# Olympic torch protests - Free Tibet



## Iguana (Mar 30, 2008)

Anybody planning on protesting along the Olympic torch route next Sunday?  I've been searching for details of any planned protests, but all I've found is the route on indymedia.  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/03/394849.html

I was thinking of going along to Oxford St before mid-day and maybe following through China town.  But would probably be too wimpy to protest if I was surrounded by shopping tourists and Olympics supporters.


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## Dan U (Mar 31, 2008)

Yes i think i might head up.

Anyone got any links for where groups are planning on meeting?

if that isn't too bait of course.


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## pootle (Mar 31, 2008)

I are also interested!

There is some stuff planned here http://www.freetibet.org/

Anyone just watch that Dispatches programme on Tibet?  

Have just joined the Free Tibet campaign group and looked on their site about ways to help, but it's mostly letter writing and vigils! Vigils ain't going to help nomads being driven into what looks like concentration camps and women having forced sterilisations by having their fallopian tubes ripped out!


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## rollinder (Apr 3, 2008)

I've just posted info from the Burma campaign Uk on their protest over in announce
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=245946


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## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 3, 2008)

pootle said:


> I are also interested!
> 
> There is some stuff planned here http://www.freetibet.org/
> 
> ...



Rascist! Chinese hater! Anglo liar!


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## pootle (Apr 3, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> Rascist! Chinese hater! Anglo liar!



innit - did you see the comment from the Chinese Embassy at the end about Dispatches being "a neither serious or worthy programme so we aren't going to waste time commenting on it" 

Any other news about Sunday? I know there are plenty of plans for people to line the route and demonstrate but surely there's got to be something a bit more, well, bigger like blocking a road or summat?  I'm new to this actually being bothered about something lark...PM me if needs be...


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## London_Calling (Apr 3, 2008)

I thought it was impressive coordination to get the monks to begin protesting again in the days before the torch was officially lit in Greece. Gives the protest life as it moves through different countries over several months. Good concept.


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## david dissadent (Apr 3, 2008)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7328447.stm

The Chinese Ambassador has pulled out of the relay. This is a serious loss of face.


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## Pavlik (Apr 3, 2008)

Yep, me and mini me are going, armed with camera and djembe.
I've been a bit of an armchair protestor lately but this story's been winding me up.


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## e19896 (Apr 3, 2008)

Pavlik said:


> Yep, me and mini me are going, armed with camera and djembe.
> I've been a bit of an armchair protestor lately but this story's been winding me up.



images to indymedia and here please, have to armchair can not get 30 pounds for fair ill donate 10 to a good idea.


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## Pavlik (Apr 3, 2008)

e19896 said:


> images to indymedia and here please, have to armchair can not get 30 pounds for fair ill donate 10 to a good idea.



not sure i understood you there.


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## pootle (Apr 3, 2008)

Nor me


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## stat (Apr 4, 2008)

i'll be there.  will try to knock up a banner too... i always regret not taking a banner with me.

any suggestions on what to write on it?  may just keep it simple with 'free tibet'


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 4, 2008)

pootle said:


> Have just joined the Free Tibet campaign group and looked on their site about ways to help, but it's mostly letter writing and vigils! Vigils ain't going to help nomads being driven into what looks like concentration camps and women having forced sterilisations by having their fallopian tubes ripped out!



this doesn't only happen to tibetans in china...
it happens to chinese people.

maybe i should make a banner that says 'free tibet. free china.'


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## Taxamo Welf (Apr 4, 2008)

> Protesters who try to disrupt the passage of the torch could be detained until it has left London on Sunday night. If demonstrations should turn violent, the relay could be abandoned or rerouted at short notice.
> 
> "If we had thousands of protesters who turned rough then we may take a pragmatic decision to move round them or go straight to the O2, but we will not be battling through people who are determined to stop the relay," Broadhurst said.


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## winjer (Apr 4, 2008)

Pavlik said:


> not sure i understood you there.



He said "Please upload any good photos you take to Urban and Indymedia (indymedia.org.uk), I can only spectate from here as I can't afford the train fare, but I'll donate £10 to anyone with a good idea."


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## cantsin (Apr 4, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> this doesn't only happen to tibetans in china...
> it happens to chinese people.
> 
> maybe i should make a banner that says 'free tibet. free china.'



yes !


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## cantsin (Apr 4, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> this doesn't only happen to tibetans in china...
> it happens to chinese people.
> 
> maybe i should make a banner that says 'free tibet. free china.'



yes !


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## Pavlik (Apr 4, 2008)

winjer said:


> He said "Please upload any good photos you take to Urban and Indymedia (indymedia.org.uk), I can only spectate from here as I can't afford the train fare, but I'll donate £10 to anyone with a good idea."





It sort of made sense but not quite.
I have pm'd him to ask how/why I would upload images to indymedia as I dont know that site.

If anyone knows anything about it can you let me know.
I dont mind doing something if I know it's doing some good.


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## gloom monger (Apr 4, 2008)

rollinder said:


> I've just posted info from the Burma campaign Uk on their protest over in announce
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=245946



This is crucial, and six months after the September protests is in danger of being sidelined in the protests by Tibet / Darfur. All three deserve to be highlighted equally imo.


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## winjer (Apr 4, 2008)

Pavlik said:


> I have pm'd him to ask how/why I would upload images to indymedia as I dont know that site.



How: go to the site, hit "publish your news", enter a title, description (can be just one line, better longer), upload the photos.

Why: it's one of the longest established independent media sites, lots of people read it and the mainstream media also follows up things that appear there.


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## Pavlik (Apr 4, 2008)

winjer said:


> How: go to the site, hit "publish your news", enter a title, description (can be just one line, better longer), upload the photos.
> 
> Why: it's one of the longest established independent media sites, lots of people read it and the mainstream media also follows up things that appear there.



oh ok, that makes more sense now.
i was looking at indymedia.com


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## Garcia Lorca (Apr 4, 2008)

it was on the news last night that police have said they have the right to/and will remove any "unsightly" banners or plackards... 

looks like they do not want anything to tarnish this great event!



wish i could be down there.. someone should blow the fucking torch out.


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## Garcia Lorca (Apr 4, 2008)

a little bit late, but heres a wee graphic that was put together by a friend here in glasgow.


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## pootle (Apr 5, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> this doesn't only happen to tibetans in china...
> it happens to chinese people.
> 
> maybe i should make a banner that says 'free tibet. free china.'



Well quite...I was asking on another thread how to support Tibetans/let the Chinese govt know I'm pissed off but stuff like boycotting Chinese goods is only going to hit the average Chinese person most of whom are getting their human rights stamped on too  

What are you to do?


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## frogwoman (Apr 5, 2008)

Taxamo Welf said:


>



 fucking twats (not you)


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## noriise (Apr 5, 2008)

some photos from a protest the other day - still got a few more films to develop so will put them up once done#:

http://www.elliottaylor.com/galleries/tibet_protest/

Will be there tomorrow - is it irresponsible to water balloon or egg the torch?

furious about the situation and the blatent propaganda.

A significant facebook group for a free tibet protest tomorrow has been revealed to have been set up by pro-chinese supporters - they set the location away from the torch route.... Sneaky and cunning disinformation in a dirty propaganda war.

shame on china.


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## The Black Hand (Apr 5, 2008)

Intersting dirty trik above.


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## frogwoman (Apr 5, 2008)

noriise said:


> some photos from a protest the other day - still got a few more films to develop so will put them up once done#:
> 
> http://www.elliottaylor.com/galleries/tibet_protest/
> 
> ...



really? which one?


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## noriise (Apr 5, 2008)

"Satbir Singh sent a message to the members of London Olympic Torch Relay | Peaceful Protest.

--------------------
Subject: URGENT! CHANGE TO PROPOSED SCHEDULING!

THERE WILL BE NO EVENT OUTSIDE THE EMBASSY ON THE DAY.

ACCORDING TO NEW SCOTLAND YARD, AND CONTACTS WITHIN THE TIBETAN COMMUNITY, IT APPEARS THAT THE ORGANISATION WHO FLOATED THE IDEA OF AN EVENT AT THE EMBASSY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TIBETAN COMMUNITY AND INTENDED FOR THIS EVENT TO DISTRACT FROM THE TORCH ROUTE ITSELF.

PLEASE INFORM ANYBODY YOU KNOW TO BE ATTENDING THIS EVENT TO PROCEED TO THE MAIN FREE TIBET EVENTS AS LISTED ABOVE.

It appears that the 3 or 4 contacts from the Tibetan Exile group who had suggested the event outside the embassy have absolutely nothing to do with the Tibetan Community, and are in fact, heavily involved with the Beijing Olympics themselves."


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## noriise (Apr 6, 2008)

Look here for protest and torch route (from guardian website)

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...27716&spn=0.085461,0.315857&z=11&source=embed


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## Pavlik (Apr 6, 2008)

Not going to make it down after all as my weekend went a bit pear shaped,
so no pics from me.

I hope the day passes peacefully, for everyone's sake.


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## scott_forester (Apr 6, 2008)

It's interesting to watch this develop. Murdoch's papers seem to already be labeling protesters as attacking the Olympic ideal - I wonder why

Also the Police have said they'll be on the look out for 'inapprotiate' banners. I guess that'll be anything below 'China is fab' 

I didn't like the idea of 2012 in the first place and seeing this circus I like it even less. BTW what on Earth are people like Konnie Huq doing carrying it, couldn't they have found some of the legion of people who give up their time in local sport to carry rather than pointless clebs?


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 6, 2008)

Just heard on the radio that police have moved in on protesters at Wembley....


Police report 8 arrests for breach of the peace.


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## magneze (Apr 6, 2008)

Watch News24 it's quite amusing. There currently seems to be someone throwing themselves at or in front of the torch every few mins. PR disaster for the Olympics ... serves them right.


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 6, 2008)

pootle said:


> Well quite...I was asking on another thread how to support Tibetans/let the Chinese govt know I'm pissed off but stuff like boycotting Chinese goods is only going to hit the average Chinese person most of whom are getting their human rights stamped on too
> 
> What are you to do?



as for me - and like many chinese folk that were raised in the UK - i'm not gonna join the 'free tibet' campaign. cos like the dalai lama, i agree that tibet is part of china. 

what are you to do? protest - it's your given right.

but tbh, the Chinese always see westerners as trying to meddle in their affairs - and are unlikely to give a toss/and they not lost face either.


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## Yossarian (Apr 6, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> as for me - and like many chinese folk that were raised in the UK - i'm not gonna join the 'free tibet' campaign. cos like the dalai lama, i agree that tibet is part of china.



Tiananmen Square's a part of China too - doesn't mean the human rights abuses aren't worth protesting about.


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## dweller (Apr 6, 2008)

if you're not there and want to keep an eye on the protests watch bbc news 24. someone almost got the torch from konnie huq. people are jumping out all along the route. chaos


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## editor (Apr 6, 2008)

It's outstanding entertainment. What a PR catastrophe!


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 6, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> Tiananmen Square's a part of China too - doesn't mean the human rights abuses aren't worth protesting about.



those issues are worth protesting about.
it's your democratic right to.


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 6, 2008)

this is like the BEST OLYMPIC TORCH RUN EVER!!

(fingers crossed the Chinese Ambassador turns up with an unexpected guest - Kim Jong-il!!!).


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## purves grundy (Apr 6, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> those issues are worth protesting about.


those in Tibet aren't?


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 6, 2008)

Magneze said:


> Watch News24 it's quite amusing. There currently seems to be someone throwing themselves at or in front of the torch every few mins. PR disaster for the Olympics ... serves them right.



You are right. A serious protest about a serious issue but watching the coverage is strangely amusing.


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## dweller (Apr 6, 2008)

they seem to have stopped the footage of the flame. technical difficulties . yeah that'd be right.


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 6, 2008)

purves grundy said:


> those in Tibet aren't?



tibet is part of china.
if people wish to protest it should be about the civil rights issues in china as a whole.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 6, 2008)

Is Gordon Brown going to run with the torch then ?

I bet Blair would have - and look a right tit in the tracksuit.


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## Yossarian (Apr 6, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> tibet is part of china.
> if people wish to protest it should be about the civil rights issues in china as a whole.



What's wrong with focusing on the country's repression of minority peoples? Tibet may be part of China but Tibetans certainly aren't Chinese.


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## purves grundy (Apr 6, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> tibet is part of china.
> if people wish to protest it should be about the civil rights issues in china as a whole.



Has anybody asked the Tibetans whether they want to be Chinese? This is about self-determination.


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 6, 2008)

purves grundy said:


> Has anybody asked the Tibetans whether they want to be Chinese? This is about self-determination.



that's cultural revolution for you - one voice. one people.

the tibetans weren't the only ones that have lost their culture.


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## dweller (Apr 6, 2008)

i get the sense of 'the show must go on' despite the total lack of any sense of Olympic harmony. loads of police. cold grey snowy weather. not a warm welcome. well done protestors. point made. if I didn't have the flu i'd be there too. denise Van outen sod off. next stop whitehall.


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## dweller (Apr 6, 2008)

trev mac and steve cram were subject to heavy protest after traf square. this happened off camera.


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## Augie March (Apr 6, 2008)

Well done to the protests.

Though I think targeting a young female TV presenter when attempting to steal the torch, probably wasn't the cleverest of moves really.


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## treelover (Apr 6, 2008)

It is revealing that for a relatively small protest, there are so many non violent direct action protests, yet on the Iraq protests of hundreds of thousands, so few, says it all about STWC


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## jæd (Apr 6, 2008)

Augie March said:


> Well done to the protests.
> 
> Though I think targeting a young female TV presenter when attempting to steal the torch, probably wasn't the cleverest of moves really.



I thought the fire estinguisher was a bit more creative. The reports from the girl who where taken down it doesn't seem she was too much affected or hurt.

I'll be heading off to Whitechapel to add my "boo's" to the mass...


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 6, 2008)

jæd said:


> I thought the fire estinguisher was a bit more creative. The reports from the girl who where taken down it doesn't seem she was too much affected or hurt.
> 
> I'll be heading off to Whitechapel to add my "boo's" to the mass...



Whitechapel is a possible hot spot over here in East London.


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## Garcia Lorca (Apr 6, 2008)

Augie March said:


> Well done to the protests.
> 
> Though I think targeting a young female TV presenter when attempting to steal the torch, probably wasn't the cleverest of moves really.



it wasnt the tv presenter who was the target, as far as the footage shows there wasnt a hand near her, it was the torch. Couldnt care less who the grab it off of, it was a good move. 

Fire extinguisher was good to see as well and it has turned out to be a PR nightmare. As people above have said, despite the seriousness of it all.. it is fcking hilarious viewing!


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 6, 2008)

WHy has no-one used a garden hose out of a first floor window?

Although I suspect the police have banned people having windows open along the route.


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## treelover (Apr 6, 2008)

Yes, it does at times remind you of that great British institution, the Ealing Comedy!




> Fire extinguisher was good to see as well and it has turned out to be a PR nightmare. As people above have said, despite the seriousness of it all.. it is fcking hilarious viewing!
> Reply With Quote


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## Augie March (Apr 6, 2008)

perry1 said:


> it wasnt the tv presenter who was the target, as far as the footage shows there wasnt a hand near her, it was the torch. Couldnt care less who the grab it off of, it was a good move.



It was a bit one-sided though! 

It's a protest about the oppression of people against a much stronger opposition. I think the sight of a man trying to wrestle something from the hands of a young woman, isn't quite the best image to send around the world really is it?


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## jæd (Apr 6, 2008)

Augie March said:


> It was a bit one-sided though!
> 
> It's a protest about the oppression of people against a much stronger opposition. I think the sight of a man trying to wrestle something from the hands of a young woman, isn't quite the best image to send around the world really is it?



She was still smiling when it was being "wrestled" from her, or at least had big grin....


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## magneze (Apr 6, 2008)

A protester dressed as a policeman tries to put the torch out with a fire extinguisher.


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## Augie March (Apr 6, 2008)

jæd said:


> She was still smiling when it was being "wrestled" from her, or at least had big grin....



Maybe she was in on it?


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## Garcia Lorca (Apr 6, 2008)

Augie March said:


> It was a bit one-sided though!
> 
> It's a protest about the oppression of people against a much stronger opposition. I think the sight of a man trying to wrestle something from the hands of a young woman, isn't quite the best image to send around the world really is it?



It looked more like the hands of the dozen or so men  who were surrounding the torch doing the wrestling. 

To be honest, as long as its the torch thats targetted and not the person its open season for snatching if at all possible.


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## miss giggles (Apr 6, 2008)

Quick interview on 24 with the tv presenter, she said "I fully understand the feeling, I hope something good comes of it".

Watching the clip again, she looks totally unsurprised and unafraid. Good on her.

I was meant to be going out this afternoon but I can't take my eyes off this.

I have every faith in East London. Makes me feel quite proud to be British.


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## Nigel (Apr 6, 2008)

stat said:


> i'll be there.  will try to knock up a banner too... i always regret not taking a banner with me.
> 
> any suggestions on what to write on it?  may just keep it simple with 'free tibet'



Support the liquidation of Hans and Muslims From The Tibetan Region
Support The Barbarity Of Feudal Tibetan Morals.


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## purves grundy (Apr 6, 2008)

Nigel said:


> Support the liquidation of Hans and Muslims From The Tibetan Region
> Support The Barbarity Of Feudal Tibetan Morals.



you're such a fucking tool


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## toblerone3 (Apr 6, 2008)

Tibet Torch rally just starting in the square which my flat overlooks in Kings Cross. About 400 people there.


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## david dissadent (Apr 6, 2008)

We were chanting "Shame!" very loudly as Trevor McDonald started off with the torch at Trafalgar. Bet you dont here it on the news.


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## The Black Hand (Apr 6, 2008)

The scuffles on the route of the Olympic flame put the anarchists to shame - here's a large movement with no leninist leaders or anarchists! 

No wonder it looked good, with ordinary people willing to have a go and put their liberty on the line. One even got his hands on the torch, fantastic live footage on bbc 24 news. That so many were willing to have a go DESPITE the amount of police makes future political possibilities look quite good. It is time that another issue became as mass as anti aparteid was and this could be it.


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## treelover (Apr 6, 2008)

Did I just spot The Ed protesting near the Aldwych?


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## Augie March (Apr 6, 2008)

Hang on though, do we even know if the guy who tried to grab the torch was even protesting? 

He could've been just some random nutter like that Irish guy who dressed up as a priest and tried to fight a marathon runner in the middle of a race.


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## treelover (Apr 6, 2008)

Disgracefully, Sky News are saying at least half the protesters are 'rentamob' troublemakers, anarchists, etc, but they all look like committed Free Tibet protests to me.


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## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2008)

fucking nice one guys, im sorry i wasnt there


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## JTG (Apr 6, 2008)

treelover said:


> Disgracefully, Sky News are saying at least half the protesters are 'rentamob' troublemakers, anarchists, etc, but they all look like committed Free Tibet protests to me.



yeah, anarchists can't possibly be free Tibet protestors


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## girasol (Apr 6, 2008)

Wonderful stuff!


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## The Black Hand (Apr 6, 2008)

treelover said:


> Disgracefully, Sky News are saying at least half the protesters are 'rentamob' troublemakers, anarchists, etc, but they all look like committed Free Tibet protests to me.



Sky give over, they were no anarchists there (or very very few). Like at J18 when the Leninist leadership was absent, here the anarchists were absent. So much for the London anarchist 'leadership' hahahahhahahaaha.


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## jæd (Apr 6, 2008)

Just got back from Aldgate. No protesters there... The BBC Coverage is very biased... Grrr...


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## jæd (Apr 6, 2008)

Sugarbabes have pulled out...


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## cantsin (Apr 6, 2008)

Augie March said:


> It was a bit one-sided though!
> 
> It's a protest about the oppression of people against a much stronger opposition. I think the sight of a man trying to wrestle something from the hands of a young woman, isn't quite the best image to send around the world really is it?



yeah , because little women are weak and should be left well alone - what patronising , irrelevant garbage , why dont you think about what actually happened to day instead of spouting this guff !


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## gentlegreen (Apr 6, 2008)

jæd said:


> Sugarbabes have pulled out...



Are they the new Spice Girls ?


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## cantsin (Apr 6, 2008)

I loved the 'Olympics'  inflatables the 'supporters/whatvers' all had today - foot long 'Samsung ' logo ,with  4 inch olympic logo at the very top  - says it all , wish I could have got one to bring home


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## Pavlik (Apr 6, 2008)

Magneze said:


> Watch News24 it's quite amusing. There currently seems to be someone throwing themselves at or in front of the torch every few mins. PR disaster for the Olympics ... serves them right.



there seemed to be a live feed blackout after the first three protesters got themselves on the telly.
the next live bit at 12.30ish showed a chinese guy holding the torch with a manic grin on his face.
all seemed very wrong.


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## London_Calling (Apr 6, 2008)

I love the logic and non-violence of the fire extinguisher  idea. Beautiful.

Also works as a metaphor for people who like that kind of thing (the flame of freedom in Tibet has been extinguished . . .), and the pefect money shot moment for the media.


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## noriise (Apr 6, 2008)

scott_forester said:


> It's interesting to watch this develop. Murdoch's papers seem to already be labeling protesters as attacking the Olympic ideal - I wonder why
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## cantsin (Apr 6, 2008)

and theo walcott can sod off as well , though I suppose his seasons well over now , needs something to do -


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## Pavlik (Apr 6, 2008)

these z list celebs and sports people are incredibly naive. either that or brainwashed


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## cantsin (Apr 6, 2008)

Pavlik said:


> these z list celebs and sports people are incredibly naive. either that or brainwashed



walcotts 18 yrs old   + on £50 k per week - people dying in tibet simply cant mean anything to him , no frame of reference , he's the perfect embodiment of the Olympic sporting ideal , as sponsored by samsung / china / The Man


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## Augie March (Apr 6, 2008)

cantsin said:


> yeah , because little women are weak and should be left well alone - what patronising , irrelevant garbage , why dont you think about what actually happened to day instead of spouting this guff !





Augie March said:


> Well done to the protests.



Err... I thought it was well carried off with the exception of that one incident, which I thought was a bit bollocks.


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## Iguana (Apr 6, 2008)

I was at Whitechapel Road and the atmosphere was so tense from the torch relay participants. People on the buses just looking out and looking down.  I think the day has been quite a trial for them.  I really think the public feeling on this was sorely under-estimated. 

On tv now where they're at the O2 arena and all the fireworks are going off looks so grim.  This whole thing has been a disaster for the Olympic supporters.  I only hope that the images of what has happened in London today inspires similar protests along the rest of the route.


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## Pavlik (Apr 6, 2008)

Iguana said:


> I only hope that the images of what has happened in London today inspires similar protests along the rest of the route.



Me too. 
The world really needs to stand together of issues like this.

They're off to Paris now arent they and the french are generally pretty good at protesting.


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## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2008)

haha nice one ... lol, france has quite a good "track record" in this regard doesn't it


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## cantsin (Apr 6, 2008)

Iguana said:


> I was at Whitechapel Road and the atmosphere was so tense from the torch relay participants. People on the buses just looking out and looking down.  I think the day has been quite a trial for them.  I really think the public feeling on this was sorely under-estimated.
> 
> On tv now where they're at the O2 arena and all the fireworks are going off looks so grim.  This whole thing has been a disaster for the Olympic supporters.  I only hope that the images of what has happened in London today inspires similar protests along the rest of the route.




i was at St Pauls ( having jogged about half a mile , so half dead on arrival ) , spotted Pete Thatchell , thought I'd plot up next to him,  it goes off 50 yds down the rd a bit , he starts to go into the rd , a few of us follow only for and half the Met to descend  on him with camera's etc , exit me stage left , sharpish ,2 fat  Essex  lads in full wedding regalia offering me a walk round the corner as I bundled past them , and now it seems from the news I  missed the most impressive bit all day , torch forced off road on to the bus etc - all very confusing


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## Pavlik (Apr 6, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> haha nice one ... lol, france has quite a good "track record" in this regard doesn't it



well they used to love it didn't they but I'm not so sure these days.


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## Iguana (Apr 6, 2008)

cantsin said:


> , and now it seems from the news I  missed the most impressive bit all day , torch forced off road on to the bus etc - all very confusing



I was at that bit.  Just before they arrived the amount of police keeping us off the road multiplied tenfold.  The torch carrier and her entourage ran passed us at speed.  And they were going so fast the larger numbers of police couldn't keep up with them to maintain their barrier.  So everyone started to run along so they could get onto the road and the torch carrier and her group were had to run back onto the bus.  At least that's what happened as far as I could see.  It was all very fast.

It looked kind of funny actually.  They were scrambling so hard to get on the bus, it looked as if they were running from cover from sniper fire.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 6, 2008)

jæd said:


> Just got back from Aldgate. No protesters there... The BBC Coverage is very biased... Grrr...



There were enough of us outside the Mosque on Whitechapel road to make our presence felt. I can't remmeber the last time I booed anything. It felt strangely good.


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## smokedout (Apr 6, 2008)

some pics from today


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## The Black Hand (Apr 6, 2008)

"March 27, 2008 at 9:29 pm 
I think an advertised hit at Ladbroke Grove would be a good idea - what with our tradition there and the rebellious nature of that area. Plus it would get on the radio/tv lunchtime news and help make the rest of the day go with a bang"

Just found this on the web - somebody knew about the Ladbroke Grove incident.


----------



## stat (Apr 6, 2008)

that demo was effing hilarious.  the crowd was awesome, and we really had the torch-carrying group on the run.

the torch-troupe had to resort to a lot of decoys to give the protestors the slip.  At the south-bank centre the torch was due to be carried/run across the front of the choirs and orchestras, in front of the assembled masses (with their samsung flags and lenovo toys... utter idiots), but this would have involved a brief walk through a police cordoned area of protestors, and having apparently already been 'assaulted' 30 times, the carry apparently said 'f--- that', and went a much more hidden route.  hah 

everywhere those in the official entourage looked they were surrounded by a great spectrum of protestors, all shouting 'shame' at them.  they must've absolutely hated the whole day.  good


----------



## stat (Apr 6, 2008)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7333432.stm said:
			
		

> "Beijing Olympic torch relay spokesman Qu Yingpu told the BBC: "This is not the right time, the right platform, for any people to voice their political views."



what a scary quote.  Qu Yingpu sounds a complete and utter shit.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 7, 2008)

Iguana said:


> Anybody planning on protesting along the Olympic torch route next Sunday?  I've been searching for details of any planned protests, but all I've found is the route on indymedia.  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/03/394849.html
> 
> I was thinking of going along to Oxford St before mid-day and maybe following through China town.  But would probably be too wimpy to protest if I was surrounded by shopping tourists and Olympics supporters.



I saw the torch run on tv this afternoon.

Well done, protestors.




I wonder if it was tough for them to find that many cops who could run that far, and still be able to throw a decent bodycheck?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2008)

How did the protest in France go - if it's happened?? anyone know?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 7, 2008)

Those chinese cops in blue were hilarious.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2008)

I know


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 7, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> How did the protest in France go - if it's happened?? anyone know?



France today I believe.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Those chinese cops in blue were hilarious.


Very restrained though - mostly concerned with keeping the torch visible.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

Attica said:


> It is time that another issue became as mass as anti aparteid was and this could be it.


yes because what's needed clearly is a rebranding exercise...  

It's not s though we don't have Palestine Dafur Tibet etc etc etc already but we shoudl place some kind of cultural relevance on these things and then brand the protest to appeal to middle classes who we can then sell the idea of compasionate caring inside a capitalist system.  Salves their consionences and allows the state sanctioned appropreate level of xenophobia too...

fuckign anarkids...


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 7, 2008)

Good stuff yesterday, especially the fire extinguisher - I think the bar has been set pretty high for protestors in cities on the rest of the torch's tour!


----------



## e19896 (Apr 7, 2008)

Pavlik said:


> not sure i understood you there.



see pm mate, i was stuck in a armchair watching the news fucking well done, well aggressive force of babylon once again, yer right we have free speech here just why was the live feed blocked then?


----------



## Raw SslaC (Apr 7, 2008)

I think disrupting the Olympic Touch Relay should become an Olympic Sport!

In France there will apparently be a security operation around the torch consisting of 65 police motor bikes, 80 security, 200 cops on roller blades!!
(Source: BBC news)

Well done everyone that was involved and solidarity with the Tibetans!


----------



## ska invita (Apr 7, 2008)

I cant remember the last time the media gave so much coverage to an action. Just goes to show: if you dont mind getting arrested (35 arrests made?), and your up for some well-aimed civil disobedience, you will at least get good coverage.

I guess it's true that the Olympics increase nationalism - after today I feel proud to be British! Britain may not do too well on the medal scoreboard, but I reckon we win on the 'most arrested' league.  

I really hope the people of China use the Olympics to launch into a huge wave of strikes and protests (during the games, whilst the world's media eyes are on them). Its fair enough that the games shouldn't be politicised - I have some respect for that - but what a Golden opportunity for the Chinese to really stand up strong. Hopefully the Party won't dare to repeat Tianamen during the games... or will they?


----------



## david dissadent (Apr 7, 2008)

The French police will allegedly have officers on roller blades guarding the flame.


----------



## JTG (Apr 7, 2008)

ska invita said:


> Its fair enough that the games shouldn't be politicised - I have some respect for that - but what a Golden opportunity for the Chinese to really stand up strong.



The Games are politicised by the people who run/host them so why shouldn't the rest of us politicise them as well?

This needs to be pointed out at every opportunity when people talk about keeping politics out of sport


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

JTG said:


> The Games are politicised by the people who run/host them so why shouldn't the rest of us politicise them as well?
> 
> This needs to be pointed out at every opportunity when people talk about keeping politics out of sport



indeed, it's like saying I may have blow up your house but you were over due on your libray books ... so we shouldn't look at the root cause we should only look at the near future...


----------



## JTG (Apr 7, 2008)

In the end, people talk about keeping politics out of sport but everything is political. That's what politics is, it's how you analyse life. So sport can't possibly not be political, same as anything else.


----------



## david dissadent (Apr 7, 2008)

I was standing in front of the South African embassy yesterday. It was a hard place to argue to keep politics out of sport.


----------



## JTG (Apr 7, 2008)

david dissadent said:


> I was standing in front of the South African embassy yesterday. It was a hard place to argue to keep politics out of sport.



well exactly. sport in apartheid South Africa was absolutely politicised so the rest of the world was entirely within its rights to reciprocate. There's still a lot of people in the rugby & cricket worlds who choose to ignore this.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 7, 2008)

Augie March said:


> Hang on though, do we even know if the guy who tried to grab the torch was even protesting?
> 
> He could've been just some random nutter like that Irish guy who dressed up as a priest and tried to fight a marathon runner in the middle of a race.




wtf??????????????what are you on?


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Apr 7, 2008)

The "olympic torch assistants"! wasnt that just ninjas in shellsuits?

looking at the bbc map of the route, they didnt actually manage to carry the torch very far through the streets!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 7, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> I think the bar has been set pretty high for protestors in cities on the rest of the torch's tour!


 Damn right!Yesterday morning was the best TV viewing I've seen in ages. It had me roaring watching the keystone cops at a complete loss and clearly out of their depth. The point was made spectacularly.
Well done everyone who supported tibet and made their voices heard. Managed to get down to Whitechapel myself as well.
This was a PR disaster for the Chinese authorities, just a shame that hardly any Chinese people will get to witness what went on.




Raw SslaC said:


> I think disrupting the Olympic Touch Relay should become an Olympic Sport!
> 
> In France there will apparently be a security operation around the torch consisting of 65 police motor bikes, 80 security, 200 cops on roller blades!!
> (Source: BBC news)



I'm loving the extreme sports/policing aspect to it...Our police on mountain bikes, the French on roller blades. I wonder how those in San francisco are going to handle it, jet propelled skateboards?


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Apr 7, 2008)

It was actually better than  most Olympic events. Watching the live helicopter pictures and seeing the layers build up around the flame (first the blue ninjas, then the yellow coppers, then finally the black ones) was quite good, but best of all was when you could see people taking massive run-ups down side streets and crashing into the coppers.

If these protesters had had a bit of rugby coaching, they could have easily got their mits on the torch. They were too spread out and they weren't drawing enough coppers into the contact to expose the torch.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> yes because what's needed clearly is a rebranding exercise...
> 
> It's not s though we don't have Palestine Dafur Tibet etc etc etc already but we shoudl place some kind of cultural relevance on these things and then brand the protest to appeal to middle classes who we can then sell the idea of compasionate caring inside a capitalist system.  Salves their consionences and allows the state sanctioned appropreate level of xenophobia too...
> 
> fuckign anarkids...




Gibbering irrelevances don't win arguments or dreams garf.


----------



## Augie March (Apr 7, 2008)

cantsin said:


> wtf??????????????what are you on?



It was only a passing thought, calm down dear.


----------



## Pavlik (Apr 7, 2008)

King Biscuit Time said:


> If these protesters had had a bit of rugby coaching, they could have easily got their mits on the torch.



I was thinking the same thing.
Three or four rugby forwards would have torn a big hole in that poxy defence, leaving a smaller guy free to dive in a 'ave the torch away. 

maybe next time eh


----------



## winjer (Apr 7, 2008)

Attica said:


> Sky give over, they were no anarchists there (or very very few). Like at J18 when the Leninist leadership was absent, here the anarchists were absent. So much for the London anarchist 'leadership' hahahahhahahaaha.


WTF? You weren't even there, so why are you making such bizarre pronouncements?


----------



## winjer (Apr 7, 2008)

Augie March said:


> Hang on though, do we even know if the guy who tried to grab the torch was even protesting?
> 
> He could've been just some random nutter like that Irish guy who dressed up as a priest and tried to fight a marathon runner in the middle of a race.


He had people to pass out press releases, so he's at least an organised nutter.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

Attica said:


> Gibbering irrelevances don't win arguments or dreams garf.



yet you persist with your comment free repeating postings of bones blog continually like some kind of anarchist spam bot... 

funny how you see no irony in your own postings...

however, this event and protest was like the hunting protests before made up of a significant number of people who frankly lifted not one finger and supported both the iraq and afgahnistan invasions with not so much as a peep... 

suddenly when their precious dali lama is attacked the hand wringling liberals start tuting loudly and saying it's abhorant...

christ even some of my mums friends who are in no way lefty or poltical in any manner went and had their little foot stamping protest... 

so back to my point: - your attempts to co-opt this current wave of popular support into a more cohesive front or block but once again failing to A) have anything relevant to put forward to appeal to them personally, and b) having nothing relevant to appeal or put forward to make it a cohesive action about solidarity generally. 

You spectacularlly fail nce again to make any capital other than the usual shameful tactic of being not in anyway shape or size involved and yet attempting to bask in the reflected glory as though you were it's prime architect.  

your utterly polarised thinking that this campagin needs to become the new anti partide campagin rather than the more important one might argue areas of the world which currently don't had middle and upper classes up in arms in case their yak knit ware ceases to be made in the traditional manner. 

This isn't to belittle the situation within tibet, which is shocking and has been since the invasion.   But to say that actually day to day this isn't the massiacre which is dafur this isn't the mass murder which is palestine, it isn't the civil war foisted upon Afganistan again or the continuation and open warfare which is iraq.

I know how bad it is first hand my mum used to live there, and has worked tirelessly for the tibetian people, a few of my friends are tibetian i'm well aware of the situation but day to day it isn't as bad as the many things which Britian is generally and in certain areas specifically responsible for and has influence over... 

just none of those have a lama looking over them, giving them good vibes and transandental like vibes man... so they aren't as fashionable...

so yeah what's needed is a rebranding... 

you hopeless fop...


the question is how many of these protestors will next time they turn on the telly see other protests and think hey they are misrepresenting that protest just as they did us, we support and show solidarity towards that protest and how many are going to be saying tut these uncivilised great unwashed with their dispruptive ways, why can't they prtest like us, we did it all peacefully and with out bother, aside from some jappery which got out of hand...

there will be rose tinted glassses to view this as being an exception which justifies the use of great measures to tighten up protest and any direct action in this country and the majority of hand wringing liberal do gooders who normal didn't protest but did on this occasion won't be their for you or anyone else as soon as it falls off their fashionista trendy causes list in 4 months time... 

that's the problem with celebrity type causes which are reliant on whim, as soon as it fals out of favour it falls off the table... 

this tbh in my mind has broguth out more fair weather activists than i have ever previously seen...


----------



## Dan D. Lion (Apr 7, 2008)

I bet most of the 'protestors' and their 'supporters' here will continue to hypocritically support Chinese business.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 7, 2008)

Augie March said:


> It was only a passing thought, calm down dear.




that and your continual  "poor connie huq  " bullshit , why do you bother ?


----------



## CharlieAddict (Apr 7, 2008)

Dan D. Lion said:


> I bet most of the 'protestors' and their 'supporters' here will continue to hypocritically support Chinese business.



the protest is about the Chinese Administration in tibet *not* boycotting chinese produces/goods.


----------



## e19896 (Apr 7, 2008)

winjer said:


> He had people to pass out press releases, so he's at least an organised nutter.


----------



## purves grundy (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> that's the problem with celebrity type causes which are reliant on whim, as soon as it fals out of favour it falls off the table...


Although I'm unsure as to whether these protests represent or can be harnessed to represent something 'more', I think you're seriously misrepresenting most of the people out there protesting if you think they're fair-weather, trendy-cause supporters, garf.


----------



## Dan D. Lion (Apr 7, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> the protest is about the Chinese Administration in tibet *not* boycotting chinese produces/goods.



Convenient.


----------



## Augie March (Apr 7, 2008)

cantsin said:


> that and your continual  "poor connie huq  " bullshit , why do you bother ?



Ahem. 

On second viewing, I actually didn't think the whole incident was that bad.

Oh and it's Konnie, with a K.


----------



## bluestreak (Apr 7, 2008)

purves grundy said:


> Although I'm unsure as to whether these protests represent or can be harnessed to represent something 'more', I think you're seriously misrepresenting most of the people out there protesting if you think they're fair-weather, trendy-cause supporters, garf.


 

I agree with this, though my evidence is purely anecdotal - anarchists i spoke to on friday had plans for sunday, anarchists i spoke to on sunday had just been down there.  my housemate was out there with the free tibet people and he's not a normal cause-supporter (and it certainly wasn't fair weather, it was freezing).  There is a big cross-section here, which will always include the trendy-cause types, but to dismiss this as a purely fashionable thing seems very short-sighted to me.  this is a multi-faceted issue that attracts a wide-range of support.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

purves grundy said:


> Although I'm unsure as to whether these protests represent or can be harnessed to represent something 'more', I think you're seriously misrepresenting most of the people out there protesting if you think they're fair-weather, trendy-cause supporters, garf.



really?

how many supporters does the free tibet campagin have?

how many of those are A list selbs with the lama on their speed dial... 

It really is the number one cause for saying i'm active within the protest movment but not actually doing bugger all except tuting loudly... 

when was the last time the beatie boys (good buddists supporters of the free tibet campagin) or madonna (kaballah and support of free tibet) or indeed any of the sleb factory outputs who stood up and said no go... boycott china... indeed is it still the cash cow which the sleb status of the lama gets as lucritive in terms of sales as it once was... 

as i said it's no disresepct to those who are proactive or are truely working towards freedom for tibet however, it's not like this cause hasn't already been rebranded and repackaged for the modern world it doens't need the likes of atticas insistance on rebranding it some more to appeal what to more plastic protestors... 

and there are a considerable amount of fair weather protestors attached to this issue. 

and as i said comparitively there are more important issues which should if rebranding the anti apartide campagin is atticas goal which would be far more deserving which doesn't have the legions of sleb followers or their cash cow cult yougurt weavers in tow...


----------



## Dan D. Lion (Apr 7, 2008)

All of whom have laptops, televisions, digital cameras and MP3 players made in China.


----------



## CharlieAddict (Apr 7, 2008)

Dan D. Lion said:


> Convenient.



primark. nike. iPod. sony LCD screens. goji berries. diesel jeans.

not to mention Bruce Lee, Jet Li and Donnie Yen films.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> I agree with this, though my evidence is purely anecdotal - anarchists i spoke to on friday had plans for sunday, anarchists i spoke to on sunday had just been down there.  my housemate was out there with the free tibet people and he's not a normal cause-supporter (and it certainly wasn't fair weather, it was freezing).  There is a big cross-section here, which will always include the trendy-cause types, but to dismiss this as a purely fashionable thing seems very short-sighted to me.  this is a multi-faceted issue that attracts a wide-range of support.



it really isn't multifaceted at all there's one issue tibet a sovergin free country is occupied by the biggest imperial force on the planet and no one gives to fucks as long as the lama keeps his sleb status and they get to chant na meh hoi ren ge ko in sympathy.

of all the 'causes' tibet has the largest as i have said plastic protest be seen to be doing good support base of any of them...


----------



## Dan D. Lion (Apr 7, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> primark. nike. iPod. sony LCD screens. goji berries. diesel jeans.
> 
> not to mention Bruce Lee, Jet Li and Donnie Yen films.



Bruce Lee was from Hong Kong - none of his films were made in China. What's your point?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

Dan D. Lion said:


> Bruce Lee was from Hong Kong - none of his films were made in China. What's your point?



erm hong kong is in china even when the british rented it of the chinese...


----------



## bluestreak (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> of all the 'causes' tibet has the largest as i have said plastic protest be seen to be doing good support base of any of them...


 
Possibly.  Is that a problem for those who aren't?  Or those who believe that Tibet shouldn't be ruled from China or by the Dalai Lama?


----------



## Dan D. Lion (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> erm hong kong is in china even when the british rented it of the chinese...



But buying a Bruce Lee isn't funding the PRC is it?


----------



## CharlieAddict (Apr 7, 2008)

Dan D. Lion said:


> Bruce Lee was from Hong Kong - none of his films were made in China. What's your point?



i made my point already.
that protesters aren't hypocrtical if they buy chinese goods.

and as for brucie i can't recall any of his movies where he wasn't a nationalist in some way or another.


----------



## Dan D. Lion (Apr 7, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> i made my point already.
> that protesters aren't hypocrtical if they buy chinese goods.
> 
> and as for brucie i can't recall any of his movies where he wasn't a nationalist in some way or another.



Of course they are hypocritical. I bet they don't buy stuff from Israel or Burma.

How the hell did you work out that Bruce Lee was a 'nationalist' in his films?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> Possibly.  Is that a problem for those who aren't?  Or those who believe that Tibet shouldn't be ruled from China or by the Dalai Lama?



it totally is a problem with in the context of the comments made about making this tpoic the 'new anti apartide' campagin... as attica suggested... 

hence the reaction to the stupidity of the suggestion as well as the pointing out why this cause of all causes would see least benifit from such a factious suggestion by the armchair anarkid...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

Dan D. Lion said:


> But buying a Bruce Lee isn't funding the PRC is it?



well as we must assume that his products are proably all made with in china it proably is... indirectly although don't one of the buddest monistaries own the rights to his stuff...


----------



## bluestreak (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> it totally is a problem with in the context of the comments made about making this tpoic the 'new anti apartide' campagin... as attica suggested...
> 
> hence the reaction to the stupidity of the suggestion as well as the pointing out why this cause of all causes would see least benifit from such a factious suggestion by the armchair anarkid...


 

Anti-apartheid was a campaign that was very right on and trendy, and much supported by fair-weather protesters.


----------



## bluestreak (Apr 7, 2008)

Re: boycotts.  Given the ubiquitous nature of chinese goods, is it necessary for anyone who disapproves of the chinese regime to have never or ever buy or own goods made in china?  is a cut off point in line with political awaking acceptable, can they still have second hand or freecycled goods, or anything like this?

Is this another of those allegations, like the ones against anti-capitalists or anarchists who have at some stage possibly bought something or gone to school and therefore are not allowed to have any criticism of a system they are integrally linked to and should fuck off back to russia where they belong?


----------



## Dan D. Lion (Apr 7, 2008)

They (the yoghurt weavers) wouldn't support the Chinese tourism industry, or their investments, so why support their consumer goods industries?


----------



## purves grundy (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> really?
> 
> how many supporters does the free tibet campagin have?
> 
> ...



There are many reasons why certain causes gain a disproportionate amount of coverage than others at particular times. It's not surprising that we're hearing more about repression in Tibet in the run-up to the Olympics, and you can hardly blame the Tibetan independence movement - which isn't composed of celebrities and glory-seekers, look beyond the froth - for wanting to get the most out of this. The more important issues you talk about aren't likely to be mobilised around this event. And really, up until recently, what kind of coverage has Tibet had in the news despite the bleatings of Richard Gere, Bjork et al (which make me  too)? Very little. Prospects for success - beyond minimal. Maybe that'll change... 

Anyhow, I don't know much about the Tibetan movement in this country, but I do know about the Burmese democracy movement which sometimes suffers from the same snidey comments the Tibetan movement gets. You're only in it for the monks etc. It was obvious that after last September's 'support' things would eventually peter out, but while it lasted - fucking marvellous. What good did it do?Ssadly very little. But the political situation in China and Tibet isn't the same as in Burma, more elbow room, leadership more swayed by criticism, more organised diaspora groups and support groups. Who knows what it might lead to?

Clifford Bob's 'The Marketing of Rebellion' nicely picks apart this phenomenon. 

As for the wider implications on protest, I dunno and I'm not that bothered to be honest. I just relish human rights making the front pages.


----------



## bluestreak (Apr 7, 2008)

Dan D. Lion said:


> They (the yoghurt weavers) wouldn't support the Chinese tourism industry, or their investments, so why support their consumer goods industries?


 
That wasn't answering my question.

Would you like me to rephrase it?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> Anti-apartheid was a campaign that was very right on and trendy, and much supported by fair-weather protesters.



which would be why the rebraqnding of the free tibet campagin by practtica et al would be a further bad thing to happen right... so you agree... good...


----------



## Dan D. Lion (Apr 7, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> That wasn't answering my question.
> 
> Would you like me to rephrase it?



Go on then.


----------



## bluestreak (Apr 7, 2008)

Chinese goods are an essential part of the British capitalist system, and are inclredibly hard to avoid.

is it therefore necessary to put up and shut up re: the chinese government unless you stop buying ALL chinese goods, or are there degrees?

For example, if my computer was made in china, but i didn't pay for it but got it out of a skip, could i still have an opinion on china's government?


----------



## Dan D. Lion (Apr 7, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> Chinese goods are an essential part of the British capitalist system, and are inclredibly hard to avoid.
> 
> is it therefore necessary to put up and shut up re: the chinese government unless you stop buying ALL chinese goods, or are there degrees?
> 
> For example, if my computer was made in china, but i didn't pay for it but got it out of a skip, could i still have an opinion on china's government?



Do you want my permission or something?


----------



## bluestreak (Apr 7, 2008)

Well, seeing as you seem to telling people what they are and aren't allowed to do I thought that I might see if you had a consistent position that had been given some thought.  Seeing as you don't, I've clearly got nothing to learn here from you.


----------



## bluestreak (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> which would be why the rebraqnding of the free tibet campagin by practtica et al would be a further bad thing to happen right... so you agree... good...


 
But the anti-apartheid thing was quite successful.  I'm not sure what you (or indeed most people on this thread) actually want from these protesters.


----------



## Dan D. Lion (Apr 7, 2008)

People are allowed to be hypocrites. You carry on!


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> Re: boycotts.  Given the ubiquitous nature of chinese goods, is it necessary for anyone who disapproves of the chinese regime to have never or ever buy or own goods made in china?  is a cut off point in line with political awaking acceptable, can they still have second hand or freecycled goods, or anything like this?
> 
> Is this another of those allegations, like the ones against anti-capitalists or anarchists who have at some stage possibly bought something or gone to school and therefore are not allowed to have any criticism of a system they are integrally linked to and should fuck off back to russia where they belong?



it's more that the descernment with in these movements doesn't seem to parallel their own lives.   for example the ladies that me mum went along with are blue rinse tories with nothing good to say about people from norfolk let alone outside of the m25... hell they view the scots irish with suspicscion and one of them a vallies girl doesn't really like the english let alone the southern welsh let alone anyone else unless of course they are a paid up member of the gong banging cult at which point then these people aren't the flithy immigrants that are the invading hoardes but the poor meek defensceless tykes who need our help... 

ignornign even the hideously well meaning poor little tykes attitude whcih pervades this area of activism which is as we all conceed i'm sure just racism under a different guise.

it's that they cannot or utterly refuse to apply what they have learned to other aspects of their lives... of course id cards are a good thing if oyu have nothign to hide.... etc  of course we should issue asbos to children we can't have them hang roudn the streets, of course we should limit immigration from other eurpean states we'll be over run... of course we should liberate tibet because they are powerless against the evil yellow peril.... 

there seems to be a flaw in the comparitive cognative abilites of the some of the people involved which doesn't allow them to see greater solidarity ... 

adn no they wouldn't think twice about buying an ipod whilst complaining at the treatment of the tibetains...


----------



## CharlieAddict (Apr 7, 2008)

Dan D. Lion said:


> How the hell did you work out that Bruce Lee was a 'nationalist' in his films?



Fist of Fury - after returning to occupied china, he inspires a Chinese uprising by beating up the Japanese and Germans but sadly, he gets shot by the army in doing so.

Enter the Dragon - international contest with fighters from all over the globe. germans vs english vs chinese vs thai vs american. cos it's a brucie film, who wins?

The Big Boss - chinese immigrants getting buggered and killed in a foreign country/boss - that is til brucie comes along.

he wasn't as nationalistic as Jet Li but that's cos he only made 4 films.
but they are marketed the same.


----------



## bluestreak (Apr 7, 2008)

Dan D. Lion said:


> People are allowed to be hypocrites. You carry on!


 
Cheers, I will do.

Meanwhile, I'll assume you're posting that from a workers collective somewhere.


----------



## bluestreak (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> etc etc adn no they wouldn't think twice about buying an ipod whilst complaining at the treatment of the tibetains...


 
So?  Some people don't think things through very well.  That's where you come in dude, and me, and people who do the connection.

Plenty of people out there aren't anarchists, or hardcore socialists, communists etc etc.  They're liberals, and they want democratic capitalism.  Of course, they haven;t seen the full picture, so enlighten them.  Let them protest, because they're right, the Tibetans should be allowed self-determination and the chinese government are shits.  However, remind them that they profit from china, and that there are wider issues here.

Protest isn't just for those who have every answer and know everything about the world.

Let Attica try and co-opt it all, it won't work, anarchists aren't good at co-opting thigns, leave that for teh swappies.


----------



## JTG (Apr 7, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> So?  Some people don't think things through very well.  That's where you come in dude, and me, and people who do the connection.
> 
> Plenty of people out there aren't anarchists, or hardcore socialists, communists etc etc.  They're liberals, and they want democratic capitalism.  Of course, they haven;t seen the full picture, so enlighten them.  Let them protest, because they're right, the Tibetans should be allowed self-determination and the chinese government are shits.  However, remind them that they profit from china, and that there are wider issues here.
> 
> ...



post of the day, exactly what I was driving at one various posts I made this morning around this issue


----------



## Pavlik (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> this tbh in my mind has brought out more fair weather activists than i have ever previously seen...


It brought me out and I wouldnt say I was a fair weather activist or that I fit into any of the stereotypes I've read on this thread.

What's a real activist like btw? 
Someone who rampages about the place, chaining themselves to things, no matter what the cause?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> But the anti-apartheid thing was quite successful.  I'm not sure what you (or indeed most people on this thread) actually want from these protesters.



the anti apartide campagin was largley a flop.  the work put in comparative to the level of attention it got would have if matched in terms of resources created a situation where the apartide system would have collasped near instantaiously, the reason apartide was aboloished is was that it was affecting trade due to sanctions, not because SA had cleaned up it's act and people where getting a better deal... 

the same will go for China if it agreed to have a council which was their puppet but only staffed by indignious people then the furor would died down nearly as quickly, never mind the in equity of oppertunity never mind the sublimation and cultural destruction of an entire nation, etc, etc, etc... 

the anti apartide campagin also failed to recognise the inequity of oppertunity meanign that if under apartide you were poor black and homeless then now under modern SA you'll be Black homeless and poor... never mind that the situation was created by the inequity of oppertunity during Apartide never mind that no money was ever allocated to providing set up start up and continuation schemes for those most disadvantaged by the former regieme... 

so tibet might get freedom of sorts in order to assume the limpic's go off with out a hitch but that liberation will be at such a detrimental cost they'll be begging china to invade again ... and as soon as it comes to sorting out the shit after the intial victory again all these protestors and similar will be no where to be seen... 

how many antiapartide camapginers are still actively attemting to win equality of oppertunity with in modern SA comparitively to the extent of the campagin...


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> erm hong kong is in china even when the british rented it of the chinese...



It's still really a different 'country' though - own currency, own laws, etc.  Almost impossible for mainlanders to move there...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

Pavlik said:


> What's a real activist like btw?
> Someone who rampages about the place, chaining themselves to things, no matter what the cause?



nope, someone who is aware of the wider issues and can equate their own expericnes to the soldiarity with in all people oppressed, rather than their pick and mix selection of 'good causes' they support.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> the anti apartide campagin was largley a flop.  the work put in comparative to the level of attention it got would have if matched in terms of resources created a situation where the apartide system would have collasped near instantaiously, the reason apartide was aboloished is was that it was affecting trade due to sanctions



What was the main aim of the mainstream anti-aparthid movement you fucking gom? Oh yes, it was for serious economic sanctions.

garf, stop talking shit about stuff that you weren't involved in.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> nope, someone who is aware of the wider issues and can equate their own expericnes to the soldiarity with in all people oppressed, rather than their pick and mix selection of 'good causes' they support.



Yiu equate yoursefl wirth all opprees people -you equal them? Only some utltra-posh kid could even begin to think like that. Maybe you are Buhhda?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> So?  Some people don't think things through very well.  That's where you come in dude, and me, and people who do the connection.



no we can't come in in this instance, we aren't within a social grouping (for the most part) which would allow access in order to discuss these matters. 

this is a closed club which privledge and status like all other aspects of that system dicate the influence you have. 



bluestreak said:


> Plenty of people out there aren't anarchists, or hardcore socialists, communists etc etc.  They're liberals, and they want democratic capitalism.  Of course, they haven;t seen the full picture, so enlighten them.  Let them protest, because they're right, the Tibetans should be allowed self-determination and the chinese government are shits.  However, remind them that they profit from china, and that there are wider issues here.



people aren't intrested inshades of gray... they rarely are... 

they like to know that they are supporting the goodies and they are against the baddies.... 



bluestreak said:


> Protest isn't just for those who have every answer and know everything about the world.



ture enough, protest shouldn't be co-otped by groups for ultimately their own ends or benifits.  If this was a demo where the Swappies were in asendance and attempting to co-opt their lifestyle poltics on to the tibet issue there'd be rightly uproar and yet when the 'liberal concerned masses' do precisely the same we applaude them for getting involved.  Like human compassion/solidarity is something which needs to have damacus like conversion about... 



bluestreak said:


> Let Attica try and co-opt it all, it won't work, anarchists aren't good at co-opting thigns, leave that for teh swappies.



no.  Attica and other's like them (if they can really exist in the real world!!) co-opt things left right and centre to run with as their own personal fifedoms of power...

it becomes a topp trumphs type one up manship.....


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> What was the main aim of the mainstream anti-aparthid movement you fucking gom? Oh yes, it was for serious economic sanctions.
> 
> garf, stop talking shit about stuff that you weren't involved in.



where those sanctions effective in creating an equity of oppertuntiy within SA?

has that happened even now?

if you are poor black and from a run down neighbourhood now are you likely to be able to intergrate and achive more than the lot you were born with in comparison to say a white middle class person in SA today? not talking about the odd exception but generally... 

the answer is no.  

ergo the anti apartide campagin ultimately failed the disparity is still there...


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> So?  Some people don't think things through very well.  That's where you come in dude, and me, and people who do the connection.
> 
> Plenty of people out there aren't anarchists, or hardcore socialists, communists etc etc.  They're liberals, and they want democratic capitalism.  Of course, they haven;t seen the full picture, so enlighten them.  Let them protest, because they're right, the Tibetans should be allowed self-determination and the chinese government are shits.  However, remind them that they profit from china, and that there are wider issues here.
> 
> ...




absolutely!!


----------



## Matt S (Apr 7, 2008)

BTW, whenever I watched the coverage on this, I saw various people interviewing Lord Coe, with him repeating the phrase "politics and sports should never mix".

Seriously, did no-one point out to him that he became a voting member of the House of Lords THROUGH HIS SPORTING SUCCESS?

Wanker.

Matt


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Yiu equate yoursefl wirth all opprees people -you equal them? Only some utltra-posh kid could even begin to think like that. Maybe you are Buhhda?



you can see the paralles between the occupation of say tibet, palestine, iraq, and afghanistan and can see the root causes for such.  

that doesn't require buddist levels of anything... it merely requires that you can see the similarlites between the situatuions and can say what is true for x is also true for y...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> where those sanctions effective in creating an equity of oppertuntiy within SA?
> 
> has that happened even now?
> 
> ...



No of course it hasn't. Irrelavent.

You argue that apartheid fell because of sanctions not the anti-apartheid movement- i tell you that one aim of the anti-apartheid movement was those sanctions that you identified as effective.

Yiou talk shit abiout something else in the next post - as usual.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> you can see the paralles between the occupation of say tibet, palestine, iraq, and afghanistan and can see the root causes for such.
> 
> that doesn't require buddist levels of anything... it merely requires that you can see the similarlites between the situatuions and can say what is true for x is also true for y...



WTF has that got to do with your post

that



> nope, someone who is aware of the wider issues and can equate their own expericnes to the soldiarity with in all people oppressed, rather than their pick and mix selection of 'good causes' they support.



You are the unversal christ ior something? Come to redeem us all?


----------



## CharlieAddict (Apr 7, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> It's still really a different 'country' though - own currency, own laws, etc.  Almost impossible for mainlanders to move there...



is it that impossible?

cos when i was in tai po - a dominant Hakka market town in the New Territories - me mum's mate, a headtacher of a kiddy school said that it was rare to see kids of HK origin.
that most HK men marry mainlanders cos HK women prefer the office place than the kitchen.

and it's quite a simple procedure for mainlanders to get HK ID - student or worker.

alot of HK people do believe that their identity is dying/employment market is changing for the worse.

and many do prefer the good ole pre-1997 days...


----------



## bluestreak (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> nope, someone who is aware of the wider issues and can equate their own expericnes to the soldiarity with in all people oppressed, rather than their pick and mix selection of 'good causes' they support.


 

And so until someone passes the garf test they have to stay at home studying books?

They don't know there's going to be an exam later, they don't realise it.

The Free Tibet Campaign is a liberal movement, not a revolutionary one.  It uses slebs because that drags people in and strengthens its single issue.  That's all, it's not a middle-class conspiracy or anything.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> No of course it hasn't. Irrelavent.
> 
> You argue that apartheid fell because of sanctions not the anti-apartheid movement- i tell you that one aim of the anti-apartheid movement was those sanctions that you identified as effective.
> 
> Yiou talk shit abiout something else in the next post - as usual.



so the system has fallen but the symptoms remain... 

Is that effective as a change of poltics with in a country which as a campagin was seeking to remove the disparity and divisions between the power which was and the power to be?  because the current situation hasn't removed that disparity....

look at the results of the action it speaks for it self, the disparity is still there it's still not achived what was the inital aim.  ergo it failed. or if you are being cheerfully optimistic then it hasn't suceeded yet.

I'm not sure that you can nu labour style say well we achived the semantic aim with out forefilling the implicit and idealistic aim of the event so therefore it worked cut's it... tbh... 




butchersapron said:


> You are the unversal christ ior something? Come to redeem us all?



so you cannot in anyway see any parallels between the occupation of Tibet and the occupation of palestine?  The kurdish situation and the tibetian situation?  

nothing at all. 

Indeed one needs to be some kind of popup mystical figure in order to see those parallels that's what you are saying... 

ok...

if i were you i'd not stop the medication yet, you clearly have a long way to go...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2008)

Nope. Not worth my time. Or yours typing it out.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> And so until someone passes the garf test they have to stay at home studying books?
> 
> They don't know there's going to be an exam later, they don't realise it.
> 
> The Free Tibet Campaign is a liberal movement, not a revolutionary one.  It uses slebs because that drags people in and strengthens its single issue.  That's all, it's not a middle-class conspiracy or anything.



yes that's precisely what i'm saying... 

not at all that like the hunting protests before them that a considerable number of people on both will not support other similar causes or even be able to equate their chosen cause or the inherant problems actions etc in it to other causes... 

I'm not suggesting a middle class conspirisy i'm merely highlighting the middle class hypocrasy of it... 

dafur, not a flicker
palestine, not a flicker
war, not a flicker 
kurdistain, not a flicker
lama get's attacked by china, uproar...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Nope. Not worth my time. Or yours typing it out.



so once again just an excuse to name call and attack without actually having anything to contribute... 

mind you in essence you haven't been able to assert that the point is invaild... 

only that there's a semantic argument to be had... 

you are fast becoming the new L&L ... 

only with even less humour...


----------



## bluestreak (Apr 7, 2008)

Yes, there should be stronger movements for all of those things, but for christs sake when people do get off their arses and do something, don't tell them to fuck off home because they're not doing enough!  Educate, discuss, preach, teach, co-opt, get some sleb to endorse your movement in the Guardian weekend supplement, but for for the love of all things unholy don't turn your nose up at them!


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> Yes, there should be stronger movements for all of those things, but for christs sake when people do get off their arses and do something, don't tell them to fuck off home because they're not doing enough!  Educate, discuss, preach, teach, co-opt, get some sleb to endorse your movement in the Guardian weekend supplement, but for for the love of all things unholy don't turn your nose up at them!



Maybe i'm coming accross as prolier than thou, that isn't the intent it's more to point out protesters have been doing what since tibet was invaded?

so why now the popular support?  

will this support base still be there in 6 months let alone a years time... 

or is it that like the anit war protests before where millions turned up people now feel they have had their say and done their bit and it's back to dancing on ice stars or whatever it is this week...

long term this will have a detrimental effect on the cause, with fewer people being long term proactive supporters of the cause... 

i like my actions to be effective... 

on balance is this protest effective within China with in Chinas govt within world wide govt opinion?

or is it the in effect rantings of chained men?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> so once again just an excuse to name call and attack without actually having anything to contribute...
> 
> mind you in essence you haven't been able to assert that the point is invaild...
> 
> ...



Nope, just experience of what little lies at the heart of your oddity.

You made a claim, i called it bollocks. It was bollocks

You then invent a self-justifying fantasy world. Again.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 7, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> is it that impossible?
> 
> cos when i was in tai po - a dominant Hakka market town in the New Territories - me mum's mate, a headtacher of a kiddy school said that it was rare to see kids of HK origin.
> that most HK men marry mainlanders cos HK women prefer the office place than the kitchen.
> ...



Fair enough - you probably know more about it than me - but I do know that some FTs who've got (quite good) teaching jobs in HK have had problems within bringing their mainland Chinese wives into HK to live with them, even temporarily...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Nope, just experience of what little lies at the heart of your oddity.
> 
> You made a claim, i called it bollocks. It was bollocks
> 
> You then invent a self-justifying fantasy world. Again.



i have done nothing of the sort.  

you claimed it was bollocks i asked you to substatiate that with real world results you refuse stating that it's all made up....

whatever butch once again nothing to add... 

yet such a disdane in which you attempt to insinuate you might have had anything of worth to comment on...

but come up short as usual...

stroll on son stroll on....


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> yes that's precisely what i'm saying...
> 
> not at all that like the hunting protests before them that a considerable number of people on both will not support other similar causes or even be able to equate their chosen cause or the inherant problems actions etc in it to other causes...
> 
> ...



Palestine not a flicker? Hmm.  How many column inches do you think Palestine has produced over the years, compared with Tibet?  I'd guess that Palestine probably outnumbers Tibet in terms of (pro Palestine) editorials etc by a factor of 30/40-1.

If Israel was hosting the games, I'm 99.99999999999% certain that there would be more and bigger protests.

As to the war - what are you smoking? Are you forgetting the 2 million that marched against it?

Kurdistan is too complex for most to get their heads round methinks...


----------



## david dissadent (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> where those sanctions effective in creating an equity of oppertuntiy within SA?
> 
> has that happened even now?
> 
> ...


 millions and I mean millions of people have gotten running water and electricity since 1994. They are permitted to walk around at night, to buy alcohol, to vote, to marry who ever they choose, have tarred roads and vast other improvements.

Its the opposite of perfect but they have a goverment they have chosen which is taking on the monumental task of lifting 40 000 000 people out of desperate poverty.

Its progress. 

For gods sakes many of them even get anti retrovirals now......

Because they all dont live in posh houses the struggle failed? Get real.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

david dissadent said:


> millions and I mean millions of people have gotten running water and electricity since 1994. They are permitted to walk around at night, to buy alcohol, to vote, to marry who ever they choose, have tarred roads and vast other improvements.
> 
> Its the opposite of perfect but they have a goverment they have chosen which is taking on the monumental task of lifting 40 000 000 people out of desperate poverty.
> 
> ...



nope that's not what i have said either.

I have put it very simply 

there is still no equity of oppertunity with in modern SA in anything which resembles a sustantive difference between pre and post apartide...

clear yet?

ergo the ideal of the anti apartide campagin has ultimatley failed.

butch and now you it seems would like the parameters of discussion to be narrowed to only the intial aim with out wider contextualiseation, which is fine, it doesn't however change the point i have made or render it moot...


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 7, 2008)

Garf you don't think there is now a black middle/upper middle class in SA?  I think there is.  It will take time to grow more but at least it is there, which is more than could be said under apartheid.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> Palestine not a flicker? Hmm.  How many column inches do you think Palestine has produced over the years, compared with Tibet?  I'd guess that Palestine probably outnumbers Tibet in terms of (pro Palestine) editorials etc by a factor of 30/40-1.
> 
> If Israel was hosting the games, I'm 99.99999999999% certain that there would be more and bigger protests.



maybe but in terms of outward protest?

how many large scale disruptive events have their been in the UK about palestine?  




RenegadeDog said:


> As to the war - what are you smoking? Are you forgetting the 2 million that marched against it?



how many marched on the second march?

the third?

the forth?

the fifth?

etc etc.... 

not any indication of fair weather activism right... 



RenegadeDog said:


> Kurdistan is too complex for most to get their heads round methinks...




no it's not it's bloody simple the kurdish people are the largest indiginos group without any prescribed homeland in the world. which was greatly made worse by the division of traditional kurdistain and seperating the Kurdish peoples to be subsumed by 4 other coutries.  The worst of which and up til TWAT the number one human rights abuser in the world Turkey had decided to sytemicaly destroy and irradicate kurdish people...  

the parallels between what's happening in Tibet and Kurdistain are near identical... systemic iviseration of an entire culture in order for it to be subsumed by the wider state...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> Garf you don't think there is now a black middle/upper middle class in SA?  I think there is.  It will take time to grow more but at least it is there, which is more than could be said under apartheid.



comparitively are they actually a susbtantive group?

or are they the minority... still...


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 7, 2008)

About palestine - again, this tibet thing has only surfaced because of the olympics.  Before that I can't remember anything, ever, about it.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> About palestine - again, this tibet thing has only surfaced because of the olympics.  Before that I can't remember anything, ever, about it.



indeed.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 7, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> About palestine - again, this tibet thing has only surfaced because of the olympics.  Before that I can't remember anything, ever, about it.



and yet with such a commited and stallwort campagin such as free tibet and all their sleb following and all these commit new activists who weren't there to just tut loudly you'll be hearing loads more right, it's reached critical mass now yeah... 

or will it like the observer end up as a distant memory in time for the next addition....


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 7, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> If Israel was hosting the games, I'm 99.99999999999% certain that there would be more and bigger protests.


 Spot on. Although I'll stick my neck out  just a little and say i'm 10000000000000000000000000000000000000% sure of this. 



> Are you forgetting the 2 million that marched against it?


 Was possibly more.



> Kurdistan is too complex for most to get their heads round methinks...


I think it's a question of exposure as well,  information was not as widely circulated.

IMO the UK and the US used it to help justify their invasions, and prove what a pig Saddam was. I'm not sure they actually gave a shit to be honest.


----------



## david dissadent (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> nope that's not what i have said either.
> 
> I have put it very simply
> 
> ...


You are a bloody idiot.


You are totally fucking clueless about the current situation in South Africa or the goals of the liberation struggle.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 7, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> maybe but in terms of outward protest?
> 
> how many large scale disruptive events have their been in the UK about palestine?
> 
> ...




not gettiing involved here , but how can someone so obviously wrong   keep at it for so,so long -  its twaddle , such a ridiculous  , old , meaningless premise,  that because one or other "cause" may or may not be more : worthy/ current/serious/ new / old / big /small / close to home /far away etc etc etc etc , so protesting about it is wrong / waste of time / hypocritical ....SO BASICALLY DO NOTHING ....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## Lea (Apr 7, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> It's still really a different 'country' though - own currency, own laws, etc.  Almost impossible for mainlanders to move there...



I disagree that HK is a "different" country. The law as at 1997 was only to remain in force for 50 years according to the Agreement signed. Also members of the legislative council and Chief Executive is appointed by the Chinese Government and not locally elected. 



> - but I do know that some FTs who've got (quite good) teaching jobs in HK have had problems within bringing their mainland Chinese wives into HK to live with them, even temporarily...



But I do agree that it is difficult for mainlanders to settle in HK. I have seen on HK news reports of immigration problems for HK men applying for their mainland Chinese wives and children to settle in HK.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2008)

my housemate is from HK and from what she says about it, it is, basically, a different country (with a few exceptions) ... they have completely different laws about everything and the chinese gov't just leave them to it really ...

she also says there's a lot of resentment between mainland chinese and people in HK...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 7, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> she also says there's a lot of resentment between mainland chinese and people in HK...



Did she say why?


----------



## Lea (Apr 7, 2008)

The Chinese government don't just leave them to it because they are essentially governed by the Chinese goverment. As said before the legco (parliament) is appointed by Chinese government. 

As for the resentment I can understand. I find that most HK people feel they that they are superior to their mainland neighbours. The derogatory term used is dai look lo/mui.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2008)

Lea said:


> The Chinese government don't just leave them to it because they are essentially governed by the Chinese goverment. As said before the legco (parliament) is appointed by Chinese government.
> 
> As for the resentment I can understand. I find that most HK people feel they that they are superior to their mainland neighbours. The derogatory term used is dai look lo/mui.



^ this. she says that a lot of people from hong kong think they are more "civilised" than people in mainland china.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 7, 2008)

Lea said:


> But I do agree that it is difficult for mainlanders to settle in HK. I have seen on HK news reports of immigration problems for HK men applying for their mainland Chinese wives and children to settle in HK.



Yep.  There are even sometimes problems when the mainland Chinese spouse has first lived in, say, the UK and acquired a UK passport.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 7, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> ^ this. she says that a lot of people from hong kong think they are more "civilised" than people in mainland china.



I've heard that there have been quite a few disagreements over business practice when mainlanders and HKers have tried to work together.  Having seen how things "work" on the mainland, I'm not all that surprised with that!


----------



## PaulOK (Apr 7, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> indeed.



....And after the Olympics it will fade back into obscurity. It's a 'sexy' story at the moment as it suits loads of disparate people's adgendas - including a racist BNP'er at work today who was happy to see the 'Chinks' getting turned over and "they all look the f*ckin same don't they?". Thinking about it ,Tibet could be something that could unite us all! Left, Right, Tory, Labour, Black, White, Muslim, Zionist....we can all come together in our hatred of those Yellow fuckers - Hmmm....Buddha may work in mysterious ways!

Still, good luck to you all - enjoy your PROTEST while they last  - about as long as a crap Chinese made coat from Primark.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2008)

PaulOK said:


> ....And after the Olympics it will fade back into obscurity. It's a 'sexy' story at the moment as it suits loads of disparate people's adgendas - including a racist BNP'er at work today who was happy to see the 'Chinks' getting turned over and "they all look the f*ckin same don't they?".
> 
> Still, good luck to you all - enjoy your PROTEST while they last  - about as long as a crap Chinese made coat from Primark.



 Sickening 

I agree with that and I think sadly there's a lot of that going on. There's also a lot more anti-Chinese stuff going round than there was, say, a year ago. 

However, the same could be said about Israel. I'm sure lots of BNP members support the Palestinians for exactly that reason. That doesn't mean that the Israelis are right does it??


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 8, 2008)

gentlegreen said:


> Very restrained though - mostly concerned with keeping the torch visible.



They'd better be restrained: it's not their fucking country.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 8, 2008)

Newsnight *did *have some footage of one of the "men in blue" grabbing a protestor, then a policeman restraining *him.

*The Australian PM has announced that they will only be using their own police.

Gawd noze how many minders they'll be using if they persist with the Lhasa section.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 8, 2008)

PaulOK said:


> ....And after the Olympics it will fade back into obscurity. It's a 'sexy' story at the moment as it suits loads of disparate people's adgendas - including a racist BNP'er at work today who was happy to see the 'Chinks' getting turned over and "they all look the f*ckin same don't they?". Thinking about it ,Tibet could be something that could unite us all! Left, Right, Tory, Labour, Black, White, Muslim, Zionist....we can all come together in our hatred of those Yellow fuckers - Hmmm....Buddha may work in mysterious ways!
> 
> Still, good luck to you all - enjoy your PROTEST while they last  - about as long as a crap Chinese made coat from Primark.



why , would you like to see a permanent protest , about everything , forever , or else  no protest at all ?


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 8, 2008)

Lea said:


> As for the resentment I can understand. I find that most HK people feel they that they are superior to their mainland neighbours. The derogatory term used is dai look lo/mui.



the superiority complex is changing.
over the last few years, HK people had to tone down their behaviour to accomodate mainland tourists.
i mean it's getting ridiculous in HK - there are tons and tons of mainlanders.
i remember watching the HK news on this, how old community blocks were getting destroyed so that new 3 star hotels can be built.

how the tables have turned...

as for the HK visas...when i was getting my ID done, most of the applicants in the immigration office were from the mainland (and UK/Australia).


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## Lock&Light (Apr 8, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> you are fast becoming the new L&L ...
> 
> only with even less humour...



Can you explain how, having spent years telling me that I am devoid of all humour, you can now accuse another of having even less? Logic never was your strong point, was it, plonker?


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## winjer (Apr 8, 2008)

treelover said:


> It is revealing that for a relatively small protest, there are so many non violent direct action protests, yet on the Iraq protests of hundreds of thousands, so few, says it all about STWC


Far from being 'non-violent', I think it was actually an object lesson in the benefit of a diversity of tactics.

And at the risk of sounding like an apologist for the STWC, I don't think it's comparable, the target here is obvious (the flame of shame) and there were many opportunities to have a go along a published route, with little risk of being prosecuted.

If you can think of similar targets for anti-militarist direct action, I'm all ears.


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## Yossarian (Apr 8, 2008)

Lea said:


> I disagree that HK is a "different" country. The law as at 1997 was only to remain in force for 50 years according to the Agreement signed. Also members of the legislative council and Chief Executive is appointed by the Chinese Government and not locally elected.



"One country - two systems!" Mainland definitely always feels like a very different country to me though.


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## The Black Hand (Apr 10, 2008)

winjer said:


> WTF? You weren't even there, so why are you making such bizarre pronouncements?


Don't you read the general forum? I said i was going.


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## Nigel (Apr 18, 2008)

*Water Shotages In Central Asia*

With a major economic credit crunch, food prices spiralling upwards especially in third world/developing countries, the price of crude oil at around $100.00 a barrell, the region of Tibet could be of much importance with much of the water that feeds central asia coming from its plateau.

If this proposed puppet state gains 'independence' it could become more than a satelite for American Imperialism, holding to ransom many countries in that region. Subsidised or free water supply could become a thing of the past as western backed private companies gain control of this vital commodity.





http://www.japanfocus.org/products/details/2458


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## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2008)

Nigel said:


> With a major economic credit crunch, food prices spiralling upwards especially in third world/developing countries, the price of crude oil at around $100.00 a barrell, the region of Tibet could be of much importance with much of the water that feeds central asia coming from its plateau.
> 
> If this proposed puppet state gains 'independence' it could become more than a satelite for American Imperialism, holding to ransom many countries in that region. Subsidised or free water supply could become a thing of the past as western backed private companies gain control of this vital commodity.
> 
> ...




It won't gain independence because they'll have China to deal with if they do, it will carry on as before. China is not Serbia, it is one of the top five superpowers in the world, and will soon become as powerful, or more powerful, than America, if it isn't already. America are not about to start a war with China, a NUCLEAR POWER which has already shown that it is willing to do just about anything for its own interests. A war which will probably involve Russia as well on the Chinese side if America attacked, given the arselicking that goes on between those two countries these days. Who have the Americans got? Britain? Would anyone be prepared to go to war any more to defend the USA - let alone WITH CHINA? 

Invading Tibet, which is within China's borders, is not in America's interest. If you think that, given America's dependency on China, they will invade in the name of a "humanitarian intervention" you are insane. Who wants a war with the country that is now, effectively bankrolling them? 

And just because we oppose American imperialism it doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to the Chinese variety. Tibet was a independent state before China invaded it.

It's all imperialism. And it's all wrong. 

There's a reason why America haven't intervened in Burma, either. Burma is too strategically important for the Chinese and if it is attacked China will defend its interests, and we all know what that means.


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## Nigel (Apr 19, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> It won't gain independence because they'll have China to deal with if they do, it will carry on as before. China is not Serbia, it is one of the top five superpowers in the world, and will soon become as powerful, or more powerful, than America, if it isn't already. America are not about to start a war with China, a NUCLEAR POWER which has already shown that it is willing to do just about anything for its own interests. A war which will probably involve Russia as well on the Chinese side if America attacked, given the arselicking that goes on between those two countries these days. Who have the Americans got? Britain? Would anyone be prepared to go to war any more to defend the USA - let alone WITH CHINA?
> 
> Invading Tibet, which is within China's borders, is not in America's interest. If you think that, given America's dependency on China, they will invade in the name of a "humanitarian intervention" you are insane. Who wants a war with the country that is now, effectively bankrolling them?
> 
> ...



The credit crunch, as far as can be expected will have a diminishing affect on 
economic relations between America and China; eventually it will say enough is enough, possibly finding other markets for cheap exports. That and the ecological problems that were outlined above.

I doubt that CIA and their supporters would argue for a complete invasion, they could'nt afford to even if they wanted to; the invasion of Iraq seems to be more like the British in the Boer War running out of funds for their colonial imperialist ventures, rather than America with Vietnam.

CIA has always backed these Right Wing tibetan Nationalists since the end of WWII. They'll just keep on funding them and working behind the scenes.

It would be very hard to say that China has much left of a degenerated workers peasants state, a very horrific form of State Capitlaism backing state controlled private enterprise has formulated within its bowels, however many aspects of the Peoples Republic Of China still exists, much of the regime and projects acting in the interest of the people as a whole, much in industrialised areas in almost in name only: There is a difference between  Imperialism & Chinese Foreign Policy.


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## purves grundy (Apr 19, 2008)

Nigel said:
			
		

> CIA has always backed these Right Wing tibetan Nationalists since the end of WWII. They'll just keep on funding them and working behind the scenes.


To what end? With what results? Some small-scale disturbances a few weeks ago, waged with fists and stones? Is that the result of 50 years of CIA support? What Maoist drivel you spout.


Nigel said:


> however many aspects of the Peoples Republic Of China still exists, much of the regime and projects acting in the interest of the people as a whole


like what?


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2008)

Nigel said:


> The credit crunch, as far as can be expected will have a diminishing affect on
> economic relations between America and China; eventually it will say enough is enough, possibly finding other markets for cheap exports. That and the ecological problems that were outlined above.
> 
> I doubt that CIA and their supporters would argue for a complete invasion, they could'nt afford to even if they wanted to; the invasion of Iraq seems to be more like the British in the Boer War running out of funds for their colonial imperialist ventures, rather than America with Vietnam.
> ...



oh yeah, then how come nothing has ever come of their "support" then? I'm sure they've given them some money, but nothing's ever happened, things just carry on as before, and relations with the chinese state are far more important than a few "splittists" or whatever ...

what has the CIA support for tibet managed to achieve?? Nothing!! 

you have repeatedly shown that you are an apologist for some very nasty regimes ...


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## david dissadent (Apr 19, 2008)

Nigel said:


> The credit crunch, as far as can be expected will have a diminishing affect on
> economic relations between America and China; eventually it will say enough is enough, possibly finding other markets for cheap exports. That and the ecological problems that were outlined above.


Errr I am not sure what you are saying but if you think Chinese\ US trade is going to dissapear over the next three or four years then you are living on a different planet to me.


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## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

Nigel said:


> The credit crunch, as far as can be expected will have a diminishing affect on
> economic relations between America and China; eventually it will say enough is enough, possibly finding other markets for cheap exports. That and the ecological problems that were outlined above.
> 
> I doubt that CIA and their supporters would argue for a complete invasion, they could'nt afford to even if they wanted to; the invasion of Iraq seems to be more like the British in the Boer War running out of funds for their colonial imperialist ventures, rather than America with Vietnam.
> ...



thats such bullshit lol .


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## Nigel (Apr 21, 2008)

david dissadent said:


> Errr I am not sure what you are saying but if you think Chinese\ US trade is going to dissapear over the next three or four years then you are living on a different planet to me.



No, there will be a conflict of interests, leading towards a very teppid version of a 'cold war'


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## The39thStep (Apr 21, 2008)

Beijing 2008: Challenging China-bashing .Series of good articles here http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/issues/C136/


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 22, 2008)

thanks 39th step - that last article is pretty good.

well, at least the torch run went well in malaysia...


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## Nigel (Apr 22, 2008)

I feel a bit dodgy sympathising with an article(s) with Spiked, or (when it was going)the RCP: however thats a good article.


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 22, 2008)

from tiananmen square to parliment...


http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i7TS4v0L5jdcU9ZAJ85Wy45HvlqA


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## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 23, 2008)

There's been a real sinister twist to this... a girl called Grace Wang, a PRC student in the US, had the audacity attend a pro-Tibet rally.  Her family's house in Qingdao has now been covered in Graffiti with shit left on the doorstep.  She's had death threats and been threatened to be raped if she returns to China, and her high school have revoked her high school diploma.  How much more orwellian can you get?


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 23, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> There's been a real sinister twist to this... a girl called Grace Wang, a PRC student in the US, had the audacity attend a pro-Tibet rally.  Her family's house in Qingdao has now been covered in Graffiti with shit left on the doorstep.  She's had death threats and been threatened to be raped if she returns to China, and her high school have revoked her high school diploma.  How much more orwellian can you get?



That's awful.


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 23, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> There's been a real sinister twist to this... a girl called Grace Wang, a PRC student in the US, had the audacity attend a pro-Tibet rally.  Her family's house in Qingdao has now been covered in Graffiti with shit left on the doorstep.  She's had death threats and been threatened to be raped if she returns to China, and her high school have revoked her high school diploma.  How much more orwellian can you get?



can you apply for asylum?


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 23, 2008)

http://www.danwei.org/internet/grace_wang.php
http://sport.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-7475434,00.html



> In videos of the so-called ‘protests’ (see links at bottom of article), Wang makes a public speech in English, facing the Chinese students, and with the non-Chinese students behind her. Her comments include, “Just because I am Chinese does not mean that I can't think for myself."



why did she say it in english?
chinese students tend to stick together in foreign countries and are very insular - so why did she go against them among a pro-tibetan and majority white audience?

whatever the answer, she didn't deserve all that shit...bloody ultra-nationalists are all the same - whatever the country...


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## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 23, 2008)

Agreed, but sadly the ultra-nationalist aspect of China appears to be greatly more common than the UK.  Imagine if a British student overseas attended a demonstration criticising some aspect of UK goverment policy, and then was greeted with treatment like that.  It's almost impossible to imagine anyone other than the BNP's lunatic fringe doing that.


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## Nigel (Apr 24, 2008)

*CIA Lies*



RenegadeDog said:


> Agreed, but sadly the ultra-nationalist aspect of China appears to be greatly more common than the UK.  Imagine if a British student overseas attended a demonstration criticising some aspect of UK goverment policy, and then was greeted with treatment like that.  It's almost impossible to imagine anyone other than the BNP's lunatic fringe doing that.



Are you sure it is not just Pro-Tibetan propaganda?


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## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 25, 2008)

Nigel said:


> Are you sure it is not just Pro-Tibetan propaganda?



Nope - the girl's contact details were posted on sina.com, a mainstream chinese website.


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 25, 2008)

Nigel said:


> Are you sure it is not just Pro-Tibetan propaganda?



that is a very old school chinese viewpoint - something my parents and partner's family would say.

funny enough, i was chatting to me woman's dad last night (he's vietnamese-born-chinese and very educated). 
i asked what he thought of them lamas.
his reply was typical - 'they're bad people who stone chinese workers to death. bloody racists. and the dalai lama is only pissed cos he lost his master/slave empire.'
then he goes on about how the lama is sponsored by the americans.
and he turns on the TV and tunes into a falun gong TV channel (sponsored by the west) that slags off the chinese government 24/7.

i don't disagree with him that much.
but what does my head in is when people who have no idea of tibet and china, start chanting 'free tibet'

- if only things were that simple.


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## Nigel (Apr 25, 2008)

I am very critical of the Chinese Government, espcially around workers' rights and free trade unions. Especially now that organised workers are now gaining victories for pay and conditions.

Genuine open democracy and an adoption of civil rights & international Human Rights Law; Based on the culture & legal system of the Chinese Peoples.

But not in the in the interests of Western Capitalism, or the cultural chauvanism and racism of predominantely white protestant outlook.

I would want the same thing that happened in USSR with scumbags like Gorbachev & Yeltsin betraying their peoples and doing backhand deals with American Imperialism and asset stripping anything in site.


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## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 26, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> that is a very old school chinese viewpoint - something my parents and partner's family would say.
> 
> funny enough, i was chatting to me woman's dad last night (he's vietnamese-born-chinese and very educated).
> i asked what he thought of them lamas.
> ...



I think there are two main things that need to be underlined.

1. On the one hand, China simply isn't going to give Tibet up.  It's a huge border area and they would be losing a huge chunk of their territory.  Yes, it is unrealistic to expect Tibet to get independence.

2. On the other, it's nevertheless not unreasonable to be able to point out the human rights abuses that have and do take place there.

Chinese people always claim that Tibet has 'always' been part of China.  Yet if you look at the histories they post, in that history, Tibet was never a 'part' of China per se, more a loosely affiliated protectorate.  It always had its own government, its own everything, and there were never more than about 100 Chinese people in Tibet at any one point.  More like the kind of relationship that the UK has with, oh, I don't know, the Channel Islands or somewhere, than anything else.  So if we followed history, Tibet would have the yuan as its currency and be loosely connected to China, but the Dalai Lama would be allowed back in, there would be full freedom of religion, and there wouldn't be 1 soldier for every 20 Tibetans (surely the largest-scale military occupation anywhere in the world?).


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 26, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> I think there are two main things that need to be underlined.
> 
> 1. On the one hand, China simply isn't going to give Tibet up.  It's a huge border area and they would be losing a huge chunk of their territory.  Yes, it is unrealistic to expect Tibet to get independence.
> 
> ...



china has always recognised tibet as one of the 'lost territories.' 
but communist china have a different view to tibet...
where previously, they had an 'understanding,' two cultures one ruler in the mongol dynasty.

RG - out of china's many crimes, why do you think there's so much focus on tibet? do you think it's the oil?


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## upsidedownwalrus (Apr 27, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> china has always recognised tibet as one of the 'lost territories.'
> but communist china have a different view to tibet...
> where previously, they had an 'understanding,' two cultures one ruler in the mongol dynasty.
> 
> RG - out of china's many crimes, why do you think there's so much focus on tibet? do you think it's the oil?



I think it's because Tibetan culture, rightly or wrongly, appears so 'cultured' and 'mysterious'.  Also the Han Chinese appear to rally round their government and say how great they are.  Another thing, is that the Han Chinese are now being left to live their lives more or less intact, whereas Tibetan nomads are still being forced off their traditional land etc.


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## frogwoman (Apr 28, 2008)

This is rather funny.  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7370903.stm


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## The39thStep (Apr 28, 2008)

It was over a week ago but posters may have missed nearly 2000 Chinese students demonstrating outside the BBC in Manchester against the anti Chinese coverage by the BBC.There was no 'free Tibet' counter demo.


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## CharlieAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

The39thStep said:


> It was over a week ago but posters may have missed nearly 2000 Chinese students demonstrating outside the BBC in Manchester against the anti Chinese coverage by the BBC.There was no 'free Tibet' counter demo.



yeah, i posted that somewhere.
it's pretty big news in some papers - and they have a deserved claim too!


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## upsidedownwalrus (May 13, 2008)

Hmm... I am starting to seriously reevaluate my view on this... Nigel may be right...


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## CharlieAddict (May 13, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> Hmm... I am starting to seriously reevaluate my view on this... Nigel may be right...



i agree with him on this - 

[QUOTE-Nigel]But not in the in the interests of Western Capitalism, or the cultural chauvanism and racism of predominantely white protestant outlook.[/QUOTE]


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## winjer (May 13, 2008)

The39thStep said:


> It was over a week ago but posters may have missed nearly 2000 Chinese students demonstrating outside the BBC in Manchester against the anti Chinese coverage by the BBC.There was no 'free Tibet' counter demo.


More Chinese students than Tibetans in the UK shocker!1!


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## CharlieAddict (May 13, 2008)

winjer said:


> More Chinese students than Tibetans in the UK shocker!1!



that's cos over 6 million live in china.
(and just over 2 million in tibet).

what's your point?
there were more soldiers than chinese students in 89.

eta - 2 million in tibet.


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## upsidedownwalrus (May 13, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> i agree with him on this -
> 
> [QUOTE-Nigel]But not in the in the interests of Western Capitalism, or the cultural chauvanism and racism of predominantely white protestant outlook.


[/QUOTE]

Not so much that.  I don't reckon it's racism, just misinformation.

It's since I've read about the extent to which the Tibetans themselves supported the overthrowing of the old regime that I've started to change my mind.  It's not an ethnic conflict at all, but an ideological one - theocracy vs 'communism' (as was).


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## CharlieAddict (May 13, 2008)

have you got that article online? be interested in having a read of that.

there is a certain extent of racism but it depends what source we're talking about...(ie, CNN).


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## Fruitloop (May 13, 2008)

The thing with the kind of chauvanism that says that people should have freedom of association, expression and protection from state brutality regardless of where they live is that there is altogether too little of it, in both the East and the West.


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## Nigel (May 13, 2008)

*Death To Tibetan Supremicists*



Fruitloop said:


> The thing with the kind of chauvanism that says that people should have freedom of association, expression and protection from state brutality regardless of where they live is that there is altogether too little of it, in both the East and the West.



The majority of Tibetan Nationalists are racial supremicists, with fascistic sympathies sponsored by the CIA.


AND SHOULD BE CRUSHED WITH AN IRON FIST
AND SHOULD BE CRUSHED WITH AN IRON FIST
AND SHOULD BE CRUSHED WITH AN IRON FIST
AND SHOULD BE CRUSHED WITH AN IRON FIST
AND SHOULD BE CRUSHED WITH AN IRON FIST


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## purves grundy (May 13, 2008)

Nigel said:


> The majority of Tibetan Nationalists are racial supremicists, with fascistic sympathies sponsored by the CIA.
> 
> 
> AND SHOULD BE CRUSHED WITH AN IRON FIST
> ...




Are you a real person, or just a laughable Maoist conspirabot?


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## Nigel (May 13, 2008)

purves grundy said:


> Are you a real person, or just a laughable Maoist conspirabot?



Running Dog Imperialist Swine.


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## CharlieAddict (May 13, 2008)

Nigel said:


> Running Dog Imperialist Swine.



i don't know why. 
but when i read your threads, you always have a russian accent.
like those bad guys fom the american made cold war movies.


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