# UNION related chat, reflections and experiences. Reps & members alike!



## Treacle Toes (Mar 9, 2016)

I think it would be good to have a general thread for union reps and members to share their experiences, questions, anecdotes etc.

After many years of wanting too, I have finally become a union rep.  Early days mind.  The good thing is that it a currently a time of 'peace' and very little on the table between staff and management which gives me an opportunity to settle in to the role.


Are you a rep? Are you a member? What's it like where you are? Any sticky moments? Bugbears? Tell us more.


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## krtek a houby (Mar 9, 2016)

Until my redundancy; I was a member for many years. Most of the reps I dealt with were very helpful - apart from one who bullied me whilst in the workplace. I should have done something about it but didn't and it eventually led to a breakdown. After several weeks off; I came back to work & that person started up again & I roared at them. I then was cautioned by one of my superiors & had to attend a mediation thingy with the other person.

Aside from that; I was proud to be a member (don't normally do "proud") and respected the reps.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 9, 2016)

How about some helpful dos and don'ts?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2016)

been a union rep for a while now, had my first piece of casework in december & wiped the floor with hr


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## Lord Camomile (Mar 9, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> I think it would be good to have a general thread for union reps and members to share their experiences, questions, anecdotes etc.
> 
> After many years of wanting too, I have finally become a union rep.  Early days mind.  The good thing is that it a currently a time of 'peace' and very little on the table between staff and management which gives me an opportunity to settle in to the role.
> 
> ...


Very much like you, after many years of having a token membership (UNISON) I've finally got more active over the last 6 months and am now a rep, Union Learning Rep and Comms Officer.

We're not exactly in a time of "peace" (far from it really ) but up until recently the union has been rather weak and invisible, which means those of us who have recently got involved are getting a lot of licence to set our own agenda in terms of our role and what we do. That's also why I've very quickly been enlisted into those different branch roles (all shared with other reps, I should say)!

Went on a 5-day intro course which I have to say was quite disappointing - not a lot on employment law, what we are allowed to do, what we're not allowed to do, how to prepare, etc. So, lots of learning to do.

Top idea for a thread


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 9, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> *Went on a 5-day intro course *which I have to say was quite disappointing - not a lot on employment law, what we are allowed to do, what we're not allowed to do, how to prepare, etc. So, lots of learning to do.
> 
> Top idea for a thread



Oh god...I have been putting that off actually... Mostly because it means commuting to Dagenham Dock for 5 days running.  

There are loads more courses though aren't there? So you can do add-ons after the intro one. I think I am gonna do as many of them as possible over the time I am working in this organisation as they are very encouraging in terms of PD.


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## Miss-Shelf (Mar 9, 2016)

I have been a memeber of a union since 1997, changing unions 6 years ago to UCU in my present workplace

I have only had to call on a union seriously once and they were ok - found the local rep too overwhelmed by their workload to be very much help and had to go to regional for more support.

Also, the rep had been called in the year before to support the person who I was needing the help with so that sort of influenced them I think 
must be difficult for them to call it in those circumstances
this was not a workplace rep but the local contact
I also find that many active members of unions are fighting the good fight of revolution and so all conflicts or debates are framed within that

sometimes members want to call on unions for more of a mediation affair

My current workplace has been in union-management conflict ever since I arrived.   Quite a lot of strike days or other action
I am all for taking strike action to either stick together and protest or for leverage on a situation
however, action in the last year has felt particularly hopeless
plus not everyone is in the union and the work does not go away after a strike day as its still on my tariff to do - just without pay!

Also, the biggest issue for me is workload - it was massive when I arrived and has increased year on year
we never get to fight this because we're always firefighting redundancies

plus management have picked off key union members in redundancies


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 9, 2016)

Miss-Shelf said:


> plus management have picked off key union members in redundancies



Deliberately getting shot of active/effective ones?


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## Lord Camomile (Mar 9, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Oh god...I have been putting that off actually... Mostly because it means commuting to Dagenham Dock for 5 days running.
> 
> There are loads more courses though aren't there? So you can do add-ons after the intro one. I think I am gonna do as many of them as possible over the time I am working in this organisation as they are very encouraging in terms of PD.


Yeah, I've got my eye on "Update on Employment Law" and... sod it, another - I've marked it down in the training schedule 

My place is encouraging on what they view as useful PD, but they seemed a bit clueless as to the regs for union training (basically they asked me to justify it, which they aren't really supposed to do). Think a lot of this is because of how little the unions are a part of day-to-day worklife here. Hoping to do a bit of (re-)educating all round on that front.


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## Miss-Shelf (Mar 9, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Deliberately getting shot of active/effective ones?


yes


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## Lord Camomile (Mar 9, 2016)

Miss-Shelf said:


> plus management have picked off key union members in redundancies





Rutita1 said:


> Deliberately getting shot of active/effective ones?





Miss-Shelf said:


> yes


One thing that was good about the Intro training course was meeting all the other reps from other workplaces, which really put the grievances of my own colleagues into perspective. We just haven't had to deal with stuff like that, although of course we'll see if that continues to hold true as the union gets more active and vocal. I'd like to hope so.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> How about some helpful dos and don'ts?



Only one "don't" worth bothering with, in my experience:

*Don't* let yourself be co-opted by the bosses. Even when you might agree with a point the bosses are making, your primary job as a rep is to look after the interests of the workers - even though sometimes those workers may be piss-takers and twats as individuals.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> been a union rep for a while now, had my first piece of casework in december & wiped the floor with hr



I always found HR depts, regardless of the unions I was in (USDAW, CWU, CPSU, Prospect) to be poorly-informed, and highly-reliant on intimidation.Wasn't unusual for HR to be totally without a comeback when you informed them that their disciplinary procedure was illegal, and that precedent in tribunals was usually for a couple of grand to be awarded to the wronged employee. I'm not sure that any of them had a fucking clue about workplace legislation.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 9, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> even though sometimes those workers may be piss-takers and twats as individuals.



Right....how do people deal with these individuals?


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Deliberately getting shot of active/effective ones?



It's a standard tactic across the board - either promote or transfer you out of your current branch, or snow you under with fallacious disciplinary bullshit.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I always found HR depts, regardless of the unions I was in (USDAW, CWU, CPSU, Prospect) to be poorly-informed, and highly-reliant on intimidation.Wasn't unusual for HR to be totally without a comeback when you informed them that their disciplinary procedure was illegal, and that precedent in tribunals was usually for a couple of grand to be awarded to the wronged employee. I'm not sure that any of them had a fucking clue about workplace legislation.


nor in this case about their own policies.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 9, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's a standard tactic across the board - either promote or transfer you out of your current branch, or snow you under with fallacious disciplinary bullshit.



I am aware of common tactics, I just wanted to be clear about what Shelfy meant in her situation.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Right....how do people deal with these individuals?



Frankly, I just dealt with the arseholes the same as I did with members who weren't arseholes: *Swallow your objections and concentrate on the case rather than the individual*. I had one case whose victim was an extremely-racist and anti-English Welsh woman, who'd been disciplined for theft. The disciplinary was based on management hearsay - the evidence was only "x saw y steal", a typical "he says, she says" scenario. I couldn't stand the woman or her "politics", but the case was cut and dried - if you bring a disciplinary, it had to be on substantive evidence of wrongdoing, not on the unverifiable claims of a boss who I was able to prove - much to the chagrin of area management - was not honest enough to have his word taken as gospel.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> nor in this case about their own policies.



Even less excuse for them making a pig's ear of it, then!
Still they do make the life of a union rep easier.


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## Sprocket. (Mar 9, 2016)

I started work on 17/6/74 as an apprentice mechanical craftsman, I was a member of AUEW young person section by lunch.
I can remember Derek Simpson when he was a works convenor. Although our convenor was steadily supplying us with copies of the Morning Star and encouraging us to get involved, the management did not take kindly to what they saw as the politicisation of the apprentices. Strangely enough as soon as I had finished my apprenticeship I was let go!
I got involved later with the Amicus Gazette and was pleased to see the back of our union leader, Blair's favourite Sir Ken Jackson.
I have been active and was also a works rep for ten years in my previous job. Mostly dealing with disciplinary issues and redundancies. I can thoroughly agree with Frances O' Grady, there is no better feeling in the world than getting someone their job back.

The first rule is : Do not let HR and Management intimidate you, they are usually woefully inept and ignorant when they are not dealing with intimidated workers.
Also if you are in meetings with them never nod your head, even if they are talking sense, rare I know, they take this as a sign of approval.
Always take notes and always have witnesses, never let them corner you as this is always seen by your members as collusion, however innocent.
Your members are who you are there for, and as ViolentPanda says above you will have pisstakers, do not let them control the meetings or groups, you will find that other members are as dismayed by them as you will be, always have someone you can rely on.
Depending on your union you will find a wealth of support and literature from your regional or district office, as well as your local officials. They are there to support you as well as the membership. Use them.

One of the worst pieces of discrimination came along when companies changed from Personnel Departments to Human Resources, it's a ploy to mask the person and turn them into a resource, your fellow workers are people, not machines and have feelings.
I hope you have a pleasant experience and have lots of little victories.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2016)

One thing I will say to *anyone* thinking of becoming a union rep: It's knackering (you'll usually end up using about 20 hours a week minimum keeping on top of your caseload, meetings etc), but worth it because you occasionally achieve something that means a subtle shift of power to the workers in the workplace.
And, if you're a mean bastard like I was, the sight of scrunched-up, unhappy management faces contrasted with happy worker faces was a sheer delight to me.


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## Lord Camomile (Mar 9, 2016)

I'll almost certainly mention it again nearer the time, but if you're interested in union stuff and are in London I'm organising a screening of Pride on Wed, 27 April, followed by a discussion about solidarity among unions and activist groups.

Just had Mike Jackson (who is one of the people Pride is about) confirm, and hoping to get someone from TUC and BMA there too.

I'm also looking on getting a free monthly union film club set up for my branch, which will be accessible to people outside of our branch too. Educate the masses! 

e2a: whoops - should probably mention the Pride screening on 27 Apr will be in New Cross


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## Lord Camomile (Mar 15, 2016)

Does anyone have any experience setting up workplace/members' meetings*? I'm hoping to establish something in my dept., one hour every six weeks linked to our branch committee meetings, so in theory we'll have the members' meeting a few days before each committee meeting.

Although there are three unions here, I have recently discovered there is no official recognition agreement, or it's been lost, or something (  ), so there's nothing we can point to and say "says here we're allowed to meet during paid work hours".

Are union meetings during paid hours a pipe dream? According to ACAS we're supposed to be granted time off for members' meetings, but there's no statutory requirement for it to be paid time off.






*I swear the fluctuating terminology feels like it's going to continuously be a barrier to participation


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 15, 2016)

You don't have a Union agreement then Lord Camomile ?

We are in the process of looking at ours, my first bit of Union work really... It's been the same way for 15 years and it's shit...overly ambiguous in parts and no clarity at all about how grievances should be approached/reported/addressed/responded to etc..


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## Lord Camomile (Mar 15, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You don't have a Union agreement then Lord Camomile ?


Not officially, apparently  It's all a bit unclear, I honestly don't know if there was one and everyone's lost it, or it was never officially drafted and everyone just assumed or what... Hang on, I'll see if I can find the wording from my secretary.



Rutita1 said:


> We are in the process of looking at ours, my first bit of Union work really... It's been the same way for 15 years and it's shit...overly ambiguous in parts and no clarity at all about how grievances should be approached/reported/addressed/responded to etc..


That's some weighty stuff! Part of me would love to get my teeth into something like that, the other part thinks "no fucking thank you!".

How are you finding it?


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 15, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Not officially, apparently  It's all a bit unclear, I honestly don't know if there was one and everyone's lost it, or it was never officially drafted and everyone just assumed or what... Hang on, I'll see if I can find the wording from my secretary.



Apparently ours was/is just a standard template from a by-gone decade 



> That's some weighty stuff! Part of me would love to get my teeth into something like that, the other part thinks "no fucking thank you!".
> 
> How are you finding it?



We are calling a member meeting to pick the life out of it 

Then we will address it in the JNC.

Nothings happened yet!


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## Lord Camomile (Mar 15, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> We are calling a member meeting to pick the life out of it


Heh, lots of red ink 



Rutita1 said:


> Apparently ours was/is just a standard template from a by-gone decade


Yup, just checked and apparently there's been drafts (the last was "a few years back"!) but it was never agreed by the unions, so we all just work on the basis of what is and isn't reasonable, apparently.


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## Lord Camomile (Mar 31, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> I'll almost certainly mention it again nearer the time, but if you're interested in union stuff and are in London I'm organising a screening of Pride on Wed, 27 April, followed by a discussion about solidarity among unions and activist groups.
> 
> Just had Mike Jackson (who is one of the people Pride is about) confirm, and hoping to get someone from TUC and BMA there too.
> 
> ...


Facebook event now published. Please think kindly on us and spread the word  Really excited about this one and would be great to meet some urbanites there if anyone can make it


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## quimcunx (Mar 31, 2016)

Our shop meetings used to be in work hours but at some point they changed to lunch times. Not sure why. 

I'd be glad of quiet times rutita.  Can't say I enjoyed my stints as rep during difficult times. I don't really enjoy the cut and thrust or complex situations when no one is happy and satisfactory resolutions thin on the ground.


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## Lord Camomile (Mar 31, 2016)

quimcunx said:


> complex situations when no one is happy and satisfactory resolutions thin on the ground.


I think this is going to be one of the aspects that frustrates/upsets me most - I never like it when there's not a proper solution, which is why I don't like a lot of life


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## purenarcotic (Mar 31, 2016)

I am the rep at work but it feels pointless tbh. We don't have a lot of members, it's hard to persuade anyone to join - at one point we had more managers than staff. The local branch are crap and never call back so I end up using ACAS all the time. I'm not very busy thankfully.


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## mhendo (Apr 8, 2016)

I'm a member of a union here in California. I teach history in the California State University system, a collection of 23 campuses that constitute the largest four-year university system in the United States, with about 460,000 students.

Our faculty union, the California Faculty Association (CFA), is pretty good. It's not as strong as i would like, but the leaders are committed and it does a good job, especially considering the pretty widespread hostility to organized labor in the United States. Still, the past seven or eight years since the global financial crisis have been tough, with promised pay raises failing to materialize and, in 2009-2010, even a one-off, one-year 10% pay cut due to the budget crisis.

When the university reneged on promised pay raises in 2008-2009, they said that we would get the raises when the budget crisis was over and the state restored prior levels of funding. Then in the last couple of years, the state has restored funding to the university, but when we asked the university administration to fulfill their promises regarding raises, they told us to take a hike.

The last year has seen extensive negotiations between the CFA and the university, with the university administration refusing to budge even an inch. The union voted a few months ago to authorize a strike, but we were not legally allowed to strike until the negotiation process set by the collective bargaining agreement was complete. The last stage of that process was a fact-finder's report in which an arbitrator, chosen by the university, announced that the university had the money and should deliver on the pay raises. The university said "Fuck you," so the union set a date for a week-long strike, starting on April 13 (this coming Wednesday).

The university had been blustering about the strike, saying that it wouldn't disrupt operations, but it became pretty clear that the vast majority of faculty were on board and would walk out. 

Two days ago, the university came back to the table, and just this morning the union and the university announced a tentative agreement which gave us just about everything we had been asking for:

5% raise effective June 30, 2016.
2% raise effective July 1, 2016
3.5% raise effective July 1, 2017

Also, 2.65% service increases for eligible faculty, and some other longer-term changes.

So, 10.5% over the next year. Good job by the union. Strike averted.

The increases mean that, taking inflation into account, we'll be almost back to where we were before the financial crisis. These days, breaking even qualifies as progress, I suppose.


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## crossthebreeze (Apr 10, 2016)

I've just joined Unite in their Unite for Our Society (Community, Youth Work, and Not for Profit) Sector.  I work for two small charities - neither recognise a union, and i don't think there's any other individual members.  In both jobs, I work part of the time with hazardous tools, including petrol-driven machines, and much of the other time supervising volunteers (sometimes to use sharp tools), including vulnerable adults, and working with children and young people - so I reckon joining a union is worth it even as an insurance policy if nothing else.

One problem so far is that Unite doesn't seem to be able to cope with someone who has more than one job - the forms, the sector questionnaire, and even the members portal only have space for one job (and I popped into the regional office to ask how to fill in the application form or if I should join part time twice  - they seemed confused but in the end told me to put down the part-time job with the longest hours/most secure contract but tick the full time box and then give someone a ring when my membership came through).  Luckily both jobs are similar roles in the same sector.  I think they need to get this sorted, because there's an increasing number of people with more than one employer and/or insecure contract and hours!

If the branch/sector/regional office seem supportive, I'm actually quite keen to get my colleagues to join too, as well as some of the other people I know who work for small voluntary organisations - as funding cuts mean most of our jobs have increased in insecurity.  I also want to link with council workers who are members of the union, and the Unite Community membership, as I'm concerned about the voluntary sector being used politically to support cuts to services, and (though it hasn't happened in the organisations I work for so far) implement workfare.  I'll have to suss things out first though.


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 11, 2016)

The charity I work for doesn't recognise union either and non of my co-workers are in a union as far as I know. A lot of us are on min or near min wage.

crossthebreeze I'd be interested to hear how you get on with encouraging others to join and how supportive Unite seem to you.

I'm with Unite too. They keep sending me emails for their 'faith workers' branch which must be a mistake - 'community / not for profit' sounds more appropriate, though I haven't bothered telling them yet.  Apart from paying my dues I haven't had much to do with them yet and don't really know what they do or how to be involved.


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## Lord Camomile (Apr 11, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> don't really know what they do or how to be involved.


This seems to be such a problem generally. Or at least it's certainly my experience where I work - massive lack of easy to access/understand info about getting more involved. Working on changing that, but I've got to understand it all first!


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## quimcunx (Apr 11, 2016)

crossthebreeze although I've never been to one myself  I think going to your local branch meeting would be a good idea for you.

Unite do a new reps course that is geared towards recruiting your workmates too.


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## belboid (Apr 11, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> They keep sending me emails for their 'faith workers' branch which must be a mistake - 'community / not for profit' sounds more appropriate, though I haven't bothered telling them yet.


If you work for a 'faith based' charity, it would be the relevant branch, even if the faith doesn't really show up in the work you do.


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 11, 2016)

belboid said:


> If you work for a 'faith based' charity, it would be the relevant branch, even if the faith doesn't really show up in the work you do.


I do work for a charity that is owned by some religious people. I'm not a religious person and my job/role doesn't involve faith beyond hoping they might pay me.  All branch meetings seem to be about vicars, CoE etc so if those are the meetings I'm supposed to go to, then _heaven help me_.


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## Sprocket. (Apr 11, 2016)

Would the meetings be held at an olive branch?


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 11, 2016)

Weird synchronisity.  I've just got an email about a course to become a rep.


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## crossthebreeze (Apr 11, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> I do work for a charity that is owned by some religious people. I'm not a religious person and my job/role doesn't involve faith beyond hoping they might pay me.  All branch meetings seem to be about vicars, CoE etc so if those are the meetings I'm supposed to go to, then _heaven help me_.


I've just googled the faith workers branch - even their LGBT campaign is about LGBT Anglican clergy!
If I find out anything of use about the Unite for Our Society section i'll pass it on here.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 11, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Weird synchronisity.  I've just got an email about a course to become a rep.



Do it! You'd be great at it.


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 11, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Do it! You'd be great at it.


but I don't know anything about unions and have never met a member of my union. I've no idea about what is involved or what the union even does. Sounds very isolated, too isolated for me.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 11, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> but I don't know anything about unions and have never met a member of my union. I've no idea about what is involved or what the union even does. Sounds very isolated, too isolated for me.




It's a world of stuff, just waiting for you and your hats!


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## Lord Camomile (Apr 24, 2016)

Latest 'final' offer from management in negotiations on improving our London Weighting is an annual increase of £200 for the next three years. Given we haven't had an increase for 11 years that'll be £600 over 14 years by the end, to say nothing of the lack of increase in basic pay.

I am naturally quite doubtful this reflects the increase in living costs over the past 14 years. Is there somewhere to get credible data on the cost of living in London over that time period? I really, really want to demonstrate the disparity between reality and what they're offering.

The sad truth is I think we have a strong argument but are making it from a weak position. I'm hoping if we can make the argument to our members and potential members then we can encourage them to get a bit more active. No idea if it will work, but worth a try.


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2016)

We've had 16 new members join this month, four from my team


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## Pickman's model (May 20, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Latest 'final' offer from management in negotiations on improving our London Weighting is an annual increase of £200 for the next three years. Given we haven't had an increase for 11 years that'll be £600 over 14 years by the end, to say nothing of the lack of increase in basic pay.
> 
> I am naturally quite doubtful this reflects the increase in living costs over the past 14 years. Is there somewhere to get credible data on the cost of living in London over that time period? I really, really want to demonstrate the disparity between reality and what they're offering.
> 
> The sad truth is I think we have a strong argument but are making it from a weak position. I'm hoping if we can make the argument to our members and potential members then we can encourage them to get a bit more active. No idea if it will work, but worth a try.


see my pm


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> see my pm


On it


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2016)

And if anyone's in central London on Tuesday:


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## Sue (May 20, 2016)

Have you seen this? Know it's got a union theme but thought it was a pretty rubbish film -- thought it was like a French Carry On film when I saw it... (Find Ozon's films very variable -- some I love, others (like this) I pretty much hate.)


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2016)

Sue said:


> Have you seen this? Know it's got a union theme but thought it was a pretty rubbish film -- thought it was like a French Carry On film when I saw it... (Find Ozon's films very variable -- some I love, others (like this) I pretty much hate.)


Yeah, I screened it at my other film club  I know it's rather light but we thought we'd go with something fun for the first screening. I can appreciate it's not to everyone's tastes but it went down really well at the film club, audience was laughing throughout and very chattery about it at the end.


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## Sue (May 20, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Yeah, I screened it at my other film club  I know it's rather light but we thought we'd go with something fun for the first screening. I can appreciate it's not to everyone's tastes but it went down really well at the film club, audience was laughing throughout and very chattery about it at the end.


Hope they like it.


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2016)

Sue said:


> Hope they like it.


I think it's just going to be me and the branch secretary anyway


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## eatmorecheese (Jun 1, 2016)

I became a rep 18 months ago and rapidly became assistant branch secretary six months ago  (cos no one else, apparently, wanted to do it). I have two days per week facility time and am balancing the needs of my substantive job with the high level of need of individual members.

Our finances are a bit shot and we may have to make the secretary we employ redundant because of this. I'm pissed off with the state the branch was left in when the last branch secretary retired. We have a fair few reps, but they often lack confidence in their abilities and need a lot more support. We've successfully applied for funding to employ two caseworkers to cover schools/academies and private employers, as our facility time is granted purely to represent council officers, so that's a bonus. They both start next week.

We're fire-fighting, to be honest. I'd love time to develop proper strategies, move this office away from cumbersome paper files, have a proper case management system in place etc, but we're just about coping with the case work, the restructure processes, school academisation and other day-to-day stuff and this leaves little time for forward planning. 

It's been a baptism of fire, and no fucking mistake.

Still, when you get a victory, there's nothing like it. One of our disabled members achieved a 65k payout at tribunal for discrimination the other week.  

friendofdorothy do it! I'm sure you'd be great!


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## friendofdorothy (Jun 1, 2016)

eatmorecheese said:


> I became a rep 18 months ago and rapidly became assistant branch secretary six months ago  (cos no one else, apparently, wanted to do it). I have two days per week facility time and am balancing the needs of my substantive job with the high level of need of individual members.
> 
> Our finances are a bit shot and we may have to make the secretary we employ redundant because of this. I'm pissed off with the state the branch was left in when the last branch secretary retired. We have a fair few reps, but they often lack confidence in their abilities and need a lot more support. We've successfully applied for funding to employ two caseworkers to cover schools/academies and private employers, as our facility time is granted purely to represent council officers, so that's a bonus. They both start next week.
> 
> ...


Why? As I said:


friendofdorothy said:


> but I don't know anything about unions and have never met a member of my union. I've no idea about what is involved or what the union even does. Sounds very isolated, too isolated for me.


 and I've still not met another member of my union.


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## eatmorecheese (Jun 1, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Why? As I said:
> and I've still not met another member of my union.



Fair enough, really. It probably seems pretty daunting if there is no support structure around you. 

Some unions look for 'workplace contacts', who don't represent members but are a point of contact for passing issues up to the region or the local branch. I don't know where you work or in what field, but if there are no other members in your workplace then recruiting members would be a start?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 9, 2016)

FFS


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 9, 2016)

Been offered full time release. Bit apprehensive, huge move for me being out of my regular workplace & 100% into a union facilitating role!

What's Urban say?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 9, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Been offered full time release. Bit apprehensive, huge move for me being out of my regular workplace & 100% into a union facilitating role!
> 
> What's Urban say?


Depends....what will this actually mean for you, where you are work wise?

List the pros and cons as you see them for us ?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 9, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> FFS
> 
> 
> View attachment 88249


What?!?!?  Ouch!


----------



## belboid (Jun 9, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Been offered full time release. Bit apprehensive, huge move for me being out of my regular workplace & 100% into a union facilitating role!
> 
> What's Urban say?


In principle, I think one shouldn't get more than 50%, so you don't become detached from the membership. But when such release is under attack, it should be defended 100%. And if they think you're up to it and you're up for it, bloody good luck.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 9, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Depends....what will this actually mean for you, where you are work wise?
> 
> List the pros and cons as you see them for us ?



I did actually make a pro's & con's list today! Need to speak to Branch Sec tomorrow to tie up a few issues that I have, so I won't list them at the mo, as it's quite personal. But what I will say, I can't be climbing fucking trees with my back problems anymore.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 9, 2016)

belboid said:


> In principle, I think one shouldn't get more than 50%, so you don't become detached from the membership. But when such release is under attack, it should be defended 100%. And if they think you're up to it and you're up for it, bloody good luck.



Oh I won't be detached from the membership by any fucking means! If owt, I'll be thrust 500% into it!  But, full time release is under attack, & one facilitating post has already gone. Mine (if I take it) could go in 18 months time when next reviewed by Council.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 9, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> What?!?!?  Ouch!



Fun with restructuring. 

Was ok though


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 9, 2016)

"Restructuring" - I fuckin' hate that word!


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 9, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> "Restructuring" - I fuckin' hate that word!



Well yes but we can't _say_ "class warfare" can we? At least not in the actual meeting.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 10, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well yes but we can't _say_ "class warfare" can we? At least not in the actual meeting.



Oh I dunno, I'd be fuckin tempted.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 10, 2016)

Had a lot to think about today, probably more negatives than positives tbh, so I've done the right thing & declined the position. One full timer would have been a massive undertaking, & hugely stressful.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 10, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Had a lot to think about today, probably more negatives than positives tbh, so I've done the right thing & declined the position. One full timer would have been a massive undertaking, & hugely stressful.



Fair play. I think that probably is the right decision.


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## Lord Camomile (Jul 30, 2016)

The higher education pay dispute has gone to a ballot, which will most likely result in strike action.

My branch has usually been pretty quiet and not altogether organised this front, but I'd like to change that this year. Are there any guides/sites for advice or tips on planning and organising?

There's a UNISON guide on their website but it's from 2009


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## Miss-Shelf (Jul 30, 2016)

My union reps have been made compulsory redundant in an attack on unions


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## Lord Camomile (Jul 30, 2016)

Miss-Shelf said:


> My union reps have been made compulsory redundant in an attack on unions


Fucking hell 

Are there any next steps, or can the branch not do much?


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Fucking hell
> 
> Are there any next steps, or can the branch not do much?



The branch should be able to take it to law, if the justification(s) for compulsory redundancy aren't watertight.

That doesn't help those being made redundant or those being left without representation in the meantime, though.


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## Miss-Shelf (Jul 31, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The branch should be able to take it to law, if the justification(s) for compulsory redundancy aren't watertight.
> 
> That doesn't help those being made redundant or those being left without representation in the meantime, though.


The national exec are involved 
But fighting all if this is uphill struggle


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2016)

Miss-Shelf said:


> The national exec are involved
> But fighting all if this is uphill struggle



The national officers will be well-aware that if they *don't* fight it, then they'll see a flood of similar spuriously-justified redundancies though, so it's good that they're not doing a Bill Morris and just letting it happen.


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## Looby (Jul 31, 2016)

I'm a support worker in an organisation that supports and houses very vulnerable and often challenging clients. When I started I asked who the union rep was and was told there wasn't one and HR couldn't even tell me which unions I could join. 

This worries me because of the job we do, staff are physically and verbally attacked and there's always the potential for complaints against staff. I think everyone should join a union but particularly those who could need Union/legal protection if something went wrong at work. 

I've joined Unison and there are a couple of people I know of who are members but I doubt there's many. 

I was a very active rep in my last job and was branch organiser for 8 years but I really can't get involved to that level now. I'm a relief worker in a very busy and unpredictable service plus I'm starting uni in September so it will be a very part-time job during term time and not my long term career. I keep talking myself in and out of contacting my unison branch and asking about a recruitment campaign/representation but I don't want to get sucked in here. 

Has anyone here ever tried to get a workplace unionised and active?


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## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2016)

I've been asked to consider joining our union committee as a member. Any thing I should be aware of? I'm having a meeting with a current committee member tomorrow to find out more.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I've been asked to consider joining our union committee as a member. Any thing I should be aware of? I'm having a meeting with a current committee member tomorrow to find out more.



Be aware that however much time the other committee members tell you business takes, it'll be longer! Also be aware that last person in makes the tea until a new victim member joins. 

Oh, and the usual caveat that the more involved/the higher up a union hierarchy you are, the more the bosses will either smarm you, or monster you.


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## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2016)

Cheers VP 


ViolentPanda said:


> Be aware that however much time the other committee members tell you business takes, it'll be longer! Also be aware that last person in makes the tea until a new victim member joins.
> 
> Oh, and the usual caveat that the more involved/the higher up a union hierarchy you are, the more the bosses will either smarm you, or monster you.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 2, 2016)

Hello thread! 

A little light reading for a Friday afternoon?

_*Research Paper - Accompaniment and representation in workplace in workp lac e discipline and grievance*_

http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/d/...n_wplace_D_G-accessible-version-July-2011.pdf

Feel free to link to union related topic/reports/articles that you might come across too.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2016)

Today I need to do a bit of research into settlement agreements (formerly compromise agreements).

http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/o/a/Settlement_agreements_(the_Acas_Guide)JULY2013.pdf

Only 88 pages.


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## Sprocket. (Sep 6, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Today I need to do a bit of research into settlement agreements (formerly compromise agreements).
> 
> http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/o/a/Settlement_agreements_(the_Acas_Guide)JULY2013.pdf
> 
> Only 88 pages.



I applaud your tenacity and dedication to the cause.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> I applaud your tenacity and dedication to the cause.



Ermmmmmm please don't... 88 pages will certainly hurt


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## Sprocket. (Sep 6, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Ermmmmmm please don't... 88 pages will certainly hurt



Having spent time on many ACAS courses and reading agreements  I fully understand.


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## catinthehat (Sep 6, 2016)

I have been in various unions for nearly 40 years and in most have held a TU role.  Some points I think might be relevant:

- facility time - you may or may not be entitled to it, get it in writing and check with the Union not just the employer as there may be statutory allowances for various things like H and S, conferences, training etc.
- get all the training you can
- if possible go to regional and national meetings and conference as it will tell you an awful lot about your union and who are good or not good allies not to mention the open or sometimes secret groups within the union and their agendas.  Sometimes the inner workings of the union are as conflict ridden as the relationships between employers and unions/workers
- be prepared for most of your members to treat the union as an insurance policy for themselves and have no understanding of or support for the notion of collective action or democracy
- be prepared for most of your members to be totally disinterested in the union apart from on an issue that directly impacts on them, and then be prepared for them to swallow the management line even if it is going to clearly have an adverse impact on their terms and conditions or even job itself
- know every policy back to front and pre empt problems by getting specifics on any grey areas
- get a definition of what management mean by consultation - often it is 'we told you' 
- if you are responsible for personal cases try and get an agreement for any that are found in favor of the staff member or that are dropped by the employer that your time spent will be added to facility time.  
- ensure you know what your role is and where it starts and ends and have the relevant union full timers or national bods on speed dial
- be prepared to find out that the jolly bonhomie displayed by some managers with their matey small talk and bearing of Quality Street at Xmas is a front and they care about their staff less than their bonus or progression.
- find someone that is good at accounts if you are not 
- if its a public body there is a lot of information that should be freely available but often is not
- get the minutes of all meetings you are entitled to see - you can often join up the dots from these
- never agree to anything on the spot or informally or in unminuted meetings
- double check in meetings that any points you want recorded have been put in the minutes.  
- double check the above has been done when you get your copy

You will know if you are doing a good job if they try and buy you off with a promotion or move or more interesting work.  If you fail to respond to this be prepared to be cast as a rebellious loon or some form of anarchist that does not understand the 'real world'  bla bla.

For the most part it is a thankless but highly needed role.  There may be jolly camaraderie at conferences or campaigns to keep your spirits up.  You can also imagine how things would be if we had strong unions, active members and decent reps and you can be at least one of those things.

Power to your elbow and I wish you luck and good fortune.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 17, 2016)

catinthehat said:


> I have been in various unions for nearly 40 years and in most have held a TU role.  Some points I think might be relevant:
> 
> - facility time - you may or may not be entitled to it, get it in writing and check with the Union not just the employer as there may be statutory allowances for various things like H and S, conferences, training etc.
> - get all the training you can
> ...



catinthehat

Amazing advice!  Thanks for taking the time to post that.... Some points have already rang true/loud and clear even though I am merely months into this. 

Can you clarify/expand on this point please? I want to be sure of what you mean. 



> - find someone that is good at accounts if you are not



My weekend reading is this:

http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/1/1/Redundancy-handling-accessible-version.pdf

(obviously printed out at work )
Relevant to something possibly brewing at our place. So cross referencing with internal documents at this stage.


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## catinthehat (Sep 17, 2016)

Things like accounts not being qualified or auditors picking things up can give early signals that things are wrong.  You might also pick up things such as pay 'cheats' - for example claims that management only got 1% pay rise but then sneaky additional bonus payments that have not been announced, perks like private healthcare, or the distribution of expenses, training budgets and so on.  There might be some figures that seem out of whack and you can ask for clarification.  If its a public organisation the accounts etc should be a matter of public record so there should be no issue with access to them - I'm not sure this is the case with other types of organisations as I have only ever worked in the public sector but we used to pick up a lot of things via the accounts.


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## equationgirl (Dec 10, 2016)

I 've taken the plunge and told them I'll do it. I've asked that a couple of points ate checked though as we're about to start a redundancy cycle and I want to be able to support staff through it if I can.


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 10, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I 've taken the plunge and told them I'll do it. I've asked that a couple of points ate checked though as we're about to start a redundancy cycle and I want to be able to support staff through it if I can.


 
hope it goes well

although bear in mind that if your own job is one of those that's at risk, there's a chance that some people may think that you are too close to what's happening and may have personal motives as well.

and as i think i've said on this thread (or a similar one) before, don't be afraid of not knowing the answer to a question a member asks you - it's better to say "i need to refer this one to branch officer" or whatever than to say what you think might be the right answer and get in to a tangle.


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## equationgirl (Dec 10, 2016)

thanks Puddy_Tat that's good advice. I'll know by next Friday if I'm completely safe, none of the other union reps are safe either.


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 10, 2016)

catinthehat said:


> - be prepared to find out that the jolly bonhomie displayed by some managers with their matey small talk and bearing of Quality Street at Xmas is a front and they care about their staff less than their bonus or progression.



THIS


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## equationgirl (Dec 11, 2016)

It's OK, I already have a distrust of management


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## Winot (Dec 11, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> thanks Puddy_Tat that's good advice. I'll know by next Friday if I'm completely safe, none of the other union reps are safe either.



Good luck


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## equationgirl (Dec 11, 2016)

Winot said:


> Good luck


Thank you - I appreciate it.


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## Ms T (Dec 17, 2016)

Management 0 Me 1


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## Miss-Shelf (Dec 17, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Thank you - I appreciate it.


Hope it's been good news


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## equationgirl (Dec 18, 2016)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Hope it's been good news


My role is ok but am pretty shell-shocked by some of the selections to be honest. Will be checking in with various people tomorrow to see how they are.


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## equationgirl (Dec 18, 2016)

And thanks Miss-Shelf this round of redundancy has been brutal.

My mother just sent a text saying 'keep your head down'. It's like we've never met


----------



## StoneRoad (Dec 18, 2016)

equationgirl - 'tis always the workers and rarely the managers who suffer when the shadow of redundancy looms ... hope everybody you need/prefer/know is OK, if you see want I mean.

Been on the rough end of this process too many times, myself. So I know how it feels. \although when the interior designers went to the wall, I was a) on holiday and b) kept on right to the bitter end as the partners thought the bank would relent, but the 2008 crash was in full swing ...


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## Miss-Shelf (Dec 18, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> My role is ok but am pretty shell-shocked by some of the selections to be honest. Will be checking in with various people tomorrow to see how they are.


Sometimes the strange selections are down to design 

But I think they're often down to lots of people in the chain making decisions based on panic, incompetence, fear of counter claims and lack of strategy

Hope it's not too awful this week
(PS what a flipping time to announce that)


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## Lord Camomile (Jan 23, 2017)

Our outsourced cleaners are striking on Thursday and Friday, and there's a question about crossing picket lines.

The question is mainly "will our employer discipline us for not crossing", but for many people it'll also be about losing two days' pay. Many of them cross when it's a dispute directly related to them, letalone something like this.

With such a weak connection between members and union I feel like I can't go all militant on them, and will have to just focus on before/after work and breaks.


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## Lord Camomile (Jan 23, 2017)

Hmm...

Ran off a list of members in my (labyrinthine) department, and there are a handful of managers on there, one quite high up. Would including them tip our hand about crossing picket lines? Does it matter?


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## Lord Camomile (Jan 24, 2017)

Just heard (my branch sec is working late!  ) that HR says they expect all employees to attend work as usual, and there is a threat of disciplinary action for refusing to cross the picket line.

Well, fuck...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 24, 2017)

What does that all mean? To be clear! Any questions in there?

In personal news... Another JNC last week...we raised concerns about a particular manager's communication style or lack of it,  plus what seems  to be a shift in organisation valuing of worker insight/expertise  as opposed to senior manager overview.... One of the SLT team has clearly not been able to acknowledge that I exist today.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 24, 2017)

Lord Camomile

difficult.

since (if i understand it right) this dispute is between a different employer and their staff, you're not (from a legal perspective) involved in this dispute.  so if you refuse to cross the picket line, i have a feeling (subject to the usual disclaimers) that you'd not taking part in lawful industrial action and therefore wouldn't have the legal protections involved.

there's a bit about this sort of thing on PCS website (more from the perspective of the union whose dispute it is) here



> However, the law says workers who are not involved in the dispute should not be interfered with in going about their job or obstructed from going to work. PCS is producing stickers of support for the public and other sympathisers to wear and you can still offer them leaflets about the strike, petitions to sign etc.


 
has your branch talked to the union / branch that's going to be on strike, to see what their views are, and how you can offer support in a way that's legal?

not sure how it's worked on the railways recently where different grades of staff (station / drivers / guards) are in separate disputes.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 24, 2017)

The weird bit is we _are _the same branch, which is why I thought we'd be protected legally, even if it's a different employer.

We've definitely talked about other ways to support them, just surprised we're expected to cross.


Rutita1 said:


> What does that all mean? To be clear! Any questions in there?


Sorry, web forum equivalent of thinking out loud, but thankfully Puddy_Tat was able to make something of it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 24, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> The weird bit is we _are _the same branch, which is why I thought we'd be protected legally, even if it's a different employer.
> 
> We've definitely talked about other ways to support them, just surprised we're expected to cross.
> Sorry, web forum equivalent of thinking out loud, but thankfully Puddy_Tat was able to make something of it.


dunno.

legally, dispute is with a specific employer, if i remember right.

there have been a few disputes like this recently - outsourced cleaners / catering staff.

rmt with train cleaners on first great western, cleaners at john lewis shops (think they are uvw) and some government buildings.

don't think in any case the directly employed staff have come out as well, but not sure what advice has been about picket lines.

i've managed to avoid this personally - as part time / semi freelance i managed to adjust my days to avoid strike days.  in other job, it's been different union, different job group, different building.  my union advised to work normally and not cover for striking grades, but can't remember what (if any) advice re picket lines at sites where both groups work


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## Lord Camomile (Jan 24, 2017)

Puddy_Tat said:


> dunno.
> 
> legally, dispute is with a specific employer, if i remember right.
> 
> ...


No worries, appreciate the thoughts. I've got back to my branch sec asking her advice.

I always thought it was "don't cross", simple as, but seems like there are more subtleties than I was aware of...


----------



## mauvais (Jan 24, 2017)

Quick question - I've been in Unite for a decade but possibly aside from the very beginning, never worked anywhere with union recognition. Such is the nature of software engineering. Now, I might be moving, still as a software engineer, to a new job at a large broadcaster that probably does have some arrangement. What would you do in this circumstance? e.g. how do you work out what the right union to be in is, how do you transfer if necessary, etc?


----------



## october_lost (Jan 24, 2017)

You need to check your contract particulars. If there is an agreement it will mention what union can represent you in hearings and meetings. You can still be an individual member of a non-recognised union, but they won't have the same sort of entitlement.


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## Guineveretoo (Jan 24, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> No worries, appreciate the thoughts. I've got back to my branch sec asking her advice.
> 
> I always thought it was "don't cross", simple as, but seems like there are more subtleties than I was aware of...


Unfortunately, the anti trade union legislation which the "New Labour" government failed to repeal means that refusing to cross a picket line constitutes industrial action.

Legally, if you are a member of another trade union which is not part of that strike, or a member of the same trade union but not in the dispute, then refusing to cross a picket line is unlawful industrial action because it would be classed as secondary action.

If your business faces industrial action - GOV.UK

It is a bastard, but there it is.

Unfortunately, the public sector has clamped down on this in recent years, and many have changed their policy to make clear that they will consider disciplinary action against anyone who is not officially part of the trade dispute refusing to cross the picket line.

An anomaly in the law, which is not relevant to your position, but might be to some of the cleaners, is that someone who is not a member of any trade union, but is part of the dispute, is protected as if they were a member of the union taking the action, so they can take lawful industrial action. However, if they are members of a different union, even if they are on the same contract as the others, it is classed as secondary action.

This is something which the civil service spotted and has been exploiting in order to divide the unions, I reckon.

They are mostly all bastards.

HTH


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jan 24, 2017)

mauvais said:


> Quick question - I've been in Unite for a decade but possibly aside from the very beginning, never worked anywhere with union recognition. Such is the nature of software engineering. Now, I might be moving, still as a software engineer, to a new job at a large broadcaster that probably does have some arrangement. What would you do in this circumstance? e.g. how do you work out what the right union to be in is, how do you transfer if necessary, etc?


I would strongly urge you to join the recognised union, if there is one, as they are the ones who will be speaking to management on your behalf. 

Ask your manager, or look on the intranet.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 24, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> Unfortunately, the anti trade union legislation which the "New Labour" government failed to repeal means that refusing to cross a picket line constitutes industrial action.
> 
> Legally, if you are a member of another trade union which is not part of that strike, or a member of the same trade union but not in the dispute, then refusing to cross a picket line is unlawful industrial action because it would be classed as secondary action.
> 
> ...


Ah, fer fuck's sake! 

Cheers for the thoughts and info though, really appreciated  As it happens my branch sec literally just got back to me as I was typing, saying that it would be considered breach of contract and potential dismissal. So, uh, nope


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jan 24, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> Ah, fer fuck's sake!
> 
> Cheers for the thoughts and info though, really appreciated  As it happens my branch sec literally just got back to me as I was typing, saying that it would be considered breach of contract and potential dismissal. So, uh, nope


yeah, secondary action is a breach of contract.

It used to be one that was overlooked but, as I say, employers, particularly in the civil service and the wider public service, have clamped down on it recently.

We tried to challenge it, legally, a few years ago, while there was still a Labour Government (supposedly) but got nowhere, and then the Bastard Coalition got in and we gave up! As well as seeking to get the Act repealed, we were trying to demonstrate that the anomaly to which I referred was not what was intended by the legislation, but the advice we got was that it would be expensive, and not worth it, since it was unlikely to succeed.

I lay the blame mostly at the Labour Government's door, since they could have repealed this and, although the Bastard Coalition or the Bastard Tories would have sought to reinstated it, it might not have been their priority and it would have been different and might actually have been better. It can't really be much worse, in terms of the definition of secondary industrial action.

The right to take lawful industrial action is part of our basic human rights under European legislation, and under the Human Rights Act, both of which are currently under threat.

So I guess it could get worse!


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 24, 2017)

I knew about secondary action, but I really didn't think this counted. I thought, clearly naively, that if there was a picket line that changed things and you could legitimately refuse to cross, and "secondary action" was more about secondary strikes.

Learning process...


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jan 24, 2017)

Although it is also worth noting that the TUC did not support the call to repeal the anti trade union legislation, as it was felt that some of it was helpful. 

i find it difficult even to type that, as it undermines my belief in the collective strength of trade unions, but the TUC Congress used to debate the repeal of anti-trade union legislation every year, when there was a Labour Government, and every year it was defeated. 

I can't say that the trade unions are all bastards, but it certainly feels like some of them are/were!


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jan 24, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> I knew about secondary action, but I really didn't think this counted. I thought, clearly naively, that if there was a picket line that changed things and you could legitimately refuse to cross, and "secondary action" was more about secondary strikes.
> 
> Learning process...


It was part of the legislation which is so fundamentally against trade unions, as it destroys the effectiveness of picket lines!  I remember the days when post office and other delivery vans wouldn't cross picket lines, and when many of the managers wouldn't cross, either, because they wanted to show support and solidarity. 

Picket lines were really good fun, as we felt we were achieving something even more than not being at work that day. 

And that is why the Bastards brought in the new law which made it "secondary action" to refuse to cross a picket line


----------



## october_lost (Jan 24, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> Legally, if you are a member of another trade union which is not part of that strike, or a member of the same trade union but not in the dispute, then refusing to cross a picket line is unlawful industrial action because it would be classed as secondary action.


I stopped being a rep about six months ago, but, my understanding is 1) HR and managers don't have access to union membership lists, unless you're paying dues through payroll 2) unions notify them which _areas of the business _they have members in, in the course of industrial action, 3) there is always the chance you can apply to join a union on the picket line.

Therefore, if the above is true, you have scope, as an individual, to participate in secondary action if your workplace/are of business is effected during industrial action, by a union you're able to join. In theory, if you're workplace is effected, you could go on 'strike' and not be a member of the union. This would only hit a snag if you let it be known you weren't a member, or management forced everyones hand into revealing their membership - which they tend to be reluctant to do.

I once refused to cross another unions picket. Although it didn't pan out too well, I learned most of this soon after


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## october_lost (Jan 24, 2017)

By way of intro...

I was a Unison rep in Higher Education in London until last year. I was quite active in my branch and with casework particularly, despite my relative inexperience prior to that. It was slow and painful, but I could sustain most of it because some of the other branch members were solid  I was broadly supportive of the Unison Left, although in retrospect I wish I could have done more outward looking stuff. 

I could deal with most of management nonsense, the single biggest problem I had deal was that narrowing space between union officials on one-hand and co-workers/union members taking the piss on the other-hand. I've had to deal with some grade A knobheads, which is a big recipe for burn-out


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jan 24, 2017)

october_lost said:


> I stopped being a rep about six months ago, but, my understanding is 1) HR and managers don't have access to union membership lists, unless you're paying dues through payroll 2) unions notify them which _areas of the business _they have members in, in the course of industrial action, 3) there is always the chance you can apply to join a union on the picket line.
> 
> Therefore, if the above is true, you have scope, as an individual, to participate in secondary action if your workplace/are of business is effected during industrial action, by a union you're able to join. In theory, if you're workplace is effected, you could go on 'strike' and not be a member of the union. This would only hit a snag if you let it be known you weren't a member, or management forced everyones hand into revealing their membership - which they tend to be reluctant to do.
> 
> I once refused to cross another unions picket. Although it didn't pan out too well, I learned most of this soon after


technically and legally, it doesn't matter whether you are a member of that union or not. So long as you are employed in one of the categories covered by the industrial action, you can take lawful industrial action whether or not you are a member of that union. So, in the case above, any cleaner, whether a member of the union taking action or not, would be able to take lawful industrial action and to be protected from dismissal or disciplinary action. And to have their wages stopped. 

The anomaly I mentioned only applies if, in this example, the cleaners are in more than one union, and the other union is not taking industrial action. 

Anyone other than a cleaner in this example who refuses to cross a picket line in this dispute, is deemed to be taking secondary industrial action, which is unlawful and can lead to disciplinary action and even dismissal.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2017)

Bump... A couple of Union related thoughts.

Has anyone here gone on from workplace rep to working at their local branch? If so how did you go about it and how was it?

Also...I've got my eye on this ACAS Mediation course
It's pricey though... Anyone done similar? How was it?


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## Guineveretoo (Aug 31, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Bump... A couple of Union related thoughts.
> 
> Has anyone here gone on from workplace rep to working at their local branch? If so how did you go about it and how was it?
> 
> ...


I started off as a workplace rep, progressed through working for my branch then my union, and have been a National Officer of a union since 1999. 

What do you need to know? 

I have not been on that mediation course, but I know others who have and who rate it. I guess it depends whether you will need to act as a mediator - if so, go on the course


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## Lord Camomile (Aug 31, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> I guess it depends whether you will need to act as a mediator


Wasn't until this point that I realised we were talking about mediation, not meditation 

I did think it was a bit of an odd course for ACAS to offer, but wellbeing and mindfulness are very in right now...


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## equationgirl (Sep 1, 2017)

The redundancy exercise was definitely a baptism of fire. There are cases going to tribunal, supported by the union. It was hard work but I learnt a lot.


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## Lord Camomile (Sep 15, 2017)

For Young Workers' Month we're looking to organise a film screening. Current front runner is The Divide, but while this is a very good film that raises a lot of issues, I'm not sure how much it talks directly to issues faced by young people today. Does anyone have any other suggestions for films that focus a bit more on issues facing those 27 and under?


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 15, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> I started off as a workplace rep, progressed through working for my branch then my union, and have been a National Officer of a union since 1999.
> 
> What do you need to know?
> 
> I have not been on that mediation course, but I know others who have and who rate it. I guess it depends whether you will need to act as a mediator - if so, go on the course



Guineveretoo Thanks for this reply...sorry I missed it, have been busy...

I suppose I am just curious about other people's progression routes from wp rep to working at the local branch...(considering my own future etc.)..also I like the look of that course and think it would be a useful bit of CPD...


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## Guineveretoo (Sep 15, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Guineveretoo Thanks for this reply...sorry I missed it, have been busy...
> 
> I suppose I am just curious about other people's progression routes from wp rep to working at the local branch...(considering my own future etc.)..also I like the look of that course and think it would be a useful bit of CPD...


In my case, it happened pretty quickly, as something I was particularly interested in was equal opportunities, so i asked who the EO Officer was and was told there wasn't one - did I want to take it on. So I did. 

It kind of went from there. 

It was all in my own time initially - I used up a lot of my annual leave on union stuff - but, after a while, I was taking on more and more stuff and I secured an agreement where I would work half time for the union and half time for the council. 

Then the Branch Secretary retired and there was no-one to take that on, so I did that, on top of the other union stuff I was doing, and became a full timer, still on release from the Council. 

I did that for about 5 years, I think. 10 years in total anyway, and then started applying for full time union positions.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 6, 2017)

Union people....have a look at this...a teacher friend of mine is talking about it over on FB....gonna use this as a opportunity to learn.

Obviously employers want to stop employees abusing the 'sickness abscence' as a way of avoiding legitimate capability issues but WTAF?...blanket-management-will-investigate-and-decide?


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## Guineveretoo (Oct 6, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Union people....have a look at this...a teacher friend of mine is talking about it over on FB....gonna use this as a opportunity to learn.
> 
> Obviously employers want to stop employees abusing the 'sickness abscence' as a way of avoiding legitimate capability issues but WTAF?...blanket-management-will-investigate-and-decide?


That is fucking outrageous! Is it being challenged?


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 6, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> That is fucking outrageous! Is it being challenged?




I can only go by my mates timelime convo...she can't name the school obviously so it isn't where she works....she has also said this:



> This London academy is encouraging all its workers to go on moneymarket.com to buy themselves health insurance as the school won’t pay them sick pay.



Everyone reading it is losing their shit obviously but I am interested in how this plays out and what statuatory law/rights stuff+  good pracitce advice can be and is used to counter such a blatant stitchup!


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## Riklet (Oct 19, 2017)

edit: I've started a new thread.  Tips, ideas, suggestions and ideas welcome there or by PM.


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 13, 2017)

Union people 

Are you a member of any official or unofficical union related meet up groups/networks?

Seems to me a great way to meet others involved in union bizniz, share thoughts and experiences, chew the fat on current issues etc....

Does such a thing exist for you/where you are?


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## Lord Camomile (Nov 13, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Union people
> 
> Are you a member of any official or unofficical union related meet up groups/networks?
> 
> ...


I've been trying to build some connections among London university branches; very early days yet.

Think these are more online than you're looking for, but might be useful to someone else:

unionreps.org.uk - forum, probably most similar to what you're after
tuceducation.org.uk - more about learning, but think you can still chat to others
climbingframe.unionlearn.org.uk - as above

There doesn't seem to be a whoooooole lot of union-based online activity, but I may just be looking in the wrong places.

Would definitely be interested in meet-up type things. I've been thinking about doing a 'reps case studies' group, where each meet up you work through a particular case or two to build up experience and advice without using live ammo, so to speak. Nothing's come of it yet, of course...


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 13, 2017)

Thanks for that LC.  I will take a look at those links tonight at home as at work now.

Just to say, a 'reps case studies' group sounds great and definately the kind of helpful, interesting, learning opportunity I have a taste for. The face to face thing is also much more my style and it reduces the platform for anonymous grandstanders and/or trolls.

I have been thinking a lot about this stuff lately, fresh from another week's rep training last week and just generally because in between particular cases at work it all seems to get a bit dry even if the work around policy review/change etc seems to be infinite.

I have started my own networking group for community based enterprise and develop ment projects in the past and that proved really useful and popular with those that participated so I know this approach can definitely work.

Some of the people I met on the latest course I did expressed an interest in this kind of thing too so I reckon it has legs.


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## Duncan2 (Nov 16, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Thanks for that LC.  I will take a look at those links tonight at home as at work now.
> 
> Just to say, a 'reps case studies' group sounds great and definately the kind of helpful, interesting, learning opportunity I have a taste for. The face to face thing is also much more my style and it reduces the platform for anonymous grandstanders and/or trolls.
> 
> ...


Couldn't think where to mention this but it is sort of union-related and might be of interest to someone on here.Back in 2013 i got dismissed after thirteen years of employment with an American multi-national for using the word "bull-shit".I went to a tribunal and spent a fair bit of time preparing some kind of a case,a Schedule of Loss and such-like.Anyway it came to nothing because fees had just been introduced and my dead-line to pay a seven hundred quid hearing fee came and went.
	Much later the govt's decision to impose fees was found to have been unlawful and I had thought I might apply to the Tribunal for a refund of an initial payment of 150 quid to launch my case for unfair dismissal.I now have a letter from the Tribunal saying that,if I want,they will reinstate the claim i originally made four years ago against my then employer?If i can find the gargantuan dossier i compiled-happy days!


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## ska invita (Nov 16, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Union people
> 
> Are you a member of any official or unofficical union related meet up groups/networks?
> 
> ...


is there any life in the local borough TUCs?
GLATUC Links to London TUC's
I've heard that  some are quite active.
?
i think any card carrying union member is welcome in their local TUC branch?


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## Lord Camomile (Dec 7, 2017)

Does anyone have any experience of cross-branch organising?

I'm working on setting up a network between branches based in London unis. While I have a whole host of ideas it's always good to hear from people who've been there, done that, and know what works, what people forget, what people shouldn't bother with, etc


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## Lord Camomile (Dec 11, 2017)

One of our Young Workers Month events last month was a panel discussion, and one of the things that really struck out to me was when one guy, mid-20s, who works for the student union said lots of young people can't spend money on "just in case" stuff like unions, insurance, savings, etc - they're too busy dealing with "right now" expenses.

It got me wondering how unions could provide more value for money beyond the "just in case" stuff, to maybe make trade unions a bit more relevant and worth the monthly 'subscription'.

Thoughts on the back of a ballot paper, please


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## Duncan2 (Dec 28, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> One of our Young Workers Month events last month was a panel discussion, and one of the things that really struck out to me was when one guy, mid-20s, who works for the student union said lots of young people can't spend money on "just in case" stuff like unions, insurance, savings, etc - they're too busy dealing with "right now" expenses.
> 
> It got me wondering how unions could provide more value for money beyond the "just in case" stuff, to maybe make trade unions a bit more relevant and worth the monthly 'subscription'.
> 
> Thoughts on the back of a ballot paper, please


If your employer is minded to discipline her employee-is there any limit to the number of pre-disciplinary "investigation" hearings she can require him or her to attend withot prior notice and without a union or other representative?I am currently between my third and fourth such hearings and on each occasion there has been two of them and one of me.At the fourth hearing they are to tell me whether there will be a formal hearing in which case it will be on notice and I will be able to take a rep along.This will be the disciplinary itself.It is already apparent that their recollection of the investigation meetings is at variance with mine and also that it is these subsequent discussions which are to be the focus of the disciplinary.[The original offence ( which got me removed from a meeting) was suggesting that voter apathy re employee of the month was related to not having had a pay rise again].Is this fair?


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## Lord Camomile (Feb 9, 2018)

Does anyone know 'owt about the Women's Strike (on 08 March, International Women's Day) and the legalities around striking? Got some people who are interested but I was under the understanding that for strikes it has to be a dispute your union is directly involved in?

Is it just a case of taking leave/calling in sick?


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## crossthebreeze (Feb 10, 2018)

Lord Camomile said:


> Does anyone know 'owt about the Women's Strike (on 08 March, International Women's Day) and the legalities around striking? Got some people who are interested but I was under the understanding that for strikes it has to be a dispute your union is directly involved in?
> 
> Is it just a case of taking leave/calling in sick?


Yes - unless they want to organise (and take the risk for - though there is a strike fund meant to being organised) a wildcat walkout or something:
from here: "On 8 March 2018 women will strike and refuse to work. We will walk out of our kitchens, universities, brothels, schools, bedrooms, factories, hospitals and offices. We will strike from all the work we do, whether it is paid or unpaid. If you can strike on 8 March, do. If you need to book the day off work, do it now. Or call in sick on the day. Withdraw all the housework and domestic work you do everyday for free. If you have a partner, get them to care for the kids or make breakfast."


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## Guineveretoo (Feb 10, 2018)

On 8 March this year my work, and that of quite a few other women, will take me to the TUC Women’s Conference. I really don’t want to withdraw my labour that day.


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## Lord Camomile (Feb 10, 2018)

Is that when the TUC Women's Conference is this year? I tried googling last week but could only find info about previous ones


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## Guineveretoo (Feb 10, 2018)

Lord Camomile said:


> Is that when the TUC Women's Conference is this year? I tried googling last week but could only find info about previous ones


Yes. It’s usually in the same week as International Women’s Day. On the Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of that week.


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## Lord Camomile (Feb 10, 2018)

Guineveretoo said:


> Yes. It’s usually in the same week as International Women’s Day. On the Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of that week.


Is there _any_ info online?! Would like to promote it to our members, if possible.


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## Guineveretoo (Feb 11, 2018)

Lord Camomile said:


> Is there _any_ info online?! Would like to promote it to our members, if possible.


I don't think the website is very well maintained these days - not a priority in a time of cuts, I suspect 

I will have a look later and see what I can find. 

it is a delegate conference - information is sent to the unions directly, and delegates and visitors have to be signed off by your General Secretary. 

And the deadline for delegates has passed, I am afraid. If you tell me which union you are, I could probably let you know who your union contact is


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## Lord Camomile (Feb 11, 2018)

Guineveretoo said:


> And the deadline for delegates has passed, I am afraid. If you tell me which union you are, I could probably let you know who your union contact is


I'm UNISON. Our branch sec is pretty snowed under at the moment with casework plus a fairly substantial campaign to bring our outsourced cleaners in-house, so this 'non-vital' stuff often slips through the net.

I'm starting to try and pick that sort of thing up, but it's early days and a lot of work to do.


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## Guineveretoo (Feb 11, 2018)

Lord Camomile said:


> I'm UNISON. Our branch sec is pretty snowed under at the moment with casework plus a fairly substantial campaign to bring our outsourced cleaners in-house, so this 'non-vital' stuff often slips through the net.
> 
> I'm starting to try and pick that sort of thing up, but it's early days and a lot of work to do.


I meant at a national level. 

When I was a member of UNISON, you used to determine your women's conference delegation through the national women's committee, but also through the regional conferences. 

You have quite a big delegation, but not enough for branch people to be able to go, other than through the union bureaucracy. 

You have regional women's officers as well as the national contact, actually, so it is all a bit complicated and difficult for ordinary members to find out about these events and to get along to them, because, by necessity, a large union has a complex bureaucracy.


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## Lord Camomile (Feb 11, 2018)

Guineveretoo said:


> it is all a bit complicated and difficult for ordinary members to find out about these events and to get along to them, because, by necessity, a large union has a complex bureaucracy.


...so I am learning 

I do get rather turned about and confuzzled by all the different levels, roles and other things involved from branch right up to national level. I'm trying to get my head round it though so I can be of more use to the branch, and hopefully act as something of a 'translator' for other branch members, trying to make the whole thing a bit more accessible and get them more engaged.


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## Guineveretoo (Feb 11, 2018)

Lord Camomile said:


> ...so I am learning
> 
> I do get rather turned about and confuzzled by all the different levels, roles and other things involved from branch right up to national level. I'm trying to get my head round it though so I can be of more use to the branch, and hopefully act as something of a 'translator' for other branch members, trying to make the whole thing a bit more accessible and get them more engaged.


You have my sympathy!

When I was a branch person for Nalgo then UNISON, we focussed on local things and got ourselves involved with the Trades Union Councils and things, which seemed a good way to get involved in the wider movement. I know they are mixed as well, in terms of how effective they are, but they get to send Observers to TUC conferences as well, and they often struggle to find anyone interested in attending, so that might be something to talk to your members about. 

Trade Union Councils are local enough that they seem relevant to ordinary members, as it were.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2018)

got a case where the manager is arranging a meeting with a member at times when reps can't attend - was handed the case the other day and strangely the only two times i can't make next week are when the manager wants the meeting!

so i checked the manager's diary (the wonders of outlook  ) and suggested a time when she didn't have a meeting, only for her to say, no can do, only the times you can't make. so i checked her diary again, and found she's free on tuesday morning. sent her an email, sorry you can't make weds afternoon, did check your calendar, advised member that having meetings at times which effectively exclude her chosen companions may lead to a perception the process unfair and could be grounds for an appeal against any formal warning. see you're free tuesday morning, how's that sound?

i await her response.


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## Lord Camomile (Sep 27, 2018)

"Today, we won"

I've been shamefully uninvolved in the campaign to get our cleaners and security in-house, but so proud of those that have been for the past two years. Still yet to see it in writing, but word from our branch sec is that there will be an announcement later today


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## MickiQ (Sep 27, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> got a case where the manager is arranging a meeting with a member at times when reps can't attend - was handed the case the other day and strangely the only two times i can't make next week are when the manager wants the meeting!
> 
> so i checked the manager's diary (the wonders of outlook  ) and suggested a time when she didn't have a meeting, only for her to say, no can do, only the times you can't make. so i checked her diary again, and found she's free on tuesday morning. sent her an email, sorry you can't make weds afternoon, did check your calendar, advised member that having meetings at times which effectively exclude her chosen companions may lead to a perception the process unfair and could be grounds for an appeal against any formal warning. see you're free tuesday morning, how's that sound?
> 
> i await her response.


It sounds like you're being pissed about, I take it you've pointed out that you being there is the members legal right and not just window dressing?


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## Lord Camomile (Sep 27, 2018)

>


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## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> It sounds like you're being pissed about, I take it you've pointed out that you being there is the members legal right and not just window dressing?


seems to have ended ok


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## mhendo (Oct 10, 2018)

Not sure how much you folks on the other side of the Atlantic know about unions in the United States, or how closely your news sources follow developments in US labor laws, but there was a massively-important Supreme Court case this summer that made a fundamental change to how public-sector unions work in many states.

A number of states, including California (where I live), have laws on the books that allow public-sector unions to draw union dues from all workers covered by the collective bargaining agreement, even if those workers don't want to join the union, and even if they don't like the union very much. The argument behind these "fair share" dues, or "agency fees," as they're often called, is that all the public-sector workers benefit from the collective bargaining work of the unions, and therefore should contribute to the union's upkeep. Unions had often argued that, if you don't allow agency fees, you end up with too many "free riders"; i.e., people who benefit from unions without contributing to them. This, in turn, makes unions hard to sustain.

These agency fees had been ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court in the _Abood v. Detroit Board of Education _case in 1977. I'm not quite sure whether or not there's a similar system for public-sector unions in the UK.

Anyway, in June the Supreme Court issued its ruling in _Janus v. AFSCME_, overturning _Abood_ and finding that agency fees constitute an unconstitutional violation of the First Amendment right to freedom of speech. Essentially, they ruled that agency fees constituted a compelled subsidy of speech with which people might disagree.

This case was incredibly closely watched, and was probably one of the most highly-publicized cases of this Supreme Court term, with free market types and anti-union conservatives cheering for the Court to overturn _Abood_, and union supporters claiming that, if agency fees were eliminated, it would be the death knell for public-sector unions.

As a union member (in a public-sector union), and as a union supporter and a lefty more generally, I was hoping that the Court would uphold Abood, and I think that there were good Constitutional arguments for doing so. One of the nation's most prominent and well-respected Constitutional scholars, a libertarian-leaning attorney who is, in his own words, "somewhat skeptical of modern American unionism," actually co-authored an _amicus curiae_ brief in the case arguing that there's no Constitutional problem with compelled speech. As the brief notes, it happens a lot:





> Compelled subsidies of others' speech happen all the time, and are not generally viewed as burdening any First Amendment interest. The government collects and spends tax dollars, doles out grants and subsidies to private organizations that engage in speech, and even requires private parties to pay other private parties for speech-related services—like, for example, legal representation. To be certain, these compelled subsidies are subject to _other_ constitutional restrictions. For example, the government cannot compel payments that violate the First Amendment's Religion Clauses or the Equal Protection Clause. But a compelled subsidy does not itself burden a free-standing First Amendment interest in freedom of speech or association.


This seems, on its face, to be a pretty convincing argument to me.

It's too soon yet to know what the long-term consequences of the decision will be. Firstly, in more than 25 states, there will be no change, because those states had not passed laws allowing agency fees. While I hoped the court would uphold _Abood_, I was never quite as worried about the outcome as some of my union friends and comrades. I think you could even make the argument that we people who join public-sector unions and support them now have a greater incentive to make sure that our unions are relevant to the people they serve. That way, we can go out and convince our fellow workers that it's worth signing the little piece of paper that makes you a member, and that lets the union take a bit of money out of your paycheck each month.

What I've been most disappointed in, at least in my union, is how many people have taken a head-in-the-sand approach to the _Janus_ decision. I attended a union kick-off conference in August, where about 150-200 people from our union, from all across the state, got together for a couple of days to talk about the key issues faced by the union in the coming year. Being a naive fool, I assumed that we'd spend time talking about the Janus decision and strategizing about how best to make our union more relevant and attractive to the people we hoped to get as members. And yet, in the opening meeting of the conference, we were basically told that Janus was a dirty word, and that it should not be uttered aloud at the conference. Furthermore, we were told not to mention it when trying to recruit new members in our own workplaces, and if someone asked about it, to downplay it and simply note that the union was determined to flourish despite the efforts of anti-union elements.

I thought that was a profoundly misguided and wrongheaded approach. This is probably the most important legal decision affecting American unions in over 40 years; our response should not be to pretend it never happened.


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## Guineveretoo (Oct 10, 2018)

mhendo said:


> Not sure how much you folks on the other side of the Atlantic know about unions in the United States, or how closely your news sources follow developments in US labor laws, but there was a massively-important Supreme Court case this summer that made a fundamental change to how public-sector unions work in many states.
> 
> A number of states, including California (where I live), have laws on the books that allow public-sector unions to draw union dues from all workers covered by the collective bargaining agreement, even if those workers don't want to join the union, and even if they don't like the union very much. The argument behind these "fair share" dues, or "agency fees," as they're often called, is that all the public-sector workers benefit from the collective bargaining work of the unions, and therefore should contribute to the union's upkeep. Unions had often argued that, if you don't allow agency fees, you end up with too many "free riders"; i.e., people who benefit from unions without contributing to them. This, in turn, makes unions hard to sustain.
> 
> ...


I didn’t know that at all, and it’s very interesting. 

It ties in with the “closed shop” in the UK, which required someone to join the union in order to work in a particular workplace or job. 

That was outlawed in this country a long time ago, and the unions in the public sector have been undermined repeatedly since then by legislation which weakens them and makes it more complicated and difficult just to recruit and retain members.


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## Lord Camomile (Oct 24, 2018)

I'm trying to get our branch house in order a bit by putting a spreadsheet together of all our branch committee members, reps, workplace contacts, etc - idea being if their info is all in one place it'll be easier to contact them all, or in individual depts., see where we have good density, where things could be improved, etc.

Ideally, I'd also like to set up some kind of case management system, so we can see how many cases we have, in which depts., who's repping them, any major themes, etc... Obviously this kind of thing would bring lots of data protection stuff into play, but even if we leave out details and can just say "we have X cases in Y dept." or "Rep Z has way too many cases right now, we have to give this one to someone else" I think that'd really help the branch run smooth.

So... does anyone have any experience with any management systems? I'm currently throwing something together, but feel like I don't have enough experience to intuitively know what's going to be useful, what not, and what we shouldn't do because it'll cause us headaches later on!


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 25, 2018)

First thing I’d do is call a meeting, get as many of you there as you can, discuss it & throw some ideas around  As you mentioned the GDPR, it’s a bit of a minefield regarding how that info is stored, shared etc.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2018)

Lord Camomile said:


> I'm trying to get our branch house in order a bit by putting a spreadsheet together of all our branch committee members, reps, workplace contacts, etc - idea being if their info is all in one place it'll be easier to contact them all, or in individual depts., see where we have good density, where things could be improved, etc.
> 
> Ideally, I'd also like to set up some kind of case management system, so we can see how many cases we have, in which depts., who's repping them, any major themes, etc... Obviously this kind of thing would bring lots of data protection stuff into play, but even if we leave out details and can just say "we have X cases in Y dept." or "Rep Z has way too many cases right now, we have to give this one to someone else" I think that'd really help the branch run smooth.
> 
> So... does anyone have any experience with any management systems? I'm currently throwing something together, but feel like I don't have enough experience to intuitively know what's going to be useful, what not, and what we shouldn't do because it'll cause us headaches later on!


have you mapped your membership?


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## Lord Camomile (Oct 26, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> First thing I’d do is call a meeting, get as many of you there as you can, discuss it & throw some ideas around  As you mentioned the GDPR, it’s a bit of a minefield regarding how that info is stored, shared etc.


It was on the agenda for last night's committee meeting (couldn't attend as I was working the evening shift) so waiting to hear back on what was discussed there. Just feel like surely there must be some kind of 'industry standard(s)' that branches use. It's not like it's a particularly novel idea.



Pickman's model said:


> have you mapped your membership?


I think there was work done on this in the past year/18 months, but not sure if it was completed.


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## Lord Camomile (Feb 5, 2019)

So, the case management system is going nowhere fast, but while I work on that I'm turning my attention to something else: a branch/general TU calendar of key events like rallies, marches, conferences, etc.

Again, before I go putting a load of work into this.. does something like this already exist? Or, probably more likely, where should I be looking for details of events? TUC and UNISON websites are the obvious ones (though not always the easiest to navigate  ), but anyone else I should be bookmarking?


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## hermitical (Feb 23, 2019)

Any recommendations for a decent union?

In the South-West, work is import, export, processing (very small growing operation) of dried herbs, spices, teas, I'm in the office dealing with samples and paperwork. I'd be the lone member, no recognised union where I work, and I do not have the mental or physical energy to go on recruitment drives - sorry, but I only just hold myself together as it is. Stuff going on (see other thread!) and some want to start a staff forum of sorts because of all this, but I just feel I should join up again for the future. Used to be in Unison when working at a uni and started but never completed rep training (I told you I can only just hold things together...)

Thanks, and I hope I'm ok to ask the question on this thread...


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 23, 2019)

hermitical said:


> Any recommendations for a decent union?
> 
> In the South-West, work is import, export, processing (very small growing operation) of dried herbs, spices, teas, I'm in the office dealing with samples and paperwork. I'd be the lone member, no recognised union where I work, and I do not have the mental or physical energy to go on recruitment drives - sorry, but I only just hold myself together as it is. Stuff going on (see other thread!) and some want to start a staff forum of sorts because of all this, but I just feel I should join up again for the future. Used to be in Unison when working at a uni and started but never completed rep training (I told you I can only just hold things together...)
> 
> Thanks, and I hope I'm ok to ask the question on this thread...




What union are your colleagues in?


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## hermitical (Feb 23, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> What union are your colleagues in?



Sorry, it was a messy paragraph - "I'd be the lone member, no recognised union where I work"


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 23, 2019)

hermitical said:


> Sorry, it was a messy paragraph - "I'd be the lone member, no recognised union where I work"




Ah okay. Similar to where I am now as no formally recognised union so up to colleagues to choose for themselves. I am still with Unite as there didn't seem much point changing just for changing sake because I've also stayed in the same sector.

Are any of your colleagues members of any unions that you know of?


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## ddraig (Feb 23, 2019)

the IWW


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## Guineveretoo (Feb 23, 2019)

hermitical said:


> Any recommendations for a decent union?
> 
> In the South-West, work is import, export, processing (very small growing operation) of dried herbs, spices, teas, I'm in the office dealing with samples and paperwork. I'd be the lone member, no recognised union where I work, and I do not have the mental or physical energy to go on recruitment drives - sorry, but I only just hold myself together as it is. Stuff going on (see other thread!) and some want to start a staff forum of sorts because of all this, but I just feel I should join up again for the future. Used to be in Unison when working at a uni and started but never completed rep training (I told you I can only just hold things together...)
> 
> Thanks, and I hope I'm ok to ask the question on this thread...


I would probably recommend Unite, although I don’t have a good experience of being represented by them in an unrecognised workplace.


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## hermitical (Feb 23, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Ah okay. Similar to where I am now as no formally recognised union so up to colleagues to choose for themselves. I am still with Unite as there didn't seem much point changing just for changing sake because I've also stayed in the same sector.
> 
> Are any of your colleagues members of any unions that you know of?



Not as far as I know. It's a smallish 'ethical' company with quite a few people very long serving. I don't think anyone has ever felt the need to join a union. There may be someone who is a member but it has never been mentioned.


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## Duncan2 (May 11, 2019)

Is it a measure of the decline in the effectiveness of Unions that we now hear statements from the police on a fairly regular basis about work they are having to do to enforce minimum-wage legislation on recalcitrant employers? Two items in yesterday morning's news-the first that "environmentally-conscious" purveyors of (fast) fashion were increasingly turning to local manufacturers-and the second that police were again having to look into pop-up garment factories, staffed by illegally under-paid over-lockers, in the back streets of Leicester.(Not many hundreds of yards from Unite's Burleys Way offices in fact).I don't know how you would go about documenting the true-scale of NMW-legislation evasion by UK employers but it would be an interesting line of inquiry I think.


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## hermitical (Jun 8, 2019)

Joining a union still pops into my head but I'm no nearer knowing which would be best.
It seems Unite, GMB, Community, maybe BFAWU (or the IWW!) are most suited to my workplace but I really don't know which would be the best, which is most left-leaning, which would be suited to me possibly being the only worker in a union.
Also, during all the problems a few months ago I disclosed I had a neuro-developmental diagnosis (ASD/ADHD).

I don't know where else to ask or see other people's opinions, I can't seem to find general union forums or such.


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## Proper Tidy (Jun 8, 2019)

hermitical said:


> Joining a union still pops into my head but I'm no nearer knowing which would be best.
> It seems Unite, GMB, Community, maybe BFAWU (or the IWW!) are most suited to my workplace but I really don't know which would be the best, which is most left-leaning, which would be suited to me possibly being the only worker in a union.
> Also, during all the problems a few months ago I disclosed I had a neuro-developmental diagnosis (ASD/ADHD).
> 
> I don't know where else to ask or see other people's opinions, I can't seem to find general union forums or such.


Any one of them would be better than none - but if it was me I'd be looking at Unite or GMB purely because of resources they can offer in unorganised workplace, official representation, access to legal representation etc.


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## Proper Tidy (Jun 8, 2019)

In terms of politics, Community most right leaning (quite managerial, associated with the new labour wing of labour movement), but tbh each unions external politics not the most important factor - if other people you worked with were in community then they'd be best bet.


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## belboid (Jun 8, 2019)

BFAWU are very well organised and quite lefty. Depends a bit on the region/branch, but I'd certainly go for them over GMB.


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## Proper Tidy (Jun 8, 2019)

I've been in Unite for 15 years or something, always been fine as a union although them trying to sell you stuff all the time is quite annoying. Mind you I got a decent deal in their energy club once


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## hermitical (Jun 8, 2019)

Thanks folks,  guess I just need to take a plunge. It's hard having no idea what local branches are like.


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 18, 2019)

First (half) day at UNISON National Delegate Conference, so out of my depth 

Luckily I'm just a lowly visitor; my branch sec arrives tonight and is sharing delegate status with another member who arrives later in the week.


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## Guineveretoo (Jun 21, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> First (half) day at UNISON National Delegate Conference, so out of my depth
> 
> Luckily I'm just a lowly visitor; my branch sec arrives tonight and is sharing delegate status with another member who arrives later in the week.


That takes me back! I attended the first ever UNISON National Delegate Conference, and several after that before I left UNISON.

I hope you enjoy the experience, and get to meet lots of lovely people.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 21, 2019)

i managed to get the first unison tie that my branch got (the branch secretary was a bit miffed)


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## Wookey (Jun 30, 2019)

Seriously considering cancelling my subs over Len McCluskys stance on Brexit. Also their continued commitment to the coal industry makes me fucking furious.

I've always been in a union but I'm fucked if I can allow them to use my money to forward this Tory agenda.


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## Lord Camomile (Jul 10, 2019)

HE members to vote on industrial action over pay | News | News | UNISON National

No word about this to the branches, apparently 

Will be interesting to see how this compares to previous years; are people getting more active, or are they fed up and/or too vulnerable to cause a ruckus?


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## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

got my manager to join unison yesterday, the successful culmination of five years of working on him


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## equationgirl (Feb 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> got my manager to join unison yesterday, the successful culmination of five years of working on him


Well done you


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## Lord Camomile (Mar 3, 2020)

My branch AGM is scheduled for next week, slap bang in the middle of the last week of UCU action 

There is one on the Saturday, and I know the sec and chair are worked really busy and doing their best, but it's not a great look.


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## magneze (Mar 28, 2020)

I'm looking for an alternative to Unite as they can't seem to use the telephone. This has happened on multiple occasions.

According to the TUC website other alternatives are: CWU, PCS, Prospect

Any recommendations?


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## redsquirrel (Mar 29, 2020)

magneze said:


> I'm looking for an alternative to Unite as they can't seem to use the telephone. This has happened on multiple occasions.
> 
> According to the TUC website other alternatives are: CWU, PCS, Prospect
> 
> Any recommendations?


What industry are you in? What union(s) are your colleagues in? CWU are easily the best union of those alternatives but if they don't have a ability to bargain for you collectively, if none of your co-workers are members then they will be of limited use.


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## magneze (Mar 29, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> What industry are you in? What union(s) are your colleagues in? CWU are easily the best union of those alternatives but if they don't have a ability to bargain for you collectively, if none of your co-workers are members then they will be of limited use.


IT. Probably none.

Even simply being able to give advice on employment and redundancy matters would be useful.

Thanks for the recommendation. 👍


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## Duncan2 (Jun 30, 2020)

On Friday last I should have had an email asking me to respond "before June 30th" in the event that I would object to being put on a new period of furlough on a part-time basis.They stated (this multi-national) that taking this step would help them to minimise the redundancies which will need to be made come October.
  Apart from the fact that I read on these boards (somewheres) that you can't be furloughed twice by the same employer I would also have liked to express my doubts that three months with staff on truncated hours could potentially save the employer a packet in redundancy payouts??
I never did get the email and neither did a number of colleagues to whom it also applies.This is what passes for Consultation in the 21st Century UK.


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## Winot (Jun 30, 2020)

Duncan2 said:


> On Friday last I should have had an email asking me to respond "before June 30th" in the event that I would object to being put on a new period of furlough on a part-time basis.They stated (this multi-national) that taking this step would help them to minimise the redundancies which will need to be made come October.
> Apart from the fact that I read on these boards (somewheres) that you can't be furloughed twice by the same employer I would also have liked to express my doubts that three months with staff on truncated hours could potentially save the employer a packet in redundancy payouts??
> I never did get the email and neither did a number of colleagues to whom it also applies.This is what passes for Consultation in the 21st Century UK.



You can only be put on furlough if you agree to it. If you don’t agree then the employer can make you redundant (with the usual rules applying).

If you have agreed to furlough for a period and the employer wants to extend the agreed period then they need to ask again.


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## Duncan2 (Jun 30, 2020)

Winot said:


> You can only be put on furlough if you agree to it. If you don’t agree then the employer can make you redundant (with the usual rules applying).
> 
> If you have agreed to furlough for a period and the employer wants to extend the agreed period then they need to ask again.


Cheers for that @Winot.Astonishingly they have replied to my email just a few minutes ago insisting that I agree "before June 30th" on the new "flexible" furlough.They have ignored my question as to whether an eventual redundancy payment could be reduced altogether so I guess I must assume that this is indeed likely if I volunteer for this new completely vague arrangement.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 30, 2020)

Duncan2 said:


> Cheers for that @Winot.Astonishingly they have replied to my email just a few minutes ago insisting that I agree "before June 30th" on the new "flexible" furlough.They have ignored my question as to whether an eventual redundancy payment could be reduced altogether so I guess I must assume that this is indeed likely if I volunteer for this new completely vague arrangement.



I think this is possibly not the best thread for this, and subject to the disclaimer that I'm not in HR and it's a while since I have been a union rep...

Initially, the coronavirus furlough scheme was 'all or nothing' - you either carried on working on your normal contract or you were off.   I understand that you can now be on 'flexible furlough' where you work part time and government makes up (at leas most of) the difference.  

Can't find much online that's aimed at workers not employers, this may help.

i agree with Winot that employers can't compel you to go on furlough, but may be better than redundancy.  

i think you can be re-furloughed if circumstances change so it may be possible at some places that they furlough X percent of staff at a time (although as far as i'm aware, there's a minimum 3 week period for any furlough.  i'm not sure if there's a minimum period back at work before you can be furloughed again.)

i'm fairly confident that being on furlough (or part time furlough) would not change your substantive full time pay for purposes of redundancy payments, and any time on furlough would still count for length of service for redundancy pay and so on.

i'd suggest seeking advice from your union if possible, or may be worth a phone call to ACAS if that's not an option.  

ACAS page on furlough here - they do have a helpline that any employer or employee can call for advice (although they are probably kinda busy at the moment)


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## Duncan2 (Jun 30, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I think this is possibly not the best thread for this, and subject to the disclaimer that I'm not in HR and it's a while since I have been a union rep...
> 
> Cheers for all of the above Puddytat I reckon you are right about periods on furlough/part-time working being an irrelevance when it comes to working out any eventual severance pay.Getting cynical in my old age.Will check out the links you posted


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## Lord Camomile (Jul 9, 2020)

Bit late notice, but just in case it's of interest to anyone TUC have got a whole load of online sessions organised over today, tomorrow and Saturday. I've signed up to quite a few 

Organise 2020


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## Duncan2 (Sep 13, 2021)

Bump.Does anyone know in this post Brexit era whether the provisions of the Agency-Workers Directive still apply in the UK perhaps as a result of the European Communities Act 2018? Where I work they are currently having to bus in the Temps from fifty miles down the M1 I am curious to know whether after thirteen weeks they (the employer that is) will also have to bestow on the Temps the extra quid that permanent workers have just had??


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## Guineveretoo (Sep 13, 2021)

Duncan2 said:


> Bump.Does anyone know in this post Brexit era whether the provisions of the Agency-Workers Directive still apply in the UK perhaps as a result of the European Communities Act 2018? Where I work they are currently having to bus in the Temps from fifty miles down the M1 I am curious to know whether after thirteen weeks they (the employer that is) will also have to bestow on the Temps the extra quid that permanent workers have just had??


This Directive became the Agency Workers Regulations, which still apply. But they remain employees of their agency, not the company for whom they are doing the work, so pay levels can be different.


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 13, 2021)

Duncan2 said:


> Bump.Does anyone know in this post Brexit era whether the provisions of the Agency-Workers Directive still apply in the UK perhaps as a result of the European Communities Act 2018? Where I work they are currently having to bus in the Temps from fifty miles down the M1 I am curious to know whether after thirteen weeks they (the employer that is) will also have to bestow on the Temps the extra quid that permanent workers have just had??



usual disclaimers, and it's not something i've met

TUC worksmart website still has a page about it, including an amendment to the regulations in 2020

Whether in practice, employers can get round it by turfing each batch of temporary workers out after 11 weeks and getting another lot, i'm not sure...


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## Duncan2 (Sep 13, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> usual disclaimers, and it's not something i've met
> 
> TUC worksmart website still has a page about it, including an amendment to the regulations in 2020
> 
> Whether in practice, employers can get round it by turfing each batch of temporary workers out after 11 weeks and getting another lot, i'm not sure...


Thanks Puddy Tat up at crack of dawn tomorrow so heading up the wooden hill but will checl out your link tomorrow.As for turfing out after eleven weeks this definitely goes on at our gaff in respect of the unfortunates they don't wish to employ.I was unsure why post Brexit they still felt the need to do this but I think my question has been answered already.They won't want to turf out temps just now because we are short-staffed but neither will they want to pay temps qua temps what we are now on following recent pay-rise.Could be interesting


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## Guineveretoo (Sep 13, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> usual disclaimers, and it's not something i've met
> 
> TUC worksmart website still has a page about it, including an amendment to the regulations in 2020
> 
> Whether in practice, employers can get round it by turfing each batch of temporary workers out after 11 weeks and getting another lot, i'm not sure...


Temporary workers and agency workers are different things and different regulations apply.


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## Guineveretoo (Sep 13, 2021)

Duncan2 said:


> Thanks Puddy Tat up at crack of dawn tomorrow so heading up the wooden hill but will checl out your link tomorrow.As for turfing out after eleven weeks this definitely goes on at our gaff in respect of the unfortunates they don't wish to employ.I was unsure why post Brexit they still felt the need to do this but I think my question has been answered already.They won't want to turf out temps just now because we are short-staffed but neither will they want to pay temps qua temps what we are now on following recent pay-rise.Could be interesting


Are these agency workers, so employed by an agency, or temporary workers employed directly?


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## Duncan2 (Sep 14, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> Are these agency workers, so employed by an agency, or temporary workers employed directly?


Variety of agencies Guinevere.Soz got to turn in again.But just re your earlier post and the point about different "employers" justifying differentials in pay I had thought that the whole thrust of the AWD and presumably now of the AWR was to militate against that and discourage the phenomenon of the "permanent temp" by levelling up pay and conditions?Will definitely get to Puddytats link tomorrow


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 14, 2021)

Duncan2 said:


> Variety of agencies Guinevere.Soz got to turn in again.But just re your earlier post and the point about different "employers" justifying differentials in pay I had thought that the whole thrust of the AWD and presumably now of the AWR was to militate against that and discourage the phenomenon of the "permanent temp" by levelling up pay and conditions?Will definitely get to Puddytats  definitely get to Puddytats link tomorrow



Just found this thread after being on U75 for ages….I really need to spend less time in P&P arguing with remainers. seriously, good to see it exists.

Duncan, the answer is that the provisions of the AWD still apply, and will remain so unless the government enacts primary legislation to remove or amend them. The UK isn’t of course bound by any future amendments made by the EU but that’s not an issue here. Here are the regs (see page 7)



			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/841981/agency-workers-regulations-2010-guidance.pdf
		


The principle is as you understand it: after 12 weeks employment with the same employer agency workers should be paid the same basic pay rate as directly employed workers. As it always the case the detail is important, but the principle is clear.

You may also find this interesting…






						The Agency Workers (Amendment) Regulations 2019: RPC Opinion
					

Regulatory Policy Committee opinion on BEIS' impact assessment of The Agency Workers (Amendment) Regulations 2019 – revocation of the Swedish derogation.




					www.gov.uk


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## hitmouse (Sep 27, 2021)

Our branch has somehow lost access to its banner and is currently taking suggestions for a new banner design, does anyone have any good ideas to contribute? And/or can anyone recommend any artists who are good at painting big spunking cocks on banners?


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## Lord Camomile (Sep 27, 2021)

Ooh, might keep an eye out for recommendations meself.

Apparently our last one was left on a bus some years ago


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## hitmouse (Sep 27, 2021)

I've had what happened to our banner explained to me but I still don't fully understand it, apparently our stuff was moved from one office to another but all our banner and all our flags got left behind in the move and now no-one has access to the old office? 
Anyway, I've come up with a few designs so far, just need to see what the rest of the committee thinks of them:


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 27, 2021)

They look fine to me….


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## ddraig (Sep 27, 2021)

They'd never go for it obvs, don't like "rocking the boat" as I was told off for in my branch for a feisty artice
The looks on some of their faces when I said that's what I thought unions were meant to do


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## hitmouse (Nov 21, 2021)

Spose this might as well go here, interesting article:








						What is the rank-and-file strategy?
					

by Ray // Transcript of a talk at TWT




					notesfrombelow.org


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## hitmouse (Dec 21, 2021)

I just tried having a look for this, and it turns out that instagram automatically hides content with the hashtag #notgoodenough in case it's linked to self-harm. Unison definitely winning at social media there.


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## Lord Camomile (Dec 21, 2021)

Oh, fucking hell, really??

I'm just about to head into a branch committee meeting, honestly not sure if I'll bring that up, given how frustrated they've already been with a lot of the organisation of this coming from head office.


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## hitmouse (Feb 3, 2022)

Our union branch committee voted to make a donation to another union's strike fund. We've now been advised by a full-time official that this would be risky territory as it could potentially be challenged as inappropriate expenditure. Is it just me, or is that totally fucking bonkers?


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## ddraig (Feb 3, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Our union branch committee voted to make a donation to another union's strike fund. We've now been advised by a full-time official that this would be risky territory as it could potentially be challenged as inappropriate expenditure. Is it just me, or is that totally fucking bonkers?


Yes it's bonkers, some full time officers are too cosy in their paid positions and close to the bosses


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 3, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Our union branch committee voted to make a donation to another union's strike fund. We've now been advised by a full-time official that this would be risky territory as it could potentially be challenged as inappropriate expenditure. Is it just me, or is that totally fucking bonkers?



Yes, it does sound bonkers

But - with all the tories' anti trade union laws, it wouldn't surprise me too much if it wasn't allowed.  I'm not really up to date with these things.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Our union branch committee voted to make a donation to another union's strike fund. We've now been advised by a full-time official that this would be risky territory as it could potentially be challenged as inappropriate expenditure. Is it just me, or is that totally fucking bonkers?



It’s a load of bollocks.


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## hitmouse (Feb 3, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Yes, it does sound bonkers
> 
> But - with all the tories' anti trade union laws, it wouldn't surprise me too much if it wasn't allowed.  I'm not really up to date with these things.


Yeah, as much as it pains me to say "this isn't the tories' fault", I think the culprit in this case is more to do with some union officials having a mentality that seems other unions as rivals rather than as fellow workers or, god forbid, comrades.
While I'm on a whinge, I recently had a look at whether our branch could purchase branded face masks for our members as a way of promoting covid safety while also helping to improve the union's visibility (yes, I know this idea is about two years late, but better late than never), only to find out that the national union had given out guidance saying banning branded face masks because "This is important to protect the union." Which, given that other unions like Unite and  the RMT have definitely made them, would seem to be less because unions who have branded face coverings get into trouble, and more just that our officials love to make life difficult?


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Yeah, as much as it pains me to say "this isn't the tories' fault", I think the culprit in this case is more to do with some union officials having a mentality that seems other unions as rivals rather than as fellow workers or, god forbid, comrades.



As far as I know Tory anti-trade union would only be a consideration if the Branch wanted to donate funds to a political party at election time. Even then, its more about accounting by the union centrally. There is nothing to prevent a branch supporting workers from another union in struggle. We do it regularly.


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 3, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Yeah, as much as it pains me to say "this isn't the tories' fault", I think the culprit in this case is more to do with some union officials having a mentality that seems other unions as rivals rather than as fellow workers or, god forbid, comrades.





Smokeandsteam said:


> As far as I know Tory anti-trade union would only be a consideration if the Branch wanted to donate funds to a political party at election time. Even then, its more about accounting by the union centrally. There is nothing to prevent a branch supporting workers from another union in struggle. We do it regularly.



in which case  at the officials involved.

as i said, i've not been actively involved for a while - have been a union member but not in a 'recognised' job with a branch and so on.  i would not have put it past the tories to make something like that count as some form of 'secondary industrial action' while i wasn't looking...

yes, there are some lines of work where multiple unions can give management the opportunity to play the unions involved off against each other, and the unions involved can sometimes fall for it...


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## Lord Camomile (Feb 3, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Yes, it does sound bonkers
> 
> But - with all the tories' anti trade union laws, it wouldn't surprise me too much if it wasn't allowed.  I'm not really up to date with these things.


Aye, that was essentially my initial thoughts too.

Honestly not sure if it's good news or not that it's not anti-union legislation but just cross-union territorial concerns.



hitmouse said:


> Yeah, as much as it pains me to say "this isn't the tories' fault", I think the culprit in this case is more to do with some union officials having a mentality that seems other unions as rivals rather than as fellow workers or, god forbid, comrades.
> While I'm on a whinge, I recently had a look at whether our branch could purchase branded face masks for our members as a way of promoting covid safety while also helping to improve the union's visibility (yes, I know this idea is about two years late, but better late than never), only to find out that the national union had given out guidance saying banning branded face masks because "This is important to protect the union." Which, given that other unions like Unite and  the RMT have definitely made them, would seem to be less because unions who have branded face coverings get into trouble, and more just that our officials love to make life difficult?


Is it "protect the union" essentially in an "I bought one of your masks but still got Covid" sort of way?!


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## Lord Camomile (Feb 3, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> yes, there are some lines of work where multiple unions can give management the opportunity to play the unions involved off against each other, and the unions involved can sometimes fall for it...


We've three unions in my workplace, and pretty sure I've been told about similar stuff happening here.

Think one I remember was essentially management saying "we've had really good talks with Union A", something like that. Probably much more sinister stuff around though, I imagine.


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## hitmouse (Feb 3, 2022)

Lord Camomile said:


> Aye, that was essentially my initial thoughts too.
> 
> Honestly not sure if it's good news or not that it's not anti-union legislation but just cross-union territorial concerns.


Yeah, and it's a union where we do have some "competition" for members in some workplaces, but this particular dispute is in an industry/sector where we have no presence at all. Which was given as another reason for why a donation might be ruled inappropriate. 


Lord Camomile said:


> Is it "protect the union" essentially in an "I bought one of your masks but still got Covid" sort of way?!


I mean, I can only go by the statement put out, which doesn't give any extra reasoning, but yeah, I would guess that must be the "logic" at work. Which again, I'm sure is nonsense, I've never heard of anyone successfully suing a mask manufacturer after catching covid, and with the exact moment of transmission being notoriously difficult to pinpoint, I can't imagine how you could prove to a court that you were definitely 100% wearing that particular mask at the moment you got infected.


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## Lord Camomile (Feb 3, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Yeah, and it's a union where we do have some "competition" for members in some workplaces, but this particular dispute is in an industry/sector where we have no presence at all. Which was given as another reason for why a donation might be ruled inappropriate.
> 
> I mean, I can only go by the statement put out, which doesn't give any extra reasoning, but yeah, I would guess that must be the "logic" at work. Which again, I'm sure is nonsense, I've never heard of anyone successfully suing a mask manufacturer after catching covid, and with the exact moment of transmission being notoriously difficult to pinpoint, I can't imagine how you could prove to a court that you were definitely 100% wearing that particular mask at the moment you got infected.


Sorry, yeah, it was very much a "is this your/our interpretation?", rather than thinking you had more info.

Again, not going to pretend I know 'owt about the law, but yup, certainly reads like one of those where there is _sort of _a logic to it, but only if you accept certain premises which likely aren't actually true.


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## belboid (Feb 3, 2022)

Which fund would it be coming from? It can’t come from the admin or Labour link funds, only the general political fund.  If that has nowt in it, the official _could_ have a point.  

And which union is it you want to donate to? If we’d (unite) donated to unison, that would have been fine, no questions asked. If it was the IWGB however….


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2022)

belboid said:


> Which fund would it be coming from? It can’t come from the admin or Labour link funds, only the general political fund.  If that has nowt in it, the official _could_ have a point.
> 
> And which union is it you want to donate to? If we’d (unite) donated to unison, that would have been fine, no questions asked. If it was the IWGB however….



There is nothing in rule to prevent Unite Branches donating to the IWGB. Bar FTO disapproval of course.


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## hitmouse (Feb 3, 2022)

belboid said:


> Which fund would it be coming from? It can’t come from the admin or Labour link funds, only the general political fund.  If that has nowt in it, the official _could_ have a point.
> 
> And which union is it you want to donate to? If we’d (unite) donated to unison, that would have been fine, no questions asked. If it was the IWGB however….


Um, from branch funds, I'm not 100% sure if we have the three separate funds at branch level but then I'm not the treasurer, I think we just have general fund and industrial action fund? And yeah, was having a paranoid moment of not wanting to name names but was indeed the IWGB couriers' dispute which seemed worth supporting. Since they are a certified trade union, I can't see how making a donation to them would be legally any different to donating to any other union, although I can imagine some union officials may dislike them more.


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## belboid (Feb 3, 2022)

They’re a non-TUC union though, which _might_ be affected by a rule someplace.  I’d still do it and tell the official where to stick it, what’s the worst they can do?


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## hitmouse (Feb 3, 2022)

belboid said:


> They’re a non-TUC union though, which _might_ be affected by a rule someplace.  I’d still do it and tell the official where to stick it, what’s the worst they can do?


I mean, that would be my instinctive reaction, but it's not just up to me, so I think I'll have to discuss it with the rest of the branch committee, not least to get an answer to "what’s the worst they can do?", cos I'd feel like a right twat if I ended up getting us all suspended or something. There is a part of me that wonders if it'd be possible to "launder" the money by donating it to the local trades council, who are presumably a bit freer to spend money in supporting relevant disputes, I don't know if that idea is a bit insane though?


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2022)

belboid said:


> They’re a non-TUC union though, which _might_ be affected by a rule someplace.  I’d still do it and tell the official where to stick it, what’s the worst they can do?



Ditto. We’ve been threatened with loads by the (now previous) full timer.


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## Lord Camomile (Feb 3, 2022)

Yet another one where I'm unclear on all the history/context. I also think I get mixed up between IWGB and IWW (Industrial Workers of the World - 'cause I don't even know how well known there are!   ).


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## hitmouse (Feb 22, 2022)

This feels very "compare and contrast" with the experience mentioned above, well done to the CWU for acting like a normal sensible union:


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## hitmouse (Apr 12, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, I can only go by the statement put out, which doesn't give any extra reasoning, but yeah, I would guess that must be the "logic" at work. Which again, I'm sure is nonsense, I've never heard of anyone successfully suing a mask manufacturer after catching covid, and with the exact moment of transmission being notoriously difficult to pinpoint, I can't imagine how you could prove to a court that you were definitely 100% wearing that particular mask at the moment you got infected.


As an update on this, Unison seem to have just now, as of March 15 this year, decided they can start producing branded face masks:

Better late than never and all that, but it seems like starting to produce face masks in March 2022 is missing the boat by a tiny bit? Also I think some of our branches may have more than 50/75 members? 🤷‍♂️


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## Duncan2 (Jul 14, 2022)

I see the big local employment agency for distribution centre staff are not putting "good health" as an essential attribute for those applying for work.Cant be legal can it because it's the equivalent of saying "differently abled people need not apply"?


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## Duncan2 (Jul 14, 2022)

I meant they are now putting that obvs


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## Duncan2 (Oct 2, 2022)

This probably belongs in the bleeding obvious things thread but I have long wondered why Temp Employment Agencies commonly advertise jobs at a certain wage in a certain area but rarely say WHO the putative worker is going to be working for.
  Of course this must be because it would put them in bad odour with the local employers because it would be a simple matter to do a quick scan of the Agency Work available and produce a list of the stingiest companies/corporations.


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## Ms T (Oct 2, 2022)

Ugh. Another round of redundancies.


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## Lord Camomile (Oct 14, 2022)

May have asked before, but are there any online places where reps/union activists hang out and talk to each other?

Often I'd like to talk to folk beyond my own branch, who might have ideas/experience that could help with something we're trying to do, but don't know many places that are properly "let's talk about trade union admin and organising logistics, whoo!".

I know of things like the Unionreps forum, but it's not super active, and I'm in a handful of different chats with a few local branches, etc, and obviously there's _urban _ but just wondering if there's places I'm unaware of that it'd be good to check out?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2022)

Lord Camomile said:


> May have asked before, but are there any online places where reps/union activists hang out and talk to each other?
> 
> Often I'd like to talk to folk beyond my own branch, who might have ideas/experience that could help with something we're trying to do, but don't know many places that are properly "let's talk about trade union admin and organising logistics, whoo!".
> 
> I know of things like the Unionreps forum, but it's not super active, and I'm in a handful of different chats with a few local branches, etc, and obviously there's _urban _ but just wondering if there's places I'm unaware of that it'd be good to check out?


if you're a rep then i imagine you've gone on tu training courses where you'll likely have met some people you'd like to keep in touch with - and if you haven't you should go on one of the courses. how you proceed from there is obviously up to you


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## Lord Camomile (Oct 14, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> if you're a rep then i imagine you've gone on tu training courses where you'll likely have met some people you'd like to keep in touch with - and if you haven't you should go on one of the courses. how you proceed from there is obviously up to you


Yeah, as I say, I'm in a handful of groups along those lines. I'm just looking for something a bit... bigger, I guess. Something with a bit more reach, so you get a wider range of input and experiences.

There are a few individuals/branches I plan to talk to about specific things, but again, that's still small and private discussions.


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## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2022)

Lord Camomile said:


> May have asked before, but are there any online places where reps/union activists hang out and talk to each other?
> 
> Often I'd like to talk to folk beyond my own branch, who might have ideas/experience that could help with something we're trying to do, but don't know many places that are properly "let's talk about trade union admin and organising logistics, whoo!".
> 
> I know of things like the Unionreps forum, but it's not super active, and I'm in a handful of different chats with a few local branches, etc, and obviously there's _urban _ but just wondering if there's places I'm unaware of that it'd be good to check out?


I'd say Strike Map would be a good point of call - are you in their regional Strike Club WhatsApp group?
They've also got a form here where you can sign up to their reps network:








						Join Strike Map's reps, stewards and strike leaders network
					

Sign up using our form to join our network as bring together all those leading struggle into a reps/stewards/strike leaders national network. This network will share tactics, strategies and resources.



					actionnetwork.org
				



I filled it in, found out it was Slack-based and then couldn't be arsed to go any further, but that sounds like what you're looking for? 
Also, perhaps an obvious one, but try checking your local trades council - some of them are pretty moribund, some are a bit less so, but if there are people interested in similar stuff in your area then you might well find them there?
Oh, and to plug Ian Allinson's book tour as well:





						Upcoming Events – Workers Can Win! A Guide to Organising at Work.
					






					workers-can-win.info
				



Dunno what your plans are like for tomorrow afternoon, but sounds like the London launch of his book is tomorrow, co-hosted by two Unite branches, and that might well be a very good place to meet other union reps?


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## hitmouse (Oct 17, 2022)

Might as well put this here, online meeting with people from the Starbucks union:








						Welcome! You are invited to join a meeting: Unionising Starbucks ft Starbucks Workers United & BFAWU. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the meeting.
					

Join Starbucks Workers United members Kylah Clay and Taylor Dickerson, as we discuss the ongoing strikes, and recognition campaigns across Starbucks in the USA.   This meeting will be chaired by Sarah Woolley, General Secretary Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union, and will explore how we can...




					us02web.zoom.us


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## Lord Camomile (Oct 19, 2022)

For anyone interested, TUC Congress is being streamed live (second day today, then final day tomorrow).









						Watch Congress live
					

Congress sessions live from Tuesday 18 September.




					www.tuc.org.uk
				




Programme of business.


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## Lord Camomile (Oct 19, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I'd say Strike Map would be a good point of call - are you in their regional Strike Club WhatsApp group?
> They've also got a form here where you can sign up to their reps network:
> 
> 
> ...


Shit, sorry, honestly thought I'd already replied to this. Thanks for the thoughts/resources


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## Duncan2 (Nov 11, 2022)

Would welcome any thoughts on the subject of Christmas Working.The place i have worked at i.e a warehouse for the last six years have a standard contract that largely ignores Bank Holidays whilst providing for two fixed holiday days per year (i.e warehouse shutdown) on Christmas Day and New Years Day and this has invariably happened since i started.
This year since Christmas falls on a Sunday ( which is not a working day at our DC for any staff) they are telling us that we can have a day in lieu some time after the busy period and we are expected to report for work bright and early on Monday the 26th December which is obviously Boxing Day. this we are told will thus be a normal working day.
Quite apart from the health and safety angle adequate time off coinciding with family social events and so on this doesnt seem right to me.Our contract seems to entitle us to expect that we will have one day holiday at Christmas but this year we are being obliged to work right through Christmas (we won't be at work on Sunday but this will not be because we are enjoying our fixed holiday but because Sunday just isnt a working day anyway?)
Am i being churlish or is this more than a bit shit and maybe a breach of contract? It just seems to me that they ought to be giving us the option of taking the Monday as our fixed Christmas Hol


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## Lord Camomile (Nov 11, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> Am i being churlish


No


Duncan2 said:


> is this more than a bit shit


Yup.


Duncan2 said:


> Am i being churlish or is this more than a bit shit and maybe a breach of contract?


 Now that's a different question.

There might be a 'custom and practice' argument to be made (basically, if there's an unwritten but longstanding convention, leading to reasonable expectation that'll continue).

However, I suspect the main sticking point will be that the reason you usually get that day off is because the warehouse is closed. If the warehouse is not closed on 26th, it's not the same situation.

Hm, although... they arguably wouldn't 'lose' a day of being open, as this year they're not closed Xmas Day in addition to the Sunday they would have been closed anyway.

Presumably this is true of NYD too?

Just for my own understanding, would you not normally be working 26th after a day off on 25th anyway?

Ok, don't think my stream of consciousness is going to be helping matters  I return to "hopefully someone else'll be along soon...


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## Duncan2 (Nov 11, 2022)

no thanks for your input Lord Camomile we would,if we had been unable to book a floating day,normally expect to have to work on Boxing Day but in my case i have previously been able to book that day as occasional holiday but this year i was only able to book the following week which is why not getting a fixed day at New Year isnt in my case a problem.
I have to say i am a bit less sanguine about this now.It did seem to me that we were being deprived of something which the two fixed days clause entitled us to expect i.e at least the option of taking a holiday day at Christmas or,in the event of that not being possible,on the next available working day but yeah maybe there are indeed other ways of construing what has been agreed.Thanks for your opinion


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## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> no thanks for your input Lord Camomile we would,if we had been unable to book a floating day,normally expect to have to work on Boxing Day but in my case i have previously been able to book that day as occasional holiday but this year i was only able to book the following week which is why not getting a fixed day at New Year isnt in my case a problem.
> I have to say i am a bit less sanguine about this now.It did seem to me that we were being deprived of something which the two fixed days clause entitled us to expect i.e at least the option of taking a holiday day at Christmas or,in the event of that not being possible,on the next available working day but yeah maybe there are indeed other ways of construing what has been agreed.Thanks for your opinion



Sounds to me like there is no contractual right to Boxing Day, although as the previous poster says there might be some mileage in running a custom and practise argument.

I don’t know if you are recognised at your place but I’d be sounding out fellow workers about the strength of feeling on this. Maybe a collective grievance could be organised? Maybe a demand for double time on Boxing Day could be tabled? 

It’s shitty stuff from management as there will be no public transport on Boxing Day and given that Christmas Day is a non working day (as opposed to a day off) it seems to me to be a decision that flies in the face of the spirit of the previous arrangements.


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## Lord Camomile (Nov 11, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> no thanks for your input Lord Camomile we would,if we had been unable to book a floating day,normally expect to have to work on Boxing Day but in my case i have previously been able to book that day as occasional holiday but this year i was only able to book the following week which is why not getting a fixed day at New Year isnt in my case a problem.
> I have to say i am a bit less sanguine about this now.It did seem to me that we were being deprived of something which the two fixed days clause entitled us to expect i.e at least the option of taking a holiday day at Christmas or,in the event of that not being possible,on the next available working day but yeah maybe there are indeed other ways of construing what has been agreed.Thanks for your opinion


Nah, I definitely think, even if in sheer logical terms the numbers work out the same over the course of a year, there is something to that difference between "just your regular Sunday off" and "a holiday day".

As Smokeandsteam says, first thing would be to see how much strength of feeling there is about it, and whether that can be a collective position to leverage for something better. What that "better" is, of course, would depend on what the collective wants and what they could feasibly achieve.

Double time is a good option. Would Christmas Eve as a day off instead fly at all?? Obviously depends on exactly what kind of warehouse/company it is, just wondering if they'd be more amenable to closing on a Saturday than a Monday?

Or is there room to split it? So some staff get 24th off, some get 26th off, meanwhile the warehouse stays open on a skeleton crew?


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## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2022)

Lord Camomile said:


> Or is there room to split it? So some staff get 24th off, some get 26th off, meanwhile the warehouse stays open on a skeleton crew?



That’s a good shout. Reasonable and offers a way out for management without having to shut.

Also reinforces the principle at stake here, that Christmas Day - or the day nearest to it on either side, dependent on the day that Christmas Day falls - is a non working day by custom and practice.


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## Duncan2 (Nov 11, 2022)

thanks very much both this is much more like what i was hoping to hear.it is as you say particularly galling that there has not even been any suggestion of time and a half not to mention double-time to soften the blow.hopefully my attempts to stir things up on Monday will be well received


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## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> thanks very much both this is much more like what i was hoping to hear.it is as you say particularly galling that there has not even been any suggestion of time and a half not to mention double-time to soften the blow.hopefully my attempts to stir things up on Monday will be well received



Let us know the feedback and what approach you adopt and how management respond Duncan2 

Good luck.


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## Duncan2 (Nov 11, 2022)

will do and thanks again.


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