# Brixton Splash continues to airbrush its founder from history



## editor (Aug 2, 2012)

I've written a piece about how Pat Clark - the guy who came up with the idea of Splash - is still being airbrushed from its history:

http://www.urban75.org/blog/brixton...airbrush-its-founder-from-the-events-history/


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 2, 2012)

I was doing First Aid at the European No-Car Day on CHL and Pat was so pleased with the event as something everyone in Brixton enjoyed and came up with the idea that day as having a sort of annual Brixton Festival. He then got the ball rolling.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 2, 2012)

I have to admit I was initially sceptical that it would ever be allowed to happen because it would involve closing CHL.


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## editor (Aug 2, 2012)

Me too. He worked hard to get this pushed through.


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## shygirl (Aug 2, 2012)

His face/profile obviously doesn't fit.  The board are clearly pretty spineless and don't want to rock the boat.

Good blog, ed.


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## wurlycurly (Aug 3, 2012)

editor said:


> I've written a piece about how Pat Clark - the guy who came up with the idea of Splash - is still being airbrushed from its history:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.urban75.org/blog/brixton...airbrush-its-founder-from-the-events-history/


 
Blacker is described on the front of today's SLP as the co-founder, so at least he's not trying to claim all the credit. I still feel Pat deserves a mention on the Splash website, though. There's no doubt that he came up with the idea and worked hard to bring it to fruition.


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## editor (Aug 3, 2012)

wurlycurly said:


> Blacker is described on the front of today's SLP as the co-founder, so at least he's not trying to claim all the credit.


Ros Griffiths has been busy claiming the other half of the credit.


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## wurlycurly (Aug 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Ros Griffiths has been busy claiming the other half of the credit.


 
I assumed the 'co-founder' line was a subtle nod to Pat. Is a mention on the Splash website really too much to ask?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2012)

I don't think so. As I mentioned on another thread, it means he can't even mention it on his CV or it makes him look like a liar, which he most certainly is not.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2012)

So, it's more than just lack of acknowledgement, it impinges on his livelihood which is wrong.


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## wurlycurly (Aug 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I don't think so. As I mentioned on another thread, it means he can't even mention it on his CV or it makes him look like a liar, which he most certainly is not.


 
I never thought of it that way but see where you're coming from. It's a truly fantastic  event, up there with the Country Show in my affections.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2012)

Because Pat's job does move him around it's an important thing to be able to mention in CVs. He's never been a egotist, this isn't about bigging himself up, it's about being able to demonstrate on his CV what his experience is.


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## editor (Aug 3, 2012)

wurlycurly said:


> I assumed the 'co-founder' line was a subtle nod to Pat. Is a mention on the Splash website really too much to ask?


No. He's never had any kind of credit or even a subtle nod. As fas as Brixton Splash are concerned it was all Ros Griffiths' and Blacker Dread's idea from the start, which is simply not true. And they know that.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2012)

...because Pat approached Blacker Dread to get him on board, as I understand it.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2012)

In no way I am trying to downplay Ros and Blacker's involvement, commitment and sheer bloody hard work. They do loads for Brixton. I don't know Blacker personally, although I know him to have done loads for the area, but I know Ros and have huge respect for what she's done for Brixton, especially in terms of getting young people into employment.

Pat's job means, much as he'd love to have permanent roots in Brixton, his job moves him around every few years (he was 'parachuted' into a Brixton Pub from Aldershot by the brewery). Because he's not someone who has been involved in Splash year after year after year doesn't mean that his contribution should be denied. Especially from the point of view of his CV. It could be the difference between getting a job, or passed over.


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## editor (Aug 3, 2012)

Btw, Pat's inspiration for the day came after the Brixton Car Free Day in 2000/2001 which saw Coldharbour Lane being closed for the day. 







http://www.urban75.org/brixton/photos/18.html

Video (blimey, it's like a different world)


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## spanglechick (Aug 3, 2012)

Have Blacker or Ros been approached for their opinions? A statement in support would help, I'd think.  Not that it should be needed.


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## editor (Aug 3, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Have Blacker or Ros been approached for their opinions? A statement in support would help, I'd think. Not that it should be needed.


Pat has tried and tried and tried and tried on that score.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 3, 2012)

It's a real shame but save people turning up in Pat masks on the day I'm not sure you're going to see much movement on this.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2012)

Unfortunately because he's quite self-effacing he doesn't push himself forward for photographs so the mask idea has fallen at the first hurdle. Perhaps just as well, he'd probably be hugely embarrassed.


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## editor (Aug 3, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It's a real shame but save people turning up in Pat masks on the day I'm not sure you're going to see much movement on this.


My blog article has already been read by hundreds of people, and at least Pat can now finally include Brixton Splash on his CV.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 3, 2012)

editor said:


> My blog article has already been read by hundreds of people, and at least Pat can now finally include Brixton Splash on his CV.



Unless those 'hundreds' of people can change the BS website or actively contact BS to get them to change it makes no real difference in terms of the main aim of getting his name on the website. Have you considered asking your readers to email BS demanding answers?


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Unfortunately because he's quite self-effacing he doesn't push himself forward for photographs so the mask idea has fallen at the first hurdle. Perhaps just as well, he'd probably be hugely embarrassed.



Then the next idea is a campaign to gets people to email BS demanding answers. Writing a blog an patting yourself on the back isn't good enough if you're serious about getting Pat's name as a founder on the BS website.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2012)

...and there is dated evidence of his original idea, so it's not something that is their word against anyone else's.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 3, 2012)

> Following internal discussions it has been agreed that we will not name anyone on our history page bar from Blacka who continues to be heavily involved in the event. This is simply because we owe a debt to too many people in the area to name check them all our page has been updated.​


 
Is their comma not working?


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## editor (Aug 3, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Writing a blog an patting yourself on the back isn't good enough if you're serious about getting Pat's name as a founder on the BS website.


Who's "patting themselves on the back"? 

For the record, I've written to BS several times and I've also got it into the local press next week. More importantly, Pat can now include it in his CV without people questioning his integrity.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Btw, Pat's inspiration for the day came after the Brixton Car Free Day in 2000/2001 which saw Coldharbour Lane being closed for the day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I was plonked in front of McDonalds.  I seem to remember a naked guy up a lamp-post


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## ddraig (Aug 3, 2012)

was that not reclaim the streets you are on abaht?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2012)

ddraig said:


> was that not reclaim the streets you are on abaht?


No.
Well there was a woman, painted green, who stripped off. Her kid was completely freaked out and was close to Death By Total Embarrassment.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2012)

Plus there were a load of school groups there and Brixton Cycles had to detour a kids race round Rushcroft Road till the police made her get dressed or the teachers were going to take them all back to school.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ...and there is dated evidence of his original idea, so it's not something that is their word against anyone else's.



Campaign success is measured by his name being on the BS website as a founder, it needs to be on their as that's the place any employer would take seriously if they wanted to verify. A few words on a blog is not good enough. BS should be more concerned with recognizing its diverse history rather than this whitewash...


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2012)

Actually, yes, you're right, particularly if a future employer looked at their website or contacted Brixton Splash.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Actually, yes, you're right, particularly if a future employer looked at their website or contacted Brixton Splash.



Yep. I've been through this one personally, no amount of other blogs writing about it is enough compared to your name being clearly on the website. 

The objective and main point of concern was his name not being on the BS website, anything less than this IMO is not good enough.


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## editor (Aug 3, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Campaign success is measured by his name being on the BS website as a founder, it needs to be on their as that's the place any employer would take seriously if they wanted to verify. A few words on a blog is not good enough.


But a damn sight better than nothing at all. If you want to help, please write to BS and complain because I've done about as much as I can.

Oh, and the story is going to be in the Lambeth Weekender next week and that should help build the pressure on BS.


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## shygirl (Aug 4, 2012)

You are talking about people with little integrity, who don't give a flying fuck about doing the right thing by Pat.  Its political...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2012)

ddraig said:


> was that not reclaim the streets you are on abaht?


 
oh right, could have been.  I remember a few inflatable armchairs nearby and erm... oh, b/f bought me some peacock feathers that i fancied but then gave away after someone told me they were unlucky 

Can't remember much else


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## editor (Aug 4, 2012)

I suspect that they won't bother posting up the truth on their website until _after_ the event.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2012)

I can't even see where to log in and view comments

Why don't you join their Facebook page and remind them about Pat 

What does the wonderful Brixton Blog have to say about this situation?


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## editor (Aug 4, 2012)

I wrote to Brixton Splash yesterday asking them to send me their press pack for Splash so I could promote the event on the urban blog. They haven't replied to that either.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2012)

Hound them on Facebook.  Maybe you'll embarrass them.

Not really good form, but


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 4, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Hound them on Facebook.  Maybe you'll embarrass them.
> 
> Not really good form, but



And on Twitter, use their preferred hash tag and #Brixton so people can see whats going on. If a few hundred people did that the public pressure might be enough to shame them into action.


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## shygirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Just had a thought - as Lambeth Council and the Police both fund Splash, people could write to Coldharbour cllrs and the borough commander to ask them to bring some pressure to bear on the matter.

I hate the statement BS issued about not paying tribute to anyone other than Blacka, as there are too many to mention. How fucking disingenuous, as we're talking here about the person who FOUNDED it, not helped it.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 4, 2012)

Now you're talking! If people genuinely care about Pat being named on the website they've gotta get active and quick!


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## editor (Aug 4, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Now you're talking! If people genuinely care about Pat being named on the website they've gotta get active and quick!


Have you written to Splash?


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## free spirit (Aug 4, 2012)

shygirl said:


> Just had a thought - as Lambeth Council and the Police both fund Splash, people could write to Coldharbour cllrs and the borough commander to ask them to bring some pressure to bear on the matter.
> 
> I hate the statement BS issued about not paying tribute to anyone other than Blacka, as there are too many to mention. How fucking disingenuous, as we're talking here about the person who FOUNDED it, not helped it.


tbh, they'd be much better off dedicating an entire page to all the people who've made significant contributions than none at all.

For a lot of people one of the main points for them volunteering for an community event like this is to gain experience and be able to put it on their CV.

TBH though, I think Pat should be able to put this on his CV no problem - none of the events I've ever worked for mention me on their websites either, but they're still on my CV (well, they were), and I've never had anyone query it - it's fairly obvious at interview stage whether or not someone actually did have that involvement or has made it up.


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## editor (Aug 4, 2012)

It is a problem because prospective employees would want to be able to check Pat's involvement with Splash and to date they have refused to acknowledge his contribution. And that then makes him look like a liar.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 4, 2012)

free spirit said:


> tbh, they'd be much better off dedicating an entire page to all the people who've made significant contributions than none at all.
> 
> For a lot of people one of the main points for them volunteering for an community event like this is to gain experience and be able to put it on their CV.
> 
> TBH though, I think Pat should be able to put this on his CV no problem - none of the events I've ever worked for mention me on their websites either, but they're still on my CV (well, they were), and I've never had anyone query it - it's fairly obvious at interview stage whether or not someone actually did have that involvement or has made it up.



The founders need to be on there.


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## editor (Aug 4, 2012)

I also wrote to Splash to tell them about the blog article so they've had every chance to respond.

Maybe they'll finally respond when the newspaper article comes out (sadly, that will be after the event which will no doubt suit them).


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 4, 2012)

editor said:


> Have you written to Splash?



I don't have to, if I lived in Brixton, knew Pat and attended the BS event I'd create a proper campaign to get this sorted. I wouldn't be suggesting that increasing traffic on my blog was some kind of victory.

Not being a major member of the community like you means my highly visible engagement wouldn't be well received so I don't think it's right I lead a local campaign like this.


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## editor (Aug 4, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I don't have to, if I lived in Brixton, knew Pat and attended the BS event I'd create a proper campaign to get this sorted. I wouldn't be suggesting that increasing traffic on my blog was some kind of victory.


That's a shame because with all the effort you've put in to post your comments here, a single email to Splash would probably have had far more impact.

And please stop the snidey misrepresentations about me claiming any kind of "victory" over my blog post. I'm simply doing the best I can about something that I care about.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2012)

free spirit said:


> tbh, they'd be much better off dedicating an entire page to all the people who've made significant contributions than none at all.
> 
> For a lot of people one of the main points for them volunteering for an community event like this is to gain experience and be able to put it on their CV.
> 
> TBH though, I think Pat should be able to put this on his CV no problem - none of the events I've ever worked for mention me on their websites either, but they're still on my CV (well, they were), and I've never had anyone query it - it's fairly obvious at interview stage whether or not someone actually did have that involvement or has made it up.


 
To be frank, one of the things that bothers me about not crediting Pat is that a decision to credit no-one but Blacker, even though so many people know that it was Pat's idea, leaves Splash open to politically-motivated accusations of prejudice on the part of some or all of the Splash board, although I'm extremely doubt that there was any such overt intention on their part.


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## shygirl (Aug 4, 2012)

I too was thinking along those lines, Violent Panda.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> To be frank, one of the things that bothers me about not crediting Pat is that a decision to credit no-one but Blacker, even though so many people know that it was Pat's idea, leaves Splash open to politically-motivated accusations of prejudice on the part of some or all of the Splash board, although I'm extremely doubt that there was any such overt intention on their part.



That looked like a snub from the outside, basically the inference (use of the term 'core constituency' included) is that a white person can't be considered a critical part of the history of BS.


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## Ozone (Aug 5, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That looked like a snub from the outside, basically the inference (use of the term 'core constituency' included) is that a white person can't be considered a critical part of the history of BS.


 
And yet the tag line on their website and on the flags decorating Brixton's centre clearly states: "Out of many - One People"....

And it says on their website:

"Brixton Splash is a free community street festival led by the local community. The event is aimed at *celebrating the area’s diversity*, its *progress through the years* and the *fusion* of the *numerous ethnic groups* that now call Brixton home."

Seems there is a huge disparity in what they practise and what they preach.


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## snowy_again (Aug 5, 2012)

^ I've kept out of this for personal reasons, but that comment reminded me of the first post by one of the other splash trustees who said something along the lines of 'as you can tell from my photo, I'm not Jamaican' which sounded naive to me.

Either way,I'll be at splash tomorrow and hope it's a successful day and that Pat gets the appropriate credit. The questions I asked lj re splash legal constitution & accounts still apply though should they ever come back though.


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## Gramsci (Aug 5, 2012)

Ozone said:


> And yet the tag line on their website and on the flags decorating Brixton's centre clearly states: "Out of many - One People"....
> 
> And it says on their website:
> 
> ...


 
On the thread that Jasper started I asked about this. I was there today. I do not have a problem with Splash. What I have a problem with is it is not what it says it is.

As a friend of mine in Brixton said today( who is from a minority that is not Afro Carribean) Splash is about one ethnic minority which is Afro Carribean of Jamaican descent.  Nothing wrong with that but it is not what Splash says it is about.

As far as Im concerned Pat is written out of the history of Splash because he is white. If BS had no problem with the "fusion of ethnic groups" that is Brixton this writing out of Pat would not have happened.


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## gabi (Aug 6, 2012)

Ozone said:


> And yet the tag line on their website and on the flags decorating Brixton's centre clearly states: "Out of many - One People"....
> 
> And it says on their website:
> 
> ...


 
Petty bollocks.

You're aware that Splash coincided with the 50th anniversary of Jamaican independence? And the role that Jamaican culture has played in the area's history?


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## Rushy (Aug 6, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> On the thread that Jasper started I asked about this. I was there today. I do not have a problem with Splash. What I have a problem with is it is not what it says it is.
> 
> As a friend of mine in Brixton said today( who is from a minority that is not Afro Carribean) Splash is about one ethnic minority which is Afro Carribean of Jamaican descent. Nothing wrong with that but it is not what Splash says it is about.


 
I agree with this. I like what Splash *says* it stands for but it is definitely failing to deliver on that. Other than the mix of attendees there is not a lot that is multicultural in Splash's offering. I appreciate this year is dedicated to the 50th anniversary but it was the same last year. It would be good to the see the board and sound systems opened up to representatives from all parts of the community.


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## Gramsci (Aug 6, 2012)

gabi said:


> Petty bollocks.
> 
> You're aware that Splash coincided with the 50th anniversary of Jamaican independence? And the role that Jamaican culture has played in the area's history?


 
I am aware of that. I am also aware of the contribution of South Americans, Portugese, Greek Cypriots , Asians, those from Grenada , St Lucia, Irish , Eritreans and Algerians to Brixton over the years.

None of which got represented at Splash in recent years.


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## editor (Aug 6, 2012)

And the Irish. There's traditionally been a fairly sizeable Irish community in Brixton.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

editor said:


> And the Irish. There's traditionally been a fairly sizeable Irish community in Brixton.


 
Gramsci said Irish


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## editor (Aug 6, 2012)

It was the misplaced comma that put me off.


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## gabi (Aug 6, 2012)

I think this year they could be excused for celebrating Jamaica almost exclusively, given the historical significance + the expected Bolt go(l)d..


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## editor (Aug 6, 2012)

gabi said:


> I think this year they could be excused for celebrating Jamaica almost exclusively, given the historical significance + the expected Bolt go(l)d..


It was much the same last year, when my mate's band got introduced along the lines of, "here's a couple of white guys and then we'll have proper Brixton people back on."


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

gabi said:


> I think this year they could be excused for celebrating Jamaica almost exclusively, given the historical significance + the expected Bolt go(l)d..


 
but it's not just this year that's it's almost Jamaica exclusively!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

editor said:


> It was much the same last year, when my mate's band got introduced along the lines of, "*here's a couple of white guys and then we'll have proper Brixton people back on."*


 
You only need to swap white with black to see how that would have gone down


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## gabi (Aug 6, 2012)

Yeh, well hopefully next year they'll sort out a better balance now that Jaspar's been ousted


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## Ozone (Aug 6, 2012)

gabi said:


> Petty bollocks.
> 
> You're aware that Splash coincided with the 50th anniversary of Jamaican independence? And the role that Jamaican culture has played in the area's history?


 
Really? I would never have guessed.... I thought Windrush Square was named after the feeling one gets when one has a second wind and rushes back to the party..... 

Seriously though, no one is critising the fact that Splash is celebrating the Jamaican influence in the area (or in fact denying Jamaicans the right to a huge Independence/Usain Bolt party), but there are questions being asked about why one of the founders, who perhaps doesn't fit the "Splash mould" has been denied the right to an acknowledgement on their founder's page.....now that is what I would call "petty bollocks".


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## RaverDrew (Aug 6, 2012)

I've just had a look back through all my e-mail correspondence from when the first Splash was being organised. In particular there's an email with a very long list of thanks afterwards listing "Splash Heroes" who helped make it happen, and neither Ros, Lee, or Blacker Dread are mentioned anywhere that I can see.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I am aware of that. I am also aware of the contribution of South Americans, Portugese, Greek Cypriots , Asians, those from Grenada , St Lucia, Irish , Eritreans and Algerians to Brixton over the years.
> 
> None of which got represented at Splash in recent years.


 
FFS, the Trinis and other smallies are gonna take out a hit on you for only mentioning Grenada and St. Lucia!


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2012)

gabi said:


> Yeh, well hopefully next year they'll sort out a better balance now that Jaspar's been ousted


 
It's not just a Jasper thing though. Look at that fuckwit who was posting on here last week, eyedoc I think, who attempted to imply that Brixton was predominantly a Jamaican community. It's arrant ahistorical bollocks, but it's prevalent bollocks that's unfortunately not helped by the way the meeja represent Brixton.
We're being expected to swallow the fact that there are politically-motivated individuals attempting to "play" Splash as a black thing generally, and a Jamaican thing specifically, when what they're doing is arguably as prejudiced against the other communities that inhabit (and have inhabited) Brixton, as "the establishment" has historically been against black Brixton.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I've just had a look back through all my e-mail correspondence from when the first Splash was being organised. In particular there's an email with a very long list of thanks afterwards listing "Splash Heroes" who helped make it happen, and neither Ros, Lee, or Blacker Dread are mentioned anywhere that I can see.


 
Revisionism. Of course Blacker and Ros were involved! You must be some kind of racist bigot, Drew!


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## Gramsci (Aug 6, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> FFS, the Trinis and other smallies are gonna take out a hit on you for only mentioning Grenada and St. Lucia!


 
 Thing is I have met people from St Lucia and Grenada living in Brixton(or descended from those who came here from those islands). Didnt put the others up as I cant say I know any in Brixton.

I know it sometimes annoys those who come from the other islands that people here equate the Caribbean with Jamaica. As they consider themselves as different from Jamaicans even if they share a history of colonialism.


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## Gramsci (Aug 6, 2012)

gabi said:


> I think this year they could be excused for celebrating Jamaica almost exclusively, given the historical significance + the expected Bolt go(l)d..


 
Fair enough point gabi but I've noticed its the same every year. As a few other posters have also pointed out. I liked the big posters on the side of the Ritzy as they were relevant to the 50th year of independence.

I think the relationship with Jamaica for some Black British could be seen to be similar to the Irish relationship with the Republic. Many Irish Americans have never been to Ireland but feel a connection to it due to there history. Its what it symbolises that is important.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Fair enough point gabi but I've noticed its the same every year. As a few other posters have also pointed out. I liked the big posters on the side of the Ritzy as they were relevant to the 50th year of independence.
> 
> I think the relationship with Jamaica for some Black British could be seen to be similar to the Irish relationship with the Republic. Many Irish Americans have never been to Ireland but feel a connection to it due to there history.


 
Otherwise known as Plastic Paddies


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 6, 2012)

gabi said:


> Yeh, well hopefully next year they'll sort out a better balance now that Jaspar's been ousted


 
I wouldn't hold my breath. No campaign for change means no change. This time next year we'll have the same old posts on the same old threads about this and nothing will be different. There just isn't a strong feeling to right this so BS won't feel any pressure to change the website to reflect who founded it.


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## Gramsci (Aug 6, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Otherwise known as Plastic Paddies


 
That made me laugh. Thats so bad.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 6, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Fair enough point gabi but I've noticed its the same every year. As a few other posters have also pointed out. I liked the big posters on the side of the Ritzy as they were relevant to the 50th year of independence.
> 
> I think the relationship with Jamaica for some Black British could be seen to be similar to the Irish relationship with the Republic. Many Irish Americans have never been to Ireland but feel a connection to it due to there history. Its what it symbolises that is important.


 
The relationship with JA for some Black British is the same for those who hail from the island. Other islands don't have the same connection to that island specifically so not sure it compares to the Irish thing.

Barbados represent!


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## Gramsci (Aug 6, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath. No campaign for change means no change. This time next year we'll have the same old posts on the same old threads about this and nothing will be different. There just isn't a strong feeling to right this so BS won't feel any pressure to change the website to reflect who founded it.


 
There website is still down.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> That made me laugh. Thats so bad.


 
Well it's what they're often called.    I wonder if Jamaicans get called Plastic Jamaicans 

Doesn't really sound right


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 6, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well it's what they're often called.  I wonder if Jamaicans get called Plastic Jamaicans
> 
> Doesn't really sound right


 
LOL! Couldn't see that term going down well. In Barbados I was told that those who'd left the island and returned many years later weren't considered Bajan and referred to as 'Visitors'. Ever polite the Bajans.


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## killer b (Aug 6, 2012)

Plastic paddies are fake Irish. One presumes a fake Jamaican would be a jafaican?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> weren't considered Bajan and referred to as 'Visitors'. Ever polite the Bajans.


 
How lovely  







I think


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 6, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> How lovely
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Heh innit. I didn't ask what they called children born of Bajan's overseas...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Heh innit. I didn't ask what they called children born of Bajan's overseas...


 
Can you ask them please and get back to me


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Thing is I have met people from St Lucia and Grenada living in Brixton(or descended from those who came here from those islands). Didnt put the others up as I cant say I know any in Brixton.
> 
> I know it sometimes annoys those who come from the other islands that people here equate the Caribbean with Jamaica. As they consider themselves as different from Jamaicans even if they share a history of colonialism.


 
My mate Trev's parents were both from Barbados, but met over here, in a Brixton pub. They were deffo a bit cheesed off by the whole assumption that any black south Londoner was from Jamaica, especially when it was Jamaicans doing the assuming!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> That made me laugh. Thats so bad.


 
TBF, that's what the Irish call them! I've even heard England-born children of Irish parents refered to by Irish folk as "plastics".


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Heh innit. I didn't ask what they called children born of Bajan's overseas...


 
English (said in that odd West Country/Scots burr many of them have).


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2012)

killer b said:


> Plastic paddies are fake Irish. One presumes a fake Jamaican would be a jafaican?


 
I haven't heard that one for a good few years. Probably not since the late '80s!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, that's what the Irish call them! I've even heard England-born children of Irish parents refered to by Irish folk as "plastics".


 
Yep, and they'll often try to be more Irish than the Irish themselves


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 6, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> My mate Trev's parents were both from Barbados, but met over here, in a Brixton pub. They were deffo a bit cheesed off by the whole assumption that any black south Londoner was from Jamaica, especially when it was Jamaicans doing the assuming!



That doesn't surprise me, you should hear my dad and uncles going at it - after too much rum (another Bajan invention)-  about Jamaicans!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That doesn't surprise me, you should hear my dad and uncles going at it - after too much rum (another Bajan invention)- about Jamaicans!


 
That reminds me of the less than flattering comparisons I've heard from Bajans about what Wray and Nephew tastes like.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 6, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> after too much rum (another Bajan invention)


 
i wouldnt dare say that rum is from Brazil and not from Barbados, but it does have an interesting history...


> Origins
> 
> The precursors to rum date back to antiquity. Development of fermented drinks produced from sugarcane juice is believed to have first occurred either in ancient India or China,[2] and spread from there. An example of such an early drink is brum. Produced by the Malay people, brum dates back thousands of years.[8] Marco Polo also recorded a 14th-century account of a "very good wine of sugar" that was offered to him in what is modern-day Iran.[2]
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 6, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> That reminds me of the less than flattering comparisons I've heard from Bajans about what Wray and Nephew tastes like.


 
Indeed, and the shite known as Captain Morgan. Real rum is cockspurs or Mount Gay.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Indeed, and the shite known as Captain Morgan. Real rum is cockspurs or Mount Gay.


 
Cockspur Old Gold in my case. That or Havana Club 7yrs-old is the only rum allowed in Chateau Panda.
A mate's dad used to massage Mount Gay rum onto his scalp, as a Bajan colleague on the railways had told him it was good for making your hair grow.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 6, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Cockspur Old Gold in my case. That or Havana Club 7yrs-old is the only rum allowed in Chateau Panda.
> A mate's dad used to massage Mount Gay rum onto his scalp, as a Bajan colleague on the railways had told him it was good for making your hair grow.


 
LOL! First I've heard of that one! I have a bottle of very nice St Nicholas Abbey rum at home which I bought over in Bimsy, one of the best rums I've every drank.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 7, 2012)

Mabybe Splash should change its mission statement to be about celebrating Afro-Caribeann culture/contributions, and lose the bit about diversity?  Not to exclude others, but to market it more honestly for what it seems to be at present.  I know that wasn't the original idea, but it has clearly evolved in this way.   The South Americans have a festival in Burgess Park, why not Splash to celebrate the above in Brixton?  To be fair to Ros, I know that she tried to bring in other communities there was a cross-section of music/bands as I recall 2 years ago.

I do agree with other posters that  'the community' usually refer to Black Caribeanns as opposed to other African, South American, White British, Europeans, Asian communities.  And that can feel very excluding and frustrating when the issues of one are given prominence over others.  But doesn't much of it come from a sense that the Black Carib community has faced a hugely disproportionate amount of oppression/police harrassment over the years?  And here's another thing, as resources become ever dwindling, we ARE going to see communities resenting/fighting each other for the crumbs thrown down from above.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 7, 2012)

Mabybe Splash should change its mission statement to be about celebrating Afro-Caribeann culture/contributions, and lose the bit about diversity?  Not to exclude others, but to market it more honestly for what it seems to be at present.  I know that wasn't the original idea, but it has clearly evolved in this way.   The South Americans have a festival in Burgess Park, why not Splash to celebrate the above in Brixton?  To be fair to Ros, I know that she tried to bring in other communities there was a cross-section of music/bands as I recall 2 years ago.

I do agree with other posters that term 'the community' used in our local context usually refers to Black Caribeanns as opposed to other African, South American, White British, Europeans, Asian communities.  And that can feel very excluding and frustrating when the issues of one are given prominence over others.  But doesn't much of it come from the fact that the Black Carib community has faced a hugely disproportionate amount of oppression/police harrassment over the years and has had to raise its voice loud to fight the many injustices they have faced.  And here's another thing, as resources become ever dwindling, we ARE going to see communities resenting/fighting each other for the crumbs thrown down from above.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 7, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Cockspur Old Gold in my case. That or Havana Club 7yrs-old is the only rum allowed in Chateau Panda.
> A mate's dad used to massage Mount Gay rum onto his scalp, as a Bajan colleague on the railways had told him it was good for making your hair grow.


i dont know about cockspur old gold, but captn morgan is a smoother drop than cockspur IME - cockspur is pretty burning. never tried the  Havana Club 7 - i tend to go for the spiced onces when drinking it neat (and on a budget) 
(apologies for the derail)


----------



## shygirl (Aug 7, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not just a Jasper thing though. Look at that fuckwit who was posting on here last week, eyedoc I think, who attempted to imply that Brixton was predominantly a Jamaican community. It's arrant ahistorical bollocks, but it's prevalent bollocks that's unfortunately not helped by the way the meeja represent Brixton.
> We're being expected to swallow the fact that there are politically-motivated individuals attempting to "play" Splash as a black thing generally, and a Jamaican thing specifically, when what they're doing is arguably as prejudiced against the other communities that inhabit (and have inhabited) Brixton, as "the establishment" has historically been against black Brixton.


 
I wouldn't agree that Splash is prejudiced against other communities, it just needs to be more honest and say that it is a celebration of Afro-Carib music/culture.  It might be that it was hi-jacked to some extent from Pat and others, but it is what it is now.  BTW, its absolutely piss poor and totally lacking in integrity that Pat still hasn't been acknowledged.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2012)

ska invita said:


> i dont know about cockspur old gold, but captn morgan is a smoother drop than cockspur IME - cockspur is pretty burning. never tried the Havana Club 7 - i tend to go for the spiced onces when drinking it neat (and on a budget)
> (apologies for the derail)


 
Cpt Morgan is piss.


----------



## editor (Aug 7, 2012)

shygirl said:


> Mabybe Splash should change its mission statement to be about celebrating Afro-Caribeann culture/contributions, and lose the bit about diversity?


That might spoil their chances of bagging the diversity award they're keen to get:


> Brixton Splash is a free community street festival led by the local community. The event is aimed at celebrating the area’s diversity, its progress through the years and the fusion of the numerous ethnic groups that now call Brixton home. It aims to promote peaceful relations, vibrant living and Brixton’s contribution to the wider London culture. Brixton Splash is a cultural explosion held annually on the first Sunday of August every year. The successful Street festival has grown each year and there is a range of attractions at the event including live music, poetry, art exhibitions, street theatre, crafts, children’s activities, food sales, sound systems and domino competitions.
> 
> Brixton is an area with a wealth of artistic talent, when you visit the event there is every chance that the people you see on stage will go on to become the next big thing. For example, in 2010, Katy B headlined the event performing with the Illersapiens. She went onto be one of the UK’s biggest artists of the year and is now known internationally. The purpose of the event is to showcase the vibrant face of Brixton and positively rebrand the area after the extensive negative publicity, marking the 25th anniversary of the April 1981 disorders. It truly is an advert for multiculturalism, with something for everyone to enjoy and participate in.
> 
> ...


https://www.facebook.com/NationalDiversityAwards/posts/310025682354839

PS Could folks please take the discussion about the merits of various rums to a more suitable thread please? Thanks.


----------



## Onket (Aug 7, 2012)

shygirl said:


> I wouldn't agree that Splash is prejudiced against other communities, it just needs to be more honest and say that it is a celebration of Afro-Carib music/culture. It might be that it was hi-jacked to some extent from Pat and others, *but it is what it is now*. BTW, its absolutely piss poor and totally lacking in integrity that Pat still hasn't been acknowledged.


 
These sort of things aren't really things that you can say 'it is what it is' about, imo.

Next year could be different, and the year after that different again.

If the organisers of Brixton Splash want to bill it as a diverse festival, they need to work to make it a diverse festival. Diversity, as other people have said, was sorely lacking everywhere this year, apart from amongst the attendees.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2012)

Onket said:


> These sort of things aren't really things that you can say 'it is what it is' about, imo.
> 
> Next year could be different, and the year after that different again.
> 
> If the organisers of Brixton Splash want to bill it as a diverse festival, they need to work to make it a diverse festival. Diversity, as other people have said, was sorely lacking everywhere this year, apart from amongst the attendees.


 
Given the 50th anniversary of JA's independence I think it's fair enough they focus on that this year in a sense but yeah if it's a diverse event then it should be diverse.


----------



## Onket (Aug 7, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Given the 50th anniversary of JA's independence I think it's fair enough they focus on that this year


 
It wasn't billed as that though, was it.


----------



## editor (Aug 7, 2012)

Onket said:


> It wasn't billed as that though, was it.


Indeed:


> Brixton Splash is a free community street festival *led by the local community*. The event is aimed at *celebrating the area’s diversity*, its progress through the years and *the fusion of the numerous ethnic groups* that now call Brixton home. It is a celebration of peaceful relations, vibrant living in Brixton and Brixton’s contribution to the wider London culture.





> Brixton Splash is a community led event aimed at *celebrating the diversity of the Brixton community*. The event aims to involve people from all walks of life, providing something for everyone to participate in and enjoy themselves.





> It truly is *an advert for multiculturalism*, with something for everyone to enjoy and participate in.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 7, 2012)

shygirl said:


> .
> 
> I do agree with other posters that 'the community' usually refer to Black Caribeanns as opposed to other African, South American, White British, Europeans, Asian communities. And that can feel very excluding and frustrating when the issues of one are given prominence over others. But doesn't much of it come from a sense that the Black Carib community has faced a hugely disproportionate amount of oppression/police harrassment over the years? And here's another thing, as resources become ever dwindling, we ARE going to see communities resenting/fighting each other for the crumbs thrown down from above.


 
The Irish in the past have faced police harassment / oppression when the IRA was active. More recently those from Muslim communities have had the same attention from police as Irish used to get.

The South American community suffer from the attentions of the Border police. And do not forget the shooting of the Brazilian at Stockwell. Nothing happened about that. Latin Americans are not even acknowledged as an ethnic minority in this country for official purposes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/22/london-latin-americans

When Menezes was shot at Stockwell Livingstone supported the police. Him and Jasper were not interested in South Americans. Not an important ethnic minority for them.

So I do not agree that one particular ethnic community gets more harrassment than another one. The State changes which minority it focuses on and how depending on circumstances.

I noticed recently that the Romanian Roma have seem to have gone. This happened in the run up to Olympics. Cant help wondering whether they were getting a lot of police attention and just left for a bit.

I do not see ethnic division over fighting for crumbs. What I think will happen is that the Government will further develop the idea of an underclass. A supposedly feckless class of people who do not deserve benefits. This is not based on race but class. Cuts are being justified on people being classed as "undeserving".

Also established ethnic communities will not be criticised. East Europeans are and will be considered fair game. As well as Asylum Seekers. Roma from Eastern Europe have already been demonised in papers for some time.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 7, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> A mate's dad used to massage Mount Gay rum onto his scalp, as a Bajan colleague on the railways had told him it was good for making your hair grow.


No! That's Bay Rum, not Bajan Rum...a very expensive mis-hearing 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_rum


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## leanderman (Aug 8, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> The South American community suffer from the attentions of the Border police. .


 
I have always wondered about the local South Americans: How they get here. And whether they can stay here etc


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 8, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> No! That's Bay Rum, not Bajan Rum...a very expensive mis-hearing
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_rum


 
Shhh we're not allowed to talk about rum on this thread now.


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## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2012)

leanderman said:


> I have always wondered about the local South Americans: How they get here. And whether they can stay here etc


 
Some have residency here but not full citizenship. Over the last few years ,under the last Government and the present one, visas have become increasingly difficult to get. This was done by changing regulations not laws so has not really been discussed in parliament or got much media coverage. Its an easy way to placate people concerned about effects of immigration.

Some stay here after there visas run out or work here under the radar. Most come here on learning English visas. The visas limit hours of work to ridiculously small amounts like 10 hours a week. So many have one legal job get other jobs on side. Probably why they do not have a big profile as they do not want to attract attention. 

I have always liked the South Americans Ive known. 

My attitude is I don't give a bollox about whether they have visa.


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## shygirl (Aug 8, 2012)

editor said:


> Indeed:


 
I got that wrong,   and agree, as billed, it did nothing to provide a diverse range of acts.  And they're asking for a diversity award?!


----------



## shygirl (Aug 8, 2012)

Gramsci, I agree with most of what you say, and accept that class plays a huge part in all of this.  But you could be a middle-class Black professional and still face the spectre of stop and search based on race.  We know of bishops/church ministers, police officers, barristers, etc who have been stopped for no other reason than they are Black and driving a very nice car, which to some officers means they must be dealers/criminals.

BTW, when Menezes was murdered, the community police consulative group in Lambeth became deeply involved in the follow-up, demanding meetings with senior police, cps, IPCC.  Several board and group members attended the hearing at the Oval, and not a meeting went by without there being a discussion held about the matter.  As for what the politicians did, well, what can I say..

And there ARE racial tensions in Brixton at street level, its not the great big onion we'd all like to think it is.  Certainly, there is tension between Afro-Carib and Afghan/Pakistani businesses/staff.   The whole thing about naming and shaming non-contributors to Splash came about out of this particular dynamic - established businesses, who stock Black hair/beauty products refused to donate and were seen as being happy to take Black people's money but not to put anything in to support Splash.  I agree that Lee's decision to name and shame was entirely wrong and bullying, I'm not defending that here.

Another complaint from within the Black community is the way the Afghan/Pakistani men speak to Black women, with lots of sexual innuendos, etc.  I have witnessed a lot of this whilst going through the market. The point being made from within the Black community is that they would not like their sisters or mothers to be spoken to in this way, so why are they doing it to others?   I'm not saying that I agree with everything that is being said, but I am aware that there is disquiet about these things.

As a White woman, I've had my fair share of being stereo-typed/disprespected by some Black people. The most recent example was a couple of weeks ago at the scene of a road accident on Brixton Road.  A young woman had been knocked down, the ambulance didn't arrive for about 20 mins and she was being treated on the ground.  The police were shielding her from a large crowd of onlookers (including myself).  As the police tried to move people on, appealing for respect for her privacy, one young man started shouting cos an officer touched his back, then a rasta started banging on about people's rights to see what was happening.  I more or less said (maybe shouted), that here we had an injured person on the ground who had to listen to people shouting and cussing police whilst we should all be allowing her some dignity and privacy as she was being treated.  The rasta's response to me was to make a comment along the lines of 'see how white people speak to us like we're stupid'.  My question to him and everyone else was, 'what the fuck has race got to do with anything here', but several people in the crowd agreed with him.   I think what it shows is huge resentment in some quarters of the Black community towards White people, possibly a reflection of people's frustrations at no justice following deaths in police custody, disproportionality in stop and search, high unemployment, and recent cases such as John Terry.  As an individual, I resent it if I'm judged by my race, but I remind myself that this happens rarely compared to the experience of BME communities in this country, and, on the scale of things, it does not impact significantly on my life.  Again, class plays a significant part in some of the above, but class analysis does not explain everything.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2012)

shygirl said:


> I wouldn't agree that Splash is prejudiced against other communities...


 
Which is why I said "arguably", i.e. it *could* be argued that they are, not that they actually are. This is what irks me: That people with long experience of racism have left themselves so open, on a number of fronts, to the same or similar charges.



> it just needs to be more honest and say that it is a celebration of Afro-Carib music/culture.


 
It does?
Foolish me. There was I hoping that something which leads with the word "Brixton" would actually be inclusive of *all* that Brixton has to offer, not just inclusive of Afro-Caribbean music and culture.



> It might be that it was hi-jacked to some extent from Pat and others, but it is what it is now. BTW, its absolutely piss poor and totally lacking in integrity that Pat still hasn't been acknowledged.


 
Quite.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> No! That's Bay Rum, not Bajan Rum...a very expensive mis-hearing
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_rum


 
I worked that one out.. 
Les did smell good though, better than if he *had* used Bay Rum.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 8, 2012)

shygirl said:


> Mabybe Splash should change its mission statement to be about celebrating Afro-Caribeann culture/contributions, and lose the bit about diversity? Not to exclude others, but to market it more honestly for what it seems to be at present. I know that wasn't the original idea, but it has clearly evolved in this way. The South Americans have a festival in Burgess Park, why not Splash to celebrate the above in Brixton? To be fair to Ros, I know that she tried to bring in other communities there was a cross-section of music/bands as I recall 2 years ago.
> 
> I do agree with other posters that 'the community' usually refer to Black Caribeanns as opposed to other African, South American, White British, Europeans, Asian communities. And that can feel very excluding and frustrating when the issues of one are given prominence over others. But doesn't much of it come from a sense that the Black Carib community has faced a hugely disproportionate amount of oppression/police harrassment over the years? *And here's another thing, as resources become ever dwindling, we ARE going to see communities resenting/fighting each other for the crumbs thrown down from above.*


 
All the more reason to have a unifying event. Not one which risks causing local resentment through focussing on one ethnic group which makes up less than 20% of the local population.

The Notting Hill Carnival is the biggest street party in Europe and is dedicated to celebrating the Afro Caribbean population. It served an important purpose of celebrating a group of people who had suffered repression. Introducing a new event with the same message 50yrs later when the original is stronger than ever is pointless. There is a new urgency now, which is to promote unity amongst diverse groups.

Splash can be progressive and ground breaking. At the moment it seems to be developing Notting Hillian copycat wannabe aspirations.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 8, 2012)

I agree with you Rushy, I definitely got it wrong earlier on Splash, and respect the responses I've had to it.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 8, 2012)

I thought it was 39%?


----------



## shygirl (Aug 8, 2012)

Got to get to work now.  Later.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> The Irish in the past have faced police harassment / oppression when the IRA was active. More recently those from Muslim communities have had the same attention from police as Irish used to get.
> 
> The South American community suffer from the attentions of the Border police. And do not forget the shooting of the Brazilian at Stockwell. Nothing happened about that. Latin Americans are not even acknowledged as an ethnic minority in this country for official purposes.
> 
> ...


 
^^^^This.
Back in days of yore ('70s-'80s) this was acknowledgedly what everything was about. Blacks (which back then meant "non-whites", so the label covered everyone from Afro-Caribbeans and Africans to Indians and Pakistanis, Thai, Chinese and points in-between, something that Jasper & Co might have been deemed too ready to forget, but Darcus isn't!) knew that what was going on was class struggle first and foremost, that working class urban whites were just as prey to police violence and intimidation.
Sadly, this was another set of solidarities eroded by official multiculturalism policies, so for the last 20 or so years we've had disparate "communities" of "race" where we used to have blacks and whites, mostly side by side.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2012)

leanderman said:


> I have always wondered about the local South Americans: How they get here. And whether they can stay here etc


 
It helps that Brixton and the surrounding area has a decent-sized Portuguese community, and a small Franco-era Spanish one. At least that's what I've been led to believe.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Some have residency here but not full citizenship. Over the last few years ,under the last Government and the present one, visas have become increasingly difficult to get. This was done by changing regulations not laws so has not really been discussed in parliament or got much media coverage. Its an easy way to placate people concerned about effects of immigration.
> 
> Some stay here after there visas run out or work here under the radar. Most come here on learning English visas. The visas limit hours of work to ridiculously small amounts like 10 hours a week. So many have one legal job get other jobs on side. Probably why they do not have a big profile as they do not want to attract attention.
> 
> ...


 
Quite. It's how people behave that matters.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 8, 2012)

shygirl said:


> I thought it was 39%?


The figure I quoted is specifically for the Caribbean population. If you include black and mixed race Africans the data is closer to 36% but they are culturally quite different groups. It's worth pointing out this data is about 10yrs old.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2012)

What I'd like to see at Splash is the usual traditional ska/dancehall/reggae etc sound systems as well as a rich mix of bands/DJs/live acts representing all aspects of the diverse community. And if that means 20 mins of some dodgy Portuguese hard rock band, so be it. They live here so it should be their festival too.

I'd like Splash to be an opportunity for folks to learn more about ALL other cultures that have settled here. Then it truly would be worthy of a diversity award.


----------



## RaverDrew (Aug 8, 2012)

An "Offline" stage ?


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> An "Offline" stage ?


Yes please!


----------



## ajdown (Aug 8, 2012)

editor said:


> I'd like Splash to be an opportunity for folks to learn more about ALL other cultures that have settled here. Then it truly would be worthy of a diversity award.


 
Any particular reason for excluding "White British" from this?  Surely if it's about the whole community coming together then it should indeed represent the whole community and not exclude us White British?  I'm sure they can learn something from/about us just as much as we can learn something from/about them.

I'm not necessarily talking about a team of morris dancers and a brass band from Yorkshire - but there has to be something we can offer, surely?  I seem to recall there was a punch up last time Chas & Dave were in Brixton


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2012)

ajdown said:


> Any particular reason for excluding "White British" from this?


I'm including white British in that definition of folks who have settled here. I'd love to have Morris dancers there too, if there's any kind of local connection.


----------



## RaverDrew (Aug 8, 2012)

I don't think those Morris dancers with the blacked-up faces would go down too well tbf


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## ajdown (Aug 8, 2012)

editor said:


> I'm including white British in that definition of folks who have settled here. I'd love to have Morris dancers there too, if there's any kind of local connection.


 
Blackheath or Croydon seem to be our nearest (scroll down to London) http://morrisdancing.wikia.com/wiki/Morris_teams_in_United_Kingdom

RaverDrew, the "blacked up morris dancers" tend to operate mostly in the north although they are rarer now, but people misunderstand the reasoning behind it - it's nothing to do with race, it was originally one way of disguising themselves when teams danced for money so that people couldn't recognise them. In terms of "intending to cause offence" it's really no different than wearing a mask or sunglasses (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/8123664.stm)

I guess "Olive Morris" is too tenuous a link...


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I don't think those Morris dancers with the blacked-up faces would go down too well tbf


If there was a real local connection they'd have every right to be there.

But there isn't, so it's an academic argument.


> Border Morris from the English-Welsh border: a simpler, looser, more vigorous style, traditionally danced with blackened faces, which was used as a disguise so the dancers would not be recognised by the local landowners whilst out 'begging' for money.


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## shygirl (Aug 8, 2012)

I have been concerned about White working class issues being ignored for years.  I worked for 5 years as an education welfare officer in Lambeth, and covered 15 schools, including a secondary school 4 days per week for the last year and a half.  During my time in the secondary school, the lowest performing group at one stage was White working class, both in terms of academic achievement and school attendance.  As is the case when any one ethnic group is seen as needing support to up their attainment, it seemed sensible to address this, so I proposed and set up a small support group for the worst attenders/least motivated White girls, to explore why they weren't coming in, their hopes for the future, etc.  The group was not named as being for White girls, but it certainly was helpful to those involved to share experiences of schooling, parental expectations of them, etc.  It caused a few waves within the staff team, but overall, was seen as an initiative to support these pupils.   I couldn't understand why a few objected to it.

I think a new book on low achievements of White and Black working class boys was published only recently.  Must try to find out title.


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## spanglechick (Aug 8, 2012)

shygirl said:


> I have been concerned about White working class issues being ignored for years. I worked for 5 years as an education welfare officer in Lambeth, and covered 15 schools, including a secondary school 4 days per week for the last year and a half. During my time in the secondary school, the lowest performing group at one stage was White working class, both in terms of academic achievement and school attendance. As is the case when any one ethnic group is seen as needing support to up their attainment, it seemed sensible to address this, so I proposed and set up a small support group for the worst attenders/least motivated White girls, to explore why they weren't coming in, their hopes for the future, etc. The group was not named as being for White girls, but it certainly was helpful to those involved to share experiences of schooling, parental expectations of them, etc. It caused a few waves within the staff team, but overall, was seen as an initiative to support these pupils. I couldn't understand why a few objected to it.
> 
> I think a new book on low achievements of White and Black working class boys was published only recently. Must try to find out title.


i teach at a girl's school in southwark and 'white british' has been our lowest academically performing group for at least the last ten years.


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## Onket (Aug 8, 2012)

The 'white british' representatives don't have to be bloody morris dancers, you know. Talk about stereotyping!


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## Rushy (Aug 8, 2012)

Onket said:


> The 'white british' representatives don't have to be bloody morris dancers, you know. Talk about stereotyping!


Can't dance, can't jump, can't sing.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Can't dance, can't jump, can't sing.


 
They'll go far!!!


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## ajdown (Aug 8, 2012)

Onket said:


> The 'white british' representatives don't have to be bloody morris dancers, you know. Talk about stereotyping!


 
What do you suggest?  A bunch of beer-bellied, balding guys drive up in Transit vans, drink some cheap beer, throw up on the pavement then have a punch up?


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## Onket (Aug 8, 2012)

ajdown said:


> What do you suggest? A bunch of beer-bellied, balding guys drive up in Transit vans, drink some cheap beer, throw up on the pavement then have a punch up?


 


And how would you suggest the Jamaican representatives act?

I know you're attempting humour, but it's not really very funny, is it.


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## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2012)

shygirl said:


> As a White woman, I've had my fair share of being stereo-typed/disprespected by some Black people. The most recent example was a couple of weeks ago at the scene of a road accident on Brixton Road. A young woman had been knocked down, the ambulance didn't arrive for about 20 mins and she was being treated on the ground. The police were shielding her from a large crowd of onlookers (including myself). As the police tried to move people on, appealing for respect for her privacy, one young man started shouting cos an officer touched his back, then a rasta started banging on about people's rights to see what was happening. I more or less said (maybe shouted), that here we had an injured person on the ground who had to listen to people shouting and cussing police whilst we should all be allowing her some dignity and privacy as she was being treated. The rasta's response to me was to make a comment along the lines of 'see how white people speak to us like we're stupid'. My question to him and everyone else was, 'what the fuck has race got to do with anything here', but several people in the crowd agreed with him. I think what it shows is huge resentment in some quarters of the Black community towards White people, possibly a reflection of people's frustrations at no justice following deaths in police custody, disproportionality in stop and search, high unemployment, and recent cases such as John Terry. As an individual, I resent it if I'm judged by my race, but I remind myself that this happens rarely compared to the experience of BME communities in this country, and, on the scale of things, it does not impact significantly on my life. Again, class plays a significant part in some of the above, but class analysis does not explain everything.


 
I have no tolerance for this kind of behaviour. So Rastas human rights were being infringed because he could not see someone badly injured and in pain? Tosser.

I passed by this accident. I was coming home on my bike and the road was taped off. So I walked it by accident to get to other side of tape. I saw the woman was conscious but had head injuries. She was crying out in shock and pain. Two police women were trying to help her.

I did not hang around as I thought the crowd , which was straining to get a look, should have given her some space.

I think the way you were talked to was out of order.


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## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2012)

though ur right about police stopping Black guys in cars


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## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2012)

shygirl said:


> And there ARE racial tensions in Brixton at street level, its not the great big onion we'd all like to think it is. Certainly, there is tension between Afro-Carib and Afghan/Pakistani businesses/staff. The whole thing about naming and shaming non-contributors to Splash came about out of this particular dynamic - established businesses, who stock Black hair/beauty products refused to donate and were seen as being happy to take Black people's money but not to put anything in to support Splash. I agree that Lee's decision to name and shame was entirely wrong and bullying, I'm not defending that here.
> 
> Another complaint from within the Black community is the way the Afghan/Pakistani men speak to Black women, with lots of sexual innuendos, etc. I have witnessed a lot of this whilst going through the market. The point being made from within the Black community is that they would not like their sisters or mothers to be spoken to in this way, so why are they doing it to others? I'm not saying that I agree with everything that is being said, but I am aware that there is disquiet about these things.
> 
> .


 
Ive said before that Brixton is a community of communities and not everyone gets on all the time. Nor do I think they should have to in some imposed PC way.

Your comment about Black people complaining that Asians take Black peoples money but do not put anything into Splash was the unpleasant undercurrent behind Jasper putting the Asians phone number on his twitter imo. But as posters have said repeatedly ( see Eds posts here) BS says on it website its about the "ethnic fusion" of Brixton etc.

Over the years I have heard all these complaints. I have changed my views recently. When all the East Europeans came here I heard Black British complain about them. Specifically I was talking to two Black British women and they complained about Poles coming here who will work for less. Also I have heard complaints from Black British about Somalis getting asylum status here. So anti immigration views are not only to be found in the White British community.

Friction between communities is often about woman and sex. Its woman who carry the cultural purity in different cultures.

I have seen Asian men treat Black women with respect. I was in an Asian shop and the Black African woman was having a go at them for not speaking English. The shopkeeper was only telling his assistant to get some bags to pack up what she had bought. She was being obnoxious. After she went I said I was not bothered about them speaking there own language and that I thought they had been really patient with her.

London is now so complicated and diverse that the kind of politics of race pursued by Jasper and Splash no longer works.


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## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2012)

ajdown said:


> What do you suggest? A bunch of beer-bellied, balding guys drive up in Transit vans, drink some cheap beer, throw up on the pavement then have a punch up?


 
Sounds good to me

Bit like this

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...ast-pleasant-aspects-of-britain-2012080737322


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## kenny g (Aug 8, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> After she went I said I was not bothered about them speaking there own language and that I thought they had been really patient with her.


 
Why did you wait for her to leave? Would you have said something in her presence of she were white?


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## Gramsci (Aug 8, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Why did you wait for her to leave? Would you have said something in her presence of she was white?


 
No. Learnt that often you are only going to make it worse. Depends what mood I'm in as well.


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## kenny g (Aug 8, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> No. Learnt that often you are only going to make it worse. Depends what mood I'm in as well.


 
Last time I stepped in was on a dread locked (white) rascist on a bus in moss side going on about refugees. Was worth it for the smiles from the other passengers.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 9, 2012)

ajdown said:


> What do you suggest? A bunch of beer-bellied, balding guys drive up in Transit vans, drink some cheap beer, throw up on the pavement then have a punch up?


you forgot to mention the warm up act of alcopops swilling chavs


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## ajdown (Aug 9, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> you forgot to mention the warm up act of alcopops swilling chavs


 
They'll probably just turn up without being asked.  Enough of them around the UK as it is.


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## TopCat (Aug 9, 2012)

editor said:


> I'm including white British in that definition of folks who have settled here. I'd love to have Morris dancers there too, if there's any kind of local connection.


Morris Dancers can go and fuck off.


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## TopCat (Aug 9, 2012)

ajdown said:


> What do you suggest? A bunch of beer-bellied, balding guys drive up in Transit vans, drink some cheap beer, throw up on the pavement then have a punch up?


Your not funny.


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## ajdown (Aug 9, 2012)

Did you mean "You're"?


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## Onket (Aug 9, 2012)

ajdown has outed him/herself as 'a bit' of a prick, here.


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## Onket (Aug 9, 2012)

Careful now.


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## claphamboy (Aug 9, 2012)

Back on topic, I am genuinely puzzled why they will not credit Pat for coming up with the idea.

I can understand the problems that could develop if they tried to do a roll call of everyone that has helped in some way over the years, but to fail to credit the guy that first come up with the idea just beggars belief IMO.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> London is now so complicated and diverse that the kind of politics of race pursued by Jasper and Splash no longer works.


 
I'd say rather that it only works if people let it.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> Back on topic, I am genuinely puzzled why they will not credit Pat for coming up with the idea.
> 
> I can understand the problems that could develop if they tried to do a roll call of everyone that has helped in some way over the years, but to fail to credit the guy that first come up with the idea just beggars belief IMO.


 
I think that there are several contributory explanations, some of which intersect/interconnect.

1) It's now been promoted as a Blacker/Ros thing for at least the last 4 years, so a "mythology" has been constructed that views Splash as a "black thing".
2) Acknowledging Pat's place would show up certain people in the local community as foolish at best, mendacious at worst.
3) Some people may have genuinely come to believe that Pat's role was either minimal or non-existent. If you tell yourself something enough times, you start to believe it.
4) There are purely *political* reasons why certain people would rather not acknowledge Pat's role, and that includes local party-politicians who fell in behind the Blacker/Ros mythology, not just people like LJ who play the identity politics game.


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## TopCat (Aug 10, 2012)

ajdown said:


> Did you mean "You're"?


Your a knob. ~


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## editor (Aug 10, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yeah. If it's a tech thread the Ed allows rampant thread derails but if it's Brixton you have to follow the rules...


Or maybe it's because this thread might actually make a difference to someone's life and is about something that is of real interest to some members of the community who want to see fair play being exercised.

Now quit the irrelevant cross thread beef please. It's pathetic and disruptive.


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## Ozone (Aug 10, 2012)

Just noticed a discrepancy on the history page of the Splash website (not sure if it has already been picked up) but it may give you/Pat something to work with?

Splash website says:


"On* Sunday 13th August 2006*, the community of Brixton, supported by Lambeth Council and the Metropolitan Police Service, held a street festival centred on Coldharbour Lane, this event was called Brixton Splash."



But according to Pat's posts (see Coldharbour Lane Party.....looking for volunteers thread), the first Splash was held on Monday, *29th of May 2006. *See 1st post on thread: "Lambeth Council have graciously allowed us to close Coldharbour Lane from K.F.C down to the Dogstar on bank holiday monday (29th) for a street party"



So which is correct? I'm going with Pat as the evidence is in the threads...or did they change the dates? (Before my time in Brixton - sorry)


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## editor (Aug 10, 2012)

Ozone said:


> Just noticed a discrepancy on the history page of the Splash website (not sure if it has already been picked up) but it may give you/Pat something to work with?
> 
> Splash website says:
> 
> ...


They changed the dates - read the whole original thread.


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## Ozone (Aug 10, 2012)

Ahh, sorry, I thought that may be the case, but I couldn't find a post re changing of dates in the thread.....
*will go and read thread properly before posting again*


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## editor (Jun 7, 2022)

Incredibly, some people are still trying to take credit for the event:


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## Gramsci (Jun 8, 2022)

editor said:


> Incredibly, some people are still trying to take credit for the event:
> 
> View attachment 326009




What this is about is rivalries between different community leaders. 

I know its aggravating that Pat is completely left out of it.


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