# campaign against welfare cuts and poverty



## Blagsta (Nov 28, 2007)

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm sick of seeing people say "why doesn't someone do something" (yes, I know actually some people are, but y'know...).

Let's do something.  I'm in south London.  What I'd like to see is ideas for tactics/strategy on this thread and to arrange an initial meeting.

Anyone up for it?  Or am I pissing in the wind?


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## Brainaddict (Nov 28, 2007)

Do you know about the London Coalition Against Poverty? Quite a new group - a bit direct actiony - don't know if that's what you're after.

http://www.hackneyindependent.org/2007_news_menu/london_coaltion_against_poverty_first_newsl.html


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## chymaera (Nov 28, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Or am I pissing in the wind?




Pissing in the wind. No-one has given a monkeys fuck about the way disabled people are being treated since Obersturmbhanfuhrer Lilley instigated the All Work Test for Incapacity Benefit.


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## jonH (Nov 28, 2007)

chymaera said:
			
		

> Pissing in the wind. No-one has given a monkeys fuck about the way disabled people are being treated since Obersturmbhanfuhrer Lilley instigated the All Work Test for Incapacity Benefit.


i got 0 fucking points


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## _angel_ (Nov 28, 2007)

I'm in Leeds but I'll do something if anyone wants. (Of what use I am ??)


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## In Bloom (Nov 28, 2007)

I'd be up for doing something around this.

I was actually thinking of trying to get a claiment's union going in Merseyside.  And then maybe after that I'll punch out Mike Tyson and climb Everest


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## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 28, 2007)

Tbh, whilst i would applaud anyone making the effort to do something (eg starting a claimants' union), I work on this all day long and can't find the enthusiasm to start campaigning on the issue when I'm out of work. It keeps me awake at night already and I need to retain my sanity. Always happy to share thoughts and opinions through this medium and would support the broader aims.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 28, 2007)

i'd plug London Coalition Against Poverty as well.

ps "Full Metal Anarchist" best tagline evar


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## Blagsta (Nov 28, 2007)

Brainaddict said:
			
		

> Do you know about the London Coalition Against Poverty? Quite a new group - a bit direct actiony - don't know if that's what you're after.
> 
> http://www.hackneyindependent.org/2007_news_menu/london_coaltion_against_poverty_first_newsl.html



Yeah I've been trying to get to their meetings for the last month or so and not making it for one reason and another.  I'm going to try my best tomorrow though.


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## Spion (Nov 28, 2007)

Is there any information anywhere on this welfare reform thing? I want to be able to make my mind up about it and the two chief carpers on the subject never seem to provide any facts


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## Urbanblues (Nov 28, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> Is there any information anywhere on this welfare reform thing? I want to be able to make my mind up about it and the two chief carpers on the subject never seem to provide any facts


http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2007/pdf/ukpga_20070005_en.pdf

As for providing facts of the impact of welfare reform on disabled people; unfortunately, we’ll only know the true devastation of the ‘reform’, once disabled people are taken off IB; once they’re forced onto JSA; or, after they’ve been pushed into jobs, despite the fact they are not able to work.

For a post mortem, one needs a corpse.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 28, 2007)

You could have a look at the SWAN website (Sheffield Welfare Action Network), or the Disability Alliance website for more info on welfare reform.


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## Spion (Nov 28, 2007)

Urbanblues said:
			
		

> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2007/pdf/ukpga_20070005_en.pdf


Is there anything a little more digestable? I'm not really on for reading 93 pages of a govt document. Has no one campaigning against this produced anything on it?




			
				Urbanblues said:
			
		

> As for providing facts of the impact of welfare reform on disabled people; unfortunately, we’ll only know the true devastation of the ‘reform’, once disabled people are taken off IB; once they’re forced onto JSA; or, after they’ve been pushed into jobs, despite the fact they are not able to work.


Oh come one. It must surely be possible to say what the measures will be and give some idea of their likely effect. I don't get IB or know anyone that does. Some people keep describing this as tantamount to the gas chambers and I'm still waiting for some decent info on it


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## Spion (Nov 28, 2007)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> You could have a look at the SWAN website (Sheffield Welfare Action Network), or the Disability Alliance website for more info on welfare reform.


OK, cool, thanks


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## Spion (Nov 28, 2007)

This is the clearest description I've found so far http://www.disabilityalliance.org/f31.htm

Does that cover all of it or is there more to this welfare reform?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 28, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> Is there anything a little more digestable? I'm not really on for reading 93 pages of a govt document. Has no one campaigning against this produced anything on it?
> 
> Oh come one. It must surely be possible to say what the measures will be and give some idea of their likely effect. I don't get IB or know anyone that does. Some people keep describing this as tantamount to the gas chambers and I'm still waiting for some decent info on it


There's a summary of the main changes implemented by the Welfare Reform Act here, in terms of the introduction of employment and support allowance.

The latest evaluation of the new capability assessment, which decides whether people will be entitled to the new benefit, indicates that the disallowance rate will increase from ~38% up to ~50%, despite an absence of evidence to show that people are receiving incapacity benefits when they shouldn't be (DWP statisticians found such low levels of fraud, that they could not measure it for incapacity benefit, such is the stringent and rigorous nature of the test of entitlement).


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## treelover (Nov 28, 2007)

Exactly, well put, that is what i have been arguing for some time, once it becomes law, as the WRA is now, it largely becomes the individuals problem and possibly a welfare rights officer. The individual wil often blame themselves, feel isolated and yes, frightened as the full force of the state bears down on them. At least bearing witness to this state of affairs is a start. Something i think the US left/liberal left where this dire system is entrenched has never done, may be wrong though.





> As for providing facts of the impact of welfare reform on disabled people; unfortunately, we’ll only know the true devastation of the ‘reform’, once disabled people are taken off IB; once they’re forced onto JSA; or, after they’ve been pushed into jobs, despite the fact they are not able to work.
> 
> For a post mortem, one needs a corpse.


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## treelover (Nov 28, 2007)

reasonable critique here


Myths of absenteeism mask the true issues to be addressed on incapacity
PAUL SPICKER

THE commentary about incapacity benefit (IB) in last week's newspapers has been overcooked. But we can't blame the press for saying Peter Hain was mounting a "drive to end sick-note Britain": that came from the Department of Work and Pensions' (DWP) media centre.

Nor can we complain about them inflating the numbers of claimants to 2.7 million. The DWP has combined the figures for recipients of IB and income support, adding nearly a million "claimants not receiving benefit" to the totals they used to report. 


http://news.scotsman.com/health.cfm?id=1856082007


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## Spion (Nov 28, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> Exactly, well put, that is what i have been arguing for some time, once it becomes law, as the WRA is now, it largely becomes the individuals problem and possibly a welfare rights officer. The individual wil often blame themselves, feel isolated and yes, frightened as the full force of the state bears down on them. At least bearing witness to this state of affairs is a start. Something i think the US left/liberal left where this dire system is entrenched has never done, may be wrong though.


It's not well put tho, because it doesn't explain precisely what this act will do. From reading these sites I'm getting that it will assess people currently getting IB to:

"find out whether you have a ‘limited capability for work’. 
find out whether you have a ‘limited capability for work-related activity’. 
carry out a ‘work-focused health-related assessment’."

and if you're placed in the 'work-focussed' group you will meet an advisor to:

"discuss your work prospects, the steps that you are willing to take to move into work and the support available to you." 

from http://www.disabilityalliance.org/f31.htm

Does that go any way to summing it up?


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## Blagsta (Nov 28, 2007)

Well I'm going to go to the LCAP meeting tomorrow (if it's on!), barring floods, earthquakes or me coming down with tonsillitis again.


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## treelover (Nov 28, 2007)

SWAN had a very sucessful meeting tonight, there will now defintely be a national conference on welfare issues in  the spring, possibly another demo,(we have had plenty) have a look at the website for the last one


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## chymaera (Nov 28, 2007)

Wouldn't this thread be better in the General Forum?


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## treelover (Nov 29, 2007)

Yes,, this is the graveyard of boards 


ask a mod, i do think the gravity of the situation merits it, but imo, then no more
welfare threads for awhile, IRAN is on the horizon now....


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## _angel_ (Nov 29, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> Yes,, this is the graveyard of boards
> 
> 
> ask a mod, i do think the gravity of the situation merits it, but imo, then no more
> welfare threads for awhile, IRAN is on the horizon now....



I've pmed you.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 29, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> It's not well put tho, because it doesn't explain precisely what this act will do. From reading these sites I'm getting that it will assess people currently getting IB to:
> 
> "find out whether you have a ‘limited capability for work’.
> find out whether you have a ‘limited capability for work-related activity’.
> ...


In theory, maybe, in practice, as many people who rely on benefits know, it can be a very different scenario. For example, more than 50% of people who appeal against decisions to refuse them benefit as the result of a medical examination go onto win their appeal, pointing at very poor decision making and evidence gathering by DWP.

Similarly, the discussion of work prospects can often be something that is little more than orders to apply for any job, no matter what the suitability, at threat of having financial sanctions applied to already inadequate benefits. I think that there are some good principles and ideas insofar as looking to be more proactive in helping people with ill health or disability to look at what they could do to move closer to the labour market, but when you have something like 500,000 vulnerable workers (according to TUC definitions), I'm not so certain that this isn't a move towards a workfare system which has the effect of pushing down wages & T&C's for all low-paid workers.


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## _angel_ (Nov 29, 2007)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> In theory, maybe, in practice, as many people who rely on benefits know, it can be a very different scenario. For example, more than 50% of people who appeal against decisions to refuse them benefit as the result of a medical examination go onto win their appeal, pointing at very poor decision making and evidence gathering by DWP.
> 
> Similarly, the discussion of work prospects can often be something that is little more than orders to apply for any job, no matter what the suitability, at threat of having financial sanctions applied to already inadequate benefits. I think that there are some good principles and ideas insofar as looking to be more proactive in helping people with ill health or disability to look at what they could do to move closer to the labour market, but when you have something like 500,000 vulnerable workers (according to TUC definitions), I'm not so certain that this isn't a move towards a workfare system which has the effect of pushing down wages & T&C's for all low-paid workers.



Was I the only person to notice this post on another thread...

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6789556&postcount=90


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## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 29, 2007)

That's quite worrying innit. Especially with the news that they're trialing voice stress analysis as well (aka lie detectors) even though some spokespeople(?) from the insurance industry has stated publicly that the software is unreliable.


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## _angel_ (Nov 29, 2007)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> That's quite worrying innit. Especially with the news that they're trialing voice stress analysis as well (aka lie detectors) even though some spokespeople(?) from the insurance industry has stated publicly that the software is unreliable.




I thought it was horribly shocking. Of course you're going to get bastards if people are paid per case they manage to stop claiming. That's just plain wrong.


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## Blagsta (Nov 29, 2007)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> That's quite worrying innit. Especially with the news that they're trialing voice stress analysis as well (aka lie detectors) even though some spokespeople(?) from the insurance industry has stated publicly that the software is unreliable.



It's not just the software that's unreliable, it's the entire concept.


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## Blagsta (Nov 29, 2007)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> In theory, maybe, in practice, as many people who rely on benefits know, it can be a very different scenario. For example, more than 50% of people who appeal against decisions to refuse them benefit as the result of a medical examination go onto win their appeal, pointing at very poor decision making and evidence gathering by DWP.
> 
> Similarly, the discussion of work prospects can often be something that is little more than orders to apply for any job, no matter what the suitability, at threat of having financial sanctions applied to already inadequate benefits. I think that there are some good principles and ideas insofar as looking to be more proactive in helping people with ill health or disability to look at what they could do to move closer to the labour market, but when you have something like 500,000 vulnerable workers (according to TUC definitions), I'm not so certain that this isn't a move towards a workfare system which has the effect of pushing down wages & T&C's for all low-paid workers.



Nail on head.  As I posted on another thread

Work is not some magical solution to people's problems. Work is pretty shit for a lot of people. The problem is that people will probably not be encouraged to find work that suits them, work they enjoy and work that isn't going to make their problems worse. In all likelihood, they'll be forced into any job to make the stats look good or they'll be put onto shitty New Deal type courses, where our tax money pays private enterprises to pretend to train people.


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## treelover (Nov 29, 2007)

Yes, Unum Provident are part of that, have a look at my thread on them to see how influential they are in all this.





> Was I the only person to notice this post on another thread...


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## treelover (Nov 29, 2007)

Of course , Hain is banging on about the 600' 000 unfilled vacancies in the economy being filled by disabled people, god know what some of those jobs are, 
escort agencies, etc?




> Work is not some magical solution to people's problems. Work is pretty shit for a lot of people. *The problem is that people will probably not be encouraged to find work that suits them, work they enjoy and work that isn't going to make their problems worse.* In all likelihood, they'll be forced into any job to make the stats look good or they'll be put onto shitty New Deal type courses, where our tax money pays private enterprises to pretend to train people.


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## treelover (Nov 29, 2007)

still think this could go in general, people will have lots of ideas.


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## chymaera (Nov 29, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> still think this could go in general, people will have lots of ideas.




I don't know about ideas, given the row going on about welfare reform at the moment in General.


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## treelover (Nov 29, 2007)

Just seen this in the New Statesman, Peter Hain justifying his shitty welfare 'reforms' in terms of contrasting his govts compassion with the tories who will just stop benefit completely, yeah right, its truly Orwellian.




> Labour and the sick note
> 
> Peter Hain
> 
> ...


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## treelover (Nov 30, 2007)

btw, if you register you can reply, lets do it, put the pressure on...


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## _angel_ (Nov 30, 2007)

It's early morning and I'm confused. I'm going to read that again later and try and work out the essential difference between what he is arguing for and how it differs from what he is arguing against because they both sound the same to me.


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## treelover (Nov 30, 2007)

Of course, it's totally Orwellian,


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## treelover (Nov 30, 2007)

dead thread?


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## Spion (Nov 30, 2007)

looks it. what are disabled etc organisations doing? are there any protests planned?


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## Blagsta (Dec 3, 2007)

So no one's interested then.  Oh well.


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## chymaera (Dec 3, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> So no one's interested then.  Oh well.




They haven't been interested for all the years I have been campaigning, so it is par for the course.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Dec 3, 2007)

Very interesting report out today from Joseph Rowntree Foundation "Monitoring poverty and social exclusion 2007"

Poverty levels in 2005/06 are the same as in 2002/03, indicating that government strategy against poverty and social exclusion pursued since late 1990's is now largely exhausted. Half of children in poverty belong to working families (which rather undermines the "work as a route out of poverty" mantra).

Pay inequality in the upper half of pay distribution is growing and overall earnings inequalities are widening. Not all those who want to work can do so and disability rather than lone parenthood is the factor most likely to leave someone workless - the authors state unequivocally that _'the ten-year old question of 'what security for those who can't (work)'_ remains unanswered.

The definition of poverty used is income poverty where a household has less than 60% of the contemporary UK median household income - in 05/06, this is £108 p/w for a single adult, £186 p/w for a couple with no kids, £223 p/w for a lone parent with 2 kids and £301 p/w for a couple with 2 kids. These sums of money are measured after Income tax, Council tax, and housing costs have been deducted so that the sum of money left is for everything else including food, heating, travel and entertainment.

Lots more to read in it.


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## heartof gold (Dec 4, 2007)

does anyone know if i have any rights i have been told i must attend a new deal course its compulsory so it seems which means benefit cut dosent it for non attendance. I dont believe in them for various reasons and would happily join in a campaign to end them. Anyone know what i can do at the moment.


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## Blagsta (Dec 4, 2007)

Your choices are - do New Deal, get a job, go on the sick or get your benefits cut.


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## heartof gold (Dec 4, 2007)

can you explain more though please about benefit cuts. How much do you lose and for how long?


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## Blagsta (Dec 4, 2007)

I don't know.  I think it's up to the jobcentre.


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## durruti02 (Dec 4, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> So no one's interested then.  Oh well.


 did you check out LCAP yet?


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## chymaera (Dec 4, 2007)

heartof gold said:
			
		

> can you explain more though please about benefit cuts. How much do you lose and for how long?




Basically you have to accept education, training or work or you starve. Arbeit Macht Frei.


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## treelover (Dec 5, 2007)

Anyone who is interested just have a look at the stuff on the disability alliance website, relating to current/future welfare strategy, one item indicated they are going to attempt to dissolve the notion of a disabled claimant!, all job centre, welfare to work, schemes etc, to be integrated with 'able bodied' so in a stroke,  disabled people disappear, arbeit macht frie indeed!   the second, (though there is lots more) is where they are taking 'best practice from, the most draconian welfare systems in the developed world, it would seem the DWP is now run not by civil servants but by revolutionaries, neo-liberal ones! all done  by the former right on Peter Hain


' The proposals are based on:

    * inclusion – helping disabled people and non-disabled people together on DWP provision wherever possible, rather than segregating disabled people purely because of their disability or by their ‘type’ of disability; '


'The DWP has also sought to learn from "best practice" internationally from the United States, Australia, New Zealand, the Netherlands and elsewhere.'


link here, scroll down

http://www.disabilityalliance.org/index3.htm


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## soulman (Dec 5, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> Anyone who is interested just have a look at the stuff on the disability alliance website,<snip>



I'm sure anyone who is interested would do that or google for what they're interested in anyway. Are you organising some kind of campaign or a whinge in for the internet loons?


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## Urbanblues (Dec 5, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> looks it. what are disabled etc organisations doing? are there any protests planned?


The big disabled organisations far from being representative of the people they purport to support, are, in my view, largely staffed by non-disabled careerists who use organisations such as Radar, Scope, Leonard Cheshire etc purely to tick the right boxes on their CVs. For the most part, these organisations are not representative of the groups they serve; in my experience, most people with spastic conditions, for instance, CP and hemi-plegia, do not belong to Scope – for that matter, they don’t belong to any of the formal disability organisations.

The only way we, disabled people, can get our voices heard above the hubbub of competing pressure groups, would be through grass roots organisations. However, organising, by its very nature a time-consuming pastime, is often outside the physical, mental and emotional capabilities of many disabled people – in short, we find day-to-day living on starvation benefits so physically, mentally and emotionally grinding; that the idea of organising ourselves into a cohesive fighting-back group is quite difficult.

Yet, we do fight back. We challenge government – I was part of a contingent from the Coalition Against the Welfare Reform Bill that met up with Anne McGuire last December – lot of fucking good that did. In the past groups like DAN have made a big impact – remember a few years ago the ‘blood’ on the pavement outside the gates of Downing Street. 

But, disability isn’t hip. It’s at the shite end of the equalities – a case of, therefore but for the grace of god go I. While the press covered the Downing Street incident; this was a one-off. Some time later, during Labour’s first Welfare Reform, I was with a group that was holding daily protests outside Parliament – yes, you could actually protest with banners, placards loud hailers etc in front of the St Stephen’s Gate entrance!

As always there were lots of press milling around; sniffing about for something to fill the emptiness of their rags. On one occasion a Times reporter stopped for a chat; and, we tried to get him interested in the issue of Welfare Reform, the taxing of IB etc. He told us he’d only be interested in doing a piece if we were willing to perform a similar ‘stunt’ to that carried out by DAN – in other words invent sensational news for his fucking rag.


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## panpete (Dec 5, 2007)

I'm willing to help in any way I can.
I am limited as I am agorophobic so cant actually get out and about, but I can help from my pc in any way.

Working for years and ignoring the extent of my depression and anxiety symptoms actually contributed to my current state.

ps I also think there are unfit workers currently working who shouldnt. Like those who dont admit they have depression/anxiety/mood issues, and who make their colleagues life a misery, by slamming around the workplace, saying "Im in a bad mood" and bullying weaker colleagues. "Out with the bastards, and onto the dole"


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## soulman (Dec 5, 2007)

Urbanblues said:
			
		

> The big disabled organisations far from being representative of the people they purport to support, are, in my view, largely staffed by non-disabled careerists who use organisations such as Radar, Scope, Leonard Cheshire etc purely to tick the right boxes on their CVs. For the most part, these organisations are not representative of the groups they serve; in my experience, most people with spastic conditions, for instance, CP and hemi-plegia, do not belong to Scope – for that matter, they don’t belong to any of the formal disability organisations.
> 
> The only way we, disabled people, can get our voices heard above the hubbub of competing pressure groups, would be through grass roots organisations. However, organising, by its very nature a time-consuming pastime, is often outside the physical, mental and emotional capabilities of many disabled people – in short, we find day-to-day living on starvation benefits so physically, mentally and emotionally grinding; that the idea of organising ourselves into a cohesive fighting-back group is quite difficult.
> 
> ...



Cheers for such a thoughtful post. I think it puts things into perspective without going down the cul-de-sac of: disabled people should be pitied/felt sorry for; or disabled people will be sent to 'death camps' or 'disappeared'.


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## Blagsta (Dec 7, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> did you check out LCAP yet?



I went to a meeting last week.  Interesting.  I wanted to go this week but I couldn't.  It's definitely something I could see myself getting involved in.


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## urbanrevolt (Dec 8, 2007)

So waht happened?


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## Blagsta (Dec 8, 2007)

There's a demo about Hackeny council gatekeeping housing on the 17th
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=231668


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## tbaldwin (Dec 10, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> I dunno about anyone else, but I'm sick of seeing people say "why doesn't someone do something" (yes, I know actually some people are, but y'know...).
> 
> Let's do something.  I'm in south London.  What I'd like to see is ideas for tactics/strategy on this thread and to arrange an initial meeting.
> 
> Anyone up for it?  Or am I pissing in the wind?



I am up for it if you PM me Blagsta...I might even be of some limited use.....


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## wee cough ed (Dec 10, 2007)

I did say, some years ago, that Leonard Cheshire "Enable the Disabled" would illuminate the path to enablement to be poorer.

It is some years since the All Work Test got me.  I was measured with a BP of 230/145 at test.  A peak flow of 230 litres per min.  And found fit for work.

So off I toddled and drew my 26 quid a week war disablement pension and nothing else.  YES .. because when I went to get dole I was disallowed for being too restricted by lung damage in the work I can seek.  

Having said that and no doubt there are genuine cases there are loads who are having the system over.  

I know a couple.  She works in a  shop 16 hours and claims tax credit and child care etc and housing benefits.  Her partner has another right to buy council house and he claims from that address .. incapacity plus full mobility allowance and carers allowance and housing benefits.

A tenant in the one house who is working and not cross reffing on benefits.

They are clearing 600 pounds a week with us buying two houses for them.

He is HGV driver now early 50s went on disability when he was 42.  Think he has to be careful not to be seen using that chainsaw felling trees.


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## wee cough ed (Dec 10, 2007)

What to do ?

Go self employed and claim tax credit.  Think about it ?  If unfortunately you are making a loss it is counted as Zero Income and the entitlement to tax credit still exists.

And its legal.


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## urbanrevolt (Dec 10, 2007)

This whole area of how working class people are treated is an absolute scandal and I think does need to be taken up  with links made with other areas of campaiging.

It would be good to hear more stories on this both the vicious reality and stories of effective collective resistance.


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## treelover (Dec 11, 2007)

More from hardman Hain on Thursday when he (again)outlines the Gov't strategy on welfare, what we are seeing is is ultimately about the end of a rights based  welfare system  in the UK. He has got DWP research to back him up, apparently nearly 41% of the British public believe there is "very little" child poverty in Britain, and that 'a strong feeling emerges that the poor have themselves to blame.' This is not surprising considering that we have so many stories about 'benefit scroungers', etc and of course the relentless benefit fraud adverts/campaigns. It stinks, yet as i have said many times, from progressives there is silence, red pepper magazine for instance has never covered the issue once.

Research shows 41% of people believe there is very little child poverty

· Findings underline challenge for ministers
· Government faces struggle to meet targets

Patrick Wintour, political editor
Tuesday December 11, 2007
The Guardian

Nearly 41% of the British public believe there is "very little" child poverty in Britain, research undertaken for the Department for Work and Pensions shows, in contradiction of official statistics which suggest more than 3 million children are in poverty. The unpublished research suggests about 52% of people think there is quite a lot of poverty.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpolitics/story/0,,2225496,00.html


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## Spion (Dec 11, 2007)

So, what to do?

* Set up claimants unions to try to show the strength of feeling against the changes with demos, protests etc
* Use this to try to influence civil servants to refuse to implement the changes
* Demand quality training and socially useful job paid for by increasing taxes on the rich


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## treelover (Dec 11, 2007)

of course, good ideas, but the momentum isn't there, have a look in your union journal and see if there is any mentions of all this, plenty in the bosses journals, human resourses journals, etc.


this is going to be a very long sticky...


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## treelover (Jan 6, 2008)

Tories announce their plans for welfare reform, its not the US Winsonsin model, but its pretty brutal, every person claiming IB would be subject to interview by private companies(paid by results!) and if found able to work, kicked off IB and lose 30.00 a week Imo, this is the benefit integrity project writ large, this was massively contreversial in 1997 , why not now, why the change?




> Cameron plans benefit system reform
> 
> Press Association
> Sunday January 6, 2008 1:38 PM
> ...


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## chymaera (Jan 6, 2008)

treelover said:
			
		

> Tories announce their plans for welfare reform, its not the US Winsonsin model, but its pretty brutal, every person claiming IB would be subject to interview by private companies(paid by results!) and if found able to work, kicked off IB and lose 30.00 a week Imo, this is the benefit integrity project writ large, this was massively contreversial in 1997 , why not now, why the change?




Heated thread about this in General.


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## treelover (Jan 10, 2008)

Would people on here like to help fund/donate towards a national conference on the issues, it won't happen without funding, hire of venue, etc, 


pm if you like..


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## goebfwai (Feb 2, 2008)

*Share concern*

I too am particularly concerned at some of the fascist rhetoric and criminalisitic allegory emerging from both Labour and the Tories surrounding the welfare state, the unemployed, the sick and disabled and the poorest and most vulnerable in society.  "Three strikes and your out" and so forth.

It seems as if we are now well and truly entering an era where policies whose potential impart is, in terms of it's potential effects, a form of heartless economic eugenics; publicly promoted even by leftist media and even worse, virtually unchallenged publicly.  These policies are also being marketed as socially acceptable, reasonable and civilised in that time honoured 'bureacracy of evil' way that the establishment and civil service mandarins have mastered over centuries the world ore.

It reminds me a little of how the Nazis tried to wipe out myriad numbers of sick and disabled citizens, with the active consent of society, the medical profession and often even carers and family. How a society treats its most vulnerable citizens is a key yardstick and moral compass about the health and direction of that society.  Any attacks against them need to be opposed swiftly and decisively.  It should be treated as a serious warning sign.  With no money to feed themselves, the permanent removal of benefits (that already fail to adequately reflect the true costs of living) from people if they decline to yield to pressure to apply or take jobs that they are not able to undertake, is in essence also a death sentence.  

Insidious targets and profit incenctives for doctors and corporate personal development flunkies to do whatever it takes to reduce claimant numbers, while lining their own pockets in the process.  A government able to play the innocent and wash their hands and claim that everything is above board and there has been fair and due process by "independent" organisations.  What is so fair and civilised about that?

I am hearing shocking stories from a number of quarters from people, some of them quite seriously ill, being ejected from incapacity benefit and then facing a cruel and barbaric fight on their hand to overturn these decisions.  It is fascinating to observe the hoops that the disabled and incapicitated are being made to jump through to obtain a relative pittance, compared to the champagne swigging ease in which countless billions are thrown at the mega-rich in state welfare in the form of corporate grants, tax cuts and concesions etc.

The withdrawal of housing, state support, medical care and already meagre benefit payments from refugees whose asylum applications have been turned down, is but yet another example of this.

It seems to me to be the philosophy of Scrooge being enshrined in global geopolitics - "decrease the surplus population". 

Were Dickens writing today, Scrooges retort about relief and charity for the poor - "are there not workhouses?" - might well indeed be "are there not public private partnership organisations?". 

I applaud these moves to set up some sort of union for disability claimants.  It is essential that claimaints organise and unite and are assisted in that process.


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## treelover (Feb 2, 2008)

Good post, one of the  new proposals is to integrate disabled people into the normal welfare system, to some that is admirable, but think on, there would be no specialist disability advisers for claimants and they would then be subject to all the rigour of the New Deal, queing up at the job centre, etc. So what happens when a disabled claimant fall over, wets themseoves, has amajor panic attack, etc, barbarism, I see many court cases ahead.

http://www.disabilityalliance.org/help2.htm


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## chymaera (Feb 2, 2008)

treelover said:


> So what happens when a disabled claimant fall over, wets themseoves, has amajor panic attack, etc, barbarism, I see many court cases ahead.




Not one JobCentre Plus where I live complies with a Disabiliy Access and Facilities Audit. (none of them even have customer toilets.)


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## _angel_ (Feb 2, 2008)

chymaera said:


> Not one JobCentre Plus where I live complies with a Disabiliy Access and Facilities Audit. (none of them even have customer toilets.)




Do any job centres have toilets for that matter? It wasn't a JCP but before it was just the DSS office I had to take a kid who had shat himself with diaorreah running down his leg out into the street because they wouldn't let us use their staff loos.

Basically they think everyone's a junkie who's gonna shoot up - there were loads of pregnant mums and OAPs who might have really been in need of a loo there (especially given the waiting times)


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## goebfwai (Feb 2, 2008)

Deplorable.


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## Equalrights (Feb 7, 2008)

Typical Govt behaviour make cock-ups then take it out on the poorest in society, as they have no direct access to the media  so can't be media darlings.


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## goebfwai (Feb 8, 2008)

*Unemployed tenants in city won’t face eviction*

Unemployed tenants in city won’t face eviction

by Gordon Thomson
JOBLESS tenants in Glasgow won't face being evicted from their homes under a controversial scheme.
The Scottish Government has condemned the idea which came from Caroline Flint, the Westminster Government's new Housing Minister.
She wants to evict jobless council and social housing tenants who make no attempt to find work...

_"Stewart Maxwell, Scotland's Communities Minister who has responsibility for housing, said: "Scotland controls its own housing policies and we have no intention of copying the UK government's headline-grabbing, draconian approach."_


(story continue below).

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/...ployed_tenants_in_city_wont_face_eviction.php


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## treelover (Feb 21, 2008)

a good summary of the welfare reforms here, though I reckon paulie t will be able to fillet it a bit!

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/02/391945.html


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## Cressi (Feb 22, 2008)

DWP means Die or Work Posse= POVERTY....its pure maths,sadly. But thats capitalism for you.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 22, 2008)

treelover said:


> a good summary of the welfare reforms here, though I reckon paulie t will be able to fillet it a bit!
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/02/391945.html


i've been busy with things but i wouldn't add much to your summary, it covers things pretty well i reckon. cheers 

there's so much detail as well as so much bluster that its sometimes difficult to keep up with it all tbf. someone i spoke to this week reckons its a deliberate tactic to just exhaust people. purnell admitted this week that introduction of ESA is primarily about getting people off IB rather than into work i.e cutting the benefits bill simply, as well as denying that himself or the government used pejorative terms towards claimants. its classic iron fist in velvet glove bullshit basically. they're introducing workfare by not calling it workfare and denying that it is workfare, even tho it is workfare essenttially.


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## treelover (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Cressy, welcome to P/P


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## treelover (Feb 22, 2008)

One of the things the labour left and the disability groups is asking is for people to get behind John McDonnell's EDM, 'attack poverty, not the poor' (see thread) and publicise it and lobby M.P's, there wasn't much we could do for a while, but now there is this and there is a Trades Council Motion which could be adapted.


btw, Paulie, praise indeed, 


phew!...


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## treelover (Feb 23, 2008)

PT, do you have a source for that?


'purnell admitted this week that introduction of ESA is primarily about getting people off IB rather than into work i.e cutting the benefits bill simply'


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## _angel_ (Feb 23, 2008)

This



> As Kevin Maguire noted in the Daily Mirror, all parties seem to be presenting ever harsher reforms with a seemingly endless 'race to the bottom'. The new ambitious Works and Pensions Secretary, James Purnell will certainly push through with zeal even the harshest of reforms. All these proposals seem rushed and ill thought out, never mind the sheer nastiness and invasiveness of the US style 'blame the poor' nature of them. Indeed, a whole new ‘welfare industry’ is being created on the strength of 13 weeks research! Of course, it won’t end there: there is also talk of tagging of certain disabled groups which would clearly have an effect on their benefits and plans for ending specialist disability employment services. *Much of the ideology behind these reforms is based on the neo-liberal notion of the 'active citizen' which is sweeping the world. Only by working or training or studying can a person be 'good' but what about those who just cannot work? *


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## _angel_ (Feb 23, 2008)

> Nick Clegg, the Lib Dem leader, has stated he would like all IB to be abolished completely.



And replaced with what? quietly bung them onto income support? or have people starving on the street?

Btw Why demonise incapacity benefit and not income support? People have actually had to pay in to claim IB as I understand it. The mantra of 'WORK WORK WORK! I work why should I pay for YOU!' doesn't quite fit when they're demonising claimants of a benefit who have had to pay NI contributions in order to qualify.


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## treelover (Feb 23, 2008)

Angel I wrote that!


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 23, 2008)

treelover said:


> PT, do you have a source for that?
> 
> 
> 'purnell admitted this week that introduction of ESA is primarily about getting people off IB rather than into work i.e cutting the benefits bill simply'


i'm afraid not. his speech is on the SMF website but the questions weren't. there was a FT journo there who i hoped would report it but i haven't seen nowt to date. hence, its useful to know that what we always thought was the case but we need to continue to concentrate on arguing the demonstrable facts for now, however frustrating that may seem.


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## treelover (Mar 6, 2008)

Good to see Nottingham Claimants Action is back again, they have been going on and off since 1997.


http://www.geocities.com/ncajsa/


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## In Bloom (Mar 19, 2008)

In case anybody's interested:


> In the last decade the government has done everything it can to make it difficult to get benefits.
> 
> If you are denied benefits it's easy to find yourself facing homelessness and debt, with no help from local councils who'd rather we just disappeared altogether.
> 
> ...


We haven't got a website together yet, that'll come later, once we're functioning properly as a local group.


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## treelover (Mar 19, 2008)

great news, are the many involved?


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## treelover (Mar 19, 2008)

Hopefully, we may see more of this


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## Imagine (May 2, 2008)

Good article about the cuts in this week's New Statesman:



> The government's declared mission is to "liberate" claimants, to bring them into its "reformed, coherent welfare state for the 21st century". It seeks to overturn a culture based on the "medical model" of illness that allows them to "drift" on to long-term benefits without realising that "symptoms, feeling unwell, sickness and incapacity are not the same" - hence the appeal of cognitive behavioural therapy, which it understands as a treatment that will talk the sick into believing they can lead normal lives.
> 
> Doctors - so often the refuge of desperate people trying to find out what is wrong with them - should as far as possible be excluded from the process. Even those working for the DWP have opinions that are "unfounded, of limited value and counter-productive", while GPs are "unaware of the importance of work, the absence of which leads to depression, poor health, higher rates of suicide and mortality, poverty, and social exclusion". (The quotations are from a 2005 study from the Unum Provident Centre for Psychosocial and Disability Research at Cardiff University, whose ideas and rhetoric infuse the reform. Unum Provident is an American firm, the largest disability insurance company in the world, which is currently in litigation in different countries for refusing to pay out on some of its policies.) A private agency has now taken over the running of its first GP surgery here, and doctors dealing with disability living allowance are advised not to invite patients to explain how their condition affects them.
> 
> ...


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## rollinder (May 3, 2008)

^ was just about to link to that article

income support's going to be replaced as well 
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/content/category/13/25/45/


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## Paulie Tandoori (May 3, 2008)

Imagine said:


> Good article about the cuts in this week's New Statesman:


See, i don't think that is a good article, and i say that somewhat disappointedlly. What is the point of it, what does it suggest we do differently? Nothing, but wring our hands and reassure ourselves that we're _thinking_ good things, even if we're doing nothing......


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## Urbanblues (May 3, 2008)

rollinder said:


> ^ was just about to link to that article
> 
> income support's going to be replaced as well
> http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/content/category/13/25/45/



I’ve just gone over the ‘Limited capability for work assessment’ and ‘notched up’ 123; this is more or less the same as when I did the ‘All Works Test’.


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## Cressi (May 3, 2008)

Well think weve seen the results of all this......DWP, CSA, Wretched Tax credits...........GB wouldnt listen...stubborn....arrogant....Im fed up with men forcing their theories on me.....up top they insist they work.....down on the ground they dont. Paperpushers.......endless forms......reforms......trendy logos with 3 col print.......all bullshit.......but most of all Im dreading ringing my dad .....a socialist of the old school......why did it go so very wrong?


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## _angel_ (May 3, 2008)

> Crucially, the reformers bracketed illness with disability. The disability lobby had long argued that "disability" was a discriminatory label imposed by society, and it was bent on removing the barriers to work that excluded those so labelled and kept them in poverty. But the bracketing brought confusions - for those with disabilities may be extremely fit (consider the disabled athlete), whereas the able-bodied can be extremely ill. *More confusion arises with conditions such as "stress", "anxiety" and "chronic fatigue" that sound trivial*. As for "back pain", how unreasonable is it to take time off sick for something best dealt with by a stiff upper lip and the odd aspirin? It is easy for those in good health to pooh-pooh such things, agreeing with the government that "Work is the best therapy".



I do think that unless people have suffered depression and anxiety there's a tendency amongst some people to simply have no idea at all what they are.

The CFS or ME sufferers get my sympathy. Fancy having to struggle to get thru everyday life and then have fuckwits who don't know what they're talking about brand you a scrounger or malingerer.


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## mango5 (May 4, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> The CFS or ME sufferers get my sympathy. Fancy having to struggle to get thru everyday life and then have fuckwits who don't know what they're talking about brand you a scrounger or malingerer.



Innit


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## treelover (May 6, 2008)

Thats a great article, maybe NL are really like Lazarus raising the dead! Professor 
Ravetz's full report on the Welfare Reform Act can be found on SWAN's website
www.swansheffield.org.uk


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## treelover (May 6, 2008)

She is a Professor, an academic, not an activist, this is good ammunition for those who are are though...


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## Cressi (May 6, 2008)

We are setting up a womans group with the help of Mind. The DAN- Disabled Peoples Direct Action Network looks very interesting. How would we go about setting up one for our area? Our MP Susan Kramer has asked some questions re: DWP and wretched tax credits in the house (TheyWorkForYou email alerts keep us informed) and please dont snigger that it is an affluent borough because it just makes living in perpetual poverty even worse. We should be getting pro-active now........or last week.

Do we just set one up ourselves? I can make a banner.


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## Cressi (May 6, 2008)

The more the merrier?











[/QUOTE]


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## e19896 (Aug 17, 2008)

*Some Members Of The D.W.P make the Gestapo look like it was having a Tea Party*

Some Members Of The D.W.P make the Gestapo look like it was having a Tea Party..


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## trevhagl (Aug 18, 2008)

Urbanblues said:


> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2007/pdf/ukpga_20070005_en.pdf
> 
> As for providing facts of the impact of welfare reform on disabled people; unfortunately, we’ll only know the true devastation of the ‘reform’, once disabled people are taken off IB; once they’re forced onto JSA; or, after they’ve been pushed into jobs, despite the fact they are not able to work.
> 
> For a post mortem, one needs a corpse.



And sadly there'll be plenty.

I have rang my MP but no reply as of yet..


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## trevhagl (Aug 18, 2008)

I will of course entertain you with the standard reply of bullshit like the one i got when i complained about PO closures.
True they do not listen, BUT it is good to embarrass them and try to make them feel guilty. People on £100,000 a year begrudging struggling people of £60pw


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## trevhagl (Aug 18, 2008)

In Bloom said:


> In case anybody's interested:
> 
> We haven't got a website together yet, that'll come later, once we're functioning properly as a local group.



Respect!!


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## trevhagl (Aug 18, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I do think that unless people have suffered depression and anxiety there's a tendency amongst some people to simply have no idea at all what they are.
> 
> The CFS or ME sufferers get my sympathy. Fancy having to struggle to get thru everyday life and then have fuckwits who don't know what they're talking about brand you a scrounger or malingerer.



This is true and i only found out about it via work, dealing with people with genuine mental problems who their neighbours would say were faking it as there's nothing visually wrong with them. people who've already had their benefits stopped and in appeal even the DWPs own panel were shocked that such cases had to get to appeal stage and were dismissed withing minutes.

Whats it gonna be like when the draconian reforms come in?


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## trevhagl (Aug 18, 2008)

e19896 said:


> Some Members Of The D.W.P make the Gestapo look like it was having a Tea Party..



Nice article but total bullshit to call New Labour anything LIKE marxists...


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## e19896 (Aug 18, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> Nice article but total bullshit to call New Labour anything LIKE marxists...



No check out people like Jack (boot boy) Straw, he proclaimed in his student days to be one along with Blunket and the like, just a refrance to The SWP Kabul in the DWP..


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## treelover (Aug 18, 2008)

I am hoping people ring the BBC complaints line about their coverage of welfare issues which is a disgrace, a new complaints precedure comes in  august and i hope to get directly to the BBC Trust.

btw, why aren't the disability charities monitoring the media over these issues.


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## trevhagl (Aug 18, 2008)

treelover said:


> I am hoping people ring the BBC complaints line about their coverage of welfare issues which is a disgrace, a new complaints precedure comes in  august and i hope to get directly to the BBC Trust.
> 
> btw, why aren't the disability charities monitoring the media over these issues.



Good on yer. But as for the 2nd part that has been discussed before, like some unions they are ran by careerists more interstested in placating the enemy and protecting their huge salaries rather than looking after those they should be looking after


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## trevhagl (Aug 18, 2008)

e19896 said:


> No check out people like Jack (boot boy) Straw, he proclaimed in his student days to be one along with Blunket and the like, just a refrance to The SWP Kabul in the DWP..



MOST of New Labour had a left wing past but like many university students went the opposite way once they got a sniff of money. These are the WORST kind of politician - you can almost respect the Tories cos they've ALWAYS been money grabbing selfish bitter cunts and never pretended to be owt else


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## DownwardDog (Aug 18, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> MOST of New Labour had a left wing past but like many university students went the opposite way once they got a sniff of money. These are the WORST kind of politician - you can almost respect the Tories cos they've ALWAYS been money grabbing selfish bitter cunts and never pretended to be owt else



I think that's the USP of the Conservatives at the moment. "We don't care about you either but at least we won't pretend to."


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## e19896 (Aug 18, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> Good on yer. But as for the 2nd part that has been discussed before, like some unions they are ran by careerists more interstested in placating the enemy and protecting their huge salaries rather than looking after those they should be looking after



Well i thought i was on my own with this thought, 4 fucking weeks i had The DWP fraud team follow me about, not due to any action of my own, other than what i call The SWP Kabul, and due to fact i have Mental Health PROBLEMS it is all so easy dismissed by friends and others as part of my problem, and it was only when i went up to one of the parked cars with a friend they began to belave me, it was only when housing benefits said they had been asked to look into my claim, it hit home..


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## trevhagl (Aug 19, 2008)

The worst thing about "fraud" investigations is if you don't like someone you can make life hell by telling the dole a pack of lies about them. My mate was accused of window cleaning yet they stopped his money before they even investigated it! he got it back in the end but he had a week having to borrow food etc


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## Cressi (Sep 1, 2008)

I was accused of fraud.....working when I wasnt. I laugh at it now but at the time it was not funny. The Jobcentre found me a part time job......promised the New Deal.....which ment No Deal......No help with housing benefits or Council Tax (£30 per week).....it was a pack of lies and broken promises.....but I duly cared for a lovely woman.......and had a stalker stalking me....so the Police followed me and the stalker to work........then the Police said there is another man following you????. A bald man with glasses????? It took the Police 3 months to track him down. He worked for the DWP but had no office.....sort of a freelance worker.......well...his name ..was Mr S Roose I reported the incident to the Suzy Llamplugh Trust because I think it is dangerous to have lone men stalking lone women.
It took me 4 years with letters and letters from the DWP but I proved them wrong. 
Trouble is I am now too scared to work............all the promises of support were crap.......in the end the whole job cost me loads.....but it was worth it as my client was a very special lady and she taught me loads. So I look at is a lesson learnt.......The DWP are not to be trusted.


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## panpete (Sep 1, 2008)

The only reason I haven't complained is because of other's futile accounts. It must be soul destroying not being answered, or fobbed off, when really concerned, or in need.
It is particularly unhelpful in mentally ill people, as stress is the last thing they need.

I have a fear (possibly biased by my own anxiety) of calls for help being ignored, lied to, or fobbed off. It makes me think of a dystopian world where sufferers are ignored or tormented and left to stew.


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## Cressi (Sep 1, 2008)

Ever since then I call them DWP the Die or Work Posse because I think they would rather you die than live.............they never helped when I was 6 1/2 stone and starving in an affluent area through no fault of my own.......they shoved me out to work........when I wasnt fit ti work......I tried ....and wouldnt let others down but all they did was rob me.......in hindsight it would have been better i I cared for free........which I continue to do. Wrecthed tax credits never worked........the whole thing was a con...................and the government used me a slave labour. It cost me to work........afterwards I never earnt a penny. I lost......money thro trying to earn. If I met Brown I would go for his throat.......the shit he has put us throoo.........none of it works despite his rhetoric.


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## treelover (Oct 20, 2008)

The opposition to the Govt's welfare reforms does now seem to be growing in the UK Labour Movement with both the 2008 TUC and Trades Council conference voting to oppose Government plans on welfare, and many LP M.Ps strongly criticising the new Green Paper. Though much of it does appear to focus on the attacks on the unemployed and lone parents, not so much disability benefits.


On Tuesday 21st October, the PCS Union is hosting a welfare reform seminar to discuss the campaign against the proposals - unanimously backed at this year's TUC. The seminar takes place at 3pm on 21st October in Committee Room 11 of the House of Commons, and is open to all. Speakers include John McDonnell MP and Mark Serwotka.


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## trevhagl (Oct 20, 2008)

The dole are a disgrace - they are not interested in helping people, just persecuting people. The poster further up who said they were lied to about help with benefits is in a common situation. They will LIE to you to get you to take a job, then complain and they will deny ever saying it.


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## bluestreak (Oct 20, 2008)

Yes, this is my experience too.  Expecially the HB cunts.  they're the worst.


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## wtfftw (Oct 22, 2008)

I was emailed this article today about welfare reform. written by someone with ME. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/oct/22/welfare-to-work-benefits


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## Awesome Wells (Oct 27, 2008)

So the great purge beigns today: a million off the sick is the war cry. 

Where do these jobs intend to be found when there are already 3 times as many looking who aren't ill.

Factor in the belief that it's easier to find work if you're in work and already the market is impossibly competitive for the few jobs that exist.


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## _angel_ (Oct 27, 2008)

drag0n said:


> I was emailed this article today about welfare reform. written by someone with ME. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/oct/22/welfare-to-work-benefits



Yes I saw that. Interesting the Guardian is just beginning to notice!

Quite where all these jobs are going to come from especially in a recession is interesting. Surely it is just complete madness?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 27, 2008)

To be fair, the Guardian has been quite good on this recently, they did a leader column that was very clear in warning against the need to take an overly punitive and/or stigmatising approach to welfare reforms (not that Brown and co necessarily listen tho). Having McNulty come in as a Minister to replace Timms clearly demonstrates to me the fact that they want a bruiser in to force though policies that are unpopular and arguably unwise so its going to get worse before it gets better.


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## ajdown (Oct 27, 2008)

The problem is, as always, the difference between those that - for medical reasons - those that can't work, and those that simply can't be bothered, or have worked out it's more cost effective to stay at home and have babies, living off the system, than having to go out and work.


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## _angel_ (Oct 27, 2008)

It's not very easy to claim any disability benefit tbh. I also post on a carers forum where carers who do 24/7 care are being dragged into job centres (sometimes by appalling rude people) and can't even arrange cover for the person they look after -- and risk losing their money.... how people are meant to work fulltime in that situation I don't know.


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## Awesome Wells (Oct 27, 2008)

how many employers are going to employ people with a spotty health record and, given the current vilification of 'scroungers', a history of benefits claiming?


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## _angel_ (Oct 27, 2008)

Awesome Wells said:


> how many employers are going to employ people with a spotty health record and, given the current vilification of 'scroungers', a history of benefits claiming?



It's quite hard to convince them your brain doesn't fall out when you've stayed at home to bring up children! And that's without a dodgy health record...


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## Awesome Wells (Oct 27, 2008)

Of course employers won't get penalised for not hiring such people, unlike the people themselves who will get penalised for not applying for work.


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## treelover (Oct 27, 2008)

The BBC News coverage was as usual, a disgrace, the first few seconds was showing 'fiddlers', etc, yet the reforms aren't about stopping fraud, then, a guy who had joy of joys gone back to work, they then had some guy from the R/W Social Market Foundation, they only gave ten seconds to someone from Mencap who had reservations, 


clealry the BBC has an agenda


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## Awesome Wells (Oct 27, 2008)

5live were very quick to use that lovely word, malingerer, while discussing this issue earlier, as they spoke to one of the overseers from the dwp.


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## treelover (Oct 27, 2008)

I 've just rang the BBC complaints service to challenge their biased and uncritical coverage of the Gov'ts welfare reforms and it is clear that the policy has changed: instead of a polite officer giving helpful guidance and listening attentively, (as is their job) they are now brusque*, say that you must hurry and then basically cut you off, its not a one off, the Trust recently introduced new complaints guidelines which facilate this system. they are evn going to have list of known 'cranks' who will be gently put off, but who is to say who is a crank?


though as Kyser notede today that may be down to the Ross/Brand storm.


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## kyser_soze (Oct 27, 2008)

TL, have you had any more luck getting peeps motivated locally? I remember you saying you'd tried when these were first announced and had been met by a wave of overwhelming apathy...


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## tbaldwin (Oct 27, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> TL, have you had any more luck getting peeps motivated locally? I remember you saying you'd tried when these were first announced and had been met by a wave of overwhelming apathy...



Lazy people too lazy to protest when people call them lazy shock!!!!! 




ooops not rearly....


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## treelover (Oct 27, 2008)

Pm'ed you


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## treelover (Oct 27, 2008)

Bugger off Baldwin


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## treelover (Oct 27, 2008)

Imo, these nasty and vindictive reforms will one day be seen in the same light as the introduction of the Means Test in the 1931 which contributed to the split in the LP, a massive stain on the party.


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## treelover (Oct 28, 2008)

Micheal White in the Guardian has written the usual hand wringing liberal guff about the (counter) reforms in todays paper.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...abour-exclusion?commentpage=1&commentposted=1


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## Cressi (Nov 1, 2008)

Nu Labour = Nu Poverty....and what worries me ..is where are they getting the so called doctors from to do the assessing? Are their qualifications displayed.......made open........and of course they must be multi skilled to deal with many ailments....so masters at physical and mental illness's, diseases and disabilities. Are they CRB checked? It just seems odd that their are lots of docs outside of the NHS capable to judge and assess.


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## Cressi (Nov 2, 2008)

We held a few group meetings but people found it difficult to attend due to heavy rain.........but as a group we have decided to go for funding for .....food parcels, hampers and vouchers. When I tapped in our very small group details in the fundfinder computer at the voluntary centre approx 928 possible funds available for our area of deprivation. So we are applying for a few. We thought practical help was a better forward.
We are also going to print a small monthly leaflet.....hand drawn with tips and info and news of any action, demo's or meetings.


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## dynamicbaddog (Nov 14, 2008)

Cressi said:


> Nu Labour = Nu Poverty....and what worries me ..is where are they getting the so called doctors from to do the assessing? .



From what I've read so far ESA claimants will be assessed by a 'health professional' from the private company ATOS.I've been looking at an ESA guide that I downloaded from a benefits advice website - the new rules sound really complicated, so much for Purnell's claim to be saving money by 'simplifying' the system.

Also no one seems to know when and how they intend to migrate existing IB claimants onto the new regime - I heard that for under 25s it could be as early as next year, but then I heard somewhere else that it may not begin until 2012


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 14, 2008)

there's a lot of good ESA info available here for free.


----------



## belboid (Nov 21, 2008)

such is the state of the recession that now even the govt advisers are saying the plans to implement the welfare to work programmes should be stopped.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7740943.stm


----------



## Cressi (Jan 23, 2009)

Department of Work and boring, grinding, relentless Poverty.


----------



## treelover (Jan 23, 2009)

> In tandem, Jobcentre Plus groups will be located in children's centres to advise parents on work. A government document says: "Many [parents] would never consider visiting a JCP particularly if their partner is already working, but may be more receptive to the services in a relaxed setting like children's centres."
> 
> A parallel scheme has already worked in health centres with Jobcentre Plus staff trained to do basic medical work, such as injections. The staff from the job centre would also advise on back-to-work strategies for people previously hard to reach. The scheme is being promoted by the work and pensions minister Kitty Ussher.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jan/23/free-childcare-purnell-benefit-reform




from the Guardian, its hard to believe but now DWP staff are acting as erstatz nurses in G.P's surgeries, isn't any professional body opposing this? they are like 'spys in the cab' for claimants. .People who have just been made redundant will get a shock when they sign on and I imagine they will be angry and confused. Purnell is one of the most powerful politicians in the UK with power over millions, plenty of interventions to be made by the left, but will they/us do so?


meanwhile, some charities are really challenging Purnells policies on welfare which are roaring ahead

Campaign Against Workfare Goes Mainstream.

http://tendancecoatesy.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/campaign-against-workfare-goes-mainstream/


----------



## Fullyplumped (Jan 30, 2009)

treelover said:


> from the Guardian, its hard to believe but now DWP staff are acting as erstatz nurses in G.P's surgeries, isn't any professional body opposing this?



If this was true - I know it's reported in _The Guardian_ but nowhere else - it would be shocking.  Imagine Fedayn wielding a needle!

I don't really think it's true, though.


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 2, 2009)

Fullyplumped said:


> If this was true - I know it's reported in _The Guardian_ but nowhere else - it would be shocking.  *Imagine Fedayn wielding a needle!*
> 
> I don't really think it's true, though.



I can sew quite well actually.


----------



## Cressi (Feb 12, 2009)

The tide is turning.......

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/minister-i-couldnt-live-on-benefits-1607237.html

A minister mumbles he could not live on benefits.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 12, 2009)

Cressi said:


> Department of Work and boring, grinding, relentless Poverty.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 12, 2009)

Had to laugh - (on the radio) heard "a professional person" who lost his job last autumn (and still hasn't found another in the midlands) whingeing that the £250 a month "handout from the government" wasn't enough for somebody like him to live on with wife, 2 children and one soon to arrive.  Diddums.  Oh how my heart does bleed.  Bet he didn't say anything about how miserly those benefits are while he had a well paid job.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 21, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


>


i sent this to everyone i work with 

they didn't even reply 

fuckers brainwashing people.....


----------



## Shevek (Apr 14, 2009)

I have bipolar disorder and in August 2007 I had a manic episode which meant I had to be hospitalised for a month. I had just finished Uni in the May and didn't have enough national insurance contributions accrued to claim IB. Because I have a partner we couldn't claim income support or housing benefit even though it takes two incomes to pay our £675 rent to our private landlord + bills. Since then I have worked in a series of dead end jobs averaging about £500 per month income. My job is hanging in the balance again now and I dont think I will be able to claim anything. I went to see the secretary of my local MP but nothing came of it.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Apr 15, 2009)

Shevek said:


> I have bipolar disorder and in August 2007 I had a manic episode which meant I had to be hospitalised for a month. I had just finished Uni in the May and didn't have enough national insurance contributions accrued to claim IB. Because I have a partner we couldn't claim income support or housing benefit even though it takes two incomes to pay our £675 rent to our private landlord + bills. Since then I have worked in a series of dead end jobs averaging about £500 per month income. My job is hanging in the balance again now and I dont think I will be able to claim anything. I went to see the secretary of my local MP but nothing came of it.


Again, shevek, isn't there an issue regarding the disparity of incomes between you and your partner.  If your income is low and you can't afford to pay half of the 675 rent, then shouldn't you put it to your partner that maybe you should consider moving to somewhere cheaper?  If there's only two of you, you should be able to get a one bed place that's less than 675 per month.

It seems as though your partner is expecting to live the lifestyle that his income affords him, completely disregarding the fact that your income does not support your contributing half shares, which is arguably putting you under a heck of a lot of undue pressure, which surely can't be good for your mental health.  (iirc, wasn't there an issue of your partner having a really finicking and expensive diet, being really insistent about what he will or won't eat, but insisting that you pay half towards the groceries, even though you can't really afford it, and you're not the one who's the fussy eater?)

It sounds as though your partner really wants to have his cake and eat it, just wants to carry on living his life regardless of the fact that you really can't keep up with his spending practices.

I really think you need to have an open and honest conversation about all the pressure that it's putting you under, that you're living in a property with a high rent, that you're on a limited income and can't afford to keep up with his spending preferences.

If he really can't make any compromises, or if he can't or won't shoulder more of the financial burden to take into account that you're partners, then maybe you ought to be asking yourself whether he's giving you the kind of respect that you deserve.

From things you've said in the past, it seems as though he's demanding that you're equal partners in terms of spending, when the reality is that you're not equal partners in terms of earning.

Your situation is much like a husband-wife partnership in that respect, where he fulfills the traditional role of 'breadwinner', he's the one with the full-time career, whereas you're in a part-time and low paid job.  I'm guessing that in such relationships, the 'breadwinner' doesn't expect or demand that their supporting partner pays a half share of everything.  I'm guessing that because you work part-time that you do a lot of things around the housework, keep on top of things domestically, which enables him to concentrate on his career.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Aug 16, 2009)

I don't know whether anybody has mentioned this, but there is a group, a national group, called The Direct Action Network.  They do some very good stuff.  I was involved with them for about 18 months, two years. Fucking amazingly well organized, when carrying out a direct action.


----------



## caravankev (Sep 24, 2009)

Cressi said:


> Nu Labour = Nu Poverty....and what worries me ..is where are they getting the so called doctors from to do the assessing? Are their qualifications displayed.......made open........and of course they must be multi skilled to deal with many ailments....so masters at physical and mental illness's, diseases and disabilities. Are they CRB checked? It just seems odd that their are lots of docs outside of the NHS capable to judge and assess.



In the late nineties i was told by the job centre that i could not sign on as i was too sick to work despite the fact that i ran a very busy charity.Eventually i saw the relevent doctor who told me that he had been brought out of retirement to do the IB assessments.
I failed that test with 13.5 points, needed 15 at that time. Appealed, which was heard in my absence as nobody had informed me about it.Got a solicitor involved who got me another appeal where i represented myself and was given 17 points and a unanimous decision in my favour.That was in 98, counts for nothing now apparently. Point is that's where the Doctors come from. And Dewhursts of course.


----------



## caravankev (Sep 25, 2009)

I would be more than willing to be part of a class action against these changes if anyone is interested, no one has mentioned the disability rights act or the human rights act in this thread. Disabled people fighting/supporting a case against the Government might have more impact than protesting.
Does anyone know of any student lawyers that might be interested in making a name for themselves because they care.And not for the money.Also surprised that the IB 104 week link rule has'nt been mentioned here. 
If you have, as in my case, previously passed the tests that got you on IB in the first place but are now being told you have been miraculously cured, then does this prove past or present medical negligence? Maybe that argument may not stand up in law but you get the idea i hope.  
Re Peter Hain, some time ago i met a man who is a great admirer of his,(i got the impression he knew him)we had an argument and he told me that he was going to tell Peter Hain about me in a threatening manner.Dunno what he was gonna tell him. I made sure that this pratt received some info on Mr Hain's past misdemeanors. A week or so later he tried to apologise but i told him to fuck off. This man, (Peters friend, allegedly) was at that time claiming benefits and working as a night security guard, cash in hand. Once boasted he had 20 grand in the bank. It pay's to know Mr Hain it seems.      Toads.


----------



## belboid (Oct 1, 2009)

Just got this in me mail - anyone know owt about it?

(apols if its already been posted)


No to Welfare Abolition
the national planning meeting

    Manchester University Students Union, Steve Biko Building, Oxford Road, Manchester, M13 9PR, rooms MR1 and MR2 
    Saturday 14th November
    Arrive 11.30am for 12 noon start. Finish 5.30pm.

* The aims: stop the implementation of the welfare reform (abolition) bill; build a network of solidarity between claimants; create links between unemployed workers and workers in the PCS

* The day: 1. Share information 2. Plan a national action 3. Build a strategy and work out how we can co-ordinate nationally

The Welfare Reform Bill is a massive attack on the disabled, single parents, unemployed workers and workers in the Department for Work and Pensions and we cannot allow it to be implemented. 

14th November is a chance for welfare and disability rights activists, members of unemployed workers' groups and trade unionists to get together, build links of solidarity and plan our struggle. If you are organising against welfare abolition or want to start doing so, please make sure people from your group come along.

We say to the government and the bosses, we do not exist for your benefit!


Free lunch will be provided

Let us know you are coming by emailing hackneyunemployedworkers@gmail.com
Contact rebecca.galbraith AT yahoo.co.uk if you want to use the free creche

Contact hackneyunemployedworkers AT gmail.com if you need transport from London

Join the email discussion list here: http://groups.google.com/group/no-to-welfare-abolition


----------



## Falcon (Oct 26, 2009)

> Free lunch will be provided


In keeping with the general sense of entitlement to something for nothing held by the prospective attendees, no doubt. A good marketer knows his audience - nice touch.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 26, 2009)

Falcon said:


> In keeping with the general sense of entitlement to something for nothing held by the prospective attendees, no doubt. A good marketer knows his audience - nice touch.


 or maybe  or maybe  or maybe 

altho actually i'll settle on 

single parents getting it in the neck again from today.....

_Gingerbread have recently completed research that followed some of the first parents to move onto Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA). The benefit rules changed recently so that most single parents whose oldest child is aged 12-15 have been moved off Income Support and onto JSA in the last few months. The changes will be affecting more parents with younger children over the next two years. 

key finding -  Before the move, parents expected to feel under considerable pressure to find work once they were on JSA. Once they were on JSA many parents did indeed feel under pressure and some were applying for jobs that would not really be suitable. In general the increase in pressure was not accompanied by more support to find a job; once on JSA many parents said that they had not had any support or advice about job hunting apart from hurried fortnightly sign-on appointments._


----------



## Falcon (Oct 26, 2009)

Paulie, I'm not much bothered which smilie, knock yourself out. In 15 years time the planet will be living with the energy it had available in the 50's, but with twice as many people on it. I realise that doesn't register with the majority, but it means global economic contraction, collapsing public health and political turmoil. From that perspective, the grievances of those who had hoped to externalise the cost of raising their family and being relieved of the burden of an "unsuitable" job, while society neglected the incredible cost and effort of preparing itself for that future, will be just one of the many absurdities of our age we will look back upon with a sense of enormous disbelief and resentment. Enjoy it while it lasts.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 26, 2009)




----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 26, 2009)

Falcon said:


> Paulie, I'm not much bothered which smilie, knock yourself out. In 15 years time the planet will be living with the energy it had available in the 50's, but with twice as many people on it. I realise that doesn't register with the majority, but it means global economic contraction, collapsing public health and political turmoil. From that perspective, the grievances of those who had hoped to externalise the cost of raising their family and being relieved of the burden of an "unsuitable" job, while society neglected the incredible cost and effort of preparing itself for that future, will be just one of the many absurdities of our age we will look back upon with a sense of enormous disbelief and resentment. Enjoy it while it lasts.


So fuck welfare and every man/woman/child for themselves eh?


----------



## Falcon (Oct 26, 2009)

> So fuck welfare and every man/woman/child for themselves eh?


I'm saying today's level of welfare support was unimaginable in the 50's, and any level will be unimaginable in the 2020's without considerable effort now. So fuck everybody in the 2020's, eh?


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 26, 2009)

why not just fuck 'em now eh Falcon?


----------



## treelover (Oct 26, 2009)

too many of these 'catastrophists' they are like some of the old Marxist fundamentalists who attacked reformism because it wasn't the full works of the master, etc.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 26, 2009)

Falcon said:


> I'm saying today's level of welfare support was unimaginable in the 50's, and any level will be unimaginable in the 2020's without considerable effort now. So fuck everybody in the 2020's, eh?


so what do you suggest then?

given, for eg, that pensions expenditure is by far the largest portion of social security expenditure? starve the pensioner? be good to hear your solutions.....


----------



## treelover (Oct 26, 2009)

> I'm saying today's level of welfare support was unimaginable in the 50's, and any level will be unimaginable in the 2020's without considerable effort now. So fuck everybody in the 2020's, eh?





Eh?, the welfare state came into its own in the 50's, its become more minimal ever since, anyway this is a thread for positive ideas, etc, go and join Carousel for the cynical stuff.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 26, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> There's a summary of the main changes implemented by the Welfare Reform Act here, in terms of the introduction of employment and support allowance.
> 
> The latest evaluation of the new capability assessment, which decides whether people will be entitled to the new benefit, indicates that the disallowance rate will increase from ~38% up to ~50%, despite an absence of evidence to show that people are receiving incapacity benefits when they shouldn't be (DWP statisticians found such low levels of fraud, that they could not measure it for incapacity benefit, such is the stringent and rigorous nature of the test of entitlement).


it's worth highlighting that my predictions re: the increased failure rates of the new test of entitlement have, sadly, been realised.

although my estimates were wildly wrong....._More than two-thirds of applicants for a new sickness-related benefit are failing in their claims, suggesting many of the 2.6 million existing incapacity benefit claimants will be forced on to a lower level of benefit when they are assessed over the next two to three years._


----------



## Falcon (Oct 27, 2009)

> treelover: the welfare state came into its own in the 50's, its become more minimal ever since


I was raised in a single parent family in the 60's. Your comment makes me laugh.





> Pauli:so what do you suggest then?


Well, how about testing current recipients, eliminating the scroungers and use the money saved to strengthen efforts to prepare for the coming changes? From your comments, sounds like we are on the right track, and the children today who are the hopeful recipients of welfare tomorrow should be relieved...


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 27, 2009)

Falcon said:


> .Well, how about testing current recipients, eliminating the scroungers and use the money saved to strengthen efforts to prepare for the coming changes? ...



FFS the level of benefits is half the size of the dole when it was brought in in 1912. Things are already desperate. Already circa 60% or more of people entering prison are on welfare. There is nothing new in this, but punishing the poor is NOT the way to go (see Loic Waquant Punishing the poor: The neoliberal government of social insecurity, Duke University press, 2009). We should be campainging for more universalism and increased levels of benefits.


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## Falcon (Oct 27, 2009)

> the level of benefits is half the size of the dole when it was brought in in 1912


One of the better kept secrets of the 1914-1918 war, only recently revealed in declassified documents, was that the British treasury and the finances of the British Empire were in fact bankrupt (by, amongst other enterprises, the welfare experiment to which you refer)





> Dear Mr.Chancellor,
> The credit system upon which the business of this country is formed, has completely broken down
> -- Letter, Sir George Parish to Lloyd George, 2 a.m. August 1, 1914


Specie payments (gold and silver bullion) were promptly suspended by the Bank of England leading directly, through the special relationship between HM Treasury and the New York banking syndicate of Morgan, to the inception of the 1914-1918 war to restore public finances through war reparations against Germany (Engdahl pp35-37).

This country is well on its way to bankruptcy again. Did you bother to look at what happened in Soviet Russia following its (petroleum crash) bankruptcy? Read Orlov and note the Soviet Union was far better prepared than we are. Are you paying attention to what is happening to the world energy supply and what that means for us? Read Greer. Have you any notion about how much putting us on a sustainable footing will cost? Read MacKay (it's free, you'll like it).  Have you any thoughts on how "increased levels of benefit" are to be funded ("taxing the rich" doesn't work any more, turns out their wealth was a hallucinated collection of IOUs that can't be converted into any physical goods or services), or should we just have another war so that the 18% of UK households who are notionally in poverty yet can still afford a TV licence can continue to watch Strictly Come Dancing?

It's time to stop sniffing the petrol fumes and wake up.


----------



## Imagine (Oct 28, 2009)

Good article in today's Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/oct/28/work-capability-assessment-incapacity-benefits


----------



## treelover (Oct 28, 2009)

If I remember rightly the Guardian supported the abolishing of Incapacity Benefit to be replaced by ESA


btw,  I wonder if folk know there was a competiton for senior DWP staff to 'name' the new benefit which replaced IB, prize was a bottle of champagne, you couldn't make it up.

this one is even better

Is Labour abolishing illness?

Alison Ravetz

Published 01 May 2008

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2008/05/work-benefit-claimants-reform


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 28, 2009)

_Former *(social security)* minister Tony McNulty is to be rebuked for his expenses claims following an inquiry and asked to repay about £13,000, the BBC understands._

funny old world innit. minister abuses the system, gets away with saying sorry. (and a more dense and pointless politician it's difficult to imagine, let alone recall)

claimant abuses the system. threatened with prosecution. benefits stopped. sometimes public opprobrium and shaming as a scrounger, a thief, a malingerer....


----------



## Falcon (Oct 29, 2009)

LOL





> He said he accepted the conclusions "in full, including the requirement to repay, with no complaint


 cf. 





> gets away with saying sorry



He has been named and shamed on the public broadcasting network. Could you be any more partial in your assessment?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 29, 2009)

nope. bloke's a cunt of the highest order. he's shameless, he's clueless, he's a disgrace. go back and read hansard to gauge his views on citizens wbo bend the rules for their own advantage and then come back with his spineless apology that he found himself forced to make today. utter utter wanker of a politician tbf, lowlife pondscum, words can't describe how lowly i view him.


----------



## Falcon (Oct 30, 2009)

I can only agree. The same can be said of the many claimant abusers that infest an otherwise worthy system. And here you are defending them.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 30, 2009)

"infest". nice use of language there


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 30, 2009)

Falcon said:


> I can only agree. The same can be said of the many claimant abusers that infest an otherwise worthy system. And here you are defending them.



How do you quantify this "many" of which you speak?
Are we talking about the substantive figures provided by the Audit Commission?
Or perhaps the self-serving figures provided by the DWP for incidences of "benefits fraud" (which also happens to include their own over-payment errors, for some reason)?
Maybe you're relying on media coverage to inform your view of "many"?
Or perhaps you've got a big enough pair of testes to acknowledge the truth that for all benefits except housing benefit, claimant abuse is low, in no instance over 5%, even at the most scabrous estimates (housing benefit being an exception, due to the fact that it isn't claimant but *landlord* abuse that drives up the fraud so markedly)?
But hey, don't let easily accessible data (you can find it all at directgov) get in the way of your ill-informed polemic, eh?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 30, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> "infest". nice use of language there



Not unexpected, though. It'll probably start ranting about "useless mouths" soon.


----------



## Falcon (Nov 1, 2009)

> Well, how would you quantify it?


 By administering a test. If, after testing, the number of legitimate claimers remains substantially unchanged then I will accept that I was ill-informed. What will you do?

No. Let me guess: if retesting returns the same number of claimants as before, you will claim that the test was fair. If it doesn't, you'll claim that it wasn't. Would that be about right?


----------



## treelover (Nov 15, 2009)

> Just got this in me mail - anyone know owt about it?
> 
> (apols if its already been posted)
> 
> ...



Did anyone go or is welfare still the lefts poor sister...


----------



## Psychonaut (Dec 5, 2009)

> 91 MPs sign motion against DLA and AA cuts – has yours?
> ....
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ne...sign-motion-against-dla-and-aa-cuts-has-yours


----------



## treelover (Dec 6, 2009)

Thats quite significant, though only 34 LP M.P's, disgusting...

oh and the fact the unionists are opposing it is good,they may have some say in a hung parliament.


----------



## williammartin (Dec 30, 2009)

ViolentPanda said:


> How do you quantify this "many" of which you speak?



I would like to know that as well, because as you quite rightly point out there are no credible statistics to back up contentions of a vast army of "scroungers".
As for the latest attack on sick and disabled people, "Employment Support Allowance" brought in, in October 2008 to replace Incapacity Benefit, (eventually), the way that is being administered is a national disgrace.
95% of people being given a "medical" by the ATOS doctors are being found fit for work, including terminally ill cancer sufferers, people with multiple sclerosis, autism suffers and a lot of other very sick and disabled people.


----------



## treelover (Dec 30, 2009)

Yes, and who is defending them? disgusting....


----------



## williammartin (Dec 30, 2009)

treelover said:


> Yes, and who is defending them? disgusting....



Not many groups or people that I am aware of, with a few notable exceptions like Benefits and Work, and RADAR. (CAB are very busy dealing with Employment Support Allowance appeals though)


----------



## okgirl (Jan 13, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> I dunno about anyone else, but I'm sick of seeing people say "why doesn't someone do something" (yes, I know actually some people are, but y'know...).
> 
> Let's do something.  I'm in south London.  What I'd like to see is ideas for tactics/strategy on this thread and to arrange an initial meeting.
> 
> Anyone up for it?  Or am I pissing in the wind?



I think it's time some welfare cuts were made.  I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on.

I most certainly will not be backing this kind of thing.

The gravy train has to end somewhere.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I think it's time some welfare cuts were made.  I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on.
> 
> I most certainly will not be backing this kind of thing.
> 
> The gravy train has to end somewhere.




fuck

off


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I think it's time some welfare cuts were made.  I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on.
> 
> I most certainly will not be backing this kind of thing.
> 
> The gravy train has to end somewhere.



i was wondering what happened to BNP trolls


----------



## okgirl (Jan 13, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> fuck
> 
> off



No you fuck off.

I know someone who sat back and watched the state pay his interest for the last twenty years enabling him to sell up and buy a house outright up north with no mortgage no worries.

Only people that work and pay their mortgages should have that luxury not  fucking spongers.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I think it's time some welfare cuts were made.  I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on.
> 
> I most certainly will not be backing this kind of thing.
> 
> The gravy train has to end somewhere.


Come back when you can string two sentences together in any kind of comprehensible format eh?


----------



## williammartin (Jan 13, 2010)

okgirl said:


> No you fuck off.
> 
> I know someone who sat back and watched the state pay his interest for the last twenty years enabling him to sell up and buy a house outright up north with no mortgage no worries.



Sorry, but if you can find me anywhere on the Department of Work and Pensions website that give chapter and verse of a benefit that was available 20 years ago until the present day to pay the interest on a mortgage I will see Elvis piloting the lead pig of a squadron of flying pigs over my home.
I would also point out no bank or building society would leave someone unevicted for 20 years if they were just getting the interest paid.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Jan 13, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> i was wondering what happened to BNP trolls


 
Goodness, you're right. I was about to accuse you of kneejerk silliness and then I looked at its previous.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 14, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I think it's time some welfare cuts were made.<snip>
> The gravy train has to end somewhere.


 

Have a look at what the current levels of Carers Allowance, Jobseekers Allowance, Income Support, and  Pensioners Credit are.  These are benefits which you seem to think are part of the gravy train.  Try living on just that amount for a short time, but you won't.  IMHO you couldn't bear it.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 14, 2010)

okgirl said:


> No you fuck off.
> 
> I know someone who sat back and watched the state pay his interest for the last twenty years enabling him to sell up and buy a house outright up north with no mortgage no worries.
> 
> Only people that work and pay their mortgages should have that luxury not  fucking spongers.



You'd rather the dole pay NOWT for his house and then he loses it and they have to pay £80 housing benefit?????


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 14, 2010)

williammartin said:


> Sorry, but if you can find me anywhere on the Department of Work and Pensions website that give chapter and verse of a benefit that was available 20 years ago until the present day to pay the interest on a mortgage I will see Elvis piloting the lead pig of a squadron of flying pigs over my home.
> I would also point out no bank or building society would leave someone unevicted for 20 years if they were just getting the interest paid.



the other day i negotiated with the Halifax on someone on JSA's behalf and the very maximum they would allow him to be on interest only payments was ONE YEAR.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story in The Sun


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 14, 2010)

Greebo said:


> Have a look at what the current levels of Carers Allowance, Jobseekers Allowance, Income Support, and  Pensioners Credit are.  These are benefits which you seem to think are part of the gravy train.  Try living on just that amount for a short time, but you won't.  IMHO you couldn't bear it.



i don't think she CARES really. It's more offensive to her that someone who's worked all their life and needs a £64pw kickback from their contributions, than it is the Queen who gets millions just to look after her horses.


----------



## williammartin (Jan 14, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> the other day i negotiated with the Halifax on someone on JSA's behalf and the very maximum they would allow him to be on interest only payments was ONE YEAR.
> 
> Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story in The Sun




Precisely, 20 year paying interest only is not going to happen.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 14, 2010)

okgirl said:


> No you fuck off.
> 
> I know someone who sat back and watched the state pay his interest for the last twenty years enabling him to sell up and buy a house outright up north with no mortgage no worries.
> 
> Only people that work and pay their mortgages should have that luxury not  fucking spongers.



look, just fuck off


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 14, 2010)

i think Griffin's recalled her....silence


----------



## audiotech (Jan 14, 2010)

Might have been Barnbrook. He's a proven liar.


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 14, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I think it's time some welfare cuts were made.  I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on.
> 
> I most certainly will not be backing this kind of thing.
> 
> The gravy train has to end somewhere.



Ahhh Bisto!


----------



## Belushi (Jan 14, 2010)

Where is the sudden influx of twats coming from?


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 14, 2010)

twatville


----------



## okgirl (Jan 15, 2010)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Come back when you can string two sentences together in any kind of comprehensible format eh?



Apart from a couple of comma's missing, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the grammar.

Not only does it make perfectly good sense but the sentiments are absolutely right too!


----------



## audiotech (Jan 15, 2010)

f
u
c
k

o
f
f


----------



## okgirl (Jan 15, 2010)

williammartin said:


> Sorry, but if you can find me anywhere on the Department of Work and Pensions website that give chapter and verse of a benefit that was available 20 years ago until the present day to pay the interest on a mortgage I will see Elvis piloting the lead pig of a squadron of flying pigs over my home.
> I would also point out no bank or building society would leave someone unevicted for 20 years if they were just getting the interest paid.



Apologies seventeen years: This person was paying the mortgage at best for a year.

In May 1992 th Social Security (Mortgage Interest Payments) Act came into effect, providing for Mortgage Interest Payments to owner occupiers on Income Support to be deducted from their benefits and paid directly to the lenders.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 15, 2010)

MC5 said:


> f
> u
> c
> k
> ...



No you!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2010)

williammartin said:


> I would like to know that as well, because as you quite rightly point out there are no credible statistics to back up contentions of a vast army of "scroungers".


There are, however, credible statistics (from the DWP and the Audit Commission), the latest being from around 2007, that can be analysed to reveal that those who are classed as "perennial work-avoiders" are about 100,000 out of the total jobless claimant population.


> As for the latest attack on sick and disabled people, "Employment Support Allowance" brought in, in October 2008 to replace Incapacity Benefit, (eventually)...


Although *theoretically* those already on long-term IB should continue to receive IB as long as they pass (or is it fail ) the assessment.


> the way that is being administered is a national disgrace.
> 95% of people being given a "medical" by the ATOS doctors are being found fit for work, including terminally ill cancer sufferers, people with multiple sclerosis, autism suffers and a lot of other very sick and disabled people.


One of the interesting things I gleaned from a letter to my MP a few years ago was that the doctors ATOS uses (and indeed those contracted to do individual medical examinations for Disability Living Allowance) do all have medical qualifications, but don't necessarily have to have been *practicing* prior to being retained to examine claimants, so among the doubtless number who are good doctors, you've got a leavening of tossers and wasters who scraped through their hospital years and then went to work for drug companies and the like. Wonderful, eh?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I think it's time some welfare cuts were made.  I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on.


Let me guess, most of them are immigrants?


> I most certainly will not be backing this kind of thing.
> 
> The gravy train has to end somewhere.



Do you get tax credits/child credits?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Might have been Barnbrook. He's a proven liar.



Maybe he's offering her a film part?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 15, 2010)

okgirl said:


> Apart from a couple of comma's missing, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the grammar.
> 
> Not only does it make perfectly good sense but the sentiments are absolutely right too!


but it doesn't.

_I think it's time some welfare cuts were made. I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on.

I most certainly will not be backing this kind of thing. _ - so you're not backing what "kind of thing"? welfare cuts, which is what you were talking about immediately before. so you don't back welfare cuts? or you do but can't explain yourself.

you know people who have been living on them for many years do you? so do i. i've worked for the last 25 years on advising people about how to seek support when things go awry and its a real pity when the sins of a few shape the policy for the many. you might want to think about that.





okgirl said:


> The gravy train has to end somewhere.[/I]


which gravy train is that? the one where you aim to maintain a flexible and fluid pool of labour to keep people in unstable work paying shit money, whilst taking vast bonuses at the expense of others....


----------



## okgirl (Jan 21, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> look, just fuck off



No you look and you fuck off


----------



## okgirl (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Let me guess, most of them are immigrants?
> 
> 
> Do you get tax credits/child credits?



We get child tax credits that do not amount to much.  You must understand that I am not against benefits far from it, I have indeed been on income support myself and hated it, I could not wait to come off it, but for some people it's an all too easy option, they get used to it.  There should be a disincentive.  

I won't tell you the type of work I'm involved with, but I know that millions of money is wasted.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 21, 2010)

okgirl said:


> We get child tax credits that do not amount to much.  You must understand that I am not against benefits far from it, I have indeed been on income support myself and hated it, I could not wait to come off it, but for some people it's an all too easy option, they get used to it.  There should be a disincentive.
> 
> I won't tell you the type of work I'm involved with, but I know that millions of money is wasted.



incapacity medical doctor? Dole supervisor?


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 21, 2010)

i think anyone who is anti welfare state should be offered a document to sign saying they will never ever accept tax credits, dole, incapacity etc .

If you really are that 'proud' then you should be willing to starve to death for the state...


----------



## okgirl (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Let me guess, most of them are immigrants?
> 
> 
> Do you get tax credits/child credits?



Why the sarcasm about immigrants? actually both.

I would come down on "our own" just as hard as immigrants.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 21, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> incapacity medical doctor? Dole supervisor?



I'm flattered


----------



## okgirl (Jan 21, 2010)

Belushi said:


> Where is the sudden influx of twats coming from?



From the same twat you came from


----------



## belboid (Jan 21, 2010)

you're his sister????


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 21, 2010)

okgirl said:


> Why the sarcasm about immigrants? actually both.
> 
> I would come down on "our own" just as hard as immigrants.



so the time you spend on income support, what would you have done if the Govt took your benefits away? Would you have just punched yerself in the face and said "damn right, serves me right for not having a job!"??


----------



## okgirl (Jan 21, 2010)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> but it doesn't.
> 
> _I think it's time some welfare cuts were made. I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on.
> 
> ...



Forgive me I thought this thread was about trying to encourage some sort of demonstration against cuts? That's what I'm against.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Maybe he's offering her a film part?



If you put yourself up for election like Barnbrook I wonder how many votes you would get???

Maybe as many as Barnbrook??? I don't think so.

You fall into that horrible category of people that automatically regard people against more immigration as BNP voters.  Not so.  I speak to people all the time and even immigrants are saying the same thing.

I am, and have always been a floating voter.


----------



## belboid (Jan 21, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I am, and have always been a floater.



corrected for you


----------



## okgirl (Jan 21, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> i think anyone who is anti welfare state should be offered a document to sign saying they will never ever accept tax credits, dole, incapacity etc .
> 
> If you really are that 'proud' then you should be willing to starve to death for the state...



What kinda of garbage is that? I pay in I demand my money back end of


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 21, 2010)

So you'd prefer to see people starve to death then? because, you know, that's what happens without a benefit system


----------



## okgirl (Jan 21, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> i think anyone who is anti welfare state should be offered a document to sign saying they will never ever accept tax credits, dole, incapacity etc .
> 
> If you really are that 'proud' then you should be willing to starve to death for the state...



Oh dear the mind boggles!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2010)

okgirl said:


> We get child tax credits that do not amount to much.


The amount doesn't matter (no benefit pays "much" in real terms, because few of them are actually linked to prices), it's that you receive them at all.


> You must understand that I am not against benefits far from it...


And yet your rhetoric is:
"I think it's time some welfare cuts were made. I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on."
Which seems to say the opposite.
If you're actually being selective about which benefits you're talking about, then at least have the sense to say what you disagree with and why, rather than making dumb generalisations.


> I have indeed been on income support myself and hated it, I could not wait to come off it, but for some people it's an all too easy option, they get used to it.  There should be a disincentive.


Those "some people", by which I take you to refer to the small amount of "perennial work-avoiders", will always exist, but they're an insignificant minority cost-wise. It would be better, and more profitable/preventive of fraud, to pay attention to benefit fraud, particularly organised fraud by criminal gangs and Housing Benefit fraud by landlords, rather than whining about the small amount (in comparison) sucked up by a hundred thousand-odd work-avoiders.


> I won't tell you the type of work I'm involved with, but I know that millions of money is wasted.


Every employer I've ever worked for, from the army through the Civil Service to the private sector, has had the same problem. It's generally been an issue of systems failure (i.e. the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing) rather than deliberate fraud or money being wasted on "undeserving" causes, though.

IMO it's easy to blame "scroungers", "immigrants" and the socially-stigmatised. It's not so easy to ask yourself *why* politicians (of whatever party) are so keen for you to believe that a particular group or groups are "guilty" and should be punished over and above anyone else.
It's called "scapegoating", and it's usually a ploy to get you to look the other way while the politician bends you over and sticks his cock up your arse.


----------



## Blagsta (Jan 21, 2010)

okgirl said:


> What kinda of garbage is that? I pay in I demand my money back end of


You're a fucking idiot. Fuck off


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2010)

okgirl said:


> If you put yourself up for election like Barnbrook I wonder how many votes you would get???


Ah, but I wouldn't put myself up for election, because unlike Mr. Barnbrook (or any other party politician for that matter) I'm not a preacher for a cause. I'm not trying to sell snake oil.


> Maybe as many as Barnbrook??? I don't think so.


Well, we'll never know, will we?


> You fall into that horrible category of people that automatically regard people against more immigration as BNP voters.  Not so.  I speak to people all the time and even immigrants are saying the same thing.


Interesting assumption, marred only by the fact that you're completely wrong.
Why would I "automatically regard" someone who was anti-immigration as a member of the BNP? That'd be a rather foolish thing to do unless I already knew their position on at least a dozen other points of politics.
Perhaps *you* fall into that horrible category of people who automatically  believe that they can infer the character of a person from a single point of information? 


> I am, and have always been a floating voter.


Ah, what political wonks unflatteringly refer to as a "turd", which are also known as "floaters", I believe.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> So you'd prefer to see people starve to death then? because, you know, that's what happens without a benefit system



Or, at least, without a minimally-assured social welfare system.


----------



## williammartin (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Or, at least, without a minimally-assured social welfare system.



Which we no longer have in Britain.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 21, 2010)

okgirl said:


> What kinda of garbage is that? I pay in I demand my money back end of



So do lots of people i've met but thanks to the right wing tabloids scaremongering, thousands if not millions of genuinely ill people and ppeople who've paid NI contributions all their life are being denied what they're due.

The government (and certainly not the tabloids) no longer care whether someone who has had their money stopped has paid NI or is seriously ill. It is now a blanket assault on anyone claiming benefits - hit first ask questions later. If they appeal, they appeal, if not, they starve and "who cares"


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2010)

williammartin said:


> Which we no longer have in Britain.


I think this depends on perspective.
From a "service user" perspective I'd most definitely agree that given the amount of "holes" in the "safety net" that people are slipping through, what with payment stoppages, payment failures, poor claim-handling, dismal medical examination, penalisation on whim etc, we don't currently have even the minimally-assured safety net that the Poor relief system provided 100 years ago.
From a neo-liberal governmental perspective, though, the "safety net" still exists in way too solid a form to allow it to stand, hence the manipulation of the media to project discourses centred around themes of "scroungers" and "undeserving claimants" living it up suckling on the government tit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> So do lots of people i've met but thanks to the right wing tabloids scaremongering, thousands if not millions of genuinely ill people and ppeople who've paid NI contributions all their life are being denied what they're due.


Not just that, Trev, whole generations of people were indoctrinated to believe that claiming back what they'd paid in was akin to some form of moral dereliction. I felt *incredibly guilty* when I first claimed DLA, even though part of the reason I ended up claiming it was due to serving my country. 
It took my wife and I *three years* to talk my dad into claiming DLA, and most of his generation and my generation are like that. The government (and in fact all governments since Beveridge) have made a mint out of people being too proud to demand what's rightfully theirs.


> The government (and certainly not the tabloids) no longer care whether someone who has had their money stopped has paid NI or is seriously ill. It is now a blanket assault on anyone claiming benefits - hit first ask questions later. If they appeal, they appeal, if not, they starve and "who cares"


The government hopes that fewer and fewer people care, that some kind of neo-Victorian settlement separating the "deserving" from the "undeserving" poor can be reached that shifts the burden of cost back primarily onto communities and helps prevent any sort of thoroughgoing class and/or community cohesion.
The best way to stop us fighting them is to convince us to fight among ourselves.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not just that, Trev, whole generations of people were indoctrinated to believe that claiming back what they'd paid in was akin to some form of moral dereliction. I felt *incredibly guilty* when I first claimed DLA, even though part of the reason I ended up claiming it was due to serving my country.
> It took my wife and I *three years* to talk my dad into claiming DLA, and most of his generation and my generation are like that. The government (and in fact all governments since Beveridge) have made a mint out of people being too proud to demand what's rightfully theirs.
> 
> The government hopes that fewer and fewer people care, that some kind of neo-Victorian settlement separating the "deserving" from the "undeserving" poor can be reached that shifts the burden of cost back primarily onto communities and helps prevent any sort of thoroughgoing class and/or community cohesion.
> The best way to stop us fighting them is to convince us to fight among ourselves.



Not only that but the rules arenow so complicated and stress inducing that many people just don't even bother. My mate has lost 2 jobs , once he had redundancy and once he had an inheritance to fall back on so he just didn't put himself thru the stress of claiming


----------



## audiotech (Jan 21, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> So you'd prefer to see people starve to death then? because, you know, that's what happens without a benefit system



The freedom to starve is not really an option in developed nations. Historically, a poor law and workhouses are methods used to administer and control. These methods are of course resisted.

Pick a pocket, or two?


----------



## williammartin (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think this depends on perspective.
> .



My perspective is the sheer number of people being refused benefit or having to wait months for it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2010)

williammartin said:


> My perspective is the sheer number of people being refused benefit or having to wait months for it.



Well precisely. It's classic oppositional "us versus them" politics, where, as usual, they hold all the high cards.
I suspect that even bad publicity on the level that the Benefits Integrity Project gained aren't going to shift the politicians on this, especially as they can excuse their behaviour via the need to make savings, even when those savings (i.e. via job cuts) are directly responsible for some of the more egregious welfare cluster-fucks of recent times.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well precisely. It's classic oppositional "us versus them" politics, where, as usual, they hold all the high cards.
> I suspect that even bad publicity on the level that the Benefits Integrity Project gained aren't going to shift the politicians on this, especially as they can excuse their behaviour via the need to make savings, even when those savings (i.e. via job cuts) are directly responsible for some of the more egregious welfare cluster-fucks of recent times.



sad but true. Classic example of BULLIES. They're poor, they can't fight back. But if we showed any humanity the media will have us....


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 21, 2010)

I felt incredibly guilty the first time I attempted to sign onto the dole, (without success) and viewed it as something "shameful"


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 21, 2010)

MC5 said:


> The freedom to starve is not really an option in developed nations. Historically, a poor law and workhouses are methods used to administer and control. These methods are of course resisted.
> 
> Pick a pocket, or two?




one of my friends went into a village over here and saw kids running round half clothed playing with a hoop and a stick, straight out of the nineteenth century. i quite regularly see beggars with what llook like appalling injuries, deformed hands, etc with their hands out for a bit of money, selling pretty much everything they have basically 


there's a (minimal) welfare state here in moldova but it doesn't really work very well and even if people have jobs they don't have enough to live on. the "middle classes" are frequently that way only because they are working in two full time jobs. 

public sector services, what we'd think of public sector stuff anyway, the upkeep of parks, council stuff - is often organised companies like fucking Orange Telecom ffs. I fucking despair at the news coming out of the UK tbh 

given the (often induced) decline of just about every viable industry in the UK during the last 30 years, i fear for the place i really do


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 22, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I felt incredibly guilty the first time I attempted to sign onto the dole, (without success) and viewed it as something "shameful"



this is what the govt and media friends aim for.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 22, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> one of my friends went into a village over here and saw kids running round half clothed playing with a hoop and a stick, straight out of the nineteenth century. i quite regularly see beggars with what llook like appalling injuries, deformed hands, etc with their hands out for a bit of money, selling pretty much everything they have basically
> 
> 
> there's a (minimal) welfare state here in moldova but it doesn't really work very well and even if people have jobs they don't have enough to live on. the "middle classes" are frequently that way only because they are working in two full time jobs.
> ...



that will be the UK in 3 years time. They are already stopping income support for parents with kids who turn 12, leaving them to beg on JSA and satisfy the same conditions as other JSA claimants ie take any job or else...


----------



## okgirl (Jan 26, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> The amount doesn't matter (no benefit pays "much" in real terms, because few of them are actually linked to prices), it's that you receive them at all.
> 
> And yet your rhetoric is:
> "I think it's time some welfare cuts were made. I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on."
> ...



My views are based on my experiences and people that I know. You are wrong about the rhetoric too, one can be for cuts in benefits and still be an advocate for them but not all.  Benefits are too easily given and in some cases are too generous.  I admire the Irish leader recently that said they would have to cut child benefit. When times are hard it calls for tough measures FOR ALL and not just the tax payer!


----------



## okgirl (Jan 29, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> You're a fucking idiot. Fuck off



You talk bollocks! go take a long jump off a short pier.


----------



## okgirl (Jan 29, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ah, but I wouldn't put myself up for election, because unlike Mr. Barnbrook (or any other party politician for that matter) I'm not a preacher for a cause. I'm not trying to sell snake oil.
> 
> Well, we'll never know, will we?
> 
> ...



No it isn't! What a vivid immagination you have?  all parties evolve and have done for years.  I vote for whichever policies are right for me at that time.  At the moment I have no faith in any of the three main parties and will probably abstain or vote for one of the other fringe parties.


----------



## Psychonaut (Jan 29, 2010)

okgirl said:


> I admire the Irish leader recently that said they would have to cut child benefit. When times are hard it calls for tough measures FOR ALL and not just the tax payer!



You do know what the standard dole payment is in Ireland right? 

204 euros.

thats £177, nearly treble UK levels.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 31, 2010)

Psychonaut said:


> You do know what the standard dole payment is in Ireland right?
> 
> 204 euros.
> 
> thats £177, nearly treble UK levels.


she doesn't know her arse from her elbow...


----------



## Wolveryeti (Jan 31, 2010)

Psychonaut said:


> You do know what the standard dole payment is in Ireland right?
> 
> 204 euros.
> 
> thats £177, nearly treble UK levels.


AFAIK the Irish don't get housing benefit which makes the comparison much less favourable.


----------



## terratech (Mar 3, 2010)

Invitation to Unemployment Movement.

We would like to advise every one concerned that the unemployment movement website is open for those who are interested in creating a movement to protect themselves from welfare reforms. Our aim is to create a national movement from the ground up not connected to political parties or organisations, unions or ngo`s. 

What we provide are resources to socially network, blog and discuss issues in a forum and are not so arrogant to believe the website is a polished or a finished item and so will be relying on new members ideas and suggestions.

 For us claiming any benefit is a Right and not charity; it is enshrined in Law as the right to life. We have nothing to be ashamed of, we are not spongers, we not criminals or deviants, we are unemployed because of the economic incompetence of a few.

We look forward to your visit and interest at http://unemploymentmovement.com 

If you have any difficulty joining please contact us with the contact form or you can read our FAQ which may point to the problem.


----------



## treelover (Mar 3, 2010)

Is this going to have a 'physical' presence?


----------



## terratech (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi Treelover....we very much desire for the unemployment movement to have a 'physical' presence`. Our first objective thoe is to become recognised and grow interest/membership. With the websites built around social networking effectively this will work hand in hand with membership growth as at its centre is Group involvement/start-up.


----------



## Falcon (Mar 31, 2010)

You do know, don't you, that the country is £800 billion in debt? That we've no idea how to fund the £213 billion pension gap? We have no idea how to pay the mushrooming elderly care bills? We've no idea how to deal with the lack of tax receipts from a shrinking number of people of working age to keep the schools  and basic services running? Everyone was rather hoping the rich would pay for all that, except the liabilities are so huge there isn't enough to do so even if you bankrupted them. 

I think you need to brace yourself for a disappointment ...


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2010)

Funny then that the welfare state was created right after the second world war, when debt as a proportion of gdp was even higher than it is now, in fact hundreds of times higher, (butchers posted a graph which is on another thread) also that in the states, social spending programs such as the new deal were created during the great  depression, you know, that period of time when the us dollar was virtually valueless. 


I totally agree that people need to be helped to work where possible, but to do that there actually needs to be job opportunities created rather than lambasting everyone for not working and then not providing any solution to the problem of unemployment. how exactly are we meant to come out of recession this way, when there is so little in the way of skilled industry to provide for peoples futures.


----------



## Falcon (Apr 7, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Funny then that the welfare state was created right after the second world war, when debt as a proportion of gdp was even higher than it is now, in fact hundreds of times higher, (butchers posted a graph which is on another thread) also that in the states, social spending programs such as the new deal were created during the great depression, you know, that period of time when the us dollar was virtually valueless.


Not really. If your income was going to double every 10 years for the next 40 years, then double again in the next 30 years, you could afford a very nice mortgage right now. Sadly, we never paid the mortgage off, in fact we increased it. Our income is about to halve every 15 years. What would you do ?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2010)

the people who started the welfare state didn't know that income was going to double every 10 years (which for many people, it didn't anyway)


----------



## Falcon (Apr 7, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> the people who started the welfare state didn't know that income was going to double every 10 years (which for many people, it didn't anyway)


I refer to energy income, not financial income. There was a general expectation that peace and prosperity would provide the growth necessary to support the scheme. The only uncertainty was _by how much_ it would rise (spectacularly, as it turned out), not _whether_ it would rise. 

Most people (including, I suppose, most on this thread) don't even think about it. Many who will witness the death of the welfare state (and a lot of oil dependent commercial activities, like aviation) don't know that the energy income upon which it depends is going to start halving every 15 years. 

It will halve anyway.


----------



## belboid (Apr 7, 2010)

oh god, thick tory cunt tries to destroy another thread with his Peak Oil gibberish


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2010)

you can't predict the future with that degere of certainty.


----------



## Falcon (Apr 7, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> you can't predict the future with that degere of certainty.


There is something richly ironic about someone who is so suspicious of anything to do with capitalism swallowing capitalist oil sector propaganda so effortlessly. We have spent millions of pounds on disinformation to ensure you think so - oil company shares are based on estimates of 30 year profits, and will collapse the moment the market realises what is happening. Sadly - you can.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2010)

I'm not "so suspicious of anything to do with capitalism", there are a lot of good things about capitalism tbh.

and who's "we"?


----------



## treelover (Apr 25, 2010)

*Corporate Watch on the 'unemployment business'*








CW have brought a very important and useful document on all the different companies benefiting and making truly vast profits from NL's and soon to to be the Tories welfare 'reforms' including stuff on A4E and yes the Sally Army who plan to roll out 30 hour cheap labour schemes complete with 'motivational' speakers to encourage the unemployed, etc into the right attitude. 




http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=3572

http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=3572


----------



## CH1 (May 10, 2010)

*Welfare to Work*

*Welfare to Work on ESA*
Just in from my interview with "Melissa" NO SURNAME ALLOWED at the Ingeus training establishment at 5th floor Hannibal House, Elephant and Castle Shoping Centre London SE1.

I had taken the precaution of downloading the Ingeus accounts from Companies House (attached to this post)

Melissa did not really understand my question when I asked her why the company had made a transfer payment to Australia of £1.7 million in 2007, and £3.3 million in 2008 - greater than the staff wage bill in both cases.

This is clearly the worst type of  PPP - 100% + mark-up on staff costs!  Why is the blessed JobCentre Plus, quoted by Gordon every week in Prime Minister's Questions, not taken in-house, thus saving 50% of the cost????

And why are a Queensland based company even able to rip off the British government?  Queensland is a funny place.  They had an anti-immigrant senator who was virtually illiterate for a while.  I bet the Ingeus staff at Elephant and Castle have not been told that!  (They are mainly black)

Fortunately as I am "in touch" with both the psychiatric service (SLAM) and the Brixton Job Centre DEA (Disability Employment Adviser), Melissa decided she would recommend I was not ready for work, and when I was the DEA could help me do my "action plan".  Phew!  A narrow escape from 5 weeks of pulverising boredom being taught how to apply to be a Wetherspoons barman etc etc.

Quote from the attached accounts:  "Ingeus Europe is one of the leading providers of Welfare to Work services in the UK, France, Germany and Sweden."

Also:  "Credit risk - the company has contracts with related agencies, and therefore is considered to have minimal credit risk"

The dividend last year to the shareholders was £1.4 million - just shy of the wage bill in itself.

These sort of people are in a similar league to Bernard Madoff in my view.

Can Cameron/Clegg sort this one out please, like Boris has sorted out Tube Lines - by buying the company and closing it down!!! 

Final note: ALL the assetts of the company are mortgaged on debenture to HSBC (Australia) Limited - so tough if you thought the Job Centre would get the computers!


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## CH1 (May 10, 2010)

*Attachments are missing*

I did load the attachments.
They are pdf files - maybe incompatible with this board.
If anyone DOES want the accounts, if you send me a personal message, with your email address, I will email them.

Thank you.


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## moon23 (May 22, 2010)

Falcon said:


> You do know, don't you, that the country is £800 billion in debt? That we've no idea how to fund the £213 billion pension gap? We have no idea how to pay the mushrooming elderly care bills? We've no idea how to deal with the lack of tax receipts from a shrinking number of people of working age to keep the schools  and basic services running? Everyone was rather hoping the rich would pay for all that, except the liabilities are so huge there isn't enough to do so even if you bankrupted them.
> 
> I think you need to brace yourself for a disappointment ...



I'm sure their banners and petitions will change all this.


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## shagnasty (May 26, 2010)

this maybe of interest

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/10159717.stm

could it be the tide turning or just another load of bollocks


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## Paulie Tandoori (Jun 1, 2010)

Civil servants pay revealed, here's the top dogs at the DWP and what they receive. I don't think this included expenses, which would also be paid on top. Leigh Lewis's pay is the equivalent to 2,979 weeks worth of JSA at current rates, that's 57 years worth of JSA......

Sir Leigh Lewis  Permanent Secretary £195,000 - £199,999 

Hunada Nouss Finance Director £165,000 - £169,999 

Joe Harley IT Director General & Chief Information Officer £245,000 - £249,999 

Chris Last HR Director General £180,000 - £184,999 

Mel Groves Project Director, Welfare & Wellbeing £175,000 - £179,999 Left DWP 30/4/2010 

Stephen Holt Director of Change Management £160,000 - £164,999 

Bill Gunnyeon Director of Health Work and Wellbeing, Chief Medical Adviser and Chief Scientist £155,000 - £159,999


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## shagnasty (Jul 27, 2010)

Are they starting to get the jitters

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jul/27/benefits-health-test-review

I imagine what is scaring them is stories of people with real disabilities being found fit for work


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## dynamicbaddog (Jul 27, 2010)

shagnasty said:


> Are they starting to get the jitters
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jul/27/benefits-health-test-review
> 
> I imagine what is scaring them is stories of people with real disabilities being found fit for work



The transfer of IB claimants to ESA begins in earnest next April and they are probally worried about where they are going to find the cash for all the appeals from ex IB claimants being deemed fit for work.
I'm glad they are at least starting to see some  common sense rather than blindly following the Daily Mail 'scroungers' line (just a few months ago the DM were reporting that only 1 in 10 IB/ESA claims  are genuine)


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## treelover (Jul 29, 2010)

even if it just some 'tinkering' it comes to something when it is the Tories who acknowledge there is something fundamentally wrong with ESA, NL wanted to tighten it up even more, (and i think still do.)The authoritarianism of NL was/is obscene, they should take a long hard look at themselves. it will get worse when the DLA tests come in, as someone on CIF noted many people have been moved out of the institutions and only survive becasue of DLA and masses of care, the Condems are going to realise just how expensive it will be to 'reinstitutionalise' many of these people when it all goes belly up.


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## treelover (Jul 29, 2010)

> There are people out there making areal killing from targeting disabled people on benefits and not just the obvious DWP contracted bullyboys and henchmen.
> 
> In mental health a charity called the Centre for Mental Health has just made a bit of a comeback , the charity used to operate under the name Sainsbury Centre for Mental Health and was very close to the Labour Government, indeed it helped it set up NIMHE, and was instrumental in making it increasingly difficult for people with mental health or learning difficulties to access activities services that were stable. The Centre pushed for services to rotate around training and employment - not quality training and employment for people fit , able and desperate for work, but just crap one size fits all provision cobbled together around the Centre's plan to 'get millions of people off benefits and into work'. .
> 
> ...



from Guardian CIF, BTL

this is very revealing, people with M.E are very aware of the influence of Sainsbury and his centres, it also shows the hypocrisisy of ministers like Grayling, they know compulsion, harrassment doesn't work with disabled people, but they must satisfy the DM crowd.


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## shagnasty (Jul 29, 2010)

These organisations ,charties and governments want to act like scum ,but do not like publicity that shows them up for what they are.The more voices we can get to speak against the better.The hypocrisy of the indy and guardian opposing these measures now is breathtaking


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## dynamicbaddog (Jul 29, 2010)

Autism campaigners  have launched a petition against  cuts being made to benefits and the proposed assessments that will be carried out on children and adults who are in receipt of Disability Living Allowance  and Employment Support Allowance . Please show your support.
http://actnow01.web.officelive.com/default.aspx


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## Paulie Tandoori (Jul 29, 2010)

i posted this on a nother thread but its worth repeating.

i went to a meeting on tuesday with dwp and the civil servants said that they are both pondering about how they can help people who need to move i.e changinng schools for their kids was one example they used, as well as how they're going to deal with the massive rise in homelessness that will accompany their "reforms"

they looked ambarassed tbf to have to try and justify such shit policies. we need war on the streets against this cos it's all out assault on the poor basically.


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2010)

FWIW, the government has started an independent review into the medical test (WCA) for ESA. Anyone can submit evidence - details are here:

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/work-cap-...r-evidence.pdf


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## Paulie Tandoori (Jul 30, 2010)

_independent_ my arse!

the bloke whose carrying it out was asked what he thought "fit for work" actually meant and he completely ducked the question. he's well-meaning i'm sure but let's not pretend that the WCA is anything but a tool to move lots of people from "incapacity" benefits and onto jobseeker's allowance, where they'll find their HB cut by 10% immediately they move benefits.

this government has no compunction whatsoever about cutting incomes of poor people and making them homeless. i'd expect people to be on the streets and protesting, trouble is they'll be on the streets and homeless innit?


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## Red Paul (Aug 4, 2010)

Who voted for the torys and them that did not vote should be taken of benefits the working class i have spoken to who voted tory i am to shocked, I do not belive poeple they must be sadistic.
"Inevitably, the bourgeoisie and petty bourgeoisie will give expression to their own ideologies."


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2010)

On Radio 4's "You and Yours" today, they had Professor Malcolm Harrington, the bloke who's been lined up to conduct the review of the Work Capability Assessment. He rolled out the usual _schtick_ about how he's neutral, but oddly, after being faced with plenty of evidence of poor WCAs being carried out. There was a cracking example of a woman who'd been medically retired from the NHS (who used ATOS for the medical) after several spinal surgeries, being found fit for all work by an ATOS examiner who wrote on the report that the back problems she mentioned didn't exist. Fortunately for the woman, her medical record and the multiple surgical scars on her back showed that the examiner was a liar. 
How did Harrington react? He trotted out the "one bad apple" _schtick_. 
Malcolm, old son. There's a couple of decades-worth of evidence about how poor some of the scum ATOS (and their predecessors) are at doing their job, which is why everyone from disability rights organisations to select committees has spent those two decades demanding that the scum do a proper job of examination rather than concentrating on maximising throughput so that maximum income can be garnered.


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## treelover (Aug 10, 2010)

I think more and more we are seeing what are basically prejudices institutionalised particulalry by a certain class of people


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## dynamicbaddog (Aug 10, 2010)

Emma Harrison of A4E is on the telly again  this evening with yet another series.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/who-knows-best
What has become of C4 lately? Why do they keep giving this dreadful woman airtime?


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## treelover (Aug 10, 2010)

@ DBD

I think more and more we are seeing what are basically prejudices institutionalised particulalry by a certain class of people


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## _angel_ (Aug 10, 2010)

Red Paul said:


> Who voted for the torys and them that did not vote should be taken of benefits the working class i have spoken to who voted tory i am to shocked, I do not belive poeple they must be sadistic.
> "Inevitably, the bourgeoisie and petty bourgeoisie will give expression to their own ideologies."


 

I don't understand this post, but are you accusing people of not voting for letting this happen -- who are we supposed to vote for to stop this? Because Labour began all this crap.


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## Zabo (Aug 10, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> I don't understand this post, but are you accusing people of not voting for letting this happen -- who are we supposed to vote for to stop this? Because Labour began all this crap.



I share your confusion for it was indeed Labour that started all this including using sharks like Experian et al.

Anybody who voted in the last election, excluding principled independents  are cunts and deserve all that's coming to them and you can trust the tories to deliver it by the barrow load.


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## Red Paul (Aug 10, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> I don't understand this post, but are you accusing people of not voting for letting this happen -- who are we supposed to vote for to stop this? Because Labour began all this crap.


 
Women died for you to vote. Don't complain. If you voted you have a right to complain I must say I do not disagree with you. I to have disdain for right-wing politics.


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## _angel_ (Aug 10, 2010)

Red Paul said:


> Women died for you to vote. Don't complain. If you voted you have a right to complain I must say I do not disagree with you. I to have disdain for right-wing politics.


 
I'm still confused. Who am I meant to have voted for to stop all this-- what has women dying got to do with the fact there is no one to choose from?


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## stethoscope (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm sorry but the 'if you didn't vote then it's your fault/you can't complain' line is such a load of bollocks. I'm amused by the jump into the sexist blaming tool though ('Women died for you...'). Oh, and do I see some anti-working class sentiment there also Red Paul?

If none of the main parties represent your beliefs then why should you do so? A choice between neo-lib right cunts, neo-lib rightish cunts, neo-lib who fucking knows day by day cunts. The parliament as it stands, none of really deserve a vote anyway - the political system is corrupt.


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## Streathamite (Aug 10, 2010)

Falcon said:


> You do know, don't you, that the country is £800 billion in debt? That we've no idea how to fund the £213 billion pension gap? We have no idea how to pay the mushrooming elderly care bills? We've no idea how to deal with the lack of tax receipts from a shrinking number of people of working age to keep the schools  and basic services running? Everyone was rather hoping the rich would pay for all that, except the liabilities are so huge there isn't enough to do so even if you bankrupted them.
> 
> I think you need to brace yourself for a disappointment ...


Simple. Slam shut all those tax avoidance schemes, hit offshore finance hard, sweep up all the tax (a 12 fugure sum i'm told) which should have beern claimed by HMRC but hasn't, for one reason and another, make income tax more steeply progressive, cancel trident, sell all our shares in those naughty banks at a HUGE profit (as we could do, starting right now, providing it's done tranche by tranche), cut the huge expense of thwe police's bureaucratic superstructure (and some of that of the NHS, tbf) increase CGT on all second home, non-owner-managed business assets, legalise spliff (thereby turning an £800m hit on police/courts budgets into a c.£700m earner for HMRC)....there's a huge list, and |I wasn't even trying>
We are NOT broke as a nation, there's just too much wealth in too few hands, and they keep getting away with murder - as ever


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## Red Paul (Aug 11, 2010)

stephj said:


> I'm sorry but the 'if you didn't vote then it's your fault/you can't complain' line is such a load of bollocks. I'm amused by the jump into the sexist blaming tool though ('Women died for you...'). Oh, and do I see some anti-working class sentiment there also Red Paul?
> 
> If none of the main parties represent your beliefs then why should you do so? A choice between neo-lib right cunts, neo-lib rightish cunts, neo-lib who fucking knows day by day cunts. The parliament as it stands, none of really deserve a vote anyway - the political system is corrupt.


 Did they not? I can go back from the start of the industrial revolution. Working men hunged for you and me.
  I do see you point and well put, sure you can find some shit to vote for, for the sake of them who have gone before us, and give all?


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## _angel_ (Aug 11, 2010)

Why should we 'find some shit to vote for' how does that help people who 'died for the vote'. Do you really think any of them would have voted for what we have on offer today - I doubt it I think they'd be spinning in their graves to see all the progress go back.


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## Red Paul (Aug 11, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> Why should we 'find some shit to vote for' how does that help people who 'died for the vote'. Do you really think any of them would have voted for what we have on offer today - I doubt it I think they'd be spinning in their graves to see all the progress go back.


 
They die, hunged, sacrifice life, incarceration, and torture. I find it incongruous a enlighten person such as you are saying it, [ are you winding me up ]. you mischievous lady.


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## _angel_ (Aug 11, 2010)

Red Paul said:


> They die, hunged, sacrifice life, incarceration, and torture. I find it incongruous a enlighten person such as you are saying it, [ are you winding me up ]. you mischievous lady.


 
Who should I have voted for? Seriously??


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## Falcon (Aug 11, 2010)

Streathamite said:


> there's a huge list, and |I wasn't even trying


Almost everything on your "huge" list (with the exception of Trident) pre-supposes economic "business as usual" i.e. there will continue to be sufficient surplus income to tax, shares in banks will be more valuable than toilet paper, second homes (and even first homes) will not crash in value, etc.

Without an expanding energy supply, non of those things are possible. The energy supply is beginning to contract. A very large number of people you have in mind are about to wake up to the reality of negative equity in property and pension schemes secured on expectations of future growth that will never realise. A large number of banks that were only viable under conditions of positive equity amongst their clients are only remaining solvent because the government is printing money.

It's an understandably difficult thing to grasp, but this is not "business as usual", and the tired old "soak the rich" nostrums are archaic. It's a little bit harder than that.


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## dynamicbaddog (Aug 13, 2010)

Did anyone else watch the Who Knows Best programme with Emma Harrison & Ray Lewis the other night? It was'nt as cringeworthy as I thought it would be. However I stilll think presenting an issue such as  unemployment like it's some sort of gameshow really out of order.
http://www.scotnetwork.com/business/reality-tv-jobfinding-shows-just-arent-realistic


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## Streathamite (Aug 13, 2010)

Falcon said:


> Almost everything on your "huge" list (with the exception of Trident) pre-supposes economic "business as usual" i.e. there will continue to be sufficient surplus income to tax, shares in banks will be more valuable than toilet paper, second homes (and even first homes) will not crash in value, etc.
> 
> Without an expanding energy supply, non of those things are possible. The energy supply is beginning to contract. A very large number of people you have in mind are about to wake up to the reality of negative equity in property and pension schemes secured on expectations of future growth that will never realise. A large number of banks that were only viable under conditions of positive equity amongst their clients are only remaining solvent because the government is printing money.
> 
> It's an understandably difficult thing to grasp, but this is not "business as usual", and the tired old "soak the rich" nostrums are archaic. It's a little bit harder than that.


except....the share prices of all the major banks are now back to 2007 levels: the govt were going to increase CGT in that category to 40%  anyway, but bottled it: decriminalising spliff is piss-easy to do (the govt are too scared of the tabloid crucifixion following in its' wake), concerted action by major western govts (plus india, japan, malaysia etc) could easily crack down on the outrage that is offshore finance, and there IS £120 BILLION that could be reaped by more assiduous tax collection and cracking down on loopholes.
It is *never* a bad time to 'soak the rich', but now is _surely_ the best time, when times are hard and it could provide the greatest practical relief; the scandal of the wortld is the huge amount of obscene wealth in too few hands, and the more redistribution there is now, the better for everyone except a handful of selfish parasites.


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## dynamicbaddog (Aug 18, 2010)

Even the guy who helped design the changes to sickness benefits  is admitting there are serious problems. He says the way the system is pushing claimants with health issues  onto JSA   is 'counterproductive'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8705000/8705256.stm


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## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 18, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> Even the guy who helped design the changes to sickness benefits  is admitting there are serious problems. He says the way the system is pushing claimants with health issues  onto JSA   is 'counterproductive'
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8705000/8705256.stm


Gregg is a well-known pal of Brown so its hardly surprising that he's now critical tbh.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 19, 2010)

Just been looking at the directgov site so I can download and print off a DLA form that I'll be filling in for someone else when I noticed that they also have a pdf file entitled "can I get disability living allowance?".
It has the usual "if you answer yes to question one, go to question 2" bull, but it's the final question, q12, that has me riled up. here's what it says:


> 12.
> Do any of the following apply to you?
> 
> You need help with dialysis at home or in a minimum care unit at least twice a week where you do not receive help from hospital staff.
> ...



What a stinking pile of shit designed to discourage legitimate claimants from submitting a claim!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 19, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just been looking at the directgov site so I can download and print off a DLA form that I'll be filling in for someone else when I noticed that they also have a pdf file entitled "can I get disability living allowance?".
> It has the usual "if you answer yes to question one, go to question 2" bull, but it's the final question, q12, that has me riled up. here's what it says:
> 
> 
> What a stinking pile of shit designed to discourage legitimate claimants from submitting a claim!



What?  What the fuck's that supposed to mean?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 19, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just been looking at the directgov site so I can download and print off a DLA form that I'll be filling in for someone else when I noticed that they also have a pdf file entitled "can I get disability living allowance?".
> It has the usual "if you answer yes to question one, go to question 2" bull, but it's the final question, q12, that has me riled up. here's what it says:
> 
> 
> What a stinking pile of shit designed to discourage legitimate claimants from submitting a claim!


i know. there was a recent pilot, which presumably this is the outcome of, which was designed to "prevent pointless claims" or some such nonsense. as a welfare rights adviser, our fall back position is always, make the claim and get a decision, so at least you know. this is effectively designed to put people off claiming basically and quite outrageous imo, when you have ~£16b of unclaimed benefits every year!


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## _angel_ (Aug 19, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just been looking at the directgov site so I can download and print off a DLA form that I'll be filling in for someone else when I noticed that they also have a pdf file entitled "can I get disability living allowance?".
> It has the usual "if you answer yes to question one, go to question 2" bull, but it's the final question, q12, that has me riled up. here's what it says:
> 
> 
> ...


 Fucking hell, what on earth is that? That would stop just about anyone with a severe physical disability claiming, just because they had limbs that they couldn't use properly - or at all.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 19, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> Fucking hell, what on earth is that? That would stop just about anyone with a severe physical disability claiming, just because they had limbs that they couldn't use properly - or at all.


 

Well you'll just have to go to work then won't you.

Cunts


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What?  What the fuck's that supposed to mean?



It means "don't bother claiming unless you're a double amputee or so fucked you're likely to kark soon, you plebian scum".
It's total bullshit, but the worst thing is it'll *directly* discourage people from claiming something they're entitled to.

I'm writing (post and fax) to my MP and asking him to take this up with the appropriate minister. Can I suggest that others do the same? This piece of black propaganda shouldn't be allowed to stand!


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2010)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i know. there was a recent pilot, which presumably this is the outcome of, which was designed to "prevent pointless claims" or some such nonsense. as a welfare rights adviser, our fall back position is always, make the claim and get a decision, so at least you know. this is effectively designed to put people off claiming basically and quite outrageous imo, when you have ~£16b of unclaimed benefits every year!


It's fucking despicable, and yet again playing on the ingrained reticence of people to claim what they might view as "charity" or a "handout". If I hadn't filled out claim forms for people I know, they would've bought in to bullshit like that "checklist" and not bothered.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> Fucking hell, what on earth is that? That would stop just about anyone with a severe physical disability claiming, just because they had limbs that they couldn't use properly - or at all.



Bullshit, isn't it?


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## _angel_ (Aug 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bullshit, isn't it?


 
Do we actually know that they aren't planning to make that the new 'stringent' criteria tho? 

on the subject of complaining to the government, one of their own reports describes DLA in terms that make it look as if it is a benefit only paid out to unemployed people. :x


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> Do we actually know that they aren't planning to make that the new 'stringent' criteria tho?


Nope. for all we know, that could be their intention to do exactly that.


> on the subject of complaining to the government, one of their own reports describes DLA in terms that make it look as if it is a benefit only paid out to unemployed people. :x


Which is, of course, a bag of arse.


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## TAE (Aug 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> If no, you are not likely to qualify for DLA.


 
They very clearly 'forgot' about people with terminal cancer ... or something .. because I had no problem getting it.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 22, 2010)

TAE said:


> They very clearly 'forgot' about people with terminal cancer ... or something .. because I had no problem getting it.


Quite. It's a pretty blatant attempt at a "scare tactic" so that even more people will forego claiming than already do.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 22, 2010)

TAE said:


> They very clearly 'forgot' about people with terminal cancer ... or something .. because I had no problem getting it.


terminally ill people have, rather scarily, been found _not_ to have a limited capability for work under Employment and Support Allowance assessments, quaintly called the Work Capability Assessment. needless to say, they, and ~65% of appellants more widely, have been winning appeals against these flagrantly incorrect decisions. Needless to say, the government proposes cutting funding for legal advice services whilst similtaneously proposing plans which are ridiculous against a "scroungers" media storm. quite shameful tbf. there are any number of improvements to services that could be held up, from improved staff training, improved strategies that aim to enhance, rather than reduce, take-up of entitlements, progressive use of rules that allow people the time and space to work when they can, and be sure of support when they can't.


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## dynamicbaddog (Sep 6, 2010)

Got an e-mail just now with a link to this blog 
_Campaigning against the government's distressing war on disabled benefit claimants_

http://wheresthebenefit.blogspot.com/
ain't had a chance to read thru it all yet but looks like it might be worth bookmarking


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## Flavour (Sep 8, 2010)

my god i hate nick robinson. ive just seen him on the bbc news asking people would they rather see the cuts in public services or benefits, and people were apparently saying 'benefits', but it's totally fucking retarded. if you cut benefits, crime will increase, stress on public services will increase (and no more money will be spent on them, they just wont be cut 'as much'), and if you cut public services, this creates unemployment, ergo, more spending on benefits!!

FUCK OFF NICK ROBINSON

FUCK OFF NICK CLEGG

FUCK OFF FUCK OFF FUCK OFF

I WANT TO BLOW UP A BANK


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## dynamicbaddog (Sep 9, 2010)

Szare said:


> my god i hate nick robinson. ive just seen him on the bbc news asking people would they rather see the cuts in public services or benefits, and people were apparently saying 'benefits',


yeah every time I listen to  phone -in shows on the radio etc there's always people ringing up being very anti benefits.
 I guess it's because wages/working conditions are so shitty that a lot of people in employment mistakenly see those on benefits as having an easy life at their expense. I  don't know how we can get round this enormous problem  and  win back support for the welfare system amongst the general public


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## frogwoman (Sep 10, 2010)

Szare said:


> my god i hate nick robinson. ive just seen him on the bbc news asking people would they rather see the cuts in public services or benefits, and people were apparently saying 'benefits', but it's totally fucking retarded. if you cut benefits, crime will increase, stress on public services will increase (and no more money will be spent on them, they just wont be cut 'as much'), and if you cut public services, this creates unemployment, ergo, more spending on benefits!!
> 
> FUCK OFF NICK ROBINSON
> 
> ...


 
Scabbed on several BBC strikes.


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## _angel_ (Sep 11, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> yeah every time I listen to  phone -in shows on the radio etc there's always people ringing up being very anti benefits.
> I guess it's because wages/working conditions are so shitty that a lot of people in employment mistakenly see those on benefits as having an easy life at their expense. I  don't know how we can get round this enormous problem  and  win back support for the welfare system amongst the general public



I am not convinced they're representative, that's what these right wingers want you to believe. How many people with opposing views a) get the same air time and b) even ring in radio phone ins, let's face it most people that do that are quite mad! I heard one bloke say everyone under the age 26 should be in the army!!!! Another said the govt should pay everyone's private health insurance because it would be cheaper than the NHS! Utterly insane.


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## Mungy (Sep 13, 2010)

looking at the anti benefits groups on facebook and some of my "friends of friends" views on benefits and unemployment, there is a strong anti benefit sentiment throughout society. They are being drip fed this poison and they are embracing it. the poor are the new terrorists


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## dennisr (Sep 15, 2010)

Mungy said:


> the poor are the new terrorists



they were the original terrorists' mate and always have been the target


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## Mungy (Sep 17, 2010)

dennisr said:


> they were the original terrorists' mate and always have been the target


 
true enough. i was just being facetious.


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## rioted (Sep 23, 2010)

Red Paul said:


> bollocks ...If you voted you have a right to complain...bollocks


If you voted, you have NO right to complain. You choose to get in the ring, you can expect to get punched.


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## Streathamite (Sep 27, 2010)

Protest at CONEL: College of Haringey, Enfield & North East LondonPROTEST against the CUTS!

Wednesday 29 September, 12.30 – 1pm

outside the college, Tottenham Site
(Tottenham Centre
The College of Haringey, Enfield and North East London
High Road
London
N15 4RU)

The government is planning massive cuts in education:
25 and 40% over 4 years from the Adult skills budget 
10-25% from the 16-18 budget 
UP to 80,000 jobs and 800,000 places could be lost!


Join the UCU to Defend Jobs and Education!

Organised by UCU for European TUC Day of Action against the cuts

Please, anyone who can make it, please be there. 2010 is the year to stand up and be heard. THis is your kids' future these bastards are fucking with


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## trevhagl (Oct 3, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> yeah every time I listen to  phone -in shows on the radio etc there's always people ringing up being very anti benefits.
> I guess it's because wages/working conditions are so shitty that a lot of people in employment mistakenly see those on benefits as having an easy life at their expense. I  don't know how we can get round this enormous problem  and  win back support for the welfare system amongst the general public


 
that is basically it - and ignorance


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## trevhagl (Oct 3, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> I am not convinced they're representative, that's what these right wingers want you to believe. How many people with opposing views a) get the same air time and b) even ring in radio phone ins, let's face it most people that do that are quite mad! I heard one bloke say everyone under the age 26 should be in the army!!!! Another said the govt should pay everyone's private health insurance because it would be cheaper than the NHS! Utterly insane.


 
i think a lot of such people are odious loners with no friends , no partner because no one will put up with them . The phone in host is their only friend. These are the creeps at work who grass up their workmates, scab during strikes etc, kiss boss arse


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## TAE (Oct 4, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> I  don't know how we can get round this enormous problem  and  win back support for the welfare system amongst the general public


The germans have a word which translates as "social insurance" and that's how I've always seen the whole setup. It's not "hand-outs" but rather you pay your contributions when you can and then get help when you need it.


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## trevhagl (Oct 5, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Scabbed on several BBC strikes.


 
you do surprise me


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## trevhagl (Oct 5, 2010)

TAE said:


> The germans have a word which translates as "social insurance" and that's how I've always seen the whole setup. It's not "hand-outs" but rather you pay your contributions when you can and then get help when you need it.


 
or in the UKs case you pay national insurance you get fuck all back unless you are really really determined


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## frogwoman (Oct 5, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> you do surprise me


 
I'm talking about nick robinson here just in case anyone gets the wrong idea


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## _angel_ (Oct 7, 2010)

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/consultations/

The DWP want you to tell them what you think about conditionality here. Surprisingly, just about every post has been well thought out and considered that I've read (obv no one's told the Daily Mail brigade yet - can't be long though).


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## trevhagl (Oct 8, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I'm talking about nick robinson here just in case anyone gets the wrong idea


 
aye we got you, fucking Bear from Bo Selecter creepy cunt


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## dynamicbaddog (Oct 11, 2010)

Pilot scheme to reassess Incapacity Benefit claimants launched today in north-east Scotland and Burnley 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11510726


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## trevhagl (Oct 11, 2010)

dynamicbaddog said:


> Pilot scheme to reassess Incapacity Benefit claimants launched today in north-east Scotland and Burnley
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11510726


 
sounds like what they and New Labour have been doing for the last few years only harsher ie try to cut the figures down, spend thousands on appeals, and lose


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## Imagine (Oct 13, 2010)

At his first PMQs Ed Miliband has just pledged support for the ConDems on DLA and sickness benefits cuts "as these reforms (sic) need to be done".


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 13, 2010)

Imagine said:


> At his first PMQs Ed Miliband has just pledged support for the ConDems on DLA and sickness benefits cuts "as these reforms (sic) need to be done".


tbh, that's hardly surprising, given the fact that labour put the framework for such "reforms" in place in the first instance anyway.


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## treelover (Oct 13, 2010)

At his first PMQs Ed Miliband has just pledged support for the ConDems on DLA and sickness benefits cuts "as these reforms (sic) need to be done". 


Are you sure?, DLA hasn't been cut yet and there have been no announcements on changes to DLA yet


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## TAE (Oct 13, 2010)

If it is true then I agree with the  "  " !


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## _angel_ (Oct 13, 2010)

Imagine said:


> At his first PMQs Ed Miliband has just pledged support for the ConDems on DLA and sickness benefits cuts "as these reforms (sic) need to be done".


 
What is the point of an opposition that doesn't oppose anything?


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## treelover (Oct 13, 2010)

he opposed the middle class benefit cut though...


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## Imagine (Oct 13, 2010)

treelover said:


> At his first PMQs Ed Miliband has just pledged support for the ConDems on DLA and sickness benefits cuts "as these reforms (sic) need to be done".
> 
> 
> Are you sure?, DLA hasn't been cut yet and there have been no announcements on changes to DLA yet



From Hansard:



> *Edward Miliband*: I thank the Prime Minister for that answer and for undertaking to keep the House informed. He has our full support on the issue.
> 
> Let me turn to the issue of benefits and say to the Prime Minister that we will work with him on his reforms to disability living allowance and to sickness benefits, because they are important reforms and they need to be done.
> 
> http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmtoday/cmdebate/02.htm#d2e731


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## _angel_ (Oct 14, 2010)

I emailed my MP anyway, but considering she's climbing up the greasy pole and has a job with the DWP I'm not setting my hopes up too high.


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## trevhagl (Oct 14, 2010)

Imagine said:


> From Hansard:


 
looks like the 5 minutes of optimism is over then, fuck


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## treelover (Oct 15, 2010)

It looks like benefits and welfare are going to be decimated to pay for the pupil premium and other 'derserving welfare' choices.


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## _angel_ (Oct 17, 2010)

treelover said:


> It looks like benefits and welfare are going to be decimated to pay for the pupil premium and other 'derserving welfare' choices.


 
This is weird because it looks like they might be both the same groups of people - kids on free school meals getting extra help - good but then they take it away with housing benefit and other benefit caps off those same people. (Take it with one hand then give back a tiny amount again)


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## treelover (Oct 17, 2010)

going to school= taking opportunities so deserving poor


claiming means tested benefits=scrounging so undeserving poor


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## treelover (Oct 17, 2010)

'The Department for Work and Pensions is also planning to name and shame offenders in their local areas. Tomorrow it will start by releasing two examples of people found guilty of fraud. One is Sean Christopher Hill, who claimed £10,000 in benefits by saying he was too sick to work. In fact, he had started working as a doorman and later became a nightclub bouncer.He was ordered to repay the money and carry out 200 hours community service.'


This is getting medieval, once upon a time it was the fraud officers who were 'named and shamed'

and no I am not defending this guy, but these measures brought in by the millionaire Banker Freud stink..


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## trevhagl (Oct 17, 2010)

treelover said:


> 'The Department for Work and Pensions is also planning to name and shame offenders in their local areas. Tomorrow it will start by releasing two examples of people found guilty of fraud. One is Sean Christopher Hill, who claimed £10,000 in benefits by saying he was too sick to work. In fact, he had started working as a doorman and later became a nightclub bouncer.He was ordered to repay the money and carry out 200 hours community service.'
> 
> 
> This is getting medieval, once upon a time it was the fraud officers who were 'named and shamed'
> ...


 
how they gonna do this? I thought they were already named and shamed in the court case? Are they now gonna be forced to wear some leper type insignia?
And will the govt be liable if some right wing fruitcakes attack them in the street?


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## treelover (Oct 18, 2010)

Alan Johnson has just said LP will not oppose the Condems welfare reforms ''[as they follow exactly what they, (NL) were planning...'

what is the point of the LP?


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 18, 2010)

treelover said:


> Alan Johnson has just said LP will not oppose the Condems welfare reforms ''[as they follow exactly what they, (NL) were planning...'
> 
> what is the point of the LP?


 
it's a great chance for everyone to unite against the real Tory scum - wasted. Lily livered establishment whores scared to rock the boat - just keep their gravy train going and who cares about the poor in society?


----------



## TAE (Oct 19, 2010)

treelover said:


> what is the point of the LP?


Given N.L. policies, many have been wondering that for a long time.


----------



## TAE (Oct 23, 2010)

Today's Dilbert is quite funny:


----------



## Prince Rhyus (Oct 23, 2010)

Went along to the protest today in Cambridge. From a cynical perspective, it went like this:

1) Gathered at point A
2) Speeches as point A on how 'orrible the Government is
3) Marched towards point B
4) Loud people with louder speakers chanting repetitive stuff
5) Fluffy people handing out fliers
6) Arrive at point B - the Guildhall
7) More chanting, and loudspeaker messages about sending a message to the Council (despite it being the weekend when no one is there)
8) Move into the main hall
9) ELEVEN speeches from various people about how 'orrible the Government is and what we must do
10) Everyone goes home

From a cynical perspective, the usual suspects were there:

"Would you like to buy a copy of...
- The Socialist Worker?
- Socialist Resistance?
- The Socialist?
- The Weekly Worker?"

"Would you like to join...
- The Socialist Workers' Party?
- The Socialist Party?
- The University's Marxist Society?
- The University's Socialist Society?"

Sorry chaps - I thought I came along to a protest, not a paper sale.

What was nice to see was:
- The number of different unions represented
- The diversity of people who were there - including non-usual suspects
- The number of people who turned out at short notice
- A couple of the speakers who were very good at public speaking and/or made the case for alternatives
_
Now...what next?_

Now, part of me was thinking: "Meh...it's Party for Communistic Socialism vs the Socialistic Party for Communism vs the Communistic Socialist Party on what we should do in order to create the ideal conditions for the overthrow of the imperialistic capitalistic classes responsible for this disgraceful, disgusting, diabolical assault on the historical hard won rights and freedoms of the working classes."

But another part of me was thinking:

"Actually, this is quite a good start. Although I may not agree with a number of people on a variety of things, or may be critical of their past actions, they are still going to get screwed over by these cuts as I am."

The number and diversity of people who might be inclined to get involved I think is a huge opportunity for trade unions in particular to bring in the wealth of skills and talents of their membership (i.e. not just their regular activists) to help things along. Some will have strengths in different places than others. For example some will be excellent public speakers, others will be very good at face-to-face persuasion. Some may be very talented artists (good for banners and placards) while others may have a way with words. Some may be computer wizards who can get websites up and running - and maintained, while others will be very good at ensuring the logistics of meetings, workshops and events are sorted so everything runs smoothly. Others may be able to put on alternative events - music sessions, pub quizzes, comedy nights - if we are going to get out and about, lets have some fun at the same time!

This is where guides such as http://libcom.org/organise, http://www.campaignstrategy.org/index.php or http://www.schnews.org.uk/diyguide/idiotsguidetomeetings.htm can be useful for those of us not familiar with campaigning. 

So...that's a little flavour of the constructive suggestions I'm going to be looking to contribute in the "how do we do the stuff we need to do" sessions that are going to be taking place in my neck of the woods in the near future. What other ideas do others have?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 24, 2010)

nice one, food for thought indeed and some very interesting thoughts and opinions and ideas.


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## Prince Rhyus (Oct 24, 2010)

One other thing to add: Let's use the Freedom of Information Act and the Environmental Information Regulations to put the spotlight on "due process"

For every single area that is being cut, the following should have been done:

- Equalities Impact Assessment
- Economic Impact Assessment
(Where applicable) Environmental Impact Assessment

It's normally good practice when options are on the table to undertake a risk scoping exercise. So for every area that is being cut, via http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/ (because then everyone can see the answers!) feel free to submit FoI requests asking for:

- Confirmation that the impact assessments have been carried out
- Publication of those impact assessments
- Confirmation that risk scoping exercises have been undertaken
- Publication of a summary of the results of that exercise
- A list of the top 10 risks to the delivery of those cuts. (These will indicate who will be affected the worst)


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## Prince Rhyus (Oct 24, 2010)

(Basically if departments are aware of risks, are shown publically to be aware of risks and are shown not to have done anything about it, things get messy. Ditto if they are shown not to have undertaken reasonable actions to identify, assess and mitigate any risks associated with given policies).


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## treelover (Oct 27, 2010)

briefing document by the TUC on welfare reforms

http://www.tuc.org.uk/mediacentre/tuc-18647-f0.cfm

and apparently they had a protest outside the DWP on monday, no media coverage

'Yesterday (Thursday) four case studies protested outside the DWP in London and in Strictly Come Dancing style held up '0 points' cards awarding Atos Origin Ltd zero points for the service received. Pictures are available from the press office.'


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## treelover (Oct 28, 2010)

the liberal media seems to be turning against the latest welfare cuts/reforms, even the ESA medical is being scrutinised now.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/public-accounts/2010/10/anti-benefits-160-media


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## frogwoman (Oct 28, 2010)

good


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## dynamicbaddog (Oct 29, 2010)

treelover said:


> the liberal media seems to be turning against the latest welfare cuts/reforms, even the ESA medical is being scrutinised now.
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/public-accounts/2010/10/anti-benefits-160-media


 
about bloody time too


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## Prince Rhyus (Oct 31, 2010)

http://taxpayersalliance.org/news/we-dont-have-a-blueprint

- Should we have a "blueprint" or is the lack of one (and the lack of a "central committee" trying to run stuff SWP-stylee) a strength?


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## treelover (Nov 2, 2010)

new group i think, but no national network of any kind

http://sunderlandwelfareaction.wordpress.com/


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## Prince Rhyus (Nov 4, 2010)

Some really interesting nuggets from the Commons Public Administration Select Committee which may be of interest for PCS members/ civil servants at http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmpubadm/uc555-i/uc555i.htm


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## treelover (Nov 11, 2010)

PM, the radio 4 programme has just covered Smiths draconian welfare cuts, etc(based on Nl's) it was balanced and incisive, well worth listening to...


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## Barking_Mad (Nov 17, 2010)

What a clueless twat.



> *Look and learn from across the Irish Sea
> *
> A generation ago it would have seemed ridiculous to go to Ireland for economics lessons. Not any more
> 
> ...



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article733821.ece


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## treelover (Nov 17, 2010)

I think outside of tabloid land there is growing anger against the welfare cuts, but most anti-cuts groups don't seem to focussing on the issue.


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## frogwoman (Nov 17, 2010)

they are I think mate.


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## Prince Rhyus (Nov 20, 2010)

This is surprisingly catchy!

"We all know politicians like their lies
 Big ones, little ones, porkie pies!"


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## treelover (Nov 23, 2010)

The Harrington Review is out now which looked at, in many peoples view, the brutal medical test for disabled claimants to see if it is fit for purpose


http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/forum?func=view&catid=13&id=37107


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## Phil Aychio (Nov 25, 2010)

Latest list of student occupations here: www.reallyopenuniversity.org


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## Imagine (Nov 25, 2010)

Some good coverage coming from the Daily Mirror:



> *More evidence that Atos Origin cheats benefits claimants*
> By Nick Sommerlad on November 25, 2010 12:00 AM in Health
> 
> We reported last month how far too many genuinely sick people are being unfairly denied benefits and told to look for work.
> ...


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## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 25, 2010)

atos have just signed a 3 year £300million contract to carry on carrying out WCA's.

good coverage don't mean jack-shit.


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## Will2403 (Dec 9, 2010)

Prince Rhyus said:


> This is surprisingly catchy!
> 
> "We all know politicians like their lies
> Big ones, little ones, porkie pies!"




Cracking! I love it. Stuck it up on ukuncut.

Anyone in West Suffolk area, there's a protest happening in Bury on Saturday.
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=108579725880364

Meet at 9:20 at the benches in The Arc outside The Apex.
Vodafone opens at 9:30 so we'll go there first and protest inside and outside the shop til it is shut.

Then we will go to each of the other targets in order (with a pitstop at the pub after every couple of closures)
HSBC
...Barclays
Lloyds
Boots
Evans
Topshop

Is there a Miss Selfridge in Bury?

Any other ideas are more than welcome! Thanks


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## shagnasty (Dec 12, 2010)

Worth a read the situation in germany

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/1211/1224285281235.html


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## shagnasty (Dec 12, 2010)

Prince Rhyus said:


> This is surprisingly catchy!
> 
> "We all know politicians like their lies
> Big ones, little ones, porkie pies!"




Enjoyed it very much their talking about a single to release for xmass Would it not be great for it to be no 1 at xmass ,oh well you can but hope


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## rollinder (Dec 17, 2010)

shagnasty said:


> Enjoyed it very much their talking about a single to release for xmass Would it not be great for it to be no 1 at xmass ,oh well you can but hope


 
Money going to "Crisis, Disability Alliance, False Economy and Women's Health Matters." according to facebook 
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Captain-Ska-Liar-Liar-for-Xmas-2010-No1/167549809939108

needs to be bought now-Sat to have a chance.


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## Prince Rhyus (Dec 17, 2010)

Have a listen to http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qgvj - classic episode on 17 Dec 2010 as 2 bloggers go head-to-head with 2 politicians.


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## audiotech (Dec 26, 2010)

Jobs for the Boys.



> Workfare company A4E – it stands for Action for Employment – has huge contracts with the government to help the unemployed into work. But its most recent success has been in finding a job for former Conservative Central Office functionary Jonty Olliff-Cooper, appointing him as its new director of policy and strategy.



http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=hp_sauce&issue=1278


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## Meltingpot (Jan 7, 2011)

Duncan McFarlane's IMO one of the best online journalists in the UK. Here in a longish article he explains why he believes that the Coalition's welfare-to-work policies are doomed to failure;

http://www.duncanmcfarlane.org/welfaretowork/


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## bixi (Feb 1, 2011)

/collapse


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## flicy (Feb 19, 2011)

It is councils you need to protest against, they are cutting the services the public need most but doing nothing about the vast amounts of waste & non jobs they spend our money. Excecutives who hve given themselves as much as 60/70 wage rises over the past 5 years. or how abouit the one who at the same time as cutting vital services was advertising for 3 communication posts £45,0000 each. As for expenses it would put MP,s expenses in the shade. The list is endless. I can't wait for this having to give us a detailed list of what they spend our money on, I think there will be quite a few angry tax payers.


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## flicy (Feb 19, 2011)

Brutal medical tests? What are they doing applying thumb screws to make people tell the truth about their physical capabilities. All they are trying to establish is whether claimants are still in the same condition as when DLA was applied for. information that has been voluntary up to now. And guess what? they don't get many people say their health has improved. I see no reason why the genuinely disabled should have anything to worry about. Of course one persons idea of disability is another's discomfort. With real disability a persons doctor & medical records can tell it all. The benefit bill to this country has become so out of control that it is no longer affordable, if the truly sick & disabled are to be cared for as they should be, the benefit system has to be reformed, the abuse of it ended & returned to what it was originally meant for. If this is not done we will end up like Greece & Portugal where we may find we cannot afford a system at all.


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## treelover (Feb 20, 2011)

who the fuck are you?


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## _angel_ (Feb 21, 2011)

flicy said:


> Brutal medical tests? What are they doing applying thumb screws to make people tell the truth about their physical capabilities. All they are trying to establish is whether claimants are still in the same condition as when DLA was applied for. information that has been voluntary up to now. And guess what? they don't get many people say their health has improved. I see no reason why the genuinely disabled should have anything to worry about. Of course one persons idea of disability is another's discomfort. With real disability a persons doctor & medical records can tell it all. The benefit bill to this country has become so out of control that it is no longer affordable, if the truly sick & disabled are to be cared for as they should be, the benefit system has to be reformed, the abuse of it ended & returned to what it was originally meant for. If this is not done we will end up like Greece & Portugal where we may find we cannot afford a system at all.


 
Wtf are you on about? DLA send out review forms periodically and it's not 'optional'. Patients own doctors are best qualified to comment on their medical condition, not someone who doesn't know the person and actually gets paid to find people fit for work. Incidentally DLA has nothing to do with being able to work or not you seem to be confusing it with Incapacity Benefit, which it may surprise you to know can only be claimed by someone with enough NI contributions. The idea that the 'taxpayer' and claimants are two separate groups is a masterpiece of lying in the press.
And if you don't think forcing people in serious pain or with chronic conditions to go to interviews isn't 'brutal' what is your definition? I'm guessing you haven't heard about the deaths of people declared 'fit for work' by atos either.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/demand-for-fairer-benefits-tests-as-two-die-1.1085915


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## flicy (Feb 21, 2011)

It is a little inconvenient but hardly brutal. Being in pain means still means going to hospitals & waiting around for hours & that really is no joke, but everyone has to do it if they are under a consultant. It is bad that the genuine have to be treated in the same way in this manic equality climate, but it's the cheats that have made it necessary. I am disabled & suffer a great deal of pain but I am quite happy to be checked to see if I still need DLA. Because I abhor the abuse of what is a great system, & don't want to see the day when the country can not even afford benefits to the genuine. Something has to give mate, the country is on it's uppers.


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## _angel_ (Feb 21, 2011)

No it's not "because of cheats" that it had to happen, fraud rates amongst DLA are actually very low. You're being lied to.
What about the people who have died being declared fit to work, was that just a little inconvenient? Good luck with being able to claim DLA, as they want to throw about 20% of people currently claiming off it when they re-introduce it as PIP.
My friend works as an OT assistant for people who are being discharged from hospitals and says none of her patients are qualifying for DLA anymore despite needing the help of OT and home helps etc in their own homes.


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## ash (Feb 21, 2011)

flicy said:


> It is a little inconvenient but hardly brutal. Being in pain means still means going to hospitals & waiting around for hours & that really is no joke, but everyone has to do it if they are under a consultant. It is bad that the genuine have to be treated in the same way in this manic equality climate, but it's the cheats that have made it necessary. I am disabled & suffer a great deal of pain but I am quite happy to be checked to see if I still need DLA. Because I abhor the abuse of what is a great system, & don't want to see the day when the country can not even afford benefits to the genuine. Something has to give mate, the country is on it's uppers.



 If you are disabled then you should be worried as unless you are in a coma you are very unlikely to get into the support group for ESA (If you are currently on IB).  If you are in the work rleated activity group for ESA then it is time limited to one year (If you are not on IB//ESA now you may well need to be in the future.
Your DLA will be reassessed under the Govts proposal to change it to PIP in 2014 and you could well loose it.  What will happen is that you will loose your DLA/pip once you hit pension age (when your needs are likly to be greater).

If you are not disabled then piss off, stop trolling and grow up!!!


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## frogwoman (Feb 21, 2011)

flicy said:


> Brutal medical tests? What are they doing applying thumb screws to make people tell the truth about their physical capabilities. All they are trying to establish is whether claimants are still in the same condition as when DLA was applied for. information that has been voluntary up to now. And guess what? they don't get many people say their health has improved. I see no reason why the genuinely disabled should have anything to worry about. Of course one persons idea of disability is another's discomfort. With real disability a persons doctor & medical records can tell it all. The benefit bill to this country has become so out of control that it is no longer affordable, if the truly sick & disabled are to be cared for as they should be, the benefit system has to be reformed, the abuse of it ended & returned to what it was originally meant for. If this is not done we will end up like Greece & Portugal where we may find we cannot afford a system at all.


 
The irony is "what it was originally meant for" was universal. When benefits were introduced in the early 1910s they were intended to remove the stigma of earlier systems such as Poor Relief etc which were means tested and thus only for beggars, vagrants, "paupers" etc.


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## Mation (Feb 24, 2011)

Sorry if this is poor etiquette but I posted this about the Facepalm Against the Cuts over in the protest forum.


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## Mr.Bishie (Mar 1, 2011)

Camden protest last night - http://www.thegabber.org/?p=214986


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## Imagine (Mar 9, 2011)

Just twenty MPs voted against the second reading of the welfare cuts bill this evening.


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## flicy (Mar 10, 2011)

Why do you think that everyone who dosn't agree with you is a troll & entitled to abuse. I am not afraid because I know I am absolutely genuine. Incidentally 2 days ago the possibility of people slipping through the net when they are genuine was put to a health minister. & he said any such cases should be brought to his notice in order that any changes that need to be made will be. There is no such thing as a perfect system due to it being implemented by individuals with individual judgement, but that dosn't mean that no attempt should be made to reform the welfare system in general. It is grossly abused, although I do agree DLA is less likely to be other than where improvement in circumstances is not volunteered. But our welfare bill has gone through the roof in recent years & is just not sustainable at present levels. The system has to be tightened to discourage abuse & sometimes downright fraud. This money dosn't come from nowhere it comes from working people. No one minds their money helping genuinely sick & disabled people. I for one feel privileged to live in a country where you are not left to die if you can't help yourself as they are in so many parts of the world. But the system is abused & it has to stop because it is now out of control. Anyone who is genuine in the benefits they claim should be grateful that the welfare system is being reformed because it will ensure the country can continue to look after them. All parties want these reforms, but until now no one has had the guts to carry them out.


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## past caring (Mar 10, 2011)

If they was to replace DLA with DSA you'd have no worries, pal.


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## Streathamite (Mar 10, 2011)

flicy said:


> Why do you think that everyone who dosn't agree with you is a troll & entitled to abuse. I am not afraid because I know I am absolutely genuine. Incidentally 2 days ago the possibility of people slipping through the net when they are genuine was put to a health minister. & he said any such cases should be brought to his notice in order that any changes that need to be made will be. There is no such thing as a perfect system due to it being implemented by individuals with individual judgement, but that dosn't mean that no attempt should be made to reform the welfare system in general. It is grossly abused, although I do agree DLA is less likely to be other than where improvement in circumstances is not volunteered. But our welfare bill has gone through the roof in recent years & is just not sustainable at present levels. The system has to be tightened to discourage abuse & sometimes downright fraud. This money dosn't come from nowhere it comes from working people. No one minds their money helping genuinely sick & disabled people. I for one feel privileged to live in a country where you are not left to die if you can't help yourself as they are in so many parts of the world. But the system is abused & it has to stop because it is now out of control. Anyone who is genuine in the benefits they claim should be grateful that the welfare system is being reformed because it will ensure the country can continue to look after them. All parties want these reforms, but until now no one has had the guts to carry them out.


cos you always
a)post the same ignorant, idiotic r/w shite 
and then
b)run away


----------



## Imagine (Mar 24, 2011)

Shameful recent article from the New Statesman:

http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2011/03/benefits-system-welfare


----------



## Roonster (Mar 31, 2011)

flicy said:


> Brutal medical tests? What are they doing applying thumb screws to make people tell the truth about their physical capabilities. All they are trying to establish is whether claimants are still in the same condition as when DLA was applied for. information that has been voluntary up to now. And guess what? they don't get many people say their health has improved. I see no reason why the genuinely disabled should have anything to worry about. Of course one persons idea of disability is another's discomfort. With real disability a persons doctor & medical records can tell it all. The benefit bill to this country has become so out of control that it is no longer affordable, if the truly sick & disabled are to be cared for as they should be, the benefit system has to be reformed, the abuse of it ended & returned to what it was originally meant for. If this is not done we will end up like Greece & Portugal where we may find we cannot afford a system at all.


That all seems to be a basic argument by someone who seems to "trust" this government..the reality is that this is a cost cutting exercise.
I was asked today at the end of a "back to work" interview if I had managed to walk up the stairs to the first floor.. I saw no lift and was not told there was one... I did manage but took it's toll on my breathing.
At the end of this interview the person said as some kind of afterthought he had noticed I manage to climb the stairs.. then he gave me some chat about how was annoyed with his boss because he had sick people having to walk up the stairs.. then I was told that this government had a programme of helping people back to work.. and that my benefits of around £86.00 a week could be cut to JSA at around £65.00. 
OK get the violins out..I've had four major ops on my heart over the last five years ,three replacement heart valves,been hospital for around a year over that period.. but because of the brilliant NHS surgeons I can walk .. I've never been afraid of hard work and most of my working life has been in building and labouring.. this government are simply transfering sick people onto the dole to save £30.00 per head.


----------



## treelover (Mar 31, 2011)

'I've never been afraid of hard work and most of my working life has been in building and labouring.. this government are simply transfering sick people onto the dole to save £30.00 per head'


That is what NL always planned, it was never about helping sick and disabled people..


----------



## Roonster (Mar 31, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'I've never been afraid of hard work and most of my working life has been in building and labouring.. this government are simply transfering sick people onto the dole to save £30.00 per head'
> 
> 
> That is what NL always planned, it was never about helping sick and disabled people..


Makes no difference to me,or anyone in a similar position whatever government as far as health goes...any MP of any political party must know that to live on a basic income of £65 per week is impossible for even the most able bodied people unless other payments such as housing are made.. but this government are simply trying to cut the deficit by screening out the sick from the extremley sick to save a few quid..a drop from £86 to £65 for genuine sick people is massive but would not even cover the cost of a dinner meeting for any MP... it makes me feel sick


----------



## _angel_ (Apr 1, 2011)

Roonster said:


> Makes no difference to me,or anyone in a similar position whatever government as far as health goes...any MP of any political party must know that to live on a basic income of £65 per week is impossible for even the most able bodied people unless other payments such as housing are made.. but this government are simply trying to cut the deficit by screening out the sick from the extremley sick to save a few quid..a drop from £86 to £65 for genuine sick people is massive but would not even cover the cost of a dinner meeting for any MP... it makes me feel sick


 
It's not even just about money... how much are all these changes onto (doomed ESA) costing, when it is clear they will stop it and change everything again onto the universal credit. It's an ideological campaign to try and stop anyone claiming anything (especially longterm). They're happier giving tax payers money to private companies like A4E than to the people who need the money to live on.


----------



## Urbanblues (May 9, 2011)

At last, they're rolling out information on Personal Independence Payment Guidelines. The following link will take you to the relevant 'Disability Alliance' factsheet.

http://www.disabilityalliance.org/f60.htm


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 10, 2011)

Urbanblues said:


> At last, they're rolling out information on Personal Independence Payment Guidelines. The following link will take you to the relevant 'Disability Alliance' factsheet.
> 
> http://www.disabilityalliance.org/f60.htm


"they" are not rolling out anything, it's independent organisations like DA who are taking the time to analyse and communicate what "they" intend to do with this invidious scheme to remove disabled people from additional benefit payments that were introduced by a tory administration in recognition of the extra costs associated with disability. and these lib-dem fucks bleat about being "human shields" in the coalition or something, despicable wankers.....


----------



## Urbanblues (May 10, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> "they" are not rolling out anything, it's independent organisations like DA who are taking the time to analyse and communicate what "they" intend to do with this invidious scheme to remove disabled people from additional benefit payments that were introduced by a tory administration in recognition of the extra costs associated with disability. and these lib-dem fucks bleat about being "human shields" in the coalition or something, despicable wankers.....


 
Hmmm, thought that's what I was getting at. After all I did mention it's a DA Fact Sheet.

Anyway, now we have a better idea of what we're, potentially, up against we can start to challenge some of the excesses.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 25, 2011)

Good demo in Cambridge last night. Eric Pickles was invited to speak at the uni union by the student tory club. 

The residents that turned up to demonstrate nearly had the life drained out of them by droning socialists on megaphones until a group managed to find a way into the building and disrupt the Tory pow wow.

We got within a few metres of Pickles himself and managed a volley of abuse and jibes to his face 

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Home/Pickles-protesters-storm-Union-building-24052011.htm

http://www.tcs.cam.ac.uk/issue/news...nion-–-union-security-staff-“out-of-control”/

Anybody spot an Urban75 tshirt?


----------



## audiotech (May 29, 2011)

flicy said:


> Why do you think that everyone who dosn't agree with you is a troll & entitled to abuse. I am not afraid because I know I am absolutely genuine. Incidentally 2 days ago the possibility of people slipping through the net when they are genuine was put to a health minister. & he said any such cases should be brought to his notice in order that any changes that need to be made will be. There is no such thing as a perfect system due to it being implemented by individuals with individual judgement, but that dosn't mean that no attempt should be made to reform the welfare system in general. It is grossly abused, although I do agree DLA is less likely to be other than where improvement in circumstances is not volunteered. But our welfare bill has gone through the roof in recent years & is just not sustainable at present levels. The system has to be tightened to discourage abuse & sometimes downright fraud. This money dosn't come from nowhere it comes from working people. No one minds their money helping genuinely sick & disabled people. I for one feel privileged to live in a country where you are not left to die if you can't help yourself as they are in so many parts of the world. But the system is abused & it has to stop because it is now out of control. Anyone who is genuine in the benefits they claim should be grateful that the welfare system is being reformed because it will ensure the country can continue to look after them. All parties want these reforms, but until now no one has had the guts to carry them out.



'Genuine'? Ha, that's a good one. Its obviously not occurred to you that the debt crisis has been greeted in certain quarters as a golden opportunity to further roll back the post-World War II social settlement, so not only are workers jobs, pay and conditions under threat, but also the social wage too.


----------



## treelover (Jun 6, 2011)

I am one of the "work shy scroungers" vilified in the press on an almost daily basis. I havent worked for 5 years nor am I going to be able to for the next five years. the past 12 months I have been spat at and abused in the street, been called a faker by strangers. and why? because I served for 13 years in the armed forces until I was caught in an IED which left me completely blind, reliant on oxygen, take 52 tablets a day to keep my organs working and only able to stand for 5 minutes until my spine gives out. 

according to the proposed cuts I will have to leave the small 2 bedroom house i have which means loosing an overnight carer when I am ill and my guide dog. Today I had a letter from Lord Freud who just said we all have to accept what is happening and gave the worst case scenario of benefit fraud and inflated rent prices (£2000 a week - mine is 133 a fortnight - big difference !!!)as a blanket excuse. my local MP is aware that if the reform goes through as planned I will have to choose to either move to another area loosing all contact with friends and be in complete isolation or make up the short fall in my benefits to pay the rent which will be paid using my meals on wheels money allowing me to have a meal just once every other day.

My situation is not unique but this is what thousands of others are facing. but i thought in this day and age i would never have to choose between if i want human contact each day or a meal each day. This is not what I fought for my country for. and i wish those who want to tar us all with the scrounger brush to have a think before you speak. we have feelings dignity and pride even if we dont have a meal everyday. I am ashamed to be British if this is how we will treat the disabled and sick in this country from now on'

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/06/welfare-reform-employment



new Laurie Penny article on the 'human cost of welfare reform'  its very good, but the comment below the lines are just as revealing, as in this one


----------



## dennisr (Jun 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/06/welfare-reform-employment



Thanks for the link TL - its a powerful example :-(


----------



## treelover (Jun 8, 2011)

'http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/06/480493.html'


some major sucesses developing, the 'Making Work Pay' conference has been suspended, its a real shame though all this wasn't happening when the reforms were first being discussed and Serco, etc were sponsoring such conferences.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 9, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/06/480493.html'
> 
> 
> some major sucesses developing, the 'Making Work Pay' conference has been suspended, its a real shame though all this wasn't happening when the reforms were first being discussed and Serco, etc were sponsoring such conferences.


 
Exactly and we must not loose sight of that,


----------



## Imagine (Jun 10, 2011)

Final Commons vote on Monday 13th June:



> *Fight the Welfare Bill - lobby your MP today*
> 
> 9th June 2011
> 
> ...


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Jun 10, 2011)

Did anyone see this weeks Panorama? 
 They went to sunny Rhyl to investigate the welfare to work plans. Interesting that even a spokesperson for one of the private companies  they intend to use for the welfare to work schemes is urging caution, saying that the government should be careful about promising more than it can deliver.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/default.stm


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 10, 2011)

Cameron. Cunt.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23959458-cameron-risks-new-welfare-row-over-too-poor-parents.do


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 10, 2011)

> Surely the key point here is should those on JSA or Income Support be entititled to have chidren. I have heard of many families on income support who are having up to five children.



comments, prick

stop the poor from breeding basically


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 10, 2011)

I see the standard are allowing racist posts now



> Very well said David. I expect you have offended someone already. Probably the 15 year old "mums" with assorted fathers and multi-coloured kids. Best way to get a council house and money from us for the rest of their "non- working" lives. Many will be grandmothers (sorry, grand mums) by the time they are 30. What a drag on the nation.


----------



## treelover (Jun 27, 2011)

Grace Petrie, 

'Farewell to welfare', great song...


----------



## marty21 (Jul 4, 2011)

so Tory infighting now about the £26k benefit cap - Pickles write to Cameron and told him basically that in the long tern, this cap will not save money, and will in fact cost more - as it will lead to increased homelessness - with the local authorities having to place some of those made homeless by the cap into temporary accommodation which costs more  

still has to go through the Lords - will there be yet another u-turn by the Tories? 

Also will it lead to a revival of rent caps? surely if you limit the rent a private landlord can charge - then HB bill would be reduced - and BTL landlords can share some of the pain.


----------



## blntgms (Jul 6, 2011)

In Bloom said:


> I'd be up for doing something around this.
> 
> I was actually thinking of trying to get a claiment's union going in Merseyside.  And then maybe after that I'll punch out Mike Tyson and climb Everest


----------



## blntgms (Jul 6, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I dunno about anyone else, but I'm sick of seeing people say "why doesn't someone do something" (yes, I know actually some people are, but y'know...).
> 
> Let's do something.  I'm in south London.  What I'd like to see is ideas for tactics/strategy on this thread and to arrange an initial meeting.
> 
> Anyone up for it?  Or am I pissing in the wind?



http://www.ordu.lu/admin/resimler/haberler/ordulucocuklaryaztatilinicalisarakgeciriyor0_o_.jpg


----------



## treelover (Jul 12, 2011)

'New Labour, the market state, and the end of welfare
Jonathan Rutherford

Jonathan Rutherford looks at the connections between government and the insurance business in their joint project to reduce eligibility for sickness benefits.

© Soundings 2007
In November 2001 a conference assembled at Woodstock, near Oxford. Its subject was 'Malingering and Illness Deception'. The topic was a familiar one to the insurance industry, but it was now becoming a major political issue as New Labour committed itself to reducing the 2.6 million who were claiming Incapacity Benefit (IB). Amongst the 39 participants was Malcolm Wicks, then Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Work, and Mansel Aylward, his Chief Medical Officer at the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP). Fraud - which amounts to less than 0.4 per cent of IB claims - was not the issue. The experts and academics present were the theorists and ideologues of welfare to work. What linked many of them together, including Aylward, was their association with the giant US income protection company UnumProvident, represented at the conference by John LoCascio. The goal was the transformation of the welfare system. The cultural meaning of illness would be redefined; growing numbers of claimants would be declared capable of work and 'motivated' into jobs. A new work ethic would transform IB recipients into entrepreneurs helping themselves out of poverty and into self-reliance. Five years later these goals would take a tangible form in New Labour's 2006 Welfare Reform Bill. '

http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/journals/articles/rutherford07.html


always worth reposting , all the usual suspects were at the Conference, Aylward, DWP, Unum, NL, Wesseley, Sharpe, etc.


----------



## roctrevezel (Jul 12, 2011)

treelover said:


> http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/journals/articles/rutherford07.html
> 
> 
> always worth reposting , all the usual suspects were at the Conference, Aylward, DWP, Unum, NL, Wesseley, Sharpe, etc.



In a similar vein so is this:-
http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/journals/soundings/articles/s47griffiths.pdf

_The misuse of evidence in incapacity benefit reform
Steve Griffiths
The use and misuse of evidence in the benefits debate_


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2011)

News



> Government delays Welfare Reform Bill
> 
> 15 July 2011
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Jul 15, 2011)

mmmm, first time that has happened I think on welfare, the weakening of the tabloids may help long term as well...


----------



## _angel_ (Jul 15, 2011)

treelover said:


> mmmm, first time that has happened I think on welfare, the weakening of the tabloids may help long term as well...


 
Although it may be good news it being delayed -- who knows maybe it might not go thru the Lords (we can hope). I wouldn't say that tabloids had been "weakened" esp not the Mail, but it's all media that have been continuing this drip drip drip of poison against claimants of anything for any reason.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 20, 2011)

Defend Elaine McDonald & Disability Rights


Lobby Kensington & Chelsea Council’s Cabinet Meeting

The Town Hall, Hornton Street, London W8 7NX

at 5.30pm on Thursday 21 July 2011

Please come if you can.  See below more info from Disabled People Against Cuts and at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14042078

Defend Elaine McDonald and Disability Rights – Lobby Kensington and Chelsea Council’s Cabinet Meeting on 21 July 2011 @ 5.30pm

Please circulate and print and display wherever you can.

The Supreme Court has ruled in support of Kensington and Chelsea council’s withdrawal of overnight care to Elaine McDonald to save money. This will mean she will have no choice but to wear pads, although this is undignified and against her express wishes. Male judges are undermining a woman’s right to choose how she is helped with personal care.

The ruling has accepted that reviewing care plans can be treated as a reassessment of need. Therefore any contact with social services, even a phone call, could lead to detrimental changes to a disabled person’s care package.

The idea that privacy and independence can best be facilitated by dispensing with personal assistants or care workers at night was also supported by the Supreme Court. This is contrary to the government’s Independent Living Strategy, and undermines everything we have fought for as a disabled people’s movement for the last forty years. Personal assistance is vital to many disabled people’s independence and safety. Disabled people with complex health and social care needs who cannot move unaided should never be left alone at night in case of a fire or a sudden deterioration in their condition.

Disabled people, family carers, personal assistants, women, pensioners, community activists and trade unionists should come to the lobby to support Elaine and oppose this disgraceful ruling. Elaine’s overnight care should be restored immediately. A defeat for Elaine is a defeat for us all.

Contact ADKC on 0208 960 8888 or at pbsupport@adkc.org.uk

Contact HAFCAC on 07899 752 877 or at hafcac@hotmail.co.uk 


Contact DPAC at mail@dpac.uk.net or visit our web site at www.dpac.uk.net

Contact WinVisible on 0207 482 2496 (voice & minicom) or at win@winvisible.org


----------



## smokedout (Jul 22, 2011)

Demonstration & Rally Against Welfare Cuts

Saturday, July 23 · 12:00pm - 3:00pm

Brighton Level


As a result of the bankers’ crisis, over a million people lost their jobs. To pay off the bankers’ gambling debts, the government is making massive cuts to public spending that will throw over a million more onto the dole queue.

While the number dependent on welfare increases, the government is implementing major cuts to benefits for the sick and disabled, the unemployed, single parents and those on low wages.

At the same time mil...lions of pounds of public money are being diverted to private companies as our services including health, welfare and education are hived off.

To justify their actions the government is trying to divide the people, painting the unemployed and sick as lazy scroungers. The truth is that welfare cuts – which create misery and destroy lives – amount to many times less than the unpaid taxes owed by fat cat businessmen.

At any time, we can find ourselves in need of help. We must be able to rely on a decent, publicly funded and run welfare system. Public good cannot be served by private greed.

It's time to say NO!

http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=218318601530164


----------



## smokedout (Jul 24, 2011)

Protest Against Mobile Regional Taskforce – Birmingham - Monday 25th July

http://benefitclaimantsfightback.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/protest-against-mobile-regional-taskforce-birmingham/


----------



## treelover (Jul 27, 2011)

'Mark Steel: Time to inflict pain on the terminally ill'

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...flict-pain-on-the-terminally-ill-2326355.html


Mark Steel on ATOS, very funny...


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 5, 2011)

smokedout said:


> Protest Against Mobile Regional Taskforce – Birmingham - Monday 25th July
> 
> http://benefitclaimantsfightback.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/protest-against-mobile-regional-taskforce-birmingham/


 



			
				DWP said:
			
		

> The Mobile Regional Taskforce will scrutinise the claims of a high proportion of current benefit customers within a specific geographical location, regardless of age, gender, ethnic make-up, type of benefit recipient, income, disability breakdown or family status.



So is this all still going ahead then?

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/newsroom/press-releases/2011/jul-2011/dwp080-11.shtml


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 14, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/13/atos-doctors-improper-conduct-disability

*Atos doctors could be struck off*

Twelve medics at the disability assessment centre are under investigation by the GMC over allegations of improper conduct.

Latest Guardian article and one I'm so happy to read.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 14, 2011)

oh.. rather large print


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 14, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> So is this all still going ahead then?





stuff_it said:


> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/newsroom/press-releases/2011/jul-2011/dwp080-11.shtml




Rolling out countrywide in September going by the latest DWP press release.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 14, 2011)

Frankie Jack said:


> Atos doctors could be struck off.



Good.  Struck off and die, ATOS.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 14, 2011)

> Comments were launched erroneously on this article, and will shortly close.



Wonder why? Worried about being sued by the evil shites at ATOS?


----------



## treelover (Aug 14, 2011)

absolutely...


----------



## roctrevezel (Aug 16, 2011)

It appears ATOS are getting rattled, this is second threat of legal action in the last few weeks:-
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/108334
Tuesday 16 August 2011
by Will Stone, Health & Social Affairs Reporter
Exclusive: Private firm threatens legal action


Private giant Atos Healthcare is threatening legal action against a disabled man who set up a website collecting people's experiences of "fit for work" assessments.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 17, 2011)

Shitbag company. I know the other person whos website was being actioned against and am in contact with Paul too. 


Atos has many contracts with the government and have bought Seimens who have the train building contract.


----------



## treelover (Aug 29, 2011)

*Our social security system must guarantee real welfare*
From a common aspiration, welfare has been turned into a notion that sets 'the poor' apart from the rest of society

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/28/robin-hood-poor-welfare

Good article by poverty expert Ruth Lister

Purnell really is a odious shit...


----------



## treelover (Sep 3, 2011)

very good forum piece here, including the explosive revelation there will be no right to appeal for claimants on universal credit, though those who make mistakes will of course be hammered.

http://mylegal.org.uk/index.cgi?board=frontline&action=display&thread=405


----------



## treelover (Sep 3, 2011)

oh, and as regard the Work Programme

In what is a boost to the Big Society, 508 voluntary sector groups including Mencap, the Citizen’s Advice Bureau, youth charity The Prince’s Trust and Action for Blind People will all be involved in delivering the Work Programme."​ 
Read more: http://mylegal.org.uk/index.cgi?board=frontline&action=display&thread=405#ixzz1WtDjbOvi​


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Sep 4, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/sep/04/david-cameron-tougher-benefits-cheats


----------



## Imagine (Sep 7, 2011)

NHS privatisation has just passed its Third Reading in the Commons (with a majority of 65).


----------



## ash (Sep 12, 2011)

*The Govt are trying to sneak things in before going thrugh the proper democratic process:*


*Welfare Reform Bill (Employment and Support Allowance - Time Limiting - Contingency Fund Advance)*

7 September 2011
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling): As part of his Spending Review announcement, the Chancellor set out his proposal to introduce a time limit of 1 year for those claiming contributory Employment and Support Allowance who are in the Work Related Activity Group. The change will, subject to the passage of the enabling legislation, apply from April 2012. For those in the Work Related Activity Group who have already received a year or more contributory Employment and Support Allowance as at April 2012, entitlement will cease immediately.
In order to avoid delay in implementing this policy the Department for Work and Pensions has obtained approval for an advance from the Contingencies Fund of £2,705,000 to allow for the development of IT, ensure those potentially impacted by the time limit in April 2012 are notified of the change and to deliver the operational support that will be required before Royal Assent of the enabling legislation.
Parliamentary approval for resources of £2,705,000 for this new service will be sought in a Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Work and Pensions. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure estimated at £2,705,000 will be met by repayable cash advances from the Contingencies Fund.
 DA says: this decision will end all out of work benefits for over 400,000 disabled people – including people with cancer. The Government is denying the House of Lords a chance to scrutinise and vote on this proposal in the Welfare Reform Bill before prematurely telling disabled people their support could end in six months.


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2011)

http://union-news.co.uk/2011/09/vid...and-lgbt-activist-grace-petrie-on-the-fringe/

'Farewell to Welfare'

Grace Petrie


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Sep 13, 2011)

treelover said:


> http://union-news.co.uk/2011/09/vid...and-lgbt-activist-grace-petrie-on-the-fringe/
> 
> 'Farewell to Welfare'
> 
> Grace Petrie



wish I'd gone to that. Sounds like it was a good evening. I was at a meeting just round the corner from it.
In another mtg that I attended this lunchtime I heard Unite are launching an initiative to get  the unemployed  and other non wage earners to join their union. This is very encouraging.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Sep 13, 2011)

treelover said:


> http://union-news.co.uk/2011/09/vid...and-lgbt-activist-grace-petrie-on-the-fringe/
> 
> 'Farewell to Welfare'
> 
> Grace Petrie


thanx, love it


----------



## ash (Sep 15, 2011)

What about this, the dirty tricks continue:

we have just received several emails from organisations including Carer Watch and The Broken of Britain about what is claimed to be government attempts to stifle opposition to the Welfare Reform Bill currently being debated in the House of Lords..  

There is no time for us to check out the accuracy of these claims – *the deadline for doing anything is 3.30pm today* - but as the issue is potentially an important one we are passing it on to you, unverified though it is.  There are several email addresses at the end of the article of people to contact.
*Urgent call to action*
After an incredibly constructive debate yesterday in the House Of Lords the government appear to be concerned about how many Lords had significant concerns about the Welfare Reform Bill, even those Lords who in principle supported the bill had major questions they wanted answers to.
For a bill of this size and importance, convention dictates that the next stage of the bill should be kept in the main chamber of the House of Lords for debate. It's particularly important the bill be continued to be debated in the main chamber as disability access to the smaller committee rooms is very limited and people will not be able to access the committee rooms to exercise their democratic right to observe the passge of the bill from the public chamber.
At 3.30pm today the govermnent are tabling a motion to move the grand committee stage of the bill into one of the smaller committee rooms. Presumably the government are hoping that by moving a bill into the committee rooms it will be harder to scrutinise - there won't be enough space in any of the committee rooms to allow for all the Lords to participate, let alone for us to scrutinise online or attend in person.
This is an outrage - the government are clearly concerned by the level of queries and opposition to the Welfare Reform Bill highlighted by yesterday's debate and wish to quietly sideline it to a committee room where they hope it will pass with less opposition. Tabling the motion for the afternoon following PMQ's is also an underhand trick as it means it will be harder for us to object through the main stream media.
This is our call to arms. This bill affects us, our families and every aspect of our lives, as well as the lives of those currently paying into the system in anticipation of protection should they require it. If we can make enough noise in the next few hours the government will be forced to keep the passage of the bill in the main chamber of the house of lords where it can be effectively and appropriately scrutinised by all.
What you can do to help is this:
Please post copies of this blog onto your facebook, your twitter, stumbleupon, wikio etc. Please email it to everyone you know, please talk about this on your own blogs. Email or phone your MP to register your objections, email or phone the house of lords to explain your concerns, email or phone the media, local or national and explain that whether or not people are in favour of this bill, that it is a fundamental democratic right to have it debated in the main chamber of the house of lords where there is space for all who wish to attend and observe. Highlight the injustice and hypocrisy of the governments behaviour in trying to sideline this important bill into a room too small for all the Lords to attend and certainly too small to allow those in wheelchairs, or with guide dogs, the very people most affected by this bill to be able to observe from the public gallery.
If we make enough noise before 3.30pm today the government will have to drop this underhand tactic and the Bill will continue to be debated in the main chamber of the House of Lords where everyone who wishes to can attend and observe.
UPDATE 13.30
The email addresses to contact are:
anelayj@parliament.uk – this is the chief whip to whom you should send the email and cc it to the others.
bassams@parliament.uk – opposition chief whip.
freudd@parliament.uk – David Freud
You can read the original post on the Broken of Britain blog.

Posted on Benefits and Work. Not sure if true and too late to act but they have stooped lower!!!


----------



## treelover (Sep 16, 2011)

10 people protesting in Edinburgh against Duncan Smith, while last week a thousand protested against the SDL, which in the long term is the most destructive?

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/09/484750.html


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## jiggajagga (Sep 26, 2011)

Here is a copy of an email I received from Steve Bassam regarding the Welfare reform bill lords stage

Dear Sir /Madam
Welfare Reform Bill - House of Lords Debates
Firstly, can I thank you for making contact with Labours team in the Lords on this important Bill.
Like you and no doubt many others concerned about the Bill and its implications for many people in the UK we were concerned when the Government suddenly announced that it was going to prevent the Bill from being taken on the floor of the main chamber of the House of Lords. As Labour’s Chief Whip, I had been carefully negotiating with the Government to ensure we had the maximum amount of time to discuss its serious implications for the many people in the country who are reliant on the Government to ensure they are free from poverty and receive much needed support. We know too how important and controversial the bill is for many who suffer from a disability.
It is unprecedented for any Government to put a procedural motion of the sort the Government Chief Whip Baroness Anelay did before the House - instructing the Lords to take a Bill in Grand Committee. These things are always reached by mutual agreement. We argued that the Bill needed at least 8 full committee days in the main Chamber of the House of Lords because it is controversial and has big implications for some of the poorest and most vulnerable of our citizens. We did force the issue to a vote and lost 263-211. Most of those supporting the Government were Liberal Democrats and Conservative peers who now have a political majority in the House of Lords.
Now, sadly, the Bill will be considered in a committee room. We will try to ensure that the Bill is not hidden away and forgotten. Most of all we will play our part in ensuring that the room and space used is accessible for those with a disability or mobility problem and that interested members of the public can listen in and access the debates and discussions.
In terms of voting on amendments to the Bill, this is not possible in a Grand Committee. This is one of its disadvantages from an opposition perspective. However, we can vote when the Bill is at Report Stage, though it might limit the number of issues we can realistically oppose in the division lobbies. I will be working out a strategy with our front bench team to ensure we make good use of the opportunities to oppose those parts of the Bill which are most objectionable. We hope that you can help us in this exercise and we would very much welcome your continued interest and contact. If you are involved in a campaign group do please keep sending the briefings. Personal testimonies are also very helpful in debates because they help explain and put in context the issues.
I am attaching the Hansard link (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2011-09-14a.752.4 ) to the short debate which took place on the location of the committee. Baronesses Jane Campbell and Tanni Grey-Thompson were brilliant from the Cross-benches. I just wish that the Government had not been so dogmatic. Sadly they have put too much controversial legislation into Parliament too quickly and are running out of time in this session to get it through. The Welfare Reform Bill is a victim of their ruthlessness.
Finally thank you for your interest.
Yours sincerely,
Steve Bassam


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 29, 2011)

Can I c/p that to other places Jigga? It would be of interest to many others who are helping to fight this bill.


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## Frankie Jack (Sep 30, 2011)

Kalia Franklin Persisting at Milibland at Conference Q&A. He calls her Harriet even after being corrected twice.


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## treelover (Oct 1, 2011)

Apparently there were significant protests against ATOS all over the UK, the campaign is now one of the most important and sustained in the UK, time for all to get onboard.

http://london.indymedia.org/articles/10275

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/09/485425.html


----------



## jiggajagga (Oct 2, 2011)

Frankie Jack said:


> Can I c/p that to other places Jigga? It would be of interest to many others who are helping to fight this bill.


certainly


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## hmmph (Oct 20, 2011)

anyone seen this

http://disability-cuts-map.demos.co.uk/


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 20, 2011)

so is anyone going to any of these?

http://thehardesthit.wordpress.com/octoberaction/


----------



## ash (Oct 21, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> so is anyone going to any of these?
> 
> http://thehardesthit.wordpress.com/octoberaction/


Probably going to the London one at City Hall


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## ash (Oct 22, 2011)

ash said:


> Probably going to the London one at City Hall


I was there today I missed some of it but saw some speakers who did pretty wel (members of the public). I saw the end of a labour MP not sure who she was who said that labour were fighting against the fine limiting of cESA. First I've heard of it! Did Nyone else go to one?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 22, 2011)

i fucked up big time. cycled down at 1pm, only to find out it has started at 11am and we'd missed it really. d'oh 

don't know how i got my head mixed up but i did.


----------



## ash (Oct 24, 2011)

No media coverage at all as far as I can see!!


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 24, 2011)

there's a round up here


----------



## ash (Oct 25, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> there's a round up here


Thanks Paulie.  Shame there was nothig nothing on the National or localnews or in the Papers, but nor surprising.


----------



## Mab (Nov 1, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I dunno about anyone else, but I'm sick of seeing people say "why doesn't someone do something" (yes, I know actually some people are, but y'know...).
> 
> Let's do something. I'm in south London. What I'd like to see is ideas for tactics/strategy on this thread and to arrange an initial meeting.
> 
> Anyone up for it? Or am I pissing in the wind?


----------



## Mab (Nov 1, 2011)

Oh yes, we are with you here in Ontario Canada we will not give up. We love you--keepn going--we are


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## Mab (Nov 1, 2011)

Oh my gosh; now  I`m back home ten to three and Lou Reed is playing;  you can`t depend on intelligence you can;t depend on your friends you need a bus load of faith to get by.      You can`t depend on  cruelty--you need a busload of faith to get by.


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## Mab (Nov 1, 2011)

Where can I borrow a well-read English man who is interested in WW2 and understands history


----------



## Meltingpot (Nov 7, 2011)

I know several on a different board. Try L. Ron Hubbard or Dan Dare on the Phora.


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## frogwoman (Nov 7, 2011)

Stop right now.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Nov 7, 2011)

Thank you very much. SG


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## smokedout (Nov 8, 2011)

petition I'm afraid, but duty and all that

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20968

*Stop and review the cuts to benefits and services which are falling disproportionately on disabled people, their carers and families*


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## treelover (Nov 8, 2011)

Sue Marsh of 'diary of a benefit scrounger' was just on Ch4, the woman has real dignity and guts, compare her to the politicians...


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## BigTom (Nov 9, 2011)

http://truth-reason-liberty.blogspot.com/2011/11/austerity-kills.html

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/ne...uple-found-lying-side-by-side-92746-29739580/

Coventry couple in apparent suicide pact, unable to access benefits, 10 mile round trip to collect food parcels for the week.  I'm filled with sadness and anger, not the first suicides because of the fucked up state of the benefit system and won't be the last.


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## treelover (Nov 9, 2011)

A Tory MP is quoted as saying the Govt shouldn't back down when the suicides begin...

angry about the above, its still not a priority for many though...

btw, Sue tells in the blog that she is getting emails every week on these lines, not pleas for help, but definite plans for suicide by disabled people if they lose their benefits...


----------



## treelover (Nov 9, 2011)

Just read that TRL blog, there have been a number already


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## Frankie Jack (Nov 9, 2011)

This was DWPExams death list up till July this year.There have been at least four more suicides since then not including the two noted above.

Just how many more will it take for Tories to back down. 20, 50. Those that have happened aready are to many as far as I'm concerned.

That site is also one ATOSSERS had closed down. They are now with Black Triangle on an Icelandic server so that ATOSSERS cannot get to them.


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## Frankie Jack (Nov 9, 2011)

If anyone on twitter wonders what the recent biweekly #wrb and #teamwrb cluttering up the timeline is.. it's concerned benefit scrounging scum following the Welfare Reform Bill through the House of Lords and tweeting what they see/hear. As the debate is only televised on the internet on Parliament TV, the general public don't know it is happening.

It's been an eyeopener for those following it and reading the Hansard reports is shocking.

This really is a vile and brutal bill for all aspects of welfare covering everything from childcare to the roof over your heads.

All the Hansards can be found here under W for anyone who has the be bothereds to read them and weep and todays report will be published tomorrow/today.

There was a cry of outrage today when Lord Fraud appeared to refer to the sick and disabled as 'STOCK' This is not the first time this has happened when a search pulled up a statement from a professor Gregg in 2010 who also seemed to refer to them as 'stock'

So next time you see #wrb and #teamwrb on your twitter timeline pay it some heed..

Yours.. one of #teamwrb.


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## BigTom (Nov 9, 2011)

The story I posted has made the front page of the metro this morning, which should bring it to wider attention, hopefully shock a few people into thinking through just what happens when you attack the benefits system

and yes, the welfare reform bill is horrendous.  It got far too little attention, except on twitter.
and now they are talking about 6 month workfare "community service" placements for people.


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## frogwoman (Nov 9, 2011)

treelover said:


> A Tory MP is quoted as saying the Govt shouldn't back down when the suicides begin...
> 
> angry about the above, its still not a priority for many though...
> 
> btw, Sue tells in the blog that she is getting emails every week on these lines, not pleas for help, but definite plans for suicide by disabled people if they lose their benefits...



These people are scum.


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## _angel_ (Nov 9, 2011)

smokedout said:


> petition I'm afraid, but duty and all that
> 
> http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20968
> 
> *Stop and review the cuts to benefits and services which are falling disproportionately on disabled people, their carers and families*


Thanks for posting that, I think it might need it's own thread tho.


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## treelover (Nov 9, 2011)

'There was a cry of outrage today when Lord Fraud appeared to refer to the sick and disabled as 'STOCK' This is not the first time this has happened when a search pulled up a statement from a professor Gregg in 2010 who also seemed to refer to them as 'stock'

yes, I remember him saying that, he really is an odious man, the Works And Pensions Dept seems full of them...


----------



## treelover (Nov 10, 2011)

'This punishing welfare plan may be a bridge too far for the government'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/10/welfare-plan

RE: Freud, he really is a grade a shit, reminds me of some of the worse thatcherites

apparently he is demanding single parents/families work more hours under U/credit or face benefit cuts


----------



## treelover (Nov 10, 2011)

'Women, the disabled and ethnic minorities, who all experience inequalities in pay and face discrimination in the jobs market, will have to work longer and harder to free themselves from the threat of sanctions. They will have to search for opportunities to increase their earnings for a time period equivalent to the number of hours they are expected to be available for employment. Each must create and update an online profile, and do so "in an effective manner" or face sanctions.'


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## BigTom (Nov 10, 2011)

Corporate Watch: Regulating Workfare

Tales from Tesco and Holland & Barrett workfare schemes..

---

I can't see the welfare reform bill getting defeated.  Truly horrible state of affairs.  Closing libraries then demanding that people in poverty have internet is just adding insult to injury.

Anyone in the Midlands reading this thread wanting to help create a network to take action on the whole scope of benefits stuff please pm me.


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## treelover (Nov 10, 2011)

'*Freud’s crocodile tears'*
On the subject of Lord Freud, the ex-banker and current minister for welfare reform told the House of Lords last week that he was unhappy at the way media reporting of benefits issues caused fear amongst claimants. He claimed that he and his colleagues in the DWP found the press coverage ‘deeply disturbing’ (members only).' 

Given that it is briefings by Freud and his DWP colleagues, and their continued failure to correct press lies, that are turning claimants into hate figures, the claim was as outrageous as it was laughable.  But it may be that Freud and his colleagues have finally realised that if you want to persuade employers to take on sick and disabled claimants via the currently failing Work Programme, then portraying them as overwhelmingly workshy frauds isn’t really a very bright idea. In fact, the real workshy frauds are the private sector Work Programme providers who have been caught red-handed taking cash for helping claimants and then packing them off to the nearest volunteering centre. In one case they even tried to get a volunteering centre to provide volunteers to work with claimants for free.

From benefits and work, apparently Freud and his colleagues are worried that media coverage of welfare issues are upsetting claimants, yeah, he means the temperature is rising and he expects real flak to begin,

btw, there is real anger and dismay, as there should be about Helen and Marks suicide..

the MSM TV media has well covered the 'scroungers' now cover the casualties...


----------



## ash (Nov 10, 2011)

I dont understand why Lord Freud is controlling the decision making in the second chamber, surely the point of the House of Lords is to verify or challenge bills/acts. Freud strong influence coming  from the governing party totally undermines this process and Democracy??!!


----------



## keitheddy007 (Nov 11, 2011)

SPAM


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2011)

FUCK OFF


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## Frankie Jack (Nov 15, 2011)

SERIOUS SHOUT OUT..!!!!



Tanni_GT Tanni Grey-Thompson
@
@InterUncut. need more data. I would like to know who is going to be cut? If those in most need get most support then it has to be someone ?

@Tanni_GT wants to know if you are one of the 600.000+ who will lose the lower rate of DLA when PiP is introduced. There will only be two levels instead of three.

The link is to the assessment regulations  PDF and she wants to know if you will be one of those who will not qualify for PiP. You will then be set on ESA or JSA

Please read and get back to Tanni either at
Westminster

House of Lords, London, SW1A 0PW
Tel: 020 7219 3143
greythompsont@parliament.uk

Or

http://www.tanni.co.uk/contact/

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pip-second-draft-assessment-regulations.pdf


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## Frankie Jack (Nov 15, 2011)

Here are direct links to They Work For You to email Lords with your PiP, ESA, DLA, ATOSSERS concerns.Will add more as I find them.

Bns Hollis
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fy...com/peer/baroness_hollis_of_heigham&who=31314

Lord Toughig
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fyr_extref=http://www.theyworkforyou.com/peer/lord_touhig&who=48960

Lord McKenzie
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fy...you.com/peer/lord_mckenzie_of_luton&who=31709

Bns Campbell
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fy.../peer/baroness_campbell_of_surbiton&who=34122

Bns Grey Thompson
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fy...you.com/peer/baroness_grey-thompson&who=46664

Bns Wilkins
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fy...orkforyou.com/peer/baroness_wilkins&who=31666

Lord Low
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fy...foryou.com/peer/lord_low_of_dalston&who=33723

 Bns Lister
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fy.../peer/baroness_lister_of_burtersett&who=49392

 Bns Loan
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fy...rkforyou.com/peer/baroness_o%27loan&who=45968

Lord Wigley
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fyr_extref=http://www.theyworkforyou.com/peer/lord_wigley&who=49377

Bns Turner
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fy....com/peer/baroness_turner_of_camden&who=31638

Lord Newton
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fy...u.com/peer/lord_newton_of_braintree&who=31461

 Bns Thomas
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fy.../peer/baroness_thomas_of_winchester&who=33710

Countess Mar
http://www.writetothem.com/write?fy...workforyou.com/peer/countess_of_mar&who=31422


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## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 15, 2011)

Whoops, the government has just realised that when they announced the increase in taper rates for tax credits from 39% to 41%, they forgot to actually pass the necessary legislation, so they've had to slip an amendment to rectify into the welfare reform bill. Government forgets to do something and it's all not a problem, claimant forgets to do something and they need a public flogging to teach them the error of their ways!!!! 

_*Baroness Hollis of Heigham:* Does that mean that as a result we have been paying people less than they were entitled to by law and are retrospectively correcting that?_
_*Lord Sassoon:* My Lords, claimants are being paid what they expected to be paid based on the announcement made by my right honourable friend the Chancellor in the June 2010 Budget. If the legislation goes uncorrected, HMRC will be paying at a rate that is not covered by the law, so it is necessary to amend the legislation to bring into alignment the law and what claimants expected to receive and are receiving._
_*Baroness Hollis of Heigham:* So I think the answer to my question is yes. In other words, between April and December, HMRC has been withdrawing money at a taper that was not legitimised by legislation?_
_*Lord Sassoon:* My Lords, there are a lot of things where HMRC starts in practice, and the law, whether primary or secondary legislation, comes afterwards._

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201011/ldhansrd/text/111114-gc0001.htm#1111144000084


----------



## BigTom (Nov 16, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/nov/16/young-jobseekers-work-pay-unemployment?intcmp=122

Possibly worth it's own thread - has generated a lot of interest on twitter, Guardian article about Workfare with people who have been on schemes at Poundland and Tesco.. There's going to be more stories on this in the Guardian over the next week. I think this is going to be front page tomorrow, certainly front page will be about benefits stuff, sounded a bit broader than this article.


----------



## treelover (Nov 16, 2011)

some of us on here were predicting this years ago, btw, on my visit there i managed to engineer one minutes silence at OLSX for the couple who killed themselves after losing benefits, 2000 people just being silent and thinking of them and the issues, it ws very moving


----------



## BigTom (Nov 16, 2011)

treelover said:


> some of us on here were predicting this years ago, btw, on my visit there i managed to engineer one minutes silence at OLSX for the couple who killed themselves after losing benefits, 2000 people just being silent and thinking of them and the issues, it ws very moving


well done.. I was there and was pleased at that.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 17, 2011)

http://www.publicinterestlawyers.co.uk/news_details.php?id=193

We've intitated a legal challenge to workfare.  This came about because of a discussion on facebook between people who had largely met at occupy birmingham.. it'd be wrong to say it came out of occupy birmingham, but I know the person who is the client in this challenge because of that, so even though occupy is full of idiots, at least something genuinely good has come out of it.
Going to be working hard on media for this, and also starting a campaign on workfare in the West Mids - if anyone is in that area and wants to be involved let me know.. we're not really started on it yet, in the same conversation that resulted in this legal challenge, we had pretty much decided to focus on Poundland with the aim being to get Poundland to withdraw from the workfare scheme, and will be employing a wide set of tactics, from petitioning, to direct action, to attempts to unionise the workforce.


----------



## treelover (Nov 18, 2011)

jus read on another (private) blog about a person who has had a stroke, yet was sent to work for a disability charity, and had to do all sorts of things they clearly couldn't do...

the charities are a disgrace as well...


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 19, 2011)

And now this...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15801515




			
				BBC: GPs should 'not sign off long term sick' said:
			
		

> *People should be signed off for long-term sickness by an independent assessment service and not GPs, a government-backed review says.*
> *
> *
> The review also suggests tax breaks for firms which employ people who suffer from long-term conditions.
> ...






> If the recommendations are accepted people who are signed off sick would also be put on to Job Seekers' Allowance, instead of Employment Support Allowance, for a period of three months.





> They would receive less money and have to prove they were looking for work.


----------



## Imagine (Nov 21, 2011)

Badly framed report on ESA appeals and soft soap interview with Grayling on tonights Channel 4 News.

http://www.channel4.com/news/new-benefit-system-dogged-by-endless-appeals


----------



## treelover (Nov 21, 2011)

I thought it was much better than past reports, but it definitely seemed to accept the principle of workfare, as did sadly the CAB in the report, it was more about the inefficiency of the new system...


----------



## treelover (Nov 21, 2011)

'A NIGHTMARE neighbour launched a hate campaign against a wheelchair user – branding him a benefit scrounger because he had seen him walking. '
http://www.shieldsgazette.com/news/crime/cruel_neighbour_waged_three_month_hate_campaign_1_3985558

all this state sanctioned hatred is having an effect


----------



## smokedout (Nov 24, 2011)

Two Nottingham residents, a pensioner and a wheelchair user, have been charged with aggravated trespass. The pair, dubbed the “Atos Two” by supporters, were arrested following a peaceful protest the offices of the Atos “Healthcare” on Stoney Street on September 30th. Campaigners accuse Atos of participating in a government-led attack on people with disabilities under the guise of “austerity.”
*Upcoming event:* Protest outside Bridewell Magistrates Court, Friday 25th November, 9.30am
Sign the statement of support: http://nottingham.indymedia.org.uk/articles/2195


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## Frankie Jack (Nov 24, 2011)

Harrington Report Year 2 pdf

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-review-2011.pdf


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## caravankev (Nov 25, 2011)

Frankie Jack said:


> Here are direct links to They Work For You to email Lords with your PiP, ESA, DLA, ATOSSERS concerns.Will add more as I find them.
> 
> Bns Hollis
> http://www.writetothem.com/write?fyr_extref=http://www.theyworkforyou.com/peer/baroness_hollis_of_heigham&who=31314
> ...


----------



## caravankev (Nov 25, 2011)

Has anyone here looked at the decision making process in regards to disability benefits and the qualifications of those making those decisions. I am particularly interested in comments  from people who have, or who are looking to appear at a 1st or upper tier tribunals.
Its just that in these times of austerity, welfare benefit cuts and the disappearance of a legal aid system that is the only chance for many to access their legal rights. The Tribunal Service that is under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice, is hiring in High Street solicitors to sit as Tribunal Judges and also  write up medical decisions and statements ("in their own time") that are denying people benefits.
Knowing what I do about lawyers I would rather a second hand car salesman/woman or a road sweeper make such decisions on my health concerns, but people with some medical experience would be good.
Even people with an ounce of common sense and a pinch of integrity would be acceptable.
It seems to me that based on my own experiences yer local lawyers are having themselves a little feeding frenzy curtousy of said Ministry. Fucking hypocrits.
Below from a FOI request.
MINISTRY OF JUSTICE
FEES FOR FEE PAID COURT AND TRIBUNAL APPOINTMENTS
WEF 01.04.11
01.11.09 [see note 3 below]
01.04.10 [see note 3 below]
01.04.11 [see note 3 below]
Courts (Crown, County, Supreme Court)
Retired Lord of Appeal
940
940
940
Retired Lord Justices (sitting COA)
894
894
894
Retired High Court Judges etc
785
785
785
Deputy High Court Judge
785
785
785
Retired Judges of the TCC (sitting as Deputy Judge of TCC)
630
630
630
Recorder
583
583
583
Deputy Circuit Judge
583
583
583
Assessor, Taxation Tribunal (County Court)
468
468
468
Assessor, Taxation Tribunal (High Court)
468
468
468
Deputy District Judge
468
468
468
Deputy District Judge (Magistrates Courts)
468
468
468
Deputy Judge Advocate
468
468
468
Deputy Supreme Court Master/ Registrar
468
468
468
Tribunals
Upper Tribunal - Administrative Appeals Chamber
Judge (including Deputy Judge) except where otherwise specified
583
583
583
Care Standards
Other member
201
201
201
Information Rights
Judge
n/a
501*
524*
Other member
265
265
265
Transport [Traffic Commissioner Appeals]
Judicial Member (Chairman)
478*
501*
524*
Other member
334
334
334
Upper Tribunal – Immigration and Asylum
Judge
n/a
583
583
Other member
n/a
265
265
Upper Tribunal – Lands Chamber
Member
549
549
549
Upper Tribunal – Tax and Chancery Chamber
Judge
552*
559*
566*
Other member
265
265
265
First-tier Tribunal – General Regulatory Chamber
Former Acting President
-
-
583
Local Government Standards in England (formerly Adjudication Panel For England)
Former President, Adjudication Panel For England
480*
495*
510*
Judge
404*
418*
432*
Other member
184
184
184
Charity
Judge
468
468
468
Other member
265
265
265
Claims Management Services
Chairman
549
549
549
Other member
265
265
265
Consumer Credit Appeals and Estate Agents
Judge
549
549
549
Other member
265
265
265
Gambling Appeals
Judge
468
468
468
Immigration Services
Judge [See note 4, below]
549
549
549
Other member
334
334
334
Information Rights
Judge
468
468
468
Other member
265
265
265
Transport
Principal judge
583
583
583
Judicial Member (Chairman)
468
468
468
Other member
334
334
334
First-tier Tribunal - Health, Education and Social Care Chamber
Care Standards
Judge
417*
428*
439*
Other member
201
201
201
Primary Health Lists (formerly Family Health Services Appeal Authority)
Former President [See note 4, below]
583*
583*
583*
Judge [See note 4, below]
486
486
486
Medical member
336
336
336
Other member
275
275
275
Mental Health
Judge (Restricted Patients’ Panel)
583
583
583
Judge
455*
458*
461*
Medical Member
454
454
454
Other member
212
212
212
Special Education Needs & Disability
Judge
468
468
468
Other member
239
239
239
First-tier Tribunal – Immigration and Asylum
Immigration Judge
468
468
468
Other member
265
265
265
First-tier Tribunal - Social Entitlement Chamber
Asylum Support
Adjudicator
412*
424*
436*
Criminal Injuries Compensation
Legal
397*
412*
427*
Medical Member
391
391
391
Other member
391
391
391
Social Security and Child Support
Judge
412*
424*
436*
Medical Member (medical examination might be required)
371
371
371
Medical Member (no medical examination required) [See note 5, below]
302
310
310
Financial Member
302
302
302
Member with experience of disability
192
192
192
First-tier Tribunal - Tax Chamber
Judge [See note 4, below]
549
549
549
Other member
265
265
265
Newly-appointed judge
468
468
468
Newly-appointed tax member
265
265
265
First-tier Tribunal - War Pensions and Armed Forces
Compensation Chamber
War Pensions and Armed Forces Compensation (previously Pensions Appeal Tribunal)
Judge
455*
458*
461*
Medical Member
454
454
454
Service Member
212
212
212
Other Tribunals
Adjudicator to HM Land Registry
Deputy Adjudicator
468
468
468
Employment Appeal Tribunal (EAT)
Recorders
785
785
785
Member [and Assessor (appeals against decisions of Reinstatement Committees)]
303
303
303
Employment Tribunals (England & Wales; & Scotland)
Employment Judge
452*
456*
460*
Member
174
174
174
Gender Recognition Panel [ See Note 1 below]
Judge
412*
424*
436*
Medical Member [ See Note 2 below]
371
371
371
Pensions Appeal Tribunal (Northern Ireland)
Legal & Medical Member
454
454
454
Service Member
212
212
212
Proscribed Organisations Appeals Commission (POAC)
Member
415
415
415
Reserve Forces Appeal Tribunal
Employment Judge/Chair
452*
456*
460*
Non-legal member
174
174
174
Social Security Commissioner and Child Support Commissioners (Northern Ireland)
Deputy Social Security and Child Support Commissioners
583
583
583
Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC)
Non-legal Member
415
415
415
Transport Tribunal
President
583
583
583
Judicial Member (Chairman)
468
468
468
Non-legal Member
334
334
334
Others
Solicitors' Disciplinary Tribunal - Non-legal Member
265
265
265
County Court Assessor (Landlord & Tenant)
265
265
265
County Court Assessor (Race Relations)
265
265
265
County Court Assessor (Sex Discrimination)
265
265
265
Note 1 - Legal members of the GRP are salaried first-tier tribunal judges (Social Entitlement Chamber) who receive no additional remuneration for undertaking GRP work.
Note 2 - Medical members of the GRP are drawn from the pool of Medical members, Social Security and Child Support.
Note 3 - Those fees highlighted by an asterisk include increments of phased increases, introduced from 1 November 2009, awarded further to the introduction of a new pay structure for legally qualified tribunals judiciary. Increases will be applied in April each year, with the final increment in April 2014.
Note 4 - Currently paid on a personal basis.
Note 5 - Once a medical member has sat for more than 20 days in any one financial year, their fee will be £371 for all subsequent sittings during that year.


----------



## treelover (Nov 25, 2011)

Lords of Poverty, going back 100 years...


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Dec 6, 2011)

I see The Sun and it's lovely readers are full of festive cheer towards welfare claimants today
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...on-Christmas-its-paid-for-by-my-benefits.html


----------



## revol68 (Dec 10, 2011)

dynamicbaddog said:


> I see The Sun and it's lovely readers are full of festive cheer towards welfare claimants today
> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...on-Christmas-its-paid-for-by-my-benefits.html



where do the sun find these idiots, and how much do they pay them to humiliate themselves?

having watched some of the fuckwits on x factor and jeremy kyle I'm not even sure why I'm asking.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2011)

is she just making that shit up?


----------



## revol68 (Dec 10, 2011)

"Here's £2000 if you say a load of stupid shit and pose for the camera, have a nice christmas"

I'd probably do it but then I'd contact another paper and sell my story of how The Sun paid me to be a moron, more money!


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2011)

Thats what i think yeah. I wonder where they get these people from though?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2011)

A mate of mine suggested to me not long ago that we both go on Jeremy Kyle and make something up.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Dec 13, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Thats what i think yeah. I wonder where they get these people from though?


perhaps she  just got duped by a journalist with a sympathetic manner
 The media's anti welfare agenda does seem to be working, 54% think that benefits are too high according to the  Social Attitudes Survey
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...tion-could-you-live-on-67-a-week-6276210.html


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 13, 2011)

i just read that. I wonder if a lot of it isn't to do with how those questions are phrased? and general ignorance about different benefits generally (its a subject i dont know much about myself, the systems so bloody complicated)


----------



## _angel_ (Dec 13, 2011)

dynamicbaddog said:


> perhaps she just got duped by a journalist with a sympathetic manner
> The media's anti welfare agenda does seem to be working, 54% think that benefits are too high according to the Social Attitudes Survey
> http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...tion-could-you-live-on-67-a-week-6276210.html


If you're constantly reading about people with ten kids being housed in a million pound mansions, it's not hard to see how that could skewer how much you think benefits are.


----------



## treelover (Dec 14, 2011)

Owen Jones on the British Social Attitudes study, read what that cow Edwina Currie says about Mark and Helen

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...tion-could-you-live-on-67-a-week-6276210.html


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 16, 2011)

Freud this week in the lords Welfare Reform Debate stated that those with cancer undergoing chemo may be expected to seek work by being put on JSA or stay in work McMillan railed against this but it seems that it was Oncology Specialists AND McMillan while in discussions with Harrington for his report that advised this.. Now The Gubmnt has opened a consultation so that those actually going through chemo may have their say. Please share the Consultation link as far and wide as you can so that those liable to end up in jobcentres while suffering the ravages of chemo can tell them what it's really like.
I've posted the following everybluddywhere.

Have your say.. The chance for those who are, or have, experienced treatments for Cancer and the effects it had. Don't just let Oncology Specialists or groups like McMillan tell the gubmnt what having Cancer is like. YOU tell them.
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/consultations/2011/wca-assessment.shtml


----------



## treelover (Dec 20, 2011)

BBC programme _Can You Touch Your Toes?’_ 'Is the new disability benefit working?’,

BBC Radio 4, 20 December 2011 at 8pm'

Sounds quite balanced, looks at the ESA, the nature of the test and follows a number of disabled people who have been through what we know is a brutal process...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16253389


----------



## treelover (Jan 9, 2012)

new blog
http://dwpstories.blogspot.com


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 9, 2012)

https://skydrive.live.com/view.aspx/Responsible Reform for screen readers.doc?cid=cba86408918caa9e

Responsible reform.

#spartacusreport.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 9, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> https://skydrive.live.com/view.aspx/Responsible Reform for screen readers.doc?cid=cba86408918caa9e
> 
> Responsible reform.
> 
> #spartacusreport.



http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...people-please-circulate.286994/#post-10815178

Thread treelover posted about the report


----------



## BigTom (Jan 10, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jan/10/atos-wca-citizens-advice-right-first-time?CMP=twt_gu

CAB release report saying that ATOS assesments suffer from widespread innacuracies


----------



## BigTom (Jan 19, 2012)

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/2496/

ATOS declare man in coma as being fit for work.  No, it's not a daily mash headline. It should be, but it's not.

Alright, it's on a forum, but the person who posted it appears to be from a welfare rights unit in reading
http://readingcommunitywelfarerightsunit.co.uk/

and, let's be fair, how many of us with any degree of experience of ATOS assessments are actually surprised by this.
It's still unbelievable though, whilst at the same time being totally believable.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 20, 2012)

'nother one Tom...

http://www.hamiltonadvertiser.co.uk...offered-return-to-work-advice-51525-30151500/

A MAN in the final stages of a terminal illness has been offered the chance to meet with a Jobcentreplus return-to-work advisor.
The invitation was branded an insult by Elizabeth McGowan, whose husband Stevie was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in 2002.
Former painter and decorator Mr McGowan (51) is also registered blind and suffering severe dementia.
He is bed-ridden and looked after 24/7 by loving wife of 26 years Elizabeth and a team of dedicated carers at the couple’s home in Ivy Place, Blantyre.

The couple have three children: sons aged 17 and 14 and a 23-year-old daughter.
Up until last month, Mr McGowan received Income Support on grounds of his illness and disability.
However, in August last year he received an application form for Employment and Support Allowance.
It’s the controversial welfare payment brought in to replace incapacity benefit and income support.
The benefit was piloted in three areas before being rolled out across the country last April.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 20, 2012)

@DJHanks on twitter found another person who is in a coma who was found fit for work by ATOS in October last year (third or fourth paragraph) http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/wimbledon/9443339.Review_of_the_year__October/

These cases need to be as widely known as possible so people understand that the way ATOS do this is just wrong.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 20, 2012)

Around 30 people and one guide dog at today's lunchtime demo in Leamington Spa, good turnout with people travelling from Birmingham, Coventry and Rugby to join Leamington activists.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 20, 2012)

http://fuelpovertyaction.wordpress.com/

Fuel Poverty Action announces "weekend warm ups" actions, which UK Uncut are supporting and promoting (I heard about it through them).
Hopefully there will be more actions announced as local uncut groups take part.  Will see if anyone is around that weekend but I've got a feeling it's the NCAFC conference which means most of the people I know who are up for direct action will not be here.

27th-30th January, events in Lewisham and Leeds announced


----------



## brinjalpickle (Jan 23, 2012)

BigTom said:


> http://fuelpovertyaction.wordpress.com/
> 
> Fuel Poverty Action announces "weekend warm ups" actions, which UK Uncut are supporting and promoting (I heard about it through them).
> Hopefully there will be more actions announced as local uncut groups take part. Will see if anyone is around that weekend but I've got a feeling it's the NCAFC conference which means most of the people I know who are up for direct action will not be here.
> ...





BigTom said:


> Around 30 people and one guide dog at today's lunchtime demo in Leamington Spa, good turnout with people travelling from Birmingham, Coventry and Rugby to join Leamington activists.



I'll be doing my bit by backing the government measures.


----------



## treelover (Jan 23, 2012)

idiot....


----------



## brinjalpickle (Jan 23, 2012)

treelover said:


> idiot....



An I may fell a tree.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jan 23, 2012)

Hello cunt.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 23, 2012)

BBC Democracy Live Covering the Lords WRB 

Parliament TV


----------



## brinjalpickle (Jan 23, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Hello cunt.



Move away from the mirror.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jan 23, 2012)

You broke the mirror.  So please, cut your throat with a shard.


----------



## brinjalpickle (Jan 23, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> You broke the mirror. So please, cut your throat with a shard.


Definitely a bunch of fun on here, I think I'll stay. What was that Spencer Tracy film, "The Last Hurrah" I think it was called' he must have had you in mind.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jan 23, 2012)

It would be fun seeing you do that, yes.


----------



## brinjalpickle (Jan 23, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> It would be fun seeing you do that, yes.


Do what?


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jan 23, 2012)

#524.


----------



## brinjalpickle (Jan 23, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> #524.


So infantile.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jan 23, 2012)

You're dead funny, you are. lol.


----------



## treelover (Jan 23, 2012)

you are the worse troll we have had in ages


----------



## brinjalpickle (Jan 23, 2012)

treelover said:


> you are the worse troll we have had in ages


Me, a troll???? Merely attempting to put a view that isn't tainted by an overdose of propaganda. Not easy when dealing with a bunch of mental pygmies.


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 23, 2012)

treelover said:


> you are the worse troll we have had in ages


at least since last time he was here, trolling the Dale Farm thread.


----------



## treelover (Jan 23, 2012)

brinjalpickle said:


> Me, a troll???? Merely attempting to put a view that isn't tainted by an overdose of propaganda. Not easy when dealing with a bunch of mental pygmies.



'Propaganda' against the reforms, who from, are you mad?, the barrage of untruths, lies and smears against claimants over the last number of years would have made Goebbels smile...


----------



## brinjalpickle (Jan 23, 2012)

Ground Elder said:


> at least since last time he was here, trolling the Dale Farm thread.


Was I on here then? I now know the definition of a troll as being someone who doesn't fit in with the Urban Myth of Urban 75.


----------



## brinjalpickle (Jan 23, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Propaganda' against the reforms, who from, are you mad?, the barrage of untruths, lies and smears against claimants over the last number of years would have made Goebbels smile...


So how many claimants do you think are the real McCoy?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 24, 2012)

brinjalpickle said:


> Me, a troll???? Merely attempting to put a view that isn't tainted by an overdose of propaganda. Not easy when dealing with a bunch of mental pygmies.



Who's this knob?

Talking of knobs - here's the ever-wonderful Peter Watt. It's on Iain Dale's shitblog so it's not safe for keeping food down.

http://www.iaindale.com/posts/the-public-sector-cuts-must-go-further

STILL supposedly-informed politicos talking bollocks about austerity.


----------



## treelover (Jan 24, 2012)

anyone got that picture of Watt still when he was an 'anarchist'


----------



## brinjalpickle (Jan 24, 2012)

S☼I said:


> *Who's this knob?*
> 
> Talking of knobs - here's the ever-wonderful Peter Watt. It's on Iain Dale's shitblog so it's not safe for keeping food down.
> 
> ...



Just one poster who seems to rile people just by being here. Who are you?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 24, 2012)

brinjalpickle said:


> Just one poster who seems to rile people just by being here. Who are you?



Just some bloke. How are you enjoying Urban?


----------



## brinjalpickle (Jan 24, 2012)

S☼I said:


> Just some bloke. How are you enjoying Urban?


From what I read, there's very few enjoying anything except complaining about everything and anything. Me, I'm fine


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 24, 2012)

brinjalpickle said:


> From what I read, there's very few enjoying anything except complaining about everything and anything. Me, I'm fine



Complaining IS enjoyable. But hell. Urban's a big place. No need to stay in politics all the time.


----------



## treelover (Jan 26, 2012)

'Message from the invisible'
http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/25/uk-uncut-welfare-tax-disability

Disabled people and UKUncut to protest the welfare reforms, looking for support, big event it seems...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 28, 2012)

So were any Urbs there at the protest in Oxford St today? Pics and news would be much appreciated if you were. 
http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 28, 2012)

Good report from DPAC on todays protest.



*shitty dongle gone over bandwidth so hope vid is working*


----------



## BigTom (Jan 29, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> So were any Urbs there at the protest in Oxford St today? Pics and news would be much appreciated if you were.
> http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/



Yes I was there - was an excellent action, 15-20 wheelchair users chained across regent st, traffic backed up down there - mostly buses, but one coach (the driver was offered coffee by activists at various points) for an hour or two until they managed to get buses to turn off at a side street then backed others up - but that took an hour or two.
I'd guess 200-300 people there, but it's really hard to tell.  It's also not possible to tell how many of those who were there are disabled and will be directly affected by the reform bill, and how many were not and there in solidarity, but I spoke to a mixture of people, some disabled, some not.
Lots of press there, and mostly positive reports (aside from the express which wasn't really negative but just gave 4 paras to the DWP and only half a para to a DPAC spokesperson).
http://www.demotix.com/news/1023435...tion-oxford-circus-against-disability-welfare
this is a great set of pictures, Heard in London is always good for these things, well worth following on twitter if you are there..

The public were supportive where comments were made to me. Because I was there as a legal observer I had a hi-vis on and that seemed to attract people to ask me what this was about.
The police were about as decent as they get, the officer in charge at the scene was friendly and seemed more to go through the motions of asking the wheelchair users to move to only block one side of the road (the entrance from oxford st), and not be too worried about it, rather than being heavy handed and bringing in bolt cutters for the chain then forceably move people.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 29, 2012)

Thanks for the report Tom. Have Heard in London on Twit and you too I think. It's frustrating being so far away, so skint, and sometimes so ill that even local actions are impossible for me.

I do my best by tweeting live all the WRB debates in the Lords both Report and when it was in Committee. 

Dreading the 3rd reading. Won't be able to live tweet this time as only monitor I have is used for both TV and computer. Having to revert back to dongle as cannot afford this months Broadband means I cannot watch it online and live tweet.

I've a feeling there may be breakages here if the gov do what they say they intend to and wipe out all the amendments gained in the Lords. 

Fucking bastards.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 30, 2012)

A group called "Heat or Eat" occupied British Gas offices today: http://www.flickr.com/photos/heatoreat
@heatoreat on twitter..
Part of the Fuel Poverty Action weekend


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 2, 2012)

Wot no "The bastards invoked Finacial Privilege to drive their fucked up welfare policies through..!!" post. 

It was said they would use this somewhat archaic ability in the run up to the bill going back to the commons. Fuck me but many gobs were smacked when they did though. 

As each and every Lords amendment was voted against there was only the one sparkle of real emotion in a day of bland Conservative style "debate" and that was Ann McGuire. Labour shadow minister for Work and Pensions. For  brief moments she actually brought some life to the whole depressing day. 

To see Iam Dung-can Spiv and his team of spinners repeating the same old mantras throughout the day was excruciation. 

What next eh.. NHS reform a Money Bill too..? It's been rumoured, and I wouldn't put it past these CUNTS. 

I fucking despise every fucking Tory on this fucking planet.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 2, 2012)

Diary of a Benefit Scrounger
Benefit Scrounging Scum


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 2, 2012)

Are our GPs being coerced into being ATOS HCP clones.



> What do you think of this guidance to doctors? The consultation closes on Friday 10th February 2012. Any member of the public can take part



*Doctors getting people back to work*

The comment at the bottom says it all for me.


----------



## BigTom (Feb 2, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Wot no "The bastards invoked Finacial Privilege to drive their fucked up welfare policies through..!!" post.
> 
> It was said they would use this somewhat archaic ability in the run up to the bill going back to the commons. Fuck me but many gobs were smacked when they did though.
> 
> ...



Think that's being covered in the "govt suffers third defeat..." thread about the wrb.
they are a bunch of cunts alright.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 2, 2012)

Thanks Tom. Too many threads spread around.


----------



## BigTom (Feb 3, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/03/waterstones-ends-unpaid-work-placements?newsfeed=true

Waterstones have pulled out of the workfare scheme


----------



## treelover (Feb 3, 2012)

http://ouchtoo.org/

New discussion site for disability/welfare issues, replacing the Ouch BBC one which many suspect was taken down becaue it criticised the BBC's take on welfare issues too much...


----------



## treelover (Feb 6, 2012)

'Soundings journal publishes an ebook ‘Welfare Reform The dread of things to come’.
Free download at

http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/ebooks/WelfareReform.html ].

Contributors: Peter Beresford, Declan Gaffney, Kaliyah Franklin, Steve Griffiths, Sue Marsh, Jonathan Rutherford.

Contributors bear witness, employ argument and offer statistical evidence to challenge the way both Labour and the Coalition governments have designed and implemented welfare reforms.'


ace new report on welfare, by Soundings inc Jonathan Rutherford who imo, wrote the definitive article on the genesis of the reforms..


----------



## Belushi (Feb 11, 2012)

http://www.justsinead.blogspot.com/2012/02/why-benefits-is-dirty-word.html


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 11, 2012)

Belushi said:


> http://www.justsinead.blogspot.com/2012/02/why-benefits-is-dirty-word.html



Gave up reading that purely because of the lack of paragraphs.


----------



## mindscrape8088 (Feb 12, 2012)

A very revealing documentary. Not for the faint hearted.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 12, 2012)

Is there some kind of loon invasion or something?


----------



## BigTom (Feb 12, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Is there some kind of loon invasion or something?


 
It's actually a really good documentary called "The Corporation", which is freely available on a shareware basis.. no idea who "alpha oculus worldwide group" are, or why they are reposting this when it's freely available, but the name rings huge alarm bells..

I've also no idea why it's been posted on a thread about campaigning against welfare and poverty, except that it's at the top of the forum.. they've also posted it on an FBI conspiracy thread, and I'd be reporting them but they've posted a clearly handwritten post as well so I don't think they are a spambot.

e2a: a look at the Alpha Oculus website, looks well dodgy, financial advise to get into gold & silver, looking to be selling financial advisory services.  Website is also shit and takes ages to load.  very dodgy- but in no way connected to the documentary, aside from that they've reposted it on youtube


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 12, 2012)

oh ok the alpha oculus thing was what made me think it was a conspiracist.


----------



## BigTom (Feb 12, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> oh ok the alpha oculus thing was what made me think it was a conspiracist.


 
Yep, I had exactly the same reaction.. I almost didn't even start to watch it, but then thought I'd see if it was actually something to do with poverty/campaigns.. 
anyway, I edited my post - alpha oculus appear to be a dodgy financial advice company, prob. pyramid/ponzi schemes or straight up scamming.. but nothing whatsoever to do with the documentary, which is really worth watching if you haven't seen it.  You can download a shareware version from torrent sites, or watch it on youtube in that link..


----------



## Libertad (Feb 12, 2012)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/7935823/Bounty-hunters-to-cut-benefit-fraud-by-1bn.html



> *Private agencies are to be paid by the Government to reduce benefit fraud by £1billion, David Cameron is to announce.*


----------



## ash (Feb 12, 2012)

Libertad said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/7935823/Bounty-hunters-to-cut-benefit-fraud-by-1bn.html



They will be investigating "lifestyles inconsistent with those claiming incapacity benefit". Wtf!!


----------



## treelover (Feb 15, 2012)

'Sainsbury’s has joined Waterstones in withdrawing from the government “Work Experience” scheme, '

http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=376

A small group of people seem to be having a significant impact..


----------



## BigTom (Feb 15, 2012)

Yep, also TK Maxx and Co-op group have said on twitter that they are no longer taking part in the scheme, waiting for a more official statement.. at the moment they seem to be falling like flies, which is great..

We have two meetings in Birmingham about workfare, one local one in Kings Heath on Wed 7th March (All Saints Centre, KH High Street) 7pm-8pm, and one in the city centre on Thurs 29th March (7pm-9pm at the council house).

Hopefully going to do a picket or some kind of action on the 3rd March along with events in Liverpool, London and Brighton, or will do one towards the end of march if not..


----------



## treelover (Feb 15, 2012)

these are real concrete victories...


----------



## stuff_it (Feb 15, 2012)

brinjalpickle said:


> So how many claimants do you think are the real McCoy?


Most of them, and with food and fuel the price it is you would have to be a severe masochist to want to try to get by on benefits unless you had no other choice. 

There isn't some massive rise in benefit fraud, there aren't any bloody jobs. That's why when you do find work you find employers doing shift patterns that no one who wasn't desperate would ever in a million years take....6 days on two days off on min wage works out you are earning just a little too much to make claiming tax credits viable, and you only get about one weekend off every two months. How is that ok? I thought it was bad in MK where they were expecting people to work 6 days and have either Sat or Sun off again on min wage. This is all physical work so anyone with so much as a dodgy knee or heart couldn't do it. 

There isn't any office work, or anything like that. Near enough the only work that's available out in the provinces consists of near-slavelike conditions (I won't say slave-like, they save that for the people who won't take these jobs), and yes I guess coming from a JSA pov the agency I signed up to was surprised I got 100% on their maths and English test (very basic) so I guess it would be easy to look at some of the longer term unemployed and say that they are lacking in some sort of skills or motivation that could help them get ahead, but let me tell you this is not the case. There's no bloody jobs, that is the main problem. Employers are naturally going to discriminate against those who are disabled (no matter how illegal that may be on paper), where there are several hundred applicants for every job they can discriminate by binning all the applications from people who haven't done that exact job since they left school... I have even seen places wanting people to have used the same brand of the same type of machinery they use or not to bother applying, never mind all the spurious 'apprenticeships' in stuff like retail, warehousing, care work, etc - jobs that previously used to pay min wage and offer NVQs to staff quite often anyway.

I can see where someone who has been lucky enough to not find themselves out of work during the recession without any sort of recourse to help from family or school connections may be somewhat insulated from the reality, but the reality is that if someone of my experience, qualifications, availability and high tolerance for muppets can't even get ongoing temp work then there is little hope for many of us. My mum (who to be fair I generally disagree with but not in this instance) knows how lucky she was during the 90s recession to have ongoing reasonably waged work.

Thankfully I have a way out, but if I couldn't study for a degree that I'm almost certain to get a job at the end of I would be in the same boat - totally screwed. It's not as though the system was so soft before. I was signed off the sick by my GP a week out of detox before the last changes, and though within a few months I was in a fit state to work there was literally no help in the meantime. 

The current ESA system is a complete pig and a nightmare, it costs more than it saves going by the government's own figures. I hate to have to point it out but making massive bureaucratic changes no matter who you farm the donkey work out to will always end up costing more than not making the changes. Surely if the money had gone into other things, such as training people in the building trades by investing in new council house stock then the money would have gone further. 

The job insecurity that most workers face these days is not helping the economy one bit, perhaps a change in benefits policy to make it more generous would help - maybe if it was based on the Dutch model (where you get a percentage of your earnings for a period after your job ends) would lead people to spend more?

It's bad enough that I spend more time filling in my 'homework diary' for  the dole than I spend actually applying for jobs, but then like I said I at least have a cunning plan. Most of us don't or their cunning plan has gone up shit creek due to illness or lack of jobs in general. I don't even know why I'm bothering to rant, probably because I'm putting the pro back in procrastinate again. 

Someone please make me go do my homework. 

And next time we get a live one someone come tell me.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 15, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> <snip>Someone please make me go do my homework.
> 
> And next time we get a live one someone come tell me.


Back to what you're supposed to be doing *NOW*_, _Stuff_it.  Urban will still be here when you've finished


----------



## stuff_it (Feb 15, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Back to what you're supposed to be doing *NOW*_, _Stuff_it. Urban will still be here when you've finished


But the internet is so interesting when you have deadlines!


----------



## Greebo (Feb 15, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> But the internet is so interesting when you have deadlines!


So is washing up, scrubbing a floor (which seemed more than clean enough last week), finding a less annoying biro etc...  I ended up deliberately locking myself out of my room when really up against one deadline just so that I had nothing at all to be distracted by.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Feb 15, 2012)

oh lol
http://www.conservativedisability.org/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 16, 2012)

Lorditup Frauds concessions on Welfare Reform Bill. pdf


----------



## BigTom (Feb 16, 2012)

I put this on the tesco workfare thread but thought I'd post it here.. disabled claimants in the WRAG will face unpaid work placements without any time limits!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/16/disabled-unpaid-work-benefit-cuts


----------



## belboid (Feb 19, 2012)

Emma Harrison under investigation for fraud 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...laims-funding-went-jobs-lasting-just-day.html


----------



## treelover (Feb 19, 2012)

The dam breaks, nothing on local media, wonder why?


----------



## BigTom (Feb 19, 2012)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/food-queues-heap-shame-on-coalition-690932

It's possible I picked this link up on another thread on here, but I can't remember..



> ONE of the abiding images of the desperate 1930s was of families queuing for food. It was the only way they could save themselves from starving.
> 
> We thought it could never happen again in affluent Britain. Yet today tens of thousands are forced to rely on handouts from food banks.
> 
> The shocking figures speak for themselves. A new food bank opens every four days. The biggest operator has doubled in size in little more than a year and now runs 176 centres helping 100,000 people. The number is growing all the time.


----------



## eoin_k (Feb 22, 2012)

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...-tesco-isnt-a-bad-place-to-start-7280033.html

I'm not familiar with Christina Patterson's writing.  Is this nasty little hatchet job par the course?


----------



## stuff_it (Feb 23, 2012)

A mate has just been sent someone else's ESA decision:




			
				my mate said:
			
		

> as a warning to all about your 'private' medical forms etc. I've received a big brown envelope, with my address and NI number and details on the front page. but inside are 61 double sided A4 pages with a woman who lives in leeds complete medical details and the results of her tribunal. thats her medical form, her doctors letter, a letter from the mental health trust, her sick notes, her ATOS medical xamination. the complete works. which also i presume means that my details are out there in someone else's hands. how could they let a thing as important as this happen.


----------



## treelover (Feb 23, 2012)

Shocking, the Guardian and maybe even the DM will be interested..

can you post that on the more active thread as well..


----------



## paolo (Feb 23, 2012)

I spoke to my dad yesterday. He's always been small c conservative in mindset, and big C conservative in voting.

Even he's now saying the benefits cuts aren't fair. Blimey. The Tory brand of being the 'nasty party' is gaining strength, at least in my family.


----------



## BigTom (Feb 23, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> A mate has just been sent someone else's ESA decision:


 
Yeah, as TL says, Guardian will probably be interested in this if your mate wants to.. I think Shiv Malik has done ATOS stories before?  He's doing all the workfare stuff right now.
I'm sure smokedout would be interested as well for his blog..


----------



## stuff_it (Feb 23, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Yeah, as TL says, Guardian will probably be interested in this if your mate wants to.. I think Shiv Malik has done ATOS stories before? He's doing all the workfare stuff right now.
> I'm sure smokedout would be interested as well for his blog..


He's already been emailed, as well was Watchdog. Smokedout should feel free to PM me for details.


----------



## 8115 (Feb 26, 2012)

There was a good article by Caitlin Moran in the times yesterday about housing benefit caps.  It's behind the times paywall unfortunately.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Feb 29, 2012)

It is impossible to read the Times online unless you subscribe, which I refuse to do. I am not paying to see all their adverts and 5% journalism.

Unless you know a free way in ...


----------



## UrbaneFox (Feb 29, 2012)

Oh, I see, "paywall" ...

sorry


----------



## BigTom (Feb 29, 2012)

Obviously discussion on the tesco workfare thread but worth noting here that sanctions have been removed from one of the five workfare schemes (the work experience scheme - the least mandatory of them) 

Big concession I think, one that should be mentioned on this campaigning thread


----------



## andrew fanshion (Feb 29, 2012)

Paying people not to work is a bad idea.


----------



## spring-peeper (Feb 29, 2012)

andrew fanshion said:


> Paying people not to work is a bad idea.



Are you saying that you feel that our (Ontario) welfare system is a bad idea??


----------



## Libertad (Feb 29, 2012)

andrew fanshion said:


> Paying people not to work is a bad idea.


 
Not on this thread. Thank you.


----------



## andrew fanshion (Feb 29, 2012)

yes Spring.  My mother raised me and my sisters on a welfare cheque.  I don't 'mind' welfare and I especially don't 'mind' mothers allowance.  I think it would be nice to phase these programs out eventually, but I also don't think it's possible to do it in one day, or maybe even a generation.  There are a lot of people who are dependent on the government.  But I know a lot of my friends / room mates / people i knew who were on welfare spent that money on drugs and booze.  I think that the best welfare program is a good job, and that the war on poverty has created more poor people.


----------



## spring-peeper (Feb 29, 2012)

andrew fanshion said:


> yes Spring.  My mother raised me and my sisters on a welfare cheque.  I don't 'mind' welfare and I especially don't 'mind' mothers allowance.  I think it would be nice to phase these programs out eventually, but I also don't think it's possible to do it in one day, or maybe even a generation.  There are a lot of people who are dependent on the government.  But I know a lot of my friends / room mates / people i knew who were on welfare spent that money on drugs and booze.  I think that the best welfare program is a good job, and that the war on poverty has created more poor people.



Thanks, just curious.  


oh - at the risk of being a pain on this, but could you please start using the "reply" option when replying.  Not only is it easier to see what you are referencing, but it shows up in the alerts and I know you have responded.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 29, 2012)

andrew fanshion said:


> yes Spring. My mother raised me and my sisters on a welfare cheque. I don't 'mind' welfare and I especially don't 'mind' mothers allowance. I think it would be nice to phase these programs out eventually, but I also don't think it's possible to do it in one day, or maybe even a generation. There are a lot of people who are dependent on the government. But I know a lot of my friends / room mates / people i knew who were on welfare spent that money on drugs and booze. I think that the best welfare program is a good job, and that the war on poverty has created more poor people.


I will gladly live without benefits, the day that I can find a job flexible enough, not dodgy, and which reliably pays about £50,000 a year.  Because that's how much I've worked out that I'd need to earn in order to break even on replacing me while I'm working.


----------



## andrew fanshion (Feb 29, 2012)

oh just 50 thousand quid?  is that all?  would you be requesting the nightly rub and tug as well?


----------



## andrew fanshion (Feb 29, 2012)

i think even ID move to the UK for 50,000 pounds a year.  heck i'd be happy if anyone would hire me for a fraction of that.


----------



## treelover (Feb 29, 2012)

andrew fanshion said:


> yes Spring. My mother raised me and my sisters on a welfare cheque. I don't 'mind' welfare and I especially don't 'mind' mothers allowance. I think it would be nice to phase these programs out eventually, but I also don't think it's possible to do it in one day, or maybe even a generation. There are a lot of people who are dependent on the government. But I know a lot of my friends / room mates / people i knew who were on welfare spent that money on drugs and booze. I think that the best welfare program is a good job, and that the war on poverty has created more poor people.


 
Ah, I thought so, you are American, we don't have a 'war on poverty' here..

tea party member?


----------



## spring-peeper (Feb 29, 2012)

treelover said:


> Ah, I thought so, you are American, we don't have a 'war on poverty' here..
> 
> tea party member?




Canadian


----------



## andrew fanshion (Feb 29, 2012)

Canadian.  You brits have never found an American policy you didn't love to copy, so don't try to feed me that bollocks about you not having a war on poverty.  The fabian socialists saw to that.


----------



## treelover (Feb 29, 2012)

andrew fanshion said:


> Canadian. You brits have never found an American policy you didn't love to copy, so don't try to feed me that bollocks about you not having a war on poverty. The fabian socialists saw to that.


 
you what, the US war on poverty was in the 60's, we have had a form of the welfare state since 1911


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 29, 2012)

treelover said:


> you what, the US war on poverty was in the 60's, we have had a form of the welfare state since 1911


yeh? the germans have had a form of welfare state since the later nineteenth century. and what about the auld poor law? do you think that wasn't a form of welfare state?


----------



## Greebo (Feb 29, 2012)

andrew fanshion said:


> oh just 50 thousand quid? is that all? would you be requesting the nightly rub and tug as well?


I'm not asking for luxuries - that's how much it would cost me to cover rent, council tax, commuting, workwear, utility bills (seeing as my husband is housebound), approximately 10 prescribed items per month, dentistry, and a Personal Assistant to do the housework, getting the prescription dropped off and collected, shopping, and seeing my husband to & from appointments (as well as carework).  FYI the local council charges households who aren't on benefits £17 an hour for careworkers.  Hence the outrageous amount I'd need to earn.


----------



## andrew fanshion (Feb 29, 2012)

Yah, better to just mooch off everyone else imo.


----------



## treelover (Feb 29, 2012)

Greebo, don't prostrate yourself in front of these RW libertarians...


----------



## Greebo (Feb 29, 2012)

treelover said:


> Greebo, don't prostrate yourself in front of these RW libertarians...


I'm not.


andrew fanshion said:


> Yah, better to just mooch off everyone else imo.


How many hours a week do you do, oh proud worker?  When do you finish work for the day?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 29, 2012)

The Welfare Reform Bill will now be passed. RIP The Welfare State.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 29, 2012)

andrew fanshion said:


> Yah, better to just mooch off everyone else imo.


You sir need to

Fuck Off..!!


----------



## BigTom (Feb 29, 2012)

I really hope the WRB will come back to haunt them in a big, big way.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 29, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> You sir need to
> 
> Fuck Off..!!


Alternatively, he can come here and do my work for 48 hours.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 29, 2012)

BigTom said:


> I really hope the WRB will come back to haunt them in a big, big way.


It will Tom. To many will be affected for it not to. The fight is going on. Many will be looking for help and advice. The WRB and the NHS are double Maggies (spit) poll tax and many times more brutal.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 29, 2012)

This was online before the old lords had risen from their seats tonight.




> *No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron*
> 
> * Britain will never again put up with families “languishing on the dole and dependency” after an overhaul of the benefit system, David Cameron has said. *


Published at 8:53PM GMT 29 Feb 2012. The cunts were ready and waiting. 

Rage is what I feel right now. Past the tears and dissapointment stage.. 
These bastards have to go..!!


----------



## treelover (Feb 29, 2012)

'Friday’s DWP report on _Fraud and Error in the Benefit System _really ought to get more coverage.
With this publication we now have figures for the whole of the financial year 2010/11, and they show:

0.8 per cent of benefit spending is overpaid due to fraud, amounting to £1.2 billion, and
This proportion is the same as in 2009/10.
If we look at the estimates for different benefits, they are:

Retirement Pension 0.0 per cent;
Incapacity Benefit 0.3 per cent;
Disability Living Allowance 0.5 per cent;
Council Tax Benefit 1.3 per cent;
Housing Benefit 1.4 per cent;
Pension Credit 1.6 per cent;
Income Support 2.8 per cent;
Jobseeker’s Allowance 3.4 per cent;
Carer’s Allowance 3.9 per cent.
Look at the figures for disability benefits, see how low the figures are.
Remember them next time the BBC is running one of its 30 minute hate programmes, pushing the idea that every disabled person on benefits is a fraudster.'

richard excell

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/02/26/new-figures-show-low-level-of-benefit-fraud/



New DWP figures, incredible, pensioners are supposedly fiddling more than disabled people, watch out OAP's, the media barrage will begin soon..

btw, as i have said before the misinformation and smear campaign the various Govt's launched are very reminscent of the propaganda campaigns of the old Eastern Bloc,


----------



## purenarcotic (Feb 29, 2012)

I just can't believe the WRB has passed. 

This is beyond depressing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 29, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> I just can't believe the WRB has passed.
> 
> This is beyond depressing.


be the wra now


----------



## BigTom (Mar 6, 2012)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...floors-Welcome-Cameron-s-Brave-New-World.html

Sonia Poulton in the Daily Mail.. I don't know if this is just online or if she is there as a commentator from the opposite side of the political specturm as papers often have.. but she's written a few very good articles around welfare state/disability



> For millions of people, a Social Fund loan - yes it was repayable, it wasn't a gift - was the difference between sleeping on a bed or a floor. The MP's who voted to banish this have no understanding of such destitution and poverty. Not while they are able to subsidise the purchase of their country mansions with their parliamentary expenses.


 
The whole article - and it's pretty long - has this tone.. read it..


----------



## Greebo (Mar 6, 2012)

BigTom said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...floors-Welcome-Cameron-s-Brave-New-World.html
> 
> <snip>The whole article - and it's pretty long - has this tone.. read it..


Thanks for the heads up, I might even bring myself to buy a copy.


----------



## Roadkill (Mar 6, 2012)

Sonia Poulton is a rare voice of sanity atm.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 6, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Thanks for the heads up, I might even bring myself to buy a copy.


 
It's not in print  just look at it on the website.. perhaps if they are getting lots of hits for her articles they will give her print space


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 6, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> Oh, I see, "paywall" ...
> 
> sorry


Did you think it was a town in Wales?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2012)

BigTom said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...floors-Welcome-Cameron-s-Brave-New-World.html
> 
> Sonia Poulton in the Daily Mail.. I don't know if this is just online or if she is there as a commentator from the opposite side of the political specturm as papers often have.. but she's written a few very good articles around welfare state/disability
> 
> ...


 
Why aren't her articles in the printed version? 

I reckon she'll get the boot soon for sticking up for scroungers.  It's just not Daily Mail stuff is it


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2012)

and I want to know why Cameron claimed DLA for his sick child if he didn't need it and he's so anti-welfare.  Are there any articles anywhere explaining why he claimed it?


----------



## BigTom (Mar 6, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Why aren't her articles in the printed version?
> 
> I reckon she'll get the boot soon for sticking up for scroungers. It's just not Daily Mail stuff is it


 
She said that she has some stuff (femail and something else) in print.  There's just a lot more space online isn't there, so not everything on line will make it into the print edition.



Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and I want to know why Cameron claimed DLA for his sick child if he didn't need it and he's so anti-welfare. Are there any articles anywhere explaining why he claimed it?


 
Cos he's a selfish cunt?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2012)

BigTom said:


> She said that she has some stuff (femail and something else) in print. There's just a lot more space online isn't there, so not everything on line will make it into the print edition.
> 
> 
> 
> Cos he's a selfish cunt?


 
Yes, I realise that, but it'll never get to all those readers who buy the printed version and believe all the scrounger stories that are in the printed version will it?  

Well we know he's a selfish cunt but I was more interested if anyone (be it disabled, or a member of the press) has asked *why *he accepted the DLA for his kid


----------



## BigTom (Mar 6, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yes, I realise that, but it'll never get to all those readers who buy the printed version and believe all the scrounger stories that are in the printed version will it?
> 
> Well we know he's a selfish cunt but I was more interested if anyone (be it disabled, or a member of the press) has asked *why *he accepted the DLA for his kid


 
nope, which is a shame, I bet that lots of people who read the print edition don't read online.. 
as for Cameron, I've never seen anyone ask him, though I'm sure I've seen it mentioned in more than a few places. I doubt he would answer.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2012)

BigTom said:


> nope, which is a shame, I bet that lots of people who read the print edition don't read online..
> as for Cameron, I've never seen anyone ask him, though I'm sure I've seen it mentioned in more than a few places. I doubt he would answer.


 
He'd probably claim one of his aides or social services or whoever told him to claim it as the child was entitled and he was too busy to argue he didn't need it


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 6, 2012)

BigTom said:


> nope, which is a shame, I bet that lots of people who read the print edition don't read online..
> as for Cameron, I've never seen anyone ask him, though I'm sure I've seen it mentioned in more than a few places. I doubt he would answer.





Minnie_the_Minx said:


> He'd probably claim one of his aides or social services or whoever told him to claim it as the child was entitled and he was too busy to argue he didn't need it


More likely he felt that as he was a taxpayer (rather than a 'scrounger') that he was entitled to it, unlike people who have no money.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> More likely he felt that as he was a taxpayer (rather than a 'scrounger') that he was entitled to it, unlike people who have no money.


 
You mean unlike the people who were paying taxes before their accident/illness?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2012)

Any of the females pregnant?  Any of the men wanting to go on some celebrity show?  Who's due to take a break for one reason or another?


----------



## UrbaneFox (Mar 6, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> More likely he felt that as he was a taxpayer (rather than a 'scrounger') that he was entitled to it, unlike people who have no money.


 
Or, Please, don't use Ivan to try to score cheap political points. My wife and I get very upset by such opportunistic cruelty.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Any of the females pregnant? Any of the men wanting to go on some celebrity show? Who's due to take a break for one reason or another?


 
oops!  That's meant to be on the Corrie thread


----------



## treelover (Mar 7, 2012)

On PMQ, in response to a very angry LP MP(surprised) who asked about changes to DLA, Cameron said that the new medical test will be better than the old form, he again used 'his experience' of filling in the form to claim for Ivan, does he really believe this or is he using his family to bolster his case?


----------



## treelover (Mar 7, 2012)

'Benefit fraud is indeed a serious and costly issue for the UK – as the Sun trumpets, fraudulent claims cost the economy £1.2bn a year. Yet, as someone who has been sworn at, spat at and intimidated by strangers in public, I know first-hand the ramifications of members of the public feeling they are qualified to make a judgement on disability. How many of the Sun's readers who have been left seething about those milking the system are actually fully armed with the facts about disabled claimants?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/07/sun-beat-the-cheat-benefits


the consequences of the media's, (inc the BBC) demonisation, misinformation, smears and lies campaigns against benefit claimants, especially sick and disabled ones..


----------



## UrbaneFox (Mar 7, 2012)

treelover said:


> On PMQ, in response to a very angry LP MP(surprised) who asked about changes to DLA, Cameron said that the new medical test will be better than the old form, he again used 'his experience' of filling in the form to claim for Ivan, does he really believe this or is he using his family to bolster his case?


 

He blagged his way through it claiming that PIP would prevent claimants from having to fill in huge forms, and remembered the misery that completing the forms caused the Cameron household.

So he can use Ivan when it suits him. His thoughtful attitude to claimants enabled him to skate over the fact that he and Samantha are multi-millionaires.


----------



## Urbanblues (Mar 10, 2012)

Years of vilification within the pages of the scab press and sadly on our screens via poorly researched and sensationalist seeking TV programmers has led to an almost wholesale demonization of disabled people. This demonization has been so thorough that this government felt it safe to drive through its draconian Welfare Reform. Indeed, they were so supremely confident that they swept aside even the amendments that came from their own tame members of the House of Lords.

Disability benefit fraud is even lower than the overall £1.2 billion annually. Combined IB and DLA fraud amount to £80 million; and the entire take-up of IS is £190 million, of which disability payments are only a small percentage.

Yet, disabled benefits' claimants, according to Michael Howard, are the cause of the country's fiscal deficit.

I'm no mathematician nor arithmetician, yet I'm able to calculate that the billions (anything up to £120) lost in tax fraud annually could eradicate the fiscal deficit fairly quickly; and, that, if:
1.  Successive governments had seriously tackled the too easily exploitable gaping tax loopholes;
2.  Governments had put into place progressive tax systems;

That our economy might not be in such a parlous state today.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2012)

treelover said:


> On PMQ, in response to a very angry LP MP(surprised) who asked about changes to DLA, Cameron said that the new medical test will be better than the old form, he again used 'his experience' of filling in the form to claim for Ivan, does he really believe this or is he using his family to bolster his case?


 
Shouldn't really be using it to bolster his case considering he shouldn't have been claiming it. Not like he needed the money

eta: as mentioned by urbanefox which I missed


----------



## _angel_ (Mar 10, 2012)

treelover said:


> On PMQ, in response to a very angry LP MP(surprised) who asked about changes to DLA, Cameron said that the new medical test will be better than the old form, he again used 'his experience' of filling in the form to claim for Ivan, does he really believe this or is he using his family to bolster his case?


I really wouldn't mind him claiming DLA were it not for the fact he's trying to remove it from so many people who aren't millionaires already and need it to live on. 
Is it being means tested?


----------



## UrbaneFox (Mar 10, 2012)

No, it isn't being means tested.


----------



## Ld222 (Mar 14, 2012)




----------



## BigTom (Mar 15, 2012)

Is that in London?

e2a ignore me, I should ahve just looked at your location.. it'll be in Derry I assume?


----------



## Greebo (Mar 17, 2012)

booteller said:


> spam spamity spam spam spam


----------



## ayatollah (Mar 17, 2012)

andrew fanshion said:


> yes Spring. My mother raised me and my sisters on a welfare cheque. I don't 'mind' welfare and I especially don't 'mind' mothers allowance. I think it would be nice to phase these programs out eventually, but I also don't think it's possible to do it in one day, or maybe even a generation. There are a lot of people who are dependent on the government. But I know a lot of my friends / room mates / people i knew who were on welfare spent that money on drugs and booze. I think that the best welfare program is a good job, and that the war on poverty has created more poor people.


 
If this sad childhood tale of young Andrew is true (and of course it could be complete bollocks) the slightly older (about 16 ?)Andrew seems to be wishing his younger self could have lived in really dire, starvation-level  poverty, and his mother reduced to searching though waste bins behind shops to feed the ungrateful scrote !  This type of Right wing masochism I must say , completely foxes me ... Wealthy by birth young Rightists  with the proverbial silver spoon formly wedged in gob , I can understand... but this stuff... seriously trapped  in some form of "denial" about ones sad upbringing  Andrew ? Your sainted Mum must be SOOO proud of what a ghastly right wing little git you have turned into..


----------



## savoloysam (Mar 21, 2012)

After the "clamping down" on ESA and incapacity claims, Job seekers you're next in line. All sorts of nasty backward bully boy tactics ahead, like picking on the short term unemployed because they will be seen as easy targets and "more likely" to sign off and ease the figures. Sanctions are going to increase massively and are to be thrown around much liberally. Nasty times ahead.


----------



## treelover (Mar 28, 2012)

On a related note, interesting to see chief poverty pimp, Darra Singh (CEO DWP) interviewed today as head of the Riots Inquiry and benignly partly blaming unemployment/social conditions as a factor in the riots, under him his department has partly helped create the conditions and took harrassment of the poor, unemployed, etc into new levels

Btw, going by his threads, is he a Smiths fan, rockabilly, etc?


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Mar 30, 2012)

I have just been told that Galloway has won this election. It is a rumour from Twitter. Exit poll or something more substantial?

Sorry posted in the wrong thread using mobile phone.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2012)

*32 die a week after failing test for new incapacity benefit*​More than a thousand sickness benefit claimants died last year after being told to get a job, we can reveal.​We've highlighted worries about the controversial medical tests for people claiming Employment Support Allowance which are being used to slash the country's welfare bill.​The Government has boasted that more than half of new claimants are found "fit to work" - failing to mention that over 300,000 have appealed the decision and almost 40% have won.​ 

http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2012/04/32-die-a-week-after-failing-in.html

This is truly appalling, where is the Labour Party, how can the Lib dems support this?

rheotorical question...


----------



## audiotech (Apr 10, 2012)




----------



## audiotech (Apr 18, 2012)




----------



## treelover (Apr 30, 2012)

*Calum's List*

*This Welfare Reform Death Scandal Has To Stop*

*http://calumslist.org/*

Documenting the human cost of the welfare reforms....


----------



## BigTom (May 14, 2012)

500k to lose DLA

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9263453/500000-to-lose-disability-benefit.html

Feel the rage. IDS tells lie after lie after lie after lie.



> Half a million people are set to lose disability benefits as the Government pushes ahead with plans to rid the system of abuse and fraud, Iain Duncan Smith says.


 
DLA fraud is 0.5% / £60m. The cuts are 20% / £2.24bn.  For this to be proportionate, there would need to be 100 million DLA claimants. http://www.benefitfraud.org.uk/total-benefit-fraud/index.html 



> ain Duncan Smith says that the number of claimants has risen by 30 percent in recent years


 
No - it's risen by 13%: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmworpen/1493/1493vw12.htm



> Losing a limb should not automatically entitle people to a pay-out, he suggests.


 
It doesn't according to Anne McGuire MP: https://twitter.com/#!/AnneMcGuireMP/status/201968430985920512 



> Under the reform plans, the existing benefit will be replaced with a simpler “more focused” allowance and* only those* medically assessed to be in genuine need of support will continue to qualify.


 
DLA requires medical assessment



> “Third problem was lifetime awards.


 
Lifetime awards do not exist.  Awards can be made indefinitely for conditions which do not change or are degenerative.  Is there really a need to reassess people with an unchanging/degenerative condition? What do they expect? "Has your leg grown back?" "Has your sight returned?" ffs.  



> They were just allowed to fester.”


 
gah! people on a benefit designed to help them to work, many of whom are working and need DLA in order to continue to work are not festering.  It's fucking disgraceful to characterise those on out of work disability benefits in this way anyway, but for those whose benefits are what allow them to work is just *rage*

grrr.


----------



## treelover (May 14, 2012)

government in trouble, turn to scapegoats, predictable...

good analysis..

btw, they(the media) don't seem to be taking Levinson into account when it comes to reporting accurately and fairly on benefit issues..


----------



## BigTom (May 16, 2012)

Another £25bn of welfare cuts from 2014, because everyone in part time work is only not working full time because of the benefits they get, yeah. and if we take those benefits away then they'll get full time work cos they'll want the extra money.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ron-considers-extra-25bn-of-welfare-cuts.html 



> A Downing Street source said: “There is some really radical thinking going on around welfare, which is the most successful area of government policy so far. Why should people only work part time? Why are young people who are out of work not living at home? Why are we incentivising people to have more children?
> 
> “The Prime Minister is very keen on the next stage of welfare reform and there are some properly worked out plans which have been submitted by Steve [Hilton} before he left.”
> 
> Another senior Government source said: “What we are engaged in is the mark-two stage of welfare reform. Its how do you take the universal credit into the next phase… encourage people to work longer hours, not just languish on 10, 15 or 20 hours.


 
Also talking about pensioners, I guess because the state pension is just far too generous really.


----------



## BigTom (May 17, 2012)

Good article on Left Foot Forward today

http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010...penditure-and-why-we-should-be-spending-more/

The paradoxical stability of welfare expenditure and why we should be spending more on benefits at the moment.  Arguing that levels of benefit spending are actually low for the level of unemployment we have, and there is no economic case for benefit cuts.


----------



## treelover (May 20, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/...benefit-cuts?commentpage=last#end-of-comments

Tories bounce single parents, no notice given of more brutal changes, expect more like this, they see welfare as the Tory class warriors saw monetarism, a tool to undermine solidarity, whip people into line, etc, as well as saving money for the treasury..

DWP official ''When we want them to tap dance, they will tap dance''


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 20, 2012)

treelover said:


> DWP official ''When we want them to tap dance, they will tap dance''


 
Has that been Tweeted/Twatted?


----------



## BigTom (May 23, 2012)

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/20...lity-assessment-regime-with-immediate-effect/

BMA GPs vote unanimously to end ATOS WCA regime..


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2012)

Another big package on welfare reform on Newsnight, they seem to be push the line that massive reform of welfare is necessary, not that more decent jobs, etc are...


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2012)

BigTom said:


> http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/20...lity-assessment-regime-with-immediate-effect/
> 
> BMA GPs vote unanimously to end ATOS WCA regime..


 
Good news, incredible to think it was the a member, a doctor linked to the small grass roots welfare group: black triangle that initiated all this...


----------



## treelover (May 27, 2012)

'URGENT! Give the lawyers YOUR story! MHRN get hearing for Judicial Review of WCA on June 29th
by JJ 
An application has been made by members of the Mental Health Resistance Network for permission to have a Judicial Review of the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) and a judge has decided that there should be a hearing to decide whether to grant us the Judicial Review.
The hearing will happen at the Royal Courts of Justice in the Strand in London on Friday 29th June. We won’t know until the day before what time it will be heard.
We URGENTLY NEED YOUR STORY: PLEASE CLICK ON THE LINK: HERE 
We can assist to get your experience of the DWP/AtoS Work Capability Assesment (WCA) to the legal team if you post in the thread. We will ensure that YOUR STORY will be entered into the 'bundle' that the lawyers are 'Armed' with when they enter into court to argue the case.
SO, PLEASE MAKE CONTACT WITH US! Justice cannot be achieved without YOUR help!

It is MHRN who have pushed this through, not any big charity -remember most activism is coming from grassroots groups-rather than well funded charities who like to try to claim the credit.
Note: links may not work for BT users if that is the case go to BlackTriangleCampaign Facebook page

Lets support MHRN as much as we can with this great achievement on 29th June-hopefully the first of many challenges to the corrupt WCA


mental health activists given hearing about option to challenge the draconian WCA...


----------



## BigTom (May 28, 2012)

http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2012/05/28/new-figures-show-low-level-of-benefit-fraud/

New figures for benefit fraud.. overall 0.8% or £1.2bn, same as last year.. worth going and looking at the breakdown of figures.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 5, 2012)

> Spina bifida sufferer Nicola Parnell has to use a wheelchair and is the size of a 10-year-old – so was horrified when told to prove that she was disabled.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...e-she-is-disabled-862970#.T843BZP1CEc.twitter


----------



## audiotech (Jun 6, 2012)

'Fake beggars earning up to £600 per day' is the latest headline grabber up here:

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....arget-clubbers-in-leeds-city-centre-1-4616461


----------



## belboid (Jun 6, 2012)

audiotech said:


> 'Fake beggars earning up to £600 per day' is the latest headline grabber up here:
> 
> http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....arget-clubbers-in-leeds-city-centre-1-4616461


fucks sake, and thats a quote from a shelter manager, not just a dumb cop/politician.

"In one of the most popular places for begging, 600 people will walk past and if they all give £1 that’s £600 in one day.” - but they wont all give £1, you thick fuck Wilson!!


----------



## audiotech (Jun 6, 2012)

Having worked in hostels in the past, I know the type well.


----------



## treelover (Jun 7, 2012)

do you mean the shelter manager?


----------



## treelover (Jun 7, 2012)

flyboy said:


> This started appearing last week and is beyond nasty
> 
> *Council Tax benefit* to be replaced by *Council Tax Support* schemes in April 2013.
> 
> ...


 

Flyboy, could you post up a brief summary people can circulate?, I suspect most people aren't aware this is coming...

tx..


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 12, 2012)




----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 13, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Diary of a Benefit Scrounger
> Benefit Scrounging Scum


 
Worth bumping this everywhere you can and publicising it more via Twitter etc.  Hopefully more papers will pick up on it 

http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/


----------



## audiotech (Jun 13, 2012)

> Karen Sherlock, a disability activist connected to the Spartacus campaign, whose kidneys were failing and who was waiting to be put on dialysis. In spite of her very serious condition, Karen was placed in the work-related activity group, meaning that her benefit would soon stop altogether because of the time limit on contribution-based ESA. Karen spent many months fighting that decision. Two weeks ago she finally won her exhausting battle with the DWP and was placed in the support group.


This week she died of a heart attack. A fellow campaigner said of Karen:



> She was terrified. Beside herself with fear. She lived her last months desperately scared that her family would not survive the onslaught it faced. . . . The system failed her and she spent her last precious moments in this world fighting. For herself, for her family and for others. She was one of us. She was Spartacus. And now she's dead and she died in fear because the system failed her, because cruel men refused to listen and powerful men refused to act. She spent her last months fighting for the "security" of £96 a week and the reassurance that it couldn't be taken away.


Source: 'Benefits and Work'


----------



## audiotech (Jun 13, 2012)

> Paul Mickleburgh, one of the world’s longest surviving kidney dialysis patients is hooked up to a dialysis machine for five hours, three days a week. He’s also had cancer and pneumonia and suffers from spontaneous internal bleeding, brittle bones a twisted bowel and agonising joint pains as a result of his renal treatment. He’s had four failed kidney donations. To top it all off, Paul has had 14 heart attacks in the last five years and believes his last attack was caused in part by the stress of trying to deal with the DWP. Sadly, patients with chronic kidney disease are actually more likely to die from associated heart disease than from kidney failure itself. In spite of this, Paul has been placed in the work-related activity group, meaning that he is someone who is expected to return to the workplace in the reasonably near future. Paul’s request for this dreadful decision to be looked at again came back with the same result – he should be moving towards a return to work.


 
Source: 'Benefits and Work'


----------



## stuff_it (Jun 14, 2012)

From 'Your Southend' on FB:





> Hundreds of people queued outside the Aldi supermarket on Eastern Avenue, Southend, yesterday afternoon for a recruitment event.
> 
> One girl, a 21-year-old university graduate, queued at the supermarket for 3 hours, for a chance to be considered for a job role at the store.
> 
> ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jun 14, 2012)

I'm surprised there wasn't a heavy police presence with a crowd that size.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 14, 2012)

See, easy to find a job if you want one. Not easy to secure one.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 15, 2012)

Universal credit "delayed" due to IT "problems" apparently.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 15, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Universal credit "delayed" due to IT "problems" apparently.


That (as anyone who's ever had the joy of writing software for the DWP or other government departments will tell you), is hardly surprising. Instead of paying for something bespoke which works well, they insist on "something cheaper" and far less suitable being extensively patched until it almost (but not quite) fits the requirements.

In the end, it costs more the the bespoke option by the time you allow for extra work hours taken up debugging and repatching, not to mention lost work and lost manhours when part of the system crashes on a regular basis.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 17, 2012)

"Wealth gushing up..."

The Missing Billions UK Uncut.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 18, 2012)

Social housing tenants facing poverty due to benefit changes from next April.




> Iain Sim, chief executive of Coast & Country, one of the largest housing companies in the north-east of England, said it had 2,500 “under-occupiers” but only 16 spare one-bedroom homes on its books


http://digg.com/newsbar/Politics/so...y_from_benefits_shake_up_social_welfare_union


----------



## BigTom (Jun 18, 2012)

Karen Buck MP said:
			
		

> Just seen invoice for Bed + Breakfast for working mum who lost flat as Housing Benefit cut. First 28 days= £10050. That's value for money!


 
https://twitter.com/KarenPBuckMP/status/213547379708805121

 and I wonder how often this will be repeated, with supposed cuts ending up costing more money.
I would guess though that this £10k comes out of a different pot of money to housing benefit so IDS won't give a fuck as his budget will still show savings, even though it ends up costing the taxpayer more overall.


----------



## treelover (Jun 21, 2012)

*Jobcentre bosses warn of suicide risk among benefit claimants*

An internal email sent by senior managers warns that ill-handling of benefit changes could have 'profound results' for vulnerable claimants

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2...t-claimants?commentpage=all#start-of-comments

'From Cif: Unfortunately, the worst has already happened. A friend of a friend recently went for a disability benefits review, as a result of which all of his disability benefits were withdrawn. He was totally distraught and didn't know what to do. Because he had schizophrenia he was in no position to ask for the help and support he needed and so didn't get any. A couple of days after the withdrawal of his benefits he was found hanging from a tree in his local park. The withdrawal of his benefits was the only thing that had changed - his life was very stable until that happened but it must have felt like everything was turned upside down. A civilised society should be treating its most vulnerable members as best as possible but then I'm beginning to wonder whether I'm living in a civilised society now.'​ 
'About a month ago there was the funeral near where I live of a guy I know (knew) who had his disability benefits stopped on the grounds that there was nothing wrong with him - although I can tell you that he had really bad mental health issues and was not exactly employable. He hung himself.​It is already happening.'​​ 
There is an article today in the Guardian about a leaked email from JC managers which emphasises concerns about possible suicides of claimants, etc, the comments after the article indicate that the level of actual suicides may be much higher than the thirty documented on activist websites, political class, blood on all your hands, J'accuse!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 21, 2012)

BigTom said:


> https://twitter.com/KarenPBuckMP/status/213547379708805121
> 
> and I wonder how often this will be repeated, with supposed cuts ending up costing more money.
> I would guess though that this £10k comes out of a different pot of money to housing benefit so IDS won't give a fuck as his budget will still show savings, even though it ends up costing the taxpayer more overall.


 
I'm really shit at maths, but that reads to me as TEN THOUSAND AND FIFTY POUNDS


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 21, 2012)

treelover said:


> *Jobcentre bosses warn of suicide risk among benefit claimants*
> 
> An internal email sent by senior managers warns that ill-handling of benefit changes could have 'profound results' for vulnerable claimants
> 
> ...


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 21, 2012)

BigTom said:


> https://twitter.com/KarenPBuckMP/status/213547379708805121
> 
> and I wonder how often this will be repeated, with supposed cuts ending up costing more money.
> I would guess though that this £10k comes out of a different pot of money to housing benefit so IDS won't give a fuck as his budget will still show savings, even though it ends up costing the taxpayer more overall.


£10k for a month in a B&B!!!!!! 

Someone's making a lot of money there, and it's not the claimant


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jun 21, 2012)

£360 a night..!! Yet it's the HA claimants that take the grief.


----------



## yield (Jun 21, 2012)

Madness innit. All this while hundreds of thousand of homes lie empty.

And thousands of people who worked in construction without a job.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 21, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> £10k for a month in a B&B!!!!!!
> 
> Someone's making a lot of money there, and it's not the claimant


 
It has to be a typo and is probably £1,050 a month


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 21, 2012)

yield said:


> Madness innit. All this while hundreds of thousand of homes lie empty.
> 
> And thousands of people who worked in construction without a job.


 
and how many of these properties are 1-bedroomed homes for all the people that will need them because they can't afford to pay for a spare room that they're now supposed to pay for?

I read a report the other day posted up here so have a good idea anyway


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It has to be a typo and is probably £1,050 a month


Even so, that has to more than rent on a property, surely? Hardly cost-effective if it is.


----------



## BigTom (Jun 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It has to be a typo and is probably £1,050 a month


 
No typo - go and look at her twitter page and you'll see these replies she's made to people asking if that 10k is right:
https://twitter.com/#!/KarenPBuckMP



> really £370 a day b&b, is family staying at Ritz?
> 
> No they aren't. They and many others like them are staying wherever Council can find emergency accommodation


 


> that equates to approximately £359 per day!! Where is this B&B? You can stay at the Paris Ritz for that kind of money.
> 
> It is eye-wateringly dear to put homeless families up in London hotels. B&B poor option economically + terrible for kids.





> what B&B charges £360 a night? Seems you might have an extra zero in there somewhere...
> 
> No extra zero! Bed and Breakfast accommodation in London tear-jerkingly dear- but there is a shortage of emergency homes.


 


> which B&B is charging £360 a night? Someone needs to do some shopping around.
> 
> These families are being placed by Westminster Council.There is a grave shortage of temporary accommodation in London!


 
also on the same day she tweeted this:



> aren Buck MP @KarenPBuckMP
> 
> Depressingly, another mum in my advice surgery. Victim of domestic violence, 10 weeks so far in Bed+Breakfast. £6k for first month + rising.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 21, 2012)

treelover said:


> There is an article today in the Guardian about a leaked email from JC managers which emphasises concerns about possible suicides of claimants, etc, the comments after the article indicate that the level of actual suicides may be much higher than the thirty documented on activist websites, political class, blood on all your hands, J'accuse!


 
Back in March it was reported "in internet circles" that there were 103 such suicides.​​http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...floors-Welcome-Cameron-s-Brave-New-World.html​​Then, reported in April, there's the 32 a week dying after failing the 'Work Capability Assessment'.​​http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2012/04/32-die-a-week-after-failing-in.html​​


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## audiotech (Jun 21, 2012)

Around fifteen years ago it was £350 per week for hostel accommodation - no breakfast - no meals at all in fact.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 21, 2012)

How the hell are these B&Bs getting away with charging such prices.  They're more expensive than 5* hotels


----------



## BigTom (Jun 22, 2012)

One of the tweets asked how many children there were, but there wasn't a reply, so might be something to do with that?  Are councils allowed to use hotels for emergency accommodation?  It'd seem strange not to put people up in a travelodge type hotel which would be cheaper even if you are needing 3 or 4 rooms.. or perhaps there are no hotels within the area that the council are required to house them?

I agree it's mad amounts of money that I can't really comprehend how it's got that high, I bet it's logical once you see the detail, not something I know anything about though.. 
I bet it's a story that's being repeated - housing benefit cuts -> eviction -> expensive rehousing -> rise in cost for taxpayer ... but because the higher cost comes out of the council budget, IDS doesn't care because he's still cutting his budget at DWP.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Jun 22, 2012)

*Demos: welfare reform has cost disabled people and their carers £500 million so far*
Demos has found that since its inception 14 months ago welfare reform has cost disabled people and their carers £500 million. These findings are part of the 'Disability in Austerity' project Demos has undertaken with support from Scope. 
Read more *here.*


For info, I get a wretched weekly update from the Welfare to Work gangsters. It depresses me, but I managed to screw up the courage to open it today, and saw the above.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 22, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> <snip>For info, I get a wretched weekly update from the Welfare to Work gangsters. It depresses me, but I managed to screw up the courage to open it today, and saw the above.


Thanks for that, I'll check it after I've grabbed a drink.


----------



## ash (Jun 22, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Thanks for that, I'll check it after I've grabbed a drink.



Having read it I'd make it a double !!!


----------



## Greebo (Jun 22, 2012)

ash said:


> Having read it I'd make it a double !!!


You might, I prefer not to drink enough to remove the anger.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 22, 2012)

ash said:


> Having read it I'd make it a double !!!


 
I skimmed most of it as it's a long read but read the case studies of the people that they'd followed

Depressing stuff


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jun 22, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> How the hell are these B&Bs getting away with charging such prices. They're more expensive than 5* hotels


Because they can.. The fuckwitted cuts hit those who need a roof.. not those who provide a roof..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jun 22, 2012)

Yet again the Tories fire in like fuckwits destabalising EVERY fucking thing.. and no mater how many of us say noooooo.. the cunts do anyway.. A lot of us were o fucked off when the condems took power..  it's seriously worse than we imagined...


----------



## Wolveryeti (Jun 25, 2012)

CPI too generous to those on benefits - according to Cameron:



> This year we increased benefits by 5.2 per cent.
> That was in line with the inflation rate last September.
> But it was almost twice as much as the average wage increase.
> Given that so many working people are struggling to make ends meet…
> ...


----------



## BigTom (Jun 25, 2012)

Workfare is in court tomorrow and wednesday, judicial reviews for Sector Based Work Academies and Community Action Programme.

9:30am at the Royal Courts, WC2A 2LL if anyone can make it for a demo & to show support for the two plaintiffs.. http://www.facebook.com/events/489041871122439/

I think this is just a case of putting forward skeleton arguments and the judge deciding it should go on for a full hearing, but I'm not sure.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 25, 2012)

Wolveryeti said:


> CPI too generous to those on benefits - according to Cameron:


 
Cameron's divisive tone between those in work and those not is continuing apace.


----------



## BigTom (Jun 28, 2012)

A4e managed to get 3.5% of people into work in the first 10 months of the workprogramme...

http://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive-a4e-finds-jobs-for-3-5-per-cent-of-job-seekers



> Data obtained exclusively by Channel 4 News shows that the welfare to work company A4e secured sustainable jobs for just 3.5 per cent of its job-seekers under the government's flagship Work Programme.
> 
> 
> The data, which both the company and the government have refused to release, reveals a company failing to meet the minimum targets set for it by the government in the first year of the Work Programme.


 
Surely the end must be nigh for A4e.. I wonder how other providers are doing in comparison?


----------



## BigTom (Jun 28, 2012)

Also, we're doing a one-day conference in Birmingham on Tues 10th July

http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=1192

Not just workfare, there's a session on universal credit and a more general claimants rights session.  The one being run by consent.me.uk should be really good for claimants, a practical workshop on your rights.


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2012)

She is buying up half the bars and pubs in south yorkshire and derbyshire

and sponsoring Tramlines!


----------



## audiotech (Jun 29, 2012)

*Are nine out of ten spending cuts still to come?*











http://fullfact.org/factchecks/nine_out_of_ten_88_94_spending_cuts_still_to_come-27489


----------



## BigTom (Jul 1, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jun/30/david-cameron-work-firms-benefits



> Richard Whittell from Corporate Watch said the Work Programme appeared to be focused on slashing benefit rather than putting people into work. "These figures give the lie to the government's claims its welfare reforms are about helping people into work," he said.
> 
> "*By the time it's finished, more people will have been sanctioned by the Work Programme than properly employed through it*. Every month thousands of people are having their only source of income stopped and being pushed into hardship. Companies like Serco, Working Links and G4S may not be very good at finding people suitable work, but they're dab hands at punishing them." The private firms say they make their referrals to job centres in line with government guidelines.


 
More benefit sanctions! That's what's needed 

here's the corporate watch article: http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=4371

500,000 sanctions placed in 2011, half a million people going without money for food for at least 2 weeks.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 1, 2012)

BigTom said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jun/30/david-cameron-work-firms-benefits
> <snip>
> 500,000 sanctions placed in 2011, half a million people going without money for food for at least 2 weeks.


FFS!


----------



## treelover (Jul 1, 2012)

'The number of cases has risen from 139,000 benefit cuts under Labour in 2009 to more than 500,000 in 2011.'


Thats a massive amount, corporate power really is dominant when it comes to those who have none.Lets be clear, the power of a private company or an individual to effectively take away that a persons livelihood is akin to the casual labour of the 30's or even the Beadle in the workhouse, Dickens would certainly recognise these circumstances

There has been an effective state campaign to demonise and undermine some of the most vulnerable people in the Uk as well as people recently made redundant, ir is redolent of the anti-shirker campaigns of the old Eastern Bloc regimes..

There really should be more opposition to this from the labour movement, etc such as it is...


----------



## 8115 (Jul 3, 2012)

Petition against proposal to cut housing benefits for under 25s (if that's your sort of thing - petitions, I mean).

http://www.centrepoint.org.uk/cuts


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 3, 2012)

audiotech said:


> *Are nine out of ten spending cuts still to come?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
scary


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 3, 2012)

*Lazy jobseekers to lose benefits for up to three years*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-cash-to-pay-for-roads-fail-to-get-going.html

One of the comments was interesting though:




> LAZY JOBSEEKERS.this is pure propaganda.we dont say ALL MPs are cheating on expenses,therefore it is fair to assume that,NOT ALL jobseekers are lazy.*last wednesday i was invited to give my opinion,concerning benefit reforms,to the GLOUCESTER CITIZEN.i quoted facts and figures,broadcast on BBC R4 YOU AND YOURS,which pointed out that one of the companies ,employed by the government to remove benefits from the likes of the disabled,was itself under investigation and was set to gain £13`500 per victim removed off benefits.the CITIZEN removed my comments and told me i had broken the rules and suspended me from the sight,instructing me not to discuss this with anyone.s*ome hope.if you read the comments in the CITIZEN ,you will see that pro government posts are allowed to remain,FREE PRESS,only if you agree to put their view it would seem.by the way the CITIZEN ,has just been voted best western newspaper,i wonder why.all jobseekers are not lazy,many have lost their jobs because of government/bankers policies and the government are making the likes of the disabled,scapegoats. money was soon found for a phoney royal celebration,which lasted a few days,but our loss of services libraries,elderly care,youthclubs etc,will last forever.we are all being manipulated ,as my point concerning the CITIZEN proves,but i wont be censored,i have the right to speak under MAGNA CARTA SECTION 61 ,which states that everyone has the right to speak and lawfully protest.not in gloucester it seems.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 4, 2012)

I can't remember if there's an ATOS Kills thread somewhere for me to bump with this, so I'll put it here:

Birmingham dad with heart condition found fit for work by ATOS, dies from heart attack soon after.

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/...fter-being-ruled-fit-for-work-97319-31317519/



> A BIRMINGHAM dad died from a serious heart condition – weeks after Government assessors stopped his benefits and ruled he was fit for work.
> 
> Paul Turner, 52, from Erdington, was ordered to find a job in February following a medical review with doctors.
> 
> But he died on April 2 from ischaemic heart disease – caused, his family claim, by the stress of losing his benefits.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 4, 2012)

I've a bookmark full of links to those who have died during or after WCAs. I'll sort them all out today. Been avoiding doing it as it's just so painfully sad, depressing and rage inducing.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I've a bookmark full of links to those who have died during or after WCAs. I'll sort them all out today. Been avoiding doing it as it's just so painfully sad, depressing and rage inducing.


 
I think a new thread should be started for it as all these stories get buried under all the crap in here.  I think you should also have stories of people who have been found fit to work.

A lot of people aren't seeing stories like the Mickleburgh one (who's still alive) and Karen Sherlock who died.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 4, 2012)

I agree minnie. Just working through the links I have. Putting them onto a wordpress page so I can get them in some semblance of order.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 4, 2012)

there's www.Calumslist.org already which has some 

edit: no reason not to start a thread here though


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 4, 2012)

Snap Tom.. Edited.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 4, 2012)

BigTom said:


> there's www.Calumslist.org already which has some
> 
> edit: no reason not to start a thread here though


 
Think there should still be a list of those deemed fit to work who are still alive.  Who knows, they might make it onto Calumslist one day


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 4, 2012)

I'm sorting out those I have in that category too minnie. Sad as fuck.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I'm sorting out those I have in that category too minnie. Sad as fuck.


 
Excellent.  Far too few people know about these cases because the papers are keeping their traps shut about them


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 4, 2012)

PS:  I reckon they need an eye-catching thread title, and I don't think they should even go in current affairs, news forum either as there's plenty of people that don't go in those forums.  However, if you put it in the General Forum a mod may move it


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 4, 2012)

Some of the links I have are no longer active. Including the links to three people from Dumbartonshire who died while being assessed or reassessed.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 4, 2012)

Maybe by asking a question in the thread title, they'll get more attention

Title:  Do you Think these People Should be Working?

Then list the cases, ie.

Paul Mickleburgh:  14 heart attacks in 5 years and 4 kidney transplants etc.

Karen Sherlock:  Summary of illnesses

List the cases and once you've got a response, let people know what happened to them

Or something along those lines.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 4, 2012)

Sounds like a plan minnie. I've n-ty tabs open just now and having to wait long enough till this page opens on refresh.. Roll on my 3G dongle starting again at midnight so I can get a bit more bandwidth.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 4, 2012)

or even, list 10 cases and do a poll, asking if you were an employer, would you:

Employ them
Tell them very politely that you think maybe the job's not suitable for you
Ask them why on earth they aren't getting benefits if they're that sick

I dunno, but you need something that will attract more attention other than "yet another complaint thread about ATOS"


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 4, 2012)

Saving this here incase my pooter gives up.. It's awfy tired and hanging on.. just

Paul Wilcoxson. 21st June 2011

http://www.thisishampshire.net/news...rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Craig Monk 23rd Feb 2012

http://www.thisishampshire.net/news...rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Mark Higgins 13th March 2012

http://www.wigantoday.net/news/loca...-found-hanging-1-4339316#.T186lcXgBMM.twitter

Joseph Palmer 20 Mar 2012

http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/barro...ding-friend-s-body-1.936039?referrerPath=home

Richard Sanderson 25th Aug 2011

http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/..._committed_suicide_after_housing_benefit_cut/

Martin Rust 24th April 2012

http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news...to_work_fears_1_1358116#.T5ekzfBBjW0.facebook

Paul Erdington 4th July 2012

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/...vr.it&utm_medium=twitter#.T_QN6O-cECQ.twitter

Richard Sanderson 29th May 2011

http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/..._committed_suicide_after_housing_benefit_cut/

Paul Reekie June 2010

http://www.scotsman.com/news/author-s-suicide-due-to-slash-in-benefits-1-1367963

Christelle Pardo, child and unborn child

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/07/mother-suicide-welfare-state

Elaine Christian Feb 2011

http://www.thisishullandeastriding....health-check/story-12927176-detail/story.html

David and Helen Mullins Nov 2011

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/ne...uple-found-lying-side-by-side-92746-29739580/

Unknown Sister

http://www.dpac.uk.net/2011/05/cuts-kill-the-story-of-a-sister-driven-to-suicide/

Sandra Moon August 2008

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/local/back_problems_led_to_fatal_dose_1_437852



Non suicide deaths.

Larry Newman Oct 2010

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/24/atos-case-study-larry-newman

David Groves May 2011 Heart attack.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/stress-of-tory-benefits-tests-killed-129934

Karen Sherlock 29th April 2012

http://www.welshfocus.co.uk/2012/06/the-death-of-karen-sherlock/

Mark Scott 26th Jan 2012

http://www.formbytimes.co.uk/news/f...ere-cut-100252-30986134/#.T7aGHV2jr3x.twitter

Unknown Ladys husband

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?262469-help-me-take-Atos-and-DWP-to-court






Fit to work?

Paul Mickleburg

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/health/father-who-suffered-14-heart-attacks-fit-for-work.17741760

Gary Hulme

http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.u...ts-385-month/story-15635369-detail/story.html

Unknown lady

http://the-newrepublic.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/atos-suicide-attempt.html



Driven to despair

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...self-alight-outside-Birmingham-Jobcentre.html


----------



## kate santos (Jul 4, 2012)

well i have been to my work programme provider this morning who has told me its not working and they are losing money.
great so what for us the unemployed now?  i have long term illness and im just getting over cancer, and they have told me they dont think they will be able to find me a job, we are on the last resort know of working from home. i have rang tesco who are opening a new story in november but they told me i cant apply because i was working in january.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 4, 2012)

for the driven to despair section:

http://www.wirralnews.co.uk/wirral-...ists-in-birkenhead-jobcentre-100252-30994547/

Birkenhead man slashes wrists in job centre


----------



## BigTom (Jul 4, 2012)

kate santos said:


> well i have been to my work programme provider this morning who has told me its not working and they are losing money.
> great so what for us the unemployed now? i have long term illness and im just getting over cancer, and they have told me they dont think they will be able to find me a job, we are on the last resort know of working from home. i have rang tesco who are opening a new story in november but they told me i cant apply because i was working in january.


 
Bit odd of tesco to say that, why does it matter that you were working in January?
So are you actually being taken off the work programme because they don't think you'll be able to find work?  Useless lot.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 4, 2012)

kate santos said:


> well i have been to my work programme provider this morning who has told me its not working and they are losing money.
> great so what for us the unemployed now? i have long term illness and im just getting over cancer, and they have told me they dont think they will be able to find me a job, we are on the last resort know of working from home. i have rang tesco who are opening a new story in november but they told me i cant apply because i was working in january.


 
Sorry to hear about your illness Kate and that's ridiculous about Tesco


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Saving this here incase my pooter gives up.. It's awfy tired and hanging on.. just
> 
> Paul Wilcoxson. 21st June 2011
> 
> ...


 

Still think it should be on a thread of its own so we can keep track of these sad cases and not let them get buried in this thread


----------



## purenarcotic (Jul 4, 2012)

I guess this will be as good a place as any.  As part of savings the NHS are being made to make, 10 of the specialist pediatric heart units today learnt their fate.  Leicester have lost theirs.  This has obviously devastated staff and patients. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18694122  gives a background story, the outcome of the meeting didn't come out until just after 6 but I assume you can watch ITV's central tonight on ITV Player or whatever it is should you choose too. 

Our NHS is being ripped to shreds.


----------



## the button (Jul 6, 2012)

Bit of a result:

http://solfed.org.uk/?q=brighton/a-domino-falls-holland-barrett-quit-workfare-after-direct-action



> Campaigners are claiming a major scalp in the fight against workfare after retailer Holland & Barrett announced they were pulling out of the scheme. On hearing the news, Brighton Solidarity Federation tweeted "we've won an important battle against workfare, but the war is far from over." The announcement came just 24 hours before a planned national week of action against workfare organised by the Boycott Workfare Network. Holland & Barrett had strongly backed workfare, announcing that they were committed to taking 1,000 people on unpaid work schemes this year alone (out of a workforce of just 3,500).


 
Onto the next one....


----------



## audiotech (Jul 6, 2012)




----------



## october_lost (Jul 6, 2012)

the button said:


> Bit of a result:
> 
> http://solfed.org.uk/?q=brighton/a-domino-falls-holland-barrett-quit-workfare-after-direct-action
> 
> ...


Almost deserves a thread all of its own


----------



## jiggajagga (Jul 7, 2012)

http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...ns/edm-detail1/?session=2012-13&edmnumber=295

Note, not one Tory with a soul and one Lib Dem with a conscience.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 7, 2012)

the button said:


> Bit of a result:
> 
> http://solfed.org.uk/?q=brighton/a-domino-falls-holland-barrett-quit-workfare-after-direct-action
> 
> Onto the next one....


 
Excellent result. It's been reported Chris Grayling saying that "the protest/protesters a disgrace", & "what they're doing is totally unacceptable". Tell ya what Chris, go & boil your head you utter fucking cunt.

Brighton Walk of Shame targeting McShite & Primark today.


----------



## rorymac (Jul 7, 2012)




----------



## cesare (Jul 7, 2012)

the button said:


> Bit of a result:
> 
> http://solfed.org.uk/?q=brighton/a-domino-falls-holland-barrett-quit-workfare-after-direct-action
> 
> ...



"revolutionary union initiative" 

I agree with OL, It deserves a thread of its own, SOLFED have done/are doing so much on this.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 7, 2012)

Is this an old one?  Just found it on Facebook page


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 7, 2012)

cesare said:


> "revolutionary union initiative"
> 
> I agree with OL, It deserves a thread of its own, SOLFED have done/are doing so much on this.


 
Getting those on workfare to stand up & say, 'fuck your forced labour' for themselves is the direction it needs to be going.


----------



## cesare (Jul 7, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Getting those on workfare to stand up & say, 'fuck your forced labour' for themselves is the direction it needs to be going.



Encouraging everyone to come on the pickets, and hand out leaflets/stickers. The more the better. Not just because of the forced labour aspect but also the effect of driving down wages for everyone else.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 7, 2012)

Absolutely.


----------



## _angel_ (Jul 7, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> I guess this will be as good a place as any.  As part of savings the NHS are being made to make, 10 of the specialist pediatric heart units today learnt their fate.  Leicester have lost theirs.  This has obviously devastated staff and patients.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18694122  gives a background story, the outcome of the meeting didn't come out until just after 6 but I assume you can watch ITV's central tonight on ITV Player or whatever it is should you choose too.
> 
> Our NHS is being ripped to shreds.


And leeds too -- why target the two more central accessible places. There's an article in guardian suggesting leeds stitched up.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 7, 2012)

I've just put those list links onto a new thread here..

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-reform-and-cuts-were-to-much-to-bear.295951/

Hope I got all the links right as I'm having a bit of a brain fart day today.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 7, 2012)

Consent and Welfare to Work(fare) Programmes.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 16, 2012)

'In 2008/10, aggregate total wealth (including private pension wealth but excluding state pension wealth) of all private households in Great Britain was £10.3 trillion. The wealthiest 10 per cent of households were 4.3 times wealthier than the bottom 50 per cent of households combined.'

Full report to download here in pdf format


----------



## treelover (Jul 18, 2012)

Has Boycott Workfare been hacked or has a virus?, all you get on the URL is a load of pharmacys, etc...


----------



## BigTom (Jul 18, 2012)

Don't know at the moment the person responsible for the website tech has been contacted and is speaking to the server company


----------



## treelover (Jul 18, 2012)

still happening...


----------



## the button (Jul 18, 2012)

http://www.solfed.org.uk/?q=south-l...ce-themselves-from-workfare-after-hb-withdraw

Another one gone.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 18, 2012)

http://goo.gl/xZBTh

A breakdown of the big changes coming with Universal Credit - only glanced at this, on the mylegal forums, but recommended by Suey2y on twitter so I assume it's all there and right.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jul 18, 2012)

I can forsee the absolute shambles and chaos as the transition happens already.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 18, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> I can forsee the absolute shambles and chaos as the transition happens already.


 
At it's heart, UC is basically a massive IT project, and we all know how well government IT projects have run.


----------



## stuff_it (Jul 18, 2012)

BigTom said:


> http://goo.gl/xZBTh
> 
> A breakdown of the big changes coming with Universal Credit - only glanced at this, on the mylegal forums, but recommended by Suey2y on twitter so I assume it's all there and right.


Monthly, and new claimants can now only get 1/3 of the dole as a crisis loan - I take it that means if you end up suddenly having to sign on at the wrong end of the month you will potentially have 3-4 weeks to get by on £60-£80 (or less if 1/3 if payments are lower than the current dole). 

Some blatant hinting that they know the payments will be lower than the dole. 

Seems a bit silly to address rent being paid direct to tenants though as that already happens. 

Are caring for a child under 1 - I take it this means they will now require single parents to look for work from when the child reaches a year old? Some kids aren't even fully weaned by then!


----------



## treelover (Jul 19, 2012)

BigTom said:


> http://goo.gl/xZBTh
> 
> A breakdown of the big changes coming with Universal Credit - only glanced at this, on the mylegal forums, but recommended by Suey2y on twitter so I assume it's all there and right.


 

I suspect U/C is going to be the plaything of the Tories, they will cut it as and when they like, probably salami slice it, They are going to bring back shame and the deserving poor, it is going to be run from call centres in India, so people will get even less sympathy and empathy than the minimum they get from DWP here, many low paid workers there will see it as 'free money' for scroungers, etc.My real fear is if something goes wrong the claimant will not have his or her HB paid and could lose their accommodation. The other plan is that U/C will be a combined sum and the public will be able to see 'just how much the dolies get', they really are cynical and cruel twats...


----------



## Wolveryeti (Jul 19, 2012)

Big worry for UC is to what extent savings will be realised through the drive for internet self-service making it easier to navigate for everyone as opposed to filtering out the difficult cases that really need a human being to talk through.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 21, 2012)

and it just gets worse



> *Quarter of those claiming sickness benefits have a criminal record in 'truly alarming discovery'*
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2176777/Quarter-claiming-sickness-benefits-criminal-record-truly-alarming-discovery.html#ixzz21Fd3q6l7​


 
FFS


----------



## purenarcotic (Jul 21, 2012)

And there was I thinking that when you'd done your time, or payback, you'd paid your debt to society and you had the right to a clean slate.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2012)

"Background checks"? When did this come about?

So if they did "background checks" as claimed in that article what is this "researchers" involvement?




> Researcher Patricia Morgan said: 'A lot of people who have opted for incapacity benefit do seem to have committed criminal offences. 'There are people who claim incapacity benefit because they are alcoholics or use drugs. They shouldn't be allowed to, but they do. 'They do not need to work and often they steal to maintain their drinking or addiction. Generally people who work do not commit crime. 'But for some people incapacity benefit is a subsidy to give them time to go out and thieve.


 
​​​


----------



## purenarcotic (Jul 21, 2012)

If only those smack addicts would just pull themselves together!


----------



## stuff_it (Jul 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and it just gets worse
> 
> 
> 
> FFS


 
CFY


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2012)

The remark "do seem to" from this "researcher" is not very clear is it?​​'Not allowed to claim Incapacity Benefit for being an alcoholic or if you use drugs?' What if you have MS, or you seek pain relief using cannabis? What if you're in the midst of a crisis mentally, say after losing a loved one and hit the bottle?​​This article stinks, but story's like this are becoming all too frequent and expect more of the same.​


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2012)

*Sickness Benefit Claimants Remarkably Law Abiding Research Finds.*

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/201...imants-remarkably-law-abiding-research-finds/


----------



## treelover (Jul 23, 2012)

latest: ESA claimants will lose all benefits if they miss just one interview,


ffs, people will be left destitute...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 23, 2012)

treelover said:


> latest: ESA claimants will lose all benefits if they miss just one interview,
> 
> 
> ffs, people will be left destitute...


 
What if they're unable to attend because they're sick?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 23, 2012)

From fullfact.org

The Daily Mail has claimed that a quarter of sickness benefits claimants have a criminal record. Here's some facts:

The Mail's percentage figure of 21 percent is stated as being "correct", however:




> .....it's on shakier ground in saying these people “claim to be unfit for work [but] appear to be fit enough to commit crime”, as only 13 per cent of offenders claimed a sickness benefit in the month before they were sentenced.





> It’s also dubious as to whether these are “truly alarming” figures as the article claims, and when compared to the best information we have on the prevalence of criminal records in the general population, the claim seems less striking.


http://fullfact.org/factchecks/do_quarter_sickness_benefits_claimants_have_criminal_record-27624


----------



## audiotech (Jul 23, 2012)

And so it begins.

Universal Credit - DWP.



> Universal Credit will go live nationally in October 2013. However, from April 2013 a Universal Credit ‘Pathfinder’ programme will take place in Tameside, Oldham, Wigan and Warrington.


 
(((Tameside, Oldham, Wigan and Warrington)))



> At the heart of Universal Credit is a partnership between the state and the claimant.


 
and



> If the claimant doesn’t do what he or she has committed to do, they will experience tougher penalties than at present, such as their benefit being reduced or withdrawn for up to three years. The details of these penalties are currently being defined.


----------



## weepiper (Jul 23, 2012)

Universal Credit is scaring the pants off me.

This 'it must be paid monthly' thing seems to me to be a direct attack on addicts claiming. Although it will also be a pain in the ass for everyone else.

Edit, also at the moment with my family income coming from several different sources, paid at different payment schedules across the month (previously wages, Housing Benefit, Tax Credits, Child Benefit - wages now replaced by Income Support) if one of them fucked up and decided to suspend a payment while I dragged myself down to an office to show them the relevant bits of paper again (which happens with tedious regularity) the other ones would still be paid, meaning I was never left in a position where _everything_ was suspended. Under UC all of my income will come as one monthly payment so if they suspend it I'll be having to choose whether not to pay my rent or my energy bills or not to eat.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 23, 2012)

Yep, same here, I've been freelance claiming wtc for the past few years and even though I probably average out 30 hours each week it doesn't come evenly.  With UC I'm not sure what would stop me from signing on instead tbh, most of those 30 hours don't earn me any money, it's essentially me trying to find work, more or less what I'd do on JSA instead except that I can take jobs as and when they come without my money stopping and starting.  Plus no chance of workfare or sanctions.  I get less money from WTC (£52/wk max without kids) but make that up and a bit more in the jobs that I get.
Seeing the rise in the number of self-employed people, I think there's quite a few in the same position I am and UC will end up meaning we claim more not less.. except for all the fucking sanctions. 3 years ffs.

I'm still pinning my hopes on massive IT failure in the pilot.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 24, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> I can forsee the absolute shambles and chaos as the transition happens already.


 
*IF* it happens. They aren't doing well on the IT front, and that's going to be the pivot on which the whole system swings.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 24, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and it just gets worse
> 
> 
> 
> FFS


 
And since when is 21% a quarter? Fucking innumerate morons!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 24, 2012)

BigTom said:


> At it's heart, UC is basically a massive IT project, and we all know how well government IT projects have run.


 
Like diarrhoea down the leg of a tramp.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 24, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> And there was I thinking that when you'd done your time, or payback, you'd paid your debt to society and you had the right to a clean slate.


 
Notice how type of crime isn't mentioned, either. The implication is obviously of fraud, but the likelihood, going by the wealth of stats we have for successful prosecutions leading to convictions is of low-level public order and petty theft offences.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> "Background checks"? When did this come about?
> 
> So if they did "background checks" as claimed in that article what is this "researchers" involvement?
> 
> ...


 
She's not a researcher I would hire. If I research something for a paying customer, I go to the subject with as few preconceptions as possible. She seems to have "researched" this matter with many prejudices and assumptions already firmly in place.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 24, 2012)

Just been given this link. Yet more government bumph to wade through. 

Explanatory Memorandum for the Social Security Advisory Committee
Universal Credit Regulations 2012
For the meeting of the Social Security Advisory Committee on Wednesday 13 June 2012


----------



## BigTom (Jul 24, 2012)

Yeah, but this wasn't research in any normal sense of the word, it was just a way to attack benefit claimants generally, disabled people specifically, to help with the miss one appointment lose your ESA stuff - oh look there are loads of dodgy criminal types claiming disability benefits, well that can't be right can it, they're obviously faking it, so although yeah it's shit for the genuine claimants we've got to weed out the fakers and this is a good way to do it.

Along with Johhny Void's article posted earlier, Sue Marsh has this in Guardian CiF today:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/24/myth-criminals-sickness-benefits 



> What's more, when the report on which the Daily Mail story is based refers to "a criminal record", the figures go on to show that a full 48% of these offenders got only a fine or a caution. "Summary motoring or non-motoring offences" account for 46% of the total, ie, petty misdemeanours such as parking and speeding fines, or minor drunk-and-disorderly behaviour, which are not tried by a judge. These are offences that many Daily Mail readers might also have on their record – or indeed, any of us
> 
> Being a suspicious type, this made me wonder whether there might be a real story in the report – from the Department of Work and Pensions last November – that the government was much less keen for us to hear about. And, indeed, it seems that there is. What the research actually highlights is a group of people trapped in a cycle of short-term work, making desperate claims for subsistence benefits, and compelled to sign up for various work schemes (which fail them utterly) and more short-term work, as the whole cycle repeats endlessly.


 
It's a really interesting article and well worth reading all of it.

One of the things that confuses me about this story is how easy it is to show the lie behind the statistic - same level as general population, mostly for very minor things which anyone will know people who have done that.  Either they are assuming that everyone who reads the daily mail, their target audience for this story, is not going to read anything else or at some point they are going to push it too far and people who normally accept what they say will realise how they've had the wool pulled over their eyes with such an obvious lie.  
It's much harder to manufacture consent these days, so much easier for people to access multiple media sources online, someone who gets the daily mail in print 10-15 years ago would never have read the guardian, now it's just a click away and most people have friendship groups with a few people at least of different political persausions.
At some point I hope the lie will be too big and a chunk of trust in what the government tell you about claimants will be hurt, and space grows for a different message.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 27, 2012)

Ed Marsh has been tweeting from an A4e course over the last 2 days - well worth reading through it all:

http://storify.com/yeebles/ted-harsh-s-job-centre-course 

https://twitter.com/ted_harsh

the tl;dr version is that the course - 2 days on CV building and interviews - was pointless, stupid and badly run. He didn't end up with a CV from it either.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 27, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Ed Marsh has been tweeting from an A4e course over the last 2 days - well worth reading through it all:
> 
> http://storify.com/yeebles/ted-harsh-s-job-centre-course
> 
> ...


 
I got sent on one of those courses when I was unemployed once. Got sent to learn office skills. When they gave me a typing test, I typed 97wpm. They asked why I was there. I told them dole would stop my money if I didn't attend.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 29, 2012)

in today's news
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jul/29/long-term-unemployed-unpaid-work


----------



## BigTom (Jul 29, 2012)

iirc community service maximum is 300 hours, CAP will be 780 hours of community service.  It's a bigger crime to be unemployed than to break the law.


----------



## stuff_it (Jul 29, 2012)

BigTom said:


> iirc community service maximum is 300 hours, CAP will be 780 hours of community service. It's a bigger crime to be unemployed than to break the law.


Except how would you do community service and be 'unemployed' at the same time? 16 hours a day? The only way thy could hope to supervise that is by gathering the poor together in some sort of 'work-houses' or 'work-camps'.


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jul/29/sovereign-capital-tory-donors-millions

Its always on a Sunday, the DWP/Grayling/Smith announce another one of their schemes/or ratcheting up one, why,

btw, now we know he has kowtowed to the private providers demanding more sick people should be forced to work, inc a private provider who was a key adviser in setting up the schemes and a Tory donor..

silence from the Labour Party again...


----------



## stuff_it (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> Its always on a Sunday, the DWP/Grayling/Smith announce another one of their schemes/or ratcheting up one, why,
> 
> btw, now we know he has kowtowed to the private providers demanding more sick people shoould be forced to work, inc a private provider who was a key adviser in setting up the schemes and a Tory donor..
> 
> silence from the Labour Party again...


Always a Sunday - and if it's a Sunday these are the ones they have thought about properly for oooh a week at least, not just made it up last week in the HOC bar and polished it off drinking pimms in the garden all weekend.


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jul/29/sovereign-capital-tory-donors-millions


oh and this very influntial guys forced labour company is now owned by another City firm, nice...

God, the corruption is so transparent, where is Milliband?


----------



## BigTom (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jul/29/sovereign-capital-tory-donors-millions
> 
> 
> oh and this very influntial guys forced labour company is now owned by another City firm, nice...
> ...


 
Waiting in line to start counting the money.  None of them will step out of line because they are all corrupt as well.


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

Time to bombard the media, social media, allies, etc with info and experiences on the ESA and the Atos medical test following the two TV programmes tonight: the undercover ATOS doctor on on Dispatches at 8pm Ch4 will be dynamite, for so long the DWP/Grayling have argued there are no targets, this programme destroys that position, the BBC 2 Panorama one at 8.30pm, with the awful title, 'Disabled or faking it?' I will reserve judgement on...


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/


----------



## BigTom (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> Time to bombard the media, social media, allies, etc with info and experiences on the ESA and the Atos medical test following the two TV programmes tonight: the undercover ATOS doctor on on Dispatches at 8pm Ch4 will be dynamite, for so long the DWP/Grayling have argued there are no targets, this programme destroys that position, the BBC 2 Panorama one at 8.30pm, with the awful title, 'Disabled or faking it?' I will reserve judgement on...


 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...s-sending-sick-and-disabled-back-to-work.html

This article sounds like it could be positive - talking about a gut who died from a heart attack after being assessed fit to work (different person from the Birmingham dad whose story came out a month or so ago:



> Stephen Hill was sent to his first Work Capability Assessment in 2010 when he gave up his job as a sandwich delivery man after being referred for tests on his heart.
> 
> His wife Denise, who was with him at the assessment, said: "She checked him out. She did his blood pressure and his heart and said to see a doctor as soon as possible."
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

The commentariat/celebs are now making their views known, just now on the Wright Stuff, this is inevitable as the scale of it means everyone will have a relative/friend/colleague who will be affected: it seems mostly along the lines, ''the test is correct but wrongly applied''* the use the dichotomy of deserving such as the heart attack guy and un-deserving, the bad back brigade, druggies, etc..that ''there are scroungers, etc, but not my, fill in the blanks...''

still an improvement, public opinion is shifting, the Dispatches one will imo move it even further..


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

'Benefits assessment firm causing 'fear and loathing' among claimants, says MP

Commons committee to publish critical report on Atos, which determines whether people are eligible for sickness benefits


Amelia Gentleman 
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 24 July 2011 17.09 BST' 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...mps?intcmp=239



more trouble for Grayling...


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

'http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19046447


Harrington to stand down...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

He's obviously not playing their game. 



> He said ministers wanted a "fresh set of eyes" - but denied this was because of changes he had asked for.



Yeah right.. They want a set of eyes like Greyskulls on it.


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

apparently its for the 'fluctuating conditions' element, bad news for PWME, etc...


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

Disabled activists have held a “paupers’ picnic” in the lobby of the Houses of Parliament, to draw MPs’ attention to cuts they say are leaving many disabled people without enough money to feed themselves properly.
http://benefitscroungingscum.blogspot.co.uk/


When was this?, no media coverage at all, afaik,


----------



## BigTom (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> Disabled activists have held a “paupers’ picnic” in the lobby of the Houses of Parliament, to draw MPs’ attention to cuts they say are leaving many disabled people without enough money to feed themselves properly.
> http://benefitscroungingscum.blogspot.co.uk/
> 
> 
> When was this?, no media coverage at all, afaik,


 
mid july, no media coverage that I saw, but I knew about it from dpac, sue marsh etc. on twitter & facebook.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 30, 2012)

> The Telegraph claimed over the weekend that 'new figures' revealed that over half of those found fit for work after claiming sickness benefits were finding jobs. We found that this was neither new nor accurate.


http://fullfact.org/factchecks/sickness_benefit_claimants_found_fit_work_ESA-27688


----------



## audiotech (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> ...the use the dichotomy of deserving such as the heart attack guy and un-deserving, the bad back brigade, druggies, etc..that ''there are scroungers, etc, but not my, fill in the blanks...''


 
The Daily Express today does just that.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 30, 2012)

Two disabled workers claiming they were unfairly dismissed by BskyB.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

Oh my.. Karen Sherlock just came up on my FB feed liking a page. Gave me such an odd feeling...  I clicked on her page. Seems her poor husband has access to it and has posted this. 



> just a heads up to you folks out there. At the end of the week I'll be applying to FB to memorialize Karen's account. If anyone wishes to add Karen then do so but you need to send me a PM too to say who you are. No PM, no add.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 31, 2012)

Sonia Poulton has put up a letter to Ed Milibland on google docs asking for people to sign it before it gets sent to him. 

I can't get it to work as yet but anyone interested might do.

Sonia doc.


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2012)

'for the first time I live in fear more of my govt than my disability'

comment on the letter


----------



## treelover (Aug 2, 2012)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...0-Brits-rake-30-000-year-housing-benefit.html

The extreme right winger Priti Patel has been stirring it up in the DM, this time about HB..


----------



## weepiper (Aug 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...0-Brits-rake-30-000-year-housing-benefit.html
> 
> The extreme right winger Priti Patel has been stirring it up in the DM, this time about HB..


 
excuse me while I quietly have an aneurism, as I sit here waiting for my child tax credit payment to clear into my bank account so that I can actually afford to do a food shopping, seeing as Housing Benefit naturally decided to suspend my claim because I told them I'd lost my job on the 19th, meaning they haven't paid my rent this month


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 2, 2012)

weepiper said:


> excuse me while I quietly have an aneurism, as I sit here waiting for my child tax credit payment to clear into my bank account so that I can actually afford to do a food shopping, seeing as Housing Benefit naturally decided to suspend my claim because I told them I'd lost my job on the 19th, meaning they haven't paid my rent this month


Is it definitely on it's way weeps? *crosses everything*


----------



## weepiper (Aug 2, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Is it definitely on it's way weeps? *crosses everything*


 
I can see the CTC payment in my account but it's not cleared yet, should be this afternoon sometime. I spoke to HB yesterday and as I suspected it's because the computer automatically suspends your claim as soon as you tell them about any change of circumstances until a decision-maker has processed it. It's in someone's personal in-tray supposedly so should get dealt with in the next day or two, but really, you couldn't make it up... I tell them I've _lost my job_ so they decide _not to pay me_ this month


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 2, 2012)

They're so quick to put in the suspend codes yet straangely slow when it comes to start codes eh.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 2, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> in today's news
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jul/29/long-term-unemployed-unpaid-work


 
As usual, some total shitcunts in the "comments" section.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 2, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Always a Sunday - and if it's a Sunday these are the ones they have thought about properly for oooh a week at least, not just made it up last week in the HOC bar and polished it off drinking pimms in the garden all weekend.


 
Or at the 19th hole after a round of golf.
Bunch of self-satisfied cunts.

Hmm, this *has* given me an idea, though.

If a bit of preliminary research reinforces what I'm thinking, I'm going to be able to make a comparison between this programme and a certain other one that *doesn't* break Godwin's Law.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> As usual, some total shitcunts in the "comments" section.


the beauty of internet comments innit


----------



## audiotech (Aug 2, 2012)

A new low.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 2, 2012)

audiotech said:


> A new low.


FFS I know parents who claim DLA for one or more disabled children, and not one penny of that money is spent on anyone else.  The thing is that if you can't afford a suitable car or wheelchair except through motability, you sign over the entire mobility component for 3 years, and if you get more than a certain level of care from social services, that's the care component gone too.  

Wherever the DLA goes it certainly doesn't often go on cocaine, champagne or caviar.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 2, 2012)

audiotech said:


> A new low.


 
I have said this before, but








​


----------



## treelover (Aug 2, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> They're so quick to put in the suspend codes yet straangely slow when it comes to start codes eh.


 

one of the big consultancies told the DWp that the way to bring down the welfare budget is to at all cost limit and delay pay outs as all these 'micro' delays save money, etc...


----------



## weepiper (Aug 2, 2012)

fucking hell. That is disgusting


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 2, 2012)

weepiper said:


> fucking hell. That is disgusting


Not surprising though weeps when we see the speed they whip benefit away compared to the time taken to reinstate.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 2, 2012)

Not surprising at all when you consider the government's general opinion of 'the poor' and their ability to parent. Frightening times.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 3, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> the beauty of internet comments innit


 
I (doubtlessly mistakenly) often assume that some of these people are timid little church-mice in real life, but fearless right-wing cuntbags online.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 3, 2012)

audiotech said:


> A new low.


 
Another method by which to kill off a few more claims and/or claimants.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 3, 2012)

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-may-lose-benefits-under-reforms-8002288.html

Half a million disabled people may lose benefits under DLA -> PIP reforms


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 3, 2012)

BigTom said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-may-lose-benefits-under-reforms-8002288.html
> 
> Half a million disabled people may lose benefits under DLA -> PIP reforms


 
Yep, this was the original intention, and people shouldn't just be worried about losing *all* of their DLA, they should also be worried that a concentrated effort will be made to downgrade the conditions of many DLA recipients, in order to minimise PIP payouts.

I found this particularly rancid:
"The Government yesterday described the DLA – worth up to £131.50 a week – as an outdated benefit and said the new assessment would 'ensure that, unlike in DLA, disabled people will be able to have a detailed discussion with a health professional about how their impairment affects their everyday lives'."

On what planet did people on DLA not have "a detailed discussion with a healthcare professional about how their impairment affects their everyday lives"? The doctors I saw for DLA EMAs had the data from my application/renewal form *and* a detailed discussion with me in order to establish how my impairments affected my day-to-day functioning, as did most claimants.
I suspect that what this *actually* partly means is "no renewals based on what's been established about your condition on previous applications. We'll make sure one of our 'healthcare professionals' reassesses you using our claimant-excluding software, *at every single renewal*" .


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I (doubtlessly mistakenly) often assume that some of these people are timid little church-mice in real life, but fearless right-wing cuntbags online.


quite likely, I've just had a long session on the yahoo news comments, not that it will make any difference but it helps vent anger gets my blood boiling and probably gets me closer to a stroke too


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 3, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> quite likely, I've just had a long session on the yahoo news comments, not that it will make any difference but it helps vent anger gets my blood boiling and probably gets me closer to a stroke too


 
I don't have to worry about that too much, as I'm medicated for hypertension, and it takes a planet-sized amount of cuntery to make my bp rise by more than about 5%.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 3, 2012)

Beta-blockers help too VP.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 3, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Beta-blockers help too VP.


 
I take 1 x Atenolol (beta-blocker) 100mg daily, 1 x Lisinopril (ACE inhibitor) 10mg twice daily, 1 x bendrofluomethazide (diuretic) 2.5mg daily and 1 x Amlodipine (calcium channel blocker) 5mg daily. Add to that the anti-inflammatories, analgesics, my diabetes medication and statin, and I sound like a percussionist playing his maracas when I walk! 
I *could* get the same effects as I get from the above from taking one or two of the newer hypertension treatments, but the beta-blocker I'm on helps limit the prevalence and duration of my migraines, so I'm unwilling to stop taking it.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 3, 2012)

For your migraine, I'll give you a bangin' cluster headache.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 3, 2012)

This time "fury" as residents in Scotland become benefits 'guinea pigs',


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2012)

" Estelle Haviland • 4 hours ago

Not so long ago, my aunty, who is profoundly deaf, totally blind (without any light perception), cannot speak and has a mild learning disability (childhood measles) was investigated for benefit fraud. Assessors left her in the middle of a busy car park to "see if she could make it back into the testing centre".
My mother saw this from the waiting room, and ran out rescue her.
She was so frightened, she was shaking.

I would say this borders on "torture""

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012...o-are-targeted-in-the-media-its-the-disabled/


I must have missed this comment when I read the blog, for gods sake how can this be tolerated in a decent society? Whay aren't 'abled bodied' etc on the left, the churches, the unions, civil society, etc, screaming out about this...

This is not acceptable

could someone send this to guardian contacts, etc...


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2012)

treelover said:


> " Estelle Haviland • 4 hours ago
> 
> Not so long ago, my aunty, who is profoundly deaf, totally blind (without any light perception), cannot speak and has a mild learning disability (childhood measles) was investigated for benefit fraud. Assessors left her in the middle of a busy car park to "see if she could make it back into the testing centre".
> My mother saw this from the waiting room, and ran out rescue her.
> ...


Suffering fuck. How long will we tolerate this sort of shit for.


----------



## treelover (Aug 13, 2012)

'c/o Paul Gray and Make SomeNoise for M.E.
Sonia Poulton, freelance journalist who has written articles criticising the welfare reforms that have affected sickness and disability benefit claimants and has written the most radical expose of the politics surrounding ME in the mainstream media, has received an email from an anonymous source at Whitehall. This is what she posted:

Sonia Poulton: 'E-mail just now from 'friendly insider in Whitehall': 'You are too outspoken and should be careful with your words. You make some people uncomfortable'.
Sadly, could not respond as e-mail just bounced back, but I wrote: 'Good. I'm not here to provide room service for elitists. By the way, I always make sure to let people know that if anything happens to me then it shouldn't automatically be assumed it's an accident.'

PLEASE SHARE WIDELY. — with Sonia Poulton.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...c-fatigue.html



Sonia Poulton, the great campaigning Daily Mail (yes, thats right) journalist/commentator who has been fierce in her condemnation of the welfare reforms, appears to have had a 'warning', I'm not sure if it is dramatic as she thinks, but it does show the inner workings of the establishment and how they respond to a real threat, the Guardian, etc is clearly not seen as one as they have given excellent critical coverage as well...

btw, I now have my letter to Panorama when they screened the influential 'Britain on the Sick' in 2008 and the producers reply scanned, is there anywhere I can post it all up?


----------



## treelover (Aug 13, 2012)

actually I wonder if this deserves its own thread, its pretty damning, especially after Levinson...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 13, 2012)

I saw this over the weekend but was too bollocksed to say much.Wonder if she can get it's origin from the email. I know she's not very pooter savvy, she says so herself.


----------



## treelover (Aug 13, 2012)

Apparently Ed Milliband has replied to her open letter, more later...


----------



## treelover (Aug 13, 2012)

'*An evening of action against the media cheats*

On Monday 13th August, Channel 4′s Dispatches will be broadcasting an episode called “Tricks of the Dole Cheats”. The programme will help further stigmatise people who claim social security. Yesterday it had already provided the Daily Mail with an opportunity for its favourite type of rant under the headline “Benefit cheats’ bonanza”.

This despite the fact half a million people were sanctioned last year, and the fact that 99.3% of benefits payments have nothing to do with fraud.
If you’re fed up with the way the media blame people claiming benefits for the UK’s economic woes, then tonight you can can do something about it.
Visit the Facebook event for more details on how to take action or see suggestions below.'


Boycott Workfare is urging online protests, good for them...

Sonia Poulton's on the case as well, if only we had this when the reforms were first proposed...​


----------



## treelover (Aug 13, 2012)

Btw, I have to admit it, Faceache is replacing here as the prime medium to highlight issues..


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 15, 2012)

treelover said:


> Btw, I have to admit it, Faceache is replacing here as the prime medium to highlight issues..


It is very useful. Most of the same stuff does turn up on here, but a lot of it is put up in longer running threads so not as obvious unless you read them regularly.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 15, 2012)

6th International Forum on Disability Management (IFDM 2012)
Monday - Wednesday  10 - 12 September 2012
*Venue:* Imperial College London, South Kensington Campus, LONDON, SW7 2AZ



> *Background:*
> In the late 1990s a group of people who were committed to the ideals of best practice in disability management met in Ottawa. From that meeting came the agreement to collaborate on an International Forum to be held every two years in major locations throughout the world, with a focus on research and practice in the field of disability management. Each meeting would attract senior political representatives, and senior executives from government, labour and industry, to speak on the achievements and challenges in that country's efforts to address these problems.
> 
> *Aims and objectives:*
> ...


Once again the usual suspects who heavily influenced Govmnt policy and WRA are gathering again and I wonder how much more damage they can do worldwide to sick and disabled people. 

All the usual suspects, UNUM, Carol Black, Disability Rights UK, Prof Sir Mansel Aylward *psychosocial bullshit* will be there.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 15, 2012)

treelover said:


> Btw, I have to admit it, Faceache is replacing here as the prime medium to highlight issues..


As much as lots of info and groups etc are on Facebook, I do prefer to come here with info and actually get the chance to hear peoples views, experiences and actually have a discussion rather than a fleeting glimps on the facebook feed.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 15, 2012)

I find here better for discussion, twitter best for news and facebook a bit shit really, useful for organising sometimes.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 15, 2012)

BigTom said:


> I find here better for discussion, twitter best for news and facebook a bit shit really, useful for organising sometimes.


Faceache is useful for contacting people who are less tech savvy and/or perhaps only access the internet from their phones. There's a lot of them out there.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 15, 2012)

Yeah, although I've got to say that since timeline for pages came in, all the pages I admin have noticeably dropped in traffic, and birmingham against the cuts twitter overtook facebook for followers and I get more feedback from there now (although still more referalls from facebook).


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 15, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Yeah, although I've got to say that since timeline for pages came in, all the pages I admin have noticeably dropped in traffic, and birmingham against the cuts twitter overtook facebook for followers and I get more feedback from there now (although still more referalls from facebook).


The only reason I tend to stay off Twitter unless there is something happening is I find it can be a bit of a bandwidth hog, where I'm paying £5 per gb on my dongle atm for pre pay....


----------



## treelover (Aug 15, 2012)

juts been reading that just like in the olden days, people are now identifying ATOS doctors, staff, addresses, etc and spreading the info around on social media, can't possibly condone such behavior though.......


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 15, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> The only reason I tend to stay off Twitter unless there is something happening is I find it can be a bit of a bandwidth hog, where I'm paying £5 per gb on my dongle atm for pre pay....


Wow.. That's hefty. Who is the provider stuff_it?


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 15, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Wow.. That's hefty. Who is the provider stuff_it?


3 - I can't get a long contract as I'll b in halls by the end of September and paying £140 for 9 months of 10GB unlimited badboy.

I'm going in halls, so little point getting a phone line installed to the truck.


----------



## treelover (Aug 15, 2012)

You are paying 30' O00 grand for tuitions fees!


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 16, 2012)

treelover said:


> You are paying 30' O00 grand for tuitions fees!


No, £9k per year for tuition, plus another nearly £4k loan to live on (pay rent and buy books), plus another nearly £4k grant for food as I'm a pauper.

They tripled the tuition fees this year, innit.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 17, 2012)

Any Welsh lovelies need a bit of a lie down on


> Wednesday, 29 August 2012
> 17:00
> 
> 
> ...


 
Facebook page.

And Swansea too. 

Protest against ATOS in Swansea


Tuesday, 28 August 2012
12:00

 
Grove House, Grove Place, Swansea
 
Disabled people, carers and friends -- on Tuesday the 28th in Swansea, take part in a national protest against ATOS, a company that’s sponsoring the Paralympics but wrecking disabled people's lives.

Every week 32 people die after being found "fit for work" by ATOS and their inhumane computer-based tests.We are asking the whole of the anti-cuts movement to join us in our opposition to the company most responsible for driving through the government’s brutal cuts agenda.
Facebook Page.


----------



## treelover (Aug 17, 2012)

Good news, but 'die ins' really have to be done with dignity, some of the student ones are embarrassing...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 17, 2012)

From DPAC website.

We are really keen to focus on Atos throughout the Paralympics,so any help from DPAC would be great. 
I am really keen to speak to disabled people who have had the following experiencing with the WCA:

Family member who committed suicide as a result of being found fit to work
someone who turned up for their assessment to have it cancelled because no health professional around
someone who has inaccurate information recorded by the assessor

I am totally open to anything new – so please do keep ion touch and pass on my details (work number please).
Many thanks
Nina Lakhani
The Independent
News Desk
0203 615 2103
n.lakhani@independent.co.uk
@ninalakhani


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

Welfare Reform. The dread of things to come. pdf.



> The contributions to this short ebook have been written in the moment
> of political campaigning. They bear witness, employ argument and offer
> statistical evidence to challenge the way both Labour and the Coalition
> governments have designed and implemented welfare reforms.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

I've just stumbled over an ex poster (banned) from here I believe called Jonathan Bishop.
He's giving out advice on self employment and tax credits around disablity groups and pages on facebook. 

You’re off Incapacity Benefit – what next?
I'm off to bed now, but, I'd appreciate your thoughts on his advice page. *quick glance seems to say similar to what Work Providers have been sussed as trying to get their 'customers' to do as far as self employment is concerned*


----------



## BigTom (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I've just stumbled over an ex poster (banned) from here I believe called Jonathan Bishop.
> He's giving out advice on self employment and tax credits around disablity groups and pages on facebook.
> 
> You’re off Incapacity Benefit – what next?
> I'm off to bed now, but, I'd appreciate your thoughts on his advice page. *quick glance seems to say similar to what Work Providers have been sussed as trying to get their 'customers' to do as far as self employment is concerned*



He's wrong about 16 hours/week, though he may have been correct at the time of writing. It's only 16hrs for single parents now afaik, 24hrs for couples with children and was always 30hrs for anyone without children (or maybe dependents, no idea how tax credits might work for carers)
(caveat: there may be different rules for disabled people, but i don't know how they would do it, perhaps someone in receipt of dla only needs 16hrs to qualify).

He's right that tendering and looking for work counts but i think you'd need to show that it was part of a genuine business. I don't know the website mentioned but i think if you were just firing off random bids and not acting in the way that would be expected of a genuine business then you could probably lose your tax credits and be made to repay what you've claimed.

I'm not sure though if they can decide that even if you can evidence trying to find work you're not actually trying to run a genuine business so you're not eligible for tax credits.

It's a risk though and personally i don't like his advice because he didn't mention the risk of having to repay credits if caught. If his advice was that if you have a business idea you'd like to try, tax credits can be got even before you're actually getting paid work, it'd be fine, but that's not how i read the slant of the article.
I read it as saying that conditionality of tax credits is easier than jsa and easy to fake.

That he's not mentioned details of eligibility like needing to be over 25 or that kids/no kids affects eligibility is not a good sign in general.
Her also hasn't mentioned rates, wtc for non parents is 52/week, less than jsa. 

Flakey info is usually a good sign of dodgy advice.. Though his main assertion is probably correct.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 20, 2012)

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTa...qualifies/WorkingTaxCreditthebasics/DG_172730

ok, there are different rules for disabled people, so 16 can qualify you BUT

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTa...qualifies/WorkingTaxCreditthebasics/DG_172728



> You don't have children
> 
> If you're not responsible for children, you need to work the following hours to get Working Tax Credit:
> if you're aged 25 or over, you need to do *paid work* of at least 30 hours a week
> ...


 
So I'm wrong about tendering for work, though I'm sure I've been told that if you are self-employed then I can count time spent pitching for jobs.

If you have kids it's different:



> one of you is disabled and working at least 16 hours a week
> one of you works at least 16 hours a week and the other is entitled to Carer's Allowance - even if they don't get any payments because they receive other benefits instead


 
cos it says working, not paid work.


----------



## treelover (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Welfare Reform. The dread of things to come. pdf.


 

Good find, when was it re-published?, I see it features Jonathan Rutherford's excellent analysis on the genesis of the current welfare reforms:'New Labour, The Market State and the end of Welfare' including the seminal meeting/conference in Oxford in 2002 on 'malingering and illness deception' that amongst others was attended by David Milliband and of course UNUM...


----------



## treelover (Aug 20, 2012)

Why was Bishop banned?


----------



## treelover (Aug 20, 2012)

'In November 2001 a conference assembled at Woodstock, near Oxford. Its
subject was ‘Malingering and Illness Deception’. The topic was a familiar one to
the insurance industry, but it was now becoming a major political issue as New
Labour committed itself to reducing the 2.6 million who were claiming Incapacity
Benefi t (IB). Amongst the 39 participants was Malcolm Wicks, then Parliamentary
Under Secretary of State for Work, and Mansel Aylward, his Chief Medical Offi cer at
the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP). Fraud - which amounts to less than
0.4 per cent of IB claims - was not the issue. The experts and academics present
were the theorists and ideologues of welfare to work. What linked many of them
together, including Aylward, was their association with the giant US income protection
company UnumProvident, represented at the conference by John LoCascio. The
goal was the transformation of the welfare system. The cultural meaning of illness
would be redefi ned; growing numbers of claimants would be declared capable of
work and ‘motivated’ into jobs. A new work ethic would transform IB recipients into
entrepreneurs helping themselves out of poverty and into self-reliance. Five years later
these goals would take a tangible form in New Labour’s 2006 Welfare Reform Bill.'

excerpt from essay by Jonathan Rutherford, (see above post)

this summary says everything about current welfare policy, its ethos, philosophy and practice..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

I think that site with the article on tax and this one are both JB inventions. 
The Crocels Community Media Group
The Selivcel Project


----------



## Greebo (Aug 20, 2012)

treelover said:


> Why was Bishop banned?


It's complicated.  IIRC, it was partly a banning and partly him flouncing off.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

treelover said:


> Good find, when was it re-published?, I see it features Jonathan Rutherford's excellent analysis on the genesis of the current welfare reforms:'New Labour, The Market State and the end of Welfare' including the seminal meeting/conference in Oxford in 2002 on 'malingering and illness deception' that amongst others was attended by David Milliband and of course UNUM...


I've loads of pdf that I saved links to and to my drive over the last year that I'm finally getting round to re-naming and sorting out. Hence the 4am find of that one this morning. 

The Truth is Out There.. If I can just remember what the file abreviation means when I'm searching for it.


----------



## treelover (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I think that site with the article on tax and this one are both JB inventions.
> The Crocels Community Media Group
> The Selivcel Project


 

yes, i think JB has recently moved further towards the dark side, as many do....


----------



## treelover (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I've loads of pdf that I saved links to and to my drive over the last year that I'm finally getting round to re-naming and sorting out. Hence the 4am find of that one this morning.
> 
> The Truth is Out There.. If I can just remember what the file abreviation means when I'm searching for it.


 

its on Faceache now, not by me though, but spreading like wildfire, nice one...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

That's the good thing about faceache. The speed that pics, files and articles move around at.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

Cut benefits to bring down rail fares: MP

WTF..!!


> The Coalition should cut benefits more to help keep down rail fares for commuters, a Conservative MP has said.
> Mark Reckless, MP for Stroud and Rochester in Kent, said those who travel for work should not be facing an increase in ticket prices of up to 11 per cent.
> "It is a question of fairness for those working hard to charge them so such," he told the BBC.
> George Osborne, the Chancellor, is under growing pressure over the increases, which threaten to squeeze household budgets during the recession even further.



We should starve to stop fare increases now..!!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Cut benefits to bring down rail fares: MP
> 
> WTF..!!
> 
> ...


 
Anyone would think people on benefits don't use trains


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> From DPAC website.
> 
> We are really keen to focus on Atos throughout the Paralympics,so any help from DPAC would be great.
> I am really keen to speak to disabled people who have had the following experiencing with the WCA:
> ...


 

Could be interesting 

http://www.facebook.com/events/217652368360892/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Anyone would think people on benefits don't use trains


I don't. I can't afford them.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I don't. I can't afford them.


 
Well I try to avoid them due to cost but b/f has Freedom Pass so do occasionally as it may be quicker and less stressful for him even though I have to pay full fare


----------



## BigTom (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Cut benefits to bring down rail fares: MP
> 
> WTF..!!
> 
> ...


 
eh? what's the tory-logic behind this? how would cutting benefits bring rail fares down? Not at all explained in the article itself, benefits isn't mentioned? Is it because some on benefits get free travel and that money should be used to subsidise tickets for commuters?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

BigTom said:


> eh? what's the tory-logic behind this? how would cutting benefits bring rail fares down? Not at all explained in the article itself, benefits isn't mentioned? Is it because some on benefits get free travel and that money should be used to subsidise tickets for commuters?


 
Maybe all the money saved from cutting Incapacity Benefit and DLA will be given to the rail operators?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well I try to avoid them due to cost but b/f has Freedom Pass so do occasionally as it may be quicker and less stressful for him even though I have to pay full fare


 
in Scotland, carers travel free (or so I've heard)


----------



## Greebo (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I don't. I can't afford them.


Neither can I - even using the tube off peak bumps up the oyster cap to a level I have to think twice about.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

BigTom said:


> eh? what's the tory-logic behind this? how would cutting benefits bring rail fares down? Not at all explained in the article itself, benefits isn't mentioned? Is it because some on benefits get free travel and that money should be used to subsidise tickets for commuters?


Ah Tom.. Tory Logic... oxymoron.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe all the money saved from cutting Incapacity Benefit and DLA will be given to the rail operators?


Don't you just love it that handouts for them are okay, but so-called handouts to us aren't?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> in Scotland, carers travel free (or so I've heard)


Yes. There's a +1 facility on travel cards here. Lad with sticks sometimes +1's me if I help him with his bags on the bus on a Monday after we sign on. Gives him the chance to get a few more bits as he just lives round the corner from me.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Don't you just love it that handouts for them are okay, but so-called handouts to us aren't?


 
Yes, but politicians do save us some money on rail fares by having three months holiday 

Unless they have a yearly pass of course


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Yes. There's a +1 facility on travel cards here. Lad with sticks sometimes +1's me if I help him with his bags on the bus on a Monday after we sign on. Gives him the chance to get a few more bits as he just lives round the corner from me.


 
That's nice.  Ireland does the same thing as well.

Carer is supposed to travel with person with pass though and vice versa


----------



## Greebo (Aug 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yes, but politicians do save us some money on rail fares by having three months holiday <snip>


Gosh, how can I ever thank them for that bit of self denial?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Gosh, how can I ever thank them for that bit of self denial?


 
It's shocking they only get 3 months off whilst the sick/disabled/unemployed have so much more


----------



## BigTom (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Ah Tom.. Tory Logic... oxymoron.


 
 yeah.. initially I just wrote logic, but then I realised there would be none, so I attached tory on the front of it to make clear I wasn't expecting anything actually logical, but I was expecting there to be some kind of 1+1=3 statement somewhere.. 
Was this just an outburst at benefit claimants then, like Minnie suggests?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's nice. Ireland does the same thing as well.
> 
> Carer is supposed to travel with person with pass though and vice versa


He doesn't have a carer as he's on lowest rate DLA. Getting worse though so will no doubt (hopefully) get bumped up to higher rate next time he gets Assessed/PiP'd. He has EDS.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

BigTom said:


> yeah.. initially I just wrote logic, but then I realised there would be none, so I attached tory on the front of it to make clear I wasn't expecting anything actually logical, but I was expecting there to be some kind of 1+1=3 statement somewhere..
> Was this just an outburst at benefit claimants then, like Minnie suggests?


Hell heah. All using the most extreme excuse these days.. Tory conference just round the corner. They'll all be sharpening up their newest cuts ideas.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> He doesn't have a carer as he's on lowest rate DLA. Getting worse though so will no doubt (hopefully) get bumped up to higher rate next time he gets Assessed/PiP'd. He has EDS.


 
You can't get a Freedom Pass down in London if you're only on lowest rate DLA


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You can't get a Freedom Pass down in London if you're only on lowest rate DLA


Just had a look at the Awards Perhaps it's middle rate he's on. I won't see him for a month as there's a bank holiday next week but I'll ask.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Just had a look at the Awards Perhaps it's middle rate he's on. I won't see him for a month as there's a bank holiday next week but I'll ask.


 
and that's not enough, you have to be on higher or middle rate care and higher rate mobility as well (with Lambeth anyway)


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 21, 2012)

Well.. This article by Patrick Butler in the Guardian has seriously pissed off John McArdle of Black triangle. He is raging on facebook.

Disability activists use social media to put care cuts on the political agenda

Pushing Spartacus, Sue Marsh. Kaliya Franklin and Nicky Clark as Talented accidental activists and the old style chain to railings as partly pragmatic. 

Can't say I blame John really. Another poster there came up with this which I completely agree with but couldn't remember the theory or who was behind it to even google:

Divide & Rule Lessons



> _Ron Duchin graduated from the US Army War College, and served as special assistant to the Secretary of Defence and director of public affairs for the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) before joining Pagan International and then MBD. In 1991 he gave a speech to the US National Cattlemen’s Association describing how MBD works to divide and conquer activist movements. Duchin explained that activists fall into four categories: radicals, opportunists, idealists and realists, and that a three-step strategy was needed to bring them down. First, you isolate the radicals: those who want to change the system and promote social justice. Second, you carefully ‘cultivate’ the idealists: those who are altruistic, don’t stand to gain from their activism, and are not as extreme in their methods and objectives as the radicals. You do this by gently persuading them that their advocacy has negative consequences for some groups, thus transforming them into realists. Finally, you co-opt the realists (the pragmatic incrementalists willing to work within the system) into compromise. “The realists should always receive the highest priority in any strategy dealing with a public policy issue . . . If your industry can successfully bring about these relationships, the credibility of the radicals will be lost and opportunists can be counted on to share in the final policy solution.” Opportunists, those who are motivated by power, success, or a sense of their own celebrity, will be satisfied merely by a sense of partial victory._



I've been wracking my brains to find this since Mind published as guests on Sues' blog about working with ATOS and government. 

I have to say I'm pissed off for all the groups and activists out there too.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and that's not enough, you have to be on higher or middle rate care and higher rate mobility as well (with Lambeth anyway)


I'll find out better when I see the guy minnie.


----------



## treelover (Aug 21, 2012)

http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/

Sue Marsh replies to her critics, etc...

and backs Black Triangle...


----------



## treelover (Aug 21, 2012)

http://www.dpac.uk.net/2012/08/latest-information-on-atos-games-week/

bump for the ATOS protests, wonder how many 'able bodied' people will support these actions, they don't have a famous greyish/blonde involved...


----------



## 8115 (Aug 22, 2012)

Austerity doesn't seem to be working too well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19333086


----------



## terratech (Aug 22, 2012)

A look into the future where work-camps have returned, food vouchers are the norm, privatisation has turned us into commodities and even H. G. Wells would be shocked at the “ultimate degeneracy" of man. 


*A look to the future *

Diary- 5/6/2017: Just returned from Workcamp after a 50 hour week and looking forward to receiving my food vouchers on Monday, but will have to share them with Mary who has been sanctioned for Ten years after signing her name in English instead of the new Germanic way, and now makes up the numbers to nine living here, eight sharing is the lawful amount for housing relief,(thirty if privately owned) four on day shift and four on night rotation. We have a request pending for extra food vouchers with the Bombay claims and benefits helpline, but they insist that our Tags aren’t communicating with Central Facebook and we need to re-register.

Diary- 6/6/2017: Watching News headlines on A4e channel (we have had to conceal the TV since the licence fee has risen to £800 a year) The minimum wage has now been reduced to £1.78 in response to extra output from the Chinese, since the Chinese now own Greece, Portugal and France by default on their loans. Good news for pensioners as they can now get funding at the age of fifty for non-return tickets to many medical centres in Switzerland. Charities who now own 99% of high street property are requesting more access to Workcamp members on invalidity in a budget campaign to reduce travelling expenses as these members are “now live in”, They also get a carer as a bonus incentive.

Diary- 7/6/2017: Heading to Watford tonight to join a Demo against The Watford Wall Bill, raising annual income to £100,000 to reside below the Watford Wall, pushed through by the Union Government and Payday Loans UK. I fear we will have a tough time especially when met by the A4e Police, but looking forward to the A4e shuttle ride, stopping for refreshments at the A4e services before we pay the A4e Motorway toll.

Diary- 8/6/2017: Received my application for work from The I.D.S. Grayling Voucher Superstore, the two hour a week part time slot will come in handy, and I have great hopes as I’m on a shortlist of 30.000 but Workcamp are reluctant to let me go to interview as it clashes with their “have pride in the way forward and don’t forget who owns you!” training session.

Diary- 9/6/2017: Mary has deteriorated as we only have one toilet due to the new Landlord toilet tax and we are now looking on the black market for E.Harrison or R.Branson medical vouchers, if we have no luck we will have to trade her body parts to Claims Direct, who now send out parts, instead of compensation.

Update: Mary alas is no more, and her parts have been sent to various corners of the realm, she was registered at Central Facebook and The DWNP(Department of Work and No Pensions) Bombay Central want to know why her Tags now show her residing in Manchester/Birmingham/ Liverpool and Birkenhead!


----------



## treelover (Aug 22, 2012)

Did you post something similar of CIF? it was very good..


----------



## treelover (Aug 23, 2012)

'Dear Ms Poulton,

Thank you for your correspondence regarding the Work Capability Assessment, and my apologies for the delay in replying.

Disabled people need support and compassion, and the Labour Party believes in a welfare state that fulfils this principle.

The previous Conservative Government took the opposite approach and left many disabled people on Incapacity Benefit with little support to return to work where possible. It is also important to separate out ill health and disability from the decision not to work, which is taken by a distinct minority.

For these reasons, the previous Labour Government introduced the Work Capability Assessment, and I am supportive of the principles behind this test.

However, I share some of the concerns that have been expressed about the test by you, along with many charities, disability groups and healthcare professionals.

These concerns, the high percentage of appeals, and Professor Malcolm Harrington’s expert reviews have shown that the test must be improved. The Government needs to listen to Professor Harrington’s advice, especially when his third review for 2012 comes out.

We have also forced a vote in Parliament on the need to reduce the human cost of the wrong decisions that result from the WCA in its current form.

Given the importance of this issue, I am keen that you discuss this further with the Labour Party and share with us some of the experiences of people going through the WCA that you have collected.

Anne McGuire, my Shadow Minister for Disabled People, would be happy to arrange a meeting in order to do so.

Thank you again for taking the time to get in touch on this issue.

Yours sincerely,

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP'

http://socialwelfareunion.org/archives/2067


Ed Milliband has replied to Sonia Poulton's open letter which was countersigned in a few days by 5000 people, imo, its clear the L/P and now Milliband still support welfare reform, the principles behind the WCA and are just willing to ameliorate some of its extremes, especially the elements that give the process a bad image.....

the LP are no friends of sick and disabled people...


----------



## treelover (Aug 23, 2012)

No mention of fraud levels or their culpability in creating the moral panic which has led to 'something must be done'.....


----------



## treelover (Aug 23, 2012)

'The pioneering John Rogers of the Sheffield Welfare Action Network (SWAN)
wrote presciently in 2006 of the ‘dread of things to come’.


Fuck me, I've been acknowledged in the Ebook about welfare! they have even used my quote for the book title, I'm a pioneer!

nearly fucking killed me though..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 23, 2012)

terratech said:


> A look into the future where work-camps have returned, food vouchers are the norm, privatisation has turned us into commodities and even H. G. Wells would be shocked at the “ultimate degeneracy" of man.
> 
> 
> *A look to the future *
> ...


Brilliant.


----------



## 8115 (Aug 24, 2012)

I just found this, if anyone needs a smile.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2012/aug/13/dailymail-twitter


----------



## audiotech (Aug 25, 2012)

8115 said:


> I just found this, if anyone needs a smile.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2012/aug/13/dailymail-twitter


 
The Daily Mail has never really dragged itself out of the gutter.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 25, 2012)

2nd letter from Sonia Poulton to Ed Miliband. 


> Dear Ed,
> 
> I have received a call from James in your office. He repeated what you had already tweeted me. I.E. that you would respond comprehensively to our letter.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Aug 25, 2012)

The LP can't accept it, it would mean accepting their culpability, they created this system which is leading to poverty, misery and yes, death...


----------



## treelover (Aug 27, 2012)

Great spoof video, can't believe how the welfare reform issue is now taking off, especially amongst the young, I was fearing they had been lost to the dark side on this one..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2012)

Sonia Poulton on Facebook. Another letter to Ed.



> I have thought long and hard about the most appropriate response to Ed Miliband's letter. I believe this one, just sent to Ed, is the right way to go. With regard the issue of meeting Anne McGuire...initially I worried that this would be a conflict of interest with my role as a journalist...but, seeing as I had run Ed's open letter on Mail Online, it is perfectly reasonable for me to see that this letter is delivered.
> 
> That is what I have promised thousands of people who have signed, many of whom are not part of disability campaigning groups. They have trusted me to follow through with this letter and I will not let them down. I will also, separately, be pursuing a policy of arranging a meet between Anne and a number of activists. It is not my shout to guarantee this but I will make it clear how valuable such a meeting could be to Labour.I am sticking with the original position of our letter.The same position that thousands of people have counter-signed and it is this: we are asking Ed to pursue a total abolition of Working Capability Assessment.
> 
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 28, 2012)

treelover said:


> Great spoof video, can't believe how the welfare reform issue is now taking off, especially amongst the young, I was fearing they had been lost to the dark side on this one..


 
Tried watching that a few times over the last couple of days but it just seizes up. Frustrating.

Anyway, some good news. ATOS will continue to provide a service that is compassionate 

http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/up...sts-over-planned-cuts-to-disability-benefits/


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

A letter a day to number 10 from keithordinaryguy.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 28, 2012)

Reminds me of my nan who wrote many many complaining letters to the Labour Party. 

She was a staunch conservative


----------



## treelover (Aug 28, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Tried watching that a few times over the last couple of days but it just seizes up. Frustrating.
> 
> Anyway, some good news. ATOS will continue to provide a service that is compassionate
> 
> http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/up...sts-over-planned-cuts-to-disability-benefits/


 
'Protests have taken place this morning in Hull, Sheffield and Leeds today over planned cuts to disability benefits.
Campaigners say a private firm employed by the Government to assess the sick and disabled is unfairly deciding some claimants are fit to work.
An ATOS spokesperson said: “We fully respect people’s right to peaceful protest and we understand this is a highly emotive issue.
“We do not make decisions on people’s benefit entitlement or on welfare policy but we will continue to make sure that service that we provide is as highly professional and compassionate as it can be.
"We do this through a constant programme of training and education for our staff, a rigorous recruitment process for healthcare professionals and through continual work with the Government, disability rights groups, healthcare professionals and those going through the process on the ground.”


In the text, its ATOS's voice that is heard, not the protesters, as it were

anything on national BBC?


----------



## treelover (Aug 28, 2012)

Re: Millibands reply to Sonia, the thing is NL created this monster and used the tabloids and yes the BBC to propagandise it, it (the media campaign, etc) was much more successful than they ever thought it would be, now Ed is terrified of what they see as public opinion against scroungers and how the tabloids would turn against them if they moderated their welfare policies

but,, where is the LP rank and file?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 28, 2012)

Some mroe sad stories here

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=29452


----------



## treelover (Aug 31, 2012)

Biggest anti-welfare protest yet, hundreds at Atos HQ, arrests at DWP HQ...


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 2, 2012)

A bit confused by this thread. Is it a campaign against poverty or a campaign against welfare cuts? Long term the positions are direct opposites. As a welfare recipient I cant say Im thrilled by current legislation but to combat poverty one has to look at the causes of poverty rather than relying on the temporary bandaid of a bankrupt welfare system.
Yes I dont like the effects of these (& other) cuts, however Id rather campaign against poverty than for short term fixes that will merely create more poverty in the future.
Its about bigger pictures.
Whats needed is solutions to the Lib/Lab/Con created/supported failed poverty trap, rather than perpetuating it.
Its time to think new.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 2, 2012)




----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> A bit confused by this thread. Is it a campaign against poverty or a campaign against welfare cuts? Long term the positions are direct opposites. As a welfare recipient I cant say Im thrilled by current legislation but to combat poverty one has to look at the causes of poverty rather than relying on the temporary bandaid of a bankrupt welfare system.
> Yes I dont like the effects of these (& other) cuts, however Id rather campaign against poverty than for short term fixes that will merely create more poverty in the future.
> Its about bigger pictures.
> Whats needed is solutions to the Lib/Lab/Con created/supported failed poverty trap, rather than perpetuating it.
> Its time to think new.


 
are you Lord Wei?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> are you Lord Wei?



No, nor do I think Id be welcome in either the lords or the conservative party (not that Id particularly wish for either)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> Re: Millibands reply to Sonia, the thing is NL created this monster and used the tabloids and yes the BBC to propagandise it, it (the media campaign, etc) was much more successful than they ever thought it would be, now Ed is terrified of what they see as public opinion against scroungers and how the tabloids would turn against them if they moderated their welfare policies
> 
> but,, where is the LP rank and file?


 
What "rank and file"? Last time I looked at membership figures, the LP were well south of 250,000 in total. Many constituency parties are run by skeleton memberships, with members filling multiple roles. Maybe it's different up your way, as you've more of a history of industrial Labour activism, but down here the whole thing is fucked. Why belong to a party where you've got no say in the direction the party takes?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> A bit confused by this thread. Is it a campaign against poverty or a campaign against welfare cuts? Long term the positions are direct opposites. As a welfare recipient I cant say Im thrilled by current legislation but to combat poverty one has to look at the causes of poverty rather than relying on the temporary bandaid of a bankrupt welfare system.
> Yes I dont like the effects of these (& other) cuts, however Id rather campaign against poverty than for short term fixes that will merely create more poverty in the future.
> Its about bigger pictures.
> Whats needed is solutions to the Lib/Lab/Con created/supported failed poverty trap, rather than perpetuating it.
> Its time to think new.


 
What we need is an integrated solution, but we're not going to get one from these neoliberal tossrags, just a progressively eroded welfare base.
That being so, we've got to at least ensure that people aren't rolled over *now*, or "long-term solutions" won't be necessary, because "the poor" will already be so anathematised that no consideration will be given to us.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 2, 2012)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4516400/Hardship-handouts-scrapped.html

Hardship fund scrapped - loans from now on.




			
				Ian Duncan Smith said:
			
		

> Hardship payments should be just that — payments you receive when you are in a temporary, difficult financial situation.
> 
> “We don’t expect them to be used to fund life’s extras such as nights out, holidays or subscription TV.
> 
> “The payments are a loan to help people adjust to their circumstances with the emphasis being that they are very much a last resort


 
yeah, cos when benefits get sanctioned and people apply for hardship fund it's so they can go on holiday 

He's also trailing vouchers/pre-paid card scheme to stop people "squandering" money. Can see it happening at some point.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> That being so, we've got to at least ensure that people aren't rolled over *now*.



Wasnt that the policy of most of the last 20 years & are people not at greater risk today because of it?

Lib, Lab, or Con, all reluctant to embrace reallity and instead looking for expensive short term band aids that need paying for eventually, & the price? Cuts.

Despite a reduced growth in spending over the last two decades all parties are looking at some form of cuts at the moment because even the reduced rate of growth was still mismanaged and full of unaffordable waste.

How long do we play the game for?

We could effectively borrow to stave off cuts, but that just increases debt and requires MORE cuts in the future.

Everyone knows the system doesnt work as it is (even if they wont always say so in quite such candid language), but fear of a backlash keeps all sides locked into bandaid and duct tape solutions that just rachet up the problem for the next term.

Sooner or later were going to have to break that cycle, or else it will break us.

Its time to lay off the band aids and to look at alternative systems and set ups.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 2, 2012)

They asked me how much food I had in the house when I rang for a hardship payment, after my benefits were stopped due to, as it turned out, a DWP "error". Totally demeaning experience, was given a lecture on 'safe-guarding the public purse'. It's a loan ffs and I pay tax. The geezer on the other end of the phone lost it at one point and then I knew I'd got him and from that point on he knew to cut out the bull-shit and deal with my claim in a manner that didn't include treating me as the 'scum of the earth'. It ended up as a total waste of time and I was informed that no hardship payment of any kind was likely in my case. Similar, with a request for funeral expenses when my Mother died last December and I was faced with a two and a half thousand pound funeral bill. I was in receipt of benefit of £67 a week and got no help whatsoever. I even wrote after the first rejection asking them to reconsider their decision and still they refused a payment to help with funeral costs.


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Wasnt that the policy of most of the last 20 years & are people not at greater risk today because of it?
> 
> Lib, Lab, or Con, all reluctant to embrace reallity and instead looking for expensive short term band aids that need paying for eventually, & the price? Cuts.
> 
> ...


Are you excited about going back for second year? Will you be in halls?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 2, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Are you excited about going back for second year? Will you be in halls?



I got my phds a long time ago lol


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> I got my phds a long time ago lol


Obviously not in English grammar.


----------



## yield (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Wasnt that the policy of most of the last 20 years & are people not at greater risk today because of it?
> 
> Lib, Lab, or Con, all reluctant to embrace reallity and instead looking for expensive short term band aids that need paying for eventually, & the price? Cuts.
> 
> Despite a reduced growth in spending over the last two decades all parties are looking at some form of cuts at the moment because even the reduced rate of growth was still mismanaged and full of unaffordable waste.


I don't think anyone would disagree with you about successive governments being incompetent and wasteful.

Look at any of the many threads on the private finance initiative (PFI)



Ash Mahay said:


> How long do we play the game for?
> 
> We could effectively borrow to stave off cuts, but that just increases debt and requires MORE cuts in the future.


 
Or they could increase tax on the super rich.

£13tn hoard hidden from taxman by global elite



Ash Mahay said:


> Everyone knows the system doesnt work as it is (even if they wont always say so in quite such candid language), but fear of a backlash keeps all sides locked into bandaid and duct tape solutions that just rachet up the problem for the next term.
> 
> Sooner or later were going to have to break that cycle, or else it will break us.
> 
> Its time to lay off the band aids and to look at alternative systems and set ups.


What alternative systems do you suggest?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> I got my phds a long time ago lol



Youre right. I was never good at English but then again I feel I do ok considering I was largely self taught and dyslexic.

It didnt make my Uni entry very easy either. A lack of acedemic history doesnt go down to well but I managed to overcome the prejudice of morons.


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Youre right. I was never good at English but then again I feel I do ok considering I was largely self taught and dyslexic.
> 
> It didnt make my Uni entry very easy either. A lack of acedemic history doesnt go down to well but I managed to overcome the prejudice of morons.


If you can't beat them join them?

Foxyred?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 2, 2012)

yield said:


> Or they could increase tax on the super rich.
> 
> £13tn hoard hidden from taxman by global elite
> 
> ...



Id suggest £13tn is a conservative estimate but the problem comes with the word "Global", no government is global so the super rich can stand out of reach safe in the knowledge that with 90% of the wealth that the bankrupt governments of the world, at present, need the super rich more than the super rich needs them (ask Greece).

Its a nice pipe dream to think that money is available but its no closer to hand than Eldorado or Blackbeards hidden treasure.

As for the alternative to the current welfare state I cant honestly say I have the solution, but as is true with any addict the first step is realizing you have a problem and that you need to stop.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 2, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> If you can't beat them join them?
> 
> Foxyred?



If joining them makes you happy go right ahead, I can see how youd fit in.

Not sure what foxyred comment refers to, another off target assumtion would be my guess though.


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Id suggest £13tn is a conservative estimate but the problem comes with the word "Global", no government is global so the super rich can stand out of reach safe in the knowledge that with 90% of the wealth that the bankrupt governments of the world, at present, need the super rich more than the super rich needs them (ask Greece).
> 
> Its a nice pipe dream to think that money is available but its no closer to hand than Eldorado or Blackbeards hidden treasure.
> 
> As for the alternative to the current welfare state I cant honestly say I have the solution, but as is true with any addict the first step is realizing you have a problem and that you need to stop.


So you support a global government? 

PMSL

Why do I smell troll?


----------



## yield (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Id suggest £13tn is a conservative estimate but the problem comes with the word "Global", no government is global so the super rich can stand out of reach safe in the knowledge that with 90% of the wealth that the bankrupt governments of the world, at present, need the super rich more than the super rich needs them (ask Greece).


Do you think it is moral or fair that a small minority prosper off the backs of the majority? I don't.

Income inequality in America: The 99 percent
Oct 26th 2011, by The Economist


Ash Mahay said:


> Its a nice pipe dream to think that money is available but its no closer to hand than Eldorado or Blackbeards hidden treasure.


There's plenty of money. Its velocity is slow though. Lots of cash rich companies techs, miners etc.


Ash Mahay said:


> As for the alternative to the current welfare state I cant honestly say I have the solution, but as is true with any addict the first step is realizing you have a problem and that you need to stop.


I don't think the comparison to addiction is right. The current financial crisis is a result of actions of the deregulated banks.

Free Market Ideology is Far from Finished
Naomi Klein. The Guardian - September 19th, 2008


> During boom times, it's profitable to preach laissez faire, because an absentee government allows speculative bubbles to inflate. When those bubbles burst, the ideology becomes a hindrance, and it goes dormant while big government rides to the rescue. But rest assured: the ideology will come roaring back when the bailouts are done. The massive debts the public is accumulating to bail out the speculators will then become part of a global budget crisis that will be the rationalization for deep cuts to social programs, and for a renewed push to privatize what is left of the public sector.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 2, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> So you support a global government?



Nope. Not sure why youd think that, nor why it would cause you to urinate yourself.

As for your sense of smell it appears as off target as all your other senses.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 2, 2012)

yield said:


> Do you think it is moral or fair that a small minority prosper off the backs of the majority? I don't.



I doubt many people see it as "fair". I would imagine even within the minority there are those who feel its "unfair", although "fair" is largely subjective and not necessarily relevant.



> There's plenty of money. Its velocity is slow though. Lots of cash rich companies techs, miners etc.



Again much of that is global & transferable.

A lot of that wealth can vanish in a heart beat in the face of hostility.

Including the missing trillions or various corporate wealth in budgets is akin to including possible future loans in your personal budget. Its a risky game because if you cant lay your hands on the money eventually youre going to have a big black hole where your life used to be.



> don't think the comparison to addiction is right. The current financial crisis is a result of actions of the deregulated banks.



Banks are part of the story but far from all of it, & even in the part they played greed & addiction raised their ugly heads.


----------



## yield (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> I doubt many people see it as "fair". I would imagine even within the minority there are those who feel its "unfair", although "fair" is largely subjective and not necessarily relevant.


How about moral then if "fair is largely subjective and not necessarily relevant"?

Our social relationships are the basis of society. The world would be a better place with more equitable outcomes.


Ash Mahay said:


> Again much of that is global & transferable.
> 
> A lot of that wealth can vanish in a heart beat in the face of hostility.


Agree with you there as things stand at the moment. But what about alternative systems?


Ash Mahay said:


> Including the missing trillions or various corporate wealth in budgets is akin to including possible future loans in your personal budget. Its a risky game because if you cant lay your hands on the money eventually youre going to have a big black hole where your life used to be.


A nations finances have many differences to a household budget though. Deficit spending at times of a tax shortfall is conservative economics.


Ash Mahay said:


> Banks are part of the story but far from all of it, & even in the part they played greed & addiction raised their ugly heads.


For sure lots of bankers are greedy money addicts. Which other parts of the story do you have in mind?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 2, 2012)

yield said:


> How about moral then if "fair is largely subjective and not necessarily relevant"?



I hate to sound like a nit picker but I cant say that "moral" isnt subjective too.

Dont get me wrong. Im currently on £67 a week (with no savings) so Im not exactly championing the "fairness" or "morality" of mine or anyone elses position, it just is that these are subjective.

What is fair? What is morally right?

Ask everyone on the planet and youll find a world of answers.

I knew a guy in the far east (20 years ago) who had a one room house, a small plot of land (not much bigger than a double garage) & an income of around £100 a YEAR. Hed probably think my £67 a week was unfair and not moral, but Id be the first to shout "unfair" if they wanted to cut it!


----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2012)

​


> Politics and the Paralympics: Voters are against cuts to disability benefits
> ​Coalition praises athletes but overlooks others, says survey​​'Three-quarters of people think that people with disabilities often experience prejudice or discrimination in society, wihile almost the same proportion think disabled people are invisible in the media outside the Paralympics. But it is the suggestion, by 41 per cent of people, that the Government could do more to help that will reverberate in Westminster at a time when the public has been gripped by the spectacle of the Paralympics.'​http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...inst-cuts-to-disability-benefits-8100742.html​


​Lots of people disagree with you...


----------



## yield (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> I hate to sound like a nit picker but I cant say that "moral" isnt subjective too.
> 
> Dont get me wrong. Im currently on £67 a week (with no savings) so Im not exactly championing the "fairness" or "morality" of mine or anyone elses position, it just is that these are subjective.
> 
> What is fair? What is morally right?


A decent, affordable home, a job at a proper wage, free healthcare and benefits for those who are unable to work due to age or illness?

Sorry to hear that you're on the dole. With a phd too. What did you study? I'm sure there are others in the same situation.


----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2012)

'Our local charity called Swans which helped disabled people find work had its government funding removed !!!!! Cameron says one thing and does and does the opposite''

''I visited Diane Abbot in late 2009 to complain about the ESA. She didn't even know what it was, I kid you not and she is on the left of the party..supposedly.'' 





Some very revealing comments in the Indie article


----------



## weepiper (Sep 2, 2012)

current JSA and IS rate is £71 a week


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 2, 2012)

weepiper said:


> current JSA and IS rate is £71 a week



Im £4 a week down paying back a social fund loan. I dont know many people who get the full amount without deductions.


----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2012)

Have you read 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists'?


----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2012)

> The solutions it offers were it least in part manifested in the post war settlement of the Attlee government that has been under attack since the 1980's. But the overarching questions that it asks -What are the causes of poverty, why do those oppressed willingly accept the values of the oppressors, why do they not rise up in revolt and take issue with the system that disadvantages them, remain vibrant.


 
this is part of a review on Amazon, it says all that needs to be said...


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> Have you read 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists'?



A long time ago, yes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 2, 2012)

BigTom said:


> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4516400/Hardship-handouts-scrapped.html
> 
> Hardship fund scrapped - loans from now on.
> 
> ...


 
It's been almost impossible to get HF grants for years to pay for essentials, let alone the tabloidesque "Sky TV" bullshit Duncan Shit is crapping out of his gob.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2012)

weepiper said:


> current JSA and IS rate is £71 a week


fucking ridiculous, it's gone up less than a tenner in the last 8 years.


----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2012)

Smith lies all the time, but NL, (and i think it is still that) and Liam Bryne basically agree with him and don't challenge him....


----------



## weepiper (Sep 2, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> fucking ridiculous, it's gone up less than a tenner in the last 8 years.


 
'why should those lazy bastards get a pay rise when your wages haven't gone up?'


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Wasnt that the policy of most of the last 20 years & are people not at greater risk today because of it?


 
I think that if that's your view, you're either naive, or so partisan you can't see beyond your own arse. The last 30 years have been an inexorable shift *away* from addressing "now" in terms of social issues, in favour of "jam tomorrow" vagueness and a neoliberal agenda that sees any form of welfare spending as wasteful.



> Lib, Lab, or Con, all reluctant to embrace reallity and instead looking for expensive short term band aids that need paying for eventually, & the price? Cuts.


 
There was I thinking that cuts were to pay for capitalism's vinegar strokes in 2007-08, but hey, blame the politicians and even the electorate if that gets you hard!



> Despite a reduced growth in spending over the last two decades all parties are looking at some form of cuts at the moment because even the reduced rate of growth was still mismanaged and full of unaffordable waste.


 
You're starting to sound like a full-pager for the Tax-Avoiders' Alliance, chuntering out vague stock phrases about "growth", "waste" and "mismanagement". Let's unpack these phrases:
Reduced growth: Measured against what? Previous market performance? If so, does that "previous market performance" include other ejaculatory spasms in capitalism's long march, such as the various burst bubbles and market crashes of the last 30 years, or do they get smoothed out on your belll curve for growth?
Mismanagement: What are you measuring the management of, and what are you measuring it against?
Unaffordable waste: Of what resources, and measured against what base figure for depreciation?



> How long do we play the game for?
> 
> We could effectively borrow to stave off cuts, but that just increases debt and requires MORE cuts in the future.
> 
> ...


 
Depends whether you propose a humane solution, or an instrumental one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2012)

weepiper said:


> 'why should those lazy bastards get a pay rise when your wages haven't gone up?'


because they need it and don't have the option, as i do, of going on strike in furtherance of a pay claim?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 2, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> I got my phds a long time ago lol


 
One can only hope that your subject wasn't anything to do with economics.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> Smith lies all the time, but NL, (and i think it is still that) and Liam Bryne basically agree with him and don't challenge him....


 
They can't, because ideologically they're the same. Like I've said before: Same shit, different arseholes.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 2, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> because they need it and don't have the option, as i do, of going on strike in furtherance of a pay claim?


 
Well obviously. Seen that argument many many times on fb and newspaper comments though.

When you think that the minimum wage you would earn for a 35 hour week has gone up by 65 quid in ten years but the JSA rate has only gone up by 15 quid it puts things in perspective a bit though doesn't it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Well obviously. Seen that argument many many times on fb and newspaper comments though.
> 
> When you think that the minimum wage you would earn for a 35 hour week has gone up by 65 quid in ten years but the JSA rate has only gone up by 15 quid it puts things in perspective a bit though doesn't it.


i'm not sure where you're going with this, as i was simply observing how little it has risen since i last signed on, but you seem to be trying to make a rather different point.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 2, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not sure where you're going with this, as i was simply observing how little it has risen since i last signed on, but you seem to be trying to make a rather different point.


 
not really. I was agreeing with you that it hasn't risen anywhere near as much as it should have but at the same time have been arguing lately with too many dickheads (not meaning you btw) who don't think beyond the kind of tripe we are fed by the media. I remember the scandal in the papers when they set this year's rates that it was going to go up by _5.2%_




Edit, 'two many dickheads' FFS


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> One can only hope that your subject wasn't anything to do with economics.



After your little fairytale post above at least thats something we can be sure you never studied.

Tell me do facts, or real life ever get in the way of your reading and ideologies?


----------



## treelover (Sep 3, 2012)

mmm, taking on VP....


----------



## yield (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> After your little fairytale post above at least thats something we can be sure you never studied.
> 
> Tell me do facts, or real life ever get in the way of your reading and ideologies?


Rather than getting riled. Explain what you stand for!

What did you study? Tell more about yourself.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Sep 3, 2012)

The latest troll?


----------



## Greebo (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> After your little fairytale post above at least thats something we can be sure you never studied.
> 
> Tell me do facts, or real life ever get in the way of your reading and ideologies?


Okay, sweetie, you can stop waving that willy around.  It's not as if many people will notice it without using a microscope.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> mmm, taking on VP....


Good timing though:  He'll be logging off soon, if he hasn't already.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Youre right. I was never good at English but then again I feel I do ok considering I was largely self taught and dyslexic.
> 
> It didnt make my Uni entry very easy either. A lack of acedemic history doesnt go down to well but I managed to overcome the prejudice of morons.


Please don't use the word 'morons' on this board. It is not acceptable to do so.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> mmm, taking on VP....



Lol I think if you read the thread again you will see its the other way around and it was Mr Panda (or Mrs Panda?) waving their metaphorical willy about.

It seems one or two people missed (or selectively chose to ignore) Mr Pandas post that I was responding too. Mind you its the usual forum Napoleonics, as found all over the internet, thats often over looked.  

Lets look back shall we?

I was "naive" or "partisan" & cant see beyond my own "arse" for effectively saying:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49310000/gif/_49310591_welfare_464.gif

The fact its true doesnt even enter the equation. In fact I suspect with Mr Panda, as alluded to above, facts, truth, reality & the like are probably frequently ignored, or distorted, if inconvenient & instead insults are pulled out.

Have you read the thread.

Day one, to recap, I was a Tory lord, a troll twice, some seemed obsessed with my willy, & my education was attacked numerous times.

Not that I cant take it. You see that sort of behaviour all over the internet. Most forums have their little Napoleans and their little cliques ready to rain down flames & insults on any new comer who doesnt immediately appear to support everything they say, or believe in.

You get it in all walks of life to be fair.

Maybe Im being to harsh? If I am Im sorry but you can only judge as you find. When youre welcomed with insults by those who over look reality how else can you see things?

If I do have Mr Panda (& a few others) wrong then I genuinely apologize, but then if I do have them wrong theyll be cringing at their own posts right now & fully understanding of how I got the wrong impression.

If the welcome comitee has finished now though Id suggest we get this thread back on topic?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Okay, sweetie, you can stop waving that willy around.  It's not as if many people will notice it without using a microscope.


"it's like a willy only smaller"


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Lol I think if you read the thread again you will see its the other way around and it was Mr Panda (or Mrs Panda?) waving their metaphorical willy about.
> 
> It seems one or two people missed (or selectively chose to ignore) Mr Pandas post that I was responding too. Mind you its the usual forum Napoleonics, as found all over the internet, thats often over looked.
> 
> ...


what do you mean by 'true'?


----------



## Greebo (Sep 3, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> The latest troll?


Or a sock puppet.  The voice is similar to a previous one, and the poor spelling could be a red herring.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Or a sock puppet.  The voice is similar to a previous one, and the poor spelling could be a red herring.


I wouldn't be surprised if he was an alumnus of kcl


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 3, 2012)

True - being in accord with fact or reality.

I know its difficult, in political economics, to get an exact truth as people like to massage figures but if something is broadly backed with facts & reality we can generally take it as broadly true, no matter how convenient, or inconvenient to our beliefs.

In the context of this thread it refers to the fact that, over the history of the modern welfare state, spending has increased.

We might argue by to much, or by not enough, but the reality is that it has increased & that the current model, placed next to the economic model(s) of the same period, is unsustainable, without a change to one, or other.

My initial post, & the subsequent thrust of my argument, has merely been to point this fact out & to explain that creative accountancy can only paper the cracks for so long before a more radical solution is needed.

I further feel that the more money that is thrown at such banaid productions the less money there is for real solutions (as I state above, Im not entirely settled on what the best solution is).


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2012)

Why would you banaid?


----------



## BigTom (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> We might argue by to much, or by not enough, but the reality is that it has increased & that the current model, placed next to the economic model(s) of the same period, is unsustainable, without a change to one, or other.


 
Why does the first proposition lead to the second? what makes this statement "fact", or does the fact only refer to rising welfare spending?

The graph you've posted is not the one you need btw, as you need a graph which shows the cumulative level of spending (in real terms) each year, not the % increase year on year. I'm not disagreeing with your claim that social security spending has risen in real terms btw, but you need a different set of data to prove it.

Another question is where (as in on whom - which category/ies of claimant, rather than geographically) do you think that spending has risen most?


----------



## Meltingpot (Sep 3, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Please don't use the word 'morons' on this board. It is not acceptable to do so.


 
I've been called that several times on here (and worse). I don't like it but I'd rather it was stopped by mutual consent rather than by the admins getting heavy about it.

Either you can have guidelines as to which insults are acceptable on here, or you can just accept that Urban is a rough-and-tumble kind of place and that "if you can't stand the heat you should get out of the kitchen." Whichever you do, you're not going to please everyone.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> If the welcome comitee has finished now though Id suggest we get this thread back on topic?


 
Ok. What are your long-term suggestions for replacing immediate payments?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> After your little fairytale post above at least thats something we can be sure you never studied.


 
With penetrating insight like that, you'd make good...well, cannon fodder, that's about all. 



> Tell me do facts, or real life ever get in the way of your reading and ideologies?


 
A lot more in my life than in yours, I suspect.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Lol I think if you read the thread again you will see its the other way around and it was Mr Panda (or Mrs Panda?) waving their metaphorical willy about.
> 
> It seems one or two people missed (or selectively chose to ignore) Mr Pandas post that I was responding too. Mind you its the usual forum Napoleonics, as found all over the internet, thats often over looked.
> 
> ...


 
Ah, I called you "naive or partisan" because you "effectively" said that, did I?
Strike one!
My calling you that had nothing "effectively or otherwise" to do with an "annual percentage increase in social security spending in real terms". It had to do with your claim that for the past twenty years the state had been looking after the most vulnerable at great expense, at the cost of doing anything to solve long-term issues of dependency. Why you think that is "effectively" the same thing as that "annual percentage increase" chart points up either naivety or partisanship. The two may intersect, but speaking of increased costs is hardly a solution (or even a reference) to solving those long-term issues.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49310000/gif/_49310591_welfare_464.gif


> The fact its true doesnt even enter the equation. In fact I suspect with Mr Panda, as alluded to above, facts, truth, reality & the like are probably frequently ignored, or distorted, if inconvenient & instead insults are pulled out.


 
Your suspicions are irrelevant. Facts please. 



> Have you read the thread.
> 
> Day one, to recap, I was a Tory lord, a troll twice, some seemed obsessed with my willy, & my education was attacked numerous times.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting. It's nothing to do with what you've said and how you've said it, it's rather to do with others and how they've chosen to perceive you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> True - being in accord with fact or reality.
> 
> I know its difficult, in political economics, to get an exact truth as people like to massage figures but if something is broadly backed with facts & reality we can generally take it as broadly true, no matter how convenient, or inconvenient to our beliefs.


 
No, we take it as a conditional truth. One that can (and in many cases will) be superceded by a truth supported by further data at a later time. This means that when using that truth as a basis for calculation, we have to allow for the degree of contingency that truth expresses. To merely take it as "broadly true" is to "pick and choose" convenient data to support a thesis.



> In the context of this thread it refers to the fact that, over the history of the modern welfare state, spending has increased.


 
As has population, GDP and a host of other factors.



> We might argue by to much, or by not enough, but the reality is that it has increased & that the current model, placed next to the economic model(s) of the same period, is unsustainable, without a change to one, or other.


 
Sustainability is a moveable feast. You appear (to "round up" your arguments) to be saying that progressive taxation is a non-starter because it will cause capital flight, so that the only way to "balance the books" is to dismantle the welfare state.
To that I say "of course it'd appear that way. You're deliberately throwing away a tool because you believe it will cause an effect".



> My initial post, & the subsequent thrust of my argument, has merely been to point this fact out & to explain that creative accountancy can only paper the cracks for so long before a more radical solution is needed.


 
Belief, not fact.



> I further feel that the more money that is thrown at such banaid productions the less money there is for real solutions (as I state above, Im not entirely settled on what the best solution is).


 
Except that it doesn't include taxation because "A lot of that wealth can vanish in a heart beat in the face of hostility."


----------



## treelover (Sep 3, 2012)

Well, it had to happen, especially after his 'work sets you free' comments

Its beautifully edited and it never gets old

and stuff Godwins...

btw, wouldn't be surprised if Smith tries to get this taken off, though he will probably be moving in Scumeron's reshuffle...


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 3, 2012)

BigTom said:


> The graph you've posted is not the one you need btw, as you need a graph which shows the cumulative level of spending (in real terms) each year, not the % increase year on year. I'm not disagreeing with your claim that social security spending has risen in real terms btw, but you need a different set of data to prove it.



I wont dispute that but its close enough that people can pretty much work out one from the other.

Im not one to chase all over the internet to prove common knowledge as that ends up as a full time job.



> Another question is where (as in on whom - which category/ies of claimant, rather than geographically) do you think that spending has risen most?



Ill put my hand on my heart and say I really dont know (on the net a lot of people like to fake knowledge but I dont think that serves anyone).

I would suspect the answers to that could be surprising.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> With penetrating insight like that, you'd make good...well, cannon fodder, that's about all. .



lol if you want me to take that statement seriously youre going to have to raise your game considerably as your initial posts showed me the side of you that likes to substitute insults for any form of intellect and people like that are two a penny on forums.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 3, 2012)

Meltingpot said:


> I've been called that several times on here (and worse). I don't like it but I'd rather it was stopped by mutual consent rather than by the admins getting heavy about it.
> 
> Either you can have guidelines as to which insults are acceptable on here, or you can just accept that Urban is a rough-and-tumble kind of place and that "if you can't stand the heat you should get out of the kitchen." Whichever you do, you're not going to please everyone.



To be fair inconsistancy tends to be the norm on forums, not least because most complaints tend to be against those with an opossing view to that of the complainer, rather than evenly based on behaviour, or useage of a word.

Theres many a thread in cyber space where two people use exact same words or sentiments but people selectively only object to the useage by the person they disagree with.

Moderators & admin cant read every post so it goes by peer reaction and thus becomes inconsistent.


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## stuff_it (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> I wont dispute that but its close enough that people can pretty much work out one from the other.
> 
> Im not one to chase all over the internet to prove common knowledge as that ends up as a full time job.


 
Here on Urban we don't require you to do that, but we do require that the data that you do choose to use is accurate and shows what you intend. I'm taking a massively wild stab here that your phd isn't in maths or hard science, nor any of the ologies that would require you to have a decent grasp of statistics and how to sue them appropriately.



Ash Mahay said:


> Ill put my hand on my heart and say I really dont know (on the net a lot of people like to fake knowledge but I dont think that serves anyone).
> 
> I would suspect the answers to that could be surprising.


I suspect they aren't surprising at all (tbf I don't have time to look them up now). I am guessing that there has been a rise in the last few years of people signing long term that have never signed on before and/or who have never signed on for over six months before, including people with a reasonably good degree in a non-shortage area who are just now discovering that the sole purpose of their student debt is to overqualify them for rolling night shifts in a warehouse on agency min wage.

I expect that there has also been a steep rise in spending on disability benefits that is made entirely from the government implementing the WCA and handing over control to ATOS. I seem to remember several articles about this in various newspapers. Again can't be bothered to look them up atm as I have to go walk the dogs. Will probably do it later. If you were much good at trolling I'd probably drink some rum first, but I'm not sure you deserve it.


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## Frankie Jack (Sep 3, 2012)

The government has drawn up plans to withdraw £71 a week from sick and disabled benefit claimants if they fail to take steps to get back into the workplace.

A leaked draft of a Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) template letter warns sick and disabled claimants they will lose 70% of their weekly employment support allowance (ESA) if they refuse to take part in work-related activities, more than doubling the current fine.

The DWP has also told the Guardian that it is finalising plans on whether to make unpaid and unlimited work experience placements part of work-related activity.

At present, those claiming ESA who have also been deemed fit to eventually return to work after controversial health assessments run by the private firm and Paralympic sponsor Atos can only be docked a maximum of £28.15 a week if they break their agreement with their job advisers without "good cause". http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/03/disabled-benefits-claimants-fines-work?CMP=twt_gu​


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## equationgirl (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash, people have been asking you questions about yourself, trying to engage with you and get to know you a little, and you've ignored them. There are a lot of good people on urban.

Also, believe me, VP is going REALLY easy on you because you're new. REALLY REALLY EASY.

Welcome to Urban.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 3, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Ash, people have been asking you questions about yourself, trying to engage with you and get to know you a little, and you've ignored them. There are a lot of good people on urban.
> 
> Also, believe me, VP is going REALLY easy on you because you're new. REALLY REALLY EASY.
> 
> Welcome to Urban.



Thank you for the welcome (I knew someone would be welcoming eventually.

As for VP I treat people as I find them. As I (think) I said earlier I may well be wrong about him but I can only go on what I see and when Im greeted by someone who doesnt know me, & is basing all they say on a couple of posts, yet lead off by implying Im an idiot, naive, partisan, talking out my arse & mere canon fodder to their giant intellect I tend to laugh & wonder if Ive met a fool.

Its not really the most endearing welcome and isnt usually indicative of anything but a small mind.

As I say I may be wrong, but its really now down to VP to convince me that the first impression he gave me was wrong. Maybe if he does I might stop going VERY VERY EASY on him & engage, but at present Im about one incoming insult away from writing him off as someone to ignore.

I hope your right & Im wrong but I am going to take convincing after the start I saw.

After a million newsgroups & forums Ive seen to many blowhards & have little time for them.

Maybe next time hes here VP might change attitude & begin to impress. I already suggested it as a way forward, so heres hoping.

Once again, thanks for the welcome.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> lol if you want me to take that statement seriously youre going to have to raise your game considerably as your initial posts showed me the side of you that likes to substitute insults for any form of intellect and people like that are two a penny on forums.


 
Produce posts that have some substance to them, rather than blethering your opinions, and you might get treated more seriously. Until then, just crapping out generalities isn't going to inspire anyone to take you seriously.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> I wont dispute that but its close enough that people can pretty much work out one from the other.
> 
> Im not one to chase all over the internet to prove common knowledge as that ends up as a full time job.


 
So people have to take you at your word, even when you're word is mostly unsubstantiated?




> Ill put my hand on my heart and say I really dont know (on the net a lot of people like to fake knowledge but I dont think that serves anyone).


 
Here's a clue. It's the one that right-wing "think-tanks" have been mithering about for a decade or so, using phrases like "demographic time bomb", as if it wasn't foreseeable from about 1975-onward.



> I would suspect the answers to that could be surprising.


 
Only if you've avoided reading anything to do with welfare policy, government spending and the multifaceted arguments around provision of pensions for the last 20 years.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Here on Urban we don't require you to do that, but we do require that the data that you do choose to use is accurate and shows what you intend. I'm taking a massively wild stab here that your phd isn't in maths or hard science, nor any of the ologies that would require you to have a decent grasp of statistics and how to sue them appropriately.


 
I hate statistics with a passion, and I'd love to stuff Cronbach's Alpha up Cronbach's arse, handy though it is, but I do understand them, for better or worse, because you can't really avoid having to use and understand them in (as you mention above) so many disciplines.



> I suspect they aren't surprising at all (tbf I don't have time to look them up now). I am guessing that there has been a rise in the last few years of people signing long term that have never signed on before and/or who have never signed on for over six months before, including people with a reasonably good degree in a non-shortage area who are just now discovering that the sole purpose of their student debt is to overqualify them for rolling night shifts in a warehouse on agency min wage.


 
Biggest rise (thoroughly predictable) is in pension age-related benefits, because of the whole "ageing population" issue, and the fact that the real effect of the rise of the pensionable age won't kick in for the government for another couple of financial years. Biggest *percentage* rise, I believe, has been in under 25s claiming. 
It's looking increasingly likely that the JC+s have been offsetting the rise in long-term JSA claims etc through that neat little trick with coercing people into claiming working tax credits, nicely clipping them from the unemployment rolls.



> I expect that there has also been a steep rise in spending on disability benefits that is made entirely from the government implementing the WCA and handing over control to ATOS. I seem to remember several articles about this in various newspapers. Again can't be bothered to look them up atm as I have to go walk the dogs. Will probably do it later. If you were much good at trolling I'd probably drink some rum first, but I'm not sure you deserve it.


 
I'm not sure that spending on contracts and for appeals can actually be counted as "spending on disability benefits", and it's certainly the case that under the Incapacity Benefit regime, recipient count was shrinking (400,000 in 5 years), and cost was shrinking too, and although DLA claims had grown, that included both fresh Attendance Allowance claims made by over-65s and the expanded claims for disabled children legislated a few years back.

Which rum?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Ash, people have been asking you questions about yourself, trying to engage with you and get to know you a little, and you've ignored them. There are a lot of good people on urban.
> 
> Also, believe me, VP is going REALLY easy on you because you're new. REALLY REALLY EASY.
> 
> Welcome to Urban.


 
I'm "going easy" because I'm a bit fuddled at the mo, as it's a bad day for pain, and I'm soaked in a tramadol, morphine sulphate and codeine phosphate cocktail.  Nice except for the incessant breakthrough pain.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Thank you for the welcome (I knew someone would be welcoming eventually.
> 
> As for VP I treat people as I find them. As I (think) I said earlier I may well be wrong about him but I can only go on what I see and when Im greeted by someone who doesnt know me, & is basing all they say on a couple of posts, yet lead off by implying Im an idiot, naive, partisan, talking out my arse & mere canon fodder to their giant intellect I tend to laugh & wonder if Ive met a fool.


 
Just for the record, I implied nothing. I *asked* you whether you're an idiot; I *stated* that you must be naive or partisan; I haven't mentioned *anything* about you "talking out of your arse", I said (in the context of "naive", "partisan" and "arse") that *"I think that if that's your view, you're either naive, or so partisan you can't see beyond your own arse", *and the "cannon fodder" comment was with reference to the fact that your insight with reference to your assumption that I've never studied economics was so penetrating that at best you'd be cannon fodder in a war, not a member of the General Staff.

Context is everything.


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## equationgirl (Sep 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm "going easy" because I'm a bit fuddled at the mo, as it's a bad day for pain, and I'm soaked in a tramadol, morphine sulphate and codeine phosphate cocktail. Nice except for the incessant breakthrough pain.


I may have been a bit people (fuckwit) intolerant at work today for most of the day for the same reason. No morphine for me, sadly 

Hope that breakthrough pain settles down a bit.


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## equationgirl (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Thank you for the welcome (I knew someone would be welcoming eventually.
> 
> As for VP I treat people as I find them. As I (think) I said earlier I may well be wrong about him but I can only go on what I see and when Im greeted by someone who doesnt know me, & is basing all they say on a couple of posts, yet lead off by implying Im an idiot, naive, partisan, talking out my arse & mere canon fodder to their giant intellect I tend to laugh & wonder if Ive met a fool.
> 
> ...


Most of urban is very friendly, welcoming and supportive to be honest, but the Politics forum is a different beast. There's less fluffiness, more backing-up your statements with facts and less tolerance of the ill-informed or those who don't substantiate their statements.

Violent Panda is an incredibly knowledgeable poster - and extremely well-read to boot. I've learnt a lot from him, and from other posters. Don't write him off, it would be your loss if you did, Ash.

Sadly, urban does get a lot of spam and trolls, so regular posters do tend to be a little suspicious of new posters from time to time, especially if someone new is posting on a particularly emotive subject such as benefit cuts.

We are genuinely interested in your PhD though - what did you do it on?

I've been on urban for over 7 years but it's only the last year or so that I've felt sufficiently well-informed to post on some of the threads.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I may have been a bit people (fuckwit) intolerant at work today for most of the day for the same reason. No morphine for me, sadly


 
Is the cow who's in calf still working?


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Is the cow who's in calf still working?


Yes - 10 weeks to go. She was in meetings all morning, it was some muppet from a different department who was rude, dismissive and unmanaged. He also set up a 5 hour meeting with an external consultant without checking to see of people were actually free to attend (there's 6 hours of meetings already booked for that day). Your basic thoughtlessness, really, I was just a little (lot) less tolerant of his batshit hatstand ideas than usual.


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## stuff_it (Sep 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which rum?


Cockspur, I don't seem allergic and it's smooth enough to drink without all those nasty allergenic mixers.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 3, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> I wont dispute that but its close enough that people can pretty much work out one from the other.
> 
> Im not one to chase all over the internet to prove common knowledge as that ends up as a full time job.
> 
> ...


 
Are you going to engage with my first question?

I don't know either, if it wasn't late I'd do some research tonight to confirm my thoughts which is basically what stuff_it and VP have said - which is in the last few years the biggest rise has been in unemployment benefits (hardly surprising) but tha over the past couple or so decades it's been pensioners - who do claim 2/3rds of the benefits bill.
http://www.bevanfoundation.org/blog/five-things-for-cameron-to-remember/

So, are a group of people who have mostly worked and paid taxes all their lives addicted to state cash and in poverty for that reason?

If you're going to choose to only answer one question here, I'd prefer it to be the one I asked in my last post that oyu ignored, it's much more important. cheers.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Cockspur, I don't seem allergic and it's smooth enough to drink without all those nasty allergenic mixers.


 
Lovely stuff. Cockspur Old Gold and Havana Club 7 year old are my favourites. Both smooth and full of flavour. Can't stand rums that just taste of spirit (Bacardi) or burnt sugar (Lambs).


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Why would you banaid?


 
Because it goes to the damned fuzzy-wuzzies?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Lovely stuff. Cockspur Old Gold and Havana Club 7 year old are my favourites. Both smooth and full of flavour. Can't stand rums that just taste of spirit (Bacardi) or burnt sugar (Lambs).


what about wray & nephew?


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Are you going to engage with my first question?
> 
> I don't know either, if it wasn't late I'd do some research tonight to confirm my thoughts which is basically what stuff_it and VP have said - which is in the last few years the biggest rise has been in unemployment benefits (hardly surprising) but tha over the past couple or so decades it's been pensioners - who do claim 2/3rds of the benefits bill.
> http://www.bevanfoundation.org/blog/five-things-for-cameron-to-remember/
> ...


 
If it were as simple as that, there wouldn't really be a problem, would there? 
A problem, in my opinion, is that there is a significant minority of pensioners (about a 3rd, according to the JRF at the turn of the century) whose income is above the median national wage, and who effectively might be able to manage without their state pension, and a majority for whom the pension is inadequate, and who have no liquid assets. One might say "stop paying those with a high income their State Pension", but that begs the question "if you contributed to what was and is a universal scheme, why shouldn't you get paid out?".
I'm not particularly in favour of "those that have" getting more, but universality as a principle can't be abrogated without some very severe consequences, not least another breakage in the social compact and an increase in long-term admin costs for pensions.

As for addiction to state cash, that's far more an issue with business than it has ever been with "the people".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what about wray & nephew?


 
Lighter fuel!


----------



## BigTom (Sep 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> If it were as simple as that, there wouldn't really be a problem, would there?
> A problem, in my opinion, is that there is a significant minority of pensioners (about a 3rd, according to the JRF at the turn of the century) whose income is above the median national wage, and who effectively might be able to manage without their state pension, and a majority for whom the pension is inadequate, and who have no liquid assets. One might say "stop paying those with a high income their State Pension", but that begs the question "if you contributed to what was and is a universal scheme, why shouldn't you get paid out?".
> I'm not particularly in favour of "those that have" getting more, but universality as a principle can't be abrogated without some very severe consequences, not least another breakage in the social compact and an increase in long-term admin costs for pensions.
> 
> As for addiction to state cash, that's far more an issue with business than it has ever been with "the people".


 
Yeah, but I'm just trying to engage on principles here.. that it's more complicated than that is an issue to come onto afterwards I feel.

Anyway, I'm more interested in how a real-terms increasing spending on benefits automatically leads to the conclusion that it is unsustainable in our current system. I suspect there's a reason why Ash has dodged that question.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Yeah, but I'm just trying to engage on principles here.. that it's more complicated than that is an issue to come onto afterwards I feel.


 
Fair enough!



> Anyway, I'm more interested in how a real-terms increasing spending on benefits automatically leads to the conclusion that it is unsustainable in our current system. I suspect there's a reason why Ash has dodged that question.


 
You mean beyond the fact what is "unsustainable" is a matter of conjecture even for those involved in policy formulation, and tends to vary depending on the particular data you work from? 

I don't really see why Ash should be "dodging the question", because it's not a difficult one to answer *if* he has any faith in his opinion, or the evidence his opinion is based on, although I'd hope that the evidence extends beyond that table he posted a gif of.


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## BigTom (Sep 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fair enough!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Well yeah kind of but I want Ash to explain why s/he appears to think the unsustainablity is a neccessary function of increasing spending over time.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Well yeah kind of but I want Ash to explain why s/he appears to think the unsustainablity is a neccessary function of increasing spending over time.


 
So do I, believe me!


----------



## cesare (Sep 3, 2012)

So what's this Ash bloke/woman going on about then? In a nutshell?


----------



## treelover (Sep 4, 2012)

> Just one little rant before I go...
> There is a despicable and virulent strain of immorality, going around, where the virus attacks your morality and you start to hallucinate and believe the sick and disabled can work and there's nothing really wrong with most of them - they are faking it. This toxic virus is almost always deadly and it affects the moral senses, turning them in to a quagmire of filth and irrational hatred
> towards helpless innocents.You end up with delusions of moral outrage, and start idio-blithering.
> The immoraility virus is resisted by being vaccinated, and vaccination consists of a subtle mix of total scepticism, loads of care and compassion and the facts. Being disabled or chronically sick offers immediate and total protection against this viral moral epidemic.
> Be warned. The end, when it comes, from this virus, is very nasty indeed. It's hard not to puke right now, but they 've promised, worse is to come.


 
excellent satirical but incisive on CIF polemic from a well know campaigner...


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## stuff_it (Sep 4, 2012)

cesare said:


> So what's this Ash bloke/woman going on about then? In a nutshell?


Some sort or right-leaning ill conceived rant. Probably a troll, a politics student, or both.


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## Ash Mahay (Sep 4, 2012)

cesare said:


> So what's this Ash bloke/woman going on about then? In a nutshell?


 
For those who have paid attention what Ive said is a) welfare spending has increased over its history & b) there is a limit to how much it can increase to.

Both of those are actually facts (whatever a persons political persuassion).

The welfare system (as is) is basically floored, which isnt a criticism its just a simple case that it was designed to fit a world that doesnt exist any more (& probably never will again).

Its all very simple really.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 4, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> For those who have paid attention what Ive said is a) welfare spending has increased over its history & b) there is a limit to how much it can increase to.
> 
> Both of those are actually facts (whatever a persons political persuassion).
> 
> ...


 
'Flawed.' And while I agree it's hardly perfect the alternative that they're currently bringing in is much, much worse.


----------



## cesare (Sep 4, 2012)

A) there's nothing wrong per se, with welfare spending increasing throughout history. 
B) I don't see that there is a limit to how much it can increase to. There might be a limit on funding as matters stand at present.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 4, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> For those who have paid attention what Ive said is a) welfare spending has increased over its history & b) there is a limit to how much it can increase to.
> 
> Both of those are actually facts (whatever a persons political persuassion).
> 
> ...


 
ok, how does (a) relate to (b)?
Is it correct to say that there is a limit to how much real-terms spending can rise by? What is it that you think sets that limit?

You then propose that the welfare system is floored so I'm taking this to mean that you think that we have reached that limit, so having said what you think sets the limit, I'd like you to then show why you think we have reached that limit.

edit: just noticed weepipers post which in some ways makes more sense, especially if you are using a speak to text thing but in any case I think it's clear you reckon we've reached the limit so I'd like you to explain why that is the case.


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## stuff_it (Sep 4, 2012)

BigTom said:


> ok, how does (a) relate to (b)?
> Is it correct to say that there is a limit to how much real-terms spending can rise by? What is it that you think sets that limit?
> 
> You then propose that the welfare system is floored so I'm taking this to mean that you think that we have reached that limit, so having said what you think sets the limit, I'd like you to then show why you think we have reached that limit.
> ...


I'm waiting for the bit about immigration tbf. I expect Ash will be trotting it out soon enough, that or population control.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 4, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> I'm waiting for the bit about immigration tbf. I expect Ash will be trotting it out soon enough, that or population control.


 
maybe, though s/he could be more of the libertarian bent and they are often as not free borders types.. population control though as in not letting/helping the feckless breed poor by paying them to have kids I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Although if s/he doesn't answer my first question (which I've asked again slightly rephrased in that post) I'm going with my original feeling that s/he is a troll anyway.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Sadly, urban does get a lot of spam and trolls, so regular posters do tend to be a little suspicious of new posters from time to time, especially if someone new is posting on a particularly emotive subject such as benefit cuts.



Its not just this site. It is something observed not just across the internet but offline too (its the same root as some racism).

& I actually have 2 PhDs, not one. I got the first in this country and the 2nd from Stanford.

Im actually prouder of the 2nd as I was courted by Stanford & given my history I felt that was an achievement.

I was abandoned by my parents at birth (& then by my foster parents) I then went through kids homes, Borstal, approved school, detention center & youth custody, before turning 18 in another detention center and finally being released to the freedom of homelessness on the streets.

Given the state of the system in those days (sexual and violent abuse of residents at kids homes and very violent abuse of residents in Borstal) it was a very harrowing experiance.

I had less than a total of 2 years formal education all told and wasnt diagnosed as dyslexic untill after I was 18 (it wasnt commonly recognized in those days).

From that start I had to basically self educate myself and even qualifications, under those circumstances, dont always bring you the sort of validation that you seek, which is why being courted by a university meant so much.

Its also why Im not bothered by hostiles on the internet. Ive got enough life experience to know theres a lot worse out there.

Being "bullied" as the "new guy" on the internets not really very intimidating to someone whos watched kids being bullied literally to death.

I guess its also the reason why Im aware that its the same root as racism, partly as Ive experienced both but also because, having experienced both its the sort of thing that interests a person. Your logical reaction is to ask "why?".


----------



## weepiper (Sep 4, 2012)

Child Poverty Action Group report on the actual cost of bringing up children out today 

http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/new-cpag-report-cost-child


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 4, 2012)

*sings*

_Wheeeere have all the good trolls gone, we only get the rest..._


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 4, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Is it correct to say that there is a limit to how much real-terms spending can rise by?



Of course there is. 

If Johnny has 5 apples there is a limit of 5 apples that he can give away.

Its pre even basic economics.

If resources are finite (which they are in this present world) then if one spends more & more then eventually they reach a limit.

I know thats an over simplistic answer but is there anyone who isnt aware of these facts?


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 4, 2012)

For those without the time to trawl through the whole report, here's a few key quotes for you:



> There is broad consensus that children’s needs today comprise not
> just an adequate diet and the physical necessities of life, but also
> the ability to participate in society – for example, by going to
> birthday parties, taking part in after-school activities and having a
> ...


 
Sorry for the mega long post, but those are the most important bits of the report IMO.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 4, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> I'm waiting for the bit about immigration tbf. I expect Ash will be trotting it out soon enough, that or population control.



Lol youre not a very good reader of people are you. Did you fail to notice my name?

I dont really think with my surname Im likely to be at the front of a national front march against immagration, do you? 

lol


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

BigTom said:


> ok, how does (a) relate to (b)?
> Is it correct to say that there is a limit to how much real-terms spending can rise by? What is it that you think sets that limit?
> 
> You then propose that the welfare system is floored so I'm taking this to mean that you think that we have reached that limit, so having said what you think sets the limit, I'd like you to then show why you think we have reached that limit.
> ...


 
Oh you would, would you?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 4, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Of course there is.
> 
> If Johnny has 5 apples there is a limit of 5 apples that he can give away.
> 
> ...


 
Education isn't "finite", neither are rent controls, or other measures to deal with squalor and ignorance. Nothing "finate" in dealing with the spread of disease either.

For someone claiming two PhD's you don't half come out with a load of old trite and is clearly suckered into believing the neo-con school of thought.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 4, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> For those without the time to trawl through the whole report, here's a few key quotes for you:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for the mega long post, but those are the most important bits of the report IMO.


 
I'm working my way through it in bits, this bit stood out for me too



> Having children leaves adults on benefits worse off. Additional state support for families with children is lower than a child’s minimum needs, so families face a growing shortfall with each child. Parents react by spending less money on themselves; in some cases parents will even skip meals so that their children don’t go without. If a single parent of three children used his/her adult benefit income to top up the child-related benefits so the minimum needs of the children are met, they would have just £12 a week to meet their own basic needs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Its not just this site. It is something observed not just across the internet but offline too (its the same root as some racism).
> 
> & I actually have 2 PhDs, not one. I got the first in this country and the 2nd from Stanford.
> 
> ...


 
So, you were most likely born some time between the late '50s and late '60s, otherwise you wouldn't have experienced the overlap between approved schools and Borstals, and later, DCs. You also wouldn't have been able to access higher ed in the UK anywhere near as simply, however brilliant you are, what with most people born in the '70s having had a partial grant at best, rather than a full one.

As for qualifications, in my opinion anyone (whatever their circumstances) who sees them as a validation kind of misses the point. All they are is a marker along the lines of "this person has a bit of a clue about _X_ subject/half a clue about _Y_ subject/a fair clue about _Z_ subject" (unless we're talking MBAs, which just indicate "this person is an arse").


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Of course there is.
> 
> If Johnny has 5 apples there is a limit of 5 apples that he can give away.
> 
> ...


 
Of course they are, but your point is *too* simplistic.
Budgets aren't apples, and apples are (for the purposes of defining them as a resource) a renewable resource. In other words, while *some* resources are definitively finite (minerals, ores etc), others aren't, so lumping everything together under the rubric of "If resources are finite (which they are in this present world)..." misses the point, unless you're some kind of ideologically-committed Malthusian.
Of course, if you *were* a Malthusian, one would expect you to have the courage of your convictions, and to have stated the most obvious solution to resource scarcity (which you haven't), so you're probably not a Malthusian.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

weepiper said:


> I'm working my way through it in bits, this bit stood out for me too


 
Yep. I remember having to explain this to my sister when her husband first buggered off and left her in the lurch, and how, unless she wanted herself and her kids to become increasingly unhealthy, she *had* to get the bugger to cough up for his kids, because what the state would give her wouldn't cover it.
Just another shitty indication of how much of an afterthought children are in so much policy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Education isn't "finite", neither are rent controls, or other measures to deal with squalor and ignorance. Nothing "finate" in dealing with the spread of disease either.


 
Quite. Finiteness, even for some refined materials, isn't "perfect". To give a simple example, many rare metals are recyclable to some degree, even from complex consumer products like micro-electronics.
Probably the most immediate issue to do with finite capacity is food production, but even there, we're not *sure* what that capacity is, and when it will be overmatched.



> For someone claiming two PhD's you don't half come out with a load of old trite and is clearly suckered into believing the neo-con school of thought.


 
To be fair, Francis Fukyourmama and Sam Cuntingdon have Phds, and they've both grooved on neo-con and neolib ideology. Degree of education isn't inversely proportional to ignorance, stupidity or cuntitude!


----------



## weepiper (Sep 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yep. I remember having to explain this to my sister when her husband first buggered off and left her in the lurch, and how, unless she wanted herself and her kids to become increasingly unhealthy, she *had* to get the bugger to cough up for his kids, because what the state would give her wouldn't cover it.
> Just another shitty indication of how much of an afterthought children are in so much policy.


 
I might print it out and staple it to my kids' dad's nice expensive leather sofa.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, you were most likely born some time between the late '50s and late '60s, otherwise you wouldn't have experienced the overlap between approved schools and Borstals, and later, DCs. You also wouldn't have been able to access higher ed in the UK anywhere near as simply, however brilliant you are, what with most people born in the '70s having had a partial grant at best, rather than a full one.



With the law of averages someone had to make a correct guess eventually, although the grant comment is irrelevant as I never had one.



> As for qualifications, in my opinion anyone (whatever their circumstances) who sees them as a validation kind of misses the point.



Dont they validate that that person has that Knowledge?

It may be a sign of weakness but dont you think some people of my sort of background, at some point, might need, or benefit from that form of validation?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course they are, but your point is *too* simplistic.
> Budgets aren't apples, and apples are (for the purposes of defining them as a resource) a renewable resource. In other words, while *some* resources are definitively finite (minerals, ores etc), others aren't, so lumping everything together under the rubric of "If resources are finite (which they are in this present world)..." misses the point, unless you're some kind of ideologically-committed Malthusian.
> Of course, if you *were* a Malthusian, one would expect you to have the courage of your convictions, and to have stated the most obvious solution to resource scarcity (which you haven't), so you're probably not a Malthusian.



Please tell me youre playing over simplistic semantics here and that your understanding of basic economics really isnt that poor.

Sure there are renewables and recyclables but they are definrd as finite on the basis that they have a finite worth.

You knew that didnt you & you were just trying to be clever?

Lets not take this back to Johnny & apple production as Im really not here to teach such basics & if that was the level here Id be better off signing up at some kids forum lol


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> With the law of averages someone had to make a correct guess eventually, although the grant comment is irrelevant as I never had one.


 
Hmm, the only person I know from that era who didn't have a grant, was me, and that was due to a series of unlikely circumstances which didn't really matter because I'd already saved the money to put me through my first degree.




> Dont they validate that that person has that Knowledge?


 
Not really, only that the person *absorbed/had* the knowledge for long enough to get the qualification, not that they retained it! 



> It may be a sign of weakness but dont you think some people of my sort of background, at some point, might need, or benefit from that form of validation?


I think that some people, whatever their situation or background, need it. I also think that many people, whatever their situation or background, don't need it. They might *enjoy* validation, but it's not some form of existential necessity unless you so uncertain of yourself that you require it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Please tell me youre playing over simplistic semantics here and that your understanding of basic economics really isnt that poor.
> 
> Sure there are renewables and recyclables but they are definrd as finite on the basis that they have a finite worth.
> 
> ...


 
Actually, the reason I wrote it was to see where your argument proceeded from. Now I know.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

weepiper said:


> I might print it out and staple it to my kids' dad's nice expensive leather sofa.


 
It couldn't happen to a more deserving character!


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 4, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Lol youre not a very good reader of people are you. Did you fail to notice my name?
> 
> I dont really think with my surname Im likely to be at the front of a national front march against immagration, do you?
> 
> lol


You know it's funny, but my birth certificate doesn't actually say stuff_it. 

I had completely forgotten that the only racists, bigots and right wingers in the world are members of the National Front, thanks for the reminder we all so clearly needed.


----------



## treelover (Sep 4, 2012)

This 'debate' really shouldn't be on a sticky about campaigns, challenges(such as they are) to the Govt's welfare reforms...


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not really, only that the person *absorbed/had* the knowledge for long enough to get the qualification, not that they retained it!



The picture is becoming clearer! So semantics & circles is your bag?

Ok so it only validates that the person had absorbed enough info at that moment etc.

After a few posts of verbal masturbation though were still basically at the same (relatively unimportant point).

Im guessing this is your usual m.o?

Run it around for a few posts playing circles and semantics & then claim to have used the other person as canon fodder when theyve got bored & pissed off?

;-)

Ive played that game before lol

Ok we can define the validation in anyway that pleases you. Do you have another point?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Actually, the reason I wrote it was to see where your argument proceeded from. Now I know.



lol I had to like that answer. So you only talked drivel to see where my answer came from?

How convenient that youre not really that ignorant but only playing lol

Its a good job youre going VERY VERY EASY on Me!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> The picture is becoming clearer! So semantics & circles is your bag?
> 
> Ok so it only validates that the person had absorbed enough info at that moment etc.
> 
> ...


 
No-one claimed to have used you as cannon-fodder, you arse.



> ;-)
> 
> Ive played that game before lol
> 
> Ok we can define the validation in anyway that pleases you. Do you have another point?


 
Do you have *any*?

As for "semantics", it's not about semantics, it's about clarity - about establishing if what one poster says/means is what another poster understands them to say/mean, and about not *assuming* that such is the case. As a veteran of the internet, surely you've noticed that text-based communication is one of those areas where clarity is to be preferred?
Or maybe not, eh?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> lol I had to like that answer. So you only talked drivel to see where my answer came from?
> 
> How convenient that youre not really that ignorant but only playing lol
> 
> Its a good job youre going VERY VERY EASY on Me!


 
I didn't talk drivel, I made a point. Your answer to that point indicated something I wished to know - where your understanding of economics proceeds from. It's as simple as that.


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 4, 2012)

treelover said:


> This 'debate' really shouldn't be on a sticky about campaigns, challenges(such as they are) to the Govt's welfare reforms...


People like Ash clearly *are* a challenge to the anti-cuts campaign, tbf.

Anyway, seeing as resources are supposedly finite should we ban eating meat? It's very resource heavy for what you get and most of it these days is poor quality - a bit like our trolls have gone.



Ash Mahay said:


> lol I had to like that answer. So you only talked drivel to see where my answer came from?
> 
> How convenient that youre not really that ignorant but only playing lol
> 
> Its a good job youre going VERY VERY EASY on Me!


3












2










1


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> You know it's funny, but my birth certificate doesn't actually say stuff_it.


 
So your middle name *isn't* "bumfinger"? 



> I had completely forgotten that the only racists, bigots and right wingers in the world are members of the National Front, thanks for the reminder we all so clearly needed.


 
If only life were that simple! Can you imagine how much easier that would have made/make physical force anti-fascism? 
As it is, we have plenty of white and BME bigots, racists and right-wingers to go with the douche nozzles who join the NF. Colour and creed don't come into it, unfortunately.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

TBF, I'm hoping Mr. Mahay will shift his ideas about the non-sustainability of welfare onto a fresh thread, so that this one can get back to its original purpose. That way, his ideas can be supported/challenged/laughed at/lauded without derailing a thread that was set up for a specific reason (even though it does occasionally wander off-track).


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, I'm hoping Mr. Mahay will shift his ideas about the non-sustainability of welfare onto a fresh thread, so that this one can get back to its original purpose. That way, his ideas can be supported/challenged/laughed at/lauded without derailing a thread that was set up for a specific reason (even though it does occasionally wander off-track).


TBF you have to admit that he was being fairly non-traditionalist in not just wandering in, posting up an inflammatory thread title and then scarper. Just not that in to nuskool trolling unless it's funny.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 4, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Of course there is.
> 
> If Johnny has 5 apples there is a limit of 5 apples that he can give away.
> 
> ...


 
Let's step out of analogy here, there's no need for it. What is the thing that you are using to define a limit - what is the total number of apples analagous to in the real world? 

over simplistic is not often a good thing in economics and there's no need to simplify this with analogies.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Of course there is.
> 
> If Johnny has 5 apples there is a limit of 5 apples that he can give away.
> 
> ...


What if you have an apple tree? This isn't even at the level of "pre even basic economics."


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> TBF you have to admit that he was being fairly non-traditionalist in not just wandering in, posting up an inflammatory thread title and then scarper. Just not that in to nuskool trolling unless it's funny.


 
I don't believe he's a troll of any sort. More a poster in the style of J.Scone or Mustardid, who were happier feeling that they are/were an "odd man out" on a board, and who couldn't be arsed to explain what informs their posts.


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## stuff_it (Sep 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't believe he's a troll of any sort. More a poster in the style of J.Scone or Mustardid, who were happier feeling that they are/were an "odd man out" on a board, and who couldn't be arsed to explain what informs their posts.


Perhaps he should bimble over to Threads and Dreads for some shampoo advice?


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> What if you have an apple tree? This isn't even at the level of "pre even basic economics."


 
Apple trees are finite, apparently.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Perhaps he should bimble over to Threads and Dreads for some shampoo advice?


 
Baby shampoo? Why we were lucky if we didn't get our 'eads scoured with Vim and then rinsed with cold piss when I were a bairn!


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> What if you have an apple tree? This isn't even at the level of "pre even basic economics."





ViolentPanda said:


> Apple trees are finite, apparently.


Apples don't grow on trees you know


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Apples don't grow on trees you know


 
You killed the thread, Dave.


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 4, 2012)

TRUTH HURTS


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2012)

So does a kick in the apples!


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 4, 2012)

You're mixing up apples and oranges. Or plums.


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## stuff_it (Sep 4, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> You're mixing up apples and oranges. Or plums.


Sounds like sour grapes to me.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 5, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Sounds like sour grapes to me.


 
No need to get ugli about it!


----------



## BigTom (Sep 5, 2012)

Right so the two new faces (nearly mistyped faeces there, not sure why..) at the DWP we've got to deal with are:

Esther McVeigh - disabilities minister
http://www.dpac.uk.net/2012/09/more...edium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+uk/BHMU+(DPAC)

http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2012/02/26/esther-mcvey-payroll-workfare/ 

sounds horrible, helped IDS setup the Centre for Social Justice, loves workfare. 

and employment minister is Mark Hoban

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2012/09/04/who-the-fuck-is-mark-hoban/

sounds like a bit of a non-entity but ready to be surprised. dodgy expenses claims detailed in links in comments on the blog.

so there you go. Grayling's going to continue to fuck with us at justice by gunning for employment & benefit tribunals. I don't see that this makes any much difference, I hope that Hoban is nowhere near as competent as grayling and feels the pressure more than he did but he's an accountant so it'll just be about number crunching and getting benefit payments down.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 5, 2012)

Had an answer to your oft-repeated question yet, Tom?


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## stuff_it (Sep 5, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Right so the two new faces (nearly mistyped faeces there, not sure why..)


Tell me about your mother...

*strokes chin*


----------



## BigTom (Sep 5, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Had an answer to your oft-repeated question yet, Tom?


 
No and I'm off to Bestival tomorrow morning.. don't know if Ash has been online since the last time s/he evaded my question though. I really wanted to lead Ash through the reasoning too but I guess I'll just have to lay out why s/he is making a category error about rising spending being unsustainable, which is a shame because people learn better when they are made to go through the reasoning and come to an answer themselves, rather than just being told.
Going to give it till later tonight though, perhaps Ash will return before then..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 5, 2012)

BigTom said:


> No and I'm off to Bestival tomorrow morning.. don't know if Ash has been online since the last time s/he evaded my question though.


 
Several times.



> I really wanted to lead Ash through the reasoning too but I guess I'll just have to lay out why s/he is making a category error about rising spending being unsustainable, which is a shame because people learn better when they are made to go through the reasoning and come to an answer themselves, rather than just being told.
> Going to give it till later tonight though, perhaps Ash will return before then..


 
We can live in hope.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 5, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Of course there is.
> 
> If Johnny has 5 apples there is a limit of 5 apples that he can give away.
> 
> ...


 
ok well having just seen you around on the travellers thread, perhaps the quote will bring you here but I doubt it..

Anyway, I'm now going to explain the category error you are making that I was hoping to lead you to so you'd learn something, never quite as good when it just gets laid out, and you were getting there so it's a shame but there you go.
I'll stick to your patronising analogy for the moment since that's the level you seem to be happy with.

5 apples.. this year I'll give away 3. I'm going to give away 4 next year and 5 the year after.. limit reached yeh? but I'm going to give 6 away the year after that.. oh no! pre-basic economics! I can't do that can I?
Actually yer I can, because the number of apples I'm producing each year has grown as well - from 5 to 7 to 10 to 15.. In fact, whilst my apple giving has been rising every year it's become more and more sustainable.

Now the logical corresponding thing in the real world to the apples is GDP - the total product of our nation each year, and (if we discount borrowing abilities cos that's just putting a commitment off) this is the limit for what we can spend on welfare. Be a bit of an odd world to spend 100% of gdp on welfare but you certainly couldn't spend more than that.

Real terms spending measurements take into account inflation which you obviously have to do, but they don't take into account the rise in GDP that has also happened, and therefore tell us nothing (absolutely zero) about the sustainability of our welfare spending.

If we have a look at welfare spending as a proportion of GDP we get a rather different story to the one your painting:







from: http://duncanseconomicblog.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/welfare-spending-some-facts/ which links through to the source data set.
It's worth noting that this data set counts state pension separately from welfare spending, when the two are often conflated by politicians to up the amount we're supposedly throwing at scroungers.

The pensions graph looks like this - though I don't know why the data only starts in the early 90s - my suspicion is that prior to that year they were included together in this data set, there is a big big drop in welfare spending in 94 or 95 - if that's true then the amount of benefits spending in the previous years is actually lower than shown in that graph:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_1950_2011UKp_10c1li111mcn_00t

It's risen by about 2% of GDP in the past 20ish years though - and backs up what I said earlier which is that pensions make up the largest part of growth in welfare spending.

Anyway, you never answered whether you think that pensioners who've mostly worked and paid taxes all their life are addicted to state cash and should have welfare removed, mostly people don't so I'm leaving pensions out of this.

So what can we see from welfare spending - oh yeah, it's fallen year on year as a % GDP since the mid-80s, bar during the recession of the early 90s. It was pretty steady in the 50s, rose a bit in the 60s and then from the mid-70s to mid-80s rose more quickly as the oil crisis and subsequent recessions saw real wages falling, huge inflation (which I'm assuming would have meant benefits rising faster than wages as they have done in the past year - were benefit levels tied to inflation then?) and unemployment rising.
It then steadies off in the mid-90s until the recession of the last couple of years.
It's currently at a level similar to that of the 1950s and well below 10% of national income..

I don't think that's an unsustainable level, and I hope you can see now that we are nowhere near the limit of spending, and understand why real terms rising spending figures on their own tell you absolutely zip about how sustainable the spending is. if you've come back to look at this thread that is.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 5, 2012)

Nothing from ash  not that I'm surprised though.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2012)

Social Welfare Union response to reports in the media which claim that the Coalition Government and the Department For And Pensions (DWP) are looking to introduce increased sanctions against Disabled benefit claimants who fail to adhere to ‘Work Related Activity’ in return for their Benefits'.

http://socialwelfareunion.org/archives/2331


----------



## extra dry (Sep 10, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Nothing from ash  not that I'm surprised though.


 
I believe Ash may think welfare spending is planned on a 'I have apples this year...' approach. Nice explanation of the figures. Other factors like fraud and mismanagement add to the costs.


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 12, 2012)

Check this out, you couldn't make it up! 



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15267426



> Tighter expenses rules 'harming MPs' mental health'
> 
> The new, tougher expenses regime is damaging MPs' "mental wellbeing", the doctor who looks after them has said.
> Dr Ira Madan told a committee looking into the system that its "frustrations and difficulties" had increased workloads but decreased rewards.


 
Poor little mites.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 12, 2012)

> "MPs recognise that the nature of their job will inevitably disrupt their family life but the current allowance system appears to obstruct rather than encourage members to spend as much time as their job allows with their families," she wrote in her written evidence.


 
Just like the rest of us then. Slackers the lot of 'em.


----------



## extra dry (Sep 12, 2012)

from the internal reading of the people who are working with the unemployed best interests at heart..


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## NoXion (Sep 12, 2012)

extra dry said:


> from the internal reading of the people who are working with the unemployed best interests at heart..
> 
> [snip image]


 
Where is that from precisely? That picture has raised my blood pressure something rotten. Whoever compose that has nothing but contempt for working class people...


----------



## weepiper (Sep 12, 2012)

NoXion said:


> Where is that from precisely? That picture has raised my blood pressure something rotten. Whoever compose that has nothing but contempt for working class people...


 
There's a whole thread

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/people-on-benefits-lol.298937/


----------



## BigTom (Sep 12, 2012)

Birmingham's most vulnerable will be £181/month worse off after benefit cuts:
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/...800181/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter



> A BIRMINGHAM welfare advice service has predicted that the city’s most vulnerable people will be £181 per month worse off under Government changes to benefits.
> 
> Freshwinds, which has provided advice to benefit claimants in the city since 1992, says that the impact of housing benefit caps and the introduction of the Universal Credit from next year could lead to an increase in child poverty as costs of living, including fuel bills, rise but benefit payouts plummet.


 
This comes from a report/submission to committee by 17 different orgs in Birmingham, which I'm going to read through and write up for the birmingham against the cuts website.. it's available here:
http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/democr...20911+-+Welfare+Reform+Inquiry+-+Evidence.pdf


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

Great news, TUC vote to oppose workfare and scrap ATOS tests...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 12, 2012)

Private firms' role in creation of disability assessment regime
Guardian Letters


> This week the sixth International Forum on Disability Management, IFDM 2012, takes place at Imperial College London. It is sponsored by some of the world's largest medical insurance companies, Unum among them, and speakers include DWP chief medical adviser Dr Bill Gunyeon and Professor Sir Mansel Aylward, formerly DWP chief medical adviser and director of the Centre for Psychosocial and Disability Research at Cardiff University, which was sponsored by Unum from its inception in 2003 until 2009.
> Unum's website states that during this sponsorship period "a series of papers was published, identifying the range of factors that determine why some people become long-term absentees". The Cardiff papers advocated a "biopsychosocial model" of disability which Unum says "informed its approach to medical underwriting". It is the same approach upon which the current Atos work capability assessment (WCA) is based. Concomitantly, the company were advising the UK government on welfare reform.
> On 4 September, during an emergency debate on Atos and the WCA held in parliament, Labour MP Kevin Brennan demanded to know if DWP minister Chris Grayling was as concerned as he was "that Atos's chief medical officer is one Professor Michael O'Donnell, who was previously employed as chief medical officer by the American insurance company, Unum, which was described by the insurance commissioner for California, John Garamendi, as an 'outlaw company' that has operated in an unlawful fashion for many years, running (disability) claims denial factories."
> We condemn the Royal Society of Medicine's decision to host IFDM 2012. By so doing, it has lent an aura of legitimacy to a pseudo-scientific approach to disability that is as far from evidence-based medicine as it is possible to imagine. It is an approach that continues to devastate the lives of patients, scores of whom are tragically no longer with us as a direct result.
> ...


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

Is there a lobby, if not, why not?

what a lost opportunity


----------



## ash (Sep 13, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Nothing from ash  not that I'm surprised though.



I've never been so popular!!


----------



## Greebo (Sep 13, 2012)

ash said:


> I've never been so unpopular!!


CFY sweetie.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 13, 2012)

ash said:


> I've never been so popular!!


 
You going to respond to the point i made?

edit: whoops, VP has pointed out my error, sorry


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2012)

BigTom said:


> You going to respond to the point i made?


 
Different poster, Tom.
ash isn't the same as Ash Mahay, who's the Billy Two-shits you're thinking of.


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

anyone had experience of applying for road tax exemption?


----------



## BigTom (Sep 13, 2012)

Birmingham faces social meltdown under welfare reforms claims Birmingham CAB chief executive

http://www.birminghampost.net/news/...e-reforms-claims-city-charity-65233-31823764/



> Yvonne Davies, chief executive of Birmingham Citizens Advice Bureau and a Sandwell Labour councillor, told a city council inquiry into welfare reform that they should expect an increase in burglaries and crime if people’s income is cut.
> 
> She also warned that businesses could be hit as household belts tighten leading to knock on effect for the local economy.
> 
> ...


 
I've just read through the 90 page report that this and the previous post about £181/month cuts came from and it makes for a shit afternoon's reading, though not at all surprising. No idea how I'm going to write it up for the batc website, there's just so much info in there over a wide range of different benefits. Universally though they are saying it's going to be really bad, and particularly increase homelessness.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 13, 2012)

£181 a month is a hell of a lot of money


----------



## BigTom (Sep 13, 2012)

yep. All in housing benefit, based on a 26 year old who is unemployed.. they'll be getting £55/week in the new LHA which is just about enough to get a room in a shared house in a cheap area, but it won't be a decent house.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 13, 2012)

Thanks for actually making my point (or at least one of them) for me



BigTom said:


> ok well having just seen you around on the travellers thread, perhaps the quote will bring you here but I doubt it..



Ive actually had zero alerts for this thread, not sure why. I only looked just now as the threads in "new posts".



> Be a bit of an odd world to spend 100% of gdp on welfare but you certainly couldn't spend more than that



So there is a limit, just as I said?



> It's risen by about 2% of GDP in the past 20ish years though



So you confirm there is a limit & we are moving in the direction of it?

Isnt that what I said?



> It's currently at a level similar to that of the 1950s



Not even close. Its actually at about 50% higher and as you rightly point out its been at much higher levels.

So was that the point you wanted to lead me too as it sounds pretty much where we were before & all thats ignoring several very important facts like for example that at its peak pensions were once about 25% of the average weekly wage but are currently closer to 15%, whilst the cost of living has risen, so despite the fact were spending around 50% more on welfare today most pensioners are actually considerably worse off.

Are you starting to see the obvious yet?

Its time to think afresh.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 13, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Thanks for actually making my point (or at least one of them) for me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Do you accept that rising real terms spending levels do not show that we are approaching that limit? That was what you were saying at the start of this, and what I was responding to:




			
				Ash Mahay said:
			
		

> In the context of this thread it refers to the fact that, over the history of the modern welfare state, spending has increased.
> 
> We might argue by to much, or by not enough, but the reality is that it has increased & that the current model, placed next to the economic model(s) of the same period, is unsustainable, without a change to one, or other.


 
In the 1950s for most years welfare spending was around 5%, most of the 00s it was around 6%, that's not 50% higher, it's 20% higher but looking at % rises like that is foolish when you start at such a low base. The difference in spending is roughly 1 percentage point. Except for the last couple of years anyway, but that's hardly a surprise and no evidence of unsustainability either, unless you are planning for this recession to last for decades...
1 percentage point rise over 60ish years - and with a figure that has been decreasing over the past 15-20 years - is it really unsustainable to spend 6% of GDP on welfare?

So you want to include pensions in this do you? Do you think that pensioners, who have mostly worked and paid taxes all their lives, are addicted to state cash and need to have their benefits cut to free them?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 13, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Do you accept that rising real terms spending levels do not show that we are approaching those levels?



Why would I accept something thats patently not true?

The posts above (both mine & yours) demonstrate exactly what direction were moving in.

Ill skip over your soft economics because even after massaging your figures they still back what I said.



> So you want to include pensions in this do you? Do you think that pensioners, who have mostly worked and paid taxes all their lives, are addicted to state cash and need to have their benefits cut to free them?



No. But talking of pension cuts do you care to comment on the drop in pensions from 25% of average wages to 15% while living costs have risen? Do you think thats fair?

Its what weve witnessed & will continue to witness until people pull their heads from their backsides & start accepting reality & actually start thinking about these things.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 13, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Why would I accept something thats patently not true?


 
So you think that rising real terms spending levels are definite proof that we are approaching (or even heading towards) the limits of our spending capabilities? Do you accept that the limit of our spending is based around GDP?



> The posts above (both mine & yours) demonstrate exactly what direction were moving in.
> 
> Ill skip over your soft economics because even after massaging your figures they still back what I said.


 
Yes, downwards or stable for the past 20 odd years. I'd love you to explain how I'm massaging figures.




> No. But talking of pension cuts do you care to comment on the drop in pensions from 25% of average wages to 15% while living costs have risen? Do you think thats fair?
> 
> Its what weve witnessed & will continue to witness until people pull their heads from their backsides & start accepting reality & actually start thinking about these things.


 
So you don't want to include pensions in this, why bring them up?

Shockingly I don't think it's right that pensions have dropped so much in real and relative terms, what do you propose as a solution to this?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 13, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Yes, downwards or stable for the past 20 odd years. I'd love you to explain how I'm massaging figures.



Youve answered yourself there. How is it downward or stable when (a) its greater & (b) people are getting less?

Im sorry the facts dont give you the answers you want but they are the facts.



> So you don't want to include pensions in this, why bring them up?
> 
> Shockingly I don't think it's right that pensions have dropped so much in real and relative terms, what do you propose as a solution to this?



Its not just pensions either. If everything was at peak levels, if people werent subject to devious sanctions, what percentage of gdp would we be at then?

Think about that, go work it out & then come back & tell me Im not right.

You ask what do I propose. Ive said earlier, on more than one occassion, I dont have the answers but what I do know is that when you peel back the lies, the fudges, the spin & 60 years of manipulation that you find a system built for a world that doesnt even exist today & that the right solution is to actually start thinking of an alternative thats better.

Is that really such a bad thing?

I dont like to think that cutting benefits, for everyone, by quite large margins, over periods where cost of living has risen, in a system that does cost more is really the acceptable solution that many on this thread seem to think it is.

Perhaps if people let go of sacred cows, quit repeating out dated mantras & started actually thinking for themselves, acknowledged problems & started looking for solutions we might become a forward thinking country again.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 13, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Youve answered yourself there. How is it downward or stable when (a) its greater & (b) people are getting less?
> 
> Im sorry the facts dont give you the answers you want but they are the facts.
> 
> ...


 
So you'll ignore my first point again - how does rising real terms spending provide any evidence of unsustainability, since it does not reference GDP at all?.

Yes, downwards - look at the GDP graph I posted and tell me that we don't spend less on welfare as % gdp than we did 20 years ago, that the 00s didn't average less than the 80s, (or 70s or 60s for that matter, but spending was rising during that time).
If people are getting less, how has spending increased? Or are you simply talking about pensions again?

I don't think that JSA sanctions will make that much of a difference tbh, even though there are hundreds of thousands each year, it'll be probably a few hundred millions of pounds in a budget of tens of billions..

The bit in bold really confuses me - I don't think anyone on this thread thinks benefits should be cut by large margins for anyone, let alone everyone, but you've suggested it should be talking about welfare being a poverty trap and claiming we are reaching the limits of spending and it's unsustainable.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 13, 2012)

> The bit in bold really confuses me - I don't think anyone on this thread thinks benefits should be cut by large margins for anyone, let alone everyone, but you've suggested it should be talking about welfare being a poverty trap and claiming we are reaching the limits of spending and it's unsustainable.



Now read my very first post again. I contend that it is exactly what people are advocating, even though I doubt a single one is aware of it.

Imagine we actually had this discussion decades ago. Those pensioners, on 15% of average wage would have settled the discussion today because they are living proof of the real cuts made so we can pretend the systems not as broken as it really is.

The weird thing is though, if we had this discussion decades ago I probably would have posted what youve posted in this thread. I learned I was wrong though.

Did you do the research I suggested above?

I really recomend it. The results are startling & the lies around our welfare system are huge.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 13, 2012)

What research?


----------



## BigTom (Sep 13, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> A bit confused by this thread. Is it a campaign against poverty or a campaign against welfare cuts? Long term the positions are direct opposites. As a welfare recipient I cant say Im thrilled by current legislation but to combat poverty one has to look at the causes of poverty rather than relying on the temporary bandaid of a bankrupt welfare system.
> 
> Yes I dont like the effects of these (& other) cuts, however Id rather campaign against poverty than for short term fixes that will merely create more poverty in the future.
> 
> ...


 
This was your first post. In it you say that benefits cause poverty in the long term.

but now you are saying that you don't think benefits should be cut. In fact you seem to be saying we should be raising benefits - even though in your opinion from your first post, this has the effect of causing poverty. 

Now I agree that welfare system doesn't address the causes of poverty, but from your posts I doubt you are a socialist revolutionary seeking to encourage us to overthrow capitalism to implement an economic system which creates a fairer distribution of resources ensuring that there is no poverty..

so all I get is a confused muddle.. you shy away saying you don't know what the answer is but even the things you say about the current situation are confused and incorrect.

You've still not explained why rising real terms spending shows unsustainability when it makes no reference to GDP.. I won't bother speaking to you again if you don't even attempt to explain this tbh.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 14, 2012)

Welfare reforms will make child poverty targets "unnachievable"
http://birminghamagainstthecuts.wor...forms-make-child-poverty-target-unachievable/

This is the first article I'm going to write from the report by Birmingham orgs into welfare reforms I linked on the last page.. I was planning to do a single article but there is so much there that I'm going to do a few, one on universal credit, one on disability benefits and one on homelessness/housing.. possibly one on young people as well.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 14, 2012)

So, still no answer to your actual question, Tom?


----------



## BigTom (Sep 14, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, still no answer to your actual question, Tom?


 
No, but I'm not checking up on Ash Mahay to see if s/he has been around on the boards since last night. I'm a patient man, I can wait. I suspect it may be some time


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 15, 2012)

AHEM...
Former DWP medical boss makes WCA pledge to protesters


> A former Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) medical director has pledged to speak out about the government’s “fitness for work” test if he finds it is “not proper”, after he was ambushed by campaigners at a conference.
> Professor Sir Mansel Aylward had been delivering a keynote speech on the controversial issue of the different “models” used by professionals to explain disability, to the International Forum on Disability Management in central London.
> The biennial forum brings together delegates from across the world to discuss how to “manage” disability in the workplace, with those attending including employers, senior figures in the insurance industry, and government and union officials.
> Sir Mansel is closely associated with the biopsychosocial (BPS) model, which campaigners say puts much of the blame for disability on the disabled person, rather than the social model explanation, which says disability is created by the barriers of attitude and environment disabled people face.
> ...


Don't hold your breath waiting on him finding the tests 'not fit and proper' as he's one of those involved right from the very begining in the attack on us.


----------



## treelover (Sep 15, 2012)

http://www.racp.edu.au/index.cfm?objectid=58C41516-C2D1-1FF1-8CC71B74C8444FB3

This is a key architect of the whole welfare reform project and the ideology of workfare , he worked closely with John Locascio of UNUM(see above) and of course is or was Emeritus professor of the Centre for Psychosocial and Disability Research, sponsored by UNUM. He is a former CMO of the DWP and create the infamous 'all works test'. He was the key figure in the seminal BBC Panorama Doc, 'Britain on the Sick' and along with Simon Wessely(possible ex Living Marxism) and Peter White, a central figure of the biopsychosocial (BPS) model and school.

Google 'margaret williams' she has written extensively about Alyward and the BPS model,

there is no other more significant figure in the recent history of welfare/benefits...

btw, Wesseley uses a similar tactic to Alyward, feigning a lack of interest/disillusionment in his own work/ideas, while really carrying it all on...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 15, 2012)

Scunners me that Wessley is married to Clare Gerada, head of the RCGPs who is fighting NHS privatisation. They really must leave work and ethics outside their front door when they get home.


----------



## treelover (Sep 15, 2012)

I think Clare is ex Living Marxism..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 15, 2012)

treelover said:


> I think Clare is ex Living Marxism..


Cross pollination of politics has never been sucessfull in any relationship I, and others I know, have had. Pairings like this do make me wonder....


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 15, 2012)

Disability and Universal Credit download from CAB. 


> This briefing looks at four particular financial changes for disabled children, adults and their families, and considers how they will interact with the broader universal credit changes. Whilst three of the changes are cuts and one is an increase, not all the people affected by the specific losses and gains will lose or gain overall in the way that might be expected. This briefing will unpick some of that complexity.


Actual downoad pdf link 

Just going to make a cuppa and have a read of this.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 15, 2012)

cheers for the link Frankie, I'll be having a look at that later as well


----------



## treelover (Sep 16, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/16/wonga-trebles-earnings-loans

'Legitimate Loanshark' Wonga's earnings triple


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 16, 2012)

Guardian Letters
Our support for disabled people


> Sunday 16 September 2012 21.00 BST
> The letter (13 September) from John McArdle and Dr Stephen Carty of the Black Triangle Campaign attacked Unum's reputation. At Unum we are proud of the work we do to protect the income of and provide support to people with long-term illnesses or injuries that prevent them from working. The financial protection we offer continues until they either recover and are able to return to work, or until they reach retirement. We also offer rehabilitation support to those returning to work after a long-term illness. Unum is committed to improving the understanding of the factors that influence health, illness, recovery, rehabilitation and reintegration. That's why we took part in the International Forum on Disability Management at Imperial College London. We work hard to protect the incomes of more than 1.9 million people in the UK. We are proud to have paid out more than £5m a week in benefits to our customers last year.
> *Marco Forato*
> _Chief marketing officer, Unum UK_


----------



## treelover (Sep 17, 2012)

Telegraph is reporting lowest support for benefits amongst the public for thirty years,(British Social Attitudes Survey) not surprised given the systematic campaign waged by the gov't and a supine media

On my local fora, someone who has lost everything in a house fire is being got at for not 'having insurance,'buying an Ipod, etc' the State has done its work well..

btw, that's a fantastic letter by the BTC, etc in the Guardian..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 17, 2012)

treelover said:


> < snip >' the State has done its work well..


Hasn't it just.


----------



## treelover (Sep 17, 2012)

The thing is its self-reinforcing(is that the right term?) Govts and media create moral panic, then they 'open the debate' and its a very selective one, for instance on phone ins, most people are not bothered either way, but there are a number of people who are obsessed by 'benefit scroungers' 'fraudsters' etc, they are ones who get on the airways. You also have the constant fraud stories, local individual cases(leaked by the increasingly sinister DWP) and hyped up into national scandals in the media, then the cry goes out again, something should be done!, and it continues, in the U.S the demand is to stop food stamps, ffs...

btw, there are still large numbers of social policy courses, academics, researchers, in the UK, what are they teaching, have they been co-opted now?


----------



## treelover (Sep 17, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2012/sep/17/do-benefits-create-dependency


Poll in Guardian on 'benefit dependency', the misanthropes are pouring in to vote yes..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 17, 2012)

*HoC Work and Pensions Committee 

Grimond Room
Meeting starts at 4.30pm
Universal Credit*

Witnesses

Rt Hon Iain Duncan Smith MP, Secretary of State, and Lord Freud, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Welfare Reform, Department for Work and Pensions 

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11424


----------



## BigTom (Sep 18, 2012)

Benefits - inflation link probably going to be axed although the Telegraph article on this story is playing down the possibility which is interesting though makes me think something worse is going to happen..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...too-complex-to-break-link-with-inflation.html



> There were reports last night that benefits could be frozen to save billions of pounds in public spending.
> 
> The BBC reported that ministers are considering breaking the link between benefits levels and inflation, saving billions of pounds a year.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Sep 18, 2012)

Any reports on the Smith meeting with the WPC?


----------



## weepiper (Sep 18, 2012)

Wasn't sure which thread to post this on but

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-19639952



> In a statement read out by the committee clerk, Mr Sherlock, 50, who is blind with chronic heart disease, diabetes and depression, said: "I still rely on family hand outs and additional begged support in order to live."


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 18, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Wasn't sure which thread to post this on but
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-19639952


I saw that article, and I was both sad and angry to read that he has been driven to begging to makes end meet.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 18, 2012)

treelover said:


> Any reports on the Smith meeting with the WPC?


Been looking for the hansard. Seems committees reports can take a bit longer to be published for some unknown reason. Waiting for it to be published here.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 18, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I saw that article, and I was both sad and angry to read that he has been driven to begging to makes end meet.


 
They should set up camp outside the homes of MPs


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I saw that article, and I was both sad and angry to read that he has been driven to begging to makes end meet.


when you've heard a few more stories like that i fear you'll become used to them


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 18, 2012)

A response to Professor Aylward's statement to Black Triangle and DPAC
outside the IFDM2012 conference, on 11th September 2012.
An excellent paper posted to BTs website. Sat down with a cuppa to read this and was almost applauding at the end

Page three has a good take on Atos involvement. 



> Atos, too, endorse concept of ‘secondary gains’ when assessing illness
> This idea of the 'sick role' is mirrored in an Atos publication of 2004. [6] If any doubt remains about the way in which Atos regards those who are subjected to its formulaic tick box assessment process then this publication will dispel them. A side panel of the document authored by Dr Christopher Bass is entitled familiarly “Symptoms that defy explanation” and includes a helpful list of conditions that fall within this category, including
> Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
> Fibromyalgia
> ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> when you've heard a few more stories like that i fear you'll become used to them


I've been hearing and seeing stories like these for four years now Pickman's. I will never get used to them.

ETA.. I REFUSE to get used to them.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 19, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> A response to Professor Aylward's statement to Black Triangle and DPAC
> 
> outside the IFDM2012 conference, on 11th September 2012.
> An excellent paper posted to BTs website. Sat down with a cuppa to read this and was almost applauding at the end
> ...


 
My friend (who's 50) has just had to take two months off work for RSI.  She's never ever been unemployed and in her whole working life has only taken a week off sick.  She was told to stay off work by her GP and her osteopath ordered her not to go back to work as she'd only exacerbate problems.  It cost her a fortune in xrays, medication, osteopaths etc. (She's Irish). 

However, if she had gone back to work, she risked further damage and being out of work longer. 

Just a little example of how forcing someone back to work before they're ready can fuck you up in the longer term.  (I realise this is probably not a good example, but...) ignore me


----------



## audiotech (Sep 19, 2012)

How's this for "choice". Council Benefit changes being proposed and consulted where I am. Two options:

Band A. For a single person on JSA - 30% cut - monthly amount of £16.29 to find.
Band A. For a single person on JSA - 10% cut - monthly amount of £5.43 to find.

                                              30%       10%
Band C. For a couple on JSA - £28.95 - £9.65

Those with no children and single unemployed people looking at a further battering.


----------



## ash (Sep 19, 2012)

I was looking at advice and guidance vacancies and see that our friends A4E are advertising for a 'capacity and resilience' adviser to Guide and advise Customers who have complex barriers to work
Through their personal journey into sustained employment..

what the !!!!. I've heard some corporate Crap before but that takes the biscuit.


----------



## treelover (Sep 19, 2012)

audiotech said:


> How's this for "choice". Council Benefit changes being proposed and consulted where I am. Two options:
> 
> Band A. For a single person on JSA - 30% cut - monthly amount of £16.29 to find.
> Band A. For a single person on JSA - 10% cut - monthly amount of £5.43 to find.
> ...


 

how on earth will someone on 70 pounds a week find 16.29 a month extra, it seems its not just MP's who are out of touch with the real world..

btw, what happens if all the bigots vote and for the first option, it's them who tend to reply to such things..


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 19, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> My friend (who's 50) has just had to take two months off work for RSI. She's never ever been unemployed and in her whole working life has only taken a week off sick. She was told to stay off work by her GP and her osteopath ordered her not to go back to work as she'd only exacerbate problems. It cost her a fortune in xrays, medication, osteopaths etc. (She's Irish).
> 
> However, if she had gone back to work, she risked further damage and being out of work longer.
> 
> Just a little example of how forcing someone back to work before they're ready can fuck you up in the longer term. (I realise this is probably not a good example, but...) ignore me


It is a good example - I was forced back to work by my then boss refusing to pay me and still have a lot of problems with fatigue as I was never allowed to recuperate properly.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 19, 2012)

They seem to think being chronically ill is a choice, a deliberate decision to choose that path through life 

I've never met a person yet who says 'Oooh, I love having a relapse'.

Atos fuckwits.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> They seem to think being chronically ill is a choice, a deliberate decision to choose that path through life
> 
> I've never met a person yet who says 'Oooh, I love having a relapse'.
> 
> Atos fuckwits.


 
I seriously think some of the people who moan about people on disabled wonder why they have arms and legs and are not amputees.  They just don't seem to think about illness


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 19, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I seriously think some of the people who moan about people on disabled wonder why they have arms and legs and are not amputees. They just don't seem to think about illness


They absolutely don't. I challenged someone who was described someone they knew with chronic back problems, yet when they were told this person may be subject to DDA/Equality Act provisions they posted 'She's not disabled'. They were gently corrected.

It's not just amputations though - if there's no wheelchair, or guide dog, or hearing aids, then there's no disability. Getting people to accept non-visible conditions as disabilities is a massive perception shift.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> They absolutely don't. I challenged someone who was described someone they knew with chronic back problems, yet when they were told this person may be subject to DDA/Equality Act provisions they posted 'She's not disabled'. They were gently corrected.
> 
> It's not just amputations though - if there's no wheelchair, or guide dog, or hearing aids, then there's no disability. Getting people to accept non-visible conditions as disabilities is a massive perception shift.


 
Your morely likely to be offered a seat if you're on crutches with a broken toe as at least the crutches are visible 

Hm, maybe that's an idea


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 19, 2012)

audiotech said:


> How's this for "choice". Council Benefit changes being proposed and consulted where I am. Two options:
> 
> Band A. For a single person on JSA - 30% cut - monthly amount of £16.29 to find.
> Band A. For a single person on JSA - 10% cut - monthly amount of £5.43 to find.
> ...


Is this Council Tax changes audiotech?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 19, 2012)

treelover said:


> how on earth will someone on 70 pounds a week find 16.29 a month extra, it seems its not just MP's who are out of touch with the real world..
> 
> btw, what happens if all the bigots vote and for the first option, it's them who tend to reply to such things..


 
On top of all the gas/electricity rises.

*prays for a warm winter*


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 19, 2012)

ash said:


> I was looking at advice and guidance vacancies and see that our friends A4E are advertising for a 'capacity and resilience' adviser to Guide and advise Customers who have complex barriers to work
> Through their personal journey into sustained employment..
> 
> what the !!!!. I've heard some corporate Crap before but that takes the biscuit.


Is this the ad?
Advisor (Capacity & Resiliance) Work Programme



> Role Overview
> 
> Our specialist Capacity & Resilience Advisors plan a programme of flexible and tailored support, including appropriate support to build capacity and resilience, pre and post placement. Working on our new Work Programme contract, you will consistently guide and advise customers who have complex barriers to work through their personal journey into sustained employment, acting as a single point of contact for the customer. You will provide a broker specialist support from statutory partners and other relevant organisations whilst all the time empowering, motivating and supporting customers to move into sustainable employment.
> 
> ...



Feck that's some waffle going on there..!!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 19, 2012)

> What You Will Need To Have
> 
> - Ability to demonstrate A4e's DNA: Trusted, Driven, Caring, Passionate, Brave and Friendly.


 


A4E's DNA?


----------



## ash (Sep 19, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Is this the ad?
> Advisor (Capacity & Resiliance) Work Programme
> 
> 
> ...



That's the one


----------



## ash (Sep 19, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> A4E's DNA?



 They're cloning  Emma now very scary !!


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 19, 2012)

Do job ads tend to go of into first person these days?


> I act as a single point of contact to guide and advise our customers who have complex barriers to sustainable work. Through talking and listening to my customer I am able to identify and arrange appropriate support through my knowledge and experience to help break down the barriers.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 19, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Is this the ad?
> Advisor (Capacity & Resiliance) Work Programme
> 
> Feck that's some waffle going on there..!!


 
I've never read such utter bollocks - as if all people need is a bit of encouragement and a couple of courses to make their 'personal journey into work'.

Bag. Of. Shite.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 21, 2012)

Atos bill for humiliating assessments matches benefits for 55,000 disabled Scots 
Daily Record Article.



> THERE was fury yesterday after it emerged the controversial Atos contract to axe benefits would have covered the cost of helping more than 55,000 disabled Scots.
> The French firm are being handed a massive wad of taxpayers’ cash to carry out humiliating assessments on the disabled, which are designed to drive down the benefits bill.
> They will receive an eye-watering £206million from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) for testing if people in receipt of disability living allowance (DLA) should still receive financial help when it is replaced by personal independence payments.
> As the average weekly payment for DLA is £71.84, the money would be enough to pay 55,332 people the benefit for a whole year.
> The figures were revealed by SNP MSP Kevin Stewart at the parliament yesterday.


Add on the bill for all these WPs and the set up of UC... it's a staggering amount going to private companies from the DWP coffers.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 21, 2012)

Exclusive: Local authorities set to cut council tax support to poor by a fifth



> *Our research shows that the overwhelming majority of councils plan to reduce support for low incomes households by an average of 20 per cent* in order to accommodate central government cuts.
> Other key findings include:
> 
> Most councils will not be able to protect disabled people, lone parents with young children, or other vulnerable groups from the impact of the cuts.
> ...


A clusterfuck in the making.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 21, 2012)

Jesus


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 21, 2012)

treelover said:


> Any reports on the Smith meeting with the WPC?


UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 576-iii
HOUSE OF COMMONS
ORAL EVIDENCE
TAKEN BEFORE THE
WORK AND PENSIONS COMMITTEE
UNIVERSAL CREDIT
MONDAY 17 SEPTEMBER 2012
IAIN DUNCAN SMITH AND LORD FREUD

Only found the pdf uncorrected hansard so far. Still, time for a cuppa and a read.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 21, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Exclusive: Local authorities set to cut council tax support to poor by a fifth
> 
> 
> A clusterfuck in the making.


 
Consultations are happening right now, fuck knows what difference can be made though, will any councils find the 10% cut from other places? I doubt it.. hence why I wanted to talk about a non payment campaign and learn about the poll tax campaign and how that got started .. http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/council-tax-benefit-cuts-non-payment-campaign.299249/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 21, 2012)

Reposted on that thread too.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 21, 2012)

Anger over government’s new ‘disability quango
From The Fed.



> The UK’s leading disabled people’s organisation (DPO) has attacked a government decision to set up an “alliance” of DPOs, charities, and private and public sector organisations that will be asked to produce new disability policies for the coalition.
> Plans for the new Disability Action Alliance (DAA) were announced this week as part of the government’s Next Steps document, the latest stage in the production of its long-awaited disability strategy.
> The alliance will be led – with government funding – by the DPO Disability Rights UK (DR UK), which has already come under fierce attack from many disabled activists for backing government plans to close sheltered factories run by Remploy.
> DR UK’s chief executive, Liz Sayce, who will lead the alliance, wrote a report last year for the government on employment support for disabled people.
> ...


----------



## audiotech (Sep 21, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Is this Council Tax changes audiotech?


 
Yes.


----------



## treelover (Sep 21, 2012)

> Disability Rights UK


They were formerly Disability Alliance, very close to NL, former CEO left to become LP Councillor, the Corps like Serco which sponsored one of their conferences, not good...


----------



## treelover (Sep 24, 2012)

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/20...ent-cuts-to-their-benefits-r-i-p-labour-left/
*These 10 People Killed Themselves Because Of Government Cuts To Their Benefits – R.I.P. ~ Labour Left*


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 24, 2012)

DWP Latest updates. 
Three announcements regarding Universal Credit and the support given to claimants.




> *Financial products*
> 
> It was announced that DWP will explore the feasibility of making financial products with budgeting tools available to Universal Credit claimants.
> Accounts that provide people with extra budgeting services could help to make sure people’s essential bills are covered – helping them to build up their credit rating and break the cycle of financial exclusion.
> ...



Supported accomodation being the most welcome exemption. Hostels, Refuges and their tenents must be breathing a small sigh of relief.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 24, 2012)

I don't need a financial product with budgeting tools which by the tone of voice the 'provider' is going to charge me for, my credit rating's perfectly good and I've got budgeting down to a fine art. What I need is weekly and fortnightly payments staggered like they are at the moment so the fuckers can't completely screw me over every time one of their departments decides to randomly suspend a payment for two weeks while they 'approve' a change of circumstances. All this 'it's to help you learn to budget for when you get a job' is total bollocks, because for the vast majority of UC claimants the kind of jobs they're going to be getting are low-paid, retail or call centre or labouring type work which is paid weekly anyway.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 24, 2012)

weepiper said:


> I don't need a financial product with budgeting tools which by the tone of voice the 'provider' is going to charge me for, my credit rating's perfectly good and I've got budgeting down to a fine art. What I need is weekly and fortnightly payments staggered like they are at the moment so the fuckers can't completely screw me over every time one of their departments decides to randomly suspend a payment for two weeks while they 'approve' a change of circumstances. All this 'it's to help you learn to budget for when you get a job' is total bollocks, because for the vast majority of UC claimants the kind of jobs they're going to be getting are low-paid, retail or call centre or labouring type work which is paid weekly anyway.


I know - it's complete bollocks. People on low incomes don't need budgeting tools by and large, they need the reassurance that their payments are secure, that they're not going to be sanctioned for an inordinate length of time for some faux misdemeanor and they certainly don't need to be charged for this bountiful 'advice', which is probably no more than a long recorded message at £1.50 a minute.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 24, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> DWP Latest updates.
> Three announcements regarding Universal Credit and the support given to claimants.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Do you know if this means they will be now be able to include service charges they could with HB, or does it just remove it from the UC benefit cap and allow direct payments?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 24, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Do you know if this means they will be now be able to include service charges they could with HB, or does it just remove it from the UC benefit cap and allow direct payments?


 
Had this link opened earlier to post up from HomelessUK Tom , but, I needed to sleep for a while...

Exempt Supported Accommodation UPDATED


> The new system of delivery and administration of welfare – Universal Credit (UC) – which will come into effect in late 2013, had presented a real challenge for the DWP in terms of how the housing costs of ‘supported exempt accommodation’ would be managed.
> Providing, maintaining and managing accommodation for a vulnerable person costs more than providing general housing. The exempt accommodation rule in housing benefit acknowledges this, and places these costs into housing benefit.
> The DWP consulted on how the exempt accommodation rule and service charges will work under Universal Credit, which will centralise the housing costs system. The Department was inundated with responses from the sector.
> In our response:
> ...


----------



## treelover (Sep 26, 2012)

> This morning, in a last ditch attempt to move things along, I emailed Liam Byrne and Anne McGuire. The time for "tinkering around the edges" had passed. Oh how I would like to tell you more, but I was clearer than I'd ever been.
> 
> Finally, after nearly two years of lobbying, pleading cajoling and VERY hard Paddington bear stares, with just a few days to go before conference, here are the words I've been waiting to hear. Enjoy.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/26/labour-review-sickness-benefits-assessment


 


Big News!(?)

According to Sue Marsh(and it sounds a bit like she is claiming success) the LP are to review the WCA, etc, still think the thing will be here in ten years time..

plus Ch4 on Colin Traynor

nothing on the BBC, thought now Thompson had gone it might change...


----------



## treelover (Sep 26, 2012)

> Labour calls for review of sickness benefits assessment
> Shadow work secretary Liam Byrne defends decision to introduce Work Capability Assessment but admits it is not working
> 
> 
> ...


 
it may actually be significant and the Condems will have to respond,

wonder how the BBC will cover it?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 26, 2012)

Back in the real world.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 26, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Back in the real world.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 27, 2012)

treelover said:


> Big News!(?)
> 
> According to Sue Marsh(and it sounds a bit like she is claiming success) the LP are to review the WCA, etc, still think the thing will be here in ten years time..
> 
> ...


Had the conversation elsewhere that the 'Labourites' would be bouncing about this and taking the credit for convincing Byrne to have a rethink.

Generally the conclusion was come to that Labour were just at it for better poll results knowing that if/when it came to a vote it would be dropkicked out the HoC door by the coalition.

When they have it in their manifesto I'll perhaps consider giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Oh and Sue Marsh does like to pull the "I know something you don't know" nod nod wink wink thing when she can. Last time is was the collusion of charities with Atos/DWP on the new criteria.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 27, 2012)

Part of me thinks it can only be a good thing for labour to review the policy but i just can't see major significant changes happening. 

I think it's possible labour will say that descriptors should be changed to better take account of variable conditions and/or new questions added for mental health conditions but it'd still be designed to remove people from benefits.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 28, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Part of me thinks it can only be a good thing for labour to review the policy but i just can't see major significant changes happening.
> 
> I think it's possible labour will say that descriptors should be changed to better take account of variable conditions and/or new questions added for mental health conditions but it'd still be designed to remove people from benefits.


 
Funny you should say that Tom..

Making rights a reality for disabled people. A discussion paper from the
Shadow Work and Pensions Team pdf.

Just got this so the usual cuppa, read etc.


----------



## treelover (Sep 30, 2012)

> In November 2001 a conference assembled at Woodstock, near Oxford. Its
> subject was ‘Malingering and Illness Deception’. The topic was a familiar one to
> the insurance industry, but it was now becoming a major political issue as New
> Labour committed itself to reducing the 2.6 million who were claiming Incapacity
> ...


 

Malcolm Wicks MP has just died, he was the N/L minister who can be seen as one of the key architects of the welfare reforms which are bringing misery and penury to millions and in some cases death.He was there right at the start attending the seminal welfare conference(see above) which has ultimately led to what we are witnessing today. Milliband has just described him as ''compassionate and humane''.....


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 30, 2012)

Well treelover, I'd like to say that I'm compassionately and humanely sorry to hear of his demise. I can't though and won't. Kinda hope he spins in infinity, the git TBH...


----------



## ash (Sep 30, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Funny you should say that Tom..
> 
> Making rights a reality for disabled people. A discussion paper from the
> Shadow Work and Pensions Team pdf.
> ...




Too little too late IMO


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 30, 2012)

New Civil Penalty for Claimant Error pdf

From 1st Oct 2012.



> What are Civil Penalties?
> Civil penalties: A new Civil Penalty of £50 is being introduced for claimants who incur an overpayment caused by:
> 
> either (a) negligently making incorrect statements and failing to take reasonable steps to correct the error
> ...


----------



## BigTom (Sep 30, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> New Civil Penalty for Claimant Error pdf
> 
> From 1st Oct 2012.


 
I fear this is going to become a substantial revenue stream for the government as advice services get overwhelmed. Does it detail what might be considered "reasonable steps" to correct an error. Presumably the vast majority of people won't know they've made an error until they get fined so that's just bullshit isn't it?


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 30, 2012)

What the suffering fuck now. 



BigTom said:


> I fear this is going to become a substantial revenue stream for the government as advice services get overwhelmed. Does it detail what might be considered "reasonable steps" to correct an error. Presumably the vast majority of people won't know they've made an error until they get fined so that's just bullshit isn't it?


I bet they can still sanction you as well as this fine. 

They're probably planning to use it to show that their 'war on benefits claimants' is creating revenue.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 30, 2012)

I saw somewhere that there was an expected £800m grab back from this. Will try to find the link..

No link as yet, but, hearsay of £180m


----------



## treelover (Oct 1, 2012)

According to Guardian CIF comments, Ed Balls on 5 Live has said he will not be reversing the Condems abolition of DLA/ PIP plans...

Do these people have any relatives who are sick or disabled, i watched Jim Murphy(ex pres NUS) play football against the Journo's and it was obvious they have no awareness of what it is like to be chronically sick, etc even more survive on benefits..

btw, i presume Murphy( who as welfare secretary initiated ESA)goes to see his local team play, can you imagine a similar politician who had (for example) brought in the Means Test in the 1930's being welcomed to the ground, not a chance, , what a de-politicised country we now live in...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 1, 2012)

Axemen ATOS face £40m payday for work making disabled Scots miserable
Daily Record.



> Titled “Atos Risk Management Plan”, the dossier shows a predicted £40,535,679 profit from the £206million Atos contract for Scotland and northern England.
> That would pay the disability living allowance of 10,851 people for a year, based on the average weekly payment of £71.84
> 
> SNP Aberdeen MSP Stewart used freedom of information laws to request details of the deal for Scotland and northern England.
> ...


----------



## weepiper (Oct 2, 2012)

Food banks have become part of the system, part of our so-called welfare state, almost without anyone noticing. They_ planned_ this.



> Household incomes in Wales fell by an average of £80 per month in one year, official figures have shown.
> Office of National Statistics figures from 2009/10 to 2010/11 say average UK weekly income fell from £373 to £359, with average household income in Wales 12% lower than the country as a whole.
> At the same time over the past year, the number given food parcels in Wales has reached a record 23,000.





> "It was gut-wrenching [to ask for help]. Not even a second-class person, something beneath a slug. Food prices keep going up and wages just stay the same."


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19785134


----------



## Greebo (Oct 2, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Food banks have become part of the system, part of our so-called welfare state, almost without anyone noticing. They_ planned_ this.<snip>


Food banks also made the local (London) ITV news last night - with a woman who used one saying how ashamed she was to apply for benefits and what a relief it was to be able to go to a food bank *instead.   *


----------



## weepiper (Oct 2, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Food banks also made the local (London) ITV news last night - with a woman who used one saying how ashamed she was to apply for benefits and what a relief it was to be able to go to a food bank *instead.  *


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 2, 2012)

Cuts Cafe London had it's first public meeting last night.

http://www.dpac.uk.net/2012/09/cuts-cafe-london/


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2012)

> Labour will make cuts to welfare budget if it wins 2015 election, says Liam Byrne
> Shadow work and pensions secretary points to resentment of benefit claimants and says social security must be 'reinvented'
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/oct/02/labour-cuts-welfare-liam-byrne


 
N/L to continue its onslaught on claimants and the welfare state, no mention that they created much of that resentment with their constant 'anti-fraud' campaigns leaks to the tabloids, ministers like Blunketts comments about sick people on IB ''sitting around watching TV all day''

are delegates going to sit there, clap, etc or are they going to speak out...

btw, they really pick odious twats like Byrne(former banker) to be DWP Secretaries, etc, I also smell Purnell in all this...

This now gives carte blanch to the Tories to keep cutting, etc, triangulation still lives..


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Cuts Cafe London had it's first public meeting last night.
> 
> http://www.dpac.uk.net/2012/09/cuts-cafe-london/


 

I fear the 20 October TUC protest will be a relative flop, no one knows about it...


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2012)

> Should claimants be paid vouchers to stop spending on 'vices'?
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...66#TWEET248904
> 'Feckless' claimants
> ...


 
The speed all this is happening at, is breathtaking, and NL endorsing it but on positive health grounds is just sophistry...



> Some, including Mastercard, which sent along a representative to the Demos fringe meeting, are pushing for the combined payment to be loaded on to a pre-paid card. If such a card were to be introduced, explained Matthew Mayo,
> Mastercard's head of business development in the UK and Ireland, claimants could be blocked from using online gambling sites, for example, but not from buying booze at a supermarket. Cards could also be used to incentivise healthy behaviour, he added, and some local authorities are already experimenting with such a policy


 
Ah, the corporates smell money and of course, how democratic is all this?....


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 3, 2012)

Income Management for Liverpool’s Destitute?

Here we go...



> Liverpool City Council’s (LCC) Citizen Support Scheme (CSS) will replace Crisis Loans and Community Care grants on the 1st of April 2013. One of the scheme’s proposals is to abolish cash payments in favour of food vouchers and utility pre-pay cards. Liverpool City Council offer no clear justification for abolishing cash payments other than it being part of, what they describe as, “holistic support”.
> We see it as control over the poor.
> Until April 2013, Crisis Loan and Community Care grant recipients will have the autonomy to purchase the items they require from the stores they choose. The CSS will remove that autonomy and replace it with restricted, and potentially monitored, methods of payment.
> The Australian government has been trialing what could be the eventual conclusion of ‘reforms’ to the UK Social Fund: Income Management for the poor.
> ...


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2012)

Yes, why on earth many people with disabilities eagerly filled in those questionnaires which asked about their spending habits, etc is beyond me..


----------



## weepiper (Oct 3, 2012)

I sold my soul to the Company Store...


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...elfare-video?commentpage=last#end-of-comments

Great John Harris video on welfare benefits, is Byrne changing his approach?

Byrne now saying that scroungers/layabouts are a ''tiny minority''

has Ed had a word with him?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2012)

weepiper said:


> I sold my soul to the Company Store...


 
I wonder if they'll buy my arse?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 3, 2012)

Unbelievable...!!

Get ready for work: what woman who needs constant care was told



> Ruth Anim needs constant one-to-one care, has no concept of danger and attends life skills classes to learn practical things like how to make a sandwich or a cup of tea. So it came as a considerable surprise to her mother, Cecilia, that an official assessment of her daughter's abilities classified her as someone who would be capable of finding work in the near future.
> The report contained a number of factual errors, perhaps most remarkably the assessor's description of the 27-year-old as a "male client", but more disturbing for Anim was the conclusion of the doctor who carried out the test: "I advise that a return to work could be considered within 12 months."


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 3, 2012)

> *Hundreds of contracts signed in 'biggest ever act of NHS privatisation'*
> 
> Labour says private contracts worth a quarter of a billion pounds have been signed this week
> 
> ...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/oct/03/private-contracts-signed-nhs-privatisation?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 4, 2012)

Several charities set to close because of Work Programme contracts:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19822669

Wave goodbye to what help there is for the long-term unemployed. Fuckers.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 4, 2012)

Incapacity Benefits: Deaths of
recipients
9 July 2012

Page 6

Table 3: Claimants leaving ESA between January and November 2011 with a recorded date of death, Great Britain.
WCA Outcome at most recent assessment
Number of claimants leaving ESA with a recorded date of death
Assessment not complete 2,200
Work Related Activity Group 1,300
Support Group 7,100
Total 10,600
Source: The figures are derived from administrative data held by the Department for Work and Pensions and assessment data provided by Atos Healthcare.
Note: All figures have been rounded to the nearest 100.
Data on the number of ESA claimants that have died following a fit for work decision is not available, as the Department does not hold information on a death if the person
has already left benefit.
The Department does not hold information on the number of claimants who died whilst an appeal was in progress.


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 4, 2012)

Whoa, even the Standard is writing articles about poverty in the UK.... http://www.standard.co.uk/business/...0-worse-off-than-three-years-ago-8196688.html


----------



## treelover (Oct 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Several charities set to close because of Work Programme contracts:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19822669
> 
> Wave goodbye to what help there is for the long-term unemployed. Fuckers.


 
EG, these charities agreed to work within a framework of coercion, threats of sanctions for claimants, etc, just as the new Disability Rights UK Work Programme Coalition is doing, have no tears for them..


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 5, 2012)

> *A million working adults face benefits cuts next year*
> 
> Nearly 1.2 million people may be sanctioned if they do not obtain extra work, increase their hours or find a higher paying job


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/oct/04/million-working-adults-benefits-cuts?fb=optOut


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 5, 2012)

> Charities warn of more tragedies unless flaw in transition system is fixed
> *Child starved to death after benefits delay*


 
http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/care/child-starved-to-death-after-benefits-delay/6524052.article


----------



## BigTom (Oct 5, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/care/child-starved-to-death-after-benefits-delay/6524052.article


 
I was just coming to post that, fucking disgusting, just a few days ago some tory scum councillor on twitter was telling a Labour MP that it was wrong and immoral to say people were starving in the UK because of benefit cuts and then this happens.


----------



## treelover (Oct 5, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/oct/04/million-working-adults-benefits-cuts?fb=optOut


 

Looking more and more like the old eastern bloc countries, attacking its own citizens, demonising them, its not sustainable though...


Rutita1 said:


> http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/care/child-starved-to-death-after-benefits-delay/6524052.article


 

Fucking disgrace and an abomination...Is the mainstream media covering this story?, it deserves a thread of its own on urban at least....


----------



## treelover (Oct 5, 2012)

Btw, the concept of part time workers having to look for full time work or assumed to be earning full minimum wage hours came from the banker Freud who has no experience whatsoever of welfare systems...


Btw2, Why do i feel the journalist, Patrick Wintour who has written this piece is relishing it all as he writes...


----------



## treelover (Oct 5, 2012)

Monday 3rd December 2012 11:00 am please show your respect for the DWP/ATOS dead by holding a two minute silence
https://www.facebook.com/groups/420430254683362/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 5, 2012)

treelover said:


> Monday 3rd December 2012 11:00 am please show your respect for the DWP/ATOS dead by holding a two minute silence
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/420430254683362/



I've seen this appear over the past few days. Doesn't see to stem from any of the larger disability activist groups. Begining to think it's just someone who's picked a date out of the air and set a page up..


----------



## treelover (Oct 5, 2012)

still worthwhile if taken up, but would need visible vigils across the country, bad time of year for disabled people though..


----------



## BigTom (Oct 5, 2012)

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk//6524061.article#.UG6rC1_VW1I.twitter

More detail/analysis of the refugee child starving to death, it actually happened in March 2010, before the coalition came into power which I didn't realise. The organisation that existed at the time to help asylum seekers move onto mainstream benefits has had its funding cut and no longer exists, with the coalition muttering about how charities will fill the gap, which clearly was always pretty wide and is only getting wider now.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 5, 2012)

This story on BBC news tonight (ie. nowish)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19844675


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 5, 2012)

> by Dr Éoin Clarke (PhD)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
http://eoin-clarke.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/12-hospitals-in-greater-manchester-at.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 6, 2012)

http://manchestermule.com/article/manchester-hit-by-28m-in-cuts-to-mental-health-care


> *Manchester hit by £28m in cuts to mental health care*
> 
> *Article published: Thursday, October 4th 2012*
> 
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 6, 2012)

> *UK Uncut* ‏@*UKuncut*
> Jeremy Hunt has successfully buried this story: 'Wards in a fifth of NHS Hospitals face the axe' http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9591047/Wards-in-a-fifth-of-NHS-hospitals-face-the-axe.html … via @*christineburns*


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 6, 2012)

> The Tory War on Women: Devon county council have cut funding to rape and domestic violence crisis centres by 100%. http://gu.com/p/2mp9q/tw


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 6, 2012)




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## treelover (Oct 6, 2012)

Is that from today's news?


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## stuff_it (Oct 7, 2012)

More welfare 'reforms' being discussed at the TPC.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-a-20-dole-cut-and-work-in-the-community.html



> Anyone on Jobseeker’s Allowance for more than six months would also be obliged to undertake 30 hours of work in their local community each week under the controversial plans, which will be discussed at this week’s Conservative Party conference.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 7, 2012)

FFS..!!


----------



## Greebo (Oct 7, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> More welfare 'reforms' being discussed at the TPC.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-a-20-dole-cut-and-work-in-the-community.html


Printed on a Sunday in a paper which most of those directly affected by it wouldn't buy, let alone read.  Talk about burying bad news.


----------



## Libertad (Oct 7, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> More welfare 'reforms' being discussed at the TPC.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-a-20-dole-cut-and-work-in-the-community.html
> 
> ...


 
That's gonna cut into their 35 hours actively seeking work a bit.


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 7, 2012)

Libertad said:


> That's gonna cut into their 35 hours actively seeking work a bit.


I guess the only way to be sure would be to heard them all into work camps where someone would keep an eye on them...


----------



## treelover (Oct 7, 2012)

Acoording to Sunday Times, at the TPC delegates from Westminster Council are to ''reveal figures that show benefit fraud is much much higher than stated DWP figures'' and will highlight a ''millionaire benefit fraudster''

This is the holy grail for tories, to be able to show 'massive benefit fraud'' the report seems to mention mostly H/B fraud...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 7, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> More welfare 'reforms' being discussed at the TPC.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-a-20-dole-cut-and-work-in-the-community.html


 
Another Iain Duncan Smith-inspired plan paralleling developments in NSDAP Germany.
We've had _arbeit macht frei_, we're undergoing the stigmatisation of the "useless eaters", and now they want to boost the economy and cut the government payroll by replacing low-skilled employees with free labour.

Nazi cunts, fuck off!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 7, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> More welfare 'reforms' being discussed at the TPC.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-a-20-dole-cut-and-work-in-the-community.html


 
Another Iain Duncan Smith-inspired plan paralleling developments in NSDAP Germany.
We've had _arbeit macht frei_, we're undergoing the stigmatisation of the "useless eaters", and now they want to boost the economy and cut the government payroll by replacing low-skilled employees with free labour.

Nazi cunts, fuck off!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 7, 2012)

So good I said it twice!


----------



## Libertad (Oct 7, 2012)

Liked twice


----------



## Greebo (Oct 7, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> So good I said it twice!


Only liked once by me, I'll make up the difference offline.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 7, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Only liked once by me, I'll make up the difference offline.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 7, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


>


Don't get your hopes up, Panda, or it'll only be the world's 2nd best blow job.

*ahem* sorry about the derail.


----------



## treelover (Oct 7, 2012)

Smith and Gideon to announce ten billion more cuts in benefits, including stopping housing benefit for under twenty fives

war on youth continues...

thing is, all this doesn't seem to help their poll ratings...


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 7, 2012)

Michael Fallon (a tory MP) has just said that under-25's don't deserve the same respect and dignity as older people on radio 5live. From about 22:20 on Stephen Nolan's show - don't listen if your blood pressure is already high. Fucking cunt of a man.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 7, 2012)

fucking Tory scum.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 7, 2012)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Michael Fallon (a tory MP) has just said that under-25's don't deserve the same respect and dignity as older people on radio 5live. From about 22:20 on Stephen Nolan's show - don't listen if your blood pressure is already high. Fucking cunt of a man.


 
Someone should remind the worthless sack of shit that he shouldn't judge everyone by his own lack of use to the human race.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 7, 2012)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Michael Fallon (a tory MP) has just said that under-25's don't deserve the same respect and dignity as older people on radio 5live. From about 22:20 on Stephen Nolan's show - don't listen if your blood pressure is already high. Fucking cunt of a man.


Another one for the dart board.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 7, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Someone should remind the worthless sack of shit that he shouldn't judge everyone by his own lack of use to the human race.


 
Nolan is doing his best, but well, yeah...

First caller is a tory voter, accusing Fallon of lying


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 7, 2012)

"are you really saying, are you really saying, that if you have fallen out with your parents, that you just can't move back in with them for a bit, and save up to get on the housing ladder?" - Michael Fallon (paraphrased from memory)

The whole interview is horrible. If I remember in the morning I'll post the iPlayer link.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 7, 2012)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> "are you really saying, are you really saying, that if you have fallen out with your parents, that you just can't move back in with them for a bit, and save up to get on the housing ladder?" - Michael Fallon (paraphrased from memory)
> 
> The whole interview is horrible. If I remember in the morning I'll post the iPlayer link.


 
 Where do you even start with someone that fucking _clueless_ about the reality of people's lives.


----------



## treelover (Oct 8, 2012)

> Michael Fallon (a tory MP) has just said that under-25's don't deserve the same respect and dignity as older people on radio 5live. From about 22:20 on Stephen Nolan's show - don't listen if your blood pressure is already high. Fucking cunt of a man.


 
If this was any other European country and I don't just mean Southern Europe, there would be hell to play and the youth would come out en masse, how can they tolerate such a war on them?

btw, I don't use FB, perhaps someone could post his insult on young people's pages like UK Uncut...


----------



## treelover (Oct 8, 2012)

Might be worthwhile reading the right wing Policy Exchange thinktank's 2011 document "something for nothing".

They would like to see  unemployed people spend a full working week "job seeking" online with every log-on clocked, every web-page watched, page-view reading-speed timed, and every keystroke monitored.

and much more

1984 really is here

for the plebs...


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 8, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Another one for the dart board.


We're going to need a bigger dartboard.


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 8, 2012)

treelover said:


> Might be worthwhile reading the right wing Policy Exchange thinktank's 2011 document "something for nothing".
> 
> They would like to see unemployed people spend a full working week "job seeking" online with every log-on clocked, every web-page watched, page-view reading-speed timed, and every keystroke monitored.
> 
> ...


...as well as the 30 hours community work...


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 8, 2012)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> "are you really saying, are you really saying, that if you have fallen out with your parents, that you just can't move back in with them for a bit, and save up to get on the housing ladder?" - Michael Fallon (paraphrased from memory)
> 
> The whole interview is horrible. If I remember in the morning I'll post the iPlayer link.


Yes please do!


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 8, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01n6098/Stephen_Nolan_07_10_2012/

from about 15-20 minutes in


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 8, 2012)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01n6098/Stephen_Nolan_07_10_2012/
> 
> from about 15-20 minutes in


17:42 actually.

As someone who had to give up A-levels as I didn't have time to do my four A-levels, walk to college, secure my squat and busk enough to live on I am fucking well incensed. It's taken me until 35 to get back in education and will end up costing me a small fortune.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 8, 2012)

wow. Stephen Nolan did do well imo, this guy is a fucking idiot. Nolan pulling out lots of the obvious reasons why the HB cut for u25s can't work.

Nolan talks about young people in NI he interviewed last week who talked about being suicidal at the thought of moving back with parents. Asking what young people do if parents say no, you can't move back in.

"because you can't get on with your own parents you should suddenly be entitled to someone elses house at their expense?"  

Fallon thinks they are getting more houses built. hahahaha. "help those first time buyers get on the ladder" fuck sake like people can afford deposits etc.
"we can't say everybody is entitled to a council house because they can't get on with their parents"

Now asking about newly married couples with kids. Apparently no-one has a right or entitlement to a home of their own "just because they have got married or are 22". fucking scum. Couldn't answer why someone who is 24 and worked since 16 is less entitled to HB than a 40 year old.

Asked about how people will move to look for work. Apparently no-one is entitled to a house just because they want to look for work. But HB is being cut because apparently people on HB don't want to work and won't work unless forced to by threat of homelessness.
Can he not see the contradiction here? Apparently not.

fucking scum scum scum.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 8, 2012)

I'm not listening to that. No space for any more anger just now


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 8, 2012)

BigTom said:


> wow. Stephen Nolan did do well imo, this guy is a fucking idiot. Nolan pulling out lots of the obvious reasons why the HB cut for u25s can't work.
> 
> "because you can't get on with your own parents you should suddenly be entitled to someone elses house at their expense?"
> 
> ...


Wow, talk about stuck in a time warp - most places people would be over 25 by the time they came to the top of the waiting list for social housing anyway! 

'We're saving them from themselves'  

Then he starts quoting the 'million new jobs' in the private sector - shame about all the job cuts in the public sector that have virtually wiped those out. And nice one for bringing up apprenticeships - I wonder how many of those are mickey mouse apprenticeships that are used as an excuse to pay young people a fraction of a living wage to learn things that in the past needed no training at all.

Never mind that it's actually nearly impossible to get help as a homeless person under most circumstances.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 8, 2012)

Osborne is such a cunt. Here comes the punishing the kids part.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...its-Osborne-vows-slash-10bn-welfare-bill.html

I hate him. And his stupid smug fat rich pals. Also, this part:




			
				cuntychops said:
			
		

> He told BBC Breakfast: 'I speak directly to your viewers who are probably getting ready for work, they are going to work hard all day to provide for their families, they pay taxes, we use those taxes to fund the National Health Service, to support our schools and the police.
> 'I just wonder whether it is right that a third of all that money they raise in taxes goes on welfare and of that some £80 billion goes to support the welfare of those out of work.'




I think that's a lie. I don't think a third of your taxes go on welfare, I think it's considerably less than that.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 8, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Osborne is such a cunt. Here comes the punishing the kids part.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...its-Osborne-vows-slash-10bn-welfare-bill.html
> 
> ...


 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...one-statement-revealing-tax-goes-welfare.html

Yeah it is about 1/3rd - but 2/3rds of that goes to pensioners..


----------



## weepiper (Oct 8, 2012)

BigTom said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...one-statement-revealing-tax-goes-welfare.html
> 
> Yeah it is about 1/3rd - but 2/3rds of that goes to pensioners..


 
ah maybe that's why I had it in my head then, he's banking on people hearing 'welfare' and thinking 'dole scroungers' for the whole figure. So in fact, less of your taxes goes on working-age benefits than goes on education.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 8, 2012)

weepiper said:


> ah maybe that's why I had it in my head then, he's banking on people hearing 'welfare' and thinking 'dole scroungers' for the whole figure. So in fact, less of your taxes goes on working-age benefits than goes on education.


 
yep, far less. JSA is only about 3% of the welfare budget, even when you include HB & CTB paid to unemployed people it's only a small part of the welfare budget. They always push pensions/pension age benefits together with working age benefits to inflate the apparent cost of it.


----------



## treelover (Oct 8, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Osborne is such a cunt. Here comes the punishing the kids part.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...its-Osborne-vows-slash-10bn-welfare-bill.html
> 
> ...


 

They include pensions and of course many of the people he is addressing will get back some of these benefits, etc...


----------



## treelover (Oct 8, 2012)

Btw, demos(now funded by Mastercard) is hawking a poll that claims 90% of people polled agreed that the state should control some element of spending of a claimants benefits, such as stopping it being spent on fags, and holidays!

Is this fucking North Korea? i don't believe them, 90% is a massive amount of agreement and would include urbanites, their family, their friends, their work colleagues, etc for it to reach that figure..


----------



## treelover (Oct 8, 2012)

Btw, this 10bn, its another panic measure, Phillip Hammond couldn't ven give a straight answer when asked by a journalist when they would commence, saying, that it may be 2016 or even 2017..


----------



## BigTom (Oct 8, 2012)

treelover said:


> Btw, demos(now funded by Mastercard) is hawking a poll that claims 90% of people polled agreed that the state should control some element of spending of a claimants benefits, such as stopping it being spent on fags, and holidays!
> 
> Is this fucking North Korea? i don't believe them, 90% is a massive amount of agreement and would include urbanites, their family, their friends, their work colleagues, etc for it to reach that figure..


 
You need to look at the questions themselves, I've got to go out and couldn't quickly find the actual survey but this appears to be the press release:
http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/0/D2E7148EC7ACEA5480257A8B00434C39?OpenDocument 



> Whilst 6 in 10 people (59%) agreed the government should control what people spend universal credit on, the figure rises sharply for certain recipient groups and for the purchase of specific items.
> 
> • An overwhelming 9 out of 10 people (87%) said *at least one group* of welfare recipients should have their benefits controlled. 77% said yes to monitoring people with a substance or gambling addiction and 69% for those with a criminal or anti-social history. These figures rose to 82% and 75% respectively among respondents aged over 65.
> • Over two-thirds of respondents (68%) agreed the government should stop all recipients from spending their benefits on gambling.
> ...


 
(my emphasis)
so basically it's those who think that addicts should have benefits controlled, plus people saying specifically claimants shouldn't be allowed to gamble etc. etc.. to get that 9/10 figure. 

I listened to the rest of the Stephen Nolan show (though I've missed bits and pieces) and I've got to say fair play to Stephen he was really pushing people on why it's different for a <25year old compared ot older people etc. and not letting this go, always reminding people that HB is an in work benefit, that lots of people are putting in hundreds of applications for work etc. 
Was actually decent for a BBC presenter.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 8, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Income Management for Liverpool’s Destitute?
> 
> Here we go...


i can't believe they're actually doing this.
or worse, i *can* believe it.


----------



## treelover (Oct 8, 2012)

BigTom said:


> You need to look at the questions themselves, I've got to go out and couldn't quickly find the actual survey but this appears to be the press release:
> http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/0/D2E7148EC7ACEA5480257A8B00434C39?OpenDocument
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## BigTom (Oct 8, 2012)

Yeah, I might well write to him and let him know he did well.


----------



## Libertad (Oct 8, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Yeah, I might well write to him and let him know he did well.


 
Likewise. I make a point of listening to Nolan most weekends and he consistently upholds the tenets of fair journalism.


----------



## treelover (Oct 8, 2012)

Julian Worricker ex Five Live did an excellent expose of DWP failings a few years ago, it was at the same time as the John Reid/ Home Office ''not fit for purpose'' ferrago yet got no media coverage despite massive cock ups.


----------



## Cupid Stunt (Oct 9, 2012)

I wondered why the Tories were so keen to make squatting illegal!
Their agenda appears to be to (eventually) make all unemployed homeless.
They must know it will cause huge distress, a crime wave and eventually ghettos
all over the country. It will take generations to fix this if it ever gets through.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 9, 2012)

Cupid Stunt said:


> I wondered why the Tories were so keen to make squatting illegal!
> Their agenda appears to be to (eventually) make all unemployed homeless.
> They must know it will cause huge distress, a crime wave and eventually ghettos
> all over the country. It will take generations to fix this if it ever gets through.


 
An increasingly privatised prison system, lobbying from companies that make profits from prisoners, the introduction of commercial work to prisons / prisoners going out on workfare placements to private companies..
criminalise the homeless and make the poor homeless.
The war on drugs acts in the same way in the US. Private prison companies spend millions of dollars lobbying to keep the war on drugs going, it wouldn't surprise me to find G4S or whoever lobbying (or funding think tanks/pressure groups) for benefit cuts and squatting laws.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 10, 2012)

treelover said:


> Btw, demos(now funded by Mastercard) is hawking a poll that claims 90% of people polled agreed that the state should control some element of spending of a claimants benefits, such as stopping it being spent on fags, and holidays!
> 
> Is this fucking North Korea? i don't believe them, 90% is a massive amount of agreement and would include urbanites, their family, their friends, their work colleagues, etc for it to reach that figure..



The same MasterCard that are buttering the DWP's parsnips over a "payment card" for dolies.


----------



## treelover (Oct 10, 2012)

I went to a meeting last night organised by my local MP, who is Ok, there were a number of W/C men there who have lost their jobs or become sick, when they went to the Social to claim, the ones that for any reason weren't eligible for JSA, etc or desperately needed money, were not given any and were directed to soup kitchens and food banks, obviously this is now without debate a key part of a diminished welfare safety net...

just what the Tories always wanted..

btw, lots of the people attending are just the sort of people the left desperately needs, but are not connecting to..


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 10, 2012)

Tory baiting on FB for anyone who fancies it.

https://www.facebook.com/DavidCameron


----------



## BigTom (Oct 11, 2012)

So ATOS have outsourced their contract for PIP assessments in scotland to an NHS owned company 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/oct/10/atos-outsource-medical-assessments?CMP=twt_gu

Daily Record are hailing this as a victory for their campaign, which is fair enough I suppose though I doubt it's really true. To me this looks like it means that all ATOS do for their cut is pass the work on from the government to the public sector.. costing the taxpayer a pretty penny no doubt. 

Also in the news today is another ludicrous ATOS WCA decision - suicidal lorry driver declared fit to work even though doctor says he cannot drive safely
http://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co....d_be__unsafe__for_him_to_return_to_the_roads/


----------



## treelover (Oct 12, 2012)

Considerable cover of benefit issues tonight: Q/T covered the H/B cuts, with the bizarre Melanie Philips alike, Christina Odone making things up, claiming that ''young people under 25 get flats to themselves'', with Simon Hughes correcting her they can only have a basic one room allowance. She also pointed to Spanish youth having to use their cars for sex, etc as they all have to live at home, as if being stuck with parents is a thing to aspire to! Shapps (while having an easy ride on Greengate) continued the strategy of pitting ''strivers''against dolies when he knows full well many H/B claimants inc ''strivers''are in work on very low wages. Caroline Flint flew the flag for Blairism agreeing with welfare reform for the most part.Sadly the audience seemed to support the Tory line, but B,ham has always had a Tory bent...

The on ''This Week'' the fantastic Ava Vidal robustly and incisively defended welfare benefits and H/B, Portillo who is going back to his old right wing ways used the canard of young people trapped or encouraged into a life on benefits, while Alan Johnson unavailable used the term 'stock' as does Lord Freud, but challenging these latest cuts...

what is so clear is the paucity of real thinking on benefits, lack of clarity and yes mis-truths of the rights position on benefits, etc..


----------



## treelover (Oct 12, 2012)

> *BoycottWorkfare* ‏@*boycottworkfare*
> Work Programme architect Alan Cave leaving DWP to join Work Programme provider Serco. http://www.carleyconsult.com/uk/2012/10/10/alan-cave-to-leave-dwp-and-join-serco/ … (via @*jim_carley*)


----------



## oryx (Oct 12, 2012)

Couldn't find a more appropriate thread to post on. Anyone else hear Vanessa Feltz's BBC London phone-in today on disability benefits, assessments and 'fear of the brown envelope'?

It was interesting. I was quite shocked at her interviewing style - I mean I know she's banal, waffly and patronising, but I didn't expect her to be saying to benefit claimants 'SO WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH YOU?!'.

Final caller was the most punchable person I've heard for some time - grade A cnut who thought most people on disability benefits were scroungers.

A shocking lack of understanding by a lot of people that you don't have to be blind or use a wheelchair to be unable to work for health reasons.


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 12, 2012)

Sorry about the Fail link, but there are a few (RW) papers (Fail & Express) running this story that 9 pensioners died every hour from cold last year. Now I assume this is vastly sensationalist and doesn't take into account various other figures and so on but still....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ioners-died-cold-hour-winter-prices-soar.html


----------



## BigTom (Oct 12, 2012)

treelover said:


> Considerable cover of benefit issues tonight: Q/T covered the H/B cuts, with the bizarre Melanie Philips alike, Christina Odone making things up, claiming that ''young people under 25 get flats to themselves'', with Simon Hughes correcting her they can only have a basic one room allowance. She also pointed to Spanish youth having to use their cars for sex, etc as they all have to live at home, as if being stuck with parents is a thing to aspire to! Shapps (while having an easy ride on Greengate) continued the strategy of pitting ''strivers''against dolies when he knows full well many H/B claimants inc ''strivers''are in work on very low wages. Caroline Flint flew the flag for Blairism agreeing with welfare reform for the most part*.Sadly the audience seemed to support the Tory line*, but B,ham has always had a Tory bent...
> 
> The on ''This Week'' the fantastic Ava Vidal robustly and incisively defended welfare benefits and H/B, Portillo who is going back to his old right wing ways used the canard of young people trapped or encouraged into a life on benefits, while Alan Johnson unavailable used the term 'stock' as does Lord Freud, but challenging these latest cuts...
> 
> what is so clear is the paucity of real thinking on benefits, lack of clarity and yes mis-truths of the rights position on benefits, etc..


 
I've just watched this and I really disagree with you - there was one tory cunt, one woman who was a bit muddled and said things about people staying on benefits because it pays better and the woman who asked the question said stuff about immigrants getting houses but both those women also disagreed with the HB cut, and there were 4 other audience members who said we should be taxing the rich, we should sort out unemployment, closing tax loopholes etc. 
Aside from the tory cunt no-one actually agreed with the policy, though no-one expressed a proper defence of welfare or took the housing benefit stuff apart like we do here. 

aside from everything else one thing particularly fucked me off about Grant Shapps that didn't get pulled up on which was that he talked about young people living at home saving up for a house and how unfair it was that someone on benefits would get a house. Then later he claimed young people working couldn't afford to rent or buy.

Now there's no point in comparing someone living at home to save to buy a house (which very few young people will be able to afford anyone, working or not) to someone getting their rent paid. And if anyone is getting paid so little they can't afford to rent they should be able to claim housing benefit (of course he's just helping create the idea that HB is not for people in work). And the wider point about how fucked up it is that someone who is working is paid so little / rent is so expensive that it's not affordable.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 14, 2012)

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/201...lans-food-stamps-scheme-for-disabled-parents/

More vouchers for benefits crap, again using that 120,000 troubled families number which is made up bullshit. I'm not sure how this is going to happen exactly but I do think we'll see a voucher system of some kind rolled out for benefit claimants in the next couple of years. I'd like to think that pulling evidence together from the failed asylum seeker voucher scheme and from failure's in other countries schemes would be enough to put a stop to this idiocy but I think the emotive argument will be enough for enough people to let this happen.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 14, 2012)

The real 'problem' with these families is that they're poor


----------



## BigTom (Oct 14, 2012)

http://notthetreasuryview.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/families-from-hell-who-is-prime.html

and

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/politics/2012/07/there-are-not-120000-troubled-families

also very good articles on where the 120k stat came from and what bullshit it is.


----------



## 8115 (Oct 15, 2012)

Saw this today, really interesting.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/15/graph-cameron-wants-shrink-state

Not sure how accurate it is, (you can famously show anything with a graph) but it looks pretty drastic.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 15, 2012)

I tick 4 out of the required 5 boxes to be put on those benefit cards btw... better not ask the doctor for antidepressants after all, eh?


----------



## BigTom (Oct 15, 2012)

8115 said:


> Saw this today, really interesting.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/15/graph-cameron-wants-shrink-state
> 
> Not sure how accurate it is, (you can famously show anything with a graph) but it looks pretty drastic.


 
I haven't read the article, but what stands out for me with that graph is it doesn't show pre-2008 and you can see that the % of GDP that was state spending rose sharply in the period 2008-9 which is obvious as a recession took out lots of the private sector.
That graph will probably be theorised on the basis of a growing economy as predicted by OBR etc.. which would mean that the state sector would naturally shrink anyway.
Really you want to compare 2006/7 to get a proper idea of how much they want to shrink the state. In reality, with the economy not growing, the state will not shrink as much as the graph shows, but the consequences will be worse.


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2012)

BBC News reporting that the Foodbank, The Tressell Trust has seen demand for its food parcels(three days supply only) double in the last year. Its known that the DWP is now sending people they refuse for a crisis loan to thém and that Smith specifically released funds from the DWP to aid the charity, surprise...


----------



## BigTom (Oct 16, 2012)

Was in the guardian this morning, along with a story about how increasing numbers of children are turning up to school hungry.. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/oct/16/uk-poor-emergency-food-aid?newsfeed=true

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/oct/16/teachers-pupils-hunger-food-survey


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2012)

also reporting that a quarter of school chidren in Sheffield are using them, Condems plans are working...

as people on CIf note, the BBC reports made no mention of benefit cuts beíng a major factor...

btw, the BBC will be reeling from saville, time to put the pressure on...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2012)

> *Tuesday, 16 October 2012*
> 
> *744 donations worth £20 million from private healthcare to the Tory led government.*
> 
> ...


http://eoin-clarke.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/744-donations-worth-20-million-from.html


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2012)

Newsnight just had a very good package on rising food prices, etc and featured some people on benefits without condemning or patronising,

the 'Shanene' effect?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2012)

> *The Green Benches*
> by Dr Éoin Clarke (PhD)
> 
> 
> ...


http://eoin-clarke.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/100-of-doctors-in-charge-of-carving-up.html


----------



## ddraig (Oct 17, 2012)

atos protest Cardiff tomorrow, nearest station Queen st


> http://www.facebook.com/events/482462408440447/
> PROTEST as Atos comes to Cardiff University
> Meet at 9am, Thursday 18th October,
> Cardiff School of Engineering, Newport Road
> ...


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 18, 2012)

They want to bring back EMA....by getting rid of university fee reductions....  

I guess I *am* lucky to be paying £9k a year with a few reductions. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/oct/18/coalition-child-poverty-ema-1


----------



## BigTom (Oct 18, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> They want to bring back EMA....by getting rid of university fee reductions....
> 
> I guess I *am* lucky to be paying £9k a year with a few reductions.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/oct/18/coalition-child-poverty-ema-1


 
 I saw the headline on twitter this morning.. didn't read the article.. 
IF fee waivers aren't being effective in attracting lower income students to university, I wonder whether that might be because many don't go to FE college without EMA, or don't achieve high enough grades, and would take advantage of fee waivers if EMA existed.. 
and of course the existence of the fees puts the people who'd use the waivers off in the first place.


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 18, 2012)

BigTom said:


> I saw the headline on twitter this morning.. didn't read the article..
> IF fee waivers aren't being effective in attracting lower income students to university, I wonder whether that might be because many don't go to FE college without EMA, or don't achieve high enough grades, and would take advantage of fee waivers if EMA existed..
> and of course the existence of the fees puts the people who'd use the waivers off in the first place.


Yes but doing away with fee waivers may well stop people from going on after 19 anyway. Obviously they need to have both.

Certainly I wouldn't have gone on to uni without being on low enough income to get some grant and fee wavier. £40k of debt looks a lot bigger when you're skint, as I said in the computer forum my 18 month old lenovo laptop with the tea spatters and biscuit crumbs is the clunkiest most out of date computer I've seen anyone get out - most people seem to be whipping out MacBook Airs and Ultrabooks (and never mind the going out every night and joining clubs where you have to pay for the activities).

It could well get people more up to university standard but if they never go due to the massive fees (I'm betting that the £9k won't be the last rise either) then what's the point...I guess people with A-levels are more likely to get that job in McDonalds than people without them.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 18, 2012)

Yeah, I just meant that if the reasoning for taking money from fee waivers is because they are not being taken up, and the reason to restore EMA is to get more people to university (which imo is only a part of it, just as important that people are doing vocational courses because of EMA) then it won't work because if you have EMA but no waivers, you'll have the demand for waivers but people won't go to uni because of the fees..  so what then? scrap EMA to bring in waivers?
It only makes sense to have both things (well actually it makes sense to not have fees at all but we've lost that particular argument)


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2012)

http://eoin-clarke.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/124-million-people-in-uk-face-fuel.html


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 18, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Yeah, I just meant that if the reasoning for taking money from fee waivers is because they are not being taken up, and the reason to restore EMA is to get more people to university (which imo is only a part of it, just as important that people are doing vocational courses because of EMA) then it won't work because if you have EMA but no waivers, you'll have the demand for waivers but people won't go to uni because of the fees.. so what then? scrap EMA to bring in waivers?
> 
> It only makes sense to have both things (well actually it makes sense to not have fees at all but we've lost that particular argument)


I'm taking it up! (I hope - the application process is rather unclear and I've still no idea if I end up owing the same but get given some cash or if I get less debt and have to try and get by on fuck all money.)

I have a feeling it's the national scholarship *for skint people* - you only receive this on completion of your first year so if for some reason you fail out you owe the full fees plus loan. 

If no one is taking them up then no need to get rid now is there?

I'd like to see an extension of apprenticeship funding to over 25s that are long term unemployed...they should have it like degrees, you can get funding for one qualification no matter what age you are.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2012)

> *How the DWP Manufactures Falling Unemployment Figures*
> 
> Posted on August 26, 2012 by johnny void | 36 Comments
> 
> ...


http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2012/08/26/how-the-dwp-manufactures-falling-unemployment-figures/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2012)

> *Bungling DWP Publish Atos Corporate Secrets on Government Website!*
> 
> Posted on October 18, 2012 by johnny void | 10 Comments
> 
> ...


http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/201...atos-corporate-secrets-on-government-website/


----------



## treelover (Oct 18, 2012)

wow....

is it being mirrored, saved, etc,

tech know how limited...


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 18, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/201...atos-corporate-secrets-on-government-website/


----------



## BigTom (Oct 18, 2012)

treelover said:


> wow....
> 
> is it being mirrored, saved, etc,
> 
> tech know how limited...


 
Yes, Johnny says in the blog post that it's been downloaded and sent round to claimant groups. Hopefully there is someone with PDF skills who can see if they can get under the other redactions. Can't believe you can just c+p some of it


----------



## treelover (Oct 18, 2012)

Hopefully the Guardian will get it, anyone sent it all to Shiv?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 18, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Yes, Johnny says in the blog post that it's been downloaded and sent round to claimant groups. Hopefully there is someone with PDF skills who can see if they can get under the other redactions. Can't believe you can just c+p some of it



I've saved all the pdf docs to my machine. Going through them slowly to see what's in them and which ones can have the black outs circumvented. 

Tediously interesting stuff though.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 18, 2012)

documents have now disappeared from the parliament.uk library, although the individual urls work for now

can all be downloaded in a zip file from: http://www.consent.me.uk/tweets/258952559316828163/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2012)

> 88% vote in favour of Strike Action at NHS Mid-Yorkshire. as £21,000,000 is wasted on Consultancy, Agency & Redundancy http://eoin-clarke.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/3-reasons-why-i-am-asking-you-to-back.html …


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 19, 2012)

smokedout said:


> documents have now disappeared from the parliament.uk library, although the individual urls work for now
> 
> can all be downloaded in a zip file from: http://www.consent.me.uk/tweets/258952559316828163/


 

This lot?


 DOC4Part5Q5.1OverImpDelPlan.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q5.1OverImpDelPlanATOS.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q5.1SecurityImpDelPlan.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q5.1SecurityImpDelPlanATOS.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q5.1SecurityImplDelPlan.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q7.2ITChanges.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q7.2IT-Changes.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q7.2ITChangesATOS.PDF 
 DOC4Part5ITT--PART1of2.PDF 
 DOC4Part5ITT--PART2of2.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q2.2FinancialRisk.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q2.2FinancialRiskATOS.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q2.2FinRisk.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q3.1ClaimantJourney.pdf 
 DOC4Part5Q3.1ClmtJourney.pdf 
 DOC4Part5Q3.1ClmtJourneyATOS.pdf 
 DOC4Part5Q4.1EstateImplementationPlan.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q7.2ITSystem.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q7.2ITSystems.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q7.2ITSysytem.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q9.1DraftSecPlan.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q9.1DraftSecPlanATOS.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q9.1DraftSecurityPlan.PDF


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 19, 2012)

DOC4Part6Annex1a.pdf 
 DOC4Part6Annex1aATOS.pdf 
 DOC4Part6Annex1b.pdf 
 DOC4Part6Annex1bATOS.pdf 
 DOC4Part6Annex2Sub-contractor.pdf
 DOC4Part6Annex2Sub-contractorsATOS.pdf 
 DOC4Part6Annex-1a.pdf 
 DOC4Part6Annex-1b.pdf 
 DOC4Part6OrganisationChart.PDF 
 DOC4Part6OrganisationChartATOS.PDF 
 DOC4Part6OrgChart.pdf 
 DOC4Part6OverarchingOrgChart.pdf 
 DOC4Part6OverarchingOrgChartATOS.pdf 
 DOC4Part6OverOrganisationChart.PDF 
 DOC4Part12CertofBonaFideTend.pdf 
 DOC4Part12CertofBonaFideTendering.pdf 
 DOC4Part12CertofBonaFideTenderingATOS.pdf 
 DOC4Part15FOI.PDF 
 DOC4Part15FOISch.PDF 
 DOC4Part15FOISchedule.PDF 
 DOC4Part17Offshore.pdf 
 DOC4Part17OffshoreProposal.pdf 
 DOC4Part17-OffshoringProposal.PDF 
 DWP-PenetrationTestguidance.pdf 
 DWPPenTestguidancedoclinktoSecPlan.pdf 
 DWPPenTestguidancedoclinktoSecPlanATOS.pdf 
 FinancialPricingProposal.PDF 
 FinancialpricingProposalATOS.PDF 
 FinancialPricingProposalCAPITA.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q5.1EstateImpDelPlan.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q5.1EstateImpDelPlanATOS.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q5.1ITImpDeliPlan.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q5.1ITImpDelPlan.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q5.1ITImplementationDeliveryPlan.PDF 
 DOC4Part5Q5.1OverarchingImpDelPlan.PDF 
 RiskAssumptionsLog.PDF 
 RiskAssumptionsLogATOS.PDF 
 RiskAssumptionsLogCAPITA.PDF 
 ComplianceQuestions.pdf 
 CompliancequestionsATOS.pdf 
 CompliancequestionsCAPITA.pdf 
 DOC4Part1DecbySupplier.PDF 
 DOC4Part1DeclarationbySupplier.PDF 
 DOC4Part1DeclarationbySupplierATOS.PDF 
 DOC4Part4SupplierinfoForm.pdf 
 DOC4Part4SupplierinformationForm.pdf 
 DOC4Part4SupplierinformationFormATOS.pdf 
 DOC4Part5ITT-PART1of2.PDF 
 DOC4Part5ITT-PART1of2ATOS.PDF 
 DOC4Part5ITT-PART2of2.PDF 
 DOC4Part5ITT-PART2of2ATOS.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 19, 2012)

Consultation bit is interesting.  Claimant and practitioner sit side-by-side to view screen

http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2012-1399/DOC4Part5Q3.1ClmtJourney.pdf


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 19, 2012)

Scenarios leading up to assessment

http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2012-1399/DOC4Part5Q3.1ClaimantJourney.pdf


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 19, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Scenarios leading up to assessment
> 
> http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2012-1399/DOC4Part5Q3.1ClaimantJourney.pdf


I wonder who is paying for all this 'targeted customer service assessment'? 

Anyone care to speculate if ATOS has deliberately done a bad job in order to secure more government funding to 'improve' their service? I wonder if anyone has time to check if there is a pattern to this that has been repeated elsewhere.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 19, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> This lot?
> 
> 
> DOC4Part5Q5.1OverImpDelPlan.PDF
> ...


 
they were re-uploaded overnight, but are now protected pdfs so no longer possible to c&p the redacted text

luckily you can still view it on google cache (click view as html to view redacted text)
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...e5EGJI&sig=AHIEtbT_TM8rPxg3ZXfmGWtqvAha6L9ytw
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...e5EGJI&sig=AHIEtbT_TM8rPxg3ZXfmGWtqvAha6L9ytw


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 19, 2012)

smokedout said:


> luckily you can still view it on google cache (click view as html to view redacted text)
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:1OdLxP8vJZoJ:data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2012-1399/A-Atos_Doc4Part5_TenderForm_Lot3.pdf &hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgGSos6o3aFdgrVLyksvxNUhKcCua7VL-rDlh0wbfYcxFceLb53p1mHg5vn0_28tqvz_nMyDVPGBUrvZ-mPWEZPiFwFwTw4ajK_x0D4ghSQY2Jl5KNNwI33yPkhjNcemOe5EGJI&sig=AHIEtbT_TM8rPxg3ZXfmGWtqvAha6L9ytw


 
Don't know how to do that


----------



## smokedout (Oct 19, 2012)

go to view, in top left of screen then select Plain HTML


----------



## smokedout (Oct 19, 2012)

worth copying btw, things dont stay in google cache that long


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 19, 2012)

Toolbars
Sidebar
Zoom
Page Style
Character Encoding
Full screen


----------



## smokedout (Oct 19, 2012)

go to the link in post above


----------



## smokedout (Oct 19, 2012)

lol, except click view not file (bit pissed)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 19, 2012)

smokedout said:


> lol, except click view not file (bit pissed)


 
What I posted above is what I get with view (my previous post)


----------



## smokedout (Oct 19, 2012)

in that case i give up, your internet is broken


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 19, 2012)

smokedout said:


> in that case i give up, your internet is broken


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 19, 2012)

Found it.  Was looking at the wrong File, Edit, View, History, Bookmarks


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2012)

> By Mark Aitken
> *NHS bosses slammed for attending golf events and exclusive dinners courtesy of benefits axemen Atos*
> 
> 21 Oct 2012 00:01
> NHS Scotland executives have been accepting lavish invitations from Atos, despite the serious concerns surrounding the firm's treatment of the sick and disabled.


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/nhs-bosses-slammed-for-attending-golf-1390770


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 21, 2012)

*20,000 back-to-work assessments on benefits claimants 'substandard', audit finds*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...nefits-claimants-substandard-audit-finds.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2012)

http://prolapsarian.tumblr.com/post/34020269905/the-effects-of-the-benefit-sanctions


> *Prolapsarian*
> 
> 
> →
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2012)

http://welfarenewsservice.co.uk/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 21, 2012)

How can the DWP still have the gall to call claimants 'customers' when we have no say whatsoever in their shit, sanctionable services. Just be honest and call us expensive, unshiftable, useless stock and be fucking done with the bullshit..!!


----------



## BigTom (Oct 21, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> How can the DWP still have the gall to call claimants 'customers' when we have no say whatsoever in their shit, sanctionable services. Just be honest and call us expensive, unshiftable, useless stock and be fucking done with the bullshit..!!



It suggests we have a choice, as a customer we choose to go to the job centre rather than get a job. If they used client it would suggest we had a need for their services


----------



## audiotech (Oct 21, 2012)

duckspeak


----------



## weepiper (Oct 22, 2012)

> Workers are increasingly depending on benefits to pay their rent, the body which represents English housing associations has warned.
> The National Housing Federation says a failure to build homes has led to an 86% rise in UK workers claiming housing benefit from May 2009-May 2012 because of soaring rents and house prices.


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20023113

The government's solution to this poverty explosion? Raise wages? Cap rents? Build more council houses? Nope, build more houses for fucking buy-to-let landlords.


----------



## treelover (Oct 23, 2012)

Apologies if this has already been posted, a very brave guy questions his ATOS assessor about their suitability to undertake the examination...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 23, 2012)

treelover said:


> Apologies if this has already been posted, a very brave guy questions his ATOS assessor about their suitability to undertake the examination...




That's the one I mentioned on this or another thread and then I lost it


----------



## treelover (Oct 23, 2012)

http://purplepersuasion.wordpress.c...periences-of-atos-work-capability-assessment/


Has this been posted? its a fantastic piece and very informative and revealing, apparently the initial assessor was very young, in his mid twenties! ridiculous....


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 23, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://purplepersuasion.wordpress.c...periences-of-atos-work-capability-assessment/
> 
> 
> Has this been posted? its a fantastic piece and very informative and revealing, apparently the initial assessor was very young, in his mid twenties! ridiculous....


 
Not sure if I posted it or not, but found it the same day as that video


----------



## BigTom (Oct 23, 2012)

apologies if this housing federation report has been posted over the weekend .. number of working claimants of benefit has risen 83% over the past 3 years, and rents have risen 37% doubling the bill.. 

Extra 10,000 working claimants per month: 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/oct/22/working-people-housing-benefit-report

Housing benefit bill doubles as rents rise 37%:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ng-benefit-doubles-landlords-demand-more.html

but of course the answer to this is to remove HB for under 25s


----------



## Dr Jon (Oct 23, 2012)

Just spotted "2020: what welfare state?" which concludes:


> Through this complex combination of cuts and welfare an entire layer of infrastructure and support is being taken out the state: your needs have to be more acute to access support, and the safety net of support for when times are toughest is starting to develop some gaping holes. What is more, *we are only two years into at least five of sustained cuts* in public funding. Some projections suggest that austerity is here to stay for *at least a decade*, and in the past few weeks we have heard of a further £10 billion in Welfare reductions. By 2020, will we have any safety net left at all?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2012)

> *Council Tax Benefit change 'to create poll tax Mk II'*
> 
> By Andrew Fagg Politics producer, BBC Radio 4
> 
> ...


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20039452


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 27, 2012)

http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2012/10/27/police-move-on-campaigners-for-criminal-acts-against-dwp/


----------



## Greebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2012/10/27/police-move-on-campaigners-for-criminal-acts-against-dwp/


Thanks for the links.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 27, 2012)

Labour Calls For Urgent Investigation Over ‘Misleading’ Atos Bid Information

Atos suggested in the tender documents that organisations such as GMCDP, Disability Cornwall and ecdp would help it design “disability awareness training” for its staff, and work with it on how to communicate with disabled people claiming PIP.
The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) made it clear in August that the successful PIP assessment bids had “demonstrated strong evidence… of close working with disabled people’s representative groups”, after it awarded two regional contracts to Atos and one to the outsourcing giant Capita.
But GMCDP, Disability Cornwall and ecdp were horrified this week when told by DNS that they had been mentioned in Atos’s tender documents.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 27, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Labour Calls For Urgent Investigation Over ‘Misleading’ Atos Bid Information
> 
> Atos suggested in the tender documents that organisations such as GMCDP, Disability Cornwall and ecdp would help it design “disability awareness training” for its staff, and work with it on how to communicate with disabled people claiming PIP.
> The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) made it clear in August that the successful PIP assessment bids had “demonstrated strong evidence… of close working with disabled people’s representative groups”, after it awarded two regional contracts to Atos and one to the outsourcing giant Capita.
> But GMCDP, Disability Cornwall and ecdp were horrified this week when told by DNS that they had been mentioned in Atos’s tender documents.


 
Oooh, what a surprise, Atos telling porkies!


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 27, 2012)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 27, 2012)

> *Sonia Poulton* ‏@*SoniaPoulton*
> Last night a campaigner I know, based in Wales, had a visit from several local cops. It was to do with her FB posts #*DWP* #*ATOS* Police state?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 27, 2012)

> #*Atos* scandal: Bosses admit over half of people ruled fit to work ended up destitute http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/atos-scandal-benefits-bosses-admit-1344278#.UIwg1NU_qag.twi … #*DWP* #*DPAC*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 27, 2012)

http://tompride.wordpress.com/2012/...or-criminal-posts-on-facebook-china-no-wales/



> In her own words:
> I’ve just had the police forcing their way into my flat near midnight and harrassing me about my “criminal” posts on Facebook about the DWP, accusing me of being “obstructive”. I didn’t know what in f**k’s name they were on about. They kept going on and on at me, it was horrifically stressful, and they only left after I started crying uncontrollably.​


----------



## Libertad (Oct 27, 2012)

*Bolts door, sharpens dog*


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 27, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2012/10/27/police-move-on-campaigners-for-criminal-acts-against-dwp/


 

I honestly think this should have its own thread as this is something entirely different and worthy of everyone's attention.  Seriously, this isn't about ATOS, it's a Freedom of Speech thing innit

Furthermore, to bring it more attention, I think you should leave ATOS/DWP out of subject title so more people read it, otherwise they may just think "not another ATOS post"


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 27, 2012)

Libertad said:


> *Bolts door, sharpens dog*


 
Is a bit worrying innit

*looks out of window*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 27, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I honestly think this should have its own thread as this is something entirely different and worthy of everyone's attention. Seriously, this isn't about ATOS, it's a Freedom of Speech thing innit
> 
> Furthermore, to bring it more attention, I think you should leave ATOS/DWP out of subject title so more people read it, otherwise they may just think "not another ATOS post"


 
Go for it hun!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 27, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Go for it hun!


 
No, I'm now living in fear of a knock at the door


----------



## Greebo (Oct 27, 2012)

*Plans extra defences (on top of the mundane ones) for when well enough to install them*


----------



## Greebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> No, I'm now living in fear of a knock at the door


If you live in fear, *they *(whoever "they" are, probably in this case ATOS and the DWP) win.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 27, 2012)

Greebo said:


> If you live in fear, *they *(whoever "they" are, probably in this case ATOS and the DWP) win.


 
Well I'm not living in fear, but I don't need the hassle and furthermore, I'm not dressed appropriately for visitors


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2012)

> A Freedom of Information document from the DWP has revealed that rather than an average of 32 deaths per week as a result of Welfare Reform that figure has now risen to an average of 73 deaths per week!
> 
> http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/adhoc_analysis/2012/incap_decd_recips_0712.pdf
> 
> ...


 
more here:
http://welfarenewsservice.co.uk/archives/519


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2012)

http://www.michaelmeacher.info/weblog/2012/10/more-horror-stories-from-atos/


----------



## BigTom (Oct 29, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> more here:
> http://welfarenewsservice.co.uk/archives/519



This higher figure includes deaths in the support group, it's not as good a figure as the 32/wk deaths in the wrag group alone for showing the effect of esa reform imo.
They don't track people kicked from esa to jsa though where the strongest effect is likely to be seen.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 29, 2012)




----------



## BigTom (Oct 29, 2012)

weepiper said:


> happy birthday!


 
wrong thread I think


----------



## weepiper (Oct 29, 2012)

BigTom said:


> wrong thread I think


 
oops


----------



## weepiper (Oct 29, 2012)

Here's what I meant to post on this thread

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/child-benefit-david-cameron_b_2022127.html?utm_hp_ref=tw



> The deployment of the word 'fairness' to justify this latest stage in the Tory's all out assault on the poor is the semantic version of a smoke grenade, designed to occlude the purpose behind it - namely increasing the share of society's surplus for the rich at the expense of the poor under cover of an economic recession brought to us courtesy of those very same rich, doing so by pitting the working poor against the unemployed and benefit claimants.


 
This stuff is getting really frightening. It's so effective. No-one with any power to actually do anything about it seems to be that bothered. It feels like we're living in the late thirties, I keep getting this feeling that they're laying ground work with all this divide and rule stuff and something really bad's coming.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 29, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Here's what I meant to post on this thread
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/child-benefit-david-cameron_b_2022127.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
> <snip>It feels like we're living in the late thirties, I keep getting this feeling that they're laying ground work with all this divide and rule stuff and something really bad's coming.


I hate to say it, but I think you're probably right.  OTOH as long as they feel the need to lie and hide what exactly the endgame is, it implies that we've still got a chance of stopping or changing this.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 29, 2012)

"Bedroom tax" epetition:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/33438


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 30, 2012)

Greebo said:


> I hate to say it, but I think you're probably right. OTOH as long as they feel the need to lie and hide what exactly the endgame is, it implies that we've still got a chance of stopping or changing this.





weepiper said:


> Here's what I meant to post on this thread
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/child-benefit-david-cameron_b_2022127.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
> 
> ...


I suspect it's stage one, frighten most people into being civilly obedient in case they end up becoming one of the 'unlucky ones'.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 30, 2012)

Living under the threat of welfare reform
http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/living-under-the-threat-of-welfare-reform/



> “And, if I lose out under Universal Credit, then I may as well just end it all because I am not going to be forced to go cap in hand to family or friends to survive; I couldn’t stand the humiliation after all I’ve been through both personally and physically, and such a situation makes you very vulnerable to abuse. A friend of mine had her DLA taken away and because of her mortgage costs she was left with £12 per week to live on (she daren’t apply for a flat anywhere as most are in horrible blocks that are drug/thief ridden). Her so-called friends offered help willingly at first, then they started bullying her and taking advantage of her. She got her DLA back, but she is still in a terrible psychological state because of the way people treated her. No thank you: I’m not going to go through that!
> 
> “Prior to complete destitution, I intend to demonstrate/beg on my street. I’m going to make large boards with my message on it, and get my carers to wheel me onto the main road to sit all day if necessary, so that the whole community can see what the government are doing to the vulnerable. I refuse to be hidden away like I was many times before when I used to go days or even a week at a time without heat, light or food. And whole winters without heat. No, this time I’m going to make sure that everyone knows. I’ll have nothing left to lose.


 
That's from the middle of the article, which is worth reading through.


----------



## treelover (Oct 31, 2012)

> ONLY 24 HOURS LEFT: Sign #*patspetition* and join our last stand against disability cuts! http://patspetition.blogspot.co.uk/  PLS RT and share!


 
not much time to get the numbers for pats petition, milllion's of people are being affected by these horrific reforms, do most disabled people think it is only ''those others'' who will be hit...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> not much time to get the numbers for pats petition, milllion's of people are being affected by these horrific reforms, do most disabled people think it is only ''those others'' who will be hit...


 
I do wish you'd make an effort not to sound so sanctimonious.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> not much time to get the numbers for pats petition, milllion's of people are being affected by these horrific reforms, do most disabled people think it is only ''those others'' who will be hit...


 
I don't do Twitter, but I reckon people should forward it to lots of paralympians/olympians and ask them to retweet as they have a big following


----------



## treelover (Oct 31, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I do wish you'd make an effort not to sound so sanctimonious.


 
eh, I'm saying that there are thousands of people who are going to be profoundly affected by the cuts, etc who for some reason haven't signed the petition,whats sanctimonious about that?

btw, I have been away from this site for a while due to such pointless comments...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> eh, I'm saying that there are thousands of people who are going to be profoundly affected by the cuts, etc who for some reason haven't signed the petition,whats sanctimonious about that?


 
It's a pity then that "do most disabled people think it is only ''those others'' who will be hit...?" sounds like it's santimoniously having a go at people who don't meet your level of commitment.



> btw, I have been away from this site for a while due to such pointless comments...


 
Pointless to you, maybe. Pointless to the people who might be discouraged by "holier than thou" attitudes, though? Perhaps not.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> not much time to get the numbers for pats petition, milllion's of people are being affected by these horrific reforms, do most disabled people think it is only ''those others'' who will be hit...


 
The petition's not even reached 60,000 yet

Wonder if it'll trend on Twitter at 8.00pm

I'm not comfortable with this Twitterology 

Will it be trendy at 8.00pm?  That's better


----------



## purenarcotic (Oct 31, 2012)

Treelover; maybe people think petitions are pointless, maybe they don't know about the petition, maybe they don't have internet access, maybe they're too sick to be on a computer at the moment, maybe they're just not interested in politics or maybe they're not as educated and clued up as you and don't realise what's to come. 

There's a myriad of reasons why somebody may not have signed a petition, it doesn't mean they don't care.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 31, 2012)

Just read Lord Freud's speech on the Housing Benefit reforms/benefits cap. Fucking raging. Bunch of cunts.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

Interesting



> @*DrBrianMay* Save badgers: 164,525. Save disabled people: 58,724. REALLY?! Please sign #*patspetition* LAST DAY TO SIGN! http://bit.ly/vGbHWV
> 
> *   Expand *


----------



## purenarcotic (Oct 31, 2012)

.


----------



## Libertad (Oct 31, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Just read Lord Freud's speech on the Housing Benefit reforms/benefits cap. Fucking raging. Bunch of cunts.


 
Got a link weeps?


----------



## weepiper (Oct 31, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Got a link weeps?


 
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/newsroom/ministers-speeches/2012/31-10-12.shtml


----------



## Libertad (Oct 31, 2012)

weepiper said:


> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/newsroom/ministers-speeches/2012/31-10-12.shtml


 
Thank you kindly.


----------



## Libertad (Oct 31, 2012)

> This is why, when the Coalition Government came to power 2 years ago, we made a commitment to turn these people’s lives around and to take control of the spiralling welfare costs.


 
Thanks for that.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

Lord it up Fraud


> There has been no mass exodus of people moving out of city centres or of wide-spread homelessness because of our housing reforms.


Give it time cunt..!!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

> *Firstly I want to congratulate private sector landlords for the important role they have played in the economy as a whole.*
> 
> *You have been of huge value during these recent turbulent times. Taking over 590,000 extra tenants on Housing Benefit, an increase of over 50% – for which we are extremely grateful.*
> 
> Over the last ten years Housing Benefit expenditure has almost doubled in cash terms from £12 billion in 2001 to £23 billion in 2011. Without our reforms this will increase to £25 billion by 2014/15.


 
Nothing to do with private sector landlords charging extortionate rents then? 

and nothing to do with lack of council housing either I suppose

(I realise this is an ongoing problem that didn't start when the Condems got in)


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

Edited.. 



> *Firstly I want to join in squealing with glee with private sector landlords for the important role they have played in the economy as a whole.*
> 
> *You have been of huge value during these recent turbulent times. Taking over 590,000 extra tenants on Housing Benefit, an increase of over 50% –  which we are helping you trouser wads and wads of lovely wonga.*


----------



## 8115 (Oct 31, 2012)

I love the way he mentions a housinng benefit cap of £400/ week when in reality for the vast number of people it's a lot lower than that.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Edited..


 
Exactly what I was thinking .. oh private landlords, thank you so much for taking loads of our money, a totally secure source on income in these troubled times. 
what a cock.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 31, 2012)

8115 said:


> I love the way he mentions a housinng benefit cap of £400/ week when in reality for the vast number of people it's a lot lower than that.


 
For single people, once UC comes in, the total benefit cap will be £350/wk, the single room rate round here is something like £55/wk maximum for anyone under 35 iirc.. has he just selected the highest possible cap or something? the 4+ bedroom rate in London?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

BigTom said:


> For single people, once UC comes in, the total benefit cap will be £350/wk, the single room rate round here is something like £55/wk maximum for anyone under 35 iirc.. has he just selected the highest possible cap or something? the 4+ bedroom rate in London?


 
Dunno, probably the rate that will most appeal to Daily Mail readers


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

Just got _Benefits and Work _email

Has this been posted yet?



> *WORK PROGRAMME RIP-OFF*
> Approximately 30,000 employment and support allowance (ESA) claimants in the work-related activity group are being referred to the work programme for ‘personalised and intensive support’ in relation to returning to work
> 
> ESA claimants with a three or six month work capability assessment (WCA) prognosis and who have previously received support from the Pathways to Work scheme are to be forced onto the work programme ‘if it is appropriate to do so’.
> ...


----------



## Greebo (Oct 31, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Just got _Benefits and Work _email
> 
> Has this been posted yet?


WTF?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

Which reminds me, my subscription runs out on Friday.  Renewal only £9.45


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

I've gone through all the DWP payments to A4e since April 2010. The total is £259,445,333.09. This includes the measly £46m since the Work Program started
Anyone with some time to spend and as tediously bored as I get can check them out and add them up HERE.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 31, 2012)

The cynical among us might think that if they weren't paying all that money to A4E they could afford to keep paying people their ESA instead.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

Quick .xls grab

DWP payments to A4E

Apr-10    11,901,295.25
May-10   16,089,254.23
Jun-10    15,803,223.30
Jul-10       2,832,202.48
Aug-10    16,941,996.96
Sep-10    13,690,811.16
Oct-10    10,512,970.65
Nov-10      8,041,447.29
Dec-10    12,701,312.96
Jan-11     12,334,252.95
Feb-11     11,321,953.46
Mar-11     13,738,727.32
             145,909,448.01

Apr-11       8,012,349.38
May-11     11,220,511.00
Jun-11      12,006,211.00
Jul-11       11,073,100.73
Aug-11        8,487,248.00
Sep-11        6,011,692.00
Oct-11        6,612,388.16
Nov-11       4,695,334.00
Dec-11       3,785,070.00
Jan-12       8,515,330.37
Feb-12       5,550,404.00
                85,969,638.64

Mar-12       5,528,598.00
Apr-12       3,655,017.00
May-12      4,752,385.44
Jun-12       4,785,243.00
Jul-12        4,414,395.00
Aug-12       4,430,608.00

                27,566,246.44

All Totals 259,445,333.09

All the other WPs are creaming off just as much.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

weepiper said:


> The cynical among us might think that if they weren't paying all that money to A4E they could afford to keep paying people their ESA instead.


 
This Workfare scam is costing £5bn weeps.. 1/4 of the cuts so far and 1/2 of the next round.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

Disgusting


----------



## BigTom (Oct 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> This Workfare scam is costing £5bn weeps.. 1/4 of the cuts so far and 1/2 of the next round.


 
That's just the work programme, £1bn/year although I think that's going to increase as they are referring more people. It's by far the largest scheme but the others also cost money.. the youth contract is quite a bit of money iirc but I can't be arsed to look it up.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

Just wait till April when many of the Tory brutalities are gonna come into force....

Oh and know that feeling Tom. I start out finding info with great intentions and usually end up under a duvet watching a cartoon to take my mind off the shit I find.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 1, 2012)

> Firstly I want to congratulate private sector landlords for the important role they have played in the economy as a whole.
> 
> You have been of huge value during these recent turbulent times. Taking over 590,000 extra tenants on Housing Benefit, an increase of over 50% – for which we are extremely grateful.


 
sorry this has been brewing in my head overnight and I need to rant and get it out..

what the fuck is this, that we are grateful to private landlords for taking on HB claimants, like this is some sort of charitable endeavour from the landlords, that they are worse off.. they are in it for the money and are getting as much from HB claimants as they would for a non-claimant only it's totally secure. The only way that this makes sense is if you think claimants are scum, they will be far worse tenants in some way than non-claimants. We all know freud is a total fucking dick already but I guess I've never actually listened/read anything much he's said. this sentence makes me want to cause him physical pain. fuck the private landlords ripping us off with sky high rents, I'm not grateful to those motherfuckers, without them the HB bill would be something like 1/3rd lower (based on lower social housing rents), though they'd still be cutting it even so. but can't they see what their policies have done? sold off the social housing now the increased welfare bill is used as a reason to get rid of HB, not to build more social housing. fuckers.
I thought that was going to be more sweary. so I'll just add fuck the cunting dickface Freud.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 1, 2012)

See what I mean? Raging. Bunch of cunts.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 1, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Lord it up Fraud
> 
> Give it time cunt..!!


 
At a *national* level, what he says is reasonably accurate. *Only* nationally, though. Regionally, the south-east and south-west have seen an acceleration in private renters "changing down" that seems to already be hitting the buffers of available cheaper housing stock and having the effect of "pricing out" private renters on HB.
As you say, give it time and the figures will show that Freud has talked shite, but by then he won't give a fuck, and the homeless and poorly housed will aready have been shat on.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2012)

*Investigate 'misleading' Atos bid for disability tests contract, urges Labour*

Four organisations named in tendering document say they object to suggestion they planned to co-operate with firm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/01/atos-disability-tests-contract-labour


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 1, 2012)

Income management for the poor

No doubt this will be rolled out nationwide before long. 


> From April 1st 2013 Liverpool City Council will replace the crisis loans and community care grants with the Citizen Support Scheme (CSS). It is not just a meaningless re-branding exercise; it has serious ramifications for people all over the country.
> The scheme’s key differences to those of the existing arrangements are the abolishment of cash payments. The will be replaced with ‘food vouchers’ and utility ‘pre-pay cards’. The council laughingly describe this as a switch to, ‘holistic care’.
> Currently people in receipt of crisis loans and community care grants are free to spend their money as they see fit. The new (CSS) will replace claimant autonomy with restrictive, and possibly, methods of payment that the state can monitor, how, where, and when it is used.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 1, 2012)

Seriously I think my head is going to pop.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 1, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Seriously I think my head is going to pop.


It's only my constant facepalms that are holding my head together.. I'm shit scared to headdesk incase it goes off big time.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 2, 2012)

> Explanatory Memorandum for the Social Security Advisory Committee
> Universal Credit Regulations 2012
> For the meeting of the Social Security Advisory Committee on Wednesday 13 June 2012


 
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/uc-draft-regs-2012-memorandum.pdf


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 2, 2012)

> View Full-Size Image
> 
> *ESA50 with descriptors*
> *Price per Unit (piece):*  £2.49
> ...


 
http://www.benefitanswers.co.uk/Non...ESA50-with-descriptors/flypage.tpl.html?pop=0

I have a copy of this if anyone needs it and doesn't wants to pay. PM me your email address and I will
send it.


----------



## Cupid Stunt (Nov 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> BBC News reporting that the Foodbank, The Tressell Trust has seen demand for its food parcels(three days supply only) double in the last year. Its known that the DWP is now sending people they refuse for a crisis loan to thém and that Smith specifically released funds from the DWP to aid the charity, surprise...


 
Link below to Docu on that foodbank, the reporter gets scammed by a scumbag taking food from the mouths of the genuine needy, he gets revealed, see him squirm the little shit, though to be fair he obviously has problems but he claimed £500 worth of food and later the bank were turning people away because they had run dry. 
A scary look at the very near future for the underclasses in this (soon to be third world) country.

I have a 20yo son and my heart bleeds for his future, he is already building a bitter hatred for the government (without my help) by the way he is treated by the system already.
Glad i'll be dead soon (heart problems) and won't have to see the shit he will have to go
through, fuck  'em all, cunts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01nqcbm/Britains_Hidden_Hungry/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 3, 2012)

Atos doctors and nurses raise concerns over signing of Official Secrets Act 


> One doctor, who joined the firm last summer, said: “I could not have been more surprised when I was told that everybody had to sign the Official Secrets Act.
> “There’s something very sinister, cloak and dagger, about it.”
> The doctor added that there were already strict rules about disclosure of patient details, saying: “You would have thought we would be covered by our professional codes of conduct.”
> A second doctor said: “There’s no justification for a healthcare practitioner assessing a person suffering from back pain or depression to sign this kind of document.”
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 3, 2012)

Does anyone want to join the Anti-Bedroom tax group on FB?

They have loads of useful info uploaded as files in this group and seem like a helpful group of people.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/antibedroomtax/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 3, 2012)

*Bedroom tax will put people on streets while homes go empty*


http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/201...l-put-people-on-streets-while-homes-go-empty/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 3, 2012)

.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 3, 2012)

.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 3, 2012)

> *https://www.gov.uk/the-warm-home-discount-scheme/overview*
> 
> *Benefits & credits The Warm Home Discount scheme*
> 
> ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 3, 2012)

Iain Duncan Smith to write to distraught teenager who blames Atos for father's death

How fucking dare he..!! Last thing the bairn needs is HIS waffle spin and pathetic platitudes.  


> THE Tory minister in charge of controversial welfare reforms is to write to the Lanarkshire teenager who blames Atos’s fit-for-work tests for his father’s death.
> Heartbroken 13-year-old Kieran McArdle’s letter telling how his sick dad Brian died the day after his disability benefits stopped was hand-delivered by the Record to the Whitehall office of Iain Duncan Smith.
> A Department for Work and Pensions official said: “The Secretary of State will be writing to Kieran McArdle.”
> Atos benefits bullies killed my sick dad, says devastated Kieran, 13
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 3, 2012)

I'm sure heartbroken 13-year-old Kieran McArdle will be much comforted from IDS's kind words


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 3, 2012)

£1 a day slavery. 



> ONE3ONE is an enterprise with a difference. We have 131 locations across England and Wales, utilising a workforce of motivated prisoners who are looking to repay society and build outstanding business relationships with you.
> We deliver many high quality products and services for household names. We help businesses with textiles, printing, laundry, woodwork, furniture making and engineering in all sorts of innovative ways. We have tens of thousands of workers in more than 450 facilities in Her Majesty’s prisons.
> We offer you a social return as well as great business benefits. Our team is motivated to help change lives as well as satisfy your customer needs. Offenders are motivated to work and return to their lives outside better prepared for work. It is a way to give something back to your community.



Way to give vast profits to big business U.S. stylee and competition with China as these Tory gits bullshit on about.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 3, 2012)

Prison industrial complex.


----------



## 8115 (Nov 4, 2012)

IDS being given the easiest ride ever by Andrew Marr at the moment, if you've got the stomach for it.  Don't watch if you get angry easily.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2012)

Here's one of his questions - really:



> Do you think the welfare system has been too soft for too long?"


 
That's privately schooled and oxbridge educated Marr who takes _at least_ £600 000 a year from public money.

_27 grand a month._

Defend the BBC everyone!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 4, 2012)

> *Iain Duncan Smith Launches Attack on Step-Parents – Are A4e Love Cops on the Way?*
> 
> Posted on November 3, 2012 by johnny void | 60 Comments
> 
> ...


 
http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2012/11/03/iain-duncan-smith-launches-attack-on-step-parents/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 4, 2012)

> *Tory Councillor Resigns Over Housing Benefit Threat To Young*
> 
> Posted on June 29, 2012 by johnny void | 35 Comments
> _
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 5, 2012)

> Social Welfare Union · 1,998 like this.
> 5 minutes ago ·
> Follow the Cardiff man on hunger strike against #Atos on twitter @ChristosPalmer. Please note we do not condone these actions due to fear for his health and the possibility of others doing the same and putting their health at risk. However, we do support the reasons behind what he is doing and wish him the very best.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 5, 2012)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...benefits-dwp-disability-rights_n_2076218.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2012)

> *The disturbing truth about disability assessments*
> BMJ   2012; 345 doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/bmj.e5347 (Published 8 August 2012)
> Cite this as: BMJ 2012;345:e5347
> 
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2012)

*Editor's blog: the problem with ideology is how to ignore the evidence*

Housing associations still in the dark about welfare reform just six months before nationwide rollout
http://www.guardian.co.uk/housing-n...using-benefit-evidence-based-policy?fb=optOut


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2012)

> The leaked #*A4e* internal audit report covering Work Programme fraud: *Here:* … #*workfare*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2012)

http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/201...rs-iain-duncan-smith-forced-blind-man-to-beg/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2012)

> *NHS Direct to close most call centres, cutting hundreds of jobs, says union*
> 
> Bosses deny Unison's assertion that they have decided to close 24 of 30 sites used by helpline service


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/09/nhs-direct-call-centres-jobs?fb=optOut



> *Doctors dismayed as public health committee is scrapped*
> 
> Subcommittee set up to tackle obesity, alcohol abuse and other public health problems is axed after only two years


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/08/doctors-dismay-public-health-committee

Great news day


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2012)

It's strange especially as I am told councils are about to regain a responsibility for public health


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2012)

The bedroom Tax and how people are receiving the news:

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tenancies/knock-knock/6524584.article



> *IDS hints at rethink over ‘bedroom tax’*


http://www.insidehousing.co.uk//6519498.article#.UJ1ITC3uHDQ.facebook


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2012)

Really good RSA type animation vid from the Barnet Alliance against cuts and outsourcing in Barnet:



Barnet Eye blog:

http://www.barneteye.blogspot.co.uk/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2012)

> *DPAC* ‏@*Dis_PPL_Protest*
> #*dpac* The real WCA figures after appeal- 76% entitled to support! http://p.ost.im/p/dSeQfG  #*dpac*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2012)

> *Éoin Clarke* ‏@*DrEoinClarke*
> Wrong, Wrong, Wrong: Minimum Wage job adverts emerge to replace 750 NHS Direct jobs "axed via email" yesterday http://eoin-clarke.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/minimum-wage-job-advert-to-hire.html …


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 10, 2012)

Would you like to use your clinical skills in a unique way?


> NMC Registered Nurses
> £32-£34k Depending upon location plus excellent package.
> 
> The position will involve undertaking medical assessments and producing reports on individual’s fitness to work. It is a highly rewarding role that requires a combination of excellent clinical, communication and IT skills.



Oh and you'll have to sign the Official Secrets Act too.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2012)

> *Social Welfare Union*
> *Campaigners respond to Minister for Disabled on Bedroom Tax*


 
http://socialwelfareunion.org/archives/2859


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 11, 2012)

> *Wednesday, 19 September 2012*
> 
> *UNIVERSAL CREDIT - 83% TAX RATE FOR SOME*
> 
> http://paullewismoney.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/universal-credit-83-tax-rate-for-some.html


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 11, 2012)




----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 11, 2012)

but eh,, how to fuck people up is way more real eh ffs..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 11, 2012)

Urbs are fuckwitted Cunts today.. Say it ain't so


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 11, 2012)

> Sunday 11 November 2012
> *Staff anger as benefit test firm Atos wins Government counselling contract*
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...wins-government-counselling-contract.19389977


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 11, 2012)

> *why the Closure of the Independent Living Fund affects Everyone in the UK*


http://jaynelinney.wordpress.com/20...ndent-living-fund-affects-everyone-in-the-uk/


----------



## BigTom (Nov 11, 2012)

Universal Credit delayed by at least a year as key personell quit .. IT Problems, who'd have thought it?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/benefits-reform-under-threat-after-it-glitch-8303835.html



> Despite assurances from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) that universal credit will be rolled out on time and on budget, its national launch – scheduled for October next year – will now be limited to small regional projects. Sources within the DWP have told The IoS that a realistic national roll-out – regardless of the department's public assurances – is already a year behind schedule amid fears that "technical issues over computer software" could push that back further.


 
So I think this means regional pilots in October 2013 not April, and national rollout sometime 2014..



> The programme's director, Malcolm Whitehouse, and the DWP's head of IT, Steve Dover, last week announced they would be leaving the department. The senior civil servant on the project was described as being "on extended sick leave". Other key personnel have also left.


 
oh dear. might this be because they can see the train wreck coming?

I really hope that this isn't going to just be delays but gets it scrapped, or at least pushes it back beyond 2015, when the change of government might cause more delays or even the scrapping of the system (no doubt Labour support UC in principle at least though).


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 13, 2012)

> *Give Up Work To Attend Workfare Say New DWP Guidelines*
> 
> Posted on November 11, 2012 by johnny void | 52 Comments
> 
> ...


http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2012/11/11/give-up-work-workfare-new-dwp-guidelines/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 13, 2012)

> *ATOS bosses to face parliament probe after campaign reveals controversial fit-for-work tests being carried out*
> 
> 12 Nov 2012 00:01
> 
> A COMMITTEE has been set up to chair the investigation after a raft of harrowing stories were made public about Scots being made to feel bullied and harrassed by the tests.


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/atos-bosses-to-face-parliament-probe-1431304

Doesn't say when. :/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 14, 2012)

Great article here by Liz Crow (apols if it's been posted already) focussing on Paralympic Legacy and Welfare Benefits

Long read though, so get yourself a cup of tea 

http://www.roaring-girl.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Summer-of-2012-full-paper-01.pdf


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 14, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/14/council-cuts-targeted-deprived-areas?CMP=twt_gu

*Council cuts 'targeted towards deprived areas'*

Deprived boroughs have budgets cut by almost 10 times the amount lost by Tory-administered authorities in the rural south
• Interactive map


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 14, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/13/welfare-cut-proposals-ministers-budget

*Welfare cut proposals to go before ministers*

Iain Duncan Smith to lay out options for further cuts to welfare budget ahead of autumn statement by George Osborne


----------



## the button (Nov 15, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-20330788



> An MP had to be escorted to safety by police during a protest at the University of Sussex in which he claims he was "attacked with rocks and missiles".


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 15, 2012)

There is a thread with vids....that MP has been telling fibs!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 15, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Really good RSA type animation vid from the Barnet Alliance against cuts and outsourcing in Barnet:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> A radical plan by Barnet's 'easyCouncil' local authority to outsource most of its functions under the motto of One Barnet is meeting growing resistance from residents, most of whom have never been involved in politics or activism. John Harris meet the bloggers, parents and business owners in suburban north London who are leading what has been called the 'Barnet spring'


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...tsourcing-easycouncil-revolt-video?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2012)

> *Supreme Court paves way for ‘bedroom tax’ appeal*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
http://www.24dash.com/news/housing/2012-11-16-Supreme-Court-paves-way-for-bedroom-tax-appeal


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 18, 2012)

> *Week of Action against workfare – Charities stop exploiting the unemployed!*
> 
> November 15, 2012


 
http://benefitclaimantsfightback.wordpress.com/



> Week of Action Against Workfare!
> Public event · By Boycott Workfare


 
https://www.facebook.com/events/552862001405891/



> Read the callout at http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/blog/call-out-8-dec-refuge-from-the-cuts


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 18, 2012)

> Benefit Cap Is Immoral And Divisive, Says LibDem Sarah Teather


http://welfarenewsservice.co.uk/archives/1977?fb_source=pubv1


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 18, 2012)

> Liverpool housing association plan training/work-for-rent scheme for tenants hit by #*bedroomtax*: http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tenancies/bedroom-tax-offer-for-training-tenants/6523169.article … #*boycottworkfare*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 18, 2012)

> *Universal Jobmatch – The Brutal Farce at the DWP Continues*
> 
> Posted on November 15, 2012 by johnny void | 226 Comments
> 
> ...


 
http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/universal-jobmatch-the-brutal-farce-at-the-dwp-continues/


----------



## BigTom (Nov 18, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/universal-jobmatch-the-brutal-farce-at-the-dwp-continues/


 
The universal jobmatch thing is sounding like a nightmare. From what I understand/remember at the moment it's not mandatory, but it will become so at some point.
Somehow every job is going to be listed here so they can keep track of what people are doing and stop them from lying. Check you've done the applications you've said etc.
Also will make you apply for jobs that match your skill set, and you have to accept a job you've been offered, which could see tradespeople / skilled positions being offered for less than the going rate and people being forced to accept or no benefits.

I don't get how they reckon every job will be on there though, that won't be possible, aside from unadvertised jobs, will stuff like the TUC, jobs.ac.uk or arts job mailing lists get incorporated? Will they accept these things once universal jobmatch is running or will you be required to do a certain amount through their system?
If it's going to be done online they'll be able to track exactly what pages you look at, for how long etc.. it'll become harder to game the system (though not impossible by any means and perhaps some friendly hacktivists will write a robot that people can leave to look through the universal jobmatch site and pretend to be a real person.. 
The issue with this is that under universal credit you're going to be required to do 30 hours/wk of jobsearch (iirc, maybe 35). Now that's pretty difficult to do every week.. unless you "volunteer".
You'll be able to volunteer for 16 hours / week and this will count towards your jobsearch requirements. Don't make your 30 hours/week and you'll get sanctioned. Don't volunteer and you'll find it hard to make your 30 hours.
Workfare.. but more voluntary than it is now. Still effectively mandatory, still effectively meaning you'll get sanctioned if you don't volunteer (through the job centre obviously, which may mean going to private companies if a work placement there would be more suitable to helping someone to gain the experience they need to find work). But technically voluntary. 

Anyway, I'd be planning to spend time finding job lists/boards that are not part of universal job match and claiming I'd read through lots of person specs just to check because I wasn't sure from the job title...  

caveat: all this is still kind of up in the air as UC rules are not exactly clear at the moment. The scenario above hasn't been clarified enough to know if it's true.. and hopefuly UC is going to fail due to IT anyway.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 18, 2012)

> *'Demonisation of the poor is taking place ... horrible things will happen'*
> 
> Sarah Teather was a rising star of the Lib Dems – *but then she was sacked as minister for families in September.* Now she wants coalition MPs to see the damage that the new welfare rules will cause to her inner-city seat – and to the country as a whole


 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/17/demonisation-poor?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Hmmmm


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 18, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/atos-bosses-to-face-parliament-probe-1431304
> 
> Doesn't say when. :/


Tomorrow. 19th Nov.
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11821

3.15pm* Public Accounts*
_Subject:_ Contract Management of Medical Services (ATOS)
_Witness(es):_ Neil Coyle, Policy Director, Disability UK and Gillian Guy, Chief Executive, Citizens Advice Bureau; Robert Devereux, Permanent Secretary, Department for Work and Pensions and Dr Bill Gunnyeon CBE, Chief Medical Adviser and Director for Health and Wellbeing, Department for Work and Pensions
_Location:_ The Grimond Room, Portcullis House


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 18, 2012)

*Cut health and education not industrial base, says Sir John Parker*

Anglo American mining group chairman says future of research and infrastructure must be at core of austerity planning


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/18/cut-health-and-education-john-parker


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 18, 2012)

Just met this lady in an online group, she met the shadow health minister last week and talked about ATOS:



> I was lucky to meet with Shadow Minister last week who told a delegation of campaigners (inc myself)  what I personally had suspected for some time, Atos are the governments scapegoats for failure, rather than the Government/DWP taking responsibility for an assessment process which was already flawed, being made worse by someone at the helm who threw caution to the wind, ignored the need for an impact assessment and by any means necessary was going to remove the vital support that people needed and who change regulations like they change their underwear. Atos Dr’s ,Nurses etc are not able to use the skills they trained years for,but are now *Disability Analysts. *The welfare of the Sick and Disabled do not come into it, if you can work one day a week then this is what they will say,this process  *IS NOT A MEDICAL * that many believe it is in fact a programme to work regardless of levels ability to do so,where it is possible. I know many will be outraged by these comments but that is the stark truth,I’m not going to dress it up or give you a sticky plaster for it. It is now costing more in appeals than to implement the test itself, a 9 month wait on DLA alone for appeals.


 
http://blueannoyed.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/atos-saint-or-sinner/

Her and other attendees will be releasing a report asap.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 18, 2012)

http://www.therugbyobserver.co.uk/2012/11/18/news-Fears-for-poorest-as-benefits-axe-falls-53282.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 18, 2012)

> *Southwark *
> *Defend Council Housing *
> Public Meeting
> 
> ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 18, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Just met this lady in an online group, she met the shadow health minister last week and talked about ATOS:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My comment on her post. We've known each other online for well over a year. One of the other women that was at the meeting is such a Labourite that she truly believes Labour are going to ride in like knights in shitey armour and save the day for all sick and disabled to rounds of applause and streets full of tickertape.  I think Gail spent too long in her company on the train journey home. 


> Sad to say Gail I think you’ve been spun a Labour line from Anne McGuire and taken the hook. Atos are more than just DWP patsys in that they wrote the Lima software with the assistant knowledge base from their Disability denying cohorts UNUM and aided by the Mansell/Aylward school of biopsychobabble.
> Atos could have, and still can, withdraw from the WCA/PIP assessments given they know what the public feeling is about them. They won’t though. That £40 million profit from the £110 million a year from the Government, ie US says it all.
> Which other private business working in the UK would stay so quiet in the face of such a public and media clamour over the deaths tallied to these assessments so far. They are part and parcel of this deadly and dangerous farce.
> What I see in your article is another side to the politics of division. A way to spin you into the Labour side while being given no assurance that any real change will happen if Labour regain control. Atos may be the scythe of the Tory Reaper, but, it’s doing a damn fine job of keeping it’s edges keen.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 21, 2012)

The Harrington Report:



> An Independent Review
> of the Work Capability
> Assessment – year three
> Professor Malcolm Harrington
> ...


 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-review-2012.pdf


----------



## weepiper (Nov 22, 2012)

this is an utterly, utterly depressing article on a personal level

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/22/poorest-families-worse-universal-credit

as it just confirms what I already sort of knew with cold hard fact: I can't improve my situation by getting a job (or not the sort of job that I have any hope of getting) and in fact it's probably going to get worse for my family.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 22, 2012)

> Welfare News Service
> Poorest 400,000 Families Worse Off Under Universal Credit, Finds Report


 
http://welfarenewsservice.co.uk/archives/2474#.UK5ekFE4uOQ


----------



## Garek (Nov 23, 2012)

"I think we have a dreadful welfare system"

Poor people not taking enough risks apparently. This despite the fact they "have nothing to lose". 



> "You know, the incapacity benefits, the lone parents, the people who are self-employed for year after year and only earn hundreds of pounds or a few thousand pounds, the people waiting for their work ability assessment then not going to it - all kinds of areas where people are able to have a lifestyle off benefits and actually off conditionality."


----------



## ddraig (Nov 23, 2012)

worra massive ~CUNT!!

excellent dodge of living on benefits for a week too! 


> Lord Freud dismissed the possibility of taking part in a television documentary which filmed him living on benefits for a week, something a number of politicians have done in the past.
> "I have thought of the issue," he said. "The trouble is, it's a stunt when someone like me does it because you do it for a week. That's not the point."
> *He added: "I think you don't have to be the corpse to go to a funeral, which is the implied criticism there." *


----------



## weepiper (Nov 23, 2012)

he's an over-entitled smug bellend. Good analogy too, because the mourners are at the funeral temporarily, by choice, and could leave whenever they want. The corpse didn't get a say in the matter and is stuck there.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 23, 2012)

http://benefitsfight.wordpress.com/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 24, 2012)

> *Another Angry Woman* ‏@*stavvers*
> I might start using the word "reform" in the way the Tories do. e.g. I dropped a glass and it reformed all over the floor.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 24, 2012)

*Camerons Government Has Declared War On Its Own People, It’s Time To Fight Back*

http://welfarenewsservice.co.uk/archives/3359?fb_source=pubv1#.ULEfBFHx9jZ


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 24, 2012)

ddraig said:


> worra massive ~CUNT!!
> 
> excellent dodge of living on benefits for a week too!


 
However, I agree with him here



> "The trouble is, it's a stunt when someone like me does it because you do it for a week.


 
So instead of a stunt, why not make it real and do it for three months, preferably over the winter and see how well you fare when you've the quarterly bills coming in, and let's not forget the water, council tax, tv licence etc.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 24, 2012)

> *refuted.org.uk* ‏@*refuted*
> #*UniversalJobmatch*? DWP say's you can "revoke your consent" http://consent.me.uk/universaljobmatch/revoke/ … do NOT register, sign or consent


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 24, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> However, I agree with him here
> 
> 
> 
> So instead of a stunt, why not make it real and do it for three months, preferably over the winter and see how well you fare when you've the quarterly bills coming in, and let's not forget the water, council tax, tv licence etc.


Not very realistic is it, quarterly bills. He should be given card meters with debts on from the previous tenant and no explanation how they work. Should also only be allowed a non-smart phone and no internet. The phone should be in emergency credit when he gets it, and he should be given a set of shoes that is about to wear out.


----------



## Mapped (Nov 24, 2012)

I came across a good myth-busting document the other day:

_Read between the lines: confronting the myths about the benefits system_

http://www.turn2us.org.uk/pdf/Mythbusting.pdf

It's come out of research into 'benefits stigma' carried out by turn2us

http://www.turn2us.org.uk/about_us/media_centre/news_archive/benefits_stigma.aspx


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 24, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Not very realistic is it, quarterly bills. He should be given card meters with debts on from the previous tenant and no explanation how they work. Should also only be allowed a non-smart phone and no internet. The phone should be in emergency credit when he gets it, and he should be given a set of shoes that is about to wear out.


 
Too cruel.  He might chuck in the towel and then we'll never get to see him survive the full three months


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 24, 2012)

*Saturday, 24 November 2012*

*The most cold hearted letter ever sent by a Tory Minister.*

http://eoin-clarke.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/the-most-cold-hearted-letter-ever-sent.html


----------



## weepiper (Nov 25, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> However, I agree with him here
> 
> 
> 
> So instead of a stunt, why not make it real and do it for three months, preferably over the winter and see how well you fare when you've the quarterly bills coming in, and let's not forget the water, council tax, tv licence etc.


 
give him some kids to look after too, make sure the period he has to do it for covers school uniform time, a school away trip, Christmas and at least one child's birthday too. And manufacture the washing machine breaking in the middle of that period. Then see how many fucking 'risks' he feels like taking, the cunt


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 25, 2012)

weepiper said:


> give him some kids to look after too, make sure the period he has to do it for covers school uniform time, a school away trip, Christmas and at least one child's birthday too. And manufacture the washing machine breaking in the middle of that period. Then see how many fucking 'risks' he feels like taking, the cunt


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 25, 2012)

*The modern face of hardship*

There are now more adults in poverty from working households than from homes where no one works

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-modern-face-of-hardship-8348392.html


----------



## yield (Nov 25, 2012)

Two page summary of changes to Adult Social Services Budgets from June 2012
http://www.adass.org.uk/images/stories/Press12/ADASS_BudgetSurvey2012Summary.pdf



> Councils are reducing their budgets for adult social care by £891m, representing
> a 6.8% reduction against a 7.7% reduction in overall spending by councils.


That would be for one year.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 25, 2012)

yield said:


> Two page summary of changes to Adult Social Services Budgets from June 2012
> http://www.adass.org.uk/images/stories/Press12/ADASS_BudgetSurvey2012Summary.pdf
> 
> 
> That would be for one year.


 
With 2013-14 and 2014-15's promised cuts still to come.


----------



## yield (Nov 25, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> With 2013-14 and 2014-15's promised cuts still to come.


Yes. More than £1.8 billion over the last two years. With bigger deeper cuts due to come.

And that's just adult social services.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 26, 2012)

JRF report published today.

http://www.jrf.org.uk/publications/monitoring-poverty-2012


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 26, 2012)

All of this analysis and information is available. Why then are the government hell bent on ignoring it/spinning it to fit their own narrative?

Rhetorical question.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 26, 2012)

Have had a skim read through that report. It's hard not to feel a bit LLETSA about everything when you see it all laid out like that.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 26, 2012)

Another arrow in their bow, people can now be fined £2k for 'benefit fraud' without it ever seeing a court. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...-face-new-2000-fine-from-today_n_1499117.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 26, 2012)

> The State of welfare
> 
> Radio 4
> 
> ...


 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01p0fpg


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 27, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01p0fpg


 
On now and will be available on listen later


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 27, 2012)

Is it this thread you're after @quimcunx


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 28, 2012)

> *Work Programme: Workfare for sick and disabled people starts December 3rd 2012, with new sanctions regime*


http://consent.me.uk/2012/11/27/workfare/



> #*WorkProgramme* #*Workfare* for sick and disabled people starts Dec 3rd 2012, with new sanctions regime http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/work-programme-memo-082.pdf … …


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 29, 2012)

> *Behind the Scenes*
> 
> *Resistance on the Plinth: the why of it*
> 
> ...


http://www.roaring-girl.co.uk/productions/resistance-on-the-plinth/behind-the-scenes/


----------



## weepiper (Nov 30, 2012)

This is a horrible development 

http://antiworkfare.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/the-return-of-workhouse.html?spref=tw



> The proposal offers tenants hit by the Bedroom Tax a deal to make up the shortfall in their rent by working for LMH doing odd jobs such as “litter picking” on LMH estates. Tenants would also be shunted into training (work) programmes with local charities to secure a roof over their heads. Coffey coats the proposed workhouse scheme with a voluntary varnish, but how voluntary is voluntary when it is conditional? Well, it’s not voluntary, at all, when the threat of eviction forces tenants into the scheme


 
Also this:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/137633/response/336517/attach/html/4/Adviser Guidance FOI Version 1112.pdf.html



> Formal work history is defined as paid work of over 16 hours a week for either
> a continuous period of six months, or two blocks that make up six months
> (e.g. 2 periods of 3 months, or 1 period of 4 months plus another period of 2
> months).
> ...


 
So you could have held down a 2-day a week job for years, possibly at the same time as doing a degree, which surely amply shows ability to time-manage/prioritise/multitask/be responsible and punctual etc etc but these bastards would still tell you you have no experience of work and that you have to go and work for free for 13 weeks 'to gain experience' or lose your benefits. I see it makes mention of covering 'reasonable costs of paid childcare' and children are not mentioned at all in the exemption bits which suggests _not_ being able to find childcare to go on one of these fucking slave labour placements if you're a single parent would get you a sanction.


----------



## BigTom (Dec 1, 2012)

weepiper said:


> This is a horrible development
> 
> http://antiworkfare.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/the-return-of-workhouse.html?spref=tw
> 
> ...


 
If you hear of this happening to anyone and it doesn't get overturned on appeal then I'd suggest that would be worth taking to court, I really doubt that the ECHR would allow that to happen.

But yeah the above in all is totally shit - work for your home directly more or less.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 1, 2012)

BigTom said:


> If you hear of this happening to anyone and it doesn't get overturned on appeal then I'd suggest that would be worth taking to court, I really doubt that the ECHR would allow that to happen.
> 
> But yeah the above in all is totally shit - work for your home directly more or less.


And how do you suggest that a claimant gets it taken that far, given the severe cutbacks on what Legal Aid can help you with?


----------



## BigTom (Dec 1, 2012)

Greebo said:


> And how do you suggest that a claimant gets it taken that far, given the severe cutbacks on what Legal Aid can help you with?


 
Well, until April 2013 that's not a problem, after then I think you'd find a children's charity who'd take up or pay for the case or I think we'd be able to get a solicitor to do it for free/cheap and fundraise to cover costs. For the most part benefit cases are totally screwed by the legal aid cuts but I think a situation like that above would see organisations/people support the case.. "think of the children, oh won't someone think of the children".
We're basically talking about a situation where someone either leaves their kids at home alone or doesn't have food for them. Barnardo's being the dicks they are probably wouldn't care but others would I reckon.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 1, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Well, until April 2013 that's not a problem, after then I think you'd find a children's charity who'd take up or pay for the case or I think we'd be able to get a solicitor to do it for free/cheap and fundraise to cover costs. <snip>
> We're basically talking about a situation where someone either leaves their kids at home alone or doesn't have food for them. Barnardo's being the dicks they are probably wouldn't care but others would I reckon.


Even so, that's nothing to rely on.  Benefit payment is often stopped while you appeal - what does the claimant live on 'til then?  foodbanks don't cover the rent or fuel bills.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 1, 2012)

http://www.tesco.com/foodbank/



> @*boycottworkfare* I guess the plan is that people will buy food from Tesco to give to food banks for people who work at Tesco


 


> @*boycottworkfare* Tesco also has plenty of free labour; maybe if they paid people wages there wouldn't be as much a need for food banks.


 
Are tescos still involved in Workfare?

*goes to check



> Tesco are still involved in the scheme


 
http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?page_id=16

Maximising profit at every level... Every little helps.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 2, 2012)

Depressing info about Housing Associations milking their tenants with regard the work programme, scroll down on this blog:

http://antiworkfare.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/the-return-of-workhouse.html


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 2, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Depressing info about Housing Associations milking their tenants with regard the work programme, scroll down on this blog:
> 
> http://antiworkfare.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/the-return-of-workhouse.html


Suffering fuck.


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 2, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.tesco.com/foodbank/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you read the food drive bs they aren't even really topping it up by 30% either.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 2, 2012)

> *tomallan* ‏@*tomallan*
> @*boycottworkfare* Front page In today's @*newsundayherald* - the story of #*workfare* for sick/disabled people. #*ESA* #*WRAG* http://bit.ly/VjXC3F


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 2, 2012)

> The National Campaign Against Fees and Cuts · By Michael Chessum
> 
> 
> Wednesday
> ...


https://www.facebook.com/events/381129785305589/


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 2, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> https://www.facebook.com/events/381129785305589/


I seem to remember a bumper sticker on a lorry a while ago: 'Without trucks you have nothing'

That's going to be some serious butthurt for Tescos.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 2, 2012)

> *IMPORTANT: How to Gain Exemption from DWP/Atos ‘Fit for Work’ & WRAG decisions by Applying ESA Regulations 29 and 35 NEW CAMPAIGN BY BLACK TRIANGLE & DPAC*


 
http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/20...9-and-35-new-campaign-by-black-triangle-dpac/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 3, 2012)

> *Universal Jobmatch: Do NOT sign any form like this.*
> 
> *Work Programme forms you do NOT need to sign:*


 

http://www.donotsign.com/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 3, 2012)

Amongst the many things I did not know:



> 28.
> Please Note: The Work Programme is European Social Fund (ESF) funded and you must display the ESF logo on all your participant facing materials (DWP Provider Guidance Chapter 11 - ESF Requirements (England Only)).


 
Mandation guidance:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-3a-22-october-2012.pdf


----------



## ddraig (Dec 3, 2012)

and 

just witnessed some very brave DPAC protestors doing another roadblock protest in Cardiff and also some being intimidated by police

more when i upload the pics


----------



## ddraig (Dec 3, 2012)

e2a - bit of a mess, will tidy up!



this cop had no numbers and said he didn't need to display them, think he was also in plain clothes giving a running commentary before his gang turned up and he donned a dodgy looking heddlu hi vis

this top cop was a bit nasty and like jock off porridge


----------



## ddraig (Dec 3, 2012)

more


----------



## ddraig (Dec 3, 2012)

was on way home and came across the very brave and amazing DPAC protestors blocking the road again in Cardiff that is on the corner of queen st, working st and duke st opposite the castle.
they were supported by other campaigners including the Cor Cochion, Red Choir who sing at protests.

only one carriageway blocked this time unlike both the last time, traffic obviously built up as it was about 6.
lots of people gathered and crossing the road wanting to know what it is about and of the 5 or 6 lots of people i explained it to, some knew, some were horrified to hear about Atos and the new scheme today, and all supported.

so much respect for these people, sorted demo with hi vis and legal observer(s), leaflets and people around to explain. also the usual start off softly and then ratchet up the intimidation from the police which they didn't take and carried on singing from the hymn sheets.
i think but not 100% that one of the protestors was the woman who got a heavy visit by the police near midnight about her posts on facebook. when a copper was recognised they denied being heavy handed and said that they'd knocked the door.

threats to remove them as they were now 'acting illegally' and after someone said 'pictures of you dragging disabled people across the road will look good won't they?' they reply 'we're not going to drag them and don't blackmail me with someone's disability' or similar


----------



## ddraig (Dec 3, 2012)

oh and jock lied about an ambulance needing to get through after he'd tried 'i sympathise with your cause' and 'you've made yer point now go over there and do it instead'


----------



## ddraig (Dec 3, 2012)

another pic from tonight, not mine




			
				[SIZE=14px said:
			
		

> Kat Burdon-Manley
> ‏@*KatherynBurdonM*
> *Dpac* out in force in *cardiff* during candle light vigil to remember dead, resulting from Atos testing system. pic.twitter.com/Iosu6ueI


----------



## weepiper (Dec 3, 2012)

PCS statement on Universal Jobmatch

http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/department...ws.cfm/id/D34395B0-26B7-4E67-81B32F80CFEBB3E8

I've had a look at the site, it's bloody useless for me as all jobs are simply described as either 'full time (over 30 hours) or part time (under 30 hours)'. Under 30 hours might be 4 or 5 hours a week. No description of exactly what shifts they want filling. I can't apply for a job on those terms because I have very specific commitments i.e. 3 small kids  and it is pointless me applying for a job to find it's not hours that I can do.


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 3, 2012)

weepiper said:


> PCS statement on Universal Jobmatch
> 
> http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/department...ws.cfm/id/D34395B0-26B7-4E67-81B32F80CFEBB3E8
> 
> I've had a look at the site, it's bloody useless for me as all jobs are simply described as either 'full time (over 30 hours) or part time (under 30 hours)'. Under 30 hours might be 4 or 5 hours a week. No description of exactly what shifts they want filling. I can't apply for a job on those terms because I have very specific commitments i.e. 3 small kids  and it is pointless me applying for a job to find it's not hours that I can do.


I think you are coming at it the wrong way - you apply for the part time jobs to fit in with your work seekers criteria but you make it clear in the applications what hours you can work. It's just a box ticking exercise.


----------



## weepiper (Dec 3, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> I think you are coming at it the wrong way - you apply for the part time jobs to fit in with your work seekers criteria but you make it clear in the applications what hours you can work. It's just a box ticking exercise.


 
It's not though. If (when?) they do make it mandatory there will be sanctions for not applying for stuff on there. You can tell this by the 'please tell us why you don't want to apply for this job' drop-down boxes. If that's not a 'please sanction me' box I don't know what is. Anyway it's such a fucking waste of everyone's time (ours and the employer's) not to just tell us what the bloody hours are on the job ad!


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 4, 2012)

weepiper said:


> It's not though. If (when?) they do make it mandatory there will be sanctions for not applying for stuff on there. You can tell this by the 'please tell us why you don't want to apply for this job' drop-down boxes. If that's not a 'please sanction me' box I don't know what is. Anyway it's such a fucking waste of everyone's time (ours and the employer's) not to just tell us what the bloody hours are on the job ad!


You just apply for it. It's a waste of time of course but it's a compulsory waste of time, and no more than you would have to do if you didn't have children. Please let some kind hacktivist write a bot for it!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 4, 2012)

> *Arbeitsscheu UK* ‏@*Arbeitsscheu_UK*
> #*CzechRepublic* court abolishes #*workfare* | #*UK* now officially more oppresive than Czech Republic http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/news-brief/3088471-end-forced-labour …


 
http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/news-brief/3088471-end-forced-labour


> Czech Republic :
> *An end to “forced labour”*
> 
> 28 November 2012
> ...


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 4, 2012)

I was told that I have to sign up to the Universal Jobmatch today as it is now mandatory.  If I refuse, am I likely to be sanctioned temporarily and have to appeal to get the money I am owed?  Because I want to refuse, but I can't afford to lose more money (I'm currently on 50% JSA because they incorrectly claimed I've been working ) if that's the outcome of refusing.


----------



## weepiper (Dec 4, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I was told that I have to sign up to the Universal Jobmatch today as it is now mandatory. If I refuse, am I likely to be sanctioned temporarily and have to appeal to get the money I am owed? Because I want to refuse, but I can't afford to lose more money (I'm currently on 50% JSA because they incorrectly claimed I've been working ) if that's the outcome of refusing.


 
It is NOT mandatory, whoever told you that is having you on. Here's the PCS (DWP staff's union) statement again


http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/department...ws.cfm/id/D34395B0-26B7-4E67-81B32F80CFEBB3E8


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 4, 2012)

weepiper said:


> It is NOT mandatory, whoever told you that is having you on. Here's the PCS (DWP staff's union) statement again
> 
> 
> http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/department...ws.cfm/id/D34395B0-26B7-4E67-81B32F80CFEBB3E8


 
Yeah, I know now...thanks to you good people on this thread!

I was told last week by my normal advisor that it's not compulsory.  To be fair, the normal guy is totally sound and doesn't give me any shit at all.  But the replacement fella is a right one.  He made me fill in those "declare your hours worked" forms in today going back until September!  Every one was name, job title, employers address, when paid, then how much you were paid (£0, every fucking week) and all the dates it covered.  Took me about 30 mins just writing out dates and £0s.

Then all casual, he says, "have you got one of these Universal Jobmatch forms?"
"Yep."
"Have you registered?"
"No"
"Well it is mandatory now, so make sure you've registered for your next sign on day and bring your ID in so we can look at your job search."

I just wanted to get out of there after all the forms, but I should have challenged him.

Anyway, after coming home, I came straight on here to check, and see all this, and now know he's talking crap.  BUT, even though he's lying, can he sanction me for it?  I know the DWP say no, but that doesn't mean it won't happen, followed by me having to straighten it out and getting it all backdated in a few weeks...I want to resist it, but I can't afford to have my JSA stopped.


----------



## weepiper (Dec 4, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I want to resist it, but I can't afford to have my JSA stopped.


 
And that's why they have us over a barrel 

have a look here, maybe even print it out to take with you?

http://consent.me.uk/universaljobmatch/


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 4, 2012)

weepiper said:


> And that's why they have us over a barrel
> 
> have a look here, maybe even print it out to take with you?
> 
> http://consent.me.uk/universaljobmatch/


 
I've just been looking at that, thanks.  I've read all the stuff and know I'm in the right, but yeah, they got me (us) where I'm scared to insist on my rights.

I will just say that I have read all the stories about scammers etc using it, and I'm worried about my security.  At least then it doesn't look like I'm a trouble causer.  And yes, I'll be armed with that DWP letter...good idea!  Cheers.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 4, 2012)

An Independent Review
of the Work Capability
Assessment
Professor Malcolm Harrington
November 2010


http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-review-2010.pdf


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 5, 2012)

http://antibedroomtax.webs.com/


----------



## weepiper (Dec 5, 2012)

Just seen this on Twitter. Obviously a number of advisors are really pushing Jobmatch.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 5, 2012)

weepiper said:


> <snip>Just seen this on Twitter. Obviously a number of advisors are really pushing Jobmatch.


Understatement of the year!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 5, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Just seen this on Twitter. Obviously a number of advisors are really pushing Jobmatch.


 

So is it Universal Jobmatch or Universal Job Match?

Shouldn't up loading be one word?

Is on line supposed to be one word?

CV's?

I give up, and I haven't even read two paragraphs yet


----------



## weepiper (Dec 5, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So is it Universal Jobmatch or Universal Job Match?
> 
> Shouldn't up loading be one word?
> 
> ...


 
Aye. How come she's got as far as managing a Jobcentre?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 5, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Aye. How come she's got as far as managing a Jobcentre?


 
Shocking 

Wonder if she'd blame all the mistakes on a Secretary? 

She's signed it *faithfully *instead of *sincerely *


----------



## Greebo (Dec 5, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Aye. How come she's got as far as managing a Jobcentre?


Good question.  I would guess that she only got that far at the Jobcentre because anyone able to earn good money elsewhere in a secretarial role voted with their feet.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 6, 2012)

This could be VERY interesting. ATOS and the DWP will find it somewhat difficult to threaten people with legal action when those people are covered by Parliamentary Privilege:

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/20...ons-now-likely-next-month-michael-meacher-mp/

And on the 'WTF?' front...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...oversial-tests-could-be-positive-8376336.html

Disability Minster Esther McVey says:  ‘Do not be fearful of this. This could be positive for you.'

Rather like an Army officer standing you against a wall and saying 'Yes, I know there are twelve rifles, but at least two are loaded with blanks...'


----------



## krink (Dec 6, 2012)

newcastle anti-cuts bods took over the council chambers last night (i wasn't there so not much more info yet)


----------



## krink (Dec 6, 2012)

someone posted up an account of it on ian bone's blog:



> CHAOS ERUPTS AS KNOWN TROUBLEMAKERS STORM NEWCASTLE COUNCIL CHAMBER
> It wasn’t really a very promising start; a ‘Save Our Libraries’ march from New Bridge Street to the Civic Centre in sub-zero temperatures along frozen pavements. Some not very new chants getting a not very enthsiastic response, perhaps because for some reason they made no mention of the Labour Party which controls Newcastle City and which is obligingly making drastic cuts on behalf of the Tories. Same as it ever was.
> The two bizzies sent along to monitor the situation did off at the earliest opportunity, presumably for a nice bacon sarnie somewhere, and off we went up Northumberland Street; a hundred or so of us, which is a canny sized mob for Newcastle, specially with a good sprinkling of spikies. We got right up to the main entrance at the civic centre where we made a noise and blockaded the mayoral limo which had been left unattended tut tut.
> Next we went to stand outside a big plate glass window to shout rude stuff at some blokes in suits on the other side. It was then that one of us discovered that the main doors were not locked. This is not what we had expected; previous attempts to storm the Civic had resulted in famous but frustrating incidents such as the Revolving Door Kettle and the Known Troublemakers Standoff. In we went!
> ...


edit: some press: http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/nort...ing-at-newcastle-civic-centre-72703-32371095/


----------



## 8115 (Dec 6, 2012)

Not technically welfare cuts and poverty, but cuts anyway.

http://www.channel4.com/news/autumn-statement-27-bn-more-savings-yet-to-be-outlined

Also, if anyone still needed convincing that austerity is a shit idea, the UK triple A credit rating is under threat.

/derail over


----------



## BigTom (Dec 6, 2012)

fuck the triple a rating. these are the clowns who rated Lehmans Brothers and AIG triple A as they were going bust, who rated the CDOs and whatever other things they were trading as AAA. They need to be ignored by everyone.

in other news, early results from the Community Action Programme - a 6 month workfare scheme for the very long term unemployed - have been released and the shock result is........ no difference in employment levels between those sent on CAP and those going to the job centre as normal

http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd5/report_abstracts/rr_abstracts/rra_824.asp




			
				summary document said:
			
		

> This report presents findings from an evaluation of the Department for Work and Pensions’ (DWP’s) Support for the Very Long-Term Unemployed (SVLTUtrailblazer, a six-month1 scheme designed to test potential support strands for claimants who remain on Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) after completing the Work Programme.
> 
> The trailblazer was designed as a Randomised Control Trial and participation in each strand was mandatory. SVLTU consisted of the following two treatment groups and one control group:
> • Community Action Programme (CAP): a six-month work placement complemented by provider-led supported jobsearch. Providers were contracted by DWP to source placements for claimants which delivered a community benefit;
> ...


 
One thing I'm wondering about from that summary, if there's no more job outcomes but CAP and OCM had lower levels of benefit receipt, does that mean that they've had more sanctions? More likely to sign off to escape the hassle? Is there another explanation available here?
I don't know if any of our resident statisticians would have the time to look through the full report and see if there's anything worth noting in there? @ymu @kabbes (I'm not on tapatalk, is this working straight on the boards yet?)


----------



## ymu (Dec 6, 2012)

Not got time to look at it in detail but that would appear to be the most obvious explanation. That or a different voluntary dropout rate, which might occur if there were differences in the sorts of people referred to each type of programme. Young people living at home might be under less pressure than a young person with no family support or a parent with a low-earning partner.

You'd also need to check for artefacts in the data: definition of outcomes, time frames etc.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2012)

> *refuted.org.uk* ‏@*refuted*
> Day One #*WorkFare* for Young People Trailblazer - All contract docs: https://online.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/Common/View%20Notice.aspx?site=1000&lang=en&NoticeId=744579e.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/Common/View%20… …


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 7, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Good question. I would guess that she only got that far at the Jobcentre because anyone able to earn good money elsewhere in a secretarial role voted with their feet.


 
Probably 'cos Government departments are getting rid of a lot of secretaries and replacing them with AO jobs.  That's what they did to my last job, replaced me with an AO


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 7, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> *Saturday, 24 November 2012*
> 
> *The most cold hearted letter ever sent by a Tory Minister.*
> 
> http://eoin-clarke.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/the-most-cold-hearted-letter-ever-sent.html


 
I don't like feeling impotent rage, it's not a useful emotion but christ, that man needs to be peeled and dipped in a salt bath.


----------



## ddraig (Dec 7, 2012)

benefit fraud is fine
even if you have 10!!!!1 kids 
just a long as you lover is loaded and from some bullshit lineage 
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...dant-claimed-107-000-benefits-91466-32354703/


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 7, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I was told that I have to sign up to the Universal Jobmatch today as it is now mandatory. If I refuse, am I likely to be sanctioned temporarily and have to appeal to get the money I am owed? Because I want to refuse, but I can't afford to lose more money (I'm currently on 50% JSA because they incorrectly claimed I've been working ) if that's the outcome of refusing.


 
It's not mandatory but they do want to know why you don't want to sign up and they will "look further into" any possible reasons why you don't want to do it.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 7, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's not mandatory but they do want to know why you don't want to sign up and they will "look further into" any possible reasons why you don't want to do it.


OTOH if you know your stuff, are clear about why you don't want to sign up, and remain polite but firm, there shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## weepiper (Dec 7, 2012)

Jobmatch is a piece of shit

http://www.channel4.com/news/hackers-use-government-jobs-site-to-steal-your-data


----------



## Greebo (Dec 7, 2012)

ddraig said:


> benefit fraud is fine<snip>


While I agree that a prison sentence probably would have done her more harm than good, the same could be said of a lot of other first time nonviolent offenders who were sentenced in spite of it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...tsourcing-easycouncil-revolt-video?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2012)

> *North London SolFed* ‏@*nlsolfed*
> Report from today's pickets in Holloway to start @*boycottworkfare* National Week of Action http://bit.ly/TJOdka  #*combatworkfare*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2012)

*DEBATE AGAINST ATOS, PARLIAMENT JAN 2013:*



> *Pat’s Debate – your support needed more than ever*
> 
> After a year of very hard work and wonderful encouragement from all of our friends and supporters Pat’s Petition  closed with over 62,600 signatures. We then sent an open letter to Liam Byrne.
> *We are delighted to announce that all the effort succeeded *​*and we have a result.*​Liam Byrne has been in touch and the Labour Party are giving us an Opposition Day Debate in the Commons based around Pat’s Petition. This means the debate will take place in the Chamber at the House of Commons with Ministers and front benchers as well as back benchers.


http://carerwatch.com/reform/?p=1246


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2012)

> *George Osborne's Benefit Cut Hurts Single Mothers The Most, Research Finds*




http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...it-cut-single-mothers_n_2260093.html?ncid=GEP


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 8, 2012)

Is Red Ed going to speak out at last?



> Ed Miliband to wage war on George Osborne over benefit cuts


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/08/ed-miliband-george-osborne-welfare


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2012)

Does Labour agree with workfare though? I sent a couple of pithy tweets/questions earlier when the Labour twitter account was creaming itself with this story/others. Didn't get a response, obviously.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 8, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Does Labour agree with workfare though? I sent a couple of pithy tweets/questions earlier when the Labour twitter account was creaming itself with this story/others. Didn't get a response, obviously.


 
Devil and the deep blue sea as always.


----------



## ymu (Dec 9, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Does Labour agree with workfare though? I sent a couple of pithy tweets/questions earlier when the Labour twitter account was creaming itself with this story/others. Didn't get a response, obviously.


Some do, some don't. It's part of the internal battle being waged. Liam Byrne is cunt-in-chief on benefits, but there are some signs that he is being side-lined.

The disability rights campaigners have been very successful and they may be having some influence on how the party are thinking.

Continue challenging them - Labour can't make be allowed to make political capital out of this government fucking up without explicitly acknowledging their own part in introducing and voting for these policies.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 9, 2012)

> Labour can't make be allowed to make political capital out of this government fucking up without explicitly acknowledging their own part in introducing and voting for these policies.


Quite right of course although I am absolutely sick to the back teeth with the way the Con-dems keep using this to avoid focus on what they are currently doing. It is just more of 'well you voted for it/were first to do x, y, z...' This does not facilitate debate and/or clarity at all, it does the opposite.


----------



## ymu (Dec 9, 2012)

Just reminds us how shit they all are. Some of the young 'uns don't realise how much of this is down to Labour. Don't wanna be jumping from frying pan to fire - keeping Labour on the hook is important.


----------



## BigTom (Dec 9, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Does Labour agree with workfare though? I sent a couple of pithy tweets/questions earlier when the Labour twitter account was creaming itself with this story/others. Didn't get a response, obviously.



Although many in labour disagree with workfare, the party not only supports workfare, they introduced it as part of the flexible new deal and when Liam Byrne (cunt in chief lol. Lord Freud and Adonis both vie for this title. Progress is the name of their faction in labour) did a policy announcement earlier this year about youth unemployment it included workfare.
Liam Byrne believes basically the same stuff as the tories. Lord Freud (labour peer) is the coalition's poverty tsar (or something).


----------



## weepiper (Dec 9, 2012)

Good anti-workfare artcile in today's Scottish Sunday Mail

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/revealed-big-businesses-taking-on-jobless-1480979


----------



## yield (Dec 10, 2012)

Further welfare cuts risk ‘serious unrest’
Inside Housing 4th December 2012


> A Human City Institute study being published tomorrow says tenants have lost 10 per cent of their purchasing power since the start of the credit crunch, totalling £3 billion since 2008.
> 
> Current welfare reforms are set to cut a further £2 billion from the incomes of social tenants by 2015, and the think tank warns of ‘serious unrest’ if chancellor George Osborne pushes ahead with a further £10 billion of welfare cuts when he announces his autumn statement tomorrow.
> 
> ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2012)

yield said:


> Further welfare cuts risk ‘serious unrest’
> Inside Housing 4th December 2012


 
I was explaining to my dad yesterday why 2013 is going to be crunch time. His reply, from someone who usually votes Tory and lives in the back of beyond, was illuminating, it was "I can see why people would want to take to the streets. It's bad enough already, any worse and people will have nothing to lose by civil unrest". He's also enough of an old-fashioned Tory to believe that civil unrest is everyone's right if the government isn't working for the electorate.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 10, 2012)

It seems as though those nice, ethical folks at the DWP have been suggesting to claimants' GP's that, as it's not in their contract to provide written evidence for tribunals, that they really, really, _really_ don't have to:

http://www.dpac.uk.net/2012/11/dpac-survey-responses-on-wca-what-harrington-didnt-ask/


Quoted from that link for brevity:


64% of those that said their doctors were told not to provide written support said this was because of the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP)
Some respondents said that the DWP had written to their doctors to tell them not to issue ‘fit notes’ or written support, others that doctors resented such directives and would supply these based on their expertise and knowledge of the individual.


----------



## Cloo (Dec 11, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Just seen this on Twitter. Obviously a number of advisors are really pushing Jobmatch.


 So it's not _mandatory_. But evidently advisors can make it a direction so that you can be sanctioned for not following it.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 11, 2012)

Regarding my previous post, I've just dashed off a quick email to a tame national newspaper journalist of my acquaintance mentioning that the DWP seem to be suborning tribunal witnesses by asking GP's to withhold evidence. I'll let folk know what he says when I get a response.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 12, 2012)

Response from my tame journalist is that he's currently looking for doctors who have been asked/directed by the DWP not to issue supporting medical evidence for claimants' appeals and he'll also be talking to his paper's legal department to see what the current legal position is about the DWP doing this.

Oh, here's some more cheery, uplifting and frankly potentially incriminating information:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/where_a_client_fails_the_wca_doe


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 12, 2012)

BBC are apparently looking for more ATOS stories


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 12, 2012)

Thinking about it, I wonder how many claimants whose doctors refused to supply supporting evidence for appeals were aware that the DWP had approached their doctor and asked/pressured them to refuse to provide medical evidence? Surely a patient/claimant should be made aware of it if that's why their doctor has refused.

It'd be fascinating to compare the number of claimants whose doctors refused with the number of claimants who'd been given the reason why...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 12, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Thinking about it, I wonder how many claimants whose doctors refused to supply supporting evidence for appeals were aware that the DWP had approached their doctor and asked/pressured them to refuse to provide medical evidence? Surely a patient/claimant should be made aware of it if that's why their doctor has refused.
> 
> It'd be fascinating to compare the number of claimants whose doctors refused with the number of claimants who'd been given the reason why...


 
Are you talking about a sick note or some form the GPs have to fill in?  Know my friend's GP filled in a form, but they wouldn't let me look at it


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Are you talking about a sick note or some form the GPs have to fill in? Know my friend's GP filled in a form, but they wouldn't let me look at it


 
If memory serves the DWP is definitely trying to get doctors to refuse to give claimants sick notes, yes. If a GP refuses to issue a sick note then a claimant's benefits stop immediately, leaving them with nothing to live on until their appeal is heard. If their appeal is denied then they'll still get nothing. If their appeal is granted and the tribunal's ruling forces the DWP to restore their full benefits and backdate them to the date of the original decision, then they'll far more likely than not receive a letter ordering them to attend another assessment within weeks of the tribunal ruling against the DWP.

There's another little kicker as well. There's no shortage of claimants who, having been taken off disability benefits and then told they don't qualify for ESA either because they're fit for work. These claimants have to apply for JSA instead, have been to their Jobcentre and applied for JSA only to be told that they don't qualify for JSA because they're unfit for work and so aren't considered a jobseeker either.

For these claimants the DWP has said they're fit for work, the Jobcentre has said they aren't, both organisations have revoked or refused their benefit claims and they're left with absolutely nothing to live on. Still, now that sick and disabled claimants are starting to die off that should please the Treasury's bean counters even more, because the NHS don't have to pay for their long-term care once they're six feet under.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 13, 2012)

Liked for the solidarity, not because I agree with what's going on.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 14, 2012)

> *A return to the days of slums?*


 
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/127094


----------



## BigTom (Dec 14, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/14/worklessness-culture-myth-exposed

Those families with 3 generations that have never worked? Don't exist.



> Together with Andy Furlong at Glasgow University and researchers Johann Roden and Robert Crow, we undertook fieldwork in very deprived neighbourhoods of Glasgow and Middlesbrough. We used every method available to try to locate families with three generations that had never worked, such as spending days surveying clients of job centres, interviewing dozens of organisations that worked in these neighbourhoods, advertising via posters, newsletters and newspaper stories through leafleting and door-knocking and spending months in these neighbourhoods talking to hundreds of residents.
> Despite this, we were unable to find any such families. If they exist, they can only account for a minuscule fraction of workless people. Recent surveys suggest that less than 1% of workless households might have two generations who have never worked. Families with three such generations will therefore be even fewer. As Paul Gregg, one of the foremost experts on inter-generational worklessness in the UK has said: "It just doesn't exist on the scale people seem to think it does."


 
Not that this will stop politicians talking about such families, nor many people believing this to be a problem at all


----------



## existentialist (Dec 15, 2012)

Bakunin said:
			
		

> If memory serves the DWP is definitely trying to get doctors to refuse to give claimants sick notes, yes. If a GP refuses to issue a sick note then a claimant's benefits stop immediately, leaving them with nothing to live on until their appeal is heard. If their appeal is denied then they'll still get nothing. If their appeal is granted and the tribunal's ruling forces the DWP to restore their full benefits and backdate them to the date of the original decision, then they'll far more likely than not receive a letter ordering them to attend another assessment within weeks of the tribunal ruling against the DWP.
> 
> There's another little kicker as well. There's no shortage of claimants who, having been taken off disability benefits and then told they don't qualify for ESA either because they're fit for work. These claimants have to apply for JSA instead, have been to their Jobcentre and applied for JSA only to be told that they don't qualify for JSA because they're unfit for work and so aren't considered a jobseeker either.
> 
> For these claimants the DWP has said they're fit for work, the Jobcentre has said they aren't, both organisations have revoked or refused their benefit claims and they're left with absolutely nothing to live on. Still, now that sick and disabled claimants are starting to die off that should please the Treasury's bean counters even more, because the NHS don't have to pay for their long-term care once they're six feet under.



I have a client to whom exactly this situation has happened. He has been signed off work by a GP because he has had several seizures which the doctor has said would be dangerous in a work environment. The DWP had found him fit for work, but the Jobcentre needs the OK from a GP that he is fit, which they won't give on the basis that a subsequent seizure would potentially lay them open to a malpractice claim. He's just going for his THIRD ATOS assessment.


----------



## ddraig (Dec 15, 2012)

non loaded survey of the silent majority! 
http://www.conservatives.com/Get_involved/benefits_haveyoursay
my bold


> *Have Your Say on Benefits*
> 
> We’re interested in what your think about benefits. That’s why we’re asking you whether or not you support two fundamental principles upon which our welfare policies are founded – many will say they don’t but many will also be in favour. *Your responses will tell us what the majority think*.
> 
> ...


----------



## purenarcotic (Dec 17, 2012)

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/arti...ed-people-to-lose-out-on-benefits-by-2018.htm 

Thought this was relevant to post here.  So PiP will be slowed down and some things will get you points when previously it would have got you none, but huge numbers of people will still miss out and be worse off as a consequence.


----------



## Garek (Dec 19, 2012)

More bollocks. What's worrying, considering this will never come to fruit, is what the watered down version will look like.


----------



## weepiper (Dec 19, 2012)

Shelbrooke is a new one on my 'cunts' list. I'm going to need a bigger bit of paper.


----------



## Firky (Dec 19, 2012)

MP Ian Lavery (Labour, S. Northumberland) produced a genuine suicide note from constituent who had his disability benefit withdrawn and read it out in PMQs.

Tried to find the video on YT but it's not there.

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/nort...nt-s-suicide-on-benefits-cuts-72703-32463397/



> A MAN’S suicide has been blamed on the Government’s harsh disability benefits cuts.
> 
> MP Ian Lavery has told the Prime Minister to stop rushing into cuts for the vulnerable after the Wansbeck MP found a copy of a suicide note in his post.
> 
> ...


----------



## weepiper (Dec 19, 2012)

the vid's here Firky

http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/update/2012-12-19/local-mp-challenges-cameron-disability-benefits/


----------



## Firky (Dec 19, 2012)

weepiper said:


> the vid's here Firky
> 
> http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/update/2012-12-19/local-mp-challenges-cameron-disability-benefits/


 
Brilliant, thank you!


----------



## Firky (Dec 19, 2012)

Cheers, weeps. Sent that video to a few people


----------



## weepiper (Dec 19, 2012)

firky said:


> Cheers, weeps. Sent that video to a few people


 
follow him on twitter, he seems like a good sort. @IanLaveryMP


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 19, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> http://www.communitycare.co.uk/arti...ed-people-to-lose-out-on-benefits-by-2018.htm
> 
> Thought this was relevant to post here. So PiP will be slowed down and some things will get you points when previously it would have got you none, but huge numbers of people will still miss out and be worse off as a consequence.


 
I was reading about the new Motability criteria last night and it looks like walking distance is being reduced from 50m to 20 meters.  I think that also applies to higher rate mobility component so a lot of people on higher rate mobility are going to lose a fair whack


----------



## Firky (Dec 19, 2012)

weepiper said:


> follow him on twitter, he seems like a good sort. @IanLaveryMP


 
He's my MP.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 20, 2012)

> *Welfare benefits uprating bill published: Politics live blog*
> 
> *Live*Rolling coverage of all the day's political developments as they happen


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2012/dec/20/welfare-benefits-uprating-politics-live-blog


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 20, 2012)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9757895/Government-to-spy-on-computers-of-the-jobless.html


----------



## weepiper (Dec 20, 2012)

The fucking Tories and their chums are of course profiting from the massive and deliberately artificially increased demand for foodbanks 

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkin...ts-tory-party-chums-and-food-parcels-for-poor


----------



## BigTom (Dec 20, 2012)

weepiper said:


> The fucking Tories and their chums are of course profiting from the massive and deliberately artificially increased demand for foodbanks
> 
> http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkin...ts-tory-party-chums-and-food-parcels-for-poor


It's the big society in action.

edit: ymu posted a thread about this: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...y-chums-and-food-parcels-for-the-poor.303367/


----------



## Firky (Dec 20, 2012)

firky said:


> MP Ian Lavery (Labour, S. Northumberland) produced a genuine suicide note from constituent who had his disability benefit withdrawn and read it out in PMQs.


 
Front page of the largest paper in the NE today, gwan son!


----------



## ash (Dec 20, 2012)

The little shits are now sneaking in a change in the ESA descriptors starting early next year -great timing I haven't had a chance to link them to the old ones but it does seem to mean that some people who are currently getting into WRAG and support group will no longer be eligible.  I think the approach seems to be - "let's keep tweaking until there's no one left.  If we do it quietly no one will even notice!!"

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/3096/pdfs/uksi_20123096_en.pdf


----------



## Cloo (Dec 20, 2012)

BTW, re: Universal Jobmatch - if the DWP's going to spy on your online job hunt, my dad just pointed out that one might design a programme to do it for you and send the right cookies back.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 20, 2012)

*DWP confirms benefit cap to be trialled in 4 London boroughs*

http://www.24dash.com/news/central_...r.it&utm_medium=twitter#.UNNacuxy8qs.facebook


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 20, 2012)

*Newsnight reveals inaccuracies in Iain Duncan Smith's CV*

*http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2002/12_december/19/newsnight_ids_cv.shtml*


 No surprise...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 20, 2012)

BBC Newsnight




> Mr Duncan Smith's office has now confirmed to Newsnight that he did not get any qualifications there either, but that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.


 

Doesn't say what courses though.  Maybe first aid course, H&S course...


----------



## weepiper (Dec 20, 2012)

Fucking sack the cunt. Make him register for his own shitty Jobmatch site and sanction him when he doesn't apply for twenty jobs a day.


----------



## BigTom (Dec 20, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Fucking sack the cunt. Make him register for his own shitty Jobmatch site and sanction him when he doesn't apply for twenty jobs a day.



Lying on your cv/application form? Gross misconduct.


----------



## weepiper (Dec 20, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Lying on your cv/application form? Gross misconduct.


 
For the likes of you and me.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 20, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Fucking sack the cunt. Make him register for his own shitty Jobmatch site and sanction him when he doesn't apply for twenty jobs a day.


 
He's rich enough not to have to bother working though isn't he?


----------



## weepiper (Dec 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> He's rich enough not to have to bother working though isn't he?


 
I was only idly dreaming


----------



## Firky (Dec 20, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Lying on your cv/application form? Standard procedure.


 
FYP


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 20, 2012)

His info has disappeared from the Tory website too.

http://www.conservatives.com/Information/404.aspx?aspxerrorpath=/iainduncansmith/biography.cfm

I have celebrated the great news by sharing all this info with a few prolific tweeters who have taken this small nugget and are having some fun with it. Be rude not to I think.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 20, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> His info has disappeared from the Tory website too.
> 
> http://www.conservatives.com/Information/404.aspx?aspxerrorpath=/iainduncansmith/biography.cfm
> 
> I have celebrated the great news by sharing all this info with a few prolific tweeters who have taken this small nugget and are having some fun with it. Be rude not to I think.


 
Do they have millions of followers who are all retweeting?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 20, 2012)

Is lying on your CV a sanctionable offense on the new Universal Jobmatch programme?


----------



## framed (Dec 20, 2012)

How come none of this came out when he was leader of the Tory Party?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Do they have millions of followers who are all retweeting?


 
They have quite a few yes, some have retweeted, some have created new tweets of their own.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 20, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> They have quite a few yes, some have retweeted, some have created new tweets of their own.


 
I'm off for a butcher's


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm off for a butcher's


 
Don't just watch my lovely, share!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 20, 2012)

*The deficit myth exposed:*

*http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ramesh-patel/growth-cameron-austerity_b_2007552.html?utm_hp_ref=tw*


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 20, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Don't just watch my lovely, share!


 
I don't do all that twitter business

Not seeing much there on IDS's CV porkies


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I don't do all that twitter business
> 
> Not seeing much there on IDS's CV porkies


Leave it all to me then? And then complain you are not seeeing much?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 20, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Leave it all to me then? And then complain you are not seeeing much?


 
Yes 

I steer clear of Twitter/Facebook and the like except for viewing


----------



## DownwardDog (Dec 22, 2012)

weepiper said:


> follow him on twitter, he seems like a good sort. @IanLaveryMP


 
His HNC from Sunderland Poly and career as an NUM _porteur d'eau_ has proven fine preparation for the rhetorical jousting in the HoC.


----------



## ash (Dec 22, 2012)

It wasnt on newsnight was it??


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 22, 2012)

> G4S to run Universal Credit call centres: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/55a91136-486f-11e2-a1c0-00144feab49a.html#axzz2EfJbg6t0 … #*boycottworkfare* #*workfare* #*g4s* #*universalcredit*




Double facepalm because the article isn't available for all to read! :/

Can anyone here oblige?


----------



## BigTom (Dec 23, 2012)

UC benefit cap delayed by 6 months cos of IT problems, except in 4 London boroughs where pilots will still go ahead from April.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/22/benefit-cap-delay-dwp-criticism?CMP=twt_gu



> Ministers are facing accusations of chaos over welfare reform after announcing that the introduction of the government's flagship benefits cap of £500 a week will be delayed across most of the country for up to six months.
> 
> The hold-up – believed to be the result of concerns over computer software – took councils, job centres and MPs by surprise and raised questions about the timetable for wider changes being planned to the entire benefits system.
> 
> ...


 
So no good news for many Londoners, who are likely to be the most affected by the cap, but the rest of us get a breathing space, and more knowledge that the IT side of UC is going wrong and hope that it'll all fall apart...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 23, 2012)

> *The food banks keeping families from going hungry this Christmas*
> 
> Three open every week and 15,000 people will turn to them over the festive period. For one family in Salisbury, the arrival of the Trussell Trust's seasonal hamper has made all the difference


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/23/food-bank-salisbury-christmas?intcmp=239

Great article featuring a woman I have met in the anti-bedroom tax campaign groups online.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 23, 2012)

BigTom said:


> UC benefit cap delayed by 6 months cos of IT problems, except in 4 London boroughs where pilots will still go ahead from April.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/22/benefit-cap-delay-dwp-criticism?CMP=twt_gu
> 
> ...


 
Loads of areas around the country are affected by the bedroom tax already though and more to come in April.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 26, 2012)

> *Germany 'exporting' old and sick to foreign care homes*
> 
> Pensioners are being sent to care homes in eastern Europe and Asia in an austerity move dismissed as 'inhumane deportation'


 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/26/german-elderly-foreign-care-homes

Not the UK but how far are we away from this shit...convince me I shouldn't be upset about this....

*weeps


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 28, 2012)

Suggested mass trolling of the Jobmatch site...https://www.facebook.com/events/509091669130831/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 29, 2012)

> *Welfare reform: is a point of philosophy worth a loss of capacity?*
> 
> A study into the financial impact of welfare reform on southern housing associations prompts new questions of government


http://www.guardian.co.uk/housing-n...-reform-philosophy-capacity#start-of-comments


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 29, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Double facepalm because the article isn't available for all to read! :/
> 
> Can anyone here oblige?


G4S, the company at the centre of the Olympics security fiasco, is set to win a role in implementing the government’s contentious and complex changes to child benefit and the universal credit.
The FTSE 100 company is among six selected to run call centres that will deal with queries on the most far-reaching change to welfare benefits for the low-paid and unemployed in decades. The contracts – to be announced in February – are worth a total £150m over four years. G4S, Serco, Capita, Balfour Beatty and two other companies were selected from a total of 30 applicants by the Department for Work and Pensions.

The inclusion of G4S suggests that the government has ignored MPs’ calls for the company to be blacklisted from public sector work, after it failed to provide 10,400 security guards for the London Olympics. The company has agreed to reimburse the military after the army was called in to make up the shortfall, but remains locked in negotiations with the London Olympics organising committee over how much it will be paid for the botched security contract.
Sean Williams, managing director of G4S employment support services, said the call-centre decision showed “we can still win business ... We’ve done a massive amount of work for the government over the past few years and we hope the government recognises that.”
Universal credit, under which six benefits will be incorporated into a single payment, is due to be rolled out over the next five years. Pilot projects will start in the spring in advance of a national rollout next autumn.
Call centres will be established to help employers and claimants deal with the changes. They will also deal with landmark changes to child benefit, expected early next year, as well as child maintenance payments.
Ian Mulhern, director of the Social Market Foundation, said: “The universal credit was supposed to be made simple by the amount of online contact but the complexity of claimants’ lives and businesses’ circumstances is likely to make phone contact with the DWP integral to the running of the system.”
G4S, which also runs prison and asylum services for the UK government, was one of the more successful providers of the welfare-to-work programme. It ranked fifth out of 18 suppliers in finding employment for jobseekers during the first year of the scheme’s operation, according to recently published government figures.
The company lost two directors in the wake of the Olympics fiasco as an expected £10m profit on the £284m trophy contract turned into a £50m loss. But Nick Buckles, chief executive, has retained the investors’ support and remains at the helm of the global security group, which operates in 125 countries worldwide.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 29, 2012)

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...new-year-message-counter-tories-welfare-myths

One Nation? What the hell is he up to...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 29, 2012)

Another politicaly scripted media phrase we're all supposed to 'get behind'. Sick of that shit.

LimpDumbs seems to be Fair Society and Centre-ground. Lying cunts.


----------



## BigTom (Dec 31, 2012)

Ian Duncan Smith lying his arse off about tax credits: http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-ids-tax-credit-claims-discredited/12160


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 31, 2012)

He just can't help himself now. Relentless.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> He just can't help himself now. Relentless.


 
The man's an absolute worm.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 31, 2012)

Worm spelled CUNT.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Worm spelled CUNT.


 
Thing is, I reckon the guy/worm/cunt actually believes what he's doing is for the best - The rest of them are just upper class thugs delighting in the fact that they've got carte blanche to vandalise the bandstand. He took a trip to Easterhouse and saw the poverty and hopelessness and, being an imbecile, thought the way to eradicate the poverty is to withdraw benefits & council housing. As if all the problems in places like Easterhouse didn't exist in days prior to council housing and benefits - They _did_ exist and would've been a fuck of a lot worse in a single ended tenement shared with about twelve family members & assorted hangers on.

Hopefully, his zealotry will prove to be his undoing and the rest of the bullingdon boys will later him off as a liability - Oh well, we can always hope.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 2, 2013)

Cardiff against the Cuts action in Cardiff on 12 Jan between noon and 2
http://www.dpac.uk.net/2013/01/get-...noon-2pm-say-no-to-scapegoating-of-claimants/
e2a - Cardiff against the Cuts, not just DPAC


----------



## 8115 (Jan 3, 2013)

I saw this on the Guardian website, don't read if you're prone to getting angry.  The headline is slighty inflammatory but yeah, even so. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jan/03/obesity-benefits-cuts

What about, I don't know, proper local planning to promote public health, a policy of encouraging small local shops which sell healthy food, whatever?


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2013)

8115 said:


> I saw this on the Guardian website, don't read if you're prone to getting angry. The headline is slighty inflammatory but yeah, even so.
> <snip>
> What about, I don't know, proper local planning to promote public health, a policy of encouraging small local shops which sell healthy food, whatever?


FFS! If the government (local or national) really gave a toss about the health of benefit claimants, they'd subsidise leisure centres & swimming pools a lot more than they do now, not to mention providing free public transport there and back.

As it is, the red tape just to get a discount is ridiculous.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 3, 2013)

ARGH JUST FUCK OFF FFS



> housing and council tax benefit payments could be varied to reward or incentivise residents


 
the language they use makes me want to kill. When is someone going to 'vary' Eric fucking Pickles's payments to 'incentivise' him?


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 3, 2013)

weepiper said:


> ARGH JUST FUCK OFF FFS
> 
> 
> 
> the language they use makes me want to kill. When is someone going to 'vary' Eric fucking Pickles's payments to 'incentivise' him?


I'd like to vary his face tbh.


----------



## 8115 (Jan 3, 2013)

weepiper said:


> ARGH JUST FUCK OFF FFS the language they use makes me want to kill. When is someone going to 'vary' Eric fucking Pickles's payments to 'incentivise' him?


 
Yeah, "varied".  I doubt they mean upwards.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 3, 2013)

Sophie Christiansen, one of the few paralympians to speak up on benefits cuts

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/paralympic-golden-girl-sophie-christiansen-1512087

Comments are interesting though and quite understandable how a lot of people are pissed off about how paralympians are only speaking out now


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 3, 2013)

Suffering fuck: http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10138097.Councillor_in_attack_on_food_bank/

Get rid of food banks, it just means people can afford booze and ciggies.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Jan 3, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I'd like to vary his face tbh.


I'd like to vary the number of pints of blood in his body.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 3, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Suffering fuck: http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10138097.Councillor_in_attack_on_food_bank/
> 
> Get rid of food banks, it just means people can afford booze and ciggies.


 

What a twunt


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jan 3, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Suffering fuck: http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10138097.Councillor_in_attack_on_food_bank/
> 
> Get rid of food banks, it just means people can afford booze and ciggies.


 
"Tory Councillor Attacked & Killed at local bank" - cunts.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 3, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Suffering fuck: http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10138097.Councillor_in_attack_on_food_bank/
> 
> Get rid of food banks, it just means people can afford booze and ciggies.


worra cock, make him work in one for a day 
so many silly kites been flown on a daily basis now


----------



## Firky (Jan 3, 2013)

I think he's been raiding the bank.

And put a tie on you scruffy fuck.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 3, 2013)

It looks like it's yet another well-fed conservative making these comments.  Looks like he's more than managing to feed himself


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 3, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Suffering fuck: http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10138097.Councillor_in_attack_on_food_bank/
> 
> Get rid of food banks, it just means people can afford booze and ciggies.


 
I think this story deserves its own thread


----------



## _angel_ (Jan 3, 2013)

Jesus christ.


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Jan 3, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Suffering fuck: http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10138097.Councillor_in_attack_on_food_bank/
> 
> Get rid of food banks, it just means people can afford booze and ciggies.


There are some good comments, such as 





> once they make foodbanks look acceptable to the voters, they will pull benefits to save money for a new golf course.


 They made another good point about people (not) realizing soaring crime will affect them at some point. That said, not that many would go as far as that swine. It's like a game of pogo.


----------



## _angel_ (Jan 3, 2013)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> There are some good comments, such as They made another good point about people (not) realizing soaring crime will affect them at some point. That said, not that many would go as far as that swine. It's like a game of pogo.


Another comment... 


> Perhaps as a follow up to this story The Press could arrange for Cllr Steward to swap with a family who uses a York food bank for a week as an experiment.
> 
> Either he'll be proven right or he will have discovered a new found understanding of the lives of those who are not fortunate enough to share in his experiences of morbid obesity.


I _know_ his size shouldn't have anything to do with it, but the sight of a hugely over fed man telling people that there's no such thing as hunger in the UK is really beyond the pale.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 3, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> Another comment...
> 
> I _know_ his size shouldn't have anything to do with it, but the sight of a hugely over fed man telling people that there's no such thing as hunger in the UK is really beyond the pale.


 
but he's not the only overfed one, there's a few of them at it.  Look at how happy he is that's he's probably just scoffed his face with expensive food courtesy of us taxpayers


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 4, 2013)

firky said:


> I think he's been raiding the bank.
> 
> And put a tie on you scruffy fuck.


It gets better, he's a stockbroker... http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/...ood-banks-works-as-stockbroker-chris-steward/


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 4, 2013)

And just for comparison... http://politicalscrapbook.net/2011/05/mps-expenses-vs-benefit-fraud/


----------



## Corax (Jan 4, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Suffering fuck: http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10138097.Councillor_in_attack_on_food_bank/
> 
> Get rid of food banks, it just means people can afford booze and ciggies.


Fuckin 'ell, just come across that elsewhere.


> "The fact some give food to food banks, merely enables people who can’t budget or don’t want to, to have more money to spend on alcohol, cigarettes etc.


Words fail me.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 5, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> It gets better, he's a stockbroker... http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/...ood-banks-works-as-stockbroker-chris-steward/


 
Seeing as he's so happy to probe other people's personal spending and finances, he presumably wouldn't mind people looking at his. Would it be terribly intrusive to make an FOI request or pop down to the council offices and enquire how much public money he claims in expenses as a councillor? Also, any interesting share dealings on his part? Arms companies and the like?

After all, if he's so keen on judging other people's financial situation he won't mind sharing his, now will he?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> It gets better, he's a stockbroker... http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/...ood-banks-works-as-stockbroker-chris-steward/


 
He's a stockbroker who, on top of the money he got from that, took £10,355.14p in councillors' allowances (so it doesn't include expenses) in 2011-2012. His allowances are more than some people are able to earn in a year. What a cunt in vaguely human form he is!

@Bakunin


----------



## Mr Blob (Jan 6, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Ian Duncan Smith lying his arse off about tax credits: http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-ids-tax-credit-claims-discredited/12160


Never trust Tories making decisions for the nation


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 6, 2013)

@Firky - better watch your back...

Woman recovering from double lung transplant has benefits cut to £21 a week... http://politicsuk.eu/archives/12255


----------



## perthperson (Jan 7, 2013)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2257758/Im-giving-child-benefit-today-children---arent-saddled-debts-forever-says-Chancellor-George-Osborne.html?ito=feeds-newsxml   

I'm not actually certain that this is the Daily Mail or if it's a spoof - the arrogance is unbelievable


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

perthperson said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2257758/Im-giving-child-benefit-today-children---arent-saddled-debts-forever-says-Chancellor-George-Osborne.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
> 
> I'm not actually certain that this is the Daily Mail or if it's a spoof - the arrogance is unbelievable


 
George Osborne says that to us, I say to George Osborne:  "a few quid a week is fuck all to a millionaire cunt like you, George. Your gesture politics suck pig piss".
What a worthless individual he is.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 7, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> @Firky - better watch your back...
> 
> Woman recovering from double lung transplant has benefits cut to £21 a week... http://politicsuk.eu/archives/12255


 


See the comment?



> Dean Wales · Top Commenter · University of Essex
> I'm not surprised by this.A GP visited my home to assess for DLA, the resultant report being used to remove DLA to the same level here, £20.55 per week.The same report refers to my , 'Alzheimers, prognosis unlikely to change', and comments upon my shuffling walk...I do not have Alzheimers, nor do I have a shuffling walk-I have Aspergers.
> Reply · 16 ·· December 20, 2012 at 10:18am


----------



## krink (Jan 8, 2013)

I felt I had to post something positive after reading the depressing stuff above so for anyone in the north east there's this anti-cuts march and demo coming up in newcastle:

http://www.facebook.com/events/317213151729629/?ref=2

soz i don't know anything else about it other than what it says on the page.

There is also a 'save our libraries' thing happening in newcastle that seems to be growing:

http://www.facebook.com/SaveNewcastleLibraries?ref=ts&fref=ts

cheers.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 8, 2013)




----------



## equationgirl (Jan 8, 2013)

MPs back benefits increase cut to 1% instead of inflation. The c*nts 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20950691

Bastards.


----------



## ash (Jan 8, 2013)

A great quote from a journalist on Sky press preview   ' the Tories are re-toxifying'.  Couldn't have put it better myself ( the polar opposite of detoxifying)


----------



## BigTom (Jan 9, 2013)

And just to note that on Newsnight last night Stephen Timms said Labour will not reverse it. total fucking scum the lot of them, not that we needed to say it here but a pox on all their houses.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 9, 2013)

BigTom said:


> And just to note that on Newsnight last night Stephen Timms said Labour will not reverse it. total fucking scum the lot of them, not that we needed to say it here but a pox on all their houses.


 
Vote for Labour, vote for more of the same.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 9, 2013)

I am utterly depressed. I'm screwed whether or not I get work, because I'm not going to be able to work without paying for childcare for some years, and unless someone gives me a job paying £28k plus (ha!) I'm_ never_ going to get free of universal credit because of the cost of childcare and because private rents are so high. I already used to fantasise about winning the lottery or inheriting a wodge from a distant unknown relative and going down to the HB office and the Jobcentre and tearing their pissy letters up at the front desk. I watched most of the debate yesterday. Fucking smug laughing fat overprivileged Tory fucks. Only about 6 of them actually bothered their arses to stay and listen for the whole thing. And the few decent Labour backbenchers who were arguing against the bill just make it worse. If I could guarantee voting Labour would get me more of them I'd do it at the drop of a hat, but it's not them that makes the policies is it? It's the scum that rises to the top.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 9, 2013)

I'm not even going to get caught in the worst of this, just enough to see and know what it's going to be like for those who are, I'm pretty confident I'll be able to find some work to pay me around £13-15k I need to move off UC in the next year (mind you, I've been thinking that for the past couple of years and it hasn't happened yet). It's totally fucked and I'm veering around between depression and rage as I have been for the past few years. I stood around and watched the riots in 2011, and a few cafes were hit with people taking food as well as trying to break into the tills, I expect to see supermarkets getting done over this summer. I hope that people will turn on explicitly political targets too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 9, 2013)

BigTom said:


> And just to note that on Newsnight last night Stephen Timms said Labour will not reverse it. total fucking scum the lot of them, not that we needed to say it here but a pox on all their houses.


 
Come on, Tom. We all knew that'd be their position, anyway. You only have to read the shit Liam Byrne has been spouting for the last couple of years to know that residualising state welfare to the people (because heaven forfend they do the same with state welfare for business!) would still be on the cards.

I mean, how can honest neoliberal multinationals benefit from welfare if they can't get contracts to manage it, hmm?


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 9, 2013)

ash said:


> A great quote from a journalist on Sky press preview ' the Tories are re-toxifying'. Couldn't have put it better myself ( the polar opposite of detoxifying)


 
Not that Rupert would be pissed off at the current government for not doing everything it could to muzzle the whole News International scandal, obviously...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 10, 2013)

http://www.michaelmeacher.info/webl...-the-house-now-fixed-for-thursday-17-january/

Atos debate!


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 10, 2013)

Fatboy has now eaten all the humble pies....he even apologises on Twitter. 

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/...-claimed-no-poverty-in-uk-to-visit-food-bank/

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10143081.___No_poverty____Tory_councillor_to_visit_food_bank/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 10, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Fatboy has now eaten all the humble pies....he even apologises on Twitter.
> 
> http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/...-claimed-no-poverty-in-uk-to-visit-food-bank/
> 
> http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10143081.___No_poverty____Tory_councillor_to_visit_food_bank/


 




The tweets

  8 Jan 13  
petition calling on Cllr Steward to withdraw comments on food banks & monitor impact of gov welfare reform agenda #*york* sameoldtories.org.uk



 Chris Steward @*chrisdsteward* 
@*mr_andy_c* I pretty much do withdraw them and apologise
 8 Jan 13​


 Andrew Collingwood @*mr_andy_c* 
  8 Jan 13  
@*chrisdsteward* so you accept that they are required in the UK?​


 Chris Steward @*chrisdsteward* 
@*mr_andy_c* I accept there are lots of people using them in real, massive need


Why do the words "pretty much" not convince me his apology isn't entirely sincere?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 11, 2013)

Not campaigning as such, but this is a useful bit of mapping from the Guradian:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/nov/14/local-authority-cuts-map






It almost looks as though these cuts were designed to effect the greatest reductions in spending power in the poorest regions, whilst leaving the residents of Surrey almost unscathed on average.


----------



## Jackobi (Jan 14, 2013)

Extracts from a complete clusterfuck.

"*Poorer households face postcode lottery as council tax benefit cuts bite*

Low-income households face a "postcode lottery" of council tax bills for the first time since the system was introduced, which will involve some low-income people paying nothing and others facing a potential bill of thousands of pounds a year."

"...in Lancashire, where the 9,000 low-income households in Ribble Valley, Wyre and Chorley – controlled by Tory and Labour administrations – will face annual council tax bills of about £80 a year. However, in neighbouring Pendle, where no party is in overall control, 6,000 low-income voters will have to pay £176"

"Tower Hamlets has decided not to charge its 26,000 low-income households. Across the capital in Brent, a similar number of people face an annual bill of £240 a year."

"[A] conservative council has decided that families living in bigger houses – those in Bands F to H – will have to pay the full council tax of almost £3,000 a year irrespective of income. It advises families to "move to a smaller property" or get a lodger."

"Ealing council, controlled by Labour, has decided on a minimum payment of about £210 a year, but this jumps to £330 for residents unemployed for more than 12 months."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/201...holds-postcode-lottery-council-tax?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## existentialist (Jan 14, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> Ealing council, controlled by Labour, has decided on a minimum payment of about £210 a year, but this jumps to £330 for residents unemployed for more than 12 months."


 
I love this!

What kind of twisted logic carries through the idea that, because someone hasn't found a job in a year, they're somehow in a better position to pay more outgoings?

I know where it's coming from - it's this endless mantra of "not fair on the taxpayer", which translates into the idea that we're going to support the unemployed for a fixed time interval, but no longer - as if that kind of support can ever really be optional.

It's not often I find myself wishing for civil unrest, but if the Government want riots, then all they have to do is to keep passing legislation like this, which disempowers and demeans benefits claimants in equal measure, and introduces a nice line in Kafkaesque bureacratic illogic to really wind people up.

And, while perhaps those sick enough to need ESA are perhaps not the greatest threat to civil order, pissing off the "merely" unemployed is going to give our already-stretched police a major challenge. Which, in view of the way they've been treated by this government, might not be one they're always going to be falling over themselves to meet.

But that's OK, we've got the army...oh.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 14, 2013)

The Coop have said they are not going to renew their occupational health contract with ATOS:

http://www.facebook.com/TheCooperative/posts/10151255338219582



> Hello everyone, here is an update as promised on our occupational healthcare provider, many thanks for your patience on this matter.
> 
> The Co-operative Group can confirm that a robust procurement process considering, amongst other factors, cost, operational efficiency and geographical capability is currently underway for our occupational health services provider. Having been scored against an agreed set of parameters and against other bidders, Atos Healthcare have not progressed to the later rounds of that process and our intention is to have a new provider in place when the current contract terminates.
> Gail.


 
Obviously not explicit about why but I'm sure that the campaigns and consistent online stuff has had an effect, I hope that privately that's what they are telling ATOS anyway, so that someone in the OH section will be pissed off at losing this contract and will be mouthing off at their boss and whatever section does the WCA (I know they'll be the same person eventually in charge of both and this contract won't matter next to the DWP one but it can help create a tension in the company over their involvement).


----------



## ddraig (Jan 14, 2013)

great!


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 14, 2013)

BigTom said:


> The Coop have said they are not going to renew their occupational health contract with ATOS:
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/TheCooperative/posts/10151255338219582
> 
> ...


 
yeah, hopefully atos won't be too happy about it.
i'd love to think it, but i'm not entirely sure that the campaigns were responsible for them being dropped (unless, of course, the co-operative _deliberately_ set tender criteria that they wouldn't have been able to meet... )


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 14, 2013)

BigTom said:


> The Coop have said they are not going to renew their occupational health contract with ATOS:
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/TheCooperative/posts/10151255338219582
> 
> ...


Thank fuck for that, I was running out of places to buy organic milk.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 15, 2013)

And the judicial review starts today, IIRC.

Best of luck to all involved.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> yeah, hopefully atos won't be too happy about it.
> i'd love to think it, but i'm not entirely sure that the campaigns were responsible for them being dropped (unless, of course, the co-operative _deliberately_ set tender criteria that they wouldn't have been able to meet... )


 
To be fair, even if the campaigns had totally influenced them, they'd be dumb to publicly admit that, and leave an opening for ATOS to take them to court with (i.e. not judging ATOS strictly on the criteria they used for other tenderers).


----------



## weepiper (Jan 17, 2013)

350 applications for 12 available jobs in Edinburgh. 30 per job. We're all lazy scroungers though, eh?

https://twitter.com/edinburghpaper/status/291873705645207553/photo/1/large


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 17, 2013)

WORK CAPABILITY ASSESSMENT DEBATE LIVE NOW

THINK IT STARTED AROUND 11.00 so probably missed most of it


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 17, 2013)

Came across this story on this page

http://theprotestorpoet.wordpress.com/2013/01/07/the-fear-of-the-wca-the-fight-for-justice/



> Trialia Alexandra Hall January 7, 2013 at 3:47 am
> Thank you so much for bringing yourself to write this. It’s something some of us simply can’t manage to do. My fingers, wrists and metacarpals dislocate if I type too much – some of them are already – and yet the DWP still say I should be in the work-related activity group, despite my specialist consultant telling them I’ll never be fit for work again. I didn’t have a WCA for ESA. I was put straight into the WRAG, despite pages upon pages of evidence showing them how and why I am unable to work in my current state and that I am only going to get worse from here.
> 
> I have severe Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, type 3, secondary fibromyalgia, asthma, and ultradian-cycling bipolar disorder (type not specified) with OCD traits and occasional psychotic episodes. I am on 340mg of morphine daily as well as eight other medications. I have three care visits in a day, totalling 1 hour 15 minutes, with an extra 30 minutes twice a week for a shower – if the care agency get it right, which they rarely do (it’s all social services will grant me, despite my need for more assistance). I use an electric wheelchair most of the time as I’m incapable of managing a manual without further joint damage and pain.
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh, didn't know about this 



> The government’s proposals include withdrawal of benefit if an assessor believes that medication would reduce the risks posed by a claimant's condition, seemingly without regard for whether it would be appropriate in a work context.
> 
> Under the changes, benefit will also be withdrawn if an assessor believes an adjustment could be made in a workplace, without explicit assessment of whether that adjustment is actually going to be available.
> 
> ...


 
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/17812


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 17, 2013)

Transcript of today's debate

http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...s/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/431/#ht


----------



## Jackobi (Jan 17, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh, didn't know about this
> 
> http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/17812


 
Apparently these changes relate directly to The Employment and Support Allowance (Amendment) Regulations 2012 which are effective from 28th January 2013.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 17, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> Apparently these changes relate directly to The Employment and Support Allowance (Amendment) Regulations 2012 which are effective from 28th January 2013.


 
Yeah I know. It just gets worse and worse 

I wonder if they can call people in for re-assessment to take into account these need regulations?  Will loads of people who have already made it into the WRAG or SG now need to be reassessed?


----------



## teqniq (Jan 17, 2013)

Bit of good news for people in Wales:

Council Tax Benefit Cuts Called Off As Welsh Government Finds £22Million



> Cuts to council tax benefit which would have meant bills for 230,000 people for the first time will not go ahead as the Welsh government finds another £22m.
> 
> Source: BBC News
> 
> ...


 
'Flexibility' eh? Where was it, down the back of the sofa?

Whose cash is that money?


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 18, 2013)

ATOS style assessments for all, even working people...

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/lord-fraud-announces-atos-for-everyone/

Renaming of sicknotes in 1984 lulztroll: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/fitnote/


----------



## cesare (Jan 19, 2013)

The government omitted to register all the domains for the new universal job match scheme:

http://universaljobmatch.eu/


----------



## 8115 (Jan 20, 2013)

> _The government’s proposals include withdrawal of benefit if an assessor believes that medication would reduce the risks posed by a claimant's condition, seemingly without regard for whether it would be appropriate in a work context._


 
I don't understand why they mention risk?

Also, that's disrespectful of people's right to make a choice about their own treatment.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2013)

8115 said:


> I don't understand why they mention risk?


 
I suspect that in this context, they mean risk of exacerbation of condition(s)/further damage. Basically, they'll be wanting to avoid results that mean that a firm of ambulance-chasers could get you a good payday off the DWP for making your health worse.



> Also, that's disrespectful of people's right to make a choice about their own treatment.


 
Of course it is, but it's of a piece with everything else they've been using to build their narrative about people with disabilities. Compulsion to work is an obvious next step that's already being trialed.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I suspect that in this context, they mean risk of exacerbation of condition(s)/further damage. Basically, they'll be wanting to avoid results that mean that a firm of ambulance-chasers could get you a good payday off the DWP for making your health worse.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is, but it's of a piece with everything else they've been using to build their narrative about people with disabilities. Compulsion to work is an obvious next step that's already being trialed.


 
But won't that make more sick people (even with maybe minor illnesses) unemployable and therefore sent by JSA to ESA for ESA to say "get a job you skiver"?


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I suspect that in this context, they mean risk of exacerbation of condition(s)/further damage. *Basically, they'll be wanting to avoid results that mean that a firm of ambulance-chasers could get you a good payday off the DWP for making your health worse.*
> 
> Of course it is, but it's of a piece with everything else they've been using to build their narrative about people with disabilities. Compulsion to work is an obvious next step that's already being trialed.


I suspect they run a very good chance of that if they insist on people using meds or aids that haven't been prescribed by the GP. And serve them right if they are sued.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> But won't that make more sick people (even with maybe minor illnesses) unemployable and therefore sent by JSA to ESA for ESA to say "get a job you skiver"?


 
What do they care, as long as they can play any temporary drop in claimant count as "getting the scrounging cripples back to work"?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I suspect they run a very good chance of that if they insist on people using meds or aids that haven't been prescribed by the GP. And serve them right if they are sued.


 
Damn right.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 22, 2013)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...ised-to-five-years-after-you-die-201006252851

PEOPLE will be expected to work for a minimum of five years as a zombie under new government plans to raise the retirement age.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 23, 2013)

'Hell-oooo everybody!'


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 25, 2013)

New Stateman write-up on the WCA Parliamentary Debate

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/01/shadow-state-atos-and-work-capability-assessment


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 25, 2013)

The utter shambles PIP is going to be as seen by the evidence given to the Work and Pensions Committee by Esther McVey MP, Simon Dawson and Dr Bill Gunnyeon on 21st January. 

The answers to questions were farcical. Worth reading just for Sheila Gilmore getting stuck into McVey

Oh and this....



> Q122 Sheila Gilmore: Could I just ask about older people? It appears that people who turn 65, when this all starts, will be reassessed. Is that correct, even though the assessment will not start until later?
> 
> Simon Dawson: Yes. People who turn 65 and are in receipt of DLA after 8 April this year will be still in the reassessment pool, so will be selected for reassessment at some point between then and when those reassessments start in October 2015 and October 2017.
> 
> ...


----------



## weepiper (Jan 25, 2013)

Can anyone confirm that I am reading this right, that under Universal Credit mothers are going to be subject to work-related requirements from when the youngest child is not even 4 months old?  What happened to 6 months maternity leave?



> Claimants subject to no work-related requirements
> 89.—(1) A claimant falls within section 19 of the Act (claimants subject to no work-related requirements) if—.
> 
> 
> (c)the claimant is pregnant and it is 11 weeks or less before her expected week of confinement, or was pregnant and it is 15 weeks or less since the date of her confinement


 
From here, Part 8 Chapter 1

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531938/contents


----------



## captainmission (Jan 25, 2013)

That's in line with existing income support legislation which only grants eligability _on ground of pregnancy f_or cover 11 weeks before and 15 weeks after.

You're reading the regulations , which need to be read alongside the act itself. The act states;

19 Claimants subject to no work-related requirements
(1) The Secretary of State may not impose any work-related requirement on a​claimant falling within this section.​(2) A claimant falls within this section if—​ 
(c) the claimant is the responsible carer for a child under the age of 1, or​


----------



## weepiper (Jan 25, 2013)

captainmission said:


> That's in line with existing income support legislation which only grants eligability _on ground of pregnancy f_or cover 11 weeks before and 15 weeks after.
> 
> You're reading the regulations , which need to be read alongside the act itself. The act states;
> 
> ...


 
I did wonder because I've seen the 'child under one' part elsewhere but all I could find in the regulations as an exemption was 'foster parent of a child under one'. Thanks. I see though that lone parents of a foster child have no requirement to look for work beyond work-focused interviews (i.e. they can't be sanctioned for refusing an interview or refusing a job on childcare grounds etc) if they have a child in their care under 16, whereas if it's your own child it's only til they reach 5.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 25, 2013)

captainmission said:


> That's in line with existing income support legislation which only grants eligability _on ground of pregnancy f_or cover 11 weeks before and 15 weeks after.
> 
> You're reading the regulations , which need to be read alongside the act itself. The act states;
> 
> ...


 
That is in regards to a woman who is part of a couple, ie living with her partner. A single pregnant woman is eligible for IS from 11 wks before the EDC but will remain on IS, at present, until the youngest child is 5.


----------



## captainmission (Jan 25, 2013)

that wouldn't be on the grounds of pregnancy though, it'd be on the ground being a single parent with a child under 5. Although for a single claimant the distinction wouldn't make any practical difference.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 25, 2013)

captainmission said:


> that wouldn't be on the grounds of pregnancy though, it'd be on the ground being a single parent with a child under 5. Although for a single claimant the distinction wouldn't make any practical difference.


 
Not quite, if a woman is either on JSA, or ESA or in work but not going to bet Maternity Allowance or Statutory Maternity Pay she can claim IS, from 11 weeks before the EDC (taken from the Sunday before the EDC), as exceptional conditions 01, ie expecting. The entitlement does not end 15wks after the EDC however as she 'becomes', under IS regs, a lone parent.


----------



## captainmission (Jan 25, 2013)

ok, i'm not seeing your 'not quite' there, but i'd rather not engage in this level of pedantry on a thread about campagining


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 26, 2013)

Work harder you plebs!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9825271/Cut-in-tax-credits-increase-workers-hours.html


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 26, 2013)

.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 26, 2013)

Under the new system Jobcentre staff with less than full time hours will have to sanction themselves. 

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/01/25/jobcentre-staff-to-be-forced-to-sanction-themselves/


----------



## BigTom (Jan 26, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Under the new system Jobcentre staff with less than full time hours will have to sanction themselves.
> 
> http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/01/25/jobcentre-staff-to-be-forced-to-sanction-themselves/


 
 I agree with what he said at the end though - that this may present an opportunity to build collective action with job centre staff. However, I'm partly just laughing at the thought of some cuntish advisor somewhere on part time hours seeing the other end of the system. Tempted to make a leaflet for JCP staff based on this post though...


----------



## Firky (Jan 28, 2013)

> A year ago they were devastated by the loss of their little girl to cancer. And to help them cope they turned seven year-old Becky Bell's room into a shrine. But now the family, from Hartlepool, face paying hundreds of pounds extra in rent - because of new Government rules which mean tenants have to pay more if they have a spare room. Some call it the "bedroom tax". Becky's family say it's "disgusting." Watch the full story on tonight's Look North - 6.30pm on BBC One.


 
:\


----------



## 8115 (Jan 28, 2013)

Panorama on now, who's getting rich off welfare reform.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 28, 2013)

8115 said:


> Panorama on now, who's getting rich off welfare reform.


Gosh, could the content have been any more predictable?


----------



## 8115 (Jan 28, 2013)

I had to turn off when the heartstrings started getting pulled. I can't take that stuff.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm telling you, Mastercard _must_ be bunging this Shelbrooke cunt money.



> Alec Shelbrooke MP's private member's bill proposing a "welfare cash card" that could not be spent on "luxury goods such as cigarettes, alcohol, Sky television and gambling" has sparked much debate about smart cards (or prepay cards) as a way to control people's benefitsspending.
> If a person's benefits are loaded on to a card, it can be blocked from being used in, say, casinos or off-licences. This has understandably provoked strong reactions: the issue of whether the government ought to have a say over how benefits are spent strikes right at the heart of theshirkers and strivers debate.
> In all the furore, people may not realise that prepay cards are already widely used for more constructive purposes. About 25% of local authorities are using prepay cards and another 30% plan on doing so this year, mainly to distribute direct payments in social care.
> In light of the remarkable spread of this relatively little-known technology,Demos have investigated further with the support of Mastercard. Our report, The Power of Prepaid, to be published on Wednesday, helps explain why these cards are becoming so popular for personal budget distribution – for one, they put an end to the paper-based auditing system associated with personal budgets.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jan/29/welfare-cash-cards-state-control?commentpage=1


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 29, 2013)

Shelbrooke is also a member of Nazi Boy Burley's Trade Union Reform Campaign.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Trade_Union_Reform_Campaign


----------



## weepiper (Jan 29, 2013)

The Demos report is funded by Mastercard. Shelbrooke was using his bill as a means of distracting from a recent twitter fuck-up

http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/alec-shelbrooke-ni/



> For Alec Shelbrooke:
> 
> This brings his name forward into the media, makes it more likely that people will talk about him as the MP concerned with the Welfare Cash Card instead of the MP who referred to Northern Ireland as Northern Island, and
> Given that his constituency, Elmet and Rothwell, has a 1.9% unemployment rate (substantially below the national average) the people who will be voting for him in 2015 are pretty much not going to be people who are unemployed or who know someone who is, certainly not the kind of people who would know anyone on an Azure Card.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 29, 2013)

and can I just say a big fat *FUCK OFF* to Shelbrooke AND Mastercard. Cunts.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 29, 2013)

He's put on more weight since that photo was taken. Is he trying to catch up with Pickles?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 29, 2013)

I can see these prepay benefit cards getting parially snuck in on the back of the Universal Credit. Apparently UC has to be paid into a bank account - Those (many) claimants who've only got a post office account, I can well imagine being railroaded into having to have one of these cards.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 29, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I can see these prepay benefit cards getting parially snuck in on the back of the Universal Credit. Apparently UC has to be paid into a bank account - Those (many) claimants who've only got a post office account, I can well imagine being railroaded into having to have one of these cards.


 
Yep. And you can bet your bottom dollar that whichever company gets the contract will provide the cards free for a limited time only, then they'll start to charge people for the privilege. You may as well whop an arm out and let them suck it dry right now.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

The draft PIP guides are now available on _Benefits and Work _website for anyone who's interested.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I can see these prepay benefit cards getting parially snuck in on the back of the Universal Credit. Apparently UC has to be paid into a bank account - Those (many) claimants who've only got a post office account, I can well imagine being railroaded into having to have one of these cards.


FWIW I've got a top up Mastercard and would I let the DWP pay my benefits onto it (or VP's card)? Would I bollocks. If the DWP had enough of my details to pay benefits onto that card, they'd also be able to monitor how much I spend and where.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

Greebo said:


> FWIW I've got a top up Mastercard and would I let the DWP pay my benefits onto it (or VP's card)? Would I bollocks. If the DWP had enough of my details to pay benefits onto that card, they'd also be able to monitor how much I spend and where.


 
I read something recently about Paypal accounts and the DWP but can't remember where? 

All I remember thinking was "fuck that"


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

ah, here it is



> *PayPal Gets A Slice Of £25m DWP Identity Contract*
> 
> *UK citizens will be able to register for the new Universal Credit system using their PayPal credentials*
> *On January 21, 2013* by *Peter Judge* *2*​*PayPal *has been awarded a place in the Government’s framework for Identity Assurance, so citizens may be allowed to use their PayPal credentials to prove their identity to access government services – particularly the new universal credit system.
> ...


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 30, 2013)

My aunt's council (Castle Point) are charging 30% minimum council tax! That's around £300 for a single working age person regardless of income.

"Regardless of financial circumstances, all working-age claimants will pay at least 30% of their council tax . This means people who currently get full Council Tax Benefit will have to pay something towards their council tax from 1st April 2013."

http://www.castlepoint.gov.uk/main.cfm?type=mrlcts


----------



## BigTom (Jan 31, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> My aunt's council (Castle Point) are charging 30% minimum council tax! That's around £300 for a single working age person regardless of income.
> 
> "Regardless of financial circumstances, all working-age claimants will pay at least 30% of their council tax . This means people who currently get full Council Tax Benefit will have to pay something towards their council tax from 1st April 2013."
> 
> http://www.castlepoint.gov.uk/main.cfm?type=mrlcts


 
wtf? If they are charging everyone it should only be 8.5% iirc, Birmingham will have unemployed and some disabled people paying 20% whilst others will still get the full benefit.


----------



## bi0boy (Jan 31, 2013)

BigTom said:


> wtf? If they are charging everyone it should only be 8.5% iirc, Birmingham will have unemployed and some disabled people paying 20% whilst others will still get the full benefit.


 
They claim it's their demographics:

*Why is the cut so severe for working age claimants?*
Castle Point has a high a level of pensioner claimants and, as the government has stipulated that pensioners must be fully protected, the funding cut falls on the remaining working age claimants. This has left the authority with very little room to manoeuvre and restricted our ability to make the scheme more flexible and offer greater protection for claimants.

*Why are disabled claimants not fully protected?*
The significant cut in Government funding means that we can't fully protect disabled claimants from reductions in Council Tax Support. All disabled claimants will have to pay a minimum 30% of their council tax. To fully protect disabled people from the scheme would be to the severe detriment of non disabled claimants. However, we are committed to protecting disabled people as much as we can by continuing to fully disregard Disability Living Allowance as income and retaining certain premiums that apply to disabled households.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 31, 2013)

fuck


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 31, 2013)

weepiper said:


> The Demos report is funded by Mastercard. Shelbrooke was using his bill as a means of distracting from a recent twitter fuck-up
> 
> http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/alec-shelbrooke-ni/


http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/vultures-circle-as-electronic-food-stamps-get-closer/


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 31, 2013)

BigTom said:


> wtf? If they are charging everyone it should only be 8.5% iirc, Birmingham will have unemployed and some disabled people paying 20% whilst others will still get the full benefit.


It's because more pensioners vote obvs.


----------



## youngian (Jan 31, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> My aunt's council (Castle Point) are charging 30% minimum council tax! That's around £300 for a single working age person regardless of income.
> 
> "Regardless of financial circumstances, all working-age claimants will pay at least 30% of their council tax . This means people who currently get full Council Tax Benefit will have to pay something towards their council tax from 1st April 2013."


 
This is essentially the Poll Tax MK II. Along with the revival of Major's workers rights abolition they're really determined to close some unfinished business.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jan 31, 2013)

IDS in "complete and utter cunt" shock terror surprise madness

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ys-addict-parents-waste-cash-drink-drugs.html


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 31, 2013)

twentythreedom said:


> IDS in "complete and utter cunt" shock terror surprise madness
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ys-addict-parents-waste-cash-drink-drugs.html


 
What a cunt - He's carrying on as though most/all claimants are addicts instead of a minority.  The man's beneath contempt, and not just a little bit below the surface but right down in the uncharted depths where not even angler fish light the way.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

Another ex ATOS nurse speaks out




> I resigned from Atos in 2012.





> As a nurse, I was taught to care and be compassionate about the people I was in contact with. This was not the case with Atos.
> 
> It was very much a target driven role and you were under constant pressure to meet these targets. We had to see a minimum of 6 clients per day, some nurses were managing 10 and I often wondered how. I was warned, on a number of occasions, about this. If another nurse asked for help, I was more than happy to help or discuss a difficult case. My manager had a firm, but polite, word with me in a quiet corner, and reminded me of my role, which was to meet targets, not have general chit chat with colleagues. We were not allowed to offer any advice to our clients and we were not supposed to engage in a conversation, unless it was about the assessment. This was extremely hard to avoid, especially with a client with learning difficulties, who would often love to chat!
> 
> ...


----------



## weepiper (Jan 31, 2013)

twentythreedom said:


> IDS in "complete and utter cunt" shock terror surprise madness
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ys-addict-parents-waste-cash-drink-drugs.html


 
too long for just a post 

http://furcoatnaenicks.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/poverty-of-ideas/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

weepiper said:


> too long for just a post
> 
> http://furcoatnaenicks.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/poverty-of-ideas/


 
What do you mean too long? 

*



			Poverty of ideas
		
Click to expand...

*


> Posted on January 31, 2013 by furcoatnaenicks
> 
> Everyone’s favourite megalomaniac Victorian moralist Iain Duncan-Smith is at it again:
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ys-addict-parents-waste-cash-drink-drugs.html
> ...


----------



## weepiper (Jan 31, 2013)

ok not too long, it's just easier formatting loads of quotes on Wordpress


----------



## treelover (Feb 1, 2013)

''David 1, Goliath 0

It's been a long road eh?

Remember when we heard about PIP? That DLA would be abolished, despite nothing in the Tory manifesto? Remember how we sat, open mouthed at the disgusting proposals? "Bathing" reclassified as a wipe with a flannel FROM THE WAIST UP? Paraplegics "fully mobile" if they used their wheelchairs TOO WELL? The day we heard 500,000 people would lose out entirely? Half a million of the "most vulnerable" cut adrift?

Remember the enormous thrill as Spartacus Report blazed around the world, the report WE wrote, WE funded exposing the government as liars and cheats?

Well my friends, a few weeks ago, this stubborn intractable government finally admitted defeat. The fingers I have in various pies started singing an astonishing tune. The government were frightened. They no longer had the stomach for a fight with the very people the public see ( rightly or wrongly) as the "real disabled". The private Tory polling was atrocious, the public had been rallying to our cause for longer than the Tories were admitting. Backbenchers were getting twitchy, ministers weren't sure a daily diet of abandoned cancer patients and cruelly cut off Parkinson's grannies were a good idea in the run up to an election.''

http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21287323


Massive news: PIP success for campaigners...

Have the Spartaci and others who have been campaigning against PIP had major victories in changing this disgusting test, etc?, Sue Marsh on 'Diary of a Benefit Scrounger' seems to think so, there does does seem to be large scale back pedalling and positive amendments, though some are cautious such as our own Paulie who has expressed some doubts, big news anyway with Lord fraud having to eat shit on the issue, and the BBC have had to report it in positive terms, now for the bedroom tax....

well done to all involved.

deserves its own thread imo...

(sorry quotes not working)


----------



## treelover (Feb 1, 2013)

btw, Sue Marsh is doing her benefits campaigning from her hospital sick bed, thats dedication...


----------



## Libertad (Feb 1, 2013)

*Do They Want A Riot? Here Comes the Poll Tax...*

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/02/01/do-they-want-a-riot-here-comes-the-poll-tax/#comments

Damning comment from "Darroch":

As Anton says Jobseeker’s Allowance is not supposed to be taxable; it is the absolute minimum amount of money that the law say you need in order to stay alive and buy food, drink, clothe yourself and so on and so forth.
If you are under 25 and have to pay £5.00 a week council tax you instantly lose about 9% of your income; additionally, if the monstrous George Osborne has his way, over the next three years benefit claimant will lose a minimum of about another 5% (could be very much more if inflation pick up) because benefits will updated by only 1% instead of the current rate of inflation according to the CPI.
So with prices going up with benefit claimants set to be robbed of 14% of their income over the next three years how will they be able to maintain their health? Before these real terms cuts benefit levels were inadequate to allow claimants to nourish themselves adequately and keep themselves warm.
People will suffer from malnutrition in 21st century England. People will freeze and be unable to eat hot food. Utilities essential for hygiene and health like water and electricity will be disconnected. Homelessness will soar. I can hardly bear to think about the spectacular wickedness perpetrated by this pernicious cancerous coalition.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 2, 2013)

Discrete assessment recording.. 
Fuck sake..!! 
Extremely evasive ending with "That's not my concern"


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> Discrete assessment recording..
> Fuck sake..!!
> Extremely evasive ending with "That's not my concern"


 

Refusing to give her qualifications other than healthcare practitioner.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2013)

treelover said:


> btw, Sue Marsh is doing her benefits campaigning from her hospital sick bed, thats dedication...


 
She's referring to "lifetime awards" in her write-up.  I thought there were no lifetime awards, only indefinite awards?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> She's referring to "lifetime awards" in her write-up. I thought there were no lifetime awards, only indefinite awards?


 
You're absolutely correct, Minnie.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're absolutely correct, Minnie.


 
Much as I admire all her hard work, using that instead of "indefinite awards" only reinforces what people have been told by politicians (ie. that people get lifetime awards)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2013)

I get the impression lifetime awards became "indefinite awards" in maybe 2010 judging by the thread here on MSE

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=2551555

Still, it makes people assume they'll never be reassessed unlike with an "indefinite award". Think the wording is important and I would have thought Sue would steer clear from using the word "lifetime" 

Although I do understand that maybe her writing is directed at disabled people who were given a lifetime award (and so still refer to it as such), even if it has been renamed, but I'd imagine it's not just people who this affects that read her blog


----------



## purenarcotic (Feb 4, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Much as I admire all her hard work, using that instead of "indefinite awards" only reinforces what people have been told by politicians (ie. that people get lifetime awards)


 
To be fair, she is posting from a hospital bed, and may have made a slip of the tongue so to speak.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 4, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> To be fair, she is posting from a hospital bed, and may have made a slip of the tongue so to speak.


 
Oh, I realise that, and fair play to her, but I just think that particular word should be swept away with.  Only ammunition for politicians/press


----------



## Urbanblues (Feb 6, 2013)

People who have not been reassessed since 'lifetime' awards became downgraded to 'indefinite' awards may still be categorized as lifetime.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 6, 2013)

Urbanblues said:


> People who have not been reassessed since 'lifetime' awards became downgraded to 'indefinite' awards may still be categorized as lifetime.


 
By who, the DWP or the general public?


----------



## purenarcotic (Feb 7, 2013)

I feel like crying to be honest. 

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/birmingham-budget-cuts-how-you-1299659



> *The cuts include*
> Children's Centres £3 million
> Youth Offending Service £400,000
> Early Years Support Service £1.3 million
> ...


----------



## BigTom (Feb 7, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> I feel like crying to be honest.
> 
> http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/birmingham-budget-cuts-how-you-1299659


 
Yep.

facebook event for demos and civil disobedience on the 26th when they'll vote for this crap:
http://www.facebook.com/events/117092498469912/


----------



## purenarcotic (Feb 7, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Yep.
> 
> facebook event for demos and civil disobedience on the 26th when they'll vote for this crap:
> http://www.facebook.com/events/117092498469912/


 
Will it be going on into the evening? I start my first training placement on that day, so not the sort of thing I can bunk sadly.

Although frankly with all those cuts it feels like what's the fucking point.  How the fuck am I going to find a job in 18 months time I just do not know.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 7, 2013)

Really really bad  Just had a look at Edinburgh's budget and they're cutting £95 million over 5 years which seems bad enough but _£600_ million??


----------



## BigTom (Feb 7, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Will it be going on into the evening? I start my first training placement on that day, so not the sort of thing I can bunk sadly.
> 
> Although frankly with all those cuts it feels like what's the fucking point.  How the fuck am I going to find a job in 18 months time I just do not know.



There will be a demo/rally probably from about 5pm until 7 or 8, details are not confirmed.

It's so fucked, there'll be little left of the council, you'll pretty well have to hope it gets replaced by centrally outsourced contracts, cos I don't know how they can cut children's services by so much, it'll have to come back in some form, with the children's homes closures this probably just means more money current on placements elsewhere in the UK, like last time they did it


----------



## BigTom (Feb 7, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Really really bad  Just had a look at Edinburgh's budget and they're cutting £95 million over 5 years which seems bad enough but _£600_ million??



Might be more like £700m before long, this includes the effect of inflation and rising demand for statutory services. This comes from the discretionary budget which was £1,298 million in 09/10'
Biggest local authority in Europe hence the huge numbers but I bet Edinburgh is losing a similar amount as a %


----------



## purenarcotic (Feb 7, 2013)

BigTom said:


> There will be a demo/rally probably from about 5pm until 7 or 8, details are not confirmed.
> 
> It's so fucked, there'll be little left of the council, you'll pretty well have to hope it gets replaced by centrally outsourced contracts, cos I don't know how they can cut children's services by so much, it'll have to come back in some form, with the children's homes closures this probably just means more money current on placements elsewhere in the UK, like last time they did it


 
Makes me so upset and so fucking angry.  And it feels so hopeless.


----------



## yield (Feb 7, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Makes me so upset and so fucking angry. And it feels so hopeless.


You should be angry but it ain't hopeless. Tell your family and friends. People aren't involved only because they don't realise how it impacts on their daily lives.

Get your message across to those you know and that's half of it done.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

> *Resist the cuts and stop worrying about your careers, trade union leader Len McCluskey tells Labour councillors*


http://www.camdennewjournal.com/new...careers-trade-union-leader-len-mccluskey-tell


----------



## BigTom (Feb 8, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Makes me so upset and so fucking angry. And it feels so hopeless.


 
The sad thing is that I can't see this getting turned around through protest - at least not with the size of protest that is likely to happen - it'll take catastrophe to make them stop and change direction  The value of protest/anti cuts groups is to be there when we reach breaking point for people who are looking for an alternative to turn to.


----------



## Red Cat (Feb 8, 2013)

I think that's true, unfortunately. 

If it were parents making these decisions on behalf of their children they'd be accused of abuse and neglect.


----------



## 8115 (Feb 8, 2013)

MPs critical of work capacity assessments and DWP.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21376915


----------



## Greebo (Feb 8, 2013)

8115 said:


> MPs critical of work capacity assessments and DWP.<snip>


Not before time.


----------



## stuff_it (Feb 9, 2013)

Bedfordshire housing association decides to pay board members several thousand per meeting..... 

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/201...per-meeting-whilst-tenants-face-homelessness/


----------



## Frances Lengel (Feb 9, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Bedfordshire housing association decides to pay board members several thousand per meeting.....
> 
> http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/201...per-meeting-whilst-tenants-face-homelessness/


 
Jesus Christ. I've always had a kind of knee jerk prejudice against HA's without knowing much about them, apart from the fact that the rents are always stiffer - Sometimes councils transfer all their properties over to HA and bribe tenants with new kitchens and a promise of no rent rises for 5 years. Different story after 5 years though.


----------



## Cloo (Feb 11, 2013)

Blog post-ette from me here: http://ukseenandnotseen.wordpress.com/2013/02/11/just/

I'm sick and tired of an approach to budget cuts whereby rich and privileged people seem to insist that poor people can 'just' do X or Y if they have their benefits cut, while singularly failing to recognise that one of the main advantages of money is choice. A lot of the people they're fucking over with cuts don't have other options they can enact or turn to to help them.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 13, 2013)

A final blog post 

http://gailbriggs.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/final-post.html?m=1


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 13, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> A final blog post
> 
> http://gailbriggs.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/final-post.html?m=1


 


Hope she gets a job offer soon


----------



## Libertad (Feb 13, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> A final blog post
> 
> http://gailbriggs.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/final-post.html?m=1


 
 Lots of support in the comments, I hope she can come through this.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 14, 2013)

so someone so desperate they tried to set themselves alight in a job centre as they were owed £1,100 has been jailed for 20 months!  
even tho he failed!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-21462731
"at least he'll get fed in there"


----------



## Cloo (Feb 16, 2013)

Dunno if this has been mentioned here earlier, but here's a campaign seeking to unite all factions opposed to the government, planning big day of action against 'austerity': http://www.coalitionofresistance.org.uk/2013/02/peoples-assembly-add-your-support/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 16, 2013)

ddraig said:


> so someone so desperate they tried to set themselves alight in a job centre as they were owed £1,100 has been jailed for 20 months!
> even tho he failed!
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-21462731
> "at least he'll get fed in there"


 
Well I've not read the link, and tragic as it is, judge was probably thinking of the other lives he might have endangered maybe


----------



## existentialist (Feb 19, 2013)

And TBF, 20 months was probably a tap on the wrist with a feather:the law is not generally given to kindness where threats to set fire to things are concerned.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2013)

existentialist said:


> And TBF, 20 months was probably a tap on the wrist with a feather:the law is not generally given to kindness where threats to set fire to things are concerned.


 
Unless you're Nick Clegg, or someone of that ilk, in which case you *can* get off lightly.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 20, 2013)

Stephen Hill (fit to work) dies of heart attack (December)

http://www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/ne...d-heart-attack-1-4228295#.USLWccQUmvA.twitter


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)




----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

Daily Mail fuckers are at it again 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...es-Rush-handouts-weeks-theyre-phased-out.html


----------



## smokedout (Feb 25, 2013)

Online rolling picket of workfare exploiters Sue Ryder - details: http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=2121


----------



## Libertad (Feb 25, 2013)

smokedout said:


> Online rolling picket of workfare exploiters Sue Ryder - details: http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=2121


 
They're getting hammered from all sides.


----------



## Libertad (Feb 25, 2013)

Timely editing here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sue_Ryder_Care


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

Britain on Benefits tonight on Channel 4 - 8.00pm (25/2/2013)



> The Disability Living Allowance helps more than three million people lead useful lives. It pays for transport and carers, meaning that disabled people can work and lead independent lives.
> 
> But the benefit bill has to be cut, and the government plans to take more than half a million claimants off DLA. What will that mean for those who depend on it?
> 
> Talking to fellow Paralympians, disabled army veterans and disabled people in work, wheelchair basketball ace Ade Adepitan goes in search of answers, and asks if this hugely ambitious and expensive plan to reassess disabled people has been properly thought through.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Britain on Benefits tonight on Channel 4 - 8.00pm (25/2/2013)


 
reminder bump


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

on now


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

Some people just don't get it



> *Kat Arnsby* ‏@*TheBaffer*
> I have to ask- why can't the guy presenting *Britain On Benefits* do my job? At desk, full wheelchair access, close to public transport. ? ? ?
> 
> *   Expand   *


----------



## weepiper (Feb 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Some people just don't get it


 
Some people think being in a wheelchair is just like being completely able-bodied but sitting down all day. Some people are terminally stupid.


----------



## 8115 (Feb 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Some people just don't get it


 
Er, he has a job anyway I think.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

8115 said:


> Er, he has a job anyway I think.


 
Yes, but people still don't get that you can get DLA whilst working.  This is one of the things Ade should have been totally clear about and explained to idiots like that tweeter


----------



## 8115 (Feb 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yes, but people still don't get that you can get DLA whilst working. This is one of the things Ade should have been totally clear about and explained to idiots like that tweeter


 
Oh ok.  I was confused anyway, as I thought, DLA is not means tested.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 25, 2013)

Libertad said:


> They're getting hammered from all sides.


 
and they're out sort of and very stroppily



> Sue Ryder has reviewed its position with regard to the Department for Work and Pensions’ mandatory back-to-work schemes.
> 
> Our priority at Sue Ryder is providing hospice and long term care in our Health Centres across the UK. We enable this with volunteers in both Care Centres and in our Retail Shops. Overall we have 10,000 volunteers working alongside our staff to support our service users. Of those 10,000 volunteers fewer than 10% are on Government placements.
> 
> ...


 
http://www.facebook.com/SueRyderNational


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

smokedout said:


> and they're out sort of and very stroppily
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/SueRyderNational


 

Maybe they could have some MPs working voluntarily at hospices so they can see some really sick people and hear what they think of them


----------



## Firky (Feb 25, 2013)

From the Daily Mail


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

firky said:


> View attachment 29449 From the Daily Mail


 
Saw that earlier.  DM twats


----------



## Libertad (Feb 25, 2013)

firky said:


> View attachment 29449 From the Daily Mail


 
Possibly qualifies as an action likely to incite disability hate crime.


----------



## BigTom (Feb 26, 2013)

And it turns out that whole article was based on lies from the DWP.

http://ilegal.org.uk/post/18162

the tl;dr is that the 15,000 increase was in 2012 and that 10,000 of those were children and pensioners, so no rush to claim before new benefits are brought in, just the DWP being lying fucks.


----------



## treelover (Feb 26, 2013)

Media watch: RT has been broadcasting a really nasty package on how millions are "happy to live and not work due to UK safety net" including interviews with Hard Right characters like Mark Littlewood, worrying as RT has been very good on poverty issues, this was more like Fox or the BBC.

Meanwhile on the Wright Stuff, Lowri Turner going on about loads of fiddlers with DLA and that people need to be assessed, of course in reality fraud is low and tests are already frequent and robust...

edit, oh, and BBC had saints and scroungers on at the same time, part of a new series of twenty, free speech eh...


----------



## treelover (Feb 26, 2013)

> Benefit Justice Summit – 9th March 11am – ULU, Malet Street, London
> 
> 
> To book your place email benefitjustice@gmail.com or fill in the form on benefitjustice.wordpress.com
> ...


----------



## treelover (Feb 26, 2013)

Oh, and notice no mention of 'welfare' when i set up SWAN, i made the mistake of inc that in the title...


----------



## treelover (Feb 26, 2013)

'An organising meeting called on Saturday 19th January by Defend Council Housing (DCH), Disabled People Against Cuts (DPAC) and Right to Work (RtW) attracted around 40 people representing 32 different campaign groups and union branches to build an umbrella campaign to oppose ConDem attacks on the poor and fight for benefit justice. The idea for the meeting came from a workshop on Welfare and Austerity hosted by DPAC and RtW at the Unite the Resistance conference in London in November.
Anger and desperation are mounting as benefit claimants brace themselves for changes due to come in this April at a time when many are already having to choose between heating and eating. The Bedroom Tax will mean tenants having to find around a £1000 a year to plug the cut in Housing Benefit, something that is simply unaffordable for people also facing a cut in Council Tax Support through what is fast becoming known as the new Poll Tax, and the benefit cap. Disability benefits are under attack on an unprecedented scale with cuts to DLA set to remove essential support from more than 600,000 claimants and the closure of the Independent Living Fund literally returning disabled people to the institutions. Unemployed workers are labelled as skivers and scroungers when the reality is there are no jobs and mandatory work placements are being used to drive down wages. Many low paid workers who will be expected to implement the changes will also be affected by them as research by union PCS has shown.

Campaign groups and actions are multiplying as people are left with no option but to fightback. In Liverpool last week 100 tenants attended a meeting called by Defend Your Homes Against the Bedroom Tax with plans for February to occupy a local housing association that is using housing benefit cuts to push tenants into unpaid work. Local Councils are being targeted with protests called at town halls such as those organised by Camden United for Benefit Justice. A facebook group called Anti Bedroom Tax has over 6000 members, many of whom have never been politically active before. Fuel Poverty Action is linking up with Greater London Pensioners Association and Disabled People Against Cuts on a weekend of action from 15th – 17th February and Boycott Workfare has a week of action planned from 18th – 23rd March.
The Campaign for Benefit Justice is about uniting the growing resistance, overcoming the divide and rule tactics the Government is using to get away with its assault on the 99% and bringing together disabled people, tenants, unemployed workers, trade unions, students, pensioner, single mothers and others to oppose benefit cuts.
We will be holding an event in London in early March with protests planned for budget day. More details to follow.* For more information or to sign up to the statement below please contact* info@defendcouncilhousing.org.uk.
*Campaign for Benefit Justice – Statement*
Cuts in benefits are an unjust attack on the poor. Cuts concentrated on Housing Benefit are already breaking up families, communities and support networks. They will mean poverty, debt and evictions.
We oppose all cuts in benefits and tax credits. We did not cause the banking and economic crisis and will not be scapegoated to pay for it.
We reject false divisions and stigmatisation of people who are low-paid or unpaid.
We will join with local and national campaigns including disabled peoples, tenants, unemployed workers, trade unions, students, pensioner, single mothers and others to oppose benefit cuts
We will support and link up local campaigns.
We oppose all evictions and legal action against those hit by benefit cuts and support all actions taken in defence.'



Heavy SWP inv, just hope it doesn't go belly up, its too important..

they also need to say what they would like in terms of a just benefits system as well, imo..anyway, the campaign as in the title is now a distinct reality..


----------



## savoloysam (Feb 28, 2013)

https://twitter.com/DWP_Derbyshire

One of the senior DWP managers trying to make a name for himself. My friend at DWP says his local policies have meant thousands of extra sanctions.

Tweet him your thoughts.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 4, 2013)

I'm working my way through this combined report from the Baptist Union of Great Britain, the Methodist Church, the Church of Scotland and the United Reformed Church. I'm not one for God-botherers at all but actually it's excellent.



> The belief that families are choosing to live on welfare as a ’lifestyle choice‘ is common.
> The ’lifestyle‘ which people living on welfare experience is one with a very low income,
> on average less happy, and one with poorer than average health for themselves and their
> children. It would appear to be a strange choice to make.


 


> The term “generations of worklessness” deliberately implies laziness,
> and suggests an entire family sitting for their whole lives in front of the
> television. It is important to note that the statistics for those who have
> “never worked” will include people who cannot work due to disability or
> ...


 


> A comfortable story which assigns blame to
> those living in poverty has become easy to
> believe because it is so widespread and often
> repeated. Yet there is danger in comfort. The
> ...


 
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/files/truth_and_lies_report_final.pdf


----------



## ddraig (Mar 5, 2013)

thanks for that!


----------



## Cloo (Mar 6, 2013)

Read and support to help stop ESA http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/esa-sos-starting-gun.html?spref=tw

This campaigner has already had considerable success, so she needs all the help she can get.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 9, 2013)

a Cardiff Against the Cuts Councillor told to 'get a life' and 'get a job' by a Labour Councillor
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/cardif...paigner-to-get-a-job-in-email-91466-32917113/


> Responding to an email Ms Caldwell sent to all councillors, Coun Michael told the Llandaff resident: “Get a job, you obviously have too much time on your hands.” He goes on to suggest she “gets a hobby that does not involve sending daft and incorrect emails to councillors”.
> Ms Caldwell, who founded the Green Dragon Preservation Society, said she was asking Labour to rethink the proposed Splott Pool and Cardiff Riding School closures.
> 
> Using his official council email account, Coun Michael replied: “Learn how a council and council finance works before making daft amendments to a budget process you don’t try to understand.
> “Stop sending out e-mails in the name of a society that even though it has more members than pLIED councillors, seems to be a figment of your fertile imagination.”


campaigner accepted written apology


----------



## treelover (Mar 9, 2013)

appalling, no awareness...


----------



## weepiper (Mar 13, 2013)

Shelter have started a petition calling on mortgage lenders to allow private landlords to rent to tenants on Housing Benefit

http://england.shelter.org.uk/campa...ok&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=promo130313


----------



## treelover (Mar 15, 2013)

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UsSPG86hslk?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



Giles Fraser really sticking it to Portillo on This Week, who has reverted back to type, supports parish relief, etc...

can't seem to embed this...


----------



## treelover (Mar 15, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UsSPG86hslk


----------



## treelover (Mar 15, 2013)

> This statement was sent to one of our group member who forwarded it to us, we are unable to confirm details within - but alarm bells are ringing !!!
> 
> "I work within the Department for Work and Pensions so please don't use my name as it could cost me my job.
> 
> ...


----------



## ddraig (Mar 15, 2013)

needs to be like this



treelover said:


> <iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UsSPG86hslk?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 15, 2013)

Christ.

E2a - Christ was at treelover's post btw.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 15, 2013)

There's been a programme working with some of the famliies identified under these criteria that has completely failed, but nothing on that about permanent benefits being stopped and getting payments in kind or kids being taken into care, I would want to see confirmation of a lot of this before I give it any credibility tbh. They couldn't bring pre-pay cards in for claimants without new legislation, and there's maximum 3 year JSA sanctions, how are they going to do this stuff without new legislation? I don't think they can, but ianal of course.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 15, 2013)

BigTom said:


> There's been a programme working with some of the famliies identified under these criteria that has completely failed, but nothing on that about permanent benefits being stopped and getting payments in kind or kids being taken into care, I would want to see confirmation of a lot of this before I give it any credibility tbh. They couldn't bring pre-pay cards in for claimants without new legislation, and there's maximum 3 year JSA sanctions, how are they going to do this stuff without new legislation? I don't think they can, but ianal of course.


 
It's the way the wind's blowing though. And the govt have already proved themselves quite capable of introducing new legislation to get IDS out of the shite WRT the work programme.

TBH, I reckon if the idea of pre paid benefit cards was mooted enough people would support it to make it a goer.


----------



## andy84 (Mar 19, 2013)

> Yesterday, Hull councillors Gary Wareing, Dean Kirk and Gill Kennett, the ‘Hull 3′ were victimised for their principled refusal to vote for the budget where cuts will throw 600 people out of work and further reduce services across the city.
> Gary and Dean were ‘indefinitely suspended’ from the Labour group, Gill suspended for three months.
> Such action for defiance of the whip is not obligatory on councils. Other councillors elsewhere in the past, such as in Broxtowe council in 2012, have not faced disciplinary action for sticking to their principles and voting against cuts in defiance of the majority of their Labour group.
> ...
> ...



http://councillorsagainstcuts.org/2...misation-of-hull-councillors-who-oppose-cuts/


----------



## andy84 (Mar 19, 2013)

Did I mention there's a fundraising gig for the Save Lewisham Hospital Campaign this thursday at Goldsmiths Student Union this thursday?

...linkage: https://www.facebook.com/events/337843596327486/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

*The myth of the "welfare scrounger"*


http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/03/myth-welfare-scrounger



> A little noticed piece of DWP research shows that four out of five claimants spent at least three quarters of the past four years off unemployment benefit.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 21, 2013)

Don't know if this has been put up.  Apologies if it has

http://www.freshties.com/wp/?p=14855


----------



## treelover (Mar 21, 2013)

> The UK Crimestoppers organisation launched a campaign last year against benefit fraud, complete with a poster of angry screaming people (‘the public’) and the caption “WEL-UN-FARE – don’t let benefit fraud make you mad.”


 
from the article, i didn't know about that, who in that organisation made that decision to run that campaign?, very political..

btw, great research, well done Kent university social policy team,

can people repost on FB sites

off to ring KU..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 21, 2013)

treelover said:


> from the article, i didn't know about that, who in that organisation made that decision to run that campaign?, very political..
> 
> btw, great research, well done Kent university social policy team,
> 
> ...


 
Can't say I ever saw the posters myself.  Wonder if they were pulled?


----------



## treelover (Mar 21, 2013)

Just rang the charity who sponsored the research, they have just stopped their campaigning arm due to cutbacks


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 21, 2013)

treelover said:


> Just rang the charity who sponsored the research, they have just stopped their campaigning arm due to cutbacks


 
FFS


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 22, 2013)

Esther McVey's a nasty piece of work

http://wheresthebenefit.blogspot.co.uk/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 22, 2013)

Meacher, Hoban, Spartacus and ATOS



> *This week something happened which is without precedent in my 40 years of Parliamentary experience.   On an issue of acute public importance where there had already been a Parliamentary debate revealing a total cross-party consensus solidly opposed to government policy, a Departmental minister then refused to see a delegation to discuss the matter further and to consider necessary changes in procedure.  * This issue, the work capability assessments carried out by Atos Healthcare, has been a top-line matter on the political agenda for many months now.   I had therefore written to Iain Duncan Smith on 31 January asking him to receive a delegation from some of the key campaigning and analytical groups (I had, regrettably, to restrict this to three).   I heard nothing for more than 5 weeks and therefore put down a Parliamentary Question on the Commons Order Paper asking when he proposed to answer my letter.   As a result I got an immediate reply from Mark Hoban, the junior minister dealing with Atos matters, saying “my current diary requirements mean I am unable to accept your invitation at this time”.   That is simply civil service-speak for a flat No.   But I have taken the matter further.


 
cont'd...

http://www.michaelmeacher.info/webl...frit-of-seeing-delegation-on-atos-healthcare/


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 23, 2013)

Meanwhile, ex social worker forced to skip dive and beg after benefits sanction.... http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/22/jobseekers-story-benefit-sanctions


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Meanwhile, ex social worker forced to skip dive and beg after benefits sanction.... http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/22/jobseekers-story-benefit-sanctions


 
Meant to post that last night.   

Typical example that should be shown to people who call everyone on benefits "scroungers"


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 23, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Meant to post that last night.
> 
> Typical example that should be shown to people who call everyone on benefits "scroungers"


He doesn't look exactly spry enough for skip diving either - sometimes you have to leg it to avoid getting caught, and you can end up with a criminal record.


----------



## savoloysam (Mar 23, 2013)

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/iain-duncan-smith-is-a-lying-bastard-2/


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 24, 2013)

savoloysam said:


> http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/iain-duncan-smith-is-a-lying-bastard-2/


Iain Dunked-in Shit's behaviour is another fine example of ministers using the false distinction between operational and executive responsibility in order to insulate themselves from any fallout from their policies. They can claim "I'm the minister, I don't have operational control".
Older posters may remember Michael Howard making the same argument almost 20 years ago (and getting asked the same question 13 times by Jeremy Paxman!) with regard to his Prison Services director, Derek Lewis, and the results that Howard's own policies had reaped.


----------



## treelover (Mar 24, 2013)

> According to Lord Freud, the banker-turned-welfare-minister: *“The fact that those in work will come under the ambit of the JobCentre Plus for the first time as a result of universal credit gives the government radical new opportunities.”* The ComDems have learned their lessons from New Labour in the spin of framing retrogressive steps as ‘radical’. They are boldly going where no poverty profiteer has gone before. However, the government is well aware that the usual divisive rhetoric about benefits robbing ‘the taxpayer’ will be more difficult to direct against people who are already working and paying taxes. Also, many of the workers they aim to harass are organised, belong to unions and have access to resources such as free legal advice. The Cait Reilly case upset IDS so much he threw a spectacular hissy fit. There’ll be many more challenges if the DWP insists on sticking its nose where it’s not meant to go.
> Therefore, the DWP and Policy Exchange are asking for suggestions on how to widen the range of their nets to self-employed, part-time and low-paid workers. In a document with the catchy title of _“Extending labour market interventions to in-work claimants – call for ideas”_, the DWP requests feedback from _“employers, behavioural economists, social psychologists, think tanks, welfare to work providers, academics, charities, application designers and those at the sharp end of delivering existing services”_. Of course, this call-out doesn’t include those at ‘the sharp end’ of DWP schemes
> 
> http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=2347
> ...


----------



## weepiper (Mar 25, 2013)

Chief of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations lays into IDS in the Herald

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comme...le-and-arrogant-the-real-face-of-ids.20565802


----------



## 8115 (Mar 29, 2013)

Someone suggested this, not sure who or where. But is it worth starting a Universal Credit thread, for information and support either here or in the protest forum? Only I think it'll be here quicker than you know and I reckon forewarned is forearmed. I don't want to start it  but I reckon it could be useful.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 29, 2013)

8115 said:


> Someone suggested this, not sure who or where. But is it worth starting a Universal Credit thread, for information and support either here or in the protest forum? Only I think it'll be here quicker than you know and I reckon forewarned is forearmed. I don't want to start it  but I reckon it could be useful.


 
Definitely needs its own one as it'll just get buried in ATOS/Welfare Reforms/BT/IDS is a cunt threads


----------



## 8115 (Mar 29, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Definitely needs its own one as it'll just get buried in ATOS/Welfare Reforms/BT/IDS is a cunt threads


 
Yeah and it seems like it's going to be a right sh*tstorm.  It's a radical change and the timescale between pilots and implementation is quite short.


----------



## 8115 (Mar 29, 2013)

Actually that's a bit pessamistic.  It has the potential to be a sh*tstorm I should say.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 29, 2013)

Agree, a thread for UC would be good - news today, 3/4 of the UC trials have been delayed and won't start until July:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21972026


----------



## 8115 (Mar 29, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Agree, a thread for UC would be good - news today, 3/4 of the UC trials have been delayed and won't start until July:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21972026


 


> The welfare system is like a giant jelly in that if you press down and try and make a change in one area, something else that you may not be expecting pops up.


 
  Political quote of the year


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Agree, a thread for UC would be good - news today, 3/4 of the UC trials have been delayed and won't start until July:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21972026


 
So, just like has been said since the slap-headed fuckpig first announced UC, they still don't know if the systems they're using are robust enough to run 24/7, or even if they're actually scalable beyond a handful of pilots. What a bunch of money-wasting shitcunts.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 29, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, just like has been said since the slap-headed fuckpig first announced UC, they still don't know if the systems they're using are robust enough to run 24/7, or even if they're actually scalable beyond a handful of pilots. What a bunch of money-wasting shitcunts.


 
It's going to be a disaster. What happens to someone on JSA who gets to be one of the first to go on Universal Credit, and then they move out of the pilot area because they get a job, but it's still a low-paying job so they need housing benefit and tax credit topups? It's only the 'easy' straightforward single unemployed no dependents who're getting put onto it at first. It's going to be a huge headache.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 29, 2013)

weepiper said:


> It's going to be a disaster. What happens to someone on JSA who gets to be one of the first to go on Universal Credit, and then they move out of the pilot area because they get a job, but it's still a low-paying job so they need housing benefit and tax credit topups? It's only the 'easy' straightforward single unemployed no dependents who're getting put onto it at first. It's going to be a huge headache.


 
or even ends up relocating because of bedroom tax?


----------



## savoloysam (Mar 29, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, just like has been said since the slap-headed fuckpig first announced UC, they still don't know if the systems they're using are robust enough to run 24/7, or even if they're actually scalable beyond a handful of pilots. What a bunch of money-wasting shitcunts.


 
They just need to throw Capita a few extra million pounds.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2013)

savoloysam said:


> They just need to throw Capita a few extra million pounds.


 

Yep, that's worked so well in the past.


----------



## Libertad (Mar 29, 2013)

Drunken Smith must be this >< far from a complete nervous breakdown, only his god can save him now.


----------



## elbows (Mar 30, 2013)

I thought this piece by Mark Steel was pretty effective for what it was.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...nd-all-the-money-isnt-it-obvious-8553643.html


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 30, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Drunken Smith must be this >< far from a complete nervous breakdown, only his god can save him now.


 
I'd like to think so but I fear he lacks the awareness, sensitivity or capacity for self doubt that might make him vulnerable to a breakdown. One can always hope though.


----------



## 8115 (Mar 30, 2013)

elbows said:


> I thought this piece by Mark Steel was pretty effective for what it was.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...nd-all-the-money-isnt-it-obvious-8553643.html


 
That is a really interesting article in my view.  The point he makes about the dialogue now being that "the poor are richer than the rich", is exactly the subtext to a lot of the things being said and done, but it's not made explicit.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Mar 30, 2013)

...nice cartoon.


----------



## DownwardDog (Mar 30, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ...nice cartoon.


 
What the hell does it mean? IDS is a Kaled? Or Pontius Pilate? Or Both? What's the blue thing?


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

Oh, 'Bomber Dogs' back....


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

DownwardDog said:


> What the hell does it mean? IDS is a Kaled? Or Pontius Pilate? Or Both? What's the blue thing?


 
The blue thing is a Fat Cats(businessman/boss of gas companies) backside, the audience isn't you and the Tory boys..


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 30, 2013)

TBF, I didn't really get the cartoon either - Why's there a snapped in half dalek on the floor? I can see it says make your own universal dalek on the box and that must be a reference to universal credit, but for the life of me I can't see what universal credit's got to do with a dalek. And what are all them crosses on the hill?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Mar 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> TBF, I didn't really get the cartoon either - Why's there a snapped in half dalek on the floor? I can see it says make your own universal dalek on the box and that must be a reference to universal credit, but for the life of me I can't see what universal credit's got to do with a dalek. And what are all them crosses on the hill?


 
Reference to Pontius Pilate and Jesus.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 30, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Reference to Pontius Pilate and Jesus.


 
Well yeah, but what's that got to do with the UC? And what have daleks got to do with jesus? Or the UC? It's fuckin greek to me.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Mar 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Well yeah, but what's that got to do with the UC? And what have daleks got to do with jesus? Or the UC? It's fuckin greek to me.


 
Jesus was a timelord.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2013)

Came across this one.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Came across this one.


 
That's more like it - I get that one


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> That's more like it - I get that one


 

Same as.  I was looking at that other one last night and trying to figure out what the dalek was. 

I need simple


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

"And what are all them crosses on the hill?


The crosses are for all the people who have died as a consequence of all the various welfare reforms, ATOS medicals, cuts, etc, many from suicide(see Calum's list) and which the BBC refuses to cover as they say "they are not connected"

Rowson is a great cartoonist, not sure about the Dalek, if you go on the site lots of people spend ages decoding them, its very popular...

AH, I think the Dalek indicates the collapse of UC's implementation


----------



## treelover (Mar 30, 2013)

Anyway, great to see benefit issues with such a high profile, wasn't always that way...


----------



## goldenecitrone (Mar 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> AH, I think the Dalek indicates the collapse of UC's implementation


 
Or Dunked-in-Shit's plans to exterminate the poor, the sick and the elderly.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 30, 2013)

Bit fuckin tenuous then. He's had to write on the dalek thing "universal dalek" and then that box under the table has got something about sanction targets written on it - Now to my mind, the whole point of a cartoon is that the cartoonist shouldn't need to write bits on his/her cartoon explaining what they're supposed to represent. After having Rowson's effort explained to me, I'm mildly relieved to learn that it wasn't so much that I didn't get it, but rather, that as a piece of satire, it was a bit crap.

I agree with the sentiment though.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Mar 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Bit fuckin tenuous then. He's had to write on the dalek thing "universal dalek" and then that box under the table has got something about sanction targets written on it - Now to my mind, the whole point of a cartoon is that the cartoonist shouldn't need to write bits on his/her cartoon explaining what they're supposed to represent. After having Rowson's effort explained to me, I'm mildly relieved to learn that it wasn't so much that I didn't get it, but rather, as a piece of satire, it was a bit crap.
> 
> I agree with the sentiment though.


 
Always preferred Steve Bell myself.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2013)

*1,200 people in for 9 jobs (DFS)*

*A SOFA shop that advertised just nine jobs received applications from more than 1,200 people.*


http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/388015/1-200-people-in-for-9-jobs


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## DownwardDog (Mar 31, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Bit fuckin tenuous then. He's had to write on the dalek thing "universal dalek" and then that box under the table has got something about sanction targets written on it - Now to my mind, the whole point of a cartoon is that the cartoonist shouldn't need to write bits on his/her cartoon explaining what they're supposed to represent. After having Rowson's effort explained to me, I'm mildly relieved to learn that it wasn't so much that I didn't get it, but rather, that as a piece of satire, it was a bit crap.
> 
> I agree with the sentiment though.


 
The Daleks were created when the nasty war like Thals attacked the peaceful Dals/Kaleds. The Dals/Kaleds became mutated by nuclear shit and all went mad and started driving round inside Daleks. So the metaphor is obviously Thals = Tories and Dals = people on benefits and Daleks = either mobility scooters or Vauxhall Corsas.


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## treelover (Mar 31, 2013)

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/201...-say-hammersmith-and-fulham-council/#comments


Hammersmith/Fulham Council to tie doing voluntary work, etc to right to social housing

This is what N/L with Caroline Flint was planning and Manchester City Council, a Labour council are undertaking...

increasingly I think its time for a new left party...

btw, a btl commenter notes he has noticed a large rise in private companies offering eviction services, ffs...


----------



## treelover (Mar 31, 2013)

www.evicthem.

here is one of them..link broken, add .com


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## treelover (Mar 31, 2013)

http://sites.scran.ac.uk/redclyde/redclyde/rc067.htm

*What the People Sleep Upon, 1904*

*A paper delivered at the Congress of the Sanitary Institute in the Glasgow University, July 1904*


A very interesting report on what bedding consisted of in Glasgow in 1904 and the amount of bacteria contained wherein, back to that if things carry on...

be good to post this on benefit FB sites..


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## ddraig (Mar 31, 2013)

the lovely Edwina Curry says people aren't starving in britain
they must either be buying fags and lottery tickets instead or it is spurious evil lefties making it up
https://audioboo.fm/boos/508259-edw...-can-t-afford-food?playlist_direction=forward
or can't afford food

"seriously"


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## audiotech (Mar 31, 2013)

Curry's advice a few years back to older people at risk from the cold in winter was for them to wear woolly hats indoors.

And here's a report of a 63 year old man, who the police state died of kidney failure and starvation after an assessment undertaken by Atos. who declared him "fit for work".


----------



## treelover (Apr 1, 2013)




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## _angel_ (Apr 1, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Curry's advice a few years back to older people at risk from the cold in winter was for them to wear woolly hats indoors.
> 
> And here's a report of a 63 year old man, who the police state died of kidney failure and starvation after an assessment undertaken by Atos. who declared him "fit for work".


Cancel their second holidays as well wasn't it?


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## 8ball (Apr 1, 2013)

audiotech said:


> And here's a report of a 63 year old man, who the police state died of kidney failure and starvation after an assessment undertaken by Atos. who declared him "fit for work".


 
I do fear that this list is going to accelerate in lengthening after the changes that have just gone through.

However, obviously people die all the time and some will die even if they _are_ fit for work at the time of assessment - hopefully someone out there is keeping decent comparative stats to deny the Government any easy get-out of this kind..


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## treelover (Apr 1, 2013)

'Calum's List' is documenting deaths linked to the loss of benefits/ATOS, etc,  not sure about stats...


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## 8115 (Apr 1, 2013)

I think getting any decent statistics would probably be a nightmare.


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## BigTom (Apr 2, 2013)

8ball said:


> I do fear that this list is going to accelerate in lengthening after the changes that have just gone through.
> 
> However, obviously people die all the time and some will die even if they _are_ fit for work at the time of assessment - hopefully someone out there is keeping decent comparative stats to deny the Government any easy get-out of this kind..


 
nope.

You will hear two figures:

73 deaths/week. This is the total number of people on ESA who die each week, and should never be used to illustrate how many deaths are caused/lives shortened by the failure of ESA to correctly assess people, as this includes all the people in the support group.

32 deaths/week. This is the number of deaths of people in the WRAG. It shouldn't be used either but is the best figure we have. Really this needs to be expressed as a death rate and compared alongside the death rate for the general population but even that isn't getting you anywhere near an honest figure because you'd expect the death rate for people in the WRAG to be higher even if the test was perfect.

The figure we really want but they don't collect is what happens to people who are kicked off IB/ESA onto JSA, because you could compare the death rate here with the death rate of the JSA population and get a reasonable figure. 

But all of that only asks and has the potential to answer one question, which is whether there is a difference in the death rate between those on ESA and those in other groups. It can't answer whether the approach taken (eg: to split applicants into three groups with differing level of support/conditionality and payments; whether the work-focused approach is right or not; whether the support/conditionality that is received in each group is any good).
So it could easily be possible that the three way split and work focused approach is right, and that the test correctly assesses the level of support that is required, but that the support that is given is not the right support.
Or it could be that the test was working perfectly, but was testing the wrong things.

It also can't be easily compared to different systems. Really the question you want to ask is something like "Does the WCA correctly assess the level of support/ability to work of an applicant?".
Clearly if you can see a higher death rate then this would suggest that something is wrong.
But to know whether the higher death rate is as a result of the WCA wrongly assessing people, leading them to not getting the support they require/having conditionality which actively worsens a condition, or as the result of something else, you'd need to imagine an alternative universe which we can't do.

There may well be space for designing trials to test this - it certainly seems like they kind of thing that would lend itself well to a randomised controlled trial, with different tests and seeing what the outcomes are, but you'd need enough people with specific (or close enough) conditions to form big enough groups to make them statistically significant.
You can't easily compare things to a different country, though it might be worth doing this alongside something else.

All in all answering that question is probably not best done on the basis of showing a higher death rate. I think the minimum 20% failure rate of the process is the best macro level evidence (50% appeal their decision, 40% of appeals succeed. This gives a minimum as some people won't appeal, it also disguises the reality a bit as nobody put in the support group will appeal, so of those who might appeal, something like 50/66 do with 40/66 appeals succeeding, iirc around 1/3rd of people get put straight into the support group).


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## elbows (Apr 2, 2013)

So its 'depressingly predictable outrage' and 'headline seeking rubbish' according to Osborne. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21998784

Now thats what I call depressingly predictable


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 2, 2013)

> *The Truth Behind the Newspaper Lies: 5000 People With Cancer Declared Fit For Work*
> 
> *http://www.afteratos.com/the-truth-...er-declared-fit-for-work-boasts-grant-shapps/*


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## Cupid Stunt (Apr 3, 2013)

I wonder if these cuts are simply revenge for the attempted mansion tax ( =bedroom tax) council tax benefit losses =Mp's expenses, etc.

I am really starting to believe that these toffs are thoroughly enjoying all this and don't give a toss because they know the people they are destroying would never vote for them anyway.

For the first time in my life I have felt personally insulted by an MP (IDS) with his £53 pw horseshit.
you can see they are laughing at it all, it's just a huge whizz to them,
like a public school beating administered to the 'plebs' arse cheeks instead of theirs.


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## Frances Lengel (Apr 3, 2013)

Cupid Stunt said:


> I wonder if these cuts are simply revenge for the attempted mansion tax ( =bedroom tax) council tax benefit losses =Mp's expenses, etc.
> 
> I am really starting to believe that these toffs *are thoroughly enjoying all this* and don't give a toss because they know the people they are destroying would never vote for them anyway.
> 
> ...


 
They are - Cameron and Osborne are anyway. To be fair to IDS, he's a nutter who probably does believe in what he's doing.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 3, 2013)

New bod heading up Universal Credit

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/ent...ead-up-universal-credit/#.UVxk56l6Dgo.twitter


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## youngian (Apr 4, 2013)

Shitbag Osborne at it again-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22025035

He's supposed to be the chancellor for fuck sake, the man whose job it is to be steeped in dull statistics and empirical reports.


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## treelover (Apr 4, 2013)

Surprised that a lot of L/P' MP's and even front bench, Balls, etc are going ballistic over this, reckon they were stung over the ferocious reaction to them abstaining on the Workfare bill.


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## elbows (Apr 4, 2013)

Ballistic over what, the Osborne Philpott welfare comments? Balls has already called them a cynical act of a desperate chancellor.


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## elbows (Apr 4, 2013)

Oh dear


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 4, 2013)

elbows said:


> Oh dear


 

Probably use the same excuse IDS did when using disabled loo


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## weepiper (Apr 5, 2013)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/05/goverment-loaded-language-welfare



> Fraud, which accounts for less than 1% of the overall benefits bill, was mentioned 85 times in the press releases, while it was not used at all in the final year of Labour, which was itself accused of sometimes using intemperate language on the issue.
> In the 25 speeches by DWP ministers on welfare over the year, "dependency" was mentioned 38 times, while "addiction" occurred 41 times and "entrenched" on 15 occasions. A comparison of 25 speeches on the subject by Labour ministers saw the words used, respectively, seven times, not at all, and once.


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## treelover (Apr 5, 2013)

Certainly was under Blair..


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 5, 2013)

weepiper said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/05/goverment-loaded-language-welfare


 
Nice find. Found a similar article recently about disabled people.

This needs to be publicised more widely, and I found the below figures somewhere else and put them up on another thread. Unfortunately, these threads move so fast, I can never find the posts again 



> Some charities warn that such language fuels a distorted portrayal of benefits in parts of the media, which in turn perpetuates widespread myths about the welfare system. A YouGov poll for the TUC last year found that, *on average, people think 41% of the welfare budget supports the unemployed – the true amount is 3% – and believe the fraud rate is 27%, as against the government's estimate of 0.7%.*


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 5, 2013)

Big jump here as well



> Analysis of language in the media a similar picture. In the past year, the term *"benefit cheat"* was used 442 times in national newspapers, *an increase of almost two-thirds o*n the 12 months before the coalition took power.


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## treelover (Apr 5, 2013)

> http://www.freshties.com/wp/?p=14855
> report here
> 
> benefit stigma in Britain
> ...


 
Minnie, do you mean this one?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 5, 2013)

treelover said:


> Minnie, do you mean this one?


 
Ah, the freshties was one of them

Also stuck up the one of the amount of people who think the fraud figures are much higher, but can't remember what website that was


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 6, 2013)

Came across this in The Telegraph



> bob228
> Yesterday 05:32 AM
> Benefits fraud appears to be running at over60% not the 0.07 % you claim


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## BigTom (Apr 6, 2013)

A comment on the basis of 900k people getting better before being assessed by ATOS?

Telegraph almost managed a decent article today: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9974373/Welfare-reform-53-a-week...-You-do-the-maths.html

About living on £53/week with an example, explicitly rejects the philpott/benefits link, but then spends the second half of the article talking about how welfare needs to be reformed because it doesn't pay to work 
with an example of someone who got promoted, couldn't live on the wage because they lost too much in benefits, so asked to be demoted. Which apparently is a reason to reform (ie cut) benefits


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## treelover (Apr 6, 2013)

http://www.facebook.com/Justice4Jobseekers/posts/364416866996024


Guy who runs Justice4jobseekers F/B site banned from local jobcentre for posting about them on his site, allies going ballistic, not sure which JC, wtf..


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## ddraig (Apr 6, 2013)

shocking!
no link?


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## Greebo (Apr 6, 2013)

treelover said:


> http://www.facebook.com/Justice4Jobseekers/posts/364416866996024
> 
> 
> Guy who runs Justice4jobseekers F/B site banned from local jobcentre for posting about them on his site, allies going ballistic, not sure which JC, wtf..


FFS!


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## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2013)

Useful article in the Guardian with facts and figures, based on work from the Rowntree Foundation:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/06/welfare-britain-facts-myths


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## treelover (Apr 8, 2013)

Guy on FB site mentions that he has been sanctioned for not accepting a 10 hrs a week job 200 miles away, crazy if true..


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## BigTom (Apr 8, 2013)

treelover said:


> Guy on FB site mentions that he has been sanctioned for not accepting a 10 hrs a week job 200 miles away, crazy if true..


 
60 minutes travel, will be 90 minutes travel under universal credit. That's the maximum distance they can make you apply for a job, don't know if that's different for accepting one but I wouldn't have thought so - he should definitely ask for a review and appeal that + go to CAB. Far from the oddest sanction I've heard, would not disbelieve it for a second, turning down a job offer? blatant opportunity for a dick of an advisor to make a referral and hopefully win that easter egg!


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## Greebo (Apr 8, 2013)

treelover said:


> Guy on FB site mentions that he has been sanctioned for not accepting a 10 hrs a week job 200 miles away, crazy if true..


Iniquitous.  Somebody was either on a power trip or in a vile mood, I reckon.


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## weepiper (Apr 11, 2013)

Front page story in my local rag today

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-e...uts-edinburgh-families-to-lose-2170-1-2886806



> Councillor Ricky Henderson, convener of health, social care and housing at the City Chambers, said the welfare shake-up was taking money “directly out of the pockets of the poorest people in Edinburgh”.
> He said: “By definition, people on benefits are at the poorer end of society, and I would go further and say that not only is this taking money from the poorest families, but that this money won’t be [going] into local economies.
> “The evidence is that poorer people tend to spend a greater proportion of their income locally because they don’t have flats in Marbella and can’t jet off to Las Vegas.
> “Some of this money would have gone to the council in rent, but most of the other money would be spent in shops and services.”
> On the bedroom tax, Cllr Henderson questioned whether it would be “morally right” to evict a council tenant “whose only offence was that the government had moved the goalposts”.


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## treelover (Apr 11, 2013)

F/Times (paywall i think) has an front page article which shows that those in the Northern areas are losing as much as five time more money than those in the affluent South, it describes how local economies will be devastated as the massive range of benefit cuts reduce spending power in poorer communities.

btw, good for the FT is publishing this...

btw, this is happening, in the poorer end of town here, even cheap clothes/shoes, etc shops are closing...


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## treelover (Apr 11, 2013)

Big foodbank opening in Billingham...


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## treelover (Apr 12, 2013)

http://www.shu.ac.uk/mediacentre/first-evidence-overall-impact-welfare-reform-across-britain


link to the Important new research by Sheffield Hallam University on the regional impact of the benefit cuts(see above post)


as a perhaps ironic aside, Professor Steve Fothergill who lead on the research, was also the guy who provided NL with the research on IB take up in de-industrialised areas(eg many redundant ex miners in merthr Tydfill had been signed off onto IB) which (not what naïve Fothergill had expected) led to the abolishing of IB and the intro of ESA.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 12, 2013)

Latest insight into Tory thinking

http://trueblueviews.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/unmasked-is-meena-britains-worst-scrounger/


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## treelover (Apr 12, 2013)

That site is a spoof, isn't it?


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## yield (Apr 12, 2013)

treelover said:


> F/Times (paywall i think) has an front page article which shows that those in the Northern areas are losing as much as five time more money than those in the affluent South, it describes how local economies will be devastated as the massive range of benefit cuts reduce spending power in poorer communities.
> 
> btw, good for the FT is publishing this...
> 
> btw, this is happening, in the poorer end of town here, even cheap clothes/shoes, etc shops are closing...


This one?
Welfare cuts widen UK prosperity gap
Financial Times. 10th April


> The findings of the FT's investigation – the first to examine the local economic and business consequences of the reforms – suggest any impact will be most acute in areas outside Tory strongholds.


Well done Lib Dems.


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## ffsear (Apr 15, 2013)

Its shocking how bad we have it now in this country!


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## treelover (Apr 15, 2013)

yawn, that old carnard,. I think you will find many people here pay into global charities and some campaign on global poverty, etc..


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## weepiper (Apr 15, 2013)

ffsear said:


> Its shocking how bad we have it now in this country!


 
Fuck off.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 15, 2013)

Seconded weeps.


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## Greebo (Apr 15, 2013)

treelover said:


> <snip>many people here pay into global charities and some campaign on global poverty, etc..


Including those of us who are on benefits.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2013)

ffsear said:


> Its shocking how bad we have it now in this country!


 
There's always some idiot  who pulls the old "but they're so much worse off in (add name of latest disaster area)".

You may have heard of a concept call *relative* poverty. That is, poverty as measured against the state of development of a nation or polity, if you haven't, please try to acquaint yourself with the concept, as then you can avoid trotting out canards and making yourself look foolish.
Relative poverty is the best measure by which we (as a society) can gauge whether social programmes produce a net social benefit - that is, do the bread and the circuses cost society more or less than they save it. Read some history. I'd recommend anything about the bread riots in Imperial Rome.

Oh, and we're not a country, we're a nation, you arse.


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## treelover (Apr 16, 2013)

> Some charities, far from organising legal challenges to benefits cuts, have been joining up to a DWP organised group – the Disability Action Alliance (DAA) – headed by Disability Rights UK. The DAA claims that it is “committed to making a difference to the lives of disabled people by designing and delivering innovative changes”.
> There’s no doubt that the DWP’s slashing of benefits and its vicious anti-claimant propaganda campaigns are making a huge difference to the lives of disabled people, but it’s surprising that any charity would want to be associated with the people behind them.
> 
> So far, only the TUC ‘s Disabled People’s Committee has openly refused to join DAA (members only) saying that it will not be “conned into becoming part of the problem rather than part of the solution”.
> ...


 
latest on the co-option/astro-turfing of disability charities, shameful and cynical but very very cunning...


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## treelover (Apr 16, 2013)

can someone put this on the benefit sites on FB, I don't post on there..


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## audiotech (Apr 16, 2013)

"The benefit cap: Popular, but ill-judged and supported by lies."


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## audiotech (Apr 16, 2013)

Here's the UK rank in the world of 'how "generous" unemployment benefit is for the first year after a worker loses their job'. Rank #46


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## smokedout (Apr 16, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Here's the UK rank in the world of 'how "generous" unemployment benefit is for the first year after a worker loses their job'. Rank #46


 
except those figure are pre-euro and only measure a small factor of unemployment benefit spending and therefore the claims made are complete bullshit (like most of the rest of the shit on that blog)


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## audiotech (Apr 17, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Front page story in my local rag today
> 
> http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-e...uts-edinburgh-families-to-lose-2170-1-2886806


 
The goalpost analogy is a good one and IDS has just two weeks to avoid a Judicial Review on this whole pathetic saga. Lete's trust it's a Geoff Hurst moment: "They think it's all over? It is now!


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## audiotech (Apr 17, 2013)

smokedout said:


> except those figure are pre-euro and only measure a small factor of unemployment benefit spending and therefore the claims made are complete bullshit (like most of the rest of the shit on that blog)


 
Well, I never thought for a moment it would be fully transparent, but they do point to an IMF report on the issue that they cite as a source (not read it), but I expect it to follow a similar pattern. Nevertheless, it still indicates what a set of cunts politicians are generally.


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## smokedout (Apr 17, 2013)

yes the IMF report is based on figures from 1995-2005, and according to the link in the post the table is based on figures from 2000

also using the amount paid in benefits as a percentage of average wage says nothing about unemployment benefit generosity really, in lots of the countries mentioned benefits are time limited to a year or are contribution based only schemes, in others words yes the rate of benefits may be slightly higher but barely anyone is entitled to them.  I suspect the report also misses that housing benefits are not included in UK unemployment benefits, but housing costs are built into a lot of other systems.

thing is, UK benefit rates are not generous at all compared to comparable economies, but ludicrous conclusions from years old data - on a post calling for the truth about benefits  only make that harder to point out

(not having a go at you for posting btw, just sick of seeing stories on that blog all over facebook and when you dig into them they are complete bollocks, he was the one pushing all the ben fellows conspiracy nonsense during paedogate, and recently behaved disgustingly on another atos related story which turned out not to be true)


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## audiotech (Apr 20, 2013)

Try this one for size. The file the DWP doesn't want you to see.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 20, 2013)

> *Kandice Pieterse* ‏@*KandicePieterse*  17 Apr
> Last Tuesday my father was deemed by DWP as "fit to work". He died on Thursday of terminal cancer. #*discuss*


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## Greebo (Apr 20, 2013)

I'd like to be shocked and surprised by that, but I'm not.


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## audiotech (Apr 20, 2013)

Benefit Rates for 2013 - 2014


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## UhOhSeven (Apr 22, 2013)

As a newcomer to these parts, I thought it might not be a bad idea to read up on some interesting-looking threads.

Last night, I read this one from start to finish over several hours.

Christ.


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## treelover (Apr 23, 2013)

Good for you, do you mean shocking in the severity of the cuts, level of harassment, etc?


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## UhOhSeven (Apr 23, 2013)

Precisely that.


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## treelover (Apr 23, 2013)

Smith is at it again, in the Telegraph, claiming "over a million people on benefits could work", interestingly journos seem to be getting their critical faculties back: on the paper reviews, one said it was aimed as "a distraction from Thursdays news that we may be in a triple dip recession", another said it was "a pre-emptive strike before UC comes in", even Digby Jones agreed there were no jobs, I think his propaganda is weakening...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 23, 2013)

Smith is like a broken fucking record with his bullshit.


----------



## weepiper (Apr 23, 2013)

4,300 people apply for 150 Tesco jobs

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...apply-just-150-vacancies-new-Tesco-store.html

Aye, so even if a million people on benefits_ could_ work, it wouldn't do them much fucking good.


----------



## treelover (Apr 23, 2013)

what is the mail up to? one minute it savages dole scroungers, then it posts a good and revealing article like this?

damn, the bar of shame is bloody addictive!


----------



## BigTom (Apr 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> Smith is at it again, in the Telegraph, claiming "over a million people on benefits could work", interestingly journos seem to be getting their critical faculties back: on the paper reviews, one said it was aimed as "a distraction from Thursdays news that we may be in a triple dip recession", another said it was "a pre-emptive strike before UC comes in", even Digby Jones agreed there were no jobs, I think his propaganda is weakening...



This article is just nonsense, as if the fact that people have worked recently is evidence that people don't want to work


----------



## Tai Chi Italy (Apr 24, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> I dunno about anyone else, but I'm sick of seeing people say "why doesn't someone do something" (yes, I know actually some people are, but y'know...).
> 
> Let's do something. I'm in south London. What I'd like to see is ideas for tactics/strategy on this thread and to arrange an initial meeting.
> 
> Anyone up for it? Or am I pissing in the wind?


Hi folks....I can't actually attend a demonstration against this government and its cuts to social welfare, but as a writer, I can write and have written an article and wondered what other people think? This is a good place to ask, as I had a good response to my first article for my blog called 'The Bedroom Tax' It is still being read and every time it is read, hopefully, some good will come from it.  Here's the link, please leave any comments and feel free to share.http://outrageousfortunesbytaichiitaly.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/a-fairer-society_13.html

This is what I am doing! It may not be much, but it is something.


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## Blagsta (Apr 24, 2013)

You know after all my moaning about not doing anything, i haven't done much. Other things got in the way


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## Tai Chi Italy (Apr 24, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> You know after all my moaning about not doing anything, i haven't done much. Other things got in the way


Yes, life does tend to get in the way.  That's why I love writing....once I have it down in print, it is 'there', in ya face and not going away.  I did manage to attend my first demo since a teen against the Bedroom Tax.  It was in my local area of Cornwall, so very low key!! but I did enjoy it...especially watching people steer around me to avoid a leaflet or signing the petition I was trying to shuv in their faces!lol


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## BigTom (Apr 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> Smith is at it again, in the Telegraph, claiming "over a million people on benefits could work", interestingly journos seem to be getting their critical faculties back: on the paper reviews, one said it was aimed as "a distraction from Thursdays news that we may be in a triple dip recession", another said it was "a pre-emptive strike before UC comes in", even Digby Jones agreed there were no jobs, I think his propaganda is weakening...


 
Full Fact demolishes the figures:

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/are_a_million_people_fit_to_work_yet_living_on_benefits-28895

of the 1 mill, 187k are on ESA (wrag) and therefore not "fit to work". 117k are in the assessment phase for ESA, and mostly IB claimants.
No account is made of the appeal rate for ESA 
Of the other 700k, there's no way of knowing which benefits they've been on in the past four years, many of them might well have been IB/ESA claimants.

So the numbers are wrong AND the analysis of the numbers is wrong


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2013)

> *David Cameron's young sidekick claims families use food banks so they can spend cash in the pub*
> 
> 25 Apr 2013 00:00
> 
> He blurted out his comments after he was challenged over claims Mr Cameron had made misleading remarks about his local food bank


 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-camerons-young-sidekick-claims-1852193​​​That's us rumbled then  ​


----------



## Tai Chi Italy (Apr 25, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-camerons-young-sidekick-claims-1852193
> 
> 
> That's us rumbled then


What a load of old tosh! I know where I am coming from, and I have starved many a time rather than use a food bank! Its my pride! It just won't allow me to practically beg for food.  I have often wished I could do it, but I just can't.  I thank god for providing such life saving facilities for those that simply have no choice. KIds must be fed!!! As to spending money in Pubs!lol what a joke....most pubs are losing money due to the 'no smoking ban' They have lost the heart of the community.  They used to be a place where people would meet and socialise.  Now, I would imagine, not even those working and earning a crust can afford to use them.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 25, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> As a newcomer to these parts, I thought it might not be a bad idea to read up on some interesting-looking threads.
> 
> Last night, I read this one from start to finish over several hours.
> 
> Christ.


 
Blimey 

I'd have just strolled in and ask for a summary


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 25, 2013)

Sheila Gilmore wants an inquiry to look into the misuse of statistics



> *An influential Commons committee could be set to investigate the use of misleading statistics on disability benefits by Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) ministers.*
> 
> Work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith and his colleague Esther McVey, the minister for disabled people, have been criticised in the last month for using misleading statistics on disability living allowance (DLA) to try to justify their welfare reforms.
> 
> ...


 
http://disabilitynewsservice.com/20...e-ministers-misleading-use-of-benefits-stats/


----------



## treelover (Apr 25, 2013)

shame they it wasn't 'enough' when NL were doing the same, but it is a start...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> shame they it wasn't 'enough' when NL were doing the same, but it is a start...


 
tbf, Sheila Gilmore has been very good at attending debates and speaking up on disability/bedroom tax etc., one of the few Labour MPs that has done so


----------



## treelover (Apr 25, 2013)

> Group members - we're having serious problems - we're having to use 6 different computers & different modems - Facebook, the government, Atos Origin & the Job Centre Plus are trying to cause us so many problems in preventing us informing our group members - sorry guys we will continue best we can.
> 
> HOW CAN YOU HELP ?? - Group members share everything - let them know we will NOT be silenced! Facebo...ok is trying to cause problems for our group members, with the use of 'Captcha' - its all about 'preventing' group members from sharing information will other friends.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Apr 26, 2013)

http://sampb.co.uk/politics/jobcentre-plus-and-facebook-join-forces-to-block-political-websites/

Jonny Void says it is all rubbish though..


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 26, 2013)

> *History repeating*
> 
> 
> The impact of welfare reform on social housing tenants will depend on where they live. Keith Cooper investigates if the localisation of the welfare system marks a return to the 19th century poor law


http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tenancies/history-repeating/6526679.article


----------



## weepiper (Apr 26, 2013)

More relevant than the Rich List

http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investiga...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I see shop staff aren't on there though. Very uncommon for that to be paid significantly more than min wage. I'm earning less than any of the jobs on that list


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 26, 2013)

> Planning permission has been granted for five years, with the contaminated land not considered suitable for permanent housing.
> 
> So its ok to make people live on contaminated land now as long as its only for 5 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-22306838*


----------



## Tai Chi Italy (Apr 26, 2013)

I assume this came from here! http://www.urban75.org/blog/heavily...pletely-outnumbered-by-counter-demonstrators/.  Shame these thugs have taken over the tradition of what 'St Georges Day' really is about, ie Britishness in all it's ethnic shades! It's what we're known for! Multi-cultural reality.  Interesting that the counter demonstration has 4 times as many supporters.  What a waste of money re the security presence! Far better ways to spend it....


----------



## Tai Chi Italy (Apr 26, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-22306838*


waste not want contaminated land! lol


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 26, 2013)

> *
> News from Camden United for Benefit Justice (CUBJ)
> 
> All welcome!!!
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 26, 2013)

*Tenants to take to streets to protest against 'exploitation'*



> Londoners will take to the streets tomorrow to protest against "rip off fees", spiralling rents and the "exploitation" of private tenants by letting agents.


http://www.24dash.com/news/housing/...ke-to-streets-to-protest-against-exploitation


----------



## BigTom (Apr 26, 2013)

treelover said:


> http://sampb.co.uk/politics/jobcentre-plus-and-facebook-join-forces-to-block-political-websites/
> 
> Jonny Void says it is all rubbish though..


 
Someone commented on the Birmingham Against The Cuts blog saying it'd be marked as spam by Facebook, around IDS' (cancelled) visit to Smethwick JCP. Didn't think anything of it at the time really.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 26, 2013)

West Mids council's say they are "missing essential information about benefit changes" http://www.birminghampost.net/news/...enefits-changes-warn-of-chaos-65233-33241004/



> The benefits system is being thrown into chaos because local councils are expected to oversee radical changes without essential information from Whitehall, Midland authorities have warned.
> 
> Even Department for Work and Pension officials don’t understand how aspects of the new benefit system actually work, authorities said.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Apr 26, 2013)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 26, 2013)

WTF?



> *Social housing residents told to sign 'ambition'
> plan as part of tenancies*
> 
> Social housing tenants will be expected to keep fit, give up smoking and actively look for work, under a controversial new scheme devised by a major housing association.
> ...


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...mbitionplan-as-part-of-tenancies-8590713.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 26, 2013)

Feel free to comment:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Yarlington-Housing-Group/324554227598603

@yarlingtonhg

Chief Executive, Gary Orr 

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/Appointments/article1000554.ece 

@GaryYarlington


----------



## treelover (Apr 26, 2013)

Hurtling back to the 19th Century, be interesting to see how this came about, trustees decision, etc, another rubicon crossed, worth its own thread deffo..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 26, 2013)

treelover said:


> Hurtling back to the 19th Century, be interesting to see how this came about, trustees decision, etc, another rubicon crossed, worth its own thread deffo..


 
I agree.  Needs lots of publicity, although I fear Daily Mail types will swamp their Facebook page with messages of support


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 26, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I agree. Needs lots of publicity, although I fear Daily Mail types will swamp their Facebook page with messages of support


 
Quite the opposite so far!


----------



## treelover (Apr 26, 2013)

interesting that their bright little intro cartoon is all white people..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 26, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Quite the opposite so far!


 
DM types just haven't discovered it yet 

The DM will probably have the story soon anyway


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 27, 2013)

> *youwat?* ‏@*POSH_JOCK*  19s
> Today renters across London are taking action against letting agents. Here's why http://nin.tl/144geg4  #*LetDownRenters*


 
*Britain’s ‘generation rent’ breaks its silence
http://newint.org/blog/2013/04/24/letting-agents-protests/
*


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2013)

treelover said:


> Hurtling back to the 19th Century, be interesting to see how this came about, trustees decision, etc, another rubicon crossed, worth its own thread deffo..


 
I've been talking about the neo-Victorian bent of the UK's neoliberals for more than a decade - in fact pretty much since Blair started all his "third way" third-sector bollocks of getting charities, cooperatives and HAs tangled up in provision of state services. We're not "hurtling back". We've been there since at least 2006, but it's only within the last 2 years that the policies and the political space has been available to actually *finish activating* those policies.


----------



## stuff_it (Apr 27, 2013)

Now the Beeb is publishing recipes for nettle soup and battery eggs... 

State media much?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22263706


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 27, 2013)

The whole 'how to live on £1 a day' thing is fucking me off....


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 27, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Now the Beeb is publishing recipes for nettle soup and battery eggs...
> 
> State media much?
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22263706


 
the last linekind of redeems it...kind of ...

"global poverty project"


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> "global poverty project"


 
That just sets my radar off tbh....


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 27, 2013)

yeh, liberal bollocks


> "You're doing this as an experiment for five days," says Jack Monroe. "But when it is your way of life, and you haven't got any choice over it, it's not a fun experiment."


----------



## treelover (Apr 27, 2013)

The BBC should be reporting on the suicides as a consequence of ATOS/benefit regimes, not playing at being Lady Bountiful...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 27, 2013)

https://www.livebelowtheline.com/uk

Check out the vid:

https://www.livebelowtheline.com/uk-en-thecause

_Live Below the Line_ is an innovative awareness and fundraising campaign that's making a huge difference in the fight against extreme poverty.
Quite simply, we’re building a movement of passionate people willing and able to make a meaningful difference to those who need it most.
_Live Below the Line_ is challenging individuals and communities to see how much change you can make out of £1. By living off just £1 per day for food for 5 days, you will be bringing to life the direct experiences of the 1.4 billion people currently living in extreme poverty and helping to make real change.
Think about that figure - 1.4 BILLION - that's over 20 times the population of the UK - living every day in extreme poverty.

- See more at: https://www.livebelowtheline.com/uk-en-thecause#sthash.B8KLxU5N.dpuf

hmmm


----------



## BigTom (Apr 27, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Now the Beeb is publishing recipes for nettle soup and battery eggs...
> 
> State media much?
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22263706


 
christ, they ran another article talking about £12/week being enough food (for a single woman, but not presented clearly like that) in the past couple of days.
Look at how many different supermarkets you'd have to visit to do it, that'd cost me £4 on a bus or take a good two to three hours of walking, and I'm fairly fortunate in that a high street about 30 minutes walk from me has both an ASDA and a Sainsbury's, and I've got a Co-op closer than that. Tesco is like 45 minutes the other way though.
Fucking nonsense even when you disregard the whole 5 day bullshit, and forget about the energy costs involved in cooking the food and that you have to buy in quantity to get those prices - 10g of Brie? You have to spend a couple of quid at least to get the Brie at all, you can't just buy 10g of Brie.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 27, 2013)

'Let's globally corporatise poverty ...' What could possibly go wrong....


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 27, 2013)

Messiah complex 





> *Richest minister Richard Benyon 'dispenses loaves to poor'*
> 
> *The minister who told families to save money by eating leftovers was named yesterday as Britain’s richest MP and a landowner who has taken part in a ritual of dispensing loaves to the poor.*


 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-Richard-Benyon-dispenses-loaves-to-poor.html

What next water into wine?


----------



## Libertad (Apr 27, 2013)

Fucking cunt. Richard Benyon, your name is now on the list.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 27, 2013)

> *Tutini* ‏@*Tutini2*  16m
> What next @*richardbenyonmp*? Where are the fishes? Water into to wine soon? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10022123/Richest-minister-Richard-Benyon-dispenses-loaves-to-poor.html … #*MessiahComplex*


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 27, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Messiah complex
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I've got a fair bit of pleasantly piquant & rather salty spreadable cheese under my foreskin that I'd be more than happy for Benyon to spread on his after dinner water biscuits.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 28, 2013)

> *Seven Atos doctors under investigation*
> 
> Seven doctors employed by the company that carries out controversial “fitness to work” tests for the government are being investigated by the General Medical Council (GMC).


http://www.spinal.co.uk/news/atos-doctors-investigation

http://disabilitynewsservice.com/


----------



## weepiper (Apr 29, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-22342672



> A court has heard how a 50-year-old man threatened to set both himself and a Borders health centre on fire after having his benefits cut.
> John McCarry of Galashiels doused himself in petrol and held the rest of a half-full plastic bottle in one hand and a lighter in the other.
> The court was told he was angry that he had been declared fit to work.


----------



## Wilson (Apr 29, 2013)

BigTom said:


> christ, they ran another article talking about £12/week being enough food (for a single woman, but not presented clearly like that) in the past couple of days.
> Look at how many different supermarkets you'd have to visit to do it, that'd cost me £4 on a bus or take a good two to three hours of walking, and I'm fairly fortunate in that a high street about 30 minutes walk from me has both an ASDA and a Sainsbury's, and I've got a Co-op closer than that. Tesco is like 45 minutes the other way though.
> Fucking nonsense even when you disregard the whole 5 day bullshit, and forget about the energy costs involved in cooking the food and that you have to buy in quantity to get those prices - 10g of Brie? You have to spend a couple of quid at least to get the Brie at all, you can't just buy 10g of Brie.


 
he seems to think that you get 26 cloves in a bulb of garlic, which is patently bullshit.


----------



## weepiper (Apr 29, 2013)

I blogged on the 'live on x paltry amount per day' articles

http://furcoatnaenicks.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/povertys-easy-youre-just-doing-it-wrong/


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 29, 2013)

weepiper said:


> I blogged on the 'live on x paltry amount per day' articles
> 
> http://furcoatnaenicks.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/povertys-easy-youre-just-doing-it-wrong/


 


> ‘Even with kids you just need to look up things to do on the internet, there are so many free things in and around where you live.’


 
And how the fuck's Kath Kelly paying for her internet if she's living on a pound a day?

Is that your blog though? Nice one 

E2a - aw ffs, 





> Made the most of free buffets at public events and celebrations


 - One of the worst smackheads on the estate I used to live on in Rochdale used to always take his kids to Christening dos and the like at the local church with the sole intention of freeloading the scran that was on offer. Til he got his kids took off him. Is she _really_ advocating doing that as a good idea? Magical memories of childhood "Yeah, we never had food in our cupboards so we used to have to turn up at places like beggars at the gate". Christ.


----------



## weepiper (Apr 29, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> And how the fuck's Kath Kelly paying for her internet if she's living on a pound a day?
> 
> Is that your blog though? Nice one
> 
> E2a - aw ffs, - One of the worst smackheads on the estate I used to live on in Rochdale used to always take his kids to Christening dos and the like at the local church with the sole intention of freeloading the scran that was on offer. Til he got his kids took off him. Is she _really_ advocating doing that as a good idea? Magical memories of childhood "Yeah, we never had food in our cupboards so we used to have to turn up at places like beggars at the gate". Christ.


 
Yeah it is mine, thanks  re the rest, I _know_, right? It's just fucking preposterous. It makes me angry that people should be even suggesting that anyone should live like that in this fucking day and age.


----------



## Wilson (Apr 29, 2013)

Wilson said:


> he seems to think that you get 26 cloves in a bulb of garlic, which is patently bullshit.


 
I've actually broken one up and counted now , there were 11, so not even half what this journo says.


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *Britain’s ‘generation rent’ breaks its silence*
> *http://newint.org/blog/2013/04/24/letting-agents-protests/*


 
any reports...


----------



## stuff_it (Apr 29, 2013)

Disabled should work for less than Min wage apparently...  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-less-than-minimum-wage-Tory-MP-suggests.html


----------



## UhOhSeven (Apr 29, 2013)

Jesus H Christ in a chicken basket.

Not even the _Daily Bellylaugh_ seems willing to take him seriously, so we have at least a modicum of hope.


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Disabled should work for less than Min wage apparently...
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-less-than-minimum-wage-Tory-MP-suggests.html


 
I was going to post that, its doing the rounds, then  I saw the date

still very very relevant...


----------



## stuff_it (Apr 29, 2013)

treelover said:


> I was going to post that, its doing the rounds, then I saw the date
> 
> still very very relevant...


I don't for one second think they could get away with it in the near future but it's a good guide to their sort of attitudes.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 30, 2013)

Lord Freud basically admits that the whole thing is badly thought out, incomplete, and a horlicks.   In this letter distributed to Supported Housing providers this morning.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 30, 2013)

Is Lord Freud any relation?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Is Lord Freud any relation?


 
I believe he is, yes.

Unconsciously, anyway.


----------



## treelover (Apr 30, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> Lord Freud basically admits that the whole thing is badly thought out, incomplete, and a horlicks. In this letter distributed to Supported Housing providers this morning.


 
haven't read the PDF, what is 'badly thought out'?


----------



## stuff_it (Apr 30, 2013)

Jobseekers forced to take bogus psychometric tests. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/30/jobseekers-bogus-psychometric-tests-unemployed


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 30, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Jobseekers forced to take bogus psychometric tests.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/30/jobseekers-bogus-psychometric-tests-unemployed


 
Jesus. I created a thing of beauty when I went for a shit earlier on - I made a figurine of Mrs Thatcher out of the main turd.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 30, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Jobseekers forced to take bogus psychometric tests.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/30/jobseekers-bogus-psychometric-tests-unemployed


I don't doubt the truth of this, but if the DWP really are administering bogus, unvalidated tests like this, regardless of compulsion, it's an outrage. I can't put my finger on it, but two words - deceptive and abusive - spring to mind, neither of which should ever be part of government policy.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> haven't read the PDF, what is 'badly thought out'?


 
read the pdf, it's really short.  it was a letter received by a number of landlords today.


----------



## treelover (Apr 30, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I don't doubt the truth of this, but if the DWP really are administering bogus, unvalidated tests like this, regardless of compulsion, it's an outrage. I can't put my finger on it, but two words - deceptive and abusive - spring to mind, neither of which should ever be part of government policy.


 
wasn't it an urban poster who discovered this originally, on the Void blog?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I don't doubt the truth of this, but if the DWP really are administering bogus,unvalidated tests like this, regardless of compulsion, it's an outrage. I can't put my finger on it, but two words - deceptive and abusive - spring to mind, neither of which should ever be part of government policy.


 
It's certainly unethical, and a perversion of behavioural economics as I understand it (i.e. as a mode of deriving insight into economic behaviour with regard to consumption choices.
Not that I'm surprised by a government unit nigh-on-inventing a scientific basis for exercising their ideological beliefs by refering back to their *understanding or interpretation* of (in this case) a sub-discipline of the psychology of economics, far from it.


----------



## treelover (May 1, 2013)

> In a surprise move, shadow work and pensions secretary Liam Byrne indicated his party now backed the introduction of the new universal credit system, designed to ensure it always pays for people on benefits to go back to work or accept extra hours.
> Labour voted against the scheme when it was debated by Parliament last year. But yesterday Mr Byrne said the universal credit system was a ‘fine idea’, albeit one with some details still to be ironed out.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2316612/Universal-Credit-shake-make-sure-work-pays-gets-underway-Labour-finally-admits-sensible-idea.html#ixzz2S2gaOdOj


 

Labour now back Universal Credit...


----------



## stuff_it (May 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> Labour now back Universal Credit...




On the other hand look what the Torons sneaked through on a busy news week:

http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...s/parliament-2010/the-role-of-jobcentre-plus/ 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-22220882


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2013)

treelover said:


> Labour now back Universal Credit...


 

Hardly surprising, is it? We all knew Byrne was cast from the same mold as Purnell, so he probably shot his load in his Calvins when Balls and Miliband gave him the nod on this.  Neoliberal fuckwads.


----------



## treelover (May 4, 2013)

http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2013/...d-money-from-atos-to-sponsor-awards-ceremony/

https://www.facebook.com/EMAP.NT

Couldn't make it up, ATOS are sponsoring The Nursing Times Awards Ceremony.


----------



## treelover (May 4, 2013)

> Nursing Times would like to officially confirm that ATOS is not a sponsor for this year’s Nursing Times Awards 2013.


 

Weird, ATOS claim they are sponsoring NT's Awards, NT's says it isn't

what is does show is the power of social media to challenge the corporates when they do wrong, and its is largely inclusive.


----------



## treelover (May 4, 2013)

http://wearespartacus.org.uk/bedroom-tax/bedroom-tax-call-for-evidence/


Spartacus, the disability benefits action research group which did the brilliant report on the last brutal Welfare Bill, is calling for evidence on the Bedroom tax and its affects on disabled and sick claimants..


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 5, 2013)




----------



## Treacle Toes (May 5, 2013)

*Workshy map of Britain revealed: Thousands of incapacity benefit claimants found to be capable of working*


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2319355/Workshy-map-Britain-revealed-Thousands-incapacity-benefit-claimants-capable-working.html#ixzz2SN1aKMxY​No palm large enough to facepalm in the way I would like ​


----------



## UhOhSeven (May 5, 2013)

I see from that map that Birmingham has sold up and moved to Buckinghamshire.

Also: No London?


----------



## BigTom (May 5, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> I see from that map that Birmingham has sold up and moved to Buckinghamshire.
> 
> Also: No London?



I think it's done by council area, if so that alone explains why Birmingham is highest and none of the London councils are there.
Worth also noting that these figures are before appeal so you can knock 20% of them for starters


----------



## audiotech (May 9, 2013)




----------



## Libertad (May 9, 2013)




----------



## treelover (May 9, 2013)

> New 2012/13 DWP official figures for fraud estimates.
> 
> Preliminary estimates of Fraud and Error by type of error in 2012/13
> 0.7%, or £1.2bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to fraud;
> ...


 
With all the intense scrutiny and resources they are pouring in, fraud is still very low.


----------



## stuff_it (May 10, 2013)

Good article about Tory run privatised food banks. 

http://www.cantpaywontpay.org/publish/?p=2311


----------



## treelover (May 10, 2013)

Some fantastic stuff on the net now, information is power...


----------



## Greebo (May 10, 2013)

Libertad said:


>


Word.  Reasonable allowances should be made about signing on times and related appointments, the same as a reasonable employer would make for one of their employees.


----------



## treelover (May 16, 2013)

> *DWP report accepts mistakes made on welfare sanctions by jobcentres*
> 
> Internal inquiry rejects existence of targets but accepts action is taken against jobcentres that sanction benefits less than others
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/may/15/dwp-no-evidence-jobcentre-benefits-targets


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 16, 2013)

Welfare again though.

It's Social Security, wankers.


----------



## J Ed (May 16, 2013)

> An internal inquiry at the Department for Work and Pensions into the covert regime of welfare targets at jobcentres says it has found no evidence of the practice – yet it accepts that action is taken against those jobcentres that do not sanction benefits as much as others.
> The report also says some jobcentre staff are sometimes given personal targets, but only after being disciplined.


 
I had to re-read that three times. They are just admitting that there are targets but they aren't written down, aren't they?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I had to re-read that three times. They are just admitting that there are targets but they aren't written down, aren't they?


 
No, it's worse (and more subtle).
They're saying "there's no evidence of secret/hidden targets, but we do look into JCs that have a lower than average number of sanctions, and we do discipline individual staff who sanction below the average number of claimants".
Al the while not acknowledging that by disciplining staff and targeting specific JCs, the so-called "average" will, _ipso facto_, be raised, thus giving a self-perpetuating, ever-rising target to attain.


----------



## BigTom (May 17, 2013)

> We found no evidence of a secret national regime of targets, or widespread secret imposition of local regimes to that effect.


 
Translation:

"We were actually quite open about having sanctions targets"


----------



## audiotech (May 20, 2013)

When a "league table is not a "league table", but is in reality a "league table". Orwell will be spinning in Room 101 at the Ministry of Truth.




> Addressing the issue of whether league tables are routinely exchanged inside the DWP and Jobcentre Plus, he said: "It would be technically possible to configure management information into a league table (a simple manipulation of Excel) but as the leak showed, it is not in a league table.


----------



## audiotech (May 21, 2013)

'Inflation dropped a touch in April, but it remains well above the pace of earnings growth. Real wages in the UK have been falling for three years. The chart below shows average weekly earnings (total pay including bonuses) in real terms (March 2013 prices using RPI). 'Down, down, deeper and down...'








Who are these people earning over £450 a week, cos I don't know anyone earning this much, not that I begrudge those who are?


----------



## BigTom (May 22, 2013)

audiotech said:


> 'Inflation dropped a touch in April, but it remains well above the pace of earnings growth. Real wages in the UK have been falling for three years. The chart below shows average weekly earnings (total pay including bonuses) in real terms (March 2013 prices using RPI). 'Down, down, deeper and down...'
> 
> Who are these people earning over £450 a week, cos I don't know anyone earning this much, not that I begrudge those who are?


 
Presumably they are using a mean average which will be distorted by the few people earning extremely high amounts. I'd like it if they'd also plot the median (50% of people earn less) and mode (the amount(s) that the most number of people earn) averages along with the mean, it'd be interesting to see them. They will certainly be lower than the mean average though.
I don't think I've ever seen figures for the mode salaries tbh, median iirc is somewhere around £20k but google it before quoting me cos that's probably a couple of years old even if it's right.

In any case that graph's the reality even if we'd move the line down to the median or mode if we felt that they were more reflective of reality than the mean*, and whatever actual rises there have been in employment over the past few years are offset against the reduction in real wages along with more part time work. I don't really know why economists claim to be scratching their heads over how it is that unemployment isn't at/over 3million and employment has risen tbh, but apparently they do. Still, they are economists so we shouldn't expect too much I suppose.

*personally I'd always plot the mean and the median - I don't know what the mode graph would look like or how many modes there would be so I don't know if we'd actually be able to learn anything from having it there. In principle it would be good to see that as well.


----------



## treelover (May 27, 2013)

> *Labour's New New Jerusalem*
> 
> 
> Duration:
> ...


 


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01sm2g0



'Analysis' on R4 tonight is about 'blue labours' plans for ending benefits as we know it, Glasman is interviewed arguing 'we have to be judgemental, as is Cruddas, back to the Victorian age, shocking stuff.


btw, BBC really does have an agenda on welfare, Purnell pushing his ideas?


----------



## audiotech (May 28, 2013)

Some electioneering going on as well I suspect. I'm not against the idea of welfare being delivered at a local level. The key concept used and quoted above does have a Victorian ring to it though and the additional comment, "so we have to be judgemental", suggests some updated version of a parish council administering a new 'Poor Law'. Interestingly enough the old poor laws fell into decline owing much to the introduction of welfare reforms in the 20c. Welfare reform now is benefit cuts, so touching yer cap to some charities, Dickensian in nature, but updated with happy faces and balloons. Then there will be the new workhouses to spend all those hours the assumed indolents have plenty of.

The politicians pile on this mess, with their unaccountable, bloated, inefficient bureaucracy's the result and then people on low incomes get hammered, as they return to another age for some inspiration for a re-think.

Pretty grim all round.


----------



## stuff_it (Jun 12, 2013)

Hero: http://www.bridlingtonfreepress.co.uk/news/local/naked-glued-to-job-centre-desk-1-3843817

Superglued himself to the Jobcentre desk naked.


----------



## treelover (Jun 12, 2013)

Wow, hope the Mirror, etc pick this up...


----------



## Greebo (Jun 12, 2013)

treelover said:


> Wow, hope the Mirror, etc pick this up...


 
We can hope, although I don't expect much.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 12, 2013)

Fair play to the man.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 13, 2013)

I was talking to someone who works at a CAB yesterday and we got on to the subject of food banks, she told me that according to her clients her local food banks were handing out some (in the view of some of her clients) pretty extreme evangelical Christian biblical tracts with their food.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 13, 2013)

J Ed said:


> <snip>local food banks were handing out some (in the view of some of her clients) pretty extreme evangelical Christian biblical tracts with their food.


I'm no fan of the Salvation Army, but at least AFAIK they've always but always taken the line of take care of the body first and only then consider offering to feed the soul.

Those tracts could easily drive even the most desperate away from asking for help.


----------



## BigTom (Jun 13, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Hero: http://www.bridlingtonfreepress.co.uk/news/local/naked-glued-to-job-centre-desk-1-3843817
> 
> Superglued himself to the Jobcentre desk naked.


 
best part of 2 years old: http://metro.co.uk/2011/10/07/naked...himself-to-desk-in-job-centre-protest-178065/ and was in the metro at least, think it was in other papers too. Not sure why it's been reposted in some way on the bridlington free press site, has todays date as the post date but says published in 2011.


----------



## 8115 (Jun 19, 2013)

More on the dodgy psychometric tests.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jun/19/health-watchdog-investigates-psychometric-tests


----------



## audiotech (Jun 20, 2013)

treelover said:


> Wow, hope the Mirror, etc pick this up...


 

Tony Parsons has a piece titled: "Disabled go from Paralympic winners to humiliated as 'scroungers' in space of a year" published some days ago.

I'm afraid one of the very few journalists to raise this demonisation process by those in government and their media lackeys. I'm also afraid that it's all too late, as the bastards seem to have won over public opinion on this issue.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Tony Parsons has a piece titled: "Disabled go from Paralympic winners to humiliated as 'scroungers' in space of a year" published some days ago.
> 
> I'm afraid one of the very few journalists to raise this demonisation process by those in government and their media lackeys. I'm also afraid that it's all too late, as the bastards seem to have won over public opinion on this issue.


 
Thing is, the bastards also know that *that* "winning over" is contingent on them continuing to peddle the same tropes convincingly, so I'll give Tony Parsons a nod for bringing an alternative view into the public domain, even if I don't personally think much of his body of work.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm with you there VP.

Edit: Johnny Void's body of work on the other hand is exemplary.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 21, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I'm with you there VP.
> 
> Edit: Johnny Void's body of work on the other hand is exemplary.


 
Agreed. Very much a case of fact-based journalism, rather than editorial opinion dressed up as _reportage_.


----------



## treelover (Jun 22, 2013)

OTT?


----------



## Greebo (Jun 22, 2013)

treelover said:


> <snip>OTT?


 
Not if you've got data from reliable and respected sources to back up those claims.


----------



## treelover (Jun 22, 2013)

thinking of printing some..


----------



## EastEnder (Jun 23, 2013)

Ed Miliband rules out borrowing to reverse spending cuts
Looks like Labour have given up on the idea of reducing the cuts...


----------



## treelover (Jun 25, 2013)

> The social fund is the last resort, the final gasket that blows in the benefits system. Jobcentres did offer social fund loans or grants in an emergency, but in April that function moved to local councils to do as they please, un-ringfenced. The Children's Society finds they make randomly different provisions and conditions. In Stoke four experienced staff, sympathetic but canny, field some 50 calls a day from people at the end of their tether. Checking the caller's status on several data bases, they can hand out vouchers for food banks, open their own food cupboard, sometimes offer clothes or top up empty gas and electricity keys. Families needing nappies, milk or school uniform are sent to children's centres. "No, I'm sorry, we don't give out money or loans any more," begins almost every phone call. "No, I'm sorry, only food for three days". No, no bus money.
> Most callers have been referred from the jobcentre, an irony since most people's crises are caused by what the jobcentre has done to them. Errors delaying payments have left some starving. Many have been "sanctioned", with benefits stopped for weeks: a catastrophic punishment, often for trivial infringements – even the best reasons for a missed appointment are dismissed. This team sees letters demanding attendance that arrive after the appointment date, but people are still sanctioned. The Department for Work and Pensions denies the existence of quotas, but jobcentres are under intense pressure to cut people off, with league tables and threats to offices or staff who sanction too little. The DWP is delaying the publication of data on these new tougher sanctions – expected to be shocking.
> All human misery is here. Some callers are in tears, some shout in frustration after a series of rebuffs, some plainly have mental health problems ignored by the sanctioners. Some are just out of prison, arriving with nothing at all, no change of clothes. One ex-army man suffering panic attacks has been sanctioned when he couldn't leave his home. Some have been on the streets: homelessness is rising in Stoke. How desperate can you be when you have nothing to feed your children and debt collectors are pressing? A man who went totally blind last year has been thrown off disability benefit for missing an appointment, his debts building as he has a spare room.
> Some have lost disability benefits after an Atos test, and can no longer make ends meet. Many are deeply ashamed at having to beg for a food parcel. Council tax and bedroom tax debts escalate. One frantic woman loses it after being evicted, her husband's family is harassing her, and she's been kicking off at the jobcentre, which doesn't help. Then her phone battery goes. Calls to this office have risen by a quarter but the fund has exactly £80,000 a month, regardless of demand.
> ...


 


Polly on her visit to Stoke, genuinely heartbreaking

and its going to get worse,


----------



## BigTom (Jun 25, 2013)

Birmingham Law Centre has closed today  
http://www.birminghamlawcentre.org.uk/



> It is with regret that we have to advise you that Birmingham Law Centre has now closed down. If you are a creditor you will be receiving a letter from the Insolvency Service. If you are a client of the Law Centre you will receive a letter explaining what will happen to your file.
> 
> Please note we will be unable to respond to any messages left on the voicemail or callers who visit in person at the office.


 
Just like that. We knew it was in trouble and was likely to close but thought they'd found interim funding and hadn't said anything new until today. Beginning of the end of advice in Birmingham.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jun 25, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Birmingham Law Centre has closed today
> http://www.birminghamlawcentre.org.uk/
> 
> 
> ...


 

Shed a small tear at work when I saw this morning.  We're all pretty devastated, it's a lifeline to our service users, I dunno what we're going to do now.


----------



## BigTom (Jun 25, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Shed a small tear at work when I saw this morning. We're all pretty devastated, it's a lifeline to our service users, I dunno what we're going to do now.


 
I haven't a clue either. It's so bad it's hard to vocalise it, know so many people with benefit and immigration problems that went to the law centre. Everywhere else (and there's not that many places) is already overwhelmed with their workload increase/funding or income cut problem that they cannot possibly take the strain. It's just so completely fucked, loads more people with problems needing advice and help and less money and services to help them.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jun 25, 2013)

BigTom said:


> I haven't a clue either. It's so bad it's hard to vocalise it, know so many people with benefit and immigration problems that went to the law centre. Everywhere else (and there's not that many places) is already overwhelmed with their workload increase/funding or income cut problem that they cannot possibly take the strain. It's just so completely fucked, loads more people with problems needing advice and help and less money and services to help them.


 

It makes me so angry and hopeless and miserable tbh.  And powerless, because really, what can we do but pick up the pieces as best we can.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 25, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Birmingham Law Centre has closed today <snip>


 
Oh fuck.


----------



## treelover (Jun 26, 2013)

In the spending review today Osbourne announced JSA will not be claimable for the first week, with JSA and HB already paid two weeks 'in arrears' that means a 3 Week without an income. The food banks will be overwhelmed and more homeless


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 26, 2013)

If I ever win the lottery (big money), I'm getting out of this country. I'm so fucking sick of it 

Poor people won't be able to afford that once it goes up to £2


----------



## treelover (Jun 26, 2013)

Welfare budget capped at 100 Billion, first time ever, if its runs out, no HB, PIP, etc.


----------



## BigTom (Jun 26, 2013)

treelover said:


> Welfare budget capped at 100 Billion, first time ever, if its runs out, no HB, PIP, etc.


 
This is totally fucked up. Unemployment goes up, your benefits go down. No idea one month to the next how much you'll be getting, completely out of your control. Suddenly other claimants are your financial enemy, turns us in on ourselves. Nasty.

The biggest weird freak result of this is in HB I reckon - if rents go up, HB goes down... unmanagable. Definitely will happen though I reckon. and then wtf will go on. craziness. 

Have you got a link for the 100billion figure? I only looked at a couple of articles but didn't see a figure had been set.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> If I ever win the lottery (big money), I'm getting out of this country. I'm so fucking sick of it
> 
> Poor people won't be able to afford that once it goes up to £2


 
Greebo and I agreed that if we ever won one of the multi-million euromillions jackpots, we'd endow a fund that helped people fight crap "welfare" laws.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 27, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Greebo and I agreed that if we ever won one of the multi-million euromillions jackpots, we'd endow a fund that helped people fight crap "welfare" laws.


 
Well I'd do something charitable as well, after I've had my luxury holiday and bought myself a nice little house somewhere


----------



## Greebo (Jun 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well I'd do something charitable as well, after I've had my luxury holiday and bought myself a nice little house somewhere


 
We'd also build properly disabled accessible housing (none of this "ground floor flat up a flight of stairs" nonsense) with rooms of a good size, and rent it out at social housing's rent levels.  Oh yes, and we'd move to Berlin.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 27, 2013)

Greebo said:


> We'd also build properly disabled accessible housing (none of this "ground floor flat up a flight of stairs" nonsense) with rooms of a good size, and rent it out at social housing's rent levels. Oh yes, and we'd move to Berlin.


 
Berlin gets cold in the winter though


----------



## Greebo (Jun 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Berlin gets cold in the winter though


 
That's okay - with money no object, we'd move somewhere else in the winter.


----------



## yield (Jun 29, 2013)

New care measure 'sets bar too high' for elderly and disabled, say charities
Telegraph. 28 Jun 2013


> The national minimum standard will replace the current system of four bands of need, from “low” to “critical”.
> 
> It is intended to end uncertainty about what care is available in different areas and reduce the number of people having to fight for provision, said Norman Lamb, the care minister.
> 
> ...


Double think. Trying to prevent creating a "culture of dependency" means leaving the elderly and vulnerable to the wolves.


----------



## jake12 (Jun 29, 2013)

treelover said:


> Smith is at it again, in the Telegraph, claiming "over a million people on benefits could work", interestingly journos seem to be getting their critical faculties back: on the paper reviews, one said it was aimed as "a distraction from Thursdays news that we may be in a triple dip recession", another said it was "a pre-emptive strike before UC comes in", even Digby Jones agreed there were no jobs, I think his propaganda is weakening...


Wonders if they have any fast track explosive courses? , I am sure they would find me a job! No matter how unwell i am! Joking of course.


----------



## jake12 (Jun 29, 2013)

Try this i thought they had tapped my phone .....??? ludicrous ....they tried to say i had committed fraud last year ...just after winning my second tribunal, and yes there was no case to answer! This year won another one ,  i am waiting for the next bombshell!


----------



## jake12 (Jun 29, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


>



Ian Duncan Smith is a flucktard!


----------



## jake12 (Jun 29, 2013)

audiotech said:


>


----------



## jake12 (Jun 29, 2013)

This is terrible and David Cameron needs to hang his head in 'shame'


----------



## jake12 (Jun 29, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Translation:
> 
> "We were actually quite open about having sanctions targets"


Yes... i believe someone resigned over it and whistled all over the papers!


----------



## jake12 (Jun 29, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Greebo and I agreed that if we ever won one of the multi-million euromillions jackpots, we'd endow a fund that helped people fight crap "welfare" laws.


That would be fantastic!


----------



## jake12 (Jun 29, 2013)

Tell you something, whatever government gets in it will more of the same, however , I will vote labour purely because David Cameron has no morals!


----------



## jake12 (Jun 29, 2013)

yield said:


> New care measure 'sets bar too high' for elderly and disabled, say charities
> Telegraph. 28 Jun 2013
> 
> Double think. Trying to prevent creating a "culture of dependency" means leaving the elderly and vulnerable to the wolves.


have you two ever read the book Solent Green , i think Dave has read it ! [ It is a brill book, google it ]


----------



## UhOhSeven (Jun 30, 2013)

Masterful takedown of the horrible IDS and his myrmidons here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/149776210/DPAC-Report-on-DWP-Abuse-of-Statistics-Final-22-June-2013
Long, but worth the effort.


----------



## treelover (Jun 30, 2013)

This is really like the old Eastern Bloc countries, where people could decide peoples futures at the touch of a telephone: losing benefits for four months for such a minor infringement gives immense power to Govt dept's and these training agencies that should not be accepted in a democratic society. I wonder how these apparatchiks sleep at night, infact I wonder how Purnellm, the progenitor of these 'reforms' now on 300'000 at the BBC sleeps at night.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2013)

jake12 said:


> Tell you something, whatever government gets in it will more of the same, however , I will vote labour purely because David Cameron has no morals!


 
Problem being that Miliband, Balls etc, while they have morals, have *flexible* morals, just like that wanker Blair.  I don't see Labour being any better, because they're signed up to the same neoliberal economic programme as the Tories.
If they were actually a socialist party, I might vote for them, but socialism isn't sometyhing Labour will ever do again. They're no longer the party of the poor and the oppressed, if they ever were.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> This is really like the old Eastern Bloc countries, where people could decide peoples futures at the touch of a telephone: losing benefits for four months for such a minor infringement gives immense power to Govt dept's and these training agencies that should not be accepted in a democratic society. I wonder how these apparatchiks sleep at night, infact I wonder how Purnellm, the progenitor of these 'reforms' now on 300'000 at the BBC sleeps at night.


 
I'd argue (and not flippantly either) that those Eastern Bloc countries still held to their own version of "due process", even when they were rounding up dissenters.  There's *no* due process to the sanctions regime. It's arbitrary, unmonitored and unpoliced/unsupervised.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2013)

jake12 said:


> have you two ever read the book Solent Green , i think Dave has read it ! [ It is a brill book, google it ]


 
"Soylent Green" (as in "soya" and "lentils") was the film (starring Charlton Heston), the book (by Harry Harrison) was called "Make Room! Make Room!".


----------



## coley (Jun 30, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Problem being that Miliband, Balls etc, while they have morals, have *flexible* morals, just like that wanker Blair.  I don't see Labour being any better, because they're signed up to the same neoliberal economic programme as the Tories.
> If they were actually a socialist party, I might vote for them, but socialism isn't sometyhing Labour will ever do again. They're no longer the party of the poor and the oppressed, if they ever were.


Quote in today's papers where labour is moaning about the recent Osbourne ' reforms' being their ideas originally!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2013)

coley said:


> Quote in today's papers where labour is moaning about the recent Osbourne ' reforms' being their ideas originally!


 
Yep. Same shit, different arseholes.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 30, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd argue (and not flippantly either) that those Eastern Bloc countries still held to their own version of "due process", even when they were rounding up dissenters.


 
In that case you know nothing about the Eastern Bloc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> In that case you know nothing about the Eastern Bloc.


 
Fuck off, dwyer.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 30, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck off, dwyer.


 
Flying into a rage will do nothing to prevent the exposure of your ıgnorance.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Flying into a rage will do nothing to prevent the exposure of your ıgnorance.


 
Rage? You're not even worthy of mild agitation.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 30, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Rage? You're not even worthy of mild agitation.


 
Just keep takıng the tablets, everythıng wıll be fıne.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 30, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Just keep takıng the tablets, everythıng wıll be fıne.


 
Actually it won't.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 30, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Just keep takıng the tablets, everythıng wıll be fıne.


 
You patronising cunt.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 30, 2013)

Libertad said:


> You patronising cunt.


 
*shrug* It's cool, that was just an attempt at humour which comes across extremely badly because, like one of his heroes (Milton), Dwyer doesn't use emoticons here.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 2, 2013)

"Over 12,000 Disabled People Forced To Work Unpaid Since Workfare Scheme Launched"







http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/201...o-work-unpaid-since-workfare-scheme-launched/


----------



## audiotech (Jul 7, 2013)

'Queue outside Peterborough Magistrates Court. Council Tax arrears':






Daily Mirror


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 7, 2013)

audiotech said:


> 'Queue outside Peterborough Magistrates Court. Council Tax arrears':
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Fuck.
Looks similar to the throngs from Poll Tax summonses.


----------



## treelover (Jul 7, 2013)

Kudos to the Mirror, doing some sterling work on the issues, shocking though how quick councils are in summonsing people, just like the Tories wanted..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 7, 2013)

treelover said:


> Kudos to the Mirror, doing some sterling work on the issues, shocking though how quick councils are in summonsing people, just like the Tories wanted..


 
TBF to the councils, their ability to resist summonsing people for CT debts is severely curtailed. it's not such an issue (yet) with the "bedroom tax", because some LAs are choosing to either re-classify rooms, or to exercise their right to not collect the tax full stop. Legislation will probably soon change that, so they'll either have to offset the deficit against their reserves, or start collecting it.


----------



## cyprusclean (Jul 8, 2013)

Still living in the dark ages as far as a decent living wage is concerned. No political party has manged to crack that one yet.

I'd say most people don't want to be on benefits, preferring instead to control their own destinies, in as much as that is possible.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 8, 2013)

With you about the lack of a living wage instead of minimum wage.  However...



cyprusclean said:


> <snip>I'd say most people don't want to be on benefits, preferring instead to control their own destinies, in as much as that is possible.


 
^I would be extremely wary of pushing this idea.  Taken to its logical conclusion, anyone who can't reliably go out to do full time work would end up  doing piecework and sweatshop type work at home instead.

I'd agree that probably nobody has the ambition to need to live on various benefits for life, but then again, few of us choose to become longterm sick or disabled.  Nor do many unpaid carers freely choose to do it (there's an enormous amount of pressure to not walk away, and not enough suitable support when it comes to making it possible to do paid work as well, even if you wanted to), nor does anyone choose to become old (except by choosing not to kill themselves first).


----------



## cyprusclean (Jul 8, 2013)

Greebo said:


> With you about the lack of a living wage instead of minimum wage. However...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm not talking about people who can't work, and have nothing else but the State to fall back on.

It's family in some cultures.

And *ambition' hardly comes into it.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 8, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> I'm not talking about people who can't work, and have nothing else but the State to fall back on<snip>


 
I accept how you meant it, but that's not how the media will spin it. There's been enough claimant bashing in recent years without providing one more excuse (ie. benefit claimants are too passive for their own good) for the government etc to use this as well.

BTW "family in some cultures" - what you mean is "women and children".  Men taking on caring responsibilities as a full time thing are rarer than rocking horse droppings.   They might earn a bit of extra money (or work a bit harder and longer) to feed the extra mouth but that as far as as the adult male contribution typically goes.


----------



## cyprusclean (Jul 8, 2013)

I'm not in to claimant bashing.  Or preaching to the less well off.

 I'm all for a decent living wage.... at least.  To provide some sense of self sufficiency and self esteem.

Nothing worse than being looked and talked down to because you are in a weak position.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 8, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> I'm not in to claimant bashing. Or preaching to the less well off.
> 
> I'm all for a decent living wage.... at least. To provide some sense of self sufficiency and self esteem.<snip>


 
"Less well off people" please.  Saying "the [insert label of choice here]" is dehumanising.  Also, thank you for your concern, but I have enough self esteem  and self sufficiency whether in paid work or out of it.  YMMV.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 8, 2013)

Workfare week of action begins today with online protest against high street workfare shops: http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=2730


----------



## cyprusclean (Jul 8, 2013)

Greebo said:


> "Less well off people" please. Saying "the [insert label of choice here]" is dehumanising. Also, thank you for your concern, but I have enough self esteem and self sufficiency whether in paid work or out of it. YMMV.


 

  You seem to have taken that personally.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 8, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> You seem to have taken that personally.


 
You seem to be an ignorant socially inept dickhead who lives under a bridge - prove me wrong.


----------



## cyprusclean (Jul 8, 2013)

Greebo said:


> You seem to be an ignorant socially inept dickhead who lives under a bridge - prove me wrong.


 
 Let's leave it at then, shall we?

I don't come here for fights and gratuitous insults.

I've realised it's like walking on hot coals, entering threads on social issues.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 8, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> Let's leave it at then, shall we?
> 
> I don't come here for fights and gratuitous insults.
> 
> *I've realised it's like walking on hot coals, entering threads on social issues.*


 
It can be a bit. And people are going to take some of the things you say personally when you're talking about issues that affect them personally. If someone asked me to use the phrase "less well off people" instead of "the less well off" & had the decency to explain why, I'd be inclined to go "Ok, fair enough, I never thought about it like that" _and then move on._

I hope you keep posting though 

But let's have it right - Greebo's got a valid point about a persons self esteem not having to be dependant on work.


----------



## cyprusclean (Jul 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> It can be a bit. And people are going to take some of the things you say personally when you're talking about issues that affect them personally. If someone asked me to use the phrase "less well off people" instead of "the less well off" & had the decency to explain why, I'd be inclined to go "Ok, fair enough, I never thought about it like that" _and then move on._
> 
> I hope you keep posting though
> 
> But let's have it right - Greebo's got a valid point about a persons self esteem not having to be dependant on work.


 
He misread that subjectively. There are soul destroying jobs, no doubt about it.
I don't know  if UK benefits are higher than  wages/salaries, the free bus pass being  a good thing for pensioners, ("well off"  included?).

But  in a country like Germany for instance, benefits equate with living on the bread line.

*Hartz IV, which still stirred enough anger last autumn to drive one activist to go on hunger strike, has intensified the debate around this radical alternative.*

And:

*Over the years, certain elements of the Hartz reforms have fallen foul of the constitution and its celebrated opening line "human dignity is inviolable". The German state is obliged to guarantee its citizens a life compatible with "human dignity," a principle that resulted in a 2010 court ruling that said the standard Hartz IV payment is not calculated in a way that ensures that.*

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/01/germany-hartz-reforms-inequality


----------



## cyprusclean (Jul 8, 2013)

Thank Frances BTW, for the heads up on how to construct politically correct sentences.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 8, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> *He* misread that subjectively. There are soul destroying jobs, no doubt about it.
> I don't know if UK benefits are higher than wages/salaries, the free bus pass being a good thing for pensioners, ("well off" included?).
> 
> But in a country like Germany for instance, benefits equate with living on the bread line.
> ...


 
She.

But I think it's you that's misreading things on purpose TBH. And then slavering a load of irrelevent bollocks about Germany. Sometimes in the UK, people can be better off on benefits than in work _but only coz wages are so woefully low._ Not coz benefits are generous, far from it. And the amount of people who are on in work rather than out of work benefits bears witness to that. But that's not even the point, all Greebo was saying (if I've got it right) is that being on benefits isn't a thing that should automatically erode a persons self esteem. Nor should being in work automatically boost a persons self esteem. Work does not necessarily equate to independance/self respect etc much as being on benefit doesn't necessarily equate to passivity/dependence etc.


----------



## cyprusclean (Jul 8, 2013)

"And then slavering a load of irrelevent bollocks about Germany."

Like you'd know?

*_but only coz wages are so woefully low._ Not coz benefits are generous, far from it.*

That's the most logical explanation I've read yet.

And that's my beef. No decent wages.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 8, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> "And then slavering a load of *irrelevent* bollocks about Germany."
> 
> *Like you'd know?*
> 
> ...


 
I know it's not relevant to what's being talked about here.

I don't think you'll find a single soul who disagrees with your point about decent wages being a requirement. But you _did_ use a phrase ("the less well off") that could be construed as offensive and, when it was pointed out why it could be taken as offensive, instead of responding with good grace, you chose to get all prickly.

And the way you seemed to equate working with self respect well, taken to it's conclusion that train of thought's sooner or later going to pull in at the terminus where people who _can't_ work aren't afforded any respect. TBF, I don't think that is what you meant but I'd like to think you can see why it could've been read that way.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> <snip>I think it's you that's misreading things on purpose TBH.
> 
> <snip>being on benefits isn't a thing that should automatically erode a persons self esteem. Nor should being in work automatically boost a persons self esteem. Work does not necessarily equate to independance/self respect etc much as being on benefit doesn't necessarily equate to passivity/dependence etc.


 
Got it in one.

BTW genitals are irrelevant to the thread except when somebody's talking bollocks, being a twat/prick/cunt, or acting like a dickhead. cyprusclean if in doubt about the sex of a poster, it is accepted netiquette to use the nonsexist and singular "they" and "them".


----------



## Greebo (Jul 8, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> Thank Frances BTW, for the heads up on how to construct politically correct sentences.


 
Sweetie, I suggest you go and buy yourself some manners at any shop which remains open.  Saying "people ...." instead of "the ...." isn't political correctness, it's recognising that all of us are human beings first and whatever else second.  

I could explain why in further detail, but it would be taking advantage of your apparent social ineptitude.  And derailing the thread.


----------



## cyprusclean (Jul 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I know it's not relevant to what's being talked about here.
> 
> I don't think you'll find a single soul who disagrees with your point about decent wages being a requirement. But you _did_ use a phrase ("the less well off") that could be construed as offensive and, when it was pointed out why it could be taken as offensive, instead of responding with good grace, you chose to get all prickly.
> 
> And the way you seemed to equate working with self respect well, taken to it's conclusion that train of thought's sooner or later going to pull in at the terminus where people who _can't_ work aren't afforded any respect. TBF, I don't think that is what you meant but I'd like to think you can see why it could've been read that way.


 
It's not my problem  how you decide to interpret postings.

Getting wound up about anonymous cyber personalities seems weird to me.   Why should black writing on a screen matter so much?


----------



## cyprusclean (Jul 8, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Sweetie, I suggest you go and buy yourself some manners at any shop which remains open. Saying "people ...." instead of "the ...." isn't political correctness, it's recognising that all of us are human beings first and whatever else second.
> 
> I could explain why in further detail, but it would be taking advantage of your apparent social ineptitude. And derailing the thread.


 
  Bye then. C ya.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 8, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> <snip> Why should black writing on a screen matter so much?


 
I'll try to make this simple for you. Those words are typed by a flesh and blood human being, who breathes, defecates, pisses, and bleeds, just as you do.

Edited to add: Even if this version of you is merely one persona, think about how many different masks you wear in real life; each one of those can at times be merely a persona.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 8, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> It's not my problem how you decide to interpret postings.
> 
> Getting wound up about anonymous cyber personalities seems weird to me. on* Why should black writing* *a screen matter so much?*


 
No, it's not your problem how people interpret your posts - _But,  _if you don't want your posts to be misconstrued then it might be an idea to at least consider expressing yourself better. Why should writing on a screen matter? It doesn't matter a jot. Except we all choose to post here so it must matter at least somewhat or we wouldn't fucking waste our time doing it would we? FWIW, I wasn't trying to give you a hard time but, TBH, now you're coming across as nothing so much as one of those thick as shit types who's only response to (even legitimate and constructive criticism) is to get all defensive and then choose to employ attack as the favoured form of defence. A bit like a crustacean.

Take your ball home. All the way back to Cyprus if needs be. And I hope it pops.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 9, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> It's not my problem  how you decide to interpret postings.
> 
> Getting wound up about anonymous cyber personalities seems weird to me.   Why should black writing on a screen matter so much?


I think you're new here. 

Please take this as a word to the wise, but in picking a fight (don't argue: that's EXACTLY what it looks like) with Greebo, you are tilting at the wrong windmills. 

Also, just so you know, everybody on Urban ducks and covers their eyes when she calls another poster "sweetie" - it does not bode well.  HTH


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> He misread that subjectively. There are soul destroying jobs, no doubt about it.
> I don't know if UK benefits are higher than wages/salaries, the free bus pass being a good thing for pensioners, ("well off" included?).
> 
> But in a country like Germany for instance, benefits equate with living on the bread line.


 
No, they don't, unless you exceed the period of coverage that your prior contributions buy you, and even after reform then it's *still* more than here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> You seem to have taken that personally.


 
If you use language that residualises a bloc of people to a single attribute, their (lack of) economic status, for example, you should expect people to react to your ignorance.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 9, 2013)

http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=2744 Tweet today using hashtag ‎#w2w2013


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> Let's leave it at then, shall we?
> 
> I don't come here for fights and gratuitous insults.
> 
> I've realised it's like walking on hot coals, entering threads on social issues.


 
Only if what you've got to say is anodyne, poorly-conceived or stupid.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> Still living in the dark ages as far as a decent living wage is concerned. No political party has manged to crack that one yet.


 
No political party in the last 30 years has *wanted* to "crack that one".  It doesn't fit to neoliberal capitalism's requirement for a large pool of excess labour.  Gestures get made, such as the so-called "national minimum wage" (actually a national minimum hourly rate), but that's all they are.



> I'd say most people don't want to be on benefits, preferring instead to control their own destinies, in as much as that is possible.


 
Better benefits than an unclear alternative where the only control you may have over your destiny is whether you thieve or starve.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> She.
> 
> But I think it's you that's misreading things on purpose TBH. And then slavering a load of irrelevent bollocks about Germany.


 
Fair point about irrelevancy. The Hartz reforms, and the German social security system _per se_, is different enough from ours that they're not immediately comparable. They, for example, pay your "dole" at a percentage of your previous salary if you've made enough contributions. Here it's a low flat rate from start to finish.



> Sometimes in the UK, people can be better off on benefits than in work _but only coz wages are so woefully low._ Not coz benefits are generous, far from it. And the amount of people who are on in work rather than out of work benefits bears witness to that. But that's not even the point, all Greebo was saying (if I've got it right) is that being on benefits isn't a thing that should automatically erode a persons self esteem. Nor should being in work automatically boost a persons self esteem. Work does not necessarily equate to independance/self respect etc much as being on benefit doesn't necessarily equate to passivity/dependence etc.


 
Quite. That some people feel that others should have less self-esteem because they're "on benefits" is merely a result of an adherence to a "Protestant work ethic" that went out-of-date around the same time as putative full employment did, and a result of buying into defining oneself through what one does, not through who one is.


----------



## treelover (Jul 9, 2013)

Benefits and Work is reporting new info that people on ESA are going to be forced to see DWP doctors for health advice,


really going back in time..


----------



## existentialist (Jul 10, 2013)

treelover said:


> Benefits and Work is reporting new info that people on ESA are going to be forced to see DWP doctors for health advice,
> 
> 
> really going back in time..


Let us at least hope that these will be properly qualified doctors.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 10, 2013)

Green charities today: Workfare in the Fresh Air http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=2752  @*tcvtweets* @*groundworkuk* Today's online action


----------



## treelover (Jul 10, 2013)

keep up the great work..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 10, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Let us at least hope that these will be properly qualified doctors.


 
I'm willing to bet that they won't mostly be doctors, they'll be "health professionals".


----------



## BigTom (Jul 10, 2013)

Universal Credit is only going to 10 JCPs in October, and still only for single people on JSA... but the Claimant Commitment (30 or 35hrs/week of jobsearch crap) is rolling out everywhere, and pilots for in work conditionality will start - workfare for workers begins.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/universal-credit-roll-out-from-october-2013

I wonder if they'll give up UC before 2015, or if Labour will drop it after? I doubt it really but how much more can it take? The more and more that it gets delayed and downgraded the more likely it is to be dropped completely surely? Or maybe I'm just too sensible for politics.


----------



## Cloo (Jul 24, 2013)

We were going to take a family friend on holiday with us in a few weeks but she probably can't come now because all her benefits have been stopped and she'll have to be available for atos almost certainly while we were going to be away. Because ill people shouldn't have anything nice happen to them.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 24, 2013)

Cloo said:


> We were going to take a family friend on holiday with us in a few weeks but she probably can't come now because all her benefits have been stopped and she'll have to be available for atos almost certainly while we were going to be away.<snip>


 
The silly thing is that a break would probably do your friend the world of good.


----------



## Cloo (Jul 24, 2013)

I know... last time my parents took her put there (we're going to their house on Slovakia) my mum commented that her sleep pattern and health seemed better.


----------



## treelover (Jul 24, 2013)

In Germany sick people are allowed periods of convalescence(described as 'Convo') and in France, here they are forced to work, lose their benefits, etc, when will the public wake up?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> In Germany sick people are allowed periods of convalescence(described as 'Convo') and in France, here they are forced to work, lose their benefits, etc, when will the public wake up?


 
As ever, not until very bad things have happened.


----------



## treelover (Jul 26, 2013)

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DP_FIMZbbFM?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>




> *Published on 25 Jul 2013 *
> Dan is 32 and disabled, this is his story of his experience with ATOS, the Council Tax, and the Bedroom Tax.


 
video made by some LU members, worth watching, please share


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 30, 2013)

Truth and lies about poverty

http://www.jointpublicissues.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Truth-And-Lies-Report-smaller.pdf


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jul/30/bedroom-tax-legal-high-court

legal challenge on bedroom tax and disabled adults fails


----------



## existentialist (Jul 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jul/30/bedroom-tax-legal-high-court
> 
> legal challenge on bedroom tax and disabled adults fails


 
Complete with triumphalist press release from DWP, blech.


----------



## treelover (Aug 2, 2013)

> Report Calls For Expansion Of Residential Workfare For
> Unemployed and Disabled People
> ... Posted on July 31, 2013 by johnny void | 95 Comments
> 
> ...


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2013)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk-most-unequal-country-in-the-west-1329614.html

This link is old but it's doing the rounds on FB etc, seemed pertinent to this thread



> UK most unequal country in the West
> 
> Huge gap between rich and poor in Britain is the same as Nigeria and worse than Ethiopia, UN report reveals
> 
> ...


----------



## Cloo (Aug 8, 2013)

Cloo said:


> We were going to take a family friend on holiday with us in a few weeks but she probably can't come now because all her benefits have been stopped and she'll have to be available for atos almost certainly while we were going to be away. Because ill people shouldn't have anything nice happen to them.


Good news is that our friend won appeal against dropping of benefits, but she still might be called back suddenly for sundry compulsory crap; at any rate, she has travelled out with my parents now (we're joining them next week) and a neighbour is keeping an eye on her post in case any summons arrive, in which case my parents will sort out sending her back home in time. But hopefully there's such a backlog to clear, she'll get a few weeks to recuperate.


----------



## treelover (Aug 21, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/21/atos-centre-pilgrimage-miracles


Miracles happen, raising the dead/curing the sick, fantastic protest at Liverpool ATOS Centre


----------



## treelover (Aug 21, 2013)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 24, 2013)

> *Citizens Advice issue emergency guide to surviving with no food or money as impact of welfare cuts is laid bare*
> 
> 24 Aug 2013 08:00
> THE charity said it was forced to issue the document after being swamped by pleas for help from people left destitute.


 


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/citizens-advice-issue-emergency-guide-2215005


----------



## treelover (Aug 24, 2013)

> *Tens of thousands set for country-wide protests against Government's 'bedroom tax'*
> 
> *Tens of thousands of people will take part in a "mass sleep out" tonight to protest against the "bedroom tax" and other welfare changes.*
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Aug 24, 2013)

Its on, Evening Standard reporting on it, though using a socialist worker banner on the image and not very good article.

btw2, for twitter, its https://twitter.com/TheMassSleepOut


----------



## treelover (Aug 24, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/citizens-advice-issue-emergency-guide-2215005


 

shocking, will circulate


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 24, 2013)

*Citizens Advice Scotland. 

In Crisis, A survival Guide. 
Minister for Housing and Welfare launches Stirling survival guide for people who have no food and no money 

http://www.cas.org.uk/news/minister...survival-guide-people-who-have-no-food-and-no

pdf link. 
http://www.cas.org.uk/system/files/In Crisis A Survival Guide august 2013.pdf*


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2013)

Why widescreen TVs tell us nothing about a family’s food budget – a few basic sums for Jamie Oliver

One going for 99p on ebay last time I looked.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 3, 2013)

15,000 unpaid 'jobs' created by Morrissons and Cadbury's http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/cadbury-and-morrisons-to-help-launch-mass-workfare/

This stuff is fucking awful and infuriating. There is no reason for them not to either, they won't stop until people burn down factories and supermarkets.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 4, 2013)

> Disabled activists from grassroots campaigns Disabled People Against Cuts (DPAC), Black Triangle and Mental Health Resistance Network have occupied the BBC building in London to protest against the role the media are playing in worsening attitudes towards disabled people and a complete failure to give space to the realities of what this government are doing to disabled people.


http://dpac.uk.net/2013/09/for-immmediate-release-dpac-do-the-bbc/#sthash.s63srAYh.dpuf


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 5, 2013)

Ian Duncan Cunt has just been on R4, flanneling about the Universal Credit clusterfuck.

The next topic under discussion on the Toadie prog was the cast for the "50 Shades Of Grey" adaptation - bringing to mind not only the shite novel writing of IBS, but also the fact that there's considerably less sadism and people getting fucked about in the EL James book.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 6, 2013)

*http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/...esperate-people-to-food-banks-claims-charity/

The DWP is refusing to refer desperate benefits claimants to food banks, according to the country’s largest operator. The Trussell Trust has claimed that Iain Duncan Smith’s department has “privately reneged” on an agreement for Jobcentres to refer needy claimants using an agreed procedure — and banned the collection key data on food bank use.

After ignorant attempts by a Tory minister to blame increased food bank use on charities, it has emerged that the DWP have dropped the requirement for staff to record the reason for a food bank referral and to provide claimants with vouchers — meaning that food banks cannot assess need at the other end. Conveniently enough, this also reduces the amount of embarrassing statistical data in circulation on food banks.*


----------



## treelover (Sep 6, 2013)

> *Why Iain Duncan Smith is no longer a quiet man but a dangerous one*
> His response to the damning NAO report on universal credit shows that he appears to rely on his gut feeling rather than facts
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/06/iain-duncan-smith-quiet-dangerous


 



Smith gets the Marina Hyde treatment, savage...


----------



## treelover (Sep 8, 2013)

> Clause 99, Catch 22 – The ESA Mandatory Second Revision and Appeals
> 
> http://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/735/


 

Just read this, its horrendous, from October if you need to appeal a decision on ESA,  you won't immediately be able to, the DWP will instead have a mandatory review which at present has no set time limit, during this phase you will not receive any money at all, as ESA passports you onto Housing Benefit, etc, there is a danger you won't receive that without a fight, and of course HB is to be wrapped up with Universal Credit.

this against a background where CABs are shutting down and legal aid cut.


----------



## 8115 (Sep 8, 2013)

J Ed said:


> *http://politicalscrapbook.net/2013/...esperate-people-to-food-banks-claims-charity/
> 
> The DWP is refusing to refer desperate benefits claimants to food banks, according to the country’s largest operator. The Trussell Trust has claimed that Iain Duncan Smith’s department has “privately reneged” on an agreement for Jobcentres to refer needy claimants using an agreed procedure — and banned the collection key data on food bank use.
> 
> After ignorant attempts by a Tory minister to blame increased food bank use on charities, it has emerged that the DWP have dropped the requirement for staff to record the reason for a food bank referral and to provide claimants with vouchers — meaning that food banks cannot assess need at the other end. Conveniently enough, this also reduces the amount of embarrassing statistical data in circulation on food banks.*


If this is true, it's absolutely criminal.


----------



## treelover (Sep 8, 2013)

they are killing people, meanwhile thousands march against a few hundred boneheads.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 8, 2013)

treelover said:


> they are killing people, meanwhile thousands march against a few hundred boneheads.



Both are important.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 8, 2013)




----------



## treelover (Sep 8, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Both are important.


 
Maybe so, but one has much greater support than the other, in fact its basically the victims of welfare cuts/harassment who are left to fend for themselves, the Peoples Assembly is a case in point, the workshop on benefits, etc was an afterthought and held in a Marquee in the rain.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 8, 2013)

treelover said:


> Maybe so, but one has much greater support than the other, in fact its basically the victims of welfare cuts/harassment who are left to fend for themselves, the Peoples Assembly is a case in point, the workshop on benefits, etc was an afterthought and held in a Marquee in the rain.



That's because party politics tend to be general, even among the supposed left.  Most of them are afraid to take a stand on anything, or to make any commitment that they can't later escape from.  The peoples' Assembly has the same problem. It wants to appeal to the widest possible base, so it doesn't risk falling in behind anything it knows might be tricky, hence them being happy to go on about the Bedroom Tax, but not about social security in general, just in case the media use it as a "you supports scroungers" stick to beat them with.

I expect *nothing* from those involved in party politics, because even the most socially-committed tend to also have their eyes to the main chance.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2013)

Paraphrased from the above video, from the Work and Pensions Minister, Mark Hoban, on benefit sanctions:

'This government, yes this government removed the targets that had been put in place by the previous government'.

If true, then pretty damning on the last Labour, yes Labour government?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 8, 2013)

I'm in no way sticking op for the last govt, but anecdotally I've been hearing a lot more about people being sanctioned since these clowns got in.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 8, 2013)

This govt hasn't removed targets anyway, whether they were in place under labour or not. They also massively increased the length of sanctions. They are, as we all know, lying scum.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 9, 2013)

This government removed *official* targets, and then imposed unofficial regional and local "aspirations" - the kind of "aspirations" that get you a lousy annual performance review, and ultimately the sack, if you fail to live up to them.
All the Cuntalition has done is use NewSpeak in an attempt to flim-flam people.  Same old dog-fuckers, whichever colour rosette they wear.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 9, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> This government removed *official* targets, and then imposed unofficial regional and local "aspirations" - the kind of "aspirations" that get you a lousy annual performance review, and ultimately the sack, if you fail to live up to them.
> All the Cuntalition has done is use NewSpeak in an attempt to flim-flam people.  Same old dog-fuckers, whichever colour rosette they wear.


Yeah. Which poses a bit of a problem, come election time. It's all very gratifying to give them the "plague on all your houses" treatment when they come grovelling for our votes, but WTF do you do in an election when *nobody's* really trustworthy or electable?

I wrote a blistering email to my local MP (Simon Hart) about this lobbying bill, and have just had some bit of anodyne boilerplate sent by by way of response. Nothing we do, within the system at least, is going to change the way these cunts operate, is it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 9, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Yeah. Which poses a bit of a problem, come election time. It's all very gratifying to give them the "plague on all your houses" treatment when they come grovelling for our votes, but WTF do you do in an election when *nobody's* really trustworthy or electable?
> 
> I wrote a blistering email to my local MP (Simon Hart) about this lobbying bill, and have just had some bit of anodyne boilerplate sent by by way of response. Nothing we do, within the system at least, is going to change the way these cunts operate, is it?



The current electoral system pretty much stitches us into a cycle of "this cunt, that cunt, then the next cunt", so what we need to do, outwith disposing of the current system entirely, is to agitate, and agitate *massively*, for ballot papers to include a "none of the above" option.
While this wouldn't immediately solve the issue, it would force the Establishment to do one of two things:

To cede some power back to "the people" in the face of their shills having no mandate, or
To seize power outwith the constitution.

If they chose the latter option, we (the people) would no longer be bound by our obligations to the Social Contract, and could resile from them as easily as the state has been doing for the last 30 years.
If they chose the former option, we'd have mechanisms by which to escape the "this cunt, that cunt, then the next cunt" problem.


Utopian, I know.


----------



## treelover (Sep 9, 2013)

> *Bradford Council to probe work ‘disability tests’*
> 
> 6:00am Monday 9th September 2013 in  By Claire Armstrong, T&A Reporter
> A full-scale investigation into controversial Government disability assessments is to be started by Bradford Council – the first local authority believed to be doing so.
> ...


 

Some really positive news for a change, Bradford Council(which is NOC and must mean Tories have supported it) has savaged the WCA and voted in full council to robustly investigate it and maybe call for evidence from victims,

Respect initiated it, so kudos to them..


----------



## J Ed (Sep 10, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24021037



> Attitudes to unemployment and to welfare payments have softened, a major survey of the public mood suggests.
> 
> The annual British Social Attitudes Report - which questioned more than 3,000 people for more than an hour - found 51% said benefits were too high in 2012, down from 62% in 2011.


----------



## treelover (Sep 11, 2013)

http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/

Sue Marsh of Diary of a Benefit Scrounger' blog and other Spartacus members had a 45 minute meeting with Mark Hoban yesterday, Tuesday, there is a summary here, not sure what to make of it, Sue got a lot of flak from DPAC etc, for not demanding WCA abolition.


on first reading of the summary of the meeting, I have some concerns Sue/Spartacus are doing the policing of the WCA, bit close for comfort, etc.


----------



## treelover (Sep 11, 2013)

> *Protests and government extremism*
> Posted on September 5, 2013  by Kate B
> *From yesterday’s DPAC, Black Triangle and Mental Health Resistance Network action in central London:*
> So interesting that the Taxpayers’ Alliance got a free, media-wide pass yesterday to bitch again about people on benefits – on the very day that disabled protestors turned out in numbers in central London to demonstrate against the benefit and care cuts that are excluding them from work and from life (let’s not forget, what with all this Tory-Lib Dem-Labour faffing about the joys and rewards and glories of work, that some people can’t work, but still deserve and want to live. Which means they’re entitled to benefits). So. Pity, really, that I didn’t see Matthew Sinclair skulking round Westminster yesterday (I presume he lives in this country, or at least visits it). I may just have walked on over and offered to shove the morning’s various ironies right up his arse (I speak metaphorically, I am sure).
> http://dpac.uk.net/2013/09/protests-and-government-extremism-kate-belgrave/


 

Excellent article here on DPAC's week of action

note media blackout...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 11, 2013)

What feckin next... The start of the closing down of local Jobcentres to make people traipse to the bigger towns/cities to sign on perhaps..? I despise these fucking think tanks..!!

Policy Exchange: Unemployed people should be made to commute for up to 90 minutes - just to sign on, according to David Cameron's favourite think tank.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 11, 2013)

Wtf is that? How dues a 90 minute commute to giving sign on going to boost confidence? Breaking down barriers about commutes? Surely all anyone will learn is just how shit a long commute is.
Cost to be borne by jcps, great. It's already a nightmare to get your work programme/workfare/job interview travel costs reimbursed, plus if it did happen it would cost a bomb.
Probably make it back in sanctions for people whose train was delayed mind.
Fucking scum are policy exchange, their place on the wall has long been reserved.


----------



## 8115 (Sep 11, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> What feckin next... The start of the closing down of local Jobcentres to make people traipse to the bigger towns/cities to sign on perhaps..? I despise these fucking think tanks..!!
> 
> Policy Exchange: Unemployed people should be made to commute for up to 90 minutes - just to sign on, according to David Cameron's favourite think tank.


It's because they think that people's friends and family are a bad influence.  Deliberately breaking up communities.  You couldn't make it up.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 11, 2013)

8115 said:


> It's because they think that people's friends and family are a bad influence.  Deliberately breaking up communities.  You couldn't make it up.



True.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...more-1000-challenging-families-helped-5907883



> Mr Cameron said: “I am determined that we help people to get on in life including those families where things may be going wrong.



Nothing to do with the JCP or Policy Exchange though.


----------



## 8115 (Sep 11, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> True.
> 
> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...more-1000-challenging-families-helped-5907883
> 
> ...


No, it said in the I today that Policy Exchange said their friends and families are a negative influence, hence getting people to travel to a job centre.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 11, 2013)

Fair enough.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 11, 2013)

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm feeling progressively more hand-spitty, black-flag-hoisty and throat-slitty by the day.


----------



## 8115 (Sep 11, 2013)

The report is called "Cultures of Dependency: Fact, fiction, solutions" ffs. 



> Cultures of Dependency says that in the future employment support must better understand the pressures that families, social networks and communities put on unemployed people


----------



## 8115 (Sep 11, 2013)

weepiper said:


> I don't know anyone else, but I'm feeling progressively more hand-spitty, black-flag-hoisty and throat-slitty by the day.


I'm in


----------



## 8115 (Sep 11, 2013)

It's just so shit.  Such a tidal wave of neo-liberal shit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> What feckin next... The start of the closing down of local Jobcentres to make people traipse to the bigger towns/cities to sign on perhaps..? I despise these fucking think tanks..!!
> 
> Policy Exchange: Unemployed people should be made to commute for up to 90 minutes - just to sign on, according to David Cameron's favourite think tank.



It's already 60 minutes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Wtf is that? How dues a 90 minute commute to giving sign on going to boost confidence? Breaking down barriers about commutes? Surely all anyone will learn is just how shit a long commute is.
> Cost to be borne by jcps, great. It's already a nightmare to get your work programme/workfare/job interview travel costs reimbursed, plus if it did happen it would cost a bomb.



It was a nightmare 20 years ago, when the reimbursement system was *much* simpler.  Nowadays, from what I'm told, there's so many extra little rules, plus the whim of the JCP staff, that only about 50% of claimants get their fares back. 



> Probably make it back in sanctions for people whose train was delayed mind.
> Fucking scum are policy exchange, their place on the wall has long been reserved.



Policy Exchange are the epitome of what "think tanks" have become - wholly-owned subsidiaries of corporate and political power.  Instead of formulating policy on the basis of what is needed by the people, policy is *nakedly* formulated solely to suit the needs of power.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2013)

8115 said:


> No, it said in the I today that Policy Exchange said their friends and families are a negative influence, hence getting people to travel to a job centre.



With regard to the people I know who are 25 miles or more from their nearest job centre, sometimes it's only through the intervention of their friends and families that they can get to the Job Centre to sign on, or get to interviews, given the scarcity of rural public transdport, and the prohibitive cost of private transport.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2013)

weepiper said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but I'm feeling progressively more hand-spitty, black-flag-hoisty and throat-slitty by the day.



The Jolly Roger is, of course, an acceptable substitute for a plain black flag (and would probably be a bit more "cred" with your kids  ).
I wouldn't slit throats, though.  I'd give the children of privilege a taste of their own medicine - two years on benefits, having to fulfill all those obligations they so happily pile on the likes of us.
We slit their throats only if they cheat.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 12, 2013)

weepiper said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but I'm feeling progressively more hand-spitty, black-flag-hoisty and throat-slitty by the day.


Better that than feeling wrist-slitty.


----------



## BigTom (Sep 12, 2013)

My local job centre had its windows put in today by a claimant who had been sanctioned. http://birminghamagainstthecuts.wor...ay-after-sanctioned-claimant-smashes-windows/

No staff were hurt though, not even the G4S security scum.


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2013)

> *People Like Us*
> The shocking truth about 'Benefits Britain' is that *people receiving benefits are just like us.*
> The real story behind the scaremongering is that many UK families rely on benefits and tax credits to top up low pay, to provide a lifeline during tough times or to manage unexpected life changes such as a disability or illness.
> The current debate around social security is failing ordinary families. In our latest campaign we want to remind politicians that when they talk about benefit claimants we're talking about real people, real families and real children.
> ...


 

CPAG start a media/public campaign 'Peiople like us to challenge 'scrounger' myths, etc.

CPAG used to be total Blairites, etc but good for them on this

good to see the term 'welfare' being kicked into the long grass...


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2013)




----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2013)

> this is a email address of a UN official she wants to hear storys of how atos and dwp have effected disabled people, and she is doing an investigation into the breach of human rights by atos, please send her your storys of the awful experiances you have recieved via atos srhousing@ohchr.org


 
posted on FB, not sure about provenance but there are others like it, she is hoping to expand her report now to other benefit issues.


----------



## Schmetterling (Sep 13, 2013)

8115 said:


> It's because they think that people's friends and family are a bad influence.  Deliberately breaking up communities.  You couldn't make it up.


 
It is also about making claimants/voters too exhausted for dissent and action!

There was this article http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/11/food-bank-britain-didnt-ask-be-ill about food banks in The Guardian yesterday - I am so, so angry about what is being done to people! So angry!


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2013)

couldn't say it a few years ago, but you really really are not the only one now, I sense a growing anger at how the most vulnerable are being treated.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2013)

treelover said:


> CPAG start a media/public campaign 'Peiople like us to challenge 'scrounger' myths, etc.
> 
> CPAG used to be total Blairites, etc but good for them on this
> 
> good to see the term 'welfare' being kicked into the long grass...



Now if only they'd pay for a hit on their former Chairman, Frank "mad neo-Victorian cunt" Field.


----------



## treelover (Sep 16, 2013)

> *Another ‘crackdown’ on benefit fraud, yet it accounts for just 0.7 per cent of welfare budget*
> By James Bloodworth | Published: September 16, 2013
> 
> http://www.leftfootforward.org/2013...unts-for-just-0-7-per-cent-of-welfare-budget/


 
DPP: up to ten years for benefit fraud!

Keir Starmer(former leftist and Mclibel laywer) now Director of Public Prosecutions has said that 'benefit cheats' can expect up to ten years in prison, benefit fraud is now classed as 'fraud' and under Grayling, the DWP are no longer the prosecuting authority that has now been passed to the  CPS who will demand 'robust' sentencing under guidance from Starmer. The media is reporting this as ten years for fradsters, yet one can surmise no one will get ten years, it is of course another turn of the screw to discipline the workforce and the move to demonise/criminalising claimants, shame on Starmer, Owen Jones speaks out on the BBC.


----------



## treelover (Sep 16, 2013)

Owen Jones speaking out(bravely) on the issue

btw, the BBC seem to love all this, first item on some hourly broadcasts


----------



## treelover (Sep 16, 2013)

> The head of Citizens Advice warned prosecutors of not excessively punishing those who had made innocent mistakes or been caught unawares by ongoing and "fiendishly complicated" changes to the benefit system. *Labour called for even stronger penalties*.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/16/benefit-cheats-jail-terms


 


> Labour's shadow attorney general, Emily Thornberry, said the punishments for such fraud, including bank fraud, should be even higher.
> "Beneath all the spin, this announcement is really an admission that to date, the authorities have not been using the most robust legislation out there to tackle fraud.
> "That it has taken the government three years to address this is a sign of its complacency and incompetence. I am in favour of tougher sentences for all types of fraud, from benefit fraud to banking fraud, and would like to see the maximum penalty extended from 10 years to 14 years, bringing it in line with sentencing for other economic crimes such as money laundering. Today's announcement falls far short of that," she said.


 

ffs....


btw, thread has had over 1000 new views in a couple of weeks, good news.


----------



## treelover (Sep 16, 2013)

> *Raquel Rolnik, special rapporteur for  the UN has called for the UK government to scrap the Bedroom Tax. She will, it is widely reported, also call for them to scrap the Benefit Cap. They are unlawful under every global convention on human rights.
> 
> She is now asking for you all to send in your stories and evidence relating to ESA, Atos and Work Capability Assessments. I want to beg every last one of you who has written to me, who has shared your story, who has filled in a DWP form, who has been mistreated and let down to write to her. *
> 
> ...


 
Right, big news, the U/N Rapporteur is definitely now extending her remit as apparently she has been shocked by the scale, depth and brutality of the Govts welfare reforms, especially that of the WCA/ATOS medicals, this is powerful stuff, get emailing/researching.


I always thought it would take something global to expose what is going on does not pass any notion of decency and genuine(not N/L/faux) fairness


----------



## treelover (Sep 18, 2013)

> _wants to examine all of the recent welfare changes and welcomes personal stories about the WCA and how it is affecting people. This is because concerns have been raised about the number of WCA related deaths due to deteriorating health or suicide._
> “_Once these accounts are collated the evidence will be presented to the United Nations General Council in March.
> “You can email Raquel Rolnik about your experiences with Atos, the WCA or any other welfare reform issue at_ srhousing@ohchr.org


 

latest, its going to the U.N General Council!


----------



## Greebo (Sep 18, 2013)

treelover said:


> latest, its going to the U.N General Council!


Great news.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2013)

treelover said:


> latest, its going to the U.N General Council!



You can bet it isn't and *won't* be just the Tories and their media backers fulminating against any negative findings, as well as against the idea that the general council might receive such a report at all. All of the mainstream political parties will.
They'll do so on two bases, AFAICS.
1) On the basis that it's external interference that threatens the sovereignty of Parliament (a spurious argument, but the media, especially the right-wing media, will run with it).
2) On the basis that given the overwhelming neoliberal bent of the politics of the mainstream parties, their *policies* will be implicitly (and perhaps explicitly) criticised by any adverse findings in the report, and will be shown up as the inhumane and sometimes fatal piles of shit that they are.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 19, 2013)

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/grieving-mum-who-lost-nine-year-old-2284300



> A GRIEVING mother has been hit by the bedroom tax – after her son died in a house fire.
> 
> Sheree McGill, 36, has been told she will have to pay the hated charge because nine-year-old Evan’s tragic death has left her house “under-occupied”.
> 
> ...


----------



## pogo 10 (Sep 19, 2013)

8115 said:


> It's because they think that people's friends and family are a bad influence.  Deliberately breaking up communities.  You couldn't make it up.


Ffs. Wankers.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 19, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You can bet it isn't and *won't* be just the Tories and their media backers fulminating against any negative findings, as well as against the idea that the general council might receive such a report at all. All of the mainstream political parties will.
> They'll do so on two bases, AFAICS.
> 1) On the basis that it's external interference that threatens the sovereignty of Parliament (a spurious argument, but the media, especially the right-wing media, will run with it).
> 2) On the basis that given the overwhelming neoliberal bent of the politics of the mainstream parties, their *policies* will be implicitly (and perhaps explicitly) criticised by any adverse findings in the report, and will be shown up as the inhumane and sometimes fatal piles of shit that they are.


If they won't listen to us.. why the hell would they listen to anyone from the UN.


 Should the government scrap their bedroom tax policy?

88%    Yes
12%    No


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 19, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> If they won't listen to us.. why the hell would they listen to anyone from the UN.
> 
> Should the government scrap their bedroom tax policy?
> 
> ...



If they do, they'll only replace it with something equally as vicious


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 19, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> If they do, they'll only replace it with something equally as vicious


Spare room tax for everyone in social housing like New South Wales perhaps?



> *PUBLIC housing tenants with spare bedrooms will be charged a weekly tax as the state government commits to moving 500 people a year into smaller accommodation. *
> Community Services Minister Pru Goward will today announce details of the controversial bed tax, which will be charged to all public housing tenants who have an extra bedroom and refuse to move to a smaller property.
> 
> Singles with extra bedrooms will be charged an extra $20 a week, and couples will be charged an extra $30 a week under the tax.


----------



## treelover (Sep 19, 2013)

I would love for the civil servants, etc who constructed the WCA as well as the politicians to have to attend some sort of investigation into it.


----------



## treelover (Sep 19, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> Spare room tax for everyone in social housing like New South Wales perhaps?


 
Australia is at the 'cutting edge' of welfare cuts/harassment, etc, Howard wanted the right for officials to be able to enter disabled claimants homes at any time, without permission, N/L went there many times for ideas/collaboration and together were central to the global 'welfare reform' movement,

Expect even more from Abbot.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 20, 2013)

J Ed said:


> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/grieving-mum-who-lost-nine-year-old-2284300



Grrrrrr...


----------



## treelover (Sep 22, 2013)

> *Labour cannot be defenders of status quo on welfare, says Liam Byrne*
> Shadow work and pensions secretary claims party could save £5bn from benefits bill by raising employment levels
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/19/benefits-employment-liam-byrne


 


Liam Bryne is to outline plans for benefits if they come to power, very right wing blairite stuff, disability insurance for disabled people, time limited benefits, and probably one of the most significant,(which some of us have been predicting) 'localisation of welfare, some of this is backed up by stats from the 'left leaning, IPPR, wtf, how can what they do be in anyway described as left?

Its a Wintour article as well which means no comments...


----------



## treelover (Sep 22, 2013)

http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blo...unce-plans-to-sack-atos-and.html#comment-form


Sue Marsh, "Diary of a benefit scrounger' blog/campaigner" seems to be have taken it by it in relation to the plans for disabled people.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 22, 2013)

treelover said:


> http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blo...unce-plans-to-sack-atos-and.html#comment-form
> 
> 
> Sue Marsh, "Diary of a benefit scrounger' blog/campaigner" seems to be have taken it by it in relation to the plans for disabled people.



Yeah, I ain't gonna get excited.  Labour dreamt up half of these ideas in the first place, and you only need to look back on the Parliamentary debates and voting records to see just how much they gave a shit then (with a few exceptions like Gilmore and a few others, but I can't remember their names)


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 22, 2013)

Who are all those dicks in the comments bit thinking it's good? They're going to get rid of Atos? So what, they'll only bring some other wankers in to administer the WCA anyway. I'm not sticking up for Atos in any way, but most of the problems people are having started when the WCA replaced the PCA not when Atos first came on the scene (which was some years earlier).


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 22, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Who are all those dicks in the comments bit thinking it's good? They're going to get rid of Atos? So what, they'll only bring some other wankers in to administer the WCA anyway. I'm not sticking up for Atos in anyway, but most of the problems people are having started when the WCA replaced the PCA not when Atos first came on the scene (which was some years earlier).



Have you read them all?

These lot don't seem overly optimistic



> Wheelie21 September 2013 18:51
> I dunno. I'm still deeply skeptical of pre-election promises.
> 
> Peter Farrington21 September 2013 19:01
> ...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 22, 2013)

True, there's a few dissenters.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 22, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> True, there's a few dissenters.



Some of us are old enough to remember nu Labour, prior to winning the '97 election, promising to get rid of JSA.

16 years later...


----------



## treelover (Sep 22, 2013)

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/

some new horrors highlighted on the Voids site, inc the DWP boasting to employers that UC will get them cheap flexible labour.


----------



## Urbanblues (Sep 22, 2013)

I met with Liam Byrne last week at the TUC and stated that getting rid of ATOS was only part of the problem; that the WCA needed scrapping and replacing with a transparent and fair assessment. Byrne agreed with this. I'm guessing (or is that hoping) that today's announcements on ATOS are only part of an overhaul of assessments.

The issue of standardising benefits and services criteria also came up in the discussion. An idea of having one assessment to cover DLA/PIP, ESA, A2W, support packages (also making these portable), etc was discussed. Byrne agreed that constant assessments were wrong.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 22, 2013)

Urbanblues said:


> I met with Liam Byrne last week at the TUC and stated that getting rid of ATOS was only part of the problem; that the WCA needed scrapping and replacing with a transparent and fair assessment. Byrne agreed with this. <snip> Byrne agreed that constant assessments were wrong.


The thing which you need to remember about Liam Byrne is that when he was in a position to actually do anything for disabled people or carers, he did nothing.  I don't blame him for being a careerist politician, I blame myself for ever having expected better of him.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 22, 2013)

Yeah, they're all very good at sitting there agreeing with you, but has anyone looked at his voting record or has he put his views out there anywhere?


----------



## BigTom (Sep 26, 2013)

More attacks on job centres - links to 5 newspaper articles from the past month on this reddit thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingd...attacks_on_job_centres_with_the_last_4_weeks/

Weepiper's not the only one feeling the rage by any means.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 26, 2013)

BigTom said:


> More attacks on job centres - links to 5 newspaper articles from the past month on this reddit thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingd...attacks_on_job_centres_with_the_last_4_weeks/
> 
> Weepiper's not the only one feeling the rage by any means.



Some utter douche nozzles on that reddit thread.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 28, 2013)

> *Strangely enough the DWP Press Office
> didn't go to town on this top story....*
> 
> 
> ...


http://ilegal.org.uk/thread/8150




> *Fraud investigator told to expect jail over £885,000 tax con *
> 25 Sep 2013 16:54
> Elizabeth Lewis, 38, warned she faces 'immediate custodial sentence' after being found guilty of four counts of fraud after trial at Cardiff Crown



http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/fraud-investigator-told-expect-jail-6094777


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 1, 2013)

The Mirror continue to ramp it up...


----------



## treelover (Oct 1, 2013)

> _There were also opportunities to meet with people from various disability charities such as RNIB, for whom Sue was on a panel at a fringe event, Mind and Scope. Sue Marsh works her backside off. She doesn't do it for any monetary gain, fame or notoriety. "The Marsh", as I refer to her, does it for every single claimant affected by ESA and DLA changes. Sue does work even when she's poorly in hospital. And you know what? Not once did I see her complain about pain. I think I can safely say she ran on adrenaline throughout the conference. However, her mobility scooter driving skills did have myself and Stef laughing lots!_
> http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/


 
I know plenty of people have concerns about the disability benefits campaigner Sue Marsh's closeness to the LP, etc,(she is a member but much more) but its worth reading this to see just how much she does despite having a terrible condition.

though it does show just how close she is to the leadership, etc and the LP


----------



## treelover (Oct 1, 2013)

> _We met Liam Byrne, Dame Anne Begg, Anne McGuire, Sheila Gilmore, Lord Glasman, Jon Cruddas and several other political figures including John Prescott and Alastair Campbell. _


 
No Left M.P's, etc, though this may be the article writers 'starstruck' take on it.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 2, 2013)

Apologies for the slight digression (and the short notice, I've only just heard the trailer) but R4's Money Box 3-3.30pm today will be answering questions about claiming benefits.  It was very heartening to hear benefits being described (for once) as something which any one of us might need at some point in our lives, instead of the usual scrounger rhetoric.


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2013)

hope they use the term, social security,

M/B is usually pretty good


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 2, 2013)

Check this guy out...

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ews/conservative-mp-paul-maynard-food-6124177



> Emergency food parcels should not be given to people – because they could get too reliant on handouts, a Tory MP has said.


 - This seem unambiguous _but_ in all fairness, the "reliant on handouts" bit is the papers own words.



> My main concern for the immediate future is that people have the most money in their pockets as possible.
> “I do not believe that immediate food relief should be the role of the government. We can’t make food banks part of the welfare state.
> “What I don’t want to do is normalise food poverty.


 - this bit though is more interesting. One could read that as him saying that food banks have no place in the welfare state because people should be paid proper benefits. In actual money. That's probably not what he means though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Check this guy out...
> 
> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ews/conservative-mp-paul-maynard-food-6124177
> 
> ...



Yup.  I think he's more worried that the need for food banks will reflect badly on government, and therefore doesn't want them around, full stop.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 3, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yup.  I think he's more worried that the need for food banks will reflect badly on government, and therefore doesn't want them around, full stop.






			
				Tory Cunt said:
			
		

> Paul Maynard, who works for Minister of State Oliver Letwin, said people could start going to food banks out of habit rather than helping themselves.


When he says "helping themselves", is he referring to the five-finger discount option?

Somehow, I doubt it - but I do wonder what these fuckers are expecting people to _actually do_ by way of "helping themselves". Why has no reporter ever said to one of them "Look, sunshine, there are *several million less jobs than people - *if you put something in the water that gave everyone a raging work addiction, they STILL COULDN'T ALL GET WORK" - and kept on saying it every time they wriggled out of answering it?

I am just amazed that these cunts are able to trot out this stuff completely - or so it seems - unchallenged.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 4, 2013)

It's not just tory's who come out with this guff. A self-employed builder friend said to me at the weekend and there's me with multiple, some chronic medical issues: "create your own Job". I'm no whippersnapper either, so what job do I create I asked? Stumped and deathly silence was the response. It's all this CBT idiocy that's hitting the streets and institutions. Think positive by jove and everything will be alright, no matter how many whoops you've jumped through so far. My hoopla stall is in receivership thankyou very much.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 4, 2013)

audiotech said:


> It's not just tory's who come out with this guff. A self-employed builder friend said to me at the weekend and there's me with multiple, some chronic medical issues: "create your own Job". I'm no whippersnapper either, so what job do I create I asked? Stumped and deathly silence was the response. It's all this CBT idiocy that's hitting the streets and institutions. Think positive by jove and everything will be alright, no matter how many whoops you've jumped through so far. My hoopla stall is in receivership thankyou very much.


FWIW, though that might be what people's perception of CBT is, it isn't what it's about. At least not proper CBT - I have no idea what they are doing with the bastardised nonsense that is the IAPT train crash.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 4, 2013)

Was going to say something similar, closest cbt came to that for me was in gathering positive evidence in your life and using that evidence to help change how you think, which is miles away from blind positive thinking.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 4, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Was going to say something similar, closest cbt came to that for me was in gathering positive evidence in your life and using that evidence to help change how you think, which is miles away from blind positive thinking.


That's certainly part of it, but only really a small part. After all, that's really not much of a step up from "pull yourself together and snap out of it" (almost certainly what Tory therapy would look like!)


----------



## Favelado (Oct 7, 2013)

Rumours that Liam fucking Byrne has been sacked. Oh please!


----------



## treelover (Oct 7, 2013)

Esther McVey, now Employment Minister, trouble ahead..


----------



## treelover (Oct 7, 2013)

Favelado said:


> Rumours that Liam fucking Byrne has been sacked. Oh please!


 

Sources, not celebrating till its official.


----------



## Favelado (Oct 7, 2013)

treelover said:


> Sources, not celebrating till its official.



The deputy editor of @totalpolitics whatever that is. Rumour printed on BBC politics site.


----------



## treelover (Oct 7, 2013)

> http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/


 

Sue Marsh seems to think Bryne going is a disaster as "at least he now understands the issues"

I think there is some truth in that, but he would stick to neo-liberal proscriptions

btw Rachel Reeves tipped for his job, another economist

btw2, wonder if Hoban will spill the beans on the incompetence of Duncan Smith.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2013)

Favelado said:


> The deputy editor of @totalpolitics whatever that is. Rumour printed on BBC politics site.


Éoin Clarke now saying it's "official".


----------



## treelover (Oct 7, 2013)

Should we cheer?





too fucking right!


----------



## treelover (Oct 7, 2013)

> IDS is being called in to the Work & Pensions Select Committee answer for persistent misuse of statistics next June
> 
> https://www.change.org/en-GB/petiti...ld-ids-to-account-for-his-use-of-statistics-2


 
Petition reached 100,000 and now action, though in June!, good news, things changing? this wouldn't have happened a few years ago.


----------



## treelover (Oct 7, 2013)




----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 7, 2013)

So Hoban kicked out and replaced by the hideous drone McVey, Mark Prisk also shown the door.

Byrne off shadow bench as well, no news on who is replacing him as yet. Stephen Twigg also demoted apparently.


----------



## treelover (Oct 7, 2013)

Jim Murphy(partly responsible for ESA) moved out of defence, hope he doesn't get shadow Works/Pensions

Byrne stays as HE minister, poor students.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 7, 2013)

treelover said:


> Jim Murphy(partly responsible for ESA) moved out of defence, hope he doesn't get shadow Works/Pensions
> 
> Byrne stays as HE minister, poor students.


Murphy to International Developement.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 7, 2013)

*Leader of the Opposition and Leader of the Labour Party*
Ed Miliband MP

*Shadow Deputy Prime Minister, Party Chair and Shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport*
Harriet Harman MP

*Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer*
Ed Balls MP

*Shadow Foreign Secretary and Chair of General Election Strategy*
Douglas Alexander MP

*Shadow Home Secretary*
Yvette Cooper MP

*Shadow Lord Chancellor, Secretary of State for Justice and Shadow Minister for London*
Sadiq Khan MP

*Opposition Chief Whip*
Rosie Winterton MP

*Shadow Secretary of State for Health*
Andy Burnham MP
*
Shadow Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills*
Chuka Umunna MP

*Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions *
Rachel Reeves MP
*
Shadow Secretary of State for Education *
Tristram Hunt MP
*
Shadow Secretary of State for Defence*
Vernon Coaker MP

*Shadow Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government*
Hilary Benn MP

*Shadow Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change*
Caroline Flint MP

*Shadow Leader of the House of Commons and Chair of the National Policy Forum*
Angela Eagle MP
*
Shadow Secretary of State for Transport*
Mary Creagh MP

*Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland*
Ivan Lewis MP

*Shadow Secretary of State for International Development*
Jim Murphy MP
*
Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland*
Margaret Curran MP
*
Shadow Secretary of State for Wales *
Owen Smith MP
*
Shadow Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs*
Maria Eagle MP

*Shadow Minister for the Cabinet Office*
Michael Dugher MP 

*Shadow Minister without Portfolio and Deputy Party Chair*
Jon Trickett MP

*Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities*
Gloria De Piero MP

*Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury*
Chris Leslie MP

*Shadow Leader of the House of Lords*
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

*Lords Chief Whip *
Lord Bassam of Brighton

*Also attending Shadow Cabinet:*
*
Shadow Minister for Care and Older People*
Liz Kendall MP

*Shadow Minister for Housing*
Emma Reynolds

*Shadow Attorney General*
Emily Thornberry MP

*Shadow Minister without Portfolio (Cabinet Office)*
Lord Wood of Anfield

*Coordinator of the Labour Party Policy Review*
Jon Cruddas MP


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 7, 2013)

Rachel Reeves is shadow for Work and Pensions, MP for Leeds West apparently, can't say I've ever noticed her before.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 8, 2013)

Favelado said:


> Rumours that Liam fucking Byrne has been sacked. Oh please!



Re-shuffled. 
Nowhere near as ignominious as the prick deserves.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 8, 2013)

treelover said:


> Esther McVey, now Employment Minister, trouble ahead..



The only trouble worthy of that globule of rat phlegm, would be a slow, painful death.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 8, 2013)

treelover said:


> Sue Marsh seems to think Bryne going is a disaster as "at least he now understands the issues"
> 
> I think there is some truth in that, but he would stick to neo-liberal proscriptions



Byrne may understand the issues, but he has no appreciation of them, and no compassion.



> btw Rachel Reeves tipped for his job, another economist



So, same shit, different arseholes.



> btw2, wonder if Hoban will spill the beans on the incompetence of Duncan Smith.



Unlikely.  Hoban is fairly young and *may* still have a ministerial career in front of him.  He's not going to queer his pitch just to drop Dunked-in Shit in it.


----------



## treelover (Oct 8, 2013)

Diane Abbot sacked not moved "due to disloyalty"

yet JIm Murphy who led on Defence who was most likely briefing against Ed, only moved, then again it was to Int Development, blessed are the peacemakers, how ironic!


----------



## treelover (Oct 9, 2013)

> *Middle-class people are the benefit fraudsters it's OK to like*
> So 165,000 high-earning parents claiming child benefit have not yet signed up for self-assessment. Yet they don't get demonised
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/09/middle-class-people-child-benefit-fraudsters


 

I was going to post something on this, but Jack does it better


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 9, 2013)

Wrong thread.


----------



## treelover (Oct 9, 2013)




----------



## treelover (Oct 11, 2013)

New benefit bashing programme, Monday, Channel 5(owned by the pornographer Desmond) "On Benefits and proud of it"

who needs Pravda when the 'free press' will do it.

https://www.facebook.com/AbolishBedroomTaxOrPrepareForBritainsCivilWar2013

Sadly "Abolish Bedroom Tax" FB site also seems to be endorsing this crap, some of the comments are horrendous, and may be illegal, the war continues.

Interesting to see Dave Balfe(Teardrop Explodes/Food records) sticking up for claimants in the comments,  few celebs do, and he must have a few bob.

why not join him, post on the site...


----------



## treelover (Oct 11, 2013)

> "take her womb away..unless he gets a job"
> 
> "Should be sterilsed and there is no reason why at least one parent cant work. Apart from the fact i bet they have also registered as disabled becuase they are so fat. They are lazy and pointless and of no use to society. "
> 
> "WTF!!! they should help them to buy some fuckin condoms, spongin bastards, no one should be allowed to have tyhat many kids if they cant afford them, FAT FREAKS"


----------



## smokedout (Oct 11, 2013)

treelover said:


> I was going to post something on this, but Jack does it better



I did it first

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/the-mass-middle-class-child-benefit-fraud/

bit fucking close for comfort if you ask me


----------



## treelover (Oct 11, 2013)

> *Labour should embrace welfare reform*
> Tory jibes about 'the welfare party' chime with voters. But if Labour is clever and hard-headed it can reap the rewards of a shakeup that's popular and fair
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/11/labour-welfare-reform-shakeup#start-of-comments


 

Blairite Blogger, Hopi Sen,  no mention it was NL who created the scrounger' narrative.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 13, 2013)




----------



## 03gills (Oct 14, 2013)

Personally, I'm an advocate of an unconditional citizens income, but the principle of our current, so called ''contributory'' welfare system should be that If an individual has been paying X amount of tax for Y amount of years & suddenly loses their job, then he/she is fully entitled to sit on their bum, do nothing, & claim X amount of benefits for Y amount of years without having to worry about about the DWP hassling them, nor about judgmental little turds wagging their fingers at them.

Only once you've claimed back what you've paid in, can the state then start attaching conditionality to the receipt of the benefit. That *should* be the principle of a contributory system in theory, but thanks to said judgemental little turds, in practice that isn't the reality, & people are expected to ''work'' for a benefit that some have already bloody well worked many years for.


----------



## treelover (Oct 18, 2013)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...-atos-pmqs-video_n_4108677.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Things seem to be hotting up, watch this very moving attack by Denis Skinner on ATOS at PMQ, some Tories even bayed at him afterwards, Cameron was shreweder.

http://news.sky.com/story/1156124/fit-to-work-benefits-test-unfit-for-purpose

CAB just issues a report that 150'000 have complained about ATOS, Sky News had a package on it, not the BBC though


----------



## tony.c (Oct 18, 2013)

There was an item on BBC London News about over 2,000 people being summonsed to Southwark County Court for arrears of Council Tax this morning, due to the benefits cap and the local council demanding that people who were previously exempt (poor) now have to pay.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 21, 2013)

Monday, 21 October 2013 14:22

Following the recent rushed consultation on personal independence payment (PIP) mobility component, the DWP has today confirmed that it is not prepared to make any changes to the 20 metre limit for eligibility for enhanced rate mobility. The news will come as a bitter blow to the many thousands of disabled claimants likely to lose their higher rate mobility component payments or Motability vehicle as a result.

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ne...arsh-20-metre-limit-for-pip-enhanced-mobility


----------



## treelover (Oct 22, 2013)

> What would Reeves do? Axe the tax first, paid for by reversing a tax cut for hedge funds and tax perks such as Osborne's "shares for rights". What about Atos, whose harsh tests strip benefits from so many of the sick? From St George's, in Armley, we heard that the great majority queuing for food had been left penniless by benefit sanctions or delays. She says the case that the MP Dennis Skinner raised in PMQs last week is typical of many she sees: a constituent, dying of cancer, lost his benefits in an Atos case and died before it was reviewed.
> Labour brought in Atos, so what will she do? Atos must be replaced – and doctors' evidence must always be used. There will be tests, people can't be parked, but no targets will be set for numbers to be cut off benefits: she demands that the Department for Work and Pensions publish figures it hides on numbers losing benefits.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/22/rachel-reeves-thickest-skin-labour-best-hope


 

Awful news, Polly is stating though Rachel Reeves position on benefits is more nuanced than her 'bash claimants' media stance, but Polly has form on exonerating LP chiefs who then go on to crap on the most vulnerable.


----------



## treelover (Oct 22, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> Monday, 21 October 2013 14:22
> 
> Following the recent rushed consultation on personal independence payment (PIP) mobility component, the DWP has today confirmed that it is not prepared to make any changes to the 20 metre limit for eligibility for enhanced rate mobility. The news will come as a bitter blow to the many thousands of disabled claimants likely to lose their higher rate mobility component payments or Motability vehicle as a result.
> 
> http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ne...arsh-20-metre-limit-for-pip-enhanced-mobility


 



> She says the case that the MP Dennis Skinner raised in PMQs last week is typical of many she sees: a constituent, dying of cancer, lost his benefits in an Atos case and died before it was reviewed.
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/22/rachel-reeves-thickest-skin-labour-best-hope


 

The thing even Tories M.P's know the outcomes of these brutal changes, they have seriously disabled people and their families who come to their surgeries, do they just ignore them, don't care, or is it they know the effects, but keep quiet for political expediency?


----------



## treelover (Oct 24, 2013)

Benefits and Work are reporting from 28 October, where a claimant is investigated by the DWP even as a result of a false accusation of fraud, they will automatically lose their DLA and be forced to make a claim for PIP, even if found to be entirely innocent.


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 26, 2013)

03gills said:


> Personally, I'm an advocate of an unconditional citizens income, but the principle of our current, so called ''contributory'' welfare system should be that If an individual has been paying X amount of tax for Y amount of years & suddenly loses their job, then he/she is fully entitled to sit on their bum, do nothing, & claim X amount of benefits for Y amount of years without having to worry about about the DWP hassling them, nor about judgmental little turds wagging their fingers at them.
> 
> Only once you've claimed back what you've paid in, can the state then start attaching conditionality to the receipt of the benefit. That *should* be the principle of a contributory system in theory, but thanks to said judgemental little turds, in practice that isn't the reality, & people are expected to ''work'' for a benefit that some have already bloody well worked many years for.


The ex said that when he went to sign on age 22, having worked full time since he was 16 he was told his contributions based JSA would last a week... 

I think it would at least make sense to clarify the system so that people see what they are getting for their NI payments. 

I'm pretty sure that many European countries have systems where if you work most of the year you get several months on a portion of your real pay with no shit off the state rather than a basic amount and loads of hassle. AFAIK this is often more set up for seasonal workers during the off season but I can still see the benefits.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 26, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> The ex said that when he went to sign on age 22, having worked full time since he was 16 he was told his contributions based JSA would last a week...
> 
> I think it would at least make sense to clarify the system so that people see what they are getting for their NI payments.



Well, you've kind of stumbled onto one of the great hidden issues that politicians really don't want aired, which is that if you measure the current entitlement your contributions buy you, then measure them against previous entitlement, they've shrunk, but the amount of money taken from you has not.



> I'm pretty sure that many European countries have systems where if you work most of the year you get several months on a portion of your real pay with no shit off the state rather than a basic amount and loads of hassle. AFAIK this is often more set up for seasonal workers during the off season but I can still see the benefits.



It's the prevalent system in at least half of the EU, because it works, and because someone who's on 70% of their previous salary for a year has more money to look for work, among other things!


----------



## Greebo (Oct 26, 2013)

treelover said:


> Benefits and Work are reporting from 28 October, where a claimant is investigated by the DWP even as a result of a false accusation of fraud, they will automatically lose their DLA and be forced to make a claim for PIP, even if found to be entirely innocent.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 29, 2013)

A petition to do away with benefit sanctions
http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/benefit-sanctions-must-be-stopped-without-exceptions-in-uk


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 29, 2013)

Singed.



spelt like that on purpose


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 29, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24729477uk-england-24729477
Fuck you Jeremy Cunt........


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2013)




----------



## treelover (Oct 30, 2013)

Govt loses Supreme Court ruling, some good news for a change, well done Cait, we need more like her...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2013)

> *Impact of welfare reform*
> 
> Sheffield Hallam University has developed a dataset which maps estimates of per capita cumulative financial impact of welfare reforms based on official data and what seems to be a robust methodology of calculation .  but all the data is actually publicly available using the rather snazzy infographic tool hosted by the FT http://ig.ft.com/austerity-map/
> 
> Of course it can’t be 100% accurate, but it is probably ‘good enough’ for most purposes of analysis and policy work.  It opens up further questions – i.e. how are people _coping _or _not coping_ with these reductions, specifically those in minority or otherwise disadvantaged groups, and what   are the implications of this for local services.  The full report based on this dataset is also publicly available – http://www.shu.ac.uk/research/cresr/sites/shu.ac.uk/files/hitting-poorest-places-hardest_0.pdf.


----------



## treelover (Oct 30, 2013)

Good stuff,its a shame it was SHU's Professor Steve Fothergill who provided NL with the evidence that many tens of thousands from de-industrialised areas had been 'parked' on Incapacity Benefit and gave them justification for 'reform'


----------



## BigTom (Nov 1, 2013)

From a recent b3ta challenge, Soviet propaganda in the uk, with this story 



> As soon as I saw the new compo I just had to do this.
> My mrs has cancer. She has gone from a 9st attractive woman to a 6st old lady who is having treatment 3 days a week for Lymphoma. She has had three ATOS assessments, the last one last week and has been found 'Fit For Work' each time. She will now automatically be put on JSA and lose her DLA/ESA whatever they choose to call it and would have to attend the Jobcentre five days a week from 9am to 5pm and actively look for work.
> This means she would have to give up any hope of treatment to do this. She has now told them to stick their benefits and now gets nothing. Forgive me for the rant but we are actually going through this.
> I don't know exactly how long I will have her in my life, but one things for sure, I will never let her attempt to get any benefits from this evil, vile government again despite her never being off work in her entire working
> life as a nurse. And the so called rumour that they have coins glued to the floor to see if anyone trys to pick it up... Completely true. A 50p under the table.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 4, 2013)

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3912171.ece?CMP=SOC-appshare-iphonetto-tw-ios-1.6



> *Jobless may lose share of home in return for benefits*
> 
> Unemployed homeowners will have to give a stake of the equity in their home to the State in return for help in paying their mortgage, under a plan favoured by ministers.



Ah that's nice


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3912171.ece?CMP=SOC-appshare-iphonetto-tw-ios-1.6
> 
> 
> 
> Ah that's nice



A policy that, if ever instituted, would blow up in their faces.  Unemployment is still teetering on the brink of increasing. The middle classes, who are beginning to feel the full force of the austerity measures the poor have been subject to for years, won't blithely accept what amounts to part of the equity in their home being stolen from them, especially as (like all of us) they've already fulfilled their side of the social compact by paying Income Tax and NI contributions.  Punishing people for being unemployed may play well when you're not in the putative target group, but this - this expands the target group massively, and directly into trad Tory-voter territory.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

> A Department for Work and Pensions spokesman said: "We are very pleased that the court has ruled that the benefit cap complies with the European Convention on Human Rights.
> 
> "The benefit cap sets a fair limit to what people can expect to get from the welfare system - so that claimants cannot receive more than £500 a week, *the average household earnings.*"



wut?


----------



## BigTom (Nov 6, 2013)

Mean average wage is 26k. Much less outside London of course but let's not make too much of that or they'll introduce regional benefit caps.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Nov 6, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Mean average wage is 26k. Much less outside London of course but let's not make too much of that or they'll introduce regional benefit caps.


It really is time we came up with a more relevant average income stat than mean wage. Not only is it distorted by region, it's also a very poor indicator of living standards because it ignores dependents and living costs. So you get the absurdity of the benefit cap where the income of people like me (no dependents, living with family) is used as a comparator for single parents with 3 kids, paying full rent, with no consideration that our income needs are worlds apart.


----------



## treelover (Nov 6, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/06/disabled-people-win-living-fund-appeal

Very very good news, five disabled people win their appeal against the Govt abolishing the Independent Living Fund, which is only for very severely disabled people, providing stairlifts/lifts, etc. BBC journo reports this as very significant, though the Condems may appeal.


----------



## treelover (Nov 6, 2013)

On a more sombre note, today 1400 hard working ship workers with secure happy families rising very early as part of alarm clock Britain, tomorrow they are scroungers living off the state with too many kids who are bleeding the state dry.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 6, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Mean average wage is 26k. Much less outside London of course but let's not make too much of that or they'll introduce regional benefit caps.



Something that some members of the Cabinet have already been agitating for, since the cap legislation was green-papered.


----------



## treelover (Nov 6, 2013)

and much of the LP, especially Blue Labour


----------



## BigTom (Nov 6, 2013)

400,000 sanctioned Oct 2012 - June 2013 under new sanctions regime - minimum 4 weeks, maximum 3 years - 48,000 people got the three year sanction.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24833627

List of utterly ridiculous sanctions that is useful for challenging the idea that these are applied fairly (though personally I am now against sanctions entirely, used to be that I was ok with them when people turned down jobs they could reasonably do but seeing how they are misused I am now fully against them) :http://birminghamagainstthecuts.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/a-selection-of-especially-stupid-sanctions/


----------



## treelover (Nov 6, 2013)

"maximum 3 years - 48,000 people got the three year sanction."

fucking hell, that's obscene.



Surprised you endorsed them at all.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 6, 2013)

treelover said:


> "maximum 3 years - 48,000 people got the three year sanction."
> 
> fucking hell, that's obscene.
> 
> ...



Not the new longer sanctions, but I used to think that if someone was offered a reasonable job and turned it down it was right for benefits to be stopped for a month or less, don't anymore. I would never have thought sanctions for being late for appointments or being ill more than twice in a year and that kind of thing was right.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 6, 2013)

I've never been in favour of punitive benefit sanctions - AFAIC, out of work benefits are (or at least should be) a safety net between survival and destitution and as such JCP advisors shouldn't have the power to withold them on a whim. Even in the case of turning down a "reasonable" offer of work - Who's to say what's reasonable?

The only time anyone's money should get stopped is if they've been proven to have been claiming fraudulently.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 6, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I've never been in favour of punitive benefit sanctions - AFAIC, out of work benefits are (or at least should be) a safety net between survival and destitution and as such JCP advisors shouldn't have the power to withold them on a whim. Even in the case of turning down a "reasonable" offer of work - Who's to say what's reasonable?
> 
> The only time anyone's money should get stopped is if they've been proven to have been claiming fraudulently.



It's not even just turning down an offer of work (and there are plenty of unreasonable offers of work, like commission-only door to door sales jobs and zero-hour agency jobs) it can be something as stupid as failure to apply for a job you're not even qualified for.

I can't believe that the idea that leaving someone (and possibly that person's dependants) with an income of zero for a whole month is a fitting punishment for anything is so readily accepted by so many people.


----------



## Ultimate (Nov 6, 2013)

In today's BBC online article it says one man had his benefit stopped for not turning up for an appointment with an advisor, but that was because the Job Centre didn't know he'd moved away. Another man had his benefit stopped because he was doing a course. But that all depends on the hours - you're entitled to JSA if it's less than 16 hours per week. It seems that official was exploiting the claimant's ignorance of this. You have to know the system inside out.

The Job Centre staff's union, the PCS, have said, not for the first time, that they come under pressure to sanction a certain proportion of claimants' benefits. The DWP deny this. Can't the PCS produce any evidence?


----------



## BigTom (Nov 6, 2013)

This is the article, it's a different one to the one I posted: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24829866


----------



## BigTom (Nov 6, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's not even just turning down an offer of work (and there are plenty of unreasonable offers of work, like commission-only door to door sales jobs and zero-hour agency jobs) it can be something as stupid as failure to apply for a job you're not even qualified for.
> 
> I can't believe that the idea that leaving someone (and possibly that person's dependants) with an income of zero for a whole month is a fitting punishment for anything is so readily accepted by so many people.



Nah, I totally get it (I don't agree with it anymore though). If someone can support themselves financially through working, why shouldn't they do so? Someone who turns down a reasonable job (and I totally agree with Frances that defining reasonable is impossible, I never thought too hard about it before I don't think) is refusing to do so, choosing instead to skank me and you for money. Why should we support someone who refuses to help themselves? I don't like being taken for a mug and that's what they are doing. 
There's a load of problems with this from both a practical and moral perspective but I think it's perfectly understandable, even from a socialist viewpoint - from each according to their ability is just as important as to each according to their needs. No reason why one shouldn't depend on the other - by giving according to your abilities you get according to your needs. Choose not to give according to your abilities, why should you get according to your needs?

For me, it is why it's important that we fight against the idea that unemployment is a choice, and highlight how JCPs are using sanctions in ways that can not possibly be described as someone choosing not to work who could. There's much more bizarre examples of sanctions than what you say - someone gets a job starting in 2 weeks, gets sanctioned for not doing jobsearch in those two weeks... someone 9 minutes late for a JCP appointment because an interview ran late... someone who couldn't afford to travel for a workfare placement, offered to do it at a charity shop they could walk to, was refused this and got sanctioned for non-attendance.. people who have Work Programme (or other schemes) appointments at the same time as JCP appointments and get sanctioned for not attending one or the other. Nobody can defend these sanctions, even people who really agree with sanctions, and then you can chip away at them by arguing that it's not possible to have a system that stops these sanctions from happening. tbh I think the three year sanction is too much for a lot of people who support sanctions, ime when I've talked to people about this they've been shocked and appalled even when they'd support shorter sanctions.

Also, in the past, I had no real conception of how quickly you get to having less than nothing on benefits. I doubt I would have accepted a month if I'd known then what I know now, not even a week. I knew someone would sell stuff, go into debt with friends/family, short themselves on food or at worst not have money for the gas/electric meter but I didn't see just how fucked that actually got people, not least because I didn't realise how many poeple had nothing to sell and no friends/family who could lend them money. Lots of people are missing that view, and I wouldn't pretend I ever got very close to real poverty personally - at least in part because I was able to spend most of my time on WTC not JSA having realised that I'd rather take £20 less a week than suffer the JCP (and I know JCPs have only got worse since I signed on for a few months a few years back), and continue doing the odd bit of freelancing without any concern, never had an income of over £6k from march 2008 - april 2013 (when I started a new job) though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 7, 2013)

treelover said:


> and much of the LP, especially Blue Labour



When people talk about "blue Labour", I'm inclined to think "blue as against what? There is no 'red Labour', just some slightly pink Labourites".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 7, 2013)

BigTom said:


> 400,000 sanctioned Oct 2012 - June 2013 under new sanctions regime - minimum 4 weeks, maximum 3 years - 48,000 people got the three year sanction.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24833627
> 
> List of utterly ridiculous sanctions that is useful for challenging the idea that these are applied fairly (though personally I am now against sanctions entirely, used to be that I was ok with them when people turned down jobs they could reasonably do but seeing how they are misused I am now fully against them) :http://birminghamagainstthecuts.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/a-selection-of-especially-stupid-sanctions/



Murderous cunts.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 7, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> I can't believe that the idea that leaving someone (and possibly that person's dependants) with an income of zero for a whole month is a fitting punishment for anything is so readily accepted by so many people.



Standard politics of governance - create a scapegoat, and scared people will load their fears onto the scapegoat rather than onto the rulers.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 7, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/07/universal-credit-waste-mps



> Iain Duncan Smith's flagship benefit reform has been severely criticised by MPs for failures that are expected to waste at least £140m of public money....The universal credit scheme has been overseen by "alarmingly weak" management...described a pilot set up under Duncan Smith's guidance as inadequate and open to fraud....said the implementation of the system so far had been "extraordinarily poor"...Hodge also claimed that the pilot programme is not a proper pilot. "It does not deal with the key issues that universal credit must address: the volume of claims; their complexity; change in claimants' circumstances; and the need for claimants to meet conditions for continuing entitlement to benefit," she said.



Dunked in Shit...who'd have thunk it?


----------



## treelover (Nov 7, 2013)

> and the need for claimants to meet conditions for continuing entitlement to benefit," she said.


 

Sounds like Hodge supports it all though


----------



## brogdale (Nov 7, 2013)

Classic Drunken Shit....



> 10.01am GMT
> 
> The splash in today's Times says that* Iain Duncan Smith* intervened to try to ensure that today's damning report from the public accounts committee into universal credit blamed Robert Devereux, the permanent secretary at the Department for Work and Pensions. Here's an extract from Jill Sherman's story (paywall).
> 
> ...



It's almost like the _cunt olympics_ are just around the corner, and the intensity of his training programme is reaching new 'heights'.


----------



## treelover (Nov 7, 2013)

Deveraux is not blame free, much social policy is driven by the civil service, though these days it is more driven by politicians.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 7, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Classic Drunken Shit....
> 
> 
> 
> It's almost like* the *_*cunt olympics*_* are just around the corner*, and the intensity of his training programme is reaching new 'heights'.



GE year approaches


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 7, 2013)

treelover said:


> Deveraux is not blame free, much social policy is driven by the civil service, though these days it is more driven by politicians.



*Implementation* is driven by the Civil Service, and they have an *influence* on policy formulation, but they have no constitutional brief to *direct* social policy - THAT is down to the legislature.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2013)

> *Government admits Jobcentres set targets to take away benefits*
> Department of Work and Pensions backtracks on denial of Guardian investigation that some jobcentres have been taking people off benefits amid pressure to meet targets



http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/apr/08/jobcentres-benefits-sanctions-targets


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2013)

> * Iain Duncan Smith abandons plans to slash financial support for disabled people *
> 8 Nov 2013 20:08
> The Work and Pensions Secretary will not be challenging a court ruling which halted his proposal to scrap the Independent Living Fund



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/work-pensions-secretary-iain-duncan-2711183#ixzz2kAufjNQe


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2013)

*Independent Living Fund victory: McVey silent over possible resignation*

*The former minister for disabled people has refused to say whether she will resign from her new post in the same department, after her decision to close the Independent Living Fund was overturned in the court of appeal.*

http://disabilitynewsservice.com/20...ctory-mcvey-silent-over-possible-resignation/


----------



## treelover (Nov 9, 2013)

A friend of mine who unselfishly helps lots of people in different ways, has been helping a guy who has just lost all of his DLA which was high rate, he is in crisis: he is 'obese' cannot walk and pays for his own care, or he did, he can't now, this is truly criminal, can he appeal?, I think they were moving people to PIP even if they win their appeal.


----------



## treelover (Nov 9, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *Independent Living Fund victory: McVey silent over possible resignation*
> 
> *The former minister for disabled people has refused to say whether she will resign from her new post in the same department, after her decision to close the Independent Living Fund was overturned in the court of appeal.*
> 
> http://disabilitynewsservice.com/20...ctory-mcvey-silent-over-possible-resignation/


 

Resign , a politician, having a laugh, they never do now..

Its good news, does this mean it will remain till at least the GE?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 10, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *Independent Living Fund victory: McVey silent over possible resignation*
> 
> *The former minister for disabled people has refused to say whether she will resign from her new post in the same department, after her decision to close the Independent Living Fund was overturned in the court of appeal.*
> 
> http://disabilitynewsservice.com/20...ctory-mcvey-silent-over-possible-resignation/



Of course McVey won't resign. She has no honour.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 10, 2013)

treelover said:


> A friend of mine who unselfishly helps lots of people in different ways, has been helping a guy who has just lost all of his DLA which was high rate, he is in crisis: he is 'obese' cannot walk and pays for his own care, or he did, he can't now, this is truly criminal, can he appeal?, I think they were moving people to PIP even if they win their appeal.



Yes, he *can* appeal, and yes, he *will* eventually be moved to PIP even if he wins his appeal.
His grounds should be based around him/an advisor assessing the decision of the adjudicating officer.  Often they fail to properly read guidance on conditions or to take into account how multiple conditions may interact, even if you've set out the issues fully in your application/renewal form.  Tell him he should request a copy of his paperwork post-haste!


----------



## treelover (Nov 10, 2013)

Can he ask for a 'reconsideration' first, or is it straight to appeal?


----------



## Greebo (Nov 10, 2013)

treelover said:


> Can he ask for a 'reconsideration' first, or is it straight to appeal?


AFAIK yes, you can request reconsideration giving your reasons why you want this (eg "I can't believe that you've  read what I said:  This bit clearly states that I can't do X at all, can only do Y with assistance, and last time I attempted Z I had to rest in bed for a week afterwards"), but you still need to know why the bloke was turned down. 

In any case, the deadline for saying that you want to appeal is so short (one month from the decision) that it's a very good idea to start preparing for an appeal, even while still hoping that the reconsideration will be in the claimant's favour.


----------



## treelover (Nov 11, 2013)

tx, does anyone have Sue Marsh's email?, she is forwarding evidence around benefit issues to the UN rapporteur.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 11, 2013)

This is nice.

Housing trusts mis-representing the law, and implicitly threatening those in arrears with having their children taken off them.

Good effort from Paul @ TCF in response.

'kinnel.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 11, 2013)

matthew oakley, ex of right wing Policy Exchange, undertaking "independent" review of JSA and sanctions 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/jobseekers-allowance-sanctions-independent-review


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 11, 2013)

Two friends on FB sanctioned today.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 11, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> Two friends on FB sanctioned today.


tell them to reply, make it polite and they've got to at least acknowledge it. with something like half a million people a year getting done, i think we should start a campaign to get everyone to reply and see how they deal with that.


----------



## treelover (Nov 12, 2013)

Just read on F/B that in the early 2000's Smith made several "paid for" visits to the Right Wing Libertarian American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation. 

The Heritage Foundation's 2011 "Study On Poverty" was criticized "for being "distorted, " "misleading," "wrong," and embracing "anti-poor stereotypes"
in order to justify the further retrenchment of the social safety net."

Clear where he got his ideas for The Centre For Social Justice and his policies.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 12, 2013)

why should people believe that just on your word?


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 12, 2013)

Just finished a blog piece on IDS and the fact that he won't even be attending today's Parliamentary debate on the bedroom tax:

http://robertwalshwriter.wordpress.com/2013/11/12/a-white-feather-for-ids/


----------



## BigTom (Nov 12, 2013)

Paul T said:


> matthew oakley, ex of right wing Policy Exchange, undertaking "independent" review of JSA and sanctions
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/jobseekers-allowance-sanctions-independent-review



We always knew it would be a whitewash, not even an attempt to hide the bias. Matthew Oakley is proper scum. Conclusion of the report will be that sanctions are useful and although there are isolated incidents of sanctions being wrongfully applied they are mostly used correctly and the review/appeal process is good enough. Knew that before we heard Oakley was going to write the report though.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 12, 2013)

BigTom said:


> We always knew it would be a whitewash, not even an attempt to hide the bias. Matthew Oakley is proper scum. Conclusion of the report will be that sanctions are useful and although there are isolated incidents of sanctions being wrongfully applied they are mostly used correctly and the review/appeal process is good enough. Knew that before we heard Oakley was going to write the report though.


What I think is proper scary is the last set of stats. For JSA alone, between November 2012 (the first full month of the new sanctions) and June 2013 there were 553,000 sanctions. This compares to 499,000 between November 2011 – June 2012. Now they've broadened the scope for ESA claimants in WRAG, these numbers are likely to increase again. Citizens Advice estimate that its something like 1 in 4 JSA claimants getting sanctioned annually. Good BBC article


----------



## BigTom (Nov 12, 2013)

Yeah, it makes for seriously grim reading. I'm wondering if the point will arrive where they've pushed it too far. Was on the local radio last week after the sanctions numbers were announced and had some tory scum MP on after me giving it the "only used as a last resort" crap.. in between and after had callers with their stories of totally obviously crap sanctions, like someone who was sanctioned cos they were on a training course. How long can it last before enough people know / know of someone who has been sanctioned in circumstances no-one could defend.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2013)

Soon people's only recourse will be their local church, assuming they really can feed the five thousand.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 14, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Soon people's only recourse will be their local church, assuming they really can feed the five thousand.



Already happening here (Lambeth).  I can only hope that the churches don't attempt to use this to garner new recruits.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Already happening here (Lambeth).  I can only hope that the churches don't attempt to use this to garner new recruits.


 
I bet they are: soup and a sermon. I've no doubt that's what the odious Salvation Army do. Soon they'll launch their Christmas campaign. All very laudable (my mum thinks so). But they won't tell you, in their ad copy, about how their Employment Plus work programme contract puts people into poverty.

A lot of foodbanks are based in churches as well.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 18, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Yeah, it makes for seriously grim reading.* I'm wondering if the point will arrive where they've pushed it too far.* Was on the local radio last week after the sanctions numbers were announced and had some tory scum MP on after me giving it the "only used as a last resort" crap.. in between and after had callers with their stories of totally obviously crap sanctions, like someone who was sanctioned cos they were on a training course. How long can it last before enough people know / know of someone who has been sanctioned in circumstances no-one could defend.



It won't go to where it's been pushed to far - The possibility of being sanctioned will (and increasingly is) just be accepted as part of the part and parcel of it.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 19, 2013)

People simply won't and don't believe sanctions are handed out trivially. Anyone in a position to be sanctioned, for whatever reason, is a scrounger and deserving of no sympathy. 

Someone needs to do some undercover filming in the JC+ to catch some of these things out; get footage of sanction targets etc.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 19, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> People simply won't and don't believe sanctions are handed out trivially. Anyone in a position to be sanctioned, for whatever reason, is a scrounger and deserving of no sympathy.<snip>


Are you new to this or something?  There've been reports in the tabloids all year (short and well hidden) of people being sanctioned for trivial reasons, or being given a 3 month+ sanction for a first (often merely technical at that) breaking of the jobseeker's agreement.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 19, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> People simply won't and don't believe sanctions are handed out trivially. Anyone in a position to be sanctioned, for whatever reason, is a scrounger and deserving of no sympathy.
> 
> Someone needs to do some undercover filming in the JC+ to catch some of these things out; get footage of sanction targets etc.




The DWP have had to admit they set targets too! Where have you been?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 19, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Are you new to this or something?  There've been reports in the tabloids all year (short and well hidden) of people being sanctioned for trivial reasons, or being given a 3 month+ sanction for a first (often merely technical at that) breaking of the jobseeker's agreement.


New?

No, I'm not new. 

I'm well aware that the DWP are killing people. My eyes are wide open. 

The problem is that many people's eyes are not open and so they woiuld need to see for themselves just what's going on. Plenty of people, those that aren't on sites like this, are just completely oblivious to anything other than the day in day out drip feed of propaganda. That nice Mr IDS has assured them that the DWP's admission of targets (just like ATOS) was some sort of clerical error and is nothing to worry about. After all Labour spent all the money and 'it is right' that 'we' reform the 'out of control' welfare spending that 'spiralled' under the last government.

The atmospher now is so toxic in this country, thanks to the poison pens of fleet street, that mere truth and the admission of guilt isn't enough. 

More importantly, how do we change this? Is Rachel 'tougher than the tories' Reeves going to make a difference that will stop this carnage?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 19, 2013)

...a small smile, because despite them all, we still can 



> *Esther Louise McVey* (born 24 October 1967) is a British Conservative Party politician who has been the Member of Parliament (MP) for Wirral West since 2010, and the Assistant Grim Reaper for Disabled People]] since 2012, second only to Iain Duncan Smith. She was previously a television presenter and businesswoman before deciding to branch out into professional lying and helping disabled people into the grave.



https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Esther_McVey&oldid=582244538


----------



## treelover (Nov 20, 2013)

> I have just recieved a letter from the DWP telling me that I`m being sanctioned until 5/11/14, The reason, for not logging onto an employment website that I was told to quickly enough. This is my 6th sanction in 3 years. I was expecting a punishment, but 3 months sanction! talk about using a sledgehammer to crack a nut! I feel that the DWP is waging a vendetta against me, & i don`t know how to fight back.




posted on facebook, three months sanction for not going online quick enough.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 20, 2013)

treelover said:


> posted on facebook, three months sanction for not going online quick enough.



Why is the date written in the American way? 5/11/14 would take the sanction to November


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 20, 2013)

treelover said:


> posted on facebook, three months sanction for not going online quick enough.


Who's his/her MP? That's patently ridiculous. If that was the actual reason given, which surely it wasn't, then someone at the DWP is behaving with deliberate negligence and should be fucking sacked. This cannot go on.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 20, 2013)

6 month sanction then, november -> may, or a typo and was meant to be 5/1/14, but that'd be two months from 5th November.
In any case, they should definitely be asking for a review (might be called reconsideration?) then appealing. Fucking grim. I've heard no end of stories like that one, where sanctions are being used just because they might be able to within the rules, as vindictive punishment.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 20, 2013)

BigTom said:


> 6 month sanction then, november -> may, or a typo and was meant to be 5/1/14, but that'd be two months from 5th November.
> In any case, they should definitely be asking for a review (might be called reconsideration?) then appealing. Fucking grim. I've heard no end of stories like that one, where sanctions are being used just because they might be able to within the rules, as vindictive punishment.


The trouble is that if the sanction is only a few months at most, it might not be worth appealing, because while you're waiting to appeal the sanction your dole isn't paid (even if you turn out to have been in the right).

This is nothing new, it's been this way for about 20 years, maybe more.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 21, 2013)

Greebo said:


> The trouble is that if the sanction is only a few months at most, it might not be worth appealing, because while you're waiting to appeal the sanction your dole isn't paid (even if you turn out to have been in the right).
> 
> This is nothing new, it's been this way for about 20 years, maybe more.



Still worth doing, I know how fucked up people get waiting for the appeal to happen and I'm not for any second suggesting that I think the review/appeal system is adequate at all, but you do get the money back eventually and more importantly it creates more work and cost for the DWP to manage the appeals, and more evidence for us as to how many sanctions are wrongly applied even according to the DWP rules (one of the most effective arguments I've found against ATOS is the extremely high rate of appeals and successes, I think it'd be useful for JSA sanctions too).


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 21, 2013)

Greebo said:


> The trouble is that if the sanction is only a few months at most, it might not be worth appealing, because while you're waiting to appeal the sanction your dole isn't paid (even if you turn out to have been in the right).
> 
> This is nothing new, it's been this way for about 20 years, maybe more.


Actually it was Labour that created this. Before then you would get your dole paid while waiting for the decision maker to resolve the 'doubt' - innocent until proven otherwise.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 21, 2013)

BigTom said:


> 6 month sanction then, november -> may, or a typo and was meant to be 5/1/14, but that'd be two months from 5th November.
> In any case, they should definitely be asking for a review (might be called reconsideration?) then appealing. Fucking grim. I've heard no end of stories like that one, where sanctions are being used just because they might be able to within the rules, as vindictive punishment.


Can they claim hardship allowance or has that gone? Last I heard it was devolved to the (discretion of the) local council.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 21, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Actually it was Labour that created this. Before then you would get your dole paid while waiting for the decision maker to resolve the 'doubt' - innocent until proven otherwise.


Sweetie, I didn't say which party brought it in and I don't fucking care.  It was wrong, and it is wrong, it should be fucking done away with.



BigTom said:


> Still worth doing, I know how fucked up people get waiting for the appeal to happen and I'm not for any second suggesting that I think the review/appeal system is adequate at all, but you do get the money back eventually and more importantly it creates more work and cost for the DWP to manage the appeals, and more evidence for us as to how many sanctions are wrongly applied even according to the DWP rules (one of the most effective arguments I've found against ATOS is the extremely high rate of appeals and successes, I think it'd be useful for JSA sanctions too).


You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.  I'm speaking from the position of somebody whose claim was stopped by a particulary grumpy and sneery claimant adviser who decided to chase up a job application which she'd browbeaten me into sending (on top of always more than fulfilling my agreed targets for looking for work).  

I wasn't notified until after my next signing day, and ended up pleading with a more senior claimant adviser to reverse the decision. He did so, but I was still left one week short, and told not to appeal it as the sanction which the claimant adviser had imposed would be far shorter than the 3 months it would take to officially appeal the decision (and during which time I'd get no money at all, not even HB).

With nobody at all to borrow from, nothing to sell, and no other income, I had no option but to suck it up.  Did I say "suck it up"?  Not quite.  I made a formal complaint (verbal and written) against the claimant adviser who'd browbeaten me, and didn't see her again.

This was back in the early 90's, AFAIK jobcentre staff are nowhere near as reasonable now.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 21, 2013)

A paper about the relationship between financial capability and the psychological well-being in mothers of young children in poor areas in England. Also this article outlines the gender gap of FI globally.


http://www.economist.com/blogs/free...nance?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/discriminationabounds


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 21, 2013)

of course it's wrong.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 21, 2013)

It was mentioned on Woman's Hour today that among unemployed under 25s, there are more female than male NEETS.  It turns out that this is because more young women than young men are likely to be single parents or have responsibility for at least one child under the age of 5.

So nice to hear that people trying to do the right thing are being labelled as doing nothing with their lives.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 21, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Sweetie, I didn't say which party brought it in and I don't fucking care.  It was wrong, and it is wrong, it should be fucking done away with.
> 
> 
> You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.  I'm speaking from the position of somebody whose claim was stopped by a particulary grumpy and sneery claimant adviser who decided to chase up a job application which she'd browbeaten me into sending (on top of always more than fulfilling my agreed targets for looking for work).
> ...



liked in agreement (and for complaining), not for the story.. 
afaik if you get a sanction for say 1 month, and appeal it, you will start getting benefit paid again after 1 month, no matter how long your appeal takes, and HB should continue to get paid regardless (but is often stopped when sanctioned, claimants need to put in a Nil Income claim, but advisors don't tell anyone that, just say "your benefits will be stopped" and seem very happy to let people believe that all their benefits will be stopped when it should only be JSA


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 21, 2013)

Leave your ethics at the door PCS, says Mr DWP.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 23, 2013)

Yet more cunt-tastic cuntery from that veritable King of Cunts, IDS (which stands for 'Incredibly Dodgy Statistics').

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...uts?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

It would be an entirely fitting punishment for IDS if he were strapped face-upwards at the bottom of a jacuzzi while every claimant currently suffering lines up to piss into that jacuzzi until he slowly drowns.

I commend this innovation in bespoke homicide to the House.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 23, 2013)

No more WRAG then..

Edited to add..

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHH..!!!!! THE ABSOLUTE BASTARD..!!!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 24, 2013)

> * Scandal of the hundreds so hungry they end up in hospital *
> 14 Nov 2013 14:52
> Nearly 400 men, women, and children across Greater Manchester required hospital care last year care due to a lack of food or poor diet.



http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...al-hundreds-greater-manchester-hungry-6305966


----------



## treelover (Nov 25, 2013)




----------



## treelover (Nov 25, 2013)

> *Review Carried Out After Study Reveals GP Evidence Was Factor In Only 2.9% Of Benefit Appeals*
> November 25, 2013
> 
> The Government has carried out an assessment of the key factors in deciding appeals against decisions to remove disability benefits from claimants, after a pilot study revealed GP evidence was the deciding factor in only 2.9% of cases, Pulse has learnt.The Department of Work and Pensions asked judges to provide a written summary explaining their decisions in individuals’ appeals against the removal of the Employment Support Allowance, including the importance of the GP report. It followed a study last November that showed judges cited GPs’ supporting evidence as the principal factor in only 2.9% of successful appeals when provided with a list of potential reasons from a drop-down menu.
> ...



and they call the process fair!


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 25, 2013)




----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 26, 2013)

This has to be read to be believed.

"*we would take the details of what you have been doing over the past fortnight and totally change your answers, thus guaranteeing a sanction*."


----------



## Greebo (Nov 26, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> This has to be read to be believed.<snip>


Read and passed on - I knew it was bad, but not this bad.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 26, 2013)

Likewise.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 28, 2013)

The Startling Stupidity of Esther McVey.



> Ms McVey said: “What’s a teacher do in a school? A teacher would tell you off or give you lines or whatever it is, detentions, but at the same time they are wanting your best interests at heart.
> 
> “They are teaching you, they are educating you but at the same time they will also have the ability to sanction you.”



How the hell did this creature ever get any power?


----------



## Greebo (Nov 28, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> The Startling Stupidity of Esther McVey.
> 
> 
> 
> How the hell did this creature ever get any power?


Entropy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 28, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> The Startling Stupidity of Esther McVey.


Esther McVey in "dumb cunt" non-shocker!

She doesn't appear to grasp that teachers are responsible, _in loco parentis_, for their charges, whereas jobcentre advisors have no legal responsibility to their charges at all.  A teacher who wrongly disciplines a child can be sanctioned. An advisor wrongly sanctioning a jobseeker in order to "make quota" cannot be sanctioned.




> How the hell did this creature ever get any power?



A pact with Satan?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 28, 2013)

Of course she doesn't believe people are wrongly or maliciously sanctioned. That's part of the problem. These people need to be wired to machines, clockwork orange style,w here they see what's really happening in Jobcentres. If that doesn't stimulate evne the impression of a conscience then feed them to the dogs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Of course she doesn't believe people are wrongly or maliciously sanctioned. That's part of the problem. These people need to be wired to machines, clockwork orange style,w here they see what's really happening in Jobcentres. If that doesn't stimulate evne the impression of a conscience then feed them to the dogs.



I'd say she's fully aware that people are maliciously and/or wrongly sanctioned, but that her politics (basic incestuous "my wonderful dad pulled his socks up/got on his bike, so can you") mean that she's too self-righteous to give a fuck about it.  After all, if daddy dear took any job he could get, so should the scroungers down the dole!


----------



## campanula (Dec 1, 2013)

and the insulting fucks are ever-ready with their protestations regarding their 'hard work' - nepotistic, crony ridden, stupid, smug, self-satisfied, lying parasitical cunts


----------



## Lo Siento. (Dec 2, 2013)

If you are in London and free there's a noise demo to against some if the most odious workfare pricks imaginable. They're having a big conference at senate house. Demo at 1230


----------



## Lo Siento. (Dec 2, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> If you are in London and free tomorrow lunchtime there's a noise demo against some if the most odious workfare pricks imaginable. They're having a big conference at senate house. Demo at 1230


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 2, 2013)

If the Salvation Army are there, let them know I fucking hate them.


----------



## Imagine (Dec 3, 2013)

Looks like Rachel Reeves intends to copy the Australian National Disability Insurance Scheme/DisabilityCare system:

"Labour believes all disabled people who are able to work should work, and should have the chance of decent employment."

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/12/labour-will-always-defend-rights-disabled

http://liambyrne.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/1Making-Rights-a-Reality-Consultation.pdf


Australia’s new disability scheme: A vehicle for austerity:

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/07/13/disa-j13.html


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

Imagine said:


> Looks like Rachel Reeves intends to copy the Australian National Disability Insurance Scheme/DisabilityCare system:
> 
> "Labour believes all disabled people who are able to work should work, and should have the chance of decent employment."
> 
> ...




I become less and less astounded by the day that none of our so-called policy think-tanks are unable to formulate policy themselves, so proffer policy formulated elsewhere, then generally trim some of the edges off in an attempt to make it a better "fit" to UK circumstances.

Wankers, all of 'em.


----------



## treelover (Dec 4, 2013)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/war-welfare-petition-100000-sign-2870513


Some positive news WOW petition reaches 100'00, not sure why it has taken so long(maybe the name) but its a serious petition and will have to be taken seriously


----------



## ddraig (Dec 4, 2013)

that happened a few days ago


----------



## treelover (Dec 4, 2013)

Yes, I note Celebrities including Stephen Fry, Russell Brand, Yoko Ono and Bianco Jagger have endorsed the campaign, and am a bit surprised..

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/wowpetitions-success-incredible-result-britains-2880511

anyway, new article here, well done all and daily mirror


----------



## J Ed (Dec 6, 2013)

http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/n...nefits_cut_because_he_sold_poppies/?ref=var_0

60 year old ex soldier thrown off of JSA for selling poppies. Notice how nonchalantly the paper reports the fact that he, a 60 year old, has been forced to do workfare in Asda. He obviously applied for a job there afterwards thinking that the scheme was designed to find him a job, poor bloke.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 6, 2013)

J Ed said:


> <snip>60 year old ex soldier thrown off of JSA for selling poppies. Notice how nonchalantly the paper reports the fact that he, a 60 year old, has been forced to do workfare in Asda. He obviously applied there thinking that the scheme was designed to find him a job, poor bloke.


FFS!  If he'd been as IMHO crooked as the person who sanctioned him, he'd have spun the time which he spent selling poppies as "confidence building and enhancing my communication skills, thus making myself more employable."


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 6, 2013)

Not to defend the DWP, because noone should be sanctioned, period. But:


> Mr Taylor was told he had not fulfilled a number of tasks, such as handing out CVs and applying for jobs, which were agreed require-ments in order to receive his benefit.



Has nothing to do with volunteering to sell poppies, since doing so is obviously not going to be a hindrance. This story is presented poorly IMO, and does a disservice to the genuine problem of the sanction regime.

However this business of handing out CV's is ridiculous; it is far too easy for Work Programme/DWP scum to 
resort to lazy models of helping people that are completely out of touch in the modern world. How many employers are going to want to be inundated with CV's, especially when most of them have recruitment webpages and at best any response will tell you to apply online.

Some of these DWP types think that life is like Neighbours where all you have to do is send your CV to Harold at the coffee shop to show you've got a bit of 'get up and go'. Ridiculous.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 6, 2013)

Also, would there be as much sympathy if his time volunteering had been to sell the Socialist newspaper at the weekend or something? I can't imagine people being quite so charitable, looking at the comments section of that article, had he not been a soldier. 

And shouldn't the British Legion be helping him? Isn't he exactly the sort they should be working with?


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 8, 2013)

proportion are important http://gyazo.com/b1d03d7a1dbc16d0de482a157dd13431


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 8, 2013)

did I say important? Nooo sorry mate, it is very important http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tel-NINE-WEEKS--costing-taxpayer-300-000.html


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 8, 2013)

very very important  http://gyazo.com/102439a58d69a3aec549119930713c6a


----------



## ddraig (Dec 8, 2013)

what point are you attempting to make here?

for starters, don't you think that maybe councils should have proper provision and not have to put up people in hostels and hotels?


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 8, 2013)

oh joy


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 8, 2013)

Not just a hotel of course; a LUXURY hotel. 

Luxury = that thing the readers can't have because they are all slogging their nuts off every day.

Natch!


----------



## yield (Dec 8, 2013)

Millions of families living in poverty despite being in employment says new study
Independent Sunday 08 December 2013


> There are more working families living in poverty in the UK than non-working families for the first time since the birth of the welfare state, according to a new study.
> 
> A report by a development charity attributes the figures to a sustained and “unprecedented” fall in living standards that has hit UK households, in which average incomes have fallen by 8% since a peak in 2008.





> As a result, around 2 million people have an income that would have been considered below the poverty line in 2008.
> 
> The Joseph Rowntree Foundation (JRF) found that according to the current definition, the figure is increasing as 500,000 more working families live below the poverty line than last year.
> 
> 6.7 million families with adults in employment meet the worrying criteria compared with a combined 6.3 million of retired and unemployed families.





> There is also a smaller but growing number of people living on incomes below the value of out-of-work benefits in very deep poverty.
> 
> The JRF said 400,000 families have suffered from a combination of benefit cuts from the bedroom tax, and council tax benefit. Two thirds of these families were already classified as living in poverty.


Beggars belief. Massive increase of hospital admissions for malnutrition while George Osbourne spends £10 million doing up his Whitehall hq.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> proportion are important http://gyazo.com/b1d03d7a1dbc16d0de482a157dd13431



Interesting link.  It's so badly done it doesn't even discriminate between nation-states with whom we have a reciprocal arrangement, and those with whom we don't.

I wonder why that is?  

Also, no sources are given for the data, something even a hack would demand, before taking those figures seriously, even if they get past the whole "registering for an NI number to claim benefits" _schtick_.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> did I say important? Nooo sorry mate, it is very important http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tel-NINE-WEEKS--costing-taxpayer-300-000.html



It's very important that the Home Office are such a bunch of dicks that they sold off the accommodation they used to own to house refugees who were waiting for their status to be decided, and now they have to pay rent instead?
That's not important, that's just the usual level of short-termist "let's make some money selling off the family jewels" thinking we've had from governments for the last 30 years.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> very very important  http://gyazo.com/102439a58d69a3aec549119930713c6a



Better, but still poor data use, given that you're not making any point except possibly "oh look, we're giving money to foreigners".


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 9, 2013)

So 4:30pm we get a double header creature feature as both the right dishonourable IDS and his partner in crime Lord Fraud are scheduled for the selecet committee.

I wonder if IDS' pathfinding to the appointment will be as effective as it is for UC. I bet ten billion pounds he doesn't appear and sends along McVey or Penning or Devereux as a proxy.

Someone on the gaurdian comments posted this link to watch it live.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 9, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> <snip>I wonder if IDS' pathfinding to the appointment will be as effective as it is for UC. I bet ten billion pounds he doesn't appear and sends along McVey or Penning or Devereux as a proxy.<snip>


I agree about the likelihood of that happening, but I never bet on certainties.


----------



## Jackobi (Dec 9, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> So 4:30pm we get a double header creature feature as both the right dishonourable IDS and his partner in crime Lord Fraud are scheduled for the selecet committee.
> 
> Someone on the gaurdian comments posted this link to watch it live.



Here is a more direct link to the meeting:

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=14420


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 9, 2013)

This is bollocks. It's going to achieve fuck all.


----------



## treelover (Dec 9, 2013)

King of obsfuscation, he thinks he is too big to fail, the arrogance (and the delusion) is epic.

no one really going for the jugular.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 9, 2013)

I started watching and, for some crazy reason, I got the notion that somehow he might be humbled. Of course not. He's a cunt, that's all there is.


----------



## Jackobi (Dec 9, 2013)

I'm trying very hard not to punch my monitor.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 9, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> I'm trying very hard not to punch my monitor.



Self-inflicted wound.  3 month sanction, most likely.


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 9, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Better, but still poor data use, given that you're not making any point except possibly "oh look, we're giving money to foreigners".


Wrong: I am making the point: Bulgarians and Romanians according to this data are OK.


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 9, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's very important that the Home Office are such a bunch of dicks that they sold off the accommodation they used to own to house refugees who were waiting for their status to be decided, and now they have to pay rent instead?
> That's not important, that's just the usual level of short-termist "let's make some money selling off the family jewels" thinking we've had from governments for the last 30 years.


Wrong: the key word is? Serco , the private contractor, behind this wording is probably not very clever manager (as usually) who get his job by accident (as usually). There is many idiots up and down the country on such positions. Reading, writing , counting - primer school skills are big problem form many "managers".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 9, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Wrong: I am making the point: Bulgarians and Romanians according to this data are OK.



You might have made the point in yer 'ead, but you didn't make it in what you wrote.

As I said earlier, your tables don't even show which of those countries we have reciprocal agreements with (you're aware what a reciprocal agreement is, I take it?).  Without doing so, the first table is meaningless.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 9, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Wrong: the key word is? Serco , the private contractor, behind this wording is probably not very clever manager (as usually) who get his job by accident (as usually). There is many idiots up and down the country on such positions. Reading, writing , counting - primer school skills are big problem form many "managers".



And a problem for you too, by the looks of it, because I'm fucked if I can work out what you're trying to say beyond "Serco has shit managers".


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 9, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Interesting link.  It's so badly done it doesn't even discriminate between nation-states with whom we have a reciprocal arrangement, and those with whom we don't.
> 
> I wonder why that is?
> 
> Also, no sources are given for the data, something even a hack would demand, before taking those figures seriously, even if they get past the whole "registering for an NI number to claim benefits" _schtick_.


Source? DWP - just look there is clearly given.


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 10, 2013)

http://weownit.org.uk/privatisation


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 10, 2013)

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/joe-guinan-thomas-m-hanna/privatisation-very-british-disease


----------



## ddraig (Dec 10, 2013)

Welsh report slams lies about the poor
http://www.wcva.org.uk/about-us/news/2013/12/report-slams-‘lies’-about-the-poor?seq.lang=en-GB


> Oxfam Cymru and the Church in Wales have published _Truth and lies about poverty_, which addresses six 'common myths' about those living in poverty. For instance, the report suggests that while 80 per cent of the UK believe that 'large numbers falsely claim benefits', fraudulent claims are in fact at historically low levels.
> 
> Another myth addressed is that benefit claimants 'have an easy life', yet the report has found that benefits 'do not meet minimum income standards' and have 'halved in value relative to average incomes over the last 30 years'.


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 10, 2013)

http://ourfuture.org/20131208/inequality-a-sure-way-to-kill-a-good-time


----------



## Greebo (Dec 11, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> http://ourfuture.org/20131208/inequality-a-sure-way-to-kill-a-good-time


Obvious stuff is obvious.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 11, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Obvious stuff is obvious.


 
Maybe round these parts.  I think (well, I know) a lot of people's fantasy idea of 'fun' places involves places like Monaco or Dubai.


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 11, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Obvious stuff is obvious.


not for everyone


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 11, 2013)

http://blog.policy.manchester.ac.uk...tability-the-rise-of-the-new-corporate-state/


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 11, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> not for everyone



For most people on a forum about "UK politics, current affairs and news"like this one, it *is* fairly obvious.


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 14, 2013)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...4b47d8-5318-11e3-9fe0-fd2ca728e67c_story.html


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...4b47d8-5318-11e3-9fe0-fd2ca728e67c_story.html



Wow, an article about rich Yanks and American attitudes to wealth.
In a forum for United Kingdom politics and current affairs, on a thread about campaigning against welfare cuts and poverty, when there's a seperate forum for international issues. 

Are you wilfully ignorant, or naturally stupid?


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 14, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Wow, an article about rich Yanks and American attitudes to wealth.
> In a forum for United Kingdom politics and current affairs, on a thread about campaigning against welfare cuts and poverty, when there's a seperate forum for international issues.
> 
> Are you wilfully ignorant, or naturally stupid?


Every shit which is “born” in US  has huge impact on idiots in UK either. Globalism was born and is coming mainly from US not from UK. (just to be clear , not only shit can be created in the US, good ideas as well)

Major ideas  created in the US sooner or later are impacting “followers/ mapets?”  in the UK and rest of the world. 

Everything  what is going on in US is important and has or soon will have impact here.

Are you imbecile or just ignorant, mejt? Orajd

P.S.  I have strange feeling, you must be local "intellectual", do you - do not be shy mejt? Orajd


----------



## Greebo (Dec 14, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Every shit which is “born” in US  has huge impact on idiots in UK either. Globalism was born and is coming mainly from US not from UK. (just to be clear , not only shit can be created in the US, good ideas as well)
> 
> Major ideas  created in the US sooner or later are impacting “followers/ mapets?”  in the UK and rest of the world.<snip>
> 
> ...


You claim to have a strange feeling; in my arrogant opinion, you have a strange smell of revenant.  BTW if you're using dictation software I suggest that you change the setting from Polish or similar to English.

Incidentally, ad hominems and other methods of trading insults are the last resort of somebody who has only just realised that this is the deep end and dog paddle won't cut it.


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 15, 2013)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/13/opinion/krugman-rich-mans-recovery.html?_r=1&


----------



## Greebo (Dec 15, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/13/opinion/krugman-rich-mans-recovery.html?_r=1&


I'd be more interested in the links if you gave your own opinion of them.  As it is, you seem to have next to nothing to say for yourself, Sweetie.


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 15, 2013)

Greebo said:


> I'd be more interested in the links if you gave your own opinion of them.  As it is, you seem to have next to nothing to say for yourself, Sweetie.


that is my opinion, this guy is saying very reasonable things and is difficult to disagree with Mr. Krugman, actually it goes without saying, it is just common sense - what he said. Also it is important who is saying such things and what impact it can have on other  "heavy duty thinkers" like you, darling. Orajd?


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 15, 2013)

Caution: UK border agency PORN, viewer discretion is required. How UKBA organizational impotence may affect you? they caught 1 illegal emigrant (I am so proud of you guys, BRAVO!!!) , there are probably 400 000 left behind (some source are saying about 1 mln ), good luck UKBA! Just think positive, really. Yes, you can  watch out Bulgarians and Romanians are coming, there is nothing better than scapegoats


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 15, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Every shit which is “born” in US  has huge impact on idiots in UK either. Globalism was born and is coming mainly from US not from UK. (just to be clear , not only shit can be created in the US, good ideas as well)



Globalism wasn't born in the USA.  It was born with the triangular slave trade and the rise of the East India Company, centuries ago.  You're conflating neoliberal capitalism (actually born in Austria about a hundred years ago, but hey-ho) with globalism and globalisation.



> Major ideas  created in the US sooner or later are impacting “followers/ mapets?”  in the UK and rest of the world.



It's not a one-way stream.



> Everything  what is going on in US is important and has or soon will have impact here.



Really? "Everything"? Even in a world as interconnected as ours is, that's not true.



> Are you imbecile or just ignorant, mejt? Orajd
> 
> P.S.  I have strange feeling, you must be local "intellectual", do you - do not be shy mejt? Orajd



I have a strange feeling you'd call anyone an intellectual, even a 12-year old child, if they displayed a better, less ridiculous grasp on geopolitics than you've so far shown.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 15, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> that is my opinion, this guy is saying very reasonable things and is difficult to disagree with Mr. Krugman, actually it goes without saying, it is just common sense - what he said. Also it is important who is saying such things and what impact it can have on other  "heavy duty thinkers" like you, darling. Orajd?


Nie, kochanie. BTW the word is "alright".  World politics that way --------------------------------------------------------------------------->

I do hope that your lips weren't moving as you struggled to make sense of this.


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 15, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Nie, kochanie. BTW the word is "alright".  World politics that way --------------------------------------------------------------------------->
> 
> I do hope that your lips weren't moving as you struggled to make sense of this.


You must be "heavy duty thinker", then. I feel smell of "common sense" here, orjad?


----------



## Greebo (Dec 15, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> You must be "heavy duty thinker", then. I feel smell of "common sense" here, orjad?


Nie.  Battle-scarred cynic and disappointed to have long since discovered that common sense is scarce (and hardly used).  General section that way if you insist on chit chat -------------------------->

Meanwhile, I'll go back to such trivia as attempting to work out what the impact of next year's benefits increases will have in relation to the benefits cap.  Each time I attempt it, my eyes insist on sliding off the PDF.


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 15, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Globalism wasn't born in the USA.  It was born with the triangular slave trade and the rise of the East India Company, centuries ago.  You're conflating neoliberal capitalism (actually born in Austria about a hundred years ago, but hey-ho) with globalism and globalisation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What kind of  "grasp of geopolitic" you showed? tell me
P.S. I am very impressed of your Economy history knowledge, that means something to me. ;-)


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 15, 2013)

http://billmoyers.com/2013/12/11/the-us-is-exporting-its-extreme-inequality-abroad/


----------



## Greebo (Dec 15, 2013)

Okay, can anyone on here apart from the twit who thinks that the USA is directly relevant to this section tell me this please?  

How will the benefit cap affect a 2 adult household (no children) where both are of working age, and one currently receives the premium related to Carer's Allowance, while the other receives high-high DLA, IB, and there's a joint claim for IS.  There's also rent of approximately £500 pcm currently covered by HB (apart from about £20).  The figures are out there on the net, but I just can't make sense of how they interact.


----------



## Jackobi (Dec 15, 2013)

The current benefits cap does not affect the household, Greebo. Because a member of the household claims DLA, it is exempt.


----------



## alonsoss (Dec 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Okay, can anyone on here apart from the twit who thinks that the USA is directly relevant to this section tell me this please?
> 
> How will the benefit cap affect a 2 adult household (no children) where both are of working age, and one currently receives the premium related to Carer's Allowance, while the other receives high-high DLA, IB, and there's a joint claim for IS.  There's also rent of approximately £500 pcm currently covered by HB (apart from about £20).  The figures are out there on the net, but I just can't make sense of how they interact.


"campaign - work in an organized and active way towards a goal." orajd idiot?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 16, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> "campaign - work in an organized and active way towards a goal." orajd idiot?


Your continued pointless insults are not acceptable. Kindly desist.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 16, 2013)

(and not at FM)


----------



## Greebo (Dec 16, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> The current benefits cap does not affect the household, Greebo. Because a member of the household claims DLA, it is exempt.


That's only the cap for the housing benefit and council tax benefit.  I'm referring to the benefit cap which will come in in April (or would) if Universal Credit starts.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 16, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> (and not at FM)


I smell LLETSA, or is it Falcon?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 16, 2013)

In answer to the question, I can't find anything definite about the benefit cap in England.  What's out there seems to suggest that a household where someone's getting DLA will be exempt from the cap, but it all seems a bit vague, and may depend on whatever numbers IDS pulls out of the air between now and whenever the whole damn shambles gets implemented.

(ETA - in relation to UC that is)


----------



## Greebo (Dec 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> That's only the cap for the housing benefit and council tax benefit.  I'm referring to the benefit cap which will come in in April (or would) if Universal Credit starts.


The thing is, DLA is exempt, but CA isn't and neither is IB/ESA - ah fuck it.  If it happens it happens.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> The thing is, DLA is exempt, but CA isn't and neither is IB/ESA - ah fuck it.  If it happens it happens.



The way I read it, a household where someone gets DLA will be exempt, so the other benefits don't matter in this case.

PIP and support group ESA also appear to trigger exemption from the benefits cap where it happens now 

My source here (which is Scotland, but is linked to from one of Advice Guide England's pages on the subject...)

All of this of course is subject to change.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 16, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> In answer to the question, I can't find anything definite about the benefit cap in England.<snip>


Thanks, that was sort of what it looked like but...  I said this would happen, I said it was coming, and what the fuck did anyone who could have stopped it do to stop it?  Not a lot.   

So now, while there's still a roof over my head, and while I'm not yet about to be shoved onto workfare, and until my husband is sent to a rehabilitation centre (also in the pipeline), I have the luxury of being scared and angry but unable to do any-fucking-thing about it.  All this time, where the fuck is any left of centre MP?  What the fuck have the unions done?  Even thew SWP who'll *ahem* support any protest given the chance seem to have been amazingly silent when it comes to benefits claimants and disabled people.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> and until my husband is sent to a rehabilitation centre (also in the pipeline)


----------



## Greebo (Dec 16, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> <snip>


Neither kidding nor exaggerating.  People with certain conditions, including M.E., will be sent for rehabilitation in residential centres.  The alternative is a highly probable loss of benefits.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Neither kidding nor exaggerating.  People with certain conditions, including M.E., will be sent for rehabilitation in residential centres.  The alternative is a highly probable loss of benefits.



 does not start to cover it...


----------



## Jackobi (Dec 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> I'm referring to the benefit cap which will come in in April (or would) if Universal Credit starts.



The exemptions are similar to the existing cap, under current plans for UC, households in which a partner or dependent child claims DLA or PIP are exempt from the cap. Meaning that all other benefits received are unaffected if you or your partner claim DLA/PIP.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> I'd be more interested in the links if you gave your own opinion of them.  As it is, you seem to have next to nothing to say for yourself, Sweetie.


She called you "sweetie".

The only way to save yourself is "yes, ma'am". Do you have your own forelock? If not, borrow one. Fast.

Incidentally, I agree with her: posters who do no more than spew links are invariably shitheads.

ETA: fixed now, editor. Apologies [explanation for the archivists: tapatalk did its legendary quote-random-post-from-dawn-of-time nonsense, and happened to pick one of editor's posts]


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2013)

existentialist said:


> No
> She called you "sweetie".
> 
> The only way to save yourself is "yes, ma'am". Do you have your own forelock? If not, borrow one. Fast.
> ...


Can you edit me out of this post please. Thanks.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 16, 2013)

editor said:


> Can you edit me out of this post please. Thanks.


It are done.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> I smell LLETSA, or is it Falcon?



Soz to ceaselessy keep being LLETSA's cheerleader but I doubt it's him. Almost every one of his aliases have been a forename and a surname IFSWIM, and when he's come back he's never adopted a persona, he's always just posted as himself.

Anyway, I've had a bit of a look for info about the benefit cap & I can't make head nor tale of it either. Soz. Fingers crossed for you though. Like that's any use.


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Neither kidding nor exaggerating.  People with certain conditions, including M.E., will be sent for rehabilitation in residential centres.  The alternative is a highly probable loss of benefits.



'kinell. I thought i'd seen it being suggested, didn't realise it'd actually been made do-able. That's terrifying.

Everything crossed that you & vp aren't hit by this new tsunami of inhumane shit/that DLA exempts you from the benefit cap.
Actually, make that fingers crossed for any/everyone who may be affected by it all.

^^ Not very well put, but ykwim.


----------



## treelover (Dec 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Neither kidding nor exaggerating.  People with certain conditions, including M.E., will be sent for rehabilitation in residential centres.  The alternative is a highly probable loss of benefits.




Where is the source for this?, its back to the 19th C, it certainly won't be convalescence as it used to be understood, its basically criminalising illness.


----------



## treelover (Dec 16, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> The current benefits cap does not affect the household, Greebo. Because a member of the household claims DLA, it is exempt.




It is now very very easy to lose DLA, and I suspect PIP


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2013)

treelover said:


> It is now very very easy to lose DLA, and I suspect PIP


hence the phrase 'PIPped at the post'


----------



## Greebo (Dec 16, 2013)

treelover said:


> Where is the source for this?, its back to the 19th C, it certainly won't be convalescence as it used to be understood, its basically criminalising illness.


It's now been in the pipeline for several months, which means that I've lost track of the original link.  But it was one of the more credible sources.


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 16, 2013)

How sharia may affect your benefits?


----------



## BigTom (Dec 16, 2013)

100,000 historic sanctions being applied: http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=3116

All the sanctions that had to be suspended after the workfare court ruling - for far wider than just workfare as the letter there shows - are now being applied. Anyone who gets this should appeal, try to do so on the basis that you no longer have the evidence you need to show the sanction was wrong, let BW know if it works. This is well fucked up, hopefully some people are now in jobs and can't be sanctioned, but I bet they start demanding repayments from people in that position.
--
Wasn't Osborne saying something about residential centres in his tory conference speech this year?


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> How sharia may affect your benefits?


Do you have an opinion to express here because just cutting and pasting the same video up all over these boards is only going to get you banned.


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 16, 2013)

editor said:


> Do you have an opinion to express here because just cutting and pasting the same video up all over these boards is only going to get you banned.


I just asked the question, quite simply question, let me repeat "How sharia may affect your benefits"?:


----------



## ddraig (Dec 16, 2013)

what is your opinion on "How sharia may affect your benefits"?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 16, 2013)

This would be a duplicate account of "alonsoss" and "alonson".


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 16, 2013)

ddraig said:


> what is your opinion on "How sharia may affect your benefits"?


It may affect.


----------



## ddraig (Dec 16, 2013)

in what way may it affect?


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 16, 2013)

ddraig said:


> in what way may it affect?


In way of banning the benefits. What is your opinion?


----------



## ddraig (Dec 16, 2013)

why do you think that it will ban benefits? anything to back it up at all from anywhere?

my opinion is that it is a strange subject to use. unless you have something to back it up


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 16, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> In way of banning the benefits. What is your opinion?



My opinion is that you're a penis.

And I say that as an alcoholic who's benefits probably _will_ get stopped when the govt start doing drug/alcohol tests for benefit claimants. Which they probably will. Fuck all to do with Sharia though, the vidoe you posted is of irrelevent basket cases.
E2a - Why do I always post video as vidoe? Twice I've done that in the last 24 hours.


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 16, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> My opinion is that you're a penis.
> 
> And I say that as an alcoholic who's benefits probably _will_ get stopped when the govt start doing drug/alcohol tests for benefit claimants. Which they probably will. Fuck all to do with Sharia though, the vidoe you posted is of irrelevent basket cases.
> E2a - Why do I always post video as vidoe? Twice I've done that in the last 24 hours.


How penis can judge anyone as a penis? Do not take me wrong it is philosophical question really.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 16, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> How penis can judge anyone as a penis? Do not take me wrong it is philosophical question really.


By their fruits shall ye know them.  Philosophy section that way ------------------------------------>


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 16, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> How penis can judge anyone as a penis? Do not take me wrong it is philosophical question really.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 16, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> I just asked the question, quite simply question, let me repeat "How sharia may affect your benefits"?:


Except that when the "simply question" is accompanied by the same video, one might just start to wonder if it being accompanied by the faint sound of a grinding axe.

Anyway, editor doesn't need my help, so I'm going to leave you to his tender mercies. Muahaha.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> By their fruits shall ye know them.  Philosophy section that way ------------------------------------>


Would the fruit of a penis be "low hanging fruit"?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 16, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Would the fruit of a penis be "low hanging fruit"?



Not bad. But the obvious retort would be "Callin me fruity?"


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 16, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Would the fruit of a penis be "low hanging fruit"?


very deep broadcasting


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 16, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Not bad. But the obvious retort would be "Callin me fruity?"


rotten fruit and penis


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 16, 2013)




----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 16, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> rotten fruit and penis



Still want to suck on it though? All that banana goodness. With all flies swarming round it? You know you do.


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> I just asked the question, quite simply question, let me repeat "How sharia may affect your benefits"?:


You tried to spam the same video clip over four threads. Seeing as you clearly think it's so vitally important, perhaps you should now articulate an opinion about it.


----------



## Jackobi (Dec 16, 2013)

treelover said:


> It is now very very easy to lose DLA, and I suspect PIP



It's a frightening position to be in, particularly in London, where not qualifying for disability benefits or losing them means the cap kicks in. The resultant loss of income from DLA is then compounded. 

It makes me so fucking angry, which is why my post may have seemed apathetic, it's a switch off and detach mechanism to save my blood pressure.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 16, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> very deep broadcasting


Somehow, you posting about nobs seems strangely...appropriate.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 16, 2013)

Here is a depressingly telling comment from the Guardian about the sanction regime at the DWP:



> In an effort to counter some of the bad press that the new tougher benefit conditionality and harsher sanctions have received the DWP intranet carried a 'good news' story last week.
> 8 case studies were published detailing the thanks that had been given to various staff for sanctioning or threatening to sanction jobseekers. A typical comment was something along the lines of "Getting sanctioned was my wake up call. It was the kick up the backside I needed to understand that looking for work was my full-time job. I now have a part-time job in a fast food restaurant and I take extra hours as and when I can get them. I'd like to thank my adviser for getting me to take job-seeking seriously"...



The clock has struck 13. I love you Big brother!


----------



## existentialist (Dec 16, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Here is a depressingly telling comment from the Guardian about the sanction regime at the DWP:
> 
> 
> 
> The clock has struck 13. I love you Big brother!


The thing is, that is _such_ a telling quote! "I now have a part-time job in a fast food restaurant and I take extra hours as and when I can get them."

To be honest, if I were trying to quietly poison the DWP well, that's exactly the kind of quote I'd use: it just reeks of "get them off the dole and onto wageslave zero-hour contracts".

So there's two possibilities - either some savvy dissident is feeding this nonsense into the DWP, secure in the knowledge that the management, from the very top, will swallow it whole, or they really are so stupid as to think that forcing people onto minimum-wage jobs and zero-hour contracts is a decent way to manage a workforce.

Either way, I hope it comes back to bite them hard on the arse.


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 17, 2013)

editor said:


> You tried to spam the same video clip over four threads. Seeing as you clearly think it's so vitally important, perhaps you should now articulate an opinion about it.


I think broadcast of this video can defend itself. Everyone who has brain is able to make clear conclusion.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 17, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> I think broadcast of this video can defend itself. Everyone who has brain is able to make clear conclusion.


Have some consideration for people with mobile broadband and limited data allowances - I can't afford to look at more than about 12 minutes in total of youtube per month.


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 17, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Have some consideration for people with mobile broadband and limited data allowances - I can't afford to look at more than about 12 minutes in total of youtube per month.


Once upon a time (8 years ago) I paid £10 for unlimited 40h access to broadband in local internet cafe - it is not very convenient but obviously it is worth (to be well informed). Or in Virgin mobile for £15 a month (SIM only) you have:  all data + calls + sms unlimited


----------



## Greebo (Dec 17, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> Once upon a time (8 years ago) I paid £10 for unlimited 40h access to broadband in local internet cafe - it is not very convenient but obviously it worth (to be well informed). Or in Virgin mobile for £15 a month (SIM only) you have:  all data + calls + sms unlimited


Sweetie - no smart phone, just a dongle.

The nearest internet cafe is a bus ride away  - not a viable option for an unpaid carer who is on call 24/7.  I'm not a person of leisure.


----------



## editor (Dec 17, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> I think broadcast of this video can defend itself. Everyone who has brain is able to make clear conclusion.


I've concluded that you're a spammer who is unable/unwilling to articulate a coherent opinion on the matter. Why else would you try and post the same video four times all over the boards?

Who made the video? What was their motive? Why is it important? What do you think of it?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 17, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Have some consideration for people with mobile broadband and limited data allowances - I can't afford to look at more than about 12 minutes in total of youtube per month.


Me too. A vast 15gb a month with my dongle and a PAYG for those days it doesn't quite stretch to. Youtubes are special occasions only.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 17, 2013)

existentialist said:


> The thing is, that is _such_ a telling quote! "I now have a part-time job in a fast food restaurant and I take extra hours as and when I can get them."
> 
> To be honest, if I were trying to quietly poison the DWP well, that's exactly the kind of quote I'd use: it just reeks of "get them off the dole and onto wageslave zero-hour contracts".
> 
> ...


sadly i don't think that likely. This situation does 2 things:  firstly it justifies the brutality coming from the DWP becuase it's directly getting people jobs. Even if they are shit jobs - no one cares. Secondly it bolsters the notion that the unemployed are feckless as they clearly need threats to give them a kick up the arse.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 17, 2013)

BigTom said:


> 100,000 historic sanctions being applied: http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=3116
> 
> All the sanctions that had to be suspended after the workfare court ruling - for far wider than just workfare as the letter there shows - are now being applied. Anyone who gets this should appeal, try to do so on the basis that you no longer have the evidence you need to show the sanction was wrong, let BW know if it works. This is well fucked up, hopefully some people are now in jobs and can't be sanctioned, but I bet they start demanding repayments from people in that position.
> --
> Wasn't Osborne saying something about residential centres in his tory conference speech this year?


So they are sanctioning people for not undertaking workfare a year later? I'm not sure I fully understand, but this looks to be utterly monstrous!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 17, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> In way of banning the benefits. What is your opinion?



Why would sharia, a form of law that exalts the five pillars of Islam, ban benefits? Benefits allow people with less to at least approach a par with others who are better-off.  There'd be no reason (despite what a few pro-Wahhabi Islamists say) to remove them - they would fulfill part of the state's obligations to the populace under Islam, just as they do under our current secular regime.


----------



## BigTom (Dec 17, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> So they are sanctioning people for not undertaking workfare a year later? I'm not sure I fully understand, but this looks to be utterly monstrous!



Basically yeah, but not just workfare by the looks of it, some/all work programme sanctions were suspended too, so if you missed workfare/an appointment/etc instead of getting sanctioned there and then, they've stockpiled it until after the court case stuff was resolved and are applying it now.
So someone who had a clash of JCP and WP appointments in March and went to the JCP one as they were told at the time, but got reffered for a sanction as they've not attended the WP appointment, will have had that sanction referral suspended until now (as it was ruled illegal by the court case in Feb, then made legal by the retroactive legislation, but they've waited until now when they appeal ruling said the sanctions were illegal*). Now the sanction that was suspended is being applied, and that perons has to find the evidence that they were told to go to the JCP appointment or they get sanctioned now.

* I don't understand why they waited, as the legislation was in place to allow them to apply these sanctions, but they did.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 17, 2013)

This is digusting.

I'd like to apply a sanction...to Duncan Smith's FACE!


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 17, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> This is digusting.
> 
> I'd like to apply a sanction...to Duncan Smith's FACE!



I can think of far better parts of him to apply a sanction* to 

*wrapped in sandpaper and barbed wire, with chilli oil for lube.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 17, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> I can think of far better parts of him to apply a sanction* to
> 
> *wrapped in sandpaper and barbed wire, with chilli oil for lube.



He'd probably like it though - Remind him of those barrack-room initiation ceremonies he and the chaps used to conduct back in those halcyon army days.


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 17, 2013)

editor said:


> I've concluded that you're a spammer who is unable/unwilling to articulate a coherent opinion on the matter. Why else would you try and post the same video four times all over the boards?
> 
> Who made the video? What was their motive? Why is it important? What do you think of it?


It is important because it may affect benefit. Each thread is different - here are benefits , in other sections different topics. One article can be seen from different perspective depends on context. May I ask you personal question? Do you hold PhD from OxCam or from any other noble... uni? I have strange feeling you may do......or at least MA ;-)?


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## tufty79 (Dec 17, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> It is important because it may affect benefit



Really? When did sharia law get taken under the dwp's wing? Must've missed that.




Hadrianus said:


> May I ask you personal question?


May I ask *you* a personal question? Why are you posting on here under the(at least) three usernames?




FridgeMagnet said:


> This would be a duplicate account of "alonsoss" and "alonson".


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 17, 2013)

And apologies for the superfluous 'the' -  joy of random words added by predictive text.


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 17, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> Really? When did sharia law get taken under the dwp's wing? Must've missed that.
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask *you* a personal question? Why are you posting on here under the(at least) three usernames?


Is not but it may in the future, it depends on "heavy duty thinkers" like you either


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 17, 2013)

May I ask *you* a personal question? Why are you posting on here under the(at least) three usernames?[/quote]
three? I thought there are eight, world is full of suprises


----------



## existentialist (Dec 17, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> It is important because it may affect benefit. Each thread is different - here are benefits , in other sections different topics. One article can be seen from different perspective depends on context. May I ask you personal question? Do you hold PhD from OxCam or from any other noble... uni? I have strange feeling you may do......or at least MA ;-)?


You're strange.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 17, 2013)

*wonders if the banhammer gets some tinsel added for xmas*


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 17, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> *wonders if the banhammer gets some tinsel added for xmas*


I like to think it has bells on


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 17, 2013)

existentialist said:


> You're strange.


Thanks  you too.


----------



## _angel_ (Dec 17, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Neither kidding nor exaggerating.  People with certain conditions, including M.E., will be sent for rehabilitation in residential centres.  The alternative is a highly probable loss of benefits.


This sounds way more expensive than benefits...? Where is the information for this? How will they get there etc.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 17, 2013)

I think this is it.

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/201...-workfare-for-unemployed-and-disabled-people/


----------



## _angel_ (Dec 17, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> I think this is it.
> 
> http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/201...-workfare-for-unemployed-and-disabled-people/


It sounds expensive as it says in the article and not mandatory. I can't see why they'd spend so much money to be honest.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 17, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> It sounds expensive as it says in the article and not mandatory. I can't see why they'd spend so much money to be honest.


If it's residential, bang goes your mobility component DLA.  If care is provided on site, bang goes your care component too.  And bang goes any CA linked to your receipt of middle or high care DLA.


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## _angel_ (Dec 17, 2013)

this will cost more than that, not a goer


----------



## 8115 (Dec 17, 2013)

Article on the real life impact of the benefit cuts in the Guardian.  Whatever you think of the Guardian, I think it's good this is being talked about, and I was impressed by the article.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/16/welfare-cuts-government-coalition-benefits


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 17, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> Is not but it may in the future, it depends on "*heavy duty thinkers*" like you either


h
Better than being a heavy duty wanker though. Nowt left but a bloodied stump, lad?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 17, 2013)

8115 said:


> Article on the real life impact of the benefit cuts in the Guardian.  Whatever you think of the Guardian, I think it's good this is being talked about, and I was impressed by the article.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/16/welfare-cuts-government-coalition-benefits


Also according to the G apparently 2/3 of single mums are missing meals to feed their kids.

FFS IDS, just fucking kill yourself. Do something honourable.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 17, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> this will cost more than that, not a goer


It's already happening. I'll see if I can find the links.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 17, 2013)

https://www.gov.uk/residential-training/further-information

Queen Alexandra College and Queen Elizabeth’s Foundation are already claiming from DWP for 'customers' placed there.


----------



## _angel_ (Dec 17, 2013)

icant see that on here


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 17, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/17/government-under-fire-eu-funding-food-banks


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 17, 2013)

Snip from an xls file I have of DWP spends for October 2013 showing payments made for residential training. Reasonably small amount for now but I expect it to rise as the months go by.


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 17, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> Snip from an xls file I have of DWP spends for October 2013 showing payments made for residential training. Reasonably small amount for now but I expect it to rise as the months go by.
> View attachment 45116


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 17, 2013)

Quick snip of Welfare to Work totals for October. £85 million..

ESF = European Social fund for families with multiple problems
FSF = Equipment or fares for work paid to Matalan etc.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 17, 2013)

A friend who has had call to use the local food bank on occasion the last year or so (partly due to DWP balls-ups resulting in benefits being stopped, partly due to mental health issues making budgeting difficult) has sent me an e-mail suggesting a donation to the Trussell Trust for xmas.

I have a fairly major  as far as they are concerned, but on the other paw suppose they are better than people starving to death.

Does the panel think I should make a donation?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 17, 2013)

Check if there are any independent non Trussell franchised food banks in your area first that could make use of the donation. Food Share or similar. They tend to struggle to get good overall basics donated.

Edited to add.. They generally don't stick to the three visits only and are far more lenient in needing to be sent from an official body.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 18, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> *Check if there are any *i*ndependent non Trussell franchised food banks in your area first *that could make use of the donation. Food Share or similar. They tend to struggle to get good overall basics donated.
> 
> Edited to add.. They generally don't stick to the three visits only and are far more lenient in needing to be sent from an official body.




Yeah, seconded Puddy_Tat   - Loads of churches do ad-hoc food donations - Maybe give to one of them? Even if you're not religious (I'm not), churches do do  a lot of good for people who are on their arses - Even though they shouldn't have to.

Or these if you're anywhere near Manchester. These aren't affiliated to any church or faith or owt like that (just coz it's called Mission, they aren't god botherers), they've been making it their business to help people out for well over a century.
http://www.woodstreetmission.org.uk/


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 18, 2013)

From here (pdf link).



> 1.7
> People can only be referred to Residential Training Providers by Disability Employment Advisers (DEAs). A DEA’s role will be as a consultant ‘gatekeeper’ and will be the main referral point for Jobcentre Plus Personal Advisers.
> 1.8
> Trainees receive a flexible mix of directed and practical training, which could last up to a maximum of 52 weeks. The aim is to help the individual compete in the job market by gaining the skills and experience they need to obtain and retain employment.
> 8



and on the subject of benefits:



> Section 7
> Training Allowances
> 1.Whilst participating in a Residential Training programme, trainees may haveexpenses reimbursed so that, in general, they are not disadvantaged byparticipation and are provided with some positive incentive to undertake training.
> 2.Trainees in training can receive a variety of payments from different sources. It isessential that trainees are fully aware of entitlements before they start training andvisit the Jobcentre to establish their allowance levels. Providers should despatchform SL2JP to the DEA as soon as a start date is agreed. Providers shouldensure that trainees have attended the Jobcentre prior to entering training.
> ...



Really not sure what to make of this. Nine facilities for conditions such as blindness or deafness. It's all a bit odd.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 18, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> A friend who has had call to use the local food bank on occasion the last year or so (partly due to DWP balls-ups resulting in benefits being stopped, partly due to mental health issues making budgeting difficult) has sent me an e-mail suggesting a donation to the Trussell Trust for xmas.
> 
> I have a fairly major  as far as they are concerned, but on the other paw suppose they are better than people starving to death.
> 
> Does the panel think I should make a donation?


More importantly, do people get a choice as to where they can be referred?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 18, 2013)

I'm


Awesome Wells said:


> More importantly, do people get a choice as to where they can be referred?


I'm sure it's to the FB closest to them. Before our local independent one opened up the nearest one was 20 miles away.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 18, 2013)

Eoin Clarke, Green Benches was putting together a list of food banks and asking people to contact him with any in their areas not on the list.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 18, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> More importantly, do people get a choice as to where they can be referred?



In friend's case, not sure how it works (I don't like to ask too many questions about it) - I don't know if it's the sort you can just drop in to, or whether you need a ticket of some sort from the DWP / church or what.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 18, 2013)

It is my understanding, though i have (fortunately) no direct experience, that one needs to be referred. If there are places that operate otherwise then that's their business.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 18, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> I'm
> 
> I'm sure it's to the FB closest to them. Before our local independent one opened up the nearest one was 20 miles away.


Living in the country the nearest to me, iirrc, is 10 miles away. Can't really expect peolpe to walk to and from (though a couple who eventually killed themselves did a similar journey).


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 18, 2013)

Aye. many here, including myself, were unable to get to the one 20 miles away and the local one starting up was seriously welcomed. I've not used it but I do go in and help out when I'm in the town and have a cuppa tea with them.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 18, 2013)

I have never known hate as much as I have in listening to Esther fucking McVey bullshit her way in dodging the issue of foodbanks.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 18, 2013)

Jobless figures fall to a 4 year low.

Yeah, because that's a reflection of people moving into work, rather than people being corruptly moved off benefits.  Makes me so angry that they are celebrating this stuff.


----------



## ddraig (Dec 18, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> It is important because it may affect benefit. Each thread is different - here are benefits , in other sections different topics. One article can be seen from different perspective depends on context. May I ask you personal question? Do you hold PhD from OxCam or from any other noble... uni? I have strange feeling you may do......or at least MA ;-)?


answer the fucking questions ffs


----------



## BigTom (Dec 18, 2013)

8115 said:


> Jobless figures fall to a 4 year low.
> 
> Yeah, because that's a reflection of people moving into work, rather than people being corruptly moved off benefits.  Makes me so angry that they are celebrating this stuff.



Loads of people being encouraged/pushed to be "self-employed" and claim WTC instead of JSA too. No more working than someone on JSA but not counted in jobless figures either. Plus everyone who is working part time cos they can't find full time work.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 18, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Loads of people being encouraged/pushed to be "self-employed" and claim WTC instead of JSA too. No more working than someone on JSA but not counted in jobless figures either. Plus everyone who is working part time cos they can't find full time work.


Plus people who just *manage* somehow.  They manage on one tiny salary between two instead of that plus JSA.  They borrow from their families.  Grrr.  I'm angry again.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 18, 2013)

8115 said:


> Jobless figures fall to a 4 year low.
> 
> Yeah, because that's a reflection of people moving into work, rather than people being corruptly moved off benefits.  Makes me so angry that they are celebrating this stuff.


I fail to see how anyone can find a job if they are using the government's website.


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 18, 2013)

ddraig said:


> answer the fucking questions ffs


with pleasure, can you articulate the question? be precise, please


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 18, 2013)

McVague.. The Mirror. 




> Lots of anger at Esther McVey's comments during the food bank debate.
> 
> She said: "As we are saying, it is positive that people are reaching out to support other people - from church groups to community groups, to local supermarkets and other groups.
> 
> "*In the UK it is right that more people are... going to food banks because as times are tough*, we are all having to pay back this £1.5 trillion debt personally which spiralled under Labour, we are all trying to live within our means, change the gear and make sure that we pay back all our debt which happened under them."


----------



## weepiper (Dec 18, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> McVague.. The Mirror.


that would be the Esther McVey who claimed £170,928 on her expenses last year, a rise of nearly £28,000 on her previous year's expense claim? That's her trying to live within her means like we're all having to, is it?

http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/10682627.Wirral_MPs__expenses_revealed/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 18, 2013)

The very same.


----------



## ddraig (Dec 18, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> with pleasure, can you articulate the question? be precise, please


the ones already put to you!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 18, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> McVague.. The Mirror.


Her behaviour during that debate was more than I could bear. I don't know what the outcome was, though I imagine the whole thing was pointless.

She is simply one of the most conceited, disingenuous, self aggrandising liars I have ever had the misfortune to see. I think she is worse than IDS. I felt physically sick listening to her dissembling; it was like some wannabe actress (which is what she is). Her complete misrepresentation of the economic crisis was so utterly biased and so full of bullshit as to border on the psychotic. 

And wannabe actress is spot on; her delivery is painfully amateurish. She sounds like the try hard luvvie wannabe pub bore who tries to sound smarter than she is, but fails conspicously and painfully.

How the hell this fucking cunt, this nasty evil bitch (a word I do not like to use), ever got elected I do not know - and I'm not sure I want to know. She represents everything that is wrong in our society.


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 18, 2013)

ddraig said:


> the ones already put to you!


sorry I cannot remember


----------



## ddraig (Dec 18, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> sorry I cannot remember


these for starters


editor said:


> I've concluded that you're a spammer who is unable/unwilling to articulate a coherent opinion on the matter. Why else would you try and post the same video four times all over the boards?
> 
> Who made the video? What was their motive? Why is it important? What do you think of it?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 18, 2013)

The vote went to the Gov as usual. Ayes..251 Nos.. 294 with a Tory/LimpDumb pile in. Still these debates show them for the absolute bastards they are and a lot of people were watching today.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 18, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> The vote went to the Gov as usual. Ayes..251 Nos.. 294 with a Tory/LimpDumb pile in. Still these debates show them for the absolute bastards they are and a lot of people were watching today.


My thinking also.

I hope come 2015 a lot of people, particularly Libdem supporters, remember this. One of the most appalling demonstrations in the house of entitlement and privilege I have ever seen. IDS scurrying away because he simply can't be bothered and conservatives whooping and hollering like dogs...


----------



## Hadrianus (Dec 18, 2013)

ddraig said:


> these for starters


aaaaa video was taken from dailymail, the motive was to spread sharia law on dumb society who is no obeying any laws only consuming and consuming and drinking and drinking, so basically this guys are trying to help you by impose on your fat ass 40 lashes because you are drinker and smoker. It is important because Christmas is coming so it is very important. I think it would be cool to see how 40 lashes are falling on your fat, drunk, smoky ass, but in my modest opinion you should get 80 lashes


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 18, 2013)

oh go away


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 18, 2013)

#foodbankdebate is trending tonight kids!


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 18, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Loads of people being encouraged/pushed to be "self-employed" and claim WTC instead of JSA too. No more working than someone on JSA but not counted in jobless figures either. Plus everyone who is working part time cos they can't find full time work.


Even by their own statistics the rise in self employment mirrors the drop in unemployment. 

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lmac/.../february-2013/rpt-self-employed-workers.html


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 18, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> Check if there are any independent non Trussell franchised food banks in your area first that could make use of the donation. Food Share or similar. They tend to struggle to get good overall basics donated.
> 
> Edited to add.. They generally don't stick to the three visits only and are far more lenient in needing to be sent from an official body.



Hmm.

There is one local thing that's very church based, all the others round here seem to be Trussell.

I feel deeply uncomfortable with the idea of donating to food banks.

The whole damn thing stinks.

The religious angle makes me 

The cronyism between several of the high profile bosses and the tories makes me 

The cosiness with the big supermarkets who encourage people to spend money in their shitty shops to buy things to give to foodbanks, so those foodbanks can give stuff to people among whom may well be people on workfare at those sodding supermarkets, makes me want to throw bricks.

And while I don't want to see people starving in the street, I want there to be a proper social security system and for foodbanks not to have to exist.

Blargh.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 19, 2013)

Word. 

All of us at one time or another pay National Insurance in the expectation that all of us can be adequately supported in times of need, without needing to turn to friends, relatives, or charity.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 19, 2013)

8115 said:


> Plus people who just *manage* somehow.  They manage on one tiny salary between two instead of that plus JSA.  They borrow from their families.  Grrr.  I'm angry again.


I try to listen to everything on the news about benefits and employment, but I had to turn Eton Boy's gloating off, as there was a real danger I was going to crash the car.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 19, 2013)

Hadrianus said:


> with pleasure, can you articulate the question? be precise, please


I have a question for you:what is it that you hope to achieve by refusing to engage civilly with anyone, and just spamming a YouTube link around the boards?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 19, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Even by their own statistics the rise in self employment mirrors the drop in unemployment.
> 
> http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lmac/.../february-2013/rpt-self-employed-workers.html


This will come back to haunt the government (or the next) when these people get asked to repay their working tax credits from not having made enough money.

The DWP has always encouraged self emplouyment, regardless of whether it's suitable or not.


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 19, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> This will come back to haunt the government (or the next) when these people get asked to repay their working tax credits from not having made enough money.
> 
> The DWP has always encouraged self emplouyment, regardless of whether it's suitable or not.


I'm sorry, have you got a link for that? Since when was it likely you would have to pay back your tax credits? It's always been benefits by the back door afaik. 

I'm well aware of their track record with encouraging self employment, but in all honesty they've now had so many years to load the system that it's genuinely a better option than the dole for many people. I spent a large part of the  year before last dreaming of being employed long enough for a tax credits claim to be processed. I'd have been richer than Croesus compared to my situation at the time. 

For many tax credits are a lesser evil, and as I said I know several people who are successfully self employed doing fairly low level work - if someone is genuinely likely to end up in a less appalling situation by employing themselves then I'm still in favour of it. You can't actually escape the system unless you want to go live in a muddy bender up a mountain and eat nothing but nettles,  cliff-fall mutton and worms.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 19, 2013)

8115 said:


> Jobless figures fall to a 4 year low.
> 
> Yeah, because that's a reflection of people moving into work, rather than people being corruptly moved off benefits.  Makes me so angry that they are celebrating this stuff.



Have you noticed how often they now elide actual "job creation" stats when releasing the "jobless" figures nowadays?
Like you say, wouldn't do for people to add 2 and 2 together and realise that the lower figures are down to sanctioning and training regimes, not to the vibrancy of the job market in a growth economy (ha fucking ha!).


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 19, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I'm sorry, have you got a link for that? Since when was it likely you would have to pay back your tax credits? It's always been benefits by the back door afaik.



There have certainly been reported stories of people being told "we've paid you too much in tax credits, you now owe us a large sum of money, can we have it back now, plzkthx" or words to that effect.

This BBC story suggests that people who aren't really self employed could be asked to repay 'overpaid' tax credits.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 19, 2013)

I thought they could also claim back overpaid benefits.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 19, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I'm sorry, have you got a link for that? Since when was it likely you would have to pay back your tax credits? It's always been benefits by the back door afaik.
> 
> I'm well aware of their track record with encouraging self employment, but in all honesty they've now had so many years to load the system that it's genuinely a better option than the dole for many people. I spent a large part of the  year before last dreaming of being employed long enough for a tax credits claim to be processed. I'd have been richer than Croesus compared to my situation at the time.
> 
> For many tax credits are a lesser evil, and as I said I know several people who are successfully self employed doing fairly low level work - if someone is genuinely likely to end up in a less appalling situation by employing themselves then I'm still in favour of it. You can't actually escape the system unless you want to go live in a muddy bender up a mountain and eat nothing but nettles,  cliff-fall mutton and worms.


I have no link. But I remember a CAB spokesman discussing this on the radio: if you declare yourself as self employed and claim tax credits to top your income up, you can be asked to repay what you've declared if your business doesn't earn enough. The point was that JC's were selling people the idea of self employment without explaining the risks or pitfalls and that people can't just expect to be 'self employed' and claim tax credits to live on.


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 19, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> There have certainly been reported stories of people being told "we've paid you too much in tax credits, you now owe us a large sum of money, can we have it back now, plzkthx" or words to that effect.
> 
> This BBC story suggests that people who aren't really self employed could be asked to repay 'overpaid' tax credits.


Yes but that's often people who haven't kept the tax credits people up to date with changing situations or who have spent money they weren't strictly meant to get. I'd be massively surprised if the same didn't apply to other benefits under similar circumstances.

I'd never suggest that anyone should "pretend" to be self employed to get tax credits, but afaik so long as someone is genuinely doing their best to start a business they aren't about to get done for fraud and end up having to pay money back. With the current trends in JSA enforcement surely fewer and fewer people are "unsuitable" for self employment, at least when the alternatives are 37.5 hours a week of job search, daily signing and workfare.

Under those circumstances surely it's worthwhile for just about anyone to have a punt on working for themselves instead. At least it gives a non-zero chance of benefiting from their own labour.



Awesome Wells said:


> I have no link. But I remember a CAB spokesman discussing this on the radio: if you declare yourself as self employed and claim tax credits to top your income up, you can be asked to repay what you've declared if your business doesn't earn enough. The point was that JC's were selling people the idea of self employment without explaining the risks or pitfalls and that people can't just expect to be 'self employed' and claim tax credits to live on.


Having recently become self employed I've spent a fair bit of time looking in to this. Very few businesses break even in the first year, and they (supposedly) compare like for like when deciding if you might be blagging. Of course it's not ideal, but in comparison to the balls out abuse that people get on other benefits tis nothing much at all.

I've no love for people who really can't manage self employment for whatever reason being pushed into it but a large portion of people are literate and numerate enough to keep basic records, and many parts of the country still have zero employment available.

My understanding is that TCs are worked out by previous tax year for self employed people, so having been out of work for most of the tax year I can earn a fair bit per month until April before I'm likely to get stung (chance would be a fine thing).


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 19, 2013)

I'm not expert enough to know exactly what happens with tax credits and self employed status, as I've not tried it.

Ultimately, telling lies about these things usually gets found out, and lands you in the shit, so I'd not advocate it.

Another strand is that this may all change under universal credit if and when it goes fully live - the suggestion being that anyone getting 'in work' benefits will have to 'actively seek' more / better paid work.  I don't know if that particular idea has been buried yet...


----------



## Jackobi (Dec 19, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Another strand is that this may all change under universal credit if and when it goes fully live - the suggestion being that anyone getting 'in work' benefits will have to 'actively seek' more / better paid work.  I don't know if that particular idea has been buried yet...



It is one of the major reforms of UC and still applies. Generally, anyone claiming benefits who is not earning the equivalent of 35 hours a week at minimum wage will be subject to UC conditionality, i.e. attending work focused interviews and providing proof of job seeking activity, under threat of sanction. There is also a presumption that self-employed claimants are earning the equivalent of 35 hours at minimum wage, benefit entitlement will be based on those earnings whether realistic or not.


----------



## stuff_it (Dec 19, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> It is one of the major reforms of UC and still applies. Generally, anyone claiming benefits who is not earning the equivalent of 35 hours a week at minimum wage will be subject to UC conditionality, i.e. attending work focused interviews and providing proof of job seeking activity, under threat of sanction. There is also a presumption that self-employed claimants are earning the equivalent of 35 hours at minimum wage, benefit entitlement will be based on those earnings whether realistic or not.


Again I spent a lot of time looking in to this recently for obvious reasons. Cunts as they are there will still be a 12 month period where they class you as a "new" business and the min wage rule won't apply. I seem to remember something about people only being allowed a "start up period" every five years though.

Not great but again nothing like as harsh as JSA and ESA claimants are likely to face under UC. My main worry with UC is that by including HB there won't be much scope for people to just sign off and scrape by on HB and sub-min-wage-but-more-than-dole amounts of money.

They're already struggling with sorting out UC for JSA claimants though, these two links give the impression that it will be several years before TCs are affected by UC even in areas that already have it. 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxcredits/universal-credit.htm#2

https://www.gov.uk/government/polic...supporting-pages/introducing-universal-credit


----------



## 8115 (Dec 19, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Have you noticed how often they now elide actual "job creation" stats when releasing the "jobless" figures nowadays?
> Like you say, wouldn't do for people to add 2 and 2 together and realise that the lower figures are down to sanctioning and training regimes, not to the vibrancy of the job market in a growth economy (ha fucking ha!).


The Guardian (I think) said jobless figures are now nearing the point where the bank of England will start to allow a rise in interest rates.  Someone more clued up on economics than me might be able to see a reason why the ConDems would like a rise in interest rates, while many other people will struggle.  Or am I just seeing conspiracy where only cock-up exists?


----------



## BigTom (Dec 19, 2013)

afaik the issue with tax credits would be if HMRC decide that you aren't earning enough to ahve been working 30hours/week (or whatever it is if you ahve kids), and that you were claiming wrongly/fraudulently so you have to pay it back.
At the start fo the year you give them an estimation of how much you are going to earn and your tax credit levels are based on that, if you end up earning more than that then you have to pay back, if you earn less you might get more money (assuming you weren't already getting paid the maximum).

I think that if someone has no idea for a business or anything to try then moving across to WTC isn't a good move, lower levels of payments and risk of getting caught and having to pay back, but if you have somethnig you want to try or something that might give you a day or two per week it's worth doing as you'll earn the difference between WTC and JSA without the hassle of the JCP - the rest of the hours you need to make some attempt to show that you are using them around the business - admin is easy, sales stuff too - finding/contacting potential clients etc. I used to spend a few hours each week making stock video footage so if HMRC ever came knocking I could point to those and claim I spent 15-30 hrs/wk making footage for that just it rarely sold so I didn't make much money off it, knowing they wouldn't have a clue how long it took me to make each clip.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 19, 2013)

8115 said:


> Someone more clued up on economics than me might be able to see a reason why the ConDems would like a rise in interest rates, while many other people will struggle.



Current low interest rates mean that people with savings and no mortgage are, in effect, seeing their savings diminish in real terms.  High representation of pensioners in that category, pensioners statistically more likely to vote than the general population.

Having said that, can't help thinking an increase in interest rates may burst the housing bubble as the mortgages of the "hard working families / squeezed middle" (many floating voters) will go up.  And the "help to buy" scheme makes it fairly clear that they don't want the bubble to burst before 2015 at least...

Not sufficiently clued up to know whether higher interest rates would be good / bad for the very rich.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 19, 2013)

8115 said:


> The Guardian (I think) said jobless figures are now nearing the point where the bank of England will start to allow a rise in interest rates.  Someone more clued up on economics than me might be able to see a reason why the ConDems would like a rise in interest rates, while many other people will struggle.  Or am I just seeing conspiracy where only cock-up exists?



A (slight) rise in interest rates *might* put a curb on *some* imports, but apart from that I can't see how it'd be of much benefit to the economy - a rise in the base rate, followed by rises in the lending rates, would bring Osborne's property bubble some pretty rapid burstage.


----------



## BigTom (Dec 19, 2013)

(I don't agree/am not convinced by this line of argument)
Higher interest rates mean more incentive to lend money. Apparently there's an issue of nobody being willing to lend money so increasing interest rates will help this, meaning people who want to borrow to invest can, leading to increased investment, then growth and jobs.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 19, 2013)

Iain Duncan Smith paid a visit to the county a week or two ago: here's a picture of the chinless fuck mugging it up for the cameras alongside some equally chinless fucks:






LOOK AT THAT CUNT! The one to his left is Stephen Crabb, Tory cunt for north of the county. The rest are just assorted cunts who run a work programme scheme out of the local college. (report here: http://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/n...ts_Pembrokeshire__39_s_Work_Programme/?ref=mr)

Anyway, the mother of the chap who runs our choir is a bit of a diehard Tory, and I happened to hear that IDS had gone and spoken at their Conservative association. I lightly suggested that it was a shame she hadn't told me he was coming, as I could have asked her to spit in his eye for me. I shouldn't have been surprised, but perhaps I spend too much time around caring leftie types, because she started going on about how nice he was, and what a lot of sense he talked, etc., blah, and I could feel my ire rising. In the end, after lots of "but he's got to do what he's doing to sort out the country" nonsense, I thought of audiotech and said to her "some of my friends have killed themselves, Mary, because of what that man is doing". That brought her up a little shorter than I'd have liked, but it was a palpable hit.

Now, I feel like a tool for even broaching the subject with her - it should have been obvious to me that it would have been pointless. But maybe I've made her think, no matter how briefly, about the human cost of her party's ideology.

But it's made me think. I am not really particularly political. I've never supported - and don't support - a political party.

But I have realised that I *hate* the Tories, I *hate* this government, and I *hate* Iain Duncan Smith more than I have ever hated anything in my life. It's the kind of all-consuming mouth-twisting stroke-inducing hate that destroys lives and fills people with acid. I can honestly say that, if I saw Iain Duncan Smith (or, quite possibly, any of his Cabinet) about to meet an excruciating and sticky end, I cannot say in all conscience that I would do anything to stop that happening. And I struggle not to hate anyone who is prepared to excuse what they are doing to so many people. It makes me hate my country, too, for being fuckwitted enough to elect such a rapacious bunch of cunts into office. And maybe I also hate myself a bit for not actually DOING ANYTHING to stop it happening, although I do what I can with clients, friends, etc., to mitigate some of the harm that is done. But most of all, I hate Tories.

So I got something out of it, anyway.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 20, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Iain Duncan Smith paid a visit to the county a week or two ago: here's a picture of the chinless fuck mugging it up for the cameras alongside some equally chinless fucks:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In which case it *made good sense* to mention it.  If she looked behind the curtain for even a minute, then it was worth doing.  It makes it harder for people like that to kid themselves if we actually rub their faces in reality.



> But it's made me think. I am not really particularly political. I've never supported - and don't support - a political party.
> 
> But I have realised that I *hate* the Tories, I *hate* this government, and I *hate* Iain Duncan Smith more than I have ever hated anything in my life. It's the kind of all-consuming mouth-twisting stroke-inducing hate that destroys lives and fills people with acid. I can honestly say that, if I saw Iain Duncan Smith (or, quite possibly, any of his Cabinet) about to meet an excruciating and sticky end, I cannot say in all conscience that I would do anything to stop that happening. And I struggle not to hate anyone who is prepared to excuse what they are doing to so many people. It makes me hate my country, too, for being fuckwitted enough to elect such a rapacious bunch of cunts into office. And maybe I also hate myself a bit for not actually DOING ANYTHING to stop it happening, although I do what I can with clients, friends, etc., to mitigate some of the harm that is done. But most of all, I hate Tories.
> 
> So I got something out of it, anyway.



As I've said for a long old time, what's the point of supporting a political party when the _modus operandi_ is "same shit, different arseholes"? Sure, "Red Ed" would do a few things differently, and wouldn't put the boot in so baldly, but at the end of the day the shit that would rain down on most peoples' heads would still smell exactly the same.

And I'd say that you *are* political.  What you're not is "party political", and as far as I'm concerned, the fewer who are, the better!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 20, 2013)

"secretary of state visits pembrokeshire's work programme"

is a strange quote compared to provision where i live, which is a small area, and what i suspect the provision is there. Here there are two providers: JHP and Rehab Jobfit (assuming they have't changed). these are the prime providers and claimants get no say in who they are sent to. I was assigned to Jobfit who have subcontracted to Salvation Army Employment Plus who operate out of a small town centre church hall and have simultaneously bullied me and moaned they get no resources (more fool them I say).

So there are likely to be multiple providers in Pembrokeshire. equally to say, of the group mentioned, thy are the area's 'leading' provider is pure bias. There shouldn't be a leading provider unless the DWP are favouring one provider over the other and that isn't meant to happen. FWIW.


----------



## treelover (Dec 25, 2013)

> *on the frontline of Britain's homelessness crisis*
> Advisers at the homeless charity Shelter are taking 500 calls a day from distraught people
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/...is-shelter-charity-helpline#start-of-comments



Article about Shelter at Christmas, 500 calls a day

weird how the media doesn't seem to be covering homelessness and /or the Crisis shelters, they usually cover it quite well.


----------



## treelover (Dec 25, 2013)

> we hear from a lot of single mothers who have got into financial difficulties and are being evicted for rent arrears. Sometimes people don't realise the seriousness of the situation they are in, they think there must be some safety net, and sometimes there just isn't any," she says. "The calls are often very harrowing."



Hope Smith is enjoying his dinner in his mansion...


----------



## Greebo (Dec 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> Hope Smith is enjoying his dinner in his mansion...


May he get acid reflux from every crumb of it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> Hope Smith is enjoying his dinner in his mansion...



His father-in-law's mansion, that he pays no rent for.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 25, 2013)

Greebo said:


> May he get acid reflux from every crumb of it.



May he swallow a bone that cracks in his stomach, sending razor-sharp shards into his stomach and intestine.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> May he swallow a bone that cracks in his stomach, sending razor-sharp shards into his stomach and intestine.


And oblige the finest of our NHS to save his life?  I hope not.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> Hope Smith is enjoying his dinner in his mansion...


Perhaps McVey will enjoy it for him, so he can fuck off and wank over the queen's speech.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 25, 2013)

Greebo said:


> And oblige the finest of our NHS to save his life?  I hope not.


You think he goes to hospitals like the rest of us plebs?


----------



## Greebo (Dec 25, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> You think he goes to hospitals like the rest of us plebs?


Private hospitals never do emergency treatment.  At least, not in the UK.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 25, 2013)

Greebo said:


> And oblige the finest of our NHS to save his life?  I hope not.



I was hoping that Dunked-in Shit or his missus would insist he was taken to a private facility, and that by the time they got emergency staff there, and he got treated, advanced septicaemia would have set in.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 26, 2013)

Apropos of nothing, there were 15 pages of jobs (i use the word advisedly) on Universal JObmatch yesterday. That's 15 pages of adverts uploaded, supposedly, that day. 

And we know that the DWP don't let claimants off just because it's Christmas. IDS knows if you've been naughty or nice!


----------



## Greebo (Dec 26, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Apropos of nothing, there were 15 pages of jobs (i use the word advisedly) on Universal JObmatch yesterday. That's 15 pages of adverts uploaded, supposedly, that day.<snip>


Thanks for the warning, although I'm one of the lucky ones who don't have to show any signs of looking for work.


----------



## BigTom (Dec 26, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Apropos of nothing, there were 15 pages of jobs (i use the word advisedly) on Universal JObmatch yesterday. That's 15 pages of adverts uploaded, supposedly, that day.
> 
> And we know that the DWP don't let claimants off just because it's Christmas. IDS knows if you've been naughty or nice!



 I find it hard to believe anyone had actually advertised a new job on Christmas day. (Edit: not doubting you just wondering how they've appeared, automated bots? Dwp conspiracy to make ujm look busy?)
But yeah, raverdrew got a three year sanction for not doing job search between Christmas and New year so do it or lie cos they are utter scum.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 26, 2013)

It is hard to believe. I have no idea how it really works behind the scenes. It could well be that these were jobs advertised the day before and the software somehow automatically changes the date every day so as to make it look like they are uploaded that day. I didn't look at all the jobs, I was only doing it because i was curious to see how it worked on that particular day. I know one job was already closed (on the 19th).


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 26, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/26/funding-residential-training-disabled-people-jeopardy

Funding for residential training for disabled people in jeopardy

Colleges that provide specialist residential training for disabled people to help them find work fear closure in 2014 after the government failed to guarantee their continued funding.

The future of the nine charity-run colleges hangs in doubt after they received only a passing mention in a disability and health employment strategy published by ministers earlier this month.

The colleges' contracts with the Department for Work and Pensions, worth a total £18m, expire in August 2014. Those that offer longer training courses say they will have to stop taking students from January.

Jonathan Powell, chief executive of Queen Elizabeth's Foundation for Disabled People, which runs residential training in Leatherhead, Surrey, said: "The fear is that we are going to see disabled people with complex needs in effect thrown on the scrapheap because they are judged too difficult to help."


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 26, 2013)

I thought IDS wanted to send people to these places.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 26, 2013)

Looks like the DWP budget doesn't quite cover his ideological plans.


----------



## BigTom (Dec 26, 2013)

I doubt that'll stop him


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 26, 2013)

I don't think anything is going to stop him. Not common sense, not public opinion, not evidence, not fact, not reason. Unless something happens to intervene this blundering thundercunt will persist along with his chums Lord Fraud, Steve Webb, McVile and the rest of the scum.


----------



## BigTom (Dec 26, 2013)

I can think of many blunt objects that could stop him


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 26, 2013)

We may need them.

Unless 2014 is the year the tories finally go too far.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 28, 2013)

IDS has had a piece in the mail recently, apparently championing his 'jobsearch centre' idea. This is going to help 6,000 people apparently. Surely it's no different than the Work Programme then (and it's aimed at those the programme has failed, though he will see it the other way round of course), and as such must be an admission of its failure?

From Watchinga4e.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 5, 2014)

38 degrees have a petition:

LETTER TO THE ICC AT THE HAGUE RE MISTREATMENT OF THE DISABLED AND SICK



> We are aware that Mr Samuel Miller has written to you to ask if it possible to file an ICC complaint against several British Ministers—namely, Iain Duncan Smith, Chris Grayling, and Maria Miller for their role in the draconian welfare reforms and the resultant deaths of our society’s most vulnerable.
> 
> We, the undersigned, are adding our voices to Mr Miller's request for answers to the following questions:
> 
> ...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 5, 2014)

teqniq said:


> 38 degrees have a petition:
> 
> LETTER TO THE ICC AT THE HAGUE RE MISTREATMENT OF THE DISABLED AND SICK



duly signed - think this is possibly over the top, but worth a go

is there still a death penalty for 'crimes against humanity'?  I don't support the death penalty but...


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 5, 2014)

Signed.

My (tory) MP thought he was letting me in on a secret when he wrote to me to point out that 38degrees was not what he consided objective as they campaign against the government's disgusting cuts etc.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 6, 2014)

Osbournes pledged a further 25 bn in cuts for this year and sounded very sympathetic to the wheeze of cutting under 25's HB completely. Madness.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Osbournes pledged a further 25 bn in cuts for this year and sounded very sympathetic to the wheeze of cutting under 25's HB completely. Madness.



This, the day after Cameron goes on TV to reassure the pensioners that come what may, they won't be affected.  He's done his electoral calculus on this one: Shit on the ones least likely to vote, and butter up the ones who're most likely.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Osbournes pledged a further 25 bn in cuts for this year and sounded very sympathetic to the wheeze of cutting under 25's HB completely. Madness.


It is, but it isn't really news though; we knew he wanted to further cut welfare and that cutting HB for under 25's was on the table.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 6, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Osbournes pledged a further 25 bn in cuts for this year and sounded very sympathetic to the wheeze of cutting under 25's HB completely. Madness.


 Courtesy of Mr Bone...


----------



## treelover (Jan 6, 2014)

Yet another benefits programme on TV: ch4, 9pm(and repeated on plus one) Monday, 'benefits street'


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 6, 2014)

Oh jesus. Oh imaginary father in the clouds. Save us from this shit.

How many more programmes? The last one I could stomach was that godawful 'nick n margaret' travesty. 

let me guess: it's set on the street that has the most benefit claimants in the country, and the all have satellite dishes and 200 children.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 7, 2014)

treelover said:


> Yet another benefits programme on TV: ch4, 9pm(and repeated on plus one) Monday, 'benefits street'





Awesome Wells said:


> Oh jesus. Oh imaginary father in the clouds. Save us from this shit.
> 
> How many more programmes? The last one I could stomach was that godawful 'nick n margaret' travesty.
> 
> let me guess: it's set on the street that has the most benefit claimants in the country, and the all have satellite dishes and 200 children.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 7, 2014)

I'm glad I woke up this morning and read that.

This society makes me sick: "hope they all die in a fire"? 

I have no words left.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 7, 2014)

stuff_it said:


> View attachment 46155



If they were talking about a religious or ethnic minority then they'd be getting their doors knocked in this morning.


----------



## treelover (Jan 7, 2014)

report them?


----------



## treelover (Jan 7, 2014)

Just rang ch 4 complaints, noting the tweets, I said that the old ch4 would not have broadcast this programme and that film makers have a responsibility to the people they film.


----------



## treelover (Jan 7, 2014)

The thing is do these post modern film makers have any empathy, any compassion? on a series like this they must have spent many many hours with the participants, only to shaft them with this sensationalist rubbish.

update, just spoke to sympathetic national media, the police are investigating, this could be a turning point, distribute, inform, ring the media, we won't tolerate this.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Jan 7, 2014)




----------



## treelover (Jan 7, 2014)

why not ring the production company as well


----------



## treelover (Jan 7, 2014)

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/...al-investigation-after-benefits-street-aired/



> Like many people across the country, we saw the footage broadcast on the programme for the first time last night. Throughout the programme and in the hours that have followed, we have been inundated with comments from members of the public, many of whom are concerned about elements of show which showed criminal activity.





This is about prosecuting the people in the film, not the tweeters who poured out the vile abuse.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Jan 7, 2014)

I fucking hate this country. What a fucking shit hole - full of egotistical righteous fuckers who dont give a shit about others. Someone on Twitter just said to me:



> I don't care for the poor, each man for them selves


----------



## treelover (Jan 7, 2014)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/benefits-street-channel-4-documentary-2994242



> James Turner Street resident Dee Roberts, a qualified mentor and support worker, appears heavily in the series.
> She told the Birmingham Mail: “They said they wanted to film for a TV show about how great community spirit is in the street and how we all help each other out on a daily basis.
> ‘‘They said that ‘Britain was broken’ but that I lived in an area where the community was very close. I participated in the show on that belief.
> “But this programme has nothing to do with community, which you can tell from the title. It’s all about people in the street living off benefits, taking drugs and dossing around all day. It makes people out as complete scum.
> ...





Report about how many of participants of the 'documentary' feel they have been manipulated, they thought it would be about celebrating 'community and togetherness'


----------



## Greebo (Jan 7, 2014)

Barking_Mad said:


> I fucking hate this country. What a fucking shit hole - full of egotistical righteous fuckers who dont give a shit about others. Someone on Twitter just said to me:


IME for every person who goes around with their elbows out, there are ten more who don't.  All we need to do is take this place back from the bad minority, and you can't do that by leaving.


----------



## treelover (Jan 7, 2014)

'Love Productions' made the programme

They also make the 'Great British Bake Off'

time for the BBC to think about their connection?

just read the show had four million viewers, ffs...


----------



## treelover (Jan 7, 2014)

> Paul i lived there for 3 years, i work constantly may i add! these people are not actors! I was asked to appear in the programme about community spirit, i refused as i know what channel 4 are capable of and also because i really just lived there and went out to work and didnt mix with people but i assure you these people are are real! but channel 4 have taken a few of the people who live there and portrayed them as they wanted to! taking just a few of the people off the street and making it look like everyone on the street is the same! they arnt! a lot of people who live there are decent law abiding working citizens but i suppose if the most of the people who want to be filmed by them are like that then they only have that footage to show!!! so glad i told them to sling their hook when i lived there i didnt want to be part of it! they made it look like everyone who lives there are tramps!
> 
> Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/benefits-street-channel-4-documentary-2994242#ixzz2piZkv7S3
> Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook



Mirror comment from a former resident, who has Ch4 sussed.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 7, 2014)

How about getting some of these 'die in a fire' morons banned from twitter.

That sort of shit cannot be allowed under T's & C's surely? Even on Twatty Twitter.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 7, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> How about getting some of these 'die in a fire' morons banned from twitter.


 
When I first saw the quote I was in broad agreement, though I thought she was talking about the Cabinet.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 7, 2014)

typing to twitter about how people on benefits should die from your hundred pound plus smartphone ranks up there with kissinger getting the nobel peace prize.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 7, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> typing to twitter about how people on benefits should die from your hundred pound plus smartphone ranks up there with kissinger getting the nobel peace prize.


looking for the user @jodieantell produces an 'internal server error'.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Jan 7, 2014)

Own Jones chimes in:



> Where's the TV show about low-paid workers struggling on in-work benefits or unemployed people desperate for work?
> 
> Where's the TV show about low paying bosses and private landlords scrounging off the welfare state with low pay and rent subsidies?
> 
> ...


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 7, 2014)

Broadcast on the same day Osborne declares a further £25bn cut from Welfare (all but) as well. Coincedence?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 7, 2014)

stuff_it said:


> View attachment 46155



I hope all the above no-redeeming-features arseholes never know another day of happiness for the rest of their lives. Which is a bit of a wankerish thing to say. But fuck them - They're not people.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2014)

Barking_Mad said:


> I fucking hate this country. What a fucking shit hole - full of egotistical righteous fuckers who dont give a shit about others. Someone on Twitter just said to me:



Would they still be saying that if they needed a doctor?
I doubt it.


----------



## StoneRoad (Jan 7, 2014)

Someone remind me how much the tax-dodging companies and individuals are avoiding paying into the tax coffers ?
Does it compare towards anything like the £12bn Gideonthecunt wants to cut off the welfare budget????

Perhaps if HMRC got out their cosy bed with Vodafone, Arcadia and made 'em pay their due taxes there would not be quite so large a hole in the government's funds............


----------



## weepiper (Jan 7, 2014)

StoneRoad said:


> Someone remind me how much the tax-dodging companies and individuals are avoiding paying into the tax coffers ?
> Does it compare towards anything like the £12bn Gideonthecunt wants to cut off the welfare budget????
> 
> Perhaps if HMRC got out their cosy bed with Vodafone, Arcadia and made 'em pay their due taxes there would not be quite so large a hole in the government's funds............


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 7, 2014)

Barking_Mad said:


> I fucking hate this country. What a fucking shit hole - full of egotistical righteous fuckers who dont give a shit about others. Someone on Twitter just said to me:


Job done: a divided fragmented and fightened society. 

All the better to rule.

Disgusting.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 8, 2014)

There's a rumour that Lord Freud may have links to Love Productions, just trying to chase that up with some proof.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 8, 2014)

stuff_it said:


> There's a rumour that Lord Freud may have links to Love Productions, just trying to chase that up with some proof.



The tenuous link mentioned on twitter led to this for me.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2007/08_august/01/pramface.shtml

The links to Freud and the DWP stemming from the 'Notes to editors' at the bottom.




> *Press Releases*
> *BBC Three asks single mums to move into the Pramface Mansion*
> 
> Category: Factual & Arts TV; BBC Three
> ...



Edited to add I also looked at the times James Purnell, Labour ex minister for welfare, was working at the BBC during these years.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 8, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> The tenuous link mentioned on twitter led to this for me.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2007/08_august/01/pramface.shtml
> 
> ...


Hmm, I was wondering if perhaps there was a link from his wife's investments. I understand she has quite a lot.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 8, 2014)

'Pramface Mansion'?

FFS. What's next, 'House of Slags'? 'Lagerface Betting Shop'?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 8, 2014)

stuff_it said:


> Hmm, I was wondering if perhaps there was a link from his wife's investments. I understand she has quite a lot.


That wouldn't surprise me. The fuckers have fingers in so many pies through their families/relations that they never need to disclose.


----------



## treelover (Jan 8, 2014)

> Media regulator Ofcom said it had received nearly 300 complaints about the show by Wednesday morning, relating to unfair, misleading and offensive portrayals of benefits claimants, alleged criminal activity and excessive bad language. Channel 4 said it has received nearly 400 separate complaints about the show late on Wednesday.
> http://www.theguardian.com/media/20...on-series-axed-channel-4?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487



hopefully including many urbanites, ch4 won't care though, 4 million viewers...


----------



## treelover (Jan 8, 2014)

> http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/



interesting review/discussion about 'benefit street' by Sue Marsh


----------



## BigTom (Jan 9, 2014)

Birmingham Claimants' Union advice leaflet on how to challenge JSA sanctions:

http://www.advice-birmingham.net/How-to-challenge-your-benefit-sanction.pdf


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 9, 2014)

*Bedroom tax loophole could exempt 40,000 wrongly identified as liable*
Housing benefit experts condemn 'shambles' as it emerges that DWP oversight could mean some actually profit from blunder

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/09/bedroom-tax-loophole-exempt-liable-housing-benefit


----------



## treelover (Jan 9, 2014)

Newsnight has just had a debate on the programme: Owen Jones, the Documentary Producer I think Ralph Lee and a right wing guy from the Spectator. The producer/ch4 guy did not look very comfortable.


Btw, it was great to see Newsnight back to its old self: balanced and often defending the vunerable, strange that the last two years the producer was from the far left.


----------



## treelover (Jan 9, 2014)

> *Ralph Lee, specialist factual, Channel 4*
> 13 May, 2010 | By Robin Parker
> C4’s head of specialist factual doesn’t want to fall into the trap of making great programmes that get lost in the schedules. Commissions must make an impact, he tells Robin Parker.





> http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/channel-4-appoints-ralph-lee-to-new-head-of-factual-role




Ah, he is head of 'specialist factual' programming

, this is what he promotes


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 10, 2014)

Paul T said:


> *Bedroom tax loophole could exempt 40,000 wrongly identified as liable*
> Housing benefit experts condemn 'shambles' as it emerges that DWP oversight could mean some actually profit from blunder
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/09/bedroom-tax-loophole-exempt-liable-housing-benefit


Even a cat would envy IDS. How he manages to avoid political death is extraordinary.

The DWP concede this mistake as they claim 5000 are affected. So he fucked up; again. The question is by how much.

Unbelievable.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 10, 2014)

They are discussing it now on Radio 5.

They being Nicky Campbell (hmmmn) and the usual gaggle of curtain twitchers.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 10, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Even a cat would envy IDS. How he manages to avoid political death is extraordinary.
> 
> The DWP concede this mistake as they claim 5000 are affected. So he fucked up; again. The question is by how much.
> 
> Unbelievable.


Trouble is, people who have already had to move, or been evicted, will have no comeback whatsoever. This mistake has human costs, let alone the financial implications.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 10, 2014)

Paul T said:


> Trouble is, people who have already had to move, or been evicted, will have no comeback whatsoever. This mistake has human costs, let alone the financial implications.


Compensation?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 10, 2014)

The postman just delivered a response from my MP regarding the conduct of his fellow tories during the foodbank bunfight. I am digesting it now, but highlights include his claiming that families will be better off under UC to the tune of £168 a month. In response to my pointing out the quality of that debate he quoted a link to Guido Fawkes' site (with pictures of labour MP's claimed to be laughin as well).

More later.

I find it rather tedious that he should think referencing that site is credible. The first comment under that article (it is to journalism what a child's anus is to a nappy) is something about a femal labour MP being sexually propositioned. Says it all really.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 10, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Compensation?


They might be able to claim Financial redress for maladministration perhaps, although not 100% sure this would cover such decisions (they're made by local authorities, on basis of DWP guidance).


----------



## treelover (Jan 10, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/10/benefits-street-documentary-reality

CH4 head of documentary defends Benefit St, which now has had 7 million views, which will certainly impact on Govt policy on welfare, etc, once we had Cathy Come Home, now we have this crap.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 10, 2014)

> "Pramface" is a stereotype which the series aims to subvert. Pramface Mansion seeks to challenge pre-conceptions about single parent families as well as explode some of the myths about the supposed ideal of the nuclear family.



on that channel so well known for thoughtful and assumption-challenging programs, BBC3


I don't think even the person writing the PR believes the above line.


----------



## treelover (Jan 10, 2014)

Imo, on benefit issues, etc, the media is now acting very similar to how the media operated in the old eastern bloc to malign and ostracise those it thought deleterious to its programme, misfits, the work shy, etc.

btw, I have no problem in having shows/docs which highlight the problematic side of benefit regimes, its that, that is all we see on TV, they identify the extremes and then present it as the norm.


power without responsibility indeed.


----------



## treelover (Jan 10, 2014)

Btw, I can't explain how angry I am about this programme:, once we had Cathy Come Home, now we have this, one can imagine its going to be hell for the children from the street at school, etc applying for jobs, apparently its is also now on the tourist trails.

http://www.sodiumhaze.org/

article here with links to how you can do something about it


----------



## treelover (Jan 10, 2014)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mszhESGvE_c


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 10, 2014)

Fucking Satans! Alec Shellbrooke, the welfare cash card wannabe, was back on the radio (BBC - again) this morning! He's here arguing about how the benefit cap has compelled people into work. This we know is fatuous arse candy, but he seems to be implying that people can now keep more of their earnings - but that's a claim IDS makes on behalf of UC and UC isn't running yet.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 10, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> on that channel so well known for thoughtful and assumption-challenging programs, BBC3
> 
> 
> I don't think even the person writing the PR believes the above line.


It's the standard line for exploitation TV these days.

"Channel 4 brings a thoughtful and stereotype-challenging look into the day-to-day workings of a residential mental health facility specialising in overweight patients with its new series _Fat Nutter Bootcamp_."

"The director of programming for Sky 5 defended _Whore Palace_ from claims of exploitation, saying that it was a sensitive look at the lives of a group of cohabiting sex workers in modern Britain, designed to broaden the public's perception of the social issues involved."


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 10, 2014)

treelover said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mszhESGvE_c


Oh ffs - Fraser fucking Nelson - yet another rentagob on the BBC rightwing speddial.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 10, 2014)

My MP says he wasn't one of those laughing during the foodbank dbeate. I don't know whether or not that's true. He says that Parliament gets like that sometimes, particular during PMQ's, before going on to smear labour via the Guido link. I find it curious that he's included a link, it just looks odd on the page (printed out including highlighted hyperlink text, straight outta the word processor). I wonder if Tory HQ have ordered that link be used in reply to anyone enquiring about this. Perhaps that's the whole point of Shit Staines posting it in the first place. 

He comments that the picture provided by the Trussell Trust and others paints a complex picture mentioning benefits errors and delays (and saying UC would help with this - can I please LOL?), and the fact that _'the current Government has removed all restrictions on advertising for them (the previous Government banned this, probably because they were more worried about embarassment than hunger, but this has now been reversed)'_. He also mentions the role rising food prices have played. 
_
'The result is that there's little or nor corelation betwen increasing use of food banks and poverty _(huh?)_; in fact use of food banks increased ten times during the previous Labour administration, including when the economy was booming.'_

I don't know if that's true and I don't support Labour. This is a man that has been to the local foodbank and is trying to balance what he must be seeing with the line his party toes and its ideology.

He then makes the point about UC making people better off I mentioned earlier.

His final point is to resort to the 'welfare dependency' trope, which I both deny and abhor. Everyone is dependent in this system. Unless you're one of the lucky rich you need an income. I'm sure the average Tory would start wailing if theirs was taken or cut (they pressed for a higher pay rise than the 11% on the table). He talks of the underlying causes of want which sounds like victim blaming: the poor want too much or the wrong things. It's their fault they are in poverty or are hungry: they spend their money on booze scratchcards texting and playstations. He claims 1.2 million jobs have been created since May 2010 and there are fewere than a quarter million households in which noone has ever worked.

None of which gets to the heart of the crisis caused by austerity, tory ideology and the hypocrisy of the financial class that runs the western world and, in Britain, goes into bed with the landed gentry we still haven't gotten rid of.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 11, 2014)

George Osborne can always take some consolation from his being a never-ending source of inspiration for creative swearing and insults:

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2014/01/08/15-tweets-to-george-osborne-that-will-cheer-you-up-nsfw/


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 11, 2014)

"hope you die in a bin fire you shape shifting horse fucker" might even beat "shit gibbon".


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 11, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> <snip>His final point is to resort to the 'welfare dependency' trope, which I both deny and abhor. Everyone is dependent in this system. <snip>



Very much so - It's not as if most people who work grow/hunt all their food and generate their own electric and that. Whatever the source of the payment, everyone depends on payday rolling around every week/fortnight/month.


----------



## captainmission (Jan 11, 2014)

DWP declare a claimant contributed to her cancer


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 11, 2014)

Is that actionable?


----------



## existentialist (Jan 11, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Is that actionable?


I get the impression nothing's actionable where the DWP are concerned. If they break the law, they just get the law changed - sometimes, retrospectively - so that they never did anything wrong.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 11, 2014)

existentialist said:


> I get the impression nothing's actionable where the DWP are concerned. If they break the law, they just get the law changed - sometimes, retrospectively - so that they never did anything wrong.



Surely ATOS, if they are behind this nonsense, can be held accountable for claiming the claimant caused themselves to get cancer.

And even if that were, somehow, true - so what? Is this really the road we are to take? If someone has cancer and they can't work then surely that is the only relevant fact. How they got that condition is irrelevant. I don't understand how this is even part of the WCA.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 11, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Surely ATOS, if they are behind this nonsense, can be held accountable for claiming the claimant caused themselves to get cancer.
> 
> And even if that were, somehow, true - so what? Is this really the road we are to take? If someone has cancer and they can't work then surely that is the only relevant fact. How they got that condition is irrelevant. I don't understand how this is even part of the WCA.


It isn't the road we have to take, no. But if half your government are in the pockets of a bent disability insurance provider, with a track record on wriggling to the point of illegality to evade paying claims, then it is a pretty natural path for them to follow.

Expect worse.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 13, 2014)

HULK SMASH!

FFS! Just fuck off IDS!

Seriously this is getting beyond a bloody joke now.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 13, 2014)

existentialist said:


> It isn't the road we have to take, no. But if half your government are in the pockets of a bent disability insurance provider, with a track record on wriggling to the point of illegality to evade paying claims, then it is a pretty natural path for them to follow.
> 
> Expect worse.


Indeed. 

But this is in print: someone has said on a document of some legality that the person has given themselves bone cancer. This must create an opportunity to respond.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Indeed.
> 
> But this is in print: someone has said on a document of some legality that the person has given themselves bone cancer. This must create an opportunity to respond.


Don't for a minute think that I don't wish that they could be strung up for this. But accountability is never any government department's strong suit, and my guess is that, even if the person could find a lawyer and a point of law on which to base an action, the DWP would make sure to stonewall it to the nth degree, and expensively protract any legal hearing, just to make sure that no precedent got set.

I would love to see a pro bono lawyer take it on and push it all the way through, just like the Poundland case, but even if they did, I fear that we'd be sitting here in two years looking at - at best - an equivocal judgement that the DWP/IDS would sneeringly write off as some kind of victory against the work-shy dolescum proles.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 13, 2014)

From the DPAC site:


> “I just got this information from a nurse friend of mine last night…….a man who has diabetics type 2 and severe copd was brought in to hospital last night…..aged 61 his esa was stopped 8 weeks ago after being found fit 2 work….. it turns out he has been eating dried corn flakes for the last 5 weeks and has no electric on for 5 weeks….. he has had no heating or even able to boil a kettle for a hot drink…..he was not even able to use his nebulizer without electric…..the cold has got to his lungs and his blood sugars have gone dangerously low as type 2 diabetics must eat 3 times a day 2 keep blood sugars level……the nurses have chipped in to get him a bottle of squash and some fruit ….apparently this gentleman is very unwell at the moment and if the Tories and Lib- Dems find peoples hunger something to laugh at will they also find this funny? The sick will end up in hospital beds if they cant eat and stay warm……this mans situation is just a taste of what the future holds for thousands…….”



While a cunt tory heats his fucking HORSES with taxes paid in like he's the Sherriff of Nottingham, this poor sod can't even afford to run his fucking nebulizer and has wound up in hospital. How on earth can this make any sense? How much does it cost to treat people? HOw many beds are being taken up by these cases that shouldn't exist?

Meanwhile IDS sees fit to call Chris Bryant a 'pantomime dame' and blame Labour for his own inability to understand the welfare system - a department he was so desperate to take over.

Hanging's too good for this creature. There must be a reckoning. That link is one of the most heartbreaking things I have ever read.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 13, 2014)

DPAC/Black Triangle Campaign national ATOS demo, 19th Feb: http://dpac.uk.net/2014/01/atos-national-demo/


----------



## treelover (Jan 13, 2014)

Good to see they have given plenty of notice this time and  supporters can go before work, college, etc.

btw, I am going to send the above dreadful story to Newsnight, they have been a bit more balanced recently, it doesn't seem to have gone viral yet though it should.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 13, 2014)

MP's just voted by a majority of 132 in favour of an inquiry into welfare reforms and their links to poverty.

Cue another Mekon Meltdown from IDS, methinks.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 13, 2014)

Confirmation of the inquiry vote here:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/benefit-cuts-uk-mps-vote-3020200


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 13, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> MP's just voted by a majority of 132 in favour of an inquiry into welfare reforms and their links to poverty.
> 
> Cue another Mekon Meltdown from IDS, methinks.


"Mekon Meltdown"


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 13, 2014)

Paul T said:


> "Mekon Meltdown"



Separated at birth..?

Mekon:






IDS:


----------



## treelover (Jan 13, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> MP's just voted by a majority of 132 in favour of an inquiry into welfare reforms and their links to poverty.
> 
> Cue another Mekon Meltdown from IDS, methinks.



Good news, I think, but this means Lib Dumps supported it, but they have enabled all the recent legislation.


----------



## treelover (Jan 13, 2014)

> Tory MP David T.C. Davies claimed his party was united in backing the welfare cuts - and sparked fury by suggesting that the jobless are "watching television all day".
> Unemployed people should have to take the first job that becomes available to them, the Commons select committee chairman said.
> 
> 
> ...



showing their fangs now


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 14, 2014)

But they do have to take the 'first' job that becomes available. It's always been a sanctioning offence - certainly under Labour it was (after the Tories morphed unemployment benefit/income support into JSA) - to refuse any offer of a job while claiming, no matter if it's the first, second or third. 

That's if your claim survives long enough to be offered a job.


----------



## treelover (Jan 15, 2014)

Just read that Frank Skinner, a native of Birmingham, turned down the job of narrating the Benefits Street programme, good for him

btw, second episode, many are saying it sets up the 'lazy indigenous' vs industrious migrants' dichotomy (even if the Roma featured didn't have 'normal' jobs.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 16, 2014)

treelover said:


> Just read that Frank Skinner, a native of Birmingham, turned down the job of narrating the Benefits Street programme, good for him
> 
> btw, second episode, many are saying it sets up the 'lazy indigenous' vs industrious migrants' dichotomy (even if the Roma featured didn't have 'normal' jobs.


Why did he turn it down? Was it for the right reasons? 
Or is he still a wanker who sticks his finger in his ear every time he tells a joke.


----------



## treelover (Jan 16, 2014)

because he didn't want to offend fellow citizens of Birmingham


----------



## treelover (Jan 16, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/media/me...testors-love-productions?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

Unite Community Protest against Benefits Street outside Love Productions

is that guy in the window sneering?


----------



## treelover (Jan 16, 2014)

'tourists' outside the street


----------



## Jackobi (Jan 16, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> MP's just voted by a majority of 132 in favour of an inquiry into welfare reforms and their links to poverty.
> 
> Confirmation of the inquiry vote here:
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/benefit-cuts-uk-mps-vote-3020200



"*Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab):* I beg to move,

That this House believes that a commission of inquiry should be established to investigate the impact of the Government’s welfare reforms on the incidence of poverty."

http://www.publications.parliament....140113/debtext/140113-0003.htm#14011328000001


----------



## BigTom (Jan 16, 2014)

BigTom said:


> DPAC/Black Triangle Campaign national ATOS demo, 19th Feb: http://dpac.uk.net/2014/01/atos-national-demo/



Link for this isn't working anymore - this is the facebook page with all the events listed on it, will try to find a non-fb link too: https://www.facebook.com/ATOSNationalDemo


----------



## Dr Jon (Jan 18, 2014)

*The Ongoing Assault On Ordinary Working Class People In Britain*


----------



## Greebo (Jan 18, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> *The Ongoing Assault On Ordinary Working Class People In Britain*


Thanks for the link.


----------



## treelover (Jan 19, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...owance-jsa-benefit-english-maths-basic-skills


Rachel Reeves is going to announce tomorrow as part of N/L's (ongoing) welfare reform plans that all claimants will be obliged to undertake both Maths and basic English tests to receive benefits and more training courses. The infantilisation of young adults will continue as H/B is abolished and a new  'allowance' introduced.

btw, the Guardian' Journo Uber Blairite Wintour seems to relish all this


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 20, 2014)

thats a me too from the labour party wrt mandatory lit & numeracy training- the tories floated the same last nov iirc


----------



## treelover (Jan 20, 2014)

wasn't that for migrants?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 20, 2014)

treelover said:


> wasn't that for migrants?




all under 25's iirc


----------



## BigTom (Jan 20, 2014)

Maths and English tests are already pretty standard for work programme attendees afaik, even made my friend with a maths degree do a sub gcse maths test ffs.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 20, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Maths and English tests are already pretty standard for work programme attendees afaik, even made my friend with a maths degree do a sub gcse maths test ffs.


In his shoes, I'd have been so tempted to fuck the test up, just to see if they'd notice. And do it in crayon.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 20, 2014)

treelover said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/society/...owance-jsa-benefit-english-maths-basic-skills
> 
> 
> Rachel Reeves is going to announce tomorrow as part of N/L's (ongoing) welfare reform plans that all claimants will be obliged to undertake both Maths and basic English tests to receive benefits and more training courses. The infantilisation of young adults will continue as H/B is abolished and a new  'allowance' introduced.
> ...


And so Reeves' is reinforcing government propaganda that her own party fucked up education. That kids graduate only knowing how to sext and stab and are unemployable because they can't read write operate a mop or stack a shelf. What an idiot.


----------



## treelover (Jan 20, 2014)

The obsession with punitive conditionality is obscene, people would jump at genuine help perhaps offered at a multi-purpose centre,

I know lets call them community centres, but aren't they being closed down?


----------



## treelover (Jan 20, 2014)

> So, perhaps unsurprisingly, I'm not prepared to claim that it was my "hard work" that got me where I am today. I won't be Boris Johnson's atomistic cornflake that shakes off the rest to get to the top of the packet; I'm not prepared to kick the proverbial ladder from under the feet of my peers by peddling the myth that it is only the lazy who stay behind.
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...idge-benefits-cut-welfare-under-25s-education


----------



## treelover (Jan 20, 2014)

btw, read above this inspiring story of a young woman who went to Cambridge despite being kicked out at 16, and her conclusions.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 20, 2014)

treelover said:


> The obsession with punitive conditionality is obscene, people would jump at genuine help perhaps offered at a multi-purpose centre,
> 
> I know lets call them community centres, but aren't they being closed down?


Exactly. Getting some semblance of financial security, if only temporary, through winning my ESA tribunal has made all the difference. But the capitalists cannot and will not see how a carrot is better than the barbed wire wrapped club they currently use. It will become a vicious downward spiral until we descend into chaos. People always respond more to compassion honesty and support.


----------



## treelover (Jan 20, 2014)

> *Benefits Street? It's nothing like the James Turner Street we researched*
> The fieldwork we did in Birmingham produced a picture of a community very different to that portrayed in Channel 4's series
> 
> "James Turner Street? I'm sure I've heard of it," I mused, when watching the trailer for the first episode of Channel 4's Benefits Street. But it didn't look like or seem to be the same street that I was soon to recall. Within a few seconds we had statistics quoted by a narrator – "only 5% working … almost everyone on benefits" – and residents to set the scene. Images of rubbish piled high were provided backed by a collection of dysfunctional individuals paraded in front of the cameras. And then it clicked.
> I first went to James Turner Street in 2008 for my company, Vector Research. Specialising in researching what are known as "hard-to-access" groups and neighbourhoods, we had been commissioned by the city council and Urban Living, one of the government's housing pathfinder organisations seeking to improve communities in north-west Birmingham, to produce a report on the area. The project, conducted in partnership with Ark Housing Consultancy, was a neighbourhood renewal study to look at the conditions of properties and to gather a range of data from residents to identify their priorities for future intervention.




Great, Benefit Street exposed, got Love Productions bang to rights, the 'debate will be interesting, researchers who have worked in the area say it is nothing like the programme, yet policy is clearly being made on the back of that rubbish.


----------



## treelover (Jan 20, 2014)

http://labourlist.org/2014/01/rache...ach-to-social-security-taking-the-next-steps/


Reeves speech to the IPPR, her plans are worse than even the media are reporting.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 20, 2014)

FFS someone pull her or Merelybland aside and have a word with them. This is ridiculous.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 20, 2014)

i don't  think it's words that are needed unless those words are die scum! and issued shortly before doing violence unto their worthless bodies

edit: Actually, their bodies aren't worthless. Organ donation. I retract my insult.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 20, 2014)

> 1300 people on ‪#‎sickness‬ ‪#‎benefit‬ ‪#‎DEAD‬ after being told to begin work related activities immediately admits @dwppressoffice https://t.co/warnqsskJO
> 
> According to Iain Duncan Smith’s team, every year, more than 40,000 people on Sickness Benefits (eg. ‪#‎ESA‬) die. Over a three year period more than 125,000 people had died while on sickness benefit. During the lifetime of this parliament, 200,000+ will die on sickness benefit.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 20, 2014)

*Food bank issues parcels for those too poor to heat dinner*
Charity distributes products that can be prepared by adding boiling water or eaten cold in a 'sign of how bad things are'

Only time I've ever experienced this poor was during miners strikes over the years. This isn't heat or eat. This is can't heat OR eat.. !! 

Edit to say.. I doubt my JSA will get me or my key/card meters to the next giro either.


----------



## treelover (Jan 20, 2014)




----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 21, 2014)

Sooner or later IDS - yes even IDS - will have to take his thumbs out of his ears and open his eyes.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 21, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> <snip> This isn't heat or eat. This is can't heat OR eat.. !!
> 
> Edit to say.. I doubt my JSA will get me or my key/card meters to the next giro either.


That really is bad - even when my grant was late I could just about afford to use the cooker.

Benefit claims taking ages to start (and then to process) combined with near systematic dissuasion from putting in a claim in the first place are probably at the root of this.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 21, 2014)

I see Rachel 'hammer of the poor' Reeves is floating the idea of a 20 quid top up for claimants with more than five years NI

a) thats a risible amount

b) deserving/undeserving


----------



## treelover (Jan 21, 2014)

It's inevitable, this is one very consistent public demand, normal on the continent


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 21, 2014)

Greebo said:


> That really is bad - even when my grant was late I could just about afford to use the cooker.
> 
> Benefit claims taking ages to start (and then to process) combined with near systematic dissuasion from putting in a claim in the first place are probably at the root of this.



Add in the sanctions dished out for ridiculous reasons and the price increases in food and fuel. It's a disaster.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 21, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Sooner or later IDS - yes even IDS - will have to take his thumbs out of his ears and open his eyes.


Never gonna happen IMHO.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 21, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Never gonna happen IMHO.


Agreed.  But I'd love to see him completely stripped of his safety net and made to live for 5 years under the system he's brought in.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 21, 2014)

Mrs rich daddies girl would have to divorce him. The party would have to expel him. We can live in hope..


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 21, 2014)

FFS someone needs to reprogramme Rachel Reeves. This is where your policies will take us, the only difference is that the Tories get there quicker. High Speed Rail straight thorugh the twin constituencies of decency and compassion all the way to Black Heart Central.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 21, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I see Rachel 'hammer of the poor' Reeves is floating the idea of a 20 quid top up for claimants with more than five years NI
> 
> a) thats a risible amount
> 
> b) deserving/undeserving


She might as well just cross the floor. What's the point of her?

I say bombard her with messages telling her we don't want this shit.

For all the good it will do.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 21, 2014)

Fascinating Twitter feed from Debt Summit conference

Lambeth Council reckon that a third of pay day loans are taken out to pay energy bills and another contributer reckons it is more socially acceptable to get a pay day loan than be seen to be seeking debt advice

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23debtsummit&src=hash


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 22, 2014)

> *Mentally ill woman on Coalition Work Programme told to find work despite being in a COMA *



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sheila-holt-mentally-ill-woman-3048449#.Ut-Bz-JFDIU


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 22, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sheila-holt-mentally-ill-woman-3048449#.Ut-Bz-JFDIU



Well she can't expect to be able to stay in bed all day with the blinds drawn while the taxpayer foots the bill can she now?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 23, 2014)

My eyessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss, someone please put this man out of his demented misery! 



> *Iain Duncan Smith compares being on benefits to slavery and suggests he is acting in tradition of abolitionist *



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ing-in-tradition-of-abolitionist-9080982.html


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jan 23, 2014)

Just when you thought this fuckwit couldn't piss you off any more.

Jesus fucking wept!


----------



## teqniq (Jan 23, 2014)

That's some weird psychological justification going on right there.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 23, 2014)

he's lost the fucking plot.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 23, 2014)

Wh..what the jedi jesus fuck?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 23, 2014)

teqniq said:


> That's some weird psychological justification going on right there.


he's mentally ill. It's the only explanation. The man is sick in the head.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 23, 2014)

But it makes sense from the full-throttle Randian neoliberalism perspective. Any type of state support is socialism and anti-liberty and basically evil and should be abolished for the good of all.  That's the scary thing here, not that the guy is nuts but that he's talking from an entire intellectual perspective developed for and by the elite, and among his peers he'll be able to find plenty of people to agree with him.


----------



## SikhWarrioR (Jan 23, 2014)

weepiper said:


> he's lost the fucking plot.




Did iain duncan shit have a plot to lose in the first place


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 24, 2014)

Brainaddict said:


> But it makes sense from the full-throttle Randian neoliberalism perspective. Any type of state support is socialism and anti-liberty and basically evil and should be abolished for the good of all.  That's the scary thing here, not that the guy is nuts but that he's talking from an entire intellectual perspective developed for and by the elite, and among his peers he'll be able to find plenty of people to agree with him.


Apart from all the benefits he receives.

These people simply think benefits are, perversely, to be 'earned', which is their code word for 'hard working'.

Folk don't work and get paid. Instead they earn their money. People on shitty wages don't earn enough, in their vernacular, because they aren't, in the eyes of the tories, hard working enough. IDS _earns_ lots because he's hard working (obviously!) and he's a tory (and all tories are, like pink elephants, hard working), so he's _entitled_ (that word again) to a big fat house, a land subsidy, expenses, and hundreds of thousands, etc.

The whole thing is monstrously perverse. The guy is off his head.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 24, 2014)

Brainaddict said:


> But it makes sense from the full-throttle Randian neoliberalism perspective. Any type of state support is socialism and anti-liberty and basically evil and should be abolished for the good of all.


 Making sense from a Randian perspective does not make these attitudes sane though does it?



> That's the scary thing here, not that the guy is nuts but that he's talking from an entire intellectual perspective developed for and by the elite, and among his peers he'll be able to find plenty of people to agree with him.



You are right it is scary, on account of most of us being able to realise the *psychopathy* of that _'intellectual perspective developed for and by the elite' _you refer to. It's anti-human on every level IMO. The elite are also dehumanised by their participation and perpetuation of it. The fact it protects them and their double standards is their reward.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 24, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> My eyessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss, someone please put this man out of his demented misery!
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ing-in-tradition-of-abolitionist-9080982.html


Article makles 2 mistakes:

Cait Reilly and Jamie Wilson's schem was not declared unlawful, the way the DWP lied to them that it was madatory was the reason they won. I wish these schemes were outlawed, but they haven't been.

It also fails to correct the errant use of the term 'spare room subsidy', deliberately used by MP's to make the bedroom tax sound less evil. A subsidy is what you give someone, not what you take from them, and Housing Benefit has never had any such component either.


----------



## treelover (Jan 24, 2014)

> “It’s one of those programmes to get middle England ‘up in arms’," O'Grady told presenters Matt Baker and Alex Jones.
> "These people are the sacrificial lambs on the altar of light entertainment and they have gone willingly: a smart tongue has got them to say all sorts and it is a very unfair representation of unemployment in this country.
> "A lot of people do not choose to be on benefits and this is portraying everyone on benefits as doing it because they want to, not because they have to - it's shocking.”
> http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...ady-calls-cast-sacrificial-lambs-9063581.html




Paul '0 Grady sticks up for claimants again, but 'viewers' complain that the One Show did not allow a contrasting opinion.

The 'contrasting opinion is available nearly very day, and who can forget the 'balanced' authored pieces such as John Humphries programme on benefits

btw, Smith really is barmy, how he survives in his post is incredible


----------



## treelover (Jan 24, 2014)

https://www.thunderclap.it/projects/8151-parasite-street

good site this.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 24, 2014)

treelover said:


> Paul '0 Grady sticks up for claimants again, but 'viewers' complain that the One Show did not allow a contrasting opinion.
> 
> The 'contrasting opinion is available nearly very day, and who can forget the 'balanced' authored pieces such as John Humphries programme on benefits
> 
> btw, Smith really is barmy, how he survives in his post is incredible


and you can bet from this that a legion of tory tossers (like Michael Portillo who is happy to take their - our - coin) will think the BBC is lefty liberal nonsense.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 24, 2014)

Paul O'Grady constistantly comes across as a great guy.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 24, 2014)

If he's upsetting the village elders, he's certainly doing something right.


----------



## treelover (Jan 26, 2014)

> "Black Dee" from the TV documentary _Benefits Street_ is among a number of people living on the road who have been charged with drug and firearm offences.
> Samora Roberts, known as Dee, 32, and a prominent character in the Channel 4 series, was charged with conspiracy to supply a class B controlled drug, conspiracy to supply crack cocaine, possession of diamorphine, or heroin, and possession of ammunition for a firearm without a certificate.
> West Midlands police said the charges followed raids that took place last June at a number of addresses in the street, after concerns were raised by the community.
> Police charged seven people with drug offences following the raids, in James Turner Street, Winson Green, Birmingham, and at an address in nearby Handsworth, before the series reached the screen.
> ...



number of residents been arrested after police raid, I hope they also go after the idiots who who were threatening to kill some of the residents...


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 26, 2014)

So it's ok to hate her now as it's been revealed she's a lawbreaker, like all scroungers of course.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jan 26, 2014)

treelover said:


> number of residents been arrested after police raid, I hope they also go after the idiots who who were threatening to kill some of the residents...


I remember doing my oral history training a couple of years ago and learning about the ethics of recording people, issues of power between interviewer and interviewee, making sure people were adequately informed about potential consequences of this work. Producing a documentary which results in the arrests of voluntary participants has got to be about as low as you can get ethics wise.


----------



## treelover (Jan 26, 2014)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/benefits-street-millionaire-tory-paul-3062319#.UuVUKGdFC71


This guy seems to be doing well out of Benefits Street, 291 pounds a week for a moldy dump

The Mirror is doing sterling work on these issues, but the Sunday Mirror had an article recently on a dad of 11 'superscrounger'


----------



## treelover (Jan 26, 2014)

From the facebook page ‘Atos Miracles’, 24th Jan 2014

”As a Jobcentre worker who took early retirement last year to get away from the pressures & stress I can confirm what many contributors are saying. Since the change of government in 2010 there was a total shift in emphasis in what we are there for. It is now to “police” the benefit system, “protect the public purse” & deter people from claiming anything. We are NOT there to help or advise people anymore..."

http://welfaretales.wordpress.com/category/job-centre-2/


----------



## luke terry (Jan 27, 2014)

Can I just say all you lefties have not got a clue. You bang on about how its all unfair these cuts, oh how will I survive. You want to count yourself lucky there is a welfare as there are some countries in the developed world where there is either no welfare or it is so meagre you can just about afford bread and water. Labour kept borrowing to support the welfare and now the tories have had to clean up the mess and look like the Nasty party because the have to sort out the deficit. 

Its simple Maths if your outgoings are more than your income you have to make cuts. 

Think about that when you vote!!!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 27, 2014)

luke terry said:


> Can I just say all you lefties have not got a clue.


 Yeah you can say that...no idea who you are talking to though  Also, given the rather rude, presumptious and childish opening to your 1st post on urban. I'll not bother reading further. I'll assume it will be Tory validating nonsense and a waste of my time. HTH!


----------



## Greebo (Jan 27, 2014)

luke terry said:


> Can I just say all you lefties have not got a clue. <snip> Think about that when you vote!!!


Do you usually swagger into a pub and start shouting the odds at complete strangers, sweetie?  A bit of lurking and reading to get the tone of the place before posting might have been a good idea.  Do your lips move when you read?  I'm sorry to say that you sound as if they do.  You might at least use a few more punctuation marks - speech marks and apostrophes are free.

If you expect a reasoned debate, at least get your terms right.  In the UK we do not have "welfare", we have "benefits".  Why should I be grateful for crumbs from a system into which I've paid, my parents have paid, and my grandparents also paid?  National insurance isn't worth the name unless it pays out promptly, efficiently, and adequately when you meet the criteria for making a benefit claim.

I trust that you will soon be able to return under your bridge, as soon as the flooding has receded.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 27, 2014)

luke terry said:


> <snip>Its simple Maths </snip>


It's really not. That sort of thinking might scrape you through AS Level Economics, but it won't get you far in the real world.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 27, 2014)

luke terry said:


> ...Labour kept borrowing to support the welfare and now the tories have had to clean up the mess and look like the Nasty party because the have to sort out the deficit....



And the preceding tory governments had nothing to do with the mess hmmm? Or does your memory not stretch that far?

troll fail


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 27, 2014)

luke terry said:


> Can I just say all you lefties have not got a clue. You bang on about how its all unfair these cuts, oh how will I survive. You want to count yourself lucky there is *a welfare *as there are some countries in the developed world where there is either no welfare or it is so meagre you can just about afford bread and water. Labour kept borrowing to support the welfare and now the tories have had to clean up the mess and look like the Nasty party because the have to sort out the deficit.
> 
> Its simple Maths if your outgoings are more than your income you have to make cuts.
> 
> Think about that when you vote!!!



What's "a welfare"?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> What's "a welfare"?


it's like a penguin only with four legs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2014)

luke terry said:


> Can I just say all you lefties have not got a clue. You bang on about how its all unfair these cuts, oh how will I survive. You want to count yourself lucky there is a welfare as there are some countries in the developed world where there is either no welfare or it is so meagre you can just about afford bread and water. Labour kept borrowing to support the welfare and now the tories have had to clean up the mess and look like the Nasty party because the have to sort out the deficit.
> 
> Its simple Maths if your outgoings are more than your income you have to make cuts.
> 
> Think about that when you vote!!!



Hmmm, thanks for your opinion.  Here's a few *facts* for you (I'll start with something simple, so as not to over-tax your wits):


We're not all lefties.
As someone who actually understands the economics of austerity, I can tell you (though you'll doubtless refuse to believe me) that the cuts do actually fall asymmetrically - much harder on the lowest 2 deciles of the population than on any of the others.  So yeah, "unfairness" is an issue, especially when it is blatantly obvious that the Chancellor is deliberately avoiding making too many cuts on blocks of people who he believes will be more likely to vote Tory.
I *don't* "count myself lucky" that the UK has a welfare state, and here's why:  My family and I, and tens of millions of others, all paid into a "pooled risk" (look that up, if you've the wit) insurance policy called "National Insurance".  Social Security *isn't*, as people with opinions ,like yours would have it, a gift from the government.  For most of us it's an entitlement we contributed to.  Do *you* have any insurance policies you wouldn't make a claim on?  Didn't think so!
Labour didn't "keep borrowing to support welfare".  Having looked at what the money between 2004/2005 and 2007 (the years when the structural deficit developed - all the other years that Labour were in power were in the black, as were the preceding 5 years under Major) was spent on, you'd have to blame, in order of expense: a) The NHS; b) Education, and c) our old friend infrastructure improvement.  Now, if you have *evidence* to the contrary (that's evidence, not your opinion), that money was borrowed purely to support welfare, I'd be interested to see it.
The Tories *aren't* sorting out the deficit.  In fact we're in deeper now than we were in 2008 or 2010, purely on the basis that the Chancellor flatlined the economy through political meddling.
So how about engaging your brain?  That way, you might look less like a know-nothing troll gobshite, and more like someone who actually exercises the muscle between their ears.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's like a penguin only with four legs.



Isn't that a were-penguin?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Isn't that a were-penguin?


no that's a man who changes into a penguin when there's a full moon


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2014)

stuff_it said:


> It's really not. That sort of thinking might scrape you through AS Level Economics, but it won't get you far in the real world.



TBF, I've seen that sort of thinking get people degrees in economics, over the last 20 or so years, now that it's all about teaching neo-classical economics, rather than the history of economic systems too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> no that's a man who changes into a penguin when there's a full moon



Poor bastard.  How undignified!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Poor bastard.  How undignified!


yes, it's not good to turn into a chocolate biscuit


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 27, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> What's "a welfare"?


Perhaps he meant "elfcare".

It must be terrible to have a typing impediment.

Then again he's doing well fare a ware-penguin.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm gobsmacked..!!! Lord Freud, Aaron Antonovsky, 
Salutogenesis and what the fuck next..?? 

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/transforming-welfare



> Capita welfare reform conference, London
> How welfare has changed in the last 4 years.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 27, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> I'm gobsmacked..!!! Lord Freud, Aaron Antonovsky,
> Salutogenesis and what the fuck next..??
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/transforming-welfare


Interesting (though not surprising) to hear that being on UC is at least twice as bad as being on the dole. Hopefully I'll be well off WTC by the time I'm confronted with it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 28, 2014)

> HC 479
> *Published on 28 January 2014 by authority of the House of Commons*
> 
> *House of Commons Work and Pensions Committee*
> ...



http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmworpen/479/479.pdf


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 28, 2014)

Nice one Rutita1.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 28, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Nice one Rutita1.



Haven't read it yet but will take a good look at it tomorrow. Thought others here would like to also.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 28, 2014)

Just going to have a read in bed. Nothing like a gripping DWP/Gov report to end the day.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 28, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> I'm gobsmacked..!!! Lord Freud, Aaron Antonovsky,
> Salutogenesis and what the fuck next..??
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/transforming-welfare


This is just sinister; the job of welfare to reward work?

That's the responsibility of the employer, and if employers won't do it then government should intervene.

Fuck these people. This is just about moulding the labour market and the workforce to accept crappier terms and conditions. All headed by a grubby financier with no experience of welare nor any kind of democratic mandate.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Jan 29, 2014)

Look, Channel 5 are looking to make their bash the poor show,
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ne...ts and Work&utm_content=B+Jan+2014+newsletter


----------



## treelover (Jan 29, 2014)

There was nothing more likely than all the other channels would start their own 'benefits street' productions, these will have increasingly poorer production values, more sensationalism, etc, don't you just love a free media?


----------



## treelover (Jan 29, 2014)

"I would like to use my time this morning to reflect on the past 4 years, and in particular how different the welfare landscape is now compared to 2010.
In short, it is very different. And the change has been long overdue.
We are introducing the most fundamental reforms to the welfare and pensions systems for more than 60 years.
These are structural changes designed to reward work, encourage responsibility and help those who need it most.

And we are already starting to see the impacts of these reforms."

Lord Fraud...


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 29, 2014)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Look, Channel 5 are looking to make their bash the poor show,
> http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/2595-media-begins-hunt-for-fresh-claimant-victims?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Benefits and Work&utm_content=B Jan 2014 newsletter


when I last set the channels on my TV I deleted all the Desmond network shit.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 29, 2014)

A potential fundraiser for welfare campaigners everywhere:


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 29, 2014)

Funny how we get to take money from the poor, at the drop of a hat, to 'encourage responsibility', but if we want to encouarge responsibility from the rich cunts at the top of the food chain...notsomuch.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 31, 2014)

Having a heart attack during your ATOS medical means you withdrew from completing the assessment and can be sanctioned according to Jobcentre Plus:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sick-benefits-claimant-heart-attack-3098219#.UuvlfRB_uvk


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 31, 2014)

who told him he was having a heart attack? 

was it the assessor? it must have been surely. How can they argue he withdrew?

ffs this getting worse and fucking worse.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 31, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Having a heart attack during your ATOS medical means you withdrew from completing the assessment and can be sanctioned according to Jobcentre Plus <snip>


It's official, the world's gone mad.


----------



## pogo 10 (Jan 31, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Having a heart attack during your ATOS medical means you withdrew from completing the assessment and can be sanctioned according to Jobcentre Plus:
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sick-benefits-claimant-heart-attack-3098219#.UuvlfRB_uvk


Thats disgusting. Theres no end to the stunts they pull.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 1, 2014)

http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...ect/work-and-pensions-committee/news/jcp-rpt/

IDS is back in front oof the select committee (unless he's too busy throwing poor people under a bus or something) on Monday. Should be worth a watch on the livestream.

Apparently there's also a DWP report that (all but) confirms what we have long known about targets for sanctions.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 1, 2014)

> *Benefits blow for Wolverhampton billboard jobseeker*
> *Paul Hyde thought standing at the side of the road with a home-made sign, advertising himself for work would show just how much he wanted a job.*
> 
> *But the Job Centre stopped his unemployment benefit because he failed to prove to staff that he was actively looking for work, it has emerged.*



http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2014/02/01/benefits-blow-for-wolverhampton-billboard-jobseeker/


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 1, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2014/02/01/benefits-blow-for-wolverhampton-billboard-jobseeker/


This is absurd to the point of tragedy.


----------



## Jackobi (Feb 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> IDS is back in front oof the select committee (unless he's too busy throwing poor people under a bus or something) on Monday. Should be worth a watch on the livestream.



Starting at 4:30, in about half an hour.

----------

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=14819

Wilson Room 
Meeting starts at 4.30pm

*Financial Scrutiny: Department for Work and Pensions Annual Report and Accounts 2012-13 *
_Witnesses_

Rt Hon Iain Duncan Smith MP, Secretary of State, Robert Devereux, Permanent Secretary, and Mike Driver, Director General for Finance, Department for Work and Pension
----------


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 3, 2014)

Just found this...


> Sent to a friend by a whistle blower.
> 
> Hi I work within the DWP so please don't use my name as it could cost me my job.
> 
> ...


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 3, 2014)

Jackobi said:


> Starting at 4:30, in about half an hour.
> 
> ----------
> 
> ...


I missed most of it. Though I did hear them saying that it cost 48p to process a fast track bank payment (same day iirc) and so that costs too much money for IDS' liking, even though he's 'saving' money elsewhere - mostly from them chaging the index to which benefit rises are linked and from time limiting ESA (the miracle cure!). So fucking use that money then you morons!

Then I heard IDS say that it's better for crisis loan claimants to have face to face assessments, rather than just claim over the phone. Apparently too many people were receiving loans this way (if he thinks its easy he didn't talk to the wanker I talked to a few years back who played me for a right mug). Some people were apparently receiving 10 or 11 loans per year! Shock horror - can't think why that might be!

What he doesn't explain is how people in crisis are meant to attend face to face appointments because there's no way they will come to you!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 4, 2014)

According to the Mirror, IDS is considering scrapping winter fuel allowances for OAP's, as well as bus passes and TV licenses. Not sure if this is new news - he's probably been considering it for a while.



> He revealed today: “We need maximum flexibility with the cap. Pretty much all existing ringfences will have to disappear.”


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 6, 2014)

Crisis has a pdf about Universal Credit. It's probably nothing new, but it does confirm, once again, the stupidity that lives inside IDS's head:



> 16. Will claimants who are in work still be subject to conditionality and
> sanctions?
> Yes. UC claimants earning under the ‘conditionality earnings threshold’ (usually the
> equivalent of 35 hours at National Minimum Wage – currently £210 per week for a
> ...



So if you are working and you fall foul of the system, for whatever reason, you can kiss the support you need to continue in that job (and live), which will likely compound your 'offence' and subsequently bump up the sanction period.

And you will stand no chance of making a go of a job unless it pays substantially since you won't get any benefit if you subsequently find work while sanctioned.

This has to be the most retrograde self defeating and wholly counter productive nonsense ever.

The CAB also cover it.


----------



## BigTom (Feb 6, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Crisis has a pdf about Universal Credit. It's probably nothing new, but it does confirm, once again, the stupidity that lives inside IDS's head:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, absolutely grim, only upside is that it's something that is going too far imo, I think that the majority of people accept the idea/principle of sanctions for unemployed people and actively support them for people they consider undeserving unemployed (with many people putting all unemployed people in this category), but the idea that people who are already in a job should be sanctioned for not doing enough to find work is beyond this acceptance (at the moment at least).
I await the first person getting sanctioned because they got called in to work and missed a JCP appointment. Will definitely happen.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 6, 2014)

I don't accept sanctions at all. Putting people into absolute poverty is no kind of policy IMO.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I don't accept sanctions at all. Putting people into absolute poverty is no kind of policy IMO.



In their opinion it's a great policy, because for the length of the sanction it means at most paying out 60% of basic social security as a "hardship payment", and shifting the onus for the rest onto the charitable sector. Pure economism.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 7, 2014)

Haven't they done away with hardship payments (or passed them onto local authorities along with crisis loans)?

Same with rapid reclaims (as I overheard last time I signed on).

Someone who's sanctioned will struggle if offered a job in a great many cases and then will be hit again for refusing a job. The PCS need to get their act together on this. I pu this to the Socialist Party, having joined them last year, and was told the PCS have been on strike more than any other union, but get no solidarity (more or less).


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 8, 2014)

Carers and those with a personal care plan should have a read of this posted by a good friend and carer who has struggled a while with the system and SS.  

https://www.facebook.com/notes/tismes-page/fraud-just-got-personal/479142662190018

For those not on FB 



> *Fraud just got Personal*
> 8 February 2014 at 19:23
> If you are a carer of a severely disabled person, you might recognise this story.
> 
> ...


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 9, 2014)

I'm reliably informed that councillors in Bristol voted 70% against evictions over the Bedroom Under Tax Occupancy Charge Subsidy (or BUTOCS  - sorry i have barely slept thanks to the latest storm overhead).

Índependent' Mayor Ferguson overruled them and cut opposing speakers off mid flow.

Hooray for the Merchant Venturers of Bristol (and their honourary only female member, Maggie Thatcher)!


----------



## Greebo (Feb 9, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Carers and those with a personal care plan should have a read of this posted by a good friend and carer who has struggled a while with the system and SS.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/notes/tismes-page/fraud-just-got-personal/479142662190018
> 
> For those not on FB


Thanks for forwarding that - I'm just relieved that so far VP and I have managed to keep clear of personal care plans and just use the DLA as he sees fit.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 9, 2014)

The lady who wrote that has been in constant battle with SS and other agencies for a good couple of years now Greebo  Thankfully she's well genned up on all aspects of care for her severely disabled son. Plenty of practice fighting against bullshit in the care sector.


----------



## treelover (Feb 9, 2014)

Media is reporting that Govt is seting up a new 70m private sector organisation to get long term sick back to work, anyone who has been on sick leave for more that four months can apply, apparently its non compulsory, yeah right, so with U/C that means nearly all the working/non working population will be under Sauron's gaze, I mean the DWP.


----------



## treelover (Feb 9, 2014)

> *State pension service could be privatised under DWP plans*
> Department for Work and Pensions considers privatisation as part of search for savings as budget shrinks by a third
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/09/state-pension-service-privatisation-dwp-plans




Fuck  they may be going for the big one(or kite flying)Duncan Smith again, its not pensions themselves, but the administration of them. But, this could backfire as pensioners and soon to be ones, won't like such radical change during their pension lifetimes.

Pensions is perhaps the only area where the DWP works well.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 10, 2014)

treelover said:


> Media is reporting that Govt is seting up a new 70m private sector organisation to get long term sick back to work, anyone who has been on sick leave for more that four months can apply, apparently its non compulsory, yeah right, so with U/C that means nearly all the working/non working population will be under Sauron's gaze, I mean the DWP.


How does that work? If the state sets it up, how is it then not a public sector thing?

Why is this any different than the rest of these companies and schemes; all of which have failed to do anything? I'm still waiting for the Salvation Army Employment Pluys to write me back after I spoke to them a month ago. The whole (non) experience of the Work Programme has been laughable.

This is just good money after bad.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 12, 2014)

joke from facebook


> So Atos found me fit for work and I went looking for a job. I saw in the Daily Express an advert for W.C.A Assessor in all areas.
> I thought I might try for that job with Atos,
> so I wandered into their Main office today and says to the receptionist,
> "I would like to put my name forward for the job of WCA Assessor please."
> ...


----------



## treelover (Feb 12, 2014)

DWP rush out report that says nearly 2/3's of claimants applying for PIP have been rejected.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 12, 2014)

treelover said:


> DWP rush out report that says nearly 2/3's of claimants applying for PIP have been rejected.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 12, 2014)

treelover said:


> DWP rush out report that says nearly 2/3's of claimants applying for PIP have been rejected.


where?


----------



## treelover (Feb 13, 2014)

Reported on national broadcast media, BBC News Channel, Sky News, reckon it would have been main story without the floods, benefits and work newsletter reported on it, maybe someone has a link here.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 13, 2014)

treelover said:


> DWP rush out report that says nearly 2/3's of claimants applying for PIP have been rejected.


DWP don't rush out any decisions on PIP, taking so much time for special rules claims that people were dying before they'd done anything.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 13, 2014)

Hey Pauli. Long time no read.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 13, 2014)

There's JVs blog here about the PIP farce with links and the DWP Statistics: Personal Independence Payment: management information


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 13, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Hey Pauli. Long time no read.


altight dollface xx


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 13, 2014)

or alright even. think its prolly time for bed


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 13, 2014)

Ditto. Gas for heating just ran out. Not altight just skint. JSA tomorrow though.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 13, 2014)

keep on keeping on 

g'night


----------



## treelover (Feb 13, 2014)

http://ilegal.org.uk/thread/8372/flood-pip-appeals-figures-released?page=1&scrollTo=21130

found a link, shocking

btw, only 63 views on P/P for the ATOS protests next week


----------



## treelover (Feb 13, 2014)

> http://welfarenewsservice.com/shocking-extent-sick-disabled-benefit-sanctions-revealed/
> 
> over 170'000 on ESA sanctioned
> Confirmed: calls to fraud hotline will trigger DLA to PIP transfers
> ...




update, please read the comments after the second article, this may not be fully correct

some more unpleasant news


----------



## Greebo (Feb 13, 2014)

treelover said:


> update, please read the comments after the second article, this may not be fully correct
> 
> some more unpleasant news


Thanks for the warning.


----------



## treelover (Feb 13, 2014)

A friend who is on JSA had to to her Grandad's funeral and was told she couldn't be allowed to miss her signing on day unless "she took it as one of her one week holiday allocation"


----------



## 8115 (Feb 13, 2014)

treelover said:


> DWP rush out report that says nearly 2/3's of claimants applying for PIP have been rejected.


It was on Benefits and Work.  It would be interesting to know how many DLA applications used to be rejected, and what the volume of PIP applications is compared to DLA application.


----------



## superfly101 (Feb 14, 2014)

treelover said:


> Media is reporting that Govt is seting up a new 70m private sector organisation to get long term sick back to work, anyone who has been on sick leave for more that four months can apply, apparently its non compulsory, yeah right, so with U/C that means nearly all the working/non working population will be under Sauron's gaze, I mean the DWP.



It's the DWPs' ultimate plan called Health Work Wellbeing.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-work-and-wellbeing-caring-for-our-future


The ultimate goal is removal of GP and NHS services to be replaced by an ingratiated DWP & preferred private partner set up. 

The above is just WRAG for employed folks - the ultimate goal is to remove GPs power and have you see the DWPs preferred Occupational Health service after seeing your GP to see if you can work that day.

ESA is now WRAG 0-12 months Work Program, WRAG 12-18 Intensive Heath Care Support (this is replacing NHS services which will be non existant after 2015) - Ingeus are running the pilots https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pilot-schemes-to-help-people-on-sickness-benefits-back-to-work. 

'Health and Social Care Information Centre' (HSCIC) or care.data database all our records are going on is being used to monitor GP performance targets for commissioning. Or removing services from the public to private provision as it sometimes goes by.

If you find some of the vision documents from 2007/2008 you'll see most of it is in place now and with the DWPs' mastery of statistics it's already a roaring success 

Hi by the way


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 14, 2014)

I thought WRAG was time limited to 12 months anyway.


----------



## 8115 (Feb 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I thought WRAG was time limited to 12 months anyway.


I think that is contributions based. After that you are means tested.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 14, 2014)

8115 said:


> I think that is contributions based. After that you are means tested.


It is. If you have a partner that earns over a paltry sum of around £8000 then not eligible for ESA WRAG. Single people with savings under £6000 are usually entitled to it again.


----------



## Dr Jon (Feb 15, 2014)

'A disgrace': Catholic leader Vincent Nichols attacks Coalition's welfare reforms


----------



## treelover (Feb 15, 2014)

superfly101 said:


> It's the DWPs' ultimate plan called Health Work Wellbeing.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-work-and-wellbeing-caring-for-our-future
> 
> ...




This is fucking dystopian, , and of course NL were in power in 2008 when much of it was conceived, not certain it will all come to fruition despite evidence to the contrary.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Feb 15, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> 'A disgrace': Catholic leader Vincent Nichols attacks Coalition's welfare reforms



I saw that this morning.  I wonder how often they and the CofE have spoken out about this issue so far (apart from the CofE letter last year that is mentioned in the article).  They are in a pretty influential position to do so.  If they kept banging on about it could be helpful.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 15, 2014)

superfly101 said:


> It's the DWPs' ultimate plan called Health Work Wellbeing.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-work-and-wellbeing-caring-for-our-future
> 
> ...


What NHS services are you referring to here? I'm not aware of anything specific that your GP can offer to ESA claimants. Or do you mean the coalition's plans to take the ability to sign people off away.


----------



## superfly101 (Feb 15, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> do you mean the coalition's plans to take the ability to sign people off away.


The GP issue has been a bug bear to the DWP for a long while. Have a read of the 29 page fitnote guidance the DWP produced for GPs under the Wellbeing banner and it's pretty clear that the DWP are having hissy fits and want that power removed. The debate on GP's salaries has already started in the media which is the clearest indication that they're next in the Governments firing line.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 15, 2014)

superfly101 said:


> The GP issue has been a bug bear to the DWP for a long while. Have a read of the 29 page fitnote guidance the DWP produced for GPs under the Wellbeing banner and it's pretty clear that the DWP are having hissy fits and want that power removed. The debate on GP's salaries has already started in the media which is the clearest indication that they're next in the Governments firing line.


 Indeed, but is that what you were referring to. Or do you mean something else?


----------



## superfly101 (Feb 15, 2014)

Sorry your bit about GPs and ESA services confused me a little.

You need to look into how the DWP are using the Health Work Wellbeing program to drive reform in the way the NHS provides services. The 80's saw this plan start, it accelerated during the Labour years and has become a defunding back door privatisation bonanza since 2010. 2015 is the year the tree fruits, well that was the expected date but I'm of treelovers' view here it just isn't happing as planned. With commissioning around the corner Ingeus, Crapita, G4S and their ilk will be looking for fat payments to take over these missing services by tendering. Before the Work Program was defunded and went all "black box" it was envisioned that there would be more and varied treatments available via it than would be left in the NHS. ESA/PIP with all these pilots the DWP are running are just risk free ways for Crapita and the like to test the water and set up services. It's all going a bit wrong in the private provision take up stakes but that hasn't stopped the vitriolic gusto in defunding and removing existing service provision. 

GP surgeries although private enterprises working on NHS contracts are not the private enterprises the DWP wants. It has to negotiate and can not set it's own terms of reference like it can do with G4S etc. Once GP's are bench marked via commissioning tables I'm expecting the knife to go in and an ending of the GP service we know and love.  

To summarise it's already a car crash for service users about to become a full on motorway pile up as the fog of the H W & Wellbeing program comes together.

Mental Health provision in the NHS is one area as IAPT were put in by the DWP. The secondary services CMHT and IPTT that were expensive are all but gone thanks to the yearly funding cuts from 2010 ending 2015. As an example in 2010 the IPTT had a whole Wing to itself in ST Thomas' Hospital by Waterloo - it's now confined to the basement of that wing. Had a meeting there with it's head (who's a crackin lass) recently as I had to raise a complaint with the Chief Exec of the trust about the NHS refusing to treat me! But that's another story for another time.

The nice private psychiatrist I saw before Christmas said I was a wee bit paranoid I'm 50/50 between intelligence and the Father Ted to Father Dougal dreams v's reality drawing


----------



## treelover (Feb 17, 2014)

> “illness is neither an indulgence for which people have to pay, nor an offence for which they should be penalised, but a misfortune, the cost of which should be shared by the community



Nye Bevan, 1961


----------



## treelover (Feb 18, 2014)

> New Catholic cardinal renews attack on 'disgraceful' UK austerity cuts
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/...ent-nichols-attacks-welfare-cuts-pope-francis


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2014)

Interesting:



> A new First Tier Tribunal bedroom tax appeal decision from Liverpool, again a successful one, and this time on wholly new grounds. The decision statement is here (and also on the FTT decisions page)





> This is a first for a Tribunal finding on these grounds. I understand that the grounds echo those of the Liberty backed Judicial Review of the bedroom tax Regulations, brought by a separated family and children. This JR is ongoing, as far as I know, but I haven’t heard anything of its progress.
> 
> There is the usual question of how the FTT deals with ‘reading in accordance with’. The FTT has a track record of taking that to mean ‘pretending the regulations say what they ought to’, which is not how the higher courts will deal with the issue.
> 
> But this is a whole new ground for FTT appeals.  And it will be very interesting to see how these play out.


----------



## Dr Jon (Feb 20, 2014)

God hates Tories:
Bishops blame David Cameron for food bank crisis


> In one of the most significant political interventions by leading members of the Church of England since the Faith in the City report in 1985, 25 of its bishops have blamed "cutbacks to and failures in the benefit system" for forcing people to use food banks. They are joined by two bishops from the Church in Wales, 14 Methodist districts chairs and two Quakers


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 20, 2014)

Some sanction help from the interwebs.


----------



## treelover (Feb 20, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> God hates Tories:
> Bishops blame David Cameron for food bank crisis



Afaic, there is no coverage of this on the broadcast media: BBC News Channel, Sky, yet the BBC will report every single negative policy/utterance from the Coalition about benefits, etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2014)

treelover said:


> Afaic, there is no coverage of this on the broadcast media: BBC News Channel, Sky, yet the BBC will report every single negative policy/utterance from the Coalition about benefits, etc.


It's already had a big piece on the BBC news channel.


----------



## treelover (Feb 20, 2014)

oops, what time was that?

I deliberately watched a whole hour from 11-12, it is on text service.


----------



## Dr Jon (Feb 20, 2014)

treelover said:


> Afaic, there is no coverage of this on the broadcast media: BBC News Channel, Sky, yet the BBC will report every single negative policy/utterance from the Coalition about benefits, etc.


That's why I posted the link at gone 3 in the morning - before it disappeared in a tide of trivia.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 20, 2014)

DWP have said they are dumping Atos and expect G4S, Serco, A4E and Capita to bid for the WCA brutalizer program. Now Atos have come out and said they're giving it up as they can't take the shit anymore. Still they've had their 30 pieces of silver in the millions they've raked in.

As the bishops are bashing the coalition and DEFRA hidden report links welfare reform to poverty is this the end of IDS ideology?

FT paywall link.



> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5abc8d36-9a28-11e3-8232-00144feab7de.html#ixzz2ttuKIhdX
> *Outsource group seeks exit from UK £500m benefits contract after death threats*
> By Gill Plimmer
> 
> ...


----------



## J Ed (Feb 20, 2014)

> Examples on Facebook include: “murdering scumbags . . . won’t be smiling when we come to hang you bastards”. Another says: “Know anyone who works for Atos? Kill them.”


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 20, 2014)

Just the other week an Atos shill was extolling the virtues of their WCA and all the happy clients/customers/claimants/stock that go through it to the *EDIT*  Public Administration Select Committee..  Yet in the article it states..



> The French IT company has been in discussions with the Department for Work and Pensions with a view to exiting the deal since October last year, because it views the tests as “outdated”.
> 
> “In its current form it is not working for claimants, for DWP or for Atos Healthcare,” Atos said. “For several months now we have been endeavouring to agree an early exit from the contract, which is due to expire in August 2015.”



Wading through government, DWP and corporate outsourcing bullshit.


----------



## Dr Jon (Feb 20, 2014)

Also see:
The obsession with ‘hard work’ as a route to economic success is a dangerous distraction


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 20, 2014)

Good article. Explains these shitstains in power perfectly.


----------



## Dr Jon (Feb 20, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Good article. Explains these shitstains in power perfectly.


There was another story my g/f mentioned a while back re. performance of different WP contractors. 
Some were actually very good at helping long-term unemployed re-skill and find sustainable employment; the majority were just fascist sanction generators.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 21, 2014)

I can agree with that. The one I'm lumped with, Ingeus, has outsourced me to a long time local training provider, Tell. They don't train any more. They just wait for crumbs from the £150m 'taxpayer handout' Ingeus get. The good ones scrape the 5-12% success rate. Seriously.. £5bn for a 12% outcome. Insanity.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 21, 2014)

Bedroom Tax Report. 

Raquel Rolnik Report of the Special Rapporteur on adequate housing as a 
component of the right to an adequate standard of living, and on the right to non-discrimination in this context, 

http://direitoamoradia.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/A_HRC_25_54_Add.2_ENG.pdf

Addendum 
Mission to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland


----------



## treelover (Feb 21, 2014)

> The Royal National Institute of Blind People (RNIB) is threatening the Department of Work and Pensions with court action for suspending the benefits of a blind man after he missed appointments which he was only informed about through letters he was not able to read......
> "We get these complaints all the time," Fothergill said. She added that the DWP's system for sending out accessible information was "appalling" and "not fit for purpose". The DWP were "making blanket decisions" to sanction people rather than looking at their individual circumstances.
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/19/rnib-dwp-blind-court-action-benefits
> 
> Report


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 21, 2014)

While they use workfare and remove all mention of it on their FB page. DWP are wrong, but, RNIB profit from MWA.


----------



## chainsawjob (Feb 21, 2014)

Commons select Committee inquiry into ESA



> The Committee is particularly interested to hear views on:
> 
> 
> Delivery of the WCA by Atos, including steps taken to improve the claimant experience
> ...



http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...and-pensions-committee/news/esa-wca-inq-2014/

I'm not sure how I'd be able to put it across, but the WCA is particularly crap for measuring how mental health and fluctuating conditons affect ability to work, in fact I don't think any sort of test can really capture this full stop, a lot of symptoms are nigh on impossible to quantify.  The questions as they stand on the ESA50 are largely utter nonsense.

Does anyone have any experience of submitting to this sort of thing, does it achieve anything?  And surely it's all been told to them before, like that long report recently (Spartacus? Broken of Britain?) with lots of first person accounts of people's experiences?  

(and can someone remind me how you post links with a shorter name like 'link here' instead of putting in the whole thing - thanks)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 21, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Just the other week an Atos shill was extolling the virtues of their WCA and all the happy clients/customers/claimants/stock that go through it to the *EDIT*  Public Administration Select Committee..  Yet in the article it states..
> 
> 
> 
> Wading through government, DWP and corporate outsourcing bullshit.


Bet they'll still get paid in full up to original date though!


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2014)

treelover said:


> oops, what time was that?
> 
> I deliberately watched a whole hour from 11-12, it is on text service.


Pretty much when you made your post. I'm no fan of the bbc coverage of cuts, but you've got to give them more than an hour, esp when the thing had only been released that morning.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's already had a big piece on the BBC news channel.


And Today certainly did a piece on it.


----------



## treelover (Feb 21, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> There was another story my g/f mentioned a while back re. performance of different WP contractors.
> Some were actually very good at helping long-term unemployed re-skill and find sustainable employment; the majority were just *fascist sanction generators*.


----------



## treelover (Feb 21, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> And Today certainly did a piece on it.



fair enough, but a few years ago it would have led the bulletins through the whole day.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 21, 2014)

treelover said:


> fair enough, but a few years ago it would have led the bulletins through the whole day.


as much as i would agree about media bias in reporting on welfare, it's also the case that 24-hour rolling news means the nature of the stories that lead bulletins has changed greatly as well.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 21, 2014)

benefit cap appeal rejected http://www.11kbw.com/knowledge-events/case/court-of-appeal-rejects-benefit-cap-challenge

bedroom tax appeal rejected http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26288112


----------



## treelover (Feb 21, 2014)

http://www.southwales-eveningpost.c...tory-20644155-detail/story.html#ixzz2thjfvqwX


Removing phones from job centres?, when you can be sanctioned for not making the correct number of applications, not connected....


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 21, 2014)

treelover said:


> http://www.southwales-eveningpost.c...tory-20644155-detail/story.html#ixzz2thjfvqwX
> 
> 
> Removing phones from job centres?, when you can be sanctioned for not making the correct number of applications, not connected....


 Where they tell you to phone an office to find out if they, the person you are asking at the desk, can take a payment for a budgeting loan.

Or where if you have a question about a benefit decision you are told to ring the office as they can't deal with it themselves.

Or, as i saw one person, when i was last in the place, trying to sort out how he was to attend his WP/similar course having been removed by te adviser running it for being angry. The guy seemed genuinely contrite and just wanted a resolution. The desk staff were no use and pointed him, repeatedly, to the phones.

Are these people to just send emails now? This is fucking insane?

Have you seen a white rabbit Mr Smith?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 23, 2014)

Sign up and post this around to scare the shit out of the main opposition party at the moment. Yes that other quite large party.. Labour. Not saying where this campaign came from but it's not difficult to guess. 

Labour, Put your money where your mouth is. it won't cost you £3 membership to have a say either 



> *We Challenge Labour Campaign*
> Ed Miliband says he will reverse the Bedroom Tax, NHS Privatisation, Work Capability Test, & Sack Atos Healthcare!
> 
> To do this would take the repealing of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 by his party,so Ed are you going to do this?
> ...


----------



## ddraig (Feb 24, 2014)

*Richest MP in Britain slams welfare state but makes £625k a year in housing benefit*
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/richest-mp-britain-slams-welfare-3178089
don't let them eat cake, let them pay for mine mwuahhahahahahaha


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2014)

ddraig said:


> *Richest MP in Britain slams welfare state but makes £625k a year in housing benefit*
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/richest-mp-britain-slams-welfare-3178089
> don't let them eat cake, let them pay for mine mwuahhahahahahaha



Oh come on, he isn't 'getting something for nothing' he is providing housing. Whether or not you agree with the present system, and I don't, he is a landlord; albeit a big one; In the same way as posters on these boards are.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 24, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> Oh come on, he isn't 'getting something for nothing' he is providing housing. Whether or not you agree with the present system, and I don't, he is a landlord; albeit a big one; In the same way as posters on these boards are.


where did i say that?
are the posters on this board who are landlords slamming the welfare state???

ah, you've got it twisted, again
he is saying those on welfare are getting something for nothing


> A Tory MP worth £110million is raking in £625,000 a year from his hard-up tenants’ housing benefit – despite blasting the “something for nothing” welfare state.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> Oh come on, he isn't 'getting something for nothing' he is providing housing. Whether or not you agree with the present system, and I don't, he is a landlord; albeit a big one; In the same way as posters on these boards are.


Nor are benefit recipients getting something for nothing. That's the whole point. Go and have a lie down.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 24, 2014)

and does he have to provide it at such a high price when he is worth millions??

and try not to go for the 'market rate' obvious argument

e2a to sas


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> Oh come on, he isn't 'getting something for nothing' he is providing housing. Whether or not you agree with the present system, and I don't, he is a landlord; albeit a big one; In the same way as posters on these boards are.


No he's not. He's a landlord in a very very different way from anyone on here. He's thieving the system. And your anger is at minor description of him.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2014)

ddraig said:


> and does he have to provide it at such a high price when he is worth millions??
> 
> and try not to go for the 'market rate' obvious argument
> 
> e2a to sas



I am not defending the man, merely pointing out that like other landlords, he is providing housing.

There are those on the boards who let out houses, whether they are recipients of housing benefit, I don't know. 

At it's broadest, you could state that those in receipt of housing benefit are getting 'something for nothing', however, my personal view is that society in general is paying* to meet the needs of those in need.

* Paying too much. I wince on a daily basis when I hear how much people are paying in rent. 

Has anyone done a cost/benefit analysis of HB going to build social housing instead of lining the pockets of private landlords?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 24, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> I am not defending the man, merely pointing out that like other landlords, he is providing housing.
> 
> There are those on the boards who let out houses, whether they are recipients of housing benefit, I don't know.
> 
> ...



but the method used (HB) means that private landlords are getting the mortgages paid from the public purse and have zero obligation to keep such property as social


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> I am not defending the man, merely pointing out that like other landlords, he is providing housing.
> 
> There are those on the boards who let out houses, whether they are recipients of housing benefit, I don't know.
> 
> ...


Who is in receipt of housing benefit?


----------



## ddraig (Feb 24, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> I am not defending the man, merely pointing out that like other landlords, he is providing housing.
> 
> There are those on the boards who let out houses, whether they are recipients of housing benefit, I don't know.
> 
> ...


not defending landlords but are you actually comparing the self confessed 'accidental' landlords of urban with 1 property to this man with 1000's of properties??

and NO they are NOT getting something for NOTHING, would you expect help if you needed it?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 25, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> Oh come on, he isn't 'getting something for nothing' he is providing housing. Whether or not you agree with the present system, and I don't, he is a landlord; albeit a big one; In the same way as posters on these boards are.


You are having a laugh, surely!

They complain the benefit system is too generous while Profitting from it


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 25, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> Oh come on, he isn't 'getting something for nothing' he is providing housing. Whether or not you agree with the present system, and I don't, he is a landlord; albeit a big one; In the same way as posters on these boards are.



Although one could argue that as he inherited most of his land and fortune, he has indeed "got something for nothing".  It's not like he purchased his _rentier_ empire from the sweat of his own brow, is it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 25, 2014)

dp


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 25, 2014)

ddraig said:


> and does he have to provide it at such a high price when he is worth millions??
> 
> and try not to go for the 'market rate' obvious argument
> 
> e2a to sas



TBF he's merely following a modern version of what his ancestors did when they rented out tied housing to their labourers, generally at an above-market rent rate.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 25, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Although one could argue that as he inherited most of his land and fortune, he has indeed "got something for nothing".  It's not like he purchased his _rentier_ empire from the sweat of his own brow, is it?


 and most of these landed gentry types get massive subsidies from the other institution they all bemoan, namely "yerp".

How they function I don't know.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 25, 2014)

ddraig said:


> *Richest MP in Britain slams welfare state but makes £625k a year in housing benefit*
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/richest-mp-britain-slams-welfare-3178089
> don't let them eat cake, let them pay for mine mwuahhahahahahaha



You think he's bad, have a look at these two loathsome fucking parasites

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/revealed-fatcat-landlords-squalid-hostel-3178185


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 25, 2014)

I wish i hadn't read that link. What a pair of absolute effluent.


----------



## bywhacky (Feb 27, 2014)

*





 WOW Petition debated by MPs on 27 February *
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/....php?t=4907340

Our goal is to post up information on work undertaken in the House of Commons that has a consumer focus but which may not be highlighted elsewhere.

We have posted this on the Disability and Dosh board because we thought some of you might be interested in the topic of debate – you might even have signed the petition yourself. We encourage discussion and comments concerning the topic or content of this thread.


Effects of Welfare Reform on Sick and Disabled People
Thursday 27 February, due to start at c. 11.30-11.45am* in the House of Commons Chamber

The motion for debate is:

"That this House calls on the Government to commission an independent cumulative assessment of the impact of changes in the welfare system on sick and disabled people, their families and carers, drawing upon the expertise of the Work and Pensions Select Committee;

requests that this impact assessment examine care home admissions, access to day care centres, access to education for people with learning difficulties, provision of universal mental health treatments, closures of Remploy factories, the Government’s contract with Atos Healthcare, IT implementation of universal credit, human rights abuses against disabled people, excess deaths of welfare claimants and the disregard of medical evidence in decision-making by Atos, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Tribunals Service;

urges the Secretary of State for Health and the Secretary of State for Education jointly to launch a consultation on improving support into work for sick and disabled people; and further calls on the Government to end with immediate effect the work capability assessment, as voted for by the British Medical Association, to discontinue forced work under the threat of sanctions for people on disability benefits and to bring forward legislative proposals to allow a free vote on repeal of the Welfare Reform Act 2012."

This debate relates to the e-petition: We call for a Cumulative Impact Assessment of Welfare Reform, and a New Deal for sick & disabled people based on their needs, abilities and ambitions.

The e-petition called for:

A Cumulative Impact Assessment of all cuts and changes affecting sick & disabled people, their families and carers, and a free vote on repeal of the Welfare Reform Act.

An immediate end to the Work Capability Assessment, as voted for by the British Medical Association.

Consultation between the Depts of Health & Education to improve support into work for sick & disabled people, and an end to forced work under threat of sanctions for people on disability benefits.
An Independent, Committee-Based Inquiry into Welfare Reform, covering but not limited to: (1) Care home admission rises, daycare centres, access to education for people with learning difficulties, universal mental health treatments, Remploy closures; (2) DWP media links, the ATOS contract, IT implementation of Universal Credit; (3) Human rights abuses against disabled people, excess claimant deaths & the disregard of medical evidence in decision making by ATOS, DWP & the Tribunal Service.

In total 104,721 people signed the e-petition.
If you would like more details please go to the ‘WOW’ e-petition webpage


About the Backbench Business Committee:

The Backbench Business Committee meets weekly on Tuesdays at 3pm to consider requests for debates from any backbench Members of Parliament on any subject, including those raised in e-petitions or national campaigns.

An MP must make a representation before the Committee for an e-petition or petition to be debated; e-petitions exceeding the Government's 100,000 signature threshold are not automatically allocated backbench time.

The Committee then has to decide how to allocate the limited Parliamentary time it has at its disposal.

To find out more information about how an e-petition can be debated at Parliament visit e-petitions and the Backbench Business Committee


How to watch:

The Debate can be viewed on Parliament TV (Silverlight or Windows Media Player required to stream TV): Parliament TV Player

Transcripts of proceedings in the House of Commons Chamber are available three hours after they happen in Todays Commons Debates


* It may begin later if any Urgent Questions or further Statements are granted on the day, as Parliamentary business is subject to change.

Thanks
DOT
Official Organisation Representative
I’m the official organisation rep for the House of Commons. I work in the Digital Outreach team (DOT). We do not work for or represent the government. We are politically impartial and cannot comment on government policy. Find out more in DOT's Mission Statement.

MSE has given permission for me to post letting you know about relevant and useful info. You can see my name on the organisations with permission to post list. If you believe I've broken the Forum Rules please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. This does NOT imply any form of approval of my organisation by MSE
​


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

Place your bets: how long before IDS scurries off this time? Will he even attend, or will'
 we have another overwrought performance from McVey?


----------



## superfly101 (Feb 27, 2014)

NAO report on PIP implementation is in and it's a big fat fail!

Thread on benefits board here http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/national-audt-office-report-on-pip-implementation.321131/


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

You know I'd love to think IDS might pay attention to this, or that Cameron might take action against his ministers, or that even the electorate might respond likewise.

I'm just too cynical. I will watc the debate with interest though, providing we don't get a repetition of the disgusting performace from the Foodbank debacle.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

#wowdebate2014

there's about 4 people in the house.

FOR FUCKS SAKE!


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 27, 2014)

#wowdebate2014

IDS refuses to take onboard actual peoples stories of the effect of the WCA calling them anecdotal evidence yet accepts anecdotal evidence of scroungers to push through his vile policies. Tory standing now giving a few anecdotal stories of people with illness/disability working success stories from his constituency.

Oh if we all lived there.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

#wowdebate2014

Alan Reid; you are a fucking coward.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

#wowdebate2014

Some tory up now spuriously spewing nonsense about ballooning welfare expenditure, while complaining about people with unchanging conditions receiving money constantly. FFS!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

God bless Dennis Skinner.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 27, 2014)

Shame he was cut off in full flow to make room for another Tory waffler.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 27, 2014)

Ahtos or Aytos? One of these pronunciations annoys me.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Shame he was cut off in full flow to make room for another Tory waffler.


...who went to make a cheap point about playing to the gallery before saying she too had working class credentials


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

What's the bets that, by this evening, that fat cunt Paul Shitty Staines, will have a cheap article with photos of Labour mp's supposedly laughing or something.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 27, 2014)

Penning asked by Kate Green why claimants not told and reported halt of WCA reassessments for two years to HoC Penning says they do not report ALL minutiae to HoC. ATOS crisis is minutiae... !!!???

Kate Green supports the WCA by the way.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

Kate Green also claims Rachel Reeves didn't say she'd be tougher on claimants but on welfare spending (which is surely splitting hairs). 

I wasn't impressed by her stupidity at all.

Skinner was fucking awesome.


----------



## treelover (Feb 27, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> #wowdebate2014
> 
> there's about 4 people in the house.
> 
> FOR FUCKS SAKE!


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 27, 2014)

Hansard of the debate.

Dennis Skinner.



> Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab):
> Just after 1970, when I was first elected, I remember speaking in a debate about social security with Sir Keith Joseph, the arch-right winger of the Heath days. We all believed at the time that he was going to hit the poor, and of course—in a marginal way, compared with today—he did. However, remarkably, in the Macmillan era and even the in Heath-Keith Joseph era, the welfare state was by and large a status quo. I have to say—I will probably never say it again—that even in the Thatcher years this chaos did not happen. She did a lot of things—she privatised all the public utilities, smashed the pits and all the rest of it—but, by and large, we never had capability assessments or a march by 3,000 blind and disabled people, which was what heralded the beginning of this coalition.
> 
> I had never seen such a march. I was on crutches at the time, having had a hip replacement, so I thought that as I qualified for the march, I had better get on it. Blind people were telling me then about what was likely to happen. I hardly believed them, but we now know the truth about the mess that has been created for the people I met at the Atos headquarters last Wednesday. It was not a trade union gathering; it was a different gathering altogether. There were more wheelchairs than there were police. Fancy speaking to a crowd of 70 to 100 people surrounded by wheelchairs. Those people had been crippled for years. Like my constituent, David Cowpe, many of them had been turned down after their work capability assessment, although they were too disabled even to get out of their wheelchair without help.
> ...


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 27, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Hansard of the debate.


i'm not entirely sure what happens next. any idea? no record of votes for or against so is this simply a show of democracy that actually achieves sweet fuck all?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Hansard of the debate.
> 
> Dennis Skinner.


I'm not ashamed to admit that his performance brought a tear to me eye. 

Alan Reid's performance brought a fart to my arse.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i'm not entirely sure what happens next. any idea? no record of votes for or against so is this simply a show of democracy that actually achieves sweet fuck all?


I guess nothing; unless IDS decides to acquiesce, which he won't.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 27, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I guess nothing; unless IDS decides to acquiesce, which he won't.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 27, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i'm not entirely sure what happens next. any idea? no record of votes for or against so is this simply a show of democracy that actually achieves sweet fuck all?



Now that 'the Ayes had it' with no one against the motion it can go for further debate by the house and not just the backbenchers.

This was only the 100.000+ WOW .gov petition being picked up by John McDonnell and brought to the house.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 27, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Now that 'the Ayes had it' with no one against the motion it can go for further debate by the house and not just the backbenchers.
> 
> This was only the 100.000+ WOW .gov petition being picked up by John McDonnell and brought to the house.


ta


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

So everyone else was out because Merkel was in town?

Nice timing....


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

I wonder what bullshit excuse my mp will give for not attending. Probably busy fellating a local businessman over a deal to turn some land into a piggery.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 27, 2014)

....and then they came for the P/T workers...



> *DWP: Housing benefit will be sanctioned*
> 27 February 2014
> 
> Part-time workers judged to be doing too little to find full-time work face having their benefit for housing costs sanctioned by the government for the first time under universal credit.
> ...



http://m.insidehousing.co.uk/dwp-housing-benefit-will-be-sanctioned/7002330.article


----------



## treelover (Feb 28, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Hansard of the debate.
> 
> Dennis Skinner.




Skinner lost his way a bit during the Blair years and I don't think he spoke out enough when the first N/L reforms came in, but that is just superb.


----------



## treelover (Feb 28, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> ....and then they came for the P/T workers...
> 
> 
> 
> http://m.insidehousing.co.uk/dwp-housing-benefit-will-be-sanctioned/7002330.article



That is terrifying, people have just about survived on sanctions, etc knowing they will still have a roof above their head, now this, I don't think this happened anywhere else in the western world, they are socipaths, this must be challenged in the courts.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 28, 2014)

It won't happen because Universal Credit is a clusterfuck which is going to be dropped *prays hard*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 28, 2014)

Hope so...I was already hoping hard... *digs deeper


----------



## treelover (Feb 28, 2014)

So, people who are already being penalised under the flexible labour market and who have done the right thing and signed off and maybe scrimping along are now going to be crucified, ffs.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 28, 2014)

If it does come in, an awful lot of people who thought they were safely in the 'us' camp are going to find out they're actually in the 'them' camp after all.


----------



## treelover (Feb 28, 2014)

Yes, my neighbours are all PT workers who receive some HB, in fact most young people I know are in this position.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 28, 2014)

I'm in this position myself. And I'm not young anymore.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 28, 2014)

treelover said:


> Yes, my neighbours are all PT workers who receive some HB, in fact most young people I know are in this position.



Not many people I know who work PT are that smug tbh. Most are actually working PT because they can't secure FT hours.


----------



## treelover (Feb 28, 2014)

That's what I meant, they have had to take PT jobs, but the media hardly mentions this.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 28, 2014)

This will probably also apply to self employed people not making much and claiming tax credits, child tax credits, HB/CT too.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 28, 2014)

to be honest, i thought it had been known for some time that (under universal credit) anyone receiving in-work benefits will have to jump through the 'actively seeking and available for (more / better paid) work' hoops.

hence the potential for sanctions for 'I couldn't come and sign on, I had to stay late at work' and so on...

And 



> A government minister has apologised after it emerged that a Whitehall department sent letters to a woman demanding she make an effort to find work even though she was in a coma.[QUOTE]
> 
> story (guardian) here


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 28, 2014)

This harassment is a direct assault on HB/CT where if someone is working less than 35 hrs a week and doesn't qualify for any other help but HB/CT then their HB/CT will be sanctioned. 

From Respect for the Unemployed and Benefit Claimants on Facebook. 



> They call it #Austerity ... we call it #PlannedPoverty - pictured - is our home / office in Muirhouse in Edinburgh
> Muirhouse Living Memories
> 
> Now the nightmare get worse #HousingBenefit will be#sanctioned says: Department for Work and Pensions - DWP
> ...


----------



## bywhacky (Feb 28, 2014)

ah now we know why mass immigration is allowed - cheap labour with multiple occupancy of the houses lost by those unable to pay rent as cannot secure f/t hours or enough hours work to pay it and loose benefits under latest sanctions - result for landlords as 10 plus folk living in house with 3 beds will pay more rent in total and business owners pay less wages again,

Or am I just been far too cynical


----------



## existentialist (Feb 28, 2014)

bywhacky said:


> ah now we know why mass immigration is allowed


I always thought that the notion that "mass immigration" was allowed was a trope of Daily Mail editorials and far-right loonies.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2014)

saw a headline in the oxford mail today saying someone starved to death coz of cuts in benefits


----------



## bywhacky (Feb 28, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> saw a headline in the oxford mail today saying someone starved to death coz of cuts in benefits



here is the report 
http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/11043378.Man_starved_after_benefits_were_cut/

A ‘vulnerable and fragile’ man starved to death four months after most of his benefits were stopped and he was left with just £40 a week to survive on.

Atos Healthcare – which assesses peoples’ ability to work on behalf of the Government’s Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) – ruled the 44-year-old Mark Wood from Bampton was fit to work.

But at an inquest into his death, Oxford Coroners Court heard testimony that Mr Wood was far from fit to hold down a job.

Weighing just 5st 8lbs when he died of malnutrition in August last year, Mr Wood had obsessive compulsive disorder, Aspergers syndrome, phobias of food, pollution, paint fumes, and social situations, and cognitive behavioural problems.
His GP Nicolas Ward told yesterday’s proceedings: “He was an extremely vulnerable and fragile individual who was coping with life.

“Something pushed him or affected him in the time before he died and the only thing I can put my finger on is the pressure he felt he was under when his benefits were removed.”

Dr Ward, from Bampton Medical Practice, said he had not been contacted by either Atos or DWP about Mr Wood’s medical history, and revealed that if they had asked for his professional opinion he would have said Mr Wood was unfit for work. Mr Wood had been receiving housing benefit, employment and support allowance, and disability living allowance of £40 a week and had been living independently since 2006. But in January last year Atos Healthcare ruled that Mr Wood was healthy and able to work. Following its assessment, in about April last year, Mr Wood’s housing benefits and employment support allowance were stopped by the DWP, leaving just the disability allowance.


----------



## treelover (Feb 28, 2014)

can't wait till March when the U.N Rapporteur makes her report public to the council,

btw, thousands have protested(rightly) against the EDL, who are seen as a future threat, but here are people dying everyday as a direct consequence of Govt 'reforms' yet the response is minimal, the recent ATOS protests being mostly claimants themselves and a few allies, are they sleepwalking? I find this both baffling and yes, disgusting.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> ....and then they came for the P/T workers...
> 
> 
> 
> http://m.insidehousing.co.uk/dwp-housing-benefit-will-be-sanctioned/7002330.article




If the coalition do this, it'll be the most tactically-unsound move yet - they'll alienate elements of the "swing" voters that they'll be relying on come May 2015.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2014)

treelover said:


> So, people who are already being penalised under the flexible labour market and who have done the right thing and signed off and maybe scrimping along are now going to be crucified, ffs.



It's not as if no-one saw this coming.  Our glorious chancellor made clear that he'd like the economy to be similar to China's in terms of worker insecurity and pay.  This just adds to the load by which he'll try to achieve his aim - workers who'll have to scrabble desperately to reach their quota of hours, and allow themselves to be submitted to any indignity in order to stave off a sanction.

I hope the complacent fucks at the TUC are paying attention.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2014)

weepiper said:


> If it does come in, an awful lot of people who thought they were safely in the 'us' camp are going to find out they're actually in the 'them' camp after all.



Quite.  They'll be nailing themselves out of quite a few of their rural strongholds with this.  They seem to forget that even in "wealthy" rural constituencies, the backbone of their vote are not the wealthy, but the rural non-wealthy - the poor and the "squeezed middle".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2014)

bywhacky said:


> ah now we know why mass immigration is allowed - cheap labour with multiple occupancy of the houses lost by those unable to pay rent as cannot secure f/t hours or enough hours work to pay it and loose benefits under latest sanctions - result for landlords as 10 plus folk living in house with 3 beds will pay more rent in total and business owners pay less wages again,
> 
> Or am I just been far too cynical



You're not cynical.

A moron, but not cynical.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 28, 2014)

treelover said:


> can't wait till March when the U.N Rapporteur makes her report public to the council,
> 
> btw, thousands have protested(rightly) against the EDL, who are seen as a future threat, but here are people dying everyday as a direct consequence of Govt 'reforms' yet the response is minimal, the recent ATOS protests being mostly claimants themselves and a few allies, are they sleepwalking? I find this both baffling and yes, disgusting.



This one..


Report of the Special Rapporteur on adequate housing as a 
component of the right to an adequate standard of living, 
and on the right to non-discrimination in this context, 
Raquel Rolnik 
 Addendum 
 Mission to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland*


----------



## Libertad (Feb 28, 2014)

Thanks Frankie Jack , required reading for later.


----------



## SikhWarrioR (Feb 28, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> saw a headline in the oxford mail today saying someone starved to death coz of cuts in benefits




That article is already doing the rounds on Twitter


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 28, 2014)

weepiper said:


> It won't happen because Universal Credit is a clusterfuck which is going to be dropped *prays hard*





bywhacky said:


> here is the report
> http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/11043378.Man_starved_after_benefits_were_cut/
> 
> A ‘vulnerable and fragile’ man starved to death four months after most of his benefits were stopped and he was left with just £40 a week to survive on.
> ...





> His GP Nicolas Ward told yesterday’s proceedings: “He was an extremely vulnerable and fragile individual who was coping with life.


Correction: he was not coping with life, as is patently clear.

This GP is surprised ATOS didn't contact him; this is part of the problem. GP's do not have a due what is going on. Many, in fact (IMHO), don't seem terribly bothered. I think they assume ATOS is stated by experienced professionals and that it's to be trusted.


----------



## Libertad (Feb 28, 2014)

The Special Rapporteur's report is damning of the UK's housing provision as it stands and as it has developed since Right to Buy.
With regards to welfare reform and its effect on social housing she recommends on page 20, Section VII, Para 80 a and b:



> 80. In light of these conclusions, the Special Rapporteur wishes to make the following recommendations to the central Government and devolved administrations, as applicable:
> (a) Assess and evaluate the impact of the welfare reform in relation to the right to adequate housing of the most vulnerable individuals and groups, in light of existing data and evidence; consider whether particular measures are having a disproportionate impact on specific groups; assess whether the overall costs of the implementation of some reforms might outweigh the savings intended, thereby violating the State’s obligation to use the maximum of available resources; and consider alternative avenues to achieve similar objectives without affecting the poorest or most vulnerable;
> 
> (b) In particular, the removal of the spare-room subsidy should be suspended immediately and be fully re-evaluated in light of the evidence of its negative impacts on the right to adequate housing and general well-being of many vulnerable individuals and households;



Whether the present government will act upon any of her recommendations is doubtful.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 28, 2014)

this group in Cardiff do free tea and coffee outside jobcentres and let claimants know their rights
they get grief from DWP employees and security staff
http://cardiffteatent.wordpress.com/







Welsh bits read
Tea and Coffee for free
and sometimes cakes
in unity with benefit claimants

benefit information
and much more
people before profit
no to sanctions / no to workfare


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Mar 1, 2014)

Is this good news or not? I suppose it is in a sense that it keeps the pressure up. In another sense though does it mean anything? It says:



> MP John McDonnell called for the government to “commission an independent cumulative assessment of the impact of changes in the welfare system on sick and disabled people, their families and carers”.  By a majority, the motion was passed.



What does that actually mean though? Does it mean that the government will actually commission such a review because the motion passed? Or is the only motion that's passed is 'yes I agree, the government should do carry out a review?'


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Mar 1, 2014)

Ah nevermind I found the answer .


----------



## treelover (Mar 3, 2014)

> Reverend Dr Keith Hebden to fast for 40 days and nights in solidarity with hungry Britons using foodbanks
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/r...h-hungry-britons-using-foodbanks-9154318.html






> The Reverend’s emotive campaign comes in stark contrast to the assertions of Lord Carey, the former archbishop of Canterbury, who in The Times on Tuesday wrote *that it was too “simplistic” to blame increased poverty on welfare cuts and suggested that the rise in foodbank use could in some parts be attributed to people not having lessons in how to cook properly*.




meanwhile


----------



## treelover (Mar 3, 2014)

Panorama, 'hungry britain'

8.30pm

on foodbanks


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 3, 2014)

treelover said:


> meanwhile


Not knowing how to cook? What the fuck? Fuck you Carey, burn in hell you steaming shitwizard.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 3, 2014)

treelover said:


> meanwhile



There's a reason Carey was the least popular archbish of Canterbury - it's because he was a self-satisfied right-wing fuck who made excuses for Thatcher.
So it's no surprise he's making fatuous excuses for the results of neoliberalism.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 3, 2014)

http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/201...tre-a-few-feet-away-doing-absolutely-nothing/

Heartbreaking.


----------



## Libertad (Mar 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/201...tre-a-few-feet-away-doing-absolutely-nothing/
> 
> Heartbreaking.



Yes, yes it is. When I read of yet another injustice having been inflicted on some unsuspecting unfortunate I think of the people I know and perhaps of myself and my little family who are just one vicious pen-stroke away from penury. We are the precariat and we are helpless in the face of such bureaucratic malevolence.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Mar 3, 2014)

Kate Belgrave has been outside Jobcentres talking to people.



> Over the last few weeks, I’ve spent time outside jobcentres with the Kilburn Unemployed Workers Group talking with people who are on JSA about their experiences. We’ve been talking about sanctions, about the realities of trying to find work with jobcentres (a month in and I have yet to speak to anyone who has) and about having to fall into line on all fronts or risk having your benefits cut. Am posting transcripts from those discussions here as I work on a bigger project.
> 
> Last week, we went to the Lisson Grove jobcentre at Marylebone – a jobcentre that quite a few people we’ve spoken to seem to dislike intensely. Once again, we talked to people who were tired, angry and sick of the whole JSA regime. Don’t forget that the only crime people have committed here is being unemployed. Anyone could end up in that situation.




http://www.katebelgrave.com/2014/03...th-sanctions-more-stories-from-the-jobcentre/


----------



## treelover (Mar 3, 2014)

There was a doc about poverty in the U.S, it was mostly about how Reagan had closed the asylums, etc, under his 'care in the community' regime, then how he starved the programme of funds, same thing has happened here, first many mentally ill people were forced out of institutions, then over time CITC has been cut and restructured, now the living expenses people need to survive has been cut, but much worse, people are being bullied, hassled and basically humiliated.

btw, not defending institutions, just describing what has happened since.


----------



## treelover (Mar 3, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Kate Belgrave has been outside Jobcentres talking to people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



she is great, surprised Newsnight haven't employed her.

btw, the BBC Panorama on Food banks had some good parts though Currie featured prominently.


----------



## treelover (Mar 4, 2014)

> Here is something i wrote immediately after my latest encounter with the DWP.
> Just sat in front of someone, asking them if they knew the law on how many steps required by a citizen to be classed as actively seeking work, ---- (Refused to give his last name) @ Stafford jobcentre said he didn't know. He's sanctioning people and he doesn't know the law, because according to him he "doesn't need to know". I tried reading him the law out loud, the response to which was to call security over.
> Also apparently my only living allowance has now been permanently suspended also, because i refused to sign a jobseekers agreement, mandating/forcing me to sign up for universal jobmatch, for the reasons i've detailed before. (Monster being an american corporation, which have all been proven to be compromised by the NSA, and how i won't render my personal information to a foreign nation state, by proxy or otherwise.)
> I am a political dissident of this regime in this country, where my ability to exist has been removed, and will be doing everything in my power to see that these injustices are brought to light.
> ...




someone posted this on CIF, has he got a case?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 4, 2014)

treelover said:


> someone posted this on CIF, has he got a case?



As I understand it, one can refuse to sign what they now call a Çlaimant Commitment' and it gets referred to a decision maker. I suspect that during this period they would argue that, without a completed CC, your claim isn't complete and so aren't entitled to any money. In other words: you can refuse to sign, but it delays completing your claim. I'm not sure how refusal per se can be sanctionable, but the DWP has become trigger happy. I suspect they would argue that the individual ís not doing all he can to look for work'. That's their get out clause to jusify any punitive action.

I doubt the individual has a leg to stand on, even if his reasons for refusing to ign the CC are legitimate (and in the eyes of he DWP they won't be), simply because the DWP control the purse strings. He could hold out but can he financially afford it? Who knows how long it will take the decision maker?

This is why I am do sigusted with the PCS. The local Socialist Party rep told me the PCS are generally good guys (which may be the case locally), and they have been on strike a lot over the last few years, but noone shows them solidarity. I don't know about that, but I do know that the PCS has members that are enacting this regime at the DWP. I get they include members fearful of their own jobs, but if this isn't enough for the leadership of the PCS to call a ballot at least - what is the point of them. That would be a decision enacted at leadership level and shouldn't put any individual at risk.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 4, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/201...tre-a-few-feet-away-doing-absolutely-nothing/
> 
> Heartbreaking.



And engineered to be exactly that, given the tight bounds (and sanction quotas) imposed on DWP staff.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 4, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> As I understand it, one can refuse to sign what they now call a Çlaimant Commitment' and it gets referred to a decision maker. I suspect that during this period they would argue that, without a completed CC, your claim isn't complete and so aren't entitled to any money. In other words: you can refuse to sign, but it delays completing your claim. I'm not sure how refusal per se can be sanctionable, but the DWP has become trigger happy. I suspect they would argue that the individual ís not doing all he can to look for work'. That's their get out clause to jusify any punitive action.
> 
> I doubt the individual has a leg to stand on, even if his reasons for refusing to ign the CC are legitimate (and in the eyes of he DWP they won't be), simply because the DWP control the purse strings. He could hold out but can he financially afford it? Who knows how long it will take the decision maker?
> 
> This is why I am do sigusted with the PCS. The local Socialist Party rep told me the PCS are generally good guys (which may be the case locally), and they have been on strike a lot over the last few years, but noone shows them solidarity. I don't know about that, but I do know that the PCS has members that are enacting this regime at the DWP. I get they include members fearful of their own jobs, but if this isn't enough for the leadership of the PCS to call a ballot at least - what is the point of them. That would be a decision enacted at leadership level and shouldn't put any individual at risk.



Put simply, I'm not sure that the PCS can afford to fight a war on two fronts, and if they get heavily involved in supporting claimants against attacks, they may well worry that they'll drop the ball with regard to the ongoing purges staff reduction programmes being levelled against their members at DWP and HMRC.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Put simply, I'm not sure that the PCS can afford to fight a war on two fronts, and if they get heavily involved in supporting claimants against attacks, they may well worry that they'll drop the ball with regard to the ongoing purges staff reduction programmes being levelled against their members at DWP and HMRC.


It's not even supporting claimants. It's simply not being a trigger happy goon. Sanctioning people for being absent because they attended a funeral? That can't be in the rules.

If they won't make a stand, then, frankly, what's the point of them?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 4, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> It's not even supporting claimants. It's simply not being a trigger happy goon. Sanctioning people for being absent because they attended a funeral? That can't be in the rules.
> 
> If they won't make a stand, then, frankly, what's the point of them?



What's the point of any union?
I hate to tell you (as you've obviously not been apprised of this important information before now), but unions exist *first and foremost* to secure the interests of their membership, *not* the interests of their membership's customer/client base.  ANy political activity beyond that will always be ancillary to protecting the membership.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 4, 2014)

I've never had any dealings with unions.

But it will be in the interests of their members if claimants get even more desperate...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 4, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I've never had any dealings with unions.
> 
> But it will be in the interests of their members if claimants get even more desperate...



You've had no dealings with them, yet you feel qualified to tell them what actions might be in the interests of their members?
Well done, that man! 
Don't you get it?  The membership, like the union, are between a rock and a hard place.  They're looking down the barrel of another ten to thirty thousand compulsory redundancies.  As is usual when large employers are looking to "lose" staff, management are pouncing on every tiny disciplinary or procedural infraction, and attempting to use those issues to lever people out of their jobs with out having to pay redundancy. Very few workers are going to stick their necks out beyond what they already do, because frankly they want to keep their jobs as long as possible.  Working in a job that destroys your soul still seems better to many people than being on the other side of the jobcentre counter.  All this has been very obviously the case for the last 3+ years.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Mar 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Put simply, I'm not sure that the PCS can afford to fight a war on two fronts, and if they get heavily involved in supporting claimants against attacks, they may well worry that they'll drop the ball with regard to the ongoing purges staff reduction programmes being levelled against their members at DWP and HMRC.


Our lives v their jobs. No contest innit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 4, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Our lives v their jobs. No contest innit.



Sadly, all too often there isn't any contest. 
Problem is, we've been progressively-indoctrinated, since Thatcher, to become more self-interested and individualistic, so the attitude of "fuck you Jack, I'm alright" is far more prevalent these days than it was when Peter Sellers was in "I'm Alright Jack!" back in 1959.  It's horrific, but some state employees really do believe that if they step out of line, then they'll put themselves in the same boat as us.  As they know from their experience sitting across the counter from claimants, it isn't a bed of roses.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Mar 4, 2014)

Agreed. Most of my JC advisers are reasonably fair it has to be said and I've managed to get out of signing up to UJM so far by stating all the valid reasons for not using the vile site. I'm expecting a sanction quite soon though as there's only so long any of us can escape one in this area with around 100 sanction hit each week  out of 2000 or so claimants. 

Four ex-JC+ staff from my local one now working with the area Work Provider, Ingeus, in the Glasgow office.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You've had no dealings with them, yet you feel qualified to tell them what actions might be in the interests of their members?
> Well done, that man!
> Don't you get it?  The membership, like the union, are between a rock and a hard place.  They're looking down the barrel of another ten to thirty thousand compulsory redundancies.  As is usual when large employers are looking to "lose" staff, management are pouncing on every tiny disciplinary or procedural infraction, and attempting to use those issues to lever people out of their jobs with out having to pay redundancy. Very few workers are going to stick their necks out beyond what they already do, because frankly they want to keep their jobs as long as possible.  Working in a job that destroys your soul still seems better to many people than being on the other side of the jobcentre counter.  All this has been very obviously the case for the last 3+ years.



Yes, I do 'get it', I'm not fucking stupid. 

We are witness to a situation of asolute crisis and I am suggesting the PCS do something. I'm well aware that their jobs are on the line, but that isn't going to get any better any time soon is it? Is Labour likely to usher in a fresher regime under 'tougher than the tories ' Rachel Reeves?

So either PCS members sit back and keep their heads down while administering these sorts of decisions or someone, somewhere, somehow, in that organisation says something. What other choices are there? I'm not advocating any individual adviser get up and shout 'fight the power!' before getting disciplined and perhaps sacked. I'm suggesting the PCS leadership take a stand. If they ballot then members can vote in secret without their managers knowing, if they are worried voting might mark them. That way the leadership can keep members safe. Even IDS won't sacke the entire PCS contingent of the DWP en masse. Surely that, at the very least, is a start?

If not, what's the alternative? The misery continues - for everyone. The staff keep their heads down trying to sruvive a climate of fear that is certainly only going to get worse while claimants end up increasingly desperate and resorting to violence toward staff. 

I realise it is easy to say, but I'm not a member of the PCS nor a DWP staffer, I am just giving my opinion and I am perfectly entitled to do so. All I know is that something somewhere will have to give. I don't want anyone to get fired, but which is worse: someone in the DWP loses their job, or someone already in financial dire straits starves to death. That's the cold hard reality. The situation is already at crisis point and it wont' get any better, we have yet to see Universal Credit come in, or mass workfare, or barely any of the changes to the public sector. If we get another term of this coalition or heaven forfend a pure tory government it's going to make today look like the sound of fucking music!


----------



## ddraig (Mar 4, 2014)

so you don't 'get it' still


----------



## Frankie Jack (Mar 4, 2014)

Scotland is facing a ‘humanitarian crisis’ caused by poverty

As this is only an estimate I believe the real figures possibly work out to around 20% of the population, 5.2 million at last count. 

Oh and yeah. I'm one of them. 


> The group estimated more than 870,000 people are living in poverty as it launched a new appeal to raise awareness of the problem.
> 
> The Scotland’s Outlook campaign said a fifth of children are living below the breadline and highlighted figures showing that 23,000 people turned to food banks to feed themselves in the last six months.
> 
> A “perfect storm” caused by welfare reform, low wages, soaring bills, job insecurity and rising living costs had contributed to the scale of the problem, the campaign said.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 4, 2014)

ddraig said:


> so you don't 'get it' still


Get what? That i don't want people to lose their jobs. I've just said as much. 

What's your solution then? What do you suggest?


----------



## ddraig (Mar 4, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Get what? That i don't want people to lose their jobs. I've just said as much.
> 
> What's your solution then? What do you suggest?


no you don't get what has just been explained to you by VP
saying you've never had dealings with unions then expecting them to do something for those who are non members is a bit daft no? it would be great if it could happen but it won't so is not a solution


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

ddraig said:


> no you don't get what has just been explained to you by VP
> saying you've never had dealings with unions then expecting them to do something for those who are non members is a bit daft no? it would be great if it could happen but it won't so is not a solution



I think you're missing the point: the environment in the DWP is toxic which means that it's a horrible place for these people to work - assuming they don't enjoy treating the claimants as they now seem to be doing (some probably do but then they would never help claimants anyway). This is not just about helping people that have no affiliation to the union, it's about helping themsles. By fighting IDS's ridiculous regime they make their own jobs more secure and they improve their working environment. That's a win win for everyonte. 

If you're working in a system that puts your own job at risk unless you dish out sanctions according to target then it's in your own interests to see that regime changed just as it is for the victims of those targets.

Or nothing changes and everyone involved suffers, and will suffer evenmore whenuniversal Credit comes in which will exacerbate the current delays and backlogs to breaking point (and beyond).


----------



## ddraig (Mar 5, 2014)

very valiant and even "_If you're working in a system that puts your own job at risk unless you dish out sanctions according to target then it's in your own interests to see that regime changed just as it is for the victims of those targets._" is true what do you think they should do?

"_Or nothing changes and everyone involved suffers, and will suffer evenmore whenuniversal Credit comes in which will exacerbate the current delays and backlogs to breaking point (and beyond)._"
welcome to trade unionism in the uk for the vast majority

lots of work places are toxic, unions are generally ineffective and the bosses know this. people are desperate and as someone said however shit their job is they are thanking their 'lucky' stars that they are that side of the desk so that they can feed and house themselves and their family and not subjected to the hoops and bullshit they have to put the people they see through. and if 1/5/10 people working in a job centre make a stand, what happens when the other 50/100/200 look the other way, will not stand or don't feel they can risk standing alongside their colleagues?

i'm sorry it is not the way you want it to be and think it should be.
I wish there was more solidarity and action but from experience there is very little and everything is set up against those that do try, even people on the same side.

e2a-finished sentence


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

This isn't about what "i" want nor how "i" think is should be. This is about what we all want.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 5, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I think you're missing the point: the environment in the DWP is toxic which means that it's a horrible place for these people to work - assuming they don't enjoy treating the claimants as they now seem to be doing (some probably do but then they would never help claimants anyway). This is not just about helping people that have no affiliation to the union, it's about helping themsles. By fighting IDS's ridiculous regime they make their own jobs more secure and they improve their working environment. That's a win win for everyonte.



Disciplinary infractions are being cracked down on unmercifully.  This includes not meeting sanction "not-targets" w/r/t front-office staff, but includes minor stuff like a manager deciding you're taking too many toilet breaks - Reasons for initiating a disciplinary process and taking it all the way to dismissal are being fished for.
Following on from said disciplinary action, how do you think a dismissal from the Civil Service looks on someone's employment record? Well, it's pretty much a death knell as far as getting a decent job is concerned - in the current climate, a death knell on getting any sort of job.  You won't be as much of a leper as a former convict, but close enough.
There's no security to be found in fighting the regime.  Labour isn't going to magically reverse all the redundancies, take on loads of new staff and enforce decent working standards - they initiated a lot of the cultural changes in the CS that have facilitated people being ridden over roughshod.



> If you're working in a system that puts your own job at risk unless you dish out sanctions according to target then it's in your own interests to see that regime changed just as it is for the victims of those targets.
> 
> Or nothing changes and everyone involved suffers, and will suffer evenmore whenuniversal Credit comes in which will exacerbate the current delays and backlogs to breaking point (and beyond).



It's great to think compassionately about your fellow humans.  It's difficult to do so, though, when the line between the victims and yourself is so thin it's almost invisible.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 5, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> This isn't about what "i" want nor how "i" think is should be. This is about what we all want.


really? why do you think that? it is easy to be fooled that "everyone" is disgusted by the treatment of those on welfare and that it needs to be stopped but they are not and some want it to go further.

you may think that and sorry to piss on your fire again but it is not "what we all want". it is what you want, i want, people on this thread etc want but a lot of people don't give a shit, they are ok. a lot of people have bought the governments shit about benefit claimants and a whole load more have lapped up the media portrayal.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 5, 2014)

i honestly don't mean to patronise Awesome Wells but can i ask how old you are and what kind of work you have done if lucky to have had employment? thanks


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 5, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> This isn't about what "i" want nor how "i" think is should be. This is about what we all want.



As a former union rep, I can say with some certainty that your "we" isn't as all-encompassing as you believe.  In fact experience tells me that even during crisis, a majority of union members are in survival mode - they keep their heads down and do their best not to get involved with ANY workplace politics, because workplace politics (and union activism in general) gets you noticed.  People may "want" things to change, but they won't engage in helping bring change about, because they still believe they've got too much to lose; that bad things will happen to others, but not to them.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

Is this picture representative across the entire UK or just Scotland?



> Dr David Webster described the latest figures as "sensational" as they show nearly nine in 10 of those who challenge decisions to stop benefits at a tribunal now have their appeal upheld. However only a few of those who are "sanctioned" by having their payments stopped ever appeal





> The Work Programme may be finding work for some, but it is also fuelling the sanctions regime, Dr Webster says. "To date, Work Programme contractors have been responsible for twice as many sanctions on the people referred to them as they have produced 'job outcomes' - a job placement which lasts for a certain minimum period."
> 
> The comparison shows that across the UK, the firms contracted to run the Work Programme have delivered 198,750 such job outcomes, but made referrals resulting in 394,759 sanctions, the academic's figures show. This might be even higher, but the figures also show that about 30,000 sanctions decisions for people on the programme are cancelled every month - most usually because the paperwork for the referral has not been properly completed.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

ddraig said:


> i honestly don't mean to patronise Awesome Wells but can i ask how old you are and what kind of work you have done if lucky to have had employment? thanks


Why?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> As a former union rep, I can say with some certainty that your "we" isn't as all-encompassing as you believe.  In fact experience tells me that even during crisis, a majority of union members are in survival mode - they keep their heads down and do their best not to get involved with ANY workplace politics, because workplace politics (and union activism in general) gets you noticed.  People may "want" things to change, but they won't engage in helping bring change about, because they still believe they've got too much to lose; that bad things will happen to others, but not to them.



Again, I am not suggesting that the PCS leadership _tell_ their members what to do. I said to just vote on it at least that would be something. If they all vote against it, for reasons of job security or whatever, then that's entirely legitimiate, if disappointing. 

I understand why people are cynical. I understand that not all members would support strike action, but there doesn't even seem to be any impetus to do anything. Consequently the environment will remain toxic and only get worse.

Being in survival mode is one thing, but how long can that last? Until the next election? Ok, then what? What happens if Labour doesn't win the next election?

What happens if it does?


----------



## ddraig (Mar 5, 2014)

what do you think is going to happen?? nothing
things don't _change _in "democracies" when another of the major parties get in
ever heard the phrase "if voting changed anything they'd ban it" ?
there may be experts, doctors, the united nations etc all saying "cuts are bad mkay" etc but they are still happening
it is ideological

and if you think union members will awaken if labour got in and things will magically start improving then you are seriously naiive


----------



## ddraig (Mar 5, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Why?


context


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

ddraig said:


> context


You'll have to do better than that. What does my background have to do with anything?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

ddraig said:


> what do you think is going to happen?? nothing
> things don't _change _in "democracies" when another of the major parties get in
> ever heard the phrase "if voting changed anything they'd ban it" ?
> there may be experts, doctors, the united nations etc all saying "cuts are bad mkay" etc but they are still happening
> ...



Can you please stop patronising me.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 5, 2014)

stop being so simplistic then
and i don't have to anything
i have tried in my slightly clumsy grumpy old git way, good luck with your expectations, let me know if you convince a trade union to take any meaningful action, i will kiss you feet with joy


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

I never said the unions would take action. 

For the third time, all I suggested was they vote on it. My expressing this is not contingent on it's likelihood.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 5, 2014)

so what kind of solution is that? how is that going to advance things?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

I've no idea what would happen if the PCS went on strike. Maybe nothing. Maybe something.

What else do you suggest?


----------



## ddraig (Mar 5, 2014)

so after people have taken time to explain to you why your rash expectations of unions won't work you now expect people to give you solutions too?
i don't claim to have them, very sorry...

maybe join local anti cuts group - some of them have had some success in some areas
maybe join or start a local campaign to help people have access to correct info and their rights to welfare?
accompany people to their sanction meetings to provide support and be a witness?
volunteer at a food bank?
start a food not bombs/free food and info stall for the homeless, hungry and destitute if one not already running?
write to various people and turn up at meetings asking searching questions, pointing out what effect it is having and what they are doing to mitigate the effects?
expose the voting record of shameful mp's and councillors to their potential voters?

or you could have one half baked idea based on something you don't really understand the (crap) working of and then start chucking your toys out of the pram when people explain the flaws and beg to disagree with you

is getting union members in job centres to take strike action in solidarity with claimants honestly your only brainwave?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

I don't want to get into an interweb bunfight about this, it's stupid. We are all on the same side against this cancer of a government. BUt something has to be done otherwise people really will start to turn on each other - including more cases of claimant vs adviser violence. This helps noone.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

ddraig said:


> so after people have taken time to explain to you why your rash expectations of unions won't work you now expect people to give you solutions too?
> i don't claim to have them, very sorry...


Why are you so angry?

My suggesting something on a message board doesn't preclude or prevent any other form of action.


----------



## Fanshen (Mar 5, 2014)

Hi all,
I've been reading/lurking here for a bit over a year (belated thanks for the SWP thread, you helped convince me I wasn't being irrational or failing by choosing to quit). 

So I thought I'd join because I found an interesting tidbit that I haven't seen picked up anywhere that seemed relevant for this thread. I bought the Financial Times on Feb 23rd to see if there was more information about Ukraine from over the weekend (read the enemy & all that). Not something I normally do but was getting frustrated.

Anyway, while it wasn't so enlightening on that front, in one of the supplement bits there was an article titled _'L&G plans to begin lending to larger SMEs'_. It's an article based on an interview with the chief exec of Legal & General, about lending to small businesses and the like. But, tucked away in the last paragraphs, was this:



> Separately, Mr Wilson also said L&G was in talks to set up a private sector alternative to UK government welfare provision.
> 
> The group is talking to government ministers over how to launch an insurance scheme that would make payments to employees if they fell on hard times. Employees would be signed up unless they consciously opted out, following the model of recently-introduced "auto-enrolment" pensions.



Not sure how that fits with Universal credit - as a complement? their 'Plan B'? I thought it might be worth the mention anyway.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 5, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Again, I am not suggesting that the PCS leadership _tell_ their members what to do. I said to just vote on it at least that would be something. If they all vote against it, for reasons of job security or whatever, then that's entirely legitimiate, if disappointing.
> 
> I understand why people are cynical. I understand that not all members would support strike action, but there doesn't even seem to be any impetus to do anything. Consequently the environment will remain toxic and only get worse.
> 
> ...



Are you cognisant of the hoops that have to be jumped through in order to bring a motion to a ballot?
First you need a decent motion, preferably proposed and accepted at conference.
Then you need the national executive to fall behind it.
You then have to run it past the lawyers to make it as "fireproof" as possible from govt interference.
Next you ballot your members...if you're lucky you'll get a 40-50% return rate.

And all the while, the government will have been bringing to bear many more resources than the union can afford, as well as firing up the "dirty tricks" machine.

I don't expect much of any union, because they foolishly allowed themselves to be hedged in legislatively post-Scargill, and there is no room for them to manouvre meaningfully anymore. One-day strikes?  Not exactly a fearsome tool against boss-class rapacity, is it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 5, 2014)

Fanshen said:


> Hi all,
> I've been reading/lurking here for a bit over a year (belated thanks for the SWP thread, you helped convince me I wasn't being irrational or failing by choosing to quit).
> 
> So I thought I'd join because I found an interesting tidbit that I haven't seen picked up anywhere that seemed relevant for this thread. I bought the Financial Times on Feb 23rd to see if there was more information about Ukraine from over the weekend (read the enemy & all that). Not something I normally do but was getting frustrated.
> ...



As I recall, some of the European states use programmes that are basically a collaboration between private insurance companies, the state, the employee and the employer as part of their social security systems, so there's political traction to be had with "the chattering classes" for something similar.
As to how it'd fit with Universal Credit, it won't.  I suspect the idea will be very much to cream off those who can afford additional provision, and to subject those who can't to the tender mercies of residualised state provision.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> As I recall, some of the European states use programmes that are basically a collaboration between private insurance companies, the state, the employee and the employer as part of their social security systems, so there's political traction to be had with "the chattering classes" for something similar.
> As to how it'd fit with Universal Credit, it won't.  I suspect the idea will be very much to cream off those who can afford additional provision, and to subject those who can't to the tender mercies of residualised state provision.



Possibly as a replacement for contributions based jsa/esa (I assume there's contributions based UC too)? Separating these would make it that little bit easier to demonise people who move onto UC afterwards, because if you've just someone who wants to work and has just been unfortunate to lose their job, you won't be on UC, you'll be on something else, therefore everyone on UC is a scrounging waster obviously.
Also a part privatisation of social security is something I'm sure they'd love to jump on anyway.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 5, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Possibly as a replacement for contributions based jsa/esa (I assume there's contributions based UC too)? <snip>


Not as far as I've heard.  Every benefit claimant of any kind whatsoever will be classed as a Universal Credit Claimant.  

Recipients of the state pension, carers in receipt of CA, working people who don't earn enough to cover their rent but qualify for Housing Benefit or Local Housing Allowance, people in receipt of Child Benefit - they'll all be under the umbrella of UC _and therefore sanctionable._


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are you cognisant of the hoops that have to be jumped through in order to bring a motion to a ballot?
> First you need a decent motion, preferably proposed and accepted at conference.
> Then you need the national executive to fall behind it.
> You then have to run it past the lawyers to make it as "fireproof" as possible from govt interference.
> ...


l do not pretend doing any of this is easy or that it is guaranteed to succed.

The only guarantee is that if nothing is done then nothing improves.

The kind of divisive cynicism, whether justified or not, seen in this discussion is what we will get more of if nothing charges, as people end up turning on each other because they can't fight the government.

I do not appreciate being subject to that, nor being portrayed as some spoilt petulant child just for advocating a particular course of action ( even though it was the other poster that behaved like this).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 6, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> l do not pretend doing any of this is easy or that it is guaranteed to succed.
> 
> The only guarantee is that if nothing is done then nothing improves.



Oh, I absolutely agree.

However, I'm looking at your "suggestions" not from the perspective of an activist, but from the perspective of the "average" worker who happens to be a trade union member.  Most TU members *aren't* activist in any way, shape or form.  They're everyday sloggers who just want an easy life.



> The kind of divisive cynicism, whether justified or not, seen in this discussion is what we will get more of if nothing charges, as people end up turning on each other because they can't fight the government.



Sorry, but your label of "divisive cynicism" is so inapt that it made me laugh. 
The biggest cause of failure in activism isn't cynicism, it's the setting of unrealistic goals.  When they're not attained they're more damaging to activism than even harsh cynicism is.  You see "divisive cynicism", I see "prevention of people getting their hopes up, when the inevitable crushing of those hopes will take them entirely away from *any* activism in the future".



> I do not appreciate being subject to that, nor being portrayed as some spoilt petulant child just for advocating a particular course of action ( even though it was the other poster that behaved like this).



Even though you've just pulled the "please miss, it wasn't me, it was him" gambit?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 6, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> However, I'm looking at your "suggestions" not from the perspective of an activist, but from the perspective of the "average" worker who happens to be a trade union member.  Most TU members *aren't* activist in any way, shape or form.  They're everyday sloggers who just want an easy life.



Obviously. This isn't news to me; it's not some secret I didn't know about. I get it.

What I'm trying to say is that they don't have an easy life. Their job is already in the dark lord's territory. If it were a case of not wanting to rock the boat for fear it would make things worse that would be one thing. But it's not - it's already at the point where the boat is leaking. Having to enact sanctions to target is proof of this, and it's going to get worse every day until something changes. How that changes is the purpose of this discussion, chewing me out for suggesting something is just ridiculous. We can have a discussion and that's fine, but I see no reason at all to be a patronising asshole about it. That's all; it's not chucking toys or having a fit of pique. It's just about being respectful since, I assume, most people in this discussion and on this forum, share the desire to see all this horror come to an end.

Calling for a vote doesn't also mean that members of the union have to support it either. Those that want their soupposedly easy life can vote no. That's their choice. But if the PCS cannot protect it's own interests then what's the point of it? I'm not just asking them to help claimants, I'm suggesting they call for a vote to strike to make their own lives easier, which in turn helps the claimants. That's all, and I do not see why that necessitates being spoken down to. I don't like it and it's totally uncalled for.



> Sorry, but your label of "divisive cynicism" is so inapt that it made me laugh.
> The biggest cause of failure in activism isn't cynicism, it's the setting of unrealistic goals.  When they're not attained they're more damaging to activism than even harsh cynicism is.  You see "divisive cynicism", I see "prevention of people getting their hopes up, when the inevitable crushing of those hopes will take them entirely away from *any* activism in the future".



I don't have experience of activism. I don't have experience of trade union membership. I've never said otherwise. I'm just someone who wants to see social justice. Suggesting the PCS call for a vote is not IMO unrealistic nor is it about getting people's hopes up at all. It's just a suggestion. What I'm talking about with divisive cycnisism isn't specifically even in reference to activism, it's about people taking their frustrations out on those that would otherwise be on their side. They don't have to be activists. They can be anyone who thinks that any course of action or any suggestion - and I can only make suggestions, I'm not Mark Serwotka - is unreasonable or unworkable who then, as the above poster did, takes it out on the person they are arguing with. How does stupid bickering and unplesantness help? I don't need to come here for that, there's plenty of that in the real world.



> Even though you've just pulled the "please miss, it wasn't me, it was him" gambit?



?

I was merely acknowledging you were not the one being rude.

I wasn't the one resorting to piss poor behaviour, I simply asked not to be talked down to. How is that in any way childish?


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## treelover (Mar 6, 2014)

> *After Benefits Street, it's another round of poverty porn – with added celebrity*
> A new BBC documentary looks set to be yet another dehumanising foray into poor people's lives
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/05/benefits-street-poverty-porn-celebrity-bbc



BBC have commissioned Love Productions(Benefits St) for a new benefits porn show, 'Rich Famous and Hungry'

there is something obscene about rich media folk at the BBC paid by our money, commissioning propaganda like this.

Having said that, Johnson on that Benefits Row programme was very robust in defence of people on benefits.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 6, 2014)

Who made 'Rich Famous ad Homeless', because that sounds like the same thing.

#DesperatePoorandExploited - but doesn't get a tv show without the presence of some 'celebrity'.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 8, 2014)

IDS does Bath.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 9, 2014)

According to this genius: whom you may recognise, people sanctioned can expect to have their case heard within 7 days and are automatically entitled to a hardship payment if they need it. Phew! Thats good then!


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## Greebo (Mar 9, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> According to this genius: whom you may recognise, people sanctioned can expect to have their case heard within 7 days and are automatically entitled to a hardship payment if they need it. Phew! Thats good then!



He's also denied all knowledge of sanction targets.  Why is my chin so itchy?


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 9, 2014)

He denies everything. If asked he'll probably deny he's even in the room. 

NAO, ONS, Catholic Church, Policy Exchange, all wrong. Everyone, wrong. Always. 

In an earlier part of the interview, trying to defend the Work Programme (again everyone, including the Select Committee, are all wrong), you can see his beady little eyes light up as he says "I can give you the exact figures", which he then proceeds to not give the exact figures.


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## treelover (Mar 10, 2014)

> Hey Priscilla, you can't be serious about this! Surely this is just a ridiculous figment of your imagination?
> Well no. In another part of government(local) where I live this has already happened A huge percentage of the parks and gardens dept of the local council were made redundant as a result of government cuts, most of them could not just walk into another job so they signed on, listing,as required their workplace experience and the type of work they'd like to go into ( surprise surprise lots of them said gardening) lo and behold they were sent on the mandatory work placement to help train them for new work. Where were they placed? why in the depleted parks department of the local council, doing their old jobs, but for JSA not real pay. The council were desperate to participate in "workplace training" as it got the job done without the expense. those that undertook the training were no longer on the unemployment list, so the government can claim that unemployment is falling and that councils can get by with the cuts. Tory Britain




Comments on Guardian CIF in an article about the DWP: looks like the U.S style workfare where almost immediately recently redundant council/city workers are made to do the same job for free is here, I wonder which council it is?


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## Dr Jon (Mar 12, 2014)

Thousands of people with mental health needs denied social care amid cuts

Yeah, just give 'em meds 'n' make 'em work


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 12, 2014)

Most Jobseeker Agreements ruled unlawful.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 13, 2014)

The problem with this ruling is that a) there is nothing that will stop an adviser from initiating a sanction - they don't for example, face the sack for doing so (or a sanction on their wages).

and b) it all comes down to the wording 'reasonable'. Even the 'more than 2 steps' (it used to be 3) is not as precise as it needs to be in light of this.

consequently anyone arguing the toss at the JC still has no real power.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 13, 2014)

Dr Jon said:


> Thousands of people with mental health needs denied social care amid cuts
> 
> Yeah, just give 'em meds 'n' make 'em work



What depresses me is that the people currently falling off the radar are, perforce, those who are most in need of help.  How do I make that out? Well, in the last 20 years social care provision has pretty much residualised into three core groups: The elderly; children and the most severely-incapacitated (mentally or physically).  This has meant that with each budget cut or spending review, each of those core groups has shrunk.  Add to that the extra expense incurred from the budget of commissioning rather than providing services (paying those hefty agency premiums), and this also shrinks the core groups, against all good sense.


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## Frankie Jack (Mar 16, 2014)

Hoofuckingray..!! £20m startup and £350k a month running costs to Monster for that garbage.

DWP plans to ditch ridiculed jobs website

The government has drawn up plans to scrap its official jobs website, Universal Jobmatch, after recognising it is too expensive and that its purpose is undermined by fake and repeat job entries, according to leaked internal communications from the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP).

A cache of documents seen by the Guardian details how the government's main website for job hunters – which tens of thousands of unemployed people have been required by the DWP to sign up to – is likely to be jettisoned when the contract for the service comes up for renewal in two years.

A year and a half after its launch, Universal Jobmatch has been ridiculed for hosting numerous fake jobs, including one for an MI6 "target elimination specialist" and "international couriers" for CosaNostra Holdings, as well as listings for pornographic websites.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 17, 2014)

...in _two years!_

So that means for the foreseable future people still have to put up with this shit on pain of sanction.


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## treelover (Mar 17, 2014)

They will just bring a similar one back if they get elected, and Labour will probably continue something like it, bit in their teeth now.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 18, 2014)

It seems likely that, in all policy areas, labour will carry on from where we currently are



> Civil servants say that the US company, which pioneered online recruitment two decades ago, has demanded an extra £975,000 to clear Universal Jobmatch of fraudulent employment ads.



They have the DWP over a barrel at public expense. still IDs accepts no responsibility


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 22, 2014)

This was recently posted on People's Assembly South West FB group. I'm sure there are - and will be in future - more stories similar to this one:



> [Think prudent to edit] (my brother)
> has applied for the new PIP
> disability benefit in October
> 2013. He has still not
> ...


----------



## _angel_ (Mar 22, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Not as far as I've heard.  Every benefit claimant of any kind whatsoever will be classed as a Universal Credit Claimant.
> 
> Recipients of the state pension, carers in receipt of CA, working people who don't earn enough to cover their rent but qualify for Housing Benefit or Local Housing Allowance, people in receipt of Child Benefit - they'll all be under the umbrella of UC _and therefore sanctionable._


Not what it says here or what I've heard. It's for working age only.
https://www.gov.uk/universal-credit

"
Universal Credit will eventually replace:


Income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance
Income-related Employment and Support Allowance
Income Support
Working Tax Credit
Child Tax Credit
Housing Benefit" 
Therefore not carers allowance or DLA/ PIP. I mean why introduce PIP at the same time as UC only to have it amalgamated? 
It's debatable if they even get as far as that.


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## Frankie Jack (Mar 24, 2014)




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## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 24, 2014)

_angel_ said:


> Not what it says here or what I've heard. It's for working age only.
> https://www.gov.uk/universal-credit
> 
> "
> ...


you're completely correct on the benefits/tax credits being replaced by UC. thing is with carers, many who claim carer's allowance claim income support to top it up so they'll be caught  by extension. same with part-time workers, currently they can simply do the work and claim WTC, under the UC regime, they'll also need to do job search activity or face sanctions which is pretty crazy.


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## _angel_ (Mar 24, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> you're completely correct on the benefits/tax credits being replaced by UC. thing is with carers, many who claim carer's allowance claim income support to top it up so they'll be caught  by extension. same with part-time workers, currently they can simply do the work and claim WTC, under the UC regime, they'll also need to do job search activity or face sanctions which is pretty crazy.


You already "work" 35 hours a  week to claim carer's allowance. Afaik there are no other groups who are expected to work or seek more than 35 hours a week in order to claim. Unemployed people aren't expected to look for more than 35 hours a week.

Carers would then be expected to work 35 hrs caring + another 35 =70 hours or in the case of most of us, 35 extra hours in the week because we are there 24/7 already.

Asking part timers to look for jobs to fill the "extra" hours is one thing, in carers cases, these hours don't exist.

If a carer reckoned they could get a job that was 35 hrs a week I reckon they would be thrown off carer's allowance anyway.
I'm sceptical.
We'll see.


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## treelover (Mar 25, 2014)




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## Awesome Wells (Mar 25, 2014)

What needs to happen also is the removal of presumed guilt from the sanction proceess, though of course ideally removing sanctions entirely would be my choice.

However I think this ability to simply 'raise a doubt' because a claimant hasn't done something deemed reasonable, which, let's face it, anything could fall into that category, is obscene. This is what allows advisers to be so trigger happy because it divests them of responsibility. It was labour that brought this change in, btw.

If people were only deprived of their income after a doubt is properly investigated, and not simply as a consequence of it being raised, things would be different. Advisers couldn't get away with being so trigger happy because the claimant wouldn't lose money until a proper investiugation is undertaken, this takes time and money (which is presumably why it was changed).

While it might be idealistic to think such investigations would all be conducted fairly and throughly, the claimant wouldn't immediately be placed in hardship at the whim of an ill informed or vindictive adviser. The current situation achieves the same end through presuming guilt and thereby conveniently doing away with the need to investigate al all.  That said 9 out of 10 appeals reportedly are upheld - but only where an appeal is made.


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## Frankie Jack (Mar 25, 2014)

Dunkedin Schitt on the tellybox Beeb Parli now. Vote on the welfare spending cap that Labour are supporting.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 25, 2014)

Bet that's one debate he won't be walking out of.


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## Frankie Jack (Mar 25, 2014)

Oddly I've just looked and he's gone. Will be back for the vote no doubt.


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## ddraig (Mar 27, 2014)

DPAC campaigner questions DWP Barclays DisabilityCONFIDENT conference

shame on Simon Weston too


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 27, 2014)

What a lovely man we all thought Simon 'shut your face' Weston is. This plucky hero who survived terrible facial injuries in the Falklands.

What a shameful attitude..


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## treelover (Mar 28, 2014)

ATOS - named after the Greek God of Shafting the Sick and Infirm.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 28, 2014)

If Simon Weston is a Thatcherite then he really is a twat: she sent him to get his face burned a thousand miles from England. All so she could stay in office and sow the legacy the gentleman, very eloquently, criticises in that clip. Oh how the world turns...


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2014)

treelover said:


> ATOS - named after the Greek God of Shafting the Sick and Infirm.



I understand he tried to get Hephaestus, the Greek G-d of Smiths, put on the Work Program.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 29, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> If Simon Weston is a Thatcherite then he really is a twat: she sent him to get his face burned a thousand miles from England.  <snip>


you seem to forget that a lot of current and former people in the army, navy, and RAF tend to be at least conservative even if not Conservatives.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 29, 2014)

I've no idea how people in the army vote. Simon Weston however has had a considerable profile over the years. One might argue that might expose him more to the opinions spoken by the person he's rudely dismissive of in that video. I guess not.


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## Frankie Jack (Mar 29, 2014)

Painful to read bullshit statement about Atos contract ending.
Penning..
"My commitment to performance is why my department took immediate action last
summer when we identified significant quality failures in the written reports produced by Atos following assessments."



http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-vote-office/March_2014/27 March/32-DWP-Atos.pdf


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 29, 2014)

they are a shower of wankers basically.


----------



## treelover (Mar 31, 2014)




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## Frankie Jack (Mar 31, 2014)

.Gov benefits calculator has been shut down. Now redirecting to an independent site entitled to for info. They kept this quiet. 


Benefits Adviser shut down on 30 March 2014. You can’t use the service or access your answers.
Use independent benefits calculator entitledto to find out what benefits you could get and how to claim.

You can answer questions anonymously.


https://www.gov.uk/benefits-calculators


----------



## Jackobi (Mar 31, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> .Gov benefits calculator has been shut down. Now redirecting to an independent site entitled to for info. They kept this quiet.



Great, so potential claimants and current claimants have to rely on an independent site that could close down at any time itself. A cynic might think it was a ploy to prevent people from finding out which benefits they can claim.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Mar 31, 2014)

Yep.


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## Greebo (Mar 31, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> .Gov benefits calculator has been shut down. Now redirecting to an independent site entitled to for info. They kept this quiet. <snip>


----------



## StoneRoad (Mar 31, 2014)

shutting that .gov benefits calculator down in favour of an "independent" site with adverts !!!! (look at their funding page)
 .............. that stinks.
the cynical reason ^^^^^ +1 and to "save money / gov't headcount" is my guess.


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## Frankie Jack (Mar 31, 2014)

Adblock stops all that gubbins appearing on my sites thankfully.


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## Frankie Jack (Apr 1, 2014)

Big changes for Jobseekers and lone parents from 28 April 
2014 
Work related activity for lone parents with younger children 
Those getting Income Support for being a lone parent will have to take part in work 
focused interviews at the Jobcentre if they have a youngest child aged 1 to 4. The time and duration will be tailored to the needs of the lone parent. 
Lone parents with a youngest child aged 3 or 4 will have to undertake mandatory ‘work related activity’ “to better prepare them for the full work-related requirements they will face when their child turns five”. This applies to those getting Income Support for being a lone parent or Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) and in the Work Related Activity Group. It does not apply to those in the ESA support group. 
Free Local Authority child care for up to 15 hours a week should enable this activity to take place. Lone parents will be told about these changes when they first claim or at their next work focused interview and in a factsheet. 
Once a lone parent, whose youngest child is 3 or over, volunteers for the Work 
Programme, participation will become mandatory. 
Failure to comply with these activities – without good cause – means Income Support may be cut (sanctioned). It starts with a 20% cut but will increase to 100% for further failures. Only one Income Support sanction is allowed in a two week period

I don't have an online link for this pdf but the upload is here..

https://www.facebook.com/groups/274579539313735/506108452827508/


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 1, 2014)

I don't know whether to laugh, cry or just keep the hell away from youtube.


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## treelover (Apr 1, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Big changes for Jobseekers and lone parents from 28 April
> 2014
> Work related activity for lone parents with younger children
> Those getting Income Support for being a lone parent will have to take part in work
> ...



disgusting, its a war on the poor.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 1, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Big changes for Jobseekers and lone parents from 28 April
> 2014
> Work related activity for lone parents with younger children
> Those getting Income Support for being a lone parent will have to take part in work
> ...


I'd love to know where all these jobs that fit in around school and childcare hours are going to appear from.


----------



## weepiper (Apr 1, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I'd love to know where all these jobs that fit in around school and childcare hours are going to appear from.


They're not jobs. It's workfare.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 1, 2014)

weepiper said:


> They're not jobs. It's workfare.


How many workfare placements will fit around chilcare and school commitments though? A lot of them just seem to be full time hours.


----------



## treelover (Apr 1, 2014)

Will parents whose children have disabilities be exempt.

btw, it is looking as if Osborne is now running the show in  relation to Workfare, gloves are off, Heydrich has taken over.


----------



## treelover (Apr 1, 2014)

> On another note has anyone actually been informed of being required to attend a community placement; we keep hearing about it but nothing appears to be happening. From what I gather at the local DWP office a lot of staff are being shifted around and last week’s signing was heaving with punter and carrot dangler alike whereas in the past it’s been fairly empty at least in the Reading office of an afternoon. The timing seems to indicate the April Osborne jazz is coming into play…



posted elsewhere


----------



## weepiper (Apr 1, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> How many workfare placements will fit around chilcare and school commitments though? A lot of them just seem to be full time hours.



I'm not sure they care about how it will fit. More opportunity to sanction people for refusing (and thus get their claimant figures down) if it doesn't fit anyway.


----------



## treelover (Apr 1, 2014)

2nd National anti-atos/dwp sanctions protests happened yesterday, quite small really but all good.

interestingly, the SWP have all but disappeared.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 1, 2014)

weepiper said:


> I'm not sure they care about how it will fit. More opportunity to sanction people for refusing (and thus get their claimant figures down) if it doesn't fit anyway.




I hate all this shit, it's diabolical.


----------



## treelover (Apr 2, 2014)

> "More than 40 people carrying placards stating “this is a crime scene” and “cut to the bone” aired their feelings about the controversial Work Capability Assessment introduced a year ago."
> 
> http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/n...er-unfair-disabled-work-assessments-1-5972903



Northhampton, looks good

Leader of Left Unity, Bianca Todd, is in the centre of the image.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 3, 2014)

I notice, thanks to email spam, loan sharks online targetting people on benefits.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 3, 2014)

no way! imagine evil scum loan sharks preying on the vulnerable!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 3, 2014)

ddraig said:


> no way! imagine evil scum loan sharks preying on the vulnerable!


I know, right!

I'm As shocked as you are.

This might cheer us up


----------



## superfly101 (Apr 5, 2014)

Tipping the Balance ?

http://www.community-links.org/news/pr/tipping-the-balance

http://www.community-links.org/uploads/documents/TIPPING_THE__BALANCE.pdf



> Community Links has published Tipping the Balance, our report into the cumulative impact of welfare reform on people in Newham We work in one of the most deprived areas of the country, where many residents have been faced with drastically reduced incomes as a result of the changes implemented 12-months ago.
> 
> The report comes one year after the Government’s flagship welfare reforms were introduced and follows a month in which many people, including 27 Anglican bishops and other faith leaders, have expressed alarm at their impact. In response, the Government has continued to emphasise that the reforms are intended to get people out of a cycle of dependency and encourage them into work.
> 
> ...



Too grim for me this fine Sat afternoon tbf


----------



## Greebo (Apr 5, 2014)

superfly101 said:


> Tipping the Balance ?<snip>
> 
> Too grim for me this fine Sat afternoon tbf


They are grim, but thanks for passing them on.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 6, 2014)

The Dark Lord rides again.



> Welfare cheats will be forced to sell their homes and pay higher fines to reimburse taxpayers for the money they have wrongly claimed, under plans to tackle benefit fraud.
> 
> The reforms include:
> 
> ...



More fear and loathing,  more division and insecurity.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

He was going to make a major speech on it, but has had second thoughts as the Miller case rolls on, even in 'benefit scrounger' obsessed Britain, it wouldn't look good to be talking about fraud , etc at such a time.

Smith has said though by the end of the parliament he would have saved(cut) 50bn in benefits, if this is true, its fucking horrendous, that's 50bn from the most vunerable and 50bn form local communities, no wonder many many cheap shops are shutting, but Waitrose is booming.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> The Dark Lord rides again.
> 
> 
> 
> More fear and loathing,  more division and insecurity.



Was this all from the 'review' by the man from Policy Exchange?


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

> A publicity campaign, including posters urging claimants to report those whom they suspect to be cheating the system, and letters warning individuals to check they are not receiving too much.



Shamefully, similar posters under Nl were left alone by left wing fly posters here, often SWP posters were put up alongside!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 6, 2014)

I don't know!


treelover said:


> Was this all from the 'review' by the man from Policy Exchange?




I forgot he'd been involved, Matthew fucking Oakley. It wouldn'r surprise me. There was no way he was going to do a proper review, a bit like asking Ozzy Osbourne to report on the viability of the bat population.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

http://www.spartacusnetwork.org.uk/

new website for disability benefit campaigners


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

"i am about 450.00 behind with my bedroom tax, have decided to apologise and offer 50p to the council, i really think they should accept this generous gesture and move on."


plus a comment on the above site


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2014)

> *The Fit for Work blog 31 January 2014*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



https://blogs.citizensadvice.org.uk/blog/was-it-fit-for-work-for-you/
Good news, just found this, the CAB are finally wising up to the welfare reforms and robustly challenging some of them, they can't ignore the(human) evidence.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> "i am about 450.00 behind with my bedroom tax, have decided to apologise and offer 50p to the council, i really think they should accept this generous gesture and move on."
> 
> 
> plus a comment on the above site



Actually to be in line with current accepted practice, you'd have to offer £4.50.

50p ffs, you bloody scrounger! :mad


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 6, 2014)

treelover said:


> https://blogs.citizensadvice.org.uk/blog/was-it-fit-for-work-for-you/
> Good news, just found this, the CAB are finally wising up to the welfare reforms and robustly challenging some of them, they can't ignore the(human) evidence.


The CAB are now partly funded by the DWP so they'll need all the luck they can get once Iain Duncan Mengele puts the thumbscrews on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> The CAB are now partly funded by the DWP so they'll need all the luck they can get once Iain Duncan Mengele puts the thumbscrews on.



TBF, Josef Mengele was a highly-qualified medical expert, whatever other sick fuckeries he engaged in, whereas Iain Dunked-in Shit has never been a highly-qualified anything, except wanker.
Now if you'd said "Iain Duncan Goering"...


----------



## treelover (Apr 7, 2014)

Media reporting more brutal changes, people will have to sign on each week, present a cv, not sure how much of it all is new, I expect this is now the election campaign, obscene really.


----------



## Jackobi (Apr 7, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> The CAB are now partly funded by the DWP...



"Just thought I'd 'flag up' that fact..."


----------



## treelover (Apr 9, 2014)

> *Need For Food Banks IS Caused By Welfare Cuts Finds Study*
> April 9, 2014
> 
> The government’s welfare reforms, including benefit sanctions and the bedroom tax, are a central factor in the explosion in the numbers of impoverished people turning to charity food banks, an academic study has said.
> ...



Damning report by the same author who helped write the Govt one which denied there was a link


----------



## treelover (Apr 9, 2014)

> UNPOPULAR face-to-face interviews are to be axed as part of a Government shake-up of their Work Capability Assessment following recommendations set out by a chief medical officer recruited to review WCA testing.
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/back-work-interviews-scrapped-after-3384060



WCA face to face interviews to be scrapped? not clear about this

and having to have more medical evidence isn't necessarily positive, many patients with long term conditions are basically left to rot with no real medical involvement.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 9, 2014)

treelover said:


> and having to have more medical evidence isn't necessarily positive, many patients with long term conditions are basically left to rot with no real medical involvement.



Discussed this with my GP last year. Asked her if she liked the idea of all her patients on disability benefits constantly badgering her for consultant referrals, just to keep their medical evidence up-to-date.  As you might guess, she thought that might put adverse strain on the surgery!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 9, 2014)

treelover said:


> Damning report by the same author who helped write the Govt one which denied there was a link


They will dismiss it. They have an election to fight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2014)

treelover said:


> "i am about 450.00 behind with my bedroom tax, have decided to apologise and offer 50p to the council, i really think they should accept this generous gesture and move on."
> 
> 
> plus a comment on the above site


i'm not sure it really gains from giving maria miller a hitler moustache


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 10, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/07/unemployment-benefits-signing-on-culture

Rules on unemployment benefits tightened to end signing on culture. 

Culture? Or survival?

And why should this depend on the supposed state of the labour market? This just, again, implies the unemployed are lazy. If people need benefits then just give it tothem.

What if someone can't get a cv together before they canclaim? Isnt this the sort of thing JC+ should be helping with, not using against people who need help? 

I don't like the idea of increasing conditionalitybasedon the state of the economy.


----------



## treelover (Apr 10, 2014)

This is just the Poor Law revisited.

just read that article, seems there was going to be a anti-scrounger offensive launched with measures mentioned each day by the whole of the Govts DWP/Employment ministers, but something came up to scupper all that, though of course the measures will still go ahead.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 10, 2014)

Reading through Benefit and Pension Rates I notice on page 10/11, Housing costs- Deductions for non-dependants, there is a bolded deduction at the bottom.

*Reduction in benefit for people in work who are on strike £40.00*



https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/302150/dwp035-apr-14.pdf


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 10, 2014)

That is outrageous!


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 10, 2014)

Never heard anything about that in all the hours of watching/listening/reading the WRA going through both houses..!!


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 10, 2014)

Found this. Slipped out an a Sunday in 2012. Typical. Striking will  affect UC too.. 

The worker on strike would continue to receive a basic benefit if they are in receipt of the universal credit. But if their income drops as a result of joining a strike, their universal credit will not increase.

Duncan Smith said: "It is totally wrong that the current benefit system compensates workers and tops up their income when they go on strike. This is unfair to taxpayers and creates perverse incentives. Striking is a choice, and in future benefit claimants will have to pay the price for that choice, as under universal credit, we no longer will."

 Bastards..!!


----------



## treelover (Apr 10, 2014)

btw, why do I get the feeling these Guardian journalists like Watt revel in these hard line measures, on the Daily Politics Watt described McVile as "a woman of 'outstanding calibre"


----------



## treelover (Apr 10, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Found this. Slipped out an a Sunday in 2012. Typical. Striking will  affect UC too..
> 
> The worker on strike would continue to receive a basic benefit if they are in receipt of the universal credit. But if their income drops as a result of joining a strike, their universal credit will not increase.
> 
> ...



very good spot, deserves its own thread

They are doing everything they wanted to do in the 80's and Labour are silent or endorsing it all.


----------



## treelover (Apr 10, 2014)

> SR13 is the breakdown of what DWP hopes to achieve in savings etc. when the changes in the Spending Review of 2013 are implemented.
> An example from the document - "By 2015, we are expecting around 560,000 DLA re-assessments to have taken place, with around 170,000 claimants (30 per cent) expected to lose entitlement to benefit".
> That's a direct quote from this -
> www.parliament.uk/documents.commons-committees/work-and-pensions or just google sr13dwp






Next big and cruel thing is SR13, its the bureaucratic callousness of it all, I don't usually say this but it becomes clearer how the final solution became possible.

Though, of course, they are so useless, that most of the above has been postponed to 2017.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 10, 2014)

Pissed off with the Spartacus report too. It's actually advocating MORE assessments for ill and disabled claiming ESA so people can be further assessed for what they CAN do enabling MORE info sent to JC+ Disability advisers about their abilities and disabilities so they can be crammed into imaginary work somewhere once employers take on board their needs and make adaptations and changes for them. 

Yeah that's gonna work. More stress, costs and profits for poverty pimps.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 10, 2014)

Fucking sick of sue march being the supposed face of disability campaigning. her Passive/agressive pushing of this report all over the place was boakworthy.


----------



## treelover (Apr 10, 2014)

Yes, as a senior party member, she seems to be following a New Labour line, I used to think she was fantastic and she is a great campaigner, but have my doubts about her direction now

Oh, and another thing, these latest cruel and petty measures were certainly signed off by Clegg who recently said "we must sharpen the incentives to work"


----------



## treelover (Apr 10, 2014)

Next, Osborne is to send his pie chart detailing government expenditure to millions of people, it has a a massive category  labelled simply "welfare" which is not broken down into what he is actually spending in the various categories such as pensions which take up the bulk of spending, disgustingly it will also include social care* and of course taxpayers will be paying for this little missive.


*reminding one of "the citizen, this imbecile will cost you 30'000 Reich's Marks" of the 1930's


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 10, 2014)

She's (Marsh) looking for a wee ermine seat in the Lords. That's so obvious as to be a slap in the face.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 10, 2014)

Get your hero worship ironed and ready


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 10, 2014)

Arent you being a tad unfair?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 10, 2014)

No, I don't think so. There's an obvious serious connection to the Labour party there and her rhetoric takes that into consideration all the time. The latest sparty report, as I said, is calling for more WCA type assessments to get people with serious illnesses and disabilities off benefits and into work when the call should be to scrap the damned thing completely.  

She has been using passive/agressive posts on social media to get people behind it and saying it's been well received everywhere when it hasn't. Well perhaps by those who follow her unthinkingly and politicals who can use it to continue ESA claimant bashing. 

I honestly thought when Sparty started talking to other groups like Black Triangle and DPAC that it would make a difference to the academic based think tank that Spartacus seems to have become. 

Sue is just the face of that because of her following and possible influence in the Labour party. 

We don't take any other politics or think tank type reports and people at face value so why should we blindly follow Sue and accept all she is and stands for. 

We are not spoons.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 10, 2014)

The report suggests that a 'caseworker' meet with the prospective claimant several times, gathering evidence, before submitting this for a final decision, possibly in the claimant's home.

Is this what you mean?

I share your concerns about proximity to the labour party, same with Jack Monroe.


----------



## treelover (Apr 10, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> *The report suggests that a 'caseworker' meet with the prospective claimant several times, gathering evidence, before submitting this for a final decision, possibly in the claimant's home.*
> 
> Is this what you mean?
> 
> I share your concerns about proximity to the labour party, same with Jack Monroe.




Ah, that is very revealing, this is exactly what is happening with social care in many areas of the U.K:, when you apply for a care assessment now you start off with a process called 'reablement' where someone from a private agency spends at least six weeks intensive in your home, teaching a client how to cook, manage day to living, even washing and toileting, its basically Orwellian screening and to get surveillance into the home and only 20% of applicants are finally getting an assessment, It is really cynical stuff, imo. Labour councils are particularly fond of it as it looks like they are doing something when basically they are making cuts.

not many even very disabled people would pass a process where you are observed for six weeks in the home.Certainly, those with MH problems who exhibited even the desire for a bit of life, playing music, ringing friends, etc would be in difficulty.

Frankie, which sites are there where you can express concern with the report?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 10, 2014)

If you can find one where the Spoonie brigade don't jump all over it for daring to disagree let me know. Welfare News Service may be posting up articles.. then again... Editor Steve has voiced concerns. 

http://welfarenewsservice.com/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 10, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> The report suggests that a 'caseworker' meet with the prospective claimant several times, gathering evidence, before submitting this for a final decision, possibly in the claimant's home.
> 
> Is this what you mean?
> 
> I share your concerns about proximity to the labour party, same with Jack Monroe.




Yep. Further stress and hassle when really not needed. All to crowbar people into imaginary jobs.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 10, 2014)

TBH between Indyref, WRA, new DWP legislation etc. and trying to help and inform people on many aspects of all of these I'm feeling a tad thinly spread at the moment. I feel a 'pissed' on the horizon.. soon..


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 10, 2014)

i can't find much in the way of criticism or even discussion of this rport, including the link above.


----------



## treelover (Apr 10, 2014)

On now BBC 1, Panorama: 'don't cap my benefits'


----------



## J Ed (Apr 10, 2014)

treelover said:


> On now BBC 1, Panorama: 'don't cap my benefits'



Just saw a woman on there threatened with being moved of London unless she became an Avon rep. A mother of five. Jesus.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 10, 2014)

treelover said:


> On now BBC 1, Panorama: 'don't cap my benefits'


This is some depressing stuff. That guy in High Wycombe from Brent having to pay to commute as a result of being forced out.

This is a theatre of the fucking insane.

I don't think I can stomch the twitter feed


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 10, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Just saw a woman on there threatened with being moved of London unless she became an Avon rep. A mother of five. Jesus.


And there's no guarantee she'll get or succeed the job. It's just a zero hours thing, that sort of work.


----------



## treelover (Apr 10, 2014)

Blimey, an empathetic balanced programme on benefits on the BBC(who basically began the smearing with Britain On The Sick' Panorama a few years ago), well I never

Condem's will be livid,


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 10, 2014)

I don't agree that purpose of 'welfare' is to engineer people into work. It should be about meeting people's basic needs so they can transcend a life of stress, one day at a time, hand to mouth, living where everything is worry and hassle. Then they can plan for the future and society can help them utilise their skills and abilities for something worthwhile. Not hawking cheap slap for a few hours here and there while trying to feed 5 kids.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 10, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> And there's no guarantee she'll get or succeed the job. It's just a zero hours thing, that sort of work.



We really need someone to do a study on how much self-employment has brought down the unemployment figures, several figures have hinted at the extent of the problem.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 10, 2014)

God that program wound me up from start to finish. More than any of those ridiculous 'debates' that have been on in the past few months. It wound me up because it's seeing people at the sharp end of these policies, getting stamped on repeatedly by this fucking snivelling rotten shower of cunts in government.  I also felt quite scared because I'm a whisker away from being in a similar situation and there's not a thing I can do about it except find a job but unfortunately there's no job fairy.


----------



## tony.c (Apr 10, 2014)

treelover said:


> Blimey, an empathetic balanced programme on benefits on the BBC(who basically began the smearing with Britain On The Sick' Panorama a few years ago), well I never
> 
> Condem's will be livid,


I don't know about that. At the end the woman with five kids got a council house in Brent and a job as a nursery worker, and the family who were sent to High Wycombe were returned to London after a review, so they'll say the reforms are working.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 10, 2014)

It's just bullying.

IDS gets paid a fortune in a party of people who get paid a fortune in a place that costs a fortune and the best he can muster is to push people into absolute dire straits and then have a go at them for not taking a miserable job selling cosmetics. Tha'ts money that could be used to give them a citizens income or at the very least invest in building them a future. Since that lady with 5 kids ended up working in a nursery; why wasn't that the plan at the DWP from the start; assuming that was something she wanted to do (don't know, didn't say), it seems an obvious fit for a mother and a job that helps the community.

Instead it's just the rich bullying the poor and the desperate. 

Fuck you Smith, I hope you fucking burn.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 10, 2014)

J Ed said:


> We really need someone to do a study on how much self-employment has brought down the unemployment figures, several figures have hinted at the extent of the problem.


And learn whether any of these people are going to fall foul of having to repay their tax credits because their 'business' didn't earn enough.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 10, 2014)

I thought I was pretty well versed on social policy but the bit where that woman said 'so Brent council can't afford to pay my rent now but if I'm working they'll pay it all except £4 I have to find myself?' or words to that effect just took my breath away at the stupidity of it. As you say, AW it's just bullying. This isn't about saving money, it's not about support it's about forcing people into meaningless, soul destroying employment to make some other cunt richer than they already are. Avon! FFS! Avon! When you have 5 kids? It's beyond absurd! Help people into work by all means but make sure there's jobs better than going door to door begging people to slather themselves in cosmetic slop for a nominal fee. 

Fucking hell I'm beyond fucking angry at this! Fuck the tories, fuck their spineless power hungry rent boys on their knees deep throating their master's spotty, wrinkly 0.5 inch dicks, fuck the pathetic weasel labour party, fuck all the other shitty parties, especially that sack of cheesy bellends that Farage is and fuck the proddy cunting work ethic! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## J Ed (Apr 10, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> And learn whether any of these people are going to fall foul of having to repay their tax credits because their 'business' didn't earn enough.



If it's as big of a problem as it seems and the system is being abused this way then surely we are going to see huge problems.


----------



## treelover (Apr 10, 2014)

I bet the housing officers never thought they would have to act as they do when they first contemplated their career.


----------



## weepiper (Apr 10, 2014)

There was a point when I was working and two of my kids were under school age so were at private nursery 2 days a week that I was getting_ more _money in housing benefit and child and working tax credits than I was getting in Income Support, housing benefit and child tax credits whilst 'out of work'. I did think a few times 'is this _really _the best use of resources?'


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 10, 2014)

Did anyone else feel dismayed about the success of propaganda as a whole? The bit where the woman with the purple hair said 'I don't wanna be like this, living on benefit street I'm not like those people'  I don't necessarily blame her for those views but to be able to get people in the exact same boat to turn against others like that is depressingly remarkable.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 10, 2014)

Another thing I wanna point out is whether you think the end of it was subtle propaganda, or not so subtle maybe, that essentially justifies the whole thing?  

There was a panorama on a few months ago called Britain's secret death squad about, well, exactly that operating in Northern Ireland.



Skip it to 56:22 and watch the minute or so of dialogue.  One commenter said this:



> Take a look at the last 5 mins again .
> The BBC , investigates / exposes / interviews / creates the illusion of fairness , and THEN ,  justifies the whole thing beautifully  "what are you gonna do about it John ? Im asking you now"
> "I think youve already answered that question"
> Incredibly subtle propaganda - aimed at other wars .
> Kids going to Afghanistan see this ( very clever PR )



At the end of this panorama about Brent a clip of a speech by Nick Clegg was played saying 'The government is announcing the most radical overhaul of our welfare system since its inception. Driven by a simple overriding principle. The purpose of welfare is to help people into work.' By putting that at the end it seems to be saying 'well yeah this is harsh but these people should be in work.'

At first I disagreed with that youtube commenter but having seen the end of this film I'm not so sure because it appears to be the exact same tactic? What do ya reckon? I don't wanna derail the thread too much but just wondered what others think?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm out rattling cages about the Sparty report. It's not looking good for them to be honest.


----------



## treelover (Apr 11, 2014)

in what way?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 14, 2014)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...ng-fear-bailiffs-3398492#.U0fCNJyYz0w.twitter

87,000 people face the bailiffs thanks to fat cunt Pickles slashing council tax benefit. This is fucked up beyond measure.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 15, 2014)

This is a great list of charges, correct oas of January. IDS' hundred failures:


----------



## treelover (Apr 15, 2014)

> By Jonathan Rutherford
> Jonathan Rutherford looks at the connections between government and the insurance business in their joint project to reduce eligibility for sickness benefits.
> In November 2001 a conference assembled at Woodstock, near Oxford. Its subject was ‘Malingering and Illness Deception’. The topic was a familiar one to the insurance industry, but it was now becoming a major political issue as New Labour committed itself to reducing the 2.6 million who were claiming Incapacity Benefit (IB). Amongst the 39 participants was Malcolm Wicks, then Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Work, and Mansel Aylward, his Chief Medical Officer at the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP). Fraud – which amounts to less than 0.4 per cent of IB claims – was not the issue. The experts and academics present were the theorists and ideologues of welfare to work. What linked many of them together, including Aylward, was their association with the giant US income protection company UnumProvident, represented at the conference by John LoCascio. The goal was the transformation of the welfare system. The cultural meaning of illness would be redefined; growing numbers of claimants would be declared capable of work and ‘motivated’ into jobs. A new work ethic would transform IB recipients into entrepreneurs helping themselves out of poverty and into self-reliance. Five years later these goals would take a tangible form in New Labour’s 2006 Welfare Reform Bill.
> http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2011/09/07/new-labour-the-market-state-and-the-end-of-welfare/


Think its time for a repost of the above, labour may be in power in a years time


----------



## J Ed (Apr 16, 2014)

re: earlier discussions on self-employment lowering unemployment statistics

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ource=indynewsletter&utm_medium=email16042014



> 27 per cent said they had become self-employed because of a lack of an alternative.
> 
> The survey also revealed that 44 per cent of the new self-employed in lower skilled occupations would rather be an employee, double the proportion (21 per cent) of the more highly skilled.
> 
> ...


----------



## J Ed (Apr 16, 2014)

I thought that this was a very good piece http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/gas-cooker-benefits-delayed-life-food-bank-user/691


----------



## J Ed (Apr 16, 2014)

This is heartening stuff

http://www.theguardian.com/media/20...fits-street-second-series-stockton-opposition



> The notoriety of Channel 4's documentary Benefits Street has left the show's producers facing an uphill task trying to persuade people to take part in a second series as well as a spin-off programme about immigration.
> 
> Programme-makers scouting potential locations for another series of the controversial programme in Stockton-on-Tees, and a separate documentary with a working title Immigration Street in Southampton, have faced opposition from politicians and community leaders.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Apr 17, 2014)

Just read that Smith has hired a senior Murdoch man: Richard Caseby, managing editor from the Sun/Sunday Times as strategic director of communications at the DWP, God he is a swine, its the most politicised Govt dept in the EU!


----------



## treelover (Apr 17, 2014)

"two young women, both dressed down in leggings and jumpers but with cut-glass southern accents"

Pathetic...


----------



## J Ed (Apr 17, 2014)

http://www.unemployednet.org/unemployment-falls-still-being-driven-fake-self-employment



> A fall in unemployment was announced today by the Office for National Statistics, but this disguises some very bad news for unemployed people and the whole UK.
> 
> Between December 2013 and February 2014 unemployment fell by 77,000 to 2.24 million compared with the three previous months, driven not by a rise in the number of jobs - up by only 99,000 - but by a rise in self-employment, up 146,000.
> 
> ...


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 17, 2014)

Great article; I completely agree.

Odds jobs is right: i had a look on Universal Jobscam yesterday and there was a lot of 'jobs' advertised by a company called 'maid 2 clean' which, i gather, has you working self employed as a cleaner. It's effectively zero hours (2-16 a week is what they claimed you'd get, but as you're self employed - and as they attract more unemployed applicants - there's no guarantee). There's also people setting themselves up as tradesmen, in compeition with established artisans of course which helps noone, dog walkers, home tutors and all sorts.


----------



## tony.c (Apr 18, 2014)

jean said:


> hiiii


Hiiii to you too!  And welcome to urban75.
(You aren't firky are you ).


----------



## treelover (Apr 19, 2014)

Just a vanishing dream now...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 22, 2014)

*Cameron’s office calls police on Bishop trying to deliver letter on poverty (not satire!)*

*21* _Monday_ Apr 2014

Amazingly, David Cameron’s constituency office in Witney called the police when the Bishop of Oxford tried to hand in a letter about food poverty signed by church figures.

http://tompride.wordpress.com/2014/...ying-to-deliver-letter-on-poverty-not-satire/


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 22, 2014)

I bet that's the default setting for anyone trying to interact with a tory constituency office who isn't there to parrot the party line. 

Here's someone trying to see their MP, one Michael Gove. He, the visitor, doesn't seem like a raging anarchist troublemaker. (Though tbf he is filiming! I say fair, the fat guy on camera is a cunt)


----------



## ddraig (Apr 22, 2014)

Council Homes Chat
fighting back against negative portrayals
http://councilhomeschat.wordpress.com/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Apr 22, 2014)

Been meaning to post this but very busy trying to get my flat together.

Sue Marsh Guardian CiF article from the 18th on Labours plans didn't get a good reception in the comments. So similar to the Sparty Beyond Barriers report in many ways. 

*At last, Labour has a plan for getting disabled people into employment*
Rachel Reeves and Kate Green are moving Labour away from defining the problem as one of 'shirkers' who can work but don't


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 22, 2014)

There has been earlier criticism, or the hint thereof, of Sue Marsh. I would like some more on this. I get that she is close to Labour, but that's not enough. Let's have some evidence.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 22, 2014)

> • Labour would redesign the test, which is currently based on a computerised points system, to include a detailed analysis of jobs that individuals could actually carry out.



What the fuck?

So no change at all then. The current test is premised on the notion that people can do 'something' and then using that as an excuse to abandon them to the four winds, sans income. This is just the same. It doesn't address the problems of capitalism, labour market, exploitation, shit wages, securing work, getting to work, surviving in work, helping people do something worthwhile. It's just hot air.

I sincerely hope Sue Marhs isn't supporting this.


----------



## treelover (Apr 23, 2014)

> How in the hell could a man enjoy being awakened at 8:30 a.m. by an alarm clock, leap out of bed, dress, force-feed, shit, piss, brush teeth and hair, and fight traffic to get to a place where essentially you made lots of money for somebody else and were asked to be grateful for the opportunity to do so? ”
> ― Charles Bukowski, _Factotum _



just saw this quote for the first time

now its 6.00 am to get to the barista's job


----------



## treelover (Apr 23, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> What the fuck?
> 
> So no change at all then. The current test is premised on the notion that people can do 'something' and then using that as an excuse to abandon them to the four winds, sans income. This is just the same. It doesn't address the problems of capitalism, labour market, exploitation, shit wages, securing work, getting to work, surviving in work, helping people do something worthwhile. It's just hot air.
> 
> I sincerely hope Sue Marhs isn't supporting this.




It certainly doesn't take into account employers often won't take on disabled people, especially in the labour market we have, its just more persecution with a softer face.


----------



## treelover (Apr 23, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> What the fuck?
> 
> So no change at all then. The current test is premised on the notion that people can do 'something' and then using that as an excuse to abandon them to the four winds, sans income. This is just the same. It doesn't address the problems of capitalism, labour market, exploitation, shit wages, securing work, getting to work, surviving in work, helping people do something worthwhile. It's just hot air.
> 
> I sincerely hope Sue Marhs isn't supporting this.





Frankie Jack said:


> Been meaning to post this but very busy trying to get my flat together.
> 
> Sue Marsh Guardian CiF article from the 18th on Labours plans didn't get a good reception in the comments. So similar to the Sparty Beyond Barriers report in many ways.
> 
> ...




I notice the article had over 250 comments, that in itself is interesting, when ESA was first being mooted, the comments after could be counted on your hands and a few of them would be calling for sterilisation, etc.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 23, 2014)

I guess people like Sue deep down believe that Labour will make good on balance.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I guess people like Sue deep down believe that Labour will make good on balance.



They *have* to believe that, which is why Labour can be expected to be turned on by a shedload of their more recent activists within the first couple of years of government, if they win the G.E.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 25, 2014)

Does this sound sinister to anyone else?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a-million-workers-off-sick-for-more-than-a-month



> The Health and Work Service will help employees who have been on sickness absence for 4 weeks to return to work and support employers to better manage sickness absence among their workforce. It’s expected to save employers £70 million a year and cut the time people spend off work by 20% to 40%.
> 
> Minister of State for Work and Pensions Mike Penning said:
> 
> ...



Perhaps if the DWP was run by caring people...?


----------



## treelover (Apr 25, 2014)

Again, NL were planning something similar, Ed's lot will,



> Journalist Tom Clark draws on the research of a transatlantic team, to determine the great recession's toll on individuals, families and community bonds. He argues that the scars left by unemployment and poverty will linger long after the economy recovers.
> 
> http://www.guardianbookshop.co.uk/BerteShopWeb/viewProduct.do?ISBN=9780300203776&guni=Article:in body link




btw, new book out, 'Hard Times', by former Guardian Journo and DWP Economist(so he knows where the bodies are buried) Tom Clark, looks at the U.S experience as well.


----------



## treelover (Apr 25, 2014)

> "automatic car washes were once the future, but labour is now so cheap that "American-style" hand car washes run more profitably on humans than machines."



one insight from the book


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 28, 2014)

The new 'help to work(fare)' scheme starts today, in the news.

If after 2 years of being treated like shit by DWP you are still unemployed during a recession you get your choice of 30 hours slave labour a week/6months, 'training', intensive jobsearch/daily signing. No doubt the 'customer' will have no say in this.

This isn't news of course; we all know about this, but I wonder if the 2 years thing starts from now, or will be applied retrospectively - ie to everyone coming off the Fail Programme.

Someone from the DWP was on lcoal radio discussing this. She was asked if there was evidence to support it's supposed success. Yes! The presenter took that on faith. Oh well.


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 28, 2014)

Coverage on BBC news website
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27177767

contains this gem:-
"BBC social affairs correspondent Michael Buchanan said the government had signed up more than 70 organisations to provide work experience under the scheme.

However, our correspondent added that the Salvation Army is not taking part, because it believes if someone has not found a job after two years of intensive support, their lack of work experience is not their only barrier to employment. "

which in an "interesting" stance, given they support(?) the work programme.

Personally, I wonder how this might work if you are a "postal claimant" - I live over 1 1/2 miles from the bus route (and about 600ft higher up the hill! - although I'm currently still working (despite the gov'ts lack of real help to SME/third sector)


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 28, 2014)

Interesting that the media focus is on the measures affecting one in 30 JSA claimants (harsh though they are) rather than "day one conditionality" that affects all new claims. Divide and rule? Before first signing all new claimants must now have an email address, a usable CV, Universal Jobmatch account and some jobseeking.....


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 28, 2014)

The clear intention of day one conditionality is to discourage/delay claims from those without IT skills and access - with predictable consequences...


----------



## RedDragon (Apr 28, 2014)

This daily signing measure is nothing more than pure harassment, not to mention the JCP staff must overjoyed with the extra workload.


----------



## Schmetterling (Apr 28, 2014)

RedDragon said:


> This daily signing measure is nothing more than pure harassment, not to mention the JCP staff must overjoyed with the extra workload.


My suggestion would be for all claimants concerned to insist on signing on daily.  I know it would be a pain in the arse, and costly, but might put a spanner in?


----------



## treelover (Apr 28, 2014)

Where does all this end?, will these measures just go on and on? every new Minister brings in ever more brutal measures, and of course the obscenity that is Duncan Smith presides over it all. The end point must be some kind of Workhouse, the phone ins(or the 'Down Your Way' types that inhabit them) seem to support whatever measures Govt's bring in, where do they draw the line?  people are already dead as a consequences of benefit reform.

its a real question,


----------



## ddraig (Apr 28, 2014)

keep volunteering voluntary
http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=3543
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Keep-volunteering-voluntary/592238264202734


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 28, 2014)

StoneRoad said:


> Coverage on BBC news website
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27177767
> 
> contains this gem:-
> ...


The same Salvation Army that refused to even listen to me when I tried explaining my non-work experience problems whilst on the Work Programme.

Fuck them and their hypocrisy and fuck their god.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 28, 2014)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Interesting that the media focus is on the measures affecting one in 30 JSA claimants (harsh though they are) rather than "day one conditionality" that affects all new claims. Divide and rule? Before first signing all new claimants must now have an email address, a usable CV, Universal Jobmatch account and some jobseeking.....


Are they now allowed to force people to give them their email addresses? 

Even the data protection act no longer applies?


----------



## treelover (Apr 28, 2014)

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/201...ngled-help-to-work-scheme-attempts-to-launch/


Sickening , Groundwork Trust are going to use slave labour


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 28, 2014)

Do we know if travel/food expenses are to be reimbursed for people forced to go places daily that are miles away? Not everyone lives nxt to a JC+ or a vandalised cenotaph.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 28, 2014)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Interesting that the media focus is on the measures affecting one in 30 JSA claimants (harsh though they are) rather than "day one conditionality" that affects all new claims. Divide and rule? Before first signing all new claimants must now have an email address, a usable CV, Universal Jobmatch account and some jobseeking.....



I haven't noticed any media focus on any of this. Some of it gets mentioned in the papers and some of it doesn't but there's never any in depth analysis of exactly what's going on.


----------



## treelover (Apr 28, 2014)




----------



## treelover (Apr 30, 2014)

> Oliver KluweThis workfare schemes have been going in Germany since 2006. People are forced to work there for 1 Euro per hour to keep their benefits. They get placed in private companies for 6 months at at a time. Supposedly they should get a paid job in these companies if they work well (obey all orders) after this time. In 99.9% of all cases this doesn't happen, because the companies get a bonus just to take you on as a slave labourer. Why should they employ you and pay for you? After 6 months they just get another slave and get another bonus. The whole idea behind this scheme is to make employed people afraid of losing their job. To avoid this they work for less money as there is no minimum wage in Germany (or is just coming up with lots of exceptions). A typical hairdresser or baker, for example, works for about £1.75 an hour. Of course this is not enough to live on. So they have to go to the Jobcentre to get "Top-Ups" which makes them dependent on the Jobcentres who force them to apply for other, better jobs, although they have full-time regular jobs, just to keep control over them.
> 7 hours ago · "}' data-reactid=".n.1:3:1:$comment761269000579682_761515117221737:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$likeToggle:0:$action:0">Like
> 
> 
> ...



Someone on Another Angry Voice posted this about the benefit situation in Germany, if its true most of it is appalling.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 30, 2014)

> Oliver KluweA little bit more about Germany and what is hopefully not to come over here in the UK: If you are more than 1 year unemployed you have to sell everything before you get any benefits.



Disgusting.


----------



## superfly101 (Apr 30, 2014)

http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/news_and_e...cfm/sanctions-ineffective-jobcentre-staff-say



> *Sanctions ineffective, jobcentre staff say*
> 
> 30 April 2014
> Jobcentre staff do not believe stopping people's benefits encourages them to look for work, according to our new survey.
> ...


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 30, 2014)

> Questioned by Members of the Scottish Parliament, Neil Couling said many people who face benefit sanctions "welcome the jolt" it can give them.


 Is the most cuntish thing i have ever heard.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 1, 2014)

> *Judge refuses DWP leave to appeal ruling on Universal Credit reports*
> Posted on April 30, 2014 | 19 Comments
> By Tony Collins
> 
> ...



http://ukcampaign4change.com/2014/0...to-appeal-ruling-on-universal-credit-reports/


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 1, 2014)

So they can keep appealing until they find the right judge?


----------



## Greebo (May 1, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> So they can keep appealing until they find the right judge?


That's about the size of it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 1, 2014)

> *Bath Campaigner to go to Police to Bring Charges Against Tory Ministers*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- See more at: http://www.dorseteye.com/north/arti...-tory-ministers#sthash.zhE6Rgv6.uM5b9oNP.dpuf


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 1, 2014)

These changes really have gone too far (again).

This recent stuff has really upset me and that's because it just feels, now, that there is no 'safe word': there's no point at which someone can feel so pressured, stressed or just plain exploited, that the system/state will back off and say "sorry that's clearly too much, how can we help you?"

There really is no safety net. Just a hard concrete floor covered in broken glass and shit.


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 1, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> - See more at: http://www.dorseteye.com/north/arti...-tory-ministers#sthash.zhE6Rgv6.uM5b9oNP.dpuf


I fully endorse this.

I don't fancy his chances though 

Here's his letter from today


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 3, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> http://ukcampaign4change.com/2014/0...to-appeal-ruling-on-universal-credit-reports/



According to Political Scrapbook:


> But a second tier tribunal upheld the decision to order disclosure yesterday, with Judge David Farrer QC saying there was *no evidence of a chilling effect.*
> 
> _The DWP now has 28 days to decide whether it wants to throw yet more taxpayers’ cash at a losing battle._




And just when you thought the DWP couldn't be more callous (and noone thinks that); here's a man with cancer who's benefits have been cut that's been told to stop getting cancer treatment if he wants his benefit reinstated.


----------



## Greebo (May 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> According to Political Scrapbook:
> <snip> here's a man with cancer who's benefits have been cut that's been told to stop getting cancer treatment if he wants his benefit reinstated.


What the unholy fuck?


----------



## treelover (May 5, 2014)

> 30 April 2014
> Jobcentre staff do not believe stopping people's benefits encourages them to look for work, according to our new survey.
> Echoing the government's own research, in a survey of our members who work as jobcentre advisors, 70% of respondents said sanctions had no positive impact.
> More than three quarters of those who took part said they had seen an increase in referrals to foodbanks.
> ...



That's really damning


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 5, 2014)

I could think of a way to give Neil Cunting a jolt that a lot of jobseekers would welcome...


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 9, 2014)

> *Exclusive: So-called 'in-work poverty' soars by 59% under Coalition as more people with jobs are forced to claim housing benefit *
> 
> 
> *The number of people in work and claiming housing benefit has rocketed by 59 per cent since the Coalition came to power and will cost taxpayers an extra £5 billion by next year’s general election.*
> ...




*http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-forced-to-claim-housing-benefit-9340907.html*


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 9, 2014)

> *Housing benefit claimants 'up 60%'*
> 2:40am Friday 9th May 2014 in National News  © Press Association 2014
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/national/news/11201843.Housing_benefit_claimants__up_60__/


----------



## Greebo (May 9, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/national/news/11201843.Housing_benefit_claimants__up_60__/


It really shouldn't be like this - there should be more full time work (not just "available full time" on a zero hours contract) which pays enough to live on.


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 11, 2014)




----------



## Treacle Toes (May 12, 2014)

> David Blanchflower
> 
> Sunday 11 May 2014
> 
> ...





> Unemployment still matters. Fortunately the unemployment rate has been trending down in the UK, from 7.9 per cent in May 2010, to a high of 8.4 per cent at the end of 2011, to the latest estimate of 6.9 per cent. The number of unemployed has fallen by 414,000 over this period.
> 
> But those positive moves hides a multitude of sins. First, the unemployment rate of those under 18 is 21.7 per cent and 17.2 per cent for those ages 18-24. There are still 881,000 unemployed youngsters under the age of 25, of whom 600,000 are not in full-time education. Second, the unemployment rate of Pakistanis is 17 per cent; 18.6 per cent for Bangladeshis; and 15.9 per cent for Black/African/Caribbeans. Third, long-term unemployment has risen. In the latest data, 807,000 had been unemployed for at least a year, of whom 244,000 were under 25. Fourth, the groups that experience high levels of unemployment are hit by a double whammy; even when they get jobs they are often underemployed, many being forced into part-time and temporary jobs when they want full-time.


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/unemployment-will-scar-us-for-years-9350816.html


----------



## eskdave (May 12, 2014)

I heard goings-on in the kitchen area-it transpired -after a very heavy  Post Mittelwoch Session-I dared to venture to the area-and discovered my Very Significant Other-doing the dishes-I blantantly stuttered "Oh-Women -Work-then- Hun"-The riposte was" At least I have a job"


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 15, 2014)

Another DWP whistleblower exposing the pressure on JCP staff to sanction people:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/stitching-up-claimants-part-job-says-3537051#ixzz31gnbFlVo



> “We were constantly told ‘agitate the customer’ and that ‘any engagement with the customer is an opportunity to sanction’,” he told them.


----------



## Celyn (May 15, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Another DWP whistleblower exposing the pressure on JCP staff to sanction people:
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/stitching-up-claimants-part-job-says-3537051#ixzz31gnbFlVo



That's scary.   Going anywhere near Jobcentre would 'agitate' anyone more than enough.


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 15, 2014)

What can be done? The Tories just flat out deny it and the rest of the media has the unemployed cat as scroungers so as to smear any such claims, or otherwise justify treatment thereof because they are scroungers. 

McVile is on Qt tonight. Normally, desperate being a farce, I do watch.  In shall make an exception. 

The Express'headline yesterday wax just as vile. It never seems to end. There's no guarantee we can get this government out so this terror will continue. I fear militant action, from within or without,will be the only way.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 15, 2014)

This whistleblower chap has handed all the evidence he's collected over to Smith and McVey which seems like the best possible way to ensure it all gets shredded immediately.

And there have been more or less identical revelations before. The worst that will happen is that the DWP claim that this is an ioslated fuck up at one jobcentre and then bury the whole thing. PCS need to grow some balls on this one, their staff are being required to do unethical and quite possibly illegal things as a matter of course.


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 15, 2014)

There is no fucking way the tories will believe what he says or do anything. I'm sure they pretended to listen, but it's all going to be treated as hearsay and anecdote and thus ignored.

The PCS really really needs to get it's arse into gear. This affects their staff as well as their 'customers'.

Or of course it's all Labour's fault, no money left, scroungers, hardworking families, liam byrne's note, welfarism, paying down our debts, etc.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 15, 2014)

Interesting to compare UK to other EU countries, and also see the critical impact of income redistribution on poverty levels:


http://npi.org.uk/visualisations/poverty-trends-eu/


----------



## treelover (May 21, 2014)

> *The act that took the most planning*
> "That has to be the Atos questionnaire. We wanted to assess the assessors, to see if they were up to the job. We worked with [disability activists] WOWpetition on this, to find disabled people who had been through the process, to create a form that was easy to read; there was a braille version and Alexei Sayle did the audio version. Then we had professors in Sheffield breaking down the answers academically.
> We presented the findings to the parliamentary committee and they have published them on their website, which is a fantastic result, and so now it's covered by partial parliamentary privilege. This is where I disagree with Russell Brand – our parliament is deeply flawed, but the ruling class loves you if you don't vote, so that's the least you can do, and there are parliamentary committees you can get stuck into, you can use the system.
> We've got all the data and stats – things like a fifth of Atos buildings didn't have disabled access, 95% of people going for an Atos assessment said the assessor hadn't read any medical records before they started. There's very much an agenda of demonising the poor and the weakest at the moment, and to fight back academically is interesting."
> ...



Apparently Mark Thomas on his latest tour undertook a project to develop a questionnaire for ATOS assessors, it has been posted on a parliamentary committee website

kudos to him and his team.


----------



## krink (May 22, 2014)

here's another reminder why it is important to keep up the protests against this crap - saw a woman today who has been sanctioned one month for missing 1 day of a 'find work' programme - she was actually at work that day (she works part time). she is devastated. what a sick way to run things.


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 22, 2014)

krink said:


> here's another reminder why it is important to keep up the protests against this crap - saw a woman today who has been sanctioned one month for missing 1 day of a 'find work' programme - she was actually at work that day (she works part time). she is devastated. what a sick way to run things.


Has she appealed. Given the success rate of such appeals, certinly under these circumstances (which is basically an awful foreshadowing of the Universal Credit scheme), she would win I think.


----------



## krink (May 22, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Has she appealed. Given the success rate of such appeals, certinly under these circumstances (which is basically an awful foreshadowing of the Universal Credit scheme), she would win I think.



i think she has and yes, she would probably win it. But what a stressful experience to have to go through for something that should really be so simple.


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 22, 2014)

Indeed. She shouldn't have to go through any of this. Noone should. But that case represents exactly what I fear people on UC will face: being required to compromise their job or lose their pittance.


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 29, 2014)

If this isn't irony, I'm a canadian singer songwriter!



> In an extraordinary attack on the paper, Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) communications chief Richard Caseby said *"ineptitude or ideology" *were to blame for what he deemed mistakes in the paper's coverage of the DWP's cuts to benefits.





And the clock struck thirteen.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 29, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> If this isn't irony, I'm a canadian singer songwriter!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nah, it's a rather simple manifestation of projecting blame.  It is indeed "ineptitude and ideology" that have driven coverage. Unfortunately for Caseby, those factors are situated firmly in his dept, not in the way the media have covered the story.


----------



## Limerick Red (Jun 2, 2014)

http://southlondonrcg.tumblr.com/post/87512240545/trying-to-get-answers-from-peckham-jobcentre

Some great actions in recent weeks at Peckham job centre


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 2, 2014)

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/minister-scared-to-face-committee-165609n.24361300

Esther McVile always happy to talk. just not to the poor.


----------



## treelover (Jun 2, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> If this isn't irony, I'm a canadian singer songwriter!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If he is a public servant, which I think he is, then he should be challenged back by the Guardian for 'politicising' his role.


----------



## treelover (Jun 4, 2014)

> PIP is in a mess. We all know it and only the DWP try to deny it.
> But the surest signs that panic is beginning to set in is the fact that Capita have now more than doubled the pay they are offering to assessors in their attempt to get on top of the backlog. Capita health professionals now have a ‘_new incentive scheme’ _which means they can earn up to £900 a day. Not bad for physiotherapists more accustomed to earning £40 an hour.
> In addition, the DWP have rewritten their guidance to assessors in the hope of persuading them to carry out fewer face-to-face medicals and assess more people just on paper evidence, backed up by a telephone call to the claimant to get additional information where necessary.  Currently 98% of PIP assessments are face-to-face, but the DWP is aiming for this figure to drop to around 75%.  This means a big increase in the number of PIP claimants who will be getting a call out of the blue from an Atos or Capita health professional.
> We’ll be updating our guide to claiming PIP with more information about how decisions will be made about who gets a face-to-face medical and also with suggestions about how to deal with a phone call from a PIP health professional, by the end of the week.
> ...



latest from benefits and work newsletter, assessors can now make 900 pounds a day, ffs, and G'P are charging for ESA appeals, the new Lords Of Poverty!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 4, 2014)

Fuck me, how much?

What were they earning prior?

Do we know if the ESA reassessment process is still stalled?


----------



## existentialist (Jun 4, 2014)

treelover said:


> latest from benefits and work newsletter, assessors can now make 900 pounds a day, ffs, and G'P are charging for ESA appeals, the new Lords Of Poverty!


TBF, GPs are reporting absolutely massive levels of demand for documentation and reports for ESA type appeals, and most doctors aren't quite the rich git fat cats we tend to assume they are: many practices are small businesses, not just doctors raking in a big salary, and the time and admin necessary to do these appeals - and which isn't part of their normal contracted NHS work, so what they're paid doesn't account for it - is pretty huge.

Many doctors do try to do what they can, but there's a limit to what they CAN do, and the BMA has been banging on for ages about the way the DWP are doing things and the effect it's having on both their patients, *and* general practice.

No, the blame for this lies, as ever, right back at the door of the venal and unprincipled DWP.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 5, 2014)

IDS vs The Big Issue.



> *Iain Duncan Smith has criticised the Big Issue magazine saying that it provides a way for immigrants from eastern Europe to claim benefits in Britain.
> *
> Mr Duncan Smith said the magazine was being used "more and more" as a foothold for Romanians and other Europeans to access tax credits.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 5, 2014)




----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 8, 2014)

http://refuted.org.uk/2014/06/07/jobsearchpilot/



> *Dystopian 35 Hours a Week Supervised Jobsearch for Jobseeker’s Allowance Pilot*
> Posted on 07/06/2014  by www.refuted.org.uk
> *The Supervised Jobsearch Pilot Scheme*
> 
> ...


----------



## BigTom (Jun 8, 2014)

Unending workfare. 



> 6. (1) The Secretary of State may select a claimant (“C”) on a sampling basis for participation in the Scheme if the following conditions are met.
> 
> (2) The first condition is that C has reached the age of 18.
> 
> ...



So over 18 and not on the work programme - they'll say this is for long term unemployed but it could apply from day 1 until referral to WP.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 8, 2014)

I'm surprised it doesn't - presumably because that will clash with WP contracts.

Really this is just the privatisation of welfare. The WP is a dismal failure so they reward it by basically giving the same bunch of people (same people running hese new schemes as run the WP locally - Jobfit, depending on who they subcontract to) more contracts to further line their pockets. Surely at this point IDS has overreached himself. How are these companies going to manage 35 hour a week supervised jobsearches as well as finding workfare placem,ents with a community service remit?


----------



## BigTom (Jun 8, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I'm surprised it doesn't - presumably because that will clash with WP contracts.
> 
> Really this is just the privatisation of welfare. The WP is a dismal failure so they reward it by basically giving the same bunch of people (same people running hese new schemes as run the WP locally - Jobfit, depending on who they subcontract to) more contracts to further line their pockets. Surely at this point IDS has overreached himself. How are these companies going to manage 35 hour a week supervised jobsearches as well as finding workfare placem,ents with a community service remit?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 8, 2014)

DWP once again refusing to disclose information about universal credit.

http://www.24dash.com/news/universa...-accommodation-changes-explained#.U5RzwB_zsUQ



> Responding to a freedom of information request, which also wanted to know how many people were receiving UC payments more frequently than once a month and the number who were having their rent paid direct to their landlord, the DWP said official statistics would be published "in due course" and wanted to ensure that it was a "properly planned and managed process".
> 
> The DWP said: "There are public interest arguments against disclosure of this information at the present time. These arguments include that it is in the public interest to adhere to the existing publication process for official statistics, which includes time for the data to be collated and properly verified.
> 
> "It is also in the public interest to ensure that the publication of official information is a properly planned and managed process, to ensure that the data is accurate once placed into the public domain.



So although the public are interested in how many UC claimants are having to get payments by other means, it's in the public interest not to tell them?


----------



## existentialist (Jun 9, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> DWP once again refusing to disclose information about universal credit.
> 
> http://www.24dash.com/news/universa...-accommodation-changes-explained#.U5RzwB_zsUQ
> 
> ...


TBF, "interested public" is not the same as "public interest", but you could apply the DWP argument to ANY FOIA request - it's not the point, though.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 9, 2014)

Really hard hitting programme called Breadline Kids on Channel 4 atm


----------



## Dr Jon (Jun 11, 2014)

> A leading aid charity is facing an investigation by the Charity Commission after Tory MPs complained about a poster campaign attacking the Government's austerity drive.


FFS


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 11, 2014)

"shameful abuse of taxpayer's money"

Said a *TORY!*


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 11, 2014)

Interesting take on universal credit.

http://uk-condemnation.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/dwp-believes-universal-credit-is-dead.html


----------



## treelover (Jun 13, 2014)

Aide to Duncan Smith.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 13, 2014)

Threatened to shut down a foodbank? How the fuck?

Can't we apply the same logic to the Tories?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jun 13, 2014)

We're trying.  *edit* he threatened to shut down ALL Trussell foodbanks. Hundreds of them.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 13, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> We're trying.  *edit* he threatened to shut down ALL Trussell foodbanks. Hundreds of them.


Touchy so and so, just because the Trussel Trust had the nerve to say how much food they'd given out and how the people they saw were generally in need because of the DWP.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jun 13, 2014)

Tories don't like the truth up 'em.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 16, 2014)

What the fuck is this? 



> Richard Bristow, the manager of Poole Citizens’ Advice Bureau, cited a case where a man with learning disabilities was living on a paste made from flour and water after his benefits were suspended and another where a woman with breast cancer was forced to stop chemotherapy because she was assessed as ineligible for benefits.



How the hell can the DWP force people to stop chemotherapy? That cna't be legal!


----------



## Greebo (Jun 16, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> <snip> How the hell can the DWP force people to stop chemotherapy? That cna't be legal!


It's forcing a stop in treatment by proxy, in the same way as the increased suicide rate since ESA and ATOS assessments came in is murder by proxy.  If you can't afford to get yourself there, and if you're too sick/fatigued to make the journey, you're prevented just as much as if you were locked out of the hospital.

Travel to and from hospital isn't free, nor (often) is parking.  Even if you're eligible to get travel expense refunded (VP is) it's so much trouble and the staff are frequently so rude that a lot of people (including VP, and you know how much it takes to put him off) don't ask for the refund.

Getting a GP's letter to say that you're too sick to use public transport (and therefore need hospital transport by one of the minibus type ambulances) requires you to drag yourself down to the surgery in the same week as your hospital appointment, just to get the doctor's letter.  If you're too sick to use public transport, that little trip to the GP will often leave you unfit for the journey to your outpatients appointment.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2014)

http://www.cornishman.co.uk/Food-crisis-worsens-handouts-climb-77/story-21225383-detail/story.html



> EMERGENCY food handouts in the South West rose by a shocking 77 per cent last year and up to three times previous figures in some parts of Cornwall, new figures show.
> 
> The number of people receiving free meals from foodbanks in the region soared from 59,532 to 105,521, the study by the Trussell Trust Christian charity found.
> 
> More than 20 million emergency parcels containing provisions to last for three days were dished out across the country in the year to March, feeding 300,000 children – a 54 per cent increase on the previous 12 months.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2014)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britains-breadline-kids-up-5-3660605



> The true plight of Breadline Britain’s destitute children is exposed today.
> 
> A shocking 3.5 million youngsters are living in poverty in this country - and experts predict that figure will soar to 5 million by 2020.
> 
> ...


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 16, 2014)

Greebo said:


> It's forcing a stop in treatment by proxy, in the same way as the increased suicide rate since ESA and ATOS assessments came in is murder by proxy.  If you can't afford to get yourself there, and if you're too sick/fatigued to make the journey, you're prevented just as much as if you were locked out of the hospital.
> 
> Travel to and from hospital isn't free, nor (often) is parking.  Even if you're eligible to get travel expense refunded (VP is) it's so much trouble and the staff are frequently so rude that a lot of people (including VP, and you know how much it takes to put him off) don't ask for the refund.
> 
> Getting a GP's letter to say that you're too sick to use public transport (and therefore need hospital transport by one of the minibus type ambulances) requires you to drag yourself down to the surgery in the same week as your hospital appointment, just to get the doctor's letter.  If you're too sick to use public transport, that little trip to the GP will often leave you unfit for the journey to your outpatients appointment.


I wish i knew more about the case mentioned.

I hope her GP and consultants are on the case. This is fucking insanity. There must be a legal case to answer here. if someone can't get to their chemo appointments!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 17, 2014)

Here's a company called Mego that thinks running some employment hub facility that charges the unemployed £30 for a CV and two quid for a coffee will solve unemployment!



> Chris Leonard, managing director of Mego, said the results were "not surprising" and said: "It's a microcosm of what's happening in every city in the country."
> 
> But he stressed there was a difference in ambition between people in London and Plymouth, for instance, and said: "There's regional differences and possibly a different culture here. People are less driven here."
> 
> ...



So just plant some happy seeds in the compost of your consciousness! Maybe that way those overpaid children in Brazil might miraculously win something!


----------



## tufty79 (Jun 17, 2014)

private employment consultancy in money charging shocka 






			
				Awesome Wells said:
			
		

> So just plant some happy seeds in the compost of your consciousness! Maybe that way those overpaid children in Brazil might miraculously win something!


wut?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 17, 2014)

Just a joke about that world cup thingy and how a team of fabulously wealthy people seem never to meet the expectations fans put on them.


----------



## Imagine (Jun 17, 2014)

New report and campaign from Mind:



> *People need support, not sanctions*
> 
> Catherine Hale, a Work Programme service user, has produced a new report about back-to-work programmes for people with disabilities and health conditions. Mind has supported her with this vital work to help bring about changes to back-to-work support for people with mental health problems.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Jun 17, 2014)

They are completely ignoring the charities, who it should be remembered largely colluded with the reforms when it was NL who were introducing them, thus weakening any later response. The Tories are determined to push through with all this no matter what the 'collateral' damage.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 18, 2014)

treelover said:


> They are completely ignoring the charities, who it should be remembered largely colluded with the reforms when it was NL who were introducing them, thus weakening any later response. The Tories are determined to push through with all this no matter what the 'collateral' damage.



I'll just add here that "colluded", while accurate, is simplistic, and that we should acknowledge that most of those charities tied themselves into a double-bind when they bought into the whole Blairite "3rd sector" shite at the beginning of the new Labour hegemony.  As soon as they started bidding to supply services, they became dependent on those same contracts.  Their collusion was a direct function of that dependency.


----------



## treelover (Jun 18, 2014)

> *The Cancer Teen: Dad lost his job to care for me*
> Schoolgirl Niomi could be forgiven for lashing out with anger that she’s been dealt such a rough hand so young, but what she feels more than anything is guilt.
> Because since being diagnosed with leukaemia last year, she and her 12-year-old brother Drey and single dad Tom have been thrust into poverty.
> Tom, 39, had worked for years as a gardener. But when his daughter’s illness meant she could spend every day in hospital enduring gruelling treatment, he gave it up so she wasn’t alone. “Dad is on benefits because he can’t get a job because he is looking after me,” explains 14-year-old Niomi.
> ...



Monsters, no words.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jun 18, 2014)

*PCS Help for claimants to know their rights*
* 17 June 2014 *

We have teamed up with Unite's unemployed workers section to provide advice to people whose benefits have been stopped.
A leaflet produced by Unite Community and our reps in the Department for Work and Pensions is being distributed across the country and is available on this website.

As well as providing guidance about social security rules and legislation, it offers help on challenging sanctions and what to do if benefits are stopped.

It adds: "Don't face sanctions alone. If you work with other unemployed people you can get support and challenge the injustice of sanctioning."

The leaflet forms part of our campaign against the government's increasingly punitive changes to social security, including the use of sanctions.

In a recent survey of our members in jobcentres 70% of respondents said they believed sanctions had no positive impact and almost two thirds had experienced pressure to refer claimants for a sanction inappropriately.

*Download the leaflet*
PCS and Unite Community sanctions leaflet


----------



## yield (Jun 20, 2014)

Poverty hits twice as many British households as 30 years ago
The Guardian, Thursday 19 June 2014   


> The number of British households falling below minimum living standards has more than doubled in the past 30 years, despite the size of the economy increasing twofold, a study on poverty and deprivation in the UK claims .
> 
> According to the study, 33% of households endure below-par living standards – defined as going without three or more "basic necessities of life", such as being able to adequately feed and clothe themselves and their children, and to heat and insure their homes. In the early 1980s, the comparable figure was 14%.





> The research, billed as the most detailed study ever of poverty in the UK, claims that almost 18 million Britons live in inadequate housing conditions and that 12 million are too poor to take part in all the basic social activities – such as entertaining friends or attending all the family occasions they would wish to. It suggests that one in three people cannot afford to heat their homes properly, while 4 million adults and children are not able to eat healthily.


----------



## treelover (Jun 20, 2014)

Yet the Guardian is endorsing Millibands stopping JSA to youths,


----------



## NoXion (Jun 20, 2014)

Endorsing how?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jun 20, 2014)

NoXion said:


> Endorsing how?


by reporting it like he said it.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 24, 2014)

Another day, another nightmare for someone.

http://glynismillward189.wordpress....lied-by-government-into-proving-he-cant-work/



> Fred says that after yet another demand, he eventually took James – who was born without optic nerves – to their local Jobcentre to prove his point.
> 
> The woman behind the counter burst into tears when she saw James, said Fred.
> 
> ...


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 25, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Another day, another nightmare for someone.
> 
> http://glynismillward189.wordpress....lied-by-government-into-proving-he-cant-work/



The woman at the jobcentre bursting into tears says a lot.  They're not all heartless bastards.  I've had several advisers and most of them think it's horrendous what this government are doing and one of them has admitted being upset to the point of tears.  In fact I've been close to tears in a jobcentre before and that set my adviser off too although she hid it well.  I'm sure there's a significant number of staff who feel like this spread across the country.  It's a bit late now of course but if only they had organised and refused to implement these changes they could've made a huge impact.


----------



## treelover (Jun 26, 2014)

Posts on local forums are claiming a street in Woodthorpe, Sheffield is being 'approached as the next ahem location(target) for Benefit Street. Hope they tell them were to go.


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2014)

> 'A neurotic authoritarian who wants to be powerful and expects to be obeyed'
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/28/iain-duncan-smith-stubborn-fool-not-statesman




Nick Cohen on Smith.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 28, 2014)

treelover said:


> Nick Cohen on Smith.


Too afraid of IDS' hatchet men: that article's comment section is already closed!


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jun 28, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Too afraid of IDS' hatchet men: that article's comment section is already closed!


They often close articles comments overnight if it's a touchy subject. Some newspapers don't have comments on IDS articles, can't imagine why


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jun 29, 2014)

Excellent report, pics and vids from Kate Belgrave. SaveILF Westminster Abbey protest. https://www.facebook.com/kate.belgrave

""Why I don't do God reason #100000000000: Video and pics from today's protest at Westminster Abbey - the police stomp on tents, rush disabled protestors who are desperate to save their care funding - and the church just lets it happen.""

http://www.katebelgrave.com/2014/06...ice-at-the-westminster-abbey-saveilf-protest/


Guardian article and surprising BBC article


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 29, 2014)

Cops letting disabled protesters, denying their support workers access as well as preventing food and water getting through. Utterly disgusting.

Fuck god and his army of willing cunts.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 30, 2014)

Tory toff scrounger about to evict a bunch of families.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...e-eviction-after-3786578#.U7D40btre2I.twitter


----------



## StoneRoad (Jun 30, 2014)

More unpleasant tinkering ..............
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27289148

How can they say, "average of 25 hrs / week" ?
Zero hours contracts (even non-exclusive ones) are no use if you have any sort of fixed outgoings.
How are you expected to budget (or keep up your Wonga repayments - so they can fund the tory twunts) on a variable wage ?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 30, 2014)

StoneRoad said:


> More unpleasant tinkering ..............
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27289148
> 
> How can they say, "average of 25 hrs / week" ?
> ...


Was it ever otherwise? Any claimant who refuses a job will always get sanctioned. They have never cared what the circumstances are, they just hit the big red SANCTION! button.


----------



## BigTom (Jun 30, 2014)

StoneRoad said:


> More unpleasant tinkering ..............
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27289148
> 
> *How can they say, "average of 25 hrs / week" ?*
> ...



Do a survey with a big enough sample size of people who have zero-hours contracts, asking them how many hours they worked last week (or if you wanted to do it properly, track people through a year and record their hours each week), average out the answer. 

Awesome - you can currently refuse zero-hours contracts jobs, they want to change this. You can refuse jobs for a limited set of reasons which are set out in the JSA regulations, guidelines or legislation. It includes things like sex work or allowances of refusal on religious/ethical grounds eg: vegan should be able to refuse to work in an abbatoir (I say "should be" because I think it's definitely true that they can but I'm not certain enough and can't be bothered to check).
I bet lots of people have been sanctioned for refusing a ZHC job, but it's one that should be won on appeal (not that I'm saying it's ok because of appeals, they take fucking weeks or more and you don't get money in that time, plus HB stops which you have to sort out etc).


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 30, 2014)

Exactly. It doesn't matter what their rules say; if you refuse a job they will refer you to a DM and because your money is stopped in the interim (something that Labour changed) you're fucked.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 30, 2014)




----------



## Awesome Wells (Jun 30, 2014)

Scathing; shame then it will fall on deaf ears.

What was the outcome of this debate, a anything?


----------



## existentialist (Jul 1, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Scathing; shame then it will fall on deaf ears.
> 
> What was the outcome of this debate, a anything?


Duncan Smith's ears may be deaf, but there will be people who will listen to what Jackson says - it's all part of the steady drip-drip that will eventually see him buried. Not soon enough for me or a lot of the country, sadly, but we are getting there.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 1, 2014)

existentialist said:


> Duncan Smith's ears may be deaf, but there will be people who will listen to what Jackson says - it's all part of the steady drip-drip that will eventually see him buried. Not soon enough for me or a lot of the country, sadly, but we are getting there.


The only way to bury him is to vote him and his government (which would include this repugnant Benton character) out.

Unfortunately that means voting labour.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2014)

What if you live in a safe tory seat,  as you do? This daft approach means that millions of people,  including you,  cannot participate in politics.


----------



## treelover (Jul 1, 2014)

Smith's 'Centre For Social Justice' is proposing stopping benefits for under 25 year olds.

btw, why does it need a think tank to investigate this, cutting benefits doesn't need research, these think tanks are dangerous.


----------



## treelover (Jul 1, 2014)

Glenda Jackson savaging Smith in parliament

note how few M.P's are there


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 1, 2014)

treelover said:


> note how few M.P's are there


On both sides, especially as Rachel Reeves called this (iirc).


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 1, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What if you live in a safe tory seat,  as you do? This daft approach means that millions of people,  including you,  cannot participate in politics.


other than stakling every post i make to bully and harass me, your alternative is what? youre a joke


----------



## StoneRoad (Jul 1, 2014)

I live in a very safe tory seat, however I vote, we'll not unseat the twunt.
No possible protest / tactical / alternative choice available for my vote.

So what should I do ?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 1, 2014)

StoneRoad said:


> I live in a very safe tory seat, however I vote, we'll not unseat the twunt.
> No possible protest / tactical / alternative choice available for my vote.
> 
> So what should I do ?


I don't know.

I wish there was an alternative. Despite my asking, noone has provided one.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 1, 2014)

The hansard of Yesterdays DWP performance debate *30/06/2014*

http://www.publications.parliament....140630/debtext/140630-0002.htm#14063023000001


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I don't know.
> 
> I wish there was an alternative. Despite my asking, noone has provided one.



Wrong.  people have provided you with alternatives, and you've dismissed them.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 2, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I don't know.
> 
> I wish there was an alternative. Despite my asking, noone has provided one.


Is it the job of other people to provide you with alternatives?

Sometimes, the answer is to find different ways of looking at the problem, and nobody else can really do that for anyone.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 2, 2014)

existentialist said:


> Is it the job of other people to provide you with alternatives?
> 
> Sometimes, the answer is to find different ways of looking at the problem, and nobody else can really do that for anyone.


It's not a job, it's what people do when they talk and discuss things. I don't pretend to be an expert and have never professed to be. Ever. So if there's a better alternative - tell me! That's dialogue. 

All I get from this site it seems is "FUCK OFF YOU CAAAAAAAAAAAAAHNT LABOUR ARE SHITTERS!!"

Where are the solutions? DOes anyone have anything better to offer? I'm not criticising people who don't unless they dish out that kind of shit as a response. We're not all experts and we don't all know the answers, but the problem is that if you don't vote Labour or if you don't vote then the TOries will get back in, and we enable the likes of Benyon by legitimising them through a position they don't merit, we enable that fucking maniac IDS to continue to bash and sneer at the less well off. 

I think it would be the worst outcome for that to happen and I am willing to risk a vote for Labour, safe seats notwithstanding (which is out of our hands), if that keeps the Tories out.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 2, 2014)

I cannot stand either of them and am seriously hoping for a YES vote at Indyref. If it's a NO vote I will definitely vote labour as there's a better chance of them listening to those most brutalised over recent years than trying to make IDS and his cohorts take any notice. 

It's shit that there's only a choice of two and the one most likely to lend an ear can be the only option. 

In any/all events I, and others, will still need to rant. I've no answers, but, I've a whole barn full of questions.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 8, 2014)

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2014...s-iain-duncan-smith-s-welfare-scheme-in-doubt



> Last month, employment minister Esther McVey insisted to parliament that the Treasury had approved the government's flagship welfare reform.
> 
> In a written answer to Labour's Rachel Reeves, she claimed that "the chief secretary to the Treasury has approved the [universal credit] Strategic Outline Business Case".
> 
> ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2014)

Fedayn said:


> http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2014...s-iain-duncan-smith-s-welfare-scheme-in-doubt



So basically McVey has taken a page out of her boss's book, and is telling wholesale untruths about Universal Credit?
Now there's a surprise!


----------



## treelover (Jul 11, 2014)

any more on this?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2014)

I'd like to like this, but "someone called Esther apparently wants to take over the role" makes me not like it


----------



## BigTom (Jul 11, 2014)

Be nice but I'll believe it when it happens, and I agree with Minnie, the apparent not-knowing of who Iain and Esther are combined with the knowing that some people would want to know about this makes me


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 11, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Be nice but I'll believe it when it happens, and I agree with Minnie, the apparent not-knowing of who Iain and Esther are combined with the knowing that some people would want to know about this makes me




the beeb has IDS going but no word on esther replacing- IDS is supposed to be off to defence


----------



## BigTom (Jul 11, 2014)

oh ok, well that may be different then, I thought this was just some facebook post.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> the beeb has IDS going but no word on esther replacing- IDS is supposed to be off to defence



He'll be sending troops to war zones in  just their underwear in an effort to save money


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 11, 2014)

Read on Beeb that McVague may be going the Miller route to Culture.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 11, 2014)

didn't uberMensch briefly have Culture & media?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 11, 2014)

Thats where Maria Miller. Ex minister for disability, was sacked/stepped down from. Mike Penning got her job in DWP.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Read on Beeb that McVague may be going the Miller route to Culture.



She'd have cancelled the Olympics if she got there sooner!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 11, 2014)

I wish she'd go the Miller route and resign.


----------



## treelover (Jul 12, 2014)

Its Sunday so it is time for another leak form the DWP to the right wing Sunday papers, this time, its the Telegraph, "Accept therapy or have benefits axed",

If its not kite flying hope someone takes it up as a human rights issue, going more like the old eastern bloc countries all the time


----------



## Greebo (Jul 13, 2014)

treelover said:


> Its Sunday so it is time for another leak form the DWP to the right wing Sunday papers, this time, its the Telegraph, "Accept therapy or have benefits axed" <snip>


Old news to me, I heard something about that last year.  No, I didn't keep track of the source; why should I when nobody wanted to listen?


----------



## StoneRoad (Jul 13, 2014)

treelover said:


> Its Sunday so it is time for another leak form the DWP to the right wing Sunday papers, this time, its the Telegraph, "Accept therapy or have benefits axed",
> 
> If its not kite flying hope someone takes it up as a human rights issue, going more like the old eastern bloc countries all the time



That assumes there is something accessible to you - waiting lists for some of these services can be significant - and are they expecting enforced therapy to work, or will the next stage be if you're not "cured" then you get sanctioned ?
I can also see some of the nastier staff seizing another the opportunity to sanction you; should your treatment and work search / signing on appointments clash .........


----------



## Greebo (Jul 13, 2014)

StoneRoad said:


> That assumes there is something accessible to you - waiting lists for some of these services can be significant - and are they expecting enforced therapy to work, or will the next stage be if you're not "cured" then you get sanctioned ?
> I can also see some of the nastier staff seizing another the opportunity to sanction you; should your treatment and work search / signing on appointments clash .........


It also assumes that the officially approved treatment is appropriate for you - people with M.E. are still being forced to accept SSRIs, CBT, and exercise as the only treatment which NICE permits.  Odd when that only works for (Oxford Criteria) Chronic Fatigue, not for M.E/CFS (Ramsey criteria).  All well and good, except that the NICE-approved treatment can exacerbate the illness, to the point where patients are unable to complete the treatment.

BTW I agree that both of the outcomes you suggest are highly probable.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 14, 2014)

Thanks to all these cuts they've managed to save £1.1bn.  Thankfully they're not frittering it away on expensive toys or anything.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28289331

It must be some comfort queuing at the foodbank and knowing that at least the money they've taken off you is going to a noble cause, lining the pockets of the board of Lockheed Martin et al.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 14, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> Thanks to all these cuts they've managed to save £1.1bn.  Thankfully they're not frittering it away on expensive toys or anything.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28289331
> 
> It must be some comfort queuing at the foodbank and knowing that at least the money they've taken off you is going to a noble cause, lining the pockets of the board of Lockheed Martin et al.



It's only right. I know i'd feel better, as one of the many now so desperate they start opening their parcels and eating them on site, that the country is prioritising death and destruction over the welfare of it's own citizens. How else is Britain supposed to get back on it's feet?

Clearly this is all Labour's fault, giving money to the City who then give it to the tories to blame Labour for giving money to the City...


----------



## treelover (Jul 14, 2014)

Greebo said:


> It also assumes that the officially approved treatment is appropriate for you - people with M.E. are still being forced to accept SSRIs, CBT, and exercise as the only treatment which NICE permits.  Odd when that only works for (Oxford Criteria) Chronic Fatigue, not for M.E/CFS (Ramsey criteria).  All well and good, except that the NICE-approved treatment can exacerbate the illness, to the point where patients are unable to complete the treatment.
> 
> BTW I agree that both of the outcomes you suggest are highly probable.




This forced treatment (Stalinist)was a New Labour idea, I think under Purnell

The thing is on the phone ins they seem to find people with say M/H problems who think it is a positive idea.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 14, 2014)

They are probably people getting no treatment at all who think that this will genuinely put them in touch with support. If there's no help at present, how will this scheme make any difference? What concerns me more is that people will be denied benefits while on the inevitable waiting lists. Support will of course ceom from the same people running the likes of the Work Programme, which means it won't be actual clinical/medical help, it will be another 'pep talk' from cunts. The salvation army claimed they had 'health advisers' when i saw them, but that never materialised. Instead their WP people just told me they weren't trained and without a nurse on hand they weren't interested.



treelover said:


> This forced treatment (Stalinist)was a New Labour idea, I think under Purnell
> 
> The thing is on the phone ins they seem to find people with say M/H problems who think it is a positive idea.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2014)

treelover said:


> This forced treatment (Stalinist)was a New Labour idea, I think under Purnell



The "single treatment pathway" was prior to Purnell, and was a health dept decision (under Hutton?) long before Purnell got to the DWP.


----------



## superfly101 (Jul 14, 2014)

This is run as part of the DWPs Health Work Wellbeing program.

Currently INGUS are running the pilots

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...allowance-health-care-pilot-provider-guidance

A quite insightful piece http://www.w2wsolutions.co.uk/news-article/dwp-pilot-scheme-for-esa-claimants/476


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 14, 2014)

superfly101 said:


> This is run as part of the DWPs Health Work Wellbeing program.
> 
> Currently INGUS are running the pilots
> 
> ...


So i was right: privateers are running the show. It's NHS privatisation by the backdoor. I wonder what the DWP work psychology department has to say about this?

According to the guidelines:


> The purpose of the initial interview with the claimant is not to establish a clinical diagnosis.



That doesn't sit right with me. It smacks of disability denial. 

It's just the Work Programme: get the claimant to sign an action plan and a programme of support of some kind. I would hope the patient's GP takes a very good look at this vefore agreeing to allow this. Wishful thinking I guess.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 14, 2014)

http://dwpunspun.org.uk/


----------



## treelover (Jul 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> So i was right: privateers are running the show. It's NHS privatisation by the backdoor. I wonder what the DWP work psychology department has to say about this?
> 
> According to the guidelines:
> 
> ...




Are there any objections to this, the BMA?, the RCP, etc?


----------



## treelover (Jul 14, 2014)

http://www.diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/

Just been looking at Sue Marsh's site, 'Diary of a Benefit Scrounger', no mention of this, but very weird stuff about a cross party campaign with no clear details.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 14, 2014)

treelover said:


> http://www.diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/
> 
> Just been looking at Sue Marsh's site, 'Diary of a Benefit Scrounger', no mention of this, but very weird stuff about a cross party campaign with no clear details.


Yeah I'm not following that at all.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 15, 2014)

She, Marsh, was tweeting on twatter about approaching UKIP to schmooze for support with Spartacus, WOW, Beyond Barriers etc. 

All of the above are under a new label now. The name escapes me for the moment.

Atos keep the contract providing IT services to support work capability assessments after it steps down as the main supplier next year.

LIMA lives on.. 


*DWP awards Atos £10 million IT contract for healthcare assessments*

*Atos to continue providing IT for controversial work capability tests despite paying to exit contract early*


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 15, 2014)

Wha?

I don't get that at all; do they own the LIMA software out something?

TBF I don't think Sue is a fan of ukip, at least I hope not. Though I'm not entirely sure what she's trying to achieve since such cross party support is ridiculous.

Someone on here was sceptical about her but never got find to explaining fully why. Is it just because she is somewhat close to labour?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 15, 2014)

Yeah AW. Lima is an Atos built software designed with UNUM disability denial tactics in mind. New contractors will use it in future WCAs.

Yep, I'm very sceptical of Sue Marsh.

Sparty, WOW, Breaking Barriers etc, seem to be off doing what they think best regardless of the thoughts of other disability groups or people. It's all become very academic political.

The Breaking Barriers paper was, to many, WCA MkII with added social workers in your knicker drawer.


----------



## superfly101 (Jul 15, 2014)

What don't you get? 

The DWP own the rights to the LIMA software.

ATOS developed and maintain LIMA for the DWP - the DWP paid/pays them to do this. 
ATOS pays the DWP a fee to use LIMA in it test centers.
ATOS also pays the DWP for the exclusive 3rd party distribution license on LIMA.

What this means in practice is.......

You want to use LIMA - you pay ATOS for the privilege as it holds the distribution license. ATOS then pays a set fee to the DWP for that privilege. 

Now ATOS will have done a deal with the DWP to develop/maintain/fix LIMA so the DWP pay ATOS to do this.

There's at least 2 contracts here that are completely separate. 

ATOS have given up/walked away from the actual testing of people contract. 

ATOS still have the above IT services contracts.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 15, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Yeah AW. Lima is an Atos built software designed with UNUM disability denial tactics in mind. New contractors will use it in future WCAs.
> 
> Yep, I'm very sceptical of Sue Marsh.
> 
> ...


Well, to play devil's advocate, she would refute that - presumably. She did an interview with Shouty Taxi Man a couple of months aback where she explicitly acknowledge the problems with labour. 

But this new plan, without her explaining what she wants it sounds ridiculous.


----------



## treelover (Jul 15, 2014)

> *The ‘fight’ against beggars is another vicious New Labour legacy*
> York city council should be ashamed of its lack of compassion towards homeless people – and it’s all part of today’s poor-baiting culture
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/15/fight-beggars-labour-legacy-york?commentpage=1




Good article by SEYMOUR(now with goatee) on begging and N/L's role in public attitudes to the poor


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 16, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Well, to play devil's advocate, she would refute that - presumably. She did an interview with Shouty Taxi Man a couple of months aback where she explicitly acknowledge the problems with labour.
> 
> But this new plan, without her explaining what she wants it sounds ridiculous.


She gets herself out there to be seen. I'll agree with that. It's the message I, and others, don't get. The inner workings of 'the people/group/s that make up Sparty etc. are very academic and political.

Other people/group/s should be heard too. Aspects of these others are seen on many occasions though mostly in the London area, grassroots activists that attend DWP business in Westminster and wave banners.

Seeing ministers from W&P committee actually going to the North to hold meetings was excellent. There should be more of this.
Theyve sent whole green benches up to Scotland to waffle shit at us, so, they could send more dept groups around the rest of the country to see what's actually going on.

Spartacus/wow etc certainly doesn't get the big picture either.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 16, 2014)

I've actually started work this week so am out of Dumbcunt Schitts grasp for however long. I'll stay on welfare activism and watching like a nettle rash though. I'm only a head/body fuck up away from being back on the brutality.


----------



## treelover (Jul 16, 2014)

> *A tale of two careers: Michael Gove and Iain Duncan Smith*
> Both men are passionate and sincere reformers determined to give opportunities to the poor, but only one has been demoted
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/15/tale-of-two-careers-michael-gove-iain-duncan-smith




Guardian political editor Patrick Wintour, who I've always suspected endorses the welfare reforms, blatantly bigs up Duncan Smith.


----------



## treelover (Jul 16, 2014)

The only opportunities that Smith has given to the poor is the opportunity to work for nothing, face sanctions and harassment, and for some to finally give up after such treatment and take their own life with absolute silence from the authorities and a craven media. One day the Guardian may report on the direct consequences of his 'reforms'


----------



## treelover (Jul 16, 2014)

> IDS is the man who stated "Work Frees You," three times in one day.
> He is the man responsible for currently 250 people a week dying between a "fit for work" decision and an appeal date.
> The DWP can sit on the deaths data as long as they like, it just takes some time to work it out using cross referencing across DWP data, Ministry of Justice Data and Office for National Statistics data.
> He can run but he can't hide.




posted on CIF, could these figures be right?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 16, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> She gets herself out there to be seen. I'll agree with that. It's the message I, and others, don't get. The inner workings of 'the people/group/s that make up Sparty etc. are very academic and political.
> 
> Other people/group/s should be heard too. Aspects of these others are seen on many occasions though mostly in the London area, grassroots activists that attend DWP business in Westminster and wave banners.
> 
> ...


What do they not get about the big picture?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 16, 2014)

60% in arrears over the bedroom tax.

Nobody cares.


----------



## treelover (Jul 16, 2014)

> Cuts to legal aid force parents to defend themselves in family court cases
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...themselves-in-family-court-cases-9608175.html


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 16, 2014)

Anyone come across this website?  First time I've come across it

http://dwpunspun.org.uk/


----------



## Greebo (Jul 16, 2014)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Anyone come across this website?  First time I've come across it <snip>


Yes, but only yesterday, I think.  Why?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 17, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Yes, but only yesterday, I think.  Why?



Oh, no particular reason.  Just pointing it out 'cos it's the first time I've seen it


----------



## treelover (Jul 17, 2014)

Its a False Economy project, so TUC, Union backed, so a positive step.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 17, 2014)

IDS wants a 5 week wait if you need to claim Universal Credit after losing (forw hatever reason) your job.

http://act.goingtowork.org.uk/page/s/stopthefiveweekwait


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 17, 2014)

just long enough to have you in rent arrears then eh. what a fucking penis


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> just long enough to have you in rent arrears then eh. what a fucking penis


Not just that, but that's 5 weeks on top of the time it wil subsequently take to process your claim.

And of course they will excuse it because of the big society good works performed by their chums in the private secotr - ie foodbanks.

That's the great tragedy of all this. The existence of that safety net, such as it is (and what else are people supposed to do?), is a gift to people like IDS and the local politicians who will just write a tickt to their local foodbank and pat themselves on the back the reforms are working. It's no solution at all.

Ironically in the past, without this safety net, people would have had to resort to the only kind of action that will unsease this system: riots and mass civil disobedience. People would have pulled down the gates and doors to get to their so-called representatives who would have no choice but to effect change or lose their fucking skin.

This is the most mealy mouthed policy plan. There is no reason for this at all (other than to benefit the pigs), but IDS will push it through if the tories win next year (can he do it sooner). That's a certain. Whether Labour have anything similar in mind or whether they woudl support it is less certain. Anyone that directly or indirectly contributes to returning people like Duncan Smith should be fucking shot.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> just long enough to have you in rent arrears then eh. what a fucking penis



IDS is thinking about the tens of thousands of pounds payoff he will get when he quits as an MP, and the golden handshakes of his friends. Anyone who doesn't manage to get a contract with such a clause, well that's just their fault isn't it, for not negotiating well enough... 

fucking scum. Utterly ludicrous and won't happen but they are going to keep nudging this waiting time up and up. I can see a trap coming up too, for people who start arguing about the first 6 months being contributions based JSA, directly from what you've paid in, so why should you have to wait? which plays into what Labour have planned to make it something like 2 years max JSA based on NI contributions then nothing.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 21, 2014)

> *Iain Duncan Smith Urged By Senior Tories To Shut All Jobcentres*





> Iain Duncan Smith is reportedly being urged by senior Tories to shut down all Jobcentres and let private companies and charities to step in to help Britain's unemployed back to work.
> 
> The proposal, backed by allies of chancellor George Osborne, is being considered for potential inclusion in the party's election manifesto for 2015, in what would be a radical step for Britain's system to help people into work.




http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...tres-tories-iain-duncan-smith_n_5604778.html?


----------



## BigTom (Jul 21, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...tres-tories-iain-duncan-smith_n_5604778.html?



Been on the cards for a while I think, the Work Programme basically duplicates the work of the JCPs so was only a matter of time before the JCPs got privatised, something I've argued with PCS who still wouldn't oppose the WP. I think if the results from the WP hadn't been worse than the JCP we'd be seeing moves to privatise the JCPs already.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 21, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...tres-tories-iain-duncan-smith_n_5604778.html?



It's worked so well in the US, too!


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 21, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Been on the cards for a while I think, the Work Programme basically duplicates the work of the JCPs so was only a matter of time before the JCPs got privatised, something I've argued with PCS who still wouldn't oppose the WP. I think if the results from the WP hadn't been worse than the JCP we'd be seeing moves to privatise the JCPs already.



Jobcentres _are_ going to be closed. Anyone can see it, all you've got to do is go in one, they're bareley recognisable even from a year ago. No job points, no phone points, no podium jockey at the door to take your papers and direct you where to wait. And where the phonepoints were hasn't even been painted over or owt - You can see where they've been ripped out. A JC now resembles an industrial unit in which a dodgy fly by night company has taken up temporary residence and hasn't bothered to wipe away the traces of the previous company who occupied the unit coz they know they won't be there long. Anyone can see jobcentres are being run down.

Jobcentres - Looking more and more like fly by night illegal firework shops. Well, let's hope it does bring fireworks.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 22, 2014)

Because private companies can't be worse than the JC+... oh dear!


----------



## treelover (Jul 22, 2014)

> *Benefit sanctions hit most vulnerable people the hardest, report says*
> Claimants not told about hardship system and sanctions imposed when they were not at fault, DWP study finds
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/...able-people-hardship-dwp-report?commentpage=1





Hard to believe but Matthew Oakley(policy exchange) has appeared to have done a balanced report on sanctions and their failings for the DWP

wonder if he trying to undermine the job centers.

and of course, there shouldn't be a sanction regime.

and Wintour even gives it a fair summary.


----------



## treelover (Jul 22, 2014)

Other posters on CIF seem to think this is a deliberate attack on the JC's.


----------



## treelover (Jul 22, 2014)

> My son signed on for about 12 months (he is now 'self-employed' as he could not bear all the hassle he was subjected to despite making huge efforts to find work) and he said that the staff at JS+ appeared to be specifically targeting for sanctions the extremely vulnerable such as mentally ill people, people with learning disabilities and people who had not been unemployed before who and who did not know the system. What is more, when he gave advice to people about hardship funds and how to avoid sanctions he was spoken to by JS+ staff and told he was to stop doing this or there would be serious consequences unspecified, but he thought sanctions for him even though he was religiously complying with all their criteria. The system is designed to save money, and the more sanctions there are then the less that is being spent. Similarly, the fewer claims for hardship payments the less that is being spent, while perversely the government can state that as people are not claiming hardship funds then they are not experiencing hardship.



posted on CIf, heartbreaking, hard to defend DWP staff after this.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 22, 2014)

A friend of mine didn't get in Support Group and ended up in WRAG.  He has trouble walking and has arthritis lower limbs and they wanted him to be a security guard.  Couldn't do tat, so they've now plonked him in front of a computer (which he doesn't know how to use) and on a typists stool.  He's willing to learn to type, but can't sit on stool.  Has asked for a fixed leg seat.  They won't provide him with one.  They also questioned him a bit but without reading his medical notes, and they noted down that he takes pills to ward off pain.  He takes pills to EASE the pain.    They didn't bother writing down everything else and that he's on 25 pills a day for various other things.  Also asked him to sign what they had discussed but he didn't have his glasses to read what they'd written, but signed it anyway.  Oh, she also asked him what his phone number is and seemed quite impressed that he could remember it off the top of his head.  He has sod all wrong with his memory and he's old school, remembers numbers from the days everyone didn't have them stored on mobiles.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 23, 2014)

treelover said:


> posted on CIf, heartbreaking, hard to defend DWP staff after this.


There is no defence.

I'd like to see the justification for dancing someone trying to make fellow claimants aware of their rights.


----------



## treelover (Jul 23, 2014)

> I was in a privileged position to observe the dole monsters in action while between jobs the other year. I was only there to claim my due and to ensure my number was counted. During this time I saw or directly experienced the following;
> Sanctions taken against single mothers with sick children.
> Travel expenses denied as getting the job was insufficient evidence of attendance. Or because agreement to pay was not properly recorded.
> Bullying and aggression against the obviously depressedvand suocidal.
> ...



more from CIF posters


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 23, 2014)

> *G4S launches new paper on future commissioning Welfare to Work provision*



http://g4swelfaretowork.com/news/g4...e-of-commissioning-welfare-to-work-provision/


----------



## Betsy (Jul 26, 2014)

Face The Facts on Radio 4 last Wednesday...

_*Charity's New Mission?: Do More, Say Less.*

Gagging clauses, threats of closure and self-censorship imposed through fear of losing funding - John Waite investigates claims by leading figures in the charity sector that they are being silenced. He hears of a "chilling effect" as voluntary organisations fear for their future if they dare to speak out about local or central government policy. Others, however, tell John that more needs to be done to limit political campaigning and that charities need to concentrate more on helping directly, those in need._

_http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b049z4x2_


----------



## 8115 (Jul 26, 2014)

I just saw this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ants-who-refuse-treatment-for-depression.html

Seems to be like a suggestion of something like the work program for depression.  I would be in the streets before this happened, I promise you that.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 26, 2014)

8115 said:


> I just saw this.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ants-who-refuse-treatment-for-depression.html
> 
> Seems to be like a suggestion of something like the work program for depression.  I would be in the streets before this happened, I promise you that.


Oh, I wouldn't worry too much - it won't happen because you can go fucking whistle if you want treatment for depression anyway.


----------



## 8115 (Jul 26, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Oh, I wouldn't worry too much - it won't happen because you can go fucking whistle if you want treatment for depression anyway.




Not if it's provided by A4E.  They won't be able to get you in the door fast enough.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 26, 2014)

8115 said:


> Not if it's provided by A4E.  They won't be able to get you in the door fast enough.


The NHS hasn't been integrated with A4E _quite_ yet.


----------



## _angel_ (Jul 28, 2014)

8115 said:


> I just saw this.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ants-who-refuse-treatment-for-depression.html
> 
> Seems to be like a suggestion of something like the work program for depression.  I would be in the streets before this happened, I promise you that.


What treatment? Where? People would love to get offered some meaningful treatment!


----------



## Greebo (Jul 28, 2014)

_angel_ said:


> What treatment? Where? People would love to get offered some meaningful treatment!


The Emperor's clothes ie, 6 weeks of one-size-fits-all CBT, with a side order of prozac or similar at a one-size-more-or-less-fits-none dosage.

As you said - no meaningful treatment.


----------



## _angel_ (Jul 28, 2014)

I think they're not talking meds but cbt which altho cheap, doesn't work for everyone and still has a waiting list
What about those whom it 'fails' or rather will they be seen as 'failing' to "get well"


If it's even offered.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 28, 2014)

You know the drill, surely?  Whenever the patient fails to improve after being so generously signposted to NICE-approved treatment (eg 'pacing'  a la Wessely) it's neither sheer bad luck nor the clinician's fault.  The patient was wilfully uncooperative as they enjoy "the sick role", it stands to reason.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 28, 2014)

Spot on Greebo.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 28, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Spot on Greebo.


I wish I was wrong.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 28, 2014)

Yeah. Me too.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 29, 2014)

*Government to overhaul benefits sanctions process*
Independent report shows systematic failings in the way benefit sanctions are communicated and processed

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jul/22/independent-report-failings-benefit-sanctions


----------



## Greebo (Jul 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> *Government to overhaul benefits sanctions process *<snip>



I can see a so-called "firmer, faster, fairer" job being done on this, if anything at all is done, similar to the one done on the asylum application and decision process. ie "firmer, faster, fuck off and die quietly".


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 29, 2014)

> *Jobseeker Sanction Advice Home Page*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




http://jobseekersanctionadvice.com/


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jul 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> http://jobseekersanctionadvice.com/


things like that really worry me. absolutely no identifying information about who they are, yet they're saying they will intervene on behalf of sanctioned claimants with dwp and mp's which means claimants handing over lots of extremely personall data to someone off the internet.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 29, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> things like that really worry me. absolutely no identifying information about who they are, yet they're saying they will intervene on behalf of sanctioned claimants with dwp and mp's which means claimants handing over lots of extremely personall data to someone off the internet.



Yeah, I know what you mean... Caution necessary! I was just trying to find out more about them but can't.  I am asking some peeps I know who have been running online groups for the last 2 years and will see what they no.


----------



## treelover (Jul 31, 2014)

> Confirmed, the full impact of the cuts on disabled people
> 
> *Today, at the request of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, (EHRC) NIESR, the National Institute for Economic and Social Research have produced a definitive CIA and it is shocking *equalityhumanrights.com/commission-welcomes-report-financial-policy-making-and-modelling-cumulative-equality-impacts …
> 
> ...



From Sue Marshes blog, Its a bit complex , but it looks like sick and disabled people are fairing the worst.


----------



## treelover (Aug 4, 2014)

> *'No one should die penniless and alone': the victims of Britain's harsh welfare sanctions*
> David Clapson was found dead last year after his benefits were stopped on the grounds that he wasn't taking the search for work seriously. He had an empty stomach, and just £3.44 to his name. Now thousands of other claimants are being left in similarly dire straits by tough new welfare sanctions
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/03/victims-britains-harsh-welfare-sanctions


----------



## treelover (Aug 4, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> things like that really worry me. absolutely no identifying information about who they are, yet they're saying they will intervene on behalf of sanctioned claimants with dwp and mp's which means claimants handing over lots of extremely personall data to someone off the internet.





> One group of former DWP employees has set up a free online advice service, jobseekersanctionadvice.com. The founder, a 54-year-old grandmother who left the DWP in 2011 and who asked to remain anonymous, says she became uncomfortable with having to implement policies that she believed were designed to punish people for making small errors. Last Monday morning the site had 200 emails, most of them requests for assistance, but six of them offers to help staff the site, two of them from former DWP employees.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/03/victims-britains-harsh-welfare-sanctions




Good news , its actually former DWP employees disgusted with the way claimants are being treated, if anyone has a spare few bob I'm sure they would appreciate it for running costs.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 6, 2014)

Something to make you scoff/froth over morning coffee:

* A Selection of Especially Stupid Benefit Sanctions *
_Cruel, arbitrary and ridiculous reasons why people have their benefits stopped_

_



			You are forced to retire due to a heart condition, and you claim Employment and Support Allowance. During your assessment you have a heart attack. You are sanctioned for not completing your assessment.

Source: Debbie Abrahams MP


It’s Christmas Day and you don’t fill in your job search evidence form to show that you’ve looked for all the new jobs that are advertised on Christmas Day. You are sanctioned. Merry Christmas. 

Source: Poverty Alliance

Click to expand...

_
http://stupidsanctions.tumblr.com/


----------



## treelover (Aug 6, 2014)

I went a meeting yesterday about social care, there were parents/siblings there who had family with learning difficulties, they are being treated appallingly, one lad was at remploy, booted out and put on A4E scheme, but no cognisance is being taken of his needs, etc and its sounds like he is being bullied, this is just shameful.


----------



## treelover (Aug 7, 2014)

> Immigration Street TV crew pelted with eggs in Derby Road in Southampton
> 
> http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/11394985.Immigration_Street_TV_crew_pelted_with_eggs/



Oh Dear...


----------



## 8115 (Aug 14, 2014)

Sort of widening the definition of welfare cuts to include NHS:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/14/nhs-eye-operations-private-provider-musgrove

While I'm always sceptical about these kinds of stories, does look worrying.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Aug 26, 2014)

Are the DWP refusing to properly/timely process as a means to cutting costs for the purpose of making UC look cheaper or appear in budget?



> *Out of Phase Rundown*
> 
> What is now happening is that an out of phase rundown of the existing payment systems is increasingly affecting the routine payments for people on JSA and ESA. Have you and/or people you know been keeping your noses clean, meeting the requirements placed upon you by DWP to look for work, getting your sick notes in on time and so on, but have routinely not been being paid on time? Then your claim may have been made clerical.
> 
> Both computer systems have been rejecting claims being set up on them, for reasons sometimes beyond the wit of man, from the moment that they came into use. These claims have to be administered clerically and then, with the aid of a work around, set up on the system proper. Sometimes, the computer has subsequently rejected at a later stage claims that were fine when they were first set up. These claims have to be removed from the system and administered clerically whilst they are rebuilt. Unfortunately, the rejections and clerical administration are bound to result in delayed payments. Some of these effectively change for months the date on which someone may expect to be paid and imagine such delays happening over Christmas, Easter and/or a Bank Holiday weekend.  And some claims are never rebuilt, because the system will not accept them.


http://jodatu.wordpress.com/2014/08...-going-into-meltdown-for-existing-recipients/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2014)

Don't normally do this but the lass that this is about is a good mate and a fantastic campaigner in the North of England and really needs a wee hand. He mum is terminal and her partner is also seriously ill. Possibly terminal too. G is on ESA herself and is caring for both of them, at cost to her health and limited finance. She runs, advises and helps people through this FB page and others and campaigns in the North at every public event.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/477412382381161/

If you have a spare quid please donate lovlies.. xx

http://www.gofundme.com/do4s38


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 2, 2014)

http://annmcgauran.org.uk/2014/08/2...ing-a-sanction-its-bully-boy-tactics-he-says/

60 years old...and fucked. Thanks Iain!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...vestigation-Britain-s-treatment-disabled.html

The Mail, unfortunately, but i've heard about this elsewhere online. It was supposed to be a secret investigation that the UN could neither conforim nor deny. Consequently it now being revealed might jeopardise it.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 3, 2014)

http://intensiveactivity.wordpress....-to-begin-in-east-anglia-in-october/#comments

Despite the clique of arseholes that seem to think this forum is their private pisspot, I will continute to post this stuff. It's important, the arseholes are not.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 4, 2014)

Just been reading some posts in a Anti BT group on fb. One woman is reporting that her local council are offering her £50 to take part in a 6 month trial for Unversial Credit.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 5, 2014)

http://m.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk...e_to_five_or_face_losing_benefits_/?ref=fbshr


----------



## MooChild (Sep 5, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> http://m.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk...e_to_five_or_face_losing_benefits_/?ref=fbshr



Jesus Christ that is harsh 
Where are these jobs supposed to be coming from


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 5, 2014)

MooChild said:


> Jesus Christ that is harsh
> Where are these jobs supposed to be coming from


i dont think they even care. This is about being tough on 'scroungers'. It hasnothing to do with helping .


----------



## MooChild (Sep 5, 2014)

Yep I agree, one of the MP's comments - "at least they aren't lounging around watching TV"


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 5, 2014)

MooChild said:


> Yep I agree, one of the MP's comments - "at least they aren't lounging around watching TV"


Unlike the TV's paid for by parliamentary expenses, along with everything else the likes of Philip Davies enjoys.


----------



## _angel_ (Sep 5, 2014)

> Not all claimants at those centres will take part – and lone parents and carers might not be required to attend for the full 35 hours a week.


Is this ignorance on the journalists part or ignorance on the DWPs part? As a carer claiming Income Support is not obliged or expected to look for work, just go for interviews where they are patronised into being shown how much better it would be if they didn't take care of a sick person for nearly nothing.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 5, 2014)

MooChild said:


> Jesus Christ that is harsh
> Where are these jobs supposed to be coming from


 
Also, can you imagine the deluge of irrelevant applications employers will be flooded with when trying to hire someone - you'd need some kind of agreement between companies and jobseekers over a secret "just throw this away without reading code"or everything would grind to a halt.


----------



## tufty79 (Sep 5, 2014)

MooChild said:


> Yep I agree, one of the MP's comments - "at least they aren't lounging around watching TV"


I found the last paragraph extra 



> Meanwhile, those with deep-rooted problems must attend therapy sessions to deal with poor literacy, or drink and drug addiction.



Aside from making my best cross face at the compulsory treatment issue, i had no idea that therapy sessions sorted literary problems.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 5, 2014)

8ball said:


> Also, can you imagine the deluge of irrelevant applications employers will be flooded with when trying to hire someone - you'd need some kind of agreement between companies and jobseekers over a secret "just throw this away without reading code"or everything would grind to a halt.


i'm more concerned with the wellbeing of the jobseekers than whether Mr Asda gets more applications than he can contend with.


----------



## MooChild (Sep 5, 2014)

The viewpoint is so entrenched. When I was on the dole, I remember my advisor telling me "I can tell you aren't a scrounger, you will find a job soon" and other stuff like that.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 5, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> i'm more concerned with the wellbeing of the jobseekers than whether Mr Asda gets more applications than he can contend with.


 
It's not going to help anyone get jobs just making reams and reams of paper to be shredded, and will encourage things like dodgy in-house appointments and nepotism by employers because they've had to stop paper applications and only accept applications by email which they then auto-delete. 

Eight hours a day of job applications multiplied by the number of unemployed people, facilitated by the odd out-of-work IT guy who creates a program for automatic creation of applications based on a feed from employee websites?  It's nothing more than an idea for a spam factory.


----------



## _angel_ (Sep 5, 2014)

I think reading between the lines, the job centre staff may sign them on everyday then send them out to "job seek" because there is literally not enough room in the building for them all to be in there at one time.
It could be a genius stroke for unemployed people to join together, though. I thought this was just the sort of thing tories were trying to do away with (unity, people getting together etc).


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 5, 2014)

we don't even know what facilities will be offered: transport costs, catering, toilets even?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 6, 2014)

Every day, a new low.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...titude-tests-employment-minister-reveals.html


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2014)

What kind of purpose does that ham-fisted psychological profiling really serve? Because it seems far too crude to have anything to do with actually helping people into work!


----------



## 8115 (Sep 6, 2014)

See, I do believe that support can be effective in helping people get back to work.

I don't believe that what the jobcentre will be offering will be good enough quality or effective enough to do anything except make a few people think, sod this, I'd rather be sitting on a till in Tescos than listening to this shit.  And that's the only way that this stuff will be effective and (I think) the only way that it's meant to be effective.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 6, 2014)

Who will be conduicting these tests?


----------



## NoXion (Sep 6, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Who will be conduicting these tests?



Probably some spivvy private company, if past performance is anything to go by.

Considering that the DWP has previous for mandating that people take useless tests, this latest news shows that they haven't learned their lesson (or that they've learned precisely the wrong ones!).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 7, 2014)

MooChild said:


> Jesus Christ that is harsh
> Where are these jobs supposed to be coming from


There aren't any, unless they're being plucked out of Iain Dunked-in Shit's arse (like most DWP policies).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 7, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> i'm more concerned with the wellbeing of the jobseekers than whether Mr Asda gets more applications than he can contend with.


Although if the employers get pissed off greatly enough by having to divert resources to sorting constant floods of speculative applications, they might give Dunked-in Shit a toe punt to the nads for costing them profit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 7, 2014)

NoXion said:


> What kind of purpose does that ham-fisted psychological profiling really serve? Because it seems far too crude to have anything to do with actually helping people into work!


The purpose it serves is to give the DWP an ongoing dataset that they can manipulate to show...well, anything the bovine cunts want them to show, sadly.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 9, 2014)

WTF is going on?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/212000-people-beaten-up-being-4186370



> Devastating research reveals that four years of Tory-led war on the poor – and the recent TV series Benefits Street – have taken a terrible toll on the most vulnerable in society.
> 
> A YouGov survey shows:
> 
> ...


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 9, 2014)

Jesus fucking H fucking Christ!


----------



## Libertad (Sep 9, 2014)

Nasty stuff, the tories must love it.


----------



## treelover (Sep 9, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> http://m.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk...e_to_five_or_face_losing_benefits_/?ref=fbshr



That Tory MP Philip Davies is an odious creep, he also thinks disabled people should be paid less.


----------



## treelover (Sep 9, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Every day, a new low.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11078359/Welfare-claimants-to-get-attitude-tests-employment-minister-reveals.html



Like a lot of NL/Tory ideas/policy on welfare, this is bordering on Stalinism, the old eastern bloc apparatchiks would recognise this.


----------



## treelover (Sep 9, 2014)

J Ed said:


> WTF is going on?
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/212000-people-beaten-up-being-4186370



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28124674
The BBC haven't yet covered this, but strangely they did cover another You Gov survey on sickies, I've complained and they acknowledged it should be covered,

not sure about the 200'00 people beaten up figure though, how did they get that?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 9, 2014)

benefits for the rich, capitalism for the poor. 

same as it ever was


----------



## treelover (Sep 17, 2014)

> Would also add to the comment at 11.33am that in speaking with Job Centre Staff I was shocked to learn that in management meetings and daily operations the management have instigated, not sure if this is universal, the practice of referring to claimants by their number rather than their name. This is deemed good practice as it helps to prevent decision making on an emotional basis.



posted on CIF, any verification, very alarming if true.


----------



## ddraig (Sep 17, 2014)

don't believe you


----------



## treelover (Sep 17, 2014)

What! I am just posting what I read, questioning it and looking for verification, why stalk and make negative comments?

I sincerely hope it isn't correct


----------



## ddraig (Sep 17, 2014)

treelover said:


> What! I am just posting what I read, questioning it and looking for verification, why stalk and make negative comments?
> 
> I sincerely hope it isn't correct


why should anyone believe you with no link, you could have edited it or even made it up entirely

i'm not stalking you, get over yourself.
posts without links are often challenged as people like to see the source/evidence for themselves
don't you?


----------



## treelover (Sep 17, 2014)

It was a CIF comment, if you don't think I should have posted it, fair enough, but new information has to come from somewhere, I imagine other CIF'ers will be attempting to verify the issue.


----------



## ddraig (Sep 17, 2014)

treelover said:


> It was a CIF comment, if you don't think I should have posted it, fair enough, but new information has to come from somewhere, I imagine other CIF'ers will be attempting to verify the issue.


so it wasn't on a web page then?
post what you like of course.
it would be good and helpful if you could make the effort to back up with links however.
otherwise why should people believe you?


----------



## NoXion (Sep 17, 2014)

Why would treelover be asking for verification of a comment that they supposedly just made up?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 19, 2014)

Thraigo, why do you _always_ feel the need to get on treelover's case in that nasty, bullying way of yours?



ddraig said:


> don't believe you



Why would he make it up?



treelover said:


> posted on CIF, any verification, very alarming if true.





ddraig said:


> so it wasn't on a web page then?
> post what you like of course.
> it would be good and helpful if you could make the effort to back up with links however.
> otherwise why should people believe you?



Honestly, _why_ snipe like this on a thread on which we're all meant to be on the same side _against_ welfare cuts etc? You should've said something along the lines of "Have you got a link for that please?" Rather than the pointlessly confrontational "Don't believe you" - Have you never fancied joining the Taxpayers Alliance or something? Coz you do more harm than good on our side.


----------



## ddraig (Sep 19, 2014)

tried asking many times for links as many others have

'our side'  go away franny


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 19, 2014)

Doesn't seem unreasonable (ie unbelievable - it is _unreasonable) _that staff would refer to people like that. Claimants are already called customers ffs. We're already through the looking glass people!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 10, 2014)

http://www.localgov.co.uk/Council-cancels-pre-paid-benefit-card-trial/37384



> *North Tyneside Council has cancelled a project to trial pre-paid benefit cards following ‘inaccurate’ accusations it was to target people with drug and alcohol problems.*
> The council said ‘negative and inaccurate’ coverage in the media had undermined the credibility of the scheme and meant only two people volunteered to take part.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 11, 2014)

Because targeting people with drug & alcohol problems was the only problem anyone ever had with the idea.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 11, 2014)

Disabled woman wets herself in busy jobcentre after not being allowed to use the toilet.

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...ot_allowed_to_use_Jobcentre_toilet/?ref=fbshr

Jobcentre spokestwunt trying to make excuses by saying that the woman was abusive towards staff, but who wouldn't be abusive to someone who treated them like that? A sharp word is the very least of what these uncaring automotons deserve.

And they're gonna start making people spend all day, every day in the jobcentre. How people are supposed to do that when there's no toilets, no drinking water etc is anyone's guess.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 11, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Disabled woman wets herself in busy jobcentre after not being allowed to use the toilet.
> 
> http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...ot_allowed_to_use_Jobcentre_toilet/?ref=fbshr
> 
> ...


They justify treating someone with zero dignity and then complain that they were insulted?

That's twisted!

Not only that, but the dig toward the customer - according to the article - coems from nowhere. There is no evidence presented of her being abusive at all, but these fascist cunts (there's some abuse for you, pigfuckers) have to manufacture something.

Fuck's sake, again, where are the fucking PCS?


----------



## treelover (Oct 11, 2014)

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/re-think-pre-paid-benefit-cards


petition on 38 degrees, over 45'00 signed it already, I don't think it is as popular as the Tories think.


----------



## treelover (Oct 11, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> http://www.localgov.co.uk/Council-cancels-pre-paid-benefit-card-trial/37384




Supporter of devolution/localism should remember that councils, including labour ones, can be just as ruthless, sometimes even more than central govt.


----------



## treelover (Oct 11, 2014)

> Deputy mayor, Cllr Bruce Pickard said the council had already successfully used pre-paid cards for direct payment clients and hoped the pre-paid benefits card would have helped those who struggled financially.
> Mr Pickard said: ‘For people on low budgets who have to manage their spending very carefully, and rely on cash transactions because many don't have a full bank account, it can be very difficult for them to pay direct debits and access better prices by using online shopping.
> ‘We wanted to give those people a financial life-line to better managing their finances so they could be more independent in the future and provide them with great choices.’
> 
> The council said it had no plans to restrict how the card could be used and would not have shared information with the DWP on individual spending. The council needed 250 volunteers to make the project viable.



I don't believe you.



> The council said it had no plans to restrict how the card could be used and would not have shared information with the DWP on individual spending.



Bet they would have shared the anonomysed(sic) information on 'spending habits' though. Further, direct payments has nothing to do with the DWP, so why mention them.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 11, 2014)

How do they even think a card could work? In terms of actual basic functionality? Is it like those prepaid cards you can get for Google Play or Itunes? Or does the money go to a DWP account set aside for individuals that can only be accessed using a card? I can't even fathom how the card itself would work, never mind that even using a card won't be dfeasible for _so many _things.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 11, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> How do they even think a card could work? In terms of actual basic functionality? Is it like those prepaid cards you can get for Google Play or Itunes? Or does the money go to a DWP account set aside for individuals that can only be accessed using a card? I can't even fathom how the card itself would work, never mind that even using a card won't be dfeasible for _so many _things.


It will just be a pre paid master card or visa I reckon, so you could use it anywhere that accepts cards, which rules out the cheapest place to buy fruit and veg in brum and lots of local shops, plus minimum £5 spend cos of charges to the shop by the card company.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 11, 2014)

BigTom said:


> It will just be a pre paid master card or visa I reckon, so you could use it anywhere that accepts cards, which rules out the cheapest place to buy fruit and veg in brum and lots of local shops, plus minimum £5 spend cos of charges to the shop by the card company.


Bank charges are not permissible in the US on their card/foodstamp system.

But those cards - how does the money get onto them? Does that mean that every tweo weeks, when you sign on (or monthly, under UC), you then have to wait for a new card in the post? How much will that cost? What happens if your postie has sticky fingers?


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 11, 2014)

BigTom said:


> plus minimum £5 spend cos of charges to the shop by the card company.


They just charge a flat 50p here, regardless of how much you spend.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 12, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Bank charges are not permissible in the US on their card/foodstamp system.
> 
> But those cards - how does the money get onto them? Does that mean that every tweo weeks, when you sign on (or monthly, under UC), you then have to wait for a new card in the post? How much will that cost? What happens if your postie has sticky fingers?


I dunno tbf. They can probably be topped up remotely but I bet they'd do it like gas/leccy cards with a machine in the job centre so when you go to sign on, you top up your card with the month's uc... if your advisor decides you've jumped through enough hoops to be worthy of course


----------



## BigTom (Oct 12, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> They just charge a flat 50p here, regardless of how much you spend.


That'd be even more fucked


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 12, 2014)

BigTom said:


> I dunno tbf. They can probably be topped up remotely but I bet they'd do it like gas/leccy cards with a machine in the job centre so when you go to sign on, you top up your card with the month's uc... if your advisor decides you've jumped through enough hoops to be worthy of course


And that would be another massive expense. If it broke down they'd be open riots in the office!


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 15, 2014)

According to Lord Freud, we disabled folk aren't worth the minimum wage, either:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/15/lord-freud-minimum-wage_n_5988374.html


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 15, 2014)

Apply for jobs online even if you can't


----------



## Celyn (Oct 16, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> According to Lord Freud, we disabled folk aren't worth the minimum wage, either:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/15/lord-freud-minimum-wage_n_5988374.html



He is a nasty piece of work.  Never elected to anything, but a favourite of Tony Blair, and now of David Cameron.

Very nasty type:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Freud,_Baron_Freud#Education


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 16, 2014)

Artist Taxi Driver interviews Paula Peters from DPAC. 





You can hear the effect of scum like IDS on her.


----------



## 8115 (Oct 27, 2014)

C4  Dispatches on Universal Credit now. I don't know how good it will be.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 27, 2014)

A stat from C4's research claims 90% of claimants are in arrears with 1/3 facing eviction.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 27, 2014)

"I'm quite surprised that staff are reporting difficulties with their workload; everyone i've spoken to says it and I are both, quite splendid"

Mark Harper, minister for the culling.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 28, 2014)

DWP fake tweets? surely not?

http://usvsth3m.com/post/101163174433/would-the-dwp-write-fake-tweets-to-pretend-that

And how exactly has UC helped this person get a 'permenant' job?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 30, 2014)

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2014/...-tories-think-incapacity-claimants-arent-ill/

Tories floating ideas that ESA should be reduced to about 30p dearer than current JSA.


----------



## superfly101 (Oct 30, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2014/...-tories-think-incapacity-claimants-arent-ill/
> 
> Tories floating ideas that ESA should be reduced to about 30p dearer than current JSA.


Well you need some outrageous headline for fuckwitted muppets to cling on too whilst....

you secretly slip Maximus further into the fold 

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2014/10/29/maximus-are-the-new-atos-destroy-maximus/


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 31, 2014)

"fuckwitted muppets"?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 3, 2014)

> Millions of households will get “annual tax statements” from George Osborne from Monday, showing that the biggest chunk of their contribution goes towards welfare. But the Treasury has quietly dropped plans to provide a further breakdown of benefit spending.



From today's Guardian, Osborne's plan to send annual tax statements giving what aortas to be a biased breakdown of welfare spending.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/02/tax-statements-george-osborne-money#comment-43116258​


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 3, 2014)

Well, they don't want to alienate the OAPs, hence the refusal to break down "welfare" spending further, given how pensions and various other benefits OAPs can access constitute the majority of the welfare budget.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 3, 2014)

Man forced to work, for nothing (natch), for company that fired him.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...ork-placement-labour?CMP=twt_gu&commentpage=1

A story that will surprise noone.


----------



## treelover (Nov 3, 2014)

Good on that man for standing up to them, I wish more would help out boycott workfare, etc.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/12/jobseeker-applied-posts-protest-dwp-policy-sanctioned

Daily sanctioning, ground down, treated like a criminal, still applied for 60 jobs in a fortnight - which was labelled positively by the same advisoer in the same meeting who subsequently told him his search wasn't broad enough.

Vote out these cunts.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 13, 2014)

you can vote on job centre advisers!?!


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/12/jobseeker-applied-posts-protest-dwp-policy-sanctioned
> 
> Daily sanctioning, ground down, treated like a criminal, still applied for 60 jobs in a fortnight - which was labelled positively by the same advisoer in the same meeting who subsequently told him his search wasn't broad enough.
> 
> Vote out these cunts.


You really need to get your head around this - the regime is not going to be significantly altered under labour. And that's because all the parties share a commitment to the same welfare management plans - and this is enshrined in the eu as well. _Active benefits _ is something they all agree on and will pursue. They're not doing it because they're evil (though they are) but because they want to streamline the various economies (national and european) to bring down wages and cut the cost of the social wage (that's health, education etc) and put it on privatised individuals on a for-profit basis in order to compete with the US and SEA. These imperatives come with capital - they cannot be voted away. Workers and users can together refuse to implement or participate in the welfare-regime (or to do so in the way outlined above) and so damage the wider plan - but those plans cannot be voted away.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

ddraig said:


> you can vote on job centre advisers!?!


You can vote out their master.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You really need to get your head around this - the regime is not going to be significantly altered under labour. And that's because all the parties share a commitment to the same welfare management plans - and this is enshrined in the eu as well. _Active benefits _ is something they all agree on and will pursue. They're not doing it because they're evil (though they are) but because they want to streamline the various economies (national and european) to bring down wages and cut the cost of the social wage (that's health, education etc) and put it on privatised individuals on a for-profit basis in order to compete with the US and SEA. These imperatives come with capital - they cannot be voted away. Workers and users can together refuse to implement or participate in the welfare-regime (or to do so in the way outlined above) and so damage the wider plan - but those plans cannot be voted away.


blah blah blah


----------



## ddraig (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> You can vote out their master.


and how different do you think the new master would be?


----------



## ddraig (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> blah blah blah


you want to try reading and absorbing some of these posts and actually learn stuff


----------



## Greebo (Nov 13, 2014)

ddraig said:


> and how different do you think the new master would be?


Taking a guess based on going by past performance "here comes the new boss, same as the old boss".


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Taking a guess based on going by past performance "here comes the new boss, same as the old boss".


Then IDS stays in post.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 13, 2014)

labour won't save anyone but themselves, get it through your stubborn skull


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

ddraig said:


> and how different do you think the new master would be?


They won't be a tory and they will make some, if small, changes. 

Not enough, to be sure. But enough to get rid of the tories and tell them they aren't welcome, including and especially IDS, Webb, Freud, McVey etc.


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

ddraig said:


> labour won't save anyone but themselves, get it through your stubborn skull


So you can see the future?


----------



## ddraig (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> They won't be a tory and they will make some, if small, changes.
> 
> Not enough, to be sure. But enough to get rid of the tories and tell them they aren't welcome, including and especially IDS, Webb, Freud, McVey etc.


what kind of small changes? so small they won't make a difference to claimants? what's the point then?


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

ddraig said:


> you want to try reading and absorbing some of these posts and actually learn stuff


Like what?


----------



## ddraig (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> So you can see the future?


do you think labour will make a marked difference to your life and other people suffering under this government/current regime?


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

ddraig said:


> what kind of small changes? so small they won't make a difference to claimants? what's the point then?


Are you asking me or telling me?


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## ddraig (Nov 13, 2014)

the question marks indicate questions


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

ddraig said:


> the question marks indicate questions



Then don't ask stupid leading quetions.

You know very well that labour has at least pledged to get rid fo the Bedroom Tax, for one thing. That's enough.


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## ddraig (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Then don't ask stupid leading quetions.
> 
> You know very well that labour has at least pledged to get rid fo the Bedroom Tax, for one thing. That's enough.


really? that is enough to keep you quiet is it?
so no more rants about the government after may then?
and if the tories scrapped it tomorrow would they be back in your good books?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

ddraig said:


> really? that is enough to keep you quiet is it?
> so no more rants about the government after may then?
> and if the tories scrapped it tomorrow would they be back in your good books?


Who said anything about keeping quiet?

If the ONLY change is that the BT is repealed that is still better than 5 more years of Tory rule during which things will get worse. So right now is as good as it gets and you are arguing in favour of that.

The tories won't scrap it tomorrow the hypothetical question is moot. 

I do not believe Labour will be this bad on welfare as the tories. Simple as that.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Who said anything about keeping quiet?
> 
> If the ONLY change is that the BT is repealed that is still better than 5 more years of Tory rule during which things will get worse. So right now is as good as it gets and you are arguing in favour of that.
> 
> ...


so a belief is all it needs? hoping too much
i'll ask you again, in the hypothetical position of the tories scrapping the BT would they then be ok with you?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

ddraig said:


> so a belief is all it needs? hoping too much
> i'll ask you again, in the hypothetical position of the tories scrapping the BT would they then be ok with you?


And I'll ask you again: are you psychic?

of course not. 

So we have to predict what we think will happen. The only certainty is that either labour or the tories win (perhaps as part of a coalition). Pick one. There's no other alternative regarldess of whether or not you vote or how.

Your hypothetical question is moot and I do not support the tories. I've already answered this question when I said that Labour will not be as bad as the tories. You can press your facile question all you like, that's your answer, deal with it.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> And I'll ask you again: are you psychic?
> 
> of course not.
> 
> ...


you do know what hypothetical means don't you? especially after using the word

so predicting is ok with you, on the off chance it will be better. 
i know you are notoriously difficult to get through to but try it like this then
party A are in power and have a nasty policy
party B says they will get rid of nasty policy when they get power, so you'll vote for them to get rid of nasty policy, job done
party A now say, oh we'll get rid of nasty policy tomorrow, that should do it. will you vote for us now?


A and B are interchangeable and could be any political persuasion


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I do not support the tories


yeh after your lengthy defence of racism earlier in the year i thought you'd be somewhere to their right.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Labour will not be as bad as the tories.


you don't have to be psychick to know that that's a load of bullshit. only someone who can't recall the years 1997-2010 would come out with cockrot like that.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

ddraig said:


> you do know what hypothetical means don't you? especially after using the word
> 
> so predicting is ok with you, on the off chance it will be better.
> i know you are notoriously difficult to get through to but try it like this then
> ...


Thank you, I know what the word means.

prediction is all we can do as we are incapable of clairvoyance. what better method can you suggest, anything?

i am not being difficult with you so you can stop spitting your dummy out, i have answered your question and explained why your hypotehtical scenario is pointless. I also said that I won't be pressed on it. What you are now doing is trolling.


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## ddraig (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Thank you, I know what the word means.
> 
> prediction is all we can do as we are incapable of clairvoyance. what better method can you suggest, anything?
> 
> i am not being difficult with you so you can stop spitting your dummy out, i have answered your question and explained why your hypotehtical scenario is pointless. I also said that I won't be pressed on it. What you are now doing is trolling.


no, no you haven't
sad that you can't see it
you are indeed a waste of time, try reading more and posting less, better for you, better for these threads


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> prediction is all we can do as we are incapable of clairvoyance.


how many of you are there?


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2014)

ddraig said:


> no, no you haven't
> sad that you can't see it
> you are indeed a waste of time, try reading more and posting less, better for you, better for these threads


And i'll ask you again. Why will it be better. As usual none of you can explain your position.

I've explained mine, and I'll do it again: the tories won't repeal the bedroom tax. your question is pointless. I also went on to say, as you clearly can't read, that labour will not be as bad as the tories. you have yet to establish how they will and, like the rest of the muppets on here, assume that also means that I think labour are faultless.

There is nothing to see: labour or the tories will win next year. So you either help one or help the other. That's the system. Do i like it? No, as i have said - and it's sad that I have to repeat myself to morons incapable of making the effort of reading the people they constantly patronise and slag off. 

Even minor improvements are better than what we have now when there is very good reason to think that another tory government will make things worse - especially if they aren't in coalition. in the next 5 years we could see the NHS gone completely, the welfare state gone completely. Either you support that or you don't. Playing silly games around hypothetical questions based on pie in the sky assumptions is time i won't waste.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> blah blah blah



Butchersapron is absolutely correct in his analysis, so all that your "blah blah blah" dismissal does is mark you as politically ignorant.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Playing silly games around hypothetical questions based on pie in the sky assumptions is time i won't waste.


if only that were true


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## BigTom (Nov 13, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> blah blah blah



Labour introduced Lord Freud, workfare, ESA/the WCA/ATOS, increased benefit sanctions, voted for the retroactive sanctions bill, support workfare, bedroom tax (though now backtracked), benefits cap, they want to introduce a total cap on the benefits bill, they introduced the Local Housing Allowance which does the same thing as the bedroom tax in the private sector. Liam Byrne is as much of a cunt as IDS but even if he wasn't he'd still be doing the same things - or rather, if he wasn't a cunt he wouldn't have become shadow and come 2015 actual DWP minister.
What Butcher's said is spot on, please read it again. Let's spend our time talking, proposing and doing things that might actually shift the terrain, not fucking voting for another bunch of neo-liberal cockwombles to come in and continue to fuck us all over.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Labour introduced Lord Freud, workfare, ESA/the WCA/ATOS, increased benefit sanctions, voted for the retroactive sanctions bill, support workfare, bedroom tax (though now backtracked), benefits cap, they want to introduce a total cap on the benefits bill, they introduced the Local Housing Allowance which does the same thing as the bedroom tax in the private sector. Liam Byrne is as much of a cunt as IDS but even if he wasn't he'd still be doing the same things - or rather, if he wasn't a cunt he wouldn't have become shadow and come 2015 actual DWP minister.
> What Butcher's said is spot on, please read it again. Let's spend our time talking, proposing and doing things that might actually shift the terrain, not fucking voting for another bunch of neo-liberal cockwombles to come in and continue to fuck us all over.


you'll be wished a painful death now by 'bo' wells


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Labour introduced Lord Freud, workfare, ESA/the WCA/ATOS, increased benefit sanctions, voted for the retroactive sanctions bill, support workfare, bedroom tax (though now backtracked), benefits cap, they want to introduce a total cap on the benefits bill, they introduced the Local Housing Allowance which does the same thing as the bedroom tax in the private sector. Liam Byrne is as much of a cunt as IDS but even if he wasn't he'd still be doing the same things - or rather, if he wasn't a cunt he wouldn't have become shadow and come 2015 actual DWP minister.
> What Butcher's said is spot on, please read it again. Let's spend our time talking, proposing and doing things that might actually shift the terrain, not fucking voting for another bunch of neo-liberal cockwombles to come in and continue to fuck us all over.


Sorry, you actually believe, despite everything i've posted on this forum, that I didn't know Labour did these things? 

Is that really how you want discussion to proceed, constantly assuming the worst about whom you are talking to? How utterly bloody stupid is that?

And so what? We can't change the past so what good does it do raking this shit up over and over. All you are doing is hobbling yourself repeatedly with the end result being that the tories remain in power - possibly as a majority government. God alone knows how bad things will be then.

I am not interesed in anything butchers cunt says; he is a nasty bullying piece of shit who has been supported by people like you and the admins in his behaviour for too long. I have zero interest in his tedious shit having been victim blamed (ironic on this site whic claims to argue for things like feminist justice) when reporting his behaviour. 

I have also repeatedly invited people to provide exactly the solutions you now call for. Insead I just get more condescension and abuse. The hypocrisy on this site is breathtaking. Unfortunately however you miss the point: we either vote for labour or we get a tory governemtn. That's the only choce that exists right now. I am all for a better system, but that's not going to happen in 6 months, so for now the priority has to be staunching the flow of blood from the open wound caused by the current government. They have to go.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 14, 2014)

As ever, Wells is talking shit. He talks so much of it, the poor little victim (note how he's set himself up as a martyr to bullying?) that he should change his username to Arsehole Wells.


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## 8115 (Nov 14, 2014)

The internet hardmen are out in force this week


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## StoneRoad (Nov 14, 2014)

Personally, I think one of the reasons why the DWP (& other gov't) policies don't change very much any more is that the policies are largely devised and implemented by the same "civil servants" and at the upper levels these people don't change - they are interested in maintaining their level above the rest of us !  (of course, "Yes, Minister" was poking fun at this, but from personal knowledge it was quite close to the truth)


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## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> As ever, Wells is talking shit. He talks so much of it, the poor little victim (note how he's set himself up as a martyr to bullying?) that he should change his username to Arsehole Wells.




'bo' wells


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 14, 2014)

StoneRoad said:


> Personally, I think one of the reasons why the DWP (& other gov't) policies don't change very much any more is that the policies are largely devised and implemented by the same "civil servants" and at the upper levels these people don't change - they are interested in maintaining their level above the rest of us !  (of course, "Yes, Minister" was poking fun at this, but from personal knowledge it was quite close to the truth)



Senior CSs are much as you characterise, and what they want is continuity. They actually dislike "radical" policies such as Iain Dunked-in Shit has actioned, because not only do they make waves in the department, butoutside the department too.


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

8115 said:


> The internet hardmen are out in force this week


There's nothing hard about being a bully, especially in an environment that condones it.


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> As ever, Wells is talking shit. He talks so much of it, the poor little victim (note how he's set himself up as a martyr to bullying?) that he should change his username to Arsehole Wells.


Then explain what is wrong with what i say. Which you can't, and have never done. You are just a coward.


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## BigTom (Nov 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Sorry, you actually believe, despite everything i've posted on this forum, that I didn't know Labour did these things?
> 
> Is that really how you want discussion to proceed, constantly assuming the worst about whom you are talking to? How utterly bloody stupid is that?
> 
> ...



I just don't understand how, knowing these things, you can actively call for a Labour government. The past behaviour of people/organisations is kind of key to judging what their future behaviour is, surely?

And iirc when people have suggested things to you in the past - like community organising, like claimant's unions, like IWW, Unite Community, like anything that builds against the individualistic neo-liberal thatcherite ways of considering, you've just gone, yeah but but we must vote labour,which supports a neo-liberal organisation and builds towards the thing we need to build against. It's like saying let's paddle more slowly towards that waterfall instead of paddling away from it, or sideways.


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

BigTom said:


> I just don't understand how, knowing these things, you can actively call for a Labour government. The past behaviour of people/organisations is kind of key to judging what their future behaviour is, surely?
> 
> And iirc when people have suggested things to you in the past - like community organising, like claimant's unions, like IWW, Unite Community, like anything that builds against the individualistic neo-liberal thatcherite ways of considering, you've just gone, yeah but but we must vote labour,which supports a neo-liberal organisation and builds towards the thing we need to build against. It's like saying let's paddle more slowly towards that waterfall instead of paddling away from it, or sideways.


If you don't understand that's because you haven't actually read what I've said. This sort of inteelectual laziness is rife on here. 

Again: there are only two outcomes next year. Labour or Tory - irrespective of what you do or how you vote, if at all. So the choice is yours: tory or labour. It's not much of a choice I grant you, but the problem you and the bully brigade are having is that you think by calling for a labour vote i'm endorsing the labour party entirely along with all their politicians and policies. You seem to think that I'm endorsing all the bad decisions they've made. If that's how you think, if you are as prejudiced as the rest of the people who haunt my every post with their silly abuse, think then I can't help you because you will not and are not listening.

Even a change in government would be better than 5 more years of the tories. At the very least that, if nothing else, it will be a relief and that will spur people on, even if only marginally, to work for even greater change. We aren't going to get a better fairer system in 6 months and, as i've said before, i'm not talking long term. I'm talking here and now: general election 2015.

If you don't agree, then please follow your own advice and offer an alterantive. I have asked that of people repeatedly on here and, predictably, I get a load of shit flung my way (by people who bitch and whine when they get a taste of their own medicine). I am quite open to that discussion, unfortunately noone else here has so far proven to be likewise. They expect everyone to conform to their intransigence and their opinions and when they don't they misrepresent what they say and bullshit about them.


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## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2014)

BigTom said:


> I just don't understand how, knowing these things, you can actively call for a Labour government. The past behaviour of people/organisations is kind of key to judging what their future behaviour is, surely?
> 
> And iirc when people have suggested things to you in the past - like community organising, like claimant's unions, like IWW, Unite Community, like anything that builds against the individualistic neo-liberal thatcherite ways of considering, you've just gone, yeah but but we must vote labour,which supports a neo-liberal organisation and builds towards the thing we need to build against. It's like saying let's paddle more slowly towards that waterfall instead of paddling away from it, or sideways.


Don't wasted your time Tom. he won't do a damn thing to help himself or - more importantly for this thread - others. The board is littered with him asking for advice and help and him turning the helpful well-intentioned responses he gets into bullying attacks on himself. Not worth it. His life will pass him by.


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Don't wasted your time Tom. he won't do a damn thing to help himself or - more importantly for this thread - others. The board is littered with him asking for advice and help and him turning the helpful well-intentioned responses he gets into bullying attacks on himself. Not worth it. His life will pass him by.



It is not for you to tell other people how to 'waste' their time.

This board is not littered with anything of the kind. You are just a nasty cowardly bully. That's all you are and when i gave you a taste of your own nastiness you pissed your pants. All you have ever done is follow me around bullying me. I've asked you repeatedly to stop and you have ignored me. What gives you the right to treat other people like this? Who the hell do you think you are? You are in no position to sit in judgement of anyone, never mind me.

This is not a thread asking for help nor is it a threat requesting help. To sit there and insinuate that I never help others is disgusting. You have no idea what I do for anyone or anything, you have no idea what I do, period. All you have ever done is sit and dig up posts from 2008/9, from 4 years before I started posting on here - all just to smear me, right from the off. You weren't even interestedin an honest dialogue. You are a gutless, sad little coward and you have absolutely no justification for the way you treat me. I don't give a shit if you're Mother Theresa, your behaviour is utterly beyond the pale.


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## BigTom (Nov 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> If you don't agree, then please follow your own advice and offer an alterantive. I have asked that of people repeatedly on here and, predictably, I get a load of shit flung my way (by people who bitch and whine when they get a taste of their own medicine). I am quite open to that discussion, unfortunately noone else here has so far proven to be likewise. They expect everyone to conform to their intransigence and their opinions and when they don't they misrepresent what they say and bullshit about them.



I just offered you a string of alternatives in my last post and you've ignored them. So with that, I'm going to agree with Butcher's, I'm out of this conversation.


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

BigTom said:


> No I don't think you are endorsing the whole of the labour party but you will get it all whether you like it or not, that is what you are supporting and calling for.
> Even a change in government would be better than 5 more years of the tories. At the very least that, if nothing else, it will be a relief and that will spur people on, even if only marginally, to work for even greater change. We aren't going to get a better fairer system in 6 months and, as i've said before, i'm not talking long term. I'm talking here and now: general election 2015.
> 
> and then you'll be talking about 2020 after that, then 2025 and so on.
> ...



So you're another coward then? Rather than wait to hear what the person you're talking say you chucl your toys out the pram?


I'm well aware that we will get ALL of the labour party if we vote for them, why would you think otherwise? But it is either that or the tory party. So the question is which is the lesser of two evils given that there are no other choices.

Speculating about what I might say in 5 years time is just trolling. You are in no position to make that assumption as i have said that in the meantime, as well as dealing with 2015, we need to work toward a better outcome so we aren't in this situation in 2020. I've made that point before. We don't have the opportunity to do that in 2015. I wish that were different; it is not.


> And iirc when people have suggested things to you in the past - like community organising, like claimant's unions, like IWW, Unite Community, like anything that builds against the individualistic neo-liberal thatcherite ways of considering, you've just gone, yeah but but we must vote labour,which supports a neo-liberal organisation and builds towards the thing we need to build against. It's like saying let's paddle more slowly towards that waterfall instead of paddling away from it, or sideways.


And that is exactly what I mean by building for a better outcome.

It's also why i joined the Socialist Party (bristol south division apparently) last year.

Again you are assuming that calling for a labour vote next year = endorsing their neo liberal values.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Then explain what is wrong with what i say. Which you can't, and have never done. You are just a coward.



If I'm a "coward", then you're (as I'm sure many posters are already aware) a liar. I've explained to you several times, on this thread and others, why your " vote Labour with no illusions" [l]schtick[/I] (that's my paraphrase of your argument, by the way, something I thought I'd make clear *before* you started whining about how you'd never said that) is bankrupt.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> It's also why i joined the Socialist Party (bristol south division apparently) last year.
> 
> Again you are assuming that calling for a labour vote next year = endorsing their neo liberal values.



Astonishing - that's the SP in bristol who are part of the backbone of Badaca (Bristol and District Anti-Cuts Alliance) who i invited you to get organised with and introduce you to people from it but you said they were all leftie cunts who wanted to attack labour and so damaging the main thing - which is getting labour elected. Doesn't sound like you've actually made any of your parties meeting yet if you're not sure which branch you're in and you're arguing stuff directly opposed to what your party believes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 14, 2014)

BigTom said:


> I just don't understand how, knowing these things, you can actively call for a Labour government. The past behaviour of people/organisations is kind of key to judging what their future behaviour is, surely?
> 
> And iirc when people have suggested things to you in the past - like community organising, like claimant's unions, like IWW, Unite Community, like anything that builds against the individualistic neo-liberal thatcherite ways of considering, you've just gone, yeah but but we must vote labour,which supports a neo-liberal organisation and builds towards the thing we need to build against. It's like saying let's paddle more slowly towards that waterfall instead of paddling away from it, or sideways.



It seems to me that the answer to how he can call for a Labour govt is constructed around two central pillars - a belief (unsupported by actions on Labour's part except a not-quite-promise re the bedroom tax) that Labour will be different to the Tories, and his own need to believe he's "doing something", even if the " doing something" is hawking bankrupt politics and politicians as a solution to which they're actually the problem.


----------



## andysays (Nov 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> So you're another coward then? Rather than wait to hear what the person you're talking say you chucl your toys out the pram?
> 
> I'm well aware that we will get ALL of the labour party if we vote for them, why would you think otherwise? But it is either that or the tory party. So the question is which is the lesser of two evils given that there are no other choices.
> 
> ...



You're asserting that Labour is the lesser of two evils; others are suggesting (and actually arguing, you know, with substantive points and shit) that there is nothing significant between them.

And can you clarify if "Vote Labour with Substantial Illusions" is the new SP slogan at national level, just in Bristol South, or is it something you've dreamt up for yourself?


----------



## BigTom (Nov 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> So you're another coward then? Rather than wait to hear what the person you're talking say you chucl your toys out the pram?



I actually edited my post before seeing your reply because I thought it was shitty to end a conversation without giving someone a chance to respond, I'm only back now because you've decided you do want to talk about the alternative suggestions you've ignored before. I don't know why you want to accuse me of cowardice when I've had to prod you into a conversation you claim to want to have.



> I'm well aware that we will get ALL of the labour party if we vote for them, why would you think otherwise? But it is either that or the tory party. So the question is which is the lesser of two evils given that there are no other choices.
> 
> Speculating about what I might say in 5 years time is just trolling. You are in no position to make that assumption as i have said that in the meantime, as well as dealing with 2015, we need to work toward a better outcome so we aren't in this situation in 2020. I've made that point before. We don't have the opportunity to do that in 2015. I wish that were different; it is not.
> 
> ...



Last line, nope, I've explicitly said I don't in the edited post you quoted. I've said that calling for a labour vote = getting their neo-liberal values.

Now about those alternatives, why not talk about what you/SP are doing locally to campaign against welfare cuts and poverty, what has worked, what hasn't, what the strategy is, how do the activities you are doing fit tactically with the overall strategy. We've had some really productive conversations on here in the past about workfare campaigning and sanctions stuff as well as more generally about the broader picture wrt neo-liberalism & capitalism.


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Now about those alternatives, why not talk about what you/SP are doing locally to campaign against welfare cuts and poverty, what has worked, what hasn't, what the strategy is, how do the activities you are doing fit tactically with the overall strategy. We've had some really productive conversations on here in the past about workfare campaigning and sanctions stuff as well as more generally about the broader picture wrt neo-liberalism & capitalism.



We can talk about all sorts of things, however the point at hand is the general election and barring unforeseen circumstances, the only choices in 2015 are Labour or Tory. That is the point I'm trying to make. If at the very least a change in government to labour (who else could it be?) means the load is lightened while we campaign, however and about whatever, then surely that is better than bemoaning the loss of the labour of old while IDS gets back into power and things get even worse at the DWP - and who would disagree about that?

I'm more than happy to campaign against the capitalist system that is clearly not working that has utterly failed us. I've raised issues with my (tory) MP and used social media where possible. It's not a huge amount but it's better than nothing. I agree entirely that claimants need wider representation, the unions are as much a failure as Labour seems to be (where are the PCS while advisers, some of hwom must be members, sanction people). But i have not the faintest idea how something like that could be set up. I don't live in the big city, certainly not London, so my options are limited. 

But the fundamental point remains: do you think a tory government from 2015 will be better than Labour? Some on here actually believe this. I do not. I think that to be a ridiculous statement: while Labour have done some shit things, which noone denies, they took 13 years. We've had 4 years of what might be described a dilute Tory vision (ie they are _nominally _in coalition) and just look at the damage they have wrought by comparison.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

andysays said:


> You're asserting that Labour is the lesser of two evils; others are suggesting (and actually arguing, you know, with substantive points and shit) that there is nothing significant between them.
> 
> And can you clarify if "Vote Labour with Substantial Illusions" is the new SP slogan at national level, just in Bristol South, or is it something you've dreamt up for yourself?



There are differences, small but significant. For example: Labour has pledged to repeal the Health and Social Care bill as well as the BT. That promise alone is more than we have from the tories. If the argument is that there's no point investing in that promise because they will break it then you might as well just stick your head up your arse and forget it because we won't get anywhere. We don't know if they will - they might, anything's possible - but that is still better than nothing. That is the point.

Why on earth would you think that quote you've just dreamed up is anything to do with the SP?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Astonishing - that's the SP in bristol who are part of the backbone of Badaca (Bristol and District Anti-Cuts Alliance) who i invited you to get organised with and introduce you to people from it but you said they were all leftie cunts who wanted to attack labour and so damaging the main thing - which is getting labour elected. Doesn't sound like you've actually made any of your parties meeting yet if you're not sure which branch you're in and you're arguing stuff directly opposed to what your party believes.


The only thing that's astonishing is how you continue to believe I have any interest in the shit that comes out of your keyboard, and why the moderators on this forum think it acceptable to allow you to bully other users. You continue to reply to me in the mistaken belief that you think you're entitled to any respect when you show absolutely none in return.

You have never invited me to do anything. Nothing pleasant anyway. From the very first interaction with me since i started posting last November tyou have been throughly unpleasant. In fact I even thought your first post was an attempt at being friendly which is why I responded in kind, only to find out it was you digging up shit from 4 years earlier just to dig at me and that's all you've done since. Now it seems you're utterly delusional.

And if you are a member of that party i'll be handing my membeship card back. I wont' even share the same platform as scum like you.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

BigTom said:


> I don't know why you want to accuse me of cowardice when I've had to prod you into a conversation you claim to want to have.



I was already having the conversation, i've no idea what you are talking about. I missed that part of your post which is why i went back and responded to it. The reason I missed it is because i have piss poor eyesight when it comes to reading off screens; my eyes don't focus properly. 

I also didn't accuse you of cowardice, i accused violentpanda who , along with his partner, decided, out of the blue in another discussion, to become nasty for no reason.


----------



## andysays (Nov 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> There are differences, small but significant. For example: Labour has pledged to repeal the Health and Social Care bill as well as the BT. That promise alone is more than we have from the tories. If the argument is that there's no point investing in that promise because they will break it then you might as well just stick your head up your arse and forget it because we won't get anywhere. We don't know if they will - they might, anything's possible - but that is still better than nothing. That is the point.
> 
> Why on earth would you think that quote you've just dreamed up is anything to do with the SP?



The quote is a pastiche of the SWP quote "Vote Labour with No Illusions" I would have thought that was obvious to everyone reading this thread. It also seems to me to be a pretty good summary of your position, so I was wondering if you'd got it off your alleged new friends the SP or dreamt it up yourself.

And as far as Labour promises go...


----------



## BigTom (Nov 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> We can talk about all sorts of things, however the point at hand is the general election



So you don't want to talk about alternatives then, ok, no probs, I've no interest in talking about electoral stuff, it doesn't fit into what I see as the strategy to improving things wrt social security & poverty, at least not while the "choice" is between two neo-liberal parties.


----------



## campanula (Nov 14, 2014)

Possibly because I am old and stupid, but I feel impaled on the horns of a dilemma since it seems, as far as parliamentary democracy goes, the only game in town still revolves around the 2 parties, Labour/Tory. While I can see that a: politicians have limited power since they are mere puppets for a wider invisible corporate ownership of power and b: there are few substantive differences between them, this leaves me feeling that a non-vote is my only option...and yet, this is reprehensible, indeed, almost impossible to willingly disenfranchise myself further by destroying a ballot paper or simply not bothering. I do feel horror at the prospect of another 5 years of Tory rule if only because a win might seem to give them a greater mandate to continue on their vicious course.

So, do we disengage from the fiasco of Westminster politics and simply work on a personal local agenda - community activism and so forth? Less than a century after women have died to secure a vote, a  refusal to participate seems simply wrong and yet, here we are, arguing ourselves into oblivion. I have no idea how a Labour partywill 'govern' but since I have been living under a Tory yoke for the last few years, I do have a very clear belief that I do NOT wish for more of their vile neo-liberal, one-sided rule.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

BigTom said:


> So you don't want to talk about alternatives then, ok, no probs, I've no interest in talking about electoral stuff, it doesn't fit into what I see as the strategy to improving things wrt social security & poverty, at least not while the "choice" is between two neo-liberal parties.



I never said i didn't want to talk about alternatives at all.

But we can't get very far if the tories remain in power. There will just be massive amounts of divide and rule which will hamper grassroots efforts from becoming powerful enough to force a change.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 14, 2014)

campanula said:


> So, do we disengage from the fiasco of Westminster politics and simply work on a personal local agenda - community activism and so forth? Less than a century after women have died to secure a vote, a  refusal to participate seems simply wrong and yet, here we are, arguing ourselves into oblivion. I have no idea how a Labour partywill 'govern' but since I have been living under a Tory yoke for the last few years, I do have a very clear belief that I do NOT wish for more of their vile neo-liberal, one-sided rule.



Yes. Westminster politics will only be responsive when there are stronger pressures on it from communities than from capital and at this point in time we've got 40 odd years of attacks on our communities to row back on before we can even get to the social democracy we had after wwII. At this point it seems like we're going to lose everything we won in the 20th century, because the communities and organisations that were able to put pressure on capital to gain a larger share of our production have been fucked on so badly. They need to be rebuilt. Thatcher's project to change the soul through economics has been very successful imo.

Women winning the vote was part of a different thing, and in terms of helping bring about gender equality it was a good tactic at the time, and a valuable victory, but that doesn't mean that we should always see voting as a useful tactic at all times and places.

Tory, Labour. Both vile neo-liberal one-sided parties. Nobody else is going  to win so talking of other parties seems pointless. What is the strategy (wrt poverty/social security campaigning) that finds the tactic of voting labour into power a useful tactic?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

andysays said:


> The quote is a pastiche of the SWP quote "Vote Labour with No Illusions" I would have thought that was obvious to everyone reading this thread. It also seems to me to be a pretty good summary of your position, so I was wondering if you'd got it off your alleged new friends the SP or dreamt it up yourself.
> 
> And as far as Labour promises go...



As far as labour promises go.... what? A clip from a shit band? 

Great.

"your alleged new friends"?


----------



## andysays (Nov 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> As far as labour promises go.... what? A clip from a shit band?
> 
> Great.
> 
> "your alleged new friends"?



Maybe you can see the significance of the lyrics to what we're discussing, maybe you can't

And anyone who says the Buzzcocks were shit clearly has no idea about *anything*, just confirms what we already knew


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

andysays said:


> Maybe you can see the significance of the lyrics to what we're discussing, maybe you can't
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've no idea what you think you already knew, or who 'we' refers to. Are you a collective? Are you the Borg?

I don't care about your video clip. It's a snide way of communicating.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2014)

Great - another thread made AWESOME.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Great - another thread made AWESOME.


fuck off then.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2014)

I reckon you shouldn't do this.


----------



## andysays (Nov 14, 2014)

So here's what we've learned today - videos are a snide way of communicating, but Star Trek memes and Sherlock gifs are where it's at.

These internet rules are proper confusing


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

andysays said:


> So here's what we've learned today - videos are a snide way of communicating, but Star Trek memes and Sherlock gifs are where it's at.
> 
> These internet rules are proper confusing


No i think the point I was making was quite clear with the words "fuck off then".

Yours wasn't. It was deliberately obscured within a video by a shit band. 

The gifs were simply icing on a cake for the benefit of a twat.

So in conclusion: i don't give a toss.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I reckon you shouldn't do this.


I reckon you should apologise for spending 12 months bullying me and then find a different forum to antagonise.

Oh, and stop lying about me as well.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I reckon you should apologise for spending 12 months bullying me and then find a different forum to antagonise.



Fan
tas
tic

You think i better leave.

You won't win this game. Don't play it.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Fan
> tas
> tic
> 
> ...


That you think bullying people and lying about what they have said is a game demonstrates what a sad little man you are. Again: if you are involved with the SP in Bristol, you've cost them a member.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> That you think bullying people and lying about what they have said is a game demonstrates what a sad little man you are. Again: if you are involved with the SP in Bristol, you've cost them a member.


Lucky them. This concludes your attempt at doing something.

Don't do this.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Lucky them. This concludes your attempt at doing something.
> 
> Don't do this.


Then apologise for your conduct and lies. 

If you think the extent of what I can do and what I will do then you really are deluded.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2014)

Get help lad. Before it is too late.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Get help lad. Before it is too late.


too late for what? 

Your melodrama is as pathetic as your behaviour and resorting to lying to defend your position? Oh dear.


----------



## killer b (Nov 14, 2014)

I suppose it needs demonstrating occasionally, but really guys: there's no fucking point.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

So bullied people should roll over while the majority victim blame? 

Given the attitude of some of the people in this thread and their contribution to the threads about gamergate/feminism that is, to put it kindly, ironic.


----------



## killer b (Nov 14, 2014)

I wasn't talking to you.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2014)

killer b said:


> I wasn't talking to you.


and that was obvious how?


----------



## killer b (Nov 14, 2014)

I don't suppose it was, to you. Anyway, you know now.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> That you think bullying people and lying about what they have said is a game demonstrates what a sad little man you are. Again: if you are involved with the SP in Bristol, you've cost them a member.


Big socialist party quiz - jan (that's how slow they are) -stag and hounds? Up for it?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Big socialist party quiz - jan (that's how slow they are) -stag and hounds? Up for it?


Did you think I was joking?

I won't be sharing a platform with someone who behaves in the woodsy way to another add you do , on our offline. As you're obviously a member I will be handing in my card and they can decide what to do about it, if anything.

You seem to find no fault in the fact you're a bully and think it's all a joke, I don't. Never mind your nasty little smear yesterday.


----------



## killer b (Nov 15, 2014)

oh god.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 15, 2014)

campanula said:


> Possibly because I am old and stupid, but I feel impaled on the horns of a dilemma since it seems, as far as parliamentary democracy goes, the only game in town still revolves around the 2 parties, Labour/Tory. While I can see that a: politicians have limited power since they are mere puppets for a wider invisible corporate ownership of power and b: there are few substantive differences between them, this leaves me feeling that a non-vote is my only option...and yet, this is reprehensible, indeed, almost impossible to willingly disenfranchise myself further by destroying a ballot paper or simply not bothering. I do feel horror at the prospect of another 5 years of Tory rule if only because a win might seem to give them a greater mandate to continue on their vicious course.
> 
> So, do we disengage from the fiasco of Westminster politics and simply work on a personal local agenda - community activism and so forth? Less than a century after women have died to secure a vote, a  refusal to participate seems simply wrong and yet, here we are, arguing ourselves into oblivion. I have no idea how a Labour partywill 'govern' but since I have been living under a Tory yoke for the last few years, I do have a very clear belief that I do NOT wish for more of their vile neo-liberal, one-sided rule.



Your mention of suffrage brings to mind the fact that the polity back, as well as the influence the electorate (local and national) could exert, is vastly different. In the '20s and '30s, arguably up till the '70s, one could exercise a degree of control over local situations at least through membership of the mainstream parties, and over your local authority. That's gone now. Belonging to a constituency party means rubber-stamping council ward slates and the selection committee's choice of MP. It's about putting people in place who have the best interests of the party at heart, while back when we actually had some power within the local parties, it was about electing people constituencies and especially to wards who had the interests of *their* electorate at heart.
People are demotivated at least partially by the fact that their vote is meaningless in terms of actually controlling what happens on a local or a national scale - why bother to vote when all your vote does is rubber-stamp some ruling class cuntwipe's "right" to exert power over you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 15, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> As far as labour promises go.... what? A clip from a shit band?



Nice to know that you judge one of the seminal pop-punk bands to come out of the punk explosion to be shit. Yet another thing to mark you conspicuously as a tasteless, meretricious arsewipe.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 15, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I reckon you should apologise for spending 12 months bullying me and then find a different forum to antagonise.
> 
> Oh, and stop lying about me as well.



it's somewhat of a narrative for you, these claims of bullying, and not just as Awesome Wells, but in your prior incarnation too. Has it ever occurred to you that the problem isn't about bullying, it's about your inability to take criticism, and your need to believe you're being bullied, in order to preserve your sense of identity? You wouldn't be the first to enjoy constructing a martyr complex for themselves.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 15, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nice to know that you judge one of the seminal pop-punk bands to come out of the punk explosion to be shit. Yet another thing to mark you conspicuously as a tasteless, meretricious arsewipe.


At least I don't believe in supernatural bullshit and bully people. You judgemental twat.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 15, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> it's somewhat of a narrative for you, these claims of bullying, and not just as Awesome Wells, but in your prior incarnation too. Has it ever occurred to you that the problem isn't about bullying, it's about your inability to take criticism, and your need to believe you're being bullied, in order to preserve your sense of identity? You wouldn't be the first to enjoy constructing a martyr complex for themselves.


No, the problem is bullying. Something that is clearly tolerated on this website.

No wonder the left can't get it together.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 15, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Did you think I was joking?
> 
> I won't be sharing a platform with someone who behaves in the woodsy way to another add you do , on our offline. As you're obviously a member I will be handing in my card and they can decide what to do about it, if anything.
> 
> You seem to find no fault in the fact you're a bully and think it's all a joke, I don't. Never mind your nasty little smear yesterday.


Could you post up your outraged resignation letter to people you've never met about someone who isn't in their party explaining why you have to leave please?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 15, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Could you post up your outraged resignation letter to people you've never met about someone who isn't in their party explaining why you have to leave please?


Why would I do that? To which people are you referring?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2014)

> *14
> Nov 2014*
> *Judge brands DWP jobseeker’s agreement ‘unlawful’, after action by disabled claimant*
> By john pring
> ...



http://disabilitynewsservice.com/20...-agreement-unlawful-action-disabled-claimant/


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 16, 2014)

What does this mean though? IDS will just ignore it like he does everything; the DWP still hasn't disclosed the names of the Workfare providers it has on record despite the information commissionare saying they have to (iirc). 

Wasn't there an earlier case where someone sought clarification after getting harassment regarding their jobsearch. It was to do with what was considered reasonable, in terms of the JSA regulations vs. the JC telling them to apply for silly numbers of jobs (setting them up to fail, the whole point of all this). A judge or decision maker of some kind said that it was reasonable to take 3 or 4 steps each week, not ten times that as the JC seemed to think they had to (and failed to do).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 16, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> At least I don't believe in supernatural bullshit and bully people. You judgemental twat.



You keep claiming that you don't bully people, but you do, in the very way you attack *anyone *who doesn't agree with you, and in the way you arrogantly dismiss any idea that isn't yours.
And you too believe in "supernatural bullshit". Atheism is your religion, and Dawkins one of your g-ds.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 16, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You keep claiming that you don't bully people, but you do, in the very way you attack *anyone *who doesn't agree with you, and in the way you arrogantly dismiss any idea that isn't yours.
> And you too believe in "supernatural bullshit". Atheism is your religion, and Dawkins one of your g-ds.


I don't attack everyone who disagrees with me. I have attacked some people, but not just for disagreeing with nor, nor have i 'arrogantly' dismissed every idea that isn't mine. In fact I didn't even dismiss your views in that witchcraft thread wherein you decided to attack me for no reason (you certainly haven't provided one despite being asked) and I did not even question your beliefs never mind ridicule them.

Ironic that you think you have the right to criticise the conduct of other users given your own attitude to a great many other posters that I have seen.
And atheism isn't a religion; it is a position. That's all. The only god i worship is geezer butler


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 17, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I don't attack everyone who disagrees with me. I have attacked some people, but not just for disagreeing with nor, nor have i 'arrogantly' dismissed every idea that isn't mine. In fact I didn't even dismiss your views in that witchcraft thread wherein you decided to attack me for no reason (you certainly haven't provided one despite being asked) and I did not even question your beliefs never mind ridicule them.
> 
> Ironic that you think you have the right to criticise the conduct of other users given your own attitude to a great many other posters that I have seen.
> And atheism isn't a religion; it is a position. That's all. The only god i worship is geezer butler



You don't do reflexivity, do you? If you did, you'd realise how hilariously ironic such a post is, coming from you.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You don't do reflexivity, do you? If you did, you'd realise how hilariously ironic such a post is, coming from you.


"comingfrom me"

So, not patronising at all then. And again as dishonest and evasive as ever. I asked you several times, quite openly and quite politely, to explain what your problem was. All you could do then, as now, is resort to this kind of silly provocative rhetoric.

I've no idea what reflexivity is or whether my post encompassed it or even whether that is 'hilariously ironic'. Does it matter? Not really.


----------



## MooChild (Nov 17, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I've no idea what reflexivity is


This much is apparent.



> Does it matter?


Very much. If you aren't able to reflect upon your own interactions with other people to see where you may be going wrong, you will repeat the same mistakes over and over. 

But I've tried to go through this with you, and it's hopeless, as you believe you are never wrong.
Instead of attacking everyone who offers you advice, perhaps try listening to them, you might learn something.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 17, 2014)

MooChild said:


> This much is apparent.
> 
> 
> Very much. If you aren't able to reflect upon your own interactions with other people to see where you may be going wrong, you will repeat the same mistakes over and over.
> ...


Actually you haven't. 

What do you think I am wrong about? 

What advice did violentpanda offer?

Why are you ignoring my request for him to simply explain his position? You are being extremely selective in your reading of the situation, which is entirely the problem: noone has ever said that butchersapron should stop bullying me, noone has ever even conceded the point that, after being asked to stop, he ought to back off. Yet these people continue, and here we are with another member of the peanut gallery attacking me completely unprovoked. I have never insulted violentpanda at all and yet, all of a sudden, he lashes out at me. Yet you seem to ignore that, why?


----------



## MooChild (Nov 17, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Actually you haven't.
> 
> What do you think I am wrong about?
> 
> ...



I'm not going to get into a "prove this, prove that" discussion with you, as it's ultimately futile.
All I'm saying is that you could do with some self-reflection as to why you immediately go on the offensive whenever anyone questions anything you post, but I've said this to you before anyway, and it was ignored. (And no, I'm not going to prove that either).


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 17, 2014)

MooChild said:


> I'm not going to get into a "prove this, prove that" discussion with you, as it's ultimately futile.
> All I'm saying is that you could do with some self-reflection as to why you immediately go on the offensive whenever anyone questions anything you post, but I've said this to you before anyway, and it was ignored. (And no, I'm not going to prove that either).



So you set me up to fail: it's only futile because you refuse to engage with the questions I asked you. Neither of which were remotely offensive.

I said that I didn't know what reflexivity was; in response you insulted me as a prelude to telling me my failings. Now when I ask you to back up your claims you decide you take your ball and go home?

Now you're telling me I need to self reflect? But you don't explain why this is necessary and you refuse to see both sides. Show me where I went on the offensive with violentpanda? Explain to me why you ignore the bullying behaviour of other forum users, but feel it necessary to criticise my behaviour?

That is not just ironic, it's very insulting. You accused me of not following advice in direct reply to me responding to violentpanda, who refuses to be honest, and then when I ask you to qualify your statements and back them up, you don't like it? That's fair to you is it?

You have not 'been through anything' with me. I have one PM from you and that's it, and it isn't going over anything. If all people can do on this site is be dishonest and evasive and refuse to even back up their own statements you might as well ban me. That is exactly the kind of behaviour i regard as bullying.


----------



## MooChild (Nov 17, 2014)

Whatever, you don't get 'it', it's obvious to everyone else that you attack when your position is threatened, and it's obvious to everyone else that you can't see this, and are unwilling to do anything about it.

When you boil down all of the issues you have with this site, it's always everyone else, it's never you. That is what you don't get.
If it was an 80/20 split, where you have even once (just once) realised you were in the wrong, then people would be more willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Alas, it's never you, you have never admitted you were wrong once, ever, to my knowledge in any discussion on this forum, all you do is throw out the name of some random fallacies you read about and go into full on denial. (*awaits straw man accusation*).

Don't you think it's odd that through all of your posts, you have never changed your position on anything, and always go on the offensive when anyone has a different opinion to you?
And no, again, I'm not going to find proof of this, in case you want to ask.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 17, 2014)

MooChild said:


> Whatever, you don't get 'it',



You've just dismissed everything I've said in the most offhand way. Do you not see how this is exactly the point I'm making?



> it's obvious to everyone else that you attack when your position is threatened, and it's obvious to everyone else that you can't see this, and are unwilling to do anything about it.



These are judgements. You expect me to blindly agree with them despite refusing to justify your position and then have the nerve to dismiss what I say? What position are you referring to? Again, you are refusing to back up what you say. How can anyone possibly respond to a position such as this? All you are doing is demanding that I agree with you unconditionally whilst accusing me of being intransigent. This is completely hypocritical. Then when I point this oiut you dismiss it by saying "whatever". That's childish.



> When you boil down all of the issues you have with this site, it's always everyone else, it's never you. That is what you don't get.



I understand the point, I don't agree with it which is why you need to back up your position. Whenever someone on this site is asked to evidence their position they respond with abuse. Same thing with the feminist thread. Accusations were made against my behaviour, I asked for evidence, I got abuse. That's fair to your mind is it? Or will the answer just be "whatever"? Not much point even entering into a dialogue is there if that's your attitude, which is itself insulting.



> If it was an 80/20 split, where you have even once (just once) realised you were in the wrong, then people would be more willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.



If what was and 80/20 split. I don't knoiw what you are referring to because you aren't backing up what you say. 

You are also completely ignoring everything i've said. This suggests you are ok with users bullying others. 12 months of butchersaprons nonsense and still you ignore the fact that the whole process was instigated by him yet when I lose my patience with it - after asking him to stop quite reasonably (and trying to raise it with moderators who don't seem to want to moderate) - I'm the bad guy? If that's your position then you really aren't fit to be contributing here.



> Alas, it's never you, you have never admitted you were wrong once, ever, to my knowledge in any discussion on this forum, all you do is throw out the name of some random fallacies you read about and go into full on denial. (*awaits straw man accusation*).


_To your knowledge._

I haven't accused anyone of making a strawman unless I feel they have done so. Do you not see again how provocative you are being by saying things like " (*awaits straw man accusation*)"

Are you saying you have read every post I have made? Do you really not understand why fallacious arguments are a problem or why it's dishonest (not to say even more fallacious) to criticise someone for pointing out when they are being, for example, straw manned? Is it acceptable to you to misrepresent other people's points and then try and justify it by further insulting them after they point out the fallacy being used? Is that honest in your opinion?


> Don't you think it's odd that through all of your posts, you have never changed your position on anything, and always go on the offensive when anyone has a different opinion to you?
> And no, again, I'm not going to find proof of this, in case you want to ask.



Are you really saying that people who, assuming this is true (i can't remembver everything I have posted so I cann't say whether or not it is a true statement), don't change their position deserve to be bullied? Again you need to provide an example. Why should I change my position? I would only need to do that if new evidence presented itself that merited it? I shouldn't have to change my position to suit the mob. What is inherently wrong with believing my position is correct? Noone takes a position they don't think is correct do they.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2014)

Just stop. Or go.


----------



## MooChild (Nov 17, 2014)

Trying to get you to see sense is like pushing water uphill with a broom. Futile, pointless and you get nowhere.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 17, 2014)

MooChild said:


> Trying to get you to see sense is like pushing water uphill with a broom. Futile, pointless and you get nowhere.


What sense? What exactly do you want me to say? I've asked you for examples, evidence and I've asked you to back up your position. I have engaged directly with what you've said, and yet again you dismissed me. How then is this you trying to get me to see anything? It's only futile because you are refusing to engage.


----------



## MooChild (Nov 17, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> What sense? What exactly do you want me to say? I've asked you for examples, evidence and I've asked you to back up your position. I have engaged directly with what you've said, and yet again you dismissed me. How then is this you trying to get me to see anything? It's only futile because you are refusing to engage.



Whatever I say next, no matter how well quoted or sourced, will not make you change your position. Ergo, it is pointless.
Jesus Christ himself could come down from heaven and tell you that you were wrong, with printed examples, and it wouldn't be enough. Ergo, it is pointless trying to engage you in a debate. You consider yourself infallible, it is pointless me trying. I've tried before (and no, I'm not going to quote where), and it was pointless then, and it's pointless now.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 17, 2014)

I don't often get the chance to read this thread anymore. When I do, I really don't expect this shite!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 17, 2014)

MooChild said:


> Whatever I say next, no matter how well quoted or sourced, will not make you change your position. Ergo, it is pointless.



So you've been asked to provide evidence after making a number of claims about me. You've repeatedly said talking to me is futile despite my responding directly to everything you've said. But before I can even respond to the evidence you keep refusing to provide, and continually avoiding my questions including requests to comment on the behaviour of others (you see fit to comment on mine), you've already made up your mind and decided that you know how i'm going to respond.

_And you see nothing wrong with that at all?_

By all means chuck your toys out the pram. I've engaged with you directly, despite being accused of doing otherwise. I don't think you're in any position to criticise my conduct at all.


----------



## MooChild (Nov 17, 2014)

Just agree to disagree, and go back to the thread at hand. I'm done hoping you will change your ways.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 17, 2014)

MooChild said:


> Just agree to disagree, and go back to the thread at hand. I'm done hoping you will change your ways.


I don't agree to disagree at all. You've made a number of claims about me and refused to justify them why should I agree to that? You haven't even made your case in respect of any 'ways'. 

You begain this exchange and now, again, I'm getting clobbered for it. Nice.


----------



## MooChild (Nov 17, 2014)

Let it go, leave it. I'm done.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 17, 2014)

http://www.motherwelltimes.co.uk/ne...ties-with-controversial-work-scheme-1-3603623

some good workfare news:

LAMH recycling - the firm that someone was sent back to after being there on the old Future Jobs Fund scheme's job - has pulled out after the protests against their involvement. 

This is why they won't release the names, and why we need to keep pushing at the providers we do still know about.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 18, 2014)

> *Poor lose and rich gain from direct tax and benefit changes since 2010 - without cutting the deficit at all*
> *Rich got richer while deficit untouched by Coalition tax and benefit policies, study finds*
> 14 Nov 2014



Summary
https://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/2014/1...since-2010-without-cutting-the-deficit-at-all

Full report
http://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/spcc/wp10.pdf


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Summary
> https://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/2014/1...since-2010-without-cutting-the-deficit-at-all
> 
> Full report
> http://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/spcc/wp10.pdf



In fact, not only has the deficit not been reduced, we're deeper in the hole than when the coalition came to power, and as Ed Balls has promised to stick to coalition spending limits/austerity policy, we'll probably go even deeper in the hole with Labour - you can't build a steady economy when people are having to think twice about every purchase, and certainly not when social security, wages and employment policy make sure there's less cash floating around.


----------



## treelover (Nov 18, 2014)

> The government planned to “modernise” the DSA, which students in England can receive to meet the extra study costs arising from their disabilities, long-term mental and physical health conditions, and learning difficulties.
> Some changes have been postponed for at least two years after protests from students. But from 2015, many of the provisions the DSA currently pays for, such as standard computers for disabled students, will no longer be covered.
> Chloe Metzger, 20, a student at Kingston University, receives the DSA for her anxiety and dyslexia. She gets one-on-one mentoring and dyslexia support, along with a laptop, printer and various software.
> “Before I started with my mental health mentor, I was a different person,” she says. “I’ve learned to live with my conditions and can look forward to the future.”
> ...



FFS, the DSA is a must for disabled students...


----------



## Roadkill (Nov 19, 2014)

Guardian story: Government dismisses study linking use of food banks to benefit cuts.

Pretty much typical of this shitty government, IMO.


----------



## treelover (Nov 19, 2014)

Remember the Tories dismissal of the Black Report in the 80's, they don't change.


----------



## chainsawjob (Nov 26, 2014)

A FOI request has caused the DWP to admit it has carried out sixty secret investigations into benefit related deaths in the last three years, reported by Disability News Service here.



> John McArdle, co-founder of Black Triangle, said that if 60 people had died in a major accident there would have been “hell to pay” and a “massive inquiry”.
> 
> He said NHS figures showed a general rise in self-harm and suicide, which Black Triangle (BT) believes is connected with the effects of “cuts and austerity”.
> 
> ...



Also mentioned in an article in the Independent here.


----------



## chainsawjob (Nov 29, 2014)

More kicking... new measures to be piloted to get tougher on ill/disabled people.



> Today we are announcing a package of ESA measures to improve further the support we offer disabled people and people with health conditions.
> 
> “In early 2015 we are introducing a number of pilots to help us better understand what support ESA claimants need to help them move back into work. The more intensive support pilot will increase the frequency and intensity of Work Coach support for the first six months following completion of the Work Programme.
> 
> ...



http://www.welfareweekly.com/dwp-gets-tough-sickness-benefit-claimants/


----------



## Greebo (Nov 29, 2014)

chainsawjob said:


> More kicking... new measures to be piloted to get tougher on ill/disabled people. <snip>


FFS


----------



## Frankie Jack (Dec 2, 2014)

Benefit sanctioning - Paul Blomfield
Tuesday 2 December 2014
Westminster Hall
Meeting started at 9.29am. Ended at 11.22am

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=16567

McVague alert!! She's still spouting the Tory line. Getting people closer to the job market etc. etc. I fkn despise that blert!

And the Hansard. Still being updated at posting.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...mons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/186/


----------



## gridlock (Dec 5, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> I dunno about anyone else, but I'm sick of seeing people say "why doesn't someone do something" (yes, I know actually some people are, but y'know...).
> 
> Let's do something.  I'm in south London.  What I'd like to see is ideas for tactics/strategy on this thread and to arrange an initial meeting.
> 
> Anyone up for it?  Or am I pissing in the wind?



I'm in Cardiff. Anyone know of any action groups there??


----------



## treelover (Dec 9, 2014)

> ‘This AGM calls for urgent action to halt the abrogation of the human rights of sick and disabled people by the ruling Coalition government and its associated corporate contractors.
> Calls for Amnesty International UK to urgently work with grassroots human rights campaigns by and for sick and disabled people, carers and their families. And to set up a specialist Disability Human Rights network…..
> To protect the human rights of people with disabilities, ill people and carers to halt this regressive and lethal assault on our rights.’



https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petitio..._Iain_Duncan_Smith_for_crimes_agains/?adhcAbb

Posted on petition to indict Cameron and Smith, I wouldn't be too hopeful though,  I remember contacting Liberty about these issues, they didn't want to know, apparently benefits are 'ringfenced' from their areas of concern.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 16, 2014)

> *Beyond foodbanks ... how austerity is destroying the lives of many ordinary Scots*
> No hot water for baths, money too tight for school trips - even burying the dead is too expensive Exclusive by Judith Duffy



http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...ing-the-lives-of-many-ordinary-scots.26083443


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 16, 2014)

> *The Tories’ plan for poor people: stop them breeding*
> Iain Duncan Smith’s call for ‘behavioural change’ revives an old party trope of sneering at the lower orders



http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...r-people-iain-duncan-smith-behavioural-change


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 17, 2014)

Leeds council is going to cut council tax benefit for unemployed working age people:

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....b-or-lose-your-council-tax-benefits-1-7007859



> As part of the revised scheme, “non-protected working age” CTS claimants will receive 25 per cent less than they would have got through the CTB scheme and will have to pay a quarter of their council tax bill themselves from April 1 2015.



That's a couple of hundred quid a year for a Band A property.  Labour council, but they'll argue that they're constrained by government cuts to the CT benefit grant, so pick on the already demonised targets.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 17, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> Leeds council is going to cut council tax benefit for unemployed working age people:
> 
> http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....b-or-lose-your-council-tax-benefits-1-7007859
> 
> ...



Which will almost certainly mean that either next year or the year after, because of further cuts (and there *will* be further cuts, because neoliberal economic "logic" dictates that there must be), they'll do the same to disabled people who either get a concessionary rate or full CTB.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which will almost certainly mean that either next year or the year after, because of further cuts (and there *will* be further cuts, because neoliberal economic "logic" dictates that there must be), they'll do the same to disabled people who either get a concessionary rate or full CTB.



They'll just have to cut back on flat screen tellies, drugs and booze, right?

Mind, I think the press and the pool of wisdom that is local newspaper commentators have decided that tattoos are the new flat screen tellies, as far as right wing tropes for attacking the poor go.  They don't like that Jack Monroe.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 17, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> They'll just have to cut back on flat screen tellies, drugs and booze, right?



How do I cut back on something (a flat screen telly) that I don't have?
As for drugs, all of mine are prescription!



> Mind, I think the press and the pool of wisdom that is local newspaper commentators have decided that tattoos are the new flat screen tellies, as far as right wing tropes for attacking the poor go.  They don't like that Jack Monroe.



They don't like anyone who doesn't fit their simplistic set of stereotypes, to be fair.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> How do I cut back on something (a flat screen telly) that I don't have?



What you're supposed to do if you don't have a flat screen telly is berate people poorer than you that do.  I think that's how it's supposed to work.

There's must be some bufton tufton types out there that think these things still cost five grand, rather than being the sort of thing you can pull out of skips these days.

(I'm stubbornly sticking with my CRT telly until it breaks, barely watch the thing)


----------



## treelover (Dec 20, 2014)

On the Broadcast news, Sky, etc, Esther McVile's Christmas present for the over 50's: more intensive 'help' for the over 50's.

Which will mean more sanctions, cheap labour, misery

and why does the MSM take what the Govt say on benefit issues, etc at face value, they don't in other areas of the economy, etc.


----------



## treelover (Dec 20, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> Leeds council is going to cut council tax benefit for unemployed working age people:
> 
> http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....b-or-lose-your-council-tax-benefits-1-7007859
> 
> ...




Shows how 'localism' can be very brutal and reactionary, parish relief redux, the Tories knew this when they de-centralised Council Tax Relief


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 9, 2015)

Sue Marsh has gone over to the dark side. 


WHAT. THE. ACTUAL. FUCK..!!! 



> ""And so to the point. From today, I will be responsible for making sure that as many of those improvements are made during this period of change and pause as possible. MAXIMUS have asked me to be their Head of Customer Experience, and it seems, have given me fairly free reign to devise a strategy to bring about a wide range of improvements to the service from a customer perspective.
> The job covers all aspects of customer experience and the easiest thing I can do is copy the job description below.  I hope anyone I've already lost to explosions of horror might at least take a look at it and imagine me doing the job. It is not insignificant in scope. ""



Her 'New Job'


----------



## Greebo (Jan 9, 2015)

Frankie Jack said:


> Sue Marsh has gone over to the dark side.<snip>
> 
> Her 'New Job'


Judas goat


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 9, 2015)

I had this in mind Greebo


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 9, 2015)

Oooh. That pic is a tad large. Still, it's as in yer face as many feel this 'appointment' to be.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 9, 2015)

Sue was always a bit on the edge, labour party reformist type, but I'm surprised and saddened she's gone to work for fucking Maximus, I wonder if it was still ATOS doing the assessments whether she'd have taken a job there.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 9, 2015)

BigTom said:


> Sue was always a bit on the edge, labour party reformist type, but I'm surprised and saddened she's gone to work for fucking Maximus, I wonder if it was still ATOS doing the assessments whether she'd have taken a job there.


She was 'talking' to Atos before the Maximus contract was announced. 
Edit. It was Unum she was talking to BigTom 

The Unum Paradox

This....


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 9, 2015)

The job.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 9, 2015)

DPAC have responded by calling a day of action against Maximus (actually think they were going to call it anyway, this just speeded things up).  But please share, tweet etc: http://dpac.uk.net/2015/01/disabled-claimants-welcome-to-maximus-march-2nd-everywhere/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 9, 2015)

http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2015/01/leading-wca-campaigner-swaps-sides-join-maximus/

"" She insisted that she was the best person for the job, and added: “If I can’t get things a little bit more right I don’t think anyone could.” ""

The ego has landed.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 9, 2015)

I'm surprised by the lack of comment on this to be honest.


----------



## NoXion (Jan 10, 2015)

Frankie Jack said:


> I'm surprised by the lack of comment on this to be honest.



I'm not too familiar with Sue Marsh, so I can't tell if her taking the Maximus shilling was a cynical move on her part, or whether her desperation/naivete motivated her.

But in either case, this is definitely a cynical ploy on the part of Maximus. However I sense an opportunity here to expose their hypocrisy; regardless of whether Marsh's intentions are sincere or otherwise, I very much doubt that Maximus will clean up their act in any meaningful way. These cunts are in it for the money and anything else is purely incidental, which is why I'm disappointed, angry even, that there isn't more outrage over these grasping poverty pimps.

I just don't get why more people don't notice the huge disconnect between the fact that so much emphasis is placed on the supposed importance of being in work, and the fact that absolutely nobody is obligated to garuantee a paying job to anybody. And even when somebody gets a job, that's no assurance that the pay will be enough to live on without some kind of assistance, especially these days. What seems so obvious to me seems to completely fly over the heads of all too many people, even those people whose position in life should make the contradiction plain, or so one would think.

There are still more people seeking work than there are vacancies, despite the politicians crowing about the improving economy (I haven't actually checked the latest figures, but I am reasonably certain). As long as that is the case, that means punishing people for being unemployed (via sanctions, absurd JSA conditions, workfare and every day signing) absolutely cannot have anything to do with getting people into work. Indeed, I would argue that regardless of the status of the job market, benefits sanctions actually demonstrably harm a jobseeker's prospects of finding work, as their time and effort is diverted more on trying to survive than on jobseeking. How is one expected to be able to do well at interviews if one has not eaten sufficiently, or if one cannot afford to wash clothes properly? Haven't there also been reports/studies that show the ineffectiveness of crap like the Work Program as well?

I'm sorry that this post has devolved into a generalised rant, but I'm really feeling this after having my last job end. I'm back under the yoke of the DWP and it's just so frustrating when I see newspaper headlines drip-drip-drip their poison into the social discourse with their outrageous stories about a statistically insignificant minority of claimants (or if there aren't any that day, they just make shit up). It makes me feel like shit, and I'm a young and reasonably healthy person with no mental issues. I can only imagine how much worse it must be for those less fortunate than I am. 

It sometimes seems that present society has a severe empathy deficit, which unlike the financial deficit causes real harm to actual human beings. There is some consolation in the fact that this empathy deficit is environmentally produced rather than inherent, but I can't help but worry about how long before it's properly addressed.

FUCK


----------



## Greebo (Jan 10, 2015)

https://www.change.org/p/sue-marsh-maximus-customer-service-letter-of-discontent

A round robin in the shape of a petition about Sue Marsh and her unfortunate decision.


----------



## smokedout (Jan 14, 2015)

Frankie Jack said:


> I'm surprised by the lack of comment on this to be honest.



Jack Monroe's been tweeting inspirational mother theresa quotes at her to make her feel better about being criticised for selling out.  These  people are fucking poison.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 14, 2015)

smokedout said:


> Jack Monroe's been tweeting inspirational mother theresa quotes at her to make her feel better about being criticised for selling out.  These  people are fucking poison.


I noticed.


----------



## 8115 (Jan 19, 2015)

.


----------



## treelover (Jan 21, 2015)

Frankie Jack said:


> Sue Marsh has gone over to the dark side.
> 
> 
> WHAT. THE. ACTUAL. FUCK..!!!
> ...




Just seen this, (can't basically read anymore about this war on the sick)incredible really, though Frankie did regularly air her massive concerns about her, I think I saw a change over the years I was reading her blog, works, and I hate to say it but I think it was when she could see an opportunity/s developing for herself, she really did sacrifice a lot to do her original campaigning, but this, this is shit....


----------



## treelover (Jan 21, 2015)

Btw, she has done this on the backs of hundreds who helped her, even helped fund her in the bad times, (including me) pretty depressed really.


----------



## treelover (Jan 21, 2015)

NoXion said:


> I'm not too familiar with Sue Marsh, so I can't tell if her taking the Maximus shilling was a cynical move on her part, or whether her desperation/naivete motivated her.
> 
> But in either case, this is definitely a cynical ploy on the part of Maximus. However I sense an opportunity here to expose their hypocrisy; regardless of whether Marsh's intentions are sincere or otherwise, I very much doubt that Maximus will clean up their act in any meaningful way. These cunts are in it for the money and anything else is purely incidental, which is why I'm disappointed, angry even, that there isn't more outrage over these grasping poverty pimps.
> 
> ...



Most people just aren't interested, the Day of Action in March will I predict see low numbers considering there have been more deaths and misery the last few years than caused by the other issues that civil society and the left, etc get exercised about.




> Jobs revival’ in spotlight as most of those who lose benefits fail to find work
> Coalition’s claims under scrutiny after research shows only a fifth of 2m people find employment after losing jobseeker’s allowance
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/20/jobs-revival-benefits-work-jobseekers-allowance




The news above shows that the 'reforms' have been a failure even on the Tories terms, but if it collapses it won't be because of the above groups actions.


----------



## treelover (Jan 21, 2015)

> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ts-firebrand-s-job-disability-tests-firm.html



It's even in the DM, its clear she want to 'cut the number in the support group' its sickening


----------



## Kesher (Jan 21, 2015)

Excellent programme on sanctions  here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04yk7h6


----------



## Greebo (Jan 21, 2015)

Kesher said:


> Excellent programme on sanctions  here <snip>


File on 4 from last night, you mean? Reasonable coverage, but people oblivious to the situation with benefit sanctions won't listen to it.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 21, 2015)

hope this is ok to post here
from Coffee4Craig who do street kitchens in Manchester and Cardiff as well as doing their best to support people they come across in other practical ways.
Coffee 4 Craig was set up after Craig White from Manchester died on the streets of Cardiff
http://coffee4craig.com/


> ***Manchester****
> 
> Tuesday street kitchen... A lesson for me....
> 
> ...


----------



## campanula (Jan 27, 2015)

treelover said:


> Just seen this, (can't basically read anymore about this war on the sick)incredible really, though Frankie did regularly air her massive concerns about her, I think I saw a change over the years I was reading her blog, works, and I hate to say it but I think it was when she could see an opportunity/s developing for herself, she really did sacrifice a lot to do her original campaigning, but this, this is shit....





Bloody Hell - bought off for 60K...and working for the enemy. Despicable. Total integrity fail.


----------



## 8115 (Feb 4, 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...adviser-play-benefit-sanctions-angela-neville

Interesting article about a former jobcentre adviser, a play she has written and her memories of what it was like to work there.  She is very critical.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2015)

8115 said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/society/...adviser-play-benefit-sanctions-angela-neville
> 
> Interesting article about a former jobcentre adviser, a play she has written and her memories of what it was like to work there.  She is very critical.



And yet, despite the sheer volume of testimony from former jobcentre advisors, the DWP *still* pooh-pooh any mention of sanctions targets.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 5, 2015)

Loads of evidence uploaded here:



> *Damning evidence of DWP sanction targets floods committee from within DWP*
> 
> *Damning evidence of sanction targets floods committee*



https://endpropaganda.wordpress.com...ion-targets-floods-committee-from-within-dwp/


----------



## treelover (Feb 5, 2015)

> *In a particularly pernicious move on the part of the government, the law has been changed to allow the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) to **share universal credit claimants’ personal data **with social landlords, councils and charities. The information that can be shared includes not only details of benefits, but also of debts, computer literacy and, most alarming of all, **medical records**.*
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/...dehumanise-benefit-claimants?CMP=share_btn_tw



This is the work of a authoritarian state, where is Liberty, etc?


----------



## treelover (Feb 5, 2015)

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/bene...ta-to-be-shared-from-february/7007964.article

anyone have access?


----------



## 8115 (Feb 27, 2015)

I saw a really worrying article this week about benefit fraud investigations being outsourced and companies being under pressure to meet targets so sending what were essentially "phishing" letters with no prior proof of fraud.

I wish I could find the article, imagine the stress and worry that could cause.  People should know if this is happening.

eta - it could be this http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ing-wrongly-accused-of-cheating-10060745.html

So, tax credits rather than strictly benefits.  But still.


----------



## smokedout (Mar 1, 2015)

Tomorrow!

http://dpac.uk.net/2015/02/your-all...l-day-of-action-2nd-march-scrapwca-maximarse/


----------



## 8115 (Mar 2, 2015)

Dispatches on C4 now about "Britains Benefits Crackdown".  Apparently 93,000 children are living with a parent who has been affected by benefit sanctions.

I don't know how good the program is, just turned it on.


----------



## treelover (Mar 3, 2015)

smokedout said:


> Tomorrow!
> 
> http://dpac.uk.net/2015/02/your-all-in-one-guide-to-the-maximus-national-day-of-action-2nd-march-scrapwca-maximarse/




Looking at the images, turn out wasn't brilliant, what more can they do?

I call 'hierarchy of oppression' in the uk


----------



## 8115 (Mar 7, 2015)

Article about council tax cuts.

http://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2015/mar/06/council-tax-system-broken


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Mar 17, 2015)

This is just fucking appalling, particularly for people with fluctuating conditions like M.E. It's been sneaked through on the quiet too. No money for six months or longer if you make a repeat claim or appeal. Will Labour repeal it if they get in? Will they fuck.


----------



## treelover (Mar 27, 2015)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32084722

Tory plans to remove/cut seven benefits including disability ones.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2015)

treelover said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32084722
> 
> Tory plans to remove/cut seven benefits including disability ones.



That's not what the link says, is it? It says they're considering proposal generated by DWP civil servants. Nothing about "plans".

Why do you do this hysterical hyperbolic shite?


----------



## 8115 (Apr 9, 2015)

Food for thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...work-the-vicious-circle-of-having-no-internet


----------



## Wilf (Apr 13, 2015)

8115 said:


> Food for thought.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/...work-the-vicious-circle-of-having-no-internet


Fuck, fuck, fuck...


----------



## coley (Apr 16, 2015)

My niece has to do six days unpaid at a local shop, each shift is 7 hrs with a half hour break in order to qualify for her JA,this is for a month.
Now she has been told she has to apply for carers allowance ( she lives with her grandmother and helps her around the house)
What are they up to?


----------



## superfly101 (Apr 16, 2015)

coley said:


> My niece has to do six days unpaid at a local shop, each shift is 7 hrs with a half hour break in order to qualify for her JA,this is for a month.
> Now she has been told she has to apply for carers allowance ( she lives with her grandmother and helps her around the house)
> What are they up to?



Page 9 here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/420990/mandatory-work-activity-april-15.pdf

Although earlier it states those claiming CA are a claimant group that can be mandated? 

You 'should' be able to negotiate participation/hours due to other responsibilities caring being one of them. What evidence you need well I don't know. But check that everything conforms letters, notification, procedures, etc and how to appeal against it.  

Also if your Mum gets DLA or PIP middle or standard and does not get any SDP payment because of her not living alone your daughter 'maybe' able to claim CA. Run the numbers through a benefit checker for both claims.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 16, 2015)

coley said:


> My niece has to do six days unpaid at a local shop, each shift is 7 hrs with a half hour break in order to qualify for her JA,this is for a month.
> Now she has been told she has to apply for carers allowance ( she lives with her grandmother and helps her around the house)
> What are they up to?



Do you know the name of the scheme she's been mandated to  work on? There's a few and they have different regs, MWA linked to above is the most likely, but if she's not on Universal Credit the regs might be different (my knowledge isn't up to date enough to know without looking).
How many hours does that 6 days add up to?


----------



## superfly101 (Apr 18, 2015)

Here's the discussion on Rightnet about Carers and WRA/WFIs http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/7803/


----------



## superfly101 (Apr 18, 2015)

Also stolen from Rightnet just a moment ago 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/fran-bennett/our-lives-poverty-then-and-now-in-uk



> *Our Lives: Poverty then and now in the UK*
> FRAN BENNETT 17 April 2015
> A report launched today, _Our Lives: Challenging attitudes to poverty in 2015_, captures the humanity of the experience of poverty and calls for change as radical as the social reform in the 1940s.


----------



## treelover (Apr 23, 2015)

On Tuesday, the Tories refused to appear on what was for the BBC, a balanced discussion on benefits, etc on NewsNight. It featured a package about a guy who has worked all his life yet after being sanctioned is 'living' in what is basically a derelict flat. Will Hutton was visibly shaking with anger as he took the right wing commentator, Fraser Nelson, to task for his delusional support(he considers them beneficial!) for the changes. The right wing media and to an extent the broadcast media(including the BBC) has abdicated any responsibility for showing and recording the baleful effects of the welfare reforms and especially the considerable number of suicides that have occurred as a direct consequence of them.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 23, 2015)

Didn't see it.. but on that note, there's another load of incredible sanctions in this evidence put to Parliament by the Trussell Trust http://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...y-beyond-the-oakley-review/written/16465.html



> 1.4 Evidence from Trussell Trust foodbanks: Case studies
> 
> 
> Trussell Trust foodbanks consistently report that more people are coming to them as a result of sanctioning, and that many of these sanctions appear to be unfair. We asked foodbanks to provide specific examples of this, a selection of which are listed here (see survey for more):
> ...



More in there too about general reasons rather than specific cases. Sparkhill is my local foodbank, and I have helped people sanctioned at sparkbrook JCP for shit like this, the place is so bad, by far and away the most common place for someone to come from when sanctioned.


----------



## treelover (Apr 27, 2015)

> UK attitudes towards poverty are as bad as the 1940s
> 
> Our study shows the poor are being demonised and welfare support dismantled. We need politicians to be brave and shape policies to create a kinder, more equal society
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk



While the Condems turbo charged the attacks, it was New Labour who created the mood.


----------



## belboid (Apr 30, 2015)

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...anifesto-why-are-disabled-people-afterthought

Decent piece by a colleague of mine on Labours disability mini-manifesto


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...anifesto-why-are-disabled-people-afterthought
> 
> Decent piece by a colleague of mine on Labours disability mini-manifesto



It *is* decent, and representative of the views of disabled people I know. 
The whole "support into work" _schtick_ the author mentions has already been proven to be a big pot of _scheisse_ under Labour, though (mostly Purnell's doing), so I have little hope that we'll see much more than what Labour offered back then, or the coalition have offered since - crappy make-work programs where you learn how to stack shelves, and the like.


----------



## equationgirl (May 10, 2015)

BigTom said:


> Didn't see it.. but on that note, there's another load of incredible sanctions in this evidence put to Parliament by the Trussell Trust http://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...y-beyond-the-oakley-review/written/16465.html
> 
> 
> 
> More in there too about general reasons rather than specific cases. Sparkhill is my local foodbank, and I have helped people sanctioned at sparkbrook JCP for shit like this, the place is so bad, by far and away the most common place for someone to come from when sanctioned.


Renfrewshire is one of the food banks near me, I take food in as often as I can. It's heartbreaking that so many people are being sanctioned for stupid reasons that even a few years ago staff had discretion over. It's so depressing that there could be another five years of this shit.


----------



## BigTom (May 10, 2015)

Definitely will be another five years of this shit (would be under Labour too). I'm getting too far away from the benefits system to be use as advocate/advisor for the claimant's union, so thinking I'll start volunteering at my local foodbank.


----------



## BigTom (May 16, 2015)

one in five of claimant's deaths investigated by DWP linked to sanctions

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.co...related-deaths-involved-sanctions-admits-dwp/

Somewhat weak but only because they won't release full details of the 49 deaths they've secretly investigated, so we only know that 10 of them had been sanctioned at some point, but don't know if they died/killed themselves at the time or how deeply the sanction was connected to their death. Still pretty damning and another piece of evidence for IDS and rw idealogues to ignore.


----------



## Red Cat (May 16, 2015)

BigTom said:


> Definitely will be another five years of this shit (would be under Labour too). I'm getting too far away from the benefits system to be use as advocate/advisor for the claimant's union, so thinking I'll start volunteering at my local foodbank.



Yeh me too, although I have a job and am training and have 2 kids so I'm not sure if it's possible for me.

I hate not being politically active. Is there anything else you do BigTom ? Blagsta and I went to predictably small depressing lefty meeting in town just after the election, think it was left unity, out of desperation.


----------



## BigTom (May 16, 2015)

Red Cat said:


> Yeh me too, although I have a job and am training and have 2 kids so I'm not sure if it's possible for me.
> 
> I hate not being politically active. Is there anything else you do BigTom ? Blagsta and I went to predictably small depressing lefty meeting in town just after the election, think it was left unity, out of desperation.


Not really, Birmingham claimants union, iww rep (but not active in the branch), I've never cancelled my unite community union membership so I can still contribute financially to that.
Edit: I had fun with the local activist stuff but I'm not involved anymore, same reasons I dropped out of it after anti globalisation / Iraq war stuff, just got depressing and wanted to do more practical stuff


----------



## treelover (May 16, 2015)

BigTom said:


> Definitely will be another five years of this shit (would be under Labour too). I'm getting too far away from the benefits system to be use as advocate/advisor for the claimant's union, so thinking I'll start volunteering at my local foodbank.




You seem a smashing guy, Tom.


----------



## BigTom (May 16, 2015)

treelover said:


> You seem a smashing guy, Tom.


Cheers, I'm not doing anything much really though, just a bit of time where I feel it's needed. Can't deal with the idea of people being left on their own to struggle through this period of history.


----------



## superfly101 (May 16, 2015)

Not sure where to put this but this is very important!

Single mental/physical/general health condition Council refusing you help before or after you are made homeless? Judge say bollox!

http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2015/05/vulnerability-a-fresh-start/



> *Comments*
> 
> This will take some time to consider and work through.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (May 16, 2015)

> Video: Coventry cancer sufferer left 'wishing he was already dead' after red tape nightmare of benefits system
> 
> http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/newsletters/daily-bulletin/


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2015)

Interesting things seem to happening at the austerity protests, disabled and sick people, claimants, and the unemployed, are actually being given a prominent voice and getting a lot of support from the very large and diverse crowds(about 16.50 in)


----------



## treelover (Jun 10, 2015)

> Lee Irving’s murder is a chilling reminder that disability hate crime is rising
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...urder-disability-hate-crime-increase#comments





> What would be your explanation for the explosion (I make no apologies for using this word - the increase is staggering) in disability hate crime since 2010? I have been challenged and abused on at least 10 separate occasions now since 2011 for daring to have a blue badge, park in a disabled bay, and suffer from an invisible illness (multiple sclerosis). Incidents prior to 2011? Not one single solitary incident. The abuse consisted of calling me things like "scrounger", "sponger", "fake", "fraud", "skiver". What does this suggest to you in light of government rhetoric and inability to recognise disability beyond missing limbs, crutches and wheelchairs.
> 
> Perhaps it is you that needs to look at your oh-so-typical of the Right disingenuous nonsense. It really isn't helpful.






the rise of hate crimes coincide with the increase in 'benefit porn' shows, the rise in govt announcements about, something for nothing' scroungers' fraudsters', etc, this post on CIF makes it explicit along with the above its horrendous.

where is the 'UAF' or similar for such victims?

having said that, it was New Labour including Blunkett who first led the attacks on disabled claimants.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 11, 2015)

*Don't treat unemployment as a mental problem - report*


> Unemployment is being "rebranded" by the government as a psychological disorder, a new study claims.
> 
> Those that do not exhibit a "positive" outlook must undergo "reprogramming" or face having their benefits cut, says the Wellcome Trust-backed report.
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33060794


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 11, 2015)

June 8, 2015 1.26pm BST
* Facing psychological coercion and manipulation has become a daily part of claiming benefits *
http://theconversation.com/facing-p...ecome-a-daily-part-of-claiming-benefits-42839


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 11, 2015)

*Positive affect as coercive strategy: conditionality, activation and the role of psychology in UK government workfare programmes*
http://mh.bmj.com/content/41/1/40.full


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 11, 2015)

pathologising poverty


----------



## BigTom (Jun 11, 2015)

of course, all fits in with the neo-liberal / liberal idea that unemployment is a failing of the individual, not a failing of capitalism (obv in capital's terms it's not a failing, but from our perspective / the view of unemployment as a failing, it is).
They should just put all this into the NHS mental health services, which would go towards tackling the mental health problems, and focus unemployment policy on the economic and structural factors... as far as the individual goes, it should be directed by the person in question and have access to proper training courses with funding directed by studies showing where there are skills shortages / planning for future government infrastructure projects. But then that might actually help tackle unemployment which wouldn't be useful when you're trying to drive wages/conditions down as far as possible.


----------



## getsleep (Jun 11, 2015)

I think u summed it up quite perfectly well - thats all the mess and circles around, but u really think putting it all up in the NHS mental health system would do a favour?


----------



## BigTom (Jun 12, 2015)

getsleep said:


> I think u summed it up quite perfectly well - thats all the mess and circles around, but u really think putting it all up in the NHS mental health system would do a favour?


The nhs mental health system is vastly underfunded and pretty shit, but I think the health service is the right place for mental health service provision to be, definitely not as part of unemployment services anyway. Where would you see provision of mh services best placed?


----------



## treelover (Jun 12, 2015)

The Peoples Assembly mass event against Austerity In London hardly mentions,benefits, poverty, Rees and German showing their 'workerist' bias, again.

yes, many workers are in poverty, etc,


----------



## J Ed (Jun 12, 2015)

Rutita1 said:


> *Positive affect as coercive strategy: conditionality, activation and the role of psychology in UK government workfare programmes*
> http://mh.bmj.com/content/41/1/40.full


 
Everyone should read this.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 18, 2015)

I came across this today.   Apparently, while an increasing number or people are being sanctioned, and people have to wait longer for their benfit claims to be processed, NI has a surplus (which can only be spent on the NHS or paying benefits).  
http://www.welfareweekly.com/opinio...surance-surplus-kick-teeth-starving-families/


----------



## ffsear (Jun 20, 2015)

good timing 

http://news.sky.com/story/1505715/tory-governments-12bn-welfare-cuts-agreed


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2015)

> Disability protesters try to storm into House of Commons chamber during ‪#‎PMQs‬
> Latest: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-33241248


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 24, 2015)

Deserves a thread of it's own imo. Doffs cap to DPAC! The left in the UK needs to wake the fuck up!


----------



## treelover (Jun 24, 2015)

> Figures detailing benefit-related deaths to be published, says David Cameron
> 
> Prime minister’s disclosure, in wake of 200,000-strong petition, comes two days after Iain Duncan Smith’s claim in parliament that such data did not exist





> Raising a point of order after prime minister’s questions, Abrahams asked the Speaker John Bercow why Duncan Smith had claimed that the figures didn’t exist, contradicting what the prime minister had said and the information his own department supplied to the information commissioner.
> 
> “I’d be grateful for your guidance on how to correct the record and seek an explanation for this error. Frankly this happens too much and puts this House into disrepute,” she said.
> 
> ...



How does Smith survive?

btw, petition of 200'000, pretty impressive.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 24, 2015)

treelover said:


> How does Smith survive?



It's pretty simple. He's a believer  in neo-Victorian social policy, which marries up to what the Tories want, and he's incredibly popular with the Tory rank-and-file. Cut Dunked-in Shit loose, and Cameron *knows* that come conference the backwoodsmen and the membership will make life very difficult for the leadership.   


> btw, petition of 200'000, pretty impressive.


Over 225,000.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 24, 2015)

treelover said:


> How does Smith survive?



He won't, trust me on that.


----------



## 8115 (Jun 24, 2015)

He survives cos even among the Tories, there's a limited appetite for the dirty work. He, on the other hand, pretty much seems to thrive on it.

They're kind of like a reverse Incredibles. Duncan Smith, superpower complete absense of moral compass. Hunt, can total a department in a matter of months. May, every single word she says sounds like a lie.


----------



## zxspectrum (Jun 25, 2015)

Libertad said:


> He won't, trust me on that.


He'll survive very easily.

He lives in a massive mansion with the support of a huge number of people; despite not even bothering to turn up to hustings or living in the constituency he won comfortably. He's in no danger at all. Class War were no threat to him. Most of the constituency probably looked at them and thought they were ridiculous (regardless of how fair that is). 

This is modern Britain. He has power; he gets vast sums in land subsidies, for land his in laws stole in the past. He's part of the ruling elite and has a life as comfortable as one can get. 

Short of a dirty bomb I don't see anything unseating him. He was a joke as leader and despite being a figure of utter ridicule back then is at the forefront of a vicious assault on the society he now rules over. He cares not one jot for the sick or the unemployed and responds to any criticism with a bullying barrage of pure arrogance.

So I'm afraid he's not going anywhere. Unfortunately.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 25, 2015)

8115 said:


> He survives cos even among the Tories, there's a limited appetite for the dirty work. He, on the other hand, pretty much seems to thrive on it.
> 
> They're kind of like a reverse Incredibles. Duncan Smith, superpower complete absense of moral compass. Hunt, can total a department in a matter of months. May, every single word she says sounds like a lie.



Dunked-in Shit is worse than you assume. The goblin-faced fuckwad actually possesses a moral compass (he's an avid churchgoer and believer in "Christian virtues"), but it's skewed 180 degrees out of true. He thrives on the shit because the deluded crap-bag thinks that he's "doing G-d's work".


----------



## zxspectrum (Jun 25, 2015)

Those aren't skewed values; those are how Christianity is meant to function. That's why people like him have power. It's the whole rational behind the 'work ethic'. Keep your head down, slave your guts out, your reward is coming...kingdom of god.

Combined with Britain's ridiculous neofuedal system our political system is a toxic nightmare.

I'd love to see Duncan Smith get his just desserts, but it won't be happening any time soon, and certainly not because a few thousand people walk around Parliament square.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The goblin-faced fuckwad



 *makes note*


----------



## treelover (Jun 25, 2015)

> Skivers and strivers: this 200–year–old myth won’t die
> 
> George Monbiot
> 
> ...




Major article by Monbiot on the demonisation of the unemployed, disabled, etc.


----------



## treelover (Jun 25, 2015)

> The commission was a fraud. It began with fixed conclusions and sought evidence to support them. Its interviews were conducted with like-minded members of the propertied classes, who were helped towards the right replies with leading questions. Anecdote took the place of data.



Monbiot on the 1834 Poor Law Act Amendment, he could be talking about Freud's 12 weeks work on developing welfare reforms under New Labour.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 27, 2015)

Not wishing to break the law or incite, obviously, but if a "propaganda of the deed" assassination of IDS was carried out I think it would be very popular.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Not wishing to break the law or incite, obviously, but if a "propaganda of the deed" assassination of IDS was carried out I think it would be very popular.


as long as someone else does it, i see.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 27, 2015)

Likely to remain hypothetical, and would probably be anonymous. If a person or small cell did such a thing, that would be 70 million people for who it would be someone else.

ETA: Thing is, I sense people are really confounded at what to do about the sociopathic social darwinism that appears to have secured another half decade with which to drive countless people to suicidal despair. 

I increasingly say that it's not much good us dissing one anothers positions and analysis on what to do or how to do it, because if any of us were that correct we almost certainly wouldnt be where we are.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Not wishing to break the law or incite, obviously, but if a "propaganda of the deed" assassination of IDS was carried out I think it would be very popular.



However popular it might be, it'd provide May and her zombie cohorts with exactly the sort of excuse they want to push through all sorts of oppressive legislation.
As usual, discretion is the better part of valour.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> as long as someone else does it, i see.


Myself and quite a few other disabled people have said that if issued a medical "death sentence" we'd attempt something on those lines, but only because as disabled people such an act couldn't be spun as anything other than what it actually was, whereas an assassination by an able-bodied random could be parlayed up into fuck knows what.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Myself and quite a few other disabled people have said that if issued a medical "death sentence" we'd attempt something on those lines, but only because as disabled people such an act couldn't be spun as anything other than what it actually was, whereas an assassination by an able-bodied random could be parlayed up into fuck knows what.


i want to see taffboy put his money where his mouth is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i want to see taffboy put his money where his mouth is.



So, basically with a wad of fivers stuff up his arse?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 29, 2015)

Some peoples fave soap actors could be in this vid about the end of Independent Living Fund.

Please share widely on social media, as it may just reach folk that general ranting doesn't.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=174&v=6P-z10pKGdc


----------



## zxspectrum (Jun 29, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Some peoples fave soap actors could be in this vid about the end of Independent Living Fund.
> 
> Please share widely on social media, as it may just reach folk that general ranting doesn't.
> 
> ...


done


----------



## ddraig (Jun 29, 2015)

link from start of vid


----------



## Contrarian (Jun 29, 2015)

*'No children, no dogs, no DSS': The demonisation of benefit claimants is helping fuel homelessness, and it's about to get even worse*

*Being evicted from a private rented home is now the main cause of homelessness. And with £12 billion of welfare cuts on the horizon – and housing benefit first in line for the chop – it’s set to get even tougher for renters on low incomes. Who will help them? Certainly not Britain's landlords.*

*A cursory glance in a few letting agents’ windows reveals "no DSS" signs readily displayed alongside bans on children and pets. DSS stands for the Department for Social Security – an extinct part of the government responsible for benefits, now known as the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP).*

*The signs are designed to keep people on housing benefit away, and the fact that they’re exhibited so casually is shocking. But it's also symptomatic of the private housing market as a whole, which thrives on the discrimination and demonisation of society's most vulnerable people.*

*Landlords and letting agents already pick and choose who to let to. Throw benefit cuts into the mix, along with a shortage of housing and a ballooning number of renters, and you have a nasty problem: a huge volume of people who need to rent privately, but have nowhere to go.*

*Research by the housing charity Shelter found that over two thirds of private landlords would prefer not to rent to tenants on housing benefit, with many concerned that benefit cuts mean they wouldn’t be able to pay the rent.*

*Lettings agents are also cashing in on the growing unease that people on benefits just won’t be able to pay the rent. One agency advert (pictured below) promises landlords that they will vet tenants to “ensure that they are suitable for your property both financially and personally.” Their ad includes a photo of a man in a cardboard box; presumably mocking rough sleepers.*

*




*

*Another local agency flyer I've come across celebrates the fact that the cost of renting is greater than average wages – and offers to help landlords squeeze more rent out of their tenants. “Did you know that the average asking rent for property like yours in East London has gone up to £1987pcm?" it says. "That’s MORE than the average London monthly salary.”*

*http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/no-children-no-dogs-no-dss-the-demonisation-of-benefit-claimants-is-helping-fuel-homelessness-and-its-about-to-get-even-worse-10342805.html*


----------



## Libertad (Jun 29, 2015)

*



			Why not pop in and see us, or let us know you’re thinking about us on Social Media?
		
Click to expand...

*http://matthew-anthony.co.uk/contact-us/

I just have you bloodsucking rentier shysters.
Why not take them up on their kind offer?

https://twitter.com/MA_EstateAgency


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 29, 2015)

Libertad said:


> http://matthew-anthony.co.uk/contact-us/
> 
> I just have you bloodsucking rentier shysters.
> Why not take them up on their kind offer?
> ...



Just informed them about the evolutionary link between faecal bacteria and letting agents - both wallow in shit with no thought except for themselves.


----------



## treelover (Jul 2, 2015)

local fora is saying housing benefit is to be cut by 10%?, anyone else heard anything, VP's notion of rookeries coming back looks very likely.

update, also end of non support group ESA, so the pittance of JSA is all disabled/sick/mentally ill will get, despite extra expenditure.


----------



## belboid (Jul 2, 2015)

treelover said:


> local fora is saying housing benefit is to be cut by 10%?, anyone else heard anything,


it's an Institute of Fiscal Studies prediction


----------



## treelover (Jul 2, 2015)

Do you mean they are predicting it will be in the budget?


----------



## belboid (Jul 2, 2015)

"Cuts of this scale [£12billion] amount to almost 10% of unprotected benefits. Finding such a reduction without cutting child benefit, which has been pledged this week, would mean that even more significant cuts would likely be required to spending on one or more of tax credits, housing benefit and disability & incapacity benefits."

And that's required over the next two years, so probably in this budget


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2015)

belboid said:


> "Cuts of this scale [£12billion] amount to almost 10% of unprotected benefits. Finding such a reduction without cutting child benefit, which has been pledged this week, would mean that even more significant cuts would likely be required to spending on one or more of tax credits, housing benefit and disability & incapacity benefits."
> 
> And that's required over the next two years, so probably in this budget



And will have a likely (and quite possibly an anticipated) effect on those in social housing, akin to the "bedroom tax", so more evictions.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 3, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> And will have a likely (and quite possibly an anticipated) effect on those in social housing, akin to the "bedroom tax", so more evictions.



Be easier for them to reduce the Local Housing Allowance payments level, which'll only affect private rentals, than to increase the bedroom tax I think - social housing HB rates are capped at the same level as the LHA aren't they? But because social housing is so much cheaper, nobody was affected by it so they brought in the bedroom tax to fuck over people in social housing as well.


----------



## treelover (Jul 3, 2015)

> The biggest raid on benefits you’ve never heard of Juliette Jowit
> Thought the £12bn welfare cuts were a big deal? Try the £40bn the government saved itself with a sleight of hand over inflation
> 
> The anticipated £12bn in welfare cuts in next week’s budget will be dwarfed by the results of an apparently technical change to financial policy.’ Photograph: Bimal Sharma/Demotix/Corbis
> ...



fucking hell, its much worse that even we thought on here,


----------



## 8115 (Jul 3, 2015)

treelover said:


> Do you mean they are predicting it will be in the budget?


I think it's a mixture of what people fear and also possibly the government softening us up with dire leaks, so that we roll over and shrug at anything less than armageddon. That's what I'm hoping.


----------



## superfly101 (Jul 3, 2015)

The Low Commission  Report http://www.lowcommission.org.uk/News/Advice-and-Health

http://www.lowcommission.org.uk/dyn/1435582011755/ASA-report_Web.pdf



> A key strand of our work has been to look at the relationship between advice needs and services, and health. The most forward looking advice services have always developed good relationships with local health service providers in both primary (GP) and secondary (Hospital) care - CAB outreaches in GP surgery centres, for example, have been a common and successful model. But the linkage between social welfare advice improving health outcomes within the context of the "social determinants" (reference - the Marmot Report) of ill-health has not been widely mainstreamed amongst policy makers and commissioners.
> 
> We are therefore publishing a research review which we have worked on and commissioned jointly with the Advice Services Alliance, and guided by a group of experts from health and advice charities chaired by Amanda Finlay. The research was undertaken by Consilium and the foreword provided by Michael Marmot who is joining Lord Low on Monday June 29th to launch the report in Parliament.


----------



## treelover (Jul 14, 2015)

> *Ministers are also understood to be considering changes to the support group category of the Employment and Support Allowance, with a possible announcement in the 8 July Budget.*
> 
> *http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33347511*



This was in the pre-budget leaks to the BBC, it will probably come out in the Autumn, maybe Tory Conference, sickening


----------



## zxspectrum (Jul 15, 2015)

treelover said:


> This was in the pre-budget leaks to the BBC, it will probably come out in the Autumn, maybe Tory Conference, sickening


I've thought about emailing my mp over this issue, buy to be honest I really don't think he'll change his mind, being a Tory. The response will be the usual hand wringing and superficial polite sympathy.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 15, 2015)

zxspectrum said:


> I've thought about emailing my mp over this issue, buy to be honest I really don't think he'll change his mind, being a Tory. <snip>


Email (and preferably snailmail too) him anyway.  Yes, you can expect platitudes or no reply at all, but as least you can make him aware that you don't agree with what's going on.


----------



## rhod (Jul 18, 2015)

Please share and end this man's poverty and torment NOW!! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tobias-Ellwood-Austerity-Relief-Fund/886733984729146


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 21, 2015)

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/...nefits-cap-for-what-it-is-economic-cleansing/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 22, 2015)

*Housing: Why Earning £6.50 an Hour isn’t an Option in London*
Posted on Jul 22nd, 2015 in Street News // Comments »
Tags: Housing London, London, Minimum Wage, Rent, UK Housing

*You’ll struggle to get a roof over your head on the minimum wage. Here is what you really need to earn to be able to afford a one-bed rental in the Capital*We’ve mapped the _real_ minimum hourly wage needed to be able to get a one-bed rental in all 120 London postcodes. The results are sobering – there is only one postcode where a minimum wage earner, working full time on £6.50 an hour, can afford a place of their own: Abbey Wood, a South East London suburb in Zone 4.

 

http://streetskitchen.co.uk/?p=2580


----------



## treelover (Jul 26, 2015)

8 programmes last week on TV, not including repeats.

including, not making this up, 'Dogs on the dole', so this is what our highly educated workforce is doing.


----------



## treelover (Jul 27, 2015)

Some great new images appearing.


----------



## treelover (Jul 27, 2015)

> Merseyside MP renews pressure to reveal death toll after “fit for work” tests
> 
> http://linkis.com/voxpoliticalonline.com/OPjd2



Liverpool MP Marie Rimmer has created an early day motion to get the DWP/Govt to reveal the figures, along with the petition, this will put real pressure on the Govt

but this is no ordinary govt and no ordinary times, people are dying and most of the country is unaware.


----------



## treelover (Aug 6, 2015)

> *One in six jobseekers have allowance stopped by DWP each year *
> Guardian research contradicts government claims that only a small minority of jobseekers have been affected by increasingly severe welfare policies
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/aug/05/jobseekers-dole-guardian-research-government-welfare



Shocking, should be number one priority for Corbyn campaign, etc.


----------



## 8115 (Aug 16, 2015)

Good program on the iplayer called "Disabled in an instant" that looks at this issue sideways, but meeting young people who've been disabled and looking at some of the problems they have with the system.  One thing that shows up is where you cut essential services, the cost is just paid by another service, such as people staying in hospital longer.  Good program.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b064jj14/disabled-in-an-instant#group=p02q33dg


----------



## stethoscope (Aug 18, 2015)

Cunts 

DWP admits making up quotes by 'benefit claimants' saying sanctions helped them
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ts-saying-sanctions-helped-them-10460351.html


----------



## StoneRoad (Aug 18, 2015)

But, sadly, quite typical of the vermin ...


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 18, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Cunts
> 
> DWP admits making up quotes by 'benefit claimants' saying sanctions helped them
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ts-saying-sanctions-helped-them-10460351.html



#fakeDWPstories is trending nicely on Twitter today. I've been having big fun with it.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 24, 2015)

DWP to quietly publish benefited-related death stats before Bank Holiday weekend


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 24, 2015)

I don't think this Daily Mirror columnist likes IDS very much:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disabled-dont-count-youre-iain-6311127


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 24, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> I don't think this Daily Mirror columnist likes IDS very much:
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disabled-dont-count-youre-iain-6311127



And it's *all of it* "fair comment" - conclusions one could naturally reach after reading his policies and their effects.
You can bet he's already had his Civil Servants write to _The Mirror_ demanding an apology for the calumny.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 25, 2015)

Essential information for ESA claims, assessments and appeals (as spotted by another urbanite who isn't currently very active here but thought we'd find it useful)

https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/1560/


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 27, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Essential information for ESA claims, assessments and appeals (as spotted by another urbanite who isn't currently very active here but thought we'd find it useful)
> 
> https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/1560/


 that is a really useful link, very clear and concise.
I like the image they use


----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2015)

> *Publish the statistics showing how many people have died after their benefits were stopped*
> 
> *Victory!*
> 
> ...




Looks like Change .org can work sometimes, 250,000 people signed the petition(including Urbs) Maggie was excellent and persistent as well.


----------



## treelover (Sep 4, 2015)

With the growth in support of the refugee crisis, its now plain that media coverage played a very important part in raising public awareness and spurring people on 'to do something', this thread is now many years old but looking at the UK, apart from DPAC and some activities with Unite Community and plenty of petitions, not that much has been done. The People's Assembly has seen another bandwagon and has called for a day of action for refugees, but in its history it has never done anything about the loss of life from sanctions, benefit refusals, etc, which is now well documented. Such high profile events do raise awareness, etc, so one has to ask why?, we know Rees and German have a poor record on poverty issues since their days in the SWP,much preferring identity and anti-imperialism politics, but this is also a crisis, something must be done.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2015)

treelover said:


> With the growth in support of the refugee crisis,


let me just stop you there, as no one is actually supporting the refugee crisis: no one thinks it is a good thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2015)

treelover said:


> this is also a crisis, something must be done.


oh dear.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 4, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> let me just stop you there, as no one is actually supporting the refugee crisis: no one thinks it is a good thing.



I'm pretty sure treelover is talking about growing public support for refugees rather than the crisis itself. But I see that you get some kind of fulfilment from antagonistically nitpicking his posts, so who am I to spoil the sport of others?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2015)

NoXion said:


> I'm pretty sure treelover is talking about growing public support for refugees rather than the crisis itself. But I see that you get some kind of fulfilment from antagonistically nitpicking his posts, so who am I to spoil the sport of others?


someone who likes making evidence-free assumptions from the looks of things. but if that's what rocks your boat, carry on say i.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 4, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> someone who likes making evidence-free assumptions from the looks of things. but if that's what rocks your boat, carry on say i.



So go on then, do you really think that treelover was talking about a growth in support for the crisis itself?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2015)

NoXion said:


> So go on then, do you really think that treelover was talking about a growth in support for the crisis itself?


tbh it is difficult to tell what treelover means. consider the bit after:





> its now plain that media coverage played a very important part in raising public awareness and spurring people on 'to do something',


the media coverage has for a long time _not_ spurred people on to "do something". for months on end we've been told about horrendous deaths, of far more than two children, without the moral imperative which seems to have come from the sad deaths of the two brothers and their mother. the media has in fact largely fed us on stories of hordes of immigrants coming to swamp us, to use cameron's charming term. so imo the most that can be said for treelover is his meaning is indeterminate, as for months on end the stories have played into the hands of ukip, the tories and other right-wing elements. what he _says_ is 'growth in support of the refugee crisis'. what he _means _... well, you're no more certain than i.

however, the evidence free assumption i was referring to was my getting some kind of fulfilmen from antagonistically nitpicking his posts.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 7, 2015)

Some good news... 



> A group of student lawyers in Bristol has overturned 95% of decisions made by the Department of Work and Pensions in relation to 200 people it deemed "fit for work".
> 
> The volunteers at the Bristol and Avon Law Centre have won £1m in compensation over the past two years after representing claimants who challenged the DWP's assertion they were able to work. The students, from the University of the West of England, represented their clients at benefit appeals in front of a judge and doctor.
> 
> Their 95% success rate is significantly higher than the national rate - which is 59%.



A Group Of Student Lawyers Has Overturned 95% Of DWP Decisions Against 200 People Declared 'Fit For Work'


----------



## treelover (Sep 7, 2015)

WE SHALL OVERCOME!

A weekend with hundreds of gigs across the UK to help those suffering under austerity. The event will take place from October 2nd-4th. Join us!



Another really positive iniative keep them coming, not sure who is doing it , but great.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 8, 2015)

treelover said:


> WE SHALL OVERCOME!
> 
> A weekend with hundreds of gigs across the UK to help those suffering under austerity. The event will take place from October 2nd-4th. Join us!
> 
> ...


The graphics look as though they've been borrowed from the ANL. Not a bad thing, imv.


----------



## Evander (Sep 12, 2015)

How hollow it seems now, when the only ones who aren't in it are the political classes; how much was the latest parliamentary pay rise - 10 percent? The same old story - pigs at the trough. Oink-oink.


----------



## superfly101 (Sep 21, 2015)

*Depressed man killed himself as a direct result of DWP's ‘fit to work’ ruling, coroner finds*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...it-to-work-ruling-coroner-finds-10510305.html



> A coroner has concluded for the first time that a man with severe mental illness killed himself as a direct result of being found “fit to work” by the Government’s outsourced disability assessors.
> 
> Michael O’Sullivan, a 60-year-old father from north London, hanged himself after his disability benefits were removed despite the opinion of three doctors that he was suffering from recurrent depression and certified as unable to work by his GP.
> 
> Figures released last month by the Department for Work and Pensions showed that nearly 90 people died every month between 2011 and 2014 after they had been declared fit for employment after undergoing a work capability assessment (WCA).


----------



## Fingers (Sep 30, 2015)

This woman had her benefits cut for her disabled son due to the fact that the HMRC cunts thought she was having a relationship with her local corner shop (yes shop, not shop owner)

Woman's benefits stopped because HMRC thinks local shop is her boyfriend


----------



## treelover (Oct 22, 2015)

> * 'Fitness to work' assessments are brutal, says daughter of man who killed himself *
> Family of Michael O’Sullivan, who killed himself after losing his incapacity benefit, say Work Capability Assessment process is broken and unsafe
> 
> 'Fitness to work' assessments are brutal, says daughter of man who killed himself


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 24, 2015)

Please share this powerful short video about the cut to working tax credits.


----------



## superfly101 (Oct 30, 2015)

*CPAG Safeguarding guidance: a tool for practitioners*

Safeguarding guidance: a tool for practitioners | Child Poverty Action Group

The welfare rights guidance for safe guarding vulnerable people by the DWP for the DWP!


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 2, 2015)

How many cancer sufferers does it take to change a lightbulb?

It depends, but if they can swan around changing lightbulbs then it's about time any benefits were slashed and they were harried into work. It's time for the sloth to end. Tax cuts for millionaires don't pay for themselves.


----------



## hipipol (Nov 18, 2015)

"I met Murder on the way He had a mask like *Cameron*   Very smooth he looked, yet grim; Seven blood-hounds followed him"
PB Shelley


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 19, 2015)

hipipol said:


> "I met Murder on the way He had a mask like *Cameron*   Very smooth he looked, yet grim; Seven blood-hounds followed him"
> PB Shelley



To abuse the words of Byron,"Posterity will ne'er look on, A nobler grave than this: Here lie the bones of Cameron: Stop, traveller, and piss".


----------



## tony.c (Nov 24, 2015)

‘Fit for work’ tests have normalised the suffering of sick and disabled people | Frances Ryan


----------



## chainsawjob (Nov 27, 2015)

'More suicides' in government disability test areas - BBC News

Research finds more deaths from suicide, increased mental health problems and more antidepressant prescribing in areas where more WCAs are carried out. Government rubbishes findings.


----------



## mufasasmolasses (Nov 27, 2015)

I've registered here so I can post this:



A tory voter in tears over tax credit cuts. Karma?


----------



## NoXion (Nov 27, 2015)

What did she expect? Did she honestly buy into that nonsense the Tories constantly vomit out about "hard-working families"? Did she really fail to realise that a bunch of cunts willing to put the boot into the most vulnerable in society wouldn't have any qualms whatsoever about putting the likes of her in their sights as as well?


----------



## mufasasmolasses (Nov 28, 2015)

I think she expected that the cuts would only affect foreign single mothers. Oh snap!


----------



## Sh4nD (Nov 30, 2015)

Love the way Cameron and his cronies still stay rich while in the process get richer while im struggling to get a decent meal for the week. Cant fucking cope at the best of times and the cunt decides to make it harder still. As long as he has a decent life from slashing what the people need.


----------



## treelover (Dec 19, 2015)

Apparently, this was Rhyll Job Centre yesterday.


----------



## treelover (Jan 3, 2016)

> Benefit Sanctions, File on 4 - BBC Radio 4
> 
> *Benefit Sanctions*
> File on 4
> ...



Posted on FB, radio programme about the dire consequences of Smiths/Tories benefit sanctions programme,

Benefit Sanctions, File on 4 - BBC Radio 4

It really is a disgrace that this is happening in 2015 and that there is so little opposition to it, it is not in Calais though, is it?


----------



## treelover (Jan 3, 2016)

Britons driven to food banks by poverty seen as 'collateral damage' by DWP, says chair of the Trussell Trust.

"Hundreds of thousands of Britons driven to food banks by poverty in the past year are seen as “collateral damage” by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP), according to Chris Mould, chair of the Trussell Trust. 
The Government has spent years in denial of the existence of food poverty and continues to threaten the charity for speaking out on the issue, he said.

... See More



Britain's biggest food bank charity has hit out at the DWP
Hundreds of thousands of Britons driven to food banks by poverty in the past year are seen as “collateral damage” by the Department for Work and Pensions…
independent.co.uk


----------



## treelover (Jan 6, 2016)

> The DWP is cruelty in action.
> 
> One one forum for disabled claimants which I frequent, one person mentioned in Dec that she had not received a £10 Christmas bonus, traditionally paid to claimants. She was too scared to ring to query it, as the call would cost, and she would be "putting her head above the parapet" ie, drawing attention to herself, and she was too scared to do so. Many many others then commented that the same thing had happened to them, but they were likewise too scared to query the lack of payment too. Goodness knows how much the DWP saved, if it was deliberate, or a mistake. The thought of intelligent, responsible individuals who have contributed to the National Insurance system throughout their lifetimes being too scared to contact a government department to query an entitlement, is appalling.



Posted on CIF, 
this not "putting their head above the parapet" fear is quite common: I am aware of a lady who would not claim the winter fuel discount from her energy company as it entailed getting in touch with the DWP.

Where is the opposition to all this, where is the Labour Party?


----------



## treelover (Jan 14, 2016)

Iain Duncan Smith just fled a Job Centre to keep his warped worldview intact | The Canary


----------



## treelover (Jan 22, 2016)

is this the Treelover show?

Anyway, Smith is about to force even people in the Support Group(who are very sick and disabled indeed) to do ten hours work, voluntary activity, so of course, more sanctions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2016)

#


----------



## treelover (Jan 22, 2016)

WTF is that?, can't you just post something about the obscenity of the sick and disabled are being treated, or better still do something about it, it doesn't seem a priority for many and there is nothing smug in saying it.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 27, 2016)

Yesssss

Bedroom Tax declared 'unlawful' by the Court of Appeal

E2a the government are of course going to appeal the decision. It really pisses me off how they get to waste vast sums of our money appealing against decisions such as these.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Yesssss
> 
> Bedroom Tax declared 'unlawful' by the Court of Appeal
> 
> E2a the government are of course going to appeal the decision. It really pisses me off how they get to waste vast sums of our money appealing against decisions such as these.



Yep. It'll probably end up going before the Supreme Court/"law lords" before the govt give in, and even then, they're probably already working on how to re-word things so that they can carry on metaphorically arse-raping the poor and the disabled.


----------



## geminisnake (Jan 31, 2016)

Are people aware of this? Sorry it's facebook but that's where I saw it


----------



## chainsawjob (Feb 1, 2016)

DWP defeated in Lords over ESA cuts

Back to the Commons then. What a state of affairs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 1, 2016)

geminisnake said:


> Are people aware of this? Sorry it's facebook but that's where I saw it




DWP tried last year to integrate the JobCentrePlus on Streatham Hill with local mental health services. Cue massive protests about putting people with mental health issues in a situation where they may have to walk past some of the people who've exacerbated their mental health issues.
This whole idea is poorly thought-out. Surgeries aren't equipped with the sort of personnel required - and decent personnel rather than knobbers are expensive - and people shouldn't be forced to associate attendance at a surgery with state "welfare" bureaucracy.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 10, 2016)

Another member of David Cameron's family has joined the campaign against his cuts


----------



## chainsawjob (Feb 10, 2016)

chainsawjob said:


> DWP defeated in Lords over ESA cuts
> 
> Back to the Commons then. What a state of affairs.




The Government may be about to scrap one of its harshest disability benefit cuts


----------



## chainsawjob (Feb 20, 2016)

My god 

Iain Duncan Smith's new benefits helpline is going to cost claimants 45p a minute


----------



## teqniq (Feb 22, 2016)

The same people that did the series about the homeless in Swansea which I started a thread about here have done a new series entitled Battling with benefits. Episode one was last week but can be found on iPlayer, episode two is tonight.


----------



## K D C (Feb 23, 2016)

My friend is on ESA (support group) she has multiple health issues. She got a letter from DWP with the usual, "we want to make sure you are getting the right amount of benefit". They invited her to a compliance interview at which they kept asking for bank statements; she provided building society book. They now keep pestering for more statements and at last meeting on Monday they suspended her benefits as she had not given them the statements they wanted. She was already living on the breadline, rent arrears etc, this will make her life very difficult. Any tips or advice would be good.


----------



## BigTom (Feb 23, 2016)

K D C said:


> My friend is on ESA (support group) she has multiple health issues. She got a letter from DWP with the usual, "we want to make sure you are getting the right amount of benefit". They invited her to a compliance interview at which they kept asking for bank statements; she provided building society book. They now keep pestering for more statements and at last meeting on Monday they suspended her benefits as she had not given them the statements they wanted. She was already living on the breadline, rent arrears etc, this will make her life very difficult. Any tips or advice would be good.



If you have a CAB local to you, see if you can get an appointment there so they can help you appeal the sanction and sort out what the DWP are doing. You may have other support/advice/advocacy services locally to you, if you're happy to say roughly where you live, someone here might be able to help you find local services.

My knowledge is too many years old now and ESA was always a bit rough anyway so don't rely on the next bit, get proper advice, but if she's been sanctioned then her housing benefit shouldn't stop, but it may do because the DWP will tell the council she's not on benefits anymore, and she'll need to put in a zero income claim to get HB back. ESA sanctions are 70% of the benefit iirc, but you say her benefits have been suspended so I don't know if that means they've been sanctioned or stopped eg because of "suspected fraud" or something. Knowing/working all this out is easier with someone you can sit down and talk to tbh, and privately rather than in a public forum where you won't/might not want to reveal much/any personal info.


----------



## anthony243 (Feb 26, 2016)

Blagsta said:


> Nail on head.  As I posted on another thread
> 
> Work is not some magical solution to people's problems. Work is pretty shit for a lot of people. The problem is that people will probably not be encouraged to find work that suits them, work they enjoy and work that isn't going to make their problems worse. In all likelihood, they'll be forced into any job to make the stats look good or they'll be put onto shitty New Deal type courses, where our tax money pays private enterprises to pretend to train people.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 29, 2016)

Dunked In Shite defeated, for the time being!

Cruel Tory welfare cut defeated after this powerful speech by a Paralympic idol


----------



## SaySomething (Mar 3, 2016)

I had an accident in October last year - really embarrassing, but I hit a pot hole in the middle of the road and crashed my son's electric scooter.  (Was showing him how it works )  Anyway - really damaged my knee and still suffer with it now - have only just been able to stop using crutches.  I am still waiting for an MRI scan to determine exactly what is wrong with it as the doctors say ligament damage/ soft tissue etc would basically be healed by now so watch this space!  At the time of my accident,  I worked part time as a classroom assistant but my employer terminated my employment the following month.  (I'd heard from other staff that the reason for my p45 was because I couldn't do much work sitting with a leg propped up on a chair and even that my boss didnt want to pay the sick pay!  Determined not to go back onto JSA I juggled the various doctors and hospital appointments, looked for work, went to interviews, covered Christmas costs and raised my 12 year old as a single mum as best as I could with limited mobility and very strong painkillers that zoned me out!  
Five months on, I'm still constantly limping and unstable on my feet, cant crouch down or kneel and in some degree of manageable pain, but can hobble up to the bus stop if I need to get out and about anywhere including job interviews... which so far have not been successful.  I'm certain it's because of my ongoing medical situation and who would want to take on a new staff member that would need time off for hospital appointments and possibly surgery etc?

 Life goes on and I thought my housing benefit would do the same - but to my utter horror - I received a letter from my housing association saying I had not paid my rent and they are looking to evict me and my son from our home.  I do not know where I stand (pardon the pun) with regard to claiming any sort of disability allowance, whether it could be back dated to cover the rent or who to speak to for help!  Can anyone offer any advice please?  I'm really worried that we'll be forced out and homeless if I cannot come up with the dosh.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 3, 2016)

SaySomething said:


> I had an accident in October last year - really embarrassing, but I hit a pot hole in the middle of the road and crashed my son's electric scooter.  (Was showing him how it works )  Anyway - really damaged my knee and still suffer with it now - have only just been able to stop using crutches.  I am still waiting for an MRI scan to determine exactly what is wrong with it as the doctors say ligament damage/ soft tissue etc would basically be healed by now so watch this space!  At the time of my accident,  I worked part time as a classroom assistant but my employer terminated my employment the following month.  (I'd heard from other staff that the reason for my p45 was because I couldn't do much work sitting with a leg propped up on a chair and even that my boss didnt want to pay the sick pay!  Determined not to go back onto JSA I juggled the various doctors and hospital appointments, looked for work, went to interviews, covered Christmas costs and raised my 12 year old as a single mum as best as I could with limited mobility and very strong painkillers that zoned me out!
> Five months on, I'm still constantly limping and unstable on my feet, cant crouch down or kneel and in some degree of manageable pain, but can hobble up to the bus stop if I need to get out and about anywhere including job interviews... which so far have not been successful.  I'm certain it's because of my ongoing medical situation and who would want to take on a new staff member that would need time off for hospital appointments and possibly surgery etc?
> 
> Life goes on and I thought my housing benefit would do the same - but to my utter horror - I received a letter from my housing association saying I had not paid my rent and they are looking to evict me and my son from our home.  I do not know where I stand (pardon the pun) with regard to claiming any sort of disability allowance, whether it could be back dated to cover the rent or who to speak to for help!  Can anyone offer any advice please?  I'm really worried that we'll be forced out and homeless if I cannot come up with the dosh.



You need to speak to your local council's housing benefit department to find out what happened to that and open a new HB claim. afaik benefits won't be backdated to before you start a claim so you need to find out what happened to your claim previously and why it was stopped and hopefully you'll be able to re-open it and get it backdated fully. I'd guess that when you got your p45, and then didn't claim JSA, the HB dept thought you were no longer eligible to claim at all and stopped your benefits then. Only they will know this though.
YOu can get advice from Shelter or CAB or possibly from your housing association.
afaik no disability benefits will pay for rent specifically. You may be able to claim ESA or PIP but they won't backdate to before you apply for them so get an application in asap.


----------



## SaySomething (Mar 3, 2016)

BigTom said:


> You need to speak to your local council's housing benefit department to find out what happened to that and open a new HB claim. afaik benefits won't be backdated to before you start a claim so you need to find out what happened to your claim previously and why it was stopped and hopefully you'll be able to re-open it and get it backdated fully. I'd guess that when you got your p45, and then didn't claim JSA, the HB dept thought you were no longer eligible to claim at all and stopped your benefits then. Only they will know this though.
> YOu can get advice from Shelter or CAB or possibly from your housing association.
> afaik no disability benefits will pay for rent specifically. You may be able to claim ESA or PIP but they won't backdate to before you apply for them so get an application in asap.


Thank you for the advice - best get hobbling up to the bus stop lol!  Fingers crossed we work something out thanks again


----------



## teqniq (Mar 3, 2016)

Tories block plan to look at the impact of their disability benefit cuts


----------



## teqniq (Mar 4, 2016)

Iain Duncan Smith exposed after using anti-cuts cancer charity to back his cuts



> Iain Duncan Smith has used a cancer charity that's campaigning against his welfare cuts - to defend his welfare cuts.
> 
> The Work and Pensions Secretary quoted Macmillan to back slashing £30 a week from sickness benefit Employment and Support Allowance (ESA), we can reveal.
> 
> ...


----------



## smokedout (Mar 5, 2016)

worth watching for an analysis of where social security policy is going


----------



## Jay Park (Mar 6, 2016)

It makes so sad and at the same time so extremely angry to read this page.... The world is insane.


----------



## chainsawjob (Mar 7, 2016)

Unite are organising a day of action against sanctions this Wednesday, the 9th. There will be protests outside job centres across the country.



> More and more people are facing benefit sanctions. Half a million people have had their benefits suddenly stopped by sanctions in the last 12 months.
> 
> That’s half a million people, many of whom have been plunged into poverty, unable to heat their homes or even eat. How is this meant to help prepare people for work?
> *
> ...




Details here Stop benefit sanctions


----------



## 8115 (Mar 18, 2016)

Great documentary about the "regeneration" that's happening.

The Estate We're In


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 19, 2016)

Didn't know where to put this, but it probably deserves a place here, & not in the 'wasting ur bandwidthz' thread. I hope it inspires young people to get political as this young man clearly is. Such a talent.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 23, 2016)

Protest apparently inside parliament during PMQ about disability cuts 

Disability campaigners stage protest inside parliament - Politics live


----------



## treelover (Mar 23, 2016)

Only Caroline and John Mc(as usual) came out to see them 

St Paul, sorry, Duncan Smith nowhere to be seen.


----------



## treelover (Mar 23, 2016)




----------



## Bernie Gunther (Mar 23, 2016)

I was a JSA claimant on Twitter



BBC coverage being censored ... ?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 23, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I was a JSA claimant on Twitter
> 
> 
> 
> BBC coverage being censored ... ?




Mr reporter needs to learn to use the phrase 'or what?'


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 23, 2016)

Fair fucking play. Doffs cap.


----------



## StoneRoad (Mar 23, 2016)

I'm impressed that the banner got past "security" ...
fair play to the protesters and shame on the beeb / HoP staff for the censorship


----------



## treelover (Mar 24, 2016)

Osborne’s ratings plunge after Budget, and Corbyn more popular than PM


IPSO MORI POLL, 84% oppose current disability benefit cuts, paradigm shift, or temporary conscience blip?

and the budget a disaster for the Tories.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 24, 2016)




----------



## teqniq (Mar 26, 2016)

Homeless children dying from neglect and abuse after families moved out of their local areas


----------



## treelover (Mar 26, 2016)

> *Parkinson’s sufferers ‘able to work’, says the new Work and Pensions Secretary Stephen Crabb*
> Minister made comments the day before replacing Iain Duncan Smith - and later admitted they were 'inaccurate'
> 
> New Work and Pensions Secretary said people with Parkinson's were 'able to work'



Oh dear, he also mentions Motor Neurone Disease.

My Uncle(former steward on QE2) had Parkinsons in later life, couldn't do much, what a twat

The charities have got to fuck these people off their boards, etc.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 31, 2016)

Pic via local MP of JCP near me.. ESA Challenge? I would presume this is to get people off of ESA... looks pretty grim and is that space invaders they've based the chart on?


----------



## NoXion (Mar 31, 2016)

Looks like a series of inhuman and anonymous collections of pixels to be thoughtlessly blasted away to me. Says a lot, and none of it good.


----------



## 8115 (Apr 11, 2016)

Dispatches about PIP on C4 now.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 11, 2016)

Intesting programme on tv C4 the Great Benefits Row with Ade Adepitan about PIP payment assessments now


----------



## krink (Apr 14, 2016)

Not sure where to put this but wanted to get it off my chest. I do Housing Benefit work and just had a woman who has had the new "living" wage increase on her pay which worked out at a whopping £8 a week. This has now been reduced by a reduction in housing benefit and council tax support of £7.13 a week. so her net increase is 87p a week. what a complete con.


----------



## 8115 (Apr 14, 2016)

DWP 'punishing' low-paid full-time workers under new benefits rule


----------



## Greebo (Apr 14, 2016)

8115 said:


> DWP 'punishing' low-paid full-time workers under new benefits rule


WTAF?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2016)

krink said:


> Not sure where to put this but wanted to get it off my chest. I do Housing Benefit work and just had a woman who has had the new "living" wage increase on her pay which worked out at a whopping £8 a week. This has now been reduced by a reduction in housing benefit and council tax support of £7.13 a week. so her net increase is 87p a week. what a complete con.



Fucking despicable, isn't it? Given how many people in the UK have been pushed onto HB/LHA in the last decade, you'd think that nailing people almost pound-for-pound with regard to what's actually a cost-of-living-increase (given that the NMW wasn't fit for man nor beast) would be the last thing that the bureaucratic fucks would do, but no! Let's penalise someone whose "rise" is actually less than required to compensate for risen costs!


----------



## 8115 (Apr 18, 2016)

BBC reporting on pay to stay council rents are describing it as an end to subsidised rents (used this term twice).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2016)

8115 said:


> BBC reporting on pay to stay council rents are describing it as an end to subsidised rents (used this term twice).



On which programmes, please?


----------



## 8115 (Apr 19, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> On which programmes, please?


Today in Parliament I think, last night 11.30.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2016)

8115 said:


> Today in Parliament I think, last night 11.30.



Just submitted a snitty complaint asking them to get their journos to do their homework, and explaining that there is NO such subsidy.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 21, 2016)

Secret DWP plan to CHARGE disabled people to appeal benefits decisions revealed

DWP had secret plan to start charging for disability benefit appeals  never actually put forward as policy I think

Amusing poll at the bottom, do you trust the dwp? 99% say no


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2016)

BigTom said:


> Secret DWP plan to CHARGE disabled people to appeal benefits decisions revealed
> 
> DWP had secret plan to start charging for disability benefit appeals  never actually put forward as policy I think
> 
> Amusing poll at the bottom, do you trust the dwp? 99% say no


what stinks there is that they know the money for appeals will be there, that govmnt will pay the deparments bills. So the idea to charge has nothing to do with money saving and everything with trying to reduce the embarrasing figures showing appeals being won overwhelmingly more often than lost. The devios shits


----------



## treelover (May 14, 2016)

> *Loach film on shame of poverty in Britain moves Cannes to tears*
> 
> Director Ken Loach denounced the British government's "conscious cruelty" towards the poor Friday after his film about the poverty and humiliation inflicted upon them by welfare cuts had critics at the Cannes film festival in tears.
> 
> ...






> The movie's writer Paul Laverty said the research team was stunned at how people with mental health issues and disabilities were targeted by the welfare cuts.
> 
> He said people interviewed within the Department for Work and Pensions told them "they were humiliated at how they were forced to treat the public. There is nothing accidental about it."
> 
> ...




Maybe Kens' last film will make the issues viral, questions will certainly be asked, why civil society, etc, didn't do more.


----------



## treelover (May 22, 2016)

Film has won Palme d'Or at Cannes, a real shame there is no mass movement on the issue to take adavantage of it..


----------



## teqniq (May 23, 2016)

do they serve spam?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2016)

teqniq said:


> do they serve spam?



At room temperature, in thick slices.


----------



## teqniq (May 23, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> At room temperature, in thick slices.


Ah I should explain there was a shedload of spam postings above that one of mine concerning some eating establishments but they've been removed now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Ah I should explain there was a shedload of spam postings above that one of mine concerning some eating establishments but they've been removed now.



Bah, there was me thinking you'd been all intermalecktual, and were passing wry comment on treelover having put the same "wins the _Palme d'Or_" post on 3 different threads!


----------



## teqniq (May 23, 2016)

tbh I hadn't thought of that.


----------



## Greebo (May 23, 2016)

teqniq said:


> tbh I hadn't thought of that.


Shoulda happened.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 6, 2016)

Interesting news.



> A project run by Oxford city council and the Department for Work and Pensions found long-term jobless claimants were 2% less likely to find work for every pound of income lost through housing benefit cuts.
> 
> The EU-funded project sought to help unemployed claimants who faced housing benefit cuts as a result of the government's benefit cap and other welfare changes.


----------



## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 23, 2016)

Can we slag off Cameron n the Tories here? I hate what they've done to our benefits system. The level of stress dealing with all these changes has been phenomenal.

It's ok for these politician sitting down in their comfy chairs n posh suits while people are stressing whether they're going to put food on the table

Makes my blood boil. Scum of the earth the lotta um. And did I mention I hate politicians? Bloody assholes.

Evey


----------



## treelover (Jun 23, 2016)

> * Every week Charlotte sees desperation at first hand – outside the job centre *
> 
> Frances Ryan
> Her group have been helping jobseekers exposed to the vagaries of Britain’s benefit system. She says people feel like criminals in a culture of fear
> ...



Well done Charlotte and group, wish there were more like you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2016)

treelover said:


> Well done Charlotte and group, wish there were more like you.


have you ever thought of doing something similar?


----------



## treelover (Jun 23, 2016)

I did, and you fucking know it, with little support, thats why i am so bitter about the left, civil society, etc, and its priorities, now do one stalker, and stop soiling the thread.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jun 24, 2016)

DWP, Atos, and Disability Minister Justin Tomlinson have been harassing a child sexual abuse survivor with severe PTSD who is waiting to give evidence in court, who has been told by police that he can't discuss the case, including the abuse he suffered, or allow DWP/ATOS access to his medical records, as the case is sub judice - so there's no way he can have a fair reassessment of PIP.


----------



## treelover (Jul 21, 2016)

> * Andy was badly injured on an oil rig. Yet he’s been judged ‘fit for work’ *
> 
> Frances Ryan
> He’s apparently not disabled enough for sickness benefits – but he’s too disabled to stand a chance in the job market, and he’s hungry
> ...


----------



## inva (Jul 21, 2016)

yes and so many of these cruel decisions that we never even hear about.

not to mention all those people who just gave up at some stage of the process because they couldn't face the stress, the hostility and the harassment that goes with it. I know I couldn't have got on the esa without help doing the forms, not a chance. it's sickening to think of how many people who could and should qualify are too isolated to get help or for whatever reason not able to get a just decision.


----------



## 03gills (Jul 24, 2016)

Greebo said:


> WTAF?



This has the potential to be a huge political miscalculation by the Conservatives, as it will include working class Tories too. I personally know someone on Tax Credits that this will eventually affect, & if they are any indicator then trust me, you can't even begin to imagine how badly shit is going to hit the fan when this scheme really kicks in.

Once in work people are entitled to financial support to top up low wages without conditionality & should be trusted to get on with their own lives.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jul 24, 2016)

Wait, what?

They are FINING people? Not just a sanction?

Neither is better, but a sanction is a stoppage of benefit income. A fine would be them demanding money be paid back.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 20, 2016)

I'm a DWP call handler and have no time to care about your disability claim


----------



## chainsawjob (Aug 20, 2016)

Housing Crisis Roadshow, 15 venues over a month in the South East

Housing crisis sparks month-long fact finding tour by Unite


----------



## Schmetterling (Aug 20, 2016)

teqniq said:


> I'm a DWP call handler and have no time to care about your disability claim



I avoided that article this morning; I have just read it and it is as depressing as I thought it would be.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 20, 2016)

Yup.


----------



## treelover (Sep 6, 2016)

Security Check Required


Disabled People Against Cuts 'week of action' for disabled and sick people's rights, including 'No More Benefit Deaths' protest in London on Thursday has begun

as usual interest from wider society seems minimal.


----------



## treelover (Sep 6, 2016)

05.09.2016 - DPAC Presents: #Right2IL Pop-Up Street Theatre at Downing St. - Images | Luca Neve


can't seem to embed these images, can someone else have a go?


----------



## treelover (Sep 6, 2016)




----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 17, 2016)

Hopeful news for Scotland 

End of hated sanctions regime as SNP vow to block DWP from penalising claimants


----------



## BigTom (Sep 17, 2016)

chainsawjob said:


> Hopeful news for Scotland
> 
> End of hated sanctions regime as SNP vow to block DWP from penalising claimants



That's great news if they are able to do it (I have no knowledge of the powers they are getting)


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 21, 2016)

Fucking hell... 



Tax agency forced woman to use food banks after ruling she was living with 19th century quaker Joseph Rowntree


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 28, 2016)

Things won't improve with Damian Green at the DWP, either.

Haven't heard of the new DWP Secretary? Damian Green could become even more hated than Iain Duncan Smith | EvolvePolitics.com


----------



## treelover (Oct 10, 2016)

Just heard of someone locally with severe cerebral palsy losing their high rate benefits and then of course their mobility car, ffs.


----------



## Hurin85 (Oct 16, 2016)

I honestly believe its shocking how some people are being treated but the issue is people without disability's claiming that spoils it for others. The government needs to do more around punishing false claim's to stop people from doing this. That way we can have money for the people who truly do need it.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 16, 2016)

Hurin85 said:


> I honestly believe its shocking how some people are being treated but the issue is people without disability's claiming that spoils it for others. The government needs to do more around punishing false claim's to stop people from doing this. That way we can have money for the people who truly do need it.


Why do you believe that the issue is people without disabilities claiming?


----------



## Greebo (Oct 16, 2016)

Hurin85 said:


> I honestly believe its shocking how some people are being treated but the issue is people without disability's claiming that spoils it for others.
> <snip>


Do one, Sweetie.

You obviously know sweet FA about either benefit fraud investigation, the fraudlines, malicious reporting, how it feels to be repeatedly investigated when you've done nothing wrong whatsoever, nor even how much sheer hard work it takes to fill in a claim form for any of the sickness or disability benefits.

I, on the other hand, have plenty of experience, direct and indirect.

Incidentally, money which isn't claimed on disability benefits doesn't go back into the pot for 'deserving claimants'; it goes into the general load of money sloshing around for things like Trident.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 16, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Why do you believe that the issue is people without disabilities claiming?


DM reader


----------



## crossthebreeze (Oct 16, 2016)

Yeah do one Hurin85 
Benefit fraud is something like 0.7% of payments (the figure is even lower for disability-related benefits).  Underpayments of benefit due to claimant or DWP error are something like 0.9% but this figure is higher for disability benefits (and the figure would be way higher if the amount of people who don't claim what they are entitled to were included).
Benefit fraud hotlines and the like encourage harassment of disabled people and carers and other benefit claimants, and the whole political emphasis on benefit fraud (while the government cuts investigations into tax fraud) has led to increases in disability hate crime.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## StoneRoad (Oct 16, 2016)

On the other hand, tax avoidance / evasion is far more of a problem: 2011/12 estimates, so bit out of date, but the point remains ...


----------



## inva (Oct 16, 2016)

in the face of a hostile benefits regime and the antagonistic relationships that causes, it's very difficult to feel like you can be honest with the DWP or often other people normally. Most of the time I try to avoid telling people I'm on ESA or that I'm disabled and suspect some would think I was lying about it if they did know and so I keep that in mind when hearing of benefits cheats.

Yeah, some probably take piss, many others have to learn to play the system to the best of their advantage because otherwise you lose out on what you should rightly be entitled to. You can be pressured to be one of the 'good ones' when navigating the benefits system as disabled or unemployed and you can easily get punished for it. I needed loads of help with the forms because if I'd answered the questions straight and 'honestly' how I first read them and began answering there's no way I'd have got anything, so the cheating is vastly more on the side of the DWP.

To me the whole thing seems to have been intended to be unfair and adversarial to frighten/force people into the labour market and increase the pressure there and the competition among people to lower wages and discourage workplace struggle. And I think that's always how they'll use those on disability benefits because of it's ability to function as a reserve of the reserve in the labour pool.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 18, 2016)

Hurin85 said:


> I honestly believe its shocking how some people are being treated but the issue is people without disability's claiming that spoils it for others. The government needs to do more around punishing false claim's to stop people from doing this. That way we can have money for the people who truly do need it.



Even the last 3 governments haven't been able establish a rate of fraud beyond 0.9%, and that fraud rate *includes* errors of payment on the part of the DWP.

Are you aware of what a claimant for either ESA or PIP has to go through? You have to minutely detail your disability, attend an assessment and - most importantly - supply medical evidence such as consultant reports in order to prove that you are long-term sick or disabled, and that you have the physical or mental issues you claim to have.

Talk of false claims is spurious. It sustains government bullshit about disabled people being scroungers and cheats, because people hear sentiments like you've expressed, and think "I bet they're all at it".

Suspicion is a horrible thing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 18, 2016)

inva said:


> in the face of a hostile benefits regime and the antagonistic relationships that causes, it's very difficult to feel like you can be honest with the DWP or often other people normally. Most of the time I try to avoid telling people I'm on ESA or that I'm disabled and suspect some would think I was lying about it if they did know and so I keep that in mind when hearing of benefits cheats.
> 
> Yeah, some probably take piss, many others have to learn to play the system to the best of their advantage because otherwise you lose out on what you should rightly be entitled to. You can be pressured to be one of the 'good ones' when navigating the benefits system as disabled or unemployed and you can easily get punished for it. I needed loads of help with the forms because if I'd answered the questions straight and 'honestly' how I first read them and began answering there's no way I'd have got anything, so the cheating is vastly more on the side of the DWP.
> 
> To me the whole thing seems to have been intended to be unfair and adversarial to frighten/force people into the labour market and increase the pressure there and the competition among people to lower wages and discourage workplace struggle. And I think that's always how they'll use those on disability benefits because of it's ability to function as a reserve of the reserve in the labour pool.



Well said.
Where I live, I'm fairly open about being a claimant, but then I live somewhere that most people claim one benefit or another, and Greebo and I are also known to some as helping people fill out claim forms. It's definitely the case that most disabled people I know are more cagey than me, though. It's a sad truth that some people don't look beyond accusations, to see where the accusations come from, and *why* they have been made.All such people want is a scapegoat, an object of blame for their own failings.  Rulers and governments throughout history have sacrificed scapegoats in order to distract from their own crimes.


----------



## treelover (Oct 21, 2016)

<iframe src="https://embed.theguardian.com/embed/video/film/video/2016/oct/20/ken-loach-i-daniel-blake-dave-johns-video-interview" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Ken Loach on I, Daniel Blake: 'The climate of fear is unacceptable' – video interview


----------



## treelover (Oct 21, 2016)

Ashton under Lyme, if small places can do this, what about big cities, etc?


----------



## crossthebreeze (Oct 21, 2016)

Protests against benefit sanctions in Gateshead and Stockton
and yesterday there was an interactive art thing on the main shopping street in Newcastle linked to I,  Daniel Blake - people signing/writing slogans on blocks of wood to build an 'empathy tower'.


----------



## inva (Oct 22, 2016)

don't really like Ken Loach's films anyway, but don't have much interest in being the marketing campaign for an Assangeist


----------



## teqniq (Oct 27, 2016)

There seem to be these days any number of studies from the welfare system to Brexit which end up stating the bleeding obvious. So yet again, no shit Sherlock.

Study finds ‘clear evidence’ that benefit sanctions lead to increase in food bank use


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 27, 2016)

> *Concentrix stopped people's benefits because it didn't realise RS McColl is a chain of Scottish newsagents, not a secret lover*



Is this the dumbest reason yet for taking away people's tax credits?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2016)

As a jobcentre adviser, I got ‘brownie points’ for cruelty | Mary O’Hara



> Angela Neville, 48, is describing events she witnessed as a special adviser in a jobcentre that prompted her to write a play about her experiences.
> 
> “We were given lists of customers to call immediately and get them on to the Work Programme,” she recalls. “I said, ‘I’m sorry this can’t happen, this man is in hospital.’ I was told [by my boss]: ‘No, you’ve got to phone him and you’ve got to put this to him and he may be sanctioned.’ I said I’m not doing it.”


----------



## crossthebreeze (Oct 31, 2016)

The rhetoric Green is coming out today is really worrying.
Work as a "health outcome" - and linking getting sick and disabled people into work to making savings for the NHS (because of course those of us with long term health conditions suddenly need no treatment if we are working!).
Claiming most disabled people can do some work.
Implying that Jobcentre+ and NHS will be more linked, and that while SSP might be tapered to allow people to work a few hours, this will go hand in hand with more contact with employer, Jobcentre+, and GP.
Appropriating the language of disability rights.


----------



## Celyn (Oct 31, 2016)

Forcing people unable for it into "work" and sure they mean "work of any kind at all" will actually end up causing more illness. Oh yes, and deaths too.     But some boxes can be ticked, I suppose.


----------



## treelover (Oct 31, 2016)

That is how the initial New Labour welfare reforms were sold, it also allowed co-option of the charities and gain public support.

Btw, people would be surprised what is on the medical records from their GP's, they are not always disabled and sick people's allies.


----------



## chainsawjob (Nov 5, 2016)

Ministers set to force work-related activity on everyone in ESA support group



> *The Department for Work and Pensions is considering forcing all sick and disabled people on out-of-work disability benefits to take part in “mandatory” activity, its new green paper has revealed.*





> _A consultation on the green paper will run until 17 February 2017, and among the ways to comment are __via an online survey__ and by emailing __workandhealth@dwp.gsi.gov.uk_


----------



## treelover (Nov 15, 2016)

> I acted as a Rep in a Tribunal appeal for a friend. They used the fact I was there as evidence that her neurological disease which has almost completely isolated her hadn't prevented her from keeping friends.



Shocking, posted elsewhere, needs circulating,


----------



## Libertad (Nov 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> Shocking, posted elsewhere, needs circulating,



Where is this from? Do you have a link?


----------



## treelover (Nov 16, 2016)

It was a reply to another post on FB, the 'I Daniel Blake' site, the chap replied, I could give you his name on FB by PM, that is all.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 30, 2016)

Some bears shitting in the woods news, NAO report on benefit sanctions

No evidence welfare sanctions work, says National Audit Office

Not looked for the actual report yet.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 2, 2016)

Tories' benefit sanctions costing £153m more to run that it saves a year


----------



## inva (Dec 2, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Tories' benefit sanctions costing £153m more to run that it saves a year


doesn't seem very meaningful to only count payments withheld through sanctions as savings, whereas I'm assuming there's a much greater saving made through denying/discouraging claims altogether.


----------



## chrisalpha3 (Dec 2, 2016)

Thank goodness for Food banks that supply those without, some would be doomed to starvation otherwise


----------



## Smoking kills (Dec 2, 2016)

David Freud, DWP boss in the House of Lords, has resigned. Good riddance to the architect of welfare reform under Labour, the coalition and both Tory prime ministers and all round privileged ignorant cunt.


----------



## BCBlues (Dec 2, 2016)

Smoking kills said:


> David Freud, DWP boss in the House of Lords, has resigned. Good riddance to the architect of welfare reform under Labour, the coalition and both Tory prime ministers and all round privileged ignorant cunt.



Nasty, seriously out of touch toss pot isn't he.  Like you say Good Riddance.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 3, 2016)

BCBlues said:


> Nasty, seriously out of touch toss pot isn't he.  Like you say Good Riddance.



"Good riddance" would be the fucker being found dead, choked to death with an artificial leg down his throat, and a pair of crutches up his arse.


----------



## extra dry (Dec 21, 2016)

Keep your cv to date or the gov. will shaft you.


----------



## Libertad (Dec 21, 2016)

extra dry said:


> Keep your cv to date or the gov. will shaft you.



Fucking bastards.


----------



## treelover (Jan 5, 2017)

> Sheffield City Region trial to support residents with long-term health conditions or disabilities
> Published 1st November 2016 at 9:59am
> 
> Following a Government announcement on 31 October 2016, Sheffield City Region will be working with local partners to better understand how best to support people with health conditions and disabilities to return to or stay in work. Local Job Centre Plus and GP surgeries in Sheffield City Region will soon begin a trial which will offer innovative new support services to residents with long-term health conditions or disabilities.
> ...




Birmingham and Sheffield City Region to be trial areas for the most invasive welfare reforms for ESA yet, already letters to all on ESA in the regions are going out demanding access to all medical notes, names of consultants, access to GP's, etc, many GP's notes are atrocious and frequently bear no resemblance to the persons condition, especially if they have complex ones, people with MH issues will be targeted as well and i fear suicides in these regions, Councils in both regions are fully behind these schemes with 77 million to be spent over time, they are 'black box, schemes, which means anything can be done, One needs to ask did Cllrs vote on this, were there debates in Chambers in Sheffield, Barnsley, Birmingham, etc? L/P councillors spoke at 'I Daniel Blake' showings, they will know this will not be benign.were they aware of all this?. Will there be compulsory, sanctions? Who is the SCR and BCR accountable to, this is really alarming. This is to be undertook with the NHS raising issues of privacy, patient confidentiality, civil liberties, will the NHS agree to put forward sanctions if non compliance by the client, etc.

It is unlikely given recent Gov't's approach to reform that it will be benign, maybe forced medical treatment and many disabled and sick people are already very worried, it is also going to be fast tracked. There is a lot of money in it as well, so disability charities, training agencies, local media, etc will want a slice of it.it doesn't bode well for disabled and sick people.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 5, 2017)

treelover said:


> Birmingham and Sheffield City Region to be trial areas for the most invasive welfare reforms for ESA yet, already letters to all on ESA in the regions are going out demanding access to all medical notes, names of consultants, access to GP's, etc, many GP's notes are atrocious and frequently bear no resemblance to the persons condition, especially if they have complex ones, people with MH issues will be targeted as well and i fear suicides in these regions, Councils in both regions are fully behind these schemes with 77 million to be spent over time, they are 'black box, schemes, which means anything can be done, One needs to ask did Cllrs vote on this, were there debates in Chambers in Sheffield, Barnsley, Birmingham, etc? L/P councillors spoke at 'I Daniel Blake' showings, they will know this will not be benign.were they aware of all this?. Will there be compulsory, sanctions? Who is the SCR and BCR accountable to, this is really alarming. This is to be undertook with the NHS raising issues of privacy, patient confidentiality, civil liberties, will the NHS agree to put forward sanctions if non compliance by the client, etc.
> 
> It is unlikely given recent Gov't's approach to reform that it will be benign, maybe forced medical treatment and many disabled and sick people are already very worried, it is also going to be fast tracked. There is a lot of money in it as well, so disability charities, training agencies, local media, etc will want a slice of it.it doesn't bode well for disabled and sick people.



The west midlands combined authority is more than Birmingham, it also includes the 4 Black Country council areas (Wolverhampton, Walsall, Sandwell and Dudley), Coventry and Warwickshire, with the other surrounding county councils involved in some way. Only the mayor is directly elected (elections still to come), everyone else is an appointed councillor (so they are elected but not to those roles). I've no idea if it's been discussed by council but I doubt it and I've no idea which councillor would have the office that would be responsible for this tbh.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jan 9, 2017)

Current Australia :/


----------



## chainsawjob (Feb 9, 2017)

PIP investigation: Welfare expert says two-thirds of appeals involve lying assessors


----------



## treelover (Feb 10, 2017)

> *Mother of ‘fit for work’ victim calls for ministers to face criminal charges *
> 
> *The mother of a disabled man who starved to death after he was found “fit for work” and lost his out-of-work disability benefits has called for ministers to face criminal charges.*
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Feb 13, 2017)

Woman housebound with flesh-eating disease for 15 years told 'go back to work'

It just gets worse, a woman with necrosis(flesh eating disease) who can really only go out for 15 mins, is found fit for work.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Feb 13, 2017)

I can't like that,  but thanks for posting. Its so awful.


----------



## Schmetterling (Feb 13, 2017)

treelover said:


> Woman housebound with flesh-eating disease for 15 years told 'go back to work'
> 
> It just gets worse, a woman with necrosis(flesh eating disease) who can really only go out for 15 mins, is found fit for work.



Fuckers!!!


----------



## BigTom (Feb 21, 2017)

not sure if this has been posted already but there's a public accounts committee report on benefit sanctions from a couple of weeks ago that I've just seen, not read it yet though: https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmpubacc/775/775.pdf
summary headline is that sanctions are applied inconsistently and badly and doesn't look like it'll be a happy report.


----------



## Ergo Proxy (Feb 24, 2017)

Well that's the end of Pip Mobility for those with mental health conditions. 

Using legislation to over rule 2 Upper Tribunal decisions is quite frankly a new low for people who you couldn't think could get any lower!

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/194/made

The bit in question is this



> Regulation 2(4) reverses the effect of the judgment of the Upper Tribunal in the case of _MH v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (PIP)_ [2016] UKUT 0531 (AAC) by making it clear that, in the activity “planning and following journeys” in Part 3 of the Schedule (mobility activities), the effects of psychological distress are not relevant to descriptors c, d or f (planning or following the route of a journey).


----------



## Libertad (Feb 25, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Well that's the end of Pip Mobility for those with mental health conditions.
> 
> Using legislation to over rule 2 Upper Tribunal decisions is quite frankly a new low for people who you couldn't think could get any lower!
> 
> ...



A fairly comprehensive blog piece by Kitty S Jones on this here:

Government subverts judicial process  and abandons promise on mental health ‘parity of esteem’  to strip people of PIP entitlement


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 4, 2017)

Housing Benefit For 18-21 Year-Olds Axed Under New Rule Slipped Out By Department For Work And Pensions | The Huffington Post


----------



## BigTom (Mar 4, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Housing Benefit For 18-21 Year-Olds Axed Under New Rule Slipped Out By Department For Work And Pensions | The Huffington Post



oh fuck


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 4, 2017)

I've already noticed a spike in youth homeless in my own town and northampton over the last 5 years. This is going to have young adults out on the streets. They must know this.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 4, 2017)

> “We want to make sure that 18 to 21-year-olds do not slip straight into a life on benefits, which is why we are helping young people get the training, skills and experience they need to move into a job and build a career,” [spokesman for the DWP] said.



You absolute fucking idiot. How the fuck is someone supposed to get a job if they're living on the streets? It ain't impossible but it's a hell of a lot more difficult than when you've got a home. Where do they charge their mobiles, assuming they even have one in the first place? Where do they store and clean their clothing for interviews? If by some miracle they happen to actually land a position, where are they going to store and clean their work clothes for the first month? How can one ensure that one gets to work on time when one is sleeping on the fucking street?

Same goes for those bullshit "training" courses that the DWP likes to subject people to.



> “This government is delivering on its commitment to ensure young people in the benefit system face the same choices as young people who work but may not be able to afford to leave home."



Why don't more people see how transparent this kind of shit is? They're basically saying that they want the threat of homelessness hanging over the head of every young person who doesn't have access to the Bank of Mummy and Daddy. That kind of language sounds beige and harmless if you don't think about it and/or aren't aware of what they're really doing, but given the effects are becomingly increasingly more visible by the year as cuts are made, I'm at a loss to explain why more people don't call out this kind of bullshit.



> Vulnerable people will continue to be protected, as will carers, families and those who have been in work for at least six months prior to claiming will be exempt, and those working at least 16 hours at the National Minimum Wage.



This would make the previously quoted statement an outright lie, would it not?!


----------



## BigTom (Mar 4, 2017)

A sad reminder that in 2009 15% of NEETs (18-25yrs old and Not in Education, Employent or Training) die within ten years (which I assume means before they are 35 - I can't access the TES article: Top mandarin: 15% of Neets die within 10 years) 

I'd imagine that figure has got even worse as a result of cuts, especially youth service and careers support advice services at council levels. It will skyrocket as a result of this cut. It's obscene. 

also NoXion that middle quote is a lie anyway because anyone in low pay can claim housing benefit, tapered off as you earn, but really anyone in work has the same options as someone on benefits (caveat being that travel and childcare costs can more than wipeout the tapered gain you make coming off benefits so it may be true in some cases).
The protection of vulnerable people will be bullshit, care leavers will probably be explicitly exempted but I bet everything else goes into a discretionary fund which will be way too small to cover the people who can't stay at home because of abusive relationships or similar.


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## NoXion (Mar 4, 2017)

BigTom said:


> *A sad reminder that in 2009 15% of NEETs (18-25yrs old and Not in Education, Employent or Training) die within ten years (which I assume means before they are 35 - I can't access the TES article: Top mandarin: 15% of Neets die within 10 years) *
> 
> I'd imagine that figure has got even worse as a result of cuts, especially youth service and careers support advice services at council levels. It will skyrocket as a result of this cut. It's obscene.
> 
> ...



Jesus suffering fuck. That makes me feel like I dodged a bullet, as I was in that category for few a years around that time.


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## Jackobi (Mar 4, 2017)

This paves the way for abolishing JSA too, leaving no option for under 21s except for one of the new 3 million 'apprenticeships' making sandwiches, stacking boxes or some equally mundane 'training' for fuck all money.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 4, 2017)

Pardon me if I sound cynical, but these "apprenticeships" seem only to be preparation for working on the "zero hours contracts" so beloved of many companies, which have reached record levels.
There are exceptions to this exploitive behaviour ... but examples are few and far between.

Zero hours contracts reach record levels - BBC News


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## purenarcotic (Mar 4, 2017)

I'm unclear on the exemption about those in Temp Acomm - is that existing young people or new people making an application?


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## Smoking kills (Mar 5, 2017)

purenarcotic said:


> I'm unclear on the exemption about those in Temp Acomm - is that existing young people or new people making an application?


Precisely. Throw "migrating onto U.C." into the mix, with the "changes" in Housing Benefit and Council tax systems and stand back.


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## passenger (Mar 5, 2017)

.


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## chainsawjob (Mar 11, 2017)

Scotland getting it right again, countering the wrongs.

£58m to be spent in Scotland to help plug UK Government welfare cuts


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## Ergo Proxy (Mar 11, 2017)

Revealed: every benefit cut to hit Liverpool families since Tories elected


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## BigTom (Mar 14, 2017)

DWP’s fit-to-work tests ‘cause permanent damage to mental health’, study finds

in depth study / interviews with 30 people with pre-existing mental health problems that had the wca.


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## treelover (Mar 17, 2017)

Have your say in the development of Labour policy



> *Social security and pensions for all*
> 
> Living standards and wages have come under great pressure and the Government’s changes to social security have added to that pressure. While it’s welcome that the number of people in work has increased in recent years, this is not the experience in all parts of the country and for all population groups. On top of these labour market inequalities, millions of British workers are struggling to make ends meet because, even if they are in work, the jobs they have are too often insecure and low paid.
> 
> ...



Labour are doing public consultations inc social security.


----------



## MNB (Mar 18, 2017)

Blagsta said:


> I dunno about anyone else, but I'm sick of seeing people say "why doesn't someone do something" (yes, I know actually some people are, but y'know...).
> 
> Let's do something.  I'm in south London.  What I'd like to see is ideas for tactics/strategy on this thread and to arrange an initial meeting.
> 
> Anyone up for it?  Or am I pissing in the wind?



We're too young to vote but old enough to care so this is what we did :


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## Libertad (Mar 18, 2017)

Fair play to you MNB


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## babyishcare (Mar 23, 2017)

An alternative way to sing the Bob Seeger song "Against the Wind", especially if it's 3:00 a.m., and you're drunk.
Piss in the wind, keep pissing into the wind.


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## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

treelover said:


> Have your say in the development of Labour policy
> 
> 
> 
> Labour are doing public consultations inc social security.


They better do it quickly then1


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## treelover (Apr 30, 2017)

The Big Questions, Series 10: Episode 15

Great discussion on welfare 'reform' on BBC The Big Questions today, Katy Pickett's(The Spirit Level) attack on the reforms was fantastic, the defence by the ex Duncan Smith/Centre for Social justice acolyte was chilling, he sound like an 19th C workhouse defender.


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## Who PhD (Apr 30, 2017)

treelover said:


> The Big Questions, Series 10: Episode 15
> 
> Great discussion on welfare 'reform' on BBC The Big Questions today, Katy Pickett's(The Spirit Level) attack on the reforms was fantastic, the defence by the ex Duncan Smith/Centre for Social justice acolyte was chilling, he sound like an 19th C workhouse defender.


I see the Henry Jackson society seems to have a permanent seat on this programme.

As does one of the Hitchens clan (this is a complete assumptoin, I've no idea if Dan is any relation to that odious goblin who's never off the BBC despite moaning about it all the time).

I thought Katy Pickett, whom I had never heard of before, was very impressive. One can only hope she will be listened to by the audience in Toryland.

That guy who worked for IDS' think tank said he was once upon a time on the rock and roll and then got the gig making policy with the Demon of Chingford. Somehow I doubt that.


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## treelover (Apr 30, 2017)

Yes, i thought their (HJS) M.O was just foreign policy, but it seems its right wing welfare policy as well, need to keep an eye on them.


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## BigTom (May 4, 2017)

Monitoring Poverty and Social Exclusion (MPSE) 2016



> This latest annual report from the New Policy Institute brings together the most recent data to present a comprehensive picture of poverty in the UK. - See more at: Monitoring Poverty and Social Exclusion (MPSE) 2016



Joseph Rowntree Foundation commission, at work so not looked at it, just saw a tweet which said of 44,000 JSA sanction reviews, 41,000 were overturned - I'm assuming that means appeals which is a shocking rate of sanctions being overturned.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 4, 2017)

BigTom said:


> Monitoring Poverty and Social Exclusion (MPSE) 2016
> 
> 
> 
> Joseph Rowntree Foundation commission, at work so not looked at it, just saw a tweet which said of 44,000 JSA sanction reviews, 41,000 were overturned - I'm assuming that means appeals which is a shocking rate of sanctions being overturned.




What we tend to forget, in our rage at such injustice, is that the sanctions regime was designed to save money.  Pay someone 48 weeks of dole instead of 52 weeks, and whether they get their money reinstated or not, a saving has been made.  It's sick and disgusting, but worth bearing in mind, as is the fact that a minority of people sanctioned will sign off entirely.


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## NoXion (May 7, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> What we tend to forget, in our rage at such injustice, is that the sanctions regime was designed to save money.  Pay someone 48 weeks of dole instead of 52 weeks, and whether they get their money reinstated or not, a saving has been made.  It's sick and disgusting, but worth bearing in mind, as is the fact that a minority of people sanctioned will sign off entirely.



How does that work then? If a sanctioned is overturned, does the claimant not then get the money for that period for which they were sanctioned? Because even if the costs of administrating sanctions and appeals are ignored, it's not exactly saving money if 93% of the time still gets paid out later anyway, is it? Adding in the costs of administration seems likely to wipe out any savings made even in the event of a minority signing off.

I think the purpose behind this kind of crap is just to make the process of starting and maintaining a claim as difficult as they think they can get away with. Like austerity in general, the way its done now actually costs more money than if they were to just do it properly in the first place.


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## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2017)

NoXion said:


> How does that work then? If a sanctioned is overturned, does the claimant not then get the money for that period for which they were sanctioned? Because even if the costs of administrating sanctions and appeals are ignored, it's not exactly saving money if 93% of the time still gets paid out later anyway, is it? Adding in the costs of administration seems likely to wipe out any savings made even in the event of a minority signing off.
> 
> I think the purpose behind this kind of crap is just to make the process of starting and maintaining a claim as difficult as they think they can get away with. Like austerity in general, the way its done now actually costs more money than if they were to just do it properly in the first place.



It's usually very difficult/bordering on impossible to get a back-claim validated for the first couple of weeks of a sanction, not least because many people don't appeal straight away, but take advice first. 

Also, bear in mind that because a sanction means that Housing Benefit is automatically stopped (and any CT concession), and most people don't find out about it, or make a "nil income" claim for a couple of weeks, that savings are made there too (HB/LHA and CTB are rarely backdated fully).


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## BigTom (May 7, 2017)

Also lots of people don't appeal their sanction. More about harassing people to sign off entirely imo


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## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2017)

BigTom said:


> Also lots of people don't appeal their sanction. More about harassing people to sign off entirely imo



Sadly true about not appealing.


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## crossthebreeze (Jun 6, 2017)

Thought i'd add the videos made by DPAC fir the election. Please share them widely.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jun 6, 2017)




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## crossthebreeze (Jun 6, 2017)




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## crossthebreeze (Jun 6, 2017)




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## teqniq (Jun 23, 2017)

The judge who ruled Tory policy causes 'real misery for no good purpose' just proved why they have to go

The last paragraph:



> The Conservative Government is a shambles, lacking leadership, floundering towards a deal with a bigoted party of climate change deniers, and yet cracking on with their agenda of fiscal absurdity and rampant social cruelty. The ruling on the benefits cap should only be the beginning. They have twisted and gouged at this country for long enough. They have to go.


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## Who PhD (Jun 23, 2017)

But they won't go. David Gauke is another carbon copy expenses-trousering tory bootboy. Just like the last 3. He will press the big red button in the DWP hQ marked 'legal team' and this judgement will be sent spooling back into the bureacracy like your favourite mix-tape in your favourite walkman. Nothng will change under the Tories. Even if Corbyn gets in the same tinpot fascists on the front line will still be there, enjoying their ability ot abuse the hierarchy of power that will continue because that structure isn't going anywhere.

Or the tories will retrofit the legislation like superman flyuing back in time to save lois lane.


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## chainsawjob (Aug 31, 2017)

DWP spends £39m defending decisions to strip benefits from sick and disabled people



> It emerged earlier this year that government officials are given targets to reject four out of five initial appeals – known as mandatory reconsiderations – for some disability benefits.
> 
> Further data obtained by _The Independent_under Freedom of Information law shows the Government then spent a further £17m fighting cases in the courts that were not settled at the initial appeal stage, bringing the total appeals process cost to £39m last year.
> 
> ...



My bold! So not only is this scandalous amount of money being spent, it's not even 'working', it's not achieving the government's objective of removing benefits from people who are entitled to them, and have to fight through an appeal to keep them. The money being spent on reassessments, appeals,  and MR's outweighs any saved in removing people's benefits, as far as I can tell.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 1, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> DWP spends £39m defending decisions to strip benefits from sick and disabled people
> 
> 
> 
> My bold! So not only is this scandalous amount of money being spent, it's not even 'working', it's not achieving the government's objective of removing benefits from people who are entitled to them, and have to fight through an appeal to keep them. The money being spent on reassessments, appeals,  and MR's outweighs any saved in removing people's benefits, as far as I can tell.



What it *does* do, is generate more money for the companies doing the testing.  Those companies that will have Tory MPs and former MPs on their boards.


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## existentialist (Oct 3, 2017)

crossthebreeze said:


> Yeah do one Hurin85
> Benefit fraud is something like 0.7% of payments (the figure is even lower for disability-related benefits).  Underpayments of benefit due to claimant or DWP error are something like 0.9% but this figure is higher for disability benefits (and the figure would be way higher if the amount of people who don't claim what they are entitled to were included).
> Benefit fraud hotlines and the like encourage harassment of disabled people and carers and other benefit claimants, and the whole political emphasis on benefit fraud (while the government cuts investigations into tax fraud) has led to increases in disability hate crime.
> You clearly don't know what you're talking about.


The charming Happy Larry, no doubt entirely accidentally, posted an interesting question in the wrong thread recently:


Happy Larry said:


> How do you know? The total amount of money that is lost to fraud is completely unknown. All we know is how much has been found to be fraudulent.


Which did get me thinking.

The fraud/error statistics are from the Government's own figures, but, much as it pains me to say it, Larry has a point - how *do* we calculate what proportion of benefits are lost to fraud?

Personally, I am not terribly exercised - if the figure is 0.7% of the total benefits bill, it is almost certainly too small a percentage for even a very proactive effort to reduce it to achieve much, especially when there's all that plump low-hanging tax avoidance/evasion fruit for the plucking, but I'd be curious to know how the 0.7% figure is reached.

Of course, I don't think Happy Larry is coming to this with clean hands, given his posts on other topics: what sickens me most about the "fraud question" is the way it is so smoothly elided into the notion that all benefits claimants are somehow collectively liable, and that preventing fraud justifies a draconian and intrusive regime under which anyone claiming benefits is at risk of being presumed guilty of fraud, where snooper neighbours acquire a power far beyond reasonability to wreck lives by simply making allegations, and where perfectly honest, legitimate people in need of help would prefer to go hungry than put themselves in thrall to an abusive, manipulative system.


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## BigTom (Oct 3, 2017)

existentialist said:


> The charming Happy Larry, no doubt entirely accidentally, posted an interesting question in the wrong thread recently:
> 
> Which did get me thinking.
> 
> ...



This is something the DWP actually do quite well. They have a separate department to the fraud investigation department, I can't remember what it's called. What they do is they pull out a statistically significant sample of claimants and investigate all of them. The fraud figure the DWP gives is based on these investigations and how many claims were found to be fraudulent.
I've often found people thinking that the DWP fraud figure given is the sum of all the successfully prosecuted fraud cases that year and therefore doesn't count any unfound cases but that's not how it works, it's a statistical sample which is then extrapolated to the whole thing.


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## Libertad (Oct 3, 2017)

existentialist said:


> The charming Happy Larry, no doubt entirely accidentally, posted an interesting question in the wrong thread recently:
> 
> Which did get me thinking.
> 
> ...



Well articulated, thank you.


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 4, 2017)

existentialist said:


> how *do* we calculate what proportion of benefits are lost to fraud?



We cannot. 

But fraud is only part of the problem. The people who are really adding to the suffering of those genuinely in need are those who diminish the welfare budget by claiming benefits quite legally, but who could easily get by without them. If only I had a pound for every time I've heard someone say "I've paid my taxes so why shouldn't I get something back?". Their sense of entitlement knows no bounds.


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## existentialist (Oct 4, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> We cannot.
> 
> But fraud is only part of the problem. The people who are really adding to the suffering of those genuinely in need are those who diminish the welfare budget by claiming benefits quite legally, but who could easily get by without them. If only I had a pound for every time I've heard someone say "I've paid my taxes so why shouldn't I get something back?". Their sense of entitlement knows no bounds.


No, that's simply not true - that the lot of the majority of benefits claimants is being made worse by those who defraud the system.

For a start, the level of fraud - whatever you may fondly believe it to be, and be sure that there are plenty of Tory politicians who'd love to share your fond belief - is so small at 0.7% that it could only have the most infinitesimal impact on the rest.

Secondly, the amount of benefits to which people are entitled, and which goes unclaimed, dwarfs the amount lost to fraud. Yet I don't see you banging the walls about that - isn't that as much of an injustice, that people who are entitled to help under the law of the land are somehow being prevented from receiving it?

Your assertion about "I've paid my taxes..." arises in all kinds of contexts, not just benefits claimants, and indeed is often used as an argument against them - "I've paid my taxes, so why should I pay for those workshy bastards to sit on their arses" type thing. I've known quite a few people who take a similar approach to sick pay, insurance ("I've paid the premiums, why shouldn't I occasionally make a dubious claim and get something back?"). So to characterise it as something specific to benefits claimants is disingenuous at best. And, anyway, why shouldn't someone who's entitled to benefits take that line?

I worked for 15 years before I found myself (briefly) in a position to need to make an unemployment benefit claim. During that time, I had many opportunities to engage in tax avoidance (I was self-employed, running a limited company). But I chose not to. I decided to be a "good citizen", and pay a fair whack of taxes, because I believed that was the right thing to do, and I had a (naive, as it turned out) faith in the system to treat me reasonably in return. So, when I found myself making that UB claim, and being treated with contempt and suspicion, expected to go through completely irrelevant box-ticking exercises, and finding myself being quite capriciously messed around on a fairly regular basis, I started questioning the nature of my relationship with the State.

There was no need for the DSS (as it was then) to behave that way towards me - I had done nothing to warrant it. I can't expect them to know that I was being a "good citizen", but I didn't expect them to operate on the assumption that I wasn't.

I am sure I was not atypical, and that for many people, their experience of the benefits system jars with the way they expected to find it. They've "paid their taxes", and have found themselves in need of support from the system they had happily been supporting...and what they find is that the system doesn't give a shit about that. The system regards them as an inconvenience, possibly potentially fraudulent, and will treat them that way because - as far as the system is concerned - they deserve no better.

So, in so far as your (mindreading) complaint about the psychological processes of benefits claimants goes, the system is responsible as much as anyone for creating the mindset you complain about.

And your whole argument seems to be premised on this notion that fraud levels are much higher than the 0.7% the DWP itself reports. So, rather than just waving your hands around, *you* tell *us* what you think that fraud level is. And, of course, you will be prepared to offer some kind of evidence to support your claim, won't you?


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 4, 2017)

_They've had it too good for too long.  
_
The quality of troll is piss-poor these days.


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 4, 2017)

existentialist said:


> For a start, the level of fraud - whatever you may fondly believe it to be, and be sure that there are plenty of Tory politicians who'd love to share your fond belief - is so small at 0.7%



You don't seem able to get your head around the fact that only uncovered fraud can be quantified. One can only take a complete thumb suck at the amount of fraud that is not detected.



existentialist said:


> The system regards them as an inconvenience, possibly potentially fraudulent, and will treat them that way because - as far as the system is concerned - they deserve no better.



That's all in your own head. Obviously, there may well be a few bad apples at DWP, but mostly they are dedicated hardworking people, like anyone else, who unfortunately have to deal with both genuine claimants and chancers.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 4, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> We cannot.
> 
> But fraud is only part of the problem. The people who are really adding to the suffering of those genuinely in need are those who diminish the welfare budget by claiming benefits quite legally, but who could easily get by without them. If only I had a pound for every time I've heard someone say "I've paid my taxes so why shouldn't I get something back?". Their sense of entitlement knows no bounds.



We can and we do.
We take a statistically significant sample of claims, all claims not those flagged as possible fraud, weighting that sample to match the overall demographics of the total claimant population, so that we are looking at proportionally the same number of young/old people, men/women etc.
Then that sample of claims is investigated thoroughly for fraud. Anyone found committed fraud is, of course, prosecuted. The proportion of fraudulent claims in that sample was 0.7% so it is reasonable to say that the proportion of fraudulent claims in the claimant population as a whole will be around 0.7%. I'm not good enough at stats to tell you what the margin of error is for that figure with a 95% confidence interval but it won't be much, a fraction of a % I would think.


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 4, 2017)

We don't know BigTom, it's as simple as that. But, what we do know is that we're at the tip of a bludging iceberg. And don't forget all those 'entitled' people claiming what they're, erm, entitled to.

Like I said, trolls are so shit now.  And posting on the other thread, too. Provocative.  Daring.


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 4, 2017)

In 2014, according to the OECD : 

"Welfare spending in Britain has increased faster than almost any other country in Europe since 2000, new figures show. The cost of unemployment benefits, housing support and pensions as share of the economy has increased by more than a quarter over the past thirteen years – growing at a faster rate than in most of the developed world. Spending has gone up from 18.6 per cent of GDP to 23.7 per cent of GDP – an increase of 27 per cent, according to figures from the OECD, the club of most developed nations. By contrast, the average increase in welfare spending in the OECD was 16 per cent."

Do we really have it that bad?


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 4, 2017)

Welfare. That's a lot under a big umbrella. Want to break it down? Add some context?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 4, 2017)

seventh bullet said:


> Welfare. That's a lot under a big umbrella. Want to break it down? Add some context?



Some context:  The main growth areas have been income-related "in work" benefits, and Housing Benefit.  It doesn't take a genius, or even a spud like Happy Larry, to work out that the reason for the rise is the payment of wages that people cannot subsist on. So-called "growth" of disability benefits, that papers like the _Daily Mail_ whine about, is a growth in claims, not a growth in the number of people paid those benefits, a number which has broadly remained static for the last 5 years.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 4, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> You don't seem able to get your head around the fact that only uncovered fraud can be quantified. One can only take a complete thumb suck at the amount of fraud that is not detected.


So what's this figure for fraud you're basing your assumptions on, then?

ViolentPanda (ETA: and BigTom) have already explained the mechanism by which DWP assess the level of fraud - what are the problems you have with that (perfectly normal) method of surveying the situation?



Happy Larry said:


> That's all in your own head. Obviously, there may well be a few bad apples at DWP, but mostly they are dedicated hardworking people, like anyone else, who unfortunately have to deal with both genuine claimants and chancers.


I'm not talking about "bad apples". I am talking about the way the system is *designed and set up*, in a way which, from my own experience, and borne out by any number of statements from claimants *and staff*, seems designed to put as many obstacles in the way of claims, regardless of their legitimacy.

I'm beginning to think you're arguing this from some kind of agenda-laden position


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 5, 2017)

existentialist said:


> seems designed to put as many obstacles in the way of claims, regardless of their legitimacy.



It may seem that way to those who feel the system is not doing enough for them.

In reality, the people who are employed to design and operate the system are of all political persuasions. It is purely your fantasy that the government is instructing DWP employees to make things difficult for claimants.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 5, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> It may seem that way to those who feel the system is not doing enough for them.
> 
> In reality, the people who are employed to design and operate the system are of all political persuasions. It is purely your fantasy that the government is instructing DWP employees to make things difficult for claimants.


I might well equally say that it is purely your fantasy that it is not. So what's the point?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2017)

existentialist said:


> I might well equally say that it is purely your fantasy that it is not. So what's the point?



Personally, I'd rather believe the informed opinions of DWP employees who have posted here and elsewhere, detailing the coercive tactics their bosses use to force sanctions targets on frontline employees, with punitive action for missing targets.  Where does the sanction for that coercive behaviour come from, and where do the targets originate?  From the ministry, and more specifically, the minister.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 5, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Personally, I'd rather believe the informed opinions of DWP employees who have posted here and elsewhere, detailing the coercive tactics their bosses use to force sanctions targets on frontline employees, with punitive action for missing targets.  Where does the sanction for that coercive behaviour come from, and where do the targets originate?  From the ministry, and more specifically, the minister.


I was curious as to what our interlocutor's fantasy was - he's unusual for a claimant-basher in that, where most accept the DWP treat claimants like shit but attempt to justify it using the fraud "argument", this one seems to want to deny that the DWP has any inherent cunt-like tendencies, and any malfeasance is down to individual bad apples. Likewise, most people grumble about the 0.7% figure but then ramble on about how it's still a lot of money - matey here seems to be suggesting that the figures the DWP (not exactly known for their pure honesty-driven reporting of things) itself publishes are artificially low.

Weird.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 5, 2017)

existentialist said:


> I was curious as to what our interlocutor's fantasy was - he's unusual for a claimant-basher in that, where most accept the DWP treat claimants like shit but attempt to justify it using the fraud "argument", this one seems to want to deny that the DWP has any inherent cunt-like tendencies, and any malfeasance is down to individual bad apples. Likewise, most people grumble about the 0.7% figure but then ramble on about how it's still a lot of money - matey here seems to be suggesting that the figures the DWP (not exactly known for their pure honesty-driven reporting of things) itself publishes are artificially low.
> 
> Weird.



Very.

I've read too many accounts - on here from people like Fedayn ; on Benefits & Work's forums; on Facebook and on other disability fora - to accept that this is an issue of "bad apples" in the DWP.  It has very much being a cunt-led operation, from James Purnell's time as minister, onward.  There may not be a written and quantified policy, but there often isn't, just general aims such as "reducing claims", and "making savings".  The modalities used to achieve them are passed down on a "nod and a wink" system.  I used to see this happen fairly often at the Home Office, when I worked in the Prisons Dept's head office.  "Bad apple" is as meaningless and as masking a term with regard to the DWP, as it is to the police service.  The only difference is that DWP workers are still resisting these practices becoming institutionalised, whereas the Old Bill long ago sucked down big gulps of Satan's jism, and accepted the institutional practices for which they are so beloved of the populace - the contempt, the violence, the criminality.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 5, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Very.
> 
> I've read too many accounts - on here from people like Fedayn ; on Benefits & Work's forums; on Facebook and on other disability fora - to accept that this is an issue of "bad apples" in the DWP.  It has very much being a cunt-led operation, from James Purnell's time as minister, onward.  There may not be a written and quantified policy, but there often isn't, just general aims such as "reducing claims", and "making savings".  The modalities used to achieve them are passed down on a "nod and a wink" system.  I used to see this happen fairly often at the Home Office, when I worked in the Prisons Dept's head office.  "Bad apple" is as meaningless and as masking a term with regard to the DWP, as it is to the police service.  The only difference is that DWP workers are still resisting these practices becoming institutionalised, whereas the Old Bill long ago sucked down big gulps of Satan's jism, and accepted the institutional practices for which they are so beloved of the populace - the contempt, the violence, the criminality.



Yep. I have helped too many people to think it's just a few bad apples. The way JSA sanctions are handled for instance, the letter about the sanction says that all your benefits may be stopped. So your HB gets stopped but nobody tells you that you can file a non-income claim and keep your HB and the info from JCP implies that you are losing all your benefits, so people end up on the street because they didn't know they could keep their HB.
That's not a bad apple, that's a centrally decided wording deliberately made vague to threaten people and try to fuck them over.

We could also talk about the way ESA/PIP questions are worded and how if you have a variable condition and are honest you won't get benefits - you already know this of course but for the benefit of matey here, lets look at one of the questions:

"can you walk 50m unaided?" (Can't remember if the distance varies but the phrasing of the question is the same). Well if I've got a variable condition, some days I can, some days I can't. Anserwing that question honestly, you would say yes, you can walk 50m unaided, even though there are times you can't. You won't get the benefit you need as a result. The question is clearly deliberately worded to get honest people to score zero points for that question. They could have said "are there times you cannot walk 50m unaided" and "how often is this" (in some form) but of course not, because that would give some nuance that would not allow them to reject as many people as they do.

Anyone with experience helping people in the benefits system, or navigating it themselves, knows how this is setup. There are still some good apples in the DWP/JCP and hope you get one of those, because if you get the ordinary/jobsworth rule follower you'll have problems, and if you get a bad apple you will be fucked (my local JCP, one advisor was responsible for over 50% of the JSA sanctions at that centre in 2014, we even got our local MP involved because of how over the top that particular advisor was. The most frustrating thing was she was a PCS member, and the PCS rep was SWP but still (reluctantly) supported her (as a union rep, not in terms of her actions, he didn't like it either) through this because of union membership, she never came out on the strikes obviously, and she wasn't removed from her job but she did get a little less trigger happy after our actions)


----------



## existentialist (Oct 5, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Very.
> 
> I've read too many accounts - on here from people like Fedayn ; on Benefits & Work's forums; on Facebook and on other disability fora - to accept that this is an issue of "bad apples" in the DWP.  It has very much being a cunt-led operation, from James Purnell's time as minister, onward.  There may not be a written and quantified policy, but there often isn't, just general aims such as "reducing claims", and "making savings".  The modalities used to achieve them are passed down on a "nod and a wink" system.  I used to see this happen fairly often at the Home Office, when I worked in the Prisons Dept's head office.  "Bad apple" is as meaningless and as masking a term with regard to the DWP, as it is to the police service.  The only difference is that DWP workers are still resisting these practices becoming institutionalised, whereas the Old Bill long ago sucked down big gulps of Satan's jism, and accepted the institutional practices for which they are so beloved of the populace - the contempt, the violence, the criminality.


There will, of course, be bad apples, and they probably are more prevalent within DWP than overall.

Because, if you're working for an outfit like that, you are likely to have, at some point, to make a choice between staying in your job and doing things you might feel ethically uncomfortable with, or go somewhere else where your conscience isn't being continually pricked. It doesn't take a genius to realise that this will create a tendency for the kind of people who have ethics and consciences to find work other than within DWP. That's not to say there won't be decent people working there, but the environment certainly mitigates to some extent against them.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 6, 2017)

existentialist said:


> but the environment certainly mitigates to some extent against them.



Then let's see some opinions of DWP employees about working for the DWP (815 reviews). These views are, without doubt, a lot more relevant and informed than some of the posters on here :

 As to be expected, there are some disgruntled employees, as there always are, but the DWP comes out smelling like roses as an employer, with 4 stars out of 5.

Working at Department for Work and Pensions (DWP): 815 Reviews | Indeed.com


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## existentialist (Oct 6, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Then let's see some opinions of DWP employees about working for the DWP (815 reviews). These views are, without doubt, a lot more relevant and informed than some of the posters on here :
> 
> As to be expected, there are some disgruntled employees, as there always are, but the DWP comes out smelling like roses as an employer, with 4 stars out of 5.
> 
> Working at Department for Work and Pensions (DWP): 815 Reviews | Indeed.com


And it doesn't occur to you that a self-selecting sample of employees of an organisation with an established reputation for oppressiveness might not be an entirely reliable survey?

Then again, I'm talking to someone who thinks that the DWP's own fraud figures are too low, so I've answered my own question


----------



## BigTom (Oct 6, 2017)

totally irrelevant. I bet the NAZIs were good employers but that doesn't mean the SS Waffen were nice towards the camp inmates does it.
/godwins


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## Fedayn (Oct 6, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> We cannot.
> 
> But fraud is only part of the problem. The people who are really adding to the suffering of those genuinely in need are those who diminish the welfare budget by claiming benefits quite legally, but who could easily get by without them. If only I had a pound for every time I've heard someone say "I've paid my taxes so why shouldn't I get something back?". Their sense of entitlement knows no bounds.



Could you explain this "The people who are really adding to the suffering of those genuinely in need"? What are you saying/claiming? That people who are entitled, legally speaking, to a benefit somehow, merely by their claiming a benefit they are legally entitled to, is at the detriment of someone, genuinely in need? How is that exactly? Where is your evidence? You are aware are you not, that there has never ever been one recorded case that someone incorrectly, either fraudulently or through misinformation, claiming a benefit has resulted in someone else not getting a benefit they are legally entitled to or as you say 'genuinely in need of'. So what are you trying to claim here?


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 6, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Then let's see some opinions of DWP employees about working for the DWP (815 reviews). These views are, without doubt, a lot more relevant and informed than some of the posters on here :
> 
> As to be expected, there are some disgruntled employees, as there always are, but the DWP comes out smelling like roses as an employer, with 4 stars out of 5.
> 
> Working at Department for Work and Pensions (DWP): 815 Reviews | Indeed.com



Well here's the opinion of a DWP employee and PCS rep, for the past 15 years, whether in the Pensions Service working on Minimum Income Guarantee or Pension Credit or in Income Support Changes or Income Support new claims and now in Universal Credit....
We are currently going through the annual staff survey, the annual staff 'engagement' which we read and ignore in minutes then come up with solutions to staff reoplies that have little if anything to do with the staff concerns. The survey this year is accompanied with a 'presentation' telling staff who they should complewte the survey, telling staff how they shouldn't put 'neither/not sure' as a reply to any questions even though it is an explicit choice (even though departmental guidance is explicit that this is not something staff should be asked/told), who are telling staff that they don't really work for the DWP but their wee/big office, and that any negativity is unfairly singling out their coplleagues in their office on higher grades. Negativity is not good for your office, negativity really reflects on you not senior DWP managers in London/Leeds/Sheffield etc. That we should remember the recent burger barbecue and cake sale as opposed to the increased stressers after being put on the phione for hours, staff roats being fucked up, after Xmas leave (for the last 4 years) being a fucking disaster year on year, coinciding, unsurprisingly, with the introduction of Universal Credit by the way. The same Universal credit that is day and daily being exposed as a disaster for claimants and staff alike. A benefit that is plunging already poor claimants into rent arrears on a scale never seen for those on benefits because of the actual benefit rules as opposed to mistakes or accidental/work delays.
 As for a self selecting surevey the DWP has a wonderful habit of lies damn lies etc.... As a union rep I got to meet former DWP permanent secretary Leigh lewis... After a staff survery the DWP headlined on our intranet (DWP internal internet) that staff confidence in senior leadership, ie cabinet level tops of the civil service, had increased by 25%. Now this was absolutely accurate, yes that year staffs confidence in the leadership of senior leadership had indeed jumped by 25%.... But the headline 'masked' the reality, it had gone from 12% confidence to 15%.... Indeed a rise of 25% on the previous year.... but the missing headline was that 85% of staff did not have confidence in senior leadership.... The DWP is good at those stats....
 Now I have no doubt that this years 'push poll' sorry, staff survey, will have an increae in positive replies but it masks the reality, staff being told that if they answer a questuion asking if they are proud to work for DWP they are in fact criticising themselves and their colleagues. That if they answer no to would you recommend a friend to work here they are criticising themselves and being negative about their colleagues. So the new survey will undoubtedly see changes, but behind the headlines the real story is never too far away....
 Incidentally the results of the staff survey will be finished and published before the xmas leave rotas are agreed and ratified, I remarked, in a meeting with a Grade 7 manager, hopw coincidental, a reply from another manager ws it was absolutely no coincidence.... Colour me surprised.... not


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 6, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Very.
> 
> I've read too many accounts - on here from people like Fedayn ; on Benefits & Work's forums; on Facebook and on other disability fora - to accept that this is an issue of "bad apples" in the DWP.  It has very much being a cunt-led operation, from James Purnell's time as minister, onward.  There may not be a written and quantified policy, but there often isn't, just general aims such as "reducing claims", and "making savings".  The modalities used to achieve them are passed down on a "nod and a wink" system.  I used to see this happen fairly often at the Home Office, when I worked in the Prisons Dept's head office.  "Bad apple" is as meaningless and as masking a term with regard to the DWP, as it is to the police service.  The only difference is that DWP workers are still resisting these practices becoming institutionalised, whereas the Old Bill long ago sucked down big gulps of Satan's jism, and accepted the institutional practices for which they are so beloved of the populace - the contempt, the violence, the criminality.



There are good and bad in any group of people/workplace/office etc. There are also people who work like trojans doing things you never see or hear about. Like staff who work unpaid hours/time to get a claimant paid. Like anywhere else that isn't news because a claimant is rightly paid so it's not something to talk about. DWP staff, through our main union are day and daily attacking DWP/Govt policies which are a detriment to claimanst and staff, we now see some ministers saying stop Universal Credit roll out, funnily enough PCS and staff have been saying this since the first day it was introduced, concerned MP's are well behind the curve so to speak.
The problem is with the bad/good apples argument is that in many ways it simply puts the blame for policy on individual civil servants who have little if any control of DWP regs/laws. It seeks to individualise blame as opposed to understanding that the entire policy was created not to help but to roll back welfare provision and attack claimants as scorungers etc and undermine staff terms and conditions as a prelude to reduindancies. PIP was brought in not to help people with disabilities but the cut the welfare bill, this is not some sneaky wee add on but the entire raison d'etre for this benefit replacing DLA



existentialist said:


> There will, of course, be bad apples, and they probably are more prevalent within DWP than overall.



Are there? You have the survey results I take it? You do understand that decisions made by indiiduals are not decided buy some abstract decision by a memebr of staff but with adherence to laws and regulations that limit, increasingly so, the ability of that staff memer to use their discretion?



> Because, if you're working for an outfit like that, you are likely to have, at some point, to make a choice between staying in your job and doing things you might feel ethically uncomfortable with, or go somewhere else where your conscience isn't being continually pricked.



Or you stay and fight rather than leave the department in the hands of greasy pole climbers, policy wonks, rats, shitebags etc... Or more likely, you stay there because you have a partner, family, kids, mortgage, rent bills etc that whilst it isn't what you wanted as a civil servant it is a job thay, most times, pays the bills



> It doesn't take a genius to realise that this will create a tendency for the kind of people who have ethics and consciences to find work other than within DWP. That's not to say there won't be decent people working there, but the environment certainly mitigates to some extent against them.



It does some but not all, the very fact that strikles are overwhelmingly supported when we go out. In my office the succession of office managers here routinely ask us why we bother with a picket line when we never have more that 10% who cross the line, ie 90% of staff in my office are in favour of those strikes that are always cogniscant of the damage to claimants the DWP policies are wreaking. Now don't get me worng we ain't perfect but there is no doubt that as a union/staff we have, in every step, attacked govt policies that damage and atack the very fabric of the welfare state, aye we don't always win but the point is important that we are not good/bad apples but staff who work in a highly politicised atmpsphere and do a job, we are normal people, whoo like the wider working class have too little control over our lives.

As an aside, I genuinely used to love my job, liked the poeple I have worked with, genuinely enjoyed the ability/discretion I had to backdate claims to give people a fw hundred quid extra, aye nothing in the scheme of things but it was something I had the ability/autonomy to do to make someones life that wee bit better. I've had cases whereby i've paid someone £5000.00 in backdated benefits because it was discovered they had been underpaid. I worked for a department that seemed determined, however limited by capital, to try and alleviate some of the wors excesses of poverty in society, that is long gone with Universal Credit not just on the horizon but here every fucking morning.....


----------



## existentialist (Oct 6, 2017)

Fedayn said:


> There are good and bad in any group of people/workplace/office etc. There are also people who work like trojans doing things you never see or hear about. Like staff who work unpaid hours/time to get a claimant paid. Like anywhere else that isn't news because a claimant is rightly paid so it's not something to talk about. DWP staff, through our main union are day and daily attacking DWP/Govt policies which are a detriment to claimanst and staff, we now see some ministers saying stop Universal Credit roll out, funnily enough PCS and staff have been saying this since the first day it was introduced, concerned MP's are well behind the curve so to speak.
> The problem is with the bad/good apples argument is that in many ways it simply puts the blame for policy on individual civil servants who have little if any control of DWP regs/laws. It seeks to individualise blame as opposed to understanding that the entire policy was created not to help but to roll back welfare provision and attack claimants as scorungers etc and undermine staff terms and conditions as a prelude to reduindancies. PIP was brought in not to help people with disabilities but the cut the welfare bill, this is not some sneaky wee add on but the entire raison d'etre for this benefit replacing DLA
> 
> 
> ...


I am not meaning to impugn staff in general in any organisation, let alone DWP. But I have worked in plenty of places where a toxic management style was responsible for the flight of staff who would otherwise have stayed, and it was, as a rule, the more idealistic staff, and the more competent ones, who tended to find it most necessary and possible (respectively) to leave. That isn't to say that everyone remaining is either morally bankrupt, or finding it impossible to get another job - there are many reasons for doing a particular job, and I have personal experience of at least one individual who works for DWP and, despite having some serious reservations about what they have to do, enjoys the fact that they are there to try and make life easier for the people they're there to look after; but I also know someone else personally who's currently off sick from the same employer, largely (but not entirely, TBF) because of the stress they experience working in a culture that treats them, in many ways, just as they are expected to behave towards claimants.

In either case, the fault lies squarely with the management - right up to the minister - for fostering a toxic work environment which forces people to have to make accommodations between their consciences and doing their job.

You'll have to take my word for it, but I really am not trying to suggest that all (or even most DWP) staff are complicit in what goes on. And I'm aware (and glad) of the work done by staff and unions to push back against that toxic work environment, and fight for the right to do a decent job in a fair way, and for claimants' right to be treated fairly, too.


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## Fedayn (Oct 6, 2017)

I'm not criticising you just pointing out that the good/bad apples is not a very useful term to use in terms of decisions made by staff because it reduces government policy as if it doesn't exist and elevates some kind of mythical individual decision making by staff to the key driver of decisions.


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## existentialist (Oct 6, 2017)

Fedayn said:


> I'm not criticising you just pointing out that the good/bad apples is not a very useful term to use in terms of decisions made by staff because it reduces government policy as if it doesn't exist and elevates some kind of mythical individual decision making by staff to the key driver of decisions.


Fair point. I was picking up on the "bad apples" term that had been used earlier, but I can see how it could have made it look as if that was what I was arguing towards.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 7, 2017)

Fedayn said:


> there has never ever been one recorded case that someone incorrectly, either fraudulently or through misinformation, claiming a benefit has resulted in someone else not getting a benefit they are legally entitled to or as you say 'genuinely in need of'. So what are you trying to claim here?



What on earth are you going on about?

I am sure that most people here know that we have an annual budget, of which Welfare spending is part. It is quite obvious that if we spend some of this budget on those not genuinely in need, then we will have less to spend on those who really need help.


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 7, 2017)

existentialist said:


> In either case, the fault lies squarely with the management - right up to the minister - for fostering a toxic work environment which forces people to have to make accommodations between their consciences and doing their job.



You're entitled to make stuff up and enjoy your own fantasies, but the 815 reviews from people who actually know what they're talking about, ie, ex employees and current employees of DWP, wouldn't have given the DWP 4 out of 5 stars if they found the DWP to be a "toxic work environment".


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## NoXion (Oct 7, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> You're entitled to make stuff up and enjoy your own fantasies, but the 815 reviews from people who actually know what they're talking about, ie, ex employees and current employees of DWP, wouldn't have given the DWP 4 out of 5 stars if they found the DWP to be a "toxic work environment".



And you believe the sample to be representative because... ?


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## existentialist (Oct 7, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> What on earth are you going on about?
> 
> I am sure that most people here know that we have an annual budget, of which Welfare spending is part. It is quite obvious that if we spend some of this budget on those not genuinely in need, then we will have less to spend on those who really need help.


Yes, dear,


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 7, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> What on earth are you going on about?
> 
> I am sure that most people here know that we have an annual budget, of which Welfare spending is part. It is quite obvious that if we spend some of this budget on those not genuinely in need, then we will have less to spend on those who really need help.



It is really very simple. people who have wrongly (either fraudulently or incorrectly) claimed a benefit has never at any time resulted in anyone who you see, as genuinely in need of help, from claiming or receiving any benefit. It really is that simple. In fact, whilst there has always been a notional cap on welfare spending, it was only a couple of years ago that then Chancellor, Gideon Osborne, actually put an actual verifiable cap on welfare spending.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 9, 2017)

NoXion said:


> And you believe the sample to be representative because... ?



And you believe a sample of 815 reviews is NOT representative because.....?

Er, perhaps because the vast majority of them do not agree with you?


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## NoXion (Oct 9, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> And you believe a sample of 815 reviews is NOT representative because.....?
> 
> Er, perhaps because the vast majority of them do not agree with you?


Ever heard of a thing called "selection bias"?

The sample of views you're offering is entirely self-selected. Do I need to spell it out for you, or can you fill in the gaps yourself?


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## existentialist (Oct 9, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> And you believe a sample of 815 reviews is NOT representative because.....?
> 
> Er, perhaps because the vast majority of them do not agree with you?


You might be stupid enough to use a tactic like that (or, for that matter, combing Google for something to prop up your claims), but most halfway intelligent people are going to know it's transparently obvious what's going on. And anyway, you've gone off on a bit of a sidetrack here, unless the main thrust of your argument is now that a contented DWP workforce somehow means that benefits claimants are not routinely and systematically being fucked over by the system.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 9, 2017)

NoXion said:


> Ever heard of a thing called "selection bias"?



Those who contributed were not selected, sunshine. You really should think before you post.


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## B.I.G (Oct 9, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Those who contributed were not selected, sunshine. You really should think before you post.



They must be evil then. You not got anything better to do than talk bollocks about those in need?


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## Happy Larry (Oct 9, 2017)

existentialist said:


> combing Google for something to prop up your claims



You were the one making claims i.e. that the employees of the DWP operated in a "toxic work environment".

I merely pointed out that the 815 reviews of the DWP by DWP employees proved that you were talking complete shite.


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## existentialist (Oct 9, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Those who contributed were not selected, sunshine. You really should think before you post.


Haha. Now actually GOOGLE "selection bias", you plum.


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## existentialist (Oct 9, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> You were the one making claims i.e. that the employees of the DWP operated in a "toxic work environment".
> 
> I merely pointed out that the 815 reviews of the DWP by DWP employees proved that you were talking complete shite.


Except it proves nothing. Thanks for playing.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 9, 2017)

existentialist said:


> Now actually GOOGLE "selection bias",



Who used Google?

So you've never heard of Indeed.com? Lol!


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Who used Google?
> 
> So you've never heard of Indeed.com? Lol!



Firk off.


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## NoXion (Oct 9, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Those who contributed were not selected, sunshine. You really should think before you post.



Yes they were. The kind of people who bother to go to a website and leave a review select themselves. Unless you're arguing that everyone who recently worked for the DWP left a review on that site.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2017)

NoXion said:


> Yes they were. The kind of people who bother to go to a website and leave a review select themselves. Unless you're arguing that everyone who recently worked for the DWP left a review on that site.



That'd mean 50,000-plus reviews, not less than a thousand, so if that's what "Happy Larry" was saying, it points up a surprising lack of employee participation.


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## existentialist (Oct 9, 2017)

NoXion said:


> Yes they were. The kind of people who bother to go to a website and leave a review select themselves. Unless you're arguing that everyone who recently worked for the DWP left a review on that site.


And it's worth pondering on whether satisfied employees are more or less likely to post on such a survey than those who are unhappy. Particularly given that civil servants are usually subject to quite draconian policies about criticising their employers, and given that DWP have something of a reputation as a somewhat oppressive employer.

People read far too much into surveys - there's a reason why outfits like MORI and IPSOS have complex processes to conduct the surveys they do, and it's about a lot more than inviting people to voluntarily offer their views - even if they randomly select people to survey, they have to take account of those who refuse to participate, in case the motive for the refusal might be statistically significant in terms of what's being surveyed for.

Not that we would expect the amoebic intellect of people like Flappy Harry to begin to comprehend any of that...


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## Happy Larry (Oct 10, 2017)

existentialist said:


> People read far too much into surveys



And people like yourself obviously find it very, very hard to swallow when the employees of the DWP themselves make nonsense of your silly claim that they work in a "toxic environment". The DWP has many hardworking and dedicated employees who don't deserve being criticised by whinging sour faces like yourself who actually have no idea at all what it is like to work there.


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## existentialist (Oct 10, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> And people like yourself obviously find it very, very hard to swallow when the employees of the DWP themselves make nonsense of your silly claim that they work in a "toxic environment". The DWP has many hardworking and dedicated employees who don't deserve being criticised by whinging sour faces like yourself who actually have no idea at all what it is like to work there.


I think I cover that point quite adequately in the remainder of the sentence you chose not to quote.

But we're going in circles. Ones which will almost certainly continue until your inevitable ban for trolling, or until I can't be bothered...oh! That moment has been reached.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 10, 2017)

existentialist said:


> I think I cover that point quite adequately in the remainder of the sentence you chose not to quote.



Happy Larry is blatantly a DWP management scumbag.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 11, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Happy Larry is blatantly a DWP management scumbag.



As usual, you couldn't be more wrong Panda. I have worked for myself since the age of 25.

We differ in that I don't believe a group of government employees should be insulted, as they have been here, just because the government that they work for doesn't hand money out right left and centre to anyone who wants some, but rather tries its best to ensure that assistance only goes to those in our population who are genuinely in need.


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## NoXion (Oct 11, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> And people like yourself obviously find it very, very hard to swallow when the employees of the DWP themselves make nonsense of your silly claim that they work in a "toxic environment". The DWP has many hardworking and dedicated employees who don't deserve being criticised by whinging sour faces like yourself who actually have no idea at all what it is like to work there.



You mean that *some* DWP employees have left some arse-licking reviews on some website, and that you're under the misapprehension that it somehow supports whatever asinine point you're making.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 11, 2017)

NoXion said:


> You mean that *some* DWP employees have left some arse-licking reviews on some website, and that you're under the misapprehension that it somehow supports whatever asinine point you're making.



Actually 815 reviews, sunshine. Not merely "some".

They certainly "support" the fact that there are many DWP employees who do not feel that they are working in a "toxic environment" and is certainly more credible reasoning than that of those who merely feel that the DWP does not do enough for them.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 11, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Actually 815 reviews, sunshine. Not merely "some".
> 
> They certainly "support" the fact that there are many DWP employees who do not feel that they are working in a "toxic environment" and is certainly more credible reasoning than that of those who merely feel that the DWP does not do enough for them.



815 out of however many thousands that the DWP employs, or has employed in the recent past, is not all that many, no matter how desperately you try to spin it.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 11, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Actually 815 reviews, sunshine. Not merely "some".
> 
> They certainly "support" the fact that there are many DWP employees who do not feel that they are working in a "toxic environment" and is certainly more credible reasoning than that of those who merely feel that the DWP does not do enough for them.


So. You shat all over the memorial thread for people affected by DWP, by banging on about policy, and now you're shitting all over a thread about benefits policy by banging on about staff satisfaction in the DWP.

You're either as thick as shit for believing the nonsense you're vomiting all over the boards, or you're just out to troll.

Your call.


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## existentialist (Oct 11, 2017)

NoXion said:


> 815 out of however many thousands that the DWP employs, or has employed in the recent past, is not all that many, no matter how desperately you try to spin it.


Whatever it is, it's not representative. But I don't think such trivialities concern twathead here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 11, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> As usual, you couldn't be more wrong Panda. I have worked for myself since the age of 25.
> 
> We differ in that I don't believe a group of government employees should be insulted, as they have been here, just because the government that they work for doesn't hand money out right left and centre to anyone who wants some, but rather tries its best to ensure that assistance only goes to those in our population who are genuinely in need.



Thanks for that, layabout.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 11, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Actually 815 reviews, sunshine. Not merely "some".
> 
> They certainly "support" the fact that there are many DWP employees who do not feel that they are working in a "toxic environment" and is certainly more credible reasoning than that of those who merely feel that the DWP does not do enough for them.



As I stated earlier, the DWP employs over 50,000 people.  For only 815 - less than 2% - of them to have participated, is the kind of response rate most surveyors would be DEEPLY unsatisfied by, given that the average return rate for employee surveys is around 20%.


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## Smoking kills (Oct 11, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> As I stated earlier, the DWP employs over 50,000 people.  For only 815 - less than 2% - of them to have participated, is the kind of response rate most surveyors would be DEEPLY unsatisfied by, given that the average return rate for employee surveys is around 20%.


Quite. I was advised that just sticking survey forms through random letter boxs with an SAE and small prize would yield around 5%. The survey was for my local community centre, we got around 40%.
Given the opportunities for skiving off/thinking about the question, taking the piss, £25 Amazon voucher or being listened to, the level of engagement should ring alarm bells, not be used as evidence that the DWP is a good place to work.
On topic, Universal Credit is due to crash into a lot of people soon. Increased awareness of the premium 'phone line associated with this fuck up could force the govt to concede the few million quid they and their mates get out of it, and make life a little bit easier for some of those people. 
Free the DWP helpline!


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 12, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> As I stated earlier, the DWP employs over 50,000 people. For only 815 - less than 2% - of them to have participated, is the kind of response rate most surveyors would be DEEPLY unsatisfied



Just love that bit of clutching at straws. Lol! A classic "Wot I reckon".


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 12, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> As usual, you couldn't be more wrong Panda. I have worked for myself since the age of 25.
> 
> We differ in that I don't believe a group of government employees should be insulted, as they have been here, just because the government that they work for doesn't hand money out right left and centre to anyone who wants some, but rather tries its best to ensure that assistance only goes to those in our population who are genuinely in need.



Who is genuinely in need, in your opinion?


----------



## NoXion (Oct 12, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Just love that bit of clutching at straws. Lol! A classic "Wot I reckon".



No reckoning necessary. Even a total dunce can see that 815 is a tiny fraction of 50,000.

Apart from you, apparently.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Just love that bit of clutching at straws. Lol! A classic "Wot I reckon".



It's not "clutching at straws", you gurning halfwit, it's first-hand knowledge of what those who commission surveys are after, and what those companies who create surveys *require* in order to justify their services.  A less than 2% response rate from staff, especially staff who have daily access to the DWP's intranet, is pathetic, rather like you.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 12, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not "clutching at straws", you gurning halfwit, it's first-hand knowledge of what those who commission surveys are after, and what those companies who create surveys *require* in order to justify their services.  A less than 2% response rate from staff, especially staff who have daily access to the DWP's intranet, is pathetic, rather like you.


Remember that this wasn't actually a proper survey, whatever Fappy Mary wants to believe, but unprompted feedback from self-selected people.


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 13, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> it's first-hand knowledge of what those who commission surveys are after, and what those companies who create surveys *require* in order to justify their services.



As usual Panda, you're making a mighty fool of yourself.

As even poor old Existentialist knows, and points out in his post above, it wasn't a survey at all. The reviews were made on a job search website.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 13, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> As usual Panda, you're making a mighty fool of yourself.
> 
> As even poor old Existentialist knows, and points out in his post above, it wasn't a survey at all. The reviews were made on a job search website.


Except that you are presenting them as some kind of meaningful statement on the attitudes of DWP staff in general, which is the point that VP is making.

I'd tell you to stop being a cunt, but I don't think you can help yourself.


----------



## doodlelogic (Oct 16, 2017)

Happy Larry is an IT contractor to the DWP aicm IR35 review.


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 16, 2017)

existentialist said:


> Except that you are presenting them as some kind of meaningful statement on the attitudes of DWP staff in general



Er no. As you know, the reason I presented them was to demonstrate that you are talking utter nonsense when you claim that DWP employees are working in a "toxic environment". Their mainly positive opinions regarding their work environment shows up your uninformed tripe.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 16, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Er no. As you know, the reason I presented them was to demonstrate that you are talking utter nonsense when you claim that DWP employees are working in a "toxic environment". Their mainly positive opinions regarding their work environment shows up your uninformed tripe.


Well, since it demonstrated nothing beyond your total inability to understand anything about surveys, I'd say you failed.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 16, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Er no. As you know, the reason I presented them was to demonstrate that you are talking utter nonsense when you claim that DWP employees are working in a "toxic environment". Their mainly positive opinions regarding their work environment shows up your uninformed tripe.



And we've already pointed out that those reviews are statistically insignificant and therefore don't prove shit. Even in the most awful workplaces you'll find some bumlicking greasy pole clamberer willing to trade their pride and dignity for the ghost of a chance of potential advancement.

Probably someone like you, who will make excuses for the rich and powerful.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 18, 2017)




----------



## existentialist (Oct 19, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


>


Good cartoon. And this clusterfuck, lest we forget is what our village idiot correspondent is insisting is all peachy and wonderful.


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 23, 2017)

NoXion said:


> who will make excuses for the rich and powerful.



I don't know how you define power, but as for the rich, why would they need to make excuses? They already contribute a massive amount to our economy :

"the tax base is very reliant on rich people, with income tax becoming increasingly reliant on them. 

The Resolution Foundation, which does a great deal of work on inequality, says that the income tax system is relying too much on the richest 10%, which is a problem because their earnings are volatile."

Reality Check: Are lower earners bearing the tax burden?


----------



## B.I.G (Oct 23, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> I don't know how you define power, but as for the rich, why would they need to make excuses? They already contribute a massive amount to our economy :
> 
> "the tax base is very reliant on rich people, with income tax becoming increasingly reliant on them.
> 
> ...



A "massive" amount. They can afford to pay more. The country needs more money. Let us tax them more. 

And if increases in income tax do only produce marginal gains, let the country tax them in other ways. 

Also you are a cunt. I wish poverty on you.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 23, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> I don't know how you define power, but as for the rich, why would they need to make excuses? They already contribute a massive amount to our economy :
> 
> "the tax base is very reliant on rich people, with income tax becoming increasingly reliant on them.
> 
> ...



If that really is the case, then that makes it all the more important to clamp down on tax-dodging corporations such as Google and Amazon.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 23, 2017)

The question needs to be asked: Who are The Resolution Foundation?  They're a centrist "independent" think-tank whose policy and research staff - a bit of assiduous googling will turn up articles and papers by them - are pretty much dedicated to maintaining the current economic "consensus", while doing a bit of ameliorationism to keep the poor and the "squeezed middle" on-side.  Their board is even more hilarious.  That's not to say that they don't turn out interesting stuff, but one needs to be aware of where this stuff originates from - "free" market-based _laissez faire_ economics.

I suspect that Happy Larry's googling is somewhat less assiduous, and is based on finding respectable-sounding stuff that supports his economic preconceptions.


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 24, 2017)

NoXion said:


> all the more important to clamp down on tax-dodging corporations such as Google and Amazon.



I would agree that we need to make sure everyone who makes use of a country's resources contributes to the taxman. But as taxes are reduced around the world, how do we define a tax haven? It is understandable why corporations choose to establish themselves in somewhere like Ireland (12,5% tax rate), Dubai or Hong Kong which are all great places to live and work.

Is the UK now a tax haven considering it has corporation tax rates approximately half that of the USA?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 24, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> I would agree that we need to make sure everyone who makes use of a country's resources contributes to the taxman. But as taxes are reduced around the world, how do we define a tax haven? It is understandable why corporations choose to establish themselves in somewhere like Ireland (12,5% tax rate), Dubai or Hong Kong which are all great places to live and work.
> 
> Is the UK now a tax haven considering it has corporation tax rates approximately half that of the USA?



You're either disingenuous or stupid.  This isn't about Corporation Tax, it's about UK banks facilitating the moving of monies around a net of tax havens in despite of legislation not to, effectively "laundering" hundreds of billions of pounds a year of dubiously-gained money.


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 25, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> it's about UK banks facilitating the moving of monies around a net of tax havens



Absolute nonsense. By and large, most banks merely do what their clients instruct them too as long as it is legal. There are rogue bankers, just as there are those who act badly in all areas of society/business. I realise that many people want to blame the banks if they catch a cold....they are the Socialists whipping dogs for almost everything. The reasons vary but it's mostly about the 1) democratic right of owners of corporations to base themselves where they please. Obviously, those countries that can offer lower tax rates will be first in line. 2) Transfer pricing. Why shouldn't Google/Apple etc charge their overseas branches for research and development incurred by them at their country of origin?

I feel that tax should be charged in particular to those corporations that charge interest to a branch in the UK knowing that such interest will be tax free in the country that originates the charge. They are doing nothing illegal but it grates that they are getting it both ways. However, at least they are taxed indirectly when making a sale, which some people seem to forget.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Absolute nonsense. By and large, most banks merely do what their clients instruct them too as long as it is legal. There are rogue bankers, just as there are those who act badly in all areas of society/business. I realise that many people want to blame the banks if they catch a cold....they are the Socialists whipping dogs for almost everything. The reasons vary but it's mostly about the 1) democratic right of owners of corporations to base themselves where they please. Obviously, those countries that can offer lower tax rates will be first in line. 2) Transfer pricing. Why shouldn't Google/Apple etc charge their overseas branches for research and development incurred by them at their country of origin?
> 
> I feel that tax should be charged in particular to those corporations that charge interest to a branch in the UK knowing that such interest will be tax free in the country that originates the charge. They are doing nothing illegal but it grates that they are getting it both ways. However, at least they are taxed indirectly when making a sale, which some people seem to forget.



You know what's really amusing, Larry?

It's watching someone regurgitate stuff featured in _The Economist_, with a few bits of anti-socialism thrown in.  Grow up, and/or expand your reading to include something that isn't chosen because it conforms to your preconceptions.

Alternately, you could do everyone a favour and stop shitting up threads with your anile "economics" rants.


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 27, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's watching someone regurgitate stuff featured in _The Economist_,



....I don't read The Economist, toothless Panda.

If you can't understand simple economics, then simply ignore my posts.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 27, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> ....I don't read The Economist, toothless Panda.
> 
> If you can't understand simple economics, then simply ignore my posts.


Oh look, it's Lairy's Daily Dump.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 27, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> ....I don't read The Economist, toothless Panda.
> 
> If you can't understand simple economics, then simply ignore my posts.



I understand simple and complex economics just fine - far better than your own one-dimensional understanding, it appears.  

Now, please stop shitting up this thread with your right wing bollocks, there's a good slime mould.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 15, 2017)

GAP property management /lettings group (I assume social housing) letter to tenants warning of problems with Universal Credit and starting eviction process in anticipation of people not being able to pay rent whilst they move over from HB to UC


Is there a UC rollout clusterfuck thread? This was always going to be bad but back when I was involved in trying to stop UC before it started I didn't think it would be this bad.

e2a: Grimsby Telegraph article about this: Grimsby tenants in eviction threat if Universal Credit delayed


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 15, 2017)

BigTom said:


> GAP property management /lettings group (I assume social housing) letter to tenants warning of problems with Universal Credit and starting eviction process in anticipation of people not being able to pay rent whilst they move over from HB to UC
> 
> 
> Is there a UC rollout clusterfuck thread? This was always going to be bad but back when I was involved in trying to stop UC before it started I didn't think it would be this bad.



IDS having the cheek to carp about this now because 'hammond raided the pot' is something else


----------



## teqniq (Nov 16, 2017)

A landmark study has linked Tory austerity to 120,000 deaths


----------



## chainsawjob (Nov 16, 2017)

teqniq said:


> A landmark study has linked Tory austerity to 120,000 deaths


 (can't 'like' that, but cheers for posting.) Balanced analysis I thought.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 27, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> I don't know how you define power, but as for the rich, why would they need to make excuses? They already contribute a massive amount to our economy :
> 
> "the tax base is very reliant on rich people, with income tax becoming increasingly reliant on them.
> 
> ...



I'm sure most people earning below the income tax threshold would rather be earning above it. And most of them would actually pay their tax, not offshore their way round it like the rich all do.


----------



## Happy Larry (Nov 28, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> like the rich all do.



A massive generalisation there about a particular group of people, and consequently a very stupid one.

How do you feel about those who make critical generalisations about other groups such as black people or Moslems?


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 28, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> A massive generalisation there about a particular group of people, and consequently a very stupid one.
> 
> How do you feel about those who make critical generalisations about other groups such as black people or Moslems?



This is not the place for your trolling. Have some respect.


----------



## chainsawjob (Nov 28, 2017)

Inquiry into disability benefits 'deluged' by tales of despair

3000 submissions to the enquiry, including many from people saying the process of applying for PIP or ESA made their health worse, or even made them suicidal.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 28, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> A massive generalisation there about a particular group of people, and consequently a very stupid one.
> 
> How do you feel about those who make critical generalisations about other groups such as black people or Moslems?



Time for the opening lines of my favourite song by The Only Ones, I believe:

Why don't you kill yourself,
you ain't no use to no-one else...


----------



## Libertad (Nov 28, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> A massive generalisation there about a particular group of people, and consequently a very stupid one.
> 
> How do you feel about those who make critical generalisations about other groups such as black people or Moslems?



Who will think of the rich?


----------



## editor (Dec 8, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> A massive generalisation there about a particular group of people, and consequently a very stupid one.
> 
> How do you feel about those who make critical generalisations about other groups such as black people or Moslems?


My patience - and my 'reported posts' inbox- is getting bored with your antics. Continuing trolling at your peril.


----------



## Silas Loom (Dec 8, 2017)

It _is_ silly, though, and untrue, to say that all rich people use offshore ploys to avoid tax. Equating the suggestion to racism is silly as well, of course.


----------



## Happy Larry (Dec 10, 2017)

Silas Loom said:


> t _is_ silly, though, and untrue, to say that all rich people use offshore ploys to avoid tax.



Of course it is. Wrongdoing is not confined to a particular income group, as some here seem to think.



Silas Loom said:


> Equating the suggestion to racism is silly as well, of course.



Bigotry and demonisation of a group of people is wrong, plain and simple. Nelson Mandela, in particular, would be horrified at such generalisations about groups of people, whether race based, income based or any other base used by the bigot making it.


----------



## Libertad (Dec 10, 2017)

Another powerful piece here by Kitty S Jones, worth a read. You may care to read it Happy Larry with a view to educating yourself.

Conservative MPs accuse citizens of ‘scaremongering stories’ about experiences of Universal Credit.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 10, 2017)

Libertad said:


> Another powerful piece here by Kitty S Jones, worth a read. You may care to read it Happy Larry with a view to educating yourself.
> 
> Conservative MPs accuse citizens of ‘scaremongering stories’ about experiences of Universal Credit.


Crappy Harry knows all this stuff! How do you think he's able to craft his posts for maximum annoyance?


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 11, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Of course it is. Wrongdoing is not confined to a particular income group, as some here seem to think.
> 
> 
> 
> Bigotry and demonisation of a group of people is wrong, plain and simple. Nelson Mandela, in particular, would be horrified at such generalisations about groups of people, whether race based, income based or any other base used by the bigot making it.



And of course, there's your bigotry and demonisation of people on welfare. Don't forget that.


----------



## Happy Larry (Dec 11, 2017)

krtek a houby said:


> And of course, there's your bigotry and demonisation of people on welfare. Don't forget that.



Quoting a single instance of where I have ever done this, would be nice, krytek the porky pie teller.


----------



## Happy Larry (Dec 11, 2017)

editor said:


> My patience - and my 'reported posts' inbox- is getting bored with your antics.



You know, and I know, that you are pandering to your constituency here. The "reported posts" are solely because some here think that this website should be a place where only left-wing or extreme left wing people come to nod heads with each other, and who are "outraged" that someone should post opinions here that reflect the views of a majority of British voters. I post my views on other political forums without receiving any censure. Admittedly, they are nowhere near as left wing as this one, which reason being the main reason that I enjoy posting here, as exchanging opinions with those one disagrees with is far more interesting, in my opinion, than nodding heads with the likeminded.

You need to take a good look at yourself and your website. If you don't want views aired here that reflect the majority in the UK, which I believe mine do, then you need to make this clear on your site.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 11, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Quoting a single instance of where I have ever done this, would be nice, krytek the porky pie teller.



.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 11, 2017)

Hmm. That didn't work proper. I'll just c&p then, Larry

_"Why not just stop playing the victim and feeling sorry for yourself, pull your finger out, and do something for yourself instead of continually expecting others to provide for you?"

"Socialism favours the lazy at the expense of the hardworking."

"There would be more money available for the genuinely needy if people stopped claiming benefits when they could quite easily get by without them. And Labour supporters are the main culprits, in my opinion."
_
And it's krtek, not krytek. You arrogant plum.


----------



## editor (Dec 11, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> You need to take a good look at yourself and your website. .


I really don't, thanks. It's doing just fine, with or without you, as Bono Twatface wold say.


Happy Larry said:


> If you don't want views aired here that reflect the majority in the UK, which I believe mine do, then you need to make this clear on your site.


This site makes no claims to represent the majority opinion: in fact, that's one of the reasons it exists.

if you don't like it, then pop off to the Daily Mail forums where you'll find a sympathetic audience. As for us, weeelll I'm sure we'll manage to get along fine without you.


----------



## Happy Larry (Dec 14, 2017)

editor said:


> This site makes no claims to represent the majority opinion



Er, I didn't say it did. I questioned whether you want a site where majority views are also expressed, or whether, as it seems, you prefer only views of the left and extreme left to be aired here.



editor said:


> As for us, weeelll I'm sure we'll manage to get along fine without you.



I am sure that you will feel far more comfortable nodding heads with the likeminded. Should you decide to ban myself, due to your regulars dislike of majority views being expressed here, then I will get along fine without you too, but I will miss engaging with Socialists, Communists and those with minority viewpoints, as I know of no other forum where such views are so prominent.


----------



## editor (Dec 14, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Er, I didn't say it did. I questioned whether you want a site where majority views are also expressed, or whether, as it seems, you prefer only views of the left and extreme left to be aired here.


There is no policy about what gets posted here, but a site representing the kind of 'mainstream opinion' you seem to support would look very much like Daily Mail readers' comments, and they're fucking depressingly full of racism, xenophobia, homophobia, 'I'm all right Jack-isms' and the inane drivel spouted by bigoted right wing dullards.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 14, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Er, I didn't say it did. I questioned whether you want a site where majority views are also expressed, or whether, as it seems, you prefer only views of the left and extreme left to be aired here.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure that you will feel far more comfortable nodding heads with the likeminded. Should you decide to ban myself, due to your regulars dislike of majority views being expressed here, then I will get along fine without you too, but I will miss engaging with Socialists, Communists and those with minority viewpoints, as I know of no other forum where such views are so prominent.



Plenty of views available here. But stupid, provocative, trolling right wit fuckery tends to be frowned upon. Especially on a thread such as this.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Dec 14, 2017)

Happy Larry, you've been asked several times, on this thread and others, which people in your opinion are genuinely deserving of benefits.  An answer would be nice.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 15, 2017)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Happy Larry, you've been asked several times, on this thread and others, which people in your opinion are genuinely deserving of benefits.  An answer would be nice.


There's far more shitz'n'giggles to be had from throwing out vague assertions than from being honest and clear about their claims.


----------



## Happy Larry (Dec 20, 2017)

editor said:


> and the inane drivel spouted by bigoted right wing dullards



As opposed to the inane drivel spouted by some left wing dullards, that is posted here?

You are obviously falling into the trap of being abusive and critically labelling people merely because you differ with their opinions. No doubt emboldened because many share your views on this website. Views that, in my opinion, are bigoted and not generally popular in the UK.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Dec 20, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> As opposed to the inane drivel spouted by some left wing dullards, that is posted here?
> 
> You are obviously falling into the trap of being abusive and critically labelling people merely because you differ with their opinions. No doubt emboldened because many share your views on this website. Views that, in my opinion, are bigoted and not generally popular in the UK.



On the current evidence, your opinions are just assertions unleavened by critical thinking. There's no debate, because there's little to grip. And what's the alleged popularity (or otherwise) of a viewpoint got to do with the exploration of ideas?


----------



## Happy Larry (Dec 20, 2017)

eatmorecheese said:


> On the current evidence, your opinions are just assertions unleavened by critical thinking.



Nonsense. You're just bitter because I, and most of the UK, do not follow your extreme views.



eatmorecheese said:


> And what's the alleged popularity (or otherwise) of a viewpoint got to do with the exploration of ideas?



Lol! So this site is all to do with "the exploration of ideas". Now that has to win the "most pompous post of the month award". 

Why not return to the subject of the thread, which is far more deserving of everyone's time than festering over my opinions?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Dec 20, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Nonsense. You're just bitter because I, and most of the UK, do not follow your extreme views.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What are my views, then? Go on.

Yes, pompous. Game recognise game


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 20, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> As opposed to the inane drivel spouted by some left wing dullards, that is posted here?
> 
> You are obviously falling into the trap of being abusive and critically labelling people merely because you differ with their opinions. No doubt emboldened because many share your views on this website. Views that, in my opinion, are bigoted and not generally popular in the UK.









Did you meet coconutjob on his way out, btw? He took over trolling duties from you, the last several days.

As regards the topic, do you think views regarding welfare cuts and povery are extremist? Have you experienced poverty yourself? Is it bigoted to rail against the ills inflicted by your govt on its people?


----------



## editor (Dec 20, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> As opposed to the inane drivel spouted by some left wing dullards, that is posted here?
> 
> You are obviously falling into the trap of being abusive and critically labelling people merely because you differ with their opinions. No doubt emboldened because many share your views on this website. Views that, in my opinion, are bigoted and not generally popular in the UK.


Please give some examples of these "bigoted" left wing views that frequently appear here.  Time to back up your assertions please.


----------



## editor (Dec 20, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Nonsense. You're just bitter because I, and most of the UK, do not follow your extreme views.


What "extreme views" are those?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Dec 20, 2017)

editor said:


> What "extreme views" are those?



I know, right? Does this golf ball know me or something?


----------



## existentialist (Dec 21, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> As opposed to the inane drivel spouted by some left wing dullards, that is posted here?
> 
> You are obviously falling into the trap of being abusive and critically labelling people merely because you differ with their opinions. No doubt emboldened because many share your views on this website. Views that, in my opinion, are bigoted and not generally popular in the UK.


Oh, you're back.

How delightful.


----------



## Happy Larry (Dec 23, 2017)

editor said:


> Please give some examples of these "bigoted" left wing views that frequently appear here.



No problem. Just a few posts up from yours is one where all rich people are said to be tax cheats. Posts don't get more bigoted than that. Maybe you "missed" it :



SpookyFrank said:


> And most of them would actually pay their tax, not offshore their way round it like the rich all do.



How much more extreme and bigoted does it get than generalising about the readers of one of the UK's most popular newspapers as follows :



editor said:


> a site representing the kind of 'mainstream opinion' you seem to support would look very much like Daily Mail readers' comments, and they're fucking depressingly full of racism, xenophobia, homophobia, 'I'm all right Jack-isms' and the inane drivel spouted by bigoted right wing dullards.



Daily Mail readers are mainly working class people. Why insult them and label them, as you have, merely because they may more against excessive immigration than left - wingers are,  more concerned than left - wingers are about islamic terrorism in the UK or feel more strongly about those who take advantage of our welfare system?

It is not necessary to demonise a large group of people merely because you disagree with their political views.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 23, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> No problem. Just a few posts up from yours is one where all rich people are said to be tax cheats. Posts don't get more bigoted than that. Maybe you "missed" it :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What, you mean the way you do whenever you talk about "the left"?


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 24, 2017)

Leaping to the defence of the Daily Heil.

Mask slips, shark jumped. Fuck the horrors of welfare cuts - it's clearly the DM readership that's suffering.


----------



## OzT (Dec 28, 2017)

.


----------



## yield (Jan 24, 2018)

Nearly half of all children in London, Birmingham and Manchester live in poverty, finds study
24/01/18


> Now the latest figures, collated by the End Child Poverty coalition through analysis of tax credit data and national trends in worklessness, estimate that child poverty in Manchester and Birmingham stands at 44 per cent and 43 per cent respectively. In the London borough of Tower Hamlets this reaches 53 per cent.
> 
> When broken down into constituencies, the figures indicate that Bethnal Green and Bow in London has the highest child poverty rate at 54 per cent, while in Ladywood in Birmingham 53 per cent are living in poverty. Among the 20 parliamentary constituencies with the highest levels of childhood poverty, seven are located in London, three in Birmingham and three in Manchester.


Disgusting


----------



## Horus Snacks (Jan 30, 2018)

Hello,

So it turns out that Esther McVey is on the advisory board of the Samaritans.

Our advisory board


----------



## Chilli.s (Jan 30, 2018)

Isn't she well used to cutting corners that would present a risk of serious personal injury. Sounds qualified.


----------



## Horus Snacks (Jan 30, 2018)

Chilli.s said:


> Isn't she well used to cutting corners that would present a risk of serious personal injury. Sounds qualified.


She's happy to see people kill ourselves. She's fucking purest evil. 

I've used the Samaritans. Did so last year. It was fucking bad enough having to stand outside where everyone could see me banging on the door (a bar is opposite the entracne, and the entrance has Samaritans iconography all over so it's obvious what you're doing). I wouldn't use them again (YMMV) after this. 

It's the volunteers I feel sorry for. They want to help and don't deserve to be abused by Tory cunts


----------



## existentialist (Jan 30, 2018)

Horus Snacks said:


> Hello,
> 
> So it turns out that Esther McVey is on the advisory board of the Samaritans.
> 
> Our advisory board


Well, I imagine she will be uniquely well informed on at least one of the major drivers of suicide in the UK


----------



## panpete (Jan 31, 2018)

Horus Snacks said:


> Hello,
> 
> So it turns out that Esther McVey is on the advisory board of the Samaritans.
> 
> Our advisory board


OMG you couldn't make this shit up.
I think it was Ken Loache who implied that the government had factored suicides into the austerity programme, but he didn't use those words, and without sounding big-headed, I said the same thing a few years ago, and i did use the words 'factored in'


----------



## Horus Snacks (Feb 1, 2018)

Mental Health support is completely compromised now. Mind has already been co opted, Paul Farmer doesn't give a shit. Who's left?


----------



## crossthebreeze (Mar 9, 2018)

This happened to someone i know last week during the heavy snow. The person doesn't have internet at home, and doesn't have a smartphone, but the jobcentre insist on communicating with them on through an online message system. When they get a message in their inbox, they get a text message which tells them this but not the content of the message. The jobcentre has told them that they need to check their messages promptly or risk a sanction. They got a text message, and walked through the snow to the community centre where they can usually use a computer, but it was shut. They then did a 2 mile route during a snowstorm of the nearest local library, another community project, the council offices - each time finding they were closed - ending up in town where the central library was open but they had to wait in a queue for a computer. When they finally logged on the message was that the jobcentre was closed because of snow and so they didn't need to go to job club that afternoon!


----------



## NoXion (Mar 9, 2018)

Fucking hell. Why can't the Jobcentre/DWP actually phone them or send a text?


----------



## BigTom (Mar 9, 2018)

Yeah, shouldn't be any problem with an automated text system, probably doesn't happen because of the slight cost of text messaging, and of course gives more opportunity to sanction people who are already more vulnerable in some way that means they have limited internet access


----------



## RobotHyper (Mar 17, 2018)

I am against the welfare cuts.  Are you are sure you can live off £57.90?  I don’t know what is on the TV.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 17, 2018)

RobotHyper said:


> I am against the welfare cuts.  Are you are sure you can live off £57.90?  I don’t know what is on the TV.


A good bit of advice for new users is to have a bit of a read of the threads you're posting to, and get a sense of what's already being talked about, before just posting onto them. It tends to make it look a bit more like you are interested in/care about the community you've just joined.


----------



## Pwerus (Mar 17, 2018)

There's always the idea of getting together a petition. I don't think the government would listen to it even if it got thousands of signs, but it would put pressure on them to think twice before their next cut.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 17, 2018)

Pwerus said:


> There's always the idea of getting together a petition. I don't think the government would listen to it even if it got thousands of signs, but it would put pressure on them to think twice before their next cut.



There have been petitions. Hell, I've even signed a few myself. They've all been ignored.


----------



## RobotHyper (Mar 24, 2018)

At £57.90 if your microwave breaks then that’s the end of you (£80 a microwave).  Or if you need to do a return journey in a taxi for a distance of 30mins (£60 return 30 min taxi), then that’s the end of you.  I skimmed through the 131 pages a long thread.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2018)

Quelle fucking surprise!!

Benefit sanctions found to be ineffective and damaging


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 22, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Quelle fucking surprise!!
> 
> Benefit sanctions found to be ineffective and damaging



I'm sure we can expect the sanctions regime to be reversed any day now


----------



## existentialist (May 22, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Quelle fucking surprise!!
> 
> Benefit sanctions found to be ineffective and damaging


And, again, the DWP's response looked like they weren't even trying - "Oh, some of our claimants reckon sanctions are REEEEEELY grate, true story".


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2018)

> * Esther McVey misled MPs over universal credit, says watchdog *
> 
> Head of National Audit Office says the welfare secretary misinterpreted its report
> 
> Esther McVey misled MPs over universal credit, says watchdog





Serious stuff, Esther McVey accused of misleading parliament by National Audit Office, due to make a statement to the house after PMQ's.


----------



## Toast Rider (Jul 4, 2018)

treelover said:


> Serious stuff, Esther McVey accused of misleading parliament by National Audit Office, due to make a statement to the house after PMQ's.


Yes the language used seems, to my untrained eyes, about as serious as it gets, and as its formal the actual sentiment behind it is likely to be even more intense.

I doubt McVey will sack her, and even if she did nothing would change.


----------



## treelover (Jul 5, 2018)

Labour now calling for her to resign.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 5, 2018)

Toast Rider said:


> Yes the language used seems, to my untrained eyes, about as serious as it gets, and as its formal the actual sentiment behind it is likely to be even more intense.
> 
> I doubt McVey will sack her, and even if she did nothing would change.


I don't think she'll be sacked, because what she is doing is 100% in furtherance of party policy. She did a "sorry if I got caught and it pissed you off", but there wasn't an ounce of remorse in what she said.

Moral vacuum - not just her but the whole lot of them.


----------



## Toast Rider (Jul 5, 2018)

McVey is just a grubby delboy type who buys into all the Tony Robbins self made man bullshit. All she's good for is flogging Get Rich Quick ebooks online or on QVC. Now she's in charge of destroying people's lives because May had to give a Brexiter a position. Politics in Britain is a joke. 

Even so, she won't be hearing the truth about life on benefits. She'll only hear what the civil service tells her. For this report to have made it this far shows just how much of a fucking catastrfuck Universal Credit is. But, again, even so, the case studies she will hear about, or go to visit, will be the selected few; the minority of probably relatively easy cases where people aren't drowing in debt or slowly starving in their wheelchairs.

Structural violence thy name is Universal Credit


----------



## Toast Rider (Jul 6, 2018)

Just had a phone interview with a 'work coach' and now I feel like shit. What a crew of cunts the DWP are.


----------



## Toast Rider (Jul 21, 2018)

Someone on FB in a benefits group I'm part of posted a link to a clip of Anna Soubry on the 'Last Leg'. Therein she talks about how she's disgusted with the whole capita/atos process. The usual blah blah blah from well meaning Tories.

I say well meaning, because in truth it just wound me up. All it did was a) allow her to score some kudos with the audience and self aggrandize, and b) promote the deserving/undeserving poor rhetoric that, crucially, was ignored and unchallenged.

Without addressing the structural and ideological basis her claims that she's going to talk to Esther McVey and bring up how disgusting she finds it is meaningless. Of course she's going to do nothing of the kind.

This is the same Esther McVey who regards the welfare state as a car salesman regards the latest (insert brand or model) vehicle on the forecourt.

The same McVey who's in a relationship with Phillip fucking Davies of all people. Because of course they are!

Soubry's voting record speaks for itself; she voted against any support for people and any rise for claimants, even in line with inflation.

Fuck everything.


----------



## Ralph Llama (Aug 12, 2018)

I once had it from the horses mouth when they `cut me off`(no housing benefit or JSA) for being naughty. 

She was the manager of Llandrindod Wells Job Centre in mid Wales. She was flabbergasted that I was being persecuted in this way(unheard of at the time ... about 2004) for educating the unemployed about A4E and there connections with the ongoing Palestinian genocide as well as pointing out the obvious slavery elements of work for your welfare.

When I asked her about the Job Centre staff and what is it exactly that they are employed to do, whilst pointing out that I had seen many people desperate for help given disinformation by staff, she said

"They are employed to prevent people getting benefits they are entitled to"


----------



## Toast Rider (Aug 15, 2018)

Ralph Llama said:


> I once had it from the horses mouth when they `cut me off`(no housing benefit or JSA) for being naughty.
> 
> She was the manager of Llandrindod Wells Job Centre in mid Wales. She was flabbergasted that I was being persecuted in this way(unheard of at the time ... about 2004) for educating the unemployed about A4E and there connections with the ongoing Palestinian genocide as well as pointing out the obvious slavery elements of work for your welfare.
> 
> ...


I got threatened with sanctions on the Work Programme years back. Wouldn't give them a copy of my CV (offered to show it to them). Was told they had to have it to ring employers and aply for jobs on my behalf. Their head office later told me that's not their policy. Just bullshit all round; they wanted it to score some hits and have the adviser make a name for himself, the cunt.


----------



## treelover (Sep 14, 2018)

Probably the most significant meeting on disability and benefits in many many years, initiated by John MCardle Black Triangle Campaign , coordinated by John McDonell, five shadow ministers in attendance, and most of the long term anti-welfare reform campaigners/activists(those who could get there) They are meeting again in five weeks.

Hope for major social security ‘brutality’ campaign after ‘breakthrough’ Labour meeting


----------



## treelover (Sep 14, 2018)

> Another theme was the need to hold Conservative politicians such as Iain Duncan Smith and Chris Grayling to account for the decisions they made within DWP in 2010 that many believe led to the deaths of claimants of out-of-work disability benefits.



Some of the issues are going to be quite radical if confronted.


----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 19, 2018)

FOI request from disability campaigner forces DWP to give statistics for deaths of ESA claimants:

DWP forced to admit more than 111,000 benefit deaths


----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 19, 2018)

DWP has 80% target (KPI) for upholding the original decision at Mandatory Reconsideration stage (unsurprisingly).

DWP 'has secret target to reject 80 per cent of benefit appeals'


----------



## crossthebreeze (Sep 19, 2018)

Liked for the efforts of campaigners and journalists to obtain the information - not the actual statistics which are horrendous.


----------



## treelover (Sep 23, 2018)

* Welfare spending for UK's poorest shrinks by £37bn *
Figures compiled after decade of austerity and obtained by Frank Field show most striking cuts are in disability benefits

Patrick Butler Social policy editor




Field said the cuts were behind increases in food bank use and destitution. Photograph: Leon Neal/Getty Images
Spending on welfare benefits for the UK’s poorest families will have shrunk by nearly a quarter after a decade of austerity, according to new figures highlighting the plunge in living standards experienced by the worst-off.

By 2021, £37bn less will be spent on working-age social security compared with 2010, despite rising prices and living costs, according to estimates produced by the House of Commons library.

Welfare spending for UK's poorest shrinks by £37bn


----------



## existentialist (Sep 23, 2018)

treelover said:


> * Welfare spending for UK's poorest shrinks by £37bn *
> Figures compiled after decade of austerity and obtained by Frank Field show most striking cuts are in disability benefits
> 
> Patrick Butler Social policy editor
> ...


Scumbags. Because they pretend that nothing has changed.


----------



## treelover (Sep 24, 2018)

> *Greenwood says Labour would scrap Tories' benefits sanctions regime*
> *Margaret Greenwood,* the shadow work and pensions secretary, told the Labour conference in her speech this afternoon that Labour would scrap the Tories’s benefits sanctions regime (the set of rules that lead to claimants losing benefits if they fail to comply with conditions, such as attending interviews or looking for work). She told delegates:
> 
> We know that the majority of people want to work. But we know too that the sanctions regime is failing.
> ...



Guardian Politics lIve


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2018)

treelover said:


> Guardian Politics lIve


but what do you think?


----------



## treelover (Sep 25, 2018)




----------



## teqniq (Oct 7, 2018)

What the actual fuck?

Tory conference: Charity’s silence on universal credit deaths, hours after minister announces £51m funding



> ...A DWP spokeswoman confirmed today (Thursday) that the funding of £39 million was for just one year, “with a review at the end”.
> 
> But she also appeared to confirm that the contracts signed by the charities includes a clause preventing them from attracting “adverse publicity” to the department or to McVey herself, as in contracts signed by some of the disability charities who have signed up to deliver services as part of DWP’s new Work and Health Programme.
> 
> ...


----------



## existentialist (Oct 7, 2018)

teqniq said:


> What the actual fuck?
> 
> Tory conference: Charity’s silence on universal credit deaths, hours after minister announces £51m funding


And, just to be perfectly clear about it, the charity is "Citizens Advice".

I would have hoped they'd have had more of a sense of moral purpose. I'm going to feel a lot less comfortable about advising clients to get advice from them about their dealings with DWP now - and can't help thinking that £51m was a pretty cheap price to pull the teeth of an organisation better placed than most to rip DWP a new one.


----------



## treelover (Oct 7, 2018)

teqniq said:


> What the actual fuck?
> 
> Tory conference: Charity’s silence on universal credit deaths, hours after minister announces £51m funding




I was suspecting this, many charities are already co-opted by running services, etc, i think CA has been gagged before., 

John McDonnell says universal credit needs to be scrapped

Good news, though, John Mc comes out robustly against Universal credit, wish Corbyn would be as vocal about it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2018)

treelover said:


> I was suspecting this, many charities are already co-opted by running services, etc, i think CA has been gagged before.,
> 
> John McDonnell says universal credit needs to be scrapped
> 
> Good news, though, John Mc comes out robustly against Universal credit, wish Corbyn would be as vocal about it.


Yeh always knocking Corbyn, nó matter what he says



Vocal enough for you?


----------



## existentialist (Oct 7, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh always knocking Corbyn, nó matter what he says
> 
> 
> 
> Vocal enough for you?



He can't hear it over the sound of wringing hands.


----------



## treelover (Oct 7, 2018)

Anyway, good strategic move, Labour can say how is austerity ending when people are losing so much on U/C?, Labour can and will end austerity, he can say.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2018)

treelover said:


> Anyway, good strategic move, Labour can say how is austerity ending when people are losing so much on U/C?, Labour can and will end austerity, he can say.


Catch yourself on


----------



## existentialist (Oct 7, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Catch yourself on


I think the Labour Party is most fortunate to have such a skilled and able adviser in the shape of our very own treelover. One almost wonders how, with such adept assistance, they have struggled in the polls for so long.


----------



## treelover (Oct 8, 2018)

what on earth is wrong with that, grow up, plenty of posters postulate political strategy on this site, some more than others, i stick to what i know about.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 8, 2018)

treelover said:


> what on earth is wrong with that, grow up, plenty of posters postulate political strategy on this site, some more than others, i stick to what i know about.


Did I say that there was anything wrong with it? That wasn't the point I was making at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2018)

treelover said:


> what on earth is wrong with that, grow up, plenty of posters postulate political strategy on this site, some more than others, i stick to what i know about.


((((treelover)))) that's the saddest thing I've read in a long long time 

existentialist


----------



## RedStag (Oct 12, 2018)

the best idea would be to get rid of working tax credits - in this way the working poor will be independent and the State will be able to stop subsidising low paying employers


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2018)

RedStag said:


> the best idea would be to get rid of working tax credits - in this way the working poor will be independent and the State will be able to stop subsidising low paying employers


no, the best idea would be to end low pay

next


----------



## RedStag (Oct 12, 2018)

ending low pay means creating unemployment, do you really want that?


----------



## existentialist (Oct 12, 2018)

RedStag said:


> ending low pay means creating unemployment, do you really want that?


----------



## NoXion (Oct 13, 2018)

RedStag said:


> ending low pay means creating unemployment



I don't believe that is the case.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 13, 2018)

Charities working with universal credit claimants required to 'sign contracts to protect Esther McVey's reputation'


----------



## RedStag (Oct 14, 2018)

Corbyn - he'll just let in millions more immigrants to lower wages and destroy any chance of people having somewhere to live  - where's he going to house all these folk or pay for it?


----------



## Libertad (Oct 14, 2018)

RedStag said:


> Corbyn - he'll just let in millions more immigrants to lower wages and destroy any chance of people having somewhere to live  - where's he going to house all these folk or pay for it?



Your house.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 14, 2018)

RedStag said:


> Corbyn - he'll just let in millions more immigrants to lower wages and destroy any chance of people having somewhere to live  - where's he going to house all these folk or pay for it?


Ah. I think what we have here is someone Posting For Effect. 

Happy with how it's going so far?


----------



## Libertad (Oct 14, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Ah. I think what we have here is someone Posting For Effect.
> 
> Happy with how it's going so far?



They need to try harder, minimal effort - minimum effect.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2018)

RedStag said:


> ending low pay means creating unemployment, do you really want that?


you'd adorn any dole queue


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2018)

Libertad said:


> They need to try harder, minimal effort - minimum effect.


Gigo


----------



## RedStag (Oct 14, 2018)

and Libertad, how's he actually going to manage to do that?

ie. how is Corbyn going to house the immigrants in my house


----------



## Ground Elder (Oct 14, 2018)

He's going to kick you out first.


----------



## RedStag (Oct 14, 2018)

how and for what reason?


----------



## Libertad (Oct 14, 2018)

RedStag said:


> how and for what reason?



Our local friendly PD cadre will make use of our trusty hickory handles for no other reason save that you're a cunt.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 17, 2018)

Thousands of Brits set for £1bn in benefits after government gaffe

Bit of a different piece of news here - there's nearly £1bn in ESA benefits that didn't get paid out when it should have done and claimants could be entitled to around £5k if they were claiming from 2011 - present. Everything I know is in that article and the key bit looks to be:



> The blunder emerged when officials discovered some people transferring to ESA from an older system were put on the "contributory", not the "income-based" system.
> 
> This meant they had been missing out on payments such as the severe disability premium, which is worth £62.45 per week.
> 
> Around 18,000 claimants have already been handed £120million in back payments - averaging about £7,000 each.



So if you know anyone who transferred to ESA and were put on the contributory not income based system please let them know to contact the DWP to find out if they are entitled to backpayments!


----------



## A380 (Oct 22, 2018)

Ground Elder said:


> He's going to kick you out first.


And give them a telly bigger than RS ever had.


----------



## yield (Nov 23, 2018)

Poorest dying nearly 10 years younger than rich in 'deeply worrying' trend, study shows
November 22, 2018


> The poorest groups in society are dying almost a decade earlier than the richest, new research shows, prompting concern that welfare cuts and a rising cost of living are leaving the most vulnerable “out of the collective gain”.
> 
> The study by academics at Imperial College London revealed the life expectancy gap between the most affluent and most deprived sections of society increased from six years in 2001 to eight years in 2016 for women, and from nine to 10 years for men.





> Women in the most deprived communities in 2016 lived until an average 79 years old, compared with 87 years in the most affluent group, while for men, the life expectancy was 74 years among the poorest, compared with 84 years among the richest.
> 
> The findings, published in the journal Lancet Public Health, also reveals that the life expectancy of England’s poorest women has fallen in the last seven years – having dropped by three months since 2011.
> 
> Child mortality rates were also considerably higher among deprived communities, with poorer children two-and-a-half times more likely to die before they reach adulthood than their peers from affluent families.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Nov 27, 2018)

Women launch legal challenge to 'irrational' universal credit system 


> Four women have launched a high court legal challenge to universal credit, arguing that an arbitrary design flaw in the payment system for the new benefit is “irrational and discriminatory” and leaves some families hundreds of pounds a year worse off.
> 
> They say the flaw, which relates to the way universal credit monthly payments are calculated, disproportionately affects working parents with children, though it is likely to affect tens of thousands of people claiming the benefit.
> 
> ...


----------



## yield (Dec 4, 2018)

Unacceptable rises in child poverty as more working parents left unable to make ends meet 
04/12/18


> The assessment comes in a state of the nation report by the independent Joseph Rowntree Foundation (JRF), the leading authority on poverty in the UK. UK Poverty 2018 examines how poverty has changed over the last 20 years, providing the most comprehensive and up to date picture of the challenges and prospects facing low income families.
> 
> Overall, one in five of the UK population (22%) are in poverty - 14.3 million people. Of these, 8.2 million are working-age adults, 4.1 million are children and 1.9 million are pensioners. Eight million people live in poverty in families where at least one person is in work.
> 
> In-work poverty has been rising even faster than employment, with nearly all of the increase among working parents. There are now four million workers in poverty, around one in eight in the economy.


----------



## treelover (Dec 14, 2018)

Shameless Tories pose for photos at food banks while plunging UK into poverty

Truly truly no shame, 

Oh, and we will have less from Liam Byrne, does he not forget he helped bring in many of the most brutal welfare reforms.


----------



## yield (Dec 14, 2018)

Average UK workers earning a third less than in 2008 – report
Fri 14 Dec 2018


> Wages are still worth a third less in some parts of the country than a decade ago, according to a report.
> 
> Research by the Trades Union Congress (TUC) found that the average worker has lost £11,800 in real earnings since 2008.
> 
> ...


----------



## Southlondon (Dec 14, 2018)

Welfare revolt in Corbyn Country: Why Islington voted to scrap Universal Credit


----------



## treelover (Dec 16, 2018)

Some horrendous cases there, it is also hitting the 'deserving poor'*, those in work,etc 

how the media see them, not my term.


----------



## yield (Dec 21, 2018)

There’s a national emergency all right – but it isn’t Brexit
20/12/18. Aditya Chakrabortty


> As another vote looms amid the pantomime of Westminster, the core issues behind leave’s win have been ignored


----------



## yield (Dec 26, 2018)

Revealed: legal aid cuts forcing parents to give up fight for children
26/12/18


> Deep cuts to legal aid have inflicted such disarray in family courts that parents are abandoning efforts to maintain contact with their children, the Guardian has been told, while one of the main architects of the austerity measures has admitted they are “draconian”.
> 
> Protracted austerity since 2012 has reduced funding by about £950m a year in real terms, causing an alarming rise in the number of people forced to represent themselves.
> 
> The number of people receiving legal aid has fallen more than 80% in eight years. Critics say the result is unnecessary conflict and stress, and unsatisfactory justice.


80%. Isn't it just?


> Thomas, the former lord chief justice, who now chairs the Commission on Justice in Wales, said: “We have to restore advice and representation, otherwise we are undermining the rule of law. Without legal aid, people are being deprived of access to justice. I don’t believe there’s any judges these days who are not worried as to what has happened as result of Laspo.
> 
> “What saved the courts from chaos is that [the government also] cut police funding. If you restored funding to the police and they caught and prosecuted more [suspects], the courts would be in desperate trouble.”


Maybe Extinction Rebellion were right they could flood the courts and break it?


----------



## Libertad (Dec 27, 2018)

yield said:


> Maybe Extinction Rebellion were right they could flood the courts and break it?



The justice system is already broken.


----------



## treelover (Dec 30, 2018)

Ref, OP, was there ever a large scale campaign against welfare cuts and poverty? can't seem to recall one, response largely food banks.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 30, 2018)

treelover said:


> Ref, OP, was there ever a large scale campaign against welfare cuts and poverty? can't seem to recall one, response largely food banks.


Shocking, I call it. All these people sitting around, wringing their hands, and waiting for someone else to do something.

So, what have *you* been doing?


----------



## 8115 (Jan 7, 2019)

Need to sign on? You'll have to walk 24 miles to the jobcentre


----------



## chainsawjob (Jan 10, 2019)

If anyone has had DLA/PIP stopped because of 'failing to attend a face to face assessment without good reason' (as I have), there's going to be a review of these cases because they fucked up (thankfully my situation was put right by taking it to appeal and I got DLA reinstated)...



> The latest review is necessary because of an upper tribunal ruling in the case of a claimant moving from disability living allowance (DLA) to personal independence payment (PIP) who had his DLA stopped because he had failed to attend an Atos face-to-face assessment.
> 
> The upper tribunal found that the claimant, OM – who had long-standing psychosis, and became agitated and aggressive around people he did not know – had “good reason” for not attending the PIP assessment that the government contractor Atos had told his wife he would have to attend in one of its London centres.
> 
> The upper tribunal found that OM should have his DLA reinstated until a final decision was made on his PIP claim, while he should also receive backdated payments from the date DWP stopped his DLA.



Bungling DWP announces seventh review of disability benefits errors in a year


----------



## Edie (Jan 25, 2019)

Would you please watch and share this short film made by five women from Leeds about what it’s like living in poverty and fighting shame.

These are inspirational ladies, all of them doing amazing things in their community, and their voices really deserve to be heard.

It’s just been released today.

Ty


----------



## Edie (Jan 25, 2019)

Honestly just re-watched it since the screening this afternoon and seeing those hungry little kids at the lunch club is dreadful. The women at that church are doing good things.

One of the women featured is a young lass who isn’t out of her teens and she’s set up this charity to collect & distribute cleaned and pressed second hand school uniform to kids in need. She washes and irons it in her own home. Amazing young woman to do that while being a single Mum:


----------



## 8115 (Jan 25, 2019)

Edie said:


> Would you please watch and share this short film made by five women from Leeds about what it’s like living in poverty and fighting shame.
> 
> These are inspirational ladies, all of them doing amazing things in their community, and their voices really deserve to be heard.
> 
> ...



Thanks, this is very interesting and thought-provoking.


----------



## Libertad (Feb 4, 2019)

Will they ever stop doing this to people? 

DWP apologises for telling seriously ill man to find a job

Poor fucker.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Feb 4, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Will they ever stop doing this to people?
> 
> DWP apologises for telling seriously ill man to find a job
> 
> Poor fucker.




That's awful 
Poor man..


----------



## existentialist (Feb 4, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Will they ever stop doing this to people?
> 
> DWP apologises for telling seriously ill man to find a job
> 
> Poor fucker.


I fail to see in their statement


> “We are sorry for the experience Mr Smith has had and we are committed to ensuring that people with health conditions get the support they’re entitled to.
> 
> “Following the independent tribunal’s ruling, he is now receiving full ESA support. While Mr Smith continued to receive benefits and support during his appeal, we can confirm he will shortly receive all back payments for ESA due.”


anything to suggest that anyone in the chain of command, up to and including the minister responsible at the time this decision was taken, will be experiencing any kind of sanction or punishment proportionate to the suffering they needlessly inflicted on this man.

Words are cheap.


----------



## treelover (Feb 7, 2019)

Appalling, but again, where is the resistance?, where is this chaps Stansted 15, history will look back on this neo-victorian time and progessive society will be found wanting.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 8, 2019)

treelover said:


> Appalling, but again, where is the resistance?, where is this chaps Stansted 15, history will look back on this neo-victorian time and progessive society will be found wanting.


*sigh* And this hectoring will achieve what, exactly?


----------



## yield (Feb 8, 2019)

Age UK: 50,000 elderly have died waiting for social care package
Wed 6 Feb 2019


> Age UK estimated that 54,000 people – or 77 a day – have died while waiting for a care package in the 700 days since the government first said in March 2017 it would publish its social care green paper, which has since been delayed several times.
> 
> The claim came as a cross-party group of MPs warned that the government was “in denial” about the perilous state of English local authority finances – a crisis driven by a growing demand for the care of vulnerable adults and children.


----------



## treelover (Feb 20, 2019)

Some robust action against U/C, 24 hour hunger strike outside Parliament.


----------



## treelover (Feb 21, 2019)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Crippled-Austerity-Demonization-Disabled-People/dp/178663788X

Guardian Writer Dr Frances Ryan is being out a book about the demonisation of the sick and disabled, hope it cover the New Labour years


----------



## yield (Feb 27, 2019)

UK hunger survey to measure food insecurity
Wed 27 Feb 2019


> The government is to introduce an official measure of how often low-income families across the UK skip meals or go hungry because they cannot afford to buy enough food, the Guardian can reveal.
> 
> A national index of food insecurity is to be incorporated into an established UK-wide annual survey run by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) that monitors household incomes and living standards.
> 
> Campaigners, who have been calling for the measure for three years, said the move was “a massive step forward” that would provide authoritative evidence of the extent and causes of hunger in the UK. They say food insecurity is strongly linked to poverty caused by austerity and welfare cuts and is driving widening health inequality.


----------



## yield (Mar 8, 2019)

Life expectancy falls by six months in biggest drop in UK forecasts 
Thu 7 Mar 2019


> British adults’ life expectancy has been cut by six months in the biggest reduction in official longevity forecasts.
> 
> The Institute and Faculty of Actuaries, which calculates life expectancy on behalf of the UK pension industry, declined to speculate on why longevity is deteriorating for men and women in England and Wales. Some analysts, however, blame austerity and cuts in NHS spending, others point to worsening obesity, dementia and diabetes.


----------



## Mrs Wiggles (Apr 6, 2019)

With regards to the thread. It is my belief that our benefit system is far to generous, and is costing the hard working tax payer far to much. If your lucky enough to have a disability, or are a good enough actor, your going to be rolling in it.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 6, 2019)

Clown alert.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2019)

Mrs Wiggles said:


> With regards to the thread. It is my belief that our benefit system is far to generous, and is costing the hard working tax payer far to much. If your lucky enough to have a disability, or are a good enough actor, your going to be rolling in it.


Haha, 0/10.


----------



## Mrs Wiggles (Apr 6, 2019)

*


existentialist said:



			Haha, 0/10.
		
Click to expand...


Socialist alert, Socialist alert. 

I can give you numerous examples of people of people living better on benefits than those people who work hard and offer society something, as well as paying taxes. The country is now a result of Blair's incompetence, and the lazy attitude of so many. *


----------



## Mrs Wiggles (Apr 6, 2019)

yield said:


> Age UK: 50,000 elderly have died waiting for social care package
> Wed 6 Feb 2019



So let's get this right. You claim that 77 people a day are dying as a result of government cuts. Whilst I find this figure totally unbelievable, I would suggest that in a country with a population of 67m, losing so many people who offer society nothing  can only be considered a good thing.


----------



## 8115 (Apr 6, 2019)

Mrs Wiggles said:


> So let's get this right. You claim that 77 people a day are dying as a result of government cuts. Whilst I find this figure totally unbelievable, I would suggest that in a country with a population of 67m, losing so many people who offer society nothing  can only be considered a good thing.


editor is it too early for a ban?


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2019)

Mrs Wiggles said:


> So let's get this right. You claim that 77 people a day are dying as a result of government cuts. Whilst I find this figure totally unbelievable, I would suggest that in a country with a population of 67m, losing so many people who offer society nothing  can only be considered a good thing.


And off you fuck you pitiful wretch.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 8, 2019)

Mrs Wiggles said:


> So let's get this right. You claim that 77 people a day are dying as a result of government cuts. Whilst I find this figure totally unbelievable, I would suggest that in a country with a population of 67m, losing so many people who offer society nothing  can only be considered a good thing.


You probably thought  in typing this you were  being brave as well, tiresome boring cunt.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 13, 2019)

DWP to restore benefits of disabled woman it called 'lying bitch'


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 26, 2019)

teqniq said:


> DWP to restore benefits of disabled woman it called 'lying bitch'


Even by the standards of the DWP, that's a new despicable low.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 26, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Even by the standards of the DWP, that's a new despicable low.


And that's saying quite something...


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 26, 2019)

existentialist said:


> And that's saying quite something...


Yes, sadly.


----------



## Chilli.s (Apr 29, 2019)

teqniq said:


> DWP to restore benefits of disabled woman it called 'lying bitch'


Isn't that libel?  I know it's way below professional.


----------



## yield (Jun 2, 2019)

Austerity to blame for 130,000 ‘preventable’ UK deaths – report
01/06/19


> More than 130,000 deaths in the UK since 2012 could have been prevented if improvements in public health policy had not stalled as a direct result of austerity cuts, according to a hard-hitting analysis to be published this week.
> 
> The study by the Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) thinktank finds that, after two decades in which preventable diseases were reduced as a result of spending on better education and prevention, there has been a seven-year “perfect storm” in which state provision has been pared back because of budget cuts, while harmful behaviours among people of all ages have increased.
> 
> Had progress been maintained at pre-2013 rates, around 131,000 lives could have been saved, the IPPR concludes. Despite promises made during the NHS’s 70th birthday celebrations last year to prioritise prevention, the UK is now only halfway up a table of OECD countries on its record for tackling preventable diseases.


----------



## campanula (Jun 11, 2019)

Have been turfed off ESA because of a change in circumstances (youngest offspring leaving home so I have to claim HB). 5 weeks with no money and dealing with an adversarial system which is so twisted, it is prepared to humiliate, bully and undermine people who are already beaten down with illness and anxiety...and yet there seems to be no end of funding for an endless number of scamming 'employment support companies such as Pinnacle People (whoever the useless fuck they might be). Massively suspicious with the over-comfortable relationship between Citizen's Advice and DWP. They seem uncommonly free with sharing information...ostensibly, for 'support'...but colour me cynical. Despite asking NOT to be contacted by phone, have been called by CA already, completely unprompted.


----------



## Jackobi (Jun 13, 2019)

campanula said:


> Despite asking NOT to be contacted by phone, have been called by CA already, completely unprompted.



Are you certain that it was CA, as it is rare that they call anyone unless explicit consent is given? There are a number of scam calls claiming to be from CA when they are not.


----------



## campanula (Jun 13, 2019)

Jackobi said:


> Are you certain that it was CA, as it is rare that they call anyone unless explicit consent is given? There are a number of scam calls claiming to be from CA when they are not.



Well, I saw her at the DWP where she introduced herself. I admit, I was staggered at this reciprocal 'support' thing going on since I had always thought CAB were somewhat independent of the govt. line ...so when she rang up and said, 'Hello, this is R...from CAB', what was I to think? I said I was fine, didn't need any help and was not going speak to anyone over the phone because it freaks me out (I didn't answer, my friend did and passed the phone on).


----------



## treelover (Jul 13, 2019)

> * Crippled by Frances Ryan review – how disabled people have been demonised *
> A powerful polemic, full of telling details, on how government cuts have ruined the lives of disabled people. But is anybody listening?
> 
> 
> Crippled by Frances Ryan review – how disabled people have been demonised



Important new book by Francis Ryan who writes about benefits, cuts, poverty, etc, in the Guardian.

I wonder if it will have the same impact Chavs had, both in terms of coverage and impact.


----------



## treelover (Jul 20, 2019)

> 77 years on from the Beveridge Report, with poverty and inequality running rampant, it is clear that we need a new social contract with the British people. But what might it look like?
> 
> First, we need to develop consensus across the country on what our social security system should be for. Attitudes are shifting, but the mainstream media’s shirker scrounger rhetoric still needs to be comprehensively challenged. What we want from a new social security system must be evidence-based, and yet that evidence needs to be driven not just by data but by all of us, ensuring the principle of ‘nothing about us, without us’. That’s why I’m delighted that an expert-user-led commission on social security chaired by Ellen Clifford was launched at the end of May. Alison McGovern’s Make Ends Meet campaign is another excellent example of identifying alternative evidence-based solutions.
> 
> ...



New thinking from Debbie Abrahams, former shadow DWP secretary,

and er, Liam Byrne

https://liambyrnemp.co.uk/LiamByrneDraftManifesto.pdf

Why isn't any of this coming from the far left, momentum, etc, too dour for them?


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 21, 2019)

Still sounds like neoliberal bullshit.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 21, 2019)

treelover said:


> New thinking from Debbie Abrahams, former shadow DWP secretary,
> 
> and er, Liam Byrne
> 
> ...


Why do you ask? This may be a rhetorical question


----------



## 8115 (Jul 23, 2019)

This is criminal.

Poor universal credit advice costs claimants thousands, MPs say


----------



## existentialist (Jul 23, 2019)

8115 said:


> This is criminal.
> 
> Poor universal credit advice costs claimants thousands, MPs say


It is.


----------



## treelover (Aug 5, 2019)

> * Blame the scroungers. Blame the migrants. How Britain fell for austerity *
> 
> John Harris
> A swathe of public opinion has turned cruel. ‘They just don’t give a shit,’ a woman who’s been living on the streets told me
> ...



Very good John harris article, 'austerity populism', gets it right


----------



## treelover (Nov 5, 2019)

> Food banks: 'I hung around outside, embarrassed to go in'





> The first time Donna Kennedy visited a food bank, she hung around outside for 20 minutes, gathering courage to go in.
> 
> Once a health worker, Donna, from Maghera, Londonderry, could not earn after a series of mini-strokes.
> 
> ...



and millions are going to vote for these creatures, many poor themselves.


----------



## Cloud (Nov 12, 2019)

I had my pittance of money stopped in February. I've never been this badly too lol, in bed for two fkn years, anyway they said i had to go to ATOS medical so i took some smack (hate it dont do it) because it was only way i could get to medical mentally and cos the pain was crippling. So i guess i marched in there like Noel Gallagher and completely fucked it up.
Now i'm totally fucked. No food , no gas, impossible to even go out for more than 30 mins so no absolutely no chance of working, I wish ffs
SO i honestly don't know what happens is the tribunal says bollocks. Suicide i guess, better than starving to death. It's genocide for some tbh.


----------



## BigTom (Nov 12, 2019)

Cloud said:


> I had my pittance of money stopped in February. I've never been this badly too lol, in bed for two fkn years, anyway they said i had to go to ATOS medical so i took some smack (hate it dont do it) because it was only way i could get to medical mentally and cos the pain was crippling. So i guess i marched in there like Noel Gallagher and completely fucked it up.
> Now i'm totally fucked. No food , no gas, impossible to even go out for more than 30 mins so no absolutely no chance of working, I wish ffs
> SO i honestly don't know what happens is the tribunal says bollocks. Suicide i guess, better than starving to death. It's genocide for some tbh.



 do you have any organisational support to help you with the appeal/tribunal process?


----------



## crossthebreeze (Nov 12, 2019)

Fucking hell, that's a rough situation.  Really hope your tribunal goes as it should do.  Put as much evidence in as you can.  If your appeal doesn't go your way and you've had a worsening of your condition or a new condition since the original decision (which wouldn't be surprising given the circumstances - stress and poverty not exactly health-promoting) you could maybe reapply for benefits (but again you'll need some decent advice to do this).  Which benefits was it ESA/Universal Credit or DLA/PIP or something else - I'll try to find relevent links if I know what to look for.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 20, 2019)

Osborne is a cheeky fucker.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 29, 2020)

Another person murdered by the Tories. Fuck them and all the scumbags who voted for them. 









						Errol Graham death: Nottingham man starved after benefits stopped
					

Errol Graham weighed four-and-a-half stone when bailiffs found his body in his council flat.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## teqniq (Apr 4, 2020)

A word of caution:


----------



## teqniq (Apr 14, 2020)

As if by magic



from


----------



## teqniq (May 2, 2020)

Unsure where best to put this. Pretty amazing thread unrolled here, covers welfare cuts, austerity, the cynical weaponisation of antisemitmsm, the last primarily from a Jewish perspective. Worth a read.









						Thread by @shaunjlawson: Sorry, I'm not deleting the tweet. I stand by it. And I'm going to explain precisely why. For the last 10 years, Britain has suffered contin…
					

Thread by @shaunjlawson: Sorry, I'm not deleting the tweet. I stand by it. And I'm going to explain precisely why. For the last 10 years, Briffered continually under a government which has punished the poor, the disabled, the sick, the weak. And laid was…




					threadreaderapp.com


----------



## 8115 (May 29, 2020)

Incidentally, does nobody else wonder about them raising the amount of UC? Almost as if they were suddenly worried too many people would find out it's not enough to live on?


----------



## belboid (May 29, 2020)

8115 said:


> Incidentally, does nobody else wonder about them raising the amount of UC? Almost as if they were suddenly worried too many people would find out it's not enough to live on?


Not ESA tho, not even letting you prescription charges (if you’re still on contribution based). Almost as if they wanted to push you onto UC.


----------



## 8115 (May 29, 2020)

belboid said:


> Not ESA tho, not even letting you prescription charges (if you’re still on contribution based). Almost as if they wanted to push you onto UC.


I would think you're better off staying on ESA even with the raise.


----------



## belboid (May 29, 2020)

8115 said:


> I would think you're better off staying on ESA even with the raise.


My thoughts entirely.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 29, 2020)

Well no surprises here:









						DWP refuses to extend sanction ban. Jobcentres to reopen this week putting thousands at risk of contracting Covid 19.
					

As we know benefit sanctions were suspended three months at the beginning of the pandemic in March. This was exactly the right thing to do during a pandemic even though I believe that they should b…




					thepoorsideof.life


----------



## NoXion (Aug 28, 2020)

*What* fucking jobs, you callous lumps of Tory filth?! Many businesses are still shuttered, and quite a few of them might never open their doors again.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 20, 2020)

please sign and share









						Petition: Review the Personal Independence Payment (PIP) application process.
					

Ensure that PIP applications are completed fairly by appropriately trained medical staff by government agencies. Ensure that "decision makers" awarding PIP are accountable. Reintroduce lifetime awards where appropriate. Ensure decisions are correct the first time they are made.




					petition.parliament.uk


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 7, 2021)

This may possibly be useful: 


Scouse Solfed also have some decent guides: Coronavirus: Information for claimants


----------



## teqniq (Jan 7, 2021)

Please sign and share:









						Petition: Legislate to BAN leasehold houses & set ground rents of new-build flats to ZERO
					

Suffering leaseholders have endured endless consultations & years of failed reforms. Government must fulfil the promises made in 2017 to legislate to:  1. BAN leasehold houses 2. Restrict all ground rents on new leases to ZERO 3. Enact ALL of the Law Commission proposals




					petition.parliament.uk


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 4, 2021)

Not 100% sure where this fits best so might as well go here: Call for participants: Housing rights for women courses in South West and North West England - Law for Life



> *Call for participants: Housing rights for women courses in South West and North West England*
> 
> We are delighted to announce that we are able to deliver two more housing rights courses this Spring. These courses will be held online, are free to participants, and are funded by the Ministry of Justice.
> 
> ...


----------



## Serene (Jul 5, 2021)

Gove said that kids should get part time jobs, and that they could go and work on a building site after school.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> Gove said that kids should get part time jobs, and that they could go and work on a building site after school.


I'm not quite as ready to take your pronouncements at face value as I was...


----------



## Serene (Jul 5, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I'm not quite as ready to take your pronouncements at face value as I was...


This is why the Tories have to go. He said that the poor always have too many pets and also mobile phones which they dont need.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> This is why the Tories have to go.


We didn't need more REASONS!


----------



## NoXion (Jul 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> Gove said that kids should get part time jobs, and that they could go and work on a building site after school.



Source?


----------



## existentialist (Jul 5, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Source?


Let's just say...it doesn't get a lot of sunshine *taps nose


----------



## Serene (Jul 5, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Source?


OK I made it up.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> OK I made it up.



Don't do that. The Tories get up to enough evil, there's no need to lie.


----------



## Serene (Jul 5, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Don't do that. The Tories get up to enough evil, there's no need to lie.


OK then.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

*serious blood pressure warning*




Not sure I can adequately imagine a painful enough demise for this thick, nasty cunt.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 8, 2021)

He's a weird, extremist Pinochet fan. Just been reading his wikipedia page. You don't get much more rotten than that bastard.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> He's a weird, extremist Pinochet fan. Just been reading his wikipedia page. You don't get much more rotten than that bastard.


One of thickest vermin, possibly in the top 1?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> *serious blood pressure warning*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where to start with this bullshit.

The obvious: UC is _their_ baby. They introduced it claiming that it would, amongst other things, bring fairness to the taxpayer. Aside from that being propaganda it implies that the people who receive it _need it._ But of course that's not enough for these cunts because even if you satisfy the criteria to receive it, onerous enough, which _they created_ for _their _system - to this cunt that is _still_ not enough. Now you have to justify getting this 'bonus'. "Do they _really need it"?_ Clearly the answer is FUCK YES (as do legacy claimants who don't even get that and the labour clown fails again to stand up for us). But that's even by their own standards which, again, _they created!_

Fuck this shit.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> *serious blood pressure warning*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In a way, I'm glad that successive Tories keep coming out with these clunkers. It reminds us all just how little they and we have in common.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> *serious blood pressure warning*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thing is, there a few tens of millions in this country who will agree with him.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2021)

8ball said:


> Thing is, there a few tens of millions in this country who will agree with him.


Sadly, there are only slightly more than half that number of lamp posts in the UK. Bugger


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

8ball said:


> Thing is, there a few tens of millions in this country who will agree with him.


Well...I'm not totally convinced about that, tbh.
In electoral terms, even in a 'landslide victory' the vermin could only persuade 14m to actively vote for their programme of negative solidarity towards those in need.
And some recent YG polling (reasonably decent sample) commissioned by the Fabians showed evidence that your assumption about the hegemonic hold over your fellow citizens might not be as secure as you fear:



I know there's plenty of cunts out there who've had their naturally antisocial worldview reinforced by hegemonic forces, but I'm not convinced its 'tens of millions' or believing that actually does us any great favours?


----------



## 8ball (Jul 8, 2021)

Yeah, people say things that make them sound nice in surveys and then everyone scratches their head about why they vote like total cunts.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

8ball said:


> Yeah, people say things that make them sound nice in surveys and then everyone scratches their head about why they vote like total cunts.


Yeah, I get that...but even in the 2019 GE, only 29% of those who could vote actually did so for the cunts.
Maybe I've been struck down by an uncharacteristic wave of positivity for my fellow men...maybe it's the footie effect?


----------



## 8ball (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, I get that...but even in the 2019 GE, only 29% of those who could vote actually did so for the cunts.
> Maybe I've been struck down by an uncharacteristic wave of positivity for my fellow men...maybe it's the footie effect?



Yeah, probably.
Give it 2 weeks.  Or 6 weeks if England win the final.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 16, 2021)

Don't worry, it's not bad news for a change!

DWP policy of cold-calling disabled people over benefit claims to end 

The Department for Work and Pensions has agreed to change its controversial policy of cold-calling vulnerable and disabled people and trying to persuade them to accept lower benefit claims than they are legally entitled to. 

... 

Having resisted calls to change their practice for more than a year, the DWP backed down the day before a judicial review challenge at the high court this week brought by a disabled claimant who said she was unfairly pressured into accepting a lower benefit offer.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 16, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Don't worry, it's not bad news for a change!
> 
> Having resisted calls to change their practice for more than a year, the DWP *backed down the day before a judicial review* challenge at the high court this week brought by a disabled claimant who said she was unfairly pressured into accepting a lower benefit offer.


(my emphasis)

It might be good news, but they still managed to do it in a cunt's trick kind of way


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 23, 2021)

Well suss: 

Ministers are considering measures to cut rising spending on disability benefits, and the possibility of merging personal independence payment with universal credit, a new government green paper has revealed. 

Ministers could merge disability benefits and want to cut future spending, says green paper


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 24, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Well suss:
> 
> Ministers are considering measures to cut rising spending on disability benefits, and the possibility of merging personal independence payment with universal credit, a new government green paper has revealed.
> 
> Ministers could merge disability benefits and want to cut future spending, says green paper


This very worrying. I'm on limited capability for work and work-related activity myself.

I don't think I would cope with a job and don't need my benefit cut.



This is not yet at white paper stage though. We will have to see what happens - but ofcourse, I don't trust the govt one bit.


----------



## Anxious (Aug 1, 2021)

Once again we can see that the spivs and their cheeleaders would be happy to cut disability benefits but the corporate welfare for them and their friends goes on and on , as Aneurin Bevan said - the tories lower than vermin


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 1, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> This very worrying. I'm on limited capability for work and work-related activity myself.
> 
> I don't think I would cope with a job and don't need my benefit cut.
> 
> ...


Me too


----------



## ash (Aug 1, 2021)

They are comparing models in NZ, Switzerland and Austria where there is minimal financial support and aids are provided instead of benefits or receipts for disability related expenses are required.  Also means testing is mentioned and financial support for only those on low incomes.  My blind husband would be fucked as I work.  Employment is a big driver with them saying that Covid, work from home and adapted technology means that many people who may have been in the support group would now be capable of work.
Also a severe disability group that willl not need reassessment but I imagine your disability would need to be very profound.  Worrying times .. let’s hope it doesn’t get to white paper  and if it does it will be defeated/amended in the Lords.
Needless to say all the big charities - Scope, RMIN, MIND are keeping shtum - too much investment in Govt payments for getting people back into work.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 2, 2021)

Wycombe in Buckinghamshire, who'd have guessed?









						Johnson faces rebellion over ‘intolerable’ hunger and poverty in home counties
					

Steve Baker, MP for Wycombe, urged ministers not to ignore the cost of living crisis in constituencies like his




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Anxious (Aug 2, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Wycombe in Buckinghamshire, who'd have guessed?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another johhny come lately dear me Baker first in queue for welfare cuts against the poor , an awful piece of work mind you just like the majority of his tory pals


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 3, 2021)

Anxious said:


> Another johhny come lately dear me Baker first in queue for welfare cuts against the poor , an awful piece of work mind you just like the majority of his tory pals


It's just performative, he doesn't really care.

BTW, does anyone know what's happening with WCAs rigt now? I know some have had phone assessments, but I'm going to assume the assessment centres are, or at least very soon will be, open again. Business as usual


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 4, 2021)

Going to get worse.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 4, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Going to get worse.



Any dirt on this Coffey bastard?


----------



## belboid (Oct 4, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Any dirt on this Coffey bastard?


She supports Liverpool


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 4, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Any dirt on this Coffey bastard?



She’s a Tory.


----------



## johnwesley (Oct 4, 2021)

Heartbreaking


----------



## existentialist (Oct 4, 2021)

johnwesley said:


> Heartbreaking



Fuck. Kudos to him for keeping that up so long - Rees-Mogg's transition from "brush off the loony" to "oh, shit, this bloke knows what he's saying" was good to see. I hope that encounter proper shit him up. For all the good it'll do


----------



## oryx (Oct 4, 2021)

So Rees-Mogg just blames cuts to youth services on local authorities misspending their money...no mention of course of huge cuts to said local authorities.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 6, 2021)

On the dark day that the scum remove £86pcm from the pockets of those in receipt of UC...if you want to find out how many people will be affected in your constituency, there is this link with a drop-down menu option to find your constituency:

Constituency data: Universal Credit rollout


----------



## Cado (Oct 12, 2021)

> Any dirt on this Coffey bastard?



She's a Satanist


----------



## Wistman (Oct 19, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> It's just performative, he doesn't really care.
> 
> BTW, does anyone know what's happening with WCAs rigt now? I know some have had phone assessments, but I'm going to assume the assessment centres are, or at least very soon will be, open again. Business as usual


I think they're completely overrun. I was assessed unfit for work a few years ago, but supposed to get a new assessment last year as it "ran out". Cancelled due to Covid and still waiting now over a year later. I'm sure I've heard of people getting phone assessments though so I'm sure they're taking place? Just such a backlog of new claims they don't have time to look at the old ones. In-person appointments at the jobcentre are back now too.

Some people they assessed unfit for work, but had their assessment run out, are being told they have to get fit notes from their doctor until their next WCA comes around. That's complete nonsense though, you shouldn't have to do that!


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## Orang Utan (Oct 19, 2021)

This is alarming and horrifying:








						'What kidnappers do' - DWP forcing universal credit claimants to pose for photo with daily paper - The Big Issue
					

One person trying to claim universal credit was told to have someone else take a photo of them holding a street sign with their right hand



					bigissue.com


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## inva (Oct 19, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> This is alarming and horrifying:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				that article said:
			
		

> “This kind of communication only shows how utterly disconnected the DWP is from the lived experience of people surviving on a low income,” Benjamin Morgan, research and communications coordinator at the PILC, told The Big Issue after the organisation’s client received the instructions.


I find it sort of amazing that you still get well meaning liberals who believe this kind of stuff is the result of ignorance at the DWP instead of deliberate hostility. If only they knew our hardship they'd change course immediately!


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## existentialist (Oct 19, 2021)

inva said:


> I find it sort of amazing that you still get well meaning liberals who believe this kind of stuff is the result of ignorance at the DWP instead of deliberate hostility. If only they knew our hardship they'd change course immediately!


A lot of the people working within the DWP will be only too aware of the hardships of their "customers", and will be stuck with implementing these ludicrous policies in the full knowledge of just how shit they are. 

A lot of DWP frontline staff know that they're only one performance review away from joining their claimants.


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## inva (Oct 19, 2021)

existentialist said:


> A lot of the people working within the DWP will be only too aware of the hardships of their "customers", and will be stuck with implementing these ludicrous policies in the full knowledge of just how shit they are.
> 
> A lot of DWP frontline staff know that they're only one performance review away from joining their claimants.


Don't disagree. I took the DWP in the article to mean those setting the agenda rather than the frontline staff.


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## brogdale (Oct 20, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> This is alarming and horrifying:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FFS


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## glitch hiker (Oct 20, 2021)

Wistman said:


> I think they're completely overrun. I was assessed unfit for work a few years ago, but supposed to get a new assessment last year as it "ran out". Cancelled due to Covid and still waiting now over a year later. I'm sure I've heard of people getting phone assessments though so I'm sure they're taking place? Just such a backlog of new claims they don't have time to look at the old ones. In-person appointments at the jobcentre are back now too.
> 
> Some people they assessed unfit for work, but had their assessment run out, are being told they have to get fit notes from their doctor until their next WCA comes around. That's complete nonsense though, you shouldn't have to do that!


I had a WCA last month, it was via phone. That was about a month after I got a letter saying I would be placed, again, in the WRAG ESA group. This seems to be about a six month thing.

In person appointments are happening, but the door of the assessment centre has a big "don't come in if you're symptomatic" sign.


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## glitch hiker (Oct 20, 2021)

johnwesley said:


> Heartbreaking



Watching that guy feel so abandoned and exploited that he has to grovel before a cunt is distressing. I hope he gets the help he needs and I hope Mogg fucks off down a deep dark hole


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## AmateurAgitator (Nov 3, 2021)

It won't bring her back. Her son has lost his mother who died in torment. There are many more Philipa Days out there. The government are cruel mass murdering scum.









						Capita pays compensation to family of woman who died after benefits cut
					

Exclusive: DWP contractor settles negligence claim by family of Philippa Day, who died of overdose




					www.theguardian.com


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## Shechemite (Nov 11, 2021)

Families outraged after government hands ‘sickening’ award to DWP safeguarding team
					

The government handed its own disability benefits safeguarding team an “outstanding contribution” award, just weeks after a coroner found that flaws in the disability benefits system had caused the…




					www.disabilitynewsservice.com


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## hitmouse (Dec 14, 2021)

Can't say I know anything about this group, but in case anyone feels moved to contribute:








						Help us fight the DWP’s secret benefits algorithm
					

We are a Disabled People's Organisation run and controlled by disabled people. We use the Social Model of Disability to fight for our rights and to remove disabling barriers in society.




					www.crowdjustice.com
				






> The Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) is using a highly secretive algorithm forcing disabled people into gruelling and invasive benefit fraud investigations.
> 
> To date the government has failed to provide any details about the algorithm. We don’t know how it works, how and why people are flagged for investigation, what information or data about us is used in this decision making, how the government is ensuring the rights of disabled people are protected and what checks and balances are in place to ensure that this algorithm doesn’t destroy lives.
> 
> ...


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## Serge Forward (Dec 15, 2021)

DWP to target claimants over Christmas and New Year - Anarchist Communist Group


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## Cado (Dec 17, 2021)

Why do you need to be an Anarchist Communist Group to have a problem with the DWP - virtually everything that qualifies as Human will have a problem with the DWP.


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## Shechemite (Dec 17, 2021)

What?


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## Dystopiary (Dec 17, 2021)

A couple of things here, regarding the DWP and Therese Coffey... 


Coffey dismisses call for new WCA review, despite claimant deaths evidence

*The work and pensions secretary has dismissed the need for a new review into the work capability assessment, despite being told that her own department failed to pass information about its links with claimant deaths to an independent reviewer.*

Therese Coffey also appeared to mislead the work and pensions committee yesterday (Wednesday) about evidence that should have been shared with the reviewer in 2013 and 2014. 

and

Coffey ‘is damaging disabled people’s trust in DWP’ over ‘unmet needs’ report

*Work and pensions secretary Therese Coffey has been accused by a senior MP of damaging disabled people’s trust in her department by failing to publish a report that concluded that claimants of disability benefits had “unmet needs”.*

The report, commissioned by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP), was watered down after the department told its authors to delete some of its analysis and reduce the number of times it referred to disabled people’s unmet needs.

A whistleblower told Disability News Service (DNS) last week that DWP had refused to publish the watered-down report, despite promises made to more than 100 disabled benefit claimants who had agreed to be interviewed that it would be published.


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## Serge Forward (Dec 17, 2021)

Cado said:


> Why do you need to be an Anarchist Communist Group to have a problem with the DWP - virtually everything that qualifies as Human will have a problem with the DWP.


Er... you don't


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## hitmouse (Dec 17, 2021)

You don't have to be an Anarchist Communist Group to work here, but it helps.


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## oryx (Dec 17, 2021)

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/truth-about-disability-benefits-dispatches
		


On tonight. Will try and watch as it looks potentially very interesting.


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## Calamity1971 (Dec 17, 2021)

oryx said:


> https://www.channel4.com/programmes/truth-about-disability-benefits-dispatches
> 
> 
> 
> On tonight. Will try and watch as it looks potentially very interesting.


6 minutes in, I knew it would be awful. This is fucking harrowing. We'll cancel your claim because you can't attend your appointment because you're in a coma! Cunts, utter cunts.


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## oryx (Dec 17, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


> 6 minutes in, I knew it would be awful. This is fucking harrowing. We'll cancel your claim because you can't attend your appointment because you're in a coma! Cunts, utter cunts.


The statistics they quoted of people who had contemplated suicide because of trouble with the DWP were shocking.


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## existentialist (Dec 18, 2021)

oryx said:


> The statistics they quoted of people who had contemplated suicide because of trouble with the DWP were shocking.


The Suicide Act 1961 (which decriminalised suicide, which is why we don't say "committed suicide" any more) made it an offence to "aid, abet, counsel or procure" a suicide.

I don't think it would take that much of a hotshot lawyer to argue that DWP, in knowingly mistreating someone who had already indicated suicidality, was "procuring" their suicide. I'd very much like to see a prosecution brought on that basis. I wonder if Good Law Project might be interested...although they are already very busy


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## hitmouse (Dec 20, 2021)

existentialist said:


> The Suicide Act 1961 (which decriminalised suicide, which is why we don't say "committed suicide" any more) made it an offence to "aid, abet, counsel or procure" a suicide.


Possibly a derail, but what verb would you use instead?


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## existentialist (Dec 20, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Possibly a derail, but what verb would you use instead?


"died by suicide" is the preferred term.


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## hitmouse (Dec 20, 2021)

Thanks.


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## teqniq (Jan 2, 2022)

These people are doing really great things but the fact that they feel they have to step in and help is a very sad indictment on our society:









						‘I’m always tired, Miss’: the sleepless children of Leeds’ bed poverty crisis
					

Teacher Bex Wilson was shocked to learn a pupil had no bed to sleep in. But this was the tip of the iceberg




					www.theguardian.com


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## Orang Utan (Jan 2, 2022)

teqniq said:


> These people are doing really great things but the fact that they feel they have to step in and help is a very sad indictment on our society:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They're a local charity to my workplace - I'm familiar with some of the families they help - it's unbelievable what living conditions people are forced to endure - much of the rest of society are totally unaware of just how poor poor is in this country


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## oryx (Jan 2, 2022)

teqniq said:


> These people are doing really great things but the fact that they feel they have to step in and help is a very sad indictment on our society:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See also: foodbanks.

Many people seem to see them as a good thing instead of being angry that they exist.


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## Cado (Jan 3, 2022)

Depends who you are listening to.

The Tories believe in the self-resilience of the peasantry "build them and the people will come" - they see them as a good thing, people getting on with things totally oblivious to the fact they created the problem in the first place.
My outlook is that the First-Aid box is needing to get bigger and bigger and bigger etc and that no! they are not a good thing in that we need to use them.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 4, 2022)

Backlash after Bank boss says don't ask for big pay rise
					

Unions criticise Andrew Bailey after he urges firms to moderate pay rises, with GMB calling it a "sick joke".



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






> Andrew Bailey told the BBC wage rises needed to be moderate with firms showing "restraint" in pay talks.
> When asked whether the Bank was asking workers not to demand big pay rises, Mr Bailey, said: "Broadly, yes."


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## Dystopiary (Feb 4, 2022)

MPs force publication of report into struggles of poorer disabled Britons​MPs force publication of report into struggles of poorer disabled Britons

[The report] that found low-income people reliant on disability benefits are struggling to meet essential living costs such as food, rent and energy bills.

The report has been kept under wraps for over a year, with the work and pensions secretary, Theresa Coffey, repeatedly refusing to release it on the grounds it was necessary to “protect the private space” in which ministers develop policy.

[It] was finally published on Thursday morning after the cross-party work and pensions select committee invoked rarely-used parliamentary powers to force its release, and accused ministers of “trying to bury uncomfortable truths”.


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## Dystopiary (Feb 4, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> MPs force publication of report into struggles of poorer disabled Britons​MPs force publication of report into struggles of poorer disabled Britons
> 
> [The report] that found low-income people reliant on disability benefits are struggling to meet essential living costs such as food, rent and energy bills.
> 
> ...


"Theresa Coffey" - that's the bloody Grauniad's spelling mistake, not mine! Should've checked it though.


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## Serge Forward (Feb 10, 2022)

How many millionaires do you know on prepayment meters? - Anarchist Communist Group


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## teqniq (Mar 5, 2022)

Colour me surprised:









						DWP blocks study of links between benefit sanctions and death. What are the Tories trying to hide?
					

A groundbreaking study of possible links between benefit sanctions and claimant ill-health – including mental illness and suicide – has ground to a halt because Tory ministers are not c…



					voxpoliticalonline.com


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## teqniq (Mar 10, 2022)

Fucksake:









						DWP is forcing distressed claimants to attend weekly meetings, says whistleblower
					

A Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) whistleblower has warned that harsh new policies that are forcing more disabled people to attend weekly face-to-face jobcentre meetings could lead to benefi…




					www.disabilitynewsservice.com


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## srb7677 (Mar 28, 2022)

The draconian welfare sanctions regime is quite deliberate. 

It is designed to make being on welfare support as anxiety inducing and insecure as possible, with sanctions for the most piddling of things. I mean for example, if I am 5 minutes late for work one day, the worst that might happen is a bit of a telling off, though they will probably be much more understanding if I have a good reason. Worst thing that could happen financially would be the loss of 15 minutes pay. But be 5 minutes late for a DWP interview and you could have all income for two weeks or a month removed, with very little sympathy for your reasons.

All of this of course serves an economic purpose. It is designed to induce such feelings of desperation that people will take absolutely any job on offer, no matter how poor the terms and conditions. And indeed they are likely to be sanctioned if they don't. Working people are induced to support this by a media narrative of feckless scroungers, with talk about people laying in bed whilst they get up in the morning. And yet they too are, as is intended, also victims. By creating an economy where people have to take any old rubbish, no matter how poor, they have created an economy riven with poor and exploitative contracts - the gig economy, zero hours contracts, fake self-employment, and so on.

A few decades back there was very little of this. When I was unemployed for a time in the 80s, had anyone offered me a zero hours contract I would have told them to stuff it and continued to look for a proper job. As would almost anybody. So employers had to offer something reasonable. Those who sometimes moaned about layabouts not wanting to take their jobs were generally the ones trying to offer exceptionally crap ones on very low pay. 

But by creating an environment where people dare not say no, however poor the offer, they have created an environment where terms and conditions can be worsened for all, including many of those in work. This is quite deliberate in the interests of those with wealth and power. It is not in the interests of working people.


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## Dystopiary (Apr 4, 2022)

Don;t know how I didn't know this! Benefit claimant hater Rachel Reeves is married to DWP Director General for Finance. 

Activists’ anger after they discover Labour frontbencher is married to DWP director 



> [T]he shadow chancellor, has been a focus for anger among many activists since she said seven years ago that Labour did not want to be seen as “the party to represent those who are out of work” and was “not the party of people on benefits”.
> 
> Only a couple of weeks ago, Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer mirrored the 2015 comments made by Reeves by declaring in a speech that Labour was “the party of working people” and “the party of work”.
> 
> ...


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## AmateurAgitator (Apr 4, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> Don;t know how I didn't know this! Benefit claimant hater Rachel Reeves is married to DWP Director General for Finance.
> 
> Activists’ anger after they discover Labour frontbencher is married to DWP director


Can't say I'm surprised.


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## Southlondon (Apr 5, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Can't say I'm surprised.





Dystopiary said:


> Don;t know how I didn't know this! Benefit claimant hater Rachel Reeves is married to DWP Director General for Finance.
> 
> Activists’ anger after they discover Labour frontbencher is married to DWP director


Let’s remember the Labour Party shipped to abstain on the benefit cuts under the coalition. Only the usual ‘rebels’, corbyn, Abbott, McDonald, Hoey etc voted against


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## Cado (Apr 6, 2022)

The problem is Labour traditionally are pro-welfare, the Tories still don't know why it exists.


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## Mezzer (May 26, 2022)

Cado said:


> The problem is Labour traditionally are pro-welfare, the Tories still don't know why it exists.


Obviously not:  Rishi Sunak accused of 'throwing red meat to socialists' with windfall tax


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## Cado (May 27, 2022)

Yes but watch the clip in its entirety - Rishi was being accused on doing ANYTHING was the problem with the "throwing red meat" speaker - he stated that the Cons should be handing out anything rather have used the money for tax cuts.

I stand by my remark, the Tories don't know what welfare is for; they've never been without their ETonian pocket money.


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## Dystopiary (Aug 5, 2022)

DWP contractors put lifts out of order and remove cups from beside water coolers to try to test the mobility of disabled people who are waiting to be assessed for benefits. (No, I'm not surprised.*) These are the people whose word counts far more than medical specialists on how disability/ill health affects any person being assessed. 

Benefit claimants have backed up these claims: 

Benefit claimants back up MP’s claims of assessment secret tricks 



> Another claimant, L, told DNS they had been told by an Atos assessor in about 2018: “There’s no available offices on the ground floor, let’s just got up here.”
> 
> The assessor then began to walk up the stairs.
> 
> When L failed to follow them, the assessor returned and suddenly found an empty ground floor office.



*Another thing they sometimes do is hide which company they are - eg, the receptionist answers the phone with a vague "Hello, medical centre?" and there are no clues at all in the public areas of the building whether it's run by ATOS, Capita or Maximus. That makes it appear more legit and also makes it that bit harder to complain. 

It's also often apparent that the receptionist is watching people in the waiting room and listening to their conversations. Don't forget, lots of people can't readily get to these places by themselves, and those that accompany them can sometimes be naive about how cynical the whole procedure can be, so might easily say things that could go against someone's claim. So for example they could be asked "How are you?" and reply "We're fine aren't we!" That could count against someone, as next thing "Mum/neighbour/random care assistant says they're fine" gets written on their notes for the DWP.


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## BCBlues (Aug 6, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> DWP contractors put lifts out of order and remove cups from beside water coolers to try to test the mobility of disabled people who are waiting to be assessed for benefits. (No, I'm not surprised.*) These are the people whose word counts far more than medical specialists on how disability/ill health affects any person being assessed.
> 
> Benefit claimants have backed up these claims:
> 
> ...



Even the travel expenses procedure can be used against you if you reclaim say a bus fare as then you can be questioned on oh, you're ok on public transport then?
I've noticed staff following you out the building after an assessment too pretending to be on their mobile or similar, like your going to break out into a Johnson wedding dance or summat.

Luckily for us all this scummy behaviour is very often disregarded at appeal stage.


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## Dystopiary (Aug 6, 2022)

BCBlues said:


> Even the travel expenses procedure can be used against you if you reclaim say a bus fare as then you can be questioned on oh, you're ok on public transport then?
> I've noticed staff following you out the building after an assessment too pretending to be on their mobile or similar, like your going to break out into a Johnson wedding dance or summat.
> 
> Luckily for us all this scummy behaviour is very often disregarded at appeal stage.


Yep, horrible. 

True dat. Just with it could be scrapped.


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## teqniq (Aug 14, 2022)

What a fucking surprise:









						British minister accused of trying to hide reports on impact of Tory welfare reforms
					

Thérèse Coffey ‘set out to minimise evidence’ on studies including research into deaths of benefit claimants and help for vulnerable




					www.theguardian.com


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## teqniq (Sep 9, 2022)

Tory scum need to pay:

DWP hounded disabled woman for years before her ‘starvation’ death, papers show


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## gosub (Sep 10, 2022)

Universal Credit claimants urged to apply for 14 payment boosts
					

As the country enters into a cost of living crisis, many people are looking for extra ways to ease their financial struggles - that's where these extra Universal Credit boosts come in.




					www.glasgowlive.co.uk


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## teqniq (Sep 17, 2022)

Disabled man’s body found six months after DWP cut off his benefits


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## Karl Masks (Sep 30, 2022)

Anyone else think further cost of living payments, including the second half of the £650 payment, will be scrapped now?


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## existentialist (Sep 30, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Anyone else think further cost of living payments, including the second half of the £650 payment, will be scrapped now?


I think they will go further. Watch for the "benefits scroungers bleeding are cuntry dry" messages, followed by real-terms cuts in benefits.


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## Karl Masks (Sep 30, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I think they will go further. Watch for the "benefits scroungers bleeding are cuntry dry" messages, followed by real-terms cuts in benefits.


Very likely, however I would say that the cost of living payment is a unique proposition and they have already paid some of it (to some). Cutting it I dont' doubt is in their wheelhouse, but would they is the question? I hope not because I need a new phone and some trews


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## existentialist (Sep 30, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Very likely, however I would say that the cost of living payment is a unique proposition and they have already paid some of it (to some). Cutting it I dont' doubt is in their wheelhouse, but would they is the question? I hope not because I need a new phone and some trews


Ah, but the cost of living payment is also for Decent Hardworking People. I could see them having to make it for people on benefits, but that would probably give them even more justification for reducing other benefits.


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## Karl Masks (Sep 30, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Ah, but the cost of living payment is also for Decent Hardworking People. I could see them having to make it for people on benefits, but that would probably give them even more justification for reducing other benefits.


Don't misunderstand me, I don't think anything's off the table for these people. I just expected to hear a firm date announced at this point, which concerns me.


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## AmateurAgitator (Sep 30, 2022)

Unfortunately punishing claimants is popular with most of the electorate (and not just those who vote for the blue tories). The protestant work ethic is still very much with us (despite the strike wave and its not just confined to the right)

Btw I was in the bank earlier and I overheard an old fella being informed that he'd received a cost of living payment. But the bank clerk made sure to tell him that "its not for us workers though."


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## Karl Masks (Sep 30, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Unfortunately punishing claimants is popular with most of the electorate (and not just those who vote for the blue tories). The protestant work ethic is still very much with us (despite the strike wave and its not just confined to the right)
> 
> Btw I was in the bank earlier and I overheard an old fella being informed that he'd received a cost of living payment. But the bank clerk made sure to tell him that "its not for us workers though."


I've heard similar. A very clear sense of divide and rule. Tories love it of course.


----------

