# Has Anyone Had Any Experience With A4E?



## xsunnysuex (Nov 27, 2013)

I,m currently in the work related activity group of ESA.  My job centre advisor has told me I have to go to a "information session" with A4E.  Because I have a 24mth prognosis, he says I can't be forced to go with them.  But I have to attend the information session and then choose whether I want to go with A4E or stay with the job centre advisor.
I haven't got a clue what would be best,  so if anyone has any experience of A4E I would love to hear it please.  I have to make it known though that it's not an easy option to stay with my job centre advisor.  Every time I see him I get hints of sanctions thrown at me.  I dread every meeting I have with him.  He doesn't seem to make any allowances for my health problems at all.
Anyone?


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## DotCommunist (Nov 27, 2013)

just go, be patronised by some halfwit and jump through the hoops. 

its bollocks but if you don't go they'll stop your money


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## xsunnysuex (Nov 27, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> just go, be patronised by some halfwit and jump through the hoops.
> 
> its bollocks but if you don't go they'll stop your money


I am going to the information session.  Advisor made it clear I have no choice in that.  But after the information session I have to decide whether to stay with the job centre,  or start going to A4E instead.
Like jumping from the fire into the frying pan.  But with which one will I get the least burnt?


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## likesfish (Nov 27, 2013)

Got a part time call centre job out of them and a bicycle £150 worth of clothes and £50 of sainsburys vouchers so not utterly useless


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## xsunnysuex (Nov 27, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Got a part time call centre job out of them and a bicycle £150 worth of clothes and £50 of sainsburys vouchers so not utterly useless


Not bad.   Are they very pushy?


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## likesfish (Nov 27, 2013)

Not really but that was years ago they probably tightened up whats a 24month prognosis sounds bad?


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## xsunnysuex (Nov 27, 2013)

likesfish said:


> 24month prognosis sounds bad?


 
lol no,  it's not bad.  It means I was placed in the work related activity group for 24mths after going to tribunal.  They call it prognosis.


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## likesfish (Nov 27, 2013)

Thank fuck for that
  If theirs some crappy job going with a legit company they will push you towards it.
   But the really shit employers won't jump through a4es hoops or cant
 But in the era of work trials its time to sort yourself out  Good luck your need it


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## RedDragon (Nov 27, 2013)

xsunnysuex said:


> lol no,  it's not bad.  It means I was placed in the work related activity group for 24mths after going to tribunal.  They call it prognosis.


How long do you have before your next atos review? I think the final year is when your advisors calls you in, the initially introductory agency stuff you have to go to but I believe it's only when you're in your final 6 months pre-review does it become mandatory.

If you feel your health problems make it difficult to attend put in appeal against being put into the  work related activity group - I did and won, but my surgery wounds were oozing blood during my advisor reviews.  and tbh my advisor was massively helpful in helping me appeal. However, come the new year I've got to go through more surgery and yet another atos review.


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## xsunnysuex (Nov 27, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> How long do you have before your next atos review? I think the final year is when your advisors calls you in, the initially introductory agency stuff you have to go to but I believe it's only when you're in your final 6 months pre-review does it become mandatory.



Sadly my time is nearly up.  I had my last medical Dec 2012.  But my JC advisor said I can't be forced to go to A4E.  Maybe he was wrong about that?  I don't know.


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## RedDragon (Nov 27, 2013)

xsunnysuex said:


> Sadly my time is nearly up.  I had my last medical Dec 2012.  But my JC advisor said I can't be forced to go to A4E.  Maybe he was wrong about that?  I don't know.


It that case are the interviews with him voluntary?  If he not going to force you on to a scheme, then that's a good thing - it could give you the time to focus on your next atos review.


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## xsunnysuex (Nov 27, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> It that case are the interviews with him voluntary?  If he not going to force you on to a scheme, then that's a good thing - it could give you the time to focus on your next atos review.


Not voluntary, no.  I have to see him every month.  But if I decide to go to A4E I've no idea what i'll be forced into.


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## likesfish (Nov 27, 2013)

if you have a good plan of what you want a4e might be able to help but if you have no idea bohica applies
   They get cash to make you do something
  Find something you can or want to do and get them pony up cash yo help you do what you wanted to do anyway.


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## UrbaneFox (Nov 28, 2013)

They might pay for CPD, so if there's a course you are vaguely interested in, wave the details at them. Work Directions (now Ingeus) paid for passports.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Nov 28, 2013)

Don't sign anything. You have no contractual arrangement with these spivs. If they threaten you with loss of benefits that constitutes duress.
No one can legally consent to anything under duress.
Your contractual arrangements are with the DWP, signing any documents such as an action plan essentially enters you into a contractual arrangement with these spivs.


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## Frances Lengel (Nov 28, 2013)

Obviously go to the info thing coz you've got no choice about that, but after that I reckon I'd be inclined to stay with the JC, solely because A4E are a private company leeching off unemployed people/those on the sick & fuck letting those spivs make any money out of me if I can help it.


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## UrbaneFox (Nov 28, 2013)

The JC loathes companies like A4E, so the fact that you are avoiding them will stand you in good stead.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Nov 28, 2013)

The Brixton office is a disgrace. Incompetence, dishonesty and bullying on a scale that cannot be believed until it rubs up against you, backed up by equally incompetent regional managers and executives at head office who refuse to accept that there are serious problems at their Brixton office. Although they have made some minor alterations to the manner in which that office conducts its business.
At least one member of staff employed at the Brixton office has recently been sacked or chose to resign.


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## iona (Nov 28, 2013)

Maybe I just got really lucky, but I got sent to A4E a couple of years ago and I told them at that intro thingy that I couldn't fucking cope with it and they just went "ok then, we'll make you an appointment for a few months time but just phone if you don't feel like you can come." Never had to see them again, and I got put in the support group later that year. They have been sending threatening letters since then because I haven't turned up to non-existent appointments though, so I think they were just too lazy and incompetent to deal with me rather than actually giving a shit. I take it talking to them doesn't normally work?


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## JohnBoy69 (Nov 29, 2013)

I am sure A4E got done for sending someone for a job as a lap dancer <<here>>, They also lost a big contract from the government last year <<here>> and recently staff were done for fraud <<here>>.


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## pogo 10 (Nov 29, 2013)

xsunnysuex said:


> I am going to the information session.  Advisor made it clear I have no choice in that.  But after the information session I have to decide whether to stay with the job centre,  or start going to A4E instead.
> Like jumping from the fire into the frying pan.  But with which one will I get the least burnt?


Just go to a for e, do what they say. Youll be alright. Your advisor sounds a right cunt.


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## Hocus Eye. (Nov 29, 2013)

likesfish said:


> if you have a good plan of what you want a4e might be able to help but if you have no idea bohica applies
> They get cash to make you do something
> Find something you can or want to do and get them pony up cash yo help you do what you wanted to do anyway.


I had to look up bohica in the Urban Dictionary. I had almost guessed is meaning from the context though.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 29, 2013)

A4E  is  an anime subbing group..


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## JohnBoy69 (Nov 29, 2013)

I would say do not join A4E the job centre basically want you off their books and it will look better for their stats to say you are in some sort of training.

You are on ESA read the government website <<here>> I think there are a few things you can do to keep your advisers happy.

1. Sign up to some sort of level one or level two course that you like. I did photography level one and said I was looking to re-train as a photographer. It looks great as you are trying to make an effort to get back into work by re-training.

2. Get some part-time work. You need to look like you are trying to get back into work. Your ESA is not affected if you earn up to £20 a week look in the governments own site <<here>>.  The only work you will guarantee to get with no grief is online market research. It is classed as genuine part-time work option as it allows you to earn some money and plus it is within the NMW. You will not get enough work from market research to earn over £20 a week and it will keep them happy. You are trying to get back into work and by doing this you are making positive steps to get yourself into the working environment. They are easy to find on UJM (Universal Jobmatch).

3. Likesfish is right anyone can get free clothes for an interview. You just say to the job centre adviser I don't have a suit or shirt for an interview and they will give you a voucher. You need to prove you have an interview.

4. DO NOT join A4E. Do the initial introduction thing but they are just trying to get you off their books. Do the things to keep them happy to stay on their books. My sister is disabled and she nearly lost all hear benefits at one point for doing something stupid like this. She just made herself ill again. It's such a shame for genuine people on ESA.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Nov 29, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Got a part time call centre job out of them and a bicycle £150 worth of clothes and £50 of sainsburys vouchers so not utterly useless


 
You get a free bicycle?


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## King Biscuit Time (Nov 29, 2013)

The women who owns it's husband owns a brewery that makes some really nice beer. Only downside is that it leaves a bit of a Tory taste in the mouth.


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## likesfish (Nov 29, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You get a free bicycle?


 Yes transport for work they had £300 to spend on getting somebody ready for work (probably a hell of a lot more but you get what you can get).
  So got a bike and a load of work clothes some sainsburys vouchers as well.


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## xsunnysuex (Nov 29, 2013)

Hmm.  I received a letter to call A4E to make my appointment for the information session.  The bloke sounded nice.  Told me "We arn't here to force you into work.  There will be no pressure"  Crap I'm sure.  And my A4E office in in Brixton.
The problem is,   staying with the job centre advisor fills me with dread also.  I suffer from depression and agoraphobia,  but my advisor doesn't really seem to make allowances for that.  Due to shit that happened in the past,  I am stuck living here with no friends or relatives around me.  The only person that can help is my brother.  But even he lives in Surrey.
I can't go out alone.  Or travel on public transport.
My brother has been great.  But he works full time, and his employers are getting pissed off with him taking time off to come with me to see my advisor.  My advisor said "surely you must have someone else that can come with you.  Surrey isn't that far away"  But I can't force people to come with me.


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## xsunnysuex (Nov 29, 2013)

Bloody hell.  I was told about going to A4E by my advisor on Monday.  Had a call from them Tues night.  Spoke to them again on Wed morning.  Now I've just come home to a letter from them bollocking me for not getting in touch to arrange my appointment.  Letter also says they have tried on numerous occasions to contact me.  Lying bastards.
So,  now I see for myself how it will be if I go with them.


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## equationgirl (Nov 29, 2013)

By the way, there is a subforum about benefits and all things connected with them in the employment forum, so you might want to get the thread moved over there. There's also old threads about A4e, especially on their data management policies.


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## Lazy Llama (Nov 29, 2013)

<Moved thread to Education and Employment forum as that seems more appropriate>


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## equationgirl (Nov 29, 2013)

Keeps everything in the same place then, makes it easier for people to find.


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## Jackobi (Nov 29, 2013)

Stick with the Jobcentre, A4E is a Work Programme provider (companies that do very little for vast sums of public and European funding). By agreeing to attend A4E, you are joining the failed Work Programme.

You've already had experience of A4E's ineptitude, 'not getting in touch' when you have been, 'trying on numerous occasions to contact you' when you know that is a lie. It might be absurdly funny that such a 'successful' (through, sometimes fraudulently, claiming corporate welfare) company can be so disorganised, but this type of maladministration can lead to your benefits being sanctioned, stopped completely.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Nov 29, 2013)

I would also suggest to the OP, those being mandated onto the Work Programme and other reading this thread that you limit the personal information you provide to the DWP/JobCentre Plus because of Section 3 of the Social Security Act (1998) which allows the DWP/JobCentre Plus to pass on all personal information they hold about you on electronic databases and structured paper based filing systems to spivs like A4e.

The Data Protection Act (1998) is of limited use to an individual, but in my case has been successful, in preventing spivs like A4e exploiting for commercial purposes this information.
Information you have given to DWP/JobCentre Plus such as home telephone numbers can be deleted from their databases once you formally withdraw consent for them to hold that data. You do not need to explain why you have withdrawn consent.
The problem with Section 3 of the Social Security Act (1998) is that express consent is not required and i believe even implied consent is not required to pass on personal information to commercial third parties.
You can find out what information the DWP/JobCentre Plus have about you by issuing them with a Subject Access Request (SAR)
This a proven method to stop spivs like A4e harassing you on the phone, everything must be done in writing, thus you have a record.

If the OP or anyone else is not in a time limited group whereby they required to join the Work Programme i would strongly suggest you refuse any voluntary suggestions.

I'm a bit drunk at the moment but can post with more clarity soon.


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## Jackobi (Nov 29, 2013)

xsunnysuex said:


> But I can't force people to come with me.



MIND are very supportive in my local area, a few people I know are allocated Support Workers who attend Jobcentre interviews with them, help to fill in forms and offer other assistance. Although, when I've recommended them in the past, they haven't been as responsive in other localities.

It could be worthwhile finding out if any local organisations can provide you with a Support Worker. Your Jobcentre adviser should be advising you of these possibilities rather than palming you off on the Work Programme. If he isn't the Disability Employment Adviser, you should request to see the DEA who should have details of local organisations offering support services.

If he is the DEA, he's not advising very well.


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## toggle (Nov 29, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> If he is the DEA, he's not advising very well.



Impression I get is that having a DEA is in a lot of cases because they have to tick some boxes, not actually provide useful support. Bakunin is getting some advice from a local council run service and mentioning the job center DEA gets either an almost concealed  or a silent pause and subject change. noticible enough that an aspie picked up when it was pointed out to him, but not noticable enough that i felt able to directly push for an opinion from her.


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## Pingu (Nov 30, 2013)

A4E may have some new guidelines out soon for PTSD given what happened in Liverpool last week. Mate of mine (ex army - bad PTSD cos of Bosnia and some other shit) threatened to throw the A4E guy out of a 4th floor window after he made a joke about how PTSD isn't really a disability... Got as far as shoving the guys head and shoulders out before he was stopped.


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## Frances Lengel (Nov 30, 2013)

Pingu said:


> A4E may have some new guidelines out soon for PTSD given what happened in Liverpool last week. Mate of mine (ex army - bad PTSD cos of Bosnia and some other shit) threatened to throw the A4E guy out of a 4th floor window after he made a joke about how PTSD isn't really a disability... Got as far as shoving the guys head and shoulders out before he was stopped.



Liked not coz of your mate having PTSD, but coz of the image of some A4E trumpet being stuffed stuffed out of a window  Poor guy probably didn't deserve it but fuck him, nice one - Hope the courts look/looked leniently on your mate.


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## equationgirl (Nov 30, 2013)

Liked for the A4E muppet realising the consequences of his flippant comments on those with disabilities. Hope your mate is ok after this Pingu and hasn't been arrested or anything.


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## Pingu (Nov 30, 2013)

he is expecting to be invited for a chat at the police station but so far its not happened.


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## Yata (Dec 1, 2013)

stay well clear my only experience was a few years back when i was on JSA you had to go on the A4E programme if you didnt find work after a certain time. 
they cramped about 30 of us into a room and we were supposed to sit there every day from 8 to 3 doing various bullshit things like a quiz where the "advisors" (prison guards) actually gave out the answer sheet first instead of the questions, they then said ok forget what you've just read and we did the quiz anyway. that was pretty much all we did all day aside from getting everyone to introduce the person opposite.
one of the advisors did nothing but talk about how he went to drama school with some bloke off coronation street and the other argued with some ex-cons who were there. 
oh and a trained pilot/hypnotherapist who (rightly so) said the whole thing was a scam to get the unemployment numbers down by locking us all in a room and calling it training. he was told that he should have trained in something better (he was probably about 55-60) 
i have depression and agraphobia/anxiety issues too and it was torture being cramped in the room like that with all these different personalities arguing it out (mainly due to boredom) so i didnt go back and a day or 2 later my money was stopped. luckily someone at the JC was keeping tabs on me and got me onto IS(now ESA) 

bit of a ramble but that experience really put me off A4E, maybe they dont do things this bad anymore (this was 2007) and this was the JSA side of things rather than the ESA/IS but yeah I'd stay away unless you have a specific plan for what you want them to do for you. Even then I wouldnt bother tbh, definitely try to get in touch with MIND or similar as theyre much more qualified and willing to help IME


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## toggle (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh, you've just reminded me, someone I used to know worked as a trainer on one of the previous incarnations of one of these schemes. She qualified to do this because of her expereince running her own buisness, (that and a cousin was managing this particular office) and the people who supported her encouraged her to pay out for self help courses and motivational lectures and they had her all convinced she was going to make enough to retire by the time she was 40. and this job was just a bit of a way to spend time until the money started rolling in. but I'm sure someone who was taken in hook line and sinker by amway was going to do great at supporting unemployed people to find work until her dreams came true


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## StoneRoad (Dec 1, 2013)

Not personally, no.
But I'm in regular contact with a JC+ placement advisor whose opinion of them is unrepeatable in polite company!
If you can avoid getting placed with them, then I would do so, better the devil that you already know!


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## xsunnysuex (Dec 2, 2013)

I have to go to an About You interview. Do I have to fill in the About You quesionaire and sign it? Am I able to refuse to sign it?


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## stuff_it (Dec 3, 2013)

xsunnysuex said:
			
		

> Not voluntary, no.  I have to see him every month.  But if I decide to go to A4E I've no idea what i'll be forced into.



Take a list of questions with you for the a4e people, including things like what you would be expected to do and how often.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Dec 7, 2013)

xsunnysuex said:


> I have to go to an About You interview. Do I have to fill in the About You quesionaire and sign it? Am I able to refuse to sign it?



“…there is no mandatory requirement for participants on the Work Programme to sign action plans, health and safety documents, sign in sheets or acceptable behaviour documents and participants will not be sanctioned if they do not sign the documents. ”https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/161931/response/392997/attach/html/3/Reply FOI2301.pdf.htmlFrom: DWP Central FoI Team  – 23 May 2013

http://refuted.org.uk/2013/11/05/sign/


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## Dexter Deadwood (Dec 23, 2013)

xsunnysuex How did you get on at the induction?


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## xsunnysuex (Dec 23, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> xsunnysuex How did you get on at the induction?



Haven't been yet.  Had an appointment for 17th Dec.  Then got a letter changing it to 15th Jan.


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## equationgirl (Dec 23, 2013)

xsunnysuex said:


> Haven't been yet.  Had an appointment for 17th Dec.  Then got a letter changing it to 15th Jan.


Keep everything they send you, just in case they claim you didn't turn to the appointment and try to get you sanctioned.

Best of luck for the appointment though - read the thread about sharing your data with them before you go.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 28, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> “…there is no mandatory requirement for participants on the Work Programme to sign action plans, health and safety documents, sign in sheets or acceptable behaviour documents and participants will not be sanctioned if they do not sign the documents. ”https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/161931/response/392997/attach/html/3/Reply FOI2301.pdf.htmlFrom: DWP Central FoI Team  – 23 May 2013
> 
> http://refuted.org.uk/2013/11/05/sign/


I started with Salvation Army Employment Plus in April 2012 and never got round to being asked to fill in an action plan or anything beyond a basic and hopeless assessment. Hopeless because they ignored the meantal health issues I raised and went off on one when i declined to give them ownership of my CV. I think if I'd refused to sign an action plan (which i fully intended) they would have shat themselves.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 7, 2014)

Is it possible to issue a Subject Access Request (SAR) at private companies like A4e?
I want to obtain copies of internal emails (both local office and head office) which discuss a complaint i have made against the company and these emails would contain elements of my personal data. The reason i wish to obtain copies of these emails is because i believe they may also contain libelous comments about me and expose a degree of collusion amongst staff. They also fibbed to the Independent Case Examiner.

Perhaps the correct route would be to also issue the Independent Case Examiner with a Subject Access Request but they may not have these emails or be aware of them although they make reference to some them in their ruling. A ruling that agreed with me but found against me.


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## savoloysam (Apr 7, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Is it possible to issue a Subject Access Request (SAR) at private companies like A4e?
> I want to obtain copies of internal emails (both local office and head office) which discuss a complaint i have made against the company and these emails would contain elements of my personal data. The reason i wish to obtain copies of these emails is because i believe they may also contain libelous comments about me and expose a degree of collusion amongst staff. They also fibbed to the Independent Case Examiner.
> 
> Perhaps the correct route would be to also issue the Independent Case Examiner with a Subject Access Request but they may not have these emails or be aware of them although they make reference to them in their ruling. A ruling that agreed with me but found against me.



You should be able to make a request and you will have to put in writing exactly the information you require. Just like any SAR i guess.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 9, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> You should be able to make a request and you will have to put in writing exactly the information you require. Just like any SAR i guess.



It might just have to be a well worded speculative letter, if nothing else it may scare them a bit a tie up some of their resources. They have all the clocks but i have all the time.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 30, 2014)

They really don't have a clue.

After fifteen months of legal arguments i finally attended an induction appointment this afternoon.
I refused to complete and sign any documents and was told it "would count against me", that i "was refusing to participate in the Work Programme." I asked for this to be put in writing but the flustered induction officer refused and left the room several times to seek advice. I asked for a line manager who was variously, at lunch, out of the building, in a meeting.

Eventually another member of staff, who refused to tell me her job title on the grounds that i was refusing to complete the forms , tried to get me leave the room and go into a private room for a discussion , i refused and informed her that i was happy in the public room and if she insisted on a conversation in a private room i would need to record the conversation on an electronic device. She decided the public room was fine. She then insisted i sign the documents, again i refused stating that Labour Market Decision Making and Appeals (LMDMA) have already made a ruling on this but she would not accept this and told me "i would be sanctioned."

She asked me to return the documents to her, i refused. I told her i would be taking them with me to consider at my leisure and to perhaps seek secondary legal advice  I was totally in control by this point and was determined to take the documents with me to score a point. She told me the documents were covered by the Data Protection Act (1998) given that there was no data on them she was plainly wrong and became increasingly frustrated with me at one point storming out of the room. I put the documents in my briefcase 

When she returned she said she was going to call security if i did not return the forms, i had no problem with that but asked her to also call the police (she refused) because if the security officer made any attempt to prevent me from leaving the building there may be grounds for a criminal charge of common assault and/or false imprisonment. The situation was explained to the security officer and another two members of staff that were much more reasonable, they then dismissed the security officer and we continued to have a conversation about consent, privacy and our lack of a contractual arrangement.

They agreed i could take the documents with me but they also informed me that they would also be raising a doubt but they would do it honestly They agreed with me that i had participated in the induction but that i had not completed it. I dispute the later part. I'm still laughing too hard at the moment but am considering formulating a complaint against at least two members of staff, just for the hell of it. There was a clear attempt to intimidate me into returning the forms and duress was applied when i declined to complete and sign them.

I would welcome any comments and advice on my legal position, have i made any mistakes?


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 11, 2014)

With regards to my above post i have had a rely from the local office Business Leader quoting section 3 of the Social Security Act (1998) which i don't dispute but it has nothing to do with consent regarding induction documents and my refusal to enter into a contractual arrangement with A4e. They can have the data and information about myself held by the DWP, i'm fine with that. I don't like it but i accept it. A4e don't have my consent express or implied to gather, store or share any personal data or information beyond what they are legally entitled to under Section 3 of the Social Security Act (1998).

I will be in real trouble if A4e offer me a job


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## farmerbarleymow (May 12, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> With regards to my above post i have had a rely from the local office Business Leader quoting section 3 of the Social Security Act (1998) which i don't dispute but it has nothing to do with consent regarding induction documents and my refusal to enter into a contractual arrangement with A4e. They can have the data and information about myself held by the DWP, i'm fine with that. I don't like it but i accept it. A4e don't have my consent express or implied to gather, store or share any personal data or information beyond what they are legally entitled to under Section 3 of the Social Security Act (1998).
> 
> I will be in real trouble if A4e offer me a job


It's a bit late/early but let me have a think about this and I'll reply later today. But your post of 30th April made me laugh - I bet they were furious!


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 12, 2014)

farmerbarleymow said:


> It's a bit late/early but let me have a think about this and I'll reply later today. But your post of 30th April made me laugh - I bet they were furious!



They were livid on the day  They almost caused a breach of the peace  I'm going down the complaint route (still drafting it) regarding April 30th because i believe i have reasonable grounds and i wish to labour their resources. I feel confident i am correct but would truly welcome any advice you could offer because it is scary to fight alone.


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## farmerbarleymow (May 12, 2014)

No worries. I'll help where I can, including drafting if you like. I know many others have had crap with this system so might have some good advice too. Clare De Lune went through something similar and got her MP involved, although I think the circumstances might have been different.


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 12, 2014)

farmerbarleymow said:


> No worries. I'll help where I can, including drafting if you like. I know many others have had crap with this system so might have some good advice too. Clare De Lune went through something similar and got her MP involved, although I think the circumstances might have been different.



Thank you, if you don't mind in the morning may i PM a you a copy of the letter i sent them? It might be useful to others to post it here as well, just need to edit out my persnal info.


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## farmerbarleymow (May 12, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Thank you, if you don't mind in the morning may i PM a you a copy of the letter i sent them? It might be useful to others to post it here as well, just need to edit out my persnal info.


Of course. I'll take a look in the evening after work.


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## WouldBe (May 12, 2014)

A4E = lying, cheating fuckwits.

Had another letter from them this morning. Posted 2nd class on the 7th advising of a mandatory appointment on the 8th  as part of the 'work program' even though I'm on ESA in the support group.

Is it OK to start a letter to them with "Dear fuckwits,"?


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## Greebo (May 12, 2014)

WouldBe said:


> A4E = lying, cheating fuckwits.
> 
> Had another letter from them this morning. Posted 2nd class on the 7th advising of a mandatory appointment on the 8th  as part of the 'work program' even though I'm on ESA in the support group.
> 
> Is it OK to start a letter to them with "Dear fuckwits,"?


You could write 2 letters; one to vent your justifiable anger, and one to send.  Do not under any circumstances send the letter which starts with "Dear fuckwits".  

OTOH you can state that you're impressed with the levels of incompetence and ineptitude which their letter reached (list your reasons).  Keep a copy, send "signed for" (orange sticker), and get expert advice asap if poss.


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## existentialist (May 12, 2014)

WouldBe said:


> A4E = lying, cheating fuckwits.
> 
> Had another letter from them this morning. Posted 2nd class on the 7th advising of a mandatory appointment on the 8th  as part of the 'work program' even though I'm on ESA in the support group.
> 
> Is it OK to start a letter to them with "Dear fuckwits,"?


Just out of interest, was the letter dated 7th, too? I sometimes wonder how these operations can be so dim. OTOH, if they're really fuckwitted, someone probably processes the outgoing post once a week, or something equally idiotic.


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## WouldBe (May 13, 2014)

existentialist said:


> Just out of interest, was the letter dated 7th, too? I sometimes wonder how these operations can be so dim. OTOH, if they're really fuckwitted, someone probably processes the outgoing post once a week, or something equally idiotic.


Yes. Letter was dated the 7th. 

Post mark is a bit blurry but looks like it's been franked on 9th


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 19, 2014)

Employment Planning Review appointment this afternoon. Anyone done one of these?
I suspect they will try to make me sign something today like an employment plan/action plan. After the drama they caused on 30th April 2014 i'm a little apprehensive about this appointment today. I have made a formal complaint about the behaviour of two staff members and replied to the manager regarding his misunderstanding of consent and contractual obligations. I'm hoping that will at least give me some breathing space.

Will report back later.


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 19, 2014)

Just got back from an hour long meeting, the job advisor was out of his depth and apart from the first few minutes most the meeting was between myself and the office manager who i caught shoulder surfing early on and asked him to join the conversation. The rest of the open plan office listened with great interest and nervousness, the colleague in the far corner constantly sniggering, more so when i mentioned the ongoing fraud trial, the DWP statistics that show A4e are "worse than doing nothing", i also said that "A4e are poncing of the unemployed."

I only said those things because they are true and my job A4e job advisor and the manager had both came very close to suggesting that i was "swinging the lead", i asked them to be very careful in their choice of language and i took the fight to them.

It was agreed that i did not have to sign the initial induction documents but no apology was offered for the duress applied on 30th April 2014. It was also agreed that i did not need to sign an "employment plan" or provide them with a copy of my CV. However, they won't let the CV thing rest and there will be more trouble with that. They agreed to delete personal telephone numbers from their database which were passed to them by the DWP under section 3 of the Social Security Act (1998). Those telephone numbers should have been removed from DWP databases some time ago so i was surprised to see them on screen.

Throughout the hour long meeting a number of threats were made, "we need you to cooperate with us", "if you don't cooperate we will put you on more activites", "if you don't cooperate we will make it difficult for you because you are being difficult with us", i challenged each and eveyone of these and the manager became increasingly irritated. I told them i was cooperating but thus onus is on A4e to explore other avenues to facilitate my participation in The Work Programme. Their whole tone was that i was the problem, i remained calm and polite.

They kept insisting that i provide them with details of my job search activity, i repeatedly refused referring them to JobCentre Plus to whom i provide the evidence on a fortnightly basis. A4e don't like that and we could not reach agreement.

I kept telling them i was legally entitled to withhold my consent to A4e collecting, gathering, sharing and disclosing my personal data, over and above what they are entitled to under section 3 of The Social Security Act (1998); in fact my consent was not asked for (a breach of DWP Work Programme Provider Guidance), the manager kept telling me i was being difficult. None of the other staff spoke.

After an hour the manager was exhausted and the mood in the open plan office had changed, those that had not gone home were surly. Eye contact was avoided but i insisted on shaking hands with the manager and job advisor.

They have decided to punish me with weekly mandatory appointments (the nature of which are unclear), CV sessions (they don't know how many at the moment) and something else lol.

They are going to make my life as difficult as they can. I don't take it personally, it's all part of the game. They have the clocks but i have the time.


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 19, 2014)

PS; if any Urbanite can offer me local to Brixton, full or part time paid employment i can start tomorrow morning.


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 22, 2014)

The first wave of punishment arrived in the post today, three envelopes, four letters. Two appointments in one day and two appointments at the same time on another day. None of these appointment letters have been signed by either of the authors.

All of them involve a "Structured Job Search Session".


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## existentialist (May 22, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> The first wave of punishment arrived in the post today, three envelopes, four letters. Two appointments in one day and two appointments at the same time on another day. None of these appointment letters have been signed by either of the authors.
> 
> All of them involve a "Structured Job Search Session".


I think you should document and/or log all this. While each individual act on their part might be arguably proportionate, I suspect that as the picture builds up, you might be able to show unreasonability, and perhaps you will be able to go to your MP or a campaigning organisation and make a case that they are being unfair or actively harming your job search activity (for example, if these "structured activities" turn out, as I suspect they will do, to be wasteful of your precious job seeking time.


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 22, 2014)

existentialist said:


> I think you should document and/or log all this. While each individual act on their part might be arguably proportionate, I suspect that as the picture builds up, you might be able to show unreasonability, and perhaps you will be able to go to your MP or a campaigning organisation and make a case that they are being unfair or actively harming your job search activity (for example, if these "structured activities" turn out, as I suspect they will do, to be wasteful of your precious job seeking time.



I keep meticulous records, the manager did say on Monday that "he was going to make it difficult" for me. Two appointments in one day is either another cock up or a deliberate trap.

I have asked them previously, in writing and verbally to explain in all Mandatory Activity Notifications (MAN) why they think the mandatory activity is reasonable, they have failed to do so in any of these MAN's.

The Structured Job Search Sessions appear to be something like this;
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/mar/06/a4e-unemployment-case-study

I can do this at home.


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## RedDragon (May 22, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> The Structured Job Search Sessions appear to be something like this;
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/mar/06/a4e-unemployment-case-study





> ...Webb also received a letter notifying him of an appointment with an A4e adviser named "Ann Other". He says he was told that this was "a made-up name" A4e staff attach to appointments "when they don't know who the appointment is with"...


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 24, 2014)

I made a complaint about what happened at my induction appointment on 30th April 2014. I received a reply today from the manager. Of course he did not uphold my complaint. His version of events, having fully investigated, is one of pure fiction. No surprise there then. More seriously, i believe in paragraph two of his reply he has libelled me._ "It has been claimed that you were being very argumentative and acting aggressively."
_
He goes on to apologise in paragraph three, _"if you have interpreted the events in a different way then i apologise for how you felt during this interaction."
_
That's not an apology, it's an insult. I don't know what to do next. I know what the options are but i can't decide what to do. If i just sign off all of this will go away. I would welcome any suggestions about how to proceed especially if they are unorthodox. I don't mind playing dirty.


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## Treacle Toes (May 24, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I made a complaint about what happened at my induction appointment on 30th April 2014. I received a reply today from the manager. Of course he did not uphold my complaint. His version of events, having fully investigated, is one of pure fiction. No surprise there then. More seriously, i believe in paragraph two of his reply he has libelled me._ "It has been claimed that you were being very argumentative and acting aggressively."
> _
> He goes on to apologise in paragraph three, _"if you have interpreted the events in a different way then i apologise for how you felt during this interaction."
> _
> That's not an apology, it's an insult. I don't know what to do next. I know what the options are but i can't decide what to do. If i just sign off all of this will go away. I would welcome any suggestions about how to proceed especially if they are unorthodox. I don't mind playing dirty.




Can you afford to simply sign off? 

I see you have two choices here:

1. Go along with their bollocks/play the game/do as little as you need to to keep them off your back or...
2. Do the above and take your complaint to the next level.


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## Treacle Toes (May 24, 2014)

From the end of the comments of this blog you can see that other people are escalating their complaints up the A4E ladder. The more peoplr who do this the better IMO.



> *highpark1 *3 weeks ago from on top a the world Hub Author
> 
> Thank you for your email received in this office 28th April 2014, advising that you are disappointed with the outcome of the investigation into your complaint. Your complaint has now been escalated to Stage 3 and Tracy Ellison, A4e Executive Director, will investigate and deal with any issues regarding your complaint and contact you accordingly.


http://highpark1.hubpages.com/hub/a4e-complaint


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 24, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Can you afford to simply sign off?
> 
> I see you have two choices here:
> 
> ...



No.I have no other means to support myself. 
It's not impacting negatively on my mood and i try not to let it occupy too much of my time and mind but this battle with them is becoming more intense.
I have refused to sign any documents/contracts with them, i have refused to share my personal data with them to stop them sharing my data with third parties. My last line of defence is privacy and consent. All the activities they are mandating me to conduct are therefore impossible for me to comply with.

Alarm bells have also gone off in their head because i am clearly intelligent and they wonder why i don't have a job.


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## Treacle Toes (May 24, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood 

Both these have been really helpful for some of the people I am in contact with online. 

http://fightback.boards.net/

http://www.4up.org.uk/


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 24, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Dexter Deadwood
> 
> Both these have been really helpful for some of the people I am in contact with online.
> 
> ...



Bookmarked, thank you.


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## Schmetterling (May 25, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> From the end of the comments of this blog you can see that other people are escalating their complaints up the A4E ladder. The more peoplr who do this the better IMO.
> 
> 
> http://highpark1.hubpages.com/hub/a4e-complaint



That's what I was going to suggest.

And for the giggles; when you go to attend the 'structured job search' sessions can you pretend not to understand any instructions? Repeatedly?  With a glazed over look in your eye? Nodding along as they explain; say "Ah!, I get it!" and muddle up what they have said?  And please, please, please do what I fully intend to do: scratch you fanny/crotch/arse/armit and sniff your finger.  Point with said finger a person.  Ad infinitum!


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## equationgirl (May 25, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I made a complaint about what happened at my induction appointment on 30th April 2014. I received a reply today from the manager. Of course he did not uphold my complaint. His version of events, having fully investigated, is one of pure fiction. No surprise there then. More seriously, i believe in paragraph two of his reply he has libelled me._ "It has been claimed that you were being very argumentative and acting aggressively."
> _
> He goes on to apologise in paragraph three, _"if you have interpreted the events in a different way then i apologise for how you felt during this interaction."
> _
> That's not an apology, it's an insult. I don't know what to do next. I know what the options are but i can't decide what to do. If i just sign off all of this will go away. I would welcome any suggestions about how to proceed especially if they are unorthodox. I don't mind playing dirty.


That is an insult indeed. A typical weasel faking an apology because they've been told to.


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 26, 2014)

I have to get my thinking hat on for tomorrow. I'm not giving them a copy of my CV. I don't want to use their computers to apply for jobs and i have asked them to explain why they think it is reasonable that i do so when i have access to resources that enable me to conduct job searches at home.
Is this "Structured Job Search Session" just job searching or does it entail something else, will A4e impart pearls of wisdom?

I need to do enough to participate in this mandatory activity, they have booked me in for these sessions every week because they said they need proof of job search activity. I have told them in writing (30/04/14) that i am not required to provide them with proof (is this correct?);

*Part 8: Jobsearch and evidence.*
_Prior to my mandatory referral to the Work Programme I was able to carry out all my Jobsearch activity requirements within my own resources, such as getting independent advice and support with my CV and Job applications, free use of computers, printing, phone, fax and letter writing and postage etc. If you wish me to attend your premises or any other on a mandatory basis, please state in writing why this would be reasonable and how it would be in addition to the Jobsearch resources I already have access to._
*Part 8.1 Evidence.*
_If you wish me to undertake specific Jobsearch activity you must issue me with a Mandatory Activity Notification, if you want me to provide evidence of my jobsearch please note: All evidence of my jobsearch is provided to the Jobcentre._

The mandatory activity notification states that, _"this activity is also detailed in your Employment Plan"_, but i have no Employment Plan with A4e. No Employment Plan was drawn up for me after i again raised the issue of consent to signing contracts.

I've not had the Health and Safety tour of the building and i do not know what to do in the event of an emergency. I have noticed fire doors propped open on my two previous visits.


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## equationgirl (May 26, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I have to get my thinking hat on for tomorrow. I'm not giving them a copy of my CV. I don't want to use their computers to apply for jobs and i have asked them to explain why they think it is reasonable that i do so when i have access to resources that enable me to conduct job searches at home.
> Is this "Structured Job Search Session" just job searching or does it entail something else, will A4e impart pearls of wisdom?
> 
> I need to do enough to participate in this mandatory activity, they have booked me in for these sessions every week because they said they need proof of job search activity. I have told them in writing (30/04/14) that i am not required to provide them with proof (is this correct?);
> ...


If the fire doors are propped open, if you are able to safely remove what is keeping them open, you could do so. It's unacceptable that you haven't had the information briefing about health and safety especially where the exits are.


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 26, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> If the fire doors are propped open, if you are able to safely remove what is keeping them open, you could do so. It's unacceptable that you haven't had the information briefing about health and safety especially where the exits are.



I'm not sure i feel confident enough to do that, the doors are in plain view in an open plan office. Taking photo's of the doors might be possible if i don't make it obvious. I guess i should insist on a Health and Safety tour of the building before i take part in the mandatory activity. If they refuse would it be reasonable for me to leave the building on the grounds of safety? 

If i leave they will raise a doubt about my entitlement to claim JSA and will lie about the reasons why.


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## equationgirl (May 26, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I'm not sure i feel confident enough to do that, the doors are in plain view in an open plan office. Taking photo's of the doors might be possible if i don't make it obvious. I guess i should insist on a Health and Safety tour of the building before i take part in the mandatory activity. If they refuse would it be reasonable for me to leave the building on the grounds of safety?
> 
> If i leave they will raise a doubt about my entitlement to claim JSA and will lie about the reasons why.


In that case definitely take photos. Also might be worth (if you can without being noticed) take photos of the exit doors, to see if there is appropriate exit signage above them. 

It seems H&S ignorance is common at many A4e offices:
http://highpark1.hubpages.com/hub/a4e-complaint


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## xsunnysuex (May 26, 2014)

Dexter I'm  sorry you are having to deal with this shit.  I thankfully managed to dodge the bullet.  Not sure what happened really.  I went for the A4E appointment.  In fact I went 3 times,  cause each time no one seemed to know why I was there.
I asked my job centre advisor what he had planned for me if I stayed with him.  He told me I would have to go on courses and training etc.
I decided finally to stay with him.  However,  at my appointment last week he told me he doesn't want to see me again until Dec or Jan. 
Not that I'm complaining mind.  Just a tad confused.


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## Bob_the_lost (May 26, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I'm not sure i feel confident enough to do that, the doors are in plain view in an open plan office. Taking photo's of the doors might be possible if i don't make it obvious. I guess i should insist on a Health and Safety tour of the building before i take part in the mandatory activity. If they refuse would it be reasonable for me to leave the building on the grounds of safety?
> 
> If i leave they will raise a doubt about my entitlement to claim JSA and will lie about the reasons why.


You could always drop the local fire brigade an email or a non-urgent call to discuss it. This shouldn't be sen as a vindictive action, it's the most serious thing that's been mentioned on this thread so far. Fires spread amazingly fast and the smoke from them kills in seconds. Fire doors save lives and people propping them open not only render them useless but can compromise an even larger part of the defensive plan than might be immediately obvious.

I'm not a fireman but i've had standard firewarden training and I paid attention, theirs isn't doing their job.


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 26, 2014)

Ok, i almost have a plan in place for tomorrow. Broadly speaking in involves staying very calm, humorous even. They have marked me out as a trouble maker. They say i'm being difficult, in a way that's a compliment.
Again, i won't be signing anything. I'm escalating the complaint i made because it's the correct thing to do and i am highly motivated despite them closing ranks, chained together by their dishonesty.
My first concern is of course my safety whilst in the building. Secondly, i must protect my personal data from these spivs. Thirdly, i must gather evidence of repeated breaches relating to the DWP Work Programme Provider Guidelines. Finally, i must do enough to have satisfy myself that i have reasonably participated in this mandatory activity.

I am at least now armed with a couple of tricks up my sleeve and will report back tomorrow.


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## Celyn (May 27, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Ok, i almost have a plan in place for tomorrow. Broadly speaking in involves staying very calm, humorous even...



Oh god, that's a great trick if you feel up to it, so I hope you feel as brave tomorrow.

Ack, just realised that might sound snarky.  Utterly NOT the way I meant it:  those people have all the power to make one's head explode and they know it, so it's a terrific achievement to keep going as you seem to do.  The whole "calm" thing is nigh-on impossible, never mind keeping humorous.  

Fingers crossed for you and all that.


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 27, 2014)

Just returned home from this Structured Job Search activity. I was finally given a brief Health & Safety tour of the building and noticed three fire doors were open, one of them with a wedge. I asked to speak to the manager outside the building once he had finished his meeting, he met me outside and assured me that he had instructed staff to close to the fire doors whilst i am in the building. I informed him the fire doors should be kept closed at all times. When i returned to the building, two of the fire doors were again open. I suspect the third door is faulty and cannot be closed.

I told him i did not feel safe in the building and he informed me that i could either get on with it or go home. For safety reasons i chose the later option. He informed me he would be raising a doubt about my entitlement to claim JSA as in his opinion i had not participated in the mandatory activity. I told him that raising a doubt was unreasonable but we would let Labour Market Decision Making & Appeals (LM DMA) decide.

Staff were giving me murderous looks, one staff member told me the open fire doors don't matter and that i should go and sit down.

I have taken photographs of the open fire doors and have digital audio recordings of all my conversations in the building this morning.


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## existentialist (May 27, 2014)

Blog it all.


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## DotCommunist (May 27, 2014)

you sound like a monumental ballache DD, respect.

I just put up with the bullshit cos its too much agg to gainsay the fuckers.

keep me updated


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 27, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> you sound like a monumental ballache DD, respect.
> 
> *I just put up with the bullshit cos its too much agg to gainsay the fuckers*.
> 
> keep me updated



This is probably a wiser strategy, i have enjoyed the fight, learnt a lot about law, learnt new skills and given where i started from have been remarkably successful. Eight doubts raised by A4e all of them defeated. A successful complaint to the Information Commissioner's Office and a loss with the Independent Case Examiner (although they agreed with all of the points i raised).

There are other ways to play their game but i am locked into this, i would like to jump ship now but there is no safe landing space.


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## equationgirl (May 27, 2014)

Fair play to you Dexter Deadwood - I suspect there is a culture of ignoring H&S at A4e offices which will be to their detriment if there is a fatal fire. Sadly with these things it takes loss or near-loss of human life for anyone to take notice. You did the right thing in reporting it.


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## DotCommunist (May 27, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Fair play to you Dexter Deadwood - I suspect there is a culture of ignoring H&S at A4e offices which will be to their detriment if there is a fatal fire. Sadly with these things it takes loss or near-loss of human life for anyone to take notice. You did the right thing in reporting it.




when a4e kettering did the fire and h&s tour with me and some fellow unfortunates they mentioned bags and suspicious packages that might be a bomb. Lad next to me says 'Who wants to bomb a work program place in kettering anyway?'

tongue bit nearly in half


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