# Study: Why the Welsh voted for Brexit



## editor (Oct 27, 2017)

This is an interesting bit of research: 



> Focus group participants in Merthyr and the Rhondda were notably unhappy at the increase in the Polish communities in those places. This was not articulated simply as xenophobia: a specifically working-class objection to immigration advanced to us was that, by making the jobs market much more competitive, the wages of locals were driven downwards. Thus, immigration was viewed as working much more to the benefit of managers and companies than for ordinary working people. Immigrants willing to work for low wages were also seen as contributing to the decline in some town centres, and in particular leading to the growth of charity and low-value shops catering to the needs of a low-wage economy.





> Many thought that England had done much better out of EU membership, and that Wales and the Valleys had received little: “I know they done the roads round here but that’s it,” as one focus group participant put it. But even those who acknowledged that some EU funding had come their way were very dubious of its value. Several of those we spoke to talked of white elephants, and “vanity projects” that were seen to deliver little of long-term worth to local people.





> Many of those we spoke to thought that their communities were already in dire straits, and that it would be difficult for things to get much worse.


I spent a year researching why working-class Welsh people in the Valleys voted for Brexit, and this is what I found


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2017)

You could probably observe the same sorts of views in other areas that voted to leave across the country, I'd guess.


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## planetgeli (Oct 27, 2017)

farmerbarleymow said:


> You could probably observe the same sorts of views in other areas that voted to leave across the country, I'd guess.



Yes, but you’ll also observe differing reasons too. For how else could you explain, e.g, the Pembrokeshire result - 57-43 for leaving - when absolutely none of what is in that article applies. Likewise for some of the North Wales areas that aren’t ‘overrun’ by immigrant communities...unless you count retiring scousers.

What is a common factor in Pembrokeshire (which, incidentally, voted far more, percentage wise, for ‘leave’ than most of the South Wales valleys) and those North Wales areas is a ‘Little England’ culture/mentality. Pembrokeshire would probably vote to leave Wales if it could and the coast of Flintshire etc is basically Liverpool-by-the-sea for those who can afford to retire there from Lancashire.

“Wales voted for Brexit” headlines have been common since the referendum. Which pisses me off because, for accuracy, it should be remembered it was England that really voted for Brexit. The Welsh majority for leave was 82,000 votes. The English was 1.9 million.

Gwynedd, the most ‘anti-English’ area of Wales (and so would I be if I was born in Caernarfon without even a fucking railway station) voted Remain. 

For a binary vote, the reasons for voting were far from binary.


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## Gromit (Oct 27, 2017)

What people don't understand is that even paying local people to build white elephants is beneficial as their European funded wages make their way into the local economy (instead of staying in the pockets of wealthy Londoners). 

I predict that Statutory funding (and match funding) will plummet in Wales under English rule and suggest that Wales has cut off its own nose to spite its face.


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## harpo (Oct 27, 2017)

It doesn't explain why areas of similar poverty and EU funding, such as Liverpool, voted to remain.


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## Gromit (Oct 27, 2017)

harpo said:


> It doesn't explain why areas of similar poverty and EU funding, such as Liverpool, voted to remain.


Liverpool's long history of slave trading makes it a lot more multicultural than Wales.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2017)

harpo said:


> It doesn't explain why areas of similar poverty and EU funding, such as Liverpool, voted to remain.



I saw this curious map recently. Obviously just correlation, but there you go.


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## spanglechick (Oct 27, 2017)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I saw this curious map recently. Obviously just correlation, but there you go.
> 
> View attachment 118957


Where's that from?


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## planetgeli (Oct 27, 2017)

spanglechick said:


> Where's that from?



The 2016 one is from the BBC referendum vote.


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## Ted Striker (Oct 27, 2017)

It's fake!


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2017)

Ted Striker said:


> It's fake!



Maybe, but amusing nonetheless.  But every area would have had its own mix of reasons that triggered leave majorities - with some commonalities across the board.  It would be interesting to see a map of leave majority areas and readership of the scumbag right wing press - difficult to tell whether there would be a correlation, but the hysterical nature of their reporting must have some impact.


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## spanglechick (Oct 27, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> The 2016 one is from the BBC referendum vote.


But where did you get the graphic from? It's just so obviously fake and I was wondering what level of organisation thought putting a map through a black and white filter looked credible.


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## planetgeli (Oct 27, 2017)

spanglechick said:


> But where did you get the graphic from? It's just so obviously fake and I was wondering what level of organisation thought putting a map through a black and white filter looked credible.



I didn’t get the graphic from anywhere. It’s farmerbarleymow’s post. I was just telling you where the first graphic came from.


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## harpo (Oct 28, 2017)

Gromit said:


> Liverpool's long history of slave trading makes it a lot more multicultural than Wales.


Non sequitur of the week


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## Happy Larry (Oct 29, 2017)

"the jobs market much more competitive, the wages of locals were driven downwards. Thus, immigration was viewed as working much more to the benefit of managers and companies than for ordinary working people. Immigrants willing to work for low wages were also seen as contributing to the decline in some town centres, and in particular leading to the growth of charity and low-value shops catering to the needs of a low-wage economy."

The people of Wales were spot on. Many working class people in Greater Manchester, that I know, think exactly the same.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 29, 2017)

Gromit said:


> What people don't understand is that even paying local people to build white elephants is beneficial as their European funded wages make their way into the local economy (instead of staying in the pockets of wealthy Londoners).



They don't believe it because they know that it is not true.

Unless the wealthy invest their money, and therefore contribute towards new business or housing loans etc, then they will not stay wealthy, as inflation will eventually decrease their buying power.


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## Celyn (Oct 29, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> “Wales voted for Brexit” headlines have been common since the referendum. Which pisses me off because, for accuracy, it should be remembered it was England that really voted for Brexit. The Welsh majority for leave was 82,000 votes. The English was 1.9 million.


Oh well, it doesn't matter. Even if every voting area in Wales had voted to remain, you would still be leaving instead.


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## Celyn (Oct 29, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> They don't believe it because they know that it is not true.
> 
> Unless the wealthy invest their money, and therefore contribute towards new business or housing loans etc, then they will not stay wealthy, as inflation will eventually decrease their buying power.


You don't think that locally paid wages are of benefit to the local economy?

What are your reasons for saying that it is not true that they make their way into the local economy?


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## Celyn (Oct 29, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> "the jobs market much more competitive, the wages of locals were driven downwards. Thus, immigration was viewed as working much more to the benefit of managers and companies than for ordinary working people. Immigrants willing to work for low wages were also seen as contributing to the decline in some town centres, and in particular leading to the growth of charity and low-value shops catering to the needs of a low-wage economy."
> 
> The people of Wales were spot on. Many working class people in Greater Manchester, that I know, think exactly the same.


Why, in your view, did Glasgow vote to remain?


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## Happy Larry (Oct 29, 2017)

Celyn said:


> Why, in your view, did Glasgow vote to remain?



I have no personal knowledge of that as I was last in Glasgow many years ago. Perhaps the people there are mindful that Scotland may well become independent of the UK one day, and therefore being part of the EU may be seen to be beneficial if independence does happen. Perhaps the Scots do not perceive the same threat to their jobs, from excessive immigration, that the Welsh and the people of Greater Manchester do.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 29, 2017)

Celyn said:


> You don't think that locally paid wages are of benefit to the local economy?



They are a temporary benefit, but spending money on "white elephants" is obviously a total waste of resources.

As much as Socialists hate to admit it, the "wealthy" pay a huge part of the nations tax directly, and also indirectly by employing most of the nations labour force, who in turn pay most of the rest. Their money does a lot more than simply sit in their pockets.


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## Celyn (Oct 29, 2017)

So it IS true that there is benefit to the local economy.


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## 1927 (Oct 29, 2017)

Celyn said:


> So it IS true that there is benefit to the local economy.


The dualling of the Heads of The Valleys road, paid for with EU money has had a major affect on the local economy. It is now possible to do a drugs deal in Brynmawr at 930 and still be back on the Gurnos before your curfew.


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## ddraig (Oct 29, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> They are a temporary benefit, but spending money on "white elephants" is obviously a total waste of resources.
> 
> As much as Socialists hate to admit it, the "wealthy" pay a huge part of the nations tax directly, and also indirectly by employing most of the nations labour force, who in turn pay most of the rest. Their money does a lot more than simply sit in their pockets.


ah those kind selfless rich folk, what would we do without them...


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## planetgeli (Oct 29, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> As much as Socialists hate to admit it, the "wealthy" pay a huge part of the nations tax directly, and also indirectly by employing most of the nations labour force, who in turn pay most of the rest. Their money does a lot more than simply sit in their pockets.



A large part of their wealth (now inherited, passed down) was directly made from the labour of the Welsh working class in the industrial revolution. A revolution that benefitted a small class of people in Britain while the workers of South Wales got nothing in return beyond illness and death. Have you ever visited the valleys? A more obvious gap between those who make the wealth and those who take the wealth is hard to imagine in Britain.

So..fuck off.


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## planetgeli (Oct 29, 2017)

1927 said:


> The dualling of the Heads of The Valleys road, paid for with EU money has had a major affect on the local economy. It is now possible to do a drugs deal in Brynmawr at 930 and still be back on the Gurnos before your curfew.



The Heads of the Valley Road is boss. No cameras (one last time I looked), no police, no traffic. We have some great, empty, EU funded roads in South Wales.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 30, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> A revolution that benefitted a small class of people in Britain while the workers of South Wales got nothing in return



They weren't paid then? They were forced to be there?

Or did they work for the businesses/mines because they knew they would be better off by doing so? It worked both ways.

My own ancestors worked in the cotton mills and coal mines of Lancashire. My grannie worked in a textile mill from the age of 12. When I was horrified at this, she looked at me as if I was crazy and told me that it was the happiest day of her life as she felt so proud that she was then able to assist her family. People like my ancestors left the farms of England because they were taken advantage of by wealthy landowners. They were far better off working in the factories and coal mines, so why not give some credit where it is due? Of course, the owners of these businesses made a good return on their businesses until they mostly closed down due to the high cost of labour in the UK which made imports manufactured with cheaper labour less costly to the consumer.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 30, 2017)

ddraig said:


> what would we do without them...



You'd struggle to feed your families without the employment they provide.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 30, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> They weren't paid then? They were forced to be there?
> 
> Or did they work for the businesses/mines because they knew they would be better off by doing so? It worked both ways.
> 
> My own ancestors worked in the cotton mills and coal mines of Lancashire. My grannie worked in a textile mill from the age of 12. When I was horrified at this, she looked at me as if I was crazy and told me that it was the happiest day of her life as she felt so proud that she was then able to assist her family. People like my ancestors left the farms of England because they were taken advantage of by wealthy landowners. They were far better off working in the factories and coal mines, so why not give some credit where it is due? Of course, the owners of these businesses made a good return on their businesses until they mostly closed down due to the high cost of labour in the UK which made imports manufactured with cheaper labour less costly to the consumer.


Wow. Where to start? Maybe start by asking where the factory owners got the capital from to build the factories?


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## planetgeli (Oct 30, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> They weren't paid then? They were forced to be there?



They weren't paid much, no. And relative to the wealth they created (putting the 'Great' in Britain) they were paid nothing.

Were they forced to be there? Do you know what the alternative was? Did your granny mention the workhouse?

Maybe stop with the history lessons from your gran and do some actual studying instead. I'm not going to do it for you, but I will give you a start. To understand what I'm getting at, you need to go back not to the 1800s, but to the Poor Law Act of 1388 which created a culture that restricted the movement of labourers (what would become the working class) and started a form of welfare state that obstensibly was there to look after the workers.. And only when that crashes with the poor harvests and the beginnings of the industrial revolution can you start looking at the New Poor Law of 1834 which really starts to put the boot into the poor with its new rules on the workhouse. Then you might throw yourself in some statistics which will show you the tens of thousands of deaths caused by coal mining in south Wales alone, despite which, men still 'chose' to go down the mines.

Forced to be there? You work it out for yourself.


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## Gromit (Oct 30, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> The Heads of the Valley Road is boss. No cameras (one last time I looked), no police, no traffic. We have some great, empty, EU funded roads in South Wales.


It used to be a death trap. Lots of fatalities every year. 
The development was also supposed to help encourage businesses to the "five counties". I'd love to know how that has worked out.


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## planetgeli (Oct 30, 2017)

Gromit said:


> It used to be a death trap. Lots of fatalities every year.



I am aware of this. I believe the improvements to the road, as well as the single (to my knowledge) average speed check are being claimed for reducing deaths by half. Certainly this seems to be the case around Merthyr Tydfil, which was perhaps the worst area of the road.



> The development was also supposed to help encourage businesses to the "five counties". I'd love to know how that has worked out.



If it hasn't (yet) then it's not for the lack of improved transport links and a workforce-in-waiting. In which case its big (or even small) business the finger needs pointing at. People can't moan when no money is spent, then moan when money is spent.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 30, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Maybe start by asking where the factory owners got the capital from to build the factories?



Don't have to, sunshine. Where I come from, Lord Leverhulme is probably the most prominent businessman of days gone by. He started his working life working in his fathers small wholesale grocery business and innovated by making soap from vegetable oil and selling it by the piece instead of by weight. He sold his soap under the brand name "Sunlight" and started what is now known as Unilever. He donated huge tracts of land to the people of Bolton for recreational purposes as well as building a model village for his workers at Port Sunlight. Like us all, he wasn't perfect, but he certainly brought about a huge improvement in many peoples lives through his ingenuity and hard work. The vast majority of the capital he utilised was generated from his own work.

There's good and bad in everyone, both rich and poor. It's no use whinging and moaning about how the working classes are a "victim" of the rich/Tories/business people etc, both in the past and nowadays. Many working class people have made use of the opportunities this great country has offered them and have done very well for themselves financially. As have many of those those immigrants who have come here to make a better life for themselves. They also haven't sat around waiting for someone to help them, instead they've been pro-active in working hard and helping themselves


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## DotCommunist (Oct 30, 2017)

british west africa then expanded into, by all accounts even viler, belgian congo. Just hard work eh


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## krtek a houby (Oct 30, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Don't have to, sunshine. Where I come from, Lord Leverhulme is probably the most prominent businessman of days gone by. He started his working life working in his fathers small wholesale grocery business and innovated by making soap from vegetable oil and selling it by the piece instead of by weight. He sold his soap under the brand name "Sunlight" and started what is now known as Unilever. He donated huge tracts of land to the people of Bolton for recreational purposes as well as building a model village for his workers at Port Sunlight. Like us all, he wasn't perfect, but he certainly brought about a huge improvement in many peoples lives through his ingenuity and hard work. The vast majority of the capital he utilised was generated from his own work.
> 
> There's good and bad in everyone, both rich and poor. It's no use whinging and moaning about how the working classes are a "victim" of the rich/Tories/business people etc, both in the past and nowadays. Many working class people have made use of the opportunities this great country has offered them and have done very well for themselves financially. As have many of those those immigrants who have come here to make a better life for themselves. They also haven't sat around waiting for someone to help them, instead they've been pro-active in working hard and helping themselves



Lord Leverhulme the racist and supporter of forced labour, is it, Larry?

The mask is slipping, old chap.


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## planetgeli (Oct 30, 2017)

In a thread about Wales, to characterise the Welsh working class as,



Happy Larry said:


> sat around waiting for someone to help them



is deeply insulting. Can you think of many groups of workers who,



> 've been pro-active in working hard and helping themselves



more than a group who went deep underground for 12 hours a day laying on their backs hacking at rock to make your country 'great'?

I can't.

And for every Lord Leverhulme, a man who even the Daily Mail admits,



> The altruism of Leverhulme or the Cadbury family are in sad contrast to the antisocial attitude of modern business magnates, who think only of profit and the shareholder.



I'll give you multiples of these. This is how much worth capitalism puts on the life of its workers. This is what your 'great' country was built upon.



> The *Senghenydd colliery disaster*, also known as the *Senghenydd explosion*, occurred at the Universal Colliery in Senghenydd, near Caerphilly, Glamorgan, Wales, on 14 October 1913. The explosion, which killed 439 miners and a rescuer, is still the worst mining accident in the United Kingdom. The subsequent enquiry pointed to errors made by the company and its management leading to charges of negligence against Edward Shaw, the colliery manager, and the owners. Shaw was fined £24 while the company was fined £10;* newspapers calculated the cost of each miner lost was just 5 and 1/2 pence.*


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 30, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Don't have to, sunshine. Where I come from, Lord Leverhulme is probably the most prominent businessman of days gone by. He started his working life working in his fathers small wholesale grocery business and innovated by making soap from vegetable oil and selling it by the piece instead of by weight. He sold his soap under the brand name "Sunlight" and started what is now known as Unilever. He donated huge tracts of land to the people of Bolton for recreational purposes as well as building a model village for his workers at Port Sunlight. Like us all, he wasn't perfect, but he certainly brought about a huge improvement in many peoples lives through his ingenuity and hard work. The vast majority of the capital he utilised was generated from his own work.
> 
> There's good and bad in everyone, both rich and poor. It's no use whinging and moaning about how the working classes are a "victim" of the rich/Tories/business people etc, both in the past and nowadays. Many working class people have made use of the opportunities this great country has offered them and have done very well for themselves financially. As have many of those those immigrants who have come here to make a better life for themselves. They also haven't sat around waiting for someone to help them, instead they've been pro-active in working hard and helping themselves


Hypocritical, moralising, racist puritan cunt (who raised capital to buy his first factory not from his own work).


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## Happy Larry (Oct 31, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> who raised capital to buy his first factory not from his own work



The capital he raised was invested with him because capitalists believed in both him and his prospects. They we certainly correct. Do you really think money was invested with him without good reason, bright spark?

Leverhulme didn't sit back and whinge and moan, green with envy, that others had more than him. He pulled his finger out, and with ingenuity and hard work, produced a massive business that now, after merging with a Dutch company, employs about 170 000 people. Of course, the usual whiners will try to demonise him, as they do, but how many jobs have they created, and how much tax have they paid, compared to him?


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## krtek a houby (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Of course, the usual whiners will try to demonise him, as they do, but how many jobs have they created, and how much tax have they paid, compared to him?



Yeah, sod the whole racism and exploitation. A great guy. One of the greats. Lots of jobs. Best jobs in the world.


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 31, 2017)

I had to look this geezer up but going to.private school and having his food and lodging paid for him when he was took on by his business owning dad indicates his fortune, no matter what happened later, didn't come to him due to the sweat of his brow alone, like so many of these 'self-made' rich like to paint themselves. Like Donald "A small loan from my father" Trump, for example.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 31, 2017)

S☼I said:


> like so many of these 'self-made' rich like to paint themselves.



Successful fathers often produce successful children. Not always. Some rich kids are spoilt. Leverhulme created far more than the small business his father owned. Trump has created far more than the construction business specialising in residential property that his father started and makes his money mainly from the rich with his golf courses, luxury apartments and casinos. Alan Sugar's family lived in Hackney, but through sheer hard work and ingenuity has created a profitable business employing lots of people.

Instead of being green with envy and sneer at the achievements of others, why not give credit where it is due?


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## krtek a houby (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Successful fathers often produce successful children. Not always. Some rich kids are spoilt. Leverhulme created far more than the small business his father owned. Trump has created far more than the construction business specialising in residential property that his father started and makes his money mainly from the rich with his golf courses, luxury apartments and casinos. Alan Sugar's family lived in Hackney, but through sheer hard work and ingenuity has created a profitable business employing lots of people.
> 
> Instead of being green with envy and sneer at the achievements of others, why not give credit where it is due?



Not going to laud any racists who have exploited people. Be it Leverhulme or the sexual predator, thanks.


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Successful fathers often produce successful children. Not always. Some rich kids are spoilt. Leverhulme created far more than the small business his father owned. Trump has created far more than the construction business specialising in residential property that his father started and makes his money mainly from the rich with his golf courses, luxury apartments and casinos. Alan Sugar's family lived in Hackney, but through sheer hard work and ingenuity has created a profitable business employing lots of people.
> 
> Instead of being green with envy and sneer at the achievements of others, why not give credit where it is due?


Almost as though having a nice amount of cash is useful when getting started making more cash, which your post above fails to mention for some reason 

And really. "Green with envy"? "Sneering at the achievements of others"? Where did I do this?
I suppose it depends on your definition of achievements, but for me it ain't a big bank balance.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 31, 2017)

S☼I said:


> Almost as though having a nice amount of cash is useful when getting started making more cash



I am sure that it can be. But then you also need brains and ability, otherwise it will be gone very soon.

How much money do you think Alan Sugar started with?


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> I am sure that it can be. But then you also need brains and ability, otherwise it will be gone very soon.
> 
> How much money do you think Alan Sugar started with?


Why don't you look in his autobiography and tell me?


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 31, 2017)

Not difficult to find the odd rich man who made money cos they got lucky and worked hard. It's extrapolating this to make out every rich fucker started from nothing, that they're "not like other people" and it was basically just graft that made them their fortunes. The flipside of this load of old pony is that anyone inexplicably not mega-rich simply hasn't tried hard enough, which is the kind of argument shat out by 19 year old upper middle class PPE students from the Home Counties on Twitter.


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 31, 2017)

Besides, Sugar is a prick who doesn't seem to take much pleasure from his fortune. I get the feeling to get him to smile you'd need a complicated series of elastic bands and a wrench.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 31, 2017)

S☼I said:


> Sugar is a prick



I'm not really surprised that you hold this bigoted view about Sugar.

He is successful, worked bloody hard to get where he is and is obviously intelligent.

You probably have nothing in common at all.


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## krtek a houby (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> I'm not really surprised that you hold this bigoted view about Sugar.
> 
> He is successful, worked bloody hard to get where he is and is obviously intelligent.
> 
> You probably have nothing in common at all.



Are you working hard to be a troll, Larry?


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## Chilli.s (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> The capital he raised was invested with him because capitalists believed in both him and his prospects.



Secured against other family businesses, that's how loans work.


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> I'm not really surprised that you hold this bigoted view about Sugar.
> 
> He is successful, worked bloody hard to get where he is and is obviously intelligent.
> 
> You probably have nothing in common at all.


OoooooOOOOOoooooh
Bigoted would be an irrational dislike of the man. But I dislike him cos he's an unpleasant piece of shit.

Anyway. You've successfully derailed the thread, and I'm not going to indulge you in this further. Either address the OP or fuck off back to aggressively wanking to photographs of Ayn Rand in that stupid hat.


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## planetgeli (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Trump has created far more than the construction business specialising in residential property that his father started and makes his money mainly from the rich with his golf courses, luxury apartments and casinos.
> 
> Instead of being green with envy and sneer at the achievements of others, why not give credit where it is due?



Hold on one minute. I’m not letting this one go.

Trump has bankrupted businesses *four *times, that’s more than any other large businessman. He has had debts written off to the tune of more than a *billion *dollars and made thousands of people lose their jobs.

Further to this, his largest creditor in his first bankruptcy was a man called Carl Icahn. Icahn then became a special advisor to Trump (on regulation!,  I couldn’t make this shit up) for 9 months, during which he had access to non-public, i.e secret, information.

While serving in this post Icahn pushed for a rule change that saw him make hundreds of millions of dollars for a petroleum company he held a large stake in.

This is how the hard working rich make their money.

Subterfuge. Some might say fraud.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 31, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> Trump has bankrupted businesses *four *times



I think it's six times actually. They were mostly casinos which are always a gamble (excuse the pun).



planetgeli said:


> Subterfuge. Some might say fraud.



They would obviously be totally ignorant people. The limited company is indeed just that. It limits liability. It ensures that failed business ventures do not drag successful ones along with them. That's its purpose. Any astute lender to such a company knows this. Those that have lost money on some of Trumps failed businesses have usually made up for their losses on his successful ones.


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## editor (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Those that have lost money on some of Trumps failed businesses have usually made up for their losses on his successful ones.


Be sure to produce some evidence to back up this remarkable claim. Thanks.


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## Gromit (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> I think it's six times actually. They were mostly casinos which are always a gamble (excuse the pun).
> 
> 
> 
> They would obviously be totally ignorant people. The limited company is indeed just that. It limits liability. It ensures that failed business ventures do not drag successful ones along with them. That's its purpose. Any astute lender to such a company knows this. Those that have lost money on some of Trumps failed businesses have usually made up for their losses on his successful ones.


Casinos are rarely a gamble. The only risk is fending off organised crime wanting to take over.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 31, 2017)

In his book "The Art of the Comeback" Trump claims that many of the banks that lost money on his failed businesses are still doing business with him today.


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## editor (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> In his book "The Art of the Comeback" Trump claims that many of the banks that lost money on his failed businesses are still doing business with him today.


You said 'failed businesses' not 'banks.' So I ask again: please produce something to back this up.

Not sure why you believe everything Trump writes either.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 31, 2017)

editor said:


> You said 'failed businesses' not 'banks.



Trump has never owned a bank. What is your point?

I was talking about lenders to Trumps businesses, which include banks like Deutsche Bank, which has lost money on some of his failed businesses but still lends to his current businesses.

*When Donald Trump Needs a Loan, He Chooses Deutsche Bank*

Why would Deutsche Bank "resume" lending him money, despite their bad experience with a past loan, unless they believed they would profit in the future from him?

"But rather than walking away, the bank’s private wealth division then resumed lending to Trump, the troublesome four-times bankrupt client who had defaulted on a major loan."

How Donald Trump became Deutsche Bank's biggest headache


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> The capital he raised was invested with him because capitalists believed in both him and his prospects.


And that capital came from where? What produced that value?


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 31, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Trump has never owned a bank. What is your point?
> 
> I was talking about lenders to Trumps businesses, which include banks like Deutsche Bank, which has lost money on some of his failed businesses but still lends to his current businesses.
> 
> ...


Given this is nothing whatsoever to do with the thread's topic, how about you start a thread in World Politics about how entrepreneurs are merely ordinary people who happen to try harder and are smarter than the rest of us, or whatever it is you believe about them? Happy Larry


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## editor (Oct 31, 2017)

S☼I said:


> Given this is nothing whatsoever to do with the thread's topic, how about you start a thread in World Politics about how entrepreneurs are merely ordinary people who happen to try harder and are smarter than the rest of us, or whatever it is you believe about them? Happy Larry


Agreed. Off you go, Happy Larry.


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## planetgeli (Oct 31, 2017)

Fuck you, I’m having the last word because you’re either lying, or more likely, you’re displaying your ignorance and stupidity.



Happy Larry said:


> The limited company is indeed just that. It limits liability. It ensures that failed business ventures do not drag successful ones along with them. That's its purpose. Any astute lender to such a company knows this. Those that have lost money on some of Trumps failed businesses have usually made up for their losses on his successful ones.



Bollocks. They were all chapter 11 restructurings, which allow a business (Trump’s business) to stay in business while shedding its debts to banks, employees and suppliers. How many of those thousands of employees who lost their jobs “made up for their losses”?

As for the ones who lent him money, you want to know what he says about them?

“Those lenders aren’t babies. They are total killers. These are not nice, sweet little people.”

Which kinda explains the few who did make something back on further Trump ventures. The ones he owed favours, like banks and Carl Ichan, who you totally didn’t respond to in my earlier post. People he’s scared of (“total killers”) and whom he had to bribe, some with positions in government.

Now fuck off. This thread is about Wales. You’ve ruined enough threads with your duplicitous shit.


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## ddraig (Oct 31, 2017)

fuck your bollocks about "envy" too


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## Happy Larry (Oct 31, 2017)

editor said:


> Agreed. Off you go, Happy Larry.



I totally agree that the thread has gone off topic and should be continued elsewhere so I will happily comply.

I suggest that you remember that it takes two to tango, and that other posters are equally culpable in this regard.


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## Grandma Death (Dec 3, 2017)

Im sure Ive read somewhere that that greatest fears of immigration are in areas of the lowest immigration? Didnt Sunderland have one of the highest votes leave but very little immigration?

That being the case does this illustrate the entire debate is a poisoned chalice-where fear is a major driving factor in the concerns the indigenous population have about immigration rather than the hard facts?


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## Grandma Death (Dec 3, 2017)

I personally have found the entire brexit thing hugely divisive. I grew up in the valleys. Wales is the only part of the country that are net beneficiaries of EU funding. Yet most of my mates voted leave-and the main theme of those discussions were around borders, immigration and 'taking back control'

People Ive know for 30 years have been coming out with some real dodgy stuff-and even using terms like 'snowflakes' and 'remoaners' and Ive found it all thoroughly depressing


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 3, 2017)

Grandma Death said:


> I personally have found the entire brexit thing hugely divisive. I grew up in the valleys. Wales is the only part of the country that are net beneficiaries of EU funding. Yet most of my mates voted leave-and the main theme of those discussions were around borders, immigration and 'taking back control'
> 
> People Ive know for 30 years have been coming out with some real dodgy stuff-and even using terms like 'snowflakes' and 'remoaners' and Ive found it all thoroughly depressing


That's my mum and dad.  Living in a bit of Wales with hardly any immigrants. They barely encounter immigrants in their daily lives, yet there was 'too much immigration'. They were also sold on this nebulous 'taking back control' line, and I think they're common for those of their age in relating it to 'we didn't sign up for this' in 1973.

I agree that it is thoroughly depressing. Scapegoating immigrants for social problems is hardly new, but it's always easier to believe when there aren't any actual immigrants around you to spoil the story.


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 3, 2017)

I don't want to believe that there is an anti-immigrant majority in Britain. I don't believe that there is. But it's mighty close, and that makes me feel like a foreigner in my own country.


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## Happy Larry (Dec 3, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't want to believe that there is an anti-immigrant majority in Britain.



That's good, because there isn't one. What there is, is a significant number of people who believe that immigration into the UK has been excessive in recent decades. There are also a number of people who feel that the level of immigration is fine and desire to make those who disagree with them look like "bad" people, so that they can claim the moral high ground, by stupidly claiming that those who disagree with them are racist.


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## Happy Larry (Dec 3, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Living in a bit of Wales with hardly any immigrants.



Probably because they are decent people and voted for what they thought was best for the nation as a whole.


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## ddraig (Dec 3, 2017)

Fuck off, again, Larry


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## Supine (Dec 3, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Probably because they are decent people and voted for what they thought was best for the nation as a whole.



Maybe that is true but they were wrong. The feckin ejiiits.


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## planetgeli (Mar 3, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Hold on one minute. I’m not letting this one go.
> 
> Trump has bankrupted businesses *four *times, that’s more than any other large businessman. He has had debts written off to the tune of more than a *billion *dollars and made thousands of people lose their jobs.
> 
> ...



Ah, time to go back to Trump’s largest creditor in that first bankruptcy, the above mentioned Mr Carl Icahn. A man, you might say, Mr Trump owes a favour or three to. And those favours just keep on coming.

Ex-Trump adviser sold $31m in shares days before president announced steel tariffs

This week, Trump unexpectedly announced tariffs on imported steel. Icahn owned shares, lots of shares, in a company called Manitowoc, a company heavily dependent on imported steel. He started selling those shares just a few days before Trump announced the tariff. Result? $31 million of shares sold at a price that fell over 5% once Trump announced the tariff. Put another way, those shares were sold by Icahn for roughly $1.5 million, let’s call it a million quid, more than he would have made if some sneaky bastard President with a debt to pay hadn’t informed him of the intention to apply a tariff to imported steel.

This is how the rich make their money, while the poor have to sweat for every cent.


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