# Night & Day: Manchester music venue sweating on noise court hearing outcome because of one posh resident



## editor (Nov 29, 2022)

For FUCK'S sake



> More than 94,000 people have signed a petition to remove a Noise Abatement Notice issued by Manchester City Council last year. On Tuesday, the owners will appear at Manchester Crown Court to appeal against it.
> The row with the council centres on a complaint from a new flat-owner in an adjoining property, a warehouse recently converted for residential use. And if found in breach, the 31-year-old family-run institution could end up having to close its doors.











						Night & Day: Manchester music venue sweating on noise court hearing outcome
					

The owners of Night & Day are in court to appeal against a Noise Abatement Notice from the council.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Glitter (Nov 29, 2022)

This happens to them regularly. It’s a disgrace


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## killer b (Nov 29, 2022)

In the Manc thread, Raheem said this relates to them playing loud music outside their licensed hours, which (if true - the various news stories on it don't seem to give the precise details of the complaint) does put a different perspective on things. 


Raheem said:


> Yeah, music venues should be able to operate as music venues without facing complaints for noise.
> 
> A few years ago, Night and Day was threatened with closure due to a complaint, but it won in the end.
> 
> It doesn't look to me like this is the same sort of case though, although it's understandable for the owners to lay it on thick. The council don't seem to be threatening them with closure, but telling them they have to stick to their licenced hours for music, which you can hardly expect them not to do, can you?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2022)

editor said:


> For FUCK'S sake
> 
> 
> 
> ...


from 26 october 2022 

City Council statement on Night and Day | Manchester City Council


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2022)

Glitter said:


> This happens to them regularly. It’s a disgrace


tbh if it happens regularly to them either the council are being particularly mean to them or they're actually doing something wrong. and being as the council say they want to work with the venue to mitigate the situation my money's on them doing something they shouldn't be. it's not like someone complains and whoops the council farts out a noise abatement notice, they've got to investigate and find something before they'd do that. i'll leave this here What to do when served with a Noise Abatement Notice?. just as an overview of what one lot of solicitors says on the matter


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## killer b (Nov 29, 2022)

It's only happened once before tbf, it just feels like it happens loads because this same complaint & case has repeatedly made the headlines over the last couple of years


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## killer b (Nov 29, 2022)

(it's been a really impressive media campaign by the Night and Day if nothing else)


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## Raheem (Nov 29, 2022)

killer b said:


> In the Manc thread, Raheem said this relates to them playing loud music outside their licensed hours, which (if true - the various news stories on it don't seem to give the precise details of the complaint) does put a different perspective on things.


To be clear, I don't know anything with certainty, but I'm making a few educated guesses. 

I had some involvement with N&D, but it's over a decade ago now. I also exchanged some emails with them about 7 years ago when they previously had to deal with a noise complaint.

They used to have a curfew, which I think was midnight on schoolnights and later - perhaps 1am - on Fri/Sat. They didn't necessarily close, but the music stopped. There may have been occasional breaches, but I think staff had access to a cut-off switch to enforce it.

Tbh, I don't know if this was a licencing condition, some other agreement with the council, or even just the venue's own policy.

Anyway, it looks likely to me that the issue is that the venue might be in breach of something, or at least that something has changed from how it used to be.

It's not on to move somewhere like Oldham Street and expect it to change to suit you. Obviously. But I think the situation isn't the same if you move in somewhere thinking "midnight I can cope with" and then over time it creeps forward to 4 am.

I'm not taking sides against Night and Day and I definitely wouldn't want its existence threatened, just I'm not totally sure that is what is happening.


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## killer b (Nov 29, 2022)

Raheem said:


> To be clear, I don't know anything with certainty, but I'm making a few educated guesses.
> 
> I had some involvement with N&D, but it's over a decade ago now. I also exchanged some emails with them about 7 years ago when they previously had to deal with a noise complaint.
> 
> ...


The owner talks about having to do club nights to subsidise the live music, which I think is a new(ish) thing, so that makes sense to me. Most of the grassroots venues I know have to do other stuff to make ends meet (club nights, tribute acts etc) cause not enough people are interested in small band nights atm


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## Raheem (Nov 29, 2022)

killer b said:


> The owner talks about having to do club nights to subsidise the live music, which I think is a new(ish) thing, so that makes sense to me. Most of the grassroots venues I know have to do other stuff to make ends meet (club nights, tribute acts etc) cause not enough people are interested in small band nights atm


Yes, maybe they really do need the extra income to keep solvent. That would make it a tricky situation.


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## editor (Nov 29, 2022)

killer b said:


> The owner talks about having to do club nights to subsidise the live music, which I think is a new(ish) thing, so that makes sense to me. Most of the grassroots venues I know have to do other stuff to make ends meet (club nights, tribute acts etc) cause not enough people are interested in small band nights atm


Most of the venues I've played around the UK recently can't wait to usher out the band as they have a DJ night starting immediately after. It's rubbish for bands as you don't often get chance to chat to the fans after, but I totally understand why they do it. 

A lot of places and promoters will make more money just by having DJ nights but they put on bands because they want to support live music. I'm very much the same.


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## killer b (Nov 29, 2022)

yeah - long term I think it's self-defeating if you want to remain a live music venue, but doors are still down from covid for live events everywhere so you can understand them going for some safer cash right now


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## Part 2 (Nov 30, 2022)

Continuing today...









						Night and Day owner tells court in tears venue could close after noise complaint
					

"I'm at a loss as to why I'm sat here in a courtroom."




					www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk


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## editor (Nov 30, 2022)

Part 2 said:


> Continuing today...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A club which has played a massive part in Manchester's culture could be closed down because of One. Newly. Arrived. Fucking. Person. Couldn't they see they were moving right next door to a live music venue?


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

editor said:


> A club which has played a massive part in Manchester's culture could be closed down because of One. Newly. Arrived. Fucking. Person.


the situation seems to be a bit more complex than this tbf


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## editor (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> the situation seems to be a bit more complex than this tbf


Unless I've read it wrong, it's only one flat complaining.

They should be suing the developer who failed to adequately soundproof their groovy pad. Or the council for not making adequate provision when they approved the development.


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

No, there's more than one. And it's probably not true that they would have to close down if they had to limit the noise after midnight or whatever it is they're being asked to do. And being the bar that launched Elbow means that in the balance they're a negative influence on manchester's culture


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## editor (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> And being the bar that launched Elbow means that in the balance they're a negative influence on manchester's culture


What an infantile comment. Hundreds of other bands have played there and whether they got your snobby approval or not is totally irrelevant.


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

that bit was obviously a joke I thought?


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

either way, you could read the thread where the more nuanced reality of the situation is discussed by people who actually have some knowledge of the venue and stake in Manchester's music scene, rather than the just taking the florid pronouncements of the venue owner on trust.


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## twistedAM (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> either way, you could read the thread where the more nuanced reality of the situation is discussed by people who actually have some knowledge of the venue and stake in Manchester's music scene, rather than the just taking the florid pronouncements of the venue owner on trust.


where do we find this?


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## pbsmooth (Nov 30, 2022)

there have been clubs on Oldham Street for decades that have stayed open til early hours.


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## Raheem (Nov 30, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> there have been clubs on Oldham Street for decades that have stayed open til early hours.


Yes, there have, and I don't think anyone would say you should be entitled to unlimited peace and quiet if you live there. 

It's a specific thing with Night and Day that there are three flats that share an actual wall with it. Probably a bit of a development fail.

Possibly the proper solution would be the housing association having to buy back those flats, but I doubt there's a way of bringing that about.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2022)

editor said:


> A club which has played a massive part in Manchester's culture could be closed down because of One. Newly. Arrived. Fucking. Person. Couldn't they see they were moving right next door to a live music venue?


For the hard of thinking: this has nothing to do with live music. As you'd know if you read the statement from the council. It's frankly uncomfortable seeing you bluster away like this when facts to the contrary have been posted. Uncomfortable but by no means unprecedented


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## ska invita (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> that bit was obviously a joke I thought?


Its funny cus it's true


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Probably a bit of a development fail.


absolutely this - the venue's own acoustic expert is quoted saying the only solution would be to create some kind of floating box on springs within the flat - it shouldn't have been given planning permission in the first place.


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

I feel for the neighbour anyway - it's one thing to move in next to a live music venue in a vibrant city centre, it's quite another to have your windows vibrating in their frames to the sound of _Don't Look Back In Anger _until 4am every friday and saturday night


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## editor (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> I feel for the neighbour anyway - it's one thing to move in next to a live music venue in a vibrant city centre, it's quite another to have your windows vibrating in their frames to the sound of _Don't Look Back In Anger _until 4am every friday and saturday night


So you think the venue should be forced to close early/close altogether (it may well add up to the same thing) because the levels of vibrancy were higher than expected?


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

I think it's a difficult situation that isn't aided by the rhetoric being thrown around about it. The main people at fault are the developers and the planning authorities though, and the poor guy who's spent hundreds of thousands of pounds on a flat he can neither sleep in or sell is not really the villain of the piece.


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## editor (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> I think it's a difficult situation that isn't aided by the rhetoric being thrown around by it. The main people at fault are the developers and the planning authorities though, and the poor guy who's spent hundreds of thousands of pounds on a flat he can neither sleep in or sell is not really the villain of the piece.


Yes, but you haven't answered my question. How would _you_ like to see it practically resolved?


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

editor said:


> Yes, but you haven't answered my question. How would _you_ like to see it practically resolved?


If the Night and Day is acting outside the terms of their license or agreed noise levels as is being alleged, then hopefully them sticking to the terms of their license and agreed noise levels should practically resolve it. If in fact they are operating within the terms of their license and agreed noise levels, the court should find in their favour and it'll all be sorted. If they can't operate within the terms of their license or agreed noise levels without going bust then I guess they aren't actually a viable business.


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## editor (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> If the Night and Day is acting outside the terms of their license or agreed noise levels as is being alleged, then hopefully them sticking to the terms of their license and agreed noise levels should practically resolve it. If in fact they are operating within the terms of their license and agreed noise levels, the court should find in their favour and it'll all be sorted. If they can't operate within the terms of their license or agreed noise levels without going bust then I guess they aren't actually a viable business.


Except that lack of 'viability' has only come about by the trendy flats being built next door, long, long after they were already operating.



> Smithson said there had only been two other complaints about loud music from the venue in its 31-year history, one of which was believed to be a blackmail attempt



And here's where the problem lies:


> Jay Taylor, chair of Greater Manchester’s music commission, a body set up by mayor Andy Burnham, said closing Night & Day would be devastating for live music across the region.
> 
> He added: “With regards to the council, they should admit the mistakes that were made when that development went in and remove that noise abatement order, and then make good on that problem – which was a developmental problem, not a problem with the business that exists next door.”





> The northern quarter, which was dangerous and dilapidated in the early 90s, is now one of the most sought-after urban living areas in Britain. A penthouse apartment in the warehouse next door costs £440,000. Several other flats are advertised on the same street for upwards of £300,000 – far out of reach for many locals.












						‘It would be the death of culture’: Manchester’s Night & Day venue faces moment of truth
					

Court battle over noise complaint will decide future of famous music club, which has hosted Johnny Marr, the Charlatans, Arctic Monkeys and Ed Sheeran




					www.theguardian.com


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## Raheem (Nov 30, 2022)

It is difficult to say what the solution should be without knowing every last detail tbh.

But I think there's a clue in the fact that the flats were originally let in 2002, and there wasn't a complaint until 2014. That's 12 years of people living there without a problem.

So what changed?


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

editor said:
			
		

> Except that lack of 'viability' has only come about by the trendy flats being built next door, long, long after they were already operating.


The complaint from the neighbours is that the night and day are operating outside their agreed noise levels late at night. Should all venues be able to play music as loud and late as they like if they think they need to to make ends meet? 


editor said:


> Despite what you said earlier, it seems it is all down to one resident who's recently moved in:


there's reference to multiple complainants in some news stories, including the court report in the MEN from today. Many of the media reports on the story are basically just repeating the night and day's version of events, which is disputed.


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## twistedAM (Nov 30, 2022)

Raheem said:


> It is difficult to say what the solution should be without knowing every last detail tbh.
> 
> But I think there's a clue in the fact that the flats were originally let in 2002, and there wasn't a complaint until 2014. That's 12 years of people living there without a problem.
> 
> So what changed?


New occupant of the flat?


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## pbsmooth (Nov 30, 2022)

Raheem said:


> It is difficult to say what the solution should be without knowing every last detail tbh.
> 
> But I think there's a clue in the fact that the flats were originally let in 2002, and there wasn't a complaint until 2014. That's 12 years of people living there without a problem.
> 
> So what changed?


previous tenant was deaf?


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## Raheem (Nov 30, 2022)

twistedAM said:


> New occupant of the flat?


As mentioned above, there are three flats adjoining N&D.


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## twistedAM (Nov 30, 2022)

Raheem said:


> As mentioned above, there are three flats adjoining N&D.



Have all three complained? I assumed it was one flat that complained. Apologies if wrong.


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## klang (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> that bit was obviously a joke I thought?


shame


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

klang said:


> shame


I do think it too though tbf. The list of leaden indie bands who seem to have got their start there is not a list I'd use to demonstrate how vital a venue is to a city's music scene


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## MickiQ (Nov 30, 2022)

twistedAM said:


> New occupant of the flat?


Makes no odds a new occupant has the same rights to peace and quiet as someone who predated the venue and the fact that only one has complained is enough. Nor is the number of people who have signed a petition relevant since they don't have to live next to it. How many bands got their start there is also not relevant. Other bands will have to get their start somewhere else if they can't get it there.

With killer b on this.
If the venue is not breaking the terms of its license then the complainant should stop complaining.
If they are breaking the terms then they should abide by them.
If they can't without going bust then they should go bust.


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> I think it's a difficult situation that isn't aided by the rhetoric being thrown around about it. The main people at fault are the developers and the planning authorities though, and the poor guy who's spent hundreds of thousands of pounds on a flat he can neither sleep in *or sell *is not really the villain of the piece.


He probably could sell it. After all some Muppet bought it in the first place.


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## twistedAM (Nov 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Makes no odds a new occupant has the same rights to peace and quiet* as someone who predated the venue* and the fact that only one has complained is enough. Nor is the number of people who have signed a petition relevant since they don't have to live next to it. How many bands got their start there is also not relevant. Other bands will have to get their start somewhere else if they can't get it there.
> 
> With killer b on this.
> If the venue is not breaking the terms of its license then the complainant should stop complaining.
> ...


So someone can move in next to a nightlife business and try it get it closed down?
Out of interest does anyone know if it is rented accommodation or someone purchased it?


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

Raheem said:


> It is difficult to say what the solution should be without knowing every last detail tbh.
> 
> But I think there's a clue in the fact that the flats were originally let in 2002, and there wasn't a complaint until 2014. That's 12 years of people living there without a problem.
> 
> *So what changed?*


A Muppet moved in.


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## MickiQ (Nov 30, 2022)

twistedAM said:


> So someone can move in next to a nightlife business and try it get it closed down?
> Out of interest does anyone know if it is rented accommodation or someone purchased it?


Yes they can and it doesn't matter whether its rented or bought.


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Makes no odds a new occupant has the same rights to peace and quiet as someone who predated the venue and the fact that only one has complained is enough.


Sorry that's ridiculous. So if someone complains about the noise after moving into a house next to Heathrow or the M25 then they should be shut down?

What about the Muppet townies that move to the country and complain about the smell. Should farms have to close as well?

If you want to live some where peaceful don't move next to a fucking music club.


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Yes they can and it doesn't matter whether its rented or bought.


First house I looked at buying I was told by the solicitor I couldn't complain about the noise from the factory at the end of the street.


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> He probably could sell it. After all some Muppet bought it in the first place.


I'm sure the flat that's in all the newspapers this week because it's sound insulation is so poor you can clearly hear the music from the venue next door until 4 in the morning should be no problem to sell at all.


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## MickiQ (Nov 30, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> First house I looked at buying I was told by the solicitor I couldn't complain about the noise from the factory at the end of the street.


Presumably they were keeping to the terms of their license then or possibly the house was built with a covenant which may or may not be totally enforceable. Did you ask him why?


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> First house I looked at buying I was told by the solicitor I couldn't complain about the noise from the factory at the end of the street.


You'd be within your rights to complain if they started operating 24 hours without warning or permission having previously operated 9-5 tho


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## Part 2 (Nov 30, 2022)

Do we know for certain that the complaining resident is posh?


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## kebabking (Nov 30, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> He probably could sell it. After all some Muppet bought it in the first place.



Not now - when selling it you've got to declare any disputes with neighbours over noise etc... And this, now it's splashed all over the internet, is unlikely to slip under the radar.


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## Raheem (Nov 30, 2022)

Part 2 said:


> Do we know for certain that the complaining resident is posh?


No, but they might well be.

Originally, they were housing association flats designed for people on modest incomes, but with shared ownership options, so you could eventually own outright if you wanted to. It was slightly before you needed a lot of money to live somewhere like that. I would bet most of the original tenants did this and then sold, though, so that would make it social housing only historically. But idk, they might be one of the original tenants. 

Not sure how much it affects the issues, though, except fairly cheaply in terms of perception.


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Presumably they were keeping to the terms of their license then or possibly the house was built with a covenant which may or may not be totally enforceable. Did you ask him why?


I was told it was because the factory was already there so I couldn't complain about something that should be obvious.

Same goes for those Muppets that buy a house next to a church then complain about the bells.


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> You'd be within your rights to complain if they started operating 24 hours without warning or permission having previously operated 9-5 tho


Yes you could but that doesn't appear to apply to the venue in question.


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

kebabking said:


> Not now - when selling it you've got to declare any disputes with neighbours over noise etc... And this, now it's splashed all over the internet, is unlikely to slip under the radar.


Noise should be obvious if moving next door to a music venue though. Property may appeal to music lovers or the deaf.


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Yes you could but that doesn't appear to apply to the venue in question.


The complainant and the council claim the venue is operating outside it's agreed licensing terms and noise level agreements. Have you read the thread?


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## MickiQ (Nov 30, 2022)

The council has presumably been round with their little meters and took measurements, they wouldn't have gone to all this trouble if they didn't think there was a problem.
Clearly the developer who did the flats has been a bit of a wide boy but that doesn't distract from the tenants rights.


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> The complainant and the council claim the venue is operating outside it's agreed licensing terms and noise level agreements. Have you read the thread?


Yes I have read the thread. I was responding to your comment about switching from 9-5 to 24 hour operation which the venue hasn't done.

I can't see that it's operating outside it's licensing terms if it previously had late night music previously or is the Muppet complaining about the occasional 5 min overrun?

Regardless planning permission shouldn't have been granted without substantial sound proofing to the flats.


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## MickiQ (Nov 30, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Noise should be obvious if moving next door to a music venue though. Property may appeal to music lovers or the deaf.


I would have thought that myself but it may not have all that obvious if he/she viewed it during the day. I presume the flat is one of those in the grey building next door


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Clearly the developer who did the flats has been a bit of a wide boy but *that doesn't distract from the tenants rights.*


Shouldn't apply in this case. Can't see you getting away with that if you built a house in the middle of an industrial estate or in-between a set of sidings in a rail depot. 

Councils have distinct development plans so you can't build residential property in an industrial / commercial area or a factory etc in the middle of a residential area. How is this area of MCR classified?


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Yes I have read the thread. I was responding to your comment about switching from 9-5 to 24 hour operation which the venue hasn't done.


Nor is it a factory at the end of your road.


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Shouldn't apply in this case. Can't see you getting away with that if you built a house in the middle of an industrial estate or in-between a set of sidings in a rail depot.
> 
> Councils have distinct development plans so you can't build residential property in an industrial / commercial area or a factory etc in the middle of a residential area. How is this area of MCR classified?


there's quite a lot of housing in the northern quarter


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I would have thought that myself but it may not have all that obvious if he/she viewed it during the day. I presume the flat is one of those in the grey building next door
> View attachment 353600


A quick Google for the place, the first line says "hosts to local and international bands". So unless they are running a silent disco it should be blatantly obvious there would be noise. Clearly the nimby Muppet didn't do any research.


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> Nor is it a factory at the end of your road.


A pub/club directly next door should be clearly visible unlike the factory near the first house I looked at unless the Muppet is blind.


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> there's quite a lot of housing in the northern quarter


Fair enough. It might be classed as a mixed area but if you don't want to put up with noise from a pub/club or the noise from revellers then don't buy a place next to one. Hardly the clubs problem the householder is a Muppet.


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## Raheem (Nov 30, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> A pub/club directly next door should be clearly visible unlike the factory near the first house I looked at unless the Muppet is blind.


Yes, but the main issue (or seems to be) that it didn't used to be normal for N&D to host DJs until 4am. I can tell you for a fact that it didn't. If someone bought the flat some years ago, they will have not bought it with that expectation.


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## Sue (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> I feel for the neighbour anyway - it's one thing to move in next to a live music venue in a vibrant city centre, it's quite another to have your windows vibrating in their frames to the sound of _Don't Look Back In Anger _until 4am every friday and saturday night


Yeah, happened near where I used to live in Oxford. What had been a bingo hall for decades (so all over by 9:30/10pm and not noisy) was turned into a club/venue that was open till 3am or something.

It was in the middle of a residential area and in that case, I completely got why people living next to it were pissed off as it really wasn't what they signed up for when they moved there. Didn't last for long -- think there was quite a lot of trouble associated with it -- and it's now a Pentecostal mega church or something.


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Yes, but the main issue (or seems to be) that it didn't used to be normal for N&D to host DJs until 4am. I can tell you for a fact that it didn't. If someone bought the flat some years ago, they will have not bought it with that expectation.


That's fair enough if that's the case. But from the articles I've seen it's just a complaint about the noise not how long it goes in for.


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> That's fair enough if that's the case. But from the articles I've seen it's just a complaint about the noise not how long it goes in for.


it's about the volume of the noise, and the noise going on til 4 in the morning.


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## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2022)

Sue said:


> Yeah, happened near where I used to live in Oxford. What had been a bingo hall for decades (so all over by 9:30/10pm and not noisy) was turned into a club/venue that was open till 3am or something.
> 
> It was in the middle of a residential area and in that case, I completely got why people living next to it were pissed off as it really wasn't what they signed up for when they moved there. Didn't last for long -- think there was quite a lot of trouble associated with it -- and it's now a Pentecostal mega church or something.


Too right they should have complained in those circumstances. Might not have got planning permission if enough had complained during the planning process.


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

the main complainant spoke to the MEN last year - Resident speaks out over Night and Day noise row



> "The issues I face are not really the gigs - it’s with the club nights," he said.
> 
> "Different DJs running until 3am at least twice a week - but they can run until 4am.
> 
> ...


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## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 30, 2022)

Fuck me there’s some people on this thread who really need to read the actual details of this particular case.


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## editor (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> I do think it too though tbf. The list of leaden indie bands who seem to have got their start there is not a list I'd use to demonstrate how vital a venue is to a city's music scene


Oh fuck off with your music snobbery. A healthy music scene in Manchester has got absolutely fuck all to do with your personal tastes.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2022)

killer b said:


> either way, you could read the thread where the more nuanced reality of the situation is discussed by people who actually have some knowledge of the venue and stake in Manchester's music scene, rather than the just taking the florid pronouncements of the venue owner on trust.


Indeed. But where's the fun in that?


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## killer b (Nov 30, 2022)

editor said:


> Oh fuck off with your music snobbery. A healthy music scene in Manchester has got absolutely fuck all to do with your personal tastes.


Thankfully the live music aspect of the Night & Day's output doesn't seem to be under threat, so we won't be denied the next The 1975. Thank god.


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## pbsmooth (Nov 30, 2022)

where has the "posh" come from?


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## emanymton (Nov 30, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> where has the "posh" come from?


Don't know about posh but anyone who can buy a flat in the centre of Manchester and then spend 17 grand on sound insulating it is not likely to be hurting for money.


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## kebabking (Nov 30, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> where has the "posh" come from?



Only posh people enjoy sleep - the PFWC rub caustic soda into their eyes to stay awake all night.


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## twistedAM (Nov 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Yes they can and it doesn't matter whether its rented or bought.


It does


MickiQ said:


> The council has presumably been round with their little meters and took measurements, they wouldn't have gone to all this trouble if they didn't think there was a problem.
> Clearly the developer who did the flats has been a bit of a wide boy but that doesn't distract from the tenants rights.



Saw a report from today that the Council deleted the file with all the meter readings in it. Manchester City Council isn't coming out of this well in either direction.


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## friedaweed (Nov 30, 2022)

anyway we di this twice on the all things manc thread









						A Manchester thread for all things Manc
					

Had a look at the new Mayfield Park this afternoon, it's pretty awesome.




					www.urban75.net


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## editor (Nov 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> The council has presumably been round with their little meters and took measurements, they wouldn't have gone to all this trouble if they didn't think there was a problem.


No, that's not necessarily true at all. They often go around with meters in response to a complaint, but their presence absolutely does not mean there is a problem _at all. _


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## Raheem (Nov 30, 2022)

twistedAM said:


> Saw a report from today that the Council deleted the file with all the meter readings in it.


Stop the steal!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2022)

editor said:


> No, that's not necessarily true at all. They often go around with meters in response to a complaint, but their presence absolutely does not mean there is a problem _at all. _


You're saying a noise abatement notice absolutely doesn't mean there is a problem at all. You've changed your tune since the op


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## twistedAM (Nov 30, 2022)

To be continued on 17 January.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2022)

twistedAM said:


> To be continued on 17 January.


15 pages by xmas


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## editor (Nov 30, 2022)

twistedAM said:


> To be continued on 17 January.


It's going to be difficult for the venue if they still don't know if they have a viable future or not.

The developer and the council should be in court, not the club owner.


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## editor (Nov 30, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You're saying a noise abatement notice absolutely doesn't mean there is a problem at all. You've changed your tune since the op


Despite me having you on ignore for over a year or so, and me never replying to any of your endless petty personal digs, it seems you just can't stop  yourself showboating away. I won't be giving you the reaction or response you so clearly crave but if you continue this behaviour, I'll ask the mods if mutual ignore would be a better option. If you wish to discuss this further, kindly this take it to the mods forum.

Oh and goodbye.


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## Raheem (Nov 30, 2022)

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/eurythmics-lyrics-heard-night--25644579
At least it wasn't There Must Be An Angel.


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## editor (Nov 30, 2022)

emanymton said:


> Don't know about posh but anyone who can buy a flat in the centre of Manchester and then spend 17 grand on sound insulating it is not likely to be hurting for money.


It was £21,000 apparently (according to article above)


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## editor (Nov 30, 2022)

Raheem said:


> https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/eurythmics-lyrics-heard-night--25644579
> At least it wasn't There Must Be An Angel.


The council are all over the place on this


> Sarah Clover, representing Night and Day, said the member of staff's version of events from the night was different to the council's - and CCTV showed him going to turn the music down after the conversation. Neither Ms Banbrick and Mr Mathers still had the notes they took on their phones on the night, with both claiming their notes were written into their statements.
> 
> Ms Banbrick wrote a statement five days later, but Mr Mathers' statement was written in April. Ms Clover said: "That's sloppy at best, suspicious at worst... it's particularly unacceptable when the council's case is founded on things that people have supposedly said and done on that night."
> 
> ...


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## bellaozzydog (Nov 30, 2022)

When I bought my flat in the vicinity of a night club I couldn’t even get a mortgage due to its proximity to said club (night time economy) 

But I bought it anyways. 0400 kick outs are noisy and chaotic I bought a big bag of ear plugs for the summer craziness.

The reporting is painting a picture of
A single complainant. Which is a bit sus. On the news up here they are reporting that the bloke has really really made a meal of his “health” being effected


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## emanymton (Nov 30, 2022)

editor said:


> It was £21,000 apparently (according to article above)


The other MEN article said at least 17k. Maybe they spent more since? A lot of Money either way.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2022)

editor said:


> Despite me having you on ignore for over a year or so, and me never replying to any of your endless petty personal digs, it seems you just can't stop  yourself showboating away. I won't be giving you the reaction or response you so clearly crave but if you continue this behaviour, I'll ask the mods if mutual ignore would be a better option. If you wish to discuss this further, kindly this take it to the mods forum.
> 
> Oh and goodbye.


Take this to the mods forum?  Yeh give me access and we'll chat there. You haven't had me on ignore for more than a year, as your replies to my posts over that period show. Eg this from 3 Sept Opinion: "The End of Meat Is Here"  - NY Times you said you were going to ignore me for a couple of days in April this year, search your posts if you don't believe me. More than a year? Tosh. You've replied to me 30+ times in the period you claim you've had me on ignore and "not been responding to me". Don't see how you can ask for mi in good conscience given the divergence between what you say and the facts


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## twistedAM (Nov 30, 2022)

editor said:


> It's going to be difficult for the venue if they still don't know if they have a viable future or not.
> 
> The developer and the council should be in court, not the club owner.


I don't envy the booker as band agents will be wary about the viability of the business. Lots of tours being booked for May at the moment.


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## Raheem (Dec 1, 2022)

editor said:


> The council are all over the place on this


I wouldn't interpret it that way. It seems like the council workers have been out to the flat various times with mixed findings. It might be that they're prone to confusion, but I think it's more likely that the level of noise coming through the wall is just not constant, consistent or predictable. If so, that means two things:

1) The idea that the resident complaining is living through an unending hell of thud thud thud throughout the night might be overstating it.

2) If N&D can be a viable business without being a noise nuisance some of the time, there's probably no good reason why it needs to be a noise nuisance at all. Ergo, the issue might just be that N&D has to accept it has a responsibility to control the level of noise it emits.

The thing that bugs me, to be honest, it the idea of a wealthy business women launching a social media campaign to demonise a random joe, in an attempt to steamroller the council.

The complainant has a right to complain, and they might even have a point. If they don't, there's a process to decide. But they're within their rights either way. And what they get is half of Manchester, plus plenty of people who've never been to Manchester, calling them a cunt on social media, whipped up by a bullying campaign unleashed by someone who is guilty of a much greater degree of poshness than they probably are.


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## killer b (Dec 1, 2022)

twistedAM said:


> I don't envy the booker as band agents will be wary about the viability of the business. Lots of tours being booked for May at the moment.


the only reason anyone would be wary of the viability of the night and day's business is because the business themselves made this dubious claim a key plank of their current media campaign


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## twistedAM (Dec 1, 2022)

killer b said:


> the only reason anyone would be wary of the viability of the night and day's business is because the business themselves made this dubious claim a key plank of their current media campaign


You obviously don't like the place but dubious is a bit harsh given the current economic climate especially the energy prices and increased staffing and talent costs post-Covid.
I think why this gets emotional is people are seeing it as an issue of having city centre nightlife versus city centre property developers always getting their way and the latter are always going to have deeper pockets. Raheem's comments on poshness are very interesting in this respect though.


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## killer b (Dec 1, 2022)

The developing in this case was done almost a quarter of a century ago, I don't think they're involved at all.  It's city centre residents interests vs city centre business interests - there's always going to be occasional tensions between these two groups in a mixed area like the northern quarter (although tbf I'm only aware of the Night and Day having issues - but I guess they might just have the most effective media campaigns). I don't think automatically supporting the businesses in these cases without carefully looking at what else is going on is very fair is all.


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## WouldBe (Dec 1, 2022)

Raheem said:


> https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/eurythmics-lyrics-heard-night--25644579
> At least it wasn't There Must Be An Angel.


Right so on 2 visits by the council they felt the noise wasn't a nuisance but on the third visit they 'felt' it was a nuisance even though they didn't bother to measure the sound levels. 

Also planning permission stated that the sound level in the bedroom should be no higher than 35dB which is just over a whisper so clearly the developer didn't comply with the planning permission.


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## editor (Dec 1, 2022)

Raheem said:


> The thing that bugs me, to be honest, it the idea of a wealthy business women launching a social media campaign to demonise a random joe, in an attempt to steamroller the council.


How wealthy is she, exactly? There aren't many independent venues raking it in these days.


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## WouldBe (Dec 1, 2022)

There's a thread on here about buying a house asking what the process is and for advice. Some of the advice given is to visit the area at different times of day and night to see what it's like and to talk to neighbours (may be difficult with it being flats). Muppet clearly hasn't done his research and now wants to complain about the noise. 

There is a pub that has loud music several times a week that's no more than 200m from my house and you can sometimes hear it through closed double glazed windows albeit quiet. Have I complained in the 26 years I've lived here? Am I likely to complain in my remaining time here, however long that may be? No. Because I knew there was a fucking pub just down the road.

Wouldn't have thought there would be so many nimbys on these boards.


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## Part 2 (Dec 1, 2022)




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## killer b (Dec 1, 2022)

Part 2 said:


> View attachment 353766


I'm interested to know what conversations you're having elsewhere that's resulted in this document ending up in your hands tbh.


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## killer b (Dec 1, 2022)

I'll admit I'm not an expert at reading company accounts, but that doesn't_ look_ like the accounts of a venue at risk of going under if it has to turn the volume down a bit after midnight


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## Part 2 (Dec 1, 2022)

killer b said:


> I'll admit I'm not an expert at reading company accounts, but that doesn't_ look_ like the accounts of a venue at risk of going under if it has to turn the volume down a bit after midnight


I'm just nosey and it's all on companies house. I'm no financial expert either but they look to be quite healthy accounts. She should probably buy the flat.


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## editor (Dec 1, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> There's a thread on here about buying a house asking what the process is and for advice. Some of the advice given is to visit the area at different times of day and night to see what it's like and to talk to neighbours (may be difficult with it being flats). Muppet clearly hasn't done his research and now wants to complain about the noise.
> 
> There is a pub that has loud music several times a week that's no more than 200m from my house and you can sometimes hear it through closed double glazed windows albeit quiet. Have I complained in the 26 years I've lived here? Am I likely to complain in my remaining time here, however long that may be? No. Because I knew there was a fucking pub just down the road.
> 
> Wouldn't have thought there would be so many nimbys on these boards.


When I moved into in Brixton, I knew there'd be all night parties and noise. And there's been lots of those and while I may have moaned about some people _really_ taking fucking liberties, I have never, ever lodged a noise complaint and never will.


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## bellaozzydog (Dec 1, 2022)

editor said:


> When I moved into in Brixton, I knew there'd be all night parties and noise. And there's been lots of those and while I may have moaned about some people _really_ taking fucking liberties, I have never, ever lodged a noise complaint ad never will.


One of my favourite early hours activities is hanging out my window breaking up street beatings with my insanely powerful sexy strobe torch 
klarus XT21X 4000 Lumen Rechargeable Torch, 316Metres Beam Distance Powerful Tactical Torch, IPX8 Waterproof Flashlight​I can see the bouncers laughing as drunk as fuck punchy punters try and work out where the police helicopter is 

If I complained about the noise my neighbour pub/club manager)  would revoke my boozer dog walking privileges 

Sometimes I just shout “Jesus is watching you!”


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## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 9, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> He probably could sell it. After all some Muppet bought it in the first place.


Except if the current owner puts it on the market they are now legally obliged to declare any neighbour disputes, which might make it undesirable to prospective purchasers.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2022)

bellaozzydog said:


> One of my favourite early hours activities is hanging out my window breaking up street beatings with my insanely powerful sexy strobe torch
> klarus XT21X 4000 Lumen Rechargeable Torch, 316Metres Beam Distance Powerful Tactical Torch, IPX8 Waterproof Flashlight​I can see the bouncers laughing as drunk as fuck punchy punters try and work out where the police helicopter is
> 
> If I complained about the noise my neighbour pub/club manager)  would revoke my boozer dog walking privileges
> ...


I think you've walked past me in the street


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## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 9, 2022)

Raheem said:


> https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/eurythmics-lyrics-heard-night--25644579
> At least it wasn't There Must Be An Angel.


That article mentioned a 35db limit.

I've read another article (sorry, don't have a link) that mentioned that limit but also that measuring noise by the DJ desk resulted in a max of 34db being recorded. Although I've also read in other articles too that the council lost/failed to keep notes/records. (Shambolic, but that's the council for you.)

If that's the case, it would seem that the venue was arguably keeping within the limit, but I guess the human brain doesn't make that distinction, doesn't have a neat cut-off point whereby 34db doesn't cause a disturbance, doesn't interfere with sleep, but do so as soon as it hits 35db. 

Also, maybe 34db would be all right, if the developers hadn't cheapskated and fucked up the sound insulation? They should be held responsible for that and made to fund remedial works.

(Although the music venue trust has called for the council to buy the flat.)


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## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 9, 2022)

Raheem said:


> I wouldn't interpret it that way. It seems like the council workers have been out to the flat various times with mixed findings. It might be that they're prone to confusion, but I think it's more likely that the level of noise coming through the wall is just not constant, consistent or predictable. If so, that means two things:
> 
> 1) The idea that the resident complaining is living through an unending hell of thud thud thud throughout the night might be overstating it.
> 
> ...


I read an article that mentioned a limit of 35db being in place. But council officers had measured noise of 34db. So it probably won't matter if they stick to the letter of the law, if the noise is approaching the limit, they're going to get complained about. Because the residents were finding it unbearable even when not in breach. And the article shared above in this thread mentions two visits when the noise didn't breach limits. So the residents are clearly of the attitude/belief that the noise is interfering with their sleep/'quiet' enjoyment of their flat, even when the venue hasn't breached the noise limit. And that's due to the developer's failures. And the council's failures to enforce the planning consent stipulations.


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## Fuzzy (Dec 10, 2022)

bellaozzydog said:


> Sometimes I just shout “Jesus is watching you!”


hilarious. does it work?


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## Fuzzy (Dec 10, 2022)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> That article mentioned a 35db limit.
> 
> I've read another article (sorry, don't have a link) that mentioned that limit but also that measuring noise by the DJ desk resulted in a max of 34db being recorded. Although I've also read in other articles too that the council lost/failed to keep notes/records. (Shambolic, but that's the council for you.)
> 
> ...


in realith there isn't a noticeable difference between 34db and 35 dB.


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## Fuzzy (Dec 10, 2022)

> Planning policies and decisions should ensure that new development can be integrated effectively with existing businesses and community facilities (such as places of worship, pubs, music venues and sports clubs). Existing businesses and facilities should not have unreasonable restrictions placed on them as a result of development permitted after they were established. Where the operation of an existing business or community facility could have a significant adverse effect on new development (including changes of use) in its vicinity, the applicant (or ‘agent  of change’) should be required to provide suitable mitigation before the development has been complete



this paragraph from the national planning policy framework is pretty clear that it's the responsibility of the incoming user/person affected to sort out noise, not the existing user. not sure why the council have employed this argument.
[/QUOTE]


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## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 10, 2022)

Fuzzy said:


> in realith there isn't a noticeable difference between 34db and 35 dB.


That was my point. That having an arbitrary cut-off point is always going to be problematic because of that. Because if the noise is 34 or 35 decibels, the impact is likely to be the same/very similar. (Although isn't the dB scale logarithmic?)

And it also depends on individual people's hearing. A level of 34db might be annoying to some and disrupt their sleep, but another resident who has some level of hearing impairment or hearing loss - which might've been something they were born with or acquired at some point in their life or just happened naturally as their hearing degenerated with age - might not suffer sleep disturbance because of it?


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## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 10, 2022)

34dB is _incredibly_ quiet, and an utterly ridiculous target for any sort of city centre location. The usual background level in most suburban homes will be significantly higher than that. For context, a beautifully quiet library would be around 40dB or more.


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## spitfire (Dec 10, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> 34dB is _incredibly_ quiet, and an utterly ridiculous target for any sort of city centre location. The usual background level in most suburban homes will be significantly higher than that. For context, a beautifully quiet library would be around 40dB or more.



Exactly. That would be impossible to achieve. Is that what it says in their licence?

I’m lying in bed, in a basement at the back of a house with no traffic outside. Just a helicopter in the far distance and this is what my (admittedly not calibrated and free) app reads.


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## spitfire (Dec 10, 2022)

spitfire said:


> Exactly. That would be impossible to achieve. Is that what it says in their licence?
> 
> I’m lying in bed, in a basement at the back of a house with no traffic outside. Just a helicopter in the far distance and this is what my (admittedly not calibrated and free) app reads.
> 
> View attachment 355058



If I hold my breath it gets to just below 40dB. Briefly!


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## editor (Dec 11, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> 34dB is _incredibly_ quiet, and an utterly ridiculous target for any sort of city centre location. The usual background level in most suburban homes will be significantly higher than that. For context, a beautifully quiet library would be around 40dB or more.


I can't believe any one would set such a ridiculously low limit for a city centre


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## DaphneM (Dec 11, 2022)

The relevant bits send to be this

the town hall would not withdraw the notice because the venue has not taken any steps to address the noise nuisance.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> The relevant bits send to be this
> 
> the town hall would not withdraw the notice because the venue has not taken any steps to address the noise nuisance.



Or, the people who built flats next to a music venue didn't put in adequate soundproofing and now the venue is being punished for this.


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## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 12, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> 34dB is _incredibly_ quiet, and an utterly ridiculous target for any sort of city centre location. The usual background level in most suburban homes will be significantly higher than that. For context, a beautifully quiet library would be around 40dB or more.


I've been looking at buying a dehumidifier and some of them at 30-odd db, some 40+.


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