# Welshiness in yankland



## jannerboyuk (Feb 16, 2010)

It always struck me as strange that the yanks love their plastic oirishness but despite pretty significant welsh migration to the US there is no welsh equivalent, which makes any reference to welsh stuff a surprise. I came across this one today and actually learnt something new
http://www.pvponline.com/


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## Santino (Feb 16, 2010)

I believe hiccup once went on a field trip to New York to investigate the Welsh diaspora. Not just as an excuse to visit bars, either. Maybe if you say his name five times he will appear.


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## lewislewis (Feb 16, 2010)

It's all about _that_ book with the photos of Welsh-named towns in the States. Enigmatic and incredible stuff.


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## lewislewis (Feb 16, 2010)

Thinking about the detail behind this thread, i'm pretty pleased that there isn't a plastic American-Welshness or an American-Welsh "industry". Instead what you have is a relatively small but dedicated network of Welsh societies, Welsh language groups and Welsh cultural groups in America who are genuinely passionate about their ancestry. I'll take that any day over the silly Irish stuff (even if it means Plaid aren't getting loads of cash from America!).

Add to that the growing number of Americans who are visiting Wales nowadays as tourists and student interns and you've got a growing awareness internationally of how interesting Wales is.


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## PAD1OH (Feb 16, 2010)

i think there is a big difference in numbers. according to wiki

"*36,278,332 *Americans — over 11.9% of total population—reported some Irish ancestry"

and

"In the 2000 Census, 1.75 million Americans reported Welsh ancestry, 0.6% of the total U.S. population. This compares with a population of 3 million in Wales. However, 3.8% of Americans bear a Welsh surname.[2]"


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 16, 2010)

PAD1OH said:


> i think there is a big difference in numbers. according to wiki
> 
> "*36,278,332 *Americans — over 11.9% of total population—reported some Irish ancestry"
> 
> ...



pfft. dodgy claims from yanks? who woulda thought.


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## Lord Camomile (Feb 16, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> Instead what you have is a relatively small but dedicated network of Welsh societies, Welsh language groups and Welsh cultural groups in America who are genuinely passionate about their ancestry.


Not to derail what is actually an interesting subject, but I would _love_ to hear Welsh in an American accent


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## meurig (Feb 16, 2010)

jannerboyuk said:


> pfft. dodgy claims from yanks? who woulda thought.



They're Catholics though innit mun.


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 16, 2010)

meurig said:


> They're Catholics though innit mun.



Are you suggesting that the taffs don't put it around enough? What is the chapel goers policy on procreation matters? I personally feel that welsh women could do with loosening their morals somewhat.


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## editor (Feb 16, 2010)

When I lived out there, I gave up explaining I was Welsh seeing as 99.99% didn't have a fucking clue what or where it was.

Mind you, I'd rather be unknown than suffer the dreadful travesty of all that cod Oirish nonsense.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 16, 2010)

editor said:


> When I lived out there, I gave up explaining I was Welsh seeing as 99.99% didn't have a fucking clue what or where it was.
> 
> Mind you, I'd rather be unknown than suffer the dreadful travesty of all that cod Oirish nonsense.




Well how are you going to educate them if you give up explaining yourself.  

You should have sat there and spoke fluent Welsh to them and watch them dribble in amazement and bafflement at the language


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## Bernie Gunther (Feb 16, 2010)

I've often claimed to be Welsh when overseas, it's more interesting than either of the alternatives (born in England, other half Irish) _because _it's so obscure.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 16, 2010)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I've often claimed to be Welsh when overseas, it's more interesting than either of the alternatives (born in England, other half Irish) _because _it's so obscure.



My ex was a fluent Welsh speaker and whenever he was in Brixton and in the pub ringing his mum, he had a crowd of English round him listening to him speak


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## Yuwipi Woman (Feb 16, 2010)

Lord Camomile said:


> Not to derail what is actually an interesting subject, but I would _love_ to hear Welsh in an American accent



Welsh is unpronouncible in any language--including Welsh.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 16, 2010)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Welsh is unpronouncible in any language--including Welsh.




chwech   

*has choking fit*


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## editor (Feb 16, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well how are you going to educate them if you give up explaining yourself.
> 
> You should have sat there and spoke fluent Welsh to them and watch them dribble in amazement and bafflement at the language


If they don't even know their own history, I've got no chance of educating them!





> The largest ethnic group of signatories (16 in all) on the original draft of the American Declaration of Independence were Welsh! Thomas Jeffersons' family who came from Snowdonia spoke Welsh too
> 
> http://www.famouswelsh.com/welsh-facts-fiction/anecdotes-from-wales.php





> ...almost 50 percent of the signers of the American Declaration of Independence were Welsh or of Welsh descent-- as were nine of the Presidents of the United States-- and that many of the universities and colleges such as Yale, Princeton, Brown, William and Mary, Virginia, Johns Hopkins, and Andover were founded by Welshman.
> 
> The man who financed the War of Independence was Robert Morris, Pennsylvania was founded by William Penn, and Rhode Island by Roger Williams, all were Welsh.  It is strange indeed that such a small country-- as Wales, so many people are hardly aware of its existence-- has contributed so much more in proportion to its size than any other nation, and stranger still so little has been written of it.  Oh, yes, the next time you are in the Capitol and feel like climbing the Washington Monument stairway, about halfway up there is a stone inscribed:
> 
> ...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 16, 2010)

editor said:


> If they don't even know their own history, I've got no chance of educating them!




Well yes, you do have a very good point there, but you never know, you might catch one.  Unlikely though 

But I imagine it would be great fun to sit there chatting away in Welsh to them anyway


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 16, 2010)

editor said:


> If they don't even know their own history, I've got no chance of educating them!




Fascinating stuff Editor.   I mean the bit about the inscription.  I'd quote it, except I haven't figured out how to highlight, cut and paste on a mousepad yet.  

You'd think the Americans, seeing that weird, unpronounceable language on the steps, would be a bit curious.  Obviously not


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## editor (Feb 16, 2010)

Twenty percent of the Pilgrim Fathers were Welsh. So was the Captain of the Mayflower, and Pennsylvania was going to be named ‘New Wales’, but most Americans still haven't got a clue what Wales is.

Not so sure about this mind, but  there's a chance that it might be true:


> Some say that America was actually named after a Welshman, Richard Amerik, a wealthy Glamorgan customs officer in Bristol in the late 15th century who invested in the second voyage of John Cabot, the first European to land on American soil in 1497.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 16, 2010)

editor said:


> Twenty percent of the Pilgrim Fathers were Welsh. So was the Captain of the Mayflower, and Pennsylvania was going to be named ‘New Wales’, but most Americans still haven't got a clue what Wales is.
> 
> Not so sure about this mind, but  there's a chance that it might be true:




Just think, one day, the Welsh might be the new Oirish and loads of Americans will suddenly forget their claims to have Irish ancestry and start to call themselves Welsh 

They'd have to learn the fake Welsh accent though 

What's the Welsh equivalent "to be sure, to be sure", "top of the morning to you" etc. in Welsh?  

Maybe that inscription on the steps was just a Welsh stonemason leaving his mark?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 16, 2010)

editor said:
			
		

> but most Americans still haven't got a clue what Wales is.


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## meurig (Feb 16, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Just think, one day, the Welsh might be the new Oirish and loads of Americans will suddenly forget their claims to have Irish ancestry and start to call themselves Welsh
> 
> They'd have to learn the fake Welsh accent though
> 
> ...



The Welsh inscription on the Washington memorial was just a bunch of NY Welsh making their mark in the mid 19th century.

A lot of the stuff about the 50% of the signatories having Welsh ancestry is dubious to say the least as well.


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## 1927 (Feb 17, 2010)

Isn't the thing about the Welsh surnames something to do wwith ex-slaves taking their owners names when they were freed. I think something like 6 of the 10 most popular ex-slave owners names are Welsh.


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## editor (Feb 17, 2010)

meurig said:


> A lot of the stuff about the 50% of the signatories having Welsh  ancestry is dubious to say the least as well.


The Beeb repeated the claim:





> It is said that 20 per cent of the Pilgrim Fathers of America were Welsh and that almost 50 per cent of the signatories to the American Declaration of Independence were also Welsh or of Welsh heritage.
> 
> The author of the Declaration of Independence, President Thomas Jefferson, was among those of Welsh descent, along with eight other American presidents.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest/sites/familyhistory/pages/jefferson.shtml


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## skyscraper101 (Feb 17, 2010)

editor said:


> Not so sure about this mind, but  there's a chance that it might be true:
> 
> 
> > Some say that America was actually named after a Welshman, Richard Amerik, a wealthy Glamorgan customs officer in Bristol in the late 15th century who invested in the second voyage of John Cabot, the first European to land on American soil in 1497.



There is quite a lot of evidence to suggest that is indeed true.

Also, his coat of arms is said to have directly influenced the stars and stripes, as it features stars and distinct stripes akin to the current design:


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## lewislewis (Feb 17, 2010)

Lord Camomile said:


> Not to derail what is actually an interesting subject, but I would _love_ to hear Welsh in an American accent



I've heard a few attempts!


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## lewislewis (Feb 17, 2010)

editor said:


> The Beeb repeated the claim:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest/sites/familyhistory/pages/jefferson.shtml



Is it another one of those urban myths like Fidel Castro having an interest Owain Glyndwr?

Pretty cool myths mind.


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## niclas (Feb 18, 2010)

One of the most famous union leaders (mainstream not Wobblies) in the USA was John Llywelyn Lewis, a Welsh miner who emigrated.

Lots of other stuff to argue over here! It does seem to debunk the numbers of Welsh descent who signed the Declaration of Independence - just five.


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## 1927 (Feb 18, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> Is it another one of those urban myths like Fidel Castro having an interest Owain Glyndwr?
> 
> Pretty cool myths mind.



One of the arguments against it being named after Amerigo Vespucci is that it is not usual to name countries after a persons given name, and much more likely to be a surname.

My favourite is that Elvis was of Welsh ancestry. There is a church of St.Elvis in the Preseli Mountains. Elvis Preseli, its a possibility.


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## butchersapron (Feb 18, 2010)

niclas said:


> One of the most famous union leaders (mainstream not Wobblies) in the USA was John Llywelyn Lewis, a Welsh miner who emigrated.



A lot of Welsh miners were brought over as overseers/formen whatever the term is for the boss's man on the ground and the welsh were particular targets of the Molly Maguires as a result.


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## Fuchs66 (Feb 18, 2010)

PAD1OH said:


> "*36,278,332 *Americans — over 11.9% of total population—reported some Irish ancestry"
> 
> and
> 
> "In the 2000 Census, 1.75 million Americans reported Welsh ancestry, 0.6% of the total U.S. population. This compares with a population of 3 million in Wales. However, 3.8% of Americans bear a Welsh surname.[2]"



Just goes to show, even the Welsh dont want to be Welsh, given half a chance


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## editor (Feb 18, 2010)

niclas said:


> Lots of other stuff to argue over here! It does seem to debunk the numbers of Welsh descent who signed the Declaration of Independence - just five.


Eh?



> Indeed, it is said that upwards of 50% of the signatories to the Declaration of Independence had Welsh heritage, including: George Clymer, Stephen Hopkins, Robert Morris, William Floyd, Francis Hopkinson, John Morton, Britton Gwinnett, Thomas Jefferson, John Penn, George Read, John Hewes, Francis Lewis, James Smith, Williams Hooper, Lewis Morris, and William Williams.  Crucial to the finding, founding and furthering of the American nation, the Welsh have played a prominent role.


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## 1927 (Feb 18, 2010)

Fuchs66 said:


> Just goes to show, even the Welsh dont want to be Welsh, given half a chance



How do you work that out from the information required?


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## 1927 (Feb 18, 2010)

niclas said:


> One of the most famous union leaders (mainstream not Wobblies) in the USA was John Llywelyn Lewis, a Welsh miner who emigrated.
> 
> Lots of other stuff to argue over here! It does seem to debunk the numbers of Welsh descent who signed the Declaration of Independence - just five.



Very interesting stuff there, and one titbit to surpass my Elvis theory as my fave bit of Welsh trivia.  Penguins are all Welsh!!!!


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## niclas (Feb 18, 2010)

editor said:


> Eh?



I was very, very drunk...


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## lewislewis (Feb 18, 2010)

Fuchs66 said:


> Just goes to show, even the Welsh dont want to be Welsh, given half a chance



I know you're joking, but at the 2001 census 72% of us said we were Welsh wholly. Only 7% said 'Welsh and British'. Next census the Welsh identity will be even higher. And that's brilliant.


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## phildwyer (Feb 18, 2010)

jannerboyuk said:


> It always struck me as strange that the yanks love their plastic oirishness but despite pretty significant welsh migration to the US there is no welsh equivalent, which makes any reference to welsh stuff a surprise.



I'm Welsh and live in the USA, and I see quite a lot of Welsh references, especially in Philadelphia and its suburbs--Bryn Mawr, Gwynedd etc.  There's a plaque on the Phillly City Hall commemorating Welsh Americans.  And I dated a girl from Bangor PA, all four of whose grandparents were from the Valleys.


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## editor (Feb 18, 2010)

phildwyer said:


> I'm Welsh and live in the USA, and I see quite a lot of Welsh references, especially in Philadelphia and its suburbs--Bryn Mawr, Gwynedd etc.  There's a plaque on the Phillly City Hall commemorating Welsh Americans.  And I dated a girl from Bangor PA, all four of whose grandparents were from the Valleys.


Street parade in New York, 2005:


> This is more like it - meet the Bangor Area High School 'Slater'  Marching Band from  Pennsylvania - with a Welsh flag (and what looks  like a Celtic/Cornish flag too) - cool!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.urban75.org/photos/newyork/veterans-day-2.html


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## phildwyer (Feb 18, 2010)

editor said:


> Bangor



It's much like a transplanted Valleys town, up in the Pennsylvania coal belt.

Except that the Mayor was busted for cocaine dealing a few years ago.


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 18, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> I know you're joking, but at the 2001 census 72% of us said we were Welsh wholly. Only 7% said 'Welsh and British'. Next census the Welsh identity will be even higher. And that's brilliant.



personally i find that stuff a bit dubious. people can claim to be 'wholly welsh' but what does that mean as those same people speak english, watch coronation street and worry about manchester united debts? is such a thing as 'wholly welsh' even possible right and if not why does the question get asked? the subjectivism in social analysis is overdone in my view


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## mwgdrwg (Feb 18, 2010)

Madog discovered America and taught the  Red Indians to speak Welsh. True!


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## lewislewis (Feb 21, 2010)

jannerboyuk said:


> personally i find that stuff a bit dubious. people can claim to be 'wholly welsh' but what does that mean as those same people speak english, watch coronation street and worry about manchester united debts? is such a thing as 'wholly welsh' even possible right and if not why does the question get asked? the subjectivism in social analysis is overdone in my view



It's not dubious its self-definition. We are a nation of the British Isles, it's perfectly fine to watch Coronation Street and support English football (enough Welsh nationalists support Liverpool for goodness sake). If some people decide their national identity is 'Welsh' then yes there is such a thing as Welsh.

I used the term 'wholly Welsh' to distance it from the dual Welsh/British identity that some people might have (or Welsh/Pakistani, Welsh/Somali etc).

As Gwyn Alf said- Wales exists when the people of Wales decide it exists, and we have to remake it constantly in order for it to survive. A very fitting creed considering what globalisation is doing to the world.


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## niclas (Feb 21, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> It's not dubious its self-definition. We are a nation of the British Isles, it's perfectly fine to watch Coronation Street and support English football (enough Welsh nationalists support Liverpool for goodness sake). If some people decide their national identity is 'Welsh' then yes there is such a thing as Welsh.
> 
> I used the term 'wholly Welsh' to distance it from the dual Welsh/British identity that some people might have (or Welsh/Pakistani, Welsh/Somali etc).
> 
> As Gwyn Alf said- Wales exists when the people of Wales decide it exists, and we have to remake it constantly in order for it to survive. A very fitting creed considering what globalisation is doing to the world.



The idea that we can only like rugby union, daffodils, choirs and bara brith died in 1997 didn't it?

As it happens I like all these things but I also support Everton, love Tom Waits, lamb passanda.


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 21, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> It's not dubious its self-definition. We are a nation of the British Isles, it's perfectly fine to watch Coronation Street and support English football (enough Welsh nationalists support Liverpool for goodness sake). If some people decide their national identity is 'Welsh' then yes there is such a thing as Welsh.
> 
> I used the term 'wholly Welsh' to distance it from the dual Welsh/British identity that some people might have (or Welsh/Pakistani, Welsh/Somali etc).
> 
> As Gwyn Alf said- Wales exists when the people of Wales decide it exists, and we have to remake it constantly in order for it to survive. A very fitting creed considering what globalisation is doing to the world.


then what does it mean to be welsh? surely there has to be an objective definition otherwise its all pretty much airy fairy. its like people being afraid to say people who speak the language are more welsh then non-speakers but how can they not be? for me the spread or otherwise of the language are a more useful measurement of increasing welshness.


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## lewislewis (Feb 21, 2010)

jannerboyuk said:


> then what does it mean to be welsh? surely there has to be an objective definition otherwise its all pretty much airy fairy. its like people being afraid to say people who speak the language are more welsh then non-speakers but how can they not be? for me the spread or otherwise of the language are a more useful measurement of increasing welshness.



Whatever the Welsh collectively want it to mean, decided through debate, politics, cultural activity, protest, sport etc etc. I don't want to seem simplistic but I think it's qutie evidenced that a Welsh national identity is becoming more and more prevalent since the devolution process began.


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## Karac (Feb 21, 2010)

"FY IAITH, FY NGWLAD, FY NGHENEDL CYMRU - CYMRU AM BYTH!"
no one really knows why that's on that monument
                    But my moneys on Welsh stonemasons


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 21, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> Whatever the Welsh collectively want it to mean, decided through debate, politics, cultural activity, protest, sport etc etc. I don't want to seem simplistic but I think it's qutie evidenced that a Welsh national identity is becoming more and more prevalent since the devolution process began.



well see thats kinda of my point. if everyone in wales lived a life completely indistinguishable from life in england but ticked a box saying wholly welsh then what does that mean? surely its what people do that matters?
im not convinced about increased and measurable welshness (which i more then accept is a very complex thing to measure). more people getting cymru am byth tattooed on their calves maybe. definitely more support for a welsh assembly with law making powers which i agree is significant.


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## lewislewis (Feb 22, 2010)

jannerboyuk said:


> well see thats kinda of my point. if everyone in wales lived a life completely indistinguishable from life in england but ticked a box saying wholly welsh then what does that mean? surely its what people do that matters?
> im not convinced about increased and measurable welshness (which i more then accept is a very complex thing to measure). more people getting cymru am byth tattooed on their calves maybe. definitely more support for a welsh assembly with law making powers which i agree is significant.



Fair enough, i'll go with that. I'm not that worried about finding ways to measure (or even define) Welshness, just looking around me at things like Welsh medium schools, devolution etc- I accept this isn't very empirical though.

The most frequent thing I hear on devolution/powers is 'we should have the same as Scotland'.


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 22, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> Fair enough, i'll go with that. I'm not that worried about finding ways to measure (or even define) Welshness, just looking around me at things like Welsh medium schools, devolution etc- I accept this isn't very empirical though.
> 
> The most frequent thing I hear on devolution/powers is 'we should have the same as Scotland'.



Good point on the welsh medium schools. It was interesting to note that the anti-welsh language lobby tried to use the re-organisation of cardiff schools to whip up some conflict and they didnt really get much traction. I agree with your scotland point. It's such an obvious glaring contradiction. I notice however that the tories are back to "if you don't intend to use the power, why do you want it?" over housing. I dont think thats going to wash.


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## nightowl (Feb 22, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> I'll take that any day over the silly Irish stuff (even if it means Plaid aren't getting loads of cash from America!).



Plaid wouldn't get the money anyway because they're not blowing anyone up


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## Karac (Feb 25, 2010)

meurig said:


> The Welsh inscription on the Washington memorial was just a bunch of NY Welsh making their mark in the mid 19th century.
> 
> A lot of the stuff about the 50% of the signatories having Welsh ancestry is dubious to say the least as well.



A group of Welsh stonemasons taking the piss as they should.


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