# Referees for jobs/volunteering



## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2012)

Loads of application forms ask for two referees and I only really have one person to ask, my old boss and he didn't return my last phone call 
Usually the criteria is this: 'Ideally, referees should be someone the volunteer has known for at least six months.  They should not be related and one should be a more formal relationship e.g. employer, social worker, probation officer, a course tutor, religious leader, volunteer manager etc.'. That's a very limited range of people really. 
Any advice on how to get round this?


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## gabi (Jan 24, 2012)

'probation officer'


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## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2012)

i know! i had the same job for 9 years and have never been caught offending, nor do i have a religious leader who might be able to testify for my good nature, just one flaky ex-boss who may have changed his number.


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## temper_tantrum (Jan 24, 2012)

Ex-employer's HR department would do, surely?
Plus someone else. Have you voluteered anywhere? Done any freelance work? Got a mate who can claim that you have volunteered/done some freelance work for them?


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## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2012)

So a referee doesn't have to have had any direct dealings with you as a person/employee?
i've never volunteered or freelanced. as i said, i did the same job for 9 years.
i suppose i could always get someone to lie, but that wouldn't be right.


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## Belushi (Jan 24, 2012)

I'll give you a reference dufus.


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## Belushi (Jan 24, 2012)

You should just give your old employers for your work one - someone in HR will do it in all likelyhood.


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## trashpony (Jan 24, 2012)

Do you not have any other former colleagues you could contact?


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## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Do you not have any other former colleagues you could contact?


yeah loads, but none of them senior to me


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## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2012)

Belushi said:


> I'll give you a reference dufus.


d'oh, i've just re-read my own C&P and it only says i need one referee should be a more formal relationship.


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## trashpony (Jan 24, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> yeah loads, but none of them senior to me


That doesn't matter. I put two former colleagues down as referees recently, both were on the same grade as me.


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## Belushi (Jan 24, 2012)

I'll do one and for the other just give the HR Dept at your former employers.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2012)

thanks! but how can the HR department give a ref if they haven't a clue who i am?


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## trashpony (Jan 24, 2012)

All any employer (whether a colleague, boss or HR person) will say nowadays is that OU was employed between the periods of X and Y and that you didn't take more than Z days off on sick leave in a year and left the company because they were made redundant. This in case they get their arse sued for saying something like you're a hard worker when the next company thinks you're a lounging sponger.

So HR is entirely appropriate

ETA: a colleague can write something 'in a personal capacity' ie that you were lovely and really good fun and always got the beers in or something but they have to make it clear that's personal, not a recommendation from the employer


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## Belushi (Jan 24, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> thanks! but how can the HR department give a ref if they haven't a clue who i am?



Because they have your employment records.  Many organisations wont allow anyone apart from HR give references, and wont allow a ref to say anything other than 'Orang Utan worked here from .... to... and there are no warnings on his record.

References are largely useless from a recruitment perspective ime.


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## Belushi (Jan 24, 2012)

Beaten to it by trashy


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 24, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> thanks! but how can the HR department give a ref if they haven't a clue who i am?



I'd have thought that your former employer's HR dept ought to know who you are if you were there for 9 years.  A lot of organisations have a policy that they won't provide much more than confirming how long you worked there and why you left anyway.

As for the 'less formal' / character reference - is there anyone you know outside work who's the kind of person they are looking for - someone of 'professional' standing sort of thing.

Alternatively, is there any friend / friend of friend you could do a bit of short term work for and get a reference out of?


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## OneStrike (Jan 24, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> thanks! but how can the HR department give a ref if they haven't a clue who i am?


They can vouch that you are reliable, few disciplinaries, weren't sacked e.t.c.  Its fairly normal for referencing to be a HR department job.


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## geminisnake (Jan 24, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Beaten by trashy



You'd love to be beaten by trashy 

All a referee has to do is say you are a sound person who isn't likely to cause hassles ime.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Because they have your employment records. Many organisations wont allow anyone apart from HR give references, and wont allow a ref to say anything other than 'Orang Utan worked here from .... to... and there are no warnings on his record.
> 
> References are largely useless from a recruitment perspective ime.


ok, i just though it would be best to put down someone who likes me and wants to say nice things about me, rather than someone who just knows that i worked for them at some point


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## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I'd have thought that your former employer's HR dept ought to know who you are if you were there for 9 years. A lot of organisations have a policy that they won't provide much more than confirming how long you worked there and why you left anyway.
> 
> As for the 'less formal' / character reference - is there anyone you know outside work who's the kind of person they are looking for - someone of 'professional' standing sort of thing.


sure, there are a few


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## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Alternatively, is there any friend / friend of friend you could do a bit of short term work for and get a reference out of?


 i don't know anyone who is an employer


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## Belushi (Jan 24, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> i don't know anyone who is an employer



Loads of your friends are managers, I can think of half a dozen off the top of my head.

I'mm not sure you've really got your head around the whole reference thing


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## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Loads of your friends are managers, I can think of half a dozen off the top of my head.
> 
> I'mm not sure you've really got your head around the whole reference thing


i was just responding to puddy tat's notion that there were people i might know who i could work for on a short term basis, like i know someone who owns a shop or a business or summat


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 24, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> i was just responding to puddy tat's notion that there were people i might know who i could work for on a short term basis, like i know someone who owns a shop or a business or summat



or even friend of a friend who might know of some casual work going where they work?

i've managed that a few times.

although on the occasion i left a full time job for it (wanted out as i had to give a month's notice, and i was young and naive enough to think that you would get in some sort of trouble if you didn't work out your notice) the firm in question went under the weekend my month's notice ended.

and since i didn't have the offer in writing, the dole people didn't like it and would only pay me the 'bread and water' version of the dole.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2012)

i wish i knew people who could offer me casual work as i need cash now!


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 24, 2012)

blargh.

last time I was seriously job hunting in London (which must be about 22 years ago -  )  a few of the job centres did deal with casual work - at that time, think it was Borough High Street and Wardour Street  (the latter was mainly but not exclusively catering sort of work)

I'd imagine it's changed a bit, as that was the time when the job centres and the unemployment benefit offices were separate.

can anyone who's a bit more up to date with these things confirm whether this might still be the case?


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## trashpony (Jan 24, 2012)

I would imagine that OU could sign on with an employment agency and get unskilled work if he could get his arse to Borough High St for 8am. But given that would entirely fuck up his benefits for very little cash, I can't see there's much point in that.

One former employer, one 'respectable' other reference, that's all they're asking for. And you do know loads of respectable people


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## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2012)

Yeah I was thinking of cash in hand, wish I knew some Delboy types!


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## trashpony (Jan 24, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Yeah I was thinking of cash in hand, wish I knew some Delboy types!


Go and ask in shops. That's how I got work when I lived in the US.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

fuck, now i have to find suitable referees for teacher training and i have no idea who to ask.
all the people who know me well enough to give me a reference on teaching are friends or family.
i never spoke about teaching with my old boss. i need two anyway.


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## geminisnake (Nov 8, 2012)

What about some urban folks? Do none of the Londoners know you well enough to write  a reference?


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## trashpony (Nov 8, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> fuck, now i have to find suitable referees for teacher training and i have no idea who to ask.
> all the people who know me well enough to give me a reference on teaching are friends or family.
> i never spoke about teaching with my old boss. i need two anyway.


Do they have to be pro refs? Can't you use people you know?


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

no family, no friends. define friend though.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 8, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> fuck, now i have to find suitable referees for teacher training and i have no idea who to ask.
> all the people who know me well enough to give me a reference on teaching are friends or family.
> i never spoke about teaching with my old boss. i need two anyway.


 
Aren't you volunteering at a school at the moment?  Get the head teacher to write something for you.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> Aren't you volunteering at a school at the moment? Get the head teacher to write something for you.


i have only met her once. i think it's a little soon to be asking people there.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 8, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> i have only met her once. i think it's a little soon to be asking people there.


 
I really wouldn't worry about it being too soon; if you don't want to ask the HT then ask the teacher you're helping in the class with.  They'll be used to being asked, honestly.  A lot of people on my undergrad used the people they'd worked with for a short placement we had to do in our second year as references alongside academic tutors.  Our placements were for a very short number of hours but they were more than happy to do so.  Nobody, as far as I'm aware was refused a reference on the basis that they'd only seen them work for a few days.


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## trashpony (Nov 8, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> no family, no friends. define friend though.


You do have friends who are teachers


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

trashpony said:


> You do have friends who are teachers


well exactly. can't ask the people who are the best qualified to testify. 
i'm gonna speak to TDA tomorrow and ask them for more clarification.


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## trashpony (Nov 8, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> well exactly. can't ask the people who are the best qualified to testify.
> i'm gonna speak to TDA tomorrow and ask them for more clarification.


Sorry if I'm being dim but why not?


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Sorry if I'm being dim but why not?


because you're not allowed to use friends or family as referees. understandable i suppose.


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## nagapie (Nov 8, 2012)

Surely they can't expect professional referees who are teachers? I mean you're not a teacher yet. 

tp, do you mean fake a reference? That can be tricky in school as things often go through the Headteacher and/or HR.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

from GTTR website:
For first referee:


> If you finished your studies more than five years ago or within the last five years and you cannot obtain a reference from a university or college tutor, your principal referee should be a responsible person who knows you well enough to write with authority about you, for example, an employer, a training officer or careers adviser. Your referee should be able to comment in detail about your suitability for your chosen PGCE or PGDE courses, and any training or study you have done recently.


Second:


> Your second referee must be a responsible person who knows you, and who can provide a character reference for you and comment on your suitability for teaching. You do not need to ask your second referee to provide a reference on your application. Training providers will contact your second referee if they want a second reference.





> You must not choose family members, friends, partners or ex-partners as your principal or second referee. If we find this to be the case, your application may be cancelled.


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## nagapie (Nov 8, 2012)

That's a bit ridiculous, the second referee sounds like it could be any responsible person who knows you and could comment on your suitability for teaching - me! But then you can't use friends. 

So your first reference needs to be your ex-boss. And I would then call them and ask who they suggest as a second reference? Given that you were at your last job for ages, there's not much chance of getting a reference from an older job. What about the people through whom you are volunteering in school? And yes, I'd ask the school if there's someone you work with who you help a lot and who likes you.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

the first referee needs to 'be able to comment in detail about your suitability for your chosen PGCE or PGDE courses, and any training or study you have done recently'. i don't think my ex-boss qualifies then. 
I've only done 3 days at one school so far, but I will ask the teacher I have been working with.


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## trashpony (Nov 8, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> because you're not allowed to use friends or family as referees. understandable i suppose.


Well except that if someone is giving you a reference in their professional capacity but through knowing you as a friend, that seems a mite short-sighted



nagapie said:


> Surely they can't expect professional referees who are teachers? I mean you're not a teacher yet.
> 
> tp, do you mean fake a reference? That can be tricky in school as things often go through the Headteacher and/or HR.


No! 

It just wasn't clear from OU's earlier posts that you couldn't use anyone who knew you in a personal capacity. After all I can imagine that teachers, like any job, aren't going to make a recommendation for someone else to do that job if they don't think they'd be competent.

ETA: Having read the bits from the website above, I think it's a bit insulting to suggest that someone who knows you in a personal capacity can't also apply their professional and responsible head when it comes to references.

Most of my references on Linked In are from friends. Admittedly I've worked with them all but they're still friends. Some of them I was friends with before I worked with them.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Do they have to be pro refs? Can't you use people you know?





Orang Utan said:


> no family, no friends. define friend though.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

trashpony said:


> It just wasn't clear from OU's earlier posts that you couldn't use anyone who knew you in a personal capacity. After all I can imagine that teachers, like any job, aren't going to make a recommendation for someone else to do that job if they don't think they'd be competent.


yeah, but unfortunately some people are unscrupulous and would make up stuff to help out a mate


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## trashpony (Nov 8, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> yeah, but unfortunately some people are unscrupulous and would make up stuff to help out a mate


But nags is a teacher. It would be utterly stupid of her to put her name to something which could be checked if she didn't think you were up to the job


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## Ozone (Nov 8, 2012)

OU,
Get someone at the school you are currently working at to be a referee (if you've been there a couple of months, it may be an idea to make an appointment with the Head and discuss it with her, tell her you are applying to do tt and ask whether she would be willing to be a referee) Heads send loads of refs every day...
And Nagpie if OU has ever babysat for you/helped you out in any way, you could possibly still act as a referee, in any case, they may never contact you.
OU, I teach, let me know if you need any help.

eta: sorry just seen post re nagpie being a teacher, I was writing a bit slowly and missed a couple of posts...still think you could be a referee.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

trashpony said:


> But nags is a teacher. It would be utterly stupid of her to put her name to something which could be checked if she didn't think you were up to the job


it would, but rules is rules.


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## trashpony (Nov 8, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> it would, but rules is rules.


I have no truck with silly rules (probably why I'm not a teacher )


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I have no truck with silly rules (probably why I'm not a teacher )


i don't think it is THAT silly. if they didn't have it, references wouldn't be credible.


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## trashpony (Nov 8, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> i don't think it is THAT silly. if they didn't have it, references wouldn't be credible.


I disagree because if they're from someone who is credible who has known you in a personal capacity and has observed you with children, then that person is putting their professional credibility on the line if they give you a decent reference.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I disagree because if they're from someone who is credible who has known you in a personal capacity and has observed you with children, then that person is putting their professional credibility on the line if they give you a decent reference.


yeah, i was going to add that someone who is in a relevant profession and has a reputation to uphold should give a reference some credibility. after all, you're allowed to get friends to referee your passport if they have professional qualifications. but i can see the potential for corruption too.


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## idumea (Nov 8, 2012)

I recently wrote a personal recommendation for a friend on her UCAS application to study be a teacher, who was in a similar situation to you. She got the place (little to do with my reference I'll bet, she's awesome), but the interviewer apparently specifically mentioned the reference being a good one at her interview.


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## idumea (Nov 8, 2012)

I can send you a copy of the reference if you like (with a few bits bleeped out)-- it's a bit cringey in places, though. I laid on the praise with a trowel. 

Edit: sorry if this is worse than useless. I just realised she was applying for BA Education, rather than PGCE.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 20, 2012)

I was told yesterday that the teacher whose class I'm working in this week would be happy to do me a reference, so that's one less thing to worry about.
The next thing to worry about it passing a numeracy test.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 21, 2012)

I give people references all the time - anyone with an email address linked to an organisation and with a decent looking email sig can generally fill one in.

Mind you I can sign passport applications as well, which is mad that they would take my word for owt!


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