# My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding



## cliche guevara (Feb 13, 2010)

Thursday 18th Feb at 9pm on CHannel Four.

The trailer looked fantastic, I'm sure this program will make for an epic thread 

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/my-big-fat-gypsy-wedding


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## N_igma (Feb 13, 2010)

It sure is a big event for Irish travellers. As is Holy Communion, the amount of fan fare and money they spend on it is un-fucking-believable. Looking forward to this.


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## Griff (Feb 14, 2010)

Just seen the trailer for this, gotta be worth a watch.


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## Bassism (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm looking forward to watching this. I'm always up for an insight into different lifestyles. Besides the dresses I sure do like a bit of pikey rough x


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## Santino (Feb 16, 2010)

The trailers look a bit let's-laugh-at-the-proles.


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## cliche guevara (Feb 18, 2010)

Bumped for Bob2oo9's benefit.


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## cliche guevara (Feb 18, 2010)

Santino said:


> The trailers look a bit let's-laugh-at-the-proles.



The proles that can afford to spend more on their weddings than most urban posters?

[/wild speculation]


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## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2010)

Santino said:


> The trailers look a bit let's-laugh-at-the-proles.



Not technically proletariat I'd say.

Hmm, where would one place travelers on the scale....


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## lizzieloo (Feb 18, 2010)

Sparkle-o-rama


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## cliche guevara (Feb 18, 2010)

27 stone dress? Is she having a laugh?


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## Chairman Meow (Feb 18, 2010)

cliche guevara said:


> 27 stone dress? Is she having a laugh?



Nope, I saw the pictures. She could hardly stand up.


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## cliche guevara (Feb 18, 2010)

So serious discussion point - Was Sammy Jo's Mum right that turning travelers down for wedding venues simply because they're travelers is discriminatory to a law breaking degree?


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## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2010)

Denial of goods and services based on reasons of ethnicity? 

pretty sure.


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## Ground Elder (Feb 18, 2010)

cliche guevara said:


> So serious discussion point - Was Sammy Jo's Mum right that turning travelers down for wedding venues simply because they're travelers is discriminatory to a law breaking degree?


Yes


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## Thora (Feb 18, 2010)

cliche guevara said:


> So serious discussion point - Was Sammy Jo's Mum right that turning travelers down for wedding venues simply because they're travelers is discriminatory to a law breaking degree?



I believe Roma, and maybe Irish travellers too, are recognised as a race so covered by racial discrimination laws.


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## og ogilby (Feb 18, 2010)

cliche guevara said:


> 27 stone dress? Is she having a laugh?


Good excuse why the groom couldn't carry her over the threshold.


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## Thora (Feb 18, 2010)

Love the combination of such strict, old fashioned morality and the glamour model dresses.


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## stethoscope (Feb 18, 2010)

Yes, wedding venues turning down or cancelling at last minute because they are travelers is just as discriminatory as it would it be if say other minorities.


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## Bonfirelight (Feb 18, 2010)

On a similar RASCIST note  - if those lads saying they'd never marry a country girl, were a group of english lads saying quick as a flash they'd never marry, say, a black girl because 'they've got a culture to uphold' would it be as acceptable?


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## xes (Feb 18, 2010)

stephj said:


> Yes, wedding venues turning down or cancelling at last minute because they are travelers is just as discriminatory as it would it be if say other minorities.



When there's a Traveller wedding or funeral round these parts, all the pubs phone round and close up for the afternoon. 

Last year on NYE, the landlord shat it, so did the bar staff (the pub was already full of seemingly happy people. But he was sure they were going to steal his gold or something.) So fucking muggins here had to get on the mic and tell everyone that the pub was closing for a private function. (I was the DJ) I appologised to some of the guys outside, and told them why, in no uncertain terms why the landlord had run upstairs, bolted himself in a safe room and got me to do his dirty work (like they didn't know already) One of the most uncomfortable things I've ever had to do. Luckily for me, they weren't as said landlord thought, and just joked about it, told me not to worry and thanked me for being honest. I still felt a cunt.


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## Thora (Feb 18, 2010)

English lads don't live in a closed culture though do they?


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## stethoscope (Feb 18, 2010)

xes said:


> When there's a Traveller wedding or funeral round these parts, all the pubs phone round and close up for the afternoon.



Yeah - that really struck me that some people actually 'tipped off' wedding venues that it was going to be a traveller wedding. FFS!


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## DJ Squelch (Feb 18, 2010)

blimey, put some poles under that 20ft train and you could double it up as the reception marquee.


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## Bonfirelight (Feb 18, 2010)

Thora said:


> English lads don't live in a closed culture though do they?



no, and obviously there are differences to be taken into account.
I suppose i just find it odd that prejudice seems more acceptable when its directed from the minority towards the majority than visa versa.


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## Thora (Feb 18, 2010)

Love that Sammy-Jo took out her chewing gum at the altar


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## Thora (Feb 18, 2010)

Bonfirelight said:


> no, and obviously there are differences to be taken into account.
> I suppose i just find it odd that prejudice seems more acceptable when its directed from the minority towards the majority than visa versa.



I'm not sure it's prejudice so much as a cultural practice.  They marry within their community - they aren't expressing prejudice against non-travellers.


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## Dillinger4 (Feb 18, 2010)

Thora said:


> Love that Sammy-Jo took out her chewing gum at the altar



And she was having pie & chips in her wedding dress at the reception.


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## og ogilby (Feb 18, 2010)

Bonfirelight said:


> I suppose i just find it odd that prejudice seems more acceptable when its directed from the minority towards the majority than visa versa.


I think most lads in the majority wouldn't dare shag a bare knuckle fighters daughter if it was so much of a no no.


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## cliche guevara (Feb 18, 2010)

Bonfirelight said:


> no, and obviously there are differences to be taken into account.
> I suppose i just find it odd that prejudice seems more acceptable when its directed from the minority towards the majority than visa versa.



Isn't there an obvious reason for that, in that the majority aren't affected to the same extent when the minority prejudice them?


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## Bonfirelight (Feb 18, 2010)

Thora said:


> I'm not sure it's prejudice so much as a cultural practice.  They marry within their community - they aren't expressing prejudice against non-travellers.



True, though it's a fine line if you look from the other angle.



cliche guevara said:


> Isn't there an obvious reason for that, in that the majority aren't affected to the same extent when the minority prejudice them?



It obviously make is less (or non-existant) oppressive, but prejudice is prejudice.


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## Thora (Feb 18, 2010)

Bonfirelight said:


> True, though it's a fine line if you look from the other angle.
> 
> 
> 
> It obviously make is less (or non-existant) oppressive, but prejudice is prejudice.



What's the other angle?


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## Thora (Feb 18, 2010)

Poor Joan really didn't want to get married did she?  Managed to stay at school til 16, got a job, held out til she was 22...


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## cliche guevara (Feb 18, 2010)

Thora said:


> Poor Joan really didn't want to get married did she?  Managed to stay at school til 16, got a job, held out til she was 22...



No, not at all. It put a major downer on the whole program for me, was a really sad ending. A conscious decision by the program makers for sure.


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## Bonfirelight (Feb 18, 2010)

Thora said:


> What's the other angle?



well, 'cultural practice' has often been used as a cover up for prejudice, be it something like banning women from the MCC or any number of the BNPs bullet points.


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## not-bono-ever (Feb 18, 2010)

a nightclub I worked in took on a traveller / showman wedding - the daughter of the bloke who seems to run the UK fairground scne - no one else would take them on - it was a Saturday afternoon bash, when the club is normally closed. we were shtting outselves cos of the tales we had heard.

about 400 guests tuened up, ran amok ( not in a bad way ) , policed themselves & drank the clubs stocks dry.

most profitable gig we ever did and no bother.


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## trabuquera (Feb 18, 2010)

this was a fascinating doc - although of course it skirted (ouch) the real nitty gritty stuff imho. when you've got that much £££ going into a wedding, who's paying - which side of the family and why? is surely one of the most important questions of all. I thought the dressmaker's explanation at the end was a bit of a copout.  and it didn't go into any sort of double-standardness either ... i really do doubt that despite their embarrassed denials those lads were going to "abide by strict traditional rules" all their lives. there were tantalising hints about these communities being so scared of 'outsiders' and of their own folk 'backsliding' or 'drifting into bad ways' .

Brilliant moments though. Some of it you couldn't make up - my favourites were the father of the bride not even knowing where the chapel was, and bare-knuckle man saying very amiably that "loads of my best friends are .. em ..._country people_" (i.e. non travellers.) bwahahahahaha!


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## skyscraper101 (Feb 19, 2010)

I wonder why so many of them are so averse to mixing with outsiders.


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## lizzieloo (Feb 19, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> I wonder why so many of them are so averse to mixing with outsiders.




To keep their traditions alive I believe


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## weepiper (Feb 19, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> I wonder why so many of them are so averse to mixing with outsiders.



years of abuse and mistrust from some of those outsiders leading to tarring with the same brush.


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## rioted (Feb 19, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> I wonder why so many of them are so averse to mixing with outsiders.


A lot of history. A lot of persecution.


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## Louloubelle (Feb 19, 2010)

Apart from the reasons the others said about persecution etc. there is a fear of pollution as country people are seen as being dirty, simply because they do not have the same taboos and customs.

There are complex taboos relating to women's bodies, times of the month, washing the body and clothing, touching, animals that are seen as dirty / polluting (e.g. cats) etc.


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## skyscraper101 (Feb 19, 2010)

Yeah, probably. I think its a shame. I'd be happy to know some traveller folk if they'd want to know me too.


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## lizzieloo (Feb 19, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Yeah, probably. I think its a shame. I'd be happy to know some traveller folk if they'd want to know me too.



You don't _have_ to marry them


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## skyscraper101 (Feb 19, 2010)

I'd be scarred stiff of marrying anyone at the age of 17/18


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## Louloubelle (Feb 19, 2010)

http://www.imninalu.net/marime.htm


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## smokedout (Feb 19, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> Apart from the reasons the others said about persecution etc. there is a fear of pollution as country people are seen as being dirty, simply because they do not have the same taboos and customs.
> 
> There are complex taboos relating to women's bodies, times of the month, washing the body and clothing, touching, animals that are seen as dirty / polluting (e.g. cats) etc.



yeah, cos youre a fucking expert


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## lizzieloo (Feb 19, 2010)

smokedout said:


> yeah, cos youre a fucking expert



Yowzer


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## skyscraper101 (Feb 19, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> http://www.imninalu.net/marime.htm



Spiritual stuff.

Is there a great distinction between Roma and Irish when it comes to all this wuzho and marime stuff? The author talks a lot about Roma but I didn't see any mention of Irish travellers.


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## smokedout (Feb 19, 2010)

lizzieloo said:


> Yowzer



sorry but given Louloubelles opinions on other disadvantaged miniority groups i find it hard to take any of her bigoted shit seriously


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## Louloubelle (Feb 19, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Spiritual stuff.
> 
> Is there a great distinction between Roma and Irish when it comes to all this wuzho and marime stuff? The author talks a lot about Roma but I didn't see any mention of Irish travellers.



I don't know if the words are the same, but the taboos are very similar, all the stuff about washing the upper and lower body clothes separately, hand washing after touching bedsheets, lower parts of the body, cats being polluting (I was told that it's because they lick their own genitals).  Also all the stuff about dirty / polluting things being kept outside the home which has to be clean, so they wouldn't have waste paper bins or kitchen bins in the house.


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## N_igma (Feb 19, 2010)

Erm is there anyone here who actually has regular contact with Irish travellers? 

Doesn't seem like it to me!


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## keithy (Feb 19, 2010)

It was really interesting but now I just want to learn loads and loads.

I couldn't help but laugh at the whole 'no sex before marriage... which will occur 6 months after we meet' thing going on, when the girls were using sex to catch them a man.


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## DotCommunist (Feb 19, 2010)

N_igma said:


> Erm is there anyone here who actually has regular contact with Irish travellers?
> 
> Doesn't seem like it to me!



As an Aldershot resident I have had all the contact I need with Irish travelers.


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## N_igma (Feb 19, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> As an Aldershot resident I have had all the contact I need with Irish travelers.



But have you lived with them?


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## Sweet FA (Feb 19, 2010)

cliche guevara said:


> No, not at all. It put a major downer on the whole program for me, was a really sad ending. A conscious decision by the program makers for sure.


That last wedding was a real contrast to the ones featured before. Apart from the fear the girl clearly felt, the reception was pretty empty. I wonder whether that was because the family'd lived on an estate for 15 odd years and weren't part of the traveller community any more? Really good programme - raised loads of questions that'll probably never be answered though.


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## zenie (Feb 19, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> I don't know if the words are the same, but the taboos are very similar, all the stuff about washing the upper and lower body clothes separately, hand washing after touching bedsheets, lower parts of the body, cats being polluting (I was told that it's because they lick their own genitals). Also all the stuff about dirty / polluting things being kept outside the home which has to be clean, so they wouldn't have waste paper bins or kitchen bins in the house.


 
It's not the same for all of them, there is no hard and fast rules!  I know travellers with cats, and dogs lick their own genitals all the time, yet most travellers seem to have them around. 

The dresses at the annual horse sale, OMG! 

I liked the 20ft train 

Shame Sammy Jo's new husband looked like some kind of boxing loving inbred, maybe that's why she was so scared? Do you reckon it was arranged somehow, did they say where they met?


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## tarannau (Feb 19, 2010)

LLB's link is pretty laughable imo, bearing little resemblence to the travellers I've known.

I can't say I've lived amongst travellers, but I've had plenty of experience really. My parents moved to a place in London with one of the largest settled traveller communities nearby - home to what was once tagged Redskin Village and a focus of many Romany/Irish traveller tales. It still holds the largest fair in London and becomes a huge meeting point for a few weeks. TBH, bar one massive pub brawl, I've rarely had anything but kindnesz from the folks.

Interesting program really, but you felt that it only scratched the surface and the choice to focus on that one slightly atypical couple was a little limiting


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## Stoat Boy (Feb 19, 2010)

Caught the last part but just dont get how they can be defined as a seperate ethnic group.

On what grounds ? 

Roma, yes. Thats obvious. Different language, distinct culture and so on but these 'Gypsys', well I just dont see how they qualify in any way shape or form as some sort of specific ethnic group.

I just saw a load of rather tacky and loud white trash. Not too disimilar to my own background if I am honest but its hardly a cause for distincition or anysort of legal protection.


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## Thora (Feb 19, 2010)

Sammy-Jo was Roma I believe, and the other girls were Irish Travellers.

I think it was a bit of a pity that they didn't look at the distinction between the two groups at all.


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## jusali (Feb 19, 2010)

Fine looking women


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## grit (Feb 19, 2010)

N_igma said:


> Erm is there anyone here who actually has regular contact with Irish travellers?
> 
> Doesn't seem like it to me!



I do, I'm Irish and have had regular dealings with a variety of families from the travelling community.


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## lizzieloo (Feb 19, 2010)

zenie said:


> It's not the same for all of them, there is no hard and fast rules!  I know travellers with cats, and dogs lick their own genitals all the time, yet most travellers seem to have them around.
> 
> The dresses at the annual horse sale, OMG!
> 
> ...



Wasn't that Joan that was scared? Sammy Jo knew her husband well, they'd been brought up on the same site.

Joan said she'd only met her fiance a couple of times before marrying him.


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## lizzieloo (Feb 19, 2010)

Sweet FA said:


> That last wedding was a real contrast to the ones featured before. Apart from the fear the girl clearly felt, the reception was pretty empty. I wonder whether that was because the family'd lived on an estate for 15 odd years and weren't part of the traveller community any more? Really good programme - raised loads of questions that'll probably never be answered though.



Loads of answers here

http://www.itmtrav.com/publications/reports.html


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## zenie (Feb 19, 2010)

lizzieloo said:


> Wasn't that Joan that was scared? Sammy Jo knew her husband well, they'd been brought up on the same site.
> 
> Joan said she'd only met her fiance a couple of times before marrying him.


 
Sorry I'm a bit rubbish remmebering names, you're probably right.  The one that married 'Pa' I meant, and was that really his name?


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## Thora (Feb 19, 2010)

zenie said:


> Sorry I'm a bit rubbish remmebering names, you're probably right.  The one that married 'Pa' I meant, and was that really his name?



Yeah that was Joan - the 22 year old who had managed to finish school and had a job.  I have a feeling her life isn't going to be great.


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## lizzieloo (Feb 19, 2010)

zenie said:


> Sorry I'm a bit rubbish remmebering names, you're probably right.  The one that married 'Pa' I meant, and was that really his name?



Pa = Patrick


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## DotCommunist (Feb 19, 2010)

Padraig


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## lizzieloo (Feb 19, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> Padraig



Nah, his name was Patrick


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## LilMissHissyFit (Feb 19, 2010)

Bonfirelight said:


> On a similar RASCIST note  - if those lads saying they'd never marry a country girl, were a group of english lads saying quick as a flash they'd never marry, say, a black girl because 'they've got a culture to uphold' would it be as acceptable?



Its not so different from asian families being insistent that their child should marry someone of the same religion/social standing... its often for the very same reasons that theres an expectation that children should marry within their own circles

Why do people focus on white V's black when discussing recism?
I dont believe its racist if theres s cultural expectation to form partnerships and families within your own historical 'rules'


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## Ground Elder (Feb 19, 2010)

Stoat Boy;10337970]Caught the last part but just dont get how they can be defined as a seperate ethnic group. On what grounds ? [/QUOTE]Irish Travellers are recognised as an ethnic group in law  [URL="http://webjcli.ncl.ac.uk/1998/issue1/mcleod1.html said:
			
		

> using the Mandla Criteria[/URL] -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bonfirelight (Feb 19, 2010)

LilMissHissyFit said:


> Its not so different from asian families being insistent that their child should marry someone of the same religion/social standing... its often for the very same reasons that theres an expectation that children should marry within their own circles
> 
> Why do people focus on white V's black when discussing recism?
> I dont believe its racist if theres s cultural expectation to form partnerships and families within your own historical 'rules'



Exactly - i think both views are pretty narrow and not very 21st century tbh. Racism is far too strong a term, but it falls pretty squarly into prejudice imo.

white vs black is just an easy way of making examples i guess.

anyway, twas a pretty interesting programme.


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## Thimble Queen (Feb 19, 2010)

i really wanna know how much those dresses cost!!


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## Chairman Meow (Feb 19, 2010)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> i really wanna know how much those dresses cost!!



I remember reading of one that cost the bride's da 15k!


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## weepiper (Feb 19, 2010)

lizzieloo said:


> Nah, his name was Patrick



Padraig is just how Patrick is spelt in Irish Gaelic.


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## lizzieloo (Feb 19, 2010)

weepiper said:


> Padraig is just how Patrick is spelt in Irish Gaelic.




Yeah but his name's Patrick, not Padraig

Just like mine is still Elizabeth not Eilish even in Ireland


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## LilMissHissyFit (Feb 19, 2010)

Bonfirelight said:


> Exactly - i think both views are pretty narrow and not very 21st century tbh. Racism is far too strong a term, but it falls pretty squarly into prejudice imo.
> 
> white vs black is just an easy way of making examples i guess.
> 
> anyway, twas a pretty interesting programme.



But why should people have to conform to some sort of '21st C' way of living..?
THATS precisely why they wish to marry' one of their own' and carry on their culture and traditions- because other people have beliefs and values that they dont share and dont wish to- beliefs which are both positive and negative to outsiders looking in.

Predudice?? Maybe.... but IMO its only prejudice if there was to be some sort of negativity towards people who were 'outsiders'
I believe travellers face far more marginalisation and prejudice than they project. Its therefore entirely understandable that they would rather keep their culture and traditions by marrying within their own community


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## Chairman Meow (Feb 20, 2010)

There is one thing I don't get about Irish travellers, and would be grateful if someone could explain it. I know they have loads of cleaning taboos and rituals, and the inside of their caravans are spotless. So how come their camps are always a filthy mess? Here in Cork there are quite a few travellers sites and every site I have seen has been a shambles. It just doesn't seem to fit in with the cleaning thing.


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## weepiper (Feb 20, 2010)

lizzieloo said:


> Yeah but his name's Patrick, not Padraig
> 
> Just like mine is still Elizabeth not Eilish even in Ireland



that's not the same, because Elizabeth and Eilish do not sound the same. Patrick and Padraig sound identical, they are just different ways of spelling the same thing.

e2a I think you're thinking of Paraig (with an accent on the first a, don't know how to do them) which does sound different


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## Mooncat (Feb 20, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> As an Aldershot resident I have had all the contact I need with Irish travelers.



You must mean the site down in Ash then?  Maybe our paths have crossed


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## DotCommunist (Feb 20, 2010)

sorry, I was making a rather tasteless IRA reference


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## Wookey (Feb 20, 2010)

weepiper said:


> Patrick and Padraig sound identical, they are just different ways of spelling the same thing.



Patrick has a median unvoiced dental plosive, whereas Padraig's is voiced due to it's Gaelicisation.


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## weepiper (Feb 20, 2010)

Wookey said:


> Patrick has a median unvoiced dental plosive, whereas Padraig's is voiced due to it's Gaelicisation.



no.

the way Gaelic orthography works demands that it's a 'd' in that position because it has an 'a' either side of it. It's still pronounced 't'. If it were spelt with a 't' it would be pronounced 'tch'


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## lizzieloo (Feb 20, 2010)

weepiper said:


> that's not the same, because Elizabeth and Eilish do not sound the same. Patrick and Padraig sound identical, they are just different ways of spelling the same thing.
> 
> e2a I think you're thinking of Paraig (with an accent on the first a, don't know how to do them) which does sound different



I know.

But he spells his name Patrick, not Padraig


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## weepiper (Feb 20, 2010)

lizzieloo said:


> I know.
> 
> But he spells his name Patrick, not Padraig



and why is that such a big deal?


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## lizzieloo (Feb 20, 2010)

weepiper said:


> and why is that such a big deal?



that'll be you making it a big deal.


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## Wookey (Feb 20, 2010)

weepiper said:


> no.
> 
> the way Gaelic orthography works demands that it's a 'd' in that position because it has an 'a' either side of it. It's still pronounced 't'. If it were spelt with a 't' it would be pronounced 'tch'



In my dialect, there's a d, but I'm speaking an Anglicised version of a previously Anglicised word (it used to be pronounced Coithric in early Irish Celtic dialects as they didn't have the sounds available for Patrick). In Gaelic dialects, I'm sure it can appear as an elided d, or not at all, giving Paw-rick, but the t unvoiced pronunication doesn't seem very common in Gaelic speakers I've heard.


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## Stoat Boy (Feb 20, 2010)

Chairman Meow said:


> There is one thing I don't get about Irish travellers, and would be grateful if someone could explain it. I know they have loads of cleaning taboos and rituals, and the inside of their caravans are spotless. So how come their camps are always a filthy mess? Here in Cork there are quite a few travellers sites and every site I have seen has been a shambles. It just doesn't seem to fit in with the cleaning thing.




Every time I have seen traveller sites in southern England I have always found the same thing as well. A mate in the old bill tells me that when ever he has to venture onto a traveller site he has to make sure his boots are throughly washed afterwards because of the amount of human excrement that is on the ground.


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## weepiper (Feb 20, 2010)

lizzieloo said:


> that'll be you making it a big deal.



fine, you're right I'm wrong, I clearly am not allowed an opinion on anything in this place anymore and I think it's time I took a breather from U75 for a bit.


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## lizzieloo (Feb 20, 2010)

weepiper said:


> fine, you're right I'm wrong, I clearly am not allowed an opinion on anything in this place anymore and I think it's time I took a breather from U75 for a bit.



I don't think you're wrong about the name Patrick/Padraig, it is pronounced the same way, he just happened to use the first spelling.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Feb 20, 2010)

weepiper said:


> fine, you're right I'm wrong, I clearly am not allowed an opinion on anything in this place anymore and I think it's time I took a breather from U75 for a bit.



or just go at the pedants and ignore them


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 20, 2010)

I was wondering if it would be better_ just_ to call him Pa...like his wife did.


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## Part 2 (Feb 20, 2010)

Watched it this aft on catchup (4od with it's adverts)

I felt sorry for Joan, poor girl. Snide that she was forced by tradition being a 'settled' traveller and having had a taste of regular life with working and all really.

Paddy Doherty is TVs celebrity gypsy, been on a few shows including a full show of some Danny Dyer hardman thing. I've known of a few of the family aswell as a lot from the other settled families in the North West.


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## Iguana (Feb 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> no.
> 
> the way Gaelic orthography works demands that it's a 'd' in that position because it has an 'a' either side of it. It's still pronounced 't'. If it were spelt with a 't' it would be pronounced 'tch'



Where are you getting this from?  First off the Irish language is Gaeilge not Gaelic.  Secondly the language varies quite a bit between the different provinces.  Thirdly it's usually spelled Pádraig and doesn't sound the same as Patrick.  The 'Pá' is pronounced _paw_ and the 'd' is pronounced but not like a 't' it's a soft 'd' and has more in common with a short glottal stop than a 't' and the 'g' is pronouced softly, it's like 'gh' not 'ck.'


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## cesare (Feb 21, 2010)

Chip Barm said:


> Watched it this aft on catchup (4od with it's adverts)
> 
> *I felt sorry for Joan, poor girl. Snide that she was forced by tradition being a 'settled' traveller and having had a taste of regular life with working and all really.*
> 
> Paddy Doherty is TVs celebrity gypsy, been on a few shows including a full show of some Danny Dyer hardman thing. I've known of a few of the family aswell as a lot from the other settled families in the North West.



I watched it this afternoon too. I only felt sorry for her in the sense that she was stepping out into the unknown and was unsure what to expect. She left a comment on the programme ... and had some good luck wishes but nothing _pitying_ her.


----------



## Chairman Meow (Feb 21, 2010)

Iguana said:


> Where are you getting this from?  First off the Irish language is Gaeilge not Gaelic.  Secondly the language varies quite a bit between the different provinces.  Thirdly it's usually spelled Pádraig and doesn't sound the same as Patrick.  The 'Pá' is pronounced _paw_ and the 'd' is pronounced but not like a 't' it's a soft 'd' and has more in common with a short glottal stop than a 't' and the 'g' is pronouced softly, it's like 'gh' not 'ck.'



I agree with this, and I know loads of Patricks and Padraigs.


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 21, 2010)

Chairman Meow said:


> I agree with this, and I know loads of Patricks and Padraigs.



I always thought Padraig was pronounced Pawrig (although i may have been failing massively) and then I taught a lad who pronounced his name Pad-raig: just as it's spelled.  I was really confused - he was 15 and his parents were both irish and had moved over a few years before he was born...  he swore he'd never ever heard of it being prononced any other way.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 21, 2010)

I wish I hadn't bothered posting that now. I haven't even seen the show.


----------



## cesare (Feb 21, 2010)

Chairman Meow said:


> I agree with this, and I know loads of Patricks and Padraigs.



Yep, my Dad went on a course a few years ago to brush up on the Gaeilge (sp?) that he had to speak at school in Dublin. Trouble was, most of the other people on the course & the tutor were from different parts of Ireland and he found it really hard going, all very disparate in pronunciation and the like.


----------



## lizzieloo (Feb 21, 2010)

LilMissHissyFit said:


> or just go at the pedants and ignore them



How does fuck off with your oar grab you?

It was Weepiper being a pedant, and weepipers toys all over the floor.


----------



## sadie lady (Feb 21, 2010)

we were on holiday about 3 yrs ago in salou,and sammy-jo that was in the programme was there with her family both manchester/irish,there must of been about 20 of them.my god !!!.....i cant even explain what it was like.they dominated the pool,they shouted in the hotel restaurant at every meal time,their table manners were disgusting,they ate chips for every meal including breakfast. she was even eating a plate of chips at her wedding! and she could of killed u with one look.then on a night time u couldnt even film your kids at the disco for them walking in front of you shouting to each other about what they wanted from the bar.no social standards at all. everyone just stared at them- u couldnt help yourself from doing it.everything they did was a massive pantomine.as far as the programme went,i really enjoyed it.the dressmaker wouldnt reveal what she charged for those dresses,but they can cost up to 15 grand a piece.she must be laughing her tits off thats all i can say.it was joan i felt sorry for ,i really think she was just doing it because she was 22 and she thought that as too old (poor girl).you could see the terror in her face.theres a couple of things i dont get? why have all the gypsy boys got those bloody awful greasy mullets?.and the girls are all so stunning...what the hell do they find attractive in those lads.its a strange mixture!


----------



## Part 2 (Feb 21, 2010)

Fucking hell thats some first post


----------



## Chairman Meow (Feb 21, 2010)

Chip Barm said:


> Fucking hell thats some first post



Heh. My thoughts exactly.


----------



## Part 2 (Feb 21, 2010)

I reckon it deserves quoting.



sadie lady said:


> we were on holiday about 3 yrs ago in salou,and sammy-jo that was in the programme was there with her family both manchester/irish,there must of been about 20 of them.my god !!!.....i cant even explain what it was like.they dominated the pool,they shouted in the hotel restaurant at every meal time,their table manners were disgusting,they ate chips for every meal including breakfast. she was even eating a plate of chips at her wedding! and she could of killed u with one look.then on a night time u couldnt even film your kids at the disco for them walking in front of you shouting to each other about what they wanted from the bar.no social standards at all. everyone just stared at them- u couldnt help yourself from doing it.everything they did was a massive pantomine.as far as the programme went,i really enjoyed it.the dressmaker wouldnt reveal what she charged for those dresses,but they can cost up to 15 grand a piece.she must be laughing her tits off thats all i can say.it was joan i felt sorry for ,i really think she was just doing it because she was 22 and she thought that as too old (poor girl).you could see the terror in her face.theres a couple of things i dont get? why have all the gypsy boys got those bloody awful greasy mullets?.and the girls are all so stunning...what the hell do they find attractive in those lads.its a strange mixture!


----------



## paolo (Feb 21, 2010)

Chairman Meow said:


> There is one thing I don't get about Irish travellers, and would be grateful if someone could explain it. I know they have loads of cleaning taboos and rituals, and the inside of their caravans are spotless. So how come their camps are always a filthy mess? Here in Cork there are quite a few travellers sites and every site I have seen has been a shambles. It just doesn't seem to fit in with the cleaning thing.



Not sure I can offer any particular insight, but I spent an hour or so at the Waterden Lane site, in the Olympic area, a few months before eviction. It was spotless, and the woman and her friend whom we spent time with were very courteous, very civilised.

Maybe there's more respect for the surroundings when it's a permanent site? Dunno.


----------



## Ground Elder (Feb 22, 2010)

Some Gypsies and Travellers are are anti-social, violent, fly-tipping criminals, the majority are not. Condemn this minority, but recognise that they are as much a problem for their communities as they are to us.

Sadie Lady - top post


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Feb 22, 2010)

lizzieloo said:


> How does fuck off with your oar grab you?
> 
> It was Weepiper being a pedant, and weepipers toys all over the floor.



BUT ITS FUCKING IRRELEVANT TO THE THREAD YOU ABSOLUTE TOOL

Now, toys back in box and on with the thread?? no??


----------



## Star Dove (Feb 22, 2010)

spanglechick said:


> I always thought Padraig was pronounced Pawrig (although i may have been failing massively) and then I taught a lad who pronounced his name Pad-raig: just as it's spelled.  I was really confused - he was 15 and his parents were both irish and had moved over a few years before he was born...  he swore he'd never ever heard of it being prononced any other way.



With most Irish names there's no right or wrong, it's all down to where you're from.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/jul/24/golf.comment


----------



## lizzieloo (Feb 22, 2010)

LilMissHissyFit said:


> BUT ITS FUCKING IRRELEVANT TO THE THREAD YOU ABSOLUTE TOOL
> 
> Now, toys back in box and on with the thread?? no??



It's Weepiper you should be directing your crap at if you care to read the thread, Zenie asked what Pa was short for, I answered, Weepiper went on and on and on..........you useless shite.

Am I just a more comfortable target?


----------



## Looby (Feb 22, 2010)

To be honest you kind of both went on a bit. Can we just call him John?


----------



## lizzieloo (Feb 22, 2010)

sparklefish said:


> To be honest you kind of both went on a bit. Can we just call him John?


 


OK, I'm sorry I went on.


----------



## dtb (Feb 22, 2010)

an interesting documentary, did it dispel any myths about gypsies/travellers - probably not. most honest hard working people were probably wandering where the hell they get their money from to stage such elaborate weddings and drive around in BMWs/Mercs and 4x4s


----------



## lizzieloo (Feb 22, 2010)

dtb said:


> an interesting documentary, did it dispel any myths about gypsies/travellers - probably not. most honest hard working people were probably wandering where the hell they get their money from to stage such elaborate weddings and drive around in BMWs/Mercs and 4x4s


 
By honest hard work maybe?


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 22, 2010)

doh!


----------



## grit (Feb 22, 2010)

lizzieloo said:


> By honest hard work maybe?



No.


----------



## lizzieloo (Feb 22, 2010)

grit said:


> No.


 
All travellers are thieves? 

I supposed everyone in a hood is a mugger and them teenage boys that wear baseball caps.

People that live on council estates all commit burglaries.

Where do they get their money from then?


----------



## Thora (Feb 22, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> Not sure I can offer any particular insight, but I spent an hour or so at the Waterden Lane site, in the Olympic area, a few months before eviction. It was spotless, and the woman and her friend whom we spent time with were very courteous, very civilised.
> 
> Maybe there's more respect for the surroundings when it's a permanent site? Dunno.



There's definitely an element that if it's a temporary site and you don't know when you'll be kicked out, there's less motivation to keep things tidy.  And also the practical issues of binmen won't pick up your rubbish.


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Feb 22, 2010)

sparklefish said:


> To be honest you kind of both went on a bit. Can we just call him John?



INNIT.... whoever was going on you were both being fucking pedantic and irrelevant!


----------



## pootle (Feb 22, 2010)

dtb said:


> an interesting documentary, did it dispel any myths about gypsies/travellers - probably not.



Yes - I was intrigued/amazed/impressed at the very strict moral standards the children actually adhere to - the not drinking or sex before marriage stuff 

And I've previously worked with Gypsy and Traveller groups and I felt I learn stuff about their culture and outlook an' that.


----------



## Part 2 (Feb 22, 2010)

dtb said:


> an interesting documentary, did it dispel any myths about gypsies/travellers - probably not. most honest hard working people were probably wandering where the hell they get their money from to stage such elaborate weddings and drive around in BMWs/Mercs and 4x4s



It depends what myths you believe in the first place. As far as the nice cars etc they're no different from loads of non-gypsies in the construction industry who run their own businesses.

If I came away from the program with anything it's that the tradition is very controlling. It's a life full of contradictions. The idea that 'that's what we all do and we all do it' is bollocks IME. There was no mention of what happens to people who don't stick to the rules for example and one day as a princess doesn't equal a lifetime of happiness.


----------



## Louloubelle (Feb 22, 2010)

N_igma said:


> Erm is there anyone here who actually has regular contact with Irish travellers?
> 
> Doesn't seem like it to me!




While I would not claim to be an authority by a long shot I have worked with many kids from travelling families over the years and also had some interesting conversations with travelers about cultural stuff which was where I heard all the stuff about taboos about washing clothes and touching etc.

In my distant, ancestral past I have gypsy ancestry, although my lot were from the Scottish highlands and borders, not Ireland.

Also I live just down the road from a travelers camp.  My contact with the people there has been limited to brief conversations with the children about fighting (a subject apparently close to their hearts) and refusing to buy camcorders* for £50 from traveling women on the occasions I have been asked.  

* boxes full of potatoes in fact


----------



## Maggot (Mar 9, 2010)

Just about to start again on Channel 4.

MIssed it the first time but everyone was talking about it.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Mar 31, 2010)

*Viewer demand sees C4 revisit Gypsy Weddings*

Seems we can't get enough of this show



> Channel 4 is to turn its Cutting Edge ratings smash My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding into a six-part series on the back of calls by viewers for more on the subject



http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/news/...ees-c4-revisit-gypsy-weddings/5012301.article


----------



## Ranbay (Jan 18, 2011)

Big Fat Gypsy Weddings.

Tonight at 9pm C4


----------



## Part 2 (Jan 18, 2011)

A few preview clips...

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/big-fat-gypsy-weddings/articles/video-extras


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 18, 2011)

This got top pick in the Daily Mails saturday TV guide pull out that I nicked from work. Hadn't even clocked what paper it was but the write up mentioned the expense of the dresses and 'not much to be said about where the money for them comes from!'. Is not even a TV listings mag free from political brow beating? Imagine the lulz if the Socialist ran a TV guide.


----------



## boohoo (Jan 18, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> This got top pick in the Daily Mails saturday TV guide pull out that I nicked from work. Hadn't even clocked what paper it was but the write up mentioned the expense of the dresses and 'not much to be said about where the money for them comes from!'. Is not even a TV listings mag free from political brow beating? Imagine the lulz if the Socialist ran a TV guide.



"nicked from work"?????

You bought a copy, didn't you.....*shakes head*


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 18, 2011)

On in a sec. The Guardian Guide says it's a 'fascinating, well-made and sensitive' documentary.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 18, 2011)

Still as fascinating as the first one. I love this show.


----------



## editor (Jan 18, 2011)

That was some wedding dress.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 18, 2011)

Well that was interesting. On now on Channel 4+1 is anyone missed it and is interested.


----------



## Santino (Jan 18, 2011)

It could have been more sensitive.


----------



## Dan U (Jan 18, 2011)

Some great dresses and interesting courtship 

Looking forward to the next one, didn't think I would enjoy that.


----------



## May Kasahara (Jan 18, 2011)

Interesting and depressing in equal measure.


----------



## Rebelda (Jan 18, 2011)

Grabbing


----------



## Ponyutd (Jan 18, 2011)

Swanley "If I'm late, she'll *murdercaite* me."


----------



## Rebelda (Jan 18, 2011)




----------



## IMR (Jan 18, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> On in a sec. The Guardian Guide says it's a 'fascinating, well-made and sensitive' documentary.



It was a well-made documentary, although ironic that the travellers' way of life embodied a lot of values the Guardian is not renowned for extolling to its own readership - marriage, rigid gender roles, primacy of family ties over friendships with non-relatives, high birth rate.


----------



## Santino (Jan 18, 2011)

Domestic violence, misogyny, medieval attitudes to female sexuality...


----------



## IMR (Jan 18, 2011)

Santino said:


> Domestic violence, misogyny, medieval attitudes to female sexuality...


 
Seems to work though. Travellers' descendants will likely outnumber Guardian readers' descendants in the not-too-distant future.

Anyway, I've come across a fair few 'non-sexist men' in the past who turned out to be energetic girlfriend-bashers. I don't think travellers have a monopoly on that.


----------



## Santino (Jan 18, 2011)

Works at what?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 18, 2011)

I've videoed, taped, recorded it.

Is it as good as the last one?


----------



## Santino (Jan 18, 2011)

IMR said:


> Anyway, I've come across a fair few 'non-sexist men' in the past who turned out to be energetic girlfriend-bashers.



That's devastating.


----------



## IMR (Jan 18, 2011)

Santino said:


> Works at what?



Continuing their way of life and ensuring plenty of descendants. You don't really think childless atheists and hispters are going to inherit the earth?


----------



## Santino (Jan 18, 2011)

Those damn childless atheists lol

Anyway, I'll defer judgement when I see some statistics on gypsy and traveller population. I assume you have them to hand and aren't basing your beliefs on a bit of reality tv you've just seen.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 18, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've videoed, taped, recorded it.
> 
> Is it as good as the last one?


 
No. We've seen it before. 5 stone frocks, innocent virgin homemakers bumping and grinding in sequin bikinis, aforementioned mediaeval stuff etc. 

Next week looks more interesting - sites being smashed and people dragged through mud by the rozzers. Potentially blood boiling tbh.


----------



## IMR (Jan 18, 2011)

You go and look up your statistics Santino.


----------



## Santino (Jan 18, 2011)

IMR said:


> You go and look up your statistics Santino.


 
No, I am not trying to prove a sweeping generalisation to an internet audience as a way of saving face.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 18, 2011)

Santino said:


> Those damn childless atheists lol
> 
> Anyway, I'll defer judgement when I see some statistics on gypsy and traveller population. I assume you have them to hand and aren't basing your beliefs on a bit of reality tv you've just seen.


 
10 yr old stats for Guardian readership = 400k. Always seemed a nice round comparison to Sun = 4m.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 18, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> No. We've seen it before. 5 stone frocks, innocent virgin homemakers bumping and grinding in sequin bikinis, aforementioned mediaeval stuff etc.
> 
> Next week looks more interesting - sites being smashed and people dragged through mud by the rozzers. Potentially blood boiling tbh.


 

I've heard in Ireland they put up thousands beforehand to any pubs where they might hold receptions as collateral for any damage that might be incurred.

Don't know how true that is


----------



## Santino (Jan 18, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> 10 yr old stats for Guardian readership = 400k. Always seemed a nice round comparison to Sun = 4m.


 
How many of those are childless atheists?


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 18, 2011)

IMR said:


> You go and look up your statistics Santino.


 
Guardian reading urbanites outnumber trolls like you, son.


----------



## IMR (Jan 18, 2011)

Your kind are doomed Santino. Spraying spunk all over your computer keyboard when you could be siring brats.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 18, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've heard in Ireland they put up thousands beforehand to any pubs where they might hold receptions as collateral for any damage that might be incurred.
> 
> Don't know how true that is



Yep, who knows? Don't let that stop you repeating it though


----------



## IMR (Jan 18, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Guardian reading urbanites outnumber trolls like you, son.


 
Not for long!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 18, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Yep, who knows? Don't let that stop you repeating it though



I was just wondering how true it is or whether it's just certain well-known families that have given the rest of them a bad name


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 18, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I was just wondering how true it is or whether it's just certain well-known families that have given the rest of them a bad name


 
How the fuck do I know? Or you?


----------



## Part 2 (Jan 18, 2011)

IMR said:


> It was a well-made documentary, although ironic that the travellers' way of life embodied a lot of values the Guardian is not renowned for extolling to its own readership - marriage, rigid gender roles, primacy of family ties over friendships with non-relatives, high birth rate.


 
Not sure what that has to do with it being 'fascinating and well made' 

Myself I'm still waiting to hear what happens to the poor girls who don't behave as expected and abide by the strict (ahem) 'moral' code. The ones who are 'scandalised' because they choose to do what most teenagers do, go to school, have boyfriends, experiment with drinking and aspire to something other than cooking and cleaning.

Although I don't think we'll be hearing about it somehow.


----------



## Santino (Jan 18, 2011)

A wide range of gypsy- and Pakistani-related racism is now available on Twitter.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 18, 2011)

You do realise you're all looking at this from a completely different cultural viewpoint right?

Those women didn't come across as feeling oppressed for a start.


----------



## Santino (Jan 18, 2011)

lizzieloo said:


> You do realise you're all looking at this from a completely different cultural viewpoint right?
> 
> Those women didn't come across as feeling oppressed for a start.



So?


----------



## Chairman Meow (Jan 18, 2011)

The grabbing was pretty shocking stuff.

As for the money and the cars, its not quite like what any successful businessmen would be driving. A lot of settled travellers live in Rathkeale near Limerick and every Christmas a lot of the men drive their cars home from wherever they've been working in Europe( mainly in tarmaccing gangs). The cars are something else, many worth 100k plus, often driven by mean in their 20s. Some of them build absolutely massive houses, then live in the garden in their caravans. My husband works with a bloke who is related to settled travellers, he says it is true that they have to put a lot of money behind the bar when a wedding is on. He went to a wedding in Youghal last year and the whole town pretty much shut down for the day except for one pub!

I did feel sorry for the little girl in the massive communion dress, she could hardly walk!


----------



## Strumpet (Jan 18, 2011)

Thora said:


> Love the combination of such strict, old fashioned morality and the glamour model dresses.


Me too 



Rebelda said:


> Grabbing





Chairman Meow said:


> The grabbing was pretty shocking stuff.


I know!! 



Chairman Meow said:


> I did feel sorry for the little girl in the massive communion dress, she could hardly walk!


And I did. Especially when a couple of the other little girls started laughing.


----------



## madamv (Jan 18, 2011)

I love the irish traveller accents.  Very smooth and sexy


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 18, 2011)

Chairman Meow said:


> he says it is true that they have to put a lot of money behind the bar when a wedding is on.


 
But why?  Is it just one family or group of families that made pubs do this or are their parties just naturally rather lively and a bit more thanthe odd glass gets broken?


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

Money behind the bar for drinks!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 19, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Money behind the bar for drinks!



aha


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

Grabbing is far less 'shocking' than what non-gypsy teens with less strict family morals get up to in the parks of a Friday night.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

IMR said:


> It was a well-made documentary, although ironic that the travellers' way of life embodied a lot of values the Guardian is not renowned for extolling to its own readership - marriage, rigid gender roles, primacy of family ties over friendships with non-relatives, high birth rate.


 
Spot on. The Irish travellers I know think this programme is great.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

Santino said:


> Domestic violence, misogyny, medieval attitudes to female sexuality...


 
Racist twat.




			
				IMR said:
			
		

> You don't really think childless atheists and hispters are going to inherit the earth?



LOOOOOOOOL


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jan 19, 2011)

Hipsters, lol.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

I look forward to the day that Gordian Beans and 'i' people become extinct.


----------



## Cloo (Jan 19, 2011)

Ponyutd said:


> Swanley "If I'm late, she'll *murdercaite* me."


 
That guy was the definition of 'big lummox'.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 19, 2011)

IMR said:


> Continuing their way of life and ensuring plenty of descendants. You don't really think childless atheists and hispters are going to inherit the earth?


 
That's the meek. The childless atheists and hipsters are doing the DJing.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

lagtbd said:


> That's the meek. The childless atheists and hipsters are doing the DJing.


 
And cycling/bussing it home to their flat above a shop lol.


----------



## pennimania (Jan 19, 2011)

Chairman Meow said:


> The grabbing was pretty shocking stuff.
> 
> As for the money and the cars, its not quite like what any successful businessmen would be driving. A lot of settled travellers live in Rathkeale near Limerick and every Christmas a lot of the men drive their cars home from wherever they've been working in Europe( mainly in tarmaccing gangs). The cars are something else, many worth 100k plus, often driven by mean in their 20s. Some of them build absolutely massive houses, then live in the garden in their caravans. My husband works with a bloke who is related to settled travellers, he says it is true that they have to put a lot of money behind the bar when a wedding is on. He went to a wedding in Youghal last year and the whole town pretty much shut down for the day except for one pub!
> 
> I did feel sorry for the little girl in the massive communion dress, she could hardly walk!


 

me too - that was quite a disturbing image - but I suppose it was what she wanted.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

pennimania said:


> me too - that was quite a disturbing image - but I suppose it was what she wanted.


 
Jesus wept. Maybe one day she'll come around to your way of thinking, eh?


----------



## Griff (Jan 19, 2011)

Chairman Meow said:


> I did feel sorry for the little girl in the massive communion dress, she could hardly walk!



That was the LOL! of the programme. 

Jesus!


----------



## Santino (Jan 19, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Grabbing is far less 'shocking' than what non-gypsy teens with less strict family morals get up to in the parks of a Friday night.



What, all teens?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

Santino said:


> What, all teens?


 
No, not ones from your sheltered life experience, no.


----------



## Santino (Jan 19, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> No, not ones from your sheltered life experience, no.


 
What proportion of teens do you reckon, then? What's your evidence base. Aside from tabloid journalism, I assume. You wouldn't be basing your argument solely on a few Daily Mail-type stories about the terrible things that teens get up to.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

haven't read thread, programme was funny, love to find out what these guys do. the men looked WELL hard like they could fell anyone with a single blow. was quite a good programme as before i was totally scared of them but now i see that some of them are quite nice... that Swiley seemed like a nice guy. i am still terrified of the children though in real life but maybe if i watch the programme more i will get over that.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

a GENIUS idea for a show though. everyone is interested to know what goes on in gypsy camps etc.


----------



## girasol (Jan 19, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Grabbing is far less 'shocking' than what non-gypsy teens with less strict family morals get up to in the parks of a Friday night.


 
 you might have a point.  boys used to chase girls when we were that age, we'd run away, they catch us up, grab us and try and steal a kiss.  It was all very innocent and almost like play fighting.  but with kissing at the end!

although there was no intention of marriage coming out from such activities! 

I found it really interesting and tried to be as non judgemental as I could.  It's a different way of life and people always get very judgemental when they see something they don't understand or aren't used to.  Bit shit on the education front, but, well, the education establishment doesn't work for everyone.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

Santy, the evidence of your sheltered life is your posting record here.


----------



## Santino (Jan 19, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Santy, the evidence of your sheltered life is your posting record here.


 
This isn't about me, it's about what all teenagers get up to every Friday night. I can't wait to find out where you get your facts from.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

everyone is sheltered from some things, otherwise you would be omniscient.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

Lol


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

Hipsters


----------



## IMR (Jan 19, 2011)

Nothing wrong with Santino that a few years of the traveller way of life couldn't put right. In one end: fey internet weed. Out the other: a real man.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

Pmsl@IMR


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Hipsters


 
you have been sheltered from the hipster way of life Ernest.


----------



## Santino (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm being attacked ON THE INTERNET for being an internet user.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

Medieval!


----------



## IMR (Jan 19, 2011)

Santino said:


> I'm being attacked ON THE INTERNET for being an internet user.



You need to learn the value of what's really important. Like non-ferrous metals, for instance.


----------



## Santino (Jan 19, 2011)

So, do you think that all teenage girls spend every Friday night in the park doing 'more shocking' things than grabbing? Is that your considered opinion, ernie?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

Daily Mailesque.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

Those barbaric medieval gypsies. Grabbing they was.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

actually at the same time as gypsy wedding there was another tv show that showed just what teenagers get up to on holiday on their own... so actually i found out what teenagers and gyosys get up to without ever having to leave my living room. 

eta i know everyone else gets their information from real life and the streets but this is just how i prefer to do my research


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

It's sex mania!


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> It's sex mania!


 
sorry no the programme said quite the opposite.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 19, 2011)

One question I have... the narrator made reference to the two types of gypsy groups in the UK, that being Irish gypsies, and the other being Romany. It also says that mixing with people outside the gypsy community is forbidden. Does anyone know if Irish and Romany groups are allowed to mix? Or is that also forbidden? It seems these shows are exclusively given over to gypsies of Irish descent so there wasn't much perspective on if the same values and stuff is true of the Romany community.

Also, it was interesting how the Irish accent largely persists, despite the fact I'm guessing most of these people don't grow up in Ireland. I guess that comes from the them not wishing to mix much with people outside of the community right?


----------



## g force (Jan 19, 2011)

They definitely mix from my experience - some of the fairs run in the West Mids were done by a mix of the two.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

the romany ones wouldn't be catholic would they? would be a bit of a coincidence if they were anyway.


----------



## Dan U (Jan 19, 2011)

i wondered that about the accent as well.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

dunno the accent seemed pretty self explanatory to me... a bit of whatever area they were based in, a bit of irish because they mostly didn't mix with outsiders.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 19, 2011)

One of the girls from West London (the blonde one if I recall) seemed to have more of an London/English accent with only a hint of Irish, but most seemed much more defined Irish.


----------



## radio_atomica (Jan 19, 2011)

aww I thought swanley was ace.  the rest of it, i really don't know what to think.  closed communities, rigid expectations for all members of community, but specifically much more rigid and limiting for girls and women (although as swanley mentioned, a bloke would be looked at weird if he stayed at home and helped with the kids and housework too) - much the same as strict christian families who home school etc. none of that sits well with me to be honest but its not my life so i'm not going to say they can't carry on.

some questions though - what happens if a young person in that community is gay?  what happens to a girl who is raped or sexually abused - is she classed as 'dirty' and therefore unmarriable same as a girl who has consentual sexual activity before marriage? what happens to a girl who gets 'too old' to get married? what about kids who want to keep going to school?


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

radio_atomica said:


> some questions though - what happens if a young person in that community is gay?  what happens to a girl who is raped or sexually abused - is she classed as 'dirty' and therefore unmarriable same as a girl who has consentual sexual activity before marriage? what happens to a girl who gets 'too old' to get married? what about kids who want to keep going to school?


 
Absolutely. The lack of anything 'bad' was glaring. I wanted to see a story about someone who _left_, for whatever reason. Interview a 'scandalised' woman, a gay man, an umarried 38 yr old who only ever sees their gran in secret or whateverthefuck. 

Everything was pretty fucking rosy but as I noted - next week looks to be a bit more interesting.


----------



## radio_atomica (Jan 19, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Absolutely. The lack of anything 'bad' was glaring. I wanted to see a story about someone who _left_, for whatever reason. Interview a 'scandalised' woman, a gay man, an umarried 38 yr old who only ever sees their gran in secret or whateverthefuck.
> 
> Everything was pretty fucking rosy but as I noted - next week looks to be a bit more interesting.


 
because it is a closed community though, i doubt they would allow those kinds of documentaries to be made - i reckon if you said 'what happens if someone was gay' they would most likely say 'there are no gay travellers'.  would love to be proved wrong on that, just a gut instinct.  that's my main worry, is that there is soo much responsibility on these young people, especially the young women and girls to be a 'good traveller girl' and as i say its similar to keeping strictly christian children home schooled (i think this is wrong) or forced (not arranged) marriaged in the muslim community (i think this is wrong) - that doesn't mean i think people shouldn't be christians or muslims.


----------



## radio_atomica (Jan 19, 2011)

also, the glaring contradictions.  if the girls are pure til marriage through their own choice, why do they have to be chaperoned?  i think there is an awful lot of cognitive dissonance going on.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

radio_atomica said:


> because it is a closed community though, i doubt they would allow those kinds of documentaries to be made - i reckon if you said 'what happens if someone was gay' they would most likely say 'there are no gay travellers'.  would love to be proved wrong on that, just a gut instinct.  that's my main worry, is that there is soo much responsibility on these young people, especially the young women and girls to be a 'good traveller girl' and as i say its similar to keeping strictly christian children home schooled (i think this is wrong) or forced (not arranged) marriaged in the muslim community (i think this is wrong) - that doesn't mean i think people shouldn't be christians or muslims.


 
It might be a closed community but it's not hiding in a box with one locked door


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 19, 2011)

radio_atomica said:


> also, the glaring contradictions.  if the girls are pure til marriage through their own choice, why do they have to be chaperoned?  i think there is an awful lot of cognitive dissonance going on.


 
Interesting point. In last night's episode, one of the women said that if a rumour goes around it will be believed and will ruin the woman's life - maybe as big a factor as anything actually happening.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

It _must _ have happened though


----------



## radio_atomica (Jan 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Interesting point. In last night's episode, one of the women said that if a rumour goes around it will be believed and will ruin the woman's life - maybe as big a factor as anything actually happening.


 
That's true, if a 3rd party is there they can be backed up if anyone starts rumours.  But it must be a headfuck - its their choice to wait until marriage, but they're not even allowed to carry out that choice without other people interfering, the risk of rumours, the possibility that their reputation will be ruined and then that'll be it forever because nobody will marry them.

Also the pure til marriage, only go out in groups doesn't apply to boys as well, but they're not supposed to mix with outsiders so who are they getting their jollies with?


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

I imagine the boys can fuck whoever they want.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 19, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> I imagine the boys can fuck whoever they want.


 
Yeah, seems that way


----------



## radio_atomica (Jan 19, 2011)

Yeah - so who?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 19, 2011)

I used to drink in a pub which a lot of travellers used to drink in - all nice fellas - but anyway they didn't seem to have many reservations about flirting with non-travelling women. No idea if anything ever happened or if it was just flirting though. Also they used to buy us a fuckload of drinks. I liked them!


----------



## Ivana Nap (Jan 19, 2011)

radio_atomica said:


> some questions though - what happens if a young person in that community is gay?  what happens to a girl who is raped or sexually abused - is she classed as 'dirty' and therefore unmarriable same as a girl who has consentual sexual activity before marriage? what happens to a girl who gets 'too old' to get married? what about kids who want to keep going to school?


 
It's a five part series so hopefully some of that will get covered, they can't just show five hours of gaudy dresses.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

radio_atomica said:


> Yeah - so who?


 
Well, anyone, in a manner of speaking. I am not sure closed community means what you think it means. The young people go to school, college and the pub among a million other places. They live in West London.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 19, 2011)

That Liverpudlian dress maker woman must be loving all the promo she's getting too.


----------



## Serotonin (Jan 19, 2011)

I've worked with a couple of traveller women who claimed that domestic violence and sexual abuse were endemic in the traveller cOmmunity. Both had been disowned by their families for speaking out about their experiences.


----------



## Chairman Meow (Jan 19, 2011)

The money behind the bar is for drinks, but also compensation to the bar owner should things kick off. There are a few bars and hotels that will accomodate them, but they all want extra money. I know in Youghal last time there was a gypsy wedding they shut most of the town for the afternoon, as the other shops and bar owners didn't want to take any chances.


----------



## Phenol (Jan 19, 2011)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gypsy-Boy-Struggle-Escape-Secret/dp/0340977965


Read this and it will answer just about all the questions asked on this page - great book actually!


----------



## radio_atomica (Jan 19, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Well, anyone, in a manner of speaking. I am not sure closed community means what you think it means. The young people go to school, college and the pub among a million other places. They live in West London.


 
I realise that - but a lot of the boys in the last program said they would never _marry_ a girl from outside the community.  Presumably they would sleep with them though - which just raises more questions about attitudes to women.

e2a; the girl getting married stopped going to school at 11.  i know that kids younger than that from the site round here don't go to school (definately not full time anyway) because the young lad knocks on my door (probably about 10) to ask if we've got anything we want taking away (old tellys etc).


----------



## Chairman Meow (Jan 19, 2011)

Serotonin said:


> I've worked with a couple of traveller women who claimed that domestic violence and sexual abuse were endemic in the traveller cOmmunity. Both had been disowned by their families for speaking out about their experiences.


 
Yeah, I got that impression when they asked the two girls what kind of man the wanted to marry, and one of them said ''one that doesn't beat you'!

I liked Swanley until he laughed about being directed to the P*** wedding. Then wore a vest to cut the cake.


----------



## girasol (Jan 19, 2011)

radio_atomica said:


> I realise that - but a lot of the boys in the last program said they would never _marry_ a girl from outside the community.  Presumably they would sleep with them though - which just raises more questions about attitudes to women.


 
A lot of their attitudes are very much the same as the mainstream attitudes of the 40s/50s I thought...  With men having carte blanche to do as they pleased...  Still, I'll continue to reserve judgement until I watch a bit more.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

radio_atomica said:


> I realise that - but a lot of the boys in the last program said they would never _marry_ a girl from outside the community.  Presumably they would sleep with them though - which just raises more questions about attitudes to women.



Oh, I do apologise. I thought you were going to say something insightful. Sorry to bother you


----------



## spawnofsatan (Jan 19, 2011)

The best bit was Swanley getting lost on the way to the church, no one else notice the massive Sat-Nav stuck to his windscreen


----------



## radio_atomica (Jan 19, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Oh, I do apologise. I thought you were going to say something insightful. Sorry to bother you


 
no  sorry


----------



## gabi (Jan 19, 2011)

radio_atomica said:


> aww I thought swanley was ace.


 
Ace?! 

Leaving aside being racist, sexist AND thick as two hundred short planks, what else was ace about him?


----------



## radio_atomica (Jan 19, 2011)

gabi said:


> Ace?!
> 
> Leaving aside being racist, sexist AND thick as two hundred short planks, what else was ace about him?


 
cutting the wedding cake in his vest...


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Interesting the tradition of children arriving by themselves to communion. What's _that_ all about?


----------



## keithy (Jan 19, 2011)

I liked that he asked what the non-racist way to say "it's a fucking Paki wedding!!" would be.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Before correcting himself by saying 'Indian'


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> Interesting the tradition of children arriving by themselves to communion. What's _that_ all about?


 
That's about as interesting as whether one opens their Christmas presents in the morning or waits 'til after The Queen's Speech


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> Before correcting himself by saying 'Indian'


 
no, that was the guy making the documentary who corrected him by saying that.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> Before correcting himself by saying 'Indian'


 
The Guardian reading programme maker suggested that, dipshit


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> The Guardian reading programme maker suggested that, dipshit


 
the programme makers were racist too! it all makes sense.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 19, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> That's about as interesting as whether one opens their Christmas presents in the morning or waits 'til after The Queen's Speech


 
Well I'm interested. What's the deal with that? For a community that's so protective over its children, it seems odd that they're happy to let them make their own way to a massive ceremony like communion on their own with only a limo driver as adult supervision.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

rutabowa said:


> the programme makers were racist too! it all makes sense.


 
Perhaps he recognised an Indian wedding from a Pakistani one?


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> Well I'm interested. What's the deal with that? For a community that's so protective over its children, it seems odd that they're happy to let them make their own way to a massive ceremony like communion on their own with only a limo driver as adult supervision.


 
Is communion like a bar mitzvah? Now you are a man, type thing? I wouldn't know - I'm an atheist.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 19, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Is communion like a bar mitzvah? Now you are a man, type thing? I wouldn't know - I'm an atheist.


 
Thanks. Really useful.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Perhaps he recognised an Indian wedding from a Pakistani one?


 very presumptuous of him!


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> Thanks. Really useful.


 
It's an idea in answer to your question  Might help explain why there's a tradition of sending the kids off by themselves, eh?



rutabowa said:


> very presumptuous of him!


 
Who?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

rutabowa said:


> very presumptuous of him!


 
Alcohol at Indian weddings, none at Pakistani weddings.


----------



## Melinda (Jan 19, 2011)

I found it depressing this time round. Some of the cultural relativism on this thread is infuriating.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Alcohol at Indian weddings, none at Pakistani weddings.


?? don't be silly, even if that were true, which it isn't, there is no way the documentary maker had spotted loads of guests necking bottles of champagne outside that wedding and deduced from that that it was an indian wedding. he was just replacing a bad word with a neutral word, the meanign didn't really matter.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

Well it wasn't really even a neutral word.

Swanley, "Well what's a non-racist word for them?"

Film bloke, "Indian?"


Indian can happily refer to anyone from the Indian subcontinent. Just try to avoid calling a Pakistani or Bangladeshi Indian. All very simple.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 19, 2011)

Perhaps it was a hindu wedding. We'll never know.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

Sounded like a Jain one to me.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Indian can happily refer to anyone from the Indian subcontinent. Just try to avoid calling a Pakistani or Bangladeshi Indian. All very simple.


eh?? those two sentences totally contradict each other.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

No one said understanding the subcontinent was easy.

An white Aussie or a Kiwi would not take offence at being described at European, both may be miffed at being called English.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 19, 2011)

It's like Canadians being Americans I suppose innit


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No one said understanding the subcontinent was easy.


don't patronise me, you were the one who said "all indian weddings have alcohol, all pakistani weddings are teetotal".


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

rutabowa said:


> don't patronise me, you were the one who said "all indian weddings have alcohol, all pakistani weddings are teetotal".


 
In Pakistan they are.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

i am sure you have been "travelling" around the indias and have lots of knowledge from that.


----------



## Griff (Jan 19, 2011)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

rutabowa said:


> i am sure you have been "travelling" around the indias and have lots of knowledge from that.


 
Nope. Only been to India once, to Goa for one week. 

Any other sneering presumptions you'd care to make?


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

you did bring it on yourself.


----------



## girasol (Jan 19, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> Perhaps he recognised an Indian wedding from a Pakistani one?


 
Confusing Indian and Pakistani isn't racist though, it's just ignorant...  Sometimes people shout racism when there isn't any.  He did stop and think that 'Paki' could be thought of as racist, does that make him a racist?  I'm confused now!


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

girasol said:


> Confusing Indian and Pakistani isn't racist though, it's just ignorant...  Sometimes people shout racism when there isn't any.  He did stop and think that 'Paki' could be thought of as racist, does that make him a racist?  I'm confused now!


both about the same level to me, neither that big a deal.


----------



## Melinda (Jan 19, 2011)

Griff said:


>


They should have bound her feet to complete the trussed up doll look.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

girasol said:


> Confusing Indian and Pakistani isn't racist though, it's just ignorant...  Sometimes people shout racism when there isn't any.  He did stop and think that 'Paki' could be thought of as racist, does that make him a racist?  I'm confused now!


 
He wasn't confusing Pakistani and Indian - he was using a derogatory word to describe brown people. Oh, wait hang on - do you mean the wiberal or the gyppo?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

rutabowa said:


> you did bring it on yourself.


 
Yes, how remiss of me to be factually correct


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

which bit was factually correct?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 19, 2011)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

rutabowa said:


> which bit was factually correct?


 
All of it.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Phwoaar


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Spot on. The Irish travellers I know think this programme is great.


Whereas all the Gypsies I've talked to about last night's programme hated it.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> All of it.


 


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Alcohol at Indian weddings, none at Pakistani weddings.


but look your first reply: as well as not being relevant it is just inaccurate. wound me up.


----------



## Melinda (Jan 19, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


>


The muse- 'Coming to America'


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

rutabowa said:


> but look your first reply: as well as not being relevant it is just inaccurate. wound me up.


 
@ weddings in India you will usually find alcohol, at weddings in Pakistan you not find alcohol. What is inaccurate about that?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

Melinda said:


> The muse- 'Coming to America'


 
Is that the bride he makes hop on one leg and bark like a dog?


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> @ weddings in India you will usually find alcohol, at weddings in Pakistan you not find alcohol. What is inaccurate about that?


that's not what you said though. you were replying to me, talking about this wedding in the programme.


----------



## Santino (Jan 19, 2011)

You get booze at Sikh weddings; you may or may not get booze at Hindu weddings; you tend not to get boozy at Muslim weddings.


----------



## Dan U (Jan 19, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> Whereas all the Gypsies I've talked to about last night's programme hated it.


 
you actually know some though and aren't trying to score cheap internet points.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 19, 2011)

(that's an Indian handbag btw)


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jan 19, 2011)

Melinda said:


> The muse- 'Coming to America'



Oh, well done. I forgot about that


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

rutabowa said:


> that's not what you said though. you were replying to me, talking about this wedding in the programme.


 
You wanted to know how to tell the difference between Indian and Pakistani weddings. I told you and the answer has wound you up.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You wanted to know how to tell the difference between Indian and Pakistani weddings. I told you and the answer has wound you up.


No i didn't. I said it was presumptuous of the journalist to decide whether it was an indian or a pakistani wedding from a 2 second glance whizzing past in a van; you replied defending him saying it was probably because he had seen alcohol there that he knew it was an indian wedding. i thought this to be a ridiculous and unlikely defence of him.


----------



## girasol (Jan 19, 2011)

tarannau said:


> (that's an Indian handbag btw)


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> One question I have... the narrator made reference to the two types of gypsy groups in the UK, that being Irish gypsies, and the other being Romany. It also says that mixing with people outside the gypsy community is forbidden. Does anyone know if Irish and Romany groups are allowed to mix? Or is that also forbidden? It seems these shows are exclusively given over to gypsies of Irish descent so there wasn't much perspective on if the same values and stuff is true of the Romany community.


Irish Travellers not Irish Gypsies. Irish Travellers and Gypsies do share sites and marry, but they are two distinct cultures with different languages, religions, culture, history and traditions. The Gypsies I was with this morning certainly have no time for Irish Travellers. They hated the programme as they felt they would be judged by the behaviour of the Irish which they considered shameful. One girl wouldn't go to school this morning as she knew all her gorja class mates will have watched it.

What My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding depicts is not typical and mostly does not feature Gypsies. Don't go thinking you've gained a real insight into Gypsy culture through watching this programme.


----------



## boerable (Jan 19, 2011)

Having been born into to a travelling family and the 1st one of my family to live in a house.I know the treatment by the Irish government and the church (move into a house or lose the kids) has cause a very them and us 

As much as i love my family i can't denied that they view non travellers with distrust and fair game for some pretty shitty things


----------



## Echo Base (Jan 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> I used to drink in a pub which a lot of travellers used to drink in - all nice fellas - but anyway they didn't seem to have many reservations about flirting with non-travelling women. No idea if anything ever happened or if it was just flirting though. Also they used to buy us a fuckload of drinks. I liked them!



Most of it, if not all if they are proper traveller boys, is just flirting as with these lads its all about front. They love a bit of a gammon with outside girls but most of them would run a mile if one said, yeah ok, outside in 5.


----------



## Echo Base (Jan 19, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> Well I'm interested. What's the deal with that? For a community that's so protective over its children, it seems odd that they're happy to let them make their own way to a massive ceremony like communion on their own with only a limo driver as adult supervision.


 
Its all about front. They would fly them in individually on a 747 and land in the Priests backgarden if they could. EVERYTHING with these lads is about showing off to the other lads.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

rutabowa said:


> No i didn't. I said it was presumptuous of the journalist to decide whether it was an indian or a pakistani wedding from a 2 second glance whizzing past in a van; you replied defending him saying it was probably because he had seen alcohol there that he knew it was an indian wedding. i thought this to be a ridiculous and unlikely defence of him.


 
But the journalist decided no such thing.

I stated how you can tell the difference between and Indian and Pakistani wedding.

The journalist merely suggested a non-racist term for a person who hails from the Indian subcontinent to the racist transit van driving groom, he made no mention of the wedding at all.


----------



## Santino (Jan 19, 2011)

What's a gorja?


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2011)

Romany word for anyone who isn't a Gypsy.


----------



## Echo Base (Jan 19, 2011)

Santino said:


> What's a gorja?



Traveller word for anyone outside the community. Romany in origin I believe.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> But the journalist decided no such thing.
> 
> I stated how you can tell the difference between and Indian and Pakistani wedding.
> 
> The journalist merely suggested a non-racist term for a person who hails from the Indian subcontinent to the racist transit van driving groom, he made no mention of the wedding at all.


ok so yuo were just showing off with a random fact that didn't actually reply to my post then... which was still inaccurate as lots of indian weddings don't have alcohol.


----------



## Echo Base (Jan 19, 2011)

Chairman Meow said:


> I liked Swanley until he laughed about being directed to the P*** wedding.



I thought that was hilarious, mostly because a 7ft traveller in a transit pulled up to a bloke asking where the church was and the bloke said, you here for the wedding, he said yes, and the bloke directed him to the Asian wedding. Fantastic.


----------



## Santino (Jan 19, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> Romany word for anyone who isn't a Gypsy.


 
Does it have a literal meaning? Like 'round-eyed devil' or something?


----------



## Dan U (Jan 19, 2011)

Santino said:


> Does it have a literal meaning? Like 'round-eyed devil' or something?


 
thats the chinese word for white people!

i forget how you say it now.


----------



## Echo Base (Jan 19, 2011)

Dan U said:


> thats the chinese word for white people!
> 
> i forget how you say it now.



gwi-lo


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

rutabowa said:


> ok so yuo were just showing off with a random fact that didn't actually reply to my post then... which was still inaccurate as lots of indian weddings don't have alcohol.


 
Nope. Just winding you up for jumping in calling people presumptuous and racist when you'd actually grabbed the wrong end of a shitty stick.


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 19, 2011)

I've not seen the latest one but I saw the one before and remember thinking they're Irish travellers not gypsies.  So why is it called blah blah gypsy wedding?


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nope. Just winding you up for jumping in calling people presumptuous and racist when you'd actually grabbed the wrong end of a shitty stick.


i was calling the journalist in the programme presumptuous. i don't know why you are so intent on defending him. and i would have thought my calling him "racist" was quite obviously taking the piss. so it is you who has had the wrong end of the stick all this time.


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2011)

Santino said:


> Does it have a literal meaning? Like 'round-eyed devil' or something?


The Romany language has its roots in north Indian languages and shares some words, including a version of gorja, with Punjabi.


----------



## Dandred (Jan 19, 2011)

I'd love to see a new age traveler wedding!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2011)

rutabowa said:


> i was calling the journalist in the programme presumptuous. i don't know why you are so intent on defending him. and i would have thought my calling him "racist" was quite obviously taking the piss. so it is you who has had the wrong end of the stick all this time.


 
Do-as-you-likey, "Paki"

Journalist says something not shown.

Do-as-you-likey, "Well what's a non-racist term for them?"

Journalist, "Er, Indians?"

No mention of any wedding. Just taking a stance against casual racism. Something about which seems to have got your goat.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Do-as-you-likey, "Paki"
> 
> Journalist says something not shown.
> 
> ...


umm they were TALKING about a WEDDING. as were YOU in your first post! and in every subsequent reply in this thread! except this last one where you somehow try to say that i'm racist. nice work you crazy.


----------



## Griff (Jan 19, 2011)




----------



## Dan U (Jan 19, 2011)

Echo Base said:


> gwi-lo



thats the one!


----------



## Dan U (Jan 19, 2011)

Dandred said:


> I'd love to see a new age traveler wedding!



An altar made of ketamine and smack and a ring made from purple tin

with a soundtrack by spiral tribe

i love a good generalisation me.


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2011)

No self respecting New Age Traveller would have a ring made from purple tin. Gold can or nothing.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 19, 2011)

Santino said:


> Does it have a literal meaning? Like 'round-eyed devil' or something?


 
master race ideology having never gained quite the same brand of militarism favoured by the nazis remains a problem with white south africans and the japanese. Happily a couple of nuclear weapons have discouraged the japanese from attempting military superiority outside of a narrow sphere of influence and the damn boers were already well outnumbered anyway so their fall was inevitable. And now I am treading close to the racism I am trying to mock...*flees*


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 19, 2011)

I thought this was about Penge when I flicked through the channels.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> Irish Travellers not Irish Gypsies. Irish Travellers and Gypsies do share sites and marry, but they are two distinct cultures with different languages, religions, culture, history and traditions. The Gypsies I was with this morning certainly have no time for Irish Travellers. They hated the programme as they felt they would be judged by the behaviour of the Irish which they considered shameful. One girl wouldn't go to school this morning as she knew all her gorja class mates will have watched it.
> 
> What My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding depicts is not typical and mostly does not feature Gypsies. Don't go thinking you've gained a real insight into Gypsy culture through watching this programme.




So, I'm a bit confused about it all now. These 'gypsies' featured on the show aren't gypsies at all, just travellers?? I'm sure they referred to themselves on at least one occasion as gypsies. What religion do the real Irish gypsies follow then?


----------



## Dan U (Jan 19, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> No self respecting New Age Traveller would have a ring made from purple tin. Gold can or nothing.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 19, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> So, I'm a bit confused about it all now. These 'gypsies' featured on the show aren't gypsies at all, just travellers?? I'm sure they referred to themselves on at least one occasion as gypsies. What religion do the real Irish gypsies follow then?


 
.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> So, I'm a bit confused about it all now. These 'gypsies' featured on the show aren't gypsies at all, just travellers?? I'm sure they referred to themselves on at least one occasion as gypsies. What religion do the real Irish gypsies follow then?


i believe ground elder is saying that if they are irish then they are travellers, not gypsies, not matter if they call themselves gypsies or whatever.... is that right?


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2011)

Gypsy refers to Romany travellers. Most of the people on the telly were Irish Travellers not Gypsies. Irish Travellers are usually Catholic.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> Gypsy refers to Romany travellers. Most of the people on the telly were Irish Travellers not Gypsies. Irish Travellers are usually Catholic.


i dunno who decides though, i mean they did call themselves gypsies in the programme last night.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

The prog had a mix of Irish travellers and English gypsies.


----------



## Griff (Jan 19, 2011)

_My Big Fat Irish Traveller Wedding _ doesn't have the same ring about it though, does it?


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> The prog had a mix of Irish travellers and English gypsies.


who were the english ones? hang on musn't it be "english traveller"??? why are only the ones from ireland called "travellers" not "gypsies"?


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2011)

Gypsies decide who can be called Gypsies and get very pissed off if anyone else tries to claim the title -be they are Irish or New Traveller. You can't become a Gypsy.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

The two girls were English gypsies. Cheyenne and Montana. They went to the Irish traveller wedding.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> The two girls were English gypsies. Cheyenne and Montana. They went to the Irish traveller wedding.


oh i thought they were just second generation irish so that was why they didn't have much of an accent. don't see why they are allowed to called gypsies when those from ireland aren't thouhg.


----------



## Griff (Jan 19, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> You can't become a Gypsy.



Even if you were born in the wagon of a travelling show? 

And yer momma would dance for the money they'd throw?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

They were Romany girls.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> They were Romany girls.


ahh right i do see now.


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2011)

It is very simple - Romany people arrived in this country about 500 years ago and were mistakenly thought to be from Egypt, hence the name Gypsy. Irish Travellers are a different people with their own separate history, language, traditions and so on.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

I loved the way Swanley's family refused to be on the show.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> It is very simple - Romany people arrived in this country about 500 years ago and were mistakenly thought to be from Egypt, hence the name Gypsy. Irish Travellers are a different people with their own separate history, language, traditions and so on.


 yes i do see now... but they do share camps, go to each others weddings etc though? so some of the lifestyle is shared... and would both groups probably mistrust outsiders (ie fixed home people) more than each other (itinerant)... would that be about true?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

The largest ethnic minority in Surrey is gypsy.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 19, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> The largest ethnic minority in Surrey is gypsy.


if was asked that in a pub quiz i would probably have got the answer wrong, but it doesn't really surprise me.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

Joe Jones, chair of the Gypsy Council, helped make the programme. He said it was entertainment.


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2011)

> but they do share camps, go to each others weddings etc though? so some of the lifestyle is shared... and would both groups probably mistrust outsiders (ie fixed home people) more than each other (itinerant)



Yes it is true that there is a cross-over, but generally Romany people don't get on with the Irish, tending to blame them for the negative public perception of all Gypsies and Travellers. Sharing sites is usually out of necessity rather than choice. In particular Irish Travellers do not have the strong traditions and taboos surrounding cleanliness that are central to Romany Gypsy life.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> In particular Irish Travellers do not have the strong traditions and taboos surrounding cleanliness that are central to Romany Gypsy life.


 
I was wondering about this. But the people in this show did seem particularly fond of cleanliness. Like with the girls all remaining pure virgins until marriage and this constant word 'dirty' coming up should they ever been associated with anyone out of wedlock. I couldn't work out if that was more metaphorical that literal though. I suspect both?

That, and the fact that they all seem quite happy to spend married life cleaning and housekeeping. Then there was Swanley, not even allowing the camera to look into his marital caravan, let alone enter (though I couldn't work out if that was just for privacy reasons).


----------



## radio_atomica (Jan 19, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> I was wondering about this. But the people in this show did seem particularly fond of cleanliness. Like with the girls all remaining pure virgins until marriage and this constant word 'dirty' coming up should they ever been associated with anyone out of wedlock. I couldn't work out if that was more metaphorical that literal though. I suspect both?
> 
> That, and the fact that they all seem quite happy to spend married life cleaning and housekeeping. Then there was Swanley, not even allowing the camera to look into his marital caravan, let alone enter (though I couldn't work out if that was just for privacy reasons).


 
Looked as thought it was because he didn't want them to film it before it was cleaned, due to being houseproud.  The narrator implied that it hadn't been cleaned because his fiance was on holiday and there was therefore nobody to do it.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm finding Groundy's attitude towards Irish travellers a bit racist. Can he be put on the list please?


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 19, 2011)

What list, the wedding list?

Perhaps a nice vase from Peter Jones, some Waterford crystal perhaps?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

The same list you're on.


----------



## Melinda (Jan 19, 2011)

Bagsy me on the list too. Seems exclusive.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 19, 2011)

Wouldn't trust Ern to write a shopping list.


----------



## Dandred (Jan 19, 2011)

Great show! 


Even greater thread!

Amazing weddings, I don't think even ugly and his bird middleton will even get close.


----------



## Dan U (Jan 19, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> The largest ethnic minority in Surrey is gypsy.


 
Source?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 19, 2011)

Dan U said:


> Source?


 
Traveller and Gypsy Heritage exhibition a few years ago.

(Apologies to all those who only live on the internet)


----------



## Dan U (Jan 19, 2011)

Well I guess they wouldn't show up in a census. Given the amount of sites, its kinda makes sense.

Eta - a quick Google suggest would need more than 10,000 so ??


----------



## feyr (Jan 19, 2011)

Dan U said:


> Well I guess they wouldn't show up in a census. Given the amount of sites, its kinda makes sense.
> 
> Eta - a quick Google suggest would need more than 10,000 so ??



"Gypsies and Travellers are widely thought to be the biggest ethnic minority in Surrey and the south-east is home to the second highest population of Gypsies and Travellers according to the Office of the Deputy Prime Ministers Bi-annual Caravan Count. Despite being recognised under British race relations legislation as separate ethnic minorities, English Gypsies and Irish Travellers are absent from the census and most forms of ethnic monitoring. But there is strong evidence that Gypsies and Travellers represent the largest ethnic minority in counties such as Kent, Hampshire and Surrey and are significant minorities in many other south-eastern counties."

from here- http://www.communityarchives.org.uk/page_id__596_path__0p3p69p.aspx


----------



## twentythreedom (Jan 19, 2011)

excellent programme. mental, those teenage girls wearing very little, gyrating and jiggling their bits, then the lads get all overcome by testosterone and do that "grabbing" shit, all cast against a background that emphasises the need for purity, chastity, cooking and cleaning... funny as fuck. 

i think the daily mail, if it could look beyond its standard bigotry, could actually champion the travellers as guardians of the moral future of middle england.


----------



## aqua (Jan 19, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> Sharing sites is usually out of necessity rather than choice.


certainly the travellers I went to school with had no choice who was on their site

I enjoy this programme but it doesn't reflect the travellers/gypsies I knew and have worked with. Hoping the next few episodes expands on other aspects of life  find the dresses just insane though


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2011)

The next census will include Gypsy/Roma and Irish Traveller as ethnic categories for the first time. The twice yearly Caravan Count is a notoriously poor method of estimating Gypsy and Traveller numbers. The Local Authorities who carry out the count have a vested interest in under-counting and their commitment to a thorough count varies. Housed Gypsies and Traveller are not counted. Other population data has come from Traveller Education Services and the Accommodation Assessments carried out as a duty under the Housing Act 2004. Many Gypsies and Travellers choose not to identify themselves to public bodies out of a justified fear of prejudice.

Some of my best friends are Irish Travellers.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jan 19, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> Some of my best friends are Irish Travellers.


----------



## sim667 (Jan 21, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> Yes it is true that there is a cross-over, but generally Romany people don't get on with the Irish, tending to blame them for the negative public perception of all Gypsies and Travellers. Sharing sites is usually out of necessity rather than choice. In particular Irish Travellers do not have the strong traditions and taboos surrounding cleanliness that are central to Romany Gypsy life.


 
My ex was descended from romany's but her uncle still practiced.... He wasn't keen on the irish travellers at all.

He still had a wooden caravan, beautiful thing that was/is.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 21, 2011)

is it the irish travellers where the men all look super-tough and the kids also seem like they are super hard?


----------



## waylon (Jan 23, 2011)

aqua said:


> I enjoy this programme but it doesn't reflect the travellers/gypsies I knew and have worked with. Hoping the next few episodes expands on other aspects of life  find the dresses just insane though



This - But the travellers I know are settled, living in houses n that.


----------



## Part 2 (Jan 23, 2011)

I'm pretty sure there's someone on the boards who from gypsy stock come to think of it. Can't recall who it was posted on one of the many threads.


----------



## radio_atomica (Jan 23, 2011)

Chip Barm said:


> I'm pretty sure there's someone on the boards who from gypsy stock come to think of it. Can't recall who it was posted on one of the many threads.


 
I think they've posted on this one.


----------



## Santino (Jan 26, 2011)

It's always better to make your own gypsy stock rather than use a cube.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 26, 2011)

Finally seen the first episode. I'm in two minds about this program.

On the one hand its showing a human side to these communities which certain people need to see. Its easy to be intolerant from a basis of ignorance and when you don't see a group in real human terms.

You could make a programe about travellers showing them in just this light alone but only enlightened people would bother to watch it. It won't reach the audience you want to change.

By firstly putting the hook in that they are going to mock them in some way (their stupid dresses etc.) it gets those particular people to watch and then hopefully learn something when you show the evictions and stuff as well.

On the other hand they *are* taking the piss out of their traditions n stuff. Which has by all accounts be upsetting the travellers over how they've been represented.

I found myself liking the groom. He seemed a decent bloke.
Also the woman standing up for the protestor gets a big thumbs up from me. Showing compassion and empathy for the protestor in her own time of stress. She showed real humanity against the souless sharks.

On the whole I think its showing quite a balanced view of both sides of the fence. Its just unfortunate that its used a marketing strategy of 'hey look at the silly gypsies' to get people to watch.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 26, 2011)

Chip Barm said:


> I'm pretty sure there's someone on the boards who from gypsy stock come to think of it. Can't recall who it was posted on one of the many threads.


 
There is one poster who has never been shy of stating their former traveller background. Its not for me to say who they are though as they are quite capeable of doing so themselves should they wish.


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 26, 2011)

Gromit said:


> Finally seen the first episode. I'm in two minds about this program.
> 
> On the one hand its showing a human side to these communities which certain people need to see. Its easy to be intolerant from a basis of ignorance and when you don't see a group in real human terms.
> 
> ...


The Gypsies I've talked to main objection to the programme is its failure to make clear that what it depicts is far from universal amongst Gypsies and Travellers. There is concern that all it has done is add a new stereotype for Gypsies and Travellers to contend with.

The programme makers didn't have the cooperation of the wider Gypsy and Traveller communities. This is demonstrated by the fact they relied heavily on the (non-Traveller) dress maker to fill in the details. The commentary showed bias and used out of date statistics suggesting it had been poorly researched.

There was a much better series of three programmes shown on, I think, BBC3 a few years ago called Gypsy Wars, but as Gromit suggests only enlightened people like me bothered to watch it


----------



## Gromit (Jan 26, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> The programme makers didn't have the cooperation of the wider Gypsy and Traveller communities.


 
In this programme the impression we were given is that no one is ever going to get that cooperation from the wider Gypsy and Traveller communities due to issolationist beliefs.

I don't know how true that assertion was or whether it was the programme makers making excuses.

I bet Ross Kemp could get them to open up though.


----------



## Melinda (Jan 26, 2011)

Next week's show is focussed on the role of Traveller women. 

I hope there is more depth to it, because the 'behave like Cinderella/ dance like Madonna' story so far is so thin as to be scandalous.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 26, 2011)

The only men I've seen turn up to buy a wedding van and again on the wedding day. Even that Catholic ceremony thing and after party seemed entirely female.


----------



## Santino (Jan 26, 2011)

No one consults my wider community if they make a documentary about people like me.

Not that it isn't pretty lazy film-making anyway.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 26, 2011)

This groundy chap really has tickets on himself.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 26, 2011)

Sorry my other thought about the programme.

Is there really a market for Monster truck limos?!!!!!

I was aghast that such a thing exists.
If he liked it and it made his day more special then I'm happy for him... ... but really? With a stripper's pole too? Mmmm classy!

Monster trucks are for the mindless destruction of other autos (and maybe running over nazis). Period! Not for ferrying people around.


----------



## Ground Elder (Jan 26, 2011)

Gromit said:


> In this programme the impression we were given is that no one is ever going to get that cooperation from the wider Gypsy and Traveller communities due to issolationist beliefs.
> 
> I don't know how true that assertion was or whether it was the programme makers making excuses.


There's an increasing awareness by Gypsies and Travellers of the need to engage with the media to dispel myths, stereotypes and prejudice. It is one of the reasons they are so frustrated by My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding as it is seen as a missed opportunity to demonstrate the positive aspects of Gypsy and Traveller life.


----------



## toggle (Jan 26, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> This groundy chap really has tickets on himself.


 
ah. 

well, someone who knows what they are talking about and dosen't aggree with you seemms to always piss you off no end. 

well done ground elder.


----------



## kained&able (Jan 26, 2011)

it wasn't a monster truck it was clearly a big rig. Trade and standards will be onto the company.

dave


----------



## TruXta (Jan 26, 2011)

kained&able said:


> it wasn't a monster truck it was clearly a big rig. Trade and standards will be onto the company.
> 
> dave


 
Damn right!


----------



## joustmaster (Jan 26, 2011)

cracking tv


----------



## Melinda (Jan 26, 2011)

Its Victorians checking out naked Hottentot ladies in an exhibit.


----------



## zoooo (Jan 26, 2011)

I would consider a proper monster truck to arrive at my wedding in. Not one with a pole though.#

I thought the little boy on last night's was very sweet . (The one watching the destruction of the camp over a wall.)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 26, 2011)

kained&able said:


> it wasn't a monster truck it was clearly a big rig. Trade and standards will be onto the company.
> 
> dave



Trading standards will be on to you.



And I would love to be ferried around in that truck.

And wholly agree that a dress ain't a dress until it comes with a fire extinguisher.


----------



## Part 2 (Jan 26, 2011)

Santino said:


> It's always better to make your own gypsy stock rather than use a cube.



I realised after it was a bit of a shit word to use I was thinking aloud rather than expecting someone to out the poster.

Just watched part 2. I liked Patrick, he looked to be a good bloke, would've been good to hear from his parents I thought. The girl's Mum was more than anyone on the series so far.

Also liked Jerry, the 12 year old kid, seemed a very insightful and articulate lad.

I don't like the scouse dressmaker, fucking irritating she is.


----------



## Melinda (Jan 26, 2011)

Im laughing because the non traveller mum of the bride really was proper horrifying! 

I dont mind the dress maker- she's discreet.


----------



## May Kasahara (Jan 26, 2011)

Melinda said:


> Im laughing because the non traveller mum of the bride really was proper horrifying!


 
She looked like a negative


----------



## zoooo (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm thinking/hoping she'll see herself on screen, and suddenly realise her skin is so brown it's purple, and her lipstick grey and snap out of it.


----------



## Melinda (Jan 26, 2011)

May Kasahara said:


> She looked like a negative


I just saw your name and yelped with joy!!  Hey my sweet  

Im *still* laughing at that woman!


----------



## likesfish (Jan 26, 2011)

tbf if a traveller wedding goes wrong it goes horribly horribly wrong
  there  was one in northan  ireland where they used chinooks to ferry troops into stop the mayhem


----------



## madamv (Jan 26, 2011)

May Kasahara said:


> She looked like a negative


 
Ha!  Brilliant!  So true!


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 27, 2011)

likesfish said:


> tbf if a traveller wedding goes wrong it goes horribly horribly wrong
> there  was one in northan  ireland where they used chinooks to ferry troops into stop the mayhem


 cool, have you got a link to the news report!


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 27, 2011)

I've only just twigged, this show is actually about monster dresses isn't it? 'Monster dresses and the women that drive them'.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 27, 2011)

Monster truck big rig dresses on acid.


----------



## Space Girl (Jan 28, 2011)

my OH is a didicoy - with his mum being Romany and his dad being Irish (not an Irish traveller himself but from Irish traveller decent) - makes for a weird look I can tell you ;-) and thankfully he does not want marry me so no big frock for moi!


----------



## Santino (Jan 28, 2011)

We had to read that damn Diddakoi book at school.


----------



## N_igma (Jan 28, 2011)

How many people actually know travellers? (not romany). The travellers I know drink, take drugs, have sex outside marriage, mingle with non-gypsies and will kick the flying fuck out of you if you get on the wrong side of them! This show romanticises the fuck out of them and I think they play up to the cameras!


----------



## twentythreedom (Jan 28, 2011)

pikeys, lol. good on 'em, i say. they are the new middle england.


----------



## N_igma (Jan 28, 2011)

twentythreedom said:


> pikeys, lol. good on 'em, i say. they are the new middle england.


 
The English ones must have been tamed by the inferior English gene. Proper Irish gypos will kill ya!


----------



## grit (Jan 28, 2011)

N_igma said:


> The English ones must have been tamed by the inferior English gene. Proper Irish gypos will kill ya!


 
They are certainly far better spoken then the ones at home.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jan 28, 2011)

N_igma said:


> The English ones must have been tamed by the inferior English gene. Proper Irish gypos will kill ya!



exactly. no cross-breeding required, middle england is saved. yay!


----------



## girasol (Feb 2, 2011)

Isn't it illegal to deprive children of basic education?  That poor 12 year-old girl didn't look like she wanted to be taken out of school to clean, cook and look after her siblings!!!!!!!!


----------



## gabi (Feb 2, 2011)

I think the dressmaker explained that one - the parents feed the schools lies about the kids moving back to ireland.

fucked up. very fucked up. i know theres selective editing going on with this prog but even that cant excuse what a misogynist community this is.


----------



## girasol (Feb 2, 2011)

ah, must have got distracted and missed that bit...  I am now really finding it hard to sympathise with their way of living - I know I'd go insane living like that, even if I had been trained to think that was all that life had to offer...  It's not like they don't watch tv/movies, so they know there's more to life than looking after husband/family.  Their double standards are insane  

It's not like they are some unspoiled tribe where the men go hunting and the women stay back preparing the food.  It's something else altogether...  It's totally opressive of women in the worse possible way, by depriving them of an education and choice.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 2, 2011)

zoooo said:


> I thought the little boy on last night's was very sweet . (The one watching the destruction of the camp over a wall.)


 
He actually brought a tear to my eye. Him talking (very articulately too) about the destruction of his home summed up the problem that many travellers face in living peacefully as travellers in Britain today. For me, it was the best bit of the series so far. A brief moment of reality away from gaudy dresses and 8 year olds getting spray tans.

I'm still not sure about this show. One one level it is a rare insight into some aspects of traveller life, but the show does seem to have an agenda to focus on the 'outrageous' aspects of traveller life rather than offer a more in-depth look at a society constantly under threat. I dunno. It is oddly addictive viewing though. Apparently it has got Channel 4's highest ratings since Big Brother in 2008. It has clearly tapped into an large area of interest.


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 2, 2011)

> Apparently it has got Channel 4's highest ratings since Big Brother in 2008. It has clearly tapped into an large area of interest.



That's because it's a freak show.


----------



## keithy (Feb 2, 2011)

Last night's really annoyed me. Made out like they were going to give some kind of insight into the life of a traveller woman and really it just showed us what we've already seen in the program so far. In the process of painting this "oh, traveller women are second class citizens" picture the program completely failed to actually give the women a voice. 

This is a series stemming from a one-off last year iirc, and I now don't really know why they need to make a series of it when they're just showing the same shit over and over. It's doing my head in a bit actually because it's not even showing a variety of different travellers and gypsies, and is probably just creating more stereotypes and negativity for them. I mean, it hasn't actually touched on simple things as their values, because it is just all assumptions and none of the travellers have spoken explicitly about the values in their culture. We hear about the old fashioned values but this is just assumption based on the fact that there are house-wives and no sex before marriage. 

Pil;e of wank.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 2, 2011)

kyser_soze said:


> That's because it's a freak show.


 
True, but much of Channel 4's 'documentary' output is freak show tv. This one particularly has gotten massive ratings unlike any other.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 2, 2011)

How long does it take to clean a modern caravan anyway? You're done in half an hour surely.


----------



## keithy (Feb 2, 2011)

I think part of the culture - which hasn't even been covered in this program - is certain rituals of cleanliness.


----------



## girasol (Feb 2, 2011)

keithy said:


> Last night's really annoyed me. Made out like they were going to give some kind of insight into the life of a traveller woman and really it just showed us what we've already seen in the program so far. In the process of painting this "oh, traveller women are second class citizens" picture the program completely failed to actually give the women a voice.
> 
> This is a series stemming from a one-off last year iirc, and I now don't really know why they need to make a series of it when they're just showing the same shit over and over. It's doing my head in a bit actually because it's not even showing a variety of different travellers and gypsies, and is probably just creating more stereotypes and negativity for them. I mean, it hasn't actually touched on simple things as their values, because it is just all assumptions and none of the travellers have spoken explicitly about the values in their culture. We hear about the old fashioned values but this is just assumption based on the fact that there are house-wives and no sex before marriage.
> 
> Pil;e of wank.


 
Yes, the are certainly reinforcing stereotypes, I really hoped they'd show something that would challenge those views instead, but I guess that doesn't make for good viewing!  No wonder some of them refused to take part.  Probably the ones who understand which aspect would be picked on.

But some of those things, they do really happen!!!  The girl being taken out of school, that certainly wasn't made up or taken out of context.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 2, 2011)

kyser_soze said:


> That's because it's a freak show.


 
Just like Big Brother then.



keithy said:


> the program completely failed to actually give the women a voice.


 
I would have liked to have heard the girls views on being 'grabbed' which was curiously absent.

I want to know whether they tried to but the girls were afraid to critise an element of gypsy culture openly for fear of reprisals. 

Or because the girls stating openly that it was horrible and invasive would escalate the issue more than the producers wanted. Seeing as they are trying to make it all a fun poke at another culture. When its far from a fun poke really.


----------



## keithy (Feb 2, 2011)

Yeah they still happen but I still don't feel in any position to be able to form an opinion on gypsie/traveller culture/way of life based on it. 

It was interesting when the traveller lad was asked if he thought the girls enjoyed being grabbed and he said no, he couldn't imagine they would. I wanted then to know why he still did it. Obviously we're unlikely to get some kind of full explanation but I'd like to delve a little bit deeper iyswim? The kid said about grabbing not being understood etc, and I just wanted to know his actual thoughts and feelings about it. Not "oh it's just the way it is", because actually a lot of the young travellers they talk to seem intelligent enough to be able to think about it a little more than that.

I dunno. It could be that the program makers did try to do that and they couldn't because everyone was secretive. I don't think so though.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 2, 2011)

girasol said:


> It's totally opressive of women in the worse possible way, by depriving them of an education and choice.


 
Can i point out that the women weren't the only ones missing out on education and choice. All the boys at the paintballing couldn't read either.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 2, 2011)

How do they manage to have drivers licenses with no reading or writing skills?


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 2, 2011)

> I wanted then to know why he still did it.



Because he can. He's doing what anyone given license to behave in pretty much whatever way they please would do.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 2, 2011)

keithy said:


> I wanted then to know why he still did it.


 
That was kind of covered earlier when the boys stated earlier that if a guy went to that fair and didn't try a grab then its considered that there is something wrong with you. I guessed they were implying that everyone would think you were gay if you didn't do a grab.

That would be an interesting thing to explore. How homosexuality is treated in these comunities. Quite badly I'm guessing.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 2, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> How do they manage to have drivers licenses with no reading or writing skills?


 
Praps they don't.

Or they pay someone to take the test for them.

Or they undertake the test in special conditions the same way that people with dyslexia do.

Someone must have to teach them the highway code verbally i guess but aside from that you don't need to know how to read to drive. Road signs are pictorial after all.


----------



## girasol (Feb 2, 2011)

If the are leaving school at 12 they will have basic reading/writing skills - at least enough to get a driving license, I should imagine.  The schooling system isn't that bad, seriously!


----------



## Gromit (Feb 2, 2011)

girasol said:


> If the are leaving school at 12 they will have basic reading/writing skills - at least enough to get a driving license, I should imagine.  The schooling system isn't that bad, seriously!


 
Then how come schools are missing their literacy targets?

Almost one in five seven-year-olds in England did not reach government targets for literacy last year.


----------



## Griff (Feb 2, 2011)

keithy said:


> I think part of the culture - which hasn't even been covered in this program - is certain rituals of cleanliness.



What the levels of cleanliness they leave sites in?  Yeah, that hasn't been covered.


----------



## girasol (Feb 2, 2011)

Gromit said:


> Then how come schools are missing their literacy targets?
> 
> Almost one in five seven-year-olds in England did not reach government targets for literacy last year.



http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/research/nlt_research/2364_literacy_state_of_the_nation

"The number of children achieving the expected levels for reading at age eleven increased from 78% in 1999 to 86% in 2009"

But also:
One in six people in the UK struggle with literacy. This means their literacy is below the level expected of an eleven year old (I assume these people went to school before intervening measures were introduced?)

So plenty of room for improvement!

Still, to pass a driving test, you need to be able to read road signs and answer multiple choice questions, no need to be able to write at an advanced level, and basic reading skills should be enough.

And also: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate


----------



## Part 2 (Feb 2, 2011)

Gromit said:


> Can i point out that the women weren't the only ones missing out on education and choice. All the boys at the paintballing couldn't read either.


 
All the gypsies at my school left when they were 12/13, boys and girls. Girls to the cleaning, boys to the tarmac/scrap.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Feb 2, 2011)

N_igma said:


> How many people actually know travellers? (not romany). The travellers I know drink, take drugs, have sex outside marriage, mingle with non-gypsies and will kick the flying fuck out of you if you get on the wrong side of them! This show romanticises the fuck out of them and I think they play up to the cameras!



I know quite a few - four of my marina neighbours are from Irish traveller families (which in itself is unusual) - the marina was built on the site of a travellers site.  I think they guessed if they got boats they'd be left alone alot more. They're right. They all smoke weed and drink and one is divorced.

Oh and my ex husband is half Roma gypsy.

I've not seen the show, BTW so I can't comment, only that it sounds like a freakshow.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 2, 2011)

I very much tried to keep an open mind but the 'grabbing' tipped me over the edge.


----------



## Grandma Death (Feb 2, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> I very much tried to keep an open mind but the 'grabbing' tipped me over the edge.


 

Yep me too. Up to this weeks episode I had a very open mind...I found this weeks episode quite distressing to watch.


----------



## pennimania (Feb 2, 2011)

Grandma Death said:


> Yep me too. Up to this weeks episode I had a very open mind...I found this weeks episode quite distressing to watch.



And me - and my grandfather (who I nerver met) was a traveller.

It seems to me that all these young women get is a silly big dress and a tacky cake - not even a very nice reception - not that I care about stuff like that. I don't believe they want to be 'princess for a day' but none dare say otherwise 

otherwise they are drudges and not even that happy with it tbh. I want to know why the mothers (who are mostly still quite young) can't look after their own children? Why are the 12 year old daughters having to do it? What are the mothers doing?

I would rather be hung, drawn and quartered than have my girl go down that path 

men will always take the line of least resistance. Why should they not?  It's up to the older women imo to get a grip.


----------



## Espresso (Feb 2, 2011)

pennimania said:


> I want to know why the mothers (who are mostly still quite young) can't look after their own children? Why are the 12 year old daughters having to do it? What are the mothers doing?


That's the thing that baffled me. 
If you are sixteen when you get wed, you've spent the last four years cleaning your parents' trailer and looking after your siblings. Then you get the big frock, a WHOLE DAY OFF from doing your mother's work then it's home to home to your own trailer, hoping your first born is a girl - followed by _at least_ another four or five girls - so you know you've only got 12 more years before you can palm off all your cleaning and child rearing onto that first poor child.


----------



## zoooo (Feb 2, 2011)

That was confusing me massively too. Why was the 13 year old doing all the cleaning and getting her younger siblings ready for school, etc?
I just assumed I'd missed a bit where they told us her mother was dead or something, but maybe not...


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 2, 2011)

We were also wondering where the mother was.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 2, 2011)

There's an interview here on Daybreak (sorry) with Jake Bowers from Travellers Times website who's not happy with the way the Irish Traveller / Roma Gypsy thing has been confused in this show.

http://www.itv.com/daybreak/entertainment/tv/gypsyweddings/


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 3, 2011)

How do gypsies pass their driving test? 
So most of em cant read or write.

and the theory is 40 questions that are written down about driving.

and there's loads of pikeys driving transits.


----------



## Serotonin (Feb 3, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> and there's loads of pikeys driving transits.


 
Nice


----------



## girasol (Feb 3, 2011)

Gromit said:


> Can i point out that the women weren't the only ones missing out on education and choice. All the boys at the paintballing couldn't read either.


 


Chip Barm said:


> All the gypsies at my school left when they were 12/13, boys and girls. Girls to the cleaning, boys to the tarmac/scrap.



Sorry, I meant to reply to this, just to say that's messed up too   But even so, the boys seem to have a lot more freedom than the girls.  Even if the freedom is limited to drinking, doing manual labour, going out...

I still think that taking away their education is the biggest crime of all   Ok, schools aren't perfect, but no school at all is an injustice to their future.  If they educate their children, they might be able to represent themselves and defent their rights more effectively, for starters.

e2a:  But as more of them are moving into 'normal housing', I wonder if more are being kept in school?  They are being forced to abandon their traditional way of life to become more like 'conventional citizens', and we are being shown what very little there is left.  Somehow, that doesn't also strike me as being a great thing...  

On a previous programme someone described how difficult it was for them to adapt to indoor living, that their way of living outdoors, as part of a very close community, was something they treasured and were very sad to lose.


----------



## Melinda (Feb 3, 2011)

I know its a freak show; as I said last week, we are the Victorians starring at Hottentots and exclaiming about how odd they are. 

However, I can put in as many caveats about editing and stereotyping as would please even the most ardent liberal on here, but Im another one who found last night's episode a profoundly distressing watch. 

Had this show been following Afghan or rural Pakistani girls who were being deliberately denied an education in order to keep them reliant on their fathers and husbands, let alone facing the kind of beatings and abuse talked about last night- 
there would be less hedging regarding language and less of the cultural relativism.


----------



## pennimania (Feb 3, 2011)

Melinda said:


> I know its a freak show; as I said last week, we are the Victorians starring at Hottentots and exclaiming about how odd they are.
> 
> However, I can put in as many caveats about editing and stereotyping as would please even the most ardent liberal on here, but Im another one who found last night's episode a profoundly distressing watch.
> 
> ...



I disagree.

I would be much less ready to pass judgement on people living outside the UK where education is harder to come by for EVERYONE.

The people shown on the programme live here.


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 3, 2011)

I'm happy to pass judgement on any culture that eschews education and literacy.


----------



## ernestolynch (Feb 3, 2011)

Racists


----------



## Santino (Feb 3, 2011)

Bless


----------



## ernestolynch (Feb 3, 2011)

You


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 3, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Racists


 
They'd hate you, with your learning and egalitarian urges.


----------



## zoooo (Feb 3, 2011)

girasol said:


> I still think that taking away their education is the biggest crime of all   Ok, schools aren't perfect, but no school at all is an injustice to their future.  If they educate their children, they might be able to represent themselves and defent their rights more effectively, for starters.


 
Extremely good point. You'd think they'd want to raise a few lawyers.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 3, 2011)

Melinda said:


> Had this show been following Afghan or rural Pakistani girls who were being deliberately denied an education in order to keep them reliant on their fathers and husbands, let alone facing the kind of beatings and abuse talked about last night-
> there would be less hedging regarding language and less of the cultural relativism.


 
I'll point this out for the second time shall i....

It was not a case of girls being deprived the same education as boys. The boys were just as uneducated.

I think it was more of a mechanism to keep future generations (both sexes) within the community by limiting their options and aspirations rather than specifically to keep their women shackled.

Not that we weren't shown cultural mechanisms specifically designed to shackle their women and I'm not saying that the lack of education doesn't aid and combine with these.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 3, 2011)

zoooo said:


> Extremely good point. You'd think they'd want to raise a few lawyers.


 
They do raise a few.


----------



## Melinda (Feb 3, 2011)

Gromit said:


> I'll point this out for the second time shall i....
> 
> It was not a case of girls being deprived the same education as boys. The boys were just as uneducated.
> 
> ...



With what authority are you speaking? You can stamp your feet and insist on anything you like, it doesn't make you correct.


Its clear that in order to protect itself the communities we saw had turned inward. They aren't the only culture which strives to bind its young people to traditions and culture through restricting freedom. 

*However, illiteracy is too high a price to pay for conformity and community cohesion. Its indefensible. *

And was also clear that that the women and girls featured were disproportionately disadvantaged by being being denied at least a secondary education. The boys were still able to go out over night, to drink, to travel, to work and to live as they pleased. 

The mothers, sisters and wives featured were bound to their homesteads by family responsibility, duty, culture, taboo and illiteracy. Denying them an education denies them the chance to earn their own living and to support themselves, keeping them dependent on the men in their lives. The girl with the job in the bakers said as much herself.


----------



## zoooo (Feb 3, 2011)

Gromit said:


> They do raise a few.



Well I meant the ones in the show. But good to know there are some elsewhere.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 3, 2011)

Melinda said:


> With what authority are you speaking? You can stamp your feet and insist on anything you like, it doesn't make you correct.



With exactly the same authority as you. At the level that doesn't excuse you from ignoring that both boys and girls were denied education cause it conveniently allows you sympathise more with the girls rather than both (as far as education is concerned).



Melinda said:


> Its clear that in order to protect itself the communities we saw had turned inward. They aren't the only culture which strives to bind its young people to traditions and culture through restricting freedom.


 agreed



Melinda said:


> *However, illiteracy is too high a price to pay for conformity and community cohesion. Its indefensible. *


 still very much agreed




Melinda said:


> And was also clear that that the women and girls featured were disproportionately disadvantaged by being being denied at least a secondary education.


 Not clear to me how that disproportionate disadvantage was due to specifically education and not other factors Seeing as the boys were being just as denied in that area.



Melinda said:


> The boys were still able to go out over night, to drink, to travel, to work and to live as they pleased.


 you and i are discussing education, whats the relevance of this sentence please?



Melinda said:


> The mothers, sisters and wives featured were bound to their homesteads by family responsibility, duty, culture, taboo and illiteracy. Denying them an education denies them the chance to earn their own living and to support themselves, keeping them dependent on the men in their lives. The girl with the job in the bakers said as much herself.


 
I wouldn't say deny. Plenty of women support themselves (and children) independently via menial jobs. Some even with no job at all (benefits). We even had an example of such in the episode. An example to us all.

Limit is the term i used before and limit is still the term that fits the most in my opinion.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 3, 2011)

zoooo said:


> Well I meant the ones in the show. But good to know there are some elsewhere.


 
Yep. Many are experts in how to stall the authorities from shifting travellers from sites.

Its often a good idea to employ someone sympathetic rather than some Oxford nob for such battles.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 3, 2011)

Gromit said:


> you and i are discussing education, whats the relevance of this sentence please?



Education, life skills, achievement, a sense of 'freedom' and fulfillment etc are not only acquired through formal education.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 3, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Education, life skills, achievement, a sense of 'freedom' and fulfillment etc are not only acquired through formal education.


 
Thanks. Okay I can accept thats relevant now. Hadn't thought of it that way.


----------



## Melinda (Feb 3, 2011)

Gromit said:


> With exactly the same authority as you.


So you were being unnecessarily condescending when you had no more right than anyone else.



> At the level that doesn't excuse you from ignoring that both boys and girls were denied education cause it conveniently allows you sympathise more with the girls rather than both (as far as education is concerned).


The theme of the episode was the role of women and girls in this community. 
Ive explained clearly why I think these women are disproportionately disadvantaged by the denial of education. 
Their culture (as portrayed last night) is strictly patriarchal and it ensures that boys are still allowed to go out, earn a living and live full lives despite their educational disadvantage. 
The girls are not. 

Even if they chose to leave the community to earn a living they would be poorly equipped.

At no stage have I said its ok that the boys cant read.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 3, 2011)

Melinda said:


> At no stage have I said its ok that the boys cant read.


 
Nope but you were being sexist by ignoring it and focusing solely on the girls. The sort of thing I've gotten picked up on before (quite rightly) so I might as well pick you up on it (if thats the done thing as it seems to be).

Anyhow I'll stop being combative now. I promised earlier in the year i would be less so and so sorry.


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 3, 2011)

I don't think I've ever taught a traveller girl after the first year of secondary - though I've had a few in my class up til then. I have taught traveller boys later, but I can think of only one family where those boys sat their GCSEs (though their sister didn't iirc).  In my limited experience boys tended to leave school around 2 years later than girls.  But then attendance up until that point is very poor.  Traveller families are allowed a certain number of extra days off school by law, so that they can attend horse fairs etc - but really attendance tends to be worse than that, and prohibits progress at the same rate as other students.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 3, 2011)

Gromit said:


> Nope but you were being sexist by ignoring it and focusing solely on the girls.



Hold on....Melinda made a comparason...one which you agreed was valid when I expanded on the point she made.




			
				melinda said:
			
		

> The boys were still able to go out over night, to drink, to travel, to work and to live as they pleased.






			
				Gromit said:
			
		

> you and i are discussing education, whats the relevance of this sentence please?






			
				Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Education, life skills, achievement, a sense of 'freedom' and fulfillment etc are not only acquired through formal education.






			
				Gromit said:
			
		

> Thanks. Okay I can accept thats relevant now. Hadn't thought of it that way.



You agree with the point/comparason but it is sexist? Does that mean you and I are sexist too because we think the point made is relevant/valid?


----------



## likesfish (Feb 5, 2011)

did seem rather shite deal.
 lack of education massivly impacts on fife expectancty travellers don't tend to pick up pensions


----------



## miss direct (Feb 5, 2011)

Just for the record, I know people can take the driving theory test in other languages - in which case, the questions are read out orally - I'm sure people who can't read in English are also capable of listening to the questions and only basic reading skills would be needed to do a multiple choice thing - many of which are numbers in any case.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Feb 5, 2011)

likesfish said:


> did seem rather shite deal.
> lack of education massivly impacts on fife expectancty travellers don't tend to pick up pensions



We had a couple living in a trailer here when we first moved here.  He dropped dead only 42 years old.  The other two blokes here are not in great health either.  It's so grim, really.  I've two friends who have been youth workers with travellers for years, they just say how draining it is, it's really depressing, no education means the only way to earn money is to turn to crime. They're probably the most despised group of people in the UK.  My dad always says, he's as left wing as they come until it comes to travellers.  I don't think he quite beleives that we get on and they've not ripped us off or anything.  I'm not going to romanticise it either, the amount of trouble they can attract.  We once had 40 people show up from some site with crowbars and rottweilers to seize a trailer that belonged to another (recently deceased) traveller neighbour.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 5, 2011)

Serotonin said:


> Nice


you can stick it up your fat hairy arse.

i'm proud to be a pikey


----------



## Gromit (Feb 9, 2011)

Last night I was like "hey! I recognise that Paddy. That can't be possible that i know him is it?"

I'd seen him on "Danny Dyer’s Deadliest Men 2" I realised after a bit.

The only one I'd ever seen I feel obliged to add. Danny Dyer followed him around like a puppy with his tongue firmly up his arse for the whole episode.

They showed the full horror of inside of his house. Decorated like a brothel it was. 

On Gypsy weddings I notice that they kept the cemeras at certain angles to make the place look as tasteful as possible. Seriously you need to see Danny Dyer's programme to see what his house is really like. Hideous beyond belief. Danny Dyer is there with no sarcasm telling Paddy what a gorgeous palace of a place it is.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 9, 2011)

Ah, thought the cunt looked familiar.

70 god children. Real life pikey godfather.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 9, 2011)

hadn't seen this for a few episodes.... was still pretty much the same story wasn't it? the bit with the bare knuckle fight was good tho, it confirmed my thought that the men are nails. BAM that first punch! i question how "fair" the fight was tho like they kept saying, if one of the guys was allowed to pretty much knock out the other before the fight had officially started.


----------



## electroplated (Feb 9, 2011)

Gromit said:


> Last night I was like "hey! I recognise that Paddy. That can't be possible that i know him is it?"
> 
> I'd seen him on "Danny Dyer’s Deadliest Men 2" I realised after a bit.
> 
> ...



Nice one - just found it on youtube


----------



## DRINK? (Feb 9, 2011)

do all gypsy women have massive boobs or are Channel 4 only interested in buxom types


----------



## tommers (Feb 9, 2011)

rutabowa said:


> hadn't seen this for a few episodes.... was still pretty much the same story wasn't it? the bit with the bare knuckle fight was good tho, it confirmed my thought that the men are nails. BAM that first punch! i question how "fair" the fight was tho like they kept saying, if one of the guys was allowed to pretty much knock out the other before the fight had officially started.



That was a different fella that he hit, wasn't it?


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 9, 2011)

tommers said:


> That was a different fella that he hit, wasn't it?


was it, i thought it was the same guy he ended up fighting? anyway, that one first punch looked deadly, BAM!! straight on to the floor. it was a sucker punch tho so not really fair if it was the guy he was meant to be fighting "fairly" though.


----------



## London_Calling (Feb 9, 2011)

Next week looks interesting.


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 9, 2011)

electroplated said:


> Nice one - just found it on youtube




I tried watching that, but DDs voice made me stop.


----------



## Part 2 (Feb 10, 2011)

Paddy's just setting himself up as the celebrity gypsy. He comes across quite well I think but whenever the similar Salford folk have done the same it's turned out badly in the end. Here he is looking a tad younger...



As for the fighting I'm no boxing expert but a mate at work who's had a few fights claims the gypsies are technically poor and don't generally make good fighters. The stance is like something from a victorian fairground. Witness the disaster that is Tyson Fury......although his Dad is obviously a bit hard.

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve..._out_after_12_year_grudge_over_bottle_of_beer


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 10, 2011)

i'm not talking about the being technically good at winning a boxing match, i'm talking about them being able slaughter anyone else in a street fight. POW!


----------



## Gromit (Feb 10, 2011)

It turned out that the sweet-talking, tattoo-sporting pikey... 
...was a gypsy bare-knuckle boxing champion. 
Which makes him harder than a coffin nail. 
Right now that's the last thing on Tommy's mind.


----------



## twentythreedom (Feb 10, 2011)

this one looks like it's gonna be a goodie!


----------



## Giles (Feb 10, 2011)

I can't help thinking that, as with certain other religious and ethnic "traditional lifestyles", you're bound to find the blokes wanting to keep things as they are: they get to rule the roost, keep "their woman" at home, looking after their men, knowing their place, etc etc. While they get to do all the exciting and manly stuff like fighting, drinking, gambling, showing off, driving like nutters, shagging around, making money sometimes from fairly dodgy sources, whatever.

If any bloke without the "protection" of a "traditional culture" to hide behind, expressed the same attitudes and behaved in the same way towards his wife / daughters / women in general, he would be generally disapproved of, and considered an anchronism and a neanderthal.

Giles..


----------



## Wookey (Feb 11, 2011)

I was speaking to my mate last night who works in children's services for the local council, closely with a traveller liaison officer who tries to guide the traveller kids through some sort of education. This week he was distributing laptops to families, because if the kids have laptops they can do homework, and secondarily it could get the parents interested (they currently aren't at all apparantly).

My friend lamented the programme's depiction of girls and their educational futures, but essentially said it would be almost kinder not to educate them at all past a certain age, because what they did learn would only make them unhappy in their inevitable choice to marry and clean a house and cook. That seems like abandonment to me, like complete ignorance is better than partial, unfulfilled awareness - when surely any kind of awareness, no matter how unfulfilled, is better than none?


----------



## Utopia (Feb 11, 2011)

For those of you who missed this from '95, here's a brilliant Shane meadows short film King of the gypsies -  throws different light on the Gypsy debate!


----------



## kyser_soze (Feb 11, 2011)

Wookey said:


> I was speaking to my mate last night who works in children's services for the local council, closely with a traveller liaison officer who tries to guide the traveller kids through some sort of education. This week he was distributing laptops to families, because if the kids have laptops they can do homework, and secondarily it could get the parents interested (they currently aren't at all apparantly).
> 
> My friend lamented the programme's depiction of girls and their educational futures, but essentially said it would be almost kinder not to educate them at all past a certain age, because what they did learn would only make them unhappy in their inevitable choice to marry and clean a house and cook. That seems like abandonment to me, like complete ignorance is better than partial, unfulfilled awareness - when surely any kind of awareness, no matter how unfulfilled, is better than none?


 
It's not abandonment, it's showing cultural sensitivity.


----------



## Bajie (Feb 15, 2011)

Utopia said:


> For those of you who missed this from '95, here's a brilliant Shane meadows short film King of the gypsies -  throws different light on the Gypsy debate!




That short film is like a polar opposite to Big Fat Gypsy Wedding


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 16, 2011)

jesus, this thread makes me sick to the stomach. as do a great deal of the posts.

well done people. you clueless fucking twats.


----------



## Part 2 (Feb 16, 2011)

Come on Paulie, you know that's not good enough.

Have you watched the series?

I was saying to the mrs tonight how it's been pretty lame overall, like the first program stretched out, we haven't really learnt anything new.

If we've learnt anything at all.


----------



## Part 2 (Feb 17, 2011)

Paddy's in the news...

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...ighter_claims_were_lies_for_tv_he_tells_court


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## skyscraper101 (Feb 17, 2011)

He's on front page of the sun today too. Apparently playing down his hard man image...






and more here


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## London_Calling (Feb 17, 2011)

C4 are getting terrific rating for this. 2 million more than the BRITS last night, I believe.


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## TopCat (Feb 17, 2011)

Travellers get all the blame around Croydon for pretty much every industrial theft, break in, plant theft, lead theft, cable theft every fucking thing gets blamed on them. Its the last acceptable racism for many. I had the threaten people with dismissal if they used the term Pikey.


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## ernestolynch (Feb 17, 2011)

Tbf they did just nick me in-laws' phone line lol


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## TopCat (Feb 17, 2011)

In Coulsdon?


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## ernestolynch (Feb 17, 2011)

Lol no in Ireland


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## Gromit (Feb 17, 2011)

Key moment for me:

Gypsy leader "We're decent, honourable, law abiding blah blah people..."

Random gypsy in background "Did he just say law abiding? lol "

: own goal  :



I have to say some of the instances of supposed gypsy prejudice were nothing to do with them being gypsies. It was due to them being drunken noisy distruptive bastards (or in the case of the hotel expulsion just noisy bastards).

Brecon jazz has in recent years seen the increased heavy handiness / low tolerance for drunken lout behaviour by the police and it has nothing to do with gypsies.

I've also seen non-gyspies being thrown out of hotels for being loud and distruptive.

I'm afraid you really can't use the argument that being a drunken, loud, distruptive bastard is part of my culture (during these celebrations) and so arresting me for it is anti gypsy bias. Cause they arrest anyone for it throughout the year and it being part of your culture is no excuse.


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## zoooo (Feb 17, 2011)

Gromit said:


> Key moment for me:
> 
> Gypsy leader "We're decent, honourable, law abiding blah blah people..."
> 
> ...



That was a tad unfortunate.


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## electroplated (Feb 17, 2011)

when I saw that I wasn't sure if he was a gypsy of one of the local 'country' people...?


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## TopCat (Feb 17, 2011)

kyser_soze said:


> I tried watching that, but DDs voice made me stop.


 
It really exposed Danny Dyer as a total fake within seconds. He was the best narrator for this shit.


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## Gromit (Feb 17, 2011)

electroplated said:


> when I saw that I wasn't sure if he was a gypsy of one of the local 'country' people...?


 
Get real. If you were a local would you say that whilst surrounded by gypsies and their leader? Only if you were suicidal.


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## electroplated (Feb 17, 2011)

he was standing next to the landlord at the time, hence me wondering if he was with him or the gipsys

you're probably right though!


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## zoooo (Feb 17, 2011)

The way the leader bloke told him to shut up struck me as something people who knew each other would say, rather than strangers.


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## fiannanahalba (Feb 17, 2011)

TopCat said:


> It really exposed Danny Dyer as a total fake within seconds. He was the best narrator for this shit.



 wotcha mean? nah waay. hes a propah geezah. tasty and got form has danny.


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## OneStrike (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm not too sure what Doherty is playing at with his latest media game but he is a tough fella who you wouldn't want to mess with, as are all of those who run travellers camps ime.  It all smacks ofmmaking more £ from the huge current media attention, possibly in a deal made with the Joyce family, young one does a bit in jail but the mythology grows?  The two owners of traveller camps that i know are feared and one (Del), is only little, i sensed he would expect to knock me out though. It's not a trade for a meek type.


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## fiannanahalba (Feb 18, 2011)

Danny Dyer should have his own travellers site, he d be the governor and no cunt would mess about on his manor. Or something like that.


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## Part 2 (Feb 18, 2011)

OneStrike said:


> I'm not too sure what Doherty is playing at with his latest media game but he is a tough fella who you wouldn't want to mess with, as are all of those who run travellers camps ime.  It all smacks ofmmaking more £ from the huge current media attention, possibly in a deal made with the Joyce family, young one does a bit in jail but the mythology grows?  The two owners of traveller camps that i know are feared and one (Del), is only little, i sensed he would expect to knock me out though. It's not a trade for a meek type.


 
Given todays developments I think you may be right. Was talking with a mate yesterday and we were buth surprised that they'd be taking this to court, it's just not the done thing. 

You really couldn't make this up. I thought Massey might have learnt from his last brush with the media.

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...surprise_witness_paul_massey_appears_at_trial


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## Numbers (Feb 18, 2011)

I know a cpl of gypsy lads, boxers, I've also known 1 or 2 knuckle men over the years, the last proper king of the gypsy fight game was Bartley Gorman, he earned his stripes and was recognised thus.  Sure Doherty and a few others who claim to be as they say (like John Fury who recently got 11 years for gouging a mans eye out) are no doubt hard men, but like most hard men of today they've not proved this fighting other proper hard men, but gained the rep' like any bully does.


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## Dandred (Feb 18, 2011)

I'll wait until one of them wins UFC.....


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## Part 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

Court case result...

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...doherty_after_paul_massey_intervenes_in_trial


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## OneStrike (Feb 21, 2011)

Haha, so celebrity gangstermcomes in to see an aquittal, build the brand and sell more stories.


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## Ax^ (Feb 22, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Travellers get all the blame around Croydon for pretty much every industrial theft, break in, plant theft, lead theft, cable theft every fucking thing gets blamed on them. Its the last acceptable racism for many. I had the threaten people with dismissal if they used the term Pikey.


 
aye as everyone should know that the correct term is "knacker"


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## grit (Feb 22, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Travellers get all the blame around Croydon for pretty much every industrial theft, break in, plant theft, lead theft, cable theft every fucking thing gets blamed on them. Its the last acceptable racism for many. I had the threaten people with dismissal if they used the term Pikey.


 
Cant comment on the UK situation, however I'd guess its similar. The structures of the community do encourage involvement in illegal activity though.


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## Part 2 (Jun 13, 2011)

They're at it again....Saturday:

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...-fat-gypsy-wedding-star-paddy-doherty-injured

Today:

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...ds-after-big-fat-gypsy-weddings-court-hearing


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## Buddy Bradley (Jul 30, 2013)

My Big Fat Gypsy Fortune is just starting on Channel 4 (or one of their other channels, More4 maybe).


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 30, 2013)

More4, but never mind the gypsy programme - Dogging Tales is on after it at ten & it's hilarious.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jul 30, 2013)

I think I might be signed up to work on one of those shows. I've not actually seen one so I don't suppose I can be all aloof and consider myself better than that. Plus I am probably not 'better than that'.


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## Part 2 (Jul 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> More4, but never mind the gypsy programme - Dogging Tales is on after it at ten & it's hilarious.


 
Nice one mate, missed it first time round


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 31, 2013)

They've got a US version of Gypsy Wedding I saw the other day on TLC. It's a bit odd because there's no real Irish Traveller community in America so the whole premise is 4th, 5th, 6th gen Romany gypsies who are all as ingrained in American culture as the rest of the mostly Euro-immigrant population. All they've got to go on is a panache for big dresses. It's even more obviously set up than the UK version.


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## Part 2 (Jul 31, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> More4, but never mind the gypsy programme - Dogging Tales is on after it at ten & it's hilarious.


 
Dear me, that was funny. I loved how they used loads of arty shots and pictures of wildlife as if to make it some kind of cultured program. The wagon driver who claimed they were they OG doggers and th couple who complained that the internet had killed dogging, ace stuff.

Obvious favourites were the brummies who were doing it to spice up their relationship because she was apparentyl just copping off with every and anyone. He even managed to achieve 'every man's dream' by getting two women into his lair. Off they went squeezed into his little motor (loved the revving the engine and wheelspinning off) but come the crunch he just wasn't into it "Oh dewnt rilly fiyull comfutuble with it Sarah". And so off they went home where they lived happily ever after.


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2013)

That skinny Brummy properly wasn't into it was he?

Couldn't fault Les though - Never underestimate the Lynx effect.


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## Part 2 (Jul 31, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> That skinny Brummy properly wasn't into it was he?


 
No. My mrs thought he might have learning difficulties, she kept telling me off for laughing at him.


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2013)

He was willing to subject himself to all manner of indignities if he thought it'd mean he wouldn't lose his girlfriend. Unfortunately that'll probably lead to her losing whatever respect she has for him. And leaving him.


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## cdg (Jul 31, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> More4, but never mind the gypsy programme - Dogging Tales is on after it at ten & it's hilarious.


 

Haa have you not seen that before?


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2013)

Yeah, but it stood a second viewing.


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## cdg (Jul 31, 2013)

Chip Barm said:


> "Oh dewnt rilly fiyull comfutuble with it Sarah".


 

''Do you want me to suck you off Darren?''

''No, I'm OK''

I felt sorry for the lad, he obviously didn't want to do it. What made me really laugh though was when his missus pulled his pants down his cock was nearly at his knees


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## cdg (Jul 31, 2013)

Chip Barm said:


> No. My mrs thought he might have learning difficulties, she kept telling me off for laughing at him.


 

That's the impression I got. The disguises were so shit that anybody that knew them wouldn't have been fooled.


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