# Five-year-old April Jones kidnapped in Machynlleth, Mid-Wales



## stuff_it (Oct 2, 2012)

FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/events/119518738197604/

Various news links:
http://www.itv.com/news/story/2012-10-01/april-jones-missing-five-year-old-girl-in-wales/

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/april-jones-girl-missing-in-machynlleth-1355140


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## treelover (Oct 2, 2012)

Awful news, I go regularly to the town for a Latin American festival, its a lovely and special place, though there are tensions between 'locals' and 'newcomers'


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## shagnasty (Oct 2, 2012)

Lets hope the person in the van is an estranged husband or something.But it does not look good


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## Ponyutd (Oct 2, 2012)

What the fuck is a five year old doing on her own ? The mother called the police when she didn't come home?


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## Dandred (Oct 2, 2012)

I used to live near Macynlleth, hope she turn up unharmed.


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## Badgers (Oct 2, 2012)

shagnasty said:
			
		

> Lets hope the person in the van is an estranged husband or something.But it does not look good



I can't see it being an estranged husband. Not much info but you would thought that the police/press would be aware of that. Hope this turns out ok


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## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2012)

It's interesting how swiftly facebook groups are set up for things like this


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## Badgers (Oct 2, 2012)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> It's interesting how swiftly facebook groups are set up for things like this



She has been missing for 12 hours and Facebook is surely one of the best places to quickly spread photos/information.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2012)

Badgers said:


> She has been missing for 12 hours and Facebook is surely one of the best places to quickly spread photos/information.


or, imo more likely, to get a vicarious thrill


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## stuff_it (Oct 2, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> or, imo more likely, to get a vicarious thrill


You're right, this sort of thing should be kept quiet to avoid 'thrill-seekers'.

One of the FB groups looks to be set up by her mum, why don't you go tell her that. I expect the poor woman just wanted to feel she was doing something.


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## Badgers (Oct 2, 2012)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> or, imo more likely, to get a vicarious thrill



I dunno. Someone has to stay at home waiting. If I was stuck at home with a missing family member I would do the same. Or ask a more Facebook savvy friend to do it.


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## dylans (Oct 2, 2012)

Ponyutd said:


> What the fuck is a five year old doing on her own ? The mother called the police when she didn't come home?


I don't think she was on her own. Wasn't her abduction witnessed by some other kids? The article says



> She had been playing on her bike* with friends* near her home on the Brynygog estate in the market town in mid Wales.


 
 Anyway it says she was near her home. Perhaps its the kind of place where people have always felt safe letting their kids play in the street. Rather than have a go at her mom, we should be asking ourselves why kids being able to play out is considered so unusual.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> You're right, this sort of thing should be kept quiet to avoid 'thrill-seekers'.
> 
> One of the FB groups looks to be set up by her mum, why don't you go tell her that. I expect the poor woman just wanted to feel she was doing something.


Did it make you feel better, putting words in my mouth?


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## Clair De Lune (Oct 2, 2012)

dylans said:


> I don't think she was on her own. Wasn't her abduction witnessed by some other kids? The article says
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway it says she was near her home. Perhaps its the kind of place where people have always felt safe letting their kids play in the street. Rather than have a go at her mom, we should be asking ourselves why kids being able to play out is considered so unusual.


Exactly what I thought. Kids won't be allowed to play out on their own there anymore.


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## PursuedByBears (Oct 2, 2012)

Mrs Bears' initial reaction was "what was she doing out on her own?", it's a shame that this isn't seen as normal any more.


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## jusali (Oct 2, 2012)

We often let our kids play out on the street. They're 5 and 7.
I'd hate this to happen to my kids but this kind of abduction is still very rare.
Let's hope she is OK but I have my doubts God bless her.......


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## Buddy Bradley (Oct 2, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19800140

Based on the quality of this article they should be looking for the 5-year-old in the BBC's copy-editing department.


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## Badgers (Oct 2, 2012)

This story is getting a LOT less media (and Urban) attention than Meg and Jezza did


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## QueenOfGoths (Oct 2, 2012)

Badgers said:


> This story is getting a LOT less media (and Urban) attention than Meg and Jezza did


Maybe because it is an ongoing police operation - I mean I know the Megan/Jeremy thing was as well but this is a bit more immediate iyswim so maybe the media feel they need to be a bit more circumspect?


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## dylans (Oct 2, 2012)

Some remarks on the town which appears to be a very close community and a very safe environment. 



> It is populated both by those whose families have lived here for generations and by many incomers attracted by the town's tradition as a liberal and environmentally-friendly place to live.
> Also need to emphasise how vast the landscapes are around the town – to the north the wilds of Snowdonia, to the south the huge emptiness of mid Wales.
> Just a few market towns and villages between here and the M4 corridor, two and a half hours away. Cut an hour and half inland east, though, and you hit the motorway network.
> The estate where the Jones family live is compact. No main road runs through it. It does not look like the sort of place from which an abductor would be able to grab a child unnoticed.


 


> I moved here from Manchester to give my children the same childhood I had in the seventies- the freedom to be able to play out, climb trees, play by the river etc.
> This is a wonderfully safe place with hardly any crime and my three boys often play out away from the home without me worrying about them.
> Please don't judge these parents; if you knew Mach and Aberystwyth you would know its a wonderful, safe community based place where everyone knows each other and people look out for each other... I hope and pray they return little April to her parents where she belongs.


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## JeffWode (Oct 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> Awful news, I go regularly to the town for a Latin American festival, its a lovely and special place, though there are tensions between 'locals' and 'newcomers'


 
Yeah, yeah, same old story. What tensions?? I suppose the locals all talk in that 'coded' language of ours and about you, I suspect. Listen, the locals have put up with years of 'incomers' (your word), coming in and seeking an 'alternative lifestyle' and the 'good-life' and, thus, transforming a town that was once simply a rural and peaceful Welsh indigenous community, where the language thrived, into a mini Glastonbury. And I'd say that these 'incomers' have managed quite well, despite the 'tensions' you're on about. And just because the locals haven't embraced this 'alternative' lifestyle, I suppose you think that they're the ones marching out of step, in Mach. Just like when the pioneers first went to America, they too thought that the Natives were hostile, when in all reality, they weren't accustomed to these new and strange ways of foreigners. What efforts have the 'incomers' made to embrace the language and culture in the heartland of Wales, I wonder. Empathise a bit, won't you?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 2, 2012)

Incomers?


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## Badgers (Oct 2, 2012)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Incomers?


 
Emigrants


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## weltweit (Oct 2, 2012)

Nasty story, I hope they find the little girl quickly.

It does sound as if she knew the person in the van if she got in under her own steam.


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## Quartz (Oct 2, 2012)

Fingers crossed for a speedy and safe return.


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## killer b (Oct 2, 2012)

weltweit said:


> It does sound as if she knew the person in the van if she got in under her own steam.


leave it out you fucking vulture.


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## bignose1 (Oct 2, 2012)

shagnasty said:


> Lets hope the person in the van is an estranged husband or something.But it does not look good


 Their usually worse!


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 2, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Nasty story, I hope they find the little girl quickly.
> 
> It does sound as if she knew the person in the van if she got in under her own steam.


 
Nasty indeed, I once lost sight of my 5 year old walking her to her classroom. We were already on the school grounds and it was only for about 30 seconds, but I almost died inside. I cannot imagine what the parents are going though.


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## Clair De Lune (Oct 2, 2012)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Nasty indeed, I once lost sight of my 5 year old walking her to her classroom. We were already on the school grounds and it was only for about 30 seconds, but I almost died inside. I cannot imagine what the parents are going though.


Yep, my daughter once toddled off through the usually locked back gate when I was on the phone. Longest ten mins of my life searching for her and screaming her name. Police car picked her up at the other end of the street. Never have I felt such a sense of panic  Her poor, poor parents.


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## scifisam (Oct 2, 2012)

I spent a lot of time in mach a decade ago and it absolutely is the sort of place where kids as young as five play out. Though probably not now. :-(


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## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 2, 2012)

That is not a good news conference. They've arrested someone. 

I don't have any kids of my own, but have a rake of nieces and nephews. I lost a niece (for about two minutes) while out walking the dog. She was hiding in a bush. But my heart stopped. I can't really imagine what this girls parents are going through.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 2, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Their usually worse!


 
Their what is usually usually worse?
In an unrelated matter, I the whole bottle.


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## Badgers (Oct 2, 2012)

> Detective Superintendent Reg Bevan of Dyfed Powys Police said a 46-year-old man was arrested in the Machynlleth area within the last hour and is being questioned at Aberystwyth police station. They hope he will help police locate her, but can give no more details.


 
Guardian ^


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## weepiper (Oct 2, 2012)




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## Quartz (Oct 2, 2012)

BBC said:
			
		

> He said that the man arrested was being sought by police and was stopped while he was walking along a road outside the town. His vehicle has now been recovered.




Doesn't sound good. Either they've got the wrong guy or he's already 'enjoyed' her and she's dead.


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## miss direct (Oct 2, 2012)

They're searching land now :-(
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2012/oct/02/april-jones-missing-five-live


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 2, 2012)

Shit this is not looking good.
How utterly horrible.


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## stuff_it (Oct 2, 2012)

No, not looking good at all.


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## Clair De Lune (Oct 2, 2012)

Fuck


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## editor (Oct 2, 2012)

This is horrible. I can't imagine what it must be like for the parents.  Let's hope they find the girl alive.


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## Firky (Oct 2, 2012)

I can't follow news like this, I habe nephews and nieces the same age and it is too much.


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## Clair De Lune (Oct 2, 2012)

My son overheard me telling my daughter a five year old was missing and said "Is it me?!" No, thank goodness it's not I thought.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2012)

The response from the community has been wonderful:



> Dyfed-Powys Police have praised the "tremendous response" from the community since five-year-old April Jones was abducted while playing outside her home.
> 
> Hundreds of people joined in the search for April overnight around Machynlleth, and the leisure centre was jam packed with helpers on Tuesday.
> 
> ...


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## weepiper (Oct 2, 2012)

She's only a few months older than my youngest too. Is it just me or has there been a neverending run of horrible stories involving small kids lately (abductions, estranged fathers killing themselves and the kids etc). I want to switch off the world sometimes.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2012)

weepiper said:


> She's only a few months older than my youngest too. Is it just me or has there been a neverending run of horrible stories involving small kids lately (abductions, estranged fathers killing themselves and the kids etc). I want to switch off the world sometimes.


 
yes, it is really hard - I was crying reading that story and watching some horrendous footage of young children starving in the Yemen the other day.  And these families self destructing and killing the kids.  I have to switch over/not watch as it can be deeply saddening.  At the same time that seems horribly self-centred.  I just want to gather my kids to me and be thankful.


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## 1927 (Oct 2, 2012)

Some re[ports of a woman in tears being taken to spot where car was found! doesnt sound good!


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## Quartz (Oct 2, 2012)

My niece is the same age. This strikes very close to home.


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## Gavin Bl (Oct 2, 2012)

man arrested is apparently known to the family, has been named too. Possible link to an attempted abduction in Aberystwyth recently.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2012)

The guy has been named as Mark Bridger.

*cue a hundred Facebook searches


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 2, 2012)

Press Conference at 9:30pm. Dont think it is going to be positive sadly.


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## Firky (Oct 2, 2012)

editor said:


> The guy has been named as Mark Bridger.
> 
> *cue a hundred Facebook searches


 
*edited 'cos am being a speculative nob.*


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## editor (Oct 2, 2012)

I'm not for the death penalty at all, but there are those sudden moments when, well, you know....


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## aqua (Oct 2, 2012)

I can't watch stuff like this since I've had pickle, the mere thought of it makes me start to panic, genuine panic, just at the thought  my heart goes out to her parents, I just don't want to even think about it too hard  I know that makes me quite shit


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## Gavin Bl (Oct 2, 2012)

aqua said:


> I can't watch stuff like this since I've had pickle, the mere thought of it makes me start to panic, genuine panic, just at the thought  my heart goes out to her parents, I just don't want to even think about it too hard  I know that makes me quite shit


no, I feel exactly the same way aqua.


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## 1927 (Oct 2, 2012)

Some tweets now saying body found!


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## Tankus (Oct 2, 2012)

W


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## aqua (Oct 2, 2012)

1927 said:


> Some tweets now saying body found!


God I hope not


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## Tankus (Oct 2, 2012)

Wrong to allow the release of his name


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## shagnasty (Oct 2, 2012)

Sky news will be showing the press conference.my grand daughter is the same age


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## bi0boy (Oct 2, 2012)

Tankus said:


> Wrong to allow the release of his name


 
Why? Of course police should name suspects if it helps with the investigation.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 2, 2012)

Oh god this is so depressing.


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## bi0boy (Oct 2, 2012)

1927 said:


> Some tweets now saying body found!


 
It's twitter! It's bollocks!


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## elbows (Oct 2, 2012)

Useless press conference. And the police did not officially release his name.


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## sleaterkinney (Oct 2, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> Why? Of course police should name suspects if it helps with the investigation.


Innocent until proven guilty?


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## elbows (Oct 2, 2012)

sleaterkinney said:


> Innocent until proven guilty?


 
Not the same as anonymous until proven guilty.


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## 1927 (Oct 2, 2012)

sleaterkinney said:


> Innocent until proven guilty?


 
i somehow doubt that he will ever stand trial!


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## Gromit (Oct 2, 2012)

JeffWode said:


> Yeah, yeah, same old story. What tensions?? I suppose the locals all talk in that 'coded' language of ours and about you, I suspect. Listen, the locals have put up with years of 'incomers' (your word), coming in and seeking an 'alternative lifestyle' and the 'good-life' and, thus, transforming a town that was once simply a rural </snip>



The locals don't care too much for those coming because of the local alternative energy research centre. Labeling them wacky hippy types. 

But if you aren't a wacko crusty they are friendly enough. 

I used to know quite a lot of people there.


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## sleaterkinney (Oct 2, 2012)

elbows said:


> Not the same as anonymous until proven guilty.


Look at what happened when that girl went missing in Bristol... the papers will be all over this.


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## killer b (Oct 2, 2012)

not sure if this is the best thread for a discussion on the merits of open justice, but i'll take the opportunity to call you a moron sleaterkinney.


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## sleaterkinney (Oct 2, 2012)

killer b said:


> not sure if this is the best thread for a discussion on the merits of open justice, but i'll take the opportunity to call you a moron sleaterkinney.


Likewise, if you think naming suspects* is a good idea.

*Or whatever the legal term is for people who haven't been charged.


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## killer b (Oct 2, 2012)

i think it's essential, not just a good idea, regardless of the behaviour of the gutter press. but as i said, not the thread for it.


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## Firky (Oct 2, 2012)

killer b said:


> not sure if this is the best thread for a discussion on the merits of open justice.


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## sleaterkinney (Oct 2, 2012)

I don't, I think people have the right to anonymity unless they have been charged and I'll leave it at that.


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## weltweit (Oct 2, 2012)

This has made me wonder about the low key implementation of Sarah's law. Not the right thread perhaps.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2012)

weltweit said:


> This has made me wonder about the low key implementation of Sarah's law. Not the right thread perhaps.


It may well prove to be completely irrelevant too.


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## Tankus (Oct 3, 2012)

May also cause a miss trial, even if guilty


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## JeffWode (Oct 3, 2012)

Gromit said:


> The locals don't care too much for those coming because of the local alternative energy research centre. Labeling them wacky hippy types.
> 
> But if you aren't a wacko crusty they are friendly enough.
> 
> I used to know quite a lot of people there.


 
The Center of Alternative Technology - exactly.  I know a couple of people who worked for them.  Didn't stay long.  They're not the laid-back hippies you might think they are - more corporate clique and done nothing much for the actual community itself.


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## bignose1 (Oct 3, 2012)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Their what is usually usually worse?
> In an unrelated matter, I the whole bottle.


 Estranged husbands...fucked up selfish cunts who take the whole family with them...
dont get the second part re bottle.


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## gabi (Oct 3, 2012)

I sense hefty lawsuits ahead if this guy whose name the keystone cops have leaked to the press is found not to be involved.

If he is involved I expect epic van-banging on a scale not seen since Soham.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 3, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Estranged husbands...fucked up selfish cunts who take the whole family with them...
> dont get the second part re bottle.


 
Sorry, I was making a joke about your misspelling (or rather using the wrong) they're.

Probably not the time or place.


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## Santino (Oct 3, 2012)

I saw five minutes of the news coverage this morning and it had already turned into horrible, mawkish grief porn.


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## gabi (Oct 3, 2012)

Santino said:


> I saw five minutes of the news coverage this morning and it had already turned into horrible, mawkish grief porn.


 
I just saw that 'volunteer' being interviewed on the beeb. have to say i was cringing.


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## killer b (Oct 3, 2012)

gabi said:


> I sense hefty lawsuits ahead if this guy whose name the keystone cops have leaked to the press is found not to be involved.


on what grounds?


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## gabi (Oct 3, 2012)

I think the precedent might be the Bristol murder a year or so ago where that dude with the weird eyebrows got his name leaked and subsequently sued.

altho in this case they seem fairly sure it's the right guy.


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## Clair De Lune (Oct 3, 2012)

Press are all over the place, anyone could have given them the mans name.


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## silverfish (Oct 3, 2012)

gabi said:


> I just saw that 'volunteer' being interviewed on the beeb. have to say i was cringing.


 
its always the interviewed "volunteer" or step uncle that does it


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## gabi (Oct 3, 2012)

one guy had driven from manchester and looked well fucked off that the cops had told them to back off


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## Dan U (Oct 3, 2012)

gabi said:


> I sense hefty lawsuits ahead if this guy whose name the keystone cops have leaked to the press is found not to be involved.
> 
> If he is involved I expect epic van-banging on a scale not seen since Soham.


 
it doesn't necc follow that the police leaked it (although obviously it is likely)

it is a small town, people may have seen him get nicked, seen the police around his seized car, seen his house being turned over and gossip spread.

i am more surprised at the media naming him just now tbh, as you imply they have been burnt before.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2012)

gabi said:


> one guy had driven from manchester and looked well fucked off that the cops had told them to back off


yeh, now what's he going to tell the dole?


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 3, 2012)

Just so distressing. I doubt she will be found alive now. Just horrendous


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2012)

silverfish said:


> its always the interviewed "volunteer" or step uncle that does it


or the school caretaker


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> Just so distressing. I doubt she will be found alive now. Just horrendous


them's the breaks with this sort of story.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2012)

gabi said:


> I think the precedent might be the Bristol murder a year or so ago where that dude with the weird eyebrows got his name leaked and subsequently sued.
> 
> altho in this case they seem fairly sure it's the right guy.


they seemed pretty bloody sure with colin stagg.


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## friedaweed (Oct 3, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19813140
They've named the suspect


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## Ranbay (Oct 3, 2012)

friedaweed said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19813140
> They've named the suspect


 
There's already many a facebook group where you can say how much you want to kill him and stuff....


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## Teaboy (Oct 3, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> There's already many a facebook group where you can say how much you want to kill him and stuff....


 
Sky news was speculating last night that he had a daughter of the same age who may have been playing with the little girl when she went missing.  24 hour rolling news has a lot to answer for.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> There's already many a facebook group where you can say how much you want to kill him and stuff....


link or stfu


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## Ranbay (Oct 3, 2012)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mark-Bridger-Deserves-to-die-for-poor-little-april/478766098824675

well here is one anyway


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## editor (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh dear:


> *it wasnt him, it was the parents. how many news storys of missing kids and its always turned out to be the parents? shannon matthews, maddie mcann etc.*


It's too depressing to read any more of that page.


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## friedaweed (Oct 3, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> There's already many a facebook group where you can say how much you want to kill him and stuff....


I don't do facebook for just that reason and others


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## Nylock (Oct 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Oh dear:
> It's too depressing to read any more of that page.


A lot of the commentators on these FB groups make the worst of urban's more ill-informed trolls look like they have the debating skills of socrates by comparison...


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## mod (Oct 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Oh dear:
> It's too depressing to read any more of that page.


 
Thats got to be a (sick) WUM surely


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## pinkmonkey (Oct 3, 2012)

friedaweed said:


> I don't do facebook for just that reason and others


The likewhoring is the thing that really pisses me off about Facebook, when people set pages up supposedly to support/or in memory of missing or murdered kids, specifically to get likes and publicise their YouTube and flog advertising.  It's really sick  all that 'one like one prayer' bollocks.  And Facebook take weeks to delete them if they bother at all.  There was a Facebook page supposed to be started by that missing (later found murdered) Croydon teens mum, a month or two ago - it actually belonged to a likewhore based in the USA.


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## pinkmonkey (Oct 3, 2012)

dp


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## gabi (Oct 3, 2012)

More bonkers grief fans on the beeb just now.. 

'i travelled more than 50 miles to be here, on my day off too, and now they don't want us. it's very frustrating'


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## Gingerman (Oct 3, 2012)

gabi said:


> More bonkers grief fans on the beeb just now..
> 
> 'i travelled more than 50 miles to be here, on my day off too, and now they don't want us. it's very frustrating'


That deserves a big fucking


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## Flanflinger (Oct 3, 2012)

Estranged son of guy in custody interviewed on Sky ffs.


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## pinkmonkey (Oct 3, 2012)

Flanflinger said:


> Estranged son of guy in custody interviewed on Sky ffs.


I had to switch the telly off when I saw that.  Before I smashed in my computer monitor.  What a bunch of cunts. The questions they asked him too.  I mean, WTF?  Infact Sky News coverage of the whole thing is revolting.  They remind me of motorists who slow down past accidents to have a good gawp.


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## DexterTCN (Oct 3, 2012)

The mother's appeal was heart-breaking


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## weltweit (Oct 3, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> The mother's appeal was heart-breaking


I agree, I think I would not have asked her to go through that.


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## framed (Oct 3, 2012)

I really could not see the point of that press conference at all.

The suspect was picked up, on foot, wearing outdoor gear, coming from a heavily wooded area near to the river. The police have cordoned off a specific area for an extensive search and are now discouraging local volunteers, which suggests that they are going on information received and that the kid is either in the ground or in the river.

I hope not, but the body language and actual words of the copper in charge suggests that it's a search for a body now.


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## editor (Oct 3, 2012)

If he did do it, why doesn't the fucking cunt say where she is? Or is he hoping that they won't ever find her?



> Speaking at a news conference, Detective Superintendent Reg Bevan said officers had received more than 400 message from the public since their earlier appeal today.
> Then, police took the highly unusual step of naming and releasing pictures of suspect Mark Bridger. He was arrested on the A487, near the Dyfi Bridge, two miles north of the small town, at 3.30pm on Tuesday.
> He said the 46-year-old had been interviewed twice and detectives are looking into his past to build up a profile.
> "Clearly, our focus in those interviews, as it is in this whole inquiry, is to find April. That is primarily what we've been discussing with him," Det Supt Bevan added.
> ...


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## equationgirl (Oct 3, 2012)

editor said:


> If he did do it, why doesn't the fucking cunt say where she is? Or is he hoping that they won't ever find her?


If they don't find a body (god forbid) it would be harder to tie him to murder. Not impossible, mind.


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## William of Walworth (Oct 3, 2012)

gabi said:


> More bonkers grief fans on the beeb just now..
> 
> 'i travelled more than 50 miles to be here, on my day off too, and now they don't want us. it's very frustrating'


 
I'm glad I missed that. That person sounds like a total idiot. Has that person, or others like him/her, had a _proper think_ about why the Police don't want people like them getting in the way any more? (Clearly not!  ) Framed's post rings all too true to me I fear ...

Horrible story all round, but I share peoples's distaste for the 24 hour rolling news about it. People at my workplace can't stop talking about it atm, keep checking their gadgets, etc., which is understandable I guess given how many of them have families of their own, but also pointless and achieving nothing.


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## shagnasty (Oct 3, 2012)

It doesn't look that good .If a five year old child was wandering about someone would have taken her into care.And yes sky coverage is callous but sadly that is what people demand


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2012)

shagnasty said:


> It doesn't look that good .If a five year old child was wandering about someone would have taken her into care.And yes sky coverage is callous but sadly that is what people demand


"someone" would have taken her into care? surely that's the duty of the local authority, not some random passerby?


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 3, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> "someone" would have taken her into care? surely that's the duty of the local authority, not some random passerby?


 
I *think* they are just saying, if she hadn't been abducted, as people are holding out for, and was just wandering around somewhere, someone would have probably spotted her by now and taken her to a cop shop or something, i.e. not left her to wander aimlessly. I think.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> I *think* they are just saying, if she hadn't been abducted, as people are holding out for, and was just wandering around somewhere, someone would have probably spotted her by now and taken her to a cop shop or something, i.e. not left her to wander aimlessly. I think.


what's happened isn't apparently a million miles from that, though it appears things got somewhat confused and the person who spotted her's been taken the police station. i'm sure it will all be sorted out shortly.


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## miss direct (Oct 3, 2012)

What do you mean? That the guy in custody was out searching for her and spotted her?


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 3, 2012)

miss direct said:


> What do you mean? That the guy in custody was out searching for her and spotted her?


 
I think he's attempting 'humour'.


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## miss direct (Oct 3, 2012)

Hilarious.


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## twentythreedom (Oct 3, 2012)

This is grim. Surely there can be very little hope of her being found alive now, if any at all tbh


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2012)

she's brown bread by now. that's for sure, these things never end well.


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## temper_tantrum (Oct 3, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> This is grim. Surely there can be very little hope of her being found alive now, if any at all tbh



Well it is certainly true that the vast and hyperbolic media coverage has made it pretty much impossible for any possible kidnapper to have an incentive to release her unharmed. 
Well done, national media, applause.


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## Quartz (Oct 3, 2012)

The optimist in me says that plod have pretended to fuck up and gone for the obvious suspect in the hope that the real perpetrator will keep her alive long enough to rescue her.

Some optimist I am...


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## William of Walworth (Oct 3, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Well it is certainly true that the vast and hyperbolic media coverage has made it pretty much impossible for any possible kidnapper to have an incentive to release her unharmed.


 
That thought had crossed my mind too 

But in case it may very well be too late ...


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## Iguana (Oct 3, 2012)

Latest rumour on the interwebs is that Mark Bridger had been having an affair of some sort with Coral Jones (and may or may not be April's father) and he's taken April to get her back for breaking up with him. This is why Paul Jones wasn't at the family press conference.

I get that people are probably clinging to this as it would mean April's more likely to be alive but ffs. Coral Jones looked terrified, heartbroken and desperate for her child at that press conference, not like someone who's so concerned with herself that she's keeping a big secret that might help the police find her child.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 3, 2012)

I'm not entirely sure you can second guess how someone who is probably already rather unstable will react in any given situation.


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## temper_tantrum (Oct 3, 2012)

Amateur detectives are the worst in this situation. Vile rubbernecking glee.
It would be far better if the national media did not cover it, in my opinion.


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## Maurice Picarda (Oct 3, 2012)

Blanket coverage isn't just driven by cynical hacks on national dailies. Often, it's the police who decide which nicked tot is worth twanging the nation's heartstrings with, and it's because they are desperate for leads.

It worked with Stammers, notably.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 3, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Amateur detectives are the worst in this situation. Vile rubbernecking glee.
> It would be far better if the national media did not cover it, in my opinion.


 
There's plenty of evidence (she says, not providing any) that sensational coverage following mass killings can encourage others to commit similar acts. I'm not sure they've made the same link here, and I doubt they will, because I'd expect mindsets and motivations are strikingly different. But that being said, it is hard to see how there can be anything positive come out of such a grotesque media circus.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 3, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Blanket coverage isn't just driven by cynical hacks on national dailies. Often, it's the police who decide which nicked tot is worth twanging the nation's heartstrings with, and it's because they are desperate for leads.
> 
> It worked with Stammers, notably.


 
That's interesting.

So counter to what I said in my last post, then, there might be evidence that the right type of coverage is useful. I suppose that makes sense. That being said, is there a line to be drawn between the details and coverage the police want to encourage, and the sensationalism the likes of Sky are peddling, and might the latter end up being counter-productive, not just in individual cases, but also more generally? (i.e. it's not exactly healthy to have a society encouraging blind accusation and frothing rage that can end up harming innocent people.)


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## William of Walworth (Oct 3, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Blanket coverage isn't just driven by cynical hacks on national dailies. Often, it's the police who decide which nicked tot is worth twanging the nation's heartstrings with, and it's because they are desperate for leads.
> 
> It worked with Stammers, notably.


 
Interesting, I was thinking anyway about the Police's involvement in it all, but what you say seems to make sense.


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## temper_tantrum (Oct 3, 2012)

The obvious example is putting the parents/relatives in front of a press conference and seeing how they behave. Pretty much standard practice now, and very useful to the police. Unfortunately it also massively feeds the media appetite for crass, sensational material. It's disgusting. Kay bloody Burley and her moronic questions.


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## Iguana (Oct 3, 2012)

It appears that in this case the police released the photo of Bridger and his landrover in order to get as much information as they could about his whereabouts between Monday night and Tuesday afternoon, as they had very little to go on and had nowhere but the river to focus their search. The information they have since gotten has given them 20 locations to search. Whether this will prove useful or not remains to be seen but they obviously did it for a reason and wanted it to be reported to anyone who might have seen him/his car.

On the other hand the likes of interviews with grief tourists (wannabee volunteers), sweetshop owners and most especially Bridger's mostly estranged son are pointless and fucked up.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> There's plenty of evidence (she says, not providing any) that sensational coverage following mass killings can encourage others to commit similar acts.


i don't recall any mass killings following hard on the heels of the manson family's little extravaganza at 10050 cielo drive, round at hinman's gaff and at the labiancas.


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## twentythreedom (Oct 3, 2012)

@iguana, where the fuck does all that mad rumour / speculation shit come from??

(fwiw I generally avoid twitter, fb, sky)


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 3, 2012)

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/23/media-coverage-of-mass-murders/


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## Iguana (Oct 3, 2012)

I read it first on a parenting forum (along with a lot of "I'm not blaming anyone but 5 year olds should be in bed at 7pm, not out on the street" type comments) but have seen it on a few places since.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 3, 2012)

If one thing is certain about these kind of horrible events, it's that people everywhere will use them to feel better about themselves.


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## framed (Oct 4, 2012)

It just gets worse, they've now revealed that the kid has cerebral palsy and that if she is still alive she is likely to be suffering severe pain without her medication.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 4, 2012)

Fucking hell.


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## Firky (Oct 4, 2012)

I wish I never read that.


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## framed (Oct 4, 2012)

I wish I hadn't watched the feckin ITV Wales News bulletin mate.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2012)

This is just so fucking awful.


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## Nylock (Oct 4, 2012)




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## Celt (Oct 4, 2012)

I hope they find her soon.


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## weltweit (Oct 4, 2012)

Celt said:


> I hope they find her soon.


I hope they find her alive.


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## gabi (Oct 4, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> I'm glad I missed that. That person sounds like a total idiot. Has that person, or others like him/her, had a _proper think_ about why the Police don't want people like them getting in the way any more? (Clearly not!  ) Framed's post rings all too true to me I fear ...


 
this was just posted on the guardian. one of the volunteer leaders who've been asked to stay away by the police..

'we have to hope that the police are on a wrong lead, so we can find the little girl'


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## Firky (Oct 4, 2012)

That's a syrup if I ever saw one, he seems slightly drunk too.


Road to hell and good intentions and all that, must be bloody frustrating for the police though.


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## Teaboy (Oct 4, 2012)

^^^^^^
fwiw I understood that to mean the police are searching for a body we hope they have it wrong and she is still alive somewhere.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2012)

I fear the river is going to play a part in all this.

I guess the guy they arrested is saying that he just gave her a lift - she got in willingly - and unless some other evidence comes up, then even the abduction charge may be hard to stick. And, of course he could be telling the truth and something else may have happened.


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## scifisam (Oct 4, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Well it is certainly true that the vast and hyperbolic media coverage has made it pretty much impossible for any possible kidnapper to have an incentive to release her unharmed.
> Well done, national media, applause.


 
But when she was just missing (perhaps got lost) and they wanted her to be found, sharing her name and picture as much as possible would have helped with that. And the consequences for any kidnapper would be pretty severe, media coverage or not.


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## Firky (Oct 4, 2012)

The police seem to be convinced it is him but can't pin it on him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19828904

If it isn't him, then his life is pretty much ruined. Name, age, photo, even his car registration out in the public domain.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 4, 2012)

editor said:


> I fear the river is going to play a part in all this.
> 
> I guess the guy they arrested is saying that he just gave her a lift - she got in willingly - and unless some other evidence comes up, then even the abduction charge may be hard to stick. And, of course he could be telling the truth and something else may have happened.


 


firky said:


> The police seem to be convinced it is him but can't pin it on him.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19828904
> 
> If it isn't him, then his life is pretty much ruined. Name, age, photo, even his car registration out in the public domain.


 
That's the thing, innit. Look at the other guys in the past who have been arrested or brought in for questioning, and the way they've had their lives raked over the coals by the likes of Sky et al, and it's turned out that they had nothing to do with anything. Not saying this guy is necessarily innocent or guilty, there's plenty of stuff none of us are privvy to that only the police know, and that the police even don't know yet I'm sure. But I can't help feeling uncomfortable when the moment someone is questioned people start calling for his hanging, etc. It's a nasty fucking business. All of it.


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## UrbaneFox (Oct 4, 2012)

silverfish said:


> its always the interviewed "volunteer" or step uncle that does it


 
Or grandma's new boyfriend.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 4, 2012)

Frightening


firky said:


> The police seem to be convinced it is him but can't pin it on him.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19828904
> 
> If it isn't him, then his life is pretty much ruined. Name, age, photo, even his car registration out in the public domain.


Hopefully Chris Jefferies has survived all the crap that was chucked at him.

Ironic that at the same time in the news is the story of a father who stabbed his two children to death when committing suicide - and that's by no means the first.


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## Firky (Oct 4, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


> Ironic that at the same time in the news is the story of a father who stabbed his two children to death when committing suicide - and that's by no means the first.


 
Whilst one of the children had to watch his sibling murdered violently at the hands of the father he loved. Horrific.


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## Mr Moose (Oct 4, 2012)

On the subject of the above the following appeared on Tuesday in the 'Evening Standard' credited to Mark Blunden, Justin Davenport and John Dunne.

Today, Mrs Pedersen was being comforted by relatives at her semi-detached home in Ashford, Surrey. Strewn inside the porch were reminders of a normal family life: a pink fairy rucksack, school shoes, trainers and a PE bag bearing the logo of Ashford Church of England Primary School. A man who answered the door said only 'She needs to have time to grieve'.

And I thought, 'Own up the cunt who actually went and knocked on her door and peered inside'.

What on Earth are you hoping for other than some misery to monetise as grief tourism?


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## Iguana (Oct 4, 2012)

People of the interwebs (not here) are seriously fucking me off. What is with people that they have to judge the parents for allowing their child to play outside, insinuate the mother was screwing the man in custody, get massively suspicious about the medication angle because the rolling 'news' stations ignored it until last night implying the parents are crooked somehow, call for the torture of the suspect, pass around internet gossip about the girl's 'real father' as if it was concrete fact or all of the above? Then get pissy because someone points out some of the known facts that contradict their pet theory. People suck.


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## Lemon Eddy (Oct 4, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


> Ironic that at the same time in the news is the story of a father who stabbed his two children to death when committing suicide


 
Got to admit, my faith in mankind's taken a bit of a kicking in the last few days.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2012)

It's absolutely right and normal that children living in tiny towns should play outside and feel safe.


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## Poot (Oct 4, 2012)

editor said:


> It's absolutely right and normal that children living in tiny towns should play outside and feel safe.


Of course, and they still should. This is a one in a million occurrence. Devastating of course, but really very very rare.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 4, 2012)

Iguana said:


> People of the interwebs (not here) are seriously fucking me off. What is with people that they have to judge the parents for allowing their child to play outside, insinuate the mother was screwing the man in custody, get massively suspicious about the medication angle because the rolling 'news' stations ignored it until last night implying the parents are crooked somehow, call for the torture of the suspect, pass around internet gossip about the girl's 'real father' as if it was concrete fact or all of the above? Then get pissy because someone points out some of the known facts that contradict their pet theory. People suck.


 
Absolutely agree. It's like a pack of vultures circling around, who would probably be quite happy if the worst happened, so they could pick over the details with some kind of horrific glee, puffing up their chests as they ensure they make themselves feel superior through their analyses and judgements of all involved.


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## UrbaneFox (Oct 4, 2012)

Mr Moose said:


> Today, Mrs Pedersen was being comforted by relatives at her semi-detached home in Ashford, Surrey. Strewn inside the porch were reminders of a normal family life: a pink fairy rucksack, school shoes, trainers and a PE bag bearing the logo of Ashford Church of England Primary School. A man who answered the door said only 'She needs to have time to grieve'.


 
Return of the Amateur Sleuth: Surely she will only grieve when the child is found dead.

They are obviously useless; the Daily Mail would have included the value of the house, number of bedrooms, detached or semi-, details of luxury items, flat screen TVs, wine racks etc.


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## Iguana (Oct 4, 2012)

Poot said:


> Of course, and they still should. This is a one in a million occurrence. Devastating of course, but really very very rare.


And if it turns out that Mark Bridger is the one who took her then it's not even a stranger abduction. She will have been taken by someone she trusted, who could most likely have taken her at any opportunity.


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 4, 2012)

Every day that goes past I just feel sadder and sadder. I wouldnt wish a child being taken on anyone.


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## trampie (Oct 4, 2012)

I hope little April is found safe and well, i know time is going on but we must hope and pray for a good outcome.


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## Nylock (Oct 5, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> Return of the Amateur Sleuth: Surely she will only grieve when the child is found dead.
> 
> They are obviously useless; the Daily Mail would have included the value of the house, number of bedrooms, detached or semi-, details of luxury items, flat screen TVs, wine racks etc.


Sorry for the correction here but what mr moose quoted was to do with the earlier mentioned murder-suicide where a father killed his two young children and then topped himself. Fucking tragic stuff


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## editor (Oct 5, 2012)

Each time I click on this thread I'm fearful of the worst.

Please let her be alive.


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## shagnasty (Oct 5, 2012)

If the suspect hasn't been charged how much longer can they hold him.I am asking because i am not certain if he as been charged


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## weltweit (Oct 5, 2012)

shagnasty said:


> If the suspect hasn't been charged how much longer can they hold him.I am asking because i am not certain if he as been charged


I think on current arrangements they can question him until 5pm Friday.
Mind you I don't know if the police are permitted to apply for a further extension or not.

eta: afaik they have not charged him with anything.


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## Dandred (Oct 5, 2012)

People calling for CCTV to be installed in my old town of about 3000 people.
It's just 20 mins from Mach.


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## pinkmonkey (Oct 5, 2012)

editor said:


> It's absolutely right and normal that children living in tiny towns should play outside and feel safe.


Go to South Tottenham, bottom of Stamford Hill and you'll see two year olds playing out unsupervised by anyone except their slightly older siblings. Of course there are adults keeping an eye - the Jewish community has their own 'vigilantes', but it's not at all obvious.  The community keeps them safe, no need for cctv.


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## yardbird (Oct 5, 2012)

Mark Bridger has now been arrested on suspicion of murder


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## xsunnysuex (Oct 5, 2012)

Said on tv he's been charged?


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 5, 2012)

Arrested on suspicion. He obviously hasnt admitted it. They must have damming evidence.


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## gabi (Oct 5, 2012)

Presumably that gives them more time to question him. They're gambling on finding a body.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 5, 2012)

Oh fuck. It's so dreadful. Makes me sick.


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## Dan U (Oct 5, 2012)

not looking good is it


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## bendeus (Oct 5, 2012)

So hope ends, not that there was ever very much in the first place. That poor, poor child. 

It amazes me that the 'urges' this bastard must have had locked up within him were sufficiently strong as to cause him to take a path of action that would destroy the lives of a family, and in doing so, his own. He must have known he'd be caught, surely?

Welcome to a lifetime of trembling on the nonce wing hoping none of the normal prisoners ever get to you, you fucking piece of shit.


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## gabi (Oct 5, 2012)

bendeus said:


> Welcome to a lifetime of trembling on the nonce wing hoping none of the normal prisoners ever get to you, you fucking piece of shit.


 
Might not be as simple as him being a nonce according to some rumours on twitter.


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## agricola (Oct 5, 2012)

gabi said:


> Presumably that gives them more time to question him. They're gambling on finding a body.


 
It wont give them any more time to question him, the only person that can do that is the magistrate (and even then there is a limit to how much that can be given, and there has to be clear reasons for doing so).


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 5, 2012)

Hasn't he had 60 hours in custody already? Surely they'll have to charge him soon, or he walks?


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## agricola (Oct 5, 2012)




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## agricola (Oct 5, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Hasn't he had 60 hours in custody already? Surely they'll have to charge him soon, or he walks?


 
I think they can get one more lot of 36 hours, then thats it before he has to get charged with something.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 5, 2012)

Kay Burley...getting it for this rubbish interview technique:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/alex-hern/2012/10/crashing-insensitivity-kay-burley

ETA: Snap! with post above.


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## yardbird (Oct 5, 2012)

Note that he has been re-arrested on suspicion of murder.
Time up on abduction charge so they can now hold him and get the time to question him all over again.
This is all so depressing.


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## gabi (Oct 5, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Kay Burley...getting it for this rubbish interview technique:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/alex-hern/2012/10/crashing-insensitivity-kay-burley
> 
> ETA: Snap! with post above.


 
She's a cunt. But this detail is quite crucial to that.



> For context, the woman who Kay Burley is speaking to is said to have approached Burley asking her what happened.


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## bendeus (Oct 5, 2012)

gabi said:


> Might not be as simple as him being a nonce according to some rumours on twitter.


 
Is this the stuff around his being the biological father of April or something else? Twitter is about as reliable as my large intestines after a jalfrezi though, surely?


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## Looby (Oct 5, 2012)

Why are the public ignoring what the police have told them and still insisting on searching? The police have clearly said the only people that should be searching now are training search teams and I'm sure there are bloody good reasons for this.

It's wonderful that people have given up their time and all but just fucking back off.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2012)

sparklefish said:


> Why are the public ignoring what the police have told them and still insisting on searching? The police have clearly said the only people that should be searching now are training search teams and I'm sure there are bloody good reasons for this.
> 
> It's wonderful that people have given up their time and all but just fucking back off.


that's because this is the most important thing which these people will ever have done.

it gives meaning to their lives.


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## kebabking (Oct 5, 2012)

sparklefish said:


> Why are the public ignoring what the police have told them and still insisting on searching? The police have clearly said the only people that should be searching now are training search teams and I'm sure there are bloody good reasons for this.
> 
> It's wonderful that people have given up their time and all but just fucking back off.


 
i've heard from a friend in Mach- yes, i know... that lots of people there have a nasty suspiscion that the Police have fucked up the investigation, they've arrested the local weirdo and taken the investigation down a dead end while other possibilities existed that they've not looked at because, and i quote,  'wild-arsed guess powered searches all over the Cambrian mountains and Snowdonia done by the public aren't what modern policing is all about..'

thats not to say i don't agree with you - well intentioned but unco-ordinated random searches by the public are astonishingly unlikely to find anything, and might well just get in the way, but thats the motivation.

and of course there are more than a few griefwhores, walter mittys, and the psychologically ill who are making hay in the media spotlight, doing not a little harm, and causing enormous anger. Media really getting it as well - just being so intrusive and insensitive.

and its not just Sky...


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## Iguana (Oct 5, 2012)

kebabking said:


> thats not to say i don't agree with you - well intentioned but unco-ordinated random searches by the public are astonishingly unlikely to find anything, and might well just get in the way, but thats the motivation.


Not just get in the way. If they do find anything, what are the odds of them backing off immediately and calling in the professional forensic people so as not to contaminate any evidence? Not likely I'd guess, especially as there are reports of people using their (not specially trained) dogs to help search.


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## cantsin (Oct 5, 2012)

sparklefish said:


> Why are the public ignoring what the police have told them and still insisting on searching? The police have clearly said the only people that should be searching now are training search teams and I'm sure there are bloody good reasons for this.
> 
> It's wonderful that people have given up their time and all but just fucking back off.


 
it's a circus, there's nothing rational about any of it, a personal tragedy churned into a 24hr news event, some people think they can become be part of the spectacle. not just passive consumers of it.


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## bendeus (Oct 5, 2012)

cantsin said:


> it's a circus, there's nothing rational about any of it, a personal tragedy churned into a 24hr news event, some people think they can become be part of the spectacle. not just passive consumers of it.


 
Hmmm. It's a small, tight-knit community in which a large number would have known April or her parents, or would have kids in school with her, etc. To dismiss the genuine efforts of local people as simply a 'circus' is a bit off, IMO. Yes, you'll have your gawkers, grief whores and spectacle seekers, but you'll also have a lot of people who live locally and have been personally touched by the tragedy who want to express their solidarity and empathy in _some _way. I would say that many can't just sit there passively; they feel compelled to 'do something', even though many must have known that it was never, ever going to end well.


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## treelover (Oct 5, 2012)

Yes, there may be hangers on, etc, but as i said at the top of the thread Mach really is a very close and cohesive community and yes,(for the critics) that includes most newcomers. I have considered moving there and I know the place well and have attended a number of events at the community centre where the media is now encamped, it is so so sad and can't imagine what it is like there at the moment.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 5, 2012)

editor said:


> It's absolutely right and normal that children living in tiny towns should play outside and feel safe.


...and in big cities.


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## Looby (Oct 5, 2012)

bendeus said:


> Hmmm. It's a small, tight-knit community in which a large number would have known April or her parents, or would have kids in school with her, etc. To dismiss the genuine efforts of local people as simply a 'circus' is a bit off, IMO. Yes, you'll have your gawkers, grief whores and spectacle seekers, but you'll also have a lot of people who live locally and have been personally touched by the tragedy who want to express their solidarity and empathy in _some _way. I would say that many can't just sit there passively; they feel compelled to 'do something', even though many must have known that it was never, ever going to end well.



Of course, but there are people driving from Manchester then complaining when they get there that the police won't let them help.

It must be very hard for the local community and they want to help etc but what's actually important is finding the girl and getting enough evidence to convict if she is dead. They need to put their own feelings aside, let the police do what they need to them support this poor family when the sky news/grief porn circus has left town.


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## gabi (Oct 5, 2012)

bendeus said:


> Is this the stuff around his being the biological father of April or something else? Twitter is about as reliable as my large intestines after a jalfrezi though, surely?


 
That's the gist of it. As you say though, Twitter's about as reliable as Sky News.

In other more reassuring news...



> One of the world's leading forensic psychologists who advised British and Portuguese police in the search for Madeleine McCann is reportedly helping detectives.


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## cantsin (Oct 5, 2012)

bendeus said:


> Hmmm. It's a small, tight-knit community in which a large number would have known April or her parents, or would have kids in school with her, etc. To dismiss the genuine efforts of local people as simply a 'circus' is a bit off, IMO. Yes, you'll have your gawkers, grief whores and spectacle seekers, but you'll also have a lot of people who live locally and have been personally touched by the tragedy who want to express their solidarity and empathy in _some _way. I would say that many can't just sit there passively; they feel compelled to 'do something', even though many must have known that it was never, ever going to end well.


 
I thought it was pretty clear what I was  "dismissing" as a "circus", and it wasn't  " the genuine efforts of local people" - clue : multi national news corps gorging in the trough of 24hrs a day free content.


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## bendeus (Oct 5, 2012)

I don't think it was that clear, TBH, but this isn't the thread for a bunfight, and I acknowledge I may have read your post wrong


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## aqua (Oct 5, 2012)

Iguana said:


> I read it first on a parenting forum (along with a lot of "I'm not blaming anyone but 5 year olds should be in bed at 7pm, not out on the street" type comments) but have seen it on a few places since.


I'm not defending this of course, but sometimes the "5 year olds should be in bed by 7pm" thing to me sometimes reads as "of course this type of thing wouldn't happen to ME because x is in bed by this time". Almost a coping strategy with what is a truly horrible, frightening thing to happen to a little child. I can't even begin (nor do I want to) imagine what her Mum feels right now. I can't. I can't even consider it for a moment. So by saying she should be in bed by x time, is more reassuring myself not anything else, because THIS incident couldn't have happened.

Does that make sense? I'm not justifying those thoughts that they have posted, and I don't understand why people need to fucking judge other parents at the best of times, let alone in this situation  I just wanted to say how I think sometimes.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 5, 2012)

bendeus said:


> I don't think it was that clear, TBH, but this isn't the thread for a bunfight, and I acknowledge I may have read your post wrong


 
re-reading it , I see  your point ---- by "some people think they can become be part of the spectacle. not just passive consumers of it." i was refferring to those being bombarded by the news and responding, not the locals . it was about as clear as mud tbh.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 5, 2012)

cantsin said:


> re-reading it , I see your point ---- by "some people think they can become be part of the spectacle. not just passive consumers of it." i was refferring to those being bombarded by the news and responding, not the locals . it was about as clear as mud tbh.


 
Aye. Some of the responses from the people of Mach have been wonderful, as has the fact that they have collectively acted as a community knit together by more than proximity. They're trying to _say _something to themselves, April's parents and the world, IMO. The Sky news goons wanting to be able to say 'I was there' are fucking idiots, though. OK magazine, Dianaesque grief tourism at it's very, very worst.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 5, 2012)

The people attacking the news corps for their 'grief porn' must surely be watching those very same channels themselves to know it is occurring?


----------



## DexterTCN (Oct 5, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> The people attacking the news corps for their 'grief porn' must surely be watching those very same channels themselves to know it is occurring?


Detesting newscorp does not detract from the resources they have.


----------



## Iguana (Oct 5, 2012)

aqua said:


> I'm not defending this of course, but sometimes the "5 year olds should be in bed by 7pm" thing to me sometimes reads as "of course this type of thing wouldn't happen to ME because x is in bed by this time". Almost a coping strategy with what is a truly horrible, frightening thing to happen to a little child. I can't even begin (nor do I want to) imagine what her Mum feels right now. I can't. I can't even consider it for a moment. So by saying she should be in bed by x time, is more reassuring myself not anything else, because THIS incident couldn't have happened.
> 
> Does that make sense? I'm not justifying those thoughts that they have posted, and I don't understand why people need to fucking judge other parents at the best of times, let alone in this situation  I just wanted to say how I think sometimes.


 
It does make sense, it's just so frustrating that this family appears like a loving responsible family who obviously felt it was not only safe for their child to play outside but possibly considered allowing her that freedom an important, healthy part of a normal childhood and they get castigated for it at what is going to be the worst time of their lives. The odds are that at some point they, their friends/families will see those types of comments and they could make them feel worse.


----------



## JeffWode (Oct 5, 2012)

treelover said:


> Yes, there may be hangers on, etc, but as i said at the top of the thread Mach really is a very close and cohesive community and yes,(for the critics) that includes most newcomers. I have considered moving there and I know the place well and have attended a number of events at the community centre where the media is now encamped, it is so so sad and can't imagine what it is like there at the moment.


 
Oh God, please don't...Mach doesn't need any more tree-huggers.


----------



## gabi (Oct 5, 2012)

what the fuck is wrong with these people. do they seriously think this is their chance at their 15 minutes?



> The Guardian's*Steven Morris*, in Machynlleth, writes that some volunteers are refusing to give up the search for April, despite the police request that they leave it to the professionals.
> 
> There is hardly a person in Machynlleth – residents, visitors, media, police, searchers – who is not wearing a pink ribbon.​​Kirsty Jones, 16, a friend of April's sister, Jasmine, was walking down the main street carrying a basket filled with ribbons. She was handing them out and collecting donations for April's family. “People still have hope,” she said.​​At Wheeler Fabrics, they ran out of pink ribbon on Thursday after April's family appealed for people to wear a splash of pink as a symbol of hope. They had more in on Friday and three staff members were turning them into bows and giving them to the constant stream of people coming into the shop for them.​​Over at the Losin Lush sweet shop, Alyson Jones and two friends were busy putting sweets into bags to be handed out to schoolmates of April's. Earlier in the week she had been busy liaising with independent sweetshops across the country, asking them to be on the look-out for anyone with a young child acting suspiciously ...​​ Although police asked volunteers not to carry on searching, some of them defied the request and went out.​​Carl Jones, from Machynlleth, one of the organisers of the search run by local people that has run parallel with the police effort, said: “The police have spoken with us and told us the search is for a body. We're trying to work out what to do next. I do know that groups have gone out searching since the police announcement. We continue to hope.”


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 5, 2012)

gabi said:


> what the fuck is wrong with these people. do they seriously think this is their chance at their 15 minutes?


 
I prefer to think that they care deeply and want to feel that they are doing something, anything, to support the family.


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## gabi (Oct 5, 2012)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I prefer to think that they care deeply and want to feel that they are doing something, anything, to support the family.


 
Like, say, maybe stopping getting in the way of the trained professionals?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 5, 2012)

gabi said:


> Like, say, maybe stopping getting in the way of the trained professionals?


 
Oh, yes I understand that.  But I'm trying to understand their motivation.


----------



## likesfish (Oct 5, 2012)

Probably want to do something anything even if its pointless


----------



## kebabking (Oct 5, 2012)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Oh, yes I understand that. But I'm trying to understand their motivation.


 
the motivation is that lots of people in Mach - and not just wierdos who've turned up to validate themselves - are thinking that the Police have had Bridger for 4 days, that, assuming he is responsible, he had less than 24hrs with the Child before being arrested, and somehow the Police have not been able to find her.

there is a view in the town (not everybody, by any means) that unco-ordinated groups of random people looking in woods could, at this stage, be hardly doing a worse job than the Police.

i do not know the truth, it is quite likely that they have the right man and that he has successfully resisted interegation, and he has been able to cover his tracks in the 24hr period between Aprils abduction and his arrest, so that the police have not been able to penetrate what happened and therefore find her. it is however possible that they're barking up the wrong tree, but because there's been so much publicity over the man they've got, and they've got no other leads, they are refusing to back out of the cul-de-sac and say 'we've fcuked-up, hit the hills'.


----------



## Iguana (Oct 5, 2012)

kebabking said:


> the motivation is that lots of people in Mach - and not just wierdos who've turned up to validate themselves - are thinking that the Police have had Bridger for 4 days, that, assuming he is responsible, he had less than 24hrs with the Child before being arrested, and somehow the Police have not been able to find her.


 
Is that really so unbelievable? Assuming it was him who took her he did so in a landrover from right at the edge of an enormous national park which has lots of narrow, most likely camera-less roads and thousands upon thousands of places he could have disposed of a body. Awful as it is, there is a very strong possibility that she will never be found and it's a lot harder to prosecute someone for murder without a body, which is pretty good motivation for him to keep his mouth shut.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2012)

Iguana said:


> most likely camera-less roads .


most roads in london don't have cameras so it's a fucking certainty roads and tracks in that part of wales won't


----------



## Dandred (Oct 5, 2012)

My old band member and school friend, (two years below) is the guy giving out the pink ribbons from his fabric shop.

Two other school friend are still out and about looking for the girl/body.


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 5, 2012)

Would I be right in thinking, that plod only have another 60ish hours to "charge" him, or he can walk?


----------



## agricola (Oct 5, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Would I be right in thinking, that plod only have another 60ish hours to "charge" him, or he can walk?


 
No, its probably between 20 and 30 hours.


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 5, 2012)

If he did do it I wish he woyld just be a man and say where the body is.


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 5, 2012)

Either way his life is pretty much over even if he is innocent.


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## weltweit (Oct 6, 2012)

So, the police have until 5pm today (Saturday) to either charge or release Mark Bridger.
Surely it is unthinkable that they would release him, after all this time.


----------



## tommers (Oct 6, 2012)

weltweit said:


> So, the police have until 5pm today (Saturday) to either charge or release Mark Bridger.
> Surely it is unthinkable that they would release him, after all this time.



I wouldn't want to be him if they did.


----------



## dylans (Oct 6, 2012)

weltweit said:


> So, the police have until 5pm today (Saturday) to either charge or release Mark Bridger.
> Surely it is unthinkable that they would release him, after all this time.


As I understand it, before charging someone the police have to present a case to the DPP demonstrating that there is enough evidence to take to trial. Presumably if there is no evidence to take to the DPP then there is no case against him and he is to be presumed innocent.

It is possible of course that he is genuinely innocent in which case not only is an innocent man sitting in custody but the real perpetrator is out there somewhere. Of course that won't stop the idiots from wanting to lynch him anyway

It occurs to me that perhaps no body will ever be found and if so that presents the awful prospect that noone will ever pay for this crime and that someone will get away with child murder.That's a very frightening prospect

This case presents some unique difficulties, most obviously no body but also the fact that the eye witnesses to the abduction are all very young children. Even forensic evidence from the car is tainted because it is known that April had been in the car on previous occasions, so even if they find dna or other forensic evidence in the car, it means nothing. Imagine taking all that to a trial?


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 6, 2012)

tommers said:


> I wouldn't want to be him if they did.



Definately not. Would the police have a responsibilty to protect hin from the public.


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## weltweit (Oct 6, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> Definately not. Would the police have a responsibilty to protect hin from the public.


I would have thought so.


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 6, 2012)

Surely the law has to change, regards protecting the identity of people arrested on suspicion? Something like this could happen to any of us - wrong place wrong time, face doesn't fit etc - & before you know it you're the face on the front of every tabloid & news bulletin, & a daily mail reading lynch mob hiding around every corner. It's happened before & it's still happening! 

I for one couldn't return to Mach, & I doubt Bridger could either. I'd be wanting a sufficient amount of cash to be able to fuck off & start again. 

Someone (by law) has to be held to account for destroying the lives of innocent people. This in no way detracts from the despicable crime that has happened.


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## Ranbay (Oct 6, 2012)

They have charged him with 3 things, Abduction, Murder and perverting the course of justice.


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## tommers (Oct 6, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> They have charged him with 3 things, Abduction, Murder and perverting the course of justice.


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## Ranbay (Oct 6, 2012)

Press conference shortly.


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## Quartz (Oct 6, 2012)

I hope they've got more evidence than, "He's a paedo." and "Some children say they saw her getting into his car."


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 6, 2012)

A confession maybe?


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## shygirl (Oct 6, 2012)

Dreadful news.   The poor family.  Let's hope they find her body so that the family can lay her to rest.


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## shygirl (Oct 6, 2012)

Perhaps the option of being released didn't appeal too much, so he confessed?


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## yardbird (Oct 6, 2012)

shygirl said:


> Dreadful news. The poor family. Let's hope they find her body so that the family can lay her to rest.


This ^


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## yardbird (Oct 6, 2012)

I really don't like this undercurrent of possible mob violence and vigilante action


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## geminisnake (Oct 6, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I really don't like this undercurrent of possible mob violence and vigilante action


 
You are SUPPOSED to be innocent until proven guilty. It saddens me that(sometimes) long before a person is even charged there is a 'trial' by media. It is wrong imo.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 6, 2012)

...and the CPS have also given a specific warning.



			
				Iwan Jenkins CPS said:
			
		

> *The huge public and media interest in this case is understandable.*
> 
> *I would just like to stress that, whilst Mark Bridger stands accused of serious criminal charges, he retains the right to a fair trial.*
> *I would therefore ask that nothing is placed in the public domain that may undermine the criminal justice process.*


 
If anything gets posted or has been posted that may undermine the trial please report the post. Thank you.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 6, 2012)

geminisnake said:


> You are SUPPOSED to be innocent until proven guilty. It saddens me that(sometimes) long before a person is even charged there is a 'trial' by media. It is wrong imo.


 
I think that's what is meant by most people when they question whether there should be so much news coverage. I know people have responded saying that his face needs to go on tv so as to get any witnesses to come forward, to jog memories and so on, and I accept that. I don't think it's that most people have a problem with. It's that it segues into a sensationalised carnival atmosphere by the media, desperately trying to grab onto anything to keep people watching. Ratings. If it bleeds it leads. Etc.

Surely it's a symptom, to a large extent, of rolling news, spurred on even more so by old monoliths like the Beeb having to compete for people's attention with a whole panoply of new news sources online. And of course, they show what people watch. If people didn't flock to watch this stuff and read about it in their thousands, they'd move onto whatever did hold their interest instead.

It's a messy, murky business, and I don't know what the solution is. It's easy to say that the media outlets should lead by example, but while they exist with their current business models they won't.


----------



## yardbird (Oct 6, 2012)

geminisnake said:


> You are SUPPOSED to be innocent until proven guilty. It saddens me that(sometimes) long before a person is even charged there is a 'trial' by media. It is wrong imo.


In this case I don't think the media made much difference.
In a small community like the one here, word and mouth will be way ahead of the media.
Festering undercurrents, talk about hanging and what you should do to kiddie fiddlers. In the pub, over several drinks, talk of violence and you've got it. Frightening.


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

A Very sad day.



yardbird said:


> In this case I don't think the media made much difference.
> In a small community like the one here, word and mouth will be way ahead of the media.
> Festering undercurrents, talk about hanging and what you should do to kiddie fiddlers. In the pub, over several drinks, talk of violence and you've got it. Frightening.


 
Also the internet has a large part to play, gossip on forums, facebook, twitter etc.

Some of the posts here and speculation regarding Tia Sharp were absolutely fucking disgusting.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 6, 2012)

I just hope that the police have got compelling evidence that Mark Bridger is the culprit, so there can be no doubt, even without a body, when it comes to court.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 6, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Surely the law has to change, regards protecting the identity of people arrested on suspicion? Something like this could happen to any of us - wrong place wrong time, face doesn't fit etc - & before you know it you're the face on the front of every tabloid & news bulletin, & a daily mail reading lynch mob hiding around every corner. It's happened before & it's still happening!
> 
> I for one couldn't return to Mach, & I doubt Bridger could either. I'd be wanting a sufficient amount of cash to be able to fuck off & start again.
> 
> Someone (by law) has to be held to account for destroying the lives of innocent people. This in no way detracts from the despicable crime that has happened.


It's pretty unusual, tbf, for the police to release the identity of someone they're questioning. That normally happens once charges are brought. But in this case they are still searching for the little girl, so wanted information. He'd already been named locally anyway.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 6, 2012)

So, now that he has been charged, what can we discuss, and what not?


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

weltweit said:


> I just hope that the police have got compelling evidence that Mark Bridger is the culprit, so there can be no doubt, even without a body, when it comes to court.


 
The CPS will decide if there's enough evidence to go to court, not the police.

Providing he does not "commit suicide" in police custody as is sometimes the way


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 6, 2012)

The CPS has decided there os enough evidence. I just hope they find her body so the family know for sure.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 6, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> The CPS has decided there os enough evidence. I just hope they find her body so the family know for sure.


Perhaps they have got some DNA. The abduction charge will stick but without a body the murder one is impossible unless he confesses. If he dumped the body in the river it is possible that she will never be found. The parents will have this on their mind for the rest of their lives.


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 6, 2012)

Something significant would have happened for them to change it from abduction to murder. There must be evidence of that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2012)

let's all see if we can guess what's happened and the nearest person to what's actually gone on can brag about it.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 6, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> let's all see if we can guess what's happened and the nearest person to what's actually gone on can brag about it.


 
Sadly that tends to be a big part of it all. People love offering up theories, so they can sound so terribly learned, and then being vindicated when the facts come to light.

I also find the element of these kind of things being a mass shared experience interesting as well.


----------



## geminisnake (Oct 6, 2012)

weltweit said:


> So, now that he has been charged, what can we discuss, and what not?


 
Out of curiosity why do we need to discuss it at all?? We don't KNOW anything, none of us was there, surely whatever is discussed is speculation??
I really don't like threads like this. Think I'll go away again   I didn't go into the Tai Sharp thread afaik. I don't know who she is and I don't need to.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 6, 2012)

geminisnake said:


> Out of curiosity why do we need to discuss it at all??


I don't think it is unreasonable to want to discuss issues around this, it is an important news story and an appalling one. I for example would quite like to discuss Sarah's law and its differences from Megan's Law, because of this case. Perhaps though I should just start a new thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2012)

weltweit said:


> I don't think it is unreasonable to want to discuss issues around this, it is an important news story and an appalling one. I for example would quite like to discuss Sarah's law and its differences from Megan's Law, because of this case. Perhaps though I should just start a new thread.


perhaps you should.


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 6, 2012)

I was under the impression this was a forum were you discuss issues. If you dont want to discuss it, you simply dont have too. 
This is a sensitive subject and I dont see anyone here point scoring over the murder of an innocent child. But because it has been so horrific, it is pretty normal for people to want to try and make some sense of what has happened. 
That's where my heart is anyway.


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> Something significant would have happened for them to change it from abduction to murder. There must be evidence of that.


 
Yeah, that's what makes me think his land rover contained something too macabre to think about. Nonsense I know but can't help but think of it


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> I was under the impression this was a forum were you discuss issues. If you dont want to discuss it, you simply dont have too.
> This is a sensitive subject and I dont see anyone here point scoring over the murder of an innocent child. But because it has been so horrific, it is pretty normal for people to want to try and make some sense of what has happened.
> That's where my heart is anyway.


 
Welcome to urban75, the great bun fight on the internet.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> Also the internet has a large part to play, gossip on forums, facebook, twitter etc.
> 
> Some of the posts here and *speculation* regarding Tia Sharp were absolutely fucking disgusting.


 


firky said:


> The CPS will decide if there's enough evidence to go to court, not the police.
> 
> Providing he does not "commit suicide" in police custody as is sometimes the way


----------



## UrbaneFox (Oct 6, 2012)

geminisnake said:


> I really don't like threads like this. Think I'll go away again


 
Me too. I disgust myself every time I come to this thread.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> Yeah, that's what makes me think his land rover contained something too macabre to think about. Nonsense I know but can't help but think of it


 
You need to get out more.

Edit: Now, if you'll excuse me I have some humbugs to eat, whilst sitting on the moral high ground, of course.


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> Welcome to urban75, the great bun fight on the internet.


Sounds like fun. Hmmmm lol


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> You need to get out more.


 
I do not have that option.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> Yeah, that's what makes me think his land rover contained something too macabre to think about. Nonsense I know but can't help but think of it


 
Why nonsense? The assumption has to be that there is some reasonable forensic evidence on his clothes or Landy, at least enough to be worth charging him in the meantime while the body hunt carries on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Why nonsense? The assumption has to be that there is some reasonable forensic evidence on his clothes or Landy, at least enough to be worth charging him in the meantime while the body hunt carries on.


or a confession


----------



## UrbaneFox (Oct 6, 2012)

firky said:


> I do not have that option.


 
I didn't know that. Sorry.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 6, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> or a confession


 
He'd be daft to say anything but "no comment", and presumably he has some sort of solicitor.


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 6, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> He'd be daft to say anything but "no comment", and presumably he has some sort of solicitor.


If he was any type of man he would spill his guts. Obviously not.


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

Or a confession, yup. 

We'll find out eventually.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> He'd be daft to say anything but "no comment", and presumably he has some sort of solicitor.


more likely a confession imo than forensics because they'd have charged him without approaching the deadline if they'd material evidence.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 6, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> more likely a confession imo than forensics because they'd have charged him without approaching the deadline if they'd material evidence.


 
Forensics might be just enough to allow the CPS to charge, but not enough to make the chances of success more than 50/50. The CPS are, presumably, pragmatists and would be aware of the reaction they'd get if they let wossname wander off into the sunset.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> let's all see if we can guess what's happened and the nearest person to what's actually gone on can brag about it.





Maurice Picarda said:


> Forensics might be just enough to allow the CPS to charge, but not enough to make the chances of success more than 50/50. The CPS are, presumably, pragmatists and would be aware of the reaction they'd get if they let wossname wander off into the sunset.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Oct 6, 2012)

I still think it was Grandma's new boyfriend. £20 max.


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 6, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> I still think it was Grandma's new boyfriend. £20 max.


I know you are trying to be funny, but its inappropriate in this thread.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 6, 2012)

The 72 hour grace period before levity is allowed has long passed, I'm afraid, Chrissy.

 UrbaneFox, I'll take your £20.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Oct 6, 2012)

Chrissy, is that a fact?


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 6, 2012)

Oh dear.....


----------



## twentythreedom (Oct 6, 2012)

Just a thought: at what point in these situations does sick / dark etc humour become at least partially acceptable?


----------



## twentythreedom (Oct 6, 2012)

^^actually that's a pretty crap question but I'll let it stand anyway.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 6, 2012)

The formula is complicated. It would have been five days had Jones not been a Welsh.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 6, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Just a thought: at what point in these situations does sick / dark etc humour become at least partially acceptable?


 
Now. Time to put those tired old Maddie jokes to bed.


----------



## Firky (Oct 6, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> I still think it was Grandma's new boyfriend. £20 max.


 
At least wait until the child is found, buried and the parents have grieved, eh?


----------



## UrbaneFox (Oct 6, 2012)

I think that everyone who has visited and commented on this thread had at least a 99% idea as to what had happened.

No need for this faintheartedness now.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 7, 2012)

Ah, saturday night post pub commentary.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 7, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Just a thought: at what point in these situations does sick / dark etc humour become at least partially acceptable?


 
The worst joke i had came Tuesday afternoon.


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 7, 2012)

Lets hope you never have to go through the pain of losing a child. Im sure you wont be salivating to make jokes about it.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Oct 7, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Just a thought: at what point in these situations does sick / dark etc humour become at least partially acceptable?


Not yet, it would seem: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19863228


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 7, 2012)

Apropos, some poor sod from Chorley is now in jug for blaspheming against the people's beloved tot. Utterly absurd.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19863228


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## weltweit (Oct 7, 2012)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Not yet, it would seem: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19863228


 
Hmm, sounds like section 127 of the Communications Act should be required reading for people posting on the internet.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Oct 7, 2012)

Sounds like he made some variation of the Maddy McCann hide-and-seek champion joke and it blew up in his face on Facebook. I think it's not so much not being aware of the ins-and-outs of the Communications Act, but more having the bad luck to be in the same social circles as cunts who report bad jokes on Facebook to the police.


----------



## Firky (Oct 7, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> I think that everyone who has visited and commented on this thread had at least a 99% idea as to what had happened.
> 
> No need for this faintheartedness now.


 
It's not a question of "faintheardness" whatever the fuck that is, cunt.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 7, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Hmm, sounds like section 127 of the Communications Act should be required reading for people posting on the internet.


 


> 127
> Improper use of public electronic communications networkE+W+S+N.I.
> This section has no associated Explanatory Notes
> 
> ...


 
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127


----------



## two sheds (Oct 7, 2012)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Sounds like he made some variation of the Maddy McCann hide-and-seek champion joke and it blew up in his face on Facebook. I think it's not so much not being aware of the ins-and-outs of the Communications Act, but more having the bad luck to be in the same social circles as cunts who report bad jokes on Facebook to the police.


 
I wonder what difference there is between making a joke like that on urban as against on Facebook if the offense is "sending a public electronic communication which is grossly offensive". I suspect none at all.


----------



## Firky (Oct 7, 2012)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Sounds like he made some variation of the Maddy McCann hide-and-seek champion joke and it blew up in his face on Facebook. I think it's not so much not being aware of the ins-and-outs of the Communications Act, but more having the bad luck to be in the same social circles as cunts who report bad jokes on Facebook to the police.


 

I don't mind bad taste jokes, I tell them myself - but there's a certain amount of decorum involved. Placing puerile bets on who did it, amending existing old and tired jokes and so on, when it's still in the headlines is a cunts trick on par with reporting said jokes to the police.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 7, 2012)

Not really on a par. This Mancunian is in custody as a result, which is extraordinary.


----------



## Firky (Oct 7, 2012)

Telling jokes about recently injured or dead coppers is perfectly acceptable though.

Trololol.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Oct 7, 2012)

firky said:


> I don't mind bad taste jokes, I tell them myself - but there's a certain amount of decorum involved. Placing puerile bets on who did it, amending existing old and tired jokes and so on, when it's still in the headlines is a cunts trick on par with reporting said jokes to the police.


I disagree. People deal with emotionally affecting events in different ways; some will make jokes almost straight away (and the Stammers thread had a fair few "rape lol" jokes while that still had an unknown outcome). I don't think legislating against - or using existing vaguely phrased legislation to criminalise - anyone making jokes in whatever definition of taste is defined as 'bad' this week is in anyone's interests.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 7, 2012)

So


> (1)A person is guilty of an offence if he—
> 
> 
> (a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
> ...


 my emphasis

Item (c) suggests to me that merely using public communications persistently is of itself an offence. That means that all regular posters on this or other forums are in breach of Section 127


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 7, 2012)

There's some good stuff on the CPS website about how it should be applied, which makes it very difficult to see this as an acceptable use. I can't work out how to copy it though. Wretched Nexus.


----------



## Firky (Oct 7, 2012)

Buddy Bradley said:


> I disagree. People deal with emotionally affecting events in different ways; some will make jokes almost straight away (and the Stammers thread had a fair few "rape lol" jokes while that still had an unknown outcome). I don't think legislating against - or using existing vaguely phrased legislation to criminalise - anyone making jokes in whatever definition of taste is defined as 'bad' this week is in anyone's interests.


 
So you in fact agree with me that reporting bad taste jokes is a cunts trick? You seem to be sitting on the fence and covering your arse from both angles.


----------



## Firky (Oct 7, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> There's some good stuff on the CPS website about how it should be applied, which makes it very difficult to see this as an acceptable use. I can't work out how to copy it though. Wretched Nexus.


 
Keep your finger on the text you want to quote.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 7, 2012)

Buddy Bradley said:


> I disagree. People deal with emotionally affecting events in different ways; some will make jokes almost straight away (and the Stammers thread had a fair few "rape lol" jokes while that still had an unknown outcome). I don't think legislating against - or using existing vaguely phrased legislation to criminalise - anyone making jokes in whatever definition of taste is defined as 'bad' this week is in anyone's interests.


 
It's not enough just to 'like' this. It's a point against which it seems impossible to argue.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Oct 7, 2012)

> A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance to another, he persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network


Pretty much covers 90% of urban.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Oct 7, 2012)

firky said:


> So you in fact agree with me that reporting bad taste jokes is a cunts trick? You seem to be sitting on the fence and covering your arse from both angles.


Yes, I agree with that bit. Not sitting on the fence, have expressed my opinion as clearly as I can.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 7, 2012)

Hocus Eye. said:


> *my emphasis*
> 
> Item *(c) suggests to me that merely using public communications persistently is of itself an offence. That means that all regular posters on this or other forums are in breach of Section 127*


 
No, Item C is a subset of (2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
persists etc etc ..


----------



## Firky (Oct 7, 2012)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Yes, I agree with that bit. Not sitting on the fence, have expressed my opinion as clearly as I can.


 
Yeh, I reread it and agree with you.

I still think telling shite jokes on a thread such as this is a cunt's trick. Like I said there's a certain amount of decorum involved or 'netiquette' if you prefer.

I know urbane didn't deliberately set out to offend people but it's obvious that people on here are going to be. Like I said, at least wait until the media storm is over and the kid ahs been buried.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 7, 2012)

Yes, mind I suppose with Facebook there's more chance of the girl's parents (for example) or someone actually involved becoming aware of the 'joke', and I wouldn't think it at all a cunt's trick if *they* wanted to report someone because of extra distress it caused them.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Oct 7, 2012)

Perhaps, although I still think it's a fools errand to try to legislate against "being offended by something on the internet." What I don't understand is how they ever manage to make the "with intent to cause offence" bit stick, when it's obviously stupid kids making stupid jokes.


----------



## Quartz (Oct 7, 2012)

weltweit said:


> I don't think it is unreasonable to want to discuss issues around this, it is an important news story and an appalling one.


 
Agreed. I would also want to keep an eye on it in case the police are railroading the guy. Not an unknown occurrence. Even a convicted paedo is entitled to the presumption of innocence, and the only evidence that's been made public is that some children said that she got into his van.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 7, 2012)

Locking people up because they tell an insensitive joke, regardless of what that joke is, regardless of whether I find it offensive or not, is completely out of order and I worry very, very much about how much we will tolerate. A lot of people were up in arms when Paul Chambers made his Robin Hood Airport joke, and some very big names made a lot of noise supporting him. As soon as the jokes are off-colour and in bad taste, everyone shuts up. If you defend someone's right to speak in a public forum and say things that might upset some people, you do it for everyone. Where I believe you can make a case for it is if someone is inciting violence and so on, but even then the lines often get blurred depending on our various biases. But as it stands, this, and other recent cases, are very, very troubling.


----------



## YouSir (Oct 7, 2012)

I dislike the time delay on bad jokes, the notion that once the media storm dies down it'll be alright to joke - s'bullshit. If you think it's alright to make a joke in bad taste then do it now, the family aren't going to find it any funnier or more acceptable just because 6 months have passed and the funeral's happened and who gives a damn about the mawkish whinings of those with absolutely no connection to the events? The jokes don't get any less offensive, those grieving aren't going to find them any funnier.


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2012)

For a fan of van-banging (which i am), this morning was pure class. An empty prison van turned up outside the courthouse, live on BBC News - complete with an outraged member of the public banging the fuck out of it, shouting 'tory bastard! 'tory bastard' and a desperately embarrassed sian lloyd trying to drown him out... brilliant.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Oct 8, 2012)

An aquaintence of mine on facebook (someone I know to say alright to, not on my friends list), made a shit joke about this missing kid. It popped up on my feed when mutual friends called him a dickhead for posting it.
Now I make close to the knuckle jokes on fb. But this joke was just wrong. Not only was it not funny, it was a joke about a missing, presumed murdered kid. Yet reporting someone to the police for it. That's just bizarre, it's not like it had any impact on the situation. Let your social circle call you a dickhead. You'll soon feel stupid enough for it.


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 8, 2012)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> An aquaintence of mine on facebook (someone I know to say alright to, not on my friends list), made a shit joke about this missing kid. It popped up on my feed when mutual friends called him a dickhead for posting it.
> Now I make close to the knuckle jokes on fb. But this joke was just wrong. Not only was it not funny, it was a joke about a missing, presumed murdered kid. Yet reporting someone to the police for it. That's just bizarre, it's not like it had any impact on the situation. Let your social circle call you a dickhead. You'll soon feel stupid enough for it.


 
Brilliant case for free speech there.


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2012)

some footwear-based van banging from the mail


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 8, 2012)

There's a consequence for freedom of speech.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Oct 8, 2012)

gabi said:


> For a fan of van-banging (which i am), this morning was pure class. An empty prison van turned up outside the courthouse, live on BBC News - complete with an outraged member of the public banging the fuck out of it,


 
Phew, and I thought I was the only one. Let's form a network - out little secret, of course.



gabi said:


> some footwear-based van banging from the mail


 
Phwoooarrr, reaches for Kleenex.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 8, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> There's a consequence for freedom of speech.


 
Yeah, that sometimes you might get offended. But as Boris said up there, people can call you a twat and never speak to you again if it was so offensive, but you shouldn't get locked up for it.


----------



## a_chap (Oct 8, 2012)

One consequence of freedom of speech is that we have to listen to people on their moral high horses lecturing people about the consequences of the freedom of speech.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 8, 2012)

Joke dude got 12 weeks inside. Hmmmm, that's fucking ridiculous.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 8, 2012)

When I'm feeling optimistic (or naive) I like to think that this is just a period of uncertainty; that the police and courts aren't really sure how to handle social media yet, and so they're testing what their response should be to complaints, just as we're all testing how we deal with them (do we call the person who said something offensive a dick? Do we try to engage with them to explain why what they said was offensive? Or do we report them and hope they get locked up?). And I hope that over time a more balanced approach to it will work its way to the surface (with the first two suggested responses being the norm, and the third only being used in cases where there is sustained harassment where the person involved fears for their safety, or if there is incitement to violence, or whatever). But right now, they are overstepping the mark massively, and when I'm feeling less optimistic it's very easy to think that this is just going to get worse and more repressive. Which, I think, is something we should all oppose very, very loudly and strongly. Slippery slope arguments aren't always the most reliable or sensible, but in a case such as this, it's not that difficult to see a future where someone calling their MP a cunt on twitter might result in a visit from the old bill.


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 8, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Yeah, that sometimes you might get offended. But as Boris said up there, people can call you a twat and never speak to you again if it was so offensive, but you shouldn't get locked up for it.


Yeah Im not sold on the idea. I dont see why the boy waa jailed. Looks to me like he made a stupid error of judgement.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> When I'm feeling optimistic (or naive) I like to think that this is just a period of uncertainty; that the police and courts aren't really sure how to handle social media yet, and so they're testing what their response should be to complaints, just as we're all testing how we deal with them (do we call the person who said something offensive a dick? Do we try to engage with them to explain why what they said was offensive? Or do we report them and hope they get locked up?). And I hope that over time a more balanced approach to it will work its way to the surface (with the first two suggested responses being the norm, and the third only being used in cases where there is sustained harassment where the person involved fears for their safety, or if there is incitement to violence, or whatever). But right now, they are overstepping the mark massively, and when I'm feeling less optimistic it's very easy to think that this is just going to get worse and more repressive. Which, I think, is something we should all oppose very, very loudly and strongly. Slippery slope arguments aren't always the most reliable or sensible, but in a case such as this, it's not that difficult to see a future where someone calling their MP a cunt on twitter might result in a visit from the old bill.


you don't need to call someone a cunt to get a visit from the auld bill

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4879918.stm


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 8, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't need to call someone a cunt to get a visit from the auld bill
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4879918.stm


 
Fucking hell. Next stop, "state approved playlists."


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Fucking hell. Next stop, "state approved playlists."


and there's this from eight years back http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/3773349.stm


----------



## twentythreedom (Oct 8, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> Lets hope you never have to go through the pain of losing a child. Im sure you wont be salivating to make jokes about it.


I wasn't salivating to do anything fwiw, it was a reasonable point to raise.


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 8, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> I wasn't salivating to do anything fwiw, it was a reasonable point to raise.


My own personal opinion is that instances like this, there is never an appropriate time to joke about it. That's if you are a decent human being anyway.


----------



## Corax (Oct 8, 2012)

Can anyone explain to me how the pink ribbons help?  I don't get it.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 8, 2012)

Corax said:


> Can anyone explain to me how the pink ribbons help? I don't get it.


 
If enough people make them their profile picture on facebook then she will come back or something.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 8, 2012)

Disgrace that that lad got banged up for his message. I've seen the message and it's in bad taste, but wtf!?

I'd like to post it up here so you can see, but I'm not even sure that's legal. What the fuck, Britain!?


----------



## Corax (Oct 8, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> If enough people make them their profile picture on facebook then she will come back or something.


Well quite.  I've really not be following the details of the story though.  Are the ribbons being sold to build a fund to help the family, or... I dunno, something else?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> If enough people make them their profile picture on facebook then she will come back or something.


Close, but no cigar. Wearing a pink ribbon is the sign for this girl and her new friend madeleine to stop playing hide and seek and return from neverneverland.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2012)

Corax said:


> Well quite.  I've really not be following the details of the story though.  Are the ribbons being sold to build a fund to help the family, or... I dunno, something else?


Traditionally pink ribbons are breast cancer awareness.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 8, 2012)

Corax said:


> Well quite. I've really not be following the details of the story though. Are the ribbons being sold to build a fund to help the family, or... I dunno, something else?


 
It worked when everyone changed them to cartons and stuff on facebook, nobody got nonced after that


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 8, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Close, but no cigar. Wearing a pink ribbon is the sign for this girl and her new friend madeleine to stop playing hide and seek and return from neverneverland.


 
^ Reported to the police and shit


----------



## UrbaneFox (Oct 8, 2012)

Yes, and you have NO credibility on U75 from now on.


----------



## Firky (Oct 8, 2012)

Corax said:


> Well quite. I've really not be following the details of the story though. Are the ribbons being sold to build a fund to help the family, or... I dunno, something else?


 
No idea but if people want to wear one fair enough. It's not really something I get (but I also think that wearing a red nose is too close to being a massive bell end).


----------



## Firky (Oct 8, 2012)

firky said:


> I also think that wearing a red nose is too close to being a massive bell end).


Exhibit A


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 8, 2012)

you bastard


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 8, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Traditionally pink ribbons are breast cancer awareness.


And funnily enough it is breast cancer awareness month as well.... I bet the family are well pissed off with this.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 8, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> Disgrace that that lad got banged up for his message. I've seen the message and it's in bad taste, but wtf!?
> 
> I'd like to post it up here so you can see, but I'm not even sure that's legal. What the fuck, Britain!?


 
Could you PM it? Would be extremely interested.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Oct 8, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> And funnily enough it is breast cancer awareness month as well.... I bet the family are well pissed off with this.


 
Doh, all these bad-taste postings. We'll all have take ourselves aside and give us a good talking to.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 8, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Could you PM it? Would be extremely interested.


 
I'll just post it.  If the mods think I should remove it then I will.



> So April Jones has Cerebral Palsy. I really feel for the poor bastard - If you're going to abduct a kid you at least want a working one.


 
So, definitely in poor taste.  Criminal and deserving of prison?  No chance!


----------



## Corax (Oct 8, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I'll just post it. If the mods think I should remove it then I will.
> 
> 
> 
> So, definitely in poor taste. Criminal and deserving of prison? No chance!


Was it *just* posted in a public space, or was it purposefully directed at someone close to the girl?

That would be the distinguishing factor for me, that would turn it from 'being a dick' to harassment/abuse/somethinglikethat.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 8, 2012)

Seen worse


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 8, 2012)

Corax said:


> Was it *just* posted in a public space, or was it purposefully directed at someone close to the girl?
> 
> That would be the distinguishing factor for me, that would turn it from 'being a dick' to harassment/abuse/somethinglikethat.


 
I _think_ it was posted on his Facebook wall.  So not directed at anyone close to the family unless he specifically befriended them (unlikely, I'd think).


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 8, 2012)

That someone can get locked up for that is absolutely fucking disgusting. It really doesn't matter if it's an offensive joke or not.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 8, 2012)

Where's the McCann reference though?


----------



## Corax (Oct 8, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Where's the McCann reference though?


It was spiked.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 8, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Where's the McCann reference though?


 
might have been this one, no idea if same guy

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/...member-wins-the-award-for-most-offensive-post


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 8, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> might have been this one, no idea if same guy
> 
> http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/...member-wins-the-award-for-most-offensive-post


Different name.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 8, 2012)

I suppose this feeling of anger and injustice, this sense that what is being done is not in my name, this is what you Spartists must suffer all the time. How tiring it must be.


----------



## crustychick (Oct 8, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I'll just post it. If the mods think I should remove it then I will.
> 
> 
> 
> So, definitely in poor taste. Criminal and deserving of prison? No chance!





Vintage Paw said:


> That someone can get locked up for that is absolutely fucking disgusting. It really doesn't matter if it's an offensive joke or not.





Maurice Picarda said:


> Where's the McCann reference though?


 
Apparently he said a lot more than just what Fez posted - there are some of them in this Guardian article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/08/april-jones-teenager-jailed-facebook and it says that he made further sexually explicit comments too. he seems like a total dick...


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 8, 2012)

crustychick said:


> Apparently he said a lot more than just what Fez posted - there are some of them in this Guardian article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/08/april-jones-teenager-jailed-facebook and it says that he made further sexually explicit comments too. he seems like a total dick...


 
Well, I'm seeing different reports everywhere. Slashdot has this as one of the comments, which is far worse than what I quoted.



> What's the difference between Mark Bridger and Santa Claus? Mark Bridger comes in April.


 
Still shouldn't be criminal, though.


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 8, 2012)

This is interesting from the Slashdot comments above:



> "That's apparently not what happened. This guy posted the joke on his own wall; someone else took a screen grab of it and posted it on the April Jones page."
> He didn't write that joke on the page for the victims. someone else did but with a screenshot of his personal page.
> Probably reposted to the page by an offense junkie who gets off on showing off things they think people should be offended by.


 
If that's true, then this is even worse.


----------



## Corax (Oct 8, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> This is interesting from the Slashdot comments above:
> 
> 
> 
> If that's true, then this is even worse.


If it's true, then it's the person who reposted it that should be up in court.  IMO etc.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 8, 2012)

Corax said:


> If it's true, then it's the person who reposted it that should be up in court. IMO etc.


 
Hardly. Widespread mocking, perhaps. Career-limiting publicity. But criminal proceedings? No.


----------



## Firky (Oct 8, 2012)

I don't agree with him being done but I can't really say I feel sorry for him.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 8, 2012)

firky said:


> I don't agree with him being done but I can't really say I feel sorry for him.



I do. A prison term is not exactly fun.


----------



## Corax (Oct 8, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Hardly. Widespread mocking, perhaps. Career-limiting publicity. But criminal proceedings? No.


By sending it directly to those involved, I think it steps over the line to become abusive (or something along those lines).  It's not unreasonable to assume that the April Jones facebook page will be read by those directly involved.  So the person who (re)posted it there is guilty of that IMO.

Equally, it's not unreasonable to assume that those directly involved *wouldn't* be reading his *own* facebook wall.  So if that's the only place he posted it, I'd see that as fuckwitted but not illegal.  Mob justice, not court.

I'm no lawyer though, so it's very much just me whittling on about what I 'reckon'.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Oct 8, 2012)

fwiw, the guy didn't send it to those involved. That was someone else that took a screendump from his facebook wall and posted it to one of the groups in order to inflame a situation.


----------



## Corax (Oct 8, 2012)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> fwiw, the guy didn't send it to those involved. That was someone else that took a screendump from his facebook wall and posted it to one of the groups in order to inflame a situation.


That's what we've just been discussing...


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 8, 2012)

I'm not convinced about the level of difference it makes. The issue is the enormous gulf between being menacing, intimidating, or persecutory, which is what the relevant legislation was designed to combat, and being offensive. Whether Woods emailed the joke to a few close friends, or posted it on Jones' facebook page, he caused nothing but offence.

If this is genuinely a correct interpretation of public morality - and I suppose that's all you can ask for from the law - then we lose any right to mock when bearded theocrats have tantrums because their silly little book is treated with disrespect. We are morally equivalent to mobs who burn cinemas because they disapprove of YouTube films. Outrage, indignation and upset feelings are assumed to demand restitution, and the difference is only a very slight one, of degree.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Oct 8, 2012)

Lenny Henry got in the way and i missed the bit where someone clarified that


----------



## Corax (Oct 8, 2012)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> Lenny Henry got in the way and i missed the bit where someone clarified that


He was really rude to me once, and Dawn French apologised for him.

Great story eh?


----------



## Firky (Oct 8, 2012)

scifisam said:


> I do. A prison term is not exactly fun.


 
I was thinking along the lines of he's better off in clink than in his own house, surrounded by people with burning pitch forks.


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 8, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> you bastard


Haha that really made me giggle


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 8, 2012)

Its the same on twitter. How is RTing it going to help??? All this


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 8, 2012)

I hope they're going to bang up Frankie Boyle as well now


----------



## ChrissyJones (Oct 8, 2012)

friedaweed said:


> I hope they're going to bang up Frankie Boyle as well now


Excellent point. His jokes are totally disgusting!!


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 8, 2012)

((((Voltaire))))


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 8, 2012)

friedaweed said:


> I hope they're going to bang up Frankie Boyle as well now


 
That might be the kind of thing that needs to happen to take this silly law down.  If someone reports him for one of his tweets, don't the police have to investigate it?  I remember that from the John Terry thread as the off-duty copper watching it on telly was the one who started the police action against him.

I'm sure Frankie Boyle getting done for his 'jokes' would have the public up in arms enough; he's somehow the most popular comedian around


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 8, 2012)

firky said:


> I was thinking along the lines of he's better off in clink than in his own house, surrounded by people with burning pitch forks.


 
He's going to get bullied to fuck in prison though.


----------



## Firky (Oct 8, 2012)

Devil and the deep blue sea.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 8, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> He's going to get bullied to fuck in prison though.



Yup, and no chance of a job for years, then a huge gap in employment history so maybe no job ever. Basically his life is over for a joke.


----------



## Firky (Oct 8, 2012)

scifisam said:


> Yup, and no chance of a job for years, then a huge gap in employment history so maybe no job ever. Basically his life is over for a joke.


 
That's the worst part, I wouldn't go insofar as to say his life is over but it has made it much more difficult. He's still a young lad and huge gaps in employment history are sadly more and more common.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 8, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> Excellent point. His jokes are totally disgusting!!


They might be but he ain't been arrested for them has he?
I think *we're* all on dodgy ground if they start locking people up for posting shite on the internet. What next? Jailed for talking shite when your pissed? Surely the banning of alcohol would be a better approach than making examples of people it has the most entertaining effect on.

Then again I suppose we need more cheap labour during a recession and there's nowt like prison labour for getting a job done on the cheap 

Maybe they should just ban teh interwubz??


----------



## weltweit (Oct 8, 2012)

So, it is wrong, it could affect people on Urban, is anyone going to do anything about it?


----------



## Firky (Oct 8, 2012)

weltweit said:


> So, it is wrong, it could affect people on Urban, is anyone going to do anything about it?


 
About what?


----------



## weltweit (Oct 8, 2012)

firky said:


> About what?


About the law that locked this guy up for a joke in bad taste.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2012)

firky said:


> I was thinking along the lines of he's better off in clink than in his own house, surrounded by people with burning pitch forks.


A pitch fork would be as useful as a square wheel on a car


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## Citizen66 (Oct 8, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> There's a consequence for freedom of speech.


 
Yes, we have to put up with all manner of people pissing and moaning on the internet.


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## Jon-of-arc (Oct 8, 2012)

The thing that worries me most about these people getting done for offensive jokes is the total subjectivity of what is offensive to any given individual. Ok, so the april ones are pretty bad, but the muslim lad who got done for saying squaddies will go to hell? Arguably a political or religious point. Plenty of right wing shit on the net which I feel is pretty offensive, but I suppose is just some twats opinion. Who gets to draw the line? 

Also, I assume that saying these things off the net is "ok", legally. No specific equivalent law, to my knowledge. Strange and unfair double standard.

Honestly one of the most worrying laws of recent time. If I could think of a sensible way to campaign against it, I would. I know we dont have "freedom of speech" in this country, but whilst laws curtailing it were selectively enforced it was easy to pretend. This goes horribly the other way.


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## Ranbay (Oct 8, 2012)

It all started when that guy said he was going to blow up the airport.


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## Jon-of-arc (Oct 8, 2012)

What would the yanks say about such a law in their country? Theyd go fucking mental, pointing out their constitution etc. why do we not have such a freedom?  Fucking shit state of affairs.


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## where to (Oct 8, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:
			
		

> It all started when that guy said he was going to blow up the airport.



What is Fry saying this time I wonder.


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 8, 2012)

friedaweed said:


> They might be but he ain't been arrested for them has he?
> I think *we're* all on dodgy ground if they start locking people up for posting shite on the internet. What next? Jailed for talking shite when your pissed? Surely the banning of alcohol would be a better approach than making examples of people it has the most entertaining effect on.
> 
> Then again I suppose we need more cheap labour during a recession and there's nowt like prison labour for getting a job done on the cheap
> ...



I agrer with your argument. If that boy got sent down for a joke.... Frank Boyle should be on a life sentence.


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## weltweit (Oct 9, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> I agrer with your argument. If that boy got sent down for a joke.... Frank Boyle should be on a life sentence.


I have just been reading about this on the BBC Website
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-19869710
Apparently 50 people went to the lad's house, I don't think they went there to blow him kisses !!


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## Ranbay (Oct 9, 2012)




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## Firky (Oct 9, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> I agrer with your argument. If that boy got sent down for a joke.... Frank Boyle should be on a life sentence.


 
He's great, I like him - most of the time.


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 9, 2012)

weltweit said:


> I have just been reading about this on the BBC Website
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-19869710
> Apparently 50 people went to the lad's house, I don't think they went there to blow him kisses !!



Oh dear. Surely that was enough of a lesson learnt?


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 9, 2012)

firky said:


> He's great, I like him - most of the time.



Hmmm ok he has some uses

Still a prick


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 9, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> Oh dear. Surely that was enough of a lesson learnt?


He wasn't there.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 9, 2012)

where to said:


> What is Fry saying this time I wonder.


 
That was exactly my point earlier. Celebs were all over the shop getting us to 'support Paul Chambers' and everyone had little things in the twitter avatars that said stuff like "this is a joke" or whatever. But that was a nice, safe case, wasn't it? A nice, inoffensive, middle class (I think) tweeter said something that got reported, and everyone flocked to defend the right to free speech, talking about how it'd be so damn terrible for all of us if this sort of thing wasn't allowed. But now, a couple of cases where the people concerned aren't quite so media-friendly, aren't probably the kind of people glinner and fry would be happy standing next to in a photo holding a banner defending the right to say what you want ... and what? Fucking dicks, that's what.


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## Stanley Edwards (Oct 9, 2012)

Things you should and shouldn't say.

It is complicated in the New World of self-publishing, multi-narrowcast, internet babble.

Previously, publishers and broadcasters were regulated by governments and self-regulated by self-regulatory bodies. More people now read, and believe what is on the internet. Most of us now distrust the mainstream media and look to the internet for the 'truth'. More fool us.

Only human nature to try and make light out of the darkest situation. No way should this lad have been sentenced. Daily Mail staff have done far worse in the past. They will do in the future. Inciting racial hatred, paranoia, distrust of neighbours...

Where is the World going? The internet seems to be becomming a bigger threat by the day to those who wish to control what we think. We need to respect that. And, we need to abuse it.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 9, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> That was exactly my point earlier. Celebs were all over the shop getting us to 'support Paul Chambers' and everyone had little things in the twitter avatars that said stuff like "this is a joke" or whatever. But that was a nice, safe case, wasn't it? A nice, inoffensive, middle class (I think) tweeter said something that got reported, and everyone flocked to defend the right to free speech, talking about how it'd be so damn terrible for all of us if this sort of thing wasn't allowed. But now, a couple of cases where the people concerned aren't quite so media-friendly, aren't probably the kind of people glinner and fry would be happy standing next to in a photo holding a banner defending the right to say what you want ... and what? Fucking dicks, that's what.


 
Matthew Woods pleaded guilty - to what, I have no fucking clue. Not sure what can be done immediately to help him, much less relying on celebs. But yes, it's not so media friendly. The same legal crew who helped out Chambers seem to be rumbling, so I guess we'll see, because that part of the 2003? Communications act is not fit.

This is one thing that the Americans got right 200-odd years ago. Free speech, whether you agree or not.


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## goldenecitrone (Oct 9, 2012)

scifisam said:


> Yup, and no chance of a job for years, then a huge gap in employment history so maybe no job ever. Basically his life is over for a joke.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 9, 2012)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Matthew Woods pleaded guilty - to what, I have no fucking clue. Not sure what can be done immediately to help him, much less relying on celebs. But yes, it's not so media friendly. The same legal crew who helped out Chambers seem to be rumbling, so I guess we'll see, because that part of the 2003? Communications act is not fit.
> 
> This is one thing that the Americans got right 200-odd years ago. Free speech, whether you agree or not.


 
They are? (The legal team, I mean.) Well, tentatively that is good news. Because it needs them to be challenging this sort of case, high profile and unseemly as it is, for the law really to be tested and hopefully done away with.


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 9, 2012)

I think this has alot to do with sending a message to the public. Its time to take responsibilty for how you behave online. He has been made an example of.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 9, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> They are? (The legal team, I mean.)


 
The Index on Censorship crew are anyway, but I suppose the guilty plea makes any kind of action in this case moot, sadly.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 9, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Ok, so the april ones are pretty bad, but the muslim lad who got done for saying squaddies will go to hell? Arguably a political or religious point.


 
I have a muslim friend who despite being nice enough still thinks I, and my wife and children will all go to burn hell. Should she get banged up? It's just what she believes religiously. Technically my family will all burn in hell for all eternity form a christian standpoint too.


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## weltweit (Oct 9, 2012)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I have a muslim friend who despite being nice enough still thinks I, and my wife and children will all go to burn hell. Should she get banged up? It's just what she believes religiously. Technically my family will all burn in hell for all eternity form a christian standpoint too.


 
Both he, and the church, I don't hold out much hope for you Atomic Suplex!!


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 9, 2012)

ChrissyJones said:


> I think this has alot to do with sending a message to the public. Its time to take responsibilty for how you behave online. He has been made an example of.


 
"Examples" rarely work (think of the death penalty as a 'deterrent' - it doesn't work). And in the meantime, we get a very nasty precedent set whereby it's now acceptable to lock someone up if they happen to say something in a public forum that someone else is upset by. Think about how that might be abused.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 9, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Both he, and the church, I don't hold out much hope for you Atomic Suplex!!


Well 'she' actually.
All I am saying is that every religion seems to think that people who simply don't believe in their religion will burn for all eternity. One kid mentioning something like that on twitter is a banging up offense? Could you get a sentence for quoting a bit of the bible on facebook? The bible has been out there for quote a long time. I know people who quite the burning in hell lines on the street out of loud speakers.


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## weltweit (Oct 9, 2012)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Well 'she' actually.
> All I am saying is that every religion seems to think that people who simply don't believe in their religion will burn for all eternity. One kid mentioning something like that on twitter is a banging up offense? Could you get a sentence for quoting a bit of the bible on facebook? The bible has been out there for quite a long time. I know people who quite the burning in hell lines on the street out of loud speakers.


 
Now that would be interesting, could someone get arrested and charged under the communications act by quoting from the bible!! ?? that would be great


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## frogwoman (Oct 9, 2012)

that muslim guy is plainly a cock but I don't see why what he said should be a crime. It's a bit worrying if you ask me.


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## two sheds (Oct 9, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Now that would be interesting, could someone get arrested and charged under the communications act by quoting from the bible!! ?? that would be great


 
Surely there must be people in the UK who will speak out in favour of biblical commands like killing disobedient children http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/10/08/arkansas-republican-endorses-death-penalty-for-children/

Mind you, you'd imagine anyone calling for death to muslims would qualify. First thoughts would be BNP type forums but fuck it a lot of the comments on Daily Mail sites on a good day (well I assume anyway - not that I've ever read comments on Daily Mail articles oh no).


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## frogwoman (Oct 9, 2012)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Well 'she' actually.
> All I am saying is that every religion seems to think that people who simply don't believe in their religion will burn for all eternity. One kid mentioning something like that on twitter is a banging up offense? Could you get a sentence for quoting a bit of the bible on facebook? The bible has been out there for quite a long time. I know people who quite the burning in hell lines on the street out of loud speakers.


 
i came across an anti-semitic street preacher the other day, but should he go to prison for saying stuff to people in the street about the jews killing christ? should he fuck, if you put somebody like that in jail it's not going to stop them thinking what they think, and it's not going to stop them saying it, it's just going to make it worse and they'll feel like they're a martyr for whatever views they hold. to be honest, if somebody like that was in jail i would think what an absolute waste of time.


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## gabi (Oct 9, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> Phew, and I thought I was the only one. Let's form a network - out little secret, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> Phwoooarrr, reaches for Kleenex.


 


> There were angry scenes outside the court in Aberystwyth as the 46-year-old former lifeguard arrived. Around 30 members of the public, who had *waited patiently in the morning drizzle*, shouted abuse and banged on the prison van he was travelling in. One man, who had travelled from Birmingham, threw a plastic bottle at the van.


 
lulz. i think we need a van-banging thread at least. i was hanging out for the nonce-eastbourne-music teacher van-bang but this one seems to have superceded it. is that guy even back in the country yet? where the fuck's his van.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 9, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> i came across an anti-semitic street preacher the other day, but should he go to prison for saying stuff to people in the street about the jews killing christ? should he fuck, if you put somebody like that in jail it's not going to stop them thinking what they think, and it's not going to stop them saying it, it's just going to make it worse and they'll feel like they're a martyr for whatever views they hold. to be honest, if somebody like that was in jail i would think what an absolute waste of time.


 
Just to be clear, I agree.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 9, 2012)

The ironic thing is that loads of people on twitter were calling for Mathew Woods (who made the April 'jokes') to have "his dick cut off" and be "killed" which I reckon is pretty offensive as well.

12 weeks in jail? Madness. That's the maximum sentence allowed. All to please the Daily Fail and the Scum. So much for consistency in the law.


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## ChrissyJones (Oct 9, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> "Examples" rarely work (think of the death penalty as a 'deterrent' - it doesn't work). And in the meantime, we get a very nasty precedent set whereby it's now acceptable to lock someone up if they happen to say something in a public forum that someone else is upset by. Think about how that might be abused.


Not disagreeing with you. Just trying to explain where the courts are going with this.


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## gosub (Oct 12, 2012)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Matthew Woods pleaded guilty - to what, I have no fucking clue. Not sure what can be done immediately to help him, much less relying on celebs. But yes, it's not so media friendly. The same legal crew who helped out Chambers seem to be rumbling, so I guess we'll see, because that part of the 2003? Communications act is not fit.
> 
> This is one thing that the Americans got right 200-odd years ago. Free speech, whether you agree or not.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/12/matthew-woods-support-paul-chambers
Voltaire wouldn't recognise this country.



what i don't get now, is if this is doable under 2003 Communication Act, then why aren't the online editions of papers also under ofcoms umbrella?


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 12, 2012)

Glad that article was written. There needs to be a push back against this, enough 'important' people questioning it is, sadly, often what it takes to give something traction. He's pleaded guilty, so I suppose that means he can't appeal. But what I want to know is where were the outpourings of rich celebrities donating their own money to secure him counsel for his defence or appeal (as I believe happened with Chambers). Two faced cunts.


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## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The ironic thing is that loads of people on twitter were calling for Mathew Woods (who made the April 'jokes') to have "his dick cut off" and be "killed" which I reckon is pretty offensive as well.


 
I suppose an absurd cycle could be started to demonstrate the point. Take a screenshot of the people posting about cutting his dick off, and post it to his mums facebook wall. Rinse and repeat.


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## gosub (Oct 13, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Glad that article was written. There needs to be a push back against this, enough 'important' people questioning it is, sadly, often what it takes to give something traction. He's pleaded guilty, so I suppose that means he can't appeal. But what I want to know is where were the outpourings of rich celebrities donating their own money to secure him counsel for his defence or appeal (as I believe happened with Chambers). Two faced cunts.


I really hope this deserves a thread of its own. How is Facebook covered and not the online content of the sun, the mail or even urban?


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## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> I'll just post it. If the mods think I should remove it then I will.
> 
> 
> 
> So, definitely in poor taste. Criminal and deserving of prison? No chance!


Because cerebal palsy is a disability, hypothetically speaking the hate crime laws might apply, which elevates it above the usual bad taste 'hide and seek' jokes.


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## gosub (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Because cerebal palsy is a disability, hypothetically speaking the hate crime laws might apply, which elevates it above the usual bad taste 'hide and seek' jokes.


Not seen posts of his that make specific reference to her death and her disease, if anything the fuckwitted insensitive cunt was more concerned with her hair colour. 
Turning this through 180degrees why didn't you Jan Moirs Stephen Gately comments get done this way? 

Hope the post Leveson review covers shit like this


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## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

gosub said:


> Not seen posts of his that make specific reference to her death and her disease, if anything the fuckwitted insensitive cunt was more concerned with her hair colour.
> Turning this through 180degrees why didn't you Jan Moirs Stephen Gately comments get done this way?
> 
> Hope the post Leveson review covers shit like this


I wasn't having a go at Fez, he was asking why the joke could perceived as worse than most bad taste jokes, and I offered an opinion on it, given that the joke itself made reference to April's CP.


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## Jon-of-arc (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I wasn't having a go at Fez, he was asking why the joke could perceived as worse than most bad taste jokes, and I offered an opinion on it, given that the joke itself made reference to April's CP.



Not disagreeing with your wider point, but if this was a hate crime, surely it should be prosecuted as such?


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## gosub (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I wasn't having a go at Fez, he was asking why the joke could perceived as worse than most bad taste jokes, and I offered an opinion on it, given that the joke itself made reference to April's CP.


Wasn't saying anything re Fez was about my understanding of what the nicked bloke had written


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 14, 2012)

Doesn't 'hate crime' imply there was an intent to harm that specific person because of their disability/gender/orientation/ethnicity/whatever? Making a joke about a girl who someone else allegedly abducted and killed isn't an intent to harm her himself, nor is it inciting anyone else to harm her. I'll admit I don't know very much about the specific laws involved, though.


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## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Did anyone read the 'hypothetically' in my post? It was a suggestion as to why this chap MIGHT have gotten a harsher sentence, not as an actual reason why he did.

And I have no idea what this means:


gosub said:


> <snip>
> Turning this through 180degrees *why didn't you Jan Moirs Stephen Gately comments* get done this way?
> 
> Hope the post Leveson review covers shit like this


I don't remember making any comments about Stephen Gately or Jan Moirs


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## gosub (Oct 14, 2012)

K





equationgirl said:


> Did anyone read the 'hypothetically' in my post? It was a suggestion as to why this chap MIGHT have gotten a harsher sentence, not as an actual reason why he did.
> 
> And I have no idea what this means:
> 
> I don't remember making any comments about Stephen Gately or Jan Moirs


You didn't, but I made the link. Can remember the Jan Moirs thing mushrooming out of here all the way til Dave Gorman suggested written media come under Ofcom. Then it was all freedom of speech and the man in the pub. Well the man in the pub doing Facebook on his phone appears to come under OFCOM....why do newspapers consider their online publications as legally distinct from other online sites?


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 14, 2012)

I don't think anyone's having a go at you, equationgirl. You brought up a point (hypothetically) and people are just exploring what that means, or could mean.


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## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

gosub said:


> You didn't, but I made the link. Can remember the Jan Moirs thing mushrooming out of here all the way til Dave Gorman suggested written media come under Ofcom. Then it was all freedom of speech and the man in the pub. Well the man in the pub doing Facebook on his phone appears to come under OFCOM....


Sorry, the way your post was written it sounded as if you were aiming it at comments I had previously written (which I hadn't).

Freedom of speech is vital. But people (those generally not on urban, it seems) need to realise that freedom of speech means hearing things and seeing things you might not like or agree with.

At the moment it seems like we're heading down a path to state-sanctioned opinions. That's not good.


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## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> I don't think anyone's having a go at you, equationgirl. You brought up a point (hypothetically) and people are just exploring what that means, or could mean.


Yes, sorry, might be a smidge touchy today, I'm in a lot of pain and on a lot of pain meds, therefore my fuse is quite short and I'm easily confused. I'm sorry.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, sorry, might be a smidge touchy today, I'm in a lot of pain and on a lot of pain meds, therefore my fuse is quite short and I'm easily confused. I'm sorry.


 
Don't apologise, everyone's a bit 'fighty' at times. Sorry you're feeling crappy today


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## gosub (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Sorry, the way your post was written it sounded as if you were aiming it at comments I had previously written (which I hadn't).
> 
> Freedom of speech is vital. But people (those generally not on urban, it seems) need to realise that freedom of speech means hearing things and seeing things you might not like or agree with.
> 
> At the moment it seems like we're heading down a path to state-sanctioned opinions. That's not good.


No it sounds like we are already there whilst everybody looks at the Leveson shadow theatre


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Sorry, the way your post was written it sounded as if you were aiming it at comments I had previously written (which I hadn't).
> 
> Freedom of speech is vital. But people (those generally not on urban, it seems) need to realise that freedom of speech means hearing things and seeing things you might not like or agree with.
> 
> At the moment it seems like we're heading down a path to state-sanctioned opinions. That's not good.


 
I agree. I recognise it's a really tough line to walk, because when you look to somewhere like America with the freedom of speech enshrined in the constitution, it gets used as justification for all manner of vileness and gets twisted and abused horrifically (by people in positions of power). At the same time, the direction we seem to be moving in at the moment could equally be used by those in positions of power to ensure they control 'the message' (even more than already) and has very dangerous implications.

I don't necessarily agree with legislation being the answer to people being cunts, and I also don't necessarily agree with the vilest of individuals and groups being able to hide behind free speech laws in order to discriminate/cause harm. Finding a balance, and how to address that as a society (and not only through the law), is a herculean task, but it's one that I don't think simply saying "free speech is sacrosanct" goes far enough in helping solve. I certainly do not have the answer, and wouldn't know where to begin.

What it's clear we _do_ need, however, is a society and system that is able to organise itself around the idea of _context_, because right now the way we legislate tends to paint with a broad brush, and while the details of cases are meant to be dealt with individually in the courts, the way we legislate still means that broad brush approach is applied anyway. Often times, though, the idea of context is lost not only in terms of how the state deals with this sort of thing, but also in how we debate it as well.


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## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> I agree. I recognise it's a really tough line to walk, because when you look to somewhere like America with the freedom of speech enshrined in the constitution, it gets used as justification for all manner of vileness and gets twisted and abused horrifically (by people in positions of power). At the same time, the direction we seem to be moving in at the moment could equally be used by those in positions of power to ensure they control 'the message' (even more than already) and has very dangerous implications.
> 
> I don't necessarily agree with legislation being the answer to people being cunts, and I also don't necessarily agree with the vilest of individuals and groups being able to hide behind free speech laws in order to discriminate/cause harm. Finding a balance, and how to address that as a society (and not only through the law), is a herculean task, but it's one that I don't think simply saying "free speech is sacrosanct" goes far enough in helping solve. I certainly do not have the answer, and wouldn't know where to begin.
> 
> What it's clear we _do_ need, however, is a society and system that is able to organise itself around the idea of _context_, because right now the way we legislate tends to paint with a broad brush, and while the details of cases are meant to be dealt with individually in the courts, the way we legislate still means that broad brush approach is applied anyway. Often times, though, the idea of context is lost not only in terms of how the state deals with this sort of thing, but also in how we debate it as well.


I see a lot that is both good and bad about the way America deals with this issue. I think their freedom of speech attitudes allows more opinions to be spouted that are twisted and vile and in the name of God, for example, the protests outside women's health clinics about abortion. I would hate to see that spreading here on a wider basis. 

There does need to be more about context, and I think that's the bit that's difficult to legislate because context is always changing and evolving. Any legal framework will struggle to manage that.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I see a lot that is both good and bad about the way America deals with this issue. I think their freedom of speech attitudes allows more opinions to be spouted that are twisted and vile and in the name of God, for example, the protests outside women's health clinics about abortion. I would hate to see that spreading here on a wider basis.
> 
> There does need to be more about context, and I think that's the bit that's difficult to legislate because context is always changing and evolving. Any legal framework will struggle to manage that.


 
Well see that's a great example. Those of us who vehemently defend the right of people to say offensive things online (like this guy in this case), what lengths would we be prepared to see gone to in order to protect the women who have to fight through crowds outside abortion clinics? I guess that's where context does come into it. And I don't think we have a mature (in outlook, not in age) enough legal system that can handle those differences currently.


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## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> Well see that's a great example. Those of us who vehemently defend the right of people to say offensive things online (like this guy in this case), what lengths would we be prepared to see gone to in order to protect the women who have to fight through crowds outside abortion clinics? I guess that's where context does come into it. And I don't think we have a mature (in outlook, not in age) enough legal system that can handle those differences currently.


Yes, I don't the legal system could manage. And that was one example. What about the Occupy movement, where protesters were rounded up and arrested? How would the framework manage two differing cases?


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## Ranbay (Oct 15, 2012)




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## weltweit (Oct 15, 2012)

Parents at a Swansea school not permitted to watch their kids play football because of concerns raised by the April Jones case.
http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/A...-grounds-ban/story-17084542-detail/story.html


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 15, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Parents at a Swansea school not permitted to watch their kids play football because of concerns raised by the April Jones case.
> http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/A...-grounds-ban/story-17084542-detail/story.html


 
Seems to be a bit of confusion there. It may have been an over-zealous teacher rather than school policy. Fucking ridiculous though.

I know a guy who was confronted by someone in a park (a few years ago now) who told him they were going to call the police because he was taking photographs of his own daughter.


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## weltweit (Oct 15, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> ... I know a guy who was confronted by someone in a park (a few years ago now) who told him they were going to call the police because he was taking photographs of his own daughter.


I am a photographer. I am very wary of pointing my camera at kids who are not my own. I suppose the concerned person did not know the girl was his daughter.


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## Corax (Oct 15, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Parents at a Swansea school not permitted to watch their kids play football because of concerns raised by the April Jones case.
> http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/A...-grounds-ban/story-17084542-detail/story.html


They should organise a campaign meeting with Terry Christian as keynote speaker.


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## Frances Lengel (Oct 15, 2012)

This probably isn't the thread for it, but I'd love for one of those wankers you see round town taking pictures of people for their flickr or whatever shit it is without asking permission first to get strung up as a paedo.


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## a_chap (Oct 15, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> This probably isn't the thread for it, but I'd love for one of those wankers you see round town taking pictures of people for their flickr or whatever shit it is without asking permission first to get strung up as a paedo.


 
Twat


----------



## Dandred (Oct 21, 2012)

Some people in Mach are getting pink ribbon tattoos...


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## Ranu (Jan 14, 2013)

Mark Bridger denies murder, kidnap and perverting the course of justice but admits he was probably responsible for April Jones's death.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-21009177

Trial due to start February 25th.


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## Barking_Mad (Jan 14, 2013)

Ranu said:


> Mark Bridger denies murder, kidnap and perverting the course of justice but admits he was probably responsible for April Jones's death.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-21009177
> 
> Trial due to start February 25th.



How's that work then?


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jan 14, 2013)

Barking_Mad said:


> How's that work then?


Feels like there's a lot that will come out once the verdict is out and reporting restrictions are lifted. None of it makes much sense at the moment.


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## existentialist (Jan 14, 2013)

Barking_Mad said:


> How's that work then?


Probably not the kind of conversation to be having prior to the trial...but it's probably not a surprising admission if the evidence has him bang to rights.


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## geminisnake (Jan 14, 2013)

Ranu said:


> Mark Bridger denies murder, kidnap and perverting the course of justice but admits he was probably responsible for April Jones's death.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-21009177
> 
> Trial due to start February 25th.


 
It doesn't say that. It says The man accused of murdering missing five-year-old April Jones is expected to say he was probably responsible for her death but he did not murder her, a court has been told by his barrister.

WTF? then it changes down the page


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## mack (Jan 14, 2013)

I'm guessing he took the girl somewhere and she had a fall or something then he hid the body.


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## SaskiaJayne (Jan 14, 2013)

mack said:


> I'm guessing he took the girl somewhere and she had a fall or something then he hid the body.


The Ian Huntley defence.


----------



## mack (Jan 14, 2013)

SaskiaJayne said:


> The Ian Huntley defence.


 
Aye Indeed.


----------



## miss direct (Jan 14, 2013)

Any idea why media coverage is restricted?


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 14, 2013)

mack said:


> I'm guessing he took the girl somewhere and she had a fall or something then he hid the body.


 
Denial of murder could also mean he's going for a diminished responsibility defence, unfortunately, and who's to say different without a body?


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## existentialist (Jan 14, 2013)

miss direct said:


> Any idea why media coverage is restricted?


I'd just assumed it was to preserve the possibility of a fair trial. In a case like this, with so much attention focused on the initial crime, I'd imagine that the defence team will be falling over themselves to find any reason why they can claim that it's not going to be possible to get a fair trial for Bridger.

But maybe there's more to it than that.


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## DJ Squelch (Jan 14, 2013)

this trial seems to be happening very promptly after the arrest , a murder trial usually takes about a year to come to court, the Tia Sharp case hasn't gone to court yet and that was before April Jones. I wonder if they've pushed it through early in the hope that a verdict might help them find the body ie encourage some kind of confession.


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## weltweit (Jan 14, 2013)

It seems a very strange thing to say - not guilty but probably responsible - I forget the exact words. Is it a special legal position? If he was going for diminished responsibility why not just say it directly?


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## miss direct (Jan 14, 2013)

I think there may be more to it, because there have been other high profile trials (the murder of Jo Yeates being one that comes to mind) where there weren't restrictions.


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## weltweit (Jan 14, 2013)

He denies abducting and murdering her.
Yet his lawyer says he will say he was "probably responsible for April's death."


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## Quartz (Jan 14, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Yet his lawyer says he will say he was "probably responsible for April's death."


 
Perhaps he's been pressured into saying it by the police? It wouldn't be the first time the police have forced a false confession.


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## miss direct (Jan 14, 2013)

Ah I see, this isn't actually the trial, the trial will start in February. They don't want to prejudice the jury I expect.


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## likesfish (Jan 15, 2013)

Think the defence is going to be he took her to the woods  and she wandered off and "accidently" fell in the river and  drowned
Huntley tried something similar. Lawyers got to earn there pay.


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## mauvais (Jan 15, 2013)

[nonsense, whoops]


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## mack (Jan 15, 2013)

mauvais said:


> [nonsense, whoops]


 






 ?


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## weltweit (May 1, 2013)

Mark Bridger is in court now. Accused of the murder of April Jones whose body was never found.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22353735
April Jones murder: 'Bone found' at Mark Bridger's home


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## DexterTCN (May 1, 2013)

Are we allowed to talk about this?*   I think the evidence is pretty obvious...he k*******d her, ****d her, ch****d her up, set **** to the remains then ****ed them someplace.

He pled guilty to killing her but can't remember the details.....fuck off.

*mods delete if not appropriate


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## weltweit (May 1, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> ....
> He pled guilty to killing her but can't remember the details.....fuck off.


 
"Mark Bridger, 47, of nearby Ceinws, denies abducting and murdering April."


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## DexterTCN (May 1, 2013)

weltweit said:


> "Mark Bridger, 47, of nearby Ceinws, denies abducting and murdering April."


He doesn't deny killing her.


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## butchersapron (May 1, 2013)

weltweit said:


> "Mark Bridger, 47, of nearby Ceinws, denies abducting and murdering April."


He still plead guilty. He's offering the defence that it wasn't a nonce job. I doubt he'll last the trial that way.


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## treelover (May 1, 2013)

Really feel for all in the town, especially the family, it will never never be the same...


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## Quartz (May 1, 2013)

I've heard on the BBC that they found bits of her skull.    How could anyone do such a thing?

I'll be giving my niece and nephew extra hugs the next time I see them.


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## Nylock (May 1, 2013)

bits... that's just....


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## Quartz (May 30, 2013)

Guilty.


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## shagnasty (May 30, 2013)

A whole life tarrif i don' think he is safe to go back into society


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## 8den (May 30, 2013)

Can we have harsher sentences for people who come up with bullshit not guilty defences?

Like the guy who claimed he didn't rape and murder a woman, he found her body and had sex with it?

Or the bloke who claimed the woman he murdered committed suicide by stabbing herself 17 times?


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## ElizabethofYork (May 30, 2013)

8den said:


> Can we have harsher sentences for people who come up with bullshit not guilty defences?
> 
> Like the guy who claimed he didn't rape and murder a woman, he found her body and had sex with it?
> 
> Or the bloke who claimed the woman he murdered committed suicide by stabbing herself 17 times?


 
How can you have a harsher sentence than a "whole of life" tarriff?


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## xslavearcx (May 30, 2013)

ElizabethofYork said:


> How can you have a harsher sentence than a "whole of life" tarriff?


 
If this was a more right wing forum i'm sure there would arise plenty of graphic descriptions of possible harsher sentences forthcoming...


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## ElizabethofYork (May 30, 2013)

xslavearcx said:


> If this was a more right wing forum i'm sure there would arise plenty of graphic descriptions of possible harsher sentences forthcoming...


 
Quite.  I've just been reading the Mail Online (yuk) and everyone's tripping over each other to come up with the most gruesome punishments.


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## 8den (May 30, 2013)

ElizabethofYork said:


> How can you have a harsher sentence than a "whole of life" tarriff?


 
Whole life tariff and your only entertainment is the Jeremy Kyle show.


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## ElizabethofYork (May 30, 2013)

8den said:


> Whole life tariff and your only entertainment is the Jeremy Kyle show.


 
Bloody hell!  That's going too far.


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## 8den (May 30, 2013)

He claimed he accidentally killed the girl and claims he forgot where he put the body.

Fuck the cunt.


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## brogdale (May 30, 2013)

I'd imagine that there would be harsher punishment awaiting if he ever strayed from the confines of the VP wing.


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## goldenecitrone (May 30, 2013)

8den said:


> He claimed he accidentally killed the girl and claims he forgot where he put the body.
> 
> Fuck the cunt.


 

Heard on the radio that he confessed to the prison priest that he'd dumped her body in a river. Couldn't be used in court though.


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## Teaboy (May 30, 2013)

8den said:


> He claimed he accidentally killed the girl and claims he forgot where he put the body.
> 
> Fuck the cunt.


 
Any murder of a child (or murder full stop for that matter) is horrific but there is something about this case which is particularly disturbing, maybe its the insultingly bad defence or most likely the fact that he clearly thought he'd be fine if he incinerated the body.  How terrible for the parents to know they will never even get to bury their child.

A devious liar right until the end, I'm glad the jury saw through his lies and I hope he rots.


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## Teaboy (May 30, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Heard on the radio that he confessed to the prison priest that he'd dumped her body in a river. Couldn't be used in court though.


 
Probably another lie.

Wasn't it the largest search ever by the police service?  If it was as simple as in the river they would have found her.


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## goldenecitrone (May 30, 2013)

Teaboy said:


> Probably another lie.
> 
> Wasn't it the largest search ever by the police service? If it was as simple as in the river they would have found her.


 

Not been following the story, but having just read the BBC article about fragments of skull found in his wood burner, then it's almost definitely another lie.


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## 8den (May 30, 2013)

The river is plausible as it was swollen above it's usual level.

But he was apparently a seasoned outdoorsman and had worked in arbitrator. It doesn't bear thinking about what he could have done to the body.


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## goldenecitrone (May 30, 2013)

8den said:


> But he was apparently a seasoned outdoorsman and had worked in arbitrator. It doesn't bear thinking about what he could have done to the body.


 

Imagine what hellish thoughts the poor parents must be having. Fucking horrible.


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## Part 2 (May 30, 2013)

How many 'full lifers' do we have nowadays?

I remember seeing an article maybe 12/15 years ago where there were very few people who were told they would never get out, Sutcliffe, Brady, Bamber are the ones I recall.

Am I wrong in thinking there are more of these type of sentences being handed out?


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## Teaboy (May 30, 2013)

Chip Barm said:


> How many 'full lifers' do we have nowadays?
> 
> I remember seeing an article maybe 12/15 years ago where there were very few people who were told they would never get out, Sutcliffe, Brady, Bamber are the ones I recall.
> 
> Am I wrong in thinking there are more of these type of sentences being handed out?


 
Apparently only the 37th person to receive this.  I suppose this reflects his deviousness and his desire to lie about everything, clearly the judge believes he will remain a threat for the rest of his life.


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## weltweit (May 30, 2013)

8den said:


> .. But he was apparently a seasoned outdoorsman and had worked in arbitrator. It doesn't bear thinking about what he could have done to the body.


 
I know it is OT but surely an "arbitrator" is someone who arbitrates in a dispute. An abatoir worker on the other hand is a slaughterman.


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## Ms T (May 30, 2013)

8den said:


> Can we have harsher sentences for people who come up with bullshit not guilty defences?
> 
> Like the guy who claimed he didn't rape and murder a woman, he found her body and had sex with it?
> 
> Or the bloke who claimed the woman he murdered committed suicide by stabbing herself 17 times?


 
That's why there was no mitigation and he received a life tariff.


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## Streathamite (May 30, 2013)

Chip Barm said:


> How many 'full lifers' do we have nowadays?
> 
> I remember seeing an article maybe 12/15 years ago where there were very few people who were told they would never get out, Sutcliffe, Brady, Bamber are the ones I recall.
> 
> Am I wrong in thinking there are more of these type of sentences being handed out?


combining the total life tariffs set by past home secs and judges (the latter having the sole prerogative since 2004), I counted 50


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## treelover (May 30, 2013)

There is a small Latin American  Festival there in the summer, it will be a much more subdued affair I imagine.


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## Part 2 (May 30, 2013)

Streathamite said:


> combining the total life tariffs set by past home secs and judges (the latter having the sole preogative since 2004, I counted 50


 
It would appear to be something to do with judges sentencing rather than home secretaries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prisoners_with_whole-life_tariffs


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## treelover (May 30, 2013)

> *The murder of April Jones tested the strength of my community*
> 
> For everyone connected with Machynlleth, the experience has been shattering, but with Mark Bridger's conviction, the process of healing can begin
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/30/ukcrime-wales


 
Monbiot on the effects of the murder on his adopted town

btw, there is something magical about that part of the world, don't think it will ever be the same.


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## twentythreedom (May 30, 2013)

One thing that I noticed was the cold, dead look in Bridger's eyes in the pic the news and papers have been using. Horrible


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## treelover (May 30, 2013)

> I am one of the GPs in Machynlleth, and I have been caring for the community and many of the people affected by this horrific event. This has shaken the community to the core, and caused many people to experience significant psychiatric distress, with partially healing wounds re-opened at each stage of the search, trial and media interest. The harm to the collective health of my patients should not be underestimated.
> I too hope, with Mr Monbiot, that the community can find the strength and unity it did on those first dark days when it pulled together to search for April, and that the healing of the emotional and psychological scars for this town can now begin with the conclusion of the trial and conviction secured I have faith that they will.
> Dr Alan Woodall
> GP Machynlleth Medical Practice.


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## UrbaneFox (May 30, 2013)

twentythreedom said:


> One thing that I noticed was the cold, dead look in Bridger's eyes in the pic the news and papers have been using. Horrible


He has to switch off from acknowledging from the reality.


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## UrbaneFox (May 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> There is a small Latin American Festival there in the summer, it will be a much more subdued affair I imagine.


Urban75 must send a deputation.


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## thedockerslad (May 30, 2013)

Having visited and passed through the area my thoughts are with the family of April Jones and other working class families there.


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## billy_bob (May 30, 2013)

treelover said:


> btw, there is something magical about that part of the world, don't think it will ever be the same.


 
You're right, its hard to see how you can think of one without the other in future.  Like Saddleworth Moor.


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## kebabking (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Having visited and passed through the area my thoughts are with the family of April Jones and other working class families there.


 

absolutely, everyone knows that middle-class parents don't love their children as much. cock.


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## billy_bob (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Having visited and passed through the area my thoughts are with the family of April Jones and other working class families there.


 
I'm all for working class solidarity, but you might as well have said "and all the other white people there" for all the relevance its got in this context.


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## thedockerslad (May 30, 2013)

Well we'll see who leaves and who doesn't. Who can and who can't.


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## equationgirl (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Well we'll see who leaves and who doesn't. Who can and who can't.


 
What do you mean by that?


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## thedockerslad (May 30, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> What do you mean by that?


 
Are you fucking stupid?


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Are you fucking stupid?


 
I don't know what you mean either TBF.


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## equationgirl (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Are you fucking stupid?


 
No. I'd like you to explain what you meant please.


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## cesare (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Well we'll see who leaves and who doesn't. Who can and who can't.


Are you saying that working class people are trapped there with the associated memories of what happened to the child and their community?


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## ElizabethofYork (May 30, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> No. I'd like you to explain what you meant please.


 
Me too.


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## thedockerslad (May 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I don't know what you mean either TBF.


 
It doesn't matter. Time will tell if the middle class English move out of that 'magical' area of Wales or not.


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## goldenecitrone (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Are you fucking stupid?


 

Why would she want to sleep with you? Weirdo.


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## thedockerslad (May 30, 2013)

cesare said:


> Are you saying that working class people are trapped there with the associated memories of what happened to the child and their community?


 
Yes those in council housing on that council estate are. Unless you know otherwise


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## cesare (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Yes those in council housing on that council estate are. Unless you know otherwise


I don't know otherwise, no. I'm not familiar with the area at all, but I know that it's not that easy to move out of council housing on a council estate especially in more rural areas.


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## Frances Lengel (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Yes those in council housing on that council estate are. Unless you know otherwise


 
But how many of them want to move out on the back of what was, though an absolutely appalling crime, a one off isolated incident?


----------



## thedockerslad (May 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> But how many of them want to move out on the back of what was, though an absolutely appalling crime, a one off isolated incident?


 
The point is they can't afford to if they want to or not. Do you not see that?


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## equationgirl (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> It doesn't matter. Time will tell if the middle class English move out of that 'magical' area of Wales or not.


 
If it doesn't matter, why post it in the first place?


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> The point is they can't afford to if they want to or not. Do you not see that?


 
Yeah, but why not start a thread about people being trapped in "poverty pockets" or whatever people call them rather than bringing it up on a thread that, with all due respect, it has fuck all to do with?


----------



## billy_bob (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> The point is they can't afford to if they want to or not. Do you not see that?


 
That's _your _point. Unless you've been there in the last couple of months and are basing your speculation on first hand accounts of how this crime has affected the different classes of people in the area, it's no more _the point_ than me saying, for example, I'm sure the middle class people will want to move out because they're more capable of empathy than the people on the council estate.


----------



## cesare (May 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Yeah, but why not start a thread about people being trapped in "poverty pockets" or whatever people call them rather than bringing it up on a thread that, with all due respect, it has fuck all to do with?


Maybe it's a bit like the Tia Sharp thread - times when I had to just not say anything about some of what was being said otherwise there'd have been a bunfight and ruined the thread. Sort of thing. I can see where he's coming from, but I don't think this thread was like that.


----------



## bendeus (May 30, 2013)

billy_bob said:


> You're right, its hard to see how you can think of one without the other in future.  Like Saddleworth Moor.



I dunno. I spent a while working in Eritrea, then the youngest country on earth and one that had had countless horrors visted on it over 30 years' of brutal, asymmetric warfare that had targeted civilians as a matter of course. People got on with their lives when I was there; there was an awareness and acknowledgement of what had gone before, but human networks are resilient and capable of bouncing back. I would say that there will forever be an awareness and acknowledgement of what happened to April Jones but I seriously doubt it will be long-lasting. Our instinct is to move on, to love, live and grow: that is what it is to be human and, dare I say, to survive.

Those directly touched personally by it such as family and friends are a different matter, and my heart goes out to them all for what they will have to live through for the rest of their lives. As for the rest of the community, it will forever be a chapter in the history of Mach, but I can't quite buy that it will have been fundamentally changed by the experience. Dai the pisshead will still be propping up the bar in the Black Lion, people passing through will still wonder how a milk bar still survives there, the B&Bs will still be full of tourists enjoying the mountains.

Anyways, RIP April. Enjoy the rest of your life rotting in the nonce wing, Bridger, you disgusting fuck.


----------



## thedockerslad (May 30, 2013)

Yes I'm sure some cunts from London are right.


----------



## equationgirl (May 30, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Yes I'm sure some cunts from London are right.


 
Not all of us are from London, and you're the only one behaving like that.


----------



## thedockerslad (May 30, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Not all of us are from London, and you're the only one behaving like that.


----------



## equationgirl (May 30, 2013)

You quoted my post but didn't say anything - what was the point?


----------



## DexterTCN (May 30, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Not all of us are from London, and you're the only one behaving like that.


 
Think you could give it a rest for a bit?

I'm sure if enough people are offended they can report it themselves, they don't need you...every thread I see you on you're trying to cause trouble.  Just report stuff you don't like instead of disrupting threads, eh?

Anyway *back on topic*...Einstein explained confusion with the concept of the speed of light (honest, it's on topic) by saying time can shrink and stretch.

Life for this cunt is going to be very stretched.   Food for those in solitary is not prepared separately...so eat up, every meal will be a chef's special.  At some point someone will get him, because they'll keep him on suicide watch to make sure he can't get out of it.   Others will come and go but everyone gets a free shot at him...anything...as long as it never ends.   They won't kill him, they like things to play with.   Like a cat.

He'll suffer every day till he dies....sometimes hard to stomach because _it doesn't seem enough _but the worst of us will make it worst for him.


----------



## UrbaneFox (May 30, 2013)

bendeus said:


> I dunno. I spent a while working in Eritrea, then the youngest country on earth and one that had had countless horrors visted on it over 30 years' of brutal, asymmetric warfare that had targeted civilians as a matter of course. People got on with their lives when I was there; there was an awareness and acknowledgement of what had gone before, but human networks are resilient and capable of bouncing back. I would say that there will forever be an awareness and acknowledgement of what happened to April Jones but I seriously doubt it will be long-lasting. Our instinct is to move on, to love, live and grow: that is what it is to be human and, dare I say, to survive.
> 
> Those directly touched personally by it such as family and friends are a different matter, and my heart goes out to them all for what they will have to live through for the rest of their lives. As for the rest of the community, it will forever be a chapter in the history of Mach, but I can't quite buy that it will have been fundamentally changed by the experience. Dai the pisshead will still be propping up the bar in the Black Lion, people passing through will still wonder how a milk bar still survives there, the B&Bs will still be full of tourists enjoying the mountains.
> 
> Anyways, RIP April. Enjoy the rest of your life rotting in the nonce wing, Bridger, you disgusting fuck.


 
Yes. I agree. I suspect, though, that with his happy memories of doing what he had longed to do for so long, he may survive reasonably happily.

He is more than a touch demented.

Another day I might look more closely at some people's urge to be a paedophile, but not now.


----------



## UrbaneFox (May 30, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> At some point someone will get him, because they'll keep him on suicide watch to make sure he can't get out of it. Others will come and go but everyone gets a free shot at him...anything...as long as it never ends. They won't kill him, they like things to play with. Like a cat.
> 
> He'll suffer every day till he dies....sometimes hard to stomach because _it doesn't seem enough _but the worst of us will make it worst for him.


 
If he is on a nonce wing maybe he will make friends, exchange notes and live reasonably peacefully.

Is this the kind of suicide watch that Fred West and Harold Shipman faced?

I have no idea what prison life will be like for him. You cannot beat up someone every day. He will be one of many inmates who have done terrible things.

Tonight a lot of us are much concerned with April Jones, but soon there will be another child murdered. I am not so sure that other prisoners will bother him all that much.

This is all speculation; I know nothing about the prison system / security.


----------



## Firky (May 30, 2013)

Some people seem to get excited about the prospect of prison justice served upon him. I am not bothered if he does have a horrific ordeal in prison and part of me hopes he does (I know, I know)... but I'd much rather hope that her remains are found so her parents have some closure. I had to turn the news off tonight because this murder being in the headlines again; coupled with Georgia Williams was a bit much to stomach when trying to unwind for the evening.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 31, 2013)

UrbaneFox said:


> ...I have no idea what prison life will be like for him. You cannot beat up someone every day. He will be one of many.
> 
> Tonight a lot of us are much concerned with April Jones, but soon there will soon be another child murdered. I am not so sure that other prisoners are goinn to bother him all that much.


No, no-one can get beaten every day. I said 'anything...as long as it counts'. Prison is stressful and boring, interesting and crushing. It's the worst place to be if you've committed a heinous crime.

If he manages to commit suicide, I don't have a problem with that. I'm not advocating cruel and unusual punishment but I wouldn't mind it. I look at April's pics and I see my own young grand-daughters, a primal thing kicks in. Kill, crush, destroy, nothing must threaten them - there's no thought of discussion or peace-making. And that's a good thing, but I also agree with the rule of law.

So I hope he lives long and suffers. Because yes, children will be murdered...all of the time. But many are put off such thoughts when considering the punishment.   You can't stop it, but we can keep it down to the least possible, can't we?


----------



## equationgirl (May 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> Think you could give it a rest for a bit?
> 
> I'm sure if enough people are offended they can report it themselves, they don't need you...every thread I see you on you're trying to cause trouble. Just report stuff you don't like instead of disrupting threads, eh?


 

Um, pardon? 

With respect, you know nothing about me and I am not trying to cause trouble. Please leave me alone, stop patronising me and stop following me from thread to thread which is clearly what you're doing.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Um, pardon?
> 
> With respect, you know nothing about me and I am not trying to cause trouble. Please leave me alone, stop patronising me and stop following me from thread to thread which is clearly what you're doing.


 
My point was that you try and undermine/deviate threads which are certainly worth discussing. I don't give a fuck about you  You're nothing to me but some text on a screen, I've never met you, I don't care to meet you. If you think I'm following you about, report it and provide some reasonable proof to the mods.

You _are_ trying to cause trouble...I saw you in that thread where you accused the person with MH problems that they were being disrespectful to people with MH problems...looking like an idiot with your 'leper' comment. You went onto treelover's thread about being stolen from and told him he'd be in trouble himself because....he hadn't paid tax on the money he gave to the guy who stole from him. You're on this thread starting shit with someone else.

I don't follow you around...you just pop up a lot on the interesting threads...but never have much positive input. Always involved in the trouble, eh.

Now..if you think this is too much...remember...


> I look at April's pics and I see my own young grand-daughters, a primal thing kicks in.


I have a little emotional investment in this kind of thread, daughters and grand-daughters...so contribute or fuck off.

The closest I've been to putting someone on ignore, ever.


----------



## Firky (May 31, 2013)

Fuck off, Dexter.


----------



## equationgirl (May 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> My point was that you try and undermine/deviate threads which are certainly worth discussing. I don't give a fuck about you  You're nothing to me but some text on a screen, I've never met you, I don't care to meet you. If you think I'm following you about, report it and provide some reasonable proof to the mods.
> 
> You _are_ trying to cause trouble...I saw you in that thread where you accused the person with MH problems that they were being disrespectful to people with MH problems...looking like an idiot with your 'leper' comment. You went onto treelover's thread about being stolen from and told him he'd be in trouble himself because....he hadn't paid tax on the money he gave to the guy who stole from him. You're on this thread starting shit with someone else.
> 
> ...


 
I think you're a nasty bullying piece of work, this isn't the first time you've done this to me. Stop. Now.

All I have done on this thread was to ask someone to explain a comment they made. I was not the only person to ask them to explain it, so I don't know why you're singling my posts out.

As for my other supposed 'crimes' - I said I used the word 'leper' when I meant outcast on that thread, and posted that at the time. So I get my words mixed up sometimes. Hardly the biggest crime in the world. On treelover's thread I genuinely didn't want him to get any more hassle than he was clearly getting (as did others) but again, it's my posts you choose to single out. 

A community has been devastated by this person's actions, a family has been torn apart by him. But no, bully someone on the internet instead. Nice one.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I think you're a nasty bullying piece of work, this isn't the first time you've done this to me. Stop. Now.
> 
> All I have done on this thread was to ask someone to explain a comment they made. I was not the only person to ask them to explain it, so I don't know why you're singling my posts out.
> 
> ...


 
I haven't singled-out anything...I've pointed out recent threads that you've tried to disrupt with your self-righteous bullshit...so here you go...the guy following you around just put you on ignore....explain that.


----------



## billy_bob (May 31, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Yes I'm sure some cunts from London are right.


 
Are you Scottish? If not, I'm from further north than you and, by your own logic, you're the cunt.


----------



## Streathamite (May 31, 2013)

Chip Barm said:


> It would appear to be something to do with judges sentencing rather than home secretaries.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prisoners_with_whole-life_tariffs


aahh...they've changed that


----------



## Teaboy (May 31, 2013)

With reference to places forever being tainted by a terrible crime I think its inevitable when its a small, rarely mentioned town / village.  When these sorts of crimes occur in the cities it doesn't stick in the memory, for instance I can't remember where Shipman committed his many crimes and I probably only remember about Fred West because my girlfriend comes from Gloucester.  But place names like Soham and Hungerford stick in the memory.


----------



## Streathamite (May 31, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Yes I'm sure some cunts from London are right.


In case you don't get out much, London has quite a lot of working class people, and that still doesn't justify you being so obnoxious here, in the service of a point which seems to elude everyone, including you


----------



## billy_bob (May 31, 2013)

Teaboy said:


> With reference to places forever being tainted by a terrible crime I think its inevitable when its a small, rarely mentioned town / village. When these sorts of crimes occur in the cities it doesn't stick in the memory, for instance I can't remember where Shipman committed his many crimes and I probably only remember about Fred West because my girlfriend comes from Gloucester. But place names like Soham and Hungerford stick in the memory.


 
bendeus was eloquent further up the page about how a place can overcome the taint of its past in such circumstances, but ultimately I think you're right, a gruesome crime or other horror casts a long shadow when the name of the location has few other significant associations for the wider population.  Dunblane.  Aberfan, even.


----------



## elbows (May 31, 2013)

Towns and cities can still be affected by such things too, by nature of them being collections of many smaller communities. Obviously the extent to which communities socialise, the size of them and the rate at which people come and go makes quite a difference though.


----------



## elbows (May 31, 2013)

And part of the difference between that and the affect on more isolated communities is that journalists are perhaps more likely to report on the affects on the latter.

Machynlleth is of course a powerful example of this both because of the press/national attention, but also the sheer number of people who were involved in the search.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2013)

billy_bob said:


> bendeus was eloquent further up the page about how a place can overcome the taint of its past in such circumstances, but ultimately I think you're right, a gruesome crime or other horror casts a long shadow when the name of the location has few other significant associations for the wider population. Dunblane. Aberfan, even.


cranley gardens


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 31, 2013)

Teaboy said:


> With reference to places forever being tainted by a terrible crime I think its inevitable when its a small, rarely mentioned town / village. When these sorts of crimes occur in the cities it doesn't stick in the memory, for instance I can't remember where Shipman committed his many crimes and I probably only remember about Fred West because my girlfriend comes from Gloucester. But place names like Soham and Hungerford stick in the memory.


 
Shipman committed his crimes in Hyde which is only a small place.


----------



## UrbaneFox (May 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> If he manages to commit suicide, I don't have a problem with that. I'm not advocating cruel and unusual punishment but I wouldn't mind it. I look at April's pics and I see my own young grand-daughters, a primal thing kicks in. Kill, crush, destroy, nothing must threaten them - there's no thought of discussion or peace-making. And that's a good thing, but I also agree with the rule of law.
> 
> So I hope he lives long and suffers. Because yes, children will be murdered...all of the time. But many are put off such thoughts when considering the punishment.
> 
> You can't stop it, but we can keep it down to the least possible, can't we?


 
I wonder if part of Mark Bridger's 'thinking' would understand and agree with some of the sadistic violence above.

". .. A primal thing kicks in... kill, crush, destroy, nothing must threaten them. You can't stop it ...many are put off such thoughts when considering the punishment."

Dexter, I suspect that you are somewhere else in the same spectrum.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 31, 2013)

UrbaneFox said:


> I wonder if part of Mark Bridger's 'thinking' would understand and agree with some of the sadistic violence above.
> 
> . .. A primal thing kicks in... kill, crush, destroy, nothing must threaten them. You can't stop it ...many are put off such thoughts when considering the punishment.
> 
> Dexter, I suspect that you are somewhere else in the same spectrum.


 
child rapist or sadist?

do tell


----------



## Streathamite (May 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> So I hope he lives long and suffers. Because yes, children will be murdered...all of the time. But many are put off such thoughts when considering the punishment.


Hmm...I really doubt if anyone sick and vile enough to murder a little girl is at all deterred by the likely punishment if caught. Their minds simply don't focus that way.


----------



## UrbaneFox (May 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> I look at April's pics and I see my own young grand-daughters, a primal thing kicks in. Kill, crush, destroy, nothing must threaten them - there's no thought of discussion or peace-making.


 
I don't know if we can blame "primal" for all things violent; it sounds like a vague "It's biological / glandular" excuse.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> I look at April's pics and I see my own young grand-daughters, a primal thing kicks in. Kill, crush, destroy, nothing must threaten them


it may be primal with your own children, but it seems more like trying to be a big man when you say that about your grandchildren. nothing must threaten them? and how do you do that when you see them less frequently than you saw your own children when they were young? this is you posturing it's nothing primal.


----------



## thedockerslad (Jun 2, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Yeah, but why not start a thread about people being trapped in "poverty pockets" or whatever people call them rather than bringing it up on a thread that, with all due respect, it has fuck all to do with?


 
Because as I mentioned earlier I do know the area and as soon as I saw the news reports of April's disappearance I realised she had been taken from a council estate there. It's not an area that many visitors to CAT will ever see unless they get lost. Those are my thoughts and they have as much validity as yours or anyone else posting on these bulletin boards.


----------



## thedockerslad (Jun 2, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Yes I'm sure some cunts from London are right.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 2, 2013)

Streathamite said:


> Hmm...I really doubt if anyone sick and vile enough to murder a little girl is at all deterred by the likely punishment if caught. Their minds simply don't focus that way.


I don't think it's even that: I just don't think that the mindset that goes with sexually abusing/murdering a child and that that goes with considering the consequences of the act fit together in any way. Most of us wouldn't contemplate doing such a thing, mostly because it is completely repugnant to us, but - for some at least - because the thought of being caught and punished for it is intolerable. But the few - and it is only a few - who do go on to commit such deeds...well, I think they've closed off the part of their mind that would enable them to feel shame or fear at the consequences.

I don't honestly think the harshness of the punishment represents a significant deterrent for the kind of person who'd do this sort of thing - though it is there, of course, to serve other purposes, namely retribution and keeping someone like that out of society where he might do exactly the same thing again.

I find myself trying to figure out how people like this think - likewise with Stuart Hazell - and I simply can't. I am sure there must be a valid psychological explanation for the behaviours beyond "werl, they're just evil" (which seems a bit conveniently glib to me), but I don't really understand what it is. I expect someone's written a PhD thesis on it, if I could really be bothered to do some research...


----------



## existentialist (Jun 2, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Because as I mentioned earlier I do know the area and as soon as I saw the news reports of April's disappearance I realised she had been taken from a council estate there. It's not an area that many visitors to CAT will ever see unless they get lost.


I think it's pretty fucking disrespectful that you can choose to use the suffering of a community to make some kind of cheap class-based point.

There might be all kinds of reasons why people in "lower-class" parts of society might be more prone to having horrible things happen to them than those in more affluent areas (if that's even true - I don't know), but oversimplistic posturing, coupled, no doubt, with the inevitable mouthbreathing swearing and ranting that will come in response to posts like this, are nothing more than ideological jerking off over the issue.



thedockerslad said:


> Those are my thoughts and they have as much validity as yours or anyone else posting on these bulletin boards.


Ahem. Potentially, perhaps. In practice, their validity has quite a lot to do with how well you express them. On the current showing, my validity-o-meter is hovering somewhere between "fuck all" and "arsebiscuits".


----------



## UrbaneFox (Jun 2, 2013)

Existentialist:
You say "I am sure there must be a valid psychological explanation for the behaviours beyond "werl, they're just evil" (which seems a bit conveniently glib to me), but I don't really understand what it is. I expect someone's written a PhD thesis on it, if I could really be bothered to do some research... "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/peter-aylward


----------



## existentialist (Jun 2, 2013)

UrbaneFox said:


> Existentialist:
> You say "I am sure there must be a valid psychological explanation for the behaviours beyond "werl, they're just evil" (which seems a bit conveniently glib to me), but I don't really understand what it is. I expect someone's written a PhD thesis on it, if I could really be bothered to do some research... "
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/peter-aylward


Bugger. It's going to be churlish of me not to now go and read some of his stuff, isn't it?


----------



## UrbaneFox (Jun 3, 2013)

It's his book, more than the Guardian piece.


----------



## thedockerslad (Jun 3, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I think it's pretty fucking disrespectful that you can choose to use the suffering of a community to make some kind of cheap class-based point.
> 
> There might be all kinds of reasons why people in "lower-class" parts of society might be more prone to having horrible things happen to them than those in more affluent areas (if that's even true - I don't know), but oversimplistic posturing, coupled, no doubt, with the inevitable mouthbreathing swearing and ranting that will come in response to posts like this, are nothing more than ideological jerking off over the issue.
> 
> ...


 
You say lower class I say working class or proletariat. I find you disrespectful and you can shove all your stupid opinions right up your fucking arse.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Jun 3, 2013)

I shall not attempt to analyse "shove all your stupid opinions right up your fucking arse".


----------



## existentialist (Jun 3, 2013)

UrbaneFox said:


> It's his book, more than the Guardian piece.


Yeah, I am hovering over the "Buy now" button on Amazon, but it's £23, and I have a pile of books I've already got that I haven't read yet!


----------



## UhOhSeven (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm tempted to buy it just to see how anorexia fits in with the title.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 3, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> You say lower class I say working class or proletariat. I find you disrespectful and you can shove all your stupid opinions right up your fucking arse.


Pah, semantics. You can take your political-baggage-laden labels and shove THEM where the sun doesn't shine, too - I am generally far more interested in_ people_ than posturing and labels. [ETA: I notice you conveniently omitted to note that my "lower class" label was in quotation marks - presumably acknowledging those would have restricted your ability to get all hot under your proletarian collar?]

And I'm certainly not interested in the opinions of someone who's so dogma-obsessed that no tragedy, however horrible, is beyond his desire to turn everything into his own pet hobbyhorse.

Oh, and I would have tried your suggestion, only I couldn't find any of my own opinions that I thought were stupid, and all of mine were in any case too big to fit up my own arse, despite it being not especially compact. Yours, on the other hand, fitted very nicely, and have given me a pleasant evening's farting posturing bluster around the place, in some cases causing the wallpaper to curl up and drop off. I suppose some thanks is due at least for that.

Do have a lovely evening, my proletarian little friend.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 3, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> I'm tempted to buy it just to see how anorexia fits in with the title.


"control".

There. I've saved you £23. You owe me a pint


----------



## UhOhSeven (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm not convinced. Have a half.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2013)

existentialist said:


> "control".
> 
> There. I've saved you £23. You owe me a pint


Out of curiosity do anorexicks buy food and let it rot/throw it away or do they 'save' money by not buying food?


----------



## existentialist (Jun 4, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Out of curiosity do anorexicks buy food and let it rot/throw it away or do they 'save' money by not buying food?


I'm not really an expert on eating disorders (too close to home, perhaps), but anorexia covers a whole spectrum of behaviours, so there will be people who don't buy food, all the way through to those who cook an entire meal and then don't eat it.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 4, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Out of curiosity do anorexicks buy food and let it rot/throw it away or do they 'save' money by not buying food?


When my sister was anorexic, she had a thriving cake-making business. I believe that sort of behaviour (deliberating exposing yourself to very highly calorific foods which you then exercise control over by not even licking the bowl) is quite common


----------



## purenarcotic (Jun 4, 2013)

Very common to hoard food. Or to make big meals and watch it go cold. The control is the high. 

Also watching cooking shows, looking at pictures, generally obsessing totally about it.


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 4, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I don't think it's even that: I just don't think that the mindset that goes with sexually abusing/murdering a child and that that goes with considering the consequences of the act fit together in any way. Most of us wouldn't contemplate doing such a thing, mostly because it is completely repugnant to us, but - for some at least - because the thought of being caught and punished for it is intolerable. But the few - and it is only a few - who do go on to commit such deeds...well, I think they've closed off the part of their mind that would enable them to feel shame or fear at the consequences.
> 
> I don't honestly think the harshness of the punishment represents a significant deterrent for the kind of person who'd do this sort of thing - though it is there, of course, to serve other purposes, namely retribution and keeping someone like that out of society where he might do exactly the same thing again.
> 
> I find myself trying to figure out how people like this think - likewise with Stuart Hazell - and I simply can't. I am sure there must be a valid psychological explanation for the behaviours beyond "werl, they're just evil" (which seems a bit conveniently glib to me), but I don't really understand what it is. I expect someone's written a PhD thesis on it, if I could really be bothered to do some research...


agreed entirely


----------



## thedockerslad (Jun 4, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Pah, semantics. You can take your political-baggage-laden labels and shove THEM where the sun doesn't shine, too - I am generally far more interested in_ people_ than posturing and labels. [ETA: I notice you conveniently omitted to note that my "lower class" label was in quotation marks - presumably acknowledging those would have restricted your ability to get all hot under your proletarian collar?]





existentialist said:


> And I'm certainly not interested in the opinions of someone who's so dogma-obsessed that no tragedy, however horrible, is beyond his desire to turn everything into his own pet hobbyhorse.
> 
> Oh, and I would have tried your suggestion, only I couldn't find any of my own opinions that I thought were stupid, and all of mine were in any case too big to fit up my own arse, despite it being not especially compact. Yours, on the other hand, fitted very nicely, and have given me a pleasant evening's farting posturing bluster around the place, in some cases causing the wallpaper to curl up and drop off. I suppose some thanks is due at least for that.
> 
> Do have a lovely evening, my proletarian little friend.




Don't ever think of me as your friend.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Jun 4, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> I'm tempted to buy it just to see how anorexia fits in with the title.


He presents one case where the patient, who had a complicated start in life, undergoes what might be seen as a long, drawn-out self-massacre. Some hospital staff and family are psychologially "massacred" by the experience.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jun 4, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Don't ever think of me as your friend.


 
What about if existentialist was to offer friendship with benefits?


----------



## existentialist (Jun 4, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Don't ever think of me as your friend.


OK, pal.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 4, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> What about if existentialist was to offer friendship with benefits?


Yeah. Proles like benefits


----------



## UrbaneFox (Jun 4, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Very common to hoard food. Or to make big meals and watch it go cold. The control is the high.
> 
> Also watching cooking shows, looking at pictures, generally obsessing totally about it.


 
Some chefs and food stylists (people who polish tomatoes and choose the perfect strawberry for photo shoots) have eating disorders.

I remember a few very thin waitresses I encountered in Italy, and recently two very thin waitresses working in a restaurant on Parkway who seemed to stare at me with utter disgust as I ate.

Maybe the Italy thing was that I was eating alone. My table manners are not particularly piggish so I wondered if waitressing appeals to people who have eating disorders. I am not eating, you are, I am giving you all the fat. I can't remember too much about that.

Try: Em Farrell on Amazon.

* I just did. It is out of print, but I'm sure it will be back.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jun 4, 2013)

UrbaneFox said:


> Some chefs and food stylists (people who polish tomatoes and choose the perfect strawberry for photo shoots) have eating disorders.
> 
> I remember a few very thin waitresses I encountered in Italy, and recently two very thin waitresses working in a restaurant on Parkway who seemed to stare at me with utter disgust as I ate.
> 
> ...


 
Well I don't think it's a career that appeals to those with eating disorders per se but yes, some people with EDs will view those who eat adequately with disgust; it's all tied into the high of not eating and how good it makes you feel to know that you're getting thinner while others get fat.   There's also often feelings of jealousy too, that they perceive you as eating without a care.

It's very complex.


----------



## Red Cat (Jun 4, 2013)

Em Farrel's book is available online:

http://www.psychoanalysis-and-therapy.com/human_nature/farrell/acknow.html


----------



## kebabking (Jun 4, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Don't ever think of me as your friend.


 
i don't think thats a problem you're going to be burdened with, do you?


----------



## existentialist (Jun 4, 2013)

kebabking said:


> i don't think thats a problem you're going to be burdened with, do you?


Oh, the horror! 

Still, it's quite flattering to think he even considered the possibility that I might. Poor chap, if he only knew the kind of company I prefer to keep...


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2013)

> Convicted murderer and rapist Juvinal Ferreira, 24, attacked Bridger with a razor blade at the top security Wakefield Prison in July 2012."He (Ferreira) said that Bridger's crime had been discussed, and he claimed people had suggested that if Bridger was attacked, rather than say befriended, Bridger would then be more likely to reveal where April Jones's body was."
> The premeditated attack happened three days after Bridger was allowed to associate with other prisoners.
> 
> Ferreira fashioned a weapon out of a prison-issue razor with extra blades attached to the handle.
> ...



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ort-to-learn-where-April-Joness-body-was.html


----------



## dylanredefined (Oct 3, 2013)

brogdale said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ort-to-learn-where-April-Joness-body-was.html



 Oh dear how sad never mind.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 3, 2013)

Indeed, never mind.

Wonder what his twisted reasoning is for not revealing where her body is, he has been convicted after all.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

Because that's his only bargaining power.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Because that's his only bargaining power.


 
But bargaining for what?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2013)

weltweit said:


> But bargaining for what?


I don't know. Something that he wants but is not currently allowed?


----------



## Serotonin (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I don't know. Something that he wants but is not currently allowed?



Probably thinks it keeps him relevant and people interested, as opposed to rotting in prison. If the press reports were accurate he was portrayed as a total fantasist and narcissist.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 3, 2013)

It's power, not necessarily about bargaining. The whole crime is about power. 

Although the bone fragments they found could mean that there isn't anything much left of April to bury


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I don't know. Something that he wants but is not currently allowed?


Brady does similar from time to time, does he not?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 3, 2013)

trashpony said:


> It's power, not necessarily about bargaining. The whole crime is about power.
> 
> Although the bone fragments they found could mean that there isn't anything much left of April to bury


Liked for agreement, obviously.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 3, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Brady does similar from time to time, does he not?


quite.  and with brady it's clearly deliberate (or at least, imo).  The whole character of Brady's crimes was about torturing people - holding all the power.  Afaic he's got off on torturing those still desperate to bury their child, and he's been getting off on it for half a century now.

Perhaps i'm only recently coming to a conclusion that was evident to everyone else for ages but...

I think that when we hear of these crimes, we try to make sense of the horror if we can. make some empathetic leaps...  so *if* i was a paedophile and *if* i acted on that and *if* it then went somehow wrong and i ended up killing the child (because the defence story plants that 'accidental death' seed in our mind)...  that makes me bad and in need of punishment, but surely i'd also feel remorse and want to make things better for the families.

but i think that's where we go wrong.  the whole point is that killing kids doesn't end up being something that even remotely comes close to happening to us... BECAUSE we are not like these men and women.  People who get to that point are people who enjoy hurting people.  who like making people suffer - it's intrinsic to their personalities because if it wasn't, they would have never have got close to committing one of these extreme crimes.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 3, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> quite.  and with brady it's clearly deliberate (or at least, imo).  The whole character of Brady's crimes was about torturing people - holding all the power.  Afaic he's got off on torturing those still desperate to bury their child, and he's been getting off on it for half a century now.
> 
> Perhaps i'm only recently coming to a conclusion that was evident to everyone else for ages but...
> 
> ...




Maybe but, is that not saying though that "evil" is an external thing that affects neither you nor I? I'm not trying to normalise an awful crime like this one, but that's kind of how you're coming over - "Othering" these offenders. AFAIC they are us - And they walk among us, they aren't a seperate species.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 3, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Maybe but, is that not saying though that "evil" is an external thing that affects neither you nor I? I'm not trying to normalise an awful crime like this one, but that's kind of how you're coming over - "Othering" these offenders. AFAIC they are us - And they walk among us, they aren't a seperate species.


not a separate species.  i don't subscribe to the idea of 'monsters'...  but just as you can have people who completely believe in punishing poor people and giving tax breaks to the rich at their expense... which just leaves me absolutely baffled and i genuinely can't get my head round how they can lack even basic compassion or sense of egalitarianism.  but they're the same pecies, and not necessarily stupid - my sister thinks like that and we grew up in the same house with the same values, ffs...  well, what i'm saying is there are a (hopefully) smaller number of people who genuinely get pleasure from knowing they've hurt someone else and caused pain.  and because that's not how most people's minds work, we try to make what they have done 'fit' our own personalities... which leads us to be confused when they don't do the decent thing and say where the bodies are.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 4, 2013)

weltweit said:


> But bargaining for what?


Power? Significance? Who knows? 

It doesn't have to be logical except in his own mind.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 4, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Maybe but, is that not saying though that "evil" is an external thing that affects neither you nor I? I'm not trying to normalise an awful crime like this one, but that's kind of how you're coming over - "Othering" these offenders. AFAIC they are us - And they walk among us, they aren't a seperate species.



I think we miss something if we don't accept that the extent of some people's cruelty and sadism makes them unlike most people. I think this is one of the reasons why children's services miss serious abuse when faced with the evidence because it's easier to believe the parents excuses than accept that someone can be so cruel.

I think you're right that we have to acknowledge our own capacity for cruelty but there's a big difference between ordinary cruelty tempered by our capacity to love and the sadism of a person who deliberately kills a child. We're not doing anyone any favours by pretending that it's not so dissimilar.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 4, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> quite.  and with brady it's clearly deliberate (or at least, imo).  The whole character of Brady's crimes was about torturing people - holding all the power.  Afaic he's got off on torturing those still desperate to bury their child, and he's been getting off on it for half a century now.
> 
> Perhaps i'm only recently coming to a conclusion that was evident to everyone else for ages but...
> 
> ...



yep


----------



## existentialist (Oct 4, 2013)

Red Cat said:


> I think we miss something if we don't accept that the extent of some people's cruelty and sadism makes them unlike most people. I think this is one of the reasons why children's services miss serious abuse when faced with the evidence because it's easier to believe the parents excuses than accept that someone can be so cruel.


True.



Red Cat said:


> I think you're right that we have to acknowledge our own capacity for cruelty but there's a big difference between ordinary cruelty tempered by our capacity to love and the sadism of a person who deliberately kills a child. We're not doing anyone any favours by pretending that it's not so dissimilar.


Also true, but what is absolutely critical is that we guard against any tendency to distance ourselves from these people. Once we label them as "not human", or similar, we lose the ability to take any responsibility for what they get up to, and that's how they get away with things - it makes it easier for us to miss their abuses.


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## co-op (Oct 4, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Also true, but what is absolutely critical is that we guard against any tendency to distance ourselves from these people. Once we label them as "not human", or similar, we lose the ability to take any responsibility for what they get up to, and that's how they get away with things - it makes it easier for us to miss their abuses.



Not sure that I'd agree with this, there's reams of evidence from history of how fairly basic environmental stimuli can turn 'ordinary' people into 'monsters' - the 20th Century is littered with examples - so is the 21st. This guy who's just knifed Bridger - he's a fucking murder and rapist who has attacked a beleagured imprisoned individual yet his actions will be lauded by all sorts of people - they already have been on here - as somehow admirable.


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## existentialist (Oct 4, 2013)

co-op said:


> Not sure that I'd agree with this, there's reams of evidence from history of how fairly basic environmental stimuli can turn 'ordinary' people into 'monsters' - the 20th Century is littered with examples - so is the 21st. This guy who's just knifed Bridger - he's a fucking murder and rapist who has attacked a beleagured imprisoned individual yet his actions will be lauded by all sorts of people - they already have been on here - as somehow admirable.


Sure. But it doesn't help us to make it too easy to distance ourselves from them. That's a natural tendency we have, but it's not helpful: we tend to disown them, then stop taking responsibility for what they do. Which is, as someone else already pointed out, how we then miss them and the clues they leave for so long.


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## co-op (Oct 4, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Sure. But it doesn't help us to make it too easy to distance ourselves from them. That's a natural tendency we have, but it's not helpful: we tend to disown them, then stop taking responsibility for what they do. Which is, as someone else already pointed out, how we then miss them and the clues they leave for so long.



Apologies my answer was badly written - I agree with this, I disagree with the "true" at the beginning. I meant to quote the other persons post but forgot. The monsters/normal dichotomy is not between people but between behaviours imo.


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## Red Cat (Oct 4, 2013)

existentialist said:


> True.
> 
> Also true, but what is absolutely critical is that we guard against any tendency to distance ourselves from these people. Once we label them as "not human", or similar, we lose the ability to take any responsibility for what they get up to, and that's how they get away with things - it makes it easier for us to miss their abuses.



I'm not suggesting distancing ourselves from extreme cruelty; I'm suggesting looking it in the eye.


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## Red Cat (Oct 4, 2013)

co-op said:


> Apologies my answer was badly written - I agree with this, I disagree with the "true" at the beginning. I meant to quote the other persons post but forgot. The monsters/normal dichotomy is not between people but between behaviours imo.



If you're talking about me, I didn't imply anything about monsters.

However, how do you separate a person from his/her actions?


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## weltweit (Nov 17, 2014)

*April Jones murder: Killer's house demolished in Wales*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30080254


> A demolition team has begun tearing down a cottage dubbed the "house of evil", where Mark Bridger is believed to have murdered five-year-old April Jones.
> 
> Work to raze the house in Ceinws, Powys, was witnessed by April's parents, Coral and Paul Jones, who wanted the building flattened.


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## UrbaneFox (Nov 17, 2014)

weltweit said:


> *April Jones murder: Killer's house demolished in Wales*
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30080254



a cottage dubbed the "house of evil"

When will this kind of talk end?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2014)

UrbaneFox said:


> a cottage dubbed the "house of evil"
> 
> When will this kind of talk end?


i'm waiting for the bungalow of evil


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## Dogsauce (Nov 17, 2014)

The Shed of Depravity.
The Greenhouse of Woe.


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## 1927 (Nov 17, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm waiting for the bungalow of evil



The villa of villainy!


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## Greebo (Nov 17, 2014)

The treehouse of tyranny.


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## UrbaneFox (Nov 17, 2014)

The Granny Flat of Doom

The extension of filth


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## bendeus (Nov 17, 2014)

The mid-link of misery


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## tonysingh (Nov 17, 2014)

The studio flat of silliness.

I've not got the hang of this have I?


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## JimW (Nov 17, 2014)

The pied a terre of perdition.


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## UrbaneFox (Nov 17, 2014)

The bedsit of debauchery

The Buy-to-let of Buggery

The Dorma-bungalow of Death


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## JimW (Nov 17, 2014)

The duplex of doom.


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## Gingerman (Nov 17, 2014)

The terrace of terror....


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## JimW (Nov 17, 2014)

Satan Lagged Our Boiler


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## Greebo (Nov 17, 2014)

The annexe of agony

The outhouse of obscenity


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## tonysingh (Nov 17, 2014)

the communal staircase of chaos!


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## Gingerman (Nov 17, 2014)

The mansion of misery....


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## Greebo (Nov 17, 2014)

The potting shed of passive aggression (about which I'm totally fine, no need to make a fuss on my account).


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## bendeus (Nov 17, 2014)

Gingerman said:


> The mansion of misery....


I've already bagsied the mid-link of misery sorry, gingerman


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## bendeus (Nov 17, 2014)

The wigwam of wickedness?


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## Greebo (Nov 17, 2014)

bendeus said:


> The wigwam of wanton wickedness?


CFY


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## tonysingh (Nov 17, 2014)

the yurt of yuckiness?


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## agricola (Nov 17, 2014)

the souterrain of pain


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## bendeus (Nov 18, 2014)

Greebo said:


> CFY


Yes. Wanton was needed here


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## bendeus (Nov 18, 2014)

Sorry, the igloo of iniquity. Had to do it!


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## Greebo (Nov 18, 2014)

tonysingh said:


> the yurt of yuckiness?


If you really must.


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## story (Nov 18, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> quite.  and with brady it's clearly deliberate (or at least, imo).  The whole character of Brady's crimes was about torturing people - holding all the power.  Afaic he's got off on torturing those still desperate to bury their child, and he's been getting off on it for half a century now.
> 
> Perhaps i'm only recently coming to a conclusion that was evident to everyone else for ages but...
> 
> ...






existentialist said:


> True.
> 
> 
> Also true, but what is absolutely critical is that we guard against any tendency to distance ourselves from these people. Once we label them as "not human", or similar, we lose the ability to take any responsibility for what they get up to, and that's how they get away with things - it makes it easier for us to miss their abuses.





Red Cat said:


> I'm not suggesting distancing ourselves from extreme cruelty; I'm suggesting looking it in the eye.



Missed this at the time.

I think we are compelled to try to make those empathic/imaginative leaps that spanglechick outlines exactly because the concept is so utterly alien to us. It's unimaginable, and so beyond our ken; so in order to try to make sense of it we try to make those leaps. It's the empathic person who makes that attempt, out of empathy. But of course anyone who's in the least bit empathic can't make the final step to actually acting any of it out.

But it works the other way around as well. I was thinking today that out of the hundreds of people who post here, statistically some of us are abusers. Would we recognise that in ourself? Or in each other? Knowing one another, however distantly, gives us an illusion of "knowing" how others in our own community might think, do, say, in any given circumstance.


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## billy_bob (Nov 18, 2014)

tonysingh said:


> the yurt of yuckiness?



I think that's in very poor taste.  

As we all know, that nickname was given to Ruddy by his one-time collaborator jazz oboeist Rodolphus Jacques in June 1976, when they were attending the same clinic in Bruges to overcome the debilitating Fruit Pastilles addiction with which they both struggled for so many years.  The speculation about what Jacques was referring to has often been prurient, but to bring it up here and encourage people to make some kind of association with a case like this is a new low.


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## 1927 (Nov 18, 2014)

tonysingh said:


> the yurt of yuckiness?






			
				fifetoday said:
			
		

> *
> The children and parents of Methilhill Community Children Initiative (MCCI) got together for a spooky spectacular at the weekend.
> 
> As well as the traditional Halloween celebrations, including dooking for apples and dangling doughnuts, there were spooky stories in the yucky yurt and a fundraising marquee full of stalls..*


*

Sorry couldn't post link from my phone!
*


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 18, 2014)

The pied-à-terre of perversion.

Salut - Louis MacNeice


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 18, 2014)

Beast's Bedsit


----------



## tonysingh (Nov 18, 2014)

Paedophiles Penthouse?


----------



## UrbaneFox (Nov 18, 2014)

This thread is now closed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2014)

UrbaneFox said:


> This thread is now closed.


i can't let that happen without mentioning the flat of filth


----------



## billy_bob (Nov 18, 2014)

UrbaneFox said:


> This thread is now closed.



thread of a threatening nature


----------



## tonysingh (Nov 18, 2014)

is it?


----------



## Greebo (Nov 18, 2014)

Doghouse of debauchery


----------



## tonysingh (Nov 18, 2014)

Pantry of Perversion


----------



## JimW (Nov 18, 2014)

The shits-you chateau.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 18, 2014)

Undercroft of unkindness


----------



## tonysingh (Nov 18, 2014)

thatched roof of terror


----------



## billy_bob (Nov 19, 2014)

Bothy of brutality


----------



## Greebo (Nov 19, 2014)

The horrific hovel of hatred.


----------



## mentalchik (Nov 19, 2014)

The residence of repulsive repugnance


----------



## mentalchik (Nov 19, 2014)

The Heinous Homestead


----------



## billy_bob (Nov 19, 2014)

Lodge of lasciviousness


----------



## Greebo (Nov 19, 2014)

The coalhole of cruelty


----------



## Mungy (Nov 19, 2014)

sprawling barn conversion of inequality


----------



## mentalchik (Nov 19, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i can't let that happen without mentioning the flat of filth



I don't recall your visit here.............


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2014)

the office of ordure


----------



## Greebo (Nov 19, 2014)

The bureau of brutal bestiality.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 19, 2014)

The maisonette of murder.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 19, 2014)

The ghastly garret.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 19, 2014)

The 'orrible outhouse.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 19, 2014)

The car port of carnality.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Nov 19, 2014)

The beautifully-restored Georgian townhouse of bestiality.


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 19, 2014)

The basement of bestiality. The cottage of carnage. The hut of hurt. The loft of lust. The penthouse of paedophilia. The villa of violation.


----------



## Mungy (Nov 19, 2014)

the holiday let of local animosity


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 19, 2014)

the terrapin of terror


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 19, 2014)

The loft-style apartment of lycanthropy.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 19, 2014)

The house boat of human bondage.


----------



## trabuquera (Nov 19, 2014)

the dwelling of depravity
the abode of abuse


----------



## Mungy (Nov 19, 2014)

the country pile of utter cuntishness


----------

