# Plastic Free July



## boohoo (Jul 2, 2015)

Don't quite know where to put this on but if you have ever tried to stop using plastic, then you will have realised just how much stuff we use involves plastic. Food shopping has got worse and to anyone using the cheaper brands such as Lidl and Aldi, you will find a shop full of goods wrapped in plastics that aren't recyclable.

So I challenge you to try and reduce your plastic use during this month at the very least.

http://www.plasticfreejuly.org/


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## Artaxerxes (Jul 2, 2015)

I doubt you could last a week, I mean seriously its everywhere


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## boohoo (Jul 2, 2015)

It's a bastard - really is. But I think the idea of plastic free July is to get people thinking about their plastic use and making an effort to not treat things  as so disposable.


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## 8115 (Jul 2, 2015)

I'll look at this and maybe give it a go.

At the moment I'm trying to reduce my leccy use, just realised I'm posting this on a phone though.


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## boohoo (Jul 2, 2015)

I went in Aldi to see if I could find a snack but most of their products are in lots of packaging - most of which can't be recycled.

I went to Surrey St Market in Croydon and bought most of my veg with not too much plastic although why are all cucumbers wrapped in plastic. The lady selling me the coriander insisted that she put it in a plastic bag! I got olives in a plastic container but I'm thinking or reusing it and trying to take it somewhere that sells better olives.

If I could afford the farmers market that might be the best option for other products (and a place to meet producers who might be persuaded to take a more environmental approach to their packaging)


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## boohoo (Jul 2, 2015)

My sister is also looking at reducing her plastic. Here is her blog:

http://theplasticexperiment.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/day-1.html


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## 8ball (Jul 2, 2015)

The train I catch to work is plastic, lots of stuff at my house and work is plastic.  Parts of my body are plastic.  Might as well boycott oxygen.


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## boohoo (Jul 2, 2015)

8ball said:


> The train I catch to work is plastic, lots of stuff at my house and work is plastic.  Parts of my body are plastic.  Might as well boycott oxygen.



Yer but...  We use a heck of a lot of plastic when we don't need to. do you need your cucumber in plastic? I'm sure we could use some plastic just not in such a disposable manner and with solutions to reusing it.


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## boohoo (Jul 2, 2015)

Another useful post from my sister:

http://theplasticexperiment.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/day-2-symbols-of-plastic-know-your-enemy.html


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## 8ball (Jul 2, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Yer but...  We use a heck of a lot of plastic when we don't need to. do you need your cucumber in plastic? I'm sure we could use some plastic just not in such a disposable manner and with solutions to reusing it.



I think the problem with some of the plastics we use is that they do not degrade in a suitable time given their purpose


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## boohoo (Jul 2, 2015)

8ball said:


> I think the problem with some of the plastics we use is that they do not degrade in a suitable time given their purpose



yes! But most of us ignore a lot of these things. We buy loads of throw away items made of materials that will take a long time to disappear.


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## 8ball (Jul 2, 2015)

boohoo said:


> yes! But most of us ignore a lot of these things. We buy loads of throw away items made of materials that will take a long time to disappear.



True.  There was more to my previous post but I'm having a few technical glitches.  Awareness of how much and where we are using plastics is good, but the idea that going 'plastic free' is desirable or attainable seems silly.

We need better plastics for some purposes and more sensible use in other cases


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## boohoo (Jul 2, 2015)

8ball said:


> True.  There was more to my previous post but I'm having a few technical glitches.  Awareness of how much and where we are using plastics is good, but the idea that going 'plastic free' is desirable or attainable seems silly.
> 
> We need better plastics for some purposes and more sensible use in other cases



But I think the point of encouraging people to attempt to go plastic free is to make them realise how much plastic there is in their lives.


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## 8ball (Jul 2, 2015)

boohoo said:


> But I think the point of encouraging people to attempt to go plastic free is to make them realise how much plastic there is in their lives.



It will do that, but doing it through a lens that simplistically views plastics as a 'bad thing' could make it look like a hippy vanity to project to some people who might otherwise be sympathetic.


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## boohoo (Jul 2, 2015)

8ball said:


> It will do that, but doing it through a lens that simplistically views plastics as a 'bad thing' could make it look like a hippy vanity to project to some people who might otherwise be sympathetic.



True. There was a great article in an old National Geographical magazine about a team doing some archaeology on a landfill site. They found food that hadn't decomposed for years. Even for things that can deteriorate, if the conditions aren't right it can take longer than expected.


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## tim (Jul 2, 2015)

Is the middle of a heatwave the best time to try and get people to abandon a rather useful material that helps keeps food safe from contaminants; or encourage people to desist from carrying water around in lightweight leakproof containees that don't shatter when you drop them?


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## boohoo (Jul 2, 2015)

tim said:


> Is the middle of a heatwave the best time to try and get people to abandon a rather useful material that helps keeps food safe from contaminants; or encourage people to desist from carrying water around in lightweight leakproof containees that don't shatter when you drop them?



Buy a metal water bottle for a few quid. I have. I am using Tupperware and not buying daily food packed in plastic.


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## tim (Jul 2, 2015)

Ah Tupperware, good; clingfilm bad!


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## Belushi (Jul 3, 2015)

Plastic is an awesome material, I agree that we throw away way too much of it though.


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## JimW (Jul 3, 2015)

Just go d2w: http://www.symphonyenvironmental.com/degradable/d2w-controlledlife-plastic/


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## 8ball (Jul 3, 2015)

Remember going to a festival run by a bunch of committed lefty, enviro-friendly types and the beer 'glasses' at the bar were some new kind of fast-degrading plastic, apparently meant to be completely turned to gas in about 6 months.  Me and a mate each took one home, I put it on a windowsill and he put it in his compost heap.

After 5 years we gave up the experiment and chucked the still pristine beer glasses in the recycling.


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## boohoo (Jul 3, 2015)

tim said:


> Ah Tupperware, good; clingfilm bad!



It's using items over a long period rather than using them once and throwing them away. People do it with clothes too. And we are encouraged to think that way by retailers.


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## boohoo (Jul 3, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Plastic is an awesome material, I agree that we throw away way too much of it though.



I love bakelite.


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## tim (Jul 3, 2015)

boohoo said:


> It's using items over a long period rather than using them once and throwing them away. People do it with clothes too. And we are encouraged to think that way by retailers.



And what about hygene, the argument that clingfilm and other wrappings keep food edible, lessening the need to bin stuff that's gone off.


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## boohoo (Jul 3, 2015)

tim said:


> And what about hygene, the argument that clingfilm and other wrappings keep food edible, lessening the need to bin stuff that's gone off.



Maybe we need to plan what we eat a little better and not have so much hanging around to throw in the bin. In some cases, cling film makes things sweaty - I'm thinking of mushrooms here. 

I don't know the ins and outs of the hygiene issue.


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## Callie (Jul 3, 2015)

I'm growing my own cucumbers. No plastic but they take a bloody long time 

I will bear this in mind for the month, due to do a big shop soon too. I guess planning ahead will be a big step in helping.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 3, 2015)

tim said:


> And what about hygene, the argument that clingfilm and other wrappings keep food edible, lessening the need to bin stuff that's gone off.


 
In my experience keeping vegetables entombed in plastic wrapping makes them sweat and go bad quicker. Especially things like mushrooms.


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## treefrog (Jul 3, 2015)

Balbi and I are doing this, I'm keeping any plastic I buy and discard this month as part of a science project I'm doing with one of my classes.


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## boohoo (Jul 3, 2015)

treefrog said:


> Balbi and I are doing this, I'm keeping any plastic I buy and discard this month as part of a science project I'm doing with one of my classes.



How challenging is it in NZ?

I went to Waitrose to see if they might have high end products that weren't dipped in plastic but it seems that everything is wrapped with some small amount of plastic.


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## treefrog (Jul 3, 2015)

It's everywhere. Being veggie and meal planning helps, and we're baking our own bread, but supermarkets are pretty much pointless exercises this month. I'm trying to procure some plastic-free toothbrushes and some string bags for fruit and veg.


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## Greebo (Jul 3, 2015)

boohoo said:


> <snip> I challenge you to try and reduce your plastic use during this month at the very least.
> 
> http://www.plasticfreejuly.org/


No chucklehead


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## boohoo (Jul 3, 2015)

Greebo said:


> No chucklehead



Buy cider from a glass bottle! Write to chucklehead and ask them to sell it from a glass bottle.


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## Greebo (Jul 3, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Buy cider from a glass bottle! Write to chucklehead and ask them to sell it from a glass bottle.


Glass bottles are discouraged from use in places like public parks (for fairly obvious reasons if you've ever cut yourself on broken glass).

Also, chucklehead don't sell in glass at all - it's plastic bottles at the LCS and bag-in-boxes when they sell online.


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## boohoo (Jul 3, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Glass bottles are discouraged from use in places like public parks (for fairly obvious reasons if you've ever cut yourself on broken glass).
> 
> Also, chucklehead don't sell in glass at all - it's plastic bottles at the LCS and bag-in-boxes when they sell online.



I imagine they might sell from plastic because it is cheaper.

whatever they are doing, plastic is a pollution issue. Next time you are in lidl, try and find the products that aren't covered in plastic. It's really difficult.


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## treefrog (Jul 3, 2015)

Greebo said:


> No chucklehead


Can you return the plastic bottles?

I've been Chucklehead free since 2007, now I come to think of it


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## Greebo (Jul 3, 2015)

treefrog said:


> Can you return the plastic bottles? <snip>


No, but they're reclyclable, at least in this borough.


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

8ball said:


> I think the problem with some of the plastics we use is that they do not degrade in a suitable time given their purpose



My biggest problem is with modern supermarket carrier bags that biodegrade before 
I get them home spilling my groceries everywhere.


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## tufty79 (Jul 4, 2015)

One of the things I'd like work on is milk containers. I've not seen glass bottles for years


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## boohoo (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> My biggest problem is with modern supermarket carrier bags that biodegrade before
> I get them home spilling my groceries everywhere.



I have noticed that they break a lot easier. I have found a tote bag a better option.


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

Isn't this a rather reactionary middle-class gesture? An option only availalable to those who can afford Waitrose and farmers markets. A bit of ritualised self-denial reflecting the pseudoreligiosity that pervades much of the Green Movement. Furthermore, a pretty unimpressive act of self-denial compared with the masochistic antics of more traditional religion. However absurd, refraining from food and liquids between sunrise and sunset displays heroic discipline and stamina. The same can not be said for going shopping with ovepriced linen bags and filling them with unwrapped cross-contaminating meat and veg.


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## Greebo (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> My biggest problem is with modern supermarket carrier bags that biodegrade before
> I get them home spilling my groceries everywhere.


Rucksack - a good quality 60 litre one replaces 5 carrier bags for about 5 years (given 2- 3 uses each week).

Edited to add:  The rucksack is, of course, far from plastic free, but it lasts a lot longer than a carrier bag (or a tote bag) and is unlikely to end up in the sea, even if it does eventually end up in landfill.


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## Greebo (Jul 4, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> One of the things I'd like work on is milk containers. I've not seen glass bottles for years


Tetrapacks are recyclable, or rather, they get shredded down for insulation.


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## treefrog (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> Isn't this a rather reactionary middle-class gesture? An option only availalable to those who can afford Waitrose and farmers markets. A bit of ritualised self-denial reflecting the pseudoreligiosity that pervades much of the Green Movement. Furthermore, a pretty unimpressive act of self-denial compared with the masochistic antics of more traditional religion. However absurd, refraining from food and liquids between sunrise and sunset displays heroic discipline and stamina. The same can not be said for going shopping with ovepriced linen bags and filling them with unwrapped cross-contaminating meat and veg.


I am SO glad you wrote that. You've absolutely won me over.


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## boohoo (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> Isn't this a rather reactionary middle-class gesture? An option only availalable to those who can afford Waitrose and farmers markets. A bit of ritualised self-denial reflecting the pseudoreligiosity that pervades much of the Green Movement. Furthermore, a pretty unimpressive act of self-denial compared with the masochistic antics of more traditional religion. However absurd, refraining from food and liquids between sunrise and sunset displays heroic discipline and stamina. The same can not be said for going shopping with ovepriced linen bags and filling them with unwrapped cross-contaminating meat and veg.



Bless you and your assumptions. I suppose working class people should have no interest in pollutants like plastic.

Waitrose is equally full of plastic - I popped in today because I was near a store and wanted to see what their offering was like. I can't afford the farmers market unless I buy a small quantity of something - like three rashers of bacon to add flavour to a particular dish. I go to a normal market and buy fruit and veg and put it in a fabric bag which I was given. Hopefully the radishes won't cross contaminate the sweet potato or the carrots. 

I am using some plastic but working towards reduction because I'm not sure we have the materials to be totally plastic free (which is a great shame).


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## treefrog (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> Isn't this a rather reactionary middle-class gesture? An option only availalable to those who can afford Waitrose and farmers markets. A bit of ritualised self-denial reflecting the pseudoreligiosity that pervades much of the Green Movement. Furthermore, a pretty unimpressive act of self-denial compared with the masochistic antics of more traditional religion. However absurd, refraining from food and liquids between sunrise and sunset displays heroic discipline and stamina. The same can not be said for going shopping with ovepriced linen bags and filling them with unwrapped cross-contaminating meat and veg.



Given that Plastic Free July here in Aotearoa New Zealand is being spearheaded by Maori activists and has a lot of support across marae and kohanga reo as a backlash against the waste and damage Pakeha attitudes have brought to their land and oceans, I find your argument a bit short-sighted. 

And bringing Ramadan into it? Really?


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

treefrog said:


> And bringing Ramadan into it? Really?



Do you object to the Ramadan comparison? If so can elaborate as to why?


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

treefrog said:


> Given that Plastic Free July here in Aotearoa New Zealand is being spearheaded by Maori activists and has a lot of support across marae and kohanga reo as a backlash against the waste and damage Pakeha attitudes have brought to their land and oceans, I find your argument a bit short-sighted.



Ah venerating the wisdom of the indigenous, even if the indigenous polynesian folk in question only colonised th islands 500 years before the British turned up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Maori settlers themselves within the few hundred years they had the islands to themselves manage to drive plentyof New Zealand wildlife extinct in particular the 11 species of Moa - huge flightless, and presumably tasty birds.
Y
Typically human but, a track record that hardly puts them in a position to criticise others.


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## treefrog (Jul 4, 2015)

Ah, OK. I get you now. Enjoy the rest of your Friday night.


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

treefrog said:


> Ah, OK. I get you now. Enjoy the rest of your Friday night.



It's pity you're so unwilling to argue your case or at least try to demolish mine.


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## boohoo (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> It's pity you're so unwilling to argue your case or at least try to demolish mine.



So are you just looking for an argument? What are your real thoughts on reducing plastic? Do you have any interest in reducing your consumption of things by recycling, repairing and generally not buying what you don't need?


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## boohoo (Jul 4, 2015)

So back to plastic free then... another blog post from my sister...

http://theplasticexperiment.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/day-3-plastic-habit.html


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## Maharani (Jul 4, 2015)

This is why I teally must set up my weigh shop. We used to have them back in the 80's and 90's, where you'd take in your own container and weigh x amount of dried goods from walnuts to washing powder. I loved it. I think it would be a goer again now.


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## Maharani (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> Ah Tupperware, good; clingfilm bad!


Really hard not to use it in a professional kitchen though. I've tried!


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## hegley (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> My biggest problem is with modern supermarket carrier bags that biodegrade before
> I get them home spilling my groceries everywhere.


Most supermarkets sell slightly stronger plastic bags for around 10 or 15 pence, that can be re-used several times. I believe some supermarkets will replace these for free once they become too raggedy for use.
I find it difficult to believe you don't have other bags anyway (from clothes shopping etc) that you could re-use to take your groceries home in. Doesn't solve the plastics issues of course, but then I'm not sure you're really interested in that judging by some of your other replies to this thread.


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## Maharani (Jul 4, 2015)

It wouldn't be difficult to recycle plastic bags. I don't get why we can't.


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## Maharani (Jul 4, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I imagine they might sell from plastic because it is cheaper.
> 
> whatever they are doing, plastic is a pollution issue. Next time you are in lidl, try and find the products that aren't covered in plastic. It's really difficult.


I do agree with Greebo in that plastic is forbidden at large scale, outdoor public events for H and S reasons. I for one wouldn't like to be coshed over the head with a glass chucklehead bottle.


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## Maharani (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> My biggest problem is with modern supermarket carrier bags that biodegrade before
> I get them home spilling my groceries everywhere.


That's cos they don't want you to use em. Take your own.


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

boohoo said:


> So are you just looking for an argument? What are your real thoughts on reducing plastic? Do you have any interest in reducing your consumption of things by recycling, repairing and generally not buying what you don't need?



Firstly, I think that this boycott plastic for a month is a gesture to make yourself feel more worthy rather than to acheive anything practical. Hence, my pointing out that it is the same as fasting in conventional religious traditions, after the month presumably you go back to the old ways feeling more virtuous. If you wish to change yourlifestyle do it in a permanent practical and effective manner. 

I'll stay on the pseudorligiosity angle for a second. This I feel reflected in the strange exceptions made for somehow more worthy traditional plastics andplastic products such as bakelite or tupperware. Representatives of a past age when things were somehow better. Another aspect of this is the patroning and I feel racist "indigenous peoples/noble savages" myth. In reality marginalised and persecuted groups whose poverty and exclusion is then glamorised and mystisised by representatives of the those that have marginalised them inthe first place. Returning to the Maori example given. As I pointed out the maori settlement of New Zealand hqppened around 700 years ago and brought about the extincion of much local fauna. In particular the giant birds who had previously dominated the islands. The maori are clearly  not the primitive and wise natives who've lived in harmony with nature for millenia. They are a peoplem who suffers from: prejudice, poverty and marginalisation and have the right to economic, social and cultural equality.


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## Maharani (Jul 4, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> One of the things I'd like work on is milk containers. I've not seen glass bottles for years


But plastic ones are fully recyclable.


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## Maharani (Jul 4, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Bless you and your assumptions. I suppose working class people should have no interest in pollutants like plastic.
> 
> Waitrose is equally full of plastic - I popped in today because I was near a store and wanted to see what their offering was like. I can't afford the farmers market unless I buy a small quantity of something - like three rashers of bacon to add flavour to a particular dish. I go to a normal market and buy fruit and veg and put it in a fabric bag which I was given. Hopefully the radishes won't cross contaminate the sweet potato or the carrots.
> 
> I am using some plastic but working towards reduction because I'm not sure we have the materials to be totally plastic free (which is a great shame).


Do you think they use plastic to cover veg not only for protection (as they claim) but to make things look shiny? People on marketing do all kinds of weird stuff to sell shit.


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## boohoo (Jul 4, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Do you think they use plastic to cover veg not only for protection (as they claim) but to make things look shiny? People on marketing do all kinds of weird stuff to sell shit.



Wrapped items are more expensive. I do wonder whether it's the chance to make a little bit more profit. (having worked in retail I wouldn't put it pass them)


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## treefrog (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> Firstly, I think that this boycott plastic for a month is a gesture to make yourself feel more worthy rather than to acheive anything practical. Hence, my pointing out that it is the same as fasting in conventional religious traditions, after the month presumably you go back to the old ways feeling more virtuous. If you wish to change yourlifestyle do it in a permanent practical and effective manner.
> 
> I'll stay on the pseudorligiosity angle for a second. This I feel reflected in the strange exceptions made for somehow more worthy traditional plastics andplastic products such as bakelite or tupperware. Representatives of a past age when things were somehow better. Another aspect of this is the patroning and I feel racist "indigenous peoples/noble savages" myth. In reality marginalised and persecuted groups whose poverty and exclusion is then glamorised and mystisised by representatives of the those that have marginalised them inthe first place. Returning to the Maori example given. As I pointed out the maori settlement of New Zealand hqppened around 700 years ago and brought about the extincion of much local fauna. In particular the giant birds who had previously dominated the islands. The maori are clearly  not the primitive and wise natives who've lived in harmony with nature for millenia. They are a peoplem who suffers from: prejudice, poverty and marginalisation and have the right to economic, social and cultural equality.


Please, school me more on tangata whenua affairs.


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## BigTom (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> Isn't this a rather reactionary middle-class gesture?





tim said:


> Another aspect of this is the patroning and I feel racist "indigenous peoples/noble savages" myth. In reality marginalised and persecuted groups whose poverty and exclusion is then glamorised and mystisised by representatives of the those that have marginalised them inthe first place.



So not reactionary middle-class then, if Maori's are spearheading the movement in NZ, and they are marginalised, excluded and poor. I'm pretty sure that's the point Treefrog was making in the first place.


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## boohoo (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> Firstly, I think that this boycott plastic for a month is a gesture to make yourself feel more worthy rather than to acheive anything practical. Hence, my pointing out that it is the same as fasting in conventional religious traditions, after the month presumably you go back to the old ways feeling more virtuous. If you wish to change yourlifestyle do it in a permanent practical and effective manner.



I have cut back on buying things for quite a while - partly because I can't afford it and because I actually don't feel any happier when I buy an item apart from the brief shopping buzz. I have been running clothes swaps on here since 2008 and this has raised my awareness of the quantity of clothes we get through - again I am working towards having a wardrobe I use and not just tons of clothes that never get worn. The plastics issue seems a natural extension and has already changed my habits.

There is nothing wrong with raising awareness of an issue.


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

hegley said:


> Most supermarkets sell slightly stronger plastic bags for around 10 or 15 pence, that can be re-used several times. I believe some supermarkets will replace these for free once they become too raggedy for use.
> I find it difficult to believe you don't have other bags anyway (from clothes shopping etc) that you could re-use to take your groceries home in. Doesn't solve the plastics issues of course, but then I'm not sure you're really interested in that judging by some of your other replies to this thread.



I go clothes shopping about once every three months so am not overwhelmed with bags from fashion retailers and I do tend to lug "bags for life around with me" Presumably, my wash until it disintegrates approach gives me some green brownie points. Anyway a recycled plastic bag is still a plastic bag and this campaigns message is about not using any plastic notreusing plastic

With regard to the "plastic issue" as I have already said I see this campaign as a meaningless diversion - a self-satisfying act of pointless fundementalism. Plastic is a useful material that serves a purpose. In the context discussed focused on here it keeps food fresh for longer and is a lightweight and convenient way to protect goods in transit. As for its evironmental soundness, well the alternatives that have been focused on in this thread are using glass; paper bags and cardboard; and bags made from linen or cotton. These may be more"traditional" materials but their production still has an environmental costs. Being old fashioned doesn't make things more green.


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

treefrog said:


> Please, school me more on tangata whenua affairs.



I'm not from New Zealand and I don't speak Maori so don't actually know what "tangata whenu" means. 

If there's something factually incorrect about what I've said wouldn't it make sense to correct me rather than just make enigmatic comments. If you have acounter argument, why not just present it


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 4, 2015)

Maharani said:


> This is why I teally must set up my weigh shop. We used to have them back in the 80's and 90's, where you'd take in your own container and weigh x amount of dried goods from walnuts to washing powder. I loved it. I think it would be a goer again now.



I remember them - and I'm sure I've seen at least a couple of them in recent years in the small towns around Greater Manchester.  I was always wary of them as you don't know what horrors other shoppers drop into the containers - either accidentally like scabs or nits falling off them, or deliberately.


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## Maharani (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> I'm not from New Zealand and I don't speak Maori so don't actually know what "tangata whenu" means.
> 
> If there's something factually incorrect about what I've said wouldn't it make sense to correct me rather than just make enigmatic comments. If you have acounter argument, why not just present it


Do you have a search engine on your pc/phone/laptop/tablet? I'm assuming you do to use this. 

A simple Google search would tell you:


*Tangata whenua* (Māori pronunciation: [ˈtaŋata ˈfɛnʉ.a]) is a Māori term of the indigenous peoples of New Zealand and literally means "people of the land", from *tangata*, 'people' and *whenua* 'land'.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 4, 2015)

Maharani said:


> It wouldn't be difficult to recycle plastic bags. I don't get why we can't.



You can - at least in bigger supermarket branches that have bins to chuck them in.  Sainsbury's have them at least - not sure about other chains.


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## Maharani (Jul 4, 2015)

This is quite posh but I like:

http://www.gizmag.com/original-unverpackt-germany-waste-free-supermarket/32376/


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## Maharani (Jul 4, 2015)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I remember them - and I'm sure I've seen at least a couple of them in recent years in the small towns around Greater Manchester.  I was always wary of them as you don't know what horrors other shoppers drop into the containers - either accidentally like scabs or nits falling off them, or deliberately.


That's silly! Ok, well my shop would make people wear recycled and recyclable gloves to scoop their goods.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 4, 2015)

Maharani said:


> That's silly! Ok, well my shop would make people wear recycled and recyclable gloves to scoop their goods.



A pound of scabs please?   

*shudder*


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 4, 2015)

I have quite a few of the very strong long-life bags that I think are already made from recycled plastics, and they last forever.  A lot better to carry loads of shopping home too, compared to the disposable cheese-wire ones you get for free in the supermarkets.  Although sometimes I will have to use those, particularly if I've popped into the shop to buy something unplanned, like on my way back from somewhere, but I try and minimise that where I can.


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## StoneRoad (Jul 4, 2015)

My considered opinion is that going fully "plastic-free" is almost impossible. Plastics take many forms and pervade society/economy and the environment. The spanner in the works is that some plastics are nearly indispensable as the alternatives are too costly or just not available. What you can do is reduce/reuse/recycle them as much as practicable and encourage others to do the same.


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## treefrog (Jul 4, 2015)

StoneRoad said:


> My considered opinion is that going fully "plastic-free" is almost impossible. Plastics take many forms and pervade society/economy and the environment. The spanner in the works is that some plastics are nearly indispensable as the alternatives are too costly or just not available. What you can do is reduce/reuse/recycle them as much as practicable and encourage others to do the same.


Absolutely. Personally, a challenge like this is a real eye-opener. I'm in awe of the people who go hard-out on living zero plastic lives, credit to them as it must be bloody hard!


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jul 4, 2015)

StoneRoad said:


> My considered opinion is that going fully "plastic-free" is almost impossible. Plastics take many forms and pervade society/economy and the environment. The spanner in the works is that some plastics are nearly indispensable as the alternatives are too costly or just not available. What you can do is reduce/reuse/recycle them as much as practicable and encourage others to do the same.



Indeed - it is all-pervasive so unless you lived a rustic life, growing your own food and with no modern technology you just wouldn't be able to do it.  Even purchasing something made of paper is highly likely to involve plastic somewhere in the supply chain/manufacturing process.  And you would have to never become ill as drugs are pretty much all wrapped in plastic in some form.


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## treefrog (Jul 4, 2015)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Indeed - it is all-pervasive so unless you lived a rustic life, growing your own food and with no modern technology you just wouldn't be able to do it.  Even purchasing something made of paper is highly likely to involve plastic somewhere in the supply chain/manufacturing process.  And you would have to never become ill as drugs are pretty much all wrapped in plastic in some form.


It's about all the pointless disposable stuff though, innit. I don't know what it's like in the UK these days but here the amount of cheap plastic crap that gets used for five minutes then dumped is horrendous. A life like the one we've come to enjoy without any plastic would be almost impossible, but cutting the plastic coffee lids and straws and plastic bags and novelty gewgaws really isn't too much of a stretch, surely....

ETA Plastic Free Australia gives you the option of signing up to do without the "Big Four": coffee cups/ takeaway containers, straws, bottles and bags. And the focus is firmly on the disposable, single use plastic...


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jul 4, 2015)

treefrog said:


> It's about all the pointless disposable stuff though, innit. I don't know what it's like in the UK these days but here the amount of cheap plastic crap that gets used for five minutes then dumped is horrendous. A life like the one we've come to enjoy without any plastic would be almost impossible, but cutting the plastic coffee lids and straws and plastic bags and novelty gewgaws really isn't too much of a stretch, surely....
> 
> ETA Plastic Free Australia gives you the option of signing up to do without the "Big Four": coffee cups/ takeaway containers, straws, bottles and bags. And the focus is firmly on the disposable, single use plastic...



Yeah, I agree about the ridiculous amount of crap that is used.  It is absolutely everywhere, and packaging within packaging is very annoying - like a cable in a plastic bag inside a box - why?	

My pet hate it that evil hard clear plastic that entombs all sorts of techy products - that you can't open manually and have to hack at it madly with scissors/knives and hope you don't lacerate yourself.  Why on earth do they need to seal it into that awful plastic - it must be incredibly difficult to open for those with problems with their hands or grip.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jul 4, 2015)

More recently I've noticed some food retailers, notably M & S, are starting to use more cellulose for the windows of food boxes (like pies) which is a welcome development.  It does the job just as well, and is biodegradable and sustainable.


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## StoneRoad (Jul 4, 2015)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Yeah, I agree about the ridiculous amount of crap that is used.  It is absolutely everywhere, and packaging within packaging is very annoying - like a cable in a plastic bag inside a box - why?
> 
> My pet hate it that evil hard clear plastic that entombs all sorts of techy products - that you can't open manually and have to hack at it madly with scissors/knives and hope you don't lacerate yourself.  Why on earth do they need to seal it into that awful plastic - it must be incredibly difficult to open for those with problems with their hands or grip.



Suspect that use is intended as security against "casual" theft - a serious attempt needs a box-cutter  and a bit of time ...


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 4, 2015)

StoneRoad said:


> Suspect that use is intended as security against "casual" theft - a serious attempt needs a box-cutter  and a bit of time ...



And they could just follow the trail of blood through the shop to find the culprit.


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## Callie (Jul 4, 2015)

I'm sure there is a weigh and save in croydon but all weighed goods go into.plastic bags. I guess you could take reusable containers. It must save on packaging overall.

It's amazing how much unnecessary packaging some items have. 

What is all this stuff about cross contamination of unwrapped items tim? I'm not sure what you mean.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2015)

farmerbarleymow said:


> More recently I've noticed some food retailers, notably M & S, are starting to use more cellulose for the windows of food boxes (like pies) which is a welcome development.  It does the job just as well, and is biodegradable and sustainable.



Back in the day cellophane got used a lot more than polythene, but got set aside because it doesn't have the same properties as polythene. Sad really, as it's not only biodegradable but compostable.


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## hegley (Jul 4, 2015)

farmerbarleymow said:


> You can - at least in bigger supermarket branches that have bins to chuck them in.  Sainsbury's have them at least - not sure about other chains.


What I don't understand about this is why they aren't AFAIK part of kerbside recycling? Lots of different plastics go into people's recycling bins but bags have to go back to a supermarket - seems a bit random. 
Anyone shed any light?


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## 8115 (Jul 4, 2015)

By the way, I wouldn't take it as a given that glass, even recycled, has a lighter environmental impact than plastic thrown away.


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Do you have a search engine on your pc/phone/laptop/tablet? I'm assuming you do to use this.
> 
> A simple Google search would tell you:
> 
> ...



Yes, but it makes sense when debating with someone to use language they can understand rather than foreign phrases they have to run of to Google for a translation.


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## tufty79 (Jul 4, 2015)

Maharani said:


> But plastic ones are fully recyclable.


Oh yeah 
Sorry, my stupid's been showing more than usual recently


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## Greebo (Jul 4, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Oh yeah
> Sorry, my stupid's been showing more than usual recently


You're not stupid - it's easy to forget how widely recyclable some types of plastic have become.


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## StoneRoad (Jul 4, 2015)

One of the problems with kerbside plastic recycling is the difference between areas as to the acceptable plastics. Some areas don't accept certain varieties ! I have to be careful comparing Northumberland and North Wales, for example.


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## boohoo (Jul 4, 2015)

Maharani said:


> This is why I teally must set up my weigh shop. We used to have them back in the 80's and 90's, where you'd take in your own container and weigh x amount of dried goods from walnuts to washing powder. I loved it. I think it would be a goer again now.



Have you been here?

http://fareshares.org.uk/

It's at the Elephant. I wonder how much effort it would take to set up something similar in deep south London.


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## boohoo (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> I go clothes shopping about once every three months so am not overwhelmed with bags from fashion retailers and I do tend to lug "bags for life around with me" Presumably, my wash until it disintegrates approach gives me some green brownie points. Anyway a recycled plastic bag is still a plastic bag and this campaigns message is about not using any plastic notreusing plastic
> 
> With regard to the "plastic issue" as I have already said I see this campaign as a meaningless diversion - a self-satisfying act of pointless fundementalism. Plastic is a useful material that serves a purpose. In the context discussed focused on here it keeps food fresh for longer and is a lightweight and convenient way to protect goods in transit. As for its evironmental soundness, well the alternatives that have been focused on in this thread are using glass; paper bags and cardboard; and bags made from linen or cotton. These may be more"traditional" materials but their production still has an environmental costs. Being old fashioned doesn't make things more green.



But it's not about being old fashioned. Cotton uses the most energy to create. A few years ago I heard a story that recyclers were suggesting that we shouldn't because it takes up so much energy.

My look at this isn't just about consumption of plastic but consumption of everything. Plastic isn't all bad - it is our 'one use' attitude to things that needs to change.  Modern people in the west are just plain greedy and encouraged to be that way.

I would like you to suggest how I should be doing thing - perhaps I should take up littering and fly tipping.


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## boohoo (Jul 4, 2015)

Callie said:


> I'm sure there is a weigh and save in croydon but all weighed goods go into.plastic bags. I guess you could take reusable containers. It must save on packaging overall.
> 
> It's amazing how much unnecessary packaging some items have.
> 
> What is all this stuff about cross contamination of unwrapped items tim? I'm not sure what you mean.



The weighted place only seems to do sweets, nuts, sugar and some cereal.


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## boohoo (Jul 4, 2015)

So on my plastic reduction shop....

I got a jar of olive and I am going to try and marinate them myself!
All my veg was plastic free though I didn't get any cucumbers - they have gone back up to 50p!  (although Lidl's have gone down to 22p!)
I bought some cornmeal to make some cornbread - I'm going to try and make some things like this to reduce having to buy bread wrapped in plastic.
Yesterday bought two large tubs of yoghurt to make into little individual tubs - yes still plastic but reducing the number used.
Tinned fruit, vegs and pulses.


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

BigTom said:


> So not reactionary middle-class then, if Maori's are spearheading the movement in NZ, and they are marginalised, excluded and poor. I'm pretty sure that's the point Treefrog was making in the first place.



Well posters here are going on about Waitrose and Farmers markets which strikes me, rightly or wrongly as an indication of British middle-classness. As indeed does a commitment to marinade one's own olives.

As to the situation in New Zealand, well, l would suggest that boycotting plastic is not the most effective way for an underclass to obtain justice and that alternative tactics will be needed to obtain: equal access to education; a decent standard of living and reducing the disproportionate number of young Maoris languishing in New Zealand jails


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## treefrog (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> Well posters here are going on about Waitrose and Farmers markets which strikes me, rightly or wrongly as an indication of British middle-classness. As indeed does a commitment to marinade one's own olives.
> 
> As to the situation in New Zealand, well, l would suggest that boycotting plastic is not the most effective way for an underclass to obtain justice and that alternative tactics will be needed to obtain: equal access to education; a decent standard of living and reducing the disproportionate number of young Maoris languishing in New Zealand jails



I am sure a small, grassroots indigenous-led campaign on an island 20000km away will be very interested in hearing a Pakeha man from the UKs opinion on what they should and should not be doing. I'll pass on your suggestions


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## twentythreedom (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> wrongly


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

treefrog said:


> I am sure a small, grassroots indigenous-led campaign on an island 20000km away will be very interested in hearing a Pakeha man from the UKs opinion on what they should and should not be doing. I'll pass on your suggestions



Good, Class struggle has no boundaries Comrade!


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Tinned fruit, vegs and pulses.



An interesting comment, but are you for or against tinnned food?


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

treefrog said:


> I am sure a small, grassroots indigenous-led campaign on an island 20000km away will be very interested in hearing a Pakeha man from the UKs opinion on what they should and should not be doing.



Can one be a Pakeha if one has no New Zealand antecedants and little desire to visit let alone emigrate? Google suggests not.


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## treefrog (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> Good, Class struggle has no boundaries Comrade!


Your colonialism is showing.


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

treefrog said:


> Your colonialism is showing.



Is it?  It would be nice to know in what way I am  colonialist, because personally I don't think I am.


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## treefrog (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> Is it?  It would be nice to know in what way I am  colonialist, because personally I don't think I am.


Oh sweetie. If you're so busy being self-righteous you can't see how your attitude in your previous posts smacks of colonial thinking then I highly doubt anything I say will change that. I know you really, really want to drag me into a fight, not a discussion, because clearly there's not enough going on on a summer Saturday night for you to do, but I'm afraid you'll have to find someone else to play with.

I hope your weekend picks up.


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## boohoo (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> Well posters here are going on about Waitrose and Farmers markets which strikes me, rightly or wrongly as an indication of British middle-classness. As indeed does a commitment to marinade one's own olives.



ha ha!  I didn't know marinating olives was a middle class thing - I will tell the Turkish shop next time I go there. I am looking at price over and above the name of the place that I go to. What do you think about hanging out at the reduced section to get marked down food? middle or working class? How about getting food out of the bins at the back? Working or middle class? I need your opinion on other foods I am eating - I had cucumber - is it middle or working class - I cut it into vertical strips rather than horizontal - is that middle or working class? These are important and valid questions.

Asides from that, you are helping to keep this thread going. Thank you for caring.


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

treefrog said:


> Oh sweetie. If you're so busy being self-righteous you can't see how your attitude in your previous posts smacks of colonial thinking then I highly doubt anything I say will change that. I know you really, really want to drag me into a fight, not a discussion, because clearly there's not enough going on on a summer Saturday night for you to do, but I'm afraid you'll have to find someone else to play with.
> 
> I hope your weekend picks up.



A discussion is actually what I seek, but in your posts both today and yesterday you react to my challenges to your attitudes and opinions not with an argument by trivial personalisation.

If your right why not wipe the floor with me.


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

boohoo said:


> ha ha!  I didn't know marinating olives was a middle class thing - I will tell the Turkish shop next time I go there. I am looking at price over and above the name of the place that I go to. What do you think about hanging out at the reduced section to get marked down food? middle or working class? How about getting food out of the bins at the back? Working or middle class? I need your opinion on other foods I am eating - I had cucumber - is it middle or working class - I cut it into vertical strips rather than horizontal - is that middle or working class? These are important and valid questions.
> 
> Asides from that, you are helping to keep this thread going. Thank you for caring.




Dumpster diving/freeganism behaviour typically associated with alienated trustifarians. Waiting in Waitrose for discounts suggests that your middle class and mean or on your uppers.

I would also point out that in your post about Waitrose you stated that your were deliberately searching for "High end" products. In my opinion that says something about you.


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## boohoo (Jul 4, 2015)

tim said:


> Dumpster diving/freeganism behaviour typically associated with alienated trustifarians. Waiting in Waitrose for discounts suggests that your middle class and mean or on your uppers.
> 
> I would also point out that in your post about Waitrose you stated that your were deliberately searching for "High end" products. In my opinion that says something about you.



The elderly lady picking up fruit/veg thrown out was a typical trustifarian. I do find the discounted sausages at waitrose are a better quality that Tesco. Lidl don't do much discounting. I was searching for high end products so that I could ask mummy and daddy to shout me some cash so I could by a better class of food.  You are funny, Tim.  I am so glad that you have pointed out my middle classness. I will sleep well tonight.


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## tim (Jul 4, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I am so glad that you have pointed out my middle classness. I will sleep well tonight.



The bourgeoisie never sleep well, for in their dreams they are shown their fate.


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## treefrog (Jul 5, 2015)

So, anyway. Back to the thread.

Weekly food shop today, managed to be pretty plastic free but only cause the supermarket has wee paper bags for the self-serve stuff. Trying to do without plastic bags in our kitchen bin as well, which I've done before and isn't that terrible as long as you wash the bin out more regularly. Hoping that with less/no plastic in it and our pretty comprehensive recycling scheme in Auckland it'll be mostly food scraps anyway. Council are introducing a food scraps collection service but not for another few months...


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## boohoo (Jul 5, 2015)

tim said:


> The bourgeoisie never sleep well, for in their dreams they are shown their fate.



Does that cover erotic dreams?


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## tim (Jul 5, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Does that cover erotic dreams?



Only if your erotic fantasies involve the use and abuse of copious amounts of plastic.


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## spanglechick (Jul 6, 2015)

glass as an alternative for, say, cider - is problematic, because of the extra weight. extra weight = increased fuel for haulage (and indeed, for getting it homr from the local retailer).

environmental substitutions are often a matter of reducing one kind of pollution and replacing it with another.


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## treefrog (Jul 6, 2015)

spanglechick said:


> glass as an alternative for, say, cider - is problematic, because of the extra weight. extra weight = increased fuel for haulage (and indeed, for getting it homr from the local retailer).
> 
> environmental substitutions are often a matter of reducing one kind of pollution and replacing it with another.


True, but as I said further up the emphasis (at least in Australia/Nz) has been on disposable plastics and the stuff that really doesn't need to be used. 

Like a lot of these trying something for a month campaigns it's about taking the time to look at how we interact with something in more depth. Personally, seeing how much completely pointless plastic is attached to everyday stuff is making me consider my purchases and consumption. I'm talking to my students about what changes they can make (my y7s were horrified when they counted up the 62 bits  of plastic waste they'd make in a single lunchtime). Sometimes all it takes is a bit of time to really think about what we need to buy and what we're buying to waste if that makes any sense? Massive changes in habit don't come about as a result of one tiny campaign any more than Dry July puts breweries out of business, but like Dry July it gives people an opportunity to step back and consider their relationship to something fundamental to their everyday lives, at least in my opinion.


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## xenon (Jul 6, 2015)

Well it's not like I collect the stuff. Awareness, yes fine. But I don't think we're going out of our way to buy things in plastic. Of course we should all be growing our own vegetables in our allotments eating a ve gan lifestyle cycling to work, turning off our computers and fridge freezers, and..   Fuck that. Kill me now.


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## treefrog (Jul 6, 2015)

Edited because it's actually not worth the effort.


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## boohoo (Jul 6, 2015)

xenon said:


> Well it's not like I collect the stuff. Awareness, yes fine. But I don't think we're going out of our way to buy things in plastic. Of course we should all be growing our own vegetables in our allotments eating a ve gan lifestyle cycling to work, turning off our computers and fridge freezers, and..   Fuck that. Kill me now.



Next time you go food shopping, look at all the plastic around your food. Try and buy your veg in a paper bag - that usually isn't too impossible. Use a water bottle instead of buying bottled water. Two fairly easy changes to make.


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## Greebo (Jul 6, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Next time you go food shopping, look at all the plastic around your food. Try and buy your veg in a paper bag - that usually isn't too impossible. Use a water bottle instead of buying bottled water. Two fairly easy changes to make.


<pedant>impossible is an absolute value - something can't be too impossible, any more than you can be slightly pregnant or a bit dead.</pedant>

And the water bottle's usually made of what?  Plastic!  Perhaps a different type, but even so.

BTW paper bags might be available in some (not all) greengrocers) or from some market stalls, but not all.  Try getting your fruit & veg in a paper bag from any supermarket, and you'll probably have to resort to buying it loose and completely unbagged.


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## xenon (Jul 6, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Next time you go food shopping, look at all the plastic around your food. Try and buy your veg in a paper bag - that usually isn't too impossible. Use a water bottle instead of buying bottled water. Two fairly easy changes to make.


I do all that already TBF. Will take paper bags over plastic for vegetables. deliquescing mushrooms in plastic bags are rank. IIRC paper bags are actually more costly to produce, in terms of environmental impact than plastic, at least some of the time. There's too much superfluous packaging for sure though. Don't know if they still do but the Spar type shops always pissed me off with there 2 potatos / apples wrapped in clinfilm and on a polystyrene tray. It was the nearest shop other than Tescos at the time.


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## xenon (Jul 6, 2015)

The obligatory quick Google.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/shortcuts/2011/dec/20/paper-plastic-bags-which-best


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## BigTom (Jul 6, 2015)

xenon said:


> I do all that already TBF. Will take paper bags over plastic for vegetables. deliquescing mushrooms in plastic bags are rank. IIRC paper bags are actually more costly to produce, in terms of environmental impact than plastic, at least some of the time. There's too much superfluous packaging for sure though. Don't know if they still do but the Spar type shops always pissed me off with there 2 potatos / apples wrapped in clinfilm and on a polystyrene tray. It was the nearest shop other than Tescos at the time.



yeah you still get stuff like that, co-op sell individual broccolis wrapped in cling film, I just pick up an unwrapped loose one, put it in my basket and then in my bag, since it's going to get washed (probably) and cooked anyway.


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## hegley (Jul 6, 2015)

BigTom said:


> yeah you still get stuff like that, co-op sell individual broccolis wrapped in cling film, I just pick up an unwrapped loose one, put it in my basket and then in my bag, since it's going to get washed (probably) and cooked anyway.


Shrink-wrapped broccoli seems to be a relatively new thing - and usually sold alongside loose broccoli so I'm not sure why it's been introduced. Was in Sainsburys at the w/end looking for a pomegranate and they only had them in twos on a tray and plasticised - arghhh.


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## boohoo (Jul 6, 2015)

More stuff from my sister's blog:

http://theplasticexperiment.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/day-6-plastic-seventies-bathroom-in.html


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## Yuwipi Woman (Jul 6, 2015)

About a year ago I threw a fit because I realized that all of my garbage is plastic packaging.  All of it.  The food waste gets composted.  The bottles and cans get recycled and I'm left with one bag of plastic wrapping.  Its frustrating that there doesn't seem to be a way to say no to it all.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 15, 2015)

How's it going boohoo? 

I'm old enough to recall shopping before plastic was so widely wasted. My gran could still buy fresh butter by the ounce or ham by the slice in a piece of grease proof paper. She shopped every day and never owned a fridge. Milk, beer and pop used to come in reusable glass bottles, usually you paid a deposit on. It was returned, sterilised and reused. There were no tetra packs and ready made convenience food didn't exist. Its hard to say its all good or all bad.

What I especially hate is the over wrapping in plastic of non food items. A curtail rail or something like a set of spoons does not need to be vacuum packed in plastic as they so often are. 

In the 80s I used to really resist buying over-wrapped food from supermarkets, but its become more and more difficult over the years. I like that Lidl has big recycling bins at the checkout so you can throw excess packaging away before you take it home - they must see what is routinely discarded and a hopefully this feeds back to how they source goods in the first place.  I still cook food from stratch with fresh raw ingredients mostly bought at local market and butcher - but I know this isn't possible for everyone/all the time. 



tim said:


> Isn't this a rather reactionary middle-class gesture?


No.  How easy it is for you to mock. 
The over use of plastics is a world wide problem on land and in the oceans. It blights poorer areas of the world. It is a waste of a non renewable, rapidly dimishing oil resource - what a terrible legacy to leave for future generations. Have you got any positive suggestions at all? 

In this materialist, capitalist world we have to endure, how we shop is one of the few powers we have left.


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## tim (Jul 15, 2015)

Beware the nostalgia for the discomfort and squalor of the past. Did your gran really enjoy not having a fridge or spending her days shopping for meagre portions of food wrapped in grease proof paper or, even worse, newspaper and often on the verge of putrefaction. I can't remember much nostalgia in my family for those fridgeless days. This little film whilst amusing might remind you how squalid for the middle classes let alone the working classes once was


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## treefrog (Jul 16, 2015)

*facepalm*


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## boohoo (Jul 16, 2015)

friendofdorothy I have been making more food from scratch to reduce my use of plastic - so I made cornbread to eat with my soup (thanks to Greebo giving me a bread tin). I can get my veg from tescos usually all unwrapped but I noticed the wrapped bags are now cheaper (it use to be the other way around). I think this is because they are making you by a large quantity.

I've not manage to tackle the cheese/meat problem (also not sure how to get around the fact I buy a fair amount of stuff from the discount section).

Also when I need something quickly to take with me - like the other day - it's difficult to find things not wrapped in plastic.

My sister has done a few more blog posts here:

http://theplasticexperiment.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/days-8-910-and-11-yikes.html


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## boohoo (Jul 16, 2015)

tim said:


> Beware the nostalgia for the discomfort and squalor of the past. Did your gran really enjoy not having a fridge or spending her days shopping for meagre portions of food wrapped in grease proof paper or, even worse, newspaper and often on the verge of putrefaction. I can't remember much nostalgia in my family for those fridgeless days. This little film whilst amusing might remind you how squalid for the middle classes let alone the working classes once was




Not really nostalgia for the past - it's observing how we functioned without all this plastic.


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## Greebo (Jul 16, 2015)

tim said:


> <snip> Did your gran really enjoy not having a fridge or spending her days shopping for meagre portions of food wrapped in grease proof paper or, even worse, newspaper and often on the verge of putrefaction. I can't remember much nostalgia in my family for those fridgeless days. This little film whilst amusing might remind you how squalid for the middle classes let alone the working classes once was


The fact that that those cases made the news should tell you that food poisoning then, as now, wasn't an everyday occurrence.


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## tim (Jul 16, 2015)

Greebo said:


> The fact that that those cases made the news should tell you that food poisoning then, as now, wasn't an everyday occurrence.



It's not a newreel, though, but a public information film commenting onthe prevelance of food poisoning in the late forties and highlighting how lax hygene was. Including for the fridgeless majority the dangers of  slices of corned beef bought is grease proof paper from a filthy, but cheery local butcher and left in the meat safe overnight. 

It shows how lucky we are to be able to buy and transport our foodstuffs in sealed sterile containers.

Watch it! It's glorious little black comedy about the squallor of the era. There's a BFI review which concludes "if the standards shown here are anything to go by, it's a miracle that anybody at all survived the 1940's"


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## Greebo (Jul 16, 2015)

tim said:


> <snip> Watch it! It's glorious little black comedy about the squallor of the era. There's a BFI review which concludes "if the standards shown here are anything to go by, it's a miracle that anybody at all survived the 1940's"


No.  Limited data allowance, you overprivileged twit.


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## tim (Jul 16, 2015)

Greebo said:


> No.  Limited data allowance, you overprivileged twit.




Pay as you go, so no data allowance at all, just as well as my mobile doesn't do the internet. Still I only need to charge it up once a week. Rent includes free wi fi and the occasional rodent burrowing through the crumbling walls. A state of relative priviledge, I suppose.


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## Greebo (Jul 16, 2015)

tim said:


> Pay as you go, so no data allowance at all, just as well as my mobile doesn't do the internet. <snip> Rent includes free wi fi and the occasional rodent burrowing through the crumbling walls. A state of relative priviledge, I suppose.


You get free wi fi, I don't.  A smartphone is neither needed nor owned by me.  

You still sound smug, something you might want to change.


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## treefrog (Jul 17, 2015)

Tim, do you work for a cling film company or something?


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## tim (Jul 17, 2015)

[QUOTE"="Greebo, post: 14011782, member: 2834"]You get free wi fi, I don't.  A smartphone is neither needed nor owned by me. 

You still sound smug, something you might want to change.[/QUOTE]

Who doesn't sound smug online? And who isn't irritated by the smuggness of others?


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## Greebo (Jul 17, 2015)

Just out of curiosity, I was wondering what people did before plastic bags were around to cover their bread dough as it rises.  

According to Eliza Acton, a warm thick cloth was used - she didn't say that it was moistened, nor that the top of the dough was floured, and yet I'm sure that one of thoe two options must have been used to stop the cloth sticking.


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## treefrog (Jul 17, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Just out of curiosity, I was wondering what people did before plastic bags were around to cover their bread dough as it rises.
> 
> According to Eliza Acton, a warm thick cloth was used - she didn't say that it was moistened, nor that the top of the dough was floured, and yet I'm sure that one of thoe two options must have been used to stop the cloth sticking.


I don't cover our bread while it's proving, just leave it in the airing cupboard....


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## tim (Jul 17, 2015)

treefrog said:


> Tim, do you work for a cling film company or something?



No I teach the dimmer ofspring of the internationale bourgeousie to pass formulaic language exams. This enables them to squander their parents ill-earned cash doing dodgy Masters degrees at fourth rate British universities.


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## Greebo (Jul 17, 2015)

treefrog said:


> I don't cover our bread while it's proving, just leave it in the airing cupboard....


No airing cupboard.  

Have sometimes resorted to using the microwave oven (without switching it on) to keep cold air off it.


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## Greebo (Jul 17, 2015)

tim said:


> No I teach the dimmer ofspring of the internationale bourgeousie to pass formulaic language exams. This enables them to squander their parents ill-earned cash doing dodgy Masters degrees at fourth rate British universities.


Wow - one punctuation* error and three spelling mistakes in just the first sentence.  Talk about those who can't, teach.  

Edited to add - I realise there was one typo in my reply; being dogtired and more than slightly vexed doesn't improve my typing.  OTOH I don't even try to teach languages.


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## kittyP (Jul 17, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Yer but...  We use a heck of a lot of plastic when we don't need to. do you need your cucumber in plastic? I'm sure we could use some plastic just not in such a disposable manner and with solutions to reusing it.



I am aware I am jumping in at the beginning but you are right, cucumber does not need to be in plastic. 
But, if you can't get to a market at the right time then you are relying on supermarkets for your fruit, veg and salad stuffs which pretty much all come in plastic. 
It seems to be only potatoes that you can get loose in my local supermarket. 

I would be very up for reducing my use of plastic in any way I can but my shopping habits are limited sometimes my my mental health stuff (avoiding very crowded areas at certain times of day) and I do wash and recycle everything I can appropriately.


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## kittyP (Jul 17, 2015)

treefrog said:


> I don't cover our bread while it's proving, just leave it in the airing cupboard....



I always save the occasional plastic bag we end up with for something like this althogh we 99% of the time have reusable biodegradable bags for shopping. 

Although we have been thankful of the small stash of plastic bags we have very recently as badgers has a foot in plaster and it has been raining on his way to work a few times.


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## kittyP (Jul 17, 2015)

Greebo said:


> No airing cupboard.
> 
> Have sometimes resorted to using the microwave oven (without switching it on) to keep cold air off it.



I have only made bread by hand when the weather is warm as A. We don't have an airing cupboard either and B. My joints won't let me kneed dough in the colder weather. 

But when the weather is clement, I cupboard with a cloth has worked but not consistently


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## Greebo (Jul 17, 2015)

kittyP said:


> <snip> badgers has a foot in plaster and it has been raining on his way to work a few times.


(((Badgers))))  Ouch!  I hope it heals up asap.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 17, 2015)

tim said:


> Beware the nostalgia for the discomfort and squalor of the past. Did your gran really enjoy not having a fridge or spending her days shopping for meagre portions of food wrapped in grease proof paper or, even worse, newspaper and often on the verge of putrefaction. I can't remember much nostalgia in my family for those fridgeless days. This little film whilst amusing might remind you how squalid for the middle classes let alone the working classes once was




There was episode of Doctors Finlay's case book with a similar story line in the 60s.

I recall my grandmothers shopping and cooking habits with great fondness - no discomfort or squalor involved. Does that make me nostalgic?
It was just a different way of organising food, a different way of life. It was ok. Grans and mums generations were well educated in hygiene and how to buy fresh food. Gran had relationships with the people in the shops/market/farms where she bought fresh food. People lived near shops, she lived in the centre of town less than 100yards from the main shopping street, but every corner had a shop back then. She liked shopping everyday, it was what most women did, it was sociable.  Gran had a fridge in the 1970's that someone in the family gave her but she refused to plug it in (she was none too keen on this modern electricity) and used it as a cupboard, and carried on shopping fresh everyday until about 1980.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Jul 17, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> How's it going boohoo?
> 
> I'm old enough to recall shopping before plastic was so widely wasted. My gran could still buy fresh butter by the ounce or ham by the slice in a piece of grease proof paper. She shopped every day and never owned a fridge. Milk, beer and pop used to come in reusable glass bottles, usually you paid a deposit on. It was returned, sterilised and reused. There were no tetra packs and ready made convenience food didn't exist. Its hard to say its all good or all bad.
> 
> ...



I remember many of the same ways of coping with life.  I'm old enough to remember when jam came in jars you could wash out to use for juice glasses.  We felt so fancy with our complete set of pattern glass that looked like cut crystal.  And, patterned flour sacks that you could use to make clothing and quilts.  I also remember spending hours and hours in the summer canning corn and beans.  I remember going out to the chicken house for a chicken to be killed for dinner, while my grandmother rolled out egg noodles on the kitchen table.  I know it wasn't all a walk in the park.  It was labor intensive, hot, and uncomfortable some of the time, but very little was wasted.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 20, 2015)

With all our modern plastic and fridges, food poisoning still exists. I've no idea how many cases now or then, would be interested if anyone knows the figures. 

I know there was some talk a while ago that anti bacterial plastic chopping boards and cleaning sprays didn't help as they gave people a false sense of security while they were being sloppy about hygiene.


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