# IWCA anti drug dealing action Oxford



## Red About Town (Mar 19, 2018)

Saw this on FB. Looks like an excellent initiative by the local branch of the IWCA against drug dealing and anti social behaviour in their community. Hopefully it gets the support and media attention that it deserves to.


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## alan_ (Mar 19, 2018)

You cannot stand in that park forever so what are your long term strategies/goals. Even if you do stand in that park there is another one nearbye. Do you have any plans to refer people to agencies which offer support regarding issues of drug use/mental health etc.Just what are you gonna do?


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## seventh bullet (Mar 20, 2018)

The curtain twitchers, eh.


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## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

alan_ said:


> You cannot stand in that park forever so what are your long term strategies/goals. Even if you do stand in that park there is another one nearbye. Do you have any plans to refer people to agencies which offer support regarding issues of drug use/mental health etc.Just what are you gonna do?


You don't need to stand in it all day - that's the point. It's a park in use. And if there another park nearby? OK, let's go there and every single park until they're in a well off area.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

they do things a mite differently in ireland


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## TruXta (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> they do things a mite differently in ireland


Are they about to shoot eachother?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Are they about to shoot eachother?


if you think they're aiming at each other you should take a trip to specsavers


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## TruXta (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> if you think they're aiming at each other you should take a trip to specsavers


Did I write that they were aiming at each other? Think carefully pixie lad.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Did I write that they were aiming at each other? Think carefully pixie lad.


did i write that you wrote that they were aiming at each other? just think, lad.


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## TruXta (Mar 20, 2018)

Good start to the day when I can out-pedant pickmans


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 20, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> Saw this on FB. Looks like an excellent initiative by the local branch of the IWCA against drug dealing and anti social behaviour in their community. Hopefully it gets the support and media attention that it deserves to.



More important than support and media attention is the adoption of the same approach elsewhere. 

Drug dealing, anti social behaviour, cuts to local services etc are present everywhere. For those professing to offer progressive solutions here is a tried and tested model that could be adopted.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Good start to the day when I can out-pedant pickmans


you can out-pedant anyone on what i believe you term 'the boreds' without breaking a sweat.


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## Wilf (Mar 20, 2018)

alan_ said:


> You cannot stand in that park forever so what are your long term strategies/goals. Even if you do stand in that park there is another one nearbye. Do you have any plans to refer people to agencies which offer support regarding issues of drug use/mental health etc.*Just what are you gonna do*?


 Make a start?  Just what they are doing.


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## Red Sky (Mar 20, 2018)

What sort of drug dealing was going on?


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## mod (Mar 20, 2018)

End prohibition. 

No more drug dealers in the park.


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## mod (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> they do things a mite differently in ireland



They missed a full stop after 'DRUGS'. _Northern_ Irish pricks.


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## editor (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> they do things a mite differently in ireland


But unaccountable, unelected armed vigilantes - possibly with all sorts of grudges and issues and agendas -  are just fine.


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## Red Sky (Mar 20, 2018)

Apologies for FB link but here's the leaflet.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 22, 2018)

editor said:


> But unaccountable, unelected armed vigilantes - possibly with all sorts of grudges and issues and agendas -  are just fine.



In drug saturated areas there is a reliance on support/acquiscence/silence from the wider community by the gangs. This is enforced through violence and threats of violence but also through complex networks within communities. There is often a wider cache of respect for the gangs due to their ostentatious wealth and power. Over time this draws more and more of the youth in the community towards the gangs and the 'lifestyle'. The lifestyle involves a pathology of violence that asserts that the gangs run things. 

The impact on communities living amongst this is significant. I have seen this happen. Members of my own family - no shrinking violets themselves - and many others moved away from their estate in Birmingham once it became contested territory between two gangs fighting for control over dealing there. Whilst they would never say it, they were shocked and maybe scared by the casual nature of the violence and the ferocity of it. A once proud and self sufficient community broke up over the space of three years and the estate now is drug infested and used to dump migrants in. Anyone who could get out got out. Can you blame them? 

You are clearly queasy against the rest of the community doing something about situations like this - before the drug gangs tear ther community to pieces - unless they hold elections and the community has the power of instant recall. Perhaps you'd also like to invite the gangs to these meetings to record who was successfuly elected? 

I'm assuming you accept that the police are unlikely to be able to rectify this state of affairs. I also assume that we agree that the war on drugs isn't addressing the problem. 

So, precisely what is your solution?


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## souljacker (Mar 22, 2018)

I'm guessing the editor is commenting on the NI situation, which involves kneecapping dealers, rather than the IWCA situation which involves hanging around in the affected parks making it harder for the dealers to operate (that's my understanding of what they are up to anyway).


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 22, 2018)

souljacker said:


> I'm guessing the editor is commenting on the NI situation, which involves kneecapping dealers, rather than the IWCA situation which involves hanging around in the affected parks making it harder for the dealers to operate (that's my understanding of what they are up to anyway).



I assumed that as well.


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## editor (Mar 22, 2018)

souljacker said:


> I'm guessing the editor is commenting on the NI situation, which involves kneecapping dealers, rather than the IWCA situation which involves hanging around in the affected parks making it harder for the dealers to operate (that's my understanding of what they are up to anyway).


Indeed. That's why my comment quoted the picture of the two hooded twats waving their guns about. I'd rather have dealers than those people around (not that I want either on my patch, thanks very much).


Smokeandsteam said:


> You are clearly queasy against the rest of the community doing something about situations like this - before the drug gangs tear ther community to pieces - unless they hold elections and the community has the power of instant recall.


You clearly should apologise for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

Oh, and I know exactly what it's like to live on a drug dealing estate with all the unpleasant associated crime and violence.

Yellow police incident boards, gun shootings on Coldharbour Lane, Brixton, Lambeth, London SW9, October 2006


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## cantsin (Mar 22, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In drug saturated areas there is a reliance on support/acquiscence/silence from the wider community by the gangs. This is enforced through violence and threats of violence but also through complex networks within communities. There is often a wider cache of respect for the gangs due to their ostentatious wealth and power. Over time this draws more and more of the youth in the community towards the gangs and the 'lifestyle'. The lifestyle involves a pathology of violence that asserts that the gangs run things.
> 
> The impact on communities living amongst this is significant. I have seen this happen. Members of my own family - no shrinking violets themselves - and many others moved away from their estate in Birmingham once it became contested territory between two gangs fighting for control over dealing there. Whilst they would never say it, they were shocked and maybe scared by the casual nature of the violence and the ferocity of it. A once proud and self sufficient community broke up over the space of three years and the estate now is drug infested and used to dump migrants in. Anyone who could get out got out. Can you blame them?
> 
> ...



_*" There is often a wider cache of respect for the gangs due to their ostentatious wealth and power." *_

no easy answers here, and respect the idea of communities self organising vs dealers...but when it comes to the reality of 'gang life / drug dealers' ,  that Malcolm Gladwell ( or similar ) stat of 80 % of all convicted drug dealers in the US living with their mums can be a useful little reminder of the socio economic realities of dealing / gang life, well outside of the worn out, spectacularised mass media tropes


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## The39thStep (Mar 22, 2018)

alan_ said:


> You cannot stand in that park forever so what are your long term strategies/goals. Even if you do stand in that park there is another one nearbye. Do you have any plans to refer people to agencies which offer support regarding issues of drug use/mental health etc.Just what are you gonna do?


Problem solving at its finest. Whatever you do. Don't. You have been warned.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 22, 2018)

cantsin said:


> _*" There is often a wider cache of respect for the gangs due to their ostentatious wealth and power." *_
> 
> no easy answers here, and respect the idea of communities self organising vs dealers...but when it comes to the reality of 'gang life / drug dealers' ,  that Malcolm Gladwell ( or similar ) stat of 80 % of all convicted drug dealers in the US living with their mums can be a useful little reminder of the socio economic realities of dealing / gang life, well outside of the worn out, spectacularised mass media tropes



I'm not talking about 'mass media tropes', I'm talking about the direct experience of anyone who has lived in these areas. I'm also talking about the nexus that emerges and grows in drug saturated communities and the impact that this has on the confidence and well being of the wider community.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 22, 2018)

editor said:


> Indeed. That's why my comment quoted the picture of the two hooded twats waving their guns about. I'd rather have dealers than those people around (not that I want either on my patch, thanks very much).
> You clearly should apologise for jumping to the wrong conclusion.
> 
> Oh, and I know exactly what it's like to live on a drug dealing estate with all the unpleasant associated crime and violence.
> ...



So translated that means 'I don't have any solutions and instead will post a link to an incident 12 years ago and pretend its a binary choice between 'hooded twats' and drug gangs and if forced to choose I'd be with the gangs'. Lol


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## Nice one (Mar 22, 2018)

alan_ said:


> You cannot stand in that park forever so what are your long term strategies/goals. Even if you do stand in that park there is another one nearbye. Do you have any plans to refer people to agencies which offer support regarding issues of drug use/mental health etc.Just what are you gonna do?



standing in a park getting battered by drifting snowflakes, how apt.


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## cantsin (Mar 22, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I'm not talking about 'mass media tropes', I'm talking about the direct experience of anyone who has lived in these areas. I'm also talking about the nexus that emerges and grows in drug saturated communities and the impact that this has on the confidence and well being of the wider community.



and i was talking about the 'ostentatious wealth and power' you referred to ( very much a 'mass media trope') ,  which a huge majority of drug dealing has nothing much to with, it tends to be about poverty, and an absence of 'power' .


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## editor (Mar 22, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So translated that means 'I don't have any solutions and instead will post a link to an incident 12 years ago and pretend its a binary choice between 'hooded twats' and drug gangs and if forced to choose I'd be with the gangs'. Lol


I do wish you'd stop stuffing words in my mouth. But just to clear things up: do you support gun waving nutcases as a means of getting rid of drug dealers (I assume you never do drugs yourself)?


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## The39thStep (Mar 22, 2018)

Nice one said:


> standing in a park getting battered by drifting snowflakes, how apt.


I dont understand this.Can you explain a bit more?


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## Nice one (Mar 22, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I dont understand this.Can you explain a bit more?



alan = a snowflake, having a pop at iwca from the safety of the internet. The actual snowflakes in the video not having the slightest impact on the people in the park or what they are doing.


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## cantsin (Mar 22, 2018)

it sounded like a reasonable /considered response to IWCA piece from Alan , rather than "having a pop "- and we're all on the internet  here, are you a snowflake as well for "having a pop" at Alan from behind the safety of your keyboard, rather than the man of action we all hope you are ?


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## Nice one (Mar 22, 2018)

cantsin said:


> it sounded like a reasonable /considered response to IWCA piece from Alan , rather than "having a pop "- and we're all on the internet  here, are you a snowflake as well for "having a pop" at Alan from behind the safety of your keyboard, rather than the man of action we all hope you are ?



it is literally a 4 minute video of a bunch of residents voicing their concern about drug dealing in the local park. That's it. As a reasonable/considered response (response to what exactly, what's he responding to; the poor camera shots? the crap footwear in the background?) he bangs on about standing in parks, mistakes those in the video for local social services before demanding what are they gonna do? Do about what?


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## nogojones (Mar 22, 2018)

Are you gonna stand outside the pubs to make it harder to deal booze as well?


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> Are you gonna stand outside the pubs to make it harder to deal booze as well?


It's generally accepted that to get served in pubs you need to go up to the bar. Unless there's table service of course, in which case is it even a pub?


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## nogojones (Mar 22, 2018)

TruXta said:


> It's generally accepted that to get served in pubs you need to go up to the bar. Unless there's table service of course, in which case is it even a pub?


and I don't think you need access to a park to sell drugs


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> and I don't think you need access to a park to sell drugs


True, but after all many a park is popular with drug dealers. Unlike publicans, drug dealers don't need a licence.


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## nogojones (Mar 22, 2018)

TruXta said:


> True, but after all many a park is popular with drug dealers. Unlike publicans, drug dealers don't need a licence.


Maybe we should concentrate or efforts on getting them licenced then?


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> Maybe we should concentrate or efforts on getting them licenced then?


And in the intervening years before that might or might not come to pass?


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## stuff_it (Mar 22, 2018)

alan_ said:


> You cannot stand in that park forever so what are your long term strategies/goals. Even if you do stand in that park there is another one nearbye. Do you have any plans to refer people to agencies which offer support regarding issues of drug use/mental health etc.Just what are you gonna do?


What else are the roadman dem meant to do for cash?


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## nogojones (Mar 22, 2018)

TruXta said:


> And in the intervening years before that might or might not come to pass?


I think campaigning for more sensible drug policy might be more effective than playing on the swings


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## nogojones (Mar 22, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> What else are the roadman dem meant to do for cash?


Take it from the rich


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> I think campaigning for more sensible drug policy might be more effective than playing on the swings


Cuz it's worked so well to date.


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## nogojones (Mar 22, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Cuz it's worked so well to date.


Well more and more countries are adopting or looking into more liberal drug laws, so I'd say it is working somewhat, where as I've not seen much of an evidence base for standing in the park


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> Well more and more countries are adopting or looking into more liberal drug laws, so I'd say it is working somewhat, where as I've not seen much of an evidence base for standing in the park


We're not on about Portugal or the US. In the UK drug laws have gotten harsher if anything over the last 10-15 years, despite a more vocal liberalisation movement.


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## nogojones (Mar 22, 2018)

TruXta said:


> We're not on about Portugal or the US. In the UK drug laws have gotten harsher if anything over the last 10-15 years, despite a more vocal liberalisation movement.


It just strikes of hating the player and not the game


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> It just strikes of hating the player not the game


So what? It's desirable to want to understand the wider factors that drive people into a criminal career, but that doesn't excuse the violence and abuse that follows does it?


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## nogojones (Mar 22, 2018)

TruXta said:


> So what? It's desirable to want to understand the wider factors that drive people into a criminal career, but that doesn't excuse the violence and abuse that follows does it?


Have I excused the violence or abuse in this unregulated industry? Or am I advocating for a more effective way of addressing it. 

Maybe I'm out of touch with street dealing, but I don't think a local park is a prerequisite


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> Have I excused the violence or abuse in this unregulated industry? Or am I advocating for a more effective way of addressing it.
> 
> Maybe I'm out of touch with street dealing, but I don't think a local park is a prerequisite


The park stuff is besides the point. And yes, you do effectively excuse violence and abuse when you say "don't hate the player, hate the game".


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## nogojones (Mar 22, 2018)

TruXta said:


> The park stuff is besides the point. And yes, you do effectively excuse violence and abuse when you say "don't hate the player, hate the game".


But it is the nature of the game here that is the problem that creates the player and associated violence. Standing in the park, or on a corner or outside a bookies or wherever is just pissing in the wind unless you seriously address the cause of this problem - prohibition


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> But it is the nature of the game here that is the problem that creates the player and associated violence. Standing in the park, or on a corner or outside a bookies or wherever is just pissing in the wind unless you seriously address the cause of this problem - prohibition


I'd like to see prohibition end too, but in the meantime what do you suggest should happen in places where the authorities are unable or unwilling to stop the destruction of local communities?


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## nogojones (Mar 22, 2018)

TruXta said:


> I'd like to see prohibition end too, but in the meantime what do you suggest should happen in places where the authorities are unable or unwilling to stop the destruction of local communities?


At best though, this will just move it round the corner or to shotters doing more corner / alleyway deliveries. Are you asking for the authorities to enforce the laws harsher? because thats what it strikes of


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## chilango (Mar 22, 2018)

If it means the park is useable again for everybody else then, yeah, shift 'em round the corner to the alleyways for now.


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> At best though, this will just move it round the corner or to shotters doing more corner / alleyway deliveries. Are you asking for the authorities to enforce the laws harsher? because thats what it strikes of


At best anti-social drug dealing will be driven into areas where authorities have the will and means to bring the violence and chaos to an end. Posh areas preferrably.


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## nogojones (Mar 22, 2018)

TruXta said:


> At best anti-social drug dealing will be driven into areas where authorities have the will and means to bring the violence and chaos to an end. Posh areas preferrably.


So it is about encouraging the authorities to be more repressive?


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> So it is about encouraging the authorities to be more repressive?


Is it about letting drug dealers kill, rape and abuse as they please until blessed prohibition is here? You're seemingly suggesting that fuck all should be done. Is that right?


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## The39thStep (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> Maybe we should concentrate or efforts on getting them licenced then?


and minimum unit pricing and a seat on the local park committee, whilst we're about why dont we license human trafficking as well?


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> and minimum unit pricing and a seat on the local park committee, whilst we're about why dont we license human trafficking as well?


Not quite the same is it? Whether you like drugs yourself or not, to compare it to human trafficking is just daft.


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## The39thStep (Mar 22, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Not quite the same is it? Whether you like drugs yourself or not, to compare it to human trafficking is just daft.


Latin American drug gangs manage to be involved in both


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Latin American drug gangs manage to be involved in both


And? How would a regulated legal drug market be in any way comparable to human trafficking? That's what nogo was on about, not giving drug gangs a licence under the current system of production and supply.


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## Red Sky (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> I think campaigning for more sensible drug policy might be more effective than playing on the swings



It's not either/or is it? Any more than having a community litter pick detracts from campaigning against plastic packaging.


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## nogojones (Mar 22, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Is it about letting drug dealers kill, rape and abuse as they please until blessed prohibition is here? You're seemingly suggesting that fuck all should be done. Is that right?


Rape, murder and abuse are all seperate offences. This action seems to focus on addressing drug dealing. So if the authorities are suitably rattled, what do you think they'll do? Honestly? They'll bust a few shotters, most likely the stupider, younger more vunernable ones who are visible. Kick in the doors of some addicts who are selling  bit to fund their habits... same old same old. 

If the heroes of this action were to maybe look much higher up the foodchain I'd might have some sympathy. But calling on the state to crack down on the most excluded doesn't sit well with me personally


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## TruXta (Mar 22, 2018)

nogojones said:


> Rape, murder and abuse are all seperate offences. This action seems to focus on addressing drug dealing. So if the authorities are suitably rattled, what do you think they'll do? Honestly? They'll bust a few shotters, most likely the stupider, younger more vunernable ones who are visible. Kick in the doors of some addicts who are selling  bit to fund their habits... same old same old.
> 
> If the heroes of this action were to maybe look much higher up the foodchain I'd might have some sympathy. But calling on the state to crack down on the most excluded doesn't sit well with me personally


You can only deal with what's in front of you. Often times the higher ups are people that aren't known to the local community, or live elsewhere. Still waiting for you to suggest something apart from voting Lib Dems or signing online petitions.


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## mod (Mar 22, 2018)

We need to change the law.

Lots of pubs have kids playgrounds in their gardens and its a lovely combination on a Sunday. We do it often. Eat and get a little pissed whilst the kids play.Its kids playing in a playground surrounded by intoxicated adults who are buying drugs (booze) from drug dealers (a Fullers brewery pub for example).

Now,Illegal drugs give local gangs (which is realistically  a group of mates who are normal people but prepared to take risks) a huge chance to make lots of money. Times that by two and three and they'll start feuding  over areas and supply contacts and unpaid debts which can end in violence . The drugs they sell will be cut with all sorts of shit to increase profits because some people (unfortunately) are greedy by nature.  Some people get ill. Some die as a result of impurities.

If pure drugs could be procured legally and used responsibly in designated areas like Pubs, parties, injecting rooms, therapy sessions, coffee shops or at home. Kids playground would be for the kids.

Am i wrong to think this?


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## nogojones (Mar 23, 2018)

TruXta said:


> You can only deal with what's in front of you. Often times the higher ups are people that aren't known to the local community, or live elsewhere. Still waiting for you to suggest something apart from voting Lib Dems or signing online petitions.



So your only answer is to call on the state to be harsher and to accuse anyone who doesn't think standing about in the park is an effective solution a Lib Dem 

By "dealing with only what's in front of you" you fuck over the most excluded and do absolutely nothng to address the real problem.


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## TruXta (Mar 23, 2018)

nogojones said:


> So your only answer is to call on the state to be harsher and to accuse anyone who doesn't think standing about in the park is an effective solution a Lib Dem
> 
> By "dealing with only what's in front of you" you fuck over the most excluded and do absolutely nothng to address the real problem.


No, I support community organisation against anti social drug dealing. While you propose fuck all of any substance.


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## nogojones (Mar 23, 2018)

TruXta said:


> No, I support community organisation against anti social drug dealing. While you propose fuck all of any substance.


Ideas and actons that might have an impact on the problems caused by dealing/drugs in the communiity might include engaging with disaffected local youths, trying to get them involved in activites that ain't anti-social, fighting the closure of youth services and drug services, actions against the local council calling for easy access to substitute medications including drugs of choice (e.g. diamorphine) and safer injecting rooms which will take the problem and associated drug litter out of the parks. These are all activities that I've been involved with personally, but they don't have any hard man glamour so it must be just liberal

Criminalising the youth ain't gonna make the problem go away and a bunch of wannabe vigilantes really ain't the solution


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## Magnus McGinty (Mar 23, 2018)

nogojones said:


> I think campaigning for more sensible drug policy might be more effective than playing on the swings



Maybe they could highlight smack dealing in a park by going to the shopping centre? You daft twat.


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## cantsin (Mar 23, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Is it about letting drug dealers kill, rape and abuse as they please until blessed prohibition is here? You're seemingly suggesting that fuck all should be done. Is that right?



Who’s “ letting “ dealers “ kill, rape + abuse as they please “ ?  Where is this actually happening, apart from bad films and Daily Mail readers nightmares / yr imagination  ?


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## TruXta (Mar 23, 2018)

nogojones said:


> Ideas and actons that might have an impact on the problems caused by dealing/drugs in the communiity might include engaging with disaffected local youths, trying to get them involved in activites that ain't anti-social, fighting the closure of youth services and drug services, actions against the local council calling for easy access to substitute medications including drugs of choice (e.g. diamorphine) and safer injecting rooms which will take the problem and associated drug litter out of the parks. These are all activities that I've been involved with personally, but they don't have any hard man glamour so it must be just liberal
> 
> Criminalising the youth ain't gonna make the problem go away and a bunch of wannabe vigilantes really ain't the solution


Funny how you don't mention ending prohibition there. Fwiw I think all those
are good things, but in the climate of austerity relying on state action is a dead end.



cantsin said:


> Who’s “ letting “ dealers “ kill, rape + abuse as they please “ ?  Where is this actually happening, apart from bad films and Daily Mail readers nightmares / yr imagination  ?


You saying that these things don't happen?


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## TruXta (Mar 23, 2018)

Just as a data point, in the year ending March 2015, one in seven homicide suspects were known drug dealers. Even accounting for poor data quality it sure seems like drug dealers do a lot more killing than other groups of people.

Homicide - Office for National Statistics


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## emanymton (Mar 23, 2018)

TruXta said:


> but in the climate of austerity relying on state action is a dead


Yet the goal (or 1 of them at least) of this particular action seems to be to call on the state to take action ?


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## bimble (Mar 23, 2018)

Interesting. An extra aspect to this is that councils have no obligation in law to maintain parks and a lot of motivation to sell the land to developers. Here where i live (Loughborough Junction) the tiny scrap of a park round the corner by the railway arches has been, to some extent i think, purposefully left to dealers so that in their latest plans the council can say that it is a site for antisocial behaviour and would be no loss to the community were it turned into flats: Parks and playgrounds need to be fought for.


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## Sue (Mar 23, 2018)

nogojones said:


> Ideas and actons that might have an impact on the problems caused by dealing/drugs in the communiity might include engaging with disaffected local youths, trying to get them involved in activites that ain't anti-social, fighting the closure of youth services and drug services, actions against the local council calling for easy access to substitute medications including drugs of choice (e.g. diamorphine) and safer injecting rooms which will take the problem and associated drug litter out of the parks. These are all activities that I've been involved with personally, but they don't have any hard man glamour so it must be just liberal
> 
> Criminalising the youth ain't gonna make the problem go away and a bunch of wannabe vigilantes really ain't the solution



And the IWCA has done pretty much all of those over the years. And continues to organise an athletics club for local kids and has links with local boxing and martial arts clubs.

Some reading might be helpful -- not sure how up to date this is but it should give you an idea about the IWCA fighting cuts to youth services and trying to get extra funding for drug services, as well as flagging that when asked (and they were asked a lot) people living locally stated that class A drug dealing on the estate was their number 1 concern.

That reduced as things improved -- it could be argued due to work by the IWCA on the ground and in the council chamber -- but it seems things have got worse again, no doubt for the same reasons as before. 

IWCA national website


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## Nice one (Mar 23, 2018)

nogojones said:


> Are you gonna stand outside the pubs to make it harder to deal booze as well?



so for you it's a denial of service issue?  And in raising their voices the IWCA have a moral obligation to ensure the safe and secure continuation of local drugs trade. In a park.

I never really thought the 'oh but who will think of the drugs dealers' narrative still had legs.


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## Magnus McGinty (Mar 23, 2018)

Sue said:


> And the IWCA has done pretty much all of those over the years. And continues to organise an athletics club for local kids and has links with local boxing and martial arts clubs.
> 
> Some reading might be helpful -- not sure how up to date this is but it should give you an idea about the IWCA fighting cuts to youth services and trying to get extra funding for drug services, as well as flagging that when asked (and they were asked a lot) people living locally stated that class A drug dealing on the estate was their number 1 concern.
> 
> ...



One of the things they achieved in the campaign a decade or so ago was to wrest control of the local community centre from gangsters and back to the community which led to a community radio station amongst other things. Of course alongside vigilantism the criticism at that time was that they were ‘racist’. 
If it had been a football club they were trying to save from nasty developers I’m sure there’d be a lot more support so I can only assume people don’t like the idea of not being able to have their weekend sniff and communities should just suck it up.


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## TruXta (Mar 23, 2018)

emanymton said:


> Yet the goal (or 1 of them at least) of this particular action seems to be to call on the state to take action ?


At some point that's probably necessary yes, whether that's decriminalisation or legalisation at one end, or increase in funds on another. My point is one can't and shouldn't rely entirely on the state to sort this mess out. And that has both political and economic reasons.


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## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2018)

TruXta said:


> And? How would a regulated legal drug market be in any way comparable to human trafficking? That's what nogo was on about, not giving drug gangs a licence under the current system of production and supply.


Believe it or not none of my three suggestions were serious ones.


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## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2018)

mod said:


> We need to change the law.
> 
> Lots of pubs have kids playgrounds in their gardens and its a lovely combination on a Sunday. We do it often. Eat and get a little pissed whilst the kids play.Its kids playing in a playground surrounded by intoxicated adults who are buying drugs (booze) from drug dealers (a Fullers brewery pub for example).
> 
> ...



No its not wrong to think this but sometimes its worth thinking through what you have first thought before saying anything.


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## cantsin (Mar 23, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Funny how you don't mention ending prohibition there. Fwiw I think all those
> are good things, but in the climate of austerity relying on state action is a dead end.
> 
> 
> You saying that these things don't happen?



Who's letting dealers " rape , kill , abuse... as they please " ?


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> communities should just suck it up.



Yes. 

As we have learnt from this thread some would choose to side with the dealers if it came down to it. Some would hand out 'drug education leaflets' and presumably attempt to educate young scamps away from predatory behaviour. Others would attempt to motivate the community to lobby the state for a more rounded approach to drug taking up to and including legalisation. Others will advise communities to sit tight and wait for the unfairness of capitalist society to melt away whilst emphaising that the dealers are victims too. 

Fucking hell.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 23, 2018)

Nice one said:


> I never really thought the 'oh but who will think of the drugs dealers' narrative still had legs.



I thought it had died out as well - possibly breathing its last in a Polytechnic Sociology department around 1992. I was wrong.


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## TruXta (Mar 23, 2018)

cantsin said:


> Who's letting dealers " rape , kill , abuse... as they please " ?


The police and authorities, and communities in as far as they are powerless. I'm not saying all dealers murder and abuse, but if you don't believe these things are more common in drug land then you need to get your head checked.


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## TruXta (Mar 23, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I thought it had died out as well - possibly breathing its last in a Polytechnic Sociology department around 1992. I was wrong.


You do realise it is possible to be both a victim and a perpetrator? Or is that a bit complicated?


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 23, 2018)

TruXta said:


> You do realise it is possible to be both a victim and a perpetrator? Or is that a bit complicated?



You do realise what a smug middle class twat you sound like don't you? Or is that a bit dismissive?


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## TruXta (Mar 23, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You do realise what a smug middle class twat you sound like don't you? Or is that a bit dismissive?


Yes, let's not try to understand the reasons for people turning to crime. Wouldn't want to make life complicated would we? Cunt.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 23, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Yes, let's not try to understand the reasons for people turning to crime. Wouldn't want to make life complicated would we? Cunt.



'Dealers are victims of the system too'. Pathetic.


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## TruXta (Mar 23, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 'Dealers are victims of the system too'. Pathetic.


Dealers are often victims of abuse themselves.  How fucking hard is that to understand? It doesn't excuse what they do, it's an explanation, you daft fuck.


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## bimble (Mar 23, 2018)

Come on. The people hanging about in the park are probably massively overrepresented in the figures for dead teenagers from turf wars and £5 deals gone wrong etc that we get every year. The people who make the real money aren't.


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## Magnus McGinty (Mar 23, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Dealers are often victims of abuse themselves.  How fucking hard is that to understand? It doesn't excuse what they do, it's an explanation, you daft fuck.



The injustice of people not wanting them dealing in a communal space where kids play.


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## TruXta (Mar 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The injustice of people not wanting them dealing in a communal space where kids play.


You're just making stuff up now. I've already said I support the right of local communities to take action. Seeking explanations for why bad stuff happens is bad now? That's a right wing stance if I ever saw one.


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## Magnus McGinty (Mar 23, 2018)

TruXta said:


> You're just making stuff up now. I've already said I support the right of local communities to take action. Seeking explanations for why bad stuff happens is bad now? That's a right wing stance if I ever saw one.



We don’t know the reasons why they’re dealing. Perhaps it’s likely that they themselves are addicts needing to finance their own habit which means they need more addicts; who then also need a means of support. Which is no solution at all.
The council/police would no doubt act if it was upsetting folk in the wealthier side of town but are happy with it being ‘contained’ in working class areas. They need to think about long term strategies and I think the IWCA favours doctors being able to prescribe dismorphine and more support for drug services etc.


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## Red Sky (Mar 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We don’t know the reasons why they’re dealing. Perhaps it’s likely that they themselves are addicts needing to finance their own habit which means they need more addicts; who then also need a means of support. Which is no solution at all.
> The council/police would no doubt act if it was upsetting folk in the wealthier side of town but are happy with it being ‘contained’ in working class areas. They need to think about long term strategies and I think the IWCA favours doctors being able to prescribe dismorphine and more support for drug services etc.



It would be helpful in this case if Blackbird Leys IWCA had explained what had actually been going on in the park.


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## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2018)

Drug dealing?


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## Red Sky (Mar 23, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Drug dealing?



That can mean a whole range of things.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> That can mean a whole range of things.


yeh from supplying friends to peddling junk to kids


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## Magnus McGinty (Mar 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> It would be helpful in this case if Blackbird Leys IWCA had explained what had actually been going on in the park.



Does the leaflet you linked to not accomplish that?


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## Red Sky (Mar 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Does the leaflet you linked to not accomplish that?



It talks about the dealing 10 years before. I'm suggesting that's not the case now, but surprised no one mentioned in the video. 

"The reason we're here is that heroin dealers have been using the play park" sort of thing.


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## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> That can mean a whole range of things.


Personally I wouldnt want any illegal drugs in a park that it is used by kids and families.


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## Red Sky (Mar 23, 2018)

There's a discussion to be had about how well the state and local authorities co opt these struggles.

Where I live , there's a system of Local Action Teams who are volunteers. They're the first point of contact for residents raising concerns like these. There are local coppers running teams of PCSOs who's job it is to present a 'listening' face and regular meetings with attendance by councillors and council officials. 

They are quite responsive and the two big issues that have come up recently, being mini motos being ridden on the pavement and the death of the estate via mass importation of students have received a lot of scrutiny. So for most angry residents the official channels work.


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## butchersapron (Mar 23, 2018)

nogojones said:


> Ideas and actons that might have an impact on the problems caused by dealing/drugs in the communiity might include engaging with disaffected local youths, trying to get them involved in activites that ain't anti-social, fighting the closure of youth services and drug services, actions against the local council calling for easy access to substitute medications including drugs of choice (e.g. diamorphine) and safer injecting rooms which will take the problem and associated drug litter out of the parks. These are all activities that I've been involved with personally, but they don't have any hard man glamour so it must be just liberal
> 
> Criminalising the youth ain't gonna make the problem go away and a bunch of wannabe vigilantes really ain't the solution


Something based on this sort of understanding?


The isolation by the community of drug dealers who prey on the community

The proper provision of locally based and funded detox centres

The establishment of a social contract with users for the proper disposal of needles etc.

The decriminalisation of cannabis

GPs to be allowed to prescribe heroin in order to administer dosages safely, remove the need for ineffective methadone substitutes and undermine the criminal black market

A review of the 1971 Misuse of Drugs Act
All the things that you see as useful have been and are being done by the IWCA in Oxford. They haven't set up and ran athletics and sport clubs and other initiative soley for love of sport for example.


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## Red Sky (Mar 23, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Personally I wouldnt want any illegal drugs in a park that it is used by kids and families.



Me neither. But there's a difference between teenagers having a joint on the swings and people leaving needles behind .


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## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Me neither. But there's a difference between teenagers having a joint on the swings and people leaving needles behind .


Up for the community and the people who use the park to decide imo


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## butchersapron (Mar 23, 2018)

I remember when the below and the aggressive community policing of it was celebrated as an inspiring example of community resistance - not to mention the panthers:


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## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> There's a discussion to be had about how well the state and local authorities co opt these struggles.
> 
> Where I live , there's a system of Local Action Teams who are volunteers. They're the first point of contact for residents raising concerns like these. There are local coppers running teams of PCSOs who's job it is to present a 'listening' face and regular meetings with attendance by councillors and council officials.
> 
> They are quite responsive and the two big issues that have come up recently, being mini motos being ridden on the pavement and the death of the estate via mass importation of students have received a lot of scrutiny. So for most angry residents the official channels work.



This style of community policing/problem solving , usually with the local authority and health services involved is pretty much used across the UK. I agree _it can be _quite responsive.However even when there was some cash around public services you still had competing priorities within the agencies, gaps within provision,and the invetable time lag in getting agencies to either shift funding or deliver the solution. They also tend to be agency led rather than community led.
Very often targets across the borough can be met without really tackling the areas or pockets of high crime and asb.


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## Red Sky (Mar 23, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> This style of community policing/problem solving , usually with the local authority and health services involved is pretty much used across the UK. I agree _it can be _quite responsive.However even when there was some cash around public services you still had competing priorities within the agencies, gaps within provision,and the invetable time lag in getting agencies to either shift funding or deliver the solution. They also tend to be agency led rather than community led.
> Very often targets across the borough can be met without really tackling the areas or pockets of high crime and asb.



Has it changed much since the IWCA started? 

PCSOs have been brought in for that part of the community that wants to see "bobbies on the beat" for example.


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## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Has it changed much since the IWCA started?
> 
> PCSOs have been brought in for that part of the community that wants to see "bobbies on the beat" for example.


Not sure if you mean has the IWCA had an impact on local policing or has local policing changed  in the lifetime of the IWCA.Community policing and crime and disorder partnerships have been going on for nearly two decades. The shift to local partnership problem solving begain about 15 years ago , followed by a focus on measuring community satisfaction etc. Whether there was the will to tackle some of these issues in some of these areas is debatable in the first place . Working class areas suffer disporoprtionately from higher crime and asb rates. With the cuts to the public services its always going to be those areas that lose out the most.


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## chilango (Mar 23, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Personally I wouldnt want any illegal drugs in a park that it is used by kids and families.





Red Sky said:


> Me neither. But there's a difference between teenagers having a joint on the swings and people leaving needles behind .



To be honest I don't even like seeing people having a few cans or whatever in the park near the playground bit never mind illegal drugs.


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## Red Sky (Mar 23, 2018)

chilango said:


> To be honest I don't even like seeing people having a few cans or whatever in the park near the playground bit never mind illegal drugs.



Certainly when it came up here it was definitely a teenager thing.

They need somewhere else to hang out and get stoned of an evening .


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## chilango (Mar 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Certainly when it came up here it was definitely a teenager thing.
> 
> They need somewhere else to hang out and get stoned of an evening .



Yeah, maybe.

Not the kids' playground though. Hence the IWCA doing a bunch of other stuff alongside this I guess?


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## Red Sky (Mar 23, 2018)

chilango said:


> Yeah, maybe.
> 
> Not the kids' playground though. Hence the IWCA doing a bunch of other stuff alongside this I guess?



That's been our proposed solution here. Some kind of bus shelter. Ostensibly for another purpose.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> That's been our proposed solution here. Some kind of bus shelter. Ostensibly for another purpose.


a drug AbusE shelter?


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## Red Sky (Mar 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> a drug AbusE shelter?



The thinking is that if we call it "The Cool Kidz Hangout Space" they won't go near it. If they think they've cheekily misappropriated it then they might stop leaving cider bottles and little baggies by the swings.


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## Fozzie Bear (Mar 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We don’t know the reasons why they’re dealing. Perhaps it’s likely that they themselves are addicts needing to finance their own habit which means they need more addicts; who then also need a means of support. Which is no solution at all.
> The council/police would no doubt act if it was upsetting folk in the wealthier side of town but are happy with it being ‘contained’ in working class areas. They need to think about long term strategies and I think the IWCA favours doctors being able to prescribe dismorphine and more support for drug services etc.



Also worth pointing out that this action by the IWCA puts pressure on agencies etc who are supposed to be implementing longer term and strategic solutions to these issues.

It can shame them into action and work against their seemingly innate tendency to ignore this stuff in w/c areas.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Also worth pointing out that this action by the IWCA puts pressure on agencies etc who are supposed to be implementing longer term and strategic solutions to these issues.
> 
> It can shame them into action and work against their seemingly innate tendency to ignore this stuff in w/c areas.


they have no shame


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## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2018)

We trialled five of these about ten years ago in our borough. Good idea in theory but in practice  but they need contact with detached youth workers who work weekends and evenings or local community police visits  or ownership by a school. Probably best to get the kids to agree to some form of behaviour . Otherwise you face the possibility of litter, broken bottles, underage drinking , drugs and bullying . We had a nasty sexual assault in one.


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## cantsin (Mar 23, 2018)

ar


The39thStep said:


> Personally I wouldnt want any illegal drugs in a park that it is used by kids and families.



 including weed ?


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## Red Sky (Mar 23, 2018)

cantsin said:


> ar
> 
> 
> including weed ?



Not during the daytime.


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## chilango (Mar 23, 2018)

cantsin said:


> ar
> 
> 
> including weed ?



Including weed.

And alcohol. And tobacco.


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## chilango (Mar 23, 2018)

...and, yes, we need more free, open, public spaces of all kinds. But - for me at least - the need for a space for kids to play trumps the need for a space for people to drink/smoke/take drugs.


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## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2018)

cantsin said:


> ar
> 
> 
> including weed ?


Yup. Not even weed. And I dont like it in pub beer gardens either.


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## TruXta (Mar 23, 2018)

I smoke weed but having people smoke around kids just isn't on. Drinking in moderation is OK.


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## Wilf (Mar 23, 2018)

nogojones said:


> Ideas and actons that might have an impact on the problems caused by dealing/drugs in the communiity might include engaging with disaffected local youths, trying to get them involved in activites that ain't anti-social, fighting the closure of youth services and drug services, actions against the local council calling for easy access to substitute medications including drugs of choice (e.g. diamorphine) and safer injecting rooms which will take the problem and associated drug litter out of the parks. These are all activities that I've been involved with personally, but they don't have any hard man glamour so it must be just liberal


 All of those things are good and, as mentioned by Sue, things the IWCA have done. But this isn't just about demand for drugs, it's about supply. It would be absurd to have a push on sorting out youth/drugs services whilst giving dealers a free pass in the very community that is affected.



> Criminalising the youth ain't gonna make the problem go away and a bunch of wannabe vigilantes really ain't the solution


 I've only read stuff about IWCA strategies and spoke to a few people a while back. So, no expert, but I don't get a sense of this being a macho, imposed strategy by the IWCA. Instead, a real sense of organising around genuine community concerns. Do you really think communities don't have a right to organise around things that affect them?

The other thing is, this isn't neatly about the community against a completely separate group of people, users and dealers.  A number of local anti-drugs groups I've seen have contained people whose kids and relatives have been directly affected.


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## TopCat (Apr 6, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Yup. Not even weed. And I dont like it in pub beer gardens either.


Miserable fucker.


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## nogojones (Apr 6, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Yup. Not even weed. And I dont like it in pub beer gardens either.


I find its the drinkers that spoil pub gardens


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## countingtozero (Jun 14, 2022)

This documentary about Concerned Parents Against Drugs (CPAD) in Dublin during the 1980s should be of interest to those on this thread:


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