# Brixton violence and looting (7th Aug 2011)



## dozi (Aug 7, 2011)

Just picked my son up after the Morrissy gig, and there's naughty boys kicking orf on Railton Road, lots of old bill there, good luck Brixtonians.


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## toblerone3 (Aug 7, 2011)

Ikcick off.


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## Belushi (Aug 8, 2011)

They're probably angered by Morrisey's statement re the Norwegian massacre.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Really? I'm a stone's throw from there, and it's dead quiet. Sure you didn't mistake a group of noisy teenagers for a rampaging horde? There are a lot of police around clearing the massive crowds after Brixton Splash. Doesn't mean something's kicking off.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 8, 2011)

@andrew_hough

At least 200 youths pelting stones + bottles @ police. Businesses told to shut up shop. 2 different cordons #Brixton #riots #London


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Got my window wide open, silence. When you say Railton Road do you mean the Herne Hill end as opposed to Brixton?


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## malice (Aug 8, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> @andrew_hough
> 
> At least 200 youths pelting stones + bottles @ police. Businesses told to shut up shop. 2 different cordons #Brixton #riots #London


The only source seems to be this guy - and his photos are of police, and that's it - at the moment it seems like his over reaction.


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## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Coldharbour Lane has been sealed off by cops by the Atlantic Road...


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Yep. Posted link to him earlier but he might be over excited.  Think he's saying now that just skirmishes.

Hopefully too late to get the momentum needed for a riot here.


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## dozi (Aug 8, 2011)

Right by the weatherman shop, lots of herberts incognito coming up from the high street, there has been reports of planned looting to take place, but who knows, apparently Walthamstow is getting a kicking at the moment. Certainly looked a bit scary in Brixton, but hopefully the rumours will come to nothing.


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## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Photo from our very own hendo


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## dozi (Aug 8, 2011)

Oh god I hate f*ckin Morrisey.


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## qosno1 (Aug 8, 2011)

The only source seems to be a Telegraph journalist who wants to write a report to sound like he was in a warzone. Couple of pics on twitter of william hills and kfc windows broke but not much more than you'd expect on a busy weekend night. It seems like people on twitter are desperate for something to bee happening here despite all the reports from people living here saying there is nothing going on.

That's not to say there isn't something going on, in fact i can here the helicopter now, but nobody seems to know anything and i wouldn't trust a telegraph journalist as far as i could throw him.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Just spoken on phone to someone in the Albert who have been told to stay in the pub (Police sanctioned lock-in?). Helicopter overhead, but otherwise can hear not a squeak.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> Photo from our very own hendo


oh dear

there's a bunch of outside agitators there


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## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Apparently H&M has been looted (source: hendo Twitter feed)


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

helicopter seems to have disappeared


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Video of looting by the the Tube. http://twitvid.com/GGNHC


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## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> helicopter seems to have disappeared


brixton taliban


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> Apparently H&M has been looted (source: hendo Twitter feed)



Now is that the Brixton one or the Enfield one that's been mistaken for the Brixton one all night?


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Could this kick off properly?


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Now is that the Brixton one or the Enfield one that's been mistaken for the Brixton one all night?



Deffo Brixton


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## qosno1 (Aug 8, 2011)

The H&M thing is a hoax. The photo doing the rounds is from north london this morning.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Video of looting by the the Tube. http://twitvid.com/GGNHC


seems more popular than his 'watching interracial cartoon sex' video


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Deffo Brixton


 
ok, so the Enfield and Brixton ones have been done.  William Hill in Coldharbour Lane's had its windows smashed as well according to a pic by one of those journalists


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Helicopter gone. Two people have just walked by talking quietly. It's so quiet I could hear their conversation (food related) According to the guy I spoke to in the Albert the police say it's on one edge of the Estate I live on  It's so quiet you could hear a pin drop.


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> seems more popular than his 'watching interracial cartoon sex' video



 Escaped me.


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## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Video of looting by the the Tube. http://twitvid.com/GGNHC



They should loot them selves a new mobile!


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## qosno1 (Aug 8, 2011)

yeah looks like i was wrong. twitter says foot locker is on fire http://twitpic.com/62o4e2


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Helicopter gone. Two people have just walked by talking quietly. It's so quiet I could hear their conversation (food related) According to the guy I spoke to in the Albert the police say it's on one edge of the Estate I live on  It's so quiet you could hear a pin drop.



Quiet before the storm or after? Hoping for the latter.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Helicopter gone. Two people have just walked by talking quietly. It's so quiet I could hear their conversation (*food related*) According to the guy I spoke to in the Albert the police say it's on one edge of the Estate I live on  It's so quiet you could hear a pin drop.



Cupcakes?


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## dozi (Aug 8, 2011)

Son's friend phoned parents to say all was well and they were back here to be told, oh yes they have started looting in Croydon now.......


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## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Morleys has had one/some windows smashed...


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> Morleys has had one/some windows smashed...



As have McD's.


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## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

dozi said:


> Son's friend phoned parents to say all was well and they were back here to be told, oh yes they have started looting in Croydon now.......



really, or is this a rumour like it was last night?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Still as quiet as quiet can be. Heard lone distant siren. That's it. I actually went out of my house and walked towards Barrier Block. I heard a baby crying though an open window and nothing else. I have actually been in Brixton for three decades so I do know what a riot sounds (and smells) like. No rioting as far as I can tell.


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## agricola (Aug 8, 2011)

the guardians live feed is claiming that footlocker is on fire, looting all over the place as well?




> 12.13am:





> Looting is going on in Brixton, unhindered by the police, according to the Guardian's Matt Taylor.
> At the scene, he witnessed a couple of hundred people taking goods out of Footlocker, which has now been set on fire. Some let on bicycles while others passed it to friends in waiting cars.
> A police helicopter is circling overhead while police on the ground have congregated on side street close to the looking but have not yet intervened.


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

agricola said:


> really, or is this a rumour like it was last night?



The twitterati insist it is quiet, for now.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

i like that bit about cops congregating close to the looking!


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Footlocker Brixton?


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> The twitterati insist it is quiet, for now.



some do, some report looting. All tweeting simultaneously.


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Who's this Andrew Hough who's all the time BREAKING on Twatter?


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Footlocker Brixton?



Yes.


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Who's this Andrew Hough who's all the time BREAKING on Twatter?



He's telegraph, apparently. And matthew taylor is guardian apparently.


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## qosno1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Andrew Hough is a Telegraph Journalist, @paraicobrien is there for the bbc,@mrmatthewtaylor for the guardian


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

WTF?!  Someone saying on Twitter they've just heard a bus has driven into Footlocker?

Was the bus driver after some trainers?


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Seems like they hit Vodafone too.


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## spanglechick (Aug 8, 2011)

www.twitter.com/hendopolis is  reporting what he can see and photos, videos etc.

worth a look.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Right, so a bit of opportunist thieving then? Not a riot.


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

H&M video.

http://yfrog.com/7hev6z


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## northsouthfood (Aug 8, 2011)

There was a big flurry of ambulances about ten minutes ago on Brixton Road going into central Brixton. But apart from that siren fest, it sounds quieter than a normal Sunday night in Brixton. Don't know whether that's good or bad...


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Not a riot near as i can tell


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> www.twitter.com/hendopolis



I'm following him too.


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

> Apple Store has been looted, Police are looking for an iWitness



Lots of comedians on Twitter atm.


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## spanglechick (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Oh, just spotted this. Was about to post more of his stuff and wondering whether to out him!


ooh... maybe that was an 'outing'.


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> ooh... maybe that was an 'outing'.



  you outed him!


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

I know, I know, I shouldn't laugh



> Oh no, this isn't just any riot it's now an M&S riot...


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## spanglechick (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> you outed him!


No - that's what i was saying. I hadn't realised, but maybe I did. Anyway i've edited it now... would you mind following suit?


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## qosno1 (Aug 8, 2011)

http://www.twitvid.com/CLJ1W It sounds like there just aren't enough police to do much except watch.


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## dozi (Aug 8, 2011)

Spot on Mrs M. Let's hope it gets stopped quickly.


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Is it raining? That should help. Nothing like rain to douse riots as well as flames.


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## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

@paraicobrien has posted some vids of Brixton too


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> www.twitter.com/hendopolis is reporting what he can see and photos, videos etc.
> 
> worth a look.



Excellent, Urban's man on the ground

Some reliable news on Twitter at last


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

cybertect said:


> @paraicobrien has posted some vids of Brixton too



Been watching him for a couple of hours

Says Currys has been hit and some moving up the Hill


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Curry's is next according to Mr. O'Brien.


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

http://yfrog.com/h2ru5ouj


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Seems like they hit Vodafone too.



The bus driver was after new trainers and a new mobile?

Where are people getting these stories?!


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## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 8, 2011)

Please Mob, not the coffee shops!


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> The bus driver was after new trainers and a new mobile?
> 
> Where are people getting these stories?!



 I wasn't on about any bus drivers! Just that the Vodafone shop got mugged/looted as well.


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## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

From @DubbDeuces


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

I can see something on fire by the town hall or is it smoke drifting?


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## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

Has the cupcake shop been looted yet then? If not maybe I'll head down there now.


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Rain!


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Has the cupcake shop been looted yet then? If not maybe I'll head down there now.



The ideological power of stale cupcakes cannot be underestimated.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I can see something on fire by the town hall or is it smoke drifting?


maybe it is the town hall


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## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 8, 2011)

some journo on five live says 150 people on streets in brixton, halfords getting looted for 20 mins at least, vodaphone similarly looted for >20 mins, he's surprised by their low level presence. also keen to stress that some white dreddy bloke getting nicked by cops and not just young black men doing this.


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Has the cupcake shop been looted yet then? If not maybe I'll head down there now.



Have you tried them yet then?  I haven't.


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## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I can see something on fire by the town hall or is it smoke drifting?



Does it have drops of water coming out of the bottom of it?


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## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Have you tried them yet then? I haven't.



No. There is a certain price point below which I would, though.


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> some journo on five live says 150 people on streets in brixton, halfords getting looted for 20 mins at least, vodaphone similarly looted for >20 mins, he's surprised by their low level presence. also keen to stress that some white dreddy bloke getting nicked by cops and not just young black men doing this.


Has anyone seen Editor?


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## tufty79 (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Have you tried them yet then? I haven't.


they're bloody lovely, if a little rich. i can manage about a quarter of one at a time.
if they were free, however...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I wasn't on about any bus drivers! Just that the Vodafone shop got mugged/looted as well.



I know.  I was joking about the bus driver!  But someone seriously said that a bus had driven into Footlocker


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## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Has the cupcake shop been looted yet then? If not maybe I'll head down there now.


 Could you pop into Currys for me on the way?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Has anyone seen Editor?



Off taking photos?


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Off taking photos?


Being arrested.

see the post I quoted.


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## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Perhaps he's hoping to get interviewed as a 'community leader' or summat.

Speaking of which, that's what I'd like from Currys, a new camera...


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## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Being arrested.
> 
> see the post I quoted.



Lol, surely PT is taking he piss? Paulie?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

editor's not in Brixton at the moment. He is doubtless taking photos wherever he is because he does a lot of that.


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Any credence to these rumours that this was planned by some local gangs?


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## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Could you pop into Currys for me on the way?



Nah, everything in Currys is overpriced.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> maybe it is the town hall



MacShiteys maybe!

Can see The Shard again so maybe it was only little


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> editor's not in Brixton at the moment. He is doubtless taking photos wherever he is because he does a lot of that.



I might report it on Twitter anyway.


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## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Nah, everything in Currys is overpriced.



But...but it's five finger discount day!


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## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

qosno1 said:


> http://www.twitvid.com/CLJ1W It sounds like there just aren't enough police to do much except watch.



It's good that journalists know how to spell and punctuate, isn't it.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Brixton just got a 10 second mention on Sky News re:  Foot Locker


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## northsouthfood (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> No. There is a certain price point below which I would, though.



I had one when it was free. It was still too expensive at that price. I wouldn't loot them if they were the last food on earth myself...


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## Glennard (Aug 8, 2011)

Heard what sounded like 2 small explosions nr Railton Rd - but looked out the window ansd saw 2 young drunks staggering down the road - so think they may have just been kicking something or something.

Rain raining down really quite hard now.


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Looks like the rains did for it. Serious looting, but obv it will be reported as "rioting" tomorrow.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Any credence to these rumours that this was planned by some local gangs?


If there are groups of youth moving around they'll probably be with people from their endz but that doesn't mean they're roaming around in gangs if you see what I mean. It's lashing it down now. Water is pouring out of my gutter. Good.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Hello Glennard and welcome


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## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> It's good that journalists know how to spell and punctuate, isn't it.


Lot of new members eh?? (the last ? is for you)


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> If there are groups of youth moving around they'll probably be with people from their endz but that doesn't mean they're roaming around in gangs if you see what I mean. It's lashing it down now. Water is pouring out of my gutter. Good.



I like rain, except when it flattens my plants, and it's good for dampening the enthusiasm of unruly youths


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> If there are groups of youth moving around they'll probably be with people from their endz but that doesn't mean they're roaming around in gangs if you see what I mean. It's lashing it down now. Water is pouring out of my gutter. Good.



Sure, I was taking a cue from some of these rumours on Twatter. I wouldn't put it past some particularly enterprising group of young lads to organise their participation in such events more than just "let's loot!" IYSWIM.


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## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

endz


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## boohoo (Aug 8, 2011)

fairly quiet here though we have been watching the fire in the distance. Cops have blocked off roads and not letting anyone near Brixton ( from Brixton Village End)

Rain keep coming!!!


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Some woman saying riots near southwyck house as she was going home just now.  Shame Ed isn't around.


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> endz



What was that?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

The situation in my house is serious. I've run out of fags.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> What was that?


Sorry typo, ends


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> The situation in my house is serious. I've run out of fags.



I hear quimmy is good for fag runs.


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Sorry typo, ends



Doh.


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Someone is claiming M&S in flames! Cunts! They've gone too far now.  I'm off to hunt the little shits down.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Some woman saying riots near southwyck house as she was going home just now. Shame Ed isn't around.


I'm right by there. I really don't think there's a riot less than 200 yards from me and I've not noticed.


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I'm right by there. I really don't think there's a riot less than 200 yards from me and I've not noticed.



I suspect she wasn't alive for proper riots.


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## Rushy (Aug 8, 2011)

Bloody noisy at Currys.


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Quiet riots, that's what we need.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> The situation in my house is serious. I've run out of fags.





TruXta said:


> I hear quimmy is good for fag runs.



This is very true.  I'd send Quimmy out


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Someone is claiming M&S in flames! Cunts! I'm off to hunt the little shits down.



WHAT?!!


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## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Someone is claiming M&S in flames! Cunts! I'm off to hunt the little shits down.



'Not just a riot....'

/gets coat


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## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

@LondonFire [official London Fire Brigate] tweet 23 minutes ago




			
				LFB said:
			
		

> Six fire engines are at a fire in Brixton Road at the moment


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

As long as Lidl is safe...


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> WHAT?!!



I know!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Pairic O'Brien says it's calming down where he is.  Not sure where he is though.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Pairic O'Brien says it's calming down where he is. Not sure where he is though.


probably watching interracial cartoon sex


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Pairic O'Brien says it's calming down where he is. Not sure where he is though.



High street I think.


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## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

Can someone set fire to the Santander branch pls? Or just cause at least £150's worth of damage.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> I know!



Little feckers.  Can someone send Hendo down there to grab 'em by the scruffs of their necks and lead them home


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## drpepperrrr (Aug 8, 2011)




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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!






Actually that might just be outside.   Everyone pray the firefighters have their priorities right and put this out quicksharp.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i didn't think you'd have something in common with margaret thatcher - you live and learn.


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## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

Top photo- police cordon off central Brixton. Coldharbour lane
Middle photo- smoke from Footlocker. looking down Atlantic road
Bottom photo- JAH police van. Funny


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Someone says Currys is on fire and have posted a picture but it just looks like street lamps to me


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

So well away from Currys then? @Gramsci.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> So well away from Currys then?



No, you can see it's Currys but it's hard to say if it's fire.  The "light" looks more like lights than flames


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## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> No, you can see it's Currys but it's hard to say if it's fire. The "light" looks more like lights than flames



That was for Gramsci but you got in the way.


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## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

So, did the stuff that people were laughing at in the first bit of the thread for not happening - the very idea! -  happen or not?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Well, the cat's just come in the back door soaked to the skin, dragging a wheelie bin full of electrical gear but he doesn't smell of smoke.


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## Rushy (Aug 8, 2011)

Effra Road war zone. Police being bombarded with missiles and reversing back to Brixton. Flames in road.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Little fecker didn't think to get me any fags though  He can whistle if he wants catnip :mad;


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## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

Some pics on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sfingleton/6019626725/in/photostream

Doesn't look good for Footlocker


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> So, did the stuff that people were laughing at in the first bit of the thread for not happening - the very idea! - happen or not?



What do you mean - was it a riot?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> That was for Gramsci but you got in the way.



I apologise


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, the cat's just come in the back door soaked to the skin, dragging a wheelie bin full of electrical gear but he doesn't smell of smoke.


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## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> What do you mean - was it a riot?


I mean what i said. Who said it was a riot?


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I mean what i said. Who said it was a riot?



I didn't get what you said. What "stuff" where people "laughing at"?


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## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I didn't get what you said. What "stuff" where people "laughing at"?



You answer me first. Who said it was a riot? Or at least tell me why you asked me that stupid fucking question. Then relate that to this thread.


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## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Isn't it a bit late to be rioting now?


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## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You answer me first. Who said it was a riot?



Some fuckwits on Twitter. That's not why I replied to your post - the "was it a riot" was in response to your "stuff" and "idea" vagueries.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Isn't it a bit late to be rioting now?


you're quite right. everyone should have gone out rioting last night and we'd all have free shopping. people who have to work in the morning unlikely to nip out for a bit of last minute rioting at this time on a monday morning.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Some fuckwits on Twitter. That's not why I replied to your post - the "was it a riot" was in response to your "stuff" and "idea" vagueries.


 You asked me a daft question because of something on twitter? Not what i asked? Or just some vague bollocks?

I didn't mention a riot, why ask me if i thought one had happened.

The first page of posts suggests that no one else did either. Have you learnt nothing yet?


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

I dunno what you're playing at butchers. What was the stuff that people were laughing at, this idea you mentioned? Would it be too much to ask for something a bit more specific than "stuff" and "idea"?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you're quite right. everyone should have gone out rioting last night and we'd all have free shopping. people who have to work in the morning unlikely to nip out for a bit of last minute rioting at this time on a monday morning.



Indeed. Ain't they got homes to go to?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> So well away from Currys then? @Gramsci.



Unfortunately. Didnt get a chance to do any shopping.Been ill today. Managed to sleep through Brixton Splash.  I fancied a nice new laptop and a widescreen TV.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I dunno what you're playing at butchers. What was the stuff that people were laughing at, this idea you mentioned? Would it be too much to ask for something a bit more specific than "stuff" and "idea"?


Why did you reply? Did you get caught out? No worries. You can't be everywhere all the time.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Unfortunately. Didnt get a chance to do any shopping.Been ill today. Managed to sleep through Brixton Splash. I fancied a nice new laptop and a widescreen TV.



I meant the police were!  Hope you feel better.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

I've seriously got no idea what you're talking about Butchers. Which seems fitting since I replied because I didn't get what you were referring to in the first place. Again, what stuff and ideas were laughed at?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I've seriously got no idea what you're talking about Butchers. Which seems fitting since I replied because I didn't get what you were referring to in the first place. Again, what stuff and ideas were laughed at?


Why did you ask me if i thought there had been a riot? You must have had some pretty strong interpretative structure to ask me that question in reply to the post on this board that nothing could happen unless they saw it. Or, at the very least me arguing that there had been a riot, Or, at the pathetic last, someone on the thread arguing that there had been.

And you ain't got the last two.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

You misunderstand. I didn't ask you if you thought there had been a riot. I asked you if the "idea" and "stuff" that people had "laughed at" was that there was a riot going on. Capiche?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Butchers, are you the outside agitator who's gone to Brixton next for a bit of argy bargy?


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Fucking choppers right overhead!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2011)

Butchers - in our endz, agitating our youths


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Is that a very strange sounding helicopter or something else?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Normal sounding helicopter.


----------



## hassan (Aug 8, 2011)

I hear a helicopter in stockwell


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> You misunderstand. I didn't ask you if you thought there had been a riot. I asked you if the "idea" and "stuff" that people had "laughed at" was that there was a riot going on. Capiche?


No you did not. That only makes sense if i'm arguing that it was a riot against people who were arguing that it wasn't. I didn't mention a fucking riot. Why ask me

I mentioned that the _it can't happen because i can't see it_ types have just been burnt out. What else can't they see?


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Is that a very strange sounding helicopter or something else?



It's a doodlebug! When you stop hearing it it's heading right for you!


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> I meant the police were! Hope you feel better.



Oh i see what u mean. It looked to us from our roof that the police were pushing the rioters out of central Brixton. They as my photos show put up lines of coppers to stop people and traffic entering the cleared area.

I could see that there was people running up and down the High street. So it looks to me that the police were containing central Brixton and not the high street or Currys.

Maybe they did not have enough police. At one point I saw the cops start to put on there riot gear and then rush off in the vans. I guess the rioters were moving around a lot and the police were sure not where they would be next. A lot of cops were just standing there guarding the streets they had cleared. So could not move elsewhere. This would gradually tie up a lot of there manpower. A problem when policing a fast moving group of people.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I've seriously got no idea what you're talking about Butchers. Which seems fitting since I replied because I didn't get what you were referring to in the first place. Again, what stuff and ideas were laughed at?


He wants people to have scoffed at the idea that any serious unrest was happening/going to happen in Brixton, followed by serious unrest happening in Brixton, so that he can scoff at those people for having scoffed. The opaque manner in which he does this is to add extra scoffiness. Or, he might be drunk. Or, possibly both of those things. HTH


----------



## Effrasurfer (Aug 8, 2011)

Kids running down Crownstone Road carrying flatscreens.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

I think you might be onto something teuchter.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> He wants people to have scoffed at the idea that any serious unrest was happening/going to happen in Brixton, followed by serious unrest happening in Brixton, so that he can scoff at those people for having scoffed. The opaque manner in which he does this is to add extra scoffiness. Or, he might be drunk. Or, possibly both of those things. HTH


It's called laughter.

edit: note the trap door - 'going'  - run run you might escape!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

People fighting over stolen goods at Curry's apparently


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

loads of people were desperate to say it was kicking off in brixton. Loads of people were swift to say it wasn't and what rot the idea was. Now it has a little bit and might a bit more.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Belushi said:


> It's a doodlebug! When you stop hearing it it's heading right for you!



*ducks*

Not circling now, just hovering over Brixton. Hard to see which way it's facing though


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> loads of people were desperate to say it was kicking off in brixton. Loads of people were swift to say it wasn't and what rot the idea was. Now it has a little bit and might a bit more.



Where these loads of people in here, on this thread?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Circling now with spotlight on


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Where these loads of people in here, on this thread?


 
no, largely on the tottneham riot thread.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> no, largely on the tottneham riot thread.



Right, cheers, haven't followed that at all really.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you're quite right. everyone should have gone out rioting last night and we'd all have free shopping. people who have to work in the morning unlikely to nip out for a bit of last minute rioting at this time on a monday morning.



I agree.

The bloody helicopter is keeping me awake now as well and Ive got to get up tomorrow morning.

I mean its not exactly full on riot out there now.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I agree.
> 
> The bloody helicopter is keeping me awake now as well and Ive got to get up tomorrow morning.
> 
> I mean its not exactly full on riot out there now.



Uh-oh, you mentioned the r-word!


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

Oh sorry I forgot Butchers turned up on Brixton board tonight.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

Are riots are a deviation from the Struggle of the Working Class to overthrow Capitalism? Discuss


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

Just seen a load of teenagers and young men carrying flatscreens down Barnwell Road towards Railton Road. They're heading under the bridge on Mayall Road toward Somerleyton Road. I can see a a police helicopter over central Brixton. Roll on the gentrification of Brixton. It can't happen soon enough.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I agree.
> 
> The bloody helicopter is keeping me awake now as well and Ive got to get up tomorrow morning.
> 
> I mean its not exactly full on riot out there now.



Same as.  I'd be happy if it just stayed in one place so it's a constant drone but the bastard keeps moving.

Twitter reports saying people trying to break into The Academy.  Morrissey fans hoping he's not left the building?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> Just seen a load of teenagers and young men carrying flatscreens down Barnwell Road towards Railton Road. They're heading under the bridge on Mayall Road toward Somerleyton Road. I can see a a police helicopter over central Brixton. *Roll on the gentrification of Brixton. It can't happen soon enough.*




Are you joking?  *
*


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> I can see a a police helicopter over central Brixton. Roll on the gentrification of Brixton. It can't happen soon enough.



Jealousy is an ugly sight.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> no, largely on the tottneham riot thread.


Is butchersapron getting confused about which thread he's on then?


----------



## greenhouse (Aug 8, 2011)

Helicopter's persistent ?


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Curry looting http://yfrog.com/5hk9dsz


----------



## greenhouse (Aug 8, 2011)

Coming nearer, maybe at Currys ?


----------



## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Is butchersapron getting confused about which thread he's on then?



I think so. I've just had another look back over the first few pages of this thread and nothing fits this




butchersapron said:


> I mentioned that the _it can't happen because i can't see it_ types have just been burnt out. What else can't they see?


 
Nobody said 'It can't happen here', just 'it's not happening here now'


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

It now looks like the original police story about the shooting in Tottenham was a bit inaccurate. Surprise.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns?intcmp=239

Doubts have emerged over whether Mark Duggan, whose death at the hands of police sparked the weekend's Tottenham riots, was killed during an exchange of fire .
The Guardian understands that initial ballistics tests on a bullet, found lodged in a police radio worn by an officer during Thursday's incident, suggested it was police issue – and therefore had not been fired by Duggan.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

greenhouse, please use a different and larger font, your posts are near enough unreadable. thanks.


----------



## drpepperrrr (Aug 8, 2011)




----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Map of all the trouble in London tonight


----------



## greenhouse (Aug 8, 2011)

apparently Currys is quiet and empty now, has Tescos been trashed ? or did they have their own security forces ?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

cybertect said:


> I think so. I've just had another look back over the first few pages of this thread and nothing fits this
> 
> Nobody said 'It can't happen here', just 'it's not happening here now'


Yes, i was. Apols. Still doesn't clear up why truxta asked me about a riot. Out of order.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

greenhouse said:


> apparently Currys is quiet and empty now, has Tescos been trashed ? or did they have their own security forces ?



Big fences at least. Would you please increase your font size?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

The helicopter we can hear.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, i was. Apols. Still doesn't clear up why truxta asked me about a riot. Out of order.



If you don't get it then just leave it. Was nothing to do with you.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> If you don't get it then just leave it. Was nothing to do with you.


You asking me a question had nothing to do with me? And you tell me to leave it. Here's your chance to pout your lesson into practice.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, i was. Apols. Still doesn't clear up why truxta asked me about a riot. Out of order.


No, you blundered in here making no sense and people were confused about what the fuck you were on about and did their best to unravel what it was you meant. Not out of order.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> Just seen a load of teenagers and young men carrying flatscreens down Barnwell Road towards Railton Road. They're heading under the bridge on Mayall Road toward Somerleyton Road. I can see a a police helicopter over central Brixton. Roll on the gentrification of Brixton. It can't happen soon enough.



As minnie the minx says that is a joke isnt it?

As for riots- they all had looting. Including the 81 riot that now is called an "Uprising" and is now seen as largely excusable( i prefer the term riot).

Riots always have been contradictory things. Some want to fight the police for a specific reason ( the shooting in Tottenham), some want to loot and some want to do both. It also includes setting fire to things as well. Someone said to me they could see why someone might loot a shop but why set it alight?

Its history that changes the perception of a riot.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Riot police on foot approaching Curry's now according to Twitter.  Doubt there's anything left to nick


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Oh dear, you post in the wrong thread, I ask you to clarify, and now there's a lesson involved? Seriously, go to bed.

@ Butchers, obv.


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Are you joking?


No. Let the bourgeoisie come in hordes.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> No, you blundered in here making no sense and people were confused about what the fuck you were on about and did their best to unravel what it was you meant. Not out of order.



No i didn't. I meant you. Everyone knew what i meant. Everyone.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Map of all the trouble in London tonight



Nothing doing in Peckham or Lewisham???


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2011)

I





TruXta said:


> Oh dear, you post in the wrong thread, I ask you to clarify, and now there's a lesson involved? Seriously, go to bed.
> 
> @ Butchers, obv.


No, you asked me if i thought a riot had happened. Nothing to do with what i posted. More to do with what Mrs magpie posted - the only person on the thread talking about riots.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Riot police on foot approaching Curry's now according to Twitter. Doubt there's anything left to nick



The map you put up might explain why Currys etc got done. The Police are probably overstretched tonight trying to cover the other areas affected.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Nothing doing in Peckham or Lewisham???



Why?  Is there?  Or do you want there to be?  Or are you confused as to why nothing's happening there?


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I
> No, you asked me if i thought a riot had happened. Nothing to do with what i posted. More to do with what Mrs magpie posted - the only person on the thread talking about riots.



No I fucking didn't. I asked you to clarify your initial referrals to "stuff" and "ideas" that people, some people, had laughed at. Were these ideas riots, rioting? I've said as much twice already. Turns out you were in the wrong thread anyway. That's all there is to it, the rest you're making up.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> No. Let the bourgeoisie come in hordes.



Why?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> The map you put up might explain why Currys etc got done. The Police are probably overstretched tonight trying to cover the other areas affected.



Then again, maybe they're just letting them loot everything as looting a property is better than physical confrontation?  Can you imagine the uproar if someone (as in a looter) got injured?


----------



## drpepperrrr (Aug 8, 2011)

Just saw a woman with a flatscreen got kicked down on the ground by a couple of guys to get her tv...


----------



## katie_m (Aug 8, 2011)

Chopper seems to have moved on.  All quiet (ish) on Barnwell Road.


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> As minnie the minx says that is a joke isnt it?
> 
> As for riots- they all had looting. Including the 81 riot that now is called an "Uprising" and is now seen as largely excusable( i prefer the term riot).
> 
> ...



If they haven't been woken up by the helicopters, the middle classes are in their beds. There is work tomorrow. They tend not to riot. There's a world to run.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Well my son and lodger are still locked in the pub in CHL. I doubt they'll be in a fit state for work tomorrow.


----------



## chavezcat (Aug 8, 2011)

dear lord is that a different chopper coming?


----------



## katie_m (Aug 8, 2011)

I thought it was the original chopper, just getting further away.


----------



## stevebradley (Aug 8, 2011)

Just what Brixton needs - a dose of recreational looting/rioting/vandalism. That'll really do wonders for the neighbourhood.

Brixton's reputation as an area to the 'outside world' has been slowly improving a lot in recent years. This just sets the clock back, and will hurt everyone in Brixton one way or another.


----------



## hassan (Aug 8, 2011)

kicked off again, was quiet, now hearing police sirens and helicopter all the way down in stockwell


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

drpepperrrr said:


> Just saw a woman with a flatscreen got kicked down on the ground by a couple of guys to get her tv...



Looters mugging the looters

No sympathy


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well my son and lodger are still locked in the pub in CHL. I doubt they'll be in a fit state for work tomorrow.



But they'll have a good excuse!


----------



## tar1984 (Aug 8, 2011)

Wonder if cash converters will be busy in the coming weeks?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> If they haven't been woken up by the helicopters, the middle classes are in their beds. There is work tomorrow. They tend not to riot. There's a world to run.



Are you on a wind-up?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> Just what Brixton needs - a dose of recreational looting/rioting/vandalism. That'll really do wonders for the neighbourhood.
> 
> Brixton's reputation as an area to the 'outside world' has been slowly improving a lot in recent years. This just sets the clock back, and will hurt everyone in Brixton one way or another.



Didn't you post on the old boards?


----------



## chavezcat (Aug 8, 2011)

Nope over here again in central. And annoyed anyone tried to burn Morley's. Unless there is something i don't know, and it is evil, nice to have an independent store on the high street.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Are you on a wind-up?


yes!? 
and why do you have that name?


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Why?


More peace, quiet; less crime and violence. See the merit in that?

Imagine a world populated entirely by the underclass. They'd soon run out of flatscreens.

I don't see any romance in the underclass.


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

ddraig said:


> yes!?
> and why do you have that name?


What's wrong with my name?


----------



## stevebradley (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Didn't you post on the old boards?



Yes. Why the surprise...?


----------



## katie_m (Aug 8, 2011)

BBC reporting 30 firefighters tackling blaze in S London.  Is that somewhere in Brixton?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

ddraig said:


> yes!?
> and why do you have that name?



what's my name got to do with me asking if Emet's on a wind-up?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

chavezcat said:


> Nope over here again in central. And annoyed anyone tried to burn Morley's. Unless there is something i don't know, and it is evil, nice to have an independent store on the high street.



It's not that independent. No longer owned by the Morley family.  A small* foreign chain IIRC.

*small presence in UK, might be huge in the Netherlands.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> Yes. Why the surprise...?



oh, no reason, it's just you're listed as a new member.  Maybe you have to have a certain number of posts to become a not new member


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

katie_m said:


> BBC reporting 30 firefighters tackling blaze in S London. Is that somewhere in Brixton?



6 engines in Brixton reported earlier.  So probably.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Saw this on the West London News Site



> 0241: Police have said that rival gangs are now starting fights at King’s College Hospital after two gang members were admitted with minor wounds.



As if hospital staff don't have a difficult enough job


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Then again, maybe they're just letting them loot everything as looting a property is better than physical confrontation? Can you imagine the uproar if someone (as in a looter) got injured?



Good point. From what I saw the Police were pushing rioters back rather than directly confronting them.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> More peace, quiet; less crime and violence. See the merit in that?
> 
> Imagine a world populated entirely by the underclass. They'd soon run out of flatscreens.
> 
> I don't see any romance in the underclass.



Yeah right, if you say so.  Definitely on a wind-up


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> Just what Brixton needs - a dose of recreational looting/rioting/vandalism. That'll really do wonders for the neighbourhood.
> 
> Brixton's reputation as an area to the 'outside world' has been slowly improving a lot in recent years. This just sets the clock back, and will hurt everyone in Brixton one way or another.



Nothing that the council hasn't been doing for a long time.


----------



## chavezcat (Aug 8, 2011)

@quimcunx- I didn't know that, so many apologies for my ignorance. Anyway, I'd be happy tonight with no choppers, as i think everyone would!


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

chavezcat said:


> @quimcunx- I didn't know that, so many apologies for my ignorance. Anyway, I'd be happy tonight with no choppers, as i think everyone would!



Fucking woke the SO up, the bastards. And they're keeping me up.


----------



## Mation (Aug 8, 2011)

Helicopter's fucked off at long last...


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Thank fuck for that.


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah right, if you say so. Definitely on a wind-up


Not at all.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> what's my name got to do with me asking if Emet's on a wind-up?


not your name, emet's, sorry
just back to new boards after doing 3x14hr shifts in a row


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> Not at all.



In that case you're just being a dick. Gotcha.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

ddraig said:


> not your name, emet's, sorry
> just back to new boards after doing 3x14hr shifts in a row



Ah good, I've had the name for years


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> More peace, quiet; less crime and violence. See the merit in that?
> 
> Imagine a world populated entirely by the underclass. They'd soon run out of flatscreens.
> 
> I don't see any romance in the underclass.



The thing is Emet riots are not a recent thing. They often happened due to peaceful demos turned violent. Also they happen when people dont think they are going to get justice. The Police have shot people before and the actual truth - whether they were justified or not - never is known.

Whether riots can be seen as "revolutionary" is an interesting question. The 81 riot has been romanticised or historically perceived as a justifiable "uprising".

The concept of an Underclass is contentious. Though the working class has often been split between those who regard them as respectable and the rest. I would also draw a distinction between people who are gangster/ mafia types and people who just dont have much.

Riots are not nice or predictable. Even when the reasons behind them are understandable.

As we live in a unequal society I dont blame people for looting Currys. I wouldnt support the looting of a the corner shop but i dont give a toss about Currys.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Looks like they've had a bit of trouble up Streatham as well





http://yfrog.com/z/h0wt8caej


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> The thing is Emet riots are not a recent thing. They often happened due to peaceful demos turned violent. Also they happen when people dont think they are going to get justice. The Police have shot people before and the actual truth - whether they were justified or not - never is known.
> 
> Whether riots can be seen as "revolutionary" is an interesting question. The 81 riot has been romanticised or historically perceived as a justifiable "uprising".
> 
> ...



I wonder what classes all those student rioters belonged to?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mation said:


> Helicopter's fucked off at long last...



Peace at last


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Quite a few people* been making their way up the hill in the last few minutes.  Maybe it's finished for the night.

If they were looters they weren't very good, got mugged or stuck to pocket-sized gadgets and sports attire.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Looks like they've had a bit of trouble up Streatham as well
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is that you messing up the tags or the board?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> Just what Brixton needs - a dose of recreational looting/rioting/vandalism. That'll really do wonders for the neighbourhood.
> 
> Brixton's reputation as an area to the 'outside world' has been slowly improving a lot in recent years. This just sets the clock back, and will hurt everyone in Brixton one way or another.



No it wont set the clock back. These riots are clearly across London not just Brixton. If anything it will put Londons safety in question in the run up to the Olympics.

If that is what you think of this riot I take it you think the same of the 1981 riot/ uprising / disorder?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

chavezcat said:


> @quimcunx- I didn't know that, so many apologies for my ignorance. Anyway, I'd be happy tonight with no choppers, as i think everyone would!



That's ok.  It's still Brixton's Morleys. I still feel loyalty to it if you can feel loyalty to a shop.  Not sure if the family still have shares and my info on owners might be out of date now.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Is that you messing up the tags or the board?



My fault.  Sorry!


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> oh, no reason, it's just you're listed as a new member. Maybe you have to have a certain number of posts to become a not new member



Its Urban75 resident LD I think. The new boards seem to have mislaid some posters number of posts from old boards.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Quite a few people* been making their way up the hill in the last few minutes. Maybe it's finished for the night.
> 
> If they were looters they weren't very good, got mugged or stuck to pocket-sized gadgets and sports attire.



May have dumped their 42-inchers at a friend's nearer to Curry's.  They're not the lightest things to carry.  Maybe Curry's had run out by the time they got there


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Its Urban75 resident LD I think. The new boards seem to have mislaid some posters number of posts from old boards.



Yes, I knew I recognised the name as a local councillor.  Maybe he has to go past 100 posts to achieve non-new poster status?


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> My fault. Sorry!



Well? You gonna edit that mess?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> No it wont set the clock back. These riots are clearly across London not just Brixton. If anything it will put Londons safety in question in the run up to the Olympics.
> 
> If that is what you think of this riot I take it you think the same of the 1981 riot/ uprising / disorder?



I agree.  I don't think it will set it back.  As much as I hate the yuppy invasion, it has been invaded by lots of media types and these are the people that will publish stories saying how much they still love Brixton and encouraging more of them to move here.  I reckon anyway


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Well? You gonna edit that mess?



If you insist.

*trudges miles up the page*

ha!  No I'm not.  It's too late to edit it now!


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I wonder what classes all those student rioters belonged to?



I don't give a shit, the cause was just. And if a few thousand middle class kids and their parents learned exactly what the police will do to maintain the edicts of the state then well and good. At this point it is clear we are all due for an ungreased shafting, and on the issue of fees we shouldn't crow just because some of those kids are more privileged than ourselves.


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> In that case you're just being a dick. Gotcha.



What is the problem with pointing out that Brixton would be a very much less crime-ridden place if it was populated by people less given to committing crime.

I was in a convenience store on Railton Road last week. I witnessed a bunch of teenagers stealing alcoholic drink from the store. I would have liked to have told the proprietor but I had to think about whether I wanted a knife in my gut.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't give a shit, the cause was just. And if a few thousand middle class kids and their parents learned exactly what the police will do to maintain the edicts of the state then well and good. At this point it is clear we are all due for an ungreased shafting, and on the issue of fees we shouldn't crow just because some of those kids are more privileged than ourselves.



That was directed at Emet who seems to think rioting and looting is a working class thing.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> What is the problem with pointing out that Brixton would be a very much less crime-ridden place if it was populated by people less given to committing crime.
> 
> I was in a convenience store on Railton Road last week. I witnessed a bunch of teenagers stealing alcoholic drink from the store. I would have liked to have told the proprietor but I had to think about whether I wanted a knife in my gut.



How do you know they weren't middle class teenagers?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

oh *steps down from soapbox*


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> If you insist.
> 
> *trudges miles up the page*
> 
> ha! No I'm not. It's too late to edit it now!



 You're worse than the Visigoths.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> What is the problem with pointing out that Brixton would be a very much less crime-ridden place if it was populated by people less given to committing crime.
> 
> I was in a convenience store on Railton Road last week. I witnessed a bunch of teenagers stealing alcoholic drink from the store. I would have liked to have told the proprietor but I had to think about whether I wanted a knife in my gut.



More to the point, if you live in Brixton (and I assume you do), why did you even move here if the working classes/poor people/uneducated people bother you that much?


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That was directed at Emet who seems to think rioting and looting is a working class thing.



Countryside Alliance anyone?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Tweets that Argos in Streatham is being looted.  FFS

And on that note, I'm off to bed before the helicopter decides to return


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> The thing is Emet riots are not a recent thing. They often happened due to peaceful demos turned violent. Also they happen when people dont think they are going to get justice. The Police have shot people before and the actual truth - whether they were justified or not - never is known.
> 
> Whether riots can be seen as "revolutionary" is an interesting question. The 81 riot has been romanticised or historically perceived as a justifiable "uprising".
> 
> ...



The riot in Brixton is not much about justice, if at all. There is recreational destruction and criminal acquisition, that is about all.


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> How do you know they weren't middle class teenagers?


I've lived in Brixton for 23 years. I've learned the social layout, just as I have elsewhere.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> I've lived in Brixton for 23 years. I've learned the social layout, just as I have elsewhere.



Fair enough, but stop tarring all non-middle class with the same brush.

Are you Irish?


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> More to the point, if you live in Brixton (and I assume you do), why did you even move here if the working classes/poor people/uneducated people bother you that much?


The working classes don't bother me at all, nor the poor. The people I saw tonight weren't working class.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2011)

you can tell by looking at them


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> The working classes don't bother me at all, nor the poor. The people I saw tonight weren't working class.



Were they gentrifiers then?


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Were they gentrifiers then?


They certainly weren't gentry.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> They certainly weren't gentry.



So not working class, not gentry.  Ah, unemployed maybe?

Brixton on Sky News now


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2011)

Wonder what the Police will do tomorrow, there'll be even more kids on the street in London tomorrow night.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Wonder what the Police will do tomorrow, there'll be even more kids on the street in London tomorrow night.



Doubt there's much left to loot in Brixton now.  Maybe protecting the shops that haven't been looted?

Reports of smaller independent shops (eg. offies/corner shops being looted now).  Wish they'd all just fuck off home and get a grip

Goodnight


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So not working class, not gentry. Ah, unemployed maybe?
> 
> Brixton on Sky News now



With the exception of the notion of 'the undeserving poor' - I'm not being paterrnalistic - look here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underclass

Unemployment is part of the definition, but not all of it.


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

If you have the time try an interview with David Simon, creator of 'The Wire' -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qulcqNMHVic
He's got a really interesting take on underclass communities.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

What the hell is wrong with these people?  What has anything that went on in Tottenham got to do with Brixton?  There is no excuse for this sort of behaviour, they're harming themselves just as much as the rest of us who stayed away.

It's the equivalent of shitting in your own bed.

I cannot understand why so many people round here seem to think that this is acceptable behaviour.  It's nothing to do with justice, it's nothing to do with revenge, it's just idiot opportunists thinking that they somehow have a 'right' to behave like animals.


----------



## nashers21 (Aug 8, 2011)

Has anyone ventured out to try and get a bus/tube yet?  I have heard that some buses running through the high st but tfl still says on divert.  Don't want to head out for no reason if I can go back to bed for an hour to try and snooze now the helicopter seems to have disappeared for 5 minutes!  Thanks.


----------



## Chilavert (Aug 8, 2011)

My girlfriend just called to say that the tube station is closed, but that the buses are running.

I'm now getting back to set up my new 60" 3D tv....


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

There's a strange person asleep in my front room....presumably a waif from the disturbances...my son and lodger were still locked inside premises on CHL at about 3:30 am so I have no idea of what was happening after I went to bed


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

Live BBC report from the High Street a little after 02.00am :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14439898


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

Going down the hill this morning I noticed that there were some plod outside Arlington Electrical on the hill, and the front window smashed in.

I can't help but imagine some yoof on a bike going down the hill balancing a fridge freezer on the handlebars...

Also further along CHL (past the railway bridge towards the Barrier Block) there was a smashed up car, and a mark in the middle of the road that looked like there had been a fire.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

Buses are running with some on diversion. Heard a fair bit going on last night and the helicopters about but did not stroll out to nose round. Really enjoyed Brixton Splash yesterday, was a bit lively but not bad.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Thanks L_C, yeah, I heard that on 5Live (iirc) last. I rang my son and lodger at 3:30 to say I thought it unlikely that the police would let them leave and go the few hundred yards from work to home, so they'd best get some sleep there if they could. When I woke up at 7:30 this morning to take the dog out there was someone asleep on the sofa downstairs. I'm about to go to the corner shop (hopefully still intact) in the hope that there are cigarettes on the premises.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

Funny thing for me is I was looking at shirts in H&M on Sat, couldn't be bothered with the long (Sales) queues and thought I'd go back this morning.....


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yes, I knew I recognised the name as a local councillor. Maybe he has to go past 100 posts to achieve non-new poster status?



Oh i see. This is the new board saying that people are new until a 100 posts.

Not like me the new boards already given me "Addict" status.

If u have less than a 100 posts ru in the posting underclass?


----------



## Secateur (Aug 8, 2011)

Just read the first few pages of the thread, some of you look a little silly now!

My walk to work just got Weirder and weirder..curry sealed off....to footlocker burnt out! Insane


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

I don't feel silly at all. I went out last night and looked and saw and heard nothing despite reports on twitter that there was rioting a couple of hundred yards from my house. Some of the stuff on twitter last night and the night before was unsubstantiated twaddle. When I saw saw the hendopolis twitter stuff I knew that was someone I could trust. I was ringing my son who was locked in his work along with co-workers on police orders and I was a bit worried (mainly because of the possibility of fire). I've been out and about in the last half hour and it doesn't look like any of the riots I've lived through in Brixton. I would call it sporadic looting which is not the same thing.


----------



## netbob (Aug 8, 2011)

Ran into Rachel Heyward (Coldhabour councillor) who said there was some incident near Southwick House about 18:30 yesterday. May not be related though I guess.

Just wandered down to Currys - loads of bits of broken paving slab on the ground plus various bits of packaging.

Still a fire engine outside Foot Locker.

Nandos has had it's front door smashed in.

General smell of burning in the air.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

yeh a riot generally tends to include more fighting with the police.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 8, 2011)

memespring said:


> Nandos has had it's front door smashed in.



According to all the experts and eye witnesses on Twitter last night, Nandos should be a pile of ashes.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Well, I'm off to the centre of Brixton to do some shopping. I hope the Market is unaffected because I need to get some fruit. To be honest I'm a bit pissed off that Tescos isn't smouldering ruins. If there is one thing that's wrecking my community right now it's sodding Tescos (well, and Lambeth Council but wrecking Brixton seems to have been their default position for decades).


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

There was police tape across the pavement outside KFC this morning so it is possible the market won't be allowed to open today.  Buses aren't stopping along that stretch and the tube station is closed.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 8, 2011)

According to some reports on Twitter London should be  a big smoking cinder this morning.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> What is the problem with pointing out that Brixton would be a very much less crime-ridden place if it was populated by people less given to committing crime.
> 
> I was in a convenience store on Railton Road last week. I witnessed a bunch of teenagers stealing alcoholic drink from the store. I would have liked to have told the proprietor but I had to think about whether I wanted a knife in my gut.


I was in the Beehive last week when an anemic shifty looking individual came right in my face saying "Guvnor you look like someone who wants a nice bit of fish"- thrusting a freshly shop-lifted bit of Salmon from Sainsburys right under my nose.
"Not if it's stolen" quoth I
"Well get you - fuck off then - this is BRIXTON not Chelsea" says he. "Why don'tcha just fuck off up the West End?"
First time I've been balled out of a pub for being too posh and honest - at least since I was  a student in Manchester in the 70s.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Well, lets hope they aren't stopping grannies from going out and about. Will report back later.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Lots of people getting off bus before brixton. Hoping to get on tube or buses terminating?


----------



## killer b (Aug 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Funny thing for me is I was looking at shirts in H&M on Sat, couldn't be bothered with the long (Sales) queues and thought I'd go back this morning.....


should have gone back last night.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> There was police tape across the pavement outside KFC this morning so it is possible the market won't be allowed to open today. Buses aren't stopping along that stretch and the tube station is closed.


How does one get to Sloane Square for the Monday midday Prom then? Walk to Bedord Road and catch a 137 I suppose.


----------



## peterkro (Aug 8, 2011)

Acquisitional capitalist society,TV blaring buy,buy,buy 24hours a day for you to be a real human being no 60" flat screen means your a failure.Perfectly logical to take one from Currys et al. I do have a problem with small business's being targeted although keep in mind some of those are thieving bastards as well.(I'm actually only posting to see if I've become a newbie )


----------



## Billie Piper (Aug 8, 2011)

peterkro said:


> Acquisitional capitalist society,TV blaring buy,buy,buy 24hours a day for you to be a real human being no 60" flat screen means your a failure.Perfectly logical to take one from Currys et al.



What a load of bullshit.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, I'm off to the centre of Brixton to do some shopping. I hope the Market is unaffected because I need to get some fruit. To be honest I'm a bit pissed off that Tescos isn't smouldering ruins. If there is one thing that's wrecking my community right now it's sodding Tescos (well, and Lambeth Council but wrecking Brixton seems to have been their default position for decades).


Lambeth Council demolished the oldest house in Acre Lane (1803) so Tescos could build it's vile retail shed and car-park in 1985. In the name of "regenerating" Brixton they managed to kill off Brixton market at a stroke. Tescos put a restrictive covenant on their old premises in Brixton Martet so it couldn't be used for food retail for 7 years. Old history I know, but just like the riots, the effects can be permanent.

Personally I'm quite pleased if Footlocker has been destroyed. I remember an article in the Daily Mail (!?!) back in 1988 when they were praising the efforts of the manager of Burtons (men's clothier) on that Footlocker site. That was before Lambeth Regeneration got hold of it and turned it into an airport shopping mall shop.  The Burtons manager was seen as an aspiring black role model - at least by the Daily Mail (he shared my surname, Warner, which is why I remember it).


----------



## kittyP (Aug 8, 2011)

Crumbs eh?

Managed to sleep right through it all.

I hope this is just a blip


----------



## peterkro (Aug 8, 2011)

Billie Piper said:


> What a load of bullshit.


Incisive criticism,you'll do well.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Aug 8, 2011)

Looked a proper mess this morning. Saddest of all is that the nasty loan shop opposite Nandos was untouched.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Right, last night there were reports of rioting at the front of Southwyck House (which I went out and checked last night and heard nothing). All the shops there are fine. I saw one burnt bin bag, a few broken bottles (that's nothing new) and a pizza delivery bag on the wall along with a soggy uneaten pizza. Twitterers may call that a riot, because I don't so reports of me being silly give me the last laugh. The market and the vast majority of small independent shops are open. Greggs is shut as is Iceland. I could see broken but semi intact windows on KFC, Morleys etc. Tube closed, buses going up and Brixton Road. The main difficulty for me was accessing a cash point. i went to Lloyds on Acre lane, bit of a queue, but that was the extent of my inconvenience.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 8, 2011)

ChrisFilter said:


> Looked a proper mess this morning. Saddest of all is that the nasty loan shop opposite Nandos was untouched.


Apparently William Hills in Coldharbour Lane was attacked, so that might be a consolation.


----------



## Fenian (Aug 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> As minnie the minx says that is a joke isnt it?
> 
> As for riots- they all had looting. Including the 81 riot that now is called an "Uprising" and is now seen as largely excusable( i prefer the term riot).
> 
> ...


This is a very good point, I'm just working my way through this thread now.  At the risk of sounding like some bloody hack I think that Lenin said every uprising would have people with mixed motivations involved (no not the one with McCartney the other one).  There was a lot of concern about that shooting which was not addressed, plus a history of disinformation from the police.  I did see in early evening one cop give a youth a mighty wallop with his truncheon but did not catch what had gone on before or after, and the policeman just moved on.  I spoke to two police when I was trying to get home in the early hours who were professional and as helpful as they could be in the circumstances on the seal-off-the-road thing (still didn't let me through because they said if anything happened to me they'd get in trouble.  OK fair enough.)  I cut through a wee alley and there were blazing vehicles and a few folk milling but not much else at that time.  Taking the day off


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

A woman on the estate saw me coming back with shopping. She had her grandson staying with her from Ireland and his frantic Mum had seen stuff on Sky news in Ireland that made her fear for his safety.  It's that kind of thing that doesn't help anyone. All it does is create an atmosphere of fear.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Where were the blazing vehicles, Fenian?


----------



## uk benzo (Aug 8, 2011)

It pisses me off that these opportunist little twats (although a minority) piss all over the efforts made by their predecessors who literally fought against institutionalised racism. These opportunist shits have no idea! Their predecessors fought for their rights and these kids are fighting for flat screen TVs and trainers!!!


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

uk benzo said:


> It pisses me off that these opportunist little twats (although a minority) piss all over the efforts made by their predecessors who literally fought against institutionalised racism. These opportunist shits have no idea! Their predecessors fought for their rights and these kids are fighting for flat screen TVs and trainers!!!



... which they probably already have perfectly good ones of anyway.


----------



## Fenian (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Where were the blazing vehicles, Fenian?


Outside my flat were two fires, now you mention (I thought at first vehicles) may have been just some other stuff in a bonfire.  Took pics but have a crappy phone, will send you privately my number.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Thanks L_C, yeah, I heard that on 5Live (iirc) last. I rang my son and lodger at 3:30 to say I thought it unlikely that the police would let them leave and go the few hundred yards from work to home, so they'd best get some sleep there if they could. When I woke up at 7:30 this morning to take the dog out there was someone asleep on the sofa downstairs. I'm about to go to the corner shop (hopefully still intact) in the hope that there are cigarettes on the premises.



Are the electrical goods that the cat brought in last night in good working order?


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 8, 2011)

This is all very depressing.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> This is all very depressing.


It's really not as bad as some sections of the media and 99.99% of twitter reports. Most of the smashed windows are some sort of glass, thick plastic sandwich so no access to what was behind them.


----------



## saltounpepper (Aug 8, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> This is all very depressing.



Especially given Splash went relatively smoothly by all accounts.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Where were the blazing vehicles, Fenian?





Fenian said:


> Outside my flat were two fires, now you mention (I thought at first vehicles) may have been just some other stuff in a bonfire.


LOL. You should be on Twitter, fella.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Are the electrical goods that the cat brought in last night in good working order?


Nah, turned out it was just a wheelie bin full of misleading tweets.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

saltounpepper said:


> Especially given Splash went relatively smoothly by all accounts.



I didn't go to Splash but I hope that people don't try and blame last night's problems on the Splash event as it does seem a well enjoyed event by the majority of people.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it turned out that the majority of the troublemakers aren't even Brixton residents.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Well William Hills HAS been trashed. Police tapes prevent anyone going onto Brixton Road. Fortunately Brixton Southern Region station is open normally, so that solves the transport problem.  I passed a very shocked looking motorist whose car had been smashed up outside "The Viaduct" (the posh people's Barrier Block).  I normally hate cars - but I felt sorry for someone coming accross his property totally destroyed.


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 8, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> This is all very depressing.





Mrs Magpie said:


> It's really not as bad as some sections of the media and 99.99% of twitter reports. Most of the smashed windows are some sort of glass, thick plastic sandwich so no access to what was behind them.



I kind of mean that I'm constantly telling people how much I love living here, how great it is, only to be met with jokes about "riots" and shootings etc.  Today I have messages from people asking if I'm ok etc etc... all down, no doubt, to some opportunistic twats with no real axe to grind, just wanting to get some free stuff.  You can tell people about all the good stuff but when they see this shit on TV, that's what they think about where we live.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, lets hope they aren't stopping grannies from going out and about. Will report back later.



A reporter was reporting from the High Road and it looked like it was taped off from MacShitey's and there was no pedestrians on that side of the street.  A bus was stopping, but couldn't see if people were being let off, but they said the tube was shut


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> I didn't go to Splash but I hope that people don't try and blame last night's problems on the Splash event as it does seem a well enjoyed event by the majority of people.
> 
> I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it turned out that the majority of the troublemakers aren't even Brixton residents.



Course people aren't going to blame Splash.  It had absolutely nothing to do with the looting


----------



## jakejb79 (Aug 8, 2011)

What a shame this has happened, this wasn't a riot against the police it was just an opportunity that people took to loot from the shops. Looking through some of the picture of Brixton and indeed of Tottenham (where they set fire to houses) it's shocking.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Nah, turned out it was just a wheelie bin full of misleading tweets.



I hope he killed them, otherwise he's useless


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Nah, turned out it was just a wheelie bin full of misleading tweets.



for those of us pontificating about cupcakes earlier, the guardian's blog reports that ms cupcake was handing them out for free this morning by kfc to show that 'brixton is about love... There is kindness in brixton'.  i like this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

i thought brixton was more about drugs than cupcakes


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

Nandos is closed until further notice - apparently the Clapham High Street one got its window kicked in too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> Nandos is closed until further notice - apparently the Clapham High Street one got its window kicked in too.


a victory for gastronomy.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought brixton was more about drugs than cupcakes


who's to say it can't be about both?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

tufty79 said:


> who's to say it can't be about both?


so that's what's being handed out


----------



## kittyP (Aug 8, 2011)

The splash was really god fun! We had a a boogie, ate some lovely food and much fun was had.

I am glad that one of the BBC reporters said that The Slpash went off well and most people had well gone home before this started.
It would have been shit if, what is a great community event, had in some way been blamed for this.

I am too with Mrs M that it seems to have been very much blown out of proportion (in terms of Brixton).

I also think though, that even if the looting there was was just opportunists nicking stuff who do not have a political issue, there are still far too many disaffected (young?) people, very poor people who feel ignored and who have bad relationships with the police and their communities. Not 'black people'.
It does seem like whether they mean to or not, they are saying "look, we are here, you can't ignore us and hope we will go away", especially in this current very difficult economic time.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

tufty79 said:


> for those of us pontificating about cupcakes earlier, the guardian's blog reports that ms cupcake was handing them out for free this morning by kfc to show that 'brixton is about love... There is kindness in brixton'. i like this.



Really, I've never had one yet.  This could be the ideal opportunity, or has she run out?


----------



## Dooby (Aug 8, 2011)

tufty79 said:


> for those of us pontificating about cupcakes earlier, the guardian's blog reports that ms cupcake was handing them out for free this morning by kfc to show that 'brixton is about love... There is kindness in brixton'. i like this.


Oh that's what was going on! I passed them doing that this morning, was bit confused and indeed felt WAY too ill to go near cakes..


----------



## CH1 (Aug 8, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> I kind of mean that I'm constantly telling people how much I love living here, how great it is, only to be met with jokes about "riots" and shootings etc. Today I have messages from people asking if I'm ok etc etc... all down, no doubt, to some opportunistic twats with no real axe to grind, just wanting to get some free stuff. You can tell people about all the good stuff but when they see this shit on TV, that's what they think about where we live.


It's always been like that in Brixton. I was warned not to come here in 1977 - before anyone had heard of rioting. Then it was mugging people perceived as the threat. Back then many (most?) people were actually overtly racist - the idea of multicultural Britain is actually relatively new.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

CH1 said:


> It's always been like that in Brixton. I was warned not to come here in 1977 - before anyone had heard of rioting. Then it was mugging people perceived as the threat. Back then many (most?) people were actually overtly racist - the idea of multicultural Britain is actually relatively new.



Yeah, there would have been NF marches about that time. I remember them


----------



## CH1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Dooby said:


> Oh that's what was going on! I passed them doing that this morning, was bit confused and indeed felt WAY too ill to go near cakes..


Shame I missed this. Really curious to see what they taste like. Although judging by the size of those in any proximity to their shop, it's not gonna help my diet!!


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Aug 8, 2011)

kittyP said:


> I am glad that one of the BBC reporters said that The Slpash went off well and most people had well gone home before this started.
> It would have been shit if, what is a great community event, had in some way been blamed for this.



Agree entirely, it's a sad irony that Splash is about how much Brixton has moved forward since the riots


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Possibly the most confusing tweet I saw last night was some EDL bloke saying he was at Brixton Splash and there was no trouble happening.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So not working class, not gentry. Ah, unemployed maybe?
> 
> Brixton on Sky News now



Don't be tarring all 'unemployed' with the same brush now either! With the economy sinking like a stone, massively increasing numbers of unemployed want nothing more than to get off benefits.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

CH1 said:


> I was in the Beehive last week when an anemic shifty looking individual came right in my face saying "Guvnor you look like someone who wants a nice bit of fish"- thrusting a freshly shop-lifted bit of Salmon from Sainsburys right under my nose.
> "Not if it's stolen" quoth I
> "Well get you - fuck off then - this is BRIXTON not Chelsea" says he. "Why don'tcha just fuck off up the West End?"
> First time I've been balled out of a pub for being too posh and honest - at least since I was a student in Manchester in the 70s.



He was right though, there aren't many parts of London where you can avoid the convenience of having your shopping brought to you in the pub, if you sit there long enough.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Don't be tarring all 'unemployed' with the same brush now either! With the economy sinking like a stone, massively increasing numbers of unemployed want nothing more than to get off benefits.



*I'm not!*  I was asking Emet if he was


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

One commenter sums it up well on the Nandos page on Facebook.

"Its shockin that ppl dnt av morals any more! How ppl tink its ok 2 do wot they r doin is completly rong,i hope they all suffer for ther rong doings x"

apparently.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> One commenter sums it up well on the Nandos page on Facebook.
> 
> "Its shockin that ppl dnt av morals any more! How ppl tink its ok 2 do wot they r doin is completly rong,i hope they all suffer for ther rong doings x"
> 
> apparently.


Spellings are the healing of the nation?


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

.


----------



## Chilavert (Aug 8, 2011)

Sky News live from KFC now.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

Live from KFC? Better than pre-recorded from Nandos but still grim.


----------



## Chilavert (Aug 8, 2011)

Quite!

A few of the journos were congregating in the Ritzy earlier. On the plus side I doubt they'll be taking over the square again for the time being.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Chilavert said:


> Quite!
> 
> A few of the journos were congregating in the Ritzy earlier. On the plus side I doubt they'll be taking over the square again for the time being.



Why? Ritzy tables taking up all the space?

Oh right, you mean the Ritzy, not the journos


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

memespring said:


> Ran into Rachel Heyward (Coldhabour councillor) who said there was some incident near Southwick House about 18:30 yesterday. May not be related though I guess.


I think that was the flaming binbag I reported to you when I saw you in the market today. twitter reports of large bands of dangerous rampaging youths close to my house were grossly exaggerated.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

LOL. I was by the Ritzy and gave Chuka Umunna stick about MPs looting expenses (even if it was before his time). At least he smiled when I mentioned looting MPs and bankers.


----------



## Chilavert (Aug 8, 2011)

Yeah sorry Minnie, should've made that clearer.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Chilavert said:


> Yeah sorry Minnie, should've made that clearer.



I think the journos should stay there the whole day to piss the Ritzy off, although they must promise not to buy drinks from there


----------



## netbob (Aug 8, 2011)

Brixton road is closed - looks like forensics/photographers are doing their thing.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

memespring said:


> Brixton road is closed - looks like forensics/photographers are doing their thing.



Is *anything* open in Brixton High Road? What about M&S?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Is anything open in Brixton High Road? What about M&S?


closed down with boarded up windows.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

No Tory sarnies for you Minnie!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> closed down with boarded up windows.





TruXta said:


> No Tory sarnies for you Minnie!


 


Will all these shop employees still be paid whilst their workplaces are shut?  Hope so, it's not their fault they can't go to work


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Is *anything* open in Brixton High Road? What about M&S?


It's taped off from KFC to Atlantic Road - the tube isn't 'closed' as best I know, it's just taped off. Some/allb usses are going through though.

Everywhere else is open as per normal. Well, apart from at the 'retail park' (Halfords and Currys).


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> No Tory sarnies for you Minnie!


i made it up because i wanted to see how minnie would respond. i have no idea how m&s is.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> It's taped off from KFC to Atlantic Road - the tube isn't 'closed' as best I know, it's just taped off. Bus's are going through through.



Tube was shut earlier according to the news

I hope all these looters are happy that they can now no longer get their shopping (although I'd imagine a lot of them come from outside Brixton anyway)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i made it up because i wanted to see how minnie would respond.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

What about Poundland?   I need 2 Fray Bentos pies.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Tube station still shut according to TFL. Fuck it, I'll just go down to Clapham North instead.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 8, 2011)

streatham will serve you well if you can't get into the brixton one, quimmy.  can you fetch us some fake snickers bars while you're there please?


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Tube was shut earlier according to the news
> 
> I hope all these looters are happy that they can now no longer get their shopping (although I'd imagine a lot of them come from outside Brixton anyway)



They don't need anything, they went late night shopping already.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> They don't need anything, they went late night shopping already.


 
That wasn't food shopping though.  Even looters need to eat

Report live on Sky now


----------



## leanderman (Aug 8, 2011)

It will slow the pace of gentrification for a bit that's for sure.


----------



## Pie 1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Just thought I'd pop back to say how sorry I was to see all this unfold last night from afar here in CH.
The guys in our flat on Brix Rd near the tube said they had a bit of a sleepless night!

Sod's law: on Saturday morning, i'd literally just finished defending Brixton to a bunch of cuntbubbles on a whinging ex pat forum thread about 'shit Britain' 

Love to the neighbourhood.

(btw...If you fancy a laugh at some ex pat cunts who actually make Daily Mail readers seem rational, then here you go) 

http://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/121476-tottenham-riots-3.html


----------



## Winot (Aug 8, 2011)

leanderman said:


> It will slow the pace of gentrification for a bit that's for sure.



Don't worry: Federation Coffee is untouched.


----------



## colacubes (Aug 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> It's taped off from KFC to Atlantic Road - the tube isn't 'closed' as best I know, it's just taped off. Some/allb usses are going through though.
> 
> Everywhere else is open as per normal. Well, apart from at the 'retail park' (Halfords and Currys).



Now closed from KFC to junction with Stockwell Road as the forensics are working.   Nothing open apart from San Marino cafe (as you can get into it from Station Road.  Tube not open.  No busses or cars going through (although they were this morning).  Looks like boarding up work has started as KFC and M&S both have boards in now.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Pie 1 said:


> Just thought I'd pop back to say how sorry I was to see all this unfold last night from afar here in CH.
> The guys in our flat on Brix Rd near the tube said they had a bit of a sleepless night!
> 
> Sod's law: on Saturday morning, i'd literally just finished defending Brixton to a bunch of cuntbubbles on a whinging ex pat forum thread about 'shit Britain'
> ...



Blimey!



> Londoners, on the other hand, are feckless, workshy and socially deviant in nature, living off drug dealing, theft, robbery and the handling of stolen goods.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

nipsla said:


> Now closed from KFC to junction with Stockwell Road as the forensics are working. Nothing open apart from San Marino cafe (as you can get into it from Station Road. Tube not open. No busses or cars going through (although they were this morning). Looks like boarding up work has started as KFC and M&S both have boards in now.



I reckon M&S will open fairly quickly as it only got its windows smashed as it has shutters behind the windows.  Would imagine not much damage that can't be replaced in McShitey's and Kenfucky.  Shoe shops obviously fucked.  Curry's will need to order a bit more stock and besides broken windows/damaged stands, not sure if it sustained any more damage.  Nandos - no idea what damage occurred there.  Morleys - window damage and window display goods nicked, or did anyone get inside?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Winot said:


> Don't worry: Federation Coffee is untouched.



What about Starfucks?


----------



## bluestreak (Aug 8, 2011)

_Londoners, on the other hand, are feckless, workshy and socially deviant in nature, living off drug dealing, theft, robbery and the handling of stolen goods_

They've got our number.


----------



## colacubes (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I reckon M&S will open fairly quickly as it only got its windows smashed as it has shutters behind the windows. Would imagine not much damage that can't be replaced in McShitey's and Kenfucky. Shoe shops obviously fucked. Curry's will need to order a bit more stock and besides broken windows/damaged stands, not sure if it sustained any more damage. Nandos - no idea what damage occurred there. Morleys - window damage and window display goods nicked, or did anyone get inside?



I think bar Currys and Footlocker most shops just have cosmetic damage.  I heard H&M got looted too so they may need a bit longer.  As far as I know and could see from a distance Morleys just looks liks smashed windows rather than anyone getting in.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That wasn't food shopping though. Even looters need to eat
> 
> Report live on Sky now



Didn't they all loot Nandos and KFC? They are probably having a BBQ as we speak, while the kids play their new x-box on a widescreen.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

nipsla said:


> I think bar Currys and Footlocker most shops just have cosmetic damage. I heard H&M got looted too so they may need a bit longer. As far as I know and could see from a distance Morleys just looks liks smashed windows rather than anyone getting in.



So just new windows, tidying up and ordering a bit of stock then I reckon.

Good, and I really hope employers are not going to stop paying their employees for not being able to work


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Didn't they all loot Nandos and KFC? They are probably having a BBQ as we speak, while the kids play their new x-box on a widescreen.



Probably eaten that all by now.  Looting's energetic work


----------



## colacubes (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So just new windows, tidying up and ordering a bit of stock then I reckon.
> 
> Good, and I really hope employers are not going to stop paying their employees for not being able to work



I reckon that they should mostly be open tomorrow from what I can see, although I guess that depends on how long he forensic work takes.

Footlocker however is pretty fucked and I can't see reopening for a while.  There are flats above there too apparently and they are quite badly damaged by all accounts


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

nipsla said:


> I reckon that they should mostly be open tomorrow from what I can see, although I guess that depends on how long he forensic work takes.
> 
> Footlocker however is pretty fucked and I can't see reopening for a while. There are flats above there too apparently and they are quite badly damaged by all accounts



Well, like has been said, practically every shop (not to mention the High Road itself) has CCTV so hopefully that'll speed things up

I'm sorry for whoever lived above Footlocker though  

Obviously doesn't occur to these people that people could be living above shops, or if does, they don't give a toss


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well, like has been said, practically every shop (not to mention the High Road itself) has CCTV so hopefully that'll speed things up


has no bearing. footage will likely be taken to the viido bit at lambeth.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> has no bearing. footage will likely be taken to the viido bit at lambeth.



What do you mean?


----------



## Pie 1 (Aug 8, 2011)

bluestreak said:


> _Londoners, on the other hand, are feckless, workshy and socially deviant in nature, living off drug dealing, theft, robbery and the handling of stolen goods_
> 
> They've got our number.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

bluestreak said:


> _Londoners, on the other hand, are feckless, workshy and socially deviant in nature, living off drug dealing, theft, robbery and the handling of stolen goods_
> 
> They've got our number.



I already quoted that bit!


----------



## Pie 1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I already quoted that bit!



Pah,- I'm rusty , give us a break! - I come back after a year away & find the boards are all poncy powder blue. Thought I was on bloody Mumsnet for a second.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

I've just heard some pretty awful tales of what happened outside the Barrier Block last night, with some poor 18 year old kid getting chased and beaten by a gang of youths and then getting stabbed in the eye. One of the residents took him into the block and probably saved his life.

The ambulance didn't turn up in over an hour so another resident drove the kid to hospital. The police apparently refused to come into the block, such is its notoriety.

Another poor sod was beaten to a pulp outside the block when he objected to a gang of kids making adverse comments about his girlfriend, while residents reported kids trashing cars and vandalising shops. A huge crowd gathered outside the block and despite residents calling the police multiple times, none turned up in four hours.

There was also reports of youths throwing rocks at cops and forcing a retreat down the street. The William Hill betting shop was smashed up too.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Pie 1 said:


> Pah,- I'm rusty , give us a break! - I come back after a year away & find the boards are all poncy powder blue. Thought I was on bloody Mumsnet for a second.





Well besides the colour, do you like the new boards?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> I've just heard some pretty awful tales of what happened outside the Barrier Block last night, with some poor 18 year old kid getting chased and beaten by a gang of youths and then getting stabbed in the eye. One of the residents took him into the block and probably saved his life.
> 
> The ambulance didn't turn up in over an hour so another resident drove the kid to hospital. The police apparently refused to come into the block, such is its notoriety.
> 
> ...



That's bad news.  Hope those injured make a full recovery.  That's shocking that the police refused to come into your block.  That's like police behaviour from the 80s.  Didn't realise they were still at it


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What do you mean?


two different sorts of police work, one relying on looking at the scene on the scene, one relying at looking at cctv of the scene.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's bad news. Hope those injured make a full recovery. That's shocking that the police refused to come into your block. That's like police behaviour from the 80s. Didn't realise they were still at it


was very much on the cards given their inability to turn up to reports of burglaries, muggings etc when there isn't a riot going on.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> I've just heard some pretty awful tales of what happened outside the Barrier Block last night, with some poor 18 year old kid getting chased and beaten by a gang of youths and then getting stabbed in the eye. One of the residents took him into the block and probably saved his life.
> 
> The ambulance didn't turn up in over an hour so another resident drove the kid to hospital. The police apparently refused to come into the block, such is its notoriety.
> 
> ...


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

Horrid stuff Ed. Suspect there is more of this news to filter through yet.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> was very much on the cards given their inability to turn up to reports of burglaries, muggings etc when there isn't a riot going on.


 
Well yes, but I suppose I thought the advent of black cabs re-entering Brixton, maybe estates were considered safe to enter now.

Are there still estates where milkmen/postmen won't deliver to (although I realise most Londoners probably buy their milk at a shop nowadays)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Lee Jasper on Sky news now


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

When was this supposed to be happening, editor? Pip went home that way and some drunk guy tried to chat her up and youth from the estate told him to back off. When I went out to see what might be happening, nothing was happening.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well yes, but I suppose I thought the advent of black cabs re-entering Brixton, maybe estates were considered safe to enter now.
> 
> Are there still estates where milkmen/postmen won't deliver to (although I realise most Londoners probably buy their milk at a shop nowadays)


i'm not sure the police take their lead from taxi drivers


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not sure the police take their lead from taxi drivers



Yes I know that!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Look at all these people behind Lee Jasper desperate to get their faces on tv


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yes I know that!


yes cos i just said it


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> yes cos i just said it





NO


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> When was this supposed to be happening, editor?


It definitely happened - I spoke to the woman and another resident who administered first aid to the guy who'd been stabbed. Several other residents have confirmed that it was very, very ugly outside the block last night - and these are people who've lived in Brixton for decades.

Not sure about times...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> It definitely happened - I spoke to the woman and another resident who administered first aid to the guy who'd been stabbed. Several other residents have confirmed that it was very, very ugly outside the block last night - and these are people who've lived in Brixton for decades.
> 
> Not sure about times...



Wouldn't surprise me at all.  If looters are mugging other looters, certainly wouldn't put it past them to attack other people for no reason at all


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

kickin off again downstairs. coppers everywhere. more windows smashed by the looks.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> kickin off again downstairs. coppers everywhere. more windows smashed by the looks.


There were hotheads shouting at the cops at the taped off end of Brixton Road (opp Ritzy) earlier. Rumours are rife that some folks are hell bent on more action tonight.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> kickin off again downstairs. coppers everywhere. more windows smashed by the looks.



Where? 

Surprised that this is happening on a sunny Monday afternoon despite last nights problems.


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

h&m seems to have been hit again. more glass n shit. god knows how they got thru the cordon in the daylight. heard some bangs a few mins ago but didnt look.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

I'd imagine they're replacing the old glass by knocking what's left out of the frames ...


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Badgers said:


> Where?
> 
> Surprised that this is happening on a sunny Monday afternoon despite last nights problems.


There were more than a few highly agitated folks gathered by the cordon half an hour ago.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> I'd imagine they're replacing the old glass by knocking what's left out of the frames ...



Maybe it's glaziers?


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

nah... i look down on that area... there's new brick shaped holes in the windows. its new damage from what was there his morning. the cops have left all the new debris there presumably as evidence.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> There were more than a few highly agitated folks gathered by the cordon half an hour ago.



Probably pissed off with not being able to get to the tube


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 8, 2011)

Let's hope anger is directed at solely at the OB tonight.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> nah... i look down on that area...* there's new brick shaped holes* in the windows. its new damage from what was there his morning. the cops have left all the new debris there presumably as evidence.





Probably looted the wrong sizes last night 

Where are all the police?


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> Let's hope anger is directed at solely at the OB tonight.



... or even better, there is no anger, violence, destruction of property etc etc.  Surely that has to be the better solution?


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

cordon's coming down


----------



## TitanSound (Aug 8, 2011)

A friend has a mate in Stratford who has just been told by the local police to close up his shop as they have intelligence that it will be "hit next".


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

* cordon's partially coming down. looks like they're keeping most of it up for now


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> cordon's coming down



Brixton's opening up again?  For pedestrians?  For traffic?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Brixton's opening up again? For pedestrians? For traffic?


for business


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

So there are new brick-shaped holes, the cordon's coming down and the cordon is going up - all in three minutes. At least there's plenty to keep the hundreds of film crews occupied...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2011)

TitanSound said:


> A friend has a mate in Stratford who has just been told by the local police to close up his shop as they have intelligence that it will be "hit next".


his shop in particular  or the area in general?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> ... or even better, there is no anger, violence, destruction of property etc etc. Surely that has to be the better solution?



No, fatalism is what keeps cunts in power.


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> So there are new brick-shaped holes, the cordon's coming down and the cordon is going up - all in three minutes. At least there's plenty to keep the hundreds of film crews occupied...



nah i think the new damage was actually about 45 mins ago. i was busy talkin on the phone and to be honest loud bangs outside the window here are not unusual.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

The only thing that is inevitable in life is that we die eventually.  Everything else can be changed, even if it isn't very easy.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

TitanSound said:


> A friend has a mate in Stratford who has just been told by the local police to close up his shop as they have intelligence that it will be "hit next".


Twats on twitter most likely. Wouldn't call that 'intelligence'.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Right, so not sure what's open or not, and nevertheless, even if Brixton's open to pedestrians and traffic, the shops are probably all shut, so I'll not bother going down there.


----------



## TitanSound (Aug 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> his shop in particular or the area in general?



The area in general. They are going from shop to shop apparently.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

Been a fair number of sirens going past our place in the last half hour. Generally been quiet out since we got up.


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Right, so not sure what's open or not, and nevertheless, even if Brixton's open to pedestrians and traffic, the shops are probably all shut, so I'll not bother going down there.



Yeh.. the street's still totally closed to pedestrians and traffic. they were just moving their ribbons a bit i think. im gonna stop curtain-twitching now


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Photos of the aftermath:











http://www.urban75.org/blog/brixton-remains-closed-after-overnight-riots-and-looting-photos/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> Yeh.. the street's still totally closed to pedestrians and traffic. they were just moving their ribbons a bit i think. im gonna stop curtain-twitching now





Mrs Magpie said:


> Twats on twitter most likely. Wouldn't call that 'intelligence'.



Curtain twitch all you like.  People need to know these things without having to keep looking up London Transport links which might be out of date!

I'm going out now anyway.  Happy twitching


----------



## Winot (Aug 8, 2011)

Does anyone know if the rec is open?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Would love to have been a fly on the wall listening to that conversation.


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

the cordon runs down to stockwell rd.. you might be able to pop thru past the canterbury tho?


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

There's been an awful amount of sirens in the past five minutes: police, fire and ambulance.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Would love to have been a fly on the wall listening to that conversation.


There was a lot of shouting with the arguments running along the lines of "You've fucked up Brixton with all your pointless thieving," "No, it's all about police oppression..." etc etc.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> There's been an awful amount of sirens in the past five minutes: police, fire and ambulance.



Yeah, most I have heard since 6am this morning. Seem to just be passing us heading central way.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Curtain twitch all you like. People need to know these things without having to keep looking up London Transport links which might be out of date!
> 
> I'm going out now anyway. Happy twitching


The TfL website has been reporting 'no problems on the Victoria Line' all day. Except Brixton tube has been shut all day.


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> the cordon runs down to stockwell rd.. you might be able to pop thru past the canterbury tho?



Yup, that way was open this morning... Gresham Road / Popes Road...


----------



## bluestreak (Aug 8, 2011)

love the first picture.  smashed in betting shops are a beautiful sight.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

Because of the cordon  - at footlocker at one end and KFC at the other -  there is no access to the tube.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Twats on twitter most likely. Wouldn't call that 'intelligence'.



Boots and Sainsburys in Stamford Hill have closed due to possibility of rioting today. Teeps just posted the closure signs on Facebook.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Because of the cordon - at footlocker at one end and KFC at the other - there is no access to the tube.


Those who have Oyster can access Brixton BR station- 7  mins to Victoria then change to another line.  What's wrong with that - bloody site quicker than taking a bus via Clapham Common!


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

CH1 said:


> Those who have Oyster can access Brixton BR station- 7 mins to Victoria then change to another line. What's wrong with that - bloody site quicker than taking a bus via Clapham Common!


That's how we got back into Brixton earlier. Much better than faffing around with buses from Stockwell.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 8, 2011)

Oh crap - so Brixton's going to be a travel nightmare this rush hour?


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

yeh. head for stockwell and walk. lots more cops just arriving so i cant see this being sorted soon.


----------



## cybertect (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> That's how we got back into Brixton earlier. Much better than faffing around with buses from Stockwell.



Probably a bit safer too with CO19 knocking around town...


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 8, 2011)

Fuckfuckfuck

BRIXTON UNDERGROUND STATION: Closed at police request. Reported: 08/08/11 05:01 Last Updated: 08/08/11 14:21
VICTORIA LINE: Suspended between Stockwell and Brixton at police request. Reported: 08/08/11 14:05 Last Updated: 08/08/11 14:22


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Oh crap - so Brixton's going to be a travel nightmare this rush hour?



Probably, thanks to the looters.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

CH1 said:


> Those who have Oyster can access Brixton BR station- 7 mins to Victoria then change to another line. What's wrong with that - bloody site quicker than taking a bus via Clapham Common!



I expect that's very useful if Victoria is any use to you.  Less useful if Victoria is not any use to you.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

ajdown said:


> meh fucking blah fucking more meh


George from George and Mildred:


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Aug 8, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Fuckfuckfuck
> 
> BRIXTON UNDERGROUND STATION: Closed at police request. Reported: 08/08/11 05:01 Last Updated: 08/08/11 14:21
> VICTORIA LINE: Suspended between Stockwell and Brixton at police request. Reported: 08/08/11 14:05 Last Updated: 08/08/11 14:22



If you're Effra Road / Brixton Hill side, then train from Victoria to Herne Hill & walk along Water Lane is a decent option.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Clapham North is probably better for mine, which is where she was heading.  mañana.

mañana mañana


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 8, 2011)

wow.  brixton road is a hell of a scene  with  everything from the kfc to bernardos taped off

however it  does mean the market is a lot more livly.  it's quite nice in a way  (though i couldn't get to barclays or m&s)


----------



## Kanda (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Clapham North is probably better for mine, which is where she was heading.  mañana.
> 
> mañana mañana



Victoria Line > Stockwell, Northern Line > Clapham Common. 137 or 417 to top of Brixton Hill then womble down NPR.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Victoria Line > Stockwell, Northern Line > Clapham Common. 137 or 417 to top of Brixton Hill then womble down NPR.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


>



What??


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

from the gruniad



> Brixton road is still closed to both traffic and pedestrians following the unrest last night. Officers only put up the cordons across the road at lunchtime and aimed to reopen it to traffic after a couple of hours. But it looks as this part of Brixton will remain blocked well into the evening at the moment. Brixton tube station is also still closed, although the overland station is open.
> 
> Most of the worst affected shops have now been boarded up but there are still clothes hangers strewn across the pavement. Whatever happens next, the clean up here will last for days.​


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Kanda said:


> What??



So I should get the northern line from Old street to Euston, then the victoria line from Euston to stockwell, then the northern line to Clapham?

I wasn't actually asking anyone for advice anyway...


----------



## Kanda (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> So I should get the northern line from Old street to Euston, then the victoria line from Euston to stockwell, then the northern line to Clapham?
> 
> I wasn't actually asking anyone for advice anyway...



I dunno where your journey starts from do i... pfft... still... I wouldn't go to Clapham North.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Kanda said:


> I dunno where your journey starts from do i... pfft...



All I said was that the overground to Victoria was only any good to you if Victoria was any good to you.



quimcunx said:


> I expect that's very useful if Victoria is any use to you. Less useful if Victoria is not any use to you.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> All I said was that the overground to Victoria was only any good to you if Victoria was any good to you.



It's not though really, due to Brixton Road being closed and no busses to take you up the hill


----------



## magneze (Aug 8, 2011)

Ok, people now getting tooled up with chair legs and stuff. Live on TV. W.T.F.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

magneze said:


> Ok, people now getting tooled up with chair legs and stuff. Live on TV. W.T.F.



Really? What period chair?


----------



## magneze (Aug 8, 2011)

Badgers said:


> Really? What period chair?


Early 21st century I'd estimate. One looked like Ikea vintage. The other could have been from John Lewis. Or Argos.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Fucking hell. All I'm hearing is sirens going past my house.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Kanda said:


> It's not though really, due to Brixton Road being closed and no busses to take you up the hill



When is the ignore poster function coming into effect?


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

all calm at kfc corner! thankfully


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Crispy should never have been allowed to leave crispycam.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie will be relieved to hear that Streatham Argos wasn't looted, but at least half a dozen other shops were. Including an attempt to ram raid the 3 Mobile shop. I'll post pics later.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> Fucking hell. All I'm hearing is sirens going past my house.



Been another load going past ours. BBC covering Hackney now


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

No idea who this guy is but an account of last night with pics.

http://nottheviewsofmyemployer.wordpress.com/


----------



## magneze (Aug 8, 2011)

magneze said:


> Ok, people now getting tooled up with chair legs and stuff. Live on TV. W.T.F.


I think I posted this on the wrong thread. Meant to put it on the Tottenham one.


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

> 5.04pm: Our correspondent Vikram Dodd reports that Scotland Yard has introduced special powers in four areas, allowing officers to stop and search suspects without reasonable suspicion. The powers are contained in section 60 of the Public Order Act. The areas are Lambeth, Haringey, Enfield and Waltham Forest. The section 60 powers were invoked around midnight on Sunday following a second night of serious disorder to hit London.



good work dicks!!!


----------



## kittyP (Aug 8, 2011)

What are they expecting to find on potential rioters?
A dodgy intention 

That will only make things worse


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

forensic guys just arrived and crawling thru h&m in white suits. how long did that take?!


----------



## HandinHand (Aug 8, 2011)

magneze said:


> Ok, people now getting tooled up with chair legs and stuff. Live on TV. W.T.F.


Table legs and police with guns is a bad mix.


----------



## discplayer (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> Photos of the aftermath:
> http://www.urban75.org/blog/brixton-remains-closed-after-overnight-riots-and-looting-photos/



Great pictures.
Did anyone spot (in the women arguing pic) that it appears to be a French news camera? No wonder the Ritzy Cafe's full.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm getting a headache from all these police sirens echoing down Coldharbour Lane. WTF is going on?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 8, 2011)

so is brixton road open then, or is it still closed?


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

closed dude, from stockwell rd up to coldharbour


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

The vibe around Brixton at the moment doesn't feel good to me


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Still closed according to my lodger who has just returned after collecting his bag from work (where he was locked in with other staff and some customers on police orders until 4am).


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> I'm getting a headache from all these police sirens echoing down Coldharbour Lane. WTF is going on?



Quieter at the Hoot end of town at the moment, not much traffic noise at all. Heading out shortly for supplies but not heading into town. No point in adding to the congestion I guess.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> There was a lot of shouting with the arguments running along the lines of "You've fucked up Brixton with all your pointless thieving," "No, it's all about police oppression..." etc etc.



That is exactly what I thought it would be about!



editor said:


> The TfL website has been reporting 'no problems on the Victoria Line' all day.* Except Brixton tube has been shut all day.*



Quite, which is why gabi needs to continue curtain twitching!

Where are buses being diverted.  I can see them going up and down the Hill but don't know where they're being diverted if they're not passing through Brixton proper


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

cordon removed!


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

traffic and pedestrians flowing.. yayyyy!!!


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That is exactly what I thought it would be about!
> 
> Quite, which is why gabi needs to continue curtain twitching!
> 
> Where are buses being diverted. I can see them going up and down the Hill but don't know where they're being diverted if they're not passing through Brixton proper



Going down Acre Lane to Clapham and then up to Stockwell AFAIK.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Saw the guy from the corner shop on Brixton Hill (Kwik Stop/Shop/can't remember the name) on the news who had his shop robbed last night.

Did any other shops on Brixton Hill get done?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> traffic and pedestrians flowing.. yayyyy!!!



Excellent, but tube still shut?


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

jesus, about a million people have just surged in to get shots of h&m on their mobiles/cameras. im off to ze pub...


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Excellent, but tube still shut?



can't see. im opp kfc. check tfl!!


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 8, 2011)

yeah the traffic is really quiet up brixton road - it's almost eerie. will i be able to get to the albert for a beer though?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> can't see. im opp kfc. check tfl!!



Did you see my earlier post re: TFL and Editor's subsequent post?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> yeah the traffic is really quiet up brixton road - it's almost eerie. will i be able to get to the albert for a beer though?



You looking to be locked in?


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Did you see my earlier post re: TFL and Editor's subsequent post?



I think I answered that question.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> yeah the traffic is really quiet up brixton road - it's almost eerie. will i be able to get to the albert for a beer though?


Well, I can confirm that the Albert is open for business tonight.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, I can confirm that the Albert is open for business tonight.



Are you reporting from on-site?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

No but I know people who are working there starting their shift in a few minutes and it will be open till midnight.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I think I answered that question.



Didn't see your post about the buses if that's the one you're talking about?

I've been out for a couple of hours so may have missed a couple of posts


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Saw the guy from the corner shop on Brixton Hill (Kwik Stop/Shop/can't remember the name) on the news who had his shop robbed last night.
> 
> Did any other shops on Brixton Hill get done?



I saw at least one other shop had windows put in.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> You looking to be locked in?


well that would be terribly inconvenient.....


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Staff and some customers were locked in the Albert till 4am because the police ordered it.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Three police vans hurtling off east down Coldharbour Lane. Maybe Camberwell is trying to get in on the act now?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Belushi said:


> I saw at least one other shop had windows put in.



Which one?

Bet the new Sainsbury's are glad they hadn't opened yet


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> Three police vans hurtling off east down Coldharbour Lane. Maybe Camberwell is trying to get in on the act now?



What's the quickest way to Lewisham?


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 8, 2011)

Loads of sirens on the hill now


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

...but to be honest, when aren't there loads of sirens?


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Didn't see your post about the buses if that's the one you're talking about?
> 
> I've been out for a couple of hours so may have missed a couple of posts



Going down Acre Lane to Clapham and then up to Stockwell AFAIK.The other way I'm not entirely sure, tho I think TfL has the diversions up.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 8, 2011)

That is true Mrs M, more sirens than usual for 6pm on a Monday


----------



## Fingers (Aug 8, 2011)

Several riot vans has sped in the direction of Brixton in the last ten minutes


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ...but to be honest, when aren't there loads of sirens?



Exactly, no more so than usual


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ...but to be honest, when aren't there loads of sirens?


This is the most I've heard in a very long time - and we're both very used to the 'Brixton soundtrack' where we live.


----------



## roctrevezel (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ...but to be honest, when aren't there loads of sirens?



It is called "silent approach."


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> This is the most I've heard in a very long time - and we're both very used to the 'Brixton soundtrack' where we live.



Yeah, but you probably get more down there than up here anyway.  This time of the evening, there's often a joke between some of my friends at the amount of sirens around 5.00-6.00pm, normally along the lines of "end of shift" or "tea break"


----------



## Glennard (Aug 8, 2011)

Fingers said:


> Several riot vans has sped in the direction of Brixton in the last ten minutes


Think its because someone's just fallen off a stool in the Albert


----------



## metal13 (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Going down Acre Lane to Clapham and then up to Stockwell AFAIK.The other way I'm not entirely sure, tho I think TfL has the diversions up.


Traffic is maaasive through clapham north. It's barely moving.

Also, the Lidl on acre lane has closed early. Staff are in there watching, and waiting for something. All the independent stores are still open and doing fine.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Aug 8, 2011)

This is one of saddest days in Brixton for me, just pure, mindless violence


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

metal13 said:


> Traffic is maaasive through clapham north. It's barely moving.
> 
> Also, the Lidl on acre lane has closed early. Staff are in there watching, and waiting for something. All the independent stores are still open and doing fine.



Someone on Twatter said the Sainsbury's up Brixton Hill had just pulled their shutters down


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

In Brixton this morning it was the market and small independent shops that were open and the chains (I don't mean the chains behind police tapes) were shut.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

DJWrongspeed said:


> This is one of saddest days in Brixton for me, just pure, mindless violence



Not sad just for Brixton, but sad for London.

I really wish Sky would keep showing the interview with the woman in Tottenham who lost everything when her building was set on fire. Show that over and over again, and maybe it'll get through to some of these little shits that they're not just looting, they're destroying homes and businesses


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> In Brixton this morning it was the market and small independent shops that were open and the chains (I don't mean the chains behind police tapes) were shut.



Can't afford to lose the business unlike a Sainsbury's, McShitey's etc.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

DJWrongspeed said:


> This is one of saddest days in Brixton for me, just pure, mindless violence


Most of my saddest days in Brixton have been at times like these  I wish people wouldn't keep talking it up. The baseless rumours on social networks about Brixton having kicked off have been going since Thursday night  and surprise surprise, eventually it happened, probably caused by people who thought it was already happening.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2011)

DJWrongspeed said:


> This is one of saddest days in Brixton for me, just pure, mindless violence


mindless violence or organised criminality?


----------



## Geri (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I really wish Sky would keep showing the interview with the woman in Tottenham who lost everything when her building was set on fire. Show that over and over again, and maybe it'll get through to some of these little shits that they're not just looting, they're destroying homes and businesses



Was that the black woman with with very short hair or the white woman with glasses? Both very moving, I thought.


----------



## Fingers (Aug 8, 2011)

Another four riot vans have headed Brixton way (from tulse hill)


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not sad just for Brixton, but sad for London.
> 
> I really wish Sky would keep showing the interview with the woman in Tottenham who lost everything when her building was set on fire. Show that over and over again, and maybe it'll get through to some of these little shits that they're not just looting, they're destroying homes and businesses


the girl with the glasses - yeah, that was on the bbc as well. really moving.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Geri said:


> Was that the black woman with with very short hair or the white woman with glasses? Both very moving, I thought.



The black woman with short hair.  Only escaped with the clothes she had on her    Not seen the other one, but probably equally as heartbreaking


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2011)

Brixton this afternoon.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> The black woman with short hair. Only escaped with the clothes she had on her  Not seen the other one, but probably equally as heartbreaking


ah - i jumped to conclusions.

the one i saw she was saying how she was terrified, trying to escape her burning home with her life - and when she got onto the street she crossed paths with this blonde lad hefting a rug from carpetright over his shoulder and laughing.


----------



## Geri (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> The black woman with short hair. Only escaped with the clothes she had on her  Not seen the other one, but probably equally as heartbreaking



Yes, that was sad. I just hope things work out for everyone affected. Burning someone's home down is beyond the pale.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Brixton this afternoon.


 
As long as Kenfucky is shut, the buses may smell a bit nicer


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> ah - i jumped to conclusions.
> 
> the one i saw she was saying how she was terrified, trying to escape her burning home with her life - and when she got onto the street she crossed paths with this blonde lad hefting a rug from carpetright over his shoulder and laughing.





Geri said:


> Yes, that was sad. I just hope things work out for everyone affected. Burning someone's home down is beyond the pale.



If they find the little shits that did it, I'd drag them back to the property to show them their handywork, and once it's renovated, I'd set them to work decorating it.  Bit of community service for them as I doubt hardly any of them will end up with more than a slap on the wrist


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> If they find the little shits that did it, I'd drag them back to the property to show them their handywork, and once it's renovated, I'd set them to work decorating it. Bit of community service for them as I doubt hardly any of them will end up with more than a slap on the wrist


Just said on the news minnie - it's got to be demolished. the whole building. 20 families.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe it's glaziers?


You got to watch them fuckers!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> Just said on the news minnie - it's got to be demolished. the whole building. 20 families.



Looked pretty gutted, more like a remnant fom The Blitz.  Was a lovely building as well.  Poor people.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Looked pretty gutted, more like a remnant fom The Blitz. Was a lovely building as well. Poor people.



eta:  I realise it looked structurally unsound, but meant that wherever the families get moved to, they should make the looters/rioters decorate the places, while the residents supervise them and they can have a nice little chit chat about how it's affected them.

I'm sounding right Daily Mail aren't I


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> You got to watch them fuckers!



Why?


----------



## yardbird (Aug 8, 2011)

Lewisham police station under attack, they've pulled the shutters down.
Assault on Precinct 13


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

yardbird said:


> Lewisham police station under attack, they've pulled the shutters down.
> Assault on Precinct 13


Where did you get that?


----------



## Secateur (Aug 8, 2011)

cars on fire in lewisham and peckham


----------



## Richard2011 (Aug 8, 2011)

oh dear this is getting beyond a joke now!...all i can hear is more and more sirens in brixton


----------



## Geri (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> eta: I realise it looked structurally unsound, but meant that wherever the families get moved to, they should make the looters/rioters decorate the places, while the residents supervise them and they can have a nice little chit chat about how it's affected them.
> 
> I'm sounding right Daily Mail aren't I



No, you are completely right. They should be charged with attempted murder. The blonde woman said if she had been there 10 minutes longer, she would be dead.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2011)

And a couple from Streatham this afternoon.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2011)

that's not attempted murder, it's arson - still a pretty serious charge!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Someone on Twitter saying their friend has just left her home in Brixton as a shop next door to her has been set alight.  Any truth in this?


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 8, 2011)

friend of ours just saw phones 4u being trashed in walworth road and a bystander being twatted,


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Geri said:


> No, you are completely right. They should be charged with attempted murder. The blonde woman said if she had been there 10 minutes longer, she would be dead.



Can't remember what time that fire happened, but what if there had been a deaf person there or faulty smoke detectors etc. whilst they were sleeping.  People just don't think of the consequences when they start all this shit


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

DJWrongspeed said:


> This is one of saddest days in Brixton for me, just pure, mindless violence



innit. yesterday was just lovely... i had a lovely brix splash. seeing the smashed windows up n down the road today tho... shitbags. not to mention the hordes of grief tourists having their piccies taken in front of smashed shopfronts.


----------



## Secateur (Aug 8, 2011)

http://twitpic.com/search#q=#LondonRiots&type=mixed&page=1

using this to track latest pics..it has the bus on fire in Peckham


----------



## yardbird (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> Where did you get that?


BBC radio and tv - repeated several times


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2011)

Moe of Streatham this afternoon.


----------



## felixgolightly (Aug 8, 2011)

Kilburn High Street being closed as I type this, all shops closing - signs saying it's under 'police advice'.  Security guard from Tesco says they're expecting it to kick off 'any minute'.  Eek.


----------



## Geri (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Can't remember what time that fire happened, but what if there had been a deaf person there or faulty smoke detectors etc. whilst they were sleeping. People just don't think of the consequences when they start all this shit



It must have been quite late, because one bloke said his wife had gone to bed because they thought the trouble was easing off. One of his neighbours had to flee in just her nightie.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Here's the bus some dickhead burnt in Peckham. Yeah, nice one. Twat.





http://twitpic.com/631qc2


----------



## dozi (Aug 8, 2011)

As the OP of this thread I am sad to say, I just knew in my bones that something was about to happen last night as I drove from home in South Norwood to pick up my boy, I understand that some of you who live in Brixton may feel that everyone is almost willing more disasters to unfold, but I remember the first riots from all those years ago, and the pain and suffering it caused to the local people, I wouldn't wish all this on my worst enemy, maybe there will be a price to pay now, and it will be the youth who pay it I think.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Geri said:


> It must have been quite late, because one bloke said his wife had gone to bed because they thought the trouble was easing off. One of his neighbours had to flee in just her nightie.



Very sad.

Shop on fire in Lewisham now.  Hope there's nobody inside in the flats above


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

dozi said:


> As the OP of this thread I am sad to say, I just knew in my bones that something was about to happen last night as I drove from home in South Norwood to pick up my boy, I understand that some of you who live in Brixton may feel that everyone is almost willing more disasters to unfold, but I remember the first riots from all those years ago, and the pain and suffering it caused to the local people, I wouldn't wish all this on my worst enemy, maybe there will be a price to pay now, and it will be the youth who pay it I think.



i totally agree. altho the first riots were before my time. it feels like shit out there. like a fragile peace has been busted. and that's shit...


----------



## colacubes (Aug 8, 2011)

Keep your eyes and ears open Brixton people. There's some serious opportunist cunts out there. Our upstairs neighbour just had a burglar try and get into her window and he'd crowbarred our security gate open. Fortunately she spotted him but a bit worrying. Right in the centre of fucking Brixton. We've just about managed to fix the security gate but now all rather worried understandably.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm staying in tonight.


----------



## Secateur (Aug 8, 2011)

any more on that fella that got stabbed in the eye? fucking disgrace 

the pics of GamesMaster today really upset me more than most..really liked the owner


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

nipsla said:


> Keep your eyes and ears open Brixton people. There's some serious opportunist cunts out there. Our upstairs neighbour just had a burglar try and get into her window and he'd crowbarred our security gate open. Fortunately she spotted him but a bit worrying. Right in the centre of fucking Brixton. We've just about managed to fix the security gate but now all rather worried understandably.



That type of thing isn't rare as the little shits know the police are occupied elsewhere


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> I'm staying in tonight.



Very sensible


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

someone standing up for your civil rights


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Someone on Twatter said the Sainsbury's up Brixton Hill had just pulled their shutters down


Yep.  Nisa to shut in an hour or two.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Secateur said:


> any more on that fella that got stabbed in the eye? fucking disgrace


The reason he got attacked is truly depressing. He used to live in the area but had moved out to Elephant and Castle (presumably because his Mum had moved, seeing as he was only 18).

He'd come back to Brixton to enjoy Splash, but was then attacked by people he once knew because he was now from the wrong 'hood.
He nearly died from his injuries. _For moving to a different address._


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Yep. Nisa to shut in an hour or two.



Good.  Hope the rest of them shut up as well, although I wonder if the one on corner of Blenheim Gardens will stay open?



editor said:


> The reason he got attacked is truly depressing. He used to live in the area but had moved out to Elephant and Castle (presumably because his Mum had moved, seeing as he was only 18).
> 
> He'd come back to Brixton to enjoy Splash, but was then attacked by people he once knew because he was now from the wrong 'hood.
> He nearly died from his injuries. _For moving to a different address._



That's disgusting.  Any news on how he is now?


----------



## superdodgy (Aug 8, 2011)

It is sad to see riots in various parts of London on the news in the Netherlands. Although it's been 7 years since I was there, I still recognize these Brixton streets! Take care everyone...


----------



## felixgolightly (Aug 8, 2011)

Just been on the hill.  Lots of shops shutting up now.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's disgusting. Any news on how he is now?


No, and I doubt if we'll find out either. It looks like he owes his life to some of the residents in my block who took a considerable risk taking him in.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

Something kicking off in central Birmingham too by the sound of it.


----------



## Secateur (Aug 8, 2011)

v





editor said:


> The reason he got attacked is truly depressing. He used to live in the area but had moved out to Elephant and Castle (presumably because his Mum had moved, seeing as he was only 18).
> 
> He'd come back to Brixton to enjoy Splash, but was then attacked by people he once knew because he was now from the wrong 'hood.
> He nearly died from his injuries. _For moving to a different address._



very sad, words fail me, logic fails me, I have nothing left to process things like that.


----------



## Fingers (Aug 8, 2011)

Just heard that maxi supermarket in Tulse Hill has been smashed up


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

The police should get some water-cannons. Ecologically sound, and not likely to hurt anyone too much, they'd send everyone home pretty quickly feeling pretty cold.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2011)

excellent tweet: @Kate_Butler thing is, oh morons of the internet, it is possible to believe something is wrong AND consider the wider context at the same time. really.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

Some shops on Brixton Water Lane and Tulse Hill said they closed up early last night. Seems calm around tonight, just a couple of smashed up cars parked up. Bit far out (hopefully) for too much bother.


----------



## Secateur (Aug 8, 2011)

http://twitpic.com/632j36


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

What we need now is a really big rain storm to thunder down on Brixton.


----------



## paolo (Aug 8, 2011)

Going to get cigs before the shops close up


----------



## bluestreak (Aug 8, 2011)

still quiet but tense in central brixton, according to my housemate whose just got in


----------



## Rushy (Aug 8, 2011)

Three fully manned riot vans parked outside my place close to bottom of Brixton Hill. They said no reports of anything in Brixton - purely precautionary.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> The police should get some water-cannons. Ecologically sound, and not likely to hurt anyone too much, they'd send everyone home pretty quickly feeling pretty cold.



No

Would be a spark to a flame


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> What we need now is a really big rain storm to thunder down on Brixton.


Like last night?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> No, and I doubt if we'll find out either. It looks like he owes his life to some of the residents in my block who took a considerable risk taking him in.



Good on your block and kindly neighbours

All quiet down there?


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

Badgers said:


> No
> 
> Would be a spark to a flame


The flame is already well-sparked.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> The flame is already well-sparked.



You don't say?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> The police should get some water-cannons. Ecologically sound, and not likely to hurt anyone too much.



[ed: embedded image removed - you can see it here:]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/Blinded_by_water_cannon.jpg


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

I don't know about the rest of you but the book 'The Lord of the flies' keeps on coming into my mind- rule by vile children.


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/Blinded_by_water_cannon.jpg


Point taken. It'll have to be tear gas.


----------



## Tankus (Aug 8, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> [ed: embedded image removed - you can see it here:]
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/Blinded_by_water_cannon.jpg


don't loot then !

also put out fires when the fire brigade cant go in due to stone throwing by fuckwits


----------



## Pip (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> The reason he got attacked is truly depressing. He used to live in the area but had moved out to Elephant and Castle (presumably because his Mum had moved, seeing as he was only 18).
> 
> He'd come back to Brixton to enjoy Splash, but was then attacked by people he once knew because he was now from the wrong 'hood.
> He nearly died from his injuries. _For moving to a different address._



Shit, didn't hear about that, is the kid alright? All I heard about is the two minor stabbings. I've never, ever, heard of someone getting grief for moving to a different address either, so don't get too depressed - if that is the case then it's definitely not common.

I've been in constant contact with the people round here, and was outside the barrier block last night, and my understanding of what went on is this.

Earlier in the day a load of people from my estate tried to go to the main bit of Splash (on CHL) but were stopped by the police because they thought they were going to clash with a group already on CHL. What with that and the party in the community centre on the corner, there were a load of people hanging about around there, unable to go anywhere, stewing a bit. When I was there some prick was preeing me but the situation was defused by one of the boys from Moorlands, who quoth "_you're not even from round here_*, she's from round here, fuck off" which just shows that there were outsiders who'd come for Splash (but most probably don't give a shit about Brixton tbh) around last night.
When everything was kicking off in the main bit of Brixton there were also people arriving in cars from fuck knows where to get in on the action, and on BB half jokingly (but also kind of not) arranging where to go to loot stuff.

When were you outside the barrier block ed? Didn't see you, were we there at different times?

*I moved away to a different area three years ago, just to concrete my don't get depressed point.


----------



## story (Aug 8, 2011)

Just heard from a pal: it's kicking off in Croydon now too.

ETA

Yup, just hitting the news feed now.


----------



## Secateur (Aug 8, 2011)

bbc news...Croydon is on fire all over the shop!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

story said:


> Just heard from a pal: it's kicking off in Croydon now too.
> 
> ETA
> 
> Yup, just hitting the news feed now.



There's a separate Croydon thread.  There's a few Croydon residents on U75


----------



## story (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> There's a separate Croydon thread. There's a few Croydon residents on U75


 
Beg 'pardon Minnie_the_Minx.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2011)

How are things down in Brixton?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

story said:


> Beg 'pardon Minnie_the_Minx.



Just letting you know as there's people that live there so you may get more on the ground information rather than second-hand tweeting bollox, although it's on BBC and Sky anyway


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

story said:


> Beg 'pardon Minnie_the_Minx.



There's also Birmingham, Hackney, Bethnal Green and various other threads.  U75 will be full of riot threads soon


----------



## Belushi (Aug 8, 2011)

We need a riot forum!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Belushi said:


> We need a riot forum!



I think so, although that might just make the Mods/Lazy tear their hair out after the big move 

Or is it easy to do?


----------



## Fingers (Aug 8, 2011)

Heard that Brazza's on Brixton Hill has had it's windows smashed


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 8, 2011)

ffs


----------



## Fingers (Aug 8, 2011)

and Hamiltons


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Fingers said:


> Heard that Brazza's on Brixton Hill has had it's windows smashed



on Brixton Hill


----------



## kittyP (Aug 8, 2011)

Fingers said:


> Heard that Brazza's on Brixton Hill has had it's windows smashed



Tulse Hill? Or do you mean somewhere different?
Thought the sirens got a bot louder for a bit


----------



## Fingers (Aug 8, 2011)

Sorry yes, Tulse Hill, the Palmerston in East Dulwich has also been attacked according to Twitter


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Pip said:


> When were you outside the barrier block ed? Didn't see you, were we there at different times?


Fortunately/unfortunately, I was in Wales when it all kicked off, but have spoken to neighbours when I got back this afternoon. Apparently, at one point the contents of recycling bins were all around the entrance to the block, sparking fears that they were going to set fire to it all.

(Note: I've edited the thread title for clarity)


----------



## Greebo (Aug 8, 2011)

They did - went past here about 5 minutes ago


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 8, 2011)

oh bugger - really Brazas window? Just sent gaijinboy down to get some grub from the chippy a few doors down - thought we were safe this far up. This whole thing is shit shit shit.


----------



## Secateur (Aug 8, 2011)

Brazas on Tulse Hill?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


----------



## Fingers (Aug 8, 2011)

Fire engine heading to Brixton according to my mate in Herne Hill. Kicking off on Clapham High Street


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 8, 2011)

Clapham junction really gone off


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 8, 2011)

How long ago was the Brazas thing?  I'm sure it's absolutely fine - it's just that gaijinboy should be back by now really.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 8, 2011)

FWIW I hope Gajinboy's okay, and everyone else in that area too.

Safe compared to what?  Schools are shut for the summer, there's not much to do, and groups of yoots have been bragging and egging each other on most of the day - only a matter of time IMHO


----------



## Badgers (Aug 8, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Clapham junction really gone off



Really? You up that way mate?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Just seen a fire engine heading down Brixton Hill.  Could be on way to anywhere though I suppose


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

It's all quiet on Coldharbour Lane right now.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 8, 2011)

Badgers said:


> Really? You up that way mate?


No, just following it on the news.


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 8, 2011)

He's back - fine, I was silly to worry.  He said it's really weird out there - but Brazas have their shutters down - and being Monday, they'll have been down all day I'd have thought - so I hope that rumour is wrong.


----------



## Fingers (Aug 8, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> He's back - fine, I was silly to worry. He said it's really weird out there - but Brazas have their shutters down - and being Monday, they'll have been down all day I'd have thought - so I hope that rumour is wrong.



lets hope that was just a rumour


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> It's all quiet on Coldharbour Lane right now.



Good, hope it stays that way


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

they shut on mondays?

 


gaijingirl said:


> He's back - fine, I was silly to worry. He said it's really weird out there - but Brazas have their shutters down - and being Monday, they'll have been down all day I'd have thought - so I hope that rumour is wrong.


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

yay! brixton seems to be a lil oasis right now. cop cars and fire engines headin off in all directions but here... nada!

so sad to see this happenin to my lovely london tho


----------



## innit (Aug 8, 2011)

2 police vans and a small crowd outside kwikstop on trent road. Never thought i'd see kwikstop closed.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

innit said:


> 2 police vans and a small crowd outside kwikstop on trent road. Never thought i'd see kwikstop closed.



He got done last night didn't he?


----------



## silvershoes (Aug 8, 2011)

Hamiltons were invaded by 15 youths. That is horrible horrible news.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

leanderman said:


> It will slow the pace of gentrification for a bit that's for sure.



I'm not so sure. It's unfortunately the case that the previous riots had waves of gentrification following them about two years or so after - not unrelated to the extra money the govt pumped into the area (and, of course, the professionalisation of "regeneration" which led to the need for an influx of "project leaders" and the like).


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> they shut on mondays?



Yes.  Unless in the last few weeks they've started opening on Mondays.. yes...


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 8, 2011)

Fingers said:


> lets hope that was just a rumour



They don't mention it on their Facebook page so yes, I hope that it is just a rumour.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

silvershoes said:


> Hamiltons were invaded by 15 youths. That is horrible horrible news.


Where is Hamiltons and what kind of business is it?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 8, 2011)

jesus i'm starting to get angry now.

getting annoyed  at the news  and   some of  the people online.   no one  is  trying to understand why people are out there on the streets


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Aug 8, 2011)

Run around to check. Brazas is fine, rest easy


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> jesus i'm starting to get angry now.
> 
> getting annoyed at the news and some of the people online. no one is trying to understand why people are out there on the streets



It's quite simple.  If you want to be part of the trouble, you go out on the streets.  If you want to avoid the trouble and do your best to stay safe, then you go home, lock the doors and stay there.

You will never be able to justify mindless violence, looting, burning buildings etc as the solution to any problem - they're just shitting their own beds and destroying their own communities.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Aug 8, 2011)

silvershoes said:


> Hamiltons were invaded by 15 youths. That is horrible horrible news.


 Hope they are OK in there - how long ago was this?



editor said:


> Where is Hamiltons and what kind of business is it?


It's a corner shop / greengrocers on Railton opposite Mayall Road (Herne Hill end).


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> Where is Hamiltons and what kind of business is it?


SH car dealer at top of Tulse hill ?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 8, 2011)

oh fuck off

people  arn't just out there for the lulz.

people are angry.     and untill we start asking  why  and start trying to fix things   nothing is going to change


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Ms Ordinary said:


> It's a corner shop / greengrocers on Railton opposite Mayall Road.


Oh fuck - the old pub? What the fuck are they attacking that for?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 8, 2011)

silvershoes said:


> Hamiltons were invaded by 15 youths. That is horrible horrible news.


They're really nice in that shop. ffs


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 8, 2011)

Raiding a small local greengrocer like that - fuck 'em.


----------



## Winot (Aug 8, 2011)

Gixxer1000 said:


> Run around to check. Brazas is fine, rest easy



Unfortunately the Brixton Buzz twitter feed is reporting that Brazza's [sic] windows are broken.  How bad info gets tweeted in microcosm.


----------



## uk benzo (Aug 8, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> oh fuck off
> 
> people arn't just out there for the lulz.
> 
> people are angry. and untill we start asking why and start trying to fix things nothing is going to change


 
Are they angry at the price of trainers and flat screen TVs? Is that why they smash up stores and loot their goods?

These kids have fucked Brixton and other areas with their mindless violence.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

Winot said:


> Unfortunately the Brixton Buzz twitter feed is reporting that Brazza's [sic] windows are broken. How bad info gets tweeted in microcosm.


Luckily, the tweet linked to this thread so people can keep up with the story and read updates, and correct any mistakes. Another advantage of a bulletin board!

Oh, and I did use the word "rumoured."


----------



## innit (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> He got done last night didn't he?



Shit, really? That's out of order - esp as it's 24 hrs so would have been robbery of the guys who were working, not just looting.


----------



## silvershoes (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> Oh fuck - the old pub? What the fuck are they attacking that for?


----------



## qosno1 (Aug 8, 2011)

Is it time to mob up into a civilian vigilante squad to protect the ritzy, the library and other important sites?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 8, 2011)

uk benzo said:


> Are they angry at the price of trainers and flat screen TVs? Is that why they smash up stores and loot their goods?
> 
> These kids have fucked Brixton and other areas with their mindless violence.



is looting a regular occurance?   does in happen all the time?

or perhaps  does in happen in times of unrest?    are people   reacting to a situation?

yes people are  doing wrongful thing  but  there are reasons  behind this.

we need  to   treat the  illness not the symptoms


----------



## silvershoes (Aug 8, 2011)

Yes, Hamilton's the old pub, now a very friendly supermarket. They are ok, shaken up. Don't know what/how much was taken. But what have they got to do with any of this? Just a small local friendly business, now that I've managed to forgive them for the absence of Hamilton's pub.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

If this was all about greed, trainers and opportunism, they would find an opportunity a lot more often.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 8, 2011)

Certainly within the 14 years of New Labour.

Can't possibly be to do with almost a million youth unemployed, Council youth budgets reduced by 75% - I know it can't because a lot of middle aged politicians on the tv keep telling me, time and time again.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

innit said:


> Shit, really? That's out of order - esp as it's 24 hrs so would have been robbery of the guys who were working, not just looting.



Pretty sure it was him.  Youngish guy (almost bald/short cropped hair) they were talking to and they showed the shop, then cut to those girls turning the corner at Carpet Right/Carpet Land/New Sainsbury's with their goodies, although not sure if the girls were the ones that robbed him, and I assume it was him and his shop as I missed the start of the clip


----------



## Glennard (Aug 8, 2011)

From the Guardian blog...

"10.16pm: Brixton: Sam Francis is in Loughborough Junction Brixton, where he witnessed 30 youths, faces covered, being chased into the station by two police officers. Police vans and cars were also in pursuit, and blocked the youths inside the station. More as we get it."


----------



## uk benzo (Aug 8, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> is looting a regular occurance? does in happen all the time?
> 
> or perhaps does in happen in times of unrest? are people reacting to a situation?
> 
> ...



What are their reasons for rampaging and looting? What are their reasons for their random acts of violence that almost killed an innocent man by stabbing him in the eye? I'm interested to know? Is it out of respect to the man that got shot in Hackney?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> If this was all about greed, trainers and opportunism, they would find an opportunity a lot more often.



I'm speculating that a small part of the problem is the school holidays, and the opportunities for usually-occupied youths to talk each other up into a state of "let's go fuck some shit up!" When you're a teen and you get in a bragging competition with your mates, shit can happen.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Certainly within the 14 years of New Labour.
> 
> Can't possibly be to do with almost a million youth unemployed, Council youth budgets reduced by 75% - I know it can't because a lot of middle aged politicians on the tv keep telling me, time and time again.



Labour weren't stupid enough to strip-mine local services and give people the finger, the ConDems *have* been that stupid, and now they're reaping some of what they've sown.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm speculating that a small part of the problem is the school holidays, and the opportunities for usually-occupied youths to talk each other up into a state of "let's go fuck some shit up!" When you're a teen and you get in a bragging competition with your mates, shit can happen.



I guess there are a lot of parts to this problem.  But all we're getting now is 'pure criminality'.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 8, 2011)

uk benzo said:


> What are their reasons for rampaging and looting? What are their reasons for their random acts of violence that almost killed an innocent man by stabbing him in the eye? I'm interested to know? Is it out of respect to the man that got shot in Hackney?



reason isn't the same as justification you know


----------



## carib1164 (Aug 8, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> reason isn't the same as justification you know


You're an absolute twat!


----------



## billythefish (Aug 8, 2011)

qosno1 said:


> Is it time to mob up into a civilian vigilante squad to protect the ritzy, the library and other important sites?


Apparently, the Londis in East Dulwich was being looted just now, and the locals have barricaded the looters inside...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

billythefish said:


> Apparently, the Londis in East Dulwich was being looted just now, and the locals have barricaded the looters inside...



Fantastic news if true, but will there even be any police available to arrest them?


----------



## carib1164 (Aug 8, 2011)

billythefish said:


> Apparently, the Londis in East Dulwich was being looted just now, and the locals have barricaded the looters inside...


Nice..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> I guess there are a lot of parts to this problem. But all we're getting now is 'pure criminality'.



"Pure criminality" is an easy call to make at a remove though, isn't it? Cunts like Theresa May giving it the bigg'un about "pure criminality" and how people who're involved will be "dealt with", and not a whisper about how her government's policies have contributed.

I hope that these riots provoke another public enquiry, and I hope for someone like Scarman, who wasn't quite as craven as many of his colleagues would have been.


----------



## uk benzo (Aug 8, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> reason isn't the same as justification you know



So give me some reasons why the yoot have decided to loot and pillage? What kind of anger must one have to loot an independent convenience store? It's senseless violence. In this instance, I really don't think one can attempt to explain away the actual actions of the yoot. Sure government cuts to public services etc have made things more tense over holidays, but common sense should prevail. FFS, I'm originally from a country where police brutality and poverty are the norm, but we never vented by burning down our neighbours' houses/shops and stealing.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Pure criminality" is an easy call to make at a remove though, isn't it? Cunts like Theresa May giving it the bigg'un about "pure criminality" and how people who're involved will be "dealt with", and not a whisper about how her government's policies have contributed.
> 
> I hope that these riots provoke another public enquiry, and I hope for someone like Scarman, who wasn't quite as craven as many of his colleagues would have been.



Sorry, I meant all we're getting now [in the media from the talking heads as a reason] is 'pure criminality'.


----------



## story (Aug 8, 2011)

It's all a bit siren-tastic out there at the moment. I can hear a fire engine, i think.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Sorry, I meant all we're getting now [in the media from the talking heads as a reason] is 'pure criminality'.



Yeah, I know, I wasn't saying *you* were guilty of it!

It's not just the media, though, it's the line the pols have taken too. Divorcing what's happening from any sort of context.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 8, 2011)

there must be a reason.

these things don't just happen.

i would say it probably a loss of a feeling of agency. the loss of a feeling like you have real control in your life combined with an indifferent community. why are these yooth out on the street? why arn't they with their parents why arn't they with their friends doing normal non rioting yooth things?

i'm not trying to justify these actions as the actions are fucked up but if people refuse to try and look into the reasons why these things are happening these things are going to happen again

the people rioting arn't animals they are human beings they have in themselves the ability to be good people and it is us as a society who have let them fall so low as to act like animals

ok i'm not  dismissing personal culpability  but  when it's a whole section of the community who are participating in the  crime   this rises above a purely  personal issue


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yeah, I know, I wasn't saying *you* were guilty of it!
> 
> It's not just the media, though, it's the line the pols have taken too. *Divorcing what's happening from any sort of context.*



That's all right then. I don't have to cut you.   And yes, that.   A good tweet quoted here by OU earlier along the lines of  ''it's possible to think something is wrong and be able to see the wider context at the same time''


----------



## malice (Aug 8, 2011)

story said:


> It's all a bit siren-tastic out there at the moment. I can hear a fire engine, i think.


yes, suddenly a lot more - not sure where exactly, maybe acre lane? Heading over to clapham junction maybe


----------



## metal13 (Aug 8, 2011)

malice said:


> yes, suddenly a lot more - not sure where exactly, maybe acre lane? Heading over to clapham junction maybe


That's what it sounded like to me. Chopper around as well.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 8, 2011)

malice said:


> yes, suddenly a lot more - not sure where exactly, maybe acre lane? Heading over to clapham junction maybe


Blue lights all over St Matthews Road just now. Police car broke down outside my place. I asked them where it was kicking off and they said "everywhere - stay inside".


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

An hour ago there were a few going up B hill. In the last few minutes several going down B hill.

I


----------



## paolo (Aug 8, 2011)

malice said:


> yes, suddenly a lot more - not sure where exactly, maybe acre lane? Heading over to clapham junction maybe



I just heard loads too... I was on the side of our house facing towards Tulse Hill, so assumed it was over that way.


----------



## qosno1 (Aug 8, 2011)

not been a peep on acre lane for more than an hour


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> That's all right then. I don't have to cut you.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2011)

I imagine there's going to be a ton of arrests in the upcoming weeks when things have calmed down and the CCTV footage is studied.


----------



## uk benzo (Aug 8, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> there must be a reason.
> 
> these things don't just happen.
> 
> ...



I am not going to mollycoddle someone who has just voluntarily smashed up someone's home and stolen their belongings because they feel that they've got nothing better to do. They dishonour the achievements gained by those who really struggled in the face of institutional racism. They piss all over the sacrifices made by those who truly suffered at the hands of the police. These kids need to be taught about the history of struggle and what others had to endure for them to be able to go about freely smashing shit up randomly.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 8, 2011)

if  we as a society  don't take responsibility  for our children who will?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

The helicopter seems to be over at Clapham, maybe.  I can hear it at the back of the flat not the front.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

uk benzo said:


> I am not going to mollycoddle someone who has just voluntarily smashed up someone's home and stolen their belongings because they feel that they've got nothing better to do. They dishonour the achievements gained by those who really struggled in the face of institutional racism. They piss all over the sacrifices made by those who truly suffered at the hands of the police. These kids need to be taught about the history of struggle and what others had to endure for them to be able to go about freely smashing shit up randomly.



So ignorance is the reason?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> An hour ago there were a few going up B hill. In the last few minutes several going down B hill.
> 
> I



Up and now like a yoyo at the moment


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 8, 2011)

From Brazas.. "For all those in Brixton, @Brazas_ is fine, it is a rumour but we would like the community to work with us, and prevent damage to d area."


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> The helicopter seems to be over at Clapham, maybe. I can hear it at the back of the flat not the front.



I'm definitely going deaf


----------



## via-strass (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> I imagine there's going to be a ton of arrests in the upcoming weeks when things have calmed down and the CCTV footage is studied


Yes, my guess is there will be police snatch squads roaming around every sink estate in South London checking faces against several thousand grainy images of young black men taken at night with their faces partially covered. Can't see how that would fail as a detection strategy. Presumably every single identification will stand up in court as well.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

Another 3 up the Hill


----------



## Crispy (Aug 8, 2011)

uk benzo said:


> I am not going to mollycoddle someone who has just voluntarily smashed up someone's home and stolen their belongings because they feel that they've got nothing better to do. They dishonour the achievements gained by those who really struggled in the face of institutional racism. They piss all over the sacrifices made by those who truly suffered at the hands of the police. These kids need to be taught about the history of struggle and what others had to endure for them to be able to go about freely smashing shit up randomly.


Fine. Criminal justice has to be served.
But what we're seeing is a symptom of the problems that shippy outlined. middle-class kids from the home counties, with job prospects and a secure family, haven't been spontaneously rioting. It is gross inequality, poverty and the breakdown of community and family that are the fertile soil for this sort of behaviour.


----------



## paolo (Aug 8, 2011)

Something going off in Camden now.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Up and now like a yoyo at the moment



7 up the hill in last couple of mins.


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not just the media, though, it's the line the pols have taken too. Divorcing what's happening from any sort of context.


Fuck the context! Nothing that the authorities have done justifies this criminality.


----------



## beekeeper (Aug 8, 2011)

editor said:


> I imagine there's going to be a ton of arrests in the upcoming weeks when things have calmed down and the CCTV footage is studied.



where to put them though? there are only so many cells - and prisons are full as it is!?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

4 just up and 1 just down


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> 7 up the hill in last couple of mins.



And another 3.

I'm not really sure if all police or one maybe ambulance.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 8, 2011)

via-strass said:


> Yes, my guess is there will be police snatch squads roaming around every sink estate in South London checking faces against several thousand grainy images of young black men taken at night with their faces partially covered. Can't see how that would fail as a detection strategy. Presumably every single identification will stand up in court as well.


Lambeth are bringing in a requirement for tenants to have their photographs stored on a database. That would be a very useful database to have access to in such investigations.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> Fuck the context! Nothing that the authorities have done justifies this criminality.



Yet another abject failure to grasp the distinction between reasons, contextual or not, and justifications.


----------



## uk benzo (Aug 8, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> if we as a society don't take responsibility for our children who will?



I am not responsible for a looter/mugger etc. I would imagine most of the 'yoot' that perpetrate wanton violence are actually close to adulthood and thus should know the difference between what is right and what is wrong.

For sure I am for investing time and energy into helping children.... but these fuckers that attack random strangers and burn down houses and know that they are clearly doing something wrong, they should actually be taking responsibility for their own fucking actions..


----------



## uk benzo (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> So ignorance is the reason?



What are you banging on about?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> And another 3.
> 
> I'm not really sure if all police or one maybe ambulance.



They were all vans going up and a car going down.

Someone's on Twitter's saying their street in Streatham is full of smoke


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 8, 2011)

Emet said:


> Fuck the context! Nothing that the authorities have done justifies this criminality.



Setting fire to buildings where people have homes, endangering lives is fucking stupid, at best.

But.

This country has been raped by the current ruling cabal. The young w/c have no future. No EMA funding to get the poor through 6th form college and uni is now an unrealistic possibility for most. There's also fuck all jobs. There's nothing.

The overwhelming corruption and backhand deals between the media, politicians and police are out for all to see. The cards are fixed and most people know there's no hope.

This is a reaction. They have little to lose.


----------



## beekeeper (Aug 8, 2011)

Is there a possibility this is not going to stop until there are no shops worth looting left? what would be the math on this? another couple of days?!


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 8, 2011)

uk benzo said:


> I am not responsible for a looter/mugger etc. I would imagine most of the 'yoot' that perpetrate wanton violence are actually close to adulthood and thus should know the difference between what is right and what is wrong.
> 
> For sure I am for investing time and energy into helping children.... but these fuckers that attack random strangers and burn down houses and know that they are clearly doing something wrong, they should actually be taking responsibility for their own fucking actions..



yes they should. but this is a two way thing.

i'm not saying rioters should be absolved of their sins i saying socity should sit up and ask why and try to adress these problems before they arise

is it better to just condem people who have acted wrongly or to try to create a world where these things don't happen?


----------



## Crispy (Aug 8, 2011)

uk benzo said:


> For sure I am for investing time and energy into helping children


the lack of which during this entire generation is resposible for


> these fuckers that attack random strangers and burn down houses and know that they are clearly doing something wrong, they should actually be taking responsibility for their own fucking actions..


when everyone else in society says "fuck you", pride and responsibility for your actions becomes a bit of a joke. No excuse for this behaviour, but it doesn't spring unformed. There are reasons why it is these people in these places and those reasons are deep and old.


----------



## uk benzo (Aug 8, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Fine. Criminal justice has to be served.
> But what we're seeing is a symptom of the problems that shippy outlined. middle-class kids from the home counties, with job prospects and a secure family, haven't been spontaneously rioting. It is gross inequality, poverty and the breakdown of community and family that are the fertile soil for this sort of behaviour.



I am not denying this.. in fact I agree with you. But at some point, these kids have to take responsibility of their own actions. Sure the government need to invest more in under-funded areas in the long term, but in the interim, we can't just have the yoot run riot and pass comment that this is just a symptom that we should expect.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 8, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> is it better to just condem people who have acted wrongly or to try to create a world where these things don't happen?



both


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 8, 2011)

Crispy said:


> both



it's an OR not XOR


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

just went totally quiet. aarrggh. a few nervous lookin cops. wtf.


----------



## metal13 (Aug 8, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> it's an OR not XOR


Life is not based on boolean logic.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 8, 2011)

uk benzo said:


> What are you banging on about?



This, which you posted earlier.



> These kids need to be taught about the history of struggle and what others had to endure for them to be able to go about freely smashing shit up randomly.


Implying that if they knew their history they wouldn't act as they do. Meaning ignorance would be a/the reason.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2011)

For some reason I got this email from the Fernadale ward Cllrs. Im not in that ward.

Brixton is a strong and united community that utterly condemns the scenes we saw last night. People were shocked and appalled by the vandalism and hooliganism we witnessed and this kind of criminal behaviour has absolutely no place in our community.

Let’s be very clear that this is simply opportunistic criminal activity that has no justification whatsoever - it’s criminal disorder not riots. Relations between the community and police today are strong, and this incident will not undermine the huge progress made over the past decades.

We are now determined that the borough gets back to normal as quickly as possible and will be offering all the support we can to the police and reassurance to local people and businesses. 

Please also see a message from the Leader of the Council, Cllr Steve Reed. 
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/News/2011/080811AMessageFromCouncillorSteveReed.htm

Please feel free to contact any of us if you have any concerns or questions. 

Regards, 

*Councillors Paul McGlone, Sally Prentice and Neil Sabharwal*
*Ferndale** ward*

Also this is by Cllr Steve Reed the leader of Lambeth Council:

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/News/2011/080811AMessageFromCouncillorSteveReed.htm

After the scenes we saw here in Lambeth last night, I want to make it clear that Brixton is a strong and united community. Over recent years we have benefited from strong community relations and sensitive policing.

I've spoken to many people from all sections of the community over the past few hours, and they have all said the same thing - that there is absolutely no justification for the kind of vandalism and looting seen on the High Street yesterday. They are shocked and appalled by what they have seen and are united in condemnation of this type of behaviour, which has no place in our community.

Let's be clear - this was opportunistic criminal behaviour by a tiny minority intent on causing disruption and stealing from businesses. This will not undermine the huge progress made over the past decade to build trust and respect. This is no return to 1981.
Our job now is to get Brixton back to normal as quickly as possible so people can get on with their lives. We will offer all the support we can to the police with their investigations, and to local residents and businesses that have been affected to get them back on their feet.

The community in Brixton is strong and resilient. Last night's incidents will not damage that.
Read about my walkabout around Brixton this morning.

So the Labour party line is that this was not a riot. That it was purely criminal behaviour. Problem here is that if this was the case for last Sunday night then it should be the case for all previous "riots" including 81. Now termed an "Uprising". Be interesting if Reed says this is so

Ive been present in Brixton for all the riots. In Riots destruction of property and looting is what happens. Also the kind of violence that other posters have said happened around the Barrier Block.

Ive been reading some of the Guardian today and the same arguments are being used that were used in the aftermath of the 81 riot. ( now seen as an Uprising). Its either pure criminality or there are underlying reasons- like structural inequality.

Also what is the trust with the Police that Reed goes on about ? What happened at Stockwell when that Brazilian got shot? What about the Evening Standard seller who died? The Police shoot people and u never get to the bottom of it. People die in Police custody and u never get to the bottom of it. Like that guy whose friends and family light candles outside Brixton Police station.

Who are all these people Reed and other Cllrs have talked to that all say this was pure criminality? Like Shippou posts u have to look at the underlying reasons behind this.

In the 80s Scarman did. And I can tell u that the events of last Sunday night werent that different , except in scale, to what happened in 81. There are not good and bad riots. I dont see the two pieces above as any help at all.

And I dont need , as a member of the community, to be told that the community is strong and resilient.


----------



## gabi (Aug 8, 2011)

traffic seems to have been stopped again northbound


----------



## Emet (Aug 8, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Yet another abject failure to grasp the distinction between reasons, contextual or not, and justifications.


Let the moronic fuckwits contemplate the reasons for their own behaviour from behind prison bars and for a very long time.


----------



## netbob (Aug 8, 2011)

No sirens for 10 minutes


----------



## netbob (Aug 9, 2011)

and they are back


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> Let the moronic fuckwits contemplate the reasons for their own behaviour from behind prison bars and for a very long time.



That's besides the point. The point is to get people to ask themselves and others - _how did it get to the stage where big groups of mostly young poor youth think that it's a good idea to loot and burn down shops and homes, some of them in their own communities?_

And there are two aspects to that broad question; one proximal, looking at the events in the days and weeks leading up to this, and the other distal, looking at years and decades of change in these communities. Questions of reasons and justifications, two related but separate questions, can both be answered in a longer and shorter perspective. Not doing so is wilful and at times malicious ignorance as it excuses a focus on short-term individual motivations and dispositions over the larger context that allowed such motivations and dispositions to flourish.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

memespring said:


> and they are back



Is McDonald's really on fire or is that just Twatter rumours?  Also say Superdrug's been done


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

nah maccas is fine...

very very quiet tho


----------



## colacubes (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Is McDonald's really on fire or is that just Twatter rumours? Also say Superdrug's been done



He was talking about the sirens.  Centre of Brixton seems eerily quiet tbh.  We've got our front windows open and would probably hear something like that but can't.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> That's besides the point.


No it isn't, it'll discourage the others.


----------



## hektik (Aug 9, 2011)

streatham's just been hit - youths wandering up and down the high street. carphone warehouse the first to be targeted.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

hektik said:


> streatham's just been hit - youths wandering up and down the high street. carphone warehouse the first to be targeted.



A few shops (including Argos) got done last night.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> No it isn't, it'll discourage the others.



For a while.  All it does is put the lid on the pot for a little while.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

nipsla said:


> He was talking about the sirens. Centre of Brixton seems eerily quiet tbh. We've got our front windows open and would probably hear something like that but can't.



I'm ignoring Twatter for any reliable info on Brixton now and relying on news from the Urbanites in Brixton


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

nipsla said:


> He was talking about the sirens. Centre of Brixton seems eerily quiet tbh. We've got our front windows open and would probably hear something like that but can't.



I agree Brixton is eerily quiet and there hardly any people on the street. Every shop looks like it was told to close early.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> No it isn't, it'll discourage the others.



What, in a year's time? Lots of people have been nicked already, I don't see that it's helped.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> For a while. All it does is put the lid on the pot for a little while.


They can't bother us if they are in prison.


----------



## colacubes (Aug 9, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Dont know what u think but Brixton is so quiet and hardly any people on the street. Every shop looks like it was told to close early.



Definitely.  We left The Albert at 10.30 and everywhere (even House of Bottles ffs) was shut.  It's actually rather spooky and given that, last night and the attempted robbery in our building, I don't imagine I'll get much sleep tonight


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> They can't bother us if they are in prison.



All of them?  For how long?  Life?  If not life what will have changed when they get out?  I'm not sure you've entirely thought this plan out.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> What, in a year's time? Lots of people have been nicked already, I don't see that it's helped.


This will probably stop in a few days. But there is a culture of violence in underclass communities that gives rise to what we are seeing. It should be squashed with very long prison sentences.


----------



## editor (Aug 9, 2011)

Coldharbour Lane is still deathly quiet.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 9, 2011)

Oh my.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> They can't bother us if they are in prison.



If every single one of them is rounded up and imprisoned, the number of people with the same mindset motives and means will not be zero this time next year. The problem is structural, the symptoms are temporal. "Messing with the leaves, when the roots are sick"


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> All of them? For how long? Life? If not life what will have changed when they get out? I'm not sure you've entirely thought this plan out.


The young commit most criminal offences. Until they are not young any more. That should do the trick.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 9, 2011)

School to 16, prison to 25. Simples!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

editor said:


> Coldharbour Lane is still deathly quiet.



Sounds like Brixton is the quietest place in London atm barring the sirens!


----------



## colacubes (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> The young commit most criminal offences. Until they are not young any more. That should do the trick.



And then they come out of prison uneducated, even more disposessed and probably having learnt to do crime better.  It's really not so simple.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> This will probably stop in a few days. But there is a culture of violence in underclass communities that gives rise to what we are seeing. It should be squashed with very long prison sentences.



No it wouldn't. Look to the states. Look to Russia. Look to anywhere where "more prison" is thought to be the answer. It isn't.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

Crispy said:


> If every single one of them is rounded up and imprisoned, the number of people with the same mindset motives and means will not be zero this time next year. The problem is structural, the symptoms are temporal. "Messing with the leaves, when the roots are sick"


For instance, the rate of homicide, and other violent crime, in the United States used to be very much higher than it is now. A policy of very long sentences has reduced it.


----------



## colacubes (Aug 9, 2011)

Crispy said:


> School to 16, prison to 25. Simples!



And probably only slightly cheaper than university.  I'm gonna get on the phone to No10 and suggest this.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Aug 9, 2011)

It seems we have exported our Brixton youth to Clapham Junction. Worrying about the fires up there - all those flats above party superstore and above carphone warehouse, very worrying.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> For instance, the rate of homicide, and other violent crime, in the United States used to be very much higher than it is now. A policy of very long sentences has reduced it.



The rate of violent crime in the USA in 2009 was more or less the same as in 1979. Homicide rates have stagnated. And they are still far higher than in Europe. Access to good birth control (ie legal abortion) in the 70s and a massive drop in lead exposure (which is well linked to crime levels) are also important contributory factors. In fact, if you look at the graph, you can easily see that a massive drop in crime coincided with the Clinton administration, and tapered off as Bush 2 came into power.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Aug 9, 2011)

BBC news has pictures - smoke from party superstore, looked like just smoke but then fire from the ceiling and now massively burning.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> The rate of violent crime in the USA in 2009 was more or less the same as in 1979. Homicide rates have stagnated. And they are still far higher than in Europe. Access to good birth control (ie legal abortion) in the 70s and a massive drop in lead exposure (which is well linked to crime levels) are also important contributory factors. In fact, if you look at the graph, you can easily see that a massive drop in crime coincided with the Clinton administration, and tapered off as Bush 2 came into power.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Open up the page. It is a lot higher in 1990 than in 1979 or 2010.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
> 
> Open up the page. It is a lot higher in 1990 than in 1979 or 2010.



You either didn't read or didn't understand what I just wrote. Try again. What connection might there be between the introduction of legalised abortion (Roe vs. Wade, 1973) and a massive drop in crime 20 years later? What connection might there be between the introduction of unleaded gasoline and overall smaller lead exposure from the 70s onwards and a drop in crime in the 90?


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

The states are mostly in control of penal policy, and sentencing. And anyway Clinton was very keen to show himself tough on crime. He approved the execution of a  very brain damaged convict, who apparently did not understand the reason for his own execution, during the presidential campaign.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> You either didn't read or didn't understand what I just wrote. Try again. What connection might there be between the introduction of legalised abortion (Roe vs. Wade, 1973) and a massive drop in crime 20 years later? What connection might there be between the introduction of unleaded gasoline and overall smaller lead exposure from the 70s onwards and a drop in crime in the 90?


No, I disregarded them. I'm not aware that criminology takes either theory seriously.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

So you see no connection between birth control and crime, no connection between lead exposure and crime?

I see you answered me. What criminologists think of that you'll have to ask them. That said most criminologists would disagree that longer sentences per se reduces crime. One example of many: Norway steadily increased prison sentences for drug crimes until some of them carried the maximum penalty available in Norwegian penal law. The result? Drug crimes have been rising steadily for 40 years.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

Chukas made a statement:

http://www.chuka.org.uk/2011/08/statement-on-unrest-in-brixton-and-streatham-by-chuka-umunna-mp/

Our Borough awoke this morning to news of looting and violence on our streets overnight, following similar disturbances in Tottenham and Enfield on Saturday.
Last Thursday, in Tottenham, a father of four – Mark Duggan – lost his life during a police operation. As his MP, my good friend and colleague, David Lammy has said, the IPCC must get to the bottom of what happened that day. Mr Duggan’s family subsequently organised a peaceful protest on Saturday only for it to be hijacked by a few thugs leading to widespread violence in the Tottenham constituency.
I, along with my other colleagues, Tessa Jowell and Kate Hoey, represent the three constituencies covering the Brixton area. Last night, a minority of people used the tragic situation in Tottenham as an excuse to loot local businesses and wreck havoc on the streets of Brixton and along parts of Streatham High Road too. The motives of those responsible for this were completely opportunistic and their actions totally unacceptable.
There can be no excuse for such acts and the context in which the unrest occurred here in Lambeth is in no way comparable to the situation in Tottenham where the police are accused of shooting dead a member of that community in the last seven days – it would be a mistake to claim otherwise.
A number of people have also sought to draw parallels between the violence and looting of the last twenty four hours and the Brixton riots of the 1980s. Again, I believe this would be a mistake – police community relations then were at an all time low and we have made a huge amount of progress since. Police community relations in Lambeth now are not perfect (and probably never will be), yet we are in a far better place: there is frequent dialogue and partnership working; Safer Neighbourhood Teams and Panels operate in every ward; and, important institutions like the excellent Lambeth Community Police Consultative Group (CPCG) are regularly consulted.
There will be those who ask, what possesses people to engage in such criminality, to loot, to engage in violence? What is it about their circumstances that fail to inspire them to choose a different course? We should seek answers and address the root causes but this in no way excuses theft and violence.
Questions will also be asked about whether the response of the police was all it could have been and they are currently reviewing the deployment of their resources. We must remain calm and allow them the space to do this.
Finally, in my view many have been too quick to attribute the criminality we saw to young people without waiting for the full facts to emerge or for the police to complete their enquiries and determine who to charge. My understanding is that people of all ages were involved in stealing from the Curry’s in Brixton for example.
It is ordinary people’s lives who have been harmed by these events; the independent shopkeepers who have had their premises looted whom I have spoken to today, the people who struggled to get to work this morning due to the disruption caused and the people who were afraid to leave their homes last night. We stand beside them with a clear message that our community will not stand for this. We will work to bring the perpetrators to justice – they do not speak for us. We live in a wonderful community and we will not allow them to drag us down.

Its better than Reeds. But a few issues with it.

1) The situation in Brixton is different from Tottenham Chuka says --But we keep being told we are all Londoners. People will be affected by what happens in other parts of London. The shooting in Tottenham was a catalyst not an event unique to Tottenham.

2) U cannot compare this with the riots of the 80s Chuka says--What does he know about that as he was born in 1978. I remember the 80s and I think u can draw some parallels. The question to ask is why are so many politicians so quick to say that u cant compare this to 80s?

3) Im starting to find it tedious when politicians go on about "our community" and "our community" that. When what they should say is the people in the local community who I have talked to say that ... Not everyone in the community have the same views as Chuka. Chuka and other politicians should say they have talked to the community and there view (based on talking to some of there constituents) is that..


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

nipsla said:


> Definitely. We left The Albert at 10.30 and everywhere (even House of Bottles ffs) was shut. It's actually rather spooky and given that, last night and the attempted robbery in our building, I don't imagine I'll get much sleep tonight



Ive just been chatting to my Brazilian friend on FB in North London as this all has made her frightened.

Also talked to young ( well I seem to be getting older than a lot of people) woman today in West End office who lives in Hackney. Was chatting to her about the previous riots in London and realised that its all history to a lot of people. She didnt know much about them. But was interested.

Its strange but ive only just realised that Im quite used to riots.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> So you see no connection between birth control and crime, no connection between lead exposure and crime?
> 
> I see you answered me. What criminologists think of that you'll have to ask them. That said most criminologists would disagree that longer sentences per se reduces crime. One example of many: Norway steadily increased prison sentences for drug crimes until some of them carried the maximum penalty available in Norwegian penal law. The result? Drug crimes have been rising steadily for 40 years.


Most indicted crime is committed by poor people in the United Stated. The 1991 US census notes a decline in family size amongst the poor just at a time when crime was rising.


----------



## bluestreak (Aug 9, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> For some reason I got this email from the Fernadale ward Cllrs. Im not in that ward.and resilient.



Reed can fuck off.  He's a coward, showed no balls or initiative in dealing with cuts, he just let it all happen and might as well have told us all to go fuck ourselves.  Now the youth are telling us all to go fuck ourselves and he pretends it's nothing to do with him and his crew.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Ive just been chatting to my Brazilian friend on FB in North London as this all has made her frightened.
> 
> Also talked to young ( well I seem to be getting older than a lot of people) woman today in West End office who lives in Hackney. Was chatting to her about the previous riots in London and realised that its all history to a lot of people. She didnt know much about them. But was interested.
> 
> Its strange but ive only just realised that Im quite used to riots.



Someone rang me from Ireland to make sure we were ok.  Unfortunately, they misdialled and got through to a Cypriot woman living in London who was absolutely petrified.  He advised her from Ireland to stay indoors.  She had no intention of leaving the house though


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> Most indicted crime is committed by poor people in the United Stated. The 1991 US census notes a decline in family size amongst the poor just at a time when crime was rising.



Only to level off a couple of years later and then decline quite dramatically. Really, is that the best you can do?


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

bluestreak said:


> Reed can fuck off. He's a coward, showed no balls or initiative in dealing with cuts, he just let it all happen and might as well have told us all to go fuck ourselves. Now the youth are telling us all to go fuck ourselves and he pretends it's nothing to do with him and his crew.



My neighbour, who's been hassling him about the new fucked-up development in the old Fulham Timber Yard on Acre Lane, reports that Reed now actively avoids many locals who have various issues with Council/Lambeth Labour policy.


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## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Only to level off a couple of years later and then decline quite dramatically. Really, is that the best you can do?


I think you'll find that the decrease in family size among the poor and the increase in violent crime in the US proceed together over decades. The change in sentencing policy began during the 1980's.


----------



## chavezcat (Aug 9, 2011)

I am so sad to see flats and shops burned, whether it is in Brixton or anywhere in London and beyond. Living in the heartland of Brixton, the absolute best part of my day is seeing the same faces -black or white, latino and arab, south or east asian, and any other combo that is out there. As the oddball American, the worst thing is the disenfranchisement of the formerly incarcerated from voting.


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## wheelie_bin (Aug 9, 2011)

>> As the oddball American, the worst thing is the disenfranchisement of the formerly incarcerated from voting.

Seriously? People's businesses and homes are destroyed, but throughout that you worry more about when exactly the voting rights kick in for people who have been convicted of crime?


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> I think you'll find that the decrease in family size among the poor and the increase in violent crime in the US proceed together over decades. The change in sentencing policy began during the 1980's.



Must do better.

Family size has been declining for centuries. In other words it is overall not correlated with crime. Even family composition (ie single or double parent household, female or male single parent proportion) looks to only have a weak correlation with crime levels.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Must do better.
> 
> Family size has been declining for centuries. In other words it is overall not correlated with crime. Even family composition (ie single or double parent household, female or male single parent proportion) looks to only have a weak correlation with crime levels.


The notion that increasing family size is related to family planning policy is yours not mine. Amongst those most likely to commit crime, family size has fallen, whatever the family planning policy.


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## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> Most indicted crime is committed by poor people in the United Stated. The 1991 US census notes a decline in family size amongst the poor just at a time when crime was rising.



Also there is the problem of Black Men being dis-proportionality represented in the prison population in the US. Which has been pretty constant in US.This has more to do with the social position of Black people in the US than some inherent propensity for Black men to be criminals.

The same goes for the poor.

Ive read "The Spirit Level" by Wilkinson and Pickett which looks at how the more unequal a society is the more it is prone to a range of social problems. They looked at a comparison of industrialised societies that were similar in development of industry etc.

Here is piece from authors website on violence:

http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence/violence

Check out the short video as well in the link. Discusses how social status affects propensity of violence. Also looks at murder rates across different USA states and how they relate to inequality.

The link between inequality and homicide rates has been shown in as many as 40 studies, and the differences are large: there are five-fold differences in murder rates between different countries related to inequality. The most important reason why violence is more common in more unequal societies is that it is often triggered by people feeling looked down, disrespected and loss of face.


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## chavezcat (Aug 9, 2011)

Hmm well I would say unlike the UK, America takes a more draconian view towards criminal convictions...as in someone convicted can't vote, ever, which doesn't help rehab/ integration into society. Merely going on the past graph post and putting something positive about the UK system compared to the US system. Part of the huge problem in the US system is people remain disenfranchised, long after they have served time.
I think this looting/rioting is abhorrent, in particular any fires. This is wanton destruction of lives and property. It is criminal and I hope they catch the bastards.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> The notion that increasing family size is related to family planning policy is yours not mine. Amongst those most likely to commit crime, family size has fallen, whatever the family planning policy.



a) got a source for that? and
b) it's not changing family size that mattered in regards to the effect of legalised abortion, it's about having more choice of WHEN to have a baby. Family size, as I say, has fallen since records began, hence has no relation to crime levels. If you insist otherwise show me some sources, some stats. I'm taking my numbers from here http://www.infoplease.com/familytrends.html


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

The availability of abortion or contraception by the state doesn't seem to have an obvious relationship to family size, or the commission of crime, amongst the poor, or any other social strata, in the US.


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Family size is largely irrelevant. And abortion does arguably have an effect on crime.


----------



## bluestreak (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> My neighbour, who's been hassling him about the new fucked-up development in the old Fulham Timber Yard on Acre Lane, reports that Reed now actively avoids many locals who have various issues with Council/Lambeth Labour policy.



doesn't surprise me, he's about as much use to this community as the looters.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> a) got a source for that? and
> b) it's not changing family size that mattered in regards to the effect of legalised abortion, it's about having more choice of WHEN to have a baby. Family size, as I say, has fallen since records began, hence has no relation to crime levels. If you insist otherwise show me some sources, some stats. I'm taking my numbers from here http://www.infoplease.com/familytrends.html


I once had to write a sociology essay about the family and reproduction. I don't recall the essay question. My tutor lent me a copy of the Statistical Abstract of the US Bureau of the Census, 1991. I don't have it in front of me. I am sure that it was clear that family size amongst the poor declined steadily through the 1970's through to the late 1980's.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots

This is a good article by Nina Power on the context for the riots:

Combine understandable suspicion of and resentment towards the police based on experience and memory with high poverty and large unemployment and the reasons why people are taking to the streets become clear. (Haringey, the borough that includes Tottenham, has the fourth highest level of child poverty in London and an unemployment rate of 8.8%, double the national average, with one vacancy for every 54 seeking work in the borough.)

Those condemning the events of the past couple of nights in north London and elsewhere would do well to take a step back and consider the bigger picture: a country in which the richest 10% are now 100 times better off than the poorest, where consumerism predicated on personal debt has been pushed for years as the solution to a faltering economy, and where, according to the OECD, social mobility is worse than any other developed country.

As Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett point out in The Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone, phenomena usually described as "social problems" (crime, ill-health, imprisonment rates, mental illness) are far more common in unequal societies than ones with better economic distribution and less gap between the richest and the poorest. Decades of individualism, competition and state-encouraged selfishness – combined with a systematic crushing of unions and the ever-increasing criminalisation of dissent – have made Britain one of the most unequal countries in the developed world.

Images of burning buildings, cars aflame and stripped-out shops may provide spectacular fodder for a restless media, ever hungry for new stories and fresh groups to demonise, but we will understand nothing of these events if we ignore the history and the context in which they occur.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo&feature=youtu.be

*Nick Clegg "warns" of riots if Tories are elected (11Apr10) *


Found this hilarious old youtube piece where Clegg warns of riots if Tories are elected and bring in cuts. Also funny to see Tessa say we arent like the Greeks and dont do this sort of thing.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> I once had to write a sociology essay about the family and reproduction. I don't recall the essay question. My tutor lent me a copy of the Statistical Abstract of the US Bureau of the Census, 1991. I don't have it in front of me. I am sure that it was clear that family size amongst the poor declined steadily through the 1970's through to the late 1980's.



Again, that's besides the point. FFS I already showed that family size has been monotonously going down since the 18th fucking century. Crime has gone both up and down in that period. Hence???? And for the last time, abortion influences crime not through change in family size, but in *the timing of size increase*. I fucking hope you failed that essay if your logical chops were of the standard you show here.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Again, that's besides the point. FFS I already showed that family size has been monotonously going down since the 18th fucking century. Crime has gone both up and down in that period. Hence???? And for the last time, abortion influences crime not through change in family size, but in *the timing of size increase*. I fucking hope you failed that essay if your logical chops were of the standard you show here.


You suggested that a withdrawal of abortion and contraceptive services had a relationship to rising crime levels in the 1970's. The poor obviously had control of their fertility so this withdrawal has no relevance.


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## DrRingDing (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet just fuck off with your tedious twaddle.


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## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

Timing and size are the control of fertility. They go together.


----------



## chavezcat (Aug 9, 2011)

Well let us get back to the real things... EMA needs to be reinstated, along with a serious reconsideration on Uni fees.I don't know if this is an answer, but well it could help.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> You either didn't read or didn't understand what I just wrote. Try again. What connection might there be between the introduction of legalised abortion (Roe vs. Wade, 1973) and a massive drop in crime 20 years later?



J.R. Lott and John Whitley in a paper entitled
*Abortion and Crime: Unwanted Children and Out-of-Wedlock Births*

think just the opposite
* Abstract:  * 
 Abortion may prevent the birth of "unwanted" children, who would have relatively small investments in human capital and a higher probability of crime. On the other hand, some research suggests that legalizing abortion increases out-of-wedlock births and single parent families, which implies the opposite impact on investments in human capital and thus crime. The question is: what is the net impact? We find evidence that legalizing abortion increased murder rates by around about 0.5 to 7 percent. Previous estimates are shown to suffer from not directly linking the cohorts who are committing crime with whether they had been born before or after abortion was legal.


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## eroom (Aug 9, 2011)

Just wanted to say thanks to all urbanites: it's the only place that's given a calm and reliable description of the last three days in Brixton.


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> J.R. Lott and John Whitley in a paper entitled
> *Abortion and Crime: Unwanted Children and Out-of-Wedlock Births*
> 
> think just the opposite
> ...



Duly refuted by Levitt et al in 2005.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> You suggested that a withdrawal of abortion and contraceptive services had a relationship to rising crime levels in the 1970's. The poor obviously had control of their fertility so this withdrawal has no relevance.



You really didn't read what I wrote. I argued, basing my arguments on Levitt et al, that the *introduction* of abortion in 1973 contributed to the *decline* in crime levels in the 90s.


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## Chilavert (Aug 9, 2011)

Through my work I've received the following from the Cabinet Office on government next steps:
real efforts will be made tonight by the police to get control of any incidents; we can expect more robust policing and a massive stepping up of police action tonight critical in terms of assessing police activity and if other options need to be explored; 
next flashpoint Friday and Saturday nights 
focus remains on London, although very mindful of copycat incidents outside London;
determination to tackle looting and criminality;


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

eroom said:


> Just wanted to say thanks to all urbanites: it's the only place that's given a calm and reliable description of the last three days in Brixton.



Yeah, don't bother with that Twatter nonsense when you've got people who live in Brixton and can give reliable info.  You going to stay?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Chilavert said:


> Through my work I've received the following from the Cabinet Office on government next steps:
> real efforts will be made tonight by the police to get control of any incidents; we can expect more robust policing and a massive stepping up of police actiontonight critical in terms of assessing police activity and if other options need to be explored;
> next flashpoint Friday and Saturday nights
> focus remains on London, although very mindful of copycat incidents outside London;
> determination to tackle looting and criminality;



Where do you work then?


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Duly refuted by Levitt et al in 2005.


Levitt no longer believes in his original paper.  He seems to accept the lead as a cause of crime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impact_of_Legalized_Abortion_on_Crime
The original paper by Levitt and Donahue was much criticised.


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> Levitt no longer believes in his original paper. He seems to accept the lead as a cause of crime.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impact_of_Legalized_Abortion_on_Crime
> The original paper by Levitt and Donahue was much criticised.



Do you ever read what you or others post? See here http://www.freakonomics.com/2005/05/15/abortion-and-crime-who-should-you-believe/


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## Chilavert (Aug 9, 2011)

In emergency planning Minnie. That has come from the Civil Contingencies Sectretariat. If I see anything Brixton-specific I'll pass it on.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Chilavert said:


> In emergency planning Minnie. That has come from the Civil Contingencies Sectretariat. If I see anything Brixton-specific I'll pass it on.



I used to work at CCS, so thought you must be in a similar job and wondered if I might know you


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## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Do you ever read what you or others post? See here


The abortion theory has not much status. Get used to it.


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> The abortion theory has not much status. Get used to it.



Who gives a fuck about status? If you think status determines the veracity of findings you're sadly misinformed. Either evidence is supported or refuted - this evidence has not been refuted. So you get used to it.


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## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

can u take this nonsense to the why are these riots happening thread please?

anyone know if brix is alright at the mo?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> can u take this nonsense to the why are these riots happening thread please?
> 
> anyone know if brix is alright at the mo?



gaijin said it seemed fine a while ago, don't know if that's still the case, but can't say I've been hearing loads of sirens, so I'm hoping so


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> can u take this nonsense to the why are these riots happening thread please?
> 
> anyone know if brix is alright at the mo?



I think I've said enough. Emet doesn't seem receptive to actual evidence as opposed to armchair opinionating, so fuck him. Oh, and I'll be down in Brixton later, will report back.


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## happyshopper (Aug 9, 2011)

I was just just in M&S when it closed because, in the words of the young woman at the till, "they are coming down from Norwood". Most other shops seeming to be closing as well.


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## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

So M&S is shut?    What else is open/shut?


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## Rushy (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> can u take this nonsense to the why are these riots happening thread please?


This^^^



> anyone know if brix is alright at the mo?


[/quote]
Brixton Hill > BWL > Effra Road triangle all peaceful.
Lots of sirens but that's not particularly unusual.

Would be nice if someone could get the road sweepers in. Glass still all over the streets from Sunday. Had to carry the dog for the last stretch!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

happyshopper said:


> I was just just in M&S when it closed because, in the words of the young woman at the till, "they are coming down from Norwood". Most other shops seeming to be closing as well.



FFS 

I was just getting ready to go there.


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## OpalFruit (Aug 9, 2011)

Seriously, Brixton shops closing right now?


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## editor (Aug 9, 2011)

Yes. Shops are closing early. One business was advised that it might kick off tonight.


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## editor (Aug 9, 2011)

Superdrug has just put down its shutters too.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

editor said:


> Yes. Shops are closing early. One business was advised that it might kick off tonight.



Is traffic alright though, friend is supposed to be returning to Brixton from Old Kent Road/Walworth Road

Actually he drives, so I'm sure he'll find a way round any diversions anyway, so not to worry.


----------



## Ms. Cupcake (Aug 9, 2011)

We were told by police to close straight away, - all of market closed, Iceland closed etc.


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## Belushi (Aug 9, 2011)

Welcome aboard Ms Cupcake! Hope your shop is okay, your wares are very popular round here!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Ms. Cupcake said:


> We were told by police to close straight away, - all of market closed, Iceland closed etc.



Is this knock-on panic closing suggested by the police, or genuine reports of looters heading Brixton way from Camberwell and Norwood?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Welcome aboard Ms Cupcake! Hope your shop is okay, your wares are very popular round here!



I thought she posted on the old boards?


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## ajdown (Aug 9, 2011)

I had a friend tell me someone had texted him to say it was 'kicking off' in Camberwell, although I don't know this for sure.


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## Moonchild (Aug 9, 2011)

Friend of mine's kids have just been sent home from the Ritzy, film was stopped halfway through and audience told to leave...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Moonchild said:


> Friend of mine's kids have just been sent home from the Ritzy, film was stopped halfway through and audience told to leave...



Hope they demanded their money back!


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## kittyP (Aug 9, 2011)

Damn. I need to go to the shops. Should I go out now quickly then?


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## tomapep (Aug 9, 2011)

Just heard lewisham, sydenham all shut down. Ppl congregating on walworth road preparatory to more "action".


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## Ms. Cupcake (Aug 9, 2011)

It's so tricky to know what is real and what is rumour.  My instinct is to stay open in protest of the chaos that is going on but I have 6 members of staff, and I will not risk their safety.


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## editor (Aug 9, 2011)

Ms. Cupcake said:


> It's so tricky to know what is real and what is rumour. My instinct is to stay open in protest of the chaos that is going on but I have 6 members of staff, and I will not risk their safety.


Good call. It's really not worth the risk.


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## billythefish (Aug 9, 2011)

Brixton Hill shops being closed down. White Horse, Fortress Locks etc. being boarded up. There are loads of rumours, most unconfirmed, but no-one is taking chances.


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## ajdown (Aug 9, 2011)

I was looking forward to coming by for a cake this evening but I'd much rather do without a cake than risk there being no shop.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 9, 2011)

chopper over moorlands and loughborough junction way now


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## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

Ms. Cupcake said:


> It's so tricky to know what is real and what is rumour. My instinct is to stay open in protest of the chaos that is going on but I have 6 members of staff, and I will not risk their safety.



Depends on how far they have to go and what travel options they have too.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 9, 2011)

might just go buy some bread and cheese before it's too late :/


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## Belushi (Aug 9, 2011)

This seems to be happening across the capital, everyone is shutting up early.


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## tufty79 (Aug 9, 2011)

tomapep said:


> Just heard lewisham, sydenham all shut down. Ppl congregating on walworth road preparatory to more "action".


staff at cooltan arts (off east street) are going home as elephant and castle's 'too dangerous' :/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Ms. Cupcake said:


> It's so tricky to know what is real and what is rumour. My instinct is to stay open in protest of the chaos that is going on but I have 6 members of staff, and I will not risk their safety.



Oh, I'm not saying you're panicking or that the police are, I was just wondering if you'd be told of any genuine intelligence by the police.  Course you should shut up.  People are more valuable than properties, not that I want any more properties damaged/looted/burned


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

ajdown said:


> I was looking forward to coming by for a cake this evening but I'd much rather do without a cake than risk there being no shop.



Yeah, I was going to come down and demand my free "love" cake!


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 9, 2011)

helicopters overhead now... wierd - I can hear the kids playing in the playground and the choppers at the same time...


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

Yeah have the police actually been going round instructing people to shut up in Brixton?


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## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

just got sent home from work early. theres a nasty feel in the air in brixton again.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

kittyP said:


> Damn. I need to go to the shops. Should I go out now quickly then?



I would.  I've just put a stew in the slow cooker but off to shops to get milk and bread before they all shut, and need to get prescription urgently from chemist.  Getting a bit worried they're going to close


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

every shop from the tube station on up is shut. all the banks too.

john bishop on five live right now is priceless btw. he's sposed to be talking about his book or something but just said 'errrrm... whats the point, londons burrrning'

and is also very eloquent on what's going on.


----------



## billythefish (Aug 9, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Yeah have the police actually been going round instructing people to shut up in Brixton?


They have in the centre - at the Ritzy for example. Up Brixton Hill, it's mostly been personal SMS messages, and several shops have their shutters half down ready for a quick closure, but are still open in the mean time.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 9, 2011)

Too late. Just come back from Brixton to get some provisions and the police have been telling all businesses to shut up shop so I came back empty handed apart from 20 fags which I got just before the shop shutters came down.


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## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

jesus. 6 police vans just hooned up brixton hill. croydon?


----------



## Winot (Aug 9, 2011)

-Federation Coffee just tweeted that rumours are unfounded - nothing going on in Brixton.


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## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

20 cops just unloaded outside kfc


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## Kanda (Aug 9, 2011)

From Twitter:

*FederationCoffe* Federation Coffee 

Breaking News from #Brixton - NOTHING IS GOING ON! Unfounded Rumours scare shop owners, including all of @brixtonvillage into closing early


----------



## Kanda (Aug 9, 2011)

and another:

*FederationCoffe* Federation Coffee 

Police are NOT telling people to close, they are doing it on their own accord. Police I spoke to seem bemused. #Brixton #scaremongering


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## magneze (Aug 9, 2011)

There's so many rumours going around. Are the shops closing and streets being emptied unnecessarily? This potentially makes the situation much worse. Isn't a shop is much less likely to be looted if it's staffed and has customers in it.

Easy to say from home I guess. :-\


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## colacubes (Aug 9, 2011)

However, the Ritzy has been given police advice to close:

http://www.picturehouses.co.uk/cine...ma_Closed_Due_To_Riots/#.TkE9-ot7VPM.facebook


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## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

I thought rumours were meant for twitter and we were doing well at sticking to what we know for ourselves.


----------



## qosno1 (Aug 9, 2011)

Police car just went tearing down acre lane towards Brixton High St with Sirens on


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## jb78 (Aug 9, 2011)

ChrisFilter said:


> Looked a proper mess this morning. Saddest of all is that the nasty loan shop opposite Nandos was untouched.



Yeah they should have torched that. my flat is directly above it, along with my neighbours and their 2 yr old.

Good old armchair anarchy, huh.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

Friend who works for police says civilian police staff have been sent home. Not given a reason but she wonders that a lot of stations might be getting shut.

Also lots of police vans and groups of youths around elephant.  Shops still open in the mall though.


----------



## editor (Aug 9, 2011)

Currys are categorically stating that they're NOT closing their Brixton branch.


----------



## jezg (Aug 9, 2011)

Our Nursery off Acre Lane just called to say they are shutting/evacuating on police advice and we need to go and collect the little'un asap.


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Too late. Just come back from Brixton to get some provisions and the police have been telling all businesses to shut up shop so I came back empty handed apart from 20 fags which I got just before the shop shutters came down.



Just back from Brixton meself. Seems I made Tescos A/L with about 20 minutes to spare. Lidl was still open as were most of the shops from the timber yard and up. Weird atmosphere down here atm. Surprised to see the Tube is still open.


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## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

jb78 said:


> Yeah they should have torched that. my flat is directly above it, along with my neighbours and their 2 yr old.
> 
> Good old armchair anarchy, huh.



well except for its windows being smashed, yes it was untouched (do u mean the one on the corner of stockwell rd? - it got fucked over, maybe they repaired it already)


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## kittyP (Aug 9, 2011)

Didn't bother walking in to central Brixton if it was going to be futile for shopping.

Went to the shops where Tulse Hill starts and Effra Rd ends.
Brazas is still shut.
The Portugeezers (as we call them, the little cafe/grocers) has a smashed window from sunday.
All shops have their shutters half down and staff out the front looking concerned but loathed to close, understandably.
The offy on Brixton Water Lane is shutting now.

I got some ingredients for an apple crumble and fags  and the shop was packed with people discussing what was going on.

It def felt a little tense on the street but mostly people just being cautious.


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## blue nun (Aug 9, 2011)

I was in Morrisons (Butterfly walk Camberwell) a couple of hours ago and they had big stacks of wooden pallets inside the shop by the entrance & exits. I wondered if they were planning to use them as a barricade. As i got to the checkout an alarm sounded and staff rushed all the customers  out the exits shouting 'evacuate the building' It was alarming to say the least. I then saw lots of police vans/cars arriving at the Green. Thankfully a 45 was at the bus stop so jumped on and got out of there fast.


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## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

famous last words perhaps but i reckon brixton's gonna be ok tonight. there's about 5 times the number of cops out there as there was yesterday.


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

I'm struck by how differently I looked at people while out just now. As I came down from Tescos towards the Town Hall this guy comes up behind me and squeezes in between myself and a tree in order to cross the street. I move over and glance at him - he smiles and says _don't panic_.... I wasn't of course, but normally noone would say anything like that in such innocuous circumstances.


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## ChrisFilter (Aug 9, 2011)

jb78 said:


> Yeah they should have torched that. my flat is directly above it, along with my neighbours and their 2 yr old.
> 
> Good old armchair anarchy, huh.



Calm down, sunny jim. I posted that before it got really nasty. It was just a few smashed up shops then. And a smashed up loan shop is no bad thing.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 9, 2011)

I came back through Camberwell to see the florist boarding it's windows up, shops pulling shutters down with police cars and a helicopter approaching. The newsagents and the co-op on Camberwell New Road shut up too but the pub and the pattie shop were still serving the community.


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## teuchter (Aug 9, 2011)

I've just been up in West Norwood/Tulse Hill and lots of shops their with shutters down and anxious proprietors. The front of a money shop is caved in, looks like someone drove a car into it but I don't know when that happened. Boarded up windows on the pub outside Tulse Hill station.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 9, 2011)

teuchter said:


> I've just been up in West Norwood/Tulse Hill and lots of shops their with shutters down and anxious proprietors. The front of a money shop is caved in, looks like someone drove a car into it but I don't know when that happened. Boarded up windows on the pub outside Tulse Hill station.



I think the money shop in West Norwood was done last night.


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## paolo (Aug 9, 2011)

kittyP said:


> Didn't bother walking in to central Brixton if it was going to be futile for shopping.
> 
> Went to the shops where Tulse Hill starts and Effra Rd ends.
> Brazas is still shut.
> ...



I must have been there 10 mins before you. 

After picking up cigs and milk I popped over to the Brixton Hill side. About 2/3rds of shops already shut. Boards already inside the shuttering of the locksmith, and boards being sawn to size and put on the White Horse. The convenience stores are still open, but shutters are prepped to come down.

Strange atmosphere out there for sure. Lots of people - shopkeepers and locals - stood on the street looking up and down the hill.

On my street, much more pedestrian traffic than normal for a weekday afternoon. I assume it's people coming home early, or nipping out for last minute provisions.


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## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

It's all a bit self-perpetuating.  We read about all the stuff happening, get hyped, the shops hear stuff and close.  We see the shops closing and wonder what they know etc. etc.


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## happyshopper (Aug 9, 2011)

ChrisFilter said:


> Calm down, sunny jim.



Might I suggest that when you do or say something stupid that it's best to just own up to it and apologise. Being patronising and suggesting it's the other person's fault just makes you look like a idiot.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Aug 9, 2011)

happyshopper said:


> Might I suggest that when you do or say something stupid that it's best to just own up to it and apologise. Being patronising and suggesting it's the other person's fault just makes you look like a idiot.



I stand by what I said. At the time it was perfectly fine to make said quip, according to my moral compass. So get off your high horse!


----------



## Greebo (Aug 9, 2011)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I think the money shop in West Norwood was done last night.


The one with all the pawned jewellery in the window, you mean?  If so, yes, heard several different clusters of shoppers in Streatham talking about it.


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## Me76 (Aug 9, 2011)

I'm got sent home from work (Wandsworth) and am back home in West Norwood.  The BF went down to the pub and everything is closed.  Rumours were going around that 'yoots' were meeting in Norwood Park and Brockwell park apparently.  He said the high street was dead.

He is now in the one pub that is open but has all its blinds down and is pretending to be shut.


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## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

millions more cops steaming up the hill at the mo towards croydon


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## Chilavert (Aug 9, 2011)

Someone I work with said that Brockwell Park had been shut? An unsubstantiated rumour at the moment as I work in Westminster and have no idea what is happening South of the river....


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Aug 9, 2011)

Walked through about 10 minutes ago & the Lido was closed but Brockwell Park wasn't closed (or closing) at the point.

There were a couple of PCSO's chatting to the Park ranger though, I suppose it _could _have shut since then...


----------



## Badgers (Aug 9, 2011)

Ritzy signs state 'open as usual'


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## Kanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Badgers said:


> Ritzy signs state 'open as usual'



On the Listings board outside? That was up this morning.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Ritzy looked very shut around half three.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 9, 2011)

Someone posted earlier that someone they knew was watching a film at the Ritzy and it was stopped half way through and people were told to go home on police advice.  Ms Cupcake also posted to say that she had been told by the police to close up and head home, as had other shops along CHL.


----------



## editor (Aug 9, 2011)

Badgers said:


> Ritzy signs state 'open as usual'


The Ritzy is definitely closed: http://twitter.com/#!/Ritzycinema


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

phew...

about 12 black armoured 'dws police' vans just shot up the hill

whats that?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Well went to the Sainsbury's up Brixton Hill and busier than I've ever, ever seen it.  Heard one woman at the till saying she worked at King's College Hospital and all non-essential personnel had been told to go home.  Portuguese restaurants have their shutters down although were still open, and Green Market looked like it was opening up.  Went into chemist and some kid walked in and demanded a plaster for a tiny little cut on his finger.  Chemist was waiting to shut up but hadn't received instructions from his manager


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Fucking hell. 

Just counted at least 12 heavily armoured police vans heading up the Hill

and a straggler behind them

and another straggler a few minutes later


----------



## billythefish (Aug 9, 2011)

Brockwell Park definitely being closed - a friend living on the estate behind the Tulse Hill Tesco/Esso has just had the police van arrive to lock the gate.


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 9, 2011)

Just been booted out of the sand/water area in the park by the rangers.  They said "we don't mean to panic anyone but we're sealing off the area"... they also said not the park just that area and the playground is still going strong - so a bit odd.


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## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

Reading the papers, it looks like we're edging toward the use of  water cannon and/or plastic bullets.


----------



## timothysutton1 (Aug 9, 2011)

BBC News...
17:32 -The IPCC says the Forensic Science Service has also confirmed that the bullet lodged in a police radio was police issue and consistent with being fired from a police gun.

17:29 -The Independent Police Complaints commission says ballistic test results so far show no evidence that a handgun found at the scene of the fatal police shooting of Mark Duggan had been fired. It says the Forensic Science Service is carrying out further tests to confirm this.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 9, 2011)

Irrelevant to the looting.


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## Badgers (Aug 9, 2011)

Ritzy signs state 'open as usual' but it is closed. 

Brockwell Park was open 15 minutes ago


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## Me76 (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> Reading the papers, it looks like we're edging toward the use of water cannon and/or plastic bullets.



Well it won't be water cannons unless we get them from somewhere as mainland UK doesn't have any.  The nearest are in NI and they seem to be using them at the mo. Would take about 10 hours to get them over according to my army mate.


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## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

If  Duggan looked as if he was about to fire a gun whether the bullet in the radio came from a police gun is a bit irrelevant.


----------



## tomapep (Aug 9, 2011)

Sirens going up Tulse Hill just now.


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## Megan40450 (Aug 9, 2011)

Me76 said:


> Well it won't be water cannons unless we get them from somewhere as mainland UK doesn't have any. The nearest are in NI and they seem to be using them at the mo. Would take about 10 hours to get them over according to my army mate.



Aren't water cannons for crowd dispersal? Not really the right tool for this situation, I wouldn't have thought, anyway.


----------



## Me76 (Aug 9, 2011)

yeah - I think some one else on one of the threads said they would be useless in the kind of situations that have been happening.  People would just run to a different area and the cannons would take ages to catch up.


----------



## nashers21 (Aug 9, 2011)

Is Sainsburys up on the hill still open? I phone Tesco Acre Lane on my way home who told me they were open but when I got there everything shuttered up, I am running seriously low on provisions!


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> Reading the papers, it looks like we're edging toward the use of water cannon and/or plastic bullets.



Unusual sense from a copper, hope someone in charge takes his advice:



> Orde, one of the only officers in the UK to have deployed plastic bullets, has spoken out against their use in London.​He told me he does not see circumstances in which they should be used on the streets of London to quell the rioting seen over the last three days.​
> As chief constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, Orde - now president of Acpo - has used plastic bullets and water cannon against rioters.​But he told The Guardian: "I do not think it would be sensible in any way shape or form to deploy water canon or baton rounds in London. Baton rounds are very serious bits of equipment. I would only deploy them in life threatening situations where my officers were under live fire, bombs or massive petrol bombs.​
> "What is happening in London is not an insurgency that is going to topple the country. There are 8 million people in London and it is a tiny proportion doing this. They are gangs of looters and criminals and although it is concerning it has to be kept in proportion. "​


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

nashers21 said:


> Is Sainsburys up on the hill still open? I phone Tesco Acre Lane on my way home who told me they were open but when I got there everything shuttered up, I am running seriously low on provisions!



It was when I was there around 2 hours ago and I asked one of the staff what time they were open 'til and she said as far as she knew 11.00pm unless they're told to close earlier


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## nashers21 (Aug 9, 2011)

Thanks


Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It was when I was there around 2 hours ago and I asked one of the staff what time they were open 'til and she said as far as she knew 11.00pm unless they're told to close earlier


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## nashers21 (Aug 9, 2011)

Just called them and they have told me they are closed in case anyone is thinking of heading up there!


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## story (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> just got sent home from work early. theres a nasty feel in the air in brixton again.


 
I thought it was all rather friendly when I was out at about 3 pm.


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## gaijingirl (Aug 9, 2011)

Brazas_ Brazas Restaurant  

We have opened our doors and would like to see many more ppl on this street do the same. Keep safe everyone.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

nashers21 said:


> Just called them and they have told me they are closed in case anyone is thinking of heading up there!



Glad I got up there before it shut then.  I had a feeling it would shut early, didn't anticipate this early though


----------



## story (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I'm struck by how differently I looked at people while out just now. As I came down from Tescos towards the Town Hall this guy comes up behind me and squeezes in between myself and a tree in order to cross the street. I move over and glance at him - he smiles and says _don't panic_.... I wasn't of course, but normally noone would say anything like that in such innocuous circumstances.


 
I was looking across the road, trying to see if Sainsbury's was open and a friendly fella stopped to ask if I was wondering about Sainsbury's, yes, it was open but operating a one-out-one-in policy.

Lots of people wanting to stop and chat all over Brixton.


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> Brazas_ Brazas Restaurant
> 
> We have opened our doors and would like to see many more ppl on this street do the same. Keep safe everyone.



I've opened my doors - im on the second floor tho.. 

off out there for a beer and play some guitar in the brixton sun


----------



## story (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> Reading the papers, it looks like we're edging toward the use of water cannon and/or plastic bullets.




But some of those kids on the street are... well, just kids. Are they really proposing to water-cannon and plastic-bullet youngsters?


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## tendril (Aug 9, 2011)

Dare I post.....


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

story said:


> But some of those kids on the street are... well, just kids. Are they really proposing to water-cannon and plastic-bullet youngsters?



Have had that discussion with someone today.  Using water cannon and plastic bullets and batons on kids is only going to cause uproar, despite everyone wanting an end to this.  Seems like the police have been treading on eggshells for fear of hurting kids.  Fucked if they do, fucked if they don't


----------



## tendril (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Have had that discussion with someone today. Using water cannon and plastic bullets and batons on kids is only going to cause uproar, despite everyone wanting an end to this. Seems like the police have been treading on eggshells for fear of hurting kids. Fucked if they do, fucked if they don't


Maybe we need....


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

tendril said:


> Maybe we need....



I already suggested using these and lobbing them into the nearest River to dampen their looting enthusiasm


----------



## Chilavert (Aug 9, 2011)

How fucking depressing to see all the shops closed and the police on the street. On the plus side the Elm Park Tavern is still open. Also does anyone want to drop a 4 pack of Sagres round to Leander Road?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Chilavert said:


> How fucking depressing to see all the shops closed and the police on the street. On the plus side the Elm Park Tavern is still open. Also does anyone want to drop a 4 pack of Sacred round to Leander Road?



What about the shops?  They closed in the '85 riots


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Aug 9, 2011)

Went back to Brockwell Park & just left 5 mins ago (via the Lido exit) & its still full of joggers / families / sunbathers / people walking home, perfectly normal vibe.  Maybe a bit quieter than normal but perfectly chilled.
(Though Lido itself closed with PCSO's sat outside).


----------



## Chilavert (Aug 9, 2011)

I was only 7 then Minnie! I know its happened before, but to see it myself was depressing.


----------



## The KGB (Aug 9, 2011)

The Twittermill has rumour's all over it about West Norwood tonight. So fingers crossed for our  Southern neighbours. . . This information came from my dentist. He's quite tapped in apparently.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Chilavert said:


> I was only 7 then Minnie! I know its happened before, but to see it myself was depressing.



It's not less depressing even if you have seen it before


----------



## netbob (Aug 9, 2011)

This thread has become the best bell weather about if anything is going on or not. If people are arguing about causation and quoting stats all is quiet


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 9, 2011)

The KGB said:


> The Twittermill has rumour's all over it about West Norwood tonight. So fingers crossed for our Southern neighbours. . . This information came from my dentist. He's quite tapped in apparently.


who's your dentist?

cos this sounds like bollocks. Rumour spreading like this really doesn't help.

Welcome to urban by the way. But if you're a pisstaker we'll get you pretty quick...


----------



## Kanda (Aug 9, 2011)

Saino's on the hill was shut at 6pm. Tesco NPR closed at 6pm. Happy shopper shut, billa's shut. Everything shut up here but Pizza man, the hand and the sultan.

Pizza man doing a roaring trade


----------



## Greebo (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What about the shops? They closed in the '85 riots


All of them (on Elm Park) were still open this morning Minnie, Elm Park Dairy was doing its usual brisk Tuesday trade.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Greebo said:


> All of them (on Elm Park) were still open this morning Minnie, Elm Park Dairy was doing its usual brisk Tuesday trade.



Ah, it's ok, I went up to Sainsburys on Brixton Hill (now shut), but handy to know what is open.  Busy little shop that innit, and she won't put up with any nonsense from schoolkids.  (Hope none of them bear a grudge )


----------



## The KGB (Aug 9, 2011)

Unique Dental Care in Tulse Hill.


----------



## sidkipper (Aug 9, 2011)

just passed through Brixton centre, all quiet and shut. Notable police presence on most corners.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

Not too many sirens so far. Black riot vans went up the hill about 6, then about 7-10 vans inc black riot vans came back down about 7 at a leisurely pace.

Just been speaking to someone who said that the word on the street is it's due to kick off in Brixton at 8pm.  I am sceptical.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Not too many sirens so far. Black riot vans went up the hill about 6, then about 7-10 vans inc black riot vans came back down about 7 at a leisurely pace.
> 
> Just been speaking to someone who said that the word on the street is it's due to kick off in Brixton at 8pm. I am sceptical.



I've seen that rumour as well


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

Are you sceptical as well?


----------



## peterkro (Aug 9, 2011)

memespring said:


> This thread has become the best bell weather about if anything is going on or not. If people are arguing about causation and quoting stats all is quiet


FFS, Bellwether,my anger therapist warned me this would happen.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Are you sceptical as well?



Hard to tell really.  I've also seen talk that it's become a bit of a competition amongst the youth and Brixton has now been pushed into the background by bigger events.  The little scrotes might not like that.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

memespring said:


> This thread has become the best bell weather about if anything is going on or not. If people are arguing about causation and quoting stats all is quiet



I am RIGHT!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Hard to tell really. I've also seen talk that it's become a bit of a competition amongst the youth and Brixton has now been pushed into the background by bigger events. The little scrotes might not like that.



On the other hand, Croydon's only a bus ride away for a lot of them, some maybe they'll head up to where the "action" is


----------



## ajdown (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Hard to tell really. I've also seen talk that it's become a bit of a competition amongst the youth and Brixton has now been pushed into the background by bigger events. The little scrotes might not like that.



I think this is one of the problems, particularly when it's groups of gangs putting aside their rivalries to go out and cause havoc.  They hear that someone from gang A has just chucked something through a shop window, so gang B decide to go one up and loot another shop.  Gang C hear of it and decide to set fire to a car to outdo gang B.  Gang A hear about this and decide to set fire to a shop or something, and so it goes on.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

Can anyone tell me whether Brixton Tesco or the mini-Sainsbury on the High Road are open.


----------



## metal13 (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> Can anyone tell me whether Brixton Tesco or the mini-Sainsbury on the High Road are open.


Tesco on Acre Ln is closed.


----------



## dozi (Aug 9, 2011)

Maybe the answer is, like china does with facebook, just shut down the mobile network, that would surely pull the plug on the little shits.


----------



## sidkipper (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> Can anyone tell me whether Brixton Tesco or the mini-Sainsbury on the High Road are open.


Think they're both shut, the Nisa half way up the hill was open 20 mins ago, but ready to shut at a moments notice. The offy on Elm Park is also open.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

dozi said:


> Maybe the answer is, like china does with facebook, just shut down the mobile network, that would surely pull the plug on the little shits.



As well as the more than 99.99% that have nothing to do with this. FFS any more moronic ideas?


----------



## Ms T (Aug 9, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> Brazas_ Brazas Restaurant
> 
> We have opened our doors and would like to see many more ppl on this street do the same. Keep safe everyone.



I kind of agree with this.  It feels like the rioters have won for the time being.  I was in Brixton centre for the first time today at around 5.30 since the trouble on Sunday night and was quite shocked by the damage.  You can smell the burning as you go up the escalator in the tube, and noone's made any attempt yet to clear up at WHSmith or Carphone Warehouse.


----------



## nashers21 (Aug 9, 2011)

Both are shut


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## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

Thanks. I need to go for provisions.

The BBC just said that there is no trouble in London right now. The looters in the Midlands seem to be going for it.


----------



## alcopop (Aug 9, 2011)

The Florence pub on dulwich road  is open.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

alcopop said:


> The Florence pub on dulwich road is open.



Shame it's so shit.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 9, 2011)

It's all about Manchester tonight apparently.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> Thanks. I need to go for provisions.
> 
> The BBC just said that there is no trouble in London right now. The looters in the Midlands seem to be going for it.



A friend of mine in Custom House posted this earlier on Facebook: "Riot Police in full riot gear and rioters in a face of outside my very door. Police seem to have it under control meantime shops closed. The gangs set a barrier of bins across the road in front of my House they were carying wooden batons. Riot Police took control, still there. Crazy"

No updates from him for about an hour.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 9, 2011)

Khans is open and so is the Hoot


----------



## Ms T (Aug 9, 2011)

ajdown said:


> A friend of mine in Custom House posted this earlier on Facebook: "Riot Police in full riot gear and rioters in a face of outside my very door. Police seem to have it under control meantime shops closed. The gangs set a barrier of bins across the road in front of my House they were carying wooden batons. Riot Police took control, still there. Crazy"
> 
> No updates from him for about an hour.



Where's Custom House?


----------



## editor (Aug 9, 2011)

Ms T said:


> Where's Custom House?


East London near Canning Town.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=cus...98,0.030084&sspn=0.009095,0.020771&gl=uk&z=15


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Aug 9, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Can someone set fire to the Santander branch pls? Or just cause at least £150's worth of damage.



Sounds like a custodial.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 9, 2011)

The KGB said:


> Unique Dental Care in Tulse Hill.


But who is your dentist?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 9, 2011)

My mate just txt me that he saw someone peeling a banana in a really aggressive way outside Herne Hill Station.....A policeman stood nearby did fuck all about it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Nanker Phelge said:


> My mate just txt me that he saw someone peeling a banana in a really aggressive way outside Herne Hill Station.....A policeman stood nearby did fuck all about it.



I'm sure when the policeman slips on the banana skin there'll be all hell to pay


----------



## ajdown (Aug 9, 2011)

Nanker Phelge said:


> My mate just txt me that he saw someone peeling a banana in a really aggressive way outside Herne Hill Station.....A policeman stood nearby did fuck all about it.



Send the bastards 'ome.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Nanker Phelge said:


> My mate just txt me that he saw someone peeling a banana in a really aggressive way outside Herne Hill Station.....A policeman stood nearby did fuck all about it.



Did he squeeze the bottom of the banana like a filthy little monkey?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

I was in West End all day. The Police were advising some offices to go home early. Some of the Banks closed early. There were a lot of Police around the West End all day.

I was told it got quite nasty in Hackney last night. The rioters were also attacking passers by so some people I know stayed in.

I was told by several people that the Turkish shopkeepers decided to stay open. They armed themselves with baseball bats and meat cleavers. They told the rioters to bring it on and they backed off. I was told the Turkish shops did stay open and they were the only ones that did.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I was in West End all day. The Police were advising some offices to go home early. Some of the Banks closed early. There were a lot of Police around the West End all day.
> 
> I was told it got quite nasty in Hackney last night. The rioters were also attacking passers by so some people I know stayed in.
> 
> I was told by several people that the Turkish shopkeepers decided to stay open. They armed themselves with baseball bats and meat cleavers. They told the rioters to bring it on and they backed off. I was told the Turkish shops did stay open and they were the only ones that did.



Good for them, althouh no doubt they'd be the ones who ended up in court if they ended up using their weapons


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

You don't fuck with the Turks, Gramsci.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/a-society-of-looters

Letters from MPs John McDonnel and Kaufman

Haven't the warnings been there, from as wide a range of people from Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett to Rowan Williams? We are reaping what has been sown over the last three decades of creating a grotesquely unequal society with an ethos of grab as much as you can by any means. A society of looters created with MPs and their expenses, bankers and their bonuses, tax-evading corporations, hacking journalists, bribe-taking police officers, and now a group of alienated kids are seizing their chance. This is not to condone but to understand. Addressing inequality is the only way we can avoid a rerun of these riots.
*John McDonnell MP*
_Labour, Hayes and Harlington _
• If this government implements bigoted policies of social exclusion – deliberate creation of unemployment, ending of education maintenance allowance, dumping of Sure Start, attacks on social housing tenancies et al – then a small but violent minority of those excluded may turn to other ways of being noticed. And the huge police cuts mean that the riots are even more difficult to deal with.
*Gerald Kaufman MP*
_Labour, Manchester Gorton_
• The rioters are only doing to the high street what the bankers did to the country. Unlike the bankers, the rioters will no doubt be held to account.
*Siôn Jones*


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Did he squeeze the bottom of the banana like a filthy little monkey?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> You don't fuck with the Turks, Gramsci.



I know a few Turks. Nice people. But u dont mess with the Sons of Ataturk Remember Gallipoli

I notice this was also reported in the Standard today. I heard it from several people who live in North East London independently of each other. So I reckon its not just a rumour. Bit embarassing for the Cops that people had to take the law into there own hands.

Its a bit scary as this is potentially causing divisions between different minority groups.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 9, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> • The rioters are only doing to the high street what the bankers did to the country. Unlike the bankers, the rioters will no doubt be held to account.
> *Siôn Jones*


Absolutely. The last few days are nothing compared to destruction and violence wreaked on the people by the banks and the Government.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

Boris gets heckled:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/aug/09/boris-johnson-heckled-riot-clapham-junction-video


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 9, 2011)

On a brighter note, my builder neighbour has made a mint today boarding up shops with massive sheets of chipboard


----------



## sparkybird (Aug 9, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/a-society-of-looters
> 
> • If this government implements bigoted policies of social exclusion – deliberate creation of unemployment, ending of education maintenance allowance, dumping of Sure Start, attacks on social housing tenancies et al – then a small but violent minority of those excluded may turn to other ways of being noticed. And the huge police cuts mean that the riots are even more difficult to deal with.
> *Gerald Kaufman MP*
> ...


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

Someone sent me this as the new way to get around London


----------



## editor (Aug 9, 2011)

If only I'd invested in glazing.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

@Sparkybird
I agree with them these two MPs. These MPs McDonnel and Kaufman views are totally different to Tessa Jowels and Steve Reeds. Its not using it for there own political ends.


----------



## Emet (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Good for them, althouh no doubt they'd be the ones who ended up in court if they ended up using their weapons


The Guardian said that the police asked them to do nothing but didn't act when, armed with knives, they chased the looters off.


----------



## pk (Aug 9, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Its a bit scary as this is potentially causing divisions between different minority groups.



The REAL working class versus the scrotes. Bring it on.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Emet said:


> The Guardian said that the police asked them to do nothing but didn't act when, armed with knives, they chased the looters off.



Yes, but they didn't actually hit any of them did they?  Would probably have been a different story if they'd actually used their baseball bats (although I'd quite happily turn a blind eye)


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Nanker Phelge said:


>



Yes, it probably is.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> On a brighter note, my builder neighbour has made a mint today boarding up shops with massive sheets of chipboard



Timber yards and builders all over London making a mint I reckon. Good for them then.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Aug 9, 2011)

so, in conclusion, no serious rioting anywhere in London this evening? Hackney was quiet, bit tense like when I went out earlier.


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

about 5 kids getting arrested at the brixton bus stop at the moment after objecting to being (pretty roughly) searched. one girl in particular seems to be giving them hell


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> about 5 kids getting arrested at the brixton bus stop at the moment after objecting to being (pretty roughly) searched. one girl in particular seems to be giving them hell



Go and have a listen and report back


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

i can hear from here 

i actually feel for the cops. they're gettin a torrent from the young ladies there.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> so, in conclusion, no serious rioting anywhere in London this evening? Hackney was quiet, bit tense like when I went out earlier.



Nothing so far I believe.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> i can hear from here
> 
> i actually feel for the cops. they're gettin a torrent from the young ladies there.



How's the conversation playing out then?


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2011)

just one question, are a\ll the Brixton based posters OK? Has there been a round-up?


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> How's the conversation playing out then?



fuck cunt fuck cunt fuck cunt cunt fuck cunt fuck


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> fuck cunt fuck cunt fuck cunt cunt fuck cunt fuck



oh, not the most interesting argument then!


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

um. has a sound system just started in windrush square? can hear big bass and see people dancing.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> just one question, are a\ll the Brixton based posters OK? Has there been a round-up?



Haven't heard anything to suggest otherwise. Of course I don't know all or even most of Brixtonites' nicks.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> just one question, are a\ll the Brixton based posters OK? Has there been a round-up?



As far as I know yes.Thanks for asking.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Fine up this end of Brixton


----------



## colacubes (Aug 9, 2011)

All good in the hood in the centre


----------



## ajdown (Aug 9, 2011)

I'm up near the top of the hill, a little way back from the A23, and apart from the occasional vehicle sound (which is infrequent) it's actually wierdly silent, so much so in fact I can hear the leaves on the trees rustling.  It almost feels like I'm in the countryside tonight out there.


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 9, 2011)

very very quiet by the park..


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

Yes the shops are closing early at the moment.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 9, 2011)

Loads of sirens at the bottom of the Hill but other than that... quiet. Must be headed somewhere else.


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

quite a big gathering of dancing people in windrush square.

and. i daresay. fucking FIREPOI.

there is no excuse for fucking firepoi. a red card offence.


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 9, 2011)

An Afro-beatish band called "United Vibrations" is playing on Windrush Square according their tweet. 

 "UV Playing in Brixton - Windrush Square NOW! Head over if you're in the area. Peace."

https://twitter.com/#!/UnitedVibration/statuses/101036082619088897


----------



## ajdown (Aug 9, 2011)

They sound quite good actually - http://www.myspace.com/unitedvibrations


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> quite a big gathering of dancing people in windrush square.
> 
> and. i daresay. fucking FIREPOI.
> 
> there is no excuse for fucking firepoi. a red card offence.


 
Photos


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

firepoi. jesus. the police are right there and doing nothing about this.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

Apart from the firepoi this is a good idea.  Confuse the police.  Is it civil disobedience?  What to do, what to do?


----------



## girasol (Aug 9, 2011)

Better 1 hippie in windrush square than 100 rioters in the high street 

Peace indeed!


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

We* should all get out there and have nice polite civilly disobedient dancing fun.

*By which I mean 'you'.  I'm in a dressing gown.


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

im gonna start a fucking riot of my own if this carries on much longer. firepoi is inexcusable. there's probably jugglers down there too.

wheres my pickaxe.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

If there be hacky-sack I'm bringing my machete.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> im gonna start a fucking riot of my own if this carries on much longer. firepoi is inexcusable. there's probably jugglers down there too.
> 
> wheres my pickaxe.



but are they being noisy?  Would you prefer the helicopter?


----------



## colacubes (Aug 9, 2011)

I was thinking of going.  But I hate poi.  And firepoi is 10 times worse


----------



## dozi (Aug 9, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I know a few Turks. Nice people. But u dont mess with the Sons of Ataturk Remember Gallipoli
> 
> I notice this was also reported in the Standard today. I heard it from several people who live in North East London independently of each other. So I reckon its not just a rumour. Bit embarassing for the Cops that people had to take the law into there own hands.
> 
> Its a bit scary as this is potentially causing divisions between different minority groups.


 
Its a bit scary as this is potentially causing divisions between different minority groups.[/quote]
Took one of our musicians back to Peckham, and driving back to South Norwood listening to a guy in Enfield on LBC describe how there is hundreds of people who had gathered to protect their neighbourhood, he said that he found it worrying as the crowd is 99% male and as far as he can see100% white, there seemed to be a distinct leaning towards them looking out for anyone not white to have a little chat with. As I am not there I can't say that this is true, but I have no reason to doubt that it could be, and I find it very worrying.


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

there is currently a drum solo happening. with firepoi.

seriously.

im sorting this shit out. dont worry everyone.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Sic the TSG on them!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> there is currently a drum solo happening. with firepoi.
> 
> seriously.
> 
> im sorting this shit out. dont worry everyone.



You going to go over there and sort 'em out then?  Get the police to arrest them for disturbing your peace


----------



## 1%er (Aug 9, 2011)

Is it true that residents of Brixton are out on the streets cleaning up?

2314: Brixton reports that all is quiet except for the residents’ cleanup operation there.


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

im on it


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

1%er said:


> Is it true that residents of Brixton are out on the streets cleaning up?
> 
> 2314: Brixton reports that all is quiet except for the residents’ cleanup operation there.



I don't think so. Someone's probably got confused about that lot on the Square


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> im on it


 
Dancing already?


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

sharpening scissors. donning balaclava.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You going to go over there and sort 'em out then? Get the police to arrest them for disturbing your peace



I'm going to get the police to arrest the police for disturbing my peace.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> I'm going to get the police to arrest the police for disturbing my peace.



and when they chuck themselves in their cells, get their helicopter to hover over them


----------



## Winot (Aug 9, 2011)

Nice night out at the theatre in West End and then spookily quiet bike ride back to Brixton.  Slightly exciting.


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

it does in all fairness look kinda fun down there


----------



## Greebo (Aug 9, 2011)

1%er said:


> Is it true that residents of Brixton are out on the streets cleaning up?<snip>


They're like totally cleaning the vibes man...


----------



## 1%er (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I don't think so. Someone's probably got confused about that lot on the Square


That's a shame, I think local people would have a "better" effect than the police.

I just heard a womam on the radio saying that they are playing music outside a community centre in Brixton in an effort to claim things down


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Do they have their crystals out?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

1%er said:


> That's a shame, I think local people would have a "better" effect than the police.
> 
> I just heard a womam on the radio saying that they are playing music outside a community centre in Brixton in an effort to claim things down



Go back a few posts to find out what's really happening.  (gabi's doing a strip on the Square)


----------



## gabi (Aug 9, 2011)

i just heard a massive cheer go up. the crowd's got kinda big.

fuck it. im puttin on my shorts and going down.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Do they have their crystals out?


If they have, I may feel the urge to lay hands on them - in a non healing way.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> i just heard a massive cheer go up. the crowd's got kinda big.
> 
> fuck it. im puttin on my shorts and going down.



I just told 1% you were taking them off.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> i just heard a massive cheer go up. the crowd's got kinda big.
> 
> fuck it. im puttin on my shorts and going down.



UpDATES!


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

I'd go down.  If I was someone else.


----------



## eme (Aug 9, 2011)

@gabi - & pics too


----------



## Belushi (Aug 9, 2011)

I'd have got of the bus if I'd known what was going on.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2011)

Is it worth me getting out of the flat for this?


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Course it is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2011)

editor said:


> Is it worth me getting out of the flat for this?


not really, no


----------



## colacubes (Aug 10, 2011)

editor said:


> Is it worth me getting out of the flat for this?



I was thinking about it but FIREPOI ffs   I'm going to bed instead.


----------



## klaustus (Aug 10, 2011)

From Twitter: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





A much better image of Brixton I think.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> not really, no


What do you know about it?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 10, 2011)

Looks excellent!   Note that the tweeter has avoided getting firepoi in the pic to avoid negative comments.


----------



## paolo (Aug 10, 2011)

Tempted to nip down.

(Fire poi is *awful*, but loving the Brixton vibe right now. Lots of good feeling on the street tonight, talking to randoms)


----------



## gabi (Aug 10, 2011)

its fuckin rocking.


----------



## gabi (Aug 10, 2011)

about 50 cops just sprinted thru up acre lane tho


----------



## paolo (Aug 10, 2011)

gabi said:


> its fuckin rocking.



K. On my way.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2011)

gabi said:


> about 50 cops just sprinted thru up acre lane tho


Maybe they're rushing off to get their flashing blue poi?


----------



## paolo (Aug 10, 2011)

gabi said:


> about 50 cops just sprinted thru up acre lane tho



Happy to chance it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 10, 2011)

gabi said:


> its fuckin rocking.



pics or vids


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

gabi said:


> about 50 cops just sprinted thru up acre lane tho



Coming on Twitter as well, hearing sirens. Is it kicking off?


----------



## Spark (Aug 10, 2011)

No idea what firepoi is but its nice down here. Quite a lot of people. Even the bunch of cops by KFC disbursed. There was a quick burst of police running down acre lane followed by sirens,  then all calmed down again.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2011)

Pics or STFU


----------



## Spark (Aug 10, 2011)

Have taken some but not sure how to upload direct to urban from phone


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Pic from Ritzy gig






Bigger version here http://twitpic.com/63n7dl


----------



## Emet (Aug 10, 2011)

A fire engine just came up Railton Road and turned  into Barnwell Road.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2011)

Bloody helicopter's back.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Cock... just as I was gonna tuck myself in.


----------



## gabi (Aug 10, 2011)

ok no more firepoi. this is fucking awesome. respect


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Still going?


----------



## gabi (Aug 10, 2011)

yeh


----------



## metal13 (Aug 10, 2011)

gabi said:


> yeh


So tempting...but I do have to get up for work in a few hours!


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 10, 2011)

tell them to start earlier tomorrow.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 10, 2011)

Shortish and darkish video on this site

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2hqurt5&s=7


----------



## paolo (Aug 10, 2011)

Cheers gabi. Got down for it.

I'm going to sound cheesy, but it felt like a Brixton moment. Reclaiming the streets.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

1999 called...


----------



## bluestreak (Aug 10, 2011)

wish i'd read this earlier, i'd have wandered down meself.  was very quiet when i was in brixton at 9.30pm.  if i'd known there were gonna be bands...


----------



## Emet (Aug 10, 2011)

Something seems to be happening in Herne Hill, or beyond. A fire engine and four full police vans went south along Railton Road.


----------



## paolo (Aug 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> 1999 called...



I know.

My answering machine is so old.


----------



## hassan (Aug 10, 2011)

What's a firepoi? How do you even pronounce it fire-poy?


----------



## ajdown (Aug 10, 2011)

hassan said:


> What's a firepoi? How do you even pronounce it fire-poy?



I hope this doesnt get me banned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IjdnMvBW_A


----------



## Badgers (Aug 10, 2011)

Sounds like a good night in Brixton then


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2011)

editor said:


> What do you know about it?


nothing. but i don't think it's worth getting out of your flat for.


----------



## timothysutton1 (Aug 10, 2011)

Interesting map project:

http://brixton811.crowdmap.com/main


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

gabi said:


> there is currently a drum solo happening. with firepoi.
> 
> seriously.



read over posts properly. looks like it was ok night then


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

If I was in Enfield or Dalston (white or a Turk) I would have done the same. Its worrying but Im not going to criticize people for defending there communities.

Also Ive been told by someone who lives near Dalston just now that the rioters were mixed (white and black) group of young people- teenagers really.


----------



## nagapie (Aug 10, 2011)

I've been out of London all week and this sounded very scary. Sadly it doesn't surprise me, you can only allow young men to kill themselves for so long before it spills over and explodes.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

It got more scary as it went on. Just read that a man in 40s was critically ill after been attacked after he tried to put a fire in a bin out in Ealing. They have been starting to attack individuals.

Ive been in contact with people in London I know calming them down. A lot of people come to London from from abroad to learn English and this is all a bit of a shock for them.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> It got more scary as it went on. Just read that a man in 40s was critically ill after been attacked after he tried to put a fire in a bin out in Ealing. They have been starting to attack individuals.


Three young kids beating fuck out of an old guy. Cowardly, pathetic cunts.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 10, 2011)

According to the Grauniad a looter on a mobility scooter got trapped in the 3 mobile shop in Streatham when the security shutters came down http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/10/manchester-riots-uk-disorder-day-four-live#block-26


----------



## kittyP (Aug 10, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> An Afro-beatish band called "United Vibrations" is playing on Windrush Square according their tweet.
> 
> "UV Playing in Brixton - Windrush Square NOW! Head over if you're in the area. Peace."
> 
> https://twitter.com/#!/UnitedVibration/statuses/101036082619088897



Damn! I wish I had seen this last night.
Would have gone down for a solidarity boogie


----------



## colacubes (Aug 10, 2011)

Belushi said:


> According to the Grauniad a looter on a mobility scooter got trapped in the 3 mobile shop in Streatham when the security shutters came down http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/10/manchester-riots-uk-disorder-day-four-live#block-26



That is genius


----------



## ajdown (Aug 10, 2011)

There hasn't been a great deal to smile about over the last few days... but that story did make me chuckle.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 10, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Cheers gabi. Got down for it.
> 
> I'm going to sound cheesy, but it felt like a Brixton moment. Reclaiming the streets.



 I so wish I had know. Would have loved to have gone.

Well done Brixton.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 10, 2011)

kittyP said:


> I so wish I had know. Would have loved to have gone.
> 
> Well done Brixton.


It was definitely worth heading over for. Friendly, peaceful vibe and lots of smiling!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 10, 2011)

timothysutton1 said:


> Interesting map project:
> 
> http://brixton811.crowdmap.com/main





Good news spots


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 10, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Good news spots


 
It's not showing the band playing last night.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 10, 2011)

Belushi said:


> According to the Grauniad a looter on a mobility scooter got trapped in the 3 mobile shop in Streatham when the security shutters came down http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/10/manchester-riots-uk-disorder-day-four-live#block-26





Wonder if he'd nicked the scooter though?


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 10, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> It's not showing the band playing last night.



It is.. you have to click on "Yellow" for good news...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 10, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> It's not showing the band playing last night.



It does, but the "incidents" are all marked with red spots.  Just zoom in to the area and click on the red dot.


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 10, 2011)

This is where i got the info from last night. The good news (ie free cupcakes/band playing) are represented with yellow spots. Or you can choose all categories - red spots.  It's easier to do the former to find the band etc...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 10, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> This is where i got the info from last night. The good news (ie free cupcakes/band playing) are represented with yellow spots. Or you can choose all categories - red spots. It's easier to do the former to find the band etc...



Yeah, just clicking on the yellow dots is easier as there's only 5 of them


----------



## ajdown (Aug 10, 2011)

One of my favourite riot pictures so far - Bananaman and Captain America protecting a furniture shop in Manchester.


----------



## stevebradley (Aug 10, 2011)

A 31yr old employee of Stockwell Primary School pleaded guilty to looting in court today.

Lives in Battersea and works in Stockwell/Brixton, but was caught looting Richer Sounds in Croydon !? Also lives with his mum.

Other occupations listed for those pleading guilty last night included a number of university graduates, apprentices, a graphic designer, an army recruit, a forklift driver and a social worker.

So much for the theory that it was people with no hope lashing out at society. Pure opportunistic theft and recreational thuggery was the order of the day.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> A 31yr old employee of Stockwell Primary School pleaded guilty to looting in court today.
> 
> Lives in Battersea and works in Stockwell/Brixton, but was caught looting Richer Sounds in Croydon !? Also lives with his mum.
> 
> ...



Things just happen for no reason do they? History means nothing? FFS, no wonder Lambeth is going down the pan with numpties like yourself behind the wheel.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 10, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> A 31yr old employee of Stockwell Primary School pleaded guilty to looting in court today.
> 
> Lives in Battersea and works in Stockwell/Brixton, but was caught looting Richer Sounds in Croydon !? Also lives with his mum.
> 
> ...



In a situation like this you will get all sorts jumping on the bandwagon.


----------



## stevebradley (Aug 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Things just happen for no reason do they? History means nothing? FFS, no wonder Lambeth is going down the pan with numpties like yourself behind the wheel.



I didn't say things don't happen for a reason. There are deep soietal problems when grown adults with jobs, good educations and prospects choose to go out and indulge in looting miles from where they live and work.

But to sweep over everything as beinga case of those with nothing to loose lashing out is clearly not the whole story. Hurling personal abuse at me doesn't alter the facts behind some of those up in court.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> I didn't say things don't happen for a reason. There are deep soietal problems when grown adults with jobs, good educations and prospects choose to go out and indulge in looting miles from where they live and work.
> 
> But to sweep over everything as beinga case of those with nothing to loose lashing out is clearly not the whole story. Hurling personal abuse at me doesn't alter the facts behind some of those up in court.



No you didn't, but skirting over the history and context, and merely labelling this as thuggery and wanton looting does nothing but play into the hang'em flog'em brigade. And it's a fact that Lambeth has been the plaything of NuLab for a long long time now, you can't really blame the Tories for the misguided governance and contiunuing downward spiralling of this borough. That's why I called you and your colleagues numpties.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 10, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> I didn't say things don't happen for a reason. There are deep soietal problems when grown adults with jobs, good educations and prospects choose to go out and indulge in looting miles from where they live and work.
> 
> But to sweep over everything as beinga case of those with nothing to loose lashing out is clearly not the whole story. Hurling personal abuse at me doesn't alter the facts behind some of those up in court.



Your right, it is not the whole story but I strongly suspect that the employed adults that were involved in this mess were very few and far between in the grand scheme of things.
It doesn't take away from the fact that youth social disaffection had a major part to play in how and why this all came about.
A few exceptions to a rule does not change anything.


----------



## stevebradley (Aug 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> No you didn't, but skirting over the history and context, and merely labelling this as thuggery and wanton looting does nothing but play into the hang'em flog'em brigade. And it's a fact that Lambeth has been the plaything of NuLab for a long long time now, you can't really blame the Tories for the misguided governance and contiunuing downward spiralling of this borough. That's why I called you and your colleagues numpties.



I agree wholeheartedly that Lambeth has been a Nu Labour experiment for years ; I'm not blaming the government for anything ; and I suspect strongly from what you've written that you don't even know what party I represent.....


----------



## ajdown (Aug 10, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> I suspect strongly from what you've written that you don't even know what party I represent.....


----------



## Emet (Aug 10, 2011)

Hang 'em and flog 'em.


----------



## paolo (Aug 10, 2011)

gabi said:


> quite a big gathering of dancing people in windrush square.



Photos are up!

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/photos-windrush-square-jazz-band.279079/


----------



## Greebo (Aug 10, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Photos are up!
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/photos-windrush-square-jazz-band.279079/


Thanks for that.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 10, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> I didn't say things don't happen for a reason. There are deep soietal problems when grown adults with jobs, good educations and prospects choose to go out and indulge in looting miles from where they live and work.
> 
> But to sweep over everything as beinga case of those with nothing to loose lashing out is clearly not the whole story. Hurling personal abuse at me doesn't alter the facts behind some of those up in court.


You don't need a doctorate in social psychology to know that rage and resentment (and yes, greed too) will sweep through a crowd as fast as fear if the conditions are right. These educated adults surely identified with the mood of the day, instead of demonising them why don't we identify what that feeling is and how it came to be.


----------



## Emet (Aug 10, 2011)

I hope these 'educated adults' get the longest prison sentences allowable under the law.


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## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> I agree wholeheartedly that Lambeth has been a Nu Labour experiment for years ; I'm not blaming the government for anything ; and I suspect strongly from what you've written that you don't even know what party I represent.....



I don't give a damned which party you're with, AFAIK none of you are doing much to reverse the declining standards of living in Lambeth. You rather choose to bend over for Tescos, big developers or any number of other scumbags, hiding behind lovely words about "the community", "cooperation", "listening" and endless reams of politico shite, whilst business as usual goes on in Town Hall. I don't believe for a second that if Lambeth became a LibDem council things would change for the better. Why would it when Clegg himself predicted these riots a year ago, warning that if Tory policies were enacted the social compact would suffer?


----------



## Greebo (Aug 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I don't give a damned which party you're with, AFAIK none of you are doing much to reverse the declining standards of living in Lambeth. You rather choose to bend over for Tescos, big developers or any number of other scumbags, hiding behind lovely words about "the community", "cooperation", "listening" and endless reams of politico shite, whilst business as usual goes on in Town Hall. I don't believe for a second that if Lambeth became a LibDem council things would change for the better. Why would it when Clegg himself predicted these riots a year ago, warning that if Tory policies were enacted the social compact would suffer?


^This.  Couldn't have said it better, and certainly not with as few swear words.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I don't give a damned which party you're with, AFAIK none of you are doing much to reverse the declining standards of living in Lambeth. You rather choose to bend over for Tescos, big developers or any number of other scumbags, hiding behind lovely words about "the community", "cooperation", "listening" and endless reams of politico shite, whilst business as usual goes on in Town Hall. I don't believe for a second that if Lambeth became a LibDem council things would change for the better. Why would it when Clegg himself predicted these riots a year ago, warning that if Tory policies were enacted the social compact would suffer?



Spot on. I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 10, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> You don't need a doctorate in social psychology to know that rage and resentment (and yes, greed too) will sweep through a crowd as fast as fear if the conditions are right. These educated adults surely identified with the mood of the day, instead of demonising them why don't we identify what that feeling is and how it came to be.



It's one thing to understand that, however unacceptable you might think it is, looting has roots in pent up frustration from social exclusion. But I can't quite get my head around the concept that looting might be considered a justifiable expression of identification, empathy or support for the excluded.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 10, 2011)

I don't believe it is a justifiable expression of their frustration. Rather that their frustration and anger resulted in a disinhibition.

Let me expand on that because it sounds a bit wanky.
It's not an easily justified thing; we, broadly speaking, all feel that criminal damage and theft is wrong, it violates laws which maintain order in society. We like order. I don't believe that frustration is a valid reason for breaking laws.
These looters however, were disinhibited because the laws mean little to them. I've said before (on this thread i think) that they're disinterested in Us because we are disinterested in Them.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 10, 2011)

Worst field trip EVAH.

ed: for clarity


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 10, 2011)

Approximately one million police vehicles just headed down the hill. Most only had lights, not sirens. hmm. Although I'm trying to think whether they were pelting down there as fast as normal.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> A 31yr old employee of Stockwell Primary School pleaded guilty to looting in court today.
> 
> Lives in Battersea and works in Stockwell/Brixton, but was caught looting Richer Sounds in Croydon !? Also lives with his mum.
> 
> ...



A bit of history is relevant. If u think this is the case do you object with the 81 riots in Brixton being celebrated recently as an "Uprising"? I remember the riots that happened in the 80s. During the 81 riot there was looting and destruction of of local businesses. Also the Fire Brigade were attacked when they arrived on the scene.

I didnt notice politicians complaining about the recent anniversary of 81.

The logic of your argument is that all rioting is inexcusable and people should always use the correct institutional channels and democratic procedures. However much they fell aggrieved and not listened to. Is this your position?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

Saw lots of Police vans today from different part of the country in central London - including Wales


----------



## Fingers (Aug 10, 2011)

apparently 200 or so EDL kicking off in Brixton, a tonne of Welsh plod heading that way now. They are going to be outnumbered about 1000-1


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## quimcunx (Aug 10, 2011)

You jest surely?

Actually on twitter on sunday evening an edl guy tweeted that it was nonsense, he is at b splash and no trouble.......

I thought it very odd.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 10, 2011)

Fingers said:


> apparently 200 or so EDL kicking off in Brixton, a tonne of Welsh plod heading that way now. They are going to be outnumbered about 1000-1



Where did you get that from?

Are you sure you don't mean "Eltham" instead of Brixton, "some people" instead of "EDL" and "kicking off an hour ago" instead of "kicking off"?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> I agree wholeheartedly that Lambeth has been a Nu Labour experiment for years ; I'm not blaming the government for anything ; and I suspect strongly from what you've written that you don't even know what party I represent.....



I didnt think u would blame the Government as u have said before ur LibDem.

Going back to historical context again. In the 80s when the Thatcher governments policies started to bite there was an increase in social disorder.

From what ive seen since your Government came to power there are signs that this is happening all over again.

But this time there is no strong civil organizations to channel peoples anger and resentment. Thatcher weakened the Trade Union movement for example. This is what is most concerning and could lead to further trouble in future as the cuts really bite.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 10, 2011)

Oh FML. I'm getting on the 133 in a sec


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 10, 2011)

Fingers said:


> apparently 200 or so EDL kicking off in Brixton, a tonne of Welsh plod heading that way now. They are going to be outnumbered about 1000-1



I doubt this is actually happening.


----------



## Fingers (Aug 10, 2011)

Yeah just found out it was Eltham and they were EDL. Video of them attacking some black guys on a bus for you to peruse

http://twitpic.com/6421m9


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 10, 2011)

There would be a lot more sirens keeping coming if it was true.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

Fingers said:


> apparently 200 or so EDL kicking off in Brixton, a tonne of Welsh plod heading that way now. They are going to be outnumbered about 1000-1



The Welsh fighting the English again.


----------



## ajdown (Aug 10, 2011)

From the BBC news live feed:

*2151:* Scotland Yard has named the 26-year-old man who died after being found shot in a car during riots in Croydon as Trevor Ellis, of Brixton Hill.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 10, 2011)

ajdown said:


> From the BBC news live feed:
> 
> *2151:* Scotland Yard has named the 26-year-old man who died after being found shot in a car during riots in Croydon as Trevor Ellis, of Brixton Hill.


 They'll have tracked down his next of kin then.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

Hindu Business Line news:

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/industry-and-economy/economy/article2342347.ece

Armed with swords and hockey sticks, over 700 Sikhs took to the streets last night to protect the Guru Singh Sabha gurdwara in Southall as the police were stretched to maintain law and order on the streets of London.
Local vigilante groups have been formed in various areas in London to protect homes and business establishments that have been vandalised by rioters — mainly of Afro-Caribbean origin — in London over the past four days

This is pitting different communities against each other.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 10, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> You don't need a doctorate in social psychology to know that rage and resentment (and yes, greed too) will sweep through a crowd as fast as fear if the conditions are right. These educated adults surely identified with the mood of the day, instead of demonising them why don't we identify what that feeling is and how it came to be.



way too sensible you are


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Fingers said:


> Yeah just found out it was Eltham and they were EDL. Video of them attacking some black guys on a bus for you to peruse
> 
> http://twitpic.com/6421m9



"We've come down to guide them." Sure you have.


----------



## Emet (Aug 10, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Going back to historical context again. In the 80s when the Thatcher governments policies started to bite there was an increase in social disorder.



You might care to extend the historical context back a bit. The UK's living standards had been on the slide for a good few years under Labour, and Heath's Tories, before that. The IMF had loaned some billions to keep the show on the road in the mid-1970's. The UK didn't look as if it could make it as an industrial economy, with low-end industry beginning to go east. The trade union reforms could be seen as of little relevance, and mostly for show: the industrial working class was dead; it didn't need a trade union movement.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 10, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Hindu Business Line news:
> 
> http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/industry-and-economy/economy/article2342347.ece
> 
> ...


thing is, liocal businessmen, and local communities are feeling threatened by what has happened over the last few days, and the vigilante forming indiviiduals in these local communnity group are going to take advantage of that.
And stuff is going to get really out iof hand if this is allowed to go on.
I really like dthe quote from a cousin of one of the guys run over last might in Birmingham "We don't want anything more to happen – just the culprits brought to justice. We don't want other families to suffer. It's the youth. They have no knowledge, they have no jobs and they are bored." (from the guardian report page here)


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/

This made me laugh


----------



## Glennard (Aug 10, 2011)

Got to Manchester today - just walked around the centre - like Cuba or Russia - a police state.

 Groups of Police huddling in the rain, on the corner of every otherwise deserted street, waiting for what happened yesterday.

 One prestigious store, hit then, had as many as 15 of its own security standing guard outside.

 Three young lads, minding their own business, stopped and made to account for their movements.

With brolly and glasses, I looked too old to attract more than suspicious looks.

 Makes me think that British policing, current spending cuts not withstanding will come more to resemble these countries or America's zero tolerance to keep the proles in check.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2011)

Emet said:


> I hope these 'educated adults' get the longest prison sentences allowable under the law.


do you think anyone gives a fuck about what you hope?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 10, 2011)

Tariq Jahan has more integrity, courage, compassion, presence, sincerity, love and respect for his community, calm, understanding and sense than any of the talking heads we've had to suffering preaching at us the last few days from our tvs.

e2a: and from some on here.


----------



## paolo (Aug 10, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Tariq Jahan has more integrity, courage, compassion, presence, sincerity, love and respect for his community, calm, understanding and sense than any of the talking heads we've had to suffering preaching at us the last few days from our tvs.



Yes, he spoke very well. Good to see it's getting alot of airplay on the news channels at the moment.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 10, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Yes, he spoke very well. Good to see it's getting alot of airplay on the news channels at the moment.



He spoke very well for your standard Wednesday, more so for having just lost his son, pretty much the worst thing that can happen to a person.


----------



## Voley (Aug 10, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Tariq Jahan has more integrity, courage, compassion, presence, sincerity, love and respect for his community, calm, understanding and sense than any of the talking heads we've had to suffering preaching at us the last few days from our tvs.


It was genuinely moving hearing him speak; incredibly lucid and pragmatic considering the circumstances.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 10, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Tariq Jahan has more integrity, courage, compassion, presence, sincerity, love and respect for his community, calm, understanding and sense than any of the talking heads we've had to suffering preaching at us the last few days from our tvs.
> 
> e2a: and from some on here.



and forgiveness than I would ever have


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

Fingers said:


> Yeah just found out it was Eltham and they were EDL. Video of them attacking some black guys on a bus for you to peruse
> 
> http://twitpic.com/6421m9



EDL really are shit. Black guys on bus doing what? Just trying to get home.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

Glennard said:


> Got to Manchester today - just walked around the centre - like Cuba or Russia - a police state.
> 
> Groups of Police huddling in the rain, on the corner of every otherwise deserted street, waiting for what happened yesterday.
> 
> ...



I was told today Met officer was paid £500 O/T to go to Manchester for the day. I remember during the Miners Strike the Met were raking it in on overtime pay.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

Emet said:


> You might care to extend the historical context back a bit. The UK's living standards had been on the slide for a good few years under Labour, and Heath's Tories, before that. The IMF had loaned some billions to keep the show on the road in the mid-1970's. The UK didn't look as if it could make it as an industrial economy, with low-end industry beginning to go east. The trade union reforms could be seen as of little relevance, and mostly for show: the industrial working class was dead; it didn't need a trade union movement.



North Sea Oil came on tap as Thatcher came to power. It could have been used to rebuild more modern industrial base. Because UK had economic problems does not mean that Thatcherism was just inevitable. Her Monetarist policies were (successful in Thatcherites view) project to restructure the economy and society.

Thatchers policies increased social inequality and ruthlessly "modernised" the economy with no regard for a great many ordinary people.

The rapid deficit reduction being pursued by this Government and its social "reforms" (most of which it didnt tell us about during the election) have echoes of the way the Thatcherites pursued there policies.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 10, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> Pure opportunistic theft and recreational thuggery was the order of the day.


I find this statement really saddening. I like you Steve, you do good things in our community, you get involved and I would have thought you'd be a bit more considered than this. In fact it's not a hope but an expectation, I expect politicians and community representatives and organisers to be more considered than this. You must; you can't simply let this situation deepen the Them and Us divide and you mustn't allow these to become a moral debate because it's a more than that. 
 It's your responsibility to represent the people of this area and so to dismissively say that it's pure opportunism and thuggery is at best lazy or short sighted.

As said before, the leader of your party predicted this, I will be paying close attention to what he says once parliament is back and the debate begins. He, and by extension the Lib Dems, will lose any remaining credibility if he backtracks and simply parrots Cameron's rhetoric.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Do you honestly expect him to do otherwise? And if he does parrot the Tory line, will the media remind of his words from the last election?


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 10, 2011)

I believe it's his place to Truxta. 
And yes, it's the medias place to highlight their hypocrisies as they arise.
I'm an out and out optimist


----------



## Emet (Aug 10, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> North Sea Oil came on tap as Thatcher came to power. It could have been used to rebuild more modern industrial base. Because UK had economic problems does not mean that Thatcherism was just inevitable. Her Monetarist policies were (successful in Thatcherites view) project to restructure the economy and society.
> 
> Thatchers policies increased social inequality and ruthlessly "modernised" the economy with no regard for a great many ordinary people.
> 
> The rapid deficit reduction being pursued by this Government and its social "reforms" (most of which it didnt tell us about during the election) have echoes of the way the Thatcherites pursued there policies.


Likely the revenue would have been spent on consumption. There was almost 30% inflation at some point around 1977. The government was printing money to keep going. There were endless discussions in the media about why we couldn't be like Germany - and a government report( the Bullock Report), and endless strikes: quite often to do with demarcation disputes. It is difficult to believe that a culture of industrial co-operation could have been revived, not easily anyway. The trade union leaders used to be ferried around in Rolls Royces in those days.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> I find this statement really saddening. I like you Steve, you do good things in our community, you get involved and I would have thought you'd be a bit more considered than this. In fact it's not a hope but an expectation, I expect politicians and community representatives and organisers to be more considered than this. You must; you can't simply let this situation deepen the Them and Us divide and you mustn't allow these to become a moral debate because it's a more than that.
> It's your responsibility to represent the people of this area and so to dismissively say that it's pure opportunism and thuggery is at best lazy or short sighted.
> 
> As said before, the leader of your party predicted this, I will be paying close attention to what he says once parliament is back and the debate begins. He, and by extension the Lib Dems, will lose any remaining credibility if he backtracks and simply parrots Cameron's rhetoric.



Top class posts Shifty Bag Lady.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 10, 2011)

Shucks :whatthefuckhappenedtotheembarrassedsmiley?:


----------



## chavezcat (Aug 10, 2011)

Anyone know why there is a chopper?


----------



## stevebradley (Aug 10, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> A bit of history is relevant. If u think this is the case do you object with the 81 riots in Brixton being celebrated recently as an "Uprising"? I remember the riots that happened in the 80s. During the 81 riot there was looting and destruction of of local businesses. Also the Fire Brigade were attacked when they arrived on the scene.
> 
> I didnt notice politicians complaining about the recent anniversary of 81.
> 
> The logic of your argument is that all rioting is inexcusable and people should always use the correct institutional channels and democratic procedures. However much they fell aggrieved and not listened to. Is this your position?



That's your interpretation of the 'logic' of my argument. And it's wrong.

I'm from Northern Ireland. I was born in Derry city a few months after 14 unarmed civil rights demonstrators, many of them children, were shot dead by Paratroopers - with over half shot in the back whilst running away. Britain's Tiannenman Square.

I spent 19yrs of my life being brought up in a city and a part of the world where severe community-rooted, politically-motivated public disorder was the norm, not the exception. I *get* the fact that public disorder can spring from justified grievances that aren't being addressed (particularly as Northrn Ireland was set up deliberately as a sectarian apartheid state).

But in the 30yrs of Northern Ireland's shockingly frequent public disorder - some of which I witnessed first hand - I don't recall hearing of a single incident of looting. I do recall, however, as a small child being in a shop in the Bogside in Derry whilst a riot was happening nearby. Two rioters came in wearing balaclavas. They got a couple of bottles of Lemonade, went to the front of the queue, aplogised to everyone else for pushing in and then paid for their drinks before leaving to presumably rejoin the riot.

I have no doubt that the events in Tottenham on Saturday night reflected the level of community anger there, fuelled by the inadequate response of the poiice to the Duggan shooting. I suspect the events on Sunday in places like Brixton had more to do with criminal opportunism (you only have to look at the types of premises that were attacked/looted to understand that). And I have no doubt that the events since then have been very largely "motivated by greed and violence". Not my words - but those of Diane Abbot on Newsnight tonight. As she said - we need to say it like it is.

The 1981 riots were motivated by genuine grievances against a blatantly racist police force that had been building up for some time and had no legal channel of being addressed. But this is not 1981. There is absolutely no comparison between the genuine explosion of communal rage that happened in 1981 and the stuff we've seen over the last few nights, and any attempt to do so both elevates the recent events to a level they don't deserve and drags the 1981 events down to a status that they deserve better than. In 1981 they didn't just loot a few electronics and clothes stores for a few hours and then melt away. They rioted consistently for 3 nights. If Brixton on Sunday was driven by some sort of idelogical reasoning, purpose or long pent-up rage/frustration - as 1981 was - then why weren't they out making their point night after night ? The npolice were so stretched on Monday night that Brixton would've been at their mercy. It's because if we're honest it was largely about looting and recerational violence, not a geneuine protest. Anything worth nicking was gone after one night.

There is minimal comparison between 1981 and recent events in my mind. Any attempt to do so just gives criminal opportunism a credibility and glamour it doesn't deserve, whilst dragging a genuine historical event event down to a level that dishonours it. 1981 deserves better.


----------



## stevebradley (Aug 11, 2011)

On the causes of the trouble, no doubt there'll be a huge amount of post analysis, rationalisation etc etc. But a few interesting things that need investigating :

- Why was there trouble in cities like Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham, whilst arguably more disadvantaged towns like Newcastle, Hull and Sheffield remained quiet ? One viewpoint on TV tonight was that events were largely driven by the presence of organised gang networks (driven largely by money) with the ability to organise a large hardcore of people onto the streets to take the lead in the looting.

- Why was the trouble confined to England ? Glasgow has huge social deprivation/inequality and massive social problems, plus a deeply rooted gang culture that stretches back generations. It also has the added tinder of entrenched sectarian animosity. Why was nowhere outside of England interested in copy-cat trouble ?

- Alongside the large urban areas, why was there copy cat trouble in somewhere relatively rural like Gloucester ? Or in a small city like Leicester, with its strong commuinity networks ?

- Contrary to the perception of events the public appears to have, it's been reported that the majority of those up in court today were white employed adults. How far from the expected/stereotypical profile of 'disaffected youth' participants was the reality, and why ?

Sociologists and social-psychologists will be clocking up serious over-time trying to work all of this out over the next few months. No doubt the race is already on to get the first book published 'explaining' it all.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 11, 2011)

I'm not sure quoting Diane Abbott is going to lend you much credence here.


----------



## stevebradley (Aug 11, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> I'm not sure quoting Diane Abbott is going to lend you much credence here.





Are you disagreeing with her viewpoint btw ?


----------



## Emet (Aug 11, 2011)

The police were completely out of control around here in the 1970's. There's been a lot of reform in the years following. It is much more difficult for them to get away with the brutality and fraud they practiced commonly in times past.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 11, 2011)

chavezcat said:


> Anyone know why there is a chopper?



Could be tracking down a stolen car, a burglar etc.  It's  quite normal


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 11, 2011)

Don't listen to her, it's a WARZONE!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 11, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> Don't listen to her, it's a WARZONE!



In Brixton? Stop telling porkies and scaring chavez


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 11, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> Are you disagreeing with her viewpoint btw ?



I expect so. I've forgotten what you said she said and what I heard her say myself.   I do remember some rather intemperate language issuing from my mouth when she did speak.  I've barely watched the news since the ConDems got to power because I don't have the money to replace my telly if I put a shoe through it and I've missed looting season, it seems.

As for experts on sociology etc putting books out no doubt those in power will do what they always do and completely ignore the advice of experts who have taken the time to actually study and analyse the situations we find ourselves in because it doesn't fit in with their own self-interest and policies. You seem to hold them in contempt yourself.


----------



## stevebradley (Aug 11, 2011)

Emet said:


> The police were completely out of control around here in the 1970's. There's been a lot of reform in the years following. It is much more difficult for them to get away with the brutality and fraud they practiced commonly in times past.



Though they can still get away with low-level stuff, like being paid to pass info to reporters.

As an aside - the biggest beneficiaries of events in England since Saturday are not those sitting at home with newly plundered TVs and trainers. It's the Murdochs - who must be thanking the gods that the spotlight has shifted completely and utterly away from them. They were still on the ropes last week, but now they've been completely forgotten about. And at the same time, the violence has shunted the public mood in the direction of their papers' right wing agenda. Double win for them 

A former NOTW Senior Editor was arrested today, and I only found out about it in an Irish newspaper..!


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 11, 2011)

Rupert Murdoch on the riots: "These people are criminals. If you don't believe me, listen to their voicemails''


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## stevebradley (Aug 11, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> You seem to hold them in contempt yourself.



Who - the experts/academics ?!

Far from it. I'm looking forward to understanding what the hell went on, as so much of it just doesn't make sense.

In return - you seem to follow the school of thought that looks largely to the government to wave a wand and sort deep-rooted societal problems. In reality there's only so much any government can do, and the time-scales involved will be so long that practically no politician could get their head around it all. Everyone needs to play a part in sorting out the ills of society, not just look over at the government to magic up the answers. The government can't sit in every home.


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## quimcunx (Aug 11, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> Who - the experts/academics ?!
> 
> Far from it. I'm looking forward to understanding what the hell went on, as so much of it just doesn't make sense.
> 
> In return - you seem to follow the school of thought that looks largely to the government to wave a wand and sort deep-rooted societal problems. In reality there's only so much any government can do, and the time-scales involved will be so long that practically no politician could get their head around it all. Everyone needs to play a part in sorting out the ills of society, not just look over at the government to magic up the answers. The government can't sit in every home.



I don't think that any government can wave a magic wand.  But not holding all but the richest of their electorate in complete and utter contempt would be a good first step.   This government are wantonly destroying more homes, more livelihoods, more lives than any looters. Not wantonly, intentionally. They (and labour before them, and the thatcherites before them) have eroded and are further eroding rights and benefits  hard fought for in the preceding decades.  They are stealing from us, and hobbling us in playing a part in improving our own lives.  What the government does (or is meant to do) for its people is not some product of their benevolence. We pay for it.   But the money we pay them to arrange collective services has been stolen from us to pay for the banks' greed, tax avoidance of the rich and unjust wars.


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## Kanda (Aug 11, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Rupert Murdoch on the riots: "These people are criminals. If you don't believe me, listen to their voicemails''



Rupert Murdoch, listening to recycled jokes on voicemail since 1991


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## chavezcat (Aug 11, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> In Brixton? Stop telling porkies and scaring chavez


Chavez is actually my cat.  But you always make me laugh Minnie...I've been a lurker on the boards since I moved here coming up to 7 years ago. I'm just getting panicked calls from my elderly parents and trying to reassure them by giving them play-by-play.


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## stevebradley (Aug 11, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> I find this statement really saddening. I like you Steve, you do good things in our community, you get involved and I would have thought you'd be a bit more considered than this. In fact it's not a hope but an expectation, I expect politicians and community representatives and organisers to be more considered than this. You must; you can't simply let this situation deepen the Them and Us divide and you mustn't allow these to become a moral debate because it's a more than that.
> It's your responsibility to represent the people of this area and so to dismissively say that it's pure opportunism and thuggery is at best lazy or short sighted.
> 
> As said before, the leader of your party predicted this, I will be paying close attention to what he says once parliament is back and the debate begins. He, and by extension the Lib Dems, will lose any remaining credibility if he backtracks and simply parrots Cameron's rhetoric.



Thanks for the compliments SBL. I'm intrigued to know who you are now.... 

I've expanded on what I think was behind events of the last 4 days - given the limited information we all have to date - in a couple of other posts above. Hopefully that helps to clarify where I'm coming from.

Nick Clegg may well have predicted disorder (I've no idea if he did personally, but aren't disputing it). But I suspect he was predicting more the likes of the TUC and Tuition fees riots, rather than people stripping clothes and electronics shops in copy-cat incidents. In my view one set of events was driven by ideological differences and concerns ; the other largely by greed and the overwhelming pervasiveness of our materialistic consumer society, which leads some people to feel they 'need' to own certain items/products, one way or another.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 11, 2011)

I'd find it embarassing if i were in his position http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 11, 2011)

chavezcat said:


> Chavez is actually my cat. But you always make me laugh Minnie...I've been a lurker on the boards since I moved here coming up to 7 years ago. I'm just getting panicked calls from my elderly parents and trying to reassure them by giving them play-by-play.



Exactly, stop scaring chavez the cat.  Cats like to sleep and object to be awoken by helicopters


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## London_Calling (Aug 11, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> Nick Clegg may well have predicted disorder (I've no idea if he did personally, but aren't disputing it). But I suspect he was predicting more the likes of the TUC and Tuition fees riots, rather than people stripping clothes and electronics shops in copy-cat incidents. In my view one set of events was driven by ideological differences and concerns ; the other largely by greed and the overwhelming pervasiveness of our materialistic consumer society, which leads some people to feel they 'need' to own certain items/products, one way or another.


What do you think the looting for 25 years of the public purse by MPs and Peers was about? Or the looting of £tens of billions each year from the Treasury by Ashcroft, Philip Green and the rest of the ennobled corporate tax avoiders, of the systematic looting for a decade also from the Treasury of £hundreds of billions by 'the masters of the universe' in the City - these teenagers have had a world class education in self-interest, greed and, yes, plain looting these past three years. If you want to apply your GCSE level socio-political nonsense to current events, lets have a little context.


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## Greebo (Aug 11, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> What do you think the looting for 25 years of the public purse by MPs and Peers was about?<snip> If you want to apply your GCSE level socio-political nonsense to current events, lets have a little context.


Agreed


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## Gramsci (Aug 11, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> That's your interpretation of the 'logic' of my argument. And it's wrong.
> 
> There is minimal comparison between 1981 and recent events in my mind. Any attempt to do so just gives criminal opportunism a credibility and glamour it doesn't deserve, whilst dragging a genuine historical event event down to a level that dishonours it. 1981 deserves better.



Dont tell me about glamourising rioting. Ive lived through all the riots in Brixton. The 81 riots and the rest included looting and setting fire to premises - I saw it.

You are glamourising the past but coming on all Daily Mail about the present.

In that case you wouldnt have a problem with the disorder around the student protests? Under your logic (again) they would count as being ideologically driven. Also the Anarchists attacks on banks and Topshop at the last anti cuts demo?


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## Gramsci (Aug 11, 2011)

Clegg has just been interviewed on the Today programme squirming when asked about his comments some time ago about that cuts etc would cause trouble.


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## Ms T (Aug 11, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> Though they can still get away with low-level stuff, like being paid to pass info to reporters.
> 
> As an aside - the biggest beneficiaries of events in England since Saturday are not those sitting at home with newly plundered TVs and trainers. It's the Murdochs - who must be thanking the gods that the spotlight has shifted completely and utterly away from them. They were still on the ropes last week, but now they've been completely forgotten about. And at the same time, the violence has shunted the public mood in the direction of their papers' right wing agenda. Double win for them
> 
> A former NOTW Senior Editor was arrested today, and I only found out about it in an Irish newspaper..!



You obviously weren't listening to the news on BBC Radio - personally put that story in at least twice yesterday.


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## Ms T (Aug 11, 2011)

chavezcat said:


> Chavez is actually my cat. But you always make me laugh Minnie...I've been a lurker on the boards since I moved here coming up to 7 years ago. I'm just getting panicked calls from my elderly parents and trying to reassure them by giving them play-by-play.



Cool cat name, btw.


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## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> A 31yr old employee of Stockwell Primary School pleaded guilty to looting in court today.
> 
> Lives in Battersea and works in Stockwell/Brixton, but was caught looting Richer Sounds in Croydon !? Also lives with his mum.
> 
> ...


I'm interested in this case.  Presumably the person concerned will now lose their job even if not sent down - he/she will have lost their CRC status.  Of course we don't know whether he/she was summoned to Richer Sounds by Blackberry or just walking past when the window stove in.
I am totally against all crimes against the person and crimes against property - but I also feel we are in a totally value free society whose ultimate aim is hedonism and macho posturing whether it be from Dave Cam, Fred the Shred or 50 cent.
24 hour news has hyped the situation up and encouraged breakdown in law and order. I think Steve is right there is no comparison with 1981, but there is with 1983. Just about everyone rioted in 1983 - even Wilmslow in Cheshire. This was at the depths of Maggie's depression - coal mines being closed down, unprecedented unemployment etc.   People were totally demoralised.
In a sense they are totally demoralised now - unemployment is expected to remain high - the government are taking measures to make it more and more difficult to claim benefits.  In a sense I share Steve's surprise that
someone in an apparently secure job should risk their career just for a bit of HiFi or a TV set.
To modify a trite but apt phrase of William Congreve's - We riot in haste and repent at leisure.


----------



## co-op (Aug 11, 2011)

CH1 said:


> In a sense they are totally demoralised now - unemployment is expected to remain high - the government are taking measures to make it more and more difficult to claim benefits. In a sense I share Steve's surprise that
> someone in an apparently secure job should risk their career just for a bit of HiFi or a TV set.
> To modify a trite but apt phrase of William Congreve's - We riot in haste and repent at leisure.



I don't know anything about the case in question except what Steve Bradley has cited but why wouldn't it be a bit demoralising to be 31 years old, in a steady job and having no option except to be living at home with your mum? There's no way someone on primary school teacher's wages is going to be able to afford even a crappy little bedsit in Battersea/Stockwell/Brixton let alone - God forbid - a house with a garden for a child to play in. Never. Not even if they keep their nose clean and play the game. Never. That's permanent; no one who hasn't bought already in this area is ever going to be able to afford a decent home that lets them enjoy some of the incredibly modest possibilities of family life - except of course for the super-rich.

Steve - do you own your own house? Where did you get the money for that? I seem to remember hearing that you were a property "developer" (i.e profiteer) yourself - don't know if this is true but maybe you could clear that up?

Just for the hysterics who want to accuse me of supporting looting, of course I'm not saying that this justifies looting etc but the collapse in the level of legitimate expectations of ordinary people's lives has been spectacular and if you don't let people have a stake in society then you can expect shit like this.


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## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

co-op said:


> I don't know anything about the case in question except what Steve Bradley has cited but why wouldn't it be a bit demoralising to be 31 years old, in a steady job and having no option except to be living at home with your mum? There's no way someone on primary school teacher's wages is going to be able to afford even a crappy little bedsit in Battersea/Stockwell/Brixton let alone - God forbid - a house with a garden for a child to play in. Never. Not even if they keep their nose clean and play the game. Never. That's permanent; no one who hasn't bought already in this area is ever going to be able to afford a decent home that lets them enjoy some of the incredibly modest possibilities of family life - except of course for the super-rich.
> 
> Steve - do you own your own house? Where did you get the money for that? I seem to remember hearing that you were a property "developer" (i.e profiteer) yourself - don't know if this is true but maybe you could clear that up?
> 
> Just for the hysterics who want to accuse me of supporting looting, of course I'm not saying that this justifies looting etc but the collapse in the level of legitimate expectations of ordinary people's lives has been spectacular and if you don't let people have a stake in society then you can expect shit like this.


You are absolutely right about housing.  And it's even worse than what you say - for many years now banks have been giving mortgages to property speculators who then rent out vile bedsits to refugees, people with mental health problems, ex prisoners etc all paid for by Social Services.  Yet another example of "The PFI" beloved by Gordon Brown.  Get _*Fred the Shred*_ to lend to "landlords" thus pricing property out of the reach of people wanting their own home.  Banks satisfied, Social Services satisfied - but ordinary people FUCKED!


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## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

Stevebradley, I'm astounded by your unwillingness to accede that these riots had any connection to ideology. Consumerism and hedonism *is *the ideology of your beloved neo-liberalism. Greed and selfishness are the almost inevitable outcomes of buying into this ideological framework, and yet you seek to divorce the motives of the rioters from this. Disgraceful.


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## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Stevebradley, I'm astounded by your unwillingness to accede that these riots had any connection to ideology. Consumerism and hedonism *is *the ideology of your beloved neo-liberalism. Greed and selfishness are the almost inevitable outcomes of buying into this ideological framework, and yet you seek to divorce the motives of the rioters from this. Disgraceful.


Are you saying that rioting is fun, or maybe sexually stimulating?
I'm sure the Electoral Commission has a vacancy for an Wilhelm Reich Orgone Party - if you are proposing one


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## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

CH1 said:


> Are you saying that rioting is fun, or maybe sexually stimulating?
> I'm sure the Electoral Commission has a vacancy for an Wilhelm Reich Orgone Party - if you are proposing one



I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few Riot Babies on the way tbh. I'd be well up for an Orgone Party. Man the accumulators!


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 11, 2011)

I do not much care for Mr Bradley. He's practically in bed with Tescos. The long term ruination of Brixton Market. I can't trust a single word he says about anything.


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## stevebradley (Aug 11, 2011)

co-op said:


> Steve - do you own your own house? Where did you get the money for that? I seem to remember hearing that you were a property "developer" (i.e profiteer) yourself - don't know if this is true but maybe you could clear that up?



Yes I own my own place - mortgaged to the hilt. The deposit for it was cobbled together from a) money I made on a flat I bought 11yrs ago when I lived in Newcastle (itself bought on a zero-deposit deal my employer at the time had with local bank Northern Rock) that rocketed in value, plus b) a substantial personal loan which I will still be paying off in years. Though in fairness, individual's personal finances are none of your business. I look forward to full disclosure of your finances in return. Not because I'm in any way interested, but just in the interests of equity 

As for the notion that I'm a property developer - I bloody wish !  Have you seen my 9yr old car second-hand with dents and scratches all over it ? This is a smear that Labour tried to put out during the by-election when I was elected - though strangely they only mentioned it once in a single letter. I suspect they realised they were in very murky legal waters so had to stop. It's complete bollox, though I'd expect nothing less from Lambeth Labour. I do have a background - and a Masters degree -  as a consultant in sustainable urban regeneration, and I have advised football clubs (which is my real passion) on how to sustainably develop their facilities. But that no more makes me a property developer than a Theology degree and a dog collar would make me Jesus Christ 

As we're all into the spirit of disclosure now, I'd love to know where your 'information' on this came from ? Didn't you used to/still work for Labour, or have I got you mixed up with someone else on here...?


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## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few Riot Babies on the way tbh. I'd be well up for an Orgone Party. Man the accumulators!


Maybe we should consider it then. I reckon a slate of Orgies in Coldharbour Ward would win hands down.  Pity about our demure Rachel (unless she defects).The other two deserve oblivion in my view.


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## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

CH1 said:


> Maybe we should consider it then. I reckon a slate of Orgies in Coldharbour Ward would win hands down. Pity about our demure Rachel (unless she defects).The other two deserve oblivion in my view.



I'll bust out my Cloudbusters then.


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## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> Yes I own my own place - mortgaged to the hilt. The deposit for it was cobbled together from a) money I made on a flat I bought 11yrs ago when I lived in Newcastle (itself bought on a zero-deposit deal my employer at the time had with local bank Northern Rock) that rocketed in value, plus b) a substantial personal loan which I will still be paying off in years. Though in fairness, individual's personal finances are none of your business. I look forward to full disclosure of your finances in return. Not because I'm in any way interested, but just in the interests of equity
> 
> As for the notion that I'm a property developer - I bloody wish !  Have you seen my 9yr old car second-hand with dents and scratches all over it ? This is a smear that Labour tried to put out during the by-election when I was elected - though strangely they only mentioned it once in a single letter. I suspect they realised they were in very murky legal waters so had to stop. It's complete bollox, though I'd expect nothing less from Lambeth Labour. I do have a background - and a Masters degree - as a consultant in sustainable urban regeneration, and I have advised football clubs (which is my real passion) on how to sustainably develop their facilities. But that no more makes me a property developer than a Theology degree and a dog collar would make me Jesus Christ
> 
> As we're all into the spirit of disclosure now, I'd love to know where your 'information' on this came from ? Didn't you used to/still work for Labour, or have I got you mixed up with someone else on here...?


Steve don't rise to the bait!  You only need to justify yourself to constituents.
I must say politics has gone soft now in Lambeth. When I was a councillor 1994-98 two councillors went to prison - one (Tory) for fraudulent mortgage application, one (Labour) for having a string of council flats whilst owning his own house.  Additionally the leader of the Labour group had to resign for fraudulently altering a disabled parking badge.  Why are they complaining about you now? Tell 'em to get on the naughty step, or get in the Orgone box with me!


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## stevebradley (Aug 11, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I do not much care for Mr Bradley. He's practically in bed with Tescos. The long term ruination of Brixton Market. I can't trust a single word he says about anything.



I'm in bed with Tescos ?! 

I feel sorry for you Magpie. You haven't a feckin' clue - you really don't. I'm actually doing everything I can to frustrate a Tesco planning application they have to open a store in my ward, as I want to protect the existign local shops there. It's futile, as I can't stop them under the planning rules - but I can at least delay them and make it hard for them. You really haven't got a feckin clue about my views on Brixton Market either, and unsurprisingly are completely wrong on that score as well.

I've been a member of U75 for 7yrs now - and only a councillor for 3 of those. I don't come on the site too often these days, but I've been very open about the fact that I'm a councillor on here, and I've tried to be helpful with issues people raise (e.g. the unapproved advertising hoarding on CHL) and the odd bit of casework that people have contacted me about directly (even though they haven't been constituents of mine). But you know what - it's really not worth it when people literally just make up sh!t like this.

I now see why I'm the only person who posts on here openly as a councillor. But to be honest it's just not worth my time doing so any more when I have to put up with made-up sh!t like this and the stuff above from Co-op. People always say they want their public representatives to be more open, accessible, involved etc. And then when one tries to do so they have to spend time defendign themselves against complete and utter nonesense from anonymous people who haven't a clue. Really not worth it anymore.

P.S. If you genuinely want to see how 'in bed' I am with Tesco, come along to the Planning Applications Committee meeting in September (precise meeting tbc) where I'll be fighting against their store application in my ward. It's going to PAC because I specifically requested it do so, rather than have it decided by officers on their own. Or come along to the Licensing Applications Committee meeting (date tbc) where I'll be speaking against their liquor application for the same store. Or maybe you'll be too busy sitting at home on your keyboard anonymously making stuff up...


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## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 11, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I do not much care for Mr Bradley. He's practically in bed with Tescos. The long term ruination of Brixton Market. I can't trust a single word he says about anything.


Well, i see far more of him around our ward than I do of our other cllrs and I've not heard bad things about him which is unusual as I'm a right gossip.
Tescos and the Market? Why so Mrs M? Can we gossip?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 11, 2011)

Ice rink.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 11, 2011)

I must admit this is the perception locally. If he's anti-rink in Brixton I will give a grovelling apology over a coffee in the Phoenix. Or a pint in the Albert


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## Emet (Aug 11, 2011)

Neo-liberalism is just fine. Spare us the dead hand of the state.


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## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

Emet said:


> Neo-liberalism is just fine. Spare us the dead hand of the state.



I don't think you know what neo-liberalism means if you think the state has no role to play in its roll-out.


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## Winot (Aug 11, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I must admit this is the perception locally. If he's anti-rink in Brixton I will give a grovelling apology over a coffee in the Phoenix. Or a pint in the Albert



You don't need to be anti-rink to escape the charge of being "practically in bed with Tesco's".  Sounds like an apology is in order to me (wouldn't expect you to grovel though).


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## Emet (Aug 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I don't think you know what neo-liberalism means if you think the state has no role to play in its roll-out.


As little as possible I hope.


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## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

Emet said:


> As little as possible I hope.



On the contrary. The state is massively implicated in neo-liberalism - by definiton it has to. The increase in the marketization of everything is utterly dependent on state sanction. Loads of threads on that around here, this really isn't the place so I'll leave it at that.


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## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> I'm in bed with Tescos ?!
> 
> I feel sorry for you Magpie. You haven't a feckin' clue - you really don't. I'm actually doing everything I can to frustrate a Tesco planning application they have to open a store in my ward, as I want to protect the existign local shops there. It's futile, as I can't stop them under the planning rules - but I can at least delay them and make it hard for them. You really haven't got a feckin clue about my views on Brixton Market either, and unsurprisingly are completely wrong on that score as well.
> 
> ...


A few points here:
1. Very few people post openly at all here.  Presumably it is partly a throwback to the days
 of USENET when people used to post upsetting and untraceable comments (flaming). This type of culture may be conducive to Oscar Wilde witticism, but often people are just venting bile.
2. Making allegations about councillors is one thing - when said councillor gets legal beagles involved is another - as appeared to happen with T Smith. Urban should have an etiquette about treatment of officials.  Otherwise they get fried (how about The Commander-B Paddick). Maybe all councillors have to be anonymous on Urban 75 - or not use it - DEBATE
3. This Tesco fetish pisses me off. Sorry to go on like an old man, but in 1997 or thereabouts Tescos wanted to take over the derelict South London Hospital for Women.They offered to relocate the Clapham Park Library (a popular local library in my ward-Thornton) which the council wanted to sell off for housing.  When the planning application came up I voted for Tescos - because most of my constituents on the Poynders Garden Estate and the Oaklands Estate were very keen - and the library offer was there.
In the end commercial pressures from Abbeville Road, yuppies, buppies, dinkies etc. pressured the Planning Committee to reconsider and it was made abundantly clear that I MUST vote against Tescos or risk a personal surcharge.
What happened in the end - Tescos appealed - £100,000+ of your council tax money (assuming you pay any) went in legal fees.  Tescos got their supermarket - but Thornton Ward did not get their library saved. The anti Tesco campaigners cut off my constituents nose to spite their face. Hooray!
4. Licensing application - I will be very surprised if this is refused.  You practically have to be an armed robber to have a license refused by Lambeth!


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## Emet (Aug 11, 2011)

I dread to think what London would be like now with the tenancy laws of the 1970's.


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## gabi (Aug 11, 2011)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/policing-seems-to-work-201108104177/


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## quimcunx (Aug 11, 2011)

CH1 said:


> pressured the Planning Committee to reconsider and it was made abundantly clear that I MUST vote against Tescos or risk a personal surcharge.



What sort of vote is that, if you're not allowed to choose what you vote?  

Anyway I meant to say earlier, fair play to you for coming on here and talking as a counsellor, Steve.  I don't know much about you.  I'm not a gossip like that frightful shifty one.   you should watch her, you know.

I didn't look into the tesco icerink thing in detail but a lot of people seem to think it stinks.   I'm not a big fan of Tesco's way of working. I guess it's a case of an imbalance of power.  Something else the govt would be tackling if they were on our side rather than Tesco's.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 11, 2011)

Winot said:


> You don't need to be anti-rink to escape the charge of being "practically in bed with Tesco's". Sounds like an apology is in order to me (wouldn't expect you to grovel though).


My particular Tescos thing is about how they promised to have it in Streatham and suddenly it's there where the car park is, Tescos reneging on promises again, and the Market is suffering as a result. If Steve Bradley voted against this then my apology will indeed be grovelling.


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## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Well ultimately the problem with Tescos is the same as with banks. The British business environment favours centralised monopolists.
With regard to the ice rink, it was only a couple of years ago that Lambeth Council were talking about demolishing Brixton Rec.  How can councillors be so crass?  Lambeth started building that thing in the early 1980s - ran out of money - it was only finished because Maggie abolished the GLC and Ken Livingston kindly took the project over to avoid all the GLC funds being clawed back by the Tory government.  How would Lambeth get another Rec then - a PFI perhaps?  Talk about mortgaging your children's future!
I'm actually agnostic about ice rinks - never been skating myself. I can imagine that lots of people in Brixton might miss the car park - but even that was so badly maintained they were looking for an excuse to demolish it.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 11, 2011)

Yes, but it's loss (and I'm not very pro-car at all) is killing the market. Not the trendy ice-cream shops and eateries, but people buying bulk groceries for their families. There needs to be a car park in the market.


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## fractionMan (Aug 11, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> What sort of vote is that, if you're not allowed to choose what you vote?
> 
> Anyway I meant to say earlier, fair play to you for coming on here and talking as a counsellor, Steve. I don't know much about you. I'm not a gossip like that frightful shifty one. you should watch her, you know.



I think it's fairly common stuff.  Pisses all over the 'change it from the inside' suggestions some people have.  It's designed so you can't change it from the inside.


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## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Well there was a car park on top of Kwik Save as was. I think the police closed that down because it became a notorious cruising spot (that dates me, doesn't it?)


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## Winot (Aug 11, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> My particular Tescos thing is about how they promised to have it in Streatham and suddenly it's there where the car park is, Tescos reneging on promises again, and the Market is suffering as a result. If Steve Bradley voted against this then my apology will indeed be grovelling.



We'll probably never find out now - you've scared him away.


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## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

Winot said:


> We'll probably never find out now - you've scared him away.



If that's all it takes then good riddance.


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## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

The Chancellor is on his feet - pay attention!


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Makes me nostalgic for Tripoli. The only airport where smoking is compulsory. Why on earth are we spending money blowing them up??


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> If that's all it takes then good riddance.


heh 

Well, I don't blame him. He always gets stick for contributing. If everybody knew who I was I might take it personally if anybody dared to question my lifestyle or call me names. As it stands, I'm beyond criticism or abuse


----------



## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

That's what you think...


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 11, 2011)

He's had worse. He'll be back soon, but is a very busy man, unlike loads of the likes of us tapping away on keyboards.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Ed Balls is blaming the government's economic policy for destabilising the streets


----------



## fractionMan (Aug 11, 2011)

Good.  At least someone brought it up.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Good. At least someone brought it up.


Yeah well these guys are on Planet Zog - Sir Peter Tapsell earlier asked the Prime Minister to round up the rioters and confine them to Wembley Stadium - citing as a precedent President Nixon's treatment of anti Vietnam protesters in Washington in 1971! These are the people who are governing us in Parliament - and you lot complain about Steve Bradley!


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Chancellor planning more "Enterprise Zones" This will be bad for London and Brixton unless some of these zones are in London.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

CH1 said:


> Yeah well these guys are on Planet Zog - Sir Peter Tapsell earlier asked the Prime Minister to round up the rioters and confine them to Wembley Stadium - citing as a precedent President Nixon's treatment of anti Vietnam protesters in Washington in 1971! These are the people who are governing us in Parliament - and you lot complain about Steve Bradley!



We gotta start somewhere and you'd think there's a better chance of having your meagre influence felt locally rather than on the national level.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Charles Kennedy asking a hostile question.  How will jobs be created if banks refuse to invest in private sector job companies, and the government is also cutting public sector jobs?


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> We gotta start somewhere and you'd think there's a better chance of having your meagre influence felt locally rather than on the national level.


That's true - but back to plan A - We need Kate Bush and a Cloud Burster outside the Ritzy. The Orgone party launch would take them by storm!


----------



## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

CH1 said:


> That's true - but back to plan A - We need Kate Bush and a Cloud Burster outside the Ritzy. The Orgone party launch would take them by storm!



Free and bloody hard orgasms to the people!


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Do


TruXta said:


> Free and bloody hard orgasms to the people!


Do the Ritzy take requests? I haven't seen the original version of WR since 1970 at the Academy in Oxford Street.  The Channel 4 version had goldfish obscuring the naughty bits.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

Which one - that Czech movie?


----------



## story (Aug 11, 2011)

Er... Are we still discussing Brixton violence...?


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

N


TruXta said:


> Which one - that Czech movie?


No it was Yugoslav. Dyllis Powell (Sunday Times critic at the time) went nuts over it.
See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.R.:_Mysteries_of_the_Organism


----------



## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

CH1 said:


> N
> 
> No it was Yugoslav. Dyllis Powell (Sunday Times critic at the time) went nuts over it.
> See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.R.:_Mysteries_of_the_Organism



That's the one. Nuts in a good way? And _story_, not really.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 11, 2011)

story said:


> Er... Are we still discussing Brixton violence...?


 
Just killing time while brixton is not being violent.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> That's the one. Nuts in a good way? And _story_, not really.


She voted it film of the year. One of the things that was appealing at the time was that it infuriated the (communist) authorities. Yugoslav troops massed when it was shown at a film festival in Trieste. Of course the US were equally displeased with it.


----------



## Emet (Aug 11, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Just killing time while brixton is not being violent.


I think we've returned to plain old regular crime.

I got the feeling last night that the police were doing some recriminatory activity around Marcus Garvey Way.


----------



## co-op (Aug 11, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> Yes I own my own place - mortgaged to the hilt. The deposit for it was cobbled together from a) money I made on a flat I bought 11yrs ago when I lived in Newcastle (itself bought on a zero-deposit deal my employer at the time had with local bank Northern Rock) that rocketed in value, plus b) a substantial personal loan which I will still be paying off in years. Though in fairness, individual's personal finances are none of your business. I look forward to full disclosure of your finances in return. Not because I'm in any way interested, but just in the interests of equity
> 
> As for the notion that I'm a property developer - I bloody wish !  Have you seen my 9yr old car second-hand with dents and scratches all over it ? This is a smear that Labour tried to put out during the by-election when I was elected - though strangely they only mentioned it once in a single letter. I suspect they realised they were in very murky legal waters so had to stop. It's complete bollox, though I'd expect nothing less from Lambeth Labour. I do have a background - and a Masters degree - as a consultant in sustainable urban regeneration, and I have advised football clubs (which is my real passion) on how to sustainably develop their facilities. But that no more makes me a property developer than a Theology degree and a dog collar would make me Jesus Christ
> 
> As we're all into the spirit of disclosure now, I'd love to know where your 'information' on this came from ? Didn't you used to/still work for Labour, or have I got you mixed up with someone else on here...?



There's more than one point here so in no particular order;  I can't remember where I heard the property developer story, maybe second hand via Labour's leaflet- you certainly wouldn't have been the first person to jump into the housing bubble that has ruined so many people's lives and communities over the past 15 years - and finally ruined our whole sodding economy. Boasting about this shit was practically the national sport among those wealthy enough to join in. I'm guessing that it was your "regeneration" Masters that is the source of the story - and IMO of course - it's not that surprising that people are sceptical about it, or liable to jump to conclusions since "regeneration" is just the latest euphemism for dodgy spivvery. But I'm more than ready to accept that you aren't up to that and I apologise for retelling lies from Lambeth Labour Party.

I was certainly a member of the Labour Party for some years but I'm an utterly pissed off ex-member, I certainly don't grind their axes for them - they are mostly members of the super-rich local elite and several have played the property game themselves to great personal advantage.

My personal circs for what it's worth is that I'm a former flat-owner (ex-council) in Lambeth who - due to loss of partners job - could no longer hold down the mortgage and sold up last year. Now homeless with a 3 year-old child.

And lastly - to return to the main point I was making - how do you think that someone who is in full time employment at an age when he might (once) have been thinking about starting a family but is forced to live at home with his mum and will never, in his whole life, ever be able to own somewhere, even a modest little terrace with a small garden, how do you think someone like that should feel, if not demoralised? Isn't it worse than being on the dole? At least on the dole you have some hope - if I get a job I'll be able to start living. But when you are doing all the right things and you are still going to be a certain failure in our economy? Why wouldn't a 31 year-old behave like a teenager if he's living at home with his mum? Why would he give a shit about behaving like a grown up if he's never going to get a chance to buy into the game?

Lastly lastly, I appreciate your participation on the board under your own name although god knows I hate the Lib-dems for putting the tories in and I wonder why someone who represents Vassell ward can join in with that, I really do. That place is going to get shat on from a great height by this govt.


----------



## Ozone (Aug 11, 2011)

co-op said:


> why wouldn't it be a bit demoralising to be 31 years old, in a steady job and having no option except to be living at home with your mum? There's no way someone on primary school teacher's wages is going to be able to afford even a crappy little bedsit in Battersea/Stockwell/Brixton let alone - God forbid - a house with a garden for a child to play in. Never.



I have been reading these threads with interest - but I have to put my 5 cents in....

With regards to the comments about the 31 year old teacher....
Firstly: He does not have to live at home with his mother. I have been a teaching assistant, and am now a teacher, and I have never lived with my mother. A teaching assistant earns about £1000/month (after tax) and although it is not a lot of money, I was able to rent a DECENT flat, and be able to support myself, without help from the bank of Mum and Dad, as well as live a fairly good life, with all the mod cons (TV, sky, a social life etc). Buying property is not the most important goal in life. On the continent many many people choose to rent their whole lives, even though they can well afford to buy.

As far as primary teaching salaries go: "New entrants to the profession in England, Wales and Northern Ireland start on the main salary scale, which rises incrementally from £21,102 to £30,842. Enhanced pay scales apply for teachers working in or near London" 
About the average wage for London????

I grew up in a country where there were no benefits, no EMA, no housing, no help from the government and no work=no money. Many people had nothing with no hope of ever changing their circumstances.....

Don't give the looters excuses.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 11, 2011)

You really couldn't rent a flat in London if you're take home was £1000 a month.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

Belushi said:


> You really couldn't rent a flat in London if you're take home was £1000 a month.



Depends where you live tho. You wouldn't get a flat, but a studio in some crap location should be doable.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 11, 2011)

We don't know his circumstances.  His parents might be living with him.  He might have moved back after his boyfriend chucked him out.   He might have debt his ex wife lumbered him with. He might be an eccentric millionaire.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Depends where you live tho. You wouldn't get a flat, but a studio in some crap location should be doable.



You might just be able to afford a studio, it'd have to be a really bloody cheap one though, you'd be better off sharing.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 11, 2011)

I'm a teaching assistant in a secondary school and I don't even earn £1000 a month before tax. Perhaps I should scuttle off to snap up the undoubted vacancy in Stockwell Primary created by the riots.


----------



## Ozone (Aug 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Depends where you live tho. You wouldn't get a flat, but a studio in some crap location should be doable.



Would it shock you if I said I lived in a NICE flat for 8 years in nice areas, never shared a room or lived in a bedsit/studio and never paid more than £550 (incl).

It can be done.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 11, 2011)

Ozone said:


> Would it shock you if I said I lived in a NICE flat for 8 years in nice areas, never shared a room or lived in a bedsit/studio and never paid more than £550 (incl).
> 
> It can be done.


 
Do you have a huge stock of compromising photos of the landlords of london?


----------



## saltounpepper (Aug 11, 2011)

Ozone said:


> I have been reading these threads with interest - but I have to put my 5 cents in....
> 
> With regards to the comments about the 31 year old teacher....
> Firstly: He does not have to live at home with his mother. I have been a teaching assistant, and am now a teacher, and I have never lived with my mother. A teaching assistant earns about £1000/month (after tax) and although it is not a lot of money, I was able to rent a DECENT flat, and be able to support myself, without help from the bank of Mum and Dad, as well as live a fairly good life, with all the mod cons (TV, sky, a social life etc). Buying property is not the most important goal in life. On the continent many many people choose to rent their whole lives, even though they can well afford to buy.
> ...


 
100% agree.  Plenty of unemployed people out there who would never even think about doing what he did.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

Ozone said:


> Would it shock you if I said I lived in a NICE flat for 8 years in nice areas, never shared a room or lived in a bedsit/studio and never paid more than £550 (incl).
> 
> It can be done.



When was this? And where? Crap was hyperbole, what I meant was not very central at all.


----------



## Ozone (Aug 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> When was this? And where? Crap was hyperbole, what I meant was not very central at all.



Zone 2. Near the river. Last year...
No compromising pictures of landlords, just lucky I guess.

But the real point here, is it is easy to give reasons why things are happening/to blame it on circumstances/whatever, but people make choices. I watched some of the people coming down my road after looting Currys, and I can say they were people with nice cars, nice clothes....etc. Not all of them were victims of the current cuts/victims of dire poverty who have no hope.


----------



## Belushi (Aug 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> When was this? And where? Crap was hyperbole, what I meant was not very central at all.



This, there's loads of us on here who are interested in nice flats in nice areas for £550 pcm in London at the moment.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

Sounds a bit unbelievable, Ozone - nothing personal. It certainly doesn't tally with my impressions from looking at ads in the last few years.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 11, 2011)

i know people who'd even be interested in £550 (incl) a month for a shit flat in a shit area.


----------



## Ozone (Aug 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Sounds a bit unbelievable, Ozone - nothing personal. It certainly doesn't tally with my impressions from looking at ads in the last few years.



Sorry....perhaps I was misleading. 2 bedrooms (£550 each). Had to share with a friend, obviously not ideal for a family...unless you could both put in the money....
Anyway, got to go out now, didn't want to start on debate on my renting credibility, just wanted to say I do think it is possible to have a good life in London without making the wrong choices....(and I accept that dependent on circumstances, it's not that simple for everyone).


----------



## Dan U (Aug 11, 2011)

even at £550 thats a whopping 55% of income on a £1k a month.

doesn't leave much when that gas bill drops on the mat does it.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 11, 2011)

Ozone said:


> Sorry....perhaps I was misleading. 2 bedrooms (£550 each). Had to share with a friend, obviously not ideal for a family...unless you could both put in the money....
> Anyway, got to go out now, didn't want to start on debate on my renting credibility, just wanted to say I do think it is possible to have a good life in London without making the wrong choices....(and I accept that dependent on circumstances, it's not that simple for everyone).



That's a whole different thing you're talking about. I believe I speak for most of us in believing you were renting 1 bed flats on yer own for 550 pcm inc. Which is frankly unbelievable. 1100 shared is fairly normal around Brixton. I pay less myself, but then again our landlady is mental in the nicest possible way.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 11, 2011)

Ozone said:


> Zone 2. Near the river. Last year...
> No compromising pictures of landlords, just lucky I guess.
> 
> But the real point here, is it is easy to give reasons why things are happening/to blame it on circumstances/whatever, but people make choices. I watched some of the people coming down my road after looting Currys, and I can say they were people with nice cars, nice clothes....etc. Not all of them were victims of the current cuts/victims of dire poverty who have no hope.


 
If there are 1000 flats for £550 or less and 10,000 similar flats at more than £550 and 11,000 people looking for flats then most of them are going to have to pay more than £550.

e2a: Ah, I see they were talking bollocks.

If I might speculate for a moment.  I'm as qualified as the next person, I reckon.  I'm not an expert but I have met people, and I am people.  One of the many reasons they might do this - because they feel justified.  Or because they can convince themselves it is justified.  People rarely fuck over people just because they enjoy fucking over people. We always do it because of some insult or perceived insult to ourselves or because everyone else is doing it, I don't want to be the mug that pays and never gets paid.  Tit for tat.  Everyone thinks what they are doing the tit as a reaction to a tat.  No one ever thinks they did the tatting. They feel they might as well as they feel that they have been fucked over.  Same as putting down a bit extra on an insurance claim. They feel that insurance companies shaft them so this is their chance to get a bit back.  The govt is fucking us, The super rich are fucking us, the banks are fucking us etc.  This is for all the times I feel I've been shafted. Ha!

For instance I once bought a hand held vacuum cleaner.  It was rubbish.  I didn't take it back though, and it got more rubbish and I ignored it then threw it out.  I went to Argos and bought another more expensive one.  When I got home I realised they'd given me two.  Normally I would return one and point out their error.  This time I took one back and got my money back.  I justified this to myself as I'd previously spent money on one which was rubbish and broke.  They complain about the money the lose but not about the money they gain from when people don't return shoddy goods or when they won't let them return shoddy goods.  That was my justification to myself.


----------



## co-op (Aug 11, 2011)

It is so boring having to trot out this line again and again but - just for the benefit of those posters who didn't manage to read it in my first post - I'm not trying to "make excuses" for anybody, this guy could be a complete arsehole for all I know. I've spent time on the dole myself, I didn't go looting either etc etc. Blah blah blah.

What I was saying is that the mere fact that someone "has a job" doesn't automatically mean that they are given access to the important resources that allow a 'normal' life to be lived. Most of the housing in Stockwell is social housing even now (65% or so in Stockwell ward) - but you try and buy one and it'll cost you close to a quarter of a million for a couple of bedrooms. How is anyone normal going to do that? Theses were houses that were built for people who lived locally and worked in modest-income jobs - like our culprit. They are now just a fantasy for anyone like this man, an utter fantasy. And whoever it was that started going on about how home-ownership isn't the be-all and end-all is either sitting pretty or stupid; yes it's different "in Europe" - whatever that means - but tell me a bit more about exactly where and how. You think sitting in Assured Shorthold Tenancies - at a "market rent" of course - for the rest of your life without any rights whatsoever is a stable foundation for meaningful participation in society? Or raising a family? What a joke.

And what's this nonsense about teaching assistants being able to rent easily? I know someone who's a TA, she gets just over £10,000 gross. God knows what the take-home is.

Honestly some of the comments on here are just fucking ridiculous.


----------



## Winot (Aug 11, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> For instance I once bought a hand held vacuum cleaner. It was rubbish. I didn't take it back though, and it got more rubbish and I ignored it then threw it out. I went to Argos and bought another more expensive one. When I got home I realised they'd given me two. Normally I would return one and point out their error. This time I took one back and got my money back. I justified this to myself as I'd previously spent money on one which was rubbish and broke. They complain about the money the lose but not about the money they gain from when people don't return shoddy goods or when they won't let them return shoddy goods. That was my justification to myself.



In other words you told Argos to suck it up.

(sorry)


----------



## Ozone (Aug 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> That's a whole different thing you're talking about. I believe I speak for most of us in believing you were renting 1 bed flats on yer own for 550 pcm inc. Which is frankly unbelievable. 1100 shared is fairly normal around Brixton. I pay less myself, but then again our landlady is mental in the nicest possible way.


 
Sorry...


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 11, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> I've been a member of U75 for 7yrs now - and only a councillor for 3 of those. I don't come on the site too often these days, but I've been very open about the fact that I'm a councillor on here, and I've tried to be helpful with issues people raise (e.g. the unapproved advertising hoarding on CHL) and the odd bit of casework that people have contacted me about directly (even though they haven't been constituents of mine). But you know what - it's really not worth it when people literally just make up sh!t like this.
> 
> I now see why I'm the only person who posts on here openly as a councillor. But to be honest it's just not worth my time doing so any more when I have to put up with made-up sh!t like this and the stuff above from Co-op. People always say they want their public representatives to be more open, accessible, involved etc. And then when one tries to do so they have to spend time defendign themselves against complete and utter nonesense from anonymous people who haven't a clue. Really not worth it anymore.



Ive scanned through the last posts and Im not happy at the personal nature of some of the posts directed at you either. Its derailing the thread and is uncalled for. Attack someones politics but not there personal life.

Im all for some robust political debate on a thread like this and Im glad that at someone from Council or other parties comes on here.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 11, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> I'd find it embarassing if i were in his position http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo&feature=youtube_gdata_player



Oh I posted that up a while back. Was looking for it again as I dont think Bradley saw it.

Here is Nick Clegg on the Today programme today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9561000/9561638.stm

He is questioned about his previous views. The "Smash and grab society"


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 11, 2011)

Seamus Milne on the riots:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/10/riots-reflect-society-run-greed-looting


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 11, 2011)

Runnymede Trust on Tottenham riots:

http://www.runnymedetrust.org/blog/153/359/Tottenham---a-tragedy-we-should-have-seen-coming.html

It appears that we have failed to learn from the past and are therefore doomed to repeat our mistakes. Mistrust of the police has once again been the spark in a tinderbox of exclusion and hopelessness that creates the conditions for riots of this type. Despite the efforts of many people in communities to advocate for change and to address the exclusion of young people, from the Peace Alliance to Haringey Young People Empowered, they are not helped by the overwhelming inequality faced by those they are working with. 
As Tottenham picks itself up and its people seek to restore their lives, we look forward to hearing from government what they intend to do to help. This week in New York we have seen Mayor Bloomberg announce a $1 billion public/private partnership to address the economic exclusion of African American and Latino young men. In London, an initiative of this kind seems to be too much to ask. Instead we have a government that is yet to publish a strategy to address racial inequality, 75% cuts to youth services in Haringey, a policing strategy that is failing to address the serious youth violence on our streets, and the organisations that might make a difference scrabbling for resources rather than being able to address the problems.
Just as evidence tells us what conditions drive riots, it can also tell us what works in minimising them. Government and civil society both have roles in finding the solutions. If we know that racial inequality creates bad outcomes for us all, why is so little being done to address it? The people of Tottenham deserve answers.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 11, 2011)

Noticed Tessa Jowell in Federation today meeting a vocal local and discussing the riots.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 11, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Oh I posted that up a while back. Was looking for it again as I dont think Bradley saw it.
> 
> Here is Nick Clegg on the Today programme today:
> 
> ...


Ah thanks Gramsci, was a bit annoyed to have missed that this morning. Can't view it on my gadget though


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> ...vocal local...


That'll go nicely in my user tag. Thanks!


----------



## Ms T (Aug 11, 2011)

My next-door neighbour said she was told that people were being dragged out of their cars on Railton Rd on Monday night.  Anyone heard that?

She's lived here for 30+ years and is absolutely livid.  "I hope they get every single one of them, and if they're too young to go to prison, send the parents".  She's a tough lady, my neighbour.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 11, 2011)

editor said:


> That'll go nicely in my user tag. Thanks!


It's yours for a trophy...


----------



## Rushy (Aug 12, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Ive scanned through the last posts and Im not happy at the personal nature of some of the posts directed at you either. Its derailing the thread and is uncalled for. Attack someones politics but not there personal life.
> 
> Im all for some robust political debate on a thread like this and Im glad that at someone from Council or other parties comes on here.


Yikes! I agree with Gramsci...


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2011)

Thats ok Rushy


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 12, 2011)

stevebradley said:


> I'm in bed with Tescos ?!
> 
> I feel sorry for you Magpie. You haven't a feckin' clue - you really don't.


It was far far worse than that. Clueless doesn't begin to describe me on this one.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...lling-public-apology-to-steve-bradley.279162/

My shame knows no bounds.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 12, 2011)

Gramsci, if Mr Bradley has pushed off (I wouldn't blame him) could you possibly point him towards my grovel? I know you are often in contact with those at the Town Hall on various issues.


----------



## lang rabbie (Aug 12, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Clueless doesn't begin to describe me on this one.



Probably not as embarrassed as the people who were tweeting that "the Prime Minister" was in Brixton this morning.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Gramsci, if Mr Bradley has pushed off (I wouldn't blame him) could you possibly point him towards my grovel? I know you are often in contact with those at the Town Hall on various issues.



Well Im not that often in contact.

I expect Bradley would be told as I think some of those at Town Hall lurk on the boards.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2011)

This was banned from Facebook


----------



## Ms T (Aug 12, 2011)

lang rabbie said:


> Probably not as embarrassed as the people who were tweeting that "the Prime Minister" was in Brixton this morning.



I'm sure Ed was pleased about that one.


----------



## NS1664 (Aug 12, 2011)

Wondered if anyone could help me please?
I live off acre lane neat tescos but I m currently on holiday.  Could anyone please advise if any residential property has been damaged as I m worried about my flat
Many thanks


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 12, 2011)

Not aware of any residential property damaged on Acre Lane.  But someone else might know different.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 12, 2011)

Nah, haven't heard anything about that round those parts. I'm the opposite side of Acre Lane from you, it was almost all down on the High St and round CHL.


----------



## NS1664 (Aug 12, 2011)

Great thanks v much


----------



## CH1 (Aug 12, 2011)

Don't want to get too off topic, but.. I went to Camberwell Magistrates Court this afternoon.  Following all the fuss about 24hr sittings etc was expecting loads of looters to be up before the beak.  I got there about 3.30pm and there were only two cases pending.  I haven't been in that court before, but was surprised to find that in Court 1 the defendant has to sit in a glass box, and the "public gallery" is a sauna style enclosure with glass slats. There is a speaker system to relay the sound of the proceedings for the public, but it was turned off (or simply not working). Justice can be seen to be done - seen and not heard so to speak.
The judge looked a bit like former President Mubarrak, although he spoke more like Tariq Ali (as far as I could hear) , although on this occasion it was the public in the cage.
First up was a confused working class white woman of about 30 charged with looting one pair of ladies shoes (or so she gestured to her two supporters in the gallery).  She was remanded in custody for a few more days for reports -  "as there was a child involved" (one assumes she was a mother).
Second up and last for the day was a small African looking guy, anything between 25-35.  He looked very innocent and demure, especially when the SERCO security guards kept flexing their rubber gloves at him.  (Do all prisoners these days have AIDS/HIV or Hepatits?  Or is it the SERCO staff that are infected?)  Anyway Mr A denied any violence towards the police - completely contradicting police evidence.  The judge sorted this out very elegantly - her refused bail on the grounds that the defendant's address could not be verified as genuine.  Mr A became very agitated at this and was ranting on at the staff for a minute or two after the Judge had adjourned, risen and left the chamber.
On leaving the court I complained to the staff that it was almost impossible to hear the proceedings - they suggested I contact the building manager.  They also confirmed they would not be open on Sunday, so obviously the Sky News/BBC News competitive hysteria has not reached Camberwell yet!


----------



## Emet (Aug 12, 2011)

CH1 said:


> ....... but was surprised to find that in Court 1 the defendant has to sit in a glass box.


They wouldn't have been sitting in a glass box had there not been a strong possibility that they would either have been remanded in custody, or given a custodial sentence. If "all options are open", you go to the glass box. If it hadn't been for the riots these folk would have been sitting out in the open. Their offences, I imagine, would not have even gone to court in normal circumstances.


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## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2011)

Isn't that for those held in custody?


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## Emet (Aug 12, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Isn't that for those held in custody?


I was charged with the supply of cannabis and tried at Camberwell. It took them five hearings to convict me. I was on bail all the while. Only at the last hearing was I sent into the glass box because prison was a possibility.


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## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2011)

Ah, I see.

Do you do solid, as well?  KIDDING!


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## TruXta (Aug 12, 2011)

The people wants to know!


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## Emet (Aug 12, 2011)

TruXta said:


> The people wants to know!


I now live a life of dull and monotonous purity.


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## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2011)

Emet said:


> If it hadn't been for the riots these folk would have been sitting out in the open. Their offences, I imagine, would not have even gone to court in normal circumstances.



Yes looks like offences that would have been given a fine or short sentence will get what Magistrates call "exemplary" sentence. Happens at demos as well. I remember the demo against the Israeli attack on Gaza. People were locked up for offences that if had happened on a drunken saturday night they would have got a fine or caution. Its political. If ur seen to have taken part in a collective threat to order rather than individual one the State comes down on u big time.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 12, 2011)

Emet said:


> I now live a life of dull and monotonous purity.



I expect most of the looters will go on to do the same.



Gramsci said:


> Yes looks like offences that would have been given a fine or short sentence will get what Magistrates call "exemplary" sentence. Happens at demos as well. I remember the demo against the Israeli attack on Gaza. People were looked up for offences that if had happened on a drunken saturday night they would have got a fine or caution.* Its political. If ur seen to have taken part in a collective threat to order rather than individual one the State comes down on u big time.*



There should be a law against that.


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## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2011)

Here is U75s favourite  commentator on social issues and young people Kate Birbalsingh (see Free School thread) take on youth and riots

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/k...ainers-is-ok-everyone-makes-excuses-for-them/


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## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 12, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Here is U75s favourite  commentator on social issues and young people Kate Birbalsingh (see Free School thread) take on youth and riots
> 
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/k...ainers-is-ok-everyone-makes-excuses-for-them/


I just know that following that link will hurt my eyes and reading the comments quite possibly lead me to PC murder so I'll refrain.


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## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2011)

I know what u mean. I couldnt read it all. Sadly its representative of a lot of opinions ive being hearing recently. Guardianistas like me on on the back foot at the moment.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2011)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> I just know that following that link will hurt my eyes and reading the comments quite possibly lead me to PC murder so I'll refrain.


you're right, it would. fortunately i'm made of sterner stuff and it only makes me want to commit pc manslaughter.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2011)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> I just know that following that link will hurt my eyes and reading the comments quite possibly lead me to PC murder so I'll refrain.



Try this reading this for a laugh. Its so accurate its black humour:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...at-melanie-phillips-is-not-well-201108114183/


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## quimcunx (Aug 12, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Here is U75s favourite  commentator on social issues and young people Kate Birbalsingh (see Free School thread) take on youth and riots
> 
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/k...ainers-is-ok-everyone-makes-excuses-for-them/




She sounds about as expert as me. I did do a 30 credit intro to social sciences with the OU, after all.  Why is she being given a voice in a national paper?


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## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> She sounds about as expert as me. I did do a 30 credit intro to social sciences with the OU, after all. Why is she being given a voice in a national paper?



She is a Hottie?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2011)

CH1 said:


> Don't want to get too off topic, but.. I went to Camberwell Magistrates Court this afternoon. Following all the fuss about 24hr sittings etc was expecting loads of looters to be up before the beak. I got there about 3.30pm and there were only two cases pending. I haven't been in that court before, but was surprised to find that in Court 1 the defendant has to sit in a glass box, and the "public gallery" is a sauna style enclosure with glass slats. There is a speaker system to relay the sound of the proceedings for the public, but it was turned off (or simply not working). Justice can be seen to be done - seen and not heard so to speak.
> The judge looked a bit like former President Mubarrak, although he spoke more like Tariq Ali (as far as I could hear) , although on this occasion it was the public in the cage.
> First up was a confused working class white woman of about 30 charged with looting one pair of ladies shoes (or so she gestured to her two supporters in the gallery). She was remanded in custody for a few more days for reports - "as there was a child involved" (one assumes she was a mother).
> Second up and last for the day was a small African looking guy, anything between 25-35. He looked very innocent and demure, especially when the SERCO security guards kept flexing their rubber gloves at him. (Do all prisoners these days have AIDS/HIV or Hepatits? Or is it the SERCO staff that are infected?) Anyway Mr A denied any violence towards the police - completely contradicting police evidence. The judge sorted this out very elegantly - her refused bail on the grounds that the defendant's address could not be verified as genuine. Mr A became very agitated at this and was ranting on at the staff for a minute or two after the Judge had adjourned, risen and left the chamber.
> On leaving the court I complained to the staff that it was almost impossible to hear the proceedings - they suggested I contact the building manager. They also confirmed they would not be open on Sunday, so obviously the Sky News/BBC News competitive hysteria has not reached Camberwell yet!



This CH1 was one of your good posts. A revealing portrait of how the so called Justice system works beyond todays tabloid media crowing about rioters.


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## gaijingirl (Aug 12, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Here is U75s favourite  commentator on social issues and young people Kate Birbalsingh (see Free School thread) take on youth and riots
> 
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/k...ainers-is-ok-everyone-makes-excuses-for-them/



She knows fuck all about Japanese schools and children!!  MASSIVE sweeping statement there very wide of the mark!


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## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2011)

Photoshoplooter have more funny photos in a book. Profits go to Shelter and Kids Company:

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/

If only one of those tossers in Government was looted.


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## quimcunx (Aug 12, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> She knows fuck all about Japanese schools and children!! MASSIVE sweeping statement there very wide of the mark!



She knows fuck all about anything very much by the looks of things.


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## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2011/aug/12/riots-water-theft-punishment

Guardian have got poll for :

In the aftermath of this week's riots, a 23-year-old student with no previous convictions was jailed for the maximum permitted six months after pleading guilty to stealing bottles of water worth £3.50 from Lidl in Brixton. Do you think the punishment is fair?

Stealing from Lidl? What next? Like I give a fuck.


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## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2011)

Article mentioning Milibands visit to Brixton yesterday:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/12/ed-miliband-links-riots-scandals

What he says is a good deal more measured and willing to look at underlying causes of riots than the response by Steve Reed , other Lambeth Labour Cllrs and Chuka .

He said: "We have got to avoid simplistic answers. There's a debate some people are starting – is it culture, is it poverty and lack of opportunity? It's probably both."
He said the Scarman inquiry into the riots of the 1980s had had a long-term beneficial impact.

"Currently, the government is saying there is a select committee in the House of Commons that is going to look at these issues, and that's enough. But that select committee is only looking at the narrow policing and home affairs issues."

The Labour leader accepted that his party must bear some of the blame for the culture in which the rioters grew up, saying the party had not done enough when in power to reduce inequality.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2011)

usual shabby research by the guardian. the scarman report into the '81 riots, thus missing all the riots later in the decade.


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## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2011)

Didnt notice that. Yes it says Scarman report is about riots of the 80s.

Ive noticed the 81 riot is the only one that politicians etc mention as well as media. Its, in a way, got the status now of a "good" riot.

I also find it curious that the riots that came after 81 are not discussed at all now. Not quite sure why this is.

Also Ive had to explain to people about the 81 riots. Some young people dont much about them.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 13, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Didnt notice that. Yes it says Scarman report is about riots of the 80s.
> 
> Ive noticed the 81 riot is the only one that politicians etc mention as well as media. Its, in a way, got the status now of a "good" riot.
> 
> ...



That 's probably because they weren't as "good" or go on for as long as the 81 riots.  The 85 riots were nasty compared to the mid-90s one but nothing compared to the 81 riot.  Similarly, ignoring everything else that happened in London, 2011's "riot" was more a case of a bit of looting and was pretty insignificant compared to the 81 or 85 riots.  I barely even remember the one in the mid 90s.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2011)

I wasnt just thinking about Brixton.

Sadly I think the other riots are not so well remembered as people got used to having riots happen.

The Broadwater Farm riot was just as important as the 81 riot due to the level of hatred against the Police and the actual death of one Officer. And took place soon after the 1985 Brixton riot. It was started after the death of Cynthia Jarrett of a stroke when the Police searched her home.

The 1985 Brixton riot started after the shooting of Cherry Groce by Police during a search. By this time the Police were equipped and trained to deal with public disorder. Practise makes perfect. So it wasnt so easy for the rioters compared to 81 when the cops were caught completely off guard with no riot gear.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2009/sep/30/brixton-riots-1985-archive

At the time of the 1985 riot the blame was put on a "criminal element"

Same with 1995 - started after the death of Wayne Douglas in Police custody.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/15/world/man-s-death-sets-off-riot-in-london.html

I think it was the 1995 one where the block of flats on the corner of Gresham road and CHL (where the big junction is) were burnt down. The ground floor furniture shop was set alight and the people above had to get out. The flats were destroyed. They were later rebuilt.

But all of this is , if not forgotten,is not looked at for similarities between then and now.

The recent Tottenham riot was in response to a death involving the Police. It almost as if nothing has changed.

See this letter from former resident of Broadwater Farm now living in Chile:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/12/crime-and-punishment-issues-riots


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 13, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I wasnt just thinking about Brixton.
> 
> Sadly I think the other riots are not so well remembered as people got used to having riots happen.
> 
> ...



Yes, I realise that.  I was actually talking about the disturbances/damage rather than the reasons behind it.

Off to bed so will have to read that tomorrow


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## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2011)

And here is Brixton resident Darcus Howe being interviewed on BBC. This is poor copy but sound is good. Pulled after apology given by BBC because interviewer said that he had taken part in riots in the past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=herSDvIVTFw&feature=player_embedded


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## quimcunx (Aug 13, 2011)

Here's a better copy.

http://www.youtube.com/user/MIXTAPEMASTER2011#p/a/u/1/mzDQCT0AJcw


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## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That 's probably because they weren't as "good" or go on for as long as the 81 riots. The 85 riots were nasty compared to the mid-90s one but nothing compared to the 81 riot. Similarly, ignoring everything else that happened in London, 2011's "riot" was more a case of a bit of looting and was pretty insignificant compared to the 81 or 85 riots. I barely even remember the one in the mid 90s.


In one respect the '85 riot was like a preview of the Croydon "Reeves Corner" incident. The privately owned furniture shop on the corner of Barrington Road/ Coldharbour Lane/Gresham Road burnt down - with many flats above. This was actually shown collapsing into the ground on the TV news. So it certainly was nasty compared to '95. The owner was bemused to have been attacked by the community which also provided his loyal customers.
Curiously the social housing project replacing the burnt out shop and flats (Raphael House) has a roof terrace AND ground floor on-site parking for about ten cars, Not much employment generation there LBL/Metropolitan!


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## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2011)

I got that wrong then. Getting riots mixed up. The flats were burnt out in 1985. I agree it was a preview of Croydon. None of this has been mentioned when some politicians ( Lambeth Labour , Chuka) have been trying to say that the riots back then were different.

good photo CH1


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## newbie (Aug 13, 2011)

the petrol station opposite was also firebombed that night.


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## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I got that wrong then. Getting riots mixed up. The flats were burnt out in 1985. I agree it was a preview of Croydon. None of this has been mentioned when some politicians ( Lambeth Labour , Chuka) have been trying to say that the riots back then were different.
> 
> good photo CH1


Thanks.
The 1985 riots were similar to now.
In 1985 we had Cherry Groce shot in the spine by police hunting down her son (alleged to be armed and hiding in her house).  Subsequently another of her sons appealed for calm, whilst demanding answers of the police.  In a nice Christian flourish he eventually made a stained glass "Peace Window" for St Matthews Church opposite the Fridge.

Now we have an alleged criminal shot dead in Tottenham, and the family appealing for calm, but demanding answers of the police.

Plus ça change?


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## Fenian (Aug 13, 2011)

I cannot believe it.  I'm at my Dad's and the council (he doesn't live in Lambeth) have put round a leaflet to households on his estate saying they'd help the police by 'generating convictions for any disorder that does occur by sharing CCTV and other intelligence...we will robustly pursue any council tenants who are proved guilty of being involved in criminal activity and will seek evictions where appropriate....this also includes the behaviour of anyone, including children, who currently live or stay with you in your home.'

Been robbing millions of people and work as a banker?  Have another million.  Throwing hundreds of thousands on the dole?  Well done.  Is there a kid in your house who's stolen a pair of trainers?  Hand over your house.


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## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I got that wrong then. Getting riots mixed up. The flats were burnt out in 1985. I agree it was a preview of Croydon. None of this has been mentioned when some politicians ( Lambeth Labour , Chuka) have been trying to say that the riots back then were different.


A decade ago I spent an afternoon in the Tate library reading a report about the activity of the police in Brixton (circa 1980). It was very clear the locals were treated with extraordinary brutality in the 1970's. That has changed. The police don't, indeed can't, behave like that any more.  Maybe, that is part of the difference. The  police of 2011 are quite fluffy by comparison.


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## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

Fenian said:


> I cannot believe it. I'm at my Dad's and the council (he doesn't live in Lambeth) have put round a leaflet to households on his estate saying they'd help the police by 'generating convictions for any disorder that does occur by sharing CCTV and other intelligence...we will robustly pursue any council tenants who are proved guilty of being involved in criminal activity and will seek evictions where appropriate....this also includes the behaviour of anyone, including children, who currently live or stay with you in your home.'
> 
> Been robbing millions of people and work as a banker? Have another million. Throwing hundreds of thousands on the dole? Well done. Is there a kid in your house who's stolen a pair of trainers? Hand over your house.


Must be Wandsworth.  Leader of Wandsworth Council has been on Newsnight and Radio 4's PM promoting a policy of evicting council tenants involved with rioting (even at 2nd hand)  Ravi Govindia used to be a nice guy when he worked for Greater London Association for Disability in Brixton Road.  Maybe the looting of Debenhams has stirred deep and painful memories of how he and his family were treated by Idi Amin before they had to flee Uganda?


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## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2011)

newbie said:


> the petrol station opposite was also firebombed that night.



I forgot this as well. It would be good to have some proper historical record of the previous riots.

Even a right winger like Kate Birbalsingh has trotted out the line that u cant relate the 80s riots to the recent one in Tottenham etc:

"The relationship between the police and the black community in the 1980s was extremely problematic, and I have to say that I have sympathies for the rioters of yesteryear."

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/k...re-racist-we-must-teach-them-about-the-1980s/


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## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> A decade ago I spent an afternoon in the Tate library reading a report about the activity of the police in Brixton (circa 1980). It was very clear the locals were treated with extraordinary brutality in the 1970's. That has changed. The police don't, indeed can't, behave like that any more. Maybe, that is part of the difference. The police of 2011 are quite fluffy by comparison.


Personally, I would consider being shot dead fairly brutal!


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## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

CH1 said:


> Personally, I would consider being shot dead fairly brutal!


A lot more people used to die in police custody.


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## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

There are still loads of people dying in police custody all over the country. As for Brixton - what do you think those Voodo-type things are round the tree outside the police station - they commemorate people who have died in custody - like Sean Rigg the black mental health "survivor" whose survival was TERMINATED by a couple of hours in Brixton nick!  If you want to educate yourself about policing issues in Brixton, attend the Community Police Consultative Group for Lambeth (as set up by Lord Scarman).  Just reading either the Scarman Report, or Lambeth Council's earlier Report into Policing won't tell you about the problems of today will it?  Now is 2011 - not 1981!


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

CH1 said:


> There are still loads of people dying in police custody all over the country. As for Brixton - what do you think those Voodo-type things are round the tree outside the police station - they commemorate people who have died in custody - like Sean Rigg the black mental health "survivor" whose survival was TERMINATED by a couple of hours in Brixton nick! If you want to educate yourself about policing issues in Brixton, attend the Community Police Consultative Group for Lambeth (as set up by Lord Scarman). Just reading either the Scarman Report, or Lambeth Council's earlier Report into Policing won't tell you about the problems of today will it? Now is 2011 - not 1981!


You are mistaken. In 1990 there were 19 deaths  in police custody in the Metropolitan police area and in 2010, just 3.

http://inquest.gn.apc.org/website/statistics/deaths-in-police-custody


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

I have attended the Community Police Consultative Group for Lambeth: never came across so many egotistical windbags in one room.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> You are mistaken. In 1990 there were 19 deaths in in police custody in the Metropolitan police area and in 2010, just 3.
> 
> http://inquest.gn.apc.org/website/statistics/deaths-in-police-custody


I know of one death in police custody that was not what people think. A man was found lying on the pavement in Clapham. The ambulance crew refused to take him to hospital on the grounds that he was drunk and so the police took him into custody to sleep it off. When he was taken to the station the custody sergeant was concerned about him and got him taken straight to hospital where he died. He had a non-visible head injury and it was likely that he'd been attacked before being seen by the ambulance crew. That was counted as a death in police custody.


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## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I know of one death in police custody that was not what people think. A man was found lying on the pavement in Clapham. The ambulance crew refused to take him to hospital on the grounds that he was drunk and so the police took him into custody to sleep it off. When he was taken to the station the custody sergeant was concerned about him and got him taken straight to hospital where he died. He had a non-visible head injury and it was likely that he'd been attacked before being seen by the ambulance crew. That was counted as a death in police custody.


So that's one the police don't deserve!


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2011)

Imagine a situation where someone has never been in the police station, is dangerously ill but for some reason is arrested in the hospital and dies in hospital, that will be counted as a death in custody too. It's important to look at each case rather than taking statistics at face value. Equally the police could be culpable for a death where no arrest is made and that wouldn't show up in the death in custody figures at all.


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Imagine a situation where someone has never been in the police station, is dangerously ill but for some reason is arrested in the hospital and dies in hospital, that will be counted as a death in custody too. It's important to look at each case rather than taking statistics at face value. Equally the police could be culpable for a death where no arrest is made and that wouldn't show up in the death in custody figures at all.


The stats I've given don't attribute culpability. But they do show a trend downwards.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2011)

I wasn't really commenting on culpability, just remembering a particular case from when I was a lay visitor to police stations in Lambeth.


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## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> So that's one the police don't deserve!


Well how about the recent Smiley Culture case.  Stabbed himself through the heart whilst the 2 visitng officers allowed him to make tea (unsupervised) in the kitchen next door. Mike Franklin from the Police Complains body admitted publicly at a Lambeth Town Hall meeting that would be a difficult one to explain away.


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## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> I have attended the Community Police Consultative Group for Lambeth: never came across so many egotistical windbags in one room.


Does this not apply in any democratic assembly?  Are you a neo-Platonist or what?  (Plato's Republic decries democracy as government by the rabble resulting in the lowest common denominator.  Rather we should have "Philosopher Kings" and "Guardians" specially selcted for their wisdom to look after us).
One can go for specially selected philosopher kings, but who selects them, how do you change them etc etc.  Give me the windbags any day!


----------



## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

CH1 said:


> Well how about the recent Smiley Culture case. Stabbed himself through the heart whilst the 2 visitng officers allowed him to make tea (unsupervised) in the kitchen next door. Mike Franklin from the Police Complains body admitted publicly at a Lambeth Town Hall meeting that would be a difficult one to explain away.


I think the fact that there were no riots when the Smiley Culture thing blew up - but there was a very large meeting in the town hall addressed by Mike Franklin, Lee Jasper, the Smiley Culture family and so on indicates that in Brixton it is possible to channel discontent and outrage politically.
Apparently not so in Tottenham for whatever reason.  So whilst many people didn't like Lee Jasper & co requisitioning a meeting about Smiley Culture - you may have Lee Jasper to thank for safely venting community anger about Smiley Culture's death.
David Lammy was quick to denounce the rioting after it had happened - but why did he not mobilise his community first after the shooting. Then he could have assumed a leadership role rather than a reactive one?  Maybe going to Harvard didn't help the street antennae?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2011)

It didn't help that the family in Tottenham sat for *hours* waiting to see a senior officer in the Police station but no-one could be bothered to speak to them. Pretty shoddy and certainly not far-sighted. More an 'ignore them and they'll go away' tactic, if you ask me. Didn't really work well in terms of community relations, did it?


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

CH1 said:


> Well how about the recent Smiley Culture case. Stabbed himself through the heart whilst the 2 visitng officers allowed him to make tea (unsupervised) in the kitchen next door. Mike Franklin from the Police Complains body admitted publicly at a Lambeth Town Hall meeting that would be a difficult one to explain away.


Look at the source for the stats I provided - the trend is downwards. Argue about that. I'm not saying that all policemen are saints, or that serious mistakes aren't made.

As for the Consultative Group, I would simply say that there are a fair few community leaders who seem to love the sound of their own voices. A lot of time is wasted. I have only attended on four occasions and I didn't find the experience educational.


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## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

There has been substantial reform in the police since the 1970's. It is reflected in the stats.


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## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Here's a better copy.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/MIXTAPEMASTER2011#p/a/u/1/mzDQCT0AJcw


Darcus's interview was interesting - and pretty much what you would expect him to say.  The interviewer was very condescending and called him "Marcus Dow" at the beginning - clearly didn't know who he was.  Neither did she understand that people identifying with a murder situation are apt to become emotional.

Sorry if I'm reposting, but I found this next clip interesting:

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16048584

These rioters interviewed apparently on the banks of the Thames complain about being "dissed" essentially.  One of them says he targeted Comet because they did not reply to his CV when he applied for a job there.

Maybe Cameron & co can't understand all this because having had a public school life of fagging and and mental/sexual abuse they think that it is normal, indeed character forming, to be put down.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> There has been substantial reform in the police since the 1970's. It is reflected in the stats.


The stats don't deal with emotions. And emotions are at the root of the disturbances.  You don't like meetings, you want us to tell the "yoot" the stats are getting better apparently.  Join David Lammy, David Cameron, Ravi Govindia then.  Increase repression.  But that would bugger up your stats, would it not!


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

CH1 said:


> One of them says he targeted Comet because they did not reply to his CV when he applied for a job there.



Poor little thing. He's going to find it a whole lot more difficult to get a job with a criminal record, if they catch him.


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

CH1 said:


> The stats don't deal with emotions. And emotions are at the root of the disturbances. You don't like meetings, you want us to tell the "yoot" the stats are getting better apparently. Join David Lammy, David Cameron, Ravi Govindia then. Increase repression. But that would bugger up your stats, would it not!


Prison stats: no, numbers are upwards and they have been for years.


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## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

CH1 said:


> The stats don't deal with emotions. And emotions are at the root of the disturbances.


Early last Monday morning I saw maybe 200 people - most of them with looted property - march up Barnwell Road and into the council estate by Summerleyton Road. They looked and sounded joyful. Joy is an emotion, isn't it?


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## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> Poor little thing. He's going to find it a whole lot more difficult to get a job with a criminal record, if they catch him.


That's exatly what Jack Dromey (MR Hariett Harman) said when it was shown to him.


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## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> Early last Monday morning I saw maybe 200 people - most of them with looted property - march up Barnwell Road and into the council estate by Summerleyton Road. They looked and sounded joyful. Joy is an emotion, isn't it?


You are being obtuse.  I am as much against rioting as anyone - I just say that Scarman found trigger events which set off the Brixton riots in 1981.  Now you and Uncle Tom Cobbly and all seem to be deny there ARE any trigger events.  You just think that the rioters are spontaneously wicked and should be punished.
To me that is not an analysis.


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

CH1 said:


> That's exatly what Jack Dromey (MR Hariett Harman) said when it was shown to him.


He's right.


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

CH1 said:


> You are being obtuse. I am as much against rioting as anyone - I just say that Scarman found trigger events which set off the Brixton riots in 1981. Now you and Uncle Tom Cobbly and all seem to be deny there ARE any trigger events. You just think that the rioters are spontaneously wicked and should be punished.
> To me that is not an analysis.


I'll start getting a lot more sympathetic when the bruvvers riot against the rates of violent crime in their communities.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> There has been substantial reform in the police since the 1970's. It is reflected in the stats.



You're claiming a trend of reform from the fact of a lessening of deaths in custody.

Fine, now please actually make a case for why you're right.


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> I'll start getting a lot more sympathetic when the bruvvers riot against the rates of violent crime in their communities.


I would of course prefer non-violent protest and, in which case, I would join them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

CH1 said:


> The stats don't deal with emotions. And emotions are at the root of the disturbances. You don't like meetings, you want us to tell the "yoot" the stats are getting better apparently. Join David Lammy, David Cameron, Ravi Govindia then. Increase repression. But that would bugger up your stats, would it not!



The stats show a lessening of deaths in custody, that's all they *can* show. How Emet believes this illustrates a general lessening in police brutality, though, is beyond me. There are alternate explanations for fewer deaths in custody *besides* "coppers are less brutal now".

He might fool himself, but he's not going to fool the youngsters, or even an old fart like me with his logic-free burbling.


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're claiming a trend of reform from the fact of a lessening of deaths in custody.
> 
> Fine, now please actually make a case for why you're right.


Just one tiny aspect of reform. The police are drawn from different backgrounds, there is cctv everywhere - including police vehicles and stations, confessions were often forced, the police forged statements etc. The brutality of earlier decades was really something to behold. That has changed because it is so visible when it happens.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> Just one tiny aspect of reform. The police are drawn from different backgrounds, there is cctv everywhere - including police vehicles and stations, confessions were often forced, the police forged statements etc. The brutality of earlier decades was really something to behold.


I still don't see how this negates the shock effect of someone being shot dead NOW.  And OK the police have provided data showing the guy have criminal connections - but how about all the other non-criminal connections?
If my son/brother/uncle was shot dead I'd still be well upset - however much the Bill spin the dirt


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

Additionally, police pay is very much much better and there is less incentive to break the rules. You'd lose a very attractive pension if you were found out.


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> There are alternate explanations for fewer deaths in custody *besides* "coppers are less brutal now".


You'll be producing these explanations, of course?


----------



## Fenian (Aug 13, 2011)

CH1 said:


> Must be Wandsworth. Leader of Wandsworth Council has been on Newsnight and Radio 4's PM promoting a policy of evicting council tenants involved with rioting (even at 2nd hand) Ravi Govindia used to be a nice guy when he worked for Greater London Association for Disability in Brixton Road. Maybe the looting of Debenhams has stirred deep and painful memories of how he and his family were treated by Idi Amin before they had to flee Uganda?


It isn't Wandsworth - reading today's Guardian there's a lot at it too. I believe this to be so, so insidious. What next? They are seeking to have it accepted that innocents can lose major social rights if they don't effectively police their children, or anyone in the household, from minor transgressions. They're saying they'll evict innocents because a kid in the household thieves a bottle of water, and no-one is challenging the concept.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> Just one tiny aspect of reform. The police are drawn from different backgrounds



That's not reform, it's a change in personnel policy.



> there is cctv everywhere - including police vehicles and stations, confessions were often forced, the police forged statements etc. The brutality of earlier decades was really something to behold.



Yes, it was something to experience, too.



> That has changed because it is so visible when it happens.



There are CCTV camera is houses that are raided?
In every single street, covering the majority of angles?
CCTV footage doesn't "go astray" or, if recorded onto digital media, get "accidentally" wiped?
"Contemporaneous notes" no longer get agreed in the station canteen?

I could go on, but it's too depressing.

The violence, criminality and misanthropy may not be as visible, but it's still there, as bad as ever.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 13, 2011)




----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

Fenian said:


> It isn't Wandsworth - reading today's Guardian there's a lot at it too. I believe this to be so, so insidious. What next? They are seeking to have it accepted that innocents can lose major social rights if they don't effectively police their children, or anyone in the household, from minor transgressions. They're saying they'll evict innocents because a kid in the household thieves a bottle of water, and no-one is challenging the concept.


Got any suggestions?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> Additionally, police pay is very much much better and there is less incentive to break the rules. You'd lose a very attractive pension if you were found out.



Police pay has always, since the late 1970s, been in advance of the norm, and even before then, once you'd started getting annual increments, even a constable's salary could support a small family.
As for loss of pension as a motivation for good behaviour, how many corrupt coppers get put through the courts and lose their pensions, as against being allowed to retire with their pension rights intact? Last time I checked, in 2007, the Met were running at about 85% of coppers on disciplinaries being allowed to walk with their pensions, before they went before a board.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> You'll be producing these explanations, of course?



Just as soon as you make a case (that means not your thoughts and opinions, but facts that support them) that a lessening of deaths in police custody is attributable to "reform" in the police service.

I did ask first, after all, and all you've done since is post more waffle.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> Got any suggestions?


Here's a simple one. Let the law do it's job, and don't seek to score political points off of the suffering (because that's what being made homeless or threatened with homelessness is) of people peripheral to the actual issue.


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## Fenian (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> Got any suggestions?


I suggest we all state in the strongest terms possible that human rights are not negotiable on a bad news day.  I suggest that political leaders or politicians are not let off the hook but are called on to give a perspective on this disgusting concept.  They should not be allowed to forget their comments, least of all when they presume to seek votes again.


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## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's not reform, it's a change in personnel policy.


 That is a reform.

cctv is invaluable in protecting those in custody from abuse by the police. That was a reform.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> That is a reform.
> 
> cctv is invaluable in protecting those in custody from abuse by the police. That was a reform.



I have to ask: Are you a police officer, serving or otherwise? It'd explain a lot.

Anyway.

CCTV isn't a "reform", it's a technological advancement. One that allows all sorts of bodies to both surveil and to enforce self-governance. Use of TV has and had very little to do with policing, but a lot to do with local authorities deploying situational community safety strategies, something the police only belatedly began to pick up in the late '90s. To claim it's use in police stations is a reform is equally bogus. CCTV in stations (but still without full coverage in cells) is there because it was imposed by the H.O. after fuck knows how many years of consultation and policy ping-pong with ACPO etc, not because any police service decided off their own bat it'd be a good thing and actually asked for it. If reform has to be imposed, it's not really reform *of*, it's reform *by*.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2011)

The not in cells bit is because of the detainees. Would you want to use the toilet if there was a camera in there? I wouldn't.


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just as soon as you make a case (that means not your thoughts and opinions, but facts that support them) that a lessening of deaths in police custody is attributable to "reform" in the police service.
> 
> I did ask first, after all, and all you've done since is post more waffle.


I've given plenty of reasons, you appear not to want address any of them ( I imagine out of some infantile leftism).

Trends happen for a reason. There is a clear tend line in police custody deaths. I don't underestimate the racism, or thuggery in the police. But, like all crime it becomes much less likely if is likely to be discovered.

Now, explanations: you have not produced any.


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## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> The not in cells bit is because of the detainees. Would you want to use the toilet if there was a camera in there? I wouldn't.


In Brixton Nick there are. I know, I've been in them.


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I have to ask: Are you a police officer, serving or otherwise? It'd explain a lot.
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> CCTV isn't a "reform", it's a technological advancement. One that allows all sorts of bodies to both surveil and to enforce self-governance. Use of TV has and had very little to do with policing, but a lot to do with local authorities deploying situational community safety strategies, something the police only belatedly began to pick up in the late '90s. To claim it's use in police stations is a reform is equally bogus. CCTV in stations (but still without full coverage in cells) is there because it was imposed by the H.O. after fuck knows how many years of consultation and policy ping-pong with ACPO etc, not because any police service decided off their own bat it'd be a good thing and actually asked for it. If reform has to be imposed, it's not really reform *of*, it's reform *by*.



It was a specific policy designed to reduce the amount of abuse by the police.

The eighties and nineties were a succession of scandals involving the police. There were numerous miscarriages of justice, proof of brutality and some very costly civil court cases. They couldn't afford to go on as they were: these cases cost huge amounts of money.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> In Brixton Nick there are. I know, I've been in them.


There weren't when I was a Lay Visitor. That's obviously changed


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## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda: Go read some recent history about the police and the events that gave rise to reform over the last few decades. At the moment you don't appear to have enough knowledge to make reasonable comments.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> The not in cells bit is because of the detainees. Would you want to use the toilet if there was a camera in there? I wouldn't.



I wouldn't *want* to, no. It does however mean that cells provide an excellent surveillance-free forum for a bit of detainee-booting, just as they always have.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2011)

However, if officers walk along the corridor and into a cell they'll be picked up by CCTV and it wouldn't look good. Civilian gaolers or the Custody sergeant get people out of cells or take them food or whatever. If a complaint is made by a detainee and the CCTV is viewed and someone is seen going into the cell they can't explain it away so easily.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> It was a specific policy designed to reduce the amount of abuse by the police.



Yes, that's what I've just said. reform imposed *on* the police because they were incapable of restraining themselves, policing themselves and acting like civilised people.



> The eighties and nineties were a succession of scandals involving the police. There were numerous miscarriages of justice, proof of brutality and some very costly civil court cases. They couldn't afford to go on as they were: these cases cost huge amounts of money.



And they still do.
We've got voicemail-hacking scandals in which police are implicated, information-selling scandals adjacent to the voicemail-hacking scandals in which police are also implicated, we've got machinations at the top of the Met to avoid responsibility and cover corrupt behaviour that are every bit as bad as what's going on down at the bottom of the ladder, and we've got the same old brutality. In stations, at outdoor policing situations etc going on now as went on 15, 20, 25 years ago.

The main improvemnt now is better management of information and public relations, that's all.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2011)

The fact that the the buck initially stops with the custody sergeant is an improvement. It's in his/her interest to make sure nothing bad happens on their watch, which is an improvement I think.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> ViolentPanda: Go read some recent history about the police and the events that gave rise to reform over the last few decades. At the moment you don't appear to have enough knowledge to make reasonable comments.



Sorry, had to pause before answering, I was laughing so hard.

Let's just say I know a fair bit about the post-war history of the British police and the British criminal justice system and leave it at that, eh?


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sorry, had to pause before answering, I was laughing so hard.
> 
> Let's just say I know a fair bit about the post-war history of the British police and the British criminal justice system and leave it at that, eh?


Apparently not.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> The fact that the the buck initially stops with the custody sergeant is an improvement. It's in his/her interest to make sure nothing bad happens on their watch, which is an improvement I think.



I agree.
My problem is that my views are informed by my experiences I still remember hearing my (Asian) mate screaming in Streatham police station as his elbow was stamped on (way back in 1980, I should add, before CCTV featured much at all on the UK landscape). I was lucky, I only got a light kicking because I was white and a squaddie, and one of the coppers blurted "don't hurt him too bad, he might bring his mates with him to get revenge". I remember getting crushed by a police horse and batoned by several coppers at Wapping for the crime of showing non-violent solidarity with fellow trade-unionists. I could go on and on, and I don't look for trouble, I do my best to avoid it, pretty much because I look nasty, and that seems to bring out the worst in coppers.

Don't get me wrong, as I said to gavman on another thread, I don't hate coppers. I think ACAB is a counsel of despair. What I hate is the institution they're part of, that covers their arses over and again, and that makes them so cliquey that even the most decent copper will cover for his bent mates rather than protect the people he's supposed to serve.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> Apparently not.



Elucidate, please (if you can). All you've done throughout your contributions on this thread is burble out your unsupported opinions, and make the occasional insinuation. So come on, pony up!


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I agree.
> My problem is that my views are informed by my experiences I still remember hearing my (Asian) mate screaming in Streatham police station as his elbow was stamped on (way back in 1980, I should add, before CCTV featured much at all on the UK landscape). I was lucky, I only got a light kicking because I was white and a squaddie, and one of the coppers blurted "don't hurt him too bad, he might bring his mates with him to get revenge". I remember getting crushed by a police horse and batoned by several coppers at Wapping for the crime of showing non-violent solidarity with fellow trade-unionists. I could go on and on, and I don't look for trouble, I do my best to avoid it, pretty much because I look nasty, and that seems to bring out the worst in coppers.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, as I said to gavman on another thread, I don't hate coppers. I think ACAB is a counsel of despair. What I hate is the institution they're part of, that covers their arses over and again, and that makes them so cliquey that even the most decent copper will cover for his bent mates rather than protect the people he's supposed to serve.


Wake up. We're not in 1980 when you practised your junior leftism. Smell the coffee, it is 2011.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2011)

I'm a little sceptical because Emet says he lives locally and has for ages but can't spell local street names


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> However, if officers walk along the corridor and into a cell they'll be picked up by CCTV and it wouldn't look good. Civilian gaolers or the Custody sergeant get people out of cells or take them food or whatever. If a complaint is made by a detainee and the CCTV is viewed and someone is seen going into the cell they can't explain it away so easily.



Yet we still have instances of CCTV from cars, from vans, from interview suites, from custody suites etc going missing, and mostly only when it's advantageous to the police (remember how the footage of Dub went missing when it looked like the copper who was accusing him of assault would get shown up as a liar?).
Now, this may well be the old "noble cause corruption", where someone is looking after a mate and thinks he's doing the right thing, and that his mate shouldn't face the music for a little out-of-character slip-up, but someone still gets fucked over, and it's not generally the copper(s) involved.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> Wake up. We're not in 1980 when you practised your junior leftism. Smell the coffee, it is 2011.



Have I claimed that we are in 1980?
Nope, so why mention that we're not, if not just to have a carrier for your juvenile remark about leftism.
By the way, I didn't practice leftism in 1980, I was busy defending the likes of you from the Soviet hordes. Political activism wasn't and  isn't allowed to Her Majesty's forces, something a know-all like you *should* know.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I'm a little sceptical because Emet says he lives locally and has for ages but can't spell local street names



Perhaps he's dyslexic, although misspelled street names wouldn't really fit, would it?

I suspect that with a username like that, he's a copper from an east London station.

That or it's that twat-monkey pdxm (remember him, the copper who claimed to have had a "top-tier" university education, but was about as articulate as a bog-brush?) under a new log-in.


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Elucidate, please (if you can). All you've done throughout your contributions on this thread is burble out your unsupported opinions, and make the occasional insinuation. So come on, pony up!


You've given no reason at all for the trend of deaths in police custody, and I have. You were at a demo where you were assaulted. You have my sympathy. I hope you made a formal complaint. Apart from that you seem to have been unaware of domestic current affairs for the last three decades.

What has phone-hacking got to do with deaths in custody?

Repeating your prejudices is no fig-leaf for your ignorance.


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps he's dyslexic, although misspelled street names wouldn't really fit, would it?
> 
> I suspect that with a username like that, he's a copper from an east London station.
> 
> That or it's that twat-monkey pdxm (remember him, the copper who claimed to have had a "top-tier" university education, but was about as articulate as a bog-brush?) under a new log-in.


Not even the pretence of reason now, I see. I'm not a 'copper' nor have I have ever been one. But it is no insult as far I'm concerned.

As it happens, I came to Brixton after serving a sentence in Pentonville Prison. I've lived here for 23 years. I post using only one name, 'Emet', and I've only been a member of urban75 since the 'Clifton Mansions' thread started. I was a squatter in Clifton Mansions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> You've given no reason at all for the trend of deaths in police custody, and I have.



No, you haven't given a reason, you've attributed a lessening of deaths in police custody to "reform", in other words you've made a connection between A and B, but you haven't shown it to have validity or utility. There may be a "commonsense" argument for attributing the one to the other, but you haven't even made that. Ever wondered why a reason is called a reason? It's because you have to use and show reasoning.



> You were at a demo where you were assaulted. You have my sympathy. I hope you made a formal complaint. Apart from that you seem to have been unaware of domestic current affairs for the last three decades.



It's always good to see people using those old devices "seem" and "appear" as filler



> What has phone-hacking got to do with deaths in custody?



Well, we actually weren't just talking about deaths in custody before you decided to grace the thread with your presence, we were talking about corruption (as recently as a handful of posts before your informing us of a report you'd read), and then about brutality after your post



> Repeating your prejudices is no fig-leaf for your ignorance.



Rather than metaphorically thumbing your nose and muttering "ner-ner-ner", how about elucidating my prejudices and my ignorance, so that I can improve myself?

Or is this just more filler to make you feel better about yourself?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Emet said:


> Not even the pretence of reason now, I see.
> Going on your posts to date, I'm not sure you're able to discern what constitutes reason or what constitutes a hole in your arse
> 
> I'm not a 'copper' nor have I have ever been one. But it is no insult as far I'm concerned.



Are you not aware of the difference between speculating on someone's origin and claiming something is true?



> As it happens, I came to Brixton after serving a sentence in Pentonville Prison. I've lived here for 23 years. I post using only one name, 'Emet', and I've only been a member of urban75 since the 'Clifton Mansions' thread started. I was a squatter in Clifton Mansions.



As it happens, so what? Is that supposed to give you cred-points, or something?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps he's dyslexic, although misspelled street names wouldn't really fit, would it?


It's the only misspelling I've noticed which is why I'm a tiny bit sceptical. Locals usually get place names right.


----------



## IC3D (Aug 13, 2011)

CCTV only exists for the prosecution doesn't it, well in my experience, and seasoned cops coach the recruits through the lying in court business. I can't see how you can do anything about it when they hold all the cards.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> It's the only misspelling I've noticed which is why I'm a tiny bit sceptical. Locals usually get place names right.



I'll admit to having spelled Somerleyton Summerleighton Summerleyton that road as many ways as is possible over the last 40+ years, but that's mostly because I can never remember the correct spelling.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2011)

Fair dos, but I don't think you've ever claimed to be a witness to the goings-on on it. You're not even the same postcode I don't think.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Fair dos, but I don't think you've ever claimed to be a witness to the goings-on on it. You're not even the same postcode I don't think.



Nope, I'm SW2 and have been for the last 16 years.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2011)

Ah, a blow-in


----------



## Emet (Aug 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda: I have explained to you how police violence was made to be more visible. Visibility engages with incentives and disincentives for police behaviour. They respond like everyone else to incentives. I mentioned the appearance of a more middle-class intake( I might also have added the intake of ethnic minorities - a decade after Macpherson - at 20% in the Met). It was acknowledged by a wide range of opinion for decades that this would be erosive of the 'canteen culture' that protected so much police brutality and racism. I mentioned the pay and pensions of the police which further limits an inclination to break the rules. Add the recruitment of women. The canteen culture always opposed the recruitment of women. And for good reason, they might militate against it's male brutalist values.

You have offered no explanation to the decline deaths in custody and have just stooped to insults. Your program of self-improvement should include control of a bad  case of knee-jerk.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 13, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Ah, a blow-in


A very local blow-in.  AFAIK he's never lived outside of South London.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 14, 2011)

Emet said:


> Not even the pretence of reason now, I see. I'm not a 'copper' nor have I have ever been one. But it is no insult as far I'm concerned.
> 
> As it happens, I came to Brixton after serving a sentence in Pentonville Prison. I've lived here for 23 years. I post using only one name, 'Emet', and I've only been a member of urban75 since the 'Clifton Mansions' thread started. I was a squatter in Clifton Mansions.



You still never told me if you were Irish or not?


----------



## Emet (Aug 14, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You still never told me if you were Irish or not?


I'm a Londoner, born in Whitechapel. A proper cockney.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 14, 2011)

Emet said:


> I'm a Londoner, born in Whitechapel. A proper cockney.


A wrong un then - born the wrong side of the Thames.


----------



## Emet (Aug 14, 2011)

Greebo said:


> A wrong un then - born the wrong side of the Thames.


Quite foreign.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 14, 2011)

Greebo said:


> A wrong un then - born the wrong side of the Thames.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 14, 2011)

Emet said:


> I'm a Londoner, born in Whitechapel. A proper cockney.



Ah, Irish parents then?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 14, 2011)

Emet said:


> ViolentPanda: I have explained to you how police violence was made to be more visible. Visibility engages with incentives and disincentives for police behaviour.



You explained nothing, you *mentioned* it in passing. Different thing entirely.



> They respond like everyone else to incentives.



Yes, they do. Like everyone else they seek to minimise effort and maximise income.



> I mentioned the appearance of a more middle-class intake( I might also have added the intake of ethnic minorities - a decade after Macpherson - at 20% in the Met). It was acknowledged by a wide range of opinion for decades that this would be erosive of the 'canteen culture' that protected so much police brutality and racism.



Elucidate on this "wide range of opinion", please. Don't worry about mentioning abstruse articles, I've got an ATHENS account.

Oh, and people (however learned) acknowledging *before the fact* is meaningless, so do you mean (as I suspect) that a wide range of opinion over decades *has shown* a more middle-class intake to be corrosive of canteen culture, if so, please give me some references. Shit, I'll even take Reiner if he's all you've to offer!

I mentioned the pay and pensions of t





> he police which further limits an inclination to break the rules.



You did. I believe I presented a counter-argument that given that a majority of "wrong'uns" are allowed to walk away with their pension rights intact, that your point wasn't of great utility.



> Add the recruitment of women. The canteen culture always opposed the recruitment of women. And for good reason, they might militate against it's male brutalist values.



The canteen culture proceeded apace after the recruitment of women became generalised around '74.



> You have offered no explanation to the decline deaths in custody and have just stooped to insults. Your program of self-improvement should include control of a bad case of knee-jerk.



Care to point out where I've insulted you?


----------



## Emet (Aug 14, 2011)

ViolentPanda: OK, so I can't provide any supporting evidence for my claims about this trend in deaths in police custody. My case is quite unproven. Please, tell me about these alternative explanations.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 14, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> The not in cells bit is because of the detainees. Would you want to use the toilet if there was a camera in there? I wouldn't.


But you might like to have an unwarranted "internal examination" recorded in case you wanted to make a complaint!


----------



## CH1 (Aug 14, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> There weren't when I was a Lay Visitor. That's obviously changed


I doubt it has changed. I will put down a question at the Police Consultative Group which Emet finds so pompous and boring.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 14, 2011)

Emet said:


> ViolentPanda: OK, so I can't provide any supporting evidence for my claims about this trend in deaths in police custody. My case is quite unproven. Please, tell me about these alternative explanations.



At its very simplest, all police officers have compulsory CPR training, and have done (nationwide) since the early 1980s. That has made a big difference over the years, just as it has to the falling number of deaths among the general populace due to CPR becoming more widely known-about. If someone stops breathing, every policeman now has the tools to attempt cardiac stimulation and to breathe for the person until skilled medical help arrives.

Then you have the fact that area medical coverage/attendance by doctors to police stations has changed vastly over the last 3 decades - the system, which used to be _ad hoc_, has been increasingly interlocked with general out-of-hours medical coverage, and has led to fewer deaths due to "hidden" injuries.

And yes, of course CCTV has made *some* difference, but it's hardly been the massive factor for change that you've claimed it as. It's been a small part of a complex of reasons why there are less fatalities.

Now, please point out where I've insulted you, as you were happy to claim that I had.


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## London_Calling (Aug 14, 2011)

editor said:


>


Just to say they had "full insurance" and plan to carry on.


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## gaijingirl (Aug 14, 2011)

I spoke briefly to the guy in Nunes today - he was very upset and the theft and damage done to his store.  It's very sad to see a small family run place like that experience this shit.


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## Gramsci (Aug 14, 2011)

Emet said:


> Just one tiny aspect of reform. The police are drawn from different backgrounds, there is cctv everywhere - including police vehicles and stations, confessions were often forced, the police forged statements etc. The brutality of earlier decades was really something to behold. That has changed because it is so visible when it happens.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/aug/21/sean-riggs-police-death-cctv

When this man died in Police custody , surprise surprise, there was no CCTV recording as for some unknown reason  it wasnt working precisely in the part of the station he died. Its his family who light the candles outside the police station.


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## Gramsci (Aug 15, 2011)

Emet said:


> ViolentPanda: I have explained to you how police violence was made to be more visible. Visibility engages with incentives and disincentives for police behaviour. They respond like everyone else to incentives. I mentioned the appearance of a more middle-class intake( I might also have added the intake of ethnic minorities - a decade after Macpherson - at 20% in the Met). It was acknowledged by a wide range of opinion for decades that this would be erosive of the 'canteen culture' that protected so much police brutality and racism. I mentioned the pay and pensions of the police which further limits an inclination to break the rules. Add the recruitment of women. The canteen culture always opposed the recruitment of women. And for good reason, they might militate against it's male brutalist values..



I dont see that much difference. Cressida Dick has just been promoted (again) with the recent resignations in the Police. She was part of the fast tracked high fliers who were supposed to change the Met.

When it came to the shooting of the Brazilian at Stockwell ( she was in charge- "Gold Commander") she covered her arse like any other copper would when it all went wrong.

see here:
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/107362

"How can Londoners have confidence that the police can learn from experience and address institutional failings when Cressida Dick is promoted again to such a pivotal role? 
 "This is despite the critical evidence that emerged at both the inquest and health and safety trial about the quality of her decision making and leadership in the face of a crisis on that fatal day six years ago." 

She is middle class , went to Oxford and is a woman. Ive also been told she is gay. Makes no difference. See link for her background.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cressida_Dick

She was head the the Mets Diversity Directorate at one point:

http://www.eortrial.co.uk/default.aspx?id=1055088

Commander Dick was asked to take on the diversity leadership role following a career break in which she studied for a masters degree in criminology -specialising in race, gender and criminal justice issues. Although not a human resource specialist, she has been in the police service since 1983 and has a broad understanding of policing. She stresses that she has always fought hard for equality, fairness and diversity throughout her career, and so relished the move as an opportunity to back up her words with actions: "I saw it as a chance to really influence things on a large stage."

What a load of bollocks.

All that went out the window when it came to a dead Brazilian.

BTW the link above details all the great works the Met has done for minorities

And the Met pays for there cops to do degrees. The Met are a joke.


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## Gramsci (Aug 15, 2011)

Excellant article by journalist/ commentator Gary Young on the riots. Sadly I think they are accurate analysis:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/14/young-british-rioters-political-actions

But likewise, insisting on economic deprivation, as though that is the sole context and alone explains their motivations, is only marginally less fatuous. While it was the young who took to the streets, this was not a Greek-style uprising, let alone a distant cousin to the Arab spring. Riots can produce tangible, progressive results. But beyond Tottenham, those who took to the streets last week failed to advance any cause, embrace any ideal or articulate any agenda.
This places them firmly in the context of a weak an ineffectual left that has failed to reinvent and reinvigorate itself in the face of a deep economic crisis. It marks a generational failure. In the absence of any community leadership, viable social movements or memory of collective struggle, the most these political orphans could hope to achieve was private acquisition and social chaos.
The fact that their actions were political does not therefore make them wise. The primary consequences will be greater authoritarianism, more police powers and an emboldened far right.


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## Gramsci (Aug 15, 2011)

Emet said:


> I would simply say that there are a fair few community leaders who seem to love the sound of their own voices. A lot of time is wasted. I have only attended on four occasions and I didn't find the experience educational.



Unfortunately that happens a lot around Brixton. Not just at CPCG.


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## Gramsci (Aug 15, 2011)

Emet said:


> Early last Monday morning I saw maybe 200 people - most of them with looted property - march up Barnwell Road and into the council estate by Summerleyton Road. They looked and sounded joyful. Joy is an emotion, isn't it?



As was the case with all previous riots. 

From your argument with CH1 and Violent Panda I take it that you saying that police were brutal some time ago and they have now improved a lot. So, or am I making an assumption?, you think there is no excuse for rioting now but there was then. As there was no other way to object or change the way a community was policed. The same as some others - MP Chuka- say.

I have been looking over the previous riots. Similar things were said as are being said now. That there was no excuse for rioting, that a criminal element took advantage and that others opportunistically looted.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 15, 2011)

Gramsci said:
			
		

> Unfortunately that happens a lot around Brixton. Not just at CPCG.



It's not exclusive to Brixton either.


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## CH1 (Aug 15, 2011)

Talking of hot air - I rate this morning's speeches: Cameron - NIL  Millibean - 2


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## Emet (Aug 15, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> From your argument with CH1 and Violent Panda I take it that you saying that police were brutal some time ago and they have now improved a lot. So, or am I making an assumption?, you think there is no excuse for rioting now but there was then. As there was no other way to object or change the way a community was policed. The same as some others - MP Chuka- say.


 I would say "less understandable in terms of general police violence" rather than "excuse". From what I know of what went on around here in the late 1970's the police are less brutal.


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## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2011)

Fenian said:


> I cannot believe it. I'm at my Dad's and the council (he doesn't live in Lambeth) have put round a leaflet to households on his estate saying they'd help the police by 'generating convictions for any disorder that does occur by sharing CCTV and other intelligence...we will robustly pursue any council tenants who are proved guilty of being involved in criminal activity and will seek evictions where appropriate....this also includes the behaviour of anyone, including children, who currently live or stay with you in your home.'
> 
> Been robbing millions of people and work as a banker? Have another million. Throwing hundreds of thousands on the dole? Well done. Is there a kid in your house who's stolen a pair of trainers? Hand over your house.



There are already housing lawyers discussing thelegal issues around this. It is contestable.See here:

http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2011/08/wandsworth-headed-for-the-naughty-step/


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 16, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> There are already housing lawyers discussing thelegal issues around this. It is contestable.See here:
> 
> http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2011/08/wandsworth-headed-for-the-naughty-step/


Sippenhafttung (kin liability) as used towards the end of the Third Reich.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 16, 2011)

Not that Wandsworth are yet proposing executing entire families but the idea of 'kin liability' is something the Nazis used. It is definitely a form of collective punishment which is expressly forbidden in the UN charter of human rights.


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## Emet (Aug 16, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Not that Wandsworth are yet proposing executing entire families but the idea of 'kin liability' is something the Nazis used. It is definitely a form of collective punishment which is expressly forbidden in the UN charter of human rights.


I dare say there is nothing about kin liability in their tenancy agreements either. This part of the new regime surely has to unravel.


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## Mairead (Aug 16, 2011)

Emet said:


> I dare say there is nothing about kin liability in their tenancy agreements either. This part of the new regime surely has to unravel.


It seems to me that Wandsworth (the Tory 'flagship' Borough) know that this will get kicked out of court and that it will be because of Human Rights legislation. When that happens just watch Cameron and the Daily Mail jump up and down shouting about how this legislation is ruining the country and means we are not safe on the streets etc etc. All grist to the mill . . .


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## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2011)

I was sent this video of young man in South London telling Boris that cuts cause riots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNeYnWL3D9A&feature=share

Two academics have done research showing a correlation between austerity measures and social unrest over last 100 years.

Its should be obvious. But in the law and order backlash at the moment this article is worth a look.I wonder if Clegg has seen it? Link in it to paper by academics:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/16/austerity-programmes-cause-riots


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## CH1 (Aug 16, 2011)

_*Incident of disorder at the Beehive*_
Riot van turned up sat the Beehive at 10.45pm tonight. I was just passing through en route home from the Proms, but was impressed to have the digestion of my "guest ale" assisted by 8 uniformed officers, come to arrest a well established and somewhat obnoxious Beehive regular customer. The person apprehended, small very black and of London Jamaican extraction had apparently fallen out with a similarly small Eritrean being entertained by his solicitor (?!).

The situation was not helped by having a new obviously uncomfortable duty manager - white 35ish - large beer gut - looked as though he would have prefered a posting in Colchester. The only staff member having any empathy with the customers was young Kofi - but being black and of junior rank he was kept well out of the case.

When the plod had escorted the miscreant to the van for transit there was quite an exchange between the police and older Jamaican Beehive customers, who asserted the Eritrean was a "trouble maker". (Don't know what their guy was then - he has reduced wimin to tears on several occasions when I was around). The police wanted to take their names and adressed for further consultations - which they declined.

When the police had gone it all came out - this Eritrean had escorted an Indian battyman who lived 2 floors below one of the Jamaican senior citizens. He even carried the battyman's shopping for him!

Funny how disputes resolve into sexual politics where Jamaica is concerned!


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## gabi (Aug 17, 2011)

my flat's cordoned off again. looks like from kfc on down brix rd to god knows where.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 17, 2011)

CH1 said:


> this Eritrean had escorted an Indian battyman who lived 2 floors below one of the Jamaican senior citizens. He even carried the battyman's shopping for him!


Appreciate your posts but a word to the wise. The term battyman is pretty offensive and can get you into trouble round these parts.


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## CH1 (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Appreciate your posts but a word to the wise. The term battyman is pretty offensive and can get you into trouble round these parts.


Well I didn't use it - I was reporting it verbatim.  As a gay man I find it as offensive as you do.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 17, 2011)

Put quote marks in...didn't realise it was verbatim


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## CH1 (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Put quote marks in...didn't realise it was verbatim


With regard to Wetherspoons Pubs - they are hardly gay friendly, but there does seems to be a gay sub-culture at the Crown & Sceptre top of Brixton Hill. Unfortunately it's not at all "local" for me.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2011)

CH1 said:


> With regard to Wetherspoons Pubs - they are hardly gay friendly, but there does seems to be a gay sub-culture at the Crown & Sceptre top of Brixton Hill. Unfortunately it's not at all "local" for me.



Awful pub.  Absolutely stinking male bogs.  Tiny ladies bogs.  Crap food.  Decent outside seating though if you don't mind all the traffic


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Not that Wandsworth are yet proposing executing entire families but the idea of 'kin liability' is something the Nazis used. It is definitely a form of collective punishment which is expressly forbidden in the UN charter of human rights.



The Government is looking the widen the definition of locality to do this:

The Communities and Local Government department is already reviewing how to make it easier for councils and housing associations to evict tenants convicted of anti-social behaviour. The current definition requires the offence to have been committed within the locality or neighbourhood of the property.
"The government is looking to make changes because there's pressure for more action to be taken," said Marie Constantine, a solicitor with the law firm Judge and Priestley who has represented councils in possession hearings.
"Some councils may also take the view that because anti-social behaviour was committed within the borough, tenants should be evicted or at least sent a warning. The definition of 'locality' may be widened to include anywhere in the borough. Some courts take very different views."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/15/england-riots-poverty-evictions-benefits?INTCMP=SRCH


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## CH1 (Aug 17, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> The Government is looking the widen the definition of locality to do this:
> 
> The Communities and Local Government department is already reviewing how to make it easier for councils and housing associations to evict tenants convicted of anti-social behaviour. The current definition requires the offence to have been committed within the locality or neighbourhood of the property.
> "The government is looking to make changes because there's pressure for more action to be taken," said Marie Constantine, a solicitor with the law firm Judge and Priestley who has represented councils in possession hearings.
> ...


Sorry if you think it's a wind-up, but I can't resist.
All this legal activity reminds me of my O-level history and Judge Jeffries (the hanging Judge) who executed rebels supporting the Duke of Monmouth against King James II (1685).   But what caps it all is that Judge Jeffries was ultimately arrested in the "Town of Ramsgate" pub in Wapping,  now owned by Lord Matthew Oakshott (Lib Dem).  Is this a strange case of "what goes around comes around"?


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## Secateur (Aug 17, 2011)

CH1 said:


> Well I didn't use it - I was reporting it verbatim. As a gay man I find it as offensive as you do.


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## gabi (Aug 17, 2011)

is CH1 for real? If so, new poster of the year... hands down. he makes the beehive sound like the bar in star wars.


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## gaijingirl (Aug 17, 2011)

Yes... I have to say, I am very much enjoying reading CH1's posts.


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## gabi (Aug 17, 2011)

Ugh actually... just had a thought about a long banned poster with a similar tenor from about 2005 who used to drink in there...


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## Mairead (Aug 17, 2011)

gabi said:


> is CH1 for real? If so, new poster of the year... hands down. he makes the beehive sound like the bar in star wars.



I've met CH1 irl and I guarantee he is definitely for real!


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2011)

Sabcat have new T Shirts out:

http://sabcat.com/tshirts/tory-britain-its-a-riot-t-shirt/

http://sabcat.com/tshirts/get-angry-and-riot-t-shirt/


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## magneze (Aug 17, 2011)

^ 4 years in jail


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## quimcunx (Aug 17, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> http://sabcat.com/tshirts/get-angry-and-riot-t-shirt/









Everyone in the country should buy and wear one of these.  They can't jail us all.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 17, 2011)

Red's not my colour


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## quimcunx (Aug 17, 2011)

ok, everyone on facebook should change their status to ''get angry and riot''.  Or post that pic to their wall, or whatevs.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> ok, everyone on facebook should change their status to ''get angry and riot''. Or post that pic to their wall, or whatevs.



I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing it and bumping into someone who had been burnt out of their home or had a family member murdered.

Do think they're funny though


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 17, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing it and bumping into someone who had been burnt out of their home or had a family member murdered.


Well quite, passersby were being viciously beaten and robbed too, nowt to do with rioting, that.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 17, 2011)

I remember Trevor Ellis when he was a boy. Because it's being investigated by Trident there's an assumption that he wasn't an 'innocent victim' but he was.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 17, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Everyone in the country should buy and wear one of these.  They can't jail us all.



It's about time students had something to replace those old che guevara shirts.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2011)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It's about time students had something to replace those old che guevara shirts.


should have an upside down crown mind


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I remember Trevor Ellis when he was a boy. Because it's being investigated by Trident there's an assumption that he wasn't an 'innocent victim' but he was.



Probably not so much that as people thinking if he lived in Brixton, why was he in Croydon, and just assuming he was up to no good


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 17, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Probably not so much that as people thinking if he lived in Brixton, why was he in Croydon, and just assuming he was up to no good


He was in Croydon much earlier, before there was trouble. There were loads of people in Croydon who didn't live there too for non-nefarious purposes. I hadn't seen him since he was a teenager but Pip was still in touch with him as he was an old schoolfriend.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> He was in Croydon much earlier, before there was trouble. There were loads of people in Croydon who didn't live there too for non-nefarious purposes. I hadn't seen him since he was a teenager but Pip was still in touch with him as he was an old schoolfriend.



I'm not wondering why he was there.  It's as normal for South Londoners to go to Croydon as it is for them to go to the West End.  I'm saying that's what other people might be thinking (judging by comments I've seen on websites), and I doubt it helps that the papers probably haven't stated he was there before it all kicked off.  Maybe they have, but I've not read any papers for a while, just bits and pieces online


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 17, 2011)

I realised you weren't having a pop Minnie, it's just been a bit of a preoccupation since Pip heard just after it happened.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I realised you weren't having a pop Minnie, it's just been a bit of a preoccupation since Pip heard just after it happened.



Very sad.  Local lad as well and with a few (or did I read 4) kids?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 17, 2011)

Four children, yes.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 17, 2011)

The general feeling is that a gang of armed people tried to rob the car (there were several instances of this in Croydon, including an elderly woman who was dragged from her car) and then a car chase ensued (two cars containing a total of 9 men chasing the car Trevor was in) ending in Trevor being shot dead. I've only got these details third-hand though.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> The general feeling is that a gang of armed people tried to rob the car (there were several instances of this in Croydon, including an elderly woman who was dragged from her car) and then a car chase ensued (two cars chasing the car Trevor was in) ending in Trevor being shot dead. I've only got these details third-hand though.



Quite possibly.  Did you see that video of the person dragged off their scooter?  Was on the news today.  First time I'd seen it


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 17, 2011)

I didn't, the radio reports are bad enough. I find stuff like that really distressing.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I didn't, the radio reports are bad enough. I find stuff like that really distressing.



Not nice at all.  Not like he was scooter-jacked (if that's a word) in a little quiet side road, it was in full view of loads of people


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> Red's not my colour



If u go on there website u can choose a colour and size. A friend of mine has got one ( the Cameron one) and they are well made. All for a good cause.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 17, 2011)

I might send some to my family in Ireland


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2011)

This one is funny as well:

http://sabcat.com/tshirts/panic-wildly-and-run-away/


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2011)

magneze said:


> ^ 4 years in jail



One of them who was jailed was clearly pissed when he did it as he deleted it next morning. What next bring back hanging for rioters?

One T shirt Sabcat dont do is the Clapham yummy mummy favourite "Looters are scum".


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> He was in Croydon much earlier, before there was trouble. There were loads of people in Croydon who didn't live there too for non-nefarious purposes. I hadn't seen him since he was a teenager but Pip was still in touch with him as he was an old schoolfriend.



I have an a friend who was born in Stockwell but moved further South later on. A lot of people come and go from Croydon and Brixton/ Stockwell as they still have family here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/13/uk-riots-two-arrested-suspicion-murder


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## Gramsci (Aug 18, 2011)

To put Sabcats humourous T shirts in context here is a Naomi Klein piece. Argentina had mass looting of supermarkets after the Government imposed austerity package on ordinary people around 2001.

Argentina's mass looting was called _el saqueo_ – the sacking. That was politically significant because it was the very same word used to describe what that country's elites had done by selling off the country's national assets in flagrantly corrupt privatisation deals, hiding their money offshore, then passing on the bill to the people with a brutal austerity package. Argentines understood that the _saqueo_ of the shopping centres would not have happened without the bigger _saqueo_ of the country, and that the real gangsters were the ones in charge. But England is not Latin America, and its riots are not political, or so we keep hearing. They are just about lawless kids taking advantage of a situation to take what isn't theirs. And British society, Cameron tells us, abhors that kind of behaviour.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/17/looing-with-lights-off


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## CH1 (Aug 24, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I got that wrong then. Getting riots mixed up. The flats were burnt out in 1985. I agree it was a preview of Croydon. None of this has been mentioned when some politicians ( Lambeth Labour , Chuka) have been trying to say that the riots back then were different.
> 
> good photo CH1


I got another one of Brixton furniture shop on the corner of Gresham Road/Coldharbour Lane burning down in 1985 (in the Guardian 19/8/11)
The article can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/3no5hbg


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## editor (Aug 24, 2011)

CH1 said:


> I got another one of Brixton furniture shop on the corner of Gresham Road/Coldharbour Lane burning down in 1985 (in the Guardian 19/8/11)
> The article can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/3no5hbg


The guy who ran the hardware shop behind the furniture shop wrote to me a while back and described their experiences on the day and said they were lucky to emerge more or less unscathed.


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