# bristol indymedia: press release (pre-server seizure) (2)



## WasGeri (Jun 25, 2005)

Thought this thread might be of interest to Bristol posters:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=119757

There is also a (rather heated) discussion on this thread:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=119284


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## Sunspots (Jun 25, 2005)

_<heavy sigh>_

-Yep, I've been following the threads for the last few days.  

IMO, Zaskar's fatuousness really seems to have excelled with regards to this latest incident.

_At the very least,_ he's a reckless, egocentric, loose cannon.  On the strength of what I've seen, that's honestly the most charitable thing I can say.

There's really not a lot more I can post on this subject at the moment without resorting to outright swearing and insults.


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## fat hamster (Jun 25, 2005)

marvellous


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 25, 2005)

What's Zaskar got to do with this? I read Geri's Bristol Indymedia thread* and I don't understand what he's got to do with anything.


<edited to add>


* D'oh, I mean this thread...too many windows open at once


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 25, 2005)

fat hamster said:
			
		

> marvellous



plagiarist


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 25, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> What's Zaskar got to do with this? I read Geri's Bristol Indymedia thread* and I don't understand what he's got to do with anything.



zaskar (who used to be involved in bristol indymedia) contacted the police.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 25, 2005)

Oh right. I get it now.


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## fat hamster (Jun 25, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> plagiarist


plagiaristist!


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## munkeeunit (Jun 25, 2005)

No Comment.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ps: You all like writing loads, any of you ever tried your hands at writing articles? It's not as difficult or as daunting as it seems. Some articles only need to be a few sentences, as long as the info is pertinent enough.

Although, one line articles along the lines of "BIM is crap, discuss." nowadays just get binned, as ironically and paradoxically enough, they were the very type of thing making BIM crap.

Go on, have a go. Some of the submissions here are only a couple of sentences short of a submission. (I'm sure there's a pun in there somewhere.)

Go on, you know you want to


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## Sunspots (Jun 25, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> Go on, have a go. Some of the submissions here are only a couple of sentences short of a submission. (I'm sure there's a pun in there somewhere.)



I WILL SUBMIT TO NO-ONE!!!


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## munkeeunit (Jun 25, 2005)

Sunspots said:
			
		

> I WILL SUBMIT TO NO-ONE!!!




Hmmm...

Maybe you've hit a nail on the head.

Having the expression

SUBMIT AN ARTICLE

may put off the dominatrix's amongst you from submitting,

while the submissives need to be given an article to submit to in advance.

A recipe for a sub-dom snarl-up.


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## Isambard (Jun 25, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> : You all like writing loads, any of you ever tried your hands at writing articles?



Oh yes, we do. we can. Funnilly enough there's a fair number of Urbanites who are involved in 101 projects across Bristol and the South West. Some of us have even had stuff published in "CheeezCider on the Fosse" Weekly Mercury so fuck off with your condasending wank; my luvver.


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## munkeeunit (Jun 26, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Oh yes, we do. we can. Funnilly enough there's a fair number of Urbanites who are involved in 101 projects across Bristol and the South West. Some of us have even had stuff published in "CheeezCider on the Fosse" Weekly Mercury so fuck off with your condasending wank; my luvver.



Cor blimey me luvver I weren't beiong no condescending wank. Jus trying to make youse all feel more come-for-table.

I knows from ex-peer-e-ence that somertimes people donts ree-cog-neyes know there own all-reddy eggs-sisting eerbiliteyes.


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## munkeeunit (Jun 26, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Oh yes, we do. we can. Funnilly enough there's a fair number of Urbanites who are involved in 101 projects across Bristol and the South West. Some of us have even had stuff published in "CheeezCider on the Fosse" Weekly Mercury so fuck off with your condasending wank; my luvver.



PS: Just thought about your response a bit more, and as my original pitch was directed at people who *don't* yet write articles, your response, as someone who already does, is kind of equivalent to seeing an advert saying something like...


Advert : "ever thought, of being a brain surgeon?"

Isambards Response : "I already am a brain surgeon you condescending wank!"

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, for those who *already do* write articles (and possibly fix brains while they're at it), it would be great to see your articles posted up on BIM too. Sorry, we can't pay you coz that's not what we're about. I don't get any cash for my efforts, and if anything we might even ask for a donation too.

But hey, that's open publishing for you.   

MUNKEE! MUNKEE!


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## Isambard (Jun 26, 2005)

errrrm, I was a bit tanked when I wrote the above, sorry.   


The issue isn't whether BIM is any good at all.
The issue is that an individual has proudly exposed himself as a willing grass.
Even if I didn't give a flying fuck for BIM, it certainly has implications for this community.


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## munkeeunit (Jun 26, 2005)

What I'm concerned with at present is how XXX (Zaskar) has spent the last 5 hours trying to disrupt the BIM newswire, by repeatedly posting up articles along the lines of.

""Cum Spattered Survivor Describes Sex Riot in Druggy Vegan Cafe"
"Found a stray pigeon in Bristol"

and so on.

I was quite willing to accept there was no malice towards BIM in his report of the incident to the police. 

Now I am not so sure.


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## WasGeri (Jun 26, 2005)

Is there the facility to ban a disruptive poster?


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## munkeeunit (Jun 26, 2005)

Not easily at present. Our current codebase is a bit of a mess, but we are shortly due to switch over to a new code, which should make it a lot easier to put delays on the ability to post, etc.

People can help if they like by testing the new site for us for any bugs. Uploading articles, pictures, files, etc, and then reporting back any problems to me with a clear description, as a PM, would be very useful, and will speed things up, as currently my time, and others vols time, to do this kind of this is being thoroughtly wasted on moderating this kind of rubbish.

http://bristol.indymedia.org/oscailt

Thanks.


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## Zaskar (Jun 26, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> What I'm concerned with at present is how XXX (Zaskar) has spent the last 5 hours trying to disrupt the BIM newswire, by repeatedly posting up articles along the lines of.
> 
> ""Cum Spattered Survivor Describes Sex Riot in Druggy Vegan Cafe"
> "Found a stray pigeon in Bristol"
> ...



Well, munkee, I have actually been at work for the last five hours.  My postings on bim in the last 24 hours have been very few and very sober.  If you require rpoof of this I am happy to supply this thru the PM system.  I really am quite prepared to cop it (as always) for the real stuff i post.  I always post under the same name.

It really is very unfortunate that anyone can post anything under any name IMHO.

I am glad to see that you appreciate I intended no malice in my original action, except to the rock droppers.

Geri, the discussion you mention was not heated, it was infantile, threatening and hurtfull.


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## fat hamster (Jun 26, 2005)

Did you post these articles - ""Cum Spattered Survivor Describes Sex Riot in Druggy Vegan Cafe" and "Found a Stray Pigeon in Bristol" -  on Bristol Indymedia, Zaskar?


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## Zaskar (Jun 26, 2005)

fat hamster said:
			
		

> Did you post these articles - ""Cum Spattered Survivor Describes Sex Riot in Druggy Vegan Cafe" and "Found a Stray Pigeon in Bristol" -  on Bristol Indymedia, Zaskar?


As I said, no.  Clearly some very odd people are attempting to dicredit me.

I NEVER post abuse  (except amybe once i think).  I always post in my own name.  I always am honest and take the falk, even when it is just nasty abuse and attempt to engage and discuss.

i have no idea what is going on.

If you require further proof, pm me and I am happy to proove I have been at work with no access to a computer.


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## munkeeunit (Jun 26, 2005)

The very statement, you never post abuse is a ridiculous and completely indefensible lie.

An example of the utterly disgusting scale of abuse XXX is capable of is  found about two-thirds of the way down this thread.
http://bristol.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/23504/index.php?comment_view=1


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## jannerboyuk (Jun 26, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> The very statement, you never post abuse is a ridiculous and completely indefensible lie.
> 
> An example of the utterly disgusting scale of abuse XXX is capable of is  found about two-thirds of the way down this thread.
> http://bristol.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/23504/index.php?comment_view=1


Can I just say that Zaskar is clearly a fruitloop but everyone else on here is allowed the anonymity of a user name and I don't think it is right for people to decide unilaterally that Zaskar shouldn't also enjoy this (although i do think the mods should ban him and his abusive chum for the abuse and slander they have dished out.)
Cheers
Jeff Baxter


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 26, 2005)

Yes. Do not use real names please - it's in the rules.


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## marty21 (Jun 26, 2005)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> Can I just say that Zaskar is clearly a fruitloop but everyone else on here is allowed the anonymity of a user name and I don't think it is right for people to decide unilaterally that Zaskar shouldn't also enjoy this (although i do think the mods should ban him and his abusive chum for the abuse and slander they have dished out.)
> Cheers
> Jeff Baxter



who is his abusive chum?


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## munkeeunit (Jun 26, 2005)

Then again, I've noticed someone else who lurks on Urban 75, but who never comments, but whose tag begins with I and ends in S, and is well known for his earlier sabotage of BIM in unison with his chums Zaskar and Bad News Wade.

Oh well, whoever it is, their silly mess is tidied up now.

Hopefully the bonds between that grotty trio will now begin to disintegrate.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 26, 2005)

spill the beans!

who dat?


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## munkeeunit (Jun 26, 2005)

If you watch the currently active users box at the bottom of the screen you should be able to work it out, there's only two letters between the I and the S Funny how I've noticed him lurking there all afternoon while BIM was trolled. Should have maybe put the two together earlier.

Hi I**S,

Having fun?


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## Isambard (Jun 26, 2005)

Ashton Court is just around the corner    and there'll be Bristolites from near and far, old and new, getting together for all the fun, the pubs, the discussions, the music and hanging out together. How is someone who is maybe new to Urban and wanting to be part of the community suppoosed to feel? Are they going to have to bite their tongue not knowing whether it is safe to say their opinion in our community? 

All leaves a rather nasty taste in the mouth.


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## butchersapron (Jun 26, 2005)

Does anyone suspect that todays episodes were an IP testing exercise by Z.s mates - 'ban us for this, you *do have* our IPs don't you?' sort of thing - when Z. was handily at work...


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## munkeeunit (Jun 26, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Ashton Court is just around the corner    and there'll be Bristolites from near and far, old and new, getting together for all the fun, the pubs, the discussions, the music and hanging out together. How is someone who is maybe new to Urban and wanting to be part of the community suppoosed to feel? Are they going to have to bite their tongue not knowing whether it is safe to say their opinion in our community?
> 
> All leaves a rather nasty taste in the mouth.



Yes, Indeed. I've  been trying very hard not to comment on any of this, and this is the first thread I've commented on, in response to further trolling of BIM. I'll revert to holding my tongue.


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## butchersapron (Jun 26, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> If you watch the currently active users box at the bottom of the screen you should be able to work it out, there's only two letters between the I and the S Funny how I've noticed him lurking there all afternoon while BIM was trolled. Should have maybe put the two together earlier.
> 
> Hi I**S,
> 
> Having fun?


 Get out of our forum Ern!

I got no info when i clicked on inks. It said i wasn't allowed....

and it's not in the members list...


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## Sunspots (Jun 26, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Does anyone suspect that todays episodes were an IP testing exercise by Z.s mates - 'ban us for this, you *do have* our IPs don't you?' sort of thing - when Z. was handily at work...



I wondered something like that, yeah.  The _'I was at work'_ alibi doesn't really count for anything, does it.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 26, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Ashton Court is just around the corner    and there'll be Bristolites from near and far, old and new, getting together for all the fun, the pubs, the discussions, the music and hanging out together. How is someone who is maybe new to Urban and wanting to be part of the community suppoosed to feel? Are they going to have to bite their tongue not knowing whether it is safe to say their opinion in our community?
> 
> All leaves a rather nasty taste in the mouth.



well, nasty taste or no, we can't shy away from sorting this all out. it's out in the open and we can't afford to ignore it.


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## butchersapron (Jun 26, 2005)

100%


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## fat hamster (Jun 26, 2005)

WTF???     

I clicked on "inks" and got:


> fat hamster, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
> 
> Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
> 
> If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.


Click on anyone else's name at the bottom of the forum, and you get their user profile.


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## Sunspots (Jun 26, 2005)

fat hamster said:
			
		

> WTF???
> 
> I clicked on "inks" and got:
> 
> Click on anyone else's name at the bottom of the forum, and you get their user profile.



Yeah, I got the same too.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 26, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Ashton Court is just around the corner    and there'll be Bristolites from near and far, old and new, getting together for all the fun, the pubs, the discussions, the music and hanging out together. How is someone who is maybe new to Urban and wanting to be part of the community suppoosed to feel?



there you go - post encouraging messages to newbies


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## Isambard (Jun 26, 2005)

@ B-KRS and BA: No we CAN'T ignore it! 
That wasn't an appeal to be fluffy and "we're all friends" kind of bullshit.
You think I'm a hippy or something?   

I meant nasty taste in the mouth in that Urban is a community and people feel to a greater or lesser extent, safe in that community. Sadly, one individual and associated mates / other narks has done his best to undermine that feeling of community over the last while.

The only grass I want to see at Ashton Court is the fields where I'm enjoying the company of Bristolites.


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## butchersapron (Jun 26, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> @ B-KRS and BA: No we CAN'T ignore it!
> That wasn't an appeal to be fluffy and "we're all friends" kind of bullshit.
> You think I'm a hippy or something?
> 
> ...


 Wrong end of the stick there mate! I think we were both agreeing with you.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 26, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> The only grass I want to see at Ashton Court is the fields where I'm enjoying the company of Bristolites.



lol!

post of the weekend


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## fat hamster (Jun 26, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> The only grass I want to see at Ashton Court is the fields where I'm enjoying the company of Bristolites.


Really??


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## fat hamster (Jun 26, 2005)

I see "inks" has logged off...


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## Sunspots (Jun 26, 2005)

fat hamster said:
			
		

> I see "inks" has logged off...



Strange: I can't even find _'inks'_ on the member list...


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## Serotonin (Jun 27, 2005)

I'm pretty sure its obvious who has been disrputing the newswire.

The comments and 'spoof' artiicles in the name of Zaskar  started not long after 2 posters named 'head' and 'neck' started posting.

I think you can find their identities far closer to home (well urban 75) if you have a browse of a certain other activists forum on this site...

For those slow on the uptake...

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=119593


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2005)

if you have something to say, say it


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## Serotonin (Jun 27, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> if you have something to say, say it




Theres nothing more to say. I will let people draw their own conclusions.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2005)

in other words, you are more than happy to employ innuendo and smears 0 the very things you accused other people of doing.

marvellous 

name names or stfu


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## Serotonin (Jun 27, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> in other words, you are more than happy to employ innuendo and smears 0 the very things you accused other people of doing.
> 
> marvellous
> 
> name names or stfu




As many people here were quick to jump to conclusions and make smears about other things.

Funny how what goes around comes around isn't it?


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2005)

i think you'll find that if you actually *read* all the threads in question, that is not what has happened, except when badnewswade, zaskar and your good self have chosen to do it.


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## fat hamster (Jun 27, 2005)

Serotonin said:
			
		

> I think you can find their identities far closer to home (well urban 75) if you have a browse of a certain other activists forum on this site...
> 
> For those slow on the uptake...
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=119593


I'm not usually "slow on the uptake" but I've read the thread you linked to and I haven't a clue who or what you're talking about.

Who exactly do you think is posting  on BIM in Zaskar's name?  And who are "neck", "head" and "tongue"?


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## munkeeunit (Jun 27, 2005)

Judging by this bizarre admission in a comment moved to our hidden section.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Auote: "by anonymous, ian onions and head
Hidden by imcvol with code: Policy Violation
Notes: (apeinme) off-topic. "It's great being Zaskar. This identity transplant thing could really work for us. To my knowledge onions was a faceless, low grade beurocrat of some kind and anonymous used to be an unemployable 90s casualty in a council house whose career involved wiring up circuit boards the wrong way and suffering from low grade mental ilnesses for money. Head was of course the famous activist hero of the working class Richard Head. But that was before the ID transplant operation that tranformed their lives. All these people - and more- are delighted to find that they are now international man of mystery and well known secret agent Zaskar (agent "Z"), and not the sad losers they were before the operation, which involved disagreeing with BIM and then being told they are Zaskar. You too could be an international man of mystery and suspense, just disagree with BIM about the rock dropping incident and your identity will vanish. You will find yourself surrounded by computer monitors and ready meals, with a disintigrating house of your very own and a vendetta / grudge from hell against BIM and indeed all activists which results in you being an evil traitor to the community. You'll also be required to stamp on kittens, drown puppies, strangle bunny rabits and pop the heads of baby mice. That is all."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The troll who spent 4 hours yesterday disrupting BIM with abuse and drivel has private knowledge of Zaskar's home.


"You will find yourself surrounded by computer monitors and ready meals, with a disintigrating house of your very own."


There are only 3 other people / user names who I think have this kind of private knowledge, judging by their thick as thieves previous attempts to bring BIM to it's knees by an outpouring of unrelenting idiocy earlier this year / and the turn of last year. Other attempts to bring other IMC's to their knees have been made, but only by Nazi's. In Bristol it's been done by a quartet of total idiots.

Zaskar, Badnewswade, Inks, Serotonin.

All of these usernames should be distributed around the net as undertaking actions intended to destroy the indymedia project, as have nazi's and fascists elsewhere.


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## Sunspots (Jun 27, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> The troll who spent 4 hours yesterday disrupting BIM with abuse and drivel has private knowledge of Zaskar's home.
> 
> 
> "You will find yourself surrounded by computer monitors and ready meals, with a disintigrating house of your very own."



Tbh, that sounds like several people's home to me.   /


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## munkeeunit (Jun 27, 2005)

Hmmm. Guess so.

But if the idiot quartet continue disrupting BIM in the lead up to the G8 summit, then the only conclusion left to reach is that they are intent on disrupting BIM in the lead up to the G8 summit.

That is the mud which will stick.

And these usernames will be distributed to around 10,000 inboxes by myself alone.

If the disruption continues that is.


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## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

Well, this is all getting rather nasty and silly.

I am dumfounded by the stupididy and prejudice displayed by many.

I have never wanted to bring any imc to it's knees.  BIMC are quite capable of that without assistance.  I DID have a rather daft spat with Tomas Rawlings over his promotional activities on the site.  Even then I always posted as 'zaskar'.  I have made no secret of this.

BIM it should be noted have often behaved rather bizzarely as they cling to this idea that some mysterious group are 'persecuting' them.  What nonsense.

Munkeeunit continues to cling to his alternate view of the world and me.  Odd.

If I was all these ridiculous things I would have shut down the site ages ago wouldnt I ?  I had moderator access for about a year and even without that the site is about as open to hacking as it is possible to be.

Some of the BIM volunteers, and some of the posters are the sites problems, but it aint me.  I merely have the temerity to be guilty of thought, dissent and the desire to debate.

I suspect none of what I say matters one iota.  Certain people, including mr unit have made theri mind up and it fits with tyhier rather odd view of the world to think 'baddies' are out to get them at every turn.

In actual fact I am merely a person who has had a brush with death that left him hardly able to walk.  I started filmamking to keep me busy during a protracted (now nearly complete) recovery.  My Doc told me if I wanted to get well I had to get out and just walk walk walk.  So I walked around with all my heavy camera stuff making films at a furious rate.  I now have the bug and am respected in many quarters for my new found skills.  Again I expect those who are so sure of certain 'facts' will discount this as more lies.  Whatever....  I expect many will use this info against me.... oh well.....

It is bizarre and sad that many other motivations have been attributed to me.


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## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> Hmmm. Guess so.
> 
> But if the idiot quartet continue disrupting BIM in the lead up to the G8 summit, then the only conclusion left to reach is that they are intent on disrupting BIM in the lead up to the G8 summit.
> 
> ...



You complete and utter fool.


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## munkeeunit (Jun 27, 2005)

As I said,

*if* the disruption continues.

I will act upon this, in this manner.


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## Sunspots (Jun 27, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> Hmmm. Guess so.
> 
> But if the idiot quartet continue disrupting BIM in the lead up to the G8 summit, then the only conclusion left to reach is that they are intent on disrupting BIM in the lead up to the G8 summit.
> 
> ...



If they really are quite as moronic as you suggest (-which IMO seems to be the case!), I would imagine the timing in relation to the G8 is probably mere coincidence.  

The way I see it, it's just a personal vendetta being obsessively played out _(by both 'sides', I think)_. i.e: Zaskar et al jumped at the chance to disrupt BIM by squealing to the police, and BIM which is no doubt _loving_ the (-fully deserved, IMO) public flogging that Zaskar et al are receiving here and elsewhere.

I still think Zaskar is fatuous and disruptive; but IMO, _both_ sides of this dispute need their fucking heads banging together.


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## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> As I said,
> 
> *if* the disruption continues.
> 
> I will act upon this, in this manner.



That really is a pathetic and pointless threat.  I say it will reflect rahter poorly on you if you do this, even more than the threat already has.

I am not responsible for any of the current 'disruption' and am none of the things you think I am.  Yet you feel comfortable issuing silly little threats.

You really should take a long hard look at yourself and the wider ramifications of what you are threatening.

If you carry out this threat, it makes absoloutly no difference to me.  People will make up thier own minds whatever shite you feel justified in spouting, and I suspect much of these judgements will be about you and your conduct.

I am respected by many for many film work and continue to be approached with new and challenging projects.  If you wish to use your mail list to frustrate this, go ahead, but personally I wouldnt feel comfortable with myself for acting in this way.  But there agian it really is quite typical of you.


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## munkeeunit (Jun 27, 2005)

I'm honestly not enjoying any of this. As of last monday I had cleared my decks all of committments for a few months, as my health is failing me. Having spend the last week up to my ears in legal gibberish, and trolls on BIM, I am not at all prepared to put up with a single day more of this.

The press release makes no mention of Zaskar, as is exactly as it should be. 

And I do appreciate the feeling of others that heads should be banged together.


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## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

Sunspots said:
			
		

> If they really are quite as moronic as you suggest (-which IMO seems to be the case!), I would imagine the timing in relation to the G8 is probably mere coincidence.
> 
> The way I see it, it's just a personal vendetta being obsessively played out _(by both 'sides', I think)_. i.e: Zaskar et al jumped at the chance to disrupt BIM by squealing to the police, and BIM which is no doubt _loving_ the (-fully deserved, IMO) public flogging that Zaskar et al are receiving here and elsewhere.
> 
> I still think Zaskar is fatuous and disruptive; but IMO, _both_ sides of this dispute need their fucking heads banging together.



A public flogging by some of the numties on the activist section of u75 is rahter meaningless.  I think they just made themselves look like thick bullies.

As for my action with the rozzers, it was about the rock droppers not bim, but it suits their twisted agenda to cry foul.

NONE of the current rather silly disruption is anything to do with me.  I have said this many times.  Clearly it matters not one iota what the truth is.


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## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> I'm honestly not enjoying any of this. As of last monday I had cleared my decks all of committments for a few months, as my health is failing me. Having spend the last week up to my ears in legal gibberish, and trolls on BIM, I am not at all prepared to put up with a single day more of this.
> 
> The press release makes no mention of Zaskar, as is exactly as it should be.
> 
> And I do appreciate the feeling of others that heads should be banged together.




Yes me too actually.  I have found some of the threats dished out to me (shoot me ect... ) to be very upsetting.  I continue to be distressed by the prejudice and nasty group think we are seeing.  I really think we are whitnessing the online equivalent of an online mob hanging.  Ridiculous.

I am sorry you are unwell Mr Unit.  Believe you me I had a very bad time the other night when some wankers were threatening to come and 'get me' in some very colourfull ways.

If this is making you ill.  Try using occams razor and look at the truth.  It really is quite simple.  You might considor actually talking to me to find out what the truth is ..... ? ?


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## Sunspots (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> You really should take a long hard look at yourself...






			
				Zaskar said:
			
		

> People will make up thier own minds whatever shite you feel justified in spouting, and I suspect much of these judgements will be about you and your conduct.






			
				Zaskar said:
			
		

> If you wish to use your mail list to frustrate this, go ahead, but personally I wouldnt feel comfortable with myself for acting in this way.



Er... -take a look in the mirror!


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

Do you not think that having my person threatened oin this forum, abused and villified and threatened again and again might have had that effect?

I am quite happy with my conduct and deeply saddened by what we have seen from amny others.  I understnd these things are typical on TBs but it is nonethe less a very poor show.

I am not and have not and will not threaten anyone.


----------



## layabout (Jun 27, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> Hmmm. Guess so.
> 
> But if the idiot quartet continue disrupting BIM in the lead up to the G8 summit, then the only conclusion left to reach is that they are intent on disrupting BIM in the lead up to the G8 summit.
> 
> ...



Sorry but you are making yourself sound like a real nasty piece of work. 

You need to sit back, have a cup of tea, get a nights kip in and ensure that you, your organisation and your site cannot be sabotaged so easily. If you bothered to do that, you would not be so paranoid, threatening and offensive in the name of being defensive.

There are better ways to protect yourself than dishing out such threats. If you was to carry out such a threat, it sounds like many people would lose and in the long run, your organisation / project has the most to lose.


----------



## munkeeunit (Jun 27, 2005)

As I said, my health is such that this is a means of last resort to try and get some peace. It is an act of desperation.

As also said, no mention of Zaskar is made in the press release, which is exactly as it should be. BIM has not inititated the U75 'witch-hunt'

I have stayed out of the U75 toxic rows, until having to put up with another 4-5 hours of infantile and pointless disruption yesterday.

BIM is due to transfer to a more secure codebase, but there's been no time to work further on that this last week.


----------



## jannerboyuk (Jun 27, 2005)

layabout said:
			
		

> There are better ways to protect yourself than dishing out such threats. If you was to carry out such a threat, it sounds like many people would lose and in the long run, your organisation / project has the most to lose.


What do you care about a radical media project you tory cunt?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 27, 2005)

What? That's uncalled for.


----------



## Sunspots (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> Do you not think that having my person threatened oin this forum, abused and villified and threatened again and again might have had that effect?



Just stop and ask yourself _why_ people might have reacted to you in the way they have.

I think you brought all this entirely on yourself the moment you went straight to the police _instead of contacting BIM first_.

End. Of. Fucking. Story. IMO.   

_<walks away from thread>_


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

I am happy with my actions.  Others did the same.  BIM have made it quite clear in their list that they had no intention of helping the police with thier enquiries.

Attempting contact BIM would have (possibly) delayed the dangerous vandalism coming to the polices attention, and they ususally ignore me anyway.

I dont really think anyone needs the permission of bim to report a dangerous and totally non productive violent criminal act posted on their board.  That is just silly.

And remember this.  the post broke the most cardinal of IM guidelines.  Despite mods seeing the post it remained on the board for 24 hours.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> Despite mods seeing the post it remained on the board for 24 hours.



they say it didn't.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

Sunspots said:
			
		

> Just stop and ask yourself _why_ people might have reacted to you in the way they have.
> 
> I think you brought all this entirely on yourself the moment you went straight to the police _instead of contacting BIM first_.
> 
> ...




Why ?  Why indeed.  Probably because I insist on not hiding behind multiple aliases.  Because I always strive for openness and honesty.  Beacuse I always try to explain myself and listen to even the most vulgar of criticism.

I dont apologise for any of that but i do realise that it makes it easy for others to 'target' me.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> they say it didn't.




It is my interpretation of conversations on the list.  I accept I may be mistaken.  At the very least it can be confidently stated that it DID remain on the board for 24 hours.  Looking at the evidence I reamin convined it was seen by bimmers long befor a wiser person did indeed 'hide' the post.


----------



## munkeeunit (Jun 27, 2005)

My last comment on this is that people should go through the press statement with a fine tooth comb, as it is a finely honed legal document. 

There is an exact wording regarding how long the post stayed on the boards which is someway between both interpretations, as with almost everything else currently posted on U75. 

I will not be commentinng further except to request further exact and accurate readings of the press statement.

The press statement should be read in connection with the wording in our guidelines, which again are guidelines, not strict rules with an exacting interpretation as it is being commonly presented, also as clearly stated in the guidelines themselves.

Bristol Indymedia Editorial Policy
http://bristol.indymedia.org/mod/info/display/policy/index.php


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

'Finely honed legal documents' are rarely the preserve of fact and full disclosure..... Are they ?


----------



## munkeeunit (Jun 27, 2005)

Of course they aren't. 

As also clearly stated in the press release there remain legal and technical issues yet to be fully clarified. The press statement is a clarification of that which is currently clear, and an indicator of that which is currently not.

No further statements will be issued until those additional issues are clarified.

That is the nature of how the law always operates.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> Of course they aren't.
> 
> As also clearly stated in the press release there remain legal and technical issues yet to be fully clarified. The press statement is a clarification of that which is currently clear, and an indicator of that which is currently not.
> 
> ...



Indeed, honesty and truth really get in the way dont they.....


----------



## munkeeunit (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> Indeed, honesty and truth really get in the way dont they.....



It is statements such as this which I imagine make you appear very suspicious, in terms of intent to miscontrue and cause malicious damage, in the eyes of others.

There are simply technical and legal issues which are yet to be clarified. That which is not yet clear cannot, by definition, have absolute statements such as truth or honesty, or any other absolute term attached to them. 

There are technical and legal issues which have simply not yet been clarified.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> It is statements such as this which I imagine make you appear very suspicious, in terms of intent to miscontrue and cause malicious damage, in the eyes of others.
> 
> There are simply technical and legal issues which are yet to be clarified. That which is not yet clear cannot, by definition, have absolute statements such as truth or honesty, or any other absolute term attached to them.
> 
> There are technical and legal issues which have simply not yet been clarified.




Indeed.

I am suspicous.  i do not intend malicoius harm.  The eyes of many others are blinkered, mine are not.

I appreciate the legal process very well.  I reamin confused for the need for any at all tho.  Either bim can help the police or it cant surely ?  What concerns me is that they WONT.


----------



## Sunspots (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> Indeed, honesty and truth really get in the way dont they.....



Yep. 

_<walks away from thread AGAIN...    >_


----------



## bristol_citizen (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> Indeed.
> 
> I am suspicous.  i do not intend malicoius harm.  The eyes of many others are blinkered, mine are not.
> 
> I appreciate the legal process very well.  I reamin confused for the need for any at all tho.  Either bim can help the police or it cant surely ?  What concerns me is that they WONT.



This is about something a sociopath such as youself has zero knowledge. Principle.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

bristol_citizen said:
			
		

> This is about something a sociopath such as youself has zero knowledge. Principle.



Can we at least attempt an interesting dialogue?  This issue is interesting and raises many valid points about the evoloution and status of open publishing when it comes into contact with organisiations unfamiliar with it's priniciples.

You sir are a fool as your predictably obsessive and vulgar posts have shown repeatedly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> Can we at least attempt an interesting dialogue?  This issue is interesting and raises many valid points about the evoloution and status of open publishing when it comes into contact with organisiations unfamiliar with it's priniciples.
> 
> You sir are a fool as your predictably obsessive and vulgar posts have shown repeatedly.


how do you square the second paragraph of your post with the first? do you think you're going to get an interesting dialogue through calling bristol citizen an obsessive and vulgar fool?


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

Sunspots said:
			
		

> Yep.
> 
> _<walks away from thread AGAIN...    >_



I dont think that IPRN has exactly shown himself to be anything but a rather enthusiastic keyboard bully.  His logic and reasoning in the cited post really cause me no concern.

My postings on this subjest have been honest and truthfull at all times in the face of stupid, childish and nasty attacks.  I suggest the rantings of IPRN best be placed in their proper context befor conclusions be drawn.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> I dont think that IPRN has exactly shown himself to be anything but a rather enthusiastic keyboard bully.  His logic and reasoning in the cited post really cause me no concern.
> 
> My postings on this subjest have been honest and truthfull at all times in the face of stupid, childish and nasty attacks.  I suggest the rantings of IPRN best be placed in their proper context befor conclusions be drawn.


so - you're better than the other lot cos you've been adult in the face of their childish attacks?

and in yr previous post you call bristol citizen a vulgar and obsessive fool?

you  may wish to reconsider your stance.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> how do you square the second paragraph of your post with the first? do you think you're going to get an interesting dialogue through calling bristol citizen an obsessive and vulgar fool?



Good point.  Sorry.

I was referring to his post of course that is just daft and insulting.  Responding in kind may indeed not be helpfull or constructive.

I hope BC can post something more likely to foster debate, not retailiation form me.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> so - you're better than the other lot cos you've been adult in the face of their childish attacks?
> 
> and in yr previous post you call bristol citizen a vulgar and obsessive fool?
> 
> you  may wish to reconsider your stance.



I think you will find that me calling BC vulgar really is kiddy play compared to what IPRN feels 'big' dishing out.  Hence my observation.  But point taken.


----------



## Sorry. (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> I dont think that IPRN has exactly shown himself to be anything but a rather enthusiastic keyboard bully.  His logic and reasoning in the cited post really cause me no concern.
> 
> My postings on this subjest have been honest and truthfull at all times in the face of stupid, childish and nasty attacks.  I suggest the rantings of IPRN best be placed in their proper context befor conclusions be drawn.



A post that you've yet to bother to deal with the content of, despite it being convincing proof that you've lied.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

Sorry. said:
			
		

> A post that you've yet to bother to deal with the content of, despite it being convincing proof that you've lied.


No, you have chosen to ignore what I have repeatedly said.  Clearly you are little bothered by what I say and are intent on 'shouting' me down at all costs and just shouting liar.  Truth is irrelevant to you.  You just dont like me and appear moe interested in harrasment than discussion.

edit.

I know I have been truthfull.  If you are convinced I have lied, fine, if others are fine, if others are not, fine.  I see little point in attempting to convince you.


----------



## Sunspots (Jun 27, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> how do you square the second paragraph of your post with the first? do you think you're going to get an interesting dialogue through calling bristol citizen an obsessive and vulgar fool?



Quite.  

Zaskar's attempt at some kind of moral high-ground and principal is utterly laughable when you take some of his previous posts into account. 




			
				Zaskar said:
			
		

> My postings on this subjest have been honest and truthfull at all times in the face of stupid, childish and nasty attacks.  I suggest the rantings of IPRN best be placed in their proper context befor conclusions be drawn.



Nothing remotely as abusive as your buddy BadNewsWade on the same thread...


----------



## Sorry. (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> No, you have chosen to ignore what I have repeatedly said.  Clearly you are little bothered by what I say and are intent on 'shouting' me down at all costs and just shouting liar.  Truth is irrelevant to you.  You just dont like me and appear moe interested in harrasment than discussion.
> 
> edit.
> 
> I know I have been truthfull.  If you are convinced I have lied, fine, if others are fine, if others are not, fine.  I see little point in attempting to convince you.



It's not a matter of me being convinced or not Zaskar, the FACT that you have lied is on that thread in black and white for all to see. To state otherwise just marks you out as some sort of bizarre fantasist.


----------



## bristol_citizen (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> You sir are a fool as your predictably obsessive and vulgar posts have shown repeatedly.


Am I on the Noel Coward thread by mistake?


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

I have not lied.

If you think I have, fair enough.

I am not responsible for post by other people (obvoiusly ! )

You boys really are starting to go round in circles.

Like the noel coward quip.

Instead of all sqwaking on about what a fibber i am and how nasty and horrid i am, with nary a word of caution for some of those others would anyone actually be interested in debating anything interesting ?

I really dont wnat to carry on parrying insults or giving any back.  It's just nasty and hurtfull.  I dont mind admitting I am hurt and upset by some of the thoughtless jibes at me.  

You that persist in this attack are adding nothing to this talk board or to the discussion at hand.  You are causing me distress.  If that is youre aim, you have suceeded.  Now please stop.


----------



## bristol_citizen (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> You are causing me distress.



And what do you think the member of BIMC under threat of being charged with obstructing the course of justice is feeling?
Why should we give a toss about you. You don't give a toss about anyone. Why don't you leave us alone?


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

bristol_citizen said:
			
		

> And what do you think the member of BIMC under threat of being charged with obstructing the course of justice is feeling?
> Why should we give a toss about you. You don't give a toss about anyone. Why don't you leave us alone?



Umm, well if they have the IPs of the crims, then clearly they should be handed over.  I am not stopping them, I didnt drop the rocks, I didnt leave the post up, I wasnt the only one who reported it.  Are you there yet....

In allowing the post up in the first place no offence was commited.  Clearly if they had the IP then quickly wiped it once the police contacted them they may have committed an offence.  If the IP was wiped automatically as they would have us all believe then no offence has been committed.

This and similar events that have often occured throughout the imc movement raise interesting questions about criminal responsibility and about when information should be shared and under what circumstances it can be with held.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2005)

Did the move to expel zaskar from the NUJ happen?


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Did the move to expel zaskar from the NUJ happen?



No.  And it wont will it......

What is clear to me from this unfortunate incident is that BIM need to talk to the police about what they provide and how it is used by people.

Just becuase the police reasnobly ask for information regarding a seroius crime (with no defense or clear rationale) it really is quite ridiculous for BIM to start sqwaking on about 'freedom of the press' and start insisting they are fighting some principles action by refusing to assist the police to catch these dangerous people.

It really is a bit more complicated than that isnt it.

Think it through.

BIM is a very intersting resource but imho the people who posted news of thier dangerous crime abused the site.  Clearly many feel that I acted rashley in alerting the police to their (the crims) dangerous actions.  

What followed is a result of the decisions made by many parties.

I for one will continue to report crimes such as this, dangerous actions with no clear gain for any activist cause, an action that could have killed someone FFS !  This includes postings of violent and pointless crime, defending people from muggers in the street, watching out for my neighbours, and helping old ladies across the road.  Call me old fashioned but I think if we all took more care of eachother instead of thinking selfishly our communities and streets would be safer.  You may also think me not 'a la mode' in my belief that the police are not our enemies.

My position is that if BIM have the IP then they should give it to the police.  If they dont then the matter is ended.

I understnd no one was actually hurt but i bet the train driver has been very shaken up by this shocking incident.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2005)

I think it might actually. In fact, i'm _sure_ it will. (Why you carry a NUJ card i don't know).

Still no one is buying your attempts to cover up for what you did. I think your motivation has ben adequately and clearly established, Notice how no one is agreeing with you other than your mates.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2005)

zaskar, did you make reports to the police regarding posts on indymedia whilst you were, so to speak, 'on the inside'?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2005)

...and have you ever reported anyone that you've filmed? Would you?


----------



## bristol_citizen (Jun 27, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> I think it might actually. In fact, i'm _sure_ it will. (Why you carry a NUJ card i don't know).
> 
> Still no one is buying your attempts to cover up for what you did. I think your motivation has ben adequately and clearly established, Notice how no one is agreeing with you other than your mates.



NUJ code of conduct is http://www.nuj.org.uk/inner.php?docid=59 .
I think he might have problems under section 2, 3 and especially 7.
"My position is that if BIM have the IP then they should give it to the police."
So an NUJ member proposes that journalists  hand over information about anonymous sources?
You couldn't make it up...


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> zaskar, did you make reports to the police regarding posts on indymedia whilst you were, so to speak, 'on the inside'?


 No, I assume that is a flippant question.  The last brush I had with the police befor this incident was for speeding on my scoot, the time befor that was a threat of arrest if i didnt stop filming.

edit.

However if circumstances are repeated, ie a vilent and dangerous crime is posted in a public forum then I would do the same again.

It is ridiculous to place this in the context of 'grassing' activists as many of you have.  These people could have killed someone, they discredited BIM with their post and by implication put all users of hte site under suspicion of commiting this dangerous criminal act.

I really do weary of the same insutls and stupid accusations beijng repeated over and over by the same people.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

bristol_citizen said:
			
		

> NUJ code of conduct is http://www.nuj.org.uk/inner.php?docid=59 .
> I think he might have problems under section 2, 3 and especially 7.
> "My position is that if BIM have the IP then they should give it to the police."
> So an NUJ member proposes that journalists  hand over information about anonymous sources?
> You couldn't make it up...



Your dogma is as admirable as it is mis placed.  I carry a press card as it helps me to cope with unwanted police attention when I am filming stuff.  

Do keep us informed of your progress.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2005)

I think you'll be informed, don't worry.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> No, I assume that is a flippant question.  The last brush I had with the police befor this incident was for speeding on my scoot, the time befor that was a threat of arrest if i didnt stop filming.



no, it wasn't a flippant question. the post you reported was - in my opinion - by no means the most encouraging or reflective of 'violence' that's ever been on indymedia. why did you not report earlier posts reporting on/'inciting' violent behaviour? what's changed? 

and i also note that you haven't really said yes or no. 'brush with the law' implies the police coming to you, not the other way around.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> I think you'll be informed, don't worry.


You really are quite confused about the code arent you ?  Have you ever actually read a newspaper?  

Good luck.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> no, it wasn't a flippant question. the post you reported was - in my opinion - by no means the most encouraging or reflective of 'violence' that's ever been on indymedia. why did you not report earlier posts reporting on/'inciting' violent behaviour? what's changed?
> 
> and i also note that you haven't really said yes or no. 'brush with the law' implies the police coming to you, not the other way around.


 He also claimed to have been talking to them about a stabbing 'some time' before (after trying to pretend that it was about the ones in Easton week before last) - it gets difficult keeping track doesn't it?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> You really are quite confused about the code arent you ?  Have you ever actually read a newspaper?
> 
> Good luck.


 Of course not. What an odd question. What an odd comment - you don't think that you'd be informed by the union if proceedings to expel you were put in place? And i think they will.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> no, it wasn't a flippant question. the post you reported was - in my opinion - by no means the most encouraging or reflective of 'violence' that's ever been on indymedia. why did you not report earlier posts reporting on/'inciting' violent behaviour? what's changed?
> 
> and i also note that you haven't really said yes or no. 'brush with the law' implies the police coming to you, not the other way around.




Jeepers that is paranoid.  I am and continue to be under the gaze of the police for my film work.  I have been threatened by the police on numerous occasions when filming.  That is quite clearly what I mean.  Jesus......  

This is just becoming comedic.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Of course not. What an odd question. What an odd comment - you don't think that you'd be informed by the union if proceedings to expel you were put in place? And i think they will.


No, actually I would be, all the way.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> Jeepers that is paranoid.  I am and continue to be under the gaze of the police for my film work.  I have been threatened by the police on numerous occasions when filming.  That is quite clearly what I mean.  Jesus......
> 
> This is just becoming comedic.


 You skipped my question;

...and have you ever reported anyone that you've filmed? Would you?

bearing in mind your brutal honesty and all that...can we have an answer?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> No, actually I would be, all the way.


 So why your ridiculous repsonse to me saying that? Don't bother.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> You skipped my question;
> 
> ...and have you ever reported anyone that you've filmed? Would you?
> 
> bearing in mind your brutal honesty and all that...can we have an answer?



NO.  I really think you are a bit mad, either that or this just meets some need for you that i cant divine.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> Jeepers that is paranoid.



make your mind up - is it acceptable to throw around insults or not?

it's not paranoid, it's entirely reasonable to note your refusall to answer a simple question with a simple yes or no.

especially given your somewhat supercilious comment in regard of the bim press statement:




			
				Zaskar said:
			
		

> 'Finely honed legal documents' are rarely the preserve of fact and full disclosure..... Are they ?


 see here

please stop being evasive.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> NO.  I really think you are a bit mad, either that or this just meets some need for you that i cant divine.


Ah, see you have. Does anyone believe you? How can you argue that you wouldn't after your posts here? How can anyone trust you?

edit hew!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> NO.  I really think you are a bit mad, either that or this just meets some need for you that i cant divine.



again with the insults.

have you ever been approached by the police in regards of 'helping get rid of the bad apples in the activist basket'? you know, the fringe nutters who let the side down?

have you ever been approached by special branch?

if so - to either question - what did you say/do in response?

have you ever handed over, shown or in any other way shared your 'activist' footage with the police, or other agencies?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2005)

..and *would* you...bearing in mind your honesty....


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> again with the insults.
> 
> have you ever been approached by the police in regards of 'helping get rid of the bad apples in the activist basket'? you know, the fringe nutters who let the side down?
> 
> ...



My lord what on earth is all this.

No. No on all counts.  NO NO No.....  Thats no absloutly not.

This is a gag right.....

But for the record if i ever filmed a serouis crime, like someone getting raped, mugged and stuff, yes clearly I would help the police.  Wouldnt anyone in these circumstances.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> My lord what on earth is all this.
> 
> No. No on all counts.  NO NO No.....  Thats no absloutly not.
> 
> ...


 But you've already said that it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing - you'll report them for whatever you want to. Doesn't this clash with your 'no' on here? (The answer is yes btw).


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> But you've already said that it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing - you'll report them for whatever you want to. Doesn't this clash with your 'no' on here? (The answer is yes btw).



NO.  Your an idiot arent you.  I weary of this now.

I have no further comments to make.  You motivations are poor.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> NO.  Your an idiot arent you.  I weary of this now.
> 
> I have no further comments to make.  You motivations are poor.


 Oh, it weary now is it? Tough shit. I don't believe you - i think you'd grass anyone just to get a little victory - and given your personality and how many people dislike you for it that make almost everyone in this city a target. You're a liablity son. Everyone knows it now.


----------



## Zaskar (Jun 27, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Oh, it weary now is it? Tough shit. I don't believe you - i think you'd grass anyone just to get a little victory - and given your personality and how many people dislike you for it that make almost everyone in this city a target. You're a liablity son. Everyone knows it now.


Whatever.  I think you are a fool and are actually playing into the very hands you so despise.

Think about it....


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> Whatever.  I think you are a fool and are actually playing into the very hands you so despise.
> 
> Think about it....



lawks!

you've convinced me!

how could anyone possibly question your motivation?


----------



## bristol_citizen (Jun 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> Your dogma is as admirable as it is mis placed.  I carry a press card as it helps me to cope with unwanted police attention when I am filming stuff.
> 
> Do keep us informed of your progress.



Not my dogma mate. It's the NUJ's of which you are a member. Dogma? Funny way to describe your conduct though.


----------



## inks (Jun 28, 2005)

_"Originally Posted by munkeeunit
Hmmm. Guess so.

But if the idiot quartet continue disrupting BIM in the lead up to the G8 summit, then the only conclusion left to reach is that they are intent on disrupting BIM in the lead up to the G8 summit.

That is the mud which will stick.

And these usernames will be distributed to around 10,000 inboxes by myself alone.

If the disruption continues that is" _ 

Everybody hates a fucking spammer.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 28, 2005)

***notice***

please can everyone take note that the mods are threatening bans for anyone using *zaskar*'s real name - see here.

yes, i know he's erratically thrown it in himself, and his phone number etc, but them's the rules (no real names of posters on the boards), and it would be a shame to lose anyone due to carelessness


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## bristol_citizen (Jun 28, 2005)

*The Cops Speak!*

_'A British Transport Police spokesperson said "A warrant was obtained; I don't know the details. ... Website server - I don't know if you could describe it as journalistic material?"_!!! 

_They later clarified that "We obtained a Section 8 [PACE] Warrant after discussing with the Crown Prosecution Service who said we didn't need a Section 9 Schedule 1 [journalistic material] warrant." Section 8 Warrants cover evidence-gathering except where "special procedure" (that is, journalistic) material is involved._

Could be some interesting legal shennanigans up the road then. 'specially considering the CPS's record in Bristol...


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 28, 2005)

where's that from, you get that yourself?


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## bristol_citizen (Jun 28, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> where's that from, you get that yourself?



No it's from here: http://www.londonfreelance.org/fl/0508imc.html


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## IPRN (Jun 28, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> I dont think that IPRN has exactly shown himself to be anything but a rather enthusiastic keyboard bully.  His logic and reasoning in the cited post really cause me no concern.
> 
> My postings on this subjest have been honest and truthfull at all times in the face of stupid, childish and nasty attacks.  I suggest the rantings of IPRN best be placed in their proper context befor conclusions be drawn.



I'm only just reading this thread Zaskar, you really have got a cheek whining about what a hard time you're having, and lying (as per usual) about all the threats and villification you're supposedly being subjected to - How many hours have you had to spend in a police cell this week? You really are one of the most loathsome and unprincipled characters I've ever come across, but most of all you're pathetic.

I've never met you or any of your idiot chums (nor anyone from BIM as far as I know), and my posts on this affair are entirely motivated by my disgust at your touting, your deceitfulness, and the abuse you have subjected other posters to.

Why don't you and Serotonin take Occam's Razor, which you both seem obsessed with, and retire to a warm bath? Your name is already a byword for mean-spirited treachery, and mendacity.


----------



## IPRN (Jun 28, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> No, you have chosen to ignore what I have repeatedly said.  Clearly you are little bothered by what I say and are intent on 'shouting' me down at all costs and just shouting liar.  Truth is irrelevant to you.  You just dont like me and appear moe interested in harrasment than discussion.
> 
> edit.
> 
> I know I have been truthfull.  If you are convinced I have lied, fine, if others are fine, if others are not, fine.  I see little point in attempting to convince you.



The posts are there for everyone to read Zaskar, and you've continued to lie since. Don't you even have the intelligence or the good grace to know when the game is up?


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## IPRN (Jun 28, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> I have not lied.
> 
> If you think I have, fair enough.



It isn't a matter of opinion.


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## IPRN (Jun 28, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> However if circumstances are repeated, ie a vilent and dangerous crime is posted in a public forum then I would do the same again.



Weren't you boasting about having punched Norman Tebbit the other week?


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## IPRN (Jun 28, 2005)

Zaskar, you're not a member of the NUJ.


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## laptop (Jun 28, 2005)

bristol_citizen said:
			
		

> 'specially considering the CPS's record in Bristol...



Oooh... links please?


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 28, 2005)

lol well, they do tend to be rather crap; i saw a right roy bean of a judge tear apart the cps for bringing a shitcan case into his court... it was assault on a copper, and our porcine friend had the bitemarks to prove it...  

unfortunately our cps incopetents were stretching their luck in that regard: the defendant (who had a long string of aoapo on his record, amongst other things, and who was looking at custodial) had been arrested on a bogus pretext (no charges) and only ended up biting the copper because, erm, the coppers had handcuffed him and beaten him up en masse both in the van and in the cells, and biting him was his only defence 

cue unexpectedly short community service order and massive earbashing for prosecuters for acting like muppets (he had a go at the cops as well, calling them 'unreliable witnesses'  )


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## laptop (Jun 28, 2005)

Ah. Right. 

Throw BTP into the mix, and you've got...



Hark, do I hear duelling banjos?


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 28, 2005)

laptop said:
			
		

> Ah. Right.
> 
> Throw BTP into the mix, and you've got...
> 
> ...



lol 

...actually, his previous aoapo was from when he battered a btp cop whilst staggering home a bit pissed (case never got nowhere)


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 29, 2005)

***note***

the threads have now been slightly relabelled & numbered to make it easier to keep track (cheers mrs m!):

bristol indymedia: press statement (pre-server seizure) (1)

bristol indymedia: press release (pre-server seizure) (2)

bristol indymedia: bim server seized today! (3)

bristol indymedia: bim official statement (4)


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 7, 2005)

bristol indymedia is now back up... 



> Hello Bristol Indymedia reader,
> 
> As you can see BIM is back!
> 
> ...


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2005)

***notice***

this is the *last remaining* bristol indymedia thread.

here are my thoughts:

bickering and bitching got the other three binned.

regardless of who's in the right and who's in the wrong, if all you want to do is carry on arguing about shit, then fuck off - fuck off urban and fuck off these threads. 

there are interesting and important issues at stake. why should every discussion on bim end up at the mercy of a few?

so can we please try and keep this one out of the bin?

that means keeping this thread *on-topic*.

want a discussion on ip addresses? start an ip address thread.

think there are touts in bristol? start a 'bristol touts' thread.

think bristol indymedia is run lousily? start a thread entitled 'bristol indymedia is run lousily'.

want a slanging match because someone was mean to you a year ago? well, don't fuck up this thread by moaning on about it here.


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 14, 2005)

now that's all out the way, might i suggest that on this thread we concentrate on a few things in particular:

*court dates/updates

*benefits & fundraisers

*other seizure-related news

if someone's pissing you off, ignore them or use the ignore function.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 14, 2005)

What bristle-krs said in his previous two posts...


WARNING
the mods are close to boil-over point regarding BIM spats, and it's coming close to permanent bannings, not binnings.


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## Isambard (Jul 14, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> *benefits & fundraisers.



I've already said I'll put in a donation, I think Flimsier did too.
What about passing round the hat at tomorrow's pre-Ashton Court drinks? 
Even if it's just a handful of change it might well help.


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## WasGeri (Jul 14, 2005)

Personally I disagree with having collections in pubs, but if people want to give some money on the night, they can give it directly to Munkeeunit.


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## inks (Jul 14, 2005)

I agree with bristol-KRS.

It'd be interesting to have a bit more news about the police seizure and legal issues as this has implications for other websites and the people involved in them.

Three things that come to mind are:

Are Bristol Indymedia planning any sort of legal defence or counter-action against the police?

Has the box that was taken been returned yet?

What's the reason for the site staying down?


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## Isambard (Jul 15, 2005)

Geri said:
			
		

> Personally I disagree with having collections in pubs.



I can see your point Geri. 

I've personally said I'll give a brown bit of paper with the picture of that strange German woman on it to Munkeenut tomorrow night. I'd encorage anyone who wants to have a vibrant diverse media, where views can be heard, to throw in their small change tommorrow.


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## fat hamster (Jul 15, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Munkeenut


LOL!

Now, now - you know how the mods feel about messing around with people's usernames - let's have some order on this thread!    

 



Oh, and wot Isamborough said about the money, too.


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## tobyjug (Jul 15, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> now that's all out the way, might i suggest that on this thread we concentrate on a few things in particular:
> 
> *court dates/updates
> 
> ...





Given the wider implications of the police action I am far  more interested in those aspects than the throwing of rattles out of prams.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 15, 2005)

It's got to the stage of pushing prams off the Clifton Suspension Bridge...(that's me doing the pram pushing btw).


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## tobyjug (Jul 15, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> It's got to the stage of pushing prams off the Clifton Suspension Bridge...(that's me doing the pram pushing btw).




Hopefully with one or more of the bickering children in it.


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## Backatcha Bandit (Jul 15, 2005)

I have a question regarding the 'legal status' of BIMC - as in what sort of organisational model it employs (if any) - is it a 'limited company not for profit', a 'charity', a IPS or what?

Presumably to manage funds it has or may received it must have some sort of 'collective' bank account, together with some sort of 'accountancy practice' in place?

I understand that IMCUK holds an account with Triodos Bank in Bristol, so presumably it is some sort of 'legal' entity entitled 'The Independent Media Centre (IMC) UK' - the 'payee' for donations - although I am unaware of the nature of it's organisational structure.  It just strikes me that if there is a bank account, there must be at least _one_ authourised signatory to be able to release funds accrued.

My curiosity is aroused because this may have some bearing on how any prosecution might proceed - whether against an individual or against BIMC as an 'organisation'.

Also, because certain kinds of 'organisational model' (e.g. Industrial Provident Societies [IPS's]) are able to raise funds in different ways.  This could be useful, as I understand legal costs can quickly mount up.


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## inks (Jul 16, 2005)

I think that BIMC is an "unincorporated association".

This is a useful guide - even though it's a PDF:

http://www.pavs.org.uk/support/documents/Setting_up_a_group_pack.pdf

Initially I thought that your questions about BIMC's status were a bit of a side-issue, BB, but it turns out to be very pertinent:

_"... an unincorporated association has no separate legal existence and remains for most purposes a collection of individuals.  Any property or contracts would have to be held by individuals on behalf of the group, or any legal proceedings taken against the group would, in reality be against the individuals themselves, making them personally liable."_

The implications of this seem to be:

* if someone felt maligned by BIMC (or a similar IMC in the UK) and sued for libel they could sue an individual member, not BIMC as a whole

* the defence that BIMC is a news organisation and is therefore entitled to protect its source fails.  Any criminal prosecution would be against an individual member, not against the organisation.  Presumably the individual could run a similar defence that they are a journalist and therefore entitled to protect their source.  Not a position that I'd like to be in, though.

* individual members of BIMC (or similar IMC in the UK) who accept money on behalf of BIMC may be liable for tax or have it taken into account re. their welfare benefits.

The above points are my interpretation based on reading a few websites so may well be completely wrong!

This is another informative site:

http://www.kessler.co.uk/tpfc/tpfc-chapter1.html

Scroll down to the section "Temporary Charities: unicorporated associations".

_"An "unincorporated association" is an organisation where a number of people join together for a common purpose (not a business purpose), whose relationship is governed by rules arising under a contract made between each member. Clubs and societies will generally have the status of an unincorporated association unless specific steps are taken to set up a company or a trust. An unincorporated association is a "body of persons" and thus treated as a company for tax purposes: see the definition in s.832(1) ICTA 1988."_


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## laptop (Jul 16, 2005)

inks said:
			
		

> * the defence that BIMC is a news organisation and is therefore entitled to protect its source fails.



This is bollocks. 

And your experience of media law is what?

And your motive for discussing matters that may well come up in a court case is what?




			
				inks said:
			
		

> The above points are my interpretation based on reading a few websites so may well be completely wrong!



So... what's this all about then? Is it perhaps the same old shit as got the other threads binned, but dressed up in a salad of legalistic words?


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## inks (Jul 16, 2005)

If you carry on like that with unwarranted character attacks rather than addressing the points I think there's a risk that the mods will kill this thread and ban anyone who mentions BIMC, laptop.

I'd suggest that you chill out or back off if you can't manage that.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 16, 2005)

inks, you are but the merest whisper away from your tagline being changed to 'banned as fuck'


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## inks (Jul 16, 2005)

Anyway, this is a line from an article that I linked to above:

_"... or any legal proceedings taken against the group would, in reality be against the individuals themselves, making them personally liable..."_

I don't see how an individual could claim to be a news organisation.  Any legal action taken against 'BIMC' would actually be taken against individual members, it seems.

From one BIM press statement:

_"Bristol Indymedia considered that the system was journalistic material covered by special provision under the law."_

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/06/315147.html

That would place the individual being sued needing to prevent a defence that they are a journalist, as I read it.

What's your interpretation?


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## laptop (Jul 16, 2005)

inks said:
			
		

> What's your interpretation?



That incorporation has no effect whatsoever on whether journalistic material is involved. 

But that it is relevant to anyone wanting to dicuss how to inflict maximum damage on individuals involved. 

And your point is?

Adds: and would you like to answer the *questions*?

Or does your reference to "character attack", when I'd not mentioned character, itself provide the answers?


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## inks (Jul 16, 2005)

_"That incorporation has no effect whatsoever on whether journalistic material is involved."_

Probably true - sort of.  The material remains the same.

The difference is the ground that you're basing a defence on.

"I am a journalist and entitled to the legal protection of my sources"

is a different basis for a defence from:

"BIMC [or similar IMC] is a news organisation and therefore entitled to legal protection of its sources"

I think that it would be legally easier to establish who is and who isn't a journalist, probably membership of the NUJ would come into it, for example.

Establishing whether BIMC [or similar IMC] is a news organisation would be more complicated and open to interpretation.  And more precedent making.


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## laptop (Jul 16, 2005)

inks said:
			
		

> "I am a journalist and entitled to the legal protection of my sources"
> 
> is a different basis for a defence from:
> 
> "BIMC [or similar IMC] is a news organisation and therefore entitled to legal protection of its sources"



The law refers to journalistic material. Show me the law that refers to "news organisations".

And explain why you're banging on about incorporation, please.


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## inks (Jul 16, 2005)

_"The law refers to journalistic material. Show me the law that refers to "news organisations"."_

A link to the relevant legislation would be interesting, if you've got anything.  Is there a definition of "journalistic material"?

I am interested (as I suspect many people will be) because I run a news site, like many others who've started their own amateur blogs / boards.  With my last site I twice got threatened with legal action, one I decided to take no action on despite receiving communication from an actual law firm and everything, and the second I deleted the relevant posts (I'm not messing with The Guardian's lawyers - not with their track record!).

Whether posts on BIMC fit the definition of journalistic material would be an interesting legal debate, I think.  One that will happen sooner or later although probably not on this occasion.  When it does happen it may have implications for a lot of UK based interactive websites.

The incorporation (actually unincorporation) thing is relevant because it defines who the current legal action is being taken against.  That's quite important - especially to the person who is currently facing criminal prosecution!


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## inks (Jul 16, 2005)

Ah - is this relevant:

"3.12 Confidential journalistic material includes material acquired or created for the purposes of journalism and held subject to an undertaking to hold it in confidence, as well as communications resulting in information being acquired for the purposes of journalism and held subject to such an undertaking."

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crimpol/crimreduc/regulation/codeofpractice/surveillance/part3.html

Too late in the night for me to unpick that though.


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## laptop (Jul 16, 2005)

inks said:
			
		

> A link to the relevant legislation would be interesting, if you've got anything.  Is there a definition of "journalistic material"?



You were the one setting everyone straight on what the law is - and these questions do rather suggest that you had and have no idea. 

Your following quote says nothing about organisations, does it?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 16, 2005)

I think suing Indymedia for libel is a completely hatstand idea....I only know one person who has sued for libel successfully and he had tens of thousands in his bank account at the time and the libel was widely reported in the national media and the libelled person was also widely heard of.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 16, 2005)

.....and if you sue someone successfully for libel it helps if the person/organisation you are suing actually has some dosh in the first place.


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## on_the_fly (Jul 16, 2005)

yawn

MORE BIM


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 16, 2005)

innit? I'm losing the will to live regarding all this, and I'm getting mightily pissed off that Urban is being used as a platform for the spats surrounding the whole sorry fiasco. There are a number of posters who have registered here for no other purpose.


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## madzone (Jul 16, 2005)

on_the_fly said:
			
		

> yawn
> 
> MORE BIM


Easy tiger 
I got abused to fuck for saying the same thing.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 16, 2005)

Well, madzone, you have also brought it up on 'neutral threads' and are part of the problem too, but at least you post on other threads about other stuff too, and didn't register solely to bang on about BIM.


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## madzone (Jul 16, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> Well, madzone, you have also brought it up on 'neutral threads' and are part of the problem too, but at least you post on other threads about other stuff too, and didn't register solely to bang on about BIM.


I've responded to it being plastered all over the place- not brought it up (pretty much like on the fly has just done). And like you say, I post on plenty of other subjects as well


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## on_the_fly (Jul 16, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Easy tiger
> I got abused to fuck for saying the same thing.



Fine abvuse me but this is well past its sell by date IMO and my opinion is my own and ill stick to it no matter who tried to change it....


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## fat hamster (Jul 16, 2005)

Some of us are still interested in the BIM debate, and want to continue discussing it in a civilised manner here on Urban75.  

All you and madzone and other uninterested people need to do is ignore the few remaining BIM-related threads. 

_Please._


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 27, 2005)

*update*

just noticed this small posting on bim:



> Finally, after a couple of abortive arrangements, the equipment seized by the police in the BIMC raid has been returned.
> 
> A Bristol Indymedia volunteer was informed by the solicitors today that the equipment had been returned to them. It has been collected by a BIMC volunteer and will now be examined by IMC tech people.



http://www.bristol.indymedia.org/newswire.php?story_id=24352

the volunteer who was originally arrested has been in answer bail this month, but still hasn't been charged with anything.

bim is still asking for financial support for legal fees.


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## Isambard (Oct 27, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> the volunteer who was originally arrested has been in answer bail this month, but still hasn't been charged with anything.



How long can s/he be kept on bail without being charged?


----------



## munkeeunit (Oct 27, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> How long can s/he be kept on bail without being charged?



I guess until the Crown Prosecution Service have had a long look at it, which could be months and months and months......

Consider it as being moved to a slightly warmer corner of limbo,

Or a few steps up from the pits of hell, in a quiet waiting room.


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## Isambard (Oct 27, 2005)

What could they be charged with ? Incitement or conspiracy to cause criminal damage or endanger railway traffic I suppose. 
But any evidence would be on the servers that were seized.

How long does the bail term run for? I'm hoping the CPS realise there is no evidence, there was no crime (quite possibly the original "stone dropper" BIM poster might have have been bullshitting) and they will close the file.


----------



## munkeeunit (Oct 27, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> What could they be charged with ? Incitement or conspiracy to cause criminal damage or endanger railway traffic I suppose.
> But any evidence would be on the servers that were seized.
> 
> How long does the bail term run for? I'm hoping the CPS realise there is no evidence, there was no crime (quite possibly the original "stone dropper" BIM poster might have have been bullshitting) and they will close the file.



Sorry, I can't really respond any further. Anything I may say may reveal certain legal thinking. Needless to say the police case is very tenuous, given that they have referred it to CPS.

(cue the frothing trolls claiming whatever they are claiming!).


----------



## Isambard (Oct 27, 2005)

No worries you keeping local knowledge for local people Munkeeunit!    

I just hope that the BIM volunteers come out of it OK and the issue will be closed and that we have learnt from it.


----------



## munkeeunit (Oct 27, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> No worries you keeping local knowledge for local people Munkeeunit!
> 
> I just hope that the BIM volunteers come out of it OK and the issue will be closed and that we have learnt from it.



Thanks very much.


----------



## Zaskar (Oct 27, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> What could they be charged with ? Incitement or conspiracy to cause criminal damage or endanger railway traffic I suppose.
> But any evidence would be on the servers that were seized.
> 
> How long does the bail term run for? I'm hoping the CPS realise there is no evidence, there was no crime (quite possibly the original "stone dropper" BIM poster might have have been bullshitting) and they will close the file.



The crime was very real.  I would be very suprised if anyone was charged as the drives have now been returned.  I find it worrying that the rock droppers remain at large.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 27, 2005)

Zaskar said:
			
		

> The crime was very real.



you're not wrong.


----------

