# BREXIT Crunch time (part 38) WTF is going to happen next?



## Kaka Tim (Mar 10, 2019)

so - potential crunch for may next.
looks like her deal will get decisely rejected - again.
that means commons then vote on weather to go with no deal - and all bar 50 brexiteer headbangers will vote no to no deal.
but then its a vote on weather to ask for an extension - which they logically have to if they have just rejected no deal.

but then its gets very unpredictable - the EU will not want to give a short extension just to allow may to keep trying to get her deal through (which is exactly what she will do given the opportunity)  - so may insist that an extension is reliant on a new deal that can get through the commons (soft brexit with customs union) a 2nd ref or a general election.

a cross party soft brexit deal -  looks like the most politically feasible - as it is probably the only form of brexit that could get through the commons -  but it would split the tory party - as well as it meaning may has to give up her "red lines".

a 2nd ref - will be resisted by many tory mps (and others) and would mean may having to u-turn on something she repeatedly and categorically ruled out. and it could well split the tory party.

a general election - would mean the tories fighting an election whilst hopelessly divided and most of hte party loath to have May leading the campaign. They could have a leadership contest first - but that could split could split the tory party as it would likely be a brexiteer who wins. although labour have problems if there was a general election as to their brexit policy - and the wrecking potential of the tinge. 

Im going for a general election as what we end up with - but with a large side of order of "fuck knows"


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 10, 2019)




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## ska invita (Mar 10, 2019)

I think May is prepared to go Norwegian...
Lab and Con don't really fancy 2nd ref if at all possible


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## SpackleFrog (Mar 10, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> so - potential crunch for may next.
> looks like her deal will get decisely rejected - again.
> that means commons then vote on weather to go with no deal - and all bar 50 brexiteer headbangers will vote no to no deal.
> but then its a vote on weather to ask for an extension - which they logically have to if they have just rejected no deal.
> ...



Props on the public poll - Pickers will be pleased. But where is the "kick the can down the road forever" option? Or Extension to A50? Or just cancel it?


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 10, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Props on the public poll - Pickers will be pleased. But where is the "kick the can down the road forever" option? Or Extension to A50? Or just cancel it?



I doubt Pickers will care, as they haven't posted in months.

# Pickman's model


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## Wookey (Mar 10, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Or just cancel it?



Imagine.


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## SpackleFrog (Mar 10, 2019)

Wookey said:


> Imagine.



I can imagine. Not sure you can.


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 10, 2019)

needs a 'none of the above' / 'various combinations of the above' option





ska invita said:


> I think May is prepared to go Norwegian...



as in norwegian blue?


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 10, 2019)

added "other" "cancelled" and "mays deal rejected after short extension" options


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## Wookey (Mar 10, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I can imagine. Not sure you can.



Imagine the Tories cancelling Brexit. No, I can't. That's not a realistic option.


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 10, 2019)

the trouble is - every option seems unfeasible - but one of them has to happen.


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## chilango (Mar 10, 2019)

Delay, close eyes, hope for the best, from all sides I reckon.


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## Yossarian (Mar 10, 2019)




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## Yossarian (Mar 10, 2019)




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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2019)

Queen wrests control from parliament, revokes a.50


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## SpackleFrog (Mar 10, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> added "other" "cancelled" and "mays deal rejected after short extension" options



Thanks. I've gone with Other - Kick the Can Down The Road Until The End of Time


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## SpackleFrog (Mar 10, 2019)

Wookey said:


> Imagine the Tories cancelling Brexit. No, I can't. That's not a realistic option.



They can't _deliver _Brexit either.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 10, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> the trouble is - every option seems unfeasible - but one of them has to happen.



There's always the emergency escape option: flip the board over, accuse everyone else of cheating, run up to your room and sulk until bedtime.


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## Poot (Mar 10, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> There's always the emergency escape option: flip the board over, accuse everyone else of cheating, run up to your room and sulk until bedtime.


That implies a level of pragmatism that I just can't believe will be shown. I think the whole thing's going to be a bit more like a sort of wet fart. I mean, that option wasn't in the poll but that's what I'd choose.


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## Libertad (Mar 10, 2019)

Tuesday: Parliament rejects May's deal
Wednesday: Parliament rejects no deal
Thursday: Parliament rejects extension to A50

Nowhere to go but leave without a deal on 29th. Job's a good'un.


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## Voley (Mar 10, 2019)

I'm still holding out hope for the 'Then I woke up and it was all a dream' option.


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## Voley (Mar 10, 2019)

Extension to Article 50 seems most likely to me atm though. Quite how it'll pan out eventually - fuck knows.


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## Supine (Mar 10, 2019)

Feeling more positive about remaining. Hope we do as i'm working in Germany a fair bit at the moment. 

Company I work with in Switzerland are worried about working with UK engineers as there is talk about a limit on numbers starting next month


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## sleaterkinney (Mar 10, 2019)

You forgot: Revolution against the bourgeois


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## rekil (Mar 10, 2019)




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## Gerry1time (Mar 10, 2019)

My gut feeling is May's deal is voted down, no deal is voted down, an extension is voted for, May resigns (after visit from men in grey suits) and the tories call a snap general election. A few reasons;

- May has already stopped being in charge, probably long ago. The only reason she still is is that nobody else wants to be with this mess going on, same reason she was made leader in the first place. If all her work has now finally, indisputably run its course, then there's finally a window to take over and claim a clean slate to start again.

- Assuming voter registration levels are still lower amongst younger rather than older people, then there's an inherent tory / brexit advantage to go to a GE as quickly and unexpectedly as possible. 

- Labour are more of a mess right now than they've been for a while, certainly more than they were at the last GE. 

- Only two things will break this deadlock, a GE or a 2nd referendum, and politicians still seem to believe the nonsense that a 2nd referendum would cause civil unrest. Or at least they find it convenient to seem to believe it.

There have been murmurings about tory preparation for a second GE for a while now. Where the pieces will end up after it though, who knows.


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## Libertad (Mar 10, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> My gut feeling is May's deal is voted down, no deal is voted down, an extension is voted for, May resigns (after visit from men in grey suits) and the tories call a snap general election. A few reasons;
> 
> - May has already stopped being in charge, probably long ago. The only reason she still is is that nobody else wants to be with this mess going on, same reason she was made leader in the first place. If all her work has now finally, indisputably run its course, then there's finally a window to take over and claim a clean slate to start again.
> 
> ...



The vermin would have to elect another leader before announcing a GE.


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## Supine (Mar 10, 2019)

I still think may is a remainer and she is taking it to the brink before letting it cool off.


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 10, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Tuesday: Parliament rejects May's deal
> Wednesday: Parliament rejects no deal
> Thursday: Parliament rejects extension to A50
> 
> Nowhere to go but leave without a deal on 29th. Job's a good'un.



or 

Thursday : parliament agrees extension to A50
Friday : EU says 'piss off' in a variety of languages


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## Crispy (Mar 10, 2019)

But would a GE result in a parliamentary majority for any kind of Brexit/Breentry? Feels like a very long winded way to end up right back where they started


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## farmerbarleymow (Mar 10, 2019)

It's such a fucking shitshow I've no idea wtf is going to happen. 

Parliament and government have turned the country into an international laughing stock.


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## SpackleFrog (Mar 10, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Tuesday: Parliament rejects May's deal
> Wednesday: Parliament rejects no deal
> Thursday: Parliament rejects extension to A50
> 
> Nowhere to go but leave without a deal on 29th. Job's a good'un.



How do you get that? Parliament won't reject an extension.


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## SpackleFrog (Mar 10, 2019)

Crispy said:


> But would a GE result in a parliamentary majority for any kind of Brexit/Breentry? Feels like a very long winded way to end up right back where they started



It has to be long winded. Would be ok for them cos they could start again with a new leader. Or just give up. Either way. Eventually, no Brexit.


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## Dogsauce (Mar 11, 2019)

I think May’s most recent strategy has been to use the threat of ‘no brexit’ rather than the threat of no deal to bring people round to her inflexible deal. Giving Labour/people’s vote types a bit of rope has been very much part of this, however a second vote is just as unlikely as a no deal at the moment and I don’t think many are fooled. Still won’t give her the numbers.

Can’t see it going anywhere with May being as stubborn as she is, so until she’s jettisoned it’ll just go round in circles. Only way out is a GE, probably after an extension, which (on current standings) the tories will gain from, possibly with enough seats to get a May-type deal through without significant trouble or a need for bribery. This would also be helped by them having a leader with enough humility to bring both sides of the party onboard, maybe only Gove able to do this, although I don’t discount the membership sticking a headbanger in charge and the whole fuckshow dragging on until some other events (something of the magnitude of a good war) overshadow the process and it’s thrown to one side indefinitely.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 11, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> ... and the tories call a snap general election.





Libertad said:


> The vermin would have to elect another leader before announcing a GE.


Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act the Tories cannot just _call_ a GE. There needs to a vote in the HoC with a 2/3 rds majority. 

Considering 2017 I think there will be more than a few on the Tory (and Labour) benches that are wary of a new GE, and both the LDs and tinge have said that they are pushing for a 2nd referendum rather than a VoNC in the Tories (which could lead to a GE). So getting a 2/3rds majority through the HoC is not inevitable.


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## Flavour (Mar 11, 2019)

No deal can still happen even if they vote to reject it and there is no guarantee the EU will accept an a50 extension. They won't give it without conditions


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## MrCurry (Mar 11, 2019)

I’ve got to say, I really don’t know much about all this, because I’ve mostly been covering my eyes and shaking my head for the past 18 months.  But because it’s fun to speculate, I’m going to guess that the EU will not be making any last minute concessions, because they probably don’t believe “hard Brexit” will happen. 

That being the case, I can’t see how May’s deal will make it through parliament, even with the last gasp support of brexiteer MPs.  So this will leave us looking down the barrel of a hard Brexit or an article 50 extension.  I’m going to go with A50 extension as most likely, but this has to be granted by the EU side, who already said they won’t give a short extension.

So are we looking at a 2 year extension, with an election followed by 2nd ref? Or am I waaaayyyy off the mark?


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## Libertad (Mar 11, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act the Tories cannot just _call_ a GE. There needs to a vote in the HoC with a 2/3 rds majority.



I know that, it was lazy shorthand because I couldn't really give a fuck. Not my circus, not my monkeys.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 11, 2019)

Libertad said:


> I know that, it was lazy shorthand because I couldn't really give a fuck. Not my circus, not my monkeys.


Sure just wanted to make the point that the FTP act does slightly constrain the governments options here


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 11, 2019)

I see a that quite a few people have gone for "mays deal after a short extension"

there are two problems with this. Firstly  the EU27 have to grant the extension - and they will be very reluctant to have another 3 months of may going round and round in circles trying to force her deal through. They could make an extension conditional on the UK taking a significant step towards resolving the whole shit show - a 2nd ref, a general election, a new government.

Also - i dont know why people think mays deal will get through if she has another crack at it. People have been saying this since dec - that labour brexiteers will come round, that the DUP will be bought off, the all but the hardcore of the ERG will fold for fear of no brexit .
But tuesday will be the _third _time they have tried and failed to get it through - (they pulled the vote in Dec cos they knew they would get defeated). But the opposition to the deal has not softened because absolutely nothing has changed - and nothing will - the backstop is going nowhere and the EU are not going to re-open negotiations.

I think there is a good chance that May gets pushed out after tuesday in the hope that a new leader will be able to change the fundamentals - and also clearing the decks for a General Election.


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## Mr Moose (Mar 11, 2019)

Flavour said:


> No deal can still happen even if they vote to reject it and there is no guarantee the EU will accept an a50 extension. They won't give it without conditions



But Article Fiddy can be cancelled and reissued. Or not reissued.


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## MrCurry (Mar 11, 2019)

Just wondering - what happens if an article 50 extension is requested by the Uk but denied by the EU side? Does that leave the UK with a choice of hard Brexit or withdraw A50 entirely?


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## flypanam (Mar 11, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> Also - i dont know why people think mays deal will get through if she has another crack at it. People have been saying this since dec - that labour brexiteers will come round, that the DUP will be bought off, the all but the hardcore of the ERG will fold for fear of no brexit .
> But tuesday will be the _third _time they have tried and failed to get it through - (they pulled the vote in Dec cos they knew they would get defeated). But the opposition to the deal has not softened because absolutely nothing has changed - and nothing will - the backstop is going nowhere and the EU are not going to re-open negotiations.



The IT did a poll in the north that survey Catholics and Protestants, the findings of which will put the shits up the DUP, even their own base is hacked off with them, dropping to 20% approval. They may have to take note that even their core support in and around East Belfast, Ballymena and Colraine are unhappy. I think the poll even drilled down to the fact that the majority in the north would rather see customs checks between the North and Britain than at the partition border.

Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI Poll | The Irish Times
Inside Politics Podcast | The Irish Times


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## redsquirrel (Mar 11, 2019)

flypanam said:


> The IT did a poll in the north that survey Catholics and Protestants, the findings of which will put the shits up the DUP, even their own base is hacked off with them, dropping to 20% approval.


Yes, and that's another reason why more MPs will be wary about any GE.


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## Gerry1time (Mar 11, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act the Tories cannot just _call_ a GE. There needs to a vote in the HoC with a 2/3 rds majority.
> 
> Considering 2017 I think there will be more than a few on the Tory (and Labour) benches that are wary of a new GE, and both the LDs and tinge have said that they are pushing for a 2nd referendum rather than a VoNC in the Tories (which could lead to a GE). So getting a 2/3rds majority through the HoC is not inevitable.



Yep, fair point, lazy language on my part I confess. I do still think though the FTPA is a bit toothless in reality. If the government decides to go for a GE, and the opposition gives a free vote or whips against it, then there's a whole bunch of shouting 'chicken / what are you scared of' at them that they incur. How can you claim to be a government in waiting when you reject the chance of a GE? But yes, it's not entirely straight forward these days.


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## SpackleFrog (Mar 11, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> Yep, fair point, lazy language on my part I confess. I do still think though the FTPA is a bit toothless in reality. If the government decides to go for a GE, and the opposition gives a free vote or whips against it, then there's a whole bunch of shouting 'chicken / what are you scared of' at them that they incur. How can you claim to be a government in waiting when you reject the chance of a GE? But yes, it's not entirely straight forward these days.



Yeah this is the thing it's quite difficult for the opposition to say no to an election - although I distinctly remember many Labour lefts actually arguing they should in 2017 and that it was "irresponsible" of May to do so at that time.


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## Dogsauce (Mar 11, 2019)

Labour right would be up for it as a chance to eject Corbyn if they don’t get anything other than a landslide. Any other outcomes would be acceptable to achieve this, such as Tory rule forever.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 11, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> Yep, fair point, lazy language on my part I confess. I do still think though the FTPA is a bit toothless in reality. If the government decides to go for a GE, and the opposition gives a free vote or whips against it, then there's a whole bunch of shouting 'chicken / what are you scared of' at them that they incur. How can you claim to be a government in waiting when you reject the chance of a GE? But yes, it's not entirely straight forward these days.


In general I'd agree with you but here I think there's a number of 2nd refers (from all parties) that might decide that the best way to get a 2nd Referendum would be to block a GE. The LD and tinge have already hinted at that with their ruling out of a VoNC in May.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 11, 2019)

I was leaning towards mays deal, expecting a good chunk of Lab to shit it/smite corbyn/mah constituents and vote for it. But now I'm not so sure.


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## SpackleFrog (Mar 11, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> In general I'd agree with you but here I think there's a number of 2nd refers (from all parties) that might decide that the best way to get a 2nd Referendum would be to block a GE. The LD and tinge have already hinted at that with their ruling out of a VoNC in May.



That's a good point but if Tories and Labour both called an election they wouldn't be able to stop it and would look like they were afraid of losing seats if they tried - particularly in the case of the SNP who have a lot of seats to lose and not many to win.


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## ska invita (Mar 11, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act the Tories cannot just _call_ a GE. There needs to a vote in the HoC with a 2/3 rds majority.
> 
> Considering 2017 I think there will be more than a few on the Tory (and Labour) benches that are wary of a new GE, and both the LDs and tinge have said that they are pushing for a 2nd referendum rather than a VoNC in the Tories (which could lead to a GE). So getting a 2/3rds majority through the HoC is not inevitable.


Corbyn / front bench genuinely wants an election so it would pass.

If an election was Tory negotiated no deal v labour soft brexit Labour might win it even.


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## alsoknownas (Mar 11, 2019)

General election is what Corbyn and those around him want too and I assume they would whip hard to support any motion.  Bound to pass if initiated by Torys I would have thought.


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## skyscraper101 (Mar 11, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> It's such a fucking shitshow I've no idea wtf is going to happen.
> 
> Parliament and government have turned the country into an international laughing stock.



This.


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## xenon (Mar 11, 2019)

Anyone think she'll pull the vote again tomorrow. 

Is a vote on ruling out No Deal, actually what happens if May's deal is rejected tomorrow. Or is it speculative / wishful thinking by some? Maybe I've missed where this has been confirmed amongst all the meaningless meaningful votes.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 11, 2019)

xenon said:


> Anyone think she'll pull the vote again tomorrow.
> 
> Is a vote on ruling out No Deal, actually what happens if May's deal is rejected tomorrow. Or is it speculative / wishful thinking by some? Maybe I've missed where this has been confirmed amongst all the meaningless meaningful votes.


There is supposedly a timetable - it all happens this week: Tues May's deal is rejected, Wed there is a vote on No deal, Thu there is a vote on asking to extend.


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## Dogsauce (Mar 11, 2019)

It’d be funny if the margin of defeat was even larger than last time. Unlikely, but still.

I guess if it looks clear that it won’t pass, more likely people won’t support it as they get to signal their brexitiness without any consequence.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 11, 2019)

Can't really vote in this. I can't see May's deal winning tomorrow, and if it loses (if it's put to a vote at all), it seems inevitable then that no deal will be ruled out and an extension requested. The EU has said effectively that such an extension would have to mean the end (finally!!) of May's deal, so that ought to mean the end of May, but that's where logic breaks down and I can't see any further through the filthy brown water.


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## Mr Moose (Mar 11, 2019)

xenon said:


> Anyone think she'll pull the vote again tomorrow.
> 
> Is a vote on ruling out No Deal, actually what happens if May's deal is rejected tomorrow. Or is it speculative / wishful thinking by some? Maybe I've missed where this has been confirmed amongst all the meaningless meaningful votes.



The vote ruling out no deal doesn’t change the fact that leaving is statute. The Govt would still have to do something to stop it. 

The mad old bat and colleagues could still drive us out without a deal, though the Tory Party would combust as it happened.


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## Flavour (Mar 11, 2019)

Who would be mad enough to actually try and withdraw Article 50? Nobody is going to do that. Not may or any possible successor, GE or no GE. The only way A50 could be withdrawn would be if Remain won in a hypothetical 2nd ref which is similarly improbable. It's no deal brexit, as it's the result with fewest obstacles in its path.


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## SpackleFrog (Mar 11, 2019)

Flavour said:


> Who would be mad enough to actually try and withdraw Article 50? Nobody is going to do that. Not may or any possible successor, GE or no GE. The only way A50 could be withdrawn would be if Remain won in a hypothetical 2nd ref which is similarly improbable. It's no deal brexit, as it's the result with fewest obstacles in its path.



May can't do it, but when she's gone it's open season.


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## Flavour (Mar 11, 2019)

It most definitely will not be open season. We've been through this many times. The Tories prioritize keeping their party together over protecting the british economy from the potential chaos of a no deal exit. Withdrawing article 50 would split the party. It isn't going to happen. And Cornyn wouldn't do either in the unlikely event he won a GE


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 11, 2019)

Flavour said:


> Who would be mad enough to actually try and withdraw Article 50? Nobody is going to do that. Not may or any possible successor, GE or no GE. The only way A50 could be withdrawn would be if Remain won in a hypothetical 2nd ref which is similarly improbable. It's no deal brexit, as it's the result with fewest obstacles in its path.


How so? We already know that no deal doesn't have a majority in parliament, so if there is a vote on May's deal tomorrow as planned and it is defeated as expected, there will be a vote on no deal and it will be rejected. That leads to a vote on asking for an extension, which will also pass. I don't see any path to 'no deal' at the moment.


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## Mr Moose (Mar 11, 2019)

Flavour said:


> It most definitely will not be open season. We've been through this many times. The Tories prioritize keeping their party together over protecting the british economy from the potential chaos of a no deal exit. Withdrawing article 50 would split the party. It isn't going to happen. And Cornyn wouldn't do either in the unlikely event he won a GE



A no deal would be equally likely to split it.

Fudge. Like they make in Norway.


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## Flavour (Mar 11, 2019)

A vote to reject no deal does not change the legal default on march 29. An extension would be conditional on Britain changing its red lines. At best you're looking at a no deal exit after a short term bullshit extension where nothing happens.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 11, 2019)

Flavour said:


> A vote to reject no deal does not change the legal default on march 29. An extension would be conditional on Britain changing its red lines. At best you're looking at a no deal exit after a short term bullshit extension where nothing happens.


Or Britain changes its red lines. I think an extension really would be the end of May's deal. It ought to be the end of May, but we'll see. If it does, then all bets are off.


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 11, 2019)

The  UK asking for an extension is pretty much nailed on i would say. the big question is what the EU would want in exchange for granting one - im pretty sure they will not just give may another couple of months keep fucking  about going nowhere. So she may have - finally - run out of road.


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## Gerry1time (Mar 11, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> In general I'd agree with you but here I think there's a number of 2nd refers (from all parties) that might decide that the best way to get a 2nd Referendum would be to block a GE. The LD and tinge have already hinted at that with their ruling out of a VoNC in May.



Just when you thought that one tiny, tiny part of the current political situation might be relatively straightforward...


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## Gerry1time (Mar 11, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> im pretty sure they will not just give may another couple of months keep fucking  about going nowhere.



I really hope she just snaps under the pressure, and asks them for exactly that using exactly those words.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 11, 2019)

I don’t think any of the options will get through parliament but I don’t know what that means? I guess May will have to piss off just to get some movement and then that changes things?  The deal or cancelled or soft brexit  after an extension seem more likely to me than a no deal.


farmerbarleymow said:


> Parliament and government have turned the country into an international laughing stock.


I couldn’t move in Paris for people laughing at me, the rumours are true.


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## marty21 (Mar 11, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Queen wrests control from parliament, revokes a.50


that would get the brexiters into a right old fizz


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## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

marty21 said:


> that would get the brexiters into a right old fizz



She would seem more likely to wrest control from Parliament so that we can frolic on the sunlit uplands of WTO terms.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> sunlit uplands


There was trouble* last time someone used that phrase!


(*racist cartoons).


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## redsquirrel (Mar 11, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Corbyn / front bench genuinely wants an election so it would pass.


That's probably true but I don't think it's certain. Lots of Labour and Tory 2nd refers might resist, the tinge will probably try to block and LDs could vote against.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 11, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> That's probably true but I don't think it's certain. Lots of Labour and Tory 2nd refers might resist, the tinge will probably try to block and LDs could vote against.


Hard for any opposition mp to vote against a GE, though. Hard to justify publicly wanting to prop up a government. You could potentially have a situation where the govt wants a GE but the opposition blocks it.  No. You stay in power whether you want to or not.


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## butchersapron (Mar 11, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> In general I'd agree with you but here I think there's a number of 2nd refers (from all parties) that might decide that the best way to get a 2nd Referendum would be to block a GE. The LD and tinge have already hinted at that with their ruling out of a VoNC in May.


This types know full well a general election will see the end of their voice  It's the last thing they want.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hard for any opposition mp to vote against a GE, though. Hard to justify publicly wanting to prop up a government. You could potentially have a situation where the govt wants a GE but the opposition blocks it.  No. You stay in power whether you want to or not.


Both tinge and the LDs have stated that they won't vote for a VoNC in the government (which could lead to a GE). Logically the same position should apply here, and they would try to sell opposition to a GE as a practical measure to force a 2nd referendum.


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## andysays (Mar 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> How so? We already know that no deal doesn't have a majority in parliament, so if there is a vote on May's deal tomorrow as planned and it is defeated as expected, there will be a vote on no deal and it will be rejected. That leads to a vote on asking for an extension, which will also pass. I don't see any path to 'no deal' at the moment.



Assuming there is a vote for an extension and assuming it does pass, there is still considerable uncertainty about what sort of extension the other EU states would be willing to grant, and under what conditions. See here, for example


> The prediction now in Brussels is that Theresa May will end up asking the EU for an extension - a short one - to this negotiating period. Which she will get (under EU law, all 27 EU leaders need to agree on this). But you may be shocked to hear that the "short" three-month extension being debated in the UK is not the same "short" Brexit delay the EU has in mind right now.





> EU Parliament elections are held between 23 and 26 May. If the UK doesn't want to field its own candidates in the vote, then the current thinking in Brussels is that Brexit has to happen around 20 May.





> And if you are hoping for that infamous "EU blink" before then, I will leave you with the thoughts of a well-placed Brussels official: "Things would be different, if Theresa May had one, clear objective in these last-minute negotiations. A clear concession - that we could grant at a push - that would turn things around definitively in Westminster."





> "But we look at the UK and everyone seems to be fighting everyone - about the backstop or whether Brexit should happen at all; over Norway or no deal and whether Theresa May should stay or go. There are splits in the prime minister's cabinet; we even see UK civil servants disagreeing amongst themselves now. These are UK domestic problems, yet the prime minister looks to us (the EU) to sort it out. We can't. We simply can't."



As things stand, it would be Theresa May asking for an extension, and the sort of extension the EU27 are prepared to offer might not be one which she is prepared to accept.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

I find it interesting how a second referendum is seen as such a terrible option.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 11, 2019)

I notice amid all the harrumphing in the house of commons, May has fucked off to church. Corbyn miffed that they put a minion up against him.

Mother of Parliaments.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> ...May has fucked off to church...



So this is the stage we're at.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> So this is the stage we're at.


'Go back to your constituencies and pray for deliverance'.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> I find it interesting how a second referendum is seen as such a terrible option.


Well, it’s like when people ask you something then when they don’t like the answer keep saying “do you really mean that, though?”

However you voted, it’s surely obvious that flaking and saying “for real, though?” is just the most irritating response.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 11, 2019)

Amid the carnage caused by a bit more paperwork at the border, the likes of Gove and Johnson will be first in line for the underground emergency shelters. Rees Mogg will be wandering round the blackened landscape like the wraith of a demented Duke of Wellington.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, it’s like when people ask you something then when they don’t like the answer keep saying “do you really mean that, though?”
> 
> However you voted, it’s surely obvious that flaking and saying “for real, though?” is just the most irritating response.



Depends on whether what you were promised bears any resemblance to what gets delivered.
No one objects massively to Amazon having a returns policy.


----------



## Supine (Mar 11, 2019)

A general election wouldn't solve the brexit issue anyway. Brexit doesn't fall on the left / right spectrum so it wouldnt give a mandate for brexit. 

2nd ref here we come


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

Supine said:


> A general election wouldn't solve the brexit issue anyway. Brexit doesn't fall on the left / right spectrum so it wouldnt give a mandate for brexit.



Indeed.  It's a Tory internecine squabble that has mutated.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, it’s like when people ask you something then when they don’t like the answer keep saying “do you really mean that, though?”
> 
> However you voted, it’s surely obvious that flaking and saying “for real, though?” is just the most irritating response.


Would you like tea of coffee?
- Tea please.
...
My government has spent the last 2 years, entirely focused on sorting your brew
- Great, can I have my tea please?
We believe this tea is the best possible beverage that can be achieved
- Sounds good, so can I have my brew? Getting a bit parched now.

...
Erm, are you sure you really want a brew?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> Indeed.  It's a Tory internecine squabble that has mutated.


metastasized


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> metastasized



Depends where you draw the limits of the 'host' in your analogy, but that will also do.


----------



## chilango (Mar 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> 'Go back to your constituencies and pray for deliverance'.



Was about to say her church isn't actually in her constituency...but when I double checked I'm astonished to see how close to Reading the Maidenhead  constituency comes


----------



## kebabking (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> Depends on whether what you were promised bears any resemblance to what gets delivered.
> No one objects massively to Amazon having a returns policy.



Unfortunately, that's a very _remainy _version - 2nd Refers claim it's all about giving the public the final say, however the public (broadly) think they've already had the final say, and they know that a second referendum isn't being put to them in order to ensure democratic legitimacy, they are being told to change their minds because they are thicky racists.

To use your Amazon example, it's like Amazon have, through gritted teeth, sent you a dress/bike/book having repeatedly told you that it wouldn't suit you, and are now demanding that you return it because it make you look fat/thick and racist.

There's also the issue of a complete absence of trust or good faith that those who claim that were Leave to again win, that it would finally be implemented. Leave won last time, but remainy politicians have fought it tooth and nail, so why should anyone believe they wouldn't do so again?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Unfortunately, that's a very _remainy _version - 2nd Refers claim it's all about giving the public the final say, however the public (broadly) think they've already had the final say, and they know that a second referendum isn't being put to them in order to ensure democratic legitimacy, they are being told to change their minds because they are thicky racists.
> 
> To use your Amazon example, it's like Amazon have, through gritted teeth, sent you a dress/bike/book having repeatedly told you that it wouldn't suit you, and are now demanding that you return it because it make you look fat/thick and racist.
> 
> There's also the issue of a complete absence of trust or good faith that those who claim that were Leave to again win, that it would finally be implemented. Leave won last time, but remainy politicians have fought it tooth and nail, so why should anyone believe they wouldn't do so again?



Bollocks.  It's perfectly normal in places more used to referendums to have a referendum in principle and then a referendum once details have been settled.  No one has to change their mind if they don't want to, regardless of how fat, thick and/or racist they are.

The idea that nothing has changed in the last 2 and a half years and that you are asking the exact same question again is also bollocks.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> Depends on whether what you were promised bears any resemblance to what gets delivered.
> No one objects massively to Amazon having a returns policy.


That’s once it’s been delivered. Right now we aren’t even at the stage of “where’s my stuff”; we’re at “please allow 19 days for delivery”.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 11, 2019)

kebabking said:
			
		

> There's also the issue of a complete absence of trust or good faith that those who claim that were Leave to again win, that it would finally be implemented. *Leave won last time, but remainy politicians have fought it tooth and nail, so why should anyone believe they wouldn't do so again?*



kebabking -- So it's all Remainers' fault that Brexit hasn't happened yet?? 

That take on events surely underplays how badly the parcel of incompetence known as the Government** have gone about Brexit. You have said that Remainers have fought tooth and nail to stop Leave happening, but Leavers in the Government -- and Parliament -- bear at least some responsibilty.

**whether ministers are Remainy or Brexity, the lack of Brexit so far is much more a general Tory cockup than a Remain conspiracy, I'd say.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s once it’s been delivered. Right now we aren’t even at the stage of “where’s my stuff”; we’re at “please allow 19 days for delivery”.



After well over a year of confirmations that you’ve actually bought a bucket of cold sick.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> Bollocks.  It's perfectly normal in places more used to referendums to have a referendum in principle and then a referendum once details have been settled.  No one has to change their mind if they don't want to, regardless of how fat, thick and/or racist they are.
> 
> The idea that nothing has changed in the last 2 and a half years and that you are asking the exact same question again is also bollocks.


I wouldn't have a problem with there being a 2nd ref on the terms of the deal, _providing it had been built in from the outset_ (though I'm personally neither a brexiteer nor a remainer, just a common or garden anticapitalist). But this would be something very different - _a referendum to get round the politicians not delivering what the first ref decided upon._


----------



## tommers (Mar 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with there being a 2nd ref on the terms of the deal, _providing it had been built in from the outset_ (though I'm personally neither a brexiteer nor a remainer, just a common or garden anticapitalist). But this would be something very different - _a referendum to get round the politicians not delivering what the first ref decided upon._



If they haven't delivered it then what's the next step?  Just wait until they do?  Or take whatever fucking nonsense they decide to serve up?

What if they can't?  Do we just do this forever?  Cos after two years of it I'm not sure how much more I can take.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with there being a 2nd ref on the terms of the deal, _providing it had been built in from the outset_ (though I'm personally neither a brexiteer nor a remainer, just a common or garden anticapitalist). But this would be something very different - _a referendum to get round the politicians not delivering what the first ref decided upon._



Yeah, that’s a common understanding of how advisory referendums work out in grown-up land.

I’m personally not a Brexiter or Remainer either, but I’m astonished by how some fusty old lefties manage to cling to the delusion that their sworn enemies were somehow going to deliver something in their best interests.

It was as if there was no possible outcome that was worse than not leaving the EU asap, under any conditions.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

I should point out that I'm not under any illusion that a second referendum at this point would necessarily be a "good thing", or that anything goes "back in the box" at this point.  And the Remainer delusion that "business as usual" was so great is something mostly only shared among people who were doing pretty well out of the status quo.

I am, however, a little surprised that more parties aren't pushing for it.  Though I guess there's a fear of the same result.  Or a more specific question being asked and the majority of the country deciding it wants to eat worms, ideally after digging up Winston Churchill.

Some kind of really "soft" Brexit is going to wind up a whole load of people, so it wouldn't surprise me if a version of May's deal is where we end up, in the event she isn't unseated before the extension ends.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> After well over a year of confirmations that you’ve actually bought a bucket of cold sick.


The analogy breaks down when we think of the electorate as one buyer. (I think the problem is the narrow majority. It makes some people think “if only”).  The trouble is that the people who think Brexit is a bad deal and that any rewards are outweighed by the downsides are probably people who already thought that before casting their vote.  People were told there’d be downsides, and they voted Leave anyway.

But there’s no justification for rerunning the vote just because the result is one you feel like saying “told you so” to.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The analogy breaks down when we think of the electorate as one buyer. (I think the problem is the narrow majority. It makes some people think “if only”).  The trouble is that the people who think Brexit is a bad deal and that any rewards are outweighed by the downsides are probably people who already thought that before casting their vote.  People were told there’d be downsides, and they voted Leave anyway.
> 
> But there’s no justification for rerunning the vote just because the result is one you feel like saying “told you so” to.



All analogies break down somewhere.
Most people I know who voted Brexit were not thinking of downsides, they've had a lot of time to be convinced that they were, though.  
Not all of them have bought that line.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> All analogies break down somewhere.
> Most people I know who voted Brexit were not thinking of downsides, they've had a lot of time to be convinced that they were, though.
> Not all of them have bought that line.


I don’t really want to go back and forth over this for the millionth time. I honestly can’t see any justification for a second referendum at this point. (And I voted Remain).  Others are completely convinced it’s the obvious move.  That can’t be squared.  I think they’re wrong, and that having a second referendum would cause more problems than the one they hope to solve.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I don’t really want to go back and forth over this for the millionth time. I honestly can’t see any justification for a second referendum at this point. (And I voted Remain).  Others are completely convinced it’s the obvious move.  That can’t be squared.  I think they’re wrong, and that having a second referendum would cause more problems than the one they hope to solve.



I'm just surprised so few people are pushing for it.  It wasn't really clear how any deliberation on the deal was going to play out, but that was back when everything was going to be SO easy.

Now we've gone from having squillions of extra money in the bank to hopefully having adequate food, and the best the cunts can offer is to say "yeah, but you're not that thick are you?  you knew we were lying really, didn't you?".  And it's quite amazing how many people are perfectly happy with that.


----------



## andysays (Mar 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I don’t really want to go back and forth over this for the millionth time. I honestly can’t see any justification for a second referendum at this point. (And I voted Remain).  Others are completely convinced it’s the obvious move.  That can’t be squared.  I think they’re wrong, and that having a second referendum would cause more problems than the one they hope to solve.


Maybe 8ball thinks you just need to be given another chance to re-think the issue and give your answer again...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> I'm just surprised so few people are pushing for it.



You are? 

Blimey, you seriously think another ref would solve anything?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> Maybe 8ball thinks you just need to be given another chance to re-think the issue and give your answer again...


I am the sort of person who when pestered about something will respond “OK, no, then”.


----------



## andysays (Mar 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I am the sort of person who when pestered about something will respond “OK, no, then”.


Oh, come on danny, you know you don't really mean that...


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> Aw, come on danny, you know you don't really mean that...


Ok, no, then.


----------



## andysays (Mar 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Ok, no, then.



Are you sure you've taken into account that circumstances have completely changed since your previous answer?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 11, 2019)




----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> You are?
> 
> Blimey, you seriously think another ref would solve anything?



Fuck’s sake. 

Read often, do you?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> Fuck’s sake.
> 
> Read often, do you?



I do.

I also understand why there's no majority in the house for a second ref, because it'll cause more problems and solve nothing.

Understand often, do you?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> I'm just surprised so few people are pushing for it.  It wasn't really clear how any deliberation on the deal was going to play out, but that was back when everything was going to be SO easy.
> 
> Now we've gone from having squillions of extra money in the bank to hopefully having adequate food, and the best the cunts can offer is to say "yeah, but you're not that thick are you?  you knew we were lying really, didn't you?".  And it's quite amazing how many people are perfectly happy with that.



Again, a very _remainy _viewpoint - arch remainers obsess about the campaign and not about the voters, which is perhaps why remain lost.

Very few of those I know who voted leave believed it was all sunlit uplands with no aggro and no costs.

A bit less facination with Messrs Johnson and Farage and a bit more with people in Stockton, Kidderminster, Plymouth might have done the remain campaign - which I voted for - a great deal of good...


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> Bollocks.  It's perfectly normal in places more used to referendums to have a referendum in principle and then a referendum once details have been settled.


Really can you give us some examples?

EDIT: This isn't the case in either Australia or Ireland (the two countries whose referendums I'm most familiar with).



Wilf said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with there being a 2nd ref on the terms of the deal, _providing it had been built in from the outset_ (though I'm personally neither a brexiteer nor a remainer, just a common or garden anticapitalist). But this would be something very different - _a referendum to get round the politicians not delivering what the first ref decided upon._


Yes this is the point. Only the truly partisan would not see a 2nd ref as an attempt to stop the UK leaving the EU.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 11, 2019)

> *Theresa May dashes to Strasbourg in bid for Brexit compromise*
> PM to meet Juncker as Merkel says a ‘very important offer’ has been made to Britain



from the gaurdian. 

I rekon she will turn up , rush into Junkers office full of expectation and he'll say "Id like  to offer you this beautifully presented pyramid of  Ferrero Rocher" and then fall about laughing before posting it on you tube.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 11, 2019)

It'll be about extending A50 I imagine.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 11, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> It'll be about extending A50 I imagine.


Reliant on a subsequent compromised cross party soft brexit.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes this is the point. Only the truly partisan would not see a 2nd ref as an attempt to stop the UK leaving the EU.



Yes, it would be a major (though dangerous) lever for the 48% and the remainers in Parliament, many of whom think a victory would put the genie back in the bottle.  As I had attempted to explain.

As for whether it is a very remainy point to suggest a discrepancy between a hugh injection of cash and food poverty...


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Reliant on a subsequent compromised cross party soft brexit.



Which will solve everything and deliver us unto the rolling meadows of majesic unicorn.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 11, 2019)

Looks like there could be an '11th hour' thing going on, in true EU tradition.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Looks like there could be an '11th hour' thing going on, in true EU tradition.


Another ref if we're abiding by that tradition


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Another ref if we're abiding by that tradition



Or another two..


----------



## FiFi (Mar 11, 2019)

There's no "who the hell knows" option.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

FiFi said:


> There's no "who the hell knows" option.



I was none the wiser after a whole lot of talking on C4 news earlier...


----------



## Poot (Mar 11, 2019)

I think we've all been bloody patient, considering.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 11, 2019)

“Legally binding changes agreed” it seems. (BBC)

'Legally binding' changes to EU deal agreed


----------



## agricola (Mar 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> “Legally binding changes agreed” it seems. (BBC)
> 
> 'Legally binding' changes to EU deal agreed



Keir Starmer just asked David Liddington if any words had actually changed in the Withdrawl Agreement.  No answer was provided.


----------



## FiFi (Mar 11, 2019)

This is probably the fudge we all knew would happen eventually.
To be honest,I wish the politicians had got to it sooner, and without all the nonsense!


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 11, 2019)

agricola said:


> Keir Starmer just asked David Liddington if any words had actually changed in the Withdrawl Agreement.  No answer was provided.


Yeah, the version of the report that was there had no details other than the headline and “refresh later for more”.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> “Legally binding changes agreed” it seems. (BBC)
> 
> 'Legally binding' changes to EU deal agreed



What would that mean for the Irish Border though if the UK had the power to leave the CU?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 11, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> What would that mean for the Irish Border though if the UK had the power to leave the CU?


There’s nothing about anything on the webpage at time of posting. And I’ve not got the news on. So I’ve no idea what, if anything, the government thinks it has obtained.

My guess (and therefore probably wrong) is that it’ll be a form of words that can be sold as just about enough for a version of May’s deal to go through tomorrow.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 11, 2019)

Good luck with that, Government!


----------



## kebabking (Mar 11, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> What would that mean for the Irish Border though if the UK had the power to leave the CU?



Probably something better than if there's a hard border in just over two weeks?

It  always seemed somewhat shortsighted for the Irish government to push so hard for a text that ruled out any possible border in two years that they achieved one now....


----------



## Wilf (Mar 11, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Again, a very _remainy _viewpoint - arch remainers obsess about the campaign and not about the voters, which is perhaps why remain lost.
> 
> Very few of those I know who voted leave believed it was all sunlit uplands with no aggro and no costs.
> 
> A bit less facination with Messrs Johnson and Farage and a bit more with people in Stockton, Kidderminster, Plymouth might have done the remain campaign - which I voted for - a great deal of good...


Spot on.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yeah, the version of the report that was there had no details other than the headline and “refresh later for more”.



Looking at Newsnight, it sounds as if the likely outcome is “bollocks without  end”.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> My guess (and therefore probably wrong) is that it’ll be a form of words that can be sold as just about enough for a version of May’s deal to go through tomorrow.


 I've always thought May would get _something_ through, with a mixture of running the clock down, just keeping going, a few knighthoods and the basic psychology of MPs who would protest long and hard about the betrayal of Brexit and then line up in the 'national interest'. However I'm really not sure where the collective psychology of tory MPs is now at. I'm no longer convinced that their boredom/despair will _necessarily_ make them more pliant.  Just heard the chair of the erg making very negative noises about the latest 'deal', though promising to look at it carefully. If they put the deal to the vote tomorrow - and as always, that's not certain - there will certainly movement towards May, but my guess is not enough. Though perhaps enough for her to think she will get there with one more push (and an A50 extension even).

AKA, I ain't got a clue.


----------



## agricola (Mar 11, 2019)

May and Juncker's statements followed by what sounds like questions from a disbelieving Press.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 11, 2019)

Well...she hasn't.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 11, 2019)

She's got fuck all.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 11, 2019)

If there was any thing juicy they wouldve announced it a day earlier at least - this is like a trader down the market flashing something that looks expensive and immediately hiding it in a bag with the hope you dont stop and look too closely.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 11, 2019)

kebabking said:


> A bit less facination with Messrs Johnson and Farage and a bit more with people in Stockton, Kidderminster, Plymouth might have done the remain campaign - which I voted for - a great deal of good...


… and on this again, I don't get much sense that either Remain generally or Labour remainers in particularly have got this even now. Certainly not in terms of even nominal political overtures towards Stockton et al.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 11, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> She's got fuck all.



I get the feeling like Wilf that it’s going to take another push or two if it’s possible at all.

I can’t see any of that ERG lot budging an inch tomorrow.


----------



## agricola (Mar 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> I get the feeling like Wilf that it’s going to take another push or two if it’s possible at all.
> 
> I can’t see any of that ERG lot budging an inch tomorrow.



Literally the only thing in that hour that will have spooked them is Juncker saying that if the vote is lost tomorrow, there may not be any Brexit.  The contributions of May and Liddington will have done nothing.


----------



## JimW (Mar 12, 2019)

copliker said:


> View attachment 164117


Looks like City of Sadness, what a great film.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 12, 2019)

It’s just a shit pantomime. Fuck off and do some real politics. Bored of this game.

Somewhere, someone will be milking a lot of cash out of all this uncertainty. I doubt it’s any of us.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 12, 2019)

Is there not a possibility that it was actually done well from their perspective? That the EU blinked? That this is what they needed. That the EU is basically fucked in its current iteration. That the myth that individual polities must try in vain to negotiate. Does Britain get favourable terms as it has in the past, if so, why? A struggle between factions of capitalism?

You'll note, that is a series of questions rather than bold professions. There are really only 3 powers under the EU umbrella. I don't see how the others will fall into line now. I think they have basically achieved what they wanted. Not that it fills me with much other than indifference.

My logic is that they can't, surely, be so bumbling and slapdash as they present to the few anoraks who are paying attention with any degree of scrutiny. In terms of predictions then FWIW: the British establishment's hand will be strengthened and they will not come to the cliff edge. And (for all I know) the shops will stay open, capitalism will function and, ultimately, the state will continue its domination on behalf of its backers.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 12, 2019)

Humberto said:


> Is there not a possibility that it was actually done well from their perspective? That the EU blinked?


I don't think the EU's "blinked" but from the perspective of the Government I think they're in a better position than most on here seem to. 


danny la rouge said:


> My guess (and therefore probably wrong) is that it’ll be a form of words that can be sold as just about enough for a version of May’s deal to go through tomorrow.


Or it's a close enough loss that May can bring it back for a thread go after a more cajoling/bribery etc. 

If the DUP decide that they've got enough then I think a lot of the Tory opposition will melt away, and I'm not sure the DUP aren't starting to buckle, As flypanam has pointed out even the DUP base is starting to get pissed off with them. This gives them an out - they can tell their members that they've delivered Brexit on their terms, that they've not been pushed about.


----------



## collectordave (Mar 12, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Just wondering - what happens if an article 50 extension is requested by the Uk but denied by the EU side? Does that leave the UK with a choice of hard Brexit or withdraw A50 entirely?



Yes!

Applying  the "whats in it for me" principle the EU would like to see something in return for granting an extension, a few MP's saying we can negotiate better will, I feel, not be enough as the EU allready have a deal. Something will have to change in Britain. GE or 2nd ref.

Of course the brinkmanship will continue right up to the last minute and if I was dealing with grown ups Britain would decide to stay in. However with the little bits I have seen over the last few months the British government seems more like a kindergarten (German word meaning kiddie garden very European).

For me all bets are off.


----------



## andysays (Mar 12, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I don't think the EU's "blinked" but from the perspective of the Government I think they're in a better position than most on here seem to.
> *Or it's a close enough loss that May can bring it back for a thread go after a more cajoling/bribery etc. *
> 
> If the DUP decide that they've got enough then I think a lot of the Tory opposition will melt away, and I'm not sure the DUP aren't starting to buckle, As flypanam has pointed out even the DUP base is starting to get pissed off with them. This gives them an out - they can tell their members that they've delivered Brexit on their terms, that they've not been pushed about.


Not according to Juncker


> Mr Juncker also warned MPs that they would be putting everything at risk if they voted down the deal. "In politics sometimes you get a second chance," he said. "It is what we do with that second chance that counts. There will be no third [or even thread] chance." He added: "Let us speak crystal clear about the choice - it is this deal or Brexit might not happen at all."


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 12, 2019)

andysays said:


> Not according to Juncker


He's referring to changes made by the EU. I was arguing that if it gets close then there are UK based options that May could make (or appear to make) that might get some on board - extra money for regions, "insurances" given on environmental legislation etc.

In any case back in Jan the EU was saying there could not be any changes. If they think that a deal is possible they will be willing to make some minor concessions.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

Clearly it's a compromise, the UK wouldn't be able to just walk away from the Back-Stop, but there would be an "arbitration mechanism", if the UK felt the EU wasn't playing fair, which is a possible method of escape, although it leaves a lot of ifs and buts, and the six million dollar question is if that's enough or not?

Looks like it's going to depend on what the Attorney General, and the eight lawyers in the ERG, have to say on these new documents, if they declare they are enough to lift the threat of the UK being trapped permanently in the Back-Stop, that will probably be enough to win over the DUP and the ERG, then trigger the rest of the Tory backbenchers and a few Labour leave MPs to support it, and thus it will pass.

If they advise it's not enough, May is completely fucked.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 12, 2019)

I think the DUP rather than the ERG are the key here. If the DUP say yes then it gives lots of Tory eurosceptics an out to vote for the deal. 


The statements the DUP are making today are rather different from those in Dec/Jan


> The leader of the Democratic Unionist party, *Arlene Foster*, whose MPs the prime minister relies on to get legislation through parliament, said: “These publications need careful analysis. We will be taking appropriate advice, scrutinising the text line by line and forming our own judgement.”
> 
> *Nigel Dodds*, the Westminster leader of the Democratic Unionist Party said: “All of this will need to be taken together and analysed very carefully.”


----------



## grit (Mar 12, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Somewhere, someone will be milking a lot of cash out of all this uncertainty. I doubt it’s any of us.



It’s already made, consumer facing businesses were shorted earlier in the process.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Mar 12, 2019)

I'm going "General election". Regardless of anyone's opinion about the rights and wrongs of Brexit, May is making a massive mess of everything, totally knackering any chance the UK has of a reasonable deal if it leaves the EU, and totally shagging any possible relationship with the EU should remain actually happen.
She should resign as soon as possible, go to the queen to request parliament be dissolved, then call a general election.


----------



## maomao (Mar 12, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> She should resign as soon as possible, go to the queen to request parliament be dissolved, then call a general election.


That's not how general elections get called anymore.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

Whatever happens today one of my predictions will have been right


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

maomao said:


> That's not how general elections get called anymore.



Also, the chances of May finding some integrity behind the sofa don’t seem too great.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I think the DUP rather than the ERG are the key here. If the DUP say yes then it gives lots of Tory eurosceptics an out to vote for the deal.
> 
> 
> The statements the DUP are making today are rather different from those in Dec/Jan



dunno - there are just saying "we will need to read it carefully"  - but if - as most of the analysis is saying - its the same deal with some meaningless tweaks. They will come back and say "we have read it and have decided its still a pile of shit"


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Looks like it's going to depend on what the Attorney General, and the eight lawyers in the ERG, have to say on these new documents, if they declare they are enough to lift the threat of the UK being trapped permanently in the Back-Stop, that will probably be enough to win over the DUP and the ERG, then trigger the rest of the Tory backbenchers and a few Labour leave MPs to support it, and thus it will pass.
> 
> If they advise it's not enough, May is completely fucked.


Which is why releasing the documents at midnight before the vote looks like theres little substance in them. If they were substantial they'd have allowed time for them to be scrutinised and reflected on


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

i suspect that the "last minute agreement" with the EU was planned weeks ago - gifting may with with a batch of sycophantic headlines and giving mps little time to look at the details and so bounce them into voting it through.
Suspect it will be exposed  fairly quickly as the desperate and shabby act of hucksterism it so clearly is.


----------



## agricola (Mar 12, 2019)




----------



## Gerry1time (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> i suspect that the "last minute agreement" with the EU was planned weeks ago - gifting may with with a batch of sycophantic headlines and giving mps little time to look at the details and so bounce them into voting it through.
> Suspect it will be exposed  fairly quickly as the desperate and shabby act of hucksterism it so clearly is.



Yep, that’d be my take on it too. The constant ‘will she go / won’t she go back to strasbourg’ rumours and briefings of the last 36 hours have all been so stage managed. It’s all part of the only plan she’s had for ages now, run the clock down and bounce people into a crap deal. Even the hand kissing photo from last night looked staged. It’s all totally in the EU’s advantage, to get through the deal they want us to sign. 

Whether MPs will see through it may not be the point though. Rather, does it give them enough plausible deniability to vote it through then act all surprised later that it was still shit? Will this act of stage management give them the tools to do their own stage management in their constituencies. 

Hopefully not, and if *this attempt* fails, surely it’s the end of the road. Surely...


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> dunno - there are just saying "we will need to read it carefully"  - but if - as most of the analysis is saying - its the same deal with some meaningless tweaks. They will come back and say "we have read it and have decided its still a pile of shit"


Will they, when that increases the chances of either a GE or a 2nd referendum, when it could lead to no deal or a postponement of the UK leaving. I don't think that is necessarily true. 

They ultimately might reject it but the fact that the this is the "same deal with some meaningless tweaks" that they rejected in Jan doesn't mean that they might not accept it now.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Will they, when that increases the chances of either a GE or a 2nd referendum, when it could lead to no deal or a postponement of the UK leaving. I don't think that is necessarily true.
> 
> They ultimately might reject it but the fact that the this is the "same deal with some meaningless tweaks" that they rejected in Jan doesn't mean that they might not accept it now.


Definitely - and thats what i expected months ago - that the deal would squeeze at the end once implications became avoidable
But the scale of defeat last time...thats a lot to turn around


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Will they, when that increases the chances of either a GE or a 2nd referendum, when it could lead to no deal or a postponement of the UK leaving. I don't think that is necessarily true.
> 
> They ultimately might reject it but the fact that the this is the "same deal with some meaningless tweaks" that they rejected in Jan doesn't mean that they might not accept it now.



yeah - that will be a factor - but if everyone and his uncle is saying "nothing's changed" (esp on the backstop) they politically wont be able to - even if they wanted to. not sure how worried the DUP are about a GE - their base aren't going anywhere else and you don't get much in the way of swing voters in norn iron.
And i dont think the DUP will actually give much of a toss if brexit gets postponed or cancelled - the status quo is fine for them - and  brexit is actually pretty unpopular even with their own supporters.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> yeah - that will be a factor - but if everyone and his uncle is saying "nothing's changed" (esp on the backstop) they politically wont be able to - even if they wanted to. not sure how worried the DUP are about a GE - their base aren't going anywhere else and you don't get much in the way of swing voters in norn iron.
> And i dont think the DUP will actually give much of a toss if brexit gets postponed or cancelled - the status quo is fine for them - and  brexit is actually pretty unpopular even with their own supporters.



True, but
BREXIT SHOCK: Two thirds of Northern Ireland voters REJECT DUP's stance on EU exit

Apol for the express link...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> yeah - that will be a factor - but if everyone and his uncle is saying "nothing's changed" (esp on the backstop) they politically wont be able to - even if they wanted to. not sure how worried the DUP are about a GE - their base aren't going anywhere else and you don't get much in the way of swing voters in norn iron.
> And i dont think the DUP will actually give much of a toss if brexit gets postponed or cancelled - the status quo is fine for them - and  brexit is actually pretty unpopular even with their own supporters.


It never really made sense for them to support brexit in the first place. Good distraction from the heating scandal though and the fact that foster is a corrupt idiot.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Definitely - and thats what i expected months ago - that the deal would squeeze at the end once implications became avoidable
> But the scale of defeat last time...thats a lot to turn around


Yes I agree on both points. I'd be somewhat surprised if it got through this time. My take is that the government are hoping that they get enough movement that it becomes a credible deal and they can bring it back for a third time after making a few more internal concessions.


Kaka Tim said:


> yeah - that will be a factor - but if everyone and his uncle is saying "nothing's changed" (esp on the backstop) they politically wont be able to - even if they wanted to. not sure how worried the DUP are about a GE - their base aren't going anywhere else and you don't get much in the way of swing voters in norn iron.


That's not the case. Look at the polling flypanam  posted earlier in the thread, there is growing dissatisfaction with their position. Now it's possible that those voters will go back to the DUP at a GE but is that a chance they want to risk? Look at the last set of Assembly elections.

I think it's also worth remembering that Foster isn't Paisley, the DUP of 2017 isn't the DUP of 1997. They've been in the government of NI for a considerable time now, they're no longer an opposition unionist party, they are no longer the outsiders. Are the current leadership willing to risk their position and power in a way the older guard would have.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

If I was betting on it, I’d still guess on an extension for A50, but going by the glacial rate of real progress we’d need a minimum of 80 years.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 12, 2019)

I'm pretty much with Andrew Sparrow's take


> *1 - How many MPs will Theresa May win over with the concessions she won last night? *Some 118 Tories voted against her deal in the first meaningful vote in January. Many of them, worried by the prospect of Brexit being “stolen” by the second referendum campaign, seem to be keen to find reasons why they can be persuaded to vote for her deal now. There don’t seem to be any Westminster observers who expect May to win the vote tonight (assuming it is not delayed for 24 hours, as Iain Duncan Smith said it should be, to give everyone more time to read the new documents), but she could lose by a lot less than the record 230-vote government defeat we saw in January.
> 
> *2 - Will May do well enough to persuade MPs, and the EU, that she has a chance of getting her deal over the line in a third meaningful vote? *It is impossible to know for sure what the benchmark will be, not least a figure that might look potentially disappointing now (a defeat by 100-odd votes) could, by 7pm, look rather different, because context and expectations will have changed. But if May only loses by 50 (implying she would only need to change the minds of 25 MPs in a third vote), that will probably feel like a very good result. And it is hard to see how she will spin a defeat by 150 or more as anything other than another disaster.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

If nothing else, for us bored and powerless spectators squeezing miniscule drips of joy out of their discomfort May's deal getting through would be an awfully deflating anticlimax.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

Im not one to say What IS She Wearing but wtf? is she trying to play up to the image of a  Brexiteer


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Im not one to say What IS She Wearing but wtf? is she trying to play up to the image of a  Brexiteer


Too Frenchified. Should have worn a bowler.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> If nothing else, for us bored and powerless spectators squeezing miniscule drips of joy out of their discomfort May's deal getting through would be an awfully deflating anticlimax.


anticlimax from what? what does brexit orgasm look like?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> anticlimax from what? what does brexit orgasm look like?


Imagine deliberately thinking of Thatcher as you come to punish yourself. It's worse than that.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 12, 2019)

Poi E said:


> True, but
> BREXIT SHOCK: Two thirds of Northern Ireland voters REJECT DUP's stance on EU exit
> 
> Apol for the express link...



That one third still support them suggest their base is probably still onside. 

You could probably take a poll on any issue in NI and two thirds would tell you the DUP are wrong.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> anticlimax from what? what does brexit orgasm look like?


no need to answer chilango , i think i get what you mean now (its early)


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> That's not the case. Look at the polling flypanam  posted earlier in the thread, there is growing dissatisfaction with their position. Now it's possible that those voters will go back to the DUP at a GE but is that a chance they want to risk? Look at the last set of Assembly elections.
> 
> I think it's also worth remembering that Foster isn't Paisley, the DUP of 2017 isn't the DUP of 1997. They've been in the government of NI for a considerable time now, they're no longer an opposition unionist party, they are no longer the outsiders. Are the current leadership willing to risk their position and power in a way the older guard would have.



Im sure they are worried - but im not sure where the electoral threat will come - a revived UUP? or a more hardline breakaway? I guess what will be interesting will be how they act if no deal is imminent - cos nobody in NI bar the loyalist headbangers thinks that is a good idea - which leaves the DUP in a bit of a bind.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

Theresa May faces Commons showdown after securing 'legally binding' changes in last-ditch Brexit talks - follow live


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> anticlimax from what? what does brexit orgasm look like?



Well, given as any resolution is going to be one that fucks us all over some more, I'm taking meagre solace in watching them fuck themselves over (however fleetingly) in the process.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Well, given as any resolution is going to be one that fucks us all over some more, I'm taking meagre solace in watching them fuck themselves over (however fleetingly) in the process.


For me Mays deal has the biggest casualty rate...I'll be gutted if it passes.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Im not one to say What IS She Wearing but wtf? is she trying to play up to the image of a  Brexiteer


Great coat, the hat was a mistake.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Im not one to say What IS She Wearing but wtf? is she trying to play up to the image of a  Brexiteer



All for Jean!


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> For me Mays deal has the biggest casualty rate...I'll be gutted if it passes.



Although if it does it merely starts again, but without that second referendum malarkey, which will be a relief. 

The final state of relations is barely marked out and so hard or soft options will still be available. It’s just that it won’t be May in charge.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> It’s just that it won’t be May in charge.


wouldn't bet on this


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

If this passes I reckon she's safe for a bit. She'll be Thatcher reborn again, the lady not for turning.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

Can anyone get beyond the Telegraph's paywall, and see if this statement is from a international lawyer, or just a journalist's view? 



> The point is that if the UK lodges the Declaration, either at the UN or as part of the Withdrawal Agreement ratification process and the EU does not object (and it has agreed it will not), then it will become a document with legal force and implicit EU agreement.



What are the 'legally-binding changes' to Theresa May's Brexit deal - and will they persuade enough MPs to vote for it?


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> If this passes I reckon she's safe for a bit. She'll be Thatcher reborn again, the lady not for turning.



The headbangers won’t support her without absolute assurance that she goes. She delivered Brexit, there’s your legacy now fuck off.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

I don't know why anyone would take any assurances from May, absolute or otherwise, at this point. But if they do, more fool them (and you).


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

have you missed the last two years of politics or something?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 12, 2019)

Agreed. So far the only thing she's shown the slightest aptitude for is digging in and refusing to budge. Who's going to listen to her saying whatever and think 'well she definitely won't dig in and refuse to budge'?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Can anyone get beyond the Telegraph's paywall, and see if this statement is from a international lawyer, or just a journalist's view?
> 
> 
> 
> What are the 'legally-binding changes' to Theresa May's Brexit deal - and will they persuade enough MPs to vote for it?


It's essentially the Telegraph's official take on what was agreed last night. So not from an international lawyer but not quite just a journalist's view either. It's really very dull, but this seems to be the important point:

The deal hasn't been reopened as such, but the UK has been allowed to make a Unilateral Statement that it appears does have some kind of legal force while not being legally binding. It has _moral force_, it appears, which matters in this kind of stuff. 



> It recalls that the Irish backstop is only ever intended as a temporary measure and that if the EU fails to come an agreement to remove the backstop "in breach" of its promise to use "best endeavours" to do so, the UK would consider that the backstop had become de facto permanent.
> 
> 
> If this happened, the UK says this could "ultimately lead to disapplication of obligations under the Protocol" via the independent arbitration mechanism set out in the Withdrawal Agreement and the grievance procedure in the Irish backstop protocol.
> ...



What was agreed last night is basically a lot of hot air. Then there's this:



> *Para 6 - commitment to a new arrangement by 2020*
> This paragraph is the most obvious 'win' for the British side and surprised UK negotiators that they were able to secure it.
> 
> It says that the EU shares the UK ambitious aspirations that 'alternative arrangements' should be in place by December 31 2020 to deliver on the Irish border to obviate the need for the backstop.




More hot air. Will it make a difference to the vote? Fuck knows.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

Interesting that it's the remainiacs' (PV) lawyers that have been first out of the traps to rubbish May's fudge(s).


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Interesting that it's the remainiacs' (PV) lawyers that have been first out of the traps to rubbish May's fudge(s).


Why? They were always going to rubbish it. If it goes through the PV is totally off the table. The brexit lot have a much more difficult decision to make.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

Well after reading the Telegraph's summary, there aren't even fudges in there, or at least no further fudges, just a clarification of the really very fudgy nature of the fudges already in there. May's deal is still May's deal, but with an added assurance from the EU that they will try _really hard _to make it work. That appears to be it.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> have you missed the last two years of politics or something?



Maybe you have. Maybe you have missed the speculation on the assurances she has already given that she will go. She can’t get the deal across the line without their support. What do you suppose the price would be?

She hangs on like a limpet, but like any other politician her time is limited.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

I haven't missed the speculation, I just don't think any of her assurances mean anything, as evidenced by the last two years of politics. 

Whether the deal gets over the line today doesn't hinge on what assurances May has given her MPs, it hinges on whether they think it's possible to get anything better, given the current parliamentary arithmetic: I'd say Boles' threat this morning (see this thread) is fairly key in explaining what's at stake, and why so many key brexiters are breaking today.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> I haven't missed the speculation, I just don't think any of her assurances mean anything, as evidenced by the last two years of politics.
> 
> Whether the deal gets over the line today doesn't hinge on what assurances May has given her MPs, it hinges on whether they think it's possible to get anything better, given the current parliamentary arithmetic: I'd say Boles' threat this morning (see this thread) is fairly key in explaining what's at stake, and why so many key brexiters are breaking today.



I agree that she can’t be trusted a step, I just can’t see, should her deal get through, that she gets a further two years to negotiate the next bit.

But, hedging here, there is a reason why she is PM, which is that the Tories are split and she was the compromise.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well after reading the Telegraph's summary, there aren't even fudges in there, or at least no further fudges, just a clarification of the really very fudgy nature of the fudges already in there. May's deal is still May's deal, but with an added assurance from the EU that they will try _really hard _to make it work. That appears to be it.



So the deal basically relies on a bunch of people blinking first, later today.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> Why? They were always going to rubbish it. If it goes through the PV is totally off the table. The brexit lot have a much more difficult decision to make.


That's why I find their haste 'interesting'; if they're hoping that the ERG will be their useful idiots I'd have thought being a little more nuanced/timely would have been wise tbh.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> That's why I find their haste 'interesting'; if they're hoping that the ERG will be their useful idiots I'd have thought being a little more nuanced/timely would have been wise tbh.


The point of it is to make it difficult for Cox to fudge his legal advice, so it needed to be out quick.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

8ball said:


> So the deal basically relies on a bunch of people blinking first, later today.



Its been May's strategy all along though hasn't it?  I reckon if allowed she would spend the rest of her life returning to Parliament with the same deal in the hope it would eventually pass.  Its literally all she has.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Its been May's strategy all along though hasn't it?  I reckon if allowed she would spend the rest of her life returning to Parliament with the same deal in the hope it would eventually pass.  Its literally all she has.


I'm beyond being surprised by this process now, but it will be quite mad if the deal passes today. It is _exactly the same thing _they voted on last time.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm beyond being surprised by this process now, but it will be quite mad if the deal passes today. It is _exactly the same thing _they voted on last time.


Is a river ever the same twice?
#brexitbuddhism


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

Is this Cox fella any more impartial than Goldsmith was about Blairs WMDs?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Is this Cox fella any more impartial than Goldsmith was about Blairs WMDs?


Of course not.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Of course not.



We're doomed


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

Cox's advice is out: I don't think it looks brilliant for May tbh.

Legal Opinion on Joint Instrument and Unilateral Declaration concerning the Withdrawal Agreement


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> The point of it is to make it difficult for Cox to fudge his legal advice, so it needed to be out quick.


But fudge is all he can do, surely?


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> But fudge is all he can do, surely?


His advice is out now - the final paragraph is this, which IMO will kill any chance of the deal going through today:

_19. However, the legal risk remains unchanged that if through no such demonstrable failure of either party, but simply because of intractable differences, that situation does arise, the United Kingdom would have, at least while the fundamental circumstances remained the same, no internationally lawful means of exiting the Protocol’s arrangements, save by agreement.
_
Would that paragraph be there or so definitive if the PV lot hadn't been out of the traps so fast, and already had significant coverage this morning for their advice? Maybe, maybe not - either way it was a wise move.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> Cox's advice is out: I don't think it looks brilliant for May tbh.
> 
> Legal Opinion on Joint Instrument and Unilateral Declaration concerning the Withdrawal Agreement



Given everything they have said previously I can't see how the DUP could go along with this.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

No, it's dead.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Given everything they have said previously I can't see how the DUP could go along with this.


Yep. And given that despite their protestations (ha) otherwise, they are very much an Ulster party than a British one, I very much doubt that they are going to go along with the fudging.

They are more likely to say "Fudge off" - it's ironic that their "vinjince, be jaysus" style of politics is a thoroughly Irish one.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Is a river ever the same twice?
> #brexitbuddhism



Heraclitus not Buddha


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> His advice is out now - the final paragraph is this, which IMO will kill any chance of the deal going through today:
> 
> _19. However, the legal risk remains unchanged that if through no such demonstrable failure of either party, but simply because of intractable differences, that situation does arise, the United Kingdom would have, at least while the fundamental circumstances remained the same, no internationally lawful means of exiting the Protocol’s arrangements, save by agreement.
> _
> Would that paragraph be there or so definitive if the PV lot hadn't been out of the traps so fast, and already had significant coverage this morning for their advice? Maybe, maybe not - either way it was a wise move.


Maybe, but the wisdom of the move will not, ultimately, be evident until the division is counted this evening (?)


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

yeah - "legal risk remains" - DUP and ERG will oppose. a few tory rebels might flake off - but i cant see the hardcore shifting.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

thinking about theresa may's bizzare outfit - im guessing that was part of the stage management - guarantees it will feature on all the front pages. Same logic as her "dancing" I guess.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

Stirling's response to the legal advice on Mays latest "deal".


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> yeah - "legal risk remains" - DUP and ERG will oppose. a few tory rebels might flake off - but i cant see the hardcore shifting.


Could well be another 3 figure 'shellacking', then?


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Maybe, but the wisdom of the move will not, ultimately, be evident until the division is counted this evening (?)


It's dead. It's dead now and will be dead this evening. Today will be a total waste of everyone's time.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

I can't see any motivation for the ERG et al to vote for this. I mean, what's the worst that could happen if they vote against? 

A second ref? Which they'd win, and would likely strengthen the hand of "no deal"?

A GE where they can present as sticking to trying implement the the people's will to (likely) sympathetic constituents?

Brexit delayed? or cancelled? Whoopee! They can carry on forging their political careers with their USP intact.

OTOH. If they vote for May's deal. That's it over. With little to show for it. It'd take some serious bribeage to get 'em on board imho


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 12, 2019)

I guess it'll be evident pretty soon. When do we expect MPs to start declaring they're voting against? Within the next few minutes quite possibly.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Could well be another 3 figure 'shellacking', then?



def possible. I think the legal advice has brutally exposed the last 24 hours as a pathetic charade - another heavy defeat and she may well be  finished.


----------



## splash (Mar 12, 2019)

The pressure on Cox to have issued  legal opinion  in support of May's latest shenanigans must have been great. He reportedly said:  _"Bollox" _to   adjusting his opinion in favour of May


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> It's dead. It's dead now and will be dead this evening. Today will be a total waste of everyone's time.



So onwards to round 3 then, whenever that it.

May is basically the impediment to getting anything resolved.   Until she is removed we will be stuck in this hideous purgatory pantomime.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> I can't see any motivation for the ERG et al to vote for this. I mean, what's the worst that could happen if they vote against?
> 
> A second ref? Which they'd win, and would likely strengthen the hand of "no deal"?
> 
> ...


From their perspective, the Norway option Boles et al are pushing is the biggest risk.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> I can't see any motivation for the ERG et al to vote for this. I mean, what's the worst that could happen if they vote against?
> 
> A second ref? Which they'd win, and would likely strengthen the hand of "no deal"?
> 
> ...



yeah - this is the thing with the brexiteers - keeping the faith in the true flame of brexit is more important to them than the actuality of making that happen. Their political capital depends on it - going along with whatever dismal damp fart of a brexit actually materialises gains them nothing.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Heraclitus not Buddha



"No MP ever votes in the same meaningful vote on Brexit twice, even though it's exactly the same vote on exactly the same Brexit and (s)he's exactly the same MP (apart from the Tingers who no longer represent the parties they were elected as).”

Doesn't quite have the same ring does it.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> yeah - this is the thing with the brexiteers - keeping the faith in the true flame of brexit is more important to them than the actuality of making that happen. Their political capital depends on it - going along with whatever dismal damp fart of a brexit actually materialises gains them nothing.


_Brexit Betrayed_ could be a very powerful campaigning tool for rightwing politicians over the next few years.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> _Brexit Betrayed_ could be a very powerful campaigning tool for rightwing politicians over the next few years.


Indeed; but to be so for the ERG would necessitate some sort of splitting from the governing party. Otherwise, they'll be taken down in the pull of the sinking ship.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

I suppose the ERG lot could vote for the deal on the basis of 'live to fight another day'.  There really is no need for the Backstop to come into play as no one wants it so at least this way they can keep Brexit going and try to influence what comes next.

If it ends up heading in the way of Norway Plus and customs unions they're basically dead in the water.  

Would be a massive climb down though of course.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> Cox's advice is out: *I don't think it looks brilliant for May tbh.*



Now, there's an understatement.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> It's dead. It's dead now and will be dead this evening. Today will be a total waste of everyone's time.



Cue AWB, Let's Go Round Again.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Indeed; but to be so for the ERG would necessitate some sort of splitting from the governing party. Otherwise, they'll be taken down in the pull of the sinking ship.


Not sure about that - _Brexit Betrayed_ is how they plan to take control of the party, not split from it.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> Not sure about that - _Brexit Betrayed_ is how they plan to take control of the party, not split from it.


Interesting; would be bloody.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Mar 12, 2019)

splash said:


> The pressure on Cox to have issued  legal opinion  in support of May's latest shenanigans must have been great. He reportedly said:  _"Bollox" _to   adjusting his opinion in favour of May


That was a response to Jon Snow on Twitter saying that there was political pressure on him.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

So, assuming another 3 figure defeat, where next? Literally, next is the 'ruling out no deal' thing tomorrow > seeking an extension the day after. But if the EU are to stick with the 'no third chance' line... Clearly _something_ will happen, something that isn't no deal and isn't slinking back into the EU, so there will be some procedural wiggle. But fucking hell, these are multidimensional clowns.


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> _Brexit Betrayed_ could be a very powerful campaigning tool for rightwing politicians over the next few years.



Yes 
Stab-in-the-back myth - Wikipedia

Its complete bollocks though.


----------



## elbows (Mar 12, 2019)

splash said:


> The pressure on Cox to have issued  legal opinion  in support of May's latest shenanigans must have been great. He reportedly said:  _"Bollox" _to   adjusting his opinion in favour of May



Swing, swing, swing the bollocks of justice, see how fast the bastards bounce.

With apologies to Reeves & Mortimer.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, assuming another 3 figure defeat, where next? Literally, next is the 'ruling out no deal' thing tomorrow > seeking an extension the day after. But if the EU are to stick with the 'no third chance' line... Clearly _something_ will happen, something that isn't no deal and isn't slinking back into the EU, so there will be some procedural wiggle. But fucking hell, these are multidimensional clowns.


An extension and a new negotiation with new/no 'red lines'. Presumably May is finally toast. tbh the only thing I would totally rule out as a possible eventual outcome is 'no deal'.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> An extension and a new negotiation with new/no 'red lines'. Presumably May is finally toast. tbh the only thing I would totally rule out as a possible eventual outcome is 'no deal'.



Not sure I'd be ruling anything out or in.  Even the vote to rule out no deal won't stop it from happening if the blundering continues.  

May has to go is the only route out of this I can see.  With her gone then extension to A50 may have some purpose but it serves no purpose if May is still there pushing her boulder up hill for all eternity.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

May has signaled/threatened she's up a soft brexit with labour


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

yeah - if her deal gets rejected tonight i think she will finally go. probably resign after parliament votes to extend a50 - cant see the tories wanting to her be in charge of the negotiations/national humiliation anymore. not that a new leader will change the fundamentals.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> May has signaled/threatened she's up a soft brexit with labour


Where/when (genuine q)?

The irony of that would be it would be close to something that maybe 3/4 of the Commons actually believe in. But doing anything that looked like 'working with Labour' (particularly if it was anything akin to 'Corbyn's letter') would lead to a good % of her MPs opposing it - and the real chance of a tory split. Oh, hang on...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

BBC reporting a DUP source saying they can not support the deal.

No surprise there.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> May has to go is the only route out of this I can see.  With her gone then extension to A50 may have some purpose but it serves no purpose if May is still there pushing her boulder up hill for all eternity.



There's a lot of talk of A50 extension, but how far could it be extended? There's something about it can't be extended at all without a substantive change in the UK's policies and even then, has any EU bod suggested that they would be prepared to see it go past the elections in May?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> yeah - if her deal gets rejected tonight i think she will finally go. probably resign after parliament votes to extend a50 - cant see the tories wanting to her be in charge of the negotiations/national humiliation anymore. not that a new leader will change the fundamentals.


Sounds of grey suits being taken from wardrobes.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Where/when (genuine q)?
> 
> The irony of that would be it would be close to something that maybe 3/4 of the Commons actually believe in. But doing anything that looked like 'working with Labour' (particularly if it was anything akin to 'Corbyn's letter') would lead to a good % of her MPs opposing it - and the real chance of a tory split. Oh, hang on...



That's why it won't happen, she'll resign before working with Labour in any way as she knows it could fracture the tories even further.  Party has always been the number one priority is all this.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> BBC reporting a DUP source saying they can not support the deal.
> 
> No surprise there.


Forgive me, Theresa, I just couldn't take anymore.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There's a lot of talk of A50 extension, but how far could it be extended? There's something about it can't be extended at all without a substantive change in the UK's policies and even then, has any EU bod suggested that they would be prepared to see it go past the elections in May?



I guess it would depend on the purpose.  If there was a different UK team and different approach then I see no reason why the EU wouldn't be OK to see A50 extended by anything up to a couple of years.  If its just headbutting a brick wall over and over again then there is no real point going beyond the end of March let alone into the EU elections in May.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Just as an aside, May's biggest failure was her unwillingness to see she couldn't get a deal through in the traditional manner of party votes and the rest. She should have twigged that a few months ago and started to talk to Corbyn, both to get something through and spread the blame around. Of course that would have been unthinkable in our FPP system which assumes governments have a majority and don't need to talk to anyone. It may well have fucked her completely within her own party, but it shows how trapped within the narrow logics of British politics she is.

In case that comes across as me sounding like some kind of libdem, break the mould, why can't we all work together type - I'M NOT.  Fuck 'em all and their squalid system. But it does illustrate that the 'Westminster Politics' bit of British neo-liberalism is broken - it can't actually deliver and isn't very fast on its feet.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Sounds of grey suits being taken from wardrobes.


----------



## flypanam (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> .
> 
> But it does illustrate that the 'Westminster Politics' bit of British neo-liberalism is broken - it can't actually deliver and isn't very fast on its feet.



One of my work mates, a tory, made that very point this morning. She's livid. She wants a recall mechanism.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> That's why it won't happen, she'll resign before working with Labour in any way as she knows it could fracture the tories even further.  Party has always been the number one priority is all this.



Theresa the number one priority surely?


----------



## MrCurry (Mar 12, 2019)

Well, if nothing else, these are at least entertaining times for fans of politics. We must take the crumbs of comfort where we find them.



Buddy Bradley said:


> That was a response to Jon Snow on Twitter saying that there was political pressure on him.



The most interesting thing to me is why he was reading twitter links at a time like this? Surely giving a legal opinion on the matter at hand is a pressing, absorbing undertaking which should not involve reading Twitter. Or does it reveal that these decisions are a bit more political than they might like to admit, and “taking the temperature” of the debate was in order, prior to putting pen to paper?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

flypanam said:


> One of my work mates, a tory, made that very point this morning. She's livid. She wants a recall mechanism.


Yep - and also to Teaboy 's point above. Sometimes you have to remind yourself these fuckers conduct themselves. There are certainly channels of communications between the parties, but otherwise the whole thing plays out via channels of idiocy, votes, open letters and spin. The one thing they can't actually do is sit down and talk to each other in a meaningful way. I obviously don't think that mediation and dialogue can solve the fundamental differences of a class society and the things _we_ talk about. But in terms of _their_ logic, _their_ bigger picture, the consensus _they_ are all part of, they deny themselves the basic ways of making progress. AKA politics is shit.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Theresa the number one priority surely?



I don't think so, I think she puts party above self otherwise why in her right mind would she be putting herself through all this?  Country comes down the list of course.



MrCurry said:


> The most interesting thing to me is why he was reading twitter links at a time like this? Surely giving a legal opinion on the matter at hand is a pressing, absorbing undertaking which should not involve reading Twitter. Or does it reveal that these decisions are a bit more political than they might like to admit, and “taking the temperature” of the debate was in order, prior to putting pen to paper?



I imagine his advice was written days ago when it was all agreed.  Last night was just stage managed nonsense to distract and fool.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Heraclitus not Buddha


Ah! Sounded pretty zen to me


Kaka Tim said:


> Stirling's response to the legal advice on Mays latest "deal".


The city giving their 2ps worth. Literally.


killer b said:


> It's dead. It's dead now and will be dead this evening. Today will be a total waste of everyone's time.


20 more pages before midnight.




Wilf said:


> Where/when (genuine q)?
> 
> n...


I'll try and find it but not sure where I read it now. It was probably mainly a threat to get waverers to vote more  than a promise


----------



## elbows (Mar 12, 2019)

Armageddon! edit - oh that was a gerbil.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

elbows said:


> Armageddon! edit - oh that was a gerbil.


It doesn't matter, 'cause this is what everyone is thinking anyway. Either that or something about Richard Gere.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

Is Kyle Wilson amendment happening? Vote Mays deal for second ref?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

On May resigning, getting the push: I'm not sure how/when that might happen (as in, literally, I haven't got a clue rather than suggesting it won't). But it's worth remembering what a crushing blow that would be for her. She's the PM who (didn't) deliver Brexit, she's the PM who hung on after the biggest defeat ever just so that she could have another go at doing Brexit. Her career, her reputation and sense of personal worth are fucked by this. Good.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> I don't think so, I think she puts party above self otherwise why in her right mind would she be putting herself through all this?  Country comes down the list of course.
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine his advice was written days ago when it was all agreed.  Last night was just stage managed nonsense to distract and fool.



Because she loves being Prime Minister. I think she’s one of vainest, most vapid politicians of all time with scarcely a belief to call her own. She appears unencumbered by political philosophy or any strong belief other than in her own success. 

So I don’t think she’s ‘putting herself through’ anything. All that jetting off to Strasbourg in funky coats, that’s her best of all worlds.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

Tory MPs keep gushing about May’s resolve and strength, I only see belligerent arrogance.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Is Kyle Wilson amendment happening? Vote Mays deal for second ref?


Good Q. In all the 'excitement', I'd forgotten that they were supposed to be allowing amendments to the vote today (I think???).


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Tory MPs keep gushing about May’s resolve and strength, I only see belligerent arrogance.


She's not a good person, that's for sure.


----------



## elbows (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Good Q. In all the 'excitement', I'd forgotten that they were supposed to be allowing amendments to the vote today (I think???).



The only news I saw on that front is that Labour didnt table any amendments by the 10.30am cutoff time.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Because she loves being Prime Minister. I think she’s one of vainest, most vapid politicians of all time with scarcely a belief to call her own. She appears unencumbered by political philosophy or any strong belief other than in her own success.
> 
> So I don’t think she’s ‘putting herself through’ anything. All that jetting off to Strasbourg in funky coats, that’s her best of all worlds.


I'm not sure that she's the most vapid politician or that, pedantically, that's the word for it. She's a 'post ideological' politician, in the sense of someone who fits easily into contemporary neo-liberalism but hasn't got any clear desire to change it or put her own imprint on it (so yes, perhaps vapid then). But I agree with the rest. And for her performance as Home Sec she's a cunt.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

She's not without core values -  she definitely believes in racism and xenophobia.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

elbows said:


> The only news I saw on that front is that Labour didnt table any amendments by the 10.30am cutoff time.


There are apparently 10 amendments on the order paper, though the speaker hasn't said which he will accept. He also said yesterday that he might accept 'manuscript amendments', which are of the fag packet variety. The 10 are buried in this:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmagenda/OP190312.pdf


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Given that the various erg clowns seem to be saying 'sorry, it's a no from me', presumably the big push from May and the Whips will be to get them to abstain. That gives her the thinnest sliver of justification to carry on for another push, stay in office for another day, keep the whiskey and revolver in the cupboard....


----------



## Winot (Mar 12, 2019)

Interview just now on R4 with Charles Walker (Chair of 1922 Procedure Committee - Graham Brady's no. 2). Arguing very forcefully that if/when May's deal goes down, there will be a General Election. He basically said that this is a failing Parliament and that the Government has run out of road and was unable to govern. Pretty strong words, even if the objective was to persuade backbenchers to vote for the deal.


----------



## grit (Mar 12, 2019)

Winot said:


> Interview just now on R4 with Charles Walker (Chair of 1922 Procedure Committee - Graham Brady's no. 2). Arguing very forcefully that if/when May's deal goes down, there will be a General Election. He basically said that this is a failing Parliament and that the Government has run out of road and was unable to govern. Pretty strong words, even if the objective was to persuade backbenchers to vote for the deal.



Huh, I had completely written off my bet at the bookies for May to step down in March, might be a few bob in this yet!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 12, 2019)

Bookies offering anything from 1/5 to 1/9 on extension of A50. If there is an extension I think May will have to go because she won't cancel Brexit and she won't go for No Deal. 

Charles Walker is not wrong - stopped clocks and all that.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

Winot said:


> Interview just now on R4 with Charles Walker (Chair of 1922 Procedure Committee - Graham Brady's no. 2). Arguing very forcefully that if/when May's deal goes down, there will be a General Election. He basically said that this is a failing Parliament and that the Government has run out of road and was unable to govern. Pretty strong words, even if the objective was to persuade backbenchers to vote for the deal.



Yes I saw that.  He's had enough, clearly.  Phrases like "backbenchers at each other throats".  You'd think something has got to give, but this being May she will already be eyeing up meaningful vote number 3.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 12, 2019)

grit said:


> Huh, I had completely written off my bet at the bookies for May to step down in March, might be a few bob in this yet!



Oh mate what did you get? I *wish* I'd put that on!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 12, 2019)

Just got 2/1 on May to be out by end of June which seemed pretty generous.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> There are apparently 10 amendments on the order paper, though the speaker hasn't said which he will accept. He also said yesterday that he might accept 'manuscript amendments', which are of the fag packet variety. The 10 are buried in this:
> https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmagenda/OP190312.pdf


All fag packets chucked in bin (none selected).


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 12, 2019)

May literally croaking in the Commons right now.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

DUP statement

 

EU has been intransigent, says the DUP. Still a few LOLs to be squeezed out of the absurdity.


----------



## andysays (Mar 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Bookies offering anything from 1/5 to 1/9 on extension of A50. If there is an extension I think May will have to go because she won't cancel Brexit and she won't go for No Deal.
> 
> Charles Walker is not wrong - stopped clocks and all that.


I suspect you have this back to front - May going (however that happens) would be a pre-condition of an extension, not a consequence


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> May literally croaking in the Commons right now.



Cool, you’ll be able to translate for us.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

So on the maths, it will take a sizeable labour revolt to see May home. Any chance of that at all beyond the handful who voted for it last time?


----------



## Barking_Mad (Mar 12, 2019)

There will have to be a GE in my view unless May really wants to go down the softer Brexit route and try and garner support from Labour etc.

It's quite amusing that the ERG want a hard Brexit but are in position to be the midwives for it not actually happening.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So on the maths, it will take a sizeable labour revolt to see May home. Any chance of that at all beyond the handful who voted for it last time?


no chance whatsoever.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

There has been a steady stream of tories who previously voted against the deal come out and say that this time around they will vote for it. 

Interestingly both the DUP and the ERG have not specifically stated they will vote against it just that they can't back it.  Something as important as this would be an odd thing to abstain on but if they do this vote could be a bit closer than originally thought.  It'll be voted down but it might only be double figures.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Interestingly both the DUP and the ERG have not specifically stated they will vote against it just that they can't back it.


The DUP have said they're voting against just now


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> The DUP have said they're voting against just now



Oh, back up to triple figures then probably.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> The DUP have said they're voting against just now



As has the ERG.



> A key group of Brexiteer Tory MPs say they will be voting against Theresa May's Brexit deal in the Commons later.
> 
> The European Research Group say they are not convinced by legal assurances secured by the PM in 11th hour talks with EU officials.



Brexiteer Tories reject PM's revised deal


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 12, 2019)

andysays said:


> I suspect you have this back to front - May going (however that happens) would be a pre-condition of an extension, not a consequence



Ahh well you could be right - but that might mean the EU demanding May go in order to grant an extension which might not look good for them. Instead I would think they would say a pre-condition is an election or a second referendum, which would _then _mean May would go as the Tories wouldn't trust her with another election.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

The EU will not demand May goes. You're fucking mad.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> DUP statement
> 
> View attachment 164252
> 
> EU has been intransigent, says the DUP. Still a few LOLs to be squeezed out of the absurdity.



Snakes always bite!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Ahh well you could be right - but that might mean the EU demanding May go in order to grant an extension which might not look good for them. Instead I would think they would say a pre-condition is an election or a second referendum, which would _then _mean May would go as the Tories wouldn't trust her with another election.


Don't think they could directly ask for either an election or a second ref - that would be straying into territory where they're interfering with democracy (yes, I know, but formally it's hard for them be seen to be doing that). More likely imo would be a demand that May's 'red lines' should be dropped, thus perhaps smoothing a path to something like Norway+. How the UK gets to come back to the table without its red lines would then be for the UK to decide.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> There has been a steady stream of tories who previously voted against the deal come out and say that this time around they will vote for it.
> 
> Interestingly both the DUP and the ERG have not specifically stated they will vote against it just that they can't back it.  Something as important as this would be an odd thing to abstain on but if they do this vote could be a bit closer than originally thought.  It'll be voted down but it might only be double figures.


Yep, in as much as its worth making any predictions on this shitshow within shitshows, that's about the best for today's events. And that almost certainly gives May another week in office.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

I know we keep going round in circles but this really does feel like end game for May.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> The DUP have said they're voting against just now


'Ulster says NO! (unless you can find another £billion before 7p.m.)'


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Snakes always bite!



Yeah, May spent so long trying to woo the DUP and the ERG its fitting that they are the ones to sink her.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> 'Ulster says NO! (unless you can find another £billion before 7p.m.)'


The DUP cannot be bought.  

Merely rented.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 12, 2019)

Have DUP specified voting against (as opposed to abstain?).  Not yet seen that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

Possibly a stupid question, but presumably the Tinge are voting against. If so, even if the DUP and ERG merely abstain, it's still hard to see the govt winning this.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

At this moment in time Mrs May needs a Fisherman’s Friend.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Possibly a stupid question, but presumably the Tinge are voting against. If so, even if the DUP and ERG merely abstain, it's still hard to see the govt winning this.



The scale of defeat seems important.  At the moment it looks about as grim as could be for her.

Pretty funny stuff.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> The scale of defeat seems important.


I'm not sure it does this time. She doesn't get a third go. One of the downsides of the strategy of running down the clock.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 12, 2019)

Government won't win, but there is a reduced-majority scenario (including abstentions) that will look good for them.  They could stumble on to a third vote - and plenty of ERG types look ready to crumble at that stage.  One saying today that they are looking for a 'ladder to climb-down with'.
Big loss still more likely though I reckon.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm not sure it does this time. She doesn't get a third go.



Why not?  There doesn't seem to be any set rules in play and she's shown incredible belligerence.  If she lost by 20 or 30 votes I reckon she'd fancy another crack.


----------



## andysays (Mar 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Don't think they could directly ask for either an election or a second ref - that would be straying into territory where they're interfering with democracy (yes, I know, but formally it's hard for them be seen to be doing that). More likely imo would be a demand that May's 'red lines' should be dropped, thus perhaps smoothing a path to something like Norway+. How the UK gets to come back to the table without its red lines would then be for the UK to decide.


Something along these lines makes most sense to me. May's red lines going effectively means May herself going, by whatever means...


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

Barking_Mad said:


> There will have to be a GE in my view unless May really wants to go down the softer Brexit route and try and garner support from Labour etc.
> g.


The other problem there is Labour don't want it either..... Anything that looks like facilitating a Tory lead brexit is going to cause huge fights within the party

What we really need now is an election resulting in a hung parliament.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Why not?  There doesn't seem to be any set rules in play and she's shown incredible belligerence.  If she lost by 20 or 30 votes I reckon she'd fancy another crack.


If she loses by twenty votes. she'll be the one getting the champagne in.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Why not?  There doesn't seem to be any set rules in play and she's shown incredible belligerence.  If she lost by 20 or 30 votes I reckon she'd fancy another crack.


Well, no deal and extension would then pass this week before that, unless May calls them back in tomorrow for another vote. Or maybe just locks them in.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

The front pages of the tory press this morning are already offered a hilarious counterpoint by reality.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> If she loses by twenty votes. she'll be the one getting the champagne in.



For sure.  Lots of reports about vast swathes of empty spaces on the tory benches during her speech.  Rats and sinking ships.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

Any word from from the Tinge, the Lib Dems and their fellow centrist travellers?

Would they vote for May to try display their *ahem* muscle and show how "reasonable" and "aware of the national interest" they are?

I wouldn't put it past them


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Any word from from the Tinge, the Lib Dems and their fellow centrist travellers?
> 
> Would they vote for May to try display their *ahem* muscle and show how "reasonable" and "aware of the national interest" they are?
> 
> I wouldn't put it past them


Logically they all ought to be voting the same way they voted last time - their objection wasn't really to do with the backstop. But using logic here doesn't get you very far.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Any word from from the Tinge, the Lib Dems and their fellow centrist travellers?
> 
> Would they vote for May to try display their *ahem* muscle and show how "reasonable" and "aware of the national interest" they are?
> 
> I wouldn't put it past them


TIG are proffering an amendment on a second referendum. They won't be voting for the deal.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Any word from from the Tinge, the Lib Dems and their fellow centrist travellers?
> 
> Would they vote for May to try display their *ahem* muscle and show how "reasonable" and "aware of the national interest" they are?
> 
> I wouldn't put it past them



They're all voting against it with the odd exception of a few MP's.  Most of that lot want to stop Brexit completely so will always be voting against a deal.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

The sooner the election, the funnier the end of Tinge will be. Before they have time to make a party would be funniest


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> They're all voting against it with the odd exception of a few MP's.  Most of that lot want to stop Brexit completely so will always be voting against a deal.


who among them is the odd exception? they're all People's Vote campaigners - it's their only significant policy. There is zero chance of any of them voting for the deal today.


----------



## 1%er (Mar 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well, no deal and extension would then pass this week before that, unless May calls them back in tomorrow for another vote. Or maybe just locks them in.


I don't know what the British press are saying but here they spoke with a number of EU politicos on the news and they were saying it doesn't matter what the UK parliament votes for if they don't vote for this deal. They also said that if the UK votes for an "extension" it is unlikely that the EU would agree unless it is for a general election or a 2nd public vote. All of them said the negotiations are over, so they will not vote for an extension just so the UK can keep trying different wording in a deal the EU has already agreed to.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

1%er said:


> I don't know what the British press are saying but here they spoke with a number of EU politicos on the news and they were saying it doesn't matter what the UK parliament votes for if they don't vote for this deal. They also said that if the UK votes for an "extension" it is unlikely that the EU would agree unless it is for a general election or a 2nd vote. All of them said the negotiations are over, so they will not vote for an extension just so the UK can keep trying different wording in a deal the EU has already agreed to.


In the real world, the EU agrees to an extension if the UK comes back and says it will change its red lines. And the UK will come back and say it will change its red lines if May's deal is voted down. Once May resigns, all kinds of things open up - at least half the cabinet wants Noway+, for instance.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> who among them is the odd exception? they're all People's Vote campaigners - it's their only significant policy. There is zero chance of any of them voting for the deal today.



Remember this?






Don't put anything past these kinda bastards simply cos it's "policy". Their sense of self-importance will override that everytime.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

By the way, when May legged it to Strasbourg last night of that bit in the Matrix 3 when Neo went, blind, to the Machine City?  'She fights for us' was my comforting thought.

No? Just me then.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> who among them is the odd exception? they're all People's Vote campaigners - it's their only significant policy. There is zero chance of any of them voting for the deal today.



Well that there is that oddball lib dem from the South West (can't be bothered to look him up) who voted with the government last time and some worried labour MP's might be tempted to back it with the potential for an election imminent.  None of the tinge lot but the original question was more general then just them.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Just me then.


Christ I fucking hope so


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Guardian breathlessly reporting 14 switchers so far (lab and con), net effect of 28.
Brexit: May opens debate as DUP and ERG say they cannot back deal – Politics live
Some of the ultra weak will be looking out for what the bigger boys and girls are doing, but it's not quite good news for May.


----------



## 1%er (Mar 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In the real world, the EU agrees to an extension if the UK comes back and says it will change its red lines. And the UK will come back and say it will change its red lines if May's deal is voted down. Once May resigns, all kinds of things open up - at least half the cabinet wants Noway+, for instance.


Lot of "if" there, May resigns and who will pick up the poison chalice.
If the UK parliament votes for an extension that is just a vote to change the current law.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

Also ...if there's no prospect of May winning g tonight, will the waverers who are currently saying they'll change to vote for May actually gonna bother if it looks pointless?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Also ...if there's no prospect of May winning g tonight, will the waverers who are currently saying they'll change to vote for May actually gonna bother if it looks pointless?


If they've declared publicly, they'll look silly not doing it. They'll also look silly doing it of course - what changed their minds exactly, it's _exactly the same as last time_ -  but hey.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

They will almost certainly vote for an extension cos the alternative will be crashing out


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> By the way, when May legged it to Strasbourg last night of that bit in the Matrix 3 when Neo went, blind, to the Machine City?  'She fights for us' was my comforting thought.
> 
> No? Just me then.


I’ve not seen any of the Matrix films, so the allusion is lost on me, but I have never in any sense had the feeling, even fleetingly, that May is fighting “for us”.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> They will almost certainly vote for an extension cos the alternative will be crashing out


An extension on what terms though? GE? 2ndRef?
They'd need a majority *for* one of these things in order for the EU to say yes.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> They will almost certainly vote for an extension cos the alternative will be crashing out


Voting for one and getting one are two different things. And even if they get one, it will only be a matter of weeks. (I can’t see any extension lasting beyond the beginning of the Euro election campaign).

Anyone who has ever negotiated anything will know that extending deadlines just means putting off decisions. Negotiations are concluded at deadlines. Both sides know that.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

What does the EU want us* to do?

*Obviously not actually us, but govt, parliament etc.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve not seen any of the Matrix films, so the allusion is lost on me, but I have never in any sense had the feeling, even fleetingly, that May is fighting “for us”.



I totally concur, I have never had the slightest inkling about this.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> What does the EU want us* to do?
> 
> *Obviously not actually us, but govt, parliament etc.


Make a decision, would be my guess.


----------



## bemused (Mar 12, 2019)

I'm hoping for a general election.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve not seen any of the Matrix films, so the allusion is lost on me, but I have never in any sense had the feeling, even fleetingly, that May is fighting “for us”.


Me neither (it's a line from the filum). 

Anyway, if our properly elected prime minister is kicked out, I wonder if there's a risk of terrorism in her name? _The Spirit of the Wheatfield_ could strike anywhere.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> _The Spirit of the Wheatfield_ could strike anywhere.


That sounds a bit Summer Isle. And I’m all for it.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> _
> The Spirit of the Wheatfield_ could strike anywhere.



Children of the Corn may be more appropriate?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Voting for one and getting one are two different things. And even if they get one, it will only be a matter of weeks. (I can’t see any extension lasting beyond the beginning of the Euro election campaign).
> 
> Anyone who has ever negotiated anything will know that extending deadlines just means putting off decisions. Negotiations are concluded at deadlines. Both sides know that.



yes - should have been clearer. Parliament will vote to ask the EU for an extension - what happens after that .... well back to the start of this thread!  The EU may insist that there has be some sort of meaningful change - i.e a General Election or a 2nd ref - they might allow an extension is the UK can show there is a majority in parliament favour or a customs union/soft brexit type thing.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> yes - should have been clearer. Parliament will vote to ask the EU for an extension - what happens after that .... well back to the start of this thread!  The EU may insist that there has be some sort of meaningful change - i.e a General Election or a 2nd ref - they might allow an extension is the UK can show there is a majority in parliament favour or a customs union/soft brexit type thing.


If I was a betting man, and I am, I’d be putting money on other events entirely. Sporting fixtures. Or the Queen retiring.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Remember this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this doesn't really compare though. What would TIG gain from selling out their defining policy for a vote the government will lose either way? It doesn't make sense. Sure there's circumstances where some of them might back May's deal - today is definitely not one of them.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Mar 12, 2019)




----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> this doesn't really compare though. What would TIG gain from selling out their defining policy for a vote the government will lose either way? It doesn't make sense. Sure there's circumstances where some of them might back May's deal - today is definitely not one of them.


Are you perhaps overestimating the competence of the Tinge-ernational brigade?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


>




Is Ed even still a thing?


----------



## FiFi (Mar 12, 2019)

Can I just put on record the fact that I voted for "chaos with Ed Milliband" in the first place.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Is Ed even still a thing?


He was when avoiding my gaze two weeks ago.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

FiFi said:


> Can I just put on record the fact that I voted for "chaos with Ed Milliband" in the first place.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> He was when avoiding my gaze two weeks ago.


That’s nice. I like to think of him roaming the country, avoiding eye contact wherever he goes.


----------



## Santino (Mar 12, 2019)

When I watched the third Matrix film I thought that it was a load of nonsense with a script that made no sense and I did feel cheated out of a proper ending.


----------



## JimW (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Is Ed even still a thing?


I believe, Daniel, that the comedy comes in part from the implication that scaremongering is so hackneyed as to be oblivious to any change in Labour leadership.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

JimW said:


> I believe, Daniel, that the comedy comes in part from the implication that scaremongering is so hackneyed as to be oblivious to any change in Labour leadership.


Ah. That’s a bit subtle for me.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

Santino said:


> When I watched the third Matrix film I thought that it was a load of nonsense with a script that made no sense and I did feel cheated out of a proper ending.


I’m beginning to see its felicity as an allegory then.


----------



## JimW (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Ah. That’s a bit subtle for me.


It might also be bollocks given it's me doing the thinking/interpreting


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Are you perhaps overestimating the competence of the Tinge-ernational brigade?


No. Their founding principle, their purpose in existing, the reason they all left political parties they've given their lives to is to bring about a second referendum is all. So they wont be voting for May's deal tonight.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> No. Their founding principle, their purpose in existing, the reason they all left political parties they've given their lives to is to bring about a second referendum is all. So they wont be voting for May's deal tonight.



If they have any principles at all.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 12, 2019)

With the DUP out that give the license to Tory opposition. Might get the margin below 200 this time but it doesn't look like it's going to be below 150.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> If they have any principles at all.


Its nothing to do with principles, they dont have any. It's because there is no upside whatsoever to voting for it.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> With the DUP out that give the license to Tory opposition. Might get the margin below 200 this time but it doesn't look like it's going to be below 150.



Well there has been a few tories who have changed their mind to back May and Rees-Mogg reckons the ERG are still undecided.  Leadsom and Grayling talking about third votes...


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> Its nothing to do with principles, they dont have any. It's because there is no upside whatsoever to voting for it.



I thought it was ‘their founding principle’? Your post.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I thought it was ‘their founding principle’? Your post.


Soz that should have been in inverted commas.


----------



## gosub (Mar 12, 2019)

Now that a red, white and blue brexit is dead in the water, time ofr a plan B, blue, white and red brexit anyone?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> If they have any principles at all.


Their principle is to have no principles


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Their principle is to have no principles



Quite, me and killer b concur!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Quite, me and killer b concur!


The end times are near indeed


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Santino said:


> When I watched the third Matrix film I thought that it was a load of nonsense with a script that made no sense and I did feel cheated out of a proper ending.


To be honest, I'm not sure the Labour Party wants to get into whether Zion Has Fallen at the moment.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> The end times are near indeed



Tis indeed a world turned upside down.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Tis indeed a world turned upside down.


So, we're somewhere between 12th Night and the Ides of March. I think that adds up to May shouting 'infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy' on Friday.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

gosub said:


> Now that a red, white and blue brexit is dead in the water, time ofr a plan B, blue, white and red brexit anyone?


You’ll be doing alright, with your Brexit of white,
But I’ll have a blue, blue, blue, blue Brexit.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

what time is the vote happening?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, we're somewhere between 12th Night and the Ides of March. I think that adds up to May shouting 'infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy' on Friday.



Hearing the condition of her throat this afternoon she will writing it on post it notes!


----------



## Gerry1time (Mar 12, 2019)

gosub said:


> Now that a red, white and blue brexit is dead in the water, time ofr a plan B, blue, white and red brexit anyone?



It's funny looking back isn't it. The whole 'brexit means brexit' and 'red, white and blue brexit' things seemed like mere soundbites at the time, but in reality they probably were the entire level of the government's sophistication around their thinking at the time.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> what time is the vote happening?



19:00 allegedly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, we're somewhere between 12th Night and the Ides of March. I think that adds up to May shouting 'infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy' on Friday.


Infa may infa may, they've all got it infa may


----------



## gosub (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> what time is the vote happening?


about 7pm....


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> what time is the vote happening?


1900.....hours, that is.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> what time is the vote happening?



7pm apparently.  Results by 7.15pm and hopefully images of a tearful May leaving Downing Street for that the last time at 8pm.  God knows what happens after though.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Does seem to be a steady trickle of MPs saying they will switch votes (someone called tim Loughton is the last one I heard). She's got a long way to go to overturn a 230 fail, but there may well be a herd mentality that gets it into single figures.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> It's funny looking back isn't it. The whole 'brexit means brexit' and 'red, white and blue brexit' things seemed like mere soundbites at the time, but in reality they probably were the entire level of the government's sophistication around their thinking at the time.



Don't forget "cake and eat it Brexit".


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Hearing the condition of her throat this afternoon she will writing it on post it notes!


Maybe the letters I R E S I G N will fall off a stage backdrop.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> It's funny looking back isn't it. The whole 'brexit means brexit' and 'red, white and blue brexit' things seemed like mere soundbites at the time, but in reality they probably were the entire level of the government's sophistication around their thinking at the time.



That was pretty clear from the get-go tbh.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

No matter whatever happens the DUP have got what they wanted.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> 7pm apparently.  Results by 7.15pm and hopefully images of a tearful May leaving Downing Street for that the last time at 8pm.  God knows what happens after though.



Artist's impression.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Artist's impression.
> 
> View attachment 164267



No need for that!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Maybe the letters I R E S I G N will fall off a stage backdrop.


That's all that'll be left on the wall


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> No matter whatever happens the DUP have got what they wanted.


Hulkster is British


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Artist's impression.
> 
> View attachment 164267


 2019 version will see May and her money laundering husband wander into the middle distance with stout shoes and rucksacks.


----------



## gosub (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> 7pm apparently.  Results by 7.15pm and hopefully images of a tearful May leaving Downing Street for that the last time at 8pm.  God knows what happens after though.



Na they will have to change the locks while shes out .  Even then she'd strongly and stabley bang on the door demanding to be let in in for about 3 hours until she got the hint


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> No need for that!


Apols...forgot the trigger spoiler, again!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> 2019 version will see May and her money laundering husband wander into the middle distance with stout shoes and rucksacks.


The middle distance being the quarries on south georgia


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> By the way, when May legged it to Strasbourg last night of that bit in the Matrix 3 when Neo went, blind, to the Machine City?  'She fights for us' was my comforting thought.
> 
> 
> No? Just me then.



Only thing I remember about that one is when Neo finds Trinity at the end and you think maybe she's OK and then the camera pans down and she's impaled on a load of spikes and it's supposed to be a sad moment but the whole cinema just started laughing.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> The middle distance being the quarries on south georgia


Suspect that the vermin have in mind a more brutal outcome


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

In happier times.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Only thing I remember about that one is when Neo finds Trinity at the end and you think maybe she's OK and them the camera pans down and she's impaled on a load of spikes and it's supposed to be a sad moment but the whole cinema just started laughing.


Oh, spoiler code!


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> 2019 version will see May and her money laundering husband wander into the middle distance with stout shoes and rucksacks.



And a sackful of Jakemans.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Suspect that the vermin have in mind a more brutal outcome


You haven't seen the quarries on south georgia


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> In happier times.


If we're going for a pictorial retrospective of the happier moments of her Premiership...there's not many...but...


----------



## Gerry1time (Mar 12, 2019)

gosub said:


> Na they will have to change the locks while shes out .  Even then she'd strongly and stabley bang on the door demanding to be let in in for about 3 hours until she got the hint



and then come back tomorrow to try the same thing again, then again a few months later.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> You haven't seen the quarries on south georgia


All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.



Like a limestone cowboy!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Does seem to be a steady trickle of MPs saying they will switch votes (someone called tim Loughton is the last one I heard). She's got a long way to go to overturn a 230 fail, but there may well be a herd mentality that gets it into single figures.



'Someone called Tim Loughton' - LOL - to this day I regret my mind over coming my desire to mow that bugger down, when he stepped out in front of me, when he was crossing road outside Worthing Hospital.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

You guys actually watched matrix 3?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.


There's going to be a maycam so people at home can keep an eye on the former person may's progress


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

According to the BBC we are up to 19 tory switchers so far, plus 2 or 3 Labour. So that's a net shift of 44 (and plenty of shits). Assuming there are another 20 or so who just haven't piped up yet, that get's her to a defeat of 140-150 or so.  Surely the limpet will have to go?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> If we're going for a pictorial retrospective of the happier moments of her Premiership...there's not many...but...
> 
> View attachment 164269



Doesn't she look young!


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> You guys actually watched matrix 3?



A savage amusement I think!


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> In happier times.



Retaining the film theme,
Goodbye Mrs Chips?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 12, 2019)

The more chaos the better. A pox on all of them. We're fucked whatever the outcome and it's nice to see it continually exposed. Too cynical?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

eatmorecheese said:


> The more chaos the better. A pox on all of them. We're fucked whatever the outcome and it's nice to see it continually exposed. Too cynical?


Nah, you've got the setting about right.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> this doesn't really compare though. What would TIG gain from selling out their defining policy for a vote the government will lose either way? It doesn't make sense. Sure there's circumstances where some of them might back May's deal - today is definitely not one of them.



Sure, it wouldn't make sense. Perhaps we're beyinf that.

I too don't think they will vote for May tonight. I wouldn't be confident in ruling it out though.

What's in for them?

Ego. A sense of power. Spiting the Labour Party. Posturing as the "grown-ups" making sacrifices in the national interest. Building up credit with Tory moderates for a future coalition deal.

There's plenty of nonsense these bubble bastards could have running through their conceited little minds that could very easily override any "founding principles" in the blink of an eye, or bat of an eye-lash.

Like I said, I don't think it'll happen tonight. But don't trust those Tinger bastards an inch to have the decency to act according to any sense of ideals.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

eatmorecheese said:


> The more chaos the better. A pox on all of them. We're fucked whatever the outcome and it's nice to see it continually exposed. Too cynical?



I don't think that's too cynical.  I've always felt the British political system is crap and this has just exposed it for what it really is.  I'd hope that this would bring about some genuine change but sadly no sign of that at all yet.


----------



## MrCurry (Mar 12, 2019)

So... predictions for the contents of May’s speech to the house after her bill is voted down tonight?

“This house has demonstrated that it is not willing to implement the democratically expressed will of the people”

“It is only right and proper that the people have their say on whether those members remain elected members of this house”

“The government will therefore bring a bill to this house calling for parliament to be dissolved and for a general election to be held”

“And following the passing of this bill, I will stand down as leader of the Conservative party to make way for a successor who can fight the election with a renewed mandate to implement the referendum result”

Something like that??


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Apparently Andrew 'you fucking pleb' Mitchell is voting for it. Some journalist or other is speculating this might bring another 10 over to supporting the deal. Fucking hell, _what sort of cunt would you have to be to be swayed by Andrew Mitchell??_


----------



## teqniq (Mar 12, 2019)




----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> So... predictions for the contents of May’s speech to the house after her bill is voted down tonight?
> 
> “This house has demonstrated that it is not willing to implement the democratically expressed will of the people”
> 
> ...


Who knows, but my guess would be carrying on to the no deal vote tomorrow and/or moving to an extension request - but May possibly getting 'persuaded' to fuck off by the end of the week. She won't go gracefully though.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 12, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> So... predictions for the contents of May’s speech to the house after her bill is voted down tonight?
> 
> “This house has demonstrated that it is not willing to implement the democratically expressed will of the people”
> 
> ...



That would be my guess but frankly the way things have gone over the last couple of years it wouldn't surprise me if she just stood up and gave a repeat of the last time her deal was voted down.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 12, 2019)

Will someone just put a (red white and blue) paper bag over her head and lead her out to the wheatfields?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 12, 2019)

eatmorecheese said:


> The more chaos the better. A pox on all of them. We're fucked whatever the outcome and it's nice to see it continually exposed. Too cynical?



Pretty much my reason for voting out.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Apparently Andrew 'you fucking pleb' Mitchell is voting for it. Some journalist or other is speculating this might bring another 10 over to supporting the deal. Fucking hell, _what sort of cunt would you have to be to be swayed by Andrew Mitchell??_




An MP?


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Sure, it wouldn't make sense. Perhaps we're beyinf that.
> 
> I too don't think they will vote for May tonight. I wouldn't be confident in ruling it out though.
> 
> ...


they aren't acting according to any kind of decency or ideals - they never were. They formed entirely to take advantage of one thing: centrist remainers who feel _politically homeless_. So the one thing they won't be doing - tonight at least - is voting for May's deal. It would destroy what little base they have, what political capital they have accrued in the last few weeks. That anyone could imagine it's a possibility is just baffling tbh.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> I've always felt the British political system is crap and this has just exposed it for what it really is.  I'd hope that this would bring about some genuine change but sadly no sign of that at all yet.


...and that, right there, is the strength of the political system


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Right, I'm going with 118 defeat.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> You guys actually watched matrix 3?


Yeah, it was bad.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> they aren't acting according to any kind of decency or ideals - they never were. They formed entirely to take advantage of one thing: centrist remainers who feel _politically homeless_.



Agree with all of that.



killer b said:


> So the one thing they won't be doing - tonight at least - is voting for May's deal. It would destroy what little base they have, what political capital they have accrued in the last few weeks. That anyone could imagine it's a possibility is just baffling tbh.



But this not so much.

I think the whole 2nd Ref schtick is really based on fundamental pro-EU principles. It's just shorthand for a kind of moderate, sensible metropolitan liberalism.   

For the Tingers that's the position they're chasing. Sure, the likeliest way they'll pursue it is voting against May in the hope of getting that 2nd ref. But, my point is that they might see an opportunity to claim that centrist ground by - as I said above - posturing as the pragmatic grown-ups, rising above entrenched positions blah blah blah. I don't think that's that baffling a possibility.

Of course, this all assumes a certain amount of political planning for the future and a sense of where they sit politically and not just petulant wrecking of the Parties where they no longer see a career in.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

...but killer b it's mostly just idle musings on my part whilst I wait with bated breath for yet another dramatic announcement that nothing much has changed.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> The EU will not demand May goes. You're fucking mad.



I was saying they wouldn't. Chill out.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Right, I'm going with 118 defeat.



I’m going with 98.

Based on sweet FA, but might as well make a game of it.


----------



## Supine (Mar 12, 2019)

157


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

i rekon she will lose by 50 -100. 

She wont resign - they will have to force her out. Probably have to take her for a drive to some wheat fields with a grimly silent hit man from the 1922 committee sitting in the back.  Car pulls over. Nicolas Soames gets out to take a piss  ......


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

180

'cause I want to see the likes of Kuenssberg try and do the darts voice and fail miserably.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 12, 2019)

Supine said:


> 157



160.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> 180



Alright Sid Waddell


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 12, 2019)

78


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Alright Sid Waddell



See my edit


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

148, simples


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 12, 2019)

72.5


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 12, 2019)

_In one more hour, I will be gone
In one more hour, I'll leave this room
The dress you wore, the pretty shoes
Are things I left behind for you_


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

It won’t be the numbers that hurt, it will be the abandonment of her by so called allies at the last minute.
Oh the anguish, oh the sleepless nights.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It won’t be the numbers that hurt, it will be the abandonment of her by so called allies at the last minute.
> Oh the anguish, oh the sleepless nights.



I think the numbers will hurt too.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 12, 2019)

Some Tory prick complaining about the collapse of wheat farming in the event of no deal which is not a possible event :/

E2A: In Commons I meant sorry. Not many people actually there.


----------



## agricola (Mar 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Some Tory prick complaining about the collapse of wheat farming in the event of no deal which is not a possible event :/
> 
> E2A: In Commons I meant sorry. Not many people actually there.



She'll have a lot more time to run in the fields if she loses, so they may have a point there.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Some Tory prick complaining about the collapse of wheat farming in the event of no deal which is not a possible event :/
> 
> E2A: In Commons I meant sorry. Not many people actually there.



Knock some stately homes down and make them community farms. 
Sorted.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Right, I'm going with 118 defeat.



I was off by a country mile last time but I'll go with 176.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I was off by a country mile last time but I'll go with 176.


 
Ooh - smelling blood in the water?


----------



## A380 (Mar 12, 2019)

I still think it would be funny if Sinn Fein turned up and voted...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2019)

I'm bored, when's the vote.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> 78



I wanted the bottom marker, dammit!


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

I was thinking there'd be a good few abstentions, but actually, probably not. I'm going to make myself unpopular here and suggest that not even our politicians are so cowardly as to not vote on this.

Oh, hang on,_ I_ didn't vote in 2016.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

Bit of a tricky job for Barclay, selling this one.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Here's some more pointless speculation, this time from Sky:



> Sky News projection
> 
> ** Government will lose by more than 100 votes
> 
> ...


That almost certainly adds up to losing by under 150, a significant shift from last time. But in any sane universe, she's gone. I'd say she _may well be_ gone within the week, but if I did gambling it would be worth putting a tenner on her still being in place in, what, a month, six weeks?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Here's some more pointless speculation, this time from Sky:
> 
> 
> That almost certainly adds up to losing by under 150, a significant shift from last time. But in any sane universe, she's gone. I'd say she _may well be_ gone within the week, but if I did gambling it would be worth putting a tenner on her still being in place in, what, a month, six weeks?



I think you may be tripped up by your “sane universe” hypothesis.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 12, 2019)

I wish Andrew Neil would fuck off an all.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I wish Andrew Neil would fuck off an all.



Other talking wankers are available.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I wish Andrew Neil would fuck off an all.



One of those posts that works regardless of context.


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 12, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I wish Andrew Neil would fuck off an all.



This is the vote that could bring the country together


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 12, 2019)

One for the ‘BBC going down the pan’ thread really


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 12, 2019)

Ch 4 news reporting with a ‘#MayBeTroubleAhead’ hashtag in the bottom corner of the screen


----------



## elbows (Mar 12, 2019)

8ball said:


> Other talking wankers are available.



I've gone with the bland ones on BBC Parliament. I am regretting my choice already.


----------



## agricola (Mar 12, 2019)

Odd delay this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

agricola said:


> Odd delay this.


They're struggling to find tellers sober enough to count


----------



## elbows (Mar 12, 2019)

agricola said:


> Odd delay this.



Deliberate dramatic suspense. Of the most tedious variety.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 12, 2019)

Eyes for, nose against, are ears abstentions?


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 12, 2019)

Reports that the ‘no’ lobby was very busy. Does Teresa have Pickfords on speed dial?


----------



## agricola (Mar 12, 2019)

242-391

less of a shoeing, but still


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank wins!!

(I think)

Might be Supine - I’m v tired.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 12, 2019)

A Dalek speaks.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2019)

8ball said:


> SpookyFrank wins!!
> 
> (I think)



What did I say? 176? Someone must be closer.

E2a: Supine wins with a prediction of 157.


----------



## elbows (Mar 12, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> A Dalek speaks.



Brexterminate! Brexterminate!


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

boom - defeat by 150 votes. ouch. lol. etc


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> What did I say? 176? Someone must be closer.



Yeah, I thought I remembered you saying about 150.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

8ball said:


> SpookyFrank wins!!
> 
> (I think)
> 
> Might be Supine - I’m v tired.


brogdale has 148


----------



## Supine (Mar 12, 2019)

Her batteries need replacing


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 12, 2019)

Ffs she still thinks she can negotiate


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2019)

She won't go. She'll never go.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> She won't go. She'll never go.



Strong and stable!


----------



## Supine (Mar 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> What did I say? 176? Someone must be closer.
> 
> E2a: Supine wins with a prediction of 157.



Really? Fuck. I never normally win anything 

Am I supposed to do a victory speech now?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2019)

With this ability to take battering after battering and not quit, May should become England cricket captain.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

Supine said:


> Really? Fuck. I never normally win anything
> 
> Am I supposed to do a victory speech now?



Yes but in a croaky voice for posterity.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2019)

Supine said:


> Really? Fuck. I never normally win anything
> 
> Am I supposed to do a victory speech now?



No, turns out Brogdale beat you. 

brogdale, speech!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Supine said:


> Really? Fuck. I never normally win anything
> 
> Am I supposed to do a victory speech now?


It's traditional to give a victory speech only when you've won something


----------



## andysays (Mar 12, 2019)

May will be voting *against* No Deal...


----------



## steveo87 (Mar 12, 2019)

When society breaks down, and there is a civil war, I claim the lands to the north.
Well... Clitheroe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> With this ability to take battering after battering and not quit, May should become England cricket captain.


Or start a new career in boxing


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I wish Andrew Neil would fuck off an all.



Yes, but seeing him reminds me I must buy some Brillo pads.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> brogdale has 148



brogdale wins!!!

(Until someone points out a closer number)


----------



## elbows (Mar 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> With this ability to take battering after battering and not quit May should become England cricket captain.



I believe cricket analogies are something of an anathema to female tory party leaders, who have no desire to be savaged by a dead sheep lest they follow in Thatchers footsteps.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 12, 2019)

Fuck Theresa May's boys took one helluva beating


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Yes, but seeing him reminds me I must buy some Brillo pads.


I knew there was something I meant to get


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> It's traditional to give a victory speech only when you've won something



What about May's speech after the last GE?


----------



## Supine (Mar 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> No, turns out Brogdale beat you.
> 
> brogdale, speech!



Recount!


----------



## Poot (Mar 12, 2019)

So. Tomorrow, then.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

Supine said:


> Her batteries need replacing


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

I was rashly going to make a prediction. But I’m going to leave it like the sex of my children: I’ll wait and see.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> What about May's speech after the last GE?


She won the booby prize


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> View attachment 164290


A drumming bunny would do a better job than theresa may


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

andysays said:


> May will be voting *against* No Deal...


Fuck. It might win then.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Poot said:


> So. Tomorrow, then.


Now I'm picturing theresa may singing tomorrow out of Annie


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 12, 2019)

Can’t wait to see the front pages tomorrow


----------



## Poot (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Now I'm picturing theresa may singing tomorrow out of Annie


I doubt the sun'll come out.


----------



## A380 (Mar 12, 2019)

Nothing Has Changed
Nothing Has Changed


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> A drumming bunny would do a better job than theresa may



TBF, the other type of battery powered Rabbit would make a better job of hitting the spot.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 12, 2019)

Rees Mogg is such an arse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

weltweit said:


> Rees Mogg is such an arse.


The cheeks of the man


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

weltweit said:


> Rees Mogg is such an arse.



And, you have only just noticed this?


----------



## FiFi (Mar 12, 2019)

So Eastenders and Holby are postponed for tonight. Will Shetland also be cancelled or shall i just go to bed early?


----------



## Poot (Mar 12, 2019)

weltweit said:


> Rees Mogg is such an arse.


Someone the other day referred to him as 'spooky Victorian pencil Jacob Rees Mogg' and now I think of that every time I see him.


----------



## bemused (Mar 12, 2019)

Why wouldn't Labour put forward a vote of no confidence?


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 12, 2019)

bemused said:


> Why wouldn't Labour put forward a vote of no confidence?



Because they won't win it?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

bemused said:


> Why wouldn't Labour put forward a vote of no confidence?


Because it wouldn’t win.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

bemused said:


> Why wouldn't Labour put forward a vote of no confidence?


Because it wont pass.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

Lol


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 12, 2019)

Stereo


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Stereo


5:1 sound.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

This is also why he wont bring a peoples vote motion FWIW


----------



## elbows (Mar 12, 2019)

Poot said:


> Someone the other day referred to him as 'spooky Victorian pencil Jacob Rees Mogg' and now I think of that every time I see him.



This is what I think of when I think of him:


----------



## bemused (Mar 12, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Because they won't win it?



I know it wouldn't win, but wouldn't it be good politics?

You have a Tory party undermining its own government policy. The government clearly doesn't have a majority for governing and can only muster a majority to stop the people expressing their view on the government.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> No, turns out Brogdale beat you.
> 
> brogdale, speech!


I intend giving Urbz a free vote on whether 148 wins and then, if they reject that, a time extension to explain why not.


----------



## bemused (Mar 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> This is also why he wont bring a peoples vote motion FWIW



I'd love to see a peoples vote motion, the Tory party would eat themselves alive. It would be great TV.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

Time for a re-post of this...


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

bemused said:


> I know it wouldn't win, but wouldn't it be good politics?


No, that’s what makes it bad politics.


----------



## bemused (Mar 12, 2019)

Is Richard Burgon the most pointless Labour spokesperson?


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

bemused said:


> I'd love to see a peoples vote motion, the Tory party would eat themselves alive. It would be great TV.


There would only be single figures voting for it though. If that.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I intend giving Urbz a free vote on whether 148 wins and then, if they reject that, a time extension to explain why not.



No deal.


----------



## gosub (Mar 12, 2019)

What is the superlative of omnishambles?


----------



## A380 (Mar 12, 2019)

So, the Mogster and ERG inbreeds obviously have a plan of how they think they can force a no deal ( and so clear up on shorting the pound they are so proud of).

What is their  plan? I can’t see it?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

A380 said:


> What is there plan? I can’t see it?



I would refer the Member for Aeroplanes to post 2 on this thread, nothing has changed.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2019)

gosub said:


> What is the superlative of omnishambles?



Ubershambles.


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 12, 2019)




----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

A380 said:


> So, the Mogster and ERG inbreeds obviously have a plan of how they think they can force a no deal ( and so clear up on shorting the pound they are so proud of).
> 
> What is their  plan? I can’t see it?


They dont need to do anything do they? It's another option that needs to be forced, not no deal. No deal is on unless theres something else agreed.


----------



## Gerry1time (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I intend giving Urbz a free vote on whether 148 wins and then, if they reject that, a time extension to explain why not.



Can you make a binding commitment to that though, or might there be rumours of you pulling the vote at the last minute if it doesn't go your way?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> Can you make a binding commitment to that though, or might there be rumours of you pulling the vote at the last minute if it doesn't go your way?


I'm very clear about this.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

A380 said:


> So, the Mogster and ERG inbreeds obviously have a plan of how they think they can force a no deal ( and so clear up on shorting the pound they are so proud of).
> 
> What is their  plan? I can’t see it?


No deal is what happens if there isn’t a deal. All they need to do is ensure there isn’t a deal. Given that there isn’t a deal, all they need to do is sit on their hands.

If parliament votes to reject leaving without a deal, that doesn’t actually guarantee anything, unless parliament can get the numbers to stop Brexit if there’s no deal agreed.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> No deal is what happens if there isn’t a deal. All they need to do is ensure there isn’t a deal. Given that there isn’t a deal, all they need to do is sit on their hands.
> 
> If parliament votes to reject leaving without a deal, that doesn’t actually guarantee anything, unless parliament can get the numbers to stop Brexit if there’s no deal agreed.


Yep, the only other options are Parliament voting to seek an extension (at what cost extracted by the 27?) or voting to revoke A50.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Poot said:


> Someone the other day referred to him as 'spooky Victorian pencil Jacob Rees Mogg' and now I think of that every time I see him.


He's the sort of person who'd get garrotted in Victorian London. Or poisoned with arsenic for the lols


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

Who are all these posh youngsters on TV and why should I listen to their witterings?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Who are all these posh youngsters on TV and why should I listen to their witterings?


1.Your betters. 
2.They’re your betters.


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 12, 2019)

I find it hard to imagine this parliament agreeing to any deal particularly if any extension has to be short.An election would be nice but not entirely sure that would alter the picture much.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> No deal is what happens if there isn’t a deal. All they need to do is ensure there isn’t a deal. Given that there isn’t a deal, all they need to do is sit on their hands.
> 
> If parliament votes to reject leaving without a deal, that doesn’t actually guarantee anything, unless parliament can get the numbers to stop Brexit if there’s no deal agreed.



Yep, everything is very clear.

As clear as mud.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> 1.Your betters.
> 2.They’re your betters.



It’s like being lectured to by A level students who’ve never been outside.


----------



## chilango (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It’s like being lectured to by A level students who’ve never been outside.



I bet we can all exactly where they _have_ been though, eh?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It’s like being lectured to by A level students who’ve never been outside.


I’m not at a telly, I’m in the car waiting at the train station to pick up daughter #2.  But I’m sure they’re grating.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> I find it hard to imagine this parliament agreeing to any deal particularly if any extension has to be short.An election would be nice but not entirely sure that would alter the picture much.


This is the thing, isn’t it? What if we got another close run parliament? What would be solved?


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 12, 2019)

No deal perhaps the only thing thinkable right now??


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

I think the current parliamentary makeup is almost perfectly balanced for stalemate. A few more in any direction (enough to jettison the DUP, mainly) and a lot more options would open up. It'd still be difficult, but not impossible like it is now...


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Yes, but seeing him reminds me I must buy some Brillo pads.


And a vest.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 12, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> No deal perhaps the only thing thinkable right now??



Nope. Voted down tomorrow night. 

Increasingly looking like soft Brexit/ no Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> No deal perhaps the only thing thinkable right now??


Think again


----------



## Winot (Mar 12, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Nope. Voted down tomorrow night.
> 
> Increasingly looking like soft Brexit/ no Brexit.



Parliament voting down no deal doesn’t stop no deal.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

Winot said:


> Parliament voting down no deal doesn’t stop no deal.


Correct; only 2 ways to stop it...convince 27 to give more time or revoke A50.


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 12, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Nope. Voted down tomorrow night.
> 
> Increasingly looking like soft Brexit/ no Brexit.


Yeah but that assumes that this parliament can actually agree on something quite specific in what surely has to be a short time-frame-and I think we can rule out no Brexit?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 12, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> Yeah but that assumes that this parliament can actually agree on something quite specific in what surely has to be a short time-frame-and I think we can rule out no Brexit?


Think Parliament will vote for an extension, but whether or not the 27 play ball, or at what cost is the real question. All power with the suprastate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> Yeah but that assumes that this parliament can actually agree on something quite specific in what surely has to be a short time-frame-and I think we can rule out no Brexit?


We can rule out ruling things out


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 12, 2019)

The EU, specifically Germany, do not need convincing to give us more time. They don’t want us to leave. They are quite prepared to watch us cringe back with our tails between our legs. Things are heading towards more no full leave than no deal Brexit.


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> We can rule out ruling things out


You're probably right but at this juncture it would be sooo taking the piss.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> You're probably right but at this juncture it would be sooo taking the piss.


You won't believe the piss taking you're going to witness in the next 17 days


----------



## Winot (Mar 12, 2019)

The really interesting (=horrific) scenario is that Parliament votes down no deal tomorrow and then votes down an extension on Thursday. 

I’m not expecting that however. I also think it’s very unlikely the EU will turn down an extension request, despite their faux-highhanded rhetoric. 

But what happens if the extension is only until 22 May? Robert Peston reckons we are heading for no deal in late May/June. He could be right.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Correct; only 2 ways to stop it...convince 27 to give more time or revoke A50.


Yup. Otherwise, the only way to not have no deal is to have a deal. Which they just voted against.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yup. Otherwise, the only way to not have no deal is to have a deal. Which they just voted against.


It'll be peer over the no deal abyss and revoke a.50


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yup. Otherwise, the only way to not have no deal is to have a deal. Which they just voted against.





i think i understand...


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> We can rule out ruling things out



Overruled.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2019)

emerging consensus from commentators is that May will try to get 3 month extension and use that cliff edge as a way to force her deal through again (ffs ..). 
Parliament may not allow this - as its massively taking the piss.


----------



## agricola (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> emerging consensus from commentators is that May will try to get 3 month extension and use that cliff edge as a way to force her deal through again (ffs ..).
> Parliament may not allow this - as its massively taking the piss.



She absolutely could force this deal through - but that would mean plausibly threatening to back either a second referendum or, more likely, threatening to revoke Article 50 itself.  The ERG and the DUP are the ones who have to be talked around, not anyone else, and the only way she could do that is to threaten to destroy the party.

I'd be amazed if they went for (and got) an extension on those grounds though, as she could do all that this week.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> emerging consensus from commentators


which commentators?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

We seem to be a world away from when farage and Johnson were saying the EU would be desperate to give us great trade deals and the rest. On Thursday we will be pleading 'please will you let us stay a bit longer so that we can have another go at agreeing that deal you offered us months ago'. lol


----------



## gosub (Mar 12, 2019)

I quite liked 
Theresa May’s Brexit lost to the ultimate adversary: reality | Rafael Behr

HOWEVER

It was  kinda dwarfed by A quantum experiment suggests there’s no such thing as objective reality


 We are up to our arse in Nietzsche however the darts team is disinterested so I shall seek solice in another pint and stick Happy days toy town on the juke box


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Tusk already having his fun saying he will need to hear a 'credible reason' (for an extension):
Donald Tusk: UK must have a credible reason to delay Brexit
'Say pretty please'.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

agricola said:


> She absolutely could force this deal through - but that would mean plausibly threatening to back either a second referendum or, more likely, threatening to revoke Article 50 itself.


Would that work, though? Surely revoking A50 is something a lot of MPs want. They just don't want to be the ones to actually do it. 

I think tomorrow's no deal vote may show something. Whipped, it would have been a narrow majority to reject no deal. Unwhipped, it might be a very large majority to reject no deal. That might be an indicator of the number of MPs who really, secretly or otherwise, just want brexit to go away.


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 12, 2019)

and this show of cunts are still ahead in public polling


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> and this show of cunts are still ahead in public polling


I've listened to bits on World Service about this today, and it has been very marked that nearly all those interviewed have been tories. Labour has barely been mentioned. In a way you can see why - it is a tory split that's made this mess happen (I think with a united tory party, the DUP would have been under massive pressure to fall in line). But it leaves Labour rather out in the cold. Whatever they say just isn't reported,


----------



## gosub (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> We seem to be a world away from when farage and Johnson were saying the EU would be desperate to give us great trade deals and the rest. On Thursday we will be pleading 'please will you let us stay a bit longer so that we can have another go at agreeing that deal you offered us months ago'. lol


 we'd probably win a bad faith so bit dopey knowing that to sign up to relying on it


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 12, 2019)

tbh i heard that the ERG are now towing the line with the DUP

A party that does not even speak for its own constitutes in the north, have a corrupt leader and have not had a assembly in many a year

just wtf is going on with the Tory party


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

I've chartered 350 737 max 8's to ferry the former people to grytviken, got a knock down price


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

agricola said:


> She absolutely could force this deal through - but that would mean plausibly threatening to back either a second referendum or, more likely, threatening to revoke Article 50 itself.  The ERG and the DUP are the ones who have to be talked around, not anyone else, and the only way she could do that is to threaten to destroy the party.
> 
> I'd be amazed if they went for (and got) an extension on those grounds though, as she could do all that this week.


Can't see how she'll get an extension


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> tbh i heard that the ERG are now towing the line with the DUP
> 
> A party that does not even speak for its own constitutes in the north, have a corrupt leader and have not had a assembly in many a year
> 
> just wtf is going on with the Tory party


Corrupt and incompetent leader. Remember she signed a blank cheque for the heating scandal. She's a fucking idiot, and that's being charitable. It seems being exposed as corrupt and incompetent isn't the problem it once was.


----------



## gosub (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I've chartered 350 737 max 8's to ferry the former people to grytviken, got a knock down price


Do you work for Chris Greyling? if so I know of a shipping company that can help


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 12, 2019)

That said, I don't think the ERG are towing the line with the DUP. The ERG was never going to vote for this today.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Tusk already having his fun saying he will need to hear a 'credible reason' (for an extension):



is "we are up shit creek and need more time to find a paddle" not a credible reason?


----------



## Sue (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I've chartered 350 737 max 8's to ferry the former people to grytviken, got a knock down price



Not with Seaborne Freight I hope...?


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That said, I don't think the ERG are towing the line with the DUP. The ERG was never going to vote for this today.



true but Mogg has been licking the arse of the DUP as of late 

still planning his push for pm  i believe


----------



## 2hats (Mar 12, 2019)

Robert Peston writes...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

Sue said:


> Not with Seaborne Freight I hope...?


Oh there's no need for anything seaborne


----------



## A380 (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I've chartered 350 737 max 8's to ferry the former people to grytviken, got a knock down price


I keep telling you, you won’t get the kelp harvest in on time with thinking like that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2019)

A380 said:


> I keep telling you, you won’t get the kelp harvest in on time with thinking like that.


----------



## Sue (Mar 12, 2019)

2hats said:


> Robert Peston writes...



Don't understand. How can they vote to cancel no deal?


----------



## gosub (Mar 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh there's no need for anything seaborne


Fucking is til they publish Airwortyness notes and up the training for the rating


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 12, 2019)

it a vote to take the no deal exit off the table and more or less ask for an extension


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> it a vote to take the no deal exit off the table and more or less ask for an extension


Must admit though, I don't really get the formal impact of voting to keep no deal off the table (apart from as a political statement). It's either vote for the deal (which they've just rejected, but could theoretically vote on again before the end of the month), vote to _ask for_ an extension or leave without a deal in the absence of those. The other route is revoking article 50 which is something else altogether (and I can't quite remember - or care - whether we can do that independently).


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Must admit though, I don't really get the formal impact of voting to keep no deal off the table (apart from as a political statement). It's either vote for the deal (which they've just rejected, but could theoretically vote on again before the end of the month), vote to _ask for_ an extension or leave without a deal in the absence of those. The other route is revoking article 50 which is something else altogether (and I can't quite remember - or care - whether we can do that independently).



Shh someone might catch on that the UK cannot dictate to the EU


----------



## Wilf (Mar 12, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> Shh someone might catch on that the UK cannot dictate to the EU



ENGLAND THROUGH THE AGES

1415:
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day

2019:
Erm, can we, erm, stay in a bit longer? Pleeeease.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Must admit though, I don't really get the formal impact of voting to keep no deal off the table (apart from as a political statement). It's either vote for the deal (which they've just rejected, but could theoretically vote on again before the end of the month), vote to _ask for_ an extension or leave without a deal in the absence of those. The other route is revoking article 50 which is something else altogether (and I can't quite remember - or care - whether we can do that independently).



Can't remember who tabled what amendment but by actually having a vote on no deal it forces Parliament to demonstrate they won't accept no deal which leaves Remain or a deal negotiated with the EU which will by definition be bad.


----------



## xenon (Mar 13, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> The EU, specifically Germany, do not need convincing to give us more time. They don’t want us to leave. They are quite prepared to watch us cringe back with our tails between our legs. Things are heading towards more no full leave than no deal Brexit.



 Just catching up. But I think this sort of thinking is delusional. It is basically they need us more than we need them. No, regrettably they will cut an arm off to save the body. 

 Sorry that was a bit Farage reverse. But you see what I mean.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

Maybe we should help Tusk and Juncker out and come up with a few suggestions for what they should demand for an A50 extension:

1. Theresa May has to stand up in the Commons and shout '_Gibraltar is really, really, REALLY Spanish'.

2. _Admit that VAR technology shows we didn't really win the 1966 World Cup.

3. Replace the Queen's Christmas Day Message with the entire Royal Family belting out _The Fields of Athenry, _with Prince Philip doing the _Sinn Fein_ and _IRA_ bits


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Maybe we should help Tusk and Juncker out and come up with a few suggestions for what they should demand for an A50 extension:
> 
> 1. Theresa May has to stand up in the Commons and shout '_Gibraltar is really, really, REALLY Spanish'.
> 
> ...





no more beer for Nigel


----------



## xenon (Mar 13, 2019)

Actually bollocks. Those of you who still think that no deal can’t happen because Parliament will vote against it. You are fucking idiots. It is what will happen unless something else is actually passed. And you trust this Parliament to do the latter. 

 Fuckwits.


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 13, 2019)

some of us trusted parliament to fuck it up about 2 years ago


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

xenon said:


> Actually bollocks. Those of you who still think that no deal can’t happen because Parliament will vote against it. You are fucking idiots. It is what will happen unless something else is actually passed. And you trust this Parliament to do the latter.
> 
> Fuckwits.


The amusing scenario would be if the EU said no to an extension. It would then be A. no deal exit or B. shit selves and revoke a50 or C. shit selves and sign up for May's deal. All ideas that the UK was a player on the world stage dashed for a thousand years.


----------



## xenon (Mar 13, 2019)

There is certainly a lot of macabre fun to be had.

 The lid has been lifted somewhat. People wanking on about democratic Phalia. Hello, hello, have you been awake recently.  Not aimed at urban that one it’s just I have the folly of having LBC on at the same time as I write this drivel.


----------



## collectordave (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> The amusing scenario would be if the EU said no to an extension. It would then be A. no deal exit or B. shit selves and revoke a50 or C. shit selves and sign up for May's deal. All ideas that the UK was a player on the world stage dashed for a thousand years.



The amusing thing would be for the vote tonight to be "no" to leaving without a deal then the EU say "no" to an extension.

There are no off the shelf deals we can sign up to so:-

Mays deal thrown out allready
No deal thrown out
One option left stay in.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 13, 2019)

Just bloody well stay in and admit this whole fucking shitshow was never going to happen ffs


----------



## Ted Striker (Mar 13, 2019)




----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Just bloody well stay in and admit this whole fucking shitshow was never going to happen ffs


this is cute.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

. /


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 13, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Just bloody well stay in and admit this whole fucking shitshow was never going to happen ffs



It's probably worth staying in until we get a competent government capable of delivering a version of Brexit that people can agree on - or until the movement of tectonic plates smashes Europe into other continents and renders the whole thing obsolete, whichever happens first.


----------



## chilango (Mar 13, 2019)

My gut feeling is that Brexit is now finished.

The CBI etc. are beginning to come out into the open. 

Few MPs _really_ want Brexit, even the ERG types would prefer to remain and have a cause than accept a watered to Brino.

It's just a case at the moment of nobody wanting to take responsibility for pulling the plug on democracy.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 13, 2019)

What democracy?


----------



## chilango (Mar 13, 2019)

teqniq said:


> What democracy?


The one posh people talk about on the telly


----------



## Poi E (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> The amusing scenario would be if the EU said no to an extension. It would then be A. no deal exit or B. shit selves and revoke a50 or C. shit selves and sign up for May's deal. All ideas that the UK was a player on the world stage dashed for a thousand years.



Still got nukes. Still got a chance to be a rogue state Maybe a raffish state.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 13, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Just bloody well stay in and admit this whole fucking shitshow was never going to happen ffs


In bed? if only...


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

Brexit? That is so 2016!


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 13, 2019)

xenon said:


> Just catching up. But I think this sort of thinking is delusional.





xenon said:


> Actually bollocks. Those of you who still think that no deal can’t happen because Parliament will vote against it. You are fucking idiots. It is what will happen unless something else is actually passed. And you trust this Parliament to do the latter.
> 
> Fuckwits.



Whereas your thinking comes across as merely dipsomaniacal.


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 13, 2019)

At least they've solved the Northern Island border issue.  How to cut tariffs without installing a hard border. They are going to use a temporary 'honesty box' system. However I'm not sure if its going to work in practice even in the short term.  There is a small possibility that it could be exploited by smugglers.

No tariffs for Irish goods going to NI


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> At least they've solved the Northern Island border issue.  How to cut tariffs without installing a hard border. They are going to use a temporary 'honesty box' system. However I'm not sure if its going to work in practice even in the short term.  There is a small possibility that it could be exploited by smugglers.
> 
> No tariffs for Irish goods going to NI


I think smugglers who had something like 75 years plus dealing with a hard border will have no difficulty with post-29/3 arrangements


----------



## MrCurry (Mar 13, 2019)

Assuming “no deal” is rejected in today’s vote and tomorrow’s vote in favour of an extension passes, I guess we have a week of discussions with the EU before their answer comes back, and if it’s as negative as some on here suggest then with just over a week to Brexit day, the choices will be:

1) put the May deal to another vote and pass it
2) ignore today’s vote and go for “no deal Brexit” regardless
3) withdraw A50, have a bit of a think, election, referendum or whatever and come back next year to start the fun all over again

And even if they do give an extension and it’s taken up by the UK, the choices above still apply, just maybe 2 months down the line.

I can’t see how (3) can be justified to the public, and I believe there are more opposed to “no deal” than are opposed to May’s deal (we will find out later), so regardless of the vote yesterday I still expect May to get her deal through at the last minute when the other options have evaporated.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 13, 2019)




----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I think smugglers who had something like 75 years plus dealing with a hard border will have no difficulty with post-29/3 arrangements



Moonrakers plc.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 13, 2019)

The Independent Group doing ''new politcs'  didn't last long. 6 voting against May 4 voting with May. First big vote and they split already...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Moonrakers plc.


denizens of wiltshire? wtf?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> The Independent Group doing ''new politcs'  didn't last long. 6 voting against May 4 voting with May. First big vote and they split already...


the other 1 (or is it 2?) confused


----------



## chilango (Mar 13, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> The Independent Group doing ''new politcs'  didn't last long. 6 voting against May 4 voting with May. First big vote and they split already...



Did they? Which ones voted for May?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Assuming “no deal” is rejected in today’s vote and tomorrow’s vote in favour of an extension passes, I guess we have a week of discussions with the EU before their answer comes back, and if it’s as negative as some on here suggest then with just over a week to Brexit day, the choices will be:
> 
> 1) put the May deal to another vote and pass it
> 2) ignore today’s vote and go for “no deal Brexit” regardless
> ...



Presumably there is some way of May tabling her deal with a clause that says if it's voted down again A50 will be revoked. Then MP's would be faced with a simple choice between cancelling Brexit or leaving on the terms of May's deal, and if they chose to vote the deal down again May could then blame Parliament for the failure to Brexit. 

I don't know if I think May would have the confidence to do that, especially after all her various defeats - it could be a workable strategy especially after Parliament has voted to rule out no deal, but I think she'd probably be too worried that she would be blamed for it then she'd be removed and forever after be remembered as the PM who fucked up Brexit. Alternatively her deal is so manifestly hated by everyone if it got through she might have the same problem. 

I think that's what I would do if I were May (ugh) and I really believed her deal was the best way. But probably not what she will do.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> denizens of wiltshire? wtf?



And renowned for their panache for smuggling.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> The Independent Group doing ''new politcs'  didn't last long. 6 voting against May 4 voting with May. First big vote and they split already...



Serious? Got a link?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

chilango said:


> Did they? Which ones voted for May?



Her darling buddies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> And renowned for their panache for smuggling.


yeh i can't see people from wiltshire being quite so good at smuggling in the six counties as they may be in england, being as their accents would stand out a mile in places like fermanagh, tyrone and of course south armagh


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh i can't see people from wiltshire being quite so good at smuggling in the six counties as they may be in england, being as their accents would stand out a mile in places like fermanagh, tyrone and of course south armagh



Okay, moving on.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Presumably there is some way of May tabling her deal with a clause that says if it's voted down again A50 will be revoked. Then MP's would be faced with a simple choice between cancelling Brexit or leaving on the terms of May's deal, and if they chose to vote the deal down again May could then blame Parliament for the failure to Brexit.
> 
> I don't know if I think May would have the confidence to do that, especially after all her various defeats - it could be a workable strategy especially after Parliament has voted to rule out no deal, but I think she'd probably be too worried that she would be blamed for it then she'd be removed and forever after be remembered as the PM who fucked up Brexit. Alternatively her deal is so manifestly hated by everyone if it got through she might have the same problem.
> 
> I think that's what I would do if I were May (ugh) and I really believed her deal was the best way. But probably not what she will do.



Could someone else not table an amendment to that telling her to jog on, which would then get voted through and make her look like an idiot again?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

chilango said:


> My gut feeling is that Brexit is now finished.
> 
> The CBI etc. are beginning to come out into the open.
> 
> ...


For that to work, May would need to work out how to manoeuvre someone, presumably Labour, into taking the fall for it, then the Tories would need to work out how to not become the party to vote for to get Brexit back.  And then if there’s no home for Leavers, that opens space for the far right.

I think May’s government has to just keep stumbling forward, offering a version of a deal nobody wants.  I can’t work out how they think they can do anything else.

If today parliament votes to reject the idea of No Deal, then they need to find an acceptable deal (acceptable to parliament and the EU) before any deadline, however extended. That doesn’t seem possible with this parliament. The only logical way to hope to fix that is to hold a general election in the hope that this shakes up the numbers in parliament enough. Which May already tried, but got worse arithmetic than she’d started with.

But even though the Tory membership is pretty Leavey, the pool of Tory candidates is going to be like the pool of MPs: looking for ways to please the CBI, the BCC, and so on. They’re pretty Remainy.

I don’t know what move anyone can make.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> The Independent Group doing ''new politcs'  didn't last long. 6 voting against May 4 voting with May. First big vote and they split already...


the only breakdown I can find is here, which has them all voting against.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Could someone else not table an amendment to that telling her to jog on, which would then get voted through and make her look like an idiot again?



I'm not sure if that form of words would be considered legally binding


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> The Independent Group doing ''new politcs'  didn't last long. 6 voting against May 4 voting with May. First big vote and they split already...


That's not correct.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

four independent MPs voted for, but they will be Field, Austin, Hopkins and Lloyd (the Lib Dem who resigned the whip to support brexit) I think?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> That's not correct.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> the only breakdown I can find is here, which has them all voting against.



Yeah they're listed here as voting against. Did my MP vote for or against Theresa May’s Brexit deal?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> four independent MPs voted for, but they will be Field, Austin, Hopkins and Lloyd (the Lib Dem who resigned the whip to support brexit) I think?



Yep.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Yep.


three out of four ain't bad


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> four independent MPs voted for, but they will be Field, Austin, Hopkins and Lloyd (the Lib Dem who resigned the whip to support brexit) I think?


except for hopkins, who voted against the government


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> For that to work, May would need to work out how to manoeuvre someone, presumably Labour, into taking the fall for it, then the Tories would need to work out how to not become the party to vote for to get Brexit back.  And then if there’s no home for Leavers, that opens space for the far right.
> 
> I think May’s government has to just keep stumbling forward, offering a version of a deal nobody wants.  I can’t work out how they think they can do anything else.
> 
> ...



For the situation to be resolved May has to go, but if May goes the situation has to be resolved.  Not an attractive prospect for would be PM's.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 13, 2019)

I'm still predicting a crash out. 

No vote for May's deal. No vote for people's vote, no vote for no deal..  Time runs out .. CRASH


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I'm still predicting a crash out.
> 
> No vote for May's deal. No vote for people's vote, no vote for no deal..  Time runs out .. CRASH


you won't believe what happens next then


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I'm still predicting a crash out.
> 
> No vote for May's deal. No vote for people's vote, no vote for no deal..  Time runs out .. CRASH



What about when Parliament votes to extend A50? Do you think the EU would refuse the extension?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Do you think the EU would refuse the extension?


i do. i don't see why they would extend it, to hash over the same auld shite again. which will lead to mps peering over the abyss into no deal, and - i suspect - a resolution will be found.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> What about when Parliament votes to extend A50? Do you think the EU would refuse the extension?



Nah, don't think Europe want it either I just think an A50 extention might well be voted down too.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

Three Labour MPs voted for though, which is low - I was seeing speculation yesterday it could be as high as 20.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> Three Labour MPs voted for though, which is low - I was seeing speculation yesterday it could be as high as 20.


Hoey changed sides. Don't know why.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hoey changed sides. Don't know why.


She didn't change sides, she's voting with the hard brexit tories.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> She didn't change sides, she's voting with the hard brexit tories.


She changed her vote from last time.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 13, 2019)

As we all know Brexit has been a goldmine for fans of utterly meaningless and trite statements repeated over and over again as if they're some sort of insight.

My current favourite is 'the Brexit people voted for'.  If there is one thing that should be stupidly obvious to everyone now is that there is no such thing as one Brexit that everyone voted for.  I see the Mail is going with it again this morning despite many of Brexit's most vocal supporters in Parliament voting against the deal.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> She changed her vote from last time.


ah, gotcha. that is a bit odd.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> She changed her vote from last time.



You sure? How odd.

There was some weird changes though.  I see Goldsmith changed sides and voted for the exact same deal he rejected earlier.  I'm sure its nothing to do with some MP's looking over their shoulders with the potential for another election around the corner.

I do get the feeling with some of the tories that changed sides that they saw it as a shot to nothing.  The knew the deal wouldn't pass so they were afe in voting for it and can then say 'at least I tried, it was everyone else's fault'.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

Our three local MPs (all Labour) voted one of each option.
One for
One against
One (my MP) cannot vote.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i do. i don't see why they would extend it, to hash over the same auld shite again. which will lead to mps peering over the abyss into no deal, and - i suspect - a resolution will be found.



Bit hardball though innit? Not saying it's impossible. But why risk no deal when Britain staying in the EU and looking like a very sorry warning to anyone else trying to leave looks like a very achievable goal right now?

Additionally, No Deal is a more useful tool to the EU project as an abstract abyss rather than a reality. Sure, there'd be chaos for a while, prices could fluctuate, jobs would be under threat (although could be saved by robust worker action and demands for nationalisation etc) but things would stabilise to an extent and the Doomsday scenario vision of No Deal would be somewhat dented. 

Plus which Parliament voting for an extension sort of gives the EU carte blanche to ask for whatever they want, provided they phrase it politely like a kindly but exasperated uncle.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Nah, don't think Europe want it either I just think an A50 extention might well be voted down too.



They'll definitely vote for an extension.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> ah, gotcha. that is a bit odd.



Charitably you could say she wanted to vote for May's deal but didn't want to vote to prop up May. 

Less charitably, she thinks there's an election coming.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Bit hardball though innit? Not saying it's impossible. But why risk no deal when Britain staying in the EU and looking like a very sorry warning to anyone else trying to leave looks like a very achievable goal right now?
> 
> Additionally, No Deal is a more useful tool to the EU project as an abstract abyss rather than a reality. Sure, there'd be chaos for a while, prices could fluctuate, jobs would be under threat (although could be saved by robust worker action and demands for nationalisation etc) but things would stabilise to an extent and the Doomsday scenario vision of No Deal would be somewhat dented.
> 
> Plus which Parliament voting for an extension sort of gives the EU carte blanche to ask for whatever they want, provided they phrase it politely like a kindly but exasperated uncle.


oh i think we'll be in the eu every day this year
i suspect the mps will look into the no deal abyss, consult their consciences, and look again at article 50


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> oh i think we'll be in the eu every day this year
> i suspect the mps will look into the no deal abyss, consult their consciences, and look again at article 50



Nah. They'll do that after a couple more extensions. They're not sure everyone's bored enough yet. I mean, we're not bored enough - we're still talking about it. How many threads have we had and we're on 22 pages for this latest one?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

We could see more extensions than Nick Knowles has!


----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2019)

Does anyone understand the process for negotiating the extension?

1. Assume MPs vote against no deal today and in favour of extension tomorrow.
2. EU says fine but in order to grant one we need X, Y & Z.
3. ???

Is step 3 an executive decision? Going back to Parliament would cause more chaos.


----------



## andysays (Mar 13, 2019)

Winot said:


> Does anyone understand the process for negotiating the extension?
> 
> 1. Assume MPs vote against no deal today and in favour of extension tomorrow.
> 2. EU says fine but in order to grant one we need X, Y & Z.
> ...


Still plenty more chaos to look forward to, whatever happens


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 13, 2019)

chilango said:


> Did they? Which ones voted for May?


Not seen it broken down yet.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> Not seen it broken down yet.


we've broken it down for you upthread - none of them did.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> Not seen it broken down yet.


It was non-tinge indies who voted for.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> Not seen it broken down yet.


They all voted against the deal (with Labour).


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

I heard they all voted against.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> I heard they all voted against.


No, they all voted against.
let's hope that's cleared it up?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> Not seen it broken down yet.


try post 631


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> this is cute.


You have a better plan? Preferably one that doesn’t involve the word “democracy”.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

How did the Tinge party vote?


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> You have a better plan? Preferably one that doesn’t involve the word “democracy”.


I don't have a plan - what would be the point? My prediction on what's likely to happen - fwiw - is still that things will eventually settle on some kind of Norway-ish compromise (although I wouldn't be surprised if May's deal eventually goes through, or there's an accidental no deal crash out, or even - though this is the least likely to my mind - a second referendum). The one thing I'm confident of is that there won't be a unilateral withdrawal of A50 though. That _is_ unicorns.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> How did the Tinge party vote?


Independently, with Labour!


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Independently, with Labour!


What, all of them?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> What, all of them?



Some of them, at least.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

8ball said:


> Some of them, at least.


Less than 12, though.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't have a plan - what would be the point? My prediction on what's likely to happen - fwiw - is still that things will eventually settle on some kind of Norway-ish compromise (although I wouldn't be surprised if May's deal eventually goes through, or there's an accidental no deal crash out, or even - though this is the least likely to my mind - a second referendum). The one thing I'm confident of is that there won't be a unilateral withdrawal of A50 though. That _is_ unicorns.


shows how confusing this all is. I judge no deal crash out to be the unicorns scenario. Withdrawing A50 would happen first. A really big majority today against no deal, which I think is possible, may start turning the tide on certain matters.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> shows how confusing this all is. I judge no deal crash out to be the unicorns scenario. Withdrawing A50 would happen first. A really big majority today against no deal, which I think is possible, may start turning the tide on certain matters.



I think they're both unicorns because Parliament won't allow No Deal and May won't withdraw A50. There will be an extension, and possibly another one, until May goes and I don't see her being replaced with someone who will go for No Deal.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I think they're both unicorns because Parliament won't allow No Deal and May won't withdraw A50. There will be an extension, and possibly another one, until May goes and I don't see her being replaced with someone who will go for No Deal.


Oh, well my prediction fwiw is an extension. And that's all I'm prepared to predict at this stage. That ought to be accompanied by May resigning, but we've been there before. May is now the blockage in this whole process.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

Parliamentary arithmatic and the need to hold the conservative party together is the blockage. May just happens to be the person at the top right now.


----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Oh, well my prediction fwiw is an extension. And that's all I'm prepared to predict at this stage. That ought to be accompanied by May resigning, but we've been there before. May is now the blockage in this whole process.



Agree on all counts. Can't see the EU not allowing an extension. The interesting question is what happens when we ask for a 2nd extension.


----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2019)

It has been pointed out this morning that in pursuit of an independent trade policy the UK is heading for a no deal in which it puts up tariffs. The price of an imported family car will go up by about £1500. Oh - except if the dealer imports it from IE into NI and then sends it to the UK.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> Parliamentary arithmatic and the need to hold the conservative party together is the blockage. May just happens to be the person at the top right now.


Exactly; hence her backing down this am to the ERG about a free vote on Malthouse.


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2019)

Thing is how do you get certainty into any of this? I mean the way our constitution functions effectively requires that we have a strong cross party agreement, and that support for it is ongoing. And there really doesn’t seem any chance of that at the moment.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I judge no deal crash out to be the unicorns scenario.



I thought the unicorns had been indefinitely detained at Calais.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

Cid said:


> Thing is how do you get certainty into any of this? I mean the way our constitution functions effectively requires that we have a strong cross party agreement, and that support for it is ongoing. And there really doesn’t seem any chance of that at the moment.


The process was doomed the moment the 2017 election results were announced. I suspect that May has known this all along. But she's blundered on regardless, doing exactly what she was planning to do with the majority of 50-80 that she expected.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> Parliamentary arithmatic and the need to hold the conservative party together is the blockage. May just happens to be the person at the top right now.



Sure but you need an election to change the arithmetic.


----------



## rubbershoes (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Less than 12, though.



Fewer


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Sure but you need an election to change the arithmetic.


yes, that's right.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 13, 2019)

rubbershoes said:


> Fewer



no such rule. unless its another diktat from brussels i was previously unaware of.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 13, 2019)

There was a flow chart posted on one of the other threads about Brexit outcome likely hood. Can anyone find it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> There was a flow chart posted on one of the other threads about Brexit outcome likely hood. Can anyone find it?


here's a new one from the bbc


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The process was doomed the moment


may took over


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 13, 2019)

So despite all the farting about we're no clearer on anything than the day after Brexit vote.


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The process was doomed the moment the 2017 election results were announced. I suspect that May has known this all along. But she's blundered on regardless, doing exactly what she was planning to do with the majority of 50-80 that she expected.



Even then it would have been pretty marginal surely... I mean on pure numbers she’d still be losing. Though of course many other factors would be in play, which is why counterfactuals are a bit crap. 

The broader point being that any future government that does have a significant majority can just piss any marginal agreement up the wall... were I negotiating for the eu, I’d be somewhat worried about that. Far as I can see the only option that doesn’t involve the eu asking for some significant changes to how our constitution works is crashing out. Unless you got a strong cross party consensus.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 13, 2019)

I dont understand Malthouse


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

Cid said:


> Even then it would have been pretty marginal surely... I mean on pure numbers she’d still be losing. Though of course many other factors would be in play, which is why counterfactuals are a bit crap.


With a majority of 50+, she could have pushed through a deal without ERG support. I think that was her plan with calling that election - judging that a majority of 12 wasn't enough to get any deal through. But without any majority at all, that plan went up in smoke. It's one of the many absurdities that she's just blundered on without a hope of success. I can only assume that she hoped Labour would split on the issue and help her out. I don't see what other idea she might have had.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I dont understand Malthouse


It won't pass in Parliament..so don't waste too much brain-space on it.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> It won't pass in Parliament..so don't waste too much brain-space on it.


done


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> It won't pass in Parliament..so don't waste too much brain-space on it.



Plus the EU probably wouldn't go along with it either.


----------



## andysays (Mar 13, 2019)

8ball said:


> I thought the unicorns had been indefinitely detained at Calais.


I thought it was still possible to import unicorns tariff-free via the Irish border


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> They all voted against the deal (with Labour).



BBC had them split...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

andysays said:


> I thought it was still possible to import unicorns tariff-free via the Irish border


it was


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I dont understand Malthouse


----------



## ska invita (Mar 13, 2019)

andysays said:


> I thought it was still possible to import unicorns tariff-free via the Irish border


Total aside, but did you know on the UK crest like on the passport the lion represents England and the unicorn Scotland
Read that yesterday


----------



## andysays (Mar 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Total aside, but did you know on the UK crest like on the passport the lion represents England and the unicorn Scotland
> Read that yesterday


Yes, I did


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Total aside, but did you know on the UK crest like on the passport the lion represents England and the unicorn Scotland
> Read that yesterday


have you ever noticed the quim on the crest?


----------



## Patteran (Mar 13, 2019)

Campaigning journalist Carole Cadwalladr pushing the suggestion that the Leave EU lobby's next move will be to convince international allies in Italy (& perhaps Hungary) to veto Article 50 extension. I don't know how credible this is or isn't. Presumably if the EU's senior managers want an extension, then they'll have some fairly weighty & obnoxious leverage of their own to exploit in order to assure the necessary unanimity.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> BBC had them split...


either you've misread 4 independents voting with the tories as 4 independent (group) voting with the tories, or they had it listed wrong. Either way, all 11 independent group members voted against.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Total aside, but did you know on the UK crest like on the passport the lion represents England and the unicorn Scotland
> Read that yesterday


Yes. I assumed most people knew that.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 13, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Campaigning journalist Carole Cadwalladr pushing the suggestion that the Leave EU lobby's next move will be to convince international allies in Italy (& perhaps Hungary) to veto Article 50 extension. I don't know how credible this is or isn't. Presumably if the EU's senior managers want an extension, then they'll have some fairly weighty & obnoxious leverage of their own to exploit in order to assure the necessary unanimity.



I kind of hope A50 does get blocked. Leaves a few days of genuinely meaningful action to sort this out without it dragging on for however long. Same difference bodging it this last week or the last week in May.
And if the link there is true shows up the cuntish forces at work nicely

she also just posted


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

Hmmm. Not sure promises made to Farage, Banks or ERG headbangers are worth much. Under pressure from Germany, France, Netherlands et al to allow an extension, we'll see what decision they make.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> have you ever noticed the quim on the crest?
> View attachment 164352


quimcunx likes this


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The process was doomed the moment the 2017 election results were announced. I suspect that May has known this all along. But she's blundered on regardless, doing exactly what she was planning to do with the majority of 50-80 that she expected.


At that point she had the assumed power to drive through a deal without a vote in the house.  The High Court changed that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I kind of hope A50 does get blocked. Leaves a few days of genuinely meaningful action to sort this out without it dragging on for however long. Same difference bodging it this last week or the last week in May.
> And if the link there is true shows up the cuntish forces at work nicely
> 
> she also just posted



So it'll be catastrophic no deal or catastrophic revoke a.50.

Hmm

Wonder which parliament would go for


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> At that point she had the assumed power to drive through a deal without a vote in the house.  The High Court changed that.


Good point. I'd forgotten that one in the long list of _things this government has lost_.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I kind of hope A50 does get blocked. Leaves a few days of genuinely meaningful action to sort this out without it dragging on for however long. Same difference bodging it this last week or the last week in May.
> And if the link there is true shows up the cuntish forces at work nicely
> 
> she also just posted




This is true. The Polish PIS party are tabling a motion to give UK nationals a right to remain post Brexit.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I kind of hope A50 does get blocked. Leaves a few days of genuinely meaningful action to sort this out without it dragging on for however long. Same difference bodging it this last week or the last week in May.
> And if the link there is true shows up the cuntish forces at work nicely
> 
> she also just posted




I would imagine the wishes of the UK government and the EU would carry a bit more weight with the governments of Italy and Hungary then those of Farage and Banks - what do they get out it? 
The most i can see is that they use it as a negotiating chip with the EU and/or Uk. No deal would damage them as well - not as much as the uk - but their own trade with the uk would be affected.


----------



## Patteran (Mar 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> So it'll be catastrophic no deal or catastrophic revoke a.50.
> 
> Hmm
> 
> Wonder which parliament would go for


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> How did the Tinge party vote?


Nobody on this thread seems to know. I bet Pickers could tell you though.


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Campaigning journalist Carole Cadwalladr pushing the suggestion that the Leave EU lobby's next move will be to convince international allies in Italy (& perhaps Hungary) to veto Article 50 extension. I don't know how credible this is or isn't. Presumably if the EU's senior managers want an extension, then they'll have some fairly weighty & obnoxious leverage of their own to exploit in order to assure the necessary unanimity.




Yup, saw that.  Remember, all the 27 other EU countries have to agree to an extension of Article 50, if the UK Government even gets to the point of asking.  It only takes one to say no, and it's "nil points" to Britain.

Funny how Brexit was sold as Britain "taking back control" but so many of those determined for Britain to be out pronto on 29th March are pushing for _other_ EU nations to deny the UK control.

There's the asshole Shrewsbury MP Daniel Kawczynski, who has been lobbying the Polish Government to reject an extension.  Hardly unimaginable that Banks and Wigmore could be pulling strings with Italy as well, is it?  I mean . . .  



So, this afternoon, Parliament will be pissing around with a "debate" on whether to take "no deal" off the menu, then voting tonight.  It's an absolute waste of time.

Even if it passes, it means fuck all because "No Deal" is the default on 29th March, unless the UK requests and is granted an extension.  That's not guaranteed, and even if a unicorn flies in with this pinned to its horn, it doesn't really resolve the clusterfuck - it only buys a bit of time, during which I'd wager nothing useful would happen.

So, it's quite likely there will only be two possible outcomes in 16 days time.

-  The UK revokes Article 50.  This doesn't require agreement of the other EU nations.  We're in such a constitutional mess that I'm not sure whether May can just do this unilaterally on behalf of the Government, or requires the agreement of Parliament.  If it's the latter, well, I wouldn't put much money on it happening.

-  The UK leaves the EU on 29th March without a "deal."  Brace yourselves.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 13, 2019)

Winot said:


> It has been pointed out this morning that in pursuit of an independent trade policy the UK is heading for a no deal in which it puts up tariffs. The price of an imported family car will go up by about £1500. Oh - except if the dealer imports it from IE into NI and then sends it to the UK.



A Brexit boost for Eire and NI. The philosophical chap won’t be happy about that.


----------



## xenon (Mar 13, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> BBC had them split...




 Not all independent MPs are in the Tinge.  As we are now calling them. Independent group.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 13, 2019)

You don't honestly think that a few headbangers with no power have more influence over European national governments than the EU or even UK government do? Surely? 

Banks must love the idea that he's some kind of machiavelian evil genius who can get national governments to do his bidding. What a strange world some people inhabit.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

CRI said:


> -  The UK revokes Article 50.  This doesn't require agreement of the other EU nations.  We're in such a constitutional mess that I'm not sure whether May can just do this unilaterally on behalf of the Government, or requires the agreement of Parliament.  If it's the latter, well, I wouldn't put much money on it happening.


That one bit I can answer. The EU ruling (ECJ, was it?) stated that A50 can be unilaterally revoked as long as the UK has followed its own constitutional procedures. That has been widely interpreted as meaning that the government goes to parliament and the parliament votes.

EU has also said that this applies right up to 11pm on 29 March. Parliament could potentially be called to an emergency session at 10pm on that day and A50 could be revoked.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

A Communication Director using the 'grocer's apostrophe'. For shame.


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That one bit I can answer. The EU ruling (ECJ, was it?) stated that A50 can be unilaterally revoked as long as the UK has followed its own constitutional procedures. That has been widely interpreted as meaning that the government goes to parliament and the parliament votes.
> 
> EU has also said that this applies right up to 11pm on 29 March. Parliament could potentially be called to an emergency session at 10pm on that day and A50 could be revoked.


Thanks for that clarification.  I had a vague recollection she couldn't just get on the phone and say, "It's off," but with all the crap flying here and there, I wasn't sure.

What's your thoughts on this?  Do you think that will happen?  I just can't wrap my head around all the fannying about that's going on, if there are genuinely enough MPs intent on halting the crash out.  Maybe cliff hangers like this are good for murder mysteries, but not for politics.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Nobody on this thread seems to know. I bet Pickers could tell you though.





And to think killer b said this would stop being funny.


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A Communication Director using the 'grocer's apostrophe'. For shame.


Maybe went to the Hope Hicks college of communications!


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

I don't think it ever started tbf


----------



## Flavour (Mar 13, 2019)

That would be funny if the EU refused an extension request. I doubt it would be because of Lega nord though. They all know an extension is pointless while may is in charge


----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2019)

CRI said:


> -  The UK revokes Article 50.  This doesn't require agreement of the other EU nations.  We're in such a constitutional mess that I'm not sure whether May can just do this unilaterally on behalf of the Government, or requires the agreement of Parliament.  If it's the latter, well, I wouldn't put much money on it happening.



My understanding is that it's not just revoking Art. 50 that's needed but also revoking the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which will require Parliamentary approval.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Banks must love the idea that he's some kind of machiavelian evil genius who can get national governments to do his bidding.


tbh he doesn't seem to have much luck with hmg


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

Winot said:


> My understanding is that it's not just revoking Art. 50 that's needed but also revoking the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which will require Parliamentary approval.


if they revoke the one i doubt they will hesitate to repeal the other


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

CRI said:


> Thanks for that clarification.  I had a vague recollection she couldn't just get on the phone and say, "It's off," but with all the crap flying here and there, I wasn't sure.
> 
> What's your thoughts on this?  Do you think that will happen?  I just can't wrap my head around all the fannying about that's going on, if there are genuinely enough MPs intent on halting the crash out.  Maybe cliff hangers like this are good for murder mysteries, but not for politics.


As I said earlier, the only prediction I'm prepared to make at the moment is that an extension will be requested and that it will be granted. Beyond that I really don't know. I do think that a big majority today against 'no deal' (which I think is probable) would make it very hard indeed for parliament to vote against a motion brought by the govt to revoke A50. How this or a different govt gets to the position where it asks parliament to revoke A50, I don't know: once it is properly staring at the abyss, as someone else said, a fair few things become possible.


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> With a majority of 50+, she could have pushed through a deal without ERG support. I think that was her plan with calling that election - judging that a majority of 12 wasn't enough to get any deal through. But without any majority at all, that plan went up in smoke. It's one of the many absurdities that she's just blundered on without a hope of success. I can only assume that she hoped Labour would split on the issue and help her out. I don't see what other idea she might have had.



Like I said I don’t really care about the counterfactual element. What I was getting at is that a50 revoke, or a long-term withdrawal agreement will (potentially) require either a form of non-revocable constitutional law, or enough cross party agreement to make it meaningful. Whereas no deal just requires ongoing incompetence.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 13, 2019)

If parliament votes against a no deal, then the EU says no to an extension, parliament will have 2 choices, withdraw A50 or vote again on the no-deal option and get enough MPs to vote the other way.

If I were the EU, I'd bet the fucking house on A50 withdrawal.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

Cid said:


> Like I said I don’t really care about the counterfactual element. What I was getting at is that a50 revoke, or a long-term withdrawal agreement will (potentially) require either a form of non-revocable constitutional law, or enough cross party agreement to make it meaningful. Whereas no deal just requires ongoing incompetence.


Not really. A50 revoke requires one motion in parliament with one vote. Everything else is detail - once it's been revoked, everything that was due to change on 29 March is just cancelled. It will need to be postponed with an extension anyway.

There would be lots of detail - Euro elections would need to be arranged for starters - but that doesn't all have to be done first for A50 to be withdrawn.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Mar 13, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If parliament votes against a no deal, then the EU says no to an extension, parliament will have 2 choices, withdraw A50 or vote again on the no-deal option and get enough MPs to vote the other way.
> 
> If I were the EU, I'd bet the fucking house on A50 withdrawal.



Or vote yet again on the deal option.  Repeat daily until enough MPs are panicked into submission (ERG by the threat of A50 withdrawal, everyone else by the threat of no deal), leave with a deal that originally lost In parliament by a record amount and has had no changes worth mentioning.  Celebrate democracy in action.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> As I said earlier, the only prediction I'm prepared to make at the moment is that an extension will be requested and that it will be granted. Beyond that I really don't know. I do think that a big majority today against 'no deal' (which I think is probable) would make it very hard indeed for parliament to vote against a motion brought by the govt to revoke A50. How this or a different govt gets to the position where it asks parliament to revoke A50, I don't know: once it is properly staring at the abyss, as someone else said, a fair few things become possible.


quoted because as things stand no extension will be agreed


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not really. A50 revoke requires one motion in parliament with one vote. Everything else is detail - once it's been revoked, everything that was due to change on 29 March is just cancelled. It will need to be postponed with an extension anyway.
> 
> There would be lots of detail - Euro elections would need to be arranged for starters - but that doesn't all have to be done first for A50 to be withdrawn.



You don’t think they might want some kind of agreement that prevents us from leaving again say the next time a GE comes around?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

Cid said:


> You don’t think they might want some kind of agreement that prevents us from leaving again say the next time a GE comes around?


Who's they? If you mean the EU then no.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> quoted because as things stand no extension will be agreed



I'm not so sure about that - I think that while the EU will take the view that an extension of, say, 3 months is a bit of a waste of time and we'll be back in exactly the same place, they will also not want to be seen as the bad guy. 

If the UK government asks for an extension and the EU says no, then that would be seen as being a massive slap in face _to those who wanted a deal with the EU. _The next PM, or even May, would be politically bound to give a massive FUCK YOU to the EU and remain/rejoin support would hit the floor.

For the sake of a couple of months delay the EU can look like patient grown ups - which helps the REF2.0 crowd - and causes chaos in the brexiteers. I'd be astonished if they refuse....


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Who's they? If you mean the EU then no.



Obviously. I suppose the govt might get away with it given the advantages to the eu of revoking. But it is a weird situation.


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2019)

Cid said:


> Like I said I don’t really care about the counterfactual element. What I was getting at is that a50 revoke, or a long-term withdrawal agreement will (potentially) require either a form of non-revocable constitutional law, or enough cross party agreement to make it meaningful. Whereas no deal just requires ongoing incompetence.


This is what worries me.  I'm an optimist by nature, but one thing the current government and opposition seem really good at is incompetence.  Unless that's all just a show, we're banking on them suddenly becoming incredibly competent, decisive and putting party politics aside - all within the next 16 days.  It's a big ask.

Remember, the default remains leaving with No Deal on 29th March, unless specific action is taken to stop that.  It's not a straight either or choice.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> I'm not so sure about that - I think that while the EU will take the view that an extension of, say, 3 months is a bit of a waste of time and we'll be back in exactly the same place, they will also not want to be seen as the bad guy.
> 
> If the UK government asks for an extension and the EU says no, then that would be seen as being a massive slap in face _to those who wanted a deal with the EU. _The next PM, or even May, would be politically bound to give a massive FUCK YOU to the EU and remain/rejoin support would hit the floor.
> 
> For the sake of a couple of months delay the EU can look like patient grown ups - which helps the REF2.0 crowd - and causes chaos in the brexiteers. I'd be astonished if they refuse....



Imagine if they were magnanimous enough to let us have _two _short extensions. Nothing would have changed but they'd look so _reasonable. _


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> I'm not so sure about that - I think that while the EU will take the view that an extension of, say, 3 months is a bit of a waste of time and we'll be back in exactly the same place, they will also not want to be seen as the bad guy.
> 
> If the UK government asks for an extension and the EU says no, then that would be seen as being a massive slap in face _to those who wanted a deal with the EU. _The next PM, or even May, would be politically bound to give a massive FUCK YOU to the EU and remain/rejoin support would hit the floor.
> 
> For the sake of a couple of months delay the EU can look like patient grown ups - which helps the REF2.0 crowd - and causes chaos in the brexiteers. I'd be astonished if they refuse....


It's still 27 separate nations that have to agree it, even if leadership within the EU is pushing them hard.  

If the UK government is serious about potentially wanting an extension, shouldn't they starting a charm offensive with the EU27, especially those most likely to be lukewarm on the matter?  Taking an extension for granted is seriously stupid, if that's what they're banking on to save their bacon.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> I'm not so sure about that - I think that while the EU will take the view that an extension of, say, 3 months is a bit of a waste of time and we'll be back in exactly the same place, they will also not want to be seen as the bad guy.
> 
> If the UK government asks for an extension and the EU says no, then that would be seen as being a massive slap in face _to those who wanted a deal with the EU. _The next PM, or even May, would be politically bound to give a massive FUCK YOU to the EU and remain/rejoin support would hit the floor.
> 
> For the sake of a couple of months delay the EU can look like patient grown ups - which helps the REF2.0 crowd - and causes chaos in the brexiteers. I'd be astonished if they refuse....



Would agree under normal times, but the EU  is facing a whole heap of extra shit in the coming months that has nothing to do with Brexit. It's either kick it down the road for a minimum 2 years, or get it finished now. Is what I reckon, who sodding knows, with the bunch of cunts running the shitshow on both sides anything is possible.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

CRI said:


> I'm an optimist by nature



Are you bollocks you love nothing more than predicting impending disaster


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> If the UK government asks for an extension and the EU says no, then that would be seen as being a massive slap in face _to those who wanted a deal with the EU._


tosh. AS THINGS STAND there is nothing further to discuss, because of all the red lines may has set out. if she said, i'm removing this red line and that red line, THEN you'd see the eu agree an extension. if the government asks for an extension now, the eu would, indeed have, said there's nothing further to talk about because there has been a deal negotiated and it's up to the uk to come up with fresh proposals.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Would agree under normal times, but the EU  is facing a whole heap of extra shit in the coming months that has nothing to do with Brexit. It's either kick it down the road for a minimum 2 years, or get it finished now. Is what I reckon, who sodding knows, with the bunch of cunts running the shitshow on both sides anything is possible.



Good point but might just increase their desire to seem reasonable.


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2019)

Cid said:


> Whereas no deal just requires ongoing incompetence.



At last, something they've got covered.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tosh. AS THINGS STAND there is nothing further to discuss, because of all the red lines may has set out. if she said, i'm removing this red line and that red line, THEN you'd see the eu agree an extension. if the government asks for an extension now, the eu would, indeed have, said there's nothing further to talk about because there has been a deal negotiated and it's up to the uk to come up with fresh proposals.



Sure but they will say the red lines have to be altered, they will be and then they will agree an extension.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

Nikki Morgan saying that if votes tonight and tomorrow go against May the cabinet will "have to have a conversation as to whether her position is tenable".


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

The vote tonight is a free vote isn't it? How could it go against May?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Nikki Morgan saying that if votes tonight and tomorrow go against May the cabinet will "have to have a conversation as to whether her position is tenable".



It's a free vote.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> The vote tonight is a free vote isn't it? How could it go against May?



They're both government motions I think?  

Given that they are both likely to pass (no deal off the table and extension of A50) a double defeat seems very unlikely.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

Isn't May planning to vote against 'no deal', or was that misinformation? 

Lol at the idea that the tenability of her position demands a conversation.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> The vote tonight is a free vote isn't it? How could it go against May?



Was just about to ask this...


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Lol at the idea that the tenability of her position demands a conversation.


Her position appears to be tenable, no matter how much you want it not to be.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> They're both government motions I think?
> 
> Given that they are both likely to pass (no deal off the table and extension of A50) a double defeat seems very unlikely.


Ok, hostage to fortune, and pickers can quote this post if he likes. I'm going to predict a huge majority against no deal this evening. 500 – 100-odd.


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Are you bollocks you love nothing more than predicting impending disaster


Jesus, keep your fingers in your ears and your hands over your eyes if you need to then, or just block me perhaps?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> Her position appears to be tenable, no matter how much you want it not to be.


...or it's been untenable for months... She's been wile e coyote pumping her legs furiously for a long time now, with no ground underneath her.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok, hostage to fortune, and pickers can quote this post if he likes. I'm going to predict a huge majority against no deal this evening. 500 – 100-odd.



Yes the government motion is for no deal to be taken off the agenda.  So presumably Labour and the SNP etc will be voting with the government.  I reckon you won't be far away.  About 100 seems right to me.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> The vote tonight is a free vote isn't it? How could it go against May?





Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's a free vote.



I thought that too but that's what Nikki Morgan said - May voting against so I guess she means if no deal wins or if Parliament votes for an extension.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

The main motion is pretty fudgy tbh. It isn't actually a motion to reject no deal at all:

_That this House declines to approve leaving the European Union without a Withdrawal Agreement and a Framework for the Future Relationship on 29 March 2019; and notes that leaving without a deal remains the default in UK and EU law unless this House and the EU ratify an agreement._

There's two amendments to vote on, one which is a motion to actually take no deal off the table (Spelman's)

_Line 1, leave out from “House” to end and add “rejects the United Kingdom leaving the European Union without a Withdrawal Agreement and a Framework for the Future Relationship.”._

And Damien Green's (which everyone is calling Malthouse 2 for some reason) which looks like changing it to approving no deal to me?: 

_At end, add “; notes the steps taken by the Government, the EU and its Member States to minimise any disruption that may occur should the UK leave the EU without an agreed Withdrawal Agreement and proposes that the Government should build on this work as follows:

1. That the Government should publish the UK’s Day One Tariff Schedules immediately;

2. To allow businesses to prepare for the operation of those tariffs, that the Government should seek an extension of the Article 50 process to 10.59pm on 22 May 2019, at which point the UK would leave the EU;

3. Thereafter, in a spirit of co-operation and in order to begin discussions on the Future Relationship, the Government should offer a further set of mutual standstill agreements with the EU and Member States for an agreed period ending no later than 30 December 2021, during which period the UK would pay an agreed sum equivalent to its net EU contributions and satisfy its other public international law obligations; and

4. The Government should unilaterally guarantee the rights of EU citizens resident in the UK.”.


_


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

CRI said:


> Jesus, keep your fingers in your ears and your hands over your eyes if you need to then, or just block me perhaps?



I like to know what you're saying.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> The main motion is pretty fudgy tbh. It isn't actually a motion to reject no deal at all:
> 
> _That this House declines to approve leaving the European Union without a Withdrawal Agreement and a Framework for the Future Relationship on 29 March 2019; and notes that leaving without a deal remains the default in UK and EU law unless this House and the EU ratify an agreement._
> 
> ...


Ta for that. Ok so everyone more or less will vote for the main bit and they'll be split along hard brexit/everyone else lines for the second.


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I like to know what you're saying.


Your call.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Sure but they will say the red lines have to be altered, they will be and then they will agree an extension.


yeh that's what i said, when the red lines change an extension's on the cards


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I thought that too but that's what Nikki Morgan said - May voting against so I guess she means if no deal wins or if Parliament votes for an extension.



May is voting for not against.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> pickers can quote this post if he likes


no one here needs permission to quote your posts


----------



## andysays (Mar 13, 2019)

Just to correct what seems to be a common misunderstanding, the vote tonight isn't to 'take no deal off the table', it's about whether we should leave with no deal *on 29 March *


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I like to know what you're saying.


I don't.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> May is voting for not against.


Looking at the detail killerb quoted, she may well be voting only for the meaningless nonsense of the main bit - parliament votes not to approve of bad things, ner. If she doesn't vote for either amendment, she's effectively abstaining.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> May is voting for not against.


Would be odd to vote against a motion tabled in her name.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

No Spelman amendment. turns the rest of today into meaninglessness. They'll just vote not to leave no deal on 29 March, but decide nothing else.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

Gove seems to be enjoying himself, especially with snide attacks towards SNP MPs, just got a mild ticking-off from the speaker over that.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 13, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> BBC had them split...


BBC said all of TIG voted against May's deal...


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> May is voting for not against.


I think part of what’s confusing is that the motion is itself strewn with a chain of double negatives.  And that makes talking about it hard without also piling up the syntactical arithmetic.

But, yes, May will be voting to rule out leaving without a deal on 29th March. (Here add all the caveats).


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> BBC said all of TIG voted against May's deal...


Possibly someone on air got it mixed up in the heat of the moment. But we’re all now agreed that the confusion probably arose because not all independent MPs are TIG.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Possibly someone on air got it mixed up in the heat of the moment. But we’re all now agreed that the confusion probably arose because not all independent MPs are TIG.


Calling your grouping 'the independent group' when non-group aligned independent MPs are listed as 'independent' guarantees mistakes like this happening.


----------



## andysays (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No Spelman amendment. turns the rest of today into meaninglessness. They'll just vote not to leave no deal on 29 March, but decide nothing else.


Were you expecting anything different?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

andysays said:


> Were you expecting anything different?


The Spelman amendment would have told us something about the balance of opinion in parliament.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> Calling your grouping 'the independent group' when non-group aligned independent MPs are listed as 'independent' guarantees mistakes like this happening.


Yep, some independent MPs are just that. Somewhat ironic that those others joining a proto-party should chose to title themselves in such oxymoronic manner.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The Spelman amendment would have told us something about the balance of opinion in parliament.



Yes and outed a load of cabinet ministers probably as well causing all sorts of problems for May.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 13, 2019)

Looking at twitter (ha!) it sounds like the spelman amendment has been picked - but may is whipping her MPs to vote against it?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Looking at twitter (ha!) it sounds like the spelman amendment has been picked - but may is whipping her MPs to vote against it?


BBC saying that it was picked but she has withdrawn it.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

The word revocation being bandied about quite a bit in the Commons debate this pm. A number of MPs making the point that it's the only way to ensure no 'No-Deal'.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> BBC saying that it was picked but she has withdrawn it.


Ah - i shouldn't trust twitter...


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> The word revocation being bandied about quite a bit in the Commons debate this pm. A number of MPs making the point that it's the only way to ensure no 'No-Deal'.


Presumably just the usual crowd though.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> Presumably just the usual crowd though.


Of course.

e2a: although Dunked-in Shit was trying to get Starmer to comment on the likelihood of labour supporting it.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

_the sun came up this morning_


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

If you ever wanted a confirmation of anarcho (or just common sense) criticisms of parliamentary-managerialist politics, yesterday, today and tomorrow will provide it.  Tonight, we've got politicians, literally, lining up to vote for and against something just because that's the next thing scheduled to do - quite possibly just a vote on not leaving without a deal in 2 weeks. Then tomorrow, something along the lines of asking the people who they went to separate from if they will let us remain married for an ill-defined period. And there's no clarity about any of those votes leading to anything, or indeed that there's a shared understanding amongst MPs about any of the consequences.

The amusing thing is they still haven't managed to sort out the 'indicative votes'. In other words they are so trapped in their votes, motions and whips that they can't actually just have the equivalent of a show of hands to *find out what MPs want to do. *2 fucking years on, they haven't managed to do something as basic as that: t*hey haven't managed to actually say what they collectively want*.


----------



## andysays (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yep, some independent MPs are just that. Somewhat ironic that those others joining a proto-party should chose to title themselves in such oxymoronic manner.


There was a news item a week ago about Chuka and his chums visiting the Electoral Commission to discuss becoming a fully-fledged political party. It includes the following


> Anyone can register a new political party for a small fee but there are rules about what it can be called - it can't sound too much like an existing party or be offensive, for example.



I wonder if they would actually be allowed to call themselves the Independent Party or similar


----------



## collectordave (Mar 13, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Still got nukes. Still got a chance to be a rogue state Maybe a raffish state.



I thought our nukes were actually american nukes! We just pay for them.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> _the sun came up this morning_


Maybe, but the fact that the ultimate choice between 'No-Deal' & revocation is being used (by both sides) to frame the debate about the next two weeks does seem to be a significant step from obsession about possible indicative votes. It does get to the crux of the matter.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

I remember when being an Independent just meant a Tory trying to weasel into a Labour seat.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> The amusing thing is they still haven't managed to sort out the 'indicative votes'. In other words they are so trapped in their votes, motions and whips that they can't actually just have the equivalent of a show of hands to *find out what MPs want to do. *2 fucking years on, they haven't managed to do something as basic as that: t*hey haven't managed to actually say what they collectively want*.


Seems to be some chat that Gove has hinted something like this is actually going to happen tomorrow. Won't hold my breath mind.


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2019)

dp


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

andysays said:


> There was a news item a week ago about Chuka and his chums visiting the Electoral Commission to discuss becoming a fully-fledged political party. It includes the following
> 
> 
> I wonder if they would actually be allowed to call themselves the Independent Party or similar


Prob not for this thread, but going by Umunna's recent 'manifesto' pamphlet launch it seemed to be badged as "Progressive Centre". I reckon that gives us some clues about what they might call themselves.


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2019)

andysays said:


> There was a news item a week ago about Chuka and his chums visiting the Electoral Commission to discuss becoming a fully-fledged political party. It includes the following
> 
> 
> I wonder if they would actually be allowed to call themselves the Independent Party or similar



If so, Independent Party would appear on ballot papers against their candidates. Given people standing who're not representing political parties are show as Independent on the ballot paper, that would surely be a recipe for further confusion... (I think they maybe got a bit stricter on this kind of thing anyway after the Literal/Liberal Democrat fiasco.)


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> Seems to be some chat that Gove has hinted something like this is actually going to happen tomorrow. Won't hold my breath mind.


Yeah, I saw that, in fact it was what ultimately prompted my rant. It's the notion that, to break the deadlock we could erm… _ask the MPs what they want! _ I seem to remember they almost did this after May's deal was booted out the first time, but never quite managed it.  When I have a row with my partner I'm quite good at picking holes in her position, but then she floors me by asking, 'but what would you do/what do you want'.  Basically, MPs are as useless as me.


----------



## andysays (Mar 13, 2019)

Sue said:


> If so, Independent Party would appear on ballot papers against their candidates. Given people standing who're not representing political parties are show as Independent on the ballot paper, that would surely be a recipe for further confusion... (I think they maybe got a bit stricter on this kind of thing anyway after the Literal/Liberal Democrat fiasco.)


I should probably have said 'I don't think they would be allowed to call themselves the Independent Party...'


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

Sue said:


> If so, Independent Party would appear on ballot papers against their candidates. Given people standing who're not representing political parties are show as Independent on the ballot paper, that would surely be a recipe for further confusion... (I think they maybe got a bit stricter on this kind of thing anyway after the Literal/Liberal Democrat fiasco.)


depends if someone registers 'the independent party', 'the independent group', etc first.


----------



## maomao (Mar 13, 2019)

Chukka's United National Tinge party.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

maomao said:


> Chukka's United National Tinge party.


imagine he'd only have the one k


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, I saw that, in fact it was what ultimately prompted my rant. It's the notion that, to break the deadlock we could erm… _ask the MPs what they want! _ I seem to remember they almost did this after May's deal was booted out the first time, but never quite managed it.  When I have a row with my partner I'm quite good at picking holes in her position, but then she floors me by asking, 'but what would you do/what do you want'.  Basically, MPs are as useless as me.



May (as ever) was the impediment to this happening though.  It was a common sense approach and quite a few MP's (even cabinet members) were calling for it.  May though only has one plan and it didn't involve this.

MP's wouldn't be able to do this without the government allowing it, well I suppose they could have hired out a function room but it wouldn't have meant much.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

The autonomous party.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> The autonomous party.


pro-business anti-worker labour-tinged socially awkward party


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> pro-business anti-worker labour-tinged socially awkward party



The shoe gazers


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> The shoe gazers


shamefaced opportunists


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 13, 2019)

Party colour: tingerine.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

Speaker now saying that Spelman can't withdraw her amendment. So fuck knows if it will be included.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Party colour: tingerine.


and their song, tingerine days


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

So...if I've got this right...tonight's motion, if passed, does not rule out a 'No-Deal' exit (merely on the 29th), the Spelman amendment that did rule out 'No-Deal' has been dropped and the ERG talk is of revocation.

Seems like the nutjobs' strategy is to frame any opposition to 'No-Deal' as an 'enemy of the people' position.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> May (as ever) was the impediment to this happening though.  It was a common sense approach and quite a few MP's (even cabinet members) were calling for it.  May though only has one plan and it didn't involve this.
> 
> MP's wouldn't be able to do this without the government allowing it, well I suppose they could have hired out a function room but it wouldn't have meant much.


I'm sure that's right, but I don't think it was just May. There's the notion that parliamentary business has to be managed by the governing party and when it comes to actual laws there's a process of the same people laying down motions which can only be amended or defeated. My objection to parliament is that it's part of the neoliberal British state. But it also reveals itself in this shitshow as wooden, unresponsive and everything but dynamic. But yes, May's defining characteristic in this has been to use that very inertia to keep herself in post and the show on the road. But as the road comes to an end, neither she nor parliament have anything else in their locker.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 13, 2019)

I keep reading conflicting reports - is the Spelman amendment going ahead or not?! I want to see some resignations!


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> I keep reading conflicting reports - is the Spelman amendment going ahead or not?! I want to see some resignations!



Don’t we all, but like Brexit it doesn’t seem likely.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

I'm sure we are close to the point where tonight someone will shout: '_we've won, we've won the vote, brilliant! Oh, hang on, what was the vote about?'_


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'm sure we are close to the point where tonight someone will shout: '_we've won, we've won the vote, brilliant! Oh, hang on, what was the vote about?'_


Everything is about keeping the tory party from splitting.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 13, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> I keep reading conflicting reports - is the Spelman amendment going ahead or not?! I want to see some resignations!



Apparently you can't pull an amendment before it has been moved.  So it will presumably be pulled as soon as it's moved, unless they find someone else to move it if that is possible.  Anyway, I wouldn't expect it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Apparently you can't pull an amendment before it has been moved. So it will presumably be pulled as soon as it's moved, unless they find someone else to move it if that is possible.



 (at them as much as anything else)


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 13, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Apparently you can't pull an amendment before it has been moved.  So it will presumably be pulled as soon as it's moved, unless they find someone else to move it if that is possible.  Anyway, I wouldn't expect it.



Apparently any of the signatories can move it


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> I keep reading conflicting reports - is the Spelman amendment going ahead or not?! I want to see some resignations!


It's rubbish. Without that amendment today is a total waste of time. Speaker seemed to imply that one of the other signatories to it could still insist on putting it - and that because there were other signatories Spelman herself did not have the power to withdraw it. Seems fair enough to me as there will have been other amendmends that weren't chosen because hers was - could even have been a spoiling tactic from the govt to get someone to table an amendment only to withdraw it. 

Fuck knows.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Everything is about keeping the tory party from splitting.


not everything.

some of it is positioning for a leadership bid after may finally leaves the stage.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Without that amendment today is a total waste of time.


sorry to have to break this to you...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

andysays said:


> There was a news item a week ago about Chuka and his chums visiting the Electoral Commission to discuss becoming a fully-fledged political party. It includes the following
> 
> I wonder if they would actually be allowed to call themselves the Independent Party or similar



Or, the UK Independent Party?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> sorry to have to break this to you...


It's kept me half-stimulated while doing a really boring piece of work, so it had that purpose. But I'm with fpg. I wanted someone from the govt to finally out themselves.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Apparently any of the signatories can move it



Yep.



> LONDON (Reuters) - British Conservative lawmaker Caroline Spelman, who had proposed a vote in parliament to rule out a no-deal Brexit in any scenario, said on Wednesday she no longer backed her own amendment.
> 
> However, speaker John Bercow said the amendment could yet be voted on if one of its other signatories chose to press ahead with it when voting starts in parliament at around 1900 GMT.
> 
> ...



UK lawmaker Spelman says no longer wants vote on her 'no deal' Brexit proposal | Reuters


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

I wish they wouldn't call them 'lawmakers'


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> I wish they wouldn't call them 'lawmakers'



It gives them the impression they know what they are doing


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

A bit of light amusement...



> Dodging the question, Mr Gove replied: "She is a distinguished criminal barrister and now I know what it's like to be cross-examined by her but I also know why barristers are paid by the hour."
> Ms Soubry retorted that as a criminal barrister, she did not charge by the hour - and raising her voice towards Mr Gove, a former Justice Secretary, said she had often worked pro-bono "because of his cuts" to legal aid.
> *Ms Soubry voted in favour of restricting access to legal aid several times between 2011 and 2014.*
> Plan to permanently stop no-deal Brexit scrapped as Tories told to vote it down


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's kept me half-stimulated while doing a really boring piece of work, so it had that purpose. But I'm with fpg. I wanted someone from the govt to finally out themselves.



independent reporting it might be going ahead..

Fury after Theresa May orders MPs to vote against motion that clearly rules out no-deal Brexit - follow live


----------



## steveo87 (Mar 13, 2019)

My one solace is that, when on 1st April, when he realises that the UK is STILL full of foreigners, and the EU really isn't that arsed that we've left, Nigel Farrage will walk calmly to the centre of Trafalgar Square, right next to lion number three, and shoot himself.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 13, 2019)

if it does go ahead i can't imagine it will pass because most of them are spineless... but i would love to see a few more wheels fall off the government. Just one or two resignations will make me smirk. C'mon Amber, do the right thing!


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> if it does go ahead i can't imagine it will pass because most of them are spineless... but i would love to see a few more wheels fall off the government. Just one or two resignations will make me smirk. C'mon Amber, do the right thing!



Don’t be a Amber Gambler!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2019)

One thing I hadn't realised before today, but Starmer was explicit about it - it is now official Labour policy to call for a second ref. I'd missed that switch, but as I say, Starmer was very clear.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> C'mon Amber, do the right thing!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One thing I hadn't realised before today, but Starmer was explicit about it - it is now official Labour policy to call for a second ref. I'd missed that switch, but as I say, Starmer was very clear.



Only if they can't get a GE.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Only if they can't get a GE.



Which they will. Eventually. So not really. Daft policy.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 13, 2019)

steveo87 said:


> My one solace is that, when on 1st April, when he realises that the UK is STILL full of foreigners, and the EU really isn't that arsed that we've left, Nigel Farrage will walk calmly to the centre of Trafalgar Square, right next to lion number three, and shoot himself.



He doesn’t give a shit about that.  I don’t think he’s even a racist.  It’s just that racists are useful to him.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> A bit of light amusement...


Soubry trying to reinvent herself as “not Tory scum” is one of the most offensive things about this whole business.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 13, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Soubry trying to reinvent herself as “not Tory scum” is one of the most offensive things about this whole business.



Quite enjoying her giving Andrew Bridgen a right shoeing at the moment though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Soubry trying to reinvent herself as “not Tory scum” is one of the most offensive things about this whole business.


She is "not tory" scum, a different beast from your common or garden tory scum, but scum nonetheless


----------



## Poi E (Mar 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Or, the UK Independent Party?



British Liberals Independence Party.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

steveo87 said:


> My one solace is that, when on 1st April, when he realises that the UK is STILL full of foreigners, and the EU really isn't that arsed that we've left, Nigel Farrage will walk calmly to the centre of Trafalgar Square, right next to lion number three, and shoot himself.


What's wrong with march 30 or 31? if he does it on 1/4 everyone will think it's an April fools


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

Poi E said:


> British Liberals Independence Party.



Social Conservative Anti Brexit Society.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> If I was a betting man, which I am, I’d risk a flutter on “The Progressive Party”.


It’s not a funny acronym, but I’d still bet on this.


----------



## Supine (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One thing I hadn't realised before today, but Starmer was explicit about it - it is now official Labour policy to call for a second ref. I'd missed that switch, but as I say, Starmer was very clear.



Although corbyn didn't even mention it in his response to last night's vote. Whatever they agreed at conference is a sham. Corbyn will just keep banging on about an election even though there is a good chance he'd lose it.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 13, 2019)

Oh good, BBC Parliament has their own commentary tonight again - constitutional law type from the Hansard Society. May be preferable to the main channel commentaries.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

It'll be interesting to see the outcome of this vote on the Spelman amendment.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

Spelman amendment passed by 312 - 308, government defeated yet again.


----------



## gosub (Mar 13, 2019)

Majority of 4 rejecting no deal.... So what happens 'squatters rights'


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

Woah, close.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 13, 2019)

I'm fucking confused. Are we leaving the EU or not?


----------



## andysays (Mar 13, 2019)

From the BBC's newsfeed


> BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg says MPs are voting on "what they do not want to do". She says the "idea is" that MPs will express a "strong view" that they do not want to leave the EU without a deal. "It's not binding, it's not a concrete guarantee," she says. *They are expressing their will, she adds, "but that doesn't change the law"*.





> The BBC's Europe editor, Katya Adler, says "hearts really are hardening" in Europe, but the Commission is more positive about an extension to Article 50 than the individual member states themselves. She says that the way out of the impasse must come from the UK, the EU is saying. There is also concern that Brexit could "overshadow" upcoming European elections. All 27 EU countries have to agree to an extension, she adds.


----------



## gosub (Mar 13, 2019)

Argonia said:


> I'm fucking confused. Are we leaving the EU or not?


Only on weekends


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

Argonia said:


> I'm fucking confused. Are we leaving the EU or not?



I would refer you to the first reply on this thread.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 13, 2019)

*sigh*

Resignations?


----------



## Gerry1time (Mar 13, 2019)

So the Spelman amendment passed, meaning the other no deal vote, the one everyone was going to vote for, Tories included, won’t now get voted on. Have labour accidentally been very clever by making a whole load of Tory mps who were against no deal accidentally go on record as voting against an amendment that was against no deal?

ETA: also shows the government’s whipping operation is now basically toothless. But then that doesn’t seem to bring governments down any more.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> So the Spelman amendment passed, meaning the other no deal vote, the one everyone was going to vote for, Tories included, won’t now get voted on. Have labour accidentally been very clever by making a whole load of Tory mps who were against no deal accidentally go on record as voting against an amendment that was against no deal?


why do you think it's an accident?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One thing I hadn't realised before today, but Starmer was explicit about it - it is now official Labour policy to call for a second ref. I'd missed that switch, but as I say, Starmer was very clear.


It has been since last year, after all other options are exhausted - Corbyn mentions it a lot despite all the people on twitter saying he doesn’t.


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2019)

Cripes - passed by only four votes?  It's still "not binding" so fuck knows what May and co will do now, although it means there is more of an imperative to come up with "something" that prevents the UK leaving with No Deal on 29th March.  That will still happen if they don't stop playing tiddlywinks.


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2019)

CRI said:


> Cripes - passed by only four votes?  It's still "not binding" so fuck knows what May and co will do now, although it means there is more of an imperative to come up with "something" that prevents the UK leaving with No Deal on 29th March.  That will still happen if they don't stop playing tiddlywinks.



The amendment passed by four votes. Not the main no deal vote...


----------



## Supine (Mar 13, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It has been since last year, after all other options are exhausted - Corbyn mentions it a lot despite all the people on twitter saying he doesn’t.



Some of us are wondering if he'll ever decide other options are exhausted


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 13, 2019)

No you're not you just want the UK to remain in the EU by whatever means. Don't pretend you were ever interested in anything else. 


Guardian feed reporting that Gov now whipping against the vote


----------



## tommers (Mar 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Guardian feed reporting that Gov now whipping against the vote


This is fucking hilarious. In a "we're all so fucked" kind of way.


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> No you're not you just want the UK to remain in the EU by whatever means.
> 
> 
> Guardian feed reporting that Gov now whipping against the vote



Whipping... against their own motion... Smooth.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 13, 2019)

tommers said:


> This is fucking hilarious. In a "we're all so fucked" kind of way.


This. A million times this


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

tommers said:


> This is fucking hilarious. In a "we're all so fucked" kind of way.


Drowning, not waving territory


----------



## steveo87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> What's wrong with march 30 or 31? if he does it on 1/4 everyone will think it's an April fools


What I've done there is forget March isn't February.....


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

So, the government is now against its own motion, because of the Spelman amendment which, Spelman, a Tory, tried to withdraw, but couldn't. - LOL.


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2019)

Graun is quoting tweet <re RS's post about whip> from Nicholas Watt:

"Govt now facing ministerial resignation alert. Govt planning to whip against their no deal motion because it has now been amended to rule out no deal in all circumstances. If govt whips against that ministers say they will resign"


----------



## Gerry1time (Mar 13, 2019)

Thank fuck the malthouse nonsense got voted down so comprehensively.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

Cid said:


> Graun is quoting tweet from Nicholas Watt:
> 
> "Govt now facing ministerial resignation alert. Govt planning to whip against their no deal motion because it has now been amended to rule out no deal in all circumstances. If govt whips against that ministers say they will resign"


La Rudd to exit stage left?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 13, 2019)

This. Is. Mental.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

What is a hand cart?  Is it basically a wheelbarrow?


----------



## Supine (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> La Rudd to exit stage left?



Hope she falls off it


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> What is a hand cart?  Is it basically a wheelbarrow?


Not sure you can go to hell in a wheelbarrow...


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> What is a hand cart?  Is it basically a wheelbarrow?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> What is a hand cart?  Is it basically a wheelbarrow?


That only goes 'downhill'


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> What is a hand cart?  Is it basically a wheelbarrow?



Yeah, but more cart-like with two wheels


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

Sue said:


> Not sure you can go to hell in a wheelbarrow...


That's why I ask. I'm curious about the etiquette


----------



## Poot (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> That only goes 'downhill'


 Without a paddle.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 13, 2019)

Sue said:


> Not sure you can go to hell in a wheelbarrow...


on a road paved with good intentions maybe.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Mar 13, 2019)

Not the first time this has happened at Maidenhead's Tory Club but I may go there tomorrow and amend it with a face palm 

'Scum' graffiti painted across Conservative club


----------



## andysays (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> That's why I ask. I'm curious about the etiquette


Etiquette very important at a time like this


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

Cid said:


>


Huh.  You can't really be "in" that, though.  More "on".


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2019)

QueenOfGoths said:


> *Not the first time this has happened at Maidenhead's Tory Club* but I may go there tomorrow and amend it with a face palm
> 
> 'Scum' graffiti painted across Conservative club


You seem very well informed. Just saying.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

andysays said:


> Etiquette very important at a time like this


It's all we've got left.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Huh.  You can't really be "in" that, though.  More "on".



Important detail comrade.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 13, 2019)

What's going on?


----------



## andysays (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It's all we've got left.


No, after you, I insist


----------



## binka (Mar 13, 2019)

Some ministers abstaining apparently


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> What's going on?


That's the headline, yes.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Mar 13, 2019)

Sue said:


> You seem very well informed. Just saying.


￼￼  You didn't see me right


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

binka said:


> Some ministers abstaining apparently


Craven


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> What's going on?


The government has a three line whip against its own motion, as it's been amended by the earlier motion. Several members of the cabinet appear to have abstained, and will likely have to resign.


----------



## gosub (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> The government has a three line whip against its own motion, as it's been amended by the earlier motion. Several members of the cabinet appear to have abstained, and will likely have to resign.


Strong and stable


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 13, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> What's going on?


Just imagine a picture of Westminster, on fire, with “Yakety Sax” playing in the background.


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2019)

Cid said:


> The amendment passed by four votes. Not the main no deal vote...


Yes, I know.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

gosub said:


> Strong and stable


Well, it does have two wheels.  But then I presume cornering is harder.  It's a pay-off between mobility and stability.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 13, 2019)

gosub said:


> Strong and stable


Or chaos with Ed Miliband.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Craven


Eh?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 13, 2019)

> Six Cabinet ministers - Gavin Williamson, Jeremy Hunt, Penny Mordaunt, Andrea Leadsom, Sajid Javid, Alun Cairns - voted for Malthouse.


Six MPs lining up their leadership challenges


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2019)

The whole Tinge thing has been a sore disappointment but this all looks quite promising.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

Main vote - 321 - 278. 

Oops.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 13, 2019)

Passed by a bigger margin than the amendment. 

Must have been quite few Tory abstainers/rebels


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Six MPs lining up their leadership challenges


I don't think it'll be any of those lightweights


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 13, 2019)

Christ she's like the worst Terminator. When do you think she'll bring her deal back again


----------



## YouSir (Mar 13, 2019)

In North America at the moment, nobody understands Brexit at all but a fair few seem vaguely in favour for confused reasons. The rest take the piss until you say 'Trump'.

Will the country still be there when I head back? If I'm going to end up stateless I don't want it to be in the US.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

This is fucking chaos.


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2019)

321-278


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2019)

Not sure how they could have fucked that up more...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

YouSir said:


> In North America at the moment, nobody understands Brexit at all but a fair few seem vaguely in favour for confused reasons. The rest take the piss until you say 'Trump'.
> 
> Will the country still be there when I head back? If I'm going to end up stateless I don't want it to be in the US.


Stateless in Seattle


----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> This is fucking chaos.



Now we just need a few defections to the Tingers/resignations. I reckon Alun Cairns (Secretary of State for Wales allegedly).


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

So, how many ministers are going to resign or get sacked?

One has just gone.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 13, 2019)

I can see a GE coming.

Over to you, Brenda...


----------



## Cid (Mar 13, 2019)

Musical interlude.


----------



## gosub (Mar 13, 2019)




----------



## Sue (Mar 13, 2019)

An English* friend in France is messaging me asking what's happening. I'm genuinely going 'fuck up, complete chaos, absolutely no idea'.

*Currently waiting for his French passport.


----------



## YouSir (Mar 13, 2019)

gosub said:


>




Most toxic politically related song since Horst Wessel?


----------



## YouSir (Mar 13, 2019)

YouSir said:


> Most toxic politically related song since Horst Wessel?



Or possibly Billy Bragg's Red Flag.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 13, 2019)

May going to go for third time lucky


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2019)

Sue said:


> An English* friend in France is messaging me asking what's happening. I'm genuinely going 'fuck up, complete chaos, absolutely no idea'.
> 
> *Currently waiting for his French passport.


A load of people have voted that it's not going to rain again _ever_.  But it's non-binding.


----------



## gosub (Mar 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> May going to go for third time lucky


Won't that demean the previous 2 meaningful votes


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

gosub said:


> Won't that demean the previous 2 meaningful votes


They're not meaningful if they don't go may's way


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

"'Meaning_ful'_?  I'm sorry, I meant meaning_less_".


----------



## gosub (Mar 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> A load of people have voted that it's not going to rain again _ever_.  But it's non-binding.


See that just shows how much British politics has been degraded. In 76 it rained within days of the appointment of a Minister for Drought


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

I find it mildly amusing that Cameron started this process by promising a referendum. Purely to stop the Tory party infighting and threats of splits.
Kismet?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 13, 2019)

BBC saying that they think Rudd, Gauke and Mundell abstained on the substantive motion


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 13, 2019)

It sounds like the government's motion for an extension makes it contingent on passing her deal by next week. So doesn't that mean she's already putting her deal up for another vote?


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I can see a GE coming.
> 
> Over to you, Brenda...


This woman speaks for us all


----------



## editor (Mar 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I find it mildly amusing that Cameron started this process by promising a referendum. Purely to stop the Tory party infighting and threats of splits.
> Kismet?


That cunt should be personally charged for all the costs of this ongoing circus.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> This woman speaks for us all


She doesn't speak for me, I love an election.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> She doesn't speak for me, I love an election.


Likewise.

Amber Rudd, David Gauke, Greg Clark, David Mundell and Claire Perry given as Cabinet members that abstained.


----------



## Poot (Mar 13, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> This woman speaks for us all


She doesn't speak for Kuennsberg.


----------



## mx wcfc (Mar 13, 2019)




----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2019)

currently on the BBC website

 



I don't think they quite mean that


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Likewise.
> 
> Amber Rudd, David Gauke, Greg Clark, David Mundell and Claire Perry given as Cabinet members that abstained.


Surprise, surprise May not going to ask for resignations



> Ministers who voted against the whip tonight will be expected to resign, those who abstain *will not*.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

I've been away for a couple of hours and just read a report on what they've done tonight and I, genuinely, can't understand it. What the actual fucking fuck.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Surprise, surprise May not going to ask for resignations


Weak and wobbly


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I've been away for a couple of hours and just read a report on what they've done tonight and I, genuinely, can't understand it. What the actual fucking fuck.


Could you share it, I’ve been asleep. 

Or summarise. There’s 2 pages of what the fuck so it sounds juicy


----------



## Fez909 (Mar 13, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Could you share it, I’ve been asleep.
> 
> Or summarise. There’s 2 pages of what the fuck so it sounds juicy


This is the best layman's summary I've found so far


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 13, 2019)

Some of the ERG starting to wobble


----------



## Argonia (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I've been away for a couple of hours and just read a report on what they've done tonight and I, genuinely, can't understand it. What the actual fucking fuck.



This is the first thing I've heard tonight that I can actually understand


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

My head simply won't absorb where the fuck we are up to now, but presumably May will have another go at getting her shitpile through. That brings Bercow centre stage though as he was musing today about having a decision to make on whether to allow the same resolution to be put twice. He's obviously up for it as he's fucked May over a couple of times, but I doubt he's got the balls to do that. Has he?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Surprise, surprise May not going to ask for resignations



Resignation doesn't really seem to be her thing does it.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

So, let's reduce this to something that simpletons like me can understand: which newspaper will be most apoplectic after tonight?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> My head simply won't absorb where the fuck we are up to now, but presumably May will have another go at getting her shitpile through. That brings Bercow centre stage though as he was musing today about having a decision to make on whether to allow the same resolution to be put twice. He's obviously up for it as he's fucked May over a couple of times, but I doubt he's got the balls to do that. Has he?



Maybe she'll propose a resolution rejecting her own deal. On her current form that's probably its best chance.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, let's reduce this to something that simpletons like me can understand: which newspaper will be most apoplectic after tonight?


The Mail. It's always the Mail.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

QueenOfGoths said:


> The Mail. It's always the Mail.


The Express:

*'DID DIANA HAVE TO DIE FOR THIS?'*


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 13, 2019)

QueenOfGoths said:


> The Mail. It's always the Mail.


Nah Express. Mail has wound back to May loyalism.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Eh?



Abstaining, rather than vote against what they believe to be disastrous for the country they presume to govern.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Abstaining, rather than vote against what they believe to be disastrous for the country they presume to govern.


It was a pun. Sorry.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It was a pun. Sorry.




Been down 'spoons!


----------



## bemused (Mar 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Some of the ERG starting to wobble




I can't see her deal ever getting through even if all the ERG lined up behind it. At this point, if you are a loyal Tory MP who wants a soft Brexit why would lend your vote to that deal just being the ERG who've screwed your government into the dirt are shitting it that their WTO utopia is thing of the past.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

So, is May's gambit now reduced to 'vote for Shitpile 3 or I'll ask Jean Claude to make us stay in another year'? Is that where we are up to?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 13, 2019)

May was a Remainer, right? Has she in fact played a blinder?

Not the hero we deserve, but the hero we need?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

By the way, when does Corbyn makes his ever so cunning lightining strike (inside or outside the house)? To be honest, there's more chance of Theresa Fucking May getting something through before he does that.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2019)

there was a report somewhere this afternoon (which I now can't find) suggesting that there's some obscure parliamentary rule that government can't just bring back the same thing for another vote (yesterday was in theory at least deal mk 2) so they can't just have a repeat of the vote on the deal in the hope of getting it through at third attempt...


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> there was a report somewhere this afternoon (which I now can't find) suggesting that there's some obscure parliamentary rule that government can't just bring back the same thing for another vote (yesterday was in theory at least deal mk 2) so they can't just have a repeat of the vote on the deal in the hope of getting it through at third attempt...


a 'self plagiarism' rule.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 13, 2019)

bemused said:


> I can't see her deal ever getting through even if all the ERG lined up behind it. At this point, if you are a loyal Tory MP who wants a soft Brexit why would lend your vote to that deal just being the ERG who've screwed your government into the dirt are shitting it that their WTO utopia is thing of the past.


Lack of other options, party loyalty, just wanting this to be over, etc. The "WTO utopia" isn't "a thing of the past" the motion passed tonight had no legal force.



Puddy_Tat said:


> there was a report somewhere this afternoon (which I now can't find) suggesting that there's some obscure parliamentary rule that government can't just bring back the same thing for another vote (yesterday was in theory at least deal mk 2) so they can't just have a repeat of the vote on the deal in the hope of getting it through at third attempt...


First the government argue that yesterday's vote wasn't the same as January's as the deal had changed. Second it's at the discretion of the Speaker. I don't see Bercow refusing another vote on May's deal under the current circumstance. And if he did, they'd make just enough (meaningless) changes to make sure it was a "new" matter being voted on.


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> By the way, when does Corbyn makes his ever so cunning lightining strike (inside or outside the house)? To be honest, there's more chance of Theresa Fucking May getting something through before he does that.



In Parliament he said he will be holding cross party meetings to try to bring something to the house. Possibly Labour will try to get an indicative vote for a Norway plus type deal, with an extension to negotiate?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Lack of other options, party loyalty, just wanting this to be over, etc. The "WTO utopia" isn't "a thing of the past" the motion passed tonight had no legal force.


My line has always been that her deal would get through after a bit of revolting and re-voting, moral blackmail and the rest. Didn't quite anticipate _this much_ fuckup-ery and we are still not there yet (they've got to get 150 down to -1 of course). But to be honest, whilst it's not the only thing that can happen - FUCKING HELL, _ANYTHING_ CAN HAPPEN - it really is the most likely scenario. Trouble is running the clock down so far and creating all this madness, she runs it down to the wire. And both main parties are left smelly broken things afterwards. Good.

To be honest though, I would really like to see a Euro election this year.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 13, 2019)

It's like watching a Marx Brothers film, after a bit you give over trying to follow the plot and just watch for the laughs


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

Can't stand Paxman, but I'd like to see him doing Newsnight tonight.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

And of course we have that nob Farage stating he has been preparing for the Euro parliamentary elections since July last year.
Because he knew the career politicians would sabotage the whole thing and betray the British people.


----------



## happie chappie (Mar 13, 2019)

Please help me - I'm absolutely addicted to this shitfest.

Can't stop watching it. Haven't left the house for three days. Just having a short piss break, a bite to eat and gearing myself up for Newsnight and then Sky News.

Up at 6am tomorrow for the Today programme.

I'm not sure how much more of this I can take


----------



## pinkmonkey (Mar 13, 2019)




----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 13, 2019)

Just read the summary out in the staff room which was met with wild confusion.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 13, 2019)

Is it unprecedented** in British history for the _Chancellor's Spring Budget statement_ to be so *completely* overshadowed??  

**outside of wartime, anyway -- obligatory caveat etc.

But here's what Aditya Chatrabortty had to say about that! Damn right .....


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Can't stand Paxman, but I'd like to see him doing Newsnight tonight.



Paul (Chuckle) Elliot is available and probably more appropriate.


----------



## bemused (Mar 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Lack of other options, party loyalty, just wanting this to be over, etc. The "WTO utopia" isn't "a thing of the past" the motion passed tonight had no legal force.



Until Thursday. They only need a SI to change the Withdrawal Act.


----------



## bemused (Mar 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> And of course we have that nob Farage stating he has been preparing for the Euro parliamentary elections since July last year.
> Because he knew the career politicians would sabotage the whole thing and betray the British people.



The shit fight between him and UKIP during an election would be a hoot.


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 13, 2019)

So, is the answer (currently) to the question "is brexit going to happen and if so when?"
"Don't know and don't know"?

Excuse my ignorance, I'm on holiday outside the EU


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

Armando Iannucci was spot on when he said ‘politics are now beyond satire’.


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 13, 2019)

the fun part about this is some leading brexiters coming out and saying the votes tonight  is non binding

so what like the referendum


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

twentythreedom said:


> I'm on holiday outside the EU


 Emergency Question: _what's it like out there? _


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 13, 2019)

This is fucking hilarious


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Emergency Question: _what's it like out there? _


----------



## Cloo (Mar 13, 2019)

Would like Remainers to club together and get the thing cancelled, but I just can't believe it will happen because no one Has A Plan. I actually think the government cancelling it would be less harmful than cancelling after a 2nd Referendum (assuming Remain wins, not guaranteed at all) as people expect to be betrayed by the gov and would in the main get over it, though it would energise the far Right, without doubt. But if *people* decided against it, that might actually do more harm to the fabric of our society. Such as it has a fucking fabric anymore.

I think some kind of extension and a cobbled together soft Brexit seems most likely to me - the one thing that is clear is that the vast majority MPs _really _want to avoid No Deal.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> This is fucking hilarious



It’s that good I’m going to watch the news, again and record it.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

I seem to remember MPs were a bit more creative and decisive when it came to putting in claims for bath plugs and flipping their mortgages.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

Theresa May's Playbook


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, let's reduce this to something that simpletons like me can understand: which newspaper will be most apoplectic after tonight?



I stay away from white van drivers in the morning

going to be some very annoyed Sun readers when they catch up


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 13, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> the fun part about this is some leading brexiters coming out and saying the votes tonight  is non binding
> 
> so what like the referendum



Someone should also tell May that you can't keep calling for votes on something if you didn't like the result you got the first couple of times.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 13, 2019)

Tonight the clown car drove through a large sheet of glass being carried across the road by two men in overalls, the driver was hit in the face by the end of a ladder, and then it plummeted down a very large open manhole.  However, the engine still seems to be spluttering away, sounding increasingly croaky.


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 13, 2019)

that was 2 years ago


where 2 people tried to lose a the EU ref to promote their political careers

and caused this mess


----------



## binka (Mar 13, 2019)

So May wants to bring it back for a third vote by 20th march but Bercow could rule that out of order

_"A motion or an amendment which is the same, in substance, as a question which has been decided during a session may not be brought forward again during that same session."

A decision on whether “verbal alterations” amount to real changes are “a matter for the judgment of the chair”_


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 13, 2019)

jesus fuck - what a shit show. Complete political chaos, nobody know whats going to happen, economy grinding to a halt - all the result of 48/52 referendum result that came about cos david cameron wanted to knock a few percentage points off the UKIP vote share. 

More tories to resign the whip? May is not going to shift on anything - she's fucking insane.


----------



## free spirit (Mar 13, 2019)

has anyone posted up that Bercow is likely to have to rule on whether the government is actually allowed to hold another vote on the exact same deal or not.

Parliamentary rules don't allow 2 votes on essentially the same motion in the same parliamentary session, and it's basically Bercow's discretion to decide if anything's different enough about any new motion to allow it to be voted on again.


----------



## Ted Striker (Mar 13, 2019)

The Sun front page leading with an update on Maddie McCann tomorrow


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2019)

Jesus I thought you were making a shit joke about the Express and got the paper wrong.


----------



## tonysingh (Mar 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> The Sun front page leading with an update on Maddie McCann tomorrow



They're blaming her for this whole mess? Seems harsh.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

free spirit said:


> has anyone posted up that Bercow is likely to have to rule on whether the government is actually allowed to hold another vote on the exact same deal or not.
> 
> Parliamentary rules don't allow 2 votes on essentially the same motion in the same parliamentary session, and it's basically Bercow's discretion to decide if anything's different enough about any new motion to allow it to be voted on again.


Yes. 

Ultimately I suspect the dup will be bribed on board in some way and that will speed up the number of erg-ers who seem to be shitting their pants tonight and talking about coming back into the fold. Whether that will get shitshow 3 through will of course be the centre of the whole thing. In some way, Bercow's ruling might be important in a related way. If they are forced to reformat shitshow 3 into shitsow 3 and a bit, that might do it. But if it looks yet more desperate it would fall. And _finally_, she would have to resign.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 13, 2019)

tonysingh said:


> They're blaming her for this whole mess? Seems harsh.


In many ways we are all sat in a tapas bar, looking nervously...


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 14, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> The Sun front page leading with an update on Maddie McCann tomorrow



The ‘Dead cat’ strategy of political reporting. Nothing to see here. Tasteful.

Funnier was the Express blaming it all on remainers in this morning’s edition, as though it wasn’t the hard Brexit no deal nutcases that were frustrating May’s plans.


----------



## Ted Striker (Mar 14, 2019)

Meltdown...





Meltdown...





Meltdown...





Erm...Maddie


----------



## collectordave (Mar 14, 2019)

AH!

About time the government respected the wishes of the people.

The majority in the referendum did not vote for whatever reasons.

Parliament has now voted:-

1. Do not leave with the deal.
2. Do not leave without a deal.
3. Do not stay in.

Good to see they are as confused as the majority.

Come back Guy Fawkes I know some places a rocket could go.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 14, 2019)

bemused said:


> Until Thursday. They only need a SI to change the Withdrawal Act.


The government has already signalled that it will only go for short extension. May's plan continues to be to wind the clock down.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 14, 2019)

The print's so small I can't read what the 'Brexit update' is - I think it might be "blah blah blah blah."


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 14, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> The Sun front page leading with an update on Maddie McCann tomorrow





killer b said:


> Jesus I thought you were making a shit joke about the Express and got the paper wrong.



Me too. 

Even when Ted posted the front page above, I thought that must be a piss-take, which actually it basically is, but it's also the genuine front page, un-fucking-believable.


----------



## MrCurry (Mar 14, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> May going to go for third time lucky



So with no deal off the table and brexiteers minds focussed on the potential for losing Brexit entirely, what chance that May’s deal will be passed next week and the A50 extension will be just a short one?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 14, 2019)

> However, discussions are taking place around a point that Jacob Rees-Mogg, the ERG chair, raised in the House of Commons before Tuesday’s vote, relating to “how article 62 of the Vienna convention could be used”.
> 
> Stephen Barclay, the Brexit secretary, replied that the UK would have the ability to terminate the withdrawal agreement “if the facts clearly warranted that there had been an unforeseen and fundamental change of circumstances affecting the essential basis of the treaty on which the United Kingdom’s consent had been given”.


ERG signals it could back May's Brexit deal if legal advice is clearer

Could this save May's deal?


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

No deal Brexit isn't off the table, so it doesn't really work as a threat to the ultras.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> ERG signals it could back May's Brexit deal if legal advice is clearer
> 
> Could this save May's deal?


The ERG doesn't seem to United on this - large numbers of them are still saying 'nah'.


----------



## andysays (Mar 14, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> View attachment 164397


Is Merson blaming Brexit?


----------



## kabbes (Mar 14, 2019)

How is Paul Merson still front page news?  Surely you have to be over 40 to even have a chance of knowing who he is?  It’s not like he was a Prime A footballer even when he was playing in the 90s.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

kabbes said:


> How is Paul Merson still front page news?  Surely you have to be over 40 to even have a chance of knowing who he is?  It’s not like he was a Prime A footballer even when he was playing in the 90s.


No-one under 40 reads a physical newspaper. I think the star has it's own peculiar ecosystem of interests too, he's probably been someone they regularly return to over the last 20 years.


----------



## binka (Mar 14, 2019)

kabbes said:


> How is Paul Merson still front page news?  Surely you have to be over 40 to even have a chance of knowing who he is?  It’s not like he was a Prime A footballer even when he was playing in the 90s.


He's a well known pundit even for fans too young to remember him as a player - he's on Soccer Saturday every week


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> No-one under 40 reads a physical newspaper. I think the star has it's own peculiar ecosystem of interests too, he's probably been someone they regularly return to over the last 20 years.


Loads of people under 40 read physical newspapers.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 14, 2019)

Ah, that explains that then!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> No-one under 40 reads a physical newspaper. I think the star has it's own peculiar ecosystem of interests too, he's probably been someone they regularly return to over the last 20 years.


Perhaps if you read the star front page you might see why they've returned to him


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

It’s the old ploy of we don’t like that news so we will go with populist guff.

ETA. Slight aside, I’ve noticed this morning that you can buy the Morning Star in Tesco but it’s not stocked in Sainsbury’s, piles of Mails and Express’ though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It’s the old ploy of we don’t like that news so we will go with populist guff.
> 
> ETA. Slight aside, I’ve noticed this morning that you can buy the Morning Star in Tesco but it’s not stocked in Sainsbury’s, piles of Mails and Express’ though.


I often see the morning star in Waitrose


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I often see the morning star in Waitrose



Petty bourgeois anarchists.


----------



## Ted Striker (Mar 14, 2019)

kabbes said:


> How is Paul Merson still front page news?  Surely you have to be over 40 to even have a chance of knowing who he is?  It’s not like he was a Prime A footballer even when he was playing in the 90s.



His autobiography is hands-down the best sports bio I've ever read.

You're right tho, of course. He never came on my radar as some that should be a 'threat'/piss me off (as a spurs fan). I think he did score some memorable goals. IIRC, he became more famous for a divorce deal that was a a beacon for incandescent men to get angsty about the unfairness of it all, and then descended into a soccer am/Chris Kamara era bantz king.

Tbh his career is of more interest as the last era before the watershed moment when football became serious (and, tbf, shit).

But I digress, Brexit...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Petty bourgeois anarchists.


when Sainsbury's goes soviet and stops stocking stuff they sell in Waitrose I buy in Waitrose


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> No-one under 40 reads a physical newspaper.



Whut now?


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

ok, very few people under 40 read a physical newspaper.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I often see the morning star in Waitrose


I often see the Morning Star in Waitrose,
Beside the European, its leaves blown wild,
Each page a hectic flutter, more loud than in repose,
As if on its cobweb corpse the Sun had smiled.
Oh had I seen it at the Miners' Welfare, long pulled down,
And there, in mem'ry, lively eyes, now weeping dim,
Had a known a full-branch'd oak from whose red leaves
Spilled dappled lights, and on each, bosses cast a frown;
But now the lost-light flickers, among the shoppers prim,
So far beneath their notice, whisper rustling sheaves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I often see the Morning Star in Waitrose,
> Beside the European, its leaves blown wild,
> Each page a hectic flutter, more loud than in repose,
> As if on its cobweb corpse the Sun had smiled.
> ...


Below the thunders of the high street,
Far, far beneath in the abysmal mall,
His ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep
The Waitrose sleepeth: faintest sunlights flee
About his shadowy sides; above him swell
Huge sponges of millennial growth and height;
And far away into the sickly light,
From many a wondrous grot and secret cell
Unnumbered and enormous polypi
Winnow with giant arms the slumbering green.
There hath he lain for ages, and will lie
Battening upon huge convenience stores in his sleep,
Until the latter fire shall heat the deep;
Then once by man and angels to be seen,
In roaring he shall rise and on the high street die.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Loads of people under 40 read physical newspapers.





killer b said:


> ok, very few people under 40 read a physical newspaper.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I often see the morning star in Waitrose



Essential Waitrose.


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 14, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Emergency Question: _what's it like out there? _


 24 degrees and a light breeze


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


>


Go away you weirdo.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It’s the old ploy of we don’t like that news so we will go with populist guff.
> 
> ETA. Slight aside, I’ve noticed this morning that you can buy the Morning Star in Tesco but it’s not stocked in Sainsbury’s, piles of Mails and Express’ though.


I used to buy the MS in my local Co-op in Durham. The first time I purchased a copy, the lad at the till told me I was the first person ever to buy one in that store. . .


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> Go away you weirdo.


it's strange how it's always people who spout shite who call other people weird.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> I used to buy the MS in my local Co-op in Durham. The first time I purchased a copy, the lad at the till told me I was the first person ever to buy one in that store. . .



I used to buy it regularly back in the seventies, but since then only occasionally. But if I buy one now, especially in local shops I am viewed as someone alien!


----------



## Patteran (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I used to buy it regularly back in the seventies, but since then only occasionally. But if I buy one now, especially in local shops I am viewed as someone alien!



Bought a copy a while back from the precinct newsagent where we usually buy sweets. 
Woman said 'Do you want a bag for that?'
I said 'No, I'm not ashamed of it'. 
She looked puzzled & said 'No, I meant because it's raining'.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Well last night was the best one yet.  More of this sort of thing, fuck HBO and Netflix.

Some of the interviews afterwards were TV gold, oh to be a fly on the walls which are behind closed doors.  Ministers who abstained are just styling it out, May is ignoring everything with the last bits of her authority shredded.

Thing is even with the ERG and DUP on board they couldn't kick back the amendment last night so do they have the number to win MV3 even with the them falling into line?  Not that they all will mind.  The phrase I'm hearing a lot of from hardline Brexiteers is 'even staying in the EU is better than this deal'.  Even Farage was spouting that last night.

Great days folks.  Grab some popcorn and a poison of your choice and settle in for the next installment tonight.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Grab some popcorn and a poison of your choice and settle in for the next installment tonight


I’m busy tonight. So if the thread can provide a clear and concise summary, that’d be great. Cheers.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Bought a copy a while back from the precinct newsagent where we usually buy sweets.
> Woman said 'Do you want a bag for that?'
> I said 'No, I'm not ashamed of it'.
> She looked puzzled & said 'No, I meant because it's raining'.




Not that we are justifying ourselves, more like expecting conflict.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m busy tonight. So if the thread can provide a clear and concise summary, that’d be great. Cheers.


may gets kicked from one end of the palace of westminster to the other, figuratively speaking


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Well last night was the best one yet.  More of this sort of thing, fuck HBO and Netflix.
> 
> Some of the interviews afterwards were TV gold, oh to be a fly on the walls which are behind closed doors.  Ministers who abstained are just styling it out, May is ignoring everything with the last bits of her authority shredded.
> 
> ...


which channel are you going with for the post-match analysis?


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> which channel are you going with for the post-match analysis?



Funny you should say that because I was enjoying myself so much last night I even forgot the Champions League was on.


----------



## andysays (Mar 14, 2019)

BBC reporting some MEP suggesting the EU will offer May a four year extension on A50...


----------



## Crispy (Mar 14, 2019)

four more years
FOUR MORE YEARS?!


----------



## andysays (Mar 14, 2019)

Apparently Tusk has also said he's open to a longish extension, so this new sitcom may have a few more seasons to run yet


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 14, 2019)

Good opportunity for May. She can negotiate it down to three years, eleven months and 27 days and return in triumph.


----------



## Sue (Mar 14, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m busy tonight. So if the thread can provide a clear and concise summary, that’d be great. Cheers.


I fear clear and concise anything at the moment is wishful thinking.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 14, 2019)

Crispy said:


> four more years
> FOUR MORE YEARS?!



"Third vote on May's deal delayed until March 2023."


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

4 more years.  I can't wait for meaningful vote 127 (the one where Cox's legal advice is written in pencil).


----------



## Sue (Mar 14, 2019)

andysays said:


> Apparently Tusk has also said he's open to a longish extension, so this new sitcom may have a few more seasons to run yet


And presumably that'd mean Euro elections in May.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 14, 2019)

Crispy said:


> four more years
> FOUR MORE YEARS?!


My brain hurts a lot
Four years
That's what we've got


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Sue said:


> And presumably that'd mean Euro elections in May.



Just keep the same MEP's there.  No one would vote anyway and I'm sure Farage wouldn't mind.


----------



## tommers (Mar 14, 2019)

It can be like the World Cup. Every four years they wheel out Boris to say something stupid and prop up May's husk on the front benches.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 14, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> My brain hurts a lot
> Four years
> That's what we've got



Four more years to talk Brexit
They're never going to deal with it
They'll sit on their flabby bums
All they'll do is flap their gums
End result: The same old shit


----------



## brogdale (Mar 14, 2019)

Sue said:


> And presumably that'd mean Euro elections in May.


Makes sense, from the perspective of the supra-state. Holds the 'logic' of democratic legitimacy...only allowing UK membership whilst still sending MEPs...whilst also giving May a big helping hand to bring her dissidents back into the fold for fear of years of prevarication/membership.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 14, 2019)

No deal has been done
The deadline recedes many years
This country is fucked


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

If nothing else this debacle has unified a devout Roman Catholic and a staunch Protestant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

tommers said:


> It can be like the World Cup. Every four years they wheel out Boris to say something stupid and prop up May's husk on the front benches.


an auto-icon, like jeremy bentham


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> an auto-icon, like jeremy bentham



Also works as inspiration for the Tinge brigade.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 14, 2019)

So we're just getting tuesday's vote again today?

These people, if they had any other job they'd all have been in the dole queue long since.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> So we're just getting tuesday's vote again today?
> 
> These people, if they had any other job they'd all have been in the dole queue long since.



Transferable skills would be useful if they had any?


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

We aren't getting tuesday's vote today, we're getting a vote on extending article 50 today.

Tuesday's vote is expected to be back next week...


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> So with no deal off the table and brexiteers minds focussed on the potential for losing Brexit entirely, what chance that May’s deal will be passed next week and the A50 extension will be just a short one?



Thing about losing Brexit entirely....The government has gone about Brexit like it did every other significant EUropean treaty...Party in power decideds what in is aiming for presents to Parliament as afait a compete ...


What we have had, in the last 2 years, is a worked example of why we had to leave.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> We aren't getting tuesday's vote today, we're getting a vote on extending article 50 today.
> 
> Tuesday's vote is expected to be back next week...



Oh right.

For a minute there I though something stupid was happening.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> So we're just getting tuesday's vote again today?
> 
> These people, if they had any other job they'd all have been in the dole queue long since.



No.  Today's vote is on whether the PM should ask for an extension.  It should be a formality* as only the real head bangers want a no deal exit on the 29th.

The meaningful vote (which as pointed out earlier in this thread appears only to be meaningful if May wins) will be next week, probably around the 20th.  Then we will have MV4, 5, 6 etc etc until someone puts her out of her misery.

*Then again last night was supposed to be a formality.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 14, 2019)

A proffered long delay would suit May as many ERG-ers would likely balk enough to back her in a third vote. The longer the delay in prospect the more chance of that happening I reckon.


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> No.  Today's vote is on whether the PM should ask for an extension.  It should be a formality* as only the real head bangers want a no deal exit on the 29th.
> 
> The meaningful vote (which as pointed out earlier in this thread appears only to be meaningful if May wins) will be next week, probably around the 20th.  Then we will have MV4, 5, 6 etc etc until someone puts her out of her misery.
> 
> *Then again last night was supposed to be a formality.


An old rule means Bercow could take drastic action on Brexit


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 14, 2019)

No MV4 /5 /6 I wouldn't have thought. May's last stand next week (which is not without it's chance of success), then into the long grass.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

gosub said:


> Thing about losing Brexit entirely....The government has gone about Brexit like it did every other significant EUropean treaty...Party in power decideds what in is aiming for presents to Parliament as afait a compete ...
> 
> 
> What we have had, in the last 2 years, is a worked example of why we had to leave.



As opposed to how the government presents domestic policies to Parliament?  We're only in this very situation now because we have a hung parliament.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> A proffered long delay would suit May as many ERG-ers would likely balk enough to back her in a third vote. The longer the delay in prospect the more chance of that happening I reckon.



Which is exactly why its being mentioned in Brussels.  They have tried to help May out where possible.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

gosub said:


> An old rule means Bercow could take drastic action on Brexit



Yes.  Its interesting but that puts a lot of shit onto Bercow.  I know he likes the limelight but crikey that would be a big call.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Which is exactly why its being mentioned in Brussels.  They have tried to help May out where possible.


Yep, I got that feeling too. Surely there's no genuine appetite for four years!


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Yes.  Its interesting but that puts a lot of shit onto Bercow.  I know he likes the limelight but crikey that would be a big call.



It would destroy his career in politics, the right wing media would slaughter him. Imo.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 14, 2019)

Fucking hell is Theresa trying to have a go with her deal for the third time? Flogging a dead horse.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It would destroy his career in politics, the right wing media would slaughter him. Imo.


How would it destroy his career in politics?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Fucking hell is Theresa trying to have a go with her deal for the third time? Flogging a dead horse.



She has previous I hear.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Fucking hell is Theresa trying to have a go with her deal for the third time? Flogging a dead horse.



Yup.  Scorched earth policy is how its being described.

She looks terrible at the moment, really ill.  I know she is under the weather and had very little sleep but what she is going through at the moment must be pretty bad.  Then again its nothing compared to what she has done to other people by being a senior cabinet minister in a government that inflicted policies which deliberately targeted the weakest and most vulnerable not to mention her horrific policies at the Home Office - Windrush etc.

More misery and suffering for May please.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> How would it destroy his career in politics?



The Tories would vilify him, ccause him to leave his position as an MP by whatever underhand methods they could use. His constituwould probably do likewise and he would end up like Michael Portillo or worse.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It would destroy his career in politics, the right wing media would slaughter him. Imo.



But a one-off moment of utter power and a place in the history books?

What ego could resist that?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It would destroy his career in politics, the right wing media would slaughter him. Imo.


This is Bercow's moment in the sun and he appears to me at least to be enjoying every second. Like May, once this brexit thing is done, he's basically done. But unlike May, that just gives him wider freedom of action.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> The Tories would vilify him, ccause him to leave his position as an MP by whatever underhand methods they could use. His constituwould probably do likewise and he would end up like Michael Portillo or worse.



Poor starving Michael Portillo? Oh noes.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is Bercow's moment in the sun and he appears to me at least to be enjoying every second. Like May, once this brexit thing is done, he's basically done. But unlike May, that just gives him wider freedom of action.



I don’t think he will do it because he won’t have to.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> The Tories would vilify him, ccause him to leave his position as an MP by whatever underhand methods they could use. His constituwould probably do likewise and he would end up like Michael Portillo or worse.


I think there's little he could do to make himself less popular with the conservative party tbh - if this is something that's possible, it's already on the cards.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Yup.  Scorched earth policy is how its being described.
> 
> She looks terrible at the moment, really ill.  I know she is under the weather and had very little sleep but what she is going through at the moment must be pretty bad.  Then again its nothing compared to what she has done to other people by being a senior cabinet minister in a government that inflicted policies which deliberately targeted the weakest and most vulnerable not to mention her horrific policies at the Home Office - Windrush etc.
> 
> More misery and suffering for May please.



It's kind of tragic really isn't it. That someone who has dedicated her career to achieving power apparently purely for the sake of it finally gets there, and discovers she has no actual ability to achieve anything at all, and is ultimately slowly crushed beneath the weight of it all.

Oh well.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

I know he is one, but I really don't think Bercow cares much about being vilified by the tories.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

chilango said:


> Poor starving Michael Portillo? Oh noes.


Yes, wearing red trousers.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Yes, wearing red trousers.



I bet Bercow already has several pairs.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

If Bercow stops a vote and Brexit gets kicked into the long grass for a couple of years or more then the title of 'the man who stole Brexit' will be hung around his neck.  He will be hated across the land.  I wouldn't do it if I was him.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I know he is one, but I really don't think Bercow cares much about being vilified by the tories.



True, they could vilify me if they wanted, me and almost a Lord Bercow don’t care.


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2019)

Depends what his wife tells him to do.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> If Bercow stops a vote and Brexit gets kicked into the long grass for a couple of years or more then the title of 'the man who stole Brexit' will be hung around his neck.  He will be hated across the land.


only by around 52% of the land.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

gosub said:


> Depends what his wife tells him to do.



This extends nationwide, to most households.


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> This extends nationwide, to most households.



Sally Bercow is not that powerful surely


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> only by around 52% of the land.


Actually, not even that - most brexit supporters think May's deal is a waste of time too. Why would they care if the speaker refused to allow another vote on it?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> If Bercow stops a vote and Brexit gets kicked into the long grass for a couple of years... He will be hated across the land.


Oh I dunno, about half the country would probably want to buy him a pint.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> Actually, not even that - most brexit supporters think May's deal is a waste of time too. Why would they care if the speaker refused to allow another vote on it?



The vox popping of people in the street is all about 'we voted, just get on with it'.  You hear it time and time again.  People don't care about Malthouse Compromises and Spelman Amendments.  It really is as simple as that and when the right wing pro Brexit press go to work it will be dead simple to just personify the failure of Brexit onto one person.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

But while the man on the street wants them to _just get on with it,_ they also don't want May's deal. The right wing press have been stanning for it for months and they don't want it.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Vox Pops are bullshit btw. Might as well pay attention to the people BTL on telegraph articles.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> Vox Pops are bullshit btw. Might as well pay attention to the people BTL on telegraph articles.


Yep. The normal schtick is to go somewhere that voted heavily to leave and find someone there who voted leave. Haven't heard too many vox pops coming from Lambeth or Hackney.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> But while the man on the street wants them to _just get on with it,_ they also don't want May's deal. The right wing press have been stanning for it for months and they don't want it.



The Telegraph and Times for sure but the Mail and Sun certainly seem to have fallen in line.



killer b said:


> Vox Pops are bullshit btw. Might as well pay attention to the people BTL on telegraph articles.



Fair enough.  I just get the impression that a lot of people don't know and don't care what May's deal is and just want _Brexit_.  As you say though, vox popping is a bit crap.  If they were to vox pop round my way they'd be interviewing the kind of oddball that hangs around outside Parliament wearing a EU flag suit.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Sadly if you did a vox pop around here, some would say they voted leave to stop Asians coming here!


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> The Telegraph and Times for sure but the Mail and Sun certainly seem to have fallen in line.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough.  I just get the impression that a lot of people don't know and don't care what May's deal is and just want _Brexit_.  As you say though, vox popping is a bit crap.  If they were to vox pop round my way they'd be interviewing the kind of oddball that hangs around outside Parliament wearing a EU flag suit.


currently on 22% support, and has been basically bumping along at that for months Deal, no deal or delay: what the public thinks | YouGov


----------



## Cid (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> If Bercow stops a vote and Brexit gets kicked into the long grass for a couple of years or more then the title of 'the man who stole Brexit' will be hung around his neck.  He will be hated across the land.  I wouldn't do it if I was him.



Not in any lasting way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Cid said:


> Not in any lasting way.


i understand that one nicholas clegg still finds himself hissed if he strays within half a mile of a college or university


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Sadly if you did a vox pop around here, some would say they voted leave to stop Asians coming here!


yeh that really worked


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh that really worked



Nothing like blind prejudice and xenophobia to keep the workers misdirected.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

4 more years? Fucking hell.

All I can say is that I'm glad this lot aren't running the country.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> The vox popping of people in the street is all about 'we voted, just get on with it'.  You hear it time and time again.  People don't care about Malthouse Compromises and Spelman Amendments.  It really is as simple as that and when the right wing pro Brexit press go to work it will be dead simple to just personify the failure of Brexit onto one person.



Bercow would be well looked after if he sank Brexit.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 14, 2019)

Bercow aside, if it werent for Gina Miller's case Mays deal would be going through to the next stage right now (in theory)...I imagine her death threats have slowed down now.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> Actually, not even that - most brexit supporters think May's deal is a waste of time too. Why would they care if the speaker refused to allow another vote on it?



Yeah I reckon Bercow could get away with it without any comeback. This is a deal Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Farage have all slated and the hard Brexiters have voted against. What would the line of attack be? "You ruined Brexit by not allowing a 3rd vote on something nobody wants"?


----------



## andysays (Mar 14, 2019)

Sue said:


> And presumably that'd mean Euro elections in May.


A four year extension would mean we'd definitely have another GE before we left...


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Yeah I reckon Bercow could get away with it without any comeback. This is a deal Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Farage have all slated and the hard Brexiters have voted against. What would the line of attack be? "You ruined Brexit by not allowing a 3rd vote on something nobody wants"?



Sun front page 'Most hated man in UK'?  Maybe Mail front page headline as 'The man who stole YOUR Brexit'?

I don't think he'd lose his Club privileges or anything but he would be an easier target for vilification outside of Westminster.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 14, 2019)

andysays said:


> A four year extension would mean we'd definitely have another GE before we left...


If that GE resulted in yet another hung parliament I think I'd die laughing


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Sun front page 'Most hated man in UK'?  Maybe Mail front page headline as 'The man who stole your Brexit'?
> 
> I don't think he'd lose his Club privileges or anything but he would be an easier target for vilification outside of Westminster.



I think a lot of people have worn themselves out chasing Soubry et al around and we are now close to the point where the public have been largely bored into submission. Even a lot of avid 'political' types I know point blank refuse to talk about it or even follow it. 

Was watching Liverpool in the pub last night, trying to describe the scale of the madness to a couple of 'political' mates and they didn't know what was happening or want to know.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> If that GE resulted in yet another hung parliament I think I'd die laughing



Better be a bit careful then cos it's odds on with some bookies: Next UK General Election Overall Majority | Politics


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Sun front page 'Most hated man in UK'?  Maybe Mail front page headline as 'The man who stole your Brexit'?
> 
> I don't think he'd lose his Club privileges or anything but he would be an easier target for vilification outside of Westminster.


If I did something that got me 'most hated man in UK' in the Sun but not elsewhere (as in I didn't kill a bunch of people), that would probably mean I'd done something worthwhile.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I think a lot of people have worn themselves out chasing Soubry et al around and we are now close to the point where the public have been largely bored into submission. Even a lot of avid 'political' types I know point blank refuse to talk about it or even follow it.
> 
> Was watching Liverpool in the pub last night, trying to describe the scale of the madness to a couple of 'political' mates and they didn't know what was happening or want to know.



Personally I'm loving it.  Not the whole Brexit thing because that is infuriating and scary in equal measure, I'm just loving watching the tories tearing each other and themselves to pieces.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Personally I'm loving it.  Not the whole Brexit thing because that is infuriating and scary in equal measure, I'm just loving watching the tories tearing each other and themselves to pieces.



In full view too!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Personally I'm loving it.  Not the whole Brexit thing because that is infuriating and scary in equal measure, I'm just loving watching the tories tearing each other and themselves to pieces.



I mean that is the whole Brexit thing, and I'm also loving it - but I want blood now. I want May to fuck off so they can tear themselves limb from limb in a gory Hunger Games-esque competition for Tory leader. It's been great and last night was funny but it's all dragging.


----------



## flypanam (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Personally I'm loving it.  Not the whole Brexit thing because that is infuriating and scary in equal measure, I'm just loving watching the tories tearing each other and themselves to pieces.


Yeah, and where else would you get this peice of drama, I mean when his felow UKIP mep punched him, the doctors must they must have checked to see if there was any brain left.
► VIDEO: British MEP denounces 'traitors' for denying terminally ill uncle Brexit


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> The Tories would vilify him, ccause him to leave his position as an MP by whatever underhand methods they could use. His constituwould probably do likewise and he would end up like Michael Portillo or worse.


I reckon he'd do a pretty entertaining job guiding us around the railways of the world.  I'd tune in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

flypanam said:


> Yeah, and where else would you get this peice of drama, I mean when his felow UKIP mep punched him, the doctors must they must have checked to see if there was any brain left.
> ► VIDEO: British MEP denounces 'traitors' for denying terminally ill uncle Brexit


what's particularly good about that is the way yer man says his uncle voted for brexit in 2014


----------



## flypanam (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> what's particularly good about that is the way yer man says his uncle voted for brexit in 2014



It's wicked to mock the afflicted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

flypanam said:


> It's wicked to mock the afflicted.


and he is afflicted in so many, many ways


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I mean that is the whole Brexit thing, and I'm also loving it - but I want blood now. I want May to fuck off so they can tear themselves limb from limb in a gory Hunger Games-esque competition for Tory leader. It's been great and last night was funny but it's all dragging.



She's going nowhere. No leadership contest is possible for 12 months. The Tories would want a larger poll lead before calling an election, plus there is the fixed term parliament act . Brexit will now be kicked down the road until it can be safely overturned by the remain section of the elites. Plus, and this is the key point, there is no other leader who could hold things together any better than May. In fact a leadership contest would fuel the war.  
You'll just have to make do with the slow motion car crash.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 14, 2019)

I reckon there’s a lot of politicians of all stripes who’d be happy for Bercow to be the ‘man who stole brexit’. It’d let a lot of other people of the hook for their ineptitude.


----------



## andysays (Mar 14, 2019)

Bercow has announced which amendments will be voted on tonight...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 14, 2019)

andysays said:


> Bercow has announced which amendments will be voted on tonight...


And they are...?


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 14, 2019)

Anyone else feel this could still end with a DUP/ERG mass crumble and a MV3 squeeze-thru win for May?  If so she will argue (with a certain amount of justification) that her strategy has, in the last, succeeded.

Knighted (or whatever the female equivalent is), anointed Iron Lady mk II, etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> She's going nowhere. No leadership contest is possible for 12 months. The Tories would want a larger poll lead before calling an election, plus there is the fixed term parliament act . Brexit will now be kicked down the road until it can be safely overturned by the remain section of the elites. Plus, and this is the key point, there is no other leader who could hold things together any better than May. In fact a leadership contest would fuel the war.
> You'll just have to make do with the slow motion car crash.


tbh the way things are you can't keep kicking things down the road. you can't have a great long extension to article 50 - not because of the european parliament, but because any continuation of this fuckwittery will see more economic uncertainty and decisions made by businesses which will see jobs disappear, whether they're taken overseas or the jobs simply no longer exist. i'm sure these points are  being made forcefully to the government from a range of sources. the denoument isn't going to be in six months or a year's time, it's going to have to be within the next 12 weeks and quite possibly before the end of the month. as things stand, and without a change in any of may's red lines, all there is is no deal or no brexit. and i can't see mps opting for no deal.


----------



## magneze (Mar 14, 2019)

1) Sarah Wollaston’s - calling for an extension to article 50 to allow for time for a referendum on Brexit.

2) Hilary Benn’s - saying next Wednesday should be set aside for a debate that would start the process of allowing MPs to hold indicative votes on Brexit alternatives. There is also an amendment to this amendment, from Labour’s Lucy Powell, changing the timing.

3) Labour’s - saying article 50 should be extended to allow time for MPs to find a majority for a different approach to Brexit.

4) Chris Bryant’s - saying Theresa May should not be allowed to put her deal to the Commons again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> Anyone else feel this could still end with a DUP/ERG mass crumble and a MV3 squeeze-thru win for May?  If so she will argue (with a certain amount of justification) that her strategy has, in the last, succeeded.
> 
> Knighted (or whatever the female equivalent is), anointed Iron Lady mk II, etc.


no


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> Anyone else feel this could still end with a DUP/ERG mass crumble and a MV3 squeeze-thru win for May?  If so she will argue (with a certain amount of justification) that her strategy has, in the last, succeeded.
> 
> Knighted (or whatever the female equivalent is), anointed Iron Lady mk II, etc.



No. She hasn't got the hands even if the ERG return to the fold


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 14, 2019)

Could that Bryant amendment be counter-productive?  If it fails it removes the speakers ability to block a further meaningful vote, doesn't it?


----------



## Crispy (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> And they are...?


second referendum amendment, the indicative votes amendment and Labour’s amendment (extension to allow time for MPs to achieve a majority), and a little bit of trolling in the form of Chris Bryant's one which reminds the hoouse that the same legislation can't be voted on more than once.

NOT the 110-signature one just upthread


----------



## andysays (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> And they are...?


Details on the BBC website and in magneze's post


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Personally I'm loving it.  Not the whole Brexit thing because that is infuriating and scary in equal measure, I'm just loving watching the tories tearing each other and themselves to pieces.



Absolutely.

I tend not to admit this for obvious reasons, but I voted for Brexit.

I didn't believe any of the made right wing nonsense by the leave campaign. I despise every one of them, and what they stand for.

I do believe the EU is not democratic (but I also believe that the UK parliament is not democratic).

Honestly, this is along the lines of what I wanted to see. I know it's bad. I wanted to give the political class an impossible task, one that would tear them apart. I wanted to see the Conservative party destroy itself. I wanted to see reform in the Labour party, and also felt that for it to move to the left that we would need to sever some links with the EU, which is after all a neoliberal project. 

I agree that it is kind of terrifying. I don't know how this will work out. I hope the chaos of it will open up some possibilities for change. But in the meantime it is very very satisfying to see the Tories exposed as ruthlessly incompetent.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> Anyone else feel this could still end with a DUP/ERG mass crumble and a MV3 squeeze-thru win for May?  If so she will argue (with a certain amount of justification) that her strategy has, in the last, succeeded.
> 
> Knighted (or whatever the female equivalent is), anointed Iron Lady mk II, etc.



Its an outside possibility but clearly there are some in the ERG who are furious they are being forced to accept a bad deal or no Brexit and their anger at the moment is being focused at May.  This scorched earth policy is directed at them now and they might just tell her to fuck off again.

Also, as the vote on the amendment showed last night even with the DUP and ERG behind her she still lost, albeit by a small margin.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 14, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> Could that Bryant amendment be counter-productive?  If it fails it removes the speakers ability to block a further meaningful vote, doesn't it?


No idea. But oh the comedy value if it passes


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 14, 2019)

Dillinger4 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> I tend not to admit this for obvious reasons, but I voted for Brexit.
> 
> ...


My best mate - to my massive surprise at the time - voted leave. His reason then was nothing more than "it'll be a right laugh seeing what happens". At the time I thought he'd gone mad, now I'm starting to think I should ask him for some lottery numbers.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No. She hasn't got the hands even if the ERG return to the fold





Teaboy said:


> Also, as the vote on the amendment showed last night even with the DUP and ERG behind her she still lost, albeit by a small margin.



Hadn't picked up on that.  Makes me feel a lot more reassured .  She's fucked then.  Waverers aren't going to get on board just to lose anyway.


----------



## tommers (Mar 14, 2019)

Another night's entertainment lined up. Some good ones in there.


----------



## tommers (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> My best mate - to my massive surprise at the time - voted leave. His reason then was nothing more than "it'll be a right laugh seeing what happens". At the time I thought he'd gone mad, now I'm starting to think I should ask him for some lottery numbers.


My mum voted it for it "to piss Cameron off".


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

Delighted to see the HoC parasites are being made to front up a 2nd ref vote. Major overreach by remoan.


----------



## Cid (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> My best mate - to my massive surprise at the time - voted leave. His reason then was nothing more than "it'll be a right laugh seeing what happens". At the time I thought he'd gone mad, now I'm starting to think I should ask him for some lottery numbers.



Yeah, but it’s run for two seasons now, and the characters are really starting to wear a bit. Plus the plot is becoming pretty ridiculous.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 14, 2019)

Cid said:


> Yeah, but it’s run for two seasons now, and the characters are really starting to wear a bit. Plus the plot is becoming pretty ridiculous.


Time for a reboot then


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 14, 2019)

Can't remember the exact thing, but I seem to recall that The Speaker can only enact what he believes to be 'the will of the house' (obviously meaning the majority of it's members) in refusing a bill to be read again.  It seems to me that if the Bryant amendment were defeated he would have no grounds to do that.
He's perhaps let himself off the hook there?


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Delighted to see the HoC parasites are being made to front up a 2nd ref vote. Major overreach by remoan.



Its a meaningless amendment put forward by a individual that has only 9 friends in the house.  It will get widely ignored by most and it will neither further nor damage the cause for a 2nd ref.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> She's going nowhere. No leadership contest is possible for 12 months.



She cant be removed by an official procedure (an MPs vote). But the cabinet can ultimately just tell her to fuck off. I really cant see her lasting much longer - her position is utterly untenable. When she is finally forced to abandon her deal that could be it for her.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

The Benn amendment is the one. Bryant might pass too I guess, but it's just trolling really. The others dont have a chance.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Dillinger4 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> I tend not to admit this for obvious reasons, but I voted for Brexit.
> 
> ...



Spot on. This has exposed so much that was already obvious.  Democracy in this country is a sham.  This seems like an ideal time for change but where from and how?  Fuck knows.


----------



## tommers (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> The Benn amendment is the one. Bryant might pass too I guess, but it's just trolling really. The others dont have a chance.


May I remind you that last night we had the government whipping against its own motion?

I mean, you're almost certainly right but they all seem to have gone mad.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> She cant be removed by an official procedure (an MPs vote). But the cabinet can ultimately just tell her to fuck off. I really cant see her lasting much longer - her position is utterly untenable. When she is finally forced to abandon her deal that could be it for her.



Even if her deal does pass she seems like toast.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Even if her deal does pass she seems like toast.


tbh if her deal somehow does squeak through, it doesn't solve much. It might be a Pyrrhic victory that simply leads to years and years of division and bitterness within her own ranks as the full implications of her shit deal slowly make themselves apparent, leaving nobody happy.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Even if her deal does pass she seems like toast.



To be replaced by who exactly? You and Kaka Tim seem convinced she's a goner. Walk me through how the cabinet tell her to 'fuck off' works and who they replace her with who's appointment doesn't immediately trigger a deepening of the war for the losing side. 

If the Tory split could be ended by replacing the leader it would have already happened. This isn't an incompetent/unpopular leader problem they have, it's an existential problem.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 14, 2019)

The can has to be kicked as far down the road as needed to await a change to the Geography on the island of Ireland.
I believe the Mesolithic period was about 5300 years long.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

tommers said:


> May I remind you that last night we had the government whipping against its own motion?
> 
> I mean, you're almost certainly right but they all seem to have gone mad.


I know it's fun to say this, but it's not really true - the amendment had changed the motion completely.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 14, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> When she is finally forced to abandon her deal that could be it for her.



Which could in theory be today if Bryant's amendment passes. Which tbf it probably won't.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> To be replaced by who exactly? You and Kaka Tim seem convinced she's a goner. Walk me through how the cabinet tell her to 'fuck off' works and who they replace her with who's appointment doesn't immediately trigger a deepening of the war for the losing side.
> 
> If the Tory split could be ended by replacing the leader it would have already happened. This isn't an incompetent/unpopular leader problem they have, it's an existential problem.



Because the party is in chaos and they hope that by replacing May some sort of order can restored - a new leader will not have the same baggage and will have - initially - more authority. May might just resign anyway. Yes - its a short term fix at best - but what else can they do?

How it works is - the cabinet says en masse - "we cant support you anymore - you have no authority" -  Which is pretty much exactly how they got rid of thatcher.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> My best mate - to my massive surprise at the time - voted leave. His reason then was nothing more than "it'll be a right laugh seeing what happens". At the time I thought he'd gone mad, now I'm starting to think I should ask him for some lottery numbers.




Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes


No need to thank me


----------



## ska invita (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> She's going nowhere. No leadership contest is possible for 12 months. The Tories would want a larger poll lead before calling an election, plus there is the fixed term parliament act . Brexit will now be kicked down the road until it can be safely overturned by the remain section of the elites. Plus, and this is the key point, there is no other leader who could hold things together any better than May. In fact a leadership contest would fuel the war.
> You'll just have to make do with the slow motion car crash.


Also Tories are 7 or 8 points ahead in a lot of recent polls. Though things are a bit up in the air at the moment so could change


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> To be replaced by who exactly? You and Kaka Tim seem convinced she's a goner. Walk me through how the cabinet tell her to 'fuck off' works and who they replace her with who's appointment doesn't immediately trigger a deepening of the war for the losing side.
> 
> If the Tory split could be ended by replacing the leader it would have already happened. This isn't an incompetent/unpopular leader problem they have, it's an existential problem.


an existential problem with their support hovering around 8 points ahead of labour 

yeh it's a real existential problem


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> Because the party is in chaos and they hope that by replacing May some sort of order can restored - a new leader will not have the same baggage and will have - initially - more authority. May might just resign anyway. Yes - its a short term fix at best - but what else can they do?
> 
> How it works is - the cabinet says en masse - "we cant support you anymore - you have no authority" -  Which is pretty much exactly how they got rid of thatcher.


there's a reason this hasn't happened. it's because they have no intention of replacing her right now.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Mar 14, 2019)

We should have a general election.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> To be replaced by who exactly? You and Kaka Tim seem convinced she's a goner. Walk me through how the cabinet tell her to 'fuck off' works and who they replace her with who's appointment doesn't immediately trigger a deepening of the war for the losing side.
> 
> If the Tory split could be ended by replacing the leader it would have already happened. This isn't an incompetent/unpopular leader problem they have, it's an existential problem.



Up until last night she by and large had the support of the cabinet.  Last night cabinet members abstained on a 3 line whip with rumours they were even allowed to.  In any other situation they would have all been sacked but she simply can't do that.  Any vestige of authority she had left was smashed.  There is even a question of whether the main motion tonight will be in her name or the government's because she can't whip anymore because no one will take any notice.

At some point when some sort of change happens (her deal passes or A50 extended for longer than a couple of months) the cabinet as a whole will tell her she no longer has their support.  She lost the backbenchers a long time ago.  Even she is not so stubborn as to realise that she can't carry on as she'd be unable to get anything at all through the commons. 

Who they would choose after that I don't know but she will be out shortly.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> an existential problem with their support hovering around 8 points ahead of labour
> 
> yeh it's a real existential problem



It's the buzz word of the day, have you noticed? It permeates into general usage so people end up, like here, talking absolute shit for the sake of using the latest 'in' word.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> She's going nowhere. No leadership contest is possible for 12 months. The Tories would want a larger poll lead before calling an election, plus there is the fixed term parliament act . Brexit will now be kicked down the road until it can be safely overturned by the remain section of the elites. Plus, and this is the key point, there is no other leader who could hold things together any better than May. In fact a leadership contest would fuel the war.
> You'll just have to make do with the slow motion car crash.



I agree Brexit will be kicked further down the road. But while up until this point May has acted as a useful aid to that can-kicking, she doesn't any more. There will be a move now towards a 'softer' (hate these terms but shorthand) Brexit than she was offering and her Brexit was too 'soft' for the Brexiteers.

The EU will I expect say for an extension to be granted some red lines have to go, particularly now Parliament has officially signalled it does not want no deal at any time, and that therefore Brexit will only happen with a deal. May can't abandon her red lines but someone else could. 

I'm sure she'll probably have one last crack at passing her deal first but do you see it passing? After that, what? 




Pickman's model said:


> an existential problem with their support hovering around 8 points ahead of labour
> 
> yeh it's a real existential problem



Labour were 20 points behind in 2017 - I don't think the brighter Tories think they can win an election. Certainly not having failed to 'deliver' Brexit.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 14, 2019)

Had a meeting with someone who heads up  part of Médecins Sans Frontières today and he laughed a lot about Brexit. Used the words 'stupid' and 'idiots' a lot, described Brexit as 'self harm' and said that world looks at Britain as a hostile/selfish country.

Good to get some feedback eh?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 14, 2019)

I'm backing a GE just to see the Tinge chancers meet reality


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Labour were 20 points behind in 2017 - I don't think the brighter Tories think they can win an election. Certainly not having failed to 'deliver' Brexit.


i suspect the composition of the next house of commons will not be too dissimilar from the composition of the current one, i don't believe that win or lose the conservative party will disappear as the liberal party disappeared in the 1920s.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm backing a GE just to see the Tinge chancers meet reality


the t-chancers as you might call them


----------



## Badgers (Mar 14, 2019)

Dillinger4 said:


> We should have a general election.


Bring back Guy Fawkes


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> Because the party is in chaos and they hope that by replacing May some sort of order can restored - a new leader will not have the same baggage and will have - initially - more authority. May might just resign anyway. Yes - its a short term fix at best - but what else can they do?
> 
> How it works is - the cabinet says en masse - "we cant support you anymore - you have no authority" -  Which is pretty much exactly how they got rid of thatcher.



How would replacing her with a remain supporter or a leave supporter 'restore order'? It would do the opposite never mind the absolute bloodbath of the leadership contest from which in the current moment they might not be able to recover from.   

On your latter point there is simply not the mass - or a figure who a mass could or would unite around (can you imagine Amber Rudd speaking for Gove etc) - in the Cabinet. 

When do you think she goes by the way? today? this week? this month?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Bring back Guy Fawkes


i wonder who the last mp to be hanged was, it seems an awful long time ago

milligan i suppose


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How would replacing her with a remain supporter or a leave supporter 'restore order'? It would do the opposite never mind the absolute bloodbath of the leadership contest from which in the current moment they might not be able to recover from.
> 
> On your latter point there is simply not the mass - or a figure who a mass could or would unite around (can you imagine Amber Rudd speaking for Gove etc) - in the Cabinet.
> 
> When do you think she goes by the way? today? this week? this month?


being as there's not going to be a leadership contest as matters stand for almost a year 'the current moment' is of er no moment


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> To be replaced by who exactly? You and Kaka Tim seem convinced she's a goner. Walk me through how the cabinet tell her to 'fuck off' works and who they replace her with who's appointment doesn't immediately trigger a deepening of the war for the losing side.
> 
> If the Tory split could be ended by replacing the leader it would have already happened. This isn't an incompetent/unpopular leader problem they have, it's an existential problem.



She wouldn’t be replaced to ‘end the split’. She would replaced for one side to seize power. The ERG boneheads know that it could split the party, but they may prefer a ‘pure offer’ because they believe it would make the party what it should be. Up until now the Tories have successfully avoided this, but the divisions are so great now, May so lacking in authority, that it is a real possibility.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> being as there's not going to be a leadership contest as matters stand for almost a year 'the current moment' is of er no moment



More than one way to send her on her way.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i suspect the composition of the next house of commons will not be too dissimilar from the composition of the current one, i don't believe that win or lose the conservative party will disappear as the liberal party disappeared in the 1920s.



I think you could be right - as I posted up thread odds say that the next election will produce another hung parliament. My point though was that the Tories will know they can't win an election - a hung Parliament could see them having to work with the DUP again or tack together confidence and supply from somewhere to form a govt. That would further exacerbate their divisions - they either need a strong majority or failing that some time in opposition to regroup. 

I'm not suggesting they could disappear but an existential crisis doesn't neccessarily mean that - they exist to be a party of govt, to wield power but their social base is in rapid decline, they're struggling to remain unified, and apart from 2015 when they squeaked it they haven't won a majority since 1992. Most Tory MP's care more about having strong Tory govts than they do about Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> More than one way to send her on her way.


indeed there are, eg


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I'm not suggesting they could disappear but an existential crisis doesn't neccessarily mean that - they exist to be a party of govt, to wield power but their social base is in rapid decline, they're struggling to remain unified, and apart from 2015 when they squeaked it they haven't won a majority since 1992. Most Tory MP's care more about having strong Tory govts than they do about Brexit.


their current social base is in decline, but the tory party hasn't survived hundreds of years without a certain electoral agility.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I think you could be right - as I posted up thread odds say that the next election will produce another hung parliament. My point though was that the Tories will know they can't win an election - a hung Parliament could see them having to work with the DUP again or tack together confidence and supply from somewhere to form a govt. That would further exacerbate their divisions - they either need a strong majority or failing that some time in opposition to regroup.
> 
> I'm not suggesting they could disappear but an existential crisis doesn't neccessarily mean that - they exist to be a party of govt, to wield power but their social base is in rapid decline, they're struggling to remain unified, and apart from 2015 when they squeaked it they haven't won a majority since 1992. Most Tory MP's care more about having strong Tory govts than they do about Brexit.


Ironically enough the one strong govt the tories have formed since 1992 was the 2010 coalition. That coalition suited the tories magnificently. The libdems were so spineless they had zero influence, and could be used as cover for a brutal set of reforms, but their presence could at the same time be used to keep the tory eurosceptics at bay. It all started to go wrong from 2015.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> their current social base is in decline, but the tory party hasn't survived hundreds of years without a certain electoral agility.



Sure but right now they're split on how to regenerate a social base - one side want to hark back to the Conservative party from days of yore, flags and church and traditionalism, and the other side want Thatcherism with a human, socially liberal face. Making them about as agile as


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> indeed there are, eg
> View attachment 164433



Another tale from another time. Yet I am not allowed to forget.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Sure but right now they're split on how to regenerate a social base - one side want to hark back to the Conservative party from days of yore, flags and church and traditionalism, and the other side want Thatcherism with a human, socially liberal face. Making them about as agile as


two social bases are better than one


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> She wouldn’t be replaced to ‘end the split’. She would replaced for one side to seize power. The ERG boneheads know that it could split the party, but they may prefer a ‘pure offer’ because they believe it would make the party what it should be. Up until now the Tories have successfully avoided this, but the divisions are so great now, May so lacking in authority, that it is a real possibility.



But therein lies their problem -neither side fancies their chances of seizing power. As for the ERG they have already had a go and failed badly.


----------



## rekil (Mar 14, 2019)

JimW said:


> Looks like City of Sadness, what a great film.


Yep. The first in a list of 100 forrin fillums I lined up.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

People's Vote campaigners frothing at Benn amendment by the way - not the right time etc. 

This is interesting - Alistair Campbell saying fact that Caroline Flint supports shows it's not a good idea. I guess he means that the vote would be on May's deal v Remain and he's worried May's deal will win:


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Sure but right now they're split on how to regenerate a social base - one side want to hark back to the Conservative party from days of yore, flags and church and traditionalism, and the other side want Thatcherism with a human, socially liberal face. Making them about as agile as


Yep, the very dilemma that the coalition solved for five years - Cameron could side definitively with the Thatcherism with a liberal face wing. May appears to be trying to be both of these things at the same time -  as reflected in her oobleck brexit deal - and ends up pleasing neither wing.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> But therein lies their problem -neither side fancies their chances of seizing power. As for the ERG they have already had a go and failed badly.



How many of the socially liberal side have already decided they'd be better off without the ERG? How many will decide that at some point? We already know the ERG can't take over the party.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> People's Vote campaigners frothing at Benn amendment by the way - not the right time etc.
> 
> This is interesting - Alistair Campbell saying fact that Caroline Flint supports shows it's not a good idea. I guess he means that the vote would be on May's deal v Remain and he's worried May's deal will win:




Yup. A major overreach at this point. If you are going to subvert a vote of 17 million plus people you need to follow the process.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> two social bases are better than one



But one of those group is Remain and the other is Leave.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Its the Wollaston amendment and yes they don't appear to be happy.  It's trying to call Labour out when Labour are clearly not ready.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How would replacing her with a remain supporter or a leave supporter 'restore order'? It would do the opposite never mind the absolute bloodbath of the leadership contest from which in the current moment they might not be able to recover from.
> 
> On your latter point there is simply not the mass - or a figure who a mass could or would unite around (can you imagine Amber Rudd speaking for Gove etc) - in the Cabinet.
> 
> When do you think she goes by the way? today? this week? this month?



well it wont "restore order" - but it might move things - right now the government is spiralling out of control.All precedent says that May can not survive. And if they decide they have to have a general election none of them want may fronting it.
They may think that some sort of "compromise" candidate (i.e. Gove)  could limit the damage. They may well end up with something worse - a hard brexiteer in charge and the party splitting.

When does she go? Probably depends on what happens over the next 48 hours. a boat load of fuck knows - but if her deal gets finally killed - then it could be within days. If she manages to find some road to kick the can down - a couple of months.

All sorts could happen - enough tory mps could resign the whip and bring down the government, the ERG might declare UDI, a military coup led by the larry the cat. everything is on the table


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yup. A major overreach at this point. If you are going to subvert a vote of 17 million plus people you need to follow the process.



I'm against a second vote but you don't subvert a democratic process by having another democratic process.  By that logic the last vote subverted the original Thatcher led referendum.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> How many of the socially liberal side have already decided they'd be better off without the ERG? How many will decide that at some point? We already know the ERG can't take over the party.



The problems for the double liberal wing is that a) they are not strong enough to emphatically defeat the other wing; b) they lack a candidate and c) to so do risks a split in which case they are all fucked.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> I'm against a second vote but you don't subvert a democratic process by having another democratic process.  By that logic the last vote subverted the original Thatcher led referendum.



What Thatcher referendum? if you mean the Wilson referendum the key difference is that that one was enacted and set the rules for 50 years.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The problems for the double liberal wing is that a) they are not strong enough to emphatically defeat the other wing; b) they lack a candidate and c) to so do risks a split in which case they are all fucked.



This is a fair point but I reckon someone like Gove or Sajid Javid might be up for having a go at trying to clear out the most hardline while still attempting to face both ways.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Hilariously, the People's Vote Campaign have come out against Sarah Woolaston's people's vote amendment, just as everyone was gearing up for a few hours screaming at Labour for whipping to abstain.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> All precedent says that May can not survive. And if they decide they have to have a general election none of them want may fronting it.



Precedent was ditched months ago. On the latter point I agree - she's already had to concede that however.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What Thatcher referendum? if you mean the Ted Heath referendum the key difference is that that one was enacted and set the rules for 50 years.


40 years.

or rather 25, the labour referenda of c.1997 setting subsequent precedents esp the welsh devolution one setting the precedent on what to do with a very narrow majority


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What Thatcher referendum? if you mean the Ted Heath referendum the key difference is that that one was enacted and set the rules for 50 years.



I meant this one,







But yes everything is predated by something.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> I meant this one,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


she always reminds me of davros


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> I meant this one,
> 
> But yes everything is predated by something.



That picture was taken during the referendum called by Harold Wilson. 

What happened in 1975 was that voters decided to stay in the EEC. What then happened was that Britain stayed in the EEC.  

Can you see the difference between that referendum and this one?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What Thatcher referendum? if you mean the Ted Heath referendum the key difference is that that one was enacted and set the rules for 50 years.


Harold Wilson’s Labour government voted into power in the second GE of 74 promised the 75 referendum.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That picture was taken during the referendum called by Harold Wilson.
> 
> What happened in 1975 was that voters decided to stay in the EEC. What then happened was that Britain stayed in the EEC.
> 
> Can you see the difference between that referendum and this one?


 
Cross post!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Harold Wilson’s Labour government voted into power in the second GE of 74 promised the 75 referendum.



Indeed. if I remember correctly once we voted the Government enacted the decision too. What an old fashioned response eh?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That picture was taken during the referendum called by Harold Wilson.
> 
> What happened in 1975 was that voters decided to stay in the EEC. What then happened was that Britain stayed in the EEC.
> 
> Can you see the difference between that referendum and this one?


Yeah, in 1975 people voted correctly.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Indeed. if I remember correctly once we voted the Government enacted the decision too. What an old fashioned response eh?


 
The Labour Party started to regret it by 1980 though.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Indeed. if I remember correctly once we voted the Government enacted the decision too. What an old fashioned response eh?


The government enacted it this time too.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That picture was taken during the referendum called by Harold Wilson.
> 
> What happened in 1975 was that voters decided to stay in the EEC. What then happened was that Britain stayed in the EEC.
> 
> Can you see the difference between that referendum and this one?



OK I see.

The difference being things change over time.  They're still democratic processes though.  We had two elections in the space of two years, May has just lost a vote twice and will come back again and maybe a fourth time.  

As I say I don't accept you can subvert a democratic process but having another equally democratic process, that doesn't make any sense to me.  As I say I'm against another ref.

Parliament just cancelling A50 would be subverting a democratic process.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Plus the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties removed a lot of wriggle room.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> The Labour Party started to regret it by 1980 though.



The entire labour movement did. In fact the only pro EU trade unions by the end of the 70's were the extreme right ones. And remember, this was before the single market project.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

ska invita said:


> The government enacted it this time too.



No, they enacted the notification procedure.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Yeah, in 1975 people voted correctly.



Correctly for what?


----------



## Supine (Mar 14, 2019)

tommers said:


> My mum voted it for it "to piss Cameron off".



To be fair, it worked pretty quickly


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> Hilariously, the People's Vote Campaign have come out against Sarah Woolaston's people's vote amendment, just as everyone was gearing up for a few hours screaming at Labour for whipping to abstain.


Worth noting that after a couple of years trying to bounce Corbyn into supporting the people's vote, they now seem to have agreed his strategy is correct after all. Great stuff. I recommend a look round FBPE twitter this afternoon for anyone in need of cheering up.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> Worth noting that after a couple of years trying to bounce Corbyn into supporting the people's vote, they now seem to have agreed his strategy is correct after all. Great stuff. I recommend a look round FBPE twitter this afternoon for anyone in need of cheering up.



It's completely mad. Rowing back at a rate of knots. They've twigged that the best way to cancel Brexit is not to demand another referendum.


----------



## Beermoth (Mar 14, 2019)

It's almost like the People's Vote was only really about empty liberal posturing all along.

Perish the thought...


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> It's completely mad. Rowing back at a rate of knots. They've twigged that the best way to cancel Brexit is not to demand another referendum.


The amendment would never have passed, and was proposed entirely to embarrass Labour - the PV campaign is correct that it's best to leave it today. If your priority is to maximise the chance of a people's vote passing anyway, rather than create heat for your new pro-EU parliamentary grouping.

Wonder if this shows Campbell is now coodinating with the Labour front bench too though?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> No idea. But oh the comedy value if it passes


'No, just stop it, we're not voting on it again' - it's almost getting to the point of discussing things the way normal people do.  Maybe the next one should be 'That my Right Honourable Friend, the Prime Minister, stop acting like a fucking div'.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> she always reminds me of davros


I take it you mean the creator of the Daleks not the place?
The GE that brought her to power was the first one I voted in, a dark day indeed.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> The amendment would never have passed, and was proposed entirely to embarrass Labour - the PV campaign is correct that it's best to leave it today. If your priority is to maximise the chance of a people's vote passing anyway, rather than create heat for your new pro-EU parliamentary grouping.
> 
> Wonder if this shows Campbell is now coodinating with the Labour front bench too though?



I'd be surprised if he wasn't with the likes of Starmer.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder who the last mp to be hanged was, it seems an awful long time ago
> 
> milligan i suppose


A member of the Orange Order if I remember correctly.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 14, 2019)

Wilf said:


> 'No, just stop it, we're not voting on it again' - it's almost getting to the point of discussing things the way normal people do.  Maybe the next one should be 'That my Right Honourable Friend, the Prime Minister, stop acting like a fucking div'.



I can see her now: 'It's just advisory, it's not legally binding!'


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Yeah, in 1975 people voted correctly.


What you mean in the manner pushed by Thatcher, nearly the whole Tory party, the CBI etc?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> I take it you mean the creator of the Daleks not the place?
> The GE that brought her to power was the first one I voted in, a dark day indeed.


The place davos the person davros


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That picture was taken during the referendum called by Harold Wilson.
> 
> What happened in 1975 was that voters decided to stay in the EEC. What then happened was that Britain stayed in the EEC.
> 
> Can you see the difference between that referendum and this one?


So when was the Ted heath referendum you were on about earlier?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 14, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> What you mean in the manner pushed by Thatcher, nearly the whole Tory party, the CBI etc?


In the manner that those who called it wanted it to go. This whole shitshow has come from people not thinking the referendum would go the "wrong" way.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

So, for remainers has the logic now become: 1. get commitment to indicative votes 2. decide amongst themselves whether to abandon ref 2 and retreat to Norway/single market type things?

By the by, if May is forced into indicative votes - something she must detest the idea of - presumably it will just be a list: no deal gets 180; extension gets 290; pm's deal 292 etc. It will be literally that, just an indication, no way of working out how the house would vote in a transferrable vote scenario? In other words, May would still be able to say 'yeah, croak croak, X did the highest vote, but there's no way of knowing it would have got through'. So, like everything else she can still fucking ignore it.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> In the manner that those who called it wanted it to go. This whole shitshow has come from people not thinking the referendum would go the "wrong" way.


OK I see what you mean now.

But it is worth noting that the referendum was called by the Wilson government which was deeply divided on the issue - hence why, like in 2016, collective cabinet responsibility was suspended.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> In the manner that those who called it wanted it to go. This whole shitshow has come from people not thinking the referendum would go the "wrong" way.


The fundamental contradiction at the heart of this. A referendum was called asking change/no change, but with no programme laying out what change meant nor any indication as to who would be mandated to implement that programme (stark contrast to, for instance, Scottish indy ref or any other UK referendum that I can think of). That's what makes me laugh when the 17.4 million are solemnly invoked, as if it justified everything and anything in the name of doing brexit. It's classing doublethink, invoking democracy in order to trample over democracy.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

Mention of Stephen Milligan makes me wonder, would you rather have as your political epitaph:

'Died in a wanking accident'
or
'Introduced the same Brexit Bill 3 times and still fucking failed'.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No, they enacted the notification procedure.


Disagree, they are attempting to enact all of it and the PM has done her best for it to proceed. Its being blocked by non Tories and some awkward backbenchers.

Your original post was suggesting that the government are deliberately blocking brexit. That isn't the case.

Unless I misunderstood you


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

And here come the DUP:
DUP leader ready to strike deal with May to end Brexit impasse

All it needs is Geoffrey Cox to make his advice 'clearer' and Brexit's a done deal. Remains best hopes are the strength of Geoff's spine and the bloody mindedness of the Speaker. Strange days indeed.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Nah. There's enough tory headbangers who won't move on this even with the DUP onboard IMO.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> Nah. There's enough tory headbangers who won't move on this even with the DUP onboard IMO.


Not to mention the tory remainers who've now smelt blood


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> Nah. There's enough tory headbangers who won't move on this even with the DUP onboard IMO.


Could be close with the DUP and the headbangers on board. Just the odd rogue tory remainer like Clarke left then - how many of those are there aside from Clarke and the three tory tinges?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

Wilf said:


> And here come the DUP:
> DUP leader ready to strike deal with May to end Brexit impasse
> 
> All it needs is Geoffrey Cox to make his advice 'clearer' and Brexit's a done deal. Remains best hopes are the strength of Geoff's spine and the bloody mindedness of the Speaker. Strange days indeed.



Haven't we already done this? Or are the DUP/ERG actually coming around now that no deal is off the table?


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 14, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> No deal has been done
> The deadline recedes many years
> This country is fucked



too many sylla
bles in middle line, take out
"the" and you're golden 

if only brexit could be so easy.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 14, 2019)

Wilf said:


> And here come the DUP:
> DUP leader ready to strike deal with May to end Brexit impasse
> 
> All it needs is Geoffrey Cox to make his advice 'clearer' and Brexit's a done deal. Remains best hopes are the strength of Geoff's spine and the bloody mindedness of the Speaker. Strange days indeed.


From that article...



> discussions are now taking place around a point that Jacob Rees-Mogg, the ERG chair, raised in the House of Commons before Tuesday’s vote, relating to article 62 of the Vienna convention... use of the convention required a “radical change of circumstances” and said that the international court of justice had considered “the fall of the Soviet Union, disappearance of the Warsaw Pact and dissolution of Czechoslovakia, were not sufficient to satisfy this ground


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

We'll need a special Court of Brexit Human Rights in, um, The Hague.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> Nah. There's enough tory headbangers who won't move on this even with the DUP onboard IMO.


A DUP blessing is certainly necessary for shitshow 3 to get through, but maybe not sufficient. If it happens it will speed up the crumbliness of the anti-May's deal vote and there might just be a herd effect.  A defeat of 25 say and she almost certainly has a go at shitshow 4.  You are probably right, but the way opens up for her to win with this, even if it doesn't manage it.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Wilf said:


> And here come the DUP:
> DUP leader ready to strike deal with May to end Brexit impasse
> 
> All it needs is Geoffrey Cox to make his advice 'clearer' and Brexit's a done deal. Remains best hopes are the strength of Geoff's spine and the bloody mindedness of the Speaker. Strange days indeed.



If they do budge I'll say that is one victory for May and she's stared them down.  Doesn't say much for them if they suddenly can accept a deal they said they'd never accept.  Makes you wonder what they were holding out for or what they've been bribed with?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> too many sylla
> bles in middle line, take out
> "the" and you're golden
> 
> if only brexit could be so easy.



Japanese efficiency.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> From that article...



Desperate stuff isn't it?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

Wilf said:


> A DUP blessing is certainly necessary for shitshow 3 to get through, but maybe not sufficient. If it happens it will speed up the crumbliness of the anti-May's deal vote and there might just be a herd effect.  A defeat of 25 say and she almost certainly has a go at shitshow 4.  You are probably right, but the way opens up for her to win with this, even if it doesn't manage it.


The arrogance is breathtaking tbh. It's my deal, based on my red lines, or nothing. There is no other way. It's like she's naturalised her deal as the only deal that could ever happen that 'honours brexit'.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Could be close with the DUP and the headbangers on board. Just the odd rogue tory remainer like Clarke left then - how many of those are there aside from Clarke and the three tory tinges?



Ken Clarke has voted for May's deal twice - would he change his vote now that the chance of a softer/no brexit is looming?
Justine Greening Tory remainer voted against it I think. Dominic Grieve too I think? not sure how many others... If DUP and ERG came on board would there be enough rebels to still see it defeated?! I have no idea but I hope so...


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Japanese efficiency.



It's a brexit haiku so I suppose that means it can be written however the fuck we want.

We can even make a sonnet and call it a haiku, because thats what taking back control is all about!!1


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Just seen Trump in a clip with Leo Varadkar, if only Mrs May had listened to President Trump’S advice, this would all be over.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Ken Clarke has voted for May's deal twice - would he change his vote now that the chance of a softer/no brexit is looming?
> Justine Greening Tory remainer voted against it I think. Dominic Grieve too I think? not sure how many others... If DUP and ERG came on board would there be enough rebels to still see it defeated?! I have no idea but I hope so...


Ah I stand corrected. I just assumed Clarke was voting against. Odd tbh given what he thinks of both Brexit and the referendum itself that he's voting for it.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The arrogance is breathtaking tbh. It's my deal, based on my red lines, or nothing. There is no other way. It's like she's naturalised her deal as the only deal that could ever happen that 'honours brexit'.


I'm not going to reduce May's approach down to a mental health thing, it's political. But there is a sense of her cabinet, by and large, allowing someone with an obsession to make the running in a crucial decision on which hinge jobs, billions and the rest. Politically at least, she's pathological, she's Captain Ahab.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'm not going to reduce May's approach down to a mental health thing, it's political. But there is a sense of her cabinet, by and large, allowing someone with an obsession to make the running in a crucial decision on which hinge jobs, billions and the rest. Politically at least, she's pathological, she's Captain Ahab.


Yes, it is a wider tory thing as well, of course - the classic manifestation of it being the invoking of 'national interest' whenever they want to talk about 'the tory interest'. I also didn't mean it mental-health-wise, purely politics-wise.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Ken Clarke has voted for May's deal twice - would he change his vote now that the chance of a softer/no brexit is looming?
> Justine Greening Tory remainer voted against it I think. Dominic Grieve too I think? not sure how many others... If DUP and ERG came on board would there be enough rebels to still see it defeated?! I have no idea but I hope so...



Could be single figures.  The ERG don't speak as one and there are other head bangers as well.  I still think there are enough of them detest the deal so much they'd never vote for it.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Could be close with the DUP and the headbangers on board. Just the odd rogue tory remainer like Clarke left then - how many of those are there aside from Clarke and the three tory tinges?


Looking at the recent voting pattern...looks like the 'hard core' rebels number about 5 to 7 with Guto Bebb, Justine Greening, Dominic Grieve, Sam Gyimah & Philip Lee all consistently voting with the opposition and Ken Clarke & Ed Vaisey pretty much matching it.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 14, 2019)

Is it possible more tory remainers would rebel now that the threat of no deal has (theoretically) been taken off the table and the chance of a "soft" brexit is more likely? Or is this wishful thinking - actually imagining any of them have a spine?
How many labour rebels are there likely to be?!


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 14, 2019)

Head banger Tory Christopher Chope is threatening to vote against the govt in a no confidence vote


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Is it possible more tory remainers would rebel now that the threat of no deal has (theoretically) been taken off the table and the chance of a "soft" brexit is more likely? Or is this wishful thinking - actually imagining any of them have a spine?
> How many labour rebels are there likely to be?!


The threat of no deal hasn't been taken off the table, even theoretically. They just said last night that they really, really don't want it.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> The threat of no deal hasn't been taken off the table, even theoretically. They just said last night that they really, really don't want it.


But *if* the Benn amendment passes today then it's quite unlikely I think... the EU will give them an extension?


----------



## Flavour (Mar 14, 2019)

It's like the end of the Grand National when there are still a few horses in the race and the commentator is machine-gunning the syllables in such a way that any one listening on the radio could not possibly imagine what was going on. 

I still think we'll have no deal, despite their silly vote to take it off the table.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Is it possible more tory remainers would rebel now that the threat of no deal has (theoretically) been taken off the table and the chance of a "soft" brexit is more likely? Or is this wishful thinking - actually imagining any of them have a spine?
> How many labour rebels are there likely to be?!


I've been wondering that as well. If they're serious about wanting a soft brexit, surely they go for the long extension option that the EU is apparently open to - up to the end of next year supposedly - and starting a fresh negotiation without May's red lines. 

Re: labour rebels, there were three in the last vote. I don't see why there would be more next time, but who knows? Kate hoey? What would she do? Does she even know? Plus there are the odd former labour independents like Field who will vote for May's deal. If the DUP and ERG come on board, it looks excruciatingly tight to me. Regardless of anything else, I really fucking hate the idea that May will win in this standoff. Gutted by the thought of it.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> . If the DUP and ERG come on board, it looks excruciatingly tight to me. Regardless of anything else, I really fucking hate the idea that May will win in this standoff. Gutted by the thought of it.


Same - feel physically sick


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> But *if* the Benn amendment passes today then it's quite unlikely I think... the EU will give them an extension?


The threat of no deal remains just as likely today as it did yesterday (even with an extension). In the end, it'll be _because_ it's a choice between no deal and whatever eventually happens that gets what eventually happens over the line. The PV campaign need no deal to be a live issue if they've any chance of getting the votes just as much as May does. The politics is in eliminating all the other options.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

Wonder how they'll manage to fuck up the votes tonight? Lose the lobby keys? Ken Clarke will bang his Hush Puppies on the dispatch box? Invasion of the White Walkers (erg faction)?


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Head banger Tory Christopher Chope is threatening to vote against the govt in a no confidence vote



Yes it doesn't sound like U75 favourite Chope is ready to back May quite yet.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

Flavour said:


> It's like the end of the Grand National when there are still a few horses in the race and the commentator is machine-gunning the syllables in such a way that any one listening on the radio could not possibly imagine what was going on.
> 
> .


Nah, it's like that year when they got the starting tape wrapped round the jockey's necks.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Wonder how they'll manage to fuck up the votes tonight? Lose the lobby keys? Ken Clarke will bang his Hush Puppies on the dispatch box? Invasion of the White Walkers (erg faction)?



JRM tables his amendments.
Apologies to Ronnie Barker.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, it is a wider tory thing as well, of course - the classic manifestation of it being the invoking of 'national interest' whenever they want to talk about 'the tory interest'. I also didn't mean it mental-health-wise, purely politics-wise.


That's hardly a Tory thing, it's a politician thing. Look at all the strong remainers going on about how "nobody voted to be poorer", "I'm going to do what's best for the country". All politicians are banging on about "putting the country first"


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> The threat of no deal remains just as likely today as it did yesterday (even with an extension). In the end, it'll be _because_ it's a choice between no deal and whatever eventually happens that gets what eventually happens over the line. The PV campaign need no deal to be a live issue if they've any chance of getting the votes just as much as May does. The politics is in eliminating all the other options.


ok, i'll rephrase. the likelihood of there being a no-deal on march 29 is less if the benn amendment passes and parliament votes to extend art.50. big ifs of course, got my claws crossed. i think the EU will grant the extension though.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> . The politics is in eliminating all the other options.


And that's the absurdity of parliamentary procedure, options only eliminate each other via specific channels. There's rarely a simple of discussion of what MPs actually want. None of the disagreements of Brexit would disappear with a more human way of discussing things, but some of the absurdities of the last few days would be lessened.

Hastily adds... I'm not in the business of improving parliamentary democracy and it's best mate, neo-liberalism. But this shitshow does reveal its absurdities.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 14, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Is it possible more tory remainers would rebel now that the threat of no deal has (theoretically) been taken off the table and the chance of a "soft" brexit is more likely? Or is this wishful thinking - actually imagining any of them have a spine?
> How many labour rebels are there likely to be?!



My spidey senses can see this passing with the help of a few labour rebels, May gets to look a hero and is lauded in the Tory press, remain Twitter (and assorted shit-stirring bots) gets abusive towards leave supporting Labour MPs, ‘moderate’ Labour MPs kick off about the level of this abuse and blame Corbyn supporters, Labour Party directs all anger inwards and eats itself, eternal Tory rule, a boot stepping on your face forever.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 14, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> My spidey senses can see this passing with the help of a few labour rebels, May gets to look a hero and is lauded in the Tory press, remain Twitter (and assorted shit-stirring bots) gets abusive towards leave supporting Labour MPs, ‘moderate’ Labour MPs kick off about the level of this abuse and blame Corbyn supporters, Labour Party directs all anger inwards and eats itself, eternal Tory rule, a boot stepping on your face forever.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 14, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> My spidey senses can see this passing with the help of a few labour rebels, May gets to look a hero and is lauded in the Tory press, remain Twitter (and assorted shit-stirring bots) gets abusive towards leave supporting Labour MPs, ‘moderate’ Labour MPs kick off about the level of this abuse and blame Corbyn supporters, Labour Party directs all anger inwards and eats itself, eternal Tory rule, a boot stepping on your face forever.



The vote on Benn's amendment in a few minutes may give a steer as to where the parliamentary arithmetic is.


----------



## Poot (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> The threat of no deal remains just as likely today as it did yesterday (even with an extension). In the end, it'll be _because_ it's a choice between no deal and whatever eventually happens that gets what eventually happens over the line. The PV campaign need no deal to be a live issue if they've any chance of getting the votes just as much as May does. The politics is in eliminating all the other options.


This perfectly sums up the half-formed idea that I've had for a long time (which was based on my feelings that in order to get anything to become a reality they had to make it _appear_ better than the alternative - it's all about perception, after all. And hence the doom mongering. That was why I was a bit surprised about last night's vote, even though like you say it absolutely doesn't take no deal off the table. Maybe that's a win/win on the perception front, actually. Assuage remainers' fears but still have a big stick for negotiating).


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2019)

85 for new referendum 334 Against



Which is handy. Coz
I"m not sure how they would have gone about sacking the electoral so they could put their own more 'meaningful' one in place


----------



## Patteran (Mar 14, 2019)

Powell amendment amendment defeated by 3 - 314 to 311.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Benn defeated too. That's yer lot for tonight then, no fireworks.


----------



## Patteran (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> Benn defeated too. That's yer lot for tonight then, no fireworks.



314 -312. Blimey.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Patteran said:


> 314 -312. Blimey.


looking forward to seeing the breakdown on that


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

Blimey indeed. Is that an indicator of how close it will be next week if (perhaps now I should say when) May has a third go at her rotten deal?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Blimey indeed. Is that an indicator of how close it will be next week if (perhaps now I should say when) May has a third go at her rotten deal?


Well, it was quite a specific question, so it’s difficult to know how that can be extrapolated to “and for the third time of asking, what about my deal?”.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Blimey indeed. Is that an indicator of how close it will be next week if (perhaps now I should say when) May has a third go at her rotten deal?


no.


----------



## Winot (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> looking forward to seeing the breakdown on that


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2019)

Does this mean we don't have to go through all this indicative vote stuff now?


----------



## Winot (Mar 14, 2019)

It’s a sign of how fucked May is that a margin of *2 votes* on a motion which would have basically eradicated the government is being spoken of as a great victory.


----------



## tim (Mar 14, 2019)

Brexit crunch time is a bit like gravel crunch time with regards to what happens next.


----------



## Winot (Mar 14, 2019)

chilango said:


> Does this mean we don't have to go through all this indicative vote stuff now?



Could still happen but HMG will be in charge of process.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2019)

Winot said:


> Could still happen but HMG will be in charge of process.



Excellent. Far more entertaining.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 14, 2019)

chilango said:


> Does this mean we don't have to go through all this indicative vote stuff now?


Gov as promised indicative votes if deal isn't passed by next Thursday. This was about who gets to control the timetable.


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Gov as promised indicative votes if deal isn't passed by next week. This was about who gets to control make a complete shambles of the timetable.



Ffy


----------



## andysays (Mar 14, 2019)

Labour amendment rejected by 16 votes


----------



## Argonia (Mar 14, 2019)

My head hurts


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2019)

....any fucking motion it seems.


----------



## Patteran (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> looking forward to seeing the breakdown on that



It's crackers, no side can proceed with anything. Parliament in deadlock & disarray caused by electoral arithmetic, lack of enforceable party discipline & shithouse hedging. MPs keener to vote for what they're against than what they're for. It's the reverse of the 'Oxi' campaign - this is 'One Yes, Many Nos'.


----------



## andysays (Mar 14, 2019)

Vote to extend A50 passes!


----------



## Poot (Mar 14, 2019)

It's a vote to request a delay from the EU. Hmm.


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2019)

andysays said:


> Vote to extend A50 passes!


Such fun!


----------



## andysays (Mar 14, 2019)

gosub said:


> Such fun!


You won't believe what happens next...


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 14, 2019)

To be extended if May’s deal is supported?


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2019)

andysays said:


> You won't believe what happens next...


The EU, in a fit of pique over the fine job of taking back control our MP's have been doing... Decline to have an extension


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> To be extended if May’s deal is supported?


According to the BBC, three-month extension to be requested by May if May's deal is supported, a longer delay to be requested if it is rejected. EU has made noises that a much longer extension to basically start all over again might be granted by the EU if it is found that the UK doesn't yet know what it wants from brexit. I would strongly suspect that either extension would be granted by the EU.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 14, 2019)

Omg it’s going to be no deal isn’t it?


----------



## Argonia (Mar 14, 2019)

If the EU decline an extension then surely it's a no deal Brexit?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Omg it’s going to be no deal isn’t it?


I don't think so. It'll be May's deal with a 3-month delay or a delay of perhaps up to two years to start again. Those appear to be the things that could realistically be requested from the EU and be granted by them.


----------



## grit (Mar 14, 2019)

gosub said:


> The EU, in a fit of pique over the fine job of taking back control our MP's have been doing... Decline to have an extension



It seems like it should be a definitive yes, but fucking hell these days who knows.


----------



## grit (Mar 14, 2019)

.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 14, 2019)

May's deal hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell of passing


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

Declining an extension and so forcing either a no deal brexit or a withdrawal of A50 by the UK would be politically very damaging to the EU, which has tried to portray itself as the grown-up in this process. I really don't see it happening.


----------



## grit (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Declining an extension and so forcing either a no deal brexit or a withdrawal of A50 by the UK would be politically very damaging to the EU, which has tried to portray itself as the grown-up in this process. I really don't see it happening.



I think we are past that stage considering what the chaos looks like from outside the UK.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think so. It'll be May's deal with a 3-month delay or a delay of perhaps up to two years to start again. Those appear to be the things that could realistically be requested from the EU and be granted by them.


If may’s deal doesn’t pass and Parliament doesn’t come up with any alternatives - could the EU say no though?! I actually thought the Benn amendment might pass. I’m delusional.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

grit said:


> I think we are past that stage considering what the chaos looks like from outside the UK.


I don't. It's precisely because of that chaos that denying an extension will be politically difficult, if not impossible.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 14, 2019)

I am sure the EU would grant extensions, to void a 'no deal'.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> If may’s deal doesn’t pass and Parliament doesn’t come up with any alternatives - could the EU say no though?! I actually thought the Benn amendment might pass. I’m delusional.


Well that's the point of a much longer extension - essentially a postponement - to provide a 'period of reflection' for the UK (read: chance to change its mind). Reports today from EU correspondents that the practicalities of doing this (elections, etc) are already being discussed there.


----------



## Poot (Mar 14, 2019)

She's apparently going to ask the EU for an extension 'next week'. Maybe she has more important things to do in the meantime. I always like to clean the rugs and give the windows a good wash at this time of the year.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

Poot said:


> She's apparently going to ask the EU for an extension 'next week'. Maybe she has more important things to do in the meantime. I always like to clean the rugs and give the windows a good wash at this time of the year.


 

She's going to have a third go at her deal first.


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> If may’s deal doesn’t pass and Parliament doesn’t come up with any alternatives - could the EU say no though?! I actually thought the Benn amendment might pass. I’m delusional.


It got more votes than the official Labour amrndment


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 14, 2019)

If they go ahead with euro elections, will that be when the TIGgers make their stand? Don’t think they’ll get a better opportunity to make a bit of noise for themselves.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> If they go ahead with euro elections, will that be when the TIGgers make their stand? Don’t think they’ll get a better opportunity to make a bit of noise for themselves.


One idea for this is that with a long extension, the UK will simply keep its current MEPs on for an extra year rather than hold elections. They're not going to be a major obstacle, I don't think, although if brexit is then cancelled, they'll have to do something or other.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 14, 2019)

Bryant pulled, I think pretty much for the reasons I was stating (would take away ability of The Speaker to nix 3rd meaningful vote).


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2019)

Poot said:


> She's apparently going to ask the EU for an extension 'next week'. Maybe she has more important things to do in the meantime. I always like to clean the rugs and give the windows a good wash at this time of the year.


Always best to get ahead on that sort of thing so that you don't get stiffed on the deposit when you hand the keys back


----------



## Poot (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> She's going to have a third go at her deal first.


I think she should stick to the rugs and the windows.


----------



## Winot (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One idea for this is that with a long extension, the UK will simply keep its current MEPs on for an extra year rather than hold elections. They're not going to be a major obstacle, I don't think, although if brexit is then cancelled, they'll have to do something or other.



The EU can pay UK MEPs not to govern. A bit like farmers being paid not to farm under the CAP.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

Winot said:


> The EU can pay UK MEPs not to govern. A bit like farmers being paid not to farm under the CAP.


Farage gets another year's salary for doing fuck all. But no change there. He's always done fuck all for his MEP salary.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think so. It'll be May's deal with a 3-month delay or a delay of perhaps up to two years to start again. Those appear to be the things that could realistically be requested from the EU and be granted by them.


I thought the fly in the ointment was all EU 27 have to agree to an extension - one can veto.  Hence the fuss in the background about Brexiteers wooing the Italians, Hungarians and Poles to veto? (Poles have said no - but Italians and Hungarians more volatile) If there was a veto it would be a no deal on 29th?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 14, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> I thought the fly in the ointment was all EU 27 have to agree to an extension - one can veto.  Hence the fuss in the background about Brexiteers wooing the Italians, Hungarians and Poles to veto? (Poles have said no - but Italians and Hungarians more volatile) If there was a veto it would be a no deal on 29th?


or revoke a50
or mays deal vote 4


----------



## grit (Mar 14, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> I thought the fly in the ointment was all EU 27 have to agree to an extension - one can veto.  Hence the fuss in the background about Brexiteers wooing the Italians, Hungarians and Poles to veto? (Poles have said no - but Italians and Hungarians more volatile) If there was a veto it would be a no deal on 29th?



Only other option would be to revoke.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 14, 2019)

I guess EU countries could use the threat of a veto on a brexit extension as leverage against the UK  - in a kind of "now then - about Gibraltar" stlyee


----------



## Sue (Mar 14, 2019)

Poot said:


> She's apparently going to ask the EU for an extension 'next week'. Maybe she has more important things to do in the meantime. I always like to clean the rugs and give the windows a good wash at this time of the year.



It's like if you have something to do that you really, really don't want to do and so you end up doing all those other things that you don't want to do either but that are marginally less bad than the first thing. (Like cleaning the oven when you should be studying for an exam or something.)


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Farage gets another year's salary for doing fuck all. But no change there. He's always done fuck all for his MEP salary.



 

I doubt he'll try a reprise of "You're not laughing now, are you?"


----------



## Poot (Mar 14, 2019)

Sue said:


> It's like if you have something to do that you really, really don't want to do and so you end up doing all those other things that you don't want to do either but that are marginally less bad than the first thing. (Like cleaning the oven when you should be studying for an exam or something.)


I bet number 10 is fucking immaculate and the cat's been groomed and de-flead to within an inch of its life.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 14, 2019)

Were they (our politicians) always destined to make a complete hash of this or are they actually incompetent?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 14, 2019)

weltweit said:


> Were they (our politicians) always destined to make a complete hash of this or are they actually incompetent?



Both.


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2019)

Winot said:


> The EU can pay UK MEPs not to govern. A bit like farmers being paid not to farm under the CAP.


But we already pay our politicans not to govern. Or so it seems


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

weltweit said:


> Were they (our politicians) always destined to make a complete hash of this or are they actually incompetent?


Yeh both


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2019)

Poot said:


> I bet number 10 is fucking immaculate and the cat's been groomed and de-flead to within an inch of its life.


Well obviously.  Even Corbyn bought a suit when he thought he could end up running the country.


I for one welcome Larry, and think he'll do a grand job, as long as doesn't listen to his media handlers


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

So, losing the 'indicative votes' thing, when do Labour get the chance to insert their customs union version into the discussion? As an amendment to Shitshow 3, next week?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 14, 2019)

What will happen to Ranbay ’s countdown, now? - that’s what I want to know.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 14, 2019)

So - if the EU agree an extension for X amount of time - does that then have to go back to parliament?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> What will happen to Ranbay ’s countdown, now? - that’s what I want to know.


"infinity, infinity minus 1, infinity minus 2..."


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, losing the 'indicative votes' thing, when do Labour get the chance to insert their customs union version into the discussion? As an amendment to Shitshow 3, next week?



I'd have thought it could only ever come in after MV3 fails (if it came in as an amendment to MV3 it might spook enough of the DUP / ERG into voting for the deal); when it fails again it is then offered up by the two backbenchers as a rational proposal given that Parliament will not pass May's deal, May will not negotiate any other deal and the EU aren't going to let us kick the can down the road.  

If it gets to that point, I wouldn't be that surprised if the Tory payroll vote then voted for it and it passed by 300 or so; there is no other outcome to this that allows them to avoid blame for what follows.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

agricola said:


> I'd have thought it could only ever come in after MV3 fails (if it came in as an amendment to MV3 it might spook enough of the DUP / ERG into voting for the deal); when it fails again it is then offered up by the two backbenchers as a rational proposal given that Parliament will not pass May's deal, May will not negotiate any other deal and the EU aren't going to let us kick the can down the road.
> 
> If it gets to that point, I wouldn't be that surprised if the Tory payroll vote then voted for it and it passed by 300 or so; there is no other outcome to this that allows them to avoid blame for what follows.


I agree. There may perhaps be a small peek at a couple of possible futures since today's happenings. Next week either a) MV3 passes, and the UK leaves the EU some time in June this year under the maydeal, or b) MV3 fails, and there is a long delay, perhaps a year or more, which would have to mean a general election sooner rather than later, I would think, and the final end to May's excruciating death agonies, although I've given up on predicting that last bit.

If I were a Labour strategist I wouldn't be doing anything that might increase the chances of MV3 succeeding. Has to be first priority, I would have thought.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

weltweit said:


> Were they (our politicians) always destined to make a complete hash of this or are they actually incompetent?


they aren't incompetent, and it obscures the reality of just how finely balanced and difficult the political forces at work are here to say it is. 

It was always going to be difficult for May, even with a small Tory majority - that's why she called the snap election: she didn't want her hand strengthened with the EU, she wanted her hand strengthened with her own party. The way things have unfolded since demonstrate why.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> they aren't incompetent, and it obscures the reality of just how finely balanced and difficult the political forces at work are here to say it is.


I actually agree.  Sadly I'm still concerned they're gonna squeak it (the government I mean).


----------



## 8ball (Mar 14, 2019)

What we need now is a couple of weeks of continual votes about things that can’t happen.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

agricola said:


> I'd have thought it could only ever come in after MV3 fails (if it came in as an amendment to MV3 it might spook enough of the DUP / ERG into voting for the deal); when it fails again it is then offered up by the two backbenchers as a rational proposal given that Parliament will not pass May's deal, May will not negotiate any other deal and the EU aren't going to let us kick the can down the road.
> .


 I can see a logic to Labour holding off, but Corbyn's already facing charges of being frit, not stating his position. If we are down to MV3 and he still hasn't done, it gives her ammunition in the debate. There's a parallel issues that just as the government are running out of road, so are Labour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I can see a logic to Labour holding off, but Corbyn's already facing charges of being frit, not stating his position. If we are down to MV3 and he still hasn't done, it gives her ammunition in the debate. There's a parallel issues that just as the government are running out of road, so are Labour.


They'll go over beachy head together in a corvette


----------



## Supine (Mar 14, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, losing the 'indicative votes' thing, when do Labour get the chance to insert their customs union version into the discussion? As an amendment to Shitshow 3, next week?



Customs Union cannot simply be inserted into the agreement. It would require an extended period of further negotiation with the EU to replace the current deal. I think the EU would definitely go for this, but it wouldn't be a quick process.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

We'll see, but I think the loss of the indicative votes thing and the noises off about the DUP coming on board suggest this week could work out for May - _just_. It's now a test of nerve between May and the erg - and how many headbangers are willing to forego any kind of Brexit for 12 months (which would almost certainly include a general election, with the (outside) chance of a Corbyn victory). There'll be ultras and refuseniks, but I suspect by the end of the weekend she'll think she's close. She'll win by 2 or 3 (essentially, the likes of Hoey) or lose by no more than 20. 

It's now down to psychology and lizard brain venality. MPs might have felt freer to vote for their preferred option in an indicative vote, more so than a whipped one. Good showing for customs union might have created a bit of momentum. As it is the psychological pressure will be on the weaker minded tory brexiteers (and remainers) who voted against May 1 and 2.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 14, 2019)

Supine said:


> Customs Union cannot simply be inserted into the agreement. It would require an extended period of further negotiation with the EU to replace the current deal. I think the EU would definitely go for this, but it wouldn't be a quick process.


Yes, I know - and I agree the EU would go for it. I mean pass it here in the House of Commons and then take that to the EU. If we went bearing that gift, all processes and procedures would open up.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Supine said:


> Customs Union cannot simply be inserted into the agreement. It would require an extended period of further negotiation with the EU to replace the current deal. I think the EU would definitely go for this, but it wouldn't be a quick process.


The Norway group (Kinnock, Boles etc) proposed voting through the withdrawal agreement as is, but renegotiating the political declaration to include a Norway style deal - this is likely the model Labour will use I'd imagine. Details here. Something like this is the only thing that could get a majority IMO.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> they aren't incompetent, and it obscures the reality of just how finely balanced and difficult the political forces at work are here to say it is.
> 
> It was always going to be difficult for May, even with a small Tory majority - that's why she called the snap election: she didn't want her hand strengthened with the EU, she wanted her hand strengthened with her own party. The way things have unfolded since demonstrate why.


This.

The idea that the issue is due to an incompetent government is not just fallacious, it implicitly suggests that a _competent_ government (which looks like what) would be somehow beneficial.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

I'd love to know what a _competent_ prime minister or leader of the opposition would do differently or better. Probably they'd be a bit more polished at the dispatch box. That's literally it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> This.
> 
> The idea that the issue is due to an incompetent government is not just fallacious, it implicitly implies that a _competent_ government (which looks like what) would be somehow beneficial.


A competent government would have fucked things up in a different way


----------



## Flavour (Mar 14, 2019)

The idea of mays deal passing is somehow more terrifying than no deal, at this point


----------



## Winot (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'd love to know what a _competent_ prime minister or leader of the opposition would do differently or better. Probably they'd be a bit more polished at the dispatch box. That's literally it.



Someone was contrasting May’s approach yesterday with Varadkar’s (different job but still). Apparently after the Brexit ref he reached out to opposition and agreed a united approach which has pretty much held in place. 

Labour’s position and May’s are not so far apart. Had May looked for cross-party compromise from June 2016 she could have been home and dry by now.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'd love to know what a _competent_ prime minister or leader of the opposition would do differently or better.


Somehow magically brought about the desired outcome of the one complaining about incompetence.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 14, 2019)

Winot said:


> Labour’s position and May’s are not so far apart. Had May looked for cross-party compromise from June 2016 she could have been home and dry by now.


No she wouldn't. She would have destroyed her party and probably have been thrown out by them.

EDIT: In fact this is a wonderful example of fantasy scenarios I just mentioned.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'd love to know what a _competent_ prime minister or leader of the opposition would do differently or better. Probably they'd be a bit more polished at the dispatch box. That's literally it.


Propose a structured plan and timescale for brexit to the UK and EU parliaments?


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Winot said:


> Someone was contrasting May’s approach yesterday with Varadkar’s (different job but still). Apparently after the Brexit ref he reached out to opposition and agreed a united approach which has pretty much held in place.
> 
> Labour’s position and May’s are not so far apart. Had May looked for cross-party compromise from June 2016 she could have been home and dry by now.


But a cross party compromise wasn't hers to reach out for in 2016 - not without splitting the Conservative Party. Any other tory leader would have been up against the same. 

The hard reality of the makeup of the two parties, and the limitations that puts on their ability to maneuver isn't changed by a change in leader.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 14, 2019)

Surely another leader wouldn't have triggered A50 _quuuuuiiiiite _so early...? Before, y'know, they had any kind of a sniff of a plan.


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 14, 2019)

And another leader might know when to give up.Her own MPs are describing this deal of hers as a turd and yet here she is so arranging things as to have a third and possibly even a fourth go at shoving it down the throat of the Parliament.Its astonishing and (as Snow said) its not democratic.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Well something is going to get through, and May's deal is still a strong contender. 

I don't think they give a shit about democracy.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

What would 'giving up' look like?


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 14, 2019)

Is it too late for her to resign?No doubt Gove would take up the cudgels.


----------



## Supine (Mar 14, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Surely another leader wouldn't have triggered A50 _quuuuuiiiiite _so early...? Before, y'know, they had any kind of a sniff of a plan.



Apart from Corbyn who wanted to trigger it the day after the referendum, not realising preparation and a consensus on red lines and the negotiating strategy were needed before triggering. No politicians really showed any understanding of negotiation strategy tbh.


----------



## Wookey (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> What would 'giving up' look like?


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 14, 2019)

Supine said:


> Apart from Corbyn who wanted to trigger it the day after the referendum, not realising preparation and a consensus on red lines and the negotiating strategy were needed before triggering. No politicians really showed any understanding of negotiation strategy tbh.



That’s not what Corbyn said, bit of an urban myth.


----------



## Supine (Mar 14, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> That’s not what Corbyn said, bit of an urban myth.



I'm pretty sure i heard him say it. I was sleep deprived at the time but even so... Why do you think it a myth?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> What would 'giving up' look like?


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Don't get me wrong, they've absolutely made mistakes. Perhaps other leaders might have not made those particular mistakes - but the situation they are trying to control is so febrile that there would have been plenty of other things go wrong. And most importantly, the balance of power within each party would have remained the same.


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2019)

Supine said:


> Apart from Corbyn who wanted to trigger it the day after the referendum, not realising preparation and a consensus on red lines and the negotiating strategy were needed before triggering. No politicians really showed any understanding of negotiation strategy tbh.



Not sure how true that is.  The majority of Westminster politicians do not want to leave the EU; no amount of preparation time / consensus building / establishing negotiation strategy was ever going to change that.  

If we were going to declare article 50, it made more sense to do it that morning than at any time after that.  Certainly it made more sense than waiting six months, faffing about with an election, faffing about with Boris and then whatever we have seen these past four months has.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 14, 2019)

It's like the British state is not fit for purpose or something.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

Poi E said:


> It's like the British state is not fit for purpose or something.


totally this.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 14, 2019)

Poi E said:


> It's like the British state is not fit for purpose or something.



Depending on what you consider the purpose to be...


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 14, 2019)

./?


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 14, 2019)

This happened



it's total anarchy down there


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 14, 2019)

Cunts


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 14, 2019)

What’s been shown to be incompetant isn’t individual MP’s, but the entire system they’re stuck in.


----------



## grit (Mar 14, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> Is it too late for her to resign?



Yes, it could arguably make things worse.


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> What’s been shown to be incompetant isn’t individual MP’s, but the entire system they’re stuck in.



or maybe the whole thing was a bad idea


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 14, 2019)

So...if you wanted a no-deal brexit...this would be a good place to be.

Get May to go back to the EU and ask for a 3 or 4 month extension...EU says 'What for?'...UK says 'Cause we fucking want one, alright!'...EU says 'er...nah...say why and we'll talk about it'.

UK bickers for 2 weeks, leaves with no-deal and can blame the EU, accompanied by a pr blitz from the sun, mail, telegraph, express, bbc tv and radio, politicians, on-message commentators, astroturfers and some demonisation.

Just one of the possibilities, of course.	Another is abject humiliation.


----------



## A380 (Mar 14, 2019)




----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 14, 2019)

grit said:


> Yes, it could arguably make things worse.



if TM resigned tomorrow, then not sure it would help now.

the conservative party does not seem to have a formal 'deputy leader' role, although wikipedia suggests that david lidington, chancellor of the duchy of lancaster (wikipedia link in case your reaction was also 'who the heck's he?') is effectively deputy.  although think the incumbent PM tends to stay on until their party has elected a new leader.

how long would it take the party to elect a new leader?  wouldn't it be longer than 15 days?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 14, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> or maybe the whole thing was a bad idea


You don't say


----------



## Cid (Mar 14, 2019)

A380 said:


>




argh

Not sure can turn off.

e2a: which is appropriate.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 14, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> You don't say



WE’RE GONNA MAKE OUR OWN LAWS!!


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 14, 2019)

tis asking for more punishment by watching OT tonight


----------



## brogdale (Mar 14, 2019)

Take back control...to be able to go cap in hand to Brussels begging for time.

Utter shitshow.


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 14, 2019)

Tonight;s developments and the possible ramifications are blowing my mind.  If this wasn't so important it would make great drama.


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 14, 2019)

the sad part about this is large sections of the country are going to blame labour and remainers for the lack of progress in brexit

look it is a shit tory party that is the root cause of this bullshit


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 14, 2019)

> The Press Association has produced this helpful timeline of the last three days in Parliament – for those of us who are feeling somewhat lost.
> 
> *Tuesday*
> 
> ...



Wut


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 14, 2019)

twentythreedom said:


> Wut



It has blown my mind.  I can just about follow the twisted logic of the various Westminster tribes, but in a few years time these votes will be very hard to understand, but it will seem like an intense battle.


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 14, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> the sad part about this is large sections of the country are going to blame labour and remainers for the lack of progress in brexit



....well not necessarily.


----------



## Ax^ (Mar 14, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> ....well not necessarily.



I'll speak again after i go see my da

also watching OT at the moment and its been more than one comment about
people subverting democracy


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

5 sackings/resignations from the Labour front bench tonight after they broke the whip and voted against the second referendum amendment - cue speculation on a significant change in policy coming (which may explain today's lash-up with Alastair Campbell too).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2019)

Fuck's sake. it's supposed to be tory cabinet ministers who resign. 

Come on Rudd, ya daft racist.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2019)

They broke the whip and were asked to resign, which is standard in any party: if nothing else it signals that Corbyn has a firmer grip on his cabinet & party than may does...


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> They broke the whip and were asked to resign, which is standard in any party: if nothing else it signals that Corbyn has a firmer grip on his cabinet & party than may does...



At least some of them offered politely to resign. Which is how these things are supposed to be done, traditionally.


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> 5 sackings/resignations from the Labour front bench tonight after they broke the whip and voted against the second referendum amendment - cue speculation on a significant change in policy coming (which may explain today's lash-up with Alastair Campbell too).



Remind me. What was the second referendum amendment?


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 15, 2019)

What Labour policy change would it indicate?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 15, 2019)

Can see why some members of the suprastate are nervous of any A50 extension; all the time the U.K. retains full membership it holds the power of veto over EU decisions/budget etc. There’s the potential for threat of uncooperative disruption.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 15, 2019)

For all the spectacle and individual positioning, this week went exactly as expected with no surprises, Mays deal rejected, no deal rejected, extension requested.

The proper crunch still to come...no shocks yet, but it does give the impression when something not yet certain, predictable and meaningful does finally happen it's going to take a fair few MPs with it.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Can see why some members of the suprastate are nervous of any A50 extension; all the time the U.K. retains full membership it holds the power of veto over EU decisions/budget etc. There’s the potential for threat of uncooperative disruption.



There's a vry suggestion in the more sensible end of Tory leavers that the UK should revoke A50 and just veto everything within the EU until they get bored of us and offer a deal to leave.

It has some attractions...


----------



## Badgers (Mar 15, 2019)

I think a few months extension should get the job done well. After all it has all been positive for the last few months.


----------



## tommers (Mar 15, 2019)

Badgers said:


> I think a few months extension should get the job done well. After all it has all been positive for the last few months.


Just need that final push. Couple of little things to sort out and then we're good.


----------



## killer b (Mar 15, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> What Labour policy change would it indicate?


A full pivot to a second referendum I guess. I'm not sure I believe that tbh, but theres defo something in the air.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 15, 2019)

tommers said:


> Just need that final push. Couple of little things to sort out and then we're good.


Trivial details


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2019)

tommers said:


> Just need that final push. Couple of little things to sort out and then we're good.


Sounds like one of those awkward shits


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2019)

Badgers said:


> I think a few months extension should get the job done well. After all it has all been positive for the last few months.


Yeh it'll lull mps into a false sense of security right up to the time they're herded onto barges outside the Palace of Westminster


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 15, 2019)

Europa Shrugged.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> They broke the whip and were asked to resign, which is standard in any party: if nothing else it signals that Corbyn has a firmer grip on his cabinet & party than may does...



It strikes me as an odd time to break the whip.  I appreciate they may hold deep feelings about this but the vote was never ever going to pass and they were only expected to abstain rather than vote against their belief.

I agree there is probably something more to this.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 15, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Farage gets another year's salary for doing fuck all. But no change there. He's always done fuck all for his MEP salary.



What does any MEP actually do for that salary, except fuck all?


----------



## killer b (Mar 15, 2019)

Nigel Farage is Schrodingers Politician - both responsible for the most significant political event of post-war british history, and a do-nothing slacker.


----------



## alex_ (Mar 15, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> What does any MEP actually do for that salary, except fuck all?



Brexit: Nigel Farage only turned up to one of 42 EU fisheries committee meetings | Descrier News

Some of them attend the fisheries committee, not nige.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 15, 2019)

Just tried to look up the lead story about a 4th vote on Mays deal but the Indie website is a nightmare. Probably Indie nonsense






Have to say May wargamers have got it pretty much right so far...they were talking about a series of votes on Mays deal a few months ago, and it does seem to be coming to pass. Nothing written in stone, but this is all going to their plan so far...whether its a plan that will work is another matter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2019)

alex_ said:


> Brexit: Nigel Farage only turned up to one of 42 EU fisheries committee meetings | Descrier News
> 
> Some of them attend the fisheries committee, not nige.


he's had his chips anyway


----------



## killer b (Mar 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> theres defo something in the air.


further to this, here's Barry Gardiner and Gina Miller this morning: Labour & PV are defo coordinating.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 15, 2019)

^ reminds me of a Beautiful South lyric, 

Don't think of what we can and can't achieve
Perfection like this can't be guaranteed
Hearts get lost, lovers leave
Let's just see what friendship actually needs

And if ever you do wrong I'm right behind you
If ever you may sin, count me in
If that devil doubt should come to find you
Count on me and you don't count on him

If luck should quit this town
If fortune sails
If conversation breaks down
If love derails

I'll be that back up call
If all else fails
I'll swap this bed of roses
For a bed of nails


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> further to this, here's Barry Gardiner and Gina Miller this morning: Labour & PV are defo coordinating.


one, twice, three times a loser


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 15, 2019)

I see on the front cover of that 'I' that they've got an article on how your salary affects your relationship.

Yeah, being fucking skint will do that.  Not sure that's worth 65p to find out.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 15, 2019)

Excuse my ignorance - but can somebody explain why the DUP are happy to vote for a no deal & yet they also say that they want to preserve the constitutional integrity of the UK - doesn't no deal mean hard border between NI and ROI? Am I missing something?


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 15, 2019)

The DUP are pretty odd people who'd probably build a moat between them and the rest of Ireland given half a chance.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Excuse my ignorance - but can somebody explain why the DUP are happy to vote for a no deal & yet they also say that they want to preserve the constitutional integrity of the UK - doesn't no deal mean hard border between NI and ROI? Am I missing something?



no deal means a border of some description between NI and RoI, any deal that the EU will accept that doesn't involve a customs union between the EU and UK means a border of some form between NI and GB.

the DUP are being logical in their voting. thats not saying they are overly clever, but if you care about the things they care about, then you'd vote the way they have.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 15, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> The DUP are pretty odd people who'd probably build a moat between them and the rest of Ireland given half a chance.


So it's just the border in the Irish sea they don't want, they don't care if it's between NI and ROI? Wish they taught Irish history in scottish schools...


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 15, 2019)

kebabking said:


> the DUP are being logical in their voting. thats not saying they are overly clever, but if you care about the things they care about, then you'd vote the way they have.



Until they cave in on Tuesday.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 15, 2019)

kebabking said:


> no deal means a border of some description between NI and RoI, any deal that the EU will accept that doesn't involve a customs union between the EU and UK means a border of some form between NI and GB.
> 
> the DUP are being logical in their voting. thats not saying they are overly clever, but if you care about the things they care about, then you'd vote the way they have.


Right got it, thanks.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 15, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> So it's just the border in the Irish sea they don't want, they don't care if it's between NI and ROI? Wish they taught Irish history in scottish schools...



In fairness I don't think they are up for 'no deal' but they can't sign up to the existing deal.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Until they cave in on Tuesday.



desperate times...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 15, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> In fairness I don't think they are up for 'no deal' but they can't sign up to the existing deal.


tbh logic ought to dictate that they support remain, which is surely the best way to preserve their precious union. Logic doesn't seem to enter into it very often with the DUP.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 15, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Excuse my ignorance - but can somebody explain why the DUP are happy to vote for a no deal & yet they also say that they want to preserve the constitutional integrity of the UK - doesn't no deal mean hard border between NI and ROI? Am I missing something?


They oppose the backstop because it puts NI into a different relationship with EU from the rest of the UK. This doesn’t bear too much scrutiny: there are many differences from rUK they are happy with. But being Unionist and Euroskeptic, these are Big Issues for them.  So no backstop. And that makes them dislike the Deal. So that makes it illogical for them to take away no deal. Presumably because that would be preferable to the deal. Not necessarily optimal, but at least not the Deal.  

But they are also against a hard border. But presumably that’s not as bad as the backstop. It’s also a border with the Republic, which is preferable to a border with the rUK.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 15, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> They oppose the backstop because it puts NI into a different relationship with EU from the rest of the UK. This doesn’t bear too much scrutiny: there are many differences from rUK they are happy with. But being Unionist and Euroskeptic, these are Big Issues for them.  So no backstop. And that makes them dislike the Deal. So that makes it illogical for them to take away no deal. Presumably because that would be preferable to the deal. Not necessarily optimal, but at least not the Deal.
> 
> But they are also against a hard border. But presumably that’s not as bad as the backstop. It’s also a border with the Republic, which is preferable to a border with the rUK.


Maintaining peace in NI seems to be rather low in their list of priorities. One can only hope that they get a kicking in the polls for that at some point.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 15, 2019)

kebabking said:


> desperate times...



It certainly seems that way.



littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh logic ought to dictate that they support remain, which is surely the best way to preserve their precious union. Logic doesn't seem to enter into it very often with the DUP.



Yeah that ship has long since sailed indeed if it was ever in port.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Maintaining peace in NI seems to be rather low in their list of priorities. One can only hope that they get a kicking in the polls for that at some point.


and ideally not just in the polls


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 15, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Maintaining peace in NI seems to be rather low in their list of priorities. One can only hope that they get a kicking in the polls for that at some point.


It goes without saying that they’re cunts.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 15, 2019)

depsite all the (familiar) chatter and spin about the DUP coming onside - it looks like the wont budge. 

Brexit: DUP takes part in 'significant discussions'  - Politics live



> A DUP MP, Jim Shannon, has said that the party will not be changing its minds on May’s deal unless there are legally binding changes to ensure that the backstop is limited.
> 
> “That is what we have been asking for over the past two years to be honest with you and we can’t understand why the government has not been able to understand that,” he told the BBC’s World at One.
> 
> He warned however: “If nothing has changed then our opinion has not changed.”



I suspect the same will be true of many of the ERG.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 15, 2019)

DUP must be dreading the time they don't make front page news.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 15, 2019)

I hope there's an amendment which says WE WILL NOT VOTE ON THIS CRAP BILL EVER AGAIN AFTER THIS TIME


----------



## Argonia (Mar 15, 2019)

Why did the Bryant amendment get pulled? That would have put a final end to May's shitshow.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 15, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Why did the Bryant amendment get pulled? That would have put a final end to May's shitshow.



Optics I imagine.  The travel of direction is opposition to the deal reducing by the day.  If the deal is defeated again I suppose it'll reappear.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 15, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> depsite all the (familiar) chatter and spin about the DUP coming onside - it looks like the wont budge.
> 
> Brexit: DUP takes part in 'significant discussions'  - Politics live
> 
> ...



It would be a dismal climb down if the DUP do cave in.  Not saying they won't but they certainly know how to give it the big one in a negotiation.

ETA: I wonder if May will treat us to another stage show at the start of next week?  Flying out to Strasbourg on Monday night to get the necessary concessions which then turn out to be a change of font.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 15, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> It would be a dismal climb down if the DUP do cave in.  Not saying they won't but they certainly know how to give it the big one in a negotiation.
> 
> ETA: I wonder if May will treat us to another stage show at the start of next week?  Flying out to Strasbourg on Monday night to get the necessary concessions which then turn out to be a change of font.


Yeah, changed to Comic Sans.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 15, 2019)

May's carbon footprint must be through the roof and for what?


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 15, 2019)

Argonia said:


> May's carbon footprint must be through the roof and for what?



Not as much as Liams Fox's.  He's had a 2 and a half year round the world jolly and he's come back with trade deals from Switzerland, the Faroe Islands and Rockall.


----------



## agricola (Mar 15, 2019)

Argonia said:


> May's carbon footprint must be through the roof and for what?



Amusement and / or employing journalists and commentators.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 15, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Why did the Bryant amendment get pulled? That would have put a final end to May's shitshow.


Because the House wants the government to sort things. This amendment would have started moving the onus onto the House. That might be a future move for May, but why take the responsibility off her before you have to?


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 15, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Why did the Bryant amendment get pulled? That would have put a final end to May's shitshow.


Possibly to get out of the way of any veto by Bercow.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 15, 2019)

The DUP are trying to get another bung aren't they?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 15, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> The DUP are trying to get another bung aren't they?


Latest pictures from the hallway of their party HQ...


----------



## Wilf (Mar 15, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> The DUP are trying to get another bung aren't they?


Philip Hammond has joined the talks apparently, so yes. He's a silly cunt, just 2 days ago talking about reaching out to Labour for something like a customs union (in practice) and now pushing through the opposite.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Philip Hammond has joined the talks apparently, so yes. He's a silly cunt, just 2 days ago talking about reaching out to Labour for something like a customs union (in practice) and now pushing through the opposite.



Not necessarily a silly cunt - when he's talking to the DUP they know he's talking to Labour, and that he might be getting a better offer - so they will increase their offer.

I'd rather Hammond was doing it than May...


----------



## weltweit (Mar 15, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Not as much as Liams Fox's.  He's had a 2 and a half year round the world jolly and he's come back with trade deals from Switzerland, the Faroe Islands and Rockall.


Still, that should adequately replace future lost EU business, good job!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Not as much as Liams Fox's.  He's had a 2 and a half year round the world jolly and he's come back with trade deals from Switzerland, the Faroe Islands and Rockall.


He's come back with a trade deal with south georgia too, we send them our former people and they get the biggest and best canal network in the south atlantic


----------



## weltweit (Mar 15, 2019)

So, they are considering delaying Brexit until the end of May.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 15, 2019)

weltweit said:


> So, they are considering delaying Brexit until the end of May.



Do you mean the end of May or the end of May?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Do you mean the end of May or the end of May?


Either suits me


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 15, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Not necessarily a silly cunt - when he's talking to the DUP they know he's talking to Labour, and that he might be getting a better offer - so they will increase their offer.
> 
> I'd rather Hammond was doing it than May...



As long as they don’t send Grayling to negotiate, otherwise they’d probably end up with £10 billion, Gibraltar and several of the Queen’s great grandchildren.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 15, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Excuse my ignorance - but can somebody explain why the DUP are happy to vote for a no deal & yet they also say that they want to preserve the constitutional integrity of the UK - doesn't no deal mean hard border between NI and ROI? Am I missing something?


Well you see...they really, really hate catholics...especially Irish or Vatican based ones, they really, really consider themselves british (I really can't emphasise this enough..or the first point) ...serious stuff...they want trouble, they live by it and feed and literally grow on it.  They don't even think that most brits are british enough...not quick enough with the ultra-violence and 'justice', you see.  And give them their due...very good at it too. Ever hear the saying 'could cause trouble in an empty room'?  That's them. 

And now they have catholics, irish and eu people to hate.   Of all the fuck ups brexit has brought...breathing life into those cunts is the most incredibly stupid of them all.

Their influence was shrinking before this.

Any result is good for the DUP when you think about it...deal, no deal, remain.  And now they've got lots of money as well


----------



## killer b (Mar 15, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Their influence was shrinking before this.


they increased their vote share by 10% at the last general election.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> they increased their vote share by 10% at the last general election.


Share of vote/population ratio?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 15, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Their influence was shrinking before this.





DexterTCN said:


> Share of vote/population ratio?



Don't clutch at straws to try and justify it, this is not correct. They were increasing their influence prior to this; they are arguably losing influence as a result of what's happening now. 

This is a bit like when people said that voting Leave would lead to permanent Tory/UKIP governments when in fact UKIP have now disappeared in the polls and the Tories could well split.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 15, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Don't clutch at straws to try and justify it, this is not correct. They were increasing their influence prior to this; ...


What do you mean by prior?


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 15, 2019)

Right then...pretty much what's going on


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 15, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> What do you mean by prior?



Prior to providing confidence and supply to the Tories.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 15, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Prior to providing confidence and supply to the Tories.


What's that in dates?

You know...the main difference (mostly) between remainers and brexiters is concern.   Whether it's the right wing tories or whoever.

Doesn't matter the possible consequences, doesn't matter the odds, the job losses, the concern about medicine or food or cost of living or deportation.   It's about a tribal concept of the greater good.  (the greater good)

My post was a concern about violence flaring in a place that you really, from experience, don't want violence to flair...and it's already apparently happening.

And you're just talking absolute shite.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 15, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> What do you mean by prior?


SF's right. DUP has usurped the UUP entirely in Westminster since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, and is now the biggest party in the NI Assembly, again taking over from the UUP. It was a pretty remorseless rise for 20 years prior to 2017.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 15, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> What's that in dates?



After the 2017 election. 




DexterTCN said:


> You know...the main difference (mostly) between remainers and brexiters is concern.   Whether it's the right wing tories or whoever.
> 
> Doesn't matter the possible consequences, doesn't matter the odds, the job losses, the concern about medicine or food or cost of living or deportation.   It's about a tribal concept of the greater good.  (the greater good)
> 
> ...



No, what you've just posted is absolute shite. 

And if you actually cared about Northern Ireland you'd know that the increase in sectarian violence is linked with the increase in support for the DUP and began before the Brexit referendum. 

Like a lot of nasty stuff that's happened since 2008.

But you don't care.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 15, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> SF's right. DUP has usurped the UUP entirely in Westminster since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, and is now the biggest party in the NI Assembly, again taking over from the UUP. It was a pretty remorseless rise for 20 years prior to 2017.



True - in part because the GFA institutionalised sectarian politics.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 15, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> True - in part because the GFA institutionalised sectarian politics.


Yes, indeed. Complete with bollocks about protecting 'Ulster Scots' heritage and its essentially invented 'language'. The two parties that agreed it were both basically destroyed by it. Not that I'd call the UUP 'moderate', but they're not as headbangy as the DUP. It's a rotten agreement in many ways, but it has brought peace. Precious little truth or reconciliation, but peace.


----------



## mx wcfc (Mar 16, 2019)

Richard Corbett (@RCorbettMEP) on Twitter


----------



## mx wcfc (Mar 16, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> Richard Corbett (@RCorbettMEP) on Twitter


That didn't work very well.  follow the twatter link and scroll down to the beer mats thing.

sorry, rubbish at computers.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 16, 2019)

This is 'great' Britain


----------



## Badgers (Mar 16, 2019)

No long Brexit delay without election of British MEPs, says leaked paper | Brexit | The Guardian


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 16, 2019)

It's Guardian bait click. Where is this leaked document coming from? 

It's one legal opinion at odds with many others and with precedent (MEPs have been appointed to position without elections on a number of occasions previously).


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> It's Guardian bait click. Where is this leaked document coming from?
> 
> It's one legal opinion at odds with many others and with precedent (MEPs have been appointed to position without elections on a number of occasions previously).


Maybe, but it makes complete sense from the perspective of the suprastate.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 16, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Maybe, but it makes complete sense from the perspective of the suprastate.


Why?

I can't see how it's in the interests of the EU to force the UK to hold elections for MEPs, when they could just roll over the current MEPs or use some other method to allocate them.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Why?


On one level on the basis of its constitution & legitimacy etc....and on another of helping May to scare the nutjobs into line to back their deal.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 16, 2019)

brogdale said:


> On one level on the basis of its constitution & legitimacy etc....and on another of helping May to scare the nutjobs into line to back their deal.


On legitimacy I really don't see a concern the EU makes up its _legitimacy_ as it goes along. As for helping May I would have thought elections would do the opposite, they would be a opportunity for the headbangers to give the EU a kicking.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2019)

brogdale said:


> On one level on the basis of its constitution & legitimacy etc....and on another of helping May to scare the nutjobs into line to back their deal.


Nah. It's not exactly an affront to democracy to just give the current lot an extra year. And given that the EU would love brexit to be cancelled or at the very least to be softened what better way to open up that possibility than a really long extension.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> On legitimacy I really don't see a concern the EU makes up its _legitimacy_ as it goes along. As for helping May I would have thought elections would do the opposite, they would be a opportunity for the headbangers to give the EU a kicking.


Obviously a matter of speculation, but I really don’t see the Tory headbangers would see a 4 year wait ( with elections) as anything other than a major defeat/reversal of the referendum outcome.
As for the suprastate, why would they want those who have convinced their electorate of the institution’s political illegitimacy to further undermine it?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Obviously a matter of speculation, but I really don’t see the Tory headbangers would see a 4 year wait ( with elections) as anything other than a major defeat/reversal of the referendum outcome.
> As for the suprastate, why would they want those who have convinced their electorate of the institution’s political illegitimacy to further undermine it?


Is a 4 year wait a possibility? I agree that that would be seen as, and really would be, effectively a cancellation, but would the UK ask for that?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Is a 4 year wait a possibility? I agree that that would be seen as, and really would be, effectively a cancellation, but would the UK ask for that?


The U.K. can ask for what it likes...what it’s offered is another matter.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 16, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Obviously a matter of speculation, but I really don’t see the Tory headbangers would see a 4 year wait ( with elections) as anything other than a major defeat/reversal of the referendum outcome.


Which is why it would energise them, Farage would love to run on such a message. Sorry but I think the idea the EU elections would strengthen May's hand is mad, you'd have the vote for the traditional parties squeezed between pro-EU wankers on the one hand and no deal wankers on the other.

As for the political legitimacy of the EU (ha ha) I don't believe not electing MEPs would do anything to that. They don't elect MEPs mid-term if a new country joins. They can easily come up with some legal justification. In fact in the follow up piece (in the last sentence of the article) the Guardian actually goes further with some legal advice advising that no UK MEPs are even required.


> [A Labour MEP] revealed that the European parliament’s legal services department had advised MEPs that suggestions the parliament would be rendered invalid if the UK was not represented were incorrect.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 16, 2019)

Will/can the EU ask for a second referendum as part of an extension agreement?


----------



## killer b (Mar 16, 2019)

No/no.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 16, 2019)

It can ask for the moon on a stick, but it won't. And it won't ask for a 2nd referendum


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Which is why it would energise them, Farage would love to run on such a message. Sorry but I think the idea the EU elections would strengthen May's hand is mad, you'd have the vote for the traditional parties squeezed between pro-EU wankers on the one hand and no deal wankers on the other.
> 
> As for the political legitimacy of the EU (ha ha) I don't believe not electing MEPs would do anything to that. They don't elect MEPs mid-term if a new country joins. They can easily come up with some legal justification. In fact in the follow up piece (in the last sentence of the article) the Guardian actually goes further with some legal advice advising that no UK MEPs are even required.


As I said, speculation innit?
I’m just not convinced by yours...I reckon the Tory nutjobs would regard any further involvement with the political representation of the suprastate as nothing but defeat, betrayal and a reversal of their project. If the 27 offer up a united position on this, I can see it forcing a substantial number into the May deal division.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 16, 2019)

brogdale said:


> As I said, speculation innit?
> I’m just not convinced by yours...I reckon the Tory nutjobs would regard any further involvement with the political representation of the suprastate as nothing but defeat, betrayal and a reversal of their project. If the 27 offer up a united position on this, I can see it forcing a substantial number into the May deal division.


_Involvement_ yes I think there's a strong chance (despite that advice I quoted above) that the EU will insist on UK MEPs in the Euro parliament. But insisting on elections would open a can of worms that neither they nor May want.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 16, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> _Involvement_ yes I think there's a strong chance (despite that advice I quoted above) that the EU will insist on UK MEPs in the Euro parliament. But insisting on elections would open a can of worms that neither they nor May want.


This last bit is the key point. The EU doesn't want that headache, And they're already discussing how to avoid it. Also the idea that somehow they *can't* do certain things is just silly. Course they can.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This last bit is the key point. The EU doesn't want that headache, And they're already discussing how to avoid it. Also the idea that somehow they *can't* do certain things is just silly. Course they can.


If this does end up as the suprastate’s condition on an extension, it wouldn’t need to be their desired outcome; it’s merely one means of driving the nutjobs into the aye lobby to get their WA deal through. That, combined with more DUP bribes and a promise that she’ll stand down within weeks, should get the numbers in MV3 or 4.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 16, 2019)

Think he will still be in his role for long?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 16, 2019)

brogdale said:


> If this does end up as the suprastate’s condition on an extension, it wouldn’t need to be their desired outcome; it’s merely one means of driving the nutjobs into the aye lobby to get their WA deal through. That, combined with more DUP bribes and a promise that she’ll stand down within weeks, should get the numbers in MV3 or 4.


But why would elections be more effective at that then simply extending the current terms? EU elections would do the opposite or narrowing the options down, they'd give a chance for every loon and egotist to have a go at May's deal.

I can see the EU (and the UK gov) keeping the idea of election alive as a stick. But when it comes down to it why would they not choose the easy option.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 16, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> But why would elections be more effective at that then simply extending the current terms? EU elections would do the opposite or narrowing the options down, they'd give a chance for every loon and egotist to have a go at May's deal.
> 
> I can see the EU (and the UK gov) keeping the idea of election alive as a stick. But when it comes down to it why would they not choose the easy option.


Thinking like a suprastate...this is not about making anything easy for the secession state, but merely effecting their desired outcome...the WA that they agreed to.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 16, 2019)

Eventually after brexit there is supposed to be two different systems with the UK on one side and the EU on another.
Or maybe the systems will be exactly the same?
If there are two systems with some kind of demarcation between them, then unless the line of demarcation is controlled in some way the EU and the UK remain joined and manifestly there is no brexit.
Unless 'leave' actually means remain joined.
The line of demarcation on the island of Ireland is some 320 miles long, nobody can say how that is going to be controlled.
Brexit won't happen because of the land border.
I agree with comments above about the DUP being a bunch of see you next Tuesday's. It is amazing that UK politics is in the hands of those vile nutcases.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 16, 2019)

philosophical said:


> Brexit won't happen because of the land border.


If Brexit doesn’t happen it’ll be because of political arithmetic and balances of ideology within the political classes.

The reason that the EU (and I mean the EU rather than the EEC) exists is that capital doesn’t like capital controls. Capital in its money form has to be able to cross borders easily. When Bretton Woods broke down at the start of the 70s, it was because the requirements of capital in Western Europe, North America and Japan had changed. Instead of capital-as-production moving around the globe, setting up new production bases, the needs of capital in these nation states was starting to be that finance needed to be able to move more quickly. This is the beginning of the circumstances that grew into the neoliberal project.

Today, capital in the form of both money and production is moving hugely out of China. Note that China not only does not have the type of border with the rest of the world that NI currently has with the Republic, but  it doesn’t even have the same political system.

Be in no doubt that the needs of capital will prevail, and the way that capital crosses the border between NI and the Republic, Brexit or not, will be resolved for capital.

This is not to diminish the problems that exist for individuals of the border issue. But if Brexit is stopped it will not be *because* of the land border. Capital in all its forms crosses borders all over the globe. The outcome of Brexit is going to be down to what accommodation European neoliberalism (in the UK and in the EU) can reach an accommodation with neoconservatism in the UK.  It still looks (although I have no crystal ball) at the moment like that will happen with a form of Brexit in the mix. But if it does not, that won’t be *because there’s a land border*, it’ll be because the accommodation between neoliberalism and UK neoconservativism couldn’t agree on a form for Brexit.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 18, 2019)

I would expect the lunatic fringes to fall into line. I doubt they've the bottle to stop Brexit when all is said and done. Not that I have much of a clue. But for that reason I reckon May's deal could well pass. They've more to lose by the party falling apart surely. It does seem ridiculous though. So maybe not.


----------



## collectordave (Mar 18, 2019)

Three days of brexit bliss ended. Tele and internet now fixed.

Is britain still in the same situation, trying to invent excuses why the EU is to blame for the current mess?

Have any clear excuses for asking for an extension been put forward?


----------



## Poi E (Mar 18, 2019)

Yes, the state is still floundering, drowning in a sea of competing nationalisms.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 18, 2019)

I've been trying to work out the maths, and I reckon if May can convince all 75 Tory rebels from last week and the DUP her deal would pass with a few votes to spare. That about right? 

But then, do Remain Tory MP's who have previously voted for the deal cease doing so, with a lengthy extension to the whole process and a golden opportunity to boot the can miles and miles down the road? 

I find it hard to believe a deal which was voted down so heavily twice would fail, but then on the other hand there's a chance some Brexiteers will see it as this or nothing. But then they might still prefer nothing.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 18, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I've been trying to work out the maths, and I reckon if May can convince all 75 Tory rebels from last week and the DUP her deal would pass with a few votes to spare. That about right?
> 
> But then, do Remain Tory MP's who have previously voted for the deal cease doing so, with a lengthy extension to the whole process and a golden opportunity to boot the can miles and miles down the road?
> 
> I find it hard to believe a deal which was voted down so heavily twice would fail, but then on the other hand there's a chance some Brexiteers will see it as this or nothing. But then they might still prefer nothing.


With an extension on the horizon many  who previously voted for the Deal may now think there’s time to reach a better deal. There’s no guarantee for May that all who were in before will stay in.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 18, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> With an extension on the horizon many  who previously voted for the Deal may now think there’s time to reach a better deal. There’s no guarantee for May that all who were in before will stay in.



That makes sense to me but so many people keep saying that May's deal will get through in the end I'm doubting myself. 

I also think that as far as the power struggle inside the Tory party goes, a lot of Remain Tories will think "fuck this, some of us voted twice for May's Brexit deal and the ERG still wouldn't compromise" and will no longer care quite so much about trying to find compromise.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 18, 2019)

Hearing the awful clatter of previously indignant Tory die-hards re-chiseling their  principles to suit the circumstances, I'd say that May's strategy of driving full pelt towards the wall until everybody else blinks has been pretty much vindicated at this point.

Whether it will be enough, I'm not sure...


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 18, 2019)

yeah - ive not seen much talk about remain mps who voted for the deal - but yeah - you'd think that now "no deal" is off the table,  some of them would now oppose it as a way of getting a softer brexit or no brexit it at all.

Doesn't sound like she can pass it anyway -  looks like the vote wont happen this week.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 18, 2019)

Presumably a lot of stuff will get negotiated/argued about in the transition phase, so still potentially a chance to push for a permanent customs union (or no deal) during that period. Could be years of this shit ahead of us.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 18, 2019)

It’s getting like a DFS sale!
Though hopefully should end Easter Monday.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 18, 2019)

This certainly suggests May's deal won't get through. 

Passing Brexit deal needs 'a lot more work'


----------



## ska invita (Mar 18, 2019)

so what WILL happen this week? Anything? Or just more clock winding?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 18, 2019)

ska invita said:


> so what WILL happen this week? Anything? Or just more clock winding?



I assume the extension has to be agreed this week?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 18, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I assume the extension has to be agreed this week?


Ah yes, I guess that ball is in the EU court....waiting on the conditions of that


----------



## A380 (Mar 18, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Ah yes, I guess that ball is in the EU court....waiting on the conditions of that


I don’t think we’ve even asked them yet, given that the Tory party can’t work out what they want to ask for.

Bit like the whole of Brexit in microcosm there...


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2019)

Bercow is going to make a statement at 3:30, which could be a ruling on whether May's deal can be put to a vote again.


----------



## MrCurry (Mar 18, 2019)

If the answer were that there’s no reason not to vote on it again, would the speaker even need to make a statement about it?


----------



## editor (Mar 18, 2019)




----------



## Wilf (Mar 18, 2019)

Peston - twitter via guardian feed - suggesting mv3 won't be put to the vote till next week. Fucking astonishing.

Have to see whether Bercow's ruling has any impact on that also.

Edit: he _does_ seem to be saying it can be put to the commons again.


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2019)

He's milking it a bit.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 18, 2019)

If there are any chlorinated pigeons left, the cat is at least wandering over towards them.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 18, 2019)

Does rather beg the question, why did he accept _MV2_?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 18, 2019)

The speaker has spoken - a motion that has been voted down before, can not be brought back in the same session of Parliament, if hasn't been substantially changed, and this is a principle dating but to 1604, upheld many times during the 1800s, 1900s & as recently as 2000. 

MV2 had substantial changes, but they can't bring it back again for MV3, unless there's more changes.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 18, 2019)

What were the differences between v1 and v2?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 18, 2019)

Here's hoping it gets really nasty and the Tories have a go at removing Bercow, constitutional crisis, Farage's army speed up their advance on Westminster etc All good.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2019)

ska invita said:


> What were the differences between v1 and v2?


v2 came with an extra clarification that any reassurances from the EU regarding the backstop are not legally binding.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2019)

ska invita said:


> What were the differences between v1 and v2?


you can hear v1 coming: if you hear the engine cut out, seek cover immediately
the v2 arrives with no warning whatsoever


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Here's hoping it gets really nasty


it's all been really pleasant and good humoured thus far


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2019)

Guardian running with this as headline atm. BBC pretending it isn't happening.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The speaker has spoken - a motion that has been voted down before, can not be brought back in the same session of Parliament, if hasn't been substantially changed, and this is a principle dating but to 1604, upheld many times during the 1800s, 1900s & as recently as 2000.
> 
> MV2 had substantial changes, but they can't bring it back again for MV3, unless there's more changes.


----------



## Santino (Mar 18, 2019)

I was hoping May would burst in with some poleaxe-carrying guards and try to arrest someone.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 18, 2019)

ha ha - shes fucked then no? Have to get a longer extension from the EU27. Gives the tory party some much needed time to tear themselves apart without having to worry about the brexit deadline.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 18, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Here's hoping it gets really nasty and the Tories have a go at removing Bercow, constitutional crisis, Farage's army speed up their advance on Westminster etc All good.



The gait has risen from a trot to a steady canter.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> ha ha - shes fucked then no? Have to get a longer extension from the EU27. Gives the tory party some much needed time to tear themselves apart without having to worry about the brexit deadline.


She asks for a three-month extension in order to get her deal through, then brings it back on the basis that this is now a different deal cos the EU agreed to an extension only on condition that this deal passes? 

I'm reaching here, but what else can she do?


----------



## Winot (Mar 18, 2019)

This is hilarious.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 18, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> She asks for a three-month extension in order to get her deal through, then brings it back on the basis that this is now a different deal cos the EU agreed to an extension only on condition that this deal passes?
> 
> I'm reaching here, but what else can she do?



Strictly?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Strictly?


She'd get voted off first but keep coming back, week after week.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 18, 2019)

Bercow just saying a new motion would implicitly require changes in the actual agreement with the EU. If that's the case, May is either fucked or has to get into genuine long term negotiations with the EU, which they will probably refuse. Crazy stuff.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 18, 2019)

Bercow is very good viewing at the moment.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 18, 2019)

Have to admit I'm surprised. I thought there might be some noise for a MV4 but I didn't see Bercow blocking MV3 (of course he's not done so yet).


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 18, 2019)

PM's office is not happy that they didn't have any notice of what the Speaker was going to say, oh dear.


----------



## andysays (Mar 18, 2019)

Bercow: Ministers cannot re-submit 'same proposition' on Brexit

Mr Bercow says the government cannot "legitimately" re-submit a Brexit proposal to the Commons which is "the same, or substantially the same" as that rejected by MPs earlier this month.

However he says if ministers were to submit a proposition which is "neither the same nor substantially the same", then this would be in order.

He says his ruling should not be seen as his "last word on the subject", but as an indication of "the test the government must meet in order for me to rule that a third meaningful vote can legitimately be held in this parliamentary session".


----------



## ska invita (Mar 18, 2019)

Something cant come back to the house  in the same parliamentary session....doesnt a new session being after easter?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 18, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Something cant come back to the house  in the same parliamentary session....doesnt a new session being after easter?



That is a recess, I understand the current parliamentary session started in June 2017 and finishes in the summer of this year.


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Something cant come back to the house  in the same parliamentary session....doesnt a new session being after easter?


After the next queens speech isn't it? Which may cancelled this year iirc.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 18, 2019)

Parliamentary sessions and sittings
"spring to spring" according that link
?


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 18, 2019)

<deleted because of ska invita  's post at foot of previous page  >


----------



## marty21 (Mar 18, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It’s getting like a DFS sale!
> Though hopefully should end Easter Monday.


May manages to buy a sofa at full price


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2019)

Cool. The success or failure of brexit depends on the the serendipity of the Full Moon.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 18, 2019)

I might be starting to sound like a bit of a naysayer, which probably just reflects a bit of nervousness about the whole thing, but does anyone else think this also has the chance of re-galvanising and unifying the tories?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2019)

Unifying no chance. The pro-EU lot despise the ERG and vice versa.


----------



## pesh (Mar 18, 2019)

daydreams about how much molten zinc it would take


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 18, 2019)

marty21 said:


> May manages to buy a sofa at full price


Only to find it has a hole in it and she's lost the receipt.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 18, 2019)

Current parliamentary two year session as opposed to parliamentary sittings. Current one began June 21st 2017 runs until summer 2019.
Can’t link at moment
House of Commons recess dates


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 18, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It’s getting like a DFS sale!
> Though hopefully should end Easter Monday.


I think it might end up a bit more like that time they tried to do a discount opening at IKEA in Tottenham:


----------



## Wilf (Mar 18, 2019)

Bercow's a self important show pony with some (allegedly) nasty behaviours. I'm tempted to compliment him for sticking to his guns over Brexit, but actually this is really just him having another opportunity to do more show pony stuff. Still …


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2019)

.


Wilf said:


> Bercow's a self important show pony with some (allegedly) nasty behaviours. I'm tempted to compliment him for sticking to his guns over Brexit, but actually this is really just him having another opportunity to do more show pony stuff. Still …


his cries of 'ooordeeeer' are so theatrical I have taken to imagining he's starving and shouting for hors douvres


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 18, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Unifying no chance. The pro-EU lot despise the ERG and vice versa.


I know that the underlying divisions will remain.  I'm just concerned this will give them something to rally around.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 18, 2019)

Loving the niggle between Loathsome and Bercow.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2019)

Farage's march is passing through my town apparently.
Google seems to have no details as to when and the route, just lots about the "People's Vote" march.

Bet he's hopping mad.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 18, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Bercow's a self important show pony with some (allegedly) nasty behaviours. I'm tempted to compliment him for sticking to his guns over Brexit, but actually this is really just him having another opportunity to do more show pony stuff. Still …



I agree with you completely about Bercow being a show-pony, allegedly a bully too, so no defence of him from me here.

But surely just now he *really is* doing the Speaker's job  -- interpreting/applying parliamentary rules/precedents, etc. He's not doing this _just_ to show off!


----------



## 2hats (Mar 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Bet he's hopping mad.


It will take him till the end of a several year extension to brexit to finish it that way.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 18, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Current parliamentary two year session as opposed to parliamentary sittings. Current one began June 21st 2017 runs until summer 2019.
> Can’t link at moment
> House of Commons recess dates


Lol

Thanks


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2019)

2hats said:


> It will take him till the end of a several year extension to brexit to finish it that way.



He's only walking (hopping) a couple of little bits of the route anyway.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Farage's march is passing through my town apparently.



Have you got plenty of eggs?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 18, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> I agree with you completely about Bercow being a show-pony, allegedly a bully too, so no defence of him from me here.
> 
> But surely just now he really is doing the Speaker's job  -- interpreting parliamentary rules/precedents, etc. He's not doing this _just_ to show off!


Yes, I think that's true, it's just that with narcissists, it's hard to tell where one thing stops and the other starts. But yes, his ruling should really be seen as fairly uncontroversial. I suppose it only looks controversial in the sense that he's actually done it an not crumbled.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 18, 2019)

I really think it's time the people of England convened a parliament.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 18, 2019)

Apparently Bercow has admitted they could bring it back by suspending the standing order that stops repeat bills. If the Tories whip their MPs to do that we really will be in an odd place. Might even lead to Bercow resigning.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 18, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Apparently Bercow has admitted they could bring it back by suspending the standing order that stops repeat bills. If the Tories whip their MPs to do that we really will be in an odd place. Might even lead to Bercow resigning.



That’s him and May lining up for Strictly then!


----------



## Winot (Mar 18, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Apparently Bercow has admitted they could bring it back by suspending the standing order that stops repeat bills. If the Tories whip their MPs to do that we really will be in an odd place. Might even lead to Bercow resigning.



Would they need a majority for that? Might have trouble if so.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 18, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Apparently Bercow has admitted they could bring it back by suspending the standing order that stops repeat bills. If the Tories whip their MPs to do that we really will be in an odd place. Might even lead to Bercow resigning.



They'd have to be bloody sure they were going to win the vote if they started to suspend standing orders.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> She asks for a three-month extension in order to get her deal through, then brings it back on the basis that this is now a different deal cos the EU agreed to an extension only on condition that this deal passes?
> 
> I'm reaching here, but what else can she do?


Hari kiri


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Farage's march is passing through my town apparently.
> Google seems to have no details as to when and the route, just lots about the "People's Vote" march.
> 
> Bet he's hopping mad.


The only details I've been able to find about it since Saturday is on the 'led by donkeys' Twitter feed, which has regular clips uploaded of the march trudging through north-eastern industrial estates in the rain.


----------



## Supine (Mar 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Farage's march is passing through my town apparently.
> Google seems to have no details as to when and the route, just lots about the "People's Vote" march.
> 
> Bet he's hopping mad.



Route is here. Take eggs. 
Route — March to Leave


----------



## agricola (Mar 18, 2019)

I wonder if this ruling was why TIG rushed ahead with that second referendum vote, despite almost unanimous opposition from the wider People's Vote crowd?


----------



## killer b (Mar 18, 2019)

agricola said:


> I wonder if this ruling was why TIG rushed ahead with that second referendum vote, despite almost unanimous opposition from the wider People's Vote crowd?


Nah, it was just an opp to get a dig in on labour


----------



## MrCurry (Mar 18, 2019)

Winot said:


> This is hilarious.



This comment sums it up for me.  We are past drama and well into farce territory.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> The gait has risen from a trot to a steady canter.


Nice to see trots left behind


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 18, 2019)

Given May's whole strategy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome you would have thought that someone may have considered this ruling a possibility.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 18, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Given May's whole strategy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome you would have thought that someone may have considered this ruling a possibility.



The option has been mooted in the last fortnight quoting Erskine May.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 18, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Given May's whole strategy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome you would have thought that someone may have considered this ruling a possibility.



It's not like that's the only reason May's plan is doomed. The question has only ever been which of the many possible dooms will strike first. If the final nail turns out to be the speaker stating the bleeding obvious, well at least that spares May's deal and May herself a more dramatic and ignominious end. The cruelest thing Bercow could do at this point would be to let this absurd shitshow rumble on a bit longer.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 18, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> The option has been mooted in the last fortnight quoting Erskine May.



Well yes, but given its a long standing convention and they have people who are supposed to know this sort of thing it does look like a bit of an oversight.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 18, 2019)

Supine said:


> Route is here. Take eggs.
> Route — March to Leave



I'm not wasting eggs on those muppets. They're doing a perfectly good job of humiliating themselves without my help.

e2a: They're giving Nottingham a big swerve anyhow.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 18, 2019)

They would have known about it but considered it unlikely.  Just as when the speaker said the other day 'thankyou for reminding me that there might need to be a judgement on the matter' to the member that raised the issue, he was talking shit.  Of course he didn't need reminding.  It had been in the papers and everything.  If I knew about it then I'm pretty sure he did .


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm not wasting eggs on those muppets. They're doing a perfectly good job of humiliating themselves without my help.
> 
> e2a: They're giving Nottingham a big swerve anyhow.



They're being very coy about where they are ending and starting on the "Beeston" leg, though I note that they quote the closest train station as being Long Eaton.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 18, 2019)

Just... I dunno. Hilarious I guess


----------



## marty21 (Mar 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Farage's march is passing through my town apparently.
> Google seems to have no details as to when and the route, just lots about the "People's Vote" march.
> 
> Bet he's hopping mad.


I saw something about them keeping the route a secret until the last minute due to dastardly remainers turning up and being mean to them .


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> They're being very coy about where they are ending and starting on the "Beeston" leg, though I note that they quote the closest train station as being Long Eaton.



And the start is closer to Newstead station than Mansfield 

We've had a run in with some Newstead kippers before, when they were strutting around Beeston town centre with placards spouting racist drivel and attempting to picket Anna Soubry's office, which they couldn't find.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 18, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Given May's whole strategy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome you would have thought that someone may have considered this ruling a possibility.



I surmise Bercow’s only mentioning it because someone else would have brought it up. The thing is all sides can now deter a second vote on anything unless it is radically amended.


----------



## Cloo (Mar 18, 2019)

My other half is probably starting a London-based contract on 1 April for a German business... he doesn't have to charge VAT to an EU business, but with 11 days in theory to go until we leave, no one actually fucking knows what the situation with that will be (I think he's figured out a work-around with his accountants for the time being). So clearly everything is very well worked out and it'll be business as usual if we leave.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 18, 2019)

marty21 said:


> I saw something about them keeping the route a secret until the last minute due to dastardly remainers turning up and being mean to them .



I wouldn’t give them a second of my time.
I don’t engage with the kippers when they come around I just let them see me putting their leaflets in the recycling bin.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 18, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I surmise Bercow’s only mentioning it because someone else would have brought it up. The thing is all sides can now deter a second vote on anything unless it is radically amended.


It's easier to radically amend something when it isn't written into a ratified 585-page document .


----------



## Winot (Mar 18, 2019)

Cloo said:


> My other half is probably starting a London-based contract on 1 April for a German business... he doesn't have to charge VAT to an EU business, but with 11 days in theory to go until we leave, no one actually fucking knows what the situation with that will be (I think he's figured out a work-around with his accountants for the time being). So clearly everything is very well worked out and it'll be business as usual if we leave.



We have a load of EU work that we do for clients all over the world. If we crash out on 29 March then the EU institution has said we can't do it from 30 March and they won't even talk to us about it. They will turn off our access to the online portal and close our current account. So we have had to line up a friendly German firm to give all our work to on 29 March in case of no deal.

I'm not blaming the EU for this - it's the logical consequence of becoming a third country.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm not wasting eggs on those muppets. They're doing a perfectly good job of humiliating themselves without my help.
> 
> e2a: They're giving Nottingham a big swerve anyhow.


Their mums wasted eggs on them and are doubtless feeling humiliated now


----------



## Cloo (Mar 18, 2019)

Winot said:


> We have a load of EU work that we do for clients all over the world. If we crash out on 29 March then the EU institution has said we can't do it from 30 March and they won't even talk to us about it. They will turn off our access to the online portal and close our current account. So we have had to line up a friendly German firm to give all our work to on 29 March in case of no deal.
> 
> I'm not blaming the EU for this - it's the logical consequence of becoming a third country.


You mean... British business might lose out?!  You don't say....?!


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 19, 2019)

right - i guess we are now onto chapter 2 of "WTF happens now?"

As a result of Bercow's spanner May deal could be finally dead. Noises from EU 27 seem to indicate they will only agree a longer extension if it "would have to be for a purpose"  - Here's france's europe minister -



> We need an initiative, we need something new because if it’s an extension to remain in the same deadlock [that would be unacceptable.] How do we get out of this deadlock? This is a question for the British authorities.
> 
> [The UK] have said ‘no’ to a no deal and they have said ‘no’ to a realistic deal. Now they have to change their mind on one or the other.
> 
> ...



What it effectively means is - you can only have an longer extension if you hold a GE and/or a 2nd ref. So within the next 10 days May will probably have to choose between crashing out, revoke a 50, general election or 2nd ref.
I still think she will go for election as the least shit choice - although she will almost certainly have to resign whatever happens - no way are the tories going to let her lead another  election campaign.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 19, 2019)

Im going for Bercow bypassed, Mays deal to pass with Hard Brexiter support on the condition May steps down and in the ensuing competition to replace her a hard brexiter gets in the driving seat for the business end of the negotiations.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 19, 2019)

I think it's a toss-up between May's deal passing or a GE.

I can't see crashing out, revoking A50 or a 2nd ref. happening myself.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 19, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Im going for Bercow bypassed, Mays deal to pass with Hard Brexiter support on the condition May steps down and in the ensuing competition to replace her a hard brexiter gets in the driving seat for the business end of the negotiations. No A50 extension.



I agree that Bercow will be bypassed and the deal brought back to Parliament again, probably next week after getting a short extension from the EU.  What happens after that though I don't know.  There are mumblings that she could get the deal through if she agrees to quit but the numbers still look incredibly tight.


----------



## gosub (Mar 19, 2019)




----------



## Cid (Mar 19, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Im going for Bercow bypassed, Mays deal to pass with Hard Brexiter support on the condition May steps down and in the ensuing competition to replace her a hard brexiter gets in the driving seat for the business end of the negotiations. No A50 extension.



Yeah, but then there's the potential of losing remainer votes, though possibly they'll be scared enough by the prospect of crashing out after final ditch vote. Enough back door dealing might just about get them there. Though yeah, I think you might be right about the direction... It gives her an easy out even if it does fail 'I made a deal, a rational deal, the EU said so, it was the people who voted against that made us crash out'. And it fits with just chugging along with the same old shit, never admitting mistakes.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 19, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> I agree that Bercow will be bypassed and the deal brought back to Parliament again, probably next week after getting a short extension from the EU.  What happens after that though I don't know.  There are mumblings that she could get the deal through if she agrees to quit but the numbers still look incredibly tight.



she can only bypass bercow if she can get a majority in parliament - which doesn't look likely. There is still a rump of ERGers who will not shift and The DUP are still effectively saying "get rid of the backstop" or we vote against - just changing how that is phrased.
I also wonder weather the DUP are actually quite relaxed about brexit being reversed - i cant see how it costs them anything politically (outside of their hardcore - many of their own voters are remain and even more are against no deal)  - whereas signing up to Mays deal - or going for no deal - will leave them portrayed either as weak willed supplicants who imperilled the godly union - or the enablers of what would be an economic and societal disaster for northern ireland.


----------



## Cid (Mar 19, 2019)

I still can't quite get my head around how fucking farcical the last few years have been.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 19, 2019)

Something I think we all knew, but handy to have it laid out in black and white:


----------



## gosub (Mar 19, 2019)

Cid said:


> I still can't quite get my head around how fucking farcical the last few years have been.


Can you imagine how bad it could have been  without strong and stable leadership...

And yet there are still remainers who think we can pretend the last few years have nt happened a can go back to pretending the political interface isn't broken


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 19, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Something I think we all knew, but handy to have it laid out in black and white:




Yes, its been obvious for some time that you could get a large group of people who voted leave together and they'd all have voted the way they did for different reasons and want a different outcome.  This is why is so stupid to keep hearing facile nonsense like 'the brexit we voted for' etc

Of course to an extent the same goes the other way.


----------



## Winot (Mar 19, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> she can only bypass bercow if she can get a majority in parliament - which doesn't look likely. There is still a rump of ERGers who will not shift and The DUP are still effectively saying "get rid of the backstop" or we vote against - just changing how that is phrased.
> I also wonder weather the DUP are actually quite relaxed about brexit being reversed - i cant see how it costs them anything politically (outside of their hardcore - many of their own voters are remain and even more are against no deal)  - whereas signing up to Mays deal - or going for no deal - will leave them portrayed either as weak willed supplicants who imperilled the godly union - or the enablers of what would be an economic and societal disaster for northern ireland.



I don't think the DUP will risk a GE. It benefits them to keep this Parliament alive - they will never have this much power again.


----------



## Cid (Mar 19, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Yes, its been obvious for some time that you could get a large group of people who voted leave together and they'd all have voted the way they did for different reasons and want a different outcome.  This is why is so stupid to keep hearing facile nonsense like 'the brexit we voted for' etc
> 
> Of course to an extent the same goes the other way.



Not really... I mean, yeah there are any number of reasons people voted to remain, but they all voted for a very well defined thing.


----------



## gosub (Mar 19, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> she can only bypass bercow if she can get a majority in parliament - which doesn't look likely. There is still a rump of ERGers who will not shift and The DUP are still effectively saying "get rid of the backstop" or we vote against - just changing how that is phrased.
> I also wonder weather the DUP are actually quite relaxed about brexit being reversed - i cant see how it costs them anything politically (outside of their hardcore - many of their own voters are remain and even more are against no deal)  - whereas signing up to Mays deal - or going for no deal - will leave them portrayed either as weak willed supplicants who imperilled the godly union - or the enablers of what would be an economic and societal disaster for northern ireland.


No she can ask the Queen to do another opening of Parliament..  But that would be daft if she didn't have the votes


----------



## ska invita (Mar 19, 2019)

I'm going by the maxim that the Tories are powerful, they always get what they want, and everything else is wishful thinking.
All those Brexit going wrong memes and May is the most incompetent etc comments destined for the bin of history
Thats the mood im in today anyway

Of they'll crash the bus..... but I havent got it in me to believe it right now


Cid said:


> I still can't quite get my head around how fucking farcical the last few years have been.


i dont see it as farce...its the well oiled ever smooth running establishment having to deal with the potential for a big change....i like that disruption bit of it, i want to see a lot more of that - unfortunately its a change that looks likely to make hundreds of thousands of people illegal overnight and open to the door to deeper privatisation, which takes the shine off it a bit

ETA: TEaboy, yes, quite right, add short extension to my earlier prediction #42


----------



## philosophical (Mar 19, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Yes, its been obvious for some time that you could get a large group of people who voted leave together and they'd all have voted the way they did for different reasons and want a different outcome.  This is why is so stupid to keep hearing facile nonsense like 'the brexit we voted for' etc Ofcourse to an extent the same goes the other way



Whatever motivation people had for voting might be an interesting diversion to contemplate, however there were only four words on the winning side of the voting slip, and the verb was 'leave'.
For me contemplating the word leave is what interests me, all other interpretations of what motivated people generally is opinion that can't be substantiated.
What is left are the practicalities.


----------



## CRI (Mar 19, 2019)

Meanwhile . . . 

The Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) has fined Vote Leave Limited £40,000 for sending out thousands of unsolicited text messages in the run up to the 2016 EU referendum.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2019)

Which made people vote leave. The devils.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 19, 2019)

Did they vote leave because they got a text or because they're all racist or both?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Did they vote leave because they got a text or because they're all racist or both?



Bit of a waste of money sending the texts to racists.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 19, 2019)

None of the racists I know voted remain.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 19, 2019)

So, drawing attention to breaches of electoral rules is now the same as calling everyone racist because of what now?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

"I hear you're a racist now Father"
- yeah, I got a text saying I had to be.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> So, drawing attention to breaches of electoral rules is now the same as calling everyone racist because of what now?


Look, can't you just embrace the chaos? And if you post this again, Erskine May awaits.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

philosophical said:


> None of the racists I know voted remain.


do you in fact know all the racists you know?


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 19, 2019)

How many words or phrases have you learned cos of Brexit?  I'm on zugzwang, Erskine May, erm... Brexit itself of course.  Sure there's a few others.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> do you in fact know all the racists you know?


"We asked 100 racists for their views on Brexit..."


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> "We asked 100 racists for their views on Brexit..."



Sovereignty!  The answer is sovereignty!

<claims £5 prize>


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> do you in fact know all the racists you know?



If I don't know them, then by definition I don't know them.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> do you in fact know all the racists you know?



Unknown unknowns.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 19, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> How many words or phrases have you learned cos of Brexit?  I'm on zugzwang, Erskine May, erm... Brexit itself of course.  Sure there's a few others.



Ubershambles.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> "We asked 100 racists for their views on Brexit..."




but my point was that not all racists are known racists - there are the known racists, the ones who spout crude racial epithets: these are the ones we know we know. but there are also unknown knowns - these are the racists we don't know we know.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 19, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> How many words or phrases have you learned cos of Brexit?  I'm on zugzwang, Erskine May, erm... Brexit itself of course.  Sure there's a few others.


prorogue


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> Sovereignty!  The answer is sovereignty!
> 
> <claims £5 prize>


FFS, you need the top 3 answers. Don't get 3 and the other family have a chance to steal!

In fact Brexit should be made into a musical with game show themes running throughout. Right, I'm on to that Stewart Lee.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> If I don't know them, then by definition I don't know them.


by no means. every so often someone on here vomits forth some racist bile we had never previously thought them capable of - we know them, we didn't know their racist views. same offline. there will be people with whom you're acquainted who hold racist views of which you are unaware.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> but my point was that not all racists are known racists - there are the known racists, the ones who spout crude racial epithets: these are the ones we know we know. but there are also unknown knowns - these are the racists we don't know we know.



Perhaps they don’t know either.  They could be everywhere.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> prorogue


learnt it while doing history a level, a common phrase to do with elizabethan parliaments.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> Perhaps they don’t know either.  They could be everywhere.


those are the racists who don't know they're racists until they inadvertantly say the wrong thing to the wrong people.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> FFS, you need the top 3 answers. Don't get 3 and the other family have a chance to steal!
> 
> In fact Brexit should be made into a musical with game show themes running throughout. Right, I'm on to that Stewart Lee.



Sovereignty 
Bananas
Winston Churchill


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> those are the racists who don't know they're racists until they inadvertantly say the wrong thing to the wrong people.



All we can say of anyone is that we may not be sure that they’re a racist yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> FFS, you need the top 3 answers. Don't get 3 and the other family have a chance to steal!
> 
> In fact Brexit should be made into a musical with game show themes running throughout. Right, I'm on to that Stewart Lee.


game of thrones. it'd be a thing of joy to see nigel farage, boris johnson etc topped at a brexiters' red wedding


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> All we can say of anyone is that we may not be sure that they’re a racist yet.


until they let the cat out the bag so to speak


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 19, 2019)

I’m a racist and so is my wife!
Oh.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> but my point was that not all racists are known racists - there are the known racists, the ones who spout crude racial epithets: these are the ones we know we know. but there are also unknown knowns - these are the racists we don't know we know.


Oh, I don't know, think about it, this is the perfect Witchfinder question: 

"Did you vote for Brexit?"
- yes
"Racist!"
- what, all 17 million of us?
"Your own words have dammed you"
- oh, sorry.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> Sovereignty
> Bananas
> Winston Churchill


You also win a Spa Pamper Day for the Bananas answer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Oh, I don't know, think about it, this is the perfect Witchfinder question:
> 
> "Did you vote for Brexit?"
> - yes
> ...


their own words have damned them

unless they're in the list of former people






in which case dammed is right, as the plan to drain the falklands sound will require former people who aren't afraid to be covered in concrete in the workplace.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> until they let the cat out the bag so to speak



There should be a national “Let The Cat Out Of The Bag Day”.  Then everyone could relax for a bit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> There should be a national “Let The Cat Out Of The Bag Day”.  Then everyone could relax for a bit.


the rspca advise me they'd be in favour of this day unless it meant that on the previous day people had put cats into bags


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 19, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Did they vote leave because they got a text or because they're all racist or both?



No what actually happened was text messages made them racist. It's all the fault of Facebook and iPhones making people racist  Also Russia.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

I'm beginning to see Brexit as a surreal edition of the Chase. 'If the chaser gets a question wrong, she moves back a step...'.

Bradley Walsh has already been revealed as a time traveller. Worth thinking about.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the rspca advise me they'd be in favour of this day unless it meant that on the previous day people had put cats into bags



Might be more practical in that case to have a “Tip Cats Out Of Their Boxes” day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> Might be more practical in that case to have a “Tip Cats Out Of Their Boxes” day.


perhaps a 'be nice to cats' day


----------



## elbows (Mar 19, 2019)

Even fricking Paddy Power are trolling May.



edit - oh the embedded video aint working, have to click the bloody tweet to see it.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps a 'be nice to cats' day



That’s really not going to address the racism issue, is it?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 19, 2019)

elbows said:


> Even fricking Paddy Power are trolling May.
> 
> 
> 
> edit - oh the embedded video aint working, have to click the bloody tweet to see it.




They've been trolling May for months to be fair. It's annoying as it's affecting their pricing and they've got lots of options for Brexit Bets.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> That’s really not going to address the racism issue, is it?


it'd remove the rspca concerns


----------



## kabbes (Mar 19, 2019)

Cid said:


> Not really... I mean, yeah there are any number of reasons people voted to remain, but they all voted for a very well defined thing.


They most certainly did not, unless you can well define what the EU will be in 20 years’ time.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 19, 2019)

kabbes said:


> They most certainly did not, unless you can well define what the EU will be in 20 years’ time.


I think that's a bit of a stretch tbh. In the short to medium term, it was pretty well defined. Keep free travel within EU, keep customs union, keep trade deals, keep EU labour laws, keep seats at EU parliament, keep ECJ jurisdiction, keep paying into the CAP, keep scientific joint projects, etc. It was the 'continue in the same relationship with the EU' option. The other option requires establishing a new relationship with the EU, for which many choices exist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think that's a bit of a stretch tbh. In the short to medium term, it was pretty well defined


indeed it was - ever closer union


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> prorogue


_Never heard of it???_ Surely you've sat round the camp fire and sung '_pro-ro-rogue your boat, gently down the stream_'?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> _Never heard of it???_ Surely you've sat round the camp fire and sung '_pro-ro-rogue your boat, gently down the stream_'?


it's suspending parliament, it's not dissolved - it can be summoned again.

but yes, i can picture littlebabyjesus sitting round the campfire and singing not only pro-pro-rogue your boat but also prorogue lang syne


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> _Never heard of it???_ Surely you've sat round the camp fire and sung '_pro-ro-rogue your boat, gently down the stream_'?


I’m anti-rogue.

I’m pro-rouge, though.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

Rogue Superstates = fucking rotters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m anti-rogue.
> 
> I’m pro-rouge, though.


yes, i hear you've a fine collection of make-up of all sorts and not just rouge


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Rogue Superstates = fucking rotters.


all states are rogue states


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, i hear you've a fine collection of make-up of all sorts and not just rouge


If you keep reading my posts, you’ll soon have a good foundation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> If you keep reading my posts, you’ll soon have a good foundation.


i've learned from your posts that when going on a contentious demonstration always have a mascara nother sort of disguise.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i've learned from your posts that when going on a contentious demonstration always have a mascara nother sort of disguise.


That’s enough of your lippy.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 19, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think that's a bit of a stretch tbh. In the short to medium term, it was pretty well defined. Keep free travel within EU, keep customs union, keep trade deals, keep EU labour laws, keep seats at EU parliament, keep ECJ jurisdiction, keep paying into the CAP, keep scientific joint projects, etc. It was the 'continue in the same relationship with the EU' option. The other option requires establishing a new relationship with the EU, for which many choices exist.


I don’t agree.  There’s more than enough uncertainty in the EU even to understand it in a well defined fashion 5 years’ hence.  Meanwhile, it is arguably easier to predict the position of the U.K. out of than in the EU in 20 years.  And a long term perspective is important, because voting remain would not have seen the vote come around again for many decades.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2019)

It's nice these people get to talk for countries. EU good.


----------



## Cid (Mar 19, 2019)

kabbes said:


> I don’t agree.  There’s more than enough uncertainty in the EU even to understand it in a well defined fashion 5 years’ hence.  Meanwhile, it is arguably easier to predict the position of the U.K. out of than in the EU in 20 years.  And a long term perspective is important, because voting remain would not have seen the vote come around again for many decades.



I did say defined, not predictable... As in it maintains a clearly defined set of relationships. I do see what you're saying in the sense that a remain vote is still very much open to uncertainty, but I meant it in the more limited sense of things that people were voting on at the time. One option is defined; accept current relationships and whatever follows from them, the other really had no sense of definition at all. 

Kind of surprised you'd make the latter part of that argument. Neither is really predictable in any meaningful sense. Nor is the prospect/lack of one for a future vote...


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> _Never heard of it???_ Surely you've sat round the camp fire and sung '_pro-ro-rogue your boat, gently down the stream_'?


Also Bobby Brown's 80's Classic 'It's My Prorogue-ative'.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 19, 2019)

At this point I can only see the UK leaving with no deal. The only A50 extension we may see will be near Uttoxeter.

ETA:


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 19, 2019)

Five minutes is a long time on urban.
Talk of May asking for a two year extension of Article 50. 
Kay Burley, sadness in her eyes.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 19, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> At this point I can only see the UK leaving with no deal. The only A50 extension we may see will be near Uttoxeter.


I had to go to Cheshire on the Saturday night they closed it to drop in the new bridge by the JCB factory, the diversion to get round it took me on a confusing journey  all over the place much like I suspect an A50 extension by May will.


----------



## Poot (Mar 19, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> At this point I can only see the UK leaving with no deal. The only A50 extension we may see will be near Uttoxeter.


Isn't the EU (when they've stopped laughing) broadly agreeable to an extension, though? 

Incidentally, in Devon (it's always Devon) lorry drivers are talking about blockading the M5 if Brexit is delayed.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 19, 2019)

Poot said:


> Isn't the EU (when they've stopped laughing) broadly agreeable to an extension, though?
> 
> Incidentally, in Devon (it's always Devon) lorry drivers are talking about blockading the M5 if Brexit is delayed.



Perhaps I should have finished the post with a


----------



## Poot (Mar 19, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Perhaps I should have finished the post with a


I'm having a right mare today - sorry. It was the prospect of everyone's cream tea being delayed.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 19, 2019)

Poot said:


> Isn't the EU (when they've stopped laughing) broadly agreeable to an extension, though?
> 
> Incidentally, in Devon (it's always Devon) lorry drivers are talking about blockading the M5 if Brexit is delayed.



It's not just Devon, but nationwide.



> TRUCK drivers are planning to stage UK-wide blockades on highways if the country does not leave the EU on March 29, which they would see as a “Brexit betrayal”.
> 
> A statement posted by the group on Twitter read: “Brexiteers all over the country are planning to bring this country to its knees by blocking the main arterial routes - M1, M6 M25, M62, A1, A55, M5, M4, M42, M55, M61, A66 etc.



BREXIT BLOCK: Lorry drivers threaten to CLOSE UK transport links if exit is delayed


----------



## editor (Mar 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's not just Devon, but nationwide.
> 
> 
> 
> BREXIT BLOCK: Lorry drivers threaten to CLOSE UK transport links if exit is delayed


Fucking dickheads. Maybe the pro-Brexit protesters could hire in tanks and turn the whole debate into an epic battlefield.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 19, 2019)

So they want a direct choice of being sat around in operation stack or sat around on other motorways?  You'd think they'd have better things to do.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> Also Bobby Brown's 80's Classic 'It's My Prorogue-ative'.


That reminds me, Theresa May herself has just released a song: _'it's my party and I'll prorogue if I want to'_


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's not just Devon, but nationwide.
> BREXIT BLOCK: Lorry drivers threaten to CLOSE UK transport links if exit is delayed


So this is just like the thousands dozens of people on the Leave Now March then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> So this is just like the thousands dozens handful of people on the Leave Now March then?


c4u


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2019)

editor said:


> Fucking dickheads. Maybe the pro-Brexit protesters could hire in tanks and turn the whole debate into an epic battlefield.



Not to worry, sitting in blockades will be good practise for them in case we leave without a deal.


----------



## pesh (Mar 19, 2019)

they've also promised to block trains and planes which should be pretty spectacular


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

pesh said:


> they've also promised to block trains and planes which should be pretty spectacular


planes trains and automobiles


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 19, 2019)

Turkeys meanwhile are threatening to riot in protest against possible delays to Christmas.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's not just Devon, but nationwide.
> 
> 
> 
> BREXIT BLOCK: Lorry drivers threaten to CLOSE UK transport links if exit is delayed



Would be very interesting if this did happen in substantial numbers although I'm not sure it will. Anyone seen anything about this not in the Express?


----------



## andysays (Mar 19, 2019)

Cabinet are arguing over May's request to delay Brexit, according to BBC


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 19, 2019)

pesh said:


> they've also promised to block trains and planes which should be pretty spectacular



A few trucks on level crossings, and a few drones over airports?

I guess it's doable.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> planes trains and automobiles


2nd fave Candy character, Uncle Buck is always no1


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> A few trucks on level crossings, and a few drones over airports?
> 
> I guess it's doable.



Only if they fancy doing a bit of a time.  More blowhards sounding off, they'll be full of shit as per.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 19, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Would be very interesting if this did happen in substantial numbers although I'm not sure it will. Anyone seen anything about this not in the Express?



Yep, loads of links to local/regional press sites reporting it, although most seem to be owned by Reach PLC, owners of the Mirror, Express & Star national rags.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

There's stuff on here about Barnier's response to May's request for an extension:
Barnier tells May she must offer 'something new' to get long Brexit extension from EU - Politics live
I'm particularly thinking about the Peston stuff at 16:25:


> Barnier very sceptical of granting Brexit delay unless PM has clear plan for securing ratification from MPs for the Withdrawal Agreement. But he says if MPs signal “ambitious” proposals for the future relationship, then the political declaration (not WA) could be amended fast.


Could that be seen as encouragement for Labour to go with the Norway/2.0/customs union type stuff? 

He's also nurdling about further 'events' - general elections, ref2:


> .@MichelBarnier confirms that EU leaders will be asking of a delay “what is the purpose of it - what is it for?”  And he adds that “a longer extension needs to be linked to something new, a new event, a new political process”. The implication is long delay would have to be...


Whatever he's on about, Theresa won't like it. Good.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Barnier tells May she must offer 'something new' to get long Brexit extension from EU



They're going to make her dance for it. She's got to do the running man, not that same old weird twitch again.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 19, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> At this point I can only see the UK leaving with no deal. The only A50 extension we may see will be near Uttoxeter.



EU seem pretty clear that they don't want to grant an extension if it's just going to result in another two year stalemate. I doubt May has anything concrete to offer them in terms of a plan to break the deadlock, if she did she'd have done it by now.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> They're going to make her dance for it. She's got to do the running man, not that same old weird twitch again.


I'll add the obligatory 'I'm not a fan of either side', but yes, this is the point where they will/should humiliate her. That's personalising it certainly, but the intransigence bit is certainly about May personally. It's certainly the point to remind Johnson and the rest about the claims they made about the EU rolling over in desperation for a deal. Actually, they _are_ very keen to get a deal, but the Tories have thrown away every card they had. They sit in the waiting room waiting to be summoned.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> EU seem pretty clear that they don't want to grant an extension if it's just going to result in another two year stalemate. I doubt May has anything concrete to offer them in terms of a plan to break the deadlock, if she did she'd have done it by now.


I agree with the points made earlier that May isn't uniquely useless and has been buggering on with the hand she, in part, dealt to herself.  Same time if you were an EU bod you'd want somebody a bit less one track obsessive. You'd want some kind of slippery Blair creature in place, for a mutually rewarding neo-liberal embrace.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> There's stuff on here about Barnier's response to May's request for an extension:
> Barnier tells May she must offer 'something new' to get long Brexit extension from EU - Politics live
> I'm particularly thinking about the Peston stuff at 16:25:
> 
> ...



yeah. They can frame it as her red lines changing but that basically means either she goes or GE/referendum.


----------



## pesh (Mar 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> A few trucks on level crossings, and a few drones over airports?
> 
> I guess it's doable.


fuck that, i want an enormous Evel Knievel style ramp just outside Gatwick with an angry trucker at the top of it.


----------



## chilango (Mar 19, 2019)

I guess the reaction "on the streets" to a big Brexit delay will give them a good guage if whether they think they can get away with cancelling the while thing a little further down the line...


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 19, 2019)

chilango said:


> I guess the reaction "on the streets" to a big Brexit delay will give them a good guage if whether they think they can get away with cancelling the while thing a little further down the line...



I was thinking that. But also I think the decision for some would be "how many times do we need to delay it". 

Are there any polls on how important Brexit is to voters recently? As in compared to say housing, NHS, economy, jobs. Used to be loads which were used to argue that a referendum wasn't that important.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 19, 2019)

Further on the possible public unrest thing, which demo's/protests should I join? Will I hate both? Are trots allowed to stay at home? Who knows?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Further on the possible public unrest thing, which demo's/protests should I join? Will I hate both? Are trots allowed to stay at home? Who knows?


Trots should stay at home under any and all circumstances. Keep an overnight bag packed so when the police come for you, you do not detain them unnecessarily


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Trots should stay at home under any and all circumstances. Keep an overnight bag packed so when the police come for you, you do not detain them unnecessarily



Wouldn't want to detain them unnecessarily, might slow them down coming after you


----------



## Poi E (Mar 19, 2019)

So Mays asking for a delay until June 30 or later, apparently.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 19, 2019)

Wonder if the panic buyers have eaten all their rations yet


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

Poi E said:


> So Mays asking for a delay until June 30 or later, apparently.


June 30 of which year?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Wonder if the panic buyers have eaten all their rations yet


Not here, strictly reserved till 29/3 in event of soviet sainsburys being bare-shelved


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 19, 2019)

Don't know about motorway blockades but surely the Tories will pay a price for this.Goodness knows how many ardent Brexiteers made to wait a thousand days only to have the brakes applied with nine days to go.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 19, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Wonder if the panic buyers have eaten all their rations yet


No we haven't, I've opened a big box of teabags today and I have definitely drunk some of the booze, will probably drink yet more of it over the next couple of weeks.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 19, 2019)

How many times did May say that we would be leaving on 29th March in the House of Commons? Over one hundred?


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 19, 2019)

Argonia said:


> How many times did May say that we would be leaving on 29th March in the House of Commons? Over one hundred?


Yep can quite see her and her party having a long over-due Dorian Grey moment when the clock ticks over to twenty-ninth-and nothing happens.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 19, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Wonder if the panic buyers have eaten all their rations yet


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> June 30 of which year?



20xx


----------



## Wilf (Mar 19, 2019)

*Anyway, now is the moment for Corbyn to strike. Strike while the monster is weakened! Do it, now! *

Erm, Jeremy, are you ready? Anytime soon? Well, okay, would you be free next week?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> *Anyway, now is the moment for Corbyn to strike. Strike while the monster is weakened! Do it, now! *
> 
> Erm, Jeremy, are you ready? Anytime soon? Well, okay, would you be free next week?


Corbyns plan....kind of working tbf


----------



## 8ball (Mar 19, 2019)

Wilf said:


> *Anyway, now is the moment for Corbyn to strike. Strike while the monster is weakened! Do it, now! *
> 
> Erm, Jeremy, are you ready? Anytime soon? Well, okay, would you be free next week?



The thing about Jez and Brexit is that basically he can’t find a single fuck to give either way.  He’s always hated the whole EU business club but he’s also tugged in the direction of the loyalties of the party membership.

If there is a Labour surge in the direction of a second vote then Corbyn is going to be lacklustre as fuck and it could cost him the leadership.


----------



## dweller (Mar 20, 2019)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

'announce her resignation date immediately'? 

We really do live in strange times. I've fucked up and I've lost the confidence of my colleagues, so I've decided that I will resign on 1 October.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'announce her resignation date immediately'?
> 
> We really do live in strange times. I've fucked up and I've lost the confidence of my colleagues, so I've decided that I will resign on 1 October.



... as soon as the conservatory is paid for.


----------



## A380 (Mar 20, 2019)

I hope that when they come to remove her she climbs on the roof of Number 10 and starts throwing slates at the old bill.  That would make the money BBC and ITV spend on helicopters worth paying.


----------



## andysays (Mar 20, 2019)

May 'will not be asking for a long extension' - BBC


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

andysays said:


> May 'will not be asking for a long extension' - BBC


Yeh she'll be given just enough rope


----------



## Patteran (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Would be very interesting if this did happen in substantial numbers although I'm not sure it will. Anyone seen anything about this not in the Express?



It's all come from this twitter account - BrexitDirectAction (@ActionBrexit) on Twitter - though whether or not the account has any tangible links to wagon drivers is unclear. Something about it smells off to me. Their press release is odd - final reference to an inability 'to provide any media outlet with live or recorded interviews' seems incongruous in a movement that typically loves the limelight.


----------



## Supine (Mar 20, 2019)

andysays said:


> May 'will not be asking for a long extension' - BBC



Because she had so many threats of resignation last night. The cork is about to explode out of the bottle


----------



## Poot (Mar 20, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> Don't know about motorway blockades but surely the Tories will pay a price for this.Goodness knows how many ardent Brexiteers made to wait a thousand days only to have the brakes applied with nine days to go.



I misheard John Snow last night and thought war had broken out in the capital. I thought, 'well, it was only a matter of time' but then it turned out that he had said Cabinet rather than capital. 

I do still think that everyone's been remarkably patient. Or disorganised. Or something. I dunno.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'announce her resignation date immediately'?
> 
> We really do live in strange times. I've fucked up and I've lost the confidence of my colleagues, so I've decided that I will resign on 1 October.


They want her gone before the next stage of negotiations - suggesting they'll pass the transition agreement


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 20, 2019)

classic. a victory to remain, as we said.

Eurosceptic Tories use covert talks to call on EU countries to veto Brexit extension


----------



## ska invita (Mar 20, 2019)

dialectician said:


> classic. a victory to remain, as we said.
> 
> Eurosceptic Tories use covert talks to call on EU countries to veto Brexit extension


Doesnt mean it will happen (get vetoed)

ETA: the effect would be A50 withdrawn rather than no deal anyhow, Id imagine


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

ska invita said:


> ETA: the effect would be A50 withdrawn rather than no deal anyhow, Id imagine


that's where i reckon it will end up


----------



## andysays (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh she'll be given just enough rope


Something something safe European home something ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

dialectician said:


> classic. a victory to remain, as we said.
> 
> Eurosceptic Tories use covert talks to call on EU countries to veto Brexit extension


[ misread post: deleted]


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 20, 2019)

well of course not. hence why i said victory to remain.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

andysays said:


> Something something safe European home something ...


more last gang in town i think


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you obviously missed the various right-wingers calling on countries in europe to veto the extension so they'd get no deal



i didn't...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

dialectician said:


> i didn't...


you're like the bbc, so many repeats


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 20, 2019)

the same could be said for you as well.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Doesnt mean it will happen (get vetoed)
> 
> ETA: the effect would be A50 withdrawn rather than no deal anyhow, Id imagine


Parliament would need to agree to withdraw A50. So there would need to be a majority to do so. Given that there’s a majority against leaving on 29th without a Deal, you might think that a vote to withdraw A50 in those circumstances would be automatic. But as with everything else, that’s an assumption. Does every MP who wants to prevent leaving without a Deal on 29th also want to be seen as voting to cancel Brexit?


----------



## Supine (Mar 20, 2019)

We'll see on the 29th probably


----------



## ska invita (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> that's where i reckon it will end up


I don't think the veto will happen, so I don't think A50 will be withdrawn.

More likely I think:

Short extension followed by MV3.
If it passes May leaves and the next round of the deal goes to negotiation with a Tory hard brexiter in charge.

If it doesn't pass there's a move to Norway style thing or an election. Though if May leaves and is replaced by a hard brexiter that might make it harder for Norway to happen. Her departure date, pre or post June deadline, becomes a factor I guess. I expect she'll go after the end of June, if she can hold on that long.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 20, 2019)

Agreed - I’d be gobsmacked if there’s a majority in Parliament for withdrawing art.50, even if the alternative meant no deal.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Parliament would need to agree to withdraw A50. So there would need to be a majority to do so. Given that there’s a majority against leaving on 29th without a Deal, you might think that a vote to withdraw A50 in those circumstances would be automatic. But as with everything else, that’s an assumption. Does every MP who wants to prevent leaving without a Deal on 29th also want to be seen as voting to cancel Brexit?


If it were to come before parliament, that would mean that the government would have brought it before parliament. If we get to that stage, I suspect there will be a large majority for cancelling. Not many of them will want to be seen to be doing that, but we're back to that chess situation of zugzwang again - forced into a situation where you have to make a move that fucks you up.

I'll be amazed if some kind of extension isn't granted, though.

ETA: Bit like chess again, sometimes it's hard to tell if a move is good or bad until later in the game. Did Bercow do May a favour, for instance, by ruling out MV3 this week, giving her the chance to bring it back with the extension in place?


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 20, 2019)

Patteran said:


> It's all come from this twitter account - BrexitDirectAction (@ActionBrexit) on Twitter - though whether or not the account has any tangible links to wagon drivers is unclear. Something about it smells off to me. Their press release is odd - final reference to an inability 'to provide any media outlet with live or recorded interviews' seems incongruous in a movement that typically loves the limelight.



No interviews as it’s just the Russians/Mercer making trouble again? </tinfoil>


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Agreed - I’d be gobsmacked if there’s a majority in Parliament for withdrawing art.50, even if the alternative meant no deal.


so much about this is gobsmacking i wouldn't be at all surprised


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh she'll be given just enough rope



Not my copy! 
Strummer would be spinning.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Not my copy!
> Strummer would be spinning.


it's not a phrase invented by the clash, you know


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's not a phrase invented by the clash, you know



They nicked a lot I’m aware of tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> They nicked a lot I’m aware of tbh.


give em enough rope
career opportunities
cost of living...


----------



## Patteran (Mar 20, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> No interviews as it’s just the Russians/Mercer making trouble again? </tinfoil>


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

Whatever is next then, leave on the 29th with No Deal, May's resignation or a G/E?


----------



## 2hats (Mar 20, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> No interviews as it’s just the Russians/Mercer making trouble again? </tinfoil>


Ve lorry drivers ve are just here on holiday and having difficult finding beautiful spire of Salisbury.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

The comedy of errors rolls on and it’s ludicrous behaviour, but a bit funny too.


----------



## andysays (Mar 20, 2019)

And now May has announced she has asked Tusk for an extension to June, but she's  not prepared to ask for anything beyond that...


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 20, 2019)

andysays said:


> And now May has announced she has asked Tusk for an extension to June, but she's  not prepared to ask for anything beyond that...



Well that's settled then. As we know she never does anything she says she definitely won't do.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I don't think the veto will happen, so I don't think A50 will be withdrawn.
> 
> More likely I think:
> 
> ...



Problem for May is that if there's an extension, the sense of urgency and threat of leaving with no deal that would be her main levers for getting MPs to back her deal third time around would become less compelling threats. 

Meanwhile the EU will want to leverage the whole situation to get a Norway-esque deal on the table.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> No interviews as it’s just the Russians/Mercer making trouble again? </tinfoil>



They'd normally use more than one twitter account.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Problem for May is that if there's an extension, the sense of urgency and threat of leaving with no deal that would be her main levers for getting MPs to back her deal third time around would become less compelling threats.
> 
> Meanwhile the EU will want to leverage the whole situation to get a Norway-esque deal on the table.


June deadline provides that threat?
And the threat of Norway, elections, 2nd ref, become much more real than previously, especially if the EU makes them a precondition of an extension post MV3 not passing?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

Apparently Juncker told May not to ask for a delay beyond the Euro elections. Or something.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

ska invita said:


> June deadline provides that threat?
> And the threat of Norway, elections, 2nd ref, become much more real than previously, especially if the EU makes them a precondition of an extension post MV3 not passing?


It also provides space for the pro-Norway tories to get themselves organised, perhaps? Drawing a (red) line in the sand only to step back and draw another line when your opponent gets within punching distance isn't a show of strength. Is that second line a stronger or weaker one than the first one?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

The neck of Theresa May, to stand in parliament and say without taking a breath that the house has let down the people of Britain. She is deluded, dangerous and defunct.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Apparently Juncker told May not to ask for a delay beyond the Euro elections. Or something.




Pretty sure May was told that there would be no extension beyond the EU elections months if not years ago.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

ska invita said:


> June deadline provides that threat.
> the threat of Norway,



The same as in June 793 on Lindisfarne?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Problem for May is that if there's an extension, the sense of urgency and threat of leaving with no deal that would be her main levers for getting MPs to back her deal third time around would become less compelling threats.
> 
> *Meanwhile the EU will want to leverage the whole situation to get a Norway-esque deal on the tab*le.


 Ironically, the thing that if MPs were able to vote in a secret ballot would probably their preferred outcome, or at least would top the list of preferred options if some kind of Brexit is to take place.

Whilst I'm, shall we say, not really a fan of parliamentary government, this all shows the weaknesses of that system. The fact that it's really Cabinet government, with the Executive setting out what can be discussed and when has shaped the whole process. Even in a hung parliament, all that rebel MPs and the opposition can do is stop certain things temporarily. Even as late as this week, the nearest we've got to parliament expressing it's own view is John Bercow reminding them that they should try this out. The other thing that was shown up today is the lie that May is resolute and ploughs on regardless. Reportedly she was poised to ask for 9 months and a few threats from the ultras and she's back into a 3 months. She probably is quite strong personally but lacks the skills to duck and weave, schmooze a deal, manoeuvre the blocks around.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Pretty sure May was told that there would be no extension beyond the EU elections months if not years ago.



To be fair they've also said they'd be cool with an extension of two years.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

Or Juncker has anyway.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

It's always been the case that various sides will be cool with all kinds of things if that is the best way for them to get what they want, regardless of what they might say in public. I would think the EU would be delighted by a two-year extension, and would grant it like a shot if it were requested, as they would reason in such a scenario that brexit is probably never going to happen. Its democratic mandate would be all but gone in two years' time.

Indeed, granting two years is no different in effect from the UK cancelling A50 only to trigger it again straight away, something the EU has said is not on, but that is technically quite possible to do.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Ironically, the thing that if MPs were able to vote in a secret ballot would probably their preferred outcome, or at least would top the list of preferred options if some kind of Brexit is to take place.
> 
> Whilst I'm, shall we say, not really a fan of parliamentary government, this all shows the weaknesses of that system. The fact that it's really Cabinet government, with the Executive setting out what can be discussed and when has shaped the whole process. Even in a hung parliament, all that rebel MPs and the opposition can do is stop certain things temporarily. Even as late as this week, the nearest we've got to parliament expressing it's own view is John Bercow reminding them that they should try this out. The other thing that was shown up today is the lie that May is resolute and ploughs on regardless. Reportedly she was poised to ask for 9 months and a few threats from the ultras and she's back into a 3 months. She probably is quite strong personally but lacks the skills to duck and weave, schmooze a deal, manoeuvre the blocks around.


I'm no fan of May but I have to admire her tenacity, she is dealing with the EU from a position of weakness while the people who should have her back are repeatedly stabbing her in it. If it were me I would have said "Fuck the lot of you and walked off" She must really want that job, I'm certain that she is going to have to be physically carried out of No 10 and her hands pried off the door frame on the way out.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 20, 2019)

Brussels says no to May's June.Brussels says no to Theresa May's June delay plea amid stormy PMQs clashes - follow live updates


----------



## Poi E (Mar 20, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> I'm no fan of May but I have to admire her tenacity, she is dealing with the EU from a position of weakness while the people who should have her back are repeatedly stabbing her in it. If it were me I would have said "Fuck the lot of you and walked off" She must really want that job, I'm certain that she is going to have to be physically carried out of No 10 and her hands pried off the door frame on the way out.



It's not tenacity. She is drunk on power.


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 20, 2019)




----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> I'm no fan of May but I have to admire her tenacity, she is dealing with the EU from a position of weakness while the people who should have her back are repeatedly stabbing her in it. If it were me I would have said "Fuck the lot of you and walked off" She must really want that job, I'm certain that she is going to have to be physically carried out of No 10 and her hands pried off the door frame on the way out.


She's a power-crazed fuckwit that doesn't give a fuck about the future of the country. She's in it for her own career and glory, just like all cunting Tory scumbags. There is nothing to admire about her or her policies. She's a Tory, FFS.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> She's a power-crazed fuckwit that doesn't give a fuck about the future of the country. She's in it for her own career and glory, just like all cunting Tory scumbags. There is nothing to admire about her or her policies. She's a Tory, FFS.


This. And we must never forget Windrush in this. She's a nasty piece of work who deserves no sympathy or respect.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 20, 2019)

I don't think she's doing too well on the 'glory' front tbf.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> I'm no fan of May but I have to admire her tenacity, she is dealing with the EU from a position of weakness while the people who should have her back are repeatedly stabbing her in it. If it were me I would have said "Fuck the lot of you and walked off" She must really want that job, I'm certain that she is going to have to be physically carried out of No 10 and her hands pried off the door frame on the way out.



I don't think that's tenacity I think she's just not very bright.

E2a: or what editor said.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I don't think she's doing too well on the 'glory' front tbf.


Doesn't mean that isn't what she's after. The Prime Minister who selflessly sacrificed her own career, self-respect, honour, in order to deliver a brexit when the naysayers were telling her it was impossible.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 20, 2019)

If Theresa May's tenacity is admirable then MRSA is a really admirable infection.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Doesn't mean that isn't what she's after. The Prime Minister who selflessly sacrificed her own career, self-respect, honour, in order to deliver a brexit when the naysayers were telling her it was impossible.



It's a bit of a leap, becoming prime minister as an act of self-sabotage, but this does seem to be how her mind works.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> I'm no fan of May but I have to admire her tenacity, she is dealing with the EU from a position of weakness while the people who should have her back are repeatedly stabbing her in it. If it were me I would have said "Fuck the lot of you and walked off" She must really want that job, I'm certain that she is going to have to be physically carried out of No 10 and her hands pried off the door frame on the way out.


yes, she is tenacious. but drunks are tenacious. tenacity isn't in itself admirable. 
yes, she is dealing with the eu from a position of weakness. but she could have been in a much better position if only she had an ounce of nous.
she is going to have to be physically carried out of number 10. no doubt in a straitjacket.

she's a vile, stupid, ignorant woman who made her reputation at the home office from whence she departed before her culpability for all sorts of fuckwittery became apparent. her major piece of luck is so many, many people will blame cameron for this shitstorm in future. but she's presided over three years of drift, she's led this country to the brink of disaster, and while she might be applauded for that if anything decent looked likely to come out of it, her years at the home office setting up the hostile environment have made this country into a much more hateful place than it was on 22/6/2016 let alone 1/5/2010


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's a bit of a leap, becoming prime minister as an act of self-sabotage, but this does seem to be how her mind works.


Oh, when she became PM, I'm sure she had dreams of crushing Corbyn in the election before striding confidently straight through a vicious hard brexit to go down in history as a Great British Leader. All that changed on the night of the election in 2017.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

May go something like this!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, she is tenacious. but drunks are tenacious. tenacity isn't in itself admirable.
> yes, she is dealing with the eu from a position of weakness. but she could have been in a much better position if only she had an ounce of nous.
> she is going to have to be physically carried out of number 10. no doubt in a straitjacket.
> 
> she's a vile, stupid, ignorant woman who made her reputation at the home office from whence she departed before her culpability for all sorts of fuckwittery became apparent. her major piece of luck is so many, many people will blame cameron for this shitstorm in future. but she's presided over three years of drift, she's led this country to the brink of disaster, and while she might be applauded for that if anything decent looked likely to come out of it, her years at the home office setting up the hostile environment have made this country into a much more hateful place than it was on 22/6/2016 let alone 1/5/2010



Let's not forget that outside of the fiasco she's made of brexit her domestic policy achievements as PM have been non-existent. All May has done has been to oversee the continuation of catastrophic austerity economics and fire-sale privatisations. She's been a middle manager executing the policies of cunts, and a mediocre middle manager at that.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> To be fair they've also said they'd be cool with an extension of two years.



More nuanced than that - they've been saying they'd be fine with two years if that includes a renegotiation for a Norway type deal and UK participation euro elections. The subtext being that it would be a useful opportunity to ditch brexit entirely.

More recently however that message has changed - they don't want UK participation in the Euro elections because they belatedly realise that UKIP/whatever would sweep the floor, and that while they are a pain in the arse, if they group up with the expected influx of right wing anti-EU parties they could do damage to 'the project's.

The UK isn't the only one in a bind...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

kebabking said:


> More nuanced than that - they've been saying they'd be fine with two years if that includes a renegotiation for a Norway type deal and UK participation euro elections. The subtext being that it would be a useful opportunity to ditch brexit entirely.
> 
> More recently however that message has changed - they don't want UK participation in the Euro elections because they belatedly realise that UKIP/whatever would sweep the floor, and that while they are a pain in the arse, if they group up with the expected influx of right wing anti-EU parties they could do damage to 'the project's.
> 
> The UK isn't the only one in a bind...


Ways around that have been mooted, such as appointed MEPs or existing ones keeping their seats for an extra year, if the deadline were extended for a year. I guess for a two-year delay, that isn't so possible, but for the nine months half the cabinet appears to have wanted, very possible.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

kebabking said:


> More nuanced than that - they've been saying they'd be fine with two years if that includes a renegotiation for a Norway type deal and UK participation euro elections. The subtext being that it would be a useful opportunity to ditch brexit entirely.
> 
> More recently however that message has changed - they don't want UK participation in the Euro elections because they belatedly realise that UKIP/whatever would sweep the floor, and that while they are a pain in the arse, if they group up with the expected influx of right wing anti-EU parties they could do damage to 'the project's.
> 
> The UK isn't the only one in a bind...



Yeah totally I just meant that they'll be open to it - providing something changes. 

You raise a good point about the elections though - they've always been a huge source of political legitimacy for right wing parties but even more so now. The "end of the year" bit is interesting because presumably they've found a way that Britain could avoid participation in the Parliament, which as you say creates problems for them - but then once Britain is subject to European decisions without representation then that becomes a further useful tool for the "are you sure you won't reconsider" position.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> She's a power-crazed fuckwit that doesn't give a fuck about the future of the country.


And if she did give a "fuck about the future of the country" what would be different? And future of "the country" is such a thing possible? Is that how she, or any PM, should gauge such a thing?


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> And if she did give a "fuck about the future of the country" what would be different? And future of "the country" is such a thing possible? Is that how she, or any PM, should gauge such a thing?


You don't think there's any alternatives a decent leader with actual ideas could introduce into the debate? It's clear the country is bitterly divided over Brexit so where's her leadership? Where's her guidance? She's just blindly following shitty Tory policy irrespective of the immense damage it's going to cause to the country. She's fucking useless.


----------



## grit (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> You don't think there's any alternatives a decent leader with actual ideas could introduce into the debate?



Not at this stage of the process.


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

grit said:


> Not at this stage of the process.


So you're of the opinion that there's no one better than Maybot?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> You don't think there's any alternatives a decent leader with actual ideas could introduce into the debate? It's clear the country is bitterly divided over Brexit so where's her leadership? Where's her guidance? She's just blindly following shitty Tory policy irrespective of the immense damage it's going to cause to the country. She's fucking useless.


she's worse than useless, she's actively created this clusterfuck.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> So you're of the opinion that there's no one better than Maybot?


there is no one better than maybot if you want a situation so dismal the arrival of a policeman might actually make it better

this is the situation so dismal brendan behan could not conceive of it


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> You don't think there's any alternatives a decent leader with actual ideas could introduce into the debate? It's clear the country is bitterly divided over Brexit so where's her leadership? Where's her guidance? She's just blindly following shitty Tory policy irrespective of the immense damage it's going to cause to the country. She's fucking useless.


I think such a view is one that takes a very narrow liberal window. 

The problems I see with society will not be fixed by a "decent leader" who can give better "guidance". May may be "just blindly following shitty [party] policy" but so is every other party leader (and has been since year dot). I think talking about the "good of the country" is nonsense and regressive, May could (indeed has) equally well respond that it's for the "good of the country" for the result of referendum to be respected. It's the sort of rhetorical crap that politicians love.

I couldn't give a fuck about the good of the country indeed many of the measures I'd like to see the majority of people, and certainly majority of those in Westminster, would consider harmful to the country. If we object to May's (or whoever's) policies lets be honest and object to them because we dislike their aims and effects and leave the invoking of national good to the wankers in the HoC.


----------



## andysays (Mar 20, 2019)

Tusk to make statement at 16.00...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 20, 2019)

andysays said:


> Tusk to make statement at 16.00...



leaked draft of statement


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I think such a view is one that takes a very narrow liberal window.
> 
> The problems I see with society will not be fixed by a "decent leader" who can give better "guidance". May may be "just blindly following shitty [party] policy" but so is every other party leader (and has been since year dot). I think talking about the "good of the country" is nonsense and regressive, May could (indeed has) equally well respond that it's for the "good of the country" for the result of referendum to be respected. It's the sort of rhetorical crap that politicians love.
> 
> I couldn't give a fuck about the good of the country indeed many of the measures I'd like to see the majority of people, and certainly majority of those in Westminster, would consider harmful to the country. If we object to May's (or whoever's) policies lets be honest and object to them because we dislike their aims and effects and leave the invoking of national good to the wankers in the HoC.



To be fair while you're right that the problems in society that led to the referendum result would not be solved by a "decent leader" someone with a bit more bottle and nous than May might have managed to get through all this without getting in quite such a mess. You can understand why she went for the snap GE given the polls - she wanted a huge majority that would allow her to scrape through this. Having failed to get that she should (from her perspective at least) have shifted her tactics (although from my perspective I'm loving the carnage).


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> ...The "end of the year" bit is interesting because presumably they've found a way that Britain could avoid participation in the Parliament, which as you say creates problems for them - but then once Britain is subject to European decisions without representation then that becomes a further useful tool for the "are you sure you won't reconsider" position.


I think there's a legal problem with this (read it a few days ago iirc).  EU fears they could be having rulings challenged if the UK has no seat at council but remains a member.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

andysays said:


> Tusk to make statement at 16.00...


----------



## kabbes (Mar 20, 2019)

The thing with May as a leader is that she seems to be failing by the standards of the ideology she represents.  Namely, the result is uncertainty and paralysis, which capital hates.  So she’s shit from the perspective of those who don’t share her ideology but she’s also shit from the perspective of those who DO share her ideology.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 20, 2019)

kabbes said:


> The thing with May as a leader is that she seems to be failing by the standards of the ideology she represents.  Namely, the result is uncertainty and paralysis, which capital hates.  So she’s shit from the perspective of those who don’t share her ideology but she’s also shit from the perspective of those who DO share her ideology.


Or, to put it another way, she's shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Or, to put it another way, she's shit.


to say that is to be rude about shit


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

link to live video feed President of the European Council - Press statement by President Tusk on Brexit

(16:05) not started yet


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> To be fair while you're right that the problems in society that led to the referendum result would not be solved by a "decent leader" someone with a bit more bottle and nous than May might have managed to get through all this without getting in quite such a mess. You can understand why she went for the snap GE given the polls - she wanted a huge majority that would allow her to scrape through this. Having failed to get that she should (from her perspective at least) have shifted her tactics (although from my perspective I'm loving the carnage).


To what? As killer b has said previously. Once the 2017 GE decided the current parliamentary arithmetic it was always going to be nightmare to get something through. I don't think the issues this government are really that different to other minority govs (see Aus hung parliament, UK hung parliament in 70s), it just that they are trying to get some some major and very complicated pieces of legislation through.


----------



## andysays (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> You don't think there's any alternatives a decent leader with actual ideas could introduce into the debate? It's clear the country is bitterly divided over Brexit so where's her leadership? Where's her guidance? She's just blindly following shitty Tory policy irrespective of the immense damage it's going to cause to the country. She's fucking useless.


Given your previously stated views on Brexit, I'm not sure what ideas she or any alternate PM might suggest which would satisfy you, other than calling the whole thing off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

all over now


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 20, 2019)

Stalemate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

andysays said:


> Given your previously stated views on Brexit, I'm not sure what alternatives she or any alternate PM might suggest which would satisfy you, other than calling the whole thing off.


calling the whole thing off followed by immediate hari-kiri


----------



## kabbes (Mar 20, 2019)

So there it is.  Extension if and only if MV3 passes

I guess that opens the doors for MV3 to happen.  And it’ll bring more into the fold of voting for it.  Will it swing 75 MPs though?  Seems unlikely but who knows?


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 20, 2019)

Basically article 50 extention only with guaranteed positive vote on May's deal.


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

andysays said:


> Given your previously stated views on Brexit, I'm not sure what alternatives she or any alternate PM might suggest which would satisfy you, other than calling the whole thing off.


I wasn't expecting them to tailor a solution to my particular desires, but there's been no attempt whatsoever to clarify exactly what is going on in terms that ordinary people can understand, neither has there been any attempt to engage with the tens of millions of who visited against this farrago. Buf if you think no one could have done a better job, I'll just have to disagree. She is a monumentally useless Tory shitbag.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 20, 2019)

However what was it Bercow said about passing the sane bill in parliamentary session? Basically he can force May's resignation.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> To what? As killer b has said previously. Once the 2017 GE decided the current parliamentary arithmetic it was always going to be nightmare to get something through. I don't think the issues this government are really that different to other minority govs (see Aus hung parliament, UK hung parliament in 70s), it just that they are trying to get some some major and very complicated pieces of legislation through.



By dropping the red lines/not insisting on them in the first place and canvassing for the votes of Blairites to ram whatever she could get through, through. 

A non-Brexit that could be spun as Brexit was an option. I'm not saying that would have been 'good' just it would have been an option.


----------



## Old Spark (Mar 20, 2019)

May to speak to the nation tonight rumour!!#?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Basically article 50 extention only with guaranteed positive vote on May's deal.


that's that then


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

Old Spark said:


> May to speak to the nation tonight rumour!!#?



I’ll catch it on the third attempt.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> By dropping the red lines/not insisting on them in the first place and canvassing for the votes of Blairites to ram whatever she could get through, through.
> 
> A non-Brexit that could be spun as Brexit was an option. I'm not saying that would have been 'good' just it would have been an option.


Yep. But she needed to have decided to do that right back at the start of this parliament. She's tried to be hard and soft at the same time. A non-Newtonian fluid brexit.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

Old Spark said:


> May to speak to the nation tonight rumour!!#?



On second thoughts she really should have a word with herself.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

BBC alert saying EU will only grant a short A50 extension if PM can pass her Brexit deal before next Friday.

Lol. That’s why she wanted an extension: she can’t.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 20, 2019)

So, that will further entrench the no deal headbangers, and give fuck all other choice to the others. Will that be enough of a swing to get it through?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> BBC alert saying EU will only grant a short A50 extension if PM can pass her Brexit deal before next Friday.
> 
> Lol. That’s why she wanted an extension: she can’t.


Would she have the front to hold the vote on 29 itself?


----------



## andysays (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> I wasn't expecting them to tailor a solution to my particular desires, but there's been no attempt whatsoever to clarify exactly what is going on in terms that ordinary people can understand, neither has there been any attempt to engage with the tens of millions of who visited against this farrago. Buf if you think no one could have done a better job, I'll just have to disagree. She is a monumentally useless Tory shitbag.


I certainly don't think no one could have done a better job, and I do think other approaches might have had more success, but given that 'success' in this case would be something you're dead against, I'm puzzled why you seem to be complaining that May hasn't yet succeeded in delivering Brexit.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Would she have the front to hold the vote on 29 itself?



I think she'd have the front to hold it in the morning of the 29th then again in the afternoon tbh.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 20, 2019)

Old Spark said:


> May to speak to the nation tonight rumour!!#?


Country?


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 20, 2019)

Does anyone think Bercow will allow a 3rd vote? I'd say some remainers would rather vote for MV3 than crashing out. 

Has Bercow said hard no?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Does anyone think Bercow will allow a 3rd vote? I'd say some remainers would rather vote for MV3 than crashing out.
> 
> Has Bercow said hard no?


There is certainly an argument that the EU is interfering with British democracy with this stipulation, given what Bercow said on Monday. There is always the 'revoke A50' option, of course, right up to 10.59 pm on 29 March. I wonder how thinkable that may become in the next week and a bit. But it remains simply untrue that crashing out can happen 'by accident' - it is within the govt/parliament power to stop this whenever they choose. Crashing out will also be a choice.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 20, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So, that will further entrench the no deal headbangers, and give fuck all other choice to the others. Will that be enough of a swing to get it through?


This is only about a short extension.  Could be more ears for a longer extension (although kebabking 's earlier point about a toxic UK representation if we participated in the Euro elections does complicate that a bit  ).


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

andysays said:


> I certainly don't think no one could have done a better job, and I do think other approaches might have had more success, but given that 'success' in this case would be something you're dead against, I'm puzzled why you seem to be complaining that May hasn't yet succeeded in delivering Brexit.


Because her incompetence will probably result in the UK ending up with a worse deal, and one that may negatively impact on the lives of many people. Doesn't that bother you?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> Because her incompetence will probably result in the UK ending up with a worse deal, and one that may negatively impact on the lives of many people. Doesn't that bother you?



The only deal offered was always going to be 'bad' (for want of a better word) and if it wasn't a deal you considered bad it would be not really Brexit at all. So to be fair it could be argued you're either annoyed that she hasn't prepared effectively for no deal or that she hasn't managed to come up with a non-Brexit that could be sold as Brexit.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 20, 2019)

Yikes.  It's taken quite a No Deal swerve, hasn't it?  Anything softer than May-deal now requires a hasty PM resignation and a successor willing to compromise I would have thought.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 20, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> Yikes.  It's taken quite a No Deal swerve, hasn't it?  Anything softer than May-deal now requires a hasty PM resignation and a successor willing to compromise I would have thought.


What's the timescale for appointing any successor to May?


----------



## andysays (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There is certainly an argument that the EU is interfering with British democracy with this stipulation, given what Bercow said on Monday. There is always the 'revoke A50' option, of course, right up to 10.59 pm on 29 March. I wonder how thinkable that may become in the next week and a bit. But it remains simply untrue that crashing out can happen 'by accident' - it is within the govt/parliament power to stop this whenever they choose. Crashing out will also be a choice.


I'm sure some may seek to make that argument,  but I'm surprised to hear you suggest it.

The EU aren't interfering with British democracy, they're simply restating their previous position. This situation is entirely predictable and is the result of May's attempts to get what she wants by running the clock down and leaving no time for anything other than her hoped for capitulation.

No one is blinking, not parliament, not the EU


----------



## andysays (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> Because her incompetence will probably result in the UK ending up with a worse deal, and one that may negatively impact on the lives of many people. Doesn't that bother you?


Her incompetence will just as likely result in no Brexit at all


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Would she have the front to hold the vote on 29 itself?


BBC saying:

"norman smith
✔
@BBCNormanS
 The @eucopresident  has just massively raised the stakes. Its now  May's deal or we leave the EU next Friday with NO deal. #takecover"
https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> calling the whole thing off followed by immediate hari-kiri




She couldn’t get it through!


----------



## klang (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> May may be


By May maybe May may be May.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

I'm confused about which thread I'm reading.  Can we pick one and stick to it?


----------



## philosophical (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> BBC saying:
> 
> "norman smith
> ✔
> ...


Yet Bercow has said he wouldn't allow a third vote on May's deal so there we have it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> BBC alert saying EU will only grant a short A50 extension if PM can pass her Brexit deal before next Friday.
> 
> Lol. That’s why she wanted an extension: she can’t.



Nice to know it's not only British politicians who are immune to basic logic.

Not so nice to know that our fate lies with the, and let's be fair to him, total cunt that is Donald Tusk.

He's basically chosen for us hasn't he? It'll be May's deal now, which was basically dictated to her by the EU in the first place. Taking back control. Give me strength


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

No deal looming large and it’s just what the lousy bastards have been aiming for all along. And parliament just let it happen. The spurious best interests of the country spiel is now invalid.
Mays deal will be seen as lifebelt that saves us!


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

philosophical said:


> Yet Bercow has said he wouldn't allow a third vote on May's deal so there we have it.


See you later. Off to Tesco for tinned tomatoes.


----------



## Santino (Mar 20, 2019)

Who is the (non-Tory) MP who looks like the barmaid who used to work at the Rover's Return and had a son called Jamie and left to marry a nice bloke who looked a bit like Lard off of Mark and Lard?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

Old Spark said:


> May to speak to the nation tonight rumour!!#?


Which nation?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There is certainly an argument that the EU is interfering with British democracy with this stipulation, given what Bercow said on Monday. There is always the 'revoke A50' option, of course, right up to 10.59 pm on 29 March. I wonder how thinkable that may become in the next week and a bit. But it remains simply untrue that crashing out can happen 'by accident' - it is within the govt/parliament power to stop this whenever they choose. Crashing out will also be a choice.



Looking forward to the papers sticking up for Tusk's unilateralism mere moments after they excoriated Bercow for the exact same thing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Which nation?



The United Kingdom of New Poland.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

Santino said:


> Who is the (non-Tory) MP who looks like the barmaid who used to work at the Rover's Return and had a son called Jamie and left to marry a nice bloke who looked a bit like Lard off of Mark and Lard?


Do you mean the Corrie actor who was in Hear’say? Kim something.

I’m not sure who the MP might be though.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Which nation?



The one in one nation conservativism.


----------



## Santino (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Do you mean the Corrie actor who was in Hear’say? Kim something.
> 
> I’m not sure who the MP be though.


No, it was a few years before Kim. Remember Nasty Nigel though? Great days.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> See you later. Off to Tesco for tinned tomatoes.



Get me a Fanta mate.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 20, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> What's the timescale for appointing any successor to May?


I don't know for sure, and I've just double-checked all this, but I think she would be immediately replaced by a member of her own government, and, while there is a means for determining who this is, it doesn't seem to be particularly clear - for instance there isn't a current Deputy Prime-minister or First Secretary of State! This is because, in fantastic British fashion, they can just decide whether to bestow these titles or not, at whim.

Then there would be a Tory leadership election.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

> At a highly charged Prime Minister's Questions earlier, Mrs May said MPs had "indulged themselves on Europe for too long" and voters "deserved better".



Sometimes I can't believe this is the real world. Nobody else seems to be acting like it's the real world.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

Santino said:


> No, it was a few years before Kim. Remember Nasty Nigel though? Great days.


Oh, Frankie Baldwin? Jamie was her step son. She had an affair with him. Her?

She was married to Bradley Walsh. (He keeps coming into this...)


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2019)

she better not resign during the chase.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Get me a Fanta mate.


It’s just a Tesco Express. They’ve got Irn Bru, ginger beer, Coke, Lucozade. But nothing niche.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> The one in one nation conservativism.


No one then

One nation tories are dead and gone
They're with auld heathy in the grave


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> No one then
> 
> One nation tories are dead and gone
> They're with auld heathy in the grave



Hussar!


----------



## agricola (Mar 20, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> I don't know for sure, and I've just double-checked all this, but I think she would be immediately replaced by a member of her own government, and, while there is a means for determining who this is, it doesn't seem to be particularly clear - for instance there isn't a current Deputy Prime-minister or First Secretary of State! This is because, in fantastic British fashion, they can just decide whether to bestow these titles or not, at whim.
> 
> Then there would be a Tory leadership election.



Not necessarily; there is precedent for the leader of the party in government not being the PM (Chamberlain being the most famous).  It comes down to who could form a majority in the Commons, and therefore a government.


----------



## grit (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> So you're of the opinion that there's no one better than Maybot?



I've of the opinion at this late stage, its not going to have a big impact on the outcome. This is something that I've found bizarre watching from afar. The whole house doing votes to ban a no deal brexit, which actually change nothing. With how things look right now, the UK doesn't even really get a choice. If the extension is declined, which actually looks possible, there is simply no time to do anything else other than crash out.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> she better not resign during the chase.


See! Bradley again!


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> No one then
> 
> One nation tories are dead and gone
> They're with auld heathy in the grave



Yet again I omitted the


----------



## grit (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There is certainly an argument that the EU is interfering with British democracy with this stipulation, given what Bercow said on Monday.



There really isint, they made their offer with its terms. Its on the UK to figure it out.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s just a Tesco Express. They’ve got Irn Bru, ginger beer, Coke, Lucozade. But nothing niche.



Okay fella, will make do.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

grit said:


> I've of the opinion at this late stage, its not going to have a big impact on the outcome. This is something that I've found bizarre watching from afar. The whole house doing votes to ban a no deal brexit, which actually change nothing. With how things look right now, the UK doesn't even really get a choice. If the extension is declined, which actually looks possible, there is simply no time to do anything else other than crash out.


Yes, there is. There is time to revoke A50.


----------



## grit (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, there is. There is time to revoke A50.



That is true, but seems extraordinarily unlikely and I'd actually have some sympathy for the Brexit supports in going fucking spare over it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Okay fella, will make do.


Irn Bru? Everyone likes Irn Bru. (Except Mrs LR. She’d have ginger beer).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

grit said:


> There really isint, they made their offer with its terms. Its on the UK to figure it out.


Well I guess they can't order May to resign so that someone else can negotiate.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

grit said:


> That is true, but seems extraordinarily unlikely and I'd actually have some sympathy for the Brexit supports in going fucking spare over it.


Why? srs question. It seems more likely than crashing out. I have no sympathy whatever for anyone who would rather the UK crash out without a deal than for A50 to be revoked (and nobody, but nobody, campaigned for brexit on the basis of anything other than doing it with an agreed deal), if it comes to those being the only two choices on the table.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Irn Bru? Everyone likes Irn Bru. (Except Mrs LR. She’d have ginger beer).



Diet if poss, I need to get fit for my picketing on the forthcoming barricades.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 20, 2019)

agricola said:


> Not necessarily; there is precedent for the leader of the party in government not being the PM (Chamberlain being the most famous).  It comes down to who could form a majority in the Commons, and therefore a government.


May can also resign and stay on as caretaker PM .


----------



## agricola (Mar 20, 2019)

grit said:


> That is true, but seems extraordinarily unlikely.



It does, but it is the only option she has to get a majority for her deal - there is no other way of getting the ERG and the rest on board than to threaten Brexit itself.  

I don't want to start quoting _Dune_ on a thread without previous _Dune_ quotes, but to paraphrase slightly "she who can destroy a thing, controls a thing".  They all know what destroying the dream of Brexit* would do to the party, and they know she is going to be out on her ear whatever happens.  

* real dream may differ from dream advertised


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Diet if poss, I need to get fit for my picketing on the forthcoming barricades.


It’s all diet now.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

Dominic Grieve laying into May at the moment. He’s ashamed of the conservatives and being a member!


----------



## grit (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why? srs question. It seems more likely than crashing out. I have no sympathy whatever for anyone who would rather the UK crash out without a deal than for A50 to be revoked, if it comes to those being the only two choices on the table.



Over turning a referendum like that just feels incomprehensible, granted there is no precedent for the current situation, but even with the current madness it doesn't seem likely. Its never been seriously tabled as an option, I would have expected people to have been "warmed up" to the possibility prior to now.

Regarding having sympathy, the fact is a referendum was held, the public voted and made a decision. Regardless of my, yours or anyone elses feelings on the result, the referendum should have some integrity, otherwise whats the fucking point in bothering with them at all?

Put the shoe on the other foot, imagine remain won, but the gov decided to leave anyway. Remain supporters would go batshit. I've had this debate with several people during this process, there is no shortage of people who are all for democracy until it doesn't suit them, well frankly they can fuck off.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s all diet now.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s just a Tesco Express. They’ve got Irn Bru, ginger beer, Coke, Lucozade. But nothing niche.


Makes me sad that Irn Bru is now considered so mainstream .


----------



## Santino (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh, Frankie Baldwin? Jamie was her step son. She had an affair with him. Her?
> 
> She was married to Bradley Walsh. (He keeps coming into this...)


No, it was a different Jamie, quite a bit younger.


----------



## Santino (Mar 20, 2019)

Found her: the MP is Tracy Brabin who, er, played barmaid Tricia Armstrong in Coronation Street.

Tracy Brabin - Wikipedia


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

Santino said:


> No, it was a different Jamie, quite a bit younger.


You fucker! Tricia?  

That actually _is_ her. But you knew that, right?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 20, 2019)

So, Mays deal - which nobody wants, or crash out - which a massive majority in parliament doesn't want.

Yet revoking A50 is somehow seen as the "not possible" option because people will be cross.

The world is fucking mad.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 20, 2019)

What's the problem? Easiest deal in history.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

To be fair to the EU here, if May showed no signs of changing her red lines in order to come up with something that might get past parliament, there really wasn't any point granting an extension. The notion of asking the people's faithful representatives in the house of commons for input was dismissed out of hand, and May won't talk to any party besides the fucking DUP. It was always just going to be same shit, different day. The only remaining question was which day.


----------



## Santino (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> You fucker! Tricia?
> 
> That actually _is_ her. But you knew that, right?


No, had no idea.


----------



## grit (Mar 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> To be fair to the EU here, if May showed no signs of changing her red lines in order to come up with something that might get past parliament, there really wasn't any point granting an extension.



Very true and it while it might be of little to no concern of many posters here, an extension has a cost to the EU and its members. The rest of us have to endure another few months of wondering and trying to prepare for whatever chaos in west minister brings.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 20, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Dominic Grieve laying into May at the moment. He’s ashamed of the conservatives and being a member!


Why doesn't he resign & join the Tiggers!?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> Makes me sad that Irn Bru is now considered so mainstream .



Even the girders used are imports!


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

Santino said:


> No, had no idea.


She stood in Jo Cox’s seat.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Irn Bru? Everyone likes Irn Bru.



Beg to differ.

Seems to me that Tusk said that the only way a _short _extension would be granted is if the WA was ratified. He said nothing about a long extension, I don't think


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Why doesn't he resign & join the Tiggers!?



I couldn’t possibly comment on that issue as I unlike most Tories have pride and principles.
I am just enjoying the spectacle of the bastards tearing each other to bits.


----------



## grit (Mar 20, 2019)

With things moving so fast this has become dated, but it got a proper laugh out of me.


----------



## Patteran (Mar 20, 2019)

Leo Varadkar boiling piss by confirming May will make a statement before May does. Coming less than a week after he took his husband to meet Mike Pence, I'd say he's enjoying himself. Glad someone is - just a shame it's him.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> By dropping the red lines/not insisting on them in the first place and canvassing for the votes of Blairites to ram whatever she could get through, through.
> 
> A non-Brexit that could be spun as Brexit was an option. I'm not saying that would have been 'good' just it would have been an option.


I think that dropping the red lines you're basically asking for a leader of the Tory party to engineer a split in their party. It wasn't going to happen.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I think that dropping the red lines you're basically asking for a leader of the Tory party to engineer a split in their party. It wasn't going to happen.



Yeah, what I'm saying is basically that it would have been possible to threaten that. And given the number of anti-Corbyn Labour MP's, to balance the threat of a split with the threat of Tory Brexiteers being frozen out of govt. 

Major got the Maastricht treaty through by threatening to collapse the government remember. Hardball was an option.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Yeah, what I'm saying is basically that it would have been possible to threaten that. And given the number of anti-Corbyn Labour MP's, to balance the threat of a split with the threat of Tory Brexiteers being frozen out of govt.
> 
> Major got the Maastricht treaty through by threatening to collapse the government remember. Hardball was an option.


But Major had a (admittedly narrow) majority. Once you have a hung parliament backbenchers know they have greater power and know they can use it. 

I think any threat that May made to go with centrist Labour MPs for a "softer" Brexit would have either been obviously empty or led her to losing a VoNC. (And I'm not sure there were ever the numbers of Labour MPs to make such a threat viable if the Shadow Cabinet whipped against a deal).


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 20, 2019)

So, (similar to what the beeb bloke just tweeted) -

No Deal - ruled out by the House of Commons
May Deal - no majority reached (vote also possibly nixed by Speaker)
Short extension - ruled out by EU
Long extension - ruled out by PM


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Mar 20, 2019)

Wine's in the fridge ready for her speech. Tell me her throat's still bad


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> But Major had a (admittedly narrow) majority. Once you have a hung parliament backbenchers know they have greater power and know they can use it.
> 
> I think any threat that May made to go with centrist Labour MPs for a "softer" Brexit would have either been obviously empty or led her to losing a VoNC. (And I'm not sure there were ever the numbers of Labour MPs to make such a threat viable if the Shadow Cabinet whipped against a deal).


There are two separate, and conflicting, issues there, though: a) doing brexit, and b) keeping a minority govt in power. It's already been in power for nearly two years, which is a long time for a minority govt to survive. She's clearly prioritised b) over a).


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> But Major had a (admittedly narrow) majority. Once you have a hung parliament backbenchers know they have greater power and know they can use it.
> 
> I think any threat that May made to go with centrist Labour MPs for a "softer" Brexit would have either been obviously empty or led her to losing a VoNC. (And I'm not sure there were ever the numbers of Labour MPs to make such a threat viable if the Shadow Cabinet whipped against a deal).



May has a narrow majority with the DUP - neither May or Major had a majority for what they wanted to pass though. 

Anyway. All academic now.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

Nine Bob Note said:


> Wine's in the fridge ready for her speech. Tell me her throat's still bad


If she goes on telly to slag off parliament, we're really in a bad place. Populism at its worst.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If she goes on telly to slag off parliament, we're really in a bad place. Populism at its worst.



Question asked earlier in House to Bercow, if House is still sitting why isn’t May making her statement in the House? 
Apparently it’s her decision, but she’s so oblivious to anyone else her obstinacy and gall hopefully will show her for what she is.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If she goes on telly to slag off parliament, we're really in a bad place. Populism at its worst.


Sort of thing I'm expecting tbh .


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If she goes on telly to slag off parliament, we're really in a bad place. Populism at its worst.



Oh come on we all hate Parliament.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Oh come on we all hate Parliament.



I liked their earlier work.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Oh come on we all hate Parliament.


Not as much as I hate Theresa May, tbf. A r/w populist with contempt for their country's democratic mechanisms of checks and balances is not a good thing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Oh come on we all hate Parliament.


Wish I'd thought to say that.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not as much as I hate Theresa May, tbf. A r/w populist with contempt for their country's democratic mechanisms of checks and balances is not a good thing.



I don't think you can really call her a populist. And let's be fair our 'checks and balances' are a joke even by the standards of 'checks and balances'. 

With some exceptions on the Labour benches I hate them all.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are two separate, and conflicting, issues there, though: a) doing brexit, and b) keeping a minority govt in power. It's already been in power for nearly two years, which is a long time for a minority govt to survive*.* She's clearly prioritised b) over a).


I don't know if she has prioritised (b) over (a). I think she want's the deliver a deal that keeps the Tory party (and government) together, and that as such they can't be separated. And I don't think any other Tory (or Labour, SNP, LD, PC) leader could have done differently and remained leader.

Minor point but on the timescale I don't think 2 years is particularly long. Gillard's minority gov survived a full term (3 years), Wilson survived for 2 years and that was without the FTPA which makes minority government much more stable.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I don't think you can really call her a populist.


If she goes on telly to slag off parliament, that's exactly what she will be.

I'm not defending the UK system, btw, merely pointing out the danger of leaders who see fit to abuse it from within.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If she goes on telly to slag off parliament, that's exactly what she will be.


Oh come on this is cobblers. As daft as the Guardians nonsense about her being a greater populist than Trump.

Executives complaining about legislators does not a populist make.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If she goes on telly to slag off parliament, that's exactly what she will be.
> 
> I'm not defending the UK system, btw, merely pointing out the danger of leaders who see fit to abuse it from within.



It's more apportioning blame really. She can legitimately say "I got a deal and they wouldn't vote for it". Remember it's mainly the ERG and the DUP that stopped it passing. Whether people wanted her deal and will be angry at MP's who didn't vote for it is another question.


----------



## chilango (Mar 20, 2019)

May is not a populist in any shape or form. Is she going to try and play that card in her address tonight?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

In general, it is usually agreed that populists of both left and right tend to rail against 'elites'. May is not really the railing against elites type.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If she goes on telly to slag off parliament, we're really in a bad place. Populism at its worst.



This whole shitshow is on her and the 'red lines' she pulled out of her arsehole with no mandate or consensus.


----------



## tommers (Mar 20, 2019)

When is she going to say the same things again?

7 or something?

Ah. 8.


----------



## xenon (Mar 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why? srs question. It seems more likely than crashing out. I have no sympathy whatever for anyone who would rather the UK crash out without a deal than for A50 to be revoked (and nobody, but nobody, campaigned for brexit on the basis of anything other than doing it with an agreed deal), if it comes to those being the only two choices on the table.




 How does that happen. The government aren’t going to withdraw A50.  May is setting the scene to blame Parliament in the event of a crash out. Her stuff today. How does Parliament  Force a withdrawal of article 50?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 20, 2019)

Nothing has changed etc.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 20, 2019)

How is she going to put her deal in front of parliament for the third time when afaikt it hasn't changed? Have I missed something?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

xenon said:


> How does that happen. The government aren’t going to withdraw A50.  May is setting the scene to blame Parliament in the event of a crash out. Her stuff today. How does Parliament  Force a withdrawal of article 50?



Same way they forced her to ask for an extension, just amend something I think. Unless I've understood that wrong? The reason they haven't done it is because they don't want to be blamed for cancelling Brexit. And I think she would rather blame Parliament for the cancellation of Brexit than for a 'crash out'.


----------



## chilango (Mar 20, 2019)

xenon said:


> How does that happen. The government aren’t going to withdraw A50.  May is setting the scene to blame Parliament in the event of a crash out. Her stuff today. How does Parliament  Force a withdrawal of article 50?



I think May is setting the scene to quit and allow Parliament to revoke A50. Everybody can the "plausibly" blame someone else for Brexit not happening and they can all bluff out the minor shit storm that follows hoping that the blame is spread around enough to avoid any particular Party taking the electoral flak for it.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 20, 2019)

chilango said:


> I think May is setting the scene to quit and allow Parliament to revoke A50. Everybody can the "plausibly" blame someone else for Brexit not happening and they can all bluff out the minor shit storm that follows hoping that the blame is spread around enough to avoid any particular Party taking the electoral flak for it.


I really want this to be true but I'm not going to hold my breath.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

chilango said:


> I think May is setting the scene to quit and allow Parliament to revoke A50. Everybody can the "plausibly" blame someone else for Brexit not happening and they can all bluff out the minor shit storm that follows hoping that the blame is spread around enough to avoid any particular Party taking the electoral flak for it.



It probably will be too - so many figures in the Tory party that can be blamed as well as all the Labour 'Remainers'. Even the ERG and the DUP can be blamed for refusing to vote for the deal. The FBPE crowd have quite possibly done Corbyn a massive favour by raging about him not doing more to cancel Brexit. Not that he won't still cop a lot of flak anyway. 

The general level of faith in the political system won't be great of course. But then - and this can't be stressed enough - _it wasn't anyway and that's why Leave won. _


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I really want this to be true but I'm not going to hold my breath.



Remember it might be the only thing that can keep the Tory party together. 

Although I say _might. _


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

weltweit said:


> How is she going to put her deal in front of parliament for the third time when afaikt it hasn't changed? Have I missed something?



Someone has missed something but I don't think it's you.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

weltweit said:


> How is she going to put her deal in front of parliament for the third time when afaikt it hasn't changed? Have I missed something?



Parliament could vote to overrule the speaker, or she could insert a clause that made it different, like No Deal or Revoke A50 or WA Passes Subject to Referendum. 

I think anyway. I'm mostly guessing.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So, that will further entrench the no deal headbangers, and give fuck all other choice to the others. Will that be enough of a swing to get it through?


I'm just catching up with the latest, via this thread. Yes, that's my immediate take on it.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

I don't think so. Threats to move vote to revoke A50 if Parliament cannot agree an alternative strategy from the small parties. They're meeting May now.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 20, 2019)

Well, they've finally mentioned the unmentionable, will be interesting to see if anyone important now dares to.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 20, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> What's the problem? Easiest deal in history.



She clearly didn't speak slowly and LOUDLY enough to the German car bosses.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

Anybody seen owt of Cameron today?


----------



## Argonia (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> No one then
> 
> One nation tories are dead and gone
> They're with auld heathy in the grave



Nice to see Aleister back, Pickman's


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Nice to see Aleister back, Pickman's


The other fella didn't feel right


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

My guess the erg plums are going in two opposite directions at the moment. Faction 1 shitting their kecks and ringing the chief whip to see how they sign up to mv3 - and the other doing selfies on the white cliffs of dover dressed in Dads Army uniforms (jrm doing a bad Sgt Wilson). Bercow will be simultaneously loving it whilst employing a food taster specialised in ricin poisoning (or whatever we have left at Porton Down).


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> My guess the erg plums are going in two opposite directions at the moment. Faction 1 shitting their kecks and ringing the chief whip to see how they sign up to mv3 - and the other doing selfies on the white cliffs of dover dressed in Dads Army uniforms (jrm doing a bad Sgt Wilson). Bercow will be simultaneously loving it whilst employing a food taster specialised in ricin poisoning (or whatever we have left at Porton Down).


Yeah I think this is probably pretty accurate.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 20, 2019)

I'm beginning to wonder if TM will nuke Dublin shortly before she walks to the podium in Downing Street....


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

There's a solution to hand!

Caller’s Solution To Post-Brexit Irish Border Problem? Invade Ireland... - LBC


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Bercow will be


climbing into a sports bag for a wank, as he does all the time your honour.


----------



## grit (Mar 20, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> So, (similar to what the beeb bloke just tweeted) -
> 
> No Deal - ruled out by the House of Commons



Not even close to ruled out, a preference has been expressed, that vote as mentioned previously was close to pointless. In fact at the moment it’s the default outcome


----------



## philosophical (Mar 20, 2019)

She will think she is going over the heads of everybody and appealing to the people, 'my beloved 17.4 million people' will probably be her opening line before she comes out with the same old guff.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 20, 2019)

grit said:


> Not even close to ruled out, a preference has been expressed, that vote as mentioned previously was close to pointless. In fact at the moment it’s the default outcome


Yeah, I do know.  Similarly MV3 hasn't been 'ruled out'.  I think the point being made is that somebody's 'ruling' is bound to be trampled over.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

philosophical said:


> She will think she is going over the heads of everybody


Yeh she's pissing on us all


----------



## ska invita (Mar 20, 2019)

Despite all the you can only have x if y chat everything is still on the table isn't it? Everything, as in every possible outcome.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Despite all the you can only have x if y chat everything is still on the table isn't it? Everything, as in every possible outcome.


The world is our oyster


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 20, 2019)

Well fuck knows. 

I still feel like there will be some sort of GNU somewhere along the line. But fuck knows.


----------



## Cloo (Mar 20, 2019)

So now we leave next Friday with No Deal or on 30th June with May's Deal? Wtf is the point of that?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Well fuck knows.
> 
> I still feel like there will be some sort of GNU somewhere along the line. But fuck knows.


A GNU? And maybe an ibex


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

Cloo said:


> So now we leave next Friday with No Deal or on 30th June with May's Deal? Wtf is the point of that?


There is no point


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 20, 2019)

The meeting with the opposition parties went well, Corbyn walked out because the Tiggers were represented there.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2019)

they aren't even a party yet so wtf. Just rolling it out for these half dozen chancers ffs


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

If you want to see the abject depths to which theresa may has fallen you can do no better than read her letter to donald tusk seeking an a.50 extension to the end of june. In full: May's Brexit delay letter to EU I have never seen such a pathetic meandering mess sent by one adult to another. It is utterly abysmal


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The meeting with the opposition parties went well, Corbyn walked out because the Tiggers were represented there.


This is why we'll get no deal


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

If it is true on the one hand good on him, showing more bottle than I thought, one on the other he's going to get crucified in the press.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> There's a solution to hand!
> 
> Caller’s Solution To Post-Brexit Irish Border Problem? Invade Ireland... - LBC


OOOOHHKKAAAYYY 
That's certainly thinking outside the box, possibly after the box fell on his head but definitely a new angle on the problem.


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> If you want to see the abject depths to which theresa may has fallen you can do no better than read her letter to donald tusk seeking an a.50 extension to the end of june. In full: May's Brexit delay letter to EU I have never seen such a pathetic meandering mess sent by one adult to another. It is utterly abysmal




Will forward you some whatsapps from me and Badgers


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> If it is true on the one hand good on him, showing more bottle than I thought, one on the other he's going to get crucified in the press.



It is true, and whilst I have no fucking time for the Tiggers, the SNP, LDs, PC & Greens put up with them being part of the meeting, only Corbyn throw his toys out of his pram, or at least that is how it will be portrayed.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 20, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> they aren't even a party yet so wtf. Just rolling it out for these half dozen chancers ffs


There are currently 21 Independents in the HoC (not all TIGgers of course) more than any actual party bar Tories, Labour or SNP. I get Corby doesn't like Chuka but he has no legitimate beef with him being there if the Indepedents are all agreed he shoud be.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

TBH, if I turned up somewhere and Chuka was there, I'd bail too


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

...and out come the fucking melts.



> Press Association reports that Liberal Democrat leader Sir Vince Cable said about Jeremy Corbyn’s walkout from the cross-party meeting: “That is rather a strange way to behave in a national crisis.”
> 
> Chuka Umunna, spokesman for The Independent Group, said: “I find it extraordinary behaviour in a national crisis.”


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 20, 2019)

Forgive the ignorance - I very rarely look at the news now - but what is a Tigger?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

Balbi said:


> TBH, if I turned up somewhere and Chuka was there, I'd bail too


Well after giving him a kicking.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Well after giving him a kicking.



He's already a big enough victim, no need to scuff my trainers.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 20, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Forgive the ignorance - I very rarely look at the news now - but what is a Tigger?



The Independent Group of MPs.

TIG = Tiggers.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Forgive the ignorance - I very rarely look at the news now - but what is a Tigger?


A member of The Independent Group - the slugs that left Labour and the Tories to set up their own group. 


MickiQ said:


> There are currently 21 Independents in the HoC (not all TIGgers of course) more than any actual party bar Tories, Labour or SNP. I get Corby doesn't like Chuka but he has no legitimate beef with him being there if the Indepedents are all agreed he shoud be.


Where is there any evidence that Umunna has been made a spokesman for all the independents.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> It is true, and whilst I have no fucking time for the Tiggers, the SNP, LDs, PC & Greens put up with them being part of the meeting, only Corbyn throw his toys out of his pram, or at least that is how it will be portrayed.


Oh tactically it was daft. But so the fuck what. There was no point in this meeting anyway it was just a silly PR stunt so that all the wankers can pretend they are working together and make some vapid statements about the national interest.


----------



## binka (Mar 20, 2019)

Corbyn's strop will be over-shadowed by whatever momentous announcement May has lined up for us in 10 minutes time


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> A member of The Independent Group - the slugs that left Labour and the Tories to set up their own group.
> Where is there any evidence that Umunna has been made a spokesman for all the independents.


Do you have any evidence that he hasn't?


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

Basically everything's on fire and they're complaining Corbyn refused to sit down with a cunt who's spent nearly four years undermining him from within Labour.

The politics of civility and nice are dreadful hack shit.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 20, 2019)

kebabking said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if TM will nuke Dublin shortly before she walks to the podium in Downing Street....


Channel 4 news mentioned there won't be a podium. Live from inside No10 instead? Bags packed?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Do you have any evidence that he hasn't?


Well why would he be speaking for a bunch of people with completely disparate views. Field and Austin are utterly opposed to TIG on Brexit and most of the other independents are sex pests and/or loons.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 20, 2019)

Chuka's official job with the tiggers is to be their spokesman but not for all independents


----------



## Cloo (Mar 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> There is no point


Well, the point is hurry up and GTFO with at least some kind of deal, I guess


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

Incidentally editor this is why talking about the "good of the country" or "the national interest" is daft.





			
				Chris Leslie said:
			
		

> Astonishing. Yet again @jeremycorbyn puts petty party politics before the national interest.






			
				Luciana Berger said:
			
		

> We’re in the midst of a national crisis. This has got to be a joke, right? #Brexit





> Sir Vince Cable says of news of Jeremy Corbyn's walk-out: "That is rather a strange way to behave in a national crisis."


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Well why would he be speaking for a bunch of people with completely disparate views. Field and Austin are utterly opposed to TIG on Brexit and most of the other independents are sex pests and/or loons.


Even if he does or doesn't speak for the non-TIGger Independents he is there as spokesman for the TIGgers and there are as many of them as the LibDem's and more than DUP, Plaid or Green. Whether he adds any value or not then he has a right to be there.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> *Oh tactically it was daft.*  But so the fuck what. There was no point in this meeting anyway it was just a silly PR stunt so that all the wankers can pretend they are working together and make some vapid statements about the national interest.



And, that's the point, he could have walked out after the pointless meeting, and made his point, taken the TV news spots & headlines, he ended-up handing over to Vince Cable & Chuka Umunna.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

I couldn't give a fuck about the "rights" of any of these shits.
(Pickman's model, do us a favour and stick up that Class War meme again).


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

No podium means as leader of the tories doesn't it? Parliamentary seal thing means as PM.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Chuka's official job with the tiggers is to be their spokesman but not for all independents



a spokesman for an informal parliamentary grouping.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 20, 2019)

Balbi said:


> No podium means as leader of the tories doesn't it? Parliamentary seal thing means as PM.


Podium is there.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

Only two flags


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 20, 2019)

Balbi said:


> Only two flags


Is Prescott making a surprise comeback?? 

"'allo, Princess"


----------



## agricola (Mar 20, 2019)

Balbi said:


> Only two flags



Corbyn used the others as fuel, to warm his jam.


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Incidentally editor this is why talking about the "good of the country" or "the national interest" is daft.


I'm talking about people's livelihoods (job losses, rising prices, food shortages etc) if that's not too difficult for you to grasp.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> I'm talking about people's livelihoods (job losses, rising prices, food shortages etc) if that's not too difficult for you to grasp.


And that's exactly what these people would claim, what May would claim. By invoking _national interest_ you're accepting the framework that puts Corbyn's action as against the national interest, that puts nationalisation or other measures that _hurt the economy_ against the national interest.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 20, 2019)

I still have no idea what is going to happen next. It is still hurting my head.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 20, 2019)

Are there any 737-MAX aircraft available to fly her to Brussels/the bottom of the Channel on Friday?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 20, 2019)

A mate has sent me a link to this article, which I missed, can't remember seeing it on here, but sorry if it already been posted.



> Exactly the same proportion of voters believe there should be a second referendum on Brexit as think the UK should leave the EU without a deal, according to the latest Opinium poll for the Observer.
> 
> The survey shows the country split down the middle, with 43% supporting a delay to Brexit in order to hold a second public vote and 43% believing the UK should simply quit without any agreement with Brussels.
> 
> Britain split over prospect of second Brexit vote, poll finds



43% both for a second referendum and to leave the EU without a deal.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 20, 2019)

Argonia said:


> I still have no idea what is going to happen next. It is still hurting my head.



Don't worry, you're not on your own, back to the first reply to the OP...


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> And that's exactly what these people would claim, what May would claim. By invoking _national interest_ you're accepting the framework that puts Corbyn's action as against the national interest, that puts nationalisation or other measures that _hurt the economy_ against the national interest.


Seeing as you appear to know what I'm thinking before I've even written it down, perhaps I should let you post on my behalf from now on. No need for my input!


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 20, 2019)




----------



## Argonia (Mar 20, 2019)

Theresa's ten minutes late


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 20, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Theresa's ten minutes late



1000 days late.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)




----------



## pesh (Mar 20, 2019)

When did bbc news get reduced to a supply teacher with some clips on a giant iPad?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> Seeing as you appear to know what I'm thinking before I've even written it down, perhaps I should let you post on my behalf from now on. No need for my input!


I've not said what you're thinking. I'm pointing out what your invoking of "the good of the country" silliness leads - to smug LD wankers and slime that have been attacking those on benefits using it to slag off Corbyn. It's literally been used for that purpose at this very minute.


----------



## peterkro (Mar 20, 2019)

pesh said:


> When did bbc news get reduced to a supply teacher with some clips on a giant iPad?



Giant iPad seems to be being operated by a controller off camera and not that twat waving his finger in the general direction of screen.


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I've not said what you're thinking I'm pointing out what your invoking of "the good of the country" silliness leads - to smug LD wankers and slime that have been attacking those on benefits using it to slag off Corbyn.


Except I explained - VERY CLEARLY - that I was interested in the plight of _individuals_.

Here, try reading these words again: "I'm talking about* people's livelihoods* (job losses, rising prices, food shortages etc) if that's not too difficult for you to grasp."

It seems it was too difficult. Oh well.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, that's the point, he could have walked out after the pointless meeting, and made his point, taken the TV news spots & headlines, he ended-up handing over to Vince Cable & Chuka Umunna.



And, now the SNP's Ian Blackford in on Sky News having a dig at Corbyn, and patting the back of the other smaller parties/groups for not being childish.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 20, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Theresa's ten minutes late



Chris Grayling has organised the press conference...

(courtesy of something that TSSA union has just re-tweeted)


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, now the SNP's Ian Blackford in on Sky News having a dig at Corbyn, and patting the back of the other smaller parties/groups for not being childish.



You've got to laugh - these fuckwits have had years of chummily getting along and leading the country to this point via one route or another because being nice is valued over actual political principle - and now it's 'oh he's being _*mean to someone, what a BAD man*_'.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 20, 2019)

"Let's just check in on Downing Street".



Excellent.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 20, 2019)

I usually skip the "Previously on..."


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

Has she just said Brexit won't happen next week?  

If Parliament don't vote her deal through, that will absolutely happen


----------



## ruffneck23 (Mar 20, 2019)

nothings ever her fault is it ? fucking idiot


----------



## agricola (Mar 20, 2019)

What on earth was the point of that?


----------



## Supine (Mar 20, 2019)

She didn't actually say much did she.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 20, 2019)

So what the fuck was that?


----------



## agricola (Mar 20, 2019)

Supine said:


> She didn't actually say much did she.



Anyone would think its nothing to do with her, any more than the rise in knife crime is.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 20, 2019)

A whole lot of diddly-fuck all.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 20, 2019)

She left the speech behind right?


----------



## oryx (Mar 20, 2019)

Another fucking wind-up!


----------



## chilango (Mar 20, 2019)

Half an hour late for that?


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 20, 2019)

Patronising much?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 20, 2019)

No point, besides she seems to have had enough, and ready to walk away if her deal isn't passed.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

Waiting For Brexit.


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 20, 2019)

What time does the 8:15 statement start?


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 20, 2019)

Well that was a let down, I was hoping she would go all postal and start shouting and banging the table but all she did was tell us what we already know.


----------



## Smangus (Mar 20, 2019)

she's on our side though,  like.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 20, 2019)

philosophical said:


> She will think she is going over the heads of everybody and appealing to the people, 'my beloved 17.4 million people' will probably be her opening line before she comes out with the same old guff.



I can't give you the winner of the Grand National though.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)




----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

This is what always happens. She trails an announcement. She’s late. But says nothing.


----------



## Arbeter Fraynd (Mar 20, 2019)

what a load of meaningless waffle


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

I suspect the E.U are going to give them the shock of their horrible grubby lives when they tell May to fuck off with her extension if the third attempt to get her deal passed fails.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Well that was a let down, I was hoping she would go all postal and start shouting and banging the table but all she did was tell us what we already know.


Don’t premiers bang tables with their shoes these days?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2019)

oryx said:


> Another fucking wind-up!


The lectern is meaningless now.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 20, 2019)

OK so May's deal isn't going through either because the speaker won't allow it or because MPs vote against it so there won't be an extension. So in that eventuality it's a no deal Brexit on 29th March surely?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

Didn't hear it. Presume it was something stirring? Inspiring? Yeah?


----------



## oryx (Mar 20, 2019)

Someone on the radio earlier said the fact that she hadn't met the 1922 Committee meant she was likely to resign.

The tosser gave me false hope!


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> The lectern is meaningless now.


Didn’t she hear the story about the PM who cried lecturn?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> Except I explained - VERY CLEARLY - that I was interested in the plight of _individuals_.
> 
> Here, try reading these words again: "I'm talking about* people's livelihoods* (job losses, rising prices, food shortages etc) if that's not too difficult for you to grasp."
> 
> It seems it was too difficult. Oh well.


Sorry this is totally confused. You didn't mention anything about individuals when you first mentioned "the good of the country". Secondly, this is still no different to what Cable and co are invoking, they'll make exactly the same claims about "people's livelihoods". In fact this is exactly the type of shit the CBI come out with whenever strengthening union rights or raising the minimum wage is mentioned.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Didn't hear it. Presume it was something stirring? Inspiring? Yeah?


Oh Wilf, your naive innocence still gives the rest of us hope


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 20, 2019)

Enough is enough, I am off to the pub for a 3rd or 4th meaningful drink.


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 20, 2019)

she is delusional


----------



## chilango (Mar 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> *Didn't hear it*. Presume it was something stirring? Inspiring? Yeah?



Maybe not this time. But you must have caught it one of the other times she's said the same thing?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Didn't hear it. Presume it was something stirring? Inspiring? Yeah?


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry this is totally confused. You didn't mention anything about individuals when you first mentioned "the good of the country". Secondly, this is still no different to what Cable and co are invoking, they'll make exactly the same claims about "people's livelihoods".


The post order reveals that you're bullshitting because you simply carried on after it was explained to you in the post I quoted. 

But your apparent lack of concern for the individuals who will be negatively affected by this farrago is duly noted.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

The line 'Patron Saint of Lost Illusion' comes to mind for some reason, so have a bit of Julian Cope. There's nothing else to be said really.


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 20, 2019)

Is it racist to block girls on tinder depending on how they voted?


----------



## Cid (Mar 20, 2019)

Balbi said:


> Waiting For Brexit.



"Well, shall we go"
"Yes let's go"

_They do not move_


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry this is totally confused. You didn't mention anything about individuals when you first mentioned "the good of the country".


Seeing as you keep on attributing this "_the good of the country"_ quote to me, could you be so kind as to show me where I actually used those words?

Thanks.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Didn't hear it. Presume it was something stirring? Inspiring? Yeah?


Yes. She said something about Parliament having to make a decision.

So, that was worth waiting for.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

Cid said:


> "Well, shall we go"
> "Yes let's go"
> 
> _They do not move_





Except it's more like Happy Days isn't it, with the E.U playing Willie


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yes. She said something about Parliament having to make a decision.
> 
> So, that was worth waiting for.


About what? Sorry, remind me again, what's this all about?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> The post order reveals that you're bullshitting because you simply carried on after it was explained to you in the post I quoted.
> But your apparent lack of concern for the individuals who will be negatively affected by this farrago is duly noted.


What are you talking about you made no mention of individual livelihoods here 


editor said:


> She's a power-crazed fuckwit that doesn't give a fuck about the future of the country. She's in it for her own career and glory, just like all cunting Tory scumbags. There is nothing to admire about her or her policies. She's a Tory, FFS.


and Cable, Umunna and co are using that exact same language to attack the most leftwing leader the LP has had for decades. That doesn't give you some pause for thought?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

Balbi said:


> Except it's more like Happy Days isn't it, with the E.U playing Willie


What, she sometimes uses the toilets as her office?


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> and Cable, Umunna and co are using that exact same language to attack the most leftwing leader the LP has had for decades. That doesn't give you some pause for thought?


That is one hell of a strawman you've just constructed there. And it's a fucking shit one. In fact, make that a shameful one. 

Perhaps you'd better stick to manufacturing quotes.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> Seeing as you keep on attributing this "_the good of the country"_ quote to me, could you be so kind as to show me where I actually used those words?
> 
> Thanks.


Apologies is was "the future of the country", not that that alters the substantive point.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> About what? Sorry, remind me again, what's this all about?


Oh, I’m not clear on that bit. I want to say badgers?


----------



## belboid (Mar 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> The line 'Patron Saint of Lost Illusion' comes to mind for some reason, so have a bit of Julian Cope. There's nothing else to be said really.



she is lost, with no companions


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> What, she sometimes uses the toilets as her office?



Ayyyyyyyyyy.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 20, 2019)

Balbi said:


> Ayyyyyyyyyy.


She’s jumped the shark.


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Apologies is was "the future of the country", not that that alters the substantive point.


Or you could just say 'sorry' for making up shit and repeating it all over t'shop.


----------



## Santino (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> That is one hell of a strawman you've just constructed there. And it's a fucking shit one. In fact, make that a shameful one.
> 
> Perhaps you'd better stick to manufacturing quotes.


I don't think that's what a strawman is.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh, I’m not clear on that bit. I want to say badgers?


Ah, Badgers! It will be enough to prorogue his FEB.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 20, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> Is it racist to block girls on tinder depending on how they voted?


Nah


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

This argument is a beautiful microcosm of the sort of high level intellectual discussion that Brexit is all about.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> Or you could just say 'sorry' for making up shit and repeating it all over t'shop.


Sorry but if you can't see that the substantive point is the same that isn't my fault.


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

Santino said:


> I don't think that's what a strawman is.


Oh yes it is.



> A *straw man* is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."


Either way it's a fucking sht argument he presented.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2019)

She definitely flounced out though.


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry but if you can't see that the substantive point is the same that isn't my fault.


Fantastic stuff. Make up a quote, repeat is as if it's true and then refuse to say sorry when you've been shown to be a big fibber because - in your mind - it's sort of/kind of/a bit like the same thing?

Don't you even understand how quotation marks work? And the only person to bring up this "good of the nation" bollocks is you, FFS!

Anway this is way too dull compared to the actual topic, so I'll leave you to make up shit if that's your bag.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

belboid said:


> she is lost, with no companions


I'm now onto Going Upwards at 45 Degrees. 'Earth is a Cannon of Love' apparently. In fact Brexit can only be understood as a series of events in Julian Cope's head.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 20, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> She definitely flounced out though.


She should have done a mic drop.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> Is it racist to block girls on tinder depending on how they voted?



For these kinds of questions we need Gromit.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

editor said:


> The only person to bring up this "good of the nation" bollocks is you, FFS!


Your criticism of May is this afternoon is analogous to Cables etc criticisms about Corbyn tonight. It absolutely is.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> For these kinds of questions we need Gromit.


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 20, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> she is delusional


Nah she's far more cunning than that. She's playing it like a twat though and proving that she has all the potential to be another future guest in my bathroom for spare paper.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 20, 2019)

Time to march on May for June.


----------



## CRI (Mar 20, 2019)

I've got a sore eye, the screen is blurry so can someone summarise what's up? Ta muchly.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

DUP have said no way to voting on the deal. May's gonna have to peel off some Labour MPs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

CRI said:


> I've got a sore eye, the screen is blurry so can someone summarise what's up? Ta muchly.


It's all fucked


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

Basically, we are all living in a comedy club. Maybe, with increased bar prices from next week May June the apocalypse.


----------



## elbows (Mar 20, 2019)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2019)

CRI said:


> I've got a sore eye, the screen is blurry so can someone summarise what's up? Ta muchly.



May's gone on the telly and thrown her toys out the pram.


----------



## Cid (Mar 20, 2019)

Balbi said:


> DUP have said no way to voting on the deal. May's gonna have to peel off some Labour MPs.



She's starting with a deficit of about 30 then right? ERG fundies and DUP.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

Come on Ranbay give us the countdown. Tell us, when does it _end_?


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Come on Ranbay give us the countdown. Tell us, when does it _end_?




Week Friday, bet my left nut on it.


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 20, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Time to march on May for June.



April said she will come


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> April said she will come


Apryl?


----------



## philosophical (Mar 20, 2019)

CRI said:


> I've got a sore eye, the screen is blurry so can someone summarise what's up? Ta muchly.


----------



## CRI (Mar 20, 2019)

philosophical said:


>


That's about what it feels like!


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2019)

I've just seen a couple of twittery type things suggesting it wasn't a great idea for May to piss off the very people who she needs to vote for her. 
To be honest, I'm really surprised her sure touch and clever instincts have departed her at this 11th hour.


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 20, 2019)

So if May's MV either doesn't happen or goes against her.  What happens next?  Is it a No Deal Brexit or is Revoking Article 50 the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> So if May's MV either doesn't happen or goes against her.  What happens next?  Is it a No Deal Brexit or is Revoking Article 50 the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.


That's the way it is


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I've just seen a couple of twittery type things suggesting it wasn't a great idea for May to piss off the very people who she needs to vote for her.
> To be honest, I'm really surprised her sure touch and clever instincts have departed her at this 11th hour.


I'm astonished she made it to the eleventh hour


----------



## Balbi (Mar 20, 2019)

No Deal I reckon. Don't think they can build a parliamentary majority for revoking A50 and if MV3 fails then the E.U aren't going to waste any more time on the UK.


----------



## killer b (Mar 20, 2019)

It was always going to have to come down to this: the only way enough MPs can be persuaded to vote against their own or their party's interests and bring together a majority for something is this kind of white hot heat. Going to be an interesting few days.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 20, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> So if May's MV either doesn't happen or goes against her.  What happens next?  Is it a No Deal Brexit or is Revoking Article 50 the only way to avoid a No Deal Brexit.



Tusk was pretty deliberate in his language earlier - it only spoke of a short extension. There are other possibilities that could lead to a longer one, I think, but time has almost run out for any one of those to happen. The Hail Mary pass might be a vote of no confidence in the government in a weeks time. I think there's a slim possibility that just enough Tories would take that option. That would need to come from Corbyn for it to be expedited though and he'll probably be too busy.

The top banter timeline would of course be for the Queen to die on the morning of the 29th...


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 20, 2019)

Crisis what crisis?


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 20, 2019)

Next stop brexit.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 20, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> The top banter timeline would of course be for the Queen to die on the morning of the 29th...


Holy fuck that would be incredible


----------



## Humberto (Mar 20, 2019)

I get the impression that the whole lot of them are fucking shit.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Mar 20, 2019)

not often I smile when a tory speaks but Margret Hodge is going mental on lbc


oops i meant Beckett , apols


----------



## grit (Mar 20, 2019)

Balbi said:


> No Deal I reckon. Don't think they can build a parliamentary majority for revoking A50 and if MV3 fails then the E.U aren't going to waste any more time on the UK.



Every few hours seems to provide another strong signal for that alright. I had the first serious conversation in the house about maybe buying a bit more than usual on the supermarket run.


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 20, 2019)

So the HoC votes against a No Deal Brexit in any circumstances, but then fail to take the action needed to make this desire actual. Dismal stuff.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> not often I smile when a tory speaks but Margret Hodge is going mental on lbc


In what way? At May and/or Corbyn?


----------



## Cid (Mar 20, 2019)

I suppose a few other things that could happen: someone proposing an amendment to MV3 that increases the value of voting against... Or possibility of long extension perhaps contingent on May resignation/GE or something.

But yeah, crash out or marginal win for May seem most likely.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Mar 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> In what way? At May and/or Corbyn?


at May , calling her a liar and deluded 

oops i meant Beckett , apols


----------



## elbows (Mar 20, 2019)

So if Blair ran a sofa government, what is Mays? A bed of nails? Medieval boreture rack?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> at May , calling her a liar and deluded
> 
> oops i meant Beckett , apols


OK Ta.


----------



## Cid (Mar 20, 2019)

elbows said:


> So if Blair ran a sofa government, what is Mays? A bed of nails? Medieval boreture rack?



To be fair if Blair ran a sofa government, it was probably a sofa made by Ed Gein.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2019)

elbows said:


> So if Blair ran a sofa government, what is Mays? A bed of nails? Medieval boreture rack?


It's not in fact a government but a collection of oddballs playing at government


----------



## elbows (Mar 20, 2019)




----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 20, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Holy fuck that would be incredible



_The Queen's Private Secretary picks up the phone_

"Hello Brussels, this is Buckingham Palace. I'm afraid we are going to have to go into an 18-month period of mourning. Can you possibly put everything on hold for that time? Maybe give us another six months after that to get back up to speed? Can't pass any legislation, you see."

"Bien sûr que oui, et vous avez nos condoléances"

_Phone is put down.
_
"It truly was her finest hour. Gawd bless you ma'am, taking that one for the team"


----------



## elbows (Mar 20, 2019)

Everythings going just fine.



> One MP described it as their “worst day as a member of this party” and said May had faced unrestrained anger at the meeting, including from party moderates warning against a Brexit delay.
> 
> Tory sources said MP David Evennett had told May that if she did not resolve the crisis “your time will have come to an end” and fellow MP Nigel Evans also signalled he believed she should step down.
> 
> Several MPs, including Stephen McPartland and Ben Bradley, said the prime minister’s request to delay article 50 had made it actively more difficult for them to back her deal at the next vote.





> I have never been in a meeting like it, the atmosphere was extraordinary,” one MP said. “She looked like Alice in Wonderland when she drank that potion, shrinking in her chair.”
> 
> MPs said they believed May’s speech blaming her colleagues for the impasse had been counterproductive. “It might be true but you don’t bloody say it,” one former minister said. Another MP accused her of “acting like President Trump”.



Theresa May: don't blame me for Brexit crisis, blame MPs


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 20, 2019)

this (from january 2017) is getting circulated a bit today...


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Mar 20, 2019)

Somewhere out there in an alternate universe, Ed Miliband is Prime Minister and Hillary Clinton is President.

There is no more damning indictment of the current incumbents of No.10 and the White House than that we're living through the shittier timeline.


----------



## Cid (Mar 20, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> this (from january 2017) is getting circulated a bit today...


----------



## Cid (Mar 20, 2019)




----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 20, 2019)

in other news, online petition to revoke article 50 has had 300,000+ signatures today

presume government will say "ok, we'll debate it some time in april"


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 21, 2019)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

'tired public need a decision'

How dare she presume to speak for 'the public'.


----------



## editor (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'tired public need a decision'
> 
> How dare she presume to speak for 'the public'.


Tory scum being Tory scum. I can't describe how much I hate this party and in particular, that spineless shit Cameron who lead us into the shitstorm. How much money has been wasted on this fucking folly?


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'tired public need a decision'
> 
> How dare she presume to speak for 'the public'.


The public spoke, she listened goddammit. 
She wants to get it done, because we all need to talk about other matters. She's so selfless, God bless her, the cunt.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 21, 2019)

May is trying (again) to engineer a situation where MPs face a choice between her deal or crashing out within a few days. the fucking arrogance and self-delusion is breathtaking - its on a par with Trump and his shut down over the wall. I suspect that MPs will be cooking up various  amendments to shoot that one down - in the certain knowledge that bercow green light them.


----------



## elbows (Mar 21, 2019)

As I face the terminal slide
I just want you to know I'm on your side
Your side moawahaha

M'ladys not for delaying
But my deal needs slaying
Slaying prahahaha

Stubborn me this and
Stubborn me that
I dont suit this brexit hatatat tat tat.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> in other news, online petition to revoke article 50 has had 300,000+ signatures today
> 
> presume government will say "ok, we'll debate it some time in april"


I signed that. Not that it makes a blind bit of difference. But even that doesn't really represent what I think. I don't 'support staying in the EU' particularly. I oppose _this_. I oppose this brexit vehemently, and I would like it to be abandoned immediately. 

Same problem with the idea of going on the march on Saturday. Again. I don't particularly want to express support or enthusiasm for the EU. My disgust over this is purely negative - purely against this brexit, these plans, these bad things that are about to be done.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> It was always going to have to come down to this: the only way enough MPs can be persuaded to vote against their own or their party's interests and bring together a majority for something is this kind of white hot heat. Going to be an interesting few days.


Yes though I still don't see many tories breaking towards Corbyn's customs union. They'll happily vote against May, but not with  labour.


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I signed that. Not that it makes a blind bit of difference. But even that doesn't really represent what I think. I don't 'support staying in the EU' particularly. I oppose _this_. I oppose this brexit vehemently, and I would like it to be abandoned immediately.
> 
> Same problem with the idea of going on the march on Saturday. Again. I don't particularly want to express support or enthusiasm for the EU. My disgust over this is purely negative - purely against this brexit, these plans, these bad things that are about to be done.



Come to the March on Saturday I suspect that there will be many discontented leavers there like yourself and many many remainers who want to choose the path of 'stay and reform'.  People's Vote to put the jack back in the box, but lets not have referendum's on complex, divisive, non-binary issues ever again please.


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yes though I still don't see many tories breaking towards Corbyn's customs union. They'll happily vote against May, but not with  labour.



MPs cant settle it. Much as we hate referendums, it has to go back to mass vote.


----------



## MrCurry (Mar 21, 2019)

May’s speech was incredibly patronising in tone, listing out all the things she supposed that the public were more interested in than Brexit.  Clearly she thought she was talking to “the little people” who don’t really understand what’s going on, but she could at least have hidden that attitude better.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 21, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> People's Vote to put the jack back in the box, but lets not have referendum's on complex, divisive, non-binary issues ever again please.


So is another Scottish Independence referendum allowed? What about the referendums/plebiscites in Ireland and Australia for gay marriage should they have been allowed?


----------



## MrCurry (Mar 21, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> in other news, online petition to revoke article 50 has had 300,000+ signatures today
> 
> presume government will say "ok, we'll debate it some time in april"



I have a feeling that will become a very popular petition. What’s the record for an online uk gov petition?


----------



## Badgers (Mar 21, 2019)

Over 410k


MrCurry said:


> I have a feeling that will become a very popular petition. What’s the record for an online uk gov petition?


Dunno  something about Eccles cakes I expect


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 21, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> I have a feeling that will become a very popular petition. What’s the record for an online uk gov petition?


As of June 2016 the most successful petition, with over four million signatories, was one to require referendums to have a supermajority;[5] this had been started in May 2016 before the Brexit referendum, by a supporter of Brexit.[6]


----------



## ruffneck23 (Mar 21, 2019)

well TM has certainly brought the country together... against her

quite a feat


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> Come to the March on Saturday I suspect that there will be many discontented leavers there like yourself and many many remainers who want to choose the path of 'stay and reform'.  People's Vote to put the jack back in the box, but lets not have referendum's on complex, divisive, non-binary issues ever again please.


I'm not a discontented leaver. I never wanted this Tory brexit. I'm just not 'pro-eu' either. As you say it's not necessarily a binary issue.


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 21, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> So is another Scottish Independence referendum allowed? What about the referendums/plebiscites in Ireland and Australia for gay marriage should they have been allowed?


 
I think Scottish Independence is relatively simple compared to Brexit.  I suppose I should add the word "arguably" to that statement.


----------



## andysays (Mar 21, 2019)

S☼I said:


> As of June 2016 the most successful petition, with over four million signatories, was one to require referendums to have a supermajority;[5] this had been started in May 2016 before the Brexit referendum, by a supporter of Brexit.[6]


Well, that's ironic...


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 21, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> I think Scottish Independence is relatively simple compared to Brexit.


Who will sit on the panel that decides which issues are too complex for the public and which aren’t?

So far, in your opinion, Brexit = too complex; Scottish independence = not too complex.

Can you lay out a spectrum and show us where the cut off point is?


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Who will sit on the panel that decides which issues are too complex for the public and which aren’t?
> 
> So far, in your opinion, Brexit = too complex; Scottish independence = not too complex.
> 
> Can you lay out a spectrum and show us where the cut off point is?



No I cant, but Brexit lies well on the "too complex" side of the spectrum.  But you make a good point, I have added the word "arguably" to my post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2019)

So there was a march to stop brexit leaflet through our door this morning and someone handing out leaflets at dalston junction


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 21, 2019)

Effectively there was, and is, a panel that gets to decided whether an issue is too complex or not to be put to a referendum - it's called parliament. And clearly in this case it decided that the issue wasn't too complex.

So if you are arguing that parliament isn't the correct body to decide whether a referendum can be held, who is? 
I guess it's ironically appropriate that whether the referendum to leave the technocratic EU should be decided by a bunch of technocrats. But lets not pretend that this is anything but another attack on democracy.


----------



## andysays (Mar 21, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Effectively there was, and is, a panel that gets to decided whether an issue is too complex or not to be put to a referendum - it's called parliament. And clearly in this case it decided that the issue wasn't too complex.
> 
> So if you are arguing that parliament isn't the correct body to decide whether a referendum can be held, who is?
> I guess it's ironically appropriate that whether the referendum to leave the technocratic EU should be decided by a bunch of technocrats. But lets not pretend that this is anything but another attack on democracy.


TBF, it was less that it wasn't too complex for the electorate and more that it was too divisive within the Tory party.

The original reason for the referendum had very little, if anything, to do with democracy...


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 21, 2019)

andysays said:


> The original reason for the referendum had very little, if anything, to do with democracy...


Oh of course it didn't. 

But this idea that political issues should be made technocratic is revolting, it's one of the reasons why I voted leave. The answer is more democracy not less.


----------



## andysays (Mar 21, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Oh of course it didn't.
> 
> But this idea that political issues should be made technocratic is revolting, it's one of the reasons why I voted leave. The answer is more democracy not less.


No argument from me on that point


----------



## Cid (Mar 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> So there was a march to stop brexit leaflet through our door this morning and someone handing out leaflets at dalston junction



23rd innit? (my family is on the moan end of remain).


----------



## killer b (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yes though I still don't see many tories breaking towards Corbyn's customs union. They'll happily vote against May, but not with  labour.


Perhaps not, although with this kind of thing happening enough of them might think they have nothing to lose.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/tory-grassroots-whatsapp-coordinate-oust-50-mps/


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2019)

Cid said:


> 23rd innit? (my family is on the moan end of remain).


indeed; i will be at the bored end of work on saturday


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> The answer is more democracy not less.


the system cannot deliver more democracy, it struggles with the miserable quantity we enjoy at present


----------



## teqniq (Mar 21, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> in other news, online petition to revoke article 50 has had 300,000+ signatures today
> 
> presume government will say "ok, we'll debate it some time in april"


It's getting so much traffic it's broken the site.


----------



## chilango (Mar 21, 2019)

I think one of the things we can learn from this debacle is that there is a growing conflict between capital's direction of travel and existing liberal democratic structures/processes.

Both Brexit and Remain contain elements of this conflict in both what people want them to provide ("taking back control", "EU protection against the Tories") and the opportunity capital sees within  other to remove bits of awkward democratic obstacles to expansion/growth.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 21, 2019)

The petition has gone offline just as it reached 600k.
I wonder why?


----------



## teqniq (Mar 21, 2019)

No it hasn't.



however it's not working very well


----------



## ska invita (Mar 21, 2019)

Brexit isn't too complex, it's that the complexities weren't faced up to and pinned down in a document. That would've required agreement amongst probrexit politicians and to get agreement there was maybe too "complex."

The amount of social change needed (wanted) goes way beyond the scale of brexit. All this Greatest Crisis Ever Known guff is.... pathetic really





philosophical said:


> The petition has gone offline just as it reached 600k.
> I wonder why?



Did the   queen press ctrl alt del to stop the revolution?​


----------



## Poi E (Mar 21, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> I think Scottish Independence is relatively simple compared to Brexit.  I suppose I should add the word "arguably" to that statement.



Well, independence from Britain has been done loads of times. Exit from the EU, never.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2019)

teqniq said:


> No it hasn't.
> 
> View attachment 165160
> 
> however it's not working very well


seems to be mostly those urban elites


----------



## andysays (Mar 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> seems to be mostly those urban elites
> 
> View attachment 165166
> 
> View attachment 165167


Does that match up with where the Urban75 elite post from then? I expected an even higher concentration in south London, tbh


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 21, 2019)

offline again


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 21, 2019)

and back now


----------



## chilango (Mar 21, 2019)

What concrete point is there in adding more signatures to that petition now that it has passed the "debate threshold"?


----------



## agricola (Mar 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> What concrete point is there in adding more signatures to that petition now that it has passed the "debate threshold"?



you might get it to crash again


----------



## Santino (Mar 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> What concrete point is there in adding more signatures to that petition now that it has passed the "debate threshold"?


Democracy, innit? Until this petition no one was aware that lots of people were against Brexit.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> What concrete point is there in adding more signatures to that petition now that it has passed the "debate threshold"?



So there is an even larger number of voters to be ignored?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2019)

andysays said:


> Does that match up with where the Urban75 elite post from then? I expected an even higher concentration in south London, tbh


i thought we all used vpns based in edinburgh


----------



## MrCurry (Mar 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> What concrete point is there in adding more signatures to that petition now that it has passed the "debate threshold"?



Because with this petition being on course to hit a million signatures in its first day, there is the very real prospect that it might become the all-time most voted for petition and will this become impossible for the govt to ignore.

In politics, numbers matter, after all.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 21, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> So is another Scottish Independence referendum allowed? What about the referendums/plebiscites in Ireland and Australia for gay marriage should they have been allowed?



No no no, you don't get it. Stuff that I _agree_ with is clearly worthy of being put to plebiscite. Stuff that I _disagree_ with is obviously too complicated to ask of the thicko proles, who will inevitably vote the wrong way.


----------



## grit (Mar 21, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> will this become impossible for the govt to ignore.



Its a fucking e-petition


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> In politics, numbers matter, after all.



Only if they are on the streets chucking bricks.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Because with this petition being on course to hit a million signatures in its first day, there is the very real prospect that it might become the all-time most voted for petition and will this become impossible for the govt to ignore.
> 
> In politics, numbers matter, after all.


 It will be ignored, don't you worry about that.


----------



## klang (Mar 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> There is no point


.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Only if they are on the streets chucking bricks.


exactly. Poll Tax _riot_. Not ignored. Anti-war _march_. Ignored. To have any effect, we need to riot against no deal brexit. I don't have the energy...


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> exactly. Poll Tax _riot_. Not ignored. Anti-war _march_. Ignored. To have any effect, we need to riot against no deal brexit. I don't have the energy...



Ditto, I’m also a bit low on bricks!


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 21, 2019)

2.5 Mil by midnight, telling you


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> 2.5 Mil by midnight, telling you



Is it meaningful though?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> exactly. Poll Tax _riot_. Not ignored. Anti-war _march_. Ignored. To have any effect, we need to riot against no deal brexit. I don't have the energy...


poll tax_ riotS_


----------



## tommers (Mar 21, 2019)

It's an outlet. Almost half of the people who voted feel like their wishes have been completely ignored in favour of appeasing Jacob Rees Mogg and Nigel fucking Farage. 

People are fucked off and this is a nice little way of showing it.

Of course it won't achieve anything. I don't think anybody thinks that.


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 21, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Is it meaningful though?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Mar 21, 2019)

and back down again and up and down, they really should speak to their IT dept


----------



## Poi E (Mar 21, 2019)

Never seen such inconsistent performance from an arm of government.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> What concrete point is there in adding more signatures to that petition now that it has passed the "debate threshold"?



I would guess a key point of it, at least from the view of the organisers, that if it gets to several million then it'll be a good number for MP's to repeat (in exactly the same way the 17 million figure is repeated) when justifying ousting May and quite possibly revoking A50. I don't think you even need a govt to revoke A50, just a motion. Could be wrong though. I don't have a copy of Erskine May since it costs about £450 quid.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> and back down again and up and down, they really should speak to their IT dept



Isn't it a government website?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Never seen such inconsistent performance from an arm of government.



It’s because they have something up their sleeve!


----------



## Poi E (Mar 21, 2019)

I knew John Bull wouldn't let us down.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I would guess a key point of it, at least from the view of the organisers, that if it gets to several million then it'll be a good number for MP's to repeat (in exactly the same way the 17 million figure is repeated) when justifying ousting May and quite possibly revoking A50. I don't think you even need a govt to revoke A50, just a motion. Could be wrong though. I don't have a copy of Erskine May since it costs about £450 quid.


You need a 'democratic process according to the UK constitution', plus someone to make the phone call. It's not clearly defined given that the UK doesn't really have a constitution. If the govt were to fall and parliament to vote to revoke, that would count, I would think. Bercow could call it in.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Isn't it a government website?


yeah , i think so


----------



## Poi E (Mar 21, 2019)

.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

Poi E said:


> .



Typical false flag, the Union flag isn’t symmetrical. The patriots can’t even get that right.


----------



## chilango (Mar 21, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Because with this petition being on course to hit a million signatures in its first day, there is the very real prospect that it might become the all-time most voted for petition and will this become impossible for the govt to ignore.
> 
> In politics, numbers matter, after all.



It will be very easy for the Govt to ignore.

Easier than their current attempts to not "not ignore" almost 17.5 million people* anyway  

*or 16.1 million people depending on what time it is.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

Does anyone have any idea what time The May grovels to the EU leaders perchance?


----------



## chilango (Mar 21, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Only if they are on the streets chucking bricks.



...or sat on the Govt backbenches.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 21, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> in other news, online petition to revoke article 50 has had 300,000+ signatures today
> 
> presume government will say "ok, we'll debate it some time in april"


I have to say I’m quite amused by this. It’d be funny if it gets into the millions, because of the potential for anguish in public discourse. I’m tempted to sign it out of badness.


----------



## grit (Mar 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I have to say I’m quite amused by this. It’d be funny if it gets into the millions, because of the potential for anguish in public discourse. I’m tempted to sign it out of badness.



Site has crashed again, I have a lot of sympathy for the system administrators in there this morning. Servers m,ust be melting.


----------



## pinkychukkles (Mar 21, 2019)

Presumably it will only really have genuine meaning if the total number of people signing it exceeds the number which voted for Brexit in the referendum?


----------



## Poi E (Mar 21, 2019)

Probably Brexiteers deliberately signing to crash the system


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Probably Brexiteers deliberately signing to crash the system



Jacob Rees-Mogg has got his butler, footman, valet, gardener, chauffeur and shoelace ironer on the system.


----------



## Fez909 (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> To have any effect, we need to riot against no deal brexit


rioting for a free trade agreement


----------



## 8ball (Mar 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I have to say I’m quite amused by this. It’d be funny if it gets into the millions, because of the potential for anguish in public discourse. I’m tempted to sign it out of badness.



Me too.

In fact, I just did. 

(Just under 800,000 sigs at this point)


----------



## chilango (Mar 21, 2019)

They could do s Leave! Now! Petition too see who gets the most.like an unofficial people's vote. 

We could sign both. :F


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 21, 2019)

8ball said:


> Me too.
> 
> In fact, I just did.
> 
> (Just under 800,000 sigs at this point)


What the hell. I might just do it. 

I don’t want a 2nd Ref, but I do want the political classes to tear themselves apart.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> What the hell. I might just do it.
> 
> I don’t want a 2nd Ref, but I do want the political classes to tear themselves apart.



I’d gladly share my bricks if you need some?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> They could do s Leave! Now! Petition too see who gets the most.like an unofficial people's vote.
> 
> We could sign both. :F


Petition: Leave the EU without a deal in March 2019.

Just signed both.


----------



## andysays (Mar 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Petition: Leave the EU without a deal in March 2019.
> 
> Just signed both.


That's the problem with democracy, always one person who spoils it for the rest of us


----------



## 8ball (Mar 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Petition: Leave the EU without a deal in March 2019.
> 
> Just signed both.



Tempted...

I do like fresh food, but still tempted...


----------



## Whagwan (Mar 21, 2019)

LOL,  the pure insanity of that No Deal petition is seen if you click "more details"

"We will save billions of pounds from our EU divorce payment as well as a similar amount from Civil Service and Govt costs. This money will be used to support our own country whilst we await the EU to talk to us to make deals more in our favour. The EU border in Ireland to be managed simply by having a dual Euro / pound currency as legal tender in both the North and South. Exports to the South would be dealt with in Euro and vice versa when importing to the North. *Rates fixed at time of the deal*."

So bring back sovereignty by *checks notes* tying the Pound to the Euro for ever?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Petition: Leave the EU without a deal in March 2019.
> 
> Just signed both.


You're making a mockery of the democratic process. Civilisation hangs by a thread.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

Whagwan said:


> LOL,  the pure insanity of that No Deal petition is seen if you click "more details"
> 
> "We will save billions of pounds from our EU divorce payment as well as a similar amount from Civil Service and Govt costs. This money will be used to support our own country whilst we await the EU to talk to us to make deals more in our favour. The EU border in Ireland to be managed simply by having a dual Euro / pound currency as legal tender in both the North and South. Exports to the South would be dealt with in Euro and vice versa when importing to the North. *Rates fixed at time of the deal*."
> 
> So bring back sovereignty by *checks notes* tying the Pound to the Euro for ever?


Was that started by a certain D Davis?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 21, 2019)

34,000 sigs for the "revoke A50" petition in the last 20 mins... 

edit - and now the site has crashed


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> You're making a mockery of the democratic process. Civilisation hangs by a thread.



Anarchy, here, in the uk, who’d have thunk it.


----------



## Benjamin F (Mar 21, 2019)

I'd sign the revoke Article 50 petition (once it stops crashing) but only when it reaches 17,410,742 signatures.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> You're making a mockery of the democratic process.


Oh, I think it’s doing that just fine all by itself.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 21, 2019)

I wonder if those who think there is a technological solution on the Irish border will point to the petition website as an example of technological triumph.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 21, 2019)

Not wishing to come over all TPA....but £10k of 'public money' _*spaffed up the wall *_on 1 FB plug of May's pathetic whinge...how many month's worth of your tax is that?
FFS


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

Not sure if it's just a case of processing the backlog, but the remainiac petition is going up by about 200 every 10 seconds. So, what was the biggest petition the government ever had? Bet it was about the cat bin lady.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

Hard to think of anyone who has less justification to be arrogant than Theresa May. And yet...


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hard to think of anyone who has less justification to be arrogant than Theresa May. And yet...


A modest woman with much to be modest about.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh, I think it’s doing that just fine all by itself.



as the old proverb runs, you can't take the piss out of shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Never seen such inconsistent performance from an arm of government.


I beg to differ, they've been consistently shit


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 21, 2019)

signed the petition. mainly cos the clockwork psychopath completely boiled my piss last night. 
Im  predicting the following events unfolding - 
petition gets to 3 million- 
over a million attend demo on saturday - 
general strike to revoke a50 and stop no deal - 
brexit cancelled and government collapses -  
Uk become soviet socialist  republic as workers finally realise their power - 
proletariat of EU27 follow suit. 
Simples.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 21, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> signed the petition.


Which one? There’s two being discussed on the thread.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

I think it’s outstanding that the uk voted to leave so the EU couldn’t tell us what to do.
And now the PM is in Brussels being told by the EU what to do.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Mar 21, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I think it’s outstanding that the uk voted to leave so the EU couldn’t tell us what to do.
> And now the PM is in Brussels being told by the EU what to do.


but blue passports..


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 21, 2019)

> ”We all know the stories about Article 50... about the country who cannot be leave the EU because, and I am not making this up, they have a pet Moggy."


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Which one? There’s two being discussed on the thread.



Factionalist.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Not sure if it's just a case of processing the backlog, but the remainiac petition is going up by about 200 every 10 seconds. So, what was the biggest petition the government ever had? Bet it was about the cat bin lady.



Tusk has played a blinder here I think. 

Everyone is talking about May going over the heads of Parliament to appeal to the masses, but Tusk seems to have done something very effective here I think. People who's position was previously that they voted Remain but grudgingly accepted the referendum result had to be respected now seem to be moving towards a more actively combative position. Before the Tusk statement revoking A50 didn't seem to be a serious political position to anyone but now it seems like it is. 

Just conjecture of course, and perhaps I'm being confused by the speed at which people are signing that petition, but seems quite possible.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> signed the petition. mainly cos the clockwork psychopath completely boiled my piss last night.
> Im  predicting the following events unfolding -
> petition gets to 3 million-
> over a million attend demo on saturday -
> ...



If we actually got a general strike to stop Brexit having failed to have one in response to austerity I don't know whether I would laugh or cry. 

Suspect such tactics will not be the central ones pushed on the PV March. But who knows?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Tusk has played a blinder here I think.
> 
> Everyone is talking about May going over the heads of Parliament to appeal to the masses, but Tusk seems to have done something very effective here I think. People who's position was previously that they voted Remain but grudgingly accepted the referendum result had to be respected now seem to be moving towards a more actively combative position. Before the Tusk statement revoking A50 didn't seem to be a serious political position to anyone but now it seems like it is.
> 
> Just conjecture of course, and perhaps I'm being confused by the speed at which people are signing that petition, but seems quite possible.


Tbh it's very easy to play a blinder against someone like may


----------



## tommers (Mar 21, 2019)




----------



## Ranbay (Mar 21, 2019)

I tried to set up a petition to ban online petitions and it wouldn’t let me, it's PC gone mad.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh it's very easy to play a blinder against someone like may



It is, she’s a typical British manager.
All you need to do is convince them that your idea is really their idea.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 21, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> it's PC gone mad.


Have you tried turning it off and on again?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> I tried to set up a petition to ban online petitions and it wouldn’t let me, it's PC gone mad.


Democracy is a fragile precious thing. You're as bad as Danny.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 21, 2019)

I really enjoy the line 'democracy dies in darkness' it has a lot of pith. But then its on the masthead of the washington post which ruins it imo.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 21, 2019)




----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Tusk has played a blinder here I think.
> 
> Everyone is talking about May going over the heads of Parliament to appeal to the masses, but Tusk seems to have done something very effective here I think. People who's position was previously that they voted Remain but grudgingly accepted the referendum result had to be respected now seem to be moving towards a more actively combative position. Before the Tusk statement revoking A50 didn't seem to be a serious political position to anyone but now it seems like it is.
> 
> Just conjecture of course, and perhaps I'm being confused by the speed at which people are signing that petition, but seems quite possible.


I have no real grasp on national opinion, beyond opinion polls. I'm off sick so a bit out of it in terms of union and politicking, but the rest of the people I talk don't seem to be talking about it all (apart from the odd 'I wish they'd get on with it'.  I'm also not sure what would be a good petition score of the remain one. They are well organised and the first few hundred thousand should be relatively easy to get (thought it is moving pretty sharpish). Anything beyond that, 2 million (?), would be impressive?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> I really enjoy the line 'democracy dies in darkness' it has a lot of pith. But then its on the masthead of the washington post which ruins it imo.



The Americans are big on democracy though. I am sure that if democracy looked threatened in the UK they would gladly bomb it back into us.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I have no real grasp on national opinion, beyond opinion polls. I'm off sick so a bit out of it in terms of union and politicking, but the rest of the people I talk don't seem to be talking about it all (apart from the odd 'I wish they'd get on with it'.  I'm also not sure what would be a good petition score of the remain one. They are well organised and the first few hundred thousand should be relatively easy to get (thought it is moving pretty sharpish). Anything beyond that, 2 million (?), would be impressive?



Sorry to hear that mon, hope you're ok. Yeah, you would think they would be organised enough to get there pretty quickly, I was just thinking of the speed that it's being signed at, which presumably will increase the more it's shared on social media. I think they'd need at least 3 million quite quickly to really make a statement but with the People's Vote march on Saturday it could well increase. Having said that, can those demanding a second referendum actually encourage signatures for this without totally destroying their credibility? "We wanted a People's Vote but we'll happily settle for cancelling it". 

I dunno why I'm even asking I'm sure I probably care more about their credibility than they do and I distinctly don't care.


----------



## pesh (Mar 21, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> I really enjoy the line 'democracy dies in darkness' it has a lot of pith. But then its on the masthead of the washington post which ruins it imo.


'But Alexa can turn your lights on'


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 21, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> The Americans are big on democracy though. I am sure that if democracy looked threatened in the UK they would gladly bomb it back into us.



Hence why they've got the bloke who got the second most votes as President.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 21, 2019)

Well, the PM's little speech last night has certainly had an effect on one member of my cycling club - he _was_ an ardent Brexit supporter, "right up until that shower of shit last night, she can go fuck herself" being his new position


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Sorry to hear that mon, hope you're ok. Yeah, you would think they would be organised enough to get there pretty quickly, I was just thinking of the speed that it's being signed at, which presumably will increase the more it's shared on social media. I think they'd need at least 3 million quite quickly to really make a statement but with the People's Vote march on Saturday it could well increase. Having said that, can those demanding a second referendum actually encourage signatures for this without totally destroying their credibility? "We wanted a People's Vote but we'll happily settle for cancelling it".
> 
> I dunno why I'm even asking I'm sure I probably care more about their credibility than they do and I distinctly don't care.


Cheers. 
Yeah, the speed is certainly significant, though apparently another one calling for a second ref got 4m. They'd need to be pushing that maybe to exert any pressure?


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## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 21, 2019)

I keep feeling waves of sympathy for May, followed by waves of revulsion.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 21, 2019)

Only Anal Cunt can save Brexit now


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

There are so many threads by the way do we want a thread for the march or is that just overkill?


----------



## grit (Mar 21, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> I keep feeling waves of sympathy for May, followed by waves of revulsion.



I have to admit every now and again I do recognize what level of professional and personal pressure she is under.


----------



## grit (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> There are so many threads by the way do we want a thread for the march or is that just overkill?



Please don't start another thread.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Cheers.
> Yeah, the speed is certainly significant, though apparently another one calling for a second ref got 4m. They'd need to be pushing that maybe to exert any pressure?



*shrug* I don't know any more. I guess?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Hence why they've got the bloke who got the second most votes as President.



Please understand I am taking the piss.
As in the destruction they unleashed in the Middle East in the name of ‘democracy’


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 21, 2019)

It  occurs to me that what may is planning is that once her deal is defeated she will push for "no deal" in the knowledge that parliament will block it and revoke (or whatever). 
Then she can resign - being to able say with her hand on her heart -  that she tried her best to give us Brexit - but the backstabbers, feint hearts and quislings of parliament sabotaged her dutiful and coregeous efforts. 
Shes definitely bat shit enough.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 21, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> I keep feeling waves of sympathy for May, followed by waves of revulsion.



I have no sympathy for her. Yes, she's in a shit situation and it's probably pretty unpleasant being her right now but she's brought every scrap of this misery on herself. Unlike, choosing an example at random, some poor soul who has found themselves deported halfway across the world because their parents didn't fill in the right form back in 1953.

May is also at no immediate risk of homelessness or hunger and so is doing considerably better than a few million of the people her government is supposed to be looking out for.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> It  occurs to me that what may is planning is that once her deal is defeated she will push for "no deal" in the knowledge that parliament ill block it and revoke (or whatever). Then she can resign - being to able say with her hand on her heart that she tired her best to give us Brexit - but the backstabbers, feint hearts and quislings of parliament sabotaged her dutiful and coregeous efforts. Shes definitely bat shit enough.



To be fair that's not even batshit. She never wanted Brexit any way so she won't be fussed about that and the lucrative post Downing Street career opportunities for 'the PM that tried to Brexit' would be pretty immense I'm guessing.


----------



## chilango (Mar 21, 2019)

The good thing is that given that the petition is past 100k parliament are now gonna have to debate Brexit


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> The good thing is that given that the petition is past 100k parliament are now gonna have to debate Brexit



That makes a refreshing change.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> The good thing is that given that the petition is past 100k parliament are now gonna have to debate Brexit



I think they'd specifically have to debate revoking A50 to be fair. Although probably after it actually gets revoked


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

That petition has been up for a month and gone nowhere. Less than 24 hours after the Tusk statement it's gonna hit a million. Fascinating.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 21, 2019)

When's Theresa going to have had her fill of the people and go full bunker?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

Easy for Tusk in his ivory tower.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> To be fair that's not even batshit. *She never wanted Brexit any way *so she won't be fussed about that and the lucrative post Downing Street career opportunities for 'the PM that tried to Brexit' would be pretty immense I'm guessing.


I don't think that's really true. I don't believe she is that good an actor. She is pretty much unencumbered by things like ideology or principles, and she very quickly set her heart on 'delivering brexit' once it became clear that it was her route to the top. She's now wholly defined by it.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

Poi E said:


> When's Theresa going to have had her fill of the people and go full bunker?



When the Red Army is 40 kilometres to the east?


----------



## Sue (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> There are so many threads by the way do we want a thread for the march or is that just overkill?



I've some friends coming down for this and I'm meeting them after the march. It'll be nice to see them but I really don't want to talk about Brexit. Had a pissed argument with some other friends about this a couple of weeks ago and I think they're still not talking to me...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think that's really true. I don't believe she is that good an actor. She is pretty much unencumbered by things like ideology or principles, and she very quickly set her heart on 'delivering brexit' once it became clear that it was her route to the top. She's now wholly defined by it.


let's hope she takes the quick way down from the top


interesting beachy head fact, aleister crowley was the first person to climb it


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> When the Red Army is 40 kilometres to the east?


when the red army is 4km to the east


----------



## editor (Mar 21, 2019)

I'm sure it's already been posted but this thread moves so fast I'm sure some may have missed it


----------



## andysays (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> That petition has been up for a month and gone nowhere. Less than 24 hours after the Tusk statement it's gonna hit a million. Fascinating.


I'm not sure it's directly to do with Tusk's statement, necessarily, which was just a restatement of his and the EU's previous position.

It could equally well be the result of May's recent performance, or the final realisation that she really has led us all so far up shit creek that the only conceivable solution appears to be to abandon the whole thing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

editor said:


> I'm sure it's already been posted but this thread moves so fast I'm sure some may have missed it



Would be funny if it weren't an advert by a bunch of scumbags.


----------



## editor (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Would be funny if it weren't an advert by a bunch of scumbags.


I loathe Paddy Power and all the other betting bloodsuckers, but Cantona is funny. Very easy to ignore who it's made for.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

andysays said:


> I'm not sure it's directly to do with Tusk's statement, necessarily, which was just a restatement of his and the EU's previous position.
> 
> It could equally well be the result of May's recent performance, or the final realisation that she really has led us all so far up shit creek that the only conceivable solution appears to be to abandon the whole thing.



It was carefully worded, leaving options open but also restoring the threat of no deal in 8 days following the vote against it. 

You can argue it's a restatement of a previously stated position but I think the way he positioned it as a choice between May's deal and a short extension or No Deal has had an effect.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

editor said:


> I loathe Paddy Power and all the other betting bloodsuckers, but Cantona is funny.


It's very well done. And yes, he is. Just a shame who paid for it.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think that's really true. I don't believe she is that good an actor. She is pretty much unencumbered by things like ideology or principles, and she very quickly set her heart on 'delivering brexit' once it became clear that it was her route to the top. She's now wholly defined by it.



I'm not denying she made a conscious decision to deliver Brexit, I'm just saying that she didn't make that decision because she personally wanted Britain to leave the EU.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 21, 2019)

wrt  may ideological position - there's one thing she has been consistent and principled  one -  and partly explains her slavish devotion to "red lines" - she is a myopic racist obsessed  with reducing immigration.


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 21, 2019)

1 Mil coming up... any second......


----------



## wayward bob (Mar 21, 2019)

watching it count up is quite soothing


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> 1 Mil coming up... any second......



Not quite any second but it will probably be there before May finishes her speech to the EU27.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 21, 2019)

wayward bob said:


> watching it count up is quite soothing



I hadn't thought of it that way but quite something certainly. It jumps 2-300 at a go.


----------



## andysays (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> It was carefully worded, leaving options open but also restoring the threat of no deal in 8 days following the vote against it.
> 
> You can argue it's a restatement of a previously stated position but I think the way he positioned it as a choice between May's deal and a short extension or No Deal has had an effect.


I'm sure it's had an effect, but it's more or less impossible to quantify how much of the current feeling is down to Tusk, how much to May personally and how much to other factors.

To pin it all on Tusk is unrealistic, I think, and plays into a particular narrative of it all being the EU's fault and them subverting British democracy.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

andysays said:


> I'm sure it's had an effect, but it's more or less impossible to quantify how much of the current feeling is down to Tusk, how much to May personally and how much to other factors.
> 
> To pin it all on Tusk is unrealistic, I think, and plays into a particular narrative of it all being the EU's fault.



I'm not saying it's all the result of what Tusk said, I just said I thought he'd played a blinder from his perspective and that it has had an effect. May's performance last night has definitely also been a factor. I think what I was trying to say originally that I thought he'd done a far better job of speaking 'directly' to the masses than she had.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I'm not saying it's all the result of what Tusk said, I just said I thought he'd played a blinder from his perspective and that it has had an effect. May's performance last night has definitely also been a factor. I think what I was trying to say originally that I thought he'd done a far better job of speaking 'directly' to the masses than she had.


Looking at the numbers, it appears it was May's speech that was the catalyst. It's at 1m now. It was 300,000 around midnight last night. My guess is that it really took off just after May went on telly. 

Last night was May's attempt at being a populist leader. As with everything, she appears to have made a hash of it.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Looking at the numbers, it appears it was May's speech that was the catalyst. It's at 1m now. It was 300,000 around midnight last night. My guess is that it really took off just after May went on telly.
> 
> Last night was May's attempt at being a populist leader. As with everything, she appears to have made a hash of it.



As I said, if you're trying to be a populist you have to do it properly! "I know you're all tired and just want your politicians to get on with it" is not quality populist rhetoric. 

Perhaps it was, but her even giving that speech was a result of the Tusk statement and the emergency debate.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

It's past a million. I'm not even sure if May has started her speech yet.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

Oh god Frances O'Grady makes me sick.


----------



## tommers (Mar 21, 2019)

Million up.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 21, 2019)

tommers said:


> Million up.



... and crashed again.

I'm wondering whether you need to click on the confirmation email before you get counted.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 21, 2019)

yes


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 21, 2019)

tommers said:


> Million up.


Just 16.4 million to go!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 21, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Easy for Tusk in his ivory tower.



Only got this on the second pass. Very good.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> It's past a million. I'm not even sure if May has started her speech yet.



Oh god, she's not doing another fucking speech is she?


----------



## tommers (Mar 21, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Just 16.4 million to go!



It's running at roughly a 1000 a minute.

Will it get there before we leave?

The answer is no.  11 and a bit days to go.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

8ball said:


> ... and crashed again.
> 
> I'm wondering whether you need to click on the confirmation email before you get counted.


It says that you do.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 21, 2019)

8ball said:


> ... and crashed again.
> 
> I'm wondering whether you need to click on the confirmation email before you get counted.



You do.

When I did it I got sent to a page which reminded me that my local MP is Chris Leslie, a reminder I could frankly have done without.


----------



## tommers (Mar 21, 2019)

Those poor sysadmins must be well pissed off.  Nice easy Thursday to see them into the weekend.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 21, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Oh god, she's not doing another fucking speech is she?


She can do as many as she likes if the end result is the performance of petitions such as this.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 21, 2019)

tommers said:


> 11 and a bit days to go.


7 and a bit..


----------



## 8ball (Mar 21, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> You do.



Ah, so the count could go back down again. 

edit:  ignore me - I thought you meant "you do get counted".
Going by the delay in emails, it could be a couple of million in reality at this point.

edit2:  found the email in my spam folder, so ignore the above


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 21, 2019)

tommers said:


> Those poor sysadmins must be well pissed off.  Nice easy Thursday to see them into the weekend.



Given that their job is basically ignoring the public, which I do all day for free, I don't have too much sympathy tbh.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 21, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> 7 and a bit..


8 and a bit. 11pm next Friday is the precise time.

Bit like when the clocks go back.  Except this time they start whirring.


----------



## chilango (Mar 21, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Oh god, she's not doing another fucking speech is she?



No.




She's just doing the same one again.



Again.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 8 and a bit. 11pm next Friday is the precise time.
> 
> Bit like when the clocks go back.  Except this time they start whirring.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 8 and a bit. 11pm next Friday is the precise time.
> 
> Bit like when the clocks go back.  Except this time they start whirring.



I'm going to get on my town's local Facebook group and see if I can organise a street party.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 21, 2019)

grit said:


> I have to admit every now and again I do recognize what level of professional and personal pressure she is under.


I really struggle with the word professional, it has a very fluid meaning and is sometimes used as an insidious excuse for oppression.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 21, 2019)

Hard to see which way this is going to go, but I think I've spotted a theme; that it is usually a dismal, shit letdown. So I reckon May's deal could be in with a chance still. Fucking hell though, eight days to go to come up with something. It would kick the can further along the road also, they seem to like doing that.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 21, 2019)

She’s united the nation!


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

Leave without a deal running at 373,216
Revoke the whole fucking thing at 1,027,408.

Of course these figures have become entirely meaningless after the irresponsible actions of danny la rouge . The Chartists spent ages filling their petitions with Queen Victorias and Dukes of Wellington, only for their honest toil to be thrown back in their faces by the likes of Mr la rouge and Arron Banks.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Leave without a deal running at 373,216
> Revoke the whole fucking thing at 1,027,408.
> 
> Of course these figures have become entirely meaningless after the irresponsible actions of danny la rouge . The Chartists spent ages filling their petitions with Queen Victorias and Dukes of Wellington, only for their honest toil to be thrown back in their faces by the likes of Mr la rouge and Arron Banks.



Although danny la rouge does it with a certain panache.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> 7 and a bit..


Can we get a ruling on this from Ranbay ?


----------



## cantsin (Mar 21, 2019)

farage is going to get one of his mates ( Salvini / Orban / Polish etc ) to reject the extension  plan, No Deal brexit on 29th, #FBPE mobs lose the plot, barricades up in bourgie ghettos of London, south Manc etc, before the hardcore go on general strike, bringing MSM and brand strategy / digital marketing industry to a grinding halt, Chukka + Tinge declaring themselves a provisional govt, Brian Cox starting the biggest online petition ever known in the world etc


----------



## grit (Mar 21, 2019)

philosophical said:


> I really struggle with the word professional, it has a very fluid meaning and is sometimes used as an insidious excuse for oppression.



In this context I meant, she is being paid for this.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Although danny la rouge does it with a certain panache.


Yeah, but he's like a Schrodinger's Emily Davison, simultaneously trampled by the King's horse and by Michel Barnier's.


----------



## editor (Mar 21, 2019)

The fuck....

 

So they're giving money to FB now.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 21, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> She’s united the nation!
> 
> View attachment 165209


i might be on my righteous horse here but the notion of "national humiliation" in this is bullshit...reeks of pushing our weight around on the world stage and saving face against those euurghopeans. Most of that 90% will be voting Tory AGAIN at the next election.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 21, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> You do.
> 
> When I did it I got sent to a page which reminded me that my local MP is Chris Leslie, a reminder I could frankly have done without.



Mine reminded me my MP is Thangam ''get in the sea'' Debbonaire. I laughed because I've moved house twice since then. But I checked and now it's some tory (_actual _tory ugh), so I'm laughing on the other side of my face.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 21, 2019)

edit: second thoughts, nope.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

editor said:


> The fuck....
> 
> View attachment 165211
> 
> So they're giving money to FB now.


At least that will annoy Nick Clegg.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> At least that will annoy Nick Clegg.



Don't think he'll be that annoyed at being given money!


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 21, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Thangam Debbonaire? What is he, a character out of the fucking Viz?
> 
> e2a: She apparently.



oh come on, she had fifteen minutes of flames a couple of years ago when she tried to have someone done for making threats when they told her to get in the sea. she's a _massive _remainer and corbyn-hater.

to her credit, she also survived cancer and that's something to respect even in a blairite.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

MPs advised to travel in groups to avoid abuse over Brexit


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> MPs advised to travel in groups to avoid abuse over Brexit



Build a Pitfall Trap

''5. Cover the trap with a piece of wood or tile, raised a little above the ground using a couple of stones so that the mini-beasts can crawl underneath.''


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 21, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I have no sympathy for her. Yes, she's in a shit situation and it's probably pretty unpleasant being her right now but she's brought every scrap of this misery on herself. Unlike, choosing an example at random, some poor soul who has found themselves deported halfway across the world because their parents didn't fill in the right form back in 1953.
> 
> May is also at no immediate risk of homelessness or hunger and so is doing considerably better than a few million of the people her government is supposed to be looking out for.


Of course - hence the “waves of revulsion”.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> That petition has been up for a month and gone nowhere. Less than 24 hours after the Tusk statement it's gonna hit a million. Fascinating.


Was it after the Tusk statement or was it after May’s car crash statement?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> MPs advised to travel in groups to avoid abuse over Brexit


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


>


Send them through the Running Man maze, empty chamber pots on them, delete their John Lewis account...


----------



## 8ball (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> ...delete their John Lewis account...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> delete their John Lewis account...


Steady on now, we have to retain some degree of humanity here.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Oh god Frances O'Grady makes me sick.


Yep, pally up with the fucking CBI. Twat.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 21, 2019)

How a petition to revoke Article 50 blew up and broke the internet | WIRED UK

It isn’t just my award. This is for all of you who helped me make it possible. I’d like to thank the moon, the stars, willow trees, pebbles, Formica, scones, drain cleaner, Liberace...


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Yep, pally up with the fucking CBI. Twat.



Frances O’ Grady always says her political hero is James Connolly. I wonder what he would think!

I loathe all this compromise, consensus and cosying up. The trade union movement is no longer seen by many workers as a method of forwarding the betterment of its members. They are seen as suppliers of contacts to insurance and PPI claims providers.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> How a petition to revoke Article 50 blew up and broke the internet | WIRED UK
> 
> It isn’t just my award. This is for all of you who helped me make it possible. I’d like to thank the moon, the stars, willow trees, pebbles, Formica, scones, drain cleaner, Liberace...


Nelson Mandela, The Chartists, Aung San Suu kyi, Millicent Fawcett, _your boys took one helluva beating_!


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Was it after the Tusk statement or was it after May’s car crash statement?



I think her statement was along time comming, about time she spoke to the people and not the dicks in parliament


----------



## teqniq (Mar 21, 2019)

Oh, that's all right then.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Mar 21, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> I think her statement was along time comming, about time she spoke to the people and not the dicks in parliament


did you just join this forum to post that?

also as far as I can tell I am a person and she certainly didnt speak for me


----------



## gosub (Mar 21, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> I think her statement was along time comming, about time she spoke to the people and not the dicks in parliament



As much as I agreed with what she was saying....that we ended up here was as a result of HER deliberately running down the clock and she needs the people who she was talking past to achieve anything us great unwashed not so much


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2019)

Ah, lads.



Read the whole thread, it has all the magic you'd expect.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 21, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> I think her statement was along time comming, about time she spoke to the people and not the dicks in parliament



A million plus signatures on that petition says that a significant number of people were completely unimpressed with that speech.


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> did you just join this forum to post that?
> 
> also as far as I can tell I am a person and she certainly didnt speak for me


No!
and I said to not for the people, whether you agreed or not  thats on you


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 21, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Ah, lads.
> 
> 
> 
> Read the whole thread, it has all the magic you'd expect.




He must have been trolling.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Mar 21, 2019)

well, I was going to say welcome to the boards


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> well i was going to say welcome to the boards


 Thanks LOL


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 21, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> Thanks LOL


How're you managing now you're not allowed to drive yourself around?


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> How're you managing now you're not allowed to drive yourself around?


not bad, weird having to rely on divers


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 21, 2019)

Hold on a sec. Slight confusion here. France is saying “fuck off and die with your extension” unless May’s deal is voted for next week. But I thought Bercow (“gawd bless ‘im”) had stopped all that with his brilliant, people saving intervention? Have I missed something?

Has May’s motion been put down in comic sans, this fulfilling the ‘substantial change’ criteria?

Yours, a confused member of the electorate (in an abstainer kind of way).

Edit. Who has called for May’s head to be chopped off? That sounds a lot cheaper than a flight on a 737-Max. Up (off) with this sort of thing.


----------



## pogofish (Mar 21, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> He must have been trolling.



Dunno - I've heard quite a few bampots express that particular idea, for a while now as the solution to all our problems..!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Was it after the Tusk statement or was it after May’s car crash statement?



Both, I think we're agreed, but one was in response to the other.


----------



## chilango (Mar 21, 2019)

If, and it's a big if, May somehow gets to table MV3 next week, what are the odds on her breaking her historic 230 against PB?


----------



## wayward bob (Mar 21, 2019)

revoke article 50 petition going up around 5k a minute atm


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

wayward bob said:


> revoke article 50 petition going up around 5k a minute atm



lets see if it gets to more that 17 mill


----------



## binka (Mar 21, 2019)

I don't get the obsession with this petition? It's not like we didn't already know there are millions of people in the UK who want to cancel Brexit.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

wayward bob said:


> revoke article 50 petition going up around 5k a minute atm


crashed again.


----------



## Cid (Mar 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> If, and it's a big if, May somehow gets to table MV3 next week, what are the odds on her breaking her historic 230 against PB?



Unlikely I'd have thought... she's pretty much guaranteed to drop 30 with DUP/ERG, but might be able to play on fears of no deal to get a few labour votes.

Thing is though, is it going to be a straight yes/no vote? If she's playing the last chance card, then so is everyone else, so also depends on amendments tabled. That could massively fuck her up.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 21, 2019)

binka said:


> I don't get the obsession with this petition? It's not like we didn't already know there are millions of people in the UK who want to cancel Brexit.


Nothing wrong with giving the tories something else to boil their piss...and all for the click of a mouse!


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2019)

pogofish said:


> Dunno - I've heard quite a few bampots express that particular idea, for a while now as the solution to all our problems..!


If you liked the 6 counties, you'll love the 26.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 21, 2019)

binka said:


> I don't get the obsession with this petition? It's not like we didn't already know there are millions of people in the UK who want to cancel Brexit.



Some people seem to think these petitions on the government's website forces a debate in Parliament if they hit 100,000 signatures, they don't, any such numbers only ensures 'petitions are considered for debate in Parliament', before being totally ignored.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 21, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Some people seem to think these petitions on the government's website forces a debate in Parliament if they hit 100,000 signatures, they don't, any such numbers only ensures 'petitions are considered for debate in Parliament', before being totally ignored.



Keeps the frothing hand wringing liberals happy at least.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 21, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Keeps the frothing hand wringing liberals happy at least.



And, the IT department on over-time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Keeps the frothing hand wringing liberals happy at least.


They're never happier than when they're both hand-wringing and frothing


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> They're never happier than when they're both hand-wringing and frothing


----------



## Balbi (Mar 21, 2019)

Cabinet ministers believe risk of no-deal Brexit now 'very real'

Everything is so fucked


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 21, 2019)

Wake me up when it's time to start looting.


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 21, 2019)

If they genuinely want to stop Brexit this march on Saturday should properly kick off but it'll be ironic signs and good manners and fucking petition talk..


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 21, 2019)

Balbi said:


> Cabinet ministers believe risk of no-deal Brexit now 'very real'
> 
> Everything is so fucked



The cabinet is presumably aware that they're the people allowing May to remain in power?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)




----------



## editor (Mar 21, 2019)

Petition is over 1.3m now. 

Petition Map (by Unboxed)


----------



## wayward bob (Mar 21, 2019)

meh, no change in numbers for half an hour. taking bets on 10s of k when it does...


----------



## Cid (Mar 21, 2019)

wayward bob said:


> meh, no change in numbers for half an hour. taking bets on 10s of k when it does...



100,000.


----------



## wayward bob (Mar 21, 2019)

200k!


----------



## FiFi (Mar 21, 2019)

wayward bob said:


> meh, no change in numbers for half an hour. taking bets on 10s of k when it does...


The site was down for a while and emails not being sent/received. It was working again 10 mins ago.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 21, 2019)

I can't wait for the HBO dramatisation of all this, 10 years from now.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

Crispy said:


> I can't wait for the HBO dramatisation of all this, 10 years from now.


With all the British characters played by Frenchmen, just to annoy Prime Minister Rees-Mogg.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> With all the British characters played by Frenchmen, just to annoy Prime Minister Rees-Mogg.


_Supreme Leader_ Mogg.
*thumps chest, salutes sky*


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 21, 2019)

Easiest deal in the world. We hold all the cards.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Easiest deal in the world. We hold all the cards.




Will they wear police uniform like they did in 84-85?


----------



## Cid (Mar 21, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Easiest deal in the world. We hold all the cards.




Hmm... It's definitely not April yet.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 21, 2019)

So Mrs May is going to return to the House and pop her deal on the despatch box.
In either hand she will be holding a blunderbuss, one manufactured in Brussels, the other manufactured, probably under license in Nort-East Somerset. Either way one or the other  are likely to be fired.


----------



## wayward bob (Mar 21, 2019)

1992k and counting...

(soz, numbers clicking over is my thing )

eta: my money's on 2 mil by 11pm


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

what i dont understand is that after May's talk to the nation,  many MP who have clammered to get in front of a camera, saying i was going to support her deal but not now," bit like baby spitting out their dummy ", how principled are they when they can put a personal grievance above their beliefs and what they had believed to be for the good of the nation.


----------



## Cid (Mar 21, 2019)

wayward bob said:


> 1992k and counting...
> 
> (soz, numbers clicking over is my thing )
> 
> eta: my money's on 2 mil by 11pm



Likewise...

About to hit 2m, then I 'll go to bed.

e2a: yep, 2 mil hit.


----------



## peterkro (Mar 21, 2019)

wayward bob said:


> 1992k and counting...
> 
> (soz, numbers clicking over is my thing )
> 
> eta: my money's on 2 mil by 11pm


Easily it's only a few hundred off now.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

editor said:


> Petition is over 1.3m now.
> 
> Petition Map (by Unboxed)


2m now


----------



## Flavour (Mar 21, 2019)

This is great stuff from May. It's a shame she's such a boring straight-edge robot otherwise she'd definitely have a gripping political memoir to write somewhere down the line.


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> 2m now


long way of 17 mil


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 21, 2019)

Ding dong going on over the e petition on sky news


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 21, 2019)

May 22nd Ranbay


----------



## binka (Mar 21, 2019)

It's like one of them Facebook scam posts that says if enough people like it Zuckerberg will give everyone $100


----------



## ska invita (Mar 21, 2019)

Flavour said:


> This is great stuff from May. It's a shame she's such a boring straight-edge robot otherwise she'd definitely have a gripping political memoir to write somewhere down the line.


Bit repetitive tbh


----------



## chilango (Mar 21, 2019)

Does anyone remember Run Lola Run? (Great film)



Lola repeats the same day over and over trying to make the tiny change that will end up saving her boyfriend's life.

This is like that. 

Except there is no boyfriend. And May isn't making any changes.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 21, 2019)

So the new situation:

Pass mv3 and UK stays in till 22 May, in order to give time to prep, but not elect MEPs.

Fail mv3 and UK just gets a 2 week extension to 12 April.


----------



## chilango (Mar 21, 2019)

Crispy said:


> So the new situation:
> 
> Pass mv3 and UK stays in till 22 May, in order to give time to prep, but not elect MEPs.
> 
> Fail mv3 and UK just gets a 2 week extension to 12 April.



Enough time to ditch May and pull A50, basically.

I don't see any easy way for a Norway+ thing to happen.

It seems to be May's Deal vs. No Deal vs. No Brexit.

Am I reading this right?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 21, 2019)

Not sure, I think long extension is still in play if asked for no?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 21, 2019)

Crispy said:


> Fail mv3 and UK just gets a 2 week extension to 12 April.



and then either no deal or "an alternative plan" 

one of the special advisers in the brexit ministry today -


----------



## ska invita (Mar 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Not sure, I think long extension is still in play if asked for no?


April window is there to sort out a long extension

?


----------



## binka (Mar 21, 2019)

I don't see any way that no deal is allowed to happen


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> Enough time to ditch May and pull A50, basically.
> 
> I don't see any easy way for a Norway+ thing to happen.
> 
> ...



thatswhat the eu are banking on


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 21, 2019)

Shes said, 'leave in an orderly manner' 5 times in 5 minutes. She needs turning off and on again.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

Just seen her performance at the press conference. A slight hint of apology over her comments yesterday, then she's right back into it... got to get her deal through, will be put to parliament next week. A good day for groundhogs.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Not sure, I think long extension is still in play if asked for no?


Yes. Reporter asked how long and tusk said 'till the end' through a smirk.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 21, 2019)

Nothing too much has changed the last few days from what I can tell, just an injection of urgency

The clock run down on May for a change


----------



## chilango (Mar 21, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> thatswhat the eu are banking on



Indeed.

Not exactly a surprise.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

If she loses again next week, there's still a bit of time after that for indicative votes and the like - advantage Corbyn/soft brexit type thing. So we'll presumably get back into her postponing the vote again till the last possible moment within this new deadline, so that she repeat her strategy of making it 'my deal or no deal'. As always, when she hasn't got the numbers, delay is her only weapon.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

Anyway, some poor cunt in some newspaper office is as we speak having to do the 'what happens next' flowchart.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 21, 2019)

I wonder if she'll stand down if she loses the vote....or more likely get told to stand down.

Could be dust by Wednesday


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> If she loses again next week, there's still a bit of time after that for indicative votes and the like - advantage Corbyn/soft brexit type thing. So we'll presumably get back into her postponing the vote again till the last possible moment within this new deadline, so that she repeat her strategy of making it 'my deal or no deal'. As always, when she hasn't got the numbers, delay is her only weapon.


Corbyn's as you say softBrexit is no Brexit, he calls it that to stop being wiped out in the next GE, remember most Labour voters voted for Brexit.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 21, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> remember most Labour voters voted for Brexit.


Did a majority of Conservative and Labour constituencies vote to leave in the EU referendum?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> Corbyn's as you say softBrexit is no Brexit, he calls it that to stop being wiped out in the next GE, remember most Labour voters voted for Brexit.


Wouldn't disagree with you. But Corbyn's problem isn't which side he (eventually) comes down on over Brexit, it's the fact that he didn't engage with those voters, didn't seek to _organise_ with alongside working class voters.  Getting it wrong or right on Brexit isn't his primary problem.


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Did a majority of Conservative and Labour constituencies vote to leave in the EU referendum?



so why is he wanting a nonbrexit deal?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I wonder if she'll stand down if she loses the vote....or more likely get told to stand down.
> 
> Could be dust by Wednesday



I'm guessing a condition of a longer extension would be a change in political circumstances - so effectively, Parliament told get rid of May or you get No Deal. 



Phil752 said:


> Corbyn's as you say softBrexit is no Brexit, he calls it that to stop being wiped out in the next GE, remember most Labour voters voted for Brexit.



I can see you're going to be tedious.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 21, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> Corbyn's as you say softBrexit is no Brexit, he calls it that to stop being wiped out in the next GE, remember most Labour voters voted for Brexit.


Don’t remember that at all given that 65% Labour voters voted remain.


----------



## newbie (Mar 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> Does anyone remember Run Lola Run? (Great film)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've listened to the music a lot with no idea it came from a film.


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Wouldn't disagree with you. But Corbyn's problem isn't which side he (eventually) comes down on over Brexit, it's the fact that he didn't engage with those voters, didn't seek to _organise_ with alongside working class voters.  Getting it wrong or right on Brexit isn't his primary problem.


Quite agree


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Don’t remember that at all given that 65% Labour voters voted remain.



 was that voters or constituencies


----------



## brogdale (Mar 21, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> was that voters or constituencies


What you said.


----------



## belboid (Mar 21, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> was that voters or constituencies


How Britain Voted | YouGov


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 21, 2019)

belboid said:


> How Britain Voted | YouGov



quite right ,so why is he so on the fence?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 22, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Don’t remember that at all given that 65% Labour voters voted remain.


It's a delicate position. In many cases, labour mps represent constituencies that voted leave in which the majority of those that voted for them in the last election voted remain. It's the tories voting leave that have tipped them into becoming a leave constituency. So what do they do? Do they pretend to represent everyone, including the tories, and piss off the majority of those that actually voted for them, or do they go with the majority of those that voted for them knowing that that means they're only representing a faction?

tbh it doesn't really do much more than highlight a contradiction in the system. They're not really constituency mps - they vote either labour or tory, not some mix of the two according to the sizes of their majorities. To be consistent, they should only vote according to their party wishes. Bollocks to the minority that didn't vote for them - the UK system doesn't give them a voice.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 22, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> quite right ,so why is he so on the fence?


board etiquette: you say something that's factually wrong, such as most labour voters voted leave, and are pulled up on it, you acknowledge it. 'soz, got that wrong' will do it.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 22, 2019)

I wonder which individual or segment of society will get the blame if Brexit is delayed indefinitely and/or the 'economy' hits the fan?


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 22, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> board etiquette: you say something that's factually wrong, such as most labour voters voted leave, and are pulled up on it, you acknowledge it. 'soz, got that wrong' will do it.



but why is he so dancing on the fence, why not go for a straight remain, rarther than mixing it, his deal is all but remaining


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 22, 2019)

Humberto said:


> I wonder which individual or segment of society will get the blame if Brexit is delayed indefinitely and/or the 'economy' hits the fan?


Farage is rubbing his hands at getting a shot at the EU elections


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 22, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> board etiquette: you say something that's factually wrong, such as most labour voters voted leave, and are pulled up on it, you acknowledge it. 'soz, got that wrong' will do it.


I thought I had


----------



## Humberto (Mar 22, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> Farage is rubbing his hands at getting a shot at the EU elections



I doubt that. He is a flange though so it wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 22, 2019)

Humberto said:


> I doubt that. He is a flange though so it wouldn't surprise me.


may be but i think he would be a front runner in the EU elections


----------



## Humberto (Mar 22, 2019)

Don't see his relevance tbh.


----------



## Phil752 (Mar 22, 2019)

Humberto said:


> Don't see his relevance tbh.



imo it why they do not want a long extention, if a ukip type party did very well in the EU elections, even better than they did last time, it could spring board them into UK politics


----------



## Humberto (Mar 22, 2019)

Difficult to see that, as a what if.


----------



## Celyn (Mar 22, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Shes said, 'leave in an orderly manner' 5 times in 5 minutes. She needs turning off and on again.


The bit about leaving in an orderly manner sounds like the sort of thing you say when there might be a fire.  "Oh, just a drill. Nothing to worry about, leave now, don't go back for your jacket or handbag, don' t use the lifts, get out now. Oh no, nothing to worry about ... get bloody OUT!"


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 22, 2019)

Celyn said:


> The bit about leaving in an orderly manner sounds like the sort of thing you say when there might be a fire.  "Oh, just a drill. Nothing to worry about, leave now, don't go back for your jacket or handbag, don' t use the lifts, get out now. Oh no, nothing to worry about ... get bloody OUT!"


Form an orderly queue, see you at the designated meeting place in the car park for roll call. Fuck it, Fucking run, every man for himself.


----------



## Celyn (Mar 22, 2019)

In one workplace, I had to try to keep a straight face when telling a new person about fire drill routes. From the library, we were supposed to go out of the library into the hallway/ corridor, go a couple of hundred yards/metres and the out the main doors. Well no, why would I do that when the library had French windows allowing egress to the gardens? Because they are not officially doors, of course.  .  There was even a pond just outside the library, which might have a certain appeal in the event of a fire but no, civil service logic dictated going further *into* the building so as to join the queue of people going to the main doors on the other side of the building. Huh.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 22, 2019)

Wilf said:


> If she loses again next week, there's still a bit of time after that for indicative votes and the like - advantage Corbyn/soft brexit type thing. So we'll presumably get back into her postponing the vote again till the last possible moment within this new deadline, so that she repeat her strategy of making it 'my deal or no deal'. As always, when she hasn't got the numbers, delay is her only weapon.



The Corbyn/soft Brexit thing can’t happen because absolutely nobody is going to give Corbyn a victory, not even his own party. Tribalism will eclipse doing the right thing.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 22, 2019)

On a happier note

Dublin pub hosts 'leaving party' for UK on Brexit day with performances from The Backstop Boys - Independent.ie


----------



## andysays (Mar 22, 2019)

Phil752 said:


> imo it why they do not want a long extention, if a ukip type party did very well in the EU elections, even better than they did last time, it could spring board them into UK politics


Farage doesn't have a party anymore though, does he, and the idea that he will form one and select candidates to run in a possible EU election in a few months is simple fantasy on your part.

If there were Euro elections in the UK in May (I don't think there will be but if), Farage himself might stand and might even get enough votes to remain with his snout in the EU trough, but the idea that he will lead a new party and that EU elections could spring board them into UK politics is completely ridiculous.


----------



## MrCurry (Mar 22, 2019)

So assuming that MV3 fails, which seem highly likely since May has peed off even MPs who were supporting her before her address telling the nation what it thinks... 

 ... then we are looking at an April 12 deadline to go back to the EU with a proposal to go forwards into a “long” extension.  I can’t see how that proposal will be anything other than a GE.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Mar 22, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's a delicate position. In many cases, labour mps represent constituencies that voted leave in which the majority of those that voted for them in the last election voted remain. It's the tories voting leave that have tipped them into becoming a leave constituency. So what do they do? Do they pretend to represent everyone, including the tories, and piss off the majority of those that actually voted for them, or do they go with the majority of those that voted for them knowing that that means they're only representing a faction?


Being an MP doesn't mean you're supposed to vote according to whatever the dominant opinion is among those in your constituency. You represent them, not vote on their behalf.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 22, 2019)

andysays said:


> Farage doesn't have a party anymore though, does he, and the idea that he will form one and select candidates to run in a possible EU election in a few months is simple fantasy on your part.
> 
> If there were Euro elections in the UK in May (I don't think there will be but if), Farage himself might stand and might even get enough votes to remain with his snout in the EU trough, but the idea that he will lead a new party and that EU elections could spring board them into UK politics is completely ridiculous.



Not sure about that, I can see Farage taking on the leadership of the Brexit Party, which already has 8 former UKIP MEPs onside, more than UKIP has now, I can see other former UKIP MEPs, that are currently sitting as independents coming across, and plenty of other former UKIP candidates offering to stand too. 

They claim to have over £1m in donations so far, and I can see that rapidly increasing if we take part in the EU election. The £1m is equal to what the Labour party spent on the last EU election, whereas UKIP spent almost £3m.

I think their main problem will be people being confused between them & UKIP, thus splitting the leave protest vote.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 22, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> So assuming that MV3 fails, which seem highly likely since May has peed off even MPs who were supporting her before her address telling the nation what it thinks...
> 
> ... then we are looking at an April 12 deadline to go back to the EU with a proposal to go forwards into a “long” extension.  I can’t see how that proposal will be anything other than a GE.


 Other possibilities post fail i can think of are
1. May could stand down this week and be replaced by someone who wants to crash out (v unlikely)
2. Long extension triggered by May as her last act, but then action moves to the Commons, indicative votes etc, effectively a government of national unity of sorts. Suggests an immediate lame-duck May replacement though, so unlikely
3. Mays replacement brings Norway to the house, and owns it. Unlikely

er yeah, all unlikely for Tory unity, so GE does make a lot of sense. Hard to know how the Tories will respond to a long extension - they may well hate it but they are in power so the ball is in their court.  A GE does potentially threaten their power, so may well try and duck that option. Does really depend a lot on who replaces May. Quite a scary proposition when you look who is out there in the field


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 22, 2019)

If anything, judging by the latest petition, momentum and enthusiasm will be with the remain vote. Exactly where this ends up I’m unsure, and slightly worried it could go to Tinge although suspect they won’t have their shit together in time (can’t see it going to the Lib Dems, people have memories).


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Not sure about that, I can see Farage taking on the leadership of the Brexit Party, which already has 8 former UKIP MEPs onside, more than UKIP has now, I can see other former UKIP MEPs, that are currently sitting as independents coming across, and plenty of other former UKIP candidates offering to stand too.
> 
> They claim to have over £1m in donations so far, and I can see that rapidly increasing if we take part in the EU election. The £1m is equal to what the Labour party spent on the last EU election, whereas UKIP spent almost £3m.
> 
> I think their main problem will be people being confused between them & UKIP, thus splitting the leave protest vote.


I think their main problem would be nigel farage whose recent activities haven't been crowned with glory


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

Celyn said:


> The bit about leaving in an orderly manner sounds like the sort of thing you say when there might be a fire.  "Oh, just a drill. Nothing to worry about, leave now, don't go back for your jacket or handbag, don' t use the lifts, get out now. Oh no, nothing to worry about ... get bloody OUT!"


If they want to stay let them burn


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I think their main problem would be nigel farage whose recent activities haven't been crowned with glory



Not sure that would matter to people inclined to use their vote as a protest, he's still seen as Mr Brexit.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 22, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> board etiquette: you say something that's factually wrong, such as most labour voters voted leave, and are pulled up on it, you acknowledge it. 'soz, got that wrong' will do it.



Are we talking about the same board?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Not sure that would matter to people inclined to use their vote as a protest, he's still seen as Mr Brexit.


Yeh that's precisely why he'll do badly


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> board etiquette: you say something that's factually wrong, such as most labour voters voted leave, and are pulled up on it, you acknowledge it. 'soz, got that wrong' will do it.


You don't


----------



## ska invita (Mar 22, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> If anything, judging by the latest petition,


Its irrelevant, especially if a long extension comes into play. the heat of the crash out deadline is gone  and we're back to foot dragging and brexit colour charts


----------



## ska invita (Mar 22, 2019)

What that amendment where people vote for Mays deal at this stage in return for a referendum on the final deal? Kyle Walker?  Thats not out of the picture yet


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 22, 2019)

Kyle Walker the footballer? Where does he come into this?


----------



## andysays (Mar 22, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Not sure about that, I can see Farage taking on the leadership of the Brexit Party, which already has 8 former UKIP MEPs onside, more than UKIP has now, I can see other former UKIP MEPs, that are currently sitting as independents coming across, and plenty of other former UKIP candidates offering to stand too.
> 
> They claim to have over £1m in donations so far, and I can see that rapidly increasing if we take part in the EU election. The £1m is equal to what the Labour party spent on the last EU election, whereas UKIP spent almost £3m.
> 
> I think their main problem will be people being confused between them & UKIP, thus splitting the leave protest vote.


We'll see...


----------



## killer b (Mar 22, 2019)

Kyle Wilson. It's out of the picture until theres another cliff edge imo. If even then.


----------



## killer b (Mar 22, 2019)

Stephen Bush is good this morning, as ever. Think he's about right here.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 22, 2019)

killer b said:


> Stephen Bush is good this morning, as ever. Think he's about right here.



Yup, that about covers it.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 22, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Kyle Walker the footballer? Where does he come into this?


Scores in overtime


killer b said:


> Kyle Wilson. It's out of the picture until theres another cliff edge imo. If even then.


theres a cliff edge this coming week no?


killer b said:


> Stephen Bush is good this morning, as ever. Think he's about right here.



all the options he lays out he also reckons will fail! its fun this


----------



## killer b (Mar 22, 2019)

ska invita said:


> theres a cliff edge this coming week no?


unless I've drastically misread everything, whatever happens this week theres an extension till 12th April.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> You don't



I did it once and got it wrong.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 22, 2019)

killer b said:


> unless I've drastically misread everything, whatever happens this week theres an extension till 12th April.


yes but thats not far away and the cliff edge of what next is daunting to lots of mps for different reasons


----------



## Flavour (Mar 22, 2019)

killer b said:


> unless I've drastically misread everything, whatever happens this week theres an extension till 12th April.



interestingly, during those days, the power shifts to the EU's hand, as they can then threaten the UK with immediate no-deal Brexit (cancelling the extension) if the UK parliament doesn't play ball. So far we've focused mostly on the incompetence of the government and the impossibility of any parliamentary majority - but i think the episode in which the EU shows its wrath through its actions is yet to begin properly


----------



## killer b (Mar 22, 2019)

ska invita said:


> yes but thats not far away and the cliff edge of what next is daunting to lots of mps for different reasons


Sure, but it isn't this week. As we've seen, a cliff edge being imminent in days seems to be what concentrates the minds, rather than one two weeks away...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

Poi E said:


> I did it once and got it wrong.


Auld lbj has an unsavoury record of rounding on those who point out his errors


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

killer b said:


> unless I've drastically misread everything, whatever happens this week theres an extension till 12th April.


And *then* the shit will hit the fan


----------



## brogdale (Mar 22, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's a delicate position. In many cases, labour mps represent constituencies that voted leave in which the majority of those that voted for them in the last election voted remain. It's the tories voting leave that have tipped them into becoming a leave constituency. So what do they do? Do they pretend to represent everyone, including the tories, and piss off the majority of those that actually voted for them, or do they go with the majority of those that voted for them knowing that that means they're only representing a faction?
> 
> tbh it doesn't really do much more than highlight a contradiction in the system. They're not really constituency mps - they vote either labour or tory, not some mix of the two according to the sizes of their majorities. To be consistent, they should only vote according to their party wishes. Bollocks to the minority that didn't vote for them - the UK system doesn't give them a voice.


FWIW, I don't think any of those deliberations highlight a contradiction in party system representative democracy; those who support rep dem could even cast the present situation as the system working precisely as it is meant to in a sort of Burkean/Utilitarian manner.

The contradictions result from the resort to direct democracy mediated through Parliament.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

killer b said:


> Stephen Bush is good this morning, as ever. Think he's about right here.




He's also saying today that revoking A50 is becoming more likely. 

Could Article 50 be revoked? A growing number of MPs think so


----------



## chilango (Mar 22, 2019)

If there was a secret vote in Parliament on revoking A50 I bet it'd easily pass.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> If there was a secret vote in Parliament on revoking A50 I bet it'd easily pass.



By even more than May's deal was defeated by. Boris Johnson would vote for it if he could.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 22, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> He's also saying today that revoking A50 is becoming more likely.
> 
> Could Article 50 be revoked? A growing number of MPs think so



Without a majority it's as unlikely as everything else. I can't imagine any way other than total desperation to stop a crash out that it would happen, and with a long extension on the table that seems very unlikely


----------



## Winot (Mar 22, 2019)

Earlier cliff edge of sorts - HoC due to rise 4 April. Can be changed of course but possible cancellation of holidays might also focus MPs minds.

Balance seems to me to be between political fear of taking part in EU elections (necessary for longer extension) and fear of no deal.


----------



## newbie (Mar 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> If there was a secret vote in Parliament on revoking A50 I bet it'd easily pass.


so euro elections and the burning down of constituency offices?  Public or private vote, the options are the same.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

newbie said:


> so euro elections and the burning down of constituency offices?  Public or private vote, the options are the same.


ah but following a public vote the mps would be incinerated in their constituency offices while after a private vote some of them might escape the flames


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Without a majority it's as unlikely as everything else. I can't imagine any way other than total desperation to stop a crash out that it would happen, and with a long extension on the table that seems very unlikely



Completely agree - presumably May has to go for a longer extension though.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 22, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Completely agree - presumably May has to go for a longer extension though.


In a way it's not totally down to her, if extension relies on an agreed plan b, that agreement has to come about collectively some how ...  The Tories are going to hate this next bit


----------



## chilango (Mar 22, 2019)

newbie said:


> so euro elections and the burning down of constituency offices?  Public or private vote, the options are the same.



Consituency offices aren't going to be burnt down if we don't Brexit. 

Euro elections? Not their problem. They're MPs not MEPs.


----------



## agricola (Mar 22, 2019)

The Russian influence continues apace then, having the EU hold this no-deal deadline on Cosmonautics Day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

agricola said:


> The Russian influence continues apace then, having the EU hold this no-deal deadline on Cosmonautics Day.


every day is a russian 'day'

for example, today is the day of the worker in the cable industry


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 22, 2019)

Some predictions (im confident enough to put up to £1.00 of my own money on these turning out correct!) Element of fuck knows! gets greater as we progress.

1. Mays deal will get defeated heavily again. That means the UK has until April 12th to come up with something or go over the cliff.
2. Parliament will move  amendments and what not to take control of the brexit process.
3. May will resign - she really has no use anymore and no friends.
4. fuck knows. massive pagga in parliament over how to avoid no deal. everything from revoking a50 to 2nd ref to general election thrown into the pot.
5. some sort of fudgey deal with the EU that extends brexit for 18 months or more allowing the UK to have another GE in May/June - EU wants definite plan by April 12 but UK might plausibly argue that current parliament cant come up with one without new elections (which may well not solve anything at all either) . Probably means UK taking part in Eu elections.
6. Ructions in labour party over whether to campaign on a 2nd ref. Some sort of slippery fudge position emerges - labours pledges to negotiate a "soft brexit" deal which is then put to the people?
7. But nothing compared to the explosions in the tory party as they choose a new leader (certain to be a brexiteer) . Tory party campaign for hard brexit - chunk of their remainer mps resign  - either not standing in their seats or joining the tinge.
8. General Election. All hail lord bucket head and people's republic of albion and northern ireland.


----------



## agricola (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> every day is a russian 'day'
> 
> for example, today is the day of the worker in the cable industry



They are always one step ahead of us.


----------



## Cid (Mar 22, 2019)

I doubt extension would result in much direct action, though were I Parker’s green ink division I’d be doing a bit of stockpiling.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

agricola said:


> They are always one step ahead of us.


putin a great fan of madness apparently


----------



## Winot (Mar 22, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> Some predictions (im confident enough to put up to £1.00 of my own money on these turning out correct!) Element of fuck knows! gets greater as we progress.
> 
> 1. Mays deal will get defeated heavily again. That means the UK has until April 12th to come up with something or go over the cliff.
> 2. Parliament will move  amendments and what not to take control of the brexit process.
> ...



All sounds plausible but I think the weak link is (3) - May will hang on until she is forced out imo. So almost everything rests on men in grey suits having the cojones to may her a visit.


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 22, 2019)

May will get another heavy defeat and fail to get her deal through, and we'll crash out on the 12th April.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 22, 2019)

Winot said:


> All sounds plausible but I think the weak link is (3) - May will hang on until she is forced out imo. So almost everything rests on men in grey suits having the cojones to may her a visit.



I would be amazed if she isn't forced out. she dies with her deal.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 22, 2019)

If we have a deep state, now's the time to bump her off, guys.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> I would be amazed if she isn't forced out. she dies with her deal.


kicked to death by enraged backbenchers


----------



## chilango (Mar 22, 2019)

Were the to be a tragic accident of some sort the conspiracy theories would be quite something to behold.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 22, 2019)

stuff_it said:


> May will get another heavy defeat and fail to get her deal through, and we'll crash out on the 12th April.



No deal will not be allowed to happen. Its it gets to within a week of the cliff edge and its looming their will be massive pressure from everywhere to prevent it - as well as the likes of the TUC, CBI and most of the media their could be tens of  thousands in parliament square. the gammons might turn up as well - but will be hugely outnumbered.
That's why  I think a General Election is probably the most likely  way out - it means that parliament doesn't have to actually decide anything.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> Were the to be a tragic accident of some sort the conspiracy theories would be quite something to behold.


perhaps if a conspiraloon was to be killed by may falling on them from the top of the beachy head


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> kicked to death by enraged backbenchers



special al fresco meeting of the 1922 committee - latest pics


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 22, 2019)

Poi E said:


> If we have a deep state, now's the time to bump her off, guys.



It's more like a derp state.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 22, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> special al fresco meeting of the 1922 committee - latest pics
> 
> 
> View attachment 165257



More al fiasco than fresco!


----------



## ska invita (Mar 22, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> That's why  I think a General Election is probably the mostly  way out - it means that parliament doesn't have to actually decide anything.


...until someone gets elected!

The easiest way out of this is for the Tories to pass Mays deal.


----------



## andysays (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> every day is a russian 'day'
> 
> for example, today is the day of the worker in the cable industry


Thanks for the reminder. I'd like to take the opportunity to extend fraternal greetings to all cable workers worldwide. 

Except for Vince Cable, of course. He's still a cunt, even today.


----------



## Cid (Mar 22, 2019)

Remain/soft brexit tories might be eyeing up the prospects for a return to the delusion that is ‘sensible, pragmatic, economy driven’ conservatism. There’s room for pushback against Corbyn on that basis I think, might open up support for GE.

And yeah, I know that’s exactly what May was trying to do, but...


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> Were the to be a tragic accident of some sort the conspiracy theories would be quite something to behold.


“Who will rid me of this troublesome android?”


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> “Who will rid me of this troublesome android?”


will no one rid me of this annoying automaton?


----------



## Cid (Mar 22, 2019)

ska invita said:


> ...until someone gets elected!
> 
> The easiest way out of this is for the Tories to pass Mays deal.



But that relies on some labour support, and the extensions (however short they are), and her speech have scuppered much real prospect of that.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 22, 2019)

ska invita said:


> ...until someone gets elected!
> 
> The easiest way out of this is for the Tories to pass Mays deal.



wont happen. everyone hates it and everyone hates her. ERG see voting her deal down as a route to no deal. remainers as a route to 2nd ref or soft brexit. labour sees it as route to general election.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> every day is a russian 'day'
> 
> for example, today is the day of the worker in the cable industry


Today is also the Swedish day, Viktor.


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 22, 2019)

Not sure what would happen if this petition thing goes over 17m... Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 22, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> wont happen. everyone hates it and everyone hates her. ERG see voting her deal down as a route to no deal. remainers as a route to 2nd ref or soft brexit. labour sees it as route to general election.



I agree.  Her 'its not me its everyone else' speech seems to have had a galvanising affect, though maybe not the one she wanted.

Being in charge of a shit shit show yet blaming everyone else is never a good look.  From hence forth I shall be referring to her as Jose Mayrinho.  I wonder if Solskjaer fancies a second job.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 22, 2019)

stuff_it said:


> Not sure what would happen if this petition thing goes over 17m... Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.



There would be a multiple other petitions doing the same thing for pro brexit.  All equally as pointless.  Brexit really has brought out the stupid in a lot of people.


----------



## andysays (Mar 22, 2019)

stuff_it said:


> Not sure what would happen if this petition thing goes over 17m... Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.


Nothing would happen, except a few smug Remoaners here and on the telly would say 'see, I told you so'.


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 22, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> There would be a multiple other petitions doing the same thing for pro brexit.  All equally as pointless.  Brexit really has brought out the stupid in a lot of people.


Except those petitions aren't bringing the petition site to its knees and getting over 100,000 signatures an hour...


----------



## teqniq (Mar 22, 2019)

Could have gone on the Question time thread too. 16 years old, very clued up.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 22, 2019)

stuff_it said:


> Not sure what would happen if this petition thing goes over 17m... Petition: Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.


It would be fun, because Remain voices in the establishment would get very agitated. But it won’t make the government change tack. It’s a petition: they’re like pressing the button on pedestrian crossing posts. (Those are not connected to anything. They’re just there to give you the illusion of agency).


----------



## Gerry1time (Mar 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> Were the to be a tragic accident of some sort the conspiracy theories would be quite something to behold.



It’s be great if the conspiracy theories started, then MI5 issued a press release saying ‘yeah, we totally did it, she was clearly a nutter’.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 22, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Jose Mayrinho.


----------



## newbie (Mar 22, 2019)

it won't make the government change tack until places like Sunderland and Swindon, facing job losses in the thousands, muster more than a few hundred signatures. It might make a few individual MPs notice with interest that their majority is smaller than the number of voters in their constituency who want A50 revoked.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 22, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> they’re like pressing the button on pedestrian crossing posts. (*Those are not connected to anything. They’re just there to give you the illusion of agency*).


Bzzt. Wrong answer. Thanks for playing anyway.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 22, 2019)

2hats said:


> Bzzt. Wrong answer. Thanks for playing anyway.


That’s what They want you to think.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 22, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s what They want you to think.


They? Siemens Intelligent Traffic Systems division?


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 22, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s what They want you to think.


Some crossings are definitely connected up!


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 22, 2019)

2hats said:


> They? Siemens Intelligent Traffic Systems division?


That’s just a cover.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 22, 2019)

2hats said:


> Bzzt. Wrong answer. Thanks for playing anyway.



A 265 page manual.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 22, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> wont happen. everyone hates it and everyone hates her. ERG see voting her deal down as a route to no deal. remainers as a route to 2nd ref or soft brexit. labour sees it as route to general election.


Don't disagree, just if it weren't for that is a way through for them 

I'm feeling quite cheery today for some reason. Brexit cheer


----------



## 8ball (Mar 22, 2019)

Anyway, this extension for a couple of weeks - are the various loon groups still planning their tantrums and blockades etc. or are they climbing down a bit?

Wonder whether we’ll have more than 3 people left on Farage’s march by the time it reaches London.


----------



## eoin_k (Mar 22, 2019)

I imagine that many in the ERG would prefer either a soft brexit or article 50 to be revoked as outcomes to the prospect of voting for Mays deal, so long as they are left with clean hands. Plenty of political capital to be made with their base out of being the faction in parliament who didn't betray Brexit.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> Consituency offices aren't going to be burnt down if we don't Brexit.



I bet you go round telling kids' that Santa isn't real, too.


----------



## Cid (Mar 22, 2019)

Even if May tried to cling on post mv3, reckon support for second no confidence vote might be there. As I remember there’s no real limit on how often they’re called.


----------



## Supine (Mar 22, 2019)

Cid said:


> Even if May tried to cling on post mv3, reckon support for second no confidence vote might be there. As I remember there’s no real limit on how often they’re called.



Daily would work at the moment


----------



## teqniq (Mar 22, 2019)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> Were the to be a tragic accident of some sort the conspiracy theories would be quite something to behold.



I don't think anyone gives enough of a toss about May to bother making up any conspiracy theories.


----------



## treelover (Mar 22, 2019)

> Saturday’s march will once again allow *new and marginalised voices to be heard*. And when the dust settles, it’ll be the hundreds of thousands who took to the streets to fight for change who will be remembered.
> 
> It’s not too late to stop Brexit. Saturday’s march will force politicians to hear us | Lara Spirit



Really? its the march of the entitled, middle class revolt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

treelover said:


> Really, its the march of the entitled





treelover said:


> Really? its the march of the entitled, middle class revolt.


are you going to change it again?


----------



## treelover (Mar 22, 2019)

So what?

I've even added bold now!


----------



## 8ball (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> are you going to change it again?



I'm still smarting that "Gore-Tex Uprising" hasn't caught on in the way I hoped it would.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> I'm still smarting that "Gore-Tex Uprising" hasn't caught on in the way I hoped it would.


panini putsch etc


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

treelover said:


> So what?
> 
> I've even added bold now!


but none of your actual political analysis i note


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 22, 2019)

treelover said:


> Really? its the march of the entitled, middle class revolt.


Whatever socio-economic class they may belong to, the voices of those who oppose brexit have been marginalised by the politicians trying to do brexit. Hence May's appalling deal with its hard-brexit red lines. 

This has been the pattern ever since the referendum - for example, the reasoning has been presented repeatedly by May and others that a majority of those who voted for brexit want new immigration controls (which is very probably true), therefore there must be new immigration controls or brexit won't mean brexit. But immigration was not on the ballot paper, and the vote does not indicate a majority of people in favour of new immigration controls. In fact, given that 48  per cent voted in a way that explicitly ruled out new immigration controls, the vote almost certainly indicates a majority against them. Yet they march on still towards new immigration controls. This referendum is being used as cover for a bunch of vile things, and that needs calling out.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 22, 2019)

treelover said:


> Really? its the march of the entitled, middle class revolt.



Maybe some people from 78% entitled Lambeth and Hackney will show up.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 22, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> Maybe some people from 78% entitled Lambeth and Hackney will show up.


Or those 75% entitled under-25s.


----------



## chilango (Mar 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> I'm still smarting that "Gore-Tex Uprising" hasn't caught on in the way I hoped it would.



What's wrong with Gore-tex?


----------



## yield (Mar 22, 2019)

2hats said:


> Bzzt. Wrong answer. Thanks for playing anyway.


Does pressing the pedestrian crossing button actually do anything?
4 September 2013


> The short answer is - it depends. At a standalone pedestrian crossing, unconnected to a junction, the button will turn a traffic light red.
> 
> At a junction it is more complicated.


Also

Close-door buttons DO work in British lifts… but not in US elevators
2 November 2016


----------



## brogdale (Mar 22, 2019)

How can they tell?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

brogdale said:


> How can they tell?
> 
> View attachment 165272


may is repeating "does not compute does not compute" and steam is coming from her ears


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> but none of your actual political analysis i note



Ahhh c'mon when he's right he's right. Doesn't happen often.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Whatever socio-economic class they may belong to, the voices of those who oppose brexit have been marginalised by the politicians trying to do brexit. Hence May's appalling deal with its hard-brexit red lines.
> 
> This has been the pattern ever since the referendum - for example, the reasoning has been presented repeatedly by May and others that a majority of those who voted for brexit want new immigration controls (which is very probably true), therefore there must be new immigration controls or brexit won't mean brexit. But immigration was not on the ballot paper, and the vote does not indicate a majority of people in favour of new immigration controls. In fact, given that 48  per cent voted in a way that explicitly ruled out new immigration controls, the vote almost certainly indicates a majority against them. Yet they march on still towards new immigration controls. This referendum is being used as cover for a bunch of vile things, and that needs calling out.



To be fair, the Hostile Environment policy was brought in a few years before the referendum, and that's where the new immigration controls are, not in the Brexit that isn't going to happen. It makes me a little sad that some people in my union are now (rightly) raging about hostile environment, but didn't know anything about it or care before the referendum.

If anything the whole process has actually focused attention on the brutality of the Tory govts treatment of non-EU migrants for many years. And when this is all cancelled a lot of those marchers will declare victory and forget all about the Hostile Environment.


----------



## andysays (Mar 22, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Not sure about that, I can see Farage taking on the leadership of the Brexit Party, which already has 8 former UKIP MEPs onside, more than UKIP has now, I can see other former UKIP MEPs, that are currently sitting as independents coming across, and plenty of other former UKIP candidates offering to stand too.
> 
> They claim to have over £1m in donations so far, and I can see that rapidly increasing if we take part in the EU election. The £1m is equal to what the Labour party spent on the last EU election, whereas UKIP spent almost £3m.
> 
> I think their main problem will be people being confused between them & UKIP, thus splitting the leave protest vote.


The first part of this has now happened, according to the BBC...


----------



## 2hats (Mar 22, 2019)

yield said:


> Does pressing the pedestrian crossing button actually do anything?
> 4 September 2013


That's is correct - what it does is up to how the controller is programmed. The incorrect answer is that it simply does nothing.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 22, 2019)

andysays said:


> The first part of this has now happened, according to the BBC...



That doesn't surprise me at all.

Nigel Farage back as Brexit Party leader


----------



## grit (Mar 22, 2019)

Are we now honestly looking at the possibility of indicative votes with *seven* options


----------



## chilango (Mar 22, 2019)

Indicative votes?  That'll go well ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

grit said:


> Are we now honestly looking at the possibility of indicative votes with *seven* options


a film is envisaged about brexit, provisionally entitled 'the seventh deal'


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 22, 2019)

grit said:


> Are we now honestly looking at the possibility of indicative votes with *seven* options



If so, whichever are the two most diametrically opposed options will prove the most popular with parliament, with numbers such that a significant number of MP's must have voted for both of them.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> a film is envisaged about brexit, provisionally entitled 'the seventh deal'



Featuring Theresa May losing a high-stakes game of chess against a jar of sandwich spread.


----------



## chilango (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> a film is envisaged about brexit, provisionally entitled 'the seventh deal'



The indicative vote debate captured in cinematic form....


----------



## ska invita (Mar 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> The indicative vote debate captured in cinematic form....



Good punch line


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 22, 2019)

I'm definitely stealing this one


----------



## Crispy (Mar 22, 2019)

grit said:


> Are we now honestly looking at the possibility of indicative votes with *seven* options


paper ballot with all options at once, so no buggering about with lobbies, whipping etc.

MPs devise new voting system to identify Brexit Plan B


----------



## Cid (Mar 22, 2019)

It's getting weirder and weirder.

I'll give this to may; she's certainly good at finding ways to eke out her time in the top spot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

Cid said:


> It's getting weirder and weirder.
> 
> I'll give this to may; she's certainly good at finding ways to eke out her time in the top spot.


she has a team of top writers scripting all this for her, including people from 'the shield', 'the wire', 'borgen', line of duty, 'peaky blinders', 'baptiste', 'the bridge' and 'montalbano' - not to mention john le carre, who coordinates their activity


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> a film is envisaged about brexit, provisionally entitled 'the seventh deal'



I hope it’s in Swedish with subtitles.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I hope it’s in Swedish with subtitles.


it's going to be in gobbledegook, may's first language


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

You can get 10/3 with Paddy Power for May to resign or be removed in April which is good value - new customer offer is good too as you get £30 in free bets if you deposit and bet a tenner. 

Beware of Ladbrokes - they offer odds on what month May will be replaced as PM but they mean when a permanent PM is in place.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 22, 2019)

Cid said:


> It's getting weirder and weirder.
> 
> I'll give this to may; she's certainly good at finding ways to eke out her time in the top spot.



Got tips of Bryan Adams.

Sorry for the disgusting language.


----------



## grit (Mar 22, 2019)

Crispy said:


> paper ballot with all options at once,



Still feels like a complete and utter mess.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 22, 2019)

Crispy said:


> paper ballot with all options at once, so no buggering about with lobbies, whipping etc.
> 
> MPs devise new voting system to identify Brexit Plan B



Finally the House gets dragged into the 19th century.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 22, 2019)

paper better not mean secret tho. I want it all on record.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 22, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> paper better not mean secret tho. I want it all on record.



Good point, they are accountable.


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 22, 2019)

Why does it have to be 30 years for cabinet papers ?


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 22, 2019)

Crispy said:


> paper ballot with all options at once, so no buggering about with lobbies, whipping etc.
> 
> MPs devise new voting system to identify Brexit Plan B



And the new Brexit plan is... spunking cocks.


----------



## Cloo (Mar 22, 2019)

I’m swinging between hope about the fact that something seems to be giving, both on the EU and UK government side that might at least avoid No Deal and at best could open up means for revocation of A50, and fear we’re just going to slide into a ridiculous No Deal situation because everyone at the top is a shower of incompetent, squabbling twats.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> a film is envisaged about brexit, provisionally entitled 'the seventh deal'


The Magnificent Seven was rejected _very _early in the process.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 22, 2019)

Crispy said:


> paper ballot with all options at once, so no buggering about with lobbies, whipping etc.
> 
> MPs devise new voting system to identify Brexit Plan B


I'm most looking to Theresa May sat slumped and scowling on the front bench, playing with her phone.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 22, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> And the new Brexit plan is... spunking cocks.


Always was.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Always was.


Auld 'spunky' cox awaiting his time


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'm most looking to Theresa May sat slumped and scowling on the front bench, playing with her phone.


I'm most looking forward to furious backbenchers rending her limb from limb then turning their ire on auld lady leadsom


----------



## Wilf (Mar 22, 2019)

So, it's mv3 on Tuesday > fails > indicative votes on Wednesday?

The indicative votes thing is entirely sensible and might have been the way out Theresa May should have chosen 6 months ago. Same time, so used are they to being marched through the lobbies and told what to do, that the Hof Commons hasn't thought this through. What follows from option A getting x votes, option B getting y votes etc? Should there be some kind of single transferable vote? Or will be then back into the government taking the thing over again and bringing their own motions following the indicative votes? Basically, they haven't got the instincts for working this stuff out for themselves.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 22, 2019)

They probably will not get a majority for anything.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 22, 2019)

It could be the model for a whole new way of governing by consensus and compromise!

*hnk of barely suppressed laughter*


----------



## Wilf (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Auld 'spunky' cox awaiting his time


Auld spunky isn't usually very good at delays.

Groan.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, it's mv3 on Tuesday > fails > indicative votes on Wednesday?
> 
> The indicative votes thing is entirely sensible and might have been the way out Theresa May should have chosen 6 months ago. Same time, so used are they to being marched through the lobbies and told what to do, that the Hof Commons hasn't thought this through. What follows from option A getting x votes, option B getting y votes etc? Should there be some kind of single transferable vote? Or will be then back into the government taking the thing over again and bringing their own motions following the indicative votes? Basically, they haven't got the instincts for working this stuff out for themselves.



I put bet on that May would either resign or be removed in April and that's a whole ten days away so I hope not. Didn't the news say they didn't know what day MV3 would be yet?


----------



## Cid (Mar 22, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I put bet on that May would either resign or be removed in April and that's a whole ten days away so I hope not. Didn't the news say they didn't know what day MV3 would be yet?



My guess is if she's out, she's out before April... April implies she's survived MV3. Which is probably why they gave you good odds.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 22, 2019)

Crispy said:


> It could be the model for a whole new way of governing by consensus and compromise!
> 
> *hnk of barely suppressed laughter*


"Right, so what have you lot learned from Brexit?"
- oh, everything's going to be different in the future, jazz hands and everything. I've even paid my expenses back.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

Cid said:


> My guess is if she's out, she's out before April... April implies she's survived MV3. Which is probably why they gave you good odds.



Nah that was favourite - 10/3. I can still get 15/2 for March...


----------



## Cid (Mar 22, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, it's mv3 on Tuesday > fails > indicative votes on Wednesday?
> 
> The indicative votes thing is entirely sensible and might have been the way out Theresa May should have chosen 6 months ago. Same time, so used are they to being marched through the lobbies and told what to do, that the Hof Commons hasn't thought this through. What follows from option A getting x votes, option B getting y votes etc? Should there be some kind of single transferable vote? Or will be then back into the government taking the thing over again and bringing their own motions following the indicative votes? Basically, they haven't got the instincts for working this stuff out for themselves.



I suppose we'll have to wait and see how they structure it... But it's a bit laughable really. I mean coming up with a fairly complex system of indicative votes over an extended fucking weekend?


----------



## Cid (Mar 22, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Nah that was favourite - 10/3. I can still get 15/2 for March...



Hmm... That might be worth a tenner. But I often think about these things then remember that nah, not a great idea.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 22, 2019)

Cid said:


> My guess is if she's out, she's out before April... April implies she's survived MV3. Which is probably why they gave you good odds.


Yeah, whatever the 'next step' is after the failure of mv3, it's going to be different - different as an actual deal and different to May just ploughing on process-wise.  It makes no sense to have her leading that and her sense of personal pride might finally kick in.  But who's to say?  Somebody will probably have to physically restrain her getting on a flight to the next EU Summit.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

Cid said:


> Hmm... That might be worth a tenner. But I often think about these things then remember that nah, not a great idea.



Already laid a tenner for April on the basis that she wouldn't go for MV3 until later in the week, she won't resign and she'll have to be removed but I will be GUTTED if she's removed on the 29th 

Some of us are trying to profit from Brexit here!


----------



## elbows (Mar 22, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Somebody will probably have to physically restrain her getting on a flight to the next EU Summit.



A new career debugging the 373 Max 8 awaits RoboClot.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Mar 22, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I put bet on that May would either resign or be removed in April and that's a whole ten days away so I hope not. Didn't the news say they didn't know what day MV3 would be yet?


Yes, I think the uncertainty is because they have to vote on the new timetable first - presumably Monday or Tuesday, and then debate MV3 amendments before actual MV3 vote? Has Bercow signalled that the changes mean his objections to MV3 are lifted?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Yes, I think the uncertainty is because they have to vote on the new timetable first - presumably Monday or Tuesday, and then debate MV3 amendments before actual MV3 vote? Has Bercow signalled that the changes mean his objections to MV3 are lifted?



That sounds much better. Hopefully Bercow fucks about a bit. That could take up a whole week and once we're past the 29th I'm in!


----------



## Wilf (Mar 22, 2019)

Cid said:


> I suppose we'll have to wait and see how they structure it... But it's a bit laughable really. I mean coming up with a fairly complex system of indicative votes over an extended fucking weekend?


I'm not going to argue on the grounds of some kind of abstract national interest - there's no such thing, just classes and the various structures of capital. Same time, from the perspective of government, the very people who are charged with avoiding the chaos, panic and lost jobs that are in the air, there really were some obvious paths to go down.  May didn't speak to anyone on the other benches for 2 years or more and lost the opportunity to do anything other than keep squawking 'my deal, my deal'. This is all an indictment of the parliamentary and party systems, that they couldn't even work out a way to put something together. *They *too don't seem to have a sense of the national interest.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

Oh god this doesn't sound very good :/ 

"Tuesday now seems the likely date for the next attempt to hold a "meaningful vote" to obtain MPs' approval of Theresa May's Brexit deal, in the hope of turning round the two huge defeats it suffered when she tried in January and early March.

This might entail a vote to over-ride the Speaker's objections, if the deal is not deemed "substantially different" to the one already rejected twice by MPs - so the PM would need a decent prospect of mustering a Commons majority to proceed, and might abandon the vote at short notice."

Week ahead in Parliament


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Oh god this doesn't sound very good :/
> 
> "Tuesday now seems the likely date for the next attempt to hold a "meaningful vote" to obtain MPs' approval of Theresa May's Brexit deal, in the hope of turning round the two huge defeats it suffered when she tried in January and early March.
> 
> ...


I don't think she'll get her evil way being as she's fucked everyone off


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think she'll get her evil way being as she's fucked everyone off



Neither do I but I need her to make it to April now!


----------



## editor (Mar 22, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Neither do I but I need her to make it to April now!


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Mar 22, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Already laid a tenner for April on the basis that she wouldn't go for MV3 until later in the week, she won't resign and she'll have to be removed but I will be GUTTED if she's removed on the 29th
> 
> Some of us are trying to profit from Brexit here!



Disaster Capitalist


----------



## elbows (Mar 22, 2019)

Even the fucking Sun have a video on youtube in the last hour titled 'The next Brexit PM: Who takes over if May gets ousted?'


----------



## Cid (Mar 22, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'm not going to argue on the grounds of some kind of abstract national interest - there's no such thing, just classes and the various structures of capital. Same time, from the perspective of government, the very people who are charged with avoiding the chaos, panic and lost jobs that are in the air, there really were some obvious paths to go down.  May didn't speak to anyone on the other benches for 2 years or more and lost the opportunity to do anything other than keep squawking 'my deal, my deal'. This is all an indictment of the parliamentary and party systems, that they couldn't even work out a way to put something together. *They *too don't seem to have a sense of the national interest.



Indeed... The last couple of years have been charaterised by all out war (I mean that is literally the title of Tim Shipman's book on Brexit). I understand somewhat in the run up to the 2017 election. But after that? It doesn't make sense even by their own standards.

I quite enjoyed Shipman's book(s) incidentally. Obviously not for insight on how things should be done, or his politics. But interesting as a kind of bizarre car crash of a soap opera type thing.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 22, 2019)

Surely there must be a Downfall version by now?


----------



## Patteran (Mar 22, 2019)

The Brexit blockade discussed earlier wasn't a complete fabrication - ten vehicles, including a couple of wagons, managed to disrupt the A30.



Edited to add - not sure the photo attached to that tweet is from the event - seen a video which featured cars but no wagons.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Surely there must be a Downfall version by now?



There's a few, with Hitler representing either the EU, Rees-Mogg or Johnson. They don't make a great deal of sense. Haven't seen one for May.


----------



## chilango (Mar 22, 2019)

Does the extension on A50 mean I'm going to have to wait til April before Boris Johnson sends the cheques he promised out?

I was kinda banking on that money....


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 22, 2019)

Patteran said:


> The Brexit blockade discussed earlier wasn't a complete fabrication - ten vehicles, including a couple of wagons, managed to disrupt the A30.
> 
> 
> 
> Edited to add - not sure the photo attached to that tweet is from the event - seen a video which featured cars but no wagons.




That'll show the government. Somehow


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> Does the extension on A50 mean I'm going to have to wait til April before Boris Johnson sends the cheques he promised out?
> 
> I was kinda banking on that money....



Not to be unkind mate but best not to budget around Boris promises.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 22, 2019)

Patteran said:


> The Brexit blockade discussed earlier wasn't a complete fabrication - ten vehicles, including a couple of wagons, managed to disrupt the A30.
> 
> 
> 
> Edited to add - not sure the photo attached to that tweet is from the event - seen a video which featured cars but no wagons.




Everyone should read this complete report, it's funny as fuck - Just Watching: "Did we invoke A30 as well?". 



> Only about 10 vehicles turned up at the appointed time of 3.30, three of which were police cars. The vehicles, three of which have been decorated in banners and flags, left the service station at Plusha at about 3.30pm.
> 
> However the protest did get under way and soon led to seven-mile tailbacks. But Devon and Cornwall Police were soon seen to pull the vehicles involved in the action near Bodmin. The vehicles were pulled up in a layby on the side of the road.
> 
> Brexit A30 protest brings backlash of anger and amusing insults


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 22, 2019)

editor said:


> View attachment 165301



ha ha - me and some mates also did an imaginary casting of carry on brexit. 

We had charles hawtrey as Ress Mogg and Kenneth Williams as Barnier. 
Hattie Jaques as Arlene Foster
Babs Windsor as Nicola Sturgeon - with terrible scots accent.


----------



## Cid (Mar 22, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Everyone should read this complete report, it's funny as fuck





> organiser Ian Grindod said: “It was never going to be a massive event anyway.”





> "couldn't organise a traffic jam on the A30 on a Friday night."


----------



## Patteran (Mar 22, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> That'll show the government. Somehow



Oil refinery blockades of 2000 showed just how effective hauliers protests can be - I was interested to see whether or not the associated twitter account had any genuine traction. Three lane go-slow on the M6, too.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 22, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Oil refinery blockades of 2000 showed just how effective hauliers protests can be



That whole thing was a scam created by the oil companies to blackmail the government into getting north sea oil for free.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 22, 2019)

PM 'may cancel third meaningful vote'


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 22, 2019)

ska invita said:


> PM 'may cancel third meaningful vote'



Same reason I was so keen to cancel my own funeral.


----------



## Supine (Mar 22, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Same reason I was so keen to cancel my on funeral.



1st 2nd and 3rd


----------



## Patteran (Mar 22, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> That whole thing was a scam created by the oil companies to blackmail the government into getting north sea oil for free.



I thought it was instigated by a Tory farmer from North Wales blocking a Cheshire refinery with tractors. Irrespective, it only worked because of drivers. Even reactionary direct action gets the goods - which is why it's worth keeping an eye on the balance of forces at play here. A strong turnout of trucks this evening would have been a marker - it hasn't materialised.


----------



## binka (Mar 22, 2019)

Patteran said:


> I thought it was instigated by a Tory farmer from North Wales blocking a Cheshire refinery with tractors. Irrespective, it only worked because of drivers. Even reactionary direct action gets the goods - which is why it's worth keeping an eye on the balance of forces at play here. A strong turnout of trucks this evening would have been a marker - it hasn't materialised.


I'm struggling to think of reasons why any hauliers would be in favour of any sort of Brexit.


----------



## andysays (Mar 22, 2019)

Well, this *is* a surprise...

Brexit: Vote on Theresa May's deal may not happen next week


> Theresa May has told MPs that a third vote on her Brexit deal may not take place next week "if it appears there is not sufficient support".





> It comes after European Council President Donald Tusk said Brexit's fate was "in Britain's hands". EU leaders have agreed to delay the departure date by at least two weeks. If MPs approve the PM's deal next week, Brexit would be delayed from 29 March until 22 May. Otherwise the UK has until 12 April to propose a new plan.





> In a letter to all MPs on Friday evening, Mrs May said: "If it appears that there is not sufficient support to bring the deal back next week, or the House (of Commons) rejects it again, we can ask for another extension before 12 April - but that will involve holding European Parliament elections."


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 22, 2019)

binka said:


> I'm struggling to think of reasons why any hauliers would be in favour of any sort of Brexit.



Foreign drivers innit? Coming over here with their tanks full of cheap continental fuel and undercutting our own brave hauliers.


----------



## Patteran (Mar 22, 2019)

binka said:


> I'm struggling to think of reasons why any hauliers would be in favour of any sort of Brexit.



Road Haulage Association have been consistent in the pressure they've applied to the government post-referendum to get a deal. They were among the first business groups to break the government's No Deal preparation gagging orders to criticise (lack of) customs arrangements. That's why I was interested in this twitter account claiming to represent drivers - they're getting hammered already by the changes, by the licence lottery. I'm still none the wiser about the account - whether it's a driver, an Eddie Stobbart fan with a yellow vest & a tie, or a Leave Eu astroturfer.


----------



## binka (Mar 22, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Foreign drivers innit? Coming over here with their tanks full of cheap continental fuel and undercutting our own brave hauliers.


Yeah I thought someone might say that but I'm not really sure how much of an issue it is. We get half a dozen hauliers a day into ours and the only ones who aren't British are the ones coming direct from Turkey about once every 2 months. Hold ups at borders are a significantly bigger issue


----------



## binka (Mar 22, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Road Haulage Association have been consistent in the pressure they've applied to the government post-referendum to get a deal. They were among the first business groups to break the government's No Deal preparation gagging orders to criticise (lack of) customs arrangements. That's why I was interested in this twitter account claiming to represent drivers - they're getting hammered already by the changes, by the licence lottery. I'm still none the wiser about the account - whether it's a driver, an Eddie Stobbart fan with a yellow vest & a tie, or a Leave Eu astroturfer.


Yeah definitely sounds like bullshit to me. Might get a few individual drivers in favour (like my brother in law) but no way any of the bosses would support it


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 23, 2019)

andysays said:


> Well, this *is* a surprise...
> 
> Brexit: Vote on Theresa May's deal may not happen next week



Buying time. Knew she would! Thanks Treesa that's 50 quid in the bag for me.


----------



## Septimus Rufiji (Mar 23, 2019)

"jesus christ, it's like an episode of don't tell the bride"


----------



## Wookey (Mar 23, 2019)

Septimus Rufiji said:


> "jesus christ, it's like an episode of don't tell the bride"




He's achieving sublime now.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 23, 2019)

'no one wants the fucking jet ski'.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 23, 2019)

I think there might be an underestimation of May. To climb the greasy pole and hold sway in a minority govt and still be not so unpopular as you would reasonably expect, there's a danger of echo chambers and such making her out to be an insane robot (if you can have such a thing). I think she holds more loyalty cards and filiality among the party faithful than we might expect. Will the parliamentary party and their voters fall in line?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 23, 2019)

Humberto said:


> I think there might be an underestimation of May. To climb the greasy pole and hold sway in a minority govt and still be not so unpopular as you would reasonably expect, there's a danger of echo chambers and such making her out to be an insane robot (if you can have such a thing). I think she holds more loyalty cards and filiality among the party faithful than we might expect. Will the parliamentary party and their voters fall in line?



Think she's used up all the loyalty cards and in any case Tories don't do loyalty when they need a human sacrifice.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 23, 2019)

Wilf said:


> What follows from option A getting x votes, option B getting y votes etc? Should there be some kind of single transferable vote? Or will be then back into the government taking the thing over again and bringing their own motions following the indicative votes? Basically, they haven't got the instincts for working this stuff out for themselves.


If they do the indicative votes as they did for HoL reform (where is failed to produce a result), its a series of individual votes. So an MP can vote for any, or all, options but can't, as an individual, show a preference for C over A over B etc.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 23, 2019)

Secret Cabinet Office document reveals chaotic planning for no-deal Brexit

More evidence that no deal would be a fucking shitshow. Question is, who leaked it? Could it be an embattled prime minister whose only hope lies with scaremongering about no deal in order to bully people into voting for her piece of shit deal?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 23, 2019)

Humberto said:


> I think there might be an underestimation of May. To climb the greasy pole and hold sway in a minority govt and still be not so unpopular as you would reasonably expect, there's a danger of echo chambers and such making her out to be an insane robot (if you can have such a thing). I think she holds more loyalty cards and filiality among the party faithful than we might expect. Will the parliamentary party and their voters fall in line?



She's still in the job because nobody else wants it, and for that reason alone.


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2019)

IMHO she's best left in "power" mumbling to herself in the corner rather than letting any of the others take over ...


----------



## Patteran (Mar 23, 2019)

binka said:


> Yeah definitely sounds like bullshit to me. Might get a few individual drivers in favour (like my brother in law) but no way any of the bosses would support it



With most drivers these days operating rented, shared &/or company vehicles - vehicles that are continually tracked & monitored, there's no way they'd get away with politicised friday afternoon freelancing without management/owner collaboration. Oddly, there was a piece by FBPE high priest AC Grayling in the New European a couple of weeks ago, impotently demanding that the RHA set up blockades to protest _against_ Brexit. Enduring modern myth of lorry drivers still apparently resonant across the political spectrum.


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2019)

If any more had turned up yesterday, I bet the Excise would have been there in force


----------



## gosub (Mar 23, 2019)

As we get the final bit of flailing could they not just move Brexit one more time...to 31/5/19. 


BREXIT, END OF MAY! is too good a headline to be squandered.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 23, 2019)

binka said:


> I'm struggling to think of reasons why any hauliers would be in favour of any sort of Brexit.


People support Brexit not just because of their own advantage or lack of it.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 23, 2019)

Brexit ‘to blame’ for rising hate speech in Scotland

"Yesterday, SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford was harassed by Brexit supporters who shouted abuse at him as he walked down the street in central London. Mr Blackford and fellow SNP MP Stephen Gethins were leaving a meeting with Cabinet Office minister David Lidington in Whitehall when a group of around a dozen people followed, shouting “_traitor to England_” and “leave means leave”."


----------



## LDC (Mar 23, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Brexit ‘to blame’ for rising hate speech in Scotland
> 
> "Yesterday, SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford was harassed by Brexit supporters who shouted abuse at him as he walked down the street in central London. Mr Blackford and fellow SNP MP Stephen Gethins were leaving a meeting with Cabinet Office minister David Lidington in Whitehall when a group of around a dozen people followed, shouting “_traitor to England_” and “leave means leave”."



These shouts of 'traitor' at people really send shivers down my spine.


----------



## killer b (Mar 23, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> She's still in the job because nobody else wants it, and for that reason alone.


There's loads of other people who want the job, but none of them have enough support to take it off her.


----------



## gosub (Mar 23, 2019)

binka said:


> I'm struggling to think of reasons why any hauliers would be in favour of any sort of Brexit.



Lorries with tanks full of diesel bought at lower tax rate on the continent picking up UK domestic loads once they have dropped off their origianal one must be unwanted competition


----------



## Poi E (Mar 23, 2019)

.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 23, 2019)

MP's getting barracked. Didums.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 23, 2019)

Poi E said:


> shouting “_traitor to England_”


----------



## binka (Mar 23, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Road Haulage Association have been consistent in the pressure they've applied to the government post-referendum to get a deal. They were among the first business groups to break the government's No Deal preparation gagging orders to criticise (lack of) customs arrangements. That's why I was interested in this twitter account claiming to represent drivers - they're getting hammered already by the changes, by the licence lottery. I'm still none the wiser about the account - whether it's a driver, an Eddie Stobbart fan with a yellow vest & a tie, or a Leave Eu astroturfer.


This is one of them 
Brexit demo leader slammed over immigration posts


----------



## LDC (Mar 23, 2019)

TopCat said:


> MP's getting barracked. Didums.



Yeah totally, there's just something about the 'traitor' shout that makes me feel like any of us could be hearing that as we're hung before a baying mob of fascists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah totally, there's just something about the 'traitor' shout that makes me feel like any of us could be hearing that as we're hung before a baying mob of fascists.


much better to be hanged after a baying mob of fascists


----------



## TopCat (Mar 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah totally, there's just something about the 'traitor' shout that makes me feel like any of us could be hearing that as we're hung before a baying mob of fascists.


Keep calm and carry on arguing. 
Anyway, the marchers today will be giving it large with traitor jibes. It's usually the enraged middle class who usher in the Mussolini types. You know, like Wookey


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Keep calm and carry on arguing.
> Anyway, the marchers today will be giving it large with traitor jibes. It's usually the enraged middle class who usher in the Mussolini types. You know, like Wookey


mussolini was intelligent and very well read. unlike Wookey


----------



## Patteran (Mar 23, 2019)

TopCat said:


> People support Brexit not just because of their own advantage or lack of it.



Seems to be a real middle class blind spot - those who express a willingness to pay more tax to fund state provision seem absolutely incapable of understanding that other people would also be prepared to take a financial hit for their politics.


----------



## chilango (Mar 23, 2019)

I do think Brexit appears to have brought out a sort of collective hysteria amongst a certain type of liberal.

I've friends who are generally sensible and switched on losing their heads over this in absolute panic. To the point that any, and every, other political consideration is completely subordinate to "getting a people's vote".


----------



## LDC (Mar 23, 2019)

chilango said:


> I do think Brexit appears to have brought out a sort of collective hysteria amongst a certain type of liberal.
> 
> I've friends who are generally sensible and switched on losing their heads over this in absolute panic. To the point that any, and every, other political consideration is completely subordinate to "getting a people's vote".



Totally. I've lost a bit of respect for a fair few number of people I know who seem to be one step away from complete panic over this. People talking about not going to Europe this year in case they're not allowed back in, all sorts of fucking nonsense.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Mar 23, 2019)

Is Chuka DJing at the Festival of Liberal Outrage today? Maybe everyone there could blow coke up his arse while he tries to do a rewind.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

chilango said:


> I do think Brexit appears to have brought out a sort of collective hysteria amongst a certain type of liberal.
> 
> I've friends who are generally sensible and switched on losing their heads over this in absolute panic. To the point that any, and every, other political consideration is completely subordinate to "getting a people's vote".


it's the lunacy which cannot see that a new people's vote might end the same way as the last one


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Totally. I've lost a bit of respect for a fair few number of people I know who seem to be one step away from complete panic over this. People talking about not going to Europe this year in case they're not allowed back in, all sorts of fucking nonsense.


i am looking forward to going to europe and will be only too pleased if i'm am not allowed back in


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's the lunacy which cannot see that a new people's vote might end the same way as the last one


would that not really be an end of days situation.So glad to hear that the Labour Party's focus is to be elsewhere today i.e on local elections not on this irrelevant posturing in the capital.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 23, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Seems to be a real middle class blind spot - those who express a willingness to pay more tax to fund state provision seem absolutely incapable of understanding that other people would also be prepared to take a financial hit for their politics.


Only the middle class can be altruistic.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's the lunacy which cannot see that a new people's vote might end the same way as the last one


This scares me. No really. If we get another vote and Leave win, enough of this types will be calling for the end of working class voting rights and demanding a strong leader to put us back in our place.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 23, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> would that not really be an end of days situation.So glad to hear that the Labour Party's focus is to be elsewhere today i.e on local elections not on this irrelevant posturing in the capital.


Have we got local elections coming? I have heard zilch.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 23, 2019)

Local elections here in Woking on May 2nd


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 23, 2019)

Good to see Chessum's british chauvinist public school leftism paying off.

Fucking vile.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Have we got local elections coming? I have heard zilch.


Depends where you dwell...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

TopCat said:


> This scares me. No really. If we get another vote and Leave win, enough of this types will be calling for the end of working class voting rights and demanding a strong leader to put us back in our place.


lots of people are demanding a strong leader but all that's on offer is weak and wobbly


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 23, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Have we got local elections coming? I have heard zilch.



depends where you are.  some places (including london boroughs) elect the whole council once every 4 years and this isn't london's year.  

some places you get 1/3 of the council up for election each year (so a local election 3 years out of 4 - and if there's still a county council them in the 4th year - this either makes for a fairly dull set up, or in some cases means a marginal council can change hands almost every year)

most of england and n ireland has something - either whole council or 1/3 - more here


----------



## Libertad (Mar 23, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Everyone should read this complete report, it's funny as fuck - Just Watching: "Did we invoke A30 as well?".





> The action was called by campaigners angry that the UK's departure from the EU has been postponed. The date to leave had been March 29 for the past two years but is now likely to be postponed until at least May 22, with *Prim Minister* Theresa May saying she will not let it happen later than June 30.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 23, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Seems to be a real middle class blind spot - those who express a willingness to pay more tax to fund state provision seem absolutely incapable of understanding that other people would also be prepared to take a financial hit for their politics.



If you look at the vote breakdown - boring, I know, but the devil is in the detail - the people right at the bottom economically actually voted majority remain in the referendum. It's among those a little above them where leave gains serious traction.

I would suggest there is a fundamental difference between a politics that says that those like me should pay more so that those worse off than me can do better and one that says that we should all take a hit for my politics, including those worse off than me.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 23, 2019)

DE - that is the entirety of the bottom - so obv including the 'people right at the bottom' voted 64% to leave. The exact same figure as C2. The single group with a majority for remain was the very top AB group. (This is from Ashcroft's thing - others since have backed the general picture up).


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 23, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If you look at the vote breakdown - boring, I know, but the devil is in the detail - the people right at the bottom economically actually voted majority remain in the referendum. It's among those a little above them where leave gains serious traction.



I imagine the lowest incomes may correlate with age to some extent - people generally earn more as they get older through career progression or accumulated pay rises. So a remain majority in this economic category may just be an indicator of that. Age is more relevant than class in the vote breakdown, nostalgia and resistance to change.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 23, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> I imagine the lowest incomes may correlate with age to some extent - people generally earn more as they get older through career progression or accumulated pay rises. So a remain majority in this economic category may just be an indicator of that. Age is more relevant than class in the vote breakdown, nostalgia and resistance to change.


There was no such majority in this economic category though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If you look at the vote breakdown - boring, I know, but the devil is in the detail - the people right at the bottom economically actually voted majority remain in the referendum. It's among those a little above them where leave gains serious traction.


are you sure you're looking at the right detail?


----------



## andysays (Mar 23, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> ...
> I would suggest there is a fundamental difference between a politics that says that those like me should pay more so that those worse off than me can do better and *one that says that we should all take a hit for my politics, including those worse off than me*.


Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious here, but who/what are you referring to?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> are you sure you're looking at the right detail?



I have a vague feeling (although I can't easily find a definitive answer) it might depend whether you're using the broadish ABC1 / C2 / DE categories or splitting income in to 10 bands - lowest 10% of incomes, next 10% and so on.

And does ABC etc reflect 'social class' or current income?  Incomes will be low while someone is a student, and will usually be lower once you've retired - not sure how these are reflected.  Broadly speaking, you can usually prove whatever you want if you choose the right set of statistics.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 23, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> She's still in the job because nobody else wants it, and for that reason alone.



She won that no confidence vote in December. No-deal types eager to get rid if I recall.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 23, 2019)

_Rally hosts Mariella Frostrup and Richard Bacon_...  Beyond fucking parody.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 23, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> _Rally hosts Mariella Frostrup and Richard Bacon_...  Beyond fucking parody.


It's certainly up there with Kissinger's Nobel Peace Prize.


----------



## killer b (Mar 23, 2019)

I've been to more than one march that was addressed by George Galloway. Frostrup doesn't seem that bad on reflection.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> I've been to more than one march that was addressed by George Galloway. Frostrup doesn't seem that bad on reflection.


It's not that she's bad, it's that she represents what the _real people_ of the UK are like (as opposed to the anti-people who voted for brexit). A well heeled guardian agony aunt.


----------



## Celyn (Mar 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah totally, there's just something about the 'traitor' shout that makes me feel like any of us could be hearing that as we're hung before a baying mob of fascists.


They're probably not clever enough to tie a noose if they're calling non-English people "traitor to England".


----------



## Celyn (Mar 23, 2019)

Anyway, we might find that the UK doesn't make rope and only imports it from the EU. (Not a serious suggestion, btw)


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Anyway, we might find that the UK doesn't make rope and only imports it from the EU. (Not a serious suggestion, btw)


it's ok, i've seen rope made in yorkshire


----------



## Wilf (Mar 23, 2019)

The revoke petition is p=up to 4.3 million now, might well get up to 6 m or so in the next few days, particularly after today's march? This was obviously an easy petition to organise as all the remain networks exist to promote it and there's been massive publicity to hype things up over the last week. Still, pretty impressive numbers. Same time, when leave becomes most imperilled, perhaps when MPs llok to be drifting towards Norway/2.0 or summat, leave could probably mobilise similar numbers on a petition. 

I'd don't give a shit about the petitions personally and don't see Brexit as the key issue in real politics anyway. Suppose though it does indicate the numbers on either side with genuine, strong feeling, ready to be aggrieved etc. My guess though is there's a good 20 million or so adults in the middle who just feel gloomy about it, in or out. Defeated, one way or another, but pessimistic. Brexit will come and go, but things will remain the same. Echoes of Mark Fisher's capitalist realism.


----------



## killer b (Mar 23, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> It's not that she's bad, it's that she represents what the _real people_ of the UK are like (as opposed to the anti-people who voted for brexit). A well heeled guardian agony aunt.


Oh I know. I've just seen a lot of pretty graceless criticism of today's march by people who've spent their political lives marching alongside the SWP though. Demos are a middle class affair in general IME.

Ive also been to demos addressed by those earthy types Bianca Jagger, Harold Pinter, the bishop of bath & wells, etc etc. Bacon and Frostrup would have been welcome on the platform in 2003 if Twitter had existed then...


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 23, 2019)

Hosts though, _hosts_. Not speakers as part of an attempt at a establishing the basis for a broad coalition - as on 2003 and related adventures. But _hosts_. Hosts on a demo. Like a dinner party reality-tv show.


----------



## killer b (Mar 23, 2019)

Ok that is quite weird.


----------



## rekil (Mar 23, 2019)

In strict accordance with multitudinous positionism and inspired by an EU militant's searing take on a Chumbawumba classic, Barry Mainwaring just signed the petition. 

 



Spoiler


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Hosts though, _hosts_. Not speakers as part of an attempt at a establishing the basis for a broad coalition - as on 2003 and related adventures. But _hosts_. Hosts on a demo. Like a dinner party reality-tv show.


scurrying round after the marchers to check their glasses are full and they've each had a vol au vent


----------



## newbie (Mar 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> I've been to more than one march that was addressed by George Galloway. Frostrup doesn't seem that bad on reflection.


he may be a demagogue but he's a much better speaker, she's just dull.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

newbie said:


> he may be a demagogue but he's a much better speaker, she's just dull.


unless you get her onto the subject of films when she really comes alive


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> I've been to more than one march that was addressed by George Galloway. Frostrup doesn't seem that bad on reflection.


i've probably been to a dozen marches which have been addressed by galloway but i wouldn't know as i never hang about to be told why i've just done what i've done


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 23, 2019)

Wilf said:


> The revoke petition is p=up to 4.3 million now, might well get up to 6 m or so in the next few days, particularly after today's march? This was obviously an easy petition to organise as all the remain networks exist to promote it and there's been massive publicity to hype things up over the last week. Still, pretty impressive numbers. Same time, when leave becomes most imperilled, perhaps when MPs look to be drifting towards Norway/2.0 or summat, leave could probably mobilise similar numbers on a petition.



my feeling is that the numbers of people on the leave side who feel strongly enough to actually do something about it (even signing a petition) has been overstated - to an extent deliberately, alongside warnings of widespread civil unrest. 
They are very noisy and angry but relatively small in number - attempts to organize petitions, demos or long walks have not been very well supported in terms of numbers and there does not seem to much in the way of organisation at grass roots level - regular meetings, networks, stalls and so on. It may be that a lot of the angriest brexiteers are actually quite  socially isolated people - connecting with others  only via social media bubbles. 
I think you are right the majority of people just want the whole thing to go away - so there could actually be people who are think that we should "leave already ffs" and also agree that we should  "just call the whole thing off" .


----------



## newbie (Mar 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> unless you get her onto the subject of films when she really comes alive


really?  the radio 4 in the background of your life is clearly better than the one I get where she drones on some subject or other that I don't listen to.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

newbie said:


> really?  the radio 4 in the background of your life is clearly better than the one I get where she drones on some subject or other that I don't listen to.


god but she drones on on the radio, but if you're fortunate enough to catch her at one of the soirees she hosts, once she's a glass or two of wine down her she is both knowledgeable and vastly entertaining.


----------



## chilango (Mar 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i've probably been to a dozen marches which have been addressed by galloway but i wouldn't know as i never hang about to be told why i've just done what i've done



A good demo has long departed from the script by the time the speeches should've been happening.

Other demos the speeches were a good opportunity for the pub before getting the coach


----------



## newbie (Mar 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> god but she drones on on the radio, but if you're fortunate enough to catch her at one of the soirees she hosts, once she's a glass or two of wine down her she is both knowledgeable and vastly entertaining.


I don't move in those circles.


----------



## chilango (Mar 23, 2019)

The shame of it is, a million people on the streets could win pretty much anything if they "properly went for it", but that never happens in these cases here


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 23, 2019)

Lovely and telling, this "People's Vote" name, innit. Making those who voted leave not-people. 

How _progressive._


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

newbie said:


> I don't move in those circles.


see if you can catch her at the end of today's little do and butter her up


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Lovely and telling, this "People's Vote" name, innit. Making those who voted leave not-people.
> 
> How _progressive._


not really. making the people who didn't vote not people.


----------



## killer b (Mar 23, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Lovely and telling, this "People's Vote" name, innit. Making those who voted leave not-people.
> 
> How _progressive._


That's a bit of a stretch. The name was more about trying to give the campaign a veneer of radicalism and ground-up mass support - it's no more exclusive than peoples assemblies, the peoples history museum, etc etc. Centrists stealing socialists clothes.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 23, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Lovely and telling, this "People's Vote" name, innit. Making those who voted leave not-people.
> 
> How _progressive._



'the people' is an abstraction deployed by social chauvinists (which can include left wing socialists and centrists, not communists though) and far rightists of all types. has fuck all to do with anti-progressivism or anti-democratism, it's very much compatible with democracy.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 23, 2019)

I wasn't being entirely serious


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 23, 2019)

Really #makesonethink


----------



## MrCurry (Mar 23, 2019)

Some great banners on display in the London “put it to the people” march.  I liked “if I could turn back time I’d take back all the votes that hurt EU” 
And
“Just call me Revokey McVote Face”


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

S☼I said:


> View attachment 165407
> 
> Really #makesonethink


yeh makes me think wtf is he on?


----------



## killer b (Mar 23, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> “if I could turn back time I’d take back all the votes that hurt EU”


No deal Brexit now please.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2019)

S☼I said:


> View attachment 165407
> 
> Really #makesonethink


What am I seeing here that is so amazing?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

editor said:


> What am I seeing here that is so amazing?


utter confusion about what's going on, that this is 'british left politics'


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 23, 2019)

editor said:


> What am I seeing here that is so amazing?


No idea. Presumably the person who tweeted it is easily thrilled.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2019)

Dontcha just wish you were there?


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 23, 2019)

The bloody signs are always the worst thing about these marches.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 23, 2019)

from larry the cat on tweeter


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Dontcha just wish you were there?
> 
> View attachment 165409


just looking for an 'i'm with stupid' t-shirt there


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> The bloody signs are always the worst thing about these marches.


no the bloody speeches are always the worst thing about these marches


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2019)

Here yer go...


----------



## pug (Mar 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Dontcha just wish you were there?
> 
> View attachment 165409



with a pump action shotgun


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Dontcha just wish you were there?
> 
> View attachment 165409


BURN THE BANNERS!


----------



## killer b (Mar 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Here yer go...
> 
> View attachment 165410


Worked hard on those banners


----------



## Favelado (Mar 23, 2019)

Just so catchy.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2019)

Leslie's nappy filler face


----------



## chilango (Mar 23, 2019)

I'm hearing rumours that the front part has been kettled and mounted police are trying to disperse crowds towards the rear who are currently trying get into Downing Street.








Oh wait. No, I'm not hearing anything if the sort. Funny that.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2019)

chilango said:


> I'm hearing rumours that the front part has been kettled and mounted police are trying to disperse crowds towards the rear who are currently trying get into Downing Street.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look out for the billiard balls filled with paint/acid/anti matter!


----------



## Patteran (Mar 23, 2019)

binka said:


> This is one of them
> Brexit demo leader slammed over immigration posts



Lovely. State of that.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Lovely. State of that.


Filthy waste of humanity


----------



## chilango (Mar 23, 2019)

editor said:


> Look out for the billiard balls filled with paint/acid/anti matter!



I think the BBC must've forgotten to paste in its paragraph about "500 anarchists fuelled on high strength lager and intent in violence"


----------



## Supine (Mar 23, 2019)

chilango said:


> Oh wait. No, I'm not hearing anything if the sort. Funny that.



Because they are normal decent people and not trouble makers obviously


----------



## JimW (Mar 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Dontcha just wish you were there?
> 
> View attachment 165409


That's our former Stroud MP on the right there. Complete stuffed shirt, which is one up on the usual utter cunt of a Tory i suppose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2019)

editor said:


> Filthy waste of humanity


This would be the army with gurkhas and fijians in to repel those bastard immigrants


----------



## Patteran (Mar 23, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Hosts though, _hosts_. Not speakers as part of an attempt at a establishing the basis for a broad coalition - as on 2003 and related adventures. But _hosts_. Hosts on a demo. Like a dinner party reality-tv show.



Curated. Artisanal. Hand made. With love.

I don't want to sneer at all of a million or so people, but it lacks the possibility of any real consequence, of any actual effect. Whole endeavour feels like it has Auden's 'Poetry makes nothing happen' hanging over its 'carefully curated' placards. A far-right march in London with 10% of these numbers would cause shockwaves. This seems inconsequential.

(Just looking at Larkin's essay on Auden - he could be describing the contemporary politics surrounding/produced by some of the the marchers - 'feeling inferior to the working class, a sense that things needed a new impetus from somewhere, seeing out of the corner of an eye the rise of Fascism, the persecution of the Jews, the gathering dread of the next war that was half projected guilt about the last')


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2019)

'kinnel


----------



## JimW (Mar 23, 2019)

Followed at 17.35 by a barrel shoot of fresh fish compliant with all Eu quotas


----------



## killer b (Mar 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> 'kinnel
> 
> View attachment 165419


I just read that heseltine's speech was warmly received.


----------



## FiFi (Mar 23, 2019)

editor said:


> Filthy waste of humanity


I'm alarmed by his sentiments, and saddened by his spelling and grammer.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> I just read that heseltine's speech was warmly received.



I thought that auld Tory cunt was dead 

Brexsurrection?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 23, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I thought that auld Tory cunt was dead
> 
> Brexsurrection?


Taken the Brelixer of life, innit?


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> I just read that heseltine's speech was warmly received.



Green Party member friend described him as 'Hezza' on FB.

I despair.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 23, 2019)

editor said:


> BURN THE BANNERS!


No bulk SWP ones?


----------



## Riklet (Mar 23, 2019)

Lol what a pointless march


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 23, 2019)

FiFi said:


> saddened by his spelling and grammer.


----------



## Riklet (Mar 23, 2019)

Doesnt look like everyone has changed their mind though. #peoplesvote

These are the online petition stats showing the lowest percentage of signatories in different areas. Pretty much as you'd imagine.


----------



## FiFi (Mar 23, 2019)

planetgeli said:


>


Busted!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 23, 2019)

JimW said:


> Followed at 17.35 by a barrel shoot of fresh fish compliant with all Eu quotas



Followed at 17:40 by the 'hitting water after falling out of a boat' contest.


----------



## Winot (Mar 23, 2019)

Riklet said:


> Lol what a pointless march



Like most marches then.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 23, 2019)

Great Pic by my mate Pete Maclaine©


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2019)

YES

Calls grow for public inquiry into Brexit


----------



## Cid (Mar 23, 2019)

Honestly can't see that going anywhere. I can't think of a single point in brexit where it wasn't conducted within the parameters by which our state functions... Some bloody stupid decisions, yeah. But that doesn't really make a great deal of difference.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 23, 2019)

So TM is going to get an extension to Brexit assuming she wins MV3 which she still looks likely to lose, what happens if / when she loses it, do we just have no deal Brexit there and then?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 23, 2019)

weltweit said:


> So TM is going to get an extension to Brexit assuming she wins MV3 which she still looks likely to lose, what happens if / when she loses it, do we just have no deal Brexit there and then?



12 April is the new deadline.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 23, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> 12 April is the new deadline.


I was sure the extension was conditional on her winning a vote for her deal.


----------



## Cid (Mar 23, 2019)

weltweit said:


> I was sure the extension was conditional on her winning a vote for her deal.



Not this one. Mind you she seems intent on making the 12th basically the same as the 29th, by putting off MV3 as long as she can.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 24, 2019)

weltweit said:


> So TM is going to get an extension to Brexit assuming she wins MV3 which she still looks likely to lose, what happens if / when she loses it, do we just have no deal Brexit there and then?



from BBC website :



> *What about the delay?*
> At a summit in Brussels, both sides agreed to push back the Brexit date - and two new possible dates have been agreed instead.
> 
> One is *22 May*. If MPs approve Mrs May's deal, this will be the date when the UK leaves with the deal. It gives the UK enough time to ratify the deal (make it official using legislation).
> ...



so if MV3 doesn't happen, or is lost, then (as I understand it) options are either no deal happens on 12 April, agree longer extension (but will probably mean MEP elections) or revoke article 50 altogether


----------



## yield (Mar 24, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> so if MV3 doesn't happen, or is lost, then (as I understand it) options are either no deal happens on 12 April, agree longer extension (but will probably mean MEP elections) or revoke article 50 altogether


Could still be a second referendum or a general election?


----------



## mx wcfc (Mar 24, 2019)

yield said:


> Could still be a second referendum or a general election?


Not realistically, no.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 24, 2019)

yield said:


> Could still be a second referendum or a general election?



if a longer extension is agreed then i suppose something will have to be done rather than just put the whole thing off until the new cliff edge is in view however many months or years down the line.

in reality, not sure i can see many MPs voting for a second referendum

or enough tory MPs voting on a vote of no confidence in the government which would be needed to force a general election (and can see tinge and maybe even some right wing labour MPs voting with government to stave off the chance of losing their seats / corbyn government)


----------



## Uprising (Mar 24, 2019)

I voted second referendum. I wouldn't before today, but I'm just back from the demonstration and at tines it felt more like a celebration than a protest .I could well  be being overly optimistic because I'm still on a high from the speeches.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

Uprising said:


> I voted second referendum. I wouldn't before today, but I'm just back from the demonstration and at tines it felt more like a celebration than a protest .I could well  be being overly optimistic because I'm still on a high from the speeches.


You will be. I thought we were going to stop the Iraq War the night of the final march.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 24, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> Not realistically, no.



the government is falling apart and they have till april 12th. A general election is definitely well within the realms of probability - as is a 2nd ref. 
Westminster is playing "pass the turd" with brexit - most of them hate it but none wants to smeared with the blame for it not happening when the music stops. 
The government collapsing and the tories descending into civil war  kind of means an election has to happen. It should mean that they get left with the blame for the brexit mess. The government has no control over parliament and the tories are splitting into factions who are going to fight tooth and nail to either go hard brexit or stop no deal and go soft. Whoever ends up in charge might well provoke the other side to vote with the opposition in a No confidence motion and force an election. 
And I think corbyn's and labours tactic has been absolutely right - its the tory's clusterfuck - stay way the fuck away and commit to as little as possible.


----------



## Uprising (Mar 24, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You will be. I thought we were going to stop the Iraq War the night of the final march.


It felt very similar, but with crucial differences . The people on the stage were quite like that, but most of the people there weren't idealists. Not sure to explain what I mean by that, other than that they weren't people that usually go on marches.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 24, 2019)

Of course, they're all raving mad you know.


----------



## newbie (Mar 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> see if you can catch her at the end of today's little do and butter her up


I wasn't where she was and she didn't come to be buttered where I was, but in the spirit of your endorsement of her I read her piece in todays paper, where she tells us


> Encouraging you to take radical action is easy for me in my entirely unremarkable, safe, heterosexual, white, middle-class world. I’m not going to have to do any of the legwork or risk undoing many years of peaceful, convivial co-existence to step out into a world that I’m unfamiliar with and possibly ill-equipped to countenance – at the beginning at least.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 24, 2019)

Robert Peston rekons the coup is off - as it would merely hasten the collapse of the government. However - that is likely to happen anyway and we could well be heading for a snap General Election. 

The failing coup against Theresa May could bring down the Government

posted it in the Theresa Mays time is up as well - and should probably go in "tory death spiral" - all signifying a fateful coming together of all the plot strands for one explosive finale! (maybe)


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 24, 2019)

comparing the votes of the different petitions in the same area is interesting - 

lets take Clacton - famously a centre of brextism. (and i have a personal connection as its where i grew up) 

in the revoke a50 petition it has one of the lowest numbers of signatories - a mere 2,254. 

Its also has one of the highest number of signatories in the "leave with no deal" petition - a whopping 1,195! ..... oh.

So whats going on here? Again it suggests "active brexiteers" are significantly lower in numbers and organsiational networks than "active remainers". Even in Brexit strongholds.


----------



## Sue (Mar 24, 2019)

Well we need some excitement, what with the Tinge thing turning out to be the dampest of squibs.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 24, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> posted it in the Theresa Mays time is up as well - and should probably go in "tory death spiral" - all signifying a fateful coming together of all the plot strands for one explosive finale! (maybe)



"My pitch is very simple. I'm Theresa May and I think I'm the best person to be prime minister of this country."


----------



## Poot (Mar 24, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> from BBC website :
> 
> 
> 
> so if MV3 doesn't happen, or is lost, then (as I understand it) options are either no deal happens on 12 April, agree longer extension (but will probably mean MEP elections) or revoke article 50 altogether


According to the flow chart on the BBC website, a no-deal Brexit on 29th (Friday) is still very much a possibility if mv3 doesn't pass. Am I missing something?

Brexit: What could happen next?


----------



## xenon (Mar 24, 2019)

Poot said:


> According to the flow chart on the BBC website, a no-deal Brexit on 29th (Friday) is still very much a possibility if mv3 doesn't pass. Am I missing something?
> 
> Brexit: What could happen next?




I think you're right. A statutory instrument or something has to stop no deal by Friday. The fact there's a 12th April delay doesn't alter the wording of the withdrawel bill.

Which, alright, I haven't read. I'm assuming here it stipulates the 29th of March explicitly.


----------



## Poot (Mar 24, 2019)

xenon said:


> I think you're right. A statutory instrument or something has to stop no deal by Friday. The fact there's a 12th April delay doesn't alter the wording of the withdrawel bill.
> 
> Which, alright, I haven't read. I'm assuming here it stipulates the 29th of March explicitly.


Thank you. I'm dipping in and out because I have a tendency to obsess and catastrophise, and I don't think I can do Brexit and keep sane at the moment. Knowledge might well be power, but not if it's sending you to an early grave!


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 24, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> So whats going on here? Again it suggests "active brexiteers" are significantly lower in numbers and organsiational networks than "active remainers". Even in Brexit strongholds.


I agree with you that the people's vote crew is significantly more organised than strong leavers, but what do you draw from that conclusion? 

Wouldn't you agree that one of the reasons Leave won in the first place was because of the invisibility of a good number of Leave voters to power, they were ignored/dismissed.


----------



## extra dry (Mar 24, 2019)

A right mess. What the 27 states think if the ever wish to walk away.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 24, 2019)

extra dry said:


> A right mess. What the 27 states think if the ever wish to walk away.


Indeed.


----------



## Wookey (Mar 24, 2019)

Poot said:


> According to the flow chart on the BBC website, a no-deal Brexit on 29th (Friday) is still very much a possibility if mv3 doesn't pass. Am I missing something?
> 
> Brexit: What could happen next?



That article says: It could still arguably happen on 29 March, at least in UK law, if MPs reject the deal and won't accept any extension. The legal situation would be unclear in this situation because of the agreement made between the UK and the EU.

More straightforwardly, MPs could allow a no-deal Brexit to happen on 12 April.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 24, 2019)

Allow? It's nothing to do with them.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Allow? It's nothing to do with them.


Take back control


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Take back control


Just laughing at the v committed wookey.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Just laughing at the v committed wookey.


Everything he argues suggests he should be


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2019)

5.13m signatures on that petition now, at a rate of over 600/minute. 

A50 Petition Live Breakdown


----------



## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> YES
> 
> Calls grow for public inquiry into Brexit


What would be the point of that?


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> What would be the point of that?


This clusterfuck farce has cost taxpayers millions of pounds and turned us into a global laughing stock. Don't you think the people responsible should be held to account? And if not, why not?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> What would be the point of that?


Remember when leveson inquiry sorted out the newspaper industry lol


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> 5.13m signatures on that petition now, at a rate of over 600/minute.
> 
> A50 Petition Live Breakdown



All the more impressive considering the actual petition is so poorly worded.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> This clusterfuck farce has cost taxpayers millions of pounds and turned us into a global laughing stock. Don't you think the people responsible should be held to account? And if not, why not?


How would they be held to account, what would follow from some findings in about 5 years? Do you think they'll be surcharged? Do you think they'll do time?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> This clusterfuck farce has cost taxpayers millions of pounds and turned us into a global laughing stock. Don't you think the people responsible should be held to account? And if not, why not?


The people deserve to know what people are the  enemies of the people responsible for this subverting of the will of the people.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> Remember when leveson inquiry sorted out the newspaper industry lol


My example was whether Tony Blair is still serving his sentence from the Iraq war, but that serves just as well.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 24, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> Remember when leveson inquiry sorted out the newspaper industry lol



And Chilcot got Blair thrown in a dungeon for the rest of his days.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> How would they be held to account, what would follow from some findings in about 5 years? Do you think they'll be surcharged? Do you think they'll do time?


They would be placed in front of a wall - almost any wall - and made to look down narrow metal pipes for a minute or less


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> How would they be held to account, what would follow from some findings in about 5 years? Do you think they'll be surcharged? Do you think they'll do time?


Oh OK. Let's just leave it then. It's not like it's very important.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> Oh OK. Let's just leave it then. It's not like it's very important.


If you want to do something about it, do something about it, but don't wait for some fucking judge to do it in 5 years time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> If you want to do something about it, do something about it, but don't wait for some fucking judge to do it in 5 years time.


It'll have to be five years as they're expected at the sacn works in south georgia for a five year tour of duty and only after that might the survivors face justice


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2019)

This is great (graph shows the signatures flooding in)

“Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.”


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2019)




----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> If you want to do something about it, do something about it, but don't wait for some fucking judge to do it in 5 years time.


Or rather not do something about it. This wouldn't even result in a slap on a wrist like Chilcot.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> View attachment 165533


No 'population of the Isle of Sheppey'?

Shit graph.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> 5.13m signatures on that petition now, at a rate of over 600/minute.
> 
> A50 Petition Live Breakdown


Sums up the geographical and cultural divides pretty neatly, that list. Strong remain, mostly Labour, mostly south near the top. Strong leave, mostly Labour, mostly Midlands (specifically the Black Country) and northern England near the bottom. Lots of marginally remain/leave tory seats dotted around the place in the middle.

This is one of the problems that no solution can address. This divide is real and pretty stark, if anything made starker by the process itself by forcing people to define themselves as one or the other, and it isn't changing, even if a second referendum voted narrowly remain, which I think would be likely.


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sums up the geographical and cultural divides pretty neatly, that list. Strong remain, mostly Labour, mostly south near the top. Strong leave, mostly Labour, mostly Midlands (specifically the Black Country) and northern England near the bottom. Lots of marginally remain/leave tory seats dotted around the place in the middle.
> 
> This is one of the problems that no solution can address. This divide is real and pretty stark, if anything made starker by the process itself by forcing people to define themselves as one or the other, and isn't changing, even if a second referendum voted narrowly remain, which I think would be likely.


The damage that this farrago has created will live on for years, whatever the outcome.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> View attachment 165533



Why so many Slovenians gategrashing a UK government petition?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Or rather not do something about it. This wouldn't even result in a slap on a wrist like Chilcot.


Oh yeah, I'd ignore all this about inquiries completely. It all sounds a bit 'sir, sir, they wrote the wrong thing on a bus and the proles voted for it'.

Some of these characters actually think Chilcot _achieved_ something (from ed's link):



> Peter Ricketts, the former national security adviser and former head civil servant in the Foreign Office, cited the Chilcot inquiry into the Iraq war. “Chilcot took a long time, but it was cathartic,” he said. “The report was widely seen to have done the job and I think you can say the British system is better for it. I think the handling of Brexit has been such a failure of the process of government, with such wide ramifications, that there needs to be a searching public inquiry.


----------



## elbows (Mar 24, 2019)

Take a look at this graph
That shows who'll get the last laugh
Not, not, not not not not.

A problem decades in the making
All the faking
All the piss poor taking

The times they are deranging
Well what did you expect
After decades of neglect

Priorities, priorities,
On your knees.
Curdled neolib cheese.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> The damage that this farrago has created will live on for years, whatever the outcome.


The referendum didn't create these divisions they've been present and growing for decades, as in countries across the west.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

In passing, there's no denying a 5m+ petition is pretty impressive and says something. But it was the perfect moment to do it (with the no deal panics last week and the demo yesterday). But y'know, it ain't votes - the actual vote from 2016. To be honest, that adds up to _deal with it, _however hard that might be for some.
I would just say though, if the opinion polls had been showing say 60%+ opposition to Brexit for the period since the vote, our oh so democratically principled politicians would have binned Brexit long ago. Trouble is, the polls haven't shown anything like that on a consistent basis.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> The referendum didn't create these divisions they've been present and growing for decades, as in countries across the west.


It didn't create the divisions, but it has helped to mould them in a particular way. Very strongly remain areas like Hackney or Holborn and St Pancras are areas with big w/c populations that vote overwhelmingly Labour and voted overwhelmingly to remain. The w/c people of those areas share many of the same economic and political interests as the w/c people of, say, West Brom or Wolverhampton, who vote Labour and voted almost as strongly to leave. One set of people has clearly reached very different conclusions as to the causes and potential solutions to their very similar problems from the other.


----------



## binka (Mar 24, 2019)

I wouldn't be surprised if a very significant proportion of the names signing that petition aren't genuine. As far as I can tell all you need to vote is an email address and there are tools out there to bulk create those. Surely not too much of a challenge to automate the whole process. I guess we'll see when the petition gets to 70 million


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> In passing, there's no denying a 5m+ petition is pretty impressive and says something. But it was the perfect moment to do it (with the no deal panics last week and the demo yesterday). But y'know, it ain't votes - the actual vote from 2016. To be honest, that adds up to _deal with it, _however hard that might be for some.


Deal with what? May's red lines? Were they on the ballot? Crash-out no-deal? Did anybody campaign to leave on that basis?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> In passing, there's no denying a 5m+ petition is pretty impressive and says something. But it was the perfect moment to do it (with the no deal panics last week and the demo yesterday). But y'know, it ain't votes - the actual vote from 2016. To be honest, that adds up to _deal with it, _however hard that might be for some.
> I would just say though, if the opinion polls had been showing say 60%+ opposition to Brexit for the period since the vote, our oh so democratically principled politicians would have binned Brexit long ago. Trouble is, the polls haven't shown anything like that on a consistent basis.



Indeed.



> The survey shows the country split down the middle, with 43% supporting a delay to Brexit in order to hold a second public vote and 43% believing the UK should simply quit without any agreement with Brussels.
> 
> Britain split over prospect of second Brexit vote, poll finds



What a fucking mess.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

binka said:


> I would be surprised if a very significant proportion of the names signing that petition aren't genuine. As far as I can tell all you need to vote is an email address and there are tools out there to bulk create those. Surely not too much of a challenge to automate the whole process. I guess we'll see when the petition gets to 70 million


Unlikely. The pattern of voting is more or less exactly what you'd expect. It took off directly after May's 'message to the nation', and there are the social media alerts all over the net to show that the take-off was genuine enough.


----------



## chilango (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> In passing, there's no denying a 5m+ petition is pretty impressive and says something. But it was the perfect moment to do it (with the no deal panics last week and the demo yesterday). But y'know, it ain't votes - the actual vote from 2016. To be honest, that adds up to _deal with it, _however hard that might be for some.
> I would just say though, if the opinion polls had been showing say 60%+ opposition to Brexit for the period since the vote, our oh so democratically principled politicians would have binned Brexit long ago. Trouble is, the polls haven't shown anything like that on a consistent basis.



It is impressive.

As were the numbers yesterday.

But - as I asked on one of threads - how are those numbers going to be mobilised to continue "the fight"?


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> The referendum didn't create these divisions they've been present and growing for decades, as in countries across the west.


How about the well documented rise in racism and xenophobia? Totally unrelated in your opinion too?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

binka said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if a very significant proportion of the names signing that petition aren't genuine. As far as I can tell all you need to vote is an email address and there are tools out there to bulk create those. Surely not too much of a challenge to automate the whole process. I guess we'll see when the petition gets to 70 million


How would you design a programme to click on the link in the email that comes from parliament?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> How about the well documented rise in racism and xenophobia? Totally unrelated in your opinion too?


Good point. And in places that voted very strongly remain as well, such as many parts of London. It's not a coincidence that a large majority of BAME people voted remain - it wasn't because of a strong sense of European identity or love of the EU.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Deal with what? May's red lines? Were they on the ballot? Crash-out no-deal? Did anybody campaign to leave on that basis?


But equally, 'overturn Brexit if you later don't like the way it's going' wasn't on the ballot. Look, I agree, I suspect Brexit will make things worse - it won't take us from good to bad because things are 'neoliberal bad' right now. But it may make things worse, if for no reason than the chaos created by May. That's why the only positive way out may be the GE+ route mentioned by Butchers. But placing the wording of the question at the heart of this isn't right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

chilango said:


> It is impressive.
> 
> As were the numbers yesterday.
> 
> But - as I asked on one of threads - how are those numbers going to be mobilised to continue "the fight"?


When they poured across the border
I was cautioned to surrender
This I could not do
I took my gun and vanished


----------



## binka (Mar 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> How would you design a programme to click on the link in the email that comes from parliament?


How would I do it? I wouldn't because I'm not an expert. But even I've heard of macros. Although I'm sure there are more sophisticated ways of doing it


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## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

binka said:


> How would I do it? I wouldn't because I'm not an expert. But even I've heard of macros. Although I'm sure there are more sophisticated ways of doing it


Perhaps you could let the parliamentary it guys know about it, because they're confident in their system


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## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> How about the well documented rise in racism and xenophobia? Totally unrelated in your opinion too?


But you seem to be throwing this at leave voters as if they were the ones who caused it - whereas I suspect many of the leave voters on this and other threads have been involved in antiracist politics for years.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> But equally, 'overturn Brexit if you later don't like the way it's going' wasn't on the ballot. .


It wasn't on the ballot no. No plan of any kind was on the ballot, nor was there any accepted plan out there with a mandate to be implemented, as was the case in the Scottish Indy ref. It was a rotten referendum in many ways, for the simple reason that those who came up with it didn't even consider the possibility that they'd lose. But that doesn't turn into a carte blanche for any kind of brexit to be forced through in its name.


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## binka (Mar 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Perhaps you could let the parliamentary it guys know about it, because they're confident in their system


Oh good I'm glad you have such faith in the parliamentary it guys


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> But you seem to be throwing this at leave voters as if they were the ones who caused it - whereas I suspect many of the leave voters on this and other threads have been involved in antiracist politics for years.


I'm making the point that Brexit has caused more divisions, more xenophobia and more racism. Do you agree?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> But you seem to be throwing this at leave voters as if they were the ones who caused it - whereas I suspect many of the leave voters on this and other threads have been involved in antiracist politics for years.


It was a consequence of the vote, a consequence that had been predicted before the vote by many. I remember a slightly drunken Spymaster on the eve of the vote urging people not to vote with the racists. This effect should not have been a surprise to anybody.


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## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> I'm making the point that Brexit has caused more divisions, more xenophobia and more racism. Do you agree?


I'd disagree with the word 'caused'. It hasn't made non-racists into racists.


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## maomao (Mar 24, 2019)

binka said:


> How would I do it? I wouldn't because I'm not an expert. But even I've heard of macros. Although I'm sure there are more sophisticated ways of doing it


You have to be on the electoral roll to vote on a yougov petition. An email address is not enough.

ETA: I seem to be wrong about this. Please ignore me.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 24, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Deal with what? May's red lines? Were they on the ballot? Crash-out no-deal? Did anybody campaign to leave on that basis?





The remain campaign made it clear, that voting to leave would include leaving single market & customs union, and ending free movement.

May's 'red-lines' have been leaving single market & customs union, and ending free movement.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

binka said:


> Oh good I'm glad you have such faith in the parliamentary it guys


soz I was misremembering this story 
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/technology-47668946


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'd disagree with the word 'caused'. It hasn't made non-racists into racists.


It gave racists the confidence to be racist in public. I saw it in the months after the vote, here in London, here in an area that voted overwhelmingly remain. Lots of people saw it.  The cunts were emboldened to come out with their nasty cuntishness where before they would keep quiet.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 24, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It didn't create the divisions, but it has helped to mould them in a particular way.


Sure, but they would have still been there (and growing) if there had not been a referendum or if remain had won. And they will still be there if there is a 2nd vote and/or article 50 is revoked and the UK remains in the EU.


editor said:


> How about the well documented rise in racism and xenophobia? Totally unrelated in your opinion too?


Well the referendum certainly didn't _create_ racism and xenophobia. The last 15 years has seen the rise, and fall, of the two most electorally successful hard-right political parties in the UK. That shows a longer term issue, one that is paralleled across France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, the USA, Australia, Sweden, etc.


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## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It was a consequence of the vote, a consequence that had been predicted before the vote by many. I remember a slightly drunken Spymaster on the eve of the vote urging people not to vote with the racists. This effect should not have been a surprise to anybody.


Well, in practice, that was my own position. No way I could vote for the EU and normally I'd have been leave inclined. But in the absence of any kind of strong lexit the idea of lining up alongside farage was too much for me so I didn't vote. But again, Brexit didn't _cause_ division and racism.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The remain campaign made it clear, that voting to leave would include leaving single market & customs union, and ending free movement.
> 
> May's 'red-lines' have been leaving single market & customs union, and ending free movement.


The remain campaign made it clear? So the leave manifesto was a thing articulated by its opponents?


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Well, in practice, that was my own position. No way I could vote for the EU and normally I'd have been leave inclined. But in the absence of any kind of strong lexit the idea of lining up alongside farage was too much for me so I didn't vote. But again, Brexit didn't _cause_ division and racism.


It has made division and racism worse.


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## mentalchik (Mar 24, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It gave racists the confidence to be racist in public. I saw it in the months after the vote, here in London, here in an area that voted overwhelmingly remain. Lots of people saw it.  The cunts were emboldened to come out with their nasty cuntishness where before they would keep quiet.



Me too...

in fact where i work i hear it on almost a daily basis


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## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I remember a slightly drunken Spymaster .


 *A what??*


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## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Sure, but they would have still been there (and growing) if there had not been a referendum or if remain had won. And they will still be there if there is a 2nd vote and/or article 50 is revoked and the UK remains in the EU.
> 
> Well the referendum certainly didn't _create_ racism and xenophobia. The last 15 years has seen the rise, and fall, of the two most electorally successful hard-right political parties in the UK. That shows a longer term issue, one that is paralleled across France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, the USA, Australia, Sweden, etc.


Not to mention theresa may's fostering of racism while at the home office, her hostile environment etc


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## binka (Mar 24, 2019)

maomao said:


> You have to be on the electoral roll to vote on a yougov petition. An email address is not enough.


I did go on the site and put my name is as dave with the postcode w11aa and the email address fuckoff@hotmail.com then I got to the screen that said 'one more step' where below it says "you signature will not be counted until you click the link in your email". No mention anywhere of being on the electoral roll


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## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> *A what??*


Yeh it's unheard of otherwise for him to be only slightly pissed


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## maomao (Mar 24, 2019)

binka said:


> I did go on the site and put my name is as dave with the postcode w11aa and the email address fuckoff@hotmail.com then I got to the screen that said 'one more step' where below it says "you signature will not be counted until you click the link in your email". No mention anywhere of being on the electoral roll


Ye. See my edit. I'm wrong.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

maomao said:


> You have to be on the electoral roll to vote on a yougov petition. An email address is not enough.


This isn't a yougov petition


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## butchersapron (Mar 24, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It didn't create the divisions, but it has helped to mould them in a particular way. Very strongly remain areas like Hackney or Holborn and St Pancras are areas with big w/c populations that vote overwhelmingly Labour and voted overwhelmingly to remain. The w/c people of those areas share many of the same economic and political interests as the w/c people of, say, West Brom or Wolverhampton, who vote Labour and voted almost as strongly to leave. One set of people has clearly reached very different conclusions as to the causes and potential solutions to their very similar problems from the other.


Moulded and moulders. That's why we hate you. You'll get youR win in the end.You always were going to.


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## andysays (Mar 24, 2019)

editor said:


> How about the well documented rise in racism and xenophobia? Totally unrelated in your opinion too?


Racism and xenophobia has also been growing many countries across the west in recent years, it isn't something which has happened specifically in Britain or in response to the referendum.

Certainly that racism was used by some of those campaigning for Brexit, and 'outsiders' from other EU countries or from non EU countries were blamed for Britain's problems, but again this is nothing new or specific to the referendum.

And there was an increase in racist attacks and other incidents reported after the referendum, presumably as the general level of racism in public discourse gave people who were already inclined that way confidence to put their thoughts into action, but that doesn't mean that the referendum made people more racist or xenophobic than they already were.


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## binka (Mar 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> soz I was misremembering this story
> www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/technology-47668946


Yes I read that story and it hinges on needing an email address to vote making it ''much harder and much less likely" that bots are being used. Yes needing unique email addresses is harder than not needing one but it is far away from being an insurmountable problem considering you get get programs that will mass create email addresses for you


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## DotCommunist (Mar 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Not to mention theresa may's fostering of racism while at the home office, her hostile environment etc


TM of course also campaigned for remain


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Moulded and moulders. That's why we hate you. You'll get you win in the end.You always were going to.


Do you even try to understand why people from other parts of the country think differently? As for moulding - yes, simply, it has moulded a bunch of people into either 'remainers' or 'leavers'. You've been as guilty of that particular bit of moulding as anyone with your posting on here. So you're a flat-out hypocrite in this particular instance. A hypocrite with no answers to people who talk about a rise in racism that they themselves have experienced or people who have concerns for people from the EU who are being fucked over by this process. No answers at all, so you just try to pretend that it's a non-problem, or even more laughably, that it's a 'liberal' concern. You're totally clueless on this issue and you don't even realise it.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> TM of course also campaigned for remain


With all the great effect she's displayed in her ability to get brexit through the commons


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## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do you even try to understand why people from other parts of the country think differently? As for moulding - yes, simply, it has moulded a bunch of people into either 'remainers' or 'leavers'. You've been as guilty of that particular bit of moulding as anyone with your posting on here.


You argued they do think differently but haven't understood why.


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## butchersapron (Mar 24, 2019)

**
messed the quote up


----------



## Winot (Mar 24, 2019)

Poot said:


> According to the flow chart on the BBC website, a no-deal Brexit on 29th (Friday) is still very much a possibility if mv3 doesn't pass. Am I missing something?
> 
> Brexit: What could happen next?



Here is a long article by a Professsor of Public Law that says otherwise. I haven’t read anything that contradicts this (not to say it doesn’t exist). 

TLDR - the Lisbon Treaty determines whether the UK is part of the EU not domestic law. As the extension has been asked for and agreed, we are a member until (at least) 12 April. We will not leave on 29 March. 

However, domestic law still defines exit day as 29 March. It can easily be amended by statutory instrument to a later date. If it’s *not* amended then we still don’t leave the EU on 29 March, but we end up with a legal clusterfuck because domestic law is no longer aligned with EU law (which continues to apply). 

Extending Article 50: Separating myth and legal reality


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2019)




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## chilango (Mar 24, 2019)

Another thing I'm curious about...

.for those berating Leave voters for the rise in racism prompted by the vote to Leave, if Brexit is cancelled do you think that racism/the Far-Right will increase or decrease as a result of that?


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## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh it's unheard of otherwise for him to be only slightly pissed


Look, I was just concerned that the reputation of one of our most respected posters was being traduced. This decline in civility is one of the _real_ consequences of Brexit.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 24, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The remain campaign made it clear, that voting to leave would include leaving single market & customs union, and ending free movement.
> 
> May's 'red-lines' have been leaving single market & customs union, and ending free movement.



Wasn't clear to me, and in any case it's not really encumbent upon the remain side to define what leaving would entail.


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## sunnysidedown (Mar 24, 2019)

It would appear that the arrogance shown by the vast majority of remain voters before the original referendum is still fully on display. 
They took as granted that there would be a remain vote and haven’t in the slightest considered the reasons why this was not to be. They are instead fully engaged in smearing all leave voters as thick racists and are expecting to get the whole thing over turned in their favour.

The state they left London in yesterday after their jolly says much about these entitled cunts. I wouldn’t want to live next door to one.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 24, 2019)

chilango said:


> Another thing I'm curious about...
> 
> .for those berating Leave voters for the rise in racism prompted by the vote to Leave, if Brexit is cancelled do you think that racism/the Far-Right will increase or decrease as a result of that?



I don't think the amount of racism will change. I do think the extent to which people feel empowered to speak and act in overtly racist ways is subject to changes in the short term. It's hard to make predictions based on causal logic because racism isn't a logical thing.

It seems unlikely that your common-or-garden racist dickhead will actually be happy whatever happens.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Look, I was just concerned that the reputation of one of our most respected posters was being traduced. This decline in civility is one of the _real_ consequences of Brexit.


It was being traduced by you suggesting he was occasionally nearly sober


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## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> It was being traduced by you suggesting he was occasionally nearly sober


It's all about the direction of travel.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 24, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I agree with you that the people's vote crew is significantly more organised than strong leavers, but what do you draw from that conclusion?
> 
> Wouldn't you agree that one of the reasons Leave won in the first place was because of the invisibility of a good number of Leave voters to power, they were ignored/dismissed.



very much so. but -  its this very invisibility and isolation and lack of engagement which arguably, in the case of Brexit being reversed -  makes the likelyhood of large scale civil disorder - or any sort of _organised_ political action beyond an uptick in the UKIP (or whoever) vote - unlikely. 
It may also suggest that a lot of people who voted leave - aren't actually that arsed about it.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> It would appear that the arrogance shown by the vast majority of remain voters before the original referendum is still fully on display.
> They took as granted that there would be a remain vote and haven’t in the slightest considered the reasons why this was not to be. They are instead fully engaged in smearing all leave voters as thick racists and are expecting to get the whole thing over turned in their favour.
> 
> The state they left London in yesterday after their jolly says much about these entitled cunts. I wouldn’t want to live next door to one.


May I contrast that with the way the BNP left the garden in front of Euston Station the day of their agm in 1993, when not even a dropped cigarette end was to be found when they departed.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 24, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> very much so. but -  its this very invisibility and isolation and lack of engagement which arguably, in the case of Brexit being reversed -  makes the likelyhood of large scale civil disorder - or any sort of _organised_ political action beyond an uptick in the UKIP (or whoever) vote - unlikely.
> It may also suggest that a lot of people who voted leave - aren't actually that arsed about it.


I largely agree with the first, I don't think civil disorder is on the cards (at least in a significant way). I'm more skeptical about the second, I think a lot of people, whether remain or leave, are frankly just fucking tired of it and want it to be over. But that doesn't mean they don't care about it nor that they won't be angry if they think the politicians are treating them like mugs.


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## Steel Icarus (Mar 24, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I agree with you that the people's vote crew is significantly more organised than strong leavers, but what do you draw from that conclusion?
> 
> Wouldn't you agree that one of the reasons Leave won in the first place was because of the invisibility of a good number of Leave voters to power, they were ignored/dismissed.


I'd also suggest it's simply that those in power and the opposition etc are all still saying Brexit will happen. Why go and march for something that's already going to happen?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2019)

Wilf said:


> It's all about the direction of travel.


No one dared accuse auld spy of near sobriety in years gone by


----------



## A380 (Mar 24, 2019)

binka said:


> I did go on the site and put my name is as dave with the postcode w11aa and the email address fuckoff@hotmail.com then I got to the screen that said 'one more step' where below it says "you signature will not be counted until you click the link in your email". No mention anywhere of being on the electoral roll


So your 'fuck off Dave' signature hasn't been counted; the point of this was?


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## binka (Mar 24, 2019)

A380 said:


> So your 'fuck off Dave' signature hasn't been counted; the point of this was?


Did you even bother to read the post I was replying to? The point I was making was you don't need to be on the electoral roll to sign the petition nothing else


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## A380 (Mar 24, 2019)

binka said:


> Did you even bother to read the post I was replying to? The point I was making was you don't need to be on the electoral roll to sign the petition nothing else



Noone thinks you do. You need an e-mail address thats all.


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## philosophical (Mar 24, 2019)

On a level of purely personal experience my son who is mixed race, was subject to a significant increase of racist incidents (I am not talking about physical stuff) in terms of comments and insults than he was usually used to getting, in the period after the referendum result. An increase that he would comment on, and also that he had to intervene in others he witnessed. 
I am talking about a 21 year old, usually on the commute to work when this kind of thing happened.
From his personal account there was a definite spike in his experience of direct racism after the result.


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## binka (Mar 24, 2019)

A380 said:


> Noone thinks you do. You need an e-mail address thats all.


Maomao said you did but then edited his post when he realised he'd made an error. I'd made my post before the edit.


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## Gerry1time (Mar 24, 2019)

A380 said:


> Noone thinks you do. You need an e-mail address thats all.



I’m not sure, but having had some exposure to the early days construction of the site, I’d be surprised if there wasn’t IP range or even cookie pattern tracking of signatures in there too.


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## sheothebudworths (Mar 24, 2019)

What do we _do_, faced with a vote we had such limited info on to start with - and which we apparently have such a lack of control over now - when 'remain' or 'leave' has become so devisive, itself?
I DID vote remain in the end but I was very torn - it was a long old walk to the polling station - and no one I met knew what they were voting for.
It's brutal to be faced with (and apologies if I'm not getting it) the suggestion that there's some _choice_ between enabling racism, or dismissing the voices of the WC, and as if the two don't cross over, when there's been no choice to _start_ with.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 24, 2019)

sheothebudworths said:


> What do we _do_, faced with a vote we had such limited info on to start with - and which we apparently have such a lack of control over now - when 'remain' or 'leave' has become so devisive, itself?
> I DID vote remain in the end but I was very torn - it was a long old walk to the polling station - and no one I met knew what they were voting for.
> It's brutal to be faced with (and apologies if I'm not getting it) the suggestion that there's some _choice_ between enabling racism, or dismissing the voices of the WC, and as if the two don't cross over, when there's been no choice to _start_ with.


The WC doesn't speak with one voice, for starters. That much is very clear. And WC interests are not obviously served by any kind of brexit on offer, afaic, so supporting or opposing a particular form of it isn't defined in that way. I've yet to see any sort of worked example of how this is not the case. _My_ red line involves the imposition of new immigration controls and its negative effect on people who don't deserve it. As long as that forms part of brexit, I will continue to wish nothing but a sorry collapse on the entire enterprise.


----------



## A380 (Mar 24, 2019)

binka said:


> Did you even bother to read the post I was replying to? The point I was making was you don't need to be on the electoral roll to sign the petition nothing else





binka said:


> Maomao said you did but then edited his post when he realised he'd made an error. I'd made my post before the edit.



I’ll just leave this here for posterity. ‘Did you even bother to read my post’ you declaim like some angry Sir  Buffton  Tufton of Tunbridge Wells. Then you engage in frankly May like whinging that someone else is at fault. ‘Oh but Miss, Miss a bigger boy changed his post and ran away , it’s not myyyyy fault’.


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## binka (Mar 24, 2019)

A380 said:


> I’ll just leave this here for posterity. ‘Did you even bother to read my post’ you declaim like some angry Sir  Buffton  Tufton of Tunbridge Wells. Then you engage in frankly May like whinging that someone else is at fault. ‘Oh but Miss, Miss a bigger boy changed his post and ran away , it’s not myyyyy fault’.


I didn't even know what point you think you're making. Another poster said you needed to be on the electoral roll to sign the petition, I said you don't by showing the steps I went through, in the mean time they edited their post to say they'd made a mistake and were thinking of yougov. That was the end of it. No one else is even slightly interested in any of this


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 24, 2019)

binka said:


> Oh good I'm glad you have such faith in the parliamentary it guys



The email you received from the Petitions Team looked like this no? (this is the one I got)

https ://petition.parliament.uk/signatures/62317241/verify?token=XXXXXXXXX (I've fiddled with it so it's not an actual hyperlink for purpose of explanation, it didn't actually say XXXXXXXX)

From left to right
https: means this is an encrypted web page
petition.parliament.uk is the internet address of the petitions server (which gets resolved into an IP address by your ISP)
signatures/62317241 is a file directory on that server which will contain a program called either verify.php or verify.html (first probably) There will be one such directory for every petition (with a unique number)
When you click on the link what happens is that your email client which knows a hyperlink when it sees one loads your browser and bungs the link you were sent straight into address bar. which immiediately runs that program because the browser goes straight to it having all the info it needs.
The program can access the whole address but it's only truly interested in the string token='whatever' because that is a unique value  that was generated when you went to the website and filled in all your details, It finds that in the database and ticks you off and there you go the petition is signed and it remembers your email address so you can't sign it twice.
Of course the petition counts email addresses not actual people so if you've got 2 email addresses like a work and a private one you can sign it twice but with a paper petition on the street you could always sign it once and then go round the corner and sign with a different name. Yes there are no doubt people who have signed it 2 or 3 times but not 1000's of times and not enough to significantly invalidate a number this large.
Unlike you I can think of ways to add lots of fake signatures but it requires certain  things a) the programming skills needed  b) a fair amount of money to pay for the computing resources needed (In this country since they can trace where you're coming from)  and most importantly c) the time to set it all up.
I've worked with computers for 40 years before most people even knew they existed and this isn't the sort of thing that could be done by some kid in a basement (despite every movie you've seen) but would need someone prepared to throw lots of moolah at it which brings us to the burning question of why?, what would they achieve that would be worth spending lots of money on that they could just use to bribe MP's instead?
Anything  other than assuming this petition is  (mostly) honest is conspiracy theory.


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## binka (Mar 24, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> but would need someone prepared to throw lots of moolah at it which brings us to the burning question of why?, what would they achieve that would be worth spending lots of money on that they could just use to bribe MP's instead?
> Anything  other than assuming this petition is  (mostly) honest is conspiracy theory.


I appreciate you know a lot more about the techinical aspects than me so I wouldn't doubt anything you say on that point. 

Depends how much money you mean though? Tens of thousands? To have it all over the news and social media that apparently the whole country is behind this? I can definitely see someone thinking that's money well spent.

But no you're right I don't have any proof at all. I just said I wouldn't be surprised - and I wouldn't.


----------



## LDC (Mar 24, 2019)

That anti-Brexit/PV demo was the same demographic that the post-2011 riot broom army was the fucking bunch of cunts.


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## A380 (Mar 24, 2019)

binka said:


> ...
> 
> But no you're right I don't have any proof at all. I just said I wouldn't be surprised - and I wouldn't.



You do my work for me.


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## Miss-Shelf (Mar 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That anti-Brexit/PV demo was the same demographic that the post-2011 riot broom army was the fucking bunch of cunts.


it was a bit more nuanced than that....not much more,  but a bit


----------



## Wilf (Mar 24, 2019)

sheothebudworths said:


> What do we _do_, faced with a vote we had such limited info on to start with - and which we apparently have such a lack of control over now - when 'remain' or 'leave' has become so devisive, itself?
> I DID vote remain in the end but I was very torn - it was a long old walk to the polling station - and no one I met knew what they were voting for.
> It's brutal to be faced with (and apologies if I'm not getting it) the suggestion that there's some _choice_ between enabling racism, or dismissing the voices of the WC, and as if the two don't cross over, when there's been no choice to _start_ with.


Spot on.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 24, 2019)

binka said:


> I appreciate you know a lot more about the techinical aspects than me so I wouldn't doubt anything you say on that point.
> 
> Depends how much money you mean though? Tens of thousands? To have it all over the news and social media that apparently the whole country is behind this? I can definitely see someone thinking that's money well spent.
> 
> But no you're right I don't have any proof at all. I just said I wouldn't be surprised - and I wouldn't.


No-one has asked me if I'm up for it so I couldn't tell you. £100K at least though which brings us back to conspiracy theories again. Not being a millionaire entrepreneur myself I'm not fully cognizant with how they think about influencing politicians but If I had £100K+ to spend on influencing Tory Party policy I would just give it to the fuckers and have done. I bet £100K to Tory Party funds would get me a personal audience with whomever I wished without trying to manipulate the proles to get what I wanted.  And of course a Party Political Donation would be tax deductible to boot.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 25, 2019)

It's still going pretty strong. 5.3 million now. Guess that's probably about it till people log in to computers tomorrow. Unless those Russian bots work round the clock.


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## Uprising (Mar 25, 2019)

Uprising said:


> It felt very similar, but with crucial differences . The people on the stage were quite like that, but most of the people there weren't idealists. Not sure to explain what I mean by that, other than that they weren't people that usually go on marches.


Just edited that post, as I'd missed out the bit below
*Not sure to explain what I mean by that, other than that they weren't people that usually go on marches.*
...which was  was the only bit worth reading. 

Not sure why it got  like...


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2019)

A380 said:


> You do my work for me.


Yes, that would have been a fitting placard


----------



## Gerry1time (Mar 25, 2019)

There’s also the practice in politics, that I’ve seen used more than once in the Westminster bubble, of attacking your opponents whilst distracting people from your faults by accusing your opponents of your faults. Which is why the leave side accusing the petition of being manipulated by Russian bots is such an interesting choice of words. 

I’m pretty sure there is pro-leave astroturfing being run on comments sections online. Running political astroturfing has been common for years now. I read conservative home quite regulary for the lols in the comments section, and some of the pro brexit comments in there just read quite awkwardly. As if they were written by people who know about the uk, but don’t quite know it well enough to sound like they’re truly from the uk, despite them claiming to be so. 

So yes, it’s all hunches based on experience at this stage, but I have little doubt that the number of signatures of the petition is reasonably reliable.


----------



## LDC (Mar 25, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> it was a bit more nuanced than that....not much more,  but a bit



In the sober light of Monday morning I'm a bit more reasonable and nuanced myself, so yes, I know you're right, but the response about this whole debacle from the left is completely depressing.

Massive event on the political landscape, widespread anger and lack of faith in mainstream politics, a chance to talk about all sorts of things. What do we get? A deafening silence from some, while many throw their lot in with EU flag waving pricks. FFS.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> In the sober light of Monday morning I'm a bit more reasonable and nuanced myself, so yes, I know you're right, but the decent response about this whole debacle from the left is completely depressing.
> 
> Massive event on the political landscape, widespread anger and lack of faith in mainstream politics, a chance to talk about all sorts of things. What do we get? A deafening silence from some, while many throw their lot in with EU flag waving pricks. FFS.


yeh but this lack of faith didn't come out of nowhere, it's come out of cash for questions, the iraq war, the expenses scandal, tuition fees, etc etc etc, it's tosh to say it's all from brexit. we've seen politicians treat the electorate as dummies for years - it was a great factor in the bnp vote and as we've all said in the referendum result.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

On one of the brexit threads last week or so I noted that parliament are so unused to doing things that don't run in the grooves of cabinet government that they were struggling to even work out how indicative votes would run (still less that they might 'reach out' to other parties to get a majority for some deal or other). According to this, they _still_ haven't sorted whether there will be some kind of alternative vote process or even whether the indicative votes will be by secret ballot. Couldn't make it up:
The week ahead for Brexit:  third time lucky for May?


----------



## LDC (Mar 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but this lack of faith didn't come out of nowhere, it's come out of cash for questions, the iraq war, the expenses scandal, tuition fees, etc etc etc, it's tosh to say it's all from brexit. we've seen politicians treat the electorate as dummies for years - it was a great factor in the bnp vote and as we've all said in the referendum result.



I'm not at all saying it's come from Brexit, although I think some of that has been given a boost (or exposed by it again), it's more that this chance to talk about radical political ideas has been completely missed, or worse than missed, has pushed some who should know better into defending the enemy and its institutions.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2019)

Petition is at 5.44m but seems to slowing down considerably
“Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.”


----------



## teqniq (Mar 25, 2019)

I think they will still ignore it anyway, regardless.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 25, 2019)

editor said:


> Petition is at 5.44m but seems to slowing down considerably
> “Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.”



Pretty amazing figures. Could kick off again if no deal starts swimming into view.


----------



## Supine (Mar 25, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That anti-Brexit/PV demo was the same demographic that the post-2011 riot broom army was the fucking bunch of cunts.



I'd prefer to be with them than the rude foul mouthed brigade you seem to represent.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2019)

teqniq said:


> I think they will still ignore it anyway, regardless.


It makes May's "this is the will of the people" guff look less credible by the day though, particularly given the size of the demo and the laughable bunch of OAP stragglers on Farage's comedy march. Europe is pissing themselves.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

editor said:


> Petition is at 5.44m but seems to slowing down considerably
> “Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.”


There's no denying it's a lot of people, but I think it stops short of being something the politicians need to take (much) account of. 5 or 6 million is the highest ever, but is in the same neck of the woods as an earlier petition (4.1m?). Impossible to say what kind of threshold it needs to get over to become significant - 8 - 9 million? It's certainly not going to manage that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm not at all saying it's come from Brexit, although I think some of that has been given a boost (or exposed by it again), it's more that this chance to talk about radical political ideas has been completely missed, or worse than missed, has pushed some who should know better into defending the enemy and its institutions.


the chance to talk about radical politics has i think been missed because so many people here are happy to comment on the progress of brexit as though it were a football game when so much of the action isn't on the westminster pitch but in the electorate watching. the utterly abysmal way politicians have struggled with brexit has left parliament looking useless. i think that spaces have opened up, particularly over the last six months, as parliament has been tried and found wanting - i don't see where we are as the end of a conversation but very much as the start of one. you say 'some who should know better have been defending the enemy and its institutions' - who's that then?


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2019)

Wilf said:


> There's no denying it's a lot of people, but I think it stops short of being something the politicians need to take (much) account of. 5 or 6 million is the highest ever, but is in the same neck of the woods as an earlier petition (4.1m?). Impossible to say what kind of threshold it needs to get over to become significant - 8 - 9 million? It's certainly not going to manage that.


People are still signing at a rate of 330 _per minute_ so it may well get up to that figure.


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 25, 2019)

wont pass 8mil trust me.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 25, 2019)

teqniq said:


> I think they will still ignore it anyway, regardless.



yes and no. It does send a message that there are a lot of people who feel very strongly that brexit should be cancelled - and that all the evidence shows they are more numerous and more organsied than those ardently pushing for no deal. 
That and the massive demo will certainly have made an impression on MPs as they weigh up the exciting choices of political pain that come with having to   clean up  the stinking pile of brexity shit that Theresa may has deposited on the house of commons carpet.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 25, 2019)

if we get to the stage of fuel shortages and empty super market shelves i think the petition will spring back into life. But id imagine public anger would move well past the online petition stage if we get to that level of chaos.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> yes and no. It does send a message that there are a lot of people who feel very strongly that brexit should be cancelled - and that all the evidence shows they are more numerous and more organsied than those ardently pushing for no deal.
> That and the massive demo will certainly have made an impression on MPs as they weigh up the exciting choices of political pain that come with having to   clean up  the stinking pile of brexity shit that Theresa may has deposited on the house of commons carpet.


It's not really going to be news to the MPS in shitholes like bristol west that their constiuents are anti-brexit is it?


----------



## Crispy (Mar 25, 2019)

The curve is very clearly flattening out. Million sigs/day has gone 2, 1.5, .9, .6.
I doubt it'll go much higher than 6.5m


----------



## LDC (Mar 25, 2019)

Supine said:


> I'd prefer to be with them than the rude foul mouthed brigade you seem to represent.


_
Terrible, so uncouth the mob. Not like us civilized Europhiles with our wine and nice cheese and polite witty banners._


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> _Terrible, so uncouth the mob. Not like us civilized Europhiles with our wine and nice cheese and polite witty banners._


And their tables outside cafes. Tastefully drugging their kids with wine.


----------



## LDC (Mar 25, 2019)

See you on the barricades to defend the Erasmus scheme and nice holidays in Tuscany.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2019)

editor said:


> People are still signing at a rate of 330 _per minute_ so it may well get up to that figure.


a great deal down on the 700 or 900 you were posting about the other day


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 25, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> It's not really going to be news to the MPS in shitholes like bristol west that their constituents are anti-brexit is it?



no - but it will have an impact on the calculations of the labour party nationally id have thought. i.e. anti-brexiteers in the shadow cabinet. similar in the tory party. One of the constant refrains is the whirlwind of rage that will be unleashed if brexit doesn't happen - the demo and petition undermine that.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> no - but it will have an impact on the calculations of the labour party nationally id have thought. i.e. anti-brexiteers in the shadow cabinet. similar in the tory party. One of the constant refrains is the whirlwind of rage that will be unleashed if brexit doesn't happen - the demo and petition undermine that.


Effectively that means a lib-dem or green vote in a few seats doesn't it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> One of the constant refrains is the whirlwind of rage that will be unleashed if brexit doesn't happen - the demo and petition undermine that.


tosh.

a great demonstration of people wanting to stay does not mean there are not a great many other people very much wanting to leave. and the manner of not leaving, if it comes to that, will count for a great deal. if there's another referendum and a 60/40 split then there will, i suggest, be less ire than if mps revoke article 50 on their own.

however, the greatest significance of all this is i think going to be felt over the next decade as parliament will no longer be trusted with the great affairs of state as it once was. i think this preludes a great unravelling of uk institutions. it may be that the monarchy becomes stronger as something untainted by the fuckwittery we've seen from parliament. it may be that when people look at the british revolution of the 21st century they start from cash for questions but see a great acceleration in the illegitimacy of parliament dating from the calling of the eu referendum and parliament's 2016-2019 failure to process it.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 25, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Effectively that means a lib-dem or green vote in a few seats doesn't it?



fuck knows what anything means any more! But then - neither do the mps. I suppose it might mean more people then they expected who voted leave would still vote labour if they come out for "Soft Deal to be confirmed by 2nd ref" - or would still vote tory if they go soft. as it were. 
I suppose the point is that the petition and demo will be used by remain mps to bolster their arguments within their respective parties.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> a great deal down on the 700 or 900 you were posting about the other day


But still a fucking huge amount - over 18,000 an hour. Very very few petitions have ever matched that level of interest, particularly many days after they've launched. It's now 320/minute, btw.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

Crispy said:


> The curve is very clearly flattening out. Million sigs/day has gone 2, 1.5, .9, .6.
> I doubt it'll go much higher than 6.5m


Yeah, 6.5m at the absolute most. Might be a revival if there's a no deal/erg panic mid week, but certainly losing momentum (pun probably intended).


----------



## skyscraper101 (Mar 25, 2019)

I'm getting lost in where we are currently at in this mess.

So as it stands - legally speaking - we are exiting with no deal on Friday? right?

As far as I can work out, we only have the April 12 technical delay if a deal is approved. And  Bercow has ruled out a third vote unless there is substantial changes - which there aren't, so we're on for no deal. Am I missing anything?


----------



## philosophical (Mar 25, 2019)

I wonder how the petition and the march lines up against politicians who mention people they talk to in the street or on the doorstep, or politicians like Nadim Zahawi who last week on television tried to validate a point by invoking a taxi driver who drove him to the studio.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tosh.
> 
> a great demonstration of people wanting to stay does not mean there are not a great many other people very much wanting to leave. and the manner of not leaving, if it comes to that, will count for a great deal. if there's another referendum and a 60/40 split then there will, i suggest, be less ire than if mps revoke article 50 on their own.



well no - it doesn't mean that. but it points to political pain and public anger whatever parliament decides to do. 



Pickman's model said:


> however, the greatest significance of all this is i think going to be felt over the next decade as parliament will no longer be trusted with the great affairs of state as it once was. i think this preludes a great unravelling of uk institutions. it may be that the monarchy becomes stronger as something untainted by the fuckwittery we've seen from parliament. it may be that when people look at the british revolution of the 21st century they start from cash for questions but see a great acceleration in the illegitimacy of parliament dating from the calling of the eu referendum and parliament's 2016-2019 failure to process it.



yeah - whatever happens - the british political institutions   will suffer considerable damage through a collapse of public trust and its clear dysfunctionality. Id go back to the Iraq War as the start of the process though.


----------



## killer b (Mar 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> I'm getting lost in where we are currently at in this mess.
> 
> So as it stands - legally speaking - we are exiting with no deal on Friday? right?
> 
> As far as I can work out, we only have the April 12 technical delay if a deal is approved. And  Bercow has ruled out a third vote unless there is substantial changes - which there aren't, so we're on for no deal. Am I missing anything?


no, it's extended to april 12 whatever, other later dates are possible depending on what happens (22nd May if May's deal passes, a much longer extension is possible if the govt agrees to participation in EU elections, etc)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 25, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> well no - it doesn't mean that. but it points to political pain and public anger whatever parliament decides to do.
> 
> 
> 
> yeah - whatever happens - the british political institutions   will suffer considerable damage through a collapse of public trust and its clear dysfunctionality. Id go back to the Iraq War as the start of the process though.


My lesson from the Iraq War is more or less the opposite. Despite the clear opposition to it, despite the exposing of the lies told to get into it, despite the clear evidence that it was a total disaster on every conceivable level whose consequences we are still seeing unfold, Blair was reelected and the system moves along very much as before.

Stuff like this was probably said after Suez as well.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Mar 25, 2019)

killer b said:


> no, it's extended to april 12 whatever, other later dates are possible depending on what happens (22nd May if May's deal passes, a much longer extension is possible if the govt agrees to participation in EU elections, etc)



OK, but I thought the law states we leave on March 29 - so to change that - legally speaking - they'd need to change/revoke the law? Did that happen and I missed it?


----------



## Patteran (Mar 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> May I contrast that with the way the BNP left the garden in front of Euston Station the day of their agm in 1993, when not even a dropped cigarette end was to be found when they departed.



Was that the day we were also penned-in outside the station, just across from them? Couple of instances of their late arrivals getting put into our pen by mistake with inevitable panicked consequences.


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> OK, but I thought the law states we leave on March 29 - so to change that - legally speaking - they'd need to change/revoke the law? Did that happen and I missed it?



Not yet, but no MP number problems in doing it


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 25, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> My lesson from the Iraq War is more or less the opposite. Despite the clear opposition to it, despite the exposing of the lies told to get into it, despite the clear evidence that it was a total disaster on every conceivable level whose consequences we are still seeing unfold, Blair was reelected and the system moves along very much as before.
> 
> Stuff like this was probably said after Suez as well.



It destroyed a lot of people's trust in the political system, not enough to stop blair winning again (the torys backed the war as well) - but it certainly took a bite out of their vote share - then came the expenses scandal, the banking crash and now brexit. oh - you can probably throw child sex abuse cover ups in there as well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Was that the day we were also penned-in outside the station, just across from them? Couple of instances of their late arrivals getting put into our pen by mistake with inevitable panicked consequences.


yeh that's the one


----------



## skyscraper101 (Mar 25, 2019)

gosub said:


> Not yet, but no MP number problems in doing it



OK so don't they need to do this pretty sharpish to get it changed by Friday? I thought laws need to be debated, thrown over to the Lords, get royal ascent etc etc which takes weeks. Or is there some special fast track option?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> well no - it doesn't mean that. but it points to political pain and public anger whatever parliament decides to do.


that's been clear for years


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> OK so don't they need to do this pretty sharpish to get it changed by Friday? I thought laws need to be debated, thrown over to the Lords, get royal ascent etc etc which takes weeks. Or is there some special fast track option?


it's possible to speed the normal parliamentary procedures from 33rpm to 78 for a brief period but it ages mps something chronic


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> OK so don't they need to do this pretty sharpish to get it changed by Friday? I thought laws need to be debated, thrown over to the Lords, get royal ascent etc etc which takes weeks. Or is there some special fast track option?


things can get done in a day, e.g. 1974 pta


----------



## teuchter (Mar 25, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm not at all saying it's come from Brexit, although I think some of that has been given a boost (or exposed by it again), it's more that this chance to talk about radical political ideas has been completely missed, or worse than missed, has pushed some who should know better into defending the enemy and its institutions.


Sometimes when no-one is doing what you want them to do it just means that not many people are persuaded by your arguments. But maybe it's just that they are stupid and 'should know better'.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> fuck knows what anything means any more! But then - neither do the mps. I suppose it might mean more people then they expected who voted leave would still vote labour if they come out for "Soft Deal to be confirmed by 2nd ref" - or would still vote tory if they go soft. as it were.
> I suppose the point is that the petition and demo will be used by remain mps to bolster their arguments within their respective parties.


I remember months ago posting about the possibility of cancelling a50 or going for a 2nd ref - essentially that it would require agency, significant players in one or both of the main parties to come out and front that up. Basically, that May and most of her cabinet and Corbyn too were never going to do that. Too much flak to be faced around overturning the will of the people. Perhaps 8 million votes would embolden them, but the one thing that would shift them back to the embrace of the EU would have been significant and consistent remain votes in the polls.  In a way that's where we are at, remain minded politicians not quite able to vote for a final brexit deal, but scared to be the public face of remain.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Mar 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> things can get done in a day, e.g. 1974 pta



OK thanks. 

This whole thing is so confusing. I feel like I need a diploma in parliamentary procedure to understand what the hell is happening.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> OK thanks.
> 
> This whole thing is so confusing. I feel like I need a diploma in parliamentary procedure to understand what the hell is happening.


so do mps. sadly they haven't realised they need one


----------



## teqniq (Mar 25, 2019)

Given the percentages in the referendum result and the dodgyness of the campaign particularly the pro-leave one, the 'will of the people' line is a fucking joke.


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> OK thanks.
> 
> This whole thing is so confusing. I feel like I need a diploma in parliamentary procedure to understand what the hell is happening.



or just of a helpful youtube...


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tosh.
> 
> a great demonstration of people wanting to stay does not mean there are not a great many other people very much wanting to leave. and the manner of not leaving, if it comes to that, will count for a great deal. if there's another referendum and a 60/40 split then there will, i suggest, be less ire than if mps revoke article 50 on their own.
> 
> however, the greatest significance of all this is i think going to be felt over the next decade as parliament will no longer be trusted with the great affairs of state as it once was. i think this preludes a great unravelling of uk institutions. it may be that the monarchy becomes stronger as something untainted by the fuckwittery we've seen from parliament. it may be that when people look at the british revolution of the 21st century they start from cash for questions but see a great acceleration in the illegitimacy of parliament dating from the calling of the eu referendum and parliament's 2016-2019 failure to process it.



You’d think the expenses scandal would have done that already, but despite this the Leave campaigns mostly advocated UK Parliamentary sovereignty above all. That changed only when it didn’t deliver what they (those Brexit elites) wanted.

So what’s new about this? Most people would criticise Parliament most days of the week and probably have since the 13th Century, while simultaneously enjoying the confection that the UK leads the world in democracy.

More likely is that this mess is muddled through and then Parliament doubles down on post crash asking the people woolyness. Farage’s march gives an indication of the likely interest in opposing Parliament from the Brexity side. It was a good crack kicking David Cameron’s backside, but most people won’t waste shoe leather on marching for Brexit because it’s not relevant enough to daily lives to make it pressing.


----------



## Winot (Mar 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> OK so don't they need to do this pretty sharpish to get it changed by Friday? I thought laws need to be debated, thrown over to the Lords, get royal ascent etc etc which takes weeks. Or is there some special fast track option?



All that is needed is to change the definition of 'exit day' and that can be done by Statutory Instrument.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Mar 25, 2019)

Winot said:


> All that is needed is to change the definition of 'exit day' and that can be done by Statutory Instrument.



OK, so in layman this is just an administrative update which doesn't use parliamentary time and could theoretically be done on Friday ahead of 11pm?


----------



## Winot (Mar 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> OK, so in layman this is just an administrative update which doesn't use parliamentary time and could theoretically be done on Friday ahead of 11pm?



Yes I think that's right.


----------



## xenon (Mar 25, 2019)

gosub said:


> Not yet, but no MP number problems in doing it


WTF are they dicking about at then. Why've they not done this first thing this morning before all this indicative vote crap.


----------



## eoin_k (Mar 25, 2019)

Not sure how the legislation is framed in this case, but statutory instruments generally give ministers limited powers to legislate, which might prevent parliament from implementing one without government support.


----------



## eoin_k (Mar 25, 2019)

Tory diehards might be able to push a hard brexit through a reluctant parliament by letting the clock keep running until its too late to implement anything else without appointing a new government that would have to emerge from a split in the Tory party and some political acrobatics on the opposition benches that seem equally unlikely.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 25, 2019)

xenon said:


> WTF are they dicking about at then. Why've they not done this first thing this morning before all this indicative vote crap.


The words 'piss-up' and 'brewery' spring to mind. Though there is of course May's tactic of deliberately running things up to the buffers to instil a sense of fear in the rabble to take into consideration.


----------



## Cid (Mar 25, 2019)

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018

Subsection (4), yeah, it can be amended by a minister. By regulation, which is a type of SI as I recall.


----------



## Cid (Mar 25, 2019)

I wonder whether she’d withhold changing it unless mv3 passes. She could I suppose.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Mar 25, 2019)

Cid said:


> European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018
> 
> Subsection (4), yeah, it can be amended by a minister. By regulation, which is a type of SI as I recall.



Ah ok, so for clarity


> (4)A Minister of the Crown may by regulations—
> 
> (a)*amend the definition of “exit day” in subsection* (1) to ensure that the day and time specified in the definition are the day and time that the Treaties are to cease to apply to the United Kingdom, and
> 
> (b)amend subsection (2) in consequence of any such amendment.



and subsection (2) says of course...


> (2)In this Act references to before, after or on exit day, or to beginning with exit day, are to be read as references to before, after or at *11.00 p.m. on 29 March 2019* or (as the case may be) to beginning with 11.00 p.m. on that day.



Now I'm wondering what "by regulations" means exactly.


----------



## eoin_k (Mar 25, 2019)

The whole direction of travel provides plenty of evidence that falling out of the EU without a deal may actually have become May's plan B.

See, for instances:

Brexit CIVIL WAR: Theresa May’s husband in FEUD with Downing Street staff



> The Prime Minister’s husband has sided with chief whip Julian Smith, party chairman Brandon Lewis and chief spin doctor Robbie Gibb, who have warned May that she will destroy the Tory party unless she secures a deal that can satisfy Eurosceptics.



 ETA: strike that. Fuck knows what's going on.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

Today I've seen snippets saying they might not do mv3 this week - and also that they won't be bound by indicative votes (Liam Fox was the latter). May also seems impervious to the attempts to get her to announce a resignation date.

Basically, she's back to 'please Arlene' - NO! - 'awww, please Arlene' - NO!	Rinse and Repeat.

Mother of Parliaments.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Today I've seen snippets saying they might not do mv3 this week - and also that they won't be bound by indicative votes (Liam Fox was the latter). May also seems impervious to the attempts to get her to announce a resignation date.
> 
> Basically, she's back to 'please Arlene' - NO! - 'awww, please Arlene' - NO!	Rinse and Repeat.
> 
> Mother of Parliaments.


abortion of a government


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 25, 2019)

Wilf said:


> May also seems impervious to the attempts to get her to announce a resignation date.



Good. I for one fully support our PM in her role. 

For 7 more days.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 25, 2019)

"Meanwhile, Foreign Office Minister Mark Field said he would support revoking Article 50 - the two year process for leaving the EU - if it became an option in the event Mrs May's deal was defeated and free votes granted for indicative votes."

Or "Govt Minister encourages Remainers to vote down PM's deal a third time" 

PM under pressure over Brexit vote


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 25, 2019)

editor said:


> But still a fucking huge amount - over 18,000 an hour. Very very few petitions have ever matched that level of interest, particularly many days after they've launched. It's now 320/minute, btw.


In what Laurie Penny or Graham Linehan or whoever will call _The Revolution of the Sensible _if it occurs to them_._


----------



## andysays (Mar 25, 2019)

xenon said:


> WTF are they dicking about at then. Why've they not done this first thing this morning before all this indicative vote crap.


Where would the fun be in doing it now rather than right at the very last minute?


----------



## andysays (Mar 25, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Today I've seen snippets saying they might not do mv3 this week - and also that they won't be bound by indicative votes (Liam Fox was the latter). May also seems impervious to the attempts to get her to announce a resignation date.
> 
> Basically, she's back to 'please Arlene' - NO! - 'awww, please Arlene' - NO!	Rinse and Repeat.
> 
> Mother of Parliaments.


The whole point of the indicative votes is to give an indication of how much support there is for various ideas, i.e. whether there's a majority for any of the possible measures, or whether none of them would get through.

As things stand, it would still require the government to actually put one of the measures forward as an actual bill for a binding vote to get it through (and MPs could theoretically vote for something in an indicative vote and then against in a binding vote, which would be interesting...)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 25, 2019)

Dunno who's leaking - bet it's a sieve at the moment - but Hunt apparently suggested to cabinet to hold MV3 on 10 April. 

Why so early? They've got two more days than that.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 25, 2019)

S☼I said:


> In what Laurie Penny or Graham Linehan or whoever will call _The Revolution of the Sensible _if it occurs to them_._



LP definitely will now if she still reads this so if she comes out with it we'll all know who to blame


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

andysays said:


> The whole point of the indicative votes is to give an indication of how much support there is for various ideas, i.e. whether there's a majority for any of the possible measures, or whether none of them would get through.
> 
> As things stand, it would still require the government to actually put one of the measures forward as an actual bill for a binding vote to get it through (and MPs could theoretically vote for something in an indicative vote and then against in a binding vote, which would be interesting...)


That's the point I've made in a couple of posts. Even the things you do when the old idea of cabinet controlling the process have failed, they have to play the alternatives through the cabinet. Something along the lines of sovereign parliament asks cabinet to allow it to be sovereign.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 25, 2019)

Dammit I was having such a productive day and May is doing a statement


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Dammit I was having such a productive day and May is doing a statement


In 20 years, everyone will remember where they were when she made that speech.

Purgatory.


----------



## chilango (Mar 25, 2019)

More can kicking from May


----------



## agricola (Mar 25, 2019)

chilango said:


> More can kicking from May



... whilst saying "we are now at the point of decision", no less.


----------



## andysays (Mar 25, 2019)

From the BBC


> Continuing her statement, Theresa May tells MPs that the government will oppose the amendment seeking to take control of the parliamentary agenda on Wednesday. She says this would be an "unwelcome precedent".
> However she says the government is committed to providing time for MPs to debate alternative options - with the procedure to be determined by Parliament. She adds that she is "sceptical" about such an approach, which she says has in the past produced "contradictory" outcomes or no outcome at all. The government cannot commit to implement the outcome of such votes, she adds.


It's still her ball and no one else is allowed to play with it...


----------



## Cid (Mar 25, 2019)

We can't have another vote, because I won't win.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 25, 2019)

Threatening to implement Direct Rule in Northern Ireland as well now. DUP not happy.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 25, 2019)

Has moved on from 'have to honour the referendum' to 'have to honour the tory manifesto'.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Has moved on from 'have to honour the referendum' to 'have to honour the tory manifesto'.


Yep, she goes from apologising for calling them all cunts last week to saying it doesn't matter what you vote for, it's up to me. How to Make Friends and Influence People.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Has moved on from 'have to honour the referendum' to 'have to honour the tory manifesto'.


 Yep:


> Labour’s* Rachel Reeves *asks May to confirm that, if she does not get her deal passed by 12 April, she will seek a longer extension of article 50.
> 
> May says she cannot say that she will accept anything that comes up in parliament. All MPs have a duty to deliver on the manifestos on which they were elected, she says.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 25, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yep, she goes from apologising for calling them all cunts last week to saying it doesn't matter what you vote for, it's up to me. How to Make Friends and Influence People.


Acting like she has that 100-strong majority she dreamed of in 2017.  Don't think she's ever got over it.


----------



## Cid (Mar 25, 2019)

Is she trying to scare the DUP onside? That'll definitely work out well for her.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 25, 2019)

Cid said:


> Is she trying to scare the DUP onside? That'll definitely work out well for her.



I don't think auld Arlene "whites of their eyes" Foster knows what fear is. Why would she? Her place in Heaven at the Rev Paisley's right hand has already been confirmed.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 25, 2019)

She appears to be flogging the dead horse whilst chanting bollocks to the lot of you, my beloved 17.4 million followers have got my back.


----------



## Gerry1time (Mar 25, 2019)

xenon said:


> WTF are they dicking about at then. Why've they not done this first thing this morning before all this indicative vote crap.


 
You know how it is when you get into work on a Monday morning, need to catch up with colleagues on what they thought of the match over the weekend, check your emails for a bit then spend some time getting your head back into whatever it is you were doing.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 25, 2019)

Watching the benches behind her melt away provides an interesting visual experience whilst watching this latest shitshow episode.


----------



## andysays (Mar 25, 2019)

Still some question about the legality of the A50 extension


> 16:11 *Cash questions legality of Article 50 extension*
> Another Brexit-supporting Tory MP, Sir Bill Cash, says he is concerned that "no lawful UK authority" has so far consented to the extension of the Article 50 process last week. The statutory instrument to legally change the date has now been tabled but has not yet been debated, he tells MPs.
> In reply, Theresa May says Parliament has "already supported" the decision to extend Article 50 - even if the date set by European leaders last week was different.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

Just read her response to some of the MPs questions (going on now). Just ploughing on, nothing changes - though she's now firmly established herself as the authentic voice of the voters, not parliament. And she's one charmless fucker to be trying that kind of move.


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 25, 2019)

more can-kicking. 

We'll crash out on April 12 and she'll blame "remoaner" MPs and an intransigent EU.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 25, 2019)

> May says she cannot say that she will accept anything that comes up in parliament. *All MPs have a duty to deliver on the manifestos on which they were elected, she says.*



Lol, this is new. Not sure it would stand too much scrutiny either, if one were to look at the manifesto promises vs actual policy record of May's party.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lol, this is new. Not sure it would stand too much scrutiny either, if one were to look at the manifesto promises vs actual policy record of May's party.


It might pose a few questions for Nick Clegg as well.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

What's annoying is that her antics towards parliament are making me look some kind of tony benn type weirdo, going on about the sovereignty of parliament.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 25, 2019)

Hey, what if Parliament decides, after Mays oerformance today, just to vote down the April 12th extension rather than prolonging this farce another fortnight?


----------



## FiFi (Mar 25, 2019)

Balbi said:


> Hey, what if Parliament decides, after Mays oerformance today, just to vote down the April 12th extension rather than prolonging this farce another fortnight?


It'll be a No-deal sooner rather than later. 
I'm beginning to wonder if this isnt just the best option now 


I'll let you know in 3 months if I can get my next prescription of asthma inhalers and migraine relievers


----------



## elbows (Mar 25, 2019)

Looks like its going to be a long evening.

Typo on the BBC live page:



> It mentions Commons Market 2.0, customs union and a public vote.



Theresas shit deal, six for a pound.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 25, 2019)

I'm also sympathetic to the view that if it's going to be no deal anyway, let's just get it over with. There is at present no plausible route to any outcome besides no deal, unless I've missed something, so why drag this shit out? At the very least a few years of blackouts, food shortages, rioting etc should finally convince the 'we voted out and that's all there is to it' brigade to shut the fuck up.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm also sympathetic to the view that if it's going to be no deal anyway, let's just get it over with. There is at present no plausible route to any outcome besides no deal, unless I've missed something, so why drag this shit out? At the very least a few years of blackouts, food shortages, rioting etc should finally convince the 'we voted out and that's all there is to it' brigade to shut the fuck up.


Turn that light out!


----------



## Poi E (Mar 25, 2019)

Can't. We got it from Sellafield to heat the place.


----------



## Poot (Mar 25, 2019)

Amendment (f) – Beckett

If the UK is seven days away from leaving without a deal, the government must move a motion within two sitting days (or recall Parliament) to vote on whether to leave without a deal or request an extension "to give time for Parliament to determine a different approach".

Different approach. Time. I think we're just waiting for the EU to laugh and say that time's up, really.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2019)

Balbi said:


> Hey, what if Parliament decides, after Mays oerformance today, just to vote down the April 12th extension rather than prolonging this farce another fortnight?


Panic on the streets of London


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Panic on the streets of London


Can we compare lists on which DJ we start the hangings with.


Steve Wright


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> At the very least a few years of blackouts, food shortages, rioting etc should finally convince the 'we voted out and that's all there is to it' brigade to shut the fuck up.



At the _very_ least, everything goes on being about the same as before and it's all a massive anticlimax.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 25, 2019)

Haven't read all the thread but has anyone noticed the humour in the date of April 12? Ship built in Northern Ireland founders under an English captain.


----------



## gosub (Mar 25, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> At the _very_ least, everything goes on being about the same as before and it's all a massive anticlimax.


At that point we will know voting is meangless.  At that point there cancel all elections and leave us in the strong and stable hands  of Mrs May FOREVER


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 25, 2019)

gosub said:


> Can we compare lists on which DJ we start the hangings with.
> 
> 
> Steve Wright


Good call


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 25, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Haven't read all the thread but has anyone noticed the humour in the date of April 12? Ship built in Northern Ireland founders under an English captain.



The ship to which you allude struck an iceberg on the 14th of April and sank in the early hours of the 15th.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 25, 2019)

So...the Grand Wizards then.


----------



## Winot (Mar 25, 2019)

Balbi said:


> Hey, what if Parliament decides, after Mays oerformance today, just to vote down the April 12th extension rather than prolonging this farce another fortnight?



We will still be in the EU but domestic law won’t be compatible with EU law so it’ll be messy.


----------



## not a trot (Mar 25, 2019)

I'd really like to know what exactly it is the ERG are supposed to be researching.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Mar 25, 2019)

I watched the debate earlier, it reminded me of when you go into the office with a hangover, can't actually do anything useful and so you shuffle papers and click randomly on a spreadsheet to make it look like you're busy. I can't honestly tell any of you anything of worth from it. Christ almighty what a shit show.


----------



## treelover (Mar 25, 2019)

One of the worst things about the Brexit crisis: Alistair Campbell back all over the screens.


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 25, 2019)

pinkmonkey said:


> I watched the debate earlier, it reminded me of when you go into the office with a hangover, can't actually do anything useful and so you shuffle papers and click randomly on a spreadsheet to make it look like you're busy. I can't honestly tell any of you anything of worth from it. Christ almighty what a shit show.


Watched quite a bit myself and they really do look like a bunch of individuals striving unsuccessfully to herd cats.OTOH has there ever been an issue that has split opinion in the country down the middle the way this one has?Opposed class-interests are doubtless involved but it does also just seem to be one of those occasions when there is right on both sides.To the extent that that is true it maybe that our institutions are doing as well as might be expected in very exceptional circumstances?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 25, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> Watched quite a bit myself and they really do look like a bunch of individuals striving unsuccessfully to herd cats.OTOH has there ever been an issue that has split opinion in the country down the middle the way this one has?Opposed class-interests are doubtless involved but it does also just seem to be one of those occasions when there is right on both sides.To the extent that that is true it maybe that our institutions are doing as well as might be expected in very exceptional circumstances?



Wrong 'uns on both sides.


----------



## CRI (Mar 25, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> So...the Grand Wizards then.


----------



## Winot (Mar 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> OK, so in layman this is just an administrative update which doesn't use parliamentary time and could theoretically be done on Friday ahead of 11pm?



Here you go:
Changing EU ‘exit day’: how might the Statutory Instrument be expedited through Parliament?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 25, 2019)

Indicative votes are on.


----------



## Cid (Mar 25, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Indicative votes are on.




Who voted.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 25, 2019)

E.U absolutely crossing their arms and saying "It's your time you're wasting" while looking meaningfully at the clock.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 25, 2019)

This must look so mad from the outside. One year, 51 weeks and 3 days after starting a two-year process and they've decided to have a debate about what kinds of things they want out of brexit.  They're like a bunch of Douglas Adams characters.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 25, 2019)

Meanwhile, in the HoC subsidised bars...


----------



## Cid (Mar 25, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This must look so mad from the outside. One year, 51 weeks and 3 days after starting a two-year process and they've decided to have a debate about what kinds of things they want out of brexit.  They're like a bunch of Douglas Adams characters.



To be fair this is exactly how I do everything, so I can finally relate to them.

To quote the aforementioned Adams: "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound as they fly by".


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 25, 2019)

Balbi said:


> Meanwhile, in the HoC subsidised bars...
> 
> View attachment 165673


Yep. That's exactly who I was thinking of.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 25, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. That's exactly who I was thinking of.



One can only imagine the kind of horrified amusement a sixty-nine year old Douglas Adams would have over Brexit, having nailed down an essentially British pathology of character decades ahead


----------



## agricola (Mar 25, 2019)

I wish Tory MPs would stop going on about this setting a precedent - what does that is a Government remaining in post despite losing votes time after time.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 25, 2019)

agricola said:


> I wish Tory MPs would stop going on about this setting a precedent - what does that is a Government remaining in post despite losing votes time after time.


Cabinet ministers voting against the government. Prime minister going on telly to say how terrible parliament is. We went a long way past precedent a long time ago...


----------



## Badgers (Mar 26, 2019)

Grand Wizards being a Harry Potter reference bantz?


----------



## Poi E (Mar 26, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> The ship to which you allude struck an iceberg on the 14th of April and sank in the early hours of the 15th.



Doh! Memory not serving correctly...


----------



## pinkmonkey (Mar 26, 2019)

Cid said:


> To be fair this is exactly how I do everything, so I can finally relate to them.
> 
> To quote the aforementioned Adams: "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound as they fly by".



I'm like this too but it turned out to be adhd - will entire governments respond to Ritalin or no?


----------



## tommers (Mar 26, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Grand Wizards being a Harry Potter reference bantz?


Yep. Definitely not the KKK.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 26, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Doh! Memory not serving correctly...



well it was a over a 100 years ago


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 26, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Grand Wizards being a Harry Potter reference bantz?



Roy Wood in fact, hits include _I wish it could be Brexit everyday _and _See my sterling dive._


----------



## Poi E (Mar 26, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> well it was a over a 100 years ago



And it wasn't even built in N Ireland as it didn't exist then.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 26, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Grand Wizards being a Harry Potter reference bantz?



Not even Rowling could put her foot in it that badly.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 26, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This must look so mad from the outside. One year, 51 weeks and 3 days after starting a two-year process and they've decided to have a debate about what kinds of things they want out of brexit.  They're like a bunch of Douglas Adams characters.



Only May's already ruled out several of the things parliament might decide they want. On account of they weren't in her manifesto at the election. The election where she lost her majority.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Only May's already ruled out several of the things parliament might decide they want.


Yep and as we know, once May has ruled something out it definitely never can happen ever.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 26, 2019)

gosub said:


> At that point we will know voting is mean[in]gless.



at _that _point?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2019)

Rees-Mogg about to turn for May's deal, it appears. Finally accepting that his fantasy no deal isn't going to happen.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 26, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Rees-Mogg about to turn for May's deal, it appears. Finally accepting that his fantasy no deal isn't going to happen.



Source? 

Doesn't seem much point as a lot of MP's who voted for May's deal now won't.


----------



## chilango (Mar 26, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Source?
> 
> Doesn't seem much point as a lot of MP's who voted for May's deal now won't.



There's a couple of snippets on the Bbc suggesting Mogg and Fabricant are going to back May's deal.

If they get the chance?

Maybe they can sense the no deal default slipping away.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Source?
> 
> Doesn't seem much point as a lot of MP's who voted for May's deal now won't.



A tweet, naturally.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 26, 2019)

No fucking spine, that one.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 26, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A tweet, naturally.




The Hounarable Member for the 19th century tweeting and podcasting. Hilarious.


----------



## extra dry (Mar 26, 2019)

Should mMay now step down? Snap elections


----------



## Crispy (Mar 26, 2019)

She's addressing the 1922 tomorrow at 5pm.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

extra dry said:


> Should mMay now step down? Snap elections


she should step up


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 26, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A tweet, naturally.




Gave this a quick listen for highlights and was struck by the phrase "Brexit will be a process and not an event". That phrase ring any bells for anyone?


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 26, 2019)

I feel this may be the end for Moggy. He got his bees swarming and is now telling them to calm down. Sorry, it doesn't happen like that. 

His cultists both at home and in the Media are in a frenzy and I would say have a 10% chance of accepting a no deal Brexit.

No chance mate. You left this too late.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 26, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I feel this may be the end for Moggy. He got his bees swarming and is now telling them to calm down. Sorry, it doesn't happen like that.
> 
> His cultists both at home and in the Media are in a frenzy and I would say have a 10% chance of accepting a no deal Brexit.
> 
> No chance mate. You left this too late.



What do you think will happen to him? He's not in the cabinet. Do you think he'll lose his seat?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> What do you think will happen to him? He's not in the cabinet. Do you think he'll lose his seat?


The phone will stop ringing.


----------



## chilango (Mar 26, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Gave this a quick listen for highlights and was struck by the phrase "Brexit will be a process and not an event". That phrase ring any bells for anyone?





chilango said:


> A revolution (in this context) is a process not an event.





chilango said:


> I'd argue that revolution is a process, not an event, and many (most?) fail to complete.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I feel this may be the end for Moggy. He got his bees swarming and is now telling them to calm down. Sorry, it doesn't happen like that.
> 
> His cultists both at home and in the Media are in a frenzy and I would say have a 10% chance of accepting a no deal Brexit.
> 
> No chance mate. You left this too late.


he'll have to retire to spend more time with his money


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 26, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> What do you think will happen to him? He's not in the cabinet. Do you think he'll lose his seat?



Oh no. Nothing like that. I just feel he's being rather enjoying his time in the limelight, and that's only happened becuase of his extreme position, plus there was a massive loon contingent backing him to be next Tory leader.

That support will all but disappear methinks.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 26, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The phone will stop ringing.





FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Oh no. Nothing like that. I just feel he's being rather enjoying his time in the limelight, and that's only happened becuase of his extreme position, plus there was a massive loon contingent backing him to be next Tory leader.
> 
> That support will all but disappear methinks.



I very much doubt it. I'm sure you'd both _like _him to disappear from the limelight but he won't. Anti-EU MP's are gonna be very much in demand. 

Also there definitely is not a massive anything contingent backing JRM to be next Tory leader. That would be - ahem - a FABRICation.


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2019)

Rees-Mogg is a raging bellend, but he's also an eloquent and convincing politician - he's going to be a fixture in the political life of the country for as long as he cares to be, sorry.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2019)

He barely featured in the political landscape until a couple of years ago. He can disappear again just as quickly.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 26, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> He barely featured in the political landscape until a couple of years ago. He can disappear again just as quickly.



Sure. But he won't.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> Rees-Mogg is a raging bellend, but he's also an eloquent and convincing politician - he's going to be a fixture in the political life of the country for as long as he cares to be, sorry.


 Well his decision to support Mays deal has already brought attacks on him from his former friends. His argument it was about 'principle' is now in Tatters.....  He is now the 'leader' of people who cave in at the last minute.


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2019)

So what? Which politician is left with clean underpants on this? Fuck all.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> So what? Which politician is left with clean underpants on this? Fuck all.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> So what? Which politician is left with clean underpants on this? Fuck all.



Who is he going to 'lead' now. He may well end up as the comic relief on numerous political programmes but his claim to be some kind of upstanding man with principle is gone. He is reduced to cimic turn worthy of ridicule. Unless of course the BBC try desperately to show him as a man of note...... And promote that image relentlessly.


----------



## andysays (Mar 26, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> Who is he going to 'lead' now. He may well end up as the comic relief on numerous political programmes but his claim to be some kind of upstanding man with principle is gone. He is reduced to cimic turn worthy of ridicule. Unless of course the BBC try desperately to show him as a man of note...... And promote that image relentlessly.


TBH, I think the idea that JRM ever had much claim to that position, or much support as a future Tory leader beyond a relative handful of loons has been much exaggerated.


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> his claim to be some kind of upstanding man with principle is gone.


Lots of people say exactly this of Jeremy Corbyn, who remains leader of the Labour Party and favourite to be next prime minister. 


Fedayn said:


> Unless of course the BBC try desperately to show him as a man of note...... And promote that image relentlessly.


perish the thought.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> Who is he going to 'lead' now. He may well end up as the comic relief on numerous political programmes but his claim to be some kind of upstanding man with principle is gone. He is reduced to cimic turn worthy of ridicule. Unless of course the BBC try desperately to show him as a man of note...... And promote that image relentlessly.


he'll lead the conga line at the erg summer bash


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> Lots of people say exactly this of Jeremy Corbyn, who remains leader of the Labour Party and favourite to be next prime minister.
> 
> perish the thought.



Well if you mean Mogg will be around as some kind of fool to be wheeled out whenever they want some bumbling Victorianisms to be spewed out you may be right. As a serious politician who claimed he would roar but in fact farted and followed through on himself when it came to the crunch yes you may be right.


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> Well if you mean Mogg will be around as some kind of fool to be wheeled out whenever they want some bumbling Victorianisms to be spewed out you may be right. As a serious politician who claimed he would roar but in fact farted and followed through on himself when it came to the crunch yes you may be right.


How many times has Boris Johnson humiliated himself, only 6 months later to find himself back in cabinet / being talked about as a serious contender for the tory party leadership? Remember Michael Gove's ratings after he knifed Johnson in the leadership election in 2016 - now he's the leader in waiting. The idea that any well connected right-wing Tory could be finished by any action they take right now is pretty fanciful when you look at what actually happens to well connected right-wing tories when they fuck up.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 26, 2019)

Suella Braverman talks to the Bruges Group about "cultural marxism".



> Braverman: "We are in a fight against cultural Marxism. We have a culture evolving from the far-left which is about snuffing out freedom of speech. We are putting everyone in cotton wool. That instinct for freedom, risk-telling and creativity is being killed."





Not that that's an anti-semitic far right conspiracy theory or anything.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> How many times has Boris Johnson humiliated himself, only 6 months later to find himself back in cabinet / being talked about as a serious contender for the tory party leadership? Remember Michael Gove's ratings after he knifed Johnson in the leadership election in 2016 - now he's the leader in waiting. The idea that any well connected right-wing Tory could be finished by any action they take right now is pretty fanciful when you look at what actually happens to well connected right-wing tories when they fuck up.


I blames the meejer.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> How many times has Boris Johnson humiliated himself, only 6 months later to find himself back in cabinet / being talked about as a serious contender for the tory party leadership? Remember Michael Gove's ratings after he knifed Johnson in the leadership election in 2016 - now he's the leader in waiting. The idea that any well connected right-wing Tory could be finished by any action they take right now is pretty fanciful when you look at what actually happens to well connected right-wing tories when they fuck up.



I think the difference is that Boris presents himself as that character deliberately, it is a subterfuge, he has the ability to be bumbling and be liked. Rees-Mogg is the 'new' Gove I hope, ie he made all the right noises and has now shat it. The DUP were the people he said he would take his line from, clearly he has gone back on that. 
Who is going to take his word for it any more. If you are right it is a perfect barometer of the utterly shite corrupt, venal, sociopathic political class we now have leading us.... Gove is the choice of the Tory ruum,p, now even rumpier given they are backing May....


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> utterly shite corrupt, venal, sociopathic political class


uh huh.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 26, 2019)

Desperate stuff.

Tory rebels asked by No 10 if they would back Brexit deal if May quit


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Suella Braverman talks to the Bruges Group about "cultural marxism".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This ones been getting quietly mainstreamed by twats for a while, either she's too thick to get what she's been swallowing (from where? could be fucking youtube alone these days) or knows exactly who she's whistling for. Judeobolshevism no less, ffs.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Mar 26, 2019)

I listened to the JRM podcast earlier. He sounds a lot more subdued than usual, which I can only think is a good thing.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 26, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> This ones been getting quietly mainstreamed by twats for a while, either she's too thick to get what she's been swallowing (from where? could be fucking youtube alone these days) or knows exactly who she's whistling for. Judeobolshevism no less, ffs.


Not the first time for the Bruges Group apparently - The 'Deeply Worrying' Far-Right Booklets Distributed at Tory Conference


----------



## Wilf (Mar 26, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Desperate stuff.
> 
> Tory rebels asked by No 10 if they would back Brexit deal if May quit


On the individual chats and offers to announce a departure date: if May says this at the 1922 committee, she's stuck with it. But if it remains a series of off the record chats with aides, she's quite capable of reneging on that - or at least trying to. Johnson and Mogg are a bit thick when it comes to this kind of stuff.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 26, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> Unless of course the BBC try desperately to show him as a man of note...... And promote that image relentlessly.



Think you've answered your own question mon.


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2019)

Ha yes "this thing could only happen with the complicity of our demonstrably complicit media!"


----------



## 8ball (Mar 26, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> ...he is reduced to cimic turn worthy of ridicule. Unless of course the BBC try desperately to show him as a man of note...... And promote that image relentlessly.



I don't get the Beeb these days, they are practically jumping up and down, waving and shouting "cooee" to Eye Of Sauron.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> I don't get the Beeb these days, they are practically jumping up and down, waving and shouting "cooee" to Eye Of Sauron.


It's balance. They invite left-wing extremist Jeremy Corbyn to speak occasionally, so they need a right-wing extremist to balance him up, with the sensible centrists like Theresa May in the middle.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 26, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> he'll have to retire to spend more time with his money



His wife will probably deliver forth a few more kids for nanny to raise.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> His wife will probably deliver forth a few more kids for nanny to raise.


It's his lifelong ambition to produce an Octavian.


----------



## Flavour (Mar 26, 2019)

Literally nothing has changed since MV2 though. Surely someone somewhere has a tiny bit of spine, no?

Seems not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> His wife will probably deliver forth a few more kids for nanny to raise.


yeh i'm sure, i wonder who the pa will be


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Mar 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> I don't get the Beeb these days, they are practically jumping up and down, waving and shouting "cooee" to Eye Of Sauron.


The chilling suspicion is that looking at what is happening in the rest of the world, they “know which way the wind is blowing“ and are acting out of medium term self interest...
The response for the majority of the ruling classes of the world to the coming existential and catastrophic crises around climate, resources and enforced migration is taking shape before our eyes.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2019)

Flavour said:


> Literally nothing has changed since MV2 though. Surely someone somewhere has a tiny bit of spine, no?
> 
> Seems not.


The DUP. 

No brain to speak of. Pure spine.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows


----------



## chilango (Mar 26, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows


 ...a single spark can start a prairie fire.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 26, 2019)

chilango said:


> ...a single spark can start a prairie fire.


It takes a village to raise a child.


----------



## not a trot (Mar 26, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh i'm sure, i wonder who the pa will be



The butler.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 26, 2019)

DUP have said they're perfectly happy to have a one year extension.


----------



## not a trot (Mar 26, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> I listened to the JRM podcast earlier. *He sounds a lot more subdued than usual, *which I can only think is a good thing.



Probably found  a pound coin on his walk to parliament, then discovered it was a dud one.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> DUP have said they're perfectly happy to have a one year extension.


This is the problem for anyone dealing with them. They are hard brexiters for whom brexit is far from a priority.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 26, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's his lifelong ambition to produce an Octavian.


We used to prefer Truevian, but we’ve reclaimed the term Octavian for ourselves, despite its increasing inaccuracy.

_Only the First Four and the Latest Five are real - excepting the War Doctor, who shall be allowed. So help me God._


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 26, 2019)

not a trot said:


> Probably found  a pound coin on his walk to parliament, then discovered it was a dud one.



Walk? I'd always assumed he travelled by sedan chair.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

not a trot said:


> Probably found  a pound coin on his walk to parliament, then discovered it was a dud one.


thought he had a ton of money on him and found out it'd fallen out a hole in his pocket


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 26, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It takes a village to raise a child.


We have to destroy Brexit in order to save it


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 26, 2019)

S☼I said:


> We have to destroy Brexit in order to save it


May your hands always be busy
May your feet always be swift
May you have a strong foundation
When the winds of changes shift


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 26, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> He barely featured in the political landscape until a couple of years ago. He can disappear again just as quickly.



Like a shade of Jeremy Corbyn.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> Like a shade of Jeremy Corbyn.


Difference being that the only people who've voted for Mogg are his tory-safe-seat tory constituents. Mogg doesn't really have anything grassroots going on, does he?


----------



## gosub (Mar 26, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It takes a village to raise a child.


No man is an island.


(The Isle of Man being the exception that proves the rule)


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 26, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It takes a village to raise a child.



But, who raises the village idiots in the house?


----------



## andysays (Mar 26, 2019)

Time for May to listen to the people



> BBC News website readers have been in touch with ideas on possible ways forward.
> Fiona Bullock: "If we end up with another referendum as has been indicated, then it should be made mandatory that everyone who is entitled to vote should do so. We will then get a true picture of what the country wants. Well hopefully."





> Peter Davis: "As Parliament cannot come to a conclusion on any vote, then why can’t the PM take the vote away from Parliament and just go to EU headquarters and sign the deal. Finish."
> Gerald Cooper: "I do not agree with Parliament's actions yesterday, nor a second referendum. If the people are to be given an opportunity to influence the outcome of Brexit, it should be in the form of a snap general election in order to provide one party or another with a mandate to govern."





> Roy Jenkinson: "My solution to the Brexit problem would be to cancel Article 50 and then allow Parliament the chance to find an acceptable process to leave the EU, then to re-apply... in say two years time with a firm idea of what we want."



Sorted...


----------



## FiFi (Mar 26, 2019)

andysays said:


> Time for May to listen to the people
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So the country is as confused as Parliment. 
Or do I mean the other way round?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 26, 2019)

Press are just beginning to announce details of how the indicative votes will work, with 'stages' (Monday being stage 2):
Brexit: DUP says one-year delay better than May's deal - live news

Of course we could go through the Blackpool Tower Ballroom round, the final run off and the Great British Menu round and May might still say fuck off that's not what my failed manifesto said. The intriguing possibility that May could ultimately whip her MPs to vote against the option the MPs have themselves chosen (parliamentary democracy, lol). And the even sadder possibility that they would do so.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 26, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Press are just beginning to announce details of how the indicative votes will work, with 'stages' (Monday being stage 2):
> Brexit: DUP says one-year delay better than May's deal - live news
> 
> Of course we could go through the Blackpool Tower Ballroom round, the final run off and the Great British Menu round and May might still say fuck off that's not what my failed manifesto said. The intriguing possibility that May could ultimately whip her MPs to vote against the option the MPs have themselves chosen (parliamentary democracy, lol). And the even sadder possibility that they would do so.



Just as long as they hold her in place for a few more days


----------



## Crispy (Mar 26, 2019)

Indicative votes tomorrow.

All motions have to be submitted by 4pm
Speaker chooses which ones get voted on
Debate till 7pm
Multiple choice ballot with YES/NO for each. No ranking.
Half an hour to vote. Not sure if secret or public ballot?
Results returned asap.

Further whittling down on Thursday


----------



## 8ball (Mar 26, 2019)

I’ve taken one days’ “Brexit holiday” and I’m lost as to what is happening now.

As in lost to what anyone *thinks* is happening...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> I’ve taken one days’ “Brexit holiday” and I’m lost as to what is happening now.
> 
> As in lost to what anyone *thinks* is happening...


We had joy we had fun we had seasons in the sun
But it's all gone to shit we'll be living in a pit


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> I’ve taken one days’ “Brexit holiday” and I’m lost as to what is happening now.
> 
> As in lost to what anyone *thinks* is happening...


Well, my local Tesco has been out of big bags of pasta for a couple of weeks now. So my best guess is that everyone here anyway *thinks* there’s going to be a pasta shortage.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, my local Tesco has been out of big bags of pasta for a couple of weeks now. So my best guess is that everyone here anyway *thinks* there’s going to be a pasta shortage.


We've a load of pasta just in case


----------



## 8ball (Mar 26, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, my local Tesco has been out of big bags of pasta for a couple of weeks now. So my best guess is that everyone here anyway *thinks* there’s going to be a pasta shortage.



Pfft!  We’ll just re-open the Cornish conchiglie mines.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> Pfft!  We’ll just re-open the Cornish conchiglie mines.


There's that warleggan body still floating about in t'mine


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Difference being that the only people who've voted for Mogg are his tory-safe-seat tory constituents. Mogg doesn't really have anything grassroots going on, does he?


He's consistently in the top few when grassroots are polled on who they'd vote for as leader. If there was a leadership election and he was on the ballot he'd stand an excellent chance of winning. Preventing that happening is one of the reasons May is still in place.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 26, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> There's that warleggan body still floating about in t'mine



Well, if it reawakens and gives us any shit we’ll have you on hand to summon The Old One for us.


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> I’ve taken one days’ “Brexit holiday” and I’m lost as to what is happening now.
> 
> As in lost to what anyone *thinks* is happening...


Yeah I kinda feel like that cos I had a day off yesterday to dubbin my walking boots. What's happening tonight? Are they voting on whether they will be voting or are they just saying what they will be voting on tomorrow?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> Well, if it reawakens and gives us any shit we’ll have you on hand to summon The Old One for us.


Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!


----------



## 8ball (Mar 26, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Yeah I kinda feel like that cos I had a day off yesterday to dubbin my walking boots. What's happening tonight? Are they voting on whether they will be voting or are they just saying what they will be voting on tomorrow?



A quick Google suggests “panicked voting on all manner of shit”.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> He's consistently in the top few when grassroots are polled on who they'd vote for as leader. If there was a leadership election and he was on the ballot he'd stand an excellent chance of winning. Preventing that happening is one of the reasons May is still in place.


I suspect he could win if he was to get through to the membership ballot, though it's hard to judge how anything would run in the circumstances under which such a ballot would take place. I also have a horrible feeling he would cope well with the inevitable attacks he'd face about his vile opinions on abortion after rape and the rest. He certainly wouldn't apologise or trim.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 26, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I suspect he could win if he was to get through to the membership ballot, though it's hard to judge how anything would run in the circumstances under which such a ballot would take place. I also have a horrible feeling he would cope well with the inevitable attacks he'd face about his vile opinions on abortion after rape and the rest. He certainly wouldn't apologise or trim.


Mogg the Merciless has become something of a celeb because he has someone managed to persuade the ordinary Leave voter that he is their man standing up for their interests. Fuck alone knows how since the man has "Privileged Upper Class Twat" stamped on his forehead but he has.
Outside of Brexit and (when please Good soon) this ends, I don't think he has any appeal  to many people outside a handful of crazies, I can't see him as Tory Party Leader, I think the people behind the curtains probably realise he puts off more voters than he attracts.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> He's consistently in the top few when grassroots are polled on who they'd vote for as leader. If there was a leadership election and he was on the ballot he'd stand an excellent chance of winning. Preventing that happening is one of the reasons May is still in place.


Sure I read that he's overtaken Johnson as the favourite after-dinner speaker for local parties.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 26, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Suella Braverman talks to the Bruges Group about "cultural marxism".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is starting to get a bit more traction: Conservative Brexiteer pushes far-right anti-Semitic conspiracy theory of 'cultural Marxism' used by Anders Breivik


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 26, 2019)

Used to see that phrase on Twitter from the more batshit Telegraph political commentators. Didn't realise it had those connotations though, just assumed it was a modern reds under the bed thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

She does look like a swivel-eyed loon


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 26, 2019)

I think JRM could _easily_ become leader of the conservatives. FFS, five years ago who'd have tipped JC as Labour leader? times change, and he's got everything a_ really tory_ tory could wish for. He'd get the backing of some old-schoolers like Fabricant too.

(sorry, that's a broad-brush and off-topic reply. though i can't help thinking a fudged semi-brexit gives him a better platform in the long term. Others too, but he's a front runner there IMO)


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> I think JRM could _easily_ become leader of the conservatives. FFS, five years ago who'd have tipped JC as Labour leader? times change, and he's got everything a_ really tory_ tory could wish for. He'd get the backing of some old-schoolers like Fabricant too.


He'll have to hurry if he's going to get fabricant's backing


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 26, 2019)

basically i meant that JRM is probably the number one choice of the tory eurosceptic ''old school'', Fabricant is just a good example of the type.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 26, 2019)

Fabricant always makes me think of something you might add in the case of a really grubby load of washing


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 26, 2019)

a housemate of mine at university campaigned for him for years, their families know each other and he's their local MP. i took to calling MF fabriCUNT at every opportunity and have never broken the habit.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 26, 2019)

A made-up person is what his name reminds me of sort of like a replicant only tackier.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Fabricant always makes me think of something you might add in the case of a really grubby load of washing


He's something you might put into your washing to get it grubby


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 26, 2019)

though he almost certainly owns the factory that made the machine, and is on the board of the powder manufacturer too


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 26, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Mogg the Merciless has become something of a celeb because he has someone managed to persuade the ordinary Leave voter that he is their man standing up for their interests. Fuck alone knows how since the man has "Privileged Upper Class Twat" stamped on his forehead but he has.
> Outside of Brexit and (when please Good soon) this ends, I don't think he has any appeal  to many people outside a handful of crazies, I can't see him as Tory Party Leader, I think the people behind the curtains probably realise he puts off more voters than he attracts.



I think he's mostly a celebrity because the media have decided to make him one. He's a classic example of an availability cascade, a phenomenon which amplifies the apparent importance of something that has little actual relevance to anyone.


----------



## agricola (Mar 26, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> basically i meant that JRM is probably the number one choice of the tory eurosceptic ''old school'', Fabricant is just a good example of the type.



Perhaps - though that depends how much he actually is their number one choice, rather than someone who (like Boris FWIW) the media have awarded a prominent role because he is such a spectacle.  I am not sure that rolling over (as he appears to be in the process of doing) for May's deal is going to do him many favours either, with the membership or even with his own faction.

Also for all his many faults, at least Corbyn could (in 2015 and 2016) reasonably pose as both representing change and not being responsible for the mess the party was in; Rees-Mogg is the very antithesis of change and has been involved in (and responsible for) this disaster from the beginning.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 26, 2019)

She's a bit remainy for me, but Marina Hyde has a few excellent lines here:
Get set for  Brexit: Indicative Day – the one where the Grand Wizards turn on each other | Marina Hyde



> draw near, true believers, for these are dark days for the ERG Brexit ultras. The Fellowship of the Ringpieces finds itself divided on their next move
> ….  Jacob Rees-Mogg (surely the last people who should be risking medicine shortages)….. Mark Francois, a sort of inflatable idiot who has spent the past few months bobbing around the broadcast studios like some remnant of the worst ever stag weekend ….. And all this after the week had started so well for the Brexiters, who were summoned to Chequers on Sunday in an episode we’ll call Shitheads Assemble All the big hitters were there, as well as Steve Baker, with Iain Duncan Smith bombing down in his open-top Morgan like they were giving out free girlfriends …. All photos of Boris Johnson now look like they were snatched through the windows of a security van taking a high profile offender from court to begin his sentence. And all his newspaper columns read like the letters that offender might write from prison to one of the 15 fiancees that tend to be acquired in these situations.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 26, 2019)

teqniq said:


> A made-up person is what his name reminds me of sort of like a replicant only tackier.



a kind of victorian android._ a most astonishing scientific marvel: the fabricant!_


----------



## teqniq (Mar 26, 2019)




----------



## Wilf (Mar 26, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> a kind of _*victorian android.* a most astonishing scientific marvel: the fabricant!_


The Indifference Engine.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2019)

Weeeelllll...

Revoke Article 50 petition to cancel Brexit to be debated by MPs next week, Parliament announces


----------



## Wilf (Mar 26, 2019)

Here's the Telegraph on Brexit betrayed. It's paywalled, but you can just sense the popping spleens that lurk beneath that merciful barrier:

Telegraph


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2019)

editor said:


> Weeeelllll...
> 
> Revoke Article 50 petition to cancel Brexit to be debated by MPs next week, Parliament announces


Parliament will debate this petition on 1 April

Yeh they'll take it really seriously


----------



## Wilf (Mar 26, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Parliament will debate this petition on 1 April
> 
> Yeh they'll take it really seriously


Along with the 'Free Bow Ties for Cats' one that, from memory, got 9.77 million.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2019)

editor said:


> Weeeelllll...
> 
> Revoke Article 50 petition to cancel Brexit to be debated by MPs next week, Parliament announces


I agree with the person earlier who said that while big it isn't big enough really. Biggest ever, but still less than a third bigger than the second-biggest, which was rather bizarrely to do with some rather obscure point about supermajorities. It needs to smash records to be noticed, and that means being probably twice the size that it is now.

Mind you, this explains that other result. First backed by disgruntled leave supporters, then disgruntled remain supporters. 



> "We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum."
> 
> Leave voter Oliver Healey claimed to have set up the petition before last year's June referendum - fearing a narrow Remain victory - before it became a de facto protest petition by Remain supporters once the 52-48 majority vote for Brexit was confirmed.



It's a pretty absurd petition,though, and its size rather undermines the idea of petitions. People will sign any old shit.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 26, 2019)

And with that in mind, have a look at this Facebook page. They’re really having a bad afternoon.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 26, 2019)

Comments under these posts (and several others) have had me all a-chuckle this afternoon.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 26, 2019)

Cid said:


> Is she trying to scare the DUP onside? That'll definitely work out well for her.



Just wanted to highlight this again following the DUP confirmation that they're totally fine with this dragging on another year.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 27, 2019)

16 amendments for the speaker to choose from:

Newstatesman Morning Call



> *Amendment A* has no direct implications for Brexit - it deplores the success of MPs in taking control of the order paper and seeks to undo that process. But that it also declines to back the withdrawal agreement and political declaration means it will struggle to get support outside the hard core of committed members of the European Research Group who have signed it - if Bercow even selects it for a vote. It has no chance of passing and isn't even well-placed to unite all supporters of Brexit.
> 
> *Amendment B *is would take the United Kingdom out of the European Union without a deal on 12 April. It's not going to pass and it is only useful for better informing Conservative Kremlinology, and for that reason we should all hope that John Bercow selects it. *
> 
> ...


----------



## killer b (Mar 27, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is starting to get a bit more traction: Conservative Brexiteer pushes far-right anti-Semitic conspiracy theory of 'cultural Marxism' used by Anders Breivik


it's been... _interesting_ seeing all the commentators who's understanding of the antisemitism in labour supporting twitter eggs is incredibly nuanced and in depth, somehow don't know about this far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory at all, or are spending the morning explaining how actually it isn't antisemitic, no really.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 27, 2019)

I still haven't seen any explanation of how we will know which MP's vote for what. 

Could they _actually _be trying to get away with secret votes?


----------



## Crispy (Mar 27, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I still haven't seen any explanation of how we will know which MP's vote for what.
> 
> Could they _actually _be trying to get away with secret votes?


confirmed - won't be a secret


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 27, 2019)

Crispy said:


> confirmed - won't be a secret



Got a link?


----------



## Crispy (Mar 27, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Got a link?


Definitely read it somewhere in the mountain of browser tabs I just closed


----------



## elbows (Mar 27, 2019)




----------



## Crispy (Mar 27, 2019)

Brexit indicative vote EXPLAINED: What does the indicative vote MEAN?
https://brexitcentral.com/indicative-votes-a-guide-to-what-mps-will-be-debating-today/

both articles say no secret ballot.
the ballot papers will be named for each MP


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 27, 2019)

Crispy said:


> 16 amendments for the speaker to choose from:
> 
> Newstatesman Morning Call



Anyone who made it to the end of that list without losing the plot completely is doing better than me.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 27, 2019)

Crispy said:


> Brexit indicative vote EXPLAINED: What does the indicative vote MEAN?
> https://brexitcentral.com/indicative-votes-a-guide-to-what-mps-will-be-debating-today/
> 
> both articles say no secret ballot.
> the ballot papers will be named for each MP



Thanks.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 27, 2019)

Crispy said:


> Brexit indicative vote EXPLAINED: What does the indicative vote MEAN?
> https://brexitcentral.com/indicative-votes-a-guide-to-what-mps-will-be-debating-today/
> 
> both articles say no secret ballot.
> the ballot papers will be named for each MP


The list of options is, well, exactly that - pretty much the different alternatives for leaving the EU (or not doing, or only part doing). After all the days spent discussing brexit, it's astonishing that they only get 1 day to, literally, discuss the options. The other feck knows how many days have been spent wasting time on may's failed plans.

I don't particularly care whether parliament takes charge, becomes more deliberative and the rest. But this shows how shite their own system is.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 27, 2019)

Lab about to whip for a 2nd ref.  With consequent resignations of leave minded shadow cabinet members.
Corbyn set to whip MPs to back public vote as frontbench threatens revolt

Edit: I've been very critical of Corbyn for not taking a clear position, not getting Labour more active etc.  Not sure if they thought sneaking this in at the last minute would restrict the rows that will break out?


----------



## marty21 (Mar 27, 2019)

So, JRM now favours the deal ?  he said something about half a loaf was better than no loaf at all . Now the Brexiters are turning on him - he's a traitor too now apparently - only seems 5 minutes ago that they wanted him as PM


----------



## 8ball (Mar 27, 2019)

marty21 said:


> So, JRM now favours the deal ?  he said something about half a loaf was better than no loaf at all . Now the Brexiters are turning on him - he's a traitor too now apparently - only seems 5 minutes ago that they wanted him as PM



This pleases me.


----------



## grit (Mar 27, 2019)

marty21 said:


> So, JRM now favours the deal ?  he said something about half a loaf was better than no loaf at all . Now the Brexiters are turning on him - he's a traitor too now apparently - only seems 5 minutes ago that they wanted him as PM



My understanding was that he said he would support the deal if the DUP did, knowing full well they won't so it was an empty statement.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 27, 2019)

grit said:


> My understanding was that he said he would support the deal if the DUP did, knowing full well they won't so it was an empty statement.



Would have been better to keep schtum and keep his support base in that case, wouldn't it?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 27, 2019)

R.Seymours blog post on the non coup had this dated reference that made me lol
  'but the DUP are sticking firmly to their paynawple-an-cheese-awn-a-stack diplomacy'


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 27, 2019)

My guess is Boris can get away with it more easily - though maybe he would like Mogg to be chosen for leader so he can "flower" again later ...


----------



## marty21 (Mar 27, 2019)

grit said:


> My understanding was that he said he would support the deal if the DUP did, knowing full well they won't so it was an empty statement.


True, but it does make him look weak even considering supporting the deal.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

marty21 said:


> So, JRM now favours the deal ?  he said something about half a loaf was better than no loaf at all . Now the Brexiters are turning on him - he's a traitor too now apparently - only seems 5 minutes ago that they wanted him as PM


Grytviken beckons


----------



## not a trot (Mar 27, 2019)

marty21 said:


> So, JRM now favours the deal ?  he said something about half a loaf was better than no loaf at all . Now the Brexiters are turning on him - he's a traitor too now apparently - only seems 5 minutes ago that they wanted him as PM


There's a rumour that this weekend instead of putting his clocks forward 1 hour, JRM is going to try and put his forward 150 years to catch up with the rest of us.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 27, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is starting to get a bit more traction: Conservative Brexiteer pushes far-right anti-Semitic conspiracy theory of 'cultural Marxism' used by Anders Breivik


You'd expect a far right commentator to claim that Cultural Marxism is at work, and they are usually complaining about immigrants being encouraged to come because of Cultural Marxism  - here we have the child of immigrants agreeing with them - it's batshit crazy


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

not a trot said:


> There's a rumour that this weekend instead of putting his clocks forward 1 hour, JRM is going to try and put his forward 150 years to catch up with the rest of us.


Ho ho

The problem isn't he has antediluvian politics, the problem is he has very modern  very right wing politics


----------



## belboid (Mar 27, 2019)

JRM now laying into fellow Tories for not acting like Etonians

#commontouch


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2019)

Bercow just explained members can't vote 'yes' & 'no' to the same option, and someone shouted out, 'unless they are in the cabinet', to much amusement in the house, including Bercow smiling & struggling not to laugh out loud.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 27, 2019)

They're not doing any preference ranking? That's weird. Surely they would get more information about what might actually get passed through the house if they did.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 27, 2019)

"John Bercow confirms that the ballot papers will be green. Earlier indications were that the ballot papers were pink."

In case anyone was worried like. 

MPs debate way forward for Brexit


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> "John Bercow confirms that the ballot papers will be green. Earlier indications were that the ballot papers were pink."
> 
> In case anyone was worried like.
> 
> MPs debate way forward for Brexit


They're not pink cos some light-fingered tealeaf nicked the last ream of pink out of the commons' stationery cupboard


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> They're not doing any preference ranking? That's weird. Surely they would get more information about what might actually get passed through the house if they did.


Half the tories can't count to five let alone nine so preference ranking out the window


----------



## Crispy (Mar 27, 2019)

So the options on the ballot will be:

*Amendment B (Baron) *Take the United Kingdom out of the European Union without a deal on 12 April. *
Amendment D (Boles)* Common Market 2.0 proposal, would seek to amend the political declaration to seek membership of the Efta's EEA pillar and a customs arrangement with the EU.
*Amendment H (Eustice) *Seek membership of the EEA's Efta pillar but wouldn't join a UK-wide customs union
*Amendment J (Clarke) *Keep the United Kingdom in a customs union.
*Amendment K (Corbyn) *Labour's official plan. It is a little harder than the Common Market 2.0 plan as it wouldn't include the free movement of people and would therefore have a slightly lower standard of market access.
*Amendment L (Cherry) *Revoke Article 50 if the United Kingdom gets to the deadline without a deal. 
*Amendment M (Beckett) *Subject any Brexit end state to a confirmatory public vote.
*Amendment O (Fysh) *ERG's “Managed no deal”: a series of mini-deals and a transition to a no deal Brexit.

nominating MPs have till 4 to make speaker take their option off the ballot.

PS: Bercow says still no reason for him to allow MV3


----------



## andysays (Mar 27, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> They're not doing any preference ranking? That's weird. Surely they would get more information about what might actually get passed through the house if they did.


It looks unlikely any of the proposals will actually gain majority support, so preference ranking is probably unnecessary.


----------



## gosub (Mar 27, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> "John Bercow confirms that the ballot papers will be green. Earlier indications were that the ballot papers were pink."
> 
> In case anyone was worried like.
> 
> ...




 Well there goes Mrs May's assurance of a red, white, and blue Brexit.


----------



## Cloo (Mar 27, 2019)

Crispy said:


> So the options on the ballot will be:
> 
> *Amendment B (Baron) *Take the United Kingdom out of the European Union without a deal on 12 April.
> *Amendment D (Boles)* Common Market 2.0 proposal, would seek to amend the political declaration to seek membership of the Efta's EEA pillar and a customs arrangement with the EU.
> ...


In other words, collectively as much use as a chocolate teapot


----------



## Crispy (Mar 27, 2019)

andysays said:


> It looks unlikely any of the proposals will actually gain majority support, so preference ranking is probably unnecessary.


That's exactly the sort of situation suited to STV.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

gosub said:


> Well there goes Mrs May's assurance of a red, white, and blue Brexit.


well remembered! I'd forgotten about that


----------



## Wilf (Mar 27, 2019)

Bercow still saying may can't introduce mv3.  Ha ha.


----------



## chilango (Mar 27, 2019)

What's this about ministers abstaining tonight?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 27, 2019)

Crispy said:


> That's exactly the sort of situation suited to STV.


exactly. STV reveals the least hated option. That's really the best anyone can hope for out of this mess.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 27, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> exactly. STV reveals the least hated option. That's really the best anyone can hope for out of this mess.


Yeah, I think they've screwed it up by not doing ranking  Maybe some clear winner will emerge, but likely not.

Can anyone enlightenment me, does a customs union get rid of the Irish border problem?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 27, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Yeah, I think they've screwed it up by not doing ranking  Maybe some clear winner will emerge, but likely not.
> 
> Can anyone enlightenment me, does a customs union get rid of the Irish border problem?



"Customs Union 2.0" or "Norway +" as they're euphemistically calling it is just staying in single market, so free movement of goods, services, labour and capital stays.


----------



## agricola (Mar 27, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Yeah, I think they've screwed it up by not doing ranking  Maybe some clear winner will emerge, but likely not.
> 
> Can anyone enlightenment me, does a customs union get rid of the Irish border problem?



It would depend on the nature of the union, but basically yes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Yeah, I think they've screwed it up by not doing ranking  Maybe some clear winner will emerge, but likely not.
> 
> Can anyone enlightenment me, does a customs union get rid of the Irish border problem?


No, the border will still be there


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 27, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Yeah, I think they've screwed it up by not doing ranking  Maybe some clear winner will emerge, but likely not.
> 
> Can anyone enlightenment me, does a customs union get rid of the Irish border problem?


At least two levels of vote: one for 'this please', plus as many as you like for 'I can live with that'. That might actually be indicative.


----------



## andysays (Mar 27, 2019)

Crispy said:


> That's exactly the sort of situation suited to STV.


The point is, there's no point finding out which is the most popular proposal if it can't actually command a majority of MPs in a vote in parliament, or do you think we're now reduced to simply going for the outcome which is the least unpopular among MPs,  regardless of whether a majority of them actually want it?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 27, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> "Customs Union 2.0" or "Norway +" as they're euphemistically calling it is just staying in single market, so free movement of goods, services, labour and capital stays.


But Labour's proposal isn't quite that. Not entirely clear what Labour's proposal is, tbh: end free movement of people but at some unspecified cost elsewhere.


----------



## Winot (Mar 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> What's this about ministers abstaining tonight?



It's a shoddy compromise that May and the Chief Whip have cobbled together to prevent ministerial resignations. In the normal course of events you'd expect the Government to whip against any motion which contradicted government policy. But if they do that Rudd et al. might walk.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 27, 2019)

andysays said:


> The point is, there's no point finding out which is the most popular proposal if it can't actually command a majority of MPs in a vote in parliament, or do you think we're now reduced to simply going for the outcome which is the least unpopular among MPs,  regardless of whether a majority of them actually want it?


It's been at that stage for ages already. So it's not a question of a majority getting its way. It's a question of a compromise being worked out that a majority can live with. Exactly the thing that May spent two years refusing to engage with. Ie politics.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 27, 2019)

andysays said:


> The point is, there's no point finding out which is the most popular proposal if it can't actually command a majority of MPs in a vote in parliament, or do you think we're now reduced to simply going for the outcome which is the least unpopular among MPs,  regardless of whether a majority of them actually want it?


Yes.


----------



## Supine (Mar 27, 2019)

Crispy said:


> So the options on the ballot will be:
> 
> *Amendment B (Baron) *Take the United Kingdom out of the European Union without a deal on 12 April.
> *Amendment D (Boles)* Common Market 2.0 proposal, would seek to amend the political declaration to seek membership of the Efta's EEA pillar and a customs arrangement with the EU.
> ...



No comedy spunking cock option?


----------



## andysays (Mar 27, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's been at that stage for ages already.


It's been at an impasse for ages, because May has prevented anyone from voting on anything other than her deal


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

andysays said:


> The point is, there's no point finding out which is the most popular proposal if it can't actually command a majority of MPs in a vote in parliament, or do you think we're now reduced to simply going for the outcome which is the least unpopular among MPs,  regardless of whether a majority of them actually want it?


They're reduced to scrabbling in the dirt for answers, the natural party of government my arse


----------



## Crispy (Mar 27, 2019)

Supine said:


> No comedy spunking cock option?


If an MP does vote spunking cock, does it get recorded in Hansard?


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 27, 2019)

andysays said:


> It's been at an impasse for ages, because May has prevented anyone from voting on anything other than her deal


Well, we'll see tonight, but I suspect if there was a solution that a majority in parliament could feel joyful about, it would have emerged already despite TM's stupid inability to actually discuss things. Whatever solution we get now will be cobbled together with sticking plaster and tears.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 27, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Bercow still saying may can't introduce mv3.  Ha ha.



So now we're going to have a long series of meaningless votes instead.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 27, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Well, we'll see tonight, but I suspect if there was a solution that a majority in parliament could feel joyful about it, it would have emerged already despite TM's stupid inability to actually discuss things. Whatever solution we get now will be cobbled together with sticking plaster and tears.


Yep, but if/when today's votes don't really solve anything, we just have yet another layer to add to the absurdity, given that it is painfully obvious that some kind of alternative vote system was needed. Just yet another


----------



## agricola (Mar 27, 2019)

Crispy said:


> If an MP does vote spunking cock, does it get recorded in Hansard?



Yes


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

8ball said:


> So now we're going to have a long series of meaningless votes instead.


That's what they call parliamentary democracy


----------



## andysays (Mar 27, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Well, we'll see tonight, but I suspect if there was a solution that a majority in parliament could feel joyful about, it would have emerged already despite TM's stupid inability to actually discuss things. Whatever solution we get now will be cobbled together with sticking plaster and tears.


Personally, I'm hoping the current process of tears, anguish and ministerial resignations resulting from MPs' collective inability to decide goes on for a bit longer before the end is reached


----------



## Supine (Mar 27, 2019)

andysays said:


> Personally, I'm hoping the current process of tears, anguish and ministerial resignations resulting from MPs' collective inability to decide goes on for a bit longer before the end is reached



Safe bet that it will go on. and on. and on.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 27, 2019)

andysays said:


> Personally, I'm hoping the current process of tears, anguish and ministerial resignations resulting from MPs' collective inability to decide goes on for a bit longer before the end is reached


I'm hoping for at least fist fights on the green benches. That's a _proper_ parliament.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2019)

I guess most MPs have already decided which way they are going to vote on each option, because there's not many of the buggers actually in the house ATM.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 27, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'm hoping for at least fist fights on the green benches. That's a _proper_ parliament.



Ah, those heady mace-swinging days...

(what is it for anyway?)


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 27, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I guess most MPs have already decided which way they are going to vote on each option, because there's not many of the buggers actually in the house ATM.


They’re not in the _Chamber_, but they may still be in the House.

They could of course be in one of parliament’s pubs, bars or eateries.


----------



## Supine (Mar 27, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'm hoping for at least fist fights on the green benches. That's a _proper_ parliament.



I think we need the Queen to ride in on a massive white stallion, swinging a sword and shouting 'disband you bunch of muppets'


----------



## Supine (Mar 27, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I guess most MPs have already decided which way they are going to vote on each option, because there's not many of the buggers actually in the house ATM.



I think the 1922 committee is meeting. The others will be in the bar.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 27, 2019)

8ball said:


> (what is it for anyway?)


Soups, sauces and fish dishes.


----------



## andysays (Mar 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> They’re not in the _Chamber_, but they may still be in the House.
> 
> They could of course be in one of parliament’s pubs, bars or eateries.


isn't May about to address the 1922 committee?

A few of them might be there, I guess...


----------



## 8ball (Mar 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Soups, sauces and fish dishes.



And spraying in the face of burglars, I understand.


----------



## Winot (Mar 27, 2019)

She's said she's standing down once Brexit delivered (apparently).


----------



## belboid (Mar 27, 2019)

May agrees to quit once an agreement is passed, and before the next set of negotiations.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 27, 2019)

Winot said:


> She's said she's standing down once Brexit delivered (apparently).


Oh fuck, are we never going to be rid of her then?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2019)

Yeah, the 1922 committee is indeed meeting, so that explains one side of the chamber being empty.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 27, 2019)

Aside from everything else, I really really hope May does not get to stand down on her own terms.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 27, 2019)

May entered the 1922 committee rooms to only moderate banging! 
BBC News.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 27, 2019)

Not sure who she's trying to persuade with this move. Is it that the ERG will vote for the WA if she goes because they think they can get one of their people in as leader for the rest of the negotiations?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 27, 2019)

So, she's only got to persuade Bercow to let her have her vote and she (probably) wins it now.


----------



## killer b (Mar 27, 2019)

I dunno. It might convince a few nutters over, but harden the opposition on the other side - no-one imagines her replacement is going to be anything but a hardliner.


----------



## maomao (Mar 27, 2019)

More of a threat to stay than a promise to go.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 27, 2019)

"Do you want me to leave?"

"Yes."

"How much do you want me to leave?"

"Lots."

"Would you eat this turd if it would get rid of me?"

"Erm..."


----------



## agricola (Mar 27, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Not sure who she's trying to persuade with this move. Is it that the ERG will vote for the WA if she goes because they think they can get one of their people in as leader for the rest of the negotiations?



It is probably the logical outcome of her truly awful attempt to get them to vote for her deal whilst refusing to threaten the one thing (revoking Article 50 and the damage that would do to the party) that could actually force them into doing so, and which would be largely consequence-free for her.


----------



## Winot (Mar 27, 2019)

Actually if the Guardian's report of her actual words are correct then they sound quite weaselly:

_"This has been a testing time for our country and our party. We’re nearly there. We’re almost ready to start a new chapter and build that brighter future.

But before we can do that, we have to finish the job in hand. As I say, I don’t tour the bars and engage in the gossip – but I do make time to speak to colleagues, and I have a great team in the whips’ office. I also have two excellent PPSs._

_And I have heard very clearly the mood of the parliamentary party. I know there is a desire for a new approach – and new leadership – in the second phase of the Brexit negotiations – and I won’t stand in the way of that._

_I know some people are worried that if you vote for the withdrawal agreement, I will take that as a mandate to rush on into phase two without the debate we need to have. I won’t – I hear what you are saying._

_But we need to get the deal through and deliver Brexit ..._

_I am prepared to leave this job earlier than I intended in order to do what is right for our country and our party._

_I ask everyone in this room to back the deal so we can complete our historic duty – to deliver on the decision of the British people and leave the European Union with a smooth and orderly exit."_


----------



## Wilf (Mar 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> I dunno. It might convince a few nutters over, but harden the opposition on the other side - no-one imagines her replacement is going to be anything but a hardliner.


Possibly. I can't remember where we are up to process wise. Presumably the indicative thing will produce nothing conclusive tonight. Her best chance of getting mv3 through would be if that happened soon afterwards. If we get into indicative vote 2 _before_ mv3, and one of the remain options starts to look strong, that would possibly empower the 'left' of her vile party to vote against mv3. That's all assuming she's allowed to propose mv3 of course. Fine stuff!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 27, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Possibly. I can't remember where we are up to process wise. Presumably the indicative thing will produce nothing conclusive tonight. Her best chance of getting mv3 through would be if that happened soon afterwards. If we get into indicative vote 2 _before_ mv3, and one of the remain options starts to look strong, that would possibly empower the 'left' of her vile party to vote against mv3. That's all assuming she's allowed to propose mv3 of course. Fine stuff!



Yeah I suspect there's a real danger for her that Remain Tories now abandon her deal, with any pretence of her authority completely gone. 

Rees-Mogg saying now he'll only vote for her deal if DUP abstain by the way. Fat chance.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2019)

Unconfirmed reports on Sky that Bojo will now back May's deal.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 27, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Rees-Mogg saying now he'll only vote for her deal if DUP abstain by the way. Fat chance.


Because they are “the guardians of the union of the United Kingdom” he is quoted as saying.  

If anyone was in any doubt as to whether the union was worth opposing, then that has surely assuaged those doubts.


----------



## tommers (Mar 27, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Unconfirmed reports on Sky that Bojo will now back May's deal.


They're not doing themselves any favours, laying it all out openly for everybody to see.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 27, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Unconfirmed reports on Sky that Bojo will now back May's deal.


Pure positioning on his part. 'Look at me, I'm really brexity, but put the country first' type stuff. We shouldn't forget that it was a toss up for him whether to support remain or Brexit at the start of the 2016 campaign.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 27, 2019)

so how long before election+new ref (grown up countries can do both at the same time )? At some point our elected representatives might remember the elected part.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 27, 2019)

Reports that the various erg idiots are falling into line as they emerge from their chimps tea party (though that's me getting drawn into the febrile reporting cycle - we'll see what happens in due course). So, they probably just need the dup and Bercow.

edit: if they really do have the votes in the bag all those planning to vote for mv3 will presumably vote against most or all of the indicative votes.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2019)

C-4 News - the PM has offered to step down straight after Brexit, so the 22nd of May could actually be the end of May.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 27, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> C-4 News - the PM has offered to step down straight after Brexit, so the 22nd of May could actually be the end of May.



She's apparently keen to be in office longer than Gordon Brown was - which won't happen until the 25th of May...


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 27, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Unconfirmed reports on Sky that Bojo will now back May's deal.



Ugh, could we leave off the cutesy nicknames for that toxic cunt on here?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 27, 2019)

Because why? ETA why longer than Brown?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 27, 2019)

Thankfully we can now see that every single one of them has endured this for the good of the country.
The country in this case keeping their seat on the gravy train.
Not good VFM in my opinion.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 27, 2019)

So what's her bung to Bercow going to be? A knighthood?


----------



## Argonia (Mar 27, 2019)

What time are the voting results coming in tonight? I want some kip.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 27, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Because why? ETA why longer than Brown?



The Duke of Wellington held the office for a day longer than Brown. Why not aim for that?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 27, 2019)

Argonia said:


> What time are the voting results coming in tonight? I want some kip.



About 9


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Ugh, could we leave off the cutesy nicknames for that toxic cunt on here?



I've never considered it as a cutesy nickname, but an insult, labeling the twat as Bojo the clown.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 27, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I've never considered it as a cutesy nickname, but an insult, labeling the twat as Bojo the clown.
> 
> View attachment 165798


If anything his status as a clown is what made him popular. That's why he played it up all the time.

I think 'overt racist and entitled ruling class arsehole Boris Johnson' more clearly says what he is. Not as snappy I grant you.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> If anything his status as a clown is what made him popular. That's why he played it up all the time.



Agreed, but it was long ago turned around on him, and he became a total laughing stock when it comes to serious politics, even amongst Tory members, someone posted a poll earlier on here, showing he's one of the most unpopular possible leaders of the party, he's a spent force.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 27, 2019)

I just hope people remember, if he's on any kind of nationwide ballot paper, that as Winston Wolf says in _Pulp Fiction_, "Just because you are a character, doesn't mean you HAVE character".


----------



## agricola (Mar 27, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> The Duke of Wellington held the office for a day longer than Brown. Why not aim for that?



At least that way we might have another "_Who?  Who?_" government, as well as a couple of duels.


----------



## CRI (Mar 27, 2019)

Ah bless, these guys had a lunch date today.  Wonder what they talked about?


----------



## Gerry1time (Mar 27, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> So what's her bung to Bercow going to be? A knighthood?



The speaker automatically gets a peerage when they stop being speaker anyway, long standing tradition.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 27, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Lab about to whip for a 2nd ref.  With consequent resignations of leave minded shadow cabinet members.
> Corbyn set to whip MPs to back public vote as frontbench threatens revolt
> 
> Edit: I've been very critical of Corbyn for not taking a clear position, not getting Labour more active etc.  Not sure if they thought sneaking this in at the last minute would restrict the rows that will break out?


Seems like a daft decision to me. No need to whip any on any of these indicative votes, majority of MPs will follow party line and you can leave the argument for another day (and if 2nd ref doesn't get the numbers then that thorn can be avoided)

In a strange way I think the best thing for Labour might be if May did get her deal through. They can then respond in a united fashion that the deal is nothing to do with them while avoiding the headache of 2nd referendums or anything else.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 27, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> About 9


Vicki Young on the BBC just said they might take longer because so complicated


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Vicki Young on the BBC just said they might take longer because so complicated


they've sent out for people who can count


----------



## Rosemary Jest (Mar 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they've sent out for people who aren't cunts.



Might take longer than anticipated...


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they've sent out for people who can count



Is it the Commons Clerks who are counting this? It surely can't be the usual four MPs as tellers on a multi-choice paper vote?


----------



## belboid (Mar 27, 2019)

DUP not supporting May's deal.  

So that's definitely dead then.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 27, 2019)

belboid said:


> DUP not supporting May's deal.
> 
> So that's definitely dead then.



Snowball's chance in hell


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2019)

belboid said:


> DUP not supporting May's deal.
> 
> So that's definitely dead then.



Not supporting it, but the statement falls short of actually saying they will be voting against it.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 27, 2019)

belboid said:


> DUP not supporting May's deal.
> 
> So that's definitely dead then.



Nice to see someone can stick to their aims and not flip flopping like a stranded flounder.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 27, 2019)

And JRM shit his pants in front of the entire country. Aww bless. Wanker.


----------



## Poot (Mar 27, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Not supporting it, but the statement falls short of actually saying they will be voting against it.


They won't abstain either, apparently.


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 27, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Not supporting it, but the statement falls short of actually saying they will be voting against it.


Whereas Mogg said on C4 news that he would vote reluctantly for May's deal iff the DUP were in favour or neutral.


----------



## spitfire (Mar 27, 2019)

That's a no then.


----------



## not a trot (Mar 27, 2019)

Let Larry the cat have the final say. Couldn't do any worse.


----------



## Rosemary Jest (Mar 27, 2019)

When the DUP are talking a bit of sense, you know the world truly has gone fucking mad.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 27, 2019)

Rosemary Jest said:


> When the DUP are talking a bit of sense, you know the world truly has gone fucking mad.



Did we all - all of us who are here - do something wrong and this is actually purgatory?


----------



## Rosemary Jest (Mar 27, 2019)

I'm just waiting for Theresa May to pull off her mask, revealing no other than Jeremy Beadle.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

Rosemary Jest said:


> I'm just waiting for Theresa May to pull off her mask, revealing no other than Jeremy Beadle.


Check her hands to see if she is really jb


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Did we all - all of us who are here - do something wrong and this is actually purgatory?


Fuck armageddon this is hell


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2019)

Looks like the votes are going to be declared in the next few minutes.


----------



## magneze (Mar 27, 2019)

No to everything


----------



## Crispy (Mar 27, 2019)

Chaos Reigns! Hail Eris!


----------



## Argonia (Mar 27, 2019)

No to everything. Fucking hell.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 27, 2019)

magneze said:


> No to everything


PMSL


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 27, 2019)

Fuck. Me.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2019)

As expected, TBH.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 27, 2019)

Ken Clarke's motion looking closest to getting over the line.


----------



## chilango (Mar 27, 2019)




----------



## magneze (Mar 27, 2019)

Yep, although I think Margaret Becketts was also close?


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 27, 2019)

What a fucking farce. Does look like some kind of customs union will be the eventual result though eh....


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 27, 2019)

So, yet again we hurtle towards the cliff.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 27, 2019)

Also makes it clear that getting a 2nd referendum through would be very difficult


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 27, 2019)

magneze said:


> Yep, although I think Margaret Becketts was also close?


27. But everyone who would have wanted a 2nd referendum would have vote for it.

In contrast I can see Clarke's motion picking up support from options that have been eliminated.


----------



## magneze (Mar 27, 2019)

Hmm actually not really, around 30.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 27, 2019)

Crash out through incompetence or blink at the last second and revoke. Can’t see how the hell anything else can happen really.


----------



## chilango (Mar 27, 2019)

General Election?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2019)

The results in full...



> B) No deal - moved by Tory MP John Baron. Yes 160 - No 400
> 
> D) Common market 2.0 - moved by Tory MP Nick Boles Yes 188 - No 283
> 
> ...


----------



## Voley (Mar 27, 2019)

magneze said:


> No to everything


A maxim to live by.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> General Election?


That would almost certainly return another hung parliament


----------



## Cid (Mar 27, 2019)




----------



## fishfinger (Mar 27, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> That would almost certainly return another hung parliament


Hang them all now to save time.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 27, 2019)

This is fine...


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 27, 2019)

"There's no reason to become alarmed ... by the way, is there anyone here who knows how to run a country?"


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 27, 2019)

"Sweet Felicity Arkwright"


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 27, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The results in full...



what a fucking mess. answer one simple question and look how many more pop up.
_''how shall we fuck off, o lord?''_


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> "There's no reason to become alarmed ... by the way, is there anyone here who knows how to run a country?"
> 
> View attachment 165815


There's no one in the commons knows how to run a bath let alone a country


----------



## Patteran (Mar 27, 2019)

‘It’s us or chaos’
‘Chaos, chaos!’
‘Doesn’t matter, that’s us, too’


----------



## Cloo (Mar 27, 2019)

Well, they fucked that then.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 27, 2019)

not a trot said:


> Let Larry the cat have the final say. Couldn't do any worse.



firm and fluffy leadership in the national interest


----------



## Voley (Mar 27, 2019)

'Do you want a hard Brexit?'
'No.'
'Soft Brexit?'
'No.'
'No Brexit?'
'No.'
'Cup of tea?'
'No.'
'Would you like to say 'No' again?'
'No.'


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 27, 2019)

Voley said:


> 'Do you want a hard Brexit?'
> 'No.'
> 'Soft Brexit?'
> 'No.'
> ...


----------



## Argonia (Mar 27, 2019)

Are they fucking doing it again on Momday?


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 27, 2019)

I suppose it was always likely this would happen, we'll have to see if anything gets a majority on Monday  

Fucking hilariously lamentable though


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 27, 2019)

From Twitter:

“So, if I understand this correctly, Theresa May doesn’t even have the support to resign successfully”


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 27, 2019)

Parliament has taken control then. 

Up against the wall with every single one of them


----------



## Cloo (Mar 27, 2019)

Pleasantly surprised to see my local MP Mike Freer voted Revoke this evening - mainly in that he has always voted with the Government, I'm fairly sure he is a remainer at heart. Have emailed him to say thanks for acting on behalf of his constituents and to urge him to continue to do anything he can to improve the situation.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 27, 2019)




----------



## Wilf (Mar 28, 2019)

What a bunch of dribbling shit monkeys.

Actually, their failure to agree anything, marginally increases May's chances of getting mv3 through (I think).
Likely outcomes now, in order:
1. Dup get another bribe and come on board about teatime on Friday, maybot3 gets through
2. Above fails and something along the lines of the 2.0/clark/customs things ultimately gets through
3. General election
4. No deal
5. withdraw a50


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

It was obvious this was going to happen.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 28, 2019)

So if the same set of options were offered to the British public would they have done anything other than vote no to them all, perhaps by a smallish margin on the same ones?


----------



## Humberto (Mar 28, 2019)

A cynical part of me suspects it's easier and safer to be against something than for it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 28, 2019)

Humberto said:


> A cynical part of me suspects it's easier and safer to be against something than for it.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 28, 2019)

It is kind of their job. They take oaths. But they don't even come up with solutions; such is the debased matter-of-fact shitness they have all (as well as outside factors/influencers) dragged themselves down towards. I mean, there is always another week, numbers can and will I believe (for what that is worth) change.


----------



## andysays (Mar 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep, but if/when today's votes don't really solve anything, we just have yet another layer to add to the absurdity, given that it is painfully obvious that some kind of alternative vote system was needed. Just yet another



This question may have been addressed by now, but if it hasn't can you or anyone else explain how any kind of alternative vote system might break the parliamentary deadlock?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 28, 2019)




----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 28, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I suspect he could win if he was to get through to the membership ballot, though it's hard to judge how anything would run in the circumstances under which such a ballot would take place. I also have a horrible feeling he would cope well with the inevitable attacks he'd face about his vile opinions on abortion after rape and the rest. He certainly wouldn't apologise or trim.



There’s a big enough section of the public that would lap up the novelty, think ‘time for something a bit different, someone who isn’t like the rest of them, not afraid to say what he wants’ or be a bit ‘LOL, Harry Potter’ about it all, see how Johnson got to be London Mayor twice. They’ll not pick at the detail of shitty things he’s said or stands for.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 28, 2019)

Results not really surprising, Tory loyalists were always going to vote no to everything or abstain because they don’t support the process and want May’s deal (or at least have to appear that way with a non-secret ballot). It’s what the results would be if May’s deal was taken completely off the table that matter. It’ll only resolve if/when this happens, by all rights her deal (and her) should have already been put in the bin to give a clean slate for another option to move forward. Maybe we’ll be in that place once she’s had the last desperate roll of the dice later this week, although the strategy still seems to be to try and run down the clock and prevent room for an alternative.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 28, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Results not really surprising, Tory loyalists were always going to vote no to everything or abstain


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

andysays said:


> This question may have been addressed by now, but if it hasn't can you or anyone else explain how any kind of alternative vote system might break the parliamentary deadlock?


Needs to go to a referendum now. Put the four most popular (least unpopular?) options from last night to a people’s vote and vote in preference order.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Needs to go to a referendum. Put the four most popular (least unpopular?) options from last night to a people’s vote and vote in preference order.


Too many of the options last night were too similar. If it’s to be put to the public (and I’m not saying it shouldn’t be), the options need to be distinctive.


----------



## chilango (Mar 28, 2019)

Four Options for such a referendum:


No Deal Brexit
May's Deal
Whatever shit name they're bandying around for the customs union type deal.
No Brexit

Won't happen. No Brexit would win.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2019)

chilango said:


> Four Options for such a referendum:
> 
> 
> No Deal Brexit
> ...


Put may's deal against remain and remain would win


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 28, 2019)

chilango said:


> Won't happen. No Brexit would win.


Which is the aim of the people's vote brigade of course.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 28, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Put may's deal against remain and remain would win


Put any Brexit against remain and remain would win - there seem to be enough leavers who absolutely don’t want the wrong sort of leave, whereas there is only one remain proposed.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 28, 2019)

I'm wondering how many ways there are left in which this could become more of a farce - maybe the Queen will abdicate to avoid being drawn into this fuckery.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> I'm wondering how many ways there are left in which this could become more of a farce - maybe the Queen will abdicate to avoid being drawn into this fuckery.


She will order her champion, auld colonel sir barnaby fotherington-blythe, to start beheading mps until a resolution can be found

See Erskine May, page 660, for precedents


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Too many of the options last night were too similar. If it’s to be put to the public (and I’m not saying it shouldn’t be), the options need to be distinctive.


But half of those options got knocked out last night. If we say, for example, take the four options that were defeated by the smallest number of votes (not perfect because there were loads of abstentions but fuck it, something needs to be done), it would be:

Leave with customs union (Clarke): defeated by 8
Labour alternative (Steptoe): defeated by 70
CM2 (Boles): defeated by 95
Revoke (Cherry): defeated by 109

You'd have to also include May's deal but at least that gives some kind of legitimacy to the questions.

Put those 5 to a referendum in preference order. I reckon May's deal might well win.


----------



## chilango (Mar 28, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Which is the aim of the people's vote brigade of course.



Of course.

I'm still not sure a straight "leave vs. remain" re-vote would result in a remain win. I think leave would still edge it. But I doubt that'd be the question in a so-called people's vote now.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

chilango said:


> Of course.
> 
> I'm still not sure a straight "leave vs. remain" re-vote would result in a remain win. I think leave would still edge it. But I doubt that'd be the question in a so-called people's vote now.



If you mean "leave _with no deal_" v "remain" I think remain would piss it.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> If you mean "leave _with no deal_" v "remain" I think remain would piss it.


No I think chilango means_ Leave_ vs _Remain, _i.e. a rerun of 2016


----------



## tommers (Mar 28, 2019)

You missed out the Beckett one.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 28, 2019)

tommers said:


> You missed out the Beckett one.


No Spy is taking that as passed. It's a bit strange putting a option on a referendum of the final Brexit options asking people if they want a referendum on the final Brexit options.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> No I think chilango means_ Leave_ vs _Remain, _i.e. a rerun of 2016


Well that's just pointless.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

tommers said:


> You missed out the Beckett one.


Well that's what this referendum will be.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Well that's just pointless.


Depends what your aim is.


----------



## Winot (Mar 28, 2019)

Breakdown of votes by party:


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Depends what your aim is.


Surely the aim is to break the deadlock and bring the whole saga to and end somehow, no? Putting out the same vote again runs the risk of putting us right back where we are.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 28, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> View attachment 165822



Tbf that was always going to happen once 2 Unlimited got elected.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 28, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> View attachment 165822



There’s no limit.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Surely the aim is to break the deadlock and bring the whole saga to and end somehow, no?


For some maybe but not for many. As I and chilango have said the aim of the People's Vote is to stop the UK leaving the EU, the aim of some is for the EU to leave the UK at all costs, the aim of others is to keep their political party together and with an advantage going into the next election.


----------



## andysays (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Needs to go to a referendum now. Put the four most popular (least unpopular?) options from last night to a people’s vote and vote in preference order.


That wasn't my question. I was responding to the suggestion that some sort of ranking system should have been used in the voting last night. 

If we're to have another, consultative, referendum, then I suggest it needs to be about the type of Brexit, choosing from a range of options, rather than no Brexit being an option. But most of the MPs who voted for another referendum last night see it as a means of blocking Brexit completely.


----------



## chilango (Mar 28, 2019)

The so-called People's Vote campaign long predates the current deadlock. Whilst it might gain some additional support as a neat to break the deadlock, that was never its aim. 

Its always been framed as a re-run where leavers who realised their mistakes and young people who couldn't vote in 2016 get their chance to overtime the wrong decision that was made.

Of course, things have moved on, by not moving on,  since then...


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 28, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Put any Brexit against remain and remain would win - there seem to be enough leavers who absolutely don’t want the wrong sort of leave, whereas there is only one remain proposed.


Shouldnt there be some sort of choice on what type of remain ?


----------



## kabbes (Mar 28, 2019)

Winot said:


> Breakdown of votes by party:
> 
> View attachment 165828


So the SNP are basically refusing to vote for anything except revocation, judging from that.  Their votes for customs union would have tipped it over the line.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2019)

kabbes said:


> So the SNP are basically refusing to vote for anything except revocation, judging from that.  Their votes for customs union would have tipped it over the line.


the limp dems would have tipped customs union over the line, no need for sturgeon's brigade to do anything.


----------



## Winot (Mar 28, 2019)

What the vote last night suggests is that there could be a consensus in Parliament for a Brexit involving a customs union. 

Switching to a customs union involves changing the political declaration. Labour will rightly be fearful that they would not be able to get any guarantees on this.

A possible deal could involve agreeing to vote for the withdrawal agreement  but only in return for legally binding changes to the political declaration or alternatively a cross-party committee being in charge of negotiating the political declaration.

All of this will involve needing more time. The only options practically at this stage therefore are a no deal or an extension. I would imagine that the EU would give a long extension if the UK went back to them with a concrete plan along the above lines.

Of course, all of this involves political compromise so probably won’t happen. 

My best guess is a General Election as that is usually the outcome when the Government loses control.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 28, 2019)

kabbes said:


> So the SNP are basically refusing to vote for anything except revocation, judging from that.  Their votes for customs union would have tipped it over the line.


Voted for the 2nd ref. (Which just emphasises that I and chilango have said)


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> But half of those options got knocked out last night. If we say, for example, take the four options that were defeated by the smallest number of votes (not perfect because there were loads of abstentions but fuck it, something needs to be done), it would be:
> 
> Leave with customs union (Clarke): defeated by 8
> Labour alternative (Steptoe): defeated by 70
> ...


Cherry’s wasn’t blanket Revoke. It was Revoke if No Deal looms.

I think May’s Deal (the Withdrawal Agreement) is dead and needs to be killed. It shouldn’t go on the ballot. Nor should Remain.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 28, 2019)

Does anyone have the breakdown on Leave vs Remain for PC voters?

The SNPs position is clear, and on their terms rational, but Wales didn't have the strong majority for remain that Scotland has and PC has deliberately moved to Labour's right so I would have thought it would have benefitted them to take a more flexible line. Unless they are trying to target angered Tory remainers?

EDIT: This says about a third but its from 2016 and I'm not sure about the methodology


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 28, 2019)

Winot said:


> What the vote last night suggests is that there could be a consensus in Parliament for a Brexit involving a customs union.
> 
> Switching to a customs union involves changing the political declaration. Labour will rightly be fearful that they would not be able to get any guarantees on this.
> 
> ...


Yep, it seems to me if the govt committed to the customs union they could probably get a deal through parliament. But they won't because it will split the Tory party (or because, as May puts it, no customs union was in their manifesto for that election she failed to win). So we come right back to the trigger of the whole process: a divided ruling class party that is unable to resolve its differences over whether the rich can make more money inside or outside the EU. The number of vultures who voted for a no-deal brexit yesterday reminded me that this is an argument not just with the nutters in the ERG but with a whole swathe of the Tory party who can see the advantages of being able to restructure the economy without EU interference. What a grim fight to be held hostage to.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 28, 2019)

Leave with no deal v remain with leave having a 1.2 million head start.


----------



## Winot (Mar 28, 2019)

Having a 2nd referendum with no deal as an option would be the height of political lunacy.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 28, 2019)

With the customs union closest to a majority, far closer than May's deal has got on two tries, you'd think the sensible thing to do would be to run with that. Instead we've got May offering to scoop her own eyes out with a spoon to buy a few more votes from a parliament she publically cussed out not a week ago.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 28, 2019)

Winot said:


> Having a 2nd referendum with no deal as an option would be the height of political lunacy.



The standard for 'height of political lunacy' is being recalibrated on a daily basis right now tbf.


----------



## chilango (Mar 28, 2019)

Fwiw I don't think there'll be a 2nd referendum (unless it a confirmatory one, perhaps).

They're more likely to rip the plaster straight off and just revoke a50 and be done with it than re-run leave vs. remain imo.


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 28, 2019)

chilango said:


> Fwiw I don't think there'll be a 2nd referendum (unless it a confirmatory one, perhaps).
> 
> They're more likely to rip the plaster straight off and just revoke a50 and be done with it than re-run leave vs. remain imo.



not a chance of that happening I'm afraid...


----------



## Patteran (Mar 28, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the limp dems would have tipped customs union over the line, no need for sturgeon's brigade to do anything.



Lib Dems, SNP or Chuka's Indie Disco could all have got it across the line. The perceived sensible, moderate compromise sunk by the performative sensible, moderate, compromising centre grown-ups in the room.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2019)

chilango said:


> Fwiw I don't think there'll be a 2nd referendum (unless it a confirmatory one, perhaps).
> 
> They're more likely to rip the plaster straight off and just revoke a50 and be done with it than re-run leave vs. remain imo.


yeh that's the way it will be


----------



## tommers (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Well that's what this referendum will be.




good  point


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> For some maybe but not for many. As I and chilango have said the aim of the People's Vote is to stop the UK leaving the EU, the aim of some is for the EU to leave the UK at all costs, the aim of others is to keep their political party together and with an advantage going into the next election.





danny la rouge said:


> Cherry’s wasn’t blanket Revoke. It was Revoke if No Deal looms.
> 
> I think May’s Deal (the Withdrawal Agreement) is dead and needs to be killed. It shouldn’t go on the ballot. Nor should Remain.



I think there has to be a revoke option for all the reasons the remainers have been banging on about over the last two years, some of which are valid; and we need to have an option that doesn't include a customs union (which would be the WA).

At a push I reckon I could support a Clarke v May referendum.


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 28, 2019)

The trouble is that people want everything solved _now_, which has never been the case with this awful process; always left either to a last minute compromise, or last minute _making it up as we go along_ procedural moment.

Nothing was ever going to be solved last night. The three best performing amendments will (probably) come back on Monday and the winner of those will be suggested as policy- it's not binding. The parties were voting I think for absolutes last night, their ideal scenario, in a bid to keep them on the table next week.

TM will still try to bring her wretched deal back despite the Speaker's seeming ban on it; definitely a sense of parallel universe about the Tories last night with lots of leadership hopefuls preening themselves as having changed their minds on a vote that probably will never happen.

We're in the hands of the Europeans. I very much doubt anything will have been solved by April 12. Even if Letwin (with the votes of SNP / PC / Green etc, who will vote for a customs union if revoke is off the table) gains a big majority for something TM is hell bent on ignoring anything that goes against the Tory manifesto. So she won't do it.

This then leaves the "taking back control" UK to see if the views of Tusk and Merkel prevail over Macron's. If the latter, we're out without a deal. If the former, it's a long extension and participation in Euro elections which will see TM going and the collapse of the government, and another (probably inconclusive) general election. There's something of a miserable irony about the likes of Chope, Jenkin, Bill Cash et al desperately hoping for the French president to give them a no deal Brexit because the "sovereign parliament" of our great "buccaneering nation" can't, or won't.

Brexit will never end.


----------



## tommers (Mar 28, 2019)

Winot said:


> Breakdown of votes by party:
> 
> View attachment 165828



The thing that jumps out to me with that is that the Tories' preferred option is No Deal.  That got the most support from them.  At least Labour are (largely) willing to compromise on a few options.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2019)

steeplejack said:


> The trouble is that people want everything solved _now_, which has never been the case with this awful process; always left either to a last minute compromise, or last minute _making it up as we go along_ procedural moment.
> 
> Nothing was ever going to be solved last night. The three best performing amendments will (probably) come back on Monday and the winner of those will be suggested as policy- it's not binding. The parties were voting I think for absolutes last night, their ideal scenario, in a bid to keep them on the table next week.
> 
> ...


every day which passes without a resolution of this issue sees jobs and investment go overseas. a long extension will fuck the economy as much as leaving with a shit deal.


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 28, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> every day which passes without a resolution of this issue sees jobs and investment go overseas. a long extension will fuck the economy as much as leaving with a shit deal.



yeah, I'm not arguing for a long extension- there's no good options on the table.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I think there has to be a revoke option for all the reasons the remainers have been banging on about over the last two years, some of which are valid; and we need to have an option that doesn't include a customs union (which would be the WA).
> 
> At a push I reckon I could support a Clarke v May referendum.


I’ve lost track of which options fared best and which didn’t. But I thought Common Market 2.0 was an internally logical proposition: the Euroskeptic tendency and the birth of UKIP was largely a result of the negotiations that led to Maastricht. Therefore returning to a pre-Maastricht like relationship with (what is now the EU) is a coherent position.

The thing is, this is all so far from what I want to achieve, it becomes like an onlooker cheering on the prey in a wildlife documentary.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 28, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve lost track of which options fared best and which didn’t. But I thought Common Market 2.0 was an internally logical proposition...



Common Market 2.0 didn't go down well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2019)

steeplejack said:


> yeah, I'm not arguing for a long extension- there's no good options on the table.


it was a comment on the possibility of a long extension more than taking issue with you. when i was little i thought that people like heath and wilson and callaghan and thatcher had some special knowledge or special qualities which made them better able to run the country than us mere electors. but as i've aged i've come to realise that even with their civil servants and intelligence services and (predominantly) oxbridge education, a bunch of ignorant stupid wankers run this country. you could go to public houses or bookmakers right now, drag 650 people out of them, tell them they are now parliamentarians, and they'd do a better job befuddled or apathetic as they may be, than the useless fucking numpties in westminster.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve lost track of which options fared best and which didn’t. But I thought Common Market 2.0 was an internally logical proposition: the Euroskeptic tendency and the birth of UKIP was largely a result of the negotiations that led to Maastricht. Therefore returning to a pre-Maastricht like relationship with (what is now the EU) is a coherent position.
> 
> The thing is, this is all so far from what I want to achieve, it becomes like an onlooker cheering on the prey in a wildlife documentary.


Internally consistent and a genuine compromise. I was a bit surprised so few Tories went for it tbh. I think in the mad place we're now in that it's considered 'too remainy'. More Tories want no deal than a compromise.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve lost track of which options fared best and which didn’t. But I thought Common Market 2.0 was an internally logical proposition: the Euroskeptic tendency and the birth of UKIP was largely a result of the negotiations that led to Maastricht. Therefore returning to a pre-Maastricht like relationship with (what is now the EU) is a coherent position.
> 
> The thing is, this is all so far from what I want to achieve, it becomes like an onlooker cheering on the prey in a wildlife documentary.


CM2 is Norway+, isn't it? That doesn't preclude freedom of movement and still involves contributions to the EU budget and acceptance of a lot of EU law, so I don't see that getting off the ground. A customs union won't allow 3rd party trade deals to be made, which is the whole point for many Brexiteers, so in reality all that's left is the WA or revoke, no?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> CM2 is Norway+, isn't it? That doesn't preclude freedom of movement and still involves contributions to the EU budget and acceptance of a lot of EU law, so I don't see that getting off the ground. A customs union won't allow 3rd party trade deals to be made, which is the whole point for many Brexiteers, so in reality all that's left is the WA or revoke, no?


Thing is this kind of drawing back rather than running away is more or less what a lot of leave Tories have argued for over the years -  free trade but without the political union. It's only really post referendum that leaving the common market has come to be defined by some as a 'true brexit'.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 28, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Therefore returning to a pre-Maastricht like relationship with (what is now the EU) is a coherent position.



It's not really pre-Maastricht like though, because pre Maastricht we were a member of the EC, not a separate entity trying to make deals with it - a fairly fundamental difference I'd say.


----------



## chilango (Mar 28, 2019)

Tbh

I'm (almost) of the opinion that it should be straight fight between "no deal" and "revoke" as these seem to be the only options that they actually _want_. 

Everything in-between seems to be about covering their arses, blame avoidance, career positioning and damage limitation. Meaning none of them _really_ support these options when it comes down to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2019)

chilango said:


> Tbh
> 
> I'm (almost) of the opinion that it should be straight fight between "no deal" and "revoke" as these seem to be the only options that they actually _want_.
> 
> Everything in-between seems to be about covering their arses, blame avoidance, career positioning and damage limitation. Meaning none of them _really_ support these options when it comes down to it.


it is going to be a straight fight between no deal and no brexit/as you were


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 28, 2019)

For the ruling class and its administrative wing at this point remaining in formal membership of the single market is the key. Stepping outside of that might be attractive to the WTO wing of the tories and socialists and trade unionists. The latter can conceive of the possibilities of a labour election victory where it would enter office unshackled from the race to the bottom orthodoxy of the single market project.

So, a Clarke type arrangement will be adopted by the HoC and a benevolent EU Troika will agree we can remain within the club, and remainers and other useful idiots will see this as some sort of victory for progressive politics.

What’s far more interesting, and potentially explosive, is where 17 million leave voters travel politically once their vote has been overturned. Away from the social media bubble there is a genuine rage building with a basket of grievances synthesised by the brexit process


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> For the ruling class and its administrative wing at this point remaining in the single market is the key.


if this was really the case we wouldn't be in the abject position we are. for _sections of _ the ruling class and its administrative wing, yes. for the ruling class and its administrative wing as a whole, no.


----------



## Winot (Mar 28, 2019)

Ooh I like ‘synthesised’.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2019)

who are the ruling class?

Chapter 3: Class

they seem pretty fucking divided to me atm


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> CM2 is Norway+, isn't it? That doesn't preclude freedom of movement and still involves contributions to the EU budget and acceptance of a lot of EU law, so I don't see that getting off the ground. A customs union won't allow 3rd party trade deals to be made, which is the whole point for many Brexiteers, so in reality all that's left is the WA or revoke, no?


CM2 is Norway +, yes. This rubbish about trade deals is a rather recent invention, though. Years ago, that wasn't the argument made by tories criticising the EU, and it's utter drivel mostly, from idiots like Johnson, Davis and Fox (and Farage, of course, with his 'let's trade more with New Zealand'), who have managed to prove how utterly drivelly it is through their own failures in the last two years.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

teuchter said:


> It's not really pre-Maastricht like though, because pre Maastricht we were a member of the EC, not a separate entity trying to make deals with it - a fairly fundamental difference I'd say.


Yes, which is why it’s 2.0.  It’s not the same, but attempting to approximate the conditions.

As I say, though, these are not my options. I don’t advocate any of them. I didn’t want any. I’m just looking from the outside at what seemed to me a consistent attempt.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Mar 28, 2019)

chilango said:


> Fwiw I don't think there'll be a 2nd referendum (unless it a confirmatory one, perhaps).
> 
> They're more likely to rip the plaster straight off and just revoke a50 and be done with it than re-run leave vs. remain imo.



More likely to rip the plaster off and leave with no deal.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What’s far more interesting, and potentially explosive, is where 17 million leave voters travel politically once their vote has been overturned. Away from the social media bubble there is a genuine rage building with a basket of grievances synthesised by the brexit process


You don't speak for the 17 million or what they voted for, though. I can tell you that at least two of them (my mum and dad) both voted leave saying that they only wanted the common market they originally voted in favour of, not all the other stuff. So something along the lines of a soft Norway+ brexit wouldn't be overturning their votes.

This poisonous situation has not been helped by two years of relentless 'brexit means brexit' rhetoric, as if any kind of compromise on leaving the common market were a betrayal of a vote that didn't mention it either way.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What’s far more interesting, and potentially explosive, is where 17 million leave voters travel politically once their vote has been overturned. Away from the social media bubble there is a genuine rage building with a basket of grievances synthesised by the brexit process


17 million people did not vote for a hard Brexit.


----------



## Cid (Mar 28, 2019)

They’re certainly not travelling on Farage’s march.


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I think there has to be a revoke option for all the reasons the remainers have been banging on about over the last two years, some of which are valid; and we need to have an option that doesn't include a customs union (which would be the WA).
> 
> At a push I reckon I could support a Clarke v May referendum.



I could vote in that one.  If it was a Leave / Remain one I'd have to abstain this time round for reasons of Brecht's Chalk Circle


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> 17 million people did not vote for a hard Brexit.


And it's another example, imo, of the idiocy of splitting people up into two factions leave/remain as if either of these represented a coherent group with coherent sets of interests or beliefs. Defining people politically as either 'leave' or 'remain' is part of the problem here. Plenty of people who voted leave will feel betrayed by the chaos of a no deal crash out.


----------



## pinkychukkles (Mar 28, 2019)

Much like Parliament, the poll here offers no real indication of the likely way forward either 
_We're all doomed I tell ya!_


----------



## teuchter (Mar 28, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yes, which is why it’s 2.0.  It’s not the same, but attempting to approximate the conditions.
> 
> As I say, though, these are not my options. I don’t advocate any of them. *I didn’t want any.* I’m just looking from the outside at what seemed to me a consistent attempt.



looks like you are currently well aligned with the House of Commons then


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

teuchter said:


> looks like you are currently well aligned with the House of Commons then


I don’t want _them_ either.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

It's only ever been a choice of 'least bad option', hasn't it? For me that is 2.0 as it offers the best protection to EU immigrants.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's only ever been a choice of 'least bad option', hasn't it? For me that is 2.0 as it offers the best protection to EU immigrants.


Yeah but CM2 is almost not leaving


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Yeah but CM2 is almost not leaving


Kind of. But only really by the rhetoric of the last couple of years. It's a drawing back, and it leaves open various future directions of travel. It means leaving the common fisheries policy, for instance, so it's not nothing. But my 'red line' is immigration - I make no bones about that.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 28, 2019)

Gotta have that free flow of labour for capital.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

NoXion said:


> Gotta have that free flow of labour for capital.


Yep. that's exactly why I want EU immigrants protected. You got it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

The BBC News should just pin this to the top of their webpage. There’s no need for it to link to any content. That’s comment enough.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 28, 2019)

pinkychukkles said:


> Much like Parliament, the poll here offers no real indication of the likely way forward either
> _We're all doomed I tell ya!_



We need to increase the granularity, make it so individuals can make their own trade deals or choose to align with the EU or any other transnational body. Go full fruitcake libertarian.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Kind of. But only really by the rhetoric of the last couple of years. It's a drawing back, and it leaves open various future directions of travel. It means leaving the common fisheries policy, for instance, so it's not nothing. But my 'red line' is immigration - I make no bones about that.


EFTA + Schengen then?

On the immigration issue I think it's important to protect the rights of those already here and their families but less convinced that people from EU states should be more able to live and work here than anyone from anywhere else, especially commonwealth and former commonwealth nations.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Yeah but CM2 is almost not leaving



‘Half in, half out’ is probably a fair result given approximately half the country voted in and approximately half voted out.  

However in a nation of pessimists it would just be both sides pissing and moaning with half empty glasses.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. that's exactly why I want EU immigrants protected. You got it.



What you want and what you'll get aren't the same thing. It was never about creating some wet liberal vision of multi-cultural utopia. That's fluff, propaganda. If we get some fudge instead of crashing out or revoking A50, then EU nationals will still get shafted.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> EFTA + Schengen then?


It wouldn't be Schengen. UK won't join that inside the EU let alone outside it. Doesn't need to be, though.


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2019)

May wants MPs to vote on Brexit deal again tomorrow, Leadsom announces - live news


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2019)

_*pukes at link to Guido*_


----------



## Argonia (Mar 28, 2019)

gosub said:


> Meaningful Vote 3 Confirmed For Tomorrow -



How did they get round the Speaker?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

gosub said:


> Meaningful Vote 3 Confirmed For Tomorrow -


Oh, ffs. Pointless vote 3.


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2019)

S☼I said:


> _*pukes at link to Guido*_



He was quicker than elsewhere, but amended


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh, ffs. Pointless vote 3.


Theresa May finally fixing the date for her resignation?

There is a certain neatness to her resigning on the original Brexit Day itself. She will have wasted the full two years.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Theresa May finally fixing the date for her resignation?
> 
> There is a certain neatness to her resigning on the original Brexit Day itself.


The thing is, she said she’d resign _if_ they passed her Withdrawal Agreement. They won’t. The DUP have already said they’ll vote against. Which means JRM will too.


----------



## chilango (Mar 28, 2019)

She might resign anyway.

Who knows?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The thing is, she said she’d resign _if_ they passed her Withdrawal Agreement. They won’t. The DUP have already said they’ll vote against. Which means JRM will too.


I know. But she may have finally painted herself into a corner where she has to resign when they don't vote for it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

chilango said:


> She might resign anyway.
> 
> Who knows?


Everyone has lost, but all must have prizes nonetheless.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I know. But she may have finally painted herself into a corner where she has to resign when they don't vote for it.


That’d be fun. Maybe they can get through three PMs as well as three Brexit Secretaries before it’s all done.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 28, 2019)

So now there's the issue of whether or not they vote on the Withdrawal Agreement or the Political Declaration. Brexit is fucking crazy.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 28, 2019)

gosub said:


> May wants MPs to vote on Brexit deal again tomorrow, Leadsom announces - live news


MV3 , is this the one where Tom Cruise broke into the Kremlin ?


----------



## elbows (Mar 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Theresa May finally fixing the date for her resignation?
> 
> There is a certain neatness to her resigning on the original Brexit Day itself. She will have wasted the full two years.



Even if her deal passed she has not said she will resign on that day, just before the next round of negotiations.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

elbows said:


> Even if her deal passed she has not said she will resign on that day, just before the next round of negotiations.


I know. I was kind of implying that she would lose tomorrow and have to resign right there and then.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 28, 2019)

tommers said:


> The thing that jumps out to me with that is that the Tories' preferred option is No Deal.  That got the most support from them.  At least Labour are (largely) willing to compromise on a few options.



I hope people in tory constituencies are taking note of this fuckery.


----------



## Winot (Mar 28, 2019)

Argonia said:


> How did they get round the Speaker?



They haven't decided or asked yet, but I guess the idea is that the vote would be for the WA only without the PD, so would be different to MV3.


----------



## rutabowa (Mar 28, 2019)

Could I check, is the current situ that we would "no deal" at 11pm tomorrow, or has the date definitely been change to at least April 12 now?


----------



## Argonia (Mar 28, 2019)

At least 12th April


----------



## rutabowa (Mar 28, 2019)

ha all those parties I see people putting on tomorrow for Brexit eve have been a bit undermined then.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

One possible way out of this in a referendum might be to separate out two broad aspects of EU membership - namely political union and economic union. That could mean you have two yes/no questions that both just need simple majorities to be passed. So you have two questions: first, do you want to remain in the political union with the EU yes/no; second, do you want to remain in the common market yes/no? I guess you might get some people voting for political but not economic union, but probably not that many. One of the weaknesses of the first ref is that it only asked the first question.


----------



## not a trot (Mar 28, 2019)

Argonia said:


> At least 12th April



I thought the eu extension was dependent on mv3 being passed. Really getting confused with all this shit now. I need a fucking hobby.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 28, 2019)

not a trot said:


> I thought the eu extension was dependent on mv3 being passed. Really getting confused with all this shit now. I need a fucking hobby.



A new, different hobby.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2019)

not a trot said:


> I thought the eu extension was dependent on mv3 being passed. Really getting confused with all this shit now. I need a fucking hobby.


why not take up looting this summer?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 28, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> why not take up looting this summer?



Fills your shelves, keeps you fit.


----------



## rutabowa (Mar 28, 2019)

not a trot said:


> I thought the eu extension was dependent on mv3 being passed. Really getting confused with all this shit now. I need a fucking hobby.


April 12 was if it didn't pass, May the something was if it did pass. But I thought that was just an offer by the EU, and the date still needed to be changed on some bit of paper to stop the no deal tomorrow. I guess that bit of paper must have been changed now.


----------



## elbows (Mar 28, 2019)




----------



## steeplejack (Mar 28, 2019)

not a trot said:


> I thought the eu extension was dependent on mv3 being passed. Really getting confused with all this shit now. I need a fucking hobby.



Yep, then we're into the hands of the EU totally and the battle between Merkel / Tusk (inclined to be lenient and allow a much longer extension in return for the Brits taking part in European elections) or Macron (we're ready for no deal, tough shit if you aren't. Bye).


----------



## Cid (Mar 28, 2019)

rutabowa said:


> April 12 was if it didn't pass, May the something was if it did pass. But I thought that was just an offer by the EU, and the date still needed to be changed on some bit of paper to stop the no deal tomorrow. I guess that bit of paper must have been changed now.



I think they did at the start of the week, some brexiteers were sounding off about it being ‘illegal’.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 28, 2019)

Cid said:


> I think they did at the start of the week, some brexiteers were sounding off about it being ‘illegal’.


It was a statutory Instrument and it passed by a huge margin last night while they were counting the ballots.


----------



## klang (Mar 28, 2019)

rutabowa said:


> ha all those parties I see people putting on tomorrow for Brexit eve have been a bit undermined then.


shame, i was only in it for the boogie


----------



## not a trot (Mar 28, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> why not take up looting this summer?



We're gonna have a summer ! Is that down to Brexit ? I could be on the lookout for a new mower.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 28, 2019)

Crispy said:


> It was a statutory Instrument and it passed by a huge margin last night while they were counting the ballots.



Yep, that was the one thing that did get a majority.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 28, 2019)

not a trot said:


> We're gonna have a summer ! Is that down to Brexit ? I could be on the lookout for a new mower.



Everything’s coming up roses.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 28, 2019)

If May resigns tomorrow I'm gonna be so fucking pissed.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 28, 2019)

Oh fuck me what's the difference between the Withdrawal Agreement and the Political Declaration again? Which one has the backstop in?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Break - Theresa May has decided to put the Withdrawal Agreement alone to a Commons vote tomorrow, without the Political Declaration (1)</p>&mdash; Tom Newton Dunn (@tnewtondunn) <a href="">March 28, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


----------



## Lucy Fur (Mar 28, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Oh fuck me what's the difference between the Withdrawal Agreement and the Political Declaration again? Which one has the backstop in?
> 
> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Break - Theresa May has decided to put the Withdrawal Agreement alone to a Commons vote tomorrow, without the Political Declaration (1)</p>&mdash; Tom Newton Dunn (@tnewtondunn) <a href="">March 28, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>



Withdrawal has the backstop. So the DUP can still fuck it.


----------



## killer b (Mar 28, 2019)

It doesn't matter as it won't pass. Difficult to see why they're bothering.


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2019)

killer b said:


> It doesn't matter as it won't pass. Difficult to see why they're bothering.



Drowning not waving


----------



## Winot (Mar 28, 2019)

killer b said:


> It doesn't matter as it won't pass. Difficult to see why they're bothering.



The HoC doesn’t usually sit on Fridays. As they’d specially convened it I suppose they had to give it something to do.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 28, 2019)

killer b said:


> It doesn't matter as it won't pass. Difficult to see why they're bothering.


Can't see that she has any other option. She's going down with this ship no matter what.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 28, 2019)

If it passes I will streak naked through London with a sausage up my bum.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

Argonia said:


> If it passes I will streak naked through London with a sausage up my bum.


Quoted. Just in case.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Can't see that she has any other option. She's going down with this ship no matter what.


It's her only card. She keeps producing it, but it's the 2 of clubs every time.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

killer b said:


> It doesn't matter as it won't pass. Difficult to see why they're bothering.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Quoted. Just in case.



I was about to do that.


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 28, 2019)




----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's her only card. She keeps producing it, but it's the 2 of clubs every time.


I reckon she's just given up and tbh, I'm surprised she took the wretched job on in the first place. I doubt anyone else from any party would have done any better but fuck me, this was a poisoned chalice! If I were her now I'd do my best to fuck it all up for the next mug.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 28, 2019)

Just popped in to check if things are still fucked and chaotic. Good. Parliamentary spasms and seizures to continue indefinitely


----------



## AnandLeo (Mar 28, 2019)

Theresa May says she will step down if the parliament accepts her deal, leaving someone else to implement the deal she has agreed with the EU, that has so far been rejected by the parliament. What kind of dealership is that? It is similar to David Cameron saying, we will have a referendum to leave the EU, and if people vote to leave, I will step down so that someone else can steer the negotiation for leaving the EU, because I am not the fit person to lead the process to leave the EU.

The problem is, when the referendum was legislated in 2015, and held in 2016, there was no mention of how the UK will leave the EU membership, after 46 years of change in trading and doing business with EU; besides all the EU directives, bureaucracy, and political union amassed over a period of half century. There is a prudent objective to leave the EU with minimum damage to trade relations and economy, and maintain favourable social, economic, and industrial relations. That is what at stake in the current impasse. The geopolitical obstacle of Northern Ireland border is a tangible impasse. The indicative vote held in parliament was a futile ploy of the parliament. It had no efficacy of commitment or clarity of what was voted for. It was a nonchalant ruse. A more deliberated cross party negotiation for common objectives like a customs union and free trade is the decent strategy for the Brexit. However, neither PM Theresa May nor her hard-line Brexitiers are amenable to such a resolve. They are befuddled with hard-line politics. Neither Jeremy Corbyn has a passion for such a cross-party endeavour. 	 

God save the United Kingdom.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I reckon she's just given up and tbh, I'm surprised she took the wretched job on in the first place. I doubt anyone else from any party would have done any better but fuck me, this was a poisoned chalice! If I were her now I'd do my best to fuck it all up for the next mug.


I don't really buy that line. This that's been happening this week - an exploration of the range of options represented by the referendum result - should have happened more than two years ago, before even triggering A50. Some kind of compromise position could have been reached and agreed and implemented. May wanted her hard anti-immigrant brexit. That's why she is where she is.

I only hope that her vile deal is voted down again and she finally resigns. Only then can things move on.


----------



## LDC (Mar 28, 2019)




----------



## not a trot (Mar 28, 2019)

killer b said:


> It doesn't matter as it won't pass. *Difficult to see why they're bothering.*



Something to fill out the day. Friday is always a fucker for finding something to do in the office.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One possible way out of this in a referendum might be to separate out two broad aspects of EU membership - namely political union and economic union. That could mean you have two yes/no questions that both just need simple majorities to be passed. So you have two questions: first, do you want to remain in the political union with the EU yes/no; second, do you want to remain in the common market yes/no? I guess you might get some people voting for political but not economic union, but probably not that many. One of the weaknesses of the first ref is that it only asked the first question.


I can see this appealing to many. But do _you_ believe you can separate the "economic" from the "political" union?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 28, 2019)

not a trot said:


> Something to fill out the day. Friday is always a fucker for finding something to do in the office.



Dress down Friday too.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You don't speak for the 17 million or what they voted for, though. I can tell you that at least two of them (my mum and dad) both voted leave saying that they only wanted the common market they originally voted in favour of, not all the other stuff. So something along the lines of a soft Norway+ brexit wouldn't be overturning their votes.
> 
> This poisonous situation has not been helped by two years of relentless 'brexit means brexit' rhetoric, as if any kind of compromise on leaving the common market were a betrayal of a vote that didn't mention it either way.



Brexit means brexit. Imagine you handed that in as homework at primary school, as your answer to the question 'what does brexit mean?' That's a guaranteed '0/10, see me' right there. Get yourself to the top of the cuntpile first however, and that insult to banality is apparently both a political ideology and a plan for the future of a whole country. Bizzarre.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Mar 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's her only card. She keeps producing it, but it's the 2 of clubs every time.


Now she’s decided to cut the 2 of clubs in half and reckons she’s playing two aces!


----------



## gosub (Mar 28, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Now she’s decided to cut the 2 of clubs in half and reckons she’s playing two aces!



well, as chess moves go, its different.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 28, 2019)

I see there will be a demo in Westminster tomorrow including Yaxley Lennon in the flesh.
Presumably there will be a lot of heavy breathing from his followers.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

Has any law actually been changed to delay leaving tomorrow? I know two extension dates with stipulations have been _offered_, but does Parliament have to actually _do_ something to switch the previous date off? We’re not going to get to 11:01pm tomorrow for someone to say “hold on, did we switch it off?”


----------



## ozu (Mar 28, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Has any law actually been changed to delay leaving tomorrow? I know two extension dates with stipulations have been _offered_, but does Parliament have to actually _do_ something to switch the previous date off? We’re not going to get to 11:01pm tomorrow for someone to say “hold on, did we switch it off?”



They voted to change the leave date to 12th April or 22nd May yesterday in HoC I believe.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

ozu said:


> They voted to change the leave date to 12th April or 22nd May yesterday in HoC I believe.


Cheers. I’d missed that piece of news in the flood of what-the-fuck.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 28, 2019)

Do we know who the super-principled fuckers are who will vote for the WA if May resigns?


----------



## andysays (Mar 28, 2019)

ozu said:


> They voted to change the leave date to 12th April or 22nd May yesterday in HoC I believe.


But it went mostly unnoticed because of May's offer to flounce and all eight motions failing to achieve a majority...


----------



## rutabowa (Mar 28, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Has any law actually been changed to delay leaving tomorrow? I know two extension dates with stipulations have been _offered_, but does Parliament have to actually _do_ something to switch the previous date off? We’re not going to get to 11:01pm tomorrow for someone to say “hold on, did we switch it off?”


That was what I was wondering. That would have been amazing. "whoops".


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 28, 2019)

ozu said:


> They voted to change the leave date to 12th April or 22nd May yesterday in HoC I believe.


2 days before my birthday. If they had made it two days later the soundtrack would have been Aphex Twin’s Avril 14, and also same day the titanic sank. Sonic, political, and nautical chaos.


ETA: incidentally me and my mate were previously known in Orkney pubs as “mayhem and chaos”


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Do we know who the super-principled fuckers are who will vote for the WA if May resigns?


We will tomorrow.

Boris is rumoured to be one.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I reckon she's just given up and tbh, I'm surprised she took the wretched job on in the first place. I doubt anyone else from any party would have done any better but fuck me, this was a poisoned chalice! If I were her now I'd do my best to fuck it all up for the next mug.


Aye it’s the EU running that show. There’s nae braw deal, just a raw deal.


----------



## moochedit (Mar 28, 2019)

ozu said:


> They voted to change the leave date to 12th April or 22nd May yesterday in HoC I believe.



Has the EU signed that off as well?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 28, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I can see this appealing to many. But do _you_ believe you can separate the "economic" from the "political" union?



No. The poltical and the economic development of the EU has influenced and changed and amended the other and, critically in this case, have become deeply intertwined. People on here have stated that many of the 17 million leave voters voted for this or that form of brexit. What unites them all is a desire to step away from that nexus. Put simply, the question of an economic union, but not a political union, was for the referendum in the 1970’s. At that point the separation of the two could be traced. 50 years on the two are so interlocked and self reinforcing that the idea you can leave the one but not the other is a nonsense. The idea we could be bound by economic laws that don’t impinge on politics is risible frankly.


----------



## ozu (Mar 28, 2019)

moochedit said:


> Has the EU signed that off as well?


 
Think they already did last week when May went to ask for the extension, May said this week in HoC departure date has already changed according to international law, think parliament ratifying it yesterday was last step needed to make it official.


----------



## Ponyutd (Mar 28, 2019)




----------



## ozu (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Do we know who the super-principled fuckers are who will vote for the WA if May resigns?



Boris and only a few others probably, Rees-Mogg is following whatever the DUP do according to what he said yesterday at least. Most of the ERG still seem dead against it even if she is going. Still wouldn't seem to be enough to get it passed.


----------



## Poi E (Mar 28, 2019)

ozu said:


> Rees-Mogg is following whatever the DUP do .



Not going to get him points in his hereafter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I reckon she's just given up and tbh, I'm surprised she took the wretched job on in the first place. I doubt anyone else from any party would have done any better but fuck me, this was a poisoned chalice! If I were her now I'd do my best to fuck it all up for the next mug.


I'd have done it much better


----------



## Argonia (Mar 28, 2019)

Hold on so the vote tomorrow isn't meaningful? Does that mean it's meaningless?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 28, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The idea we could be bound by economic laws that don’t impinge on politics is risible frankly.


Indeed. It is easy to see why politicians, both UK and EU, claim to make such a division but it should be rejected.


----------



## mx wcfc (Mar 28, 2019)




----------



## mx wcfc (Mar 28, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


>



Oh well.


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 28, 2019)

This Facebook post is no longer available. It may have been removed or the privacy settings of the post may have changed.


----------



## ozu (Mar 28, 2019)

Looks like no chance of this passing, DUP will vote against. Hardly will convince Labour either in the knowledge after May 22nd Boris or some other hard Brexiter will be at the helm and negotiating the political declaration.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 28, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it was a comment on the possibility of a long extension more than taking issue with you. when i was little i thought that people like heath and wilson and callaghan and thatcher had some special knowledge or special qualities which made them better able to run the country than us mere electors. but as i've aged i've come to realise that even with their civil servants and intelligence services and (predominantly) oxbridge education, a bunch of ignorant stupid wankers run this country. you could go to public houses or bookmakers right now, drag 650 people out of them, tell them they are now parliamentarians, and they'd do a better job befuddled or apathetic as they may be, than the useless fucking numpties in westminster.



This is why I reckon, if we're going to have a parliament, it should be picked by lottery, like juries.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Mar 28, 2019)

Winot said:


> The HoC doesn’t usually sit on Fridays. As they’d specially convened it I suppose they had to give it something to do.


Time and a half, for a Friday?


----------



## andysays (Mar 28, 2019)

BBC reporting some historian calling the current situation the biggest constitutional crisis since 1688


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2019)

andysays said:


> BBC reporting some historian calling the current situation the biggest constitutional crisis since 1688


What was the crisis in 1688?


----------



## Supine (Mar 28, 2019)

Speculation that the vote tomorrow is part of a plan by Maybot to run us over the cliff 

What is Theresa May's Brexit Plan B?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2019)

S☼I said:


> What was the crisis in 1688?


Glorious Revolution - Wikipedia


----------



## andysays (Mar 28, 2019)

S☼I said:


> What was the crisis in 1688?


The 'Glorious Revolution' establishing parliament's supremacy over the monarch, as Sasaferrato no doubt remembers...


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 28, 2019)

The EU extended the date to April 12, it was fuck all to do with WM.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 28, 2019)

Supine said:


> Speculation that the vote tomorrow is part of a plan by Maybot to run us over the cliff
> 
> What is Theresa May's Brexit Plan B?


Really? That vote in particular? We’ve had a few


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 28, 2019)

Supine said:


> Speculation that the vote tomorrow is part of a plan by Maybot to run us over the cliff
> 
> What is Theresa May's Brexit Plan B?


I reckon adding the 6th option out of 8 in the last vote was the *pivotal* moment in said plan.


----------



## Cid (Mar 28, 2019)

andysays said:


> BBC reporting some historian calling the current situation the biggest constitutional crisis since 1688



Which historian?

Because they're full of shit.

e2a: actually I'm kind of thinking about it in wider brexit terms... in terms of the operation of parliament. Yeah... Hmm.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I can see this appealing to many. But do _you_ believe you can separate the "economic" from the "political" union?


No. I think that there is such a thing as a political economy and the two cannot be separated. However, there are certain aspects of the set up in which the UK withdraws from certain decision-making bodies and is also freed from certain of the decisions of those bodies as a result, while remaining in a very close economic (and in many ways political) union with them. That is basically the position of the likes of Norway and Switzerland now. 

The idea that the UK could have a real political independence from the rest of Europe is not realistic. It's as unrealistic as the idea that Scotland could be truly independent from the rest of Britain. Independence is a relative term. That's one of the basic lies of simplistic 'let's take back control' slogans.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No. I think that there is such a thing as a political economy and the two cannot be separated. However, there are certain aspects of the set up in which the UK withdraws from certain decision-making bodies and is also freed from certain of the decisions of those bodies as a result, while remaining in a very close economic (and in many ways political) union with them. That is basically the position of the likes of Norway and Switzerland now.
> 
> The idea that the UK could have a real political independence from the rest of Europe is not realistic. It's as unrealistic as the idea that Scotland could be truly independent from the rest of Britain. Independence is a relative term. That's one of the basic lies of simplistic 'let's take back control' slogans.



"If you remove the English army to-morrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain.

England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.

England would still rule you to your ruin, even while your lips offered hypocritical homage at the shrine of that Freedom whose cause you had betrayed."

James Connolly, 1897.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 29, 2019)

Some journos claiming that May will call a general election if her deal gets voted down tomorrow.

Downing Street: General Election will be called if Theresa May's Brexit deal is voted down for third time on Friday | Evolve Politics

may well be clickbait based on summit or nothing though. 

However - i still think a General Election is where we are heading - but i would imagine  the tories would want to replace May first.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> Some journos claiming that May will call a general election if her deal gets voted down tomorrow.
> 
> Downing Street: General Election will be called if Theresa May's Brexit deal is voted down for third time on Friday | Evolve Politics
> 
> ...



If Downing street were briefing this - which they might in a last ditch attempt to get the DUP onside - then they definitely wouldn't brief it to Evolve. 

But I am really worried she'll go tomorrow and I'll lose me bet :/


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 29, 2019)

I cant see her lasting much longer - but she wont go unless pushed, so your bet is probably safe. I reckon shes there for at least another 48 hours. maybe even a week.


----------



## andysays (Mar 29, 2019)

Cid said:


> Which historian?
> 
> Because they're full of shit.
> 
> e2a: actually I'm kind of thinking about it in wider brexit terms... in terms of the operation of parliament. Yeah... Hmm.





> The historian and vice-chancellor of the University of Buckingham, Sir Anthony Seldon, said he believed Brexit was the UK's biggest constitutional crisis since 1688, when the Glorious Revolution began. That revolution ultimately established the supremacy of Parliament over the British monarchy.





> Sir Anthony compared Brexit to previous crises, such as the Suez crisis in 1956, but then there was only "a week or two of real crisis", he said. "This hasn't gone on for a week," Sir Anthony said. "It's gone on for three years." Asked if the current situation was Suez on steroids, he replied: "Absolutely, and worse."





> Sir Anthony added: "The real essence of the problem is that the country voted to leave, but only just - another day it could have gone the other way. "But these people here in Parliament predominantly want to stay. "So is Britain a popular democracy, where the people decide the future, or is it these guys here, who are the representatives of the people who voted in general elections? And that's really the nub of the problem."


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

S☼I said:


> What was the crisis in 1688?



Protestant vs Catholic. Shocker!


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

andysays said:


> BBC reporting some historian calling the current situation the biggest constitutional crisis since 1688


Considering the length of time it has chuntered on, and the parliamentary hours spent without anyone being any wiser about how it will resolve itself, if at all, and that Scotland is on the brink of indyref2, and who knows what will be the knock on in NI, that’s probably a fair comment.

I can’t think of any constitutional crisis to compare since the Glorious Revolution/Crown and Parliament Act.

(Yes, there’s glee there. Of course there is).


----------



## Poi E (Mar 29, 2019)

Another problem with having no written constitution. You have no idea how unstable the foundations of your polity are.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Considering the length of time it has chuntered on, and the parliamentary hours spent without anyone being any wiser about how it will resolve itself, if at all, and that Scotland is on the brink of indyref2, and who knows what will be the knock on in NI, that’s probably a fair comment.
> 
> I can’t think of any constitutional crisis to compare since the Glorious Revolution/Crown and Parliament Act.
> 
> (Yes, there’s glee there. Of course there is).


Curragh mutiny


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Curragh mutiny


In that army officers went against the government? Yes, that’s a candidate. Wouldn’t downplay its significance.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> In that army officers went against the government? Yes, that’s a candidate. Wouldn’t downplay its significance.


Went against the govt and won


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Went against the govt and won


Well, yes.

But the point stands. Brexit is a significant constitutional crisis, of a magnitude not often matched.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2019)

Happy non-brexit day everybody...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 29, 2019)

i was thinking it's more on a par with olaf the hairy, lord high chieftan of the vikings, ordering 5,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside...


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i was thinking it's more on a par with olaf the hairy, lord high chieftan of the vikings, ordering 5,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside...


My inner pedant is howling “there is absolutely no evidence Vikings wore horned battle helmets!” so loudly that I couldn’t help responding.


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 29, 2019)




----------



## Yossarian (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> My inner pedant is howling “there is absolutely no evidence Vikings wore horned battle helmets!” so loudly that I couldn’t help responding.



With Olaf the Hairy in charge of supplying them, I'm not surprised.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 29, 2019)

Darkest hour for democracy. So apparently not the burning of the Reichstag or any invasion or assassination you care to remember, just this self absorbed shyte.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> View attachment 165937


----------



## prunus (Mar 29, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Darkest hour for democracy. So apparently not the burning of the Reichstag or any invasion or assassination you care to remember, just this self absorbed shyte.



“Shackles”  

Cuntitude of the Express is unbounded.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, yes.
> 
> But the point stands. Brexit is a significant constitutional crisis, of a magnitude not often matched.


We have a house of commons filled with incompetents of an abject uselessness not often matched


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> We have a house of commons filled with incompetents of an abject uselessness not often matched



Nevertheless in 20 years time some shiny Oxbridge blowhard will be reviewing the papers and lament how the Commons of the era lacks political heavyweights of the calibre of Dominic Raab or Andrea Leadsom.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 29, 2019)

prunus said:


> “Shackles”
> 
> Cuntitude of the Express is unbounded.



Still, I can’t wait to see behind the scenes of ‘Line of Duty’.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 29, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Darkest hour for democracy. So apparently not the burning of the Reichstag or any invasion or assassination you care to remember, just this self absorbed shyte.



Or that time we let a tax exile, a fashy US billionaire and a bunch of data mining nerds decide a referendum result?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Nevertheless in 20 years time some shiny Oxbridge blowhard will be reviewing the papers and lament how the Commons of the era lacks political heavyweights of the calibre of Dominic Raab or Andrea Leadsom.


yeh but they will be saying this from the vantage point of the south atlantic canal network looking out over the cenotaph which commemorates the joyful sacrifices made by the likes of dominic raab and andrea leadsom in the glorious cause of proletarian internationalism, the construction of the unparalleled grytviken-buenos aires friendship bridge.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 29, 2019)

https://spectator.us/time-forgave-brexit-voters/


----------



## Cid (Mar 29, 2019)

Be interesting to see whether there's much pro-brexit direct action.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Darkest hour for democracy. So apparently not the burning of the Reichstag or any invasion or assassination you care to remember, just this self absorbed shyte.


darkest hour for numeracy more like. as any fule kno parliament has not been sitting constantly since 23/6/16, and for a good portion of that time the fuckers have been on recess. so 1009 days of deliberation MY ARSE


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 29, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> https://spectator.us/time-forgave-brexit-voters/



I managed nearly a whole sentence of that.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I managed nearly a whole sentence of that.



Your tenacity for the cause has been recorded brother.


----------



## Poot (Mar 29, 2019)

I hope things move on quickly because I'm beginning to think that they're not giving the Brexit Festival their full attention and I'm worried that it won't be quite up to scratch. 

Theresa May proposes post-Brexit Festival of Great Britain and Northern Ireland


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> https://spectator.us/time-forgave-brexit-voters/


What the fuck _is_ that? Something a Radio 4 “comedy” show rejected as too toe curling?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 29, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> https://spectator.us/time-forgave-brexit-voters/


 God, that's monumentally shit. Public school A level essay, D grade


----------



## newbie (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Cheers. I’d missed that piece of news in the flood of what-the-fuck.


I watched the debate. As someone said above there was a claim, from Bill Cash, that the whole extension is illegal because parliament had not conferred authority on May to conclude a shabby deal with the EU to change the date, and that she'd done so without being provided with the necessary legal advice from the AG. The motion was passed, on the grounds that chaos will ensue if British and EU law are not in alignment on the leaving date. I'm no lawyer but it seemed to me that Cash had a point, particularly as May refused on a number of occasions to confirm she'd had legal advice. Whether there is a possibility of legal challenge to the Supreme Court I don't know but the claim is that the SI passed the day before yesterday is moot and under British law we leave at midnight tonight, although EU law has us members until April 12th.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> What the fuck _is_ that? Something a Radio 4 “comedy” show rejected as too toe curling?


poor old Godfrey was banned from Twitter.Personally I'm pleased to see him resurface.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

Poot said:


> I hope things move on quickly because I'm beginning to think that they're not giving the Brexit Festival their full attention and I'm worried that it won't be quite up to scratch.
> 
> Theresa May proposes post-Brexit Festival of Great Britain and Northern Ireland


Have Victor and Henry Mears put in a tender?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> poor old Godfrey was banned from Twitter.Personally I'm pleased to see him resurface.


I am warming once more to twitter.


----------



## andysays (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Considering the length of time it has chuntered on, and the parliamentary hours spent without anyone being any wiser about how it will resolve itself, if at all, and that Scotland is on the brink of indyref2, and who knows what will be the knock on in NI, that’s probably a fair comment.
> 
> I can’t think of any constitutional crisis to compare since the Glorious Revolution/Crown and Parliament Act.
> 
> (Yes, there’s glee there. Of course there is).


Plus, they're actually working on a Friday!!1!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I managed nearly a whole sentence of that.


Same... MY EYES!


----------



## newbie (Mar 29, 2019)

it's started btw. Cox is opening.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

newbie said:


> it's started btw. Cox is opening.


Fab. I might watch. I’m having a sick day. (I’m having problems absorbing iron amongst other things. It’s a never ending pity party here.  ).

I was explaining to a mate the other day how this was like the World Cup for me.  I’ve known him since I was 11,  but I think I lost him a little bit there. I’ve never felt more distance between us...


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> View attachment 165937


Inverness is having a "leftfest" brexit day jamboree so I've sent that to them so they can avoid massive anti-climax.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Fab. I might watch. I’m having a sick day. (I’m having problems absorbing iron amongst other things. It’s a never ending pity party here.  ).
> 
> I was explaining to a mate the other day how this was like the World Cup for me.  I’ve known him since I was 11,  but I think I lost him a little bit there. I’ve never felt more distance between us...


That sounds inconvenient. Be well! I'm volunteering at the food bank in a bit to atone for my brexit sins, wouldn't have minded staying in surrounded by pizza crusts and shame.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I was explaining to a mate the other day how this was like the World Cup for me.  I’ve known him since I was 11,  but I think I lost him a little bit there. I’ve never felt more distance between us...


I originally had today booked off, but have now moved it to 12 April. And will keep moving it as long as they do.

Fuckers will probably announce some sudden change that I can't counter, just to piss me off. And that will be the real tragedy of all this.


----------



## newbie (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Fab. I might watch. I’m having a sick day. (I’m having problems absorbing iron amongst other things. It’s a never ending pity party here.  ).
> 
> I was explaining to a mate the other day how this was like the World Cup for me.  I’ve known him since I was 11,  but I think I lost him a little bit there. I’ve never felt more distance between us...


I wish you well with your attempts to gently go rusty. As for the debate, I have to say, possibly unfashionably, that I love the precision of language and distillation of arguments.  Pages of rhetoric here summed up in a couple of sentences.


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I was explaining to a mate the other day how this was like the World Cup for me.


There's been a lot of fouls, countless dives and every match ends with a no-score draw.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 29, 2019)

Mr Peter BONE


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, yes.
> 
> But the point stands. Brexit is a significant constitutional crisis, of a magnitude not often matched.



Is there another example of parliament obstructing a referendum result for nearly three years? Has this ever happened before, or anything like it? I don't think it's overstating to say this is the worst 'constitutional crisis' this country has seen in a long, long time.


----------



## Sue (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Fab. I might watch. I’m having a sick day. (I’m having problems absorbing iron amongst other things. It’s a never ending pity party here.  ).
> 
> *I was explaining to a mate the other day how this was like the World Cup for me.*  I’ve known him since I was 11,  but I think I lost him a little bit there. I’ve never felt more distance between us...



Oh Danny . Hope you feel better soon.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I was explaining to a mate the other day how this was like the World Cup for me.  I’ve known him since I was 11,  but I think I lost him a little bit there. I’ve never felt more distance between us...


There is a a scotland joke in here, somewhere.


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

Reckon it's more like the Ashes than the world cup fwiw.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> Reckon it's more like the Ashes than the world cup fwiw.


Scotland grace neither though. Not that danny would know i reckon...


----------



## TopCat (Mar 29, 2019)

How many Labour MP's will vote for it do you all think?


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

Not many, it's not going to pass.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> https://spectator.us/time-forgave-brexit-voters/



Thought that was pretty funny tbf!


----------



## TopCat (Mar 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> Not many, it's not going to pass.


And if it does not pass, we are out on April 12th?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 29, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Thought that was pretty funny tbf!


Well humours all relative and I thought he was great on Twitter . I liked the diagram at the end.


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

TopCat said:


> And if it does not pass, we are out on April 12th?


no.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> no.


what does it mean?


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

Well, maybe. but the current political movements and currents don't point towards no-deal on the 12th IMO. Reckon it's more likely we'll be running candidates in the EU elections.


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

(participating the the EU elections is a condition of any non-may's deal extension beyond the 12th)


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

I am seriously considering sticking an insurance bet on May to resign today at 25/1.


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

To that end, TIG have just announced they're registering as a political party, 'Change' with a view to running in them.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> Well, maybe. but the current political movements and currents don't point towards no-deal on the 12th IMO. Reckon it's more likely we'll be running candidates in the EU elections.


If thats the case it will be interesting to see what UKIP polls and if Farage's Party stands


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Scotland grace neither though. Not that danny would know i reckon...


The comparison was that I enjoy the tournament, drink in hand, on the sofa, and a chuckle on my lips. It’s a spectacle.

That said, I’m listening to Ian Blackford waffling away. He’s just filling his time slot.  I was far more taken with Bill Cash’s contribution earlier.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> To that end, TIG have just announced they're registering as a political party, 'Change' with a view to running in them.



"Change" lol, as in "got any spare?"


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> If thats the case it will be interesting to see what UKIP polls and if Farage's Party stands


It will. I mainly want us to participate in them just to see what happens to the UKIP vote, how much inroads Chukka's lot make, etc etc. 

It'll be like Wimbledon.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> There is a a scotland joke in here, somewhere.



Something about a crash out.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 29, 2019)

TopCat said:


> And if it does not pass, we are out on April 12th?


Nah. General election, another hung parliament, A50 extended/paused/fudged and round we go again.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 29, 2019)

The government might have been obstructing a referendum result for nearly three years, but maybe it is because of a fundamental dilemma.
The UK government, the EU, the Republic of Ireland government, even the DUP, certainly my relatives in County Clare don't want a hard border on the island of Ireland, but 17.4 million brexit voters certainly do want one, evidenced by those people voting leave.
Surely the way the government honours the leave victory is to break out the barbed wire, machine gun nests and watchtowers?
Or maybe if I am wrong about leave voters wanting a fierce border on the island of Ireland, then leave voters can explain a different way to leave in terms of that land border.


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 29, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> "Change" lol, as in "got any spare?"



It's more "Change" as in "No Actual Change"


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

This is interesting (I didn't know this about En Marche, but it makes total sense)


----------



## quimcunx (Mar 29, 2019)

If we have a GE I'm going to have to vote Labour for the 2nd time in my life. It will be worth it if it ousts Chuka Umunna. If he wins I might cry.


----------



## gosub (Mar 29, 2019)

the Brexit karaoke party is banging :


----------



## pesh (Mar 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> This is interesting (I didn't know this about En Marche, but it makes total sense)



shouldn't it be CUK?


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

pesh said:


> shouldn't it be CUK?


Yeah, I've seen a lot of people gleefully calling them cucks this morning, like it's just fine to appropriate the language of the far right as long as it's us saying it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> To that end, TIG have just announced they're registering as a political party, 'Change' with a view to running in them.


Is that because the only votes they’ll get is from a few coppers?


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Is that because the only votes they’ll get is from a few coppers?


I think they might do ok tbh - and it would be a great launch for a general election campaign if they did. Everything to play for.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> Yeah, I've seen a lot of people gleefully calling them cucks this morning, like it's just fine to appropriate the language of the far right as long as it's us saying it.


I’ve never heard the term before, and so looked it up in Urban Dictionary. Not much wiser. Is it a widely-used truncation? What is it’s association with the far right? (Aside from stemming from an objectionable sexual politics).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I am seriously considering sticking an insurance bet on May to resign today at 25/1.


Those are decent odds, imo. You'll be annoyed when she resigns on Sunday instead.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think they might do ok tbh - and it would be a great launch for a general election campaign if they did. Everything to play for.



Yeah if Euro elections happen before a GE - bearing in mind it's a PR system based on regions - they'd do very well. Sadly. 

Need to make sure we have a GE first!


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve never heard the term before, and so looked it up in Urban Dictionary. Not much wiser. Is it a widely-used truncation?


very popular in the alt-right swamp.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve never heard the term before, and so looked it up in Urban Dictionary. Not much wiser. Is it a widely-used truncation?


yes, cuck is now shorthand for cuckold among the alt right. And a king insult for them to use


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Those are decent odds, imo. You'll be annoyed when she resigns on Sunday instead.



I am agonising. Agonising. Fiver at 25/1 returns £130.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> very popular in the alt-right swamp.


Thanks.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2019)

Change. I can here the theme tune already. Something you can drive to, leather gloves


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> yes, cuck is now shorthand for cuckold among the alt right. And a king insult for them to use


They sound delightful.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> Change. I can here the theme tune already. Something you can drive to, leather gloves


That’s Chain, isn’t it?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> They sound delightful.


It is used by the same people who use the term 'cultural marxism', but with an added twist of misogyny. There are strangely horrible groups of people in the world.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I am agonising. Agonising. Fiver at 25/1 returns £130.



Fuck it. It's done. 

RESIGN YOU HEINOUS TORY SCUMBAG.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Fuck it. It's done.
> 
> RESIGN YOU HEINOUS TORY SCUMBAG.


I reckon that's a good bet, especially given your other one. You might be sweating over the weekend, though.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I reckon that's a good bet, especially given your other one. You might be sweating over the weekend, though.



Nah as long as she's gone by end of April I'm £50 up whatever but will be delighted if she goes early!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Nah as long as she's gone by end of April I'm £50 up whatever but will be delighted if she goes early!


Tomorrow is still March.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> To that end, TIG have just announced they're registering as a political party, 'Change' with a view to running in them.


Surely that's a massively short-sighted name? Once you've changed things, what, you're going to change them _again_, and just keep changing and changing and changing. Or, once you've changed things, you'll then become Status Quo?

(I can imagine them putting some kind of "constant evolution, politics/life is never static" argument, but I'm almost certain that would be reactionary post-justification rather than thought-out policy)


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

I don't think they necessarily see themselves as a long-term project tbh


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 29, 2019)

"Tinge UK" being shared on twitter


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 29, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Surely that's a massively short-sighted name? Once you've changed things, what, you're going to change them _again_, and just keep changing and changing and changing. Or, once you've changed things, you'll then become Status Quo?
> 
> (I can imagine them putting some kind of "constant evolution, politics/life is never static" argument, but I'm almost certain that would be reactionary post-justification rather than thought-out policy)



It's more of a stupid name in that if they believe in anything, it's not too much change. Careful now.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 29, 2019)

Moderate sensible change for all.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 29, 2019)

When's the vote today?


----------



## andysays (Mar 29, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Something about a crash out.


On penalties...

...to Germany


----------



## 2hats (Mar 29, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Mr Peter BONE


Couldn't manage the final movement of the 9th?


----------



## Crispy (Mar 29, 2019)

.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

Some eu body has just said we only need pass the WA and we leave . Don't need to pass pol declaration. 

On phone can't link.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

Crispy said:


> When's the vote today?


2.30 Crispy


----------



## Crispy (Mar 29, 2019)

Oh good, someting to liven up the afternoon


----------



## andysays (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Some eu body has just said we only need pass the WA and we leave . Don't need to pass pol declaration.
> 
> On phone can't link.


It's effectively a blind leave with no deal and no idea what might come next though...


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

andysays said:


> It's effectively a blind leave with no deal and no idea what might come next though...



so's the political declaration - its a mutually agreed wish list that broadly matches motherhood and apple pie. it could, and probably would, fall at the first hurdle of anything difficult. the chances of the UK's relationship with the EU in 5 years looking much like the political declaration are, and were, not far off zero.

the A50 process was deliberately designed this way. the leaving mechanism was designed to make leaving as difficult and as scary as possible. that was its function from the outset. the function of the leaving mechanism was to stop member states from leaving.


----------



## billy_bob (Mar 29, 2019)

Probably working then, isn't it? I suspect some leave-minded people in other EU countries might be having second thoughts after watching the UK doing handstands 3-foot deep in shite for the last two and a half years. Or at least, they'll find it a lot harder to pressure their politicians into triggering the kind of process we've gone through.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 29, 2019)

May, seen later today making a big announcement...

FUCK THE LOT OF YA!


----------



## Fez909 (Mar 29, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> May, seen later today making a big announcement...
> 
> FUCK THE LOT OF YA!
> View attachment 165974


"do do do do do.

Right.

Right, then."


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

Soubry praising DUP in the Commons just now. Scum. Praising anyone who votes against May regardless of who they are.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 29, 2019)

Only one thing for it. Get hammered.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Soubry praising DUP in the Commons just now. Scum. Praising anyone who votes against May regardless of who they are.



Proves beyond doubt what twisty turny, back stabbing weasels we always knew they all are.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 29, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Only one thing for it. Get hammered.



quality


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 29, 2019)




----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 29, 2019)

She speaks! But can't stop wringing her hands.


----------



## billy_bob (Mar 29, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Soubry praising DUP in the Commons just now. Scum. Praising anyone who votes against May regardless of who they are.



Expediency - it's the political ideology everyone's talking about! What's the right thing to do? Let's wait and see what'll benefit us most, shall we?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

So, if she gets this through, she resigns at some point before the next phase.

But if she loses - naivety alert: surely common decency means she resigns at tea time? _Surely_? Despite her ultra-limpet skills, her deal does today.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

I’m oblivious to all this at the moment.
I’m watching The Spy Who Came in From the Cold instead. Less twists, more reality.


----------



## gosub (Mar 29, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I’m oblivious to all this at the moment.
> I’m watching The Spy Who Came in From the Cold instead. Less twists, more reality.



You could stay the same of Never Ending Story


----------



## xenon (Mar 29, 2019)

Result due in circa 14:45? I'm at home with the radio on. 

It is quite exciting..


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, if she gets this through, she resigns at some point before the next phase.
> 
> But if she loses - naivety alert: surely common decency means she resigns at tea time? _Surely_? Despite her ultra-limpet skills, her deal does today.



The Mogg was saying on Tuesday (?) after the 1922 meeting at which she said she'd resign if the deal was voted through, that if it wasn't she'd be quite entitled to stay on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I’m oblivious to all this at the moment.
> I’m watching The Spy Who Came in From the Cold instead. Less twists, more reality.


it's at times like this you wonder why there might not be a parliamentary expedition to the south pole, touring the british antarctic territory, in which each night a lot might be drawn to see whose turn it would be to emulate the selfless captain oates and 'be gone some time'. of course you'd need a few sturdy people along to ensure that they spent sufficient time outside and didn't try to sneak back in under the eaves of the tents but a bit of cold steel should deter them. they don't like it up 'em, you know, mps


----------



## xenon (Mar 29, 2019)

What is this WA people are talking about? May MV3 with weird amendment? (I've missed some Brexitness last couple of days.)

Withdrawel agreement, of course. Doh.


----------



## Patteran (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve never heard the term before, and so looked it up in Urban Dictionary. Not much wiser. Is it a widely-used truncation? What is it’s association with the far right? (Aside from stemming from an objectionable sexual politics).



At the risk of overanalysing a playground keyboard insult, in its original context on the chan boards there was typically an implicit or explicit racialised aspect to the insult - that it was the hypersexualised other who had stolen the (white) girlfriend. It ties in to the sexual anxiety that often seems to seep out of the far right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

gosub said:


> You could stay the same of Never Ending Story


it's like that bit at the end of the film of brighton rock where the record pinky made gets stuck and it goes 'i love you -- i love you' etc


----------



## elbows (Mar 29, 2019)

The answer is that she will reveal some new dance moves, I presume.

Given the political context, she may as well get some tips from the Northern Ireland finals of the 1981 disco dancing competition.


----------



## chilango (Mar 29, 2019)

What if she wins?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> What if she wins?


then we'll make her dance, to dance until she drops, with the dancing defrocked priest to show her how it's done as he prances to the melodies of such irish classics as 'boys of wexford'


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> What if she wins?





Argonia said:


> If it passes I will streak naked through London with a sausage up my bum.





ETA: Am I wrong in hoping it'll pass?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

Andrew Percy, Tory MP local to me, slagging Labour off for Brexit not happening 
And telling an "hilarious" tale of how he was supposed to be best man at a friend's wedding "but he's promised he'll be there for the next one"


----------



## chilango (Mar 29, 2019)

Anybody else notice how Kuenssberg has started saying "this place" in an affectation of parliamentary tradition or something.

Sees herself sat in there at some point you reckon?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Andrew Percy, Tory MP local to me, slagging Labour off for Brexit not happening
> And telling an "hilarious" tale of how he was supposed to be best man at a friend's wedding "but he's promised he'll be there for the next one"


Yeah, that was icky.

I would have thought today would have been like the World Cup final, you just don't organise a wedding that day! Maybe they got a deal...


----------



## elbows (Mar 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> What if she wins?



I reckon she already missed the deadline for the 1981 Northern Ireland disco championships.

Oh, the vote in parliament. Well, I suppose I do not rule out a victory for her today, but only because I do not wish to leave room to be surprised by events.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Yeah, that was icky.
> 
> I would have thought today would have been like the World Cup final, you just don't organise a wedding that day! Maybe they got a deal...


About the only deal actually happening today amirite


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

S☼I said:


> About the only deal actually happening today amirite


We should be doing this routine on one of those media platforms outside of Westminster.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> Anybody else notice how Kuenssberg has started saying "this place" in an affectation of parliamentary tradition or something.
> 
> Sees herself sat in there at some point you reckon?


they love it. This bad drama of privately educated posh people doing malcom tucker impressions off record and west wing blandness on camera. The age, the traditions. Mallory Towers wankers.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

Always get really mad when I see these twats in the HoC. 
One of the major rules in the Year 4 class I was in last year was "don't talk when someone else is". 
Shut the fuck up you knobbers


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> ETA: Am I wrong in hoping it'll pass?


Argonia will be halfway up oxford street before the speaker and tellers admit they made it up


----------



## elbows (Mar 29, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> they love it. This bad drama of privately educated posh people doing malcom tucker impressions of record and west wing blandness on camera. The age, the traditions. Mallory Towers wankers.



Seduced by a dead sheep. Giddy on the smell of stale power.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, if she gets this through, she resigns at some point before the next phase.
> 
> But if she loses - naivety alert: surely common decency means she resigns at tea time? _Surely_? Despite her ultra-limpet skills, her deal does today.



I fucking hope so. 

If she's got any sense she will. If she doesn't, she'll have to go to the EU and ask for another extension. Who might well say "Only if you go" at this point, and that really would be the ultimate humiliation.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

Keep Calm and Go to the Pub.

Studying hard. The Swan, Chaddesley Corbett, Worcestershire.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

Just saw someone carrying a coffin into Parliament Square 

I'm just down the road, tempted to go down and have a look


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> View attachment 165978
> Keep Calm and Go to the Pub.
> 
> Studying hard. The Swan, Chaddesley Corbett, Worcestershire.


i see you've gone roman with a pint of watered wine


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

That burger looks dead nice


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> View attachment 165978
> Keep Calm and Go to the Pub.
> 
> Studying hard. The Swan, Chaddesley Corbett, Worcestershire.


_French_ fries??! On today of all days


----------



## 2hats (Mar 29, 2019)

Your pint of vimto is awfully weak.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

I might have to persuade Mrs SI to go for a payday takeaway later and eat a dirty burger myself


----------



## chilango (Mar 29, 2019)

Any chance of fisticuffs in Parliament Square?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> Any chance of fisticuffs in Parliament Square?


If I go down later I could have a Fight Club-style dust up with myself?

BBC reference the crowds every now and again, seems to be mostly pro-Brexit from what they're saying. Actually looks like a lot of people just hanging out on the grass on a nice sunny day


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

Ming have you paid your tenner to the server fund by the way?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> _French_ fries??! On today of all days



It's in honour of Normandy and Aquitaine. Shortly to be reclaimed.


----------



## elbows (Mar 29, 2019)

2hats said:


> Your pint of vimto is awfully weak.



Vimto rations have gone up again.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

"With all my heart I commend this motion to the house"

Not the biggest commitment there, Theresa...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> "With all my heart I commend this motion to the house"
> 
> Not the biggest commitment there, Theresa...


it's easier to say that if, like tm, you have a great frozen lump where your heart should be


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 29, 2019)

45


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

S☼I said:


> That burger looks dead nice



It was _delicious. _I commend this burger to the house.

It's possible that I may submit an amendment shortly, as - perhaps amusingly - there's an _Eton mess _on the menu....


----------



## chilango (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> It was _delicious. _I commend this burger to the house.
> 
> It's possible that I may *submit an amendment* shortly, as - perhaps amusingly - there's an _Eton mess _on the menu....



 Do you mean go for a shit?


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 29, 2019)

seems busy in parliament the now...


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

Oooh look, some posh young people wanting to revoke article 50


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 29, 2019)

"Where were *you *when MV3 was cast ? "


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I’m oblivious to all this at the moment.
> I’m watching The Spy Who Came in From the Cold instead. Less twists, more reality.



Is it relevant that A Night to Remember is now on!


----------



## xenon (Mar 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> Do you mean go for a shit?



An early day motion?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 29, 2019)

Noes have it, maj. 58


----------



## Argonia (Mar 29, 2019)

Knew it wouldn't pass


----------



## xenon (Mar 29, 2019)

And that's numberwang!


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

58


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> "Where were *you *when MV3 was cast ? "


Who can remember? They all sort of merge into one after a while.


----------



## Flavour (Mar 29, 2019)

Lost again


----------



## mwgdrwg (Mar 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Noes have it, maj. 58



When's MV4?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

All that and she got about 30 more than last time


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

Go now, Theresa. Don't forget to forget to write.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> When's MV4?



About 11pm?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 29, 2019)

Well there's a surprise.


----------



## xenon (Mar 29, 2019)

So MV4 next Tuesday, right?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

Go on now go, walk out the door, don’t turn around now......


----------



## Ted Striker (Mar 29, 2019)

Goid bless the ERG simpletons that (have backed themselves into a corner and) are holding out for a more right-wing Brexit, when the direction of travel is solely leftward.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 29, 2019)

How can she stay on?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)




----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

I’m shocked. Shocked. Shocked, I say.


----------



## chilango (Mar 29, 2019)

So crash out in two weeks or a loooong delay?

(I still think A50 will get revoked)


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> So crash out in two weeks or a loooong delay?


I now want a long delay followed by a two week crash out


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 29, 2019)

So who here thinks That Marcon, Poland and Hungary will not veto a further extension?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m shocked. Shocked. Shocked, I say.



danny la rouge, I suspect your pants are afire?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 29, 2019)

Well at least the sausages are now safe from being inserted into Argonia's bum.


----------



## editor (Mar 29, 2019)

The disaster keeps on disasterifying.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Well at least the sausages are now safe from being inserted into Argonia's bum.



((((Sausages))))


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> danny la rouge, I suspect your pants are afire?


If I was a betting man, and I am, I doubt very much whether I’d have made any money today.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> So who here thinks That Marcon, Poland and Hungary will not veto a further extension?



I don't think they will - the French are getting too much pleasure from this shitshow, and the claims of 'investigative journalists' that Falange had sewn up the veto's with his far right mates are just bollocks.

Patience is undoubtedly wearing thin, but the prize for the EU is for a chastened UK to revoke A50 and remain. Vetoing anything shoots that fox dead, so they won't do it.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

Theresa May couldn't even win a best of 5.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Mar 29, 2019)

MV1 - Catastrofuck
MV2 - Omnifuck
MV3 - Infinifuck


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 29, 2019)

Hahahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 29, 2019)

Lol


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> I don't think they will - the French are getting too much pleasure from this shitshow, and the claims of 'investigative journalists' that Falange had sewn up the veto's with his far right mates are just bollocks.
> 
> Patience is undoubtedly wearing thin, but the prize for the EU is for a chastened UK to revoke A50 and remain. Vetoing anything shoots that fox dead, so they won't do it.



Except currently there's a huge anti EU movement going on within the political classes of Hungary and Poland, and trust me when I say deals have already been made behind closed doors and the UK extremists


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 29, 2019)

Well that went as expected.

I wonder if she will try cross-party working for a softer Brexit with a customs union. Logic would dictate that should be the next step, but TM's history suggests she'd rather stand down than do that.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 29, 2019)

The Visegrád group in the EU currently solely exist as a blockade and to stir shit within the EU powerhouse and throw their weight around. 

This is the kind of epic trolling is right up the Visegrád's street.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 29, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Well that went as expected.
> 
> I wonder if she will try cross-party working for a softer Brexit with a customs union. Logic would dictate that should be the next step, but TM's history suggests she'd rather stand down than do that.



She'll die on a cross before she'll do something so reasonable.


----------



## xenon (Mar 29, 2019)

Emergency EU council summet on April 10th.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Logic would dictate that should be the next step


I'm starting to suspect she skipped that particular PPE class.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

I hope there’s An Announcement. She’ll keep the press waiting for 30 mins, then say nothing. “We have a decision to make”. Or something like that.

That’d be great.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> If I was a betting man, and I am, I doubt very much whether I’d have made any money today.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I hope there’s An Announcement. She’ll keep the press waiting for 30 mins, then say nothing. “We have a decision to make”. Or something like that.
> 
> That’d be great.



Staff at number ten dragging the lectern out for us all to watch her walk up to it and say.
Hmmmm, well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Staff at number ten dragging the lectern out for us all to watch her walk up to it and say.
> Hmmmm, well.


i look forward to the day when they erect a gallows or guillotine where the lectern used to rest


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Staff at number ten dragging the lectern out for us all to watch her walk up to it and say.
> Hmmmm, well.


Ooh, she should dance! 

What ABBA sing would work best?

Waterloo?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I hope there’s An Announcement. She’ll keep the press waiting for 30 mins, then say nothing. “We have a decision to make”. Or something like that.
> 
> That’d be great.



Holibobs. Walking weekend in north wales. Back on monday, or maybe a cheeky Tuesday.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 29, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Staff at number ten dragging the guillotine out for us all to watch her walk up to it and say.
> Hmmmm, well.



ffy


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Holibobs. Walking weekend in north wales. Back on monday, or maybe a cheeky Tuesday.




“It’s just a coincidence, I’ve had it booked for ages, and I’d lose the deposit...”


----------



## Flavour (Mar 29, 2019)

we all know there will be NO CHANGES to the withdrawal agreement offered, so all this shite about "adding on a customs union" is nonesense. it won't happen. it's No Deal or revoke.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Ooh, she should dance!
> 
> What ABBA sing would work best?
> 
> Waterloo?


Gimme gimme gimme a plan after midnight


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 29, 2019)

general election.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

No, actually this


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 29, 2019)

Flavour said:


> we all know there will be NO CHANGES to the withdrawal agreement offered, so all this shite about "adding on a customs union" is nonesense. it won't happen. it's No Deal or revoke.


If you mean nothing will be offered from the EU side that's not true I think. The current deal is the only deal on offer _given May's red lines_ (which includes no customs union). Corbyn has been going around discussing a softer Brexit with EU politicians and allegedly has been well received.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> “It’s just a coincidence, I’ve had it booked for ages, and I’d lose the deposit...”



'normally i'd just suck it up, but the forecast is great and it's got a hot tub, so bollocks to it...'


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

Four Lab MPs for May this time: Flint, Mann, Cooper (Rosie), Barron


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 29, 2019)

Corbyn has managed to keep the labour party together through brexit and destroy the government.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 29, 2019)

Which of the no deal headbangers did a U turn?


----------



## marty21 (Mar 29, 2019)

So on Brexit day  we could still leave with no deal, revoke A50, leave with a deal (mv4 ) or not leave at all   all going swimmingly -


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> Corbyn has managed to keep the labour party together through brexit and destroy the government.


iirc it's been 3, 5 and 4 for the deal in the three meaningless votes. Wankers the lot of them, but 98 per cent is not bad.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Which of the no deal headbangers did a U turn?


Rees-Mogg for one.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Four Lab MPs for May this time: Flint, Mann, Cooper (Rosie), Barron



One ward in Flint’s constituency had a leave vote of nearly 86%.
She only has a approximate 4000 majority. Not big in the former workers republic of South Yorkshire.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

marty21 said:


> So on Brexit day  we could still leave with no deal, revoke A50, leave with a deal (mv4 ) or not leave at all   all going swimmingly -


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Rees-Mogg for one.



Did that mop haired toff cunt Johnson?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> One ward in Flint’s constituency had a leave vote of nearly 86%.
> She only has a approximate 4000 majority. Not big in the former workers republic of South Yorkshire.


Doesn't mean she has to support _this deal_.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Did that mop haired toff cunt Johnson?


Yep. Him too. Here's the list:

How did each MP vote on the withdrawal agreement?


----------



## Winot (Mar 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Rees-Mogg for one.



and Raaaab


----------



## 2hats (Mar 29, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Did that mop haired toff cunt Johnson?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Ooh, she should dance!
> 
> What ABBA sing would work best?
> 
> Waterloo?


The night before larry Terri was stretched


----------



## Crispy (Mar 29, 2019)

May just has to wait till after next Thursday and then the trend line for MV vote margins hits zero



No sweat


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

May is admirably Beckettian, it has to be said.  



> Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Doesn't mean she has to support _this deal_.



I know, I cannot stand her. She is a total opportunist. Always has been since she got parachuted in. She will do anything to hang on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I know, I cannot stand her. She is a total opportunist. Always has been since she got parachuted in. She will do anything to hang on.


maybe they could leave the parachute on the plane next time


----------



## 8ball (Mar 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> May is admirably Beckettian, it has to be said.



Except for the "failing better" bit.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 29, 2019)

Crispy said:


> May just has to wait till after next Thursday and then the trend line for MV vote margins hits zero
> 
> View attachment 165985
> 
> No sweat


I know that's about as 'meaningful' as a Meaningful Vote or whatever, but it does help illustrate that her strategy did _nearly _come off.  She identified better than me certainly, that the ERG lot would mostly crumble under the first strains of real pressure.


----------



## LDC (Mar 29, 2019)

Anyone been down Parliament Square? Looks totally bonkers, a mix of Mad Max in the Thunderdome and outraged of Tunbridge Wells on crack.


----------



## andysays (Mar 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> What if she wins?


Keeping up your traditional standard of political prediction, I see


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Anyone been down Parliament Square? Looks totally bonkers, a mix of Mad Max in the Thunderdome and outraged of Tunbridge Wells on crack.


I heard an orange marching band had turned up


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> I heard an orange marching band had turned up



Must be serious, out of season shenanigans!


----------



## chilango (Mar 29, 2019)

andysays said:


> Keeping up your traditional standard of political prediction, I see



Don't jinx it.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> MV1 - Catastrofuck
> MV2 - Omnifuck
> MV3 - Infinifuck


MV4-clusterfuck...


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

Number ten post defeat huddle stating May is bringing her deal back again next Thursday against the customs union vote!!!!

Sky News.


----------



## LDC (Mar 29, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> I heard an orange marching band had turned up



I really hope there's some Freeman on the land types down there giving out leaflets about how people can avoid Brexit/Remain by declaring themselves independent citizens or whatever. Full house of loonies!


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

The bloke with the coffin is lamenting the death of democracy


----------



## Cid (Mar 29, 2019)

How is she not gone yet?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

S☼I said:


> The bloke with the coffin is lamenting the death of democracy



Bless.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

So, Monday: small majority for customs union.
Then: May says no.
Then: Corbyn splutters something about a general election
Then:May ignores him
Then: May introduces mv4 (different in that it has a sprig of parsley on top)
(Ad infinitum)
Then: somebody notices we've left the EU without realising.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, Monday: small majority for customs union.
> Then: May says no.
> Then: Corbyn splutters something about a general election
> Then:May ignores him
> ...



It’s almost like a conspiracy.


----------



## andysays (Mar 29, 2019)

No sign of any change in approach... 


> *'We are at least going in the right direction' - No 10 source*
> Downing Street says that despite the government losing the vote, it is not an "inevitability" that the UK will have to take part in the European Parliament elections in May.





> A No 10 source tells the Press Association the prime minister will continue to seek support in the Commons for her deal. "Clearly it was not the result we wanted. But, that said, we have had a number of senior Conservative colleagues who have felt able to vote with the Government today. They have done so in higher numbers than previously," the source says. "Clearly there is more work to do. We are at least going in the right direction."


----------



## chilango (Mar 29, 2019)

Any chance of another vonc yet?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

Wonder if Tommy Robinson ends up standing for ukip in the EU elections then?


----------



## Cid (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, Monday: small majority for customs union.
> Then: May says no.
> Then: Corbyn splutters something about a general election
> Then:May ignores him
> ...



Yeah... it does seem to be going that way. I’m assuming any back room chat about no confidence has gone nowhere.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

andysays said:


> No sign of any change in approach...


Fuck me, she really is going to put the same deal to the vote again!


----------



## Argonia (Mar 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> Any chance of another vonc yet?



Haven't the fucking Lib Dems said they would vote against a vonc?


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 29, 2019)

I assume this thing is available electronically somewhere ?
So comparisons can be made and words searched and replaced ...

It reminds me a little of a major court case in the USA where Creationists were trying to sneak their bonkers ideas into schoolbooks and they simply replaced all mentions of "created" with "intelligently designed" in a schoolbook...


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Haven't the fucking Lib Dems said they would vote against a vonc?


and tiggers, iirc.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

> But she did narrow the loss and, perhaps crucially, won more votes than the customs union and second referendum options did earlier this week.
> 
> If Monday's fresh round of *indicative votes* fails to come up with an alternative plan that can win the support of a majority of MPs, Mrs May could claim her deal is the most popular.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

In other words, least terrible
FAITH IN POLITICIANS RESTORED


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> trust me when I say deals have already been made behind closed doors and the UK extremists



Why would we trust you? What inside track do you have on this?


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 29, 2019)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Except currently there's a huge anti EU movement going on within the political classes of Hungary and Poland, and trust me when I say deals have already been made behind closed doors and the UK extremists


Hungary and Poland are both big net recipients from the EU. There are far more powerful forces that can put pressure on their respective governments than a bunch of nomark UK extremists.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

Thought David Cameron would have been out and about today, y'know, short sleeved shirt, joshing with people in Parliament Square. No sign of him, can't understand it really.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Thought David Cameron would have been out and about today, y'know, short sleeved shirt, joshing with people in Parliament Square. No sign of him, can't understand it really.



There was a bloke sat at the table next to me in the sunny pub garden who looked so like DC that I must have looked at him 50 times in 10 minutes. It wasn't him.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> There was a bloke sat at the table next to me in the sunny pub garden who looked so like DC that I must have looked at him 50 times in 10 minutes. It wasn't him.


Did he order the ham platter?


----------



## Poot (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> There was a bloke sat at the table next to me in the sunny pub garden who looked so like DC that I must have looked at him 50 times in 10 minutes. It wasn't him.


Did he have a black eye? A bloody nose? Poor man. If you're having a shit day, think how he must feel.


----------



## agricola (Mar 29, 2019)

andysays said:


> BBC reporting some historian calling the current situation the biggest constitutional crisis since 1688





Crispy said:


> May just has to wait till after next Thursday and then the trend line for MV vote margins hits zero
> 
> View attachment 165985
> 
> No sweat



oh the humanity!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Finally sat down to rolling news. Tim Martin of  Wetherspoons demonstrating at least a basic understanding of how the EU functions interspersed with mad right wing shit. That him and his ilk are demonstrating this knowledge  and the left are not is a huge problem and will continue to be one regardless of the outcome.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hungary and Poland are both big net recipients from the EU. There are far more powerful forces that can put pressure on their respective governments than a bunch of nomark UK extremists.



They are big net recipients, but the bone of contention is the (Germans and French mainly) businesses buying up a lot of farmland, factories and supermarkets after communism when the price was cheap, and paying staff and farmers peanuts now for produce.

So yeah, huge contentious issue. While they are given large sums in subsides the privately owner French and German businesses extract huge amount of profits from land and labour which is then redistributed outside of Poland (and Hungary).


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

2hats said:


> Did he order the ham platter?



No, he had a steak sandwich. It came with rocket, parmesan, and a horseradish mayonnaise, and chips. His wife/girlfriend/friend/work associate had the same.

They didn't have desert.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> They didn't have desert.


Well, you've given us a few things to go by.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> They didn't have desert.


Do you mean they prorogued the meal or revoked the menu? We need clarity, there's very little time left.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> They didn't have *desert*.


So they didn't leave any kids behind then?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 29, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> They are big net recipients, but the bone of contention is the (Germans and French mainly) businesses buying up a lot of farmland, factories and supermarkets after communism when the price was cheap, and paying staff and farmers peanuts now for produce.
> 
> So yeah, huge contentious issue. While they are given large sums in subsides the privately owner French and German businesses extract huge amount of profits from land and labour which is then redistributed outside of Poland (and Hungary).


That's a good point, but I don't see what nomark UK brexit catastrophists have to offer them. Certainly not a lot directy.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Mar 29, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Finally sat down to rolling news. Tim Martin of  Wetherspoons demonstrating at least a basic understanding of how the EU functions interspersed with mad right wing shit. That him and his ilk are demonstrating this knowledge  and the left are not is a huge problem and will continue to be one regardless of the outcome.



They are broadcasting the speeches today? Can't recall speeches from the remain march being broadcast. Funny that.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's a good point, but I don't see what nomark UK brexit catastrophists have to offer them. Certainly not a lot directy.



Well so far it's the British catastrophists that have been engaged in talks for a Vito and a crash out. Should no deal happen, the catastrophists can then say "well at least we got deals with fellow Europeans, unlike you losers who managed to do fuck all". Even if it's just right of stay for Brits (Poland are due to vote on this soon) 

What it offers the Visegrád group is recognition as an actual power as a blok, and what the loon fringe gets out of it is looking more competent than the working government back in the UK. Plus managing to boast they delivered Brexit to the people.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 29, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> British catastrophists



Aren't you a British catastrophist?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Do you mean they prorogued the meal or revoked the menu? We need clarity, there's very little time left.



I think rather that they finished at the time mandated by their choices - there seemed to be no discussion of whether to have dessert (thank you 2hats ), they merely finished their meal, spent a few minutes chatting and drinking, then left.


----------



## tommers (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> I think rather that they finished at the time mandated by their choices - there seemed to be no discussion of whether to have dessert (thank you 2hats ), they merely finished their meal, spent a few minutes chatting and drinking, then left.



At least this time he finished something before legging it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> There was a bloke sat at the table next to me in the sunny pub garden who looked so like DC that I must have looked at him 50 times in 10 minutes. It wasn't him.


I think you would have a good case for plastic surgery on the nhs if you were in that unfortunate position.


----------



## tommers (Mar 29, 2019)




----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

tommers said:


>


Boooo to ITV's censored version without the punchline!



And the remix:


----------



## tommers (Mar 29, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Boooo to ITV's censored version without the punchline!
> 
> 
> 
> And the remix:


Oh. I didn't watch it, i just assumed. Pointless buggers.


----------



## binka (Mar 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 165982


Came in first at 5/1. Drinks are on Pickman's model


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> They are broadcasting the speeches today? Can't recall speeches from the remain march being broadcast. Funny that.


Yeah the BBC is a well oiled leave propaganda machine broadcasting nothing but “BREGGSIT IS GONNA BE LIT MOTHERFUCKERS” stories on an hourly basis.


----------



## A380 (Mar 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> No, he had a steak sandwich. It came with rocket, parmesan, and a horseradish mayonnaise, and chips. His wife/girlfriend/friend/work associate had the same.
> 
> They didn't have desert.


Did the woman with him look like SamCam? 

Pictures? Plus I hope you followed them to the car park and recorded the number plate of their car(s). Otherwise stalker level = amateur.


----------



## chilango (Mar 29, 2019)

Has it kicked off yet?


----------



## Crispy (Mar 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> Has it kicked off yet?


Nah still in the pre-match. You've got time to go to the bar.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> Has it kicked off yet?


You've got to be very careful with those union jack bowlers they are wearing. Steel rimmed, oddjob style.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 29, 2019)

A380 said:


> Did the woman with him look like SamCam?...



No. No idea about the cars, I was _studying hard _in the sunshine....


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

I haven’t enjoyed a six o’clock news as much ever. We laughed for the first 20 minutes. What a treat.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 29, 2019)

binka said:


> Came in first at 5/1. Drinks are on Pickman's model



FFS! I looked at it & was a bit wtf


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

Sounds like she really is having a 4th go - shittest Terminator ever. Once you've had a 4th go you are into mad territory. 'Yeah, well we had 3 goes at it, but did the sensible thing after and resigned' >>>>>> 'failed on number 4 eh? Ah well, may as well have a few more tries. At least until infinity'.


----------



## gosub (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I haven’t enjoyed a six o’clock news as much ever. We laughed for the first 20 minutes. What a treat.



It's this sort of attitude, that will get the country sacked.  Mrs May has been very patient with us.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

gosub said:


> It's this sort of attitude, that will get the country sacked.  Mrs May has been very patient with us.


She has indeed. Every day she has to go home to her money laundering husband and face the inevitable question: '_how did it go today dear?'
- _another fail, look I just don't want to talk about it. Factions everywhere!
_'I know I know, it's very similar for me, dealing with the Colombian cartels'_


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> She has indeed. Every day she has to go home to her money laundering husband and face the inevitable question: '_how did it go today dear?'
> - _another fail, look I just don't want to talk about it. Factions everywhere!
> _'I know I know, it's very similar for me, dealing with the Colombian cartels'_


Perhaps the cartel do a 2 for 1 offer in which couples can be immured in the same concrete pillar


----------



## gosub (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> She has indeed. Every day she has to go home to her money laundering husband and face the inevitable question: '_how did it go today dear?'
> - _another fail, look I just don't want to talk about it. Factions everywhere!
> _'I know I know, it's very similar for me, dealing with the Colombian cartels'_


and he still finds time to put the bins out.

GAWD BLESS THE PAIR OF EM


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 29, 2019)

Suffering fuck, surely she can’t go for a _4th_ attempt?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

gosub said:


> and he still finds time to put the bins out.
> 
> GAWD BLESS THE PAIR OF EM


Money laundering, shit primeministering and bin promptness. That's what keeps a marriage together.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Suffering fuck, surely she can’t go for a _4th_ attempt?


She'll bring it back with a false beard.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> She'll bring it back with a false beard.


. She’d actually deserve a tiny bit of respect if she did that.

And put on a funny voice. Do an accent she can’t pull off. I’d love that.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> . She’d actually deserve a tiny bit of respect if she did that.


It'll be like the stoning scene in Life of Brian -_ 'are there any women old Withdrawal Agreements in here?'_


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> She'll bring it back with a false beard.


Tommy Robinson did it better


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I haven’t enjoyed a six o’clock news as much ever. We laughed for the first 20 minutes. What a treat.



We're watching bbc news in the pub. Solid entertainment for all the family


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Mar 29, 2019)

Let's say, for argument's sake, that one of the indicative votes gets a significant majority on Monday.  Ken Clarke's amendment perhaps, or the put it to a referendum one, with a healthy 20 or 30 vote majority.

Theresa May says "no, stop getting it wrong and vote my deal through."

Who exactly is of sufficient authority to drag the deluded arsehole kicking and screaming out of the chamber?


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Sounds like she really is having a 4th go - shittest Terminator ever. Once you've had a 4th go you are into mad territory. 'Yeah, well we had 3 goes at it, but did the sensible thing after and resigned' >>>>>> 'failed on number 4 eh? Ah well, may as well have a few more tries. At least until infinity'.


It's a bit rich calling it a meaningful vote when she just keeps bringing the damn thing back and asking them to vote again. If We now get a long extension she'll probably just use most of it to bring back her agreement every couple of weeks and try again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Let's say, for argument's sake, that one of the indicative votes gets a significant majority on Monday.  Ken Clarke's amendment perhaps, or the put it to a referendum one, with a healthy 20 or 30 vote majority.
> 
> Theresa May says "no, stop getting it wrong and vote my deal through."
> 
> Who exactly is of sufficient authority to drag the deluded arsehole kicking and screaming out of the chamber?


The queen's champion and standard bearer of england, francis dymoke


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Mar 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> The queen's champion and standard bearer of england, francis dymoke



I bet he's at home as we speak, doing stretches.  Ever ready, finally his long awaited moment.


----------



## Winot (Mar 29, 2019)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Let's say, for argument's sake, that one of the indicative votes gets a significant majority on Monday.  Ken Clarke's amendment perhaps, or the put it to a referendum one, with a healthy 20 or 30 vote majority.
> 
> Theresa May says "no, stop getting it wrong and vote my deal through."
> 
> Who exactly is of sufficient authority to drag the deluded arsehole kicking and screaming out of the chamber?



The indicative votes have no legal authority (hence the name). However in theory Parliament could pass a bill requiring the chosen option to happen. If May didn’t support it she’d have to go.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> I bet he's at home as we speak, doing stretches.  Ever ready, finally his long awaited moment.


Running the whetstone over the blade of excelsior, the longsword enchanted by dr dee and díon fortune


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Mar 29, 2019)

Winot said:


> The indicative votes have no legal authority (hence the name). However in theory Parliament could pass a bill requiring the chosen option to happen. If May didn’t support it she’d have to go.



I'm aware that the indicative votes are just that.  But on the back of her "they've told us what they don't want, but not what they do want" speech, surely she could only get more blatant if she put her fingers in her ears and shouted "la la la la NOT LISTENING" as the results were read out.

She has to go, full stop.  And without her version of Brexit, she's a PM leaving literally nothing as a legacy - even pig fucker could claim same sex marriage, May has absolutely nothing resembling an achievement.  I'd almost feel sorry for her, if I didn't despise every fibre of her being.


----------



## Winot (Mar 29, 2019)

I imagine that in practice the Speaker would give a lot of power to backbenchers and make things very difficult for May. 

Agree with rest of your post


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 29, 2019)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Let's say, for argument's sake, that one of the indicative votes gets a significant majority on Monday.  Ken Clarke's amendment perhaps, or the put it to a referendum one, with a healthy 20 or 30 vote majority.
> 
> Theresa May says "no, stop getting it wrong and vote my deal through."
> 
> Who exactly is of sufficient authority to drag the deluded arsehole kicking and screaming out of the chamber?



Nobody, and therein lies the rub.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> She'll bring it back with a false beard.



"There's something familiar about this Sara Yethem." Or should that be Sam Heartey?


----------



## Supine (Mar 29, 2019)

I can't see how parliament can stop maybot crashing us out with no deal. She has said it all along. She'll try won't she


----------



## binka (Mar 29, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> FFS! I looked at it & was a bit wtf


If we ask nicely he might tell us what'll win the grand national next week


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 29, 2019)

she wants to have another go at  smashing head against a the wall. cant somebody put this demented, obsessive, pathetic, tyrannical tut-tutter out of her misery?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 29, 2019)

Alongside the madness of trying a fourth time, it really is bemusing to consider the possibility of someone, having voted against her three times, thinking "no, you know what, _this_ time I'm convinced...".


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 29, 2019)

Supine said:


> I can't see how parliament can stop maybot crashing us out with no deal. She has said it all along. She'll try won't she


Most people are too busy arguing to notice tbf.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> she wants to have another go at  smashing head against a the wall. cant somebody put this demented, obsessive, pathetic, tyrannical tut-tutter out of her misery?


A job for francis dymoke


----------



## elbows (Mar 29, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

elbows said:


>



Mind bleach anyone?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Supine said:


> I can't see how parliament can stop maybot crashing us out with no deal. She has said it all along. She'll try won't she


They could have voted either to revoke article 50 or accept the deal on offer- the deal itself being something she also had little control over. As much of a cunt as May is, I’m not sure what it is people are expecting from another PM. Assuming you are into that sort of thing(Westminster handbags) it’s basically Eastenders from where I’m sat....


----------



## Balbi (Mar 29, 2019)




----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Mind bleach anyone?


Yes please, bleach the last two years if you are offering


----------



## sunnysidedown (Mar 29, 2019)

Did I hear John Snow correctly on C4 News saying he’s never seen so many white people in the same place?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)




----------



## Supine (Mar 29, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> Did I hear John Snow correctly on C4 News saying he’s never seen so many white people in the same place?



Yes


----------



## 2hats (Mar 29, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> Did I hear John Snow correctly on C4 News saying he’s never seen so many white people in the same place?


Yes.


----------



## peterkro (Mar 29, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> Did I hear John Snow correctly on C4 News saying he’s never seen so many white people in the same place?


Yes you did as he finished up.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)

Supine said:


> Yes



What was he describing?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> View attachment 166019


I called that as well! I said multiple rejections leading to a crescendo of fuck knows and May standing down. *winning*

No betting option sadly


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> What was he describing?


Its not so much what he was describing as what he was suggesting i.e that black people didn't vote to leave.Suspect he might be wrong on that point.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> Its not so much what he was describing as what he was suggesting i.e that black people didn't vote to leave.Suspect he might be wrong on that point.


Aye it’s kinda normal to see loads of white people gathered together in a country where 81.9 per cent of the population is white.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Aye it’s kinda normal to see loads of white people gathered together in a country where 81.9 per cent of the population is white.


Yeh but in a city with a decent proportion of people of different hues it's unusual to see so much gammon


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> Its not so much what he was describing as what he was suggesting i.e that black people didn't vote to leave.Suspect he might be wrong on that point.



Given there are far fewer Black people in the country, he is probably right, obviously! Proportionately, he is probably right too IMO. I don't think anyone should under estimate what damage Farage and the frothing edl types did in terms of marginalising Black people and undermining the legitimacy of the left wing leave arguments.


----------



## Supine (Mar 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> What was he describing?



The March / Leave crowd.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh but in a city with a decent proportion of people of different hues it's unusual to see so much gammon


Fair play, I anticipated this response as I wrote it  


I reject the implication that my face is gammon though!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Given there are far fewer Black people in the country, he is probably right, obviously! Proportionately, he is probably right too IMO. I don't think anyone should under estimate what damage Farage and the frothing edl types did in terms of marginalising Black people and undermining the legitimacy of the left wing leave arguments.


Totally!  the left also helped Farage there too by saying to left leavers “you are in bed with Farage.”


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Fair play, I anticipated this response as I wrote it
> 
> 
> I reject the implication that my face is gammon though!


It is now you're blushing so but yeh in a minute you'll be back to your normal hue


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

The most notable thing about that march is there were few people at it. They don’t represent most leavers, do they?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)

Supine said:


> The March / Leave crowd.



Have been at work until late today...snippets I saw online had far too many Tommy/yellow vest/wanker types for my liking. Given the demographics of the city that is relevant and fucking ugly tbh.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> The most notable thing about that march is there were few people at it. They don’t represent most leavers, do they?



Shitty end of the lolly stick reflection again...not all leaver voters are racist, obviously. Lots of racists voted leave though. I've no idea what the percentages are.


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh but in a city with a decent proportion of people of different hues it's unusual to see so much gammon[/QU
> Hesitate to suggest that he ought to get out more but..


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Shitty end of the lolly stick reflection again...not all leavers are racists, obviously. Lots of racists voted leave though. I've no idea what the percentages are.


Aye I ken. We’ll never know what the percentages are, and I don’t see what value there is in finding out. We have to be able to reject racist, capitalist institutions like the EU and liberal parties at home without being accused of capitulating to racism right off the bat. How do I oppose concentration camps in Greece and Turkey without offending those waving the EU flag and being accused of being more right than left?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 29, 2019)

We also have to reject racist capitalist tories who are about to kick out several hundred thousands people living legally in the UK.


----------



## Cid (Mar 29, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> They could have voted either to revoke article 50 or accept the deal on offer- the deal itself being something she also had little control over. As much of a cunt as May is, I’m not sure what it is people are expecting from another PM. Assuming you are into that sort of thing(Westminster handbags) it’s basically Eastenders from where I’m sat....



I think there's a... risk... here of our views of Parliamentary politics tainting what has actually happened over the last couple of years. I'm not sure any PM could have made this work. And I mean genuinely not sure. But May, from first principles, has worked against the only possible solutions within that political framework... She is a details technocrat, that's why she wants to outlast Brown, from fairly on her detractors compared her to him. And on that she has tried to establish her own deal, working out the details using methods she thinks can be extrapolated from her time in the Home Office. She hasn't worked by analogy, as law often does (negotiating on the basis of Norway, Canada, Switzerland etc), but on what she thinks will deliver the message she has based her premiership on (brexit means brexit). She has repeatedly failed to look beyond that, as witnessed by the rate she chewed through brexit ministers, and her failure to engage remotely with opposition.

I'm not sure another prime minister could have succeeded. But May was never going to.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Or should I let the refugees in Greece rot until the political climate in the UK is perfect! I’m not sure they have that much time.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

ska invita said:


> We also have to reject racist capitalist tories who are about to kick out several hundred thousands people living legally in the UK.


I do that every fucking election!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)

ska invita said:


> We also have to reject racist capitalist tories who are about to kick out several hundred thousands people living legally in the UK.



Yeah..we know...that's what we were all trying to do and then...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)




----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Yeah..we know...that's what we were all trying to do and then...


What’s your point? Was the remain vote going to set all the refugees holed up in camps free? We all know we can’t do fuck all with our shitey vote. And we clearly all have the same principles so we should probably try and stick together, same principles just different angles, different red lines.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> What’s your point?


 My point was a response to ska invita I'm not interested in any extra projections you wish to add to it.

I spoiled my vote FYI...have a guess why.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> My point was a response to ska invita I'm not interested in any extra projections you wish to add to it.
> 
> I spoiled my vote FYI...have a guess why.


I’ve no wish to add projections at all, I have a lot of time for you (based on your posts here) 

I must have read you wrong. Sorry x


----------



## A380 (Mar 29, 2019)

Is it kicking off yet?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I’ve no wish to add projections at all, I have a lot of time for you (based on your posts here)
> 
> I must have read you wrong. Sorry x




Fair enough. Not being an arse just tired and being a bit curt. I think we certainly agree on the absolute 'fuck knows' of this situation...I'm bored shitless of it tbh.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Fair enough. Not being an arse just tired and being a bit curt. I think we certainly agree on the absolute 'fuck knows' of this situation...I bored shitless of it tbh.


Yeah I’m the same, overworked and curt always. Me too, it’s shit!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

A380 said:


> Is it kicking off yet?


Wot? Brexit? I don’t think those cunts work past 5


----------



## Cid (Mar 29, 2019)

Why does parliament still sit so late? I suppose other business...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)

Cid said:


> Why does parliament still sit so late?



Rehearsals?


----------



## chilango (Mar 29, 2019)

To be fair to "this place" (yeah, I see you Kuenssberg) they're right, every option presented to them is a pile of shit.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 29, 2019)

chilango said:


> To be fair to "this place" (yeah, I see you Kuenssberg) they're right, every option presented to them is a pile of shit.


Every conceivable option was presented, maybe there should have been cash prizes.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 29, 2019)

We live in very strange fucked-up times.


----------



## Favelado (Mar 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Rehearsals?
> 
> View attachment 166025



Definitely not Making Their Mind Up though.


----------



## hipipol (Mar 29, 2019)

Lets hope the chaos sets all free - the Union is dissolved. A Nation Once Again? Both sides of the North Channel? Brilliant


----------



## hipipol (Mar 29, 2019)

Favelado said:


> Definitely not Making Their Mind Up though.


Ace!!!! Good laff........


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 29, 2019)

teqniq said:


> We live in very strange fucked-up times.
> 
> View attachment 166029



Jeez.


----------



## Wookey (Mar 29, 2019)

It's 11 o clock.


----------



## KeeperofDragons (Mar 29, 2019)

May's up shit creek & they're running around looking for a paddle


----------



## toblerone3 (Mar 29, 2019)

Wookey said:


> It's 11 o clock.



I'm raising a glass. Still in the EU.


----------



## Supine (Mar 29, 2019)

New idea for 'what the fuck is going to happen next'


----------



## Wookey (Mar 29, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> I'm raising a glass. Still in the EU.



I think lots of people will be doing that this evening! 

Let's also spare a thought for the rabid Brexiteers who scoffed at the idea that Brexit could be stopped or delayed, who acted like it was written by God in the very cliffs of Dover...I suspect they might be feeling a tad jaded tonight, with their deflating balloons and boxes of erroneously dated souvenir Brexit cups and saucers...

HA!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 30, 2019)

Wookey said:


> I think lots of people will be doing that this evening!
> 
> Let's also spare a thought for the rabid Brexiteers who scoffed at the idea that Brexit could be stopped or delayed, who acted like it was written by God in the very cliffs of Dover...I suspect they might be feeling a tad jaded tonight, with their deflating balloons and boxes of erroneously dated souvenir Brexit cups and saucers...
> 
> HA!


Come forward everyone here that applies to.... 

Come on don’t be shy!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 30, 2019)




----------



## Humberto (Mar 30, 2019)

This is how states fall apart isn't it? I'm not doom-mongering or saying it is imminent, but when they cannot command a hierarchy, establish the needs of that hierarchy going forward, people like the military can and will. Less democracy because they can't handle the schism of interests.

Time to get a grip on things. Though they may have left it too late. Pandering to dickheads does have real consequences. By which I mean Tories and their fucking shit media apparatus. Parliament must agree to one course or another. Logic dictates that if you don't want several things, you must want something else instead. Therefore; someone is throwing a spanner in the works at every opportunity. May needs to fuck off now. Its not about her.


----------



## Ming (Mar 30, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Ming have you paid your tenner to the server fund by the way?


30USD of your blood money to the server fund (i still think it’ll be no deal in April....and no i’m not having another bet . This debacle’s going to cost me a shit load more than that when the fucking pound tanks).


----------



## SpackleFrog (Mar 30, 2019)

Ming said:


> 30USD of your blood money to the server fund (i still think it’ll be no deal in April....and no i’m not having another bet . This debacle’s going to cost me a shit load more than that when the fucking pound tanks).



Thanks Ming yer a good lad


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 30, 2019)

THE DUP have had a turnaround in their stance on Brexit and would like Britain to stay in the EU in order to preserve Northern Ireland’s place in the UK...rather than back May's deal.


Interesting
Dodds 'would remain over risking union'


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 30, 2019)

Supine said:


> View attachment 166039
> 
> New idea for 'what the fuck is going to happen next'


Not sure that 2) is correct. The prospect of a referendum would then likely see EU facilitate extention, non?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 30, 2019)

Lupa said:


> THE DUP have had a turnaround in their stance on Brexit and would like Britain to stay in the EU in order to preserve Northern Ireland’s place in the UK...rather than back May's deal.
> 
> 
> Interesting
> Dodds 'would remain over risking union'



So, May is going to have to find something she can bring Labour on board with.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 30, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> So, May is going to have to find something she can bring Labour on board with.



If I were Corbyn I’d demand full communism and hope Grayling was negotiating the deal.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 30, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> So, May is going to have to find something she can bring Labour on board with.


Or hold a second referendum.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Or hold a second referendum.



Or hold a general election.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 30, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Or hold a general election.


I still don't see why they would do that.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I still don't see why they would do that.



To avoid a second referendum.

But, at the end of the day, I would refer you to the first reply on this thread


cupid_stunt said:


> View attachment 164097


We are in the realms of madness.


----------



## Winot (Mar 30, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> Not sure that 2) is correct. The prospect of a referendum would then likely see EU facilitate extention, non?



Oui


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 30, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> To avoid a second referendum.
> 
> But, at the end of the day, I would refer you to the first reply on this thread
> 
> We are in the realms of madness.


But why would they call a GE, which they might lose, instead of a referendum? 

This shit's doing my head in.


----------



## LDC (Mar 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I still don't see why they would do that.



IMO the suggestion of a GE is a threat to try get the deal voted through next time. I think the worry of a Labour win with beat a few more MPs into line voting for her deal.


----------



## xenon (Mar 30, 2019)

GE solves nothing anyway.  If Labour commit to customs union, softer Brexit, they are going to piss off a significant part of their electorate.  Apparently. Though I have my doubts.   They won’t win an overall majority in any case. Neither will the Tories.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 30, 2019)

I started reading the first page of this thread by accident and could tell no difference between it and the last page.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 30, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> IMO the suggestion of a GE is a threat to try get the deal voted through next time. I think the worry of a Labour win with beat a few more MPs into line voting for her deal.


Well the only reason that she'd call a GE is that she'd hope to get an overall majority and fuck the DUP off. That's highly unlikely so it's just an empty threat. Would she be the only PM in history to have called 2 catastrophic GEs?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> But why would they call a GE, which they might lose, instead of a referendum?
> 
> This shit's doing my head in.



Because, when push comes to shove, it would be better option for her than going for a second referendum, which would tear the Tory party apart.


----------



## A380 (Mar 30, 2019)




----------



## andysays (Mar 30, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Because, when push comes to shove, it would be better option for her than going for a second referendum, which would tear the Tory party apart.


Neither of the GE or the Ref2 options are great for May and both risk significant damage to the Tories. Difficult to see which is worse for them, TBH.

And I agree that the prospect of one or other of them has been used to bring Tory doubters back into line, with some success, but if the DUP aren't going to play ball, then there aren't enough votes even if every single Tory votes with the government. 

Hard to see what other solution can be found in the 13 days left...


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 30, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Because, when push comes to shove, it would be better option for her than going for a second referendum, which would tear the Tory party apart.


Losing the government to Labour would cause far more long term damage than calling a referendum where they'd have at least 2 more years in power to try to fix the fallout. They'd be nuts to call a GE.


----------



## Winot (Mar 30, 2019)

Theresa May hasn’t managed any strategic thinking at any point in this process so not sure she’s going to start now. Instead she has delayed the difficult decisions and when pushed to make them has backed down. If that pattern continues then she’ll end up asking the EU for another extension and we will have European elections. 

The interesting bit will be what happens next i.e. will she stand down or cling on. She has no shame so my guess is she stays until forced out (which can’t happen till December). 

My fear is that (a) the EU won’t grant an extension (unlikely but possible) or (b) she decides the Tory Party would be harmed less by no deal than by EU elections.


----------



## killer b (Mar 30, 2019)

I think May has a strategy: it's to use the threat of no deal on one side, and extension/revoke/etc on the other to force through her deal as the only thing that avoids one or the other. It may even work eventually, although it's not looking likely right now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Losing the government to Labour would cause far more long term damage than calling a referendum where they'd have at least 2 more years in power to try to fix the fallout. They'd be nuts to call a GE.


They're in office but not in power


----------



## andysays (Mar 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think May has a strategy: it's to use the threat of no deal on one side, and extension/revoke/etc on the other to force through her deal as the only thing that avoids one or the other. It may even work eventually, although it's not looking likely right now.


That's what she's doing, but it's a remarkably dangerous strategy, as she's rapidly running out of time (April 13 looms) and she clearly has no idea beyond that of how to gain the necessary votes for her deal, or how to find anything approaching an alternative.


----------



## Winot (Mar 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think May has a strategy: it's to use the threat of no deal on one side, and extension/revoke/etc on the other to force through her deal as the only thing that avoids one or the other. It may even work eventually, although it's not looking likely right now.



Yes that’s true. Perhaps it’s more accurate to say that she has no Plan B.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 30, 2019)

andysays said:


> and she clearly has no idea



is sufficient...


----------



## killer b (Mar 30, 2019)

andysays said:


> That's what she's doing, but it's a remarkably dangerous strategy, as she's rapidly running out of time (April 13 looms) and she clearly has no idea beyond that of how to gain the necessary votes for her deal, or how to find anything approaching an alternative.


Well, if she had an obvious alternative in mind the threat of no deal/no brexit wouldn't really be a threat would it?


----------



## killer b (Mar 30, 2019)

How can brinkmanship ever work as a strategy if there's no brink?


----------



## maomao (Mar 30, 2019)

All the evidence suggests that she's just shit. There's no strategy except bullying and threats.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 30, 2019)

Lupa said:


> THE DUP have had a turnaround in their stance on Brexit and would like Britain to stay in the EU in order to preserve Northern Ireland’s place in the UK...rather than back May's deal.
> 
> 
> Interesting
> Dodds 'would remain over risking union'


I don’t think that’s a turnaround in their stance at all; it’s simply an explanation of their priorities. 

Priorities which have already been remarked upon on these boards (by myself and others).


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 30, 2019)

Winot said:


> Yes that’s true. Perhaps it’s more accurate to say that she has no Plan B.



With plan A going so well, why bother?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 30, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I don’t think that’s a turnaround in their stance at all; it’s simply an explanation of their priorities.
> 
> Priorities which have already been remarked upon on these boards (by myself and others).


There is a certain fitting irony to it though. The DUP were the only party in parliament to campaign for leave. 

It also pleases me to see consequences for May for entering into an agreement with them.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 30, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There is a certain fitting irony to it though. The DUP were the only party in parliament to campaign for leave.
> 
> It also pleases me to see consequences for May for entering into an agreement with them.


Oh, it’s hilarious. No doubt about it.


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 30, 2019)

And the brinkmanship only works with her own MPs of whom there are not enough as we have seen.Labour MPs would love to see her asking for a long extension because that will be the end of the Tories for the forseeable.


----------



## happie chappie (Mar 30, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Given there are far fewer Black people in the country, he is probably right, obviously! Proportionately, he is probably right too IMO. I don't think anyone should under estimate what damage Farage and the frothing edl types did in terms of marginalising Black people and undermining the legitimacy of the left wing leave arguments.



Well if you didn't vote you can't complain about the outcome.


----------



## Poot (Mar 30, 2019)

happie chappie said:


> Well if you didn't vote you can't complain about the outcome.


I don't think that's true at all.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 30, 2019)

Winot said:


> The interesting bit will be what happens next i.e. will she stand down or cling on. She has no shame so my guess is she stays until forced out (which can’t happen till December).
> 
> .



MPs cant force out through the official process till december - but if the cabinet and the majority of mps tell her to fuck off and they wont serve under her she doesn't really have a choice. She will try to cling on for a bit yet - but i would be amazed if shes still there in two weeks time (unless she somehow gets her deal through). 
Not sure what happens if she trys to trigger and election -  i cant see the tories wanting her leading the campaign - but if they turf her out its civil war.


----------



## Poot (Mar 30, 2019)

happie chappie said:


> Well if you didn't vote you can't complain about the outcome.


Or were you being ironic? I lose track on this thread


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2019)

happie chappie said:


> Well if you didn't vote you can't complain about the outcome.


Utter tosh


----------



## andysays (Mar 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> Well, if she had an obvious alternative in mind the threat of no deal/no brexit wouldn't really be a threat would it?


It's not just that she has no alternative policy in mind, it's that she clearly has no alternative plan in mind for actually delivering Brexit ie getting some sort of deal through parliament. 

Going to the brink and dragging everyone - party, country, etc - over the edge with you doesn't count as a meaningful strategy in my book.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Utter tosh


Pretty sure that was irony.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2019)

happie chappie said:


> Well if you didn't vote you can't complain about the outcome.


There's more of an argument that if you did take part you agreed to the process and result than that your claim people who for whatever reason didn't want to take part can have no issue with the result


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Pretty sure that was irony.


I hope you're right but am not persuaded you are


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I hope you're right but am not persuaded you are


From now on I’m going to be a glass half full kind of a guy.


----------



## gosub (Mar 30, 2019)

Winot said:


> Yes that’s true. Perhaps it’s more accurate to say that she has no Plan B.



Plan B is laid out in Art 50   - in the event of not being able to reach a deal, we leave without one.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 30, 2019)

gosub said:


> Plan B is laid out in Art 50   - in the event of not being able to reach a deal, we leave without one.


Which MPs failed to prevent when they didn’t back the repeal of Art 50 if a no deal scenario looms. Although they could still do that at the time. Not that there’s the numbers for anything. No plan has enough support.


----------



## Winot (Mar 30, 2019)

gosub said:


> Plan B is laid out in Art 50   - in the event of not being able to reach a deal, we leave without one.



That is legally accurate but May has clearly rowed back from that in recent weeks.


----------



## killer b (Mar 30, 2019)

andysays said:


> It's not just that she has no alternative policy in mind, it's that she clearly has no alternative plan in mind for actually delivering Brexit ie getting some sort of deal through parliament.
> 
> Going to the brink and dragging everyone - party, country, etc - over the edge with you doesn't count as a meaningful strategy in my book.


But it cant work unless she looks serious? That doesn't mean theres no plan b. It just means she hasn't told you what it is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Which MPs failed to prevent when they didn’t back the repeal of Art 50 if a no deal scenario looms. Although they could still do that at the time. Not that there’s the numbers for anything. No plan has enough support.


Their minds may be concentrated in the next few days


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 30, 2019)

Winot said:


> That is legally accurate but May has clearly rowed back from that in recent weeks.


Well, to the extent that it was one of the threats she was making yesterday, I don’t think she has. It’s her bargaining stance with parliament (not the EU as first supposed).


----------



## Sue (Mar 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> But it cant work unless she looks serious? That doesn't mean theres no plan b. It just means she hasn't told you what it is.


True but I'd be very, very surprised if she had one. Or one that was vaguely plausible.


----------



## andysays (Mar 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> But it cant work unless she looks serious? That doesn't mean theres no plan b. It just means she hasn't told you what it is.


I get what you're saying, but I really don't think she has any idea beyond yet another vote on her deal. She's like a WW1 general sending yet another division of infantry over the top to charge against the machine guns.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 30, 2019)

happie chappie said:


> Well if you didn't vote you can't complain about the outcome.


Everyone & anyone can complain all they like and who the fuck are you to say otherwise?


----------



## Winot (Mar 30, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, to the extent that it was one of the threats she was making yesterday, I don’t think she has. It’s her bargaining stance with parliament (not the EU as first supposed).



I don’t think her heart’s in the bluff. She’s not a Mad Max libertarian like Patterson or Redwood. She’ll have been briefed about the chaos of no deal and will know that it’ll be on her if it happens. 

It still *could* happen though. It’s just I think she’s more likely to go for another extension first.


----------



## killer b (Mar 30, 2019)

andysays said:


> I get what you're saying, but I really don't think she has any idea beyond yet another vote on her deal. She's like a WW1 general sending yet another division of infantry over the top to charge against the machine guns.


The narrative of truculant incompetence is a very attractive one, but I dont believe it. Which isn't to say that May's strategy will work, or that she hasn't possibly got lots of things wrong.

I think the nature of the political moment is that there isn't necessarily any strategy that _will_ work though. So whatever May or any other replacement leader does, they'll be viewed by history to have fucked right up.


----------



## maomao (Mar 30, 2019)

Winot said:


> I don’t think her heart’s in the bluff. She’s not a Mad Max libertarian like Patterson or Redwood. She’ll have been briefed about the chaos of no deal and will know that it’ll be on her if it happens.
> 
> It still *could* happen though. It’s just I think she’s more likely to go for another extension first.


She's clearly more interested in her party and her "legacy" than she is in a stable economy. If she drags us to no deal then for a certain group of people she'll forever be the PM that defeated the traitors and gave us Brexit rather than the abject failure she'll be remembered as otherwise.


----------



## Winot (Mar 30, 2019)

maomao said:


> She's clearly more interested in her party and her "legacy" than she is in a stable economy. If she drags us to no deal the for a certain group of people she'll forever be the PM that defeated the traitors and gave us Brexit rather than the abject failure she'll be remembered as otherwise.



This is also true.


----------



## killer b (Mar 30, 2019)

From a Tory perspective, holding the party together is probably the most important thing for a long term stable economy, as if they dont the result will be a majority Labour government under Jeremy Corbyn. Everything the leadership is doing needs to be viewed through this prism (theres a similar but opposite prism on the Labour side)


----------



## rubbershoes (Mar 30, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> From now on I’m going to be a glass half full kind of a guy.



Can I offer you a top up, Danny


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> The narrative of truculant incompetence is a very attractive one, but I dont believe it. Which isn't to say that May's strategy will work, or that she hasn't possibly got lots of things wrong.
> 
> I think the nature of the political moment is that there isn't necessarily any strategy that _will_ work though. So whatever May or any other replacement leader does, they'll be viewed by history to have fucked right up.


I don’t think she’s uniquely inept or anything, but I am reminded of a story a mate often tells. He refers to an old documentary he once saw in which old IRA guys talked about negotiating with the British government in the very early 70s. (Probably in Belfast, though I didn’t see the docu myself).

He says the way the IRA guys told it, the government officials would make a position, then leave the room to discuss the IRA’s counter position, only to return putting a completely contradictory position. The IRA couldn’t work out what this strategy was. They thought they were being blindsided by something they couldn’t figure out. Then after a few more goes, realised the government team didn’t know what it was doing. They just had a public school, Oxbridge  unshakable confidence in their own competence. And an unquestioning belief that they had to be smarter than the IRA representatives.

This is a story my mate often uses to illustrate upper middle class self belief. I can’t verify the accuracy of the telling of the docu, but it rings true. I can quite believe it.


----------



## Cid (Mar 30, 2019)

I’ll mention Tim Shipman’s books on the referendum and election again... although he clearly respects those in the Westminster bubble and is obviously heavily invested in that world, nothing he says leads me to believe that truculent incompetence isn’t the most likely option. Combined with that unshakable self belief Danny mentions above.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 30, 2019)

Theresa May is still struggling to come to terms with the fact that people just won't do what she jolly well tells them to do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2019)

Cid said:


> I’ll mention Tim Shipman’s books on the referendum and election again... although he clearly respects those in the Westminster bubble and is obviously heavily invested in that world, nothing he says leads me to believe that truculent incompetence isn’t the most likely option. Combined with that unshakable self belief Danny mentions above.


Stupidity incompetence and entitlement, a toxic trinity


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Stupidity incompetence and entitlement, a toxic trinity



its their fucking motto - we need that it in latin with some heraldic beast tripping over with its trousers round its ankles.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> its their fucking motto - we need that it in latin with some heraldic beast tripping over with its trousers round its ankles.


At last a task for teuchter


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 30, 2019)

rubbershoes said:


> Can I offer you a top up, Danny


You do realise your glass will then be less than half full?


----------



## LDC (Mar 30, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I don’t think she’s uniquely inept or anything, but I am reminded of a story a mate often tells. He refers to an old documentary he once saw in which old IRA guys talked about negotiating with the British government in the very early 70s. (Probably in Belfast, though I didn’t see the docu myself).
> 
> He says the way the IRA guys told it, the government officials would make a position, then leave the room to discuss the IRA’s counter position, only to return putting a completely contradictory position. The IRA couldn’t work out what this strategy was. They thought they were being blindsided by something they couldn’t figure out. Then after a few more goes, realised the government team didn’t know what it was doing. They just had a public school, Oxbridge  unshakable confidence in their own competence. And an unquestioning belief that they had to be smarter than the IRA representatives.
> 
> This is a story my mate often uses to illustrate upper middle class self belief. I can’t verify the accuracy of the telling of the docu, but it rings true. I can quite believe it.



I've met a few MPs (don't even get me started on the minor political functionaries like councillors) over the years and I have always been shocked at how completely and utterly fucking useless they were. And when I say useless I don't mean they don't have the latest facts and figures or an incisive insight or witty story to reel off, I mean useless like barely able to function as a normal human, but as has been said, at the same time totally oblivious to their own incompetence.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 30, 2019)

happie chappie said:


> Well if you didn't vote you can't complain about the outcome.



Just in case you are being serious...

I think that spoiling my ballot was a legitimate response to what was obviously a flawed and wholly insulting choice of which flavour political shit sandwich I'd prefer. I decided to do so not just because I very much cared about the outcome of the referendum, but also in protest to how it came about and how it was campaigned by both sides. Whilst it successfully illuminated the unpalatable underbelly of our political class and continues to do so the feeling of being a turkey voting for xmas and seeing just how deeply others were swallowing and propagating the rhetoric left me disgusted.

So yeah, Disgusted of London. That's me.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 30, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> its their fucking motto - we need that it in latin with some heraldic beast tripping over with its trousers round its ankles.



"Entitlemento, stupore et incompetentia"


----------



## Ted Striker (Mar 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think May has a strategy: it's to use the threat of no deal on one side, and extension/revoke/etc on the other to force through her deal as the only thing that avoids one or the other. It may even work eventually, although it's not looking likely right now.



I think the outcome of the vote between Her deal vs Letwin options output (Likely soft Brexit/Common Markets) will see Her deal through - The rest of the ERG will fall in line once the Common Market Brexit gets closer to the finish line and is legitimately presented as the only/most likely possible path (unless you vote for her deal).


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> I think the outcome of the vote between Her deal vs Letwin options output (Likely soft Brexit/Common Markets) will see Her deal through - The rest of the ERG will fall in line once the Common Market Brexit gets closer to the finish line and is legitimately presented as the only/most likely possible path (unless you vote for her deal).


It doesn't matter how all the tories vote, it's how everyone else does. If the dup continue saying no then as long as all the other parties say no too then the deal falls


----------



## xenon (Mar 30, 2019)

nm


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 30, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> View attachment 166122


That's your best post since 5/12/2001


----------



## killer b (Mar 30, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> I think the outcome of the vote between Her deal vs Letwin options output (Likely soft Brexit/Common Markets) will see Her deal through - The rest of the ERG will fall in line once the Common Market Brexit gets closer to the finish line and is legitimately presented as the only/most likely possible path (unless you vote for her deal).


Sure, that's still a very real possibility - and if it does happen her approach will frankly be vindicated. Thinking about it, I'm really not sure she could have done much different - post election 2017 - that wouldn't crash her government.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 30, 2019)

Don't worry, a new royal yacht will make everything right again...

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/102858/excl-new-royal-yacht-britannia-would-‘unite’-country


> Jake Berry said: “The rebuilding of the Royal Yacht Britannia is not government policy. However, my personal view about it is in a post-Brexit environment it could play a real role in driving international trade.
> 
> “Things like that can provide new symbols of unity that we could potentially use to bring our country back together, something we could be proud of, something we could unite behind.



To quote my mate who shared this on Facebook, "For fuck's sake WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE"


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Don't worry, a new royal yacht will make everything right again...
> 
> https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/102858/excl-new-royal-yacht-britannia-would-‘unite’-country
> 
> ...


i think they're on to something

just need a bit of finessing


----------



## Lord Camomile (Mar 30, 2019)

I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere that Titanic II is actually planned  And I'm talking about the vessel, not the film.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere that Titanic II is actually planned  And I'm talking about the vessel, not the film.


doesn't have to be titanic ii, could be mary rose ii


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i think they're on to something
> 
> just need a bit of finessing
> 
> View attachment 166135



The Titanic anniversary on the 15th April!


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 30, 2019)

Captained by Theresa May.
Full speed ahead and fuck the icebergs.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 30, 2019)

Didn't that Grayling try and bung White Star for a Titanic ferry service?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 30, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Captained by Theresa May.
> Full speed ahead and fuck the icebergs.



this disaster in entirely due to the stubbornness and intransigence  of the iceberg. The british people will not forget that it  refused to move out of the way when  the county was crying out	for  inanimate objects to embrace the spirit of  compromise and to do as they are told .... glug .... glug ... glug ...........


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> this disaster in entirely due to the stubbornness and intransigence  of the iceberg. The british people will not forget that it  refused to move out of the way when  the county was crying out	for  inanimate objects to embrace the spirit of  compromise and to do as they are told .... glug .... glug ... glug ...........


To be fair recent analysis suggests the disaster caused by the captain of the titanic obeying the law of the sea and turning go starboard. The iceberg for reasons best known to it didn't follow a similar course of action


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 30, 2019)

There’s the rub, with Theresa May at the helm a continual veer to the right would be a constant.

ETA: This would obviously lead to her going around in a never ending circle.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 30, 2019)

channel 4 news this evening accosting members of the public, and asked one or two people "what should theresa may do next?"

don't know how many people they had to ask before they got an answer other than "fuck off"


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 30, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I started reading the first page of this thread by accident and could tell no difference between it and the last page.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> channel 4 news this evening accosting members of the public, and asked one or two people "what should theresa may do next?"
> 
> don't know how many people they had to ask before they got an answer other than "fuck off"


C4 news killing it on just 'reporting the news' guv this week.


----------



## newbie (Mar 30, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Don't worry, a new royal yacht will make everything right again...
> 
> https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/102858/excl-new-royal-yacht-britannia-would-‘unite’-country
> 
> ...


did you think they'd stopped while all this is going on?

27/03/2019


Talking of which, the resignation honours list is going to be very interesting indeed.


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 30, 2019)

The next person to say "it's like getting the egg back out of a baked cake" is literally worse than Hitler and Chris Grayling


----------



## Wilf (Mar 31, 2019)

twentythreedom said:


> worse than Hitler and Chris Grayling


 Henceforth Hitlering.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 31, 2019)

twentythreedom said:


> The next person to say "it's like getting the egg back out of a baked cake" is literally worse than Hitler and Chris Grayling


I think stopping that saying would be like...would...would be...


----------



## gosub (Mar 31, 2019)

twentythreedom said:


> The next person to say "it's like getting the egg back out of a baked cake" is literally worse than Hitler and Chris Grayling



tbf It would a very different world if Chris Grayling had "organised" the Holocaust


----------



## Argonia (Mar 31, 2019)

gosub said:


> tbf It would a very different world if Chris Grayling had "organised" the Holocaust


He would have given the Zyklon B contract to a company that had never made poisons


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 31, 2019)

gosub said:


> tbf It would a very different world if Chris Grayling had "organised" the Holocaust



After being moved on from his previous role where he outsourced the job of invading france and the low countries to Italy.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 31, 2019)

It's a sign of how high the Fucked Up bar is at the moment that Chris Grayling remains anywhere near having any kind of 'job', or even existence. Last Friday, I think it was channel 4 were reporting on the spot from the house of commons as may's latest 'deal' was voted down. As their reporter waited to speak to someone 'in the know', who should lurch into view (well, he is quite tall and gormless) but Grayling. It's like getting asking some genetic stitch up of Gerald Ratner, David Moyes and the captain of the Titanic about the way forward.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 31, 2019)

So am I right in thinking that May's final toss of the dice has been to use the possibility of a general election as _a threat against her own party_, in order to get them to vote for the deal?  She's basically saying 'Vote for my deal or your seat gets it.'  Can she actually carry through on the threat? And has she gone actually insane?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 31, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> So am I right in thinking that May's final toss of the dice has been to use the possibility of a general election as _a threat against her own party_, in order to get them to vote for the deal?  She's basically saying 'Vote for my deal or your seat gets it.'  Can she actually carry through on the threat? And has she gone actually insane?


I'm quite, quite lost, so not a good one to ask, but it seems to be something like this:

CALL - 'Look, it's my deal vs no deal'.  RESPONSE - 'NO!'

CALL - 'Okay, it's my deal vs staying in at least a year'. RESPONSE - 'NO!'

CALL - 'Okay, it's my deal vs a general election - and look, ha ha, Labour are 5% ahead!  Ha, ha, ha... you are toast'.  RESPONSE - 'What, this might affect _ME_!  Fuck that, where do I sign up?'


----------



## maomao (Mar 31, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> So am I right in thinking that May's final toss of the dice has been to use the possibility of a general election as _a threat against her own party_, in order to get them to vote for the deal?  She's basically saying 'Vote for my deal or your seat gets it.'  Can she actually carry through on the threat? And has she gone actually insane?


A lot of the erg lot are in safe seats anyway aren't they? I don't think my swivel eyed loon of an MP (Rosindell, Romford) gives a fuck about a GE with his 14,000 majority.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 31, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> So am I right in thinking that May's final toss of the dice has been to use the possibility of a general election as _a threat against her own party_, in order to get them to vote for the deal?



It does look that way



Brainaddict said:


> She's basically saying 'Vote for my deal or your seat gets it.



or at least 'Vote for my deal or you might get Jeremy Corbyn as PM'



Brainaddict said:


> Can she actually carry through on the threat?



hard to tell.  she would either need to lose a (parliamentary not conservative party) vote of no confidence (which is a simple majority), or get 2/3 of MPs to vote to dissolve parliament (under the so-called fixed term parliaments act.)   This suggests that a a fair number of tory MPs are not impressed with the idea.   

The limp dems and tinge have said they will vote with theresa may on a vote of no confidence (although that was at least a week ago so they may have changed position since) and it's hard to imagine the tingers being keen on an early general election.

but anything is possible...



Brainaddict said:


> And has she gone actually insane?



i couldn't possibly comment.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 31, 2019)

Why would the fucking Lib Dems and Tiggers vote against a vonc?


----------



## maomao (Mar 31, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Why would the fucking Lib Dems and Tiggers vote against a vonc?


Because the Tiggers especially will be out of a job the day after the next GE.


----------



## stdP (Mar 31, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> So am I right in thinking that May's final toss of the dice has been to use the possibility of a general election as _a threat against her own party_, in order to get them to vote for the deal?  She's basically saying 'Vote for my deal or your seat gets it.'  Can she actually carry through on the threat? And has she gone actually insane?



"Gone" as in "only _just_ gone insane"? IMNSHO ever since DCs abject failure in the referendum she's become an increasingly unhinged grasping little despot, a Mussolini without the charisma. A hapless wannabe dictator that just can't understand why everyone won't just do what she tells them to (and yes that includes threatening members of her own party by any means necessary, up to and including the sheer unbridled horror of the possibility of a labour government) and yet the only person capable of saving the beloved Party (and thus the country). She's gone full on Hitler-Rant-scorched-earth "all of you people have failed me, if only you'd have appreciated the genius of my plans we'd be running through fields of wheat by now" delusional, trying to drag as many people down with her as possible and putting bricks in the lifejackets and holes in the lifeboats of everyone she can't literally sink her talons into.

I'd say "False Dichtomy" was her middle name if it wasn't already "Xenophobic Authoritarian Tyrant".

I don't think history will be much kinder to her than this post is (if you've not guessed I don't like her very much) but I don't think it's going to be much kinder to the UK as a whole either, as the general impression that your average-guy-on-the-non-UK-street is getting is that this is what the most of the UK wants.


----------



## agricola (Mar 31, 2019)

stdP said:


> "Gone" as in "only _just_ gone insane"? IMNSHO ever since DCs abject failure in the referendum she's become an increasingly unhinged grasping little despot, a Mussolini without the charisma. A hapless wannabe dictator that just can't understand why everyone won't just do what she tells them to (and yes that includes threatening members of her own party by any means necessary, up to and including the sheer unbridled horror of the possibility of a labour government) and yet the only person capable of saving the beloved Party (and thus the country). She's gone full on Hitler-Rant-scorched-earth "all of you people have failed me, if only you'd have appreciated the genius of my plans we'd be running through fields of wheat by now" delusional, trying to drag as many people down with her as possible and putting bricks in the lifejackets and holes in the lifeboats of everyone she can't literally sink her talons into.
> 
> I'd say "False Dichtomy" was her middle name if it wasn't already "Xenophobic Authoritarian Tyrant".
> 
> I don't think history will be much kinder to her than this post is (if you've not guessed I don't like her very much) but I don't think it's going to be much kinder to the UK as a whole either, as the general impression that your average-guy-on-the-non-UK-street is getting is that this is what the most of the UK wants.



She was always like this though, at least from the point at which she became Home Secretary and almost certainly before that (given that she is a lifelong Tory).  

One also has to acknowledge that by the perverse standards of the Coalition and Tory Governments, she was the senior minister who actually did things - the go home vans, Windrush, (apprently) accepting and imposing the severe cuts on her department. messing about with drug policy for entirely political ends, inventing cats and the rest - always in the teeth of political hostility, (almost certainly) with official advice that disagreed with her and most importantly with people who actually would be affected telling her to her face of what the effects would be.  She pushed the policies through regardless, which of course is something that the party has always rated more important than what the policies actually do.

This stubbornness is not the cause of her problems, and its been of considerable help to her politically up to this point.  Her problem is that a party which allows itself to get into the position where a bad Home Secretary that ignores advice and reality in order to push through poorly-thought out nonsense is the outstanding candidate for leader, is a party which is in rather serious trouble.  Everything we have seen since mid 2016 - the messing up of negotiations, the policy disasters, the 2017 election, the massive defeats in the Commons - stem from the fact that they are basically rubbish.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 31, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Why would the fucking Lib Dems and Tiggers vote against a vonc?



because they would rather have a tory government than the possibility of a corbyn led labour government?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 31, 2019)

I don't really get the fuss over the cheating thing. The Electoral commission is soft as shite. You cheat, you pay a fine. Everyone knows it, it's like the Catholic indulgences of yore.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 31, 2019)

maomao said:


> A lot of the erg lot are in safe seats anyway aren't they? I don't think my swivel eyed loon of an MP (Rosindell, Romford) gives a fuck about a GE with his 14,000 majority.


But they're quite likely to lose the election as a party and be out of power. Those fashy ERG edgelords think one of their number should be the next PM. A general election right now is not likely to return that result - or at least, it's not a very safe bet. Much much safer to just try to edge TM out and get one of their number in. Then there's time to re-write the narratives - explain that the EU fucked up Brexit, not them, and normalise their medium-to-far right language - before the next election.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 31, 2019)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> The Electoral commission is soft as shite. You cheat, you pay a fine



and if the rule you have broken is breaking the spending limits then the billionaires who have bankrolled the whole damn thing won't really care that much.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 1, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> So am I right in thinking that May's final toss of the dice has been to use the possibility of a general election as _a threat against her own party_, in order to get them to vote for the deal?  She's basically saying 'Vote for my deal or your seat gets it.'  Can she actually carry through on the threat? And has she gone actually insane?



To be fair, that's how Major got Maastricht through. To be honest I think if she'd done that in the first place she might have pulled this off - a straightforward "vote for me or its GE time" vote would have made a lot of sense. Think she's left it too late. Small number of Tories and DUP are just too entrenched against it now to shift position.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

EU seems to be 'embracing' the idea of a customs union:
Britain 'could leave EU by 22 May if MPs vote for customs union'
If the customs union indicative vote does get through, I presume that it then only needs May to convince herself that she would still be 'delivering brexit'. However her bigger concern would be the immediate splits that would generate in the tory party. Her predominant concern throughout the whole process.

EDit: actually, that was a statement of the obvious.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> To be fair, that's how Major got Maastricht through. To be honest I think if she'd done that in the first place she might have pulled this off - a straightforward "vote for me or its GE time" vote would have made a lot of sense. Think she's left it too late. Small number of Tories and DUP are just too entrenched against it now to shift position.


I keep thinking about the whole thing in terms of the psychology of the key players rather than some kind of political economy. In those terms I think you are right. There are certainly a good few tories for whom standing firm, some kind of 'patriotism' against May's deal, has become a part of their political identity.


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

I think both the Tories and Labour should be very keen on not running EU elections - it could be an absolute bloodbath for both of them, and give both the far right and a pro-eu centrist group big wins and an electoral base to build on. I dunno if that threat will be enough to get a CU over the line, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 1, 2019)

What people need at this time is fucking Bob Geldof "bringing them together" 


> Britain needs to take special measures if it is ever to recover from the scarring social divisions exacerbated by Brexit, says a working party drawn from the country’s leading institutions.
> ....
> the Liberal Democrat representative argued strongly for party supporter Bob Geldof as “healing tsar”. One insider promoting Geldof’s credentials said: “He brought the country together with Live Aid – he can do it again.”


Yeah a bloke that slagged of leave voters as racists and dimwits is perfect.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> What people need at this time is fucking Bob Geldof "bringing them together"
> 
> Yeah a bloke that slagged of leave voters as racists and dimwits is perfect.


He does bring people together, everyone despises him


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> He does bring people together, everyone despises him


Nah, he's one of the People's Vote darlings.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Nah, he's one of the People's Vote darlings.


let's settle this the urban way, with a poll


----------



## rekil (Apr 1, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> What people need at this time is fucking Bob Geldof "bringing them together"
> 
> Yeah a bloke that slagged of leave voters as racists and dimwits is perfect.


Do you know what date it is? Now you must bear the shame of being had by a shit G joke.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 1, 2019)

copliker said:


> Do you know what date it is? Now you must bear the shame of being had by a shit G joke.


D'oh.
I guess it shows how stupid things have got when as moronic as this shit seems it doesn't seem that unlikely.


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> What people need at this time is fucking Bob Geldof "bringing them together"
> 
> Yeah a bloke that slagged of leave voters as racists and dimwits is perfect.


sorry to break this to you, but this is an obvious april fools.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Nah, he's one of the People's Vote darlings.


Bob Geldof: wanker or what?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think both the Tories and Labour should be very keen on not running EU elections - it could be an absolute bloodbath for both of them, and give both the far right and a pro-eu centrist group big wins and an electoral base to build on. I dunno if that threat will be enough to get a CU over the line, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does.


Initially I was thinking it would be quite amusing (if costly) to see the main parties having to draw up manifestos, go through the motions and lose seats. I think you are right though, there's certainly potential for the far right and for things to get nasty. Only thing in the UK is there would be a split between ukip and farage's new lot.


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Initially I was thinking it would be quite amusing (if costly) to see the main parties having to draw up manifestos, go through the motions and lose seats. I think you are right though, there's certainly potential for the far right and for things to get nasty. Only thing in the UK is there would be a split between ukip and farage's new lot.


I think UKIP would do similar numbers to BNP at their peak, probably a bit more. Tommy Robinson a shoe-in for MEP. Farage's new vehicle would mop up the rest of the brexit vote, Tories would be annihilated. Not totally sure what would happen to the Labour vote, probably not savaged as badly, but I can see TIG and the Lib Dems (even the greens) making big inroads.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 1, 2019)

I don't recognise the pollster (Delta Poll UK) and of course polls are bouncing around like mad right now, but their poll says CHUK steals tory votes:


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## newbie (Apr 1, 2019)

So far as I can see this customs union lark, like May's deal, is a far worse idea than either crashing out or just staying put.  I can see sense in properly leaving just as I can see why many are demanding to stay in but half-hearted in and out at the same time dancing around the edge strikes me as absurd.


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

Crispy said:


> I don't recognise the pollster (Delta Poll UK) and of course polls are bouncing around like mad right now, but their poll says CHUK steals tory votes:



this is also a good point - how much impact TIG could have on nose-holding centrist tory voters who'd never vote Corbyn has been really undersold. Imagine there's a lot of people very suddenly waking up to it after this poll landed...


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 1, 2019)

Crispy said:


> I don't recognise the pollster (Delta Poll UK)


Boon, Flatters and Twyman launch Deltapoll | News


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 1, 2019)

newbie said:


> So far as I can see this customs union lark, like May's deal, is a far worse idea than either crashing out or just staying put.  I can see sense in properly leaving just as I can see why many are demanding to stay in but half-hearted in and out at the same time dancing around the edge strikes me as absurd.


You can't see the benefit in trying for a Brexit that reduces economic disruption compared to no-deal? It won't be JRM losing his job in a no-deal scenario will it? The UK could always potentially leave the customs union later, and maybe that will turn out to be a good idea. But I think there are definite advantages to a gradual withdrawal when so much of the economy is dependent on the EU. JRM and co are fucking vultures who don't care about economic contraction because they will just turn it to their advantage, but I don't know why others would advocate for it.


----------



## elbows (Apr 1, 2019)




----------



## newbie (Apr 1, 2019)

.


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## newbie (Apr 1, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> he UK could always potentially leave the customs union later, and maybe that will turn out to be a good idea.


That just punts the decision into the long grass without any of the clear reasons for staying as is or actually satisfying the people who voted Leave meaning properly out. No-one gets closure, everyone ends up with a grievance.


----------



## xenon (Apr 1, 2019)

newbie said:


> So far as I can see this customs union lark, like May's deal, is a far worse idea than either crashing out or just staying put.  I can see sense in properly leaving just as I can see why many are demanding to stay in but half-hearted in and out at the same time dancing around the edge strikes me as absurd.



I've never understood what amazing deals the ability to negociate your own trade arrangements outside the CU is supposed to bring. Creating a situation where you're reduced block buying power is supposed to get you what, inferior goods and products that sellers can't offload on to the larger markets. Obviously makes no sense on an economies of scale. Which is why those arguing for it have to rely on xenophobia and jingoistic bullshit.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 1, 2019)

newbie said:


> That just punts the decision into the long grass without any of the clear reasons for staying as is or actually satisfying the people who voted Leave meaning properly out. No-one gets closure, everyone ends up with a grievance.


Don't you think that a close to 50/50 split always meant that everyone had to compromise?

I also don't think that there is a clear vote to say 'we' must negotiate 'our' own trade deals - that's just reading things into the vote that weren't there. You talk about people's 'clear reasons' for staying or 'properly leaving', but clarity of reasons is precisely what we don't have. And as has been repeatedly pointed out, what 'leaving' meant swung towards hard brexit under Theresa May - under the Leave campaign it meant many different things, including promising to stay in the single market.

Edit: a useful page on this: What was promised about the customs union before the referendum?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 1, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Don't you think that a close to 50/50 split always meant that everyone had to compromise?
> 
> I also don't think that there is a clear vote to say 'we' must negotiate 'our' own trade deals - that's just reading things into the vote that weren't there. You talk about people's 'clear reasons' for staying or 'properly leaving', but clarity of reasons is precisely what we don't have. And as has been repeatedly pointed out, what 'leaving' meant swung towards hard brexit under Theresa May - under the Leave campaign it meant many different things, including promising to stay in the single market.
> 
> Edit: a useful page on this: What was promised about the customs union before the referendum?


From what I remember of the campaigns, there were few specifics. It was 'take back control' vs 'stronger together'. Then of course there is the problem that there wasn't really one leave campaign - there was a bunch of groups, each advocating a different version of brexit, none of whom would have a mandate to attempt their version if they won.

Seems to me, in the structure of the referendum, they tried to ape parliamentary elections, with official campaign groups that would receive state funding. But the absence of a mandate for a group to take power if the result was the 'change' option made that structure really a bit ridiculous.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 1, 2019)

xenon said:


> I've never understood what amazing deals the ability to negociate your own trade arrangements outside the CU is supposed to bring. Creating a situation where you're reduced block buying power is supposed to get you what, inferior goods and products that sellers can't offload on to the larger markets. Obviously makes no sense on an economies of scale. Which is why those arguing for it have to rely on xenophobia and jingoistic bullshit.


Only consistency I can see in that position beyond arrogant xenophobia and joingoism comes from a naked desire to embark upon a race to the bottom regarding worker rights, consumer standards and environmental protection.


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

Labour and SNP both whipping for Common Market 2.0 in the indicative votes today - good chance it'll pass I reckon.


----------



## Flavour (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> Labour and SNP both whipping for Common Market 2.0 in the indicative votes today - good chance it'll pass I reckon.



If it passes, then what? May is forced to break her red lines and say single market / customs union (aka Norway+) is ok to the EU, and we Brexit without really Brexiting? Or can she refuse to change her negotiating, say "it's my deal or no deal!" once again?


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

Flavour said:


> If it passes, then what? May is forced to break her red lines and say single market / customs union (aka Norway+) is ok to the EU, and we Brexit without really Brexiting? Or can she refuse to change her negotiating, say "it's my deal or no deal!" once again?


Fuck knows. Reckon they'll try to have another stab at the meaningful vote, but I've really no idea what happens next.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think UKIP would do similar numbers to BNP at their peak, probably a bit more. Tommy Robinson a shoe-in for MEP. Farage's new vehicle would mop up the rest of the brexit vote, Tories would be annihilated. Not totally sure what would happen to the Labour vote, probably not savaged as badly, but I can see TIG and the Lib Dems (even the greens) making big inroads.


Tommy Robinson was exactly what I was thinking about. Though he might come up against restrictions on candidates that have more than a 1 year prison conviction? Can't remember the length of his sentences tbh.  Bobby Sands stood of course, though I have a feeling they changed the law after that the hunger strikes.

Edit: yes, it was the 1981 Representation of the Peoples Act
Edit 2: but I'm not sure if the same restrictions apply to the Euro Parliament elections.


----------



## andysays (Apr 1, 2019)

Flavour said:


> If it passes, then what? May is forced to break her red lines and say single market / customs union (aka Norway+) is ok to the EU, and we Brexit without really Brexiting? Or can she refuse to change her negotiating, say "it's my deal or no deal!" once again?


If she did that, she would alienate significant numbers of her own MPs who have been prepared to support her up to now and risk splitting the party.


----------



## alsoknownas (Apr 1, 2019)

Is it likely that Britain could join Efta with no hassles?  Would the existing members want what would be a (relatively) dominant economy on board?  Do they even get a say?  How does it work?


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> Labour and SNP both whipping for Common Market 2.0 in the indicative votes today - good chance it'll pass I reckon.


Indeed. If they all vote, that’s already 280, without even the Tory proposer and any other Tories thus inclined.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 1, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> D'oh.
> I guess it shows how stupid things have got when as moronic as this shit seems it doesn't seem that unlikely.



I completely fell for that. It comes to something when an article like that is believable.


----------



## Flavour (Apr 1, 2019)

andysays said:


> If she did that, she would alienate significant numbers of her own MPs who have been prepared to support her up to now and risk splitting the party.



She's destined to alienate significant numbers of her own MPs in either case, whether she insults them with MV4 or accepts Norway+


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> this is also a good point - how much impact TIG could have on nose-holding centrist tory voters who'd never vote Corbyn has been really undersold. Imagine there's a lot of people very suddenly waking up to it after this poll landed...



The look on Chuka's face if the Tiggers spoilt the Tory vote enough to give Corbyn a majority...


----------



## Flavour (Apr 1, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> Is it likely that Britain could join Efta with no hassles?  Would the existing members want what would be a (relatively) dominant economy on board?  Do they even get a say?  How does it work?



They could in theory refuse to allow the UK to enter, and I'm sure there are many politicians in the EFTA countries who would be opposed to the UK's entry, and the press in the Uk would give a lot of column inches to these politicians... but it suits capitalism too much for their opposition to be anything other than hot air. The pressure from Germany / the EU to let the UK into the EFTA would be very big.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Indeed. If they all vote, that’s already 280, without even the Tory proposer and any other Tories thus inclined.


So, that's D here then:
What are MPs voting on?

I also read May has instructed the Cabinet to abstain on all amendments. The Cabinet is split so that doesn't alter the voting balance too much. But it does reduce the legitimacy of the winning amendment(s). They may well win/get the most votes, but not achieve half of the H of C. Could even win but get less than she got for her failed mv3.


----------



## andysays (Apr 1, 2019)

Flavour said:


> She's destined to alienate significant numbers of her own MPs in either case, whether she insults them with MV4 or accepts Norway+


Let's hope so.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, that's D here then:
> What are MPs voting on?
> 
> I also read May has instructed the Cabinet to abstain on all amendments. The Cabinet is split so that doesn't alter the voting balance too much. But it does reduce the legitimacy of the winning amendment(s). They may well win/get the most votes, but not achieve half of the H of C. Could even win but get less than she got for her failed mv3.



Will be interesting to see if they pay any attention.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Will be interesting to see if they pay any attention.


If May says the winning vote didn't get 50% of the (Parliamentary) electorate and so is invalid, that certainly opens up a line of argument for remainers.


----------



## xenon (Apr 1, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Only consistency I can see in that position beyond arrogant xenophobia and joingoism comes from a naked desire to embark upon a race to the bottom regarding worker rights, consumer standards and environmental protection.



Of course and it's been ovvious from the moment leaving with no deal / clean break rhetoric from the likes of Rees-mogg came to the fore. The clok of plucky Britiania, we used to rule the waves, doing deals, Britain! crap being the only way you could sell it to normal people. These arseholes now claiming the Brexit people voted for is their's. "People voted for pain." A few did, the foaming, self delusional bitter little Englander types but it's not what I heard from anyone I know who voted out or was sympathetic to it.


----------



## newbie (Apr 1, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Don't you think that a close to 50/50 split always meant that everyone had to compromise?
> 
> I also don't think that there is a clear vote to say 'we' must negotiate 'our' own trade deals - that's just reading things into the vote that weren't there. You talk about people's 'clear reasons' for staying or 'properly leaving', but clarity of reasons is precisely what we don't have. And as has been repeatedly pointed out, what 'leaving' meant swung towards hard brexit under Theresa May - under the Leave campaign it meant many different things, including promising to stay in the single market.
> 
> Edit: a useful page on this: What was promised about the customs union before the referendum?


I haven't said anything about trade deals. 

If there was a consensus available that would or could satisfy a reasonable majority of the public it would have been found by now.  No-one protesting in Parliament Sq has a sign saying "We want a fudge and we want in now".  They're saying either "Leave means Leave" or "We already have the best deal".


----------



## alsoknownas (Apr 1, 2019)

Flavour said:


> They could in theory refuse to allow the UK to enter, and I'm sure there are many politicians in the EFTA countries who would be opposed to the UK's entry, and the press in the Uk would give a lot of column inches to these politicians... but it suits capitalism too much for their opposition to be anything other than hot air. The pressure from Germany / the EU to let the UK into the EFTA would be very big.


That is true, but isn't also true to say that resisting political pressure from Germany and France is a large part of why EFTA exists in the first place?


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

newbie said:


> I haven't said anything about trade deals.
> 
> If there was a consensus available that would or could satisfy a reasonable majority of the public it would have been found by now.  No-one protesting in Parliament Sq has a sign saying "We want a fudge and we want in now".  They're saying either "Leave means Leave" or "We already have the best deal".


Everyone else just wants it over though.


----------



## Winot (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> Labour and SNP both whipping for Common Market 2.0 in the indicative votes today - good chance it'll pass I reckon.



Is this confirmed? Pretty significant switch from Labour if so as it's not what they promised in their manifesto (of course they lost so no need to stick to manifesto, but even still...)


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

Winot said:


> Is this confirmed? Pretty significant switch from Labour if so as it's not what they promised in their manifesto (of course they lost so no need to stick to manifesto, but even still...)


Reported across multiple news sources this afternoon. It may have changed since I last looked mind...


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 1, 2019)

Winot said:


> Is this confirmed? Pretty significant switch from Labour if so as it's not what they promised in their manifesto (of course they lost so no need to stick to manifesto, but even still...)


Brexit: Labour to support Norway-style EU proposal Labour to support Norway-style proposal


----------



## andysays (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> Reported across multiple news sources this afternoon. It may have changed since I last looked mind...


At least one Labour MP looks to be planning to defy the whip and vote against 


> Kevin Barron MP
> 
> Small reminder of the manifesto that all Labour MPs were elected on in 2017. Clearly states that we will end freedom of movement when we leave the EU. This is not compatible with supporting Common Market 2.0, I will be voting against.


If it does pass the indicative vote tonight and somehow goes on to be put to a substantive vote, is there a real chance of the Tory party being split? I'd like to think so, but it may just be wishful thinking...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 1, 2019)

Um, Kevin Barron, you're not in government. 

It's a novel idea - that parties should stick rigidly to the manifestoes of the previous election, even if they lose. Can we go back to the 1983 Labour manifesto, please.


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

andysays said:


> At least one Labour MP looks to be planning to defy the whip and vote against


There will be a few break the whip, as ever. It's still significant they're whipping for it though, and it will mean bigger numbers than last week.


----------



## Winot (Apr 1, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Brexit: Labour to support Norway-style EU proposal Labour to support Norway-style proposal



Slightly odd article. Headline is definitive but standfirst waters that down to say "Labour MPs are being urged to back a plan to keep the UK in a Norway-style relationship with the EU" and then doesn't say who is doing the urging.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 1, 2019)

If Common Market 2.0 gets a majority in parliament, is there a significant risk that the ERG and associated nutters will switch to supporting May's deal in order to fend it off? Might they end up giving TM what she wants...?


----------



## Winot (Apr 1, 2019)

FWIW the reason I *didn't* vote for Labour in the 2017 GE was their manifesto pledge to end freedom of movement, so I am happy if they have done a U-turn.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 1, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Um, Kevin Barron, you're not in government.
> 
> It's a novel idea - that parties should stick rigidly to the manifestoes of the previous election, even if they lose. Can we go back to the 1983 Labour manifesto, please.



You know that included withdrawal from the EEC right?


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> If Common Market 2.0 gets a majority in parliament, is there a significant risk that the ERG and associated nutters will switch to supporting May's deal in order to fend it off? Might they end up giving TM what she wants...?


There's a risk of this, yeah.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> There's a risk of this, yeah.


So, in a way, the worst thing that can happen for those supporting 2.0 is that they win the indicative vote? Could even be that May _wants_ them to win, but with less than 50% of MPs voting for it, in order to attract the 'hard to reach' erg arses. 

There's a good chance that both of the sentences above are wrong, but given the lunacy of where we are at, 'might be true'.


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, in a way, the worst thing that can happen for those supporting 2.0 is that they win the indicative vote? Could even be that May _wants_ them to win, but with less than 50% of MPs voting for it, in order to attract the 'hard to reach' erg arses.
> 
> There's a good chance that both of the sentences above are wrong, but given the lunacy of where we are at, 'might be true'.


the only way _anything_ gets through is by taking it to the edge. but yes, if the balance of interests goes the other way tomorrow, then winning tonight doesn't mean much. But it also means that in the breach, May has the numbers.


----------



## tommers (Apr 1, 2019)

But then people who think that maybe there is a chance of something better won't vote for her shitty deal.

At the moment it's "my deal or no deal".

What if that isn't the case by the end of today?


----------



## Winot (Apr 1, 2019)

tommers said:


> But then people who think that maybe there is a chance of something better won't vote for her shitty deal.
> 
> At the moment it's "my deal or no deal".
> 
> What if that isn't the case by the end of today?



Today is just indicative and non-binding but the business motion (just passed in the face of Government objection) gives MPs a day on Wednesday in which they are in control of business. In theory they could use Wednesday to pass legislation requiring May to take whatever is passed today to the EU. If she refuses then there would be a GE.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

tommers said:


> But then people who think that maybe there is a chance of something better won't vote for her shitty deal.
> 
> At the moment it's "my deal or no deal".
> 
> What if that isn't the case by the end of today?


Yes, the one thing she's been good at is keeping it as 'my deal vs x bad thing'. There's all sorts of chat about her being emotionally unable to engage, chat, work something out, but it has also been strategic. It's just about the only line that holds the tory party together and delivers some kind (dogs breakfast) brexit. She really has run out of road now, though I still think there's an outside chance she'll get it through.  Probably depends how remainy the DUP have become in the last 3 days.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 1, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> You know that included withdrawal from the EEC right?


Yes I do. Without a referendum too. Almost like there's more to politics than brexit.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> There's a risk of this, yeah.



Could see some pro-EU Tories who've backed it up until now not bothering though.


----------



## steeplejack (Apr 1, 2019)

Plus DUP intransigence over her deal.


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yes, the one thing she's been good at is keeping it as 'my deal vs x bad thing'. There's all sorts of chat about her being emotionally unable to engage, chat, work something out, but it has also been strategic. It's just about the only line that holds the tory party together and delivers some kind (dogs breakfast) brexit. She really has run out of road now, though I still think there's an outside chance she'll get it through.  Probably depends how remainy the DUP have become in the last 3 days.



TBF that has been her greatest failure, not a thing that she is good at.  

I don't want to summon up the spirits of the dead, but Thatcher would have looked at May's problem and seen that the only way out of this was her confronting them with the choice of her deal or no Brexit; the ERG are the people who need to be threatened after all and no Brexit is the only thing she can threaten them with.  This policy of appeasing them whilst threatening the rest with something her rebels actively want has been idiocy.


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

agricola said:


> TBF that has been her greatest failure, not a thing that she is good at.
> 
> I don't want to summon up the spirits of the dead, but Thatcher would have looked at May's problem and seen that the only way out of this was her confronting them with the choice of her deal or no Brexit; the ERG are the people who need to be threatened after all and no Brexit is the only thing she can threaten them with.  This policy of appeasing them whilst threatening the rest with something her rebels actively want has been idiocy.


No Brexit isn't really a threat she can follow through on though.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

agricola said:


> TBF that has been her greatest failure, not a thing that she is good at.
> 
> I don't want to summon up the spirits of the dead, but Thatcher would have looked at May's problem and seen that the only way out of this was her confronting them with the choice of her deal or no Brexit; the ERG are the people who need to be threatened after all and no Brexit is the only thing she can threaten them with.  This policy of appeasing them whilst threatening the rest with something her rebels actively want has been idiocy.


She's no good at either threatening or glad handing. Her strategy has been one of holding a knife to her party's throat and now her own. It's shit but it's also got her to now. Failing now later rather than earlier perhaps.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 1, 2019)

Big up to the 'naked' protesters in the public gallery.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> Labour and SNP both whipping for Common Market 2.0 in the indicative votes today - good chance it'll pass I reckon.



Oh happy fucking day if the Tories had to swallow that one. It could detonate the fuckers. 

For sure they’d probably manage some way of ignoring it, but god they would squirm.


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

The government has shown no sign of paying attention to anything parliament demands unless it has to, so as it's non-binding I expect them to ignore it.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> The government has shown no sign of paying attention to anything parliament demands unless it has to, so as it's non-binding I expect them to ignore it.



Yep, but the ways out are diminishing though. If Parliament chooses a customs union it won’t ever choose May’s ‘deal’ as it is. That leaves no deal (no), a new referendum or a General Election. That’s a whole load of not what the Government wants.


----------



## Winot (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> The government has shown no sign of paying attention to anything parliament demands unless it has to, so as it's non-binding I expect them to ignore it.



My understanding is that time is set aside on Wednesday for MPs to turn it into legislation.


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

Winot said:


> My understanding is that time is set aside on Wednesday for MPs to turn it into legislation.


Yeah, and I'm not totally clear what would happen if they refused to act on that. Lots of people are saying 'general election!' but I haven't seen how we get to that yet.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 1, 2019)

.


----------



## andysays (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> The government has shown no sign of paying attention to anything parliament demands unless it has to, so as it's non-binding I expect them to ignore it.


As already mentioned


Winot said:


> ...the business motion (just passed in the face of Government objection) gives MPs a day on Wednesday in which they are in control of business. In theory they could use Wednesday to pass legislation requiring May to take whatever is passed today to the EU...


I'm not convinced that this would actually happen, because Conservatives voting to make it happen would be putting their version of Brexit before their party and risking splitting the party which very few would be willing to do, but there is a way it can happen


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> sorry to break this to you, but this is an obvious april fools.


Yep. Got me good.


----------



## andysays (Apr 1, 2019)

BBC reporting that LibDems won't vote for Common Market 2.0


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 1, 2019)

It’s going to be “no” to everything again, isn’t it?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 1, 2019)




----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

andysays said:


> BBC reporting that LibDems won't vote for Common Market 2.0



Of course, it might win otherwise.


----------



## Wookey (Apr 1, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It’s going to be “no” to everything again, isn’t it?



Closest looks to be Customs Union...


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> No Brexit isn't really a threat she can follow through on though.



It is when she knows she is going, and when there would probably be a majority for it in the Commons if it (revoking A50 as the alternative to no deal) was a government motion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It’s going to be “no” to everything again, isn’t it?


It's a 'yes' to confusion


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

agricola said:


> It is when she knows she is going, and when there would probably be a majority for it in the Commons if it (revoking A50 as the alternative to no deal) was a government motion.


there wouldn't be though. there isn't a majority for anything. that's the problem.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Apr 1, 2019)

(Sorry, it _really_ annoys me when people do this   )


----------



## kebabking (Apr 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> there wouldn't be though. there isn't a majority for anything. that's the problem.



With no deal as the default, legal position at 11pm on the 12th, as long as there's no majority for anything else, then no deal happens.

The EU have knocked one of the options off the table - that of another short extension - it's either a long extension (in pursuit of whatever...) or crash out. Neither are attractive...


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> It's a 'yes' to confusion



Will confusion give way to temptation? Blue Monday for May if so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Will confusion give way to temptation? Blue Monday for May if so.


I prefer neckshot for may tbh


----------



## killer b (Apr 1, 2019)

kebabking said:


> With no deal as the default, legal position at 11pm on the 12th, as long as there's no majority for anything else, then no deal happens.
> 
> The EU have knocked one of the options off the table - that of another short extension - it's either a long extension (in pursuit of whatever...) or crash out. Neither are attractive...


I know that's where we are now, and what will in the end force something through (unless another fudge is arranged by agreeing to participate in EU elections - I've mentioned above why I think both main parties will be very keen on avoiding that).  I was responding to the idea that May could have faced down the headbangers with her deal or no brexit a couple of years ago - and it just wouldn't have worked as it wasn't a credible threat then.


----------



## Ted Striker (Apr 1, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It’s going to be “no” to everything again, isn’t it?



Absolute fucking wankers. How many days of people calling them exactly this does it need?

Every single faction giving it full beans on "Oh yeah, I'm deffo up for a compromise matey/as long as it's my option"


----------



## kenny g (Apr 1, 2019)

Watching some of these clowns on TV it is difficult to believe they can negotiate a roundabout let alone any kind of roadmap.


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Watching some of these clowns on TV it is difficult to believe they can negotiate a roundabout let alone any kind of roadmap.



the amount of Tories who starve to death in their cars as the result of refusing to turn left would surprise you


----------



## teuchter (Apr 1, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Watching some of these clowns on TV it is difficult to believe they can negotiate a roundabout let alone any kind of roadmap.


At least they are not as bad as urban75's own Brexit committee who have not yet even managed to vote for anything.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 1, 2019)

so just like the house of parliament atm


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

Clarke's lost (by three)
Boles' lost
Kyle's lost (by 13)
Cherry's lost (by loads)

its that TIG again


----------



## Balbi (Apr 1, 2019)

Absolutely incredible work from the Parliament


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 1, 2019)




----------



## Balbi (Apr 1, 2019)

Go on my son.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 1, 2019)

FFS absolute fucking shambles


----------



## Supine (Apr 1, 2019)

Balbi said:


> Absolutely incredible work from the Parliament


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 1, 2019)

HaHaHa X a lot!


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

Boles quits live on TV

scenes


----------



## Supine (Apr 1, 2019)

Conservative just resigned live in the house


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 1, 2019)




----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 1, 2019)

Boles flounced


----------



## binka (Apr 1, 2019)

agricola said:


> Boles quits live on TV
> 
> scenes


'oh nick dont go'


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 1, 2019)

Flounce


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 1, 2019)

agricola said:


> Boles quits live on TV
> 
> scenes


What did he quit from?


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 1, 2019)

Got it now. Party whip.


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> What did he quit from?



Torydom


----------



## Balbi (Apr 1, 2019)

Reality


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 1, 2019)

God I find the People's Vote lot are fucking useless


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 1, 2019)

the grumpy cats have it


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> God I find the People's Vote lot are fucking useless



TIG's claim that the looming no deal will be Corbyn's fault will be worth laughing at, I feel.


----------



## Santino (Apr 1, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> God I find the People's Vote lot are fucking useless


They are after all the people who brought you the Remain campaign.


----------



## Balbi (Apr 1, 2019)

I want to see the divisions on this.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 1, 2019)

so when is mays next vote?


----------



## tommers (Apr 1, 2019)

Tories again voted against everything apart from glorious no deal.

Such a bunch of useless fucking wankers. Along with those TIG cunts too.

Just make it stop you fucks.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 1, 2019)




----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 1, 2019)

tommers said:


> Tories again voted against everything apart from glorious no deal.
> 
> Such a bunch of useless fucking wankers. Along with those TIG cunts too.
> 
> Just make it stop you fucks.



Amen to that.


----------



## xenon (Apr 1, 2019)

MV4 nextup. Gfjjdtbbkxn


----------



## Balbi (Apr 1, 2019)




----------



## Ax^ (Apr 1, 2019)

tommers said:


> Tories again voted against everything apart from glorious no deal.
> 
> Such a bunch of useless fucking wankers. Along with those TIG cunts too.
> 
> Just make it stop you fucks.



do mp's  get overtime


----------



## xenon (Apr 1, 2019)

Tories are still cunts. Some stability at least.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 1, 2019)

is there a boled out pun here...


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

Balbi said:


> View attachment 166339



... a statement that was also made the last time 280-odd Tories voted to try and destroy the country.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 1, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> so just like the house of parliament atm


No. The HoP is way ahead of the shambles that is urban75's effort. At least they manage to turn up and vote.


----------



## Balbi (Apr 1, 2019)

agricola said:


> ... a statement that was also made the last time 280-odd Tories voted to try and destroy the country.



Look, they can't possibly fuck Ireland up worse than that ti.....oh nah never mind.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 1, 2019)

agricola said:


> ... a statement that was also made the last time 280-odd Tories voted to try and destroy the country.


technically the announcement of a military coup tho 

anyway the best bit is 'ye have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your god'


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 1, 2019)

cannie bring meself to like anything quoting Oliver Cromwell

see that the difference between myself and Ress Mogg


----------



## kabbes (Apr 1, 2019)

teuchter said:


> No. The HoP is way ahead of the shambles that is urban75's effort. At least they manage to turn up and vote.


You do know that the HoP have the powers to make laws but urban75 don’t, right?


----------



## Balbi (Apr 1, 2019)

TIG sinking the customs union because they want a People's Vote that they'll lose because they're cunts as we barrel towards April 12th is absolutely perfect triangulation from those Blairy shites.


----------



## binka (Apr 1, 2019)

Mark Francois "I'm not going to criticise nick boles because he fought off cancer and we all respect that" 

The man is insane / really thick


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

binka said:


> Mark Francois "I'm not going to criticise nick boles because he fought off cancer and we all respect that"
> 
> The man is insane / really thick



He is going on about attempted coups now, the red faced biscuit thief.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 1, 2019)

binka said:


> Mark Francois "I'm not going to criticise nick boles because he fought off cancer and we all respect that"
> 
> The man is insane / really thick



And people vote for him to represent them.


----------



## Balbi (Apr 1, 2019)

When did Mark Francois, the political equivalent of a condom filled with diarrhoea, become a leading commentator


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 1, 2019)

agricola said:


> He is going on about attempted coups now, the red faced biscuit thief.



Will Self should have  laid him out.


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Will Self should have  laid him out.



Will Self should have done a lot more of that sort of thing.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 1, 2019)

Balbi said:


> I want to see the divisions on this.


Balbi


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 1, 2019)

DUP are pigs in shit, aren't they? Vote after vote after vote, they can just say NO!


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 1, 2019)

Balbi said:


> TIG sinking the customs union because they want a People's Vote that they'll lose because they're cunts as we barrel towards April 12th is absolutely perfect triangulation from those Blairy shites.


I'm going to be interested to hear what they say of their voting against a customs union if we crash out. I mean, not *really* interested, because it will be a load of horseshit, but slightly interested.


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

lol @ Soubry trying to tempt Boles

edit:  when she didn't vote for his deal


----------



## Cid (Apr 1, 2019)

Balbi said:


> TIG sinking the customs union because they want a People's Vote that they'll lose because they're cunts as we barrel towards April 12th is absolutely perfect triangulation from those Blairy shites.



33 labour abstentions apparently... I'm not 100% on this, but it's quote on the graun and matches a vague head count on divisions.

I mean... I'm not going to pretend customs 2.0 had me very excited, but fuck, just to get _something_ done.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 1, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> DUP are pigs in shit, aren't they? Vote after vote after vote, they can just say NO!



is anyone fucking surprised by this


aside from Teresa


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

Been out all night, just logged on to see which one had 'won'. 

Fucking Tiggers, lol. 

Err.. that's about all I can think of.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 1, 2019)

Can the tiggers not just join the lib dems and just stop pretending to be a separate party


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

These are the Tories who voted for a customs union. Looking forward to their deselections/voncs: 


> Richard Benyon (Newbury), Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford), Steve Brine (Winchester), Robert Buckland (South Swindon), Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire), Alex Chalk (Cheltenham), Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe), Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire), Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon), Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton), Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East), Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster), Vicky Ford (Chelmsford), Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire), Richard Graham (Gloucester), Damian Green (Ashford), Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon), Richard Harrington (Watford), Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire), Nick Herbert (Arundel and South Downs), Margot James (Stourbridge), Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford), Oliver Letwin (West Dorset), Paul Masterton (East Renfrewshire), Anne Milton (Guildford), Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield), Nicky Morgan (Loughborough), Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst), Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth), Guy Opperman (Hexham), Mark Pawsey (Rugby), Victoria Prentis (Banbury), Antoinette Sandbach (Eddisbury), Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex), Caroline Spelman (Meriden), Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border), Edward Vaizey (Wantage).


----------



## Flavour (Apr 1, 2019)

No deal here we come


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

I think that Soubry interview was one of the most fib-filled that I've ever seen:

Bole's amendment wasn't really his
TIG voted against Boles' amendment because it wouldn't have tied the PM's hand
Labour were to blame for PV not passing, because 15 Labour MPs didn't vote for it whilst a whole 15 Tories did

... were some highlights


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> These are the Tories who voted for a customs union. Looking forward to their deselections/voncs:


tbf most of them voted for May's deal. Some even spoke up for it. They can claim with evidence that they tried to get May's deal through. 

Mind you, polling of tory party members puts around 70 per cent or more in favour of no deal crash out. Mad times.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Apr 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Fucking Tiggers, lol.
> 
> Err.. that's about all I can think of.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 1, 2019)

Has calling them the 'tinge' run its course?


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 1, 2019)

Flavour said:


> No deal here we come


That is looking increasingly likely.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 1, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Has calling them the 'tinge' run its course?



I think calling them a MP is insult enough these days.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 1, 2019)

Only 2 MPs would have had to change sides to get the customs union agreed. If there was the time to put into it that TM has had to put into persuading people of her deal, it would probably be possible to get it through. But we're out of time. This has all come too late.


----------



## Cid (Apr 1, 2019)

What's up next? Is she going to try MV4?

Yeah, no deal still seems most likely.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 1, 2019)

No Deal. Hard border in Ireland. GFA in shreds. Drug shortages. Food shortages. Fuel shortages. Power cuts. Army on the streets everywhere. 
Sales of balaclavas up.
Oh joy.
Seventies again.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 1, 2019)

kabbes said:


> You do know that the HoP have the powers to make laws but urban75 don’t, right?


I have offered to forward urban75's proposals to all MPs to give them the opportunity to make urban75's decisions law.


----------



## Santino (Apr 1, 2019)

teuchter said:


> I have offered to forward urban75's proposals to all MPs to give them the opportunity to make urban75's decisions law.


We've not agreed to that.


----------



## agricola (Apr 1, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Only 2 MPs would have had to change sides to get the customs union agreed. If there was the time to put into it that TM has had to put into persuading people of her deal, it would probably be possible to get it through. But we're out of time. This has all come too late.



11 TIG voted against it.


----------



## Balbi (Apr 1, 2019)

Gwan, chuck a General Election Theresa. Gwaaaaaaaaaan.


----------



## tommers (Apr 1, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> No Deal. Hard border in Ireland. GFA in shreds. Drug shortages. Food shortages. Fuel shortages. Power cuts. Army on the streets everywhere.
> Sales of balaclavas up.
> Oh joy.
> Seventies again.


Anything else is betraying democracy. [emoji106]

It's like being run by a bunch of public schoolboys brought up on stories of emp.. Oh right yeah.


----------



## Wookey (Apr 1, 2019)

teuchter said:


> I have offered to forward urban75's proposals to all MPs to give them the opportunity to make urban75's decisions law.



Seconded!!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

Cabinet meeting for 5 hours on this shit tomorrow. That's not exactly the first circle of hell, it's more a mezzanine floor.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Cabinet meeting for 5 hours on this shit tomorrow. That's not exactly the first circle of hell, it's more a mezzanine floor.



As in, up in the air?


----------



## teuchter (Apr 1, 2019)

Santino said:


> We've not agreed to that.


Discuss this with one of the self-appointed representatives. Not my problem.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 1, 2019)

I can imagine the Tigger conversations tonight:

'So, do you think we did the right thing tonight?'
- Oh yes, definitely. Sorry, actually, what _did_ we do?


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 1, 2019)

more so did we make the newsfeed


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 2, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I can imagine the Tigger conversations tonight:
> 
> 'So, do you think we did the right thing tonight?'
> - Oh yes, definitely. Sorry, actually, what _did_ we do?


Common Market 2.0 was the closest the lib dems and tingers could have got to what they really want, and they failed to vote for it because they're too pure to sully themselves with any form of Brexit. Personally I'm not sure it was a good option, but from their point of view it should have looked a good option. Because now the options are May's deal or crash out. If they're not regretting it already they will come to regret it. How did these incompetents get into such positions of power?


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 2, 2019)

Fucking CUKs


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Has calling them the 'tinge' run its course?


Aren’t they called change uk now? CUKs works well


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Common Market 2.0 was the closest the lib dems and tingers could have got to what they really want, and they failed to vote for it because they're too pure to sully themselves with any form of Brexit. Personally I'm not sure it was a good option, but from their point of view it should have looked a good option. Because now the options are May's deal or crash out. If they're not regretting it already they will come to regret it. How did these incompetents get into such positions of power?


I've predicted May will get her vote through at some point, only to see her fail to do so every time. In theory missing out tonight really should give her her best chance to get mv4 through. That's it, apart from Corbyn saying MPs should have another go at the indicative malarkey, they've failed to get anything through. They've given her the opportunity to say 'right that's it, it really is my shite or no deal, mega extension etc'. She still may not get it through, but tonight's shambles gives her her final but best shot. Cracking system.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 2, 2019)

agricola said:


> I think that Soubry interview was one of the most fib-filled that I've ever seen:
> 
> Bole's amendment wasn't really his
> TIG voted against Boles' amendment because it wouldn't have tied the PM's hand
> ...



had she been on the pop?


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Aren’t they called change uk now? CUKs works well



Yeah, but that's an insult that comes from the far right. Best not reused I reckon.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 2, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Aren’t they called change uk now? CUKs works well



upchuks?


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 2, 2019)

Cid said:


> Yeah, but that's an insult that comes from the far right. Best not reused I reckon.


Chuks?


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

As far as I am aware 'chuck' is not linked to the alt-right...


----------



## xenon (Apr 2, 2019)

Actually forget it edited, that was shit.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 2, 2019)

Wilf said:


> They've given her the opportunity to say 'right that's it, it really is my shite or no deal, mega extension etc'.



snag is, she's threatening one bunch of twunts with no deal if they don't vote for it, and another bunch of twunts with no (or very much delayed) brexit


----------



## xenon (Apr 2, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Chuks?



 Maggot fuckers.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 2, 2019)

Cid said:


> As far as I am aware 'chuck' is not linked to the alt-right...


I know I was amending their nickname to something more chuka-friendly.


----------



## Ming (Apr 2, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Big up to the 'naked' protesters in the public gallery.
> 
> View attachment 166298


Couldn’t they have worked out on a step master for a few weeks before hand? And maybe a spray tan?


----------



## Ming (Apr 2, 2019)




----------



## Ming (Apr 2, 2019)

We're fucked.


----------



## Ming (Apr 2, 2019)

Apart from the public school cunts.


----------



## kabbes (Apr 2, 2019)

Ming said:


> Couldn’t they have worked out on a step master for a few weeks before hand? And maybe a spray tan?


Do fuck off


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Common Market 2.0 was the closest the lib dems and tingers could have got to what they really want, and they failed to vote for it because they're too pure to sully themselves with any form of Brexit. Personally I'm not sure it was a good option, but from their point of view it should have looked a good option. Because now the options are May's deal or crash out. If they're not regretting it already they will come to regret it. How did these incompetents get into such positions of power?


Tactically really poor as well.

Voting for CM2 or CU last night wouldn't have made either of them happen, but would have given the EU a reason to offer a long extension to renegotiate a completely different deal.

But if there isn't a majority in parliament for *anything *then there's little point in an extension, which makes No Deal odds on...


----------



## Winot (Apr 2, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

xenon said:


> Maggot fuckers.


(((Maggot)))


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> Tactically really poor as well.
> 
> Voting for CM2 or CU last night wouldn't have made either of them happen, but would have given the EU a reason to offer a long extension to renegotiate a completely different deal.
> 
> But if there isn't a majority in parliament for *anything *then there's little point in an extension, which makes No Deal odds on...


If their tactic is to deliver a particular outcome. But their main tactic is to appeal to a constituency. 

Although, I think even that constituency will be baffled by their choices.


----------



## MrCurry (Apr 2, 2019)

I suppose she will go for MV4, if Bercow allows it, but assuming that fails, what are we left with? No deal, revoke A50 or ask for a long extension with a suitable plan attached (election or referendum). 

I cannot see any likelihood she will revoke A50 and I just don’t think they will ride over the cliff edge of hard Brexit, so I guess we are looking at May addressing the nation to say she has been unable to deliver Brexit due to the current parliament not supporting it, and therefore she resigns and calls an election to allow her successor to come back with a new approach. 

Whether the EU accept this and grant an extension or play hard ball and force A50 to be revoked will be interesting.


----------



## kabbes (Apr 2, 2019)

What exactly is it that the DUP want?  Other than the fun of saying NO as often as possible?  They wanted Brexit but they don’t want any of the versions anybody has suggested, including no deal.  I’m genuinely bemused.


----------



## chilango (Apr 2, 2019)

Mildly interesting to compare how the DUP have used their time propping up the Tories and what they've got out of it versus the Lib Dem's stint...


----------



## Balbi (Apr 2, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> I suppose she will go for MV4, if Bercow allows it, but assuming that fails, what are we left with? No deal, revoke A50 or ask for a long extension with a suitable plan attached (election or referendum).
> 
> I cannot see any likelihood she will revoke A50 and I just don’t think they will ride over the cliff edge of hard Brexit, so I guess we are looking at May addressing the nation to say she has been unable to deliver Brexit due to the current parliament not supporting it, and therefore she resigns and calls an election to allow her successor to come back with a new approach.
> 
> Whether the EU accept this and grant an extension or play hard ball and force A50 to be revoked will be interesting.



May has to get a two thirds majority to call an election aye - pro-Brexit MPs won't have that. Suppose she could no confidence herself, which would be amazing.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> If their tactic is to deliver a particular outcome. But their main tactic is to appeal to a constituency.


That makes sense for the LDs and tinge but not for others



			
				Toynbee said:
			
		

> Only the public can finally end the Brexit mania, but the choice put to voters must be fair. If the choice is only a “soft” customs union or remain, there would be a mighty stink from the leavers. Theresa May’s deal may not be hard enough for them, but it’s certainly not soft: the ballot paper choice must be her deal or remain.


What the actions of the tinge and Toynbee's nonsense does show is that she and the people's vote are even bit as ideological as the ERG. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but their pretence to be beyond "all that" is shit.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> That makes sense for the LDs and tinge but not for others


Yes, I was referring to Tinge mainly.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 2, 2019)

kabbes said:


> What exactly is it that the DUP want?  Other than the fun of saying NO as often as possible?  They wanted Brexit but they don’t want any of the versions anybody has suggested, including no deal.  I’m genuinely bemused.



A hard Brexit with the Union only a soft Brexit can provide. They'd prefer to have it imposed on them too, so they can sell a betrayed again narrative back home.

The more I think about it, the more stupid the PVers seem. This was your best chance you fucking idiots.


----------



## Balbi (Apr 2, 2019)

People's Vote are all utterly convinced they'd win a second vote which is deadly as fuck tbh.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 2, 2019)

Balbi said:


> People's Vote are all utterly convinced they'd win a second vote which is deadly as fuck tbh.


TBH I don't think that's such a stupid idea once you put up a specific deal vs remain, the odds start to go in their favour. What's fucking stupid is how they expect to get a 2nd vote now.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> That makes sense for the LDs and tinge but not for others  What the actions of the tinge and Toynbee's nonsense does show is that she and the people's vote are even bit as ideological as the ERG. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but their pretence to be beyond "all that" is shit.


Yeah, looks like only Remain, with absolutely no compromise, is enough for some, but in failing to compromise I suspect they're making No Deal the most likely result.


----------



## Balbi (Apr 2, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> TBH I don't think that's such a stupid idea once you put up a specific deal vs remain, the odds start to go in their favour. What's fucking stupid is how they expect to get a 2nd vote now.



Or at any point tbh. And get to determine the question with a precision which implies their victory. Way too much fart sniffing.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 2, 2019)

Which LD didn’t vote for a referendum? Is one of them on the sickbed?


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 2, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Which LD didn’t vote for a referendum? Is one of them on the sickbed?


Stephen Lloyd, resigned the whip.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

Lloyd is usually listed as an independent now, must be someone else


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> Lloyd is usually listed as an independent now, must be someone else


On the graphic Winot posted he's listed as IND(LD).

EDIT: The Guardian has all the LDs down as voting for the referendum.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

There's a single LD abstention on that final graphic someone posted upthread, but it's the one for extend/revoke rather than 2nd ref. That was Norman Lamb.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> There's a single LD abstention on that final graphic someone posted upthread, but it's the one for extend/revoke rather than 2nd ref. That was Norman Lamb.


One abstention on the 2nd ref too (which must mean Lloyd). Unless I'm being dense?


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> One abstention on the 2nd ref too (which must mean Lloyd). Unless I'm being dense?


It’s a slightly paler orange, so yes, Lloyd.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yes, I was referring to Tinge mainly.


read that as 'the tinge malady'


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> read that as 'the tinge malady'


If only we could find a vaccine.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 2, 2019)

Society will successfully inoculate itself at the next election, fear not.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Society will successfully inoculate itself at the next election, fear not.


It’s the politicians who need to be inoculated. With lead.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

((((Lead))))


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s the politicians who need to be inoculated. With lead.


gunpowder would do, a traditional remedy


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> gunpowder would do, a traditional remedy


Well, the building could be used for something else. So that would be wasteful.

Dung market is apt.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> gunpowder would do, a traditional remedy



Modernised by the addition of mercury tilt switches?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, the building could be used for something else. So that would be wasteful.
> 
> Dung market is apt.


if the commons and lords move out of the palace of westminster while the building is modernised then we could have several years to prepare for fireworks at the re-opening ceremony


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Modernised by the addition of mercury tilt switches?


why not?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Has calling them the 'tinge' run its course?



I'm still calling them the #LunaticTinge


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

kabbes said:


> What exactly is it that the DUP want?  Other than the fun of saying NO as often as possible?



Their place in Heaven at Paisley's right hand guaranteed. Which of course it already is, through virtue of them saying no to everything. So that's it really


----------



## kebabking (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> why not?



Needless expense?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Their place in Heaven at Paisley's right hand guaranteed. Which of course it already is, through virtue of them saying no to everything. So that's it really



Predestination? I concur.


----------



## Santino (Apr 2, 2019)

If Boles stands as an independent at the next election then he could campaign with the other independents, and call it CUK and BOLES.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

Santino said:


> If Boles stands as an independent at the next election then he could campaign with the other independents, and call it CUK and BOLES.


That would almost make the past few years all worth while, almost...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2019)

Ming said:


> Couldn’t they have worked out on a step master for a few weeks before hand? And maybe a spray tan?


Seriously? You've been reduced to making comments about people's bodies?


----------



## chilango (Apr 2, 2019)

Santino said:


> If Boles stands as an independent at the next election then he could campaign with the other independents, and call it CUK and BOLES.



But would traditional "spunking cock" voters end up having their votes counted towards this?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

Santino said:


> If Boles stands as an independent at the next election then he could campaign with the other independents, and call it CUK and BOLES.



Though all may have Irritable Boles Syndrome!


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Though all may have Irritable Boles Syndrome!


Oh, go on, have a like!


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh, go on, have a like!



Thank you, I would like to thank my family and colleagues, who have supported me in my quest.......


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

Dunno if it got a mention already by the way but Paisley Jr threw out the 'Never, Never' line - got less of a reaction than he probably expected.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Dunno if it got a mention already by the way but Paisley Jr threw out the 'Never, Never' line - got less of a reaction than he probably expected.



he doesn't have the voice for it


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

I’ve only seen sparse coverage (not surprisingly) of Sinn Féin’s meeting with Barnier yesterday. Any idea what results they attained?
Are they going to occupy their Westminster seats?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I’ve only seen sparse coverage (not surprisingly) of Sinn Féin’s meeting with Barnier yesterday. Any idea what results they attained?
> Are they going to occupy their Westminster seats?



I didn't even know it happened but no.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Apr 2, 2019)

So are we still hurtling towards a No Deal Brexit?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 2, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> So are we still hurtling towards a No Deal Brexit?



More stumbling, I'd say.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 2, 2019)

Clive Lewis is rapidly diminishing in my eyes. I knew he'd been a keen PVer, but he's now come out and said that even though he voted for a customs union that doesn't mean it would get through parliament with a couple more votes, because he and others would only vote for real for a customs union if it came with a PV. Helpful Clive, very fucking helpful.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> So are we still hurtling towards a No Deal Brexit?



I truly hope not, yet I think May’s plan is that she will get MV4 through by a whisker and pull the country out of this nosedive, become a saviour and spend the next five years blaming labour and foreign interests.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> So are we still hurtling towards a No Deal Brexit?



No, we never were. It's the one thing that definitely won't happen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> No, we never were. It's the one thing that definitely won't happen.


yeh it'll come down to the final furlong and a.50 will be revoked rather than dive headlong into the abyss


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

Can anyone explain why calling a grouping fronted by a mixed race man 'tinge' is a good idea?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> So are we still hurtling towards a No Deal Brexit?


i thought you'd dissociated yourself from all the other british nationals


----------



## kebabking (Apr 2, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I’ve only seen sparse coverage (not surprisingly) of Sinn Féin’s meeting with Barnier yesterday. Any idea what results they attained?
> Are they going to occupy their Westminster seats?



Nope, Mary Lou was on 5 live yesterday and was asked about it (Emma Barnett show iirc..) - she was adamant that SF wouldn't take their seats. EB pressed her on it saying that it might swing a customs union vote and MLM said the opposite, that SF turning up and voting for it would make it worse, presumably because there's not a great deal of electoral points to be gained for anyone in voting with SF.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> Can anyone explain why calling a grouping fronted by a mixed race man 'tinge' is a good idea?


heidi allen's not a mixed race man, is she?


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

I said fronted by not led by quite deliberately, you know.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought you'd dissociated yourself from all the other british nationals


Haha


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh it'll come down to the final furlong and a.50 will be revoked rather than dive headlong into the abyss


What is the process by which a.50 has to be revoked? Do MPs need to vote on it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

S☼I said:


> What is the process by which a.50 has to be revoked? Do MPs need to vote on it?


yeh they would need to.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> Can anyone explain why calling a grouping fronted by a mixed race man 'tinge' is a good idea?


Yes, Angela Smith can.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh they would need to.


Won't they vote no?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> I said fronted by not led by quite deliberately, you know.


yes, i thought you were trying out new ways of saying things.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 2, 2019)

S☼I said:


> What is the process by which a.50 has to be revoked? Do MPs need to vote on it?



The EU organs say yes, sensibly perhaps they say that for revokation to be valid it had to go through the same method as the A50 process.

While there's nothing they can do to stop a in-out-hokey-kokey gangfuck by a member state, they want to make such shenanigans more difficult.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Won't they vote no?


now? yes. coming up to h-hour on 12 april? maybe they'll think differently.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yes, Angela Smith can.


did she coin it?  In any case that doesn't explain why people here are using it.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 2, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Won't they vote no?


This just in from parliament:  "No we will not!"


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> did she coin it?  In any case that doesn't explain why people here are using it.


perhaps you should go back to the beginning and catch up as you seem to have missed some important episodes.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 2, 2019)

From the ECJ ruling:



> 105. Although not exactly the same situation as that described in the preceding paragraph, *if, as a result of action carried out in accordance with its constitutional requirements (for example, a referendum, a meaningful vote in Parliament, the holding of general elections which produce an opposing majority, among other cases)*, the Member State’s initial decision is reversed and the judicial and constitutional basis on which it was sustained subsequently disappears, I also believe that it is logical, in line with Article 50(1) TEU, that that State can and must notify that change to the European Council.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> now? yes. coming up to h-hour on 12 april? maybe they'll think differently.


Maybe? Trouble. Maybe not? Trouble.

This really is shaping up, oddly, to be both endlessly tedious and yet clearly interesting times.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)




----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> did she coin it?  In any case that doesn't explain why people here are using it.


Angela Smith, in an interview on the very first day of their existence as a group driven out of Labour by racism, spoke of people with a 'funny tinge', which is where the term has come from. 

I agree people shouldn't use it, but more because comedy names for political parties are painfully unfunny than any other reason.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> I said fronted by not led by quite deliberately, you know.


And why do you think the term is being used (in this particular case)?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> did she coin it?  In any case that doesn't explain why people here are using it.



Research Angela Smith around the 18th February.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Maybe? Trouble. Maybe not? Trouble.
> 
> This really is shaping up, oddly, to be both endlessly tedious and yet clearly interesting times.


i don't think revoking a.50 will end this! it will just start the next phase of this intriguing drama


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> did she coin it?  In any case that doesn't explain why people here are using it.


It was a remarkable faux pas on the day of their inception. She said “people with a funny Tinge”, then had to reverse.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

Santino said:


> If Boles stands as an independent at the next election then he could campaign with the other independents, and call it CUK and BOLES.


Stephen Bush got in first with this:


----------



## kebabking (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> did she coin it?  In any case that doesn't explain why people here are using it.



One of the no-hopers/heroes of democracy got herself into a fluster at their first press conference. She was talking about people of all colours and heritages having a place (or something, it was the standard waffle people use when they've little to say and a lot of time to do it in...), and instead of 'colours' she used the word 'tinges'. That, added to their tediously long name, meant they became the Tinge...

I like it, it's deliciously dismissive.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> Angela Smith, in an interview on the very first day of their existence as a group driven out of Labour by racism, spoke of people with a 'funny tinge', which is where the term has come from.
> 
> I agree people shouldn't use it, but more because comedy names for political parties are painfully unfunny than any other reason.


thankyou, I didn't know that.  

So a dog whistle has been picked up by people here in some sort of clever-clever ironic way and everyone is supposed to be in on the 'joke'.  Well done.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> thankyou, I didn't know that.
> 
> So a dog whistle has been picked up by people here in some sort of clever-clever ironic way and everyone is supposed to be in on the 'joke'.  Well done.


have a read so you can catch on the backstory Chuka Umunna resigns from Labour party and launches Independent Group


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> thankyou, I didn't know that.
> 
> So a dog whistle has been picked up by people here in some sort of clever-clever ironic way and everyone is supposed to be in on the 'joke'.  Well done.


so by dog whistle you mean that la smith is trying to signal something to certain people? not sure you're on the ball here


----------



## kebabking (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> thankyou, I didn't know that.
> 
> So a dog whistle has been picked up by people here in some sort of clever-clever ironic way and everyone is supposed to be in on the 'joke'.  Well done.



It wasn't a dog whistle,  it was AS having a tongue-tied, foot-in-mouth, laughing-at-a-funeral moment. She was flustered, visibly emotional and obviously upset and her words came out wrong.

Calling them the Tinge is both a piss take and a political comment on them being a bit 'meh...'.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> thankyou, I didn't know that.
> 
> So a dog whistle has been picked up by people here in some sort of clever-clever ironic way and everyone is supposed to be in on the 'joke'.  Well done.


it seems to be fairly widespread elsewhere tbf. I don't think it was a dogwhistle so much as a racist slip of the tongue though fwiw.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> so by dog whistle you mean that la smith is trying to signal something to certain people? not sure you're on the ball here


I don't know whether I'm on a ball or not.  I'm just telling you how I'm seeing it. Which is that the moniker is what I'd expect to find on some alt-right board, not here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> I don't know whether I'm on a ball or not.  I'm just telling you how I'm seeing it. Which is that the moniker is what I'd expect to find on some alt-right board, not here.


no no, tell me more about this dog whistle from angela smith, who was she signalling to?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Dunno if it got a mention already by the way but Paisley Jr threw out the 'Never, Never' line - got less of a reaction than he probably expected.





taking the name of Bushmills in vein


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> taking the name of Bushmills in vein


at least he didn't bring a hundred pipers with him


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> I don't know whether I'm on a ball or not.  I'm just telling you how I'm seeing it. Which is that the moniker is what I'd expect to find on some alt-right board, not here.


The irony was a woman left Labour because she said they were racist, then in her one day in the spotlight said something racist. A very weird racist thing, too. It’s not a term I’ve ever heard before.

At that point the party-in-waiting had no name. Even TIG hadn’t caught on. So of course Lunatic Tinge did. Later shortened to Tinge. It has nothing to do with Chukka. It’s to do with an inept moron giving away something she didn’t intend to.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

I think newbie has a point tbf: if a nickname for a political party has to be explained with reference to a minor political slip up that most people aren't really aware of to make it seem not-racist, it's not really a very good nickname.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> A very weird racist thing, too. It’s not a term I’ve ever heard before.


I think she was trying to paraphrase something Ash Sarkar had said earlier in the conversation.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> it seems to be fairly widespread elsewhere tbf. I don't think it was a dogwhistle so much as a racist slip of the tongue though fwiw.


fair enough. Thankyou again, I respect your position on this.

A racist slip of the tongue can be used against her over and over again as she deserves it.  

To me it's not big and it's not clever to use it here against a bunch of people with a mixed race man as one of their most prominent speakers.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think newbie has a point tbf: if a nickname for a political party has to be explained with reference to a minor political slip up that most people aren't really aware of to make it seem not-racist, it's not really a very good nickname.


If indeed people aren’t aware of it, then that’s true. Until now I’ve not been involved in a conversation about them and had to explain it. But that’s probably because I’d only discuss them with other anoraks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think newbie has a point tbf: if a nickname for a political party has to be explained with reference to a minor political slip up that most people aren't really aware of to make it seem not-racist, it's not really a very good nickname.


quite a few people noticed it at the time tbh Internet turns a 'funny tinge' as people mock Independent group | Metro News


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It has nothing to do with Chukka.


so you say despite that being very obviously not the case, except to clever-clever sophisticates.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

tbh I hadn't even made the connection with Umuna. It was simply a way of expressing how hopeless they are by using something one of them said right at their inception. And apt because at least half of them left the Labour party due to its, um, racism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> To me it's not big and it's not clever to use it here against a bunch of people with a mixed race man as one of their most prominent speakers.


quite a step back from your initial claim chuka fronts the tiggers


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> so you say despite that being very obviously not the case, except to clever-clever sophisticates.


That’s not correct. It’s to do with Smith.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> quite a step back from your initial claim chuka fronts the tiggers


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

Anyhow will the Euro MP elections be taking place in the uk?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> View attachment 166395



What's your point here? Obviously if you put the bloke's name in the search field you'll get pictures of him.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> If indeed people aren’t aware of it, then that’s true. Until now I’ve not been involved in a conversation about them and had to explain it. But that’s probably because I’d only discuss them with other anoraks.


The conversation we're currently having does suggest we shouldn't assume everyone in a discussion has the same kind of anorak on. I think both _tinge_ and _cuck, _taken out of context - as they will be by most people - have a significant chance of being misunderstood. There's little benefit to their continued use so why bother?


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s not correct. It’s to do with Smith.


in your mind perhaps. That is not how it reads to me.

It's a question of the messages you send with the language you choose to use.  Not just to your insider peer group but to the rest of us.


----------



## gosub (Apr 2, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Anyhow will the Euro MP elections be taking place in the uk?



Electoral Commission were told yesterday to begin to make preparations....


then last night happened


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> What's your point here? Obviously if you put the bloke's name in the search field you'll get pictures of him.


did you miss that his description is 'principle speaker'  I know it's futile but I'm just trying to stop picky yapping.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> View attachment 166395


yes. that is a search for tig AND chuka AND principal AND speaker. it is not a search which will only return results for chuka as the principal tig speaker. in the first picture he may be about to introduce angela smith as the principal speaker.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> did you miss that his description is 'principle speaker'  I know it's futile but I'm just trying to stop picky yapping.


a minute ago you said something about principal speaker. why the change?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

gosub said:


> Electoral Commission were told yesterday to begin to make preparations....
> 
> 
> then last night happened



Ha! I was unaware that preparations had been regarded as being initiated.
Cheers.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> The conversation we're currently having does suggest we shouldn't assume everyone in a discussion has the same kind of anorak on. I think both _tinge_ and _cuck, _taken out of context - as they will be by most people - have a significant chance of being misunderstood. There's little benefit to their continued use so why bother?


It’s not something I’ve any interest in defending. I’ve not often got a need to call them anything, to be honest.

However, I do think it’s a stretch to say “most people” would think CUK meant anything except sounding a bit like “cock”.  I’d never heard of “cuck” before the other day. I doubt the average person in the street has.

However, that’s fine. I’ll call them whatever people on this thread decide. Because frankly that’s the only place I’m likely to discuss them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> did you miss that his description is 'principle speaker'  I know it's futile but I'm just trying to stop picky yapping.


if you want to end this then you could simply answer this question 





Pickman's model said:


> no no, tell me more about this dog whistle from angela smith, who was she signalling to?


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

tiresome nonsense.


Pickman's model said:


> no no, tell me more about this dog whistle from angela smith, who was she signalling to?


anyone who responds to that sort of language.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

So all the cabinet, no civil servants are currently sat around ‘The Death Star of British politics’ (Theresa May according to Matthew Parris)
I cannot wait for their next instalment of uselessness.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> anyone who responds to that sort of language.


Nah. She wasn't dogwhistling at all. If anything she was attempting (and failing with amusing hopelessness) to do the opposite.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> tiresome nonsense.
> 
> anyone who responds to that sort of language.


so you're saying she deliberately sent out a signal. you don't have a notion what you're wittering about. you've been given a link to the original thread where this name was coined, you've been told about how the tinge comment was made, and still you carry on saying that angela smith was deliberately sending out a dog whistle. perhaps now's the time to go back and get yourself up to speed on the tiggers before you say something else which can't be substantiated.


----------



## Santino (Apr 2, 2019)

Jesus Christ.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Santino said:


> Jesus Christ.


you're unlikely to make a better post than that on this thread


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 2, 2019)

Outside of us political anoraks, the word "Tinge" to describe the upchucks would have no meaning. If the googled it to find out why its been attached to them - they'd find that one of their number coined the phrase.
Im struggling to see how anyone would associate it with the fact that one of their (insignificant)  number has nigerian heritage rather then associate it Angela Smith's clumsy racism.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Nah. She wasn't dogwhistling at all. If anything she was attempting (and failing with amusing hopelessness) to do the opposite.


I'll take your word for it. I use words poorly, she uses them professionally, yet it's not language I could conceive of using in a context including someone of mixed race. If her measured, politician, words not intentional just sloppy then sobeit.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> Outside of us political anoraks, the word "Tinge" to describe the upchucks would have no meaning. If the googled it to find out why its been attached to them - they'd find that one of their number coined the phrase.
> Im struggling to see how anyone would associate it with the fact that one of their (insignificant)  number has nigerian heritage rather then associate it Angela Smith's clumsy racism.


And yet someone has, on this actual thread.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> I'll take your word for it. I use words poorly, she uses them professionally, yet it's not language I could conceive of using in a context including someone of mixed race. If her measured, politician, words not intentional just sloppy then sobeit.


The whole thing is barely worth discussing. But please at least go back to the link to the section of the thread where the faux pas was discussed. You’ll see the clip there and everything.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> Outside of us political anoraks, the word "Tinge" to describe the upchucks would have no meaning. If the googled it to find out why its been attached to them - they'd find that one of their number coined the phrase.
> Im struggling to see how anyone would associate it with the fact that one of their (insignificant)  number has nigerian heritage rather then associate it Angela Smith's clumsy racism.


why would I google it rather than ask the people using it? I'm not finding what I'm being told particularly convincing.  The detail of who said what, when and where, and what was in their mind is of minor background relevance, I suppose, but only minor.  It's still a term that carries clear racial connotations in the circumstances, and i can't see any political or social reason for using it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> why would I google it rather than ask the people using it? I'm not finding what I'm being told particularly convincing.  The detail of who said what, when and where, and what was in their mind is of minor background relevance, I suppose, but only minor.  It's still a term that carries clear racial connotations in the circumstances, and i can't see any political or social reason for using it.


The political reason is to take the piss out of them for being totally useless, right from day 1, failing hopelessly on their own haughty, rather disputed terms. The racial connotation is Smith's. tbh I have never before or since heard anyone use the word 'tinge' wrt race, funny or otherwise - yes, she really did say 'funny tinge'. As far as I can tell, it is Smith's very own coinage.

As for your first bit, if you're not finding what you're being told here particularly convincing, that's why you ought to google.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The whole thing is barely worth discussing. But please at least go back to the link to the section of the thread where the faux pas was discussed. You’ll see the clip there and everything.


That's a matter of opinion.  Telling me that I shouldn't wish to discuss what I see as a racially loaded term doesn't really wash.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> i can't see any political or social reason for using it.


 
to highlight that the CHUK are
a. closet racists. 
b.fuckwits


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 2, 2019)

next - 

Why are people using the racially loaded term "the grand wizzards" to describe the Mogglodytes?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> That's a matter of opinion.  Telling me that I shouldn't wish to discuss what I see as a racially loaded term doesn't really wash.


yeh it's a matter of opinion that you should acquaint yourself with a) how the tinge comment came about and b) what people said about it here. you don't seem to share that opinion.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The political reason is to take the piss out of them for being totally useless, right from day 1, failing hopelessly on their own haughty, rather disputed terms. The racial connotation is Smith's. tbh I have never before or since heard anyone use the word 'tinge' wrt race, funny or otherwise - yes, she really did say 'funny tinge'. As far as I can tell, it is Smith's very own coinage.


and she's now fair game to have it used against her at any opportunity.  Umunna, for all his dreadful politics, is not.


> As for your first bit, if you're not finding what you're being told here particularly convincing, that's why you ought to google.


perhaps.  Or perhaps the term simply should not become part of conversation (except about Smith) and then there's no need for any justifications at all.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> to highlight that the CHUK are
> a. closet racists.
> b.fuckwits


it doesn't convey either of those things.


----------



## ozu (Apr 2, 2019)

Really have no fucking clue what the next move will be. Don't know what she will tweak this time so Bercow lets her bring the vote back. Attaching it to second ref, or GE if it fails? Not so many more options for her outside of revoking, on Friday I got the impression she won't allow no deal, she didn't even use her old threat anymore after mv3 failed. 

The change.org lot can fuck off as well.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> it doesn't convey either of those things.



on their very first day of existing, on national tv, their main spokesperson coined a brand new racist term and then had to frantically back peddle. ergo  -closet racists and fuckwits.


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> However, I do think it’s a stretch to say “most people” would think CUK meant anything except sounding a bit like “cock”.  I’d never heard of “cuck” before the other day. I doubt the average person in the street has.



That's partly the point i think, it's not something that needs any more attention that it already has... Even if it's just some randoms googling after hearing someone say it. It's the risk of a kind of steady trickle of far right language into every day speech.


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> on their very first day of existing, on national tv, their main spokesperson coined a brand new racist term and then had to frantically back peddle. ergo  -closet racists and fuckwits.



I think I'd normally be comfortable with tinge, it's just throwing her racism back at her (as for the grand wizards of the tories), it's just the Chukka aspect that makes it... uncomfortable.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> on their very first day of existing, on national tv, their main spokesperson coined a brand new racist term and then had to frantically back peddle. ergo  -closet racists and fuckwits.


sorry but repeating that doesn't change the word, its obvious connotations or its unacceptability.  I don't suppose anyone here actually want to make a racial point but that is the way it comes across.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 2, 2019)

If Chuka chooses to consort with racists then he can take the slagging.


----------



## chilango (Apr 2, 2019)

Anybody watched Kuenssberg's documentary?

It's an interesting watch, partly as a fly on the wall view of life inside the bubble.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

TopCat said:


> If Chuka chooses to consort with racists then he can take the slagging.


The potential misunderstanding here isn't that you're calling them racists though, it's that the casual reader might think _you're_ being racist.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> next -
> 
> Why are people using the racially loaded term "the grand wizzards" to describe the Mogglodytes?


Roy Wood's lawyers have already been in touch


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> However, that’s fine. I’ll call them whatever people on this thread decide. Because frankly that’s the only place I’m likely to discuss them.



Chuka Umunna's Nonaligned Troupe?


----------



## gosub (Apr 2, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> So all the cabinet, no civil servants are currently sat around ‘The Death Star of British politics’ (Theresa May according to Matthew Parris)
> I cannot wait for their next instalment of uselessness.


I'm secretly hoping somebody gets thrown through the window 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

Cid said:


> I think I'd normally be comfortable with tinge, it's just throwing her racism back at her (as for the grand wizards of the tories), it's just the Chukka aspect that makes it... uncomfortable.


no. Again, I'm sorry to disagree but it's not throwing anything at her at all.  It's throwing around a term that is clearly associated with a group fronted by a mixed race man.  And it's not intended in any sort of complimentary fashion.  

C'mon.  If it was racist when she used it how is it somehow different when used by others.  Please don't tell me about reclaiming N words and that. This is a new coinage that could become the description of choice about that group.  How is using it a good thing?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 2, 2019)

that Joe bloke needs to do a "downfall bunker" parody with Mays head superimposed on hitlers.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> sorry but repeating that doesn't change the word, its obvious connotations or its unacceptability.  I don't suppose anyone here actually want to make a racial point but that is the way it comes across.



i think what you're trying to say here is that you didn't pay close enough attention and therefore didn't get the joke, and that when you asked what it meant - because you didn't know, because you hadn't been paying attention - you felt a bit foolish. so instead of saying, 'oh, ok, got you', you got the hump about being made to look like you don't pay much attention, and are going down a rabbit hole where you want to make people feel uncomfortable about using the joke rather than focussing on you being a thin-skinned humourless twat who doesn't pay attention.

have i got that about right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

gosub said:


> I'm secretly hoping somebody gets thrown through the window
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk








a defenestration recently


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 2, 2019)

ozu said:


> The change.org lot can fuck off as well.



I think you mean Change UK, unless you have an objection to the well established petition website known as change.org, which are objecting to the Tiggers using their proposed new name, due to any confusion with their website.

ETA: Even one of the Tiggers referred to their new name as change.org, so you can see that change.org has a very valued point in objecting to the cunts' changing their name to Change.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> It's throwing around a term that is clearly associated with a group fronted by a mixed race man.


yeh there wouldn't be any point to using a term clearly not associated with the tiggers. and you've made noises about the tiggers being fronted by a mixed race man, but adduced fuck all evidence except a very equivocal google search.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 2, 2019)

I


Pickman's model said:


> a defenestration recently



Opening the window first. fucking liberals.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

kebabking said:


> i think what you're trying to say here is that you didn't pay close enough attention and therefore didn't get the joke, and that when you asked what it meant - because you didn't know, because you hadn't been paying attention - you felt a bit foolish. so instead of saying, 'oh, ok, got you', you got the hump about being made to look like you don't pay much attention, and are going down a rabbit hole where you want to make people feel uncomfortable about using the joke rather than focussing on you being a thin-skinned humourless twat who doesn't pay attention.
> 
> have i got that about right?


no.
I'll accept I want to make people here uncomfortable about using a term that has racial overtones.

The rest of it, I couldn't care less if people here realise I haven't spent 24 hours a day reading here every word of of these threads, that I don't think racial 'jokes' are funny, or that you think I'm a twat.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 2, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I think you mean Change UK, unless you have an objection to the well established petition website known as change.org, which are objecting to the Tiggers using their proposed new name, due to any confusion with their website.



or, it could be a pun based on the incredulity of a political party that claims its closer to 'what real peaople want' having failed to notice that there's already a large, hugely popular organisation already in existance that has that name.

which is almost as funny as the _tinge_ thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> I
> 
> 
> Opening the window first. fucking liberals.


they'd got a quote from a glazier first and it was very dear to replace the windows.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> no.
> I'll accept I want to make people here uncomfortable about using a term that has racial overtones.
> 
> The rest of it, I couldn't care less if people here realise I haven't spent 24 hours a day reading here every word of of these threads, that I don't think racial 'jokes' are funny, or that you think I'm a twat.


no one wants you to spend so much time here, which is why they have helped you out with the whys and wherefores and the occasional link.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 2, 2019)

Cid said:


> I think I'd normally be comfortable with tinge, it's just throwing her racism back at her (as for the grand wizards of the tories), it's just the Chukka aspect that makes it... uncomfortable.


Whilst I go along with the "throwing her racism back at her", alongside highlighting the disingenuous nature of their formation, I must admit I have started to feel uncomfortable using it too, and not really because of Umunna. I'm just starting to get a bit wary of using language in an 'ironic' fashion, and even if most of us had never used "tinge" in that way before, the truth of the matter is that in this context it comes from a racist place, and I'm not sure how comfortable I am then repeating its use.

Possibly a bit too liberal, hand-wringy, but I've reverted to just calling them Tiggers, or the like.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Possibly a bit too liberal, hand-wringy, but I've reverted to just calling them Tiggers, or the like.


i've been using 'tigger' mostly myself but it feels wrong to give them a 'cuddly' name when they're such a bunch of arrant wankers.

tigger should remain the name of the tiger in winnie the pooh and not be associated with such nefandous scum as the cabal formerly known as the independent group


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

Anyway,  back to Brexit...

Barnier has just said No Deal is more likely after last night, and a strong justification would be needed for an extension beyond April 12


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> strong justification



Basically that's general election, isn't it?


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Basically that's general election, isn't it?


As I said above, I reckon a positive vote for something, *anything*, last night could have been enough, but it's hard to see much beyond a GE being acceptable now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> As I said above, I reckon a positive vote for something, *anything*, last night could have been enough, but it's hard to see much beyond a GE being acceptable now.


and that's been broadly ruled out because of the interest in the conservative party in not suffering a disastrous defeat


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 2, 2019)

Why the fucking SNP did not support a customs union escapes me. Had they supported it, that would have been successful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why the fucking SNP did not support a customs union escapes me. Had they supported it, that would have been successful.


because they don't really want to leave at all, i suppose


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 2, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why the fucking SNP did not support a customs union escapes me. Had they supported it, that would have been successful.



Because they are twats?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 2, 2019)

barnier is shroud waving about no deal to  try scare parliament into resolving the situation.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> As I said above, I reckon a positive vote for something, *anything*, last night could have been enough, but it's hard to see much beyond a GE being acceptable now.



Mm, I agree, but I do not think there will be one. I can totally see may landing everyone in the shit as a final "fuck you all, you cunts" and letting the deadline pass. 

She seems quite vindictive, from her record in the home office.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> barnier is shroud waving about no deal to  try scare parliament into resolving the situation.


Possibly, but TBH, parliament had a great chance last night to take a significant step towards resolving the situation and...


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 2, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Because they are twats?



Well, that's a given, but as they want as close ties to the EU as possible, why not support a customs union. Fucking wankers.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> because they don't really want to leave at all, i suppose


Also, a No Deal exit would increase the chance of a successful Indy Ref 2, I guess


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Well, that's a given, but as they want as close ties to the EU as possible, why not support a customs union. Fucking wankers.


I think it interferes with their long-term strategic goal of independence


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> and that's been broadly ruled out because of the interest in the conservative party in not suffering a disastrous defeat



Were Labour all singing from the same hymn sheet, I would agree. I don't think a GE would solve anything at the moment.


----------



## Poi E (Apr 2, 2019)

5 lib dems voted against it. Surely they deserve your ire more, Sas?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think it interferes with their long-term strategic goal of independence



That is dead. Every poll at the moment shows no appetite for a second referendum, and they will be gone after the 2021 elections anyway.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think it interferes with their long-term strategic goal of independence


Indeed. The DUP support brexit, but in reality revoke is the best thing for their long-term goal of NOOOO!, while the SNP oppose brexit, but in reality a hard brexit is the best thing for their long-term goal of IndyRef2. Ah brexit.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they'd got a quote from a glazier first and it was very dear to replace the windows.



Not surprised, from the illustration it looks like it may well be a listed building!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 2, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Well, that's a given, but as they want as close ties to the EU as possible, why not support a customs union. Fucking wankers.



I think Scottish voters have a great sense of humour.

Vote to stay part of the UK, then in the next GE elect 56 SNP MPs. Vote to stay in the EU, then in the next GE elect only 35 SNP MPs, bloody funny.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Not surprised, from the illustration it looks like it may well be a listed building!


it's the hradcin in prague i believe


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> a defenestration recently



OT.  I still think this would make a brilliant jigsaw puzzle! Ravensburger being a possible provider!


----------



## ska invita (Apr 2, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Well, that's a given, but as they want as close ties to the EU as possible, why not support a customs union. Fucking wankers.


The SNP want freedom of movement to remain - Customs Union does not protect that, only Common Market option does that.
They actively encourage people to move to Scotland from other countries.​


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's the hradcin in prague i believe



If historical accuracy is being followed.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

ska invita said:


> The SNP want freedom of movement to remain - Customs Union does not protect that, only Common Market option does that.
> They actively encourage people to move to Scotland from other countries.​


Did they vote for CM2?


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

I’m erring toward long extension I think... the prospect is there (contingent on a major shakeup), which kind of means no reason to back mv3. Even with this possibility of a confirmatory referendum (ha!).


----------



## ska invita (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> Did they vote for CM2?


no idea


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> Did they vote for CM2?


Yes. They voted for everything except customs union.

It's consistent enough of them. TIG voted against both CU and CM2. They're going the purist route, and held the balance in both those votes.

DUP (lol) voted against all four choices _and_ May's deal last Friday.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes. They voted for everything except customs union.


makes sense


also by extension Common Market is the only option that stops Settled Status process


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

ska invita said:


> makes sense
> 
> 
> also by extension Common Market is the only option that stops Settled Status process


Yep that's my understanding. 

Voting against that makes me wonder what exactly the tig/tinge think they stand for. If they had gone for that option (and they would have just tipped it over the line), they could still subsequently have pushed for a referendum once an extension was in place. They have shades of the DUP about them tbh. SNP at least showed a degree of pragmatism.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

newbie said:


> That's a matter of opinion.  Telling me that I shouldn't wish to discuss what I see as a racially loaded term doesn't really wash.


You’re getting the wrong end of several sticks, and we’re at crosses purposes all together. 

We can call the new grouping anything the thread decides. They’re not worth my time or effort.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

Cid said:


> That's partly the point i think, it's not something that needs any more attention that it already has... Even if it's just some randoms googling after hearing someone say it. It's the risk of a kind of steady trickle of far right language into every day speech.


Whatever.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep that's my understanding.
> 
> Voting against that makes me wonder what exactly the tig/tinge think they stand for. If they had gone for that option (and they would have just tipped it over the line), they could still subsequently have pushed for a referendum once an extension was in place. They have shades of the DUP about them tbh. SNP at least showed a degree of pragmatism.


Even if CM2 had passed Im not convinced that the process that would lead to it being implemented would be much different from where we are today. CM2 goes against Mays lines and msot Tory MP wishes - I expect it would've led to a general election anyway
?
who knows


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Even if CM2 had passed Im not convinced that the process that would lead to it being implemented would be much different from where we are today. CM2 goes against Mays lines and msot Tory MP wishes - I expect it would've led to a general election anyway
> ?
> who knows


I think it would have made May bringing in meaningless vote 4 much harder/impossible. I'm not totally sure CM2 really does go against most Tory MP wishes. There's been an extraordinary upsurge of hard brexit lunacy in the Tory parliamentary party in recent weeks. It's like a virus. I can't believe they actually prefer crash out to soft brexit. Many of them actually, really want revoke. 

If May brings MV4, all I can hope is that the DUP continues to do what it does best. God help us, we need the _DUP_ to stand firm.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep that's my understanding.
> 
> Voting against that makes me wonder what exactly the tig/tinge think they stand for...



The Guardian.

they seem rather like the ardent brexiteers - they would prefer to lose everything and remain (ha! geddit!) the Keepers of The Sacred Torch of Truth than be involved in some grubby compromise where they get some of what they want and some of what they don't.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes. They voted for everything except customs union.
> 
> It's consistent enough of them. TIG voted against both CU and CM2. They're going the purist route, and held the balance in both those votes.
> 
> DUP (lol) voted against all four choices _and_ May's deal last Friday.


Thanks.


----------



## Ming (Apr 2, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Do fuck off


Joke, Pinto. Keep your hair on.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

kebabking said:


> The Guardian.
> 
> they seem rather like the ardent brexiteers - they would prefer to lose everything and remain (ha! geddit!) the Keepers of The Sacred Torch of Truth than be involved in some grubby compromise where they get some of what they want and some of what they don't.


Yes. I think they think they represent the 6 million who signed that petition. Well I signed that petition, but I would accept the compromise of CU2 to protect immigrants. Don't know how many others would too - possibly quite a few. Mind you, danny la rouge signed that petition.  Stupid petition.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes. I think they think they represent the 6 million who signed that petition. Well I signed that petition, but I would accept the compromise of CU2 to protect immigrants. Don't know how many others would too - possibly quite a few. Mind you, danny la rouge signed that petition.  Stupid petition.


danny la rouge will sign *any *petition, more than once if possible


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> danny la rouge will sign *any *petition, more than once if possible


he signed a petition about his local swimming pool 837 times out of the 842 signatures they received.

this was a physical petition tho


----------



## kabbes (Apr 2, 2019)

Ming said:


> Joke, Pinto. Keep your hair on.


No, fuck off.  Contributing to an atmosphere in which people are encouraged to feel shame of their bodies not conforming to your standards of beauty is not a “joke”.  It’s being a twat.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> he signed a petition about his local swimming pool 837 times out of the 842 signatures they received.
> 
> this was a physical petition tho


The way I heard it was there were two petitions and he signed the one supporting the swimming pool 419 times and the one opposing it 418 times.

But that's a subject for another thread...


----------



## Winot (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes. I think they think they represent the 6 million who signed that petition. Well I signed that petition, but I would accept the compromise of CU2 to protect immigrants. Don't know how many others would too - possibly quite a few.



Same for me.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think it would have made May bringing in meaningless vote 4 much harder/impossible. I'm not totally sure CM2 really does go against most Tory MP wishes. There's been an extraordinary upsurge of hard brexit lunacy in the Tory parliamentary party in recent weeks. It's like a virus. I can't believe they actually prefer crash out to soft brexit. Many of them actually, really want revoke.
> 
> If May brings MV4, all I can hope is that the DUP continues to do what it does best. God help us, we need the _DUP_ to stand firm.


With the Tories a lot if it is pure positioning for sure. But theres no way this Tory government could lead the implementation of CM2 at this point.
I think DUP wont budge


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> The way I heard it was there were two petitions and he signed the one supporting the swimming pool 419 times and the one opposing it 418 times.
> 
> But that's a subject for another thread...



it fits here. Yesterday Bercow said that anyone going into both the aye and noe lobbies would have their votes discounted.


----------



## Ming (Apr 2, 2019)

kabbes said:


> No, fuck off.  Contributing to an atmosphere in which people are encouraged to feel shame of their bodies not conforming to your standards of beauty is not a “joke”.  It’s being a twat.


Well the guy with the jock strap did appear to have a big cock though?


----------



## Argonia (Apr 2, 2019)

Is there another vote on Wednesday or something?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2019)

Ming said:


> Well the guy with the jock strap did appear to have a big cock though?


Give it a rest, eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Is there another vote on Wednesday or something?


there are votes every wednesday until theresa may gets her way


----------



## kebabking (Apr 2, 2019)

ska invita said:


> ...I think DUP wont budge



I think DUP would be very happy if it all got revoked - they get to do the whole 'Noooooooo!' betrayal stuff, brexit doesn't happen - which will please their constituants - and they get extra brownie (orangy?) points for standing up for the union.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> there are votes every wednesday until theresa may gets her way


By ancient prophesy it is foretold that when May puts her deal to the Commons the same number of times that there are Police Academy films, it will pass.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

kebabking said:


> I think DUP would be very happy if it all got revoked - they get to do the whole 'Noooooooo!' betrayal stuff, brexit doesn't happen - which will please their constituants - and they get extra brownie (orangy?) points for standing up for the union.


they won't get brownie points as they still remember who wrote under that name in an phoblacht/republican news


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Spoiler


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> As I said above, I reckon a positive vote for something, *anything*, last night could have been enough, but it's hard to see much beyond a GE being acceptable now.



I'm sure they'd take a referendum or a change in PM.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think it would have made May bringing in meaningless vote 4 much harder/impossible. I'm not totally sure CM2 really does go against most Tory MP wishes. There's been an extraordinary upsurge of hard brexit lunacy in the Tory parliamentary party in recent weeks. It's like a virus. I can't believe they actually prefer crash out to soft brexit. Many of them actually, really want revoke.
> 
> If May brings MV4, all I can hope is that the DUP continues to do what it does best. God help us, we need the _DUP_ to stand firm.



I don't think you need to worry too much about the DUP blinking to be fair. 

Do snakes blink?


----------



## Flavour (Apr 2, 2019)

As a matter of curiosity... when was the last time the DUP voted in favour of anything in the House of Commons? Must be months ago.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I'm sure they'd take a referendum or a change in PM.



they'd take a referendum if the legislastion could go through in 10 days or whatever.

they are however stuck with the problem of the European elections - they have some flexibility with timings up until the begining of July, which is when the new MEP's take their seats, but the EU is flapping about a series of short extentions to get this or that done - the MEP's take their seats in early July, and the (then) formerly UK seats will have been dished out to other states. the EU isn't particularly worried about an extension that takes up up into June _per se, _but worries that it would then roll over into another extension. to be strictly fair, i see their point. the current extension hasn't really produced anything, so more extensions are just kicking the can down the road rather than achieving much.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

kebabking said:


> they'd take a referendum if the legislastion could go through in 10 days or whatever.
> 
> they are however stuck with the problem of the European elections - they have some flexibility with timings up until the begining of July, which is when the new MEP's take their seats, but the EU is flapping about a series of short extentions to get this or that done - the MEP's take their seats in early July, and the (then) formerly UK seats will have been dished out to other states. the EU isn't particularly worried about an extension that takes up up into June _per se, _but worries that it would then roll over into another extension. to be strictly fair, i see their point. the current extension hasn't really produced anything, so more extensions are just kicking the can down the road rather than achieving much.


i thought at first this road was whitehall but the can's gone so far down the road i can only conclude it's yonge street, which has a length of 1178 miles from lake shore in toronto to the rainy river


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Flavour said:


> As a matter of curiosity... when was the last time the DUP voted in favour of anything in the House of Commons? Must be months ago.


they've fairly consistently voted for a bigger mess for theresa may


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I'm sure they'd take a referendum or a change in PM.


Agreed, but neither of those seem terribly likely before April 12.

I reckon Parliament had their best chance yesterday to find an alternative which might actually get a majority give the EU enough of a reason for an extension, and they blew it.

Unless they get their act together on Wednesday, they're back being powerless onlookers as much as the rest us.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> Agreed, but neither of those seem terribly likely before April 12.
> 
> I reckon Parliament had their best chance yesterday to find an alternative which might actually get a majority give the EU enough of a reason for an extension, and they blew it.
> 
> Unless they get their act together on Wednesday, they're back being powerless onlookers as much as the rest us.


I am a little surprised by how few Tories voted for CM2. It is surely a preferred option of many of their business pals, not to mention city finance types. Do they still hope to get May's deal through? Or is this purely about avoiding a GE at all costs?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

Just listening to Beth Rigby Sky news saying first indication from the five hour cabinet marathon is May is going to push for MV4.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I am a little surprised by how few Tories voted for CM2. It is surely a preferred option of many of their business pals, not to mention city finance types. Do they still hope to get May's deal through? Or is this purely about avoiding a GE at all costs?


It's about attempting to juggle a number of different and potentially irreconcilable interests, including their own personal future and the future of their party. 

For many/most, both those are way more important than the trivial matter of what type of Brexit we end up with...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 2, 2019)

MPs push to prevent no-deal Brexit in law



> A cross-party group of MPs has put forward a bill to prevent a no-deal Brexit in 10 days' time.
> 
> If passed into law, the bill would require the PM to ask for an extension of Article 50 - which mandates the UK's exit date from the EU - beyond the current 12 April deadline.
> 
> Labour MP Yvette Cooper presented the bill for debate on Wednesday.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Just listening to Beth Rigby Sky news saying first indication from the five hour cabinet marathon is May is going to push for MV4.


theresa may is general sir hogmanay melchett


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Wilf said:


> By ancient prophesy it is foretold that when May puts her deal to the Commons the same number of times that there are Police Academy films, it will pass.


if you look in isiah you find it mentioned that there shall be as many meaningful votes as there are grains of sand in the desert


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 2, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> MPs push to prevent no-deal Brexit in law



I'm a bit puzzled by this. The EU have - fairly reasonably - said there is only a longer extension available if there is a clear Plan B about how to agree on a different sort of Brexit. So it seems to me that requiring May to go to the EU to beg for an extension is likely to result in a 'No' from the EU, unless it comes along with a Plan B, which May seems congenitally unable to formulate. Unless this legislation also lays out a Plan B and mandates how it will work, then it seems to me it will fail in its aim. I would like to think our MPs are bright enough to have spotted this, but I no longer have any confidence in their brains functioning correctly.


----------



## Santino (Apr 2, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm a bit puzzled by this. The EU have - fairly reasonably - said there is only a longer extension available if there is a clear Plan B about how to agree on a different sort of Brexit. So it seems to me that requiring May to go to the EU to beg for an extension is likely to result in a 'No' from the EU, unless it comes along with a Plan B, which May seems congenitally unable to formulate. Unless this legislation also lays out a Plan B and mandates how it will work, then it seems to me it will fail in its aim. I would like to think our MPs are bright enough to have spotted this, but I no longer have any confidence in their brains functioning correctly.


It's a backdoor way to revoke Article 50, I would have thought.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

Santino said:


> It's a backdoor way to revoke Article 50, I would have thought.


As far as I can see, it only requires the PM to ask for an extension, it says nothing about what happens if the request is refused...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 2, 2019)

It's clutching at straws.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> As far as I can see, it only requires the PM to ask for an extension, it says nothing about what happens if the request is refused...



The inference I got from Yvette Cooper’s interview is they fear May won’t consider asking for an extension.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm a bit puzzled by this. The EU have - fairly reasonably - said there is only a longer extension available if there is a clear Plan B about how to agree on a different sort of Brexit. So it seems to me that requiring May to go to the EU to beg for an extension is likely to result in a 'No' from the EU, unless it comes along with a Plan B, which May seems congenitally unable to formulate. Unless this legislation also lays out a Plan B and mandates how it will work, then it seems to me it will fail in its aim. I would like to think our MPs are bright enough to have spotted this, but I no longer have any confidence in their brains functioning correctly.


i never had any confidence in their brains functioning properly agiven some of the godawful laws the vermin have passed but it's perfectly possible they will have seen this but persuaded themselves that when push comes to shove they'll be able to deal with it


----------



## xenon (Apr 2, 2019)

Which option had the most votes last night. I thought May was thinking about putting that up against her WA. 

Just do that and let's be done with this FFS. 

E2A unless No Deal actually was the most popular, I CBA checking. But No Deal should be dead and buried.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2019)

So, then, Yvette Cooper is our next line of defence against the gaping hellmouth, farage's army, virgin olive oil shortages etc. If Yvette Cooper is the answer, fuck knows what the question was.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

Wilf said:


> If Yvette Cooper is the answer, fuck knows what the question was.


Is it: “the executions have to start somewhere; do you have a suggestion?”


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 2, 2019)

xenon said:


> Which option had the most votes last night. I thought May was thinking about putting that up against her WA.
> 
> Just do that and let's be done with this FFS.
> 
> E2A unless No Deal actually was the most popular, I CBA checking. But No Deal should be dead and buried.



Customs union failed by a handful. If the SNP muppets had voted for it, it would have got across the line.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2019)

xenon said:


> Which option had the most votes last night. I thought May was thinking about putting that up against her WA.
> 
> Just do that and let's be done with this FFS.
> 
> .


They should probably run it like the Father Ted episode where they had write down the reasons why they should get the parachute:


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

Nick Boles: Ex-Tory MP hits out at 'cowardly' cabinet


> Former Conservative MP Nick Boles has accused the cabinet of being "cowardly and selfish" for failing to challenge Theresa May's approach to Brexit. Mr Boles, who quit the parliamentary party on Monday, said the PM had "misunderstood and mismanaged" the whole process of leaving the EU. And he told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg no-one in the cabinet "had earned the right" to succeed her. The Tory Party "did not really exist any more", he also suggested.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> Nick Boles: Ex-Tory MP hits out at 'cowardly' cabinet





> The Tory Party "did not really exist any more", he also suggested.



Guy's lost it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Guy's lost it.


The rest of what he said is completely correct, though.

“Former Conservative MP Nick Boles has accused the cabinet of being "cowardly and selfish" for failing to challenge Theresa May's approach to Brexit. 

Mr Boles, who quit the parliamentary party on Monday, said the PM had "misunderstood and mismanaged" the whole process of leaving the EU. 

And he told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg no-one in the cabinet "had earned the right" to succeed her.”


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 2, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm a bit puzzled by this. The EU have - fairly reasonably - said there is only a longer extension available if there is a clear Plan B about how to agree on a different sort of Brexit. So it seems to me that requiring May to go to the EU to beg for an extension is likely to result in a 'No' from the EU, unless it comes along with a Plan B, which May seems congenitally unable to formulate. Unless this legislation also lays out a Plan B and mandates how it will work, then it seems to me it will fail in its aim. I would like to think our MPs are bright enough to have spotted this, but I no longer have any confidence in their brains functioning correctly.



No deal is not in the EUs interests, I think they may huff and puff, but an extension may be forthcoming.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Guy's lost it.


That bit *is* a little OTT but, as danny says, the rest is pretty much spot on.

I haven't given up hope of a proper Tory split just yet...


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The rest of what he said is completely correct, though.
> 
> “Former Conservative MP Nick Boles has accused the cabinet of being "cowardly and selfish" for failing to challenge Theresa May's approach to Brexit.
> 
> ...


Think a tad of the messiah complex tbh...thought he'd solved it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Think a tad of the messiah complex tbh...thought he'd solved it.


Oh, that too. But there’s no solution.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Think a tad of the messiah complex tbh...thought he'd solved it.









him, not you, obvs...


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

Wasn’t/Isn’t Boles best buds with Cameron and Osborn?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Wasn’t/Isn’t Boles best buds with Cameron and Osborn?


Yeah, I think he did a bit of work for them. Temping Boles.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 2, 2019)

I’m beginning to think they aren’t even competent enough to manage to get a no deal Brexit.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

I take it he's sitting as an independent Independent now; rather than one of the non-independent Independent Group or ChanceUK or whateverthefuck they call themselves?


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I take it he's sitting as an independent Independent now; rather than one of the non-independent Independent Group or ChanceUK or whateverthefuck they call themselves?


Do we have consensus on what to call them yet?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Do we have consensus on what to call them yet?


Aside from the obvious?


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I take it he's sitting as an independent Independent now; rather than one of the non-independent Independent Group or ChanceUK or whateverthefuck they call themselves?


The new updated article mentions he was deselected earlier this month. I hadn’t realised that. It may be relevant.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Aside from the obvious?


Yeah, but that wouldn’t be specific.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The new updated article mentions he was deselected earlier this month. I hadn’t realised that. It may be relevant.


Nah, he was only deselected by his local association...he was still at liberty to take the tory whip in Parliament...that's how they roll.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yeah, but that wouldn’t be specific.


Change
Uk
National
Treasure
S


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Do we have consensus on what to call them yet?


Don't start that again 

Interesting stuff from Macron and Varadkar


> President Macron told reporters that the EU "cannot be hostage to the political crisis in the UK", and the government must come forward with "credible" reasons for an extension. He said these could include an election, second referendum, or alternative proposals for the future relationship, such as a customs union.





> Mr Varadkar said the UK was "consumed by Brexit", but the EU should not be. He said the EU "needs to be open" about any proposals the UK brings, including a longer extension, and they will do what they can to "assist". But he added: "We gave the UK some time, some space and some opportunity to come up with a way forward... [but] as things stand, they will leave on 12 April without a deal."


----------



## ozu (Apr 2, 2019)

Statement from May coming soon...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The new updated article mentions he was deselected earlier this month. I hadn’t realised that. It may be relevant.


Resigned from local association over differences - told he had betrayed them. But he's voted for may's deal every time. It is quite bonkers the brexit fury that has been unleashed among Tories.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

ozu said:


> Statement from May coming soon...


“We need to make a decision. It’s hard to make decisions. But that is our job. And I intend to do everything I can to make sure the job is done”.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

ozu said:


> Statement from May coming soon...


What's that, Captain Smith, you think we should re-arrange these deckchairs again...?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

ozu said:


> Statement from May coming soon...


"Let me be clear.."?


----------



## agricola (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> What's that, Captain Smith, you think we should re-arrange these deckchairs again...?



Thats April 15th; if she is going for no deal on April 12th I hope she just comes out and says "Poyekhali!".


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2019)

Maybe she say she's owed lots of holidays and is going to fuck off Disneyworld for a month. Rees Mogg is off on his hols as well, though he's going on one of those 1830s things.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 2, 2019)

ozu said:


> Statement from May coming soon...


"soon"


----------



## Balbi (Apr 2, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Maybe she say she's owed lots of holidays and is going to fuck off Disneyworld for a month. Rees Mogg is off on his hols as well, though he's going on one of those 1830s things.



That's about a century further forward in time than where he usually is.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 2, 2019)

Let me be clear... nothing has changed
.. deliver the brexit people voted for... somebody shoot me now... etc, etc


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2019)

A lectern, so general election or resignation?


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

Oh my god, she's doing it again.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

Sit-down with Corbyn. So something. Sort of.


----------



## ozu (Apr 2, 2019)

Think last time she announced the election it was from a plain lectern without the government crest, this will be fuck all probably. Probably more talk of her deal and delivering on referendum result.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

Props to Corbz...


----------



## Balbi (Apr 2, 2019)

Oh she's gonna try and pin it on Corbz


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

"Requires national unity"


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 2, 2019)

ozu said:


> Think last time she announced the election it was from a plain lectern without the government crest, this will be fuck all probably. Probably more talk of her deal and delivering on referendum result.


I do enjoy the lectern semiotics


----------



## agricola (Apr 2, 2019)

Good news for Boles that.


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Sit-down with Corbyn. So something. Sort of.



Yeah, I mean, because sitting down with the leader of the opposition in a hung parliament wasn't an option before.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

I don't really see what Corbyn gains from sitting down with her. But then he probably loses if he doesn't.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 2, 2019)

Especially if it's musical chairs.

Which, currently, I wouldn't say is out of the question.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 2, 2019)

lets see if she brings chuka to the sit down again


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I don't really see what Corbyn gains from sitting down with her. But then he probably loses if he doesn't.


Extension in, no-deal out and snuggling up with Corbz...this will go down well with the radicalised


----------



## Balbi (Apr 2, 2019)

This is where TIG gets more interesting because they've locked themselves out of this and will now get really spiteful.


----------



## agricola (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I don't really see what Corbyn gains from sitting down with her. But then he probably loses if he doesn't.



Quite a lot, potentially.  Propose a solution to this mess (whether thats Labour's own or one of the two ones from last night) and he gets to be seen as the one who solved this and prevented no-deal.  I am not sure he would be blamed that much for solving it either, except by people who would never vote for him.


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

I think May just wants MV4 in a run-off, but with the ability to say she tried meaningful talks beforehand.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

*UK needs further Brexit extension - May*


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

Oh, didn't she say it was contingent on the current WA too?


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 2, 2019)

Wow, looks like she might actually try for a cross-party deal and abandon the ERG. Which is what she should have done months ago obviously. But I thought she'd never get to it. Still, a lot of things could still go tits-up, and maybe it is all just a performance, but it is the first glimmer of sanity she's shown for a while.


----------



## agricola (Apr 2, 2019)

Cid said:


> Oh, didn't she say it was contingent on the current WA too?



As an aside, as it originally came out Kyle's proposal was to pass the current WA on the promise of a 2nd ref.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

She insists her Withdrawal Agreement will be part of the deal.

FFS.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> She insists her Withdrawal Agreement will be part of the deal.
> 
> FFS.


If she offers Corbyn Customs Union + 'workers rights', she's got it.
The ERG have finally lost.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> She insists her Withdrawal Agreement will be part of the deal.
> 
> FFS.


If that's really all she has then Corbyn should say he's busy at the allotment and to call when she's ready to talk seriously...


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> She insists her Withdrawal Agreement will be part of the deal.
> 
> FFS.


But maybe the backstop part of it can be rendered irrelevant by further political agreement on a customs union?


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

agricola said:


> As an aside, as it originally came out Kyle's proposal was to pass the current WA on the promise of a 2nd ref.



Wasn't it a confirmatory ref though?


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)




----------



## agricola (Apr 2, 2019)

Cid said:


> Wasn't it a confirmatory ref though?



Not really, it was Remain vs her deal IIRC.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> But maybe the backstop part of it can be rendered irrelevant by further political agreement on a customs union?


If you’ve thought of something sensible or even just internally coherent, it won’t be that.


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Wow, looks like she might actually try for a cross-party deal and abandon the ERG. Which is what she should have done months ago obviously. But I thought she'd never get to it. Still, a lot of things could still go tits-up, and maybe it is all just a performance, but it is the first glimmer of sanity she's shown for a while.



That's um... optimistic I think.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> If she offers Corbyn Customs Union + 'workers rights', she's got it.
> The ERG have finally lost.


That would split the Tories though surely.

I read it more as an PR exercise but an attempt to get her deal through as the least unpopular option.


> If she and Corbyn cannot agree a unified approach, May says, then a series of options for the future relationship would be put to the Commons in a series of votes. The prime minister adds that the government would abide by the decision of the house – but only if Labour did so too.


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

agricola said:


> Not really, it was Remain vs her deal IIRC.






			
				BBC said:
			
		

> *Motion E: Confirmatory public vote*
> *Proposers: Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson, Labour*
> 
> *Result: 280 votes for and 292 votes against*
> ...



e2a: removed link as it was to live page.


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> That would split the Tories though surely.



Has their ever been an option that doesn't split them?


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 2, 2019)

Cid said:


> Has their ever been an option that doesn't split them?


May's deal. Yes a lot of them aren't keen on it but the great majority can swallow it.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> That would split the Tories though surely.
> 
> I read it more as an PR exercise but an attempt to get her deal through as the least unpopular option.


That's what she's just done. 
Over to the swivel-eyed...have they got the balls to walk?


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> That would split the Tories though surely.


It would, and Corbyn must know that.

His job now is to make an argument, over May's head if necessary, for something which would command a majority in parliament, but which would split the Tories, and force May gently down that road.


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> May's deal. Yes a lot of them aren't keen on it but the great majority can swallow it.



Well... The ERG don't seem to have come round yet. Though fair enough, they have might come round enough to avoid an outright split.

I'm inclined to agree that this is just to get to MV4 runoff.


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

Imagine sitting in a fucking 7 hour meeting to come out with that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

She wants a compromise cross party agreement that is her withdrawal agreement. Has anything of substance changed?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> It would, and Corbyn must know that.
> 
> His job now is to make an argument, over May's head if necessary, for something which would command a majority in parliament, but which would split the Tories, and force May gently down that road.


Fucking hell rather him than me


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 2, 2019)

Cid said:


> Imagine sitting in a fucking 7 hour meeting to come out with that.


This is my response to much of day to day local/national gov work tbf


----------



## agricola (Apr 2, 2019)

Cid said:


> e2a: removed link as it was to live page.



thats what it was last night, but in its initial form it was her deal vs remain


----------



## maomao (Apr 2, 2019)

It almost seems reasonable except the bit about it having to include her withdrawal agreement. That just makes it looks like a desparate attempt to put some of the blame on Corbyn.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

maomao said:


> It almost seems reasonable except the bit about it having to include her withdrawal agreement. That just makes it looks like a desparate attempt to put some of the blame on Corbyn.


The brian clough approach to compromise. We sat down and talked it through and decided that I was right.


----------



## Cid (Apr 2, 2019)

maomao said:


> It almost seems reasonable except the bit about it having to include her withdrawal agreement. That just makes it looks like a desparate attempt to put some of the blame on Corbyn.



I think the reasonable element of it only comes in the context of utter intransigence up to this point.

And yeah, including the WA diminishes even that crumb.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

According to this, it might not be just about her deal



> In a statement from Downing Street, Mrs May said she wanted to agree a new plan with Mr Corbyn and put it to a vote in the Commons before 10 April - when the EU will hold an emergency summit on Brexit. If they do not agree a single way forward, she proposed putting a number of options to MPs "to determine which course to pursue".


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2019)

And round we go


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> According to this, it might not be just about her deal


The reply to all of this every time is “Oh for fuck sake”.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

If Corbyn agrees to support the withdrawal deal he's fucked and deserves to be. Should demand she goes.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 2, 2019)

It's reassuring to observe the corpse degrading, but the smell is starting to reek.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Should demand she goes.


what would be the point of that?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> If Corbyn agrees to support the withdrawal deal he's fucked and deserves to be. Should demand she goes.


I'd rather she stays. Last thing we need is a worse cunt rocking up and taking advantage of new guy bounce


----------



## AnandLeo (Apr 2, 2019)

I cannot understand why the proposal by a Tory MP for a Common Market 2 with free trade and customs arrangement failed to get the majority in spite of Labour party support. However, the motion for a Customs Union nearly won the majority vote, a good sign.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Apr 2, 2019)

Loving the LBC meltdown


----------



## Chester Copperpot (Apr 2, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> Loving the LBC meltdown



Dale in meltdown XD


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

S☼I said:


> I'd rather she stays. Last thing we need is a worse cunt rocking up and taking advantage of new guy bounce


Yeh the traditional new manager wins first game in charge bounce


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 2, 2019)

Chester Copperpot said:


> Dale in meltdown XD


“I’ve been seriously considering sending my medals back, that I earned fighting for my country”
“Don’t do that, don’t do that”


----------



## Smangus (Apr 2, 2019)

The reaction on conservative home is fantastic , talk to a marxist how dare she ! Choking on their bile .lol


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> what would be the point of that?



Sorry should demand she goes and calls an election. What else can he say? He can't agree to vote for her withdrawal agreement. 



S☼I said:


> I'd rather she stays. Last thing we need is a worse cunt rocking up and taking advantage of new guy bounce



That way madness lies. "We can't get rid of this horrible Tory PM in case we get a worse Tory PM". Tories out.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Resigned from local association over differences - told he had betrayed them. But he's voted for may's deal every time. It is quite bonkers the brexit fury that has been unleashed among Tories.



Labour are hardly singing from the same hymn sheet.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> That way madness lies. "We can't get rid of this horrible Tory PM in case we get a worse Tory PM". Tories out.


I mean it's more likely the Tories will be out if she (ahem) remains in charge.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 2, 2019)

Smangus said:


> The reaction on conservative home is fantastic , talk to a marxist how dare she ! Choking on their bile .lol


They've got Vince Cable on LBC now and he's calling Corbyn a Marxist non stop - "May meeting Marx".

I've not listened to LBC for years and it's brilliant, it's like Alan Partridge never happened.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 2, 2019)

S☼I said:


> I mean it's more likely the Tories will be out if she (ahem) remains in charge.



I think they are out whatever...


----------



## xenon (Apr 2, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They've got Vince Cable on LBC now and he's calling Corbyn a Marxist non stop - "May meeting Marx".
> 
> I've not listened to LBC for years and it's brilliant, it's like Alan Partridge never happened.



I like getting wound up By it. To an extent. Cable talking shite trying to clear yellow water.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

Smangus said:


> The reaction on conservative home is fantastic , talk to a marxist how dare she


I wish she would.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

S☼I said:


> I mean it's more likely the Tories will be out if she (ahem) remains in charge.



If she can cling on they all can.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 2, 2019)

Not "cultural Marxist" surely


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I wish she would.


Yeh but all that's on offer is jc


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh but all that's on offer is jc


Precisely.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Sorry should demand she goes and calls an election. What else can he say? He can't agree to vote for her withdrawal agreement.


Most of the compromises they've voted on last week and yesterday involved voting through the WA though, with the political declaration altered or a second ref attached etc - how would this be any different?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> Most of the compromises they've voted on last week and yesterday involved voting through the WA though, with the political declaration altered or a second ref attached etc - how would this be any different?



I might have missed something but I thought they were voting on alternatives to May's withdrawal agreement? Withdrawal agreement still needed obviously but not that one? 

Either way, it's madness to help her stay in power.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

you missed something, yeah.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I might have missed something but I thought they were voting on alternatives to May's withdrawal agreement? Withdrawal agreement still needed obviously but not that one?
> 
> Either way, it's madness to help her stay in power.


Yeah, what they voted on yesterday would have been alternatives to May's withdrawal agreement.

Corbyn needs to tell her that her deal is a dead duck, and that the two them need to work together to find some sort of plan that will actually command a majority so they can request an extension to negotiate the detail with the EU.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> Yeah, what they voted on yesterday would have been alternatives to May's withdrawal agreement.
> 
> Corbyn needs to tell her that her deal is a dead duck, and that the two them need to work together to find some sort of plan that will actually command a majority so they can request an extension to negotiate the detail with the EU.



Naaaaaaaah fam he needs to look reasonable while telling her to fuck off. No working together with Tories that's madness.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> you missed something, yeah.



Don't think I did.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> Yeah, what they voted on yesterday would have been alternatives to May's withdrawal agreement.
> 
> Corbyn needs to tell her that her deal is a dead duck, and that the two them need to work together to find some sort of plan that will actually command a majority so they can request an extension to negotiate the detail with the EU.


Her Withdrawal Agreement with the EU is not a dead duck, though. If she concedes enough to Labour, they'd whip it through. May's people obviously thought/hoped that at some point the Lab backbenchers would have folded and backed it, (I did as well tbf), but they've held just enough party discipline to push her into this position.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Don't think I did.


I thought yesterday was options that could be “tacked on” to the WA?


----------



## gosub (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I might have missed something but I thought they were voting on alternatives to May's withdrawal agreement? Withdrawal agreement still needed obviously but not that one?
> 
> Either way, it's madness to help her stay in power.


I disagree. She has more faults than good attributes. However she has accepted the referdum result and although hamfisted, attempted to square the circle..

What she outlined doing today is nt unreasonable but outside EU's acceptable ways forward, their response, reading between the lines is get rid of May and anything is possible.

So we, potentially burn through 2 Prime Ministers and the largest plebiscite in British history to end up back where we started.

She's toast and so probably are the tories. But that is for the longer term.  Now we stop rearranging deck chairs and tell the EU it's their turn to blink


----------



## Supine (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I might have missed something but I thought they were voting on alternatives to May's withdrawal agreement? Withdrawal agreement still needed obviously but not that one?
> 
> Either way, it's madness to help her stay in power.



No,and it's an important point. The withdrawal agreement is not being talked about for change with these vote options. 

It's the Future Agreement which can be modified to incorporate CU or whichever choice if one is ever agreed. The problem with this is its not a legal document like the withdrawal agreement. This means a future Brexiteer can basically rip it up and start again on how our future relationship will be formed over the next few years.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Her Withdrawal Agreement with the EU is not a dead duck, though. If she concedes enough to Labour, they'd whip it through. May's people obviously thought/hoped that at some point the Lab backbenchers would have folded and backed it, (I did as well tbf), but they've held just enough party discipline to push her into this position.


What I was suggesting was that Corbyn makes it clear that the changes they would need to make Labour whip it through would be big enough that it would no longer be the deal she agreed with the EU, and that there would need to be an extension so that renegotiation could take place.

But what changes do you think they might agree to which would still make it the same deal and make that unnecessary?


----------



## mwgdrwg (Apr 2, 2019)

Has Corbyn told her to fuck off yet?


----------



## belboid (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Don't think I did.


You really did.

The WA itself basically just keeps the UK in a CU until a new FTA is drawn up. The problem hasn't been that, but what comes after. Labour would basically be happy for it to stay like that forever. But that isn't written into the WA, so Labour haven't voted for it. There would need to be a new _political _statement agreeing that that will (in one way or another) permanently be the case before Labour could agree.


----------



## maomao (Apr 2, 2019)

Supine said:


> The problem with this is its not a legal document like the withdrawal agreement. This means a future Brexiteer can basically rip it up and start again on how our future relationship will be formed over the next few years.


Once deals are signed of on things like the single market and efta they'll be no easier to get out of than the eu. In fact post Brexit probably harder.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> What I was suggesting was that Corbyn makes it clear that the changes they would need to make Labour whip it through would be big enough that it would no longer be the deal she agreed with the EU, and that there would need to be an extension so that renegotiation could take place.
> 
> But what changes do you think they might agree to which would still make it the same deal and make that unnecessary?


WA (as is) + CU + "workers' rights" (whatever that means)....the CU obviating the need for any NI backstop.
Trouble for Corbyn (as Supine says) is convincing the party that the vermin are not just lying to get it through, with Gove (or some other shit) waiting in the wings to chuck it all overboard in near future.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 2, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> Has Corbyn told her to fuck off yet?


No he has said he’s “very happy” to meet May to discuss a compromise, according to the guardian.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Apr 2, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> No he has said he’s “very happy” to meet May to discuss a compromise, according to the guardian.



What an idiot.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> the two them need to work together to find some sort of plan that will actually command a majority so they can request an extension to negotiate the detail with the EU.



agreement between Corbyn and May should be impossible by default

No way is anything going to come of this meeting. Both of them are going through the motions



mwgdrwg said:


> Has Corbyn told her to fuck off yet?


not yet, he'll tell her to her face


----------



## belboid (Apr 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> CU + "workers' rights" (whatever that means)


I think workers rights are covered by the CU. Even if not, they'd be covered by simply agreeing to at least match those of EU countries.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 2, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> What an idiot.


Why, it'd be ridiculous for him to do anything else in his position.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 2, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> No he has said he’s “very happy” to meet May to discuss a compromise, according to the guardian.





mwgdrwg said:


> What an idiot.


He’d look like an idiot if he didn’t agree to meet her.


----------



## killer b (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Don't think I did.



Common Market 2.0 is below: the WA would be unchanged, only the political declaration altered - Labour whipped for this last night:

_That this House –

(1) directs Her Majesty’s Government to –

(i) renegotiate the framework for the future relationship laid before the House on Monday 11 March 2019 with the title ‘Political Declaration setting out the framework for the future relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom’ to provide that, on the conclusion of the Implementation Period and no later than 31 December 2020, the United Kingdom shall –

(a) accede to the European Free Trade Association (Efta) having negotiated a derogation from Article 56(3) of the Efta Agreement to allow UK participation in a comprehensive customs arrangement with the European Union,

(b) enter the Efta Pillar of the European Economic Area (EEA) and thereby render operational the United Kingdom’s continuing status as a party to the EEA Agreement and continuing participation in the Single Market,

(c) agree relevant protocols relating to frictionless agri-food trade across the UK/EU border,

(d) enter a comprehensive customs arrangement including a common external tariff, alignment with the Union Customs Code and an agreement on commercial policy, and which includes a UK say on future EU trade deals, at least until alternative arrangements that maintain frictionless trade with the European Union and no hard border on the island of Ireland have been agreed with the European Union,

(ii) negotiate with the EU a legally binding Joint Instrument that confirms that, in accordance with Article 2 of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland of the Withdrawal Agreement, the implementation of all the provisions of paragraph 1 (i) of this motion would cause the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland to be superseded in full;

(2) resolves to make support for the forthcoming European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill conditional upon the inclusion of provisions for a Political Declaration revised in accordance with the provisions of this motion to be the legally binding negotiating mandate for Her Majesty’s Government in the forthcoming negotiation of the future relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union.
_
This is Kyle/Wilson - no demands made at all about what's in the WA, only that whatever it is, is subject to a confirmatory referendum - they whipped for this too:

_That this House will not allow in this Parliament the implementation and ratification of any withdrawal agreement and any framework for the future relationship unless and until they have been approved by the people of the United Kingdom in a confirmatory public vote._

it's easy to find and check this stuff y'know.


----------



## CRI (Apr 2, 2019)




----------



## Supine (Apr 2, 2019)

maomao said:


> Once deals are signed of on things like the single market and efta they'll be no easier to get out of than the eu. In fact post Brexit probably harder.



Those things are harder to get out of. The future declaration, which can be modified easily, is just a template document. It sets out the negotiation path to achieve whatever the final agreement will be. It's worthless and I hope corbyn and others realise this.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 2, 2019)

#longgrass again ffs


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 2, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Why, it'd be ridiculous for him to do anything else in his position.


As Corbyn is nothing more than a would-be manager of capitalism, I'm inclined to agree.


----------



## gosub (Apr 2, 2019)

marty21 said:


> #longgrass again ffs


They"ve kicked so many cans into it, it's not really grass anymore


----------



## rubbershoes (Apr 2, 2019)

The Express headline is a corker




			
				Daily Express said:
			
		

> Brexit LIVE: Rees-Mogg and Johnson FURIOUS at May plan to work with 'known Marxist' Corbyn


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> I thought yesterday was options that could be “tacked on” to the





belboid said:


> You really did.
> 
> The WA itself basically just keeps the UK in a CU until a new FTA is drawn up. The problem hasn't been that, but what comes after. Labour would basically be happy for it to stay like that forever. But that isn't written into the WA, so Labour haven't voted for it. There would need to be a new _political _statement agreeing that that will (in one way or another) permanently be the case before Labour could agree.





killer b said:


> Common Market 2.0 is below: the WA would be unchanged, only the political declaration altered - Labour whipped for this last night:
> 
> _That this House –
> 
> ...



Fair enough, I stand corrected. Although I'm surprised the Parliamentary Supremacy motion was designed to be tacked on to the withdrawal agreement. 

Hard to keep up with Labour's shifting position but I think Corbyn's already significantly fucked it as I don't think he should be agreeing to something that keeps Britain in the customs union until 20XX and will likely be used to allow the EU to impose any withdrawal terms. But there we go seems like all the MP's are signed up to it. 

I still don't think he should agree to help her get it through or that he should agree any compromise Brexit or whatever but there you go he probably will.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2019)

rubbershoes said:


> The Express headline is a corker


Beyond parody.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

gosub said:


> I disagree. She has more faults than good attributes. However she has accepted the referdum result and although hamfisted, attempted to square the circle..
> 
> What she outlined doing today is nt unreasonable but outside EU's acceptable ways forward, their response, reading between the lines is get rid of May and anything is possible.
> 
> ...



I don't know what this means. I don't care if the EU wants May gone, I want May gone too.


----------



## gosub (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I don't know what this means. I don't care if the EU wants May gone, I want May gone too.


So do I. I also want Brexit.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

gosub said:


> So do I. I also want Brexit.



I'm opposed to EU membership, but what Brexit means is another matter.


----------



## prunus (Apr 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Trouble for Corbyn (as Supine says) is convincing the party that the vermin are not just lying to get it through



Which they are. ‘Workers rights’ will become an ‘aspiration’ that ‘has become an unfortunate casualty of the reality of the situation’


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I'm opposed to EU membership, but what Brexit means is another matter.


Well it doesn’t mean an immortal Theresa May so he might have a point tactically, if Brexit is blocked after May is gone we may have fucked the Tories but any cunt that gets in power after may as well be Tory. May gone would be very much a short term absolute pleasure. Pure rock and hard place eh?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Well it doesn’t mean an immortal Theresa May so he might have a point tactically, if Brexit is blocked after May is gone we may have fucked the Tories but any cunt that gets in power after may as well be Tory. May gone would be very much a short term absolute pleasure. Pure rock and hard place eh?



Aye but if Corbyn facilitates something shitty driven by May then he's done, and there won't be anything immediately better on the menu.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Aye but if Corbyn facilitates something shitty driven by May then he's done, and there won't be anything immediately better on the menu.


The menu has been shit mince and shit burgers with the option of fried shit of a vegan for years mun. Demolish the restaurant!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 2, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> The menu has been shit mince and shit burgers with the option of fried shit of a vegan for years mun. Demolish the restaurant!



Aye well you could be right there I may be getting to drawn into the whole shit show. Nonetheless, I still think what Corbyn *should* do is demand an election. But I doubt he will.


----------



## yield (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Aye but if Corbyn facilitates something shitty driven by May then he's done, and there won't be anything immediately better on the menu.


May detests Corbyn even more than his own party. There'll have to be something less shitty on offer.


----------



## gosub (Apr 2, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> The menu has been shit mince and shit burgers with the option of fried shit of a vegan for years mun. Demolish the restaurant!


I think the best chance of 'demolish the restaurant' is no deal Brexit.

EU clearly (and understand rely) came up with bad terms pour encourage Les autres but I think they over cooked it


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 2, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Aye well you could be right there I may be getting to drawn into the whole shit show. Nonetheless, I still think what Corbyn *should* do is demand an election. But I doubt he will.


I wonder whether it’s a bit too soon, it feels like it to me. I think we’d probs land exactly as we are now. Aye the Tories have continued to be disasterous but Labour have gone a fair bit downhill as well(well at least from the relative high point of the last election) already showing signs of being prepared to ditch principles just to keep afloat. Again most will be labouring under the misapprehension we’ve not been sat here watching them. 
But tactics in this mess? Who knows, it seems hard to predict.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

If nothing else it's got the loonspud wing of the tory party frothing, which is nice. 




			
				some nobhead said:
			
		

> Jeremy Corbyn is a man who would reduce the UK to an adjunct of Venezuela






			
				tory twat said:
			
		

> I think getting the support of a known Marxist is not likely to instil confidence in Conservatives



Think this is my favourite, though




			
				nomark numpty said:
			
		

> It will now be for Corbyn, Diane Abbott and John McDonnell to decide if the Conservative party implements its manifesto



Might even be a tiny bit of truth to that last one.  Note how he drags Abbott in there and omits Starmer, who would be the more obvious choice, but less frothworthy.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 2, 2019)

They really are total nob heads.
I want to know who this known Marxist is that JRM is frothing about!

Nye Bevan?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 2, 2019)

gosub said:


> I think the best chance of 'demolish the restaurant' is no deal Brexit.
> 
> EU clearly (and understand rely) came up with bad terms pour encourage Les autres but I think they over cooked it


You are probably right, it’s really hard to say LETS NO DEAL BREXIT YOU CUNTS! with gusto after years of predicted terror, though I secretly believe in it


----------



## yield (Apr 2, 2019)

gosub said:


> I think the best chance of 'demolish the restaurant' is no deal Brexit.
> 
> EU clearly (and understand rely) came up with bad terms pour encourage Les autres but I think they over cooked it


"Mais dans ce pays-ci il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres." - Voltaire

The Admiral is May. The DUP want Remain. SNP want No Deal for Independence Referendum 2. Labour lead by a Brexiteer want Remain. Tories lead by a Remainer want Brexit. 

Got to love Politics it's for contrarian masochistic anoraks. Extend for the forseeable future.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 2, 2019)

gosub said:


> EU clearly (and understand rely) came up with bad terms pour encourage Les autres but I think they over cooked it


Not sure I go along with that. The problem is the UK wanting to leave the single market and customs union but maintain an open border and honour the Good Friday Agreement without creating a (more than it already is) special status for NI. That's the UK's wishlist, not the EU's. The EU comes up with the 'backstop', without which May's deal could have got through conceivably, but how could they not have come up with the backstop? Ask Ireland to leave the EU as well. That's the only solution to this that would satisfy the UK's wishlist. So it's the UK wishlist that is the problem here, not the EU's response to it.

If anything I would think the EU's approach has been more carrot than stick wrt its remaining members. Look, we don't abandon Ireland, and we won't. This is what you have here with us.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

"Helena Anne Beatrix Wentworth Fitzwilliam de Chair Rees-Mogg sits uneasily in the drawing room awaiting the return of the Master.  As she hears the Bentley pull into the old stables she lines up Sixtus with the reading from Plutarch that usually serves to quieten the savage slight awkwardness that inhabits her husband in such moments. But tonight even the younger Rees-Moggs lisping their way through the family Vulgate Bible will not be enough. Tonight, there will be _mayhem_".


----------



## Humberto (Apr 3, 2019)

It's dreary, the whole thing isn't it. The government, the ruling establishment and their attitudes are shit and unworthy of us, a cool and clever people. Restricted by them in their narrow-minded shallow machinations. They can't even order their own affairs yet they insist on their own authority. They will make everything dull and shit and talk down to you.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 3, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Might even be a tiny bit of truth to that last one.  Note how he drags Abbott in there and omits Starmer, who would be the more obvious choice, but less frothworthy.



I'm certain the right's obsession with Abbott is 100% healthy and above board.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> They really are total nob heads.
> I want to know who this known Marxist is that JRM is frothing about!
> 
> Nye Bevan?


rebel warrior


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 3, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm certain the right's obsession with Abbott is 100% healthy and above board.


It’s wonderful how they manage to intelligently critique her policy positions with never a hint of racism or misogyny.


----------



## Ted Striker (Apr 3, 2019)

rubbershoes said:


> The Express headline is a corker



Have they commented on the impact Brexit will have on the hunt for Maddie?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Apr 3, 2019)

LBC is still melting down this morning, its lovely to listen to


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 3, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> LBC is still melting down this morning, its lovely to listen to



I can't face it till 10am


----------



## ruffneck23 (Apr 3, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> I can't face it till 10am


usually I cant, but hearing the likes of Ferrari and his rabid band of listeners almost exploding is a joy to behold


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 3, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Have they commented on the impact Brexit will have on the hunt for Maddie?


_Marxist Corbyn hypnotises May to conceal shocking link between Maddie, Diana and the EU_


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 3, 2019)

I find listening to LBC is like my  breaks at work.
Rabid, unfounded arguments based on ignorance, prejudice and foolish hatred. But I have fun taking their views to bits in under fifteen minutes.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

If he meets her in Downing Street, he should take a tape measure and start sizing up the curtains. Maybe a veg patch in the gardens.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 3, 2019)

Junior minister Nigel Adams resigns over May's 'grave error' in seeking to reach Brexit deal with Corbyn


> I and many others agreed with your previous position that no deal is better than a bad deal.
> 
> It now seems that you and your cabinet have decided that a deal - cooked up with a Marxist who has never once in his political life put British interests first – is better than no deal.
> 
> I profoundly disagree with this approach and I have therefore decided that I must reluctantly tender my resignation.



*COOKING WITH MARXISTS* - a Netflix Original series


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2019)

Wilf said:


> If he meets her in Downing Street, he should take a tape measure and start sizing up the curtains. Maybe a veg patch in the gardens.


but first of all he should pace up and down the street making sure he has pictures of the drain covers and that


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 3, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Junior minister Nigel Adams resigns over May's 'grave error' in seeking to reach Brexit deal with Corbyn
> 
> 
> *COOKING WITH MARXISTS* - a Netflix Original series



I wonder if tories think calling someone a Marxist has any traction in 2019. I doubt much of the public will have much idea of what a Marxist is, it’s clear that flouncing tories don’t.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 3, 2019)

So, who's risking more going into this meeting, and who's got better odds of coming out of it on top*?

*which, in this context, generally means not as deep in shit as the other.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> I wonder if tories think calling someone a Marxist has any traction in 2019. I doubt much of the public will have much idea of what a Marxist is, it’s clear that flouncing tories don’t.


*"I don't believe it! She's meeting with a dammed Butskellite!"*


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> So, who's risking more going into this meeting, and who's got better odds of coming out of it on top*?
> 
> *which, in this context, generally means not as deep in shit as the other.


has to be auld corbyn as there's no more that can be said about him to rubbish him more than he has been already


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> So, who's risking more going into this meeting, and who's got better odds of coming out of it on top*?
> 
> *which, in this context, generally means not as deep in shit as the other.


May passes into Tory history as the uber-Traitor, the woman who gave Brexit away to a, splutter, Marxist.

Corbyn ends up hated by the people who always hated him, probably weakens him within the party.  But apart from farage's army, probably still encamped in a pub in Middlesbrough, the public are mildly relieved it's all over.

Consequences: 1. strengthens the swivel eyed in the coming tory leadership battle. 2. If there's then a general election... who knows.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 3, 2019)

Tbf, Osborne's on-going feud with May does produce some good LES headlines...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 3, 2019)

Fucking bizarre that the farthest left Labour leader for decades is getting support from a former Tory Chancellor.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 3, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Fucking bizarre that the farthest left Labour leader for decades is getting support from a former Tory Chancellor.


He's really not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Fucking bizarre that the farthest left Labour leader for decades is getting support from a former Tory Chancellor.



'Ma'amageddon'! Speech prepared for the Queen in the event of nuclear bombs hitting Britain | Daily Mail Online
don't think they'd do that to auld corbs


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 3, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> So, who's risking more going into this meeting, and who's got better odds of coming out of it on top*?
> 
> *which, in this context, generally means not as deep in shit as the other.





Pickman's model said:


> has to be auld corbyn as there's no more that can be said about him to rubbish him more than he has been already



dunno really.

i can't see this going well.

if the talks don't lead to anything and we end up with no-deal, then the tories and their friends in the press can say it's all corbyn's fault (and the labour /remain voters will be pissed off) - 

or if we end up with a long extension to article 50 then same again but with the labour / leave voters pissed off.

or if the outcome is a softish brexit, then the tories and their friends in the press will say corbyn has betrayed brexit and it's all his fault (and the labour / leave voters will be pissed off because it's not really brexit, and the labour / remain voters will be pissed off because it's still a brexit of some sort)

i'm inclined to think that a principled decision would be to tell the tories this is a shambles of their own making and not to get involved, but i can see that wouldn't play well.

i don't think corbyn has got the political / weasel skills to come out of this well.  i can't see the press - whatever the outcome - hailing corbyn as the country's saviour for sorting out this bloody shambles.



brogdale said:


> Tbf, Osborne's on-going feud with May does produce some good LES headlines...





the line of the evening sub-standard over the last year or two has tended to be how bloody awful may is but corbyn would be worse


----------



## brogdale (Apr 3, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> the line of the evening sub-standard over the last year or two has tended to be how bloody awful may is but corbyn would be worse


It still is; it's just an (by 'Evening standards') amusing conflation of those two notions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> dunno really.
> 
> i can't see this going well.
> 
> ...


everyone's seen may cock things up for the best part of three years so i doubt much mud would stick to corbyn in the event this engagement fails. it's more likely he'll be blamed if it succeeds.


----------



## Santino (Apr 3, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Tbf, Osborne's on-going feud with May does produce some good LES headlines...
> 
> View attachment 166513


Is he doing the Eric Morecambe glasses thing there?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i'm inclined to think that a principled decision would be to tell the tories this is a shambles of their own making and not to get involved, but i can see that wouldn't play well.


I think you may overstate how pissed off labour-voting leave supporters would be with a soft brexit. The tory activists are frothing about it, but I've really not heard anything to suggest left-leaning people doing the same. The lines that x, y or z would not be 'real brexit' are generally being pushed by the right for a right-leaning audience. I see no evidence of resonance with the left.

That aside, I agree with this point. It's a bloody cheek of May to spend three years excluding anyone but the tories from the brexit process only to call in for help after fucking it all up. If you don't want to govern, have a GE, should be the cry now. But that would play badly. Corbyn needs to try to look like the grown-up in the room, and that means agreeing to talks.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

Santino said:


> Is he doing the Eric Morecambe glasses thing there?
> 
> View attachment 166517


I was thinking that.  Maybe he's going to pretend she's wearing a wig.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 3, 2019)

God knows what line Corbyn can take in PMQ's.
He kind of has to say 'ok, I'm coming round to your gaff, but it stinks of piss, can you at least Hoover up first and empty Larry's litter tray for the first time in months?'


----------



## andysays (Apr 3, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think you may overstate how pissed off labour-voting leave supporters would be with a soft brexit. The tory activists are frothing about it, but I've really not heard anything to suggest left-leaning people doing the same. The lines that x, y or z would not be 'real brexit' are generally being pushed by the right for a right-leaning audience. I see no evidence of resonance with the left.
> 
> That aside, I agree with this point. It's a bloody cheek of May to spend three years excluding anyone but the tories from the brexit process only to call in for help after fucking it all up. If you don't want to govern, have a GE, should be the cry now. But that would play badly. Corbyn needs to try to look like the grown-up in the room, and that means agreeing to talks.


It means agreeing to talks, but it clearly doesn't mean agreeing to any old shit she suggests.

It also depends on what Corbyn's priorities are. Is it just about Brexit or is it primarily about driving a wedge further into the split in the Tory party?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

philosophical said:


> God knows what line Corbyn can take in PMQ's.
> He kind of has to say 'ok, I'm coming round to your gaff, but it stinks of piss, can you at least Hoover up first and empty Larry's litter tray for the first time in months?'


I think that's more the line that Julian Assange's visitors tend to take.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 3, 2019)

Isn't this just a way for May to pin any lack of progress on Corbyn/Labour? Given her track record I'm finding it difficult to imagine any flexibility or compromise on her part...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

Priti Patel is winning the Frothathon at the moment:

“A man who sides with terrorists and socialist dictators, would surrender our nuclear deterrent, has let antisemitism run rife in his party and would bankrupt Britain has now been given the keys to Brexit,”


----------



## Rosemary Jest (Apr 3, 2019)

May is thick as fuck and has been backed into a corner.

She's now clutching at the shortest straw after all the others have been sucked, but I doubt she has an over arching plan in all this.

It might well pan out that blame will be pinned on Corbyn if talks fail, but she just wants power and that would be a welcome side effect for May, not the intention.


----------



## Poi E (Apr 3, 2019)

At least it will provide a bit of light relief for Corbyn. Watching the fucker squirm and swallow her pride.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2019)

Rosemary Jest said:


> May is thick as fuck and has been backed into a corner.
> 
> She's now clutching at the shortest straw after all the others have been sucked, but I doubt she has an over arching plan in all this.
> 
> It might well pan out that blame will be pinned on Corbyn if talks fail, but she just wants power and that would be a welcome side effect for May, not the intention.


corbs more likely to get blamed if talks succeed than if they fail


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

Poi E said:


> At least it will provide a bit of light relief for Corbyn. Watching the fucker squirm and swallow her pride.


He should go in there wearing a Che T-Shirt, one of his Maoist caps and whistling the Red Flag.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Apr 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> corbs more likely to get blamed if talks succeed than if they fail


which is her master plan, I reckon


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2019)

Wilf said:


> He should go in there wearing a Che T-Shirt, one of his Maoist caps and whistling the Red Flag.


he only knows the 'once a year' version


----------



## Cid (Apr 3, 2019)

May is, apparently, pretty closed off at the best of times and shit at talking... it’s going to be colossally awkward in there.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 3, 2019)

Corbyn might walk in and show her the white eared elephant to break the ice!


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 3, 2019)

"Hello Theresa, if you could just show me where you keep the magic money tree...?"


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 3, 2019)

Most likely its just a sham to try and blame some of the shit show on corbyn. 
I very much doubt they would come to agreement - partly because it would go down like a cup of cold sick with both parties. 
The fact that none of senior brexiteer ministers have resigned suggests that may is not going to soften her red lines. At most may will go agree to change in the language of the PD to be more custom union orientated - but nothing binding that her successor cant just rip up. 
Corbyn wont agree to that. Talks fail. 
May can say " i tried".


----------



## Cid (Apr 3, 2019)

As pointed out last night, the key is run-off votes ‘if’ they can’t agree.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2019)

Cid said:


> As pointed out last night, the key is run-off votes ‘if’ they can’t agree.


i vote we run off the cabinet first, and then the erg


----------



## andysays (Apr 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i vote we run off the cabinet first, and then the erg


This post shows a disappointing lack of ambition.

I suggest we find a big enough cliff and run all 650 of them off simultaneously...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2019)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2019)

andysays said:


> This post shows a disappointing lack of ambition.
> 
> I suggest we find a big enough cliff and run all 650 of them off simultaneously...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> .


Gadarene Brexit Swine!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

"For we are many"
- how many?
"17.4 million"


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2019)

Wilf said:


> "For we are many"
> - how many?
> "17.4 million"


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i vote we run off the cabinet first, and then the erg



Stagist approach. 



andysays said:


> This post shows a disappointing lack of ambition.
> 
> I suggest we find a big enough cliff and run all 650 of them off simultaneously...



Permanent Revolution


----------



## not a trot (Apr 3, 2019)

All he has to do is walk in with a rolled up copy of the DM under his arm, ask where the bog is, and she'll be putty in his hands.


----------



## gosub (Apr 3, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm certain the right's obsession with Abbott is 100% healthy and above board.


Or as Abbott would have it 98754321%.


----------



## Santino (Apr 3, 2019)

gosub said:


> Or as Abbott would have it 98754321%.


Fuck off.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Apr 3, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> "Hello Theresa, if you could just show me where you keep the magic money tree...?"



If the DUP's support when it suits them is worth a billion.....


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 3, 2019)

Chris Heaton-Harris, junior minister in the department for attempting to exit the EU has resigned.   Saying PM has "made his job irrelevant"

Who he?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2019)

Harry Smiles said:


> If the DUP's support when it suits them is worth a billion.....


Got to be worth 20 bil. Then do what the DUP did and vote against her anyway.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 3, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Saying PM has "made his job irrelevant"


Let's be fair, it's been a collective effort.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 3, 2019)

Most interest news of the day I think..(if it is) The next step



Who would win from that?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 3, 2019)

The moment when "that guy" joins the conversation at a party and everyone stops talking


----------



## killer b (Apr 3, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Chris Heaton-Harris, junior minister in the department for attempting to exit the EU has resigned.   Saying PM has "made his job irrelevant"
> 
> Who he?


he was a junior minister in the department for exiting the EU.


----------



## Santino (Apr 3, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> The moment when "that guy" joins the conversation at a party and everyone stops talking


Why didn't the Leader of Change UK appear?


----------



## LDC (Apr 3, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Most interest news of the day I think.. The next step
> 
> 
> 
> Who would win from that?




May's deal or revoke. Probably May's deal I think.


----------



## Poi E (Apr 3, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> The moment when "that guy" joins the conversation at a party and everyone stops talking



If it shuts up CU, good.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> May's deal or revoke. Probably May's deal I think.


If the DUP do what they say they'll do, they'll put revoke ahead of May's deal. That leaves it in Labour's court, just about. In that situation, if every Labour MP voted 1. Labour deal 2. Revoke, then one of those two should get through.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 3, 2019)

Santino said:


> Why didn't the Leader of Change UK appear?


Is one of many obvious questions. It was billed as a 'joint press conference', so my guess is Umunna was there as their spokesperson doing the speaking.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 3, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If the DUP do what they say they'll do, they'll put revoke ahead of May's deal. That leaves it in Labour's court, just about. In that situation, if every Labour MP voted 1. Labour deal 2. Revoke, then one of those two should get through.


Dont want to get too ahead of ourselves, but if Labour Deal (which means CM2) or Revoke won, how are the Tories going to implement that?

LOL


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Dont want to get too ahead of ourselves, but if Labour Deal (which means CM2) or Revoke won, how are the Tories going to implement that?
> 
> LOL


If that is CM2, which I hope it is (as in it includes a largely preserved freedom of movement and means scrapping the settlement scheme), it's actually the easiest brexit to implement, practically speaking - certainly loads easier than May's thing. Revoke, meanwhile, is really really easy to implement. Can do it in an afternoon.  As for the political practicalities, well that's their problem. 

I'm keeping my money firmly in my pocket, but I'd be betting first on something like CM2 and second on Revoke at this moment. Thing with Revoke is that on the day it happens, it may feel momentous, but we'll all wake up the next day to find that its only effect is that nothing has changed. I would predict brexit dying with a whimper rather than a riot in such an eventuality.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 3, 2019)

Indicative vote tied, 310 noes and ayes. 
Speaker cast his vote no. I didn't think he could vote?


----------



## Crispy (Apr 3, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Indicative vote tied, 310 noes and ayes.
> Speaker cast his vote no. I didn't think he could vote?


Only to break a tie


----------



## Balbi (Apr 3, 2019)

And then only in favour if it's not a final vote, so if there was to be further debate he could vote aye.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 3, 2019)

Crispy said:


> Only to break a tie


Yeh, just watching it now. I didn't think I could get anymore confused with this shite.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 3, 2019)

Balbi said:


> And then only in favour if it's not a final vote, so if there was to be further debate he could vote aye.


But wawasn this a vote for further debate?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 3, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If that is CM2, which I hope it is (as in it includes a largely preserved freedom of movement and means scrapping the settlement scheme), it's actually the easiest brexit to implement, practically speaking - certainly loads easier than May's thing. Revoke, meanwhile, is really really easy to implement. Can do it in an afternoon.  As for the political practicalities, well that's their problem.
> 
> I'm keeping my money firmly in my pocket, but I'd be betting first on something like CM2 and second on Revoke at this moment. Thing with Revoke is that on the day it happens, it may feel momentous, but we'll all wake up the next day to find that its only effect is that nothing has changed. I would predict brexit dying with a whimper rather than a riot in such an eventuality.


I wasnt clear, I meant how will May implement it without having her party kick her out before she finishes uttering the words! Fact is no Tory party leader would be allowed to implement what would be seen as a Labour plan, and against the stated party membership. Now that would be a constitutional crisis if it gets that far!


----------



## Balbi (Apr 3, 2019)

Crispy said:


> But wawasn this a vote for further debate?



Not exactly. It was a vote to definitively alter the House schedule for Monday, rather than the first or second reading of a bill. There would have been no more debate about this scheduling change. Therefore he had to vote no


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

Bercow will be fucking loving this.


----------



## Supine (Apr 3, 2019)

Crispy said:


> But wawasn this a vote for further debate?



A vote for further votes


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 3, 2019)

This is literally bercow’s dream come true.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 3, 2019)

Finding it hard to say anything coherent on the topic any more. Brexit Means GG jk JC ddzbjub GG fr ft UI I'd e as in hi o ok by ffxit.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 3, 2019)

A rare sighting of Speaker Denison's Rule in the wild...


----------



## alsoknownas (Apr 3, 2019)

Is this like when referees give a 'leveller'?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 3, 2019)

Crispy said:


> Finding it hard to say anything coherent on the topic any more. Brexit Means GG jk JC ddzbjub GG fr ft UI I'd e as in hi o ok by ffxit.



Congratulations, you have passed the test, and are now qualified to become an MP.


----------



## 8115 (Apr 3, 2019)

Why do people keep saying "this is not what the people voted for". It was 52-48, how anyone can take that as a strong mandate against a soft Brexit I don't know. It's not good for my blood pressure.

I've got no horse in this race, I no longer care much, or really know what I think but this one thing really grinds my gears.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I wasnt clear, I meant how will May implement it without having her party kick her out before she finishes uttering the words! Fact is no Tory party leader would be allowed to implement what would be seen as a Labour plan, and against the stated party membership. Now that would be a constitutional crisis if it gets that far!


It would be a tory party crisis, for sure. But would it be a constitutional crisis? May would have passed something through the Commons wrt brexit. I guess it would be fitting in the process if that were to mean that she couldn't then do that thing the Commons has (kind of) agreed on.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

They've now voted for something else. lol.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2019)

8115 said:


> Why do people keep saying "this is not what the people voted for". It was 52-48, how anyone can take that as a strong mandate against a soft Brexit I don't know. It's not good for my blood pressure.
> 
> I've got no horse in this race, I no longer care much, or really know what I think but this one thing really grinds my gears.


This is people pushing their agendas under the cover of 'democracy'.


----------



## andysays (Apr 3, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I wasnt clear, I meant how will May implement it without having her party kick her out before she finishes uttering the words! Fact is no Tory party leader would be allowed to implement what would be seen as a Labour plan, and against the stated party membership. Now that would be a constitutional crisis if it gets that far!


They can't kick her out for another year after the ERG's failed VoNC...


----------



## ska invita (Apr 3, 2019)

andysays said:


> They can't kick her out for another year after the ERG's failed VoNC...


I might be wrong but isn't there the grey suit maneuver that overrides that?


----------



## andysays (Apr 3, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I might be wrong but isn't there the grey suit maneuver that overrides that?


Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know there is no formal procedure by which her leadership of the party can be challenged until the year is up.

I suppose Prince Philip could ask MI5 to dispose of her...


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 3, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I might be wrong but isn't there the grey suit maneuver that overrides that?



 THey cant use the formal method of changing leader till december - but if enough people in the party want rid of her they will force her out - mass cabinet resignations, mps refusing to serve under her etc etc.


----------



## andysays (Apr 3, 2019)

The editor of the Spectator appears to have a better grasp of the issues at stake than the Guardian's Polly Toynbee


> Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee says Labour face "a real dilemma" over negotiations with Theresa May. She says the party leadership should not agree to anything without a promise to put the deal "back to people". "Anything else would be a catastrophe," she says. "If he agrees a deal without confirmation from the people he owns it [Brexit]."





> Spectator editor Fraser Nelson agrees it is a "great dilemma" but adds that if, by doing a deal on the customs union, "he can split the Tories down the middle that might be a prize worth paying". "We could be looking at a Tory split, we could be looking at the end on Tory Party"... He says if Theresa May does a deal with Jeremy Corbyn there will be many more resignations.


----------



## Balbi (Apr 3, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> THey cant use the formal method of changing leader till december - but if enough people in the party want rid of her they will force her out - mass cabinet resignations, mps refusing to serve under her etc etc.



Except, of course, J Corbz has proven this doesn't always work.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 3, 2019)

andysays said:


> The editor of the Spectator appears to have a better grasp of the issues at stake than the Guardian's Polly Toynbee


The People's Vote obsessives are doing my nut in. They literally think it's the magic solution. It is so far from being that, whatever the result of the vote - and it's only people in the London bubble who are convinced it would definitely return the result they want. It's the stupidity as much as anything that gets to me.

In the meantime it seems Corbyn and Mays talks today have mostly been about further talks. The twists and turns of this will require an entire Netflix drama series, not just a film. I will not watch it.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 3, 2019)

Balbi said:


> Except, of course, J Corbz has proven this doesn't always work.



corbyn had the overwhelming support of the membership - and labour weren't in power.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 3, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> corbyn had the overwhelming support of the membership - and labour weren't in power.


TBF IIRC May had, if not overwhelming, strong support of the membership back in Dec, not seem any that still holds true. And the nature of the support was very different to Corbyn's


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 3, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> The twists and turns of this will require an entire Netflix drama series, not just a film. I will not watch it.



Nor me, somethings are worth watching as a repeat, but this isn't one of those things.


----------



## Supine (Apr 3, 2019)

Corbyn has just said he mentioned to maybot a second ref 'to avoid a no deal or a bad deal'. So he is leaving it open for no ref needed if he believes they agree a good deal. Weak.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 3, 2019)

Supine said:


> Corbyn has just said he mention to maybot a second ref 'to avoid a no deal or a bad deal'. So he is leaving it open for no ref needed if he believes they agree a good deal. Weak.





Brainaddict said:


> The People's Vote obsessives are doing my nut in. They literally think it's the magic solution. It is so far from being that, whatever the result of the vote - and it's only people in the London bubble who are convinced it would definitely return the result they want. It's the stupidity as much as anything that gets to me.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 3, 2019)

andysays said:


> The editor of the Spectator appears to have a better grasp of the issues at stake than the Guardian's Polly Toynbee


Fuck the Spectator and fuck doing a deal with May

And fuck enabling a brexit that makes deportable tens of thousands of people living on this island.


----------



## andysays (Apr 3, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Fuck the Spectator and fuck doing a deal with May
> 
> And fuck enabling a brexit that makes deportable tens of thousands of people living on this island.



And fuck anyone who doesn't share your narrow perspective, based, as you regularly demonstrate, on a pretty tenuous grasp of what's actually going on...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

andysays said:


> The editor of the Spectator appears to have a better grasp of the issues at stake than the Guardian's Polly Toynbee


She's 100% wrong, he may well be right. Same time, I can't see the Tory Party splitting into 2 full factions, it will always reform like a shit version of the liquid metal terminator.  Of course ukip has chosen the wrong moment to go the full tommy robinson. Not likely to pick up too many erg types, however nutz they are.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 3, 2019)

Supine said:


> Corbyn has just said he mentioned to maybot a second ref 'to avoid a no deal or a bad deal'. So he is leaving it open for no ref needed if he believes they agree a good deal. Weak.



Seems reasonable to me, considering there doesn't seem to be a majority in house, nor in the country, for a second ref.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 3, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> TBF IIRC May had, if not overwhelming, strong support of the membership back in Dec, not seem any that still holds true. And the nature of the support was very different to Corbyn's



the vote in december was only among tory MPs not the party membership - think the rule is (tory) party membership only get a vote on last 2 candidates in a leadership election once MPs votes have eliminated other candidates.  assuming it gets as far as 2 candidates standing which it didn't when TM was elected party leader.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 3, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> the vote in december was only among tory MPs not the party membership - think the rule is (tory) party membership only get a vote on last 2 candidates in a leadership election once MPs votes have eliminated other candidates.  assuming it gets as far as 2 candidates standing which it didn't when TM was elected party leader.


Yes but unless I'm mistaken polling gave her a strong majority among the party membership


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes but unless I'm mistaken polling gave her a strong majority among the party membership


Yes think that's right but look at the opposition at the time. Leadsome


----------



## Balbi (Apr 3, 2019)

They're still passing the no no-deal stuff, even though it's almost entirely out of their hands


----------



## gosub (Apr 3, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> The People's Vote obsessives are doing my nut in. They literally think it's the magic solution. It is so far from being that, whatever the result of the vote - and it's only people in the London bubble who are convinced it would definitely return the result they want. It's the stupidity as much as anything that gets to me.
> 
> In the meantime it seems Corbyn and Mays talks today have mostly been about further talks. The twists and turns of this will require an entire Netflix drama series, not just a film. I will not watch it.


Bbbbut the previous referendum was such fun and the loss of life was minimal


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 3, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> usually I cant, but hearing the likes of Ferrari and his rabid band of listeners almost exploding is a joy to behold




Just caught the last 5 mins of Nigel, and some guy said somethign about a bomb and then taking up arms, was last caller, get it on catch up in you want a laugh.


----------



## Supine (Apr 3, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Seems reasonable to me, considering there doesn't seem to be a majority in house, nor in the country, for a second ref.



He's setting himself up for complicity if an agreed exit turns out to be a bad thing. He'll also annoy his majority remain party. Any agreement made with maybot won't be legally enforceable and open for shredding by the new tory leader in a couple of months time. I can't see any upsides for him if there's no people's mandate from whatever they agree.


----------



## Flavour (Apr 3, 2019)

I think may has a personal grudge against the people who make "brexit: what happens next" flowcharts


----------



## gosub (Apr 3, 2019)

Flavour said:


> I think may has a personal grudge against the people who make "brexit: what happens next" flowcharts


I'm sure the feeling is mutual


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 3, 2019)

May could be being smart, attempting to create fractures in Labour, then once it’s kicked off call a GE whilst the party is still in chaos. Other cabinet members could be in on the deal, and acting outraged now is just play acting which will quickly resolve to unity when the time comes. 

But on previous evidence she’s not that bright.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 3, 2019)

This is incredibly stupid imo, and has apparently been their policy for quite some time.

Labour confirms it wants to end freedom of movement - LabourList


----------



## philosophical (Apr 3, 2019)

A friend of mine sent me this another friend had written, part of a longer piece, but I found it interesting in the way it attempts to interrogate the idea that in 2017 both major parties stood on the exact same ticket in their manifestos regarding brexit:

_'I know the major Political parties in the General Election of 2017 did stand on manifesto to effect our EU departure. Did you read the manifesto? I did. Could the nature of departure have been more different?

I also looked up the results. The Conservatives collectively campaigned on leaving the Single Market, Customs Union & referenced a No Deal Brexit securing 42.45% of the electoral vote. To which you can add UKIP 1.84%. A total of 44.3% of votes.

The Labour Party Manifesto specifically ruled out the Government White Paper advising they would seek a closer liaison with the EU via a Customs Union and rejected any prospect of a No deal securing 40% of votes

Lib-Dems, SNP & Greens argued a remain agenda seeking another referendum securing 12.04% of votes. The DUP, Sinn Fein & Plaid Cmyru 1.93% all quoted frictionless trade with the EU.

Does not that mean 54% of the electorate voted against leaving the EU without a deal?

Did not the votes cast in Parliament on Friday 286 - 344 reflect a 45% - 55% split entirely in line with the legally binding 2017 election result and the mandate provided to the respective parties?'_


----------



## andysays (Apr 3, 2019)

philosophical said:


> A friend of mine sent me this another friend had written, part of a longer piece, but I found it interesting in the way it attempts to interrogate *the idea that in 2017 both major parties stood on the exact same ticket in their manifestos regarding brexit*:
> ...


Who is supposed to be suggesting that?


----------



## rutabowa (Apr 3, 2019)

I confess I am not totally sure what "freedom of movement" means


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 3, 2019)

rutabowa said:


> I confess I am not totally sure what "freedom of movement" means


Loose fitting clothes.


----------



## Winot (Apr 3, 2019)

teqniq said:


> This is incredibly stupid imo, and has apparently been their policy for quite some time.
> 
> Labour confirms it wants to end freedom of movement - LabourList



It was in their 2017 GE manifesto wasn’t it?


----------



## teqniq (Apr 3, 2019)

Yes it says in the article.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 3, 2019)

rutabowa said:


> I confess I am not totally sure what "freedom of movement" means


Urban v's the Commentariat


----------



## andysays (Apr 3, 2019)

Chuka speaks!


> Independent MP Chuka Umunna says the bill contains a "glaring omission". He wonders why none of the amendments selected for debate contain proposals for another referendum, or people's vote.





> "The European Council has been absolutely clear that the UK will not necessarily be granted an extension for a general purpose but we will need to specify what it is we wish to have an extension for," he says. "To be sure of getting the extension to stop no-deal... you not only request an extension but it is for the purposes of something that will lead to us being granted the extension we require."


----------



## rutabowa (Apr 3, 2019)

If there was real freedom of movement everyone would be living by the seaside or somewhere.... or hackney


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 3, 2019)

I live by the seaside, seemed like a good move, but seagulls.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 3, 2019)

andysays said:


> Who is supposed to be suggesting that?



I believe I have often heard it said, or alluded to, that both parties would be betraying manifesto promises with regard to brexit, and that it is in kind of the same way.


----------



## rutabowa (Apr 3, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I live by the seaside, seemed like a good move, but seagulls.


And I live in hackney, I recognise my privilege


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 3, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I live by the seaside, seemed like a good move, but seagulls.



The tourists are worse than the seagulls.


----------



## alsoknownas (Apr 3, 2019)

I moved from Hackney to the seaside.  Haven't regretted it so far.


----------



## Balbi (Apr 3, 2019)

andysays said:


> Chuka speaks!



I hope he's started to get the sensation of the sand under his feet being sucked away, he's liable to provide a satisfying Portillo moment at the next election.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 3, 2019)

Balbi said:


> I hope he's started to get the sensation of the sand under his feet being sucked away, he's liable to provide a satisfying Portillo moment at the next election.


I’d be surprised if any of his group keep their seats.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 3, 2019)

i cant see either corbyn or may wanting to actually agree to a deal - it would cause huge ructions in both parties.  May is just trying to spread the blame and make it look like she's "reaching out". Corbyn cant really refuse to take part. Its a charade.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 3, 2019)

on the BBC news feed



> *Second largest government defeat in modern times*
> 
> The government was defeated on amendment 22 by 180 votes.
> 
> ...



all going fine, then...


----------



## gosub (Apr 3, 2019)

Santino said:


> Fuck off.


Sorry, when it comes to D. Abbott I am very of the Dead Ringers Brillo school of thought.  Gender and ethithinccity pay no part. Peter is as principalled as ever.


----------



## Cid (Apr 3, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> on the BBC news feed
> 
> 
> 
> all going fine, then...



Ouch...

Telegraph's Mikhailova is reporting a 'senior labour source' as... well, as this:


New: Labour source told me the option of a confirmatory vote was raised 'multiple times' in the Corbyn-May meeting.

1 reply5 retweets19 likes

New: Senior Labour source telling me today's talks did not go as well as initially thought: 'May offered nothing today. Unless tomorrow's talks change the narrative it seems to be a waste of time.'

22 replies66 retweets79 likes


----------



## Santino (Apr 3, 2019)

gosub said:


> Sorry, when it comes to D. Abbott I am very of the Dead Ringers Brillo school of thought.  Gender and ethithinccity pay no part. Peter is as principalled as ever.


Fuck off. How often do you criticise the basic numeracy of white Tory men?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 3, 2019)




----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 3, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Loose fitting clothes.


It’s true, I seen an advert for loose fitting clothes with that title earlier on today!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 3, 2019)

Santino said:


> Fuck off. How often do you criticise the basic numeracy of white Tory men?


Probably all the time? I’ve not seen him particularly laying into black people more than anyone else.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 3, 2019)

I say that now with  trepidation  having not read the entire thread.... eeehhhh


----------



## Santino (Apr 3, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Probably all the time? I’ve not seen him particularly laying into black people more than anyone else.


There are plenty of legitimate reasons why someone might want to criticise Diane Abbot, but the attacks on her numeracy are clearly motivated by misogyny and racism.


----------



## gosub (Apr 3, 2019)

Santino said:


> Fuck off. How often do you criticise the basic numeracy of white Tory men?


Well there was that election night I got pissed at the count and harranged the local MP who'd sold all the married quarters in the country and then publically admitted he didn't realise rent would now be on the balance sheet


(I was quite drunk at the time)


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 3, 2019)

Santino said:


> There are plenty of legitimate reasons why someone might want to criticise Diane Abbot, but the attacks on her numeracy are clearly motivated by misogyny and racism.


I’m gonna have to scroll back but as a stand alone sentence I’m inclined to disagree.


ETA: in context now, I dunno I’m sitting on the fence. Was that really the intent? I think more clumsiness in a convo about attacks from the right.


----------



## yield (Apr 3, 2019)

Santino said:


> There are plenty of legitimate reasons why someone might want to criticise Diane Abbot, but the attacks on her numeracy are clearly motivated by misogyny and racism.


I've drank with gosub he's sound. It was a shit joke though.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 3, 2019)

Santino said:


> There are plenty of legitimate reasons why someone might want to criticise Diane Abbot, but the attacks on her numeracy are clearly motivated by misogyny and racism.


It’s just the poster in question has never come across as racist or mysogynist to me in the past.


----------



## gosub (Apr 4, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> It’s just the poster in question has never come across as racist or mysogynist to me in the past.


Thank you.


----------



## gosub (Apr 4, 2019)

yield said:


> I've drank with gosub he's sound. It was a shit joke though.


Youtube has been dishing me up a lot of Norm Mcdonald. A genius when in the zone, but... Algarhthyms  [emoji102]


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 4, 2019)

I can’t be the only one who feels exhausted keeping up with all this shit for weeks on end. Can it all just fuck off soon?


----------



## Humberto (Apr 4, 2019)

I suppose as a socialist you have to take a side. As in: you can't be partly for the cause that you espouse if you want them to disappear. That you have contempt and disgust at this establishment. Not that it is all somber discipline. On the contrary, it is fellowship for a justice that is commanded by basic rights, and the right thing to do.

We know where their way has led for so many and where it is leading to for so many more. Therefore, oppose if you going to oppose and team up against them. Its sounds dramatic but something needs to switch. That may require great change, but why should we be wary anymore? There is still more than enough for us all in the present and the unclaimed future. It's not a pipe dream. It is self-evidently the correct way to do things. It comes down to survival and justice.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 4, 2019)

Santino said:


> There are plenty of legitimate reasons why someone might want to criticise Diane Abbot, but the attacks on her numeracy are clearly motivated by misogyny and racism.


Your list of legitimate reasons has been tested and given the all clear for being free of misogynistic and racist motivation, we can assume?


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 4, 2019)

Humberto said:


> I suppose as a socialist you have to take a side. As in: you can't be partly for the cause that you espouse if you want them to disappear. That you have contempt and disgust at this establishment. Not that it is all somber discipline. On the contrary, it is fellowship for a justice that is commanded by basic rights, and the right thing to do.
> 
> We know where their way has led for so many and where it is leading to for so many more. Therefore, oppose if you going to oppose and team up against them. Its sounds dramatic but something needs to switch. That may require great change, but why should we be wary anymore? There is still more than enough for us all in the present and the unclaimed future. It's not a pipe dream. It is self-evidently the correct way to do things. It comes down to survival and justice.


What does this mean? The _side _socialists should be taking is the side of the working class, that means the not picking one team of capital over another.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2019)

Humberto said:


> I suppose as a socialist you have to take a side.


i supposed that 'as a socialist' you'd already have a side


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i supposed that 'as a socialist' you'd already have a side



I went for fries. Should have been good and picked coleslaw.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I went for fries. Should have been good and picked coleslaw.


I’d have gone fries _and_ coleslaw.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i supposed that 'as a socialist' you'd already have a side



Part time lecturer is a popular one!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I went for fries. Should have been good and picked coleslaw.


should have been good and picked your proper chips


----------



## andysays (Apr 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I went for fries. Should have been good and picked coleslaw.


Did you see Chuka and the gang at Nandos?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 4, 2019)

andysays said:


> Did you see Chuka and the gang at Nandos?



Of course. I'm _always _at Nando's. 

I like those guys. They're proper ordinary people who like spicy chicken just like me.


----------



## Santino (Apr 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Of course. I'm _always _at Nando's.
> 
> I like those guys. They're proper ordinary people who like spicy chicken just like me.


They seem like pretty reasonable guys, who also like *evidence-based policies *and *finding common ground*.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 4, 2019)

Santino said:


> They seem like pretty reasonable guys, who also like *evidence-based policies *and *finding common ground*.



Not like that Marxist Jeremy Corbyn. I bet he never goes to Nando's.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Not like that Marxist Jeremy Corbyn. I bet he never goes to Nando's.


Vegetarian. Like Hitler.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 4, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Vegetarian. Like Hitler.



Worse than, allegedly.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 4, 2019)

Santino said:


> They seem like pretty reasonable guys, who also like *evidence-based policies *and *finding common ground*.


You referring to the TIGgers or the staff in Nando's?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 4, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Vegetarian. Like Hitler.



And me. I'm worse than Hitler.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> And me. I'm worse than Hitler.



That guarantees your face won’t be used for target practice though.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 4, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> That guarantees your face won’t be used for target practice though.



Because I'm vegetarian?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Because I'm vegetarian?


because the paras have never heard of you


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Because I'm vegetarian?


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I went for fries. Should have been good and picked coleslaw.



Coleslaw is apparently worse for you than fries, the "good" side dishes are stuff like raw carrots, but who's going to go to a restaurant and pay money for raw carrots? The Guardian could probably make this into an extended Brexit analogy.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 4, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> Coleslaw is apparently worse for you than fries, the "good" side dishes are stuff like raw carrots, but who's going to go to a restaurant and pay money for raw carrots? The Guardian could probably make this into an extended Brexit analogy.



I do like raw carrots but they'd be well expensive. 

On the plus side, turns out fries are ok!

But not proper chips. But we weren't in a chippy.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> because the paras have never heard of you



Someday...


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> because the paras have never heard of you



GCHQ on the other hand.


----------



## Argonia (Apr 4, 2019)

So is No Deal off the table now?


----------



## maomao (Apr 4, 2019)

Argonia said:


> So is No Deal off the table now?




Won't be off the table unless they get a bill requiring to revoke as an alternative. It's always the default.


----------



## Argonia (Apr 4, 2019)

Oh OK I thought the Cooper Bill took it off the table but maybe not. Fuck I'm exhausted with this, I can't imagine would it be like to actually try to deal with this as a policy.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 4, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Oh OK I thought the Cooper Bill took it off the table but maybe not. Fuck I'm exhausted with this, I can't imagine would it be like to actually try to deal with this as a policy.



Easy. Just nationalise everything. 

We did it in the war! 

No deal won't happen though.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2019)

maomao said:


> Won't be off the table unless they get a bill requiring to revoke as an alternative. It's always the default.


This is the thing they've all been dancing around, isn't it. They all know the only way to guarantee no deal is to advocate revoke in its stead, but they're mostly scared to say it out loud.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 4, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> What does this mean? The _side _socialists should be taking is the side of the working class, that means the not picking one team of capital over another.


 
That is what I was trying to express I think, although fair cop.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 4, 2019)

Humberto said:


> That is what I was trying to express I think, although fair cop.



I suspect it hasn’t helped you much with Brexit though.


----------



## chilango (Apr 4, 2019)

Presumably if they do get "confirmatory vote" attached to May's deal we'll get to resoundingly reject it too?

...and then what?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2019)

Humberto said:


> That is what I was trying to express I think, although fair cop.


acab


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 4, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Oh OK I thought the Cooper Bill took it off the table but maybe not. Fuck I'm exhausted with this, I can't imagine would it be like to actually try to deal with this as a policy.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 4, 2019)

chilango said:


> Presumably if they do get "confirmatory vote" attached to May's deal we'll get to resoundingly reject it too?
> 
> ...and then what?


We go back to "what worked before", when "we were getting on pretty well".



Humberto said:


> That is what I was trying to express I think, although fair cop.


OK. I just wasn't quite sure what you were saying.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 4, 2019)

chilango said:


> Presumably if they do get "confirmatory vote" attached to May's deal we'll get to resoundingly reject it too?
> 
> ...and then what?


Schools get every Thursday off as we go back for vote after vote, surely? Only reasonable response, I think.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 4, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> We go back to "what worked before", when "we were getting on pretty well".
> 
> OK. I just wasn't quite sure what you were saying.



I’m glad you got it. I didn’t.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Schools get every Thursday off as we go back for vote after vote, surely? Only reasonable response, I think.


School week divided in two, mon to weds, fri-sat

Thousands flee teaching


----------



## Cid (Apr 4, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Oh OK I thought the Cooper Bill took it off the table but maybe not. Fuck I'm exhausted with this, I can't imagine would it be like to actually try to deal with this as a policy.



It’s because no deal isn’t under anyone’s control. The cooper bill might (not sure specifically how it operates)mean they must request a long extension, but the eu can still turn it down.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 4, 2019)

HoC suspended because water is flooding in from a leak


----------



## Argonia (Apr 4, 2019)

Vicki Young of the BBC said it might be sewage.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2019)

Crispy said:


> HoC suspended because water is flooding in from a leak



The ship is sinking.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 4, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Vicki Young of the BBC said it might be sewage.


Yep, tends to leak out of the place rather than in. Usually.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2019)

Cid said:


> It’s because no deal isn’t under anyone’s control. The cooper bill might (not sure specifically how it operates)mean they must request a long extension, but the eu can still turn it down.



That's not strictly true. The govt and parliament can together avoid no deal by revoking. First, they should march off to the EU to request an extension with the solemn threat, expressed in the severest of terms, that they will abandon the whole thing if the EU turns them down.


----------



## gosub (Apr 4, 2019)

chilango said:


> Presumably if they do get "confirmatory vote" attached to May's deal we'll get to resoundingly reject it too?
> 
> ...and then what?


Re education camps


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 4, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Vicki Young of the BBC said it might be sewage.



Maybe MPs are just producing bilge.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2019)

Video here - Parliament flooded as huge leak forces MPs to evacuate Commons | Metro News



> You might say that so far, Brexit negotiations have been a washout. But today it literally started pouring with water in the House of Commons due to a suspected burst pipe in the ceiling. The session has now been suspended and MPs have evacuated the space after reportedly trying to carry on talking over the flood.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 4, 2019)

That last line
*Mic drop*


----------



## maomao (Apr 4, 2019)

I thought Osbourne had fixed the roof while the sun was shining?


----------



## philosophical (Apr 4, 2019)

Was it Major who said it is better to have the bastards inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in?


----------



## editor (Apr 4, 2019)

I'm sure it's already been posted but it's worth a report. Click to read the whole thread.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2019)

editor said:


> I'm sure it's already been posted but it's worth a report. Click to read the whole thread.



That leaflet that nobody read is the best argument against this, I think. It laid out various alternatives to EU membership, one of which was explicitly the Norway model, and argued that none of the options was as good as what we have now. That was from the 'remain' govt. From the leave side, as blokey here points out, there was endless bullshit about 'easy' trade deals, pretty much all of which has turned out to be total bollocks. 

It's a fucking tiresome argument, tbh. Wankers claiming to speak for the minds of 17.4 million people on the basis of which box they put a cross in once in response to a very short, simple, detail-free question.


----------



## andysays (Apr 4, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's not strictly true. The govt and parliament can together avoid no deal by revoking. First, they should march off to the EU to request an extension with the solemn threat, expressed in the severest of terms, that they will abandon the whole thing if the EU turns them down.


The Cooper bill doesn't give government or parliament to authority to revoke A50 though, only to force the PM to ask for an extension .

For whatever reason (I can suggest a few if necessary), the Cooper bill stops well short of doing what you suggest.


----------



## Supine (Apr 4, 2019)

It's all kicking off on twatter


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 4, 2019)

These guys are _very _good


----------



## ska invita (Apr 4, 2019)

Well im very surprised but it is starting to look like May and Corbyn are genuinely doing a deal, doesnt it?


----------



## Supine (Apr 4, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Well im very surprised but it is starting to look like May and Corbyn are genuinely doing a deal, doesnt it?



Their positions on brexit are rather similar...


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 4, 2019)

Corybn has been quite a strict brexiter over the years


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 4, 2019)

Are you suggesting Corbyn is a hipster who was into Brexit before it became "a thing"?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 4, 2019)

Supine said:


> Their positions on brexit are rather similar...


Thats true to some extent, but their mps, party members and the wider public aren't exactly moving towards consensus

Im still reasoning on it not coming to anything, but who knows


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 4, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> These guys are _very _good


Aw, they did a whole little presentation.


----------



## Supine (Apr 4, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Are you suggesting Corbyn is a hipster who was into Brexit before it became "a thing"?



If the beard fits...


----------



## ska invita (Apr 4, 2019)

teqniq said:


> This is incredibly stupid imo, and has apparently been their policy for quite some time.
> Labour confirms it wants to end freedom of movement - LabourList


I dont understand how they whipped for CM2 just this week (which some people thought would win the indicative votes outright) and then underline that they are against freedom of movement so soon after.... ive been listening for signs of Labours Brexit position since the referendum and they continually contradict themselves, and that doesnt seem to have changed much in recent days.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 4, 2019)

Concerning the oh-so-friendly  chats between Labour and government, this appeared on BBC News site around 8:30 pm this evening (Thursday 4/4) : :




			
				BBC News said:
			
		

> Leaving the cross-party talks, *Sir Keir* did not answer questions about what had been discussed, telling reporters: "We have had further discussions and we will be having further discussions with the government."
> 
> A Labour spokesman said the talks "are continuing and the teams are planning to meet again".
> 
> ...



I'm seeing very _remainish_ names on both sides there ....  
I mean I'm something of a remainaholic myself, but I predict strong _counterreactions_ all over the shop ...

The stuff about detailed technical talks doesn't sound like these negotatations are about to collapse, either.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 4, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I dont understand how they whipped for CM2 just this week (which some people thought would win the indicative votes outright) and then underline that they are against freedom of movement so soon after.... ive been listening for signs of Labours Brexit position since the referendum and they continually contradict themselves, and that doesnt seem to have changed much in recent days.



It's 9-dimensional chess, apparently.


----------



## Wookey (Apr 4, 2019)

Uri Geller says he bent the pipes in Parliament, because the British people have been lied to..

The people have been lied to, said Uri Geller. 

Peak irony.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> It's 9-dimensional chess, apparently.


Noughts and Crosses. Nine squares, and no winner however many times you play.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2019)

Wookey said:


> Uri Geller says he bent the pipes in Parliament, because the British people have been lied to..
> 
> The people have been lied to, said Uri Geller.
> 
> Peak irony.


I looked that up. I ought to know better by now wrt brexit. It's all true!!!!


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 4, 2019)

Wookey said:


> Uri Geller says he bent the pipes in Parliament



i wonder if this bunch have the contract for plumbing emergencies at the HoC?


----------



## Wookey (Apr 5, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I looked that up. I ought to know better by now wrt brexit. It's all true!!!!



He's just been on LBC... He was fucking awesome! The great conning cunt that he is.


----------



## Libertad (Apr 5, 2019)

Wookey said:


> He's just been on LBC... He was fucking awesome! The great conning cunt that he is.



"I can't sack you but I can soak you" says the wanker.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 5, 2019)

May has written to the EU to request an extension to 30 June.

This is worse than my degree.


----------



## Libertad (Apr 5, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> May has written to the EU to request an extension to 30 June.
> 
> This is worse than my degree.



This is worse than my third degree.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 5, 2019)




----------



## Winot (Apr 5, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> May has written to the EU to request an extension to 30 June.
> 
> This is worse than my degree.



Just looking for political cover. She can then say oh look at the awful EU they have made me take a long extension.

They know it’s going to be a long extension. Cox and Hammond have already admitted that’s the way it’s going.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2019)

at some point the 52/48 of 2016 is going to look a little dated


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2019)

S☼I said:


> View attachment 166675


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2019)

S☼I said:


> View attachment 166675


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2019)

S☼I said:


> View attachment 166675



jrr tolkein


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 5, 2019)

We'll have a year extension and then have the shitfest of the Euro elections to look forward to.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 5, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> We'll have a year extension and then have the shitfest of the Euro elections to look forward to.



My workplace is used as a polling station, so it's a free day off for me.  Woot!


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 5, 2019)

That Withdrawal Agreement in full:



Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 166678
> jrr tolkein


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> at some point the 52/48 of 2016 is going to look a little dated



And yet 54-46 is still a tune after fifty years.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 5, 2019)

A long extension with us taking part  in the euro elections is exactly what the flagging leave electoral lot needs. It will be utter mayhem and further polarisation and deeper and broader delegitimisation for a full year. So yes please.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 5, 2019)

Rees mogg has changed his mind again and has finally realised we have a veto in the EU.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 5, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> A long extension with us taking part  in the euro elections is exactly what the flagging leave electoral lot needs. It will be utter mayhem and further polarisation and deeper and broader delegitimisation for a full year. So yes please.



Agree with all of that bar the last sentence.

I'm beginning to wonder if these couldn't-find-thier-arses-with-both-hands-MP's are in fact secret Anarchists bent on the destruction of parliamentary government...


----------



## newbie (Apr 5, 2019)

that funny noise is the sound of a gasket being blown at the torygraph


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 5, 2019)

newbie said:


> that funny noise is the sound of a gasket being blown at the torygraph
> View attachment 166682



Sherelle Jacobs hasn't got the boot for going on TV off her nut then.


----------



## newbie (Apr 5, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Sherelle Jacobs hasn't got the boot for going on TV off her nut then.


is that incident worth looking for, will it make me laugh?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 5, 2019)

newbie said:


> is that incident worth looking for, will it make me laugh?



Post #3521.

I was amused anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Post #3521.
> 
> I was amused anyway.


post 3521: BREXIT Crunch time (part 38) WTF is going to happen next?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 5, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Sherelle Jacobs hasn't got the boot for going on TV off her nut then.



It seems to be encouraged these days.


----------



## newbie (Apr 5, 2019)

oh yes, i remember.  I had no idea who the zombie was


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> post 3521: BREXIT Crunch time (part 38) WTF is going to happen next?



Keep expecting the sound to fade out and be replaced by 'hello darkness my old friend...'

Harrowing stuff.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 5, 2019)

On his Political betting blog, Mike Smithson makes the obvious, though possibly quite important, point that Ruth Jones' election last night gives Corbyn another Parliamentary vote.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 5, 2019)

brogdale said:


> On his Political betting blog, Mike Smithson makes the obvious, though possibly quite important, point that Ruth Jones' election last night gives Corbyn another Parliamentary vote.


With it being a hold, I’d forgotten it had actually been vacant for all these votes.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 5, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Agree with all of that bar the last sentence.
> 
> I'm beginning to wonder if these couldn't-find-thier-arses-with-both-hands-MP's are in fact secret Anarchists bent on the destruction of parliamentary government...


My instincts are to welcome the possibility of euro elections, largely as the theatre of the absurd. Could also get nasty - I'm just not sure whether it will be good nasty or bad nasty.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 5, 2019)

newbie said:


> that funny noise is the sound of a gasket being blown at the torygraph
> View attachment 166682


Yes, this little grouping of clickbaitery is particularly amusing...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> With it being a hold, I’d forgotten it had actually been vacant for all these votes.


Indeed, and in the tied vote it was the difference between winning and losing.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 5, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Keep expecting the sound to fade out and be replaced by 'hello darkness my old friend...'
> 
> Harrowing stuff.


Just checked some of her sober performances - not much better tbf ...


----------



## Winot (Apr 5, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yes, this little grouping of clickbaitery is particularly amusing...
> 
> View attachment 166698



Would that be ‘go nuclear’ with French power?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2019)

Wilf said:


> My instincts are to welcome the possibility of euro elections, largely as the theatre of the absurd. Could also get nasty - I'm just not sure whether it will be good nasty or bad nasty.


it will be nasty nasty


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 5, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> Rees mogg has changed his mind again and has finally realised we have a veto in the EU.



Almost as if he's been lying all along, funny that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2019)

a green and pleasant land that is doubtless all his as far as the eye can see


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 5, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> A long extension with us taking part  in the euro elections is exactly what the flagging leave electoral lot needs. It will be utter mayhem and further polarisation and deeper and broader delegitimisation for a full year. So yes please.



Yes, how much fun it will be for a very racist UKIP to achieve the 18% or more currently expected.

2019 European Parliament election in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

Brexit’s white awakening continues.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 5, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Yes, how much fun it will be for a very racist UKIP to achieve the 18% or more currently expected.
> 
> 2019 European Parliament election in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
> 
> Brexit’s white awakening continues.


What do you think i posted?


----------



## gosub (Apr 5, 2019)

Wilf said:


> My instincts are to welcome the possibility of euro elections, largely as the theatre of the absurd. Could also get nasty - I'm just not sure whether it will be good nasty or bad nasty.


Good luck to anyone cavasing in that.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 5, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> What do you think i posted?



I’m not suggesting you endorse all aspects of the chaos. I’m just writing what I am thinking.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 5, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Almost as if he's been lying all along, funny that.


I'm starting to think Mogg is even thicker than Johnson.
So much for "School" - which seems to be the basis of his Dunning Kruger ...


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 6, 2019)

so - mays talks with corbyn going nowhere what so ever because she refuses to  shift her position and it looks like it was another of her cunning tactical ploy. 
blimey! who saw that coming?

So I guess April 12th is the official day of crunch - assuming May cant get her deal through. 
She has until then to get a longer extension out of the EU - and that means she has to call a general election or have a 2nd ref. 
Or has she got another utterly futile, sideways manoeuvre in her box of despair?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 6, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> so - mays talks with corbyn going nowhere what so ever because she refuses to  shift her position and it looks like it was another of her cunning tactical ploy.
> blimey! who saw that coming?
> 
> So I guess April 12th is the official day of crunch - assuming May cant get her deal through.
> ...


This next then?


ska invita said:


> Most interest news of the day I think..(if it is) The next step
> 
> 
> 
> Who would win from that?


----------



## alsoknownas (Apr 6, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> Or has she got another utterly futile, sideways manoeuvre in her box of despair?


I think this is the bit that hints at where she wants to go with this:


> If the talks do not lead to a single unified approach soon, the Government would instead look to establish a consensus on a small number of clear options on the future relationship that could be put to the House in a series of votes to determine which course to pursue. The Government stands ready to abide by the decision of the House, if the Opposition will commit to doing the same.


I'm thinking that, emboldened by the indicative votes fiasco, she's thinking she can put May Deal up against softer options and win (MV4/IV3 if you like).  Labour talks just a sop.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 6, 2019)

It’s yet another blame dodging exercise.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 6, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> has she got another utterly futile, sideways manoeuvre in her box of despair?




I am always pleased to see prose like this on the boards. Well done.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> I think this is the bit that hints at where she wants to go with this:
> 
> I'm thinking that, emboldened by the indicative votes fiasco, she's thinking she can put May Deal up against softer options and win (MV4/IV3 if you like).  Labour talks just a sop.


Yeh corbo an obstacle to be overcome not a partner with whom to compromise


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 6, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It’s yet another blame dodging exercise.


I guess I’m obsessed. I read that as a “bame dogging” exercise, initially. Only for a second. And, yes, I know what it says about me.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 166700
> a green and pleasant land that is doubtless all his as far as the eye can see


What does it say about his constituents, that they elected him?

(Jacob Rees Mogg)


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> so - mays talks with corbyn going nowhere what so ever because she refuses to  shift her position and it looks like it was another of her cunning tactical ploy.
> blimey! who saw that coming?
> 
> So I guess April 12th is the official day of crunch - assuming May cant get her deal through.
> ...


I'm hoping for a top-down manoeuvre, perhaps from the top of suicide bridge to the surface of the a1


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2019)

weltweit said:


> What does it say about his constituents, that they elected him?
> 
> (Jacob Rees Mogg)


about 59.8% of his unhappy constituents either supported another candidate or did not vote


----------



## Duncan2 (Apr 6, 2019)

Not sure what is supposed to happen if Macron vetos any extension in circumstances where Parliament has legislated against leaving with no deal on 12th April?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> Not sure what is supposed to happen if Macron vetos any extension in circumstances where Parliament has legislated against leaving with no deal on 12th April?



Unless I missed something in all the chaos, Parliament hasn't legislated against leaving with no deal, that's still the default position and could still happen, especially if any extension is vetoed.


----------



## newbie (Apr 6, 2019)

weltweit said:


> What does it say about his constituents, that they elected him?
> 
> (Jacob Rees Mogg)


that they vote tory under all circumstances

My mate in Momentum spent a couple of years maneuvering towards deselecting Umunna and then went out canvassing for him in the last election.  It makes no sense to me but that's how it works.


----------



## Duncan2 (Apr 6, 2019)

oh my bad thought it had gone through the Commons by one vote and was currently festering in the Hof L


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> oh my bad thought it had gone through the Commons by one vote and was currently festering in the Hof L



You're thinking of the Yvette Cooper/Oliver Letwin bill, which would require the Maybot to request a further extension beyond 12 April, no deal could still happen especially if any extension is vetoed.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2019)

newbie said:


> that funny noise is the sound of a gasket being blown at the torygraph
> View attachment 166682




Is that all from one edition, pretty explosive


----------



## andysays (Apr 6, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> Not sure what is supposed to happen if Macron vetos any extension in circumstances where Parliament has legislated against leaving with no deal on 12th April?


If an extension is refused, we leave with no deal unless A50 is revoked altogether


----------



## newbie (Apr 6, 2019)

treelover said:


> Is that all from one edition, pretty explosive


yes.  They're currently offering:


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 6, 2019)

I have no intention of reading the frothing fool, but I love the presumed logic behind McVey's piece. The Marxist hard Left is plotting to keep the UK closely allied to or even, heaven forfend, still in the Communist conspiracy that is the European Union. And bringing down a good, patriotic British government, no doubt, the fiend.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 6, 2019)

It's ok everyone, they're all finally starting to get it. Plain sailing from here on...


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 6, 2019)

I like the way today the Mail and Express are pretending this Tory disaster isn’t happening, and are leading on other stories altogether. Nothing to see here.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 6, 2019)

He's on a roll atm...


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 6, 2019)

andysays said:


> If an extension is refused, we leave with no deal unless A50 is revoked altogether



Revoke would utterly fuck the Tories in a way No Deal doesn’t even come close.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 6, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Revoke would utterly fuck the Tories in a way No Deal doesn’t even come close.



Both would split them. That's the point.


----------



## FiFi (Apr 6, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Both would split them. That's the point.


Oh Dear. How sad. Never mind.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2019)

FiFi said:


> Oh Dear. How sad. Never mind.


Be careful what you wish for


----------



## FiFi (Apr 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Be careful what you wish for


Very true. But at this point there are no good options so we may as well laugh while we can!


----------



## brogdale (Apr 6, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Both would split them. That's the point.


It's even worse than that for the vermin; all 3 of the 2 options 'open' to them has the potential to split their party.


----------



## stdP (Apr 6, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Both would split them. That's the point.



I think at this point I think it might seem obvious to a lot of people that _anything_ would split them; wounds have been festering for 30+ years, the gangrene has set in and they're just performing random amputations to stave off the inevitable.

May would sooner instigate civil war than risk causing an even more obvious rift in the tory party though.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 6, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Both would split them. That's the point.


True but Revoke would do much less damage to everyone else


----------



## gosub (Apr 6, 2019)

Not had anyone round for the locals yet.  (Quite a bit of shit locally that is relevant to that election, and finally getting rid of the 2 incumbents (2 white Tory I have had had a go at though not about numeracy).

Be interesting to see, coz I think thems that think of Brexit what this needs is more public involvement is in for a shockl


----------



## stdP (Apr 6, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> True but Revoke would do much less damage to everyone else



...and why on earth would anyone and everyone else factor in to the equation?

There's a queue of scapegoats a mile long to pin blame on for the next decade; three years ago we were already hearing how remoaners and foreigners were somehow responsible for unbellyfeel Tinkerbell brexit not working; if and when the economic consequences become acutely dire you can fully expect a deluge of shit worthy of 1930's Germany to be thrown in all directions. TM is merely the first and most obvious target.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 6, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> True but Revoke would do much less damage to everyone else



Interesting assertion. I guess we'll find out.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 6, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Revoke would utterly fuck the Tories in a way No Deal doesn’t even come close.



No deal, not sufficiently so. 

Many Tories, especially the membership would be very happy with this. Short term turmoil, but the threat to them from UKIP and the Brexit Party would be over. Time for a new leader, positive about Brexit to lead with a mix of euphoric meeting the new dawn and pull ourselves together cos backs are to the wall.

It could have a similar dynamic to Thatcher v Foot.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 6, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Interesting assertion. I guess we'll find out.


By everyone else I was talking about ordinary people not politicians, As for parliamentary parties well I agree with you that there are no good options left for the 
Tories (behold all the fucks I give). I would suggest that more Tory voters will feel betrayed by Revoke than No Deal and the opposite way around for Labour.
The SNP will come out of covered in absolute glory if A50 gets revoked and will probably earn an "At Least they Tried" medal for anything else.
The DUP are just anarchists in it for the LOLS and don't give a shit and all other parties are as much spectators as we are.


----------



## Gerry1time (Apr 6, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> No deal, not sufficiently so.
> 
> Many Tories, especially the membership would be very happy with this. Short term turmoil, but the threat to them from UKIP and the Brexit Party would be over. Time for a new leader, positive about Brexit to lead with a mix of euphoric meeting the new dawn and pull ourselves together cos backs are to the wall.



In a way though, there’s a risk even no deal doesn’t end the argument. Unless the new Tory leader wants the UK to sit in splendid isolation by itself, they’re going to have to agree a new trade deal with Europe. Who will sit there saying the same things they’ve been saying to us over the last three years. At which point, to agree something, the arguments have to start again.

Essentially the Tory party is arguing over fantasies, it has been for decades, and I doubt those sorts of arguments are ever truly resolvable. Else ‘the natural party of government’ as they term themselves would have resolved them by now.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 7, 2019)

After the UK has finally Brexited (if indeed it does), will all the nationalists and little Englanders demand another referendum to exit... the rest of the world?


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 7, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> In a way though, there’s a risk even no deal doesn’t end the argument. Unless the new Tory leader wants the UK to sit in splendid isolation by itself, they’re going to have to agree a new trade deal with Europe. Who will sit there saying the same things they’ve been saying to us over the last three years. At which point, to agree something, the arguments have to start again.
> 
> (...)



I suspect they’ll be wanting their 39 billion quid for starters.

Anyone fooled into thinking that this will calm down once a deal or no deal situation has happened will be very disappointed, we have years of this shit ahead of us.


----------



## Winot (Apr 7, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> After the UK has finally Brexited (if indeed it does), will all the nationalists and little Englanders demand another referendum to exit... the rest of the world?



English Parliament next.


----------



## andysays (Apr 7, 2019)

A deal is no nearer, and May has further internal trouble - perfect:

Brexit: I had no choice but to approach Labour - May


> Prime Minister Theresa May has insisted she had to reach out to Labour in a bid to deliver Brexit or risk letting it "slip through our fingers". In a statement on Saturday night, Mrs May said there was a "stark choice" of either leaving the European Union with a deal or not leaving at all.
> 
> Some Conservatives have criticised her for seeking Labour's help after MPs rejected her Brexit plan three times. Three days of talks between the parties ended without agreement on Friday.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 7, 2019)

Winot said:


> English Parliament next.



It might become an English and Welsh Parliament without a lot of further effort from Little Englanders.


----------



## binka (Apr 7, 2019)

I hate resurrecting an old argument as much as anyone _however_ on this occasion I'm willing to make an exception...

This from a digital marketing agency in Manchester


The Article 50 Petition HAS been hijacked by bots.



> The petition to revoke Article 50 has received millions of signatures. It looked pretty obvious to us that it was being gamed by bots to make false political capital, thereby seriously devaluing the UK Government’s platform for digital democracy. So we tested it for ourselves.  In a single weekend, using just one spare server and with a budget of £22, we were able to make 72,000 confirmed robotic entries. Imagine if we’d put any real effort and resources into it!


----------



## Cid (Apr 7, 2019)

binka said:


> I hate resurrecting an old argument as much as anyone _however_ on this occasion I'm willing to make an exception...
> 
> This from a digital marketing agency in Manchester
> 
> ...



That guy gives bono a run for his money in the ‘punchable face’ stakes.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 7, 2019)

binka said:


> I hate resurrecting an old argument as much as anyone _however_ on this occasion I'm willing to make an exception...
> 
> This from a digital marketing agency in Manchester
> 
> ...



What an utterly stupid thing to do. If they have evidence that there are bots then make it public rather than torpedo the petition. 

There is little doubt it is a very popular petition, not in itself that compelling set against the 17.4, but there you go.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 7, 2019)

> And, just for the sake of full transparency, we do believe as an agency that Brexit will be a huge driver of progress for UK business, economy, politics and society. So we would hate to see fraudulent poll results being generated and then used to make false claims of legitimacy for opposition to Brexit.


But in favour of Brexit is fine


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 7, 2019)

Pretty clear agenda to that piece of 'research'. Even if there are some dodgy signatures I don't doubt it's a very popular petition and most of the signatures will be genuine. 

They're the pro brexit answer to the Russian trolls/bots/everyone voted brexit cos they got a racist text.


----------



## alex_ (Apr 7, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Pretty clear agenda to that piece of 'research'. Even if there are some dodgy signatures I don't doubt it's a very popular petition and most of the signatures will be genuine.
> 
> They're the pro brexit answer to the Russian trolls/bots/everyone voted brexit cos they got a racist text.



The signatures generated will all be on the same email domain from the same source IP address, they’ll be ridiculously easy to spot.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 7, 2019)

They only got half a million on the rival petition - which I thing was no deal.
I found it interesting in terms of how much real enthusiasm there was in either camp.

It remains to be seen whether the "one million *man* march" happens on 12th April...


----------



## mauvais (Apr 7, 2019)

alex_ said:


> The signatures generated will all be on the same email domain from the same source IP address, they’ll be ridiculously easy to spot.


Not that this is worth exploring in any detail, but it would be easy to avoid both.


----------



## newbie (Apr 7, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> In a way though, there’s a risk even no deal doesn’t end the argument. Unless the new Tory leader wants the UK to sit in splendid isolation by itself, they’re going to have to agree a new trade deal with Europe. Who will sit there saying the same things they’ve been saying to us over the last three years. At which point, to agree something, the arguments have to start again.


There will also have to be a trade agreement with the US, probably to be negotiated during the MAGA era.  That's when we'll find out what what this is all leading towards.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Apr 7, 2019)

Jade Azim...journalist speaking on sky news just came out with this as if it was gospel. And the interviewer let her off....

"There's an increase in hard right in the European *parliament*"

What the fuck?

Mind you ... she also used the phrase "more lesser"...


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 7, 2019)

Lupa said:


> Jade Azim...journalist speaking on sky news just came out with this as if it was gospel. And the interviewer let her off....
> 
> "There's an increase in hard right in the European *parliament*"
> 
> ...



Well that is true. The European Parliament is a play ground for the far right, it's full of them. Will be even more so after the next EU Parliament elections.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Apr 7, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Well that is true. The European Parliament is a play ground for the far right, it's full of them. Will be even more so after the next EU Parliament elections.



How far right are you talking?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 7, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> By everyone else I was talking about ordinary people not politicians, As for parliamentary parties well I agree with you that there are no good options left for the
> Tories (behold all the fucks I give). I would suggest that more Tory voters will feel betrayed by Revoke than No Deal and the opposite way around for Labour.
> The SNP will come out of covered in absolute glory if A50 gets revoked and will probably earn an "At Least they Tried" medal for anything else.
> The DUP are just anarchists in it for the LOLS and don't give a shit and all other parties are as much spectators as we are.



Yeah, I also meant ordinary people. You seem to think that what will happen as a result of revoking A50 won't have a hugely damaging effect on ordinary people, I suspect you are completely wrong.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2019)

Lupa said:


> Jade Azim...journalist speaking on sky news just came out with this as if it was gospel. And the interviewer let her off....
> 
> "There's an increase in hard right in the European *parliament*"
> 
> What the fuck?


What's the problem here?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 7, 2019)

Lupa said:


> How far right are you talking?



Well, there's lots of right wing populist types, and there's quite a few actual fascists as well. How far right are you talking? 

The Front National have 24 MEP's, the Alternative für Deutschland have 7 and will massively increase that this year. Fidesz (Orban's party) have 11 MEP's.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Apr 7, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Well, there's lots of right wing populist types, and there's quite a few actual fascists as well. How far right are you talking?
> 
> The Front National have 24 MEP's, the Alternative für Deutschland have 7 and will massively increase that this year. Fidesz (Orban's party) have 11 MEP's.



I was quoting Jade Azim who stated that there was an increase in the Hard Right in the European Parliament. 
I thought the EP was a majority of centrist left and centrist right.

Just wondered what hard right parties are about to take over...?


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Apr 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> What's the problem here?



Is it true? Has there been an increase in hard right elected members in the EP?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 7, 2019)

Lupa said:


> I was quoting Jade Azim who stated that there was an increase in the Hard Right in the European Parliament.
> I thought the EP was a majority of centrist left and centrist right.
> 
> Just wondered what hard right parties are about to take over...?



No, not really - majority are right, whether you call them centrist right or very right probably depends on whether you think the Tories are centrist right or hard right. 




Lupa said:


> Is it true? Has there been an increase in hard right elected members in the EP?



Yes. Massively. And the trend will continue.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2019)

Lupa said:


> Is it true? Has there been an increase in hard right elected members in the EP?


Yes. Sort of thing you could/should have checked before posting really.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 7, 2019)

In Ireland the Blueshirts have the most MEP's, closely followed by the Shinners.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Yes. Sort of thing you could/should have checked before posting really.



Ahhh sure if people checked before posting we wouldn't have any fun at all would we?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 7, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> The stuff about detailed technical talks doesn't sound like these negotatations are about to collapse, either.



I've been thinking about this a bit but I've started to suspect they both keep saying they're having very technical discussions as a means of avoiding telling anyone what they're actually talking about.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Apr 7, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> In Ireland the Blueshirts have the most MEP's, closely followed by the Shinners.




The Shinners? Sinn Fein you mean? They have 3 seats. They're centre left....never have been right wing. 
The blue shirts? Are you referring to Fine Gael? They have 4 seats...centre right. 

What's that got to do with some journalist stating that the European parliament was becoming more hard right?


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Apr 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Yes. Sort of thing you could/should have checked before posting really.



I'm asking because the current EP had a majority of centrist parties...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2019)

Lupa said:


> I'm asking because the current EP had a majority of centrist parties...


You're _asking_ because you think the idea of the europan parliament having far righters in it is absurd. So absurd that it's worthy of mention as a brexiteers mad imagination. Yet now you find that there are indeed far-righters in it. Now what? What questions are you now asking yourself?


----------



## xenon (Apr 7, 2019)

Lupa said:


> Is it true? Has there been an increase in hard right elected members in the EP?


Yep. Have you missed this. The rise of populist rightwing politics across Europe? Austrian Freedom Party, AFD, 5 Star movement, Hungary?


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Apr 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You're _asking_ because you think the idea of the europan parliament having far righters in it is absurd. So absurd that it's worthy of mention as a brexiteers mad imagination. Yet now you find that there are indeed far-righters in it. Now what? What questions are you now asking yourself?




I'm asking because this was said by a journalist. 



Lupa said:


> "There's an increase in hard right in the European *parliament*"



... the breakdown of the EP is currently a majority of centrist parties. They're holding at the moment. 
I'm just very surprised that she was adamant that the hard right was currently that strong...seeing as it's all still to play for?  It's as if she sees it as a fait accompli...when there has not been an election yet.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Apr 7, 2019)

xenon said:


> Yep. Have you missed this. The rise of populist rightwing politics across Europe? Austrian Freedom Party, AFD, 5 Star movement, Hungary?



How many EP members are far right? I'm  genuinely interested. I didn't think they were that strong in parliament...


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 7, 2019)

Lupa said:


> The Shinners? Sinn Fein you mean? They have 3 seats. They're centre left....never have been right wing.
> The blue shirts? Are you referring to Fine Gael? They have 4 seats...centre right.
> 
> What's that got to do with some journalist stating that the European parliament was becoming more hard right?



I think the Blue Shirts are just as reactionary as the Tories are - you think the Tories are hard right don't you? You wouldn't call them centre right would you? 

Calling the Shinners centre left is nonsense to me, but I don't suppose we will agree on that. 




Lupa said:


> the breakdown of the EP is currently a majority of centrist parties. They're holding at the moment.
> I'm just very surprised that she was adamant that the hard right was currently that strong...seeing as it's all still to play for?  It's as if she sees it as a fait accompli...when there has not been an election yet.



That's a very right wing conception of centrism.


----------



## andysays (Apr 7, 2019)

Lupa said:


> I'm asking because this was said by a journalist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An increase doesn't mean they are now in the majority, it means the number of far-right MEPs is greater now than at some point in the past.


----------



## Libertad (Apr 7, 2019)

xenon said:


> Yep. Have you missed this. The rise of populist rightwing politics across Europe? Austrian Freedom Party, AFD, 5 Star movement, Hungary?



You can add Vox to that list as well.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Apr 7, 2019)

andysays said:


> An increase doesn't mean they are now in the majority, it means the number of far-right MEPs is greater now than at some point in the past.



That's what I thought. 
Thanks.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 7, 2019)

Lupa said:


> That's what I thought.
> Thanks.



Although actually, around 370 MEP's are in groupings you'd probably consider hard right. And a majority would be 376. Add the AfD who are independent of any grouping and yeah, it's a majority.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 7, 2019)

Libertad said:


> You can add Vox to that list as well.



known as 'people we can work with' to shiny moderates in ciudadanos.


----------



## chilango (Apr 7, 2019)

The group led by Farage has 42 MEPs.

The group led by Le Pen has 37 MEPs.

...and there's over a dozen far-righters (incl.overt neo-Nazis) not in either.


That's over 90 out of 750.

Plus much of the 74 strong bloc the Tories are in are pretty far to the right to me.

That seems like "a lot" to me.

European Parliament - Wikipedia


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 7, 2019)

And I think it would be a better fair bet that that number is going to increase after 22nd May


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Apr 8, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Well, there's lots of right wing populist types, and there's quite a few actual fascists as well. How far right are you talking?
> 
> The Front National have 24 MEP's, the Alternative für Deutschland have 7 and will massively increase that this year. Fidesz (Orban's party) have 11 MEP's.



It's not just Fidesz you have to worry about in Hungary. Fidesz are have been around for ages and are considered right wing round these parts but not far right.  PiS here in Poland are further right than Fidesz.

Look out for "Jobbik" in Hungary. They are the proper fash and they got an astonishing amount of votes considering.

But, yes, certainly for MEPs the trend across all of Europe is to the far right.. and that's because the far right spend all their time campaigning for MEP selection. The rest of the in-power parties are more worried about general elections. Basically they are sleeping.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 8, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> It's not just Fidesz you have to worry about in Hungary. Fidesz are have been around for ages and are considered right wing round these parts but not far right.  PiS here in Poland are further right than Fidesz.
> 
> Look out for "Jobbik" in Hungary. They are the proper fash and they got an astonishing amount of votes considering.
> 
> But, yes, certainly for MEPs the trend across all of Europe is to the far right.. and that's because the far right spend all their time campaigning for MEP selection. The rest of the in-power parties are more worried about general elections. Basically they are sleeping.



Yes indeed, I'm sure Jobbik and PiS will be represented in the European Parliament soon if they're no already.

I wish the far right did spend all its time on Euro elections though, they organise quite a lot of demos in South Yorkshire where I live, although thankfully they're a lot smaller than they were. I think there actually might be other reasons anti-EU parties do quite well in Euro elections though, don't you? Why is it pro-EU parties can win general elections but often not European elections do you think?


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 8, 2019)

The hard right certainly doesn't spend all it's time campaigning for EU elections - it's currently in power in Hungry, in Italy, is the second largest party in the Netherlands, got through to the run off or the French presidency and did very well in the last years elections in Sweden.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 8, 2019)

In case anyone is interested in group level polling. https://www.politico.eu/interactive/european-elections-2019-poll-of-polls/


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 8, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I think the Blue Shirts are just as reactionary as the Tories are - you think the Tories are hard right don't you? You wouldn't call them centre right would you?
> 
> Calling the Shinners centre left is nonsense to me, but I don't suppose we will agree on that.
> 
> ...


The Shinners will cleave leftward for as long as it suits them to do so, and that means having something on their left flank - the Trots for all their obvious flaws provide that, as do the extraparliamentary social movements.

There was a time long, long ago when FF was considered centre-left: as you know, things evolved in a substantially different direction. But Irish society is not quite what it was in FF's early days, so there's no need to assume that SF must inevitably follow the FF path, even if that is one possible outcome.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 8, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> The Shinners will cleave leftward for as long as it suits them to do so, and that means having something on their left flank - the Trots for all their obvious flaws provide that, as do the extraparliamentary social movements.
> 
> There was a time long, long ago when FF was considered centre-left: as you know, things evolved in a substantially different direction. But Irish society is not quite what it was in FF's early days, so there's no need to assume that SF must inevitably follow the FF path, even if that is one possible outcome.



Thanks for the grudging admission of the positive role played by Trots 

Agreed, I just don't think it makes any sense to call an inherently sectarian and reactionary nationalist party centre left.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Yes indeed, I'm sure Jobbik and PiS will be represented in the European Parliament soon if they're no already.
> 
> I wish the far right did spend all its time on Euro elections though, they organise quite a lot of demos in South Yorkshire where I live, although thankfully they're a lot smaller than they were. I think there actually might be other reasons anti-EU parties do quite well in Euro elections though, don't you? Why is it pro-EU parties can win general elections but often not European elections do you think?


stv


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 8, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Thanks for the grudging admission of the positive role played by Trots
> 
> Agreed, I just don't think it makes any sense to call an inherently sectarian and reactionary nationalist party centre left.


If I was a republican I'd start talking about the inheritance of Wolfe Tone and all the delirium of the grave. I'm not so I won't, but I will say that sectarian reaction is not the only thing inherent in Irish nationalism.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 8, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> If I was a republican I'd start talking about the inheritance of Wolfe Tone and all the delirium of the grave. I'm not so I won't, but I will say that sectarian reaction is not the only thing inherent in Irish nationalism.



Of course not. But it's definitely present. I don't think you can say that Sinn Fein are a similar party to the centre left Socialist Party in France for example.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> stv



Hardly the key reason is it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Hardly the key reason is it?


you asked for 'other reasons' for for 'the key reason'


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you asked for 'other reasons' for for 'the key reason'



Well, you've got me there. But I think that anti-EU right wing populist parties would do pretty well in European elections regardless of the voting system in place. Would you agree?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Well, you've got me there. But I think that anti-EU right wing populist parties would do pretty well in European elections regardless of the voting system in place. Would you agree?


probably not tbh but not definitely, just probably


----------



## extra dry (Apr 8, 2019)

No one spotted leaking pipe washes out debates.

I work with a group of people, who are from around the world, all stunned by the polico doubletalk and lies


----------



## extra dry (Apr 8, 2019)

People would do well to stop prentending that the undesirable parties of Europe are about, at worse win a few marginal seats, hopefully their ideology won't grow ever bigger.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 9, 2019)

There could just as likely be an anti-brexit mobilisation in the UK around the euro elections, we’ve already seen the six million strong petition, and there’s some fairly effective campaigners out there like the led by donkeys lot that can draw in crowd funding (although tragically I can see them singing for the Lib Dems or tinge). Motivation to vote is critical, some Brexit supporters might boycott the elections in principle, or just feel jaded by the lack of political progress generally and fuck it off.

Labour’s success will depend on whether May succeeds with the current talks aimed at nailing a Labour logo on Brexit, as appearing to back even a soft Brexit-in-name-only will hit their core metropolitan vote.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 9, 2019)

Got some really disgusting shitey areas in the south west that let in some truly disgusting characters.
My own bit of Bristol is solid labour in parliament and was 70/30 in the referendum .. I 
don't seem to be able to find what the local turnouts were for the Euros ...

EDIT:- 

I'm thinking out loud about where, geographically the effort needs to be put in - as in these BNP candidates live somewhere and presumably get local votes even though it's an EU election - and we have no other way to tell where their vote came from.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 9, 2019)

Damn those _disgusting areas,_ why won't they vote for the right people!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Damn those _disgusting areas,_ why won't they vote for the right people!


near enough they are, voting for the right wing people anyway


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 9, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> Got some really disgusting shitey areas in the south west that let in some truly disgusting characters.



Fuck you.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 9, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Fuck you.


Wtf are you smoking so early in the day ?


----------



## chilango (Apr 9, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> ). Motivation to vote is critical, some Brexit supporters might boycott the elections in principle, or just feel jaded by the lack of political progress generally and fuck it off.
> .



My parents, hard-core Brexiteers, who _always_ vote say they'll spoil.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 9, 2019)

chilango said:


> My parents, hard-core Brexiteers, who _always_ vote say they'll spoil.


Jus in the (possible) euro or in the council too?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 9, 2019)

chilango said:


> My parents, hard-core Brexiteers, who _always_ vote say they'll spoil.


A trend we can all get behind? Voluntary disenfranchisement by the older demographic can only be a good thing.

_Take back control; spoil your own ballot _


----------



## andysays (Apr 9, 2019)

chilango said:


> My parents, hard-core Brexiteers, who _always_ vote say they'll spoil.


Spunking cock?


----------



## alsoknownas (Apr 9, 2019)

andysays said:


> Spunking cock?


Likely to be elderly with reduced ejaculate function, but I really think we should keep this to Brexit related stuff.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

chilango said:


> My parents, hard-core Brexiteers, who _always_ vote say they'll spoil.


they promise so much but rarely deliver?


----------



## gosub (Apr 9, 2019)

brogdale said:


> A trend we can all get behind? Voluntary disenfranchisement by the older demographic can only be a good thing.
> 
> _Take back control; spoil your own ballot _


Logans run here we come.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 9, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Damn those _disgusting areas,_ why won't they vote for the right people!



You are right. No one should criticise the voters of Chipping Norton or Ascot who vote time and again to give a solid up yours Delors to ‘the Man’.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

gosub said:


> Loans run here we come.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 9, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> Got some really disgusting shitey areas in the south west that let in some truly disgusting characters.
> My own bit of Bristol is solid labour in parliament and was 70/30 in the referendum .. I
> don't seem to be able to find what the local turnouts were for the Euros ...
> 
> ...



Unfortunate generalisation to say the least though. Even areas that vote for bad characters are just made up of people. It’s not like most people vote in Council or EU elections.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 9, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> Got some really disgusting shitey areas in the south west that let in some truly disgusting characters.
> My own bit of Bristol is solid labour in parliament and was 70/30 in the referendum .. I
> don't seem to be able to find what the local turnouts were for the Euros ...
> 
> ...


Care to explain the underlined?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> Got some really disgusting shitey areas in the south west that let in some truly disgusting characters.
> My own bit of Bristol is solid labour in parliament and was 70/30 in the referendum .. I
> don't seem to be able to find what the local turnouts were for the Euros ...
> 
> ...


Do you think that says that BNP candidates were elected there or something? It says they got 10 000 votes out of 1 and a half million (0.7%) and not one of them were elected.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 9, 2019)

Back to English lit:


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 9, 2019)

What a total hat job.  Least it wasn't charge of the light brigade I suppose.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 9, 2019)

Is that a fucking picture of Thatcher on his little podium there?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 9, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Is that a fucking picture of Thatcher on his little podium there?


Apologies.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 9, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> You are right. No one should criticise the voters of Chipping Norton or Ascot





Mr Moose said:


> Unfortunate generalisation to say the least though. Even areas that vote for bad characters are just made up of people



make your mind up


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 9, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Back to English lit:




Hilarious. Hilarious.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 9, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> make up your mind



I did. You can’t say an area is a shitty area or people are shytey. But it’s not a good look for places that return barstewards and if you vote that way expect it’s laid at your door.

My bad for not making it one post, but they are not exclusive.


----------



## Old Spark (Apr 9, 2019)

Seems we will be offered an extension to end of 2019 .EU know May is a gonna around that time.

Can go two ways-Customs arrangement with confirmatory referendum backed by Government and Labour or new Tory leader going for no deal if domestic talks fail.

Former can pass westminster but could fall in confirmatory referendum-ERG,Brexit party ,Ukip,Tommy saying tell them again.

New tory leader going for no deal calls general election if it wont pass westminster.

General election may not change parliamentary arithmetic much but woukd be followed by demand for new scottish referendum.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 9, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Is that a fucking picture of Thatcher on his little podium there?



A black framed photograph, in memoriam. Why doesn’t he just join her voluntarily?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 9, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> I did. You can’t say an area is a shitty area or people are shytey. But it’s not a good look for places that return barstewards and if you vote that way expect it’s laid at your door.
> 
> My bad for not making it one post, but they are not exclusive.


sorry, looks like you are a bit confused here. Where did Redsquirrel say anything that you have implied, and gone on to 'correct'? did redsquirrel say that everybody is free from all criticism or is that your misreading (it s your misreading). 

anyway, sideshow. Back to laughing at francois.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 9, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> A black framed photograph, in memoriam. Why doesn’t he just join her voluntarily?



Or stand barefoot on a three pin plug repeatedly.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 9, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> A black framed photograph, in memoriam. Why doesn’t he just join her voluntarily?



If the Paras in Kabul need something new for target practice...

(And once they’ve finished with Francois they could use the thatcher picture too)


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 9, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> sorry, looks like you are a bit confused here. Where did Redsquirrel say anything that you have implied, and gone on to 'correct'? did redsquirrel say that everybody is free from all criticism or is that your misreading (it s your misreading).
> 
> anyway, sideshow. Back to laughing at francois.



I’m pulling his furry leg.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 9, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Hilarious. Hilarious.


Thank you, I wasn't sure you'd find it funny.


----------



## gosub (Apr 9, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Hilarious. Hilarious.



Charge of the Light Brigade would have been more apt


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

gosub said:


> Logans run here we come.


you've edited and now my post looks silly


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 9, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Thank you, I wasn't sure you'd find it funny.



Not you. Him.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 9, 2019)

Old Spark said:


> Seems we will be offered an extension to end of 2019 .EU know May is a gonna around that time.
> 
> Can go two ways-Customs arrangement with confirmatory referendum backed by Government and Labour or new Tory leader going for no deal if domestic talks fail.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to work out what being offered and accepting an extension till Dec 31st implies. Does it mean the current plan of 'Lab and Con meeting > if that fails going back to more indicative votes' falls? Certainly a 9 month delay provides times for everything and nothing to happen, from 2nd ref through to new tory leader and gen election.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 9, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'm trying to work out what being offered and accepting an extension till Dec 31st implies. Does it mean the current plan of 'Lab and Con meeting > if that fails going back to more indicative votes' falls? Certainly a 9 month delay provides times for everything and nothing to happen, from 2nd ref through to new tory leader and gen election.


Sensible thing to happen would be for the current govt to admit failure and call a general election. 

So I guess they'll try to do anything other than that.


----------



## andysays (Apr 9, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sensible thing to happen would be for the current govt to admit failure and call a general election.
> 
> So I guess they'll try to do anything other than that.


Sensible how and for whom?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 9, 2019)

Tories are so incompetent that even if it gets to Men In Grey Suits time, they will probably get the wrong house and evict the tenant of 11 Downing Street.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 9, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Tories are so incompetent that even if it gets to Men In Grey Suits time, they will probably get the wrong house and evict the tenant of 11 Downing Street.



Or, worst, the no. 10 cat.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 9, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Or, worst, the no. 10 cat.


They could have a go at Assange.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 9, 2019)

I’m waiting to see Perfidious Albion step onto the pitch.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 9, 2019)

andysays said:


> Sensible how and for whom?


Seems sensible for a govt that cannot govern to seek an election.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 9, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I’m waiting to see Perfidious Albion step onto the pitch.


Fans drinking pints of St Crispin's Ale in the stands. 

Actually, there should be a line of Brexit branded beers:

'Drink 52% - guaranteed free movement!'
Old Barnier's Backstop
mv4 IPA


----------



## Cid (Apr 9, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Seems sensible for a govt that cannot govern to seek an election.



Only if there’s a likelihood of a government more capable of governing being elected.


----------



## andysays (Apr 9, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Seems sensible for a govt that cannot govern to seek an election.





andysays said:


> Sensible how and for whom?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Seems sensible for a govt that cannot govern to seek an election.


yeh that's really on the cards 

2/3 majority of hoc to get a ge, in't it. do you think the tory party would let may go for what promises to be an even more disastrous election than the last one?


----------



## gosub (Apr 9, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Seems sensible for a govt that cannot govern to seek an election.


So that's that option junked.


If she barricades herself in Number 10 for a couple of months, she will have lasted longer than Brown. Which seems like an absurd set of motivations so I'd give that 3/2


----------



## andysays (Apr 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh that's really on the cards
> 
> 2/3 majority of hoc to get a ge, in't it. do you think the tory party would let may go for what promises to be an even more disastrous election than the last one?


"Sensible"...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

Cid said:


> Only if there’s a likelihood of a government more capable of governing being elected.


yeh and there's where lbj's plot falls down. we haven't really had a government capable of governing since 2010, it's all be a drift since then. not that brown was grand, he wasn't. but he could get stuff through parliament which is more than the current shower can.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 9, 2019)

Cid said:


> Only if there’s a likelihood of a government more capable of governing being elected.


This govt can't govern. It can't get through the only thing it's really every tried to do. Thats all that can be known right now. Who knows what a new govt would be like or able to do? In the system here, having an election is the mechanism by which you find out.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 9, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Seems sensible for a govt that cannot govern to seek an election.


May's position has gone from weak to an outright joke since the 2017 election. Strange thing is, even though she seems utterly unable to do the one things for which she was elected, the forces arraigned against her, particularly in her own party, leave her in office. We'll see what the reaction is if we end up taking the 9 month extension, particularly if there are conditions about good behaviour attached. That really should be the point where brexiteers resign from the cabinet and other ministerial roles. But they do seem particularly shit at moving against her.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 9, 2019)

andysays said:


> "Sensible"...


Sensible in the context of the system in this country, yes. Sensible for a government that cannot govern to call an election in this system. But no doubt you've made up a bunch of stuff I didn't say to accuse me of.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

Wilf said:


> But they do seem particularly shit at moving against her.


even our plotters are a national disgrace


----------



## gosub (Apr 9, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sensible in the context of the system in this country, yes. Sensible for a government that cannot govern to call an election in this system. But no doubt you've made up a bunch of stuff I didn't say to accuse me of.


You have to have sense to do sensible things


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 9, 2019)

Wilf said:


> May's position has gone from weak to an outright joke since the 2017 election. Strange thing is, even though she seems utterly unable to do the one things for which she was elected, the forces arraigned against her, particularly in her own party, leave her in office. We'll see what the reaction is if we end up taking the 9 month extension, particularly if there are conditions about good behaviour attached. That really should be the point where brexiteers resign from the cabinet and other ministerial roles. But they do seem particularly shit at moving against her.


It ought to be, yes. I can't see how May survives, but then I've been saying that for a while.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> even our plotters are a national disgrace


We probably need to improve the standard of Henchmen in this country. Maybe set up an FE qualification for them or a national registration scheme.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

Wilf said:


> We probably need to improve the standard of Henchmen in this country. Maybe set up an FE qualification for them or a national registration scheme.


the current self-regulation certainly isn't working


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> even our plotters are a national disgrace



A tradition dating back to Guy Fawkes.


----------



## Cid (Apr 9, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This govt can't govern. It can't get through the only thing it's really every tried to do. Thats all that can be known right now. Who knows what a new govt would be like or able to do? In the system here, having an election is the mechanism by which you find out.



It is very likely to result in a hung parliament or slim majority. Even with a majority there’s the internal factional problems that would absolutely continue to make it difficult to pass legislation. In that context it makes complete sense to have cross party talks, with potential further referendum. 

I think May is an appalling choice to do this of course, I mean it should have been on the cards from mv1, if not the election. But it does make sense to an extent.


----------



## andysays (Apr 9, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sensible in the context of the system in this country, yes. Sensible for a government that cannot govern to call an election in this system. But no doubt you've made up a bunch of stuff I didn't say to accuse me of.


I'm just asking you to expand on your assertion than it would be sensible for the government to seek an election. 

Sensible how and for whom?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

andysays said:


> I'm just asking you to expand on your assertion than it would be sensible for the government to seek an election.
> 
> Sensible how and for whom?


he's not being as liberal with his answers as he is with his politics.


----------



## gosub (Apr 9, 2019)

andysays said:


> I'm just asking you to expand on your assertion than it would be sensible for the government to seek an election.
> 
> Sensible how and for whom?


Could just change the locks while she's out of town today


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 9, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Fans drinking pints of St Crispin's Ale in the stands.
> 
> Actually, there should be a line of Brexit branded beers:
> 
> ...



A quart of Democracy’s Downfall barkeep.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 9, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> A quart of Democracy’s Downfall barkeep.


Pint of Doom Barnier.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> even our plotters are a national disgrace



And the only plots Corbyn takes notice of have carrots and onions in them.


----------



## chilango (Apr 9, 2019)

andysays said:


> Spunking cock?



No. Sadly. Diatribes about Brexit.


----------



## chilango (Apr 9, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Jus in the (possible) euro or in the council too?



Euros


----------



## andysays (Apr 9, 2019)

Brexit: Donald Tusk suggests "flexible" delay of up to a year



> European Council president Donald Tusk has suggested offering the UK a "flexible" extension to Brexit of up to a year, with the option of leaving earlier if a deal is ratified. *He said there was "little reason to believe" a Brexit deal would be approved by the extension deadline UK PM Theresa May has requested - 30 June*. Writing to EU leaders, he said any delay should have conditions attached.



Statement of the bleedin' obvious...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

andysays said:


> Brexit: Donald Tusk suggests "flexible" delay of up to a year
> 
> 
> 
> Statement of the bleedin' obvious...


Au contraire, if we can still say that. By 30 June 2935 I think things will have been worked out


----------



## Cid (Apr 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Au contraire, if we can still say that. By 30 June 2935 I think things will have been worked out



And, finally, May will be laid to rest.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Au contraire, if we can still say that. By 30 June 2935 I think things will have been worked out



You’ve always been a glass half full kind of fella


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You’ve always been a glass half full kind of fella


Half a glass of my arsenic root beer should do for may


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 9, 2019)

andysays said:


> Brexit: Donald Tusk suggests "flexible" delay of up to a year
> 
> 
> 
> Statement of the bleedin' obvious...


It doesn't matter how long a delay he gives her, She will waste all but the last week of it trying to get "her" Deal through, it's going to be like Groundhog Day the same damn thing over and over again, unless something external happens to change the HoC arithmetic then this Mexican standoff will continue.
I have this mental vision of Tusk frantically mouthing "Tell Her I'm Not In" every time his secretary picks up the phone.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 9, 2019)

I seriously think May has convinced herself that any day now Bobby Ewing will step out of the shower.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 9, 2019)

There is a meme on FB that I can't copy and paste, but it reads

"The year is 3029, and Parliament enacts the weekly ritual of voting down "Theresa May's Deal".  The origins of this archaic rite are lost in time".  (Pinched off The Tiger Lillies).


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> It doesn't matter how long a delay he gives her, She will waste all but the last week of it trying to get "her" Deal through, it's going to be like Groundhog Day the same damn thing over and over again, unless something external happens to change the HoC arithmetic then this Mexican standoff will continue.
> I have this mental vision of Tusk frantically mouthing "Tell Her I'm Not In" every time his secretary picks up the phone.


Feed may to the groundhogs


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I seriously think May has convinced herself that any day now Bobby Ewing will step out of the shower.


She's confusing scenes from dallas and psycho


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> She's confusing scenes from dallas and psycho



Well I will always associate her with a shower forever now.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 9, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Well I will always associate her with a shower forever now.



i already do


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 9, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i already do



My inference too.


----------



## Winot (Apr 9, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> It doesn't matter how long a delay he gives her, She will waste all but the last week of it trying to get "her" Deal through, it's going to be like Groundhog Day the same damn thing over and over again, unless something external happens to change the HoC arithmetic then this Mexican standoff will continue.
> I have this mental vision of Tusk frantically mouthing "Tell Her I'm Not In" every time his secretary picks up the phone.



If the extension lasts beyond December then she is vulnerable to a VONC again.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Au contraire, if we can still say that. By 30 June 2935 I think things will have been worked out



So soon? Heavens.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> So soon? Heavens.


British politicians can get the job done speedily when they put their minds to work with a bayonet behind them


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 9, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Fans drinking pints of St Crispin's Ale in the stands.
> 
> Actually, there should be a line of Brexit branded beers:
> 
> ...



This is apparently a real beer - would be more appropriate if it only came in "Bitter" and "Extra Bitter."


----------



## newbie (Apr 9, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i already do


there's a list here of ministers who have resigned over brexit, though no doubt some were pushed.  The recent battles might have been very different if the balance of power within the cabinet hadn't shifted.


----------



## andysays (Apr 10, 2019)

Winot said:


> If the extension lasts beyond December then she is vulnerable to a VONC again.


That's a VoNC as leader of the Tories. She/her government is also, in theory, vulnerable to a VoNC at any time.

But despite littlebabyjesus saying it would be sensible to have an election, there seems not to be a majority for such a thing either in the party or the HoC as a whole


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 10, 2019)

andysays said:


> That's a VoNC as leader of the Tories. She/her government is also, in theory, vulnerable to a VoNC at any time.
> 
> But despite littlebabyjesus saying it would be sensible to have an election, there seems not to be a majority for such a thing either in the party or the HoC as a whole



I can believe there isn't a majority on the tory benches for a general election but in the house as a whole?  Party discipline would have had to break down to an astonishingly low level for both the tories and Labour to whip for the same outcome and still lose.  Doesn't sound likely to me.


----------



## killer b (Apr 10, 2019)

If may called a general there is no way she wouldnt get the votes to push it through.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 10, 2019)

brogdale said:


> A trend we can all get behind? Voluntary disenfranchisement by the older demographic can only be a good thing.
> 
> _Take back control; spoil your own ballot _


Gaining traction!

Go on, posh ladies of the shires...get a spunking cock on yer ballot paper...that's the spirit!


----------



## prunus (Apr 10, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Gaining traction!
> 
> Go on, posh ladies of the shires...get a spunking cock on yer ballot paper...that's the spirit!
> 
> View attachment 167182



There is of course nothing like a show of petulance to demonstrate the rectitude of one’s position, and additionally I heartily commend to all the idea that those people who would otherwise vote for an anti-EU candidate should spoil their ballots.  Take back control of the toyless pram.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 10, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Gaining traction!
> 
> Go on, posh ladies of the shires...get a spunking cock on yer ballot paper...that's the spirit!
> 
> View attachment 167182



And as I keep repeating; spunking cock is a vote, so not disenfranchised, but adding to their mandate. Just bin your polling card and stop playing their silly games. The lower the turnout, the weaker the mandate.


----------



## andysays (Apr 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> If may called a general there is no way she wouldnt get the votes to push it through.


I agree, but as the context made clear, I'm talking about forcing a GE through a VoNC. There wasn't a majority for that last time and it's difficult to see that happening anytime in the future.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> If may called a general there is no way she wouldnt get the votes to push it through.


you have it the wrong way round, the house votes for it and then it happens. not it's called and then the house votes for it.


----------



## Flavour (Apr 10, 2019)

he means may could get two thirds of the house to vote in favor of having a GE.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2019)

Flavour said:


> he means may could get two thirds of the house to vote in favor of having a GE.


yeh on february 30


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 10, 2019)

and under a blue moon


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 167184



Hard to believe it was only two years ago.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 10, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And as I keep repeating; spunking cock is a vote, so not disenfranchised, but adding to their mandate. Just bin your polling card and stop playing their silly games. The lower the turnout, the weaker the mandate.



Exactly this. I traditionally enjoy spoiling my vote but in this moment the only serious political act is this ^


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 10, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And as I keep repeating; spunking cock is a vote, so not disenfranchised, but adding to their mandate. Just bin your polling card and stop playing their silly games. The lower the turnout, the weaker the mandate.



Actually, all spoilt ballots have to be shown to candidates. A significant number would slow down election counts significantly. 

I'm hoping there are enough in Sunderland that they don't count the ballots the fastest like they normally do.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 10, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Actually, all spoilt ballots have to be shown to candidates. A significant number would slow down election counts significantly.



It is still participation - and counts as turnout. 

Record low turnouts and as many people as possible turning their backs on them is better.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 10, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Actually, all spoilt ballots have to be shown to candidates. A significant number would slow down election counts significantly.


Hmmm. Mostly all you're doing is pissing off the vote counters, then, and delaying the time they can go home.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 10, 2019)

2/3rds of the House is everyone else plus about half of the Tories so if May called a GE there would be one since even in the current state of near civil war that exists in the Tories she would get more than half her own MP's.
Even with the DUP the Tories are just about short of a majority now so Labour could theoretically win a VoNC if they could get EVERYONE else to vote for it but that's effectively impossible, there's just too many disparate groups (many of whom are definitely not fans of Corbyn) to go along with it.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 10, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> Hard to believe it was only two years ago.
> 
> View attachment 167189


this is my favourite Theresa May picture - 4.30am at the count, looking into the abyss


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 10, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> 2/3rds of the House is everyone else plus about half of the Tories so if May called a GE there would be one since even in the current state of near civil war that exists in the Tories she would get more than half her own MP's.
> Even with the DUP the Tories are just about short of a majority now so Labour could theoretically win a VoNC if they could get EVERYONE else to vote for it but that's effectively impossible, there's just too many disparate groups (many of whom are definitely not fans of Corbyn) to go along with it.


Currently, I believe tories plus DUP is 324. Remembering that Sinn Fein don't take up their seats, that's effectively a majority.


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 10, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And as I keep repeating; spunking cock is a vote, so not disenfranchised, but adding to their mandate. Just bin your polling card and stop playing their silly games. The lower the turnout, the weaker the mandate.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 10, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Currently, I believe tories plus DUP is 324. Remembering that Sinn Fein don't take up their seats, that's effectively a majority.


According to HoP website it's 650 assholes MP's minus 7 SF makes 643, 313 Tories + 10 crazies makes 323 versus 320 others (some of which are Tories who have taken off their badges) so Yeah still just a majority but Corbyn will never unite all non-Tories he can only really count on his own and the Nationalists to support a VoNC so not going to happen.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 10, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> 2/3rds of the House is everyone else plus about half of the Tories so if May called a GE there would be one since even in the current state of near civil war that exists in the Tories she would get more than half her own MP's.
> Even with the DUP the Tories are just about short of a majority now so Labour could theoretically win a VoNC if they could get EVERYONE else to vote for it but that's effectively impossible, there's just too many disparate groups (many of whom are definitely not fans of Corbyn) to go along with it.



Fairly sure both the limp dems and tinge / upchuk have said they would support theresa may in a parliamentary vote of no confidence and not vote with labour - they may of course have changed their position a few times since then.


----------



## killer b (Apr 10, 2019)

I think they'd both be more likely to abstain than support the govt tbf. Although if it looked like the DUP or enough Tories might support a VONC that might change.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It is still participation - and counts as turnout.
> 
> Record low turnouts and as many people as possible turning their backs on them is better.


Hissing at them in the street


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 10, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> Hard to believe it was only two years ago.
> 
> View attachment 167189



why are there inverted commas around "unelected" wrt the lords? do they think it means emphasis ?
Fuckwits


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> why are there inverted commas around "unelected" wrt the lords? do they think it means emphasis ?
> Fuckwits


last time i looked no one elected journalists


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 10, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> why are there inverted commas around "unelected" wrt the lords? do they think it means emphasis ?
> Fuckwits


It’s probably the Fail trying to emphasise that they are quoting someone else saying unelected.
Not us m’Lord.
Toady, arse licking shitbags.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> last time i looked no one elected journalists



We would in the Soviets, comrade.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 10, 2019)

9th June 2017, taken outside the flat I was living in then.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2019)

it's the end of the road for the can


----------



## FiFi (Apr 10, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> View attachment 167190


If we all voted for cocks in the UK at present, we'd end up with the same bunch of numpties back in their seats!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 10, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hmmm. Mostly all you're doing is pissing off the vote counters, then, and delaying the time they can go home.



I think they get paid more for delays from what I remember. Pissing off the candidates too.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 10, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I think they get paid more for delays from what I remember. Pissing off the candidates too.


My mate does it. iirc it's a flat rate. Maybe a bonus for a recount. I do remember her saying specifically that spoilt ballots are a pain in the arse. Best thing you can do for the counters is not vote.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 10, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> My mate does it. iirc it's a flat rate. Maybe a bonus for a recount. I do remember her saying specifically that spoilt ballots are a pain in the arse. Best thing you can do for the counters is not vote.



*Shrug* I like spoiling my ballot.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 10, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I do remember her saying specifically that spoilt ballots are a pain in the arse.



What?  Moreso than Tory votes?


----------



## belboid (Apr 10, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> My mate does it. iirc it's a flat rate. Maybe a bonus for a recount. I do remember her saying specifically that spoilt ballots are a pain in the arse. Best thing you can do for the counters is not vote.


Depends how they're spoilt, according to my mates who have done it.

A straightforward cock n balls across the entire ballot, no problem, put to one side.  Any mark going across two boxes is technically spoilt, but the candidates will want to argue about it, and claim it's clearly a vote for them.  _That _is a pain in the arse.

Writing 'is a cunt' in one, just one, of the boxes gives rise to debate. That can be vaguely amusing to watch the candidate claim that it is actually an endorsement of them. It's my preferred option.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 10, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> *Shrug* I like spoiling my ballot.


I've sometimes spent ages in a polling booth scribbling out slogans. I'm sure the election staff were wondering what I was up to. Hmm... as the candidates check all the spoilt votes, mebbe some personal insults against the buggers would be more worthwhile than spot on political comment


----------



## Patteran (Apr 10, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> View attachment 167214
> 
> 9th June 2017, taken outside the flat I was living in then.



Canned Brexit, gutter-pressed.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 10, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> I've sometimes spent ages in a polling booth scribbling out slogans. I'm sure the election staff were wondering what I was up to. Hmm... as the candidates check all the spoilt votes, mebbe some personal insults against the buggers would be more worthwhile than spot on political comment



The first time I ever voted a woman tapped on the side of the booth and asked if I was alright


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> The first time I ever voted a woman tapped on the side of the booth and asked if I was alright


she thought you weren't just drawing a spunking cock


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> she thought you weren't just drawing a spunking cock



I wasn't! I drew several.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> The first time I ever voted a woman tapped on the side of the booth and asked if I was alright


Did you have the curtains closed? 

It's a while since I've voted, wonder if Spunking Cock might provide the inspiration to come out of retirement - particularly if it's an in/out poll...

Okay, okay, I'm going...


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 10, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Did you have the curtains closed?
> 
> It's a while since I've voted, wonder if Spunking Cock might provide the inspiration to come out of retirement - particularly if it's an in/out poll...
> 
> Okay, okay, I'm going...



I did. Was just me and the ballot paper. For a good 20 minutes


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I did. Was just me and the ballot paper. For a good 20 minutes


Amazing what you can do with a stubby pencil...



RIGHT, THAT'S IT, NO MORE, I'M BANNING MYSELF!


----------



## 8ball (Apr 10, 2019)

Didn't we have someone on here who was doing some quite excellent artwork on the slips?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> Didn't we have someone on here who was doing some quite excellent artwork on the slips?


Spymaster's done some very nice embroidery on kris's slips


----------



## gosub (Apr 10, 2019)

Usually spoil by writing "I am not apethetic"  coz they usually try and claim not voting is down to voter apathy..  There are countless other reasons for not endorsing any of the fuckers


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 10, 2019)

ska invita said:


> this is my favourite Theresa May picture - 4.30am at the count, looking into the abyss


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> View attachment 167234


i think Shippou-Sensei has that manga


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 10, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Did you have the curtains closed?



Curtains?!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 10, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Curtains?!


It's very easy to mistake a voting both for a seaside changing cubicle.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Apr 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i think Shippou-Sensei has that manga


That's anime actually...

Actually I'm not huge into Gundam. I liked wing   back in the day  but   then tried to watch the original  and	didn't  make it  all that far.


----------



## Cloo (Apr 10, 2019)

While I am in large part pleased at the prospect of a long Brexit delay, opening as it does the possibility of averting this fucking nightmare, I do worry it = more time for the nasty things to fester, so that either way we end up with a nasty case of active right-wing bastards who will feel emboldened to lay ever more things they don't like at the feet of liberals/'elite'/Jews/left wing etc.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 11, 2019)

Cloo said:


> feel emboldened to lay ever more things they don't like at the feet of liberals/'elite'/Jews/left wing etc.


Every post brexit eventuality makes that happen


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 11, 2019)

Cloo said:


> While I am in large part pleased at the prospect of a long Brexit delay, opening as it does the possibility of averting this fucking nightmare, I do worry it = more time for the nasty things to fester, so that either way we end up with a nasty case of active right-wing bastards who will feel emboldened to lay ever more things they don't like at the feet of liberals/'elite'/Jews/left wing etc.



Brexit is like cancer corrupting the nation. It needs excising. 

Remainers need to take the opportunity for a soft landing at some point or the thing will carry on rotting.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> *Shrug* I like spoiling my ballot.


It's encouraging to know that your cretinous opinions don't count. Keep it up!


----------



## Cloo (Apr 11, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Every post brexit eventuality makes that happen


Well yes basically now it does because it's got so long and poisonous. If we leave the far right will be crowing and feel ever more entitled because, if we somehow don't then EVERY bad thing that follows will be blamed on the EU/foreigners/Jews/Muslims etc 

Mr Moose - yes, i am kind of feeling that anything might be better than this dragging on. Cameron gave the nation the rope and now it's slowly asphyxiating itself.


----------



## alex_ (Apr 11, 2019)

Cloo said:


> Well yes basically now it does because it's got so long and poisonous. If we leave the far right will be crowing and feel ever more entitled because, if we somehow don't then EVERY bad thing that follows will be blamed on the EU/foreigners/Jews/Muslims.



Because the far right have been so balanced and fair up to now.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 11, 2019)

Cloo said:


> Well yes basically now it does because it's got so long and poisonous. If we leave the far right will be crowing and feel ever more entitled because, if we somehow don't then EVERY bad thing that follows will be blamed on the EU/foreigners/Jews/Muslims etc


im not sure time makes much of a difference, i dont think the far rights investment in the issue is going to fade over the year, and as you say, hard leave/evictions/deportations are an emboldening triumph, remaining/revoking etc are an emboldening betrayal - and thats just this little chapter in the bigger ongoing global story: its the new reality and its not going away any time soon


----------



## Cloo (Apr 11, 2019)

alex_ said:


> Because the far right have been so balanced and fair up to now.


Indeed... But for a while now they've been laughed out of town and that is getting less the case. The Referendum has providrd the evidence of the popularity of blaming problems of foreigners (rather than, y'know, rampant capitalism) and they're on a roll.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 11, 2019)

Cloo said:


> Indeed... But for a while now they've been laughed out of town and that is getting less the case. The Referendum has providrd the evidence of the popularity of blaming problems of foreigners (rather than, y'know, rampant capitalism) and they're on a roll.



The referendum proved nothing of the sort.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 11, 2019)

well - the outcome of the crunch  - six more months of pointless fucking about - wasn't really covered in the poll options. 
close this thread and go back to the brexit daddy one?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 11, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> It's encouraging to know that your cretinous opinions don't count. Keep it up!





Don't feel obliged to keep up your 'jokes' on my behalf.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Don't feel obliged to keep up your 'jokes' on my behalf.


I'm not joking. I think it's great that you don't vote, and admirable of you to self impose and abide by such an intelligence qualifier.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 11, 2019)

Go on... why don't you tell us "people died for you right to vote" etc


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 11, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Go on... why don't you tell us "people died for you right to vote" etc


Why would I do that? I thoroughly approve of people not voting. Especially SpackleFrog.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 11, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I'm not joking. I think it's great that you don't vote, and admirable of you to self impose and abide by such an intelligence qualifier.



I do vote. Sometimes. Sometimes I vote for a candidate, and some times I spoil. I'm not ultra fussy, I've voted for the Communist Party and the Labour Party once each. But I spoil sometimes too. 

Anyway. I assume you're done with your trendy libwal jokes about stupid people not being allowed to vote?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I assume you're done ...


I'll decide when I'm done. You're here for my amusement remember, not the other way around.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 11, 2019)

Oh how we laughed


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 11, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I'll decide when I'm done. You're here for my amusement remember, not the other way around.



You're a very weird guy. My guess is you were done about 15 years ago, and yet you lurch on.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 11, 2019)

got an e-mail (i think i once signed one of their online petition things) from 38 degrees a day or so ago asking me to e-mail my MP and ask him to vote a certain way on something brexity

my MP (in the sense that i live within the constituency) is John Bloody Redwood


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 12, 2019)

Is this thread on rundown to closing at this point?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Is this thread on rundown to closing at this point?


Closes October 31st, with a review in June.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Is this thread on rundown to closing at this point?


is that what happens next?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> is that what happens next?



Take down the tents, decamp, disperse, return home and reassemble in mid-September?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 12, 2019)

Or just wander off like the alleged government!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Or just wander off like the alleged government!


there'll be no wandering off when they're in the barracks on the thatcher peninsula. apart from the regular 'captain oates' spot, of course.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> there'll be no wandering off when they're in the barracks on the thatcher peninsula. apart from the regular 'captain oates' spot, of course.



They were only ‘not following orders’


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> They were only ‘not following orders’


they'll be following the barracks trustee, one t. may, every time they parade for work


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Or just wander off like the alleged government!



I don't think anyone has made that allegation.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 12, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> got an e-mail (i think i once signed one of their online petition things) from 38 degrees a day or so ago asking me to e-mail my MP and ask him to vote a certain way on something brexity
> 
> my MP (in the sense that i live within the constituency) is John Bloody Redwood


surely anything that winds that creature up has to be a good thing ? 
(though I doubt there's an actual beating heart in there to be over-exercised)


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I don't think anyone has made that allegation.



Easter holidays.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Is this thread on rundown to closing at this point?


Where will we put our visceral, irrational rage when it’s all over?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 12, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Where will we put our visceral, irrational rage when it’s all over?



We could become primary school teachers?


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 12, 2019)

I just read on Mumsnet that were one to too frequently associate "The Brexit Party",  "Nigel Farage" and "www.thebrexitparty.com" together in searches and fora, it might cause confusion to search engines ....


----------



## killer b (Apr 12, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> I just read on Mumsnet that were one to too frequently associate "The Brexit Party",  "Nigel Farage" and "www.thebrexitparty.com" together in searches and fora, it might cause confusion to search engines ....


A mighty blow has been struck against the faragist hordes. Will they ever recover from this?


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 12, 2019)

I accidentally caught a glimpse of the launch earlier - held in some sort of equine wholesale place - there was a guy with something of the build of "Hoss" Cartwright - also wearing moleskin epaulettes ...


----------



## gosub (Apr 13, 2019)

Brexit: pro-EU parties to use European elections  as 'soft referendum'


Utterly barking.  Can we then take every non vote as a vote to leave.


Highest UK turnout 2004  38.5%


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2019)

gosub said:


> Brexit: pro-EU parties to use European elections  as 'soft referendum'
> 
> 
> Utterly barking.  Can we then take every non vote as a vote to leave.
> ...


They will regret this, mark my words


----------



## grit (Apr 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Is this thread on rundown to closing at this point?



It all feels very anticlimactic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Is this thread on rundown to closing at this point?


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 13, 2019)




----------



## gosub (Apr 13, 2019)

grit said:


> It all feels very anticlimactic.


I don't think it's over by a long chalk, but a couple of weeks off is probably the right move.  

Mark Carney said 80% of businesses were Brexit ready... That's a lot of wasted outlay with potentially a need to do the same thing again in October...


----------



## Guineveretoo (Apr 13, 2019)

Seems Farage wasn't quick enough - Led By Donkeys managed to get hold of the The Brexit Party (almost) website and turn it into a anti-Brexit page


----------



## gosub (Apr 13, 2019)

Guineveretoo said:


> Seems Farage wasn't quick enough - Led By Donkeys managed to get hold of the The Brexit Party (almost) website and turn it into a anti-Brexit page


As a pro remain group led by donkeys come across as quite slick, but  legitimate politic.  Let's paste these tweets* all over Britain
Know how to get bang for their buck.

(If EU funding Did show up in their book keeping - it would be outrageously the wrong side of the line.


----------



## Wookey (Apr 13, 2019)

Guineveretoo said:


> Seems Farage wasn't quick enough - Led By Donkeys managed to get hold of the The Brexit Party (almost) website and turn it into a anti-Brexit page



Superb.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 14, 2019)

Farage isn't going to be minister for brexit some day. He teeters on the doubt of whether enough people realise he is a shit, empty, charlatan twat. No thanks to the BBC the clueless dickheads.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 14, 2019)

Wrt to the BBC I feel that you give them to much slack, they know what they are doing.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 14, 2019)

No one can ignore Nigel. Not that he amounts to much. Keep giving him coverage. Dickheads certainly, clueless not so much I'm sure you are right.


----------



## treelover (Apr 14, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Wrt to the BBC I feel that you give them to much slack, they know what they are doing.




You really think the BBC is pushing a far right agenda, when Mark Thompson its former D/G wrote that they(the BBC) had promoted a socially liberal agenda that was not universally shared by viewers.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 14, 2019)

I never said far-right but certainly right of centre.


----------



## alex_ (Apr 14, 2019)

teqniq said:


> I never said far-right but certainly right of centre.



If you read the telegraph they’ll tell you it’s left of center.

You can’t both be right.


----------



## killer b (Apr 14, 2019)

alex_ said:


> If you read the telegraph they’ll tell you it’s left of center.
> 
> You can’t both be right.


Yeah, the telegraph is wrong.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2019)

Torygraph also feared a slide toward communism if ed milliband got elected.


----------



## Rob Ray (Apr 15, 2019)

Good lord can you imagine actually taking the Telegraph's assessment of what "left wing" means seriously? It'd be like relying on Andrew Wakefield to assess vaccines.


----------



## Poi E (Apr 15, 2019)




----------



## Argonia (Apr 21, 2019)




----------



## Cid (Apr 22, 2019)

Is it back on tomorrow?


----------



## Poi E (Apr 22, 2019)




----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 22, 2019)

treelover said:


> You really think the BBC is pushing a far right agenda, when Mark Thompson its former D/G wrote that they(the BBC) had promoted a socially liberal agenda that was not universally shared by viewers.


There is no contradiction between being socially liberal and economically conservative or neoliberal - it has been, until recently, the position of most Western governments.  Even some of the “new right” and “populists” profess social liberalism - often as a further weapon to demonise Muslims.  The BBC is the channel of the establishment.  The default position of the major factions of the British establishment has for a long time been mild social liberalism as a fig leaf for vicious neoliberal economics.


----------



## Cid (Apr 22, 2019)

Poi E said:


>



Game of groans, their Easter break is over now, so I’m guessing all the high drama and politicking will be back soon. Or it might just be dull until the last few weeks like it was last time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2019)

Cid said:


> Game of groans, their Easter break is over now, so I’m guessing all the high drama and politicking will be back soon. Or it might just be dull until the last few weeks like it was last time.


They've got to raise their game now they've seen some competition from extinction rebellion


----------



## killer b (Apr 23, 2019)

Tatty Devine's new 'EU and Me' jewellery range is quite something. 

EU and Me | Tatty Devine


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> Tatty Devine's new 'EU and Me' jewellery range is quite something.
> 
> EU and Me | Tatty Devine


not a very nice something


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 23, 2019)

This might be a stupid question and I have been fucked for like 4 days, however why do people think voting for a pro Brexit MEP will get them the Brexit they want?

Will the MEP's have any influence on anything other than pissing all over the table in Brussels, (assuming we get to that stage)


----------



## kabbes (Apr 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> Tatty Devine's new 'EU and Me' jewellery range is quite something.
> 
> EU and Me | Tatty Devine


That’s really special


----------



## killer b (Apr 23, 2019)

kabbes said:


> That’s really special


_People who obsess over the colour of our passport are deranged nutcases, and also this cute brooch of a tiny european passport is definitely worth 25 pounds send me two. _


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 23, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> This might be a stupid question and I have been fucked for like 4 days, however why do people think voting for a pro Brexit MEP will get them the Brexit they want?
> 
> Will the MEP's have any influence on anything other than pissing all over the table in Brussels, (assuming we get to that stage)



It’s to 
a) send a message to the UK government that the public still want to leave (though might not show this)
b) to stick MEPs in the European Parliament that can be disruptive out of spite, so as to punish the EU for not letting the UK have cake and eat it.

Of these, a) will probably happen as the ‘remain’ ticket is divided and the most pro-EU voices aren’t the sort of people most could stomach voting for.


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 23, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> It’s to
> a) send a message to the UK government that the public still want to leave (though might not show this)
> b) to stick MEPs in the European Parliament that can be disruptive out of spite, so as to punish the EU for not letting the UK have cake and eat it.
> 
> Of these, a) will probably happen as the ‘remain’ ticket is divided and the most pro-EU voices aren’t the sort of people most could stomach voting for.



That's what i mean tho, it won't change anything will it, but see lots of people assuming if they get Breixt MEP's they will get what they want


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> That's what i mean tho, it won't change anything will it, but see lots of people assuming if they get Breixt MEP's they will get what they want


if we get brexit mps we'll get what they want


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> This might be a stupid question and I have been fucked for like 4 days, however why do people think voting for a pro Brexit MEP will get them the Brexit they want?
> 
> Will the MEP's have any influence on anything other than pissing all over the table in Brussels, (assuming we get to that stage)


we'll be very lucky if the next crop of meps have the wherewithal to successfully piss on tables in brussels


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Apr 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> we'll be very lucky if the next crop of meps have the wherewithal to successfully piss on tables in brussels



Hobbitses.... eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2019)

Lupa said:


> Hobbitses.... eh?


yes, imaginary halflings would do a better job in brussels and strasbourg than the intellectual pygmies who'll be sent there


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Apr 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, imaginary halflings would do a better job in brussels than the intellectual pygmies who'll be sent there



Absolutely.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 24, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> That's what i mean tho, it won't change anything will it, but see lots of people assuming if they get Breixt MEP's they will get what they want


Well that's true of all representative elections isn't it.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 24, 2019)

killer b said:


> Tatty Devine's new 'EU and Me' jewellery range is quite something.
> 
> EU and Me | Tatty Devine



Fucking hell that’s awful.


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 24, 2019)

The thing with this Tommy Robison putting his name down as an MEP one would assume when it comes to Election Day most of the voters won’t have a clue who Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon is.......


----------



## toblerone3 (Apr 24, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> It’s to
> a) send a message to the UK government that the public still want to leave (though might not show this)
> b) to stick MEPs in the European Parliament that can be disruptive out of spite, so as to punish the EU for not letting the UK have cake and eat it.
> 
> Of these, a) will probably happen as the ‘remain’ ticket is divided and the most pro-EU voices aren’t the sort of people most could stomach voting for.



But wont the proportional representation element of the EU elections mean that the division of the remain ticket will still result in the election of remain-minded MEPs from different parties?


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 24, 2019)

Ranbay said:


> The thing with this Tommy Robison putting his name down as an MEP one would assume when it comes to Election Day most of the voters won’t have a clue who Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon is.......





But (a general question) : Are not candidates allowed to add "commonly known as ... " (or something like that) to their real names, on the ballot paper? 

</relying on Urban not Google because it's bed time for me   >


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 24, 2019)

As in "Commonly known as 'That Frothfoaming Looncake'  ... "


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 25, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> But (a general question) : Are not candidates allowed to add "commonly known as ... " (or something like that) to their real names, on the ballot paper?
> 
> </relying on Urban not Google because it's bed time for me   >


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2019)

Christ Ranbay but I'm sick of that fucking gif you keep posting.


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Christ Ranbay but I'm sick of that fucking gif you keep posting.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Apr 25, 2019)

I can't say where I got this from, but I heard certain logistical preparations are being made for a General Election announcement as of yesterday.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> I can't say where I got this from, but I heard certain logistical preparations are being made for a General Election announcement as of yesterday.



Nah.  The tories are shitting bricks at the moment.  May would never be forgiven if she called another election and it went even more tits up then last time.


----------



## killer b (Apr 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> I can't say where I got this from


why bother then, it's most likely bollocks.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> I can't say where I got this from,


----------



## HungryTommy (Apr 26, 2019)

I reckon it will end up with a GE , as both main parties now are just a bunch of timid clowns


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 26, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> I can't say where I got this from,



You were at that National Security Council meeting weren’t you?


----------



## HungryTommy (Apr 26, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Nah.  The tories are shitting bricks at the moment.  May would never be forgiven if she called another election and it went even more tits up then last time.


let's just hope someone can get her moved out of number 10 - she really is an embarrassment to the nation


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 26, 2019)

HungryTommy said:


> an embarrassment to the nation


Fuck the nation.


----------



## HungryTommy (Apr 26, 2019)

sure, that's a nice grown up view to have - what are u, some kind of undergrad at Brighton uni or something


----------



## kabbes (Apr 26, 2019)

The worst of all the bad insults


----------



## HungryTommy (Apr 26, 2019)

not a bad uni, in fact they don't even sell any newspapers in the SU there, just in case any one of them causes offence  - must be a bastion of free thought


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2019)

HungryTommy said:


> I reckon it will end up with a GE , as both main parties now are just a bunch of timid clowns


It will end in tears


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> I can't say where I got this from, but I heard certain logistical preparations are being made for a General Election announcement as of yesterday.


Yeh now they have to announce the logistical preparation for an announcement


----------



## kabbes (Apr 26, 2019)

OK, for those wondering what the ignore function is for, THIS is what it is for.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 26, 2019)

What ignore function? I think I might have ignored it. That'll learn me for not getting a degree at Brighton university


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 26, 2019)

Found it. Job's a good un.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 26, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> You were at that National Security Council meeting weren’t you?



I didn’t see him!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 26, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I didn’t see him!



He was hiding in the vol-au-vents.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 26, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> He was hiding in the vol-au-vents.



An obvious Remainer then, forrin food.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2019)

HungryTommy said:


> sure, that's a nice grown up view to have - what are u, some kind of undergrad at Brighton uni or something


Watch out, looks like we've got some sort of Russell Group elitist here. Be careful engaging, they'll most likely have been to a public school and learn't logic & rhetoric and all that posh shit.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 26, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> An obvious Remainer then, forrin food.


Vol-au-vents - up yours Delors!  Giant Yorkshires will be the finger food of choice for Brexit.


----------



## Supine (Apr 26, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Giant Yorkshires will be the finger food of choice for Brexit.



If you can still buy the ingredients


----------



## Wilf (Apr 26, 2019)

Remainers will huddle together in bombed out basements bartering saurkraut and patatas bravas for antibiotics and drinking water. I'm planning to make a few quid running illegal raves where the like minded can dance the Sardana and yodel till the cows come home.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 26, 2019)

Supine said:


> If you can still buy the ingredients



We will mix them on the beaches!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 28, 2019)

Must admit, I'm genuinely confused as to the game Labour are playing. Now making noises about supporting May's deal, along with a yes we will/yes we won't strategy on a second ref. 
Angry Labour activists threaten European election campaign boycott
I realise they might be playing games with May and seeking to wind up the ERG, but there isn't much here that hints at a coherent strategy or position of principle (shocking), particularly when you factor in the leaflet that came and went this week.


----------



## gosub (Apr 28, 2019)

https://www.politico.eu/article/poll-majority-of-brits-think-brexit-referendum-was-a-bad-idea/


Disappointed by that. To get where EUrope was/is off the mandate of the Common Market referendum is wrong.  And I think people forget how much of a struggle getting public consultation actually  was. 

It has been devicive sure,and brecht badly hanfled but it's also highlighted how out of their depth our polticans AND media are...Which,moving forward I'd say is better to know and address


----------



## Duncan2 (Apr 29, 2019)

Some alarming figures on C4 news about the extent to which a combination of cuts to local government and parents' low-wages is impacting on primary school children.Accounts of 85 per cent of schools having to provide food and or clothing and soap to kids before they could even think of trying to teach them anything.Kids rummaging in bins for food or in the lunch-boxes of fellow pupils,kids in ludicrously over-crowded flats,kids coming in with apparent rat-bites,kids aged seven with black teeth.This is unprecedented in the recent past is it not.Some will say Brexit will make the situation worse not better-seems to me it has to be tried.


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> Some alarming figures on C4


What are they?


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Must admit, I'm genuinely confused as to the game Labour are playing. Now making noises about supporting May's deal, along with a yes we will/yes we won't strategy on a second ref.
> Angry Labour activists threaten European election campaign boycott
> I realise they might be playing games with May and seeking to wind up the ERG, but there isn't much here that hints at a coherent strategy or position of principle (shocking), particularly when you factor in the leaflet that came and went this week.


There isn't actually anything in this piece is there? It's just the observers weekly 'try to bounce labour into supporting a second referendum' column.


----------



## Duncan2 (Apr 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> What are they?


Soz please see my edit which I admit does not convey very well the rather more detailed figures in the C4 piece.


----------



## gosub (Apr 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> What are they?


Alan Carr and Jimmy Carr for two


----------



## ska invita (Jun 15, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> She’s united the nation!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





ska invita said:


> i might be on my righteous horse here but the notion of "national humiliation" in this is bullshit...reeks of pushing our weight around on the world stage and saving face against those euurghopeans. Most of that 90% will be voting Tory AGAIN at the next election.



Point I was making about National Humiliation earlier in the year made a lot better here:
Brexit Britain is wallowing in dangerous talk of national humiliation | Fintan O’Toole

National Humiliation is just National Arrogance feeling sorry for itself


----------



## Combustible (Jun 16, 2019)

It's a bit odd that despite acknowledging that the feeling of 'national humilation' is held widely by both leavers and remainers, the rest of the article solely discusses it in terms of Brexiters. There is absolutely no reflection of it's implication for remainers, despite being a big part of the arguments of a number of prominent hard remainers (see all the talk of national act of self-abuse, Britain diminishing it's role in the world, giving up global leadersgip etc)


----------



## Poi E (Jun 16, 2019)

Touch of Gloria Swanson in Sunset Boulevard about Blighty these days.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 16, 2019)

I thought national humiliation was the silver lining to the Brexit shitfest.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 16, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> I thought national humiliation was the silver lining to the Brexit shitfest.



Humiliation doesn't often lead to humility IME.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 16, 2019)

You can bet any post-brexit fuckery will be cast as entirely the fault of the inflexible and arrogant EU. No chance that the populist gonk at the helm then will take any blame for it.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 16, 2019)

Nah Corbyn will get the blame.


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> You can bet any post-brexit fuckery will be cast as entirely the fault of the inflexible and arrogant EU. No chance that the populist gonk at the helm then will take any blame for it.


So Boris "Fuck Business" Johnson  will emerge entirely unscathed?  I think not, mind you I thought Bloombergs video accusing Farage of insider trading would have been facebook shared to death doing in the euros.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 19, 2019)

We need a new poll fro braging rights.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 29, 2019)

I have seen the future. Brexit will look like this
Passport to Pimlico (1949)         - IMDb


----------

