# Aug 27-Sept 2 Climate Camp returns to London



## editor (Jul 27, 2009)

Presumably recovered after the battering they took from testosterone-pumped robocops at G20, Climate Camp have announced that they'll be setting up another London camp in 27 August - 2 September.



> The plan starts now…
> 
> Check your diary. Book the week off work. Whether you come for the whole camp, or can only come for a day, make sure you don’t miss it!
> 
> ...



Info: http://climatecamp.org.uk/?q=node/468


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## durruti02 (Jul 27, 2009)

i'll be there when i can


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## editor (Jul 27, 2009)

*gets fluffy crash helmet ready


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## tufty79 (Jul 27, 2009)

i got my pop-up tent back last week 
if i can make it, i'll be putting it to good use next month.


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## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Jul 27, 2009)

Full respect to these they do stand ther grounds at put themselves on the line instaed of the geeks who shout nazi scum of our street and think they are stopping the bnp


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## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2009)

CUMBRIANDRAGON said:


> Full respect to these they do stand ther grounds at put themselves on the line instaed of the geeks who shout nazi scum of our street and think they are stopping the bnp


i think you mean uaf instead of more reputable organisations.


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## jæd (Jul 27, 2009)

> This summer there will be camps in Scotland on 3 - 10 August and in Wales on 13 - 16 August before the Camp for Climate Action returns to London to prepare for an autumn of mass action in the run up to the United Nations climate talks in Copenhagen this December.



Mummy and Daddy not going to pay for the flight to Denmark then...?


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## Bakunin (Jul 27, 2009)

jæd said:


> Mummy and Daddy not going to pay for the flight to Denmark then...?



Pillock.

Copenhagen is a spot to go to, but it's far from the only place that Climate Camp are involved, you know.


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## jæd (Jul 27, 2009)

As much as I might have been sympathetic to your cause before, its very unlikely I'd bother now...!


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 27, 2009)

jæd said:


> Mummy and Daddy not going to pay for the flight to Denmark then...?



People who care for the planet are rich hypocrites. According to something that dim fuckers make up.


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## Bakunin (Jul 27, 2009)

jæd said:


> As much as I might have been sympathetic to your cause before, its very unlikely I'd bother now...!



Why exactly?


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## Fictionist (Jul 27, 2009)

More of the same. It will not change a thing.


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## editor (Jul 27, 2009)

I'm not going to Denmark, but I'll be coming along to the London protest. I'm not rich either. Is there a point to this?


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## Prince Rhyus (Jul 27, 2009)

What's environmentalist tottie like these days?


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## e19896 (Jul 27, 2009)

> It will be the workers, not the bosses who are hit the hardest by the effects of climate change. And it is the workers who will be expected to pay for the disastrous effects through lower wages, worse conditions, higher prices, and regressive taxation. Organised labour is also in the best position to prevent a climate disaster. We have the power to take control of our workplaces, to strike, and to halt production. We have the potential to control and limit carbon emissions through collective action, and the power to force the Government to implement the green technology that we desperately need. Without the collective action of organised labour, we will be unlikely to make the changes to our economy we need, before it is too late.




Capitalism can’t save the climate – It couldn’t even eradicate poverty, provide decent education for all, or make the trains run on time.​
removed comment read the full text here


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## London_Calling (Jul 27, 2009)

e19896 said:


> The global holocaust is a continuous everyday rape of life.Everyday animals are eviscerated, women are raped, children molested and murdered, species pushed to extinction. The earth our home, our life, the mother of all life is ravaged. A stand must be taken now for the crisis is upon us, LOVE must be declared, our culture and its corrupt supporters must fall..


FFS "The global holocaust is a continuous everyday rape" - it's not even coherent past the first 8 words. It reads  like a bad 4th year school project.

How is this supposed to attract support?


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## editor (Jul 27, 2009)

e19896 said:


> The global holocaust is a continuous everyday rape of life.Everyday animals are eviscerated, women are raped, children molested and murdered, species pushed to extinction. The earth our home, our life, the mother of all life is ravaged. A stand must be taken now for the crisis is upon us, LOVE must be declared, our culture and its corrupt supporters must fall..


For fuck's sake. Stop spouting such daft shite if you want to be taken seriously.


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## In Bloom (Jul 28, 2009)

jæd said:


> Mummy and Daddy not going to pay for the flight to Denmark then...?


I'm not a fan of climate camp or the politics of a lot of the attendees, but that really is feeble on your part.  A return plane ticket from London to Copenhagen during December is £54 from easyjet.com.  A fair wedge, but not exactly the exclusive fare of the idle rich, is it?


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## In Bloom (Jul 28, 2009)

e19896 said:


> The global holocaust is a continuous everyday rape of life.Everyday animals are eviscerated, women are raped, children molested and murdered, species pushed to extinction. The earth our home, our life, the mother of all life is ravaged. A stand must be taken now for the crisis is upon us, LOVE must be declared, our culture and its corrupt supporters must fall..


Why are you posting inane, sub-Crass song lyrics on a totally unrelated thread about climate change?


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## e19896 (Jul 28, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Why are you posting inane, sub-Crass song lyrics on a totally unrelated thread about climate change?



That was cut from Make The Middle Class History Recycle Them?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2009)

e19896 said:


> That was cut from Make The Middle Class History Recycle Them?


yeh? but why?


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## e19896 (Jul 28, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh? but why?



Last year thousands of people camped at Kingsnorth coal fired power station, casting a big question mark over new coal in the UK. Then in the spring of this year thousands of people swooped on the city whilst the G20 was meeting in London: tents were pitched and the carbon trading centre in the hub of the financial district shut its doors for the day, Last Year The Drax 29 as they become known, including two Theos, a Felix, Bertie, Robin, Oliver, Jasmin and a Clemmie,  stoped a train full of coal.
This year 114 people were arrested in a 2am police raid on a community centre and school on Sneinton Dale, Nottingham, early on Easter Monday, 13th April. 

It is believed that a demonstration was planned at the E.On powerstation at Ratcliffe-on-Soar as a spokesperson for the company claimed that it was the “planned target of an organised protest”. The Ratcliffe-on-Soar coal-fired power station is the 3rd largest source of carbon dioxide emissions in the UK and has been previously targeted by the climate activists? are they right, or does coal as an energy source, via clean coal technology, have a future – as we believe?  Or more to the point, are human beings, however well intentioned, capable of controlling the Earth’s climate by the measures proposed by Theo, Bertie and Felix?

The Crisis

160,000 of the worlds most vulnerable people are dying every year because of droughts and famines brought on by human-caused global warming. Soon enough, these problems will effect all of us, with rising sea levels, water scarcity, and insecure food supplies. It will even impact those of us working in high emissions industries such as power generation, since the bosses will show as little regard for our wages and working conditions as they do for the planet when they are faced with a choice between their profits and our welfare.

For Workers Control

It will be the workers, not the bosses who are hit the hardest by the effects of climate change. And it is the workers who will be expected to pay for the disastrous effects through lower wages, worse conditions, higher prices, and regressive taxation. Organised labour is also in the best position to prevent a climate disaster. We have the power to take control of our workplaces, to strike, and to halt production. We have the potential to control and limit carbon emissions through collective action, and the power to force the Government to implement the green technology that we desperately need. Without the collective action of organised labour, we will be unlikely to make the changes to our economy we need, before it is too late.

For a Just Transition

We must move our economy away from fossil fuels – but we must do it in a fair and just way. That is why we are working for a programme of Just Transition. This means that changes in employment and activity should be fair and not cost workers or communities their health, wealth or assets. Those affected by these changes will take a leading role in creating new policies and solutions. It will mean that the cost of those changes will fall on those who can afford it, not on those who can’t.

This is the full text here climate-change-is-a-class-issue/


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## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Jul 28, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you mean uaf instead of more reputable organisations.



YES


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## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2009)

e19896 said:


> Last year thousands of people camped at Kingsnorth coal fired power station, casting a big question mark over new coal in the UK. Then in the spring of this year thousands of people swooped on the city whilst the G20 was meeting in London: tents were pitched and the carbon trading centre in the hub of the financial district shut its doors for the day, Last Year The Drax 29 as they become known, including two Theos, a Felix, Bertie, Robin, Oliver, Jasmin and a Clemmie,  stoped a train full of coal.
> This year 114 people were arrested in a 2am police raid on a community centre and school on Sneinton Dale, Nottingham, early on Easter Monday, 13th April.
> 
> It is believed that a demonstration was planned at the E.On powerstation at Ratcliffe-on-Soar as a spokesperson for the company claimed that it was the “planned target of an organised protest”. The Ratcliffe-on-Soar coal-fired power station is the 3rd largest source of carbon dioxide emissions in the UK and has been previously targeted by the climate activists? are they right, or does coal as an energy source, via clean coal technology, have a future – as we believe?  Or more to the point, are human beings, however well intentioned, capable of controlling the Earth’s climate by the measures proposed by Theo, Bertie and Felix?
> ...



do you have a view on the issue?


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## e19896 (Jul 29, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> do you have a view on the issue?



yes read my reply:


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## moon23 (Jul 29, 2009)

jæd said:


> Mummy and Daddy not going to pay for the flight to Denmark then...?



If they were going to Denmark you would be smugly pointing out the Carbon released in travel.


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## moon23 (Jul 29, 2009)

editor said:


> For fuck's sake. Stop spouting such daft shite if you want to be taken seriously.



Your such a cynic, you just need to Declare LOVE


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## e19896 (Jul 29, 2009)

moon23 said:


> Your such a cynic, you just need to Declare LOVE



Hay i changed it as it was causeing upset and right lets Declare LOVE hug the middle class not hang them by new rant


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## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2009)

e19896 said:


> yes read my reply:


it is taken from elsewhere and certainly don't appear to be your work. i'm interested in what YOU think, not in some fuckspud cut'n'paste odyssey


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## e19896 (Jul 29, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> it is taken from elsewhere and certainly don't appear to be your work. i'm interested in what YOU think, not in some fuckspud cut'n'paste odyssey



http://sheffieldanarchist.wordpress.com/about/

http://workersclimateaction.wordpress.com/

This is what i think:


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## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2009)

e19896 said:


> http://sheffieldanarchist.wordpress.com/about/
> 
> http://workersclimateaction.wordpress.com/
> 
> This is what i think:


simple question - do you, or do you not, write the workers' climate action blog? yes - or no?


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## e19896 (Jul 29, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> simple question - do you, or do you not, write the workers' climate action blog? yes - or no?



What do you think?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2009)

e19896 said:


> What do you think?


i think you don't.


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## e19896 (Jul 29, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you don't.



Where is the prove for such a crass asumption?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2009)

no link to your blog for a start.


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## e19896 (Jul 29, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> no link to your blog for a start.



http://workersclimateaction.wordpress.com/ do you think this is my blog? i agree with the content aims objectives but it is nowt ie fuck all to do with me and if if i have any others thoughts search wordpress.com for sheffield anarchist


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## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2009)

e19896 said:


> http://workersclimateaction.wordpress.com/ do you think this is my blog? i agree with the content aims objectives but it is nowt ie fuck all to do with me and if if i have any others thoughts search wordpress.com for sheffield anarchist


right. so you're being somewhat dishonest when you say above "this is what i think" when you don't in fact think of it.


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## e19896 (Jul 29, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> right. so you're being somewhat dishonest when you say above "this is what i think" when you don't in fact think of it.



Your being somewhat fucking pedantic with how i word shit..


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## kenny g (Jul 30, 2009)

> The global rape is a continuous everyday holocaust of life.
> Everyday  women are eviscerated, animals are
> raped,  species molested and children murdered
> to extinction. The earth, our mother, our life, the home
> ...



This is what I think.


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## kenny g (Jul 30, 2009)

e19896 said:


> Your being somewhat fucking pedantic with how i word shit..



should be



e19896 said:


> Your being somewhat fucking pedantic with how I shit words..


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## Pickman's model (Jul 30, 2009)

word


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## chronotub (Jul 31, 2009)

I'd love to get to this but I don't know if it's going to be possible, moving back to london in september, might be able to make the last day, shame, wanted to go to the g20 one but it was well kettled in by the time they let us out of bank

anyone have any idea what else is planned for this autumn?


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## lostexpectation (Aug 15, 2009)

see the irish climate camp is going to set up near a peat bog power plant.... they say they are going to take direct action/disruption i don't see much happening myself


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## tufty79 (Aug 15, 2009)

chronotub: not strictly climate camp, but related.  this is in october.  not london based though...


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## Fictionist (Aug 15, 2009)

Pointless. Lacking direction. And infiltrated to fuck. Why bother?


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## kenny g (Aug 15, 2009)

Fictionist said:


> Pointless. Lacking direction. And infiltrated to fuck. Why bother?



sounds like Urban75


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## winjer (Aug 19, 2009)

> Scotland Yard is overhauling its tactics for policing protests by reaching out to activists in advance of its first big test since the controversy surrounding the handling of the G20 demonstrations. Senior officers have told representatives from Climate Camp, who are planning to construct a huge campsite next week at an undisclosed location in London, that they will be met with a "community-style" policing operation that will limit the use of surveillance units and stop-and-searches wherever possible.





> In a further effort to disseminate real-time information, the Metropolitan police has activated an account on Twitter, named CO11MetPolice after its public order unit codename, which will be used to send operational information to protesters taking part in the camp. Separately, a delegation from this year's Climate Camp will be taken to the Met's public order training centre on Thursday in Gravesend, Kent, where they have been asked to brief officers being drafted in from across the country to help police the event.





> The Met has hosted four meetings in an attempt to prepare for next week's protest. "The level of engagement from police has been there," said *Francis Wright*, a Climate Camp legal adviser who will brief police officers on Thursday. "We're pleased they have been forthcoming and have been making some of the right noises, but we have to see how they deliver on the day." She said one positive factor was the change in personnel. Commander Bob Broadhurst, who led the Met's G20 operation, will not be involved in policing the camp and will instead oversee the Notting Hill carnival, which takes place at the same time. His replacement as "gold" commander, *Chief Superintendant Ian Thomas*, told camp organisers he had handpicked his team


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/aug/18/met-police-climate-camp-twitter

Those with slightly longer memories may recall that the 'silver' commander for the G20 protests was Chief Superintendent Ian Thomas, who along with Broadhurst met with Climate Camp representatives (including Frances Wright) before April 1st.

So er, all change then.


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## david dissadent (Aug 20, 2009)

winjer said:


> So er, all change then.


Notting Hill, full load of footaball fixtures, bank holiday and no call out to other forces. This climate camp seems to be aimed at training and co-ordination for other action not direct action in itself (similar to the Heathrow Climate Camp three years back). The upside for the police taking no heavy action is that their is little chance of too much disruption from it and even if streets are blocked its the probibly the second least worked week of the year and they get too look like they are less hardline infront of a very interestred press. 

The downside of cracking down is looking like cunts in front of a press where editors probibly tore strips of off various reporters for missing stories while the Guardian went scoop happy, so there is an appitite in the press to find stories and an appatite in the public for more stories of state opression, especialy against harmless fluffies. It dovetails neatly into 'survelliance Britain'. The police also risk finding large numbers of motivated people looking for something too do when climate camp is shut down and while the police have a full plate over the bank holiday weekend. Critical Mass rides on the Friday so if they do crack down they could find themselves having to police all kinds of independent stunts, mass cycle rides and general public outrage while having one of their bussiest weekends of the year.

If no one has any information force support being implemented Id say the tea leaves suggest that it will be a quite one. 

Well in my opinion anyway.


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## winjer (Aug 20, 2009)

david dissadent said:


> no call out to other forces.


Look again:



			
				TheGuardian said:
			
		

> Separately, a delegation from this year's Climate Camp will be taken to the Met's public order training centre on Thursday in Gravesend, Kent, where they have been asked to brief *officers being drafted in from across the country* to help police the event.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 20, 2009)

david dissadent said:


> Notting Hill, full load of footaball fixtures, bank holiday and no call out to other forces. This climate camp seems to be aimed at training and co-ordination for other action not direct action in itself (similar to the Heathrow Climate Camp three years back). The upside for the police taking no heavy action is that their is little chance of too much disruption from it and even if streets are blocked its the probibly the second least worked week of the year and they get too look like they are less hardline infront of a very interestred press.
> 
> The downside of cracking down is looking like cunts in front of a press where editors probibly tore strips of off various reporters for missing stories while the Guardian went scoop happy, so there is an appitite in the press to find stories and an appatite in the public for more stories of state opression, especialy against harmless fluffies. It dovetails neatly into 'survelliance Britain'. The police also risk finding large numbers of motivated people looking for something too do when climate camp is shut down and while the police have a full plate over the bank holiday weekend. Critical Mass rides on the Friday so if they do crack down they could find themselves having to police all kinds of independent stunts, mass cycle rides and general public outrage while having one of their bussiest weekends of the year.
> 
> ...


even if no forces from o/s london were involved, operation benbow would still be invoked to obtain mutual aid from city of london police and british transport police. 

perhaps you should leave reading the tea leaves to people who can make sense of them. you clearly can't.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 20, 2009)

> Chris Allinson, head of central operations at the Metropolitan Police, said around 500 officers will be needed everyday to police the camp.
> He said police will be so overstretched that 200 officers from four other forces around the country have had to be brought in and trained to help.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/6061986/Extra-police-brought-in-for-Climate-Camp.html


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## kenny g (Aug 20, 2009)

> “Every cop on an event is a cop who is not one the streets policing London,” he added./QUOTE]
> 
> Is bollocks. Most of these Officers will be on overtime.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 20, 2009)

kenny g said:


> > “Every cop on an event is a cop who is not one the streets policing London,” he added.


every cop on an event is, unless there's some strange space-time wankery going on, policing london.


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## paolo (Aug 20, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> every cop on an event is, unless there's some strange space-time wankery going on, policing london.



I'm with you there.

The notion of "waste of resources" is contradictory.

The police, rightly, do not complain about - say - investigating burglary using up valuable officers.

They should deploy resource where it's appropriate to do so.

If they feel that policing Climate Camp is a waste of resource, then the question really is: Why police it? It's a self defeating argument. It's only a waste of resource if you police something that doesn't need policing.


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## grogwilton (Aug 21, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> every cop on an event is, unless there's some strange space-time wankery going on, policing london.



If it's on a protest they are in fact doing what Peel actually created them for. Its the ones investigating murders, robberies and traffic offences that are in fact wasting police time.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> If it's on a protest they are in fact doing what Peel actually created them for. Its the ones investigating murders, robberies and traffic offences that are in fact wasting police time.








shut it


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## The39thStep (Aug 21, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> If it's on a protest they are in fact doing what Peel actually created them for. Its the ones investigating murders, robberies and traffic offences that are in fact wasting police time.



probably one of the  most inciteful and well thought out comments I have seen in a long while


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## Bakunin (Aug 21, 2009)

An overworked copper, yesterday:






'Listen, we're the Sweeney, son, and we haven't had any dinner.'


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## joe_infinity (Aug 21, 2009)

right and camping in a big group is going to make the weather get colder..... 



totally fucking moronic, get a life


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## shaman75 (Aug 21, 2009)

Open letter to the Met from Climate Camp



> August 20, 2009
> 
> Open Letter FAO Chief Superintendent Ian Thomas,
> New Scotland Yard
> ...



http://climatecamp.org.uk/blog/2009/08/20/open-letter-to-the-met


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 22, 2009)

LOL - if the Met want a "safe and healthy event" they'd better rein their lying goonsquad filth in.

The "touchy feely" aproach this year has new implications for the movement that we should not be complacent about.

Mainly, the lack of intimidating barriers to entry will increase the amount of pissheads, chancers and crim types. The police will hardly be over enthusiastic in helping us deal with this problem and I think it might take some more naive campers by suprise or irritate them. It could also become a lifestylist narcofest. Nowt wrong with some beers and spliffs but I anticipate a couple of levels above that.

Then there will be difficulty with media - aggro means coverage. Alternative solutions to capitalism is either or dull or dangerous. It may be silly season  but expect less airtime than last year.

Finally, I reckon it will be more infiltrated than ever by cops trying to muscle in on the October event.

Whatever, I'm looking forward to it like a kid looks forward to Chrimbo and have sacrificed working at one of my favourite festies.


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## paolo (Aug 22, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> LOL - if the Met want a "safe and healthy event" they'd better rein their lying goonsquad filth in.
> 
> The "touchy feely" aproach this year has new implications for the movement that we should not be complacent about.
> 
> ...



Capitalism


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## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Whatever, I'm looking forward to it like a kid looks forward to Chrimbo and have sacrificed at one of my favourite festies.


*corrected*


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 24, 2009)

Media Teams letter to the Met. tres amusent


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## two sheds (Aug 24, 2009)

Fine open letter that above, particularly liked: 

"The only secret is the location. There’s a simple reason for this: I’m afraid we just don’t trust the police. Why? Because it seems as though every time we have a protest, the police turn up and start hitting people."


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## Bakunin (Aug 24, 2009)

And the Evening Substandard weighs in with its usual smears and bullshit:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...+business+from+secret+Climate+Camp/article.do


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## david dissadent (Aug 25, 2009)

This is why I will be attending this week.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=250260

A loud ticking noise I cant make go away.


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## teamB_macro (Aug 26, 2009)

this sounds fun


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## albionism (Aug 26, 2009)

So, where is it?


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 26, 2009)

albionism said:


> So, where is it?



London.


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## editor (Aug 26, 2009)

The police have said they'll be on hand in case there's any trouble. 

Lol. They _are_ the fucking trouble.


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## TopCat (Aug 26, 2009)

editor said:


> The police have said they'll be on hand in case there's any trouble.
> 
> Lol. They _are_ the fucking trouble.



You do have to laugh when most headline grabbing footage portraying crowd violence generally consists of police battering people.


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## paolo (Aug 26, 2009)

albionism said:


> So, where is it?



Maybe Hackney Marshes... Disabled & Children meeting point is Stratford Station.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 26, 2009)

The text should have gone out by now. Could urban really be as much as 15 minutes behind the curve?


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## jæd (Aug 26, 2009)

I can understand the BP, Shell etc. But Stockwell...? Is this another protest about "stuff we don't like much"...? Perhaps they want to camp out in South London. (More fool them...)


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## paolo (Aug 26, 2009)

jæd said:


> I can understand the BP, Shell etc. But Stockwell...? Is this another protest about "stuff we don't like much"...? Perhaps they want to camp out in South London. (More fool them...)



They are meeting points, not protest points.


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## paolo (Aug 26, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> The text should have gone out by now. Could urban really be as much as 15 minutes behind the curve?



No, they're just late in announcing. Tweets still coming through.


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## winjer (Aug 26, 2009)

albionism said:


> So, where is it?


Police think East:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wnjr/3856697427/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wnjr/3856697449/

Map:
http://bit.ly/MetCamp09


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## jæd (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm thinking something more Central. Look for big open spaces in the center of town. Traf Square...? Hyde Park...?


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## albionism (Aug 26, 2009)

"Get your trousers on, you're nicked"


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## paolo (Aug 26, 2009)

jæd said:


> I'm thinking something more Central. Look for big open spaces in the center of town. Traf Square...? Hyde Park...?



If it was that, they wouldn't make the disabled meeting point Stratford.


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## paolo (Aug 26, 2009)

Now sounding like Blackheath?


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## Bandito (Aug 26, 2009)

Greenwich? nice big space


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## smokedout (Aug 26, 2009)

Blackheath confirmed and site taken according to London indymedia

which is just down the road so i might head down

packs copy of das kapital and rifle


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## winjer (Aug 26, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Now sounding like Blackheath?


Near Chris Knight's house...


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## smokedout (Aug 26, 2009)

winjer said:


> Near Chris Knight's house...



are you suggesting a lynching 

im in


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## jæd (Aug 26, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Now sounding like Blackheath?



Sounds like it on Twitter...


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## Kanda (Aug 26, 2009)

jæd said:


> Sounds like it on Twitter...



Even the Gaurdian have reported it's Blackheath


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## peacepete (Aug 26, 2009)

very close to the excel centre, sorry i mean the ExCel centre where dSeI is going to be held.


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## Kanda (Aug 26, 2009)

peacepete said:


> very close to the excel centre, sorry i mean the ExCel centre where dSeI is going to be held.



If you ignore the river, yes.


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## winjer (Aug 26, 2009)

> "Bleak Heath", scene of 1381 Peasants Revolt. Get ready for the middle class version.


@paul_lewis


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## TopCat (Aug 26, 2009)

smokedout said:


> are you suggesting a lynching
> 
> im in



You could not lynch a deal leg of lamb you pussy.


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## smokedout (Aug 26, 2009)

i could have chris knight any day


----------



## paolo (Aug 26, 2009)

First at the scene after the campers?

The police? No, an ice cream van.


----------



## jæd (Aug 26, 2009)

Heh... Apparently Rio Tinto moved six months ago.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 26, 2009)

Blackheath Tea Hut will be busy!!


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 26, 2009)

Blackheath revealed as Climate Camp location, innit.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/aug/26/climate-camp-location


----------



## Kanda (Aug 26, 2009)

claphamboy said:


> Blackheath revealed as Climate Camp location, innit.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/aug/26/climate-camp-location



It was confirmed as Blackheath 2 hours or so ago  (Also up there^^)


----------



## ajdown (Aug 26, 2009)

Hope they've cleared out of my bit of London so I don't get disrupted trying to get home.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm off for a look see.


----------



## editor (Aug 26, 2009)

I see the cops are already off on one: 





> Today police said that everyone attending the protest would be photographed for their records. In a national opinion poll commissioned by the charity Christian Aid this week, 33% of people said that recording protesters was a breach of their privacy, while 18% said they had been put off going to environmental protests by police tactics.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 26, 2009)

There's bugger all police presence at the moment, apparently they're standing back and letting them setup the camp.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2009)

& presumably photographing everyone as reported on the guardian website


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 26, 2009)

Kanda said:


> It was confirmed as Blackheath 2 hours or so ago  (Also up there^^)



Yes, but it didn't come with a link to a national newspaper site story, did it?


----------



## Kanda (Aug 26, 2009)

claphamboy said:


> Yes, but it didn't come with a link to a national newspaper site story, did it?



Sky News are still reporting it as Greenwich Park. 

It was confirmed by the organisers on twitter and by text.


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 26, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Sky News are still reporting it as Greenwich Park.



Sky first with news and ever wrong for long.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 26, 2009)

Congrats to all involved. Be there tomorrow.


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 26, 2009)

Blackheath? 

What has that to do with climate change?

Sounds like a week long excuse for a woodstock hippy festival thing?

Maybe the BBC picked her on purpose, but their spokeswoman on BBC Breakfast the other morning was some middle class woman who wasn't quite sure what they were protesting against painting meaningless slogans on her banner.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 26, 2009)

PacificOcean said:


> Blackheath?
> 
> What has that to do with climate change?
> 
> Sounds like a week long excuse for a woodstock hippy festival thing?





> Blackheath has been at the centre of rallies and revolts for hundreds of years. The sight of Climate Camp protesters converging on the wide expanse of open grassland in south east London evoked the spirit of the first popular rebellion in English history. Wat Tyler's so-called Peasants' Revolt against unpopular taxes took place on the heath more than 700 years ago and tens of thousands of protesters are believed to have flocked to London. The revolt is remembered by Wat Tyler Road on the heath and was followed in 1450 by Jack Cade's Kentish rebellion against the weak leadership of King Henry VI, unfair taxes, corruption and the damaging effect of the loss of France. Blackheath has since been the meeting point for a series of battles, revolts and demonstrations. Cornish rebels pitched camp there before being defeated in the Battle of Deptford Bridge, sometimes called the Battle of Blackheath, on June 17 1497. During the 17th century, the heath was also a notorious haunt of highwaymen who targeted stagecoaches travelling along Watling Street across the heath to north Kent and the Channel ports. It also has associations with the suffragette movement, with Emily Wilding, who died by throwing herself under the hooves of King George V's horse at the Epsom Derby in 1913, being born there



nicked from Gaurdian.


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 26, 2009)

Kanda said:


> nicked from Gaurdian.



Yes, but that was the good old days.

Now, Blackheath is a busy A-Road and slip road for the Blackwall Tunnel.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 26, 2009)

It's got a good tea hut


----------



## Thora (Aug 26, 2009)

I will be popping down there tomorrow afternoon


----------



## Diamond (Aug 26, 2009)

Plenty of nice pubs in Blackheath/Greenwich


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 26, 2009)

Kanda said:


> It's got a good tea hut



And I had my first "shag" there, but I don't see what point they are making by decamping there apart from boosting the presses view of a stereotypical idea of a load of hippies in a field eating mung beans. 

Sit outside BP or Eon if they really wanted to make a point.


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 26, 2009)

Thora said:


> I will be popping down there tomorrow afternoon



To do what?

How does that affect climate change?


----------



## Thora (Aug 26, 2009)

PacificOcean said:


> And I had my first "shag" there, but I don't see what point they are making by decamping there apart from boosting the presses view of a stereotypical idea of a load of hippies in a field eating mung beans.
> 
> Sit outside BP or Eon if they really wanted to make a point.



Not much space to camp outside BP.


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 26, 2009)

Thora said:


> Not much space to camp outside BP.



It would make more of a point than sitting in some field in South East London (with a good tea hut though).

The only people they will annoy is Greenwich Council for not getting a permit first.


----------



## Thora (Aug 26, 2009)

PacificOcean said:


> It would make more of a point than sitting in some field in South East London (with a good tea hut though).



People have staged sit-ins in trees outside BP, but the climate camp is a different activity (and getting a lot more media coverage).  There's more than one way to do things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2009)

Thora said:


> People have staged sit-ins in trees outside BP, but the climate camp is a different activity (and getting a lot more media coverage).  There's more than one way to do things.


yeh more than one way to skin a copper


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 26, 2009)

Thora said:


> People have staged sit-ins in trees outside BP, but the climate camp is a different activity (and getting a lot more media coverage).  There's more than one way to do things.



The only reason for the media coverage was they were expecting some big camp outside somewhere important.

The fact they have decided on Blackheath means that I don't think that even the Guardian will report this tomorrow.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 26, 2009)

Is there much parking provided?


----------



## Diamond (Aug 26, 2009)

There was a piece in the Guardian today about climate camp as a group saying that they need a unanimous consensus on every single decision before they resolve to follow any given proposition.

Isn't that a wee bit unrealistic?


----------



## boskysquelch (Aug 26, 2009)

Diamond said:


> Isn't that a wee bit unrealistic?



not if actions proposed are deemed supportive rather than divisive.


----------



## boskysquelch (Aug 26, 2009)

PacificOcean said:


> The only reason for the media coverage was they were expecting some big camp outside somewhere important.
> 
> The fact they have decided on Blackheath means that I don't think that even the Guardian will report this tomorrow.



Never heard of An Gof or the Cornish Rebellion then then?


----------



## moon23 (Aug 26, 2009)

Where is the best place to park my 4x4 nearby its a long journey and ill be tired so somewhere not to far from the site would be ideal.


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 26, 2009)

boskysquelch said:


> Never heard of An Gof or the Cornish Rebellion then then?



No.  

Very successful then, I take it


----------



## boskysquelch (Aug 26, 2009)

PacificOcean said:


> Very successful then, I take it



For the City... yes.


----------



## jæd (Aug 26, 2009)

Diamond said:


> There was a piece in the Guardian today about climate camp as a group saying that they need a unanimous consensus on every single decision before they resolve to follow any given proposition.
> 
> Isn't that a wee bit unrealistic?



Sounds like every other student organisation TBH.  Once they realise that committees get fuck all done we'll probably be wearing swim-suits all year round and have hippos in the Thames again...


----------



## Diamond (Aug 26, 2009)

It's the unanimous bit that is really ambitious/naive/unworkable.


----------



## jæd (Aug 26, 2009)

moon23 said:


> Where is the best place to park my 4x4 nearby its a long journey and ill be tired so somewhere not to far from the site would be ideal.



Handy Hint : If you're flying down its best to go either via Gatwick or City Airport.


----------



## Balbi (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm loving the work on this thread.

Anyone actually going though?


----------



## paolo (Aug 26, 2009)

Balbi said:


> I'm loving the work on this thread.
> 
> Anyone actually going though?



David Dissident said he's going, and I'm hoping to pile in on Saturday for a night.

Anyone else?


----------



## paolo (Aug 26, 2009)

PacificOcean said:


> It would make more of a point than sitting in some field in South East London (with a good tea hut though).
> 
> The only people they will annoy is Greenwich Council for not getting a permit first.



The aim of this camp is prep for direct action later this year, plus act as a base for other activities around London.

The camp site is not a protest in itself.


----------



## shaman75 (Aug 26, 2009)

I cycled up there this afternoon and took a few pictures.  Looks quite small in scale and a lot more tents to arrive.  Maybe 500+ people there.  Lots of lorries and vans - presumably carrying the marquees, scaffolding, etc...

Whole site surrounded by 6 foot metal fencing.

Lovely location and listening to the meeting I was kinda feeling that it would be nice to stay, be part of the community, meet some people and get stuck in.  It's hard to see how the police could have much problem with the site (there was hardly any presence there).  I imagine the coucil will be pissed, but I reckon there won't be much trace once they are gone.  They seem pretty well organised to me.

I am quite busy this weekend, but otherwise would have loved to have popped up and camped over the weekend.  Just for the experience.


----------



## moon23 (Aug 26, 2009)

jæd said:


> Handy Hint : If you're flying down its best to go either via Gatwick or City Airport.



I'd love to do that and stick it on a blog or youtube just for my own twisted sense of humour.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 26, 2009)

shaman75 said:


> Looks quite small in scale and a lot more tents to arrive.  Maybe 500+ people there.



London innit, everyones like wicked blackheath, ill head down there saturday

by which time hopefully a bunch of crusties will have turned up with a good few litres of k and a fat sound system

two days munting then a scrap with the pigs - dont get better than that


----------



## claphamboy (Aug 26, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Is there much parking provided?





jæd said:


> Handy Hint : If you're flying down its best to go either via Gatwick or City Airport.



Much lolz


----------



## shaman75 (Aug 26, 2009)

http://entoptika.co.uk/2009/08/26/climate-camp-2009-the-swoop/


----------



## Balbi (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm going tomorrow


----------



## Kanda (Aug 26, 2009)

PacificOcean said:


> The only people they will annoy is Greenwich Council for not getting a permit first.



It's about 100ft inside the Lewisham border


----------



## ajdown (Aug 26, 2009)

I suppose that they haven't yet picked up on the irony that they're protesting against global warming... and it's raining?


----------



## winjer (Aug 26, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I suppose that they haven't yet picked up on the irony that they're protesting against global warming... and it's raining?


GYAC: 'The Irony of Global Warming: More Rain, Less Water'
http://www.livescience.com/environment/051116_water_shortage.html

See also:
just-because-it-is-snowing-doesnt-mean-global-warming-is-fake


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I suppose that they haven't yet picked up on the irony that they're protesting against global warming... and it's raining?


it rains in hotter countries than this you know.


----------



## Upchuck (Aug 26, 2009)

Not good sleeping out weather


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 26, 2009)

that's why they have these tent things, with waterproof fabric over the top

they're cunning these enviro-terrorists


----------



## DeepStoat (Aug 26, 2009)

Was I the only one cringing at the hippies on Newsnight?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2009)

Upchuck said:


> Not good sleeping out weather



it's ok they're hippies.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 27, 2009)

Balbi said:


> I'm loving the work on this thread.
> 
> Anyone actually going though?



I spotted an urbanite on here http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/aug/27/climate-camp-environment-activists-police

watch the short film


----------



## teamB_macro (Aug 27, 2009)

been following their twitter.. somehow i still can't understand this twitter thing with hashtags and retweets.. ack


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 27, 2009)

Leaflet by some AFers staying at the camp, Meet the green boss, same as the old boss.  I don't agree with every word of it, but it's worth a read, IMO.


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 27, 2009)

Diamond said:


> There was a piece in the Guardian today about climate camp as a group saying that they need a unanimous consensus on every single decision before they resolve to follow any given proposition.
> 
> Isn't that a wee bit unrealistic?


Nah.  The reality of consensus decision making at most big events is a majority vote which is resolved by the people who disagree with the majority getting bored of arguing and shutting up so they can get out of the meeting and down to the pub.  At its very worst, consensus becomes a means for a controlling minority to dominate meetings by virtue of being the loudest ones there.

Consensus is stupid liberal bullshit that originated with hippy Christians and should have been left with them but it does function as a decision making process, albeit a slow and undemocratic one.


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

I wont be going I have to work, and its not a priority way to spend my time either on an entertainment or activism. Hope others have a good time and manage to achieve something meaningful though.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 27, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> that's why they have these tent things, with waterproof fabric over the top
> 
> they're cunning these enviro-terrorists


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Consensus is stupid liberal bullshit that originated with hippy Christians and should have been left with them but it does function as a decision making process, albeit a slow and undemocratic one.


My experience is that disagreeing with conventional life-style activist wisdom is not the enlightened dialectic you might hope for, does help to show how authoritarian and cultist many groups can be though


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 27, 2009)

moon23 said:


> My experience is that disagreeing with conventional life-style activist wisdom is not the enlightened dialectic you might hope for, does help to show how authoritarian and cultist many groups can be though


If you want to talk "authoritarian and cultist", I'd suggest you take a closer look at the green movement, who at times make the Scientologists look like the Universal Church.


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Consensus is stupid liberal bullshit that originated with hippy Christians and should have been left with them but it does function as a decision making process, albeit a slow and undemocratic one.


My experience is that disagreeing with conventional life-style activist wisdom is not the enlightened dialectic you might hope for, does help to show how authoritarian and cultist many groups can be though


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> If you want to talk "authoritarian and cultist", I'd suggest you take a closer look at the green movement, who at times make the Scientologists look like the Universal Church.


d'you mean the universal church of the kingdom of god?


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 27, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> d'you mean the universal church of the kingdom of god?


No, I mean this lot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

Who at times have referred to themselves as the Universal Church, IIRC.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

Not all decisions were taken at the camp by consensus. The moron who threatened my mates with a sledgehammer for having a little sack barrow sound system seemed to be acting on his own initiative. The campers who guarded two police people on site seemed to have taken that decision by themselves too. Have short are these peoples memories?


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Not all decisions were taken at the camp by consensus. The moron who threatened my mates with a sledgehammer for having a little sack barrow sound system seemed to be acting on his own initiative. The campers who guarded two police people on site seemed to have taken that decision by themselves too. Have short are these peoples memories?


What the fuck?  I sincerely hope the idiot with the sledgehammer was unceremoniously flung out at the first opportunity.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> What the fuck?  I sincerely hope the idiot with the sledgehammer was unceremoniously flung out at the first opportunity.



He was one of the organisers! He got fronted, no one was hurt, it calmed down.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> The campers who guarded two police people on site seemed to have taken that decision by themselves too. Have short are these peoples memories?



What are they supposed to do? Give them a kicking?


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> What are they supposed to do? Give them a kicking?



Refuse them entry to the site and oppose any attempts to force their way on with reasonable force.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> What are they supposed to do? Give them a kicking?



hit them with a sledgehammer


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

smokedout said:


> hit them with a sledgehammer



That would hardly be reasonable force....


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Refuse them entry to the site and oppose any attempts to force their way on with reasonable force.



So kettle them out? 

Why provoke them? It's just a couple of coppers that left site later isn't it??


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> So kettle them out?
> 
> Why provoke them?



Ian Tomlinson is dead. One woman miscarried after a beating at the G20 climate camp protest. Hundreds of Climate Campers at G20 were attacked and assaulted by police.  Stating the obvious I know but many at the camp seemed to have very short memories.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Ian Tomlinson is dead. One woman miscarried after a beating at the G20 climate camp protest. Hundreds of Climate Campers at G20 were attacked and assaulted by police.  Stating the obvious I know but many at the camp seemed to have very short memories.



Yeah, it was bang out of order, I completely agree. Kicking shit out of each other and retaliating does fuck all though does it???

Police joining in the games at Bishopsgate: 







I hope it remains calm, that the protest goes without incident, that the police have learnt etc (but should still be held account for G20)


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

Yes it's nothing new the links between romanticism, neo-paganism, environmentalism and authoritarianism, cultism and pseudo-science have been around for quite some time. It’s the dark flip side of the coin that lies in wait ready to make fools of the unsuspecting journeymen.  

I’d stop short of equating the green movement with fascism though, and I have spent a fair amount of the time arguing with some libertarians against that particular connection which is an historically naive overstatement. 

The emotiveness amongst the movement is part of the problem, especially around things like nuclear power where a largely irrational fear of radiation as some ‘unnatural force’, flies in the face the evidence. The same emotiveness is also played out in the tactics used to create political change. For instance many eco-activists are more driven by the desire to partake in forms of protest that give them emotional pleasure rather than astutely calculating where the levers of power lie in society.

 Climate Camp is an example of this, it’s not just about being green, but about a particular lifestyle you have to follow to be recognized as green. To be fair it’s in part a mythology that is perpetrated by the media with it’s attachment to cultural icons such as swampy and naive hippies they stick on Newsnight, but the wider movement allows that to happen all to easily, and then people even emulate those icons probably as they think that’s how they have to then behave to be ‘green’. How likely are people who enjoy different forms of entertainment going to listen to someone who sits around taking K and looks different from them?

This is why they get accused of being middle-class so often, because it is so fantastically unlike the experience of most working class people, not that class is the most useful mode of analysis these days where identity is so governed by other factors.  The type of lifestyle the Climate Camp promotes will never challenge the infrastructure of PR, Politicians, Media, Advertising it’s like a fish nibbling at the toes of a giant. At best it might become a fashion trend that could influence some companies’ behavior as they attempt to exploit profit from the new green consumerism. The end result for most people is a media event that portrays environmentalism as being something alien to their way of life. It’s then easily portrayed and dismissed as a fringe protest. I doubt it if Climate Camp has succeeded in changing many minds.

I’m being harsh, At least going to the Camp is better then sitting at home consuming mass-culture. Most people don’t really want to try and change minds, they are happy living out their little fantasy of radicalism and maybe simply offering up an alternative life-style even if it’s not a feasible mode of living for most people is something at least.

It has been effective in highlighting some civil liberty issues, much to the frustration of some campers who feel their message is lost in the conflict with the police, and no I don’t have any better solutions other than infiltrating the identity industry and suggesting that people constantly try to think about the extent to how their actions are likely to influence the average mail or sun reader.

On a positive note some of the campers are getting better at PR with this public voting thing on what the direct action targets will be, I wonder how much tension that creates amongst the purists who think engaging with the corporate media is a sin?


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Not all decisions were taken at the camp by consensus. The moron who threatened my mates with a sledgehammer for having a little sack barrow sound system seemed to be acting on his own initiative. The campers who guarded two police people on site seemed to have taken that decision by themselves too. Have short are these peoples memories?



Quelle surprise Climate Camp is not a Harmonious utopia?


----------



## e19896 (Aug 27, 2009)

> I really can’t begin to describle how awful Climate Camp is. I’ve tried – god knows I’ve tried. But  a total load of sanctimonious middle class bossy boots hanging out in Blackheath is beyond parody. Brew Crew where are you? I’ve since been informed from his own mouth that the TRANQUILLITY SQUAD member is in his second year at CAMBRIDGE and a memberof their rowing crew. I kid you not – the rest are even fucking worse. I haven’t had such class antagonistic goose pimples since the Henley Regatta. Fucking Jesus!



But resistence grows……….


----------



## berniedicters (Aug 27, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> it is taken from elsewhere and certainly don't appear to be your work. i'm interested in what YOU think, not in some fuckspud cut'n'paste odyssey



Good luck with that, then.

I wondered how long it'd take enumbers to ramp up into his full word-recycling rantfest. Not long, as it turned out.


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

e19896 said:


> But resistence grows……….



I see where he is coming from, but such class analysis fails because it is 

A not pragmatic within it’s own axioms of understanding because it’s divisive between groupings that need to work together 

B A limited and outdated metaphor to describe a collective identity, that takes little account into how that identity is formed.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

moon23 said:


> I see where he is coming from, but such class analysis fails because it is
> 
> A not pragmatic within it’s own axioms of understanding because it’s divisive between groupings that need to work together
> 
> B A limited and outdated metaphor to describe a collective identity, that takes little account into how that identity is formed.



Oh now I realise that a lifetime of applying a class analysis to struggle has been a waste of time. Thankyou for removing the scales from my eyes.


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Oh now I realise that a lifetime of applying a class analysis to struggle has been a waste of time. Thankyou for removing the scales from my eyes.



That’s ok mate, always happy to help 

Of course it’s not entirely uselessm, you have not been wasting all of your time.  Class anaylsis is like some painkillers in that it's best not taken on an empty stomach. Class is just a collective metaphor we use to try and describe the behavior and identity of groups of people. Of course ‘class struggle’ as a movement contains lots of useful insights as to how people interact, and is a powerful tool, it just shouldn’t limit itself to linking everything back to class as the most influential factor. 

Working/Middle Class is a factor, but there are ranges of other dialectics that we can employ to come up with a more comprehensive analysis.


----------



## Roadkill (Aug 27, 2009)

PacificOcean said:


> Yes, but that was the good old days.
> 
> Now, Blackheath is a busy A-Road and slip road for the Blackwall Tunnel.



It's also common land, which makes it harder to evict the camp than if it had set up in a park.

I live near Blackheath, so might amble up there for a look round sometime over the weekend...


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

moon23 said:


> That’s ok mate, always happy to help
> 
> Of course it’s not entirely useless but like some painkillers it’s best not taken on an empty stomach. Class is just a collective metaphor we use to try and describe the behavior and identity of groups of people. Of course ‘class struggle’ as a movement contains lots of useful insights as to how people interact, and is a powerful tool, it just shouldn’t limit itself to linking everything back to class as the most influential factor.
> 
> Working/Middle Class is a factor, but there are ranges of other dialectics that we can employ to come up with a more comprehensive analysis.



I love your use of "We". Who else are you referring to?


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> I love your use of "We". Who else are you referring to?



I was using it to refer to people generally and myself, as in we as the people can do x or y.


----------



## boskysquelch (Aug 27, 2009)

WEST SIDE!!!111


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 27, 2009)

moon23 said:


> That’s ok mate, always happy to help
> 
> Of course it’s not entirely uselessm, you have not been wasting all of your time.  Class anaylsis is like some painkillers in that it's best not taken on an empty stomach. Class is just a collective metaphor we use to try and describe the behavior and identity of groups of people. Of course ‘class struggle’ as a movement contains lots of useful insights as to how people interact, and is a powerful tool, it just shouldn’t limit itself to linking everything back to class as the most influential factor.
> 
> Working/Middle Class is a factor, but there are ranges of other dialectics that we can employ to come up with a more comprehensive analysis.


Class as a tool of radical social analysis has roughly fuck all to do with "the behavior and identity of groups of people" in anything other than the broadest sense.  Try not to attack ideas that you don't understand, eh?


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Class as a tool of radical social analysis has roughly fuck all to do with "the behavior and identity of groups of people" in anything other than the broadest sense.  Try not to attack ideas that you don't understand, eh?



Are you going to provide an explanation or do you think that if you use aggressive language that counts as an argument? 

Your response is all too familiar to anyone who questions dialectics upon which certain movements much to their failure have become dogmatically wedded to. Class is not the only the only historically important contradiction, even Marx could recognize that. Dialectics are fluid and historically placed in social context, a fixed notion of class analysis traps you in the past and betrays the modes of analysis available to base radical alternatives.

The most radical analysis taps into the current collective identity that people associate themselves with.


----------



## berniedicters (Aug 27, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Media Teams letter to the Met. tres amusent


OK, I know two million people will almost certainly have said this by this time, but...brilliant  I suspect this is how Gandhi would have managed, using 21st century technology...


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

agnesdavies said:


> OK, I know two million people will almost certainly have said this by this time, but...brilliant  I suspect this is how Gandhi would have managed, using 21st century technology...



It's brilliant in exposing the myth of enforcing health and safety that the police use. It plays into the dialectic contradiction that is so plainly obvious once you point out they killed someone through their actions.


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 27, 2009)

moon23 said:


> Are you going to provide an explanation or do you think that if you use aggressive language that counts as an argument?
> 
> Your response is all too familiar to anyone who questions dialectics upon which certain movements much to their failure have become dogmatically wedded to. Class is not the only the only historically important contradiction, even Marx could recognize that. Dialectics are fluid and historically placed in social context, a fixed notion of class analysis traps you in the past and betrays the modes of analysis available to base radical alternatives.
> 
> The most radical analysis taps into the current collective identity that people associate themselves with.


A Marxist class analysis would be one which focuses on the relationship between the bourgeoisie, sometimes called the ruling or boss class, (the class that owns and manages capital) and the proletariat, sometimes called the working class, (the class which is forced to sell its labour by social conditions).  From this point of view, class is best viewed a social relationship, not a set of categories that you put people into or something that is determined by "identity".

Basically, the idea of class you're attacking is one based on sociology, not Marx's dialectics, which is fine, but pick one and stick with it, don't switch between the two at random as if they're identical.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

Bongo's? 

Why? Why? Why?!!


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> A Marxist class analysis would be one which focuses on the relationship between the bourgeoisie, sometimes called the ruling or boss class, (the class that owns and manages capital) and the proletariat, sometimes called the working class, (the class which is forced to sell its labour by social conditions).  From this point of view, class is best viewed a social relationship, not a set of categories that you put people into or something that is determined by "identity".
> 
> Basically, the idea of class you're attacking is one based on sociology, not Marx's dialectics, which is fine, but pick one and stick with it, don't switch between the two at random as if they're identical.




It's useful to highlight as you do that Marx's own definition of the class dialectic is very different from the sociological definition  often used by those who 'bash the middle-class'  or complain about the climate camp being middle-class.

My point really is that there are a whole range of different dialectic contradictions that can be employed, and even just sticking with Marx's definitions is not sufficient alone. It's very useful but can be strengthened by looking at it from other points of view.

That’s why I think class can be both a social relation and also something that relates to behavior and identity. It would be illogical for me to think that it's best to use different dialectics then insist on one definition, which must appear confusing, so perhaps I need to explain myself in more detail.

 We can then compare say who Marx’s dialectic of class interacts with a rang of semiotic, sociocultural and psychological factors that affect how we form  self identities and define collective identities. These in turn influence behaviors such as buying and controlling capital. That’s why I’m mixing things up; they are not distinct but fluid and constantly morphing, changing. 

Bringing it back to Climate Camp, there are a whole range of things going on and any one dialectic is unlikely to fully explain it.


----------



## YouSir (Aug 27, 2009)

I was thinking of heading up today, any point? Take it not much'll be happening later and, to be honest, unless I can find a reason or arrange a drink with some friends I'm not sure I can be arsed.


----------



## e19896 (Aug 27, 2009)

*Are the sanctimonious middle class the ignominy of our class?*

It very much time to make the ignominy of our class history, 75 people gathered outside Rio Tinto building that is one of the world’s biggest mining and exploration companies, and a nexus of the global coal industry.

Between the 3rd and the 10th of August the first Camp for Climate Action was successfully held in Scotland. Climate Camp Scotland occupied Mainshill wood, the site of a proposed new open cast coal mine. The location was chosen in solidarity with local residents who are outraged at the proposed development, and to support a tree-sit already set up in the area to resist the mine.

Why were they there?

Scottish Coal, the UK’s largest open cast producer, has been given permission to mine 1.7 million tonnes of coal from Mainshill Wood in South Lanarkshire by South Lanarkshire Council, a decision that enraged local residents who for years have campaigned against the mine. There are four other mines in the area, making it one of the most heavily mined areas in Europe, as well as an area with the highest cancer rates in Scotland.

We neither have time for opencast coal mines we took action some years back and trashed a sight at Dolehill in Derbyshire, there are no leaders for the free now we should have all fucked off when the damage had been done, instead we decided to go and do a occupation, we was all charged with the theft of a yoghurt and weeks of court cases ensued the ignominy of our class had no solidarity with the working class involved, you never learn a lesson but the hard way, so for some time we continued to live under the delusion these fair weather friends was on our side.

It soon become clear they was nothing but, so why when the G8 Circus come to Sheffield why did we work with the soap dodgers again?, nothing but to the detriment of our self and our own health, some years on we still have a deep psychosis along with other issues, this said we have along the way learned som hard lessons along with making some real friends, so when Felix, Bertie, Robin, Oliver, Jasmin and a Clemmie state they understand your class struggle, lets remind them of people like Thomas Rainsborough

I shall blow up your buildings a little more and be less open with you than I was before. I wish we all truly wanted to change this cesspool we live in. And, sir, to say because a man pleads that every man hath a voice by right of nature, that therefore it destroys by the same argument all property That there’s a property, the Law of God says it; else why hath God made that law, Thou shalt not steal? I am a poor man, therefore I must be oppressed: if I have no interest in the kingdom, I must suffer by all their laws be they right or wrong. Nay thus: a gentleman lives in a country and hath three or four lordships, as some men have (God knows how they got them); and when a Parliament is called he must be a Parliament-man; and it may be he sees some poor men, they live near this man, he can crush them– I have known an invasion to make sure he hath turned the poor men out of doors; and I would fain know whether the potency of rich men do not this, and so keep them under the greatest and your sister too tyranny that was ever thought of in the world. And therefore I think that to that it is fully answered: God hath set down that thing as to propriety with this law of his, Thou shalt not steal. And for my part I am against any such thought, and, as for yourselves, I wish you would not make the world believe that we are NOT for anarchy BECAUSE WE ARE. NOW LET THE WORLD REST IN PEACE AND ANARCHY!


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## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

Probably depends on what you were planning to do there and what value you derive from it. I should guess there is lot’s to be done in terms of setting up, but not much in terms of participation of planned events but then I don’t know much about what is happening 

If you are not sure what the point is and don’t think you will have a good time (which should not be underrated) then personally I’d do something else.


----------



## YouSir (Aug 27, 2009)

moon23 said:


> Probably depends on what you were planning to do there and what value you derive from it. I should guess there is lot’s to be done in terms of setting up, but not much in terms of participation of planned events but then I don’t know much about what is happening 
> 
> If you are not sure what the point is and don’t think you will have a good time (which should not be underrated) then personally I’d do something else.



True enough, may still wonder over, not all that far from me anyway; did figure that there wouldn't be much happening to participate in though. Plus the entertainment value of Hippies playing bongos isn't quite tempting enough to merit the trip without the promise of a drink. Ho hum.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

There are some bands playing Friday night apparently.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> The campers who guarded two police people on site seemed to have taken that decision by themselves too.


would those cops have been the ones in charge of policing the event?


----------



## boskysquelch (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> There are some bands playing Friday night apparently.



Links or stfu.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

boskysquelch said:


> Links or stfu.



Twitter feed last night, can't be arsed searching back.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2009)

e19896 said:


> It very much time to make the ignominy of our class history, 75 people gathered outside Rio Tinto building that is one of the world’s biggest mining and exploration companies, and a nexus of the global coal industry.
> 
> Between the 3rd and the 10th of August the first Camp for Climate Action was successfully held in Scotland. Climate Camp Scotland occupied Mainshill wood, the site of a proposed new open cast coal mine. The location was chosen in solidarity with local residents who are outraged at the proposed development, and to support a tree-sit already set up in the area to resist the mine.
> 
> ...


have you a link to the site where that text originally appeared?


----------



## jæd (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> There are some bands playing Friday night apparently.



Cool. Will the BBC be there to televise this, too...? 

I can see this becoming the Annual Blackheath Climate Camp. And it will stay as independent and as non-commercialised as Glastonbury, the iTunes Music Festival, etc


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> would those cops have been the ones in charge of policing the event?



This was the Silver Commander and one other. This Silver was the same fucker who lead the battering of all the people in the tunnel on the Free Gaza demo.


----------



## boskysquelch (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Twitter feed last night, can't be arsed searching back.



Tweeter fatigue..awwwwr...(((((#coke_on_sod))))) y'all being sooooo busy an 'all.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

boskysquelch said:


> Tweeter fatigue..awwwwr...(((((#coke_on_sod))))) y'all being sooooo busy an 'all.



You what??? 

I'm not busy at all, just can't be arsed running around finding shit out for you


----------



## boskysquelch (Aug 27, 2009)

jæd said:


> Cool. Will the BBC be there to televise this, too...?
> 
> I can see this becoming the Annual Blackheath Climate Camp. And it will stay as independent and as non-commercialised as Glastonbury, the iTunes Music Festival, etc



It's already Internationalized so peeps don't have to caravan themselves to the same ol' same ol' if they can't... but hey...some have to stay at _work_ innit. Maybe they will make a payfor in the future to cater for pre-booked leave... then everyone can be a happy bunny....


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

There will be a big party on site on Friday evening.


----------



## boskysquelch (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> You what???
> 
> I'm not busy at all, just can't be arsed running around finding shit out for you



bet you go tho.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

boskysquelch said:


> bet you go tho.



I bet I don't.

I work for a Hedge Fund and drive a 4x4....  Would be slightly wrong of me to go...


----------



## El Jefe (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> There will be a big party on site on Friday evening.



yeh, and i think that's where the bands come up - i _think _i know who's sorting this, i'll see what can / can't be said


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> I bet I don't.
> 
> I work for a Hedge Fund and drive a 4x4....  Would be slightly wrong of me to go...


i see you're using the word 'work' when you should say you're a gambler with other people's money.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> i see you're using the word 'work' when you should say you're a gambler with other people's money.



No, I work in IT, I have nothing to do with the gambling side.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)




----------



## boskysquelch (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> No, I work in IT, I have nothing to do with the gambling side.



coughzyclonBcough


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

YouSir said:


> True enough, may still wonder over, not all that far from me anyway; did figure that there wouldn't be much happening to participate in though. Plus the entertainment value of Hippies playing bongos isn't quite tempting enough to merit the trip without the promise of a drink. Ho hum.



If I was local i'd wander over just becuase it would be something different to do.


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## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

boskysquelch said:


> coughzyclonBcough



eh? 

what language are you speaking here??? 

Bollocks?


----------



## grubby local (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> There will be a big party on site on Friday evening.



excellent. haven't been down yet but will be there tomorrow. showing a doc about how they do things in Brazil (occupying land en masse, setting up camps) in the afternoon in the solarpowered tent if anyone is interested.

gx


----------



## Onket (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> I bet I don't.



I'll go with you.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

Onket said:


> I'll go with you.



I'm off to SW4 and Get Loaded


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> There will be a big party on site on Friday evening.



How does that work with music? Don't the police employ the CJA?


----------



## paolo (Aug 27, 2009)

Guardian blog is reporting that the anarchist group left the camp last night, after being "made to feel most unwelcome" by the rest of the camp.


----------



## Onket (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> I'm off to SW4 and Get Loaded



Oh dear. Unlucky.


----------



## e19896 (Aug 27, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> have you a link to the site where that text originally appeared?




http://projectsheffield.wordpress.c...nious-middle-class-the-ignominy-of-our-class/


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

moon23 said:


> How does that work with music? Don't the police employ the CJA?



They may try if the sound system(s) are big enough.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Guardian blog is reporting that the anarchist group left the camp last night, after being "made to feel most unwelcome" by the rest of the camp.



We left when it was well late after getting through all our bevy. There were still comrades there with the Red and Blacks who had more bevy to sustain them.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

E numbers?: Your cut and pastes are making me weary. Why not get the author of the above to join urban75 and engage and debate here? Then you could rant away in your usual style and we could all put you on ignore. :>


----------



## boskysquelch (Aug 27, 2009)

e19896 said:


> the sanctimonious of the fucking self righteous middle class, dose fuck all for me and the rest of my class the working class, anyone round London like to donate some soap to these dodgers feel free, I shall watch not with praise, but with interest and hope that one day there history just the same as capitalism.



Give a Link...give people a choice to read your work not a carpet bomb to consider.

You have a right to be supportive...You have no Rights to be divisive.

IMO.


----------



## boskysquelch (Aug 27, 2009)

*on a side issue...*

... I guess some people may be interested in what's going "on"

http://climatecamp.org.uk/actions/london-2009/programme


----------



## winjer (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Why not get the author of the above to join urban75 and engage and debate here?


But he _is _'Project Sheffield'/'Under Class Rising', isn't he?


----------



## Boycey (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> They may try if the sound system(s) are big enough.



friday's looking like the day to be there then  as long as the tinny ghettoblasters are loud enough to drown out the persistant koombaya-ing of the CCers it should be sweet.



Kanda said:


> eh?
> 
> what language are you speaking here???
> 
> Bollocks?



he's speaking in godwin's law


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

winjer said:


> But he _is _'Project Sheffield'/'Under Class Rising', isn't he?



No he is not. It does not take a double take to see that his posts are made up of his own, which are illiterate shite and his mates which are well written shite.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

boskysquelch said:


> ... I guess some people may be interested in what's going "on"
> 
> http://climatecamp.org.uk/actions/london-2009/programme



An interesting mix of practical activist skill teaching and utter hippie foolery.


----------



## shaman75 (Aug 27, 2009)

light-touch community policing in action 

http://london.indymedia.org/videos/2001


----------



## shaman75 (Aug 27, 2009)

...and twitter is informing me that the police have had a strop about being asked to remain outside the camp (something they seem quite fixated on) and have either threatened to or have actually cut off communications with the camp.  Oooooh.  That'll learn them.

So, all that stuff post-G20, about improving communications was bullshit.

I reckon they are itching to get in there for a fight after getting battered by West Ham.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2009)

Friday night should be interesting with the Blackheath fair on as well.


----------



## xes (Aug 27, 2009)

Can someone direct me to the twitter link please? 

Good luck for this one people, i hope that you can stay your alloted time and have a nice peaceful demo


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 27, 2009)

xes said:


> Good luck for this one people, i hope that you can stay your alloted time and have a nice peaceful demo



Demo about what?

Seems like an excuse for an impromptu Woodstock.

Who cares?  Who are they converting to their cause?


----------



## xes (Aug 27, 2009)

PacificOcean said:


> Demo about what?
> 
> Seems like an excuse for an impromptu Woodstock.
> 
> Who cares?  Who are they converting to their cause?



I care, I hope that they can demonstrate what ever they're demonstrating, and do it peacefully, as should be the law. What with this country being democratic (apparently)  And climate is something to protest about, to get big business to see that there are changes which need to be made. 

And so what if they want to liven things up a bit, it's called FUN. You know, some people have a different idea of what that is. It sounds like fun to me anyway. And if you can get a message across, and have fun at the same time, then it's win win win.

Or would you rather live ina world where nobody gave a fuck, and just let any big corporation depleat all the natural rescources until they're all gone.?


----------



## jæd (Aug 27, 2009)

shaman75 said:


> ...and twitter is informing me that the police have had a strop about being asked to remain outside the camp (something they seem quite fixated on) and have either threatened to or have actually cut off communications with the camp.  Oooooh.  That'll learn them.
> 
> So, all that stuff post-G20, about improving communications was bullshit.
> 
> I reckon they are itching to get in there for a fight after getting battered by West Ham.



I love the twitter feed "We met with pendry outside camp"....  And "We aren't letting the police insure" . I thought A-level results were going up...? Not going to a cushy job with spelling like that...! (Though I expect Daddy has connections...)


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 27, 2009)

xes said:


> Or would you rather live ina world where nobody gave a fuck, and just let any big corporation depleat all the natural rescources until they're all gone.?



Erm, yes.

I don't see how having a week long party in a field changes anything.


----------



## winjer (Aug 27, 2009)

xes said:


> Can someone direct me to the twitter link please?


http://twitter.com/#search?q=#climatecamp


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

Considering you can't have any kind of organised event on any of the commons without police presence... this should go well. Why not just let a couple of beat bobbys womble round???


----------



## winjer (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Why not just let a couple of beat bobbys womble round???


They tried that at Heathrow. Except the 'beat bobbys' chosen just happened to be some of the less well-known FIT...


----------



## e19896 (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> E numbers?: Your cut and pastes are making me weary. Why not get the author of the above to join urban75 and engage and debate here? Then you could rant away in your usual style and we could all put you on ignore. :>



http://projectsheffield.wordpress.c...nious-middle-class-the-ignominy-of-our-class/ is my blog i wrote the rant all cut n paste are given links ie where i got the info, and then likewise i could of course rant and you put me on ignore, but this time i think you find i wrote much of this and far to long to post here..


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

winjer said:


> They tried that at Heathrow. Except the 'beat bobbys' turned out to be some of the less well-known FIT...



They don't need FIT with the cherrypicker and cctv. Just dunno why the organisers don't compromise and stipulate no cameras etc. They'll only end up looking obstructive. I doubt any beat bobbies would volunteer though


----------



## e19896 (Aug 27, 2009)

TopCat said:


> No he is not. It does not take a double take to see that his posts are made up of his own, which are illiterate shite and his mates which are well written shite.



dear me, people ask to stop the cut paste, i write something and now it is  illiterate? instead of attacking your own class Top Cat why not look towords those who are the real issue of our class, your in London go along take them some fucking soap at the same time, as i understand they have put a fence round there camp, there is only one way in and out be constructive not destructive of your own class..


----------



## winjer (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> They don't need FIT with the cherrypicker and cctv.


They had them at Heathrow too. The FIT aren't just there to watch, they're there to be _seen to be watching_.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

winjer said:


> They had them at Heathrow too. The FIT aren't just there to watch, they're there to be _seen to be watching_.



So, stopping ANY coppers coming in is really going to work? 

ANY organised event generally has to allow some sort of police presence, it's not private ground or anything. By denying any kind of presence aren't they shooting themselves in the foot? 

This is not my stance that they 'should' be allowed on site regardless, I just think it may be wise and be good PR, why are they different to any other organised event on any other London space?  Or are they worried that a couple of beat bobbies may get beaten to fuck if given access?


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

PacificOcean said:


> Demo about what?
> 
> Seems like an excuse for an impromptu Woodstock.
> 
> Who cares?  Who are they converting to their cause?



Not really converting anyone as my earlier moan points out it's about lifestyle activism rather than any meaningful attempt to get near the levers of power. It's the average Sun or Mail reader that needs their minds changing and Climate Camp probably only reinforces those people's stereotypes.


----------



## berniedicters (Aug 27, 2009)

boskysquelch said:


> Give a Link...give people a choice to read your work not a carpet bomb to consider.
> 
> You have a right to be supportive...You have no Rights to be divisive.
> 
> IMO.


Except it's not his work. Not nearly monitor-spatteringly excitable or inarticulate enough...


----------



## jæd (Aug 27, 2009)

Interesting take on the camp. Its common land, but the Climate Camp has its own rules : http://jwarren.co.uk/blog/climate-camp-code-of-conduct/



> In an interesting twist, this year’s camp is on common land, unlike previous years where they have squatted someone else’s land for a week. So the argument is no longer that they have no right to impose rules on land that doesn’t belong to them, but that they have no right to impose rules on land that belongs to everybody.



I think the "no cops" will be the under-doing of the Camp. Either through the cops coming through regardless, or something nasty happening that singing Cum-By-Yar won't heal...


----------



## GoneCoastal (Aug 27, 2009)

jæd said:


> Interesting take on the camp. Its common land, but the Climate Camp has its own rules : http://jwarren.co.uk/blog/climate-camp-code-of-conduct/
> 
> 
> 
> I think the "no cops" will be the under-doing of the Camp. Either through the cops coming through regardless, or something nasty happening that singing Cum-By-Yar won't heal...


That's also annoyed photgraphers like Marc Vallee who is usually very pro protest etc http://www.marcvallee.co.uk/blog/2009/08/climate-camp-2009-free-to-report/

--Quoted from Marc Vallee's blog 
"-- you will only be welcome between the hours 10am to 6pm. But don’t worry – you do get your very own climate camper – minder – to take care of you when you visit the camp. Who will make sure you do not photograph or film anything or anyone you should not – so no Cartier-Bresson decisive moments then."

< bit snipped >

"The camp is trying to write its own narrative – pretty much in the same way that New Scotland Yard is spinning its media strategy as fact. As Vidal wrote in 2007, “It’s an easy step from trying to manipulate the press to manipulate information.”

The camps media access policy was “…agreed upon by consensus during the national climate camp planning meetings and the media team is given the mandate to work within those restrictions” – “restrictions” – how true."
--End quote

Unfortunately this gives the impression, however misleading it may be, that "there's something to hide" & that in itself will spin badly if, for example, the DM were to pick that as an article


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 27, 2009)

Go on Old Bill give them what they want.

No different from the football hooligans of the 70/80s, now it's about "climate change" rather than Millwall.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 27, 2009)

GoneCoastal said:


> That's also annoyed the press http://jwarren.co.uk/blog/climate-camp-code-of-conduct/



You've just linked the link you quoted


----------



## GoneCoastal (Aug 27, 2009)

Kanda said:


> You've just linked the link you quoted


Edited! Oops! Sorry !


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 27, 2009)

PacificOcean said:


> Go on Old Bill give them what they want.
> 
> No different from the football hooligans of the 70/80s, now it's about "climate change" rather than Millwall.



So you're actually comparing climate campers with football hooligans? Tell me this is just a little joke, please.

How many climate campers and climate activists have you actually met, if you don't mind my asking.


----------



## Endeavour (Aug 27, 2009)

PacificOcean said:


> Erm, yes.
> 
> I don't see how having a week long party in a field changes anything.



Have you actually _read_ the agenda?

http://climatecamp.org.uk/actions/london-2009/programme


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

Restricting press access to common land WTF! They have create a mini North Korea where free media needs to have a minder. PR fail


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

So let me get this straight they have enclosed a common with a fence. The Irony is too rich


----------



## Endeavour (Aug 27, 2009)

moon23 said:


> So let me get this straight they have enclosed a common with a fence. The Irony is too rich


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 27, 2009)

moon23 said:


> Restricting press access to common land WTF! They have create a mini North Korea where free media needs to have a minder. PR fail



Whinge, whinge bloody whinge....all commoners are still free to enter and leave and roam on *this* common land and they have not enclosed the whole common either....they are trouble shooting as well you know...


Is that all you have.....seriously? If so, go down there and have a look before whinging like a whinge-bag. At least moan from a position of experience and knowledge, no? 


You are Nick Ferrari and I don't even want to claim my five pounds, keep it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2009)

moon23 said:


> So let me get this straight they have enclosed a common with a fence. The Irony is too rich


they are from the enclosing class therefore enclosing is what they do.


----------



## moon23 (Aug 27, 2009)

No you would not want me there I would only be cynical and grumpy  plus travelling the length of the country to visit the camp when I could be doing some valuable work seems silly to me. Thanks for the invite though i hope it does make a difference even though im very skeptic


----------



## sonny61 (Aug 27, 2009)

Any chance the protesters could check out the common for the viability of a City of London type airport?
The City of London airport is great for short internal flights , but expensive.

If there were a few more such type airports in London, the price for internal flights to London could become cheaper, making quick cheap internal flights more open to the masses.
Better than landing at Heathrow and piss about with the tube or a taxi into town.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Any chance the protesters could check out the common for the viability of a City of London type airport?
> The City of London airport is great for short internal flights , but expensive.
> 
> If there were a few more such type airports in London, the price for internal flights to London could become cheaper, making quick cheap internal flights more open to the masses.
> Better than landing at Heathrow and piss about with the tube or a taxi into town.


according to monobot the people who make most use of budget airlines are the same people who travelled in the days before ryanair, which is to say mostly not the working class.


----------



## paolo (Aug 27, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> according to monobot the people who make most use of budget airlines are the same people who travelled in the days before ryanair, which is to say mostly not the working class.



And there's CAA stats to back that up apparently, showing 80% of travellers are in the ABC1 group. The idea that budget flights are airborne council estates is aviation lobbyist fiction.


----------



## paolo (Aug 27, 2009)

Meanwhile, the Economist has a good take on the Climate Camp, I think. They always have a little bit more wisdom than the regular press, and with that are always much less reactionary...

Intro: "The Climate Camp demonstration has become as much about the right to protest as it is about the environment."

Conclusion: "A report by HM Inspectorate of Constabulary, commissioned after the G20 episode, warned: “Protesters have a heightened sense of grievance…The art of successfully policing public protest has always been to minimise this transfer of grievance [towards the police].” The Met’s latest moves are encouraging, but it may be some time before those grievances are transferred back."

Economist: Policing Protest - An Ever Bigger Tent


----------



## sonny61 (Aug 27, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> according to monobot the people who make most use of budget airlines are the same people who travelled in the days before ryanair, which is to say mostly not the working class.



I use internal flights a fair bit, if you shop around you can get some good prices. BA is very expensive.
Many flights I have been on seem working class. Been on stag nights on flights, to London, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow, very working class passengers.
They can work out a lot cheaper than trains, quicker, and you can have a few drinks at the airport. I really enjoy internal flights, twenty years ago they would have been out of my price range. Let's have more of them, cheap and regular.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> I use internal flights a fair bit, if you shop around you can get some good prices. BA is very expensive.
> Many flights I have been on seem working class. Been on stag nights on flights, to London, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow, very working class passengers.
> They can work out a lot cheaper than trains, quicker, and you can have a few drinks at the airport. I really enjoy internal flights, twenty years ago they would have been out of my price range. Let's have more of them, cheap and regular.


----------



## paolo (Aug 27, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


>



Stop feeding, even if it was only a crumb.


----------



## paolo (Aug 27, 2009)

moon23 said:


> So let me get this straight they have enclosed a common with a fence. The Irony is too rich



Ironic perhaps, but there's a more boring practicality. The location they've chosen is exposed, and tents don't offer the security that - sadly - is needed when dossing down for the night in a city.

There's probably quite a few people who might like the idea of getting pissed up and then going for a bit a rumble and rob amongst "the hippies". It only takes a few visits to London free parties to see how things can turn out (not very nicely, being the answer).


----------



## where to (Aug 28, 2009)

can anyone summarise to me what they are doing in a wee paragraph

not from London so looked at Blackheath on a map its just a park in suburban South London


----------



## moon23 (Aug 28, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Ironic perhaps, but there's a more boring practicality. The location they've chosen is exposed, and tents don't offer the security that - sadly - is needed when dossing down for the night in a city.
> 
> There's probably quite a few people who might like the idea of getting pissed up and then going for a bit a rumble and rob amongst "the hippies". It only takes a few visits to London free parties to see how things can turn out (not very nicely, being the answer).


 Yes realized it was just an amusing by-product sounds like they need some police there.


----------



## jæd (Aug 28, 2009)

moon23 said:


> So let me get this straight they have enclosed a common with a fence. The Irony is too rich



Hopefully they'll remember what happened to Wat Tyler after he left Blackheath and toddled off up to Smithfields. 

Once you've got rid of the "Origami for Activists" bits the Climate Camp programme seems just Yet Another Climate Conference. If they rented some rooms in a hotel and gave out some naff tea and biscuits they'd probably convert more people. Sitting in a field for a week will just preach to the converted and supply Journos with news-stories.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 28, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> I use internal flights a fair bit, if you shop around you can get some good prices. BA is very expensive.
> Many flights I have been on seem working class. Been on stag nights on flights, to London, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow, very working class passengers.
> They can work out a lot cheaper than trains, quicker, and you can have a few drinks at the airport. I really enjoy internal flights, twenty years ago they would have been out of my price range. Let's have more of them, cheap and regular.



I would prefer better trains but until we have them then I will fly where I want.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 28, 2009)

I was going to go to the party tonight at Climate Camp but given it will be pissing down I think I may pass...


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## TopCat (Aug 28, 2009)

jæd said:


> Hopefully they'll remember what happened to Wat Tyler after he left Blackheath and toddled off up to Smithfields.
> 
> Once you've got rid of the "Origami for Activists" bits the Climate Camp programme seems just Yet Another Climate Conference. If they rented some rooms in a hotel and gave out some naff tea and biscuits they'd probably convert more people. Sitting in a field for a week will just preach to the converted and supply Journos with news-stories.



I am not one of the converted and went along and was open to ideas? My GF's son went along and he knows little about it and found much of interest. My GF came and she found it intersting. So all this preaching to the converted is a bit of bollocks, an easy excuse to ignore those clamouring for change. And a stupid diversion to suggest we need to pitch all ideas of change at Daily Mail readers.


----------



## moon23 (Aug 28, 2009)

TopCat said:


> I am not one of the converted and went along and was open to ideas? My GF's son went along and he knows little about it and found much of interest. My GF came and she found it intersting. So all this preaching to the converted is a bit of bollocks, an easy excuse to ignore those clamouring for change. And a stupid diversion to suggest we need to pitch all ideas of change at Daily Mail readers.



Topcat the very nature of what it is will be a barrier to most people, I don’t know you but strongly suspect your anecdotal experience is not very representative of the masses. I don’t know what is sustainable about creating a temporary tent city, it’s certainly not something everyone could do. 

As someone mentioned you could hold this event in a hotel or University, perhaps with spin-out events like the Convention of Modern liberty did, and tied into a range of mass media engagement and a series of BBC programs. Jeez if it was done seriously you would probably get some movers and shakers on board and actually contribute to some serious policy development. 

Instead people are getting trained about how to get arrested, and engaging in an orgy of self-righteousness. The green movement needs to grow up stop and stop playing the radical.  Getting high in fields will change nought.  People need to realize that real change is not about having a party or pissing about in a field it’s about spreadsheets, difficult planning meetings where complex issues are played out, engineering solutions, playing the mainstream media, influencing people’s aspirations, public meetings, handing out leaflets in the rain.

Most people see the Climate Change and they see a bunch of hippies, what does climate camp mean to your average person whose life is about work, family, having a drink, watching some sport reading a paper and watching the telly?  Fuck all is the answer and that’s the problem.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 28, 2009)

where to said:


> can anyone summarise to me what they are doing in a wee paragraph


 trying to raise awareness of climate change


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 28, 2009)

moon23 said:


> Topcat the very nature of what it is will be a barrier to most people, I don’t know you but strongly suspect your anecdotal experience is not very representative of the masses. I don’t know what is sustainable about creating a temporary tent cities, it’s certainly not something everyone could do.
> 
> As someone mentioned you could hold this event in a hotel or University, perhaps with spin-out events like the Convention of Modern liberty and tied into a range of mass media engagement and a series of BBC programs. Jeez if it was done seriously you would probably get some movers and shakers on board and actually contribute to some serious policy development.
> 
> ...


 lol i agree with most of what you were saying, in that most people are alienated by these events ( it feeds into the victim complex many people currently have) but then you started on about 'spreadsheets, difficult planning meetings' and i think you have missed the point which is that these people (and i) do not think capitalism as the ability to deal with climate change


----------



## moon23 (Aug 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> lol i agree with most of what you were saying, in that most people are alienated by these events ( it feeds into the victim complex many people currently have) but then you started on about 'spreadsheets, difficult planning meetings' and i think you have missed the point which is that these people (and i) do not think capitalism as the ability to deal with climate change



So what a non-capitalist society would have no spreadsheets or planning meetings? Opposing Capitalism requires all those boring work things as well.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 28, 2009)

moon23 said:


> People need to realize that real change is not about having a party or pissing about in a field it’s about spreadsheets, difficult planning meetings where complex issues are played out, engineering solutions, playing the mainstream media, influencing people’s aspirations, public meetings, handing out leaflets in the rain.



That's your view and not one I agree with. I think radical change will only come from sustained insurrection involving mass actions against the police if they try to stop self organised demonstrations.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 28, 2009)

moon23 said:


> So what a non-capitalist society would have no spreadsheets or planning meetings? Opposing Capitalism requires all those boring work things as well.


 of course planning but all that quantative shit is part of the problem which ignore what 'quality' actually is and alienates people from what is going on


----------



## moon23 (Aug 28, 2009)

TopCat said:


> That's your view and not one I agree with. I think radical change will only come from sustained insurrection involving mass actions against the police if they try to stop self organised demonstrations.



A ‘sustained  insurrection’  does not seem a terribly realistic prospect. I guess I’m more bothered about making Environmental activism about law-making rather than law-breaking.


----------



## moon23 (Aug 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> of course planning but all that quantative shit is part of the problem which ignore what 'quality' actually is and alienates people from what is going on



Yes instrumentalization of bureaucratic processes within technological societies is a problem, but partly because people have setup up those systems in a way which acts in their benefit. The current quantitive processes within our current society are in other words loaded in favour of the interests of the capitalists and backed up by a civil service, and internationally through legislation, the world bank and IMF. 

That’s all the more challenge we have to setup our own democratic processes and adapt existing processes to our political will in a transition period. Climate Camp is way off the levers of power in this regard.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 28, 2009)

moon23 said:


> Yes instrumentalization of bureaucratic processes within technological societies is a problem, but partly because people have setup up those systems in a way which acts in their benefit. The current quantitive processes within our current society are in other words loaded in favour of the interests of the capitalists and backed up by a civil service, and internationally through legislation, the world bank and IMF.
> 
> That’s all the more challenge we have to setup our own democratic processes and adapt existing processes to our political will in a transition period. Climate Camp is way off the levers of power in this regard.


 fair play and this is  the tension in the CC movement


----------



## TopCat (Aug 28, 2009)

Well the climate does not look too rainy, I think attending the CC party will be done.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 28, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Well the climate does not look too rainy, I think attending the CC party will be done.



It's pissing down in Soho, moving that way


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## TopCat (Aug 28, 2009)

moon23 said:


> Yes instrumentalization of bureaucratic processes within technological societies is a problem, but partly because people have setup up those systems in a way which acts in their benefit. The current quantitive processes within our current society are in other words loaded in favour of the interests of the capitalists and backed up by a civil service, and internationally through legislation, the world bank and IMF.
> 
> That’s all the more challenge we have to setup our own democratic processes and adapt existing processes to our political will in a transition period. Climate Camp is way off the levers of power in this regard.



What beg current leaders for reform? Capitalism can't be reformed, it needs constant growth to survive.


----------



## shaman75 (Aug 28, 2009)

A group is heading for Barclays, Canary Wharf, apparently

http://twitter.com/climatecamp


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## TopCat (Aug 28, 2009)

shaman75 said:


> A group is heading for Barclays, Canary Wharf, apparently
> 
> http://twitter.com/climatecamp



Plus they are no longer walking in single file on the pavement but have taken the roads... The WAGS have had some influence!


----------



## moon23 (Aug 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> fair play and this is  the tension in the CC movement



Perhaps i'm being too harsh and CC does help bring an awareness about through displaying those tensions.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 28, 2009)

moon23 said:


> Perhaps i'm being too harsh and CC does help bring an awareness about through displaying those tensions.


 no i am not sure you are .. i am really not sure it does any good at all frankly .. as i said above it plays totally into the whole negative stuff thats going on ( no smoking no speeding no flying no cars don't do this don't do that, that people really hate ( rightly or wrongly) and the positive self organisation stuff ( which is cool) is soo out of peoples ken that it just does not inspire 99% of those people 


.. the vague hopes i guess is that it could inspire enough young people that at some stage in the future it breaks out of its incredibly middle class ghetto


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## moon23 (Aug 28, 2009)

No not beg current leaders, but rather ingrain the ideas so deeply into society with a full-spectrum approach that people are able to lead themselves.

 Think how an ad man manipulates a consumer, they sell happiness. As Durruti2 just points out CC plays into the negative stuff and any positive organizing aspects are too detached from the experiences of most working people. It’s a political dud in term of changing people’s minds. 

Think how a newspaper influences its reader, how the civil service create the process in which laws are created, how a University course educates people. All these forces create the capitalist hegemony. Now imagine if we were to become the magistrate, the University lecturer, the program editor as some of us may already be and we harnessed the tools to teach self-determination, open debate, equalitarianism, environmentalism.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 28, 2009)

moon23 said:


> No not beg current leaders, but rather ingrain the ideas so deeply into society with a full-spectrum approach that people are able to lead themselves.
> 
> Think how an ad man manipulates a consumer, they sell happiness. As Durruti2 just points out CC plays into the negative stuff and any positive organizing aspects are too detached from the experiences of most working people. It’s a political dud in term of changing people’s minds.
> 
> Think how a newspaper influences its reader, how the civil service create the process in which laws are created, how a University course educates people. All these forces create the capitalist hegemony. Now imagine if we were to become the magistrate, the University lecturer, the program editor as some of us may already be and we harnessed the tools to teach self-determination, open debate, equalitarianism, environmentalism.



again i agree "CC plays into the negative stuff and any positive organizing aspects are too detached from the experiences of most working people. It’s a political dud in term of changing people’s minds. "

but really can't agree with "Now imagine if we were to become the magistrate, the University lecturer, the program editor ....." 

imho and looking at history it just does not work like that .. this has been the policy of many middle class leftists for generations .. i can not see it working .. if that IS you then fine do that kinda stuff but the class dynamic represented by this actually is the same as your negative comment above


----------



## moon23 (Aug 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> no i am not sure you are .. i am really not sure it does any good at all frankly .. as i said above it plays totally into the whole negative stuff thats going on ( no smoking no speeding no flying no cars don't do this don't do that, that people really hate ( rightly or wrongly) and the positive self organisation stuff ( which is cool) is soo out of peoples ken that it just does not inspire 99% of those people
> 
> 
> .. the vague hopes i guess is that it could inspire enough young people that at some stage in the future it breaks out of its incredibly middle class ghetto



I agree generally people like to feel like they are self-determined and don’t like being told they can’t do x or y which is why Capitalist consumer culture does so well, as it provides the illusion of us determining ourselves through the purchases we make. Through the process of reification our interactions become like transactions, items take on fetish properties that we trade to obtain satisfaction, wealth, power and sex. 

People will always want a degree of material wealth, but if you are able to provide other means of satisfaction then you are onto a winning with a political idea. Imagine for instance if climate camp was built around the model of a street party or village fete. I’ve seen a few kinds of fun local environmental things like this and to be honest they engage far more people then CC does. They are also a lot more likely to engage the working classes. For instance school children get involved, people bake and sell cakes You could even rig up a sustainable power source to power a screening of X-Factor or a range of other forms of entertainment that are quite popular. 

I have a lot more respect for someone working on something like the idea of becoming a transition town rather than someone who seeks to paint themselves as a radical. The later just seems threatening to people rather than a new way of living that could be a lot more fun!


----------



## moon23 (Aug 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> imho and looking at history it just does not work like that .. this has been the policy of many middle class leftists for generations .. i can not see it working .. if that IS you then fine do that kinda stuff but the class dynamic represented by this actually is the same as your negative comment above



Maybe I need to break out of my own Ghetto, but empowering people to realize that they can themselves become the instituion is the intention.


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## smokedout (Aug 29, 2009)

just got back, was nice enough if a little irrelevant, but the 6 year old enjoyed it - even if after a couple of hours he was wandering round site shouting its boring here

and it was, theres lots of signs up saying this is not a festival etc, but given the lack of any significant actions it all seemed a little pointless

a bit more entertainment, a bit more for kids, and it might have actually engaged the community, as it was, it was all very worthy, all very middle class, utterly pointless and just a little bit dull


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## Thora (Aug 29, 2009)

I went to quite an interesting meeting/workshop (I think hosted by the Anarchist Federation) on Friday, but yes - not much entertainment-wise going on and didn't really see the point of it myself.  It's the first one I've been too though.  Reminded me of a less interesting Earth First gathering but with more students.


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## durruti02 (Aug 30, 2009)

smokedout said:


> just got back, was nice enough if a little irrelevant, but the 6 year old enjoyed it - even if after a couple of hours he was wandering round site shouting its boring here
> 
> and it was, theres lots of signs up saying this is not a festival etc, but given the lack of any significant actions it all seemed a little pointless
> 
> a bit more entertainment, a bit more for kids, and it might have actually engaged the community, as it was, it was all very worthy, all very middle class, utterly pointless and just a little bit dull


 agree .. at heathrow it seemed relevent and many locals who came were directly affected by it .. kingsnorth again was direct and building up to mass action .. i don't know i just feel little in common with this this year


----------



## david dissadent (Aug 30, 2009)

I attended a couple of workshops today and was generaly very impressed with the level of technical discussion involved. The one on 'techno fixes' was far far too brief for such a vast broad topic but to be fair many of these individual fixes have entire confrences and university courses dedicated to them alone.

The other was a primer on comunicating climate change to others and this was also good. It managed to be honest about the doubts and in fact emphisised the many areas where there is still a great deal of uncertanty and easily managed to stay within the bounds of IPCC4, while touching on the sense of alarm many professionals within the climate science comunity feel. To be fair I was expecting something alot less technical and more alarmist. It also managed to cover areas such as the psychology of risk perception and the "importing" of carbon.

Gvien that these are not seminars held by Gavin Schmidt or James Hansen, I was very comfortable with the level of of the science being discussed. 

Two issues stuck in the mind. Whenever population came up, people were very quick to point out it is consumption not numbers that is the problem. That is to say people were very quick to point out that solutions involved the wealthy (us) changing our lifestyles not population cuts. There are alot of groups who use energy depletion and ecological problems are trojan horses for 'population' agendas. I really dont think this is what was happening here. 

And whenever China was brought up, people were quick to point out we consume Chinas carbon production (all the crap we import form the third world). 

Two of the easiest scapegoats for the worlds carbon were being actively played down. 

From a technical perspective I was pretty comfortable with the infromation being presented. I also spoke to a couple of people who were not really political activists but had come along. 

My impression from the past 3 days re-inforces what I seen at Bishopsgate. It is something that has alot of potential to appeal to people who are not currently all that involved in active politics. It is also something that will not immediately alienate mainstream opinion. I really wish them all the best of success. I am struggling to think of other groups who are attracting young people to get involved and take risks for political changes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2009)

out of curiosity, who's doing the cooking at the camp? when i went to see the hippies yesterday, it seemed to be exclusively women. what would the anarcha-feminists think?


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 30, 2009)

couples of to and fros whether CC is better than newbury .. interesting 

http://bristlingbadger.blogspot.com/2009/08/climate-camp-vs-newbury.html


----------



## Prince Rhyus (Aug 30, 2009)

*Journalist complains about lack of violent confrontation at climate camp*

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2009/aug/30/climate-change-police-direct-action
_
Five days in and the campers admit things are a little boring – there are no more toilets to put up and the police have vanished. But a plan for direct action should put the zip back into things_

Or rather "a plan for direct action should give me some headlines to report."


----------



## winjer (Aug 30, 2009)

Nah, she's a columnist / commentator, has just as much to say for herself whether anything happens or not.

And she's definitely not looking for violent confrontation, in her handbook for activists she presents some analysis of the effectiveness of activism vs pacifism, and concludes that although non-violence is ineffective, social movements should stick to it as it's just a bit _nicer_.


----------



## jæd (Aug 31, 2009)

david dissadent said:


> My impression from the past 3 days re-inforces what I seen at Bishopsgate. It is something that has alot of potential to appeal to people who are not currently all that involved in active politics. It is also something that will not immediately alienate mainstream opinion. I really wish them all the best of success. I am struggling to think of other groups who are attracting young people to get involved and take risks for political changes.



If they dropped the "anti-capitalism" bit they would have more success. All the people I've spoken won't bother with them because of it. And if they are going to abolish capialism, by the time they've implemented something better Climate Change will have happened.

But then they would just be what they really are. Yet another lobby group, just one that thinks they are special and can break the rulez.


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 31, 2009)

From what I've seen, anti-capitalism is an increasingly small current within the scene around Climate Camp.  Plenty of liberals, Green party types and other assorted wankers involved now.


----------



## paolo (Aug 31, 2009)

Like David Dissadent, I thought the technical detail was excellent. Often beyond my level of understanding, but it was good to see it was that way, rather than simplistic and lightweight. The session I attended on alternatives to the carbon trading system was excellent. Three NGO proposed schemes, all set in the real world, i.e. trading frameworks that do not require the end of capitalism to function.

Many of the questions from the session audiences to the panels also demonstrated real depth of understanding on particular subjects. And there were some good challenging questions too.

It's basically a conference. Multiple tracks, panels, Q&A sessions - all that stuff. There's hippy stuff to be found too, but I'd say that was in the minority.

(The camp logistics also impressed me. Very organised. Reasonable loos, full water network across the whole camp, showers (cold ones I expect), five way split recycling, very very tidy. Solar charged battery array providing light & PA power for the evening sessions and the bands.)

Whilst CC isn't the sole solution for environmental activism, I think it has a role to play. I'd go again.


----------



## the button (Aug 31, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> From what I've seen, anti-capitalism is an increasingly small current within the scene around Climate Camp.  Plenty of liberals, Green party types and other assorted wankers involved now.





> Usually going to the climate camp seems a bit like setting off for the Paris Commune, good but edgy



http://another-green-world.blogspot.com/


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Sep 1, 2009)

climatecampUp to 20 campers inside rbs. On second floor too. Dressed as construction workers. More info as it arrives!
7 minutes ago 

  climatecampAlso climate campers on the roof and in the windows of E.INS PR company Edelman. Naked. Go

_
couple of interesting tweets just in from cloimate camp....._


----------



## jæd (Sep 1, 2009)

AKA pseudonym said:


> climatecampUp to 20 campers inside rbs. On second floor too. Dressed as construction workers. More info as it arrives!
> 7 minutes ago
> 
> climatecampAlso climate campers on the roof and in the windows of E.INS PR company Edelman. Naked. Go
> ...



So which bit of RBS have they stormed this time...? The IT bit, some random RBS Branch in the City, or some shopping centre...?


----------



## paolo (Sep 1, 2009)

jæd said:


> So which bit of RBS have they stormed this time...?



What RBS building have Climate Camp stormed previously


----------



## jæd (Sep 1, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> What RBS building have Climate Camp stormed previously



Well, none since my post was a bit inn-accurate. But I remember the fuss when people were trying to work out which bit of RBS was smashed at the G20 protests. And it turned out to be a branch... 



> http://twitpic.com/g2kcq outside rbs! 11 d-locked on and 6 glued together on second floor. We've shut the bank down!



Um... Nope.


----------



## ajdown (Sep 1, 2009)

So they glued themselves to the floor?  How clever of them.  What if there was a fire?

Wouldn't it be a real shame if the security camera wasn't working for about an hour whilst they were given a well deserved kicking?

I suppose it makes them feel good that they've done something, even if they haven't achieved anything of any real value.  Great way to grab attention to their cause, by disrupting innocent people once again.


----------



## jæd (Sep 1, 2009)

ajdown said:


> So they glued themselves to the floor?  How clever of them.  What if there was a fire?



Then people would use the Fire Exits. 

Are they using Environmentally Friendly Glue with no nasty chemicals it then...?

Now quite bizarrely they are picketing a Tower Hamlets college.


----------



## ajdown (Sep 1, 2009)

I'm talking about the people that had glued themselves to the floor; how would they get out?  Presumably they don't have any "superglue remover" on them so they can get out instead of burning?  

Most likely emergency service workers would have to risk their lives rescuing these idiots.


----------



## fogbat (Sep 1, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I'm talking about the people that had glued themselves to the floor; how would they get out?  Presumably they don't have any "superglue remover" on them so they can get out instead of burning?
> 
> Most likely emergency service workers would have to risk their lives rescuing these idiots.



Someday, you'll make a useful contribution to a thread, AJ. I can feel it. I have faith in you.

Looks like today won't be the day, however


----------



## jæd (Sep 1, 2009)

I love the way the students think that by blocking the doors of a company they have "shut it down"....


----------



## fogbat (Sep 1, 2009)

jæd said:


> I love the way the students think that by blocking the doors of a company they have "shut it down"....



Do you think anyone actually thinks that?


----------



## jæd (Sep 1, 2009)

fogbat said:


> Do you think anyone actually thinks that?



It depends if they are believing their own bullshit  / PR...

Interesting response on the Londonist:



> We offered the naked protestors the chance to sit down (preferably with their clothes on) and discuss their issues and concerns. sadly, they declined. They seem more interested in grabbing the picture story and the headline that in serious conversation - a spin all of their own.


http://londonist.com/2009/09/climate_campers_hit_the_town.php


----------



## smokedout (Sep 1, 2009)

jæd said:


> It depends if they are believing their own bullshit  / PR...
> 
> Interesting response on the Londonist:
> 
> ...



PR company spins event to make them look reasonable and protesters bad shock


----------



## cesare (Sep 1, 2009)

smokedout said:


> PR company spins event to make them look reasonable and protesters bad shock



Do you think that stuntism works in the context of climate change though?

I'm undecided. Greenpeace, for example, use stuntism ... but they're fairly well established.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 1, 2009)

cesare said:


> Do you think that stuntism works in the context of climate change though?
> 
> I'm undecided. Greenpeace, for example, use stuntism ... but they're fairly well established.



no i think they're reformist scum who should be shot at the first opportunity, but they're our reformist scum and only we get to shoot them


----------



## cesare (Sep 1, 2009)

smokedout said:


> no i think they're reformist scum who should be shot at the first opportunity, but they're our reformist scum and only we get to shoot them



Ours, being?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 1, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Wouldn't it be a real shame if the security camera wasn't working for about an hour whilst they were given a well deserved kicking?


So disrupting the daily running of a bank means they 'deserve a good kicking'?


----------



## smokedout (Sep 1, 2009)

cesare said:


> Ours, being?



if you dont know then im not allowed to tell you


----------



## cesare (Sep 1, 2009)

smokedout said:


> if you dont know then im not allowed to tell you





I've got nothing against raising awareness of climate issues, but I don't feel especially politically aligned with climate camp, iyswim.


----------



## ajdown (Sep 1, 2009)

Rutita1 said:


> So disrupting the daily running of a bank means they 'deserve a good kicking'?



They're disrupting innocent people, period.  I'm pretty sure that a lot of people working at that building aren't responsible for whatever corporate decisions the people are protesting about.

Protesters doing that sort of demonstration actually don't achieve anything for their cause, don't win supporters, and 99% of the media coverage they get is simply an opportunity for further ridicule from the sensible part of society.


----------



## moon23 (Sep 1, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I'm talking about the people that had glued themselves to the floor; how would they get out?  Presumably they don't have any "superglue remover" on them so they can get out instead of burning?
> 
> Most likely emergency service workers would have to risk their lives rescuing these idiots.



Health and Safety gone mad!


----------



## moon23 (Sep 1, 2009)

ajdown said:


> They're disrupting innocent people, period.  I'm pretty sure that a lot of people working at that building aren't responsible for whatever corporate decisions the people are protesting about.
> 
> Protesters doing that sort of demonstration actually don't achieve anything for their cause, don't win supporters, and 99% of the media coverage they get is simply an opportunity for further ridicule from the sensible part of society.



To be honest most workers would secretly think great we can't get into the office to do any work then skiv about smoking fags, and having a whinge about how terrible it is becuase they are so busy and work so hard.


----------



## In Bloom (Sep 1, 2009)

ajdown said:


> They're disrupting innocent people, period.  I'm pretty sure that a lot of people working at that building aren't responsible for whatever corporate decisions the people are protesting about.


I'm sure most of the people working at that building were absolutely gutted at the prospect of being paid to do nothing because the protesters were in their way.  Really


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 1, 2009)

ajdown said:


> They're disrupting innocent people, period.  I'm pretty sure that a lot of people working at that building aren't responsible for whatever corporate decisions the people are protesting about.


You didn't answer my question.....and now I have another, do people who disrupt the daily running of a bank (including the working day of employees there) 'deserve a good kicking'?


----------



## david dissadent (Sep 1, 2009)

Bit of a protest outside Shell Centre on South Bank. Loads of police and helicopters.


----------



## shaman75 (Sep 1, 2009)

> Edelmen's chief executive officer *Robert Phillips said the Climate Camp protesters caused "no disruption whatsoever"*.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8231209.stm



which seems to differ from the account offered by a friend who works in the same building.



> Imagine my surprise when i get to work and find these 7 smelly oiks in my office foyer >>
> 
> The rozzers turned up and after a while would not let anyone out or in.... this did not go down well with the 8 floors of office staff here and things were beginning to turn a bit ugly downstairs with hungry people hurling insults.
> 
> The coppers have just started to let us in and out of the building. If they had kept that up for much longer I would have had to set off the fire alarm to get to my subsidised canteen in time for my lunch, a few of us were beginning to consider it


----------



## A Dashing Blade (Sep 1, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> I'm sure most of the people working at that building were absolutely gutted at the prospect of being paid to do nothing because the protesters were in their way.  Really



I know that the peeps working in that building simply walked thru the post-room entrance


----------



## A Dashing Blade (Sep 1, 2009)

ajdown said:


> They're disrupting innocent people, period.  I'm pretty sure that a lot of people working at that building aren't responsible for whatever corporate decisions the people are protesting about.



Tbh, no-one was disrupted, not in the slightest. 

The only reason they chose that building (rather than sites that are relevent to their cause) is because it's a big glass building in a prominant position with "RBS" plastered accross it.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 1, 2009)

Well the CC mob should be well on their way to clearing up and dismantling their camp by now. I think it will be pristine given the attention to detail and organisation. In my mind they have done well on this overall action. 

They refused to discuss plans with the police. 

They successfully seized (and held) the space they wanted to use as a camp.

They kept most of the nutters attracted to this sort of thing busy or outside. 

They (after a wee lapse) refused to let the police on site, having all meetings off of site,. 

They were very well organised and showed much planning in what they did. 

The toilets were fabulous, not smelling after 5 days is a great achievement. Always having loo paper and a candle in a jar was very welcoming. 

Much of the camp had lit boarded walkways which helped wheelchair users and the visually impaired. 

Being a bunch of environmentalist types, the whole camp only had necessary lighting and was semi invisible set up on the heath. The music stopped at midnight on the Saturday so bothered no one (unless you hate the Inner Terrestrials and were present).

I never expected any of their away day actions to cause the demise of Capitalism so I was not too let down by the limited reach of what was done. 

They got a lot of local people interested and indeed on board. 

I might not agree with much of what they profess but I'm glad they are out there...


----------



## jæd (Sep 1, 2009)

shaman75 said:


> which seems to differ from the account offered by a friend who works in the same building.



Some PR hacks not being able to get their lunch isn't exactly "disruption". 

The problem with stuntism is that its the "me, me, me" version of lobbying. Their solution _it must be done_ because they can shout the loudest.


----------



## shaman75 (Sep 1, 2009)

jæd said:


> Some PR hacks not being able to get their lunch isn't exactly "disruption".



Oh.  You know him?  Brilliant.

I didn't realise he was a hack or in pr.  Must have changed jobs.  Last time we spoke he was working for tfl.

Never mind.  I'm sure there was no disruption caused to staff of other companies.  Even if they weren't allowed to enter or leave the building in which they work.

Which means the chief exec of the targeted company was right in asserting that there was no disruption.

Quite a relief, as I thought he might have been trying to play down the impact of the protest by stretching the truth.


----------



## cesare (Sep 1, 2009)

shaman75 said:


> Oh.  You know him?  Brilliant.
> 
> I didn't realise he was a hack or in pr.  Must have changed jobs.  Last time we spoke he was working for tfl.
> 
> ...


----------



## jæd (Sep 1, 2009)

shaman75 said:


> Oh.  You know him?  Brilliant.
> 
> I didn't realise he was a hack or in pr.  Must have changed jobs.  Last time we spoke he was working for tfl.



Oh, he works in a _different_ company in the same office...


----------



## paolo (Sep 1, 2009)

TopCat said:


> Being a bunch of environmentalist types, the whole camp only had necessary lighting and was semi invisible set up on the heath.



Too right about invisible at night. On the phone to dissidant, trying to find it, I was cursing the met for not having their arc light on. Bastards never switched it on once in the time I was there!

Maybe they were trying not to waste energy.


----------



## paolo (Sep 1, 2009)

jæd said:


> Some PR hacks not being able to get their lunch isn't exactly "disruption".
> 
> The problem with stuntism is that its the "me, me, me" version of lobbying. Their solution _it must be done_ because they can shout the loudest.



Depends on how you value the cause. I doubt you would question the validity of the suffragettes. And yet I'm sure, at the time, _some_ people would have made the same criticism.

History judges these things better than the present, and in doing so makes fools out of some people.


----------



## paolo (Sep 1, 2009)

Photees:

Climate Camp had a full water system. Conventional drainage was replaced by the use of straw bales, which were also used for "pee" toilets, to then be sent off for composting. "Poo" toilets used plastic bins, with sawdust to sprinkle after use. The long drop arrangement would be familiar to many festival goers, but the net result was in fact far less smelly.








Monday was hot hot hot. In the early evening, some people were still hiding from the sun. Others had a football game outside the camp.







Tea cup in hand, Julia Pendry, Met police Gold Command, leaves the gate after a daily liaison meeting. After the initial hostility from their on site visit - which wasn't welcomed by many campers - the atmosphere around the liaison visit seemed very welcoming. Almost to the point that it looked like each 'side' was trying to 'out nice' each other. Surreal to watch, after G20.







After a day of seminars, some very heavyweight, the early evenings lent themselves to lighter stuff. It ranged from people singing - yes it did happen - kum bye ya, right through to speed dating! ("Yeah... We had to send the men away - there were too many" I overheard, walking past some organisers).







After dark, the main tent - used for multiple seminars tracks in the day - was merged back into a single venue. Using low power LED lighting, the stage run from a solar charged battery array, bands played until the 11pm shutdown. Acts included Emmy the Great, and the Mystery Jets doing a DJ set.


----------



## jæd (Sep 2, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> History judges these things better than the present, and in doing so makes fools out of some people.



So it may, but I suspect not many of the Climate Camp will be up to jumping in front of horses...


----------



## xes (Sep 2, 2009)

only because the nazi scum police didn't charge them with horses


----------



## fogbat (Sep 2, 2009)

jæd said:


> So it may, but I suspect not many of the Climate Camp will be up to jumping in front of horses...



If they did, though, they'd merit a bloody good kicking for disrupting the horses' day


----------



## ajdown (Sep 2, 2009)

xes said:


> only because the nazi scum police didn't charge them with horses



I'd charge them with obstruction and criminal trespass personally...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 2, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I'd charge them with obstruction and criminal trespass personally...



With or without a 'good kicking?'


----------



## TopCat (Sep 2, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I'd charge them with obstruction and criminal trespass personally...



But you can't...


----------



## ajdown (Sep 2, 2009)

Well I know I can't, because I'm not the police or the RBS.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 2, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Well I know I can't, because I'm not the police or the RBS.



So it's just more froth and indignation.


----------



## david dissadent (Sep 2, 2009)

*Britain faces blackouts.*

Link 

This is old old news that is repeated every year, but our nuclear fleet is coming to the end of its life, our gas reserves are running out quickly and we need alot of power generating capacity quickly. This will come from new coal power stations. Coal has the highest rating of CO2 per BTU of all the major energy sources. 

The option of using less energy does not seem to have occured to anyone. 

But then again this government is building new runways for more airflights. Coal wont power them so god knows where they think that energy will come from.


----------



## xes (Sep 2, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Well I know I can't, because I'm not the police or the RBS.



good fucking job, although, to be fair, i think you'd fit right in to that fucking nazi pig scum outfit.


----------



## ajdown (Sep 2, 2009)

xes said:


> good fucking job, although, to be fair, i think you'd fit right in to that fucking nazi pig scum outfit.



I wouldn't pass the fitness test so don't worry.


----------



## paolo (Sep 2, 2009)

david dissadent said:


> Link
> 
> This is old old news that is repeated every year, but our nuclear fleet is coming to the end of its life, our gas reserves are running out quickly and we need alot of power generating capacity quickly. This will come from new coal power stations. Coal has the highest rating of CO2 per BTU of all the major energy sources.
> 
> ...



The economist ran this as the cover story a few weeks ago:

How long till lights go out?

Similarly, it doesn't explore the idea of using less energy.


----------



## moon23 (Sep 2, 2009)

david dissadent said:


> Link
> 
> This is old old news that is repeated every year, but our nuclear fleet is coming to the end of its life, our gas reserves are running out quickly and we need alot of power generating capacity quickly. This will come from new coal power stations. Coal has the highest rating of CO2 per BTU of all the major energy sources.
> 
> ...



If the green lobby were no opposing Nuclear as an option then we would probably have that rather than coal which would be much better.


----------



## jæd (Sep 2, 2009)

david dissadent said:


> Link
> 
> This is old old news that is repeated every year, but our nuclear fleet is coming to the end of its life, our gas reserves are running out quickly and we need alot of power generating capacity quickly. This will come from new coal power stations. Coal has the highest rating of CO2 per BTU of all the major energy sources.
> 
> ...



This is one of the problems I have with the Climate Camp lot. They're great at pointing at all the ills at the moment, but their solutions leave a lot to be desired. Singing "kum-by-yar" won't power electric cars or even our existing power requirements. They are going to wish we had built those coal powered Power Stations when we had a chance...


----------



## paolo (Sep 2, 2009)

moon23 said:


> If the green lobby were no opposing Nuclear as an option then we would probably have that rather than coal which would be much better.



The green lobby is irrelevant on that point. We can't build nuclear in time to meet the shortfall.

If you read the Economist article, it might challenge some your prejudices. And I think it's safe to say they can't be accused of being a hippy publication.


----------



## Balbi (Sep 2, 2009)

Just got back.

Awesome. Tar Sands, B.P, Hell Centre.....

Pics later.


----------



## moon23 (Sep 2, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> The green lobby is irrelevant on that point. We can't build nuclear in time to meet the shortfall.
> 
> If you read the Economist article, it might challenge some your prejudices. And I think it's safe to say they can't be accused of being a hippy publication.



Ok, but it's not a prejudice but rather my opinon that has been formed through both hosting public meetings with academic experts on Nuclear Energy and time spent volunteering with FOE and speaking leading members of the Green movement. Maybe i'm wrong, it's not my area so basically like 90% i'm just a lay person trying to get my head around it.

I know nothing is simply when it comes to energy, but I do think Nuclear is a 'Green' as in low carbon source of natural energy that could be made use of alongside renewable. 

There isn't one solution though, reducing consumption should certinaly be a component.


----------



## paolo (Sep 2, 2009)

moon23 said:


> Ok, but it's not a prejudice but rather my opinon that has been formed through both hosting public meetings with academic experts on Nuclear Energy and time spent volunteering with FOE and speaking leading members of the Green movement. Maybe i'm wrong, it's not my area so basically like 90% i'm just a lay person trying to get my head around it.
> 
> I know nothing is simply when it comes to energy, but I do think Nuclear is a 'Green' as in low carbon source of natural energy that could be made use of alongside renewable.
> 
> There isn't one solution though, reducing consumption should certinaly be a component.



My use of 'prejudice' was presumptious - consider it withdrawn 

I think you're right that there's plenty of greens against nuclear - but it's now a moot point for the short-medium term. Personally I'd also take nuclear rather than coal, or a possibly risky increased dependency on imported gas, but sadly coal is looking more and more likely.

So yep, reducing consumption is worth a go. The 1010uk.org campaign launched yesterday. It may or may not fly, but there's no harm trying.


----------



## boskysquelch (Sep 2, 2009)

wank


----------



## david dissadent (Sep 2, 2009)

jæd said:


> This is one of the problems I have with the Climate Camp lot. They're great at pointing at all the ills at the moment, but their solutions leave a lot to be desired. Singing "kum-by-yar" won't power electric cars or even our existing power requirements. They are going to wish we had built those coal powered Power Stations when we had a chance...


It’s not their fault that there is so much CO2 in the atmosphere. It’s not their fault that governments have ignored the science for the past 30 years. It’s not them who failed to adequately plan for the blindingly obvious peaking of the UKs gas production and the decommissioning its ageing fleet of nuclear power stations. 
Don’t like the choices, that’s just tough. We are very likely facing extraordinarily dangerous climate change. We pissed our chances of dealing with it easily away in the 80s and 90s. Trying to blame people for pointing this out is just shooting the messenger.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 2, 2009)

still, a jolly good sing song round the campfire should sort things out what


----------



## eoin_k (Sep 2, 2009)

I've heard some persuasive arguments that nuclear has a fairly high carbon footprint when you look at the whole process from extracting the uranium, using concrete to build numerous facilities (power stations, reprocessing plants, storage bunkers) and finally managing the waste product for centuries into the future.

I've also heard persuasive arguments that the potential to substitute to nuclear is limited by the scarcity of uranium as a resource.  As supply dwindles the purity declines and more resources will be spent extracting uranium and more waste produced i.e the waste from which the uranium has to be extracted.

Which isn't to mention the nuclear industries other 'green' credentials.


----------



## paolo (Sep 2, 2009)

eoin_k said:


> I've heard some persuasive arguments that nuclear has a fairly high carbon footprint when you look at the whole process from extracting the uranium, using concrete to build numerous facilities (power stations, reprocessing plants, storage bunkers) and finally managing the waste product for centuries into the future.
> 
> I've also heard persuasive arguments that the potential to substitute to nuclear is limited by the scarcity of uranium as a resource.  As supply dwindles the purity declines and more resources will be spent extracting uranium and more waste produced i.e the waste from which the uranium has to be extracted.
> 
> Which isn't to mention the nuclear industries other 'green' credentials.



I've heard similar - I've yet to do the reading to make my own mind up.

IMHO:

If it is the case, then we're left with reduction in energy consumption as the immediate strategy?

Against: It requires buy-in on a level that requires a rapid acceleration of awareness, or (stick version) drastic measures that are politically unacceptable.

Pros: There's no technical impediment or build-time issues. If attitudes change, it can happen quite quickly.


----------



## boskysquelch (Sep 3, 2009)

clak_clik


----------



## paolo (Sep 3, 2009)

Balbi said:


> Just got back.
> 
> Awesome. Tar Sands, B.P, Hell Centre.....
> 
> Pics later.



Looking forward to your take on it.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 3, 2009)

jæd said:


> This is one of the problems I have with the Climate Camp lot. They're great at pointing at all the ills at the moment, but their solutions leave a lot to be desired. Singing "kum-by-yar" won't power electric cars or even our existing power requirements. They are going to wish we had built those coal powered Power Stations when we had a chance...


I think they'd be more likely to be wishing that we'd built the wind, wave, tidal and tidal stream generating capacity this country should have been building for the last 30 years rather than the own goal that was the dash for gas.

all the above would have happened as well if it hadn't been for the nuclear lobby successfully closing down the wave power programme in the 80's through skullduggery, followed by further skullduggery to fuck up wind power through the 90's to the present day, and ensure that r&d funding for other renewables was kept at miniscule levels.

this country has the biggest wind, tidal, wave and tidal stream resources of any country in europe, yet has among the lowest proportion of renewable energy production of any country in europe. We do not need a new generation of nuclear or coal, we just need to pull our fingers out at last and actually put in place a proper long term well funded strategy agreed by all parties to go ahead full tilt with the transition to a renewable energy based future.


----------



## In Bloom (Sep 3, 2009)

moon23 said:


> I know nothing is simply when it comes to energy, but I do think Nuclear is a 'Green' as in low carbon source of natural energy that could be made use of alongside renewable.


Even if the reduction in carbon from switching from coal to nuclear were worthwhile on those terms, there's no point in switching from one environmentally disastrous form of energy production to another.  We simply can't keep building up nuclear waste and storing it for ever, eventually we're going to run out of room.


----------



## In Bloom (Sep 3, 2009)

Anyway, on the off chance that anybody's interested, AF members who attended the camp have produced a perspective paper on their experiences and the relationship between class struggle anarchists and the green movement, Climate Camp and Us.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 3, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Anyway, on the off chance that anybody's interested, AF members who attended the camp have produced a perspective paper on their experiences and the relationship between class struggle anarchists and the green movement, Climate Camp and Us.



This is a thoughtful analysis by people who actually attended Climate Camp and is well worth a read.


----------



## boskysquelch (Sep 3, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Anyway, on the off chance that anybody's interested,



I was, am & have.


----------



## boskysquelch (Sep 3, 2009)

& out of interest...and randomly chosen...was "anyone" in attendance of these...


> Making our workplaces Red, Black and Green
> 
> MM2, Fri, 10:30-11:30
> 
> short, introductory discussion outlining the history of ecological struggles in the workplace. This will be followed by an open debate/discussion focusing on some key practical issues: _ How do we challenge the perceived divide between the workers and ecological movement? Why is it important? _ What are the limitations of “Green” trade unions and how do we re-connect with rank-and-file workers? _ What could a “Green New Deal” mean for us? How do we interact with workers tied into the carbon economy?





> UBUNTU Holistic Planet Repairs: The Pan-AFrikan Way Out of the World Crises
> 
> SM1, Fri, 14:30-16:00
> 
> Explanation and discussion of UBUNTU Holistic Planet Repairs as the Pan-AFrikan revolutionary way out of the crises of Maldevelopment to avert Climate Chaos and to achieve Sustainable World Development in furtherance of Global Justice. Expected outcome: planning with PRYPAC/ASASEYAAMMA guidance for UBUNTU Internationalist Solidarity Action locally, nationally and globally.



from.. http://climatecamp.org.uk/actions/london-2009/programme natch.


----------



## Balbi (Sep 3, 2009)

I'm going to keep this very brief about what I took away from Climate Camp this year.

I'm not that clued up about the climate change debate other than what has been presented to me by the media as the issue has charged up the 'popular media likes this' ladder. So when I heard about the swoop onto Blackheath I was intrigued by the aims of the camp. By not trying to pitch a thousand tents on Canary Wharf or Bishopsgate it looked like something different, and as a bit of a fluffy fluffy type - I thought I would go down.

It's seven days later now, and I've been to numerous workshops on subjects from anti-capitalism to communicating climate science. I've marched through london on the most fluffy of protests (nicking the S from the Shell Centre aside) and learned about some struggles going on around the world which would otherwise have passed me by entirely. But the most important thing i've found from this whole experience has been the opportunity to actually meet up and discuss things with people.

I'm educated, but not in some of the key stuff surrounding anti-capitalism and climate change. The last week I have talked with people from every part of the political compass from Whitechapel to Westminster. I've done it in an environment with almost no imminent threat of police intervention, or judgement based on naivety (which increasingly I find has been my situation). I've got a long list of names and numbers of people I am keeping in touch with, both local and further afield - I have an equally long list of websites and books that I can go through to seek out stuff about Climate Camp. I'm certainly a lot more sorted in terms of my knowledge of direct action, and the legal consequences of that.

So it wasn't a G20 or Drax or Kingsnorth. But for fluffy fluffy types, it was a good bit of education and practical advice on how to take things up a few notches and the opportunity to meet people either who were up those notches or who were seeking to do so. Lots of community outreach, lots of local/regional/national/international linking going on.


----------



## cesare (Sep 3, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Anyway, on the off chance that anybody's interested, AF members who attended the camp have produced a perspective paper on their experiences and the relationship between class struggle anarchists and the green movement, Climate Camp and Us.



I enjoyed reading it. Is it aimed at persuading Climate Camp participants of a change in strategy?


----------



## boskysquelch (Sep 3, 2009)

cesare said:


> I enjoyed reading it. Is it aimed at persuading Climate Camp participants of a change in strategy?



That's how I "embarced" it.


----------



## cesare (Sep 3, 2009)

boskysquelch said:


> That's how I "embarced" it.



Apparently there are three obvious ones at last count


----------



## Balbi (Sep 3, 2009)

Poor spelling is just another tool the State has employed to disempower the workers


----------



## boskysquelch (Sep 3, 2009)

Balbi said:


> Poor spelling is just another tool the State has employed to disempower the workers


bleddhi enviro_n00bz. 

niece summerary of yr Xperirantz btw ... purdy rundly wot i tinx teh Camp is all aboot meslef. innit.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 3, 2009)

these are worth a listen:

Part 1


Part 2


Part 3


best bit, climate camp liberal: Whose Harry Roberts?

everyone: He's our friend


----------



## TopCat (Sep 3, 2009)

That radio interview was great. Totally unapologetic. 8)


----------



## Balbi (Sep 3, 2009)

boskysquelch said:


> bleddhi enviro_n00bz.
> 
> niece summerary of yr Xperirantz btw ... purdy rundly wot i tinx teh Camp is all aboot meslef. innit.



Not a problem old chap, highlight of my experiences was a West Mercia Plod - drafted in to assist the Met, describing said force as 'A complete and utter beast'.


----------



## In Bloom (Sep 3, 2009)

cesare said:


> I enjoyed reading it. Is it aimed at persuading Climate Camp participants of a change in strategy?


I wasn't one of the authors, but that seems to be the general intention, to persuade Climate Campers of the merits of radical, pro-working class politics.


----------



## In Bloom (Sep 3, 2009)

boskysquelch said:


> That's how I "embarced" it.


This is why dyslexic proof readers are a bad idea 

Any others I've missed?


----------



## winjer (Sep 3, 2009)

e.g (should be e.g.), infastructure, newsheets, occuring, seperated, sustainebly, chage, exapnd


----------



## In Bloom (Sep 3, 2009)

winjer said:


> e.g (should be e.g.), infastructure, newsheets, occuring, seperated, sustainebly, chage, exapnd


Cheers, I'll fix those.

Is "newsheets" wrong then?  Should it be two words?


----------



## winjer (Sep 3, 2009)

I'd say one word is fine, but it needs two esses.


----------



## Balbi (Sep 3, 2009)

It does grate a bit as it is, but I couldn't say one way or the other. To make it utterly clear, two words would work.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 3, 2009)

Balbi said:


> It does grate a bit as it is, but I couldn't say one way or the other. To make it utterly clear, two words would work.



Your pics uploaded yet?


----------



## Balbi (Sep 3, 2009)

On facebook yes.



http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/album.php?aid=152852&id=640940995
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/album.php?aid=152895&id=640940995&ref=mf


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## durruti02 (Sep 3, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> I wasn't one of the authors, but that seems to be the general intention, to persuade Climate Campers of the merits of radical, pro-working class politics.


 i only went on the thursday and didn't return as it looked soo young (and m/c) which fitted my ( and lots of people i know) prejudices at what THIS years CC would be ( kinda suprised when TC said he liked it ) 

.. so one the one hand i am not convinced that these people can be persuaded .. surely it is meaningless unless you have some sort of hook to comprehend .. my bag these days is 'radical localism' for want of a better description and again i think the concept is probably meaningless ( and possibly quite rightly ) to young people ..

but in the other hand we all get radicalised somehow and i guess for some people it could be this event


----------



## paolo (Sep 4, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Anyway, on the off chance that anybody's interested, AF members who attended the camp have produced a perspective paper on their experiences and the relationship between class struggle anarchists and the green movement, Climate Camp and Us.



Although I'm not, and probably never will be, an anarchist (in anything other than a dreamy "wouldn't it be nice" kind of way (c) Brian  ) - I thought the piece read very well. It's coherent and I like the thoughtful and calm tone. (Perhaps, maybe unfairly, I expect anarchist stuff to be ranty.)

If I would make one change, I'd put more paragraph breaks in. It's a bit hard on the eye as it is. I'd also summarise the key questions it is raising at the top as bullets - not giving the verdicts found within, just bringing out the issues, basically so the reader can see at a glance it will cover some interesting stuff.


----------



## cesare (Sep 4, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> I wasn't one of the authors, but that seems to be the general intention, to persuade Climate Campers of the merits of radical, pro-working class politics.



I think it's a well timed piece, and I like the tone of it. Sure, there are typos and paragraphing and other things that people have pointed out, but those are cosmetic really. 

Do you think that they'll read it?


----------



## In Bloom (Sep 4, 2009)

cesare said:


> I think it's a well timed piece, and I like the tone of it. Sure, there are typos and paragraphing and other things that people have pointed out, but those are cosmetic really.
> 
> Do you think that they'll read it?


If we go around promoting it in places online where climate campers frequent, yes 

Apparently the leaflet posted earlier was fairly well recieved.


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