# Rudolf Steiner/Waldorf schools



## alef (Nov 22, 2004)

I've just been reading this excellent site, http://www.waldorfcritics.org , which pretty much agrees with all that I discovered upon talking in depth to friends who both went to Steiner schools and later read a lot into Anthroposophy. Curious what others have experienced, or even just to find out how much people know about this philosophy/cult.


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## General Ludd (Nov 22, 2004)

It's always struck me as new age liberal hippy wank. Then again his Steiner's stuff on education doesn't ever appear to me to be any worse than State-funded education given that State education will likely lead to emphasis on a curriculum that serves the State, i.e., one mainly driven by the needs of capital. 

For libertarian/anarchist education Ferrer is where it's at.


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## reallyoldhippy (Nov 22, 2004)

Can't answer the poll.  'Cos Steiner education is better than the state system, but that's not saying much, is it? I like the way they don't push kids to read/write (especially writing) til kids have lost their milk teeth (usually, but not always 7 years). Like the emphasis on creativity, arts, music, outdoors stuff. Can be a bit doctrinaire, though.


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## ewok (Nov 22, 2004)

great idea, i like the early years stuff. some friends brought their kids up that way and moved to county clare in cork where it had a huge school. great philosopht but what happens when the kids have to enter the real world was my thought


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## pilchardman (Nov 23, 2004)

New Age, loopy, liberal, Spiritual-fascist, bizarro pish.  But, as ROH says, better thann the state system.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 23, 2004)

fruitcake territory, and all the people i know who went to steiner ended up with a fair amount of baggage that i (but not they) would link to their formative years.

my views on steiner are somewhat coloured by having a wadical (for want of a better word) friend who is paying to put her kid through steiner even though she yakked on for years about how fucked up it made her baby father (who went through steiner) - she won't even contemplate the idea of putting him in a state school on the grounds that 'all state schools are crap' 

things like this really do make us revert to class don't they...


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## oddjob (Nov 23, 2004)

steiner is the educational equivalent of scientology


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## pogofish (Nov 23, 2004)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> New Age, loopy, liberal, Spiritual-fascist, bizarro pish.  But, as ROH says, better thann the state system.



Bollocks!

From around age 7 to 11, I went to a Steiner school & virtually grew-up around a large Steiner community.  I have the highest respect for them & their intentions.  There is no comparison with the State system.  If you want your kids to pass exams, the state would probably be best but if you want an education that comes into its own later-on in life then Steiner would be the one to go for.

Yes, there is a degree of new-age & hippy bollox but that was no bad thing (maan!  ) at the time.  I had before then been written-off by the state system, diagnosed as Dyslexic, made to feel like a complete & utter waste of time, space & effort to those who were too christian to allow a left-hander to learn or have any quality of life.  They then labeled me uneducatable & remaindered me to the local Deaf School where I was expected to play with soft things for the rest of my education.  When faced with what they had permitted, the education authority stuck its head in the sand & "found" me a 95% grant to attend a Steiner (but not a Waldorf) school rather than clean-up their own mess.

I must have been a particularly difficult & trying kid with many problems to overcome but they put-up with me & made the effort nobody else would & helped me considerably in my time there.  My life around the community also helped me further to keep perspective once I returned to secondary education.


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## oddjob (Nov 23, 2004)

saw the answer


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## i_hate_beckham (Nov 23, 2004)

A lot of my friends were put in the local Steiner and all of them came out as weed smoking kids with little education. Most of them had to go to the Art College here or face redoing there GCSE's. I came out of my school with good GCSE's and then became a stoner, but iat least it meant i could my A levels straight off without repeating.


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## pogofish (Nov 23, 2004)

i_hate_beckham said:
			
		

> all of them came out as weed smoking with little education.



OK, I hold my hands-up to the weed-smoking! 

Little education by whose standards though, bits of paper?  Shortly after my leaving school, I'd taken off to Switzerland & ended-up working for the UN & with my own flat.  The narrow-purposed & minded State Comp I attended before then didn't prepare me for that.  AFAIC my *real* education began then.  After a couple of years of travelling about, I found college entry quite easy & although I meandered a bit through life, I've managed to have an interesting enough time that may have contributed & helped people.  Most of the kids I went to the Steiner school with have done the same.


 Except for one asshole who became an MP but I won't say much about him


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## i_hate_beckham (Nov 23, 2004)

pogofish said:
			
		

> OK, I hold my hands-up to the weed-smoking!
> 
> Little education by whose standards though, bits of paper?



Yes, sadly round here bits of paper are the be all and end all of education, resulting in most of my friends whose parents were skint hippys that sent them to the Steiner school for 'education' not being able to send somewhere they could use the life skills they gained. 

Even the colleges frowned on anyone went there, if they got good GCSE's as well. Sad but true.


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## pogofish (Nov 23, 2004)

Very surprising, quite a few of the students I work with today are from Steiner backgrounds & I can't say I've ever seen any discrimination towards them.  Mind you, Natural History is one of the subject areas that a Steiner education would be well-suited for & we have both a reasonably flexible admission policy & an above average number of mature students.

Another thing about the school.  Most of the kids there would not have fitted-in/thrived/coped well in a conventional state school & I'm quite glad that we had somewhere that valued individual learning & personal development to such a degree.  Also, from my POV, the state was wiped clean when I started there & none of the baggage that I'd collected at state school was carried over so I was given a chance to learn again. 

And yes, when I came to work with kids myself, in the state sector, I did my best to apply some of the basic principles that I learned there.  Not Steiner ideology per se but I did do my upmost to accord them the same respect & individual opportunity that I had been used to - According to my bosses, I was an outstanding success - with some of the most difficult & troubled kids you could possibly imagine


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## maya (Nov 23, 2004)

all the people i know who've attended Steiner schools are very smart,creative,well-adjusted people...
 ..the Steiner _philosophy_,(anthroposophy),on the other hand...seems very dubious. Apparently,Steiner had close connections to Madame Blavatsky and theosophy,all that occult shit... I've read writings where Steiner claimed he had the ability to see through walls and metals,and that he had had a "vision" where he saw "people in the purgatory zone,on the seven moons of saturn",and similar mumbo jumbo nonsense...
 I've heard a lot of stories from my steiner friends about how they were told quirky tales about little elves and nature-spirits who lives in the earth,etc....  (of course,most of the kids doesn't take all the new-age babble seriously,but imagine the potential for how fucked-up a kid can be if uncritically exposed to such wishwash from teachers...i was very imaginative and dreamy as a kid,god knows what'd happened to me if i'd heard such stories from adults without dementia...)
 
...I have to say that ignoring all the anthrosophy wishwash, i sympathise with the idea of emphasizing the arts and the creative aspects of learning...

 but there's some weird disturbing shit to be found in anthrosophy,if you actually read the texts...astral bodies,atlanticians,racism,lemurians...


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## Cloo (Nov 23, 2004)

As I mentioned on another thread recently, these sorts of schools seems to either be brilliant for people, or totally fuck them up, leaving them directionless and confused. I don't know anyone who's been to one, although I know one person i think would have done far better in such an educational system than he did in a standard school.

So they can be great, but I don't think I'd send any children of my own to one in case it disagreed with them.


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## J77 (Nov 23, 2004)

The only person I've met who went to a Steiner school was a social recluse.


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## maya (Nov 23, 2004)

(P.s.-on a worrying note, I've heard more than one account of eccentric Steiner schools teachers who bullied pupils who disagreed with them,left the kids really fucked up...  )
..i agree with Cloo,though.  some kids really benefit from such an untraditional education,others don't fit in there... seem to be either-or,really.


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## pogofish (Nov 23, 2004)

maya said:
			
		

> P.s.-on a worrying note, I've heard more than one account of eccentric Steiner schools teachers who bullied pupils who disagreed with them,left the kids really fucked up...



Compared to the bullying & abuse I went through in the state system, Steiner schools are nothing - the culture is not one where bullying can thrive so easily.  Maybe why it has come forward though, state schooling tends to supress the issue.


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## maya (Nov 23, 2004)

pogofish said:
			
		

> Compared to the bullying & abuse I went through in the state system, Steiner schools are nothing - the culture is not one where bullying can thrive so easily.  Maybe why it has come forward though, state schooling tends to supress the issue.


 i know, i was bullied/abused to bits/beaten up every day from age 6-16 in the state school system, to the point where i got suicidal/mental issues from the harassment...  
(all because of being a too "bright" and dreamy/artistic kid...would have fitted right into a steiner school,used to envy my mate who went there,she in her turn hated steiner school and would've fitted in with my bullying mates...  fate,innit...)
-i agree with you,i think the culture/system in the steiner schools probably tend to be one with closer connections between the teachers and the children,leaving less room for bullying etc...


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## ICB (Nov 23, 2004)

Background context: I went to a second rank public (private) school, my partner went to an average comp in an average town, both were very very different from Steiner schools.

Our eldest son was really unhappy in state school, streamed and assessed within two weeks, aged 4, he was made to feel stupid and lost all his confidence, he was bullied and the teachers totally failed to make any connection with him.  It was one of the most difficult and upsetting times in our lives and we decided we had to do something so we put him in the Steiner school.

Result 5 years on: he's happy, much more confident although still carries scars, but massively behind with his reading and he didn't get the extra help at the Steiner school we asked for because they didn't pick up on his dyslexia until too late (his dylexia tests show him as in the bottom 2% on some stuff but the top 10% on others so he's not a typical case).  His form teacher at Steiner was a judgemental and sour old cow as far as we and many other parents were concerned (surprisingly very conventional) but she loved him and they got on well.  One of the reasons she didn't get on with us was that our middle son didn't go to Steiner because he didn't like it and was perfectly happy at state school: ergo we weren't true believers.

Overall I think it was good news for our eldest, but definitely flawed and definitely not what would have been our first choice.  However, as of this year he is in an absolutely idyllic little village primary school and we are working with his teachers to get him a special needs statement so that he can get some one to one help with his reading.


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## pogofish (Nov 23, 2004)

maya said:
			
		

> would have fitted right into a steiner school,used to envy my mate who went there,she in her turn hated steiner school and would've fitted in with my bullying mates...  fate,innit...)



Yes, that seems to be inevitable with schools, especially if you don't get on there, *any* other school can seem so much better.  I'd been through several schools by the time I left & all of them had their faults to some degree.  Looking back with the benifit of time & a spell on the other side of the fence in education myself, the Steiner school is the one that IMO taught me the most that was relavent & useful for later life.


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## Cranapplecorpse (Nov 25, 2004)

My mother wanted to send me to a steiner school, but I learned to read when I was 3 or 4, and I thought they were going to take my books away.  I went to a Montessori school until I was 11, which kind of fucked me up for a while when I went to a very straight catholic girls school.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 25, 2004)

A friends daughter was removed from steiner school this year after being in pre school etc. She was almost 8 and yet couldnt read and wanted to read. Becuase of this empasis on not pushing them to read it mean she was being denied the ability to explore her world ( which they strongly advocate) becuase she couldnt read road signs etc.
She got so disruptive  at school they moved her and hey presto, one very happy child, charging ahead as fast as possible devouring books and catching up with the other kdis who have been reading for 3 years already.


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## teecee (Nov 25, 2004)

I have mixed feelings on this as my ex is about to complete her 2 yr course to become a Steiner teacher so I have been exposed various aspects of this "philisophy", and some aspects I really agree with but when she comes home spouting crap about angels and fairies - I tend to scoff . And it does make me wonder in this day and age that teachers are being taught to interact with the angels that are all around us  and then teach that to the kids - and not in some metaphorical way either but as fact  

But on the whole all (5 of them)of the people I know who went to Steiner schools are mature well adjusted people

[Edited to Add] ...

Oh  yes and I went to the end of year show . What a load of pure unadulterated new age hippy bollocks of the highest order

And this is coming from someone who normally tends to have a soft spot for those kind of things - well to a certain degree

But this made me feel uncomfortable in a cult type way


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## geminisnake (Nov 25, 2004)

reallyoldhippy said:
			
		

> I like the way they don't push kids to read/write (especially writing) til kids have lost their milk teeth (usually, but not always 7 years).




Just as well my son didn't go there then. He didn't lose all his milk teeth til he was 12/13.

Having said that his writing is not any better than a primary age child.


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## Dissident Junk (Nov 25, 2004)

I had a friend that went to Steiner primary school and, hummm, she never liked maths so she never did any. By the time she got to secondary school, she was so far behind, she had to have private lessons.


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## pogofish (Nov 25, 2004)

I found them extremely good with reading, certainly compared to the state schools I'd been to before, they ensured I was never without a new & more challenging book to read.   I was one of those who learned at a very early age & despite this, when the previous school was trying to confirm "my" Dyslexia, they refused to deal with this & tried very hard to convince my mother to get rid of all my books & deny me any reading material - "it will be better for him in the long-run if he is not exposed to do things he will never manage" was what the line they tried-on  .  To a point she went along with them & starved of reading, I took to nightime raids on the family bookcase & spent many a long night under the bedclothes with a torch & a book - cue some interesting reading that was way beyond my age (parents had a fine collection of banned books & my mother was even lifted by customs for importing them  ).  This ended when an uncle & cousin got to hear of it - their first action was to send me a big parcel of books each & on his next visit, the uncle got an independant psycologist involved, then a lawyer!

I should add that upon re-entering the state system, I was put through a series of reading & comprehension tests in order to "re-assess" my reading skills & despite getting near top-marks in all the excercises, the small-minded, ungenerous, cheapskate bastards managed to mark me right down to the second bottom stream because of my lack of form filling skills - doubt I'd ever filled in a form before.  Apparently, putting my details in the appropriate boxes on the test folder was wrong, I should have written them all on another bit of paper so that they could re-use the folder.  Ho-hum!


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## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 25, 2004)

Thats your school though eh pogo. I guess you have good and poor schools of every type. I also think there are children who will find steiner wonderful ( my Daughter whos dyslexic would probably love it!) and others who would think what on earth am I doing here? I hate it!
Its a very individual thing


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## pogofish (Nov 25, 2004)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Thats your school though eh pogo. I guess you have good and poor schools of every type. I also think there are children who will find steiner wonderful ( my Daughter whos dyslexic would probably love it!) and others who would think what on earth am I doing here? I hate it!
> Its a very individual thing




Quite possibly, but out of all the schools I attended & later worked in (must be well-over 20 all-in) I can only think of *one* whose ethos, professionalism & commitment to their kids came anywhere near that of the Stiener institutions I got to know.  The School & two of the communities were independant of each other BTW.

Certainly agree that different children suit different types of schooling & that a more individual system should be in place.


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## dhindes (Apr 20, 2005)

*The Truth about Rudolf Steiner*

Yes,  Rudolf Steiner was heavily into the occult and all that. Yet at the same time he was quite sensible about practical matters. The  Waldorf Schools are a testement to his practical insights into what helps children  thrive. As for separating fact from fiction amid all the allegations, I built a site that looks at a number of issues and misconceptions around  Rudolf Steiner's biography. Those interested can visit it at  www.defendingsteiner.com.


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## Ms Ordinary (Apr 20, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> A friends daughter was removed from steiner school this year after being in pre school etc. She was almost 8 and yet couldnt read and wanted to read. Becuase of this empasis on not pushing them to read it mean she was being denied the ability to explore her world ( which they strongly advocate) becuase she couldnt read road signs etc.
> She got so disruptive  at school they moved her and *hey presto, one very happy child, charging ahead as fast as possible devouring books and catching up with the other kids who have been reading for 3 years already*.



I suppose you could use that to show that the Steiner method working though?  In that she didn't suffer from not being made to learn when she was five.  Though obviously the fact that they wouldn't teach her when she _wanted_ to learn is something I wouldn't agree with.

I don't have any personal experience of Steiner, but quite a lot of it appeals to me.  Ultimately I don't think I could have gone through with it though (as a parent) because I feel incredibly ill-at-ease around a certain type of very brisk & confident middle class hippy - I know its a prejudice but I really can't help it - & I suspected (quite possibly wrongly) that there would have been plenty of those around.

Reading "The Wild" by Esther Freud was quite interesting as well - it doesn't make it out to be all bad by any means, but it does describe a child who isn't really happy in that situation.


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## Cloo (Apr 22, 2005)

I get the impression that they're OK for some people, fantastic for a few and for another few they completely fuck up their lives, leaving them with no direction or discipline and lacking skills they need to get by in life.

I think a child has to be unusually self-motivated to be able to get something out of such an environment.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Apr 22, 2005)

I think alot depends how how motivational the teachers are. Theres a misconception that all steiner schools allow kids to learn what they want and when they want to.
Theres a 'free' school somewhere in the eat of england which does just that and kids do what they want, when they want from a selection of lessons available. 
I was really suprised that most steiner schools  arent like that and do follow a curriculum its just differently focused from mainstream school


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## kyser_soze (Apr 22, 2005)

Hmmm reading this thread I am struck by the amazing conclusion that it's not method or how kids are taught, it's the teacher than teaches...and I see Mshissyfit has made that point.

As for the whole reading/writing thing, I'm extremely glad I learned to read using phonics before I went to infant school (which my Ma kept up during term time as well) so I don't buy the whole 'not teaching reading and writing before 7' business.


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## Looby (Apr 22, 2005)

I have read this thread with interest as my friend is sending her daughter to a Steiner School, mainly because the schools in our area are appalling especially the senior schools.

My concerns are that she will not get the knowledge/skills required to be able to go back into mainstream education if she wants/needs to, because whether we like it or not to do A-Levels, Uni etc she needs decent grades.

At the moment this school does not have the facilities to teach pupils beyond 14 so to do GCSE's she would have to transfer to a state school or be home educated.
I am terrified that if she had to enter one of the schools in our area at 14 after 10 years of fluffiness that she will get crucified.
Would they prepare students for this? (I know her parents can do this too.)


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## soluble duck (Apr 23, 2005)

I went to a Steiner school until Year 6, and my experiences were mixed too.

I think there isnt enough diversity of people there, most are new-age, middle-class hippy types. This lead, certainly at the school i went to, to the pupils feeling very different to normal state school pupils, and not really recognizing them in town etc. Also, the word i would describe 'Steiner-ites' (as i used to call us), is airy-fairy- so many of them dont seem to have a grip on the real world. Also, the fact that there is money involved means that there is corruption. This has certainly started to take place at the Steiner school i went to. 

Also, the money issue meant that myself and my brothers were forced to leave the School because, following my parents divorce, which was quite 'messy', we couldn't afford the £1000 a term fee. There is definately a community there, but it is easily swayed against you, as in my families case, you do not appear to be a 'good' Steiner follower. This was noticeable in my lessons where one teacher made comments about me 'not staying for that much longer'.

As far as education goes , I found it not to be very challenging, and there is definately too big an emphasis on creativity as some simply arent creative.

However, I would agree that at an early age, up until about 5, it is a nice environment to learn. 

Why hasnt anyonme mentioned Eurythmy by the way.... what a load of completely pointless pretentious crap.....and it resulted in the Eurythmics as well


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## soluble duck (Apr 23, 2005)

"I am terrified that if she had to enter one of the schools in our area at 14 after 10 years of fluffiness that she will get crucified.
Would they prepare students for this? (I know her parents can do this too"

well.... as long as she is exposed to life outside the Steiner community she will be fine. There appears a tendency for Steiner believers to look down on everything non-Steiner, which results in them becoming ever more detatched. 

when i moved into a state school i was not ready at all, although i was only 12. I found it hard to make friends, and of course Steiner pupils are a year behind in terms of teaching (i was in year 6 Steiner, and year 7 state) and i had no knowledge of science or maths.


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## Looby (Apr 23, 2005)

I'm sure she will have contact outside Steiner but her parents are moving to  be closer to the school so her mother probably won't know any other parents/kids other than from Steiner.

I really want to talk to my friend about this as I deeply care about her and her daughter, but don't want it to seem as if I am interfering or criticizing her choices as she really believes this is the best thing for her child.

Aaaaaaaaaaaah this is horrible


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## soluble duck (Apr 24, 2005)

for a lot of children it is the best thing, but it also depends alot on the school you go to, just like any state school.


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## Masseuse (Apr 24, 2005)

I know near to nothing about Steiner schools, but I am quite interested in why everyone seems to be scoffing at stories of elves and woodland folk and mystical beings.

What's so wishy washy about children engaging with stories of this ilk?  I read loads of them by Hans Christian Anderson and the Brothers Grimm - it's folklore using archetypal characters and stories.  So what?  Can't children read or be told utterly fantastical whimsical nutty stuff anymore?  Or is it straight onto the microsoft instruction manuals?


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## Masseuse (Apr 24, 2005)

If I have kids they are bloody well going to grow up believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden.

I'm going to plant little things there the fairies have left behind.  Like tiny hats and pixie dust.  And tiny tiny tiny little fairy letters.

I will tell them of the real world.  But I will recommend they never go there.


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## soluble duck (Apr 24, 2005)

Yeh it is nice for little children, but you do grow up. And the teacher's belief is somewhat disturbing.


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## Masseuse (Apr 24, 2005)

soluble duck said:
			
		

> Yeh it is nice for little children, but you do grow up. And the teacher's belief is somewhat disturbing.



Well of course you grow up - but a lot of these stories are symbolic and archetypal and can be engaged with at any age.  When you say "be;ief" do you mean she took the stories literally, or that you assumed she took them literally?

Any belief system pursued in an evangelical matter using guilt or the fear of being pushed out as motivation (as in "you're not a proper Steiner") is problematic of course.  But I find the wholesale acceptance of the ideology running through the State school system far more worrying than a few schools harping on about pixies.

I'm going to start the Massy School for Space Bunnies and tell stories about wee!


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## soluble duck (Apr 24, 2005)

Where can I sign up?

I agree with your points, what I really meant was the teacher's acceptance of talking about pixies etc as a form 'teaching' really just shows how out of touch they can be. My step mother is a Kindergarten teacher, so I see all that stuff frequently.

It is quite nice though


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## Rocket no.9 (Apr 25, 2005)

I voted scary.

Rudy on blonds:

"If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense ... Blond hair actually bestows intelligence."

These statements were made in the 1920s. In Germany. 

More of the above with added anti-semitism aplenty from here


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## LilMissHissyFit (Apr 25, 2005)

soluble duck said:
			
		

> I went to a Steiner school until Year 6, and my experiences were mixed too.
> 
> I think there isnt enough diversity of people there, most are new-age, middle-class hippy types. This lead, certainly at the school i went to, to the pupils feeling very different to normal state school pupils, and not really recognizing them in town etc. Also, the word i would describe 'Steiner-ites' (as i used to call us), is airy-fairy- so many of them dont seem to have a grip on the real world. Also, the fact that there is money involved means that there is corruption. This has certainly started to take place at the Steiner school i went to.
> 
> ...



Now these are the reasons we decided against steiner education eventually.
There was this whole 'believers' thing and I was decidedly worried about the eurythmy stuff.
I realised that no matter how good an environment it appeared she would probably never fit in becuase we dont believe the stuff that the school did and I wasnt prepared to pretend that I did believe it and wasnt happy to send her to a school where I couldnbt challenge the stuff that they did and ask them to justify its benefits. I was worried she would be made to feel different and subsequently fit nowhere
They didnt really want to answer the questions I had on steiner education nor sell themselves as other schools did. You either trusted them totally and immersed your kids in it and had faith in the school or you didnt and that was fine but your kids wouldnt be welcome.
Too much of an unknown for me to cope with Im afraid


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## Rocket no.9 (Apr 25, 2005)

_Not_ fluffy. _Not_ airy-fairy. Just nasty, sick racist shit in abundance...with Deutsche Volkishness, elves, Atlanteans and 'science of the spirit' popping up everywhere.

"The offspring of endogamy inherited with the related blood the old capacity for wisdom in the etheric body. But as blood became more and more mixed--as a result of increasing intermarriage among tribes--the possibility of handing down the ancient wisdom diminished; ..."
(Steiner, 1909, GSJ p. 226)

Or consider:

"The greatest part of the Atlantean population declined, and from a small portion are descended the so-called Aryans who comprise present-day civilized humanity. According to the nomenclature of the science of the spirit, the Lemurians, Atlanteans and Aryans are *root races* of mankind."
(Steiner, 1904, CM p. 48)

Just mad.


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## wake_up (Apr 25, 2005)

*i agree*

I too have known an ex-steiner pupil- though i didn't really know about the schools' 'teaching methods' at that time. I have vague recolections of being immpressed with what they told me about the learing being focused on each child's potential.

When I knew that person, some of their behavoir seemed a little eccentric and their attitudes towards other peolple (especially those involved in the sciences) was perplexingly naive and aloof. I did not think to much of this at the time and indeed only knew this person briefly.

However, Now I know more about the schools I can see EXACTLY where that person was comming from and,to be frank, it's not just new-age hippy wank...it's much more scary.

Having heard testimonies from others (including people on this site) I was struck by how often the same vocabulary was used to describe the steiner product ( and how accuratly they described the former pupil I knew). Granted, 'studious' and 'intelligent' croped up alot; but so too did 'stoner' 'blinkered view of life' 'superiority' 'aryan'.

I can of course only jugde by my experiences with an ex Waldorf student and by stuff that i've read (mostly on the net). But from what I can tell, Waldorf schools are an excelent idea if you want your kids to grow up to be arrogant, naive under educated cult victims with a startling lack of preparation for real life, and an inability to critisise their indoctrination (despite the scars being clear to everyone else).

I would like to know what others think. Thank you.


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## Rocket no.9 (Apr 25, 2005)

wake_up said:
			
		

> ...But from what I can tell, Waldorf schools are an excelent idea if you want your kids to grow up to be arrogant, naive under educated cult victims with a startling lack of preparation for real life, and an inability to critisise their indoctrination (despite the scars being clear to everyone else).



Hmmn,

Don't know if this applies to all of them, but to a significant minority for sure. Anyway, if they are the children of "a certain type of very brisk & confident middle class hippy" (    @ Ms Ordinary!) then they won't suffer too much in the bug, bad world...

Anyway, back to the slagging off. I challenge anyone to read the following with a straight face:

"[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way, that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use, because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)

"...People were frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
"But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp. 36-37)







Naaah, mate!!


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## soluble duck (Apr 25, 2005)

I think people claiming the Waldorf/Steiner schools are some sort of cult is pushing it a bit, but I would agree that it has the potential to do so.

Have there been any studies into the 'cult' nature of present day Steiner schools? There is a Steiner book on our shelf called 'The Occult and Science' but I am interested in modern day schools.

This interests me because the Steiner school seems to have many rituals, pagan in this country, such as Maypole dancing, and a few million others. Also, the race thing is also interesting as we learnt ALOT about myths, particularly Norse and Greek myths.

As regards to comments about indoctrination, I would not agree, as I spent my whole time at the Steiner school hating its philosophy, but then this may be due to my parents, who were not the most zealous Steiner fanatics- my dad a stoner and mother, more of a Steiney.


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## Dubversion (Apr 25, 2005)

so here's a thing:

if you knew someone who's heart was set on sending their kid to a Steiner school. indeed, was moving area, selling a house and everything, to do so, and you'd read the stuff on this thread, how would you tackle it?

the thing is, the person involved - you see, this isn't hypothetical - may think this is right up her street. but to go to her with reams of evidence about how fucking dodgy Steiner schools appear to be might be destructive of someone's relationship with them..


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## soluble duck (Apr 25, 2005)

hmmmm what a dilly of a pickle


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## Rocket no.9 (Apr 26, 2005)

................Gently steer their browser (if they use one) towards http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=2898&page=1&pp=20

It's a decent, but fluffy and bourgeois American site with a very good-mannered, detailed and thoughtful thread examining all the aspects of Waldorf-Steiner schools that make me want to vomit. It should at least give your friend reason to pause.

Failing that, give thej child some brown and black crayons to take to school and see what happens...


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## wake_up (Apr 26, 2005)

*Calling all ex-steiner pupils (and current one's too)*

Many of us in this forum who have little/no experience of Waldorf Schools are trying, I think with open minds, to understand the steiner phenomenon. Although I can only speak for myself, I am finding that alot of people are posting conflicting views withought enough backround knowledge. This, I feel, may be prejudinsing people's opinions one way or the other.

Therefore, I would be grateful to anyone reading this thread who is/has been to a steiner school (especialy in the uk) if they would tell us about their own views and experiences. 

I especially think it would be enlightening to know what you are/have been taught vis a vis anthroposphy and what your curriculum entails/entailed.
For example, I have heard of exsteiner's going on to careers in the arts, but what if a child wants to be a psysicist, chemist or lawer? Are these aspects of the system lacking?

Many Thanks.


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## pogofish (Apr 26, 2005)

wake_up said:
			
		

> I especially think it would be enlightening to know what you are/have been taught vis a vis anthroposphy and what your curriculum entails/entailed.
> 
> For example, I have heard of exsteiner's going on to careers in the arts, but what if a child wants to be a psysicist, chemist or lawer? Are these aspects of the system lacking?



Very little was taught to us on Anthroposphy.  Indeed, it was the most ideology-free school I've ever attended.  Will try to post more of what I can remember about the curriculum.  Although my school was not a Waldorf establishment, rather it followed Stiener principles using mainly Steiner trained teachers though.  Most of the staff at the three Steiner communities in this area sent their kids there, rather than to the local Waldorf school. 

I would agree that it was probably lacking for science, & technology - other than Natural History/Biology/Ecology based science, that was well suited & taught.  Pupils showing interest in subjects like chemistry & maths were encouraged but specialist teachers/tutors were brought-in.


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## wake_up (Apr 26, 2005)

*Steiner Schools and Society*

Sorry, forgot to add:

I would like to know what people think of steiner education in realtion to society as a whole. For example, what we think of it as a fee-paying instition? is the steiner  bastion of middleclass self interest ignoring those less fortunate? what lessons are there for the state sector? that kind of thing...


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## christonabike (Apr 26, 2005)

Do you have to pay for it?


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## wake_up (Apr 26, 2005)

christonabike said:
			
		

> Do you have to pay for it?



Of course. They are independent schools. Though i think they offer bursaries, esp to special needs pupils ( please correct me if any of this is wrong!)

As I have said before; I have only known one former steiner pupil, but seem to recollect them mentioning figures of around £4000 per annum for their London School.


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## christonabike (Apr 26, 2005)

I didn't know that

So, it's mainly for people with dosh to spare

I would have to agree with this:

"the steiner bastion of middleclass self interest ignoring those less fortunate"

selective editing

 


Cheers


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## wake_up (Apr 26, 2005)

"So, it's mainly for people with dosh to spare"


I should add that I recently read something about Steiner schools to get (more) state funding ( and hopefully therefore more ofsted regulation!)

think it's estelle morris' idea. Could be wrong though cos i think she's retiring from government to go back into academia. (I should read the papers more often!)


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## pogofish (Apr 26, 2005)

christonabike said:
			
		

> Do you have to pay for it?



Yes, although I was on a 95% bursary from the local education department becaused of my supposed "problems"

Various others were from ordinary backgrounds on the same sort of funding.  Many with some form of "special needs" the kids of the Steiner residental staff were paid by their organisation & there were a few others whose folks paid full-price.

The profile of the average family was indeed middle-class hippy/progressive, as were many of the teachers but all-in, it was the most inclusive & multicultural school I attended & certainly the only place that was not vilely racist/religiously intolerant or driven by its own divisive ethos, culture & internal barriers/pecking-orders.


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## christonabike (Apr 26, 2005)

So if you want this:

"it was the most inclusive & multicultural school"

you have to pay?

Doesn't sound very inclusive to me - sounds like public school like Eton or such like


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## pogofish (Apr 26, 2005)

christonabike said:
			
		

> Doesn't sound very inclusive to me - sounds like public school like Eton or such like



Err, fuck no!


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## christonabike (Apr 26, 2005)

OK, I don't know about this school


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## pogofish (Apr 26, 2005)

Perhaps reading the thread might help?   

Plenty of pros & cons put over so far.


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## christonabike (Apr 26, 2005)

I have been doing - I realise how methods there are different

I can't get over the £4000 per annum fee


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## ebird (Apr 26, 2005)

pogofish said:
			
		

> Yes, although I was on a 95% bursary from the local education department becaused of my supposed "problems"



An' me! Apparently it's a different kind of "special" that teachers use, compared to the "special" that your mam and dad think you are.

I went to a RS School in Gloucestershire, but only for about a term and a half before my parents moved away from the area.  I was too young to form a "proper" understanding of the place, but l thought it was the most un-school like school I ever went to, free of all the nasty-ness that pogofish mentions.

There certainly were lots of kids who were ded posh, with slightly hippy like parents, but I say it was a million miles from your average public school experience.


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## christonabike (Apr 26, 2005)

So, if you ain't got the dosh, what are the criteria for getting in?


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## wake_up (Apr 26, 2005)

*This might be worth mentioning...*

An exchange that occured between myself and an ex steiner student:

Me
"So you don't think it's harder for, say, a poor black girl from tower hamlets to succed in Britain today than a white, middle-class man?"

Former Pupil:
'' No. It's a matter of attitude''.

Me
''S you don't think anything needs to change in British society today? You think we've pretty much achieved equality?''

Former pupil:
"I think it's pretty much equal. Everyone has a fair chance''

Ok, so that conversation may not be word for word accurate. But you get the piont right? The view is: ''We are all bourgois hippy's now...except for those who are not (silly road sweepers!). Ho Hum, well I guess there's no helping some people. Not eveyone can be as enlightened as us.''

That's a pretty untidy charicature there. Possibly a tad OTT. But having read testimonies of others that have known former waldorf pupils, I don't think it's  a million miles off a general outlook on life that these students go out into the world with.

Oh dear, I can see I'm going to get some angry replies to this!
Just so you all know, I don't mean to offend anyone with what I have said.
My comments are born out of genuine concern, and I accept all critisicms with open arms!


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## pogofish (Apr 26, 2005)

christonabike said:
			
		

> So, if you ain't got the dosh, what are the criteria for getting in?



For state support, their ability with a range of special needs would be one major criteria.  In my day, state provision was next to non-existant & although state provision is now much better, it still fails many.  Steiner schools still help to fill the gap.


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## pogofish (Apr 26, 2005)

wake_up said:
			
		

> That's a pretty untidy charicature there. Possibly a tad OTT. But having read testimonies of others that have known former waldorf pupils, I don't think it's  a million miles off a general outlook on life that these students go out into the world with.



Pretty accurate for quite a number of them, but by no means all.  More so for the kids who came-in from other Steiner institutions/Waldorf schools or the realms of hippydom. There was more than an air of "We are the special people" about them.  Most though did live a lifestyle that was a bit detached from the real world.  Not that this was a bad thing in itself & the communities they came from were a model of sustainable living that were years ahead of their time.  North Scotland then was a tad insular harsh in its outlook & an insight into other ways of living was of some value.

For the rest of us who had to bus it back to grim reality every night these ideals were nice but a bit abstract!


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## pogofish (Apr 26, 2005)

ebird said:
			
		

> I ever went to, free of all the nasty-ness that pogofish mentions..



Sorry, most of the nastiness described the state schools.


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## wake_up (Apr 26, 2005)

*calling all waldorf/steiner pupils*

Just a reminder that I'd still be very interested at what people who are/ have been at these schools have got to say on the matter of Waldorf/Steiner education, as I and others on this thread still have very little idea of what the curricullum was like etc.

Also, this is turning into a one man rant on my part! I'm hoging all the discusion!


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## soluble duck (Apr 27, 2005)

As I mentioned earlier, I went to a Steiner school for quite a few years, and as far as the curriculum went..... well

In the Lower school, you had Main Lesson- this comprised of a topic which would be learnt over a couple of moths or so, ie Norse Myths, Egyptians, Greeks, Geometry

With this we learnt French and German, RE, Eurythmy, Music, and for a couple of years even Country Dancing (no idea why).


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## wake_up (Apr 28, 2005)

*anthroposophy*

Just found this site:

www.anthroposophy.net

Can't work out if this this site uk or usa based?

I'm pretty computer illiterate, so if the answer's probably in the address, please forgive me.

(oh, and I should probably beg forgiveness for illteracy in more general terms!
Jesus, my spelling sucks!)


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## wake_up (Apr 28, 2005)

*i am a silly billy*

Sorry, the site is CLEARLY from the US!

I will endevour to actually employ my brain, afore me next post.


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## soluble duck (Apr 28, 2005)

you should go to a steiner school


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## wake_up (Apr 28, 2005)

*hehe*

must..(grunt).resist urge..(gasp).to post...sarcastic...repley...(grunt)

must...be...strong


oo! by the way, how come everyone else has got that cool eye rolling icon?
Where are you, oh great expressive one? 
Damn, I hate computers!

I'll never be able to find...oh! Here it is


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## mazzamom (Jun 20, 2005)

I'm interested in sending my daughters to a Steiner Waldorf school. I'm finding it difficult to find resources from former pupils who went right through the system, although i've found a few from pupils who attended for a few yrs.


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## Elephants Geral (Aug 3, 2005)

I'm not condoning Steiners racist views and weird ideas, but lets not judge the attitudes of the past by the values of today. In the early 20th century racist attitudes were very much the norm.

Sir Isaac Newton, the father of modern science, was an alchemist who had some very funny ideas by todays standards, but he had some pretty good ones too.

Rudolf Steiner is long dead, but Steiner education is very much alive and relevant in todays society. Just as Newtons good ideas have been accepted and his crazy ones ignored, so "What Steiner Said" is not the be all and end all of modern Waldorf education. Here's an article about the results of a government funded study into Steiner Education in the UK -  Steiner schools 'could help all'

There is no doubt that Steiner education has spiritual aspects. Does this mean that Christian, Catholic, Jesuit and Muslim school are also 'crazy', 'weird', 'cults', 'to be avoided'? To some people it probably does.

If you really want out find out what Steiner schools are like then why not stop talking about it and actually go and visit one. The Steiner school in Hereford has regular open days where childrens work is on display, and both parents, pupils and teachers are available to talk about the education and their experiences of it. As regards payment, this school is funded on a contribution based system where you pay according to your ability to pay. This may well change as the school is currently undergoing a feasibility study with a view to creating a government funded Steiner academy (The Independant - Schools Get Backing To Run Academy ).

Here's the OFSTED report on the Hereford Nursery & Kindergarten.

My experience of the puils emerging from the Hereford School at 16 is that, for the most part, they are happy, creative, and extremely confident individuals.

Here's what the Hereford Sixth College has to say:
_"The college welcomes pupils from the local Steiner School. They are excellent students," said Dr Jonathan Godfrey, the Sixth Form College principal.​_The bottom line is that you have a choice about education. Take a good hard look at a real Steiner school. Take a good hard look at real state school. Take good hard look at some other schools with other ideas. Ask the questions you want to have answered and make up your own mind.

Here are some links that may help:
The Independent - Steiner schools: Learning from experience
The Guardian - State schools 'could learn from Steiner principles' 
The Guardian - Explainer: Steiner schools 
DfES - Steiner Schools in England
European Council for Steiner Waldorf Education
Steiner Waldorf Fellowship
Waldorf Answers
Waldorf World
Hereford Waldorf School


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