...


i think people's desire for liberty might outweigh their desire for people to see the action on tv. why not smash up a tv van? it's one fewer camera filming you.


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

remedial_gash said:


> Okay, even sky are reporting on a 'sat van' being destroyed... surely protesters would want maximum attention?
> 
> Who is playing who?
> 
> ...



i think you overestimate the "protest" nature of this at the moment


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i think people's desire for liberty might outweigh their desire for people to see the action on tv. why not smash up a tv van? it's one fewer camera filming you.



to modernise Peel, liberty does not consist of a bunch of oiks burning an aldi to the ground


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> Anyway, the Gold _du jour_ has a perfectly good Bond-villain-stylee black leather chair at the head of a large table at New Scotland Yard, so don't know what this "command centre" stuff is about.


gold is not necessarily the commissioner / deputy commissioner. they've probably got bob broadhurst out of the pub to help deal with this - he's their top man and he's shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> to modernise Peel, liberty does not consist of a bunch of oiks burning an aldi to the ground


certainly not - not when there's a perfectly good police station down the way to do.


----------



## five7niner (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> gold is not necessarily the commissioner / deputy commissioner. they've probably got bob broadhurst out of the pub to help deal with this - he's their top man and he's shit.


As Pickman said and the Command Complex is not at Scotland Yard anymore - hasn't been for a while.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

it's not the same sitting out a decent riot instead of being there. think this is the first decent one i've missed in london since '95


----------



## 8den (Aug 7, 2011)

remedial_gash said:


> Doesn't anyone think that it's bollocks that neither sky nor the beeb can get live pictures?
> 
> Beeb lady just said that 'our satellite van was smashed up', and sky are claiming that it's 'elf'n' safety'... surely this is odd given history.
> 
> ...



In fairness if you're in Sky News or BBC on Saturday Night kicking around for a lazy Saturday the last thing you'd expect to to be bollocks deep in massive riot.

They're probably in the middle of the shit, with one inexperienced producer, not with the usual full team they'd have prepared for the likes of the G8. They're shitting themselves probably

http://twitter.com/#!/SkyNewts


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> gold is not necessarily the commissioner / deputy commissioner. they've probably got bob broadhurst out of the pub to help deal with this - he's their top man and he's shit.



I know Gold isn't the Commissioner - the large table is the incident room, populated by whoever's running the incident...

And observation says that Wikipedia article's not quite right about the number of Silvers and Bronzes.

Gawd, I hope Broadhurst's not involved... his brain works even less well under pressure...


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 7, 2011)

no more live feeds anywhere? beebs gone to Hard on talk and sky is talking shit


----------



## trabant (Aug 7, 2011)

"Base ordering us to leave for safety reasons. BBC crews report from every hot zone in the world but parts of our own city deemed 2 dangerous"

Rickin not happy about it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> I know Gold isn't the Commissioner - the large table is the incident room, populated by whoever's running the incident...
> 
> And observation says that Wikipedia article's not quite right about the number of Silvers and Bronzes.
> 
> Gawd, I hope Broadhurst's not involved... his brain works even less well under pressure...


if you're saying there's more than one bronze, yes, that's the case, and that's what the wikipedia article says if you bother to actually read it.

as for broadhurst being shit, he is - he was fucking clueless on march 26, he was fucking clueless the night charles and camilla got accosted in regent's street, and there's another time he's been fucking useless on some high profile do which has slipped my mind. he's fucking shit at his job.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

here's some photos wot i took

http://bit.ly/nAauuG


----------



## Teepee (Aug 7, 2011)

trabant said:


> "Base ordering us to leave for safety reasons. BBC crews report from every hot zone in the world but parts of our own city deemed 2 dangerous"
> 
> Rickin not happy about it.


great, we needed documentary evidence of what will happen. dick move by the bbc


----------



## remedial_gash (Aug 7, 2011)

8den said:


> In fairness if you're in Sky News or BBC on Saturday Night kicking around for a lazy Saturday the last thing you'd expect to to be bollocks deep in massive riot.
> 
> They're probably in the middle of the shit, with one inexperienced producer, not with the usual full team they'd have prepared for the likes of the G8. They're shitting themselves probably
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/SkyNewts


 
Ah, I'm 300 miles away, and didn't realise that sky couldn't spin on a penny to get a tear in a murdered kid's mother's eye at thirty miles. c.f. various other stories that they've run.

Ta for the info.

agsh
x


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

> "Base ordering us to leave for safety reasons. BBC crews report from every hot zone in the world but parts of our own city deemed 2 dangerous"
> 
> Rickin not happy about it.



I wrote back saying it's probably to do with over time pay...


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> if you're saying there's more than one bronze, yes, that's the case, and that's what the wikipedia article says if you bother to actually read it.



I did read it, Mr Grumpy. It talks about Bronze in the singular, then corrects itself. It talks about Silver in the singular.

I believe I have seen two Silvers conferring, near but well back from the scene of the action.



> as for broadhurst being shit, he is - he was fucking clueless on march 26, he was fucking clueless the night charles and camilla got accosted in regent's street, and there's another time he's been fucking useless on some high profile do which has slipped my mind. he's fucking shit at his job.



Indeed. I've only seen him going beetroot and incoherent when confronted at meetings...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> here's some photos wot i took
> 
> http://bit.ly/nAauuG


nice one!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> I did read it, Mr Grumpy. It talks about Bronze in the singular, then corrects itself. It talks about Silver in the singular.
> 
> I believe I have seen two Silvers conferring, near but well back from the scene of the action.
> 
> Indeed. I've only seen him going beetroot and incoherent when confronted at meetings...


there is only one silver and one gold and there can be any number of bronzes.the artice says 'the gold commander' and 'the silver commander' and 'a bronze commander', suggesting from the off that there may be more than one bronze but only one silver and gold. however it's a bit late at night to be teaching you remedial comprehension.

you may have seen two senior cops chatting - perhaps two chief supers, one a bronze and one the borough commander.


----------



## ennuff (Aug 7, 2011)

"not necessarily 'Riot', significant dissorder" lulz @ sky news, not violent disorder then


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

ennuff said:


> "not necessarily 'Riot', significant dissorder" lulz @ sky news, not violent disorder then


riot is 12 people minimum, violent disorder's 3.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

Rumours of it starting in Word Green now...


----------



## gawkrodger (Aug 7, 2011)

if twitter is to be believed it definetly appears to be spreading


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

i'm tempted to take a walk and see what i can see.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

> *New*
> 
> here's some photos wot i took​
> http://bit.ly/nAauuG​



Thanks for the piccys now get back out there


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> if twitter is to be believed it definetly appears to be spreading



Yep tweets popping up in a few places now saying things are burning in Wood Green.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

that'll be shopping city going up 

25 years since that last happened


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

@symeonbrown has just tweeted:



> I've just learnt disorder has spread to Wood Green, Turnpike Lane and Brixton. Where is next Harlesdon, Wembley, Mile End?



A journalist I know has repeated this Brixton rumour. Anyone from Brickie like to do a bit of on the spot reporting?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> @symeonbrown has just tweeted:
> 
> A journalist I know has repeated this Brixton rumour. Anyone from Brickie like to do a bit of on the spot reporting?


nah they're all glued to your posts.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Can't say I've heard any sirens in Brixton but then I don't really notice them anyway


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Can't say I've heard any sirens in Brixton but then I don't really notice them anyway


you have siren deafness


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

rumours of holloway road now. i think i might well take a wander down the way


----------



## gawkrodger (Aug 7, 2011)

right, i'm off to bed. will be interesting to see what has happened by morning


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> nah they're all glued to your posts.



Your mate Sunny Hundal is saying a large explosion has been heard in Wood Green.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> rumours of holloway road now. i think i might well take a wander down the way



I'm nearish there, might have to get down too.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 7, 2011)

I'm in Brixton, pretty central and I've heard no sirens.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

probably tvor - might follow suit


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you have siren deafness


 
Actually, I just heard one just now, but only one


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

bit fucking rubbish reading and hearing these reports of attacks on passersby and media cos i didn't see owt like that at all.


----------



## gawkrodger (Aug 7, 2011)

looiks like the big PC world at Tottenham Hale is going to be a bit light on stock tomorrow!


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

SiBraybrooke Si Braybrooke  

*#**tottenham* 1 policeman confirmed in hospital and another 7 injured! Spreading to Tottenham *Hale* and Wood Green and other pts of London
2 minutes ago


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

People almost begging for a riot in Brixton

http://twitter.com/#!/search/Brixton

Hm, can't figure out to post a link


----------



## gawkrodger (Aug 7, 2011)

#woodgreen is beginning to trend on twitter


----------



## DJ Squelch (Aug 7, 2011)

Carpet Right in flames on Lansdown Road
http://twitpic.com/625y4r


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> #woodgreen is beginning to trend on twitter



It is? Not seeing that when I look...


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

DJ Squelch said:


> Carpet Right in flames on Lansdown Road
> http://twitpic.com/625y4r


shares in carpet world go through the ceiling...


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

> http://twitpic.com/625y4r


 Carpets!

Dam been beaten...


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

brixton, peckham and croydon all denied as being places that are kicking off...


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> brixton, peckham and croydon all denied as being places that are kicking off...


People are tweeting like mad that it's kicking off in Brixton NO IT'S NOT! I'm in the centre of Brixton, windows wide open and it's as quiet as the grave.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

Yep apparently the MET are now saying that too to shut this crap up. Wishful thinking by the look of it...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> People are tweeting like mad that it's kicking off in Brixton NO IT'S NOT! I'm in the centre of Brixton, windows wide open and it's as quiet as the grave.



Total nonsense.  Don't know why people bother with that Twitter shite


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 7, 2011)

Exactly. Shite. People with their phones under the bedclothes getting all overexcited.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

Twitter is an excellent resource but like urban75 should be used with consideration and verification.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Exactly. Shite. People with their phones under the bedclothes getting all overexcited.



And they're all quoting the same posts.  Don't they bother scrolling through to see the dozens of reports saying that nothing is happening in Brixton


----------



## CRI (Aug 7, 2011)

DJ Squelch said:


> Carpet Right in flames on Lansdown Road
> http://twitpic.com/625y4r


Hey, I bought cheap lino from there once.  Freaky stuff.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

and what's more, they even repeat themselves.  Can't be arsed to type a new post, use the one they used 10 minutes earlier


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

> http://ht.ly/1e8e4W


 the bangs people are hearing... the glass blowing out from it's windows.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

Apparently Wood Green is being looted.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 7, 2011)

Just heard one siren. Like I do every night. Probably a couple of drunks having a punch up. Doubtless it'll be reported on twitter that Brixton is ablaze. Liars, liars, it's their pants that are on fire.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

News pretty boring at the mo' I don't know why they don't use pictures from tweets?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Just heard one siren. Like I do every night. Probably a couple of drunks having a punch up. Doubtless it'll be reported on twitter that Brixton is ablaze. Liars, liars, it's their pants that are on fire.



I'm going to bed.  If I don't post tomorrow, assume the Brixton rioters have got me


----------



## pengaleng (Aug 7, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Apparently Wood Green is being looted.



Fucking hilarious!  you gotta be desperate to rob that shithole!


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> News pretty boring at the mo' I don't know why they don't use pictures from tweets?



a) They've had their fingers burned with pictures that aren't what they say they are;

b) Have the pic-tweeters all ticked the box that says "yes, please, use my pictures for profit without asking me?"


----------



## 8den (Aug 7, 2011)

> SkyNewts





> Simon Newton
> 
> At the retail park. Looters running off laden with laundry bags of stuff. Faces not covered. No police anywhere to be seen #Tottenham


http://twitter.com/#!/search?q=#Tottenham
That retail park if it's not protected is going to get fucking savaged. Currys, Dixons, Argus, and loads of ways to duck out and away


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Anyone watching the Sky news clip mad! "Close quarter fighting" with pebbles and sheilds


----------



## ennuff (Aug 7, 2011)

@bbc @sky news @urban75 all your lulz @looting this war against capitalism and all its arms and fingers


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Oh joy


Marcward93 Marc Ward  

Apparently armoured police cars are on their way.. This is turning into LondonDerry in 1985 #*Tottenham*
4 minutes ago

He must mean those box type U.S.A. things...


----------



## ennuff (Aug 7, 2011)

b&q? orange/ carphonewarehouse? aldi? jd sports? carpetwrite? the jobcentre!? maplins? the tube? is this a war? a misplaced tweet? or "more serious troubles @ the US economy" lulz @RT


----------



## 8den (Aug 7, 2011)

Watching on BBC, I thin the postoffice on Tottenham High Road has been torched.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

despite all the hype there's fuck all going on in holloway and sonny hundal is not my friend

got my hopes up but i went up and down holloway road and no action to be seen at all


----------



## ennuff (Aug 7, 2011)

"they don't understand protest is realised in public discontent" RT @syria


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

a trip up white hart lane beckons later


----------



## rorymac (Aug 7, 2011)

Ya fuckin beauty .. kill the copper scum


----------



## rorymac (Aug 7, 2011)

Absolute beauty by the youth .. fucking go for it and no mistake !!
Fucking cunts taking the piss day in day out .. it's marvellous to watch em having enough of it and quite right n all !!
Bastards !!!!


----------



## bluestreak (Aug 7, 2011)

quite right, our rors, nothing like a british summer time get everyone out of doors and having fun with their neighbours.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Just wokened up and I can't believe what had happened last night  more rioting tonight?


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 7, 2011)

And that's before they sell Luka Modric.

I imagine police numbers will be seriously upped for Brixton Splash this afternoon....


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

See Police helicopter sponsor by Sky Corp is back...


----------



## Batboy (Aug 7, 2011)

Just sitting in cafe in Stokie, there is about 100 police all geared up about to drive down as reinforcements.
Funny enough I drove through Tottenham the other day and looking round I made the comment to my mate that it looks like nothing has changed here since Broadwater Riots. I'm really not surprised at events.


----------



## Batboy (Aug 7, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> And that's before they sell Luka Modric.
> 
> I imagine police numbers will be seriously upped for Brixton Splash this afternoon....



Levy will be pushing even more for Olympic stadium now  I guess!


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2011)

Must be the start of the anarchist revolution


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Batboy said:


> Just sitting in cafe in Stokie, there is about 100 police all geared up about to drive down as reinforcements.
> Funny enough I drove through Tottenham the other day and looking round I made the comment to my mate that it looks like nothing has changed here since Broadwater Riots. I'm really not surprised at events.



I'm wondering if they are off to the Cardiff game later...


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Sorry if this has been linked on here before.  Eyewitness claims riots sparked by 16 year old girl batoned by police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcwUyZ68C0k&feature=share


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 7, 2011)

rorymac said:


> Absolute beauty by the youth .. fucking go for it and no mistake !!
> Fucking cunts taking the piss day in day out .. it's marvellous to watch em having enough of it and quite right n all !!
> Bastards !!!!


Bastards indeed. Destroying their community. If they had to vent their ire, then why not at the cop shop?


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 7, 2011)

because it had hundreds of police protecting it?

What is this, retard hour?


----------



## Stay Beautiful (Aug 7, 2011)

I'm thankfully over the Northumberland Park end. Nothing worth looting here!  Yet there is still a strong smell of burning coming from the High Road!


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 7, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> because it had hundreds of police protecting it?
> 
> What is this, retard hour?



The retards are the ones burning and looting their own community. What does this do for Tottenham? How does this improve anything?


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 7, 2011)

You really need somone to tell you the bleedin' obv., that this is an emotional reaction, that's it's not a considered act?

Have you got the point about why the police station wasn't attacked yet?


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 7, 2011)

You reckon Mark Duggan's family needed this?


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 7, 2011)

Oh go away you idoit.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 7, 2011)

Is than an emotional response or what?


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 7, 2011)

See, now you're actually thinking. It's a start.


----------



## Weller (Aug 7, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> You reckon Mark Duggan's family needed this?



Are you reading Kay Burley's script for her  1pm news slot  ?


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 7, 2011)

Weller said:


> Are you reading Kay Burley's script for her 1pm news slot ?


Nope, can't stand her. Just replying to LC's anarchist handbook responses...


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 7, 2011)

Oooh, I'll just get my handbag...


----------



## Weller (Aug 7, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Nope, can't stand her. Just replying to LC's anarchist handbook responses...


perhaps you should get to know her better , you have a lot in common


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Army rubber bullet and water cannons... sky corp... silly news reports..


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 7, 2011)

Weller said:


> perhaps you should get to know her better , you have a lot in common



I know all about her and her agenda, thanks very much. You want to put a hold on those assumptions of yours, my friend


----------



## Weller (Aug 7, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> I know all about her and her agenda, thanks very much. You want to put a hold on those assumptions of yours, my friend



Only if you put a hold on your own assumptions that we could ever be friends


----------



## Stay Beautiful (Aug 7, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> The retards are the ones burning and looting their own community. What does this do for Tottenham? How does this improve anything?



You know I suspect the mob didn't set up a meeting and rationalise the whole thing. It is the result of years and years of frustration and discontent. Fuck all changed here during the 'boom' years, so you can imagine how young people feel now they're effectivley told they've got no future.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

8den said:


> That retail park if it's not protected is going to get fucking savaged. Currys, Dixons, Argus, and loads of ways to duck out and away


It is *always* being looted.  The JD has been done over by steaming gangs several times. I often find flat screen tellies, with the price still on, in the bushes on the marsh.
The retail park is smack bang next to one of the most poverty stricken estates in Tottenham.


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

Stay Beautiful said:


> You know I suspect the mob didn't set up a meeting and rationalise the whole thing. It is the result of years and years of frustration and discontent. Fuck all changed here during the 'boom' years, so you can imagine how young people feel now they're effectivley told they've got no future.



Well some bright sparks from this 'community' did decided to organise a protest with rather unrealistic demands at 5pm on a Saturday evening... Whilst they might not have known in advance that it would cause something on this scale it was still a pretty dumb thing to do. Unlike other police incidents it doesn't exactly sound like this local character was entirely innocent, gun recovered from scene, bullet in police radio... probably better to wait for an investigation before turning up with half the estate in order to demand 'justice' etc...


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Well some bright sparks from this 'community' did decided to organise a protest with rather unrealistic demands at 5pm on a Saturday evening... Whilst they might not have known in advance that it would cause something on this scale it was still a pretty dumb thing to do. Unlike other police incidents it doesn't exactly sound like this local character was entirely innocent, gun recovered from scene, bullet in police radio... probably better to wait for an investigation before turning up with half the estate in order to demand 'justice' etc...



no offence, but its very likely the protest and the riot were two entirely different things


----------



## Stay Beautiful (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Well some bright sparks from this 'community' did decided to organise a protest with rather unrealistic demands at 5pm on a Saturday evening... Whilst they might not have known in advance that it would cause something on this scale it was still a pretty dumb thing to do. Unlike other police incidents it doesn't exactly sound like this local character was entirely innocent, gun recovered from scene, bullet in police radio... probably better to wait for an investigation before turning up with half the estate in order to demand 'justice' etc...



There were less than 100 people on the protest. By all accounts, it was then sparked by another incident.


----------



## Maggot (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> no offence, but its very likely the protest and the riot were two entirely different things


But the riot sprang out of the protest.


----------



## thriller (Aug 7, 2011)

"A friend of Mr Duggan, who gave her name as Niki, 53, said marchers had wanted "justice for the family" and "something had to be done".
She said some of them lay in the road to make their point. "They're making their presence known because people are not happy," she added.
*"This guy was not violent. Yes, he was involved in things but he was not an aggressive person. He had never hurt anyone."*

He was carrying a fucking hand gun. *
*


----------



## Tankus (Aug 7, 2011)

excuse for large scale looting , ones doing it , few would be local..... at a bet .... police should have water canon and rubber bullets issued


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

Maggot said:


> But the riot sprang out of the protest.



it might be more correct to say that the riot took advantage of the protest


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Sorry if this has been linked on here before. Eyewitness claims riots sparked by 16 year old girl batoned by police.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcwUyZ68C0k&feature=share


 
Any more about this?


----------



## past caring (Aug 7, 2011)

Tankus said:


> excuse for large scale looting , ones doing it , few would be local..... at a bet .... police should have water canon and rubber bullets issued



New boards, same cunts.


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Any more about this?



FWIW there were no shield-equipped units there (or at least, in a line on the street) until well after the cars were set alight.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 7, 2011)

8115 said:


> Funny mix of posh and estates I'd imagine.
> 
> Trident huh. Seems a bit funny arresting someone in a cab.
> 
> /idle speculation.


virtually no 'posh'  whatsover from the Farm down to the High Road, and up to the ground - the whole area is one of the most unreconstructed/ungentrified in North London, +  mass of small side roads / alleys etc leading into / off estates, mainly low rise.

the closest to posh I know is  the Antwerp Arms area up Nothumberland park, which is still standing I think.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Must be the start of the anarchist revolution


Anarchists don't trash their own communities (or other peoples for that matter).

What happened in Tottenham was mob violence.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 7, 2011)

Red Pepper article says that BBC reported an eye witness saying that it kicked off following the police batoning a 16yr old girl at the protest outside the police station because she was questioning them...


----------



## cantsin (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Well some bright sparks from this 'community' did decided to organise a protest with rather unrealistic demands at 5pm on a Saturday evening... Whilst they might not have known in advance that it would cause something on this scale it was still a pretty dumb thing to do. Unlike other police incidents it doesn't exactly sound like this local character was entirely innocent, gun recovered from scene, bullet in police radio... probably better to wait for an investigation before turning up with half the estate in order to demand 'justice' etc...



just what the 'community' needs, some half assed cyber dweeb telling them what they should have done after the event....laughable.


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Red Pepper article says that BBC reported an eye witness saying that it kicked off following the police batoning a 16yr old girl at the protest outside the police station because she was questioning them...



I have no idea of whether that is true or not, but would point out that - at least up to the point where the cars got torched - there werent any public order equipped officers outside the police station, it was just a single line of officers in hi-viz jackets strung across the road.  After the cars got torched, and a few bottles got thrown at the line, then the kitted-up people (who were seemingly so few in number that they were probably officers from the original line who had been told to run inside the nick and get changed) emerged.

TBH (and based on my own very limited sight of what went on) it was the two cars being burnt that kicked this off (and people responding to that after seeing pictures via the media), not any batoning.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Do police not carry batons as a matter of course then?


----------



## BigTom (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> I have no idea of whether that is true or not, but would point out that - at least up to the point where the cars got torched - there werent any public order equipped officers outside the police station, it was just a single line of officers in hi-viz jackets strung across the road. After the cars got torched, and a few bottles got thrown at the line, then the kitted-up people (who were seemingly so few in number that they were probably officers from the original line who had been told to run inside the nick and get changed) emerged.
> 
> TBH (and based on my own very limited sight of what went on) it was the two cars being burnt that kicked this off (and people responding to that after seeing pictures via the media), not any batoning.



I also have no idea, and not being there am not really wanting to comment.  I take it you were around then?  someone on twitter (and I can't remember who now, but someone I know and would generally trust - I'd have to look back through my timeline last night to find out) said TSG were around before the cars were set ablaze..


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

cantsin said:


> just what the 'community' needs, some half assed cyber dweeb telling them what they should have done after the event....laughable.



Nah you're right. They were totally right to form a mob outside the cop shop with generic unrealistic demands after an local man who apparently wasn't at all violent was killed in an exchange of fire with the police.

They seem like really intelligent, well behaved people and I can't think why their 'community' is still a complete shit hole. I'm sure all the local business owners and other ordinary folk who live in the area are very thankful to this particular 'community' for all they've done last night.


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

BigTom said:


> I also have no idea, and not being there am not really wanting to comment. I take it you were around then? someone on twitter (and I can't remember who now, but someone I know and would generally trust - I'd have to look back through my timeline last night to find out) said TSG were around before the cars were set ablaze..



I wasnt there, but saw some of what was going on around that time via the CCTV from the high road.  There were definately no kitted up TSG, at least not on the road in the line of hi-viz officers.


----------



## Mation (Aug 7, 2011)

What's happening in Wood Green, then??


----------



## Stay Beautiful (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> I'm sure all the local business owners and other ordinary folk who live in the area are very thankful to this particular 'community' for all they've done last night.



Yep, fair play to them and I won't be alone in thinking that either.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 7, 2011)

well I've had a look back and the tweets from from @Daniel_carr who I don't know but apparently watching from his window..:

#tottenham #tottenhamriots 3 riot trucks arrived 7:45pm going wrong way up 1way st. Shortly after, police cars were on fire

@BBC_HaveYourSay I have been watching since beginning. Police arrived 7.45pm shortly BEFORE fires

#tottenham I cannot emphasise enough that TSG arrived BEFORE police cars set on fire

I'm *not* standing by these as factual truth btw, I can't verify anything at all.. e2a in my memory I thought it was Dan Hancox who tweeted these things


----------



## cantsin (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Nah you're right. They were totally right to form a mob outside the cop shop with generic unrealistic demands after an local man who apparently wasn't at all violent was killed in an exchange of fire with the police.
> 
> They seem like really intelligent, well behaved people and I can't think why their 'community' is still a complete shit hole. I'm sure all the local business owners and other ordinary folk who live in the area are very thankful to this particular 'community' for all they've done last night.



 idiot


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Do police not carry batons as a matter of course then?


They used to always have something called an asp. A little short thin thing you could flick and it would get longer, a sort of telescopic number.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 7, 2011)

BigTom said:


> well I've had a look back and the tweets from from @Daniel_carr who I don't know but apparently watching from his window..:
> 
> #tottenham #tottenhamriots 3 riot trucks arrived 7:45pm going wrong way up 1way st. Shortly after, police cars were on fire
> 
> ...


That's the lad who was saying there were fires at bruce grove station at the same time as the bus went up - i don't know if there were, but that would be a test of his reliability i'd guess.


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

BigTom said:


> well I've had a look back and the tweets from from @Daniel_carr who I don't know but apparently watching from his window..:
> 
> #tottenham #tottenhamriots 3 riot trucks arrived 7:45pm going wrong way up 1way st. Shortly after, police cars were on fire
> 
> ...



They do sound reasonable, though of course it does tend to suggest that the TSG were not there, or at least not there in strength, when the batoning took place (if indeed it actually took place).


----------



## Will2403 (Aug 7, 2011)

Good bit of parking by the police to abandon their car in perfect view of the CCTV camera.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

So is it only TSG who carry batons?


----------



## BigTom (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> They do sound reasonable, though of course it does tend to suggest that the TSG were not there, or at least not there in strength, when the batoning took place (if indeed it actually took place).



yep (and also with Butcher's post - does it fit?).. it also says that something happened before the police cars were set ablaze that got TSG/riot vans down there

e2a: which isn't surprising, I doubt that torching cars is ever going to be the very first incident in a riot situation..


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> They do sound reasonable, though of course it does tend to suggest that the TSG were not there, or at least not there in strength, when the batoning took place (if indeed it actually took place).



Obvs the police were there before the fires, how else would they set fire to their cars?


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> So is it only TSG who carry batons?



No, but it is usually the TSG who charge into crowds and baton people (which is what the chap alleges):

.

The line that was outside the police station was not one that would be capable of doing anything like that, they would have got battered.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

The Rule of the Mob in Tottenham: Sorab Shroff:


> Tottenham is one of the most deprived boroughs in the country. I live streets away from where eight-year-old Victoria Climbié died because of her abusive guardians. A few years ago, Ikea opened up at the edge of Tottenham, with a deep discount on the first day. It became a scene of a stabbing over sofas. A few years ago, my partner and I were beaten up, yards from my home by several thirteen year old boys and girls.
> No doubt, once more, some commentators will come out blaming "deprivation and poverty" for these riots. I reject this view completely. I grew up in India, where there is real, abject poverty - families without homes, food, shoes. Anger about a fatal police shooting does not necessitate burning buses and looting shops. This view is also unfair to the many, many families in Tottenham and elsewhere, who live on a tiny income and never once think about going out and ruining our public streets.


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sorab-shroff/the-rule-of-the-mob-in-to_b_920369.html


----------



## Balbi (Aug 7, 2011)

The BBC statements being shouted down by one bloke in the background talking about getting justice!


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> The Rule of the Mob in Tottenham: Sorab Shroff:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sorab-shroff/the-rule-of-the-mob-in-to_b_920369.html



Quoting the huffpost is like quoting a post on here. It's all the ravings of loons. Here and there.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

Ian BONEHEAD - crowing over the mob-violence. What an arsehole.


----------



## Balbi (Aug 7, 2011)

The vicar's just made the MP and council leader look silly


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 7, 2011)

Nick Cohen has a piece in the Observer comment section today called 'No riots here. Just quiet, ever-deeper misery'. Genius timing.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> The Rule of the Mob in Tottenham: Sorab Shroff:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sorab-shroff/the-rule-of-the-mob-in-to_b_920369.html


such a badly written article!


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Ian BONEHEAD - crowing over the mob-violence. What an arsehole.



better than Jody Macintyre's inane demand for people to rise up and have a go at "the feds" on twitter last night


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Nah you're right. They were totally right to form a mob outside the cop shop with generic unrealistic demands after an local man who apparently wasn't at all violent was killed in an exchange of fire with the police.
> 
> They seem like really intelligent, well behaved people and I can't think why their 'community' is still a complete shit hole. I'm sure all the local business owners and other ordinary folk who live in the area are very thankful to this particular 'community' for all they've done last night.


you utter clot.

as the facts of the arrest aren't known care to share where you happened upon the exchange of fire with the police from son...

as far as anyone round heres mentioned they dragged him out of the car and executed him whilst he was pinned down this is according to the 20 or so witnesses of the arrest who have so far come forward...

Which doesn't at any point suggest an exchange of gun fire unless they exchange was their bullets his life which is rather an unfair one, although one I'd glad see made for yours...

Why don't you shut the fuck up as you're clear uneducated and an irrelevant commentator....


----------



## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

Tottenham is one of my favourite places in London. I hate to see it wrecked. The looting and fires make me so angry.


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> you utter clot.
> 
> as the facts of the arrest aren't known care to share where you happened upon the exchange of fire with the police from son...
> 
> ...


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

boohoo said:


> Tottenham is one of my favourite places in London. I hate to see it wrecked. The looting and fires make me so angry.



Do you have an emotional attachment to Dixons?


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 7, 2011)

Views on Dave Osler's views, anyone?

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/08/07/tottenham-bloody-good-hiding-revisited/


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 7, 2011)

That Cohen piece. Of course there wasn't two riots in Bristol and the same/similar in london over the tuition fees.


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> as the facts of the arrest aren't known care to share where you happened upon the exchange of fire with the police from son...



Facts have been released though - Bullet lodged in police radio, office taken to hospital, gun recovered from scene. It doesn't take much logical deduction to figure out that his gun was fired at a police officer *before* he was shot in the head twice.



> as far as anyone round heres mentioned they dragged him out of the car and executed him whilst he was pinned down this is according to the 20 or so witnesses of the arrest who have so far come forward...



Whilst there does seem to be previous form for something like this - Brazialian on the underground post 7/7 etc... it would seem to be rather rare.
Unless the officer who was shot picked this guys gun up afterwards and accidentally shot himself with it then the idea that he was somehow executed in cold blood seems rather far fetched. Then again you're relying on rumours...


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> Do you have an emotional attachment to Dixons?


You don't have a clue do you? The old Co-Op building is stunning, it was renovated to provide affordable housing, gorgeous flats with floor to ceiling windows.  All gone, just charred remains left. The poor people who lived there.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Facts have been released though - Bullet lodged in police radio, office taken to hospital, gun recovered from scene. It doesn't take much logical deduction to figure out that his gun was fired at a police officer *before* he was shot in the head twice.
> 
> Whilst there does seem to be previous form for something like this - Brazialian on the underground post 7/7 etc... it would seem to be rather rare.
> Unless the officer who was shot picked this guys gun up afterwards and accidentally shot himself with it then the idea that he was somehow executed in cold blood seems rather far fetched. Then again you're relying on rumours...



we don't know what happened yet - you're also relying on conjecture


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> You don't have a clue do you? The old Co-Op building is stunning, it was renovated to provide affordable housing, gorgeous flats with floor to ceiling windows. All gone, just charred remains left. The poor people who lived there.


----------



## Tankus (Aug 7, 2011)

Some of those  small "local" retailers wont have full insurance , those living above the shops too ....Even if they weren't touched , there is going to be a drop off in trade ...go even further down hill ....


----------



## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> Do you have an emotional attachment to Dixons?



Where's Dixons?

No I like the place, the communnity. You live that way i take it?


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Views on Dave Osler's views, anyone?
> 
> http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/08/07/tottenham-bloody-good-hiding-revisited/



a mix of cliches and the "_well, it wasnt anything to do with us, blame the tories_" usual labour bollocks, last seen during the tuition fees disorder.  I especially like this quote however:



> New Labour had 13 years in which to address the multiple problems of areas that consistently return Labour MPs. Despite some useful initiatives, its essential commitment  to neoliberalism meant that it was unable to do so effectively.



Isnt this true of all safe Labour seats?   Do they actually want to improve the lot of those who repeatedly vote for them?


----------



## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> View attachment 12655



That's not the co-op that's the old theatre and what was the ice skating rink at some point.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Aug 7, 2011)

FFS - Whenever the police kill someone in cold blood they _always _put out a bullshit story that makes them look good and the victim look bad. The 'he fired first - but bullet lodged in coppers radio' sounds exactly like bullshit and I thought that the moment I heard the first report.
The cops do exactly the same whenever their is a riot as well. Expect some more bullshit about how it all started - police moved into the crowd to rescue a kitten or something.
From whats coming out it sounds like there was an angry demo and the police respsonded to it with aggro, thereby kicking everything off.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

Tankus said:


> Some of those small "local" retailers wont have full insurance , those living above the shops too ....Even if they weren't touched , there is going to be a drop off in trade ...go even further down hill ....


Bad reputations for areas stick like glue - and there is no convincing people of the niceness of a place -they just mention there was a riot many years ago.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

This is the co-op building


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 7, 2011)

Moonie Nile Gardiner thinks the cuts haven't gone deep enough.



> And what’s the evidence that these riots are anything at all to do with the policies of the current government? Absolutely zilch. They are merely an excuse for robbery and destruction. And if anything the Coalition has not gone far enough in reining in the deficit, and has not been forceful enough on issues like crime.
> 
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/n...s-for-the-criminal-actions-of-mindless-thugs/



The comments are, predictably, full of the usual racist garbage.



> j_striker
> 19 minutes ago
> Recommended by
> 4 people
> ...




This j_striker is a real charmer.


> j_striker
> 59 minutes ago
> Recommended by
> 7 people
> ...


----------



## 8ball (Aug 7, 2011)

Just catching up with this now - looks from the BBC website like the police took out one scumbag and the other scumbags used it as an excuse to come out and trash and loot the area, which is all nice and neat for anyone who isn't immediately reminded of those initial reports of the executed Arab-looking terrorist jumping over the Tube barriers wearing his bomb vest only for him later to turn into a central American electrician on the way to work.

Awful for the community either way with all the damage that's been done.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 7, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> FFS - Whenever the police kill someone in cold blood they _always _put out a bullshit story that makes them look good and the victim look bad. The 'he fired first - but bullet lodged in coppers radio' sounds exactly like bullshit and I thought that the moment I heard the first report.
> The cops do exactly the same whenever their is a riot as well. Expect some more bullshit about how it all started - police moved into the crowd to rescue a kitten or something.
> From whats coming out it sounds like there was an angry demo and the police respsonded to it with aggro, thereby kicking everything off.



This, I dont know how anyone can take the Met's word on anything given their long and ongoing history of bullshit.


----------



## Geri (Aug 7, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> You don't have a clue do you? The old Co-Op building is stunning, it was renovated to provide affordable housing, gorgeous flats with floor to ceiling windows. All gone, just charred remains left. The poor people who lived there.



Bloke on Sky News earlier said they had to leave with just the clothes they had on, they have lost their home and everything in it.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

They said Ian Tomlinson died of natural causes. They said Jean Charles had a bomb. They said Smiley C had a knife. They said Harry Stanley had a gun.


----------



## RaverDrew (Aug 7, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> FFS - Whenever the police kill someone in cold blood they _always _put out a bullshit story that makes them look good and the victim look bad. The 'he fired first - but bullet lodged in coppers radio' sounds exactly like bullshit and I thought that the moment I heard the first report.
> The cops do exactly the same whenever their is a riot as well. Expect some more bullshit about how it all started - police moved into the crowd to rescue a kitten or something.
> From whats coming out it sounds like there was an angry demo and the police respsonded to it with aggro, thereby kicking everything off.



Oh stop being such a pathetic liberal apologist.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

You can see the old co-op building, white, square towered, to the right


----------



## RaverDrew (Aug 7, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> They said Ian Tomlinson died of natural causes. They said Jean Charles had a bomb. They said Smiley C had a knife. They said Harry Stanley had a gun.



So lets go and fuck innocent local people up to make a point ? Yeah great idea...


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 7, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> They said Ian Tomlinson died of natural causes. They said Jean Charles had a bomb. They said Smiley C had a knife. They said Harry Stanley had a gun.



Innit.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> So lets go and fuck innocent local people up to make a point ? Yeah great idea...


It's not making a point, I don't think. It's the relentless catalogue of official bullshit is alienating the populace.


----------



## RaverDrew (Aug 7, 2011)

All you thick liberal idiots who want to carry on defending and justifying a bunch of teenage thugs fucking up their local community go ahead. Out yourselves here...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

boohoo said:


> Bad reputations for areas stick like glue - and there is no convincing people of the niceness of a place -they just mention there was a riot many years ago.



Not necessarily true. Brixton's still got the reputation but has been flooded by the middle classes.  Fair enough, they wouldn't come 25 years ago or even 15 years ago


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> View attachment 12656



Looks like a riot to me


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> That Cohen piece. Of course there wasn't two riots in Bristol and the same/similar in london over the tuition fees.



clearly a commentator in touch


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> So lets go and fuck innocent local people up to make a point ? Yeah great idea...


If the report is correct that an unarmed 16 year old girl got battered outside the cop shop, by cops, then there's only one mob to blame. That' not to say i agree with some events that happened last night.

For anyone who hasn't heard it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcwUyZ68C0k


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> They said Ian Tomlinson died of natural causes. They said Jean Charles had a bomb. They said Smiley C had a knife. They said Harry Stanley had a gun.



not to nitpick, but IIRC noone ever said that they had found a bomb with Jean Charles, or that they had found a gun with Harry Stanley.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not necessarily true. Brixton's still got the reputation but has been flooded by the middle classes. Fair enough, they wouldn't come 25 years ago or even 15 years ago


There are still loads of people that are funny about Brixton. I know work colleagues who thinks it's novel to have past through here accidentally on a night out.


----------



## roctrevezel (Aug 7, 2011)

I wonder how many of the 42 people arrested thus far (BBC News 24) actually live in the area.


----------



## Mooncat (Aug 7, 2011)

Just been speaking to my ex who was at a rave on Fontaine Road and she says there was definitely an air of racial tension. The rioters were pretty much all black and she was advised by a white guy who's mate had been beaten up to leave the area. Now - this guy who was beaten up did have a pro video camera so I'm more inclined to think that's the reason but I wasn't there myself.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

boohoo said:


> There are still loads of people that are funny about Brixton. I know work colleagues who thinks it's novel to have past through here accidentally on a night out.



Yes I realise that, but it has changed hugely in the last 10 years compared to 25 years ago.  25 years ago, everyone's jaw dropped if you said you lived in Brixton, now it's more a smallish percentage (most often for me, from people who don't know London)


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> All you thick liberal idiots who want to carry on defending and justifying a bunch of teenage thugs fucking up their local community go ahead. Out yourselves here...


have another think about it when you've calmed down. you're reacting emotionally, much like the rioters


----------



## Mooncat (Aug 7, 2011)

roctrevezel said:


> I wonder how many of the 42 people arrested thus far (BBC News 24) actually live in the area.


Quite a few from what I understand speaking to people who were there


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> not to nitpick, but IIRC noone ever said that they had found a bomb with Jean Charles, or that they had found a gun with Harry Stanley.



But two innocent people were gunned down anyway, just to be on the safe side like.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

roctrevezel said:


> I wonder how many of the 42 people arrested thus far (BBC News 24) actually live in the area.



Wouldn't surprise me if most of them don't.  I remember with the last mini Brixton riots, a lot of them had come in from Tooting and Peckham and other nearby areas.

Tottenham's on the Victoria Line so easily got to from Brixton for those so inclined


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=car...anoid=C5zOHQhvKn7CsPcF4YVi-Q&cbp=12,2.09,,0,0


----------



## Geri (Aug 7, 2011)

Mooncat said:


> Just been speaking to my ex who was at a rave on Fontaine Road and she says there was definitely an air of racial tension. The rioters were pretty much all black and she was advised by a white guy who's mate had been beaten up to leave the area. Now - this guy who was beaten up did have a pro video camera so I'm more inclined to think that's the reason but I wasn't there myself.



I saw plenty of white people masked up and looting on the news.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 7, 2011)

4 cop cars just barrelled past all blues and 2s. 

Last night there was a 20 shot gun battle across stamford hill.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 7, 2011)

boohoo said:


> There are still loads of people that are funny about Brixton. I know work colleagues who thinks it's novel to have past through here accidentally on a night out.


This, it's not as bad as it was, but there are still people who think I must live a life of extreme danger and take my life in my hands every time I leave the house.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> not to nitpick, but IIRC noone ever said that they had found a bomb with Jean Charles, or that they had found a gun with Harry Stanley.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3974461.stm the whole point was that he didn't have a gun, but they shot him because someone had said he did.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Geri said:


> I saw plenty of white people masked up and looting on the news.



Yep, saw that myself.

Amazing how stupid some of these youngsters are.  Wearing totally distinctive clothing, getting themselves filmed, taking photos of themselves


----------



## camouflage (Aug 7, 2011)

Yeah well y'know... at the end of the day it's only Tottenham.


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

weepiper said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3974461.stm yes they did.



and where does that state that the police said they had found a gun with Harry Stanley?  Please note the difference between that they thought he had a gun (which they did state) and that a gun was recovered from the scene (which is what they have stated with Duggan).


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

camouflage said:


> Yeah well y'know... at the end of the day it's only Tottenham.



They're only young.  I'm sure when they see their pictures plastered everywhere, they'll think about getting themselves filmed/photographed in future.  Maybe they unaware the internet exists


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-eight-police-injured






In Tottenham, firefighters survey the burnt out shell of a carpet showroom after rioting 
and looting erupted overnight. Photograph: Leon Neal/AFP/Getty Images


----------



## hendo (Aug 7, 2011)

8den said:


> In fairness if you're in Sky News or BBC on Saturday Night kicking around for a lazy Saturday the last thing you'd expect to to be bollocks deep in massive riot.
> 
> They're probably in the middle of the shit, with one inexperienced producer, not with the usual full team they'd have prepared for the likes of the G8. They're shitting themselves probably
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/SkyNewts



Definitely. Scary place for a Newsdesk to be, fast moving violence, needing coverage but mindful of your colleagues safety.


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## Mooncat (Aug 7, 2011)

Geri said:


> I saw plenty of white people masked up and looting on the news.



This happened early on at the protest itself rather than the aftermath but like I said I wasn't there.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 7, 2011)

Geri said:


> I saw plenty of white people masked up and looting on the news.



And I saw significantly more black and Asian people doing the looting/rioting.

This is what happens when instead of giving the man a fishing rod you give him fish and then you stop giving them fish. These are simple people who have lost the ability to function like humans, they have de-evolved into dumb, purposeless cattle and a few predatory wolves. But we are a rich society and the easiest course of action is to lob these creatures some food and shiny things to keep them out of our sight and we must recognise that they will get uppity when you forget to feed them. They are solely dependent like babies.


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## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

More pictures: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/gallery/2011/aug/07/tottenham-hit-by-riots-pictures


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

FFS:  People already on Twitter advising people not to go to Brixton Splash as there may be a riot

http://twitter.com/#!/search/Brixton


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## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> And I saw significantly more black and Asian people doing the looting/rioting.
> 
> This is what happens when instead of giving the man a fishing rod you give him fish and then you stop giving them fish. These are simple people who have lost the ability to function like humans, they have de-evolved into dumb, purposeless cattle and a few predatory wolves. But we are a rich society and the easiest course of action is to lob these creatures some food and shiny things to keep them out of our sight and we must recognise that they will get uppity when you forget to feed them. They are solely dependent like babies.



BOLLOCKS. BOLLOCKS. BOLLOCKS.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 7, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> And I saw significantly more black and Asian people doing the looting/rioting.
> 
> This is what happens when instead of giving the man a fishing rod you give him fish and then you stop giving them fish. These are simple people who have lost the ability to function like humans, they have de-evolved into dumb, purposeless cattle and a few predatory wolves. But we are a rich society and the easiest course of action is to lob these creatures some food and shiny things to keep them out of our sight and we must recognise that they will get uppity when you forget to feed them. They are solely dependent like babies.


Eh?


----------



## RaverDrew (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> have another think about it when you've calmed down. you're reacting emotionally, much like the rioters



I'm calm, just facepalming at all the dickheads who queue up trying to defend the young thugs who don't give a fuck about doing this over police brutality. There is NO political motivation for mindless opportunist looting of your local community. It's this shitty liberal apologetic crap that lets them get away with it and hide under the guise of real protest.

You look at the justice for Smiley campaign, far bigger numbers protesting in a totally peaceful way, showing how it should be done, and now inevitably their campaign will be undermined and be tainted by these fucking pricks in Tottenham. That's the real damage that has been done.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> FFS: People already on Twitter advising people not to go to Brixton Splash as there may be a riot
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/search/Brixton


there's only a couple of comments really


----------



## thriller (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> FFS: People already on Twitter advising people not to go to Brixton Splash as there may be a riot
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/search/Brixton



After a riot, we can re-name it: Brixton Smash.

LMFAO. LOL.  (well I think it's a funny joke)


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 7, 2011)

Met spokesman said the level of violence could be anticipated. 

Well the local tottenham community predicted it on Thursday. 

Let's see spurs play badly, booze, heat, poverty, 96% funding cut to the one police youth liason group, dead man under dubious circumstances 


Nope can't see any indication that this might escalate


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## weepiper (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> and where does that state that the police said they had found a gun with Harry Stanley? Please note the difference between that they thought he had a gun (which they did state) and that a gun was recovered from the scene (which is what they have stated with Duggan).



oh I see, misunderstood what you were getting at. Regardless, I haven't seen any news article saying that the man who was shot was the one in possession of the illegal firearm or indeed that he had shot at the police (he was in a minicab, by himself or with other passengers?)


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> I'm calm, just facepalming at all the dickheads who queue up trying to defend the young thugs who don't give a fuck about doing this over police brutality. There is NO political motivation for mindless opportunist looting of your local community. It's this shitty liberal apologetic crap that lets them get away with it and hide under the guise of real protest.
> 
> You look at the justice for Smiley campaign, far bigger numbers protesting in a totally peaceful way, showing how it should be done, and now inevitably their campaign will be undermined and be tainted by these fucking pricks in Tottenham. That's the real damage that has been done.


people don't riot for no reason. have a think about why they might be doing this instead of instantly judging them


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> BOLLOCKS. BOLLOCKS. BOLLOCKS.



I wish it was. We have generations who have been lost because it was easier to give them benefits than to educate and develop. Now we cut the benefits further and we have riots.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 7, 2011)

No, it really, really, is bollocks.


----------



## RaverDrew (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> people don't riot for no reason. have a think about why they might be doing this instead of instantly judging them



Yes they do, mob mentality is often opportunistic.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> Yes they do, mob mentality is often opportunistic.


Can you give an example of a riot with no reason?


----------



## RaverDrew (Aug 7, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> Met spokesman said the level of violence could be anticipated.
> 
> Well the local tottenham community predicted it on Thursday.
> 
> ...



More liberal apologism...


----------



## camouflage (Aug 7, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> And I saw significantly more black and Asian people doing the looting/rioting.
> 
> This is what happens when instead of giving the man a fishing rod you give him fish and then you stop giving them fish. These are simple people who have lost the ability to function like humans, they have de-evolved into dumb, purposeless cattle and a few predatory wolves. But we are a rich society and the easiest course of action is to lob these creatures some food and shiny things to keep them out of our sight and we must recognise that they will get uppity when you forget to feed them. They are solely dependent like babies.



Your way of looking at the world is appalling, incorrect and stupid, even in the face of my sneery disregard for Tottenham. The riot was not about the withdrawal of government funding of any sort (would that it were).

Bollocks to them and their crappy football team but also bollocks to _you_ sir.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> there's only a couple of comments really



There were more last night, and if last night's posts were anything to go by, all you need is for it to be repeated and repeated

There were still people claiming there was riots going on in Brixton an hour after people had posted that nothing was happening in Brixton


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> More *liberal* apologism...



you use that word very freely, raverdrew. are you sure you know what it means?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> More liberal apologism...


Are you standing in for ern?

Instead of shouting 'liberal' at people, why not provide your own analysis? Or do you just think these are bad people who need to be hunted down and punished?


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Can you give an example of a riot with no reason?



riot after the Birmingham City v Millwall game a few years back


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 7, 2011)

camouflage said:


> Your way of looking at the world is both appalling and incorrect, even in the face of my sneery disregard for Tottenham. The riot was not about the withdrawal of government funding of any sort (would that it was).
> 
> Bollocks to them and their crappy football team but also bollocks to _you_ sir.



The culture of being dependent on benefits has created conditions that, when combined with other factors, has resulted in the scenes we saw last night.


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## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Eh?



See her previous posts.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> there's only a couple of comments really


No there isn't. A guy called D Johnson, apparently in some capacity as a Youth worker, has tweeted this:http://twitter.com/#!/BlacJac and his young followers are spreading it like wildfire


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 7, 2011)

RaverDrew said:


> I'm calm, just facepalming at all the dickheads who queue up trying to defend the young thugs who don't give a fuck about doing this over police brutality. There is NO political motivation for mindless opportunist looting of your local community. It's this shitty liberal apologetic crap that lets them get away with it and hide under the guise of real protest.
> 
> You look at the justice for Smiley campaign, far bigger numbers protesting in a totally peaceful way, showing how it should be done, and now inevitably their campaign will be undermined and be tainted by these fucking pricks in Tottenham. That's the real damage that has been done.



Didn't realise Brixton had exculsive rights to death by police cases. Must have missed a memo.


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Are you standing in for ern?



More like channeling John Major:



> _more condemnation_ and _less understanding_


----------



## thriller (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> There were more last night, and if last night's posts were anything to go by, all you need is for it to be repeated and repeated
> 
> There were still people claiming there was riots going on in Brixton an hour after people had posted that nothing was happening in Brixton



you are being a tad over-dramtic.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> No there isn't. A guy called D Johnson, apparently in some capacity as a Youth worker, has tweeted this: http://twitter.com/#!/BlacJac and his young followers are spreading it like wildfire
> View attachment 12659


which tweet?


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 7, 2011)

ive got mates who live around there and they're posting the same sort of reactions as drew has tbf, in that the rioters were attacking shops and houses rather than anything else.

however, the riots obviously didn't happen for "no reason" and to be honest it's no real surprise things like this are starting to happen


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

thriller said:


> you are being a tad over-dramtic.



I'm not being over-dramatic, I'm saying that the people on twitter are being over-dramatic!  All sorts of nonsense about riots happening in Brixton last night


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 7, 2011)

Never known an inner city 'reaction' that hasn't involved looting. Among much else you get legit protesting, confrontationalists, and certainly opportunists.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

if you happened to be walking by, it must be very hard to resist the tempation to loot tbh


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> See her previous posts.


I don't think it's the actual Billie, quim


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 7, 2011)

Bol





Orang Utan said:


> if you happened to be walking by, it must be very hard to resist the tempation to loot tbh


Bollocks


----------



## thriller (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm not being over-dramatic, I'm saying that the people on twitter are being over-dramatic! All sorts of nonsense about riots happening in Brixton last night



the power of twitter in this case is being over-rated. this isn't the Iranian Green Movement or the Arab Spring. Some comments on twitter about Brixton isn't going to stop thousands of people attending this. too much attention is paying paid twitter. frankly I find twitter a complete bore.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

if dixons was being looted, who wouldn't be tempted to grab summat?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> I don't think it's the actual Billie, quim



Me neither.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Sorry if this has been linked on here before. Eyewitness claims riots sparked by 16 year old girl batoned by police.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcwUyZ68C0k&feature=share



Has this perspective been getting much play in the media?


----------



## Belushi (Aug 7, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Bol
> Bollocks



You'd ring me, invite me over and then persuade me to 'pick a few things up on the way'


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Has this perspective been getting much play in the media?



It is only now getting spread more round twitter.

@PaulLewis ( a guardian journo who went down last night) has appealed for reliable witnesses for this. Bit odd that no one else is saying it, tbh. You'd think anyone else at the initial protest would be.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

thriller said:


> the power of twitter in this case is being over-rated. this isn't the Iranian Green Movement or the Arab Spring. Some comments on twitter about Brixton isn't going to stop thousands of people attending this. too much attention is paying paid twitter. frankly I find twitter a complete bore.



I know it's not going to stop people coming to Brixton! 

Probably bring a few extra if they think there might be some trouble to be had!

I'd quite like to go down myself for a wander but don't have time


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> if dixons was being looted, who wouldn't be tempted to grab summat?


Me for one.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Me for one.


SQUARE


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 7, 2011)

Damn I wish I still lived there, why does the fun stuff wait until I've left? Good stuff to see major damage done and a bit of looting.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> You don't have a clue do you? The old Co-Op building is stunning, it was renovated to provide affordable housing, gorgeous flats with floor to ceiling windows. All gone, just charred remains left. The poor people who lived there.



I certainly don't agree with anyone but the riches home's being burnt down. But I cannot but cheer at the looting of large chain stores.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Damn I wish I still lived there, why does the fun stuff wait until I've left? Good stuff to see major damage done and a bit of looting.


Why?


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Can you give an example of a riot with no reason?



The best example is probably the Lozells riots from a few years ago, sparked by a rumour that was without foundation and which was spread by (and given credence by) people who should have known better.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

Mooncat said:


> Just been speaking to my ex who was at a rave on Fontaine Road and she says there was definitely an air of racial tension. The rioters were pretty much all black and she was advised by a white guy who's mate had been beaten up to leave the area. Now - this guy who was beaten up did have a pro video camera so I'm more inclined to think that's the reason but I wasn't there myself.


s'funny, i was there for two hours last night and saw nothing of the sort.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> You don't have a clue do you? The old Co-Op building is stunning, it was renovated to provide affordable housing, gorgeous flats with floor to ceiling windows. All gone, just charred remains left. The poor people who lived there.



I certainly don't agree with anyone but the riches home's being burnt down. But I cannot but cheer at the looting of large chain stores.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> riot after the Birmingham City v Millwall game a few years back


Millwall lost in the last minute to Birmingham City (who we loathed for good reason) and this caused  a very tense atmosphere. When people were leaving the ground and were heading towards The Blue, the police put a line of police in full riot gear across the road causing a big panicky crush to develop. This crowd were still on the whole good natured and had many kids on dads shoulders, blokes with their wives and girlfriends etc. Then the police charged the crowd (who had no where to go) and batoned loads of people including kids on dads shoulders etc causing loads of nasty injuries and creating a palpable sense of rage and fury.

This mindless attack by the police on a largely peaceful crowd was the REASON that many people then took their kids and girlfriends home, came back, looted the adjacent scrap yard and pelted the police with the contents repeatedly.


----------



## Corax (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> It is only now getting spread more round twitter.
> 
> @PaulLewis ( a guardian journo who went down last night) has appealed for reliable witnesses for this. Bit odd that no one else is saying it, tbh. You'd think anyone else at the initial protest would be.


Lewis is rapidly becoming my favourite hack.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> I certainly don't agree with anyone but the riches home's being burnt down. But I cannot but cheer at the looting of large chain stores.


but looters don't seem to discriminate. Tottenham is not known for it's great high street shopping hence why people headed to the Hale and Wood Green as they have big chain stores. However the high street is badly damaged.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 7, 2011)

boohoo said:


> Why?


Because it sounds like fun, and I could do with a 40inch plasma TV.

Also riots are a sign of healthy mistrust of the government and police.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 7, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> significantly more black and Asian people doing the looting/rioting. ... simple people who have lost the ability to function like humans ... de-evolved into dumb, purposeless cattle and a few predatory wolves. ... lob these creatures some food and shiny things ... they will get uppity when you forget to feed them ... solely dependent like babies.



Bit of a subtext, don't you have?

And no it's not what happens when "instead of giving the man a fishing rod you give him fish and then you stop giving them fish". It's what happens when you take their fishing rods off them and instead let in a great big fucking fish trawler to hoover up all the fish they *were* fishing.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 7, 2011)

*awaits IPCC whitewash*


----------



## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Because it sounds like fun, and I could do with a 40inch plasma TV.
> 
> Also riots are a sign of healthy mistrust of the government and police.


Where do live?  I feel a little oppressed of recent and would like to burn down some housing.  It would be fun and a symbol of my general mistrust of the government and police allegedly.


----------



## agricola (Aug 7, 2011)

teqniq said:


> *awaits IPCC whitewash*



Can you name any?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 7, 2011)

boohoo said:


> Where do live? I feel a little oppressed of recent and would like to burn down some housing. It would be fun and a symbol of my general mistrust of the government and police allegedly.


 
Lol. Don't be a complete div. Obviously bad things happen during riots and anti social elements will take advantage and yes innocent working class people may have their homes damaged or destroyed - but so what?

The fact is that violence or the fear of violence is the best way to get the state to pay attention to your gripes, unless you have a boat load of money.
And looting from chainstores is a victimless "crime". If I still lived round there I would do the rounds with a shopping trolley.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

I do prefer it when people riot in the centre of London and smash up the West End rather than smash up their own communities. That said, when the police kill people, the eruption of anger is likely to happen in the area of the death and be focused on the police and locality where it happened. It's sad always for those who suffer personally and who are blameless for the situation. The people who lost their homes must be fearful and gutted. I hope not many were robbed whilst the riot was going on.

I do unequivocally support the "mob" when they attempt to gain some vengeance on the police for their murderous actions. I hope the actions spread right across London. If it goes off in Brixton the DogStar is getting it!


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> FFS - Whenever the police kill someone in cold blood they _always _put out a bullshit story that makes them look good and the victim look bad. <snip>



... and they can count on their corruption-cronies in the media to repeat and embellish upon whatever sordid lies they may choose to 'brief.'


----------



## camouflage (Aug 7, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> The culture of being dependent on benefits has created conditions that, when combined with other factors, has resulted in the scenes we saw last night.



*calculates whether or not to bother, recalls hours of time wasted attempting to socialize libertards and rightwing loons of various stripes with calm rational arguments, realizes it would probably be a waste of effort and far more constructive and rewarding to repeatedly nut a brick wall. Decides to say instead-*

Right you are then .


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Millwall lost in the last minute to Birmingham City (who we loathed for good reason) and this caused a very tense atmosphere. When people were leaving the ground and were heading towards The Blue, the police put a line of police in full riot gear across the road causing a big panicky crush to develop. This crowd were still on the whole good natured and had many kids on dads shoulders, blokes with their wives and girlfriends etc. Then the police charged the crowd (who had no where to go) and batoned loads of people including kids on dads shoulders etc causing loads of nasty injuries and creating a palpable sense of rage and fury.
> 
> This mindless attack by the police on a largely peaceful crowd was the REASON that many people then took their kids and girlfriends home, came back, looted the adjacent scrap yard and pelted the police with the contents repeatedly.



cheers hadn't realised that happened, I was on itk the next day and everyone seemed to think it was just the bushwackers.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> And I saw significantly more black and Asian people doing the looting/rioting.
> 
> This is what happens when instead of giving the man a fishing rod you give him fish and then you stop giving them fish. These are simple people who have lost the ability to function like humans, they have de-evolved into dumb, purposeless cattle and a few predatory wolves. But we are a rich society and the easiest course of action is to lob these creatures some food and shiny things to keep them out of our sight and we must recognise that they will get uppity when you forget to feed them. They are solely dependent like babies.



Who is this idiot?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

Hackney One Carnival been postponed due to "police intelligence", shame really, chance for people to get together a bit, rather than sit indoors afraid of each other.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> cheers hadn't realised that happened, I was on itk the next day and everyone seemed to think it was just the bushwackers.



Nah the BW weren't really involved. It was the average sort of fan and hardly anyone masked up, the police followed a policy of "don't nick 'em, stick 'em!" and filmed the proceedings. Loads went to prison for really long stretches.


----------



## al (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I do unequivocally support the "mob" when they attempt to gain some vengeance on the police for their murderous actions. I hope the actions spread right across London. If it goes off in Brixton the DogStar is getting it!



Yep the DogStar is definitely a symbol of capitalist police oppression, fuck up the Oxfam shop while you're at it, prick.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

al said:


> Yep the DogStar is definitely a symbol of capitalist police oppression, fuck up the Oxfam shop while you're at it, prick.


The DogStar has been high on the list for years which is why it always gets a doing whenever there is a bit of a rukus. Loads of people hate the place and what it represents.


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## Garek (Aug 7, 2011)

Anyone got any more information on the numbers of those burnt out of their homes, or on the reports of homes being looted?


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Homes being looted just sounds like media bollocks to me. Like the Strangeways prison riot where the media kept reporting that loads of people had been killed.


----------



## Garek (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Homes being looted just sounds like media bollocks to me. Like the Strangeways prison riot where the media kept reporting that loads of people had been killed.



Yeah that was my thought to. But certainly some have been left homeless after last night.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Lol. Don't be a complete div. Obviously bad things happen during riots and anti social elements will take advantage and yes innocent working class people may have their homes damaged or destroyed - but so what?
> 
> The fact is that violence or the fear of violence is the best way to get the state to pay attention to your gripes, unless you have a boat load of money.
> And looting from chainstores is a victimless "crime". If I still lived round there I would do the rounds with a shopping trolley.


So you would be happy for your home or your families home to be destroyed to get your point across?

So violence is the best way to get the state to pay attention to your gripes - I better go and burn down the houses of my oppressors - I'm starting with men.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Garek said:


> Yeah that was my thought to. But certainly some have been left homeless after last night.


Well yeah, you could see their homes on fire above the carpet shop.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Homes being looted just sounds like media bollocks to me. Like the Strangeways prison riot where the media kept reporting that loads of people had been killed.



I agree. Having said that I remember stories about people being dragged out of their homes in the 1985 riots in Brixton. (it was the posh houses)


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

boohoo said:


> So you would be happy for your home or your families home to be destroyed to get your point across?
> 
> So violence is the best way to get the state to pay attention to your gripes - I better go and burn down the houses of my oppressors - I'm starting with men.



The first point is just a silly straw man.

The second is just wrong. Peaceful protest rarely if ever causes change to be enacted. Violent rioting has a history of causing great changes to be enacted. Look at Brixton boohoo, the 1981/85 riots caused major changes in policing, and a huge amount of cash to be spent in the area on it's infrastructure.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

boohoo said:


> I agree. Having said that I remember stories about people being dragged out of their homes in the 1985 riots in Brixton. (it was the posh houses)



Yeah but these stories were never substantiated because they were just untrue.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> Can you name any?



*"Azelle Rodney* was a drugs crime *suspect* from London shot dead by armed officers of the MET on 30 April 2005. A full inquest into his death has never been held."


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

I remember well a selection process happening in Brixton in 1985 with regard to looting. Some shops were considered to be decent and were left untouched. Others were considered to screw the customer and they got proper turned over. The off licence on Coldharbour lane just past Loughborough Junc was a case in point. They over charged, were rude and got totally looted.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 7, 2011)

agricola said:


> Can you name any?


Quite possibly overly cynical of me but yes, I can. what happened in Cardiff to friends of mine and there was a thread on here titled 'Victor George' but I can't find it (possibly due to moveover?) Vic was arrested at gunpoint in the street for allegedly being in possession of bomb-making equipment (Vic is in fact a somewhat eccentric and completely harmless musician). Their house was raided at the same time at gunpoint; his partner was traumatised and as a consequence suffered PTSD and had to give up her job. Complaints were made to the IPCC who found that there was no case to answer. Technically and within the letter of the law perhaps there was not, but imo the operation was completely botched from beginning to end (yes I know I'm likely to be biased). The police were allegedly acting on 'information received', The bomb-making equipment turned out to be bits of old tape-recorder and a mouldy can of Caribbean soft drink at Vic's recording studio. The officer in charge of the operation has since been found a nice job in the Virgin islands. So please excuse me if I don't have masses of faith in the IPCC.

/derail


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

boohoo said:


> I agree. Having said that I remember stories about people being dragged out of their homes in the 1985 riots in Brixton. (it was the posh houses)



I'm sure I remember stories of a woman raped in her home as well


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I remember well a selection process happening in Brixton in 1985 with regard to looting. Some shops were considered to be decent and were left untouched. Others were considered to screw the customer and they got proper turned over. The off licence on Coldharbour lane just past Loughborough Junc was a case in point. They over charged, were rude and got totally looted.



Jacket Potato place was left untouched but Burtons and Dunnes weren't


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## Belushi (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I remember well a selection process happening in Brixton in 1985 with regard to looting. Some shops were considered to be decent and were left untouched. Others were considered to screw the customer and they got proper turned over. The off licence on Coldharbour lane just past Loughborough Junc was a case in point. They over charged, were rude and got totally looted.



Didn't the same thing happen with pubs?


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## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> The first point is just a silly straw man.
> 
> The second is just wrong. Peaceful protest rarely if ever causes change to be enacted. Violent rioting has a history of causing great changes to be enacted. Look at Brixton boohoo, the 1981/85 riots caused major changes in policing, and a huge amount of cash to be spent in the area on it's infrastructure.


I am aware that is is the violent rioting that gets attention and causes change. It  doesn't mean that it's great fun to be around. When something kicks off, I don't have a sign to wear saying I'm alright don't touch me. I've never been a fan of violence -- have spent a lot of my childhood with it on my doorstep - sometimes literally. It is a shame that it seems to be the only way for change to happen.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

I think it's established beyond any reasonable doubt that the police and their corruption-cronies in the media are always going to tell cynical self-serving lies about cases like the original shooting and the subsequent rioting.

The rioting citizens will no doubt also have some things to say that aren't true, but crucially, they aren't in an ongoing corrupt relationship with the media.

(This corrupt relationship, often strongly suspected, e.g. after Hillsborough, has now been exposed, before parliament no less, and can't be dismissed as "conspiracy theory")

The key difference being that collusion between the cops and media leads to a disparity of power when it comes to whose cynical self-serving lies will stick in the public mind.


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## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Jacket Potato place was left untouched but Burtons and Dunnes weren't


It is a matter of deep regret that no one burned down the Spud U Like and scattered the ashes in the River Thames.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

made me laugh last night when an eldery caribbean gentlemen moved amongst the throng of people with a coolbox on a shopping trolley, selling drinks for a quid a go. good to see his business sense was being maintained.


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## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Jacket Potato place was left untouched but Burtons and Dunnes weren't



What fate Brixton Village if the same happens here again?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

http://twitpic.com/62da7y


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

> Mark Duggan (it seems) was shot twice in the face.The same way as Jean Charles, Weeks after Cressida Dick takes over SO19 #tottenham


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> What fate Brixton Village if the same happens here again?



Quite


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## Belushi (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> What fate Brixton Village if the same happens here again?



It will be besieged. It will be like 'Fort Apache, the Bronx' but with quality coffee and artisan bread.


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## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

boohoo said:


> I am aware that is is the violent rioting that gets attention and causes change. It doesn't mean that it's great fun to be around. When something kicks off, I don't have a sign to wear saying I'm alright don't touch me. I've never been a fan of violence -- have spent a lot of my childhood with it on my doorstep - sometimes literally. It is a shame that it seems to be the only way for change to happen.



I agree with you. I was scared in the 1985 riots even though I was one of the rioters! The paradox (often discussed in Class war meetings as loads of us were there) was that despite throwing all sorts at the police, I was glad they did not all fuck off and retreat as some on "my side" were nasty evil people who would cause you harm as soon as look at you.  The destruction and mess that were caused during that riot was awful and terrible for the people who lived there. This was why a great deal of satisfaction was taken from the 1990 poll tax riot because we (bunch of anarchists) wanted to riot in W1 and smash up the centre of town and this is exactly what we did.


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## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Belushi said:


> It will be besieged. It will be like 'Fort Apache, the Bronx' but with quality coffee and artisan bread.



You'll be guarding Elephant with your life.  ''No, not the samosas! What did they ever do to anyone?''


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Belushi said:


> It will be besieged. It will be like 'Fort Apache, the Bronx' but with quality coffee and artisan bread.



I remember in the mini 90s riots, kids running up Brixton Hill, diving into Poison Albert's and running up the road with saveloys


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## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Didn't the same thing happen with pubs?


I don't recollect any pubs getting burned down in 1985, unlike 1981, but I was only 14 for the 81 kick off and was to scared to go.


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## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I agree with you. I was scared in the 1985 riots even though I was one of the rioters! The paradox (often discussed in *Class war* meetings as loads of us were there) was that despite throwing all sorts at the police, I was glad they did not all fuck off and retreat as some on "my side" were nasty evil people who would cause you harm as soon as look at you. The destruction and mess that were caused during that riot was awful and terrible for the people who lived there. This was why a great deal of satisfaction was taken from the 1990 poll tax riot because we (*bunch of mob-violence loving brick-throwing ochlocrats*) wanted to riot in W1 and smash up the centre of town and this is exactly what we did.



Fixed for you.


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## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> What fate Brixton Village if the same happens here again?


They may have cause to regret that name change.


----------



## thriller (Aug 7, 2011)

How do I post a tweet on twitter? Want to tell this guy:

http://twitter.com/#!/BlacJac

he is a dickhead.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> No there isn't. A guy called D Johnson, apparently in some capacity as a Youth worker, has tweeted this:http://twitter.com/#!/BlacJac and his young followers are spreading it like wildfire
> View attachment 12659
> 
> View attachment 12660
> ...



Someone on Twitter has pointed out to him that his posts are on Urban75


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## boohoo (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I agree with you. I was scared in the 1985 riots even though I was one of the rioters! The paradox (often discussed in Class war meetings as loads of us were there) was that despite throwing all sorts at the police, I was glad they did not all fuck off and retreat as some on "my side" were nasty evil people who would cause you harm as soon as look at you. The destruction and mess that were caused during that riot was awful and terrible for the people who lived there. This was why a great deal of satisfaction was taken from the 1990 poll tax riot because we (bunch of anarchists) wanted to riot in W1 and smash up the centre of town and this is exactly what we did.


Yep - would prefer if they took their grievances up the west end. I suppose  Brixton and Tottenham are both areas I love for a variety of reasons and I hate to see them end up looking wrecked and their old reputations being dug up and held against them.


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## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Fixed for you.


Why not just argue your point (if you have one)?


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## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

> @name you're a dickhead



Like that^


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## Belushi (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> You'll be guarding Elephant with your life. ''No, not the samosas! What did they ever do to anyone?''



I think we'd be too busy forming a human chain around a mural.


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## thriller (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Like that^



I got to sign up I see. Cant be arsed. Someone who has a twitter account please tell him he is a twat.


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## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

boohoo said:


> Yep - would prefer if they took their grievances up the west end. I suppose Brixton and Tottenham are both areas I love for a variety of reasons and I hate to see them end up looking wrecked and their old reputations being dug up and held against them.



Trying to get a spontanious eruption of anger to move several miles to a better arena is logistically difficult!


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## ericjarvis (Aug 7, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I'm in Brixton, pretty central and I've heard no sirens.



From around half two to four AM last night there was a fairly excitable crowd out and about around Angell Town. Not rioting, just a lot of people discussing events in Tottenham rather "enthusiatically". No violence or damage caused, but then the Met have a tendency to call a large group of mostly black people a riot with very little reason.


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## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Belushi said:


> I think we'd be too busy forming a human chain around a mural.



Only if Boohoo gets to me before I get to the cake shop.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

thriller said:


> I got to sign up I see. Cant be arsed. Someone who has a twitter account please tell him he is a twat.



I'm sure he'll be able to see your post.  He's been given the link to this thread


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## MrA (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I remember well a selection process happening in Brixton in 1985 with regard to looting. Some shops were considered to be decent and were left untouched. Others were considered to screw the customer and they got proper turned over. The off licence on Coldharbour lane just past Loughborough Junc was a case in point. They over charged, were rude and got totally looted.



Well that's an improvemnt on 1981, when all shops were fair game, most of that riot was just an excuse for theives and thugs to go on a rampage. Looks as though last nights riots falls into the same category.


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## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Does anyone really criticise the people who looted the likes of Dixons and JD Sports in the retail park?


----------



## Garek (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Trying to get a spontanious eruption of anger to move several miles to a better arena is logistically difficult!



Reminds me of the Bill Hicks sketch about the LA riots saying basically "Now guys next time, go up the highway and attack the rick ok? Could be better than burning your own neighbourhood down".


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Does anyone really criticise the people who looted the likes of Dixons and JD Sports in the retail park?



Of course they do.  Do you live in a bubble? Go look at twitter/just about anywhere.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 7, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> From around half two to four AM last night there was a fairly excitable crowd out and about around Angell Town. Not rioting, just a lot of people discussing events in Tottenham rather "enthusiatically". No violence or damage caused, but then the Met have a tendency to call a large group of mostly black people a riot with very little reason.



there was a steady stream of sirens coming out of lewisham nick from about 1am for an hour or so


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## smokedout (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Trying to get a spontanious eruption of anger to move several miles to a better arena is logistically difficult!


 
big long hill up to crouch end, highgate and muswell hill as well

downhill all the way to church street mind


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Reporter on BBCNews now repeating about a girl being assaulted in some manner after 8pm being the trigger.

Was only half listening tho.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Of course they do. Do you live in a bubble? Go look at twitter/just about anywhere.


Well fine I will take it on trust you are right. But who gives a fuck about such opinions. If every JD Sports and Dixons was done over the world would be a better place.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Reporter on BBCNews now repeating about a girl being assaulted in some manner after 8pm being the trigger.
> 
> Was only half listening tho.


16 year old girl remonstrated verbally with police over the shooting and several of them battered her with batons. Match to petrol moment that.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Garek said:


> Reminds me of the Bill Hicks sketch about the LA riots saying basically "Now guys next time, go up the highway and attack the rick ok? Could be better than burning your own neighbourhood down".



Why should they attack rick?  What's he ever done to them?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Does anyone really criticise the people who looted the likes of Dixons and JD Sports in the retail park?



Some arseholes are.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Some arseholes are.


Well it's a retail park so ideal for rioting and looting. No one gets their cars or house fucked, lots of space to park up to steal stuff. Only problem is the shit selection of shops. What would you take from a JD Sports shop? I am stuck on this. Ideas anyone?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> 16 year old girl remonstrated verbally with police over the shooting and several of them battered her with batons. Match to petrol moment that.



I put a clip on here hours ago but not seen much corroborating accounts since this morning.  Do you have new info/link?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Well it's a retail park so ideal for rioting and looting. No one gets their cars or house fucked, lots of space to park up to steal stuff. Only problem is the shit selection of shops. What would you take from a JD Sports shop? I am stuck on this. Ideas anyone?



A new black hoodie?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

i'd get me some trainers and maybe another adidas hoodie. i'd probably wimp out given a real chance though


----------



## Tankus (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Well it's a retail park so ideal for rioting and looting. No one gets their cars or house fucked, lots of space to park up to steal stuff. Only problem is the shit selection of shops. What would you take from a JD Sports shop? I am stuck on this. Ideas anyone?


beats carpets


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> I put a clip on here hours ago but not seen much corroborating accounts since this morning. Do you have new info/link?


this is the audio clip that i've heard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcwUyZ68C0k


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> I put a clip on here hours ago but not seen much corroborating accounts since this morning. Do you have new info/link?


Reports of this are all over the news and are attributed to local people who saw the attack.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Tankus said:


> beats carpets


yeah how do you loot a carpet shop? Takes innovation I would think.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

Tankus said:


> beats carpets


How does someone loot a carpet, do ya think?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> this is the audio clip that i've heard
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcwUyZ68C0k



that's the link I posted this morning.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

gosh, spooky synchronicity there..


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> I put a clip on here hours ago but not seen much corroborating accounts since this morning. Do you have new info/link?



The media ain't running with it yet.
And "@copwatcher (apparently) Mark Duggan's family had to wait 36 hours before allowed to see his body. This is EXACTLY what fuels suspicions of a cover up."


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> that's the link I posted this morning.


ah, ok, still can't work out how these new boards work and couldn't see how to search for what you had posted. i feel all at sea.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

If you can buy something from one, you can loot something from one.

Personally I get strung out to carry flooring rolls for me.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

The Daily Mail has some very funny coverage.


> There were also reports that youths had stormed McDonald’s and had started frying their own burgers and chips.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> ah, ok, still can't work out how these new boards work and couldn't see how to search for what you had posted. i feel all at sea.



Since then I've seen a journo appeal for more witnesses to corroborate on twitter, but I haven't actually seen or heard another eyewitness account.


----------



## Geri (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Well it's a retail park so ideal for rioting and looting. No one gets their cars or house fucked, lots of space to park up to steal stuff. Only problem is the shit selection of shops. What would you take from a JD Sports shop? I am stuck on this. Ideas anyone?



Some Reebok Classics.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

More from the Mail.


> Meanwhile, two Mail on Sunday photographers were viciously beaten and robbed by masked youths armed with crowbars and other makeshift weapons and reporters on the scene were threatened by looters in balaclavas.



Edit to add: Excellent! Treat news reporters like the evidence gatherers that they are.


----------



## Corax (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Well it's a retail park so ideal for rioting and looting. No one gets their cars or house fucked, lots of space to park up to steal stuff. Only problem is the shit selection of shops. What would you take from a JD Sports shop? I am stuck on this. Ideas anyone?


My pair of Argos tennis rackets are a bit shit (2 and 2 balls for £15), so I'd welcome a couple of nice ones if anyone fancies popping down there.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> yeah how do you loot a carpet shop? Takes innovation I would think.



Did you not see the girl with the roll of carpet under her arm?


----------



## Garek (Aug 7, 2011)

Good image from the Mail of a looted store.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

> An eyewitness statement from Tottenham. Now people may see why people were pissed off.
> 
> "I heard the police shout something like 'Don't move' and I saw them drag the driver out of the car. I don't know if they dragged the other guy out in the passenger seat. He was the one who got shot - the passenger.
> 
> "About three or four police officers had both men pinned on the ground at gunpoint. They were really big guns and then I heard four loud shots. The police shot him on the floor."



http://www.twitlonger.com/show/c7u72g


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> The Daily Mail has some very funny coverage.


they lifted that from Twitter, it was so obviously made up.  I mean, _fail_ , when all they can do is print bullshit jokes off Twitter. Crack squirrels all over again....


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

If the police shot the bloke whilst he was in effect in custody then this will burn and burn.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Corax said:


> It's because of the jewish mentality you lot have I expect VP.


It wouldn't surprise me. We're behind everything in the world, and Tottenham is basically our base on this planet until we can get back to Beta Reticuli.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> they lifted that from Twitter, it was so obviously made up. I mean, _fail_ , when all they can do is print bullshit jokes off Twitter. Crack squirrels all over again....



Perhaps we could have another thread where we try to drop bullshit into news reports tonight when it kicks off again?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> If the police shot the bloke whilst he was in effect in custody then this will burn and burn.



It's sounding more likely that is what the fuckers did.


----------



## Teepee (Aug 7, 2011)

Garek said:


> Good image from the Mail of a looted store.



they took the netbooks but left the imac?!


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Perhaps we could have another thread where we try to drop bullshit into news reports tonight when it kicks off again?


Well they fall for it everytime.  I reckon it was smack weasels from Tottenham Marsh that looted this particular cheese.


----------



## WWWeed (Aug 7, 2011)

some nice pics over on http://www.demotix.com/from/europe/united-kingdom/london if you can live with watermarks (or paying for the image):


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Teepee said:


> they took the netbooks but left the imac?!



Good taste!


----------



## Stay Beautiful (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> How does someone loot a carpet, do ya think?



That place is right next to Job Centre, which would have been a prime target.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> It's sounding more likely that is what the fuckers did.



Fucking hell.


----------



## HST (Aug 7, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> http://www.twitlonger.com/show/c7u72g


As reported in the Evening Standard http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23975846-man-shot-dead-by-police-in-tottenham.do


----------



## IC3D (Aug 7, 2011)

Went through Wood Green earlier and its impressively trashed


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

http://twitpic.com/62cx1a/full

Some views from the EDL


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

Garek said:


> Good image from the Mail of a looted store.



http://londonnewspictures.photoshelter.com/page1 Click on take me to live feed, using name & pw


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

IC3D said:


> Went through Wood Green earlier and its impressively trashed



tell us more? The Shopping City, has it been done over?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> http://twitpic.com/62cx1a/full
> 
> Some views from the EDL



What nasty cunts


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Someone on Twitter has pointed out to him that his posts are on Urban75


Someone who made the account especially, said something I consider racist to him, and then it seems they deleted their account. I have a track of some of their conversation though, but not, unfortunately, the racist comment, which was totally uncalled for.

More tottenham related twittermill bollocks:  http://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/notting hill cancelled


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> http://twitpic.com/62cx1a/full
> 
> Some views from the EDL



Yesterday evening the knuckle dragging cunt pipes were blaming Muslims


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> tell us more? The Shopping City, has it been done over?


Yes, it's closed today.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What nasty illiterate cunts



Welcome to the EDL.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> http://twitpic.com/62cx1a/full
> 
> Some views from the EDL



What on earth is there to smile about in those comments?


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> http://twitpic.com/62cx1a/full
> 
> Some views from the EDL


Was that the EDL though? The use of the term "period" not say "full stop" makes me think USA?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> What on earth is there to smile about in those comments?



I'm laughing not smiling. Do the math.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> I'm laughing not smiling. Do the math.



What on earth is there to _laugh_ about in those comments?


----------



## Stay Beautiful (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> http://twitpic.com/62cx1a/full
> 
> Some views from the EDL



"The majority rioting were coloured"

Fuck me, are we back in the 70s?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> What on earth is there to _laugh_ about in those comments?



The EDL attempts to portray themselves as not racist. This contradicts that party line. I laugh.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

Stay Beautiful said:


> "The majority rioting were coloured"
> 
> Fuck me, are we back in the 70s?



You read those comments and the thing that struck you most was the use of the term 'coloured'?


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> http://twitpic.com/62cx1a/full
> 
> Some views from the EDL





Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What nasty cunts



Aye.


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> yeah how do you loot a carpet shop? Takes innovation I would think.



Articulated shopping trollies.


----------



## IC3D (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> tell us more? The Shopping City, has it been done over?


Didn't go that far but mobile phone shops seemed to have got the best of it, someone said the Job Centre has been smashed up too, no shocked residents strangely and saw a few guys who clearly had just come back from AandE enjoying Energy drinks in the sunshine


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Aug 7, 2011)

> "*This is just a glimpse into the abyss,*" former Metropolitan Police Commander John O'Connor told Sky News television Sunday. "Someone's pulled the clock back and *you can look and see what's beneath the surface*. And what with the Olympic Games coming up, this doesn't bode very well for London."



This is quite an interesting quote from the met commander


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Thats is a big area to secure after dark, Wood Green and Tottenham High Road.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

How come you're a mod now laptop?


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> How come you're a mod now laptop?



I was just thinking that myself.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Does anyone really criticise the people who looted the likes of Dixons and JD Sports in the retail park?



Bar the fact that last time I was in JD Sport they didn't have anything I wanted, even if it had been free, no.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 7, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> This is quite an interesting quote from the met commander



<conspiracy theorist alert>
I was wondering whether the Met decided to under-estimate the potential for things to kick off last night, as yet another demonstration to the gov't of why exactly they need to have the police onside in the coming months/years ...
Thatcher never made the mistake of pissing the police off, did she.(Did she????)
</conspiracy theorist>


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> How does someone loot a carpet, do ya think?



Dunno, years ago a mate found one that looked dumped in the street, when they got it home and unrolled it someone had stashed a load of shots in it. Anyway, he was on foot, any reasonably strength man can loot a largish carpet or rug.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 7, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> they lifted that from Twitter, it was so obviously made up. I mean, _fail_ , when all they can do is print bullshit jokes off Twitter. Crack squirrels all over again....


This this you mean? 






			
				Fail on Sunday said:
			
		

> reports that youths had stormed McDonald’s and had started frying their own burgers and chips.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

From the Telegraph:


> _On almost every street corner down the blocked off High Street there are loud discussions among residents about what happened and who is to blame. The list is a long one and the government, the police, David Cameron and local MP David Lammy are all on it._
> _Most seem to agree that the riot was a long time coming and not just a reaction to the Mark Duggan shooting. "You had a tinder box that was waiting and that was just the match," says one woman._


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> This this you mean?


Yep that one - was posted by some teenager obv. in jest. She clearly wasn't at the scene.  All the local girls were posting jokey tweets ordering hair from the hairshops round there, this was no different.  Who has time to cook during a riot anyway?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> From the Telegraph:



Quite enlightened from the Telegraph.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 7, 2011)

http://twitpic.com/622z28

http://twitpic.com/623gp0

My Sister took these last night.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Is the Victoria Line still open to 7 Sisters?


----------



## Mooncat (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> s'funny, i was there for two hours last night and saw nothing of the sort.


What time were you there?  This happened about 11:30/midnight ish when it had just kicked off.  Some other mates got accused of being undercover and were threatened but by about 2 it was an equal opportunities riot


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Nope, can't stand her. Just replying to LC's anarchist handbook responses...


Perhaps you should ask yourself why someone might wish to destroy shops etc in their own community.

I can think of many incidences, recent and in the dim past where that sort of thing happened not just because people wanted to "fuck shit up", but because in some cases they felt exploited by those businesses, as customers and employees.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Stay Beautiful said:


> You know I suspect the mob didn't set up a meeting and rationalise the whole thing. It is the result of years and years of frustration and discontent. Fuck all changed here during the 'boom' years, so you can imagine how young people feel now they're effectivley told they've got no future.


You can just imagine it:

"I say, chaps, perhaps we shouldn't smash stuff up and rob businesses because wiberals will see footage of it, and be shocked!".


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Yeah it's usually the cash converters that go up first followed by the pawn brokerscum jewellers.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

thriller said:


> "A friend of Mr Duggan, who gave her name as Niki, 53, said marchers had wanted "justice for the family" and "something had to be done".
> She said some of them lay in the road to make their point. "They're making their presence known because people are not happy," she added.
> *"This guy was not violent. Yes, he was involved in things but he was not an aggressive person. He had never hurt anyone."*
> 
> He was carrying a fucking hand gun.



An offence for which there is a stiff sentence which *doesn't* involve summary justice administered by adrenalin-hyped coppers with 9mms.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps you should ask yourself why someone might wish to destroy shops etc in their own community.
> 
> I can think of many incidences, recent and in the dim past where that sort of thing happened not just because people wanted to "fuck shit up", but because in some cases they felt exploited by those businesses, as customers and employees.


 
I bet you those ones smashing up Carpet Right had all ordered carpets that hadn't been delivered


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Is the Victoria Line still open to 7 Sisters?


dunno

not been down their this morning.

though i should think it will be.  Even if they have to close the high road entrance and use the siven sisters road entrance.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Tankus said:


> excuse for large scale looting , ones doing it , few would be local..... at a bet .... police should have water canon and rubber bullets issued



Scum like you would be the first to whine if you or yours took a hit from a deflected baton round, so stick your posturing up your doubtless well-lubricated shit-pipe.

BTW, "water canon"? You want to send priests in? Cunt.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

http://blog.julesmattsson.co.uk/2011/08/07/photos-tottenham-riots/

some press pics of last night


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Do police not carry batons as a matter of course then?



I wouldn't mind if they carried "traditional" batons, such as tonfas or staves, but ASPs, which the majority of police are now issued with, are a lot more likely to cause injury, what with being sprung and tip-weighted.


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> How come you're a mod now laptop?



Upgrade glitch?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> Upgrade glitch?



Have you banned anyone yet?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> What on earth is there to smile about in those comments?


i'm laughing at the pure idiocy of the comments and the lack of syntaz and spelling: 'an ethic area'


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

Mooncat said:


> What time were you there? This happened about 11:30/midnight ish when it had just kicked off. Some other mates got accused of being undercover and were threatened but by about 2 it was an equal opportunities riot


between 12 and 2, roughly. and i travelled about a bit on my bike to see what was what. lots of youth up all the backstreets as well as on the high road, as well as a roughly equal number of onlookers, fairly reflective of the demographics of the area, yes, but no hint of people being intimidated, threatened or attacked for racial reasons.

i spoke to a somali bloke who'd seen it kicking off on his tv and come to have a look, he'd been hit in the ankle by a lump of rubble that was being hurled at the police vans as they arrived, but he said that was simply because he wasn't alive to what was happening and realised he needed to move where he was standing. there were loads of the local hassidic jewish community there as well. it was a very highly charged atmosphere all round of course. but i didn't see anything kicking off, other than towards the cops.

that's not to suggest that nothing like that may not have happened, but just from what i saw from riding about and from talking to people.


----------



## Ld222 (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> i'm laughing at the pure idiocy of the comments and the lack of '*syntaz'* and spelling: 'an ethic area'



Syntax


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps you should ask yourself why someone might wish to destroy shops etc in their own community.
> 
> I can think of many incidences, recent and in the dim past where that sort of thing happened not just because people wanted to "fuck shit up", but because in some cases they felt exploited by those businesses, as customers and employees.



It comes from lack of self respect.  If you spend your life being told you're nothing, you start to believe it.  You don't value yourself therefore you don't value anything therefore smashing stuff up comes easy. Plenty of kids round here don't give a shit, coz no one ever gave a shit about them.  They'll gang rape, they'll teach their dogs to attack peoples family pets on Bruce Castle Park. Same as a depressed person smashing up their own flat, but on a larger scale.  Fuel feelings like that with mob mentality and then this happens.  I dunno if people felt exploited but the retail park is quite new and rather bling - all those shiny expensive TVs and ipads almost seemed to be taunting the kids living on the estate opposite. As I've said before it's not the first time it's been looted.  Doesn't excuse or condone their behaviour but you can see why it happens.

My mate who lives up Bruce Grove near Broadwater Farm said it was up to him and some other residents last night to stop some young Turkish kids from setting the bins on fire/breaking into the youth club.  No cops around.  These kids were just swept up in the adrenalin.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Is the Victoria Line still open to 7 Sisters?


what, the victoria line operating properly on a sunday, you'll be lucky mate


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Scum like you would be the first to whine if you or yours took a hit from a deflected baton round, so stick your posturing up your doubtless well-lubricated shit-pipe.
> 
> BTW, "water canon"? You want to send priests in? Cunt.



_Water _canon...

Dressed like this?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Facts have been released though - Bullet lodged in police radio, office taken to hospital, gun recovered from scene. It doesn't take much logical deduction to figure out that his gun was fired at a police officer *before* he was shot in the head twice.



To be fair, that's not a "logical deduction", it's a chain of assumptions.

a) We don't know the calibre of the gun recovered, or the caliber of the bullet lodged in the copper's radio, so you're making one assumption.

b) We don't know whether the gun recovered was discharged, or whether a police gun was discharged. Second assumption.

c) We don't know, if the gun recovered *was* discharged, whether it was deliberately or by accident (accidental discharges are surprisingly common). Third assumption.

So much for logical deduction, eh?



> Whilst there does seem to be previous form for something like this - Brazialian on the underground post 7/7 etc... it would seem to be rather rare.
> Unless the officer who was shot picked this guys gun up afterwards and accidentally shot himself with it then the idea that he was somehow executed in cold blood seems rather far fetched. Then again you're relying on rumours...



And you're relying on "logical deduction".


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

dp


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> _Water _canon...
> 
> Dressed like this?



My eyes!!! My eyes!!!


----------



## Mooncat (Aug 7, 2011)

Glad to hear this Paulie.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> _Water _canon...
> 
> Dressed like this?



That would be enough to send me running home


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Ld222 said:


> Syntax


 oops - i actually saw that typo and forgot to correct it


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Yeah it's usually the cash converters that go up first followed by the pawn brokerscum jewellers.



AFAIKR there are none of those in the High Road.  It's a mixture of Turkish Grocers, hardware etc, nearly all small local businesses.

Quite sad I guess but a middle aged woman I know locally was so overjoyed that they opened an Asda near Bruce Grove station. (Only about a month ago). She said to me, 'they must think that Tottenham is ok now, I'm so pleased we're getting an Asda, it means that we've really become respectable now.'

Didn't last long did it?


----------



## smokedout (Aug 7, 2011)

word on twitter says enfield's next

http://twitter.com/#!/search/Enfield


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> And I saw significantly more black and Asian people doing the looting/rioting.
> 
> This is what happens when instead of giving the man a fishing rod you give him fish and then you stop giving them fish. These are simple people who have lost the ability to function like humans, they have de-evolved into dumb, purposeless cattle and a few predatory wolves. But we are a rich society and the easiest course of action is to lob these creatures some food and shiny things to keep them out of our sight and we must recognise that they will get uppity when you forget to feed them. They are solely dependent like babies.



"De-evolved"?

I love it when people try to coach social phenomena in biological terminology. It shows them up for the idiots they are.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> http://blog.julesmattsson.co.uk/2011/08/07/photos-tottenham-riots/
> 
> some press pics of last night


That picture of the pinned down, bloody-headed (truncheoned?) guy in blue shorts - I'm sure I saw a photograph somewhere of him standng in front of someone's camera, looking on at the rioting, but I can't remember where.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> word on twitter says enfield's next
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/search/Enfield



Hackney Central is also a planned 'target'...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> "De-evolved"?
> 
> I love it when people try to coach social phenomena in biological terminology. It shows them up for the idiots they are.



This... _Creatures, babies?_ FFS!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> I wish it was. We have generations who have been lost because it was easier to give them benefits than to educate and develop. Now we cut the benefits further and we have riots.



Nothing to do with progressively removing the possibility of meaningful further education, then? Because from where I sit I can see a further education sector that's been residualised over the last 30 years to a degree where it is frankly dying on its' arse.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Are you standing in for ern?
> 
> Instead of shouting 'liberal' at people, why not provide your own analysis? Or do you just think these are bad people who need to be hunted down and punished?


If he were standing in for ern, wouldn't he have to post "liberals, lol"?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> The culture of being dependent on benefits has created conditions that, when combined with other factors, has resulted in the scenes we saw last night.



So how do you explain the occurrence of such incidents prior to the welfare state, hmm?


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> So how do you explain the occurrence of such incidents prior to the welfare state, hmm?


Why does no one ever think about this?


----------



## trabant (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> That picture of the pinned down, bloody-headed (truncheoned?) guy in blue shorts - I'm sure I saw a photograph somewhere of him standng in front of someone's camera, looking on at the rioting, but I can't remember where.



is that the same as the guy here in the third picture? At first look I thought he'd lost an arm...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

Billie Piper said:
			
		

> And I saw significantly more black and Asian people doing the looting/rioting.


 So you saw a White people looting/rioting as well then? How do you feel about that? Have they just fallen in with the wrong crowd?


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> word on twitter says enfield's next
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/search/Enfield



I like the organisaton, timed meets, instructions on what to wear/carry..


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> So you saw a White people looting/rioting as well then? How do you feel about that? Have they just fallen in with the wrong crowd?



probably been listening to that hip-hop stuff


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

"Peaceful demo been hijacked by a small minority"  ...


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

Hey Billie, the majority of rioters/looters in Bristol were white, discuss.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 7, 2011)

Someone just posted this on facebook:

http://www.thelondondailynews.com/p...wners-form-local-protection-units-p-5381.html

*



			Shop owners along Wood Green, Turnpike Lane and Green Lanes, the majority of which are of Kurdish or Turkish owned have formed local protection units following riots in Tottenham which have spilled over to Wood Green.
		
Click to expand...

*


> "We do not have any trust in the local police, our shops are next on the target list by the thugs who have ransacked Tottenham, we will protect our property", said  a leading member of the Green Lanes "unit".
> 
> Shop owners have been seen by London Daily News reporters carrying crow bars, and other objects in case of attacks.




Thoughts anyone ...


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

> word on twitter says enfield's next
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/search/Enfield



Here we go again  wait until night time kids...


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 7, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Someone just posted this on facebook:
> 
> http://www.thelondondailynews.com/p...wners-form-local-protection-units-p-5381.html
> 
> Thoughts anyone ...



If they do Wood Green it will kick off bigstyle?


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

The rioters are now in *Enfield* and Edmonton... so tweets say..


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Hackney Central is also a planned 'target'...


on what basis, racial profiling?


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> To be fair, that's not a "logical deduction", it's a chain of assumptions.
> 
> a) We don't know the calibre of the gun recovered, or the caliber of the bullet lodged in the copper's radio, so you're making one assumption.
> 
> b) We don't know whether the gun recovered was discharged, or whether a police gun was discharged. Second assumption.



Fairly logical assumptions all the same tbh... Its highly unlikely that the round came from another police officer. Especially as they were carrying H&K carbines - I doubt the round would have been stopped by a plastic police radio if it had.



> c) We don't know, if the gun recovered *was* discharged, whether it was deliberately or by accident (accidental discharges are surprisingly common). Third assumption.
> 
> So much for logical deduction, eh?



In order to 'accidentally' discharge a round into a police officer you'd have to have at least pulled the gun out and pointed it in their direction. Whether firing it was an 'accident' or not then becomes irrelevant as having someone point a gun and shoot it at one of your colleagues is reason enough for the police to shoot back. Given that he was shot in the head twice it isn't exactly hard to deduce who shot first either.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> The rioters are now in *Enfield* and Edmonton... so tweets say..


Why are you talking like there is an actual 'mob' roaming the streets?


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://lockerz.com/s/127482259 Ffffffff! in Enfield...


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Why are you talking like there is an actual 'mob' roaming the streets?



I am only replying what others say have ago at them not me....


----------



## smokedout (Aug 7, 2011)

hard to say, seems confirmed that shops in enfield have closed early and high police presence, no clear signs of any action yet


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> on what basis, racial profiling?



I imagine, given the history of it kicking off there before, plus the fact the police are thin on the ground today, they have identified this as a possible flashpoint...my neighbour has been told to standby as  he may be called into work at any moment.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> http://lockerz.com/s/127482259 Ffffffff! in Enfield...



It's not exactly a mob is it, it's not even enough police for them to be a mob.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> I am only replying what others say have ago at them not me....



I wasn't having a go at you...I asked you a question. You have now answered, thank you.

Using terms like 'the rioters' suggests there is ONE set of people....I don't think that there is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Why does no one ever think about this?



Because it's easier to not engage their brain, but rather just regurgitate their prejudices. Tiresome, isn't it?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

trabant said:


> is that the same as the guy here in the third picture? At first look I thought he'd lost an arm...


Looks like it. There's at least one more foto of him on the web that I've seen today.
 Is that a tourniquet around his arm? What happened to him in the time between those two pictures?


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 7, 2011)

Guardian reporting this quote from Paul Deller from the Metropolitan Police Federation:

'*Morale among the police officers dealing with this incident, and within the Police Service as a whole, is at its lowest level ever due to the constant attacks on them by the home secretary and the government* in the form of the Winsor and Hutton reviews into police pay and conditions. *Despite the officers feeling let down by their political leaders*, they still acted with extreme bravery and professionalism in the face of horrific violence shown towards them while trying to protect the community and the buildings in the local area.'

So the police are certainly taking the opportunity to stick it to the politicians.


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> http://lockerz.com/s/127482259 Ffffffff! in Enfield...



photo doesn't really show much I'll wait for confirmed reports. I did like the one with the young version of Kat Slater however..


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 7, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Guardian reporting this quote from Paul Deller from the Metropolitan Police Federation:
> 
> '*Morale among the police officers dealing with this incident, and within the Police Service as a whole, is at its lowest level ever due to the constant attacks on them by the home secretary and the government* in the form of the Winsor and Hutton reviews into police pay and conditions. *Despite the officers feeling let down by their political leaders*, they still acted with extreme bravery and professionalism in the face of horrific violence shown towards them while trying to protect the community and the buildings in the local area.'
> 
> So the police are certainly taking the opportunity to stick it to the politicians.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Fairly logical assumptions all the same tbh ...<snip>



Police have too much form for telling cynical self-serving lies about people they've killed to treat the 'facts', as they've briefed them to their partners-in-corruption in the media, as being in any way reliable ...

The 'facts' may well turn out to be totally different when/if they're subjected to proper rules of evidence.


----------



## 74drew (Aug 7, 2011)

Interview here with a representative of the protestors casts a little light on yesterdays events and the actual shooting.



He reckons the gun was in a sock when they found it.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 7, 2011)

Does anyone else think the thing about the gun and the bullet in the radio sounds dodgy as fuck? Reminds me of the old myths about bibles and zippos stopping bullets in the trenches in WW1.

The way it's been reported it sounds like the copper didn't even know the bullet had hit his radio - now I'm no ballistics expert but I can state with a fair amount of confidence that if someone tried to shoot me and a radio (presumably either on my chest or my belt) stopped the bullet I'd have known about it immediately. And the pool of piss I'd be standing in and the brown patch on the seat of my trousers would soon alert everyone else present lol

Maybe I'm letting my inner conspiracy theorist out of the bag here, but I wouldn't be surprised if the bullet was put in the radio after the fact in order to justify the execution of a man who hadn't even stood trial.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Fairly logical assumptions all the same tbh... Its highly unlikely that the round came from another police officer. Especially as they were carrying H&K carbines - I doubt the round would have been stopped by a plastic police radio if it had.



Oh for fuck's sake!  Why does everyone who's seen a "Die Hard" film think they know anything about firearms?

1) H & K MP5 carbine uses the same standard 9mm round as any 9mm pistol (including the pistols used by police). It makes good logistic sense.

2) Have you ever hefted a radio pack? they're heavy and solid. It is dense enough to stop a bullet.

3) We don't know, as yet, whether the bullet that lodged in the radio pack was a deflection, an aimed round or what.



> In order to 'accidentally' discharge a round into a police officer you'd have to have at least pulled the gun out and pointed it in their direction.



You're razor-sharp, aren't you?



> Whether firing it was an 'accident' or not then becomes irrelevant as having someone point a gun and shoot it at one of your colleagues is reason enough for the police to shoot back. Given that he was shot in the head twice it isn't exactly hard to deduce who shot first either.



More assumptions masquerading (thinly) as "logical deduction".

1) We don't know whether the bullet was "aimed" *at all*.

2) It's *as likely* that the police would have "returned fire" had the gun been discharged _per se_, as had it been discharged *at* them.

With reference to your deductions, do yourself a favour, don't bother.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

I'm all for sticking things to the politicians.

Looks like enfield is battening the hatches a bit but nothing actually kicking off despite claims that shops are being looted and

Photo: *Enfield* McDonalds on fire?! http://tumblr.com/xwp3y97822


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 7, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Maybe I'm letting my inner conspiracy theorist out of the bag here, but I wouldn't be surprised if the bullet was put in the radio after the fact in order to justify the execution of a man who hadn't even stood trial.



If it were placed against a hard surface and then shot, that would certainly explain why it didn't pass through the radio...


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Guardian reporting this quote from Paul Deller from the Metropolitan Police Federation:
> 
> '*Morale among the police officers dealing with this incident, and within the Police Service as a whole, is at its lowest level ever due to the constant attacks on them by the home secretary and the government* in the form of the Winsor and Hutton reviews into police pay and conditions. *Despite the officers feeling let down by their political leaders*, they still acted with extreme bravery and professionalism in the face of horrific violence shown towards them while trying to protect the community and the buildings in the local area.'
> 
> So the police are certainly taking the opportunity to stick it to the politicians.


well, having seen at first hand the way that the police seemed content to hold control of 200 metres of the high road (which includes the cop shop, a scene of repeated demonstrations and disorders going back years) and made no real effort at all to stop the "small minority of criminals" (as the met police spokesmen called them) from first burning the cop car just as 2 tv camera crews arrived, nor intervening in tottenham techno park and wood green, despite having a containment strategy in place as well apparently, one can't help be suspicious that, subsequent to the earlier rioting kicking off, they decided to make a point in relation to proposed budgetary cuts by simply standing back and showing the media and politicians what the result would be?


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> one can't help be suspicious that, subsequent to the earlier rioting kicking off, they decided to make a point in relation to proposed budgetary cuts by simply standing back and showing the media and politicians what the result would be?



Quite. Exactly the point I was trying to make with my earlier conspiracy-theorist post. Glad it's not just me who thinks that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> well, having seen at first hand the way that the police seemed content to hold control of 200 metres of the high road (which includes the cop shop, a scene of repeated demonstrations and disorders going back years) and made no real effort at all to stop the "small minority of criminals" (as the met police spokesmen called them) from first burning the cop car just as 2 tv camera crews arrived, nor intervening in tottenham techno park and wood green, despite having a containment strategy in place as well apparently, one can't help be suspicious that, subsequent to the earlier rioting kicking off, they decided to make a point in relation to proposed budgetary cuts by simply standing back and showing the media and politicians what the result would be?


i also noticed on one of the videos on the bbc website there was a fit team there. what they'll be doing is going through cctv and their own footage and making arrests in the future. but, if he was called in and i imagine he was, this is *another* bob broadhurst car-crash of a police response.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 7, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/07/nick-cohen-recession-misery nicely timed commentary piece title


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 7, 2011)

No revolutions till after Boomtown please.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

The cop at the back in the picture here is FIT http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/galler...y-riots-pictures#/?picture=377652671&index=13


----------



## Stay Beautiful (Aug 7, 2011)

Blimey, just been up Fore Street and some went up that far. A couple of shops with their windows smashed it but nothing worth looting in Lower Edmonton!


----------



## WWWeed (Aug 7, 2011)

The Met Police said:
			
		

> A major investigation team has been launched by the Met following the disorder in Tottenham last night - the investigation is codenamed Operation Withern.
> 
> The team is being led by Detective Superintendent John Sweeney, and is made up of detectives from the Homicide and Serious Crime Command, specialist investigators from the Public Order Branch and police support staff.
> 
> ...



So expect to get hassled by police in the tottenham/edmonton area


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Stay Beautiful said:


> Blimey, just been up Fore Street and some went up that far. A couple of shops with their windows smashed it but nothing worth looting in Lower Edmonton!


yeh except for travelcards to get out of there


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

I read that Vision Express (Tottenham) been broken into and I have this vision of the guy testing their own eye test and seeing which one to nick


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2011)

The remnants of the former Co-op/Carpetrite building look like they'll have to be demolished. A great shame for the people who lived in the flats there.


----------



## Corax (Aug 7, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> This is quite an interesting quote from the met commander


Is it just me, or do others read this type of thing and immediately think it's a political statement to secure their funding?


----------



## dylans (Aug 7, 2011)

Numerous reports in the Guardian point to two incidents that sparked this off. The first, the shooting that led to a demonstration and then the police kicking the shit out of a 16 year old girl which seems to have sparked the riot. We don't know the real story of the shooting yet but the second incident of the police going in heavy and beating up a girl rings true. If so, the cops got a response to their brutality that they weren't expecting.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2011)

I think in light of recent events, the met has more to worry about than 'funding'. Wouldn't surprise me if there's a restructuring of the Met due to all the corruption scandals.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> I read that Vision Express (Tottenham) been broken into and I have this vision of the guy testing their own eye test and seeing which one to nick



should have gone to specsavers


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> 1) H & K MP5 carbine uses the same standard 9mm round as any 9mm pistol (including the pistols used by police). It makes good logistic sense.



The H&K carbines they use aren't always 9mm actually and even then the caliber of the round doesn't mean the effect is the same as a pistol.



> You're razor-sharp, aren't you?



I think you're clutching at straws tbh... Yes there is probably less than a 1% chance the police somehow accidentally shot themselves whilst then proceeding to fire two well aimed shots into a guy's head it would seem much more logical that perhaps the known gangster, with a gun, fired at the police before being shot in the head.


----------



## lighterthief (Aug 7, 2011)

dylans said:


> We don't know the real story of the shooting yet but the second incident of the police going in heavy and beating up a girl rings true.


Does it?  Have you got a source for the report of this incident?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

dylans said:


> Numerous reports in the Guardian point to two incidents that sparked this off. The first, the shooting that led to a demonstration and then the police kicking the shit out of a 16 year old girl which seems to have sparked the riot. We don't know the real story of the shooting yet but the second incident of the police going in heavy and beating up a girl rings true. If so, the cops got a response to their brutality that they weren't expecting.


I think that the fact of the young girl being beaten by the cops appears to be true, even the MoS is reporting that she was set upon by about 15 officers with batons and shields, with some questions over whether she threw something as she approached them.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> AFAIKR there are none of those in the High Road. It's a mixture of Turkish Grocers, hardware etc, nearly all small local businesses.
> 
> Quite sad I guess but a middle aged woman I know locally was so overjoyed that they opened an Asda near Bruce Grove station. (Only about a month ago). She said to me, 'they must think that Tottenham is ok now, I'm so pleased we're getting an Asda, it means that we've really become respectable now.'
> 
> Didn't last long did it?


I remember people saying the same about Brixton when McDonalds came to town.


----------



## immigrantx (Aug 7, 2011)

> We don't know the real story of the shooting yet but the second incident of the police going in heavy and beating up a girl rings true.





lighterthief said:


> Does it?  Have you got a source for the report of this incident?



The BBC interviewed someone early on who described it. Rings true to me as well. 

No justification for riots and looting IMO. But assuming true, deffo a direct cause of situation getting out of hand and a clear mistake. 

Listen to the guy speak, sounds like an honest account to me. 

Recording of BBC  news interviewing a guy on the street
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcwUyZ68C0k&feature=player_embedded

Pathetic from the beeb that they don't continue to report this and try to get to the bottom of it


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> The H&K carbines they use aren't always 9mm actually and even then the caliber of the round doesn't mean the effect is the same as a pistol.



H & K make carbines in a number of calibres, including 7.62 NATO and 5.56 NATO.

However, the police are issued ONLY with 9mm H & K MP5 carbines, just as they're only issued with 9mm Glock 17 pistols. The only "non-standard" firearms held by the Met are scoped rifles in 7.62/.308 and (allegedly) .50 Browning.

As for "effect", the only difference between a 9mm round fired from a carbine over a 9mm round fired from a pistol will be improved accuracy via the longer barrel length. The only variable would be if substantially-different rounds were used.

Guess what, the Met uses the same 9mm rounds for both weapons. Same powder charge, same bullet weight, the lot.



> I think you're clutching at straws tbh... Yes there is probably less than a 1% chance the police somehow accidentally shot themselves whilst then proceeding to fire two well aimed shots into a guy's head it would seem much more logical that perhaps the known gangster, with a gun, fired at the police before being shot in the head.



I'm not trying to make a case, I'm merely pointing out that your "logical deductions" are actually assumptions on your part, dressed up to resemble informed comment.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> The H&K carbines they use aren't always 9mm actually and even then the caliber of the round doesn't mean the effect is the same as a pistol.
> 
> I think you're clutching at straws tbh... Yes there is probably less than a 1% chance the police somehow accidentally shot themselves whilst then proceeding to fire two well aimed shots into a guy's head it would seem much more logical that perhaps the known gangster, with a gun, fired at the police before being shot in the head.



Frankly the whole thing about the gun/bullet in radio stinks of the brown stuff - I can smell it from here. It _might_ be true, but then again I _might_ find a £50 note on the way to the bus stop. Anyone with half a brain will have taken it with a pinch of salt but I suppose it helps confirm your prejudices so please carry on. I'll let you know how I get on with the £50 when I go to town tomorrow morning.


----------



## dylans (Aug 7, 2011)

lighterthief said:


> Does it? Have you got a source for the report of this incident?



Several accounts of the incident by a number different people and eyewitnesses on the Guardian site today


----------



## dylans (Aug 7, 2011)

> No justification for riots and looting IMO. But assuming true, deffo a direct cause of situation getting out of hand and a clear mistake.



Course it is. A riot is an act of collective rage and frustration, They are rarely considered or thought out and often self destructive but as Martin Luther King said, " A riot is the voice of the unheard" and I for one am not going to join in with the sanctimonious "condemnations" that we will hear all over the media. The police provoked this and they got a response. Good. We need more


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

lock your doors! hearing of 100 plus teens wearing hoodies and masks gathering at a McDonalds in Enfield #riots #tottenhamriots I know I been hearing things all day.. even a rumour of Stratford being targeted...


----------



## lighterthief (Aug 7, 2011)

dylans said:


> Several accounts of the incident by a number different people and eyewitnesses on the Guardian site today


Is the same girl that was also reportedly throwing stones at the police?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

oh dear, is it kicking off in brixton? i've seen a couple of pics on twitter. something's certainly going on


----------



## CNT36 (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> The H&K carbines they use aren't always 9mm actually and even then the caliber of the round doesn't mean the effect is the same as a pistol.
> 
> I think you're clutching at straws tbh... Yes there is probably less than a 1% chance the police somehow accidentally shot themselves whilst then proceeding to fire two well aimed shots into a guy's head it would seem much more logical that perhaps the known gangster, with a gun, fired at the police before being shot in the head.



Known Gangster? He's a known offender but A quick Google shows when he is described by a newspaper as a gangster or known gangster it is surrounded by quotation marks. When he is described as a suspected Gangster their are no quotation marks. I think this is probably significant. His cousin was recently killed and words used to describe him by the family and such quoted include "down" and "paranoid".  Some accounts say he was off to get revenge for his cousin and that he is part of a gang. This may be true but if someone is paranoid and possibly depressed there are other reasons he may of been carrying the gun.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 7, 2011)

Copper throws hissy fit re: pay and conditions:
http://responseplod.blogspot.com/

Interesting comment at the end wrt the Notting Hill carnival ...


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

How do you follow treading tread? I can't find it on tweet...


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> How do you follow treading tread? I can't find it on tweet...


i don't follow trending topics!


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 7, 2011)

dylans said:


> Course it is. A riot is an act of collective rage and frustration, They are rarely considered or thought out and often self destructive but as Martin Luther King said, " A riot is the voice of the unheard" and I for one am not going to join in with the sanctimonious "condemnations" that we will hear all over the media. The police provoked this and they got a response. Good. We need more


Send us your address, we can organise a mobile riot squad for you.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 7, 2011)

CNT36 said:


> Known Gangster? He's a known offender but A quick Google shows when he is described by a newspaper as a gangster or known gangster it is surrounded by quotation marks. When he is described as a suspected Gangster their are no quotation marks. I think this is probably significant. His cousin was recently killed and words used to describe him by the family and such quoted include "down" and "paranoid". Some accounts say he was off to get revenge for his cousin and that he is part of a gang. This may be true but if someone is paranoid and possibly depressed there are other reasons he may of been carrying the gun.


It's that they shot him in the face under arrest. That's the rumour.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

#enfield #*brixton* #stratford  It maybe Brixton ... maybe ...


----------



## Giles (Aug 7, 2011)

The rioters are just low-lifes on the make.

Some bad boy getting shot by the cops "causes" people to have to go out, set their own neighbourhood on fire and loot shops? What a laugh......

Giles..


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> #enfield #*brixton* #stratford  It maybe Brixton ... maybe ...


Just follow the right people. Not everyone bothers posting tags. I never do.
Anyway, looks like relatively minor disorder in Brixton. Just a bit of rowdiness.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 7, 2011)

fuck off


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Giles said:


> The rioters are just low-lifes on the make.
> 
> Some bad boy getting shot by the cops "causes" people to have to go out, set their own neighbourhood on fire and loot shops? What a laugh......
> 
> Giles..



This is definately a time of polarisation. So watch yer mouth.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Giles, why is it that people who propose euthanasia as a social solution  never use it themselves?

Go on, be obliging for once...


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2011)

How can it be justifiable for the homes and businesses of innocent people to be destroyed?

Explain it to me.


----------



## Giles (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> This is definately a time of polarisation. So watch yer mouth.



A "time of polarisation"? What does that mean, then?

A bunch of low-lifes have succeeded in trashing their own neighbourhood. Win! Still, at least a lucky few got some free trainers and a big telly out of it.

Giles..


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

CNT36 said:


> Known Gangster? He's a known offender but A quick Google shows when he is described by a newspaper as a gangster or known gangster it is surrounded by quotation marks. When he is described as a suspected Gangster their are no quotation marks. I think this is probably significant. His cousin was recently killed and words used to describe him by the family and such quoted include "down" and "paranoid". Some accounts say he was off to get revenge for his cousin and that he is part of a gang. This may be true but if someone is paranoid and possibly depressed there are other reasons he may of been carrying the gun.



Sorry I should have perhaps said 'alleged gangster'. Supposedly 'Starrish mark' from the 'Man Dem' gang. Allegedly on the way to seek revenge for the killing of his cousin and intercepted by police from operation trident. Would certainly explain why the family members are in disbelief - could presume that perhaps he doesn't carry a gun normally but might have acquired one for this alleged revenge attack he was purportedly on his way to carry out. Presumably some tout or other tipped off the police and prompted this operation.

(yes and before someone quotes me several times I am making lots of assumptions here - though I'd also wager that I'm likely not far off the mark.)


----------



## Giles (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Giles, why is it that people who propose euthanasia as a social solution never use it themselves?
> 
> Go on, be obliging for once...



It would be worth using on many of the useless oxygen thieves out wrecking their neighbourhood last night. There's no need for them.

Giles..


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

equationgirl said:


> How can it be justifiable for the homes and businesses of innocent people to be destroyed?
> 
> Explain it to me.



Friendly fire.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Friendly fire.



Amazing how the far right and left have the same intolerant attitude toward people's lives when it comes to pursuing their ideology.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Giles said:


> It would be worth using on many of the useless oxygen thieves out wrecking their neighbourhood last night. There's no need for them.
> 
> Giles..


Just had to quote this. Will come back to it later...


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Amazing how the far right and left have the same intolerant attitude toward people's lives when it comes to pursuing their ideology.


You have no sense of irony whatsoever...


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://twitter.com/#!/search/enfield !


----------



## BigTom (Aug 7, 2011)

Tarahwelsh Tarah Welsh  

Police running away from rioters in Enfield. Terrifying. yfrog.com/kirejuyj yfrog.com/h8jsicvj
actually looks like something is/has kicked off in enfield.. anyone know enfield confirm this is the high street? She's saying shops windows put in with concrete blocks

Tarahwelsh Tarah Welsh  

Riot police have arrived but looks like all rioters have got away- way too late although this has been in the cards yfrog.com/gz184goj


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Tarahwelsh Tarah Welsh
> 
> Police running away from rioters in Enfield. Terrifying. yfrog.com/kirejuyj yfrog.com/h8jsicvj
> actually looks like something is/has kicked off in enfield.. anyone know enfield confirm this is the high street? She's saying shops windows put in with concrete blocks
> ...


 
hmmm earlier today they were releasing statements saying that they were monitoring social media and that people shouldn't believe rumours etc...

Seems the Enfield rumors were true (or turned into a self fulfilling prophecy)


----------



## BigTom (Aug 7, 2011)

I think the latter, there was def. nothing going on there earlier, multiple reports and photos, seems to have kicked off just now


----------



## kenny g (Aug 7, 2011)

http://lockerz.com/s/127511428

police swing into action against enfield riot


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 7, 2011)

Giles said:


> It would be worth using on many of the useless oxygen thieves out wrecking their neighbourhood last night. There's no need for them.
> 
> Giles..



You come across as a bit of a useless eater yourself Giles - why not go play with the traffic?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 7, 2011)

Giles has long been a reactionary dullard with a hard on for euthanasia ideas- file under 'twat'


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 7, 2011)

Sorry, more Twitter stuff:
'channel 4 are reporting that the gun duggan had was not fired and shots came from another officers weapon.'
Edit: Are they?! Anyone?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> You have no sense of irony whatsoever...



Yeah your post patently reeked of it.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> oh dear, is it kicking off in brixton? i've seen a couple of pics on twitter. something's certainly going on



What was happening in the pics?

I was outside the albert about an hour ago when lots of people suddenly started running up towards the main road, firstly a bit more panicked then generally gravitating away.  The soundsystem went off.  A few minutes later the soundsystem was back on again. I'm going with minor scuffle where a couple of people started running and others joined in.  But I never actually got a report.   Of course when someone asked what happened a woman behind me said ''I think there was a big riot down there'' And so the rumour mill begins.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> What was happening in the pics?
> 
> I was outside the albert about an hour ago when lots of people suddenly started running up towards the main road, firstly a bit more panicked then generally gravitating away. The soundsystem went off. A few minutes later the soundsystem was back on again. I'm going with minor scuffle where a couple of people started running and others joined in. But I never actually got a report. Of course when someone asked what happened a woman behind me said ''I think there was a big riot down there'' And so the rumour mill begins.



aaronjohnpeters Aaron Peters  

police out in force in Brixton http://bit.ly/r3uVca #brixton #tottenham
Seen another similar pic of lots of police under that bridge


----------



## two sheds (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> when someone asked what happened a woman behind me said ''I think there was a big riot down there''



Oooh was there? I've been expecting it down there.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Sorry I should have perhaps said 'alleged gangster'. Supposedly 'Starrish mark' from the 'Man Dem' gang. Allegedly on the way to seek revenge for the killing of his cousin and intercepted by police from operation trident. Would certainly explain why the family members are in disbelief - could presume that perhaps he doesn't carry a gun normally but might have acquired one for this alleged revenge attack he was purportedly on his way to carry out. Presumably some tout or other tipped off the police and prompted this operation.
> 
> (yes and before someone quotes me several times I am making lots of assumptions here - though I'd also wager that I'm likely not far off the mark.)



have you passed on these insights to the police I mean seeing as you're so sure and are a local within the community and all I'm sure they'd welcome anything which and help the IPCC investigation clear their name...

Or is it you're a nasty gobby nomark who's shit racist opinions are showing their true colours...

it's the later isn't it...


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

Fuck me, the old bill are begging for a riot.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Planktonization Short Everything  

Looters in *Enfield* Town bombarding riot police with union-jack cushions looted from PastTimes Shop
Best Tweet yet...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Sorry I should have perhaps said 'alleged gangster'. Supposedly 'Starrish mark' from the 'Man Dem' gang. Allegedly on the way to seek revenge for the killing of his cousin and intercepted by police from operation trident. Would certainly explain why the family members are in disbelief - could presume that perhaps he doesn't carry a gun normally but might have acquired one for this alleged revenge attack he was purportedly on his way to carry out. Presumably some tout or other tipped off the police and prompted this operation.
> 
> (yes and before someone quotes me several times I am making lots of assumptions here - though I'd also wager that I'm likely not far off the mark.)



have you passed on these insights to the police I mean seeing as you're so sure and are a local within the community and all I'm sure they'd welcome anything which and help the IPCC investigation clear their name...

Or is it you're a nasty gobby nomark who's shit racist opinions are showing their true colours...

it's the later isn't it...


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

Fuck me, the old bill are begging for a riot.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2011)

This guy has some good Enfield updates: @journodave


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> Fuck me, the old bill are begging for a riot.



Of course!


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

follow http://twitter.com/#!/tarahwelsh she's there...


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Friendly fire.



Oh right, that's okay then. 

Twat.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Sorry I should have perhaps said 'alleged gangster'. Supposedly 'Starrish mark' from the 'Man Dem' gang. Allegedly on the way to seek revenge for the killing of his cousin and intercepted by police from operation trident. Would certainly explain why the family members are in disbelief - could presume that perhaps he doesn't carry a gun normally but might have acquired one for this alleged revenge attack he was purportedly on his way to carry out. Presumably some tout or other tipped off the police and prompted this operation.
> 
> (yes and before someone quotes me several times I am making lots of assumptions here - though I'd also wager that I'm likely not far off the mark.)



have you passed on these insights to the police I mean seeing as you're so sure and are a local within the community and all I'm sure they'd welcome anything which and help the IPCC investigation clear their name...

Or is it you're a nasty gobby nomark who's shit racist opinions are showing their true colours...

it's the later isn't it...


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

follow http://twitter.com/#!/tarahwelsh she's there...


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

People on twitter. reporting with confidence that there are riots in Brixton.  FFS.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 7, 2011)

Enfeild


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

People on twitter. reporting with confidence that there are riots in Brixton.  FFS.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 7, 2011)

Einfield


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

People on twitter. reporting with confidence that there are riots in Brixton.  FFS.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

Old Bill vehicle apparently trashed in Brixton...

http://twitpic.com/62k8m0/full


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> People on twitter. reporting with confidence that there are riots in Brixton. FFS.


Is it you, starting riots in the hope of looting the cake shop?


----------



## skitr (Aug 7, 2011)

Seen it in two different places now Channel 4 reported Duggan's gun hadn't been discharged. Any news on this?


----------



## BigTom (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> Old Bill vehicle apparently trashed in Brixton...
> 
> http://twitpic.com/62k8m0/full



No - that;'s in Enfield, @leninology has said he can def. confirm it's enfield high street - I imagine some posters on here will know the street as well.  Knowing @leninology from tweets and that he lives in the area, I'd trust that


----------



## Dan U (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> Old Bill vehicle apparently trashed in Brixton...
> 
> http://twitpic.com/62k8m0/full



also seen that tagged as being enfield..


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

Fair dues.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

arghh it all kicking off with police cars/vans being kicked at and rubble being thrown on the streets...


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> arghh it all kicking off with police cars/vans being kicked at and rubble being thrown on the streets...



Where?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> arghh it all kicking off with police cars/vans being kicked at and rubble being thrown on the streets...


All kicking off _where?_


----------



## BigTom (Aug 7, 2011)

yiannimize Yianni Charalambous

Its a war zone. #enfield http://yfrog.com/gy5n1vfj

yiannimize Yianni Charalambous

Its true,that's a pic some1 just sent me. London is mad. I am hearing sirens constantly. #warzone http://yfrog.com/khmm9fcj

Clear shot of a shop in the background of the second one that doesn't look like a chain shop but I can't read it well enough, perhaps someone here recognises it and can confirm 100% that's enfield


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 7, 2011)

[quote="lopsidedbunny"rubble being thrown on the streets...[/quote]

Prove it.


----------



## skitr (Aug 7, 2011)

The bullet found in the coppers radio was a police issue bullet according to Channel 4 and Guardian.


----------



## Tankus (Aug 7, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> This is quite an interesting quote from the met commander



wants more funding


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

skitr said:


> The bullet found in the coppers radio was a police issue bullet according to Channel 4 and Guardian.



Did the filth claim it was shot by old matey?


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 7, 2011)

Journalists now reporting that the bullet lodged in the police radio was police-issue.
Edit: Ah, I see other people posted while I was typing. Old news.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 7, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live#block-44

Forensics show that the bullet lodged in the police radio was *police* issue.. so whoever back there that VP was arguing with who was so cocksure about things needs to have a think about the assumptions s/he was making

e2a: snap x 3


----------



## kenny g (Aug 7, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-video  full on


----------



## gawkrodger (Aug 7, 2011)

Guardian reporting that the bullet in the police radio is in fact from a police weapon.

This looks like it's going to run.

Oh, and a Police beamer apparently in Enfield

http://yfrog.com/gy5n1vfj


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

Seems like rumours to me


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> have you passed on these insights to the police I mean seeing as you're so sure and are a local within the community and all I'm sure they'd welcome anything which and help the IPCC investigation clear their name...
> 
> Or is it you're a nasty gobby nomark who's shit racist opinions are showing their true colours...
> 
> it's the later isn't it...



Or I'm just joining in a discussion, and sharing an opinion about a topic that affects the city I live in...

If you don't agree with my views then that's fine, resorting to insults or banding around accusations of racism isn't really on.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> People on twitter. reporting with confidence that there are riots in Brixton. FFS.



Yeah seen that, and there's a photo doing the rounds of a riot in Brixton as well.  Do people not read previous tweets to see that nothing's happening?  There's a reason that site is called Twitter - it's full of twits.  Apologies to anyone on here who uses it.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

Enfield: http://www.enfieldindependent.co.uk...5.Police_car_trashed_by_Enfield_Town_rioters/


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> Guardian reporting that the bullet in the police radio is in fact from a police weapon.



 I'm now a bit speechless....


----------



## N_igma (Aug 7, 2011)

Cunts couldn't riot if they tried.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Sorry for triple (?) post. Xenforo is fucking with me. It's only when you know different that you realise just how much on twitter is DEFINITELY shit.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

skitr said:


> The bullet found in the coppers radio was a police issue bullet according to Channel 4 and Guardian.





> 7.35pm: Initial ballistics tests on the bullet that lodged in a police officer's radio when Mark Duggan died on Thursday night show it was a police issue bullet, the Guardian understands.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://yfrog.com/kirejuyj Plods following Youf http://yfrog.com/h8jsicvj Youf in Enfield http://yfrog.com/h7pazzzj Police blocking roads http://yfrog.com/kfjkfuoj HMV afterwards http://yfrog.com/gy5n1vfj police car getting nailed http://yfrog.com/kf4rlauj police car


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

Shops too: http://www.enfieldindependent.co.uk/news/localnews/9182572.Shops_targeted_by_rioters__says_witness/


> SHOPS have been targeted by rioters in Enfield Town, according to a witness in a flat above one of the properties.
> BBC reporter Tarah Welsh, who said she was visiting family, said concrete slabs were being thrown through shop windows in the main shopping streets.
> She said on Twitter: “Police car wrecked in Enfield - most rioters looked under 16, lots of young girls throwing concrete slabs through shop windows.”
> Riot police have forced around 50 people with hoods over their faces along Southbury Road via Queens Street after clashing with them outside Tesco.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> I'm now a bit speechless....



Maybe next time you'll find out the facts rather than resorting to knee jerk reactions based only on prejudice, eh?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Nipsla reports there was another 'teenagers running incident' but all fine.


----------



## roctrevezel (Aug 7, 2011)

Number of arrests from last night has reached 55, (Sky News ticker tape.)


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 7, 2011)

So a copper was a radio width away from shooting and possibly killing another copper.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

> The revelation will fuel the fury in Tottenham about the killing of Mark Duggan by armed officers.
> It also undermines suggestions that there was an exchange of fire between Duggan and the police before he died.
> The bullet which was found lodged in the radio of one of the officers at the scene is still undergoing forensic tests. But reliable sources have said the first ballistics examinations suggested it was a police issue bullet.
> These are very distinct as the Metropolitan Police uses dum dum type hollowed out bullets designed not to pass through an object.
> The early suggestion from the IPCC was that the Met officers had returned fire after someone in the minicab opened fire. But the result of the ballistics early test suggests both shots fired came from the police.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live


----------



## skitr (Aug 7, 2011)

Only read the first bit and was shocked by that, now read right to the end. So he didn't even fire a gun.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 7, 2011)

Would have been killed by a hollowed out dumb-dumb bullet, to boot.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 7, 2011)

Not really surprising, is it. Police bullet was the first query which came to my mind when I read about this.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

So, once again the police got their mates in the press to put out a pack of cynical self-serving lies about someone they'd killed ...

What a fucking surprise ...


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 7, 2011)

I don't have time to read the whole thread, any more about the filth beating a sixteen year old lass for being a bit gobby?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 7, 2011)

To be honest the only shit thing about the riot is no coppers got the chop broadwater farm style.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 7, 2011)

Has anyone seen this yet?

Initial ballistics tests on the bullet that lodged in a police officer's radio when Mark Duggan died on Thursday night show it was a police issue bullet, the Guardian understands.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live#block-44


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 7, 2011)

Was the guy killed definitely carrying a gun?


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

So no T.V. new coverage then strange that....


----------



## roctrevezel (Aug 7, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Would have been killed by a hollowed out dumb-dumb bullet, to boot.



The press really do come out with some ill informed bollocks, personally I will wait for the forensics report.
Hollow point is a standard kind of round, states hollow point on the box. Designed not to do a through and through but stay in  the body.
A criminal is just as likely to have hollow point ammo as the plod is, because it is more readily available.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://yfrog.com/h3lh9dbj raiding HMV...


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 7, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I don't have time to read the whole thread, any more about the filth beating a sixteen year old lass for being a bit gobby?



One report suggests she approached police lines to remonstrate with them. Another that she threw stones.


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> Did the filth claim it was shot by old matey?



Not in so many words, that I've seen.

They said they found a gun in the cab.

Later, it was said (unoficially) that they'd found a bullet in a cop radio. Everyone left to draw their own conclusions.

They clearly realise that no-one believes a word they say when they've shot someone.

So they're all proper when they report gun incidents - "wait for the full facts to emerge..."

Except when (some cops suspect) it may be their fault, then, as now, we get leaks to suggest it isn't. Now, when the Met is being definite about a shooting, we have even better reason to suspect it's lying.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://yfrog.com/h7zg5pgj window broken...


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

police line http://twitpic.com/62kpgj


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

breaking into HMV http://yfrog.com/h8mt9hlaj


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

We know the cops and the gutter press collude on a range of corrupt stuff, why should it be a surprise when their mates come out with cynical lies that the cops can't put in a press statement ...



> Suspected gangster Mark Duggan, 29, fired a handgun at an armed cop, whose life was saved when the bullet hit his radio.
> The officer returned fire with his Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine gun - blasting dad-of-five Duggan twice in the face before slumping to the ground.



http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...lfriend-to-say-The-feds-are-following-me.html


----------



## Utopia (Aug 7, 2011)

Hmmmmmm, i've got a bad feeling about all this.


----------



## lighterthief (Aug 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> Except when (some cops suspect) it may be their fault, then, as now, we get leaks to suggest it isn't. Now, when the Met is being definite about a shooting, we have even better reason to suspect it's lying.


Who's leaking what and to whom?


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 7, 2011)

Just a thought - this march next weekend might now get policed rather heavily?

http://transpont.blogspot.com/2011/08/demetre-fraser-demonstration.html


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://twitpic.com/62kt5h quiet police line


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2011)

lighterthief said:


> Who's leaking what and to whom?



Probably, individual cops to journalists - in the case of the "bullet in the radio" thing I'd be almost sure it was this.


----------



## lighterthief (Aug 7, 2011)

More fool the press for printing unsubstantiated rumours.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 7, 2011)

Don't know if this has been posted, allegedly video of the girl being attacked by police in Tottenham


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

... and it's always that 'hero cop vs evil baddie' narrative that their partners-in-corruption in the press come out with. I suppose they just think that if they get their self-serving lies about people they've killed into the initial headline, then a significant number of people will always think that e.g. JC De Menezes was "wearing a bulky jacket and acting suspiciously" thereby justifying the police shooting that innocent man repeatedly in the face.

"Liverpool fans pissed on brave police trying to help Hillsbourough victims before robbing the corpses"

"Brave police were pelted with a hail of bottles while giving first aid to riot victim Tomlinson"

"Suspected gangster Mark Duggan, 29, fired a handgun at an armed cop, whose life was saved when the bullet hit his radio.
 The officer returned fire with his Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine gun - blasting dad-of-five Duggan twice in the face before slumping to the ground."
*
*


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://yfrog.com/klhyxnqj Plods at the Train Station


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 7, 2011)

Cash converters in Tottenham will be busy tomorrow


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://yfrog.com/kj67zltj car following the Plods


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

twentythreedom said:


> Cash converters in Tottenham will be busy tomorrow


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

journodave Dave Wyllie  

News teams are traveling with security tonight. Bet you didn't think you'd hear that in London. #*Enfield*


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

journodave Dave Wyllie  

News teams are traveling with security tonight. Bet you didn't think you'd hear that in London. #*Enfield*


----------



## Corax (Aug 7, 2011)

Edit - Oops. Wrong Tottenham thread, sorry!


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2011)

roctrevezel said:


> The press really do come out with some ill informed bollocks, personally I will wait for the forensics report.
> Hollow point is a standard kind of round, states hollow point on the box. Designed not to do a through and through but stay in the body.
> A criminal is just as likely to have hollow point ammo as the plod is, because it is more readily available.



Just to reiterate, hollowpoint bullets are not the same as dum dum bullets, like roctrevezel says.
Couldn't find a better link in a hurry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-point_bullet

Hollowpoint ammunition is mostly law enforcement only, these days, civilians aren't allowed to purchase except under specific circumstances (certain types of hunting).


----------



## juice_terry (Aug 7, 2011)

Met Police consider employing the Kaiser Chiefs to identify potential areas of civil disorder


----------



## smokedout (Aug 7, 2011)

H&M looted in brixton apparantly

http://lockerz.com/s/127545749


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> H&M looted in brixton apparantly
> 
> http://lockerz.com/s/127545749



That's not Brixton H&M.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://twipho.net/#enfield pictures going on tweet


----------



## toblerone3 (Aug 7, 2011)

Blimey, Tottenham, who would have thought it !    Is this nothing that will blow over in a couple of days, or is like 1981 or 1985 all over again.  Or is it the beginnings of something bigger still!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> H&M looted in brixton apparantly
> 
> http://lockerz.com/s/127545749



Did you read the comments under it?


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://londonnewspictures.photoshelter.com/gallery/LNP-Enfield-Disturbances-1-JGO/G0000XNFLErluRes police dogs etc...


----------



## DexterTCN (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> http://yfrog.com/h7zg5pgj window broken...


Technically it's now 100% off, not 70%.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Heard from a tweet that reporters are on their way to Enfield but are bringing security with them ... !


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

*min reyes*

RT @CrazyGoose: Just left Enfield Town. About 50 riot police & more arriving. However hundreds of youths in balaclavas on scene. More arriving by car & foot


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

n*ckgriff*nmep Nick Griffin MEP

Out of town Old Bill meeting on M25 A10 junction ready to go in to *Enfield*. Cells being readied in Herts.
---
Nice...


----------



## smokedout (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Did you read the comments under it?



cant see any, was it in enfield then?


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

finally some news on sky corp ... I know ...


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

PaulLewis Paul Lewis

BREAKING: Serious clashes now in #*Enfield*. Around 200 teens broke into jewellery store. Police dogs and baton attacks.

http://yfrog.com/h4h4aeajj


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> cant see any, was it in enfield then?



Scroll down to underneath the picture. There's a couple of comments


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> n*ckgriff*nmep Nick Griffin MEP
> 
> Out of town Old Bill meeting on M25 A10 junction ready to go in to *Enfield*. Cells being readied in Herts.
> ---
> Nice...



I love this comment...



> @nickgriffinmep Nick Griffin MEP
> 
> Riot footage shows it a joint black/Jewish affair. Now that is strange. Wonders of multi culturalism!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

A Guardian reporter in Brixton has just posted this

http://twitpic.com/62lbq4


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

CaptainLameO NotTelling  

the riot horses are out #*enfield*


----------



## Tankus (Aug 7, 2011)

Is this the modern equivalent of illegal _rave parties_ _ ?_ ..... sort of like ...._.loot parties_ ....chancers just driving round waiting for news where the latest _action_ is to be had ? .......but without the bad dancing


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

Tankus said:


> Is this the modern equivalent of illegal _rave parties_ _?_ ..... sort of like ...._.loot parties_ ....chancers just driving round waiting for news where the latest _action_ is to be had ?



That was happening 30 years ago, way before rave.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 7, 2011)

Tankus said:


> Is this the modern equivalent of illegal _rave parties_ _ ?_ ..... sort of like ...._.loot parties_ ....chancers just driving round waiting for news where the latest _action_ is to be had ? .......but without the bad dancing



In your head?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Well 3 vans with sirens just headed past me down the hill. There have been a couple others in the last hour two. So a bit more than normal. But things look calm in this pic from just a few mins ago.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 7, 2011)

Tankus said:


> Is this the modern equivalent of illegal _rave parties_ _ ?_ ..... sort of like ...._.loot parties_ ....chancers just driving round waiting for news where the latest _action_ is to be had ? .......but without the bad dancing


 i've read some drivel today, but congrats, nothing comes near that....good work you utter fucking lemon


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 7, 2011)

I'm quite tempted to get the bus from the end of my road, it goes straight to enfield town. I fancy hurling insults at plod from the top deck of the 307. And then nicking a telly or something


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

PaulLewis Paul Lewis  

BREAKING: Serious clashes now in #Enfield. Around 200 teens broke into jewellery store. Police dogs and baton attacks.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2011)

Fish night at the old people's home again:

'There's no rioting in Brixton tonight'
'But there's a tweet posting a picture of a shop being looted in Brixton'
'That's not in Brixton'
etc

Nobody is listening!


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

well i just heard a siren, so i'm convinced leeds is now ablaze


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

@mrmatthewtaylor Matthew Taylor 

Things becoming calmer again in #brixton following arrest. Still big police presence.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> well i just heard a siren, so i'm convinced leeds is now ablaze



Harehills would be the place to watch in Leeds.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

Loads of sirens screaming on the wind here in Hackney...then again, that happens quite often.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Barking_Mad said:


> Harehills would be the place to watch in Leeds.


nah, it'd definitely kicking off in headingley. far headingley.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Aug 7, 2011)

Kingsland road seems to have pretty much turned into a police highway, with vans constantly driving up and down sirens blaring all day.  Just had another 3 zoom past going north.


----------



## Teepee (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> nah, it'd definitely kicking off in headingley. far headingley.


everyone in headingley is too stoned to riot.. or that was the impression i got when i went there


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> Kingsland road seems to have pretty much turned into a police highway, with vans constantly driving up and down sirens blaring all day. Just had another 3 zoom past going north.


Those must be the ones I just heard then...


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> PaulLewis Paul Lewis
> 
> BREAKING: Serious clashes now in #*Enfield*. Around 200 teens broke into jewellery store. Police dogs and baton attacks.
> 
> http://yfrog.com/h4h4aeajj


sorry mate, didn't see you'd already posted that.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Some noises in Brixton anyone have any further info?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

enfield police's record is not entirely spotless:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6466430.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/17/police-corruption-inquiry
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-face-misconduct-rap-heavy-handed-arrest.html


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Teepee said:


> everyone in headingley is too stoned to riot.. or that was the impression i got when i went there


that's why they're rioting. they're angry a skunk dealer got shot


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> Some noises in Brixton anyone have any further info?


you sound almost hopeful


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

I got two twitters going ... one for Enfield and the other for Brixton


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

i suspect you might be a bit of a wally


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> you sound almost hopeful



somebody asked in the Enfield tread...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> you sound almost hopeful



Maybe after some new trainers?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> somebody asked in the Enfield tread...


what's a tread?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> what's a tread?


an irish thread?


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> what's a tread?



on twitter thank for calling me a wally ... at least I know who my true friends are


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

oh dear, police helicopter hovering over my area now.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 7, 2011)

itv_news ITV News  

Police say "several" people have been arrested in #Enfield and three officers have been injured in an incident in *#**Brixton* this evening


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Maybe next time you'll find out the facts rather than resorting to knee jerk reactions based only on prejudice, eh?


Hardly prejudice tbh... the guy *was* carrying a gun and the police shooting themselves is rather a rare occurrence. Presumably a ricochet - or else some firearms officer really has screwed up big time...

I don't believe I was the only one to come to that conclusion either - the IPCC release led many to believe that man shot/gun recovered/bullet in police radio indicated that an exchange of fire had taken place between him and the police.

They've known all along whether this guy fired his weapon or not, if he didn't then they could have released that fact from the outset rather than the selective release of facts that actually took place and led people/the media to draw a different conclusion. Not releasing the fact that he didn't fire his weapon then this information coming to light just stirs up more distrust amongst the family/community and in turn gives credence to the rumours of a summary execution taking place.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> you sound almost hopeful


and ?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

you should be feeling pretty sheepish now, dowie


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 7, 2011)

Is there a support fund for the people who lost their homes and belongings, does anyone know?


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 7, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Is there a support fund for the people who lost their homes and belongings, does anyone know?


I don't now but me and El Jugs wanted to know if there was anyway we could help these people - I really feel for them.  I feel as a local I have a duty.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> nah, it'd definitely kicking off in headingley. far headingley.



Headingley is full of students, no chance of it kicking off.


----------



## abstract1 (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Hardly prejudice tbh... the guy *was* carrying a gun and the police shooting themselves is rather a rare occurrence. Presumably a ricochet - or else some firearms officer really has screwed up big time...
> 
> I don't believe I was the only one to come to that conclusion either - the IPCC release led many to believe that man shot/gun recovered/bullet in police radio indicated that an exchange of fire had taken place between him and the police.
> 
> They've known all along whether this guy fired his weapon or not, if he didn't then they could have released that fact from the outset rather than the selective release of facts that actually took place and led people/the media to draw a different conclusion. Not releasing the fact that he didn't fire his weapon then this information coming to light just stirs up more distrust amongst the family/community and in turn gives credence to the rumours of a summary execution taking place.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 7, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> I don't now but me and El Jugs wanted to know if there was anyway we could help these people - I really feel for them. I feel as a local I have a duty.



I'm not local but obvs I would donate. If you hear anything, could you possibly PM me? (or whatever the newfangled equivalent is)


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> you should be feeling pretty sheepish now, dowie



I'm pretty shocked tbh.. yes. But I don't think I was exactly the only one who drew the same initial conclusion from the reports of a bullet being lodged in a police radio. The selective release of information on this is a bit dodgy IMO - why release the fact about a bullet being lodged in a police radio and not clarify that the suspect didn't discharge his weapon. Without the second bit of information the first does tend to indicate an exchange of fire but they'd have known all along from officers at the scene whether a round was fired by the suspect/victim. It does stink a bit...


----------



## abstract1 (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Hardly prejudice tbh... the guy *was* carrying a gun and the police shooting themselves is rather a rare occurrence. Presumably a ricochet - or else some firearms officer really has screwed up big time...
> 
> I don't believe I was the only one to come to that conclusion either - the IPCC release led many to believe that man shot/gun recovered/bullet in police radio indicated that an exchange of fire had taken place between him and the police.
> 
> They've known all along whether this guy fired his weapon or not, if he didn't then they could have released that fact from the outset rather than the selective release of facts that actually took place and led people/the media to draw a different conclusion. Not releasing the fact that he didn't fire his weapon then this information coming to light just stirs up more distrust amongst the family/community and in turn gives credence to the rumours of a summary execution taking place.



You're a bit of a tool, aren't you?


----------



## Belushi (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> I'm pretty shocked tbh.. yes. But I don't think I was exactly the only one who drew the same initial conclusion from the reports of a bullet being lodged in a police radio. The selective release of information on this is a bit dodgy IMO - why release the fact about a bullet being lodged in a police radio and not clarify that the suspect didn't discharge his weapon. Without the second bit of information the first does tend to indicate an exchange of fire but they'd have known all along from officers at the scene whether a round was fired by the suspect/victim. It does stink a bit...



Why are you shocked? This is how the Met always operate.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 7, 2011)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56312368@N04/sets/72157627372500124/

last night

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56312368@N04/sets/72157627252873423/

This morning.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> I'm pretty shocked tbh.. yes. But I don't think I was exactly the only one who drew the same initial conclusion from the reports of a bullet being lodged in a police radio. The selective release of information on this is a bit dodgy IMO - why release the fact about a bullet being lodged in a police radio and not clarify that the suspect didn't discharge his weapon. Without the second bit of information the first does tend to indicate an exchange of fire but they'd have known all along from officers at the scene whether a round was fired by the suspect/victim. It does stink a bit...



Get the misinformation out quick then trickle the rest out when people have stopped paying attention.

I tried to post earlier but it wasn't working.  The quote from the police spokesman in the london standard article linked to on here was very interesting in it's wording.  I forget exactly but ''a gun was found'' (not he had a gun, not he shot the gun)  '' It* appears* he fired before the police returned fire''.  Very carefully worded not to be a lie if it turns out he didn't have a gun, didn't shoot a gun and that the police shot him without him shooting first.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Barking_Mad said:


> Headingley is full of students, no chance of it kicking off.


ahem, what happened in london earlier this year?
anyway, i just heard 2 sirens. i'm 100% certain headingley will fall now. i'm getting straight down to wilco for a spot of looting


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Anarchists don't trash their own communities (or other peoples for that matter).
> 
> What happened in Tottenham was mob violence.



Its hard to  know what anarchists do or don't as each time someone says anarchists do this or that some other anrchisty type will say that all anarchists are different. To be honest it would be alot clearer if the anarchists agreed on what it meant and then expelled the opposition.

Anyway I agree with your sentiments re not trashing your own community and personally i wouldn't be out on the streets over the death of some local gangster who had a gun. Pity they weren't out over the closure of libraries.


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

abstract1 said:


> You're a bit of a tool, aren't you?



Yeah I'm a tool for not instantly distrusting reports of this incident and coming to a conclusion that many other people also did. Still carry on, just insult me for posting my own opinions etc...


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> H&M looted in brixton apparantly
> 
> http://lockerz.com/s/127545749


That's Enfield HMV


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Yeah I'm a tool for not instantly distrusting reports of this incident and coming to a conclusion that many other people also did. Still carry on, just insult me for posting my own opinions etc...



your shit, ill-informed prejudiced opinions?


----------



## cantsin (Aug 7, 2011)

Giles said:


> A "time of polarisation"? What does that mean, then?
> 
> A bunch of low-lifes have succeeded in trashing their own neighbourhood. Win! Still, at least a lucky few got some free trainers and a big telly out of it.
> 
> Giles..



did public school really not equip you to understand the phrase 'a time of polarisation ' Giles ?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> That's Enfield HMV


no, apparently that's wood green hmv even, there's some very spurious stuff flying about

hang on, no it isn't, that is a h&m, bad me for replying before i'd even clicked on the picture....d'oh


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Police car heard going down to Brixton ...


----------



## cantsin (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Sorry I should have perhaps said 'alleged gangster'. Supposedly 'Starrish mark' from the 'Man Dem' gang. Allegedly on the way to seek revenge for the killing of his cousin and intercepted by police from operation trident. Would certainly explain why the family members are in disbelief - could presume that perhaps he doesn't carry a gun normally but might have acquired one for this alleged revenge attack he was purportedly on his way to carry out. Presumably some tout or other tipped off the police and prompted this operation.
> 
> (yes and before someone quotes me several times I am making lots of assumptions here - though I'd also wager that I'm likely not far off the mark.)



jesus wept, still  making it up as you go along you time wasting, 'look at me' fruitloop, Go away , ffs.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> Police car heard going down to Brixton ...


that happens every fucking night - stop stoking the rumour mill!


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> your shit, ill-informed prejudiced opinions?



They were hardly all that ill informed and many others drew the same conclusion from the selective information released.

Why do you believe that drawing the opinion that bullet in radio = exchange of fire rather than accident is based purely on prejudice given that we also know the suspect/victim had a gun and was shot?


----------



## kenny g (Aug 7, 2011)

possible arrest occurred in north london


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://lockerz.com/s/127521199 Brixton piccy


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> that happens every fucking night - stop stoking the rumour mill!


crazy innit?

POLICE CAR MAKES NOISE IN INNER CITY!!!!!!


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> They were hardly all that ill informed and many others drew the same conclusion from the selective information released.
> 
> Why do you believe that drawing the opinion that bullet in radio = exchange of fire rather than accident is based purely on prejudice given that we also know the suspect/victim had a gun and was shot?



cos you shouldn't believe a word the met ever says when they shoot someone dead.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> Police car heard going down to Brixton ...


 
Not a police car going to Brixton?


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

cantsin said:


> jesus wept, still making it up as you go along you time wasting, 'look at me' fruitloop, Go away , ffs.



Yeah sorry all your posts in here have been really constructive. Rather than post my own opinions should I just sit back, wait until someone else posts something I don't like and then chuck in a few one line insults at them...


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

live 200 yards from Enfield town centre, helicopters, police cars. Drove through a couple of hours ago, HMV, my pub, pearons etc smashed, drove past groups of youths/men all converging on Enfield town. Dont want to say this but only stating facts they are all non white. My mate confirmed saw another 200 are walking through Bush Hill Park from Tottenham/Edmonton. total in Enfield 500. He drove through 10 minutes ago, hoodies, with bricks, hammers, bottles, iron bars, wood, we need armed response shoot them, he said the police are over whelmed.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> http://lockerz.com/s/127521199 Brixton piccy



FFS, that pictures was taken hours and hours ago

Behave


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> live 200 yards from Enfield town centre, helicopters, police cars. Drove through a couple of hours ago, HMV, my pub, pearons etc smashed, drove past groups of youths/men all converging on Enfield town. Dont want to say this but only stating facts they are all non white. My mate confirmed saw another 200 are walking through Bush Hill Park from Tottenham/Edmonton. total in Enfield 500. He drove through 10 minutes ago, hoodies, with bricks, hammers, bottles, iron bars, wood, *we need armed response shoot them*, he said the police are over whelmed.


WHAT?


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 7, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Is there a support fund for the people who lost their homes and belongings, does anyone know?



Doubt it, assuming they weren't "insured". Maybe Cash Converters can make a donation at the close of business tomorrow...


----------



## abstract1 (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> *Yeah I'm a tool* for not instantly distrusting reports of this incident and coming to a conclusion that many other people also did. Still carry on, just insult me for posting my own opinions etc...



You said it.

More seriously - you'd do well to apply a little critical thinking.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Enfield car on fire http://twitpic.com/62m9uh


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 7, 2011)

The way "outsiders", "gangsters" and "troublemakers" etc are getting the blame reminds me of Assad blaming the uprisings in Syria on "armed gangs", "terrorists" etc.

When people feel angry, oppressed etc then shit like this happens.

"Fuck politics, let's riot" etc


----------



## lighterthief (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Get the misinformation out quick then trickle the rest out when people have stopped paying attention.
> 
> I tried to post earlier but it wasn't working. The quote from the police spokesman in the london standard article linked to on here was very interesting in it's wording. I forget exactly but ''a gun was found'' (not he had a gun, not he shot the gun) '' It* appears* he fired before the police returned fire''. Very carefully worded not to be a lie if it turns out he didn't have a gun, didn't shoot a gun and that the police shot him without him shooting first.



Is this the article: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23976225-cab-passenger-shot-dead-by-police.do ?

Other than the "apparent exchange of gunfire" it seems balanced to me.  Of course they have to say "a gun was found" - what do you think would happen if they said "Mark Duggan was armed" and then it was subsequently found that this was not the case?  And it's not the Met being quoted and the IPCC quote sensibly doesn't go anywhere near the issue.

Perhaps there was another article I missed?


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> Dont want to say this but only stating facts they are all non white.


 watching Sky now, some of the blacks must have whitened up then 

Do you feel a need to state these facts when white people are rioting?


----------



## abstract1 (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> crazy innit?
> 
> POLICE CAR MAKES NOISE IN INNER CITY!!!!!!



Hush now!


----------



## kenny g (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Rather than post my own opinions should I just sit back, wait until someone else posts something I don't like and then chuck in a few one line insults at them...


That is what 70% of urban posters do so you would have the benefit of being in a crowd.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://twitpic.com/62mepz Armoured Police Vans you would have thought they had better things to do with these...


----------



## kenny g (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> they are all non white.... My mate confirmed saw another 200 are walking ... we need armed response shoot them, he said the police are over whelmed.



are you on the right forum?? Or have you just drunk a bottle of NAZI juice? Amazing how a riot brings out people's true colours isn't it?


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> ahem, what happened in london earlier this year?
> anyway, i just heard 2 sirens. i'm 100% certain headingley will fall now. i'm getting straight down to wilco for a spot of looting





Orang Utan said:


> ahem, what happened in london earlier this year?
> anyway, i just heard 2 sirens. i'm 100% certain headingley will fall now. i'm getting straight down to wilco for a spot of looting



No chance. Besides Headingley is devoid of students, summer holidays.


----------



## abstract1 (Aug 7, 2011)

kenny g said:


> That is what 70% of urban posters do so you would have the benefit of being in a crowd.



Poor oppressed Kenny......

[/yawn]


----------



## kenny g (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> http://twitpic.com/62mepz Armoured Police Vans you would have thought they had better things to do with these...


 well not if you want them to start shooting protestors


----------



## kenny g (Aug 7, 2011)

abstract1 said:


> [/yawn]



sleepy?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Barking_Mad said:


> No chance. Besides Headingley is devoid of students, summer holidays.


nah, it's kicking off massively. i heard someone shouting


----------



## cantsin (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Yeah sorry all your posts in here have been really constructive. Rather than post my own opinions should I just sit back, wait until someone else posts something I don't like ane are ged then chuck in a few one line insults at them...



when people on here are sharing info re: an important, developing situation, it's just frustrating having to listen to  timewasters like yourself...even when your proved 100 % wrong re: bullet in radio according to the IPcc, you still drivel on about it - you've nothing interesting or informative to say, it's just trolling,  why dont you fuck off somewhere else you can share your dull, reactionary prejudices with like minded people ? or is this kind of interaction what makes up a good night for you, all things considered ?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

lighterthief said:


> Is this the article: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23976225-cab-passenger-shot-dead-by-police.do ?
> 
> Other than the "apparent exchange of gunfire" it seems balanced to me. Of course they have to say "a gun was found" - what do you think would happen if they said "Mark Duggan was armed" and then it was subsequently found that this was not the case? And it's not the Met being quoted and the IPCC quote sensibly doesn't go anywhere near the issue.
> 
> Perhaps there was another article I missed?



Hm. can't see the quote I read earlier in there.   Tried to search but no luck.


----------



## abstract1 (Aug 7, 2011)

kenny g said:


> sleepy?



Have I misunderstood you?


----------



## Addy (Aug 7, 2011)

oi oi Abs


----------



## skitr (Aug 7, 2011)

People on another forum I read are saying call in the S.A.S and Army


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

the thread's gone to shit since this morning i see


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 7, 2011)

I know that the truth of this incident will probably not come to light for some time, and it is a tragedy for Mark Duggans family that he should lose his life in this way. But how does this incident justify the wanton criminality we have witnessed? Residents of Tottenham who have nothing to do with this incident have had their homes and livelihoods destroyed by a mob which descended on the area from other parts of London hell bent on looting and destruction!

Low paid workers working for Aldi and other businesses are now out of work because of these individuals, other residents have lost their homes and all their possessions for what?

What we are witnessing is just opportunist criminality, it makes me ashamed to be a Londoner to see the bestial nature that some will stoop to. What a thin veneer civilisation actually is!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Barking_Mad said:


> Headingley is full of students, no chance of it kicking off.


at this time of year? you sure?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 7, 2011)

skitr said:


> People on another forum I read are saying call in the S.A.S and Army


 
troops on the streets always improves the situation, history shows this.


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

cantsin said:


> when people on here are sharing info re: an important, developing situation, it's just frustrating having to listen to timewasters like yourself...even when your proved 100 % wrong re: bullet in radio according to the IPcc, you still drivel on about it - you've nothing interesting or informative to say, it's just trolling, why dont you fuck off somewhere else you can share your dull, reactionary prejudices with like minded people ? or is this kind of interaction what makes up a good night for you, all things considered ?



If you want up to date information then you can follow a twitter feed, if you don't like my posts then use ignore... Quoting them and chucking in a random insult and now going on to state that posting opinions you don't like is trolling is pretty hypocritical.


----------



## abstract1 (Aug 7, 2011)

Addy said:


> oi oi Abs


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> at this time of year? you sure?


loads stay on to work. and riot.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> the thread's gone to shit since this morning i see



It's because you haven't been here oh great one.

Anyways why aren't you out getting down with the youth of today?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I know that the truth of this incident will probably not come to light for some time, and it is a tragedy for Mark Duggans family that he should lose his life in this way. But how does this incident justify the wanton criminality we have witnessed? Residents of Tottenham who have nothing to do with this incident have had their homes and livelihoods destroyed by a mob which descended on the area from other parts of London hell bent on looting and destruction!
> 
> Low paid workers working for Aldi and other businesses are now out of work because of these individuals, other residents have lost their homes and all their possessions for what?
> 
> What we are witnessing is just opportunist criminality, it makes me ashamed to be a Londoner to see the bestial nature that some will stoop to. What a thin veneer civilisation actually is!


descended from other parts of london? the kids who were out at 2 this morning? you sure? and how do you know that aldi etc have sacked their workers? are you privy to their discussions?


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 7, 2011)

Subways being attacked by armed mobs: http://yfrog.com/gysv8fpj


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I know that the truth of this incident will probably not come to light for some time, and it is a tragedy for Mark Duggans family that he should lose his life in this way. But how does this incident justify the wanton criminality we have witnessed? Residents of Tottenham who have nothing to do with this incident have had their homes and livelihoods destroyed by a mob which descended on the area from other parts of London hell bent on looting and destruction!
> 
> Low paid workers working for Aldi and other businesses are now out of work because of these individuals, other residents have lost their homes and all their possessions for what?
> 
> What we are witnessing is just opportunist criminality, it makes me ashamed to be a Londoner to see the bestial nature that some will stoop to. What a thin veneer civilisation actually is!


 
is this supposed to be a letter to the daily telegraph? Wanton bestiality!


----------



## manny-p (Aug 7, 2011)

Sky news has some horrible wankers on atm.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> It's because you haven't been here oh great one.
> 
> Anyways why aren't you out getting down with the youth of today?


i thought it was rather more to do with posters like dowie. why aren't you out engaging wit' da yoot - or anyone for that matter?


----------



## abstract1 (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> If you want up to date information then you can follow a twitter feed, if you don't like my posts then use ignore... Quoting them and chucking in a random insult and now going on to state that posting opinions you don't like is trolling is pretty hypocritical.



Shut up!


----------



## Tankus (Aug 7, 2011)

water canon is the way to go , sort the fires out as well as the crims .... fire brigade had their response delayed due to safety issues .....armoured water tender would get right in there , right at the start ....maybe some properties could have been saved

time indexed smart water additive for the looters too


----------



## kenny g (Aug 7, 2011)

cantsin said:


> when people on here are sharing info re: an important, developing situation, it's just frustrating having to listen to timewasters like yourself..



Pompous moi?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Tankus said:


> water canon is the way to go , sort the fires out as well as the crims .... fire brigade had their response delayed due to safety issues .....armoured water tender would get right in there , right at the start ....maybe some properties could have been saved
> 
> time indexed smart water additive for the looters too


you should change your tagline to full of shit, it would be more accurate


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 7, 2011)

..


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

kenny g said:


> Pompous moi?


pretentious and pompous, toi


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

Well it's all on t.v.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> Subways being attacked by armed mobs: http://yfrog.com/gysv8fpj


----------



## abstract1 (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> descended from other parts of london? the kids who were out at 2 this morning? you sure? and how do you know that aldi etc have sacked their workers? are you privy to their discussions?



Everyone's suddenly an expert.......


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

abstract1 said:


> Everyone's suddenly an expert.......


but sadly not on the matter at hand


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

lighterthief said:


> Is this the article: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23976225-cab-passenger-shot-dead-by-police.do ?
> 
> Other than the "apparent exchange of gunfire" it seems balanced to me. Of course they have to say "a gun was found" - what do you think would happen if they said "Mark Duggan was armed" and then it was subsequently found that this was not the case? And it's not the Met being quoted and the IPCC quote sensibly doesn't go anywhere near the issue.
> 
> Perhaps there was another article I missed?



Well for example, the Met's partners-in-corruption at the Sun printed the following:



> Suspected gangster Mark Duggan, 29, fired a handgun at an armed cop, whose life was saved when the bullet hit his radio.
> The officer returned fire with his Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine gun - blasting dad-of-five Duggan twice in the face before slumping to the ground.



http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...lfriend-to-say-The-feds-are-following-me.html


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://yfrog.com/h3vq6ihj fire in Enfield ...


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> no, apparently that's wood green hmv even, there's some very spurious stuff flying about
> 
> hang on, no it isn't, that is a h&m, bad me for replying before i'd even clicked on the picture....d'oh


 My bad too - I meant H&M - in Wood Green is it? Okay. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAII_KuXfsE


----------



## rover07 (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> Well it's all on t.v.



What channel?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought it was rather more to do with posters like dowie. why aren't you out engaging wit' da yoot - or anyone for that matter?



It's all quiet my end of the world.


----------



## kenny g (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> Low paid workers working for Aldi and other businesses are now out of work because of these individuals, other residents have lost their homes and all their possessions for what?
> 
> What we are witnessing is just opportunist criminality, it makes me ashamed to be a Londoner to see* the bestial nature* that some will stoop to. What a thin veneer civilisation actually is!



Why the fuck are they low paid you cunt? Because they are being shat on by ALDI, that is why. Even in the days of outright slavery the plantations would be set on fire by the slaves. The sugar cane would burn...

And the "bestial nature" of people fighting back is the same the world over, has been and will be. This is not "some " you tool. This is hundreds, if not thousands, of people who are pissed off and ready to act.


----------



## abstract1 (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> but sadly not on the matter at hand



What can you do.....


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 7, 2011)

I of course don't know if Aldi have sacked their workers, they probably wont know themselves until tomorrow. But really that aside how do you justify to the people who have been made homeless and the small businesses that have been trashed, the actions of a mob that burns your home or livelihood because they want a free TV and some trainers?


----------



## Tankus (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you should change your tagline to full of shit, it would be more accurate


(sic)


----------



## kenny g (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> the actions of a mob that burns your home or livelihood because they want a free TV and some trainers?



Maybe that wasn't what happened?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I of course don't know if Aldi have sacked their workers, they probably wont know themselves until tomorrow. But really that aside how do you justify to the people who have been made homeless and the small businesses that have been trashed, the actions of a mob that burns your home or livelihood because they want a free TV and some trainers?


we've already established you're talking bollocks. stop digging.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Tankus said:


> (sic)


true tho


----------



## rover07 (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I of course don't know if Aldi have sacked their workers, they probably wont know themselves until tomorrow. But really that aside how do you justify to the people who have been made homeless and the small businesses that have been trashed, the actions of a mob that burns your home or livelihood because they want a free TV and some trainers?



Tough.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> Well it's all on t.v.


Absolutely  no white people here. None at all.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> we've already established you're talking bollocks. stop digging.



Ok, I'm talking bollocks. But what is your answer to my question?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide: I asked the same question some pages back and got the answer 'friendly fire'.

Which a) isn't an answer and b) justifies nothing to my mind.


----------



## Tankus (Aug 7, 2011)

fertilizer .. init  ....


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

krispy kremes in Enfield smashed http://lockerz.com/s/127574930


----------



## abstract1 (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I of course don't know if Aldi have sacked their workers, they probably wont know themselves until tomorrow. But really that aside how do you justify to the people who have been made homeless and the small businesses that have been trashed, the actions of a mob that burns your home or livelihood because they want a free TV and some trainers?



You're not too hot on joined up thinking are you?


----------



## kavenism (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> What we are witnessing is just opportunist criminality, it makes me ashamed to be French to see the bestial nature that some will stoop to. What a thin veneer civilisation actually is!



Two words edited so it now matches almost exactly the words of Sarkozy back in 2005 when the Paris suburbs erupted, which all this business is rapidly beginning to resemble. Then and now we’re dealing with the results of years of alienation, marginalization and systematic targeting by a racist police force and media.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 7, 2011)

rover07 said:


> Tough.



That's brave talk! What if it was your home or business that was destroyed? Your family terrorised?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> krispy kremes in Enfield smashed http://lockerz.com/s/127574930



Absolutely foul things and making the people of Britain fat


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I of course don't know if Aldi have sacked their workers, they probably wont know themselves until tomorrow. But really that aside how do you justify to the people who have been made homeless and the small businesses that have been trashed, the actions of a mob that burns your home or livelihood because they want a free TV and some trainers?


 
Anyone would think it was your house that had been burned out you whining twat. And if a 'mob' makes you ashamed to be a londoner then I'd suggest you don't know much history of london. Flee to a country estate while there is still time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> Ok, I'm talking bollocks. But what is your answer to my question?


no point, it's based on false premises.


----------



## Tankus (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Absolutely no white people here. None at all.


Just to make sure ...the muppet in the non face masked white and black shirt  put his fingerprints all over the top of the steering wheel !  ...good for him it was torched ..daily mail "do you know this person " feature coming soon, methinks


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Absolutely foul things and making the people of Britain fat


ultimately however they taste stale and are utterly horrid...


----------



## roctrevezel (Aug 7, 2011)

Tankus said:


> Just to make sure ...the muppet in the non face masked white and black shirt put his fingerprints all over the top of the steering wheel ! ...good for him it was torched ..daily mail "do you know this person " feature coming soon, methinks


 
That doesn't guarantee the prints are gone.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> ultimately however they taste stale and are utterly horrid...



Yeah, same as American chocolate.  They should stop importing their shit over here


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, same as American chocolate. They should stop importing their shit over here


i quite like hershey's


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no point, it's based on false premises.



Which are what? I have listened to LBC and Radio London I have seen the footage posted on here and other sites, all I see are groups of young men and women taking advantage of a situation to embark on a criminal rampage. Local people have condemned the violence, they have to live there in the aftermath of all of this. How does it further community cohesion by destroying shops homes and businesses in this area? How will this event help to assuage the grief felt by Mark Duggans family?  It seems to me that there are alot of armchair class warriors here spouting rhetoric, which if it were their home or livelihood destroyed in this orgy of criminality, would be just as upset as the young  family made homeless above the burnt out shop in Tottenham!


----------



## Belushi (Aug 7, 2011)

> orgy of criminality



Is that you Azrael?!
_
_


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I of course don't know if Aldi have sacked their workers, they probably wont know themselves until tomorrow. But really that aside how do you justify to the people who have been made homeless and the small businesses that have been trashed, the actions of a mob that burns your home or livelihood because they want a free TV and some trainers?


can't you see that is two sides of the same coin?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i quite like hershey's



There's something seriously wrong with you


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

http://yfrog.com/h48e0xptj Tesco smashed in Enfield ...


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

Teenager stabbed outside Edmonton working men's conservative club... 

(I didn't even know there were "working men's" conservative clubs)


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I of course don't know if Aldi have sacked their workers, they probably wont know themselves until tomorrow. But really that aside how do you justify to the people who have been made homeless and the small businesses that have been trashed, the actions of a mob that burns your home or livelihood because they want a free TV and some trainers?


pls expand on how you know that the people who burned homes or shops were motivated by the desire for televisions or trainers, or were the same people who were after those.


----------



## shaman75 (Aug 7, 2011)

Very interesting vid, shot a few weeks ago, focusing on the effect of the closure of 8 out of 13 youth clubs on young people in Haringey.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2011/jul/31/haringey-youth-club-closures-video


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 7, 2011)

RT @LondonText: *ALERT* Protestors are throwing petrol bombs on passing cars on the A10 from #Tottenham to #*Enfield*. Avoid the road.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Giles said:


> It would be worth using on many of the useless oxygen thieves out wrecking their neighbourhood last night. There's no need for them.
> 
> Giles..



Quoted for posterity, so that future generations will know why you were hung from a lamp-post.


----------



## shaman75 (Aug 7, 2011)

stuff on twitter about trouble in walthamstow now.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Hardly prejudice tbh... the guy *was* carrying a gun and the police shooting themselves is rather a rare occurrence. Presumably a ricochet - or else some firearms officer really has screwed up big time...
> 
> I don't believe I was the only one to come to that conclusion either - the IPCC release led many to believe that man shot/gun recovered/bullet in police radio indicated that an exchange of fire had taken place between him and the police.
> 
> They've known all along whether this guy fired his weapon or not, if he didn't then they could have released that fact from the outset rather than the selective release of facts that actually took place and led people/the media to draw a different conclusion. Not releasing the fact that he didn't fire his weapon then this information coming to light just stirs up more distrust amongst the family/community and in turn gives credence to the rumours of a summary execution taking place.



And that's my fucking point - you judged it based on what the mouthpieces of an institution well known for lying about this stuff said. I assumed that you weren't so naive as to take their word for it and so must have been basing it on prejudice. Maybe you're just a bit thick, but I wasn't to know that, was I?


----------



## noodles (Aug 7, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> RT @LondonText: *ALERT* Protestors Idiots are throwing petrol bombs on passing cars on the A10 from #Tottenham to #*Enfield*. Avoid the road.



Corrected this slightly.


----------



## Chuff (Aug 7, 2011)

sky news says kicking off outside westfield now as well as enfield


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> pls expand on how you know that the people who burned homes or shops were motivated by the desire for televisions or trainers, or were the same people who were after those.



How do you know they weren't? It seems reasonable to suppose that the youths shown in video on this site and others, that burnt police vehicles and a bus were either the same or in common cause with those that torched allied carpets (after looting it) the post office, dragged a safe from the bookmakers, ripped a cash machine from Barclays bank and then proceeded to destroy and loot Argos JJB sports et-al!

Please explain to me how these actions support the family of Mark Duggan whose shooting is supposedly the catalyst for all of this mayhem?


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 7, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> watching Sky now, some of the blacks must have whitened up then
> 
> Do you feel a need to state these facts when white people are rioting?



bump


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quoted for posterity, so that future generations will know why you were hung from a lamp-post.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> stuff on twitter about trouble in walthamstow now.



I'm past believing 90% of what I read on Twitter now.  Brixton's been rioting since last night apparently.  Found this tweet a few minutes ago which made me giggle







GordonSouthern Gordon Southern  

#Brixton*. You silly chirruping twitter wallies*. It's a festival and rioters do not have commemorative 30th anniversary tear ups.
2 minutes ago


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> Fuck me, the old bill are begging for a riot.



Well, it'd certainly make their case against cuts for them, wouldn't it?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> .............orgy of criminality..................



LOL

Bestial behaviour, orgy of criminality, what next?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quoted for posterity, so that future generations will know why you were hung from a lamp-post.



it's remarkable, is it not, the way civil disorder brings out the hardons poorly concealed by chinos. The sort of people who would merrily endorse any state action and condemn any reaction to it. And so often it is the likes of Giles, petty bourgeois twats proud to serve in the house and not the field


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm past believing 90% of what I read on Twitter now. Brixton's been rioting since last night apparently. Found this tweet a few minutes ago which made me giggle
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it's like this pearl...

_Large masked gangs of people walking around Enfield, we were chased across by one before. Lots of smashed shops, rumours crowds all over_

wtf?!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> It seems reasonable to suppose


no it doesn't.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 7, 2011)

How the fuck are people going to eat now the food shops are all smashed up


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Aug 7, 2011)

This is history repeating itself. 

10 Labour Government.
20 Tory Government.
30 Spending cuts.
40 Riots.
50 Goto 10.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

dp


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> How the fuck are people going to eat now the food shops are all smashed up


and more importantly, where will they get their carpets?!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> it's like this pearl...
> 
> _Large masked gangs of people walking around Enfield, we were chased across by one before. Lots of smashed shops, rumours crowds all over_
> 
> wtf?!



A large proportion of people posting seem to be illiterate or do they just not know where the keys on the keyboard/phone are?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Obnoxiousness said:


> This is history repeating itself.
> 
> 10 Labour Government.
> 20 Tory Government.
> ...


doesn't explain eg lewisham


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> How the fuck are people going to eat now the food shops are all smashed up


 
Let them eat cupcakes


----------



## roctrevezel (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> A large proportion of people posting seem to be illiterate or do they just not know where the keys on the keyboard/phone are?


 
Probably the former rather than the latter.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

skitr said:


> The bullet found in the coppers radio was a police issue bullet according to Channel 4 and Guardian.


Be easy enough to tell.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

roctrevezel said:


> Probably the former rather than the latter.



Maybe they've just got the shakes with all the excitement


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> If you want up to date information then you can follow a twitter feed, if you don't like my posts then use ignore... Quoting them and chucking in a random insult and now going on to state that posting opinions you don't like is trolling is pretty hypocritical.



You acted the cunt, you were wrong, you got called on it. Now either stop whining or fuck off.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

BigTom said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live#block-44
> 
> Forensics show that the bullet lodged in the police radio was *police* issue.. so whoever back there that VP was arguing with who was so cocksure about things needs to have a think about the assumptions s/he was making
> 
> e2a: snap x 3



Dowie, who was willing to wager that he was right.

He's lucky I didn't take that action, eh?


----------



## shaman75 (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm past believing 90% of what I read on Twitter now. Brixton's been rioting since last night apparently. Found this tweet a few minutes ago which made me giggle
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this one's from the local mp: http://twitter.com/#!/stellacreasy/status/100326735861661696


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> How the fuck are people going to eat now the food shops are all smashed up


the same way they ate before, chewing their food and swallowing it.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> doesn't explain eg lewisham


Handsworth, Brixton, Toxteth, Chapeltown...


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no it doesn't.



Is that the best you can do? I was under the impression having followed this site for a year or so that you were able to put together a cogent argument!

You live and learn.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

Walthamstow Market/shops being looted too..


----------



## Giles (Aug 7, 2011)

cantsin said:


> did public school really not equip you to understand the phrase 'a time of polarisation ' Giles ?



I wouldn't know, I never went to one.

Whatever, don't delude yourself that whatever the exact sequence of events with Mark Duggan (and after the Jean-Charles incident, I wouldn't trust the police's version very much), that most of these people are doing this because they are personally and genuinely enraged about him getting shot. It's just that it's exciting, go out and go wild with your mates, with the chance of having a ruck with some cops, plus the opportunity to rob stuff as well. Most lads wouldn't want to miss that if its going off just down the road.

Giles..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> this one's from the local mp: http://twitter.com/#!/stellacreasy/status/100326735861661696



Oh, well I guess that's probably one I can believe then (assuming she's not getting her info off Twitter )


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> I'm now a bit speechless....



Oh, I doubt it. You're probably still chockfull of "logical deductions".


----------



## Dowie (Aug 7, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> You acted the cunt, you were wrong, you got called on it. Now either stop whining or fuck off.



I 'acted the cunt' for posting an opinion?

Yes I was wrong, I'm surprised that it was a police bullet but I'm happy to admit that I was wrong.

The whole posting abuse at people you don't agree with thing... not really called for tbh..


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> Is that the best you can do? I was under the impression having followed this site for a year or so that you were able to put together a cogent argument!
> 
> You live and learn.


it does not seem reasonable to suppose that the same people were setting fires and looting. looting is obviously an activity which does not thrive in flames. nor does it seem reasonable to assume that they were in common cause. as has been pointed out the duggan family have said they didn't want the violence: do you suppose everyone out last night was up for either fighting the police or looting? pls in future engage brain before posting.

it's a pity that despite having followed these boards for many months you can't put together an argument worth replying to in detail.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Some reports now coming in of youths throwing bottles at police in Brixton. From a reporter on the ground.

http://twitter.com/#!/andrew_hough

And I need to go to the shop.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Barking_Mad said:


> So a copper was a radio width away from shooting and possibly killing another copper.


Accidental discharges, as I said in a previous answer to Dowie, answering his "logical deductions", are a lot more common than people would be inclined to believe, even by law enforcement professionals.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> I 'acted the cunt' for posting an opinion?
> 
> Yes I was wrong, I'm surprised that it was a police bullet but I'm happy to admit that I was wrong.
> 
> The whole posting abuse at people you don't agree with thing... not really called for tbh..



zzzzz


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 7, 2011)

So actual journalistic sources are posting (on Twitter) actual attributable assertions of stuff happening in Brixton now. Anyone confirm?


----------



## Tankus (Aug 7, 2011)

something kicking off in walthamstow market ..about 10 police vans plus dogs ...smashing glass ..and a lot of shouting


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Aug 7, 2011)

We're a fragmented society and have been for centuries, so while all this may be horrifying and sad, it's just humanity doing its thing.  The most destructive species on Earth.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Some reports now coming in of youths throwing bottles at police in Brixton. From a reporter on the ground.
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/andrew_hough
> 
> And I need to go to the shop.



So why can't you go to the shop?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> So actual journalistic sources are posting (on Twitter) actual attributable assertions of stuff happening in Brixton now. Anyone confirm?



Matthew Taylor (a Guardian journo) has been posting from Brixton


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live


My fucking word but that's badly-written shite. The police use JHPs: Jacketed Hollow-Point bullets, designed so as to minimise fragmentation.

The original "Dum-Dum" bullets, using poorly-made steel molds for the cast bullets, had hollows in the nose of the lead that *caused* them to fragment.


----------



## bluestreak (Aug 7, 2011)

can someone call me if it kicks off anywhere i can a new mixer?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> My fucking word but that's badly-written shite. The police use JHPs: Jacketed Hollow-Point bullets, designed so as to minimise fragmentation.
> 
> The original "Dum-Dum" bullets, using poorly-made steel molds for the cast bullets, had hollows in the nose of the lead that *caused* them to fragment.


hence the poor man's dum dum made by filing the point


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Accidental discharges, as I said in a previous answer to Dowie, answering his "logical deductions", are a lot more common than people would be inclined to believe, even by law enforcement professionals.



Would a ricochet while shooting someone who was lying down in the road (as some eye-witnesses appear to have claimed) be at all plausible?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2011)

Tankus said:


> something kicking off in walthamstow market ..about 10 police vans plus dogs ...smashing glass ..and a lot of shouting


Yeah, thats what I posted on the last page...in touch with a mate that lives above the shops in the market. She is scared and packing a bag to leave.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Mor


Bernie Gunther said:


> We know the cops and the gutter press collude on a range of corrupt stuff, why should it be a surprise when their mates come out with cynical lies that the cops can't put in a press statement ...
> 
> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...lfriend-to-say-The-feds-are-following-me.html


e badly-written shite. The Old Bill don't use the auto-fire only variant of the MP5 (which can be accurately called a "sub-machine gun), they use the MP5K, the carbine variant with selective fire that can be set by an armourer for semi-auto only (I'm fairly sure that the armed coppers will have been using semi-auto only). It's bloody difficult to fire a two round burst from an MP5 set for full auto.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 7, 2011)

A lot of police sirens near me now, I'm only a couple of miles from Walthamstow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

apparently something happening round white city (i refuse to call it westfield)


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> What's the area round there like geographically - side streets or just big main roads? Easy to get to on foot? Residential bits or pretty much all commercial?


which area you talking about. tottenham has big main road with lots of side streets and broadwater farm, amongst other social housing. enfield is a more traditional town centre if you like, cross roads and main street, estates on the outskirts. similar levels of poverty and deprivation.


----------



## dylans (Aug 7, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> So actual journalistic sources are posting (on Twitter) actual attributable assertions of stuff happening in Brixton now. Anyone confirm?



Guardian site has it now



> There have been disturbances over the course of at least the past half an hour in Brixton.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> it does not seem reasonable to suppose that the same people were setting fires and looting. looting is obviously an activity which does not thrive in flames. nor does it seem reasonable to assume that they were in common cause. as has been pointed out the duggan family have said they didn't want the violence: do you suppose everyone out last night was up for either fighting the police or looting? pls in future engage brain before posting.
> 
> it's a pity that despite having followed these boards for many months you can't put together an argument worth replying to in detail.



That's better!

Why does it not seem reasonable to suppose that the rioters were in common cause? The video posted here  and on other sites seems to show that the target of the rioters attacks were the police, they had that in common didn't they? When they looted and burned shops they seemed to have a common endeavour didn't they? As they queued to ransack JJB sports and Comet they seemed of one mind!

Tonight in Enfield, what is the excuse?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mor
> 
> e badly-written shite. The Old Bill don't use the auto-fire only variant of the MP5 (which can be accurately called a "sub-machine gun), they use the MP5K, the carbine variant with selective fire that can be set by an armourer for semi-auto only (I'm fairly sure that the armed coppers will have been using semi-auto only). It's bloody difficult to fire a two round burst from an MP5 set for full auto.


i think the met only have semi-auto so they don't kill all their mates in one lovely burst


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 7, 2011)

_Metropolitan police commander Adrian Hanstock said they had "not anticipated" the extreme level of violence. "Last night's peaceful demonstration was hijacked by a small number of criminal elements, who used that for their own gain_ 

He leads the Met, so he should know.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Would a ricochet while shooting someone who was lying down in the road (as some eye-witnesses appear to have claimed) be at all plausible?



9mm at close range? I've seen it happen off of the treble-course brick wall at my old range, so I certainly wouldn't rule it out.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 7, 2011)

marty21 said:


> A lot of police sirens near me now, I'm only a couple of miles from Walthamstow.


we've had sirens and helicopters all night, a10 is red hot this evening.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> _Metropolitan police commander Adrian Hanstock said they had "not anticipated" the extreme level of violence. "Last night's peaceful demonstration was hijacked by a small number of criminal elements, who used that for their own gain_
> 
> He leads the Met, so he should know.



the met have been shit at this public order business since broadhurst took over; i understand he's been sent off to do something with the olympics, which he'll no doubt make as big a fuck up of


----------



## Belushi (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Some reports now coming in of youths throwing bottles at police in Brixton. From a reporter on the ground.
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/andrew_hough
> 
> And I need to go to the shop.



You're closest, go down and have a look.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Aug 7, 2011)

So fuck me, the bullet in the radio was from a cop gun. Fancy that - the cops putting out missleading information having just killed somebody.

Why do so many people fail to take everything the cops say in these situations with a massive dose of salt. They are entirely consistant in their bullshit.

With regards to the rioting - its eerily similar to what happened in the early 80s - a lot of pissed off youth, high unemployment, widespread distrust and hostility to the cops then one incident kicks it all off. We've even had simialar bullshit about this all being 'pre-planned' - just like in 81.
A spell of hot weather and this could grow and spread over the next few weeks.

Take care anyone who's out there caught up in it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> That's better!
> 
> Why does it not seem reasonable to suppose that the rioters were in common cause? The video posted here and on other sites seems to show that the target of the rioters attacks were the police, they had that in common didn't they? When they looted and burned shops they seemed to have a common endeavour didn't they? As they queued to ransack JJB sports and Comet they seemed of one mind!
> 
> Tonight in Enfield, what is the excuse?


there are no excuses, just reasons. and there are many reasons. anger at the police, despair at being let down yet again by a government that only cares for their rich mates, the feeling by youths that they have nothing left to lose....


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So why can't you go to the shop?



I have been to the shop.  I am now back from the shop.

The last riot I nipped to the shop to find out what was happening as a lot of people had suddenly appeared on acre lane.  By the time I was leaving the shop a few mins later there were riot vans outside too and it was kicking off.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> we've had sirens and helicopters all night, a10 is red hot this evening.



hearing a lot more now - can't see there being any rioting in Upper Clapton - the shops are all shite.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 7, 2011)

Dowie said:


> I 'acted the cunt' for posting an opinion?
> 
> Yes I was wrong, I'm surprised that it was a police bullet but I'm happy to admit that I was wrong.
> 
> The whole posting abuse at people you don't agree with thing... not really called for tbh..



So if I was in the pub with you and a bloke came along and told us he had some invisible, intangible gold for sale and you took your wallet out to buy some, prompting me to call you a fucking idiot, would that be me throwing "abuse at people I don't agree with" too? Only that's on pretty much the same level as what you did.

I mean, this is essentially the story you fell for: "there was an armed, dangerous gangster in a taxi - he tried to shoot a brave, armed copper but fortunately the bullet lodged in his radio without him noticing, despite the *fucking massive bruise* he would inevitably have received as a consequence, which saved his life. So they were _forced_ to *shoot him in the face, twice, while he was on the ground*".

You've basically claimed a man who has been executed without trial deserved it, despite the fact he didn't actually fire a single bullet. Where I come from that's considered a bit of a cunt's trick. That's not me abusing you because we disagree - that's me calling you a cunt because you're a cunt.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 7, 2011)

Belushi said:


> You're closest, go down and have a look.


Nipsla and memespring are closest.   I've had no radio contact from them for hours.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 7, 2011)

Isn't there a webcam outside Brixton Tube?


----------



## Tankus (Aug 7, 2011)

theres a small mob trying to access walthamstow market ..the police have sealed off the roads


----------



## malice (Aug 7, 2011)

dylans said:


> Guardian site has it now


yes, but they're quoting exactly the same source as everyone else, one telegraph reporter on twitter, andrew hough, and his photos show a lot of police, and no rioters. Walked down the high street not long about (maybe 30mins now) and seemed fine. Maybe problematic elsewhere, but does seem over the top. Anyone nearer (I'm on the hill)?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> I have been to the shop. I am now back from the shop.
> 
> The last riot I nipped to the shop to find out what was happening as a lot of people had suddenly appeared on acre lane. By the time I was leaving the shop a few mins later there were riot vans outside too and it was kicking off.



Normally takes a while go get up the Hill, wouldn't worry about it.

I walked all the way down Acre Lane during the 1985 riots looking for some food and cigarettes as petrol station on the Hill had been smashed up and shops in Elm Park were shut   They stopped setting skips on fire just short of Elm Park and there was a skip outside my flat.  It was a comfort to know that there were some fire brigade wagons parked in Jebb Avenue


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> there are no excuses, just reasons. and there are many reasons. anger at the police, despair at being let down yet again by a government that only cares for their rich mates, the feeling by youths that they have nothing left to lose....



And I can understand and sympathise to a certain extent with those reasons, but how does burning out young families and ruining small businessmen trying to scratch a living help their cause?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> That's better!
> 
> Why does it not seem reasonable to suppose that the rioters were in common cause? The video posted here and on other sites seems to show that the target of the rioters attacks were the police, they had that in common didn't they? When they looted and burned shops they seemed to have a common endeavour didn't they? As they queued to ransack JJB sports and Comet they seemed of one mind!
> 
> Tonight in Enfield, what is the excuse?


are you thick or something? your post shows that you see 'the rioters' as one homogenous body when all the evidence points the other way. now fuck off.


----------



## shaman75 (Aug 7, 2011)

Is this basically gangs going off to rival territories to smash up their fast food places and nick loads of goods out of the shops?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Nipsla and memespring are closest. I've had no radio contact from them for hours.



Maybe they're asleep?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 7, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> And I can understand and sympathise to a certain extent with those reasons, but how does burning out young families and ruining small businessmen trying to scratch a living help their cause?


it doesn't. don't you understand? a riot isn't a demonstration to further a cause. it is a spontaneous reaction to injustices.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Is this basically gangs going off to rival territories to smash up their fast food places and nick loads of goods out of the shops?



Large groups of young people...part of me thinks that it's better they damage property than eachother for a change.


----------



## Chuff (Aug 8, 2011)

interesting that a voluntary media blackout is occurring?


----------



## cantsin (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> So if I was in the pub with you and a bloke came along and told us he had some invisible, intangible gold for sale and you took your wallet out to buy some, prompting me to call you a fucking idiot, would that be me throwing "abuse at people I don't agree with" too? Only that's on pretty much the same level as what you did.
> 
> I mean, this is essentially the story you fell for: "there was an armed, dangerous gangster in a taxi - he tried to shoot a brave, armed copper but fortunately the bullet lodged in his radio without him noticing, despite the *fucking massive bruise* he would inevitably have received as a consequence, which saved his life. So they were _forced_ to *shoot him in the face, twice, while he was on the ground*".
> 
> You've basically claimed a man who has been executed without trial deserved it, despite the fact he didn't actually fire a single bullet. Where I come from that's considered a bit of a cunt's trick. That's not me abusing you because we disagree - that's me calling you a cunt because you're a cunt.



nice one for actually spelling it out, this one's such a MASSIVE plum


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe they're asleep?


maybe they've been nicked


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

skitr said:


> People on another forum I read are saying call in the S.A.S and Army


Apart from anything else, they don't display a good understanding of the constitutional issues involved.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> are you thick or something? your post shows that you see 'the rioters' as one homogenous body when all the evidence points the other way. now fuck off.



I see I was correct in my earlier assumption, you disappoint me!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2011)

Kingsland Road shopping Centre may well be getting looted too....


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I see I was correct in my earlier assumption, you disappoint me!


i don't give a fuck. you've shown you're full of shit, that you're prepared to lie (badly) when it suits you, and that you hold yourself to lower standards than you do other people. which makes you something of a cunt, in my book.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> is this supposed to be a letter to the daily telegraph? Wanton bestiality!



Is that something to do with fucking a horse that makes eyes at you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Kingsland Road shopping Centre may well be getting looted too....


bollocks i should have gone to sainsbury's tonight in that case


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe they're asleep?



This is not satisfactory.  they are my eyes and ears on the ground in Brixtong town.

Don't think there's much going on anyway despite twisteria.


----------



## Dowie (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> I mean, this is essentially the story you fell for: "there was an armed, dangerous gangster in a taxi - he tried to shoot a brave, armed copper but fortunately the bullet lodged in his radio without him noticing, despite the *fucking massive bruise* he would inevitably have received as a consequence, which saved his life. So they were _forced_ to *shoot him in the face, twice, while he was on the ground*".



Well you've managed to add some extra details so no that isn't the story I fell for - I did believe, from the reports, that an exchange of fire had taken place. A decent enough portion of the media did too as did plenty of other people who'd heard the story. Some of the news reports even stated that there *was* and exchange of fired. I did state that I was concluding there was due to the gun recovered from scene, bullet lodged in police radio - that still doesn't really seem that illogical a conclusion to make on the face of it.



> You've basically claimed a man who has been executed without trial deserved it, despite the fact he didn't actually fire a single bullet. Where I come from that's considered a bit of a cunt's trick. That's not me abusing you because we disagree - that's me calling you a cunt because you're a cunt.



Nah that's you abusing me tbh... I'm not trying to 'trick' anyone - I shared an opinion on a news story based on facts that were made available - you didn't like it and rather than simply disagree you felt the need to resort to petty name calling and abuse. FWIW Calling it an 'execution' is making the same mistake I made earlier - it might well turn out to have been but given that the full account hasn't yet been released you're now making an assumption too.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2011)

Looting all over local areas in London, police stretched to buggery, NICE ONE BORIS, enjoy your holiday.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I see I was correct in my earlier assumption, you disappoint me!



Christ, not another one. Where are they coming from?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Christ, not another one. Where are they coming from?


they walk amongst us


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> it doesn't. don't you understand? a riot isn't a demonstration to further a cause. it is a spontaneous reaction to injustices.



By heaping further injustice on the already disadvantaged? How does that work? Do you really think that Cameron will lose a wink of sleep over this? It does not affect him or his class! all that happens is that poor people have their neighbourhood blighted their homes destroyed, and a few criminals have got a free telly!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> That's brave talk! What if it was your home or business that was destroyed? Your family terrorised?



I'd be fucked off, no doubt about that.
Thing is, I'd be asking *why* the whole thing happened, and I'd be apportioning blame where it was deserved: at the actors and actions that caused the eruption, not just at those who reacted to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> By heaping further injustice on the already disadvantaged? How does that work? Do you really think that Cameron will lose a wink of sleep over this? It does not affect him or his class! all that happens is that poor people have their neighbourhood blighted their homes destroyed, and a few criminals have got a free telly!


by 'heaping further injustice on the already disadvantaged' do you mean 'shooting them down like dogs and lying about it'?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Well you've managed to add some extra details so no that isn't the story I fell for - I did believe, from the reports that an exchange of fire had taken place. A decent enough portion of the media did too as did plenty of other people who'd heard the story.
> 
> Nah that's you abusing me tbh... I'm not trying to 'trick' anyone - I shared an opinion on a news story based on facts that were made available - you didn't like it and rather than simply disagree you felt the need to resort to petty name calling and abuse. FWIW Calling it an 'execution' is making the same mistake I made earlier - it might well turn out to have been but given that the full account hasn't yet been released you're now making an assumption too.



You're being deliberately obtuse now. You didn't base it on "facts that were made available" - you based it on statements made by known liars with an obvious motive for obscuring the truth. Now go away and kick a puppy or whatever it is you do for fun.

I'm basing the execution thesis on far, far more reliable evidence than your gangster who had it coming thesis. Eye witness reports from people who have no incentive to lie tend to be more reliable than carefully worded statements by professional liars.

Now please go away, you're ruining an important thread and I suspect that by responding to your tedious whining I'm helping you ruin it.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 8, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Is this basically gangs going off to rival territories to smash up their fast food places and nick loads of goods out of the shops?


It's a load of kids who don't give a stuff about anything or anybody, going out for what they can get.  They've seen it on Youtube, it looks too easy.  they're probably the same kids that come up here every summer in the school holidays, hanging about outside our marina fence, studying it carefully, noting which bikes aren't chained up, who has a laptop.  Then one day, they come over the fence in a mob and help themselves.  They're opportunists.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Eye witness reports from people who have no incentive to lie ....


----------



## marty21 (Aug 8, 2011)

I keep seeing 'Community leaders' being interviewed about the riots - how does one become a 'community leader' ?  I don't know who my local 'Community leaders' are.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


>


Go on then - what stake did the bystanders who said he was shot in the face while he was pinned down have in all this? I'm all ears. I don't know about you but I know who I believe if it's their word against that of the met.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

To be fair, a lot of people still believe the police version of events, as reported by media demonstrably colluding with those cops in an assortment of unethical and morally repugnant practices, and after seeing the cops repeatedly use their mates in the media to publish cynical self-serving lies placing the blame on various people they've killed in dodgy circumstances.

It's a bit like supporting your team even though you know they're shit I expect ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

marty21 said:


> I keep seeing 'Community leaders' being interviewed about the riots - how does one become a 'community leader' ? I don't know who my local 'Community leaders' are.


there's a quick test:

q: do you condemn the riot?
a: yes

if that's what you'd say then you too can be a community leader.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> This is not satisfactory. they are my eyes and ears on the ground in Brixtong town.
> 
> Don't think there's much going on anyway despite twisteria.


 
Go and ring their doorbell and wake 'em up  

Helicopter's out and about again


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2011)

marty21 said:


> I keep seeing 'Community leaders' being interviewed about the riots - how does one become a 'community leader' ? I don't know who my local 'Community leaders' are.



You're an Irishman aren't you Marty? In that case its your local Priest.

I'm a Welsh living in Lambeth, in which case my community leader is probably the editor.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

You're closer! @minnie


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2011)

marty21 said:


> I keep seeing 'Community leaders' being interviewed about the riots - how does one become a 'community leader' ? I don't know who my local 'Community leaders' are.


I think they mean community activists, meaning active members of the community.


----------



## Dowie (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> You're being deliberately obtuse now. You didn't base it on "facts that were made available" - you based it on statements made by known liars with an obvious motive for obscuring the truth. Now go away and kick a puppy or whatever it is you do for fun.



I did base it on facts made available.... ok the IPCC 'facts' released to the press but still they weren't untrue they'd just left a few details out - which does in itself stink tbh...



> I'm basing the execution thesis on far, far more reliable evidence than your gangster who had it coming thesis. Eye witness reports from people who have no incentive to lie tend to be more reliable than carefully worded statements by professional liars.



Ah your opinion is a 'thesis' now whereas mine was a 'cunts trick' - get off your high horse - you're basing an opinion on rumours and its no more valid than the one I got shown up for posting.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> You're closer! @minnie


 
I'm not dressed


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> To be fair, a lot of people still believe the police version of events, as reported by media demonstrably colluding with those cops in an assortment of unethical and morally repugnant practices, and after seeing the cops repeatedly use their mates in the media to publish cynical self-serving lies placing the blame on various people they've killed in dodgy circumstances.



But how many of those people have had it spelled out to them, as anyone viewing this thread did? Ignorance is one thing - willful ignorance is another. When confronted with the old bill's previous for this kind of stuff he just stuck his fingers in his ears and went "lalala!". And now he's whining because he's been called on it.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd be fucked off, no doubt about that.
> Thing is, I'd be asking *why* the whole thing happened, and I'd be apportioning blame where it was deserved: at the actors and actions that caused the eruption, not just at those who reacted to it.



Would you really? Or as is far more likely you would be distraught at the fact that your home that you had worked for and your possessions that you had managed to collect had been destroyed on a whim by a mob, and for what?

What will all of this achieve? Will Cameron and Clegg have an epiphany? Will they change their policy tomorrow? You know they wont! It will be the same old way tomorrow and next year, all that will happen is some people will have lost their homes and businesses and will be the poorer because of it.

Oh, and of course some people will have a free telly and some trainers!


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2011)

you still don't understand - none of this was done to achieve anything. it was an angry reaction, not a demonstration with clear aims.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Dowie said:


> I did base it on facts made available.... ok the IPCC 'facts' released to the press but still they weren't untrue they'd just left a few details out - which does in itself stink tbh...
> 
> Ah your opinion is a 'thesis' now whereas mine was a 'cunts trick' - get off your high horse - you're basing an opinion on rumours and its no more valid than the one I got shown up for posting.



Bollocks. We know the bullet that was conveniently found in the radio came from a police gun. We have eye witness accounts that match what I suspected right from the start. I think it's reasonable to assume from this that, on the balance of probability, he was executed. I'm sure there'll be another "poor me, look, I'm being oppressed" post in reply to this but I'll not take the time to respond - you're clearly willing to ruin this thread before admitting you've been a pillock.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

I go away for the weekend and return to find that 1) urban75 now has avatars and 2) riots have been kicking off all over London. Coincidence?


----------



## marty21 (Aug 8, 2011)

Belushi said:


> You're an Irishman aren't you Marty? In that case its your local Priest.
> 
> I'm a Welsh living in Lambeth, in which case my community leader is probably the editor.


I haven't  been to a catholic church for a normal Sunday service since 1984! no idea who the local Catholic priest is.


----------



## shaman75 (Aug 8, 2011)

claimed to be brixton looting http://www.twitvid.com/GGNHC


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> I go away for the weekend and return to find that 1) urban75 now has avatars and 2) riots have been kicking off all over London. Coincidence?


could you take a few more days off and then we can finish this thing


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Go on then - what stake did the bystanders who said he was shot in the face while he was pinned down have in all this?



 What, you mean apart from dicking over the OB?



> I don't know about you but I know who I believe if it's their word against that of the met.



Do you know who these bystanders are? There's no reliable information from either side at the moment, but it's way to early to be believing tales of "executions", particularly ones supposedly carried out in front of hordes of "bystanders".


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> But how many of those people have had it spelled out to them, as anyone viewing this thread did? Ignorance is one thing - willful ignorance is another. When confronted with the old bill's previous for this kind of stuff he just stuck his fingers in his ears and went "lalala!". And now he's whining because he's been called on it.



Well, I still believe that Ian Rush was a better player than Ronaldo ... *shrug*


----------



## Dr_Gonzo (Aug 8, 2011)

Just seen this video of Foot Locker in Brixton getting looted http://twitvid.com/GGNHC


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 8, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Kingsland Road shopping Centre may well be getting looted too....


it's not, hysterical media rubbish.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Well, I still believe that Ian Rush was a better player than Ronaldo ... *shrug*



Well he certainly had a better mustache!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> What, you mean apart from dicking over the OB?
> 
> Do you know who these bystanders are? There's no reliable information from either side at the moment, but it's way to early to be believing tales of "executions", particularly ones supposedly carried out in front of hordes of "bystanders".


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Large groups of young people...part of me thinks that it's better they damage property than eachother for a change.



I've been wondering for a few hours now the affects on gangs as they realise they have a common enemy.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> you still don't understand - none of this was done to achieve anything. it was an angry reaction, not a demonstration with clear aims.


Ok, lets go with that for a minute. How do you explain tonight's violence in Enfield Woodgreen and westfield?  I still think it's opportunistic criminality with Mark Duggans death as an excuse.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Totally conflicting reports on twitter from brixton.  Looting going on now!  Nothing happening!

Some video on coldharbour lane.

http://yfrog.com/0wsk4z


----------



## Dowie (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Bollocks. We know the bullet that was conveniently found in the radio came from a police gun. We have eye witness accounts that match what I suspected right from the start. I think it's reasonable to assume from this that, on the balance of probability, he was executed. I'm sure there'll be another "poor me, look, I'm being oppressed" post in reply to this but I'll not take the time to respond - you're clearly willing to ruin this thread before admitting you've been a pillock.



We know that now, yes.... we didn't actually know that previously. It wasn't immediately obvious that was the case at all! I've already admitted I was wrong about an assumption a few times actually and yes I do object to abusive postings made towards me so I will reply to them. I'm not trying to disrupt the thread but if you quote a post by me then call me a cunt as done previously its not really surprising that I'd reply to it. I don't think its reasonable at this point to assume he was executed - we simply don't know at the moment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I still think


i'm not so sure you do


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> Ok, lets go with that for a minute. How do you explain tonight's violence in Enfield Woodgreen and westfield? I still think it's opportunistic criminality with Mark Duggans death as an excuse.


like i said earlier, many youths feel like they've got nothing left to lose. 'opportunistic criminality' is the only way for them to achieve the things they aspire to.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> What, you mean apart from dicking over the OB?
> 
> Do you know who these bystanders are? There's no reliable information from either side at the moment, but it's way to early to be believing tales of "executions", particularly ones supposedly carried out in front of hordes of "bystanders".



I'll bet you £10 to the server fund that 1) the OB weren't fired on and 2) he was at the very least no direct threat to the lives of any police when he was shot. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is on this. And I'm fucking positive that the version I believe is a damn site more plausible than the magic radio stopping a bullet killing a copper without him even feeling it - despite the radio shaped bruise and probable broken bones.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> I go away for the weekend and return to find that 1) urban75 now has avatars and 2) riots have been kicking off all over London. Coincidence?



Did you take pics on your way through Brixton?


----------



## Tankus (Aug 8, 2011)

riot police going past my window...gone quiet now ...still around 20 police , but the dogs have gone ...no traffic ...nothing ... police just seem to be waiting


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> like i said earlier, many youths feel like they've got nothing left to lose. 'opportunistic criminality' is the only way for them to achieve the things they aspire to.



And that makes it all OK does it? Because they can't afford by legitimate means the latest Panasonic 52" widescreen 3D TV, or the latest Nike trainers it's OK to go out and nick them and then burn down the store!


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not so sure you do



Hmmm, let me see! ..... Yes I really do!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> And that makes it all OK does it? Because they can't afford by legitimate means the latest Panasonic 52" widescreen 3D TV, or the latest Nike trainers it's OK to go out and nick them and then burn down the store!



Yes. Now please shut up.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> And that makes it all OK does it? Because they can't afford by legitimate means the latest Panasonic 52" widescreen 3D TV, or the latest Nike trainers it's OK to go out and nick them and then burn down the store!


i'm just telling you why this is happening. all you want to do is tut.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> Hmmm, let me see! ..... Yes I really do!


doesn't look like it. you embarrass yourself every time you post.


----------



## toblerone3 (Aug 8, 2011)

.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

Dowie said:


> We know that now, yes.... we didn't actually know that previously. It wasn't immediately obvious that was the case at all! I've already admitted I was wrong about an assumption a few times actually and yes I do object to abusive postings made towards me so I will reply to them. I'm not trying to disrupt the thread but if you quote a post by me then call me a cunt as done previously its not really surprising that I'd reply to it. I don't think its reasonable at this point to assume he was executed - we simply don't know at the moment.



I wonder though, exactly how are the Met firearms teams trained?

The Stephen Waldorf shooting happened in the 80's but they didn't actually manage to kill him.

Presumably they've been practicing since then ...

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...ephen-waldorf-just-ten-years-ago-1477750.html


----------



## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Did you take pics on your way through Brixton?


No, I came back via Denmark Hill. I did notice 4 police vans parked up outside Kings A & E though which I thought was unusual.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> doesn't look like it. you embarrass yourself every time you post.



Not as much as you do!


----------



## William of Walworth (Aug 8, 2011)

My knowledge of what's gone up in N17 last night is not much above zero so far -- I've been away from the PC all weekend, and the mainstream media isn't telling me much. Unsurprisingly.

My instinct though is to blame the Police. People kicking off to that extent doesn't happen for no reason.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

William of Walworth said:


> My knowledge of what's gone up in N17 last night is not much above zero so far -- I've been away from the PC all weekend, and the mainstream media isn't telling me much. Unsurprisingly.
> 
> My instinct though is to blame the Police. People kicking off to that extent doesn't happen for no reason.


and your instinct is right


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> What, you mean apart from dicking over the OB?
> 
> Do you know who these bystanders are? There's no reliable information from either side at the moment, but it's way to early to be believing tales of "executions", particularly ones supposedly carried out in front of hordes of "bystanders".



you were denying wrongdoing in the death of Ian Tomlinson untill it was video clear, hence you are a mug when it comes to assesing  the actions of the met. I'm sure your a nice man but your opinion on law and order is worth the steam off my shit


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> Not as much as you do!


quit the pantomime shit. your 17 posts have shown you to be a liar and someone not to be trusted. you have trouble dealing with not very complex concepts. you're an all-round waste of space.


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 8, 2011)

http://twitter.com/#!/mattholehouse/status/100348698164334592

Hackney looting (?)


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> i'm just telling you why this is happening. all you want to do is tut.



I hear what you are saying, and if I had grown up on some sink estate the product of dysfunctional parents, had not achieved anything educationally and all that I aspired to was hanging round on street corners, mugging teenagers for their mobiles and wishing I could be a drug lord, then yes I may well think that riot, looting and arson was the answer.

But we all know it's not don't we?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> http://twitter.com/#!/mattholehouse/status/100348698164334592
> 
> 
> Hackney looting (?)


there's this video from dalston:


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I hear what you are saying, and if I had grown up on some sink estate the product of dysfunctional parents, had not achieved anything educationally and all that I aspired to was hanging round on street corners, mugging teenagers for their mobiles and wishing I could be a drug lord, then yes I may well think that riot, looting and arson was the answer.
> 
> But we all know it's not don't we?


depends what the question is.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> quit the pantomime shit. your 17 posts have shown you to be a liar and someone not to be trusted. you have trouble dealing with not very complex concepts. you're an all-round waste of space.



Lol


----------



## William of Walworth (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I hear what you are saying, and if I had grown up on some sink estate the product of dysfunctional parents, had not achieved anything educationally and all that I aspired to was hanging round on street corners, mugging teenagers for their mobiles and wishing I could be a drug lord, then yes I may well think that riot, looting and arson was the answer.
> 
> But we all know it's not don't we?



Nor is it any kind of answer for the Police to provoke riots.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I hear what you are saying, and if I had grown up on some sink estate the product of dysfunctional parents, had not achieved anything educationally and all that I aspired to was hanging round on street corners, mugging teenagers for their mobiles and wishing I could be a drug lord, then yes I may well think that riot, looting and arson was the answer.
> 
> But we all know it's not don't we?


eh? that doesn't make any sense


----------



## smokedout (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> And that makes it all OK does it? Because they can't afford by legitimate means the latest Panasonic 52" widescreen 3D TV, or the latest Nike trainers it's OK to go out and nick them and then burn down the store!



sounds ok to me


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I hear what you are saying, and if I had grown up on some sink estate the product of dysfunctional parents, had not achieved anything educationally and all that I aspired to was hanging round on street corners, mugging teenagers for their mobiles and wishing I could be a drug lord, then yes I may well think that riot, looting and arson was the answer.
> 
> But we all know it's not don't we?



And who has said that it is the answer?

(I thought the editor promised a better quality of noob with these new boards - they're fucking toss, so far)


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> eh? that doesn't make any sense


chrispeptide doesn't do sense


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> eh? that doesn't make any sense



of course it doesn't, but they still do it don't they?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> you were denying wrongdoing in the death of Ian Tomlinson untill it was video clear ....



Nope, I just didn't rush to conclusions as quickly as others.

I take it you're buying this "execution on the pavement" gig then?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Nope, I just didn't rush to conclusions as quickly as others.
> 
> I take it you're buying this "execution on the pavement" gig then?



I don't think you have to buy the 'execution on the pavement' thing in order to be awake to the possibility that the Met are a bunch of incompetent lying tossers who will reflexively use their corrupt pals in the media to blacken the name of anyone they might happen to shoot repeatedly in the face, for whatever reason ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Nope, I just didn't rush to conclusions as quickly as others.
> 
> I take it you're buying this "execution on the pavement" gig then?


that's the best way of putting 'i was gullible' i have seen in quite some time. your loyalty to the police however does you no credit


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> And who has said that it is the answer?
> 
> (I thought the editor promised a better quality of noob with these new boards - they're fucking toss, so far)



Oi! I'm not a noob I have been a member for two years!


----------



## Roonster (Aug 8, 2011)

I'll tell anyone this..I live on the Old Kent Road .. if anyone has got a grievence against the old bill in whatever manor they live in then deal with it in your area.. do not make the mistake of stirring up shit down this road.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> of course it doesn't, but they still do it don't they?


no, what you said doesn't make any sense as it is a morass of contradiction


----------



## William of Walworth (Aug 8, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I don't think you have to buy the 'execution on the pavement' thing in order to be awake to the possibility that the Met are a bunch of incompetent lying tossers who will reflexively use their corrupt pals in the media to blacken the name of anyone they might happen to shoot repeatedly in the face, for whatever reason ...


 
Exactly. Read a report or two now. Just because the 'execution on the pavement' idea MIGHT include some exaggerations, doesn't mean the Met haven't got all sports of questions to answer.

This thought has probably been posted already, but the way the IPCC seem to have been issuing statement after statement today, and the Met issuing far fewer, seems pretty significant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Roonster said:


> I'll tell anyone this..I live on the Old Kent Road .. if anyone has got a grievence against the old bill in whatever manor they live in then deal with it in your area.. do not make the mistake of stirring up shit down this road.


i hadn't thought of going down the old kent road until you mentioned it.

what about if someone from the old kent road's got a grievance against the cops?


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i hadn't thought of going down the old kent road until you mentioned it.
> 
> what about if someone from the old kent road's got a grievance against the cops?



Funny, it was one of the first places I thought of. Nice big PC world.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

One statement that the Met conspicuously haven't issued is 'The Guardian is talking bollocks when it says the bullet in the officers radio was a police bullet'


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Hi-Q footage of the Tottenham aftermath from Russia Today.


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 8, 2011)

Trashing the olympic site would be good for some lulz


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> One statement that the Met conspicuously haven't issued is 'The Guardian is talking bollocks when it says the bullet in the officers radio was a police bullet'


 Nor the guardian vice versa


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Nope, I just didn't rush to conclusions as quickly as others.
> 
> I take it you're buying this "execution on the pavement" gig then?



no, you took met line, hook and sinker. I'm buying nothing yet, other than 'this stinks of another met fatality and cover job- the bullet in the radio is one of theirs. We shall see.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

William of Walworth said:


> Just because the 'execution on the pavement' idea MIGHT include some exaggerations, doesn't mean the Met haven't got all sports of questions to answer.



Of course there are questions to answer. They've shot someone. Do you think those questions are reasonably answered by anonymous "bystanders" a few hours after the event?


----------



## William of Walworth (Aug 8, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Hi-Q footage of the Tottenham aftermath from Russia Today.




Kinnell, that footage is high resolution!


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Can they be asked? Can they be trusted to the the police? Or the IPCC? Half the police story has been blasted away already. One day. One day later.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

William of Walworth said:


> Kinnell, that footage is high resolution!



I did say!


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Of course there are questions to answer. They've shot someone. Do you think those questions are reasonably answered by anonymous "bystanders" a few hours after the event?



Clearly not, but there is at least the possibility they are telling the truth.

With 'police sources' quoted in the Sun regarding someone that the police just killed, past form suggests that there is very little probability that it's the truth and a strong probability that it's a pack of self-serving lies intended to smear the person they killed.


----------



## William of Walworth (Aug 8, 2011)

Might be kicking off tonight again in other parts of London? Enfield?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2011)

oh william. you've arrived too late for the party again


----------



## William of Walworth (Aug 8, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I did say!



I know, but I was quite impressed by that footage. Brought it home to me how  much had gone on last night much better than the bits I saw on the BBC in the pub, earlier this evening.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

William of Walworth said:


> Might be kicking off tonight again in other parts of London? Enfield?


Brixton in flames. Dalston too. And that other one.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

cantsin said:


> nice one for actually spelling it out, this one's such a MASSIVE plum



Ah, Catshit getting a stiffy over a bit of looting! No surprise there.

Did someone beat you to the gym knickers in H&M?


----------



## William of Walworth (Aug 8, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> oh william. you've arrived too late for the party again


 
So? I've never thrown a rock or a Molotov at the Police in my life. Other know better how to go about that kinda malarkey


----------



## Tankus (Aug 8, 2011)

......had a brief walk around ....nothing happening in walthamstow..... no one around ..the market is empty , apart from a full police van with riot gear  every 100metres or so . didn't go up to the station ...spoke to one officer said " that they would be here all night " ......It was just some shouting earlier ...and that was it .no damage either ...just a bit of noise ..with a bit of luck

Police dogs have gone elsewhere ...starting to rain ...hopefully that's it


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Outsider


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

> Initial reports from the IPCC were that during an apparent exchange of fire police officers from C019 fired two shots and Duggan died at the scene. The suggestion was that officers could have come under fire from a minicab carrying Duggan. Much of this assumption came from the fact that a bullet had lodged in a police radio worn by an officer at the scene – raising speculation he might have been fired at from the vehicle. A non-police issue handgun was also recovered at the scene where Duggan was shot dead in Ferry Road.
> 
> The latest developments come as one community organiser suggested the handgun recovered was found in a sock and therefore not ready for use. It is likely to fuel anger on the streets of Tottenham and elsewhere in London if it provides evidence that officers were not under attack at the time they opened fire on Duggan.
> 
> The IPCC said on Sunday: "We await further forensic analysis to enable us to have a fuller and more comprehensive account of what shots were discharged, the sequence of events and what exactly happened. In the meantime we would request people are patient while we seek to find answers to the questions raised by this incident."



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2011)

typical. i move out of london and a couple of weeks later they're rioting.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

_Come back_ they cry.


----------



## Tankus (Aug 8, 2011)

you would


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Tankus said:


> you would


...... .........  .. ,  .  ... "  " ......

  ... ...hopefully that's it


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> _Come back_ they cry.


i bet they do.

i'm surprised londoners can actually do anything practical without a northener showing them how to do it. i'm also surprised they haven't got a bunch of poles to riot for them, they're cheaper and don't take as many breaks.


----------



## Tankus (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> ...... ......... .. , . ... " " ......
> 
> ... ...hopefully that's it



not from me ...... your irritation is far too amusing


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

discokermit said:


> i bet they do.
> 
> i'm surprised londoners can actually do anything practical without a northener showing them how to do it. i'm also surprised they haven't got a bunch of poles to riot for them, they're cheaper and don't take as many breaks.


Got a better culture too. They drink outside with their kids and that.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

discokermit said:


> i bet they do.
> 
> i'm surprised londoners can actually do anything practical without a northener showing them how to do it. i'm also surprised they haven't got a bunch of poles to riot for them, they're cheaper and don't take as many breaks.


 
annoyed you didn't get to cast the first stone eh


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

pmsl @ some people tweeting from Brixton and proper shitting it, you wanted the grittiness of a inner-city life and you got it. Stop whimpering or move back to the suburbs.


----------



## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> pmsl @ some people tweeting from Brixton and proper shitting it, you wanted the grittiness of a inner-city life and you got it. Stop whimpering or move back to the suburbs.





The West Londoner blog is reporting that Morrisons in Chingford is on fire.

No verification, but they seem to have been fairly detailed in their coverage of events in Brixton.


----------



## rorymac (Aug 8, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> The retards are the ones burning and looting their own community. What does this do for Tottenham? How does this improve anything?



Go fuck yourself you conservative dork !
Just fuck off !!


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> annoyed you didn't get to cast the first stone eh


not half.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 8, 2011)

if someone could set fire to the workshops at 41-43, gloucester road, croydon, i would very much appreciate it. ta.


----------



## flickerx (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm just back from Brixton now. Some sports shops were set on fire, a pawn shop & computer game shop got broken into on Brixton Road, some clothes shops too. Coldharbour Lane is a mess, covered in smashed glass and remnants of stuff set on fire like bins. I dont know what happened there but it definitely did look like something had kicked off a bit earlier. Police just closing off different streets. I wouldnt really call it rioting on the main road, more just looting (for me rioting is confrontation between two groups - when the police came along, people would just leg it off).
Very heavy rain sent me scurrying home (and lots of other lads I was talking with).


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

How is the Dogstar?


----------



## flickerx (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> pmsl @ some people tweeting from Brixton and proper shitting it, you wanted the grittiness of a inner-city life and you got it. Stop whimpering or move back to the suburbs.



Examples?


----------



## flickerx (Aug 8, 2011)

Didnt look at the dogstar


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

flickerx said:


> Examples?


David Lammy.


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

Who'd a thought that kids so often written off as neets & deadbeats could paralyse the great Londonium by a series of rolling attacks on several different fronts within a relatively short period.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> Who'd a thought that kids so often written off as neets & deadbeats could paralyse the great Londonium by a series of rolling attacks on several different fronts within a relatively short period.



Paralyse? What's paralysed?


----------



## Tankus (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> Who'd a thought that kids so often written off as neets & deadbeats could paralyse the great Londonium by a series of rolling attacks on several different fronts within a relatively short period.



give them a gun and send them to Afghanistan  !...or rather .....send them ...then give them a gun ....


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

Your police force for a start


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

Tankus said:


> give them a gun and send them to Afghanistan !...or rather .....send them ...then give them a gun ....



Some of them have them already but thankfully looks like they've been kept away


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> Your police force for a start



That helicopter hovering over me doesn't sound very paralysed.


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> That helicopter hovering over me doesn't sound very paralysed.


tell them to stop the open looting then


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> tell them to stop the open looting then



I reckon they care less about looting and more about not antagonising too many locals + audiences.


----------



## tar1984 (Aug 8, 2011)

If people are openly looting then law enforcement have obviously lost control.  Property protection is a big part of their job.


----------



## gosub (Aug 8, 2011)

ah but its not a riot, if it was riot then the met would be liable for all damages


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

tar1984 said:


> If people are openly looting then law enforcement have obviously lost control. Property protection is a big part of their job.



Not as big as preventing injuries and loss of life. In theory at least.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> David Lammy.


What has he tweeted from Brixton?


----------



## tar1984 (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Not as big as preventing injuries and loss of life. In theory at least.



In theory they should be doing both. They haven't done a great job in preventing injuries to their own either.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> What has he tweeted from Brixton?



Can't see that he's tweeted anything about Brixton tbh.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Fucking hell. Is it clods clog night or something?


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 8, 2011)

Where's the fucking 'wanker' button?


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I reckon they care less about looting and more about not antagonising too many locals + audiences.



Locals on TV earlier seemed antagonised about the slow response to the looting and even the Daily Mail and Telegraph are questioning the police command and response, so if you're right that was one hell of a shite tactic. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...riots-police-let-gangs-run-riot-and-loot.html

I loved this bit:


_But its tactics meant gangs of youths were free to break into stores at nearby Tottenham Hale retail park and in Wood Green, *with looters forming an orderly queue* in broad daylight to steal from a sports shop._

How fantastically English!


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

I can only hope Camerons holiday in tuscany has been ruined by this.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Fucking hell. Is it clods clog night or something?



http://twitter.com/#!/DavidLammy You tell me if you see Brixton mentioned.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

tar1984 said:


> If people are openly looting then law enforcement have obviously lost control. Property protection is a big part of their job.


 
wether its incompetence or canny 'don't ask me sarge durr' deliberate ineptitude they will have secured a halt to the cuts in police funding imo


----------



## tar1984 (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> wether its incompetence or canny 'don't ask me sarge durr' deliberate ineptitude they will have secured a halt to the cuts in police funding imo



Possibly. They did play a big part in it kicking off in the first place by attacking that girl, I wonder how much of that is done with the potential outcome in mind since it suits them in the long term for this to happen.


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 8, 2011)

caller on LBC - "these disaffected youth are not disaffected, they're just silly"

..ahh, finally, the voice of reason!!


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

twentythreedom said:


> caller on LBC - "these disaffected youth are not disaffected, they're just silly"
> 
> ..ahh, finally, the voice of reason!!



Orang Utan could set her straight!


----------



## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

Has this unpleasantness from Melanie Phillips been posted already?

https://twitter.com/#!/Mel_Phillips/status/100138123291394048


----------



## tar1984 (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Has this unpleasantness from Melanie Phillips been posted already?
> 
> https://twitter.com/#!/Mel_Phillips/status/100138123291394048



What a dick she is.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

tar1984 said:


> What a dick she is.



Unfair on dicks.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Has this unpleasantness from Melanie Phillips been posted already?
> 
> https://twitter.com/#!/Mel_Phillips/status/100138123291394048


 
thats not even crypto racist, it is just plain racist.


----------



## CNT36 (Aug 8, 2011)

I've never read through her tweets before. Words fail me. This ones just fucking nasty "Irish presidential hopeful forced to resign after revelations ex-partner raped a Palestinian boy. http://t.co/A24vYXj Kid prob a terrorist".
2 Aug


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 8, 2011)

LBC 97.3fm is worth a listen right now...    facepalm doesn't even come close!


----------



## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Has this unpleasantness from Melanie Phillips been posted already?
> 
> https://twitter.com/#!/Mel_Phillips/status/100138123291394048


 
Much as I dislike her, I'm afraid that's not _the_ Melanie Phillips' twitter account, but a fake.

@MelanieLatest is her real one.


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 8, 2011)

Young girls in designer togs and heels taking binbags to go looting at H+M!! They had this all planned already, so it seems...


----------



## tar1984 (Aug 8, 2011)

Oh well, she's still a dick.


----------



## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

Unless you think she'd really post this 




			
				Fake Mel_Phillips said:
			
		

> #Newsnight seems to have very unresponsive audience, I know the feeling .. I flicky my bean sometimes and hardly get any sensation at all.


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Has this unpleasantness from Melanie Phillips been posted already?



Isn't her whole career based on spreading unpleasantness?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 8, 2011)

Eddy Butler's blog on this is, as you might expect, amusingly all over the place. "Damn you, polyglots!" I think he may have learned a new word recently.

No link, obviously.


----------



## 66z (Aug 8, 2011)

I was at art festival on Fountayne Rd in Seven Sisters when this happened -- really pissed to have missed while being so close.

On the other hand I just got back from the Brixton riot.. err, looting. There was some struggle at Halfords/Curry's and the high street got lots of smashed windows and some fire. Looks like it's pretty much over by now with the riot police all over the place. Although I can still hear police sirens, lots of them so I guess there are many isolated incidents still taking place.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 8, 2011)

"Far from opposing the so-called excesses - instances of popular vengeance against hated individuals or against public buildings with which hateful memories are associated - the workers' party must not only tolerate these actions but must even give them direction."

This doesnt apply to burnt out small shopkeepers imo but violent hatred of the boss class and bourgeois state are objectively progressive.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Aug 8, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> "Far from opposing the so-called excesses - instances of popular vengeance against hated individuals or against public buildings with which hateful memories are associated - the workers' party must not only tolerate these actions but must even give them direction."
> 
> This doesnt apply to burnt out small shopkeepers imo but violent hatred of the boss class and bourgeois state are objectively progressive.



All I see is people wanting an excuse to go and nick a load of stuff that they probably already own in the first place. If anything the targets of these riots strike me as proof that the notion of materialism as a defining factor in how people view themselves is the only thing being expressed in this latest outbreak of violence.

In fact the whole thing seems to have a rather dreary feel to it all with no real 'anger' as such being expressed but just almost an outburst of kids thinking that they are able to actually live the video games they enjoy playing just for a couple of hours.

The ones I feel sorry for are those poor people burned out of their homes on Saturday night. People have been left with just the clothes (or in one case I heard of a dressing gown) they stood up in. And for what ? A branch of Carpet Right ? Who did they offend ? Ok their carpet fitters can be stroppy buggers and so on but is that really 'popular vengence' ?


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

Stoat Boy said:


> In fact the whole thing seems to have a rather dreary feel to it all with no real 'anger' as such being expressed but just almost an outburst of kids thinking that they are able to actually live the video games they enjoy playing just for a couple of hours.



I can't help but wish it was more like their video games - but with real guns and no 'extra lives'.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

Stoat Boy said:


> And for what ? A branch of Carpet Right ? Who did they offend ? Ok their carpet fitters can be stroppy buggers and so on but is that really 'popular vengence' ?



We are dealing with animals. There is no logic.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 8, 2011)

Some amazing footage on sky news this morning of people walking down the street carrying 40" LCD tvs!


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 8, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> "Far from opposing the so-called excesses - instances of popular vengeance against hated individuals or against public buildings with which hateful memories are associated - the workers' party must not only tolerate these actions but must even give them direction."
> 
> This doesnt apply to burnt out small shopkeepers imo but violent hatred of the boss class and bourgeois state are objectively progressive.


Really? Did people have "hateful memories" of sportswear shops and chemists?


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Really? Did people have "hateful memories" of sportswear shops and chemists?



Don't forget Body Shop...


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> Don't forget Body Shop...


we all have hateful memories of the body shop!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Really? Did people have "hateful memories" of sportswear shops and chemists?


childhood experiences can scar for life, even childhood experiences in sportswear shops or chemists


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

Still no excuse for that sort of behaviour anywhere in London.  All I'm hearing is excuses rather than justification.


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

Who gives a fuck about a bit of looting!? As an ex-employee of Currys I am greatly enjoying seeing the stores being cleared out.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

aj - That's because you're a simpleton. Which is fine, but your mind is empty and/or closed. You really would be happier on the Daily Mail comment pages.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 8, 2011)

Heard that there was some looting in Islington, and in Dalston - but they left Clapton alone


----------



## roctrevezel (Aug 8, 2011)

Garek said:


> Who gives a fuck about a bit of looting!? As an ex-employee of Currys I am greatly enjoying seeing the stores being cleared out.



There are now many towns in Britain with practically no shops left to loot even if someone had the desire to do so.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Has this unpleasantness from Melanie Phillips been posted already?
> 
> https://twitter.com/#!/Mel_Phillips/status/100138123291394048



That's fake Mel. This is real Mel. She's calling for a 'top American cop' to run the MET 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2023596/Tottenham-riot-Our-police-trusted-more.html#


----------



## Giles (Aug 8, 2011)

It's just a bunch of stupid useless scumbags grabbing some free brand-name trainers. They've got nothing to protest about. They are just out on a "gibs me dat" grab whatever they can mission.

Giles..


----------



## Random (Aug 8, 2011)

Seems like only chain shops attacked from what I've read. Any confirmed that small shops or homes attacked?


----------



## Random (Aug 8, 2011)

Anyone already mentioned the pathetic whining Nick Cohen article yesterday or so 'Where are the UK (anti austerity) riots?' lol you spoke to soon.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 8, 2011)

Random said:


> Seems like only chain shops attacked from what I've read. Any confirmed that small shops or homes attacked?



A block of 25 flats were set on fire and 'burnt down'.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

14 and 15-year olds are interested in games, trainers, phones, bikes and other electricals. Unless small shop-owners stock those....


----------



## Random (Aug 8, 2011)

Barking_Mad said:


> A block of 25 flats were set on fire and 'burnt down'.


Sounds nasty. Where's the report from?


----------



## rover07 (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> It's just a bunch of stupid useless scumbags grabbing some free brand-name trainers. They've got nothing to protest about. They are just out on a "gibs me dat" grab whatever they can mission.
> 
> Giles..



This is a Capitalist economy. Looters are sole traders taking the oppurtunity to increase their earnings. No different to any other business.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

No. They're kids on an adrenalin-fuelled beano.

You could see them yesterday afternoon. Oblivious to the crowds, moving around on their gansta buzz, waiting for the moment. Completely lost in their mid-teen world.

I'm not saying there isn't a wider (influencing) context but, for them, it's about the moment.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

double post


----------



## Giles (Aug 8, 2011)

They should shoot a few of them. They probabyl weren't going to get jobs anyway.

Giles..


----------



## rover07 (Aug 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> No. They're kids on an adrenalin-fuelled beano.



Yes. But they still have their business heads on.

Normally, looting shops would be far too risky. But with large numbers on the street and the Police under attack it becomes a much more attractive risk.


----------



## roctrevezel (Aug 8, 2011)

Random said:


> Seems like only chain shops attacked from what I've read. Any confirmed that small shops or homes attacked?



Seemed to be plenty of small shopkeepers have had problems from the reporting on BBC News 24, and on Radio 5 live in whilst the looting was going on. A woman was trapped in a flat over a shop with looters in it, buildings on fire nearby and she had a sick baby on oxygen, she had phoned Radio5 live because she could get no response on 999.
(I have not heard an update about that.)


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> We are dealing with animals. There is no logic.



Nothing like a bit of thinly veiled racism in first thing in the morning.


----------



## Random (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> They should shoot a few of them. They probabyl weren't going to get jobs anyway.


 Who needs to get a job when you can loot stuff instead?


----------



## Tankus (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Nothing like a bit of thinly veiled racism in first thing in the morning.


as well as a bit of PC idiocy......................... just for the sauce


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 8, 2011)

Random said:


> Sounds nasty. Where's the report from?



I heard a report on the radio this morning, this was after a search, not sure it's the same building or not - it might well be that fire spread to the building and that it wasnt deliberately targetted, either way... 


> Stuart Radose, who fled his flat as fire ravaged the building, told of his terror as he watched helplessly from his balcony when the rioters closed in.
> 
> “We live on the top floor and we could see the rioters coming closer. Aldi was on fire and barricades were being made by rioters. It was really scary,” he said.
> 
> ...



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...eaceful-vigil-led-to-devastating-carnage.html


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> They should shoot a few of them. They probabyl weren't going to get jobs anyway.
> 
> Giles..



I wish they'd fucking shoot you, you utter waste of electrons.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Tankus said:


> as well as a bit of PC idiocy......................... just for the sauce



It's PC gawn mad!!!! Never been accused of being in the PC brigade before, I'm bristling with pride


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

Stoat Boy said:


> All I see is people wanting an excuse to go and nick a load of stuff that they probably already own in the first place. If anything the targets of these riots strike me as proof that the notion of materialism as a defining factor in how people view themselves is the only thing being expressed in this latest outbreak of violence.



Agree with this bit. These kids have grown with the view that materialism and possessions are the most important things in life and that you can become famous and a celebrity for fucking a footballer. What they've also grown up with is the immoral and illegal invasion of Iraq based on politicians lies and the death and destruction that caused, while Blair and his ilk shrugged and said 'oh well' when the reasons for invasion were revealed as a lie. They've seen the immorality of tax avoidance by the wealthy and the actions of the banks result in their youth clubs and services now being closed. They've seen politicians that benefitted from full student grants and free education end the EMA and raise tuition fees. Even more recently, they've watched how the the media have broken privacy laws with impunity with the alleged help of the police force resulting in the relatives of people who have died having their phones hacked.

These kids are a product of the environment that their 'betters' and political leaders have created and we shouldn't be shocked or dismayed that they choose to reflect their morality too.


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Aug 8, 2011)

The Beeb says there were shenanigans on Coldharbour Lane.. is there anything to loot there? It's been ten years since I lived there so perhaps it has Delis or maybe even Carpet Rights now??


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Yep, it's the kind of materialist selfishness his hero Maggie encouraged and made necessary - you reap what you sew Stoat Boy.


----------



## Balbi (Aug 8, 2011)

The 'appeals' from politicos, priests and police aren't aimed at the rioters - they're aimed at calming an anxious populace. The rioters, so disenfranchised from the system, couldn't care less about press statements and vague threats. It's definitely showing how dangerous a situation can potentially become when people stop being afraid of police. In this country it means that people have got new tellys, phones and trainers - which highlights the lack of desire to change what's wrong, the fundamental reasons behind the disenfranchising of the young unemployed lost generation, abandoned by the government in the pursuit of dulling the claws of the financial big boys.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Nothing like a bit of thinly veiled racism in first thing in the morning.



Is that the best you can do? They are animals for their actions, not their race.


----------



## Giles (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> Agree with this bit. These kids have grown with the view that materialism and possessions are the most important things in life and that you can become famous and a celebrity for fucking a footballer. What they've also grown up with is the immoral and illegal invasion of Iraq based on politicians lies and the death and destruction that caused, while Blair and his ilk shrugged and said 'oh well' when the reasons for invasion were revealed as a lie. They've seen the immorality of tax avoidance by the wealthy and the actions of the banks result in their youth clubs and services now being closed. They've seen politicians that benefitted from full student grants and free education end the EMA and raise tuition fees. Even more recently, they've watched how the the media have broken privacy laws with impunity with the alleged help of the police force resulting in the relatives of people who have died having their phones hacked.
> 
> These kids are a product of the environment that their 'betters' and political leaders have created and we shouldn't be shocked or dismayed that they choose to reflect their morality too.



Bollocks. Its just the subspecies out to grab more shit, while causing maximum destruction all round. Which is just what they do.

Giles..


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> Is that the best you can do? They are animals for their actions, not their race.



Given your posting history I find that a little... unconvincing.


----------



## manny-p (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Bollocks. Its just the subspecies out to grab more shit, while causing maximum destruction all round. Which is just what they do.
> 
> Giles..


subspecies?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Bollocks. Its just the subspecies out to grab more shit, while causing maximum destruction all round. Which is just what they do.
> 
> Giles..



Whereas you're the _ubermensch_, clearly


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

If nothing else this thread has proved to be an incredibly effective cunt detector.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Given your posting history I find that a little... unconvincing.



Oh God, because I dared to mention that most of the looters I saw on Saturday were black? Yup, I'm a massive fucking racist.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> Oh God, because I dared to mention that most of the looters I saw on Saturday were black? Yup, I'm a massive fucking racist.



And the rest - not just on this thread either. At best you're a moron.


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> If nothing else this thread has proved to be an incredibly effective cunt detector.


i'd say it was an eyeopener, but i had most of their cards marked already.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> And the rest - not just on this thread either. At best you're a moron.



Good bit of ad hominem there. I'll respond in kind; you're a twat.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> Oh God, because I dared to mention that most of the looters I saw on Saturday were black? Yup, I'm a massive fucking racist.


Well that and tying that 'fact' to genetic de-evolution yes.


----------



## rover07 (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> I'm a massive fucking racist.



Enough said.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Well that and tying that 'fact' to genetic de-evolution yes.



Nothing genetic about it. It is entirely nurture versus nature.

People on here have suggested that looting is somehow justified because of the capitalist society we live in. I am merely saying that if we have an underclass of people who are sustained with benefits/crimes then what the frick do we expect?

Either I am right, the people who bemoan the capitalist system are right or neither of us are right.

What is undeniable is that there are people in Tottenham who are currently homeless through NO fault of their own.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> Nothing genetic about it. It is entirely nurture versus nature.
> 
> People on here have suggested that looting is somehow justified because of the capitalist society we live in. I am merely saying that if we have an underclass of people who are sustained with benefits/crimes then what the frick do we expect?
> 
> ...


You've suggested that people are poor because they're black. If you're arguing that there's a _culture_ which causes this then there's no need to bring colour into it at all. Yet you did. Why? I know why and so do you. If you've not got the bottle to openly state and then stand by your views then why are you here?

Banal second para that says nothing at all.

A third that makes me cry with emotion.


----------



## kmarxs&sparks (Aug 8, 2011)

First of all I should make it clear I think the EDL/BNP/Assorted other bigoted cretins are a bunch of evil cunts.
My internet is somewhere between a bit shit and totally crap so I only have half the story about these riots but I did a quick google to see what images I could get hold of. (Some of the photos were absolute stunners)
I did notice a hell of a lot of black and Asian faces in the middle of things along with a few white faces but not all that many compared with other races.
That means either the photographers were a tad biased or the majority were black/asian.
Either way, that leaves a problem with the racist parties. I haven't read "Silly cunt BNP racist newsletter" but I can take a wild guess what the daft bastards will be saying.
Sad day for anyone with a brain.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Can i see the research that you've done to establish that the rioters are unemployed and part of a benefits culture or whatever it is as well please Billie Piper. That would be very helpful.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

kmarxs&sparks said:


> First of all I should make it clear I think the EDL/BNP/Assorted other bigoted cretins are a bunch of evil cunts.
> My internet is somewhere between a bit shit and totally crap so I only have half the story about these riots but I did a quick google to see what images I could get hold of. (Some of the photos were absolute stunners)
> I did notice a hell of a lot of black and Asian faces in the middle of things along with a few white faces but not all that many compared with other races.
> That means either the photographers were a tad biased or the majority were black/asian.
> ...


It means fuck all.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> Good bit of ad hominem there. I'll respond in kind; you're a twat.



It's not an ad-hominem unless it's used in place of an argument - in this instance it was just a statement of fact.


----------



## Balbi (Aug 8, 2011)

There's also people who were already homeless, jobless and unsupported in any way before any of this happened through little or NO fault of their own. The people who've been told that employments an unlikely possibility, that they'll be living with their parents until their thirties, that a lack of social housing and stupidly high rents means they're stuck where they are, that they're going to have to stay at home and look after their children because their surestart closed down - further limiting their job opportunities. That they've got to pay off their overdraft now, or face increasing charges which they also can't pay. That the majority of aspirational adverts they see on TV and the stores they walk past in their local community are so far out of their reach that it's practically invisible. And most importantly, they're being told that they're all in it together with people on hugely expensive holidays who've never struggled in their lives, the same people who fucked off and left them in the hands of a police force with a track record of shooting the wrong people, putting out lies to discredit the victim, and taking money from newspapers to harrass victims and their families.

They'd be some of the angry ones then.


----------



## Random (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Can i see thew research that you've done to establish that the rioters are unemployed and part of a benefits culture or whatever it is as well please Billie Piper. That would be very helpful.


And maybe Giles can help out with some smart bullets that only kill people without jobs, or job prospects.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 8, 2011)

had to chuckle, from Twitter:



> @prodnose: The Pound shop in Enfield was looted. Owners say hundreds of items were stolen. "The cost is incalculable".


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Can i see the research that you've done to establish that the rioters are unemployed and part of a benefits culture or whatever it is as well please Billie Piper. That would be very helpful.



Equally, please tell me the research you have done that shows they are employed and not soley reliant on benefits?

I am taking a wild stab in the dark based on my knowledge of the area and people in it from my work as a nurse in a North London hospital. I could be totally wrong and if I were to proved wrong I'd hold my hands up. But I don't think I am.

Also, at no point did I say people were poor because they were black so please do not put words in my mouth.


----------



## Balbi (Aug 8, 2011)

I think we'd all be very lucky if you took a wild stab in the dark Billie.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

Balbi said:


> I think we'd all be very lucky if you took a wild stab in the dark Billie.



I could take lessons from the countless scum I've had to treat in A&E who do exactly that.


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Aug 8, 2011)

I think they should send Judge Dredd in.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> Equally, please tell me the research you have done that shows they are employed and not soley reliant on benefits?
> 
> I am taking a wild stab in the dark based on my knowledge of the area and people in it from my work as a nurse in a North London hospital. I could be totally wrong and if I were to proved wrong I'd hold my hands up. But I don't think I am.
> 
> Also, at no point did I say people were poor because they were black so please do not put words in my mouth.



I'm not making that claim though Billie. Sorry, that's just not how it works.

So, in essence, you've made a sweeping generalisation based on social prejudice rather than facts and then constructed an elaborate theory of de-evolution based on that generalisation and that prejudice. You do no work - intellectual or empirical - to support this theory.

Yes you did. You just don't know that you let it all hang out so. If you're not prepared to openly state your case then why are you here?


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2011)

the government is noteable by it's total absence again - i hear the PM, DPM, Home Sec & Mayor of London are all out of the country on holiday.

fairly sure their presence here wouldn't provide anything of any worth, but a pattern is emerging with re. to their handling of crises imo. something about rudderless ships.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

roctrevezel said:


> There are now many towns in Britain with practically no shops left to loot even if someone had the desire to do so.



Have you posted here under another name before?

Tobyjug?


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not making that claim though Billie. Sorry, that's just not how it works.



So you are therefore taking the position of what exactly? You are suggesting my viewpoint is incorrect so what do you believe is the correct one?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> So you are therefore taking the position of what exactly? You are suggesting my viewpoint is incorrect so what do you believe is the correct one?


Not requited to show that your position is not backed up by any facts.

Why did you bring colour into it nurse?

(Has this clown been doing this for the last 500 pages i missed last night?)


----------



## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> Nothing genetic about it.



Strange that you used the word "subspecies" rather than "subculture", then.


----------



## peterkro (Aug 8, 2011)

Jesus,rejigging the software seems to have bought a number of Daily Mail type Urbanites to the fore,people who it seems to me didn't give a shit about peoples living conditions until some of them made their anger obvious,now it's all "what about the honest small business's " (pretty much left alone as far as I can see).


----------



## faux pas (Aug 8, 2011)

When they smash, loot and burn shops that I regularly use, that is really disruptive to my life. When they keep me up all night with my windows locked, that too is really disturbing.

I've read posts on here contextualising all this in a political sense - but how can we support actions that simply result in making us anxious and causes us practical problems.

Plus it never just works out that big chain stores are hit anyway. It's the whole local area. There's no magic line that stops some twat from redirecting his brick at your window, having being pushed off the high street by the police.


----------



## flickerx (Aug 8, 2011)

http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/10.Watts.htm

Interesting justification of looting from the sixties.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I've read posts on here contextualising all this in a political sense - but how can we support actions that simply result in making us anxious and causes us practical problems.


did you support the six counties being part of the uk?
and what about the various anti-terror measures? have you never had problems travelling due to a suspect device?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Does anyone have the Mets orignal statement about the shooting on thursday? If it was on their site it's now long gone.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

kmarxs&sparks said:


> First of all I should make it clear I think the EDL/BNP/Assorted other bigoted cretins are a bunch of evil cunts.
> My internet is somewhere between a bit shit and totally crap so I only have half the story about these riots but I did a quick google to see what images I could get hold of. (Some of the photos were absolute stunners)
> I did notice a hell of a lot of black and Asian faces in the middle of things along with a few white faces but not all that many compared with other races.
> That means either the photographers were a tad biased or the majority were black/asian.
> ...


and what did you make of the composition of the police?


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Can i see the research that you've done to establish that the rioters are unemployed and part of a benefits culture or whatever it is as well please Billie Piper. That would be very helpful.


no one rioted before the welfare state, butchers, u know that  it just didn't happen


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> no one rioted before the welfare state, butchers, u know that  it just didn't happen


http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...VfyLOf&sig=AHIEtbQPy0Fd1m6GuhZu2pb6Bgo1oKUiEA


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> no one rioted before the welfare state, butchers, u know that  it just didn't happen


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> no one rioted before the welfare state, butchers, u know that  it just didn't happen


That's because that was a progressive stage in our collective social evolution. Clearly. Our genetic strength came from people being too physically weak to riot.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Anyway, some of my people up north now think London is burning....we need to not have a news blackout on stuff like this, as it just leaves whatever shite people say in twitter as the only source, and not everyone is as adept at knowing the difference between a truth, a likely truth, and outright inflammatory shit that was never backed up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Anyway, some of my people up north now think London is burning....we need to not have a news blackout on stuff like this, as it just leaves whatever shite people say in twitter as the only source, and not everyone is as adept at knowing the difference between a truth, a likely truth, and outright inflammatory shit that was never backed up.


yes they are. if it's on twitter it's odds on that it's outright inflammatory shit that was cooked up.


----------



## kmarxs&sparks (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> It means fuck all.



Sadly it may.

I've just wandered onto "Stormfront" and I right. The nasty bastards are giving it some.
I then googled "london riots nigger"
http://www.google.co.id/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=london+riots+nigger

It's not going the hurt the BNP/EDL at all.

As I said, sad day.

However. The daily fail seems to be pretty straight on reporting the thing and have some really classy photos.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...gan-shooting-sparked-police-beating-girl.html

It's a plus if the mainstream media isn't slanting it.
As I said, my connection is really poor so I only have half the story. That in mind I open to enlightenment as to how it's being seen over there.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure#Enclosure_riots


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Bollocks. Its just the subspecies out to grab more shit, while causing maximum destruction all round. Which is just what they do.
> 
> Giles..



You stupid cunt.


----------



## kmarxs&sparks (Aug 8, 2011)

Added. I googled that nasty word because I'm aware of what the idiot racist twats will be writing. Nothing more.


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2011)

they left the apple macs...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

kmarxs&sparks said:


> It's not going the hurt the BNP/EDL at all.


i heard a fat old white bloke telling racist jokes about the riots in a pub last night, and as usual i only thought of a witty rejoinder after leaving the pub

q: what's the best thing about fat old white men telling racist jokes?
a: they'll be dead soon

but it matters not a jot about the bnp because they're fucked and going down. the edl are, ostensibly, not racist and given that the rioters were not muslim youth - in significant measure - i don't think they'll use this as a body although i have no doubt their members and supporters will put their own slant on it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure#Enclosure_riots


nika riots 532


----------



## CNT36 (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> It means fuck all.


I doubt it. It has fuck all to do with shit the EDL and BNP and assorted wankers say though. If it turns out a majority of rioters are Black or Asian might that not tell us about some of the inequalities of wealth in society? Could it not tell up something about who is hit the hardest by cuts? And about the hurt and anger that result?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Does anyone have the Mets orignal statement about the shooting on thursday? If it was on their site it's now long gone.



What's the score with making such a statement public? I haven't seen one on the MET site.
Are they legally bound to publish it, & is there a time frame?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

CNT36 said:


> I doubt it. It has fuck all to do with shit the EDL and BNP and assorted wankers say though. If it turns out a majority of rioters are Black or Asian might that not tell us about some of the inequalities of wealth in society? Could it not tell up something about who is hit the hardest by cuts? And about the hurt and anger that result?


Aye, the working class.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> yes they are. if it's on twitter it's odds on that it's outright inflammatory shit that was cooked up.


You'd have thought so, but some have gone as far to say things like 'London is in flames', and one even 'there won't be another Jamaican Independence celebration after this' 

I do despair of some people, but if people I know that aren't that well informed think these things, you can bet your life that the rot has set in much deeper in the ever growing rw camp.

For instance this happened yesterday.... http://www.sikhsangat.org/2011/08/s...5-kids-in-chigwell-attacked-by-racist-idiots/

<insert obligatory rant about the Tories>


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

CNT36 said:


> I doubt it. It has fuck all to do with shit the EDL and BNP and assorted wankers say though. If it turns out a majority of rioters are Black or Asian might that not tell us about some of the inequalities of wealth in society? Could it not tell up something about who is hit the hardest by cuts? And about the hurt and anger that result?


might it not tell us something about the population of tottenham? when in 1981 there was a riot in harrogate i would have expected it to be predominantly white. wouldn't you?


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:sXlThtDgCKMJ:www.epsomandewellhistoryexplorer.org.uk/Sgt_Green_Riot_1.pdf epsom police siege\&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjLyVtrDFl2rKi6xuxfVc2X3z6vDvwo1gxNe8CFfRVzhl4PGQj0NSGPK2ITBixeTm-OXeeW8uqAsX6VMOAXBTSiPsbv-Ul4YyAIrQbQsbjoOKUzwDDUNwho6WgrHGnE2HVfyLOf&sig=AHIEtbQPy0Fd1m6GuhZu2pb6Bgo1oKUiEA


You really are clueless.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

killer b said:


> they left the apple macs...


I was thinking that too....should have got down there!


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> What's the score with making such a statement public? I haven't seen one on the MET site.
> Are they legally bound to publish it, & is there a time frame?


Not sure of the legal requirements Mr Bishie - i do know they pay a lot of money for this PR shit though. 45 people employed in Met's PR wing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> You really are clueless.


what, 1919 was AFTER the creation of the welfare state?


----------



## Utopia (Aug 8, 2011)

* Live footage *

Kids going nuts in Bedfordshire right now, shocking stuff - *http://tinyurl.com/3pcxyrh*


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Utopia said:


> * Live footage *
> 
> Kids going nuts in Bedfordshire right now, shocking stuff - *http://tinyurl.com/3pcxyrh*


oh dear


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> wether its incompetence or canny 'don't ask me sarge durr' deliberate ineptitude they will have secured a halt to the cuts in police funding imo



There's also that old standby 'police morale' too, a factor that could have wide-ranging impacts in this context, from the investigations into corrupt dealings with the gutter press to Simon Harwood's trial for killing Ian Tomlinson.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> what, 1919 was AFTER the creation of the welfare state?


It's called sarcasm, you oaf.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> There's also that old standby 'police morale' too, a factor that could have wide-ranging impacts in this context, from the investigations into corrupt dealings with the gutter press to Simon Harwood's trial for killing Ian Tomlinson.


more important than those i'd say are the cuts the government's making to the police. unlike 1981 (or 1985 or 1990) the police aren't getting the rewards they think they're due from the government.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

kmarxs&sparks said:


> I've just wandered onto "Stormfront" ......



As you do .....



> .... and I right. The nasty bastards are giving it some.
> I then googled "london riots nigger" ....



As you do .....

What the fucking fuck did you expect would get returned with that search????

Think I'll keep an eye on you.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> So you are therefore taking the position of what exactly? You are suggesting my viewpoint is incorrect so what do you believe is the correct one?


Are there any jobs in the area for the unemployed to take?


----------



## faux pas (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> did you support the six counties being part of the uk?
> and what about the various anti-terror measures? have you never had problems travelling due to a suspect device?



They were showing aggression to regular people last night. People just passing by.

Hard to support that, politically, isn't it? Especially when your loved ones all work and live in the effected areas.


----------



## CNT36 (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i heard a fat old white bloke telling racist jokes about the riots in a pub last night, and as usual i only thought of a witty rejoinder after leaving the pub
> 
> q: what's the best thing about fat old white men telling racist jokes?
> a: they'll be dead soon
> ...


I checked the EDL Facebook at about 2am Sunday and it was full of what you would expect Although i did notice someone who was usually an utter cunt sticking up for the rioters and criticising the police shooting. I think there were a couple of others too. It seemed to be going the same way as the student protests. Blaming the left and ten years of labour. Amongst the usual racist shit.


----------



## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

kmarxs&sparks said:


> However. The daily fail seems to be pretty straight on reporting the thing and have some really classy photos.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...gan-shooting-sparked-police-beating-girl.html



They do seem to think it was anarchists wot did it in Enfield

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...merges-office-flew-holiday-hours-carnage.html




			
				Daily Fail said:
			
		

> In Enfield, North London, a mob of 200 anarchists smashed their way into shops and lobbed concrete slabs at police cars following Saturday’s riot in nearby Tottenham.



but in Brixton they were just plain old looters, apparently.

The Mail obviously thinks North London has a different class of rioter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

faux pas said:


> They were showing aggression to regular people last night. People just passing by.
> 
> Hard to support that, politically, isn't it? Especially when your loved ones all work and live in the effected areas.


there's a bit of a non sequitur there. can you spot it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

CNT36 said:


> I checked the EDL Facebook at about 2am Sunday and it was full of what you would expect Although i did notice someone who was usually an utter cunt sticking up for the rioters and criticising the police shooting. I think there were a couple of others too. It seemed to be going the same way as the student protests. Blaming the left and ten years of labour. Amongst the usual racist shit.


much as i'd expect. i would be a bit surprised though if the edl itself put something out which reflected the views of its supporters as it would blow wider the gap between their claimed politics and their real politics.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> there's a bit of a non sequitur there. can you spot it?


I can spot that you're an arrogant twat.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

Loads of racist comments in the Torygraph. One idiot actually said "We want Enoch Powell for PM" without realising that Powell has been dead for around 20 years.


----------



## CNT36 (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> might it not tell us something about the population of tottenham?


That was meant to be in their somewhere.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I can spot that you're an arrogant twat.


better an arrogant twat than someone like you.


----------



## peterkro (Aug 8, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I was thinking that too....should have got down there!


I'm guessing they took all the laptops and left the iMacs,bit hard to conceal a iMac under your jacket as you wend your way home.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Loads of racist comments in the Torygraph. One idiot actually said "We want Enoch Powell for PM" without realising that Powell has been dead for around 20 years.


that's one of his best characteristics and it's swung me behind this powellite campaign. but i would go further: bring back palmerston. or even pitt. dead politicians can hardly be worse than the wankers we have now.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Not sure of the legal requirements Mr Bishie - i do know they pay a lot of money for this PR shit though. 45 people employed in Met's PR wing.



Perhaps they were all too busy whispering cynical self-serving lies to their pals in the gutter press, as they do whenever the Met kills a citizen ...

Perhaps they think that *is* their job. They certainly seem to act on that basis.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> better an arrogant twat than someone like you.



What someone for whom unbridled violence on their and their family's doorstep is somewhat disconcerting.

We can only hope it happens to to you. God lets hope! Sooner the better.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

faux pas said:


> What someone for whom unbridled violence on their and their family's doorstep is somewhat disconcerting.
> 
> We can only hope it happens to to you. God lets hope! Sooner the better.


it already has. i got over it. will you?


----------



## kmarxs&sparks (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i heard a fat old white bloke telling racist jokes about the riots in a pub last night, and as usual i only thought of a witty rejoinder after leaving the pub



Was it a smack in the mouth? Sounds like a fair response to a fat old racist fucker.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

cybertect said:


> They do seem to think it was anarchists wot did it in Enfield
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...merges-office-flew-holiday-hours-carnage.html
> 
> ...



Is 'anarchist' Daily Mail speak for 'rioter who is not black'?


----------



## sunnysidedown (Aug 8, 2011)

It was almost 20 years ago to the day that this happened: 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadow_Well_Riots

Not many blacks involved in that one, apart from maybe mad Davey Black of Percy Main.


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

peterkro said:


> I'm guessing they took all the laptops and left the iMacs



They took the PC laptops and not the Apple stuff? Shows how fucking thick they are then.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 8, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Is 'anarchist' Daily Mail speak for 'rioter who is not black'?


Yep, I reckon so.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> it already has. i got over it. will you?


What get over something that probably is going to continue tonight? (Spot the non-sequitur?)

I will eventually, of course. But again, my point only is: If you're an innocent victim, it's hardly going to bring about political sentiment, is it? Being aggressive to passer-bys is hardly collateral damage.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Apparently Boris johnson doing his job as Mayor and leaving his holiday would "kind of reward" criminality. So he's not.


----------



## articul8 (Aug 8, 2011)

Clegg has just been on saying there is no excuse for theft, vandalism and destruction.  Like the riots could match his coalition for that.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Is 'anarchist' Daily Mail speak for 'rioter who is not black'?



 I said exactly this to Mrs Spy last night.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

Lots of projecting going on here, imo, i'm quite sure 10 year olds to 14 year olds have no political or otherwise consciousness of the cutting of bankers getting bigger bonuses, of Thatcher and neo-liberalism, etc, it was opportunism, look at what they looted: games, tv's, clothes, very few political locations, job centres, etc were attacked, it wasn't Brixton or Toxteth, it was the above kids but also organised criminal and volent gangs out to get what they could. There is plenty for young people to be angry about it in London and indeed the Uk, but these people weren't part of that.

the initial protest outside the Police station was a different case..


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> Lots of projecting going on here, imo, i'm quite sure 10 year olds to 14 year olds have no political or otherwise consciousness of the cutting of bankers getting bigger bonuses, of Thatcher and neo-liberalism, etc, it was opportunism, look at what they looted: games, tv's, clothes, very few political locations, job centres, etc were attacked, it wasn't Brixton or Toxteth, it the above kids but also organised criminal gangs and out to get what they could. There is plenty for young people to be angry about it in London and indeed the Uk, but these people weren't part of that.
> 
> the initial protest outside the Police station was a different case..


if that's really, truly the case then why didn't the people in tottenham loot last week or last month? i suppose it was simply a coincidence that there was the demonstration the same day.


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

Is there any truth in the frankly hilarious story that the looters broke into McDonalds and started cooking their own junk food?


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

and where were the police, if its a political demo, you can't move for them...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> and where were the police, if its a political demo, you can't move for them...


yeh cos there were a fuck load of cops at the student protest last september


----------



## articul8 (Aug 8, 2011)

Politics can work at different levels - it's only natural that for a generation that has been told that happiness lies on acquisition of more and more consumer goods - whilst at the same time deprived of the resources to live out this capitalist utopia - to respond by taking what's denied to them.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Apparently Boris johnson doing his job as Mayor and leaving his holiday would "kind of reward" criminality. So he's not.



Should he return, he'd probably say something deeply stupid which so reeked of elitist arrogance as to provoke a small but statistically significant number of hiterto peaceful Londoners into violent insurrection.


----------



## Giles (Aug 8, 2011)

articul8 said:


> Politics can work at different levels - it's only natural that for a generation that has been told that happiness lies on acquisition of more and more consumer goods - whilst at the same time deprived of the resources to live out this capitalist utopia - to respond by taking what's denied to them.



Because of course you can't expect people to think beyond their desire for flashy trainers, gold jewellry and mobile phones, can you? Not their fault, it's the adverts that made them do it!

Giles..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> So if I was in the pub with you and a bloke came along and told us he had some invisible, intangible gold for sale and you took your wallet out to buy some, prompting me to call you a fucking idiot, would that be me throwing "abuse at people I don't agree with" too? Only that's on pretty much the same level as what you did.
> 
> I mean, this is essentially the story you fell for: "there was an armed, dangerous gangster in a taxi - he tried to shoot a brave, armed copper but fortunately the bullet lodged in his radio without him noticing, despite the *fucking massive bruise* he would inevitably have received as a consequence, which saved his life. So they were _forced_ to *shoot him in the face, twice, while he was on the ground*".
> 
> You've basically claimed a man who has been executed without trial deserved it, despite the fact he didn't actually fire a single bullet. Where I come from that's considered a bit of a cunt's trick. That's not me abusing you because we disagree - that's me calling you a cunt because you're a cunt.



You know what worries me, Norm? That whole "shot twice *in the face* _schtick_. S.O.P. is for the suspect to be restrained face-down, so a double-tap to the face is only going to be possible if the guy had fallen to the floor, or was being restrained incorrectly.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> Lots of projecting going on here, imo, i'm quite sure 10 year olds to 14 year olds have no political or otherwise consciousness of the cutting of bankers getting bigger bonuses, of Thatcher and neo-liberalism, etc, it was opportunism, look at what they looted: games, tv's, clothes, very few political locations, job centres, etc were attacked, it wasn't Brixton or Toxteth, it was the above kids but also organised criminal and volent gangs out to get what they could. There is plenty for young people to be angry about it in London and indeed the Uk, but these people weren't part of that.
> 
> the initial protest outside the Police station was a different case..


How is opportunist behaviour not political? Not revealing? There's a pointlessness to drawing a line one side of which can be called political and one side non-political. All this is _social_. How is the anger expressed at how the police behave not social? It's pretty easy to reduce this down to good or bad (do you support people being made homless? Do you support cops killing people and lying?)- but that's to totally ignore the underlying dynamics here. It's pointless acting as a riot  quality control officer - it's not pointless to try and see what's going on beneath the surface.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

apparently charity shops were looted, ffs...


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Because of course you can't expect people to think beyond their desire for flashy trainers, gold jewellry and mobile phones, can you? Not their fault, it's the adverts that made them do it!
> 
> Giles..



Boris ... it's you!


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> apparently charity shops were looted, ffs...



Don't say apparently, say where/when. How can you not see the politics of that?


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

of course, some of the looters had other motivations, such as an awareness of unfairness and inequality,but i would argue the majority of looters were opportunists..


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> apparently charity shops were looted, ffs...



Is this true or are you engaging in your usual sanctimoniousness?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Should he return, he'd probably say something deeply stupid which so reeked of elitist arrogance as to provoke a small but statistically significant number of hiterto peaceful Londoners into violent insurrection.


 
This isn't "insurrection".

That would suggest a purposeful uprising against government or authority. This is just a bunch of cunts nicking shit.


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> apparently charity shops were looted, ffs...



The looting is one thing - the uninsured working class people made homeless and losing what little they had left by the "radical" actions of a few cunts is worse.

Big question is: did this Duggan guy really fire at the cops before he was shot?


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Because of course you can't expect people to think beyond their desire for flashy trainers, gold jewellry and mobile phones, can you? Not their fault, it's the adverts that made them do it!
> 
> Giles..



The world looks much simpler in black and white. Eh, Giles?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> This isn't "insurrection".
> 
> That would suggest a purposeful uprising against government or authority. This is just a bunch of cunts nicking shit.



All the more reason for Boris to stay away, or come home, depending on what you want to achieve


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> of course, some of the looters had other motivations, such as an awareness of unfairness and inequality,but i would argue the majority of looters were opportunists..


yeh the fucking opportunity presents itself, you take it. doesn't mean people are unaware of things.


----------



## articul8 (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> That would suggest a purposeful uprising against government or authority. This is just a bunch of cunts nicking shit.



The GOVERNMENT are a bunch of cunts nicking shit!


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'I know some of the kids and men who were out looting last night. Believe it or not they're part of an alternative culture! They're the unemployable underclass which society has created. I'm not an apologist for them; they're just gangsters and thieves but we need to understand why they're doing this and how they're doing this in order to stop it. Basically they grew up in rough areas where the education they get is poor. The only people they see succeeding in their areas are the drug dealers and thieves, so that's what the young men aspire to. Their values are different from those of most of society; they believe they have the right to take what they want, be it a woman or a car or a 'phone. They see affluence and success and they aspire to it.'

posted on CIF


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

rorymac said:


> Go fuck yourself you conservative dork !
> Just fuck off !!



How persuasive. Never voted tory in my life.

This is about heavy looting, not revolution. I have immense sympathy for the Mark Duggan's family but all this has nothing to do with solidarity with said family.


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

I would strongly dispute that a person looting is a thief.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> How persuasive. Never voted tory in my life.
> 
> This is about heavy looting, not revolution. I have immense sympathy for the Mark Duggan's family but all this has nothing to do with solidarity with said family.


don't give a fuck who you've voted for, you're still a conservative


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'I would strongly dispute that a person looting is a thief. '

Right, i will send some of the thugs round to your gaff then...


----------



## Flanflinger (Aug 8, 2011)

Shame they can't shoot a few of the thieving scumbags.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'll bet you £10 to the server fund that 1) the OB weren't fired on and 2) he was at the very least no direct threat to the lives of any police when he was shot. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is on this. And I'm fucking positive that the version I believe is a damn site more plausible than the magic radio stopping a bullet killing a copper without him even feeling it - despite the radio shaped bruise and probable broken bones.



Not sure about broken bones. Transmitting the impact of a single bullet over the surface area of a police radio pack would give you a stonker of a bruise, but unless you had osteoporosis, is shouldn't break any bone thicker that your little finger.


----------



## articul8 (Aug 8, 2011)

This thread is showing how many reactionary scumbags haunt these boards


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> don't give a fuck who you've voted for, you're still a conservative



Gosh, how convincing. Urban know it all knows fuck all, as per usual.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'I know some of the kids and men who were out looting last night. Believe it or not they're part of an alternative culture! They're the unemployable underclass which society has created. I'm not an apologist for them; they're just gangsters and thieves but we need to understand why they're doing this and how they're doing this in order to stop it. Basically they grew up in rough areas where the education they get is poor. The only people they see succeeding in their areas are the drug dealers and thieves, so that's what the young men aspire to. Their values are different from those of most of society; they believe they have the right to take what they want, be it a woman or a car or a 'phone. They see affluence and success and they aspire to it.'
> 
> posted on CIF



Any serious pro-working class movement (just using that term as it's now trad) will, of course, have to come up with some answers to the anti-social behaviour and gangsterism that goes on in our communities - and that we've seen over the last two nights, and what drives it. As an absolute priority in fact. To do that we have to understand what it is and what produces it. That's horrible hard work, and distasteful as it may be, that means not writing whole loads of people off.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

Flanflinger said:


> Shame they can't shoot a few of the thieving scumbags.



Who the fuck are you? Judge Dredd?


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

articul8 said:


> This thread is showing how many reactionary scumbags haunt these boards



Not to mention all the posturing keyboard warriors


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'I would strongly dispute that a person looting is a thief. '
> 
> Right, i will send some of the thugs round to your gaff then...



I don't think you can make as black and white as saying looters are thieves, or criminals or whatever. That implies that they would act that way outside exceptional circumstances which I don't think the vast majority would.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> And that makes it all OK does it? Because they can't afford by legitimate means the latest Panasonic 52" widescreen 3D TV, or the latest Nike trainers it's OK to go out and nick them and then burn down the store!



Hmmm, you seem to be rather too well-informed about what's been stolen, Mr. Peptide.

Is there something you'd like to tell us?


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

Flanflinger said:


> Shame they can't shoot a few of the thieving scumbags.



Yeah, that'll really help, dickhead


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Gosh, how convincing. Urban know it all knows fuck all, as per usual.


no, you're a conservative with a small c not a Conservative, as in C & U Party


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'This thread is showing how many reactionary scumbags haunt these boards'

What, because they don't support looters who burn working class people out of their homes, now I wonder if they say the same when it happens in N.I


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

articul8 said:


> The GOVERNMENT are a bunch of cunts nicking shit!





Primitive accumulation innit ...

*http://tinyurl.com/3gqk9gr*


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Flanflinger said:


> Shame they can't shoot a few of the thieving scumbags.









Bean bag rounds, ftw.


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2011)

Flanflinger said:


> Shame they can't shoot a few of the thieving scumbags.



Good point, it would hasten the violent overthrow of the current system. I assume that's what you had in mind.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

oh, and Tottenham certainly won't get the new stadium now...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'This thread is showing how many reactionary scumbags haunt these boards'
> 
> What, because they don't support looters who burn working class people out of their homes, now I wonder if they say the same when it happens in N.I


it's interesting that the focus has turned towards looters and away from the people who were fighting the police. oh - and i'd like to see evidence, if you please, of looters setting people's homes on fire.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> oh, and Tottenham certainly won't get the new stadium now...



Who cares? They're a shite team anyway.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no, you're a conservative with a small c not a Conservative, as in C & U Party



This is your great contribution to the revolution is it, shrieking and name calling because some people aren't wanking over the idea of wanton destruction?


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Bollocks. Its just the subspecies out to grab more shit, while causing maximum destruction all round. Which is just what they do.
> 
> Giles..



Can you be more specific please as this could describe the politicians, city traders or rioters thus proving my point.


----------



## articul8 (Aug 8, 2011)

It's not a case of "supporting looters" - it's a case of not joining the Daily Mail moral majority saying "look at these low-life thieving scum" when explosions of anger at social conditions kick off.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> I hear what you are saying, and if I had grown up on some sink estate the product of dysfunctional parents, had not achieved anything educationally and all that I aspired to was hanging round on street corners, mugging teenagers for their mobiles and wishing I could be a drug lord, then yes I may well think that riot, looting and arson was the answer.



Gosh, you've not made a single sweeping assumption based on dick-all except your own social prejudices there, have you?



> But we all know it's not don't we?



Do we, or are you projecting your own prejudices onto others, assuming that they would agree with you?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not sure about broken bones. Transmitting the impact of a single bullet over the surface area of a police radio pack would give you a stonker of a bruise, but unless you had osteoporosis, is shouldn't break any bone thicker that your little finger.



Either way it's hard to believe he wouldn't have noticed it 'til he got back to the nick


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> This is your great contribution to the revolution is it, shrieking and name calling because some people aren't wanking over the idea of wanton destruction?


calling you a thick fuck is name calling. pointing out that you're a conservative is, in my view, simply stating the bleeding obvious.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Who the fuck are you? Judge Dredd?



d_b?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> ... oh - and i'd like to see evidence, if you please, of looters setting people's homes on fire.



Why?

Unless the police torched the homes your point will be moot.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Bollocks. Its just the subspecies out to grab more shit, while causing maximum destruction all round. Which is just what they do.
> 
> Giles..


Am I right in thinking that the concept of 'socio-economic context' is a tad too tricky for your poor lil reactionary brain to handle?


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> Oh God, because I dared to mention that most of the looters I saw on Saturday were black? Yup, I'm a massive fucking racist.



If they were anarchists and/or UK Uncut protestors would you feel it necessary to point out their racial backgrounds? If not, why not?


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> calling you a thick fuck is name calling. pointing out that you're a conservative is, in my view, simply stating the bleeding obvious.



So, is everyone who is against violence and wanton destruction a tory, then? Silly boy.

Would love you to say that to the people across London sifting through the debris of their communities today.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Why?
> 
> Unless the police torched the homes your point will be moot.


because as i pointed out earlier, burning things is not conducive to the pasttime of looting.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> Can you be more specific please as this could describe the politicians, city traders or rioters thus proving my point.



Equal opportunity outrage would also require some comparison of, for example, who made more people homeless ...


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Not to mention all the posturing keyboard warriors



And tedious moralising wankers.



treelover said:


> 'This thread is showing how many reactionary scumbags haunt these boards'
> 
> What, because they don't support looters who burn working class people out of their homes, now I wonder if they say the same when it happens in N.I


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Nope, I just didn't rush to conclusions as quickly as others.
> 
> I take it you're buying this "execution on the pavement" gig then?



Admit it, Spy.

You're a tool of reaction.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> So, is everyone who is against violence and wanton destruction a tory, then? Silly boy.
> 
> Would love you to say that to the people across London sifting through the debris of their communities today.


you're thick as fucking pigshit, you really are. i have already said that i don't mean conservative with a big c as in conservative and unionist party; i mean you're a conservative with a small c.

you even quoted the fucking post you shitferbrains cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Admit it, Spy.
> 
> You're a tool of reaction.


he's a tool anyway


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

god i am so glad i'm not involved in left politics anymore, i wonder how people like Norman managed to conceal their views in real life, then again, their parties are miniscule


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

*THE RIOT ‘EXPERTS’ ARE AMONGST US!*

http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/the-riot-experts-are-amongst-us/


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you're thick as fucking pigshit, you really are. i have already said that i don't mean conservative with a big c as in conservative and unionist party; i mean you're a conservative with a small c.
> 
> you even quoted the fucking post you shitferbrains cunt.



Yes, yes, the whole world's against you & you're misunderstood. If only more people thought like you did, etc.

Such bitterness. Shouldn't you be out fighting the good fight?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> because as i pointed out earlier, burning things is not conducive to the pasttime of looting.



Well burning out peoples homes isn't conducive to the pastime of "kicking off with the police" either.


----------



## eoin_k (Aug 8, 2011)

There is something interesting about the retailers that have been targeted and how they have been hit.

There is a tension between, on the one hand, the desire to expropriate the commodities that are sold to you from day to day (for example JD Sport, H&M, KFC and HMV )with the desire to damage the shop more than is strictly necessary in order to loot it.

Obviously there is a danger of reading too much into this, as other business were effected like the old hairdressers up in Tottenham and to some extent these brands represent what is available on the relevant high streets. Intentionally or otherwise, trashing Nando's and KFC has a symbolic quality, especially when another target would presumably have been more profitable.

It also seems interesting how disorder moved outwards from the edge of the inner city to the suburbs more readily than towards the centre of the inner city. Again, there is a danger of reading too much into this. Specifically, Mark Duggan's killing happened to trigger events in Haringey in a particular way that make it unwise to make sweeping generalisations. However, we may be going through a period of transformation in our cities where they gentrification of the centre will be reinforced by the crisis (cf. Tory policy statements on housing benefit in central London). I would guess that in the past recessions have been more associated with a middle class retreat to the suburbs or further afield in London. There is clearly an attempt to make London more like Paris, where the affluent centre is sheltered from rage of the banlieue ('suburb'). I think this could be a seen as a moment of conflict that may determine if this process proceeds unhindered.

It is hard, if not impossible, to explain why trouble didn't spread to Hackney. Factors may include the Hackney One Festival being cancelled. The police have made a recent show of strength with mass arrests on the Penbury estate and were making their presence felt last night. It could just be 'happenstance'. But the successful gentrification of Haggerston, Stoke Newington, Lower Clapton etc. also seems to be a factor.

Edit to add that Imention Hackney specifically as: (a) I know Hackney, (b) it is an example of heading in rather than out of town.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

btw, again I would like to ask where were the police?, especially in Brixton...


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> <snip> There is clearly an attempt to make London more like Paris, where the affluent centre is sheltered from rage of the banlieue ('suburb'). I think this could be a seen as a moment of conflict that may determine if this process proceeds unhindered.<snip>


 That's an interesting observation ...


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 8, 2011)

Just got off the phone to my neighbour (we usually live on our narrowboat in a small marina on Tottenham Marsh), she says last night a huge gang of masked teenagers arrived with baseball bats and smashed up the adjacent canoe centre.  The canoe centre is run by an ex copper who works with young offenders.  We've known him for years through our boating/volunteering activities. There 's nothing to nick there, they're just going round looking for stuff to smash. She said it was terrifying.
We do often get trouble from these kids in the school holidays. They show up en masse in a big gang.  This kind of thing has gone on in Tottenham at a low level for years but was largely ignored.  It's getting harder to ignore it as it gets worse.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

The Torygraph's Damian Thompson takes the opportunity to tie in UKUncut with the riots



> I suppose I’ll be accused of exploiting the Tottenham riots and London-wide looting for political ends, but _what_ a disaster they were for UK Uncut and other “peaceful” street protests against the “cuts”. The Left-wing Twitterati were quick to realise this and spent Saturday and Sunday nights anxiously deploring the wrong sort of direct action. Sunny Hundal was particularly vociferous, though he couldn’t resist the following tweet:
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...18/the-looting-is-a-pr-disaster-for-uk-uncut/



Frankly, who gives a fuck what Sunny Hundal thinks or says?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> Also, at no point did I say people were poor because they were black so please do not put words in my mouth.


so please explain what you meant by the phrase 'these are simple people', ONE sentence after citing 'black and asian', in a previous post


----------



## newme (Aug 8, 2011)

Well its started off some interesting sounding facebook groups anyway

"I'M SO 'ARD IMMA GO to the RIOT in Tottenham AND. steal some carpet."


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

cybertect said:


> The West Londoner blog is reporting that Morrisons in Chingford is on fire.
> No verification, but they seem to have been fairly detailed in their coverage of events in Brixton.



To be fair, that's probably their former MP filing a complaint about a stale loaf of bread or summat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Well burning out peoples homes isn't conducive to the pastime of "kicking off with the police" either.


you want it to be looters who burnt those buildings. fair enough. but fucking produce a shred of evidence to back up your assertion - its absence makes you look a bit daft.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'There is clearly an attempt to make London more like Paris, where the affluent centre is sheltered from rage of the banlieue ('suburb'). I think this could be a seen as a moment of conflict that may determine if this process proceeds unhindered.'

Exactly, the Tories will use these riots as an excuse to proceed with social cleansing.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> god i am so glad i'm not involved in left politics anymore, i wonder how people like Norman managed to conceal their views in real life, then again, their parties are miniscule



I'm glad you're not involved in "left politics" anymore too, your constant whining would make it impossible to get anything done. And miniscule or otherwise, these groups are still far more effective than a broken record droning on about "the left".


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> We do often get trouble from these kids in the school holidays. They show up en masse in a big gang. This kind of thing has gone on in Tottenham at a low level for years but was largely ignored. It's getting harder to ignore it as it gets worse.









Bean bag rounds, ftw.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Yes, yes, the whole world's against you & you're misunderstood. If only more people thought like you did, etc.
> 
> Such bitterness. Shouldn't you be out fighting the good fight?


that doesn't really answer the point i made in my post, namely that you are a thick fuck with excrement for brains.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> *THE RIOT ‘EXPERTS’ ARE AMONGST US!*
> 
> http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/the-riot-experts-are-amongst-us/






			
				ian bone said:
			
		

> And ‘youth clubs’ so they don’t have to sit outside on walls all day….and PING PONG WITH THE FUCKING VICAR!


I swear on my life, i said to geri ysterday before the cricket that when i was a kid i didn't want a youth club to play ping pong with a Christan youth worker. Are you tapping me bone?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm glad you're not involved in "left politics" anymore too, your constant whining would make it impossible to get anything done.



Cos they're "getting things done" now!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> wether its incompetence or canny 'don't ask me sarge durr' deliberate ineptitude they will have secured a halt to the cuts in police funding imo



Yep. The "willful ignorance" tactic has worked for the OB before, when the govt wanted to cut their funding.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

well, who else was it, only on urban will you get people defending violent looters*..

*here i mean the organised criminal gangs.

People on here may take certain lessons and pleasures from the looting, but the people in power, the R/W media and many of the population will take other (unpalatable to urbanites) extrapolations from them and will act accordingly, expect new measures on crime, welfare, immigration, etc...


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Cos they're "getting things done" now!



A damn site more than we would with that clown on board.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 8, 2011)

Are we defending them? Or simply understanding why they end up like this?  I had the misfortune to know one of these kids well.  So violent he beat up the only person who ever showed him any kindness with a baseball bat.  He was dangerous and unpredictable. But what a shit upbringing he had if you could call it that. And there are dozens and dozens of 'couldn't give a fuck' kids like this in Tottenham.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 8, 2011)

A woman on 5Live last night said "Bring back the birch"


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> that doesn't really answer the point i made in my post, namely that you are a thick fuck with excrement for brains.



You made no point except a ridiculous accusation that I'm in league with tories and unionists. Get a grip, or better still, think before you post.

I've never seen anything resembling a contribution or solution or an opinion from you on the politics board, rather an endless stream of angst and invective, quite often targetted at posters who don't meet your "standards".

Now, go stalk someone who gives a shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yep. The "willful ignorance" tactic has worked for the OB before, when the govt wanted to cut their funding.


i'm not so sure. i think they've gone too far and put too much on the line for that to be an option now, although i think it may be in the future. the police cuts have already greatly harmed police morale, but i don't think that a reversing of the cuts would solve this. the government would look weak to the police, who may try to secure an increase in funding above what was there before the cuts started. however, the leadership of the met's in disarray, and the leadership of acpo may well be too if orde applies for the commissioner post. but if the government reverses the police cuts i think that may have the effect of encouraging more militancy elsewhere as people seek to get their cuts reversed too.


----------



## eoin_k (Aug 8, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> That's an interesting observation ...



Thanks - the rest of it needed working on, but the postie just woke up the baby and i wanted to get something down.

Is it me or is this thread moving too quickly to have a decent discussion?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> You made no point except a ridiculous accusation that I'm in league with tories and unionists. Get a grip, or better still, think before you post.
> 
> I've never seen anything resembling a contribution or solution or an opinion from you on the politics board, rather an endless stream of angst and invective, quite often targetted at posters who don't meet your "standards".
> 
> Now, go stalk someone who gives a shit.


as you are clearly simple i will use short words. i never said that you are in league with tories. all posts are contributions, even yours. get off to a remedial reading class: you need it.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Bean bag rounds, ftw.



The cops came round sharpish according to our friend.  But I wonder how the rest of the school holidays are gonna play out if it's like this already, we usually don't get the steaming gangs until the end of the month.  *sigh*


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Stoat Boy said:


> All I see is people wanting an excuse to go and nick a load of stuff that they probably already own in the first place.



It's all you see because it's all you're interested in seeing, weasel.



> If anything the targets of these riots strike me as proof that the notion of materialism as a defining factor in how people view themselves is the only thing being expressed in this latest outbreak of violence.



Wow, there's nothing like a bit of _post facto_ analysis for chucking something new in the mix, is there? 



> In fact the whole thing seems to have a rather dreary feel to it all with no real 'anger' as such being expressed but just almost an outburst of kids thinking that they are able to actually live the video games they enjoy playing just for a couple of hours.



Of course it'll seem like that if *you* have already made up your mind that "that's how things are", you pusillanimous pissant.



> The ones I feel sorry for are those poor people burned out of their homes on Saturday night. People have been left with just the clothes (or in one case I heard of a dressing gown) they stood up in. And for what ? A branch of Carpet Right ? Who did they offend ? Ok their carpet fitters can be stroppy buggers and so on but is that really 'popular vengence' ?



Be honest, weasel. The only person you ever feel sorry for is your poor hard-done-by self. Your expressions of pity convince no-one. We're mostly too well-acquainted with how your thought processes operate.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> We are dealing with animals. There is no logic.



Humans *are* animals. Chuds like you forget that.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> Thanks - the rest of it needed working on, but the postie just woke up the baby and i wanted to get something down.
> 
> Is it me or is this thread moving too quickly to have a decent discussion?


Paris centre was rebuilt after the commune to make it easy for the military to get cannons and horses onto the main roads. Interesting parallels with the diffused enterprise post 70s crisis.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> as you are clearly simple i will use short words. i never said that you are in league with tories. all posts are contributions, even yours. get off to a remedial reading class: you need it.



I made my contribution, to which you replied (in your customary pre-school fashion) "tory! tory! you're a big tory". When I rubbished your claims you came back with "thicky! thicky! you're a big thicky".

Your schtick gets tedious, I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking this. I don't support the violence & looting on the streets we're seeing - in much the same way I don't support police shooting people dead.

The fact that this view seems to make you foam at the mouth and spittle fleck this thread with your indignation, well, that's your problem, not mine.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Paris centre was rebuilt after the commune to make it easy for the military to get cannons and horses onto the main roads. Interesting parallels with the diffused enterprise post 70s crisis.


haussmann was before the franco-prussian war


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> It's just a bunch of stupid useless scumbags grabbing some free brand-name trainers. They've got nothing to protest about. They are just out on a "gibs me dat" grab whatever they can mission.
> 
> Giles..



Go on, euthanasia boy, have the courage of your convictions, and put some faces to the pidgin argot.

You two-bob cunt.


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Paris centre was rebuilt after the commune to make it easy for the military to get cannons and horses onto the main roads. Interesting parallels with the diffused enterprise post 70s crisis.



And Broadwater Farm had all it's walkways removed as they were used as elevated points from which to chuck stuff at the police.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> Lots of projecting going on here, imo, *i'm quite sure 10 year olds to 14 year olds have no political or otherwise consciousness of the cutting of bankers getting bigger bonuses*, of Thatcher and neo-liberalism, etc, it was opportunism, look at what they looted: games, tv's, clothes, very few political locations, job centres, etc were attacked, it wasn't Brixton or Toxteth, it was the above kids but also organised criminal and volent gangs out to get what they could. There is plenty for young people to be angry about it in London and indeed the Uk, but these people weren't part of that.
> 
> the initial protest outside the Police station was a different case..



absolutely wrong on the bolded point ime .. working in an innercity secondary school in Birmingham, lots of the kids there, even some in year 7 (10/11) are aware of the cuts, the bankers, the politics that is going on.. not thatcher or a theoretical understanding of neo-liberalism, but politics definitely.  Had plenty of them coming up to me after I was on local news on a UK Uncut protest and giving me respect, wanting to know more etc..been joined by a few on protests as well! (had as many ripping the piss out of me too of course)

I'm not saying there was no opportunism but there is also politics, and young kids - who are having their youth centres taken away, who are aware that they won't get EMA even thought they are being forced into staying in school post-16, choices being restricted, opportunities removed - are definitely aware of this.. not all of them, but from the experience in my school, I'd say by the time they are 14, most of them.. somewhere around year 9 (12/13) I'd say was the point where it was just a few of them to most of them..


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> haussmann was before the franco-prussian war


Yes, you're right. It was the 1848 revolution that led to his re-organisation not 1871. And it was that that helped killed the commune.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> I made my contribution, to which you replied (in your customary pre-school fashion) "tory! tory! you're a big tory". When I rubbished your claims you came back with "thicky! thicky! you're a big thicky".





Pickman's model said:


> no, you're a conservative with a small c not a Conservative, as in C & U Party



which part of that says you're a tory? you're a thick fuck krtek a houby.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> They should shoot a few of them. They probabyl weren't going to get jobs anyway.
> 
> Giles..



No, it's you who should be shot, you _rentier_ lesion on the body politic.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Political?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Tankus said:


> as well as a bit of PC idiocy......................... just for the sauce


TBF, you're a leading authority on idiocy.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> which part of that says you're a tory? you're a thick fuck krtek a houby.



Doesn't this sort of discourse belong in the playground?

I don't support violence and that makes me a tory - how is this so?


----------



## sunnysidedown (Aug 8, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> Thanks - the rest of it needed working on, but the postie just woke up the baby and i wanted to get something down.
> 
> Is it me or is this thread moving too quickly to have a decent discussion?



Agreed, maybe start a new thread with your observations?


----------



## Giles (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Am I right in thinking that the concept of 'socio-economic' context is a tad too tricky for your poor lil reactionary brain to handle?



A bunch of (mainly) teenage boys loading up trollies with stolen stuff, and setting people's cars, shops and homes on fire doesn't need a "socio economic context" any more than does a bunch of football hooligans or muggers: they are doing it because they want to steal shit and smash shit up. For fun, and personal gain.

Giles..


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

I wonder where they live then because I'm not aware of any 'slums' in London.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

@BT,

Points taken especially as you are a teacher, I do remember a GAP protest where loads of kids joined us and were very knowledgable about the issues, I still maintain in this case there are as P/Monkey says, thousands of lost kids who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves, leaving aside how they got that way..


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> A bunch of (mainly) teenage boys loading up trollies with stolen stuff, and setting people's cars, shops and homes on fire doesn't need a "socio economic context" any more than does a bunch of football hooligans or muggers: they are doing it because they want to steal shit and smash shit up. For fun, and personal gain.
> 
> Giles..


What do you mean 'need'? It _exists_ in a   "socio economic context" whether you like or recognise the fact or not.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> A bunch of (mainly) teenage boys loading up trollies with stolen stuff, and setting people's cars, shops and homes on fire doesn't need a "socio economic context" any more than does a bunch of football hooligans or muggers: they are doing it because they want to steal shit and smash shit up. For fun, and personal gain.
> 
> Giles..


 ^ this. It has fuck all to do with the peaceful march on Saturday. Mark Duggan's family have said they don't condone the riots etc. The people involved in said riots/looting hardly give a fuck about him, do they?


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> I wonder where they live then because I'm not aware of any 'slums' in London.



May not fit the standard definition of 'slums', but there are plenty of areas where the young, rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view, see no chance of themselves ever going to university and/or getting out of a cycle of poverty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Doesn't this sort of discourse belong in the playground?
> 
> I don't support violence and that makes me a tory - how is this so?


this is clearly beyond your rather limited abilities. nonetheless i will have one more try.

there is a political party in the uk called the conservative party. i have not said you have anything to do with them.

there is a political ideology called conservatism. i have said that i think you're a conservative of this sort.

if you don't understand that then there's no fucking doubt that you're more than slightly, er, intellectually challenged.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Bollocks. Its just the subspecies out to grab more shit, while causing maximum destruction all round. Which is just what they do.
> 
> Giles..



Sub-species, Giles?

Your agenda and your misanthropy are showing. Typical member of the middle-classes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Whereas you're the _ubermensch_, clearly



Giles doesn't even qualify as _untermensch_, he's more of a _scheissemensch_.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 8, 2011)

just heard that someone i used to work with has lost her flat and everything in it due to fire on saturday night


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you want it to be looters who burnt those buildings. fair enough. but fucking produce a shred of evidence to back up your assertion - its absence makes you look a bit daft.



I haven't mentioned looters burning anything, Pickers. You're confusing yourself again. I neither know nor care who torched what. I'm merely pointing out that your badgering of other posters to produce evidence as to who burned the buildings is pointless and pedantic, (no surprise there then).

Looters may have burned them, rioters may have burned them, looters may have become rioters, some rioters almost certainly became looters and vice versa.

You point, Pickers, is a wank one.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> this is clearly beyond your rather limited abilities. nonetheless i will have one more try.
> 
> there is a political party in the uk called the conservative party. i have not said you have anything to do with them.
> 
> ...



Listen closely. If you want to have a ding dong, look elsewhere. I utterly reject your tired, desperate accusations - there's not a grain in truth in them. Now, you can scweam and shout and question my intelligence all you like; the fact is - not all those on the "left" aspire to your lofty heights of absolutism. Some of us, frankly, are bored shitless with the posturing and empty rhetoric that people like you espouse.

I abhor violence and I don't think the weekend's events have achieved anything. Sorry if that offends your Stalinist sensibilities.


----------



## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> and i'd like to see evidence, if you please, of looters setting people's homes on fire.



There were flats above the Carpet shop in Tottenham

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16045157




			
				Sky News said:
			
		

> Stuart Radose, lived on Tottenham's High Road in a flat above a Carpetright store - both of which were destroyed during the violence.
> 
> "So many people have just lost everything. It's crazy," he said.
> 
> ...



Not sure if the first guy is the same person I saw interviewed on the BBC.

There are other reports that people were looting some carpets from the shop.

Of course, what I don't have is evidence that it was specifically someone engaged in looting that then set fire to the building. It might have just been a passing, non-looting pyromaniac who thought he had an opportunity.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

Garek said:


> May not fit the standard definition of 'slums', but there are plenty of areas where the young, rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view, see no chance of themselves ever going to university and/or getting out of a cycle of poverty.



A lot of that depends on your definition of poverty, ie not being able to buy the latest trainers, tv or have an expensive car and lots of bling.

Most of the reason that people see no chance of getting out of their "cycle of poverty" is because getting educated and working hard to improve yourself is not "cool" whereas hanging with your bluds and doing a bit of drug dealing gains "respect" amongst your peers.

I do not believe that anyone in our modern society cannot improve their lot.  Admittedly it may be harder for some than others, however I really don't think it's beyond anyone's grasp.


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> A lot of that depends on your definition of poverty, ie not being able to buy the latest trainers, tv or have an expensive car and lots of bling.
> 
> Most of the reason that people see no chance of getting out of their "cycle of poverty" is because getting educated and working hard to improve yourself is not "cool" whereas hanging with your bluds and doing a bit of drug dealing gains "respect" amongst your peers.
> 
> I do not believe that anyone in our modern society cannot improve their lot. Admittedly it may be harder for some than others, however I really don't think it's beyond anyone's grasp.



What a load of fucking shite.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> A lot of that depends on your definition of poverty, ie not being able to buy the latest trainers, tv or have an expensive car and lots of bling.
> 
> Most of the reason that people see no chance of getting out of their "cycle of poverty" is because getting educated and working hard to improve yourself is not "cool" whereas hanging with your bluds and doing a bit of drug dealing gains "respect" amongst your peers.
> 
> I do not believe that anyone in our modern society cannot improve their lot. Admittedly it may be harder for some than others, however I really don't think it's beyond anyone's grasp.



Well I'd certainly say reality is beyond _your_ grasp.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Listen closely. If you want to have a ding dong, look elsewhere. I utterly reject your tired, desperate accusations - there's not a grain in truth in them. Now, you can scweam and shout and question my intelligence all you like; the fact is - not all those on the "left" aspire to your lofty heights of absolutism. Some of us, frankly, are bored shitless with the posturing and empty rhetoric that people like you espouse.
> 
> I abhor violence and I don't think the weekend's events have achieved anything. Sorry if that offends your Stalinist sensibilities.


krtek

you're a fucking empty vessel with no intelligence to question. you don't know what absolutism means, or you wouldn't use the word as you do. and i'm not a stalinist.

you're a thick fuck. if you're not after a 'ding dong' fuck off.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

I do wonder how you lot always manage to turn things into a political issue.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Aug 8, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> just heard that someone i used to work with has lost her flat and everything in it due to fire on saturday night



 Sorry to hear that. If you hear anything about a support fund for those affected, could you post about it please?


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

Just remembered something. As part of my job at Currys, warehouse assistant, 10 years ago, I had to smash up teles in a skip that had either come back, or were so old there weren't worth selling. Perfectly good, working teles. A skip full. If they can afford waste like that, they can afford to be looted.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 8, 2011)

Garek said:


> What a load of fucking shite.


Yep. Having known someone like this and seen how nihilistic they were, I'd say, to ajdown, 'you don't have a fucking clue do you?' I know a couple of people working in social services with kids like this (one in Tottenham, the other in Coventry) and they both say, if you don't get them before they're teenagers you've little or no change of ever rehabilitating them.


----------



## xes (Aug 8, 2011)

No idea if this has been posted yet, been offline all weekend. But the preliminary reports have said that the bullet lodged in piggy wiggy radio, was police issue.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...nce-spreads-as-north-london-riots-continue.do



> Mr Duggan, a suspected member of a Tottenham gang, was killed by police specialist firearms officers during an operation last Thursday.
> The fact he was carrying a replica gun will raise fresh doubts over reports that he was shot in an exchange of fire.
> Preliminary ballistic tests on the bullet found lodged in a police officer's radio are believed to show that the ammunition was police issue.
> Initial reports from the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is investigating the shooting, suggested that Mr Duggan fired first and there was an exchange of shots. The Met has consistently refused to comment on the issue.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 8, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Sorry to hear that. If you hear anything about a support fund for those affected, could you post about it please?


definitely, we're trying to get hold of her to see what we can do to help out.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> A lot of that depends on your definition of poverty, ie not being able to buy the latest trainers, tv or have an expensive car and lots of bling.
> 
> Most of the reason that people see no chance of getting out of their "cycle of poverty" is because getting educated and working hard to improve yourself is not "cool" whereas hanging with your bluds and doing a bit of drug dealing gains "respect" amongst your peers.
> 
> I do not believe that anyone in our modern society cannot improve their lot. Admittedly it may be harder for some than others, however I really don't think it's beyond anyone's grasp.



Shocking.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> Nothing genetic about it. It is entirely nurture versus nature.



Quantified how, exactly?

See, the thing with people who make the sort of argument you have, is that they skim the surface of the literature and cherry-pick bits that fit they're preconceived agenda, so if you've found a novel quantification of the "nature versus nurture" argument that circumvents all the usual bullshit, I'd like to hear it.



> People on here have suggested that looting is somehow justified because of the capitalist society we live in. I am merely saying that if we have an underclass of people who are sustained with benefits/crimes then what the frick do we expect?



Again, you're arguing from your preconceptions rather than from fact. The existence of an underclass isn't a precondition for riot, neither is the existence of a section of the working class tied to crime as a method of obtaining income.

Do a bit of research on riots - the main precondition for riot (aside from religion, always a good one) is what you might term "excessive exploitation", either financially or politically. Seems to me that ties i quite closely with Capitalism, and partially justifies riot. What elese are people supposed to do when "normal channels" have either failed, or don't actually allow them access?



> Either I am right, the people who bemoan the capitalist system are right or neither of us are right.



Yes, it's that simple and reduces to three options, doesn't it?

You berk.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> krtek
> 
> you're a fucking empty vessel with no intelligence to question. you don't know what absolutism means, or you wouldn't use the word as you do. and i'm not a stalinist.
> 
> you're a thick fuck. if you're not after a 'ding dong' fuck off.



Ah, the old pickman "fuck off" automated dummy response. Change the record, fella.

I know you're not a Stalinist. It's a ridiculous accusation, in similar vein to your tactics.

You are an angry and bitter man who is well known for targetting posters and not letting go. I imagine its down to personality disorder or feelings of insecurity... you haven't answered why you my abhorence of the weekends events offends you so much, btw.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> Yep. Having known someone like this and seen how nihilistic they were, I'd say, to ajdown, 'you don't have a fucking clue do you?' I know a couple of people working in social services with kids like this (one in Tottenham, the other in Coventry) and they both say, if you don't get them before they're teenagers you've little or no change of ever rehabilitating them.



Thank the last 20-30 years of socialist politics destroying the education system and society in general for that one.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

When you say 'socialist' you do mean neo-liberal?


----------



## Diamond (Aug 8, 2011)

The guardian are reporting that the following may be an example of a BBM message used to coordinate the small Oxford Circus riot:



> Everyone from all sides of London meet up at the heart of London (central) OXFORD CIRCUS!!, Bare SHOPS are gonna get smashed up so come get some (free stuff!!!) fuck the feds we will send them back with OUR riot! >:O
> Dead the ends and colour war for now so
> if you see a brother... SALUT!
> if you see a fed... SHOOT!
> ...



Apparently BBM has been a key organising tool in the riots.


----------



## Giles (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Go on, euthanasia boy, have the courage of your convictions, and put some faces to the pidgin argot.
> 
> You two-bob cunt.



No argument, so make with the insults.

And what is this "pidgin argot"?

I just don't buy this stuff about how looting trainer-shops, computer and mobile phone shops etc, is a political act. These people are just stealing stuff "because they can".

Giles..


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> Thank the last 20-30 years of socialist politics destroying the education system and society in general for that one.



Thirty years ago was 1981. Are you saying Thatcher was a socialist?

Twenty Years ago was 1991. Are you saying Major was a socialist?


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2011)

It's not a political act, but this probably wouldn't have happened under different circumstances


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Ah, the old pickman "fuck off" automated dummy response. Change the record, fella.
> 
> I know you're not a Stalinist. It's a ridiculous accusation, in similar vein to your tactics.
> 
> You are an angry and bitter man who is well known for targetting posters and not letting go. I imagine its down to personality disorder or feelings of insecurity... you haven't answered why you my abhorence of the weekends events offends you so much, btw.


your abhorrence of the weekend's events doesn't offend me at all. you made that up. i haven't said that i'm offended by your views on the riots anywhere on these boards or elsewhere.


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> If they were anarchists and/or UK Uncut protestors would you feel it necessary to point out their racial backgrounds? If not, why not?



Bumped as Billie and other posters who have pointed out the racial make up of the rioters seem to have missed it and I'm interested in their answers.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> They should shoot a few of them. They probabyl weren't going to get jobs anyway.
> 
> Giles..



why don't get together with fellow knobhead fantasist Spymaster and do it yourselves, you both talk a good game on the internet you pitiful dweebs


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> I just don't buy this stuff about how looting trainer-shops, computer and mobile phone shops etc, is a political act. These people are just stealing stuff "because they can".
> 
> Giles..



You haven't quite grasped how luxury goods have been magically transformed into necessities. How do you think that happens?


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> These people are just stealing stuff "because they can".
> 
> Giles..



Wonder where there learnt that from...


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2011)

I see the terrorist-supporting "counter-jihad" scum are saying it's muslims doing the rioting on some parts of the internet.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> well, who else was it, only on urban will you get people defending violent looters*..
> 
> *here i mean the organised criminal gangs.
> 
> People on here may take certain lessons and pleasures from the looting, but the people in power, the R/W media and many of the population will take other (unpalatable to urbanites) extrapolations from them and will act accordingly, expect new measures on crime, welfare, immigration, etc...


There's a difference between defending the rioters - and understanding the social asnd ecfonomic causalo factors. Riots are not just 'the voice of the unheard'; they are a cry of despair, pure n simple. people do not riot if they have jobs, opportunities, hope and above all the feeling that there is a positive place for them in this society. I can understand how the kids in tottenham feel, cos there's every reason for them to not feel that any of those things exist for them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> I see the terrorist-supporting "counter-jihad" scum are saying it's muslims doing the rioting on some parts of the internet.


that would be the hassidic muslims then


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> There's a difference between defending the rioters - and understanding the social asnd ecfonomic causalo factors. Riots are not just 'the voice of the unheard'; they are a cry of despair, pure n simple. people do not riot if they have jobs, opportunities, hope and above all the feeling that there is a positive place for them in this society. I can understand how the kids in tottenham feel, cos there's every reason for them to not feel that any of those things exist for them.


well because they don't


----------



## Giles (Aug 8, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> You haven't quite grasped how luxury goods have been magically transformed into necessities. How do you think that happens?



By stupid and weak-minded people believing everything that they see on telly!

Giles..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

CNT36 said:


> I doubt it. It has fuck all to do with shit the EDL and BNP and assorted wankers say though. If it turns out a majority of rioters are Black or Asian might that not tell us about some of the inequalities of wealth in society? Could it not tell up something about who is hit the hardest by cuts? And about the hurt and anger that result?



Yep. Was explaining to my dad last night that youth unemployment for BMEs is more than twice what it is for white youth. We discussed why that might be and even he, inveterate Tory-voter, acknowledged that there was an element of racism as well as an element of classism to it. If you're shat on from the start, maybe not because of individual vindictiveness, but because the system operates in such a way as to disadvantage you, and on top of that it's always *your* community that gets most harshly affected by cuts, then why *wouldn't* you end up "chippy" about it, why *wouldn't* you perhaps find solace in "getting your own back" against anyone, anything you feel might have contributed to your situation?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

cantsin said:


> why don't get together with fellow knobhead fantasist Spymaster and do it yourselves, you both talk a good game on the internet you pitiful dweebs



Ahh, Catshit, there you are, you grubby little knicker-sniffer.

Been wanking over looted school-wear this weekend?


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

i reckon London will see the same sort of policing the Coalfields saw, tonight, they are being drafted in from all over the country.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> By stupid and weak-minded people believing everything that they see on telly!
> 
> Giles..



A predictable reply from the man without a pair of brain cells to rub together.

You're some kind of Social Darwinist, aren't you?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> By stupid and weak-minded people believing everything that they see on telly!
> 
> Giles..


They should be crushed. Lack of willpower - that's why we're in this mess.


----------



## trampie (Aug 8, 2011)

Oh dear how terrible for London.

Reminds me of the nursery rhyme:-
London's burning, London's burning.
Fetch the engines, fetch the engines.
Fire fire, Fire Fire!
Pour on water, pour on water.
London's burning, London's burning.

What will the World think and the Olympic's are coming too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> i reckon London will see the same sort of policing the Coalfields saw, tonight, they are being drafted in from all over the country.


what the cops will be waving tenners at people and handcuffing people to lampposts and running riot through working class parts of town and that?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Are there any jobs in the area for the unemployed to take?



Nope, like everywhere else in a similar urban situation, they're running at double and treble figures of applicants for every vacancy, and fuck-all opportunities if you're a youth.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 8, 2011)

this is the message that we just got:

_***'s flat was burnt to the ground in the riots. She was in the block above carpetright. Neighbour managed to wake her up just in time and help her get out with the baby, her son was at her mums. Its amazing no one was killed. Saw her yesterday, she's in total shock. That whole building was burnt to the ground. About 24 flats above the the shop - all gone._


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> A lot of that depends on your definition of poverty, ie not being able to buy the latest trainers, tv or have an expensive car and lots of bling.
> 
> Most of the reason that people see no chance of getting out of their "cycle of poverty" is because getting educated and working hard to improve yourself is not "cool" whereas hanging with your bluds and doing a bit of drug dealing gains "respect" amongst your peers.
> 
> I do not believe that anyone in our modern society cannot improve their lot. Admittedly it may be harder for some than others, however I really don't think it's beyond anyone's grasp.



Fuck me what planet did you grow up on?

I don't think you have any real idea how hard it is to 'improve your lot' in this day and age, and how much harder it is getting for more and more people very rapidly.

I suspect strongly that you haven't ever experienced real poverty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, like everywhere else in a similar urban situation, they're running at double and treble figures of applicants for every vacancy, and fuck-all opportunities if you're a youth.


yeh there were 300 people went for each of my jobs.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> A bunch of (mainly) teenage boys loading up trollies with stolen stuff, and setting people's cars, shops and homes on fire doesn't need a "socio economic context" any more than does a bunch of football hooligans or muggers: they are doing it because they want to steal shit and smash shit up. For fun, and personal gain.
> 
> Giles..


You are utterly, totally wrong, and it shows your stunning ignorance of this area (as well as your utterly worthless Tory politics).
Tottenham has some of the poorest neighbourhoods in the country. To grow up here is to grow up without hope, without jobs or prosperity, in a community scarred by crime, drugs,gangs and despair, with a blatantly racist, brutal local OB, into disfunctional, impoverished families, with a feeling that gets stronger every day that no-one gives a shit about you, and that this society offers you nothing.
 Sooner or later, that social pressure creates a breaking point - and this was it.
you EVER actually been to Tottenham, Giles? thought not. So please do not make these condescending assumptions about that community.


----------



## Tankus (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> because as i pointed out earlier, burning things is not conducive to the pasttime of looting.



err..... wrong ...it destroys evidence ..CCTV... prints... DNA and stuff

Creates a problem/diversion for the police that ties down manpower


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'http://woodgreenbookshop.blogspot.com/2011/08/north-london-looting.html'

awful news about the family, this bookshop was trashed too, looters i shit em...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Tankus said:


> err..... wrong ...it destroys evidence ..CCTV... prints... DNA and stuff
> 
> Creates a problem/diversion for the police that ties down manpower


stops you getting the stuff out the shop


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> A lot of that depends on your definition of poverty, ie not being able to buy the latest trainers, tv or have an expensive car and lots of bling.
> 
> Most of the reason that people see no chance of getting out of their "cycle of poverty" is because getting educated and working hard to improve yourself is not "cool" whereas hanging with your bluds and doing a bit of drug dealing gains "respect" amongst your peers.
> 
> I do not believe that anyone in our modern society cannot improve their lot. Admittedly it may be harder for some than others, however I really don't think it's beyond anyone's grasp.


You utter, fucking moron. You really don't have a clue, do you? These are neighbourhoods of sink schools, ghetto estates, unemployment, crack dens, massive deprivation...a world away from what I can only conclude is your nice, polite middle-class neighbourhood. EVERYTHING in tottenham is a desperate struggle just to get by.
They deal drugs cos there AREN'T any good legal jobs!


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh there were 300 people went for each of my jobs.



On some sites you can see it go treble figures in under four hours for some positions.

I never had this much trouble getting a job back in the 90s recession. They want years of experience to do even the most menial jobs nowadays. Youth don't stand a chance really.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> stops you getting the stuff out the shop



You grab yer swag then torch the gaff, innit?  Fucks sake, Pickers, don't you even know how to go looting????


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> I do wonder how you lot always manage to turn things into a political issue.


hmm, maybe it's because everything IS a political issue, mayhap?
Christ, this thread really has brought out the reactionary fuckwits


----------



## dennisr (Aug 8, 2011)

"march in Hackney. mare street shutters being closed" - so hackney?

(maybe this is your chance to develop technique pickers?)


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> On some sites you can see it go treble figures in under four hours for some positions.
> 
> I never had this much trouble getting a job back in the 90s recession. They want years of experience to do even the most menial jobs nowadays. Youth don't stand a chance really.


 it's fucking desperate for people on the rock


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Either way it's hard to believe he wouldn't have noticed it 'til he got back to the nick


You know how the old saying goes, Norm. "No sense, no feeling".


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 8, 2011)

dennisr said:


> "march in Hackney. mare street shutters being closed" - so hackney?


yes, have just heard the same, they reckon something planned for 3 or 4pm


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> a world away from what I can only conclude is your nice, polite middle-class neighbourhood.



Ah yes, my lovely polite middle class neighbourhood... I live in Brixton.


----------



## Tankus (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> You grab yer swag then torch the gaff, innit? Fucks sake, Pickers, don't you even know how to go looting????


arf  ....


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> You grab yer swag then torch the gaff, innit? Fucks sake, Pickers, don't you even know how to go looting????


you seem to have more experience of this than i would have thought.

if it was looters though it is interesting that wood green didn't go up in flames.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

dennisr said:


> "march in Hackney. mare street shutters being closed" - so hackney?
> 
> (maybe this is your chance to develop technique pickers?)


we'll give it a go den


----------



## dennisr (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> Ah yes, my lovely polite middle class neighbourhood... I live in Brixton.



ah, neuvo-middle class then?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> it's fucking desperate for people on the rock



.... especially since the Spanish tightened up the border controls.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> .... especially since the Spanish tightened up the border controls.


rock n roll - dole


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> You are utterly, totally wrong, and it shows your stunning ignorance of this area (as well as your utterly worthless Tory politics).
> Tottenham has some of the poorest neighbourhoods in the country. To grow up here is to grow up without hope, without jobs or prosperity, in a community scarred by crime, drugs,gangs and despair, with a blatantly racist, brutal local OB, into disfunctional, impoverished families, with a feeling that gets stronger every day that no-one gives a shit about you, and that this society offers you nothing.
> Sooner or later, that social pressure creates a breaking point - and this was it.
> you EVER actually been to Tottenham, Giles? thought not. So please do not make these condescending assumptions about that community.



The problem with this is analysis is that it is precisely one of those blights you mention - the gangs - who are behind most of this disorder, most of the crime, and far more attacks on the youth / the community than the OB (who by the way are not "blatantly racist, brutal") are.

Yes, Tottenham is very poor and the life chances of those who are raised there will be worse than most other places in the country, but we should not pretend that the vast majority of people who live and grew up there did this, or that the people who did do this have compelling reasons for doing so - any more than they have compelling reasons when they rob, stab, rape, shoot and kill other poor kids.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

Birbalsingh with another opportunistic blog. She's fucking shameless this one.



> Last night as I walked home from the gym, passing lots of young black people who had come out for the festival in Brixton yesterday, I could feel it. Boys with hoods over their heads, on bikes, smiling… White policemen standing in pairs, watching… music blasting in the streets. I turned to my friend. “They’re waiting for something to happen. They’re just waiting to jump.”
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/k...-hung-around-waiting-for-something-to-happen/



Fucking filth.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

dennisr said:


> ah, neuvo-middle class then?



I don't "do" class identification, I refuse to be shoehorned into a little socio-demographic tickbox.  I am me, and that's all there is to it.

*shrug*


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> The problem with this is analysis is that it is precisely one of those blights you mention - the gangs - who are behind most of this disorder, most of the crime, and far more attacks on the youth / the community than the OB (who by the way are not "blatantly racist, brutal") are.
> 
> Yes, Tottenham is very poor and the life chances of those who are raised there will be worse than most other places in the country, but we should not pretend that the vast majority of people who live and grew up there did this, or that the people who did do this have compelling reasons for doing so - any more than they have compelling reasons when they rob, stab, rape, shoot and kill other poor kids.


out of curiosity how do you know the people who 'did this' are rapists and murderers?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> You are utterly, totally wrong, and it shows your stunning ignorance of this area (as well as your utterly worthless Tory politics).
> Tottenham has some of the poorest neighbourhoods in the country. To grow up here is to grow up without hope, without jobs or prosperity, in a community scarred by crime, drugs,gangs and despair, with a blatantly racist, brutal local OB, into disfunctional, impoverished families, with a feeling that gets stronger every day that no-one gives a shit about you, and that this society offers you nothing.
> Sooner or later, that social pressure creates a breaking point - and this was it.
> you EVER actually been to Tottenham, Giles? thought not. So please do not make these condescending assumptions about that community.



I think we have to be careful not to over-sell it. There are plenty of glimmers of hope in Tottenham - from jobs nearby in Enfield and Walthamstow to self orgasnised consumer co-ops in Broadwater Farm and strong and well organised residents and tenants associations in many areas, and lets face it fairly active and well supported church and other community groups.

Tottenham is not a wasteland without hope - that''s not to deny the very real and widespread poverty (some of the worst in the country) and crime - but lets not do it down too much.

Your essential point is correct however, and I think the blame for this can be laid squarely at the door of the local police, who often quite frankly hold the local populace in contempt.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> I don't "do" class identification, I refuse to be shoehorned into a little socio-demographic tickbox. I am me, and that's all there is to it.
> 
> *shrug*


 In capitalist Britain class identifies you


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> I don't "do" class identification, I refuse to be shoehorned into a little socio-demographic tickbox. I am me, and that's all there is to it.
> 
> *shrug*



Middle Class it is.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> You are utterly, totally wrong, and it shows your stunning ignorance of this area (as well as your utterly worthless Tory politics).
> Tottenham has some of the poorest neighbourhoods in the country. To grow up here is to grow up without hope, without jobs or prosperity, in a community scarred by crime, drugs,gangs and despair, with a blatantly racist, brutal local OB, into disfunctional, impoverished families, with a feeling that gets stronger every day that no-one gives a shit about you, and that this society offers you nothing.
> Sooner or later, that social pressure creates a breaking point - and this was it.
> you EVER actually been to Tottenham, Giles? thought not. So please do not make these condescending assumptions about that community.



I've lived in Tottenham and Edmonton most of my life and you're talking a load of bollocks!

'Nope hope', 'despair', 'scarred'! Maybe you got Tottenham mixed up with Afghanistan.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> I wonder where they live then because I'm not aware of any 'slums' in London.



Quantify "slum".

In terms of housing quality, I can think of dozens of estates just local to me where the quality of housing is *lower* than the sort of place my parents were moved from in the '60s as part of the "slum clearances" in Southwark and Lambeth. Having an inside bog doesn't mean you don't live in a slum, it just means you live in a slum that has inside bogs.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you seem to have more experience of this than i would have thought.
> 
> if it was looters though it is interesting that wood green didn't go up in flames.



The looters were spread too thinly over the course of the evening. You can't expect them to respond to every opportunity immediately. Most of them had to decide whether to loot Dalston, or travel south to Bricky, and given the lack of available transport infrastructure they should be commended for their speedy response to both situations. Their resources were stretched to breaking point but they still coped. I think you're being unfair in raising the issue of the non-burning of Wood Green.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Garek said:


> May not fit the standard definition of 'slums', but there are plenty of areas where the young, rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view, see no chance of themselves ever going to university and/or getting out of a cycle of poverty.



Mr Down doesn't appear to grasp that a "slum" is a "slum" relative to the greater society it exists within. If the quality and upkeep of the housing is markedly poorer relative to the surrounding environment then it is, by definition, a "slum".


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quantify "slum".
> 
> In terms of housing quality, I can think of dozens of estates just local to me where the quality of housing is *lower* than the sort of place my parents were moved from in the '60s as part of the "slum clearances" in Southwark and Lambeth. Having an inside bog doesn't mean you don't live in a slum, it just means you live in a slum that has inside bogs.


yeh, a lot of the slums in hackney demolished in the 1930s actually looked relatively decent in pictures and sturdier than some of the housing which has replaced them.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> rock n roll - dole


----------



## teqniq (Aug 8, 2011)

more from twitter:



> *asa_wire* Asa Winstanley
> A mate in Brixton: "when the revolution is televised. 500 youth will have widescreen tvs to watch it on" haha


----------



## dennisr (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> Yes, Tottenham is very poor and the life chances of those who are raised there will be worse than most other places in the country, but we should not pretend that the vast majority of people who live and grew up there did this, or that the people who did do this have compelling reasons for doing so - any more than they have compelling reasons when they rob, stab, rape, shoot and kill other poor kids.



To an extent you have a point. But there is this nagging concern - you see - I cannot see how shooting some kid dead and then trying to cover up the reality 'helps' the situation? Any more that being the loyal imposers (while crying 'neutral' - 'just doing our job' etc) of enforsing (at last resort, when all else fails) cuts, criminalisation and institutionalling poverty, division and hopelessness 'helps' the situation? After so many decades of hearing the same old crocodile tears (wrapped in pointing to the failing of others to cover up your own sides failures) I get a bit - you know - cynical about your motivation for saying what you do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> The looters were spread too thinly over the course of the evening. You can't expect them to respond to every opportunity immediately. Most of them had to decide whether to loot Dalston, or travel south to Bricky, and given the lack of available transport infrastructure they should be commended for their speedy response to both situations. Their resources were stretched to breaking point but they still coped. I think you're being unfair in raising the issue of the non-burning of Wood Green.


dalston and brixton were, er, last night; wood green the night before.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

> Shops are shutting, buildings being evacuated in Hackney, and the Town Hall being protected by the police CONFIRMED #hackney #londonriots


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> out of curiosity how do you know the people who 'did this' are rapists and murderers?



you dont know that gangs rape and kill people?


----------



## trampie (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quantify "slum".
> 
> In terms of housing quality, I can think of dozens of estates just local to me where the quality of housing is *lower* than the sort of place my parents were moved from in the '60s as part of the "slum clearances" in Southwark and Lambeth. Having an inside bog doesn't mean you don't live in a slum, it just means you live in a slum that has inside bogs.


OMG, it sounds like a terrible area, a real rat hole, how awful.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> dalston and brixton were, er, last night; wood green the night before.



Well quite. You can't expect them to be everywhere all the time. Give 'em a break.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> you dont know that gangs rape and kill people?


no, i don't know it. but i'd be interested to see how you know it. i imagine there's some gangs which kill people and some people in gangs who rape people but i wouldn't say i know it.


----------



## Sue (Aug 8, 2011)

dennisr said:


> "march in Hackney. mare street shutters being closed" - so hackney?
> 
> (maybe this is your chance to develop technique pickers?)



Just been in the Tesco in Morning Lane. Some guy was sounding off about all the shops in Dalston closing early because 'they'd been told to.' Couple of police vans and lots of police outside the town hall when I went past.


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i don't know it. but i'd be interested to see how you know it. i imagine there's some gangs which kill people and some people in gangs who rape people but i wouldn't say i know it.



Do you not read, watch or generally follow the news?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> Do you not read, watch or generally follow the news?


the news is all too often long on allegations and short on proof.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> No argument, so make with the insults.
> 
> And what is this "pidgin argot"?



"Gibs me dat"?

I'm just surprised you didn't round it off with ""where am dat warty-mell-on?".



> I just don't buy this stuff about how looting trainer-shops, computer and mobile phone shops etc, is a political act. These people are just stealing stuff "because they can".
> 
> Giles..



You chide me for having no argument, fair enough. But to then post your opinion as though it presents any sort of argument, rather than merely showcasing your banal attempt to justify your misanthropy, is risible.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Been posted? _Time lapse shot as the fires burned into the early Morning over Tottenham_


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> By stupid and weak-minded people believing everything that they see on telly!
> 
> Giles..



Nope, by being inculcated with consumerism from the time they were old enough to be conscious of their surroundings. Think you're immune to it? Think you're better than these supposedly "stupid and weak-willed" people? You're not. None of us are. We all have the same forces acting on us. Some of us, by dint of whatever factors are better able to resist, but that's not because we're better people, it's because we're mostly in better circumstances.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

I guess by the mess left in the road by the neighbours and my ongoing damp problem at home I must live in a 'slum' then.  I guess I'd better stop by Poundland on my way home tonight to get a scarf or something I can wear later when I go out chucking bricks through random shop windows.


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

dennisr said:


> To an extent you have a point. But there is this nagging concern - you see - I cannot see how shooting some kid dead and then trying to cover up the reality 'helps' the situation? Any more that being the loyal imposers (while crying 'neutral' - 'just doing our job' etc) of enforsing (at last resort, when all else fails) cuts, criminalisation and institutionalling poverty, division and hopelessness 'helps' the situation? After so many decades of hearing the same old crocodile tears (wrapped in pointing to the failing of others to cover up your own sides failures) I get a bit - you know - cynical about your motivation for saying what you do.



It doesnt, and the fact that the Met is not believed when it comes out with statements nowadays is clearly its own fault, given its history.  I would hope however that the IPCC (as they did with Tomlinson, albeit unsupported by the CPS initially) and a full inquest gets to the bottom of what went on, and punish anyone who is found responsible for wrongdoing.


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> It doesnt, and the fact that the Met is not believed when it comes out with statements nowadays is clearly its own fault, given its history. I would hope however that the IPCC (as they did with Tomlinson, albeit unsupported by the CPS initially) and a full inquest gets to the bottom of what went on, and punish anyone who is found responsible for wrongdoing.



The IPCC are as distrusted as the police.


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

Garek said:


> The IPCC are as distrusted as the police.



Because of their long history of coverups?  Like... um... and you know...


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> Bumped as Billie and other posters who have pointed out the racial make up of the rioters seem to have missed it and I'm interested in their answers.



*If they were anarchists and/or UK Uncut protestors would you feel it necessary to point out their racial backgrounds? If not, why not?*

bumpity, bumpity, bumpity bump! bump bump bump!


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> Because of their long history of coverups? Like... um... and you know...



http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/feb/25/police.law1


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> *If they were anarchists and/or UK Uncut protestors would you feel it necessary to point out their racial backgrounds? If not, why not?*
> 
> bumpity, bumpity, bumpity bump! bump bump bump!



 Like in New Orleans, black people loot, white people find.


----------



## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Been posted? _Time lapse shot as the fires burned into the early Morning over Tottenham_



that is strangely beautiful.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh there were 300 people went for each of my jobs.



I've got a lot of respect for anyone who doesn't go to pieces with the employment situation the way it's been for the last 10 or so years. We thought we had it really bad in the late '70s, but there were only a million of us, and youth unemployment was nowhere near as savage, either.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

If these gangs are not confronted, they will I predict physically turn on other Londoners....


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

Garek said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/feb/25/police.law1



The PALG represent complainants against the police, they are hardly disinterested parties.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> Because of their long history of coverups? Like... um... and you know...



Well, they appear to have been involved in attempts to suppress the footage of Ian Tomlinson being attacked for example.



> It began with an anodyne press release from the Metropolitan police more than three hours after Ian Tomlinson died. It ended with a police officer and an investigator from the Independent Police Complaints Commissionasking the Guardian to remove a video from its website showing an unprovoked police assault on Mr Tomlinson minutes before his heart attack. <snip>
> 
> But the release of the video by the Guardian this week, which revealed Mr Tomlinson was subjected to an unprovoked attack by a Met riot squad officer minutes before he died, has forced the IPCC to step up to the demand that it launch a full independent inquiry.
> 
> ...



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/09/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson-g20

The key issue here being that they seemingly needed actual footage of an attack being committed before it occured to them to bother investigating, and that their first reaction was apparently to try to suppress the footage rather than investigate.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> well because they don't


quite!


----------



## cantsin (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Ahh, Catshit, there you are, you grubby knicker-sniffer!
> 
> Been wanking over looted school-wear this weekend?



wherever it is you dredge this perv shit from, you should really keep it to yourself, it's very grim , even by your squalid, delusionary standards


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Tankus said:


> err..... wrong ...it destroys evidence ..CCTV... prints... DNA and stuff
> 
> Creates a problem/diversion for the police that ties down manpower



Sorry, old son, but fire doesn't always "destroy" fingerprints and DNA. It makes them fuck-loads harder to process, but in some cases (with fingerprints for example) the evidence can be "fixed" by fire, rather than destroyed by it.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

Btw, all this copy cat rioting is so predictable< i remember during the early 80's Inner City, near Birkenhead, local peers of mine going into New Ferry to attempt one, the local shopkeepers had batons and baseball bats to prevent them (it didn't happen), the weird thing was , these youths had good jobs/apprenticeships in Cammell Lairds, Stanlow, etc, they also had absolutely no interest in politics.

It was too much testerone...


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> Ah yes, my lovely polite middle class neighbourhood... I live in Brixton.


In that case I can only assime you to be a white, bourgeois gentrifying incomer, becuase you have missed the point here by a staggeringly large amount.
And yes you DO have a social class, whether you like ot or not, and there is NO such thing as 'apolitical'.
Bloody liberals, I shit 'em


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> Btw, all this copy cat rioting is so predictable< i remember during the early 80's Inner City, near Birkenhead, local peers of mine going into New Ferry to attempt one, the local shopkeepers had batons and baseball bats to prevent them (it didn't happen), the weird thing was , these youths had good jobs/apprenticeships in Cammell Lairds, Stanlow, etc, they also had absolutely no interest in politics.
> 
> It was too much testerone...


How many people at work are happy to be there?


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 8, 2011)

Four hooly vans speeding west along Embankment w/ blues n twos


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 8, 2011)

Six now


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Four hooly vans speeding west along Embankment w/ blues n twos


six is more like it. they usually travel in multiples of three.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> In that case I can only assime you to be a white, bourgeois gentrifying incomer, becuase you have missed the point here by a staggeringly large amount.
> And yes you DO have a social class, whether you like ot or not, and there is NO such thing as 'apolitical'.
> Bloody liberals, I shit 'em



I have a job therefore I must be working class.


----------



## dennisr (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Bloody liberals, I shit 'em



and neo-liberals


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> I have a job therefore I must be working class.


bollocks. by that understanding, david cameron is working class because he has a job.


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> If these gangs are not confronted, they will I predict physically turn on other Londoners....



do keep up, they do that already, lots of organisations that 'confront' them ALREADY having their funding cut though


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> I don't "do" class identification, I refuse to be shoehorned into a little socio-demographic tickbox. I am me, and that's all there is to it.
> 
> *shrug*


utter rubbish, you ARE a member of a social class full stop. Jesus, do you have ANY politics, and why are you even posting on a politics forum?


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> I guess by the mess left in the road by the neighbours and my ongoing damp problem at home I must live in a 'slum' then. I guess I'd better stop by Poundland on my way home tonight to get a scarf or something I can wear later when I go out chucking bricks through random shop windows.



Give us your address and I'll make sure that at least some of the bricks aren't chucked randomly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> Give us your address and I'll make sure that at least some of the bricks aren't chucked randomly.


----------



## dennisr (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> Give us your address and I'll make sure that at least some of the bricks aren't chucked randomly.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> I do wonder how you lot always manage to turn things into a political issue.



iyou only seek to de politicise these things because by doing so you can paint it in to nice easy chunks for your crap brain to chew on. Good/bad.

and your slip is showing, 'get me blad?' you prick


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

Garek said:


> Like in New Orleans, black people loot, white police officers shoot.



changed for ya


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

BA

'How many people at work are happy to be there? '

as someone who was unemployed during those years and had a terrible time compared to those with apprenticeships, in the context of this i find that comment quite crass, they were haveing a fucking great time believe me..


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> changed for ya


Just got convicted as well. I was going to add it to the NO thread but....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

trampie said:


> OMG, it sounds like a terrible area, a real rat hole, how awful.



What an ignorant thing to say.

Poor housing conditions don't make or break an area, it's community or lack of it that does that, and thankfully we slum-dwelling povs tend to have a reasonably good sense of community still.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> BA
> 
> 'How many people at work are happy to be there? '
> 
> as someone who was unemployed during those years and had a terrible time compared to those with apprenticeships, in the context of this i find that comment quite crass, they were haveing a fucking great time believe me..



As some one who was employed during that time (not that it's about that time) i can assure you that people wanting to have a pop at the OB is part of general alienation, not because you don't have a job. Your own post argues the same thing ffs.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> utter rubbish, you ARE a member of a social class full stop. Jesus, do you have ANY politics, and why are you even posting on a politics forum?



Because it's also "current affairs and news" in case you hadn't noticed the actual forum title.  I'd say the rioting was pretty current and newsworthy.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

The other point, perhaps less contentious, about the IPCC in this sort of context is the 'taking too long' one.

Accounts that I've heard regarding the demo from which the riots kicked off suggest that a key concern of Duggan's family was finding out 'what happened' ...

No doubt there are all kinds of reasons, some of them legitimate, that the IPCC could give for not being terribly forthcoming in response to familiy questions.

One can though, given all the 'evil gangsta dies in gunfight with hero cops' stories last week and the Met's extensive form for using the gutter press to spread lies about people it kills, understand why an angry/grieving family might be suspicious that they weren't hearing anything because the Met's PR people and the IPCC (plus possibly a few journos from the Scum and/or Mail) were huddled somewhere figuring out how they were going to spin the shooting and smear Mark Duggan.

If the IPCC is to play any role in restoring public confidence it needs to step into that gap, communicating effectively with angry/grieving relatives early on and establish its credentials as a genuinely independent body that can be trusted to see justice done.

It has yet to do so.

Instead it leaves the field clear for the Met's PR weasels to brief their corruption-partners in the gutter press to print a pack of cynical lies about anyone the cops have killed and then wonders why people get angry ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> Because it's also "current affairs and news" in case you hadn't noticed the actual forum title. I'd say the rioting was pretty current and newsworthy.


do you have any politics?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> We are dealing with animals. There is no logic.



sniff sniff... ah hideous racist troll alert...

and you may be an animal but then we all are fuckwit you know being as we are mammals... 

I mean really in your head does the phrase dealing with animals equate to some higher logic which the rest of us aren't privy too?

cos you might as well have said we're dealing with oxygen breathers for all the sense or insight it provides...


----------



## drewg (Aug 8, 2011)

Just back from Tottenham High Street (pics here)
Terrible to see the destruction and the smell of burning is so powerful. Saw David Lammy condemn the rioters and be confronted by a guy who had a go at him for getting rid of the police. Lammy explained that he is labour who wasn't responsible for cutting the old bill


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> I guess by the mess left in the road by the neighbours and my ongoing damp problem at home I must live in a 'slum' then. I guess I'd better stop by Poundland on my way home tonight to get a scarf or something I can wear later when I go out chucking bricks through random shop windows.



Private rental? If so, then you have the ability to exercise a lot more control over the maintenance of your home than the average council tenant, and if you haven't done so, then you've frankly no-one to blame but yourself for your damp problem.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Paul Lewis just killed himself as a journo.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Paul Lewis just killed himself as a journo.


how's that?


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm behind the curve on this now, is there any suggestion Mark Duggan had a gun on him?


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

http://wintsays.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/tottenham-enfield-brixton-polcing-and-public-disorder/

http://twitter.com/#!/InspectorWinter

first hand reports from a police blog, remarkably open...


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> how's that?


He's spent all day trying to get bbms saying how /when/where things would happen and he's just posted one. He will now be seen as a grass so the ground level shit he's supposed to do - it isn't going to happen ever again.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Gosh, you've not made a single sweeping assumption based on dick-all except your own social prejudices there, have you?



Are you saying then, that living on a run down council estate, being brought up by dysfunctional parents and having failed educationally are _*not*_ reasons for the disaffection and alienation that some of the youths taking part in the rioting have behaved as they have?  It would seem that many people excusing this behaviour see that these reasons are responsible?


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> do you have any politics?



I'd be a fully paid up member of the Apathy Party, if I could be bothered to send off the application form.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'I don’t know what this evening (MONDAY) will hold, I hope that it is all over, I hope that we do not see anymore injured officers, no more wounded members of the public, no more lives destroyed by the idiocy of people who cannot control their own greed. Because that’s what happened in Enfield, Brixton and other areas last night, greed, they saw people looting the Tottenham Hale retail park and they wanted some of that, they robbed, assaulted and stole. My only message to them is this. We will find you, we will bring you to justice, when you are sat in your homes watching your brand new 42″ flat screen TV fear every single knock at your door, we are coming.'

Sounds more like Agri than say Pickmans Model's stereotypes, but it is only a blog..


----------



## TopCat (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> you dont know that gangs rape and kill people?


Police are the biggest most equipped gang in town. Adept at rape and murder too.


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> He's spent all day trying to get bbms saying how /when/where things would happen and he's just posted one. He will now be seen as a grass so the ground level shit he's supposed to do - it isn't going to happen ever again.



that was one of yesterday's bbm messages, and there were a lot more that he could have published.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 8, 2011)

scene outside town hall in hackney just now apparently..


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

If you puts the words here 





> HERE


 you get a



> quote



TL

The last icon on the right does it.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> that was one of yesterday's bbm messages, and there were a lot more that he could have published.


I'm sure there are. He's still fucked at this now. He'll be known as a grass.


----------



## eoin_k (Aug 8, 2011)

shutters going down on broadway market.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 8, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> scene outside town hall in hackney just now apparently..



Any excuse to take photos of teenage girls  lol


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> I'm behind the curve on this now, is there any suggestion Mark Duggan had a gun on him?



The IPCC were still saying that there was a 'non police handgun at the scene' last I checked. No information on whether it had been fired or not though.


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I'm sure there are. He's still fucked at this now. He'll be known as a grass.



maybe, but given how many BBM broadcasts were sent out, and how widely they were spread, I doubt it.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Agricola - can you use mobiles at work? Can TSG? Do they?


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'Last night, looters not only broke into the store and stole company stock, but also broke into staff lockers and stole their possessions. How can these actions be remotely justified?'

looting from staff went on as well, all hail the new proletariat!


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> maybe, but given how many BBM broadcasts were sent out, and how widely they were spread, I doubt it.


Nah, he's gone, it doesn't matter that he posted one, it's not about _who_ posted it, its about him publishing it _at all_. His name must now be dirt.,


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 8, 2011)

Just reposted from Twitter

Tottenham's homeless families - how to help. Take clothing, bedding, toys and other suitable items to Apex house, 820 Seven Sisters Road N15   More info here http://www.harringayonline.com/foru...tenham?id=844301:Topic:276643&page=1#comments


----------



## marty21 (Aug 8, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> scene outside town hall in hackney just now apparently..


 is it kicking off in hackney now, ffs, I'll need to leave early, and make sure my holiday home is well secured, and my beamer is garaged


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Last night, looters not only broke into the store and stole company stock, but also broke into staff lockers and stole their possessions. How can these actions be remotely justified?'
> 
> looting from staff went on as well, all hail the new proletariat!



TL, calm down and stop this.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 8, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> Just reposted from Twitter
> 
> Tottenham's homeless families - how to help. Take clothing, bedding, toys and other suitable items to Apex house, 820 Seven Sisters Road N15



a lot of boroughs place people in temp accomodation in Tottenham (basically because it it a lot cheaper than other inner London boroughs - I suspect those people may well be beating a path to the HPUs of Islington/Camden/Westminster demanding to be moved.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> He's spent all day trying to get bbms saying how /when/where things would happen and he's just posted one. He will now be seen as a grass so the ground level shit he's supposed to do - it isn't going to happen ever again.



Seeing as he has previously broken assurances to sources (re the spotter cards) your prognosis seems inaccurate.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 8, 2011)

Sounds like the poor sods are being housed in the leisure centre at the moment.  Shit it sounds so bad down there, so depressed after the call from my neighbour.  They are so scared after the attack last night.


----------



## trampie (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Poor housing conditions don't make or break an area, it's community or lack of it that does that, and thankfully we slum-dwelling povs tend to have a reasonably good sense of community still.


_''A reasonably good sense of community''_ you say, rioting, looting and burning properties to the ground .


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> I'm behind the curve on this now, is there any suggestion Mark Duggan had a gun on him?



In a sock, last I heard.

Trouble is there's so much bollocks being reported via Shitter and then posted in forums, nobody's got a fucking scooby.


----------



## Sue (Aug 8, 2011)

marty21 said:


> is it kicking off in hackney now, ffs, I'll need to leave early, and make sure my holiday home is well secured, and my beamer is garaged



Can hear lots of sirens in Mare St.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

DaveCinzano said:


> Seeing as he has previously broken assurances to sources (re the spotter cards) your prognosis seems inaccurate.



I was unaware of his past. Must keep bigger files.


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Last night, looters not only broke into the store and stole company stock, but also broke into staff lockers and stole their possessions. How can these actions be remotely justified?'
> 
> looting from staff went on as well, all hail the new proletariat!



The left! Muslim fundamentalists! Looters!


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> Equally, please tell me the research you have done that shows they are employed and not soley reliant on benefits?
> 
> I am taking a wild stab in the dark based on my knowledge of the area and people in it from my work as a nurse in a North London hospital. I could be totally wrong and if I were to proved wrong I'd hold my hands up. But I don't think I am.
> 
> Also, at no point did I say people were poor because they were black so please do not put words in my mouth.



You're a nurse? You're a disgrace to the profession.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'Tottenham's homeless families - how to help. Take clothing, bedding, toys and other suitable items to Apex house, 820 Seven Sisters Road N15 More info here http://www.harringayonline.com/foru...tenham?id=844301:Topic:276643&page=1#comments'

Good stuff, apparently Lord harris, Tory founder of carpet right wants to help/donate to


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> You're a nurse? You're a disgrace to the profession.


There was a racist nurse on here before. Southampton. Maybe it's them.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 8, 2011)

Bigger files.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'I don’t know what this evening (MONDAY) will hold, I hope that it is all over, I hope that we do not see anymore injured officers, no more wounded members of the public, no more lives destroyed by the idiocy of people who cannot control their own greed. Because that’s what happened in Enfield, Brixton and other areas last night, greed, they saw people looting the Tottenham Hale retail park and they wanted some of that, they robbed, assaulted and stole. My only message to them is this. We will find you, we will bring you to justice, when you are sat in your homes watching your brand new 42″ flat screen TV fear every single knock at your door, we are coming.'
> 
> Sounds more like Agri than say Pickmans Model's stereotypes, but it is only a blog..


what blog does that come from, as a matter of interest?


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> I could take lessons from the countless scum I've had to treat in A&E who do exactly that.



This statement alone is enough to get you up in front of a fitness to practice panel. Good job you're using a pseudonym eh.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> Good stuff, apparently Lord harris, Tory founder of carpet right wants to help/donate to



Lord Harris nearly made my family destitute.


----------



## Giles (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> You utter, fucking moron. You really don't have a clue, do you? These are neighbourhoods of sink schools, ghetto estates, unemployment, crack dens, massive deprivation...a world away from what I can only conclude is your nice, polite middle-class neighbourhood. EVERYTHING in tottenham is a desperate struggle just to get by.
> They deal drugs cos there AREN'T any good legal jobs!



If it is the dump you describe .... then this is because the people who live in it make it so.

Giles..


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> You're a nurse? You're a disgrace to the profession.


I reckon she works either at St Anns or North London. i'd like to see her come out with that shit at either of those locations


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> You're a nurse? You're a disgrace to the profession.


but by no means alone in that:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article730898.ece

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/mar/04/ukcrime.nhs

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-260220/Nurse-killed-patients-free-beds.html


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I reckon she works either at St Anns or North London. i'd like to see her come out with that shit at either of those locations



She is not a nurse. Nor a she.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> If it is the dump you describe .... then this is because the people who live in it make it so.
> 
> Giles..


No it isn't you clueless Tory moron. poverty, deprivation, social exclusion, lack of opportunities and shit education make it so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Tottenham's homeless families - how to help. Take clothing, bedding, toys and other suitable items to Apex house, 820 Seven Sisters Road N15 More info here http://www.harringayonline.com/foru...tenham?id=844301:Topic:276643&page=1#comments'
> 
> Good stuff, apparently Lord harris, Tory founder of carpet right wants to help/donate to


of course lord harris played such a role in making haringey what it is today


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Posh areas are posh because people made them so.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

By their sheer will


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I reckon she works either at St Anns or North London. i'd like to see her come out with that shit at either of those locations



neither. try further north and more to the west although i did a rotation last year at homerton where i became quite versed in the art of knife crime.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> By their sheer will



... then why does it not appear to follow that if good people make areas good, bad people make areas bad?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

btw: el Pais has this as racial, interested to hear any other foreign language coverage


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> ... then why does it not appear to follow that if good people make areas good, bad people make areas bad?


Yes, you've put your finger on it there aj.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> but by no means alone in that:
> 
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article730898.ece
> 
> ...



oh awesome. i criticise people for engaging in knife crime and now i'm killing patients.

i may think a small % the people i have to treat are scum, that my time is wasted patching up people who are intent on killing themselves but no matter who they are or what they do, they get the same standard of care. to do anything else would be a disgrace to my profession.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> ... then why does it not appear to follow that if good people make areas good, bad people make areas bad?



You really are mentally deficient, aren't you?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> In a sock, last I heard.
> 
> Trouble is there's so much bollocks being reported via Shitter and then posted in forums, nobody's got a fucking scooby.



A replica in a sock, apparently.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> If it is the dump you describe .... then this is because the people who live in it make it so.



You really are a fuckin' twat.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Posh areas are posh because people made them so.



That is, in fact, true.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

I wonder what bollocks they will come up with to explain the bullet in the radio


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> You really are mentally deficient, aren't you?



Not in the slightest.  If the assumption that nice areas are nice because the people that live there make it so then surely it has to logically follow that bad areas are bad because the people that live there make it so, and either way, people have the power to turn round their areas if they put their mind to it.

Surely you must agree that the last 30 years of improvement and reputation building that has gone on in Brixton following the riots of the 1980's has been screwed by last night's completely pointless and unwarranted violence and looting - which can't have anything to do with what went on on Tottenham.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> neither. try further north and more to the west although i did a rotation last year at homerton where i became quite versed in the art of knife crime.


either way, do you come out with this sort of spiteful, hateful shit in front of your colleagues, or the patients.
I'll bet you don't


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> Are you saying then, that living on a run down council estate, being brought up by dysfunctional parents and having failed educationally are _*not*_ reasons for the disaffection and alienation that some of the youths taking part in the rioting have behaved as they have? It would seem that many people excusing this behaviour see that these reasons are responsible?



I'm saying that your generalising is a bag of bollocks, Chris.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> oh awesome. i criticise people for engaging in knife crime and now i'm killing patients.



Welcome to urban. 



> i may think a small % the people i have to treat are scum, that my time is wasted patching up people who are intent on killing themselves but no matter who they are or what they do, they get the same standard of care. to do anything else would be a disgrace to my profession.



You don't have to justify yourself to comments like that. It will only be used against you.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> Not in the slightest. If the assumption that nice areas are nice because the people that live there make it so then surely it has to logically follow that bad areas are bad because the people that live there make it so, and either way, people have the power to turn round their areas if they put their mind to it.
> 
> Surely you must agree that the last 30 years of improvement and reputation building that has gone on in Brixton following the riots of the 1980's has been screwed by last night's completely pointless and unwarranted violence and looting - which can't have anything to do with what went on on Tottenham.


It only takes a small number of people to make it shitty for the other 95%


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> ... then why does it not appear to follow that if good people make areas good, bad people make areas bad?


there are a number of influences on tottenham, which i will then contrast with the influences on kensington and chelsea. the people who live in tottenham generally have very little power, wealth, authority or influence. the people in kensington and chelsea, by comparison, generally do have power, wealth, authority or influence. this is due to the relative educational opportunities, the backgrounds and the employment opportunities of the residents of these two areas. in addition, the policies of the local authority play a part. but the facts on the ground, due in part to bomb damage, to past housing policies, town planning and so on, also impact on each area. it's by no means as simple as tidy children live in kensington and chelsea, or areas like that, or untidy children live in tottenham or areas like that. even tidy children in tottenham face a huge ramp to climb compared with untidy children in kensington, due in part to the educational and other factors i've mentioned, to their cultural capital, and so on.

an area's population plays a part in determining if an area's 'good' or 'bad', but there are other actors and factors at play too.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> I wonder what bollocks they will come up with to explain the bullet in the radio



Some bollocks about the cop ammo store getting looted?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

trampie said:


> _''A reasonably good sense of community''_ you say, rioting, looting and burning properties to the ground .


Don't put words in my mouth, there's a good halfwit.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> I wonder what bollocks they will come up with to explain the bullet in the radio



What's your explanation?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> There was a racist nurse on here before. Southampton. Maybe it's them.



Wondered about that myself.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> A replica in a sock, apparently.



Doesn't matter if it's a replica or real, Bishta, anyone carrying something that looks like a handgun, with the intention to threaten or frighten other people, should have no complaints if the OB shoot them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Some bollocks about the cop ammo store getting looted?


not sure where the arsenal for n.e. london is, but the one for north london is kentish town - and i haven't heard anything about that getting smashed into. plus co19 are based in leman street, down aldgate, and it would be something of a surprise if their arsenal was broken into.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Doesn't matter if it's a replica or real, Bishta, anyone carrying something that looks like a handgun, with the intention to threaten or frighten other people, should have no complaints if the OB shoot them.


Let's see what happened. How the story evolves. What are the changes already?


----------



## Sue (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> btw: el Pais has this as racial, interested to hear any other foreign language coverage


Liberation is reporting it happening 'after a demonstration demanding justice for a 29 year-old man, Mark Duggan, who was killed on Thursday after an exchange of gunfire with police.' Doesn't say anything about it being racially-inspired. Will have a look at Le Monde etc when I get a chance.

ETA
Le Monde says residents are blaming local tensions and unemployment and say there's increasing anger about police stopping and searching young black men.


----------



## trampie (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> .


Can you see the rioting from where you are ?


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Some bollocks about the cop ammo store getting looted?


Like when Notts police managed to 'lose' handgun out the back of a van in 2005?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Sue said:


> Liberation is reporting it happening 'after a demonstration demanding justice for a 29 year-old man, Mark Duggan, who was killed on Thursday after an exchange of gunfire with police.' Doesn't say anything about it being racially-inspired. Will have a look at Le Monde etc when I get a chance.


Cheers Sue


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Doesn't matter if it's a replica or real, Bishta, anyone carrying something that looks like a handgun, with the intention to threaten or frighten other people, should have no complaints if the OB shoot them.


Some replica weapons earlier....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

trampie said:


> Can you see the rioting from where you are ?


Can you see an idiot every time you look into a reflective surface?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> What's your explanation?


 
based on nothing other than wild speculation based on my opinion of the met I recon he shot his own radio after the fact to cover a fuckup.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> not sure where the arsenal for n.e. london is, but the one for north london is kentish town - and i haven't heard anything about that getting smashed into. plus co19 are based in leman street, down aldgate, and it would be something of a surprise if their arsenal was broken into.



Then that only leaves one explanation to answer dots' question -  another pig cover up. Planting a police round in a radio? How low can they go?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Some replica weapons earlier....


Fuck, some mean-looking sawn-offs there!


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Let's see what happened. How the story evolves. What are the changes already?



I'm not sure. There's so much bollocks flying around you can't tell what to believe.

Is it certain now that the bullet in the radio was a cop one, or is that third hand reporting too?

A woman on the news this morning said "it was rumoured" to be from a police weapon.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Doesn't matter if it's a replica or real, Bishta, anyone carrying something that looks like a handgun, with the intention to threaten or frighten other people, should have no complaints if the OB shoot them.



Fitting someone up & then murdering them is the way the MET do things.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> based on nothing other than wild speculation based on my opinion of the met I recon he shot his own radio after the fact to cover a fuckup.



A 'negligent discharge' - sack the cunt.


----------



## xes (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> based on nothing other than wild speculation based on my opinion of the met I recon he shot his own radio after the fact to cover a fuckup.


 I reckon it was a deflected bullet, cop goes to shoot the guy, and it bounces back off of something in the taxi. Butthis is pure speculation, as we don'#t have any facts about the incident, and we're not likely to get any, either.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> I'm not sure. There's so much bollocks flying around you can't tell what to believe.
> 
> Is it certain now that the bullet in the radio was a cop one, or is that third hand reporting too?
> 
> A woman on the news this morning said "it was rumoured" to be from a police weapon.



Someone leaked to the guardian that it was. That doesn't mean that it is. The total lack of police denial makes people think that it's true.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

if it did play out the way it's been suggested here, then i suspect saturday night won't be the end of it in tottenham.


----------



## trampie (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Can you see an idiot every time you look into a reflective surface?


Depends who's stood behind me. Is your abode still standing ?, the scenes on the tv looks like London in the blitz.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> A 'negligent discharge' - sack the cunt.



Remember what used to happen to you if you did that in the Light Infantry, Bish?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> Not in the slightest. If the assumption that nice areas are nice because the people that live there make it so then surely it has to logically follow that bad areas are bad because the people that live there make it so, and either way, people have the power to turn round their areas if they put their mind to it.



As I said, mentally deficient. You actually think he was serious about nice areas being nice because of nice people doing nice things, don't you? ffs


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

trampie said:


> Depends who's stood behind me. Is your abode still standing ?, the scenes on the tv looks like London in the blitz.



Shit blitz. Grow up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Remember what used to happen to you if you did that in the Light Infantry, Bish?


a slap on the wrist?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Someone leaked to the guardian that it was. That doesn't mean that it is. The total lack of police denial makes people think that it's true.



The total lack of plod saying _anything_ about this stinks.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 8, 2011)

Guardian is saying the "gun in the sock" info is from a "community organiser"



> The latest developments come as one community organiser suggested the handgun recovered was found in a sock and therefore not ready for use. It is likely to fuel anger on the streets of Tottenham and elsewhere in London if it provides evidence that officers were not under attack at the time they opened fire on Duggan.


 http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

trampie said:


> Depends who's stood behind me. Is your abode still standing ?, the scenes on the tv looks like London in the blitz.


during the blitz the searchlights pointed to the sky.


----------



## bluestreak (Aug 8, 2011)

god there's a lot of twisted knickers around here.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Remember what used to happen to you if you did that in the Light Infantry, Bish?



I was guilty once of such a crime - i put it down to fatigue. That excuse didn't stick & i was beasted


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I was guilty once of such a crime - i put it down to fatigue. That excuse didn't stick & i was beasted


That poor dog


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 8, 2011)

Also - the IPCC were at the scene of the shooting within a couple of hours. Can anyone remember that happening before?


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Then that only leaves one explanation to answer dots' question - another pig cover up. Planting a police round in a radio? How low can they go?



Thats not very likely - for a start, if you were going to plant a round (edit: which of course means firing at it) in a radio, why on earth would you use a round that only the MPS used? Wouldnt that defeat the object of planting evidence to mislead a subsequent investigation?

Its more likely that either some other officer on the other side of Duggan fired at him (and missed, and hit a colleague - though they would surely have known whether this happened or not by now), or that the round has been mis-identified in the initial forensic tests (there still hasnt been official confirmation as to what it was), or that somehow some MPS ammunition has been lost / stolen / sold on.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Fitting someone up & then murdering them is the way the MET do things.



 Nah!

I'm sure the odd Met officer has been a murderer, but I don't think it's an institutionalised problem.

If I were a homicidal copper I'd take the fella somewhere quiet, then shoot him in self defence when he 'tried to attack me'. None of this dragging him out of taxis and popping him twice in the face on the pavement in front of random witnesses.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

trampie said:


> Depends who's stood behind me. Is your abode still standing ?, the scenes on the tv looks like London in the blitz.



London is big. Tottenham is about 7 miles away as the crow flies, and on the other side of the Thames. One little tiny bit of it "looks like the blitz".


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm saying that your generalising is a bag of bollocks, Chris.



Fair enough, but if my generalising is bollocks what about Streathamite's post #1410 on page 47 of this thread? He says:

_"You are utterly, totally wrong, and it shows your stunning ignorance of this area (as well as your utterly worthless Tory politics)._​_Tottenham has some of the poorest neighbourhoods in the country. To grow up here is to grow up without hope, without jobs or prosperity, in a community scarred by crime, drugs,gangs and despair, with a blatantly racist, brutal local OB, into disfunctional, impoverished families, with a feeling that gets stronger every day that no-one gives a shit about you, and that this society offers you nothing._​_Sooner or later, that social pressure creates a breaking point - and this was it."_​
He is saying basically the same as me, why is my view bollocks and his isn't?​


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Nah!
> 
> I'm sure the odd Met officer has been a murderer, but I don't think it's an institutionalised problem.
> 
> If I were a homicidal copper I'd take the fella somewhere quiet, then shoot him in self defence when he 'tried to attack me'. None of this dragging him out of taxis and popping him twice in the face on the pavement in front of random witnesses.


Are you a mental armed copper?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Us: read this


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> Thats not very likely - for a start, if you were going to plant a round in a radio, why on earth would you use a round that only the MPS used? Wouldnt that defeat the object of planting evidence to mislead a subsequent investigation?
> 
> Its more likely that either some other officer on the other side of Duggan fired at him (and missed, and hit a colleague - though they would surely have known whether this happened or not by now), or that the round has been mis-identified in the initial forensic tests (there still hasnt been official confirmation as to what it was), or that somehow some MPS ammunition has been lost / stolen / sold on.



Firstly, they wouldn't have a clue as to what rounds/firearm he was using. Secondly, plod wouldn't have been standing in any line of fire from their own officers. Thirdly, the info being leaked to the Guardian is telling me that they've once again, fucked up.


----------



## eoin_k (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Paris centre was rebuilt after the commune to make it easy for the military to get cannons and horses onto the main roads. Interesting parallels with the diffused enterprise post 70s crisis.



I'm not convinced that it is all about physical town planning.  Belfast has plenty of estates designed to suppress rioting with features like a single entrance road that makes it easy to control access.  Despite this the city experiences more than its fair share of public order incidents. I think London could follow a Paris model simply by excluding the multitude/masses/people/working classes from the centre.  While the city of London has seen a bit of agro over the years, its transformation from living city to a central business district has kept it relatively peaceful despite the medieval street plan.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> Equally, please tell me the research you have done that shows they are employed and not soley reliant on benefits?
> 
> I am taking a wild stab in the dark based on my knowledge of the area and people in it from my work as a nurse in a North London hospital. I could be totally wrong and if I were to proved wrong I'd hold my hands up. But I don't think I am.
> 
> Also, at no point did I say people were poor because they were black so please do not put words in my mouth.



"59. You must not use your professional status to promote causes that are not related to health"

Recognise this?


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> Bumped as Billie and other posters who have pointed out the racial make up of the rioters seem to have missed it and I'm interested in their answers.



*If they were anarchists and/or UK Uncut protestors would you feel it necessary to point out their racial backgrounds? If not, why not?*

*Billie, good to see you're back, was worried you had been looted by the yoots dem, popping out now but will read your reply when I'm back. x *


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 8, 2011)

Nick Clegg warns of riots if Tories are elected.


----------



## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Guardian is saying the "gun in the sock" info is from a "community organiser"
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns



I believe this interview with Stafford Scott on Sky News yesterday is the source of the sock story

http://news.sky.com/home/video/16045305

The sock is mentioned at about 2m 15s


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Guardian is saying the "gun in the sock" info is from a "community organiser"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Our side" could do without some of the idiots, though. Not that hard to fire a gun whilst it's in a sock, I'd imagine. Might, in fact, be one way of avoiding getting prints on it.


----------



## Dowie (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> Its more likely that either some other officer on the other side of Duggan fired at him (and missed, and hit a colleague - though they would surely have known whether this happened or not by now), or that the round has been mis-identified in the initial forensic tests (there still hasnt been official confirmation as to what it was), or that somehow some MPS ammunition has been lost / stolen / sold on.



Could have been a ricochet too - would perhaps fit the execution on the pavement story - shooting someone against a hard surface at close range...

Shouldn't we be getting a full IPCC report fairly soon? Would be interesting to see their account of things especially with this police bullet in radio thing.

I really don't like the fact that they released very selective facts on this when they clearly pointed towards a story that wasn't true. They'd have known all along that it was a police round from accounts of what happened at the scene but they still released the select facts which indicated and prompted the media to print the story that there had been an exchange of fire.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> I'm not convinced that it is all about physical town planning. Belfast has plenty of estates designed to suppress rioting with features like a single entrance road that makes it easy to control access. Despite this the city experiences more than its fair share of public order incidents. I think London could follow a Paris model simply by excluding the multitude/masses/people/working classes from the centre. While the city of London has seen a bit of agro over the years, its transformation from living city to a central business district has kept it relatively peaceful despite the medieval street plan.


It's most certainly not about own planning, it's about the capital cycle. That's going on outside of the central parts. That's just where the thick rich people live.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

Have the police actually said there was a gun at the scene and it wasn't a police gun because the IPCC were on the scene double quick?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Shouldn't we be getting a full IPCC report fairly soon? Would be interesting to see their account of things especially with this police bullet in radio thing.



Don't hold your breath!


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Firstly, they wouldn't have a clue as to what rounds he was using. Secondly, plod wouldn't have been standing in any line of fire from their own officers. Thirdly, the info being leaked to the Guardian is telling me that they've once again, fucked up.



On your first point - whilst they might not have had a clue what rounds he was using, surely using police rounds to plant evidence is going to be even less likely to mislead someone than using some random round?  You cant argue that they must have planted evidence, and then argue that they couldnt have known what evidence to plant - it makes no sense.  Secondly, please note that most reports state the car was surrounded by armed officers, someone is going to be in the line of fire of someone on the other side, and accidents like this do happen.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Firstly, they wouldn't have a clue as to what rounds/firearm he was using.



No, but they'd be pretty fucking stupid to plant a round of police issue ammo, in a radio that they were going to say was shot by the suspect!


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Could have been a ricochet too - would perhaps fit the execution on the pavement story - shooting someone against a hard surface at close range...
> 
> Shouldn't we be getting a full IPCC report fairly soon? Would be interesting to see their account of things especially with this police bullet in radio thing.
> 
> I really don't like the fact that they released very selective facts on this when they clearly pointed towards a story that wasn't true. They'd have known all along that it was a police round from accounts of what happened at the scene but they still released the select facts which indicated and prompted the media to print the story that there had been an exchange of fire.



The latest IPCC report states that they should know (and release) more about the ballistic evidence within 24 hours.

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_080811_markduggan.aspx


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> either way, do you come out with this sort of spiteful, hateful shit in front of your colleagues, or the patients.
> I'll bet you don't



colleagues? oh yes, we always talk about the idiots we have to treat.
patients? no, but equally i also don't tell them i fudd myself at night.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> She is not a nurse. Nor a she.


I hope to god you are right, poor old N15 and N17 have enough on their plate without someone with as much hate in them caring for their ill


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, you've put your finger on it there aj.



like it


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> colleagues? oh yes, we always talk about the idiots we have to treat.
> patients? no, but equally i also don't tell them i fudd myself at night.


Do you tell your work mates about your de-evolution theories? If not, why not?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> No, but they'd be pretty fucking stupid to plant a round of police issue ammo, in a radio that they were going to say was shot by the suspect!



I wouldn't be surprised if they had of done. The IPCC sweep it under the carpet, which they do so well.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> "Our side" could do without some of the idiots, though. Not that hard to fire a gun whilst it's in a sock, I'd imagine. Might, in fact, be one way of avoiding getting prints on it.



Indeed.

(thx to Cybertect also).


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> Not in the slightest. If the assumption that nice areas are nice because the people that live there make it so then surely it has to logically follow that bad areas are bad because the people that live there make it so, and either way, people have the power to turn round their areas if they put their mind to it.


absolute bollocks, and tory bollocks at that. Poverty, deprivation, social exclusion and other wider social and economic factors are the critical ones


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 8, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> Nick Clegg warns of riots if Tories are elected.



oops.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 8, 2011)

there was a talking head ex copper saying the the ippc doing their job takes time .
 Its not CSI they can't wrap it up in an hour and a handgun round hitting a radio may or may not be identifiable especially if its a hollow point.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> The latest IPCC report states that they should know (and release) more about the ballistic evidence within 24 hours.
> 
> http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_080811_markduggan.aspx



One to watch.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

A nurse *dependent* on the welfare state attacking the welfare state. What a double mug.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

likesfish said:


> there was a talking head ex copper saying the the ippc doing their job takes time



If they ever do it all.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Do you tell your work mates about your de-evolution theories? If not, why not?



absolutely. the amount of scum who come through our doors is amazing and provides ample evidence for my theory.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I hope to god you are right, poor old N15 and N17 have enough on their plate without someone with as much hate in them caring for their ill



n15 and n17 are both safe from my clutches. i now merely help those with terminal illnesses have a safe and comfortable journey to wherever they are heading next. my a&e days are over.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if they had of done. The IPCC sweep it under the carpet, which they do so well.



But given how relatively easy it would be for these bent, homicidal coppers to save the IPCC the trouble and just plant a more suitable round in the radio, don't you think they'd do it, rather than just hoying in a round from an MP5 and hoping for the best with the IPCC?

I think you might be getting a little bit carried away with this one, Bishta.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> btw: el Pais has this as racial, interested to hear any other foreign language coverage


_Suddeutsche Zeitung_ says (rough translation):
"Why did the Tottenham situation escalate?

It started with a mysterious death on the evening of 4th August of Tottenham man Mark Duggan from a police bullet, the exact circumstances are still unclear.​ August died on Tottenham Mark Duggan by a police bullet, the circumstances surrounding the incident are still unclear. Two days later, on Saturday afternoon, the Duggan family and friends gathered outside the local police station. More than 100 protesters demanded justice as Duggan's fiancee demanded answers from the authorities - without success

Actually, the protesters gather at 5pm were planning to protest for an hour long silence and stop the event before the onset of darkness.  BHowever, the wished-for interview with a police officer did not materialize and protesters therefore remained in protest at the front of the police station.

 It has been argued that representatives of local groups should have warned the authorities of the charged atmosphere, where "criminal elements" had taken over the demonstration according to the police. The conflict ended in an orgy violences, pictures of which have been broadcast around the world.

Hooligans are said to have come from outside the area, and trouble flared in three neighbouring districts as well as in Brixton in south London all problem areas. As there had already been a build up of social tension, Duggan's death appears to have been the last straw.

In the early hours of Monday young people were still clashing with police. Scotland Yard says that they agreed where to meet on the internet, and to set fire to cars, homes and businesses. The officials say they were shocked by the extent of the violence. More than 100 rioters were arrested. Nine police officers are injured."

Not a brilliant translation, but a little bit better than Google-Translate.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> absolutely. the amount of scum who come through our doors is amazing and provides ample evidence for my theory.



This evidence - it's empirical? It supports your case materially. Let's see it then. This ample evidence.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> _<<>>_


 
Cheers VP. Appreciated.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

Anyone calling it the 'London Spring' yet....

This time next year the Olympics would have started.... is it too late to suggest some new events?


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> This evidence - it's empirical? It supports your case materially. Let's see it then. This ample evidence.



you attempt to clutch at straws is very amusing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> a slap on the wrist?


If you were lucky, 24 hours of torment in the guard-house.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> I think you might be getting a little bit carried away with this one, Bishta.



Plod cover ups in cases like this seem to be so predictable.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> Fair enough, but if my generalising is bollocks what about Streathamite's post #1410 on page 47 of this thread? He says:
> 
> _"You are utterly, totally wrong, and it shows your stunning ignorance of this area (as well as your utterly worthless Tory politics)._​_Tottenham has some of the poorest neighbourhoods in the country. To grow up here is to grow up without hope, without jobs or prosperity, in a community scarred by crime, drugs,gangs and despair, with a blatantly racist, brutal local OB, into disfunctional, impoverished families, with a feeling that gets stronger every day that no-one gives a shit about you, and that this society offers you nothing._​_Sooner or later, that social pressure creates a breaking point - and this was it."_​
> He is saying basically the same as me, why is my view bollocks and his isn't?​


I will admit, I went OTT, because I care passionately about the place. It's not that bad, and there is some fantastic community organising happening in the place from groups such as HAPS (until recently, I was a member, when I worked in Wood green), and the truly excellent HSG (not to mention the utterly irrepressible Mcdonald's 2!)  but the broad brush strokes are correct.
Tottenham's key problems are poverty, deprivation and a lack of opportunities for the youth. Plus, the council has slashed 75% of youth services budget - so the kids have even less to do.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> you attempt to clutch at straws is very amusing.


Laugh long and laugh well then billie - let's see the 'ample evidence'. Give us something.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

Or ample cleavage, I'm not fussed.


----------



## Tankus (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> there are a number of influences on tottenham, _which i will then contrast_ with the influences on kensington and chelsea. the people who live in tottenham generally have_ very little power, wealth, authority or influence. ...... and educational opportunities_ ...yadda yadda etc....
> an area's population plays a part in determining if an area's 'good' or 'bad', but there are other actors and factors at play too.



yeah ...labour voters through and through ..._non aspirational_ ...and keep them that way ..to keep on returning labour MP's and Councillor's , if your in politics in that area ...why would you want change ?..might cost you your secure job and greasy slide up the political pole of self gratification with gold plated benefits .....

Maybe Billy Bragg could write a song .....!


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> absolutely. the amount of scum who come through our doors is amazing and provides ample evidence for my theory.



Yes, but let's discount the staff entrance - your colleagues can't all be like you, surely?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> n15 and n17 are both safe from my clutches. i now merely help those with terminal illnesses have a safe and comfortable journey to wherever they are heading next. my a&e days are over.



Palliative care in a N.London hospital?

We may well have some mutual friends.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> Fair enough, but if my generalising is bollocks what about Streathamite's post #1410 on page 47 of this thread? He says:
> 
> _"You are utterly, totally wrong, and it shows your stunning ignorance of this area (as well as your utterly worthless Tory politics)._​_Tottenham has some of the poorest neighbourhoods in the country. To grow up here is to grow up without hope, without jobs or prosperity, in a community scarred by crime, drugs,gangs and despair, with a blatantly racist, brutal local OB, into disfunctional, impoverished families, with a feeling that gets stronger every day that no-one gives a shit about you, and that this society offers you nothing._​_Sooner or later, that social pressure creates a breaking point - and this was it."_​
> He is saying basically the same as me, why is my view bollocks and his isn't?​



Perhaps because it isn't "basically the same" at all.

Here's what you said:

"I hear what you are saying, and if I had grown up on some sink estate the product of dysfunctional parents, had not achieved anything educationally and all that I aspired to was hanging round on street corners, mugging teenagers for their mobiles and wishing I could be a drug lord, then yes I may well think that riot, looting and arson was the answer.

 But we all know it's not don't we"

Notice how Streathamite doesn't say anything about aspiration and wishing? You decided to generalise those aspirations and wishes across the entirety of those involved.

Be a _mensch_, eh?


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Laugh long and laugh well then billie - let's see the 'ample evidence'. Give us something.



what evidence are you looking for? i must have seen 10,00s of people in my time as a nurse and have based my opinion of various groups on my interactions with them.

should i now start a spreadsheet of different types of people i meet so i can present it to professor apron?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> what evidence are you looking for? i must have seen 10,00s of people in my time as a nurse and have based my opinion of various groups on my interactions with them.
> 
> should i now start a spreadsheet of different types of people i meet so i can present it to professor apron?


Some sort of evidence as to your theory of de-evolution.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> Yes, but let's discount the staff entrance - your colleagues can't all be like you, surely?



i find it quite amazing that i am being jumped upon for daring to suggest that people invovled in knife crime are scum.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> n15 and n17 are both safe from my clutches. i now merely help those with terminal illnesses have a safe and comfortable journey to wherever they are heading next. my a&e days are over.


I feel profoundly sorry for anyone who has anyone as full of bile as you, 'caring' for them in their last days


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> i find it quite amazing that i am being jumped upon for daring to suggest that people invovled in knife crime are scum.


You're not.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> She is not a nurse. Nor a she.



*Yawn*.  Why do people on Urban do this?  I got accused of not being female when I dared to disagree with the nodding dogs!

Very odd.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Moving on.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> "59. You must not use your professional status to promote causes that are not related to health"
> 
> Recognise this?


bloody well done, blagsta!


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 8, 2011)

ElizabethofYork said:


> *Yawn*. Why do people on Urban do this? I got accused of not being female when I dared to disagree with the nodding dogs!
> 
> Very odd.


I dunno it is very odd. Seem to recall it happening to other posters as well (inc me!)


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Some sort of evidence as to your theory of de-evolution.



when you treat patients who have weeks to live, you have a very close interaction with their family and friends.

every day i deal with people who don't have jobs, are criminals, have no respect for their own community let alone anyone else's, who think the world owes them something and who abuse one the best things the uk has; the nhs. i see people who, compared to my parent's generation, have lost any desire to even work let alone try and better themselves. people who's main aim in life is to have respect from fellow gang members, and respect means flash cars, plasma tvs and doing as little as possible to get them, ie drug dealing and stealing.

i will hold my hands up and say that in my role i probably witness a disproportionate amount of the wasters and maybe that has made me biased/blinkered/racist/whoknows.

don't believe what i am saying? if you want to see this "evidence" with your own eyes, volunteer at a hospital.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 8, 2011)

Reports of shops closing down in Hackney (Stoke Newington, Narroway, Dalston), Stratford, Edmonton, Haringey, Walthamstow (Wood Street). Others?

No actual trouble though, as far as I can tell? Some sort of twitter/BB hysteria?

EDIT: Forest Gate.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Plod cover ups in cases like this seem to be so predictable.



I just think that if they were going to do it, they'd be better at it than you're giving them credit for!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> when you treat patients who have weeks to live, you have a very close interaction with their family and friends.
> 
> every day i deal with people who don't have jobs, are criminals, have no respect for their own community let alone anyone else's, who think the world owes them something and who abuse one the best things the uk has; the nhs. i see people who, compared to my parent's generation, have lost any desire to even work let alone try and better themselves. people who's main aim in life is to have respect from fellow gang members, and respect means flash cars, plasma tvs and doing as little as possible to get them, ie drug dealing and stealing.
> 
> ...


wtf are you wittering about? Are hospital beds clogged up with gang members taking a couple of weeks' time out from their thievery as they blag yet another unnecessary operation from the good old gullible nhs?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> when you treat patients who have weeks to live, you have a very close interaction with their family and friends.
> 
> every day i deal with people who don't have jobs, are criminals, have no respect for their own community let alone anyone else's, who think the world owes them something and who abuse one the best things the uk has; the nhs. i see people who, compared to my parent's generation, have lost any desire to even work let alone try and better themselves. people who's main aim in life is to have respect from fellow gang members, and respect means flash cars, plasma tvs and doing as little as possible to get them, ie drug dealing and stealing.
> 
> ...



So fuck all evidence plus emotive whining. Still waiting nurse.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> "59. You must not use your professional status to promote causes that are not related to health"
> 
> Recognise this?



indeed i do. your point?


----------



## likesfish (Aug 8, 2011)

I can well imagine any A&E nurse having a rather jaundiced view of A&Es frequent customers at the weekend ever had the misfortune to spend time at an A&E at the weekend? full of people worst the wear from drink and or drugs behaving really  really badly and treating staff who are trying to help them disgustingly.
 there should be an NHS police force armed and equipped with  dogs 
  there were allegedly Argentine .45s knocking about ulster as throw downs in case a dead Provo turned out not to be armed probably an urban myth though.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> So fuck all evidence plus emotive whining. Still waiting nurse.



yeah, no evidence at all. other than everything i've witnessed.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> I dunno it is very odd. Seem to recall it happening to other posters as well (inc me!)


well yeah, but yours is a different case as it involves a certain ex-poster


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 8, 2011)

Maybe spoke too soon. Two people on twitter saying there are clashes with the police in Hackney Central/ by the town hall.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> bloody well done, blagsta!


As it happens, I'm revising the NMC code of conduct today.


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> if you want to see this "evidence" with your own eyes, volunteer at a hospital.



how about you volunteer at a youth club in tottenham to see how full of shit you are?

oh no, you cant.  Because they've shut them all.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> when you treat patients who have weeks to live, you have a very close interaction with their family and friends.
> 
> every day i deal with people who don't have jobs, are criminals, have no respect for their own community let alone anyone else's, who think the world owes them something and who abuse one the best things the uk has; the nhs. i see people who, compared to my parent's generation, have lost any desire to even work let alone try and better themselves. people who's main aim in life is to have respect from fellow gang members, and respect means flash cars, plasma tvs and doing as little as possible to get them, ie drug dealing and stealing.
> 
> ...


I suggest you require more and better supervision.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> indeed i do. your point?



Maybe you need to re-read it.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

> i will hold my hands up and say that in my role i probably witness a disproportionate amount of the wasters and maybe that has made me biased/blinkered/racist/whoknows.



You might, I reckon people like me see more of it. You see the end of it.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps because it isn't "basically the same" at all.
> 
> Notice how Streathamite doesn't say anything about aspiration and wishing? You decided to generalise those aspirations and wishes across the entirety of those involved.
> 
> Be a _mensch_, eh?



Seems to me that there are is an awful lot of generalisation going on in this thread! Those of you who seem to be apologists for the rioters trot out any old nonsense to try and explain away what is just basic criminality! You seem to be saying that everybody brought up in deprived circumstances will go on to be a failure in life, and that the acts of riot arson and wanton destruction are inevitable by-products of their dysfunctional lives.

But that's just not true is it? Most people don't behave like the idiot yobs we have witnessed over the last couple of nights, most people are basically good law-abiding citizens who just want a peaceful life.

What we are witnessing is the criminal minority who think it's cool to attack the police and smash stuff up, without a thought for their neighbours and their community.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> So fuck all evidence plus emotive whining. Still waiting nurse.



To be fair to Billie, most casualty staff that I've known have had similar views.


----------



## spitfire (Aug 8, 2011)

police copter has just arrived over mare street. I'm in Bethnal Green and there have been constant sirens for about an hour now. Haven't seen anything as i am staying put in  my front room.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Maybe you need to re-read it.



if you think having an opinion and promoting a cause are the same, you are mental.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> yeah, no evidence at all. other than everything i've witnessed.


Just to get this straight, you are talking about people needing medical attention for injuries incurred while fighting perhaps, while drunk, or whatever. In other words, you're passing moral judgement on them for the way they have incurred their injuries and accusing them of abusing the nhs because they need treatment?

They may be abusing each other, but they're not abusing the nhs. That's idiotic.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> To be fair to Billie, most casualty staff that I've known have had similar views.



no, you are wrong because apparently having a view on the patients you treat is "using professional status to promote causes that are not related to health".

what a load of horse shit.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> if you think having an opinion and promoting a cause are the same, you are mental.


You sound desperate.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> no, you are wrong because apparently having a view on the patients you treat is "using professional status to promote causes that are not related to health".
> 
> what a load of horse shit.



That's not all you've done is it.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> you attempt to clutch at straws is very amusing.



Yes, _he's_ the one clutching at straws.


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> To be fair to Billie, most casualty staff that I've known have had similar views.



Not a lot going for them then, nurses. These days, they've even made the uniform pretty poor wank material.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> no, you are wrong because apparently having a view on the patients you treat is "using professional status to promote causes that are not related to health".
> 
> what a load of horse shit.


 If they require treatment, how are they abusing the nhs, please?


----------



## spitfire (Aug 8, 2011)

actually it may have been the beebs chopper, it's on the telly now.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Just to get this straight, you are talking about people needing medical attention for injuries incurred while fighting perhaps, while drunk, or whatever. In other words, you're passing moral judgement on them for the way they have incurred their injuries and accusing them of abusing the nhs because they need treatment?
> 
> They may be abusing each other, but they're not abusing the nhs. That's idiotic.



You are putting words in my mouth. i never said they are abusing the nhs merely because they need treatment.

regardless of how someone is presented at a&e/cancer ward/wherever, they will get the best treatment they need. i don't think it's wrong for me to make a judgement on how they got there as long as it doesn't affect how they are treated. i may giggle at child who got his head stuck in railings and i may dispair at the teenage who has been shot but how i treat them will not change.

when i talk of people abusing the nhs, i'm talking about people who miss appointments consistently, who steal equipment, who steal from other patients, who lie to get blue badges, who beat up our staff etc. you can require treatment AND abuse the nhs.


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If they require treatment, how are they abusing the nhs, please?



Not to get involved in this spat, but it is sadly quite common for people to both require treatment and to abuse the nhs (specifically, the staff) whilst they are being treated.


----------



## magneze (Aug 8, 2011)

Live pics on BBC News of people trashing a police car in Hackney.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> That's not all you've done is it.



no, you are right. i've also had an opinion on where some of these people live. if you think that is promoting a cause, i say again you are mental.


----------



## spitfire (Aug 8, 2011)

police car getting smashed up under the railway bridge in Hackney central for those with no access to the tv.


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> You are putting words in my mouth. i never said they are abusing the nhs merely because they need treatment.
> 
> regardless of how someone is presented at a&e/cancer ward/wherever, they will get the best treatment they need. i don't think it's wrong for me to make a judgement on how they got there as long as it doesn't affect how they are treated. i may giggle at child who got his head stuck in railings and i may dispair at the teenage who has been shot but how i treat them will not change.
> 
> when i talk of people abusing the nhs, i'm talking about people who miss appointments consistently, who steal equipment, who steal from other patients, who lie to get blue badges, who beat up our staff etc. you can require treatment AND abuse the nhs.



When did the NHS start to issue blue badges, billie?


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 8, 2011)

Live footage of it kicking off in Hackney now.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 8, 2011)

https://twitter.com/#!/jessbrammar

ITV reporter. Cop car being kicked in near Hackney Town hall.


----------



## Teepee (Aug 8, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If they require treatment, how are they abusing the nhs, please?


Have you ever been in A+E? I've worked in one. People are abusive all the fucking time. Nurses and doctors get verbal abuse, racism, punched, kicked and spat at. Regularly. If that's not abusing the NHS I don't know what is. People need to back off Billie Piper. Anyone commenting in this thread who hasn't worked in A+E on a weekend needs to shut the fuck up


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Just to get this straight, you are talking about people needing medical attention for injuries incurred while fighting perhaps, while drunk, or whatever. In other words, you're passing moral judgement on them for the way they have incurred their injuries and accusing them of abusing the nhs because they need treatment?



What's wrong with that?

If you had to treat pissheads and yobs every day and all the thanks you got was getting puked on or punched, you'd develop similar views.

So long as it doesn't affect the way she treats them, she's entitled to those views. I'd probably share them.

I don't think I know anyone who's been through casualty that would disagree with her.


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Live footage of it kicking off in Hackney now.



Where?


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> Have you ever been in A+E? I've worked in one. People are abusive all the fucking time. Nurses and doctors get verbal abuse, racism, punched, kicked and spat at. Regularly. If that's not abusing the NHS I don't know what is. People need to back off Billie Piper. Anyone commenting in this thread who hasn't worked in A+E on a weekend needs to shut the fuck up



Fuck off.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> Not to get involved in this spat, but it is sadly quite common for people to both require treatment and to abuse the nhs (specifically, the staff) whilst they are being treated.


Yes, very true - abusing the nhs staff while receiving treatment certainly happens, from drunk people mostly, many of whom will have jobs and not be involved in this rioting at all. That's not 'abusing the nhs', though, is it.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> When did the NHS start to issue blue badges, billie?



they don't issue them but the declaration of someone being declared disabled is nearly always made by a doctor.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> Where?



Right by Hackney Central BR


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

So if there's any lying involved, it's the doctor doing it. Or are you saying that doctors are mugs, taken in by whatever cock and bull the patient tells them about their gammy leg? How many of these dodgy blue badge holders are there then, in your estimation ( a percentage figure will do).


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

belboid said:


> how about you volunteer at a youth club in tottenham to see how full of shit you are?
> 
> oh no, you cant. Because they've shut them all.


yep - the budget for youth services has been cut by 75% due to the condems (this once, it's not LB Haringey's fault, useless bastards though they are, and the councillors really hated having to do this) - and they wonder why the youth have taken to the streets.
I could weep.


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Right by Hackney Central BR



Yes - your post said Hackney, so I fucking gathered that, you plum. * Where* is the live footage - i.e. what channel?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> no, you are right. i've also had an opinion on where some of these people live. if you think that is promoting a cause, i say again you are mental.



Anyway, can  we have this incontrovertible evidence of reverse evolution or whatever the fuck it was now please?


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> Yes - your post said Hackney, so I fucking gathered that, you plum. * Where* is the live footage - i.e. what channel?



BBC News 24


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> So if there's any lying involved, it's the doctor doing it. Or are you saying that doctors are mugs, taken in by whatever cock and bull the patient tells them about their gammy leg? How many of these dodgy blue badge holders are there then, in your estimation ( a percentage figure will do).



it's not that widespread. my guess would be less than 5% of holders, maybe even lower.

will give you an example; a cancer patient who applied knowing he would die within weeks but his son and wife could carry on using it for the year.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 8, 2011)

its kicking off again at the moment on bbc news looks like people want another crack tonight


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 8, 2011)

Hackney footage http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10318089


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> will give you an example; a cancer patient who applied knowing he would die within weeks but his son and wife could carry on using it for the year.



How terrible.... He should have got 25 to life.


----------



## xes (Aug 8, 2011)

with the reports of it kicking off all over the place. Could this be a case of divide and conquor? Split the police up into as many groups as possible, hoping to make them unable to control any unrest?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 8, 2011)

looks like some looting of a furniture store, getting ammo?

EDIT: was chairs etc from a cafe.


----------



## Sue (Aug 8, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Right by Hackney Central BR



Heliopter right above the town hall, another over the park. Large group of kids just ran past at full pelt followed by a police car. Might have to head out and have a look.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> will give you an example; a cancer patient who applied knowing he would die within weeks but his son and wife could carry on using it for the year.



And you get angry over that? The family of a deceased cancer victim using his badge for a few months after he's dead? You're a pathetic, empty vessel with no humanity whatsoever.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 8, 2011)

Sue said:


> Heliopter right above the town hall, another over the park. Large group of kids just ran past at full pelt followed by a police car. Might have to head out and have a look.



Ladbrokes getting a doing at the moment.


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> How terrible.... He should have got 25 to life.



of course he shouldn't. but he's wasted the doctor's time.


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> it's not that widespread. my guess would be less than 5% of holders, maybe even lower.
> 
> will give you an example; a cancer patient who applied knowing he would die within weeks but his son and wife could carry on using it for the year.


well, that isn't '[lying] to get a blue badge' which is what you claimed before.  One might almost suspect you are making it up as you go along


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> And you get angry over that? The family of a deceased cancer victim using his badge for a few months after he's dead? You're a pathetic, empty vessel with no humanity whatsoever.



you know nothing about me. you assume doctors have an infinite amount of time; they don't. my husband died but he didn't have cancer; what should i get? a free bus pass?


----------



## likesfish (Aug 8, 2011)

a shops just had its  windows smashed and people leaving with chair legs etc planning to have ago at the cops ladbrookes window smashed as well


----------



## roctrevezel (Aug 8, 2011)

spitfire said:


> police car getting smashed up under the railway bridge in Hackney central for those with no access to the tv.


 
They are trying to smash the windows of a betting shop at the moment. (That will go down well with their fathers and grandfathers.)


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> of course he shouldn't. but he's wasted the doctor's time.



How has he wasted a doctors time? He was entitled to the card, the doctor simply di what he/she was required to do. I would guess the doctor knew he didn't have long to live. I suggest you get some sense of perspective if that is evidence of what makes you angry/upset.


----------



## magneze (Aug 8, 2011)

xes said:


> with the reports of it kicking off all over the place. Could this be a case of divide and conquor? Split the police up into as many groups as possible, hoping to make them unable to control any unrest?


That seems likely tbh. How many areas can the police police??


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Hackney footage http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10318089



Ty....

Mr _it: "People don't know how to riot properly in England, they need to learn how to fuck shit up properly"


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> it's not that widespread. my guess would be less than 5% of holders, maybe even lower.
> 
> will give you an example; a cancer patient who applied knowing he would die within weeks but his son and wife could carry on using it for the year.



The man's fucking dying - how on earth is that pulling a fast one? The rules allow the deceased's spouse to continue using the blue badge for the remainder of the year - so they're just taking advantage of those rules. Big deal. Any better examples?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 8, 2011)

http://ishackneyriotingyet.com/


----------



## xes (Aug 8, 2011)

police are just sitting at the other end of the street? There's not even than many people there, why don't they go and stop it 

maybe this is their response to the cuts. "you cut us, so response times will suffer"


----------



## TopCat (Aug 8, 2011)

roctrevezel said:


> They are trying to smash the windows of a betting shop at the moment. (That will go down well with their fathers and grandfathers.)


Too many betting shops.


----------



## TitanSound (Aug 8, 2011)

likesfish said:


> a shops just had its windows smashed and people leaving with chair legs etc planning to have ago at the cops ladbrookes window smashed as well



The Ladbrookes attempt was pretty lame though. They gave up far to early. Bloody kiddie rioters these days.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 8, 2011)

Croydon very tense. Off for a look.


----------



## Teepee (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> Fuck off.


You fuck off. Volunteer in A+E, and see how long you last, internet hardman.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> it's not that widespread. my guess would be less than 5% of holders, maybe even lower.
> 
> will give you an example; a cancer patient who applied *knowing he would die within weeks* but his son and wife could carry on using it for the year.


Selfish dying cunt.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> you know nothing about me. you assume doctors have an infinite amount of time; they don't. my husband died but he didn't have cancer; what should i get? a free bus pass?


I am unemployed but I can't sign on as I don't have a local address I can use. I apply for about 50 jobs per day. I can't get benefit, so no one else should?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> you know nothing about me. you assume doctors have an infinite amount of time; they don't. my husband died but he didn't have cancer; what should i get? a free bus pass?



It's even worse than I thought - you're _jealous!_


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

likesfish said:


> a shops just had its windows smashed and people leaving with chair legs etc planning to have ago at the cops ladbrookes window smashed as well



They want to watch the chair leg thing, considering where they are...


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Selfish dying cunt.



not as selfish as the people who take up disabled parking spaces when they don't need to.


----------



## Daniel (Aug 8, 2011)

No way am I covering callouts in Hackney tonight, fuck that!


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> you know nothing about me. you assume doctors have an infinite amount of time; they don't. my husband died but he didn't have cancer; what should i get? a free bus pass?


you are a pathetic failure of a human being


----------



## Dan U (Aug 8, 2011)

wow, emptying out the back of a lorry for ammo now in hackney. loads of wood


----------



## mack (Aug 8, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Croydon very tense. Off for a look.


Croydons always bloody tense!


----------



## madzone (Aug 8, 2011)

Dan U said:


> wow, emptying out the back of a lorry for ammo now in hackney. loads of wood



Oh, is that why they're doing it? I did wonder


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

belboid said:


> you are a pathetic failure of a human being



absolutely, i didn't have the foresight to apply for a disabled badge in the name of my husband before he passed on.


----------



## madzone (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> absolutely, i didn't have the foresight to apply for a disabled badge in the name of my husband before he passed on.


Fuck off, troll


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> absolutely, i didn't have the foresight to apply for a disabled badge in the name of my husband before he passed on.


Someone dies, and all you can do is whinge about parking.


----------



## Dan U (Aug 8, 2011)

smashing up buses now. BBC reporter on phone sounds terrified


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> no, you are right. i've also had an opinion on where some of these people live. if you think that is promoting a cause, i say again you are mental.



Dishonest too.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

I think Madzone's got this one nailed to be honest, I refuse to believe anyone's this pig ignorant and unpleasant in real life.


----------



## Stay Beautiful (Aug 8, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Too many betting shops.



Aye, Bruce Grove had become infested with them. Leeching bastards.


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> You fuck off. Volunteer in A+E, and see how long you last, internet hardman.



Read the fucking thread before giving it large you mug. She works in A+E - big fucking deal. She was getting pulled not for suggesting that some people abuse NHS staff, butfor a load of bigoted shite posted earlier in the thread. By your logic, having to deal with crims every day excuses all manner of bigotry in plod, too.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 8, 2011)

Down by the Hackney Empire now. Careful not to incur the wrath of Benjamin Zephaniah, kids!


----------



## Sue (Aug 8, 2011)

Just watching the footage. Mare St closed just past the Empire. Bus just got attacked.


----------



## Sue (Aug 8, 2011)

Maybe now isn't the best time to take my books back to the library...


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> By your logic, having to deal with crims every day excuses all manner of bigotry in plod, too.



Don't know if it excuses it, but it certainly goes some way to _explaining_ it, no?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> Seems to me that there are is an awful lot of generalisation going on in this thread! Those of you who seem to be apologists for the rioters trot out any old nonsense to try and explain away what is just basic criminality! You seem to be saying that everybody brought up in deprived circumstances will go on to be a failure in life, and that the acts of riot arson and wanton destruction are inevitable by-products of their dysfunctional lives.



Nope, I'm not saying that, seemingly or otherwise. I'm saying (in opposition to your claims about people aspiring to hang out on street corners and wishing to become "drug lords") that the opposite is true *in spite of* the circumstances. Most of the local rude-boy youth around here might brag to their mates about how "gangsta" they are, and they may even, heaven forfend, hang out on street corners, but many aspire to more, and to legitimacy.



> But that's just not true is it? Most people don't behave like the idiot yobs we have witnessed over the last couple of nights, most people are basically good law-abiding citizens who just want a peaceful life.



Actually, we  know that "most people" abide by laws if there's a significant chance of them getting caught breaking them. Humans are acquisitive. We wear the veneer of civilisation because, on balance, it benefits us to do so, not because we're "good".



> What we are witnessing is the criminal minority who think it's cool to attack the police and smash stuff up, without a thought for their neighbours and their community.



And you know this how? Exactly what mechanism are you using that allows you to define what people thinking (or not)? You're projecting.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> Seems to me that there are is an awful lot of generalisation going on in this thread! Those of you who seem to be apologists for the rioters trot out any old nonsense to try and explain away what is just basic criminality!  .


WHO is doing this, precisely? I am_ certainly_ not doing this; I am simply saying that you cannot remove the social and economic context of Tottenham's huge problems, or police racism and harassment from the situation - or else you end up with the POV that the residents of Kensington are simply morally superior to the youth of Tottenham



> You seem to be saying that everybody brought up in deprived circumstances will go on to be a failure in life, and that the acts of riot arson and wanton destruction are inevitable by-products of their dysfunctional lives.


FFS! do you have a comprehension problem? No-one is saying this, simply that its' far harder to break that cycle, then it is to go on and get ahead, and lead a productive, law-abiding life, if you have all of life's advantages.


> that's just not true is it? Most people don't behave like the idiot yobs we have witnessed over the last couple of nights, most people are basically good law-abiding citizens who just want a peaceful life.


Yes they are - but you don't riot if you have a good job, a nice home to come home to, and the feeling that there is something in this society for you


> What we are witnessing is the criminal minority who think it's cool to attack the police and smash stuff up, without a thought for their neighbours and their community


That is PART of the truth - but only part. Yes a lot of the rioters are simply mindless hooligans, but there IS also people taking out their resentment at allk the things I've mentioned, plus this riot is an almost-inevitable consequence of thrusting a consumer society down the throats of people who will never earn enough to fully enjoyits' fruits.
VP) was right - your thinking on this is incredibly simplistic.
Life ain't like that - not in tottemham, not anywhere


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Don't know if it excuses it, but it certainly goes some way to _explaining_ it, no?



No.

I've known various people who worked in A&E too. None of them shared 'her' bigotry.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

belboid said:


> Someone dies, and all you can do is whinge about parking.


She'd fit right in at ATOS http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2011/08/06/debbie-carr-atos-hcp-thinks-clients/

 


belboid said:


> No.
> 
> I've known various people who worked in A&E too. None of them shared 'her' bigotry.


I've worked in A&E, and know people that have...none were bigots.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 8, 2011)

release the honey badgers 
 lets see if those looted trainers really make you run faster


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Don't know if it excuses it, but it certainly goes some way to _explaining_ it, no?



OK - so now we know some of the reasons why she has come out with her bigoted shit. That still leaves the shit to be dealt with.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> When did the NHS start to issue blue badges, billie?


Just about never. It's a local authority matter. The only time the NHS comes into it is if you're one of the minority of badge-holders who doesn't get their badge due to underlying entitlement (i.e. because you receive DLA, SDA or AA) but because their GP has provided evidence (generally results from consultant referrals) of medical need.

Still, I'm sure that's what Billie-boy meant.


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

Sky expressing surprise that young people move quickly and talk on mobiles.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> Have you ever been in A+E? I've worked in one. People are abusive all the fucking time. Nurses and doctors get verbal abuse, racism, punched, kicked and spat at. Regularly. If that's not abusing the NHS I don't know what is. People need to back off Billie Piper. Anyone commenting in this thread who hasn't worked in A+E on a weekend needs to shut the fuck up



Does having worked in A & E make you sacrosanct from criticism, then?

Get away to fuck.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

belboid said:


> No.
> 
> I've known various people who worked in A&E too. None of them shared 'her' bigotry.



A couple of mates down the pub?

What bigotry specifically?

So far I've just seen her bemoaning pissheads and piss-takers. I know dozens of medics who've been through A&E, the vast majority of whom have very similar views.


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 8, 2011)

http://twitter.com/#!/frasereC4/status/100594450102882305

Night three in Hackney


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Don't know if it excuses it, but it certainly goes some way to _explaining_ it, no?


yes, but I hope we're agreed it doesn't make it acceptable


----------



## dylans (Aug 8, 2011)

The thing about a riot is it is, by its nature, a confused mess of motivations. Some people hate the cops and want to have a go. Some people want to express pent up rage at the hopeless situation they are in. Some are anti social and criminal chancers taking an opportunity to get a new lap top. Some are consciously political and want paypack for years of police brutality and economic hopelessness. The important thing is context and we can't ignore the fact that these are occurring at a time of unprecidented class war against the poorest in society and an austerity programme that is making the lives of many people more hopeless and desperate than ever. At the same time as savage economic cuts we also have the example of blatant double standards and corruption at the very top of the political establishment. The whole murdoch fiasco has demonstrated just how corrupt the entire establishment is with the resignation of the top police chiefs and reports of endemic institutional corruption at the met.

These two things come together very neatly here and it only takes a spark,to create an eruption like we are seeing now. It is no coincidence that this began with the police brutalising and killing someone. The 1985 riots also started this way. Cynthia Jarrett anyone? So we have an huge swathe of the population who increasingly have no stake in society. A generation of people for whom the celebrated aspirations of life are dangled in front of them but are increasingly out of reach. People stuck on the dole watching property shows selling dreams they will never have, and presenting middle class success stories that they know they will never live. Is it surprising then that people burn property.Shops full of stuff they are told they must have to be a proper person but no money to buy them. Is it surprising then that people break the windows and nick the stuff they have been told they need? When people are made to believe that society and the aspirations and dreams of society are for someone else, when their day to day lives demonstrate that they are outside in the rain with their faces pressed up against the glass windows as the wealthy and powerful live lives denied to them and even ignore laws applied to them, Is it surprising that they smash the windows? A Riot is an act of collective rage and frustration by those who have been denied a stake in society. It's a collective scream of frustration and anger by people whose voices are ignored. Yes it's messy and contradictory and confused and often ugly. It says "I bet you are listening now?" And they are right. They are listening now


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> they don't issue them but the declaration of someone being declared disabled is nearly always made by a doctor.



And has to be substantiated with actual medical evidence, Billie-boy. The old-fashioned "doctor's letter" doesn't mean shit anymore. That's why the form includes a section where you consent to your medical records being accessed.


----------



## Giles (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> yep - the budget for youth services has been cut by 75% due to the condems (this once, it's not LB Haringey's fault, useless bastards though they are, and the councillors really hated having to do this) - and they wonder why the youth have taken to the streets.
> I could weep.



Oh, right. My local pub closed down as well, and guess what ..... I didn't go out and smash up the local KFC / trainer shop / etc/

Stop making excuses for subhuman scumbags trashing neighbourhoods where people have to live!

Giles..


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

How on earth do you lot get Billie Bullshit to reply?


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> the news is all too often long on allegations and short on proof.


 Bit like one or two posters here


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Oh, right. My local pub closed down as well, and guess what ..... I didn't go out and smash up the local KFC / trainer shop / etc/
> 
> Stop making excuses for subhuman scumbags trashing neighbourhoods where people have to live!
> 
> Giles..



You're comparing youth services to your pub, c'mon Giles you and I know you can do better that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> So if there's any lying involved, it's the doctor doing it. Or are you saying that doctors are mugs, taken in by whatever cock and bull the patient tells them about their gammy leg? How many of these dodgy blue badge holders are there then, in your estimation ( a percentage figure will do).



There's a fuck-load more stolen and counterfeit ones floating around than "dodgy" ones gotten through doctors lying/being coerced into lying.

Same complaint was often vomited up by people about Incapacity Benefit and Disability Living Allowance - That doctors would tell porkies for their patients.

Totally missing the fact that entitlement long-term to those benefits is predicated on some tortuously bastardly medical examinations and access to your medical records.


----------



## Teepee (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Does having worked in A & E make you sacrosanct from criticism, then?
> 
> Get away to fuck.


No it doesn't. But it does make you understand where she's coming from. If you haven't done it, you have no hope of getting it.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Stop making excuses for subhuman scumbags trashing neighbourhoods where people have to live!
> 
> Giles..



The Nazis were fond of referring to certain people as "subhuman". I just thought I'd remind you of that, Mr. High Evolutionary.


----------



## madzone (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> A couple of mates down the pub?
> 
> What bigotry specifically?
> 
> So far I've just seen her bemoaning pissheads and piss-takers. I know dozens of medics who've been through A&E, the vast majority of whom have very similar views.


Dozens is it? How do you know _them_ then?


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> A couple of mates down the pub?
> 
> What bigotry specifically?
> 
> So far I've just seen her bemoaning pissheads and piss-takers. I know dozens of medics who've been through A&E, the vast majority of whom have very similar views.


A&E's on London and Sheffield, doctors, nurses, and a fair few ambulance drivers.  None of them have you the bigotries you share with Billie.  Bigotries which are not restricted to bemoaning pissheads, such as:



Billie Piper said:


> And I saw significantly more black and Asian people doing the looting/rioting.
> 
> This is what happens when instead of giving the man a fishing rod you give him fish and then you stop giving them fish. These are simple people who have lost the ability to function like humans, they have de-evolved into dumb, purposeless cattle and a few predatory wolves. But we are a rich society and the easiest course of action is to lob these creatures some food and shiny things to keep them out of our sight and we must recognise that they will get uppity when you forget to feed them. They are solely dependent like babies.


----------



## madzone (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> No it doesn't. But it does make you understand where she's coming from. If you haven't done it, you have no hope of getting it.


Working in A&E doesn't give people some kind of right to spout ill-informed shit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> How terrible.... He should have got 25 to life.



Or the death sentence...oh wait...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Ladbrokes getting a doing at the moment.



What were the odds, eh?


----------



## TopCat (Aug 8, 2011)

I lurve you rioters, each and every one of you....


----------



## Teepee (Aug 8, 2011)

madzone said:


> Working in A&E doesn't give people some kind of right to spout ill-informed shit.


I've obviously missed something here, what ill-informed shit are people talking about?


----------



## TopCat (Aug 8, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> The Nazis were fond of referring to certain people as "subhuman". I just thought I'd remind you of that, Mr. High Evolutionary.


He means it in the way the nazi's did.


----------



## madzone (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> I've obviously missed something here, what ill-informed shit are people talking about?


The bollocks 'she's' been spouting about blue badges for a start.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

belboid said:


> A&E's on London and Sheffield, doctors, nurses, and a fair few ambulance drivers. None of them have you the bigotries you share with Billie. Bigotries which are not restricted to bemoaning pissheads, such as:


 
I hadn't seen that post of Billies that you quoted.

And I do not share those bigotries.


----------



## Sue (Aug 8, 2011)

Is it kicking off in Dalson? Three police vans just headed that way at great speed from Mare st.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> I've obviously missed something here, what ill-informed shit are people talking about?


Why must you do this? Read the fucking thread.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

TopCat said:


> He means it in the way the nazi's did.



Knowing Giles the way I do, I'm sure he does... the jackbooted fuck.


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> I hadn't seen that post of Billies that you quoted.
> 
> And I do not share those bigotries.


Well, maybe you shouold shut the fuck up unless you do know what you're talking about.


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> I've obviously missed something here, what ill-informed shit are people talking about?



see belboid's post no. 1766


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

The coppers blog takes comments.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Oh, right. My local pub closed down as well, and guess what ..... I didn't go out and smash up the local KFC / trainer shop / etc/
> 
> Stop making excuses for subhuman scumbags trashing neighbourhoods where people have to live!
> 
> Giles..


you are SUCH a CUNT it is UNTRUE!


----------



## Teepee (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> see belboid's post no. 1766



Oh, yeah. I see.


----------



## gawkrodger (Aug 8, 2011)

Lewisham is apparently starting now


----------



## ddraig (Aug 8, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> Lewisham is apparently starting now


at least the pigs will be safe in their stupid fucking fortress there


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

madzone said:


> The bollocks 'she's' been spouting about blue badges for a start.



Always makes me laugh, that one. I know the procedures for blue badges inside out, and the "qualifiers". I've not only been through the process myself, I've helped others apply (successfully, in 4 different local authorities) too, and I know just how picky local authorities can be about evidence of entitlement. If it was down to the say-so of a GP, supermarket car-parks would need to be awash with "disabled spaces".


----------



## likesfish (Aug 8, 2011)

never fear boris is flying back from his hols

expect smacked bottoms an people being sent to bed without supper


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

madzone said:


> Dozens is it? How do you know _them_ then?



Four doctors in the family, two more on the way, friends are: nephrologist, consultants/palliative care, 3 GPs , several hospital doctors, nephew who's an immunologist,  brother in law is an anaesthetist, and of course all the people I've met through them.


----------



## mack (Aug 8, 2011)

A few of the stores in Croydon's Whitgift Centre have closed early, gonna be walking home in a few minutes, fair few police around but all seems quite at the moment.


----------



## madzone (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Four doctors in the family, two more on the way, friends are: nephrologist, consultants/palliative care, 3 GPs , several hospital doctors, nephew who's an immunologist, brother in law is an anaesthetist, and of course all the people I've met through them.


I believe you, Spy. Thousands wouldn't.
_Thousands_.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Oh, right. My local pub closed down as well, and guess what ..... I didn't go out and smash up the local KFC / trainer shop / etc/
> 
> Stop making excuses for subhuman scumbags trashing neighbourhoods where people have to live!
> 
> Giles..


congratulations, you win my Utter Total Prick Of The Year award!
You have ZERO idea of what life is like in Tottenham - or, I'd bet, any inner city w/c neighbourhood. We are NOT scum.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> And you know this how? Exactly what mechanism are you using that allows you to define what people thinking (or not)? You're projecting.



There you go again! I'm projecting but when Streathamite says _"That is PART of the truth - but only part. Yes a lot of the rioters are simply mindless hooligans"  _he's telling the truth? You only have to look at the live footage from the BBC helicopter over Hackney to see what is happening. Ordinary people are being attacked, cars buses and shops are just being destroyed and for what? Nothing that you can say about the disaffection of these idiots justifys these acts of wanton destruction.

I don't think the police get it right all of the time, the Ian Tomlinson episode was a complete disgrace and there is no doubt that some officers are to heavy handed on some occasions, but surely you must agree that these lawless acts cannot be allowed to continue? Whatever issues these youths think they have does not give them carte-blanch to destroy this city!


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Aug 8, 2011)

Why's everyone feeding the troll?


----------



## ddraig (Aug 8, 2011)

Lewisham pic





http://brockleycentral.blogspot.com/2011/08/lewisham-braces-for-rioting.html


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 8, 2011)

likesfish said:


> never fear boris is flying back from his hols
> 
> <snip>



If anyone can turn a few riots into an actual armed insurrection, by means of brayingly arrogant elitist statements to the press then it's Boris.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

belboid said:


> Well, maybe you shouold shut the fuck up unless you do know what you're talking about.



If you took your own advice you'd never post!

Besides, taking the opposite line to you is usually a safe bet.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

@topcat,

no context, no acceptance of what the people in the boroughs think and want, you are a fucking knob, same goes for those on indymedia who call it an uprising, my arse...

btw, how old are you?


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Besides, taking the opposite line to you is usually a safe bet.


If you're a bigotted right-wing cunt, it sure is.


----------



## madzone (Aug 8, 2011)

ooooOOOOOOOoooooo!

Handbags at dawn on this thread


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

roctrevezel said:


> They are trying to smash the windows of a betting shop at the moment. (That will go down well with their fathers and grandfathers.)


actually there's a long-running campaign in Tottenham to limit the number of bookies, there's far too many of them (30)


----------



## Dowie (Aug 8, 2011)

hmmm - things brewing round my area now it seems... Kids moving from Lewisham towards Catford...


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Stay Beautiful said:


> Aye, Bruce Grove had become infested with them. Leeching bastards.


So join the damn campaign! HAPS will direect you to it


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

btw, I posted up an article from the Guardian a week ago which predicted all this, I still think the people who are more politically aware and aggrieved are biding their time and seeing how things pan out, there are no young Bernie grants, Darcus Howes amongst these looters, yet....


----------



## pinkychukkles (Aug 8, 2011)

Is there any evidence at all that the actions of the 'youths' rioting/looting is being directed via phone/on the ground by 'older men'?
I haven't seen anything to suggest that at all.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

belboid said:


> If you're a bigotted right-wing cunt, it sure is.



Now now, Bellend, language!

Uppity little "lefty" today aren't you? Your woolly undies chaffing again?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> there are no young Bernie grants, Darcus Howes amongst these looters, yet....


how do you know that, espesh as you're hundreds of miles away in Yorkshire?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> btw, I posted up an article from the Guardian a week ago which predicted all this, I still think the people who are more politically aware and aggrieved are biding their time and seeing how things pan out, there are no young Bernie grants, Darcus Howes amongst these looters, yet....


You've spent all day say it wasn't political. Time to just shut up and listen TL.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> btw, I posted up an article from the Guardian a week ago which predicted all this, I still think the people who are more politically aware and aggrieved are biding their time and seeing how things pan out, there are no young Bernie grants, Darcus Howes amongst these looters, yet....



Yeah, but how do you know they're all black?


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 8, 2011)

Just been to High Barnet, every shop is shut, shutters down, plod everywhere. Tesco Express is shut!! And when I went to the chemist it was 'one in one out' with the door locked. Fucking pathetic!

I went to the bank that usually shuts at 5, but at 4 it was closed and shuttered with a sign saying "due to circumstances we are closed" - wtf?? rather than "just for fucking shits and giggles we're closed, now fuck off"

Cunts.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

madzone said:


> ooooOOOOOOOoooooo!
> 
> Handbags at dawn on this thread



No. It's just Bellend playing to the gallery. He's ok. He usually PM's me after to apologise and make up!


----------



## madzone (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> No. It's just Bellend playing to the gallery. He's ok. He usually PM's me after to apologise and make up!



Will there be any pictures of you making up?


----------



## Sue (Aug 8, 2011)

Lots of smoke other side of the park. Something's gone up.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

It's a car


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> No. It's just Bellend playing to the gallery. He's ok. He usually PM's me after to apologise and make up!


I dont believe I have ever PM'd you. I couldnt give a toss about your opinion, so have never had any reason to apologise.


----------



## Sue (Aug 8, 2011)

Whereabouts? Mentmore Terrace or one of the roads behind I'd guess.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'Yeah, but how do you know they're all black? '

I don't, but because the last time there was major unrest, people who became significant figures emerged, they were black, maybe if this becomes more political, kurdish, turkish, etc, similar figures will emerge, at present there just isn't that level of engagement and its mostly criminality.


----------



## trabant (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Yeah, but how do you know they're all black? '
> 
> I don't



ftfy


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Yeah, but how do you know they're all black? '
> 
> I don't, but because the last time there was major unrest, people who became significant figures emerged, they were black, maybe if this becomes more political, kurdish, turkish, etc, similar figures will emerge, at present there just isn't that level of engagement and its mostly criminality.



And the bear trap opens.


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> btw, I posted up an article from the Guardian a week ago which predicted all this, I still think the people who are more politically aware and aggrieved are biding their time and seeing how things pan out, there are no young Bernie grants, Darcus Howes amongst these looters, yet....



Bernie Grant and Darcus Howe did not emerge from "amongst" the rioters the last time around you plank.


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Yeah, but how do you know they're all black? '
> 
> I don't, but because the last time there was major unrest, people who became significant figures emerged, they were black, maybe if this becomes more political, kurdish, turkish, etc, similar figures will emerge, at present there just isn't that level of engagement and its mostly criminality.



The last major unrest was at the anti-cuts demo in London, are you now confusing us with the black bloc?


----------



## rover07 (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> It's a car



Toyota MR2?


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

rover07 said:


> Toyota MR2?



Mazda MX-5 Mk1


----------



## Sue (Aug 8, 2011)

Maybe a Rover...?


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 8, 2011)

I suspect that the boardz upgrade is partly to blame for all the civil unrest.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Oh, right. My local pub closed down as well, and guess what ..... I didn't go out and smash up the local KFC / trainer shop / etc/
> 
> Stop making excuses for subhuman scumbags trashing neighbourhoods where people have to live!
> 
> Giles..



We've firmly established the fact that you're an ignorant wanker. You don't need to persuade us anymore.


----------



## IC3D (Aug 8, 2011)

Green Lanes won't get touched  and there is a fair sized group of moody looking blokes by the shops on Turnpike Lane too  did I say . To add Wood Green is probably safe now seeing as most the decent shops are boarded up now.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

@nino

ah, the witch hunters are mobilising....


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

bus on fire in Peckham now too


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> @nino
> 
> ah, the witch hunters are mobilising....


you made a stupid comment you've been called upon.  That isn't a witch-hunt


----------



## toblerone3 (Aug 8, 2011)

Bus has been set on fire in Peckham TfL/bbc


----------



## Giles (Aug 8, 2011)

So, they'll soon all be living in areas with burned out buildings, fewer shops and other facilities, with harsher policing and less for people to do. Win! Losers......

Giles..


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

Dowie said:


> hmmm - things brewing round my area now it seems... Kids moving from Lewisham towards Catford...



Here's a tip - don't tell them your views on the shooting 

Do you understand why people were getting frustrated by your comments by the way? We've seen the lies and disinformation on people murdered by the police again and again. We know they lie - it's what they do best. And when someone claims their statements are "fact" and takes them at face value, suggesting those who suspect otherwise are in the wrong, it rubs people up the wrong way. The default position on things like this is to not believe a word the police say. I think you were just being a bit naive though so apologies for calling you a cunt.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023667/London-riots-Looter-posts-photo-booty-Facebook.html

this idiot is in trouble, posted up his ill gotten gains on FB and his fizzog!


----------



## Ranbay (Aug 8, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo

40 seconds in for LOL's


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'*18.46 *Reports of a man on a bus in Hackney which was attacked with sticks and bottles, suffered an epileptic fit. Attended to by riot officers.'

anyone want to 'understand'  'contextualise' this?

Dylans...
Garek?


----------



## Dowie (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Here's a tip - don't tell them your views on the shooting
> 
> Do you understand why people were getting frustrated by your comments by the way? We've seen the lies and disinformation on people murdered by the police again and again. We know they lie - it's what they do best. And when someone claims their statements are "fact" and takes them at face value, suggesting those who suspect otherwise are in the wrong, it rubs people up the wrong way. The default position on things like this is to not believe a word the police say. I think you were just being a bit naive though so apologies for calling you a cunt.



No worries  (and yes I can understand if people have had experiences of police press release in the past etc..)- I was just sharing my opinion at the time given the apparent 'facts' - I think it is incredibly dodgy re: the way these 'facts' were released by the police/IPCC and have perhaps now become a bit more skeptical of the Police and their press releases as a result. I'm still quite shocked by the police bullet in radio thing it really doesn't make that incident sound good at all.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

madzone said:


> Will there be any pictures of you making up?



No, he's a bit shy like that.


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> Dylans...
> Garek?


sounds like a witch-hunt to me


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> '*18.46 *Reports of a manon a bus in Hackney which was attacked with sticks and bottles, suffered an epileptic fit. Attended to by riot officers.'
> 
> anyone want to 'understand' 'contextualise' this?
> 
> ...


Jesus, grow up.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'_rIf you're down for making money, we're about to go hard in east london tonight, yes tonight!! I don't care what ends you're from, we're personally inviting you to come and get it in. Police have taken the piss for too long and to be honest I don't know why its taken so long for us make this happen. We need a minimum of 200 hungry people. We're not broke, but who says no to free stuff. Doesn't matter if the police arrive cos we'll just chase dem out because as you've seen on the news, they are NOT ON DIS TING. Finders keepers and we all look after each other so if you see someone getting grab by feds then make sure we help stamp out that fuking PIG. M.O.B money over bobbies =D broadcast this to everyone you know and let's get paid!! RE SEND. LONDON MESSAGE'_

maybe a clearer rationale coming in from the 'horses mouth' as it were...


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Yeah, but how do you know they're all black? '
> 
> I don't, but because the last time there was major unrest, people who became significant figures emerged, they were black, maybe if this becomes more political, kurdish, turkish, etc, similar figures will emerge, at present there just isn't that level of engagement and its mostly criminality.



How do you know there's not that level of engagement? How do you know it's "mostly criminality"? I mean it might be, but neither you nor I know that. Don't let that stop you making baseless assertions though, if you did you'd never post anything.


----------



## WWWeed (Aug 8, 2011)

They just said on bbc london news the organisers of Notting hill carnival will be meeting police in the next few days to discuss if it can go ahead.

If it is cancelled I will be rioting!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> There you go again! I'm projecting but when Streathamite says _"That is PART of the truth - but only part. Yes a lot of the rioters are simply mindless hooligans" _he's telling the truth?



I can understand why you constantly introduce what other posters have said, it distracts from your own inanity, but I have little interest in what he's said, let alone whether he's telling the truth or not. I'm interested in what *you* are saying, and your reasons for doing so.

So be a man, answer my question instead of stropping like an attention-seeking child.



> You only have to look at the live footage from the BBC helicopter over Hackney to see what is happening. Ordinary people are being attacked, cars buses and shops are just being destroyed and for what? Nothing that you can say about the disaffection of these idiots justifys these acts of wanton destruction.



I'm not aware that anyone at all on the entire thread has contended that disaffection *justifies* their actions. In fact as I recall most people have stated that the most disaffection does is partially explains their actions.



> I don't think the police get it right all of the time, the Ian Tomlinson episode was a complete disgrace and there is no doubt that some officers are to heavy handed on some occasions, but surely you must agree that these lawless acts cannot be allowed to continue? Whatever issues these youths think they have does not give them carte-blanch to destroy this city!



No-one has said it does, you _nudnik_.


----------



## grit (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> '_rIf you're down for making money, we're about to go hard in east london tonight, yes tonight!! I don't care what ends you're from, we're personally inviting you to come and get it in. Police have taken the piss for too long and to be honest I don't know why its taken so long for us make this happen. We need a minimum of 200 hungry people. We're not broke, but who says no to free stuff. Doesn't matter if the police arrive cos we'll just chase dem out because as you've seen on the news, they are NOT ON DIS TING. Finders keepers and we all look after each other so if you see someone getting grab by feds then make sure we help stamp out that fuking PIG. M.O.B money over bobbies =D broadcast this to everyone you know and let's get paid!! RE SEND. LONDON MESSAGE'_
> 
> maybe a clearer rationale coming in from the 'horses mouth' as it were...



So its opportunistic crime, at least its honest and not trying to hide behind any greater idea.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 8, 2011)

So many twats on twitter. "This is what happens when you don't bring up your own kids". He got a round of fucks, that one.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'So its opportunistic crime, at least its honest and not trying to hide behind any greater idea.'

what a strange comment...


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> @nino
> 
> ah, the witch hunters are mobilising....



Hardly. I just heard a woman who had been burned out of her flat talk about a "young white man with blond hair" carrying a carpet and laughing. She described similar 'white' youths. Get your facts straight before leaping in with your usual ethnically skewed bollocks.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'So its opportunistic crime, at least its honest and not trying to hide behind any greater idea.'
> 
> what a strange comment...


No "stranger" than your ill-informed shite.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> '*18.46 *Reports of a manon a bus in Hackney which was attacked with sticks and bottles, suffered an epileptic fit. Attended to by riot officers.'
> 
> anyone want to 'understand' 'contextualise' this?
> 
> ...



Why are you acting like an ignorant twat?


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why are you acting like an ignorant twat?


It's his nature.


----------



## grit (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'So its opportunistic crime, at least its honest and not trying to hide behind any greater idea.'
> 
> what a strange comment...



I just thought it was good to see a representation of what the mindset is, its not politically motivated.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> '_rIf you're down for making money, we're about to go hard in east london tonight, yes tonight!! I don't care what ends you're from, we're personally inviting you to come and get it in. Police have taken the piss for too long and to be honest I don't know why its taken so long for us make this happen. We need a minimum of 200 hungry people. We're not broke, but who says no to free stuff. Doesn't matter if the police arrive cos we'll just chase dem out because as you've seen on the news, they are NOT ON DIS TING. Finders keepers and we all look after each other so if you see someone getting grab by feds then make sure we help stamp out that fuking PIG. M.O.B money over bobbies =D broadcast this to everyone you know and let's get paid!! RE SEND. LONDON MESSAGE'_
> 
> maybe a clearer rationale coming in from the 'horses mouth' as it were...



Let me get this straight, you're cherry-picking this post and attempting to imply that it represents the broad opinions of "the youth", are you?

Have a fucking word with yourself. You're sounding more and more like a whiny _Mail_-reader with each passing day.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> '_rIf you're down for making money, we're about to go hard in east london tonight, yes tonight!! I don't care what ends you're from, we're personally inviting you to come and get it in. Police have taken the piss for too long and to be honest I don't know why its taken so long for us make this happen. We need a minimum of 200 hungry people. We're not broke, but who says no to free stuff. Doesn't matter if the police arrive cos we'll just chase dem out because as you've seen on the news, they are NOT ON DIS TING. Finders keepers and we all look after each other so if you see someone getting grab by feds then make sure we help stamp out that fuking PIG. M.O.B money over bobbies =D broadcast this to everyone you know and let's get paid!! RE SEND. LONDON MESSAGE'_
> 
> maybe a clearer rationale coming in from the 'horses mouth' as it were...



Give it a fucking rest.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

grit said:


> I just thought it was good to see a representation of what the mindset is, its not politically motivated.


Well, it's a representation of the opinions of the person that wrote it, but that's all.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

grit said:


> So its opportunistic crime, at least its honest and not trying to hide behind any greater idea.


Wow, you two have it wrapped up.


----------



## grit (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, it's a representation of the opinions of the person that wrote it, but that's all.



From whats being reported by the media and folks on the ground it appears to be representational of at least a sizable minority.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> '*18.46 *Reports of a manon a bus in Hackney which was attacked with sticks and bottles, suffered an epileptic fit. Attended to by riot officers.'
> 
> anyone want to 'understand' 'contextualise' this?
> 
> ...


source please.

not heard anything of the sort...


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> '*18.46 *Reports of a manon a bus in Hackney which was attacked with sticks and bottles, suffered an epileptic fit. Attended to by riot officers.'
> 
> anyone want to 'understand' 'contextualise' this?
> 
> ...



Yeah - you're a cunt.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

grit said:


> From whats being reported by the media and folks on the ground it appears to be representational of at least a sizable minority.


So why say this grit



> I just thought it was good to see a representation of what the mindset is,


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> _ I don't care what ends you're from, we're personally inviting you to come and get it in. _



The youth have realised there are better things than random violence against others from a different postcode. With every cloud there's a silver lining! Top post TL


----------



## grit (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> So why say this grit



Butchers! What a sad fact that the ignore feature didnt survive the transition, I'll remedy it immediately.

Try not to drink yourself to death, good man.


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> source please.
> 
> not heard anything of the sort...


the ever reliable Daily Telegraph


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> '_rIf you're down for making money, we're about to go hard in east london tonight, yes tonight!! I don't care what ends you're from, we're personally inviting you to come and get it in. Police have taken the piss for too long and to be honest I don't know why its taken so long for us make this happen. We need a minimum of 200 hungry people. We're not broke, but who says no to free stuff. Doesn't matter if the police arrive cos we'll just chase dem out because as you've seen on the news, they are NOT ON DIS TING. Finders keepers and we all look after each other so if you see someone getting grab by feds then make sure we help stamp out that fuking PIG. M.O.B money over bobbies =D broadcast this to everyone you know and let's get paid!! RE SEND. LONDON MESSAGE'_
> 
> maybe a clearer rationale coming in from the 'horses mouth' as it were...



2 points;

1. Even though I don't accept for a moment that "looting" cannot have any element of politics, there's politics clearly there "Police have taken the piss for too long"

2. Anything by way of evidence the author someone actually involved - and not some spotty 15 year old sitting in his bedroom?

Mug.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

Just hearing of "disturbances" in Brum city centre on Twitter


----------



## Dowie (Aug 8, 2011)

Whats the score with the police having to pay for the damage if it gets declared a 'riot'? Kind of puts a different slant on things...


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 8, 2011)

Why are the tories slagging off looting? Surely these enterprising young people are taking advantage of an opportunity to advance their material wealth - the classic conservative way.

Anyways: Jean Charles had a bomb. Smiley had a knife. Ian died of natural causes. Now we have "Mark fired first".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

grit said:


> From whats being reported by the media and folks on the ground it appears to be representational of at least a sizable minority.



Well, that's the problem, isn't it? "Appearances" are just that until they're substantiated.


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> 2. Anything by way of evidence the author someone actually involved - and not some spotty 15 year old sitting in his bedroom?


or even Johan Hari


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 8, 2011)

MOB - money over bobbies = top quality slogan.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Whats the score with the police having to pay for the damage if it gets declared a 'riot'? Kind of puts a different slant on things...


IIRC, not the police, but the state.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 8, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Whats the score with the police having to pay for the damage if it gets declared a 'riot'? Kind of puts a different slant on things...



Someone from Legal Defence Monitoring Group tells me it goes back to the first incarnation of the law in the late 19th century. Thus no one ever gets done for more than Violent Disorder.

This itself is an arse. Violent Disorder doesn't have to be against the person. Affray (lower) does.


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Just hearing of "disturbances" in Brum city centre on Twitter



Been seeing that, heard their shopping at the Bullring.


----------



## grit (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, that's the problem, isn't it? "Appearances" are just that until they're substantiated.



Which applies to all posts here.


----------



## BlackArab (Aug 8, 2011)

Oh no they're burning Greggs in Peckham, where will people get their steak bakes now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

grit said:


> Which applies to all posts here.



You're sharp, aren't you?


----------



## Dowie (Aug 8, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Someone from Legal Defence Monitoring Group tells me it goes back to the first incarnation of the law in the late 19th century. Thus no one ever gets done for more than Violent Disorder.
> 
> This itself is an arse. Violent Disorder doesn't have to be against the person. Affray (lower) does.



Ah ok - I was just wondering if a 'riot' comes out of their budget... Suddenly smashing windows etc.. then has another effect for young people who's aim was to take on the police.


----------



## grit (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're sharp, aren't you?



Very


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 8, 2011)

> 1923:  Dean A
> tweets: Just seens about 200 youths in hoodies pass through the streets of East Ham with bikes and batons. #londonriots


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

what do we rate the chances of Mays head rolling on this one?


----------



## magneze (Aug 8, 2011)

Less than zero. Already talking about the need for water cannons on BBC news. FFS.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'_The supposed 6pm disturbance in Birmingham that was being rumoured on social networking sits has failed to materialised so far, West Midlands police said. _
_A spokesman said that they had received calls about a large crowd building in the city centre, accompanied by a sizeable police presence, but this was for a public balcony appearance by the India cricket team. _
_He said there had been no confirmed incidents of violence so far linked to events in London.'_


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

magneze said:


> Less than zero. Already talking about the need for water cannons on BBC news. FFS.


 






Bean bag rounds, ftw.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Penbury. In't there some gang shit there?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

grit said:


> Butchers! What a sad fact that the ignore feature didnt survive the transition, I'll remedy it immediately.
> 
> Try not to drink yourself to death, good man.


Thanks grit.


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

magneze said:


> Less than zero. Already talking about the need for water cannons on BBC news. FFS.



This type of thing going on will only ever lead to that kind of talk (and action, if it continues) from modern politicians.   God forbid someone should die in these outbreaks and they will be talking about worse things.


----------



## magneze (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Bean bag rounds, ftw.


All about the retribution with you isn't it.


----------



## Giles (Aug 8, 2011)

magneze said:


> Less than zero. Already talking about the need for water cannons on BBC news. FFS.



How about some 30mm cannons?

Giles..


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 8, 2011)

belboid said:


> the ever reliable Daily Telegraph


no link no source no support of the point don't do this shills work for them..


----------



## camouflage (Aug 8, 2011)

Goddamnit, if I hear the word "community" in a sentence one more time I will kick-off a riot of my own. News reports are starting to sound like this...

"blah blah community community blah blah the community blah blah community community community blah the community blah the community blah the community the community the community. THE COMMUNITY!!1!"

I wonder if "community" is the new word for "ghetto" or something.


----------



## ericjarvis (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> what do we rate the chances of Mays head rolling on this one?



Not a chance in hell.

You could see the pattern of the response from the political establishment in an interview with Malthouse on C4 News. Apparently IF it turns out that there were problems in the way the police communicated with the Duggan family he apologises. However anyone involved in "disorder" will be made to see that "their actions have consequences". Which is what it all boils down to. If you are a politician or a police officer then you do NOT face the consequences of your actions. That only happens to black and working class people.

I've gone from fucking livid to killing angry.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> How about some 30mm cannons?
> 
> Giles..


yes what a situation like tottenham needs is more armed people involved than are already itching their tirgger fingers... oh yes that'll resolve things...

giles other thane being billy bullshitter your entire posting career what exaclty do you bring to this place...

here's hoping you're the first to get a volly of fire from both sides... equal opportunities wanker hating...


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> This type of thing going on will only ever lead to that kind of talk (and action, if it continues) from modern politicians. God forbid someone should die in these outb eaks and they will be talking about worse things.


What's the word on  the locker room? Everyone pumped up?


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'If I see anyone looting in #lewisham and I know you I'm bringing the police to your door. I don't care who you think you are.less than a minute ago via Twitter for BlackBerry® 

 Favorite 

 Retweet 

 Reply

*Duwayne Brooks*
DuwayneBrooks

Duwayane Brooks pland to shop the looters..

brave guy...


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 8, 2011)

question: Is looting essentially a tory persuit? grab-what-you-can materialism?


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

http://yfrog.com/h07mxcyzj

some of the rioters are clearly more organised than others...


----------



## likesfish (Aug 8, 2011)

think thats bollocks although possibly if its a riot insurance companies don't have to pay out.
 expect da yoof in jail are going to have the chance to get a free OU degree expect very heavy sentences.
  if it continues expect the water cannon and or baton rounds to come out to play.
 although nothing beats using a helicopter eye in the sky  to let you outflank the rioters.
 nothing beats the look on the face of some stone thrower whose been happily lobbing rocks at a shield wall and legging it safe in the knowledge he can outrun the squaddies when he discovers he's been outflanked.
 from angry cypriot anarchist to meek teenager in about 5 seconds flat.


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

The Guardian have some more on the Duggan shooting:​


> Expedited forensic tests are being carried out on the handgun found at the scene of Duggan's fatal shooting and bullets fired by the police. It is understood that ballistics experts have established that the firearm being carried in the minicab was a lethal weapon. It was a handgun which once in its life had not been capable of firing – a replica, a starting pistol or a collector's weapon. But the firearm had been converted – as many illegal firearms purchased on the street are – in order to carry live ammunition.
> The IPCC has said that they hope to have a fuller ballistics picture within 24 hours. But it is understood to be a complex picture, involving a number of tests to establish trajectory of bullets and how many were fired.
> According to Sky the C019 firearms officer has said that he never claimed Duggan had shot at him.
> The firearms officer is understood to have told investigators that he opened fire because he believed he was in danger from a lethal weapon. Two shots were fired, it is understood; one hit Duggan and one missed lodging in another officer's radio.
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> http://yfrog.com/h07mxcyzj
> 
> some of the rioters are clearly more organised than others...


A scrunched up snatch of a paper produced for something else with tottnham photoshopped  in. That's on the internet. You're on fucking fire.


----------



## WWWeed (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'If I see anyone looting in #lewisham and I know you I'm bringing the police to your door. I don't care who you think you are.less than a minute ago via Twitter for BlackBerry®
> 
> Favorite
> 
> ...


Hes now saying Carnival should now be cancelled.

I hope he dies a slow painful death.


----------



## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

WWWeed said:


> Hes now saying Carnival should now be cancelled.
> 
> I hope he dies a slow painful death.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 8, 2011)

BBC News just said reports of windows being smashed near the Bullring in Brum


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

magneze said:


> All about the retribution with you isn't it.



That's a matter for the courts.

Bean bag rounds = prevention.


----------



## Flanflinger (Aug 8, 2011)

And these fuckers wonder why no one will employ them.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 8, 2011)

Flanflinger said:


> And these fuckers wonder why no one will employ them.



many's the day when these yoots have turned up for an interview and stolen everything in the place as well as burning the job interview down... oh wait that's never happened ever... another rigth wing apologist prick you are then...

where are these twats coming from...  New boards and suddenly we've got all these rancid fucking middle class wankers here bitching...

It's great how only 4 years ago these same middle class wankers were parading round telling everyone how working class they were and why it was so, so hard to be so tragically hip.  Soon as a bit of actually class friction comes along it's won't someone think of the property prices and we've all had to work hard for our stuff why don't those oiks...

that'd be the oiks you and your flannel shirted Nathans have been imitating for the last few years...


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

Just spent an hour calming down a girl who lives in a rented Hackney flat, randomly met her in a pub on the way home watching the BBC footage on the big telly. She lives in a converted flat, a former shop, next to a bookies in Hackney. Her boyfriend called to tell her to stay away, he's trying to sort out a place for them to sleep. Their insurance quoted £1000 to board the windows up. Insurance company unable to say if they are covered, meaning they aren't.
She's called neighbours who have packed suitcases and fled.

She's worried about elderly neighbours without mobile phones who are living above shops and not answering the landlines. Her Blackberry battery was dying. Some kind soul swapped his fully charged battery for hers.

Seems to me it won't be long before army are authorised to go in with rubber bullets.

Aside from the armchair cheering of these fuckwit looters (they aren't protesters) it seems the real victims are the working class. I don't see looters as working class, it's a mass burglary. They aren't robbing from banks, their robbing from their own.

Bring in the military, someone needs to stop this bullshit and the cops are too scared or too keen to let it all happen.

I predict that the proposed cuts to police services won't happen now.


----------



## Sue (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Penbury. In't there some gang shit there?


Yep, Pembury Boys. Load of them got arrested last week.

http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/new...swoop_on_hackney_gangs_in_dawn_raids_1_983079


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 8, 2011)

Troops on the streets ? Yep, THAT'LL go well !


----------



## grit (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> Just spent an hour calming down a girl who lives in a rented Hackney flat, randomly met her in a pub on the way home watching the BBC footage on the big telly. She lives in a converted flat, a former shop, next to a bookies in Hackney. Her boyfriend called to tell her to stay away, he's trying to sort out a place for them to sleep. Their insurance quoted £1000 to board the windows up. Insurance company unable to say if they are covered, meaning they aren't.
> She's called neighbours who have packed suitcases and fled.
> 
> She's worried about elderly neighbours without mobile phones who are living above shops and not answering the landlines. Her Blackberry battery was dying. Some kind soul swapped his fully charged battery for hers.
> ...



The tragic reality of whats going on, shows how ridiculous cheering this on is


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 8, 2011)

likesfish said:


> think thats bollocks although possibly if its a riot insurance companies don't have to pay out.
> expect da yoof in jail are going to have the chance to get a free OU degree expect very heavy sentences.
> if it continues expect the water cannon and or baton rounds to come out to play.
> although nothing beats using a helicopter eye in the sky to let you outflank the rioters.
> ...


sounds liek you're gloating at the burning down of peoples homes and livelihoods as well as at the possibility of more carnage...

is this like your tory wet dream... ooooo arrrggghhhhhh yeah baby beat up the protesters, hit em, hit em again oooo baby... get that shit with the stick go on.....


----------



## Paris Garters (Aug 8, 2011)

standoff between masked up youngsters in brum city centre, windows smashed.

e2a between kids & police.

 radio 4 so obviously true...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 8, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> Troops on the streets ? Yep, THAT'LL go well !



It'd be a way to turn these current things into a surefire revolution once and for all... how long after troops shoot youths would the entire contry decide fuck this shit it happened in egypt... why not heard lets get these fuckers who've been robbing us blind in over taxation for years only to pay it out to big business...

high or low in this country it'd only take the military on the streets for people to say fuck this and really riot... we'd be in civil war... I doubt very much the govt would ever risk it...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 8, 2011)

loads of cop cars now headed into Tottenham again...


----------



## Teepee (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> Just spent an hour calming down a girl who lives in a rented Hackney flat, randomly met her in a pub on the way home watching the BBC footage on the big telly. She lives in a converted flat, a former shop, next to a bookies in Hackney. Her boyfriend called to tell her to stay away, he's trying to sort out a place for them to sleep. Their insurance quoted £1000 to board the windows up. Insurance company unable to say if they are covered, meaning they aren't.
> She's called neighbours who have packed suitcases and fled.
> 
> She's worried about elderly neighbours without mobile phones who are living above shops and not answering the landlines. Her Blackberry battery was dying. Some kind soul swapped his fully charged battery for hers.
> ...



nail, head


----------



## likesfish (Aug 8, 2011)

the Household Calvary can have a squadron out within the hour.
1908 Cavalry sabre finished the debate about slashing or stabbing henceforth the army was just going to stab really really hard.


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 8, 2011)

Leeds?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14449656


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

likesfish said:


> the Household Calvary can have a squadron out within the hour.
> 1908 Cavalry sabre finished the debate about slashing or stabbing henceforth the army was just going to stab really really hard.


Can they fuck.What, anywhere?  Bring out your horses anyway.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> Oh, right. My local pub closed down as well, and guess what ..... I didn't go out and smash up the local KFC / trainer shop / etc/
> Giles..


Congratulations, Giles. You have won this years U75 post-that-misses-the-point-by-a-mile award! 
the kids here have (often) dysfunctional upbringings on sink estates, crap education at crap schools, fuck-all oportunities, police harassment and all arround them see a world that only ever shits on them. Now, one of the few safe, supervised places where  they can go to spend their time has gone, and they're back on the streets, with the dealers,the knives, the rest, in the sort of ugly, bleak environment that produces psychologically ugly, bleak people


> Stop making excuses for subhuman scumbags trashing neighbourhoods where people have to live!


Jesus wept. No-one is 'making excuses', we're trying to undersand why this happened, so as to forestall a repitition. They are NOT 'scumbags' you clueless fucking muppet, but alienated, bitter youth. Ever wonderd why this riot happened in tottenham and not Kensington, hmm?
I'd LOVE to live in your simple, black-and-white world where bad things onl;y ever happen cos people are bad, and reality is never more complex or messy than that.
the only problem is that I strongly suspect that world is reserved for ignorant simpletons like you, who know zip about life at the tough end


----------



## likesfish (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Can they fuck.What, anywhere? Bring out your horses anyway.


  The frankly bonkers officer I met although most cavlary officers are a bit strange. claimed they could be saddled up and giving the rabble a well deserved sabering within the hour 
 frankly that seemed a safer Idea that letting this lunatic lose with a 40 ton main battle tank.


----------



## rover07 (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> nail, head



twat


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 8, 2011)

MissJadaLauren Miss Jada!  

Tottenham, Enfield, Woodgreen, Walthamstow, Brixton, Lewisham, Peckham, Hackney, down to Eastham, down to Ilford to Barking, then to *Romford*


----------



## Teepee (Aug 8, 2011)

rover07 said:


> twat


be sure to keep cheering them on if something of yours or your loved ones is smashed or burned for no reason, retard! I'd support these people if they were railing against the government or had any kind of message, but they aren't. They're robbing JJB and burning down foot locker. It's not exactly the arab spring.


----------



## grit (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Jesus wept. No-one is 'making excuses', we're trying to undersand why this happened, so as to forestall a repitition. They are NOT 'scumbags' you clueless fucking muppet, but alienated, bitter youth. Ever wonderd why this riot happened in tottenham and not Kensington, hmm?



In fairness there have been some posts that appear to be cheering it on, I'd imagine thats what his outburst was directed at


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> nail, head



Certainly what pk could do with.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2011)

Sue said:


> Yep, Pembury Boys. Load of them got arrested last week.
> 
> http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/new...swoop_on_hackney_gangs_in_dawn_raids_1_983079



The same operation that Pickman had issues with:



> given that the council no longer run housing in hackney - most council housing now being with the almo hackney homes - and given that the council have made savage cuts, it's interesting they can find the funds to chuck wads of money at the police over 18 months. i wonder how many of the cuts might never have happened if the council had put this money towards benefitting all hackney residents, and the police had used their huge budget for this operation.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 8, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> sounds liek you're gloating at the burning down of peoples homes and livelihoods as well as at the possibility of more carnage...
> 
> is this like your tory wet dream... ooooo arrrggghhhhhh yeah baby beat up the protesters, hit em, hit em again oooo baby... get that shit with the stick go on.....


  This is only going to stop when its stops being fun getting smacked in the face by a baton tends to persuade people to go home now.
 They are not protesting this isn't Egypt. Protestors don't loot tracksuits and computers and burn ordinary peoples homes down.
  If it was a protest they might be actually be thinking about targets. unless JD sports is the secret ruler of the UK I think not.


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

rover07 said:


> twat



Who are you calling "twat"? Teepee for agreeing with me, or me?

If it's me, then have the guts to attack my post.

I'm assuming you're on the wrong forum. I don't even need an excuse tonight having tried to placate some poor terrified girl for an hour. Oh and by the way - she was black. If you're here to troll then you better be aware that I for one will remember it. I'll bet you are nowhere near South London anyway. Explain or Fuck Off, preferably the latter.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> No it doesn't. But it does make you understand where she's coming from. If you haven't done it, you have no hope of getting it.


sorry, don't buy that. by your argument, no-one has the right to comment on anyone else, unless they have done the same job as them.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> It's not exactly the arab spring.



More like the summer sales - everything must go.


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> Certainly what pk could do with.



Join the queue you fucking worm.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Chrispeptide said:


> There you go again! I'm projecting but when Streathamite says _"That is PART of the truth - but only part. Yes a lot of the rioters are simply mindless hooligans" _he's telling the truth? You only have to look at the live footage from the BBC helicopter over Hackney to see what is happening. Ordinary people are being attacked, cars buses and shops are just being destroyed and for what? Nothing that you can say about the disaffection of these idiots justifys these acts of wanton destruction.
> 
> I don't think the police get it right all of the time, the Ian Tomlinson episode was a complete disgrace and there is no doubt that some officers are to heavy handed on some occasions, but surely you must agree that these lawless acts cannot be allowed to continue? Whatever issues these youths think they have does not give them carte-blanch to destroy this city!


jesus christ. It REALLY isn't as simple as that. to quote MLK; 'riot is the voice of the unheard'.
e2a; I take it you've never had dealings with Tottenham OB then? Just about every person I know in Tottenham has had legit grounds for a harassment complaint
e2aa: as you acknowledge, i've admitted that some of the rioters - many, even - are simply opportunistic scumbags. It's just there are other causal factors at play, ones you simply don't seem to get


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> Who are you calling "twat"? Teepee for agreeing with me, or me?
> 
> If it's me, then have the guts to attack my post.
> 
> I'm assuming you're on the wrong forum. I don't even need an excuse tonight having tried to placate some poor terrified girl for an hour. Oh and by the way - she was black. If you're here to troll then you better be aware that I for one will remember it. I'll bet you are nowhere near South London anyway. Explain or Fuck Off, preferably the latter.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Yeah, but how do you know they're all black? '
> 
> I don't, but because the last time there was major unrest, people who became significant figures emerged, they were black, maybe if this becomes more political, kurdish, turkish, etc, similar figures will emerge, at present there just isn't that level of engagement and its mostly criminality.


Bernie grant and Darcus Howe had ALREADY been 'significant figures' for some considerable time, by the time of the Broadwater farm riots


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

Livingstone on the beeb now supporting use of water cannon!


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


>



Yeah, great idea, lets clog up what could be an important info thread with old rows you were too late to partake in. Slow handclap for Past Caring. In the meantime others might stop wanking over riot porn from the comfort of their fucking TV and actually help the working class people affected by this shit. If this is your "revolution" I hope you're first against the wall, idiot.


----------



## Ranbay (Aug 8, 2011)

*It's kicking off in Kensington now, Waterstones has been raided and there heading down to Urban Outfitters *


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

Ian Bone is wetting himself on his blog....


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 8, 2011)

just got off the phone to my friend who lived above the carpet shop. i have to be slightly careful because some of this will hopefully be looked at more closely and legally.

she was awoken by a young man (who she thinks was one of the rioters) who knocked on her door and told her to get out. for some reason, her flat's fire alarm hadn't sounded, despite raging fire in the carpet shop below (which allegedly had been filled with looted tyres from an adjacent garage, with the police nowhere to be seen).

she took her baby and on getting to street level, encountered a white bloke with blond hair carrying a rug over his shoulder, who smiled and said something like "great eh?" she has nothing left at all, nothing other than what she stands up in. luckily, she has family and friends who can step in for now. there are other factors which add pathos to this, as if any was needed. i had tears streaming down my face by the time we hung up.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> just got off the phone to my friend who lived above the carpet shop. i have to be slightly careful because some of this will hopefully be looked at more closely and legally.
> 
> she was awoken by a young man (who she thinks was one of the rioters) who knocked on her door and told her to get out. for some reason, her flat's fire alarm hadn't sounded, despite raging fire in the carpet shop below (which allegedly had been filled with looted tyres from an adjacent garage, with the police nowhere to be seen).
> 
> she took her baby and on getting to street level, encountered a white bloke with blond hair carrying a rug over his shoulder, who smiled and said something like "great eh?" she has nothing left at all, nothing other than what she stands up in. luckily, she has family and friends who can step in for now. there are other factors which add pathos to this, as if any was needed. i had tears streaming down my face by the time we hung up.



Tell her not to worry, Paulie.

Tell her that "riot is the voice of the unheard".


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 8, 2011)

More fires in Croydon...


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> '*18.46 *Reports of a manon a bus in Hackney which was attacked with sticks and bottles, suffered an epileptic fit. Attended to by riot officers.'
> 
> anyone want to 'understand' 'contextualise' this?
> 
> ...


ffs! *No-one* has said there aren't scumbags rioting, it's just that doesn't tell the whole story, or anything like it.
You really are talking ill-informed bollix here, TL


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> Ian Bone is wetting himself on his blog....


whereas you are spraying piss n shit everywhere


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Tell her not to worry, Paulie.
> 
> Tell her that "riot is the voice of the unheard".



When you work out the difference between explanation and condemnation, do come back.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 8, 2011)

oh fuck oh fuck ... fires spreading...


----------



## Tankus (Aug 8, 2011)

fires in croyden ....multiple buildings .... BBC now

police should be issued with 12 bores and bean bag rounds ....croyden looks like a war zone


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Tell her not to worry, Paulie.
> 
> Tell her that "riot is the voice of the unheard".


 
Oh Spy !!!

Most folks on here ARE concerned about the fate of individuals, but , generally, it's people trying to understand what's happening not knee-jerk into "troops on the streets" & such tosh.


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> Yeah, great idea, lets clog up what could be an important info thread with old rows you were too late to partake in.



Eh? You on the funny cigarettes again chief or is it just early-onset Alzheimer's? I've been posting the Walter Mitty pic as least as far back as the SHAC UK thread.



> Slow handclap for Past Caring. In the meantime others might stop wanking over riot porn from the comfort of their fucking TV and actually help the working class people affected by this shit. If this is your "revolution" I hope you're first against the wall, idiot.



Nobody's wanked over riot porn you tool. There's been a few bring back the birch types getting a failed semi at the thought of the army going in though.



pk said:


> Seems to me it won't be long before army are authorised to go in with rubber bullets.
> 
> .........
> 
> ...



Can't you get the nurse to finger your arse instead of inflicting this shit on the rest of us?


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 8, 2011)

i imagine a few insurance jobs will be going down.....


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 8, 2011)

Tankus said:


> fires in croyden ....multiple buildings .... BBC now
> 
> police should be issued with 12 bores and bean bag rounds ....croyden looks like a war zone



Wow I didn't realise how many cunts were on Urban until this thread...


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 8, 2011)

why don't burn crappy old 1960s building ...


----------



## Giles (Aug 8, 2011)

Protestors with a genuine case to make can protest and occupy space, but peacefully.

You are what you do, I'm afraid.

If your "protest" is peaceful and genuine, you may have a point worth listening to.

If your "protest" involves looting a mobile phone shop, smashing and burning some poor fuckers car or house, destroying ordinary people's livelihoods and homes, then that makes you selfish scum.

Simples!

Giles..


----------



## andy2002 (Aug 8, 2011)

Anyone know what's gone off in Barking? Train station closed and unlikely to open again until tomorrow.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> be sure to keep cheering them on if something of yours or your loved ones is smashed or burned for no reason, retard! I'd support these people if they were railing against the government or had any kind of message, but they aren't. They're robbing JJB and burning down foot locker. It's not exactly the arab spring.


In tottenham, the main causal factor is resentment at the police, unemployment and poverty, ditto here (leyton) - if that isn't 'political', I don't know what is.


----------



## Tankus (Aug 8, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> Wow I didn't realise how many cunts were on Urban until this thread...


oh...... theres plenty of sickos on here that think this is great


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 8, 2011)

Anyway, is Dave enjoying Tuscany?


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'whereas you are spraying piss n shit everywhere'

'*20.45 Victoria Ward *in Peckham reports:
_I am with a young Spanish woman who lives behind the Greggs bakery which is on fire in Peckham. She is in tears, saying that a gang burgled her house while the road was being evacuated. She now can't get access as it's all blocked off by riot police.'_

you can say what you fucking like, terrible things are happening to ordinary people, such as the above....


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 8, 2011)

Extra police copters called in from both Surrey & Sussex police.


----------



## Corax (Aug 8, 2011)

Longer term effects of this may be pretty shit.  Carte blanche for the police to be as 'robust' as they feel like, more numbers in the riot squad, water cannon etc...

I hope I'm wrong, but with the TVs the country over showing burning neighbourhoods, a tory government in power, and an increasingly 'ambitious' police force it wouldn't exactly be a surprise.

Maybe Clegg will save us.


----------



## noodles (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'whereas you are spraying piss n shit everywhere'
> 
> '*20.45 Victoria Ward *in Peckham reports:
> _I am with a young Spanish woman who lives behind the Greggs bakery which is on fire in Peckham. She is in tears, saying that a gang burgled her house while the road was being evacuated. She now can't get access as it's all blocked off by riot police.'_
> ...



Quite. Too many apologists for these scum. They aren't protestors at all - they are bullies and cowards.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Aug 8, 2011)

I heard that the youf are heading from East Ham towards Romford who knows...


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Tell her not to worry, Paulie.
> 
> Tell her that "riot is the voice of the unheard".


oh ffs, another one. Look, I am potentially right in the middle of this, and yes I'm fucking scared.
but simply condemning our urban w/c youth, or - worse - writing them off as 'subhuman savages' simply isn't enough; unless we understand why this is happening, why this anger, frustration and resentment has suddenly boiled over, is the only way we can forestall countless repetitions of this.


----------



## elbows (Aug 8, 2011)

Giles said:


> If your "protest" involves looting a mobile phone shop, smashing and burning some poor fuckers car or house, destroying ordinary people's livelihoods and homes, then that makes you selfish scum.
> 
> Simples!
> 
> Giles..



Such judgements are largely irrelevant though, they don't offer any ways for society to deal with the problem and avoid a repeat.

Condemnation is the easy bit.

A very extreme example would be terrorists. We bend over backwards to condemn their methods, and usually claim we will not be give them what they want, but in reality some steps are usually taken which could be described as gains for the terrorists cause.

So, people can drool all they want about the horror of the symptoms, its understandable, but don't kid yourself that it has much to do with any solutions or avoiding these things happening in future.


----------



## Corax (Aug 8, 2011)

noodles said:


> Quite. Too many apologists for these scum. They aren't protestors at all - they are bullies and cowards.


There's a difference between condoning their actions, and believing that they're a product of their environments.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

Most of these looters are not undertaking 'collective bargaining by riot', they are taking advantage of the situations to 'steal shit'

though of course they are a product of their environment, but how mcuh can you accept, burning people out of homes...

are the EDL a product of their environment..


----------



## terratech (Aug 8, 2011)

*Reported in Guardian.... Full on Hand to Hand Fighting with Police *
*London riots: the third night – live coverage*

Hand-to-hand fighting
People ripping off tree branches to attack police. This is all Three Sisters Church

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/08/london-riots-third-night-live


----------



## ericjarvis (Aug 8, 2011)

The point is that simply demanding punishment for rioters and looters whilst ignoring the original grievances simply makes more people feel they have nothing to lose.

The law can work through consensus or through force. If the establishment are saying that the killing of (usually) young (almost always) black men by police isn't something to take seriously, but that any form of rioting or looting is, then it is the establishment that has broken the consensus, and it's pretty much inevitable that some people will set out to see what force the police have actually got.

Making statements without that as the context is simply making things worse. Either a crime is a crime or it isn't. In my view it should be, so my attitude is that any police officers involved in a cover up over the circumstances of Mark Duggan's death should be punished appropriately as should anyone involved in violence, theft, arson, and vandalism. However I appear to be at odds with the establishment view.

So what's the problem? Is there a logical error in how I'm looking at this? If not, then why are we letting politicians who are supposed to be professionals at this sort of shit get away with constantly making statements that are pretty much guaranteed to make things worse?


----------



## noodles (Aug 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> There's a difference between condoning their actions, and believing that they're a product of their environments.



They are in a tiny, _tiny_ minority of thousands - if not millions - of other people brought up in identical environments, so that doesn't wash for me.


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## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> Oh Spy !!!
> 
> Most folks on here ARE concerned about the fate of individuals, but , generally, it's people trying to understand what's happening not knee-jerk into "troops on the streets" & such tosh.


precisely, and I'm trying very hard, sitting in my bedfroom in east London, trying not to think of the worst-case scenario if things escalate.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> oh ffs, another one. Look, I am potentially right in the middle of this, and yes I'm fucking scared.
> but simply condemning our urban w/c youth, or - worse - writing them off as 'subhuman savages' simply isn't enough; unless we understand why this is happening, why this anger, frustration and resentment has suddenly boiled over, is the only way we can forestall countless repetitions of this.



How do you think they should be dealt with right now then, Jez?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

noodles said:


> They are in a tiny, _tiny_ minority of thousands - if not millions - of other people brought up in identical environments, so that doesn't wash for me.


so why do you think these riots are happening in impoverished Tottenham, hackney, Lewisham, and not in esher or ascot, hmm?
Ever thought there might be some complex social and economic causal factors?


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

past caring said:


> Eh? inflicting this shit on the rest of us?



Fuck this. I'm on a phone list of elderly residents in Croydon town centre, ready to jump in the car if they don't pick up. I've kids at home scared, and you're bringing up 10 year old spats.

Fuck this.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

*21.10 *Telegraph sources: David Cameron is to return to Britain overnight

maybe correct...

confirmed, he is to call a Cobra meeting tomorrow..,.


----------



## noodles (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> so why do you think these riots are happening in impoverished Tottenham, hackney, Lewisham, and not in esher or ascot, hmm?
> Ever thought there might be some complex social and economic causal factors?



So what separates the thousands of people who grew up in identical circumstances to these rioters, from the rioters themselves?


----------



## grit (Aug 8, 2011)

confirmed on bbc cameron on the way back


----------



## Teepee (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> In tottenham, the main causal factor is resentment at the police, unemployment and poverty, ditto here (leyton) - if that isn't 'political', I don't know what is.


So they burn down foot locker and a furniture shop? They are angry, yes. But they are also fucking stupid and thoughtless.


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

urban75 - this could have been your moment. New forum software and everything. I'm better off on Twitter, this is a joke.
Even the fuckin BBC is more useful.


----------



## Corax (Aug 8, 2011)

noodles said:


> They are in a tiny, _tiny_ minority of thousands - if not millions - of other people brought up in identical environments, so that doesn't wash for me.


So you don't think it's because they're a product of their environments.

By deduction then, you must believe that it's genetic.  Interesting.


----------



## noodles (Aug 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> So you don't think it's because they're a product of their environments.
> 
> By deduction then, you must believe that it's genetic. Interesting.



It's very revealing that you didn't answer my question but instead tried to put words in my mouth.

Perhaps I should ask you again: What separates the thousands of people who grew up in identical circumstances to these rioters, from the rioters themselves?


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## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

speculate away.meanwhile your fucking precious working classes are suffering and scared.I'm off to Croydon.Fuck anyone nearby who isn't trying to help the most vulnerable in this chav looting shit.


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## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

have to ask, where are all the metal barriers, steel screens, etc, the Met utilises for political protests?


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## Red Storm (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> speculate away.meanwhile your fucking precious working classes are suffering and scared.I'm off to Croydon.Fuck anyone nearby who isn't trying to help the most vulnerable in this chav looting shit.



LOL


----------



## Corax (Aug 8, 2011)

noodles said:


> It's very revealing that you didn't answer my question but instead tried to put words in my mouth.
> 
> Perhaps I should ask you again: What separates the thousands of people who grew up in identical circumstances to these rioters, from the rioters themselves?





noodles said:


> They are in a tiny, _tiny_ minority of thousands - if not millions - of other people brought up in identical environments, so that doesn't wash for me.


That's not a question.



noodles said:


> So what separates the thousands of people who grew up in identical circumstances to these rioters, from the rioters themselves?


You asked Streathamite that. Perhaps you should check your own posts before laying on the pseudopsychology.


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'whereas you are spraying piss n shit everywhere'
> 
> '*20.45 Victoria Ward *in Peckham reports:
> _I am with a young Spanish woman who lives behind the Greggs bakery which is on fire in Peckham. She is in tears, saying that a gang burgled her house while the road was being evacuated. She now can't get access as it's all blocked off by riot police.'_
> ...


oh, so you are capable of reading other peoples posts, then (even if, after ten years, you are still too dumb to actually use the 'reply' button).  why havent you bothered replying to any of the (many) posts pointing out how you have been talking nonsense on the rest of the thread?  you keep copying out Daily Telegraph posts without thinking about whether they have any basis in fact - and some are blatantly nonsense.  There is no reason why anyone should bother with any of the drivel you post


----------



## noodles (Aug 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> That's not a question.
> 
> You asked Streathamite that. Perhaps you should check your own posts before laying on the pseudopsychology.



Well, I assumed that you'd read the other reply I posted so I stand corrected if you had not. I'm not laying on any psychology, pseduo or otherwise. What do you think - what does separate them?


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> LOL



Another one part of the problem not the solution. LOL away, you fucking vegetable.

You consider scared old folk worried about the fires funny? Yeah LOL. LOL LOL.


----------



## Paris Garters (Aug 8, 2011)

bit of news from a friend in Leeds: someone got shot in chapeltown, police showed up with dogs and 'tried to antagonise' the crowd, who didn't rise to it.

e2a it all seems calm now. can't help but be interested In the behaviour of the cops though.


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## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> Another one part of the problem not the solution. LOL away, you fucking vegetable.
> 
> You consider scared old folk worried about the fires funny? Yeah LOL. LOL LOL.


NO-ONE finds it funny pk, it's simply that writing of 1000s of disaffected youth simply won't help.
This is about rather more than them being 'scum', or whatever.
I'm right in the middle of East London,and I'm scared. And tottenham - a place I care about - is in ruins.
You think I'm enjoying this? i can assure you that I'm not


----------



## cantsin (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> urban75 - this could have been your moment. New forum software and everything. I'm better off on Twitter, this is a joke.
> Even the fuckin BBC is more useful.



you wont be missed


----------



## kenny g (Aug 8, 2011)

PK shows his true colours- what a surprise.


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> Another one part of the problem not the solution. LOL away, you fucking vegetable.
> 
> You consider scared old folk worried about the fires funny? Yeah LOL. LOL LOL.



He/she didn't even imply that they were laughing at anyone other than you.


----------



## Corax (Aug 8, 2011)

noodles said:


> Well, I assumed that you'd read the other reply I posted so I stand corrected if you had not. I'm not laying on any psychology, pseduo or otherwise. What do you think - what does separate them?


Could be any one of a host of things - a parent who emphasised certain things, an inspiring teacher, a certain reading of their faith, and countless other possibilities.

But the shitter the environment, the more the positive aspects in someone's life have to contend with negative ones, and the more people are likely to feel that this kind of thing is acceptable. It's not a zero-sum game, it's not black and white, it's not that a certain environment will nurture _*only*_ one type of person, it's that it will nurture _*more*_ of a particular mindset. Citing examples of people that have managed to overcome the conditions they've been raised in doesn't mean that the environment isn't largely responsible for those that haven't.

That riots like this only tend to happen in places of poverty and it's associated characteristics has a reason. If it's not the environment that they are living in then what is it?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

noodles said:


> So what separates the thousands of people who grew up in identical circumstances to these rioters, from the rioters themselves?


because some of the rioters - as I have said repeatedly - ARE scumbags.
Because some people express their anger, frustration and resentment in different ways to others?
Because people have different outlooks due to different parenting?
because some are more angry than others?
because some are more desperate than others?
because we all have different lives, and different stories?
there are _loads_ of different reasons, but either way, the fact that a HUGE, massive number of the youth in quite a few now of London's most impoverished neighbourhoods have taken to the streets indicates that this isn't just a few evil-doers, as your incredibly simplistic black-and-white outlook would seem to have it.
Now, as I have answered your post, how about you have the decency to giove a PROPER answer to my question, and not the sub-_Daily Mail_-esque answer above.
I repeat:



> so why do you think these riots are happening in impoverished Tottenham, hackney, Lewisham, and not in esher or ascot, hmm?
> Ever thought there might be some complex social and economic causal factors?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Teepee said:


> So they burn down foot locker and a furniture shop? They are angry, yes. But they are also fucking stupid and thoughtless.


many are, yes. And since when is it surprising that the youth lose their heads, and do stupid and thoughtless things?


----------



## noodles (Aug 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> Could be any one of a host of things - a parent who emphasised certain things, an inspiring teacher, a certain reading of their faith, and countless other possibilities.
> 
> But the shitter the environment, the more the positive aspects in someone's life have to contend with negative ones, and the more people are likely to feel that this kind of thing is acceptable. It's not a zero-sum game, it's not black and white, it's not that a certain environment will nurture _*only*_ one type of person, it's that it will nurture _*more*_ of a particular mindset. Citing examples of people that have managed to overcome the conditions they've been raised in doesn't mean that the environment isn't largely responsible for those that haven't.
> 
> That riots like this only tend to happen in places of poverty and it's associated characteristics has a reason. If it's not the environment that they are living in then what is it?



But again, thse morons are in the tiny minority. Is it poverty that leads to violence or is it the case that individuals who are spiteful, ignorant bullies become/remain impoverished? It might not be particularly reassuring to think that some people are just nasty cunts rather than a product of their environment, but what else is there to separate these dozens of people from the millions of others raised in similar circumstances really?


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> NO-ONE finds it funny pk, it's simply that writing of 100s of disaffected youth simply won't help.
> This is about rather more than them being 'scum', or whatever.
> I'm right in the middle of East London,and I'm scared. And tottenham - a place I care about - is in ruins.
> You think I'm enjoying this? i can assure you that I'm not



eh? when the fuck was I talking to you?? swerve on


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 8, 2011)

noodles said:


> But again, thse morons are in the tiny minority. Is it poverty that leads to violence or is it the case that individuals who are spiteful, ignorant bullies become/remain impoverished? It might not be particularly reassuring to think that some people are just nasty cunts rather than a product of their environment, but what else is there to separate these dozens of people from the millions of others raised in similar circumstances really?


 
Blame the poor for being poor ?


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> He/she didn't even imply that they were laughing at anyone other than you.



I just resent the armchair anarchist. Anyone with bollocks would be helping people in this. Normal stuff. Maybe nobody here is anything to do with Croydon. I've had a fucking day of it, I can tell you, maybe I'm just not making sense, whatever


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 8, 2011)

-
9.26pm: Peter Walker has more from Catford.
I just watched an extraordinary scene in Catford, maybe half a mile from the main trouble. With the police occupied a small group of young men decided to kick down the door of a Halfords store, in full view of the busy South Circular road. As they tried and tried - the shutters were tough - a crowd formed, and cars stopped. One young woman leaned out of her car, laughing: "Satnav! I want a satnav!" she yelled at them.


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> I just resent the armchair anarchist. Anyone with bollocks would be helping people in this. Normal stuff. Maybe nobody here is anything to do with Croydon. I've had a fucking day of it, I can tell you, maybe I'm just not making sense, whatever


What convinces you that folk here AREN'T doing things to help ?


----------



## faux pas (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> many are, yes. And since when is it surprising that the youth lose their heads, and do stupid and thoughtless things?


So fucking understanding. You'd be understanding right to the end, wouldn't you! The end of all of us.

'Stupid and thoughtless' is getting too pissed one night and fucking your ex. This is putting people's lives at risk!

So fucking understanding of such base acts! It's because of people like you that the police have their hands tied and all they can do is stand there and watch us all become victims of the devastation!


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> How do you think they should be dealt with right now then, Jez?


I honestly don't know - yet.
but I do know how we DON'T deal with them - by writing a whole generation of inner city kids off as 'scum', by demonising and vilifying them, or turning their estates into a Police State, and seeing this purely as a law & order problem, and sending the cops in to tame them (this problem was started by the police!)
because they _aren't_ scum; they're simply youth who have grown up at the hard end, with fewer reasons to adhere to the rules of a society that offers them diddly, and less to lose by raising two fingers to the whole damn lot.
My heart breaks when I see kids here, or in Tottenham - no-one's ever given a fuck about them, paid them attention, given them opportunities, or simply made them feel they're _someone_ or _something._
Plus - endless harassment by the cops.
And now these cuts hit their families hardest.
We really shouldn't be surprised when they riot.


----------



## noodles (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> a HUGE, massive number of the youth in quite a few now of London's most impoverished neighbourhoods have taken to the streets



is it a "HUGE, massive number" really? Looks like a tiny proportion to me. I am not prepared to tar a whole generation of kids because of the actions of a few of their most ignorant peers.



Streathamite said:


> indicates that this isn't just a few evil-doers, as your incredibly simplistic black-and-white outlook would seem to have it.



I don't see anything particularly black-and-white in what I have posted. I wanted to know what separates the minority of these morons from the vast majority of their peers. Doesn't look like anyone can shed any light on that on this thread.



Streathamite said:


> Now, as I have answered your post, how about you have the decency to giove a PROPER answer to my question, and not the sub-_Daily Mail_-esque answer above.
> I repeat:



There are complex social and economic causal factors. But, unpleasant as it may be to come to this conclusion, I also happen to think that some people are just nasty evil cunts and to ascribe _all_ these actions to their upbringing is wrong.


----------



## Corax (Aug 8, 2011)

noodles said:


> But again, thse morons are in the tiny minority. Is it poverty that leads to violence or is it the case that individuals who are spiteful, ignorant bullies become/remain impoverished? It might not be particularly reassuring to think that some people are just nasty cunts rather than a product of their environment, but what else is there to separate these dozens of people from the millions of others raised in similar circumstances really?


On the contrary, I think it's far easier for you to hold tight to the idea that it's all because some people are just naturally violent and thuggish than to confront the fact that the state systematically fucks people over.

Like I said, it's either nature or nurture.  And your post above essentially states that it's nature, that these people are genetically evil.  What's more, you're claiming that this is the reason they're poor.

It's one for posterity, truly.


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 8, 2011)

faux pas said:


> So fucking understanding. You'd be understanding right to the end, wouldn't you! The end of all of us.
> 
> 'Stupid and thoughtless' is getting too pissed one night and fucking your ex. This is putting people's lives at risk!
> 
> So fucking understanding of such base acts! It's because of people like you that the police have their hands tied and all they can do is stand there and watch us all become victims of the devastation!


 
Yea !!! We all KNOW it's all Streth's fault !


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> speculate away.meanwhile your fucking precious working classes are suffering and scared.I'm off to Croydon.Fuck anyone nearby who isn't trying to help the most vulnerable in this chav looting shit.


do you have any reason to believe people AREN'T doing what they can to help?


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

Cameron will certainly speed up his plans to expand the National Guard, er T.A


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

No Newsnight tonight to give us some decent analysis of whats happening...


----------



## noodles (Aug 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> On the contrary, I think it's far easier for you to hold tight to the idea that it's all because some people are just naturally violent and thuggish than to confront the fact that the state systematically fucks people over.



I didn't say that it was "all because some people are naturally violent" - see my reply to Strathamite. So you don't think some people are naturally violent and thuggish? Why not? Because it's not something which is particularly pleasant to contemplate? Or are there other reasons?



Corax said:


> Like I said, it's either nature or nurture. And your post above essentially states that it's nature, that these people are genetically evil. What's more, you're claiming that this is the reason they're poor.



Why is it "either" nature or nuture? It it not possible to be some combination of the two?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

faux pas said:


> So fucking understanding. You'd be understanding right to the end, wouldn't you! The end of all of us.
> 
> 'Stupid and thoughtless' is getting too pissed one night and fucking your ex. This is putting people's lives at risk!
> 
> So fucking understanding of such base acts! It's because of people like you that the police have their hands tied and all they can do is stand there and watch us all become victims of the devastation!


Normally I'd answer with a measured, thoughtful reply.
however, you sir, are such a complete and utter brain-damaged moron that such things would be wasted on you. go and crawl back under your rock with your copy of the _Sun_ and your _Janet & John guide to modern society_, there's a good chap, reasoned, adult debate is not for you.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

noodles said:


> Why is it "either" nature or nuture? It it not possible to be some combination of the two?


of course it is! However, it's different in each and every individual case, and difficult to quantify - so it makes more sense to focus on the bit we can do something about - the wider socioeconomic context.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Really sad seeing the poor woman on BBC who lost her flat and all her belongings in the building that was set on fire.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 8, 2011)

Wonder if there'll be anyone done afterwards for deliberately torching there shop for the insurance. Failing businesses etc.


----------



## grit (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> Really sad seeing the poor woman on BBC who lost her flat and all her belongings in the building that was set on fire.


Yes when a face and personal story is put on it, it just makes it all the more depressing.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 8, 2011)

noodles said:


> But again, thse morons are in the tiny minority. Is it poverty that leads to violence or is it the case that individuals who are spiteful, ignorant bullies become/remain impoverished? It might not be particularly reassuring to think that some people are just nasty cunts rather than a product of their environment, but what else is there to separate these dozens of people from the millions of others raised in similar circumstances really?


Noodles, look again - this is a LOT more than 'dozens', taken in the round.


----------



## noodles (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> of course it is! However, it's different in each and every individual case, and difficult to quantify - so it makes more sense to focus on the bit we can do something about - the wider socioeconomic context.



Well, but I don't agree that there is nothing that can be done in terms of the "nature" element. We're not talking eugenics or anything before more words are stuffed into my mouth. Sure, more work can be done on "prevention" re: the nurture element but a healthy dose of "cure" is surely in order re: nature for some of these cunts - i.e. long custodial sentences.


----------



## noodles (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Noodles, look again - this is a LOT more than 'dozens', taken in the round.



Sure, but proportionally speaking - tiny. Like I said before, I think some people are keen to lump a whole generation in with thse twats. And I don't think that that is correct or desirable.


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

This is Thatcher's legacy. This is what happens when you let an idiot like Maggie slash education spending in the 1980's.

This is Cameron's shit to deal with. Castrato Clegg can fuck off. Education was and still is as vital an industry as any manufacturing base. She killed it along with mining.

Yeah great work. Now look.


----------



## Corax (Aug 8, 2011)

noodles said:


> I didn't say that it was "all because some people are naturally violent" - see my reply to Strathamite. So you don't think some people are naturally violent and thuggish? Why not? Because it's not something which is particularly pleasant to contemplate? Or are there other reasons?
> 
> Why is it "either" nature or nuture? It it not possible to be some combination of the two?



You're being deliberately obtuse for the sake of arguing now.  No thanks.


----------



## pk (Aug 8, 2011)

Where the fuck are the teargas/watercannon? This is basic stuff. News of the World would have loved this.

A quantum of anger in these youths must surely be from watching the likes of Wade/Brooks and Murdoch get away with crimes that they would be on lockdown for...


----------



## noodles (Aug 8, 2011)

Corax said:


> You're being deliberately obtuse for the sake of arguing now. No thanks.



I don't think that I was being particularly obtuse, I have to say. You were, or at least were very close to, misrepresenting what I actually posted though so I won't apologise for trying to bring you up on those points.


----------



## past caring (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> speculate away.meanwhile your fucking precious working classes are suffering and scared.I'm off to Croydon.Fuck anyone nearby who isn't trying to help the most vulnerable in this chav looting shit.









pk - the half-baked crusader.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> Wonder if there'll be anyone done afterwards for deliberately torching there shop for the insurance. Failing businesses etc.



I'm pretty sure they'll be out of luck.

Most insurance policies exclude claims for damage caused by civil unrest/rioting.

Chances are these people whose homes and businesses are going up in smoke are losing everything, even if they were insured.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> Where the fuck are the teargas/watercannon? This is basic stuff. News of the World would have loved this.



I don't think we have water cannon on the mainland, at least that's what some 'expert' was saying on the BBC.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> I'm pretty sure they'll be out of luck.
> 
> Most insurance policies exclude claims for damage caused by civil unrest/rioting.
> 
> Chances are these people whose homes and businesses are going up in smoke are losing everything, even if they were insured.



I think they can going get out of paying if it's officially declared a riot, then the state picks up the bill.


----------



## noodles (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> I'm pretty sure they'll be out of luck.
> 
> Most insurance policies exclude claims for damage caused by civil unrest/rioting.
> 
> Chances are these people whose homes and businesses are going up in smoke are losing everything, even if they were insured.



Nope. Most home policies (not sure re: commercial) do not exclude loss arising from riot damage - there is no reason to, as if they indemnify a policyholder for riot damage then they can recover their outlay through subrogation under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886. Those who are uninsured can also recover their losses under the same Act.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 8, 2011)

mad drawings




http://twitpic.com/photos/CarlosLatuff




http://droneboy.tumblr.com/post/8658014234/peace-in-london-droneboy-laundry


----------



## cantsin (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I honestly don't know - yet.
> but I do know how we DON'T deal with them - by writing a whole generation of inner city kids off as 'scum', by demonising and vilifying them, or turning their estates into a Police State, and seeing this purely as a law & order problem, and sending the cops in to tame them (this problem was started by the police!)
> because they _aren't_ scum; they're simply youth who have grown up at the hard end, with fewer reasons to adhere to the rules of a society that offers them diddly, and less to lose by raising two fingers to the whole damn lot.
> My heart breaks when I see kids here, or in Tottenham - no-one's ever given a fuck about them, paid them attention, given them opportunities, or simply made them feel they're _someone_ or _something._
> ...



chances of shitemaster actually coming back with a coherent response to this ? low I'd guess....


----------



## Paris Garters (Aug 8, 2011)

Al jhazeera is reporting looting in Leeds,  but no details. Quite a lot about Birmingham here

http://birminghamriots2011.tumblr.com/

although some reports are questionable, such as 'they're sawing the head off the bull'.


----------



## ch750536 (Aug 8, 2011)

Generally speaking :
Happy people with something to lose don't riot.
People who have the piss taken out of them get angry.
People scared of losing their status don't want change.

Also
Worst speech ever from home secretary this evening. How not to connect people. Was almost like she was purposely trying to bait people.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 8, 2011)

*Pointless pointless looters. Where's the real politics? Southern Europe and North Africa put us to shame, they have just as much disaffection but they don't express it by helping themselves to poxy fucking trainers. I may change my tune if gangs of hoodies emerge from Waterstones with Kropotkin biographies.*


----------



## Griff (Aug 8, 2011)

I lived in 'poor' East London as a kid in multi-cultural Waltham Forest, people dealt with it, no youth centres in the late '70s/'80 and very little crime to be honest. Fuck all this shit, looting and the like, shitting on their own doorsteps is pathetic.

It's a far deeper problem that needs to be addressed, and I have no explanation or answer to it, but there are parts of London that are really fucked, and it's a problem that's going to need a lot of work, gangs etc. The whole lack of aspiration apart from a mobile/pair of trainers ideal is just disturbing.

Worriying to even hear on the news of 'bringing the army in'.

Serious shit that needs sorting out.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 8, 2011)

worrying tweet


> *@PaulLewis*
> 
> 
> Paul Lewis
> Kingsland Road chaotic as Turkish men attack other, predominantly black, youths with sticks, metal barricades and bricks. #hackney


----------



## Corax (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> I'm pretty sure they'll be out of luck.
> 
> Most insurance policies exclude claims for damage caused by civil unrest/rioting.
> 
> Chances are these people whose homes and businesses are going up in smoke are losing everything, even if they were insured.


I was wondering about that.  The state needs to sort them out if this is the case, they're the ones we pay to protect us from having our homes torched.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I honestly don't know - yet.
> but I do know how we DON'T deal with them - by writing a whole generation of inner city kids off as 'scum', by demonising and vilifying them, or turning their estates into a Police State, and seeing this purely as a law & order problem, and sending the cops in to tame them (this problem was started by the police!)
> because they _aren't_ scum; they're simply youth who have grown up at the hard end, with fewer reasons to adhere to the rules of a society that offers them diddly, and less to lose by raising two fingers to the whole damn lot.
> My heart breaks when I see kids here, or in Tottenham - no-one's ever given a fuck about them, paid them attention, given them opportunities, or simply made them feel they're _someone_ or _something._
> ...



Hold on though, some are, some aren't, you said that yourself. So what should be done immediately to stop the violence and looting?

Heavier policing? Let them get on with it?

It's all very well and noble seeking to understand the reasons behind the violence, but what about the people who aren't rioting who are being fucked by it?

What should the police do NOW?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> I think they can going get out of paying if it's officially declared a riot, then the state picks up the bill.





noodles said:


> Nope. Most home policies (not sure re: commercial) do not exclude loss arising from riot damage - there is no reason to, as if they indemnify a policyholder for riot damage then they can recover their outlay through subrogation under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886. Those who are uninsured can also recover their losses under the same Act.



Gotcha. Cheers.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

cantsin said:


> chances of shitemaster actually coming back with a coherent response to this ?



Did you type that one handed while wanking over YouTube videos of burning buildings, Catshit? 

Shouldn't you be threatening people by PM anyway, you keyboard warrior nonce?


----------



## Paris Garters (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Did you type that one handed while wanking over YouTube videos of burning buildings, Catshit?
> 
> Shouldn't you be threatening people by PM anyway, you keyboard warrior nonce?



I knew there was a reason I hadn't been on urban for years.  it was to avoid having to wade through this sort of  shite.  FFS.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Paris Garters said:


> I knew there was a reason I hadn't been on urban for years. it was to avoid having to wade through this sort of Shite. Jesus.


I'd be grateful if you didn't judge us all on those posts!


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

'A gang of vandals broke the windows of an Islamic bank in Whitechapel but were chased off by a rival gang of 100 Muslim youths who are standing guard outside the East London Mosque. Local shops have been attacked'

along with the post above this is a very worrying development


----------



## cantsin (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Did you type that one handed while wanking over YouTube videos of burning buildings, Catshit?
> 
> Shouldn't you be threatening people by PM anyway, you keyboard warrior nonce?



I've said it on here, + said it by PM,  I'll say it again, if you ever want to meet up and call me a nonce to my face, plse say - if not, leave if out, it's repulsive, even for you, and as the poster pointed out, offputting for everyone.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Flanflinger said:


> And these fuckers wonder why no one will employ them.



Cart before horse, arsewipe. Cart before horse.


----------



## Paris Garters (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> I'd be grateful if you didn't judge us all on those posts!


I don't : )


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

cantsin said:


> I've said it on here, + said it by PM, I'll say it again, if you ever want to meet up and call me a nonce to my face, plse say ...



 Wanker.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'A gang of vandals broke the windows of an Islamic bank in Whitechapel but were chased off by a rival gang of 100 Muslim youths who are standing guard outside the East London Mosque. Local shops have been attacked'
> 
> along with the post above this is a very worrying development


Why is the local community defending its property against vandals a worrying development?


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> '_The supposed 6pm disturbance in Birmingham that was being rumoured on social networking sits has failed to materialised so far, West Midlands police said. _
> _A spokesman said that they had received calls about a large crowd building in the city centre, accompanied by a sizeable police presence, but this was for a public balcony appearance by the India cricket team. _
> _He said there had been no confirmed incidents of violence so far linked to events in London.'_


Looks like that report was premature. No?


----------



## rekil (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> Why is the local community defending its property against vandals a worrying development?


Bloody immigrants. Coming over here, defending our boroughs & communities.

/nicked off twitter


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> Seems to me it won't be long before army are authorised to go in with rubber bullets.



You're dreaming. The police may be authorised to use gas and baton rounds, but May is hardly likely to authorise martial law yet-a-while.



> Bring in the military, someone needs to stop this bullshit and the cops are too scared or too keen to let it all happen.



Who would they "bring in"? Military manpower is stretched right the way through the organisations anyway. Where are the extra bodies going to be conjured up from?



> I predict that the proposed cuts to police services won't happen now.



So people have been saying for the last couple of days, you _avant-gardeist_, you!


----------



## Starflesh (Aug 8, 2011)

I blame the Olympics, inspiring all these children to get more exercise.


----------



## belboid (Aug 8, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Looks like that report was premature. No?


how many times has treelover posted up some 'news' that has almost immediately been shown to be nonsense? and how many times has he had the grace to admit it and apologise?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Can they fuck.What, anywhere? Bring out your horses anyway.



Now, where did I put me Wapping souvenir marbles?


----------



## cantsin (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> Why is the local community defending its property against vandals a worrying development?



Inter racial /inter communal violence isnt exactly an encouraging new devpt Ed....


----------



## Garek (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're dreaming. The police may be authorised to use gas and baton rounds, but May is hardly likely to authorise martial law yet-a-while.



That reminds me. Gas is very unlikely to happen because it would require the police to wear gas masks, something which they are in no way used to. You'll have riots cops collapsed all over the place with exhaustion if gas is deployed.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

belboid said:


> how many times has treelover posted up some 'news' that has almost immediately been shown to be nonsense? and how many times has he had the grace to admit it and apologise?



True. The boy never learns.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> better than Jody Macintyre's inane demand for people to rise up and have a go at "the feds" on twitter last night


He got sacked today.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 8, 2011)

cantsin said:


> Inter racial /inter communal violence isnt exactly an encouraging new devpt Ed....


there was the kingsland road? turkish? incident mentioned in the hackney thread also.
yes, i do worry that this might do damage long term to 'race relations' - one thing london has been proud of to date imo - lets hope not.


----------



## Paris Garters (Aug 8, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Looks like that report was premature. No?



repost from earlier :

http://birminghamriots2011.tumblr.com/

not all reliable, but there's a lot of reports.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2011)

the packs in full flow now, targets in sight...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

pk said:


> Where the fuck are the teargas/watercannon? This is basic stuff. News of the World would have loved this.



Can't be deployed without Home Office authorisation. Make of that what you will.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2011)

Paris Garters said:


> repost from earlier :
> 
> http://birminghamriots2011.tumblr.com/
> 
> not all reliable, but there's a lot of reports.


Just saw Clare Marshall on Newsnight earlier saying that there had been looting.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Raining at last in Croydon


----------



## treelover (Aug 9, 2011)

FFS, sky are reporting looters are breaking into people homes, even bedrooms, in Croydon...


----------



## IC3D (Aug 9, 2011)

Going off in Wood Green/Turnpike Lane again


----------



## treelover (Aug 9, 2011)

BBC, Sky Journalists breaking down live, visibly distraught...


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 9, 2011)

crazy isn't it. simply crazy.


----------



## Tankus (Aug 9, 2011)

mob (about 50 poss) just went past my flat ...alarms going off in Walthamstow ....no police at all


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2011)

Residents being evacuated from homes in part of Clapham Junction.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Griff said:


> I lived in 'poor' East London as a kid in multi-cultural Waltham Forest, people dealt with it, no youth centres in the late '70s/'80 and very little crime to be honest. Fuck all this shit, looting and the like, shitting on their own doorsteps is pathetic.
> 
> It's a far deeper problem that needs to be addressed, and I have no explanation or answer to it, but there are parts of London that are really fucked, and it's a problem that's going to need a lot of work, gangs etc. The whole lack of aspiration apart from a mobile/pair of trainers ideal is just disturbing.
> 
> ...



Exactly this, nice one.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Residents being evacuated from homes in part of Clapham Junction.



All evacuated. Flats above a party shop, they were nicking masks, fire crews worried about helium canisters.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

They're burning to get rid of DNA


----------



## T & P (Aug 9, 2011)

Live pictures of clapham on Sky right now


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 9, 2011)

T & P said:


> Live pictures of clapham on Sky right now



How very dare them, I am in bed!


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're dreaming.
> So people have been saying for the last couple of days, you _avant-gardeist_, you!



Oh come on, you don't expect me to actually read these threads?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2011)

Chalk Farm and Camden too according to the BBC.


----------



## miktheword (Aug 9, 2011)

cantsin said:


> Inter racial /inter communal violence isnt exactly an encouraging new devpt Ed....


(just an aside) yeah, but no suprise. Remember when Tottenham's football firm, 99/2000ish? wanted a row after a match; other lot wouldn't oblige (not many did at that time) so some started it with the local Turks in the kebab shops on the High Road, with 8 of the firm getting stabbed. Big Kurdish independence group around there too. news of them getting tooled up was on main news yesterday.
must di out Spike Lee's 'Do the Right Thing'.  One of Tottenham's strengths is the lack of inter racial stuff...don't even think this is racial, just those who own shops defending themselves...and they've probably been on the receiving end of military policing as well over the years.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

This is way past the 80's riots ...

Camden is almost (actually is these days) into posh people's London.


----------



## past caring (Aug 9, 2011)

treelover said:


> FFS, sky are reporting looters are breaking into people homes, even bedrooms, in Croydon...



And if there's a new hight of hysteria anywhere in the media, we can guarantee that you'll post it here.

The left! The muslims! The looters! The net-curtains!


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> This is way past the 80's riots ...
> 
> Camden is almost (actually is these days) into posh people's London.



As is Ealing.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

past caring said:


> And if there's a new hight of hysteria anywhere in the media, we can guarantee that you'll post it here.
> 
> The left! The muslims! The looters! The net-curtains!



Yeah, jesus Treelover you sound like you're getting your info from Harry's Place these days.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> As is Ealing.



Well, I'd rather see the Bank of England or Bond Street on fire than some poor sods flat in Dalston.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> This is way past the 80's riots ...
> 
> Camden is almost (actually is these days) into posh people's London.



Not familiar with Kentish Town then, no?


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

past caring said:


> And if there's a new hight of hysteria anywhere in the media, we can guarantee that you'll post it here.
> 
> The left! The muslims! The looters! The net-curtains!



What the fuck point are you actually trying to make here?

Go on. Pretend you're an educated adult and explain, if you can.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> Not familiar with Kentish Town then, no?



I used to live there


----------



## cantsin (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> Not familiar with Kentish Town then, no?



Kentish Town is full of £1m homes , but with Queens Crescent poor and fucked up bang in the middle


----------



## cantsin (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> What the fuck point are you actually trying to make here?
> 
> Go on. Pretend you're an educated adult and explain, if you can.


which bit of that are you not getting ? very straightfwd point.


----------



## past caring (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> What the fuck point are you actually trying to make here?
> 
> Go on. Pretend you're an educated adult and explain, if you can.



Have you tried thinking about it yet? Which word are you struggling with?


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Livingstone nailed it #BBC


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

past caring said:


> Have you tried thinking about it yet? Which word are you struggling with?



Cop out. You're a vegetable.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 9, 2011)

past caring said:


> Have you tried thinking about it yet? Which word are you struggling with?


most of them probably. fucking mental what's going on atm, it's sent a rocket of uncertainty up most right thinking people i reckon.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> Cop out. You're a vegetable.



Nobody but you and the EDL mentioned muslims. And net curtains, yeah. Because it's the twitchy middle classes losing their homes above shops, yes?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 9, 2011)

chatting to yourself there love?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> Not familiar with Kentish Town then, no?


that's where the labour former cabinet minister whose husband had something to do with berlusconi lives. she has a nice house. in fact much of kentish town is very nice.

even queen's crescent's improved over the last 20 years.


----------



## flickerx (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> Nobody but you and the EDL mentioned muslims. And net curtains, yeah. Because it's the twitchy middle classes losing their homes above shops, yes?



Thats hardly fair, loads of people live in small flats above shops, they're hardly middle class, e.g. the shops on the Walworth Road.


----------



## grit (Aug 9, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> This is way past the 80's riots ...
> 
> Camden is almost (actually is these days) into posh people's London.



Thats interesting I've only been in the uk a couple of years, how does this rate against the 80s?


----------



## treelover (Aug 9, 2011)

actually its frightening PT, it doesn't seem like the 80's riots which had some political direction, this is just nihilism and random violence, its like a whole class has been licence to do what they want..

and yes, people are being pulled out of cars, etc, it is on the newslines, Guardian, radio 5, etc..


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 9, 2011)

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=247307718625241

LOL


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

flickerx said:


> Thats hardly fair, loads of people live in small flats above shops, they're hardly middle class, e.g. the shops on the Walworth Road.


pk is being sarcastic. it's his highest form of wit.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 9, 2011)

http://twitpic.com/633c2d


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

treelover said:


> actually its frightening PT, it doesn't seem like the 80's riots which had some political direction, this is just nihilism and random violence, its like a whole class has been licence to do what they want..
> 
> and yes, people are being pulled out of cars, etc, it is on the newslines, Guardian, radio 5, etc..



As Shifty said earlier, if society doesn't care about you, why should you care about society?


----------



## treelover (Aug 9, 2011)

if it continues tomorrow, I predict vigilante squads will begin to appear, Sky just reporting crowds cheering the police.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

Well with the Tories in power, you know for sure that there are going to be riots, but these seem significantly more serious than the Thatcher-era riots.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 9, 2011)

ready on digital spy that loads of OB blocking all routes into the West End and have successfully turned back mobs ...which coud explain why they're thinner on the ground in local neighborhoods


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Best leave the cops and army out of it.

Best leave it to the armed drug gangs to settle the looting disputes.

They're your revolutionaries now. Must be sickening for an Egyptian to watch this.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

This thing is quite handy http://trendsmap.com/local/gb/london

Edit - I say handy and then check it out properly, maybe not so great.


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> Best leave the cops and army out of it.
> 
> Best leave it to the armed drug gangs to settle the looting disputes.
> 
> They're your revolutionaries now. Must be sickening for an Egyptian to watch this.



Get a grip


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

flickerx said:


> Thats hardly fair, loads of people live in small flats above shops, they're hardly middle class, e.g. the shops on the Walworth Road.



jesus wept. That's what they wan't you to believe love. Prince 'Arry 'imself lives above a chip shop in Neasden, swears he's Elvis. Don't be fooled. The nations rulers live above shops.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 9, 2011)

http://t.co/YZsi9B8

Sony warehouse in Enfield on fire.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 9, 2011)

riot map: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ms...&ll=51.558503,-0.055275&spn=0.114195,0.298691


----------



## Chuff (Aug 9, 2011)

over 90 separate areas on the google map, worst ever uprising in UK (barring the civil wars) and just starting to go national, also no army to speak of as they are all committed abroad


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 9, 2011)

Bristol now as well.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 9, 2011)

The carpetright building in tottenham is being demolished. A great loss, not only in terms of the building but also 26 affordable decent homes.


----------



## twentythreedom (Aug 9, 2011)

I've cracked the screen on my laptop, so if anyone knows of any decent machines going for cheap in the N. London area, please PM me. (this is a serious request btw).

Well, at least I'm not after a mac.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 9, 2011)

Kicked off last night, elderly neighbours terrified. This is not an uprising. To use that term is an insult to uprisings around the world. This is chaos. This is why we need to bear arms and form local militia. Or something.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

agricola said:


> The Guardian have some more on the Duggan shooting:​



Interesting what they conspicuously aren't saying ... anything whatsoever along the lines of: 'the non-police weapon had been fired'

You'd think it was pretty easy to tell whether it had or not. Strongly suggesting that it had not been fired.

We also have this:



> According to Sky the C019 firearms officer has said that he never claimed Duggan had shot at him.
> 
> The firearms officer is understood to have told investigators that he opened fire because he believed he was in danger from a lethal weapon. Two shots were fired, it is understood; one hit Duggan and one missed, lodging in another officer's radio.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/mark-duggan-handgun-lethal-weapon

Which rather makes nonsense of the all-too-predictable: 'brave cops in gun battle with evil gangsta' stories that the Met's partners-in-corruption at the Sun were coming out with last week ...

I don't think it's exactly a surprise that the grieving family of someone shot by the cops might get angry reading that sort of shit about them while waiting for any sort of coherent account of the events leading to his death from the cops and/or the IPCC ...


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 9, 2011)

twentythreedom said:


> I've cracked the screen on my laptop, so if anyone knows of any decent machines going for cheap in the N. London area, please PM me. (this is a serious request btw).
> 
> Well, at least I'm not after a mac.


Lol, the stuff inside the screen is toxic, y'know....


----------



## past caring (Aug 9, 2011)

treelover said:


> FFS, sky are reporting looters are breaking into people homes, even bedrooms, in Croydon...





pk said:


> Where the fuck are the teargas/watercannon? This is basic stuff. News of the World would have loved this.
> 
> A quantum of anger in these youths must surely be from watching the likes of Wade/Brooks and Murdoch get away with crimes that they would be on lockdown for...





krtek a houby said:


> Kicked off last night, elderly neighbours terrified. This is not an uprising. To use that term is an insult to uprisings around the world. This is chaos. This is why we need to bear arms and form local militia. Or something.


----------



## xes (Aug 9, 2011)




----------



## Giles (Aug 9, 2011)

We don't need these scumbags, and should throw them away like the useless antisocial shit that they are.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

Giles said:


> We don't need these scumbags, and should throw them away like the useless antisocial shit that they are.



I didn't realise you held that view of David Cameron (and presumably his cronies, given your use of the plural) maybe you aren't such a twat after all ...


----------



## Paris Garters (Aug 9, 2011)

cantsin said:


> ready on digital spy that loads of OB blocking all routes into the West End and have successfully turned back mobs ...which coud explain why they're thinner on the ground in local neighborhoods



ok,  so while the police are clearly doing little to intervene in protecting vulnerable peoples' homes,  they're busy forming blockades to stop groups getting into the wealthier areas. it also strikes me that they've had three days to bring in police from other areas (all I've heard of so far is a couple of choppers). I'm finding it hard to get past the idea that this is being allowed to happen. which is fucked enough in itself, but it's the possible motives that are making me jittery. (I'm not conpiracy-prone btw)

on the other hand, I'm glad to see ordinary people organising to defend themselves...while hoping that the kids will learn some lessons about boundaries - and recognising their actual enemies - instead of escalating into hideous revenge vortex.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Normally I'd answer with a measured, thoughtful reply.
> however, you sir, are such a complete and utter brain-damaged moron that such things would be wasted on you. go and crawl back under your rock with your copy of the _Sun_ and your _Janet & John guide to modern society_, there's a good chap, reasoned, adult debate is not for you.


Insults aside, I'm sure you're a nice enough person in person, but reading your posts really start to grate.

Sure, it's natural and right to try to look deeper and try to understand. But if fear of punishment and real hard deterrents is also a social requirement, then any fool can see it's needed right now.

We need to show them that this is not acceptable. They need to know that they can't do this and it's getting way too flipping late!

The police DO NOT HAVE THIS UNDER CONTROL! London's in flames and they stand and watch.

Tottenham was an absolute disgrace. But because the police pussyfooted around, the criminals around London are now having a field day! That's frightening, no? We need to stop them; not understand them.


----------



## Corax (Aug 9, 2011)

Suggesting that the police could do more to control the situation is an outrageous slur.  I mean, what on earth have they got to gain by allowing it to get out of hand?

[/deadpan]


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

We? Who is this we?


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Corax said:


> Suggesting that the police could do more to control the situation is an outrageous slur. I mean, what on earth have they got to gain by allowing it to get out of hand?
> 
> [/deadpan]


The police don't 'want it to get out of hand', obviously. They haven't effectively quelled this because, as the BBC 'social order expert' said last night, the police are frightened to even shove a 'protester'. Hence their 'tactics' are thus: standing around watching criminals run riot around London.


----------



## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> We need to stop them; not understand them.


welcome back, Mr Major


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> We? Who is this we?



Wow!

The police, via the government who represent us.


----------



## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> The police don't 'want it to get out of hand', obviously. They haven't effectively quelled this because, as the BBC 'social order expert' said last night, the police are frightened to even shove a 'protester'.


  

wow, truly thou art clueless


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> wow, truly thou art clueless



I was quoting a BBC expert on social order, so I guess it's you that's clueless.


----------



## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I was quoting a BBC expert on social order, so I guess it's you that's clueless.


well, you _claim_ you are.  But even if you are, mindlessly quoting them, as if you agree, is clearly fucking clueless, especially considering you could actually see them hitting protestors really rather hard whenever they got an actual opportunity. Y'know, simply using the evidence of your own eyes would have shown you the falisity of tht 'experts' opinion.  If they did, indeed, say what you claim.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> well, you _claim_ you are. But even if you are, mindlessly quoting them, as if you agree, is clearly fucking clueless, especially considering you could actually see them hitting protestors really rather hard whenever they got an actual opportunity. Y'know, simply using the evidence of your own eyes would have shown you the falisity of tht 'experts' opinion. If they did, indeed, say what you claim.


Right, I'm glad you said that. Now I know that you're the one who's actually clueless. Just encourage you to talk a little instead of throwing one-line insults about, really clears things up. So you saw an officer hit someone with a baton. Great! That's that then.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2011)

cantsin said:
			
		

> ready on digital spy that loads of OB blocking all routes into the West End and have successfully turned back mobs ...which coud explain why they're thinner on the ground in local neighborhoods





Paris Garters said:


> ok, so while the police are clearly doing little to intervene in protecting vulnerable peoples' homes, they're busy forming blockades to stop groups getting into the wealthier areas.



I'm not sure that the thinking regarding the blockading of the West End is necessarily about "wealthy areas" being protected vis-a-vis the residents. At this time of the year the West End is jam packed with tourists, and dense with high-value targets. Both the primary and secondary financial impacts of a rampage through the heart of town would be astronomical, and with limited resources, it's likely a more efficient use of manpower to protect a single high-value and obvious target, than it is to chase these chaps around countless outlying High Streets.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

Stop talking logically, please.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> I'm not sure that the thinking regarding the blockading of the West End is necessarily about "wealthy areas" being protected vis-a-vis the residents. At this time of the year the West End is jam packed with tourists, and dense with high-value targets. Both the primary and secondary financial impacts of a rampage through the heart of town would be astronomical, and with limited resources, it's likely a more efficient use of manpower to protect a single high-value and obvious target, than it is to chase these chaps around countless outlying High Streets.



Do you see why people might think there was a bit of a class implication though?

Especially if their 'outlying area' was on fire and the corporate centre of London wasn't?


----------



## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Right, I'm glad you said that. Now I know that you're the one who's actually clueless. Just encourage you to talk a little instead of throwing one-line insults about, really clears things up. So you saw an officer hit someone with a baton. Great! That's that then.


it does rather contradict the supposed thesis that the police are incapable of pushing somebody.

You seem to have gone rapidly from your preferred option of 'understanding less,' to 'understanding nothing at all'


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Do you see why people might think there was a bit of a class implication though?



Oh absolutely. But people who want to see class bias will see it in any situation.

There are plenty of other "wealthy areas" outside the West End that weren't protected. The point is that the West End would almost certainly have been hit had it not been given additional protection, it was possible for the police to afford that protection with limited resources, so they (correctly) did.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

*Forced to strip naked in the street: Shocking scenes as rioters steal clothes and rifle through bags as people make their way home*








http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024001/Forced-strip-naked-street-Shocking-scenes-rioters-steal-clothes-rifle-bags-people-make-way-home.html#ixzz1UWLLwmCr


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Warning disturbing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fsRwwQJdKjE


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Wow!
> 
> The police, via the government who represent us.



So when you say "we" you really mean "them"?

If that's the case then don't bother replying... I was only interested in what you thought "we" should do.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> it does rather contradict the supposed thesis that the police are incapable of pushing somebody.
> 
> You seem to have gone rapidly from your preferred option of 'understanding less,' to 'understanding nothing at all'



The police, believe it or not, don't think with one mind. They are coming from a position where shoving a 'protester' can lead to absolute uproar and this is ONE example as to how their approach can be affected. That was the point.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> So when you say "we" you really mean "them"?
> 
> If that's the case then don't bother replying... I was only interested in what you thought "we" should do.



Who is this 'we'?


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

That's what I asked you.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> That's what I asked you.


And I gave you an answer. So what 'we' are you referring to when you say: 'I was only interested in what you thought 'we' should do.'


----------



## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> The police, believe it or not, don't think with one mind. They are coming from a position where shoving a 'protester' can lead to absolute uproar and this is ONE example as to how their approach can be affected. That was the point.


That isn't 'a point', thats a bunch of confused thinking strung together to try and get your arse out of the fire you yourself built.

You're understanding less n less with each comment.  At this rate you'll be back in the womb before you get to 100 posts!


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> That isn't 'a point', thats a bunch of confused thinking strung together to try and get your arse out of the fire you yourself built.
> 
> You're understanding less n less with each comment. At this rate you'll be back in the womb before you get to 100 posts!



Okay, before I'm sucking my thumb in awe of your eternal fountain of understanding, tell me the point I was trying to make originally, if that wasn't the point.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

It wasn't a very good answer.

Look, it's not a difficult question... if you don't want to/can't answer then let's leave it there.

You said 'we need to stop them'

So I asked you who is the 'we' and how would 'we' 'stop them'.


----------



## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

lol, how the fuck should I know?  you just appeared to be spewing out whatever drivel was put in front of you.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 9, 2011)

xes said:


>


yes yes well done for posting it about a year after I did... post 2094... read the damn thread eh...


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> And I gave you an answer. So what 'we' are you referring to when you say: 'I was only interested in what you thought 'we' should do.'



It wasn't a very good answer.

Look, it's not a difficult question... if you don't want to/can't answer then let's leave it there.

You said 'we need to stop them'

So I asked you who is the 'we' and how would 'we' 'stop them'.

I'm not actually having a go at you, by the way, there are many many many social commentary posts on here... but almost nothing proactive. Nothing useful.

Answer my question... it may be useful.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> It wasn't a very good answer.
> 
> Look, it's not a difficult question... if you don't want to/can't answer then let's leave it there.
> 
> ...



Look, it's not a difficult question... if you don't want to/can't answer then let's leave it there. You said: 'I was only interested in what you thought 'we' should do.' So I asked you who is the 'we'.


----------



## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> yes yes well done for posting it about a year after I did... post 2094... read the damn thread eh...



nobody could be arsed to click on your link tho garfy, cos, well, cos you posted it


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Look, it's not a difficult question... if you don't want to/can't answer then let's leave it there. You said: 'I was only interested in what you thought 'we' should do.' So I asked you who is the 'we'.



Hmm.

Obviously you can't answer it and I'm wasting my time.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Obviously you can't answer it and I'm wasting my time.



Obviously you can't answer it and I'm wasting my time.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

My nine year old daughter uses that same tactic.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> lol, how the fuck should I know? you just appeared to be spewing out whatever drivel was put in front of you.


Oh, but you told me 'THAT wasn't the point', and now you're teling me you don't know. You, my friend, are a complete prat! Congratulations.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> My nine year old daughter uses that same tactic.


Well, you defined a 'we' of your own in response to my posts and at least I gave you an answer (obviously unsatisfactorily to you), whereas you couldn't answer the very same question you put to me.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

With all this "we" around... I beginning to think you're taking the piss...


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> With all this "we" around... I beginning to think you're taking the piss...


At least that's mildy funny


----------



## past caring (Aug 9, 2011)

So - we already have faux pas and Kizmet here talking to one another. Is there any way of inviting the other eejits (jer, treelover will do for starters) and confining them to this thread?


----------



## xes (Aug 9, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> yes yes well done for posting it about a year after I did... post 2094... read the damn thread eh...


Don't have time, internets down at home, last time I saw this thread yesterday, it had 41 pages. Fuck reading through 30 odd pages of this.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

Segregate the minorities, eh, Past it?


----------



## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Oh, but you told me 'THAT wasn't the point', and now you're teling me you don't know. You, my friend, are a complete prat! Congratulations.


No I didn't, I said you didn't make a point. Which is a very different thing.

It seems my other prediction is rapidly coming right tho, you _are_ understanding less n less each post, even basic English is beyond you now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Segregate the minorities, eh, Past it?


more like quarantine the afflicted.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

These are the kind of shitty thieves that need dealing with, one way or another. Karma definitely headed to many of these scumbags. Keep all the Twitter photos. Identify as many as possible. Lots of people going to get nicked soon.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> No I didn't, I said you didn't make a point. Which is a very different thing.
> 
> It seems my other prediction is rapidly coming right tho, you _are_ understanding less n less each post, even basic English is beyond you now.



'rapidly coming right tho'

'becoming right'?

lol what a dick


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> more like quarantine the afflicted.





if Intelligence is a disease... you seem to be immune to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> if Intelligence is a disease... you seem to be immune to it.


if it's true that no one dies before saying something sensible you must be one of the immortals.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> more like quarantine the afflicted.



LOL, like you or any other of the crowing fence-sitting wankers on the left have got any answers.

Maybe the looters just need a hug?


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 9, 2011)

So, is the army going to be sent in?


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 9, 2011)

Not according to Godwin (MET) just now on telly.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> if it's true that no one dies before saying something sensible you must be one of the immortals.



And if opinions are like arseholes... then you must be one giant opinion.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Idris2002 said:


> So, is the army going to be sent in?



What army? They going to fly troops home from Afghanistan?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> LOL, like you or any other of the crowing fence-sitting wankers on the left have got any answers.
> 
> Maybe the looters just need a hug?


like you're able to come up with a question worth an answer.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> No I didn't, I said you didn't make a point. Which is a very different thing.
> 
> It seems my other prediction is rapidly coming right tho, you _are_ understanding less n less each post, even basic English is beyond you now.


 
Btw, I believe you need a full stop after 'post'. You see, a new sentence follows, as you have a subject, verb and complement. Don't worry. It's a common error.


----------



## spartacus mills (Aug 9, 2011)

The acting Commissioner of the Met just said in his statement "stop it now!"
You tell 'em!!


----------



## Fruitloop (Aug 9, 2011)

a semicolon would suffice


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> What army? They going to fly troops home from Afghanistan?



IIRC, there are more British troops in NI than in Afghanistan.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Fruitloop said:


> a semicolon would suffice


Yes, or a semicolon, but then what would I know with my basic English deteriorating rapidly.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 9, 2011)

Idris2002 said:


> So, is the army going to be sent in?



I doubt that, one hell of a serious political hot spud-u-like.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> What army? They going to fly troops home from Afghanistan?


newsflash for thick wankstains: the majority of the british army is not in afghanistan


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

spartacus mills said:


> The acting Commissioner of the Met just said in his statement "stop it now!"
> You tell 'em!!



He was doing some very intimidating finger-wagging too ...


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 9, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> I doubt that, one hell of a serious political hot spud-u-like.



In normal circumstances, yes. . . but these are not normal circumstances.


----------



## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Btw, I believe you need a full stop after 'post'. You see, a new sentence follows, as you have a subject, verb and complement. Don't worry. It's a common error.


well, if you are clever enough still to work that out, you can also work out that you deliberately misquoted me earlier. I await your apology


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Btw, I believe you need a full stop after 'post'. You see, a new sentence follows, as you have a subject, verb and complement. Don't worry. It's a common error.



Christ you're a thick wanker, and one who clearly doesn't know what he's on about. Anyone who's ever been anywhere near a demo knows that police aren't "scared to touch protestors" or whatever the fuck it was, they're baton happy fruitcakes in the main. Though please do give an example of where an officer has been treated harshly after a demo, I'm all ears.

You ignorant prick.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> like you're able to come up with a question worth an answer.



How about a simple one, for a simpleton like you... what are the oh-so uber-intelligent so-called left wing doing in solidarity with working class people who are victims of the thieving gangs of kids?

Or perhaps more immediate - do YOU have any plans to defend yourself?
Or does your right-on "all property is theft, comrade" mantra extend to these kids when they're kicking YOUR door in?

Oh dear. That's three questions.
I'm sure your remedial little brain will be unable to answer any of them properly, but perhaps someone less of a useless limp prick than you might attempt to explain the position of the left, for those here keen to see a more direct and even a military response to the looting.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> well, if you are clever enough still to work that out, you can also work out that you deliberately misquoted me earlier. I await your apology


I await your apology. I'm not an idiot, believe it or not. You should try to engage with those who make points you don't like, instead of thinking you're a genius and cutting people off with throw-away insults. (Ofcourse, they probably will respond in kind too, as I did.)

I'm fucking worried. Like others, I have my whole family spread across London. I took the day off work because of it today. I want the best outcome, so don't assume I have two braincells because I don't agree with you on how to reach that outcome.


----------



## spartacus mills (Aug 9, 2011)

Wow, cracking statement from Cameron; "violence is sickening blah blah... more police..." finishing with "excuse me, I have important work to do"...


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

noodles said:


> Well, but I don't agree that there is nothing that can be done in terms of the "nature" element. We're not talking eugenics or anything before more words are stuffed into my mouth. Sure, more work can be done on "prevention" re: the nurture element but a healthy dose of "cure" is surely in order re: nature for some of these cunts - i.e. long custodial sentences.


The problem is; if I take your sub-_daily mail_, reactionary argument to its' logical conclusion, one is left with one overriding, unavoidable conclusion; the middle class youth of the home counties and of kensington etc are simply morally better than the working class youth of Tottenham, which is simply horseshit.
this is a social problem, not simply a law and order one. the solution is to provide facilities, opportunities and hope for a generation who have simply lost all faith in their society. 'Long custodial sentences' may appease the internet vigilantes amongst us, but it will do ZERo to solve Tottenham's problems, ditto Brixton and Hackney. ALL you will achieve by imposing such sentences is to criminalise and alienate an entire generation.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I await your apology. I'm not an idiot, believe it or not. You should try to engage with those who make points you don't like, instead of thinking you're a genius and cutting people off with throw-away insults. (Ofcourse, they probably will respond in kind too, as I did.)
> 
> I'm fucking worried. Like others, I have my whole family spread across London. I took the day off work because of it today. I want the best outcome, so don't assume I have two braincells because I don't agree with you on how to reach that outcome.


for my part, i don't assume you are an idiot because I disagree with you; i think you are an idiot because you clearly, patently are one, with the capacity for rational thought processes of a pot-plant, and all the well informed understanding of our society's problems of the average gibbon.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Christ you're a thick wanker, and one who clearly doesn't know what he's on about. Anyone who's ever been anywhere near a demo knows that police aren't "scared to touch protestors" or whatever the fuck it was, they're baton happy fruitcakes in the main. Though please do give an example of where an officer has been treated harshly after a demo, I'm all ears.
> 
> You ignorant prick.


LOL, such issues! This sort of dumbfuck response is so off-putting. Just be a good boy and fuck off, now, would you.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> eh? when the fuck was I talking to you?? swerve on


this is a bulletin board, not a private conversation. I, and anyone else, have the right to respond to any individual post of yours. if you can't handle that - tough.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> for my part, i don't assume you are an idiot because I disagree with you; i think you are an idiot because you clearly, patently are one, with the capacity for rational thought processes of a pot-plant, and all the well informed understanding of our society's problems of the average gibbon.


You're not worth it. You're just a piece of shit really. Thank God people as thick as you are in the minority.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

noodles said:


> Sure, but proportionally speaking - tiny. Like I said before, I think some people are keen to lump a whole generation in with thse twats. And I don't think that that is correct or desirable.


except it's not, when put in the context of each individual community. A very wide cross-section of Tottenham w/c youth (and not-so-youth) took to the streets - as anyone could predict they would. ditto brixton and hackney, ditto stokes croft some time ago. those numbers ARE representative of community sentiment. All the mindless demonising of these youth as 'morons' cannot hide the very real tension, resentment and frustration out there. we are in fact lucky that there have not been bigger riots.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> You're not worth it. You're just a piece of shit really. Thank God people as thick as you are in the minority.


run along, cretin, there's a good little neanderthal, go and wank over your copy of the police gazette.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> This is Thatcher's legacy. This is what happens when you let an idiot like Maggie slash education spending in the 1980's.
> 
> This is Cameron's shit to deal with. Castrato Clegg can fuck off. Education was and still is as vital an industry as any manufacturing base. She killed it along with mining.
> 
> Yeah great work. Now look.


absolutely 100% correct


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> run along, cretin, there's a good little neanderthal, go and wank over your copy of the police gazette.


Still haven't mastered a simple sentence, I see. What an unbelievably thick twat you are! LOL


----------



## Garek (Aug 9, 2011)

Idris2002 said:


> IIRC, there are more British troops in NI than in Afghanistan.



Germany isn't it? noI numbers are rather low these days.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 9, 2011)

Advice: If your post starts with the word "You" then consider just how much it adds to the actual topic at hand, and how much it adds to the weight of dick-fencing that swamps the topic at hand.


----------



## ericjarvis (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> The problem is; if I take your sub-_daily mail_, reactionary argument to its' logical conclusion, one is left with one overriding, unavoidable conclusion; the middle class youth of the home counties and of kensington etc are simply morally better than the working class youth of Tottenham, which is simply horseshit.
> this is a social problem, not simply a law and order one. the solution is to provide facilities, opportunities and hope for a generation who have simply lost all faith in their society. 'Long custodial sentences' may appease the internet vigilantes amongst us, but it will do ZERo to solve Tottenham's problems, ditto Brixton and Hackney. ALL you will achieve by imposing such sentences is to criminalise and alienate an entire generation.



It's even easier (and cheaper) to make a start. ALL that Cameron needed to do today to massively defuse the situation was to say that any police officer found guilty of misconduct in the shooting of Mark Duggan would also face the full force of the law. He didn't. So basically all he's done is thrown down the gauntlet and tell the youth of the inner cities that in the UK the law is upheld by force and only applies to the working classes.

Which isn't to condone looting and so on, but just to point out that we are ruled by people who make the average teenage internet troll appear almost sentient.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Hold on though, some are, some aren't, you said that yourself. So what should be done immediately to stop the violence and looting?
> 
> Heavier policing? Let them get on with it?
> 
> ...


tbh, the police have lost such cred, respect and authority with the youth - ESPECIALLY in Tottenham, for the reasons I've outlined _passim - _that anything they do is bound to be counter-productive. heavier policing will prolly just make things worse.
at some point, when all this shit is over, we REALLY need to clean up the utter mess that is the Met


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> It's even easier (and cheaper) to make a start. ALL that Cameron needed to do today to massively defuse the situation was to say that any police officer found guilty of misconduct in the shooting of Mark Duggan would also face the full force of the law. He didn't. So basically all he's done is thrown down the gauntlet and tell the youth of the inner cities that in the UK the law is upheld by force and only applies to the working classes.
> 
> Which isn't to condone looting and so on, but just to point out that we are ruled by people who make the average teenage internet troll appear almost sentient.


very good points eric - as ever.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Griff said:


> I lived in 'poor' East London as a kid in multi-cultural Waltham Forest, people dealt with it, no youth centres in the late '70s/'80 and very little crime to be honest. Fuck all this shit, looting and the like, shitting on their own doorsteps is pathetic.
> 
> It's a far deeper problem that needs to be addressed, and I have no explanation or answer to it, but there are parts of London that are really fucked, and it's a problem that's going to need a lot of work, gangs etc. The whole lack of aspiration apart from a mobile/pair of trainers ideal is just disturbing.
> 
> ...



Thing is, Griff, when we went through similar in the '70s and early '80s, there were at least a few diversions, like the vague possibility of a job. Unemplyment is as bad now as it ever got back then, but with the added kick in the bollocks that "youth services" as a whole have been slashed, and "job creation" doesn't even include sops like the YOP and YTS.

We were already teens when Thatcherism started. We weren't exposed to the same blanket of consumerist propaganda that they were. Fuck, we thought we were well cool if we had Dunlop Green Flash instead of black plimsolls for PE! Imagine what it might be like, to grow up with relentless examples of consumption shoved at you, and to have little or no means to participate in it yourself. I'm not saying this as an excuse or as a justification for some of the behavior, but I do offer it as *a* reason (among many) for some of it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Garek said:


> That reminds me. Gas is very unlikely to happen because it would require the police to wear gas masks, something which they are in no way used to. You'll have riots cops collapsed all over the place with exhaustion if gas is deployed.


 
Sounds good to me!


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

treelover said:


> actually its frightening PT, it doesn't seem like the 80's riots which had some political direction, this is just nihilism and random violence, its like a whole class has been licence to do what they want..
> 
> and yes, people are being pulled out of cars, etc, it is on the newslines, Guardian, radio 5, etc..


In short, a whole generation has given up on society and its' norms, and is finally going berserk. Not really surprising


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> It's even easier (and cheaper) to make a start. ALL that Cameron needed to do today to massively defuse the situation was to say that any police officer found guilty of misconduct in the shooting of Mark Duggan would also face the full force of the law. He didn't. So basically all he's done is thrown down the gauntlet and tell the youth of the inner cities that in the UK the law is upheld by force and only applies to the working classes.
> 
> Which isn't to condone looting and so on, but just to point out that we are ruled by people who make the average teenage internet troll appear almost sentient.



Of course, if Cameron said 'misconduct in the shooting of Mark Duggan would also face the full force of the law', that would massively defuse the situation! 

I can see it now. All the looters stopping in their tracks and dropping their Ipads and latest Adidas trainers.

A: 'It's alright, bro!, Prime Minisiter said about the Mark Duggan shit'

B: 'Who tha fuck's Mark Duggan?'


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> that's where the labour former cabinet minister whose husband had something to do with berlusconi lives. she has a nice house. in fact much of kentish town is very nice.
> 
> even queen's crescent's improved over the last 20 years.


Jowell? you sure that dreadful woman don't live in her constituency i.e. editor's?


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> In short, a whole generation has given up on society and its' norms, and is finally going berserk. Not really surprising



I said a similar thing on the reason thread.

This generation have watched our generation and learned.

What have we taught them?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Insults aside, I'm sure you're a nice enough person in person, but reading your posts really start to grate.
> 
> Sure, it's natural and right to try to look deeper and try to understand. But if fear of punishment and real hard deterrents is also a social requirement, then any fool can see it's needed right now.
> 
> ...


Have you ever actually BEEN to tottenham, or spent *any* time in that sort of innercity working class community that I have spent my whole adult life in? The police ARE the problem - they have totally lost the confidence of the community, due to their racism and harassment. This is NOT just about a tiny handful of mindless thugs, nor is it just a law & order problem - this is about a generation of deprived, resnetful kids who are watching their future sold up the river for the sake of the rich. No,they are not stupid, and yes they can read and write well en ough to be seriously pissed off.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> The police don't 'want it to get out of hand', obviously. They haven't effectively quelled this because, as the BBC 'social order expert' said last night, the police are frightened to even shove a 'protester'. Hence their 'tactics' are thus: standing around watching criminals run riot around London.


tory party conference thataway ===>>>>>


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 9, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> What have we taught them?



Very good question.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> What have we taught them?



Can't teach the unteachable. These looting pricks have likely been excluded from mainstream school several times over already.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Still haven't mastered a simple sentence, I see. What an unbelievably thick twat you are! LOL


is that the best you can do? do try and master thart of internet debate, there's a good little boy, cos you sure haven't mastered that of the art of reason.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Insults aside, I'm sure you're a nice enough person in person, but reading your posts really start to grate.
> 
> Sure, it's natural and right to try to look deeper and try to understand. But if fear of punishment and real hard deterrents is also a social requirement, then any fool can see it's needed right now.



Fucking hell, it's like listening to a village idiot gibbering.

Has it occurred to you that for some of those rioters "punishment and real hard deterrents" are, to borrow a phrase from Clement and La Frenais, "an occupational hazard"?



> We need to show them that this is not acceptable. They need to know that they can't do this and it's getting way too flipping late!



Who is this "we"? Are you going to be out there, dealing out birchings and "real hard deterrents", or will you be sitting behind your keyboard, masturbating?



> The police DO NOT HAVE THIS UNDER CONTROL! London's in flames and they stand and watch.



Have you asked yourself why?



> Tottenham was an absolute disgrace. But because the police pussyfooted around, the criminals around London are now having a field day! That's frightening, no? We need to stop them; not understand them.



More rhetoric, wind about criminals having a field day, and there being no need to understand.

Guess what? Unless you understand why, you're helpless to prevent recurrences, you cheese-witted bore.


----------



## trampie (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thing is, Griff, when we went through similar in the '70s and early '80s, there were at least a few diversions, like the vague possibility of a job. Unemplyment is as bad now as it ever got back then, but with the added kick in the bollocks that "youth services" as a whole have been slashed, and "job creation" doesn't even include sops like the YOP and YTS.
> 
> We were already teens when Thatcherism started. We weren't exposed to the same blanket of consumerist propaganda that they were. Fuck, we thought we were well cool if we had Dunlop Green Flash instead of black plimsolls for PE! Imagine what it might be like, to grow up with relentless examples of consumption shoved at you, and to have little or no means to participate in it yourself. I'm not saying this as an excuse or as a justification for some of the behavior, but I do offer it as *a* reason (among many) for some of it.


Good post.


----------



## trampie (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Have you ever actually BEEN to tottenham, or spent *any* time in that sort of innercity working class community that I have spent my whole adult life in? The police ARE the problem - they have totally lost the confidence of the community, due to their racism and harassment. This is NOT just about a tiny handful of mindless thugs, nor is it just a law & order problem - this is about a generation of deprived, resnetful kids who are watching their future sold up the river for the sake of the rich. No,they are not stupid, and yes they can read and write well en ough to be seriously pissed off.


Good post.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> The police don't 'want it to get out of hand', obviously. They haven't effectively quelled this because, as the BBC 'social order expert' said last night, the police are frightened to even shove a 'protester'. Hence their 'tactics' are thus: standing around watching criminals run riot around London.



Give yourself a laugh, look up the credentials of the Beeb's "social order expert".

It's nothing to do with police being "frightened to even shove a 'protester' ". In nearly 50 years I've *never* known a member of the Met to be shy about using physical force, even when it isn't necessary. Now, I'm sure that doesn't fit in with your peroration on "political correctness gone mad" (which is what this is, isn't it?), but it is a hard fact learned by a majority of London's working class, and by all of the BME communities.

They're "standing around", basically running a "work to rule", to make a political point, not because politically-correct health and safety policies prevent them from dishing out physical force, but because they want central government to re-think the financial cuts to the police services.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> They're "standing around", basically running a "work to rule", to make a political point, not because politically-correct health and safety policies prevent them from dishing out physical force, but because they want central government to re-think the financial cuts to the police services.



This is my take on it also.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Have you ever actually BEEN to tottenham, or spent *any* time in that sort of innercity working class community that I have spent my whole adult life in? The police ARE the problem - they have totally lost the confidence of the community, due to their racism and harassment. This is NOT just about a tiny handful of mindless thugs, nor is it just a law & order problem - this is about a generation of deprived, resnetful kids who are watching their future sold up the river for the sake of the rich. No,they are not stupid, and yes they can read and write well en ough to be seriously pissed off.



I lived in Tottenham for years - two places. Also I grew up near the Tottenham end of Forestreet (the border between Tottenham and Edmonton). There are probably a lot of people in Tottenham who don't trust the police. I probably don't disagree with a lot of what you have to say about the roots of the problem. Clearly, where we part company is our approach to this emergency. While London's in flames, I don't believe this disgusting behaviour should be dealt with in an understanding manner, else condone it and exacerbate it. You believe the opposite. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps heavy-handedness would exacerbate the problem. I don't believe anyone knows for sure. But I'm worried about sending the wrong message, as what they are doing is so principally wrong.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I was quoting a BBC expert on social order, so I guess it's you that's clueless.



No, you were quoting *in agreement*, which is a somewhat different thing than merely quoting.


----------



## Giles (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> The problem is; if I take your sub-_daily mail_, reactionary argument to its' logical conclusion, one is left with one overriding, unavoidable conclusion; the middle class youth of the home counties and of kensington etc are simply morally better than the working class youth of Tottenham, which is simply horseshit.
> this is a social problem, not simply a law and order one. the solution is to provide facilities, opportunities and hope for a generation who have simply lost all faith in their society. 'Long custodial sentences' may appease the internet vigilantes amongst us, but it will do ZERo to solve Tottenham's problems, ditto Brixton and Hackney. ALL you will achieve by imposing such sentences is to criminalise and alienate an entire generation.



Heaven forfend we "criminalise" people for such trivial matters as burning down a block of flats making families homeless as well as endangering their lives, putting dozens if not hundreds of people out of work by burning and looting their workplaces, and fighting with the police!

Young crims on the rob are just that: scum seeing an opportunity to take from people who work for a living and to trash their own neighbourhoods.

If these people want to make nothing but a mess of their lives, then that is their fault - not "societies".

Giles..


----------



## dylans (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Give yourself a laugh, look up the credentials of the Beeb's "social order expert".
> 
> It's nothing to do with police being "frightened to even shove a 'protester' ". In nearly 50 years I've *never* known a member of the Met to be shy about using physical force, even when it isn't necessary. Now, I'm sure that doesn't fit in with your peroration on "political correctness gone mad" (which is what this is, isn't it?), but it is a hard fact learned by a majority of London's working class, and by all of the BME communities.
> 
> They're "standing around", basically running a "work to rule", to make a political point, not because politically-correct health and safety policies prevent them from dishing out physical force, but because they want central government to re-think the financial cuts to the police services.



This was my thought on it when I watched the news this morning. Lines of cops standing ten metres from looters and watching.They are sending a message about what a reduced police force looks like.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Guess what? Unless you understand why, you're helpless to prevent recurrences, you cheese-witted bore.



I don't believe looking into the root causes is what we need right now, to deal with the situation. Not that we should never do so. But of course, you know it all, don't you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> for my part, i don't assume you are an idiot because I disagree with you; i think you are an idiot because you clearly, patently are one, with the capacity for rational thought processes of a pot-plant, and all the well informed understanding of our society's problems of the average gibbon.



Don't insult gibbons, please.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Don't insult gibbons, please.


Of course, as you feel such an innate affinity with them.


----------



## lizzieloo (Aug 9, 2011)

From a buddy on FB.....



> If we could all just focus now. THE OLYMPIC PARK NOW THAT WOULD MAKE A GOOD FIRE. ​



He makes a bloody good point


----------



## technocat (Aug 9, 2011)

yup, the police are definitely making a point, they are deliberately not trying due to the cuts, remember some of their jobs are on the line too......nothing to do with fear of reprisals and being politically correct....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I don't believe looking into the root causes is what we need right now, to deal with the situation.



Who said anything about "right now"?
Besides you, just now, obviously.
Could you try a *little* harder to not keep trimming your sails and shifting the goal-posts?

[





> Not that we should never do so. But of course, you know it all, don't you?



Good lord, the tactics of the primary school. What next when someone disagrees with you? What comes after "but of course, you know it all"? Are you going to stick a crayon up your nose? Maybe soil your underwear in an attempt to get attention?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> You're not worth it. You're just a piece of shit really. Thank God people as thick as you are in the minority.



Interesting. You project your own crassness and stupidity onto others, especially if they dare argue with you.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Who said anything about "right now"?
> Besides you, just now, obviously.
> Could you try a *little* harder to not keep trimming your sails and shifting the goal-posts?
> 
> Good lord, the tactics of the primary school. What next when someone disagrees with you? What comes after "but of course, you know it all"? Are you going to stick a crayon up your nose? Maybe soil your underwear in an attempt to get attention?



I was talking about 'right now'. But you assumed otherwise and said: 'Guess what? Unless you understand why, you're helpless to prevent recurrences, you cheese-witted bore'

Get it, genius?

Fuck, talking to you makes me feel I need to get a life, lol.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 9, 2011)

This is what happens when your enemy's friend becomes their enemy.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Interesting. You project your own crassness and stupidity onto others, especially if they dare argue with you.


You really, really are a fucking idiot. I mean 'really'!


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Fuck, talking to you makes me feel I need to get a life, lol.


you sure as hell need to get an intellect.
You might care to look up the phrase 'socio-economic causal factors' in some dictionary, or simply ask your teachers, whilst you're at it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Of course, as you feel such an innate affinity with them.



I feel affinity with most creatures capable of reflexivity, which is probably why I feel only contempt for you.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I feel affinity with most creatures capable of reflexivity, which is probably why I feel only contempt for you.


Oh that's a good one! Show your mum that one. Go on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> You really, really are a fucking idiot. I mean 'really'!



Wow, that told me!

Thing is, I'm able to support any argument I make on here with facts, all you've done is trot out a right-wing line about "sending a message".

So, who's the greater "fucking idiot"? I'd say that on the evidence of posts to this thread, you're way in the lead.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Oh that's a good one! Show your mum that one. Go on.



I can show yours, if you'd like.

When she's finished her shift at the massage parlour, like.


----------



## Corax (Aug 9, 2011)

Idris2002 said:


> So, is the army going to be sent in?


Not unless parliament's ablaze.  The headlines of the army being on the streets of London would have a catastrophic effect on the markets and international investment, and that will of course be Cameron's prime concern.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> you sure as hell need to get an intellect.
> You might care to look up the phrase 'socio-economic causal factors' in some dictionary, or simply ask your teachers, whilst you're at it.


Dictionaries don't normally list long phrases. But of course you wouldn't know that, would you?


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I can show yours, if you'd like.
> 
> When she's finished her shift at the massage parlour, like.


That's great boy. Why aren't you at school today?


----------



## Corax (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Dictionaries don't normally list long phrases. But of course you wouldn't know that, would you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I was talking about 'right now'. But you assumed otherwise and said: 'Guess what? Unless you understand why, you're helpless to prevent recurrences, you cheese-witted bore'
> 
> Get it, genius?



There's nothing like some decent _post-facto_ attempts at spin.

And you know what? That's nothing like a decent _post-facto_ attempt at spin. It sucks.



> Fuck, talking to you makes me feel I need to get a life, lol.



So you don't have a life?

Interesting but unsurprising.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Wow, that told me!
> 
> Thing is, I'm able to support any argument I make on here with facts,


Try doing it, then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Dictionaries don't normally list long phrases. But of course you wouldn't know that, would you?



Dictionaries like this list plenty of them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Try doing it, then.



I've done so.

What have you done? Posted a couple of diatribes about the need for strong-arm tactics by the authorities, and some tantrums.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Corax said:


> Not unless parliament's ablaze. The headlines of the army being on the streets of London would have a catastrophic effect on the markets and international investment, and that will of course be Cameron's prime concern.



Not just that, there are constitutional complications, such as the need to declare a form of martial law, and whether they do so for a confined and well-defined "zone", or go for a blanket declaration (which may then give _carte blanche_ to onlookers to "fuck shit up" in thir own, currently quiet, locales). Using the army to fight fires is one thing, engaging them in the "policing" of the British public is another.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's nothing like some decent _post-facto_ attempts at spin.
> 
> And you know what? That's nothing like a decent _post-facto_ attempt at spin. It sucks.


I haven't spun anything. Look through my posts. Of course, I wouldn't advocate not looking deeper - only it grates as the point of focus now while criminals run through the streets looting and burning. That was my point - but of course, you just come on here with the bravado bullshit of a thirteen year old.



ViolentPanda said:


> So you don't have a life?
> 
> Interesting but unsurprising.


Good one! So witty! You are a smart little boy, aren't you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> That's great boy. Why aren't you at school today?



I'm too busy pimping your mother and female relatives, obviously.

And by the way, schools are out for the summer holidays. That's one of the reasons for so many school-age youths being on the streets, in case you hadn't noticed.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2011)

This bloke in croydon who was shot and has just died - who shot him? Gang stuff? OB?


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm too busy pimping your mother and female relatives, obviously.
> 
> And by the way, schools are out for the summer holidays. That's one of the reasons for so many school-age youths being on the streets, in case you hadn't noticed.


ROFL good one! Good one there boy!


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've done so.
> 
> What have you done? Posted a couple of diatribes about the need for strong-arm tactics by the authorities, and some tantrums.


Where's your facts then, twat?


----------



## rover07 (Aug 9, 2011)

technocat said:


> yup, the police are definitely making a point, they are deliberately not trying due to the cuts, remember some of their jobs are on the line too......nothing to do with fear of reprisals and being politically correct....



I think a decision was made early on not to try and arrest people 'in the act'.

But 400+ were arrested, probably by snatch squads waiting to pounce on anyone carrying stolen stuff.

Its a new type of rioting for the police. They are trained to deal with pitched battles involving crowds of many thousands. Their kettling and snatch squad tactics are not possible. Small hit and run gangs are totally different.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I haven't spun anything. Look through my posts.



I have. What have I seen? Moralising about the need for hard deterrence and the like, and a right-wing spin on what is happening that favours punishment over any other approach.


> Of course,I wouldn't advocate not looking deeper - only it grates as the point of focus now while criminals run through the streets looting and burning.



So what if it grates? Is that a good reason to not engage?



> That was my point - but of course, you just come on here with the bravado bullshit of a thirteen year old.



Blah blah blah



> Good one! So witty! You are a smart little boy, aren't you.



More blah blah blah.

I could speculate on the significance of your need to constantly belittle anyone who disagrees with you by calling them idiots or making remarks about their probable age, but I think I'll let other posters draw their own conclusions.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Where's your facts then, twat?


 Give it a fucking rest eh?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Where's your facts then, twat?



Read the thread.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 9, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> This bloke in croydon who was shot and has just died - who shot him? Gang stuff? OB?



Just much has been be said about, too much going on, the only thing I heard was the police were called to the scene of a shooting and made two arrests.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

rover07 said:


> I think a decision was made early on not to try and arrest people 'in the act'.
> 
> But 400+ were arrested, probably by snatch squads waiting to pounce on anyone carrying stolen stuff.



It's an easy way to do the job: Just stand back and then pick people off. Doubtless the usual "cops with cameras" will have been deployed too, so on top of the CCTV and other footage they'll have access to, the OB will have a goldmine of future arrests ready and waiting for boosting their performance tables at the next spending review.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Dictionaries don't normally list long phrases. But of course you wouldn't know that, would you?


There ARE specialist dictionaries which do PRECISELY that. as VP pointed out. better luck next time!


----------



## treelover (Aug 9, 2011)

http://twitter.com/#!/VikramDodd

Vikram Dodd, Guardian, ''Police may use baton rounds: non lethal bullets tonight''

only one journo posting this at present..


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Paintball guns would be perfect - non-lethal, pretty painful, and a nice inky mark to identify core-troublemakers to the snatch squads.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I have. What have I seen? Moralising about the need for hard deterrence and the like, and a right-wing spin on what is happening that favours punishment over any other approach.


What right-wing spin on what is happening? I may be suspect on an understanding approach to dealing with this situation right now. That is all - aside from your made-up shit.



ViolentPanda said:


> So what if it grates? Is that a good reason to not engage?


I don't want an understanding approach to mass day-light robbery and massive arson. It's the approach, not that the deeper argument shouldn't be had.



ViolentPanda said:


> Blah blah blah


yawn



ViolentPanda said:


> I could speculate on the significance of your need to constantly belittle anyone who disagrees with you by calling them idiots or making remarks about their probable age, but I think I'll let other posters draw their own conclusions.


pot and kettle and one big delusional fucker


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I lived in Tottenham for years - two places. Also I grew up near the Tottenham end of Forestreet (the border between Tottenham and Edmonton). There are probably a lot of people in Tottenham who don't trust the police. I probably don't disagree with a lot of what you have to say about the roots of the problem. Clearly, where we part company is our approach to this emergency. While London's in flames, I don't believe this disgusting behaviour should be dealt with in an understanding manner, else condone it and exacerbate it. You believe the opposite. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps heavy-handedness would exacerbate the problem. I don't believe anyone knows for sure. But I'm worried about sending the wrong message, as what they are doing is so principally wrong.


OK, i'll give you - those are some fair points. However, there is one thing I can ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE you; relations between police and community - not just da yoot - in most of w/c London are so abysmally bad, that a crackdown of the sort you seem to be advocating would simply make things about a hundred times worse.


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## treelover (Aug 9, 2011)

good to see some of the bullies on here getting as good as they give out...


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## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> OK, i'll give you - those are some fair points. However, there is one thing I can ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE you; relations between police and community - not just da yoot - in most of w/c London are so abysmally bad, that a crackdown of the sort you seem to be advocating would simply make things about a hundred times worse.



I do not believe this is true. There could have been hundreds of skulls cracked last night - there were not. The riots still occurred.


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## faux pas (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> There ARE specialist dictionaries which do PRECISELY that. as VP pointed out. better luck next time!


Yet, you used the indefinite article.


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## treelover (Aug 9, 2011)

'Director of operations *Richard Webber* said:
_






It was an incredibly challenging night for everyone involved, but all the staff working in our control room, support departments and on the front line worked very professionally to help us reach patients as quickly as we could. On some occasions, this was made even more difficult as missiles were thrown at our vehicles and crews were threatened and intimidated while trying to care for people. '_

why do these scum act like that? attacking ambulance staff?


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## rover07 (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> OK, i'll give you - those are some fair points. However, there is one thing I can ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE you; relations between police and community - not just da yoot - in most of w/c London are so abysmally bad, that a crackdown of the sort you seem to be advocating would simply make things about a hundred times worse.



I agree and I think the police know it.


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## treelover (Aug 9, 2011)

apparrently some footballers including Stan Collymore are getting involved in the riot clean ups that are going on, atonement?


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## Maidmarian (Aug 9, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Director of operations *Richard Webber* said:
> _
> 
> 
> ...



Will you stop screaming "why oh why" & start engaging with the undelying reasons, which have been previously posted ?


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## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Popular opinion in Croydon area seems simple: either the cops deal with it or the residents will.
It seems many locals have elected to arm themselves with whatever they have to defend their streets.
I would be very, very surprised if there were not some serious casualties and even more deaths, if the scenes from last night are attempted to be repeated there tonight.


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## treelover (Aug 9, 2011)

*'07.33 Deputy Assistant Commissioner Stephen Kavanagh*, who has been key Met spokesman during the riots, says the profile of the rioters has changed since the initial outbreak of violence in Tottenham on Saturday night.
_





On Sunday we had some younger groups, aged 14 to 17, the profile last night changed to dramatically with older groups in cars doing organised looting. They were more focused on injuring London Ambulance staff who were trying to help, fire officers and of course police'_

I'm sorry M/M but now on a lot of issues I am parting company with many of the socialists on here, this is not Brixton in the 80's in fact read this

oh and this is a bulletin board, many people will want to know what is happening, not just the regular posters..


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## treelover (Aug 9, 2011)

unless you don't believe the Cop..


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

we can use the internet to read Telegraph updates for ourselves, we dont need some cretin mindlessly repeating the ones that suit him.

I'm surprised you didn't repeat the Rossiya 24 claim that animals had been released from London Zoo and lions and tigers could now be heard roaring on the street


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> What right-wing spin on what is happening? I may be suspect on an understanding approach to dealing with this situation right now. That is all - aside from your made-up shit.



You've answered your own question.



> I don't want an understanding approach to mass day-light robbery and massive arson. It's the approach, not that the deeper argument shouldn't be had.



Have I said, anywhere, that the situation shouldn't be policed, that things should be allowed to happen? Nope. Not once. That doesn't obviate, however, a need to understand not just why these events started, but why they've continued, too.



> yawn
> 
> pot and kettle and one big delusional fucker



Yeah, whatever.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

treelover said:


> good to see some of the bullies on here getting as good as they give out...



Why not have the courage of your convictions, and name and shame these bullies, eh?

That way, anyone reading the thread will be able to judge for themselves to what degree bullying is taking place, and to what degree you're indulging in a bit of whining.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> OK, i'll give you - those are some fair points. However, there is one thing I can ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE you; relations between police and community - not just da yoot - in most of w/c London are so abysmally bad, that a crackdown of the sort you seem to be advocating would simply make things about a hundred times worse.



We used to reckon, back when we were getting SUSed and lamped by the old bill back in the late '70s-early '80s that things couldn't get any worse, and in some instances, after '81 and '85, they got a bit better, usually due to communities pulling together against a common enemy - sometimes the local authority but more often the police. Many of the gains that were made, though, dissolved as the old unified communty leaderships dissolved, with Major and New Labour's approach to multi-culturalism, i.e. de-unifying the communities by emphasising the benefits of only looking after their own interests. We're back now in a similar situation to the early '70s, with the added problem of mass youth unemployment, and *no* method to absorb some of that energy, because fuck knows the army isn't hiring anymore, and the number of "apprenticeships" worthy of the name is miniscule.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> I do not believe this is true. There could have been hundreds of skulls cracked last night - there were not. The riots still occurred.



You seem to be using "rioting" and "looting" interchangeably, but the general pattern seems to be (going on past looting "sprees") that head-cracking of looters is more effective at deterrence than head-cracking of people with a grievance (imagined or real), so it may well depend on who you're talking about as to how effective any skull-cracking would be.


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

Jamie Olivers brum restaurant trashed apparently.  The rioters clearly have some sense of social responsibility then.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

treelover said:


> apparrently some footballers including Stan Collymore are getting involved in the riot clean ups that are going on, atonement?



Licking an entire barracks bog-block clean wouldn't atone for being Stan Collymore, to be fair.


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## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

treelover said:


> good to see some of the bullies on here getting as good as they give out...


waaah! miss! he pointed out I'm talking utter bollocks!


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## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> We used to reckon, back when we were getting SUSed and lamped by the old bill back in the late '70s-early '80s that things couldn't get any worse, and in some instances, after '81 and '85, they got a bit better, usually due to communities pulling together against a common enemy - sometimes the local authority but more often the police. Many of the gains that were made, though, dissolved as the old unified communty leaderships dissolved, with Major and New Labour's approach to multi-culturalism, i.e. de-unifying the communities by emphasising the benefits of only looking after their own interests. We're back now in a similar situation to the early '70s, with the added problem of mass youth unemployment, and *no* method to absorb some of that energy, because fuck knows the army isn't hiring anymore, and the number of "apprenticeships" worthy of the name is miniscule.


ain't it all so tragically true


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## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Yet, you used the indefinite article.


brilliant, tedious grammatical nitpicking, thatcherite hatred of working class kids AND zero attempt at any reasoned arguments!


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## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

dp


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> Popular opinion in Croydon area seems simple: either the cops deal with it or the residents will.
> It seems many locals have elected to arm themselves with whatever they have to defend their streets.
> I would be very, very surprised if there were not some serious casualties and even more deaths, if the scenes from last night are attempted to be repeated there tonight.


See, I don't see anything innately wrong with community self-defence, stopping "outsiders" invading your street to cause havoc, but I do see a difference between community self-defence, and those "outsiders" going on the rob/looting the town centre/shopping area, especially as you can bet the old bill will be looking after the business sector, not the residential sector. As long as people don't engage in vigilantism, then they're only *proposing* to do what the police have very obviously been disinclined to engage with.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 9, 2011)

From the Guardian...



> Jasmine Coleman has been talking to people who live either along or near Kingland High Street in Dalston, where Turkish and Kurdish shopkeepers were out in force last night.
> Many are grateful to the workers around here and thank them for stopping the spread of violence from nearby Mare Street and Dalston Junction.
> Debbie Mumdy, 41, who lives in Shacklewell Lane where a bus was set alight last night, said:
> 
> ...


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## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> I do not believe this is true. There could have been hundreds of skulls cracked last night - there were not. The riots still occurred.


agreed, but my contention is that things would get even worse.
In fact, I think this is mild, so far, compared with what could happen.


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## laptop (Aug 9, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> This bloke in croydon who was shot and has just died - who shot him? Gang stuff? OB?



Surprising lack of news... he was "sitting in a car" says the _Standard_...

First guess: score-settling.


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## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You seem to be using "rioting" and "looting" interchangeably, but the general pattern seems to be (going on past looting "sprees") that head-cracking of looters is more effective at deterrence than head-cracking of people with a grievance (imagined or real), so it may well depend on who you're talking about as to how effective any skull-cracking would be.



I think we can safely say most of these cunts are as materialistic in their choice of loot as any banker.

I would not object to hearing the sound of their broken bones any more than those of fatcat banking thieves.


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## rover07 (Aug 9, 2011)

I cant see workers at Tescos or Currys putting themselves in the firing line for the sake of a shop.


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## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

laptop said:


> Surprising lack of news... he was "sitting in a car" says the _Standard_...
> 
> First guess: score-settling.



Second guess - carjacking gone wrong.


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> I think we can safely say most of these cunts are as materialistic in their choice of loot as any banker.


bankers were just after some new trainers and a flatscreen tv? I don't think so


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## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> bankers were just after some new trainers and a flatscreen tv? I don't think so



And the rest. Guess you didn't see the jewellery shops and charity shops being fucked over.
These cunts are just as greedy and immoral as any of the bankers.


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## laptop (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> Second guess - carjacking gone wrong.



Later reports stressing that he was in the car "when police found him" - not necessarily when shot. Your search term is "Warrington Road" Croydon.


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## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2011)

Strathclyde police confirm a 16 year old in Glasgow has been detained on suspicion of attempting to incite a riot by a message on Facebook (@fieldproducer)


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## trabant (Aug 9, 2011)

rover07 said:


> I cant see workers at Tescos or Currys putting themselves in the firing line for the sake of a shop.


I remember seeing a picture of what looked like a curry's employee still wearing her uniform being arrested for looting her employer...


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## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2011)

These extra 10 000 or whatever it is coppers- they're going to be in streets they don't know, pumped up by fear they'll get hacked to death - what could go wrong?


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## Mr.Bishie (Aug 9, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> These extra 10 000 or whatever it is coppers- they're going to be in streets they don't know, pumped up by fear they'll get hacked to death - what could go wrong?



Arm them with RCG's!


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> These extra 10 000 or whatever it is coppers- they're going to be in streets they don't know, pumped up by fear they'll get hacked to death - what could go wrong?



There also seems to be a view that if the police would only 'get tough' that they'll drive said youth off the street. Now if it was a policial protest focussed on a specific location, that might work.

I'm not sure it'll work against this sort of networked swarm though ... although they might succeeed in handing out a number of savage examplary beatings that will warm the shrivelled hearts of Daily Mail readers.


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## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> There also seems to be a view that if the police would only 'get tough' that they'll drive said youth off the street. Now if it was a policial protest focussed on a specific location, that might work.
> 
> I'm not sure it'll work against this sort of networked swarm though ... although they might succeeed in handing out a number of savage examplary beatings that will warm the shrivelled hearts of Daily Mail readers.


That would drive it to the next level. If they come out swinging they might win for a few rounds, but by midnight they'll be dead on the stool - with no towel to be thrown.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> These extra 10 000 or whatever it is coppers- they're going to be in streets they don't know, pumped up by fear they'll get hacked to death - what could go wrong?



Nothing. It'll go as smoothly as policing the Miner's Strike and Wapping did, you'll see!


----------



## Paris Garters (Aug 9, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> I'm not sure that the thinking regarding the blockading of the West End is necessarily about "wealthy areas" being protected vis-a-vis the residents. At this time of the year the West End is jam packed with tourists, and dense with high-value targets. Both the primary and secondary financial impacts of a rampage through the heart of town would be astronomical, and with limited resources, it's likely a more efficient use of manpower to protect a single high-value and obvious target, than it is to chase these chaps around countless outlying High Streets.



I wasn't necessarily thinking in terms of residents. It does indeed make sense interms of strategy; particularly if your primary aim is to protect that which is of high economic value and capital, rather than ordinary more disposable people and property. The point I was trying to make is one of priority.

And they've had days to sort their shit out. They've sprung all these extra police for tonight - which proves that it's not about the force being stretched to it's maximum - and I'm thinking they could have done that on sunday. They were warning Enfield at 2pm - that's 6 hours til nightfall. Everything I've seen and heard suggests that they've been sitting on their hands.

e2a spelling error


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> How about a simple one, for a simpleton like you... what are the oh-so uber-intelligent so-called left wing doing in solidarity with working class people who are victims of the thieving gangs of kids?
> 
> Or perhaps more immediate - do YOU have any plans to defend yourself?
> Or does your right-on "all property is theft, comrade" mantra extend to these kids when they're kicking YOUR door in?
> ...


it's interesting how you turn to images of sexual dysfunction when you're trying to have a pop at someone. it offers an interesting insight into you.

having nothing to do with the 'uber-intelligent so-called left wing' of which you witter, i don't know what they're doing in solidarity with working class people who are the victims of the thieving gangs of kids. you should ask people in that milieu rather than me.

i have no plans to defend myself as they are not required.

when proudhon talked about all property being theft, he had in mind more the means of production than someone's books or bed. so the question's founded on a false premise.


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## Paris Garters (Aug 9, 2011)

I waded through three pages of people going 'yer mum' and calling each other cunts for that last post. Is there a thread somewhere that has less of this?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

Paris Garters said:


> I waded through three pages of people going 'yer mum' and calling each other cunts for that last post. Is there a thread somewhere that has less of this?


yes. but you won't find it here.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

pk said:


> I would not object to hearing the sound of their broken bones any more than those of fatcat banking thieves.




your fantasy of ultraviolence might play out with them breaking the bones in their feet stamping on your face.


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## gunneradt (Aug 9, 2011)

looking forward to this evening


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> looking forward to this evening


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)




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## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> There also seems to be a view that if the police would only 'get tough' that they'll drive said youth off the street. Now if it was a policial protest focussed on a specific location, that might work.
> 
> I'm not sure it'll work against this sort of networked swarm though ... although they might succeeed in handing out a number of savage examplary beatings that will warm the shrivelled hearts of Daily Mail readers.


I'm dead certain it won't work. What we've seen here is gangs of underclass youth who have both reached tipping point and have totally lost any fear or conditioned reflex to either respect the cops or play be the rules of a society that offers them diddly. 
consequence; the police crack dopwn hard in one area, trouble springs up in at least 2 others.
And the worst thing of all of this is...i'm not surprised at any of it. for me, the riots were always simply a matter of 'when', not 'if'.


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I'm dead certain it won't work. What we've seen here is gangs of underclass youth who have both reached tipping point and have totally lost any fear or conditioned reflex to either respect the cops or play be the rules of a society that offers them diddly.
> consequence; the police crack dopwn hard in one area, trouble springs up in at least 2 others.
> And the worst thing of all of this is...i'm not surprised at any of it. for me, the riots were always simply a matter of 'when', not 'if'.


no they havent - it's a group of lawless thugs who need a good hiding - and, if they got one, would run home to their mums like little cry babies. They have false bravery in numbers. They might think differently when a few get badly hurt.


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## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2011)

Fer more horrible things that seeing gunneradt as last poster.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I'm dead certain it won't work. What we've seen here is gangs of underclass youth who have both reached tipping point and have totally lost any fear or conditioned reflex to either respect the cops or play be the rules of a society that offers them diddly.
> consequence; the police crack dopwn hard in one area, trouble springs up in at least 2 others.
> And the worst thing of all of this is...i'm not surprised at any of it. for me, the riots were always simply a matter of 'when', not 'if'.


the problem the police have - and it's a problem you can see on streets right now - is that they can neither disperse their officers in penny packets nor concentrate them with any chance of 'success'. about half two there were pairs of officers dotted along the kingsland road in dalston and at highbury there were a couple of btp. what fucking use will they be if something kicks off? equally, concentrating them is unlikely to work because of the number of flashpoints there may well be. it's not like a demo where everyone's in one place or in one part of london - people will be in disparate parts of the city and will be highly mobile. in addition, where people on demonstrations have been notably reticent about burning buildings down since march 1990, the people on the streets now show no such reluctance. but perhaps more importantly only a couple of thousand - perhaps 3,000 - of the cops on the streets tonight will be public order trained. the other 13,000 are there to make up the numbers.

looking more closely at the numbers, they will have to be divided into shifts: no point asking some flatfoot plod to do 12 hours straight. in other words, while 16,000 sounds a fuck of a lot, it will be something much nearer 8,000 about at any one time. this too brings with it a number of logistical difficulties: will the met have so many suits of riot gear? i don't think so. and for people dressing up in riot gear for the first time in years, if they do, practical problems like going to the toilet will arise.

when things are in this context, raising the stakes seems like a fucking stupid thing to do, which is probably why they'll do it. the police are already stretched to fuck and if a couple more places - glasgow or edinburgh, coventry, leeds, wherever - then the police will be fucked. so the police have to win this quickly. but if they go for plastic baton rounds or exemplary beatings then their opposition will be more angry - and there are tens of thousands of young people who'd likely come out at that point. what i'm wondering is if the rioters will have a proper crack at the west end. they've broken their fear of the police and it would seem the logical end point for a spree of looting. but if they remain in the suburbs and their local areas, their home advantage may give them the edge over an increasingly tired police force which through fatigue and through the introduction of inexperienced officers are likely to make substantial errors.

the police leadership is absolutely dire, though this is no new thing. victory's been handed on a plate to the rioters, if they only turn out and take it. cracking down hard with beatings or running vehicles through crowds or baton rounds is likely to inflame the situation and to lead to a death. and if the cops kill someone then there'll be hell to pay.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Fer more horrible things that seeing gunneradt


*corrected for you*


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> no they havent - it's a group of lawless thugs who need a good hiding - and, if they got one, would run home to their mums like little cry babies. They have false bravery in numbers. They might think differently when a few get badly hurt.


This is logic-free, reason-free, Sub-_Daily Mail_ drivel that is unsupported by the facts, and which ignores the underlying causes, and it NEVER gives an answer to one rather important point; riots ALWAYS start in depressed, poor, socially blighted inner city neighbourhoods, as this did in Tottenham and Brixton, rather than in genteel home counties towns>
I LIVE in sucha poor neighbourhood, and used to work in Tottenham. I know these kids, and - trust me - they learn to take care of themselves from an early age, and will fight back hard. For as long as I can remember, the police have harassed kids in this area.
a crackdown as moronic as your post - and the whole of London will be up.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> the problem the police have - and it's a problem you can see on streets right now - is that they can neither disperse their officers in penny packets nor concentrate them with any chance of 'success'. about half two there were pairs of officers dotted along the kingsland road in dalston and at highbury there were a couple of btp. what fucking use will they be if something kicks off? equally, concentrating them is unlikely to work because of the number of flashpoints there may well be. it's not like a demo where everyone's in one place or in one part of london - people will be in disparate parts of the city and will be highly mobile. in addition, where people on demonstrations have been notably reticent about burning buildings down since march 1990, the people on the streets now show no such reluctance. but perhaps more importantly only a couple of thousand - perhaps 3,000 - of the cops on the streets tonight will be public order trained. the other 13,000 are there to make up the numbers.
> 
> looking more closely at the numbers, they will have to be divided into shifts: no point asking some flatfoot plod to do 12 hours straight. in other words, while 16,000 sounds a fuck of a lot, it will be something much nearer 8,000 about at any one time. this too brings with it a number of logistical difficulties: will the met have so many suits of riot gear? i don't think so. and for people dressing up in riot gear for the first time in years, if they do, practical problems like going to the toilet will arise.
> 
> ...


agree with every word of this. good post pickman's


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## stuff_it (Aug 9, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Arm them with RCG's!


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2011)

stuff_it said:


>


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> This is logic-free, reason-free, Sub-_Daily Mail_ drivel that is unsupported by the facts, and which ignores the underlying causes, and it NEVER gives an answer to one rather important point; riots ALWAYS start in depressed, poor, socially blighted inner city neighbourhoods, as this did in Tottenham and Brixton, rather than in genteel home counties towns>
> I LIVE in sucha poor neighbourhood, and used to work in Tottenham. I know these kids, and - trust me - they learn to take care of themselves from an early age, and will fight back hard. For as long as I can remember, the police have harassed kids in this area.
> a crackdown as moronic as your post - and the whole of London will be up.



Well you carry on defending these retards. I suspect one or two won't wake up in the morning.  And then all the lefties frothing in excitement at the insurrection can rally against the police.


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## consumer135 (Aug 9, 2011)

More importantly... rain
http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/forecast/8


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## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2011)

#londonriots IPCC says first tests show no evidence Duggan fired. Bullet in the officer's radio was police issue (@fieldproducer)

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_090811_dugganupdate.aspx


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> #londonriots IPCC says first tests show no evidence Duggan fired. Bullet in the officer's radio was police issue (@fieldproducer)
> 
> http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_090811_dugganupdate.aspx



Surprise, surprise ...

Here's the version the Met's partners-in-corruption at the Sun were coming out with immediately after Duggan was killed.



> Suspected gangster Mark Duggan, 29, fired a handgun at an armed cop, whose life was saved when the bullet hit his radio.
> The officer returned fire with his Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine gun - blasting dad-of-five Duggan twice in the face before slumping to the ground.



http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...lfriend-to-say-The-feds-are-following-me.html


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## Mr.Bishie (Aug 9, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Surprise, surprise ...



Not at all - cunts


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## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> Well you carry on defending these retards. I suspect one or two won't wake up in the morning. And then all the lefties frothing in excitement at the insurrection can rally against the police.


Seriously, are you blind, or just a tad simple-minded? 
NO-ONE is 'defending' the rioters; there's a whole world of difference between 'defending' or excusing their actions - and seeking to understand what caused this to happen. 
IF we do get understand why all of this happened, we may, just possibly, forestall a repeat occurrence.
kneejerk 'shoot the scum' frothing, on the other hand, is even more mindless than the looters themselves, and will - if followed by the police - simply lead to more and worse trouble, becuase there is rather a lot of evidence to suggest violence only ever begets more violence.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

Even if they get the Paras to come shoot some people (a tactic which I seem to recall being not _*entirely*_ successful when previously tried) ...

... I don't see how it's going to stop rioters from swarming where the police/army/vigilantes-in-super-hero-costumes are not.


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## dylans (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Seriously, are you blind, or just a tad simple-minded?
> NO-ONE is 'defending' the rioters; there's a whole world of difference between 'defending' or excusing their actions - and seeking to understand what caused this to happen.
> IF we do get understand why all of this happened, we may, just possibly, forestall a repeat occurrence.
> kneejerk 'shoot the scum' frothing, on the other hand, is even more mindless than the looters themselves, and will - if followed by the police - simply lead to more and worse trouble, becuase there is rather a lot of evidence to suggest violence only ever begets more violence.


I hope people understand that this " it's all criminal and has no social cause " line directly aids the Tories as they continue their austerity drive. If there is no social cause behind the riots then there is no reason to change course. There is only a need for a stronger state and more repression alongside the cuts. Dismissing the economic causes of social unrest guarantees that this governments savage attacks on services and peoples life chances will continue unabaited and it guarantees that there will be more social unrest in the future


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Seriously, are you blind, or just a tad simple-minded?
> NO-ONE is 'defending' the rioters; there's a whole world of difference between 'defending' or excusing their actions - and seeking to understand what caused this to happen.
> IF we do get understand why all of this happened, we may, just possibly, forestall a repeat occurrence.
> kneejerk 'shoot the scum' frothing, on the other hand, is even more mindless than the looters themselves, and will - if followed by the police - simply lead to more and worse trouble, becuase there is rather a lot of evidence to suggest violence only ever begets more violence.



I am not blind at all but there isnt a reason why 99% of this has happened.  I also hope that if you know some of the looters you'll help the police with their enquiries.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

dylans said:


> I hope people understand that this " it's all criminal and has no social cause " line directly aids the Tories as they continue their austerity drive. If there is no social cause behind the riots then there is no reason to change course. There is only a need for a stronger state and more repression alongside the cuts. Dismissing the economic causes of social unrest guarantees that this governments savage attacks on services and peoples life chances will continue unabaited and it guarantees that there will be more social unrest in the future


damn right, which is why the Tories will peddle the 'mindless thugs' line for all they're worth, and move heaven and earth to close of any line of debate that focuses on economic causal factors.
problem is, I think enough out there are mug enough to fall for it.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

When you see someone persistently conflating 'explain' with 'excuse' you know you're dealing with dishonest arguments.

Problem for people who've been supporting neo-liberal policies over the last three decades though is that they've got *no other way to avoid* the facts staring them in the face from their screens today.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> I am not blind at all but there isnt a reason why 99% of this has happened.


Whilst I agree that a lot of the rioters are simply mindless troublemakers, there certainly is a reason why this _started_; it's called deprivation, social decay, social and economic exclusion, police harassment, and the resentment those things cause.
Otherwise, please explain why this started in dirt-poor Tottenham and not (say) Virginia Water



> I also hope that if you know some of the looters you'll help the police with their enquiries.


sorry, I don't betray my community, or my class. Itwas a police f-up that triggered all this, remember


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> When you see someone persistently conflating 'explain' with 'excuse' you know you're dealing with dishonest arguments.
> 
> Problem for people who've been supporting neo-liberal policies over the last three decades though is that they've got _no other way to avoid_ the facts staring them in the face from their screens today.


nail, head, hit


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Whilst I agree that a lot of the rioters are simply mindless troublemakers, there certainly is a reason why this _started_; it's called deprivation, social decay, social and economic exclusion, police harassment, and the resentment those things cause.
> Otherwise, please explain why this started in dirt-poor Tottenham and not (say) Virginia Water
> 
> sorry, I don't betray my community, or my class. Itwas a police f-up that triggered all this, remember



I dont know - was it?  Lets hope it doesn't affect you or anyone you know then


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 9, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> #londonriots IPCC says first tests show no evidence Duggan fired. Bullet in the officer's radio was police issue (@fieldproducer)
> 
> http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_090811_dugganupdate.aspx


 
so the familiar lie and obfuscation has well and truly followed the standard pattern


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> I dont know - was it? Lets hope it doesn't affect you or anyone you know then


did you not know that a chap called duggan was shot by Tottenham cops, a racist body of people widely hated in the area they poilice?


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## Mr.Bishie (Aug 9, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> so the familiar lie and obfuscation has well and truly followed the standard pattern



Yep!


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> did you not know that a chap called duggan was shot by Tottenham cops, a racist body of people widely hated in the area they poilice?


 
There's always going to be folk who CAN be fooled all the time.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 9, 2011)

It's all over the news up here in Glasgow about the teenager being arrested for alleged incitement to riot. But otherwise, fingers crossed, quite quiet. It's marching season here so my thoughts are that the police are keeping a lid on things anyway. For now.


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## Corax (Aug 9, 2011)

My money's on nothing much in London tonight, but it kicking off in Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Portsmouth.


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## grit (Aug 9, 2011)

Corax said:


> My money's on nothing much in London tonight, but it kicking off in Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Portsmouth.



Same here I cant see much happening.


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2011)

Summat happening in West Bromwich apparently.  Which must be a first.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 9, 2011)

they've stripped northamptonshire police force bare to cover london tonight. Come on you belinge, smackthorn and lings boys.


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## gunneradt (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> did you not know that a chap called duggan was shot by Tottenham cops, a racist body of people widely hated in the area they poilice?


a villain with a gun by all accounts - no loss to society


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> a villain with a gun by all accounts - no loss to society


hold on there! 1) no criminal record has come to light yet - all is known is he spent some time on remand, which is hardly unusual for a young black man from Tottenham. The rest is rumours and accusations. _Anyone_ can give an 'account', incuding the met who are in the habit of smearing their victims (such as De Menezes) via anonymous brioefings to reporters  - it's _proof_ that matters, and that ain't there yet.
2) a firearm was found 'at the scene' - the IPCC have not yet confirmed it was his, the cabbie's (yes, this happens) or the other passenger, or even a police plant (equally a known phenomenon). It hasn't been established that it was on his person
3) his best mate was murdered earlier this year - there is every chance that, if he was carrying the gun, it was for protection. I know this area, and IMO that don't make him a criminal - just scared.
4) What is KNOWN is that he was the dad in a long-term stable family unit. The point being, that means stability etc.
in other words, you're jumping the gun a tad (sorry, no pun intended). Given that these police fuckups have a history of being followed by a lot of lies from the Met, and they've ALREADY been caught on one lie(duggan didn't fire at them), it's best to wait for the full IPCC report


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 9, 2011)

'All accounts' were saying he'd fired that gun at the cops until quite recently ...

... but now they're backing off that version of their story.


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## gunneradt (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> hold on there! 1) no criminal record has come to light yet - all is known is he spent some time on remand, which is hardly unusual for a young black man from Tottenham. The rest is rumours and accusations. _Anyone_ can give an 'account', incuding the met who are in the habit of smearing their victims (such as De Menezes) via anonymous brioefings to reporters - it's _proof_ that matters, and that ain't there yet.
> 2) a firearm was found 'at the scene' - the IPCC have not yet confirmed it was his, the cabbie's (yes, this happens) or the other passenger, or even a police plant (equally a known phenomenon). It hasn't been established that it was on his person
> 3) his best mate was murdered earlier this year - there is every chance that, if he was carrying the gun, it was for protection. I know this area, and IMO that don't make him a criminal - just scared.
> 4) What is KNOWN is that he was the dad in a long-term stable family unit. The point being, that means stability etc.
> in other words, you're jumping the gun a tad (sorry, no pun intended). Given that these police fuckups have a history of being followed by a lot of lies from the Met, and they've ALREADY been caught on one lie(duggan didn't fire at them), it's best to wait for the full IPCC report



did his gun have a licence then?


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## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> did his gun have a licence then?


Again - no-one knows the full story yet, but the LAST thing I would set store by is anything coming from the met


----------



## gunneradt (Aug 9, 2011)

I


Streathamite said:


> Again - no-one knows the full story yet, but the LAST thing I would set store by is anything coming from the met



I'll wager you an amount it didn't


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## laptop (Aug 9, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> did his gun have a licence then?



You haven't read what you quoted. You _know_ it was his, how?


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## gunneradt (Aug 9, 2011)

laptop said:


> You haven't read what you quoted. You _know_ it was his, how?



no it was the gun fairy


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## Blagsta (Aug 9, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> I am not blind at all but there isnt a reason why 99% of this has happened. I also hope that if you know some of the looters you'll help the police with their enquiries.



Yeah, shit just happens with no reason.


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Yeah, shit just happens with no reason.



Free will dontcha know?


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## belboid (Aug 10, 2011)

beeb now reporting 'three or four' explosions at a diesel storage place in tottenham now


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## revol68 (Aug 10, 2011)

I see pk's faux radicalism for the Arab spring upheavels has worn off, understandable, much harder to hide your liberalism when the reality of social conflict is closer to home and instead of romanticised "others" to project your desires onto you are faced with the urban working class and disenfranchised in it's many, not always very palatable, forms.

Haven't had a chance to read much more than that but one can assume the beans are appalled at the shattering of the "peace" in their oh soo vibrant and "integrated" urban living spaces.

And seriously what the fuck is wrong with looting curry's, pc world, footlocker etc oh right cos so many of the lefts idea of politics is moralising idealist shite with a bit of lip service to some abstract, pure form of class struggle.

Good article here, oddly enough not from the BBC


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## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> kneejerk 'shoot the scum' frothing, on the other hand, is even more mindless than the looters themselves, and will - if followed by the police - simply lead to more and worse trouble, becuase there is rather a lot of evidence to suggest violence only ever begets more violence.


yeh. but that's what you get from some posters like pk, who serially fail to engage brain before posting.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2011)

dylans said:


> it guarantees that there will be more social unrest in the future


tbh it doesn't matter a whit what the government does, there will be social unrest in the future. it's a bit like death and taxes, a fucking certainty.


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## Giles (Aug 10, 2011)

Hopefully things will calm down now, and they can go back to offing each other on the weekends for stuff like venturing into the neighbouring postcode or looking at someone else in a funny way.

Giles..


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## Giles (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> This is logic-free, reason-free, Sub-_Daily Mail_ drivel that is unsupported by the facts, and which ignores the underlying causes, and it NEVER gives an answer to one rather important point; riots ALWAYS start in depressed, poor, socially blighted inner city neighbourhoods, as this did in Tottenham and Brixton, rather than in genteel home counties towns>
> I LIVE in sucha poor neighbourhood, and used to work in Tottenham. I know these kids, and - trust me - they learn to take care of themselves from an early age, and will fight back hard. For as long as I can remember, the police have harassed kids in this area.
> a crackdown as moronic as your post - and the whole of London will be up.



That's because the people who live there are less law-abiding and more likely to be criminals.

Giles..


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## revol68 (Aug 10, 2011)

Giles said:


> Hopefully things will calm down now, and they can go back to offing each other on the weekends for stuff like venturing into the neighbouring postcode or looking at someone else in a funny way.
> 
> Giles..



yeah hopefully the nasty reality will go away and us people that matter or atleast imagine ourselves to (despite repeated hints from the state) can carry on as normal.


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## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

revol68 said:


> yeah hopefully the nasty reality will go away and us people that matter or atleast imagine ourselves to (despite repeated hints from the state) can carry on as normal.



The rioters are not responsible because they're just a product of their environment; we're not responsible as we're just a product of ours; the elite class aren't because they're just a product of theirs. It's just one giant mushy deterministic bowl.

But lets just exclude the rioters from it anyway, cause that makes sense, doesn't it?


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## Garek (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> The rioters are not responsible because their just a product of their environment; we're not responsible as we're just a product of ours; the elite class aren't because their just a product of theirs. It's just one giant mushy deterministic bowl.
> 
> But lets just exclude the rioters from it anyway, cause that makes sense, doesn't it?



Repeat 20 times until it is through your thick skull: "Seeking to understand is not seeking to condone"

Actually make that 200 times.


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## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Garek said:


> Repeat 20 times until it is through your thick skull: "Seeking to understand is not seeking to condone"
> 
> Actually make that 200 times.


Of course it isn't, but in the absence of condemning the rioters, it would seem to be.


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## revol68 (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> The rioters are not responsible because they're just a product of their environment; we're not responsible as we're just a product of ours; the elite class aren't because they're just a product of theirs. It's just one giant mushy deterministic bowl.
> 
> But lets just exclude the rioters from it anyway, cause that makes sense, doesn't it?



Please show your working out.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Of course it isn't, but in the absence of condemning the rioters, it would seem to be.


Nobody in their right mind wouldn't condemn the rioting. It's like talking about the possible motives and reasons of, say, Charles Manson - the background he came from, the political and social movements of his time etc. and then being berated for not sitting down for 20 minutes beforehand and have a good thorough condemnation of the murders.

Nobody thinks firebombing your local pub is a good thing to do! Jeez.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Nobody in their right mind wouldn't condemn the rioting. It's like talking about the possible motives and reasons of, say, Charles Manson - the background he came from, the political and social movements of his time etc. and then being berated for not sitting down for 20 minutes beforehand and have a good thorough condemnation of the murders.
> 
> Nobody thinks firebombing your local pub is a good thing to do! Jeez.


So, you're saying, it's so blatantly bad, it's not worth condemning. Wow!


----------



## Crispy (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> So, you're saying, it's so blatantly bad, it's not worth condemning. Wow!


No, it's so blatantly bad that it's like remarking that the sky is blue. It goes without saying. The logic is ridiculous.

"Did you say that Hitler was a bad man today?"
"Well, no..."
"THAT MAN RIGHT THERE CONDONES THE HOLOCAUST!"

(sorry to godwin)


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## London_Calling (Aug 10, 2011)

As said elsewhere, _every_ riot is political.


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## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Crispy said:


> No, it's so blatantly bad that it's like remarking that the sky is blue. It goes without saying.


But somehow only seems to mostly go without saying here. Only here it's too obvious to say. Hmm


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## Maidmarian (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> But somehow only seems to mostly go without saying here. Only here it's too obvious to say. Hmm



Yep ----- 'course it does.


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## Santino (Aug 10, 2011)

Has everyone condemned the violence in Libya, Syria, Gaza and Somalia today?


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## London_Calling (Aug 10, 2011)

It's ok, we've sent the UN in to protect the rioters.


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## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Santino said:


> Has everyone condemned the violence in Libya, Syria, Gaza and Somalia today?



I haven't seen you condemning it.


----------



## rekil (Aug 10, 2011)

Santino said:


> Has everyone condemned the violence in Libya, Syria, Gaza and Somalia today?


I'm still condemning the looting that went on during the 1916 rising.


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## Santino (Aug 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I haven't seen you condemning it.



I'll let you draw your own conclusions then.


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## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Given that these police fuckups have a history of being followed by a lot of lies from the Met, and they've ALREADY been caught on one lie(duggan didn't fire at them)....



Did the OB say that he shot at them, or was that just The Sun?

The claim that it was a police bullet in the radio was made pretty quickly after the incident.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/fed-residents-form-anti-looter-patrols-062625198.html

Look at these wankers trying to protect their lives, livelihoods and homes. What a bunch of retards! How dare they fight back and try to protect themselves. What misguided aggressive fucktards!


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## belboid (Aug 10, 2011)

you're not exactly the brightest button in the box are you?


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

belboid said:


> you're not exactly the brightest button in the box are you?


I thought you had taken off to read 'English Grammar For Dummies'.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

revol68 said:


> <snip> Good article here, oddly enough not from the BBC



That _*is*_ a good article ...



> The profusion of images that modern technology generates makes it even more difficult to impose a single meaning on a complex event. Those who live in terror of a feral underclass and those who are worried about the impact of fiscal austerity on vulnerable communities can find material online that confirms their world-view. There will be a fierce conflict in the weeks ahead as politicians, commentators and others seek to frame the events of the last few days in ways that serve their wider agenda. The police, for example, will call for increased budgets to deal with the increased risks of civil disorder. In this sense, too, riots are inescapably political events.
> 
> There are signs too that technology is allowing individuals to intervene in the process by which meaning is assigned to social events. When disorder broke out in France in 2005 in somewhat similar circumstances the political right was the major beneficiary. Sarkozy's rise from interior minister to president owed a great deal to his role in expressing the anxious aggression of a mass constituency that often lived far away from the burning cars and public buildings.
> 
> ...



http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/08/201189165143946889.html


----------



## ddraig (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Did the OB say that he shot at them, or was that just The Sun?
> 
> The claim that it was a police bullet in the radio was made pretty quickly after the incident.


and of course the law abiding coppers who were involved spoke up to put the record straight didn't they!
come on ffs


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

ddraig said:


> and of course the law abiding coppers who were involved spoke up to put the record straight didn't they!
> come on ffs



Well, ultimately, yes, but that's not my point.

I just wondered if the police actually _ever said_ that their guy was fired on, or if it was just media speculation.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Well, ultimately, yes, but that's not my point.
> 
> I just wondered if the police actually _ever said_ that their guy was fired on, or if it was just media speculation.



You mean 'said in public' or 'said while anonymously briefing the media' ?


----------



## ddraig (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Well, ultimately, yes, but that's not my point.
> 
> I just wondered if the police actually _ever said_ that their guy was fired on, or if it was just media speculation.



splitting hairs
they tried their usual routine cover up and lie tactic and were caught out quicker than usual
murdering cretin cowards


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> You mean 'said in public' or 'said while anonymously briefing the media' ?


precisely. Typical met, and ESPESH tottenham OB. God, tottenham OB are utter cunts.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

Officially Bernie. What may or may not have been said anonymously is just speculation. Where were the first reports of Duggan shooting first and who were they quoting? Is what I mean.



ddraig said:


> splitting hairs
> they tried their usual routine cover up and lie tactic and were caught out quicker than usual



Well it's not splitting hairs. It's very relevant.

As far as I can see, plod had no reason to say he fired first. If the bloke had a gun and the CO19 guy thought he was posing a threat, he can shoot him regardless of whether or not he fires. So, have they genuinely tried to cover something up, or have they simply waited to establish facts? Obviously I expect answers here, to that, to be highly predictable .


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> I'll wager you an amount it didn't


The bloke's best mate was murdered (still no arrests, local dibble done f-all about it), and he lived in fear for his life; what would _you_ rather be - alive, and in possession of an illegal piece, or dead and law-abiding?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Officially Bernie. What may or may not have been said anonymously is just speculation. Where were the first reports of Duggan shooting first and who were they quoting? Is what I mean.
> 
> Well it's not splitting hairs. It's very relevant.
> 
> As far as I can see, plod had no reason to say he fired first. If the bloke had a gun and the CO19 guy thought he was posing a threat, he can shoot him regardless of whether or not he fires. So, have they genuinely tried to cover something up, or have they simply waited to establish facts? Obviously I expect answers here, to that, to be highly predictable .


spy - the met in general, and the wankers in tottenham in particular, have a long record of smearing the victims of their f-ups. They even tried it with cynthia jarret, ffs! How can you possibly give such leeway to people with this record for mendacity and dirty tricks?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

revol68 said:


> Haven't had a chance to read much more than that but one can assume the beans are appalled at the shattering of the "peace" in their oh soo vibrant and "integrated" urban living spaces.
> 
> And seriously what the fuck is wrong with looting curry's, pc world, footlocker etc oh right cos so many of the lefts idea of politics is moralising idealist shite with a bit of lip service to some abstract, pure form of class struggle.
> 
> Good article here, oddly enough not from the BBC


a) if you're referring to me as a 'bean' mate - jog on. it just happens to be where I live. not good,not bad, just my home.
and no, I have zero problem with robbing the retail outlets of megabucks international plc; I DO have a problem with them robbing the gaffs of small neighbourhood shopkeepers, _petit bourgeois_ or no


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> The rioters are not responsible because they're just a product of their environment; we're not responsible as we're just a product of ours; the elite class aren't because they're just a product of theirs. It's just one giant mushy deterministic bowl.
> 
> But lets just exclude the rioters from it anyway, cause that makes sense, doesn't it?


f-me, are you actually brain-damaged?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> How can you possibly give such leeway to people with this record for mendacity and dirty tricks?



That's just silly mate.

Their past record is certainly cause for healthy scepticism, but whilst you want to hang them high immediately, I want to know what happened.

So far all we know is that a bloke, seemingly armed, was shot, the only weapons fired were police ones, and that (spurious) media reports at the time suggested that Duggan shot a copper.

There's no evidence of an attempted cover up, so surely you want to know more?


----------



## revol68 (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> a) if you're referring to me as a 'bean' mate - jog on. it just happens to be where I live. not good,not bad, just my home.
> and no, I have zero problem with robbing the retail outlets of megabucks international plc; I DO have a problem with them robbing the gaffs of small neighbourhood shopkeepers, _petit bourgeois_ or no



why on earth would you assume yourself to be a "bean", infact it was your posts I was nodding along to as you countered pk's crap.

there is no disagreement here, "bean" isn't about where you live, "man", it's a state of mind


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Giles said:


> That's because the people who live there are less law-abiding and more likely to be criminals.
> 
> Giles..


you are such an utter cretinous turd it is not worth wasting serious intellectual effort on you, but thank you for admitting that you think all working class youth are scum. your true colours....


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> How can you possibly give such leeway to people with this record for mendacity and dirty tricks?



Because they do the dangerous jobs that you are not prepared to?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

revol68 said:


> why on earth would you assume yourself to be a "bean", infact it was your posts I was nodding along to as you countered pk's crap.
> 
> there is no disagreement here, "bean" isn't about where you live, "man", it's a state of mind


fair enough mate. revol, I'm sorry for over-reacting, i'm just kinda upset and highly emotional, at what has happened to the place I care about. Please be patient with us, nerves are a tad frayed down here....


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Because they do the dangerous jobs that you are not prepared to for money because credit is impossible to get.


so that gives them licence to kill people, and then to lie and smear their way out of it? (cf. Tomlinson)
Or to treat black youth like shit?
Or take backhanders from Murdoch & co?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Because they do the dangerous jobs that you are not prepared to?


i'd like to see them clean the inside of a sulphuric acid vat. without gloves. that's quite a dangerous job i'm not prepared to do.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> so that gives them licence to kill people, and then to lie and smear their way out of it? (cf. Tomlinson)
> Or to treat black youth like shit?
> Or take backhanders from Murdoch & co?



No. But it makes judging them for it much more difficult.

Would they have to lie if they were not lied about?


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd like to see them clean the inside of a sulphuric acid vat. without gloves. that's quite a dangerous job i'm not prepared to do.



How would they answer the phone when you ring them?


----------



## Giles (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> The bloke's best mate was murdered (still no arrests, local dibble done f-all about it), and he lived in fear for his life; what would _you_ rather be - alive, and in possession of an illegal piece, or dead and law-abiding?



His mate was killed in a crowded nightclub, with a knife.

Presumably because of a mixture of dislike of the police, and fear of and loyalty to the murderer or his gang, no-one who witnessed it, or who knows who did it, will tell the police anything.What are they supposed to do if no-one will help them?

To say "the dibble done f-all about it" is just not true. If people want to stop the hold local gangsters have over their communities, then they need to spill the beans about perpetrators of crimes like this.

Giles..


----------



## ddraig (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Officially Bernie. What may or may not have been said anonymously is just speculation. Where were the first reports of Duggan shooting first and who were they quoting? Is what I mean.
> 
> Well it's not splitting hairs. It's very relevant.
> 
> As far as I can see, plod had no reason to say he fired first. If the bloke had a gun and the CO19 guy thought he was posing a threat, he can shoot him regardless of whether or not he fires. So, have they genuinely tried to cover something up, or have they simply waited to establish facts? Obviously I expect answers here, to that, to be highly predictable .



do you concede that one of the very first facts that could and should have been established was that the man shot by police did not shoot "first" or at all?


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 10, 2011)

No.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> so that gives them licence to kill people, and then to lie and smear their way out of it? (cf. Tomlinson)
> Or to treat black youth like shit?
> Or take backhanders from Murdoch & co?



None of which of course, has any bearing on Duggan's shooting whatsoever.

As is always the case on these boards, there are plenty of people who WANT Duggan to have been wrongly shot. I don't. I hope that the officer that killed him acted correctly.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

ddraig said:


> do you concede that one of the very first facts that could and should have been established was that the man shot by police did not shoot "first" or at all?



No. The first thing that should be established is whether the man shot, could reasonably have been considered to be posing a risk to anyone else.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> No. The first thing that should be established is whether the man shot, could reasonably have been considered to be posing a risk to anyone else.


 well then you are a massive cunt and unbelievable cop cock sucking apologist


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2011)

ddraig said:


> well then you are a massive cunt and unbelievable cop cock sucking apologist


and you've only just realised that?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

ddraig said:


> well then you are a massive cunt and unbelievable cop cock sucking apologist



Idiot.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 10, 2011)

Nobody's focusing on why the unfortunate man was carrying a replica


----------



## elbows (Aug 10, 2011)

Im not in London, I have a potentially silly question. How are the pirate radio stations handling events?


----------



## belboid (Aug 10, 2011)

maybe because merely carrying a gun doesn't mean you deserve top be killed


----------



## ddraig (Aug 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> and you've only just realised that?


no!
good to point it out now and again tho, specially for the new users


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Nobody's focusing on why the unfortunate man was carrying a replica



It wasn't a replica. It was a loaded firearm, according to yesterdays police statement.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> None of which of course, has any bearing on Duggan's shooting whatsoever.
> 
> As is always the case on these boards, there are plenty of people who WANT Duggan to have been wrongly shot. I don't. I hope that the officer that killed him acted correctly.


the fact that their first response was to tell a HUGE lie DOES  have a bearing; it is indicative of the contempt they feel for the community they are supposed to serve. And I really do feel that police harassment of black (and white, and asian, and turkish) youth in Tottenham is the wider context which shouldn't be overlooked)
and what you 'hope for' is pretty irrelevant, tbh, same as what I 'hope for', and all these hypothetical people who 'want duggan to have been wrongly shot'; the core point is that there is a major problem with tottenham OB.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

ddraig said:


> good to point it out now and again tho, specially for the new users



Any new users reading this thread will have got the measure of you from your last couple of mind-fuckingly ignorant posts!


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> the fact that their first response was to tell a HUGE lie DOES have a bearing;



Which lie?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> No. But it makes judging them for it much more difficult.
> 
> Would they have to lie if they were not lied about?


Christ you talk crap. How the FUCK can you say that the police 'have to lie', and WHO is lying about the police? specific instances please, or stfu.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Which lie?


the one that duggan fired first, which they told the C4 reporter, bloke called Israel. first name eludes me, but he said it straight up.
The IPCC have already said that's untrue.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Officially Bernie. What may or may not have been said anonymously is just speculation. <snip>



'Just speculation' ...

If the police brief the media with a pack of self-serving lies whenever they kill someone, it doesn't matter as long as they do it anonymously?

Or do you have another implication in mind ... ?

Even if the media are doing it spontaneously with little or no police intervention, it matters. It's become such a clear pattern of behaviour that it substantially undermines public trust in the police force.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> no they havent - it's a group of lawless thugs who need a good hiding - and, if they got one, would run home to their mums like little cry babies. They have false bravery in numbers. They might think differently when a few get badly hurt.



Yes, a good hiding always detered the rioters in Belfast and Derry. 

You keyboard warriors, you really haven't got a fucking clue.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2011)

Not up with the last few hundred posts so apols if this has been posted already:

Theresa May: We can cut police budget without risking violent unrest



> The home secretary, Theresa May, has dismissed fears that deep spending cuts could undermine the ability of the police to tackle possible civil unrest, and insisted the British did not respond to austerity by rioting on the streets.
> 
> May told the police superintendents' annual conference that it was "ridiculous" to suggest savings could not be made in policing, and went on to challenge the political orthodoxy that fewer officers would inevitably mean more crime. The home secretary pointed out that around the world significant falls in crime had happened alongside stable or even falling police numbers.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Even if they get the Paras to come shoot some people (a tactic which I seem to recall being not _*entirely*_ successful when previously tried) ...
> 
> ... I don't see how it's going to stop rioters from swarming where the police/army/vigilantes-in-super-hero-costumes are not.



Only way to successfully pull anything out of the hat would be manpower-intensive, and that'd be to cast a wide cordon and then progressively shrink it until you've concentrated your targets into a fairly small area. Works well if your cordon don't mind taking a knock, but coppers don't historically have a good record of standing up to opposition of equal numbers and similarly-armed, hence their love of biting off small chunks of opposition - easier to beat the shit out of them if your numbers overwhelm theirs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Not up with the last few hundred posts so apols if this has been posted already:
> 
> Theresa May: We can cut police budget without risking violent unrest



As usual, she's looking at the headline "facts" her briefers have assembled for her, rather than the social situations of those examples in-the-round.

Just when you think government idiocy can't be exceeded, along comes an example to disabuse you...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

dylans said:


> I hope people understand that this " it's all criminal and has no social cause " line directly aids the Tories as they continue their austerity drive. If there is no social cause behind the riots then there is no reason to change course. There is only a need for a stronger state and more repression alongside the cuts.



A stronger yet *smaller* state, apparently.



> Dismissing the economic causes of social unrest guarantees that this governments savage attacks on services and peoples life chances will continue unabaited and it guarantees that there will be more social unrest in the future



Absolutely.


----------



## agricola (Aug 10, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Not up with the last few hundred posts so apols if this has been posted already:
> 
> Theresa May: We can cut police budget without risking violent unrest



May is not entirely wrong - what matters (as it does with most of the cuts tbh) is *what* they cut.  Thus far they have gone with the traditional Home Office / ACPO policy of not cutting themselves / their favourite wheezes and schemes whilst going after the terms and conditions (and jobs) of officers and staff, and outsourcing business to places that senior figures can go and work at after retirement (best seen with the demise of the FSS)... but noone should pretend that there isnt a lot of waste spending in the police service, or that police officers cannot be deployed more intelligently than they have been.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> When you see someone persistently conflating 'explain' with 'excuse' you know you're dealing with dishonest arguments.
> 
> Problem for people who've been supporting neo-liberal policies over the last three decades though is that they've got *no other way to avoid* the facts staring them in the face from their screens today.









"Can you give me a 'cognitive dissonance', brothers and sisters?"


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> There's always going to be folk who CAN be fooled all the time.



Unfortunately, there are also people who actively *want* to be "fooled" because it accords to their already-formed prejudices.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

laptop said:


> You haven't read what you quoted. You _know_ it was his, how?



Look mate, everyone knows a British copper would *never, ever* use a throw-down.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Can you give me a 'cognitive dissonance', brothers and sisters?"


Absobleedinlutely!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

Giles said:


> That's because the people who live there are less law-abiding and more likely to be criminals.
> 
> Giles..



Actually, like the proverbial broken clock, even a worthless shitcunt like you is occasionally right.

Of course, you're right *in spite of yourself*, because while you're attempting to stigmatise with your banal comment, you've accidenatlly brought up a truth that's been evident to historians and social scientists for at least 150 years: That elements of the working class (I believe that your fellow-eugenicists of that era referred to them as "the residuum") are more likely to be criminal.

What those learned people know, that you don't, is that there were and are reasons for that criminality that have nothing to do with your rationalisations or your morality: Reasons of necessity.

Of course, you'll dismiss that as high-flown academic waffle, which is a shame, as there's such a rich seam of evidence from both sides of the fence that support it over your own pathetic mumblings.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

revol68 said:


> Please show your working out.



Don't tax faux pas, they'll just start swearing at you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Nobody's focusing on why the unfortunate man was carrying a replica



Well, we haven't *actually* established that he was carrying anything, yet, given that the gun was "found" by the same people who originally "returned fire" at a bloke who hadn't shot at them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> It wasn't a replica. It was a loaded firearm, according to yesterdays police statement.



Was supposedly an activated replica.

You know, of the sort that anyone sensible doesn't pull the trigger off, and that get handed in by the dozen at every gun amnesty.

Not that I'm saying that the Met would have taken a leaf out of NYPD's book and taken a few "throw-downs" from the amnesty bin in case of a slight mishap like getting trigger-happy and killing someone who wasn't resisting arrest, no sirree....


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 10, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> no it was the gun fairy


He may have rented it for the claimed purpose, even if that were confirmed it doesn't mean he habitually carried a gun, and the delay since his fam's shooting implies he was using a lot more discretion than a proper 'gang thug' if that were in fact the truth.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Don't tax faux pas, they'll just start swearing at you.


You hold the truth, nobody else. Just a little leftist clique on some little hardly known message forum know all the answers and can't possibly be wrong; and when challenged, start throwing insults about yet cry when a few are happily returned.

In short, your posts are wank, VP. Best to stop surrounding yourself with people who just think like you. It'll give you a false sense of security.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> You hold the truth, nobody else. Just a little leftist clique on some little hardly known message forum know all the answers and can't possibly be wrong; and when challenged, start throwing insults about yet cry when a few are happily returned.



Cry, where did I cry, you fantasist?  Jog on.



> In short, your posts are wank, VP. Best to stop surrounding yourself with people who just think like you. It'll give you a false sense of security.



Project much, do you? [/quote]


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> He may have rented it for the claimed purpose, even if that were confirmed it doesn't mean he habitually carried a gun, and the delay since his fam's shooting implies he was using a lot more discretion than a proper 'gang thug' if that were in fact the truth.


Yes. it's likely he was a responsible 'gang thug' - not a 'proper' one at all.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Cry, where did I cry, you fantasist?  Jog on.
> 
> Project much, do you?


I dunno, you cried on about some crap about me belittling people, when you're actually just a nasty little dimwit.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Yes. it's likely he was a responsible 'gang thug' - not a 'proper' one at all.


You must live some nice place where there isn't a difference between 'people that hang with their local friends' and 'mental rapists that eat shopkeepres and children for breakfast'.


----------



## Garek (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course, you're right *in spite of yourself*, because while you're attempting to stigmatise with your banal comment, you've accidenatlly brought up a truth that's been evident to historians and social scientists for at least 150 years: That elements of the working class (I believe that your fellow-eugenicists of that era referred to them as "the residuum") are more likely to be criminal.



Or to rephrase it slightly "to have their actions categorised as criminal".

Steal a pair of trainers and you're thief scum.
Steal a country and your on a plinth on the Mall.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> You must live some nice place where there isn't a difference between 'people that hang with their local friends' and 'mental rapists that eat shopkeepres and children for breakfast'.


I live in Edmonton and I'm not on the side of trigger-happy police, believe it or not.

Go on, don't let me interfere with your attempts to paint this guy as angel. It's so fucking important, isn't it! People have died since and lost their homes - but go on.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I live in Edmonton and I'm not on the side of trigger-happy police, believe it or not.
> 
> Go on, don't let me interfere with your attempts to paint this guy as angel. It's so fucking important, isn't it! People have died since and lost their homes - but go on.


If there were a death penalty in the UK for 'bein a dogdgey bastard', then there would be a huge fuckton dead, not just the hadful.


----------



## Garek (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, a good hiding always detered the rioters in Belfast and Derry.
> 
> You keyboard warriors, you really haven't got a fucking clue.



If a good hiding doesn't work you could always send in the army. That'll work.

Oh no wait a second...


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Garek said:


> Or to rephrase it slightly "to have their actions categorised as criminal".
> 
> Steal a pair of trainers and you're thief scum.
> Steal a country and your on a plinth on the Mall.


Who puts that plinth there? Who supports it? Drawing false comparisons to excuse really disturbing looting and arson - why would you want to?


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> If there were a death penalty in the UK for 'bein a dogdgey bastard', then there would be a huge fuckton dead, not just the hadful.


Silly, comparison again. A blunder/psycho cop is worrying and the difficulties of his job doesn't excuse it - hardly death penalty policy, though, is it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

Garek said:


> Or to rephrase it slightly "to have their actions categorised as criminal".
> 
> Steal a pair of trainers and you're thief scum.
> Steal a country and your on a plinth on the Mall.



I mentioned (on one of Urban's interminable "class" threads  ) that the social historian John Benson wrote an interesting take (based on, among other things, research by Booth and his contemporaries) on "working class incomes" which was quantified as having four components: money earned legitimately; money borrowed from friends/relatives on short-term/informal terms of repayment; forms of charity "from above"; the proceeds of petty crime.

It's certainly an interesting take, and although we could probably replace "charity" with "welfare to an extent, it certainly has held true through my own lifetime - most of the people I grew up with had no choice but to be non-averse to "snide" sources of income, and the same holds true for my neighbours etc.

And yeah, steal a loaf of bread and get transported as against steal a realm and get remembered in the history books!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Who puts that plinth there? Who supports it? Drawing false comparisons to excuse really disturbing looting and arson - why would you want to?



Where has he excused "really disturbing looting and arson"?


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Where has he excused "really disturbing looting and arson"?


So he's alluding to what then?


----------



## Garek (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> So he's alluding to what then?



The way what is and is not a criminal action is something defined and imposed by the state.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Garek said:


> The way what is and is not a criminal action is something defined and imposed by the state.


Are you alluding to the theft of trainers by rioters?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> So he's alluding to what then?



Well, that's your case to make, isn't it? You obviously believe he's alluding to "really disturbing looting and arson", but could have been alluding to someone nicking a pair of trainers, which doesn't exactly constitute "disturbing looting", and certainly doesn't constitute "arson".

Up your game, eh?

(sits back, waits)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Are you alluding to the theft of trainers by rioters?



Ah, NOW you seek to find out, *after* you've sounded off! Well done!!


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Silly, comparison again. A blunder/psycho cop is worrying and the difficulties of his job doesn't excuse it - hardly death penalty policy, though, is it?


I don't think you get what I'm on about, I'm not sure you ever will...


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, that's your case to make, isn't it? You obviously believe he's alluding to "really disturbing looting and arson", but could have been alluding to someone nicking a pair of trainers, which doesn't exactly constitute "disturbing looting", and certainly doesn't constitute "arson".
> 
> Up your game, eh?
> 
> (sits back, waits)


You can't allude to trainers being nicked by rioters without the whole context of mass looting and arson. Of course, that would be belittling what's happened over the past few days and hence reactions to it, which was my point, of course.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I don't think you get what I'm on about, I'm not sure you ever will...


I don't know what the 96 year old dear across the road from me is on about half the time either.


----------



## Santino (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> You can't allude to trainers being nicked by rioters without the whole context of mass looting and arson. Of course, that would be belittling what's happened over the past few days and hence reactions to it, which was my point, of course.



I don't think you know what 'allude' means.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

If he was shot in cold blood, don't think I don't find that disturbing.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Santino said:


> I don't think you know what 'allude' means.


I think you don't. He wasn't alluding to 'trainers being nicked', as that's what he actually said; but alluding to 'trainers being nicked in the riots, in the past few days' - that he didn't specifically say in the post.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 10, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I don't think you get what I'm on about, I'm not sure you ever will...


Aaaaand if you ever had any sort of love for me....


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ah, NOW you seek to find out, *after* you've sounded off! Well done!!


Reasonable to think he was given the context of this thread and mass looting across the country in the past few days.

But, maybe you need to take a few leaves out of your own book, when you suddenly jumped in like a moron, yesterday, 'projecting' so much bullshit.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Who puts that plinth there? Who supports it? Drawing false comparisons to excuse really disturbing looting and arson - why would you want to?



Who's excusing looting and arson? Can you point it out to me please? Far be it from me to suggest you're building strawmen and generally talking out of your arse.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Who's excusing looting and arson? Can you point it out to me please? Far be it from me to suggest you're building strawmen and generally talking out of your arse.



Why bother when you can copy and paste 



faux pas said:


> You can't allude to trainers being nicked by rioters without the whole context of mass looting and arson. Of course, that would be belittling what's happened over the past few days and hence reactions to it, which was my point, of course.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

My old man once had his car nicked when he'd left it unlocked with the keys in the ignition. Obviously, by pointing out that he was a bit of a twat for leaving it like that I was _excusing _the thieves.


----------



## Santino (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I think you don't. He wasn't alluding to 'trainers being nicked', as that's what he actually said; but alluding to 'trainers being nicked in the riots, in the past few days' - that he didn't specifically say in the post.



Tell me what you think allude means, and whether it can be done with or without context, whatever that means.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Why bother when you can copy and paste



No, I said please point out where someone excused looting and arson, I didn't ask you to quote one of your own pointless, cretinous "arguments".


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Santino said:


> Tell me what you think allude means, and whether it can be done with or without context, whatever that means.


If there's an absence of context then one might be alluding to one. In this case it's fair to assume an allusion to the recent riots.

zzzz


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> No, I said please point out where someone excused looting and arson, I didn't ask you to quote one of your own pointless, cretinous "arguments".


Oh, sorry, in that case fuck off and find it yourself.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> If there's an absence of context then one might be alluding to one. In this case it's fair to assume an allusion to the recent riots.
> 
> zzzz



What the fuck are you on about? I asked you to point out where anyone excused rioting and looting and you post this meaningless bollocks  Are you a bit "special"?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Oh, sorry, in that case fuck off and find it yourself.



I can't, because it's not there. Which was my point, soft lad.


----------



## Santino (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> If there's an absence of context then one might be alluding to one.



Epic.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> What the fuck are you on about? I asked you to point out where anyone excused rioting and looting and you post this meaningless bollocks  Are you a bit "special"?


Oh, the irony!


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> If there's an absence of context then one might be alluding to one. In this case it's fair to assume an allusion to the recent riots.
> 
> zzzz


Hello.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Santino said:


> Epic.


Epic, my arse!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> You can't allude to trainers being nicked by rioters without the whole context of mass looting and arson. Of course, that would be belittling what's happened over the past few days and hence reactions to it, which was my point, of course.



Did arson accompany every incidence of looting, or _vice versa_? If not then your "point" is flawed, and you're merely conflating events to make a point.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Oh, the irony!



Please do point out the "irony".


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Did arson accompany every incidence of looting, or _vice versa_? If not then your "point" is flawed, and you're merely conflating events to make a point.


Separate everything into disparate acts if you will but together they form a context.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

Santino said:


> Epic.



"Heaven's Gate" was an epic.

It was also shite.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Separate everything into disparate acts if you will but together they form a context.



Together they can form *many* different contexts, depending on how you interpret them.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Heaven's Gate" was an epic.
> 
> It was also shite.



Lies. One of the most underrated films ever.


----------



## Santino (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Epic, my arse!



Is one alluding to one?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Lies. One of the most underrated films ever.



I fell asleep during it, therefore I arbitrarily decided it was shite. 

(I don't generally fall asleep during films, even really bad ones)


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Together they can form *many* different contexts, depending on how you interpret them.


Right, and people don't tend to react to some raw platonic-esque conception of theft of trainers, in a 'thieving scumbag' kind of way, do they?


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Santino said:


> Is one alluding to one?


I would reply to this, but I don't believe you know what 'allude' means.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Separate everything into disparate acts if you will but together they form a context.



What is this thing they call context? Is it a bit like the socio-economic context in which these riots have taken place? Kids with no future, who are constantly told you should be judged on what you own? Who are told you are nothing unless you have all the right gear? Gear that is well beyond their means and will likely remain so? Combined with a police force that constantly lies to them and treats them like animals? Kids who have no viable political outlet for their concerns? Like that?

I thought it went without saying but I'll spell it out to you, since your mental faculties are clearly lacking: I haven't once condoned looting or arson, not once - I won't because I don't approve of people burning working class people out of their homes or frightening vulnerable people. But I can understand some of the reasons _why_ it happened. When people have serious, legitimate grievances and no legitimate political outlet through which to express and remedy them this is what happens - it's ugly, it's incoherent, it's offensive and it's not really any help to anyone.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I'm dead clever, me. I'll just keep insulting people - that's a great substitute for actual argument!



LOL


----------



## Santino (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> If there's an absence of context then one might be alluding to one.



Go on then, tell us what it means when one alludes to one.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> What is this thing they call context? Is it a bit like the socio-economic context in which these riots have taken place? Kids with no future, who are constantly told you should be judged on what you own? Who are told you are nothing unless you have all the right gear? Gear that is well beyond their means and will likely remain so? Combined with a police force that constantly lies to them and treats them like animals? Kids who have no viable political outlet for their concerns? Like that?
> 
> I thought it went without saying but I'll spell it out to you, since your mental faculties are clearly lacking: I haven't once condoned looting or arson, not once - I won't because I don't approve of people burning working class people out of their homes or frightening vulnerable people. But I can understand some of the reasons _why_ it happened. When people have serious, legitimate grievances and no legitimate political outlet through which to express and remedy them this is what happens - it's ugly, it's incoherent, it's offensive and it's not really any help to anyone.


Good speech. Wrong person.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Santino said:


> Go on then, tell us what it means when one alludes to one.


When one alludes to a context, one refers to the context without talking about it directly.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> I would reply to this, but I don't believe you know what 'allude' means.


ah yes your usual trick when you're stumped for a proper answer - sneer at the other persons alleged lack of intelligence.
you keep doing that, and it's pathetic


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

I'm struggling to see what "point" you're making here now faux pas, other than that you're an arrogant twat with delusions of adequacy - you're making that point loud and clear.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> ah yes your usual trick when you're stumped for a proper answer - sneer at the other persons alleged lack of intelligence.
> you keep doing that, and it's pathetic


Not so. Read through the preceding relevant posts.

Also, for the record, being as some seem to be blissfully unaware of their own style of engagement:



Streathamite said:


> Seriously, are you blind, or just a tad simple-minded?


----------



## Santino (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> If there's an absence of context then one might be alluding to one.





faux pas said:


> When one alludes to a context, one refers to the context without talking about it directly.



So, if I may paraphrase, when there's an absence of context, one might be referring to the context.

Are you SURE you know what 'allude' means?


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm struggling to see what "point" you're making here now faux pas, other than that you're an arrogant twat with delusions of adequacy - you're making that point loud and clear.


Actually, I don't know what *your* beef is. You've been barking up the wrong tree. It's not about you, okay. You can calm down now.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Santino said:


> So, if I may paraphrase, when there's an absence of context, one might be referring to the context.
> 
> Are you SURE you know what 'allude' means?



The sole absence of the context doesn't infer that one IS alluding to one, only that one might be.

Now I'm convinced you don't know what 'allude' means.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Also, for the record, being as some seem to be blissfully unaware of their own style of engagement:


yes, but you've quoted it without the rest of the post I wrote, which _does_ contain a fair and reasoned argument.
not really cricket that, is it?
(In truth, that was a temperamental over-reaction by me, which I shouldn't have said, but it was in response to a staggeringly dumb post, as anyone can see)


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> The sole absence of the context doesn't infer that one IS alluding to one, only that one might be.
> 
> Now I'm convinced you don't know what 'allude' means.


Actually, that's too ambiguous for you to grasp, let me rephrase:

The sole absence of a context doesn't necessarily mean one is or might be alluding to one. My only point was, given the past few days, it's reasonable to think the poster was alluding to one ('one' being the riots').


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

Jesus Christ, where did this one come from?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2011)

The heart of society, same as the rioters.


----------



## Santino (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> The sole absence of the context doesn't infer that one IS alluding to one, only that one might be.
> 
> Now I'm convinced you don't know what 'allude' means.



Do you know what 'infer' means?


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Santino said:


> Do you know what 'infer' means?


How about 'fuck off you tiresome brainless moron'.

Know what that means?


----------



## Santino (Aug 10, 2011)

Did you google 'infer' before posting that? Either that or you thought for 6 minutes about what your reply was going to be.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> How about 'fuck off you tiresome brainless moron'.
> 
> Know what that means?


talk about a default setting...


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas , can you just say what your point is please ?


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

Santino said:


> Did you google 'infer' before posting that? Either that or you thought for 6 minutes about what your reply was going to be.


God, give this guy a brain!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Right, and people don't tend to react to some raw platonic-esque conception of theft of trainers, in a 'thieving scumbag' kind of way, do they?



How would you or I *know* how they might conceive it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> ah yes your usual trick when you're stumped for a proper answer - sneer at the other persons alleged lack of intelligence.
> you keep doing that, and it's pathetic



I don't agree, I think it's cute.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> How would you or I *know* how they might conceive it?


How do you know anything about what people tend to do?


----------



## Santino (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> How do you know anything about what people tend to do?



Maybe you could infer something about it?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't agree, I think it's cute.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> How do you know anything about what people tend to do?



I can't. I can suppose, I can assume, I can extrapolate from prior knowledge, but actually *knowing* is usually a hindsight thing, where your suppositions, extrapolations and assumptions are, to a greater or lesser degree, confirmed.

Human relations aren't like physics, there are no "laws" of behaviour that extend beyond "extremely general but not universally applicable". Even tendencies may be specific to context.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

Santino said:


> Maybe you could infer something about it?



Practically, that's all you can do.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I can't. I can suppose, I can assume, I can extrapolate from prior knowledge, but actually *knowing* is usually a hindsight thing, where your suppositions, extrapolations and assumptions are, to a greater or lesser degree, confirmed.
> 
> Human relations aren't like physics, there are no "laws" of behaviour that extend beyond "extremely general but not universally applicable". Even tendencies may be specific to context.


What tendencies may be specific to context, then?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> What tendencies may be specific to context, then?


Tendencies toward certain types of behaviour have been shown to be context-specific, i.e. the behaviour only emerges with certain situations. Milgram showed that tendencies to obedience behaviour that didn't emerge in some contexts emerged under others.

Another example would be your tendency to abuse, which only emerges when someone points out that you're wrong/talking shite/a tool.

Hope that helps!


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

,


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 10, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> faux pas , can you just say what your point is please ?



Please ?


----------



## belboid (Aug 10, 2011)

Milgr*a*m.

As you like to be picky.......

Oh, and no one has claimed 'that certain types of behaviour *only* emerge with certain situations.' Thats you making things up again, that is.

oh look, faux has edited its post, probly just realised what shite it was talking


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> As you exemplified your point with Milgrim: Just because Milgrim showed that 'tendencies to obedience behaviour emerged in some contexts', how does it follow that certain types of behaviour *only* emerge with certain situations'?
> 
> Is it a bit like your tendency not be able to see your own abusive nature?



You're still looking for laws of behaviour. They don't exist, so give it up. Certain types of behaviour *almost* only emerge in certain situations, but you can only show that for specific individuals or small groups. For other individuals the same type of behaviour might only emerge in very different situations.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

fuck it


----------



## belboid (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> fuck it


translation:  I have been completely ripped apart so I'm getting out of here. Again.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

belboid said:


> translation: I have been completely ripped apart so I'm getting out of here. Again.


translation: got better things to do then fend off cliquey-leftists


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 10, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> Please ?


 
????


----------



## belboid (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> translation: got better things to do then fend off cliquey-leftists


translation:   waaaahhh, mummy, those nasty boys are calling me names again


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> translation: got better things to do then fend off cliquey-leftists



No leftie me, social psychologist.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

belboid said:


> translation: waaaahhh, mummy, those nasty boys are calling me names again


translation: I'm an abusive left-leaning twonk who needs to fight my battles on-line on a forum that heavily favours me.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 10, 2011)

that is all

See you all when you grow up and join the real world!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> translation: I'm an abusive left-leaning twonk who needs to fight my battles on-line on a forum that heavily favours me.



It's reality that favours his arguments, not the forum


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> See you all when you grow up and join the real world!



Wahey! It's wingnut bingo - can you do "PC gawn mad" next please? I need it for a full house


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> translation: I'm an abusive left-leaning twonk who needs to fight my battles on-line on a forum that heavily favours me.



So it doesn't occur to you that it's your behaviour which makes conflict likely, as opposed forums that favour, or political leanings?

Go on, moan about "monothought cliques" next. That'll be *so* cute!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> You're still looking for laws of behaviour. They don't exist, so give it up. Certain types of behaviour *almost* only emerge in certain situations, but you can only show that for specific individuals or small groups. For other individuals the same type of behaviour might only emerge in very different situations.



Which I'm fairly sure is what I said before he misrepresented my post as saying things I hadn't actually said, IYSWIM.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which I'm fairly sure is what I said before he misrepresented my post as saying things I hadn't actually said, IYSWIM.



Oh I know. I was just hammering home the point.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> No leftie me, social psychologist.



Book-reading scum!!!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Book-reading scum!!!


Innit - we all know academia's run by a bunch of pinko traitors anyway


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> the one that duggan fired first, which they told the C4 reporter, bloke called Israel.



That's what I was asking. WHO told the media that Duggan shot first?


----------



## elbows (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> translation: I'm an abusive left-leaning twonk who needs to fight my battles on-line on a forum that heavily favours me.



You have been very rude and aggressive on this thread, and have undermined yourself in the process. Lash out at others all you like, it won't change the impression that you've made a tit of yourself here, and anything you may of had to say of substance has been lost.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> That's what I was asking. WHO told the media that Duggan shot first?


an officer in tottenham nick - as yet unidentified - whispered it unattributably in a compliant reporter's ear, in their usual smearing way. it's their oldest trick.
e2a; and Israel said - categorically - that the police had told him that. he didn't say which dibble.
I also rang a contact of mine on the _Haringey Independent, _who confirmed this


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

faux pas said:


> translation: got better things to do then fend off cliquey-leftists


you don't even realise what a prize dick you've made of yourself here, do you?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> an officer in tottenham nick - as yet unidentified - whispered it unattributably in a compliant reporter's ear, in their usual smearing way. it's their oldest trick.
> e2a; and Israel said - categorically - that the police had told him that. he didn't say which dibble.
> I also rang a contact of mine on the _Haringey Independent, _who confirmed this



Well this is the point then. Some unnamed copper has supposedly slipped a bit of dodgy info to some journo and you're happy to buy the "cover-up" line despite the fact that:

a) If the OB knew that the shot plod radio had been hit with a police round, there's not a hope of them being able to cover it up for any length of time.

b) If they were framing Duggan (as has been suggested on another thread) wouldn't they have had the foresight not to use a police bullet?

c) If they've used a "throw-down" why are excuses being made for Duggan possibly carrying a weapon for self-defence?

There are loads of questions here but you've already gone hook-line-and-sinker down the wrongful killing path. That's because you want to. Nothing wrong with that if that's your bag, most here would agree with you.

Of course nobody here is giving space for the eminently reasonable possibility that Duggan was stopped, had a gun, and got shot, while the shot copper collected a stray round from one of his mates. That may or may not have been the case, as I said, I hope it is, or something similar, because I'd rather Duggan was not murdered by a police officer. Others here, like that Draig tit, WANT him to have been murdered by a copper so as to bolster their acab agenda. Draig and his ilk don't give a fuck about the death so long as they can make capital out of it. In fact they're revelling in the possibility that someone may have been wrongly topped by a copper. Sick.

The truth will out eventually, it always does.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> <snip>
> 
> a) If the OB knew that the shot plod radio had been hit with a police round, there's not a hope of them being able to cover it up for any length of time.
> 
> ...



Sure but that doesn't necessarily matter if the aim is to influence public perception while the item is at the top of the news agenda.

If it hadn't been for the riots, this wouldn't still be page one stuff and "gangsta killed in shootout" would be the only recollection most people had of the affair.

I still talk to people who think Liverpool fans pissed on the dead at Hillsborough and that JC De Menezes was "acting suspiciously" thereby providing justification for shooting him.

Unless something happens like the footage of Simon Harwood attacking Ian Tomlinson that totally undermines the initial police-media spin-job, enough mud sticks to get the job done.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Unless something happens like the footage of Simon Harwood attacking Ian Tomlinson that totally undermines the initial police-media spin-job, enough mud sticks to get the job done.



There is no mud to stick, Bernie.

They've officially said that Duggan did not discharge a weapon, and that the shot cop was hit with a police round.

Now that prat Draig reckons that whether or not the (non police) gun was fired, is a primary point to establish. Anyone with half a brain would realise that's nonsense, since coppers don't have to wait until they're shot at before they shoot a threat.

We know that the non-police weapon was not fired. They've said that. The focus should now be on whether or not Duggan could reasonably have been considered to have constituted a threat.


----------



## elbows (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> There is no mud to stick, Bernie.
> 
> They've officially said that Duggan did not discharge a weapon, and that the shot cop was hit with a police round.



The mud stuck before they said that, thats the whole point.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

Sure but this case is still at the top of the news agenda due to the riots. Do you think anyone apart from friends and family would be interested it wasn't for the riots?

Everyone else would just remember 'gangsta killed in police shootout'

That's the whole point of getting your anonymous police source spin in *before* the IPCC investigation has time to report.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> There are loads of questions here but you've already gone hook-line-and-sinker down the wrongful killing path. That's because you want to. Nothing wrong with that if that's your bag, most here would agree with you.


No, I have NOT! I have said clearly on the mark Duggan thread that we should wait for the full IPCC report, but there are 2 things which ARE important and can't be denied
1) tottenham OB have racial harassment form going back decades
2) The Met have form for smearing their victims, also going back decades.
these are known facts.
I don't 'want to believe' anything - christ knows which corner of the universe you plucked that out of - I am simply distrustful of these OB from considerable personal experience.


> Some unnamed copper has supposedly slipped a bit of dodgy info


Supposedly? Are you calling C4's Mr Israel, and my contact a liar, or not? do you accept their veracity, or not? There's no 'supposedly' about it - he did.


> Of course nobody here is giving space for the possibility that Duggan was stopped, had a gun, and got shot, while the shot copper collected a stray round from one of his mates


EH? It's not clear if there was a second passenger in the car, whose the gun was, whther it was found on Duggan or not, and the only thing we know in fact (based on provisional forensic findings) is that all of the spent bullets analysed  were police bullets. so you're really not making much sense here.
Frankly, i'm baffled by your post.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2011)

'you're happy to buy the "cover-up" line despite the fact that:

a) If the OB knew that the shot plod radio had been hit with a police round, there's not a hope of them being able to cover it up for any length of time.'

you're assuming that they need bother with a convincing cover up- they know full well they do not need to bothere. You're just proving how naive you are wrt the london met, as you have done before.


----------



## noodles (Aug 10, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> 'you're happy to buy the "cover-up" line despite the fact that:
> 
> a) If the OB knew that the shot plod radio had been hit with a police round, there's not a hope of them being able to cover it up for any length of time.'
> 
> you're assuming that they need bother with a convincing cover up- they know full well they do not need to bothere. You're just proving how naive you are wrt the london met, as you have done before.



Personally, I really do think that if you believe that an officer deliberately shot a radio with a police issue gun and ammunition to create a cover-up, instead of using the (loaded) gun recovered from the scene, you are well into tinfoil hat territory.

In fact, forgetting about the radio and simply discharging one round from the gun recovered from the scene would have been far more practical way of doing this. Then they could say "Duggan opened fire, missed, and the bullet remains unrecovered".


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2011)

Spy, as you seem to have issues with a certain welsh poster (OK, ddraig) please do bear in mind that I am NOT HIM!


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Supposedly? Are you calling C4's Mr Israel, and my contact a liar, or not? do you accept their veracity, or not? There's no 'supposedly' about it - he did.



I don't know whether they're lying or not. That's not the point though. Even if some random copper has suggested, off the record, that Duggan fired, that's not necessarily indicative of a wider cover-up. In fact if the police had known that he _didn't_ fire, it would be a fucking stupid tactic, given that it's a deception that a child would realise could not be maintained.



> EH? It's not clear if there was a second passenger in the car, whose the gun was, whether it was found on Duggan or not, and the only thing we know in fact (based on provisional forensic findings) is that all of the spent bullets analysed were police bullets. so you're really not making much sense here.



Don't be daft. _You're_ not making sense!

You're trying to introduce evidence (or lack thereof) that currently doesn't exist.

At the moment we know that the bullets out were police ones, one hit a coppers radio, Duggan got popped, and there was a non-police firearm at the scene that was not discharged. That's it!

All I've done is given a possible alternative scenario to police murder, based on those facts, whilst allowing space for that not to have been the case. You're the one introducing the possibility of second passengers currently not in evidence!


----------



## Teepee (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Well this is the point then. Some unnamed copper has supposedly slipped a bit of dodgy info to some journo and you're happy to buy the "cover-up" line despite the fact that:
> 
> a) If the OB knew that the shot plod radio had been hit with a police round, there's not a hope of them being able to cover it up for any length of time.
> 
> ...



I'm swinging towards this explanation as well. No copper would be that dumb, especially since UK OB use dumdum bullets (banned in warfare, legal for police) which your average person on the street wouldn't have access to


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Spy, as you seem to have issues with a certain welsh poster (OK, ddraig) please do bear in mind that I am NOT HIM!



Yep, sorry about that. He made a really stupid comment earlier whilst we were talking I think, then I went out and all that stuff with Faux Pas went off and I got a bit confused!

Apologies.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2011)

noodles said:


> Personally, I really do think that if you believe that an officer deliberately shot a radio with a police issue gun and ammunition to create a cover-up, instead of using the (loaded) gun recovered from the scene, you are well into tinfoil hat territory.
> 
> In fact, forgetting about the radio and simply discharging one round from the gun recovered from the scene would have been far more practical way of doing this. Then they could say "Duggan opened fire, missed, and the bullet remains unrecovered".



I'm in more or less fact free speculation territory, yes, based on personal prejudice and the past record of the met. Who knows how the bullet got in the radio- I am merely speculating


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

noodles said:


> Personally, I really do think that if you believe that an officer deliberately shot a radio with a police issue gun and ammunition to create a cover-up, instead of using the (loaded) gun recovered from the scene, you are well into tinfoil hat territory.
> 
> In fact, forgetting about the radio and simply discharging one round from the gun recovered from the scene would have been far more practical way of doing this. Then they could say "Duggan opened fire, missed, and the bullet remains unrecovered".



Once again, the police do not have to show that Duggan FIRED the gun. A police officer can (indeed should) shoot someone before they open fire if that person poses a threat to others.

So this notion that they've colluded to imply that he shot at them falls down on several levels. Not least because the only official police comment on the matter, is that he didn't!


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

Thing is, the pattern of heavily spun media reports denigrating the deceased and implicitly justifying police actions appearing _*immediately*_ whenever they kill someone, while the incident is at the top of the news agenda and long before evidence-based (often substantially less comfortable for the police) findings appear, is not at all a matter of speculation. It has happened over and over again and its effects are still felt.

People still believe that Liverpool fans pissed on and robbed corpses at Hillsborough. People still believe JC De Menezes was 'acting suspiciously' and for many people, Duggan will always be 'that gangsta who was killed after he shot that cop and hit his radio'

That's the whole point of the technique, get your spin in *first* while the story is on page one and frame people's perception your way, before any evidence-based findings like those of the IPCC, court case or a public inquiry can appear to spoil the pro-police PR picture you're painting.


----------



## noodles (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Once again, the police do not have to show that Duggan FIRED the gun. A police officer can (indeed should) shoot someone before they open fire if that person poses a threat to others.
> 
> So this notion that they've colluded to imply that he shot at them, falls down on several levels. Not least because they've now said he didn't!



No, I agree, I do not buy this collusion nonsense at all - my point was that _if_ an officer was stupid enough to attempt a "cover up" along the lines of Duggan firing at police, then they would surely discharge a round from the weapon found at the scene into the radio or indeed into nothing at all. Hence I refuse to believe that any officer would be stupid enough to fire a police round into a police radio to try to cover this up.


----------



## noodles (Aug 10, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Thing is, the pattern of heavily spun media reports denigrating the deceased and implicitly justifying police actions appearing _*immediately*_ whenever they kill someone, while the incident is at the top of the news agenda and long before evidence-based (often substantially less comfortable for the police) findings appear, is not at all a matter of speculation. It has happened over and over again and its effects are still felt.
> 
> People still believe that Liverpool fans pissed on and robbed corpses at Hillsborough. People still believe JC De Menezes was 'acting suspiciously' and for many people, Duggan will always be 'that gangsta who was killed after he shot that cop and hit his radio'
> 
> That's the whole point of the technique ... get your spin in first while the story is on page one and frame people's perception your way, before any evidence-based findings like those of the IPCC, court case or a public inquiry can appear to spoil the pro-police PR picture you're painting.



That's very true, and it is a vicious cycle. The other side of the same coin - i.e. stuff like the rumours going round Tottenham on Friday, Saturday that Duggan was "executed" with two rounds to the face - doesn't perhaps encourage the police to be open and honest. Which then leads to public distrust. Which then leads to rumours of "executions" and so on.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

noodles said:


> That's very true, and it is a vicious cycle. The other side of the same coin - i.e. stuff like the rumours going round Tottenham on Friday, Saturday that Duggan was "executed" with two rounds to the face - doesn't perhaps encourage the police to be open and honest. Which then leads to public distrust. Which then leads to rumours of "executions" and so on.



Yep, quite. Which is why I think that the Met's PR chief should be held accountable for this practice. He's either making it happen or letting it happen. Either way he's doing the police and the public no favours.

He's got a lot of tricky questions to answer about the whole News International corruption scandal too ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/19/phone-hacking-spotlight-dick-fedorcio


----------



## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

The other side of the coin is Darcus Howe saying the cops blew Duggan's head off.

He caught one in the bicep and one in the head, which I'm sure is very much still attached to his body.

Ironic he was pissed off about a supposed decapitation in Tottenham...


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2011)

They aren't supposed to need encouragement, they are supposed to be open and honest regardless. And with- in recent events, let alone history- the mets reputation for getting away with murder and being on the take?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

noodles said:


> Personally, I really do think that if you believe that an officer deliberately shot a radio with a police issue gun and ammunition to create a cover-up, instead of using the (loaded) gun recovered from the scene, you are well into tinfoil hat territory.
> 
> In fact, forgetting about the radio and simply discharging one round from the gun recovered from the scene would have been far more practical way of doing this. Then they could say "Duggan opened fire, missed, and the bullet remains unrecovered".



The gun attributed to Duggan is apparently a starter pistol bored out to take live ammo,. Even the most dick-headed of coppers would be aware of the likelihood of the fucker cooking-off in his hand if he fired a shot from it, and forensics would very easily establish whether or not it *had* been fired, if the OB decided to lie about that point.

It's quite likely that the shot that hit the radio was, as is now being accepted, a discharge from the weapon of the same officer who executed Duggan.

I wouldn't be surprised if the armed police involved eventually go for the "accidental discharge" line in order to ensure that the worst that could be faced would be a manslaughter charge. Of course, any rigourous investigation of the possibility of accidental discharges from an MP5 would turn up the information that they're not prone to mechanical problems, and that the usual cause of accidental discharges is "user error", generally with the safety, and not keeping the trigger finger on the trigger guard rather than the trigger.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

noodles said:


> No, I agree, I do not buy this collusion nonsense at all - my point was that _if_ an officer was stupid enough to attempt a "cover up" along the lines of Duggan firing at police, then they would surely discharge a round from the weapon found at the scene into the radio or indeed into nothing at all. Hence I refuse to believe that any officer would be stupid enough to fire a police round into a police radio to try to cover this up.



Quite. ANY weapon other than a police one!

An intellectually challenged 5 year old wouldn't fuck that up.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's quite likely that the shot that hit the radio was, as is now being accepted, a discharge from the weapon of the same officer who [killed] Duggan.



Ricochet?

Haven't seen that. Got a link?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Once again, the police do not have to show that Duggan FIRED the gun. A police officer can (indeed should) shoot someone before they open fire if that person poses a threat to others.
> 
> So this notion that they've colluded to imply that he shot at them, falls down on several levels. Not least because they've now said he didn't!



They do have to show, though, that he was actually armed, able to deploy the weapon, and putting them in jeopardy.

At least, in a criminal justice system that wasn't institutionally biased toward accepting the justifications of its' own personnel, however far-fetched, they'd have to show that. As it is, they'll walk. They always walk.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Ricochet?
> 
> Haven't seen that. Got a link?


Earlier in the thread, late last night/early this morning, I think. I'll have a butchers.


----------



## noodles (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> They do have to show, though, that he was actually armed, able to deploy the weapon, and putting them in jeopardy.



I'm not being pedantic here, I'm genuinely curious to know as I have not a clue about this stuff, but would they only have to show that "they" were put in jeopardy? Surely if a member of the public was in jeopardy then that would also be sufficient for them to open fire?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> They do have to show, though, that he was actually armed, able to deploy the weapon, and putting them in jeopardy.



Absolutely. Or at the very least that the shooting officer reasonably believed the above to be so.

Noodles, they can shoot if they believe the suspect to constitute an immediate threat to them or anyone else.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

noodles said:


> No, I agree, I do not buy this collusion nonsense at all - my point was that _if_ an officer was stupid enough to attempt a "cover up" along the lines of Duggan firing at police, then they would surely discharge a round from the weapon found at the scene into the radio or indeed into nothing at all. Hence I refuse to believe that any officer would be stupid enough to fire a police round into a police radio to try to cover this up.



Coppers in London must be much cleverer than those in Yorkshire and Derbyshire - I've had dealings with police who would definitely be both stupid and arrogant enough to try this on - although I'd hope such fuckwits wouldn't be let near a gun, ever.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

noodles said:


> I'm not being pedantic here, I'm genuinely curious to know as I have not a clue about this stuff, but would they only have to show that "they" were put in jeopardy? Surely if a member of the public was in jeopardy then that would also be sufficient for them to open fire?



Sure, but in this case one of the coppers claimed that he fired because he believed that his (and, we must presume, his colleagues') life was in danger, in which case (as in the Harry Stanley case) they get to top a member of the public and then walk away with barely a mark on their record.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 10, 2011)

I don't think its a case that they even needed to cover it up, they knew it would be IPCC as soon as the first shot was fired...

So in the heat o fth emoment make sure he's down and that he's not going to cause any more problems and that's why two shots were fired... not one... this wasn't a case of double tap as the other officer would not have been in the line of fire unless the shot person moved...

so they simply say the following man shot dead after a routine stop.  A hand gun was recovered from the scene and a police officer is in hospital after a bullet struck their radio...

No need to say anything else the tabloids and their racist writers will fill in the blanks...

The police then know this will be sufficent to allow the seeds of doubt to be sown sufficiently that were this to ever come to court people will half remember what they've been told and think must be guilty and more importantly the police were justified he did have a gun and a police officer was shot...

The police can then hand over to the IPCC and say well we can't talk about an ongoing IPCC investigation knowing full well the tabloids and their hencemen are putting the word about that a coal faced immigrant of dubious background was gunned down by heroic police...

Basically the law needs changing which says that the police aren't in any case likely to be referred to the IPCC allowed to put out a statement, any officer doing so will be jailed for 3 months instantly... no due process it's this serious.

Time and time again the police have used this tactic to discredit and smear those they execute in cold blood...

JCDM vaulted over the barrier had on a heavy jacket
Stanley had a shot gun and refused to respond when challenged
The Wood Green Fertilizer not Bomber was a peado
Derek Bentley shouted let him have it...

etc etc etc...

Basically if they are involved with any shooting they should be forced by law to shut up instantly...

they can talk to their direct officers they can talk to the IPCC they can talk to the families of the person they've summeraly executed but if they talk to the press then they are jailed instantly... in general populace no fucking grace of favour conditions for the ex cop...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Coppers in London must be much cleverer than those in Yorkshire and Derbyshire - I've had dealings with police who would definitely be both stupid and arrogant enough to try this on - although I'd hope such fuckwits wouldn't be let near a gun, ever.



To be fair, Norm, you'd have to be spectacularly stupid, way more than the average bacon-head, to put a shot out of one of those bored-out pieces of cheap steel that constitute starting pistols, Brococks and "replicas". You've got even odds of the chamber and/or the barrel rupturing and taking part of your hand off. IIRC "The London Programme" did a feature on these converted firearms back around the millennium, when they'd were first become a big problem, that involved using a proofing house to test one with a standard 9mm round, and the fucking thing blew apart.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 10, 2011)

tbf it depends on whether it's drilled or machined out ...

and whether it's been decommissioned or was never a live firer in the first place...

pay and sprays round here are still remarkably cheap, when you consider the damage ...


----------



## SpineyNorman (Aug 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> To be fair, Norm, you'd have to be spectacularly stupid, way more than the average bacon-head, to put a shot out of one of those bored-out pieces of cheap steel that constitute starting pistols, Brococks and "replicas". You've got even odds of the chamber and/or the barrel rupturing and taking part of your hand off. IIRC "The London Programme" did a feature on these converted firearms back around the millennium, when they'd were first become a big problem, that involved using a proofing house to test one with a standard 9mm round, and the fucking thing blew apart.



I'm sure you're right really, but at times like this I remember the time when I was pulled over for a drugs search on my way home from work, still wearing my overalls. The copper opened the boot, looked in my tool box, saw my hammer and said, "what's the hammer for." To which I replied, "knocking nails in." It was great watching his not quite so thick partner try not to laugh.

There was also one in my home town who liked to stamp on peoples' fingers when they were being restrained - he was too stupid to realise phones have cameras on them these days, last I heard he'd been suspended.

I'd say it's probably unlikely that a copper trained to use firearms would be so stupid, but I wouldn't put it past some of the normal coppers round here if they were put in that position


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 11, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Nobody thinks firebombing your local pub is a good thing to do! Jeez.


Well apart from one notable exception who's boasted about doing such a thing in the past, but is now arguing for the use of water cannons/rubber bullets against protesters.

BTW VP you're completely wrong about Heaven's Gate, it's a great film.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 11, 2011)

elbows said:


> You have been very rude and aggressive on this thread, and have undermined yourself in the process. Lash out at others all you like, it won't change the impression that you've made a tit of yourself here, and anything you may of had to say of substance has been lost.


Absolutely crazy! Majority all counter-abuse. Roll it back a bit, read and look. Some posters here are literally blind to their own abuse. Perhaps because they're so used to dishing it out. Why should you respond nicely to nasty little abusive comments strewn about the posts directed at you? Please, care to look properly before verbalising this inane conclusion of yours (and bizarrely, not just yours).


----------



## elbows (Aug 11, 2011)

I took considerable time to read very many of your posts before I voiced my opinion. It was a waste of time, worm.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 11, 2011)

elbows said:


> I took considerable time to read very many of your posts before I voiced my opinion. It was a waste of time, worm.


What do you mean - 'worm'?

Ok, lets try again: *Majority all counter-abuse. Roll it back a bit, read and look. *(This means not my posts) If you can't see that it's majority counter-abuse, God only knows!


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 11, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Absolutely crazy! Majority all counter-abuse. Roll it back a bit, read and look. Some posters here are literally blind to their own abuse. Perhaps because they're so used to dishing it out. Why should you respond nicely to nasty little abusive comments strewn about the posts directed at you? Please, care to look properly before verbalising this inane conclusion of yours (and bizarrely, not just yours).


by any reckoning, you started the abuse, and have contributed the lion's share. if you don't see this, you're massively self-delusional, but I can assure you just about every other poster on this thread does.
(bet you reply to this with abuse, btw)


----------



## Santino (Aug 11, 2011)

faux pas said:


> What do you mean - 'worm'?
> 
> Ok, lets try again: *Majority all counter-abuse. Roll it back a bit, read and look. *(This means not my posts) If you can't see that it's majority counter-abuse, God only knows!



You're a cock, you're a cock, you're a cock.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 11, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> by any reckoning, you started the abuse, and have contributed the lion's share. if you don't see this, you're massively self-delusional, but I can assure you just about every other poster on this thread does.
> (bet you reply to this with abuse, btw)



Delusional - wow. Okay, had to finally check it out! Okay, these are all the abusive, ad hominem attacks directed at me on this thread, from what I could find. Interesting you claim 'I started the abuse' as the last one is yours, right at the beginning when you started to insult me, remember?

Okay, hopefully the following will put the bullshit claims about me being unjustifiable abusive to rest, and illustrate your own blindness to the nasty ways you conduct yourselves on these boards. Yes, I've been abusive, of course, who wouldn't when faced with this:

Are you going to stick a crayon up your nose? Maybe soil your underwear in an attempt to get attention?​ 
You project your own crassness and stupidity onto others​ 
you sure as hell need to get an intellect.​ 
So you don't have a life? Interesting but unsurprising​ 
I'm too busy pimping your mother and female relatives, obviously.​ 
Fucking hell, it's like listening to a village idiot gibbering.​ 
or will you be sitting behind your keyboard, masturbating?​ 
you cheese-witted bore​ 
Christ you're a thick wanker​ 
You ignorant prick.​ 
i don't assume you are an idiot because I disagree with you; i think you are an idiot because you clearly, patently are one, with the capacity for rational thought processes of a pot-plant, and all the well informed understanding of our society's problems of the average gibbon.​ 
run along, cretin, there's a good little neanderthal, go and wank over your copy of the police gazette.​ 
You're understanding less n less with each comment. At this rate you'll be back in the womb before you get to 100 posts!​ 
It seems my other prediction is rapidly coming right tho, you are understanding less n less each post, even basic English is beyond you now.​ 
wow, truly thou art clueless​ 
you don't even realise what a prize dick you've made of yourself ​ 
 you sir, are such a complete and utter brain-damaged moron that such things would be wasted on you. go and crawl back under your rock with your copy of the Sun and your Janet & John guide to modern society, there's a good chap, reasoned, adult debate is not for you.​


----------



## faux pas (Aug 11, 2011)

Santino said:


> You're a cock, you're a cock, you're a cock.


----------



## Santino (Aug 11, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Delusional - wow. Okay, had to finally check it out! Okay, these are all the abusive, ad hominem attacks directed at me on this thread, from what I could find. Interesting you claim 'I started the abuse' as the last one is yours, right at the beginning when you started to insult me, remember?
> 
> Okay, hopefully the following will put the bullshit claims about me being unjustifiable abusive to rest, and illustrate your own blindness to the nasty ways you conduct yourselves on these boards. Yes, I've been abusive, of course, who wouldn't when faced with this:
> 
> ...



Missed me out, you dick.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 11, 2011)

Santino said:


> Missed me out, you dick.


You can't win. Hypocrisy is there for all to see, so it's now just a laugh ROFL

Fine by me prick!


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 11, 2011)

faux pas said:


> you cheese-witted bore​


​
 <Like>​
Whose was that?​


----------



## faux pas (Aug 11, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> <Like>​
> Whose was that?​


Someone who claims I'm abusive.


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 11, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> <Like>​
> Whose was that?​


 
I think it was Pickman's , but I may be wrong .


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 11, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Delusional - wow. Okay, had to finally check it out! Okay, these are all the abusive, ad hominem attacks directed at me on this thread, from what I could find. Interesting you claim 'I started the abuse' as the last one is yours, right at the beginning when you started to insult me, remember?
> 
> Okay, hopefully the following will put the bullshit claims about me being unjustifiable abusive to rest, and illustrate your own blindness to the nasty ways you conduct yourselves on these boards. Yes, I've been abusive, of course, who wouldn't when faced with this:
> 
> ...


I can't speak for other posters, but ALL of my ones there were in response to YOU starting with the insults. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.
and stop trying to play the injured little martyr; no-one is fooled


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 11, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> I think it was Pickman's , but I may be wrong .


nope, not picker's, think of something large, black and white, of the bear family, eats bamboo and the first name begins with a 'V'


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 11, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> nope, not picker's, think of something large, black and white, of the bear family, eats bamboo and the first name begins with a 'V'


 
Ooooh ---er ------ Voice mail ???  

Nah VP ---- you are right !  Apols.


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 11, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Someone who claims I'm abusive.


 
Which , tbf , you are .

Selective quoting---- we ALL already know that trick.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 11, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> Ooooh ---er ------ Voice mail ???
> 
> Nah VP ---- you are right !  Apols.



I really don't do cryptic well.


----------



## Maidmarian (Aug 11, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I really don't do cryptic well.


oh , I dunno !


----------



## Corax (Aug 11, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I really don't do cryptic well.



Aggressive bear finds itself top in purple, exits in squad car!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> Well apart from one notable exception who's boasted about doing such a thing in the past, but is now arguing for the use of water cannons/rubber bullets against protesters.
> 
> BTW VP you're completely wrong about Heaven's Gate, it's a great film.



Okay, I'll give it another try, but if it makes me fall asleep again, I'm gonna hunt you and butch down like dogs!


----------



## faux pas (Aug 12, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> I can't speak for other posters, but ALL of my ones there were in response to YOU starting with the insults. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.
> and stop trying to play the injured little martyr; no-one is fooled



ROFL
Comments like this are just assuring.


----------



## faux pas (Aug 12, 2011)

Maidmarian said:


> Which , tbf , you are .
> 
> Selective quoting---- we ALL already know that trick.


Yeah, they're not really insults. It's all an illusion!

I don't know why I give people the time of day responding to their 'oh, you're so abusive' claims! Clearly abusive posts from their cyber mates just don't count, even when in plain view. It's like showing a flat-earther images of the earth from outer space. 'Er, you just selected those images', lol 

Have a good one!


----------



## elbows (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't know who you think you are kidding. Its real easy to study your posting history on this thread, and you were calling someone an arrogant twat by your third post on this thread. Your next post hoped for violence to arrive on their doorstep. You then started on someone else, said they were talking a load of bollocks.

In between the abuse you did have some actual points you were trying to make, so I'll give you a little credit, but you are entirely responsible for the way things descended into abuse.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 12, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Yeah, they're not really insults. It's all an illusion!
> 
> I don't know why I give people the time of day responding to their 'oh, you're so abusive' claims! Clearly abusive posts from their cyber mates just don't count, even when in plain view. It's like showing a flat-earther images of the earth from outer space. 'Er, you just selected those images', lol
> 
> Have a good one!


oh my heart bleeds, you poor misunderstood lil victim! YOU started the abuse - and others, including myself, responded in kind. What else did you expect? If you can't take it, don't give it. the evidence is there, in your posting history
And stop playing the fucking victim, it doesn't wash.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 12, 2011)

faux pas said:


> ROFL
> Comments like this are just assuring.


I've checked your post history - the proof is there. either debate properly or just fuck off.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 12, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Yeah, they're not really insults. It's all an illusion!
> 
> I don't know why I give people the time of day responding to their 'oh, you're so abusive' claims! Clearly abusive posts from their cyber mates just don't count, even when in plain view. It's like showing a flat-earther images of the earth from outer space. 'Er, you just selected those images', lol
> 
> Have a good one!


This was your THIRD post on this thread, before ANYONE kicked off against you:


> I can spot that you're an arrogant twat.


so STFU,there's a good chap.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 12, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Yeah, they're not really insults. It's all an illusion!
> 
> I don't know why I give people the time of day responding to their 'oh, you're so abusive' claims! Clearly abusive posts from their cyber mates just don't count, even when in plain view. It's like showing a flat-earther images of the earth from outer space. 'Er, you just selected those images', lol
> 
> Have a good one!


is it not this entitlement culture which allows this mick hunt to think they are being civilized and having a robust discourse with others because they are 'entitled' to have their voice heard as much as anyone.  Where as the reality is this mick hunt is just another in a long line of selfish the world owes me respect selfish pricks...

it's the latter innit...


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 12, 2011)

IPCC say _it_ may have 'inadvertently' told/led to believe journalists that Duggan had shot at the police.



> Analysis of media coverage and queries raised on Twitter have alerted to us to the possibility that we may have inadvertently given misleading information to journalists when responding to very early media queries following the shooting of Mark Duggan by MPS officers on the evening of 4th August.
> 
> The IPCC's first statement, issued at 22:49 on 4th August, makes no reference to shots fired at police and our subsequent statements have set out the sequence of events based on the emerging evidence. However, having reviewed the information the IPCC received and gave out during the very early hours of the unfolding incident, before any documentation had been received, it seems possible that we may have verbally led journalists to believe that shots were exchanged as this was consistent with early information we received that an officer had been shot and taken to hospital.
> 
> Any reference to an exchange of shots was not correct and did not feature in any of our formal statements, although an officer was taken to hospital after the incident.



Who told them an officer had been shot and was at that point in hospital? Aren't they sort of supposed to be establishing exactly what took place, not relaying rumours - from he OB side or anyone else. Shambles. Total and utter shambles.  Total lack of legitimacy.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 12, 2011)

Neewsflash; Frogwoman and us are going down to the riotcleanup centre aka tottenham leisure centre, philip lane on Monday. ALL are welcome to join us. PM me for further info.
here's a website you may find useful: http://www.riotcleanup.co.uk/donate.php


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 12, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Neewsflash; Frogwoman and us are going down to the riotcleanup centre aka tottenham leisure centre, philip lane on Monday. ALL are welcome to join us. PM me for further info.
> here's a website you may find useful: http://www.riotcleanup.co.uk/donate.php



I took some clothes up there a few days ago and they seemed to have their act together, good stuff.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 12, 2011)

I put this in the Hackney thread, but another quick plug here won't do any harm:

http://hackneyalliance.wordpress.com/blog/

North London Unity Assembly Demonstration
GIVE OUR KIDS A FUTURE !
Saturday 13th August Assemble Gillet Square, Dalston, N16 at 1pm.
March to Tottenham Green, N15
Our communities need a united response to both the riots and the causes of despair and frustration that can result in riots.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 12, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> IPCC say _it_ may have 'inadvertently' told/led to believe journalists that Duggan had shot at the police.
> 
> Who told them an officer had been shot and was at that point in hospital? Aren't they sort of supposed to be establishing exactly what took place, not relaying rumours - from he OB side or anyone else. Shambles. Total and utter shambles. Total lack of legitimacy.



Surely there is no way they can survive 2011 in their current form?

I notice they announced the Milly Dowler/NOTW investigation just after the above went out...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2011)

faux pas said:


> Yeah, they're not really insults. It's all an illusion!



Of course they're really insults!
Mine were, anyway. I can't speak for anyone else.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 12, 2011)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I took some clothes up there a few days ago and they seemed to have their act together, good stuff.


in your opinion,what would be most useful to take? above and beyond what's on that website?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> This was your THIRD post on this thread, before ANYONE kicked off against you:
> 
> so STFU,there's a good chap.



In response to someone telling him that his post contained a _non sequitur_, and asking if he could spot it.
Hypersensitivity to criticism.

His next post then wishes unbridled violence on P's Ms' doorstep.
What's the door-step ever done to faux pas, anyway?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2011)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> is it not this entitlement culture which allows this mick hunt to think they are being civilized and having a robust discourse with others because they are 'entitled' to have their voice heard as much as anyone. Where as the reality is this mick hunt is just another in a long line of selfish the world owes me respect selfish pricks...
> 
> it's the latter innit...



You can just call him a cunt, Garf.

Or are you implying he's a Mick?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> IPCC say _it_ may have 'inadvertently' told/led to believe journalists that Duggan had shot at the police.
> 
> Who told them an officer had been shot and was at that point in hospital? Aren't they sort of supposed to be establishing exactly what took place, not relaying rumours - from he OB side or anyone else. Shambles. Total and utter shambles. Total lack of legitimacy.



Another "inadvertent" error, eh?
They really should tighten up their operating standards and procedures. Anyone might think these things happened deliberately, otherwise.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 12, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> in your opinion,what would be most useful to take? above and beyond what's on that website?



It's hard to say, I would think a whole bunch of people have taken up clothes in the last few days? If there's a number maybe give them a bell on the day?

Seemed to be a few Salvation Army types, fwiw - they were nice enough and I have a lot of time for god-botherers if they are actually doing community/solidary work personally.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 12, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> In response to someone telling him that his post contained a _non sequitur_, and asking if he could spot it.
> Hypersensitivity to criticism.
> 
> His next post then wishes unbridled violence on P's Ms' doorstep.
> What's the door-step ever done to faux pas, anyway?


the doorstep obviously insulted him once!


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 12, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You can just call him a cunt, Garf.
> 
> Or are you implying he's a Mick?


fick cunt... innit...


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 12, 2011)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It's hard to say, I would think a whole bunch of people have taken up clothes in the last few days? If there's a number maybe give them a bell on the day?
> 
> Seemed to be a few Salvation Army types, fwiw - they were nice enough and I have a lot of time for god-botherers if they are actually doing community/solidary work personally.


Ok, ta for yuour info fozzie. I feel the same way


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 22, 2011)

BBC, ITN and Sky News today handed riot footage to police 



> The BBC, ITN and Sky News have handed hundreds of hours of unbroadcast footage of the August riots to police after being served with court orders by Scotland Yard.
> 
> The broadcasters were forced to hand over raw footage of the riots after the Metropolitan police obtained a production order earlier this month under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. The Daily Telegraph is also understood to have disclosed material to the police after being served with a production order.
> 
> ...


----------



## elbows (Sep 22, 2011)

I sense the insurance premiums for satellite uplink van riot insurance leaping upwards.


----------



## Corax (Sep 22, 2011)

Quite right that they hand all footage over too. We need people like Wayne James to be severely punished or they'll just do it again.


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 4, 2011)

this ended ages ago. wtf are yous lot still talking about ffs?

i think seeing how these riots were so popular and exciting, and got everyone talking and added a bit of spice and drama to everyone's lives, that we could probably all do with another riot of some kind.

you can't say a good riot ain't better than eastenders


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 4, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> this ended ages ago. wtf are yous lot still talking about ffs?


This _thread_ ended in August, with a brief update about footage being handed over two weeks ago. And you bumped it. Slow sarcastic clap.


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## Will2403 (Oct 4, 2011)

it was in my watched threads list. oops!


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## The Black Hand (Oct 4, 2011)

Nothing wrong with adding comments not previously made on  a subject as important as this.


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## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2012)

Duggan's family have been told an inquest it not likely to happen due to sensitive evidence.

Inquest staff probably have no experience of dealing with sensitive evidence.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Duggan's family have been told an inquest it not likely to happen due to sensitive evidence.
> 
> Inquest staff probably have no experience of dealing with sensitive evidence.


 
The "sensitive evidence" probably being "we know the cops murdered him, but in line with long-standing Home Office policy, we refuse to allow any trial for murder of serving policemen, because they'd be found guilty, and we can't have that".


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## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2012)

they really do take the fucking piss


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## teqniq (Mar 26, 2012)

Unfortunately VP I think that's nail on head.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 27, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Duggan's family have been told an inquest it not likely to happen due to sensitive evidence.
> 
> Inquest staff probably have no experience of dealing with sensitive evidence.


Cover up basically.


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## stethoscope (Mar 27, 2012)

Yep - sounds like there's some details they really don't want outing.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2012)

stephj said:


> Yep - sounds like there's some details they really don't want outing.


 
It may not be "shoot to kill", but I suspect it's something along the lines of permission to use maximum necessary force to detain Duggan. From there to firing a "pre-emptive" bullet into him wouldn't be much of a stretch.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It may not be "shoot to kill", but I suspect it's something along the lines of permission to use maximum necessary force to detain Duggan. From there to firing a "pre-emptive" bullet into him wouldn't be much of a stretch.


you mean the police want to obscure the fact that they obtained permission, if you like, to shoot him before they went out to arrest him, if that is the case?


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2012)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> you mean the police want to obscure the fact that they obtained permission, if you like, to shoot him before they went out to arrest him, if that is the case?


 
Yeah, except obviously no Met honcho worth his head-tit would word it as plainly as that. "Plausible deniability" and all that jazz. I really can't, on the basis of the evidence so far produced, think of any other reason that there'd be a need, or even a desire, to deny an inquest on Duggan's death.


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## laptop (Mar 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I really can't, on the basis of the evidence so far produced, think of any other reason that there'd be a need, or even a desire, to deny an inquest on Duggan's death.


 
Er, isn't there a fairly open question over what it was they were after Mark Duggan for - and how they knew they were after him for whatever it was?


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 29, 2012)

laptop said:


> Er, isn't there a fairly open question over what it was they were after Mark Duggan for - and how they knew they were after him for whatever it was?


 
Of course. What it all suggests is that there is somewhere a confidential informer whose identity they want to conceal.


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## The Black Hand (Apr 26, 2012)

No cops interviewed so far!!  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17843690


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## Superdupastupor (Apr 27, 2012)

I was pretty suprised by the half-hour review on radio 4, didn't catch the name of it.

Saying without saying iykwim that the IPCC is set up to not enable arrests of police

and the dignified reserve of the family getting their point across despite everything- fucked over.


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## laptop (Jun 15, 2012)

Guardian said:
			
		

> A man has been formally accused of passing an illegal firearm to Mark Duggan before he was fatally shot by police.
> 
> Kevin Hutchinson-Foster, 30, appeared at Snaresbrook crown court on Friday to face a charge of "selling or transferring a prohibited firearm" to Duggan last year.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/15/man-charged-gun-mark-duggan


 
Commentary on how Mark Duggan's inquest may never happen, due to lack of power to decide whether or not to hear intercept evidence, too.


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## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2012)

Sorry thought this was about the Rednapp scandal


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## two sheds (Jun 16, 2012)

* 'Draconian' judge says riot sentences were fair *




> Justice who gave teenager eight-month jail term for stealing Lucozade bottle breaks silence


 
*Am looking forward to seeing much heavier punishments handed out to the scores of MPs who should be setting an example to us all by their honesty but instead stole thousands in fraudulent expenses claims.*

Oh wait ...


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2012)

two sheds said:


> * 'Draconian' judge says riot sentences were fair *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


mps ARE setting an example. It's just not a very good one


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## Streathamite (Jun 18, 2012)

laptop said:


> Commentary on how Mark Duggan's inquest may never happen, due to lack of power to decide whether or not to hear intercept evidence, too.


so basically everyone gets penalised EXCEPT the OB whose trigger-happiness (and subsequent smearing of Duggan) caused the whole bloody riot in the first place


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## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2013)

Bank holiday weekend - two dead after police chase in Tottenham ...


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## Blagsta (Mar 29, 2013)

Too cold.


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## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2013)

Start of April is early warning riot month, pre-riot period.


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## BigTom (Mar 29, 2013)

I agree it's probably too cold, what's it like in London? It's still not above freezing in Birmingham.

off to twitter I guess to find out what this chase was about etc. and see what the police are saying was the cause of death.

edit: not read these, some links: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/two-killed-in-tottenham-police-chase-8554357.html

http://www.lbc.co.uk/two-die-after-police-chase-crash-in-tottenham-69702


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## BigTom (Mar 29, 2013)

police chase and car crash? I think there needs to be more than that for people to be really angry enough about it, I know police spin etc but this doesn't sound too dodgy, I think most people will reckon that the people in the Audi nicked it and panicked when they saw the police and had a crash. No real reason for people to come out to a demo or something like that which would put enough people together in one place for something to start.


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## Belushi (Mar 29, 2013)

It's sunny but cold here (Tottenham) lot of people out shopping, dont think anything will come of it.


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## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2013)

People being killed joyriding is a classic riot starter - from Meadow Wells in 1991 to Hartcliffe in 1992 and then the 2005 french riots were kicked off by similar. Because a lot of people view it as indicative of how the police operate locally (little care for them, their safety etc). of course a lot of people say _good, tough luck for the thieving scrotes_ - but they are not the people who come out.


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## 8ball (Mar 29, 2013)

I tend not to side with the police on much but it can be tricky assuring the safety of people tearing around in stolen car tbf.

Was this a joyriding case - can't see that it says the car was stolen (just mentions driving while disqualified).


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## AKA pseudonym (Mar 29, 2013)

hmm.. all the relevant conditions are in place.... will be gauging peoples responses later when out n about in the manor...


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## 8ball (Mar 29, 2013)

AKA pseudonym said:


> hmm.. all the relevant conditions are in place.... will be gauging peoples responses later when out n about in the manor...


 
It's Monday that a lot of the benefit cuts kick in if I'm not mistaken*.  The pan would seem to be on the stove and the gas lit.

* - feel free to correct me - I'm often mistaken


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## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2013)

8ball said:


> I tend not to side with the police on much but it can be tricky assuring the safety of people tearing around in stolen car tbf.
> 
> Was this a joyriding case - can't see that it says the car was stolen (just mentions driving while disqualified).


That was in response to tom's post about people maybe not being bothered if they thought the dead blokes had nicked it.

There may not be the sort of estate dynamic here as in meadow wells and hartcliffe and dublin 1995 (and i don't mean the football) mind.


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## 8ball (Mar 29, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That was in response to tom's post about people maybe not being bothered if they thought the dead blokes had nicked it.


 
Ah - makes sense.


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## AKA pseudonym (Mar 29, 2013)

8ball said:


> It's Monday that a lot of the benefit cuts kick in if I'm not mistaken*. The pan would seem to be on the stove and the gas lit.
> 
> * - feel free to correct me - I'm often mistaken


yup.. April fools day ironically!


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## AKA pseudonym (Mar 29, 2013)

.


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## AKA pseudonym (Mar 29, 2013)

.


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## AKA pseudonym (Mar 29, 2013)

*multiple posts*


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## Belushi (Apr 1, 2013)

One thing that is happening here starting today is that Haringey is one of the four local authorities piloting the new benefits cap.  It's one of the most deprived areas in the country and this is going to hit a lot of people, some of whom might be completely unaware of how much they are going to lose out by.


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## 8den (Apr 1, 2013)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/31/bedroom-tax-benefit-cap-tottenham


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## MillwallShoes (Apr 1, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Millwall lost in the last minute to Birmingham City (who we loathed for good reason) and this caused a very tense atmosphere. When people were leaving the ground and were heading towards The Blue, the police put a line of police in full riot gear across the road causing a big panicky crush to develop. This crowd were still on the whole good natured and had many kids on dads shoulders, blokes with their wives and girlfriends etc. Then the police charged the crowd (who had no where to go) and batoned loads of people including kids on dads shoulders etc causing loads of nasty injuries and creating a palpable sense of rage and fury.
> 
> This mindless attack by the police on a largely peaceful crowd was the REASON that many people then took their kids and girlfriends home, came back, looted the adjacent scrap yard and pelted the police with the contents repeatedly.


there was far, far more to it than that. there were mobs forming up outside before the final whistle...


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## MillwallShoes (Apr 1, 2013)

the fact is, theare was a map of the most socially deprived areas in england and where the riots occured, and no guesses for where most of the riot spots were based...

doesn't really excuse some of the scummy behaviour witnessed in some areas that day (mugging, smashing small local shops up), but it'd take a fool to say that social deprivation was not linked into what happened.


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## 8ball (Apr 1, 2013)

MillwallShoes said:


> the fact is, theare was a map of the most socially deprived areas in england and where the riots occured, and no guesses for where most of the riot spots were based...
> 
> doesn't really excuse some of the scummy behaviour witnessed in some areas that day (mugging, smashing small local shops up), but it'd take a fool to say that social deprivation was not linked into what happened.


 
Ah, but those areas are deprived _because_ the people there are so scummy and feckless.
Cutting their benefits will wake them up a bit and make them pull their socks up!

</IDS>


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## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2013)

8ball said:


> Ah, but those areas are deprived _because_ the people there are so scummy and feckless.
> Cutting their benefits will wake them up a bit and make them pull their socks up!
> 
> </IDS>


and has it?


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## 8ball (Sep 12, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> and has it?


 
Is that addressed to IDS?


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## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2013)

8ball said:


> Is that addressed to IDS?


i want you to channel ids again and let me know


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## 8ball (Sep 12, 2013)

<eyes roll back in head>

It's all the fault of the civil service.


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## Fozzie Bear (Sep 14, 2013)

There is an official website for the Mark Duggan inquest now:

http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk/

The inquest proper begins tomorrow.


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 14, 2013)

Well, not so much 'Like', but thanks for the heads-up.


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## TopCat (Sep 16, 2013)

This inquest (long overdue) should be interesting.


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## DotCommunist (Sep 16, 2013)

it'll be a total whitewash


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## TopCat (Sep 16, 2013)

How will they proceed given the police concerned in the operation that killed MD have all refused to give statements? I am right in that? It was my recollection that they had all clammed up when the IPCC questioned them?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 16, 2013)

TopCat said:


> How will they proceed given the police concerned in the operation that killed MD have all refused to give statements? I am right in that? It was my recollection that they had all clammed up when the IPCC questioned them?


 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/02/mark-duggan-shooting-inquiry-evidence



> None of the 11 firearms officers at the scene of the Duggan shooting who were asked to attend interview have answered oral questions from the IPCC, instead supplying written answers. All initially refused to attend interview, and only the officer who shot him later attended. The officer, known as V53, declined to answer questions orally, instead submitting written answers two days later.
> V53 has said his substantive account of the shooting was compiled three days later, with he and his colleagues spending more than eight hours sitting in a room together writing their statements. He says he has "no doubt" Duggan had a gun and was preparing to open fire.


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## butchersapron (Sep 16, 2013)

I think this inquest  will probably need another thread given it's due to go on for two months at least. The court order compelling the BBC to name the eyewitness who shot footage of the shooting and the immediate aftermath has been suspended whilst the coroner tries to force another person who knows who the eyewitness is to cough up the name. Little bit of context for where this going to go.


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## butchersapron (May 3, 2014)

Mark Duggan: cop axed 'in secret over sex assaults'



> A Scotland Yard detective tasked with supporting Mark Duggan’s family in the hours after he was shot dead by police has been sacked “in secret” over allegations he sexually assaulted two women, the Standard reveals today.





> The Met was today facing accusations it is potentially putting “people at risk in their own home by not being open about this case”.
> 
> Despite senior officers finding Manz had “committed serious sexual assault on two females whilst off duty”, the Force continues to refuse to publicly name him.


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## brogdale (May 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Mark Duggan: cop axed 'in secret over sex assaults'


C4 reported this last night, along with Met claims that he'd not been named because of no conviction, and he was to keep his police pension for the same reason.


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## andysays (May 3, 2014)

Is it just me, or is the Mark Duggan connection in this a bit of an irrelevance?*

Surely the real story is "Cop axed in secret over sex assaults" and the Mark Duggan aspect doesn't really come into it, or certainly isn't the main part of the story. Or are so many cops axed over sex assaults that it's only newsworthy because of the Duggan connection?

The Standard seem to be using it as a reason to print another picture of Mark Duggan and remind us that it was his death that led to the riots (which is another way of them saying it was in some way his fault...).

*I mean for the Standard to report it this way, not for BA to put it on this thread


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## butchersapron (May 3, 2014)

It shows that from august 2011 a copper who has been found to have lied and deceived was not fit to be a copper was the main family liason with the duggan family and the duggan family complained about the way they were treated by the police - with lies and deception. Do you really need a picture painted for you andy?


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## cesare (May 3, 2014)

Dodgy copper is dodgy in additional ways shocker


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## andysays (May 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It shows that from august 2011 a copper who has been found to have lied and deceived was not fit to be a copper was the main family liason with the duggan family and the duggan family complained about the way they were treated by the police - with lies and deception. Do you really need a picture painted for you andy?



I'm not full up to speed on exactly when the various aspects of this happened. Is it the case that he was known or suspected of having committed these assaults while he was acting as family liason?

And are you suggesting (I'm sure you're not) that the Duggan family wouldn't have been treated by the police with lies and deception if only they hadn't had the misfortune to have this particular liason officer assigned to them?

As I said, presenting the story in this seems to have given the Standard an excuse to rerun their "Tottenham riots were Mark Duggan's fault" story.


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## butchersapron (May 3, 2014)

andysays said:


> I'm not full up to speed on exactly when the various aspects of this happened. Is it the case that he was known or suspected of having committed these assaults while he was acting as family liason?
> 
> And are you suggesting (I'm sure you're not) that the Duggan family wouldn't have been treated by the police with lies and deception if only they hadn't had the misfortune to have this particular liason officer assigned to them?
> 
> As I said, presenting the story in this seems to have given the Standard an excuse to rerun their "Tottenham riots were Mark Duggan's fault" story.


No, i'm suggesting that having a copper found guilty of lying and deceiving supports the Duggan families contentions that they were lied to and deceived.

wtf is wrong with you?


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## andysays (May 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> No, i'm suggesting that it supports the Duggan families contentions that they were lied to and deceived.
> 
> wtf is wrong with you?



I for one was quite happy to believe the Duggan family's contention, and I don't see that this adds anything to it.

If anything it might allow the argument to be made that one dodgy individual was responsible, rather than them being decieved as a matter of Met police policy.

I'm not criticising you for posting the story, I'm questioning why the Standard have chosen to report it in the way they have, including the headline they've used, a big picture of Mark Duggan and the reminder that he was "responsible" for the Tottenham riots.


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## butchersapron (May 3, 2014)

andysays said:


> I for one was quite happy to believe the Duggan family's contention, and I don't see that this adds anything to it.
> 
> If anything it might allow the argument to be made that one dodgy individual was responsible, rather than them being decieved as a matter of Met police policy.
> 
> I'm not criticising you for posting the story, I'm questioning why the Standard have chosen to report it in the way they have, including the headline they've used, a big picture of Mark Duggan and the reminder that he was "responsible" for the Tottenham riots.


Of course supporting evidence for their claim add somewthing to their claim. 

You might  - for some reason - want to separate general police behavior from specific incidents. I don't know why though. How much use is a general abstract criticism of the law vs its reall effects today? Get out the clouds lad.


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## Pickman's model (May 3, 2014)

andysays said:


> I for one was quite happy to believe the Duggan family's contention, and I don't see that this adds anything to it.
> 
> If anything it might allow the argument to be made that one dodgy individual was responsible, rather than them being decieved as a matter of Met police policy.
> 
> I'm not criticising you for posting the story, I'm questioning why the Standard have chosen to report it in the way they have, including the headline they've used, a big picture of Mark Duggan and the reminder that he was "responsible" for the Tottenham riots.


in the print edition of the standard they printed a photo of yer man's house.


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## andysays (May 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Of course supporting evidence for their claim add somewthing to their claim.
> 
> You might  - for some reason - want to separate general police behavior from specific incidents. I don't know why though. How much use is a general abstract criticism of the law vs its reall effects today? Get out the clouds lad.



You seem to be missing the point I'm attempting to make, perhaps because it doesn't coincide exactly with the one (the only one) you've already decided this story makes.


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## brogdale (May 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> in the print edition of the standard they printed a photo of yer man's house.


 Was it a good advert for MRM Solutions?


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## andysays (May 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> in the print edition of the standard they printed a photo of yer man's house.



All I've seen is the online story.

Did the print edition not have a picture of Duggan?


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## butchersapron (May 3, 2014)

andysays said:


> You seem to be missing the point I'm attempting to make, perhaps because it doesn't coincide exactly with the one (the only one) you've already decided this story makes.


You haven't got a point other than there is no other acceptable points to be made.


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## cesare (May 3, 2014)

Either the Met have manufactured this against him and leaked it and hung him out to dry.

Or the Met have separately found him out in this and tried to keep it quiet because otherwise people might make the obvious link.

The Met and him don't come out of it well. It stinks.


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## andysays (May 3, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You haven't got a point other than there is no other acceptable points to be made.



Just because you can't see or won't accept that I have a point doesn't mean that I haven't.


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## brogdale (May 3, 2014)

> Detective Constable Alex Manz was dismissed in the middle of a ten-week inquest into the shooting of Duggan



To be dismissed in the middle of the inquiry must mean that there is a very good chance that the Met were aware of this at the time that he gave evidence to the inquiry.


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## andysays (May 3, 2014)

cesare said:


> Either the Met have manufactured this against him and leaked it and hung him out to dry.
> 
> Or the Met have separately found him out in this and tried to keep it quiet because otherwise people might make the obvious link.
> 
> The Met and him don't come out of it well. It stinks.



I certainly agree with all of that


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## butchersapron (May 3, 2014)

andysays said:


> Just because you can't see or won't accept that I have a point doesn't mean that I haven't.


Whatever point you have - oh no reporting this in relation to duggan means some odd stuff - has been dealt with by me telling you why it relates to Duggan.


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## CNT36 (May 3, 2014)

I think another way it is relevant is in that it shows just how much shit people have to put up with and the level of risk any one family can be in from the Police.


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## Pickman's model (May 3, 2014)

andysays said:


> All I've seen is the online story.
> 
> Did the print edition not have a picture of Duggan?


might have done, i remember the picture of manz looking stupid, the picture of his house and a picture of his business card.

if i was a suspicious man i'd have thought he was being set up.


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## Pickman's model (May 3, 2014)

brogdale said:


> Was it a good advert for MRM Solutions?


only if you like your handymen to have been dismissed for attacking women.


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## andysays (May 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> might have done, i remember the picture of manz looking stupid, the picture of his house and a picture of his business card.
> 
> if i was a suspicious man i'd have thought he was being set up.



Yeah, I thought the picture of the ex-liaison officer and now handyman looked a bit WTF.


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## brogdale (May 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> only if you like your handymen to have been dismissed for attacking women.


 ..and 24 hr locksmith!


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## Pickman's model (May 3, 2014)

andysays said:


> Yeah, I thought the picture of the ex-liaison officer and now handyman looked a bit WTF.


all you'd need is perhaps an hour (and probably much less) to locate yer man's house. anyone who fancies bashing a nonce could easily get their jollies with manz after reading the standard piece.


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## brogdale (May 3, 2014)

Wasn't Manz one of the OB that actually reported that the firearm had been "thrown by the police"?


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## butchersapron (May 3, 2014)

*


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## GarveyLives (Aug 5, 2018)

_"The Tottenham Riots of 2011 paved the way for the club's new 62,000-capacity stadium and will be marked during an opening ceremony for the club's new £850million home ..."_







*Tottenham Hotspurs' new 62,000-capacity stadium*






*Mark Wayne Duggan

15 September 1981 - 4 August 2011*​
Tottenham Riots of 2011 led to their new £850m stadium  (click for more)


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