# My electricity bill has just tripled: how about yours? Alternative suppliers?



## editor (Feb 25, 2022)

For FUCK'S SAKE


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## weepiper (Feb 25, 2022)

Was £101 a month (gas and electricity). Now £128 a month.


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## colacubes (Feb 25, 2022)

Combined gas and electric was £111 now £163.


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## gosub (Feb 25, 2022)

Wholesale prices have gone up 50% since you had that Bill. They are limited on how much they can pass on to the consumer but expect them to rise again


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## editor (Feb 25, 2022)

gosub said:


> Wholesale prices have gone up 50% since you had that Bill. They are limited on how much they can pass on to the consumer but expect them to rise again


Sure but monthly payments going from £20 to £60 is more than 50%. And no doubt it will go up even more because of that cunt Putin.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 25, 2022)

Mine is going to nearly double


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## gosub (Feb 25, 2022)

editor said:


> Sure but monthly payments going from £20 to £60 is more than 50%. And no doubt it will go up even more because of that cunt Putin.


Yes Putin but Norway will prioritize EU supply and we have very little stategic storage capacity to buffer us from market fluctuations


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## A380 (Feb 25, 2022)

Moved from Bulb to Ecotricity when bulb went bust. Jumping the move off of tariffs everyone is facing now. Artisan price gauging- I know a guy…

My monthly winter bill went from £250 to £630: yes, that’s six fucking hundred and fucking thirty pounds. And it’s not an error. Welcome to the future.


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 25, 2022)

My combined gas and electric has gone up by 50%, from £114pm to £171pm. 

However, that's based on the estimates SSE made before transferring me to OVO, who have agreed I was being massively overcharged by SSE, to the point I've actually paid 18 months up front for the electric, once they resolve that, I expect to be paying somewhere around £120-£130pm.


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## platinumsage (Feb 25, 2022)

£62 for gas and electric -> £155


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 25, 2022)

A380 said:


> Moved from Bulb to Ecotricity when bulb went bust. Jumping the move off of tariffs everyone is facing now. Artisan price gauging- I know a guy…
> 
> My monthly winter bill went from £250 to £630: yes, that’s six fucking hundred and fucking thirty pounds. And it’s not an error. Welcome to the future.



£630 a month? 

Do you live in a castle?


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## editor (Feb 25, 2022)

Is there any point trying to find another supplier or am I going to be shafted no matter what?


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## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

£800 -> £1200 apparently (for year)


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## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

editor said:


> Is there any point trying to find another supplier or am I going to be shafted no matter what?


you can try but even with the cheapest supplier you'll be shafted


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## colacubes (Feb 25, 2022)

editor said:


> Is there any point trying to find another supplier or am I going to be shafted no matter what?


At the moment everyone is fucked because of rising costs and the price cap going up in April. There's no deals to be had anywhere and the man from Money Saving Expert says there is no point looking for deals. So no unfortunately. It's shit.

ETA - this is a problem across all suppliers and the rising costs is part of the reason so many firms have gone bust in the last year. It is not Bulb specific (I'm with Octopus).


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## platinumsage (Feb 25, 2022)

editor said:


> Is there any point trying to find another supplier or am I going to be shafted no matter what?



No point. Your choice is either to remain on your existing supplier's standard variable tariff, or choose a much more expensive fixed tariff in the hope it might seem like a good deal after the forthcoming price cap rise due October.

There's a small chance your existing supplier might offer you a fixed tariff similar to the current variable tariff, in which you should probably go for it.


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## A380 (Feb 25, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> £630 a month?
> 
> Do you live in a castle?


Nope, a drafty solid walled 1920s house build to an Edwardian design. It’s why I’m trying to sell it.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 25, 2022)

We got a new fixed tariff in Autumn which was already a 50% increase in both unit price and standing charge. It should be good for two years but I'm fully expecting them to wriggle out of it and put our bills up sooner or later.

We can't pay more for energy. There's no fat left on our income. Our rent is guaranteed to go up again in September and there's no chance I'll get a pay rise to match. Council tax is going up. NI is going up. Fuck all of this.


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 25, 2022)

Basically if the increase from 1st April is more than around 50%, there's something wrong.


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## A380 (Feb 25, 2022)

A380 said:


> Nope, a drafty solid walled 1920s house build to an Edwardian design. It’s why I’m trying to sell it.


It was the move when Bulb went bust. I think other companies are going for the boiling a frog approach. But I think these prices are the new normal.

( And probably’good’ from a climate change perspective… hurts though)


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## not henry (Feb 25, 2022)

Your bill hasn't tripled, the direct debits have. you can negotiate these to over or underpay. I am on a fuel only payment (no standing charge) but with these increases I may have to get out the calculator. I used to hate being away for a week or not using gas for days on end whilst still being charged a standing rate for putting on a big jumper. To me it definitely makes a difference to see how much the actual fuel costs.
Edit  My apologies your bill has gone up that much...Unbelievable


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## Elpenor (Feb 25, 2022)

Fixed till April 2023. Probably one of my better decisions


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## andysays (Feb 25, 2022)

I'm currently in the middle of a one year fixed price deal arranged on my behalf for members of my union.

I don't imagine there will be anything even remotely similar available when the deal comes to an end in August.


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## A380 (Feb 25, 2022)

not henry said:


> Your bill hasn't tripled, the direct debits have. you can negotiate these to over or underpay. I am on a fuel only payment (no standing charge) but with these increases I may have to get out the calculator. I used to hate being away for a week or not using gas for days on end whilst still being charged a standing rate for putting on a big jumper. To me it definitely makes a difference to see how much the actual fuel costs.
> Edit  My apologies your bill has gone up that much...Unbelievable


Indeed, because I’m selling I’m paying the actuall monthly usage rather than spread it out so I don’t end up owing in the summer. Mind you my electricity element ( no heating or hot water) has gone up three fold and that won’t change in the summer.


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## StoneRoad (Feb 25, 2022)

We have tanked LPG as our main source of gas for cooking & space heating / hot water.
In terms of the price, that, too, has gone up to astronomical levels [in excess of 55p/litre - it used to be about 15p].
The price of electric has been following suit, and we are using more of it, as we often bulk oven cook meals etc and during covid lockdowns we have had three smallish freezers on the go, the oldest of which runs far more than it should to keep the contents frozen.
The only thing we can do is be even more parsimonious on usage as I don't fancy trawling the system trying to get a "good deal", yet again ...
and run our log-burner more often [fair quantity of windfall logs available].
But out of the usual suggestions, I think most people are already do pretty much all they can




clch - energy bill savings [late 2021] par StoneRoad2013, on ipernity

There is definitely [imo] some serious price gouging going on with the standard variable tariffs.
But I do accept that some of the re-sellers were bankrupted by the price cap vs spot / wholesale pricing.




clch - UK Gas prices, Dec 2021 par StoneRoad2013, on ipernity

and 



clch - energy crisis 3; gone bust [30th Nov 2021] par StoneRoad2013, on ipernity


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## not a trot (Feb 25, 2022)

Have smart meter with British Gas. Current combined usage is £295 since 20th December 21. Currently paying £110 a month and account balance is almost £400 in credit.
Have noticed that usage has gone down since new combi boiler was installed the winter before last. Account is due to be reviewed in June.


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## equationgirl (Feb 25, 2022)

My recent bill (just paid) was over double the previous one. Not impressed.


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## bluescreen (Feb 25, 2022)

More than doubled.


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## MickiQ (Feb 25, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Have smart meter with British Gas. Current combined usage is £295 since 20th December 21. Currently paying £110 a month and account balance is almost £400 in credit.
> Have noticed that usage has gone down since new combi boiler was installed the winter before last. Account is due to be reviewed in June.


Mine (also BG) is £393 in credit  on leccy and £310 on gas that's because they log the credits to your account straightaway but your debits only when they issue a bill. On the predictions page on the website it tells me that I will (probably) be around £150 in the red on both when the bill falls due.
I'm currently paying £95 a month in electric and £68 per month in gas, the last bill statement back in Oct 2021 reckoned I was about £40 down on one and £27 down on the other so about rightish but based on the predictions above it's clearly not going to be come the next bill (April I think) . However Octoberish is when the number of adults in the Q household dropped from 5 to 2 so I am hoping that will be reflected come April but I suspect it won't be enough to stop my bills going up.


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## scalyboy (Feb 25, 2022)

£54 p/m to £83 p/m. Ecotricity


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## Raheem (Feb 25, 2022)

I'm still on a fixed tariff, but people with my supplier are getting their bills doubled when their deals end. Food prices also seem to be going up quite sharply now. Don't think we're really ready for 2022 as a country.


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## fucthest8 (Feb 25, 2022)

In case people haven't seen it, I was sent this by uSwitch the other day (who, yes, are still recommending you stick with your current supplier even if it's going onto their regular tarriff, cos there are no deals to be had)

My fixed deal ends March 3rd. Which means I get one month on the current cap, then in April ... boom! Look at those increases.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 25, 2022)

Dunno. I pay quarterly in arrears.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 25, 2022)

fucthest8 said:


> In case people haven't seen it, I was sent this by uSwitch the other day (who, yes, are still recommending you stick with your current supplier even if it's going onto their regular tarriff, cos there are no deals to be had)
> 
> My fixed deal ends March 3rd. Which means I get one month on the current cap, then in April ... boom! Look at those increases.
> 
> View attachment 311853


Why should the electricity standing charge go up so much?


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## platinumsage (Feb 25, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why should the electricity standing charge go up so much?



The cost of failed suppliers has been added to it. This was deemed the fairest way as lots of people don't have gas.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 25, 2022)

All our credit from last year has gone. We were kin of relying on it being warm by now so we could turn the heating off. 

Also we had two weeks with no hot water as the immersion heater had packed up. Somehow that didn't reduce our energy usage at all


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 25, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why should the electricity standing charge go up so much?



Because privatisation = customer choice = choose freely between freezing or starving.


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## MBV (Feb 25, 2022)

Also witb Bulb and got that email with:



I've already been trying to be more circumspect with my energy consumption.


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## scalyboy (Feb 25, 2022)

MBV said:


> Also witb Bulb and got that email with:
> 
> View attachment 311854
> 
> I've already been trying to be more circumspect with my energy consumption.


Me too; since WFH and especially since these price hikes I’ve got in the habit of wearing a thermal vest, thick pullover & frayed tweed jacket. I may look like an Oxbridge or Durham professor whose specialism is the Pelagian and other early Christian heretical movements in post-Romano-Celtic Britain, but it’s hopefully keeping the bills down. I’d wear my Crombie overcoat if I had to.

I used to argue with an ex because she liked to be in T-shirts indoors summer or winter. I used to say it’s not natural to wear a T-shirt in winter; she would say that’s what central heating is for. Wonder if she still feels the same way?


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## a_chap (Feb 25, 2022)

Have just had a letter from Eon saying our bill's going up by an estimated £700 per year.   

It reminded me of a time - long ago - when I received a quarterly electricity for £50. I was so incensed at such an enormous bill that I wrote and complained. And got a bill reduction! 👍


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## moochedit (Feb 25, 2022)

Yes SSE emailed me about this yesterday. Starting 1st April my gas direct debit goes up from £59 to £98 a month and my electric goes up from £45 to £64 a month!


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## nottsgirl (Feb 25, 2022)

I’m electric only, my direct debit is now £70/ month, we shall see what happens in April.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 25, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> The cost of failed suppliers has been added to it. This was deemed the fairest way as lots of people don't have gas.


 Ah. Thank you.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 25, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Because privatisation = customer choice = choose freely between freezing or starving.


Just piss off will you? Go and make your infantile political remarks elsewhere.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 25, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why should the electricity standing charge go up so much?



Because electricity comes from gas reactors.


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 25, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Because electricity comes from gas reactors.



That results in the unit price going up, not the standing charge.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 25, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That results in the unit price going up, not the standing charge.



Its all fucking bumf from a bunch of robbing cunts.


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## mentalchik (Feb 25, 2022)

Am on a fixed tariff til 2023 so hasn't changed much so far (about £100 per month for gas and electric)....do quarterly bills and always generally negoiate to pay in chunks (which they are always happy to do)


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## sheothebudworths (Feb 25, 2022)

editor said:


> For FUCK'S SAKE
> 
> View attachment 311826



The cost of your electricity/standing charge has actually risen by approx 1/3.
Not saying this is good! Just that it's different from what they are attempting to increase your monthly payment to.
On that basis I would call and agree to raising your monthly payment by £7, or so, to reflect the actual increase (assuming you don't have a debt that wouldn't usually even out over the year).

Prices were already due to rise again, too (and everything I have read says moving provider will likely leave you even worse off) - even withhout Ukraine thrown into the mix. 

I'm with Bulb, too -



> From 1 April, our prices will be increasing​We're increasing our electricity day unit rate from 23.965p to 33.100p per kWh and our night unit rate from 14.330p to 19.793p per kWh. Our electricity standing charge is increasing from 24.113p to 41.749p per day.
> 
> We're increasing our gas unit rate from 4.052p to 7.319p per kWh and standing charge from 26.112p to 27.219p per day.
> 
> These prices all include VAT at 5%.


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## editor (Feb 25, 2022)

sheothebudworths said:


> The cost of your electricity/standing charge has actually risen by approx 1/3.
> Not saying this is good! Just that it's different from what they are attempting to increase your monthly payment to.
> On that basis I would call and agree to raising your monthly payment by £7, or so, to reflect the actual increase (assuming you don't have a debt that wouldn't usually even out over the year).
> 
> ...


I'm wondering if the previous number was relatively low because I had a shitload of credit (that has now all vanished)


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## bcuster (Feb 25, 2022)

for comparison:  my average size, single family home electricity: $85 winter; $250 summer
i have natural gas for heating


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## donkyboy (Feb 25, 2022)

I'm paying £37 p/m for both gas and leccy with EDF. Current contract ends in July. I can see change tariff option but what is on offer is just fucking crazy


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## sheothebudworths (Feb 25, 2022)

editor said:


> I'm wondering if the previous number was relatively low because I had a shitload of credit (that has now all vanished)



Generally, you will pay a monthly amount which will build up over summer, when you use less, and be eaten up during winter months - so that might be what's happened.

Do you have a smart meter, or a bill that gives estimated readings?

I don't have a smart meter but I provide manual readings every month straight after I get my bill (with estimated readings) and it takes several years before they stop massively over calculating your your usage/holding your money.

If you don't have a smart meter, look at your last bill and the estimated meter readings, then read it yourself, to start with.

Your credit amount defo shouldn't have disappeared - there was a promise of that.

Saying all of that, I tried to reduce my monthly payments because I will be moving (at some point) and spent ages on the phone, with it being agreed, and then the DD carried on at the original amount. 

Sorry, I'm probably not being very helpful!


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 25, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why should the electricity standing charge go up so much?


Because our privatised services are designed to siphon as much money from us as absolutely possible to their shareholders.


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## campanula (Feb 25, 2022)

I have prepayment meters (dread). I haven't had to sit in the dark so far (electricity) but I definitely had a few gas-free days (lots of jumpers and a surfeit of toast). I have a decrepit old gasfire installed by the council, which I might remove and put a woodburner in, cos I have almost unlimited firewood. Which sadly reveals my committment to climate change behaviours to be horribly limited...although I am bang on with limiting washing machine usage. I would definitely choose heating over eating and am OK with the toast - but not totally inclined to wearing outdoor clothes indoors...plus my house is fucking freezing at the best of times). Have to keep the leccy going because of my plants (ahem)...and, as we all know, dope will get you through times of no money better than money getting you through times of no dope...


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## Riklet (Feb 25, 2022)

There is no way to avoid these rises as the cap is increasing so will be the same for all suppliers. There are no current discounts or promotions or incentives to change either. Octopus wouldnt even accept me as a new customer a few months back so im still with Bulb.

_"We're increasing our electricity unit rate from 21.596p to 28.408p per kWh and electricity standing charge from 25.653p to 51.625p per day.

We're increasing our gas unit rate from 4.196p to 7.476p per kWh and standing charge from 26.112p to 27.219p per day.

These prices all include VAT at 5%.

Based on your usage, we think you'll spend £5.71 more a week on your energy."_

So increase from ~£60 a month to £85 maybe £90. Almost 50%


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 25, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Just piss off will you? Go and make your infantile political remarks elsewhere.



It's not infantile at all. Lots of people are gonna be stuck between going cold and going hungry, lots more than already are. That's not least because energy, like everything else, has become just another thing for the private sector to cream a percentage off while adding nothing useful. It's also because Cameron's government kneecapped renewable energy development in this country to appease miserable NIMBY twats and fossil fuel lobbyists.

Just because you're not one of the people struggling doesn't mean they should just shut up and go away.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 25, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Because electricity comes from gas reactors.



Yes, of course, that too. Hadn't considered that.

When the mortgagee ended, I put the same amount of money each month into a spare account, for gas and electricity. It has bought a new boiler, paid all the bills, and is very healthy. For once in my life I made a good decision, it gets funded at £200.00 a month, so shouldn't be too much over that.


SpookyFrank said:


> It's not infantile at all. Lots of people are gonna be stuck between going cold and going hungry, lots more than already are. That's not least because energy, like everything else, has become just another thing for the private sector to cream a percentage off while adding nothing useful. It's also because Cameron's government kneecapped renewable energy development in this country to appease miserable NIMBY twats and fossil fuel lobbyists.
> 
> Just because you're not one of the people struggling doesn't mean they should just shut up and go away.



I'm going to mute you for a while Frank.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 25, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That results in the unit price going up, not the standing charge.



They split the price rise between the standing charge and the unit cost. That way you still get fucked over even if you switch everything off for the next six months.


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## bluescreen (Feb 25, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> <snippage>
> 
> I'm going to mute you for a while Frank.


This is surprising and unfair. Even on the Govt's own statistics from back in 2020,  there were an estimated 13.2 per cent of households (3.16 million) in fuel poverty in England. People were struggling with fuel bills back when they were less than half what they are now. And the bills are going to get a whole lot worse. This poverty doesn't go away if we close our eyes.

Don't be hard on Frank for being outraged about this when shareholders in fuel companies are still being richly rewarded.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 25, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> When the mortgagee ended, I put the same amount of money each month into a spare account, for gas and electricity. It has bought a new boiler, paid all the bills, and is very healthy. For once in my life I made a good decision, it gets funded at £200.00 a month, so shouldn't be too much over that.
> 
> 
> I'm going to mute you for a while Frank.



Won't mind me calling you a cunt then. Coming onto a thread about people struggling with bills and bragging about how you're not worried because you've got a sack of cash tucked away. Nobody's that fucking tone deaf, not even you.


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## weltweit (Feb 25, 2022)

I need to look into this. I have a key meter which I put money on at the local post office. I just put £50 on it today and the receipt just says Tarrfif ID 135. It doesn't even tell me which company I am buying my electricity from.


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## sheothebudworths (Feb 25, 2022)

Yeah, I mean I'm not sure what answer you were hoping for there to justify it all Sasaferrato or what other point you are making yourself?
It's really scary.


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## two sheds (Feb 25, 2022)

Am with ecotricity - they've always been a bit dearer but I didn't mind too much because I'd understood (I'll swear because they told me) that it was 100% renewable. I've discovered that they were one of the three suppliers that weren't limited to go above the government price cap because of this. 

Price now gone up by 30%. Private Eye a few weeks ago remarked that this was puzzling if they weren't tied to fossil fuels, so I contacted them and asked them about it very politely. Twice without hearing back so far.


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## WouldBe (Feb 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Price now gone up by 30%. Private Eye a few weeks ago remarked that this was puzzling if they weren't tied to fossil fuels, so I contacted them and asked them about it very politely. Twice without hearing back so far.


But aren't the prices of gas (and hence electricity) governed by the global market price?
Just as if we opened a new gas field the prices in the UK wouldn't fall.


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## two sheds (Feb 26, 2022)

True, but I'd understood that Ecotricity supplied all their power from (mainly) windpower so weren't affected by fossil fuel price rises. 

It seems not


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## oryx (Feb 26, 2022)

With Octopus and going up from £115 to £135 a month for dual fuel.

I agree completely with SpookyFrank and others' comments about privatisation of utilities, supplier greed and the ensuing poverty.


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## elbows (Feb 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> True, but I'd understood that Ecotricity supplied all their power from (mainly) windpower so weren't affected by fossil fuel price rises.
> 
> It seems not











						Energy bills: ‘I got a green deal, so why am I paying eye-watering sums?’
					

Some Britons on renewable energy deals promising green power face higher bills than standard tariffs




					www.theguardian.com


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## Petcha (Feb 26, 2022)

I'm in a very fortunate position where my bills are all included at a pretty reasonable price. But I really feel for others who aren't.

Martin Lewis is actually brilliant, and a very good dude besides that. I'm on his mailing list thing which is well worth signing up for, anyway this might be helpful.



			https://clubs.moneysavingexpert.com/cheapenergyclub


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## Epona (Feb 26, 2022)

We already barely ever put the heating on so the gas is just for hot water.
Leccy we do use a fair bit of (cooking and computer/TV mostly, and lighting, washing machine once a week) so I guess we might end up playing charades by candlelight by way of entertainment later on this year.
It's the standing charge rise that seems the most unfair, that's a nightmare for people who are already very frugal with their energy usage - and the only way to avoid that it seems is to ask to have the utility disconnected, which might become a real consideration for some folks.


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## spring-peeper (Feb 26, 2022)

bcuster said:


> for comparison:  my average size, single family home electricity: $85 winter; $250 summer
> i have natural gas for heating




Welcome to U75 bcuster
I'm assuming that your costs are US dollars.  Also, you are in the south.  

We are from Ontario and our electricity bill is $427 CAD a month.  Half of that is called "delivery charges".

That includes heating, cooking and hot water tank.

Our electricity company has to go to the government to get any increases.


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## Aladdin (Feb 26, 2022)

Electric Ireland announced an increase in *residential electricity prices by 9.3% and gas prices by 7%* with effect last 1st November 2021.
The government here is giving every home a one off payment of €200 off their energy bills.








						Every home to get €200 off energy bill as Cost of Living package announced
					

Government's cost of living plan worth close to half a billion unveiled, but opposition say it's not enough




					www.irishmirror.ie
				




Eta this will not cover much of the bills.


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## bimble (Feb 26, 2022)

It seems to be everything, I need to buy kerosene (heating oil) and it’s not far off double what it was last time I got the tank filled up. Will go for half a tank in case things get better in a few months.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Yes, of course, that too. Hadn't considered that.
> 
> When the mortgagee ended, I put the same amount of money each month into a spare account, for gas and electricity. It has bought a new boiler, paid all the bills, and is very healthy. For once in my life I made a good decision, it gets funded at £200.00 a month, so shouldn't be too much over that.
> 
> ...


God forbid people point out facts eh, you tone deaf cunt.


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## danski (Feb 26, 2022)

Epona said:


> We already barely ever put the heating on so the gas is just for hot water.
> Leccy we do use a fair bit of (cooking and computer/TV mostly, and lighting, washing machine once a week) so I guess we might end up playing charades by candlelight by way of entertainment later on this year.
> It's the standing charge rise that seems the most unfair, that's a nightmare for people who are already very frugal with their energy usage - and the only way to avoid that it seems is to ask to have the utility disconnected, which might become a real consideration for some folks.


Don’t worry too much about the computer, tv and lighting (if you have led bulbs). Their consumption is very little. Still some but nothing compared to ovens and other heating appliances, although fan assisted ovens are better than old plain electric.


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## Aladdin (Feb 26, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Because privatisation = customer choice = choose freely between freezing or starving.



Agree. 
We chose eating. Groceries are up average €35 per week. 
We are not using the heating as much as 12 months ago. It is now only used if we are really cold. 
Just wearing extra layers of clothing and putting extra blankets on the bed. 
Very aware that 83 year olds need to be kept warm. But my dad turns down the thernostat all the time so its not kicking in unless the tenp is between 10 and 15 degrees. Which always feels colder than expected.


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## dessiato (Feb 26, 2022)

I’m dreading the bills in Scotland. At least here the government capped the price rises so it’s not hit us too hard compared to there. The bills over there are already massive compared to our Spanish bills, add to that the increasing fuel costs…

I‘m thinking of opening up the fireplaces. Admittedly this will only heat one room, but, if we keep the other rooms on a minimum setting on the central heating it might not be too bad. It might also be worth looking at getting the Rayburn reconnected and converted. It was oil fired. We are never going to use oil again.


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## NoXion (Feb 26, 2022)

I think I got a letter in the last couple of months from SSE informing me that my electricity would cost me more. I remember not being too happy about it. Mind you, I'm on a pre-paid meter and I only really seem to cane the electricity if I dare to switch on the crappy wall-mounted electric space heaters I have in my flat. Otherwise the cost is bearable.


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## Biddlybee (Feb 26, 2022)

My fixed term ends in 2 weeks 

Current annual usage: £592
New estimate: £1,408


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2022)

bcuster said:


> for comparison:  my average size, single family home electricity: $85 winter; $250 summer
> i have natural gas for heating


is the extra in summer for aircon?


----------



## Aladdin (Feb 26, 2022)

dessiato said:


> I’m dreading the bills in Scotland. At least here the government capped the price rises so it’s not hit us too hard compared to there. The bills over there are already massive compared to our Spanish bills, add to that the increasing fuel costs…
> 
> I‘m thinking of opening up the fireplaces. Admittedly this will only heat one room, but, if we keep the other rooms on a minimum setting on the central heating it might not be too bad. It might also be worth looking at getting the Rayburn reconnected and converted. It was oil fired. We are never going to use oil again.



We are taking out the gas fire contraption (I've no idea what I'm talking about but you know what I mean) and setting a grate instead.

Also we have a gas hob. So we are getting a 2 ring electric portable thing.  Just in case shit gets real and gas is cut.

The house has its pluses being well insulated since the dreadfully cold winter of 2010 and there is double glazing.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> God forbid people point out facts eh, you tone deaf cunt.


Fuck off shitstain.

We are both retired, our income is being eroded by inflation, which cannot be offset by changing job, or working more hours.

We don't eat out, or buy Starbucks etc, we live very simply.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2022)

dessiato said:


> I’m dreading the bills in Scotland. At least here the government capped the price rises so it’s not hit us too hard compared to there. The bills over there are already massive compared to our Spanish bills, add to that the increasing fuel costs…
> 
> I‘m thinking of opening up the fireplaces. Admittedly this will only heat one room, but, if we keep the other rooms on a minimum setting on the central heating it might not be too bad. It might also be worth looking at getting the Rayburn reconnected and converted. It was oil fired. We are never going to use oil again.


I've been going the other way. When I moved in the Rayburn which originally was solid fuel was oil fired but I had it converted back to burn wood. However I've been reading about particulate emissions both inside and outside the house so I'm using it as little as possible. (I've got a load of wood that needs using up so I'm doing that but then will try to just use the fan heater when I need it and induction hob and air fryer for cooking.) 

It's been incredibly mild in Cornwall this winter so I've been fine with the fan heater for four hours or so in the evening. It's actually worked out cheaper I think with a double load of wood costing £150. Prices liable to go up because it's all supposed to be air dried now (I'm not sure how much that'll help since they use gas to dry it out) and factor in the chimney sweeping £60 once a year. 

You might be better keeping the chimney blocked and insulating the fuck out of where you're going. I've done as much as I can with that in an old house (draughtproofing and insulating wallpaper and secondary glazing with thick curtains) and I'm tempted by a heat pump for next year. I'd have to try to make the place more airtight though.


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Fuck off shitstain.
> 
> We are both retired, our income is being eroded by inflation, which cannot be offset by changing job, or working more hours.
> 
> We don't eat out, or buy Starbucks etc, we live very simply.



What about your mini PC that you bought for how much? Close to a grand?

How simple a life you lead.


----------



## dessiato (Feb 26, 2022)

A propos the comments and suggestions about the house in Scotland.

It’s a very old house, it’s been in the family for several generations. Because it’s listed we can’t change the windows, but have secondary glazing, which helps. The walls are very thick, I’d estimate at least 30cm. The single biggest issue, in my opinion, is the amount of restrictions on it for improving it. The connected outbuildings are dreadful for leaking heat. One has a broken window that can’t be replaced because we can’t find anyone to make one. Listed building.

I‘d like to convert the stable, but the cost…

We‘re getting a friend who is an architect, and lecturer in green/sustainability building, to look and see what can be done to improve the situation.


----------



## magneze (Feb 26, 2022)

Bulb are proposing to more than double our monthly payments. Going into summer, this just seems stupid and greedy.


----------



## StoneRoad (Feb 26, 2022)

two sheds 

Air dried - takes about a year for 1" of thickness to fully season, by natural airflow. This is for "rough sawn timber" but the same calculation applies to logs & offcuts. Add a bit for "bark on" and take a bit off for large surface area.

Kiln drying - using a source of heat to dry out the sap, takes a much shorter length of time and can be "forced" but that process uses either gas burners or electric heat and fans for airflow management. Not especially environmentally friendly.

I've got sticks and logs already stacked to air dry, but need far more if I'm going to use our log burner more often. Currently, burning some deadfall and thin stuff pruned off a couple of years ago.
The fresher stuff will be for next year, or burning in very windy conditions when the fire is very hot. Still doesn't lay a smoke screen I'm pleased to say.


----------



## StoneRoad (Feb 26, 2022)

dessiato said:


> A propos the comments and suggestions about the house in Scotland.
> 
> It’s a very old house, it’s been in the family for several generations. Because it’s listed we can’t change the windows, but have secondary glazing, which helps. The walls are very thick, I’d estimate at least 30cm. The single biggest issue, in my opinion, is the amount of restrictions on it for improving it. The connected outbuildings are dreadful for leaking heat. One has a broken window that can’t be replaced because we can’t find anyone to make one. Listed building.
> 
> ...




Dimensions, please. By PM. and I'll tell you how much. - presume sash not casement ?

[This is one of the side-lines of my business, and two of the team have just been doing windows for a farmhouse!]


----------



## dessiato (Feb 26, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Dimensions, please. By PM. and I'll tell you how much. - presume sash not casement ?
> 
> [This is one of the side-lines of my business, and two of the team have just been doing windows for a farmhouse!]


I’m back in Spain, but when I get back to Scotland I’ll have a look and be in touch.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

B.I.G said:


> What about your mini PC that you bought for how much? Close to a grand?
> 
> How simple a life you lead.


Which will last a goodly number of years. Things die, they get replaced. Buy cheap, buy twice.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 26, 2022)

Ours was £58 per month (dual) with People’s Energy. It’s now £131 pm with British Gas. 

We were allocated British Gas by the ombudsman. But we’re £500 in credit due to sleight of hand.  We were threatened with sheriff officers during the change over! There was no transparency about how much we owed or what the new tariff would be and they scared us into paying a lump sum.

I’ve been trying to follow Martin Lewis’ advice but it can get a bit technical.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 26, 2022)

Remember everyone, _just stop drinking at Starbucks and work more hours_, and all these problems are over. Sasaferrato says so, and he’s defiantly not an old reactionary Tory, so it must be true.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Remember everyone, _just stop drinking at Starbucks and work more hours_, and all these problems are over. Sasaferrato says so, and he’s defiantly not an old reactionary Tory, so it must be true.


Piss off.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2022)

Yes does sound strange using gas to dry the wood StoneRoad I've been puzzled about that but thinking about it reducing particulates is the main thing.

Once I've used up the bought wood I'll try to get by for the couple of months in winter with wood I collect from the garden and round abouts. I've been using the rayburn over the last week and it does warm up the upstairs noticeably with the warm air going up there. As I say I'm thinking of heat pump. I'm not sure where though. Either downstairs in the kitchen (but would need to make the house a bit more airtight) or upstairs where I spend my time at night.

I'm trying to work out how long I'd need the heat pump on if I have it downstairs. A kg of wood produces about 4kW. I have to weigh it but I probably use 5 kg of an evening (wild estimate) which would mean say 6 hours for a 3kW heat pump so 6 units a night topped up with fan heater if I needed it. So £14 a week for say four months or £240 which wouldn't be too bad assuming I'm not way off with the 5 kg. I shall go and weigh a load at some point.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes does sound strange using gas to dry the wood StoneRoad I've been puzzled about that but thinking about it reducing particulates is the main thing.
> 
> Once I've used up the bought wood I'll try to get by for the couple of months in winter with wood I collect from the garden and round abouts. I've been using the rayburn over the last week and it does warm up the upstairs noticeably with the warm air going up there. As I say I'm thinking of heat pump. I'm not sure where though. Either downstairs in the kitchen (but would need to make the house a bit more airtight) or upstairs where I spend my time at night.
> 
> I'm trying to work out how long I'd need the heat pump on if I have it downstairs. A kg of wood produces about 4kW. I have to weigh it but I probably use 5 kg of an evening (wild estimate) which would mean say 6 hours for a 3kW heat pump so 6 units a night topped up with fan heater if I needed it. So £14 a week for say four months or £240 which wouldn't be too bad assuming I'm not way off with the 5 kg. I shall go and weigh a load at some point.



How long does it take to recoup the cost of the heat pump?  Indeed, what would it cost you to install a heat pump?


----------



## WouldBe (Feb 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes does sound strange using gas to dry the wood StoneRoad I've been puzzled about that but thinking about it reducing particulates is the main thing.


Are particulates really that bad?
Wood is carbon 'neutral' unlike elec or gas and elec is always more expensive than gas so using a fan heater or heat pump might be more costly.


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Which will last a goodly number of years. Things die, they get replaced. Buy cheap, buy twice.



Your previous one still worked no?

Anyway you are an ignorant cunt. So hopefully you die of the cold.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Are particulates really that bad?



Yes:









						Wood burners emit more particle pollution than traffic, UK data shows
					

Revised government data estimates a lower proportion of pollution comes from wood stoves but they remain a ‘major contributor’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

B.I.G said:


> Your previous one still worked no?
> 
> Anyway you are an ignorant cunt. So hopefully you die of the cold.


Post reported.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 26, 2022)

B.I.G said:


> Your previous one still worked no?
> 
> Anyway you are an ignorant cunt. So hopefully you die of the cold.



Calling a poster a cunt is one thing, but hoping they die is bang out of order.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Calling a poster a cunt is one thing, but hoping they die is bang out of order.


The odious cunt is on ignore, and post reported. This may be the first or second post I've reported in 19 years on here.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> How long does it take to recoup the cost of the heat pump?  Indeed, what would it cost you to install a heat pump?


Air-to-air heat pump I'm thinking of would be about £700 I think so would repay in about 3 years if my figures for electricity usage above are right (and they may well not be, and eleccy prices liable to go up too). It's difficult to compare though because I wouldn't have a fan heater on downstairs for a comparable time. 

I've been using the 1 kW fan heater next to me for about 4-5 hours a night upstairs with no Rayburn. So that's about £160 for the four months but a heat pump downstairs would be heating all the upstairs assuming it doesn't just leak out of the building fabric.

The ones I was looking at were portable but you have an adapter kit to bring air through a window, they started at about £500 but problem with them (as pointed out by a wise urbanite) is noise. Better is an outdoor/indoor unit although a bit more expensive.  I'll have to look at it in detail in late summer, and I might be wildly out with all of the above.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Air-to-air heat pump I'm thinking of would be about £700 I think so would repay in about 3 years if my figures for electricity usage above are right (and they may well not be, and eleccy prices liable to go up too). It's difficult to compare though because I wouldn't have a fan heater on downstairs for a comparable time.
> 
> I've been using the 1 kW fan heater next to me for about 4-5 hours a night upstairs with no Rayburn. So that's about £160 for the four months but a heat pump downstairs would be heating all the upstairs assuming it doesn't just leak out of the building fabric.
> 
> The ones I was looking at were portable but you have an adapter kit to bring air through a window, they started at about £500 but problem with them (as pointed out by a wise urbanite) is noise. Better is an outdoor/indoor unit although a bit more expensive.  I'll have to look at it in detail in late summer, and I might be wildly out with all of the above.



Please keep us posted, I know bugger all about heat pumps, and had seen many thousands quoted as the cost of ground source, I didn't realise that there were different types.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Are particulates really that bad?
> Wood is carbon 'neutral' unlike elec or gas and elec is always more expensive than gas so using a fan heater or heat pump might be more costly.


I really hadn't realized how bad they are, but there have been recent articles, eg: Wood burning at home now biggest cause of UK particle pollution

Apparently theyr'e released every time you open the burner door, and released all the time with an open fire. I've not noticed them but I do get asthma so they're a bad idea for me particularly. 

With COP of 3 a heat pump will hopefully be comparable with gas heating costs - or is gas more than three times as cheap? No gas where I am anyway.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Please keep us posted, I know bugger all about heat pumps, and had seen many thousands quoted as the cost of ground source, I didn't realise that there were different types.


Yes ground source cost ten grand or so. There's air source for heating your hot water radiators (air to water heat pump) but they're relatively low temperature so only worthwhile if you've got really well insulated house - works well with underfloor heating apparently but which in my case I have not got. 

I'm looking at air-to-air. As I say you can get indoor ones for £500 or so with a kit to take the air pipe out the window. I did see there's a possibility of legionnaire's with them but I don't know whether that's right. 

Better are the ones with external unit having the compressor - then quiet operation inside. They cost more but I think you can get them for £700 or so. I can't really knock a hole through the wall though because it's rab (stone/clay/stone) and apparently you knock a 5-inch wide hole from the inside and you get a 2-foot hole on the outside. So either through a window or I do have a vent going outside in my room upstairs.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2022)

Am also with Ecotricity so was assuming my supply was renewable, although with recent price rises I'm not so fucking sure particularly as they're not answering my questions about it. 

I just weighed some wood and apparently I burn around 600 newtons of wood a night.  That's what's on the scale but that converts to 60kg which is nonsense. I'll try and find some other scales. 

Sorry I'm largely thinking out loud here.


----------



## gentlegreen (Feb 26, 2022)

According to my calculations - also on Bulb - and I hadn't even noticed my spreadsheet was using old tariffs ...
Based on this relatively mild winter, my electricity costs will increase by about £1 a day in winter and 75p in summer - I foolishly pay gas standing charge even though I have nothing that burns gas ...


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Am also with Ecotricity so was assuming my supply was renewable, although with recent price rises I'm not so fucking sure particularly as they're not answering my questions about it.
> 
> I just weighed some wood and apparently I burn around 600 newtons of wood a night.  That's what's on the scale but that converts to 60kg which is nonsense. I'll try and find some other scales.
> 
> Sorry I'm largely thinking out loud here.



Those Ecotricity scammers are charging nearly double the capped standard variable tariff.

I suggest switching suppliers. You could use a massive amount of electric heating with the difference in cost, instead of faffing about burning wood and deluding yourself you're being green.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Those Ecotricity scammers are charging nearly double the capped standard variable tariff.
> 
> I suggest switching suppliers. You could use a massive amount of electric heating with the difference in cost, instead of faffing about burning wood and deluding yourself you're being green.


As noted they're one of three suppliers that weren't capped - because they're largely using renewable sources. 

Interested to see figures to back up what you've said.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> As noted they're one of three suppliers that weren't capped - because they're largely using renewable sources.
> 
> Interested to see figures to back up what you've said.



Just look at tariffs for yourself, and also check which other major suppliers offer renewable tariffs. 

I've mentioned this to you before so I can only conclude you think Ecotricity's CEO owner is too poor to get by without your regular support.


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Just piss off will you? Go and make your infantile political remarks elsewhere.





spring-peeper said:


> Welcome to U75 bcuster
> I'm assuming that your costs are US dollars.  Also, you are in the south.
> 
> We are from Ontario and our electricity bill is $427 CAD a month.  Half of that is called "delivery charges".
> ...


Is the delivery cost because of hydro and nukes?  I don’t know enough about the Ontario energy mix, but where you have a lot renewables like wind or hydro and a lot  of nukes where there are no ( actually some but tiny) marginal costs for generation an electrical system needs to be priced much more like a mobile phone network- to over simplify you have to pay to cover the busiest half hour of the year and everything else is ‘free’. So you pay for the wind farms, dams, nuclear plants, transmission lines, transformers etc no matter how much energy is moving. This will be the IK model in about 20 years with wind and nukes. And National Grid were kind of there in the first nine months or so of the pandemic.

Mind you if half of Ontario’s power comes from gas and coal then I’m t  as liking rubbish…


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Just look at tariffs for yourself, and also check which other major suppliers offer renewable tariffs.
> 
> I've mentioned this to you before so I can only conclude you think Ecotricity's CEO owner is too poor to get by without your regular support.


Renewable tariffs are a proper scam though aren't they. 









						Energy suppliers claim to sell '100% renewable' electricity without producing any green power
					

Majority of providers purchase certificates to ensure that the power they supply is matched up with zero-carbon sources; but Which? claims some customers are in the dark about what they're buying




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> Some companies buy the certificates to match up the energy they supply with green energy generated. Others go a step further and generate renewable electricity themselves or buy it from those that do, rather than relying on REGO certificates.
> 
> Both Ecotricity and Good Energy source enough renewable electricity to match their customers’ usage, but this tends to mean their costs are higher and therefore their tariffs are more expensive.
> 
> ...



You may be right, but as I recall last time you just made a similar pronouncement and didn't actually back it up. I'm happy to be corrected but you'll need to provide some figures not just "go and do your own research".


----------



## gentlegreen (Feb 26, 2022)

I'm with Bulb.
I've used 3597 units in the past year.
At old prices that would be 3597 x 0.21596 = £776.81 + 365 x 0.25653 = £95.63 = £870.44 = £2.38 per day = £72.50 per month
At new prices = £1,021.83 + £188.43 = £1210.26 per year = £3.31 per day = £100.86 per month
An increase of 98p per day / £358 per year / £29.80 per month  or approx 41 percent.

Winter months 1326 units over 107 days = 12.4 per day x 0.28408 = £3.52 per day + 79p standing charges = £4.31 per day - x 30 = £129 per month.


I just checked and I've got my credit down to 185.78 so my February bill will take me down to about £50 - so time to raise my monthly payment - or top-up ...


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Renewable tariffs are a proper scam though aren't they.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All renewable tariffs are, to the extent that they fail to influence the inputs to the UK grid.

You're the one paying, and if you can't be bothered to check your self-acknowledged premium tariff against regular suppliers then why should you expect anyone to do that for you 

Hopefully my posts will warn others who think that signing up to Ecotricity is worth it for any reason.


----------



## ash (Feb 26, 2022)

😮☹️ this is ours!! Annual not monthly 


Your current tariff: Flexible 6 Direct Debit ebill​£1,438​Your new tariff: Flexible 7​£2,165​Increase in cost​£727​


----------



## elbows (Feb 26, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> All renewable tariffs are, to the extent that they fail to influence the inputs to the UK grid.



Dont Ecotricity influence the inputs by actually investing a fair chunk of their money in genuinely new renewable inputs to the grid?

In some other aspects I am not a fan of theirs at all, but they are at least doing something on the generation side of things, rather than just playing with numbers on paper like some of the others.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2022)

elbows said:


> Dont Ecotricity influence the inputs by actually investing a fair chunk of their money in genuinely new renewable inputs to the grid?



All the big suppliers do this to a much greater extent than Ecotricity, without charging a gouging premium. Ultimately though, renewable input is governed by government energy policy and subsidies, and the availability or otherwise of alternatives for when the weather is sub-optimal.

The fact two hats was surprised at Ecotricity raising prices in accordance with the increase in wholesale gas costs just shows how successful Ecotricity's marketing is for some people. No you don't buy renewable electricity from them, you sponsor them selling it at market price and charging you above-market price.


----------



## spring-peeper (Feb 26, 2022)

A380 said:


> Is the delivery cost because of hydro and nukes?  I don’t know enough about the Ontario energy mix, but where you have a lot renewables like wind or hydro and a lot  of nukes where there are no ( actually some but tiny) marginal costs for generation an electrical system needs to be priced much more like a mobile phone network- to over simplify you have to pay to cover the busiest half hour of the year and everything else is ‘free’. So you pay for the wind farms, dams, nuclear plants, transmission lines, transformers etc no matter how much energy is moving. This will be the IK model in about 20 years with wind and nukes. And National Grid were kind of there in the first nine months or so of the pandemic.
> 
> Mind you if half of Ontario’s power comes from gas and coal then I’m t  as liking rubbish…



My electricity comes from Quebec, so it is hydro.

The delivery is calculated on distance and the cost  is to compensate for the electricity that is lost during its journey to me and for maintenance of the poles, wires and other infrastructure costs.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> All the big suppliers do this to a much greater extent than Ecotricity, without charging a gouging premium.



Any figures to back this up rather than just your opinion? 

Again, Ecotricity rates are higher because they're actually investing in building renewable supplies which is going to be more expensive than just buying gas. They're one of only three suppliers who weren't subject to the price cap because they're supplying energy from renewable supplies. Where's the evidence that they're ripping customers off? Again, you may be right but if you're making such extreme accusations you need to back them up.


----------



## elbows (Feb 26, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> The fact two hats was surprised at Ecotricity raising prices in accordance with the increase in wholesale gas costs just shows how successful Ecotricity's marketing is for some people. No you don't buy renewable electricity from them, you sponsor them selling it at market price and charging you above-market price.



Certainly its a shame that many consumers dont understand how the system works, eg that the nature of the grid means these companies are not supplying renewable-generated electricity directly to their customers. That Guardian article I posted last night goes on about this a bit.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Any figures to back this up rather than just your opinion?
> 
> Again, Ecotricity rates are higher because they're actually investing in building renewable supplies which is going to be more expensive than just buying gas. They're one of only three suppliers who weren't subject to the price cap because they're supplying energy from renewable supplies. Where's the evidence that they're ripping customers off? Again, you may be right but if you're making such extreme accusations you need to back them up.



I gave you figures for renewable investment and generation projects by the big suppliers last time we did this, and their renewable tariffs are no higher than the standard cap. 🤷


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

elbows said:


> Dont Ecotricity influence the inputs by actually investing a fair chunk of their money in genuinely new renewable inputs to the grid?
> 
> In some other aspects I am not a fan of theirs at all, but they are at least doing something on the generation side of things, rather than just playing with numbers on paper like some of the others.


It’s all numbers on paper really. With no meaningful energy  storage  ( batteries and pumped storage like Dinorwic are about making the system more efficient) electricity isn’t really a commodity, even though we treat it as one and the markets are set up to look like commodity markets. Production needs to balance supply in real time.  All of the anologies about gas or pumping water are just that. Analogies; useful for thinking about concepts but not actually reflecting the physics of what happens. The two models for keeping a system going with lots on non firm renewables on it are certificates of firm power - the French do this - and Capacity Markets which we , a few other European countries and most American synchronous areas use.

Unless you had a private wire - like some big users have- it isn’t he case that electricity from power station X goes to consumer Y. That’s not how a grid works. It’s more like every generator keeping a bottle filled so you can drink from the top of it.

This is one reason subsidies for UK solar have gone through the floor. Given current engineering, and non controlled local distribution networks compared to the managed national grid  there is ‘too much’ solar on our system. This causes problems on windy sunny low demand days and is one of the reasons we need urgent reform of the distribution networks.


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 26, 2022)

Housemate bought a load of smokeless solid fuel, turns out it's going to be cheaper to heat the hovel with that rather than gas

I'm going to make a concerted effort to stock up with as much free wood as I can this summer


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

When you look at the live generation figures, there are times when the 'green' companies shouldn't be selling electricity at all. 

We drove back from the Ayrshire coast one frosty morning, and counted 106 turbines standing still.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Housemate bought a load of smokeless solid fuel, turns out it's going to be cheaper to heat the hovel with that rather than gas
> 
> I'm going to make a concerted effort to stock up with as much free wood as I can this summer



My SIL on Islay has a peat bank, the living room fire heats the radiators and the hot water. It's one of those airtight thingies, burns incredibly efficiently.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> When you look at the live generation figures, there are times when the 'green' companies shouldn't be selling electricity at all.
> 
> We drove back from the Ayrshire coast one frosty morning, and counted 106 turbines standing still.



Exactly. People can only pay for "100% renewable electricity" on their bills if they're supported by other people paying for a realistic mix.


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Housemate bought a load of smokeless solid fuel, turns out it's going to be cheaper to heat the hovel with that rather than gas
> 
> I'm going to make a concerted effort to stock up with as much free wood as I can this summer


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Exactly. People can only pay for "100% renewable electricity" on their bills if they're supported by other people paying for a realistic mix.


That really isn’t how it works.


----------



## dessiato (Feb 26, 2022)

B.I.G said:


> Your previous one still worked no?
> 
> Anyway you are an ignorant cunt. So hopefully you die of the cold.


That's unnecessarily nasty


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2022)

A380 said:


> That really isn’t how it works.



It is though.


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> When you look at the live generation figures, there are times when the 'green' companies shouldn't be selling electricity at all.
> 
> We drove back from the Ayrshire coast one frosty morning, and counted 106 turbines standing still.


There are times when the ‘price’ of electricity is negative. That’s kind of ( although not really) the whole basis of the demand side response (DSR) industry. Which is nowhere near as big as it needs to be.


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> It is though.


Ok, i’d love to hear your explanation of how electricity dispatch ordering  works then? With or without a capacity market.


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> My SIL on Islay has a peat bank, the living room fire heats the radiators and the hot water. It's one of those airtight thingies, burns incredibly efficiently.


When I moved in all there was was open fires. Installed gas combi with loads of rads at slight overspec. Gas has been good for years and with a stove/logburner thing in the living room mainly for effect or decorative purposes, its fine. I'm just surprised that turning off the CH and firing up the stove has turned out to be an alternative cost wise.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2022)

A380 said:


> Ok, i’d love to hear your explanation of how electricity dispatch ordering  works then?



How is that relevant 

I'm talking about the impossibility of every household in the country signing up to Ecotricity:

"Our electricity is 100% green – made from the sun, the wind and the sea. We generate about 20% of it ourselves and the rest is certified green energy we buy from other green generators or via the wholesale market."


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 26, 2022)

A380 said:


> View attachment 311952


Exactly! How can it be, the least sensible option, costing the lowest. I'm poor so got to go with what I got.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

A380 said:


> There are times when the ‘price’ of electricity is negative. That’s kind of ( although not really) the whole basis of the demand side response (DSR) industry. Which is nowhere near as big as it needs to be.



Wind electricity producers are paid at times not to produce, which is daft. Use the spare capacity to make hydrogen.


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> How is that relevant
> 
> I'm talking about the impossibility of every household in the country signing up to Ecotricity:
> 
> "Our electricity is 100% green – made from the sun, the wind and the sea. We generate about 20% of it ourselves and the rest is certified green energy we buy from other green generators or via the wholesale market."


They couldn’t sell to 100% of the market obviously. That’s the fudemental issue at the heart of energy reform. It’s a fairly simple concept. What they offer is a premium for people who want to go above the charges for Contacts for Diffence ( nukes and wind mostly) and the CM ( solving the ‘missing money’ issue of large scale non-firm renewables on a system) that everyone pays as part of their standing charge. 

The  trouble is that hardly anyone takes the time, not much actually, to understand how the energy system works.


----------



## StoneRoad (Feb 26, 2022)

Or send the spare power over to a pumped storage scheme and top off the upper reservoir.
I know we [the UK] only have a limited number of PS sites, but making better use would be a good tactic.

Plus, retro fit places like Cow Green with a microHEP plant.


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 26, 2022)

I don't suppose anyone's ever thought about having the power owned by the state to keep the price down have they.


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Wind electricity producers are paid at times not to produce, which is daft. Use the spare capacity to make hydrogen.


TBF turning off wind has only happens few times. Hydrogen production might be a solution, or it might not, I’d favour ammonia. Neither  are deliverable in the next 15 years despite what the fancy brochures and web sites say. For the UK probably a few more nukes, loads more wind and bucket load more DSR and the new interconnectors coukd probably do the job. Until of course we finally wean our selves of gas for heating and the whole things needs to be multiplied by five.

Everyone focuses on electricity, including governments, FOUR times as much energy is transported over the gas network in the winter….


----------



## StoneRoad (Feb 26, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> I don't suppose anyone's ever thought about having the power owned by the state to keep the price down have they.



And make decisions on environmental grounds, not profit-generation ability [opps]


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Or send the spare power over to a pumped storage scheme and top off the upper reservoir.
> I know we [the UK] only have a limited number of PS sites, but making better use would be a good tactic.
> 
> Plus, retro fit places like Cow Green with a microHEP plant.


That’s about 4 hours of generation and 12 mins if UK supply taken care of. When they are all on line.

And the big ones only exist because we needed them to balence the nuclear plants tripping, and we only really built the nukes because we needed them for the weapons program… the TV pickup (as was) benifits were just a bonus.


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> I don't suppose anyone's ever thought about having the power owned by the state to keep the price down have they.


What some kind of Central board for the generation of electricity? Nah, never catch on…


----------



## 2hats (Feb 26, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> The fact two hats


Not me. Needs more fact checking.


----------



## Dandred (Feb 26, 2022)

The joys of Brexit.....


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

A380 said:


> What some kind of Central bard for the generation of electricity? Nah, never catch on…



I can see this happening.

The rising costs are going to lead to a rising number of 'failures to pay the bill'. It would be political suicide to allow the energy companies to drag tens of thousands of people into court. Re-nationalisation may be the outcome.


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> I don't suppose anyone's ever thought about having the power owned by the state to keep the price down have they.


Take two. Re Nationalisation has already happened…

Of course about 2/3 of our generation is state owned. It’s just that it’s the French (EDF) and German (RWE) states that own it and use our bills to subsidise their customers. A bit like our (foreign) state owned railways really….

Another case of the Tories - and Labour a bit too- hiding their shit policy decisions behind lies about what the EU would permit…


----------



## Epona (Feb 26, 2022)

danski said:


> Don’t worry too much about the computer, tv and lighting (if you have led bulbs). Their consumption is very little. Still some but nothing compared to ovens and other heating appliances, although fan assisted ovens are better than old plain electric.



Unfortunately our leccy bill is currently (before price rises) about £75-80 a month which is quite high - cooker is almost certainly what accounts for a good portion of that, but the PC isn't inconsiderable as it's a gaming rig with a shit ton of fans and is on a lot of the time I am awake and at home, I estimate that currently accounts for at least £20 a month of the bill.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2022)

My gran has gone from £5 to £58 a month, direct debit. Outrageous.


----------



## klang (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Fuck off shitstain.
> 
> We are both retired, our income is being eroded by inflation, which cannot be offset by changing job, or working more hours.


Didn't know bees was retired? 
If so, congratulations, beesonthewhatnow


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

These prices aren’t really going to come down even after the current ‘crisis’.

In the long term that’s good for the environment, as it will make reduction more attractive and drive renewables even more. It’s analogous to how the oil crisis moved us away from oil…

But it’s really going to badly hurt lots and lots of people in the short term.


----------



## Epona (Feb 26, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> My gran has gone from £5 to £58 a month, direct debit. Outrageous.



I'm assuming this is due mostly to standing charge increase - which punishes frugal/low use energy users (often those who would already struggle with pre-price rise bills) disproportionately.

My gas costs (pre-payment card) used to be £50 a year until they scrapped the low usage tariff I was on and put me on a tariff with lower per-unit cost and a daily standing charge, which at the time increased my annual costs to £150.  Now that is doubling again - and I'm still barely using any gas, actually less than before when I could afford to put the heating on occasionally instead of paying mostly for standing charges.  If I had any other way of having hot water coming out of the taps/shower, I'd have it disconnected.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2022)

dessiato said:


> A propos the comments and suggestions about the house in Scotland.
> 
> It’s a very old house, it’s been in the family for several generations. Because it’s listed we can’t change the windows, but have secondary glazing, which helps. The walls are very thick, I’d estimate at least 30cm. The single biggest issue, in my opinion, is the amount of restrictions on it for improving it. The connected outbuildings are dreadful for leaking heat. One has a broken window that can’t be replaced because we can’t find anyone to make one. Listed building.
> 
> ...


There will be things that can be done. In the meantime, can you board up the broken window? That's not an unreasonable thing to do, even for a listed building, to prevent weather damage or someone breaking in.

Do the windows have any shutters inside? That's a traditional way of covering the window and they can be opened every morning.

I would anticipate that you can insulate the roof space from the inside, which will help.

But get used to wearing more layers inside in Scotland compared to Spain. Jumpers are your friend.


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

I mentioned elsewhere mine has gone from c £180 a month to £630 ( yes you read that right) . And no, I don’t live in a castle… there are a couple of special factors arround that but that’s the new reality….


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Wind electricity producers are paid at times not to produce, which is daft. Use the spare capacity to make hydrogen.


Please go and read about the energy industry. Please.

Wind turbines can only operate within a certain envelope. Too slow wind and no electricity is generated, too high winds and the turbines can be damaged.

Constraint management is necessary because the grid cannot store excess electricity in great quantities and it's also easier to turn off windfarms than it is to power down a nuclear plant. 

The infrastructure is not set up for storing or using large amounts of hydrogen, and there's certainly no hydrogen grid yet. So it's not really safe to have large amounts of hydrogen sitting about, when there's no way currently to use large amounts safely.


----------



## bcuster (Feb 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> is the extra in summer for aircon?


Yes


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> Please go and read about the energy industry. Please.
> 
> Wind turbines can only operate within a certain envelope. Too slow wind and no electricity is generated, too high winds and the turbines can be damaged.
> 
> ...



Now.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> Please go and read about the energy industry. Please.
> 
> Wind turbines can only operate within a certain envelope. Too slow wind and no electricity is generated, too high winds and the turbines can be damaged.
> 
> ...



All plans to decarbonise the UK grid involve hydrogen, so if it doesn't deliver we'd better pin our hopes on something else pretty quickly.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 26, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Remember everyone, _just stop drinking at Starbucks and work more hours_, and all these problems are over. Sasaferrato says so, and he’s defiantly not an old reactionary Tory, so it must be true.


Sass the long lost relative of Kirstie Allsopp


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2022)

I'nm not disputed hydrogen is part of the decarbonisation plans (all forms: green, blue and grey) just the oversimplification without taking things like infrastructure readiness into account platinumsage .


----------



## dessiato (Feb 26, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> There will be things that can be done. In the meantime, can you board up the broken window? That's not an unreasonable thing to do, even for a listed building, to prevent weather damage or someone breaking in.
> 
> Do the windows have any shutters inside? That's a traditional way of covering the window and they can be opened every morning.
> 
> ...


When I was there a week ago I had ski thermals on, essential outside.


----------



## nagapie (Feb 26, 2022)

I haven't read all 6 pages but this might be a good place to ask. My gas and electricity company want to put in a smart meter but I've no idea if this would help or disadvantage me.


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> I'nm not disputed hydrogen is part of the decarbonisation plans (all forms: green, blue and grey) just the oversimplification without taking things like infrastructure readiness into account platinumsage .


It's all part of being a genius isn't it. Electricity systems, international relations, virology. All hold no fear if you 'have had enough of experts'. 

Flying a helicopter is easy. You just move the two sticks with your hands, the rudder pedals with your feet  and twist the throttle to make it fly where you want to go. Simple.


----------



## gentlegreen (Feb 26, 2022)

nagapie said:


> I haven't read all 6 pages but this might be a good place to ask. My gas and electricity company want to put in a smart meter but I've no idea if this would help or disadvantage me.


it benefits the supply infrastructure, but won't make a scrap of difference to you.


----------



## Elpenor (Feb 26, 2022)

nagapie said:


> I haven't read all 6 pages but this might be a good place to ask. My gas and electricity company want to put in a smart meter but I've no idea if this would help or disadvantage me.



It might stop them sending you letters to have one installed every week


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> it benefits the supply infrastructure, but won't make a scrap of difference to you.


Octopus are experimenting, on a small scale, with half hour domestic metering. Most industrial users are on this. That could bring individual benefits if people wanted to take the time (although once it is normal I imagine there will be apps to manage smart fridges, heating and washing machines dryers and car chargers). Not for a while yet though.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 26, 2022)

Octopus will even pay you, so you can get cash for boiling the kettle at e.g. 5:30am. Happens quite infrequently though, and the downside is the higher rates at peak times.


----------



## nagapie (Feb 26, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> It might stop them sending you letters to have one installed every week


But I'd have to make an appointment to let them in my home. Letters seem easier.


----------



## gentlegreen (Feb 26, 2022)

A380 said:


> Octopus are experimenting, on a small scale, with half hour domestic metering. Most industrial users are on this. That could bring individual benefits if people wanted to take the time (although once it is normal I imagine there will be apps to manage smart fridges, heating and washing machines dryers and car chargers). Not for a while yet though.


Regular alerts offering low tariffs ?  "Take your shower now ! "


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Regular alerts offering low tariffs ?  "Take your shower now ! "


Thats what it might come to in 2035...


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2022)

A380 said:


> Thats what it might come to in 2035...



Around the same time as fusion...


----------



## A380 (Feb 26, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Around the same time as fusion...


15 years away. Just like it was in 1953.


----------



## Epona (Feb 26, 2022)

nagapie said:


> But I'd have to make an appointment to let them in my home. Letters seem easier.



I recently got a battery warning on my gas meter, phoned BG and was told they didn't replace the batteries on the older ones any more and they'd book an appointment to install a smart meter.

I was given a date of 22 March for that to happen.

On 22 Feb a bloke arrived to do the meter.  Oh they made a mistake I thought.  He changed the battery and then said oh if you've got a notice about an appointment in March, that will be to install the smart meter.

Huh?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 26, 2022)

nagapie said:


> But I'd have to make an appointment to let them in my home. Letters seem easier.


you never have to give them a reading again as it happens automatically so it does save some future hassle
also stops them over estimating use!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 26, 2022)

nagapie said:


> I haven't read all 6 pages but this might be a good place to ask. My gas and electricity company want to put in a smart meter but I've no idea if this would help or disadvantage me.



What are your circumstances?

I live in a one bed and I can see no possible way knowing how much a fridge is using is going to assist me. Fuck the fuckers and then fuck them some more. Eventually the government will fine them for not rolling out fast enough with any luck.


----------



## StoneRoad (Feb 26, 2022)

As far as I can see, the only people benefiting from smart meters are the energy companies, as they no longer have to employ meter readers.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2022)

I have no intention of getting a smart meter anytime soon.


----------



## bcuster (Feb 26, 2022)

My concern about wind turbines is the negative effect they are said to have on bird populations


----------



## gentlegreen (Feb 26, 2022)

bcuster said:


> My concern about wind turbines is the negative effect they are said to have on bird populations


Putin: Is he right about wind turbines and bird deaths?​*By Reality Check*
BBC News

Published
10 July 2019








Image source, Getty Images

Speaking at a global manufacturing conference, the president said: "Wind-powered generation is good but are birds being taken into account in this case? How many birds are dying?"
"[Wind turbines] shake, causing worms to come out of the soil. This is not a joke," he said.
Estimating deaths​Research does suggest that wind power has led to birds and bats dying - in collisions with turbines or because of habitat loss.
We couldn't find any reference to worms.
It's hard to get at a definitive figure on how many birds are killed by wind turbines, though, and estimates vary.
Research from the London School of Economics (LSE) estimated in 2014 that by 2020 there could be anywhere between 9,600 and 106,000 bird deaths a year from wind energy in the UK - in other words, we're not sure.
It compared this with the estimated 55 million birds killed by domestic cats in the UK each year.

*








						Putin: Is he right about wind turbines and bird deaths?
					

The Russian president has warned against too much reliance on wind power.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				



*


----------



## StoneRoad (Feb 26, 2022)

bcuster said:


> My concern about wind turbines is the negative effect they are said to have on bird populations


as per gentlegreen in the post above this one.

We don't know the actual affect of wind-turbines on birds & other wildlife.
Habitat loss in particular may be significant on a local scale.

However, domestic cats (& cars) probably kill far, far more ...
and this year bird flu has been a particular problem for geese around the Solway Firth, far more than the various wind farms.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 26, 2022)

Whatever humanity does has an impact, just for some reason we find it easier to deal with the invisibility and long term impact of belching out carbon and other pollutants than we do literally any other power source.

Solar "isn't efficient enough, takes up to much room"
Wind "kills birds, spoils the view"
Nuclear "theres an 8 page list of objectionable things here" (but if you want bang for your buck its got it)


All pimped up as reasons why the oil and gas industry can't possibly decrease production any time soon with a smidgeon of "but China is doing coal plants and we need to sell them coal"


----------



## 1927 (Feb 26, 2022)

editor said:


> Sure but monthly payments going from £20 to £60 is more than 50%. And no doubt it will go up even more because of that cunt Putin.


I doubt many people here are paying less than £60 a month on fuel! Many will be paying more than that a week. count yourself lucky! I dont get how its risen 3 fold tho. unless there was a negative balance on account.


----------



## Elpenor (Feb 26, 2022)

I’ve been paying £44 (economy 7, all electric. Have heating not on until 1st December, on low then, and going off next week. Run a freezer, washing machine and tumble dryer. Electric shower. Small undersink water heater for the sink which is on a timer for 2 hours a day.  

DD has gone up to £61 a few months which I expect is the cost of heating being on this winter.


----------



## Riklet (Feb 26, 2022)

I refuse to have a direct debit because then they overcharge you and build up 'credit' on your account. Fuck that. Its just cashflow trickery from these shysters.

editor could you cancel or block your direct debit and then just pay monthly online? If they are overestimating use ive found it helps to do regular metre readings and upload them.


----------



## WouldBe (Feb 27, 2022)

A380 said:


> Hydrogen production might be a solution, or it might not, *I’d favour ammonia.*


I wouldn't it's highly toxic. Def not something you'd want pumping into your house.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 27, 2022)

How about this zinger


----------



## Riklet (Feb 27, 2022)

You my friend, have a water leak!


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 27, 2022)

bellaozzydog said:


> How about this zinger



i think they are taking the piss

quite a lot of it, by the look of things


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 27, 2022)

Riklet said:


> You my friend, have a water leak!


It’s an un metered flat they literally just make up an estimate and send it to me.d

Had four bills in a week each escalating. 

Took 45 minutes on the phone to get them to admit they are wildly wrong. They are supposed to be issuing a new bill for 340 a year


----------



## A380 (Feb 27, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> I wouldn't it's highly toxic. Def not something you'd want pumping into your house.


Its more to run ships and regenerate electricity, not really for domestic use...


----------



## spring-peeper (Feb 27, 2022)

bcuster said:


> My concern about wind turbines is the negative effect they are said to have on bird populations



Near where my sister lives (Eastern Ontario), the region spent a lot of money putting in wind turbines.

Last time I was down there, they were everywhere.  I dislike wind turbines for a number of reasons, but mostly because they are ugly and mess with the scenery.
None of them were turning - this is the wrong area for wind turbines.

Phoned my sister about them, and the reason that the turbines were not being used was that they were killing too many bats.


----------



## spring-peeper (Feb 27, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Whatever humanity does has an impact, just for some reason we find it easier to deal with the invisibility and long term impact of belching out carbon and other pollutants than we do literally any other power source.
> 
> Solar "isn't efficient enough, takes up to much room"
> Wind "kills birds, spoils the view"
> ...




You should add hydro plants to your list of energy sources.

*Disadvantages of Hydroelectric Energy*

Impact on Fish. To create a hydro plant, a running water source must be dammed. ...
Limited Plant Locations. ...
Higher initial Costs. ...
Carbon and Methane Emissions. ...
Susceptible to Droughts. ...
Flood Risk.









						Advantages and Disadvantages of Hydroelectric Energy
					

Hydroelectric energy makes up 17% of all electricity in the world. Learn more about the advantages and disadvantages it offers.



					www.greengeeks.ca


----------



## Epona (Feb 27, 2022)

spring-peeper said:


> You should add hydro plants to your list of energy sources.
> 
> *Disadvantages of Hydroelectric Energy*
> 
> ...



Hadn't really occurred to me because there are only 4 in the UK and their output provides less than 2% of generated electricity to the grid.

I think the reason possibly comes under the point of "Limited Plant Locations" as you mentioned 

(Edit: But yeah certainly big hydroelectric dam projects that I have heard of in other parts of the world can have a massive impact on environment/habitats and communities in the area)


----------



## gentlegreen (Feb 27, 2022)

Riklet said:


> I refuse to have a direct debit because then they overcharge you and build up 'credit' on your account. Fuck that. Its just cashflow trickery from these shysters.
> 
> editor could you cancel or block your direct debit and then just pay monthly online? If they are overestimating use ive found it helps to do regular metre readings and upload them.


Bulb had built up £500 in credit so I opted to pay the minimum of £40-something.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 27, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Which will last a goodly number of years. Things die, they get replaced. Buy cheap, buy twice.



Poor people should just have more money to buy stuff with, then they'd be less poor.

Ignorant cunt.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 27, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Poor people should just have more money to buy stuff with, then they'd be less poor.
> 
> Ignorant cunt.


Putrid thick witted shit stain.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 27, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Putrid thick witted shit stain.



Bit early to be at the cherry brandy no? And on a Sunday morning no less. The baby Jesus is very disappointed in you. 

Feel free to actually 'mute' me this time by the way, instead of just pretending to for the umpteenth fucking time. Normally I'd ignore someone as relentlessly toxic as you, but I keep you around as a useful reminder of just how mean spirited and blinkered old tories can be. I mean really, criticising poor people for not spending more money on better quality stuff? You can't be that fucking dim surely, that has to be done out of sheer spite.


----------



## StoneRoad (Feb 27, 2022)

Epona said:


> Hadn't really occurred to me because there are only 4 in the UK and their output provides less than 2% of generated electricity to the grid.
> 
> I think the reason possibly comes under the point of "Limited Plant Locations" as you mentioned
> 
> (Edit: But yeah certainly big hydroelectric dam projects that I have heard of in other parts of the world can have a massive impact on environment/habitats and communities in the area)



There are only 4 "true" Pumped Storage HEP sites in the UK [and I've been inside three of them on either public or engineering tours].

However, there are a lot of smaller HEP schemes, some dating back many years - others are far more recent.
[and I've visited a fair few of them over the years]. Cwm Dyli looks like a chalet farm house ...

The UK has enough rain & the expertise to build a lot more of the "micro HEP" type, which can use relatively small head / flow locations, and they can be installed discreetly.

The 100kW "micro-HEP" at Dolgoch Falls is an example ..


----------



## StoneRoad (Feb 27, 2022)

I've just been for a scout onto the "Gridwatch" site. 
Pulled a few figures off it [at approx 09:30]
Demand  30.39 GW

Renewables :
2% HEP [zero pumped - this may appear when people start cooking lunch]
8.6% Solar
4.3% Biomass
41.13% Wind

Nuclear 17.9%

Coal 0.79%
CCGT 9.54%

Inter-connectors [collectively] 11.88%    [ie 15.13% less 3.25% to Ireland]
[French is probably mostly from nuclear, Dutch - renewable [wind]]


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 27, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> I've just been for a scout onto the "Gridwatch" site.
> Pulled a few figures off it [at approx 09:30]
> Demand  30.39 GW
> 
> ...



I assume the contribution from gas also goes up at peak times?


----------



## StoneRoad (Feb 27, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> I assume the contribution from gas also goes up at peak times?



Prior to the current price gouging / profiteering / supply crisis, on cloudy or windless days, I've seen CCGT account for 35 - 45% Note that  CCGT is fairly "rapid response" especially for planned peak periods. ie the stations are warmed up & ready to go ...

Currently, EDF must have some of their UK reactors on Statutory Shutdown / various outages, as they usually account for around 20%

The fastest response I have seen is at Dinorwic [aka Electric Mountain], their turbines can go from pump / standby / power very quickly. Maybe not quite as fast as at Tan y Grisiau, which can go from zero to full chat on all four in less than sixty seconds ... and then power all of North Wales for a few hours before Stwlan is "empty"


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 27, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Prior to the current price gouging / profiteering / supply crisis, on cloudy or windless days, I've seen CCGT account for 35 - 45% Note that  CCGT is fairly "rapid response" especially for planned peak periods. ie the stations are warmed up & ready to go ...
> 
> Currently, EDF must have some of their UK reactors on Statutory Shutdown / various outages, as they usually account for around 20%
> 
> The fastest response I have seen is at Dinorwic [aka Electric Mountain], their turbines can go from pump / standby / power very quickly. Maybe not quite as fast as at Tan y Grisiau, which can go from zero to full chat on all four in less than sixty seconds ... and then power all of North Wales for a few hours before Stwlan is "empty"



Status here.

Hinkley is offline


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> My combined gas and electric has gone up by 50%, from £114pm to £171pm.
> 
> However, that's based on the estimates SSE made before transferring me to OVO, who have agreed I was being massively overcharged by SSE, to the point I've actually paid 18 months up front for the electric, once they resolve that, I expect to be paying somewhere around £120-£130pm.



SSE are a useless rip off bunch of cnuts and that's me being polite.  I refuse to have a DD with them and Fil's will be getting cancelled asap. I set that up yrs ago to make life easier. It has proven to be anything but. They overestimate his bill EVERY quarter, he is over £200 in credit after his recent bill and they want to up his DD? They can fuck off, seriously thinking about going to ofgem, or whatever.

Our bill shouldn't go up too much cos we hardly use electric, no I'm not sure how! We do have solar panels and a coal fire but leccy usage is less than £500 a yr


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 27, 2022)

geminisnake said:


> SSE are a useless rip off bunch of cnuts and that's me being polite.  I refuse to have a DD with them and Fil's will be getting cancelled asap. I set that up yrs ago to make life easier. It has proven to be anything but. They overestimate his bill EVERY quarter, he is over £200 in credit after his recent bill and they want to up his DD? They can fuck off, seriously thinking about going to ofgem, or whatever.
> 
> Our bill shouldn't go up too much cos we hardly use electric, no I'm not sure how! We do have solar panels and a coal fire but leccy usage is less than £500 a yr



SSE sold out their retail side to OVO in 2020, it's just taking time to transfer everyone over, as it seems OVO doesn't want to rush it and make a mess of it, I was only transferred about a month ago.

I have to say I am impressed with their customer service, answering calls quickly, UK call centre, with very helpful staff, that explained my situation was far from unique and it's been a nightmare sorting all the problems they have inherited. Reassured me that there's no way I would be losing out, as it's clear from the metre readings that SSE screwed-up, but it takes them a few weeks to resolve each case with SSE.

So, it maybe easier to just hang in there, until you/your Fil is transferred over to OVO's systems. 



> Yes. Over time, all of our energy customers will be moving to OVO Energy. To make this as smooth as possible, we're looking to move everyone across gradually. We’ll keep you updated every step of the way. The move won’t interrupt your supply, won’t affect the prices you pay, and won't affect your meter(s).







__





						Moving from SSE Energy Services to OVO Energy - SSE
					

SSE Energy Services are now part of the OVO family and we've started moving customers to OVO Energy. Find out more from these questions and answers.




					sse.co.uk


----------



## contadino (Feb 27, 2022)

I thought next door had gone away for half term (no lights on, quiet) but apparently their leccy bills have shot up (he was with bulb but obviously I don't know the numbers) so they're no longer leaving their outside lights on all night, he's installed one of those 30 second timer switch on the garage light, and they've got rid of their tumble dryer.

Every cloud...

As for our house, we got a 2 year fixed rate in August with Sainsbury's. While they're unlikely to go bust, they could just pull out of the market if they're making a loss, so we have 18 months of fretting about that, followed by a massive price shock, but at least we have a finite time window to make the house more efficient. Already replaced most of the windows and put a shitload of insulation in the loft, had cavity wall insulation done, etc..


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## platinumsage (Feb 27, 2022)

contadino said:


> I thought next door had gone away for half term (no lights on, quiet) but apparently their leccy bills have shot up (he was with bulb but obviously I don't know the numbers) so they're no longer leaving their outside lights on all night, he's installed one of those 30 second timer switch on the garage light, and they've got rid of their tumble dryer.
> 
> Every cloud...
> 
> As for our house, we got a 2 year fixed rate in August with Sainsbury's. While they're unlikely to go bust, they could just pull out of the market if they're making a loss, so we have 18 months of fretting about that, followed by a massive price shock, but at least we have a finite time window to make the house more efficient. Already replaced most of the windows and put a shitload of insulation in the loft, had cavity wall insulation done, etc..



Sainsbury's Energy is just EON with a branded sticker on top. No chance of them doing anything more than changing their name to EON.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 27, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> I have no intention of getting a smart meter anytime soon.


Nor us.


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## WouldBe (Feb 27, 2022)

A380 said:


> Its more to run ships and regenerate electricity, not really for domestic use...


Powering ships is one thing.
Regenerating electricity is another. It takes loads of energy to produce ammonia to start with. Not sure you would get that back using it to produce electricity.

Something needs to replace domestic gas usage. Iirc it was you that said gas provides 4 times more domestic energy than electric does. To go completely over to electric you would need at least a 4 fold increase in transmission lines and sub stations and would have to dig both sides of every road up in the country to put higher capacity cables into every house. Far easier to pump hydrogen down the existing gas pipes.


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## A380 (Feb 27, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Powering ships is one thing.
> Regenerating electricity is another. It takes loads of energy to produce ammonia to start with. Not sure you would get that back using it to produce electricity.
> 
> Something needs to replace domestic gas usage. Iirc it was you that said gas provides 4 times more domestic energy than electric does. To go completely over to electric you would need at least a 4 fold increase in transmission lines and sub stations and would have to dig both sides of every road up in the country to put higher capacity cables into every house. Far easier to pump hydrogen down the existing gas pipes.


Maybe hydrogen will be the answer for domestic heating or maybe air source heat pumps and better insulation. Both have significant issues to solve l. The jury is still out.

Ammonia production and regeneration is the only technology that currently could get anywhere near the scales for meaningful energy storage in the UK. We sadly just don’t have enough sites to do it with pumped storage. Which isn’t to say we couldn’t use another 5 or 6 schemes on the Dinorwic scale.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 27, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Powering ships is one thing.
> Regenerating electricity is another. It takes loads of energy to produce ammonia to start with. Not sure you would get that back using it to produce electricity.
> 
> Something needs to replace domestic gas usage. Iirc it was you that said gas provides 4 times more domestic energy than electric does. To go completely over to electric you would need at least a 4 fold increase in transmission lines and sub stations and would have to dig both sides of every road up in the country to put higher capacity cables into every house. Far easier to pump hydrogen down the existing gas pipes.



The 'cost' of your ammonia is irrelevant, it is being generated by surplus wind.


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## gentlegreen (Feb 27, 2022)

Presumably ammonia could be used as fertiliser feedstock and displace production using natural gas ?


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 27, 2022)

A380 said:


> Maybe hydrogen will be the answer for domestic heating or maybe air source heat pumps and better insulation. Both have significant issues to solve l. The jury is still out.
> 
> Ammonia production and regeneration is the only technology that currently could get anywhere near the scales for meaningful energy storage in the UK. We sadly just don’t have enough sites to do it with pumped storage. Which isn’t to say we couldn’t use another 5 or 6 schemes on the Dinorwic scale.



There are a number of place in the Highlands where a few dams could create huge lakes. Won't happen for many reasons, but could be done by blowing the tops off mountains to dam the Glens. Glen Roy* and Glen Gloy are two good examples.

*Glen Roy is famous for it's raised beaches, created as the ice melted.


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## StoneRoad (Feb 27, 2022)

I still favour building a lot of "micro-HEP" rather than relying on a small number of large power stations.

On the Avon Rheidhol, there are two small scale and one larger stations [not micro, though] that generate using water on what could be termed a down-stream cascade. So some of the water passes through three HEP stations.









						Rheidol Power Station - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## equationgirl (Feb 27, 2022)

Yeah, same hererefuse to have a direct debit because then they overcharge you and build up 'credit' on your account. Fuck that. Its just cashflow trickery from these shysters.


Riklet said:


> editor could you cancel or block your direct debit and then just pay monthly online? If they are overestimating use ive found it helps to do regular metre readings and upload them.





StoneRoad said:


> Prior to the current price gouging / profiteering / supply crisis, on cloudy or windless days, I've seen CCGT account for 35 - 45% Note that  CCGT is fairly "rapid response" especially for planned peak periods. ie the stations are warmed up & ready to go ...
> 
> Currently, EDF must have some of their UK reactors on Statutory Shutdown / various outages, as they usually account for around 20%
> 
> The fastest response I have seen is at Dinorwic [aka Electric Mountain], their turbines can go from pump / standby / power very quickly. Maybe not quite as fast as at Tan y Grisiau, which can go from zero to full chat on all four in less than sixty seconds ... and then power all of North Wales for a few hours before Stwlan is "empty"


Hunterston has been shut down early, that's owned by EDF. Was supposed to be 2023 but has been brought forward.


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## WouldBe (Feb 27, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Presumably ammonia could be used as fertiliser feedstock and displace production using natural gas ?


It already is but is produced using large quantities of energy to start with.

To produce ammonia you need 450-550°C and pressures in excess of 1450psi.

Hydrogen for the process can be obtained from methane but this uses >5MWh of energy for 1.1 tonnes of hydrogen. Alternatively the hydrogen can come from electrolysis of water but this requires 39.4MWh of electricity to produce the same amount of hydrogen.


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 27, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> Yeah, same hererefuse to have a direct debit because then they overcharge you and build up 'credit' on your account. Fuck that. Its just cashflow trickery from these shysters.



not sure i've looked in to it since, but when i moved in here, options were monthly direct debit or prepayment meter (which apart from the faffing around means you pay higher price for everything)


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## Elpenor (Feb 27, 2022)

My tariff is DD only. I prefer not to have DD bills if possible as I can get Hilton points by paying the bill with my card as I do for council tax, mobile and water.


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## equationgirl (Feb 27, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> not sure i've looked in to it since, but when i moved in here, options were monthly direct debit or prepayment meter (which apart from the faffing around means you pay higher price for everything)


I think I fucked up the quote somehow, but those words are actually Riklet's not mine. I do however wholeheartedly endorse the sentiment.


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## StoneRoad (Feb 27, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> Yeah, same hererefuse to have a direct debit because then they overcharge you and build up 'credit' on your account. Fuck that. Its just cashflow trickery from these shysters.
> 
> 
> 
> Hunterston has been shut down early, that's owned by EDF. Was supposed to be 2023 but has been brought forward.


Yeah, I know [and I've a good idea why] I suspect that one of the reactors at Heysham will be following the same pathway, despite the life-extension plans ...

We now have a potential shortfall in nuclear generation capacity, and the length of lead time / problems to overcome to get a new plant planned / authorised, built & commissions [synchronised to the grid] ...


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 28, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> Yeah, same hererefuse to have a direct debit because then they overcharge you and build up 'credit' on your account. Fuck that. Its just cashflow trickery from these shysters.
> 
> 
> 
> Hunterston has been shut down early, that's owned by EDF. Was supposed to be 2023 but has been brought forward.



Worsening cracks is the core IIRC.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> It already is but is produced using large quantities of energy to start with.
> 
> To produce ammonia you need 450-550°C and pressures in excess of 1450psi.
> 
> Hydrogen for the process can be obtained from methane but this uses >5MWh of energy for 1.1 tonnes of hydrogen. Alternatively the hydrogen can come from electrolysis of water but this requires *39.4MWh* of electricity to produce the same amount of hydrogen.



So circa 14 wind turbines that at 3am aren't being used.


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## WouldBe (Feb 28, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> So circa 14 wind turbines that at 3am aren't being used.


Plus the energy to run the reaction and how far do you think 1.1 tonnes of hydrogen will go when converted to ammonia? And how much energy do you get back out?


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## gentlegreen (Feb 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Plus the energy to run the reaction and how far do you think 1.1 tonnes of hydrogen will go when converted to ammonia? And how much energy do you get back out?


It's energy that would otherwise go to waste - or would need to be deployed to make ammonia from methane ... If the ammonia is used as fertiliser, the output could be specified in terms of kilos of wheat ...


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## equationgirl (Feb 28, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Worsening cracks is the core IIRC.


Yes, I know.


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## equationgirl (Feb 28, 2022)

Notification from Scottish gas this morning that I can expect 50% increases next month. Epic.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Plus the energy to run the reaction and how far do you think 1.1 tonnes of hydrogen will go when converted to ammonia? And how much energy do you get back out?



If your input energy costs nothing, then it doesn't really matter. I appreciate that there is a cost in running the turbine in terms of its longevity, but even so it is a win.


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## WouldBe (Feb 28, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> It's energy that would otherwise go to waste - or would need to be deployed to make ammonia from methane ... If the ammonia is used as fertiliser, the output could be specified in terms of kilos of wheat ...


The figures I posted earlier show it takes 10x as much energy to produce the hydrogen from water than it does from methane. If the ammonia is being used for energy storage to be released when demand goes up then it's not available for use as fertilizer.


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## WouldBe (Feb 28, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> If your input energy costs nothing, then it doesn't really matter. I appreciate that there is a cost in running the turbine in terms of its longevity, but even so it is a win.


Just because it can be done doesn't mean it's the most efficient way to store energy.


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## gentlegreen (Feb 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> The figures I posted earlier show it takes 10x as much energy to produce the hydrogen from water than it does from methane. If the ammonia is being used for energy storage to be released when demand goes up then it's not available for use as fertilizer.


Yes, but I'm suggesting it might make more sense to make fertiliser than to use it as fuel.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Just because it can be done doesn't mean it's the most efficient way to store energy.



Didn't say it was. It can be done NOW though, and at lesser cost than batteries. If you are using surplus energy, efficiency  %age isn't so important.


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## StoneRoad (Feb 28, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Worsening cracks is the core IIRC.


Yup, that's the case, as far as I know.


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## mod (Feb 28, 2022)

My flat is powered 100% by electricity. E.on Next were charging me £180 a month. They took over from Igloo (who went under)  last summer . 

I still had my old £60 direct debit amount going to E.on Next and didn't realise my account was getting further and further in debt with them. They wouldn't let me switch until I'd settled the £750 outstanding on my account. that fucking hurt. A lot. 

I've switched to Octopus Energy and am currently paying £90 a month but have only been with them one week so dont know if this is going to be enough. Octopus Energy supply 100% renewable electricity.


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## platinumsage (Feb 28, 2022)

mod said:


> My flat is powered 100% by electricity. E.on Next were charging me £180 a month. They took over from Igloo (who went under)  last summer .
> 
> I still had my old £60 direct debit amount going to E.on Next and didn't realise my account was getting further and further in debt with them. They wouldn't let me switch until I'd settled the £750 outstanding on my account. that fucking hurt. A lot.
> 
> I've switched to Octopus Energy and am currently paying £90 a month but have only been with them one week so dont know if this is going to be enough. Octopus Energy supply 100% renewable electricity.



I suggest looking at your bills and meter readings and determining your annual usage in KWh. This might even be conveniently written on your bills somewhere. Then you can look at the rate Octopus charges and see if £90 a month will cover your typical annual usage over the next year.


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## WouldBe (Feb 28, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Yes, but I'm suggesting it might make more sense to make fertiliser than to use it as fuel.


We can already produce enough fertilizer and making more doesn't help the energy crisis.


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## gentlegreen (Feb 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> We can already produce enough fertilizer and making more doesn't help the energy crisis.


Yes - but we would be making less by conventional means ...


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## two sheds (Feb 28, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> £62 for gas and electric -> £155


With the condescending tone you've adopted I find it a bit surprising that you're paying more than I paid last year for electric alone (used for heating too, no gas here). To compare properly though, would need to know who’s your supplier, are you on green tariff, how many people in the house, detached/semi/terrace/flat, when built?


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## two sheds (Feb 28, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I gave you figures for renewable investment and generation projects by the big suppliers last time we did this, and their renewable tariffs are no higher than the standard cap. 🤷


where was that? I've looked but couldn't see it.


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## cybershot (Feb 28, 2022)

Roughly 50% increase for me, but my fixed rate came to end a while back, so this is from price cap to new price cap! Don't think there's actually any fixed price deals that beat the price cap, and probably won't be for a while.


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## two sheds (Feb 28, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I suggest switching suppliers. You could use a massive amount of electric heating with the difference in cost, instead of faffing about burning wood and deluding yourself you're being green.


You really are a slimy condescending cunt aren't you? I've not been deluding myself I've been green, I've been using it because there's no gas where I am and I needed to heat the house. I've already said I've been using electricity for heating because of particulates from wood burning.


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

Another Bulb refugee in the making here

I'll be honest, I've NEVER really looked at how much energy we use, the bills just got paid, as with both of us working, thank goodness, it was never really an issue

BUT

We've both retired, our state pension doesn't kick in for 7 years so we're having to "tighten out belts"

Let's have a look at the electric then

Bulb have us on an "estimate" annual usage of 5200KWh per year - which meant nothing to me, until a quick Google later informs me that the average annual consumption for a family of 3 is 3200KWh per year . . . Gulp!

That can't be right. Luckily I've got an Owl meter, it's a bit like a smart meter, but MINE. You can use it to monitor how much electricity you're using and what uses how much

So, I started it again, zero'd the reading, input my KW/h price which at the moment is 21.6p / KWh and switched off the consumer box just to make sure that I'm not buying electricity for the entire street. I'm not, as the meter didn't move in 15 minutes

Then we gradually started switching things on. The single biggest user of electricity IN BACKGROUND USAGE is, surprise, surprise, the immersion heater which really eats the power, when it's on, but it's not on all the time, so I've adjusted the thermostat down a bit and I'll check the water temperature tomorrow

I've now found out that the dishwasher costs "about" 65p / go on Eco setting - so no more washing one spoon at a time going forward then

Got to have a look at the washing machine next I think. I tend to dry my clothes in the airing cupboard, so get a bigger bang for my buck out of the immersion heater OR preferably dry clothes outside on the line

So, once again, I've got an eagle eye on the Owl meter on the mantle piece and see what our daily energy usage is

I wouldn't mind if we were 100% electric but we're not. We have LPG for hob cooking, LPG for central heating, wood / coal for main heat. Electricity for oven cooking and the usual stuff


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 1, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> We can already produce enough fertilizer and making more doesn't help the energy crisis.



Leaving aside the fact that fertiliser leaching is creating havoc in many rivers.


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## magneze (Mar 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> That can't be right. Luckily I've got an Owl meter, it's a bit like a smart meter, but MINE. You can use it to monitor how much electricity you're using and what uses how much


This seems like a good idea. Hadn't realised that you can self-install these pretty easily. Would you recommend?


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## gentlegreen (Mar 1, 2022)

I just read the meter every so often and stick in in a spreadsheet and all bills and readings are available online


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

magneze said:


> This seems like a good idea. Hadn't realised that you can self-install these pretty easily. Would you recommend?


There is NO installation as such - you get a reader, which you "programme" prices etc and there's a sender unit which has a  clamp which loosely goes round the mains cable, it takes about 30 seconds to attach

I've checked the readings against our actual electricity meter and 1KWh registers on both, so I'm happy enough

It's like a lot of things, totally useless until you want to know something, then it's invaluable. Can't remember what I paid for it, less than £100 almost certainly and we've had it several years, ticking away in the background, never really paying much attention to it . . . but now though


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## dessiato (Mar 1, 2022)

I’ve just been checking my gas and electricity bills here in Galicia, just about €350 for three months. The latest bill for house in Scotland was more than this for one month.


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## petee (Mar 1, 2022)

hey, the market is global, it's happening here too









						After New Yorkers see sudden price increase, Gov. Kathy Hochul urges Con Ed to reform itself
					

Some city residents have seen their Con Ed bill double or even triple as compared to the previous month.



					gothamist.com


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## StoneRoad (Mar 1, 2022)

Making sure we use electricity to our best advantage will be my next "campaign" ...

At present, I'm trying to go back to my habit of turning off unused lights.

I'm also going to make sure we use the dishwasher / washing machine / dryer more effectively - ie no more 'half a dozen tea-towels / dishcloths' by themselves. Stuck with the dryer more often than not at this time of year as the air is too cold / humid for much drying on the line.

My housemates have the annoying habit of leaving the muted TV playing to itself for hours on end. I think that's going to have to stop.


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## Cat Fan (Mar 1, 2022)

Aladdin said:


> Agree.
> We chose eating. Groceries are up average €35 per week.
> We are not using the heating as much as 12 months ago. It is now only used if we are really cold.
> Just wearing extra layers of clothing and putting extra blankets on the bed.
> Very aware that 83 year olds need to be kept warm. But my dad turns down the thernostat all the time so its not kicking in unless the tenp is between 10 and 15 degrees. Which always feels colder than expected.


It's not recommended to have thermostat set below 19 in winter. Appreciate that's not possible for everyone due to the cost. Draught proofing and insulation can also go a long way


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## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> thermostat


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

I'm looking at my Owl meter which was at zero as of 10:00am - we had everything, and I mean everything switched off for 15 minutes, we used zero electricity then gradually switched things on. I've spoken with the chap who services our LPG boiler and he knows our heating system and he's told me that it's OK to turn off the immersion heater (it's more of a back up for the main boiler rather than to be used daily), so that's now off.

I've cooked using the small electric oven (cooker has a twin oven), which was only on for 30 minutes. I've used a microwave for 5 minutes. Pretty much everything else is what I call "background usage" - stuff that CAN'T be switched off. And the meter is reading after 8 hours 4.280 KWh - so factor that up x 3 for 24 hours and we're at nearly 13KWh / day so for a year that's 4,686KWh which is still 1,400KWh OVER the average for a 3 bed house - and I'm barely using any of the high consumption items

How the fuck is that right - that average can't be right

We've got newish dishwasher, fridge freezer, washing machine and newish cooker. Are there more energy efficient ones out there? possibly, but these are not cheap and cheerful items, they are all "quality" brands with decent energy ratings (read: I believe the ratings)

Where is the electricity going?


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## Cat Fan (Mar 1, 2022)

In interests of sharing, we have our heating system set to 20. Heating always on because of working from home and having a small baby.

Still, the flat is well insulated for a Victorian build, so only expecting to pay c£1200-1800 per year with the new higher SVR.


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## Cat Fan (Mar 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I'm looking at my Owl meter which was at zero as of 10:00am - we had everything, and I mean everything switched off for 15 minutes, we used zero electricity then gradually switched things on. I've spoken with the chap who services our LPG boiler and he knows our heating system and he's told me that it's OK to turn off the immersion heater (it's more of a back up for the main boiler rather than to be used daily), so that's now off.
> 
> I've cooked using the small electric oven (cooker has a twin oven), which was only on for 30 minutes. I've used a microwave for 5 minutes. Pretty much everything else is what I call "background usage" - stuff that CAN'T be switched off. And the meter is reading after 8 hours 4.280 KWh - so factor that up x 3 for 24 hours and we're at nearly 13KWh / day so for a year that's 4,686KWh which is still 1,400KWh OVER the average for a 3 bed house - and I'm barely using any of the high consumption items
> 
> ...


Heating things up uses a lot of energy, and electric heating generally more expensive than gas heating I think.


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> . . . Where is the electricity going?


Seriously . . . any ideas??

I can't see a way of reducing 1,400KWh / year


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## danski (Mar 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I'm looking at my Owl meter which was at zero as of 10:00am - we had everything, and I mean everything switched off for 15 minutes, we used zero electricity then gradually switched things on. I've spoken with the chap who services our LPG boiler and he knows our heating system and he's told me that it's OK to turn off the immersion heater (it's more of a back up for the main boiler rather than to be used daily), so that's now off.
> 
> I've cooked using the small electric oven (cooker has a twin oven), which was only on for 30 minutes. I've used a microwave for 5 minutes. Pretty much everything else is what I call "background usage" - stuff that CAN'T be switched off. And the meter is reading after 8 hours 4.280 KWh - so factor that up x 3 for 24 hours and we're at nearly 13KWh / day so for a year that's 4,686KWh which is still 1,400KWh OVER the average for a 3 bed house - and I'm barely using any of the high consumption items
> 
> ...


Most of that will be from the oven and you don’t use that constantly.


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> Heating things up uses a lot of energy, and electric heating generally more expensive than gas heating I think.


When you say "heating" do you mean the house?

Or

General heating - which in my case would be cooking

We don't heat the house with electricity - mainly LPG and wood /coal


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## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

I've got a cheapish meter that I've gone round plugging into sockets and then plugging the devices into. Works well - only need to do it once and you know how much it all takes.


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

danski said:


> Most of that will be from the oven and you don’t use that constantly.


Nope! maybe half a kilowatt hour - maybe


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## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

immersion heater takes 3 kW but I've got pv and a controller that takes the excess power to heat it up. I only ever switched it on when I needed it so this is first time I've had constant hot water (except for winter) since I've lived here.


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I've got a cheapish meter that I've gone round plugging into sockets and then plugging the devices into. Works well - only need to do it once and you know how much it all takes.


What meter is this of which you speak?

I've seen plugs that you plug into a socket and then plug the device into them and you can get a reading off them

OR

I'd actually "like" a multi meter with an induction type loop that you can get a reading off


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## danski (Mar 1, 2022)

What sort of lighting do you have?


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> immersion heater takes 3 kW but I've got pv and a controller that takes the excess power to heat it up. I only ever switched it on when I needed it so this is first time I've had constant hot water (except for winter) since I've lived here.


Immersion heater has been switched off - totally OFF so that's not using any energy


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

danski said:


> What sort of lighting do you have?


Mainly GU10 LED spot lights


----------



## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> What meter is this of which you speak?
> 
> I've seen plugs that you plug into a socket and then plug the device into them and you can get a reading off them


yes that. I've just looked on it and there's no maker's name or type number  

I did get a multimeter before with an induction loop to hook over the  power lead coming into the house - not sure why but it was all over the fucking place couldn't get a reading off it - I think because of the solar panels.


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

danski said:


> What sort of lighting do you have?


Because the house is built into the side of a hill it's really quite dark so lights are on pretty much all the time we're awake - but that's 4 in the living area and 8 in the kitchen - the kitchen one's I'm getting into the habit of turning off as I walk out of the kitchen - then a further 2 on the stairs, again, quite dark even during the day

So lights account for 10 GU10 bulbs but these are like, low watt bulbs


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> yes that. I've just looked on it and there's no maker's name or type number
> 
> I did get a multimeter before with an induction loop to hook over the  power lead coming into the house - not sure why but it was all over the fucking place couldn't get a reading off it - I think because of the solar panels.


I think that's probably the way I'm going to go - they're not that expensive and are moveable - them and extension leads with switches on where necessary


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## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

something like this but with uk socket on it


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## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

I noticed I was taking power (not a lot I don't think though) at 8 o'clock in the morning the other day with nothing really on. Realized it must have been fridge (90W) and/or freezer (45 W).


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## gentlegreen (Mar 1, 2022)

I've used 3597 since this time last year - I'm retired and basically live in one room and use a fan heater for heating.

I use roughly 8 units a day all year - plus 4 units during the winter... it's been like that for years - but only have hot water for baths - once a week when I was working, rather less frequently since - and I do my laundry in the used water.


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## Cat Fan (Mar 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> When you say "heating" do you mean the house?
> 
> Or
> 
> ...


The cooking I mean. Anything that heats, even kettles and washing machines/dishwashers use quite a lot of power


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## dessiato (Mar 1, 2022)

I’m increasingly thinking that when we are fully back in Scotland I’ll be closing a number of rooms, putting them on the lowest heat setting just enough to keep the rooms dry. I’ll use the small lounge and the open fire.


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> something like this but with uk socket on it
> 
> View attachment 312427


Just ordered a twin pack - watch this space


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## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

I've got a dessicant dehumidifier (300W) which blows out warm air and is really good for taking chill off a room. Also makes the place feel warmer because there's less humidity and the air's easier to heat up.


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> The cooking I mean. Anything that heats, even kettles and washing machines/dishwashers use quite a lot of power


Kettle is, from memory, a 3KWh kettle BUT we don't over fill it and it gets used maybe 3 times a day, say for 15-20 minutes, so, yes, that's 1KW but it's not over filled and that's about a minimum usage - Washing machine hasn't been on today at all - dishwasher is currently on and the meter is hardly "spinning like a top" so I'll live with that consumption

It's not so much how much we use . . . well, it is . . . but more the "average" consumption being so much lower than where we are, that's what'd doing my head - It'd be easy to get below that, we had zero consumption this morning, but everything was switched off, so we can control our usage just life would be shit. And I don't feel that we are profligate in our usage either


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## High Voltage (Mar 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I've got a dessicant dehumidifier (300W) which blows out warm air and is really good for taking chill off a room. Also makes the place feel warmer because there's less humidity and the air's easier to heat up.


Been there, done that. We had a dehumidifier as the house was, and still is, damp - but we're built into the side of the Mendips and there's no way you can dehumidify the Mendips . . . not gonna happen

And we no longer have it any way


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I'm looking at my Owl meter which was at zero as of 10:00am - we had everything, and I mean everything switched off for 15 minutes, we used zero electricity then gradually switched things on. I've spoken with the chap who services our LPG boiler and he knows our heating system and he's told me that it's OK to turn off the immersion heater (it's more of a back up for the main boiler rather than to be used daily), so that's now off.
> 
> I've cooked using the small electric oven (cooker has a twin oven), which was only on for 30 minutes. I've used a microwave for 5 minutes. Pretty much everything else is what I call "background usage" - stuff that CAN'T be switched off. And the meter is reading after 8 hours 4.280 KWh - so factor that up x 3 for 24 hours and we're at nearly 13KWh / day so for a year that's 4,686KWh which is still 1,400KWh OVER the average for a 3 bed house - and I'm barely using any of the high consumption items
> 
> ...



The 8 hours from 10pm til 6am don't usually involve much cooking in our house.


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## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Been there, done that. We had a dehumidifier as the house was, and still is, damp - but we're built into the side of the Mendips and there's no way you can dehumidify the Mendips . . . not gonna happen
> 
> And we no longer have it any way


tell me about it -[ I was about to come on and say other things I've found really useful are the small digital thermometers/humidity meters. Ideal for houses is supposedly 19C & 60% - fat chance in Cornwall though where RH normally seem to be 95%. It does make a difference in the rooms though, when I've had the dehumidifier on for a couple of days the reading does drop.


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## petee (Mar 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I've got a dessicant dehumidifier



how can there be a "desiccant humidifier"?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 1, 2022)

My last bill was £280. Not even that big a house, although not that well insulated. It was an almost even split between gas and electric that surprised me. I'd expect that gas to be high, but I really need to work out what we're doing to use so much electric.

Solar panels are looking more desirable if you can stomach the upfront cost.


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## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

> To process air that enters the unit, it is slowly moved across the desiccant wheel. This desiccant wheel will extract the moisture content from the air. The desiccant wheel is nothing but silica gel. This silica gel integrated to make the desiccant wheel will absorb all the excess moisture content to process air. Once the excess moisture is removed from the air, the air is pushed back into the space or area.
> 
> While compressor dehumidifiers collect water as the water condenses on the cold surface and comes down; desiccant dehumidifiers have reactivation air. From the air that enters the unit, a small amount of it is sent back as reactivation air to the desiccant wheel. The reactivation air is warmed and pushed across the desiccant wheel since warm air holds more moisture.
> 
> The reactivation air on the desiccant wheel continues to process air by absorbing the moisture from it and pushing it out of the unit.


There's a chamber at the bottom to collect the water. 

They are one of the cleverest pieces of equipment


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## Elpenor (Mar 1, 2022)

I’m definitely minded when I buy a house this year (hopefully) to not buy more house than I need given the heating costs. Not that I have it on anyway except on cold nights


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 1, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> I’m definitely minded when I buy a house this year (hopefully) to not buy more house than I need given the heating costs. Not that I have it on anyway except on cold nights



Does it work that way though? We've moving soon to somewhere bigger, but I'm pretty sure that's it's actually going to cost less to heat.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 1, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I've used 3597 since this time last year - I'm retired and basically live in one room and use a fan heater for heating.
> 
> I use roughly 8 units a day all year - plus 4 units during the winter... it's been like that for years - but only have hot water for baths - once a week when I was working, rather less frequently since - and I do my laundry in the used water.



Try and get something other than a fan heater, those use a lot of juice.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

a lot determined by height of rooms I think. Mine are quite low. Victorian rooms are lovely but a bugger to heat because it all goes to the top of the room.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 1, 2022)

thermostatic valves are worthwhile if you don't already have them fitted. Now that this household has dropped from 5 to 2 we have three rooms that are effectively not used (1 doesn't even have furniture in it), I've turned the valves in the two empty bedrooms and the old dining room down to 1 on the valves and leave the doors shut permanently.


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## Petcha (Mar 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Kettle is, from memory, a 3KWh kettle BUT we don't over fill it and it gets used maybe 3 times a day, say for 15-20 minutes, so, yes, that's 1KW but it's not over filled and that's about a minimum usage - Washing machine hasn't been on today at all - dishwasher is currently on and the meter is hardly "spinning like a top" so I'll live with that consumption
> 
> It's not so much how much we use . . . well, it is . . . but more the "average" consumption being so much lower than where we are, that's what'd doing my head - It'd be easy to get below that, we had zero consumption this morning, but everything was switched off, so we can control our usage just life would be shit. And I don't feel that we are profligate in our usage either



Leaving aside the fucking amazing irony of your username (apols for being flippant), I'm blown over by this a bit. But then I think back to last winter when I wasn't in such a comfortable flat, got pneumonia and I guess just tried to brush that off as bad luck. When in actual fact the landlady wasn't letting me put on the heating. 

At least I suppose in London it's been a very mild winter.


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## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

It's damp in cornwall and I don't heat all the rooms. Fairly lucky that I don't (touch wood) suffer from the damp in rooms though. One thing I've discovered that works incredibly well when I do get damp is a foam that you can put on mould on walls. I'd used Dettol Mould & Mildew which I have to say is very good, but the foam is wonderful. I had a bit of wall which was black and I thought I was going to have to repaint the whole room but I used this foam on it and the black disappeared  magical it were magical


----------



## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Kettle is, from memory, a 3KWh kettle BUT we don't over fill it and it gets used maybe 3 times a day, say for 15-20 minutes, so, yes, that's 1KW but it's not over filled and that's about a minimum usage - Washing machine hasn't been on today at all - dishwasher is currently on and the meter is hardly "spinning like a top" so I'll live with that consumption
> 
> It's not so much how much we use . . . well, it is . . . but more the "average" consumption being so much lower than where we are, that's what'd doing my head - It'd be easy to get below that, we had zero consumption this morning, but everything was switched off, so we can control our usage just life would be shit. And I don't feel that we are profligate in our usage either


I've made a kettle cosy out of an old pillow case and a zip-up pillowcase protector and some small expanded polystyrene balls.  Only filling it to what you're going to use would be favourite admittedly but I always forget.


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## WouldBe (Mar 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> a lot determined by height of rooms I think. Mine are quite low. Victorian rooms are lovely but a bugger to heat because it all goes to the top of the room.


I've lowered my ceilings by 6" and stuck 7" of insulation in the space above.


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## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

that's highly sensible - I've seen people suspending fabric from the ceiling but that's much better idea. 

Interested how you've lowered ceilings by 6" and added 7" of insulation above though


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## WouldBe (Mar 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> that's highly sensible - I've seen people suspending fabric from the ceiling but that's much better idea.
> 
> Interested how you've lowered ceilings by 6" and added 7" of insulation above though


Ceiling joists were only 6" to start with and not really big enough for the span nevermind having chunks hacked out over the years for gas lighting, plumbing, electrics and central heating. So joists were removed and 9" joists fitted with 3x2" at right angles over the top. This leaves space for pipes and cables without having to cut into joists and leaves a 9" gap to put 7" insulation in without it causing problems to cables overheating.

You could just put 3x2" on joist hangers under the ceiling and stick the insulation in there and plasterboard underneath.

No point heating floor voids.


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## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

When I had my place done up they wanted to add insulation to the downstairs ceilings but as they were only floorboards I said no because any heat going upwards would go upstairs which I had no objection to.


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## Elpenor (Mar 1, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Does it work that way though? We've moving soon to somewhere bigger, but I'm pretty sure that's it's actually going to cost less to heat.


you’re probably right, I’ll be avoiding anything Victorian due to the reasons others have said. Where I am now is quite old but has thick solid walls and according to the landlord was well insulated after the floods a few years ago.


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## WouldBe (Mar 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Bulb have us on an "estimate" annual usage of 5200KWh per year - which meant nothing to me, until a quick Google later informs me that the average annual consumption for a family of 3 is 3200KWh per year . . . Gulp!


My electric usage is 1776KWh over the last 13 months (that's what my smart meter provides instead of for a year!!!!). That's for just me in a 4 bed house and includes using an electric immersion heater for hot water (1 day a week) in the summer months.

From 1st Apr my estimated annual bills are £581 for electric, £115 for gas (only used for gas fire) and around £400 for firewood. That's with utility warehouse.


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## two sheds (Mar 1, 2022)

I've estimated mine at £810 for electricity (no gas, no wood) in 1850s house with stone/clay/stone walls but with insulating wallpaper, secondary glazing and draughtproofing. That's about £400 py for electrical heating. But again that's with pv powering computer and most of cooking during the summer.


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## gentlegreen (Mar 2, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Try and get something other than a fan heater, those use a lot of juice.


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## two sheds (Mar 2, 2022)

I'm using a fan heater right up close to me which seems to work well - 1 kW for a few hours when it's bloody cold. Only heats me, mind, rather than heating the house.


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## gentlegreen (Mar 2, 2022)

Yes - apart from the annoyance of the noise, in my situation it works very well sat under my desk..
I reckon 4 units a day is reasonable for heating.
It's been a milder winter and I'm better insulated, but I haven't felt the need to fire up my radiator this winter so am using a lot less electricity.

At some point in the future I'm definitely going to have heated clothing.


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## two sheds (Mar 2, 2022)

I've added another layer of top clothing today. 

I will next year study an air-air heat pump downstairs hopefully heating the air to come upstairs if I can seal any holes in the house fabric.


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## Badgers (Mar 2, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Because privatisation = customer choice = choose freely between freezing or starving.


Are the shareholders OK?


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## Badgers (Mar 2, 2022)

sheothebudworths said:


> Yeah, I mean I'm not sure what answer you were hoping for there to justify it all Sasaferrato or what other point you are making yourself?
> It's really scary.


#ToryScum 🙄


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## Badgers (Mar 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Calling a poster a cunt is one thing, but hoping they die is bang out of order.


If you support the #ToryScum and support greedy energy companies then you are complicit in a lot of deaths.

So fuck him


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## AnnaKarpik (Mar 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> It's damp in cornwall and I don't heat all the rooms. Fairly lucky that I don't (touch wood) suffer from the damp in rooms though. One thing I've discovered that works incredibly well when I do get damp is a foam that you can put on mould on walls. I'd used Dettol Mould & Mildew which I have to say is very good, but the foam is wonderful. I had a bit of wall which was black and I thought I was going to have to repaint the whole room but I used this foam on it and the black disappeared  magical it were magical


Tell me! Tell me quick, what is it?


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 2, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Tell me! Tell me quick, what is it?



"Paint"


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## Badgers (Mar 2, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> I don't suppose anyone's ever thought about having the power owned by the state to keep the price down have they.


Dunno?


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## two sheds (Mar 2, 2022)

this at least I'm pretty sure - I've lent it to a neighbour and he's not given it me back yet

did I mention it's magical?

also there's some chlorine in but I don't think there's as much as in the dettol mould & mildew spray.


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## Badgers (Mar 2, 2022)

Perhaps the #ToryScum will use some of their Russian millions and millions to support the people they represent?


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## Badgers (Mar 2, 2022)

What do you advise here Sasaferrato #ToryScum


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## Saunders (Mar 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> this at least I'm pretty sure - I've lent it to a neighbour and he's not given it me back yet
> 
> did I mention it's magical?
> 
> also there's some chlorine in but I don't think there's as much as in the dettol mould & mildew spray.


Excellent stuff


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## AnnaKarpik (Mar 2, 2022)

Also, are prices not set to rise by 54%? Rather than, say, 300%?
The first thing I do when my supplier sends a garbled letter* 'explaining' how they arrived at a grossly inflated direct debit figure is get in touch to give them a more realistic direct debit figure and insist upon it. 

*EDF neglected to factor in my not inconsiderable overpayments when they were last in touch as well as overstating projected consumption and excluding any information that would enable a direct comparison to a previous period. I have a spreadsheet with all the meter readings, prices and averages since we moved to this house. I offered to send a copy to EDF but they refused. Oddly.


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## platinumsage (Mar 2, 2022)

There goes any hope of prices coming down slightly at the October price cap:


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## MickiQ (Mar 2, 2022)

Badgers said:


> Perhaps the #ToryScum will use some of their Russian millions and millions to support the people they represent?


You're a funny guy Badgers


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## stdP (Mar 2, 2022)

Badgers said:


> Perhaps the #ToryScum will use some of their Russian millions and millions to support the people they represent?



They *are* supporting the people they represent.


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## MickiQ (Mar 4, 2022)

I was expecting these emails but Sweet Jesus they were still a shock


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## High Voltage (Mar 4, 2022)

For any unite the union members just a reminder that they are doing their annual energy mass purchase in June. Previously I’ve not bothered but I’ve registered my interest and will just have to suck up three months of Bulbs new prices


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## StoneRoad (Mar 4, 2022)

It is particularly overcast & dull today, a bit less than it was this time yesterday.
However, I've managed without putting on the lights for both days, and as it's not actually frosty today I'll have something unheated for lunch, apart from another mug of coffee.

Little things ...

I was planning on logging up some more firewood this afternoon, but the rain last night & yesterday have knocked that back for a couple of days.
Need to bring some more of the ready to use pile indoors, preferably the thinner stuff.
Only problem with that is it burns up too quickly, unless very carefully loaded into the firebox.


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## magneze (Mar 5, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> For any unite the union members just a reminder that they are doing their annual energy mass purchase in June. Previously I’ve not bothered but I’ve registered my interest and will just have to suck up three months of Bulbs new prices


Where do you register interest? I'm a long time member but couldn't  find info about this.


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## platinumsage (Mar 5, 2022)

magneze said:


> Where do you register interest? I'm a long time member but couldn't  find info about this.



Anyone can do it, Unite just add their branding to this scheme: Switch Together to lower your energy bill.

Don't expect anything beneficial to come of it that you couldn't achieve yourself by comparing suppliers.


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## prunus (Mar 5, 2022)

Hmm, just had a look at what fixed rate deals my supplier (Octopus) might offer, just for interest. 

Electricity 37p/kWh, gas 11.5p/kWh. 

I think I might not…


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## platinumsage (Mar 5, 2022)

prunus said:


> Hmm, just had a look at what fixed rate deals my supplier (Octopus) might offer, just for interest.
> 
> Electricity 37p/kWh, gas 11.5p/kWh.
> 
> I think I might not…



Those rates are similar to what the standard capped rates from October would be if there were another 50% increase to the cap, which is probably the most likely scenario. However paying those rates for 12 months from now until April 2023 instead of for six months from October wouldn't be a good idea - I can't see that the small risk of a much higher cap rate would justify it.


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## Buddy Bradley (Mar 5, 2022)

We're with Octopus, just had a notification that our electric is going up to around 2 grand a year.


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## High Voltage (Mar 5, 2022)

magneze said:


> Where do you register interest? I'm a long time member but couldn't  find info about this.











						Switch Together to lower your energy bill.
					

Join the collective energy switch and see how much you can save on your energy bills. It is easy, free and without obligation.




					bigcommunityswitch.co.uk
				




This is not a straightforward comparison, this is a grouping together of union members and they then get "several" energy suppliers to tender for however many members are in the pool(?) currently there's over 16,000 showing interest

The claim is that the average saving is in the region of £150 . . . but we'll see


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## High Voltage (Mar 5, 2022)

Ooo!! and in other news

It would appear that we've tracked down the item that is massively tipping us over the national average for a 3 bed house

Once again, it was the saintly Mrs Voltz who raised this as a potential power leech, despite my protestations that it couldn't be and that was the underfloor heating in the bathroom - when we put it in the energy consumption was given as "around 40p / day" which we could live with, but that was back when electricity was 'apence three farthings a wattnot per week

Now, in my defence I've checked and double checked the power usage for the same make as we've got but I'm not 100% convinced whether we've got the 150watt or the 200watt system. So I've done all my workings on the 200watt system. I've measured the bathroom floor and rounded up the floor area to again, trying for worst case scenario.

So my figurings were:-
2 sq m heated area at 200watt per meter = 400watts per hour - I'm unsure as to how long it's on for, Mrs Voltz is IC timer on this one. Long story short, I switched it off totally and the 24hr power consumption went from "around" 10KHw to "around" 7KWh - which is actually below the national average, but during that time we ran no other "power hungry" items

Other points of interest are - the fridge freezer uses "around" 1KW / day - just being a fridge freezer
The TV plug - which powered the TV and soundbar uses "around" .6KW / day
The dishwasher on the eco mode uses .74KW for a complete cycle
We've also established that the 3way valve on the central heating / water heater appears to be broken so whilst we were switching the boiler on to heat the water it wasn't actually heating any water - the 3KW immersion element was doing ALL the heating. So that's in the process of being fixed

Providing the underfloor heater IS the hidden energy user then switching it off in the summer (yes, I know, but I thought it only cost tuppence to run and we have ceramic floor tiles in the bathroom) could almost off set most of this price increase

And getting the LPG boiler to actually heat the water rather than just burning gas won't be a bad thing either

Every day's a school day


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## A380 (Mar 5, 2022)

As a result of this thread I dug out my old consumer smart meter. It links to my supplier to show electricity and gas usage and price.

It was scary. When I got it, about three years ago it was interesting to see but was small amount of cash. It was horrendous yesterday seeing the pounds tick up even with out much on. i might turn it off again...


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## MickiQ (Mar 5, 2022)

A380 said:


> As a result of this thread I dug out my old consumer smart meter. It links to my supplier to show electricity and gas usage and price.
> 
> It was scary. When I got it, about three years ago it was interesting to see but was small amount of cash. It was horrendous yesterday seeing the pounds tick up even with out much on. i might turn it off again...


Can't worry about what you don't know eh?


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## gentlegreen (Mar 5, 2022)

The good thing about this thread is it's spurring me to see how little energy I can use in future.


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## two sheds (Mar 5, 2022)

I want one of those for when I start falling over


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## pogofish (Mar 5, 2022)

Got the email yesterday- my electricity is going up by about a third and gas by about half from April first.
This is on top of several smaller rises/adjustments that have put my bills up about a quarter since the summer.


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## ska invita (Mar 5, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> There goes any hope of prices coming down slightly at the October price cap:
> 
> View attachment 312475



Still going up...508p now


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 6, 2022)

According to British Gas (my old supplier went under) my bill from April will be about 400% of my bill a year ago
I'm _still_ renting so no option to sort myself out with a wood burner or similar
And because of the housing crisis I can't risk moving anyone in with me to split the bills else I'll get kicked out and have to pay double what I'm paying now (which is already a lot)
Am worried I've got a pay cut or redundancy coming at work because the energy bills are causing a massive strain there too


I think the heating at home is all gas, if I plugged in some electric heaters would they be cheaper?


----------



## Cat Fan (Mar 6, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> According to British Gas (my old supplier went under) my bill from April will be about 400% of my bill a year ago
> I'm _still_ renting so no option to sort myself out with a wood burner or similar
> And because of the housing crisis I can't risk moving anyone in with me to split the bills else I'll get kicked out and have to pay double what I'm paying now (which is already a lot)
> Am worried I've got a pay cut or redundancy coming at work because the energy bills are causing a massive strain there too
> ...


Unfortunately no, my understanding is that both electricity and gas prices are up by a similar amount due to the price cap and generally speaking gas heating is more cost effective.

I can't help but think this energy crisis will end up triggering a recession and the government is sleepwalking into it


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## WouldBe (Mar 6, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> I think the heating at home is all gas, if I plugged in some electric heaters would they be cheaper?


Electricity is more expensive than gas. You can reduce your gas bill by turning off radiators in rooms you don't use regularly and keeping doors closed. An electric heater in the room you use most might be cheaper if you turn off the gas boiler.


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## muscovyduck (Mar 6, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Electricity is more expensive than gas. You can reduce your gas bill by turning off radiators in rooms you don't use regularly and keeping doors closed. An electric heater in the room you use most might be cheaper if you turn off the gas boiler.


Ah cheers thanks.

I think I was in a bit of a flap because I've not been on a variable contract before but I clicked this morning I won't be paying what I've had to pay for February every month because I'll be using less over summer

I've also stumbled across this video on Youtube which might be useful for people looking for every last bit of insulating they can do (lets see if I can figure out how to insert it)


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## MickiQ (Mar 6, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> According to British Gas (my old supplier went under) my bill from April will be about 400% of my bill a year ago
> I'm _still_ renting so no option to sort myself out with a wood burner or similar
> And because of the housing crisis I can't risk moving anyone in with me to split the bills else I'll get kicked out and have to pay double what I'm paying now (which is already a lot)
> Am worried I've got a pay cut or redundancy coming at work because the energy bills are causing a massive strain there too
> ...


Trying to heat your house with electric fan heaters would be ruinious since gas costs roughly a quarter of what electric does when it comes to heat. Fan Heaters are meant for quick heat and the cost be damned. 
What I've done (having just about got over my shock from the emails from British Gas) is changed my CH so that instead of going off at 11.00am it now goes off at 8.00am (around the time Mrs Q leaves for work) and comes back on an hour before she gets home.
Even with the valves in unused rooms turned down it's not worth heating the entire house with just me in it. I spend most of the day in one room with ocasional trips to the kitchen and the bathroom (OK the latter more frequently than the first I am a 64 yo male after all). I've bought myself an electric oil heater from the Empire of Evil which I can plug in if I decide it's too chilly in my office. They take a bit longer than fan heaters to get warm but are more efficient if I want to leave it on for a few hours.
Mine is a 1500W one that cost £50 but they range from £35-£100+ and from 800W-3000W depending on your budget and heating needs.


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## two sheds (Mar 6, 2022)

I agree with that, although my fan heater's 1 kW (hardly ever use 2kW setting) and I have it close to me - instant heat and also 100% efficient.


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## gentlegreen (Mar 6, 2022)

I haven't used my electric radiator once this year - targetted heat is definitely where it's at in addition to the aforementioned lagging ....
Cycling home from work used to benefit me hugely in terms of not feeling the need for heating for quite a while after I got home ... activity will hopefully play a part again in the future ...


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 6, 2022)

Wonder if it’s even possible to get a mass leccy strike going


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 6, 2022)

read something to the effect that if you're on under 25's rate universal credit, 10 % of your income will go on the standing charges if you have gas and electric



i did sign up to ebico on principle a few years ago in part because they didn't have daily standing charges, but they stopped that a while before they went out of business.


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## muscovyduck (Mar 6, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Wonder if it’s even possible to get a mass leccy strike going


doesn't look like we're going to have much of a choice the way its going


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 6, 2022)

for the work-from-home contingent, has anyone tried turning a desk / table in to something akin to a kotatsu?  (blanket or quilt covering the table and your legs, small heater under the table)

I did find a fan heater under the desk a good thing in my last job when I went in at weekends (the office central heating wasn't on at weekends) but didn't go quite as far as adding the blanket - desk was the sort that was closed in on two sides underneath which helped.  

don't think it would work with my current computer desk arrangement.

also good for keeping kittehs warm


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## contadino (Mar 6, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> for the work-from-home contingent, has anyone tried turning a desk / table in to something akin to a kotatsu?  (blanket or quilt covering the table and your legs, small heater under the table)
> 
> I did find a fan heater under the desk a good thing in my last job when I went in at weekends (the office central heating wasn't on at weekends) but didn't go quite as far as adding the blanket - desk was the sort that was closed in on two sides underneath which helped.
> 
> ...


It's my hands and head that gets cold, rather than knees/legs. My study/office is a pretty small room and a 600w oil filled radiator keeps it workable until the dog piles in without shutting the door behind him.


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 6, 2022)

contadino said:


> It's my hands and head that gets cold, rather than knees/legs.





hat?

i used to work with someone who would wear his trilby in the office if it was cold.

if it was really cold he'd wear a balaclava, then put his trilby on top of that

he was a bit odd, even by that organisation's standards...


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## WouldBe (Mar 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I haven't used my electric radiator once this year - targetted heat is definitely where it's at in addition to the aforementioned lagging ....
> Cycling home from work used to benefit me hugely in terms of not feeling the need for heating for quite a while after I got home ... activity will hopefully play a part again in the future ...


Get or rig up an exercise bike and set up a generator to make your own electric.


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## two sheds (Mar 6, 2022)

I've thought of it :eek; would only power a 3W lamp though 

And local heat is good for keeping me warm but it would be nice to warm up the house as a whole, hence thinking of a heat pump if I can seal all the gaps.

Eta I'm lying  



> Pedaling a bike at a reasonable pace generates about 100 watts of power. That’s the same energy-per-time used by a 100-watt lightbulb. So if you pedaled eight hours every day for 30 days (no weekends off), then doing the math, you’d generate 24 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of energy.


so almost the computer, but define 'reasonable pace' though


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## Elpenor (Mar 6, 2022)

Long johns are handy. When I lived in a flat with no heating and an enormous single glazed 8x 10ft window I used fingerless gloves too


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## two sheds (Mar 6, 2022)

A couple of mates insist on turning the central heating up to 20C or more during the winter and sitting there in shorts  

actually gives me a headache that warm, and I have a feeling they'll be adding extra pullies soon.


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## WouldBe (Mar 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I've thought of it :eek; would only power a 3W lamp though


Have used the dynamo on a push bike to charge a motorbike battery before.


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## WouldBe (Mar 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> A couple of mates insist on turning the central heating up to 20C or more during the winter and sitting there in shorts


One of my neighbours are like that and even have the heating on while out at work. 

Neighbours on the other side seem to think the way to regulate the heating is to open the windows further.


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## gentlegreen (Mar 6, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Get or rig up an exercise bike and set up a generator to make your own electric.


I had a half-hearted attempt to make one in 2020.
Runkeeper has clocked me up to a couple of hundred watts on rides...


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## two sheds (Mar 6, 2022)

Would make gaming very difficult  not to mention typing


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## gentlegreen (Mar 6, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> hat?


I even wear one in bed.


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## two sheds (Mar 6, 2022)

I'm sat in the conservatory at 10C because I have a new dog ❤️ and don't want to leave him on his own. I have my quilted jacket on and it's actually not too bad. Fingers are a tad cold mind.


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## WouldBe (Mar 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I'm sat in the conservatory at 10C because I have a new dog ❤️ and don't want to leave him on his own. I have my quilted jacket on and it's actually not too bad. Fingers are a tad cold mind.


Get the dog to do the exercise then snuggle up to the dog.


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 6, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Neighbours on the other side seem to think the way to regulate the heating is to open the windows further.



is there a way you could harvest some of the hot air as it escapes?


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## geminisnake (Mar 7, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Let's have a look at the electric then
> 
> Bulb have us on an "estimate" annual usage of 5200KWh per year - which meant nothing to me, until a quick Google later informs me that the average annual consumption for a family of 3 is 3200KWh per year . . . Gulp!


Wtf?? 2 adults in a 3 bedroom house with a coal fire, we have solar panels but only some of that reduces out bill cos the council cream some of the money off, our annual usage
Your Annual Usage
*1520 kWh (Actual)
The basts are doubling my standing charge on the 1st of April though, cnuts, sorry if the font has changed, no idea how to sort it*


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## Yuwipi Woman (Mar 7, 2022)

Everything is going up except my paycheck.


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## High Voltage (Mar 7, 2022)

geminisnake said:


> Wtf?? 2 adults in a 3 bedroom house with a coal fire, we have solar panels but only some of that reduces out bill cos the council cream some of the money off, our annual usage
> Your Annual Usage
> *1520 kWh (Actual)
> The basts are doubling my standing charge on the 1st of April though, cnuts, sorry if the font has changed, no idea how to sort it*


No. Our estimated usage was 5200KWh not 1520KWh

But now I've done some digging I can get it annual usage below the average


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## MickiQ (Mar 7, 2022)

Standing Charges are just Legalized Theft cunningly disguised as Legalized Extortion.

Let us use  the Q household extortion demand (sorry estimate) as an example. They're quoting £1381.93 paying 44.75p Standing Charge and 27.627p per KWh.

So the standing charge comes to £163.34 per year or £13.62 a month which is before a single electron flows through the wire.  The rest works out at 5002 Kwh (I used 4411Kwh last year so they haven't exactly used much imagination in the calculations)
if the standing charge was absorbed into the cost of the electric itself it would go up to 30.89p per KWh so someone would get 528Kwh by paying out the same amount as the standing charge as opposed to the current system of paying the standing charge and getting FUCK ALL.

Granted that 528KWh per year doesn't sound a lot and indeed isn't but the Q home is a detached house in the suburbs which up until recently had 5 adults in it so our electricity consumption is necessarily larger than someone living in a small flat on their own. There are lots of people who will be a lot closer to that break even point than we are.
With standing charges we are going to have people going to bed as soon as it gets dark and eating cold beans most meals yet still shelling out £20+ a month for next to nothing.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 8, 2022)




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## platinumsage (Mar 8, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Standing Charges are just Legalized Theft cunningly disguised as Legalized Extortion.



Nonsense. Standing charges pay for the fixed costs of the distribution network such as metering, cables, pipes etc. These costs are created by you simply being connected.

The alternative of allowing landlords of empty properties to pay nothing while actual consumers have the costs added to their bill in proportion to their usage would be inequitable.


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## Chz (Mar 8, 2022)

I was unsure when I renewed at a fixed rate last year if I wanted one or two years. Bloody happy I took the two now!
Being in a masionette with neighbours on three sides, double glazing, fairly new boiler, etc our gas usage isn't really all that much. It's the 'leccy that kills us. Especially in winter with a dehumidifier (cheap bastard double glazing has no vents in it!) and the tumble dryer (heat pump, but even so...) in use.


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## Bingoman (Mar 8, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


>



Wow that is some price rise


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## MickiQ (Mar 8, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Nonsense. Standing charges pay for the fixed costs of the distribution network such as metering, cables, pipes etc. These costs are created by you simply being connected.
> 
> The alternative of allowing landlords of empty properties to pay nothing while actual consumers have the costs added to their bill in proportion to their usage would be inequitable.


Landlords leaving properties to stand empty can simply turn the electric and gas off and avoid paying the standing charge anyway. If we want to discourage landlords from leaving homes to stand empty, a better way is tax those doing so directly.
Expecting poorer people to pay a sizable sum up front without direct benefit (or any leccy)  because we are worried that some landlords might save some money strikes me as far more inequitable. Putting the standing charge on the actual cost seems more equitable to me since they are getting some electric from their first penny not from their 1633rd one. (better if it was just scrapped though)
As for the infrastructure argument I really don't buy that, my house was built in the 1990's, I'm pretty certain that the capital cost of the direct infrastructure to my house has been long paid off so why should I pay directly for infrastructure elsewhere?
Let it come out of British Gas's profits, investment is tax deductable anyway. 
Tesco's don't add an infrastructure charge to my grocery bill to pay for the cost of building the store so why should the utility companies get away with it?


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## sojourner (Mar 8, 2022)

contadino said:


> It's my hands and head that gets cold, rather than knees/legs. My study/office is a pretty small room and a 600w oil filled radiator keeps it workable until the dog piles in without shutting the door behind him.


Get a rechargeable hand warmer, the charge lasts for ages, and they work brilliantly for not only warming hands, but by extension, making you feel warmer all over. I wouldn't be without mine.


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## Chilli.s (Mar 8, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Nonsense. Standing charges pay for the fixed costs of the distribution network such as metering, cables, pipes etc. These costs are created by you simply being connected.


Then why are they going up 100%? Doubled the size of the network? twice the customers as last year?


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## platinumsage (Mar 8, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Then why are they going up 100%? Doubled the size of the network? twice the customers as last year?



The electricity standing charge is increasing significantly this year to cover the costs of administering the failed suppliers.


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## MickiQ (Mar 8, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> The electricity standing charge is increasing significantly this year to cover the costs of administering the failed suppliers.


So fucking what? The cost of failed businesses is being unloaded onto the general public now? A business goes to the wall then shareholders lose their money, that's what being a shareholder is. You take the risks of failure but reap the rewards of success.
There was loads of money sunk into these 'smoke and mirrors' suppliers let those that did it foot the bill.
Going on my own figures my electric bill is going to come to £115.16 per month (ouch) but I can actually afford that the Q household is comfortably well off. For me the standing charge is 11.8% of the cost, averaged out across my 5002KWh it comes to me to an average cost of 30.9p per KWh.
Let's take an example of someone who can afford say £60 a month and can keep to that figure. For them the Standing Charge is 22.7% of the total bill so they use (or struggle by) on 2014KWh so they pay an average of 35.74p per KWh. Not only do I get my electric cheaper than someone who can only afford to spend half what I do but I don't have to skimp (as much) either. Whereas if there was no Standing Charge and they were paying the same average rate as me of 30.9p then £60 would buy them 2330KWh , 16% more energy for the same cost.  The poorer you are and the less spare cash you have to spend after the Standing Charge is taken, the higher the average price you will pay. I'm struggling to see either the justification for this or any fairness in it.


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## platinumsage (Mar 8, 2022)

The cost of failed suppliers couldn’t come from the shareholders as the companies concerned had no money left.

I‘m not arguing for the current privatised system, just trying to explain the billing rationale

Standing charges have always been in place afaik, and were the norm in the state-owned era before competition saw some suppliers offer zero standing charge tariffs.

If you remove standing charges and transfer the cost to unit rates it would help low users, but many poorer people are high users, especially of gas - the elderly and large families in older properties for example. They would be adversely affected.

I think you‘re conflating the issue of energy affordability in general with a specific billing system that isn’t the root of all evil. Certainly your claim standing charges are “Legalized Theft cunningly disguised as Legalized Extortion” came over as bit FOTLy.


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## WouldBe (Mar 8, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Nonsense. Standing charges pay for the fixed costs of the distribution network such as metering, cables, pipes etc. These costs are created by you simply being connected.


Doesn't make sense. No additional wiring or substations have been put in it's just the cost of gas that had increased.


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## platinumsage (Mar 8, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Doesn't make sense. No additional wiring or substations have been put in it's just the cost of gas that had increased.



The breakdown of what contributes to standing charge increases is on the Ofgem website somewhere if you’re really that interested.


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## xenon (Mar 8, 2022)

I'm expecting a shockingly large bill next month. My supplier went bust and I've been transferred to British Gas. For some reason it seemed like a good idea to go quarterly for the moment. Pretty sure I was in credit with the previous supplier. Have cancelled DD. Probably got some mail wingeing about that to read.


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## xenon (Mar 8, 2022)

elbows said:


> Energy bills: ‘I got a green deal, so why am I paying eye-watering sums?’
> 
> 
> Some Britons on renewable energy deals promising green power face higher bills than standard tariffs
> ...



I was with Bristol Energy on their green tarif. They've had some... issues, and were taken over by some other nnorthern council owned company, which in turn went bust. 

I'd prefer to be on a green tarif from a putting your money where your mouth is PoV but will have to see what BG stick me on.


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## xenon (Mar 8, 2022)

My mate rents in a shared house, rent and bills included. Unbelievable I know but the landlord said because he had to put the bills up, he was going to lower the rent to conpensate.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Mar 8, 2022)

Chz said:


> I was unsure when I renewed at a fixed rate last year if I wanted one or two years. Bloody happy I took the two now!
> Being in a masionette with neighbours on three sides, double glazing, fairly new boiler, etc our gas usage isn't really all that much. It's the 'leccy that kills us. Especially in winter with a dehumidifier (cheap bastard double glazing has no vents in it!) and the tumble dryer (heat pump, but even so...) in use.



I did something similar this year, but my costs still went up by 30%.  I was shocked at the time, but It'll probably work when compared against my other options.


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## WouldBe (Mar 8, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> The breakdown of what contributes to standing charge increases is on the Ofgem website somewhere if you’re really that interested.


In a few months when most of our electric comes from wind and solar with no gas being used for generation our bills should plummet. Somehow I can't see it happening.


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## MickiQ (Mar 8, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> If you remove standing charges and transfer the cost to unit rates it would help low users, but many poorer people are high users, especially of gas - the elderly and large families in older properties for example. They would be adversely affected.


OK spread the standing charge cost over a greater figure than mine I just used me as an example for basis of my calculations rather than an recommended figure. If we can't abolish the standing charge altogether then average it out over say 10000KWh per annum (twice mine), I don't want to stick the elderly with higher fuel bills either but I don't mind sticking it to people running weed farms.


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## platinumsage (Mar 8, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> In a few months when most of our electric comes from wind and solar with no gas being used for generation our bills should plummet. Somehow I can't see it happening.



The price cap accounts for backdated wholesale costs. So from April the higher prices will reflect the costs from last August to February, and the rising costs now will be paid for from October.

Blame Theresa May, Ed Milliband, John Major etc for how needlessly complicated it all is.


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## WouldBe (Mar 8, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> OK spread the standing charge cost over a greater figure than mine I just used me as an example for basis of my calculations rather than an recommended figure. If we can't abolish the standing charge altogether then average it out over say 10000KWh per annum (twice mine), I don't want to stick the elderly with higher fuel bills either but I don't mind sticking it to people running weed farms.


Not sure they are paying for their electric to start with.


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## DJWrongspeed (Mar 9, 2022)

Just got a letter from Octopus Energy yesterday. Elec up 50% and Gas up %90. I don't use much energy but for other households I can see that being a major shock.


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## JimW (Mar 9, 2022)

Made me check the cost per kwh here in rural Beijing and we pay the equivalent of six pence! Had to change the gas bottle we use for cooking yesterday and that had gone up about twenty per cent, from CNY110 to CNY 140 for a 30 kilo bottle. Locals get a subsidy on that and they used to let me have that price too but the depot noticed so I have to pay incomer's full  whack now.


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## prunus (Mar 9, 2022)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Just got a letter from Octopus Energy yesterday. Elec up 50% and Gas up %90. I don't use much energy but for other households I can see that being a major shock.



Yup ditto.  And that's (electricity) up 50% to 30p from the current 20p, which was already up 50% from the 13p it was a year or two ago.  I think.

We've been moving away from gas to all-electric (induction instead of gas hob, heat pump instead of gas boiler), as although gas is cheaper, it can't ever really be green from an emissions pov.  This may turn out to be a more expensive shift that we'd budgeted for.

(Though if the heat pump manages close to its performance coefficient of 500% then it should be an effective 6p/kWh of heat produced which isn't bad.  Not quite the 2.5p I had in the early calculations!  But it is what is is).


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## JimW (Mar 9, 2022)

prunus said:


> Yup ditto.  And that's (electricity) up 50% to 30p from the current 20p, which was already up 50% from the 13p it was a year or two ago.  I think.
> 
> We've been moving away from gas to all-electric (induction instead of gas hob, heat pump instead of gas boiler), as although gas is cheaper, it can't ever really be green from an emissions pov.  This may turn out to be a more expensive shift that we'd budgeted for.
> 
> (Though if the heat pump manages close to its performance coefficient of 500% then it should be an effective 6p/kWh of heat produced which isn't bad.  Not quite the 2.5p I had in the early calculations!  But it is what is is).


We have underfloor heating that works off a heat exchanger, copes well with the very cold winters here at a reasonable cost, though never done exact sums.


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## two sheds (Mar 9, 2022)

prunus said:


> Yup ditto.  And that's (electricity) up 50% to 30p from the current 20p, which was already up 50% from the 13p it was a year or two ago.  I think.
> 
> We've been moving away from gas to all-electric (induction instead of gas hob, heat pump instead of gas boiler), as although gas is cheaper, it can't ever really be green from an emissions pov.  This may turn out to be a more expensive shift that we'd budgeted for.
> 
> (Though if the heat pump manages close to its performance coefficient of 500% then it should be an effective 6p/kWh of heat produced which isn't bad.  Not quite the 2.5p I had in the early calculations!  But it is what is is).


Interesting on heat pump. I presume your place is well insulated. Where is the heat pump? What type is it and what's the output (kW and air or water?). COP of 5 is pretty fucking good.


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## prunus (Mar 9, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Interesting on heat pump. I presume your place is well insulated. Where is the heat pump? What type is it and what's the output (kW and air or water?). COP of 5 is pretty fucking good.



Oh yes insulated to buggery (or it will be when it's finished anyway), with the majority of the heat being put into low temp underfloor (with 12 inches of insulation underneath) for maximum efficiency.  Large thermal mass (stone floors) as well, so will have the option of turning off for peak hours an hour or two at a time without making much difference to the ambient.  Will do domestic hw and a few (low-temp) radiators too.  Apparently!  Those are the calculations, we shall see.  Could be an expensive experiment if we have to supplement...

It's called an ecoforest geo, ground source, 5-22kW output (variable).  Claims COP of 5, but that will be under ideal conditions, which of course don't exist in the real world.  I'll be very happy if it manages 3.5.


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## smokedout (Mar 9, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Wonder if it’s even possible to get a mass leccy strike going



About 12/13 years ago I was really skint and stopped paying my gas bill.  After about a year of increasingly stroppy letters and the occassional home visit to tell me off I finally got a court order through permitting them to gain entry and fit a prepay meter.  I rang then up and managed to delay it a couple of times and then said that I wouldn't be in when they came and they'd better watch out for the dogs (I didn't have any dogs).  Anyway I was in when they eventually turned up, with a van load of cops, a locksmith, and a professional dog handler.  As it happens I'd fibbed and the meter was outside the building, so they changed it pretty easily, but the bloke was quite nice and set the repayments at the minimum which back then was £3.50 a week.  The total amount I ended up owing was about £900 I think (they charged me for the dog handler as well the fuckers so it's probably not a good idea to lie about having dogs).  

Anyway tl:dr, it takes a long time for them to get their shit together to do anything about arrears, there's lots could be done to resist (blocking entry into homes for example), it probably wouldn't take much for the whole system to fall over and it would have a great deal of public support.  So you should definitely organise a mass leccy strike.


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## two sheds (Mar 9, 2022)

Nice setup prunus  . Mine's 1850s house that I've insulated as well as I can within limitations. I don't want to mess with the garden or radiators (which don't really do much anyway) so am looking at air-air, which are also loads cheaper - I'm hoping for under a grand. I'll take a look at repayment times this autumn for how much eleccy prices have inflated assuming around COP of 3. It only really needs heating for 4 months of the year.


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## prunus (Mar 9, 2022)

smokedout said:


> About 12/13 years ago I was really skint and stopped paying my gas bill.  After about a year of increasingly stroppy letters and the occassional home visit to tell me off I finally got a court order through permitting them to gain entry and fit a prepay meter.  I rang then up and managed to delay it a couple of times and then said that I wouldn't be in when they came and they'd better watch out for the dogs (I didn't have any dogs).  Anyway I was in when they eventually turned up, with a van load of cops, a locksmith, and a professional dog handler.  As it happens I'd fibbed and the meter was outside the building, so they changed it pretty easily, but the bloke was quite nice and set the repayments at the minimum which back then was £3.50 a week.  The total amount I ended up owing was about £900 I think (they charged me for the dog handler as well the fuckers so it's probably not a good idea to lie about having dogs).
> 
> Anyway tl:dr, it takes a long time for them to get their shit together to do anything about arrears, there's lots could be done to resist (blocking entry into homes for example), it probably wouldn't take much for the whole system to fall over and it would have a great deal of public support.  So you should definitely organise a mass leccy strike.



Unless you’ve got a smart meter, in which case I believe they can disconnect you remotely…?


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## muscovyduck (Mar 9, 2022)

British Gas seem to be accepting they've messed up my bill and seem up for adjusting it down. Cautiously optimistic


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## dessiato (Mar 9, 2022)

I was talking with a friend in Jerez who was saying his bills have already trebled. Luckily, living there, he doesn’t need heating, however, when summer Co and he needs A/C…


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## dessiato (Mar 9, 2022)

Just to reiterate and get feedback from you all. If I put the radiators (gas fired) on the minimum, then open up the fireplaces in the two lounges, keep the water on the on demand boiler, there’s little more I can do. I’ll make sure the draughts are stopped, and all the unused rooms are closed up.


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## two sheds (Mar 9, 2022)

with open wood fires isn't most of your heat going up the chimney? Also when you've not got a fire lit? I presume you've got enough gaps in the rest of the building fabric for ventilation.


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## not a trot (Mar 9, 2022)

Not been able to get an update of our energy usage on the British Gas site since 16th Feb. Smart meter is working ok, but that only displays daily usage. According to BG, it's a temporary technical issue.


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## two sheds (Mar 9, 2022)

An energy efficient woodburner might be better than an open fire if you do want to burn wood, dessi. Is your chimney lined though? 

However I'd wait for someone who knows what they're talking about


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## prunus (Mar 9, 2022)

two sheds said:


> An energy efficient woodburner might be better than an open fire if you do want to burn wood, dessi. Is your chimney lined though?
> 
> However I'd wait for someone who knows what they're talking about



Yes if you want to use solid fuel for heating you’ll get up to 9x the efficiency (useful heat output per unit burned) from a closed stove. Modern ones are as much 90% efficient, whereas open fires can be as low as 10% (and not really more than 20%). But even an old second hand stove (ie cheap) will be about 60% which is from 3 to 6 times better than your fireplace will be. 

Lining a chimney is not necessarily difficult, provided you can get access to the chimneytop somehow. You can buy kits for it.  It needs to be a reasonably straight chimney though - a chimney sweep will be able to tell you - and you’d want to get a sweep in to clean and check the chimneys after opening them up anyway.


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## two sheds (Mar 9, 2022)

two sheds said:


> An energy efficient woodburner might be better than an open fire if you do want to burn wood, dessi. Is your chimney lined though?
> 
> However I'd wait for someone who knows what they're talking about





prunus said:


> Yes if you want to use solid fuel for heating you’ll get up to 9x the efficiency (useful heat output per unit burned) from a closed stove. Modern ones are as much 90% efficient, whereas open fires can be as low as 10% (and not really more than 20%). But even an old second hand stove (ie cheap) will be about 60% which is from 3 to 6 times better than your fireplace will be.
> 
> Lining a chimney is not necessarily difficult, provided you can get access to the chimneytop somehow. You can buy kits for it.  It needs to be a reasonably straight chimney though - a chimney sweep will be able to tell you - and you’d want to get a sweep in to clean and check the chimneys




eta: my chimney sweep said that he didn't think it would be worthwhile replacing my rayburn with an efficient wood burner because rayburns are actually quite efficient. Not sure I believe that though.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 9, 2022)

The problem with the chimneys is that they're a few hundred years old. I doubt they're straight, and unlikely to be lined.

I'll have to look into the possibility of a wood burner in the smaller lounge. The larger lounge still needs to be open. It's a very old fireplace and would be ruined with a woodburner.


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 9, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> No. Our estimated usage was 5200KWh not 1520KWh
> 
> But now I've done some digging I can get it annual usage below the average



Our(mine and mr snake's) usage is the 1520, I was trying to show you what 2 adults actually use, but we don;t have a dishwasher(other than mr snake) or tumble dryer. Dishwashers apparently cost £8 a wash(was looking up leccy saving tips for a friend)


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## two sheds (Mar 9, 2022)

dessiato said:


> The problem with the chimneys is that they're a few hundred years old. I doubt they're straight, and unlikely to be lined.
> 
> I'll have to look into the possibility of a wood burner in the smaller lounge. The larger lounge still needs to be open. It's a very old fireplace and would be ruined with a woodburner.


not air-to-air heat pump with pipe going out of a window (with conversion kit)? Besides wood costs there's £60 a year chimney sweep costs remember. Worth costing out I'd have thought. I'm going to look at 3-year repayment times.

I think


----------



## prunus (Mar 9, 2022)

geminisnake said:


> Our(mine and mr snake's) usage is the 1520, I was trying to show you what 2 adults actually use, but we don;t have a dishwasher(other than mr snake) or tumble dryer. Dishwashers apparently cost £8 a wash(was looking up leccy saving tips for a friend)



I don’t think that thing about dishwashers can be quite right.  A dishwasher program is about 2 hours, they’re on 13A fuses, so they can’t be drawing much more than 3000W, so 3 kWh per hour, or 6 kWh total. Even at the incoming massively inflated rates of 30p/kWh that’s still only £1.80.  A tablet is maybe 10p, the water will be negligible.  

But I am quite drunk.


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 9, 2022)

prunus said:


> A dishwasher program is about 2 hours,


I use mine on a 30 minute program.

My base electric load is around 3kwh a day. When I have the dishwasher on on a Sunday along with 2 loads in the washing machine I only use 6kwh.


----------



## StoneRoad (Mar 10, 2022)

geminisnake & prunus

The £8 in reference to dishwashers / washing machines is, I think, the annual saving of electricity costs if you do one less cycle per week.
[and is for the average, full-size under bench machine]


----------



## platinumsage (Mar 10, 2022)

If you look in your dishwasher or washing machine manual, it should give the exact KWh usage for each program. Often a lengthy "Eco" program will use less electricty than shorter programs.


----------



## prunus (Mar 10, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> geminisnake & prunus
> 
> The £8 in reference to dishwashers / washing machines is, I think, the annual saving of electricity costs if you do one less cycle per week.
> [and is for the average, full-size under bench machine]



Ah so about 16p a wash, that sounds more like it; I imagine that was calculated on the good old days pricing of about 15p kWh so more than that now, but still not much.


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 10, 2022)

Our Miele dishwasher has a state use of .74KWh for the eco cycle and comparing days between dishwasher use and no dishwasher use the electric usage is "about" that. Give or take <.1KWh. With our current price being, say 22p / KWh a dishwash costs ITR 16p as stated above


----------



## welovebadgers (Mar 10, 2022)

prunus said:


> Yes if you want to use solid fuel for heating you’ll get up to 9x the efficiency (useful heat output per unit burned) from a closed stove. Modern ones are as much 90% efficient, whereas open fires can be as low as 10% (and not really more than 20%). But even an old second hand stove (ie cheap) will be about 60% which is from 3 to 6 times better than your fireplace will be.
> 
> Lining a chimney is not necessarily difficult, provided you can get access to the chimneytop somehow. You can buy kits for it.  It needs to be a reasonably straight chimney though - a chimney sweep will be able to tell you - and you’d want to get a sweep in to clean and check the chimneys after opening them up anyway.


if you don’t want difficulties selling your house you need to ensure that any installation is building reg compliant and registered with your local planning office or that you have certification that it has been installed by a ‘competent person’, i.e. HETAS compliant. You’ll need suitable ventilation and a carbon monoxide monitor.

I‘ve just sold my house and realised midway through that the open fire I had installed in 2007 was not compliant as per the 2005/2015 guidelines. Cost me £400 to have it checked, backfilled and recertified.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 10, 2022)

I got a letter from my electricity supplier today, so I can provide hard figures instead of just my reckons.





Ooofff. I don't think it's as bad as some, but that's quite the fucking hike. Still, I am so glad I told the smart meter wankers to fuck off.

I would agree that the increase in the standing charge is absolute fucking robbery. No justification for that kind of money-grasping shit.

Somebody also raised a _very_ good point earlier about how our prices don't drop whenever we get breathless headlines about how much of our energy mix is produced by renewables on windy days.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 10, 2022)

Standing charges have always been a fucking scam. If it’s paying for the network then it’s a stealth tax that as usual hits the poorest hardest.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 10, 2022)

Ok so they moved me to EDF last year I’ve been quietly depressed and hiding from this so it looks like I’ve missed all the good deals because that’s how I cope with trauma. Avoidance. 

Looks like my choice with edf now is stay on the variable or get fixed with a years boiler repair for 2 years 



Variable suggests I’ll be paying about a tenner more (doubt.jpg) but I’ll hopefully moving in a month or so so the possibility of boiler cover is tempting - that early exit charge though 

Not even worth switching providers according to Money Supermarket


----------



## platinumsage (Mar 10, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Ok so they moved me to EDF last year I’ve been quietly depressed and hiding from this so it looks like I’ve missed all the good deals because that’s how I cope with trauma. Avoidance.
> 
> Looks like my choice with edf now is stay on the variable or get fixed with a years boiler repair for 2 years
> 
> ...



It's not a year's free boiler cover, you get six months free but have to pay for the other six months. You make this six months of payments to Domestic & General entirely separately from your electricity bill.

I'd strongly advise not going for those fixed rates - the very hefty early exit fee is an indication of how bad a deal the rates are, as it shows how likely it is you're going to want to pull out at some stage.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 10, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> It's not a year's free boiler cover, you get six months free but have to pay for the other six months. You make this six months of payments to Domestic & General entirely separately from your electricity bill.
> 
> I'd strongly advise not going for those fixed rates - the very hefty early exit fee is an indication of how bad a deal the rates are, as it shows how likely it is you're going to want to pull out at some stage.




Yeah I’m not happy about that early exit. Looks like most other fixed rates have similar, about hundred a year


----------



## platinumsage (Mar 10, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yeah I’m not happy about that early exit. Looks like most other fixed rates have similar, about hundred a year



This week is a bad time to fix.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 10, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> This week is a bad time to fix.



Yes I did note that


----------



## existentialist (Mar 10, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I got a letter from my electricity supplier today, so I can provide hard figures instead of just my reckons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FWIW, anyone who is a bit techie inclined, and wants the benefits of a smart meter without selling your soul to the power companies, I've just got one of these:









						emonPi Energy Monitor
					

Open-source hardware tools for energy monitoring and visualisation




					shop.openenergymonitor.com
				




As a basic, it logs, and provides a website to view graphs of, instantaneous power consumption, and can do various things with the information beyond just doing a pretty graph.

(oh, and it uses a current transformer, so you don't have to mess around with mains power electrics)

Typical example of display:


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## WouldBe (Mar 10, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I got a letter from my electricity supplier today, so I can provide hard figures instead of just my reckons.


How many kWh per year?


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## NoXion (Mar 10, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> How many kWh per year?



Bear in mind I don't use any gas.


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 10, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Bear in mind I don't use any gas.


Electric heating?


----------



## NoXion (Mar 10, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Electric heating?



Unfortunately so. In winter I have the choice of being cold or being poorer. I've invested in a few pairs of woollen long johns which have been a great help so far. I reckon a significant part of the total count will down to the electric boiler though.


----------



## StoneRoad (Mar 11, 2022)

I've been contemplating getting our hot water tank a jacket.
Before anyone yells at me !
This would be in addition to the fixed foam insulation ...

But we don't use the immersion heater very often, the tank is fed heat as if it a radiator with one of those 3-way diverting valves ...
[just after we moved here, the CH system ate three diverter valves in quick succession - as in less than a year. It's now on the fourth, and 'touch wood', that one has lasted well].


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## weepiper (Mar 11, 2022)

Blurgh. Scottish Gas.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 11, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> I've been contemplating getting our hot water tank a jacket.
> Before anyone yells at me !
> This would be in addition to the fixed foam insulation ...
> 
> ...


I store my jumpers and sweatshirts directly on top of the hot water tank in the airing cupboard. Not sure how effective it is but they don't seem to get all that warm.


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 11, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Ooofff. I don't think it's as bad as some, but that's quite the fucking hike. Still, I am so glad I told the smart meter wankers to fuck off.
> 
> I would agree that the increase in the standing charge is absolute fucking robbery. No justification for that kind of money-grasping shit.
> 
> Somebody also raised a _very_ good point earlier about how our prices don't drop whenever we get breathless headlines about how much of our energy mix is produced by renewables on windy days.


Bloody hell . . . I thought that our projected usage of 5200KWh was high . . . shy of 7000KWh!! have you got a grow room on the go?? 

Do you understand where your energy usage is going . . . I know for a fact that I didn't and it's taken me a week or so just measuring stuff and switching stuff off and on to understand what's using what and how I can reduce my energy without really impacting too much on the quality of living

By using an OWL meter (if I was buying new again, I'd get the upgraded one as that appears to let you stream readings over WiFi) and with a couple of power usage plugs and working round each plug with stuff plugged in I'm starting to understand better

And by reading the actual manuals and looking at power consumption from the various manufacturers websites for each kitchen "white box" and then double checking claimed against actual, some of the things that I feared were power hungry actually aren't that bad but what I thought was a negligible user was pretty major, at least how we were using it


----------



## extra dry (Mar 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> not air-to-air heat pump with pipe going out of a window (with conversion kit)? Besides wood costs there's £60 a year chimney sweep costs remember. Worth costing out I'd have thought. I'm going to look at 3-year repayment times.
> 
> I think


an open fire place burner built in?  Or open fire then you could cook, well toast stuff, or pan fry so you know options.


----------



## prunus (Mar 11, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> How many kWh per year?



Erm, I'm a bit concerned at all the consternation at a 7MWh annual usage - just checked my account and we used 22MWh of gas _plus_ 6MWh of electricity in the past 12 months.   Unless I've read it wrong.  I mean it has been an usual year, with the house occupied all the time by wfh and so on, but even so.

e2change:  6MWh not 13 of electricity.


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## High Voltage (Mar 11, 2022)

prunus said:


> . . .  _plus_ 13MWh of electricity in the past 12 months.   Unless I've read it wrong.  I mean it has been an usual year, with the house occupied all the time by wfh and so on, but even so.


I really hope you have, 13 MEGA WATTS hours is a fuck of a lot of electricity


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## prunus (Mar 11, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I really hope you have, 13 MEGA WATTS hours is a fuck of a lot of electricity



I had - that was 2 years.  Was 6MWh last 12 months 🙃


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## prunus (Mar 11, 2022)

prunus said:


> I had - that was 2 years.  Was 6MWh last 12 months 🙃



The year before those 2 it was 1.21 Gigawatts.  But that was when we had my eccentric uncle Emmett staying.  Wonder where he disappeared to?


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## Leafster (Mar 11, 2022)

prunus said:


> Erm, I'm a bit concerned at all the consternation at a 7MWh annual usage - just checked my account and we used 22MWh of gas _plus_ 13MWh of electricity in the past 12 months.   Unless I've read it wrong.  I mean it has been an usual year, with the house occupied all the time by wfh and so on, but even so.


I seem to use about 2700kWh of electricity and just under 15,000 kWh of gas. 

It's a 2 bedroom, 2 reception room detached bungalow. I also work from home. 

I think my electricity usage isn't bad but I need to do something about the gas. I've had zoned heating installed so I'm hoping that's going to help reduce unnecessary use but I need to look at the loft insulation.


----------



## Chz (Mar 11, 2022)

Hell, I thought we were high on the 'leccy usage - 3.9MWh for 2021. Plus 5.4MWh of gas.


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## two sheds (Mar 11, 2022)

extra dry said:


> an open fire place burner built in?  Or open fire then you could cook, well toast stuff, or pan fry so you know options.


Believe me, I've considered it. I was tempted by a trivet for boiling things over the open fire, and I have a wood burner that I have cooked over even though the top was a tad cramped. It's the particulates that are discouraging me though.


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## High Voltage (Mar 11, 2022)

I reckon we use, for a small 2 bed detached solid wall cottage with minimal insulation:-

5200KWh electricity
1000 Ltr LPG
2 cubic metres (stacked) wood
10 x 25kg bags smokeless briquettes


----------



## cybershot (Mar 11, 2022)

E.on have just tripled my Direct Debit!!


----------



## Elpenor (Mar 11, 2022)

Starting to wonder if I can afford solar panels


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## two sheds (Mar 11, 2022)

would be interested to know how much a system costs now. Really pleased with mine, free cooking with induction hob and air fryer in the summer plus the controller that diverts the excess to power the immersion. I'm thinking if I get a heat pump for next winter I might be able to power some of that from the panels during the day. I'd have liked larger panels tbh but small roof.


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## Elpenor (Mar 11, 2022)

I’ve done a bit of Googling - seems cheaper than a wind turbine but not much change from 10k. Stopped before I got too depressed at the future cost of electricity. Depends what direction the roof of whatever place I buy is I suppose.


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## two sheds (Mar 11, 2022)

yep mine is SSW which is ideal. What wattage is that? Mine is 2 kW as I say small roof I'd have preferred more. I'd have actually gone for a battery system which is good for summer evenings sat at computer - not so useful in cloudy winter days. I'm presuming deep-cycle batteries will hold their performance even though discharged in winter.


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## Elpenor (Mar 11, 2022)

I can’t remember. Need to take a look on the laptop and write some notes. Battery is something else I need to research but the elephant in the room is how easy this is to fit into a small house. So many of the greener options seem to be designed for those with bigger properties and pockets than ordinary people!


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## two sheds (Mar 11, 2022)

My house is quite small, hence the small roof. It's worked very well for me but that was when you got grants for doing it. Panel prices have dropped since then though. 

As you say though big house large roof makes it really worthwhile.


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## 20Bees (Mar 12, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> I've been contemplating getting our hot water tank a jacket.
> Before anyone yells at me !
> This would be in addition to the fixed foam insulation ...
> 
> ...





two sheds said:


> I store my jumpers and sweatshirts directly on top of the hot water tank in the airing cupboard. Not sure how effective it is but they don't seem to get all that warm.


I have all the sleeping bags and old single duvets draped over mine, also split foam pipe insulation on all the accessible pipes.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 12, 2022)

keeps them all warm


----------



## Elpenor (Mar 12, 2022)

Good idea, I’ve got some old pillows that I’ve kept as they’ll come in handy


----------



## two sheds (Mar 12, 2022)

I'm assuming that most of the heat will be lost out of the top, where the thermostat goes in - perhaps check whether the insulation is warm.


----------



## cybershot (Mar 12, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Starting to wonder if I can afford solar panels


I looked into this, and unless you're in your 'forever home' it's probably not worth it. On average 9 years to break even.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 12, 2022)

When did you check? With prices as they're going that might be shortening considerably.


----------



## Elpenor (Mar 12, 2022)

cybershot said:


> I looked into this, and unless you're in your 'forever home' it's probably not worth it. On average 9 years to break even.


I doubt I’ll be moving again.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 12, 2022)

how heavy are solar panels?  

mum-tat has had something about them (some sort of scheme that lewisham council are doing) but she's not convinced it would be a good idea - house is 1930s and she is concerned it might lead to damage of roof.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 12, 2022)

Plus factor in using the excess energy to heat immersion if you have immersion heater.


----------



## cybershot (Mar 12, 2022)

two sheds said:


> When did you check? With prices as they're going that might be shortening considerably.


A few weeks ago, it was part of some 'energy saving' article. I can't remember where it was published.


----------



## cybershot (Mar 12, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> how heavy are solar panels?
> 
> mum-tat has had something about them (some sort of scheme that lewisham council are doing) but she's not convinced it would be a good idea - house is 1930s and she is concerned it might lead to damage of roof.


The problem with these schemes, and the main reason most people never went with them in the first place when the Govt and energy companies were shoving them down our throats, is that there ends up being tons of dodgy companies that set up exclusively to take the govt cash, and then vanish. Your warranty goes goes down the pan and then there was all this 'you might not be able to sell your house' crap.

Everything set up by Govt/Councils just ends up being a fucking nightmare with red tape bullshit that lingers for years. Solar Panels should be affordable and easy to install with proper warranties regardless of who installs them these days. But, no.


----------



## platinumsage (Mar 12, 2022)

If you have an unsuitable roof but space in the garden you can mount the solar panels on the ground. Cheaper to install and maintain and less grass to cut, but it still provides a habitat underneath for creepy crawlies, blackbirds, hedgehogs etc.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Mar 12, 2022)

Just read this in the Independent from Martin Lewis, makes sense:


> For those paying by direct debit, he suggested taking a meter reading now and again the day before the price cap increases to ensure that as much energy as possible can be charged at the lower rate.


So make sure you give a reading just before end of March.


----------



## Chilli.s (Mar 12, 2022)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Just read this in the Independent from Martin Lewis, makes sense:
> 
> So make sure you give a reading just before end of March.


This is how having to do meter readings and supplying them yourself wins out. Accidentally miss read the meter and pay in advance at the old price.


----------



## Elpenor (Mar 12, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> If you have an unsuitable roof but space in the garden you can mount the solar panels on the ground. Cheaper to install and maintain and less grass to cut, but it still provides a habitat underneath for creepy crawlies, blackbirds, hedgehogs etc.


The ones I see in the countryside usually have sheep grazing around and underneath


----------



## welovebadgers (Mar 12, 2022)

Considering ssolar panels in the house I’m moving in to very soon. Problem is it’s grade 2 listed. Think they’re gonna have to lighten the restrictions given our looming energy crisis.


----------



## Elpenor (Mar 12, 2022)

Asked my surveyor friend about them this morning. He told me that  a lot of new builds have restrictive covenants about erecting solar panels. Because a uniform housing estate is more important obviously


----------



## existentialist (Mar 12, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Asked my surveyor friend about them this morning. He told me that  a lot of new builds have restrictive covenants about erecting solar panels. Because a uniform housing estate is more important obviously


That's just bloody bonkers! Unsurprising, though...


----------



## two sheds (Mar 12, 2022)

Should all fucking have them they'd be nice and uniform then.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 12, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Asked my surveyor friend about them this morning. He told me that  a lot of new builds have restrictive covenants about erecting solar panels. Because a uniform housing estate is more important obviously


Solar panels (and car charging points) needs to be mandatory on any new house


----------



## welovebadgers (Mar 12, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Solar panels (and car charging points) needs to be mandatory on any new house


or ground source heat pumps on housing estates.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 12, 2022)

welovebadgers said:


> or ground source heat pumps on housing estates.


indeed - both because they work well together

eta particularly for air conditioning in summer which can be a huge drain


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 12, 2022)

Think we're going to need a cost of living crisis thread.




(The Economist)


----------



## Leafster (Mar 13, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> how heavy are solar panels?
> 
> mum-tat has had something about them (some sort of scheme that lewisham council are doing) but she's not convinced it would be a good idea - house is 1930s and she is concerned it might lead to damage of roof.


Is that via Solar Together? Surrey were doing something similar. I even got a quote last year but it seemed more expensive (£7k including battery storage) than I imagined even with the supposed "discount". The energy savings at the time were lower than I expected and would have had a payback time of nearly 15 years! Of course, with the increases in energy prices now that time period will have reduced. 


cybershot said:


> The problem with these schemes, and the main reason most people never went with them in the first place when the Govt and energy companies were shoving them down our throats, is that there ends up being tons of dodgy companies that set up exclusively to take the govt cash, and then vanish. Your warranty goes goes down the pan and then there was all this 'you might not be able to sell your house' crap.
> 
> Everything set up by Govt/Councils just ends up being a fucking nightmare with red tape bullshit that lingers for years. Solar Panels should be affordable and easy to install with proper warranties regardless of who installs them these days. But, no.


The uncertainty over the installation company and the products they were using was part of the reason I was reluctant to take it any further. 

I remember with one of the earlier schemes to improve energy efficiency I looked at the list of government backed suppliers and none of them were names I'd heard of.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 13, 2022)

I was always deeply suspicious of the approach that Government took to this whole solar thing. As ever, it seemed less about kickstarting mass adoption of renewables, and more about funnelling revenue through a small number of profit-making companies, who - surprise, surprise - ended up costing the whole thing in a way which maximised profit over doing the best thing in terms of reducing fossil fuel consumption.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Think we're going to need a cost of living crisis thread.
> 
> View attachment 314144
> 
> ...


If Russia is locked out of the world economy and Ukraine unable to produce the quantity of food it usually does, that graph's predictions may turn out to be optimistic


----------



## welovebadgers (Mar 13, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I was always deeply suspicious of the approach that Government took to this whole solar thing. As ever, it seemed less about kickstarting mass adoption of renewables, and more about funnelling revenue through a small number of profit-making companies, who - surprise, surprise - ended up costing the whole thing in a way which maximised profit over doing the best thing in terms of reducing fossil fuel consumption.


I remember readin a while back that a lot of the solar panels are made in China under less than ideal ethical and environmental circumstances. Hoping that if true things have changed more recently.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 13, 2022)

welovebadgers said:


> I remember readin a while back that a lot of the solar panels are made in China under less than ideal ethical and environmental circumstances. Hoping that if true things have changed more recently.



Nah WTO rules enforce competition ensuring that cheapest suppliers from abroad win.


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 13, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Yes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





two sheds said:


> I really hadn't realized how bad they are, but there have been recent articles, eg: Wood burning at home now biggest cause of UK particle pollution


Finally got round to reading these articles. two sheds article is out of date and platinumsage is more up to date and points out errors in the first article. The levels of pm2.5 has been more than halved to 17% from 38% due to assumptions during the survey. Even the updated survey is an estimate based on how owners of woodburners answered the questions. No actual measuring of particulates appears to have been done.

If pm2.5 is bad for asthma then how come cases of asthma were lower in the 50's - 70's when most homes were still burning coal / coke?  50 years of asthma: UK trends from 1955 to 2004 | Thorax (download pdf and look at fig2)

Anecdotally my woodburner is in the dining room at the back of the house. The gutters and window / doorframes have very little dirt on them. The front gutters, window / doorframes are always covered in a sticky black dust due to being next to a main road and bus route.


----------



## StoneRoad (Mar 13, 2022)

Anecdotally ...

Our log burner produces a lot less smoke than the open fire did, even with similar wood as fuel.

The least smoke is on a day with enough wind to keep the fire drawing well, and with well-seasoned & dry hardwood.
The most smoke is from a day without much wind, so the fire doesn't draw properly and attempting to burn sappy, green / resinous and physically wet / dirty softwood.


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 13, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Anecdotally ...
> 
> Our log burner produces a lot less smoke than the open fire did, even with similar wood as fuel.
> 
> ...


Not supposed to burn wet wood. 
Only time I get smoke out of mine is for the first few minutes after lighting it.


----------



## StoneRoad (Mar 14, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Not supposed to burn wet wood.
> Only time I get smoke out of mine is for the first few minutes after lighting it.


I know, but sometimes whoever collected the logs went to the wrong pile !
and some of the unseasoned pile actually looks dry after it's been cut a few months.

We also did some tests last year ...


----------



## two sheds (Mar 14, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Finally got round to reading these articles. two sheds article is out of date and platinumsage is more up to date and points out errors in the first article. The levels of pm2.5 has been more than halved to 17% from 38% due to assumptions during the survey.


Yes, I read that more recent article, too. It still estimates that wood burners release more particulates than traffic despite having far fewer people using them. It still has several passages that emphasize how bad they are.


> “Even after this revision, home use of solid fuel is one of the top two sources of particle pollution in the UK, coming from just 8% of UK homes,” said Gary Fuller, at Imperial College London and a member of the Air Quality Expert Group that advises the government.





WouldBe said:


> Even the updated survey is an estimate based on how owners of woodburners answered the questions. No actual measuring of particulates appears to have been done.


Not from that article:


> The government data on wood burning pollution is based on laboratory tests of stoves. Fuller said: “We need to remember the lessons from VW and dieselgate, where the air pollution produced in the real world was much greater than those in official tests. Data from New Zealand tells us that the same applies to wood burners, with the way that we light fires and the fuels that we use tending to lead to more air pollution than we expect from official tests.”





> “What is staggering is the increase between 2010 and 2020,” said Simon Birkett, of the campaign group Clean Air in London. “There’s still a really big problem. It’s a public health catastrophe, so wood-burning stoves need to be banned urgently. The first step should be to stop the sale or installation of them.”
> 
> Other recent research has shown that wood-burning stoves in urban areas are responsible for almost half of people’s exposure to the cancer-causing chemicals found in air pollution particles. Even wood-burning stoves meeting the new “ecodesign” standard still emit 750 times more tiny particles than a modern HGV truck, another study found, while wood burners also triple the level of harmful pollution inside homes and should be sold with a health warning, according to scientists.





WouldBe said:


> If pm2.5 is bad for asthma then how come cases of asthma were lower in the 50's - 70's when most homes were still burning coal / coke?  50 years of asthma: UK trends from 1955 to 2004 | Thorax (download pdf and look at fig2)
> 
> Anecdotally my woodburner is in the dining room at the back of the house. The gutters and window / doorframes have very little dirt on them. The front gutters, window / doorframes are always covered in a sticky black dust due to being next to a main road and bus route.


Dunno, there are presumably more causes of asthma than just woodburning stoves. There are loads more chemicals around in the house, that may be a factor. I looked at the pdf but it doesn't mention wood, coal or (that I could see) causes of asthma.

Anecdotally I grew up in a house with an open fire and remember the permanent smell of coal dust. My sis recently told me that having seen me get attacks, when she was a doctor at first she didn't think that someone's asthma was too serious unless their face went blue.

It's all a balance, and I'd love to keep using my rayburn, particularly since the wood I've been getting is from woodland management. Wood is renewable and carbon neutral (unless it's somewhere like Drax which uses wood cut down from forests) while gas isn't and as I say there's no gas where I am anyway. The equation has also been distorted by the government having subsidized fossil fuels.

I'm not really intending to tell other people what they should do, I'm more saying why I'm planning to do what I'm doing.That article said the major problem was from woodburning in urban areas while I'm rural. I don't have a car so woodburning would be by far my major contribution to particulates. My asthma isn't going to be helped by burning wood although I do try to keep the rayburn door closed as much as I can, and I'd only be using the rayburn from around December to March, when I need to heat the house so I might as well cook with it too.

I saw somewhere else that we could cut out Russian gas in the UK by installing more solar energy (I think it was) and heat pumps. Ideally I'd like a battery solar system developing enough to power heat pumps in the evening but that's unlikely during winter, so as I say I'm still not sure what's best.


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## contadino (Mar 14, 2022)

It's interesting that on the website a couple of pages back that tracks local particulates, the red bits seem to all follow major roads rather than being clustered around posh houses with woodburners.



two sheds said:


> Dunno, there are presumably more causes of asthma than just woodburning stoves. There are loads more chemicals around in the house, that may be a factor. I looked at the pdf but it doesn't mention wood, coal or (that I could see) causes of asthma.


I was diagnosed with asthma last year - mine's triggered by the cold and according to my doctor it's a very common cause.  Since being diagnosed, I've discovered that all 3 friends of mine with asthma are all cold-triggered. I'm not suggesting that particulates don't play a role in many cases, but it looks to me like the obvious culprit (traffic) is the elephant in the room.


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## two sheds (Mar 14, 2022)

Interesting - my asthma's been worse over the cold weather, too. And yes, there's loads more traffic on the roads since the 50s. I presume the figures for traffic particulates include from tyres and brakes (I got laughed at for suggesting it last time but): 



> While air quality has improved significantly over recent decades, a new report published today (11 July) by the Air Quality Expert Group (AQEG) calls for urgent action to address the problem of tyres and brakes which is predicted to account for 10 per cent of national emissions of PM 2.5 by 2030.











						Government targets particulate matter and microplastic pollution from cars
					

UK Government calls for action to tackle particulate matter released from tyres and brakes.




					www.gov.uk


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Mar 14, 2022)

Just given my meter readings and I have suddenly gone from being £300 plus in credit (I forget how much over £300), to immediately only being £50 in credit since my last bill/reading. I've not used any more energy than usual.


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## welovebadgers (Mar 14, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> If pm2.5 is bad for asthma then how come cases of asthma were lower in the 50's - 70's when most homes were still burning coal / coke?  50 years of asthma: UK trends from 1955 to 2004 | Thorax (download pdf and look at fig2)


I think one of the major contributors to increasing asthma/eczema/allergies is cleanliness and reduction in exposure to serious diseases. Our immune systems have changed very little in evolutionary terms. It evolved to be effective against serious infections and we just don’t see that these days cos we have generally good sanitation, we sanitise everything and vaccinate against a lot of serious illnesses. So our prehistoric immune systems get a bit bored and start to find bits of self to attack. This might confuse the trend you refer to in 50-70 year olds.

Sorry, realise I haven’t quoted any sources but I recall from my healthcare/nursing days that it is pretty widely held that cleanliness and overuse of antibacterials has had ab impact on autoimmune-type conditions.


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## 20Bees (Mar 14, 2022)

The trend for wood burners led to an increase in the outlets selling logs by the net - you certainly couldn’t buy wood from supermarkets and petrol stations when I was a kid. The propensity of that wood to be both inadequately seasoned and hugely overpriced was often the cause of great angst when it didn’t produce a nice fire. It amazes me how many nets of wood we sell in the supermarket where I work. 

I have an oil-fired boiler and and a Rayburn canopied open stove. I have always foraged fallen wood all year round on dog walks, cut branches off my own willow, apple and cherry trees, dry prunings for kindling, and in 30+ years here I have probably bought logs from the farm fewer than 10 times. Sawing wood to size, stacking some in the shed and bringing enough indoors for the week is pleasing, and as long as I can burn a branch or two I’ll not be cold, whatever the oil prices do.

I’m in my 60s, my only neighbours are in their 70s and also burn wood. The dust-producing factory across the village has long closed and is being built on. Fast but infrequent traffic down the lane past our pair of cottages will leave little in the air to worry us, we are generally upwind from the road, and we will relish our indoor fires for as long as we survive here.


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 15, 2022)




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## Aladdin (Mar 15, 2022)

Bord Gais over here has just announced that they are increasing electricitt and gas prices by 40% from April..😳


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## not a trot (Mar 15, 2022)

Received letter today from the council informing me that as I pay my council tax by dd, I should be getting my £150 refund paid into my bank account soon. 
The letter also contained my new council tax bill, £1900.
Over the fucking moon.


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## Elpenor (Mar 15, 2022)

I don’t pay my bill by DD as I get credit card points for doing so. Maybe I should switch


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## Yuwipi Woman (Mar 15, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Standing charges have always been a fucking scam. If it’s paying for the network then it’s a stealth tax that as usual hits the poorest hardest.



I like the way our water bills are structured.  Its arranged in tiers with the people who have the lowest useage, getting not only the lowest rates, but a $10 credit toward the standard charge.  The cost of water rises by tiers the more you use.  This makes water bills run as little was $15 a month for showers and drinking water, to upwards of $300 for someone who waters their lawn regularly, or otherwise use large amounts of water.


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## NoXion (Mar 15, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Received letter today from the council informing me that as I pay my council tax by dd, I should be getting my £150 refund paid into my bank account soon.
> The letter also contained my new council tax bill, £1900.
> Over the fucking moon.



That billing structure. Are you saying that you pay your entire year's worth of council tax in one go? Or is that your monthly figure? 

I don't think I could afford to pay annually. Mine comes in monthly. Apparently I paid about £15 last month. That seems a little... low?


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Asked my surveyor friend about them this morning. He told me that  a lot of new builds have restrictive covenants about erecting solar panels. Because a uniform housing estate is more important obviously



Probably because they're so shoddily built the roofs wouldn't take the weight tbh.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Received letter today from the council informing me that as I pay my council tax by dd, I should be getting my £150 refund paid into my bank account soon.
> The letter also contained my new council tax bill, £1900.
> Over the fucking moon.



Got my new bill already. It says I should be getting a refund but no mention of when or how. It hasn't been deducted from my bill, which has (of course) gone up since last year.


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## WouldBe (Mar 15, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> I don’t pay my bill by DD as I get credit card points for doing so. Maybe I should switch


Similar here. Just had a letter from council asking for bank details to be able to make payment when it's all being sorted out.


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## magneze (Mar 15, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Switch Together to lower your energy bill.
> 
> 
> Join the collective energy switch and see how much you can save on your energy bills. It is easy, free and without obligation.
> ...


Thanks for this, have registered. Nearly 18k now..


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## not a trot (Mar 15, 2022)

NoXion said:


> That billing structure. Are you saying that you pay your entire year's worth of council tax in one go? Or is that your monthly figure?
> 
> I don't think I could afford to pay annually. Mine comes in monthly. Apparently I paid about £15 last month. That seems a little... low?


£190 per month over 10 months.


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 15, 2022)

NoXion said:


> That billing structure. Are you saying that you pay your entire year's worth of council tax in one go? Or is that your monthly figure?
> 
> I don't think I could afford to pay annually. Mine comes in monthly. Apparently I paid about £15 last month. That seems a little... low?




Mine send me the years total then bill by month


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## contadino (Mar 15, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> I don’t pay my bill by DD as I get credit card points for doing so. Maybe I should switch


I got told that the £150 rebate is conditional on paying by direct debit. So I'll be cancelling my mandate as soon as I've received the rebate.


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## cybershot (Mar 15, 2022)

contadino said:


> I got told that the £150 rebate is conditional on paying by direct debit. So I'll be cancelling my mandate as soon as I've received the rebate.


Not conditional, you'll get a cheque or something but it will take longer to process.


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## Elpenor (Mar 15, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Not conditional, you'll get a cheque or something but it will take longer to process.


My bill said they’d write to me about it. I’m moving this year - don’t suppose I can get 2 rebates


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## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2022)

Total lack of resistance to this is puzzling. No talk on non payment,  partial payment, community resistance to people getting cut off.

Just moaning.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Mar 15, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Total lack of resistance to this is puzzling. No talk on non payment,  partial payment, community resistance to people getting cut off.
> 
> Just moaning.


I'm assuming more will happen when reality hits.


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## JoeyBoy (Mar 16, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Total lack of resistance to this is puzzling. No talk on non payment,  partial payment, community resistance to people getting cut off.
> 
> Just moaning.


I'm on a pre-payment meter so I have a choice between sitting in the dark because I'm broke or sitting in the dark because I'm resisting capitalism.


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## existentialist (Mar 16, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> I'm on a pre-payment meter so I have a choice between sitting in the dark because I'm broke or sitting in the dark because I'm resisting capitalism.


Resist capitalism!  

I have been practising doing without heating. With my lights on, and the computers running, my baseline consumption is ~400W. With two heaters on, it's 5,400W.

My flat is generally at about 13C when I get up. Without any heating, it usually creeps up to 15C when the day gets going. That feels bloody cold, but I'm getting used to it. Though I have to put some heating on if I get visitors, otherwise they tend to keep their coats on.

Next task is to look at whether I can reduce the middle-of-the-night consumption from the immersion heater.

The graph always looks interesting when I have a shower, and suddenly it's something like 10kW, but I am happy that it only lasts 10 minutes and doesn't make a huge difference to the costs.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 16, 2022)

My late Father had an extra circuit for night storage heaters, and used to plug the immersion into the same circuit, as the p/kWh on that overnight tariff used to be at a discounted rate.

[ah. ... I remember, it was "Economy 7" - you got approximately 7 hours use overnight on a special meter, IIRC. It was a cheap rate to take up base load generation that would otherwise be unused. The logic being that the then coal-fired base load power stations couldn't be switched on & off quickly, so it was better to sell the power cheaply and have the capacity ready and waiting for the morning peak in demand ...]


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## colacubes (Mar 16, 2022)

colacubes said:


> Combined gas and electric was £111 now £163.


Scrap that - just got a new email. Now £242


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## High Voltage (Mar 17, 2022)

existentialist said:


> . . . I have been practising doing without heating. With my lights on, and the computers running, my baseline consumption is ~400W. With two heaters on, it's 5,400W . . .


I'm assuming that the "baseline consumption" you give here is per hour? I'd really struggle to see how it would be for a 24hr period

IF it is per hour then that's not great tbh - looking at the spread sheet I've kept since the beginning of the month and simply taking our 24 hr consumption and dividing that by 24 I would estimate that our baseline consumption PER HOUR is around 350W and that's with occasional use of dishwasher (every other(?) day, maybe every third day and the washer / drier (I just use the washer part where as Mrs Voltz dries as well)

BUT if that's for a 24hr period I'd be simply staggered - out fridge freezer uses more than twice that in a 24hr period


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## NoXion (Mar 17, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I'm assuming that the "baseline consumption" you give here is per hour? I'd really struggle to see how it would be for a 24hr period
> 
> IF it is per hour then that's not great tbh - looking at the spread sheet I've kept since the beginning of the month and simply taking our 24 hr consumption and dividing that by 24 I would estimate that our baseline consumption PER HOUR is around 350W and that's with occasional use of dishwasher (every other(?) day, maybe every third day and the washer / drier (I just use the washer part where as Mrs Voltz dries as well)
> 
> BUT if that's for a 24hr period I'd be simply staggered - out fridge freezer uses more than twice that in a 24hr period



I think existentialist is talking about power draw, not energy. If you were measuring how much energy you used over 24 hours, the unit to use would be kWh, surely?


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## High Voltage (Mar 17, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I think existentialist is talking about power draw, not energy. If you were measuring how much energy you used over 24 hours, the unit to use would be kWh, surely?


So is the base line usage .4KWh rising to 5.4KWh with the electric heaters on then? which would make sense with 2 electric heaters on

This is a genuine question, I'm NOT an electrician, merely someone wanting to get a handle our power consumption


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## existentialist (Mar 17, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I'm assuming that the "baseline consumption" you give here is per hour? I'd really struggle to see how it would be for a 24hr period
> 
> IF it is per hour then that's not great tbh - looking at the spread sheet I've kept since the beginning of the month and simply taking our 24 hr consumption and dividing that by 24 I would estimate that our baseline consumption PER HOUR is around 350W and that's with occasional use of dishwasher (every other(?) day, maybe every third day and the washer / drier (I just use the washer part where as Mrs Voltz dries as well)
> 
> BUT if that's for a 24hr period I'd be simply staggered - out fridge freezer uses more than twice that in a 24hr period


Yep, as noxion says, that number is just the instantaneous power usage. I'm doing a bit of scripting to get a better picture of daily usage, costs...


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## High Voltage (Mar 17, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Yep, as noxion says, that number is just the instantaneous power usage. I'm doing a bit of scripting to get a better picture of daily usage, costs...


But if you use, say, 400watts for an hour, as you would do with your background usage, then that's .4KWh . . . isn't it? as a "working average, smoothing out peaks and troughs etc


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## High Voltage (Mar 17, 2022)

Honestly, I'm not looking for a row over this, it's just how I "understand" stuff . . . more than happy to be set right as well


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## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2022)

I've been homeless in the past so have a penchant for watching urban survival/hobo tricks style videos. Most of it is too US centric to be of use but the idea of using teacandles to heat up a terracotta pot till it pumps out heat. Might have to give it a go:






looks a bit shonky though, what do we think about fire risk/safety issues?


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## existentialist (Mar 17, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> But if you use, say, 400watts for an hour, as you would do with your background usage, then that's .4KWh . . . isn't it? as a "working average, smoothing out peaks and troughs etc


Yep, that's right - 0.4kWh. Which seems about right - that accounts for two computers and monitors, and quite a lot of lights (LED, natch). This is a usage graph for the last 24 hours:


(overnight consumption is usually lower, as I put the computers to sleep. The regular spikes are a heater in the office/bedroom, with the big one at about 0300 being the immersion heater coming on - and a little topup just before 6, presumably on the thermostat. That massive spike at 1000 is me having a shower, and the washing machine is running, which probably explains the slightly complicated line subsequent to that).


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## High Voltage (Mar 17, 2022)

DotCommunist said:


> . . . what do we think about fire risk/safety issues?


Well, if it were, say dessiato doing this I'd have one answer, but for you, Dottie, you'd be fine


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## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2022)

DotCommunist said:


> I've been homeless in the past so have a penchant for watching urban survival/hobo tricks style videos. Most of it is too US centric to be of use but the idea of using teacandles to heat up a terracotta pot till it pumps out heat. Might have to give it a go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Deluxe version here


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## existentialist (Mar 17, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Deluxe version here



Tealights are going to be a bloody expensive way of heating anything, though... 

ETA: calculations...

From this (on quora, so I won't bother linking), we determine that a single tealight can deliver a total or about 34W.


> Looking at Amazon, I see that tea candles are a wax cylinder about 1.5 inches in diameter and * 0.5 inches tall. Volume of a cylinder is pi * r**2 * h = 0.883 cubic inches or 14.45 cm**3. The density of paraffin wax is 0.9 g/cm**3, so we're looking at 13.03 grams of wax. The energy content of paraffin is about 42 kJ/g, so we're looking at 547kJ. There are 0.277 watt-hours per kJ, so we've got about 152 watt hours.





> If you're looking for the power, the amazon tea candles claim 4-5 hours, so 152 watt hours / 4.5 hours or about 33.8 watts on average. It would take just over 42 tea candles to match the thermal output of a 1440 watt space heater (12A at 120V).


It would thus take 1000/34, or roughly 30 tealights, to provide 1 kW of power. Amazon sell tealights at 100 for £1.99, so that's going to be 60p worth of tealights to provide a unit of electricity - or about twice what my new unit rate will be after March 31st.

ETA: I just weighed 10 tealights (100/£1 from IKEA), and they average at around 8.4g. So those calculations are a bit optimistic - we might expect the total output for each to be 88W over 4.5 hours, = 19.5W. So we'd need 51 of those tealights per unit of electricity...

Tealights do seem to have shrunk dramatically in the last 10-15 years.


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## dessiato (Mar 17, 2022)

DotCommunist said:


> I've been homeless in the past so have a penchant for watching urban survival/hobo tricks style videos. Most of it is too US centric to be of use but the idea of using teacandles to heat up a terracotta pot till it pumps out heat. Might have to give it a go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it’s fairly safe because the candles are under the pot. When I’ve done it I’ve not plugged the drainage hole. This allows an air flow. There’s a surprising amount of heat in those candles.


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 17, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Tealights are going to be a bloody expensive way of heating anything, though...



Like a quid a pack from Tiger I think


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## dessiato (Mar 17, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Deluxe version here



Lucky he didn’t drill his fingers.


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## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2022)

dessiato said:


> Lucky he didn’t drill his fingers.


there's a youtube video of the one that DotCommunist  put up in which the blokes them nail seems to have had something like that


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## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2022)

yeah tealights is 20 packs to the pound from your usual sites.


Artaxerxes said:


> Like a quid a pack from Tiger I think


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## existentialist (Mar 17, 2022)

DotCommunist said:


> yeah tealights is 20 packs to the pound from your usual sites.


Ah well, at that price they might be competitive! I'd order loads in, though, because they're essentially petrochemical-based, and oil price rises are going to feed through sooner or later


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## emanymton (Mar 17, 2022)

dessiato said:


> I think it’s fairly safe because the candles are under the pot. When I’ve done it I’ve not plugged the drainage hole. This allows an air flow. There’s a surprising amount of heat in those candles.


Well if you say it's safe...


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## StoneRoad (Mar 17, 2022)

Actually, that pot & tea-lights looks like an idea ... but with added citronella to deter insects ...

Might try that in our undertree conversation area ...
If I do, I'll report back.


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## contadino (Mar 17, 2022)

emanymton said:


> Well if you say it's safe...


It's fairly safe. Gardeners have been doing it since before WW2 to warm greenhouses.


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## Hollis (Mar 17, 2022)

My electricity and gas bill dd has just been put up from £42 to £138 a month.

However, based on the last few weeks of not having the gas heating on at all... my monthly spend is about £30 on electricity and £15 on gas..

So I guess I'll have to wait till they adjust again..


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## wemakeyousoundb (Mar 19, 2022)

My electricity direct debit has been upped from £22 to £37 a month :[
Waiting for news about the heating/hot water to be forthcoming.


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## High Voltage (Mar 19, 2022)

Hollis said:


> My electricity and gas bill dd has just been put up from £42 to £138 a month.
> 
> However, based on the last few weeks of not having the gas heating on at all... my monthly spend is about £30 on electricity and £15 on gas..
> 
> So I guess I'll have to wait till they adjust again..


Y'see ^^^^ this is what I don't get, not disputing the figures one second mind, I just don't "get" how little power you're using compared to how much power we're using

If you're using £30 / month of electricity and let's say your KWh price is (finger in the air) 25p / KWh then that's "about" 120KWh / month so 1,440 KWh annually

HOW??

So far, this month, our LOWEST daily figure has been 6.2KWh and that's basically, background usage. NO hot water heating, no dishwasher, no washer/dryer, no underfloor heating, no oven usage. The fridge freezer uses 1KWh / day, a shower "may" use 1KWh, kettle/toaster used during the day .5KWh

There's nothing in the house that I can identify that uses "lots" of electricity and the other things, like lighting, simply can't use that amount of electricity in a 24 hour period. What am I missing???


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## WouldBe (Mar 19, 2022)

Grow lamps? 

Are you powering next door as well? When I rewired the attic bedroom there was a cable headed off towards next doors loft conversion.


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## High Voltage (Mar 19, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> . . . Are you powering next door as well? . . .


Nope

Right at the very beginning I switched EVERY THING off at the consumer box and monitored the consumption for 15 minutes and nothing was used at all. Also, it's a detached cottage. But I had given it serious consideration as a possible . . . but, no.


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## gentlegreen (Mar 19, 2022)

My daily summer usage has always been about 8 units for years and it's just me, my very slow PC, cooking, lighting - hot water only for an occasional bath ... I only recently added a small, but inefficient fridge.


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## High Voltage (Mar 19, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> My daily summer usage has always been about 8 units for years and it's just me, my very slow PC, cooking, lighting - hot water only for an occasional bath ... I only recently added a small, but inefficient fridge.



WHAT!!!

8KWh per day / week / month??


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## gentlegreen (Mar 19, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> WHAT!!!
> 
> 8KWh per day / week / month??


8 per day - always seemed to be that for years even when I was working and didn't even have breakfast at home ...

I suppose I ought to work out what I spend it on.
One cup of coffee, toast, single hotplate for up to an hour ...

I've used 3597 units in the past year - including heating - avg 9.85 including a 1kw fan heater

Winter months 1326 units over 107 days = 12.4 per day

my lighting is usually 5 watts, but I have a bad habit of wasting maybe 10 watts elsewhere ...


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## High Voltage (Mar 19, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> 8 per day - always seemed to be that for years even when I was working and didn't even have breakfast at home ...
> 
> I suppose I ought to work out what I spend it on.
> One cup of coffee, toast, single hotplate for up to an hour ...
> ...


And then you compare Hollis usage not 10 posts above this one and he's using HALF of what you're using. OK he's using gas for some "stuff" but  . . . HALF!!111!1

Can you, honestly, see a way of reducing your energy consumption by 50% because I sure as shit can't and I don't feel that we are profligate in our energy usage


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## gentlegreen (Mar 19, 2022)

Annoyingly I bought an appliance power use thing and it packed up almost immediately so I never replaced it.
I have weird spending habits so electricity never seemed an area where I could make a difference ...


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## High Voltage (Mar 19, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Annoyingly I bought an appliance power use thing and it packed up almost immediately so I never replaced it.
> I have weird spending habits so electricity never seemed an area where I could make a difference ...


As I've mentioned previously I use an OWL system to get my "readings". It's an old system, the newer ones stream data so you can create, I think, a usage graph. I can do this off my system, but I'd have to take the readings and that would get "old" quite quickly

I've also got a couple of plug in readers that tell me what's being used through a particular plug and I'm going round the house to try and find the magic "something" but so far, to no avail

I would say that our average daily usage for this month is 8KWh / day, so basically what you're using and there's 2 of us, with all the usual kitchen white goods being used a bit more sparingly


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 20, 2022)




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## Leafster (Mar 21, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Y'see ^^^^ this is what I don't get, not disputing the figures one second mind, I just don't "get" how little power you're using compared to how much power we're using
> 
> If you're using £30 / month of electricity and let's say your KWh price is (finger in the air) 25p / KWh then that's "about" 120KWh / month so 1,440 KWh annually
> 
> ...


6.2Kwh does seem high if it's just background usage. 

I average around 7Kwh per day *all in*. I have gas CH and a gas hob but everything else is electric. 

Looking at what's on all the time, it's the fridge, freezer and the mini-server in the loft (for the smart house functions), the smoke, heat and movement sensors, the router and a small controller unit for the CCTV. This time of the year I have a seed propagator with heating and that's also on all the time.  

There's stuff on stand-by like the TV and Blu-ray player (they don't have an on/off switches  ), the printer, Sonos speakers/AMP in the lounge, study, kitchen and bedroom, an amazon device in the kitchen and the cordless phone bases.

During the day I have the PC on and listen to music/radio via the Sonos speakers as I work from home. The TV will probably be on at some point in the evening. 

I use the electric oven probably 3 or 4 days a week and I have a combination microwave which probably gets used more frequently but for less time. 

I boil the kettle multiple times throughout the day and there are some other kitchen gadgets that get used occasionally like a deep fat fryer or food processor.

The dishwasher gets used every other day and the washing machine maybe once or twice a week.

For about six months of the year the heating may be on at some point during the day so the pump pushing water around the radiators will be working. 

If I'm drying clothes in the winter then I have a dehumidifier which I may use but often don't bother. 

There are extractor fans in the kitchen and bathroom which come on if the humidity reaches a set level and they can be over-ridden to remove "unwanted smells". 

I charge up the phone, tablet, laptop, camera batteries and other rechargeable batteries when they need it. 

Apart from that, it's the lawnmower once a week for maybe 9 months of the year and a water feature in the garden.  

I have a Dyson Hot/Cool thing which gets used from time to time. It uses a lot to heat but not so much to cool.

Then it's just lights inside and out - all of them with one exception are LEDs.


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## Ranbay (Mar 21, 2022)

Mines fixed till sept 2022 I'm so lucky.... for now.


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## cybershot (Mar 21, 2022)

I live on my own. I use about 3.75kWh of electric per day according to readings from last 28 days. 2 bed semi detached. Usual stuff on standby and periodic use of oven (3-5 times a week time obv vary)/washing machine 2 to 3 times a week on an eco setting that is done and dusted in 59 mins. and slim dish washer used about once a week on an eco cycle that takes almost 4 hours! )

Might go up a bit in summer maybe for lawn mower (takes less than an hour to do) and when I use the jet wash.


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## Leafster (Mar 21, 2022)

cybershot said:


> I live on my own. I use about 3.75kWh of electric per day according to readings from last 28 days. 2 bed semi detached. Usual stuff on standby and periodic use of oven (3-5 times a week time obv vary)/washing machine 2 to 3 times a week on an eco setting that is done and dusted in 59 mins. and slim dish washer used about once a week on an eco cycle that takes almost 4 hours! )
> 
> Might go up a bit in summer maybe for lawn mower (takes less than an hour to do) and when I use the jet wash.


I try to use the eco cycle on the dishwasher too. Mine takes 3 1/4 hours but there's also a "vario speed" button which apparently tells the dishwasher to work out how dirty the stuff is and can reduce the time down to about 2 1/2 hours.


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## muscovyduck (Mar 21, 2022)

I managed to sort my bill out and now I'm just getting hammered by the standing charge. As in like 75% of the bill is me paying for the fact I might turn something on. Ffs


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## BigTom (Mar 21, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I try to use the eco cycle on the dishwasher too. Mine takes 3 1/4 hours but there's also a "vario speed" button which apparently tells the dishwasher to work out how dirty the stuff is and can reduce the time down to about 2 1/2 hours.


These work by having an optical sensor on the water outflow and doing cycles until the water is clean enough for the optical sensor to not get disrupted.

It's a clever thing.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 21, 2022)

I've had to chase up OVO today, they seem to still be struggling with getting those clowns at SSE to sort out the over charging issue OVO inherited when I was transferred over. 

ATM my electricity account is showing a estimated meter reading of 17412 compared to the actual reading of 14114, some 3298kWh more than it should be, which at £0.2053kWh equals an overcharge of £677. 

My joint electricity/gas account balance is currently showing -£108, and an estimate that I'll be at -£639 in 12 months at the new rates, so that £677 credit plus a reduction in my estimated usage over the coming 12 months should result in my DD being reduced even further than they have already done since I first complained.


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## WouldBe (Mar 21, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I try to use the eco cycle on the dishwasher too. Mine takes 3 1/4 hours but there's also a "vario speed" button which apparently tells the dishwasher to work out how dirty the stuff is and can reduce the time down to about 2 1/2 hours.


I use mine on a quick wash. Takes 30 ish mins.


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 21, 2022)

I use a sink and cold water


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## two sheds (Mar 21, 2022)

If the rayburn isn't on I boil the electric kettle with enough for a large mug for washing and a smallish bowl for rinsing. 

Sometimes when there's loads to do I have to fill them twice


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## StoneRoad (Mar 21, 2022)

As with using the dishwasher on shorter cycles, I've taken to doing a lot of my laundry on the '30minutes' setting and being more economical with the powder, especially if there's only a half load.
Every few washes I give the towels & sheets their full "official" cycle. 

Looking forward to some decent weather, so I can do most of the drying on the line.


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## Saunders (Mar 21, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> I use a sink and cold water


Luxury


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## Saunders (Mar 21, 2022)

Leafster said:


> 6.2Kwh does seem high if it's just background usage.
> 
> I average around 7Kwh per day *all in*. I have gas CH and a gas hob but everything else is electric.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that comprehensive list, it’s really helpful. You don’t mention hot water. My usage is similar to High Voltage and I’m struggling to find how to reduce it. Apart from the switched spur that I’d left on and turned out to be an electric underfloor heating system in the conservatory that I’d been running for a couple of months. At least I now know all that heat wasn’t just solar gain because it was very warm in early March and I was fearing it would be unusable in the warmer months. Coupla hundred pounds wasted but a lesson learned. Tralala. (I’m in a new to me house and finding out how it works)


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## WouldBe (Mar 21, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> As with using the dishwasher on shorter cycles, I've taken to doing a lot of my laundry on the '30minutes' setting and being more economical with the powder, especially if there's only a half load.
> Every few washes I give the towels & sheets their full "official" cycle.
> 
> Looking forward to some decent weather, so I can do most of the drying on the line.


I do my washing on a quick wash but for some strange reason the washer doesn't do a spin before the rinse cycle, it just adds more water. So I end up having to do extra rinse cycles to get all the soap out.


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## MrCurry (Mar 22, 2022)

I know smart meters have a bad reputation, but since we got one I can access via my supplier’s website hourly consumption data in KWh for each day of the month, which does help track down where the power goes.  For example if you know you had the oven on for an hour, or the tumbledryer, etc then by comparing the consumption with the previous day you can see exactly how much was used. 

For lowering overall consumption my top tip is to kill the standby power.  Everyone thinks first of the high power devices like washing machine, fridge, etc.. but it’s those things which sit there 24/7 using a small amount which tick the meter higher that you can do something about.  The TV and all those little set top boxes with their LEDs on all night and all day are using more than you think even when you don’t use them. I got an “EON powerdown” for £6.99 from Amazon years ago which lowers the standby consumption to only 0.5W - little things like this do help.


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## WouldBe (Mar 22, 2022)

Or you could just turn them off at the wall when not in use.


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## existentialist (Mar 22, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Or you could just turn them off at the wall when not in use.


Where's the fun in that?


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## MrCurry (Mar 22, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Or you could just turn them off at the wall when not in use.


The trouble is people don’t do that, because it requires effort and for it to be remembered. the point of the power saver devices is that once set up they are convenient to use, so they actually deliver a useful power saving, as opposed to the theoretical power saving you get if you can remember/ be bothered to switch on and off at the wall all the time.


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## WouldBe (Mar 22, 2022)

Not exactly hard to switch them off. As for remembering I suffer from memory loss and can manage it.


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## two sheds (Mar 22, 2022)

remember what?


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## High Voltage (Mar 22, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> I know smart meters have a bad reputation, but since we got one I can access via my supplier’s website hourly consumption data in KWh for each day of the month, which does help track down where the power goes.  For example if you know you had the oven on for an hour, or the tumbledryer, etc then by comparing the consumption with the previous day you can see exactly how much was used.
> View attachment 315333
> For lowering overall consumption my top tip is to kill the standby power.  Everyone thinks first of the high power devices like washing machine, fridge, etc.. but it’s those things which sit there 24/7 using a small amount which tick the meter higher that you can do something about.  The TV and all those little set top boxes with their LEDs on all night and all day are using more than you think even when you don’t use them. I got an “EON powerdown” for £6.99 from Amazon years ago which lowers the standby consumption to only 0.5W - little things like this do help.


On one plug I've got a 10 gang adaptor, running:-

phone base unit / charging point (land line)
2 "boxes" that are needed for the fibreoptic broadband
Sonos speaker
NAS box
I've put one of my measuring plugs on it and it's been checking the power used for the last 2hr 30min and power used is 0.0053KWh, so in a day, maybe that entire plug socket will use 0.060KWh, so an estimated annual consumption of 21.9KWh

Now, each one of those is either being used OR is on standby, so I can switch off the Sonos speaker and the NAS box, the others will have to stay on

I'll re-check the reading tomorrow, for a 24 hr reading and then I'll switch the 2 units off that I can switch off


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## Ranbay (Mar 22, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> The trouble is people don’t do that, because it requires effort and for it to be remembered. the point of the power saver devices is that once set up they are convenient to use, so they actually deliver a useful power saving, as opposed to the theoretical power saving you get if you can remember/ be bothered to switch on and off at the wall all the time.




I Use a Tapo plug on my boiler and then can turn it on and off from my phone. 



			https://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-LINK-Tapo-Wireless-Required-P100/dp/B07Z942YWS/ref=asc_df_B07Z942YWS/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=394317030617&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9953460103267884720&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007413&hvtargid=pla-847766584784&psc=1&th=1&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=80755971054&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=394317030617&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9953460103267884720&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007413&hvtargid=pla-847766584784
		


when i wake in the morning, i turn the heating on from bed, and then refuse to get out till its warm.

saves me loads.


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## Chz (Mar 22, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> I know smart meters have a bad reputation, but since we got one I can access via my supplier’s website hourly consumption data in KWh for each day of the month, which does help track down where the power goes.  For example if you know you had the oven on for an hour, or the tumbledryer, etc then by comparing the consumption with the previous day you can see exactly how much was used.
> View attachment 315333
> For lowering overall consumption my top tip is to kill the standby power.  Everyone thinks first of the high power devices like washing machine, fridge, etc.. but it’s those things which sit there 24/7 using a small amount which tick the meter higher that you can do something about.  The TV and all those little set top boxes with their LEDs on all night and all day are using more than you think even when you don’t use them. I got an “EON powerdown” for £6.99 from Amazon years ago which lowers the standby consumption to only 0.5W - little things like this do help.


By EU law (and I doubt we get anything different here), standby mode for anything made since 2013 must be 0.5W. 
The baseline of the house here - which includes router and NAS and appliances when not actually running but plugged in - is under 100W. There's probably not a lot I can cut out of that without turning off things that are inconvenient to switch on and off (like the router and the NAS). The use for the year ends up at 3900kWh.


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## High Voltage (Mar 22, 2022)

Chz said:


> By EU law (and I doubt we get anything different here), standby mode for anything made since 2013 must be 0.5W.
> The baseline of the house here - which includes router and NAS and appliances when not actually running but plugged in - is under 100W. There's probably not a lot I can cut out of that without turning off things that are inconvenient to switch on and off (like the router and the NAS). The use for the year ends up at 3900kWh.



HOW??//?/? - again, not disputing this but 100W, so a daily "background" consumption of 2.4KWh

I'm currently looking at switching off the cats drinking fountains / cats feeding stations and they don't use 10w in a 24hr period - there's almost nothing I can turn off and my daily BACKGROUND number is 6KWh daily (or at least in the region of)


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## High Voltage (Mar 22, 2022)

Yunno, short of going plug by plug / room by room comparison with you I just don't know where the power is being used, I really don't


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## oryx (Mar 22, 2022)

ours is going up from £135 pcm to £210


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## Saunders (Mar 22, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Yunno, short of going plug by plug / room by room comparison with you I just don't know where the power is being used, I really don't


Same here. I haven’t given it proper rigorous thought and systematic checking everything as am a bit distracted with other stuff just now but it’s just me and the dog. I don’t watch telly, do laundry once a week (if that) oil fired heating and hot water, don’t cook much as it’s just me and him. Am baffled.


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## Chz (Mar 22, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> HOW??//?/? - again, not disputing this but 100W, so a daily "background" consumption of 2.4KWh
> 
> I'm currently looking at switching off the cats drinking fountains / cats feeding stations and they don't use 10w in a 24hr period - there's almost nothing I can turn off and my daily BACKGROUND number is 6KWh daily (or at least in the region of)


Router and NAS are about 10-15W each, cordless phones I've measured at 5W a piece sitting there charging infinitely. The smart meter itself isn't a standby device and draws a few watts, the boiler uses a few as it's wireless. There's an air filter in the asthmatic child's room that, while it's a pretty low-power device, runs 24/7. It adds up.

Edit: Maybe I misunderstood, I thought you were saying it was _high._ When I say "background", I mean when the compressors on the fridge and freezer are off, the boiler isn't running, etc. Basically when everything is in its lowest power mode that isn't off. The number I posted for our yearly consumption comes in around 10kWh/day.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 22, 2022)

oryx said:


> ours is going up from £135 pcm to £210



Sadly a 50% increase is about right.

Although you have started from a high amount, so that does look shocking*. 

*ETA - pun not intended.


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## High Voltage (Mar 22, 2022)

Chz said:


> Router and NAS are about 10-15W each, cordless phones I've measured at 5W a piece sitting there charging infinitely. The smart meter itself isn't a standby device and draws a few watts, the boiler uses a few as it's wireless. There's an air filter in the asthmatic child's room that, while it's a pretty low-power device, runs 24/7. It adds up.
> 
> Edit: Maybe I misunderstood, I thought you were saying it was _high._ When I say "background", I mean when the compressors on the fridge and freezer are off, the boiler isn't running, etc. Basically when everything is in its lowest power mode that isn't off. The number I posted for our yearly consumption comes in around 10kWh/day.


Not high usage at all, this is an amazingly low usage, I just can't get my head around how I could get down to 3 x this amount

As I posted above, my lowest daily usage is around 6KWh / day so 2000KWh / year where as your background usage appears to be less than 900KWh / year - so, OK not three times but certainly half what we're using, and that's just "stuff" what I can't really turn off - I'm now starting to go through individual plugs and measuring what's using what, but when you get a plug that's running 2 x cat feeds on timers and the meter isn't registering ANYTHING over a 5 day period, then those doo dahs can't be using that much electricity. I know it all adds up but I'm now getting down to ridiculously small power usage things


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 22, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> HOW??//?/? - again, not disputing this but 100W, so a daily "background" consumption of 2.4KWh
> 
> I'm currently looking at switching off the cats drinking fountains / cats feeding stations and they don't use 10w in a 24hr period - there's almost nothing I can turn off and my daily BACKGROUND number is 6KWh daily (or at least in the region of)



Have you considered changing your username to Low Voltage?


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## High Voltage (Mar 22, 2022)

And the horse you rode in on Tonto


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## High Voltage (Mar 22, 2022)




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## WouldBe (Mar 22, 2022)

Chz said:


> The number I posted for our yearly consumption comes in around 10kWh/day.


 mine is 5kWh a day. That's just me in the house all day long.


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## gentlegreen (Mar 22, 2022)

I have to say I'm somewhat intrigued now ..
Perhaps I'll order myself a new appliance tester.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 22, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> mine is 5kWh a day. That's just me in the house all day long.



Same here, that's my average daily usage, including cooking, washing machine, etc.

Although I have gas for heating & hot water, those without that option will tend to have much higher electric usage.


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## WouldBe (Mar 22, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Although I have gas for heating & hot water, those without that option will tend to have much higher electric usage.


True but Chz mentioned a boiler so I presumed gas not electric.


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## High Voltage (Mar 22, 2022)

As previously posted what kicked me off was my bulb protected usage of 5200KWh against an average for a 3 bed / person house (not sure which tbh) of 3200KWh and why the discrepancy 

I reckon I'm now down below average but there's only two of us in a two bed cottage so would be expecting mid-high 200 0' and so far I'm nowhere near that


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 22, 2022)

Oh, and my 5kWh a day is including running a dehumidifier down in my garage/work storage place, which switches on & off 24/7 as needed, which much add a fair bit to the total.


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## WouldBe (Mar 22, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> As previously posted what kicked me off was my bulb protected usage of 5200KWh against an average for a 3 bed / person house (not sure which tbh) of 3200KWh and why the discrepancy
> 
> I reckon I'm now down below average but there's only two of us in a two bed cottage so would be expecting mid-high 200 0' and so far I'm nowhere near that


Still seems a lot. Mine is 1800kWh per 13 months.

Might be better if you used your plug meter to monitor things over a longer time period as an hour may not give an accurate representation e.g. with a fridge/freezer it may only switch on towards the end of the hour so you don't get a true reading.


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## High Voltage (Mar 22, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Still seems a lot. Mine is 1800kWh per 13 months.
> 
> Might be better if you used your plug meter to monitor things over a longer time period as an hour may not give an accurate representation e.g. with a fridge/freezer it may only switch on towards the end of the hour so you don't get a true reading.


The fridge freezer uses 1KWh /day. 365KWh give or take per year, such ties in with the quoted figure from the Web site

All bulbs are now LEDs


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## WouldBe (Mar 22, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> The fridge freezer uses 1KWh /day. 365KWh give or take per year, such ties in with the quoted figure from the Web site
> 
> All bulbs are now LEDs


There must be something that's using all that power. Do you have anything that's hard wired in that you can't use the power meter on?


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## cybershot (Mar 22, 2022)

\


High Voltage said:


> The fridge freezer uses 1KWh /day. 365KWh give or take per year, such ties in with the quoted figure from the Web site
> 
> All bulbs are now LEDs


An A++ rated Fridge/Freezer would probably half that. Obviously the cost of a new one is counter acted by it would take X amount of days to even break even, but it's worth looking at old appliances if you want to be more energy efficient in the long term. Appliances: How much do yours cost to run?


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 22, 2022)

__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				






> Rishi Sunak is planning to set aside a large part of a windfall in UK public finances this year, risking a backlash from Tory MPs who want the chancellor to use all funds available to cushion the cost of living crisis hurting British families.
> The official forecasts in the Spring Statement will show the deficit is at least £20bn better than expected this year, but Sunak will use only some of the money to help households facing soaring gas, electricity, and fuel bills.
> Sunak will instead highlight the importance of “more resilient public finances” as he worries about a surge in the cost of servicing government debt instead of spending the entire windfall.
> He is set to say he will “stand by” families, with a cut in fuel tax expected to be part of new measures he will announce on Wednesday.





> His speech will focus on the theme of “security” as he offers Britain’s “unwavering” support to Ukraine amid a promise to continue supplying weapons and aid to the war-stricken country.
> Many Tory MPs are pushing for bolder fiscal action, including cutting taxes or reducing the impact of the planned 1.25 percentage point rise in national insurance contributions, which takes effect next month and is intended to raise £12bn for the NHS and social care. Some want Sunak to ditch the measure altogether, although a second choice would be to increase the threshold at which people pay NICs from £9,600 to the income tax threshold of £12,500.
> 
> Iain Duncan Smith, a former Conservative leader, said Sunak had “headroom” and should use the fiscal good news this year to pump money into the economy to avoid “stagflation” — when prices rise amid a recession.
> ...





> Robert Halfon, a longstanding campaigner against increases in fuel duty, said: “Boris and the chancellor should make it their defining domestic mission to use this windfall to cut the cost of living for workers — not just for this emergency situation but for the long term.”
> The Treasury is nervous about these demands and worries that higher inflation in 2022-23 and higher interest rates will raise the forecast cost of servicing debt by more than the extra tax revenues it will receive. However, forecasts for the 2024-25 financial year are set to show an improvement in borrowing because additional tax revenues will outweigh the higher cost of servicing debt.





> Sir Charlie Bean, a former member of the Office for Budget Responsibility’s forecasting team, nevertheless said he expected the chancellor to have significant “wriggle room” in the public finance forecasts to help households.
> Sunak is also expected to announce a shake-up of training in an attempt to raise the country’s skills levels and growth potential, including a review of the operation of the apprenticeship levy.





> He will argue that providing incentives to the private sector to carry out more training is part of a plan to create “a new culture of enterprise”, including a new regime of tax breaks to boost investment and innovation.
> Last month the chancellor said he feared the apprenticeship levy was not doing enough to “incentivise business to invest in the right kinds of training”. Most new measures will be introduced in his autumn Budget.
> Get alerts on Spring Statement when a new story is published


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 22, 2022)

I also want to say that while I do sympathise with soaring fuel prices this is what Petrol vs Bus vs Rail looks like over the last few decades.


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## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> There must be something that's using all that power. Do you have anything that's hard wired in that you can't use the power meter on?


At the beginning of the month I started looking into where the energy was being used. This highlighted two energy users that I'd not really considered. Both are now switched off, yes there is a reduction in energy usage but only down to the lowest daily figure of 6.2KWh for a 24 hour period. 

Pretty much all kitchen white goods are fairly new and are all a perceived quality brands so I've no intention of changing them any time soon. I did a back of a fag packet estimate and the payback on a reduced energy fridge freezer with electricity at 40p / KWh is something like 7 years

I'm just going to have to keep chipping away a bit here and a bit there, but obviously there'll be a point where I reach "that's it" and I'm just going to have to accept that whatever that amount is really is our best.


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## MrCurry (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> At the beginning of the month I started looking into where the energy was being used. This highlighted two energy users that I'd not really considered. Both are now switched off, yes there is a reduction in energy usage but only down to the lowest daily figure of 6.2KWh for a 24 hour period.
> 
> Pretty much all kitchen white goods are fairly new and are all a perceived quality brands so I've no intention of changing them any time soon. I did a back of a fag packet estimate and the payback on a reduced energy fridge freezer with electricity at 40p / KWh is something like 7 years
> 
> I'm just going to have to keep chipping away a bit here and a bit there, but obviously there'll be a point where I reach "that's it" and I'm just going to have to accept that whatever that amount is really is our best.


Is your electric meter one of the “smart” ones with an LCD showing the instantaneous consumption in W/KW?  If so you can switch off your circuits at the dist. Board one by one and see how that background consumption drops.  Maybe you‘ll find some of your power suckers.

I discovered an old doorbell transformer which was wired in and warm to the touch, which must’ve been using 5W or so continuously for years. It was right next to the doorbell chime unit so I’d previously assumed it was needed, but on closer investigation it seems the doorbell chime runs on a 9V battery and the transformer must’ve been used years ago with a previous doorbell.  

Another find was the big outdoor light on the front of my garage, which the year I moved here I left switched on 24/7 because it was on a manual switch on the front of the garage (no daylight sensor back then) and I didn’t want to go out there twice a day to switch it on and off. When I finally got up on a ladder to have a look I found it was a 125W Mercury vapor lamp   Swapped that for a 10W LED floodlamp then went back the next year and put a 5W one in, which is bright enough anyway.


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## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> Is your electric meter one of the “smart” ones with an LCD showing the instantaneous consumption in W/KW?  If so you can switch off your circuits at the dist. Board one by one and see how that background consumption drops.  Maybe you‘ll find some of your power suckers.
> 
> I discovered an old doorbell transformer which was wired in and warm to the touch, which must’ve been using 5W or so continuously for years. It was right next to the doorbell chime unit so I’d previously assumed it was needed, but on closer investigation it seems the doorbell chime runs on a 9V battery and the transformer must’ve been used years ago with a previous doorbell.
> 
> Another find was the big outdoor light on the front of my garage, which the year I moved here I left switched on 24/7 because it was on a manual switch on the front of the garage (no daylight sensor back then) and I didn’t want to go out there twice a day to switch it on and off. When I finally got up on a ladder to have a look I found it was a 125W Mercury vapor lamp   Swapped that for a 10W LED floodlamp then went back the next year and put a 5W one in, which is bright enough anyway.


We don't have a smart meter as such but I've got an owl meter which gives the same functionality. I've already gone down the switch everything off route incase we were paying for another houses usage (they're old houses so I wouldn't put anything as not being possible) but no

I am rapidly running out of things to measure, or change to lower power options, or switch off, yet still maintain an acceptable quality of living. We really are not profligate in our energy usage yet when there are people citing energy usage HALF of what we're using I just don't see how that's possible


----------



## MrCurry (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> We don't have a smart meter as such but I've got an owl meter which gives the same functionality. I've already gone down the switch everything off route incase we were paying for another houses usage (they're old houses so I wouldn't put anything as not being possible) but no
> 
> I am rapidly running out of things to measure, or change to lower power options, or switch off, yet still maintain an acceptable quality of living. We really are not profligate in our energy usage yet when there are people citing energy usage HALF of what we're using I just don't see how that's possible


Ok, but then with the meter and a progressive switch off test, you must be able to see how much each room is contributing to the overall consumption? And within a given room how much it goes down each time you switch off a socket, for example? 

If you can see that level of granularity then there are no remaining hidden power suckers, it’s just to decide what you can switch off, and if that’s nothing then yes you’re stuck with your current usage level.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 23, 2022)

We think we have problems...









						Mum-of-three sent gas and electricity bill for almost £2billion for two weeks
					

“I usually turn off the lights when we leave a room and make sure we are as eco-friendly as possible so I knew it couldn’t be right.”




					www.devonlive.com
				






> A mum-of-three said was sent a gas and electricity bill for almost £2billion - for two weeks' power use. Brenda McCossick got the bill from Shell Energy, which told her she owed £1.9billion.
> 
> Brenda, 50, is a police call handler and lives with her daughter, who is 15, The Sun reports. Her usual energy bills for her three-bedroom detached house are around £50 a month.
> 
> She said: "I knew the amount is going up given the rise of energy bills but I couldn’t believe it. It must be a record for the biggest energy bill ever.


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

Looks like I might have finally tracked down a bigger energy user that I'd've thought possible

I switched off the central heating and water heating and energy use has dropped from previous lowest reading 6.2KWh for the previous 24 hrs down to 4.9KWh for the same period of time . . . which would make sense if we had electric central heating but it's LPG, so explain THAT??

And that's with a manual 1hr "boost" for the hot water this morning, but, yunno, some quality of life

I'm going to leave everything switched off and see if this is on-going or this was a one off glitch


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Looks like I might have finally tracked down a bigger energy user that I'd've thought possible
> 
> I switched off the central heating and water heating and energy use has dropped from previous lowest reading 6.2KWh for the previous 24 hrs down to 4.9KWh for the same period of time . . . which would make sense if we had electric central heating but it's LPG, so explain THAT??
> 
> ...


Is the water heating from the boiler or an immersion heater?
Immersion heaters can use a lot of energy so could be that.
Even though your boiler is LPG there is still quite a few electric components like circuit board (although that doesn't use a lot), pumps can use around 120Wh and can be more than one in a system, 2/3 way valves shouldn't use too much but it can all add up.


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Is the water heating from the boiler or an immersion heater?
> Immersion heaters can use a lot of energy so could be that.
> Even though your boiler is LPG there is still quite a few electric components like circuit board (although that doesn't use a lot), pumps can use around 120Wh and can be more than one in a system, 2/3 way valves shouldn't use too much but it can all add up.


The water is now being heated by the boiler, but up til a few weeks ago the 3 way valve wasn't functioning so whilst the boiler was set to heat water is was actually heating the central heating, so the 3KW immersion heater was doing all of the heavy lifting. The immersion heater is now switched off and the valve has been replaced, so the only power usage I can see is, as you've mentioned, is the pump, the three way valve and any circuit boards in the boiler and the control panel

I'm sure that there's only one pump and I'll try and track that down to check what it is and try and get a power consumption figure for it


----------



## StoneRoad (Mar 23, 2022)

Yeah, I agree - it would be mainly the pump's consumption - all the control circuitry should have minimal draw.


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2022)

It's straight forward chez moi - electric hot water once a fortnight or less, small fan heater for heating - which makes it all the more peculiar ...

Time to deploy some technology ...


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

OK - dumb question time, can you get "lower energy" central heating pumps and would the energy saving be worth while

Looking at my tentative figures from yesterday the energy usage drop is "around" 1.5KW, from memory I think the central heating and hot water were on for, say, 8 hours spread throughout the day, so that would mean all elements of the central heating were using "about" 200w / hour - give or take

A quick Google would suggest that central heating pumps typically use "around" 60w / hour, yet WouldBe (post above) suggests maybe as high as 120w / hour wouldn't be unusual

Don't get me wrong, if my new "daily usage" of 4.9KWh is duplicable, certainly in the spring / summer / autumn months I'll be delighted and that'll give me a really big buffer for the winters bills where energy usage will be higher, but I wasn't seeing any significant drop in electric usage in the warmer seasons, which was almost certainly down to the 3 way valve not functioning and the emersion being on all year round, and other things just being left on 'cause "they don't use that much do they" - well, yes, actually, turns out they fucking well did


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> It's straight forward chez moi - electric hot water once a fortnight or less, small fan heater for heating - which makes it all the more peculiar ...
> 
> Time to deploy some technology ...
> 
> View attachment 315513


Hey gentlegreen - the multi-meter you've got there, does that cable clamp enable you to check current flow through a wire?

Reason I'm asking is, I've got a couple of these plug in readers and they're great for stuff which plugs in, but for say, an electric oven which doesn't plug in but I have access to the power cable would this let me know an accumulative usage? or just what's being used immediately?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Hey gentlegreen - the multi-meter you've got there, does that cable clamp enable you to check current flow through a wire?
> 
> Reason I'm asking is, I've got a couple of these plug in readers and they're great for stuff which plugs in, but for say, an electric oven which doesn't plug in but I have access to the power cable would this let me know an accumulative usage? or just what's being used immediately?


It's not as easy as that - you need to get the CT round a single conductor, not the whole cable...


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

existentialist said:


> It's not as easy as that - you need to get the CT round a single conductor, not the whole cable...


I do not understand, there's a single power cable going to the oven and nothing else, won't that work?


----------



## prunus (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Looks like I might have finally tracked down a bigger energy user that I'd've thought possible
> 
> I switched off the central heating and water heating and energy use has dropped from previous lowest reading 6.2KWh for the previous 24 hrs down to 4.9KWh for the same period of time . . . which would make sense if we had electric central heating but it's LPG, so explain THAT??
> 
> ...



Sounds like it would be the pump - typically run at about 100W so 1.3kWh is about 13 hours of runtime - less if your pump is more powerful - can you get a model number off it, we can look it up?

Though if the manual boost was from cold via an immersion heater that could be up to about 3 kWh in itself...  was the water already somewhat warm?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I do not understand, there's a single power cable going to the oven and nothing else, won't that work?


That cable has 3 conductors in it - if the CT goes around both the live and neutral, they cancel each other out, so you need to be able to separate the live cable and just get the CT round that. You only need a few inches of it, but it would probably mean stripping the outer insulation, which isn't exactly "code". You're better off measuring overall consumption, and then just calculating the difference when the oven is on...


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

prunus said:


> Sounds like it would be the pump - typically run at about 100W so 1.3kWh is about 13 hours of runtime - less if your pump is more powerful - can you get a model number off it, we can look it up?
> 
> Though if the manual boost was from cold via an immersion heater that could be up to about 3 kWh in itself...  was the water already somewhat warm?


No, the immersion heater element is switched off, so the LPG boiler is now doing what it's being told to do, ie heating water in this case, so we got a 1hr boost to the hot water tank by LPG


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

existentialist said:


> That cable has 3 conductors in it - if the CT goes around both the live and neutral, they cancel each other out, so you need to be able to separate the live cable and just get the CT round that. You only need a few inches of it, but it would probably mean stripping the outer insulation, which isn't exactly "code". You're better off measuring overall consumption, and then just calculating the difference when the oven is on...


So how does the OWL meter work then?

That's got a clamp that goes round the mains cable as it comes into the house and reads the amount of "electric" that is flowing through the cable. Is this £60 doodah doing something that a £150 meter (yeah, I know that aren't that price, but I know me) can't do?

Again, genuine question, this is why I don't like electricity as a "thing"


----------



## prunus (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> No, the immersion heater element is switched off, so the LPG boiler is now doing what it's being told to do, ie heating water in this case, so we got a 1hr boost to the hot water tank by LPG



Ah sorry misunderstood.  In that case a 1.3kWh daily use for a central heating pump sounds about right, ballpark.


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> So how does the OWL meter work then?
> 
> That's got a clamp that goes round the mains cable as it comes into the house and reads the amount of "electric" that is flowing through the cable. Is this £60 doodah doing something that a £150 meter (yeah, I know that aren't that price, but I know me) can't do?
> 
> Again, genuine question, this is why I don't like electricity as a "thing"


I wonder how that works then ..
Are you sure it isn't just around one of the phases ?
I have a couple of cheap contactless live wire detectors that don't work if the live wire is being screened by the earth / neutral.

That clamp meter happens to have one built in that's so sensitive it's almost unusable ...

I'll wire that ammeter into an extension cable - though it's no good for anything over 1kw ...


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

prunus said:


> Ah sorry misunderstood.  In that case a 1.3kWh daily use for a central heating pump sounds about right, ballpark.


Really, well I'll go to the foot of our stairs


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Really, well I'll go to the foot of our stairs



I would too, but I live in a bungalow.


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I wonder how that works then ..
> Are you sure it isn't just around one of the phases ?
> I have a couple of cheap contactless live wire detectors that don't work if the live wire is being screened by the earth / neutral.
> 
> That clamp meter happens to have one built in that's so sensitive it's almost unusable ...





existentialist said:


> That cable has 3 conductors in it - if the CT goes around both the live and neutral, they cancel each other out, so you need to be able to separate the live cable and just get the CT round that. You only need a few inches of it, but it would probably mean stripping the outer insulation, which isn't exactly "code". You're better off measuring overall consumption, and then just calculating the difference when the oven is on...


Ahhhh!! just checked, totally my fault, I fitted this YEARS ago and forgot that the OWL clamp just goes around the +ve cable coming in

It's all clear now

Where's my Stanley knife??

I'll soon have a foot or two of that insulation off the cooker lead


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## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

What could possibly go wrong


----------



## prunus (Mar 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I wonder how that works then ..
> Are you sure it isn't just around one of the phases ?
> I have a couple of cheap contactless live wire detectors that don't work if the live wire is being screened by the earth / neutral.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure it clamps onto the incoming live only (the big fat red wire coming out of the meter).


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> What could possibly go wrong



Ask dessiato!


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## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2022)

I definitely need to find where all my energy is going, but 8 units a day is only an average of 333 watts...


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## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

Am I now right in thinking that there's no actual way of measuring how much a "thing" uses if it isn't a simply "plug in" thing

Say for example, cooker or any other "hard wired" kitchen device


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## prunus (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Ahhhh!! just checked, totally my fault, I fitted this YEARS ago and forgot that the OWL clamp just goes around the +ve cable coming in
> 
> It's all clear now
> 
> ...



If your cooker is connected via a plug then you can use a plug-in in line power consumption meter.  I've got one somewhere  - they're not expensive.

e2a: I presume from your latest that yours is hardwired, sorry.


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Am I now right in thinking that there's no actual way of measuring how much a "thing" uses if it isn't a simply "plug in" thing
> 
> Say for example, cooker or any other "hard wired" kitchen device


Only by switching everything else off.

I can do mine because my "cooker" is a 1500 watt hotplate.


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## teuchter (Mar 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Only by switching everything else off.
> 
> I can do mine because my "cooker" is a 1500 watt hotplate.


It makes more sense to leave everything else alone, and then switch the cooker on/off, surely. The difference will be the amount the cooker is using.


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## prunus (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Really, well I'll go to the foot of our stairs



There will be other draws too - there may be a flue fan, there are electronics etc.  These will add a few 10s of watts (a flue fan the most).  But about 100W/h +/- total sounds about right.


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## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2022)

teuchter said:


> It makes more sense to leave everything else alone, and then switch the cooker on/off, surely. The difference will be the amount the cooker is using.


Yes - at least that's an option now that it's light at tea time.
In my case a challenge because I can't possibly be offline for a whole 45 minutes !!

I'm going to take a gamble on a new power tester plug since I have a load of Amazon gift credit ...
I will probably wire the ammeter permanently into my bedroom workbench.
It's ironic really that for years I've had a meter I rarely look at permanently wired into my bench lighting supply ...
Mostly it's covered so the display doesn't keep me awake ...


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## WouldBe (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> What could possibly go wrong


A large peak in electricity usage as you get zapped.


----------



## prunus (Mar 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Yes - at least that's an option now that it's light at tea time.
> In my case a challenge because I can't possibly be offline for a whole 45 minutes !!
> 
> I'm going to take a gamble on a new power tester plug since I have a load of Amazon gift credit ...
> ...



JFC 😲 Are those carrying mains supply?


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## MrCurry (Mar 23, 2022)

You can deffo get low energy circulation pumps for heating circuits. I have one of these alpha 2 pumps on my system which has an LED display showing the watts it’s using. I don’t know exactly how it achieves it, perhaps monitoring temps and adjusting flow rate, but the displayed figure drops from about 18W when switched on to 8W after a while.


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## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2022)

prunus said:


> JFC 😲 Are those carrying mains supply?


They're mains rated - well at least the genuine WAGOs are - but it's only 12 volts - I repurpose binned power cords..


----------



## prunus (Mar 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> They're mains rated - well at least the genuine WAGOs are - but it's only 12 volts - I repurpose binned power cords..


Well fair enough  Just my sense of aesthetics hurt then


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## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> So how does the OWL meter work then?
> 
> That's got a clamp that goes round the mains cable as it comes into the house and reads the amount of "electric" that is flowing through the cable. Is this £60 doodah doing something that a £150 meter (yeah, I know that aren't that price, but I know me) can't do?
> 
> Again, genuine question, this is why I don't like electricity as a "thing"


The mains cable coming into the house is two (fat) conductors - the clamp will be around one of those. There may be some kind of tech that does the same thing around a multi-conductor cable, but it's not something I have heard of before.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Am I now right in thinking that there's no actual way of measuring how much a "thing" uses if it isn't a simply "plug in" thing
> 
> Say for example, cooker or any other "hard wired" kitchen device


There is, but it's non-trivial. One option would be, for example, if your cooker uses its own fused spur in the consumer unit. In such a case, you could (theoretically  ) remove the case of the CU, fit the current transformer around the switched live for the cooker spur, thread the sensing wire out of the CU, and refit the case. You would need to be aware that you were fiddling around inside something with NO circuit protection (eg RCDs), and a big fuckoff copper busbar that is protected only by a 63A or 100A company fuse. I've done stuff like that, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone who wasn't a) a bit brave, and b) knew what they were doing.


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2022)

existentialist said:


> There is, but it's non-trivial. One option would be, for example, if your cooker uses its own fused spur in the consumer unit. In such a case, you could (theoretically  ) remove the case of the CU, fit the current transformer around the switched live for the cooker spur, thread the sensing wire out of the CU, and refit the case. You would need to be aware that you were fiddling around inside something with NO circuit protection (eg RCDs), and a big fuckoff copper busbar that is protected only by a 63A or 100A company fuse. I've done stuff like that, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone who wasn't a) a bit brave, and b) knew what they were doing.


My company fuse is unfortunately right where one might trip and fall and hit the seal ...


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Yes - at least that's an option now that it's light at tea time.
> In my case a challenge because I can't possibly be offline for a whole 45 minutes !!
> 
> I'm going to take a gamble on a new power tester plug since I have a load of Amazon gift credit ...
> ...


That is making my eyes bleed.


----------



## Elpenor (Mar 23, 2022)

VAT has been taken off solar panels, insulation and heat pumps for the next 3 years, should anyone be interested.

I believe there’s also a £5k grant for heat pumps at present so they could combine nicely if you have the delta between the cost and the grant. 

Not much use though except for homeowners I think.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> A large peak in electricity usage as you get zapped.


TBF, that won't last long, and will thus not have much impact on the overall power consumption


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> VAT has been taken off solar panels, insulation and heat pumps for the next 3 years, should anyone be interested.
> 
> I believe there’s also a £5k grant for heat pumps at present so they could combine nicely if you have the delta between the cost and the grant.
> 
> Not much use though except for homeowners I think.


Heat pumps are pretty much a waste of time, except in certain very specific cases. They're also quite noisy.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 23, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Heat pumps are pretty much a waste of time, except in certain very specific cases. They're also quite noisy.


depends on the heat pump


----------



## two sheds (Mar 23, 2022)

existentialist said:


> There is, but it's non-trivial. One option would be, for example, if your cooker uses its own fused spur in the consumer unit. In such a case, you could (theoretically  ) remove the case of the CU, fit the current transformer around the switched live for the cooker spur, thread the sensing wire out of the CU, and refit the case. You would need to be aware that you were fiddling around inside something with NO circuit protection (eg RCDs), and a big fuckoff copper busbar that is protected only by a 63A or 100A company fuse. I've done stuff like that, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone who wasn't a) a bit brave, and b) knew what they were doing.


wouldn't you be better as suggested upthread - turn off the consumer unit switches except that one, or measure total consumption, switch the unit on and measure the difference?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> depends on the heat pump


And quite a few other factors, such as how well the building is insulated.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> wouldn't you be better as suggested upthread - turn off the consumer unit switches except that one, or measure total consumption, switch the unit on and measure the difference?


That's the approach I'm taking - I have a 100A CT on the main incoming live feed, and it's not hard to work out which device is which from the graphing. I do have a "spare" CT, and had thought about the idea of sticking it inside the CU, but I don't think the need really warrants the hassle.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 23, 2022)

existentialist said:


> And quite a few other factors, such as how well the building is insulated.


indeed - tbh I was mainly talking about sound levels. The dual unit ones (air-air was what I was looking at) have the compressor outside so not so noisy inside. When I was looking there was just one with a really low-noise compressor inside (can't remember which it was unfortunately, I do have it written somewhere). 

I'll look again in September but I've still got a load of wood left - hopefully enough for the rayburn for next winter. With luck the prices and noise levels will be lower.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> indeed - tbh I was mainly talking about sound levels. The dual unit ones (air-air was what I was looking at) have the compressor outside so not so noisy inside. When I was looking there was just one with a really low-noise compressor inside (can't remember which it was unfortunately, I do have it written somewhere).
> 
> I'll look again in September but I've still got a load of wood left - hopefully enough for the rayburn for next winter. With luck the prices and noise levels will be lower.


I'll try to find it, but I was watching a YouTube video from an installer, who was saying that it's not uncommon for neighbours to complain about the noise from air heat pumps.


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 23, 2022)

teuchter said:


> It makes more sense to leave everything else alone, and then switch the cooker on/off, surely. The difference will be the amount the cooker is using.


But you wouldn't know whether the reading you get is just from the cooker or whether the fridge or something else has kicked in while you're doing the measuring.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> But you wouldn't know whether the reading you get is just from the cooker or whether the fridge or something else has kicked in while you're doing the measuring.


It wouldn't hurt to drop the ring main for half an hour, to avoid confounding numbers affecting the readings...

Also worth remembering that an oven that is on for (say) an hour will not be drawing current for the whole of that hour, once the thermostat starts operating - then we're into the realms of duty cycles, and integrating the power use over time.


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> With luck the prices and noise levels will be lower.


Noise levels might be lower but if lots of people jump on the bandwagon to 'save' on fuel costs then the price may go up if the manufacturers can't keep up with demand.


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2022)

existentialist said:


> That is making my eyes bleed.


This is my stylish bench lighting it connects to


----------



## two sheds (Mar 23, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Noise levels might be lower but if lots of people jump on the bandwagon to 'save' on fuel costs then the price may go up if the manufacturers can't keep up with demand.


yes true, although given a bit more time you'd hope prices would come down again with economies of scale.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> This is my stylish bench lighting it connects to
> 
> View attachment 315571


Sadist


----------



## MBV (Mar 23, 2022)

I've been offered a smart meter (2nd generation) Is there any reason not to have installed?


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 23, 2022)

MBV said:


> I've been offered a smart meter (2nd generation) Is there any reason not to have installed?



Had mine about 7 years now and still dont have cancer ....


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> This is my stylish bench lighting it connects to
> 
> View attachment 315571


I do hope those tins are earthed


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

MBV said:


> I've been offered a smart meter (2nd generation) Is there any reason not to have installed?


From what I can tell, the only potential downside is that you're effectively giving your electricity provider a very fine-grained level of data on your electricity usage. That may or may not bother you.


----------



## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

And, going forward, they will be able to use the Smart meter for "surge pricing" and they can also disconnect you remotely, and they can sack all the meter readers


----------



## Chz (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> And, going forward, they will be able to use the Smart meter for "surge pricing" and they can also disconnect you remotely, and they can sack all the meter readers


There are meter readers still? I haven't seen one in at least 6 years! And I only got the new meter last year.
Surge pricing works both ways. Once variable pricing is in, you'll also be able to run the appliances all night for cheap without signing up for an Eco7 plan that's ruinous during the day.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> And, going forward, they will be able to use the Smart meter for "surge pricing" and they can also disconnect you remotely, and they can sack all the meter readers


Yep. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing in it for me to have a smart meter installed, so I have been studiously ignoring Bulb's repeated entreaties to book a meter installation. My current meter is one of the old-school mechanical ones (but with a row of digits, rather than the dials).


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## High Voltage (Mar 23, 2022)

How do they get the readings back at "head office" then?

Again, genuine question, I don't know


----------



## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> How do they get the readings back at "head office" then?
> 
> Again, genuine question, I don't know


There's a variety of means, but the lowest common denominator seems to be a meter with some kind of SIM that can talk to some kind of mobile network. There are all kinds of other options, each with their own advantages and disadvantages, and you won't be surprised to learn that it's not exactly an "open" topic.









						An Introduction to Smart Meter Communication
					

A smart meter is an IoT device that measures and transmits data about water, electricity, or gas consumption. It simplifies billing and improves resource management.




					www.emnify.com


----------



## skyscraper101 (Mar 23, 2022)

My old one used to connect via my wifi, or if that was down, use some sort of 2G data.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 23, 2022)

As they start pushing lower tariffs for smart meter customers, people will be falling over themselves to get one installed, thus saving the government the trouble of making them compulsory.









						Time-of-use tariffs: the benefits | Smart Energy GB
					

Find out how choosing a smart time-of-use tariff could save you money on your energy bill, and support a cleaner, greener energy system.




					www.smartenergygb.org


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## two sheds (Mar 23, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I do hope those tins are earthed


No it's ok gentlegreen earths them periodically when he touches them


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## Ranbay (Mar 23, 2022)

I like smart meters cos then you dont have to let some cunt in the house and move all the shit from under the stairs so he can look at it

It's also handy if you grow weed, cos then they don't come around and smell the weed.... not that i grow weed obvs


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## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> I like smart meters cos then you dont have to let some cunt in the house and move all the shit from under the stairs so he can look at it
> 
> It's also handy if you grow weed, cos then they don't come around and smell the weed.... not that i grow weed obvs


"could you please use your pottery kiln at a different time of day ?"


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## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> No it's ok gentlegreen earths them periodically when he touches them


I was going to say I have a thermometer wired into the 12 volt supply in the bathroom and I'm always careful to remove it from the water before I get in just in case the interference suppressing "Y"capacitor is sub-par - you can often get a bit of a tingle off SMPSUs in any case ...


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## Elpenor (Mar 23, 2022)

How is the rewiring going gentlegreen?


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## gentlegreen (Mar 23, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> How is the rewiring going gentlegreen?


That's a year off probably - I have to get all the stuff I'm keeping into my bed / living room first ...


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## prunus (Mar 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I was going to say I have a thermometer wired into the 12 volt supply in the bathroom and I'm always careful to remove it from the water before I get in just in case the interference suppressing "Y"capacitor is sub-par - you can often get a bit of a tingle off SMPSUs in any case ...



What the...? 🤣


You're a wonder mate. Long life to you 🙂


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## MickiQ (Mar 23, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> I like smart meters cos then you dont have to let some cunt in the house and move all the shit from under the stairs so he can look at it
> 
> It's also handy if you grow weed, cos then they don't come around and smell the weed.... not that i grow weed obvs


You don't have to justify yourself to us.


existentialist said:


> There's a variety of means, but the lowest common denominator seems to be a meter with some kind of SIM that can talk to some kind of mobile network. There are all kinds of other options, each with their own advantages and disadvantages, and you won't be surprised to learn that it's not exactly an "open" topic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The BG dude who fitted mine told me that the electric one had a built in SIM card and that the gas one (and the smart meter thingy in the kitchen) connected wirelessly to it.

I moved to smart meters a few years ago simply because all the cheapest deals were conditional on me getting a smart meter, watching the amount used by various devices on the kitchen smart meter thingy was fascinating at first but not really telling me anything I couldn't figure out by looking at the plate on the bottom/back of devices and doing a bit of mental arithmetic.


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## existentialist (Mar 23, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> You don't have to justify yourself to us.
> 
> The BG dude who fitted mine told me that the electric one had a built in SIM card and that the gas one (and the smart meter thingy in the kitchen) connected wirelessly to it.
> 
> I moved to smart meters a few years ago simply because all the cheapest deals were conditional on me getting a smart meter, watching the amount used by various devices on the kitchen smart meter thingy was fascinating at first but not really telling me anything I couldn't figure out by looking at the plate on the bottom/back of devices and doing a bit of mental arithmetic.


That last bit would be the main motivation for me having one, although I've done an end run around that by putting my own gadget on the supply (as mentioned upthread). Open source and configurable in a way I suspect the smart meters aren't...


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> "could you please use your pottery kiln at a different time of day ?"



No


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 23, 2022)

We were on a fixed rate tariff with Octopus until last month. £91 per month, gas and electric. Then went onto their standard tariff. £109 per month. Just now got an email saying next month it will be £179. Hmmmnnn.


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## panpete (Mar 24, 2022)

I'm with octopus, I should do a meter reading, I had loads of credit, im not doing too bad. 
Not sure if I should change tariff.
I pay £53.92 a month but it's 63 days since I read my meter, so I should do it tomorrow.
Thankfully I have a few hundred in credit to absorb these rises.


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## High Voltage (Mar 24, 2022)

I'm just starting to bottom the whole "how much electricity do I use and on what" conundrum

After switched off completely the central heating and resorting to one hours manual over-ride for hot water (GAS boiler but rest, obviously using electricity) I ended up with a new daily electrify consumption low of 4.8KW - so this is what I need to break down as to how it's being used

This morning I looked at the meter and the consumption was 5.6KW and I'd predicted that the usage would be between 5.5 - 6KW so pretty much bang on . . . the difference was one ECO dishwasher cycle with a published energy usage of .74KW, so that checks out

Back to the 4.8KW - well I know that the fridge freezer uses 1KW / day - so that's 3.8KW to account for

The TV "plug" uses about .3KW during the day

The router "plug" uses about .15KW during the day

The central heating / hot water (all things on this), I'm estimating uses .1KW for 1 hours usage

Kettle, again, guessing it's a 2-3KW kettle, used twice during the day, only filled as to what's needed, say 15minutes total, best guess .6KW

Toaster, used once a day, best guess .2KW

Various light bulbs around the house, they are now all LED bulbs, quick count up 15-20 bulbs some not used at all, some on most of the day (it's a dark house built into a hill so the living room has no direct sunlight) . . . maybe .8-1KW in the day

Now I'm hunting round to find around 1.75KWs of electrical consumption in a 24 hour period

Things that have so little consumption that you can't actually get a reading in a 24hr period but will still use electricity:-

2 x cats feeders
1 x cat water fountain
These look like they're only using 4watts combined, so maybe .1KWh

1 additional land line phone base / charger
There's a plug on the landing that is "used" for various things - but again, I'm guessing that's usage will be below .3KWh for a 24hr period

Getting there, maybe around 1KW left to account for

There's 2 extractor fans, one in the kitchen and one in the bathroom, the kitchen one can certainly be on for quite some time, but again, I don't think that they are "that" power hungry, but when you're looking for "around" a KW of energy consumption, every little counts, I spose


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## Leafster (Mar 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> There's 2 extractor fans, one in the kitchen and one in the bathroom, the kitchen one can certainly be on for quite some time, but again, I don't think that they are "that" power hungry, but when you're looking for "around" a KW of energy consumption, every little counts, I spose


If it's any use I have two Manrose Mixflow extractors and they're 25w each.


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## High Voltage (Mar 24, 2022)

Leafster said:


> If it's any use I have two Manrose Mixflow extractors and they're 25w each.


We have one Xpelair and one Greenwood - can't remember the exact models but looking on their websites for similar they both "look" to be about 30-50watts each max - the bathroom might be on for 1hr a day(??) the kitchen for 3hr a day(??), so max on both .2KW usage, again, every little helps, as they say


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## High Voltage (Mar 24, 2022)

As neither of these are "plugged in" and will only have a tiny amount of power usage the best I can do for these is guesstimate

But from starting out with an estimated annual usage from Bulb of 5200KWh against an average for a 3 bed / person household of 3200KWh and not having a fucking clue where the extra 2000KWh were miraculously coming from I'm now trying to track down "around" 1KW usage in 24hrs, I'm feeling a lot happier


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## two sheds (Mar 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I'm just starting to bottom the whole "how much electricity do I use and on what" conundrum
> 
> After switched off completely the central heating and resorting to one hours manual over-ride for hot water (GAS boiler but rest, obviously using electricity) I ended up with a new daily electrify consumption low of 4.8KW - so this is what I need to break down as to how it's being used
> 
> ...


mind the kW vs kWh to avoid confusion, but interesting


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## prunus (Mar 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I'm just starting to bottom the whole "how much electricity do I use and on what" conundrum
> 
> After switched off completely the central heating and resorting to one hours manual over-ride for hot water (GAS boiler but rest, obviously using electricity) I ended up with a new daily electrify consumption low of 4.8KW - so this is what I need to break down as to how it's being used
> 
> ...



Are you sure you don’t have any incandescent or halogen bulbs still in use somewhere unobvious?  Outside light or garage or basement or something? A 100w bulb on for 17 hours would cover your excess.


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## High Voltage (Mar 24, 2022)

prunus said:


> Are you sure you don’t have any incandescent or halogen bulbs still in use somewhere unobvious?  Outside light or garage or basement or something? A 100w bulb on for 17 hours would cover your excess.


Absolutely positive. The only "outside" light we've got is a flame effect LED bulb which is switched off and is super low wattage any way

There is no garage, there is no basement. Mrs Voltz has her "woman cave" and that has one Sonos speaker in it, low energy LED lighting and a heater, but she's pretty scrupulous in making sure everything is switched off.

That KW is "somewhere" in the house, of that I'm sure. But looking at my potential annual consumption now being less than 2000KWh, certainly or the spring, summer, autumn months I feel we can cut ourselves a fair bit of slack in the winter months


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## gentlegreen (Mar 24, 2022)

So my PC consumes 180 watts when running at 100 percent CPU...
So 2.16kwh over 12 hours...


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## Leafster (Mar 24, 2022)

High Voltage - What about a light in the loft? I've left mine on by accident and only noticed the next time I've gone up there.


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## High Voltage (Mar 24, 2022)

Leafster said:


> High Voltage - What about a light in the loft? I've left mine on by accident and only noticed the next time I've gone up there.


Nope. We don't even have a loft. Or rather we do . . . technically . . . but the "loft" is only the centre part of the roof and at it's highest point, maybe, 3 feet high

Imagine, the cottage is only 1 room deep and you can see the slope of the roof running the length of the cottage, front and back encroaching a couple of feet


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## High Voltage (Mar 24, 2022)

Just put a lagging kit around the hot water tank - why Oh why does it look so easy to do in the Screwfix catalogue when it's just the tank in the middle of a room with no wires or pipes connected to it and then you try to do it and immediately you're in an enclosed area, that's HOT and you can't reach around it - but still any lagging is better than no lagging

And here's the central heating pump we've got - any idea of the power consumption this'll have??


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## prunus (Mar 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Just put a lagging kit around the hot water tank - why Oh why does it look so easy to do in the Screwfix catalogue when it's just the tank in the middle of a room with no wires or pipes connected to it and then you try to do it and immediately you're in an enclosed area, that's HOT and you can't reach around it - but still any lagging is better than no lagging
> 
> And here's the central heating pump we've got - any idea of the power consumption this'll have??



It’s a 3-speed pump, using 35_, _45 or 50W depending on how fast it’s being told to pump.  How fast that is depends on a lot of things - it might be preset to a single speed, or controlled by demand from your heating system - depends how sophisticated a setup you’ve got. 

I would presume 50W whenever the central heating is on.


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## High Voltage (Mar 24, 2022)

Thank you very much, I'm not going to go back and check my fig'rins at the moment, but I think I'd worked on a 100W usage for ease of maths


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## prunus (Mar 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Thank you very much, I'm not going to go back and check my fig'rins at the moment, but I think I'd worked on a 100W usage for ease of maths



That’s probably fair including all the other electrics involved in a central heating system. Won’t be far off anyway.


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## Leafster (Mar 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Nope. We don't even have a loft. Or rather we do . . . technically . . . but the "loft" is only the centre part of the roof and at it's highest point, maybe, 3 feet high
> 
> Imagine, the cottage is only 1 room deep and you can see the slope of the roof running the length of the cottage, front and back encroaching a couple of feet


Ah, OK. I can't think of any other possibilities. 

Is it possible there's something else wired in somewhere which is hidden? When I moved into my place, the wiring was a little eccentric with things connected in unexpected ways. For instance, the immersion heater switch outside the bathroom actually switched the garden lights on! There were loads of cable runs which ended up connected to nothing although some of them were live. All the redundant wiring has been stripped out now but I still have a cable which comes up outside from under the extension. It's not live and my electrician suspects the other 'end' is buried somewhere under the concrete floor.


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## High Voltage (Mar 24, 2022)

Leafster said:


> Ah, OK. I can't think of any other possibilities.
> 
> Is it possible there's something else wired in somewhere which is hidden? When I moved into my place, the wiring was a little eccentric with things connected in unexpected ways. For instance, the immersion heater switch outside the bathroom actually switched the garden lights on! There were loads of cable runs which ended up connected to nothing although some of them were live. All the redundant wiring has been stripped out now but I still have a cable which comes up outside from under the extension. It's not live and my electrician suspects the other 'end' is buried somewhere under the concrete floor.


I know. If we lived in a sprawling mansion with various extensions and underground garages and servants quarters and a long drive with automatic gates and flood lights all the way up, then I'd have loads of places still to look . . . but we don't

I've switched off all the plugs that are left on with something plugged in, even if the "something" was switched off and not even on stand-by

I'm gradually changing extension leads over to extension leads with each plug having an on/off switch so I can leave thing plugged in but properly switched off

I'm in very grave danger of this becoming a "thing" in my head (If you spoke to Mrs Voltz she'd already be saying that it has). And I don't want it to but knowing where power is "going" is useful, I think, especially as we're looking at, a massive increase in all forms of energy, which I simply don't see coming down regardless of what happens to "the whole sale market"


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## cybershot (Mar 24, 2022)




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## Chz (Mar 24, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> So my PC consumes 180 watts when running at 100 percent CPU...
> So 2.16kwh over 12 hours...
> 
> View attachment 315665


Now there's a name I haven't seen in a while. My grandad worked at Sangamo in Canada.


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## gentlegreen (Mar 24, 2022)

Chz said:


> Now there's a name I haven't seen in a while. My grandad worked at Sangamo in Canada.


Last calibrated in 1969 
I nicked it from the junk box at work in the early 80s


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## NoXion (Mar 24, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> I like smart meters cos then you dont have to let some cunt in the house and move all the shit from under the stairs so he can look at it
> 
> It's also handy if you grow weed, cos then they don't come around and smell the weed.... not that i grow weed obvs



They don't need to send anyone round, if there's a smart meter then they might have enough fine-grained data to flag up anomalous electricity usage patterns consistent with cannabis cultivation. While I very much doubt that anyone is going to be stitched up purely on account of smart meter readings, it could be another piece of circumstantial evidence, and all for why? So that electricity suppliers can squeeze more cash out of their customers by monetising their electricity usage data? Nah, fuck that shit.

I hate smart meters, because I take the view that my electricity supplier doesn't need to know any more about my electricity consumption than what is required to properly bill me. They don't need to know what circuits or appliances I'm using, or what time I'm using them or the electricity supply in general, or any of that fucking nosy parker shit. I object to how we're being encouraged (by the _actual_ cunts, rather than just some regular person who's being paid a not-especially-generous wage to do a job) to trade our privacy to make _even more_ money for said cunts, while they feed us highly-crafted stories that it's all about efficiency and the environment.

That kind of involuntary data-scraping _might_ be justified if electricity was supplied by the state as a public good, or perhaps with a flat-rate pricing/billing structure more akin to broadband internet. But in the current state of things, fuck no. Suppliers can ask their customers to volunteer that information, but they shouldn't be allowed to wrap up their data mining operations into their services and then lure customers into them with promises of cheaper bills.


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## Chilli.s (Mar 24, 2022)

This is gonna badly impact on ganga prices


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## existentialist (Mar 24, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> This is gonna badly impact on ganga prices


Maybe not the ones who successfully bypass their meters...


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 25, 2022)




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## danny la rouge (Mar 25, 2022)

The Cost of Living - Anarchist Communist Group
					

Let’s put this into perspective. Energy companies are telling us that they are being “forced” to put our bills up by heart-stopping amounts, but on the other hand, Paula Rosput Reynolds, chair of BP’s remuneration committee, said: “Financial performance… was outstanding.” Something very odd is...




					www.anarchistcommunism.org


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## prunus (Mar 25, 2022)

prunus said:


> It's called an ecoforest geo, ground source, 5-22kW output (variable).  Claims COP of 5, but that will be under ideal conditions, which of course don't exist in the real world.  I'll be very happy if it manages 3.5.



Well, heat pump is in and working, it’s early days yet but so far output is 17.8kWh for 3.3kWh of electricity input, for a performance factor of 5.4 or thereabouts.  If it continues like this that’ll be a winner.


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## High Voltage (Mar 26, 2022)

prunus said:


> Well, heat pump is in and working, it’s early days yet but so far output is 17.8kWh for 3.3kWh of electricity input, for a performance factor of 5.4 or thereabouts.  If it continues like this that’ll be a winner.


Explain please . . . "Please, speak as you might to a young child, or a golden retriever" (Jeremy Irons - Margin Call)

Thank you very much


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I've had to chase up OVO today, they seem to still be struggling with getting those clowns at SSE to sort out the over charging issue OVO inherited when I was transferred over.
> 
> ATM my electricity account is showing a estimated meter reading of 17412 compared to the actual reading of 14114, some 3298kWh more than it should be, which at £0.2053kWh equals an overcharge of £677.
> 
> My joint electricity/gas account balance is currently showing -£108, and an estimate that I'll be at -£639 in 12 months at the new rates, so that £677 credit plus a reduction in my estimated usage over the coming 12 months should result in my DD being reduced even further than they have already done since I first complained.



When I first contacted OVO they dropped my DD from £171 to £125 whilst they resolve matters with SSE in respect of their off the scale estimated meter readings, despite not having resolved that, I've had an e-mail saying they are putting it up to £186 from the 15th April.  

Now I get this is probably just a automated procedure, but FFS, you would think when there's a dispute over the account, and they have a number of correct meter readings and even a bloody photo of the meter as evidence, there would be an override on the account to prevent this nonsense.

Now I will activate my automatic response and cancel the DD until this is sorted out.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 27, 2022)

That's why I dislike DDs for bills, especially when there is such increases in costs / blatant profiteering. 
I prefer to use standing orders, at least I can control the amount paid over !


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## gentlegreen (Mar 27, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> That's why I dislike DDs for bills, especially when there is such increases in costs / blatant profiteering.
> I prefer to use standing orders, at least I can control the amount paid over !


I belatedly discovered that Bulb (as was) allow you to rein-in the excess and pay a minimum of £40ish
My credit with them will be almost exhausted this month and I will have to increase the payments.
Not that it ever made much difference, but I thought them sitting on £500 - or more than 5 months' credit was a bit excessive - though the previous supplier had done that too ...


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## StoneRoad (Mar 27, 2022)

Arghhh. 

I am still going round and turning lights etc off in otherwise empty rooms after other people.
I know all the indoor ones are LEDs but that's not the point.

Also, the outside lights aren't [yet] all LEDs and the floods eat power.

Turned the thermostats [room & rads] down again. 
We have plants and small animals that will cark if they get too cold overnight.
Planning on similar with the hot water, but gradually ...


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## cybershot (Mar 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Now I will activate my automatic response and cancel the DD until this is sorted out.


There's possibly a 'discount' for paying by DD so take this consideration before cancelling. Although any discount is probably not worth the time and effort you're putting into trying to resolve it. You will likely find once it is resolved you'll get a credit put on your account anyway. 

When I had a similar problem with E.on, coincidently after transferring from OVO, they applied the tariffs to my economy 7 meter in the opposite way OVO had. I could have pleaded ignorance and probably got away with it but I didn't want to risk a huge bill if and when I left E.on and they clocked on I was night tariff for my day usage and day tariff for my night usage!

They told me it would take 6 weeks to sort. 3 Months later and it wasn't sorted.

At this point bypass customer service and go straight to the complaints department. It will magically get sorted within a week and they will give you a credit.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2022)

Just found this helpful graph on the OVO site, showing the estimated use in 2021 as supplied by SSE.

How the hell did they almost double my usage between June, which was probably about right, and July, that's completely bonkers!  

Checking back on 2020 my usage goes up by about 25% in winter, so take that June figure of 132 + 25% = 165 for December, not 375!


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## prunus (Mar 27, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Explain please . . . "Please, speak as you might to a young child, or a golden retriever" (Jeremy Irons - Margin Call)
> 
> Thank you very much



I’ll try…    A heat pump works by extracting low-temperature heat from a large source (mine is 3/4 mile of 4” pipes buried 4’ underground under about 1/2 acre of field) and ‘concentrating’ the heat to useful temperatures for heating, hot water etc. 

To do this it needs to pump liquid through the pipes (so the liquid can warm up to the temperature underground - currently 8C), and also run a compressor (like - exactly like in fact - a fridge) plus a load of other electronics and pumps and fans and so on - it therefore uses electricity to run - in my case after running for about 48 hours it had used 3.3kWh. 

One can also measure how much heat it has managed to extract and concentrate, and then distribute to the heating system and hot water in the house, over the same period - in this case 17.8kWh. 

The ratio between these figures is the performance factor, the efficiency of the system. Here on these number it’s 5.4. This means for every kWh of energy (electricity) one puts in one gets 5.4kWh of energy (heat) out, effectively reducing the energy input requirements for the house by a factor of 5.4.

This of course reduces the cost per kWh required by the same factor - so at current electricity prices from 30p/kWh required to about 5.5p/kWh - cheaper than gas!  (on these figures - which are higher than expected, so it’ll probably settle down but still be somewhere between 3 and 4x efficiency).

And of course as the input is electricity it can be sourced entirely from renewable sources (which as I’m with octopus it’s supposed to be), so as well as being cheaper than gas, it’s greener than gas too (as gas can obviously never be renewable). 

Hope that all makes sense. There is a bunch of physics contained within the phrase ‘concentrating the heat’ up at the top there, which I could take a stab at explaining, but in another post (and only if anyone requests!)


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## cybershot (Mar 27, 2022)

prunus said:


> I’ll try…    A heat pump works by extracting low-temperature heat from a large source (mine is 3/4 mile of 4” pipes buried 4’ underground under about 1/2 acre of field) and ‘concentrating’ the heat to useful temperatures for heating, hot water etc.
> 
> To do this it needs to pump liquid through the pipes (so the liquid can warm up to the temperature underground - currently 8C), and also run a compressor (like - exactly like in fact - a fridge) plus a load of other electronics and pumps and fans and so on - it therefore uses electricity to run - in my case after running for about 48 hours it had used 3.3kWh.
> 
> ...


Probably somewhere else in the tread but damned if I can trawl through 23 pages. What sort of property do you have and are you out in the sticks?


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## two sheds (Mar 27, 2022)

A fridge works by compressing the gas which heats it so the back of the fridge gets warm. It's pumped in the pipe to inside the fridge where it expands which cools the fridge itself. Heat pump works in reverse so the compressor is inside the house to warm it and the expansion unit is outside to cool the ground. 

What I don't quite understand is how you get more heat out than electrical energy you put in so why the Coefficient of Performance is above 1. I'd also thought the theoretical maximum was about 3 or 4, so 5.4 is really good and I'm wondering what the theoretical maximum actually is.


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## High Voltage (Mar 27, 2022)

prunus said:


> I’ll try…    A heat pump works by extracting low-temperature heat from a large source (mine is 3/4 mile of 4” pipes buried 4’ underground under about 1/2 acre of field) and ‘concentrating’ the heat to useful temperatures for heating, hot water etc.
> 
> To do this it needs to pump liquid through the pipes (so the liquid can warm up to the temperature underground - currently 8C), and also run a compressor (like - exactly like in fact - a fridge) plus a load of other electronics and pumps and fans and so on - it therefore uses electricity to run - in my case after running for about 48 hours it had used 3.3kWh.
> 
> ...


Say, for instance, "one" didn't have access to such a sizeable "garden" as you've got for your system . . . is there a break point where a ground heat pump isn't really viable?

Only we've got a south facing garden, on a pretty steep slope, and it's a funny shape, but size wise, best guess 40 yards by 40 yards, would a system like this be viable

And how the hell do you bury pipes 4' into the ground, please tell me you didn't hand dig them in, surely, or was that part of the installation by a company?

And, super cheeky I realise, but would you be prepared to give an indication of cost and / or break even time . . . a simple Fuck Off HV is a perfectly acceptable answer btw


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2022)

cybershot said:


> There's possibly a 'discount' for paying by DD so take this consideration before cancelling. Although any discount is probably not worth the time and effort you're putting into trying to resolve it. You will likely find once it is resolved you'll get a credit put on your account anyway.



As it's in dispute, when they finally sort it out, I expect they will keep me on the DD rate, as I'll be back to paying by DD.



> They told me it would take 6 weeks to sort. 3 Months later and it wasn't sorted.
> 
> At this point bypass customer service and go straight to the complaints department. It will magically get sorted within a week and they will give you a credit.



I first contacted OYO back in January and they said they would raise a dispute with SSE, when I called them last week it was escalated to their complaints department, next day I get an e-mail saying they are only just now opening a dispute with SSE and that it could take 12 weeks, on top of the 10 weeks I've already been waiting. 

I've e-mailed back, pointing out both their complaints policy and OFGEM rules says dispute must be dealt with within 8 weeks, and that I consider that time to be up already, and that I want my account sorted now as that's my issue, and they can carry on with their dispute with SSE which is their problem, not mine.

Got an auto-reply saying it's taking 5 working days to reply to e-mails. 

So, I'll see what happens this week, I may well end up firing off complaints to both their CEO and OFGEM.


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## prunus (Mar 27, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Probably somewhere else in the tread but damned if I can trawl through 23 pages. What sort of property do you have and are you out in the sticks?



It’s an old (15th-17th century) stone-built farmhouse, basically unmodernised until I started on it - had electricity but main source of heat and hot water was wood burning stoves - and yes it’s probably beyond the definition of the sticks - nearest neighbour is a sheep, as are the next 500 nearest neighbours. About 1/4 mile to the nearest non-sheep neighbour.   In the southern Pennines.  Beautiful.


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## two sheds (Mar 27, 2022)

How have you made it airtight(ish)? Mine is 1850s and I've done what I can but suspect there are gaps in the fabric somewhere although I can't really see any. Also is that heating air or water/underfloor heating? I think you've said but I forgot  

Have said before but Ground Elder has ground source they cost around £12,000 I think but his is shared between them and neighbours.


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## High Voltage (Mar 27, 2022)

Since the beginning of the month I've been taking daily OWL meter readings, just . . . yunno, because I have

I'm not a patient sort of chap so I've completed this month with some "projections"

Starting from a Bulb estimate of my coming years electrical usage of 5200KWh against my projections, which are based on this month only and extrapolated, are closer to 2800KWh - granted this isn't a particularly cold month, but we don't really heat using electricity and I've got spring, summer and autumn months to built up a bit of breathing room

The trend line for the month is down (from a daily 9KWh to 6KWh) - I should still be able to see "some" improvement in the coming months, but nothing on this scale as there's nothing "big" left to switch off - I would be very happy indeed with a "warm weather" usage of "around" 5KWh daily

So, whilst this isn't what the original thread started off life as (sorry editor) but it has been a journey of discovery and learning for me


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## Ground Elder (Mar 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Have said before but Ground Elder has ground source they cost around £12,000 I think but his is shared between them and neighbours.


No its all mine  Had it about ten years now & it's still working fine, although various parts are starting needing replacing. Our heating & hot water costs about a third of a conventional gas or oil system.


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## elbows (Mar 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Just found this helpful graph on the OVO site, showing the estimated use in 2021 as supplied by SSE.
> 
> How the hell did they almost double my usage between June, which was probably about right, and July, that's completely bonkers!
> 
> ...



Since there is no data before June, I'm wondering if the June figure only covers part of the month of June rather than the entire month?


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## teuchter (Mar 27, 2022)

Those kinds of graphs you can find on suppliers' websites are a bit useless mostly I think. In my observations they are based on sparse datapoints, few of them even real readings, and they probably make a whole load of assumptions about your house type, usage habits and so on which are likely to be quite wrong.


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## prunus (Mar 27, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Say, for instance, "one" didn't have access to such a sizeable "garden" as you've got for your system . . . is there a break point where a ground heat pump isn't really viable?
> 
> Only we've got a south facing garden, on a pretty steep slope, and it's a funny shape, but size wise, best guess 40 yards by 40 yards, would a system like this be viable
> 
> ...



A ground source array of 40x40 yards could power a ground source heat pump of about 15kW output (ballpark) (possibly less depending on just how weird a shape), which is fairly decent and exceeds the requirement of most houses - whether it would be sufficient for yours specifically would depend on the energy requirements of your house of course.   

You can use boreholes instead of horizontal trenches as well, which massively reduces the ground area required, but is more expensive to install. 

To dig the pipes in you get Danny and Steve to come by with their 5 ton diggers and dig ten 60m by 1.2m deep by 1m wide trenches, 3m apart, in a sort of fan pattern. The pipes are then laid as 10 loops, running up one edge of the bottom of each trench and back the other - so it’s 1m between the flow and return of each loop, and 2m to the next loop - this is so you don’t freeze the ground!

Cost was about £5k for the digging, £15k for the equipment, and £5k for the labour. Breakeven - well, lots of ways of looking at it.  The simplest would be just assuming that all heat and hot water was powered by direct electricity.  For an estimated annual requirement of 22MWh (which is what it’s estimated at - haven’t actually finished renovating it yet) the cost differentials per year are something like:

At 30p/kWh and COP of 5.4(!): saving of about £5.5k/year.

At 30p/kWh and COP of 4(more realistic): saving of about £5k/year.

At 50p/kWh (where it looks like it will be in autumn) and COP of 4: saving of about £8k/year. 

So 3 to 5 years or so, on those figures. 

However of course on purely cost grounds you’d not use electricity as your primary energy source, so that’s not really fair. Oil-fired heating is standard round here, so would be a fairer comparison pound for pound.   It would have cost about £5k to install an oil boiler and tank etc, so the cost difference to use would be £20k vs the £25k cost of the gshp. 

Heating oil is currently about 10p/kWh, so actually cheaper than gshp at COP of 4 and 50p/kWh electricity (12.5p/kWh), so one would never break even. Who knows what the price of oil (which isn’t subject to the energy cost cap I believe) will be at that point though?   If it doubles from here (and it’s already very high historically) then one would get an annual saving of about £1,500, so about 13 years. But trying to guess relative oil and electricity prices 13 years into the future is a fools game anyway!

Also - there are govt grants and paybacks for installing low-carbon systems including gshps.  How much one gets (paid quarterly over 7 years) depends on a complex calculation based on the energy requirements, energy savings, insulation level of the house and other things - I have applied for it, but don’t know yet how much I’m going to get. It could theoretically be as much as £30k - which would of course make the whole thing free (making a profit in fact!). We shall see. 

And of course the main point here, really, is to de-carbonise the energy requirements of the house; the comparisons with heating oil above therefore are missing a term which expresses how much ‘value’ to put on that.  I think it’s extremely important and am therefore willing to pay somewhat over the odds to help achieve it (and recognise that I’m very lucky to be in a position to be able to choose so - but it’s the people who can who have to for all our sakes). 

When I find out what the govt contribution is going to be I will update here.


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## magneze (Mar 27, 2022)

Do heat pumps need large gardens? Can they work in smaller, city houses?


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## two sheds (Mar 27, 2022)

Thinking about the COP again - I suppose the way to look at it is that heat isn't being generated it's just being transferred around. It takes advantage of the cooling effect of a liquid evaporating to become gas and the heating effect of a gas being compressed (then pushed into the condenser on the back of the fridge to condense it back into a liquid).


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## teuchter (Mar 27, 2022)

magneze said:


> Do heat pumps need large gardens? Can they work in smaller, city houses?


That's what air source heat pumps are for. They steal the energy from the air instead of the ground.


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## High Voltage (Mar 27, 2022)

prunus said:


> A ground source array of 40x40 yards could power a ground source heat pump of about 15kW output (ballpark) (possibly less depending on just how weird a shape), which is fairly decent and exceeds the requirement of most houses - whether it would be sufficient for yours specifically would depend on the energy requirements of your house of course.
> 
> You can use boreholes instead of horizontal trenches as well, which massively reduces the ground area required, but is more expensive to install.
> 
> ...


That's amazingly generous of you to share this . . . thank you . . . so, HOW did you find out about this stuff? Is there an Idiots Guide to this kinda thing or did you just "do you own research"


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## prunus (Mar 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> How have you made it airtight(ish)? Mine is 1850s and I've done what I can but suspect there are gaps in the fabric somewhere although I can't really see any. Also is that heating air or water/underfloor heating? I think you've said but I forgot
> 
> Have said before but Ground Elder has ground source they cost around £12,000 I think but his is shared between them and neighbours.



Heating is primarily underfloor water, most efficient for use with a heat pump (as the temperature of the heating water doesn’t have to be very high), along with a few radiators in some first floor rooms. 

We’ve made it airtight by - and not wanting to sound flippant - filling in all the holes!  The shell is basically 2 foot thick stone walls, so these have been repointed (laboriously, with traditional line mortar). We dug out the dirt floors to a depth of 30” and damp proofed, sealed and insulated with 12” of urethane foam board. Ceilings (no loft space) were lined with membrane (taped at joins), then boarded (again taped) then 8” of urethane foam boards (with more tape!) then boarded again and skimmed. 

The trickiest bit was the join between the roof and walls - basically just the one resting on the other in the original construction - this was just a case of mortaring inside and out as and where the gaps were. 

I imagine there will be more draftproofing to do as we discover leaks. The storms of last month were very useful though in identifying what tiny holes a howling gale can find to sneak in through!


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## two sheds (Mar 27, 2022)

Air source heat pumps are also either air-air so blowing out warm air or air-water so feeding into radiators. As prunus said though air-water are best for underfloor heating because the water isn't as high a temperature as you'd normally feed into radiators. 

I'm thinking of air-air but they also need fairly airtight house construction I'm hoping my place will be airtight enough to have the heat pump in the kitchen so that most of the warm air rises up the stairwell to warm upstairs and not just dissipate. That should cost less than a grand though if I can find a quiet enough one (needed as some kind urbanite initially pointed out to me). Only need it for four months of the year in Cornwall, and hopefully some of the electricity will come from the solar panels.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2022)

elbows said:


> Since there is no data before June, I'm wondering if the June figure only covers part of the month of June rather than the entire month?



*Nope, that June 2021 SSE figure is about right, i.e. 4.4kWh per day*, about the same as I used in the summer of 2020. 
Their figures for Jul & Aug 2021 would have me on almost double at 8.06 per day. 

*Just checked the last 10 weeks and I've averaged 5.69kWh per day*, just over 25% more per day compared to June 2021, about right for winter coming into spring. 
The SSE figure for Dec 2021 would have me on 12.10 per day. 
Because OVO inherited those estimates, they estimated my use from 22/12/21 - 21/3/22 @ 11.34 per day. 

Also, checking bills right back to Jan 2020, I've spotted something off the scale for the SSE period 9/1 - 16/4/21 where they estimated I used a whopping 22.46 kWh per day. 

SEE estimated meter reading for 16/4/21 was 14201, which is actually 39 higher than my meter reading today, at 14162. 

Every SSE bill from Jan 2020 onwards are estimated, despite meter readers coming in at least 3 or 4 times in 2020 & 2021, 

I am running out of s now!


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2022)

A bit more maths:

9/1/20 - 8/1/21 SEE estimated I used 5.29kWh per day, which is probably slightly high.
9/1/21 - 21/12/21 SEE estimated I used 13.49kWh per day, which is totally bonkers, as my usage between 2020 & 2021 would have barely changed.


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## WouldBe (Mar 27, 2022)

prunus said:


> I imagine there will be more draftproofing to do as we discover leaks. *The storms of last month were very useful though in identifying what tiny holes a howling gale can find to sneak in through!*


Surprising isn't it. Problem you get is you plug one hole only for the draft to come out somewhere else.  so you end up chasing your tail.


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## WouldBe (Mar 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Air source heat pumps are also either air-air so blowing out warm air or air-water so feeding into radiators. *As prunus said though air-water are best for underfloor heating because the water isn't as high a temperature as you'd normally feed into radiators.*
> 
> I'm thinking of air-air but they also need fairly airtight house construction I'm hoping my place will be airtight enough to have the heat pump in the kitchen so that most of the warm air rises up the stairwell to warm upstairs and not just dissipate. That should cost less than a grand though if I can find a quiet enough one (needed as some kind urbanite initially pointed out to me). Only need it for four months of the year in Cornwall, and hopefully some of the electricity will come from the solar panels.


I have problems with heat it can cause muscle problems and me passing out. I've put a thermostatic mixer valve on the thermal store so the water to the rads is limited to ~43°C which is about the temp from heat pumps (40°C?). Heats the house perfectly well and I've not had to bleed the radiators in the 4 years I've had it fitted.


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## WouldBe (Mar 27, 2022)

prunus said:


> A ground source array of 40x40 yards could power a ground source heat pump of about 15kW output (ballpark) (possibly less depending on just how weird a shape), which is fairly decent and exceeds the requirement of most houses - whether it would be sufficient for yours specifically would depend on the energy requirements of your house of course.
> 
> You can use boreholes instead of horizontal trenches as well, which massively reduces the ground area required, but is more expensive to install.
> 
> ...


How do you heat the water tank to >60°C if the heat pump output is only 40°C?
Won't there also be the energy required for this extra heating to be factored in?


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## cybershot (Mar 27, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Since the beginning of the month I've been taking daily OWL meter readings, just . . . yunno, because I have
> 
> I'm not a patient sort of chap so I've completed this month with some "projections"
> 
> ...


It will be interesting to see how it comes down towards the peak of summer and increases again. I am suspecting the fact you will be using less energy to light indoors you'll see a dip by a rise and then you might feel more comfortable with your daily yearly averages!


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## Saunders (Mar 27, 2022)

I love this thread. I don’t understand all of it (mental block against all things electricity and physics) but what I do get is very interesting and informative and particularly useful. Thanks all.


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## existentialist (Mar 27, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Arghhh.
> 
> I am still going round and turning lights etc off in otherwise empty rooms after other people.
> I know all the indoor ones are LEDs but that's not the point.
> ...


Someone should make replacement thermostat dials with the temperatures printed as 2C above the actual 

"But I _like_ it at 21C" "Fine, fill your boots, muahahahaha"


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## existentialist (Mar 27, 2022)

Talking of which, my flat was at 17C this morning at 0900, without the need for any heating. I think it's sunshine more than anything.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> SEE estimated meter reading for 16/4/21 was 14201, which is actually 39 higher than my meter reading today, at 14162.



I've been out much of today, back home I've now calculated the total SES/OVO have charged me in electricity usage from 16/4/21 up to the last bill dated 21/3/22, excluding standing charges, and it's *a whopping £807.20 over payment*, the actual amount will be slightly higher as my meter has still not reached that estimated reading on 16/4/21. 

Looking forward to getting that credited to my account.


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## WouldBe (Mar 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Only need it for four months of the year in Cornwall, and hopefully some of the electricity will come from the solar panels.


Normally need heating in the evening when it's dark so would need some sort of battery storage to do that.

Also depends how much your solar panels generate. Mine are SE facing and produced the grand total of 21.7kW for the whole of January.


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## two sheds (Mar 27, 2022)

Indeed, mine face SW but still only produced 29 kW in January, average of about 60 kW for the other three months but I'd mainly be using that during the day for the puter.

I'm also not sure about batteries for winter - they're supposed to be deep cycle but I'd have thought running them off empty would damage them.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 28, 2022)

OVO update - finally got to speak to someone in the complaints department, having been told they don't actually take calls last week, it took about 30 minutes of going politely round and round in circles before they gave up and got someone to take my call.

1 - The DD has been reduced back down from £186 to £125, and a stop has been put on the system to prevent that being changed again until the metre dispute is resolved, which she admitted should have been done when I first contacted them early Jan.

2 - She said there was no record in the notes of me calling on 11th & 26th Jan. with readings, nor when I entered it online 17th Mar., nor my call on 18th Mar. I asked her to confirm they record all calls, they do, so she's going to check the call logs to confirm the calls. She has taken all the meter readings given & confirmed receipt of the photo e-mailed last week, so they can now work out my correct estimated current usage, and work out my correct payments going forward, before completing the dispute with SSE, and crediting my account.

3 - She couldn't agree at this point that the complaint was first raised on 11th Jan., and that's when the 8 week limit to resolve the issue should have started, so I compromised and agreed the 8 weeks could start from their e-mail last Mon 21st Mar., which is a partial result, as their e-mail quoted another 12 - 14 weeks.

4 - I have her full name & she taken personal 'ownership' of the complaint & promised it will be totally resolved in basically 7 weeks from today, and once she has checked the phone calls and confirmed that they screwed up, she will be in contact to discuss compensation for their cock-ups, my time wasted & the inconvenience caused.

5 - She understands that if that doesn't happen in that timeframe I will open a complaint with the Energy Ombudsman, which she wants to avoid.

So, still not totally resolved today, which was my negotiation starting position today, but I didn't expect it would be, so I am happy with the DD being reduced and the promise to conclude all this in 7 weeks from today, and I take that as result.

It's been bloody hard work to get to this point, which I can cope with & manage, but plenty of people probably can't, and that's what pisses me off even more TBH.


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## two sheds (Mar 28, 2022)

Yep getting name of someone you've spoken to has to be top priority. All in all nicely done.


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## High Voltage (Mar 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> . . . 4 - I have her full name & she taken personal 'ownership' of the complaint & promised it will be totally resolved in basically 7 weeks from today . . .


You do realise that she's probably in the last week of working her notice, don't you


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## StoneRoad (Mar 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt 
Well played, sir.

But a pity that they have let it get to this stage, their motivation seem to be avoiding the EO and getting ££££ into their back accounts, rather than doing the right thing by their customers. I'll bet it takes them right up to the last week they have available to get it resolved.
Given that not everybody has the stamina to go as far as you have done, might I suggest that you notify the EO anyway [in case the EO is unaware of the "shady" tactics in such cases ...


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## teuchter (Mar 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OVO update - finally got to speak to someone in the complaints department, having been told they don't actually take calls last week, it took about 30 minutes of going politely round and round in circles before they gave up and got someone to take my call.
> 
> 1 - The DD has been reduced back down from £186 to £125, and a stop has been put on the system to prevent that being changed again until the metre dispute is resolved, which she admitted should have been done when I first contacted them early Jan.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for keeping us up to date with all the fascinating and unique details of your customer services journey.


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## Sue (Mar 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Thanks so much for keeping us up to date with all the fascinating and unique details of your customer services journey.


Bit tetchy today, teuchter   (((teuchter)))


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Thanks so much for keeping us up to date with all the fascinating and unique details of your customer services journey.


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## existentialist (Mar 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Thanks so much for keeping us up to date with all the fascinating and unique details of your customer services journey.


Urban is full of acts of public service like this. and I think it is lovely that you have seen fit to draw attention to it.


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## teuchter (Mar 28, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Urban is full of acts of public service like this. and I think it is lovely that you have seen fit to draw attention to it.


It's just a shame that others interpreted my comment so negatively.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 28, 2022)

Boots on lads, teuchter's bullshit is getting deeper.


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## gentlegreen (Mar 28, 2022)

Sue said:


> Bit tetchy today, teuchter   (((teuchter)))


He was getting a bit of grief on the n00b's thread ...


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## StoneRoad (Mar 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Thanks so much for keeping us up to date with all the fascinating and unique details of your customer services journey.


please, sod off, "mate"

cupid_stunt 's information & tactics will, almost certainly, be useful to someone else.


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## High Voltage (Mar 29, 2022)

I don't understand all of this hostility, I really don't

I'm looking forward to the next thrilling installment of cupid_stunt's monumental opus. A tale of the lone warrior battling against the multi headed bureaucracy of the hydraesque energy provider. Edge of the seat stuff, a veritable roller coaster of a ride and we're ALL sat in the front seat of the first car

Edit: added pomposity


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## High Voltage (Mar 30, 2022)

Just a little reminder to inform your current electricity supplier of your meter reading either today or tomorrow this ensures that as little as possible / none of the electricity you use will be charged at an estimated usage rate and at thud new prices

Artificially boosting told reading is fraud however you maybe tempted to round up 

If on a prepaid key (?) it maybe worth, if you can afford it, loading up your account to the max as prepaid electricity should be charged at the old rate until you have exhausted what has been preloaded - check with your provider

And whilst the temptation to stop paying by direct debit maybe great the extra cost in doing so may not be worth it

This guidance comes from Martin Lewes "The Money Saving Expert" check either youtube or his Web site for and clarification or confirmation

He also suggests not changing suppliers for the time being but again check TMSE our other sources you trust


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## Leafster (Mar 30, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Just a little reminder to inform your current electricity supplier of your meter reading either today or tomorrow this ensures that as little as possible / none of the electricity you use will be charged at an estimated usage rate and at thud new prices
> 
> Artificially boosting told reading is fraud however you maybe tempted to round up
> 
> ...


I'm wondering whether the suppliers systems might get overloaded with all the meter readings being sent tomorrow evening.


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## alex_ (Mar 30, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I'm wondering whether the suppliers systems might get overloaded with all the meter readings being sent tomorrow evening.



Its probably worth doing one today and one tomorrow then.


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## High Voltage (Mar 30, 2022)

I've given then one reading already for this month, "around" the 24th I think, I'm going to give them another one today and I'll try to remember to give them a final reading when I go to bed on the 31st - the one that I've already given them appears on my account (Bulb), so the worst that will happen is I get gouged for 7 days, but hopefully, with the other readings, I can limit that opportunity for them even further


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 30, 2022)

Well I'll do both my meter readings, and keep a note of them, because only the gas ones updates on the OVO site, due to the electricity one being so much lower than what they were given by SSE.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 30, 2022)

Good point !
Will get onto that shortly.


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## two sheds (Mar 30, 2022)

Some thoughts by MSE: 



			https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/03/-energy-firms-confirm-new-rates-under-the-new-price-cap---and-mo/
		



> Energy suppliers have now confirmed their new prices under the upcoming 1 April price cap. Most biggies, including British Gas, E.on and Scottish Power, have hiked their standard tariffs to the maximum allowed under the cap. Octopus is the outlier, pricing an average £50/year under the cap for existing customers, based on typical use. The new rates will mean huge bill increases for millions – see how your provider is changing prices below.





> The hikes are all down to the energy regulator Ofgem raising the price cap on standard and default tariffs by 54% (see our Price cap guide for full info). The cap will be £1,971/year for a typical household from Friday 1 April, due to record wholesale energy prices, which are those that firms pay. The new price cap unit rates are, on average:


<table giving rates>


> The majority of households are now on these standard tariffs – you'll be on one if you've never switched, your fixed deal ended and you didn't switch again, or if your provider went bust and you were moved across to a new supplier.
> 
> 
> While there's little you can do to avoid the hikes, as there are no cheap deals available to switch to, see Martin's 'Is it time to fix?' video explainer if you pay by direct debit, and his prepayment 'top-up trick' video if you prepay for your energy.


There's also notes on help for people struggling to pay bills.


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## muscovyduck (Mar 30, 2022)

Is it worth switching to Octopus then?


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## two sheds (Mar 30, 2022)

Not sure - it does say:


> You can't switch to most of these deals – they're only for existing customers. There are no variable deals meaningfully cheaper than the price cap that you can switch to. And the cheapest fixed deal you can switch to on the open market is £3,200/year on typical use, which, at best guess, simply isn't worth it.
> 
> 
> The key for many is what your existing firm will offer you. There have been a few short-lived deals recently from E.on and Octopus that people have grabbed where prices have been not substantially above the April price cap.  And as prices are expected to rise substantially again in October, that is worth considering. See Martin's 'Is it time to fix?' video for full help.


but worth checking?


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## magneze (Mar 30, 2022)

By those tables, it looks like everyone's charging the same. The wonders of market choice in action.


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 30, 2022)

Random paranoia struck yesterday that this is the way we get punished for not commuting back to the office.

"Well they can afford it now" must surely have crossed Sunaks warped mind.


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## magneze (Mar 30, 2022)

Sunak could afford to pay everyone's energy bill and still be a billionaire. Probably.


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 30, 2022)

magneze said:


> Sunak could afford to pay everyone's energy bill and still be a billionaire. Probably.



His wife could, he'd be able to give everyone a nice boost and still be a millionaire though.


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## chandlerp (Mar 30, 2022)

Had my energy renewal through last night.   Gas & Electric previously £1702 for the year gone up to £4258.  Fucking cunts.


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## JoeyBoy (Mar 30, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> If on a prepaid key (?) it maybe worth,_* if you can afford it*_, loading up your account to the max as prepaid electricity should be charged at the old rate until you have exhausted what has been preloaded - check with your provider


And therein lies the one massive flaw in that plan


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## High Voltage (Mar 30, 2022)

The reading I've taken today has successfully uploaded


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## cybershot (Mar 30, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I'm wondering whether the suppliers systems might get overloaded with all the meter readings being sent tomorrow evening.


You're assuming the majority of the British public are competent. Which they disprove over and over again, so I don't expect any issues.


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## hash tag (Mar 30, 2022)

Sorry to go off on a slight tangent...we have been told to expect a hike in our electricity bill for the coming year, but worse than that is the service charges. We thought there would be an increase in these charges next year, but an unofficial chat to one of the management committee says they expect a massive rise in charges for the coming year, in part due to the increase in leccy charges.


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 30, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Sorry to go off on a slight tangent...we have been told to expect a hike in our electricity bill for the coming year, but worse than that is the service charges. We thought there would be an increase in these charges next year, but an unofficial chat to one of the management committee says they expect a massive rise in charges for the coming year, in part due to the increase in leccy charges.



This is the shit aspect of it, they are "rebalancing" the standing charges and use charges so you cnay even cut down on your usage without getting shafted.


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## scifisam (Mar 30, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> This is the shit aspect of it, they are "rebalancing" the standing charges and use charges so you cnay even cut down on your usage without getting shafted.



Different thing. I guess it does make sense that communal service charges will go up even more too if they include electricity in any form. ☹️


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## hash tag (Mar 30, 2022)

scifisam said:


> Different thing. I guess it does make sense that communal service charges will go up even more too if they include electricity in any form. ☹️


Lifts, communal lighting, door entry etc.


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## muscovyduck (Mar 30, 2022)

Errrr.... try and get evidence of submitting the meter reading and double check what's actually down in the system today or tomorrow. A couple of mine from British Gas have randomly disappeared into thin air


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## moochedit (Mar 30, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> *Nope, that June 2021 SSE figure is about right, i.e. 4.4kWh per day*, about the same as I used in the summer of 2020.
> Their figures for Jul & Aug 2021 would have me on almost double at 8.06 per day.
> 
> *Just checked the last 10 weeks and I've averaged 5.69kWh per day*, just over 25% more per day compared to June 2021, about right for winter coming into spring.
> ...



I had an email from sse saying my smart meters hadn't worked since october and could i send them readings online. I was away from home for a few days so couldn't read them until today. Tried it earlier and found they had closed my sse accounts with estimated readings earlier today and transfered the balances to ovo. I logged into the new ovo account and they seem to think my smart meters are working fine and have adjusted the balances. So i think i will keep an eye on it and just talk to ovo later if i need to.


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## prunus (Mar 30, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> That's amazingly generous of you to share this . . . thank you . . . so, HOW did you find out about this stuff? Is there an Idiots Guide to this kinda thing or did you just "do you own research"



My pleasure.  It’s one of the weaknesses of my personality that I love sharing information. 

I did my own research. There’s this bloke called Kevyn on YouTube that has a channel called ‘FREE your(true)self from the clutches of Big NRG!!!!’ And he taught me all I know. 

No, not really. I used to be a scientist so researching and working things out is just how I do things. Started with heat pump installers’ websites, then when I’d got the basics (and crucially terminology) from their FAQs and the like, used that to search scientific papers and so on to get the detail. I also learned a lot from just talking to the people putting in the heat pump - there’s no substitute for face to face learning from someone who actually does it - but I find it very very useful to have the background, so that you can ask the right questions, and understand the answers. Plus when it becomes clear you know a bit about the physics and so on, they will answer in a different (and more detailed) way to how they might otherwise. 

Happy to try to answer any other questions anyone might have


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 30, 2022)

EDF have been calling and not leaving a message for two weeks. Finally noticed them calling and declined the offer of a smart meter.


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## prunus (Mar 30, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> How do you heat the water tank to >60°C if the heat pump output is only 40°C?
> Won't there also be the energy required for this extra heating to be factored in?



The hot water (as in taps) is generally only heated to 50-55C, (as that’s where the efficiency of heat pumps starts to asymptote); it doesn’t ‘bother’ to heat the radiator/underfloor heating water to that temperature, as it’s just not efficient to do so. 35-45C is normal.  So the output of the heat pump is modulated according to the end usage - it’s not that it can’t heat above 40C, just that it doesn’t need to for the heating circuits. 

Most heat pumps (or the associated hw cylinder) include an immersion heater to a) boost heat when demand is overcoming supply (properly spec’d this shouldn’t happen often) and b) to provide a programmed temporary boost to 60C to kill off legionnaires.


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## two sheds (Mar 30, 2022)

One thing I have to watch with the solar pv heated immersion heater is to watch legionnaires - not been a problem over the last month or so though  

I'm tempted to check out wind generator with battery backup for evenings - only need say 1 kWh for the computer and lights perhaps plus heat pump in winter. I'd love a darrieus type they're so elegant but have a suspicion my place is too sheltered by trees


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## friendofdorothy (Mar 30, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Is it worth switching to Octopus then?


I'm with Octopus and they seem to be quite good (in comparision to EDF, British Gas and others I was with previous)  Have to do monthly readings but that seems ok They enable me to alter my own dd amounts easily via the website and they spent the winter encouraging us with lots of tips to save energy and reduce bills.


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## Sue (Mar 30, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> I'm with Octopus and they seem to be quite good (in comparision to EDF, British Gas and others I was with previous)  Have to do monthly readings but that seems ok They enable me to alter my own dd amounts easily via the website and they spent the winter encouraging us with lots of tips to save energy and reduce bills.


Also really easy to get your money back if you're in credit.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Mar 31, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Sorry to go off on a slight tangent...we have been told to expect a hike in our electricity bill for the coming year, but worse than that is the service charges. We thought there would be an increase in these charges next year, but an unofficial chat to one of the management committee says they expect a massive rise in charges for the coming year, in part due to the increase in leccy charges.


in a weird way my service charge for the coming year is -£0.70, I suspect next year is where the hit lies.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 31, 2022)

prunus said:


> I did my own research. There’s this bloke called Kevyn on YouTube that has a channel called ‘FREE your(true)self from the clutches of Big NRG!!!!’ And he taught me all I know.



I normally mentally back away when I see the words - 'I did my own research', I knew I didn't need to on this occasion, then the follow-up sentence made me laugh.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 31, 2022)

prunus - a few years ago, I worked at the second major firm of consulting engineers during my time as a Librarian. This firm had quite an interest in "renewables" - the first such firm some years previously had been into wave power developments ... So, I picked up a good deal of information over the years to add to the basic information I gleaned as a student, even earlier. Yes, I know things change & improve, but I have kept an amateur eye on the subject all my life ...

Heat pumps are out for me, despite living in a rural area. 
The cost of getting pipework laid as the system would probably have to cross a road is also a barrier ...
I will investigate the borehole variety instead [expect that to be much more costly] but I don't like the noise factor with air source pumps - I've rejected several freezers & 'fridges on that basis !

I live in a National Park - and somewhat adjacent to a world heritage site - which could also be a barrier.
The local rumour mill says that the NP/local council have been "obstructive" in some cases when applications for roof-mounted solar panels were investigated a few years ago. One of the companies near my workshop install them, I'll have a chat with their boss ...
That [official] opposition - if it existed - should have disappeared by now, so that's another option to investigate.

Windmills / wind turbines could well have the same "nimby" magnetism as solar panels ... dig a decent hole around here and you'll probably find a roman at the bottom. There's the route of a roman road within "biscuit toss" of my back garden !

At the moment, the only renewable I can use is homegrown & seasoned firewood for a logburner !

So, we are stuck in the LPG & electric price sinkhole ...


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## High Voltage (Mar 31, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> prunus - a few years ago, I worked at the second major firm of consulting engineers during my time as a Librarian. This firm had quite an interest in "renewables" - the first such firm some years previously had been into wave power developments ... So, I picked up a good deal of information over the years to add to the basic information I gleaned as a student, even earlier. Yes, I know things change & improve, but I have kept an amateur eye on the subject all my life ...
> 
> Heat pumps are out for me, despite living in a rural area.
> The cost of getting pipework laid as the system would probably have to cross a road is also a barrier ...
> ...


We are pretty much as you - we're in a conservation area , however, there has been several "new builds" allowed as part of the overall development

We have LPG, wood, "some" coal and electricity

Our cottage is built into the side of Mendips (I can stand at the back of the house and the roof line comes down and touches my thigh) - we don't have any windows on the back of the cottage (obviously) and we don't have windows, really, at the two ends, so all light comes in through the, luckily south facing, front

Hmm! time to do some investigating I feel, but who to trust?


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## two sheds (Mar 31, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> I don't like the noise factor with air source pumps - I've rejected several freezers & 'fridges on that basis !



Nearly all I looked at had a noise level of 60 dB or so. No good for inside but with an outside unit could it not be in somewhere that's soundproofed? 

And I'll swear I saw one with indoor unit only and with noise level of around 30 dB. I'll try to find it again if you're interested.


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## Cerv (Mar 31, 2022)

apparently every household in the county trying to submit a meter reading at once is more than they're set up to cope with.








						‘Bleak Friday’: websites of UK energy suppliers crash in meter reading rush
					

Customers try to beat 54% price rise, as multiple hikes from council tax to VAT on pub food also come into effect




					www.theguardian.com
				




take a pic of your meter today for a note of the number, and you should be able to submit that later with today's date on it.


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## pinkmonkey (Mar 31, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> prunus
> 
> Windmills / wind turbines could well have the same "nimby" magnetism as solar panels ... dig a decent hole around here and you'll probably find a roman at the bottom. There's the route of a roman road within "biscuit toss" of my back garden !
> 
> ...


wind turbines are useless unless they’re enormous and up a very tall mast. I had a Rutland wind genny up a 15 foot mast, when I had a mooring on Tottenham marsh (which is exposed and windy for London). I’d get about 4amps in gale force wind and barely anything otherwise. Compare that to 20 or 30 amps for the solar, hell I even get 1 amp off a full moon! I’d then end up switching the genny off overnight in windy weather because of the whirring whining noise. It then actually blew over and I never reinstated it. My solar on the other hand is great - between the equinoxes - Spring and summer we get 100% of our electricity from them. I’m upgrading to lifepo4 batteries this year  and hoping to extend that.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 31, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Nearly all I looked at had a noise level of 60 dB or so. No good for inside but with an outside unit could it not be in somewhere that's soundproofed?
> 
> And I'll swear I saw one with indoor unit only and with noise level of around 30 dB. I'll try to find it again if you're interested.


Not just the amount, but the frequencies & harmonics are the problem.

I have a similar difficulty with vacuum cleaners, about the only ones I can tolerate are the Numatic "Henries"- even with ear plugs & defenders for other makes. We got a Boss Vax a few years ago for dog hair removal, and I have a real problem with using it, often the result includes me developing a cluster-type headache.


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## WouldBe (Mar 31, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Nearly all I looked at had a noise level of 60 dB or so. No good for inside but with an outside unit *could it not be in somewhere that's soundproofed?*


Don't think so as it would have to be air tight which would stop the heat pump working.


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## two sheds (Mar 31, 2022)

Indeed, although I was thinking you could just soundproof the casing leaving the vent free - I'd have thought a lot of the vibration comes from the casing.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 31, 2022)

We've finally sorted out our electric "deal" for the next year - the monthly amount is almost double what we were paying, which was a little under what it should have been.

The bad weather has put me off doing the laundry today, getting stuff dry would be even more expensive than usual as the relative humidity is very high.


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## alex_ (Mar 31, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Nearly all I looked at had a noise level of 60 dB or so. No good for inside but with an outside unit could it not be in somewhere that's soundproofed?
> 
> And I'll swear I saw one with indoor unit only and with noise level of around 30 dB. I'll try to find it again if you're interested.



What is that compared to a gas boiler though ?


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## StoneRoad (Mar 31, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Indeed, although I was thinking you could just soundproof the casing leaving the vent free - I'd have thought a lot of the vibration comes from the casing.


Thinking how we've soundproofed "sheds" for various compressors over the years has given me an idea of how to do this, in terms of baffles etc.


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## two sheds (Mar 31, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Thinking how we've soundproofed "sheds" for various compressors over the years has given me an idea of how to do this, in terms of baffles etc.


as in you think it's possible, or not possible? 

I'd have suggested adding a wideish hose to the inlet but that might affect airflow.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 31, 2022)

two sheds said:


> as in you think it's possible, or not possible?
> 
> I'd have suggested adding a wideish hose to the inlet but that might affect airflow.


A combination of resilient mountings, insulation of the enclosure, baffles on inlet & outlet louvres are the factors I would consider.  

Experience might mean altering the insulation to a composite of rigid, closed call foam and loose rock-wool to deaden sound transmission.
We have a similar problem with the engine room on our boat ... and that has the added complication that whatever we use also has to be fireproof !


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## Chz (Mar 31, 2022)

prunus said:


> The hot water (as in taps) is generally only heated to 50-55C, (as that’s where the efficiency of heat pumps starts to asymptote); it doesn’t ‘bother’ to heat the radiator/underfloor heating water to that temperature, as it’s just not efficient to do so. 35-45C is normal.  So the output of the heat pump is modulated according to the end usage - it’s not that it can’t heat above 40C, just that it doesn’t need to for the heating circuits.
> 
> Most heat pumps (or the associated hw cylinder) include an immersion heater to a) boost heat when demand is overcoming supply (properly spec’d this shouldn’t happen often) and b) to provide a programmed temporary boost to 60C to kill off legionnaires.


That's the one thing that really puts me off them. I'm in a flat with no room for an immersion heater of a size that would cater to three people taking a shower one after another. (and we limit them to 4-5 minutes!) Let alone a bath once or twice a month. Maybe you could justify a heat pump for heating and gas for hot water, but as it's a well insulated flat hot water usage is already more than heating usage 95% of the days of the year.

That said, we only heat the water to 48C. More seems pointless when there's no standing water around and that's enough to burn if you hold your hand under it for 60s. We originally turned it down to that level because toddler, but found it's perfectly livable.

Even if there's a way around that, most people aren't going to pick one up until something is done about the disparity of gas prices vs. electric per kWh.


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## Leafster (Mar 31, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I'm wondering whether the suppliers systems might get overloaded with all the meter readings being sent tomorrow evening.


My concerns appear to have been warranted after all.

I gave Bulb my meter readings just after lunch and got emails back from them to confirm they'd received them. However, I've just tried to log in again and it's telling me I'm in a half an hour queue!


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## gentlegreen (Mar 31, 2022)

Right on cue :-


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## two sheds (Mar 31, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Right on cue :-



Good introduction - then mainly interesting for why they're good even in cold climates. 

I've had at the back of my mind that I don't generate a lot of unused solar power in the winter because I've got a controller that uses it to heat the immersion heater. If I disconnected that, though, I could have a heat pump warm up the house when the sun's shining. Hopefully some of that would warm upstairs for the evening (and sunny days tend to mean cold nights). 

Best place for it is in the kitchen and I've got a small, very deep window that doesn't really gather much light. I should check whether I could fit an air-air heat pump there. Unfortunately it's next to the road so we're back to noise. Hopefully there'll be quieter versions in autumn or autumn after next since that's when the wood will have run out.


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## two sheds (Mar 31, 2022)

Ta for that gg. This is good too, explains how they work. Up to about 20 minutes then goes on to heating in very cold climates, and how stupid it is that air conditioning units don't have a heat pump mode (which it is, the portable units I looked at usually had dehumidifier and cooling modes, too). I just never need cooling in the house because of the thickness of the walls.

Says maximum COP is 5.5 but not sure whether that's a theoretical maximum and does point out that the seasonal efficiency depends on outdoor climate. Don't think it would vary too much in the UK though apart from oop norf.


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## DJWrongspeed (Mar 31, 2022)

Octopus Energy site down/crashing. Seems a bit obvious this was going to be the scenario of everyone wanting to submit. Martin Lewes has getting very excited about this for weeks !


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## Saunders (Mar 31, 2022)

I’ve given up


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## prunus (Mar 31, 2022)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Octopus Energy site down/crashing. Seems a bit obvious this was going to be the scenario of everyone wanting to submit. Martin Lewes has getting very excited about this for weeks !



Octopus’s prices aren’t changing til midnight on Saturday 2nd in any case - and I’m pretty sure that you can backdate the date of a reading up to 5 days (maybe more?) on their site, so you’ve got all next week to get the reading in.


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## two sheds (Mar 31, 2022)

I thought it used to be that you could challenge estimated readings by inserting the correct reading afterwards. Not possible any more?


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## prunus (Mar 31, 2022)

prunus said:


> Octopus’s prices aren’t changing til midnight on Saturday 2nd in any case - and I’m pretty sure that you can backdate the date of a reading up to 5 days (maybe more?) on their site, so you’ve got all next week to get the reading in.



More info (and slightly more accurate info at that) on this for other octopus customers: prices change from 00:00 (midnight) on Saturday, indeed, but that means in about 2 hours and 20 minutes from now (I’d assumed 24 hours later, erroneously). 

However if you submit them a reading taken on Saturday (on Saturday, or up to 5 days later*) they will apply it from that time (ie the beginning of Saturday) at the old rate. So you can effectively get your Saturday usage (up to the point of reading) at a discount to the then applicable rate. 

* I’m not 100% certain about the 5 days later, so for safety read and submit on Saturday.


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## two sheds (Mar 31, 2022)

this is the low noise one I found (indoor unit, no outdoor unit): actually 33 - 41 dB









						Olimpia Splendid Unico Smart 12HP 2.6kW All-In-One Air Conditioning
					

Buy Olimpia Splendid Unico Smart 12HP 2.6kW All-In-One Air Conditioning Unit from Sunbelt Sales, we promise to match any price you find elsewhere




					www.sunbeltsales.co.uk
				






> *Is 40 dB fan loud?* 40dB is generally considers to be as loud as most people want to have a constant noise level .. as in background noise in home environment.



I have a fan heater on upstairs next to me in cold periods, not sure what that noise level is but I'd assume around 40dB and I can live with that.

unfortunately nearly 1m across, 200mm deep, 500mm high would stick out at the bottom of the stairs. Alternative is to install it just above the Rayburn in the middle of the kitchen if I'm not using the Rayburn any more. Would need two large holes drilling in the wall though. 

Would need to be on 7 hours a day = 7 kWh = £2.5/day or £250ish for the winter, assuming the heat goes upstairs.

/sorry just trying to work out whether worthwhile


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> this is the low noise one I found (indoor unit, no outdoor unit): actually 33 - 41 dB
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I may have missed something, but I thought you were after a heat pump, that says it's a 'cooling only air conditioner'.


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## two sheds (Apr 1, 2022)

There's a heat pump version, hopefully similar specs (although now see COP only 2.5).



> HP version - Fitted with a heat pump - thanks to this feature, you can replace or support your traditional heating in intermediate seasons.



Although must admit I hadn't noticed the 'cooling only' bit this time I looked at it.


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## not a trot (Apr 1, 2022)

Just looked at the reading on our smart meter. £4.70 at the moment for today, it's usually around the £2 mark.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 1, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> And therein lies the one massive flaw in that plan


I might be wrong but I think they sometimes ask for it back if you use a load of leccy on the old rate after the rates change, I read a warning to that effect recently and  not sure which providers it applies to. So make absolutely sure that won't happen if anyone is planning this.


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## Storm Fox (Apr 1, 2022)

Regarding Heat pumps, I just looked at my Tariff prices this morning 7.8p a kWh for gas and 30p for Electricity. So you are going to need a heat pump with a greater than 4.2 COP* to save money
So unfortunately even with the most efficient heat pumps the return on investment is going to be years.

*The amount of heat moved for each unit of electricity. See the Technology Connections youtube vid for more details


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## StoneRoad (Apr 1, 2022)

Just checked on our electric.
Ouch.
It will be going up from about  £175 to £250 per month.
on an estimate of around 10,250 kWh p.a.

Will be looking to reduce that consumption as much as possible, but with four adults ...
especially as most have the bad habit of leaving lights, radio/TV etc running.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 1, 2022)

I suppose my perspective is a bit warped ... there was an embarrassing phase where "Innocent smoothies" were my number 1 outgoing ...
But my total outgoings (no rent) amount to just a bit more than my prospective state pension...
Once I relocate to somewhere with a large garden, I am definitely going to grow a lot of my own food - at the moment I'm focussing on salads - which would cost me a lot to buy but provide nutrients I'm already covered for ... I could of course save a lot of money by eating Iceland frozen veggies and cheap carbs instead of fresh veggies ... and a multivit for insurance ...

Getting my internet charges massively reduced is my current priority ...

*food - 8.50 per day* - roughly national average for single people.
council tax 3.3
comms 3
*energy 2.38 - now 3.31*
wine - 2
(income tax 1.36)
teeth 1
water 1
house insurance 0.6
coffee 0.50


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## xenon (Apr 1, 2022)

Dum question.

If price rises this April have been capped at 54%, why are there loads of stories about people's bills trippling.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 1, 2022)

xenon said:


> Dum question.
> 
> If price rises this April have been capped at 54%, why are there loads of stories about people's bills trippling.


End of locked contracts ?


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## xenon (Apr 1, 2022)

Anyway I can't read my meter so yeah, fun times ahead I reckon. Have told BG this already. I thought the smart meter meant it reported readings back to base. And SMETS 2 smart meters were able to be used by a new supplier when you changed anyway.


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## xenon (Apr 1, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> End of locked contracts ?



Ah I see. The 54% being above what ever the rate per unit is now. not 54% on top of what you were paying. Gotya. Cheers.


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 1, 2022)

I don't think that 200 quid loan is going to do much to help.


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## existentialist (Apr 1, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Just checked on our electric.
> Ouch.
> It will be going up from about  £175 to £250 per month.
> on an estimate of around 10,250 kWh p.a.
> ...


LED light bulbs are your friend, here. And they just get cheaper and cheaper...


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## skyscraper101 (Apr 1, 2022)

The sudden drop in temperature and outbreaks of snow in the U.K. after last week’s balmy temperatures feels like somewhat of a well timed pisstake tbh.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 1, 2022)

existentialist said:


> LED light bulbs are your friend, here. And they just get cheaper and cheaper...



So far the LAP ones from Screwfix are working well for me - both the 9 watt BC ones and the 5 watt MR16s ..
Previous ones I sourced elsewhere have not lasted ...

After watching Big Clive's video again, I think I may confect a couple of very low power ones for nocturnal bathroom visits ...


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## StoneRoad (Apr 1, 2022)

existentialist said:


> LED light bulbs are your friend, here. And they just get cheaper and cheaper...


Already fully equipped with said devices - apart from a couple of floods for the garden, which are only used very rarely.
[The last time was some years pre-covid, we were looking for a stray hedgepig, a friend dropped one off in a carrier for some TLC as he was woefully underweight after hibernating. He got out and went up the garden for a walk. Picked him up after about 15minutes ... We fed him up for a few weeks then released him in a small wood, not far from where he had been found.]


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 1, 2022)

Just got in, put the news on, wish I hadn't, an expert was suggesting if wholesale prices remain as they are, we should expect another £500 per year increase in 6 months for the average household.

Of course, if Russia stops supplying gas to Europe, wholesale prices are likely to sky rocket from their current level.


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## StoneRoad (Apr 1, 2022)

Still trying to work out what I can do to make extra savings, as we are all here 24/7.
Either wfh or retired and on fixed incomes.

Us four are already doing things like all LED lighting - well, almost all.
Will start trying to economise on car journey, shopping etc


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## High Voltage (Apr 1, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Still trying to work out what I can do to make extra savings, as we are all here 24/7.
> Either wfh or retired and on fixed incomes.
> 
> Us four are already doing things like all LED lighting - well, almost all.
> Will start trying to economise on car journey, shopping etc


Do you have a Smart Meter? if not would you consider getting something like an OWL electricity measuring device? - You don't "need" one as it's easy enough to simply look at the existing meter and time usage over a known period and factor it up

Also, get some of those plug in electricity measuring meters - they'll tell you exactly what a plug is using over a period of time

I found that understanding where the power was being used and just switching stuff off and seeing my usage reduce from a projected 5200KW / annum down to an HV projected annual usage of 2900KW (OK that's extrapolating mild weather for the year but . . . yunno, it's less) - that was great


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## existentialist (Apr 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Do you have a Smart Meter? if not would you consider getting something like an OWL electricity measuring device? - You don't "need" one as it's easy enough to simply look at the existing meter and time usage over a known period and factor it up
> 
> Also, get some of those plug in electricity measuring meters - they'll tell you exactly what a plug is using over a period of time
> 
> I found that understanding where the power was being used and just switching stuff off and seeing my usage reduce from a projected 5200KW / annum down to an HV projected annual usage of 2900KW (OK that's extrapolating mild weather for the year but . . . yunno, it's less) - that was great


It's certainly made me look a lot more askance at my heater usage...


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## two sheds (Apr 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Also, get some of those plug in electricity measuring meters - they'll tell you exactly what a plug is using over a period of time


yep useful, but you only really need one. I went round checking consumption of appliances and once you've done it once, you know.


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## Saunders (Apr 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Do you have a Smart Meter? if not would you consider getting something like an OWL electricity measuring device? - You don't "need" one as it's easy enough to simply look at the existing meter and time usage over a known period and factor it up
> 
> Also, get some of those plug in electricity measuring meters - they'll tell you exactly what a plug is using over a period of time
> 
> I found that understanding where the power was being used and just switching stuff off and seeing my usage reduce from a projected 5200KW / annum down to an HV projected annual usage of 2900KW (OK that's extrapolating mild weather for the year but . . . yunno, it's less) - that was great


I had a look at OWL meters. Is there any one you’d particularly recommend?


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## High Voltage (Apr 1, 2022)

Saunders said:


> I had a look at OWL meters. Is there any one you’d particularly recommend?


The one I've got is the "manual" one - I "think" that the sender unit that clips round the +ve wire to the main consumer unit is common - it's only the reader unit that's different. To fit the sender unit, with the provision that you've got half decent access to the consumer unit and the cables leading into it, really is a 30 second thing . . . as long as you can see 5cm / 2" of the red cable it is simplicity itself . . . and I say this as a complete DIY putz

This then sends readings to the reader unit and "programming" that really is a case of Reading The Fucking Manual (or in this case 2 x A5 pages . . . about 10 instruction lines, again, piece of piss really (this coming from someone who rarely RTFM

OR

if you've got access to your consumer unit just taking regular readings from that

What I did first of all though was to switch EVERYTHING OFF at the consumer unit for 15-20 minutes just to make sure that NO power was being consumed, it's nice to know that when everything is switched off you're not paying for next doors heated pool, for example

And from there I switched on the kitchen utilities circuit . . . just to get the fridge / freezer back on line and from there we switched on other stuff

I take a daily reading and put it into a spread sheet with associated graph so can see our energy usage going down over the month and making notes of what I've switched off. Once you start to get a hang of what's using what I made a few predictions as to what would be the following days usage assuming, for example, the dishwasher was going to be used . . . it's nice when your predictions is right

It's not exactly "fun" but it's useful


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## High Voltage (Apr 1, 2022)

OR if you get the "better" one then that looks like it exported "stuff" to an app(?) and plots your usage for you


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> OR if you get the "better" one then that looks like it exported "stuff" to an app(?) and plots your usage for you



<awaits izz popping up to say how obsessed you are>


----------



## prunus (Apr 1, 2022)

prunus said:


> Well, heat pump is in and working, it’s early days yet but so far output is 17.8kWh for 3.3kWh of electricity input, for a performance factor of 5.4 or thereabouts.  If it continues like this that’ll be a winner.



8 days in running hot water (50C) and underfloor heating (this still getting to temperature, been on for 3 days - at 19C, target 35C):

29.1kWh in, 145.3kWh out, COP/SPF 5.0


----------



## High Voltage (Apr 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> <awaits izz popping up to say how obsessed you are>


I prefer "focused"


----------



## izz (Apr 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> <awaits izz popping up to say how obsessed you are>


Thanks for the tag, obsessed isn't the fucking word frankly 😂


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 1, 2022)

Was paying 40 now at 60


----------



## extra dry (Apr 2, 2022)

14 quid to about 20.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 2, 2022)

My next bill is due mid April so I suspect that is when they will tell me what my new payments are going to be however yesterday on the new tariffs I checked at 23.30 just before going bed and I had used about £8 in gas and electric on day 1 of the new mega-tariffs


----------



## Saunders (Apr 2, 2022)

60p a day standing charge here, which I think i can manage. Don’t use much electricity so am feeling less terrified then I was a couple of days ago.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 2, 2022)

Saunders said:


> 60p a day standing charge here



That's crazy. 

Mine is 39.67p a day on electric, 25.92p a day for gas.


----------



## surreybrowncap (Apr 2, 2022)

Saunders said:


> 60p a day standing charge here, which I think i can manage. Don’t use much electricity so am feeling less terrified then I was a couple of days ago.


Still well over £200 per year and could rise in October....


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Apr 2, 2022)

I've got onto step change to reduce my payments on loans. Nothing else for it. And covid has put drunk HC's gas at a peep so I'll hopefully be saving on that too. My standing charge has gone up to 55p a day, projected annual bill from 1458 to 2026 quid a year aaahh


----------



## Saunders (Apr 2, 2022)

surreybrowncap said:


> Still well over £200 per year and could rise in October....


Thanks for that


----------



## existentialist (Apr 2, 2022)

I wonder if we're going to see a sharp increase in people bypassing their meters, as the pain intensifies? Of course, anyone who's had a smart meter installed is going to find that pretty difficult to get away with, without extreme caution.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 2, 2022)

I am using about £10.00 a week on electric and something less than that on gas. 

However I have no way it seems of knowing how much I am being charged per unit. All I know is that I now have £60.00 credit on my electric meter. It doesn't even say on the receipt how many units I have bought. Grr ..


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 3, 2022)

The People’s Price Cap
					

A woman in your area saved £££££s with anarchism today. Find out how.Dear Uncle Kropotkin,How the fuck am I going to pay my gas bill?TLDR: You’re notThe total absence of any kind of tax on th…




					freedomnews.org.uk


----------



## Chilli.s (Apr 3, 2022)

Rich people bleating about how expensive its going to be to heat really large houses. It wont be long till we hear some cunt saying how people living in small flats are actually getting off easy and how they should perhaps be supporting the large house people in some way.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> My joint electricity/gas account balance is currently showing -£108, and an estimate that I'll be at -£639 in 12 months at the new rates.



That was on 21st March, just under 2 weeks later it's now showing -£215, and an estimate that I'll be at -£707 in 12 months at the new rates.

I've no idea how the hell they have worked that out.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 3, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Rich people bleating about how expensive its going to be to heat really large houses. It wont be long till we hear some cunt saying how people living in small flats are actually getting off easy and how they should perhaps be supporting the large house people in some way.


Well my combined DD for my smallish 2 bedroom flat is going up to a staggering £55 a month (but not until May when my fixed rate ends). So I don't feel too bad about living here and not some big house at the moment.


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 3, 2022)

extra dry said:


> 14 quid to about 20.





Chilli.s said:


> Rich people bleating about how expensive its going to be to heat really large houses. It wont be long till we hear some cunt saying how people living in small flats are actually getting off easy and how they should perhaps be supporting the large house people in some way.


the squeezed five bedroom and a garage class


----------



## Sue (Apr 3, 2022)

BigMoaner said:


> the squeezed five bedroom and a garage class


Broken Britain .


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 3, 2022)

Sue said:


> Broken Britain .


(((((((((((((((Conservatory owners))))))))))))


----------



## teuchter (Apr 3, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> The People’s Price Cap
> 
> 
> A woman in your area saved £££££s with anarchism today. Find out how.Dear Uncle Kropotkin,How the fuck am I going to pay my gas bill?TLDR: You’re notThe total absence of any kind of tax on th…
> ...


That article seems to contain a certain amount of nonsense, implying that the big energy producers' increased profits won't be taxed, and also that the rises seen by consumers are entirely on account of increased profits rather than underlying energy prices.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 3, 2022)

teuchter said:


> That article seems to contain a certain amount of nonsense, implying that the big energy producers' increased profits won't be taxed, and also that the rises seen by consumers are entirely on account of increased profits rather than underlying energy prices.


You can be sure that the profits of the energy companies will not be taxed anywhere near as hard as the salaries of those paying their utility bills...


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 4, 2022)

It's possible for the energy companies to absorb some of the extra cost and still make the same profit in £££'s that they were making before however received wisdom in the boardroom is that profit in %'s is more important, an attitude that isn't going to change without being forced.
Mass foot dragging is a strategy that's doomed though. To do it you need to have the cash to hand to pay the bill when your timewasting options run out. Doable maybe in summer but come winter you get a massive bill which you will have to find the money for from somewhere. DD's are essentially an interest free loan that enables people to smooth the cost out over the year repaying big bills from last winter in the summer months and running up credit for the next one.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 4, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> It's possible for the energy companies to absorb some of the extra cost and still make the same profit in £££'s that they were making before however received wisdom in the boardroom is that profit in %'s is more important, an attitude that isn't oing to change without being forced.
> Mass foot dragging is a strategy that's doomed though. To do it you need to have the cash to hand to pay the bill when your timewasting options run out. Doable maybe in summer but come winter you get a massive bill which you will have to find the money for from somewhere. DD's are essentially an interest free loan that enables people to smooth the cost out over the year repaying big bills from last winter in the summer months and running up credit for the next one.


True, but quite often, it feels like we're making the loan to the power company...


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 4, 2022)

existentialist said:


> True, but quite often, it feels like we're making the loan to the power company...


That's one problem that would actually be fairly easy to solve make it mandatory that any balance over a given figure (£250 say) gets automatically returned. Sadly no appetite for that either.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2022)

existentialist said:


> True, but quite often, it feels like we're making the loan to the power company...



Certainly is in my case.


----------



## prunus (Apr 4, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Certainly is in my case.



Well I’m balancing some of you out -£700-odd balance at the moment 🤣


----------



## teuchter (Apr 4, 2022)

existentialist said:


> You can be sure that the profits of the energy companies will not be taxed anywhere near as hard as the salaries of those paying their utility bills...


That may or may not be a meaningful comparison to make, but it's got nothing to do with the question of whether what is written in that article is nonsense.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 4, 2022)

teuchter said:


> That may or may not be a meaningful comparison to make, but it's got nothing to do with the question of whether what is written in that article is nonsense.


Your heart is not really in it at the moment is it?


----------



## existentialist (Apr 4, 2022)

teuchter said:


> That may or may not be a meaningful comparison to make, but it's got nothing to do with the question of whether what is written in that article is nonsense.


You're absolutely right, particularly since I was not attempting to suggest that what is written in that article is nonsense.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That was on 21st March, just under 2 weeks later it's now showing -£215, and an estimate that I'll be at -£707 in 12 months at the new rates.
> 
> I've no idea how the hell they have worked that out.



24 hours later, the estimate is up another £64 to -£771 in 12 months!

If I am using £64 a day, I'll be owing £23,360 in a year.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 4, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> 24 hours later, the estimate is up another £64 to -£771 in 12 months!
> 
> If I am using £64 a day, I'll be owing £23,360 in a year.


you growing weed or something?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> you growing weed or something?



No, but I think someone is smoking it at OVO.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 4, 2022)

Just been and checked my smart meter (a double edged sword if ever there was) current consumption today at 1300 is £2.48 gas and £1.91 electric. Isolation is over so Mrs Q is back at school (albeit for the last week) so I have changed the off time on the CH back from 1100 to 0830. I have had to turn the radiator valve in Bedroom 3 back up again now that Youngest Q is home from Uni for the Spring Break.
She was moaning it was a bit cold this am so I told her when she is on a £100K a year she can pay her old Dad's gas bill as well as her own. In the meantime she is a fit 19 year old so find a temporary job, a rich boyfriend or put a top on. They're all equally as good as far as I'm concerned. After a bit more moaning she has turned her laptop off and gone out to hang out with the Guys (her pre-Uni friends).
That is also good as far as I'm concerned since whilst I'm sure they're probably spending money it's not mine.


----------



## pbsmooth (Apr 4, 2022)

our annual gas + elec from british gas is estimated to be an extra £1000 next year. from 1600 to 2600.


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 4, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> That's one problem that would actually be fairly easy to solve make it mandatory that any balance over a given figure (£250 say) gets automatically returned. Sadly no appetite for that either.


Utility warehouse review your account each year and automatically refund any balance on your account.


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 4, 2022)

I put on an extra layer today and I've been round turning off lights, as well as turning down TRVs. We had a fire in the log-burner last night, although we had a "Sunday Dinner" with all the trimmings.


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 4, 2022)

If the price of electricity has gone up how come the feed in tariff for solar panels hasn't gone up?


----------



## nottsgirl (Apr 4, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> It's possible for the energy companies to absorb some of the extra cost and still make the same profit in £££'s that they were making before however received wisdom in the boardroom is that profit in %'s is more important, an attitude that isn't going to change without being forced.
> Mass foot dragging is a strategy that's doomed though. To do it you need to have the cash to hand to pay the bill when your timewasting options run out. Doable maybe in summer but come winter you get a massive bill which you will have to find the money for from somewhere. DD's are essentially an interest free loan that enables people to smooth the cost out over the year repaying big bills from last winter in the summer months and running up credit for the next one.


Ha! Interest free loan from me to the energy company maybe. I don’t know who your supplier is who lets you run up a debit balance.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 4, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> If the price of electricity has gone up how come the feed in tariff for solar panels hasn't gone up?


I was wondering about this. But it looks like some companies are offering to buy energy at prices related to the wholesale prices:









						Introducing Outgoing Octopus: The UK's first smart export tariff
					

Perfect for homes with solar panels, battery storage, or any other way of sharing energy back to the grid.




					octopus.energy
				




I assume anyone on the FIT schemes can decide to abandon them and go with something like this instead?


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 4, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> Ha! Interest free loan from me to the energy company maybe. I don’t know who your supplier is who lets you run up a debit balance.


British Gas that well known  bastion of righteous social justice.
Have you seriously never had a bill on which you have a negative amount?


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 4, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I was wondering about this. But it looks like some companies are offering to buy energy at prices related to the wholesale prices:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Might be a bit better but when electric has gone from around 15p per kWH to 30p per kWh then the FIT should go up to 10p per kWh not 7.5p.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 4, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Might be a bit better but when electric has gone from around 15p per kWH to 30p per kWh then the FIT should go up to 10p per kWh not 7.5p.


That's one of two options they offer. The other is they'll pay you the day ahead wholesale price which I think means about £1 right now, but of course you take the risk of it dropping in the future.


----------



## prunus (Apr 4, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> Ha! Interest free loan from me to the energy company maybe. I don’t know who your supplier is who lets you run up a debit balance.



I run a negative balance most of the time. I’m at over -£700 at the moment.  I adjust my direct debit amount whenever it looks like I’m going positive, as I have no desire to lend money to the energy companies at 0%.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 5, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> It's possible for the energy companies to absorb some of the extra cost and still make the same profit in £££'s that they were making before however received wisdom in the boardroom is that profit in %'s is more important, an attitude that isn't going to change without being forced.
> Mass foot dragging is a strategy that's doomed though. To do it you need to have the cash to hand to pay the bill when your timewasting options run out. Doable maybe in summer but come winter you get a massive bill which you will have to find the money for from somewhere. DD's are essentially an interest free loan that enables people to smooth the cost out over the year repaying big bills from last winter in the summer months and running up credit for the next one.



Aren't there laws that oblige the CEOs of companies to optimise results for their shareholders as far as they can within the law? At least in the US, probably the same in the UK.

"Within the law" can be widely interpreted, and doesn't justify, say, dumping toxic waste in a local river just because it would save you money and it's allowed, because the CEOs could argue that it wasn't really in the interests of their shareholders, but if the govt says "you can increase the amount people pay by this amount," then it'd be difficult for any CEO to argue against it within the law.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 5, 2022)

scifisam said:


> Aren't there laws that oblige the CEOs of companies to optimise results for their shareholders as far as they can within the law? At least in the US, probably the same in the UK.
> 
> "Within the law" can be widely interpreted, and doesn't justify, say, dumping toxic waste in a local river just because it would save you money and it's allowed, because the CEOs could argue that it wasn't really in the interests of their shareholders, but if the govt says "you can increase the amount people pay by this amount," then it'd be difficult for any CEO to argue against it within the law.


Nah this is complete bollocks routinely dragged out by (especially) American companies trying to weasel out of giving payrises, I worked for one for 25 years. It's one of those urban (not U75 obvs) myths that they like to try and push.
There was a legal case in the US that went all the way to the Supreme Court (Hobby Lobby I think) where some shareholders had sued over lack of dividends and the Supreme Court ruled they definitely don't have to maximise shareholder value.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 5, 2022)

MPs have claimed £420,000 on expenses for their energy bills
					

Liz Truss and Matt Hancock are among the MPs who have charged energy bills to the public purse in the last three years




					www.opendemocracy.net


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 5, 2022)

prunus said:


> I run a negative balance most of the time. I’m at over -£700 at the moment.  I adjust my direct debit amount whenever it looks like I’m going positive, as I have no desire to lend money to the energy companies at 0%.


Well you've motivated me to take a look at mine and my last 12 Gas Bills are evenly split  with 6 showing  a credit balance and 6 a debit balance. The largest credit was £224.30 and the largest debit was £256.82. Not surprisingly  the biggest debits are in Winter and the biggest credits are in Summer
Of my last 12 electric bills 9 are in credit with the largest credit being £47.45 and the largest debit being £41.19 Clearly my electricity usage is a lot more even throughout the year than my gas usage. 
For what it's worth I currently pay £95 per month for electric and £67 for gas.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 6, 2022)

Well British Gas have sent me an extortion demand (2 actually)

Electric is going up from £94.56 to £115.01 and Gas is going up from £67.57 to £94.63. so a 21% increase in electric and a 40% increase in gas. On the bright side I have cancelled my Sky subscription I barely used it these days and it has saved me a tenner more per month than the rise in energy has cost me. 
I suspect that Sky are going to be losing a lot of other customers over the next few months.


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 6, 2022)

I must admit that I'm looking at the amount we pay for Sky in a similar way. 
We did cut down significantly a few years ago, but the way the channel packages are bundled really doesn't do our interests any favours.
The only saving I suppose you could say we are making is that we've dumped the "cinema entertainment" channels, but we didn't have the "sports" ones anyway ...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 6, 2022)

A lot of channels on the Sky platform are 'free to air' anyway, and will continue to work on a Sky box if you cancel the subscription.

Check out the Freesat channel listings HERE, any of those channels on your Sky box are 'free to air', and will remain available.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> I must admit that I'm looking at the amount we pay for Sky in a similar way.
> We did cut down significantly a few years ago, but the way the channel packages are bundled really doesn't do our interests any favours.
> The only saving I suppose you could say we are making is that we've dumped the "cinema entertainment" channels, but we didn't have the "sports" ones anyway ...


I found it almost impossible to cancel a Sky account. In the end, I just cancelled the direct debit, then when they threatened me over the phone, I told them I'd see them in court. That shut the fuckers up.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 6, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I found it almost impossible to cancel a Sky account. In the end, I just cancelled the direct debit, then when they threatened me over the phone, I told them I'd see them in court. That shut the fuckers up.


I had no problems cancelling it but I had to be firm with them since they seriously tried to get me to change my mind. They've bombarded me with frigging emails ever since though urging me to change my mind.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 6, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I had no problems cancelling it but I had to be firm with them since they seriously tried to get me to change my mind. They've bombarded me with frigging emails ever since though urging me to change my mind.


Oh, they just put me through phone menu hell, then the call would get cut off. I can't help but wonder if at least part of that is deliberate.


----------



## MBV (Apr 6, 2022)

I need to ditch Prime as I'm not getting value from it. Not a lot of money per month but it all helps.


----------



## Elpenor (Apr 6, 2022)

I only get prime during the months they’ve got rugby on - which handily is the runup to Christmas. Otherwise I’m happy to wait a few extra days for things to arrive.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 6, 2022)

MBV said:


> I need to ditch Prime as I'm not getting value from it. Not a lot of money per month but it all helps.



Had BFI player for ages, was a bit underwhelming tbh so not used it for ages. Might consider scrapping Prime altogether to, most of the decent stuff is paid anyway.


----------



## panpete (Apr 6, 2022)

My DD is still the same but I think Octopus are taking money out of my credit, a few hundred to cover things like this.
I like octopus energy.


----------



## Leafster (Apr 7, 2022)

Bulb have just confirmed my new direct debit. It's going up from £117 (gas and electricity) to £162. That's a 38% increase. The old DD was more or less split 50:50 between gas and electricity but the new one suggests an increase of 54% for gas and a 23% increase for electricity.


----------



## panpete (Apr 7, 2022)

Regarding my post above, I am not sure octopus are taking money out of my credit, I confess I don't look at it, how come they are not changing my direct debit, as energy has gone up?


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 7, 2022)

I'll have to raise my monthly payment soon - the next bill will take me down to £50 credit ...


----------



## rubbershoes (Apr 7, 2022)

My son went on a school trip to Snowdon last week. I went into his room after two days to retrieve all the dirty crockery etc and found he'd left his light on.


----------



## Storm Fox (Apr 7, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> My son went on a school trip to Snowdon last week. I went into his room after two days to retrieve all the dirty crockery etc and found he'd left his light on.


It shouldn't cost a lot. Assuming it is an energy saving bulb. So say 10W then it would take 100 hours to use 1kWh e.g. 30p
Even it was a 60W bulb it would cost 87p for 2 days use.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 7, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> My son went on a school trip to Snowdon last week. I went into his room after two days to retrieve all the dirty crockery etc and found he'd left his light on.


I'd have had a moral struggle with myself over whether to remove the light bulb or not...


----------



## existentialist (Apr 7, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> It shouldn't cost a lot. Assuming it is an energy saving bulb. So say 10W then it would take 100 hours to use 1kWh e.g. 30p
> Even it was a 60W bulb it would cost 87p for 2 days use.


Yeah, but the behaviour indicates an attitude. If he's leaving lights on, what else is he ignoring?


----------



## cybershot (Apr 7, 2022)

This may be useful information to some, or at least useful to pass on:

Heat the human, not the home


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 7, 2022)

rubbershoes.

put in the smallest LED that will fit

and turn down & lock the TRV at a lower setting


----------



## Storm Fox (Apr 7, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Yeah, but the behaviour indicates an attitude. If he's leaving lights on, what else is he ignoring?


Taking out his dirty plates and cutlery.


----------



## rubbershoes (Apr 7, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> Taking out his dirty plates and cutlery.



Standard behaviour for a 15 year old boy


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 7, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> Standard behaviour for a 15 year old boy



He's probably gearing up to become a football hooligan, may as well cut off his goolies now.


----------



## contadino (Apr 7, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> My son went on a school trip to Snowdon last week. I went into his room after two days to retrieve all the dirty crockery etc and found he'd left his light on.


Change the locks before he gets back. You could take the soft option and put his room on a timer controlled spur, or face reality and lock him out. He'll be a better man for it.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 10, 2022)

Anybody doing this? Or is it fruitless?


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 10, 2022)

I'll have a spy on "Gridwatch" to see how put the "demand" wavers at zero hour.

By that time of the day, this household is almost zero use anyway.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 10, 2022)

Sounds utterly pointless.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 10, 2022)

contadino said:


> Change the locks before he gets back. You could take the soft option and put his room on a timer controlled spur, or face reality and lock him out. He'll be a better man for it.



depends if there's time to move house and not leave a forwarding address with the neighbours before he gets back


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 10, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> Anybody doing this? Or is it fruitless?




I'll will do this. 

But, then I was going to be sound asleep by 10pm anyway.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 10, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I'll will do this.
> 
> But, then I was going to be sound asleep by 10pm anyway.


I'm going to do it, too. "OK, Google, turn off everything"

(I will be in the pub)

ETA: assuming I can get there. Last time I was there, I got pushed over by a jealous pisshead, and have pulled various important muscles in my back.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 10, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I'm going to do it, too. "OK, Google, turn off everything"


You are going to tell google to turn off the rest of world, how have you gained such power?


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 10, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> You are going to tell google to turn off the rest of world, how have you gained such power?


Could you make sure the power doesn't come back on in Russia.


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 10, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Could you make sure the power doesn't come back on in Russia.


Maybe the kremlin or even just putin's bunker  ?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 11, 2022)

"I park somewhere cheap then use my electric bike"


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 11, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I'd have had a moral struggle with myself over whether to remove the light bulb or not...


Youngest Q's bedroom has a smart bulb that can be controlled via Alexa or the Phone app. In one of life's many little funny ironies she took her Echo Spot to Uni with her and now when she's at home she actually has to resort to getting up and turning the light on and off with the switch.


----------



## Cat Fan (Apr 11, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> "I park somewhere cheap then use my electric bike"



When she says 6 people in her house have separate Amazon prime subscriptions that was a real face palm moment. That's at least £400 a year wasted. But better to just cancel all 6 in my opinion.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 11, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> When she says 6 people in her house have separate Amazon prime subscriptions that was a real face palm moment. That's at least £400 a year wasted. But better to just cancel all 6 in my opinion.


I did wonder that, but she doesn't say 'household' she says family. The woman before her said 'house', Legitimately, several family members can hold the same prime account without being under the same roof. Not sure if this is what she was saying of course, and if she was the item certainly didn't make that clear.

It's a pretty shitty item to be honest. Like the sort of crap I used to get asked to put together at ITV for this sort of thing. Always asking for lists of tips and top tip countdowns. . . what else can you put in apart from 'scrimp and save'? Basically the answer apart from eco shower heads (hasn't everyone ditched the 60w bulbs??) is that something is seriously wrong if it has become normal for everyone to buy from the reduced section? We can't all do it.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 11, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> When she says 6 people in her house have separate Amazon prime subscriptions that was a real face palm moment. That's at least £400 a year wasted. But better to just cancel all 6 in my opinion.


My personal favourite was saving on boiling water by boiling water once and keeping it in a flask. That is so dumb. Boiling one cups worth is not the same price as boiling a days worth of water (unless she is doing it in the oven???). Just boil what you need idiot.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 11, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> My personal favourite was saving on boiling water by boiling water once and keeping it in a flask. That is so dumb. Boiling one cups worth is not the same price as boiling a days worth of water (unless she is doing it in the oven???). Just boil what you need idiot.


I think there are a number of reasons that her strategy could make sense. If the temperature of the water from the flask is sufficient for her needs, and she always uses it all, then she probably does save energy compared to boiling multiple small volumes of water.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 11, 2022)

not if she wants a cup of tea she won't


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> not if she wants a cup of tea she won't


If there was an instant tea where you just add water you could. 

Applies to dragons den.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 11, 2022)

See if you drink green or white tea you'd be laughing. Brew it several times and it often needs cooler water.

Do a nice brown tea for brekkie, a green for morning break and a white tea for the afternoon.


----------



## Cat Fan (Apr 11, 2022)

Yes, it's a false economy to boil a whole flask imo.

*Hiring a Santander Cycle costs £2 for unlimited journeys up to 30 minutes, within a 24 hour period. For journeys longer than 30 minutes, you pay £2 for each additional 30 minutes.*

Another false economy maybe, could be cheaper to take the bus, walk or buy a cheap second hand bike.


----------



## platinumsage (Apr 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> not if she wants a cup of tea she won't



She's adding lashings of shaken oat milk so I don't think she cares too much about those particular subtle flavors of her teabags that would be affected by a slightly sub-optimal water temperature.


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 11, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> Yes, it's a false economy to boil a whole flask imo.
> 
> *Hiring a Santander Cycle costs £2 for unlimited journeys up to 30 minutes, within a 24 hour period. For journeys longer than 30 minutes, you pay £2 for each additional 30 minutes.*
> 
> Another false economy maybe, could be cheaper to take the bus, walk or buy a cheap second hand bike.


Can't you ride it for 29 minutes, have a break and carry on for another 29 minutes? As you can have unlimited 30 min rides in a day.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 11, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> My personal favourite was saving on boiling water by boiling water once and keeping it in a flask. That is so dumb. Boiling one cups worth is not the same price as boiling a days worth of water (unless she is doing it in the oven???). Just boil what you need idiot.


It takes a given amount of energy to heat a given amount of water to a given temperature regardless of whether you do it in one go or several smaller ones. Her idea might save a TINY amount of electric since it's hard to judge exactly how much water you need for a cup so a little gets wasted each time. But if your budget is so tight that these savings are worth having it probably makes more sense just to drink fewer cups of tea.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 11, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Can't you ride it for 29 minutes, have a break and carry on for another 29 minutes? As you can have unlimited 30 min rides in a day.


Indeed you can. You don't need to have a break, just dock it and then take another one straight out.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 11, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> It takes a given amount of energy to heat a given amount of water to a given temperature regardless of whether you do it in one go or several smaller ones.


No it doesn't.


----------



## contadino (Apr 11, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> It takes a given amount of energy to heat a given amount of water to a given temperature regardless of whether you do it in one go or several smaller ones. Her idea might save a TINY amount of electric since it's hard to judge exactly how much water you need for a cup so a little gets wasted each time.


And it loses heat over time (less than 100% insulation) and each time the storage container is opened.

It's a dumb idea. I have a good thermos but on a cold day, the 3rd cup is lukewarm.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 11, 2022)

teuchter said:


> No it doesn't.


physics works differently in teuchterworld then?


----------



## bluescreen (Apr 11, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> physics works differently in teuchterworld then?


Isn't it a question of taking into account that you also have to heat the vessel (kettle, saucepan) each time you heat 1 x water, but if you heat X x water you still only have to heat the vessel once?  

not that it amounts to a lot, but I'm with the drink cold water brigade.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 11, 2022)

bluescreen said:


> Isn't it a question of taking into account that you also have to heat the vessel (kettle, saucepan) each time you heat 1 x water, but if you heat X x water you still only have to heat the vessel once?
> 
> not that it amounts to a lot, but I'm with the drink cold water brigade.


Obviously the element will take time to reach its maximum operating temperature but surely heat will start transferring straightaway just at a slower rate. You could also argue that if you boil a little each time but leave the excess in the kettle then you might use less by heating just what you need since the water left in the kettle will have a higher start temperature than a fresh load from the tap. Water heats up fast but cools down very slowly
But we're talking lab conditions here, if money is so tight that you have to consider the temperature of each cc of water you drink then drink it cold.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 11, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> It takes a given amount of energy to heat a given amount of water to a given temperature regardless of whether you do it in one go or several smaller ones.


Er, that's exactly what I said isn't it? 




MickiQ said:


> Her idea might save a TINY amount of electric since it's hard to judge exactly how much water you need for a cup so a little gets wasted each time.


Not the way I do it, my kettle has a measure and my cup is always the same size, but ok.




MickiQ said:


> But if your budget is so tight that these savings are worth having it probably makes more sense just to drink fewer cups of tea.


Agreed.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 11, 2022)

What would be worth discussing is whether it's better to leave an immersion heater on with thermostat, or only switch it on when you need it. I always thought switch it on and off but it depends on how often you heat it up and how good your insulation is. 

As I recall evaporating off any moisture in the insulation every time can make it more efficient to leave it at temperature.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 11, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> physics works differently in teuchterworld then?


In teuchterworld we don't assume a perfectly insulated heating vessel, or instantaneous heat transfer.

In my observation neither of these things are available in most people's kitchens.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 11, 2022)

It's shocking how easy it was for so many people to skip basic science at school.
Newton and Joule must be permanently spinning ...
No wonder people get stuck when they have to contend with DNA and viruses.

Mastering calorimetry was pivotal in my understanding of the world.
I shudder to imagine what it must be like not having that.
No need for quantum mechanics ...

M C Theta=VIT = MGH..

On a fairly regular basis I would find myself doing basic physics as I hauled myself up the big hill every morning to where I work.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 11, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> It's shocking how easy it was for so many people to *skip basic science at school*.
> Newton and Joule *must be permanently spinning* ...


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 11, 2022)

2hats said:


>


poetic licence


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 11, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Newton and Joule must be permanently spinning ...


All that friction, no wonder the world is warming.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 14, 2022)

Got my prepayment meters taken out yesterday and replaced with credit meters. This is such a stress relief.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 14, 2022)

I said, I'm on emergency credit. I am choosing between the nebuliser and keeping the fridge on (that has meds in it). They ummed a bit and then sent someone around in three hours. Wished me all the best.  This is the company that took over from N Power (who are all cunts).


----------



## spanglechick (Apr 14, 2022)

After all the talk of OWL meters and such, I checked my electric meter at a 24 hour interval yesterday.  3.1 units.  

For reference - live alone, was home all day.  Used the kettle and toaster once, and hob twice. Ran the washing machine.  Watched telly. Then background is fridgefreezer, lights on as needed.  Phone chargers, Wi-Fi plugs, Wi-Fi itself.  
Heating and hot water are gas.


----------



## High Voltage (Apr 14, 2022)

Not disputing this in any way and that sounds about right tbh I just wish I could figure out where our energy usage is going 

I'm getting there but still seem to have two or three KWh's to account for


----------



## Leafster (Apr 14, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Not disputing this in any way and that sounds about right tbh I just wish I could figure out where our energy usage is going
> 
> I'm getting there but still seem to have two or three KWh's to account for


That reminds me I need to ask my neighbour a little more about their energy consumption. 

Last weekend they mentioned they pay around £100 more a month than I do! 

Their house was originally the same as mine but I have an extension (so one extra room). They have cavity wall insulation but I don't.

There's two of them and they're retired so are at home as much as me. I have more electrical gadgets than they do and have my office equipment running all day. 

I'm wondering where their extra usage is; gas or electricity or both?


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 14, 2022)

Having had a major look at our usage / wastage [without going down to specific appliances ] ...

"Currently" our household's daily electric usage - averaged over several days - is about half the projected amount on the "new" all-renewable/green tariff.
Varies somewhat, depending on whether we've been doing laundry, major oven cooking or work outside with power tools.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 14, 2022)

Leafster said:


> That reminds me I need to ask my neighbour a little more about their energy consumption.
> 
> Last weekend they mentioned they pay around £100 more a month than I do!
> 
> ...


When I hear of a discrepancy like this it's usually the heating.


----------



## Saunders (Apr 14, 2022)

Im wondering if it’s the fridge ( 15+ years old) and the chest freezer that are using a lot here.


----------



## donkyboy (Apr 14, 2022)

wonder what all those cunts who voted Tory think now? at least with Labour you would have got a windfall tax to soften the blow.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 14, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> wonder what all those cunts who voted Tory think now? at least with Labour you would have got a windfall tax to soften the blow.


Red wall.lot will be too busy celebrating Patel's latest hate filled plan . The solvent ones like my dad was, won't give a flying fuck.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 15, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> My personal favourite was saving on boiling water by boiling water once and keeping it in a flask. That is so dumb. Boiling one cups worth is not the same price as boiling a days worth of water (unless she is doing it in the oven???). Just boil what you need idiot.



I just boil a couple of gallons on the stove once a week and then freeze it.


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 15, 2022)

Has anyone received  the £150 rebate  yet?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 15, 2022)

BigMoaner said:


> Has anyone received  £150 rebate  yet?



It's a £150 rebate on the council tax due from this month, and then a £200 'loan' on electricity bills coming from October.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 15, 2022)

BigMoaner said:


> Has anyone received  £150 rebate  yet?



Yeah I got mine but it all went on vet's bills for the unicorn.


----------



## Ms T (Apr 15, 2022)

To add to the woes, the rise in NI has also kicked in.


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 15, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's a £150 rebate on the council tax due from this month, and then a £200 'loan' on electricity bills coming from October.






> Claims for the rebate can be processed up until 30 September 2022.



when i called they told me any time between now and 6 months!!


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## two sheds (Apr 15, 2022)

From that link: 

"If you live in an eligible property and you pay your council tax by direct debit, your local council will make the payment directly to your bank account, starting from April 2022. You do not need to do anything in the meantime.

If you live in an eligible property and you do not pay your council tax by direct debit, your local council will contact you from April to arrange a method for paying the rebate. You do not need to do anything in the meantime."


----------



## Elpenor (Apr 15, 2022)

My council have said late April / early May if I pay by direct debit (which I am now). 

I’m moving house later on this year all being well so expect I’ll have to pay some of it back when I get the final bill. Getting two £150 rebates sounds just a bit too good to be true


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 15, 2022)

My council said I'd get the rebate when the council and government had worked out how to implement it.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 15, 2022)

Oh god, I've just realised my boiler has been left on some daft water pre heat setting. . . I assume the engineer did that last time he was around so it's been like it since May. Arrh. It doesn't even make that much difference. . . . . apart from pointlessly heating up water every 90 minutes.


----------



## Chz (Apr 15, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Oh god, I've just realised my boiler has been left on some daft water pre heat setting. . . I assume the engineer did that last time he was around so it's been like it since May. Arrh. It doesn't even make that much difference. . . . . apart from pointlessly heating up water every 90 minutes.


Yeah I never really thought it was worth wasting gas just to get hot water 15 seconds faster. I'm not that impatient!


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 15, 2022)

That’s the point starting from , could get it in sept


----------



## contadino (Apr 15, 2022)

I'm now having to actively avoid my neighbour because all he talks about is his £450/month energy bill. He's obsessed and just moans about his wife and teenage lad leaving whatever appliance on. There's only so much "Don't fret, it's lighter in the evening now" or "Yes, prices are bound to fall soon. Defo." that you can spout...


----------



## High Voltage (Apr 15, 2022)

Yeah, sorry about that


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 15, 2022)

My heat bill just went up 20%.  They don't even give you any warning.  Electric up, internet up, gasoline up, food up, property tax doubled, etc.  Everything is going up but my paycheck.


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 15, 2022)

Ah so now it’s changed to “from” April


----------



## MrCurry (Apr 16, 2022)

This list of energy saving tips comes from my friendly local electricity supplier. A lot of them are kind of obvious of course, but the odd one of two might help someone a little:

1) Find out how you are using electricity so it is easier to save in the right place.  You can, for example, measure yourself with the help of various simple electricity meters for household use. 
2) If you have older electronics, there is a risk that they use a lot of electricity in standby mode.  Then it is better to turn off the switch completely.  With socket strips with switches, you can switch off several gadgets at the same time.
 3) A plasma TV can draw 2-3 times more power than the corresponding flat screen TV with other technology.  Of course, the larger the TV, the more electricity it draws.
4) Turn off lights in rooms where no one is and switch to LED lights.  An LED lamp consumes 80 percent less electricity and lasts 10-20 times longer than an old fashioned light bulb.  Calculate for yourself how much electricity you can save (konsumentguiden.se)
5)  Avoid running half-full washing machines.  Choose as low a temperature as possible and use any saving programs.
6) If you have the opportunity, dry your laundry on a clothesline or a drying rack.  If you choose to use a tumble dryer, first spin as much as possible to reduce the amount of water to be dried from the clothes.
7) Check the energy label when you buy new white goods and electronics.  It usually pays off in the long run to invest in the energy-efficient alternatives.
8) Keep the correct temperature in the fridge (+ 6 °) and the freezer (-18 °).  Remember to place them so that the air can circulate around and vacuum the back regularly.  Also defrost the freezer at least once every couple of months and make sure that doors and lids close tightly.
9) If you are going to thaw frozen food, you can do it in the fridge and use the cold that is in the food.  Also allow hot food to cool before setting it in the refrigerator.
10) When cooking on the stove, it is good to use lids on the pots.  Also make sure that your pots are not uneven at the bottom, so they get good contact with the plate and the cooking is both faster and uses less electricity.  To boil water, the kettle is an energy-efficient alternative.
11) Run the dishwasher when it is full and use the energy saving program.  Also remember that you do not have to rinse the dishes with hot water before you run them in the dishwasher, just scrape down any leftover food in the compost.
12) Hot summers have meant that many have acquired air conditioning.  You can reduce your cooling needs by ventilating at night and keeping it closed and down during the day.  Awnings on sunny windows can also reduce the need for cooling.
13)  Electric Underfloor heating in bathrooms should be seen as comfort that costs extra.  With underfloor heating, do not lay on carpets as they prevent the heat from entering the room.
14) Perhaps the easiest way to save energy is to lower the indoor temperature durijg months when the heating is on.  You save about 5% of the energy used for heating for each degree you lower.
13) Feel free to lower the temperature in spaces that do not have to be as hot, such as the garage, basement, laundry room or storage room.  If you have a timer on the system, it is good to lower the indoor temperature when you are asleep, at work or away from home.
14) Reduce the electricity used for hot water by showering for a shorter time.  Also feel free to change to low-flow mixer taps and shower nozzles.  Showering is more energy efficient than bathing.
15) Old and worn sealing strips around windows and doors can give drafts.  Reduce electricity consumption and improve comfort by changing moldings.  When you ventilate your apartment by opening windows, you should do it for a short time with a transverse draft, so that the air is replaced quickly without unnecessary heat leaking out.
16) If you place large furniture or heavy curtains in front of radiators, the heat is prevented from spreading in the room.  Keep the radiators free and airy and you will have a more pleasant indoor climate.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 16, 2022)

17) Riot


----------



## Ranbay (Apr 16, 2022)

18) Move


----------



## High Voltage (Apr 16, 2022)

Prefer 17) tbh


----------



## Micky D (Apr 16, 2022)

We need to get rid of net zero frack for gas in fact do anything and everything in order to ratchet prices downwards otherwise people this winter ( pensioners ) will die of cold - in 2022 - in Britain .
Screw the green agenda lets go back to common sense


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 16, 2022)




----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 16, 2022)

Micky D said:


> We need to get rid of net zero frack for gas in fact do anything and everything in order to ratchet prices downwards otherwise people this winter ( pensioners ) will die of cold - in 2022 - in Britain .
> Screw the green agenda lets go back to common sense



Frack off.


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 16, 2022)

Micky D said:


> We need to get rid of net zero frack for gas in fact do anything and everything in order to ratchet prices downwards otherwise people this winter ( pensioners ) will die of cold - in 2022 - in Britain .
> Screw the green agenda lets go back to common sense


It ain't the Green Agenda at fault ...

I would say that it is more the profiteering from energy companies because of inelastic demand, plus the geopolitical nightmare ...


----------



## Micky D (Apr 16, 2022)

Net Zero - green taxes / subsidies have ratcheted peoples energy bills upwards . Its a fact but we dont have to adhere to this policy . We can vote for  something else


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 16, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Net Zero - green taxes / subsidies have ratcheted peoples energy bills upwards . Its a fact but we dont have to adhere to this policy . We can vote for  something else



It's the massive increase in wholesale gas prices that has ratcheted up bills, you uneducated potato.


----------



## Storm Fox (Apr 16, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Net Zero - green taxes / subsidies have ratcheted peoples energy bills upwards . Its a fact but we dont have to adhere to this policy . We can vote for  something else


So you're happy for your kids and grandkids to live in and increasing uninhabitable planet, because at the moment governments are too invested in fossil fuels to subsidence green alternatives and improving insulation in the house stock. Cool.


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 16, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's the massive increase in wholesale gas prices that has ratcheted up bills, you uneducated potato.
> 
> View attachment 318780



Agreed.

But I don't see ANY sign of 'em going down to match the reductions, do you ?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 16, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Agreed.
> 
> But I don't see ANY sign of 'em going down to match the reductions, do you ?



The price is still around three times what it was a year ago, besides the price cap is only changed every six months, and based on the average of six months before the figure is decided upon.


----------



## Elpenor (Apr 16, 2022)

Micky D said:


> We need to get rid of net zero frack for gas in fact do anything and everything in order to ratchet prices downwards otherwise people this winter ( pensioners ) will die of cold - in 2022 - in Britain .
> Screw the green agenda lets go back to common sense


Nice to see Steve Baker posting


----------



## teuchter (Apr 16, 2022)

Someone do some decent quality responses to this poster please. Either that or ignore them. If you just do rubbish replies then they get what they want, whether they are trolling or serious.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 16, 2022)

.


----------



## High Voltage (Apr 16, 2022)

I have neither children nor grand children and I am thinking about "looking to the future"


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 16, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Someone do some decent quality responses to this poster please. Either that or ignore them. If you just do rubbish replies then they get what they want, whether they are trolling or serious.



Another pointless post, from one of urban's most pointless posters.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 16, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Another pointless post, from one of urban's most pointless posters.


My advice applies to responses to my posts too.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 16, 2022)

teuchter said:


> My advice applies to responses to my posts too.



I would refer you to my last response.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 16, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> 18) Move



Where to? The EU? Caribbean? 

Takes resources and skills people don’t have especially now we voted Leave.



Micky D said:


> Net Zero - green taxes / subsidies have ratcheted peoples energy bills upwards . Its a fact but we dont have to adhere to this policy . We can vote for  something else



You mean the green subsidies that have been massively cut since 2010? Those ones?

Lack of gas storage and massive fluctuations in wholesale price have caused the issue. About the only thing keep power actually lit is renewables and the dirty emergency gas stations that the government haven’t been spending money to replace to improve supply


----------



## Micky D (Apr 16, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Where to? The EU? Caribbean?
> 
> Takes resources and skills people don’t have especially now we voted Leave.
> 
> ...


Fossil fuels are what keeps the lights on , not the unreliables of solar / wind


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 16, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Fossil fuels are what keeps the lights on , not the unreliables of solar / wind



Because we’ve not built enough of the fucking things and now it’s 20 degrees on New Year’s Day.

This is entirely a gas issue and a problem the governments given us


----------



## Storm Fox (Apr 16, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Fossil fuels are what keeps the lights on , not the unreliables of solar / wind


So what is your solution for future generations, or is your solution to just fuck them over?


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 16, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Fossil fuels are what keeps the lights on , not the unreliables of solar / wind


Well your lights are on, but nobody's home.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 16, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Fossil fuels are what keeps the lights on , not the unreliables of solar / wind



If anyone ever offers you a penny for your thoughts, you should sell.


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 16, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Fossil fuels are what keeps the lights on , not the unreliables of solar / wind


Have a look at "Gridwatch" - but not just once or twice.
Really study how the various supply sectors respond to the demands of the grid, depending on what's synchronised and how the weather is behaving. Watch how the sources interplay ...

FYI it takes several hours to "heat up" the boilers at a fossil fuel powered plant, or you are using up a lot of fuel to keep them 'nearly' ready to generate. Planning for what is needed [as in 'for the next five minutes' as well as 'for the next decade'] is the black art and has been royally mucked about by both privatisation / subsidy policies and largely ignoring climate / environmental factors ...

The UK's [and the world's] problem is that storing electricity, at the quantity required by the grid / consumers is very difficult.

In case anyone wants to know - FYI[2] - I used to work for a company that was in the relevant engineering field - ie power generation & distribution.


----------



## Storm Fox (Apr 16, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Have a look at "Gridwatch" - but not just once or twice.
> Really study how the various supply sectors respond to the demands of the grid, depending on what's synchronised and how the weather is behaving. Watch how the sources interplay ...
> 
> FYI it takes several hours to "heat up" the boilers at a fossil fuel powered plant, or you are using up a lot of fuel to keep them 'nearly' ready to generate. Planning for what is needed [as in 'for the next five minutes' as well as 'for the next decade'] is the black art and has been royally mucked about by both privatisation / subsidy policies and largely ignoring climate / environmental factors ...
> ...


That sound a really interesting job. It really excites my inner geek even at a 33kV 11kV level, switching ,fusing and various redundancies, where the underground cables, just seem to magically pop up out of the ground and connect into the overhead network it seems to random and where do they go underground 🤗


----------



## donkyboy (Apr 16, 2022)

Does anyone have an air fryer? Thinking of getting one to reduce use of oven. Are they any good?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 16, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> Does anyone have an air fryer? Thinking of getting one to reduce use of oven. Are they any good?











						Airfryer - which one is best?
					

Right, I want to buy an airfryer so I can live on nowt but chips.  So which one is best in your experience (links please)?    Budget not an issue (within reason).  Apart from chips I would like the device to be able to cook roast veg and other stuff too - mainly for one.




					www.urban75.net


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 16, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> FYI it takes several hours to "heat up" the boilers at a fossil fuel powered plant,


Unless you're using gas turbines.


----------



## MrCurry (Apr 17, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> Does anyone have an air fryer? Thinking of getting one to reduce use of oven. Are they any good?


The thread Artaxerxes pointed you to is the best resource, but short answer to your question is definitely yes!  Just last night Mrs C wanted some “potato buns” as a snack tea and switched the oven on. (They’re like circular hash browns and come from the freezer section of the supermarket).

I switched off the oven, stuck them in the airfryer and put it in on at 200C - ten mins later they were done. The fan oven would only just have been up to temp to put them in for a 15 min cook, but the airfryer which has a warm-up time of under a minute, had cooked them to a nice crispy finish in 10 mins start to finish. 

10 mins running a 1300W airfryer or 25 mins running a 2,000W fan oven - it’s clear which is the most energy efficient choice by a mile.


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 17, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Unless you're using gas turbines.


Depends ...

Using the gas exhaust to push turbines is only part of the generating capacity, much more efficient to boil water, as well. And it is that heating which takes the time.


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 17, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Depends ...
> 
> Using the gas exhaust to push turbines is only part of the generating capacity, much more efficient to boil water, as well. And it is that heating which takes the time.


Yes but turbines get up to speed faster. Jet aircraft would be pretty useless if you had to wait an hour before you could take off.


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 17, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Yes but turbines get up to speed faster. Jet aircraft would be pretty useless if you had to wait an hour before you could take off.


Yeah, I know, but only using gas to run the turbine wastes a lot of heat / energy ... that's why the majority of stations are "combined cycle" and running both sides is the most efficient way. It's two different ways to turn the generator ... one uses exhaust gases but the other is conventional steam, and much slower to get up to optimal operating state.


----------



## Micky D (Apr 17, 2022)

Y'know i was misinformed about this forum , i was told it was a repository of left wing radical pro working class thought . Turns out its a middle class liberal  wet hand wringing green / eco snooty luddite nightmare ... As you were :  )


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 17, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Y'know i was misinformed about this forum , i was told it was a repository of left wing radical pro working class thought . Turns out its a middle class liberal  wet hand wringing green / eco snooty luddite nightmare ... As you were :  )


----------



## Micky D (Apr 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> View attachment 318988


Right back at ya :  )


----------



## existentialist (Apr 17, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Y'know i was misinformed about this forum , i was told it was a repository of left wing radical pro working class thought . Turns out its a middle class liberal  wet hand wringing green / eco snooty luddite nightmare ... As you were :  )


Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out. And don't believe everything you are told, grasshopper.


----------



## Micky D (Apr 17, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out. And don't believe everything you are told, grasshopper.


Im reading the comments thats whats altering my opinion on most of you


----------



## Raheem (Apr 17, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Im reading the comments thats whats altering my opinion on most of you


This is fascinating, but when I find myself somewhere I didn't want to be, what I do is fuck off.


----------



## Micky D (Apr 17, 2022)

Raheem said:


> This is fascinating, but when I find myself somewhere I didn't want to be, what I do is fuck off.


Like i said i was under the impression a lot of you were left wing / radical - disappointing to find out you're mostly as wet as the Guardian readers you occasionally disparage


----------



## Raheem (Apr 17, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Like i said i was under the impression a lot of you were left wing / radical - disappointing to find out you're mostly as wet as the Guardian readers you occasionally disparage


OK. So you've said it and now you've said it again. Are you going to fuck off, or just hang around repeating the same thing over and over as if it's going to get more interesting?


----------



## Storm Fox (Apr 17, 2022)

The problem is making renewables affordable for everyone and finding a way to provide base load that is not fossil fuel based, not wrecking the environment for the future


----------



## two sheds (Apr 17, 2022)

Although (onshore) wind and solar are the cheapest forms of energy. 



			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/911817/electricity-generation-cost-report-2020.pdf
		


page 25


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 17, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Like i said i was under the impression a lot of you were left wing / radical - disappointing to find out you're mostly as wet as the Guardian readers you occasionally disparage



Yeah because trusting the fossil fuel companies to get us out of the mess they created is absolutely a radical and establishment breaking idea. Fight the power, its a left wing position to get behind BP and continue fossil fuel extraction, lets frak the entire of Lancashire and I'm sure that won't have any negative effects on anyone living there.


Its only been 40 years since the companies knew for a fact they were setting the planet on fire.


----------



## Micky D (Apr 17, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yeah because trusting the fossil fuel companies to get us out of the mess they created is absolutely a radical and establishment breaking idea. Fight the power, its a left wing position to get behind BP and continue fossil fuel extraction, lets frak the entire of Lancashire and I'm sure that won't have any negative effects on anyone living there.
> 
> 
> Its only been 40 years since the companies knew for a fact they were setting the planet on fire.


Its a left wing position to make life as good as possible for the working class and if that means cheap reliable energy via fossil fuels as opposed to unreliables like wind then im for fossil fuels - our whole progress via the industrial revolution has been based on them . Happy to have a mix which includes nuclear but i dare  say some on here have swallowed the eco propaganda whole and would protest against it . You lot are not socialist by any measure - just middle class southern trendies who probably identified with XR twerps on top of the tube trains the other year as opposed to the working class heroes trying to drag them off


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## Micky D (Apr 17, 2022)

Raheem said:


> OK. So you've said it and now you've said it again. Are you going to fuck off, or just hang around repeating the same thing over and over as if it's going to get more interesting?


Wet and hostile


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 17, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Net Zero - green taxes / subsidies have ratcheted peoples energy bills upwards . Its a fact



This explains why countries with more renewable energy infrastructure are suffering the most from the spike in energy prices. Of course if the exact opposite of that had happened, that'd make it look like you were full of shit.


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## Micky D (Apr 17, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yeah because trusting the fossil fuel companies to get us out of the mess they created is absolutely a radical and establishment breaking idea. Fight the power, its a left wing position to get behind BP and continue fossil fuel extraction, lets frak the entire of Lancashire and I'm sure that won't have any negative effects on anyone living there.
> 
> 
> Its only been 40 years since the companies knew for a fact they were setting the planet on fire.


There is no mess , armageddon is not happening its not round the corner or on the horizon yiuve been sold a pup


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 17, 2022)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the standard of edgelord trolls we get nowadays is very poor indeed. We're dealing with humans who couldn't pass the Turing test.


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## Micky D (Apr 17, 2022)

All Starmer has to do is give some vague pro eco statement and you lot will vote for him in droves


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 17, 2022)




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## two sheds (Apr 17, 2022)

if only there were some right-wing climate-change denying politician we could all get behind


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## WouldBe (Apr 17, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Although (onshore) wind and solar are the cheapest forms of energy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They should put one in the HoC. Plenty of wind in there.


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## teuchter (Apr 17, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again, the standard of edgelord trolls we get nowadays is very poor indeed.


Since when did anyone ever at any point say "By jings! the standard of edgelord trolls just now is actually pretty good"?


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Since when did anyone ever at any point say "By jings! the standard of edgelord trolls just now is actually pretty good"?



It's a fundamental human failing that we never truly appreciate anything until its gone.


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## Storm Fox (Apr 18, 2022)

Micky D said:


> There is no mess , armageddon is not happening its not round the corner or on the horizon yiuve been sold a pup


So you are a human caused climate change deiner
What about covid and the antivaxx movement?
Flat earth?
Freedom of the land?
Chemtrails?
The Great Reset?
Ringo was a great drummer?
Where is it end???


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## existentialist (Apr 18, 2022)

Micky D said:


> Im reading the comments thats whats altering my opinion on most of you


Always encouraging when someone is prepared to allow their opinions to be altered.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2022)

Just updated my gas meter reading on OVO's website, still can't do the electric, because they have an estimated reading of over 17500, when it's currently on just 14270, so I've e-mailed a photo of it, FAO the lady in the complaints dept., that I spoke to 3 weeks ago.



> Further to our conversation on 28th March 2022, I attach another photo of my electricity meter, taken this morning and currently showing 14270, which is *up just 136* since the last photo was taken and sent to OVO on the 21st of March.



My three monthly bills from OVO have estimated my monthly usage at 375, 355 & 291, based on the crazy estimates they inherited from SSE, so basically more than twice my usage. 



> Also attached are my last 8 bills from SSE, the first four were sane estimating usage between 402 & 586 per billing period, *a total for the year of 1937.*
> 
> Then it went mad with *bill no. 5 estimating usage at 2201 for just 3 months, more than my entire use the year before!* Then bill no. 6 at 973, no. 7 more sane at 422, then another whopper with no. 8 at 1086.



It's so clear where it all went wrong, I can't believe it takes so long to get something so simple resolved, anyway they only have 4 more weeks now, before I contact the energy ombudsman if required, I wonder if they will get their act together with SSE in time.


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## Leafster (Apr 19, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> When I hear of a discrepancy like this it's usually the heating.


I spoke to them over the weekend. Although they weren't sure of the split between gas and electricity it does seem as though they have heating on higher than I do so I think you're right. There's is also 'all or nothing' rather than the zoned heating I have.


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## StoneRoad (Apr 19, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I spoke to them over the weekend. Although they weren't sure of the split between gas and electricity it does seem as though they have heating on higher than I do so I think you're right. There's is also 'all or nothing' rather than the zoned heating I have.


I was wondering if it was down to differences in heating regime ...
See what happens to their consumption with the better [ha!] weather in the next few months.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2022)

Our electricity supply crapped out on Friday morning. After a whole day of them attempting to fix it they gave up and wired us up to a generator. The generator is still there, has run out of fuel twice now, and there's no news on when the normal power supply will be sorted. This is in the middle of a city. 

If you go to report a power cut they keep telling you don't phone your electricity supplier, because all they do is sell you the electricity they don't own or maintain the infrastructure. At which point you start to wonder if maybe they're not really 'electricity suppliers' at all but just completely useless middlemen.


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## WouldBe (Apr 19, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Our electricity supply crapped out on Friday morning. After a whole day of them attempting to fix it they gave up and wired us up to a generator. The generator is still there, has run out of fuel twice now, and there's no news on when the normal power supply will be sorted. This is in the middle of a city.
> 
> If you go to report a power cut they keep telling you don't phone your electricity supplier, because all they do is sell you the electricity they don't own or maintain the infrastructure. At which point you start to wonder if maybe they're not really 'electricity suppliers' at all but just completely useless middlemen.


Not sure if it's the same in your area but round here (under western power) you can dial 105 to report power failures.


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## Elpenor (Apr 19, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Not sure if it's the same in your area but round here (under western power) you can dial 105 to report power failures.


Wp also have an App which does the same


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## WouldBe (Apr 19, 2022)

Apparently 105 works anywhere in the UK.


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## two sheds (Apr 19, 2022)

Unless you've got no mobile reception and your landline stops working when there's no power  

so I bought an old phone that works when there's no power


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## passenger (Apr 19, 2022)

I'm with bulb I was paying @ £1.25 per day, for electricity, so not to 
bad its a small one bed flat, built in the 80`s I am now paying @
£2.60 per day  about £40 a month extra  living on your own its
worrying.


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## cybershot (Apr 20, 2022)

Boss of collapsed Bulb Energy criticised for £250,000 salary funded by taxpayers
					

Labour MP asked if it was ‘morally justifiable’ for taxpayers to be funding salary of Hayden Wood




					www.theguardian.com


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Not sure if it's the same in your area but round here (under western power) you can dial 105 to report power failures.



Crap phone signal here and no wifi calling without wifi. Also the western power website is down more often than it's up. I have thus been forced to become one of those people who talks to customer service via a public twitter thread


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## CH1 (Apr 21, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Just updated my gas meter reading on OVO's website, still can't do the electric, because they have an estimated reading of over 17500, when it's currently on just 14270, so I've e-mailed a photo of it, FAO the lady in the complaints dept., that I spoke to 3 weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A brief aside on Ovo - I got dumped on them because my previous supplier (Economy Energy) failed - in 2019. 
I had a bit of a war with them, they wanting me to have a ludicrous DD even then - but I paid monthly on an own meter readings.
They twice tried to get my gas meter changed, and when I wanted to switch to another supplier they only allowed this after I sent in photos of my meter readings.

I didn't much like Ovo - but my current supplier Shell is not much better.

Shell seem to think I should be paying them £258 per month combined gas & electricity.
I don't know if they would accept quarterly in arrears on actual readings - like we used to do before switching & estimated direct debits.

I'm beginning to envy people who never switched in their life and still have British Gas and EDF.


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## Cat Fan (Apr 22, 2022)

CH1 said:


> A brief aside on Ovo - I got dumped on them because my previous supplier (Economy Energy) failed - in 2019.
> I had a bit of a war with them, they wanting me to have a ludicrous DD even then - but I paid monthly on an own meter readings.
> They twice tried to get my gas meter changed, and when I wanted to switch to another supplier they only allowed this after I sent in photos of my meter readings.
> 
> ...


I'm also having issues with Shell and their ludicrously high DD estimate since they took over my supply. I don't think their estimate works properly unless you've already been with them 12 months. My current DD is too low but Shell won't let me change it to less than their estimate. What to do? Ignore?


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## StoneRoad (Apr 22, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> I'm also having issues with Shell and their ludicrously high DD estimate since they took over my supply. I don't think their estimate works properly unless you've already been with them 12 months. My current DD is too low but Shell won't let me change it to less than their estimate. What to do? Ignore?


Have a go at working out what you think the DD should be.

Then stash the difference somewhere so you won't spend it !


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## Cat Fan (Apr 22, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Have a go at working out what you think the DD should be.
> 
> Then stash the difference somewhere so you won't spend it !


I'm wondering if it's worth making a lump sum payment to stop the deficit getting too large.


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## StoneRoad (Apr 22, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> I'm wondering if it's worth making a lump sum payment to stop the deficit getting too large.


Possibly - depends on how your supplier deals with such things.
and whether their admin system is efficient / effective.

If interest rates were better ... what I used to do was pay into my savings account at least monthly for rates, gas & electric, and draw out quarterly or whatever to pay the bills. I got the benefit of "some" interest as my payment quarters weren't quite the same ...
If the reduction for DD is greater than any potential gain by interest paid ... then the idea is a moot point.


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## Chz (Apr 22, 2022)

CH1 said:


> A brief aside on Ovo - I got dumped on them because my previous supplier (Economy Energy) failed - in 2019.
> I had a bit of a war with them, they wanting me to have a ludicrous DD even then - but I paid monthly on an own meter readings.
> They twice tried to get my gas meter changed, and when I wanted to switch to another supplier they only allowed this after I sent in photos of my meter readings.
> 
> ...


British Gas are responsible for the most heinous customer service I've ever received in my life.
Ovo have been fine. Noticeably not as responsive since they swallowed (or attempted to anyhow) SSE. They were actually quite _good_ before then.


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## muscovyduck (Apr 22, 2022)

Chz said:


> British Gas are responsible for the most heinous customer service I've ever received in my life.
> Ovo have been fine. Noticeably not as responsive since they swallowed (or attempted to anyhow) SSE. They were actually quite _good_ before then.


British Gas are good if you only engage with them by recorded delivery snail mail, and text. Takes a wee bit of back and forth while they try and get you on the phone but if you keep pushing back against that they back down. 
That said I'm bearing a grudge with them from a few years ago before I learnt that trick and am going to switch as soon as I get the chance.


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## MickiQ (Apr 22, 2022)

I'm sure we all have different experiences and different hates.
British Gas have given me excellent service however Eon who I used to be with were frigging hopeless


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## CH1 (Apr 22, 2022)

Chz said:


> British Gas are responsible for the most heinous customer service I've ever received in my life.
> Ovo have been fine. Noticeably not as responsive since they swallowed (or attempted to anyhow) SSE. They were actually quite _good_ before then.


I have a friend who was on SSE and does not like the way Ovo are managing him as an SSE customer.


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## CH1 (Apr 22, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> I'm also having issues with Shell and their ludicrously high DD estimate since they took over my supply. I don't think their estimate works properly unless you've already been with them 12 months. My current DD is too low but Shell won't let me change it to less than their estimate. What to do? Ignore?


Dunno. I have it on my "to do" list to plot the electricity and gas bills over the last year so I can see where we're going.
I was minded to cancel the DD and pay as I go - like I did with Ovo.
Some Sunday School teacher-like Director of Regulation at Octopus Energy claimed the energy companies are "entitled" to charge a £40/quarter service charge if you do do that.
None of the MPs at the committee hearing quibbled as far as I remember.

Ocvtopus didn't poach the Cheif Exec of OFWAT for nothing!








						Octopus Energy appoints Ofwat CEO as director of regulation and economics
					

Octopus Energy has announced the appointment of Ofwat’s Rachel Fletcher as director of regulation and economics.




					www.current-news.co.uk


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 22, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I have a friend who was on SSE and does not like the way Ovo are managing him as an SSE customer.



Well that's me too, I know the problem was originally caused by SSE and that OVO has taken over a complete mess, but that's their problem not mine, I first contacted OVO on the 11th Jan., so still waiting now on it being resolved is simply not acceptable.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 23, 2022)

OVO's website is not installing any confidence in their ability to come up with accurate figures, my balance yesterday is shown as -£136.12 and today as -£194.89, an increase of £58.77 in just 24 hours, they seem to just pluck random figures out of thin air, the useless fuckers.  🤷‍♂️


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## CH1 (Apr 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OVO's website is not installing any confidence in their ability to come up with accurate figures, my balance yesterday is shown as -£136.12 and today as -£194.89, an increase of £58.77 in just 24 hours, they seem to just pluck random figures out of thin air, the useless fuckers.  🤷‍♂️
> 
> View attachment 319697View attachment 319698


You mean they are giving forecast balances - rather than balances based on actual bills?
I had some good personal news today though - Thames Water announced that I would use £182 of water this year based on my compulsory new smart water meter.
This compared to the £592 water rates. They did not indicate when their billing would change though.
Makes me feel like Tantalus.......


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 23, 2022)

CH1 said:


> You mean they are giving forecast balances - rather than balances based on actual bills?



The 'today's balance' is supposed to be based on estimated daily use between meter readings being inputted, but clearly something is very wrong with their system if it can up with figures that are so far apart in just a 24 hour period, how I am supposed to have used £58.77 in a day?


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 23, 2022)

Never had to much problems with electricity and gas but I know the water company once tried to say I had used enough water for a sports centre based on estimates when I lived in a flat.

I think it was like 3 grand a quarter


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 23, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Never had to much problems with electricity and gas but I know the water company once tried to say I had used enough water for a sports centre based on estimates when I lived in a flat.


My mother got one like that, turned out to be a fault with the newly installed smart meter, surprisingly I found it very easy to resolve with Southern Water.


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## MrCurry (Apr 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OVO's website is not installing any confidence in their ability to come up with accurate figures, my balance yesterday is shown as -£136.12 and today as -£194.89, an increase of £58.77 in just 24 hours, they seem to just pluck random figures out of thin air, the useless fuckers.  🤷‍♂️
> 
> View attachment 319697View attachment 319698


Probably depends on what the daily update from their finance team is on how much they need to rake in from the customers to avoid going bust in the coming days. I think a lot of these energy companies are in such a bad position they are just trying everything to get money in and avoid going to the wall before the wholesale energy prices come down again.

Definitely a climate in which it pays individual customers to argue the toss so you’re not over paying in the short term and over exposed if the company does go into administration.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 23, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> Probably depends on what the daily update from their finance team is on how much they need to rake in from the customers to avoid going bust in the coming days. I think a lot of these energy companies are in such a bad position they are just trying everything to get money in and avoid going to the wall before the wholesale energy prices come down again.
> 
> Definitely a climate in which it pays individual customers to argue the toss so you’re not over paying in the short term and over exposed if the company does go into administration.



Luckily if any company goes bust, your balance is protected.


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## Chz (Apr 23, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> Probably depends on what the daily update from their finance team is on how much they need to rake in from the customers to avoid going bust in the coming days. I think a lot of these energy companies are in such a bad position they are just trying everything to get money in and avoid going to the wall before the wholesale energy prices come down again.
> 
> Definitely a climate in which it pays individual customers to argue the toss so you’re not over paying in the short term and over exposed if the company does go into administration.


If you actually have the cash flow to run a balance, I find (for Ovo, at least) they pay a better interest rate on it than any savings account you can get.
We're just coming out of winter, so I don't have much of a balance but they do pay 5% on it! 
Unfortunately, their T&Cs do say something about trying to use it as a savings account and you can't just pump it up with money for laughs.


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## platinumsage (Apr 24, 2022)

Centrica and EDF bosses on the news today blaming the administrators of failed suppliers for taking ages to properly transfer customers to them, not informing them of credit balances and setting inaccurate direct debits.


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## High Voltage (Apr 24, 2022)

Hmm! I've just had our first "new rate" bill in, £105'ish they've based this on an estimated reading for April, which, surprise, surprise, is too high

So, given that I've got nothing better to do, I'm going to give them DAILY readingsa

And in other news, my OWL meter "maybe" reading a little high, but I'm not 100% sure as I've not got a direct comparison, so that's another set of readings I'm going to take . . . OWL vs Consumer unit . . . but the plus is that I may have tracked down the ghost electricity consumption, or at least the lions share of it


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> but the plus is that I may have tracked down the ghost electricity consumption, or at least the lions share of it



You can't leave it like that, FFS tell us what you think it is.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 24, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Luckily if any company goes bust, your balance is protected.


When bulb went bust I was stuck on a ridiculous rate at Scottish Power. I couldn't get out of the contract until they 'sorted' out my account.   Not only did they double my DD, by the time I was released, they had wiped out my £200 balance on top of that (and a bit more). This is all before the price hikes.


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## MrCurry (Apr 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> but the plus is that I may have tracked down the ghost electricity consumption, or at least the lions share of it





cupid_stunt said:


> You can't leave it like that, FFS tell us what you think it is.


He’s discovered a lion in his house which has been leaving the bathroom underfloor heating on.


----------



## High Voltage (Apr 24, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> You can't leave it like that, FFS tell us what you think it is.


I "think" that the OWL meter is over reading by . . . about 90 KWh over an 8 week's period, which would account for the unaccounted for usage. What I'm doing now is I'm going to super carefully monitor, like daily, both readings and submit the consumer unit reading to Bulb, I won't need to do this for very long, maybe a month, before I can see what's going on. Part of me really wants it to be the OWL meter being "out" but then part of me likes having an easy to read unit on the mantlepiece

As always though . . . watch this space


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## furluxor (Apr 25, 2022)

Not really an energy money moan but related: after my green(-washing?) supplier went bust, I got switched to Shell Energy. Almost at the same time, my Post Office broadband became Shell Broadband with no option to exit the contract. I felt like someone somewhere was laughing. I've disentangled from one of the Shells by now but the other one is still sticking to my household expenditure like a bloated, bloodthirsty leech.


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## two sheds (Apr 25, 2022)

Yes I moved away from Post Office broadband then, too.


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## CH1 (Apr 25, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes I moved away from Post Office broadband then, too.


I was thinking about changing TO Shell broadband to consolidate my utilities under one roof. But.
During my near-one month disconnection in January under the PlusNet/Openreach régime  I became quite enamoured of the Yorkshire way of doing things - especially when they made me a "vulnerable customer" and FORCED the Openreach engineers to do what they cannot ever do (park in a controlled parking zone, come out on a Saturday, reconnect the customer's internal phone wiring etc etc).
To top it all my PlusNet contact turned out to be a Romanian who posts on Facebook about exotic fishing expeditions on the Black Sea coast. Or he did before this Putin thing blew up.

I doubt Shell Broadband provide such a bespoke service.


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## AnnaKarpik (Apr 25, 2022)

Let battle commence; EDF sent me a bill together with usage estimate for the coming year and a revised direct debit. Using their estimated usage they are trying to overcharge by £22 per month (minimum - the skewed day/night ratio is another matter). It always pays to pop their figures into a spreadsheet folks. For those who are accumulating large credit balances, you can ask for it back at any time (over £40 off the top of my head), you don't have to prop up the finances of energy companies, you can let the shareholders do it. I was just repaid £250 by EDF and if they don't want to change my direct debit I will be applying for a refund every time I've got more than £40 on the account.

How to guide for reducing energy direct debits here, might do this instead; https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/lower-energy-direct-debits/


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## prunus (Apr 26, 2022)

prunus said:


> 8 days in running hot water (50C) and underfloor heating (this still getting to temperature, been on for 3 days - at 19C, target 35C):
> 
> 29.1kWh in, 145.3kWh out, COP/SPF 5.0



Been running for about a month now give or take, heating and hot water. COP 5.4. Amazing.  And warm stone floors are really pleasant to walk on.


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## two sheds (Apr 26, 2022)

three and a half units a day is bloody good for that. 50C sounds hot enough, although I read that it should reach 60C occasionally to kill off any legionnaires who may be lurking


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## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> three and a half units a day is bloody good for that. 50C sounds hot enough, although I read that it should reach 60C occasionally to kill off any legionnaires who may be lurking


when i was involved with the working group seeking green accreditation for my employers i was told 60c was the minimum water temperature to prevent legionaires running through the pipes


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## magneze (Apr 26, 2022)

Got an energy monitoring socket and tested a few things. One surprise was an old amp on standby which turns out was using loads of power - virtually the same as when it was 'on'. The TV seems to use a fair bit when on standby too which was also a surprise as it's not that old. With the new price rises these cost quite a bit over the course of a year. Well worth getting or borrowing a monitoring socket - it's already paid for itself a few times over with these discoveries.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 26, 2022)

Yep mine too. I found that 'suspend' on Linux Mint takes about as much power as when the computer's running. I recently noticed a 'PC on/off' button on my keyboard though, and that closes things down to 10W which is very handy. It means I don't have to press the on/off switch which is a bit fucked and I often have to hit the casing for it to work.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 26, 2022)

It's prompted me to get out an old monitoring thing, programme the new electricity prices into it, and have it running for a bit. I think of myself as someone who's already quite energy efficiency conscious but watching it has drawn my attention to a few things, such as lighting. Nearly all my lighting is LED but that fact has made me a little complacent, because although it doesn't use loads of power compared to what it would otherwise, it does still add up. Seeing the "price per month" if you were to leave it on all the time is quite a good motivation to turn stuff off when you don't need it, and I've already started being a bit more proactive in turning off lights that don't need to be on.


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## prunus (Apr 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> three and a half units a day is bloody good for that. 50C sounds hot enough, although I read that it should reach 60C occasionally to kill off any legionnaires who may be lurking





Pickman's model said:


> when i was involved with the working group seeking green accreditation for my employers i was told 60c was the minimum water temperature to prevent legionaires running through the pipes



It heats itself up to 70C weekly (programmable but that’s the default) specifically to kill off legionnaires. The French won’t be able to invade us.


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## two sheds (Apr 26, 2022)

aha perfect then 

I'm still looking for an air-to-air heat pump, although I do still have a winter's worth of wood left for the rayburn. Not using the rayburn for cooking has really reduced the amount I burn.

There's supposed to be a grant up to £5000 for air-air heat pumps (£6000 for ground source) as I recall, runs out March 2024. Drilling holes through the 3-foot thick stone/clay/stone walls could be the problem. A neighbour told me that you start with a 6-inch hole on the one side and end up with a 2-foot hole on the other side. I've got a small window that doesn't do a lot that I could put the heat pump in but haven't really found one that will fit yet. And as has been said on here, noise can be a problem.


----------



## prunus (Apr 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> aha perfect then
> 
> I'm still looking for an air-to-air heat pump, although I do still have a winter's worth of wood left for the rayburn. Not using the rayburn for cooking has really reduced the amount I burn.
> 
> There's supposed to be a grant up to £5000 for air-air heat pumps (£6000 for ground source) as I recall, runs out March 2024. Drilling holes through the 3-foot thick stone/clay/stone walls could be the problem. A neighbour told me that you start with a 6-inch hole on the one side and end up with a 2-foot hole on the other side. I've got a small window that doesn't do a lot that I could put the heat pump in but haven't really found one that will fit yet. And as has been said on here, noise can be a problem.



Sounds like you have the same Cyclopean walls as I do - 3 foot of random rubble mortared with mud and straw   Drilling holes has been no problem, you just need to use core drill bits and a very powerful drill. And I also used a professional to operate it .  Takes a good couple of hours to get through, but the holes are clean and neat.


----------



## contadino (Apr 26, 2022)

I got in touch with a couple of fairly local companies about getting a rooffull of solar electric. Unsurprisingly, they're backed up and wouldn't even be able to book a site survey and quote until end-July.

A rush of renewables installations can't be a bad thing, right?


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 26, 2022)

contadino said:


> I got in touch with a couple of fairly local companies about getting a rooffull of solar electric. Unsurprisingly, they're backed up and wouldn't even be able to book a site survey and quote until end-July.
> 
> A rush of renewables installations can't be a bad thing, right?


Tradesmen generally seem to be backed up for months these days.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 26, 2022)

Tradespeople.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 26, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Tradespeople.


I'm using the word as a noun in its own right without any gender based connotations


----------



## teuchter (Apr 26, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I'm using the word as a noun in its own right without any gender based connotations


So a word with "man" in it, which has a commonly used and well understood alternative, has no gender based connotations? OK.


----------



## Cat Fan (Apr 26, 2022)

Tradies


----------



## Elpenor (Apr 26, 2022)

Trades as I call folk who are on the tools


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## two sheds (Apr 26, 2022)

prunus said:


> Sounds like you have the same Cyclopean walls as I do - 3 foot of random rubble mortared with mud and straw   Drilling holes has been no problem, you just need to use core drill bits and a very powerful drill. And I also used a professional to operate it .  Takes a good couple of hours to get through, but the holes are clean and neat.


Sounds like cob? Mine's rab apparently - same construction as Cornish hedges but with lime mortar although previous owners have introduced a fair bit of cement. 

Ideally I'd like to take the air inlet from down the chimney if it was lined but somehow I don't think it would be allowed and I'd be a bit embarrassed to ask in case they laugh at me


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2022)

teuchter said:


> So a word with "man" in it, which has a commonly used and well understood alternative, has no gender based connotations? OK.


manager for example


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Tradesmen generally seem to be backed up for months these days.


try a tradeswoman


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Hmm! I've just had our first "new rate" bill in, £105'ish they've based this on an estimated reading for April, which, surprise, surprise, is too high
> 
> So, given that I've got nothing better to do, I'm going to give them DAILY readingsa
> 
> And in other news, my OWL meter "maybe" reading a little high, but I'm not 100% sure as I've not got a direct comparison, so that's another set of readings I'm going to take . . . OWL vs Consumer unit . . . but the plus is that I may have tracked down the ghost electricity consumption, or at least the lions share of it


mind you don't let the birthdays slip, not with an important one at the end of the month.


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## High Voltage (Apr 26, 2022)

See if you can spot when I started "giving a fuck" about how much electricity we're using


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## MickiQ (Apr 26, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> try a tradeswoman


Not much chance of that round here, Here in True Blue Yokeland we live in a solid bastion of sexism, misogyny and 1950's era stereotyping. Flipping through the local Help ads all of the adverts (where an actual name is published) bar the nice lady who bakes cakes have male names.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 26, 2022)

See if you can spot when High Voltage's obsession started to cause concern to izz.


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## High Voltage (Apr 26, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> See if you can spot when High Voltage's obsession started to cause concern to izz.
> 
> View attachment 320172


She'll thank me . . . in the long run . . . maybe


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## WouldBe (Apr 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Ideally I'd like to take the air inlet from down the chimney if it was lined but somehow I don't think it would be allowed and I'd be a bit embarrassed to ask in case they laugh at me


Not sure that would work. Wouldn't the cold air exit into the room after going through the heat pump defeating the point?


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## MrCurry (Apr 26, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> See if you can spot when I started "giving a fuck" about how much electricity we're using


I started giving a fuck about 4 years ago, and have mostly been able to improve on the preceding year’s consumption.

Our winter consumption is heavily influenced by the weather (since the heating and hot water runs on electric via a borehole heatpump), so it’s not always going to be lower than the year before even if the baseline consumption rate improved (eg. finding more things which can be switched off / used more efficiently)


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## High Voltage (Apr 26, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> I started giving a fuck about 4 years ago, and have mostly been able to improve on the preceding year’s consumption.
> 
> Our winter consumption is heavily influenced by the weather (since the heating and hot water runs on electric via a borehole heatpump), so it’s not always going to be lower than the year before even if the baseline consumption rate improved (eg. finding more things which can be switched off / used more efficiently)
> View attachment 320178


So looking at your figures, am I right in saying that 2021's usage was just over 5,000KWh??

Again, without getting into "personal" details - a quick Google gives "average" annual consumption for either a 3 bed OR a 3 person family (can't remember which) of "around" 3200KWh, so in a massive over simplification "about" 1100KWh / person - so a guess would be you're a household of either 4 or 5

I KNOW the figures don't work like that but we were "projected" by Bulb for this coming year as using 5200KWh and there's only the two of us in a 2 bed detached cottage, that's what started this for me

MY current projections for the two of us is now closer to 2900KWh, so still "maybe" a little bit high, but certainly a damned sight better than Bulb's "guess"


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## MrCurry (Apr 26, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> So looking at your figures, am I right in saying that 2021's usage was just over 5,000KWh??
> 
> Again, without getting into "personal" details - a quick Google gives "average" annual consumption for either a 3 bed OR a 3 person family (can't remember which) of "around" 3200KWh, so in a massive over simplification "about" 1100KWh / person - so a guess would be you're a household of either 4 or 5
> 
> ...


I doubt the figures you’re googling take account of house heating being electric, they will be based on standard U.K. arrangement of gas fired central heating, so it’s not really comparable.  If I extrapolate our summer consumption and add a bit for extra lighting in winter, then I’d guess we would be using 2,600-2,800kWh annually excluding heating. So that stacks up reasonably favourably.


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## two sheds (Apr 26, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Not sure that would work. Wouldn't the cold air exit into the room after going through the heat pump defeating the point?


How do you mean? It would only work with a single indoor unit but I don't think it would be any different from having the air coming through a duct in the wall. I'm assuming coming down the chimney would be too long a run for the air to come through.


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## JoeyBoy (Apr 26, 2022)

I've been taking a shower here at work whenever possible to save money using the cyclists shower but the bosses reckon too many  of us are doing it and have a put a lock on the door to stop us. If you come on a bike you have to go and sign the key out.
Bunch of cheap bastards.


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## teuchter (Apr 26, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> I've been taking a shower here at work whenever possible to save money using the cyclists shower but the bosses reckon too many  of us are doing it and have a put a lock on the door to stop us. If you come on a bike you have to go and sign the key out.
> Bunch of cheap bastards.


If you're arriving by car then that's fair enough and you should be punished. If you walk or use public transport, tell them that you run part of the way as an effort to improve your fitness and thereby productivity.


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 26, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> I've been taking a shower here at work whenever possible to save money using the cyclists shower but the bosses reckon too many  of us are doing it and have a put a lock on the door to stop us. If you come on a bike you have to go and sign the key out.
> Bunch of cheap bastards.




That’s taking the piss the tight bastards


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## JoeyBoy (Apr 26, 2022)

teuchter said:


> If you're arriving by car then that's fair enough and you should be punished. If you walk or use public transport, tell them that you run part of the way as an effort to improve your fitness and thereby productivity.


I walk if I could afford a car I could probably afford to shower at home all the time.


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## WouldBe (Apr 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> How do you mean? It would only work with a single indoor unit but I don't think it would be any different from having the air coming through a duct in the wall. I'm assuming coming down the chimney would be too long a run for the air to come through.


A normal heat pump with an outside unit draws air in the front, past the heat exchanger and the cooled air exits out of the back of the unit into the outside air.
An air to air heat pump must work in a similar manner so if you drew the air in through the chimney (length of flue shouldn't be a problem) then the cooled air would be expelled into the room which would be colder than the outside air and counteract the warmed air from the other side of the heat pump. 

E2a: usually the need for a hole in the wall is for the pipes from the outside unit to the inside unit not for an air duct.


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## prunus (Apr 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> How do you mean? It would only work with a single indoor unit but I don't think it would be any different from having the air coming through a duct in the wall. I'm assuming coming down the chimney would be too long a run for the air to come through.


I don't _think_ that that setup would work, certainly not with any of the air source heat pumps I looked at (but I mostly concentrated on GS, so not an exahaustive search) - they all require clearance of at least 30cm all round the unit itself to allow exchange of cooled air for warmer external air.  The ducting carrying the produced warm air inside from the unit can be very long, in theory, if well insulated - figures of 50m I seem to remember - but I don't recall any that used ducting to carry the external air in and out (NB you'd need 2 - one to bring the 'warm' external air in, and one to send it back out cooled e2a: oh and I guess you'd want them well insulated from each other too, if running alongside in eg a chimney.  And the outflow/inflow ends to be a long way apart so you're not just sucking back in the cooled air you've just ejected).


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## two sheds (Apr 27, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> A normal heat pump with an outside unit draws air in the front, past the heat exchanger and the cooled air exits out of the back of the unit into the outside air.
> An air to air heat pump must work in a similar manner so if you drew the air in through the chimney (length of flue shouldn't be a problem) then the cooled air would be expelled into the room which would be colder than the outside air and counteract the warmed air from the other side of the heat pump.
> 
> E2a: usually the need for a hole in the wall is for the pipes from the outside unit to the inside unit not for an air duct.


Apparently there are two types of portable air-air heat pumps: single hose and dual hose:


> Single-Hose Heat Pumps​
> These are the most basic types of portable heat pumps, with only one hose that needs to be extended to the outside. This heat pump sucks in air from inside the room and cools or heats it through the compressor. The moisture and heat which needs to be expelled from the room are then routed outdoors through the hose.
> 
> 
> ...











						Portable Heat Pumps - An Excellent Choice for Your Heating and Cooling
					

Portable heat pumps are compact, yet powerful heating & cooling appliances. You can also make them smart using smart AC controllers.




					www.cielowigle.com
				




The single-hose explanation doesn't seem quite right, but it's actually expelling cold air which I hadn't realized. I presume there's a fan to move the warm air from the compressor into the house.

I'd likely go for a dual-hose heat pump, although I'd have to check the diameters of the hoses. As has been said the hoses would have to be insulated from each other if there's a long run.

That article also mentions a window heat pump where the external unit is mounted on the outside of the window, which would seem good for me. If I can get a grant though I'd probably be best going for the most efficient & quietest version I can get whatever that is.


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## pesh (Apr 27, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> I've been taking a shower here at work whenever possible to save money using the cyclists shower but the bosses reckon too many  of us are doing it and have a put a lock on the door to stop us. If you come on a bike you have to go and sign the key out.
> Bunch of cheap bastards.


get duplicates cut


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## two sheds (Apr 27, 2022)

the old wax impressions eh?


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## pesh (Apr 27, 2022)

get a doormat or pot plant to keep it under outside the door


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## MBV (Apr 27, 2022)

What the approximate cost of a 5 min shower at home?


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## Cat Fan (Apr 27, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> I've been taking a shower here at work whenever possible to save money using the cyclists shower but the bosses reckon too many  of us are doing it and have a put a lock on the door to stop us. If you come on a bike you have to go and sign the key out.
> Bunch of cheap bastards.


So you can turn up to work in cycling gear and then you're sorted?


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## JoeyBoy (Apr 27, 2022)

MBV said:


> What the approximate cost of a 5 min shower at home?


dunno but I've noticed I'm going to the Co-Op and putting £20 on my meter key a LOT more frequently these days.


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## JoeyBoy (Apr 27, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> So you can turn up to work in cycling gear and then you're sorted?


I will have to ask the actual cyclists how they prove they're genuine


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## contadino (Apr 27, 2022)

Shaved legs


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## sparkybird (Apr 27, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Not much chance of that round here, Here in True Blue Yokeland we live in a solid bastion of sexism, misogyny and 1950's era stereotyping. Flipping through the local Help ads all of the adverts (where an actual name is published) bar the nice lady who bakes cakes have male names.


That could be because female trades don't need to advertise in those ads, I had 10,000 flyers printed when I started and on retirement 9,998 were still in a box under my bed 🤣
Never short of work! USP innit


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 27, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Not much chance of that round here, Here in True Blue Yokeland we live in a solid bastion of sexism, misogyny and 1950's era stereotyping. Flipping through the local Help ads all of the adverts (where an actual name is published) bar the nice lady who bakes cakes have male names.




Here in darkest Essex it’s much the same


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 27, 2022)

sparkybird said:


> That could be because female trades don't need to advertise in those ads, I had 10,000 flyers printed when I started and on retirement 9,998 were still in a box under my bed 🤣
> Never short of work! USP innit



Probably more competent than the lads in mags tbf, build a better builder and the world will build a path to your door.


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## existentialist (Apr 27, 2022)

MBV said:


> What the approximate cost of a 5 min shower at home?


Worst case. The most powerful showers are rated at 10.5kW (let's call it 10kW). Running that for 60 min would use 10kWh, so 5 min is 1/12 of that, or 0.85kWh (let's call it 1kWh). Which, at current average prices, is going to cost about 28p


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## prunus (Apr 27, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Worst case. The most powerful showers are rated at 10.5kW (let's call it 10kW). Running that for 60 min would use 10kWh, so 5 min is 1/12 of that, or 0.85kWh (let's call it 1kWh). Which, at current average prices, is going to cost about 28p



Depends - if the hot water is heated solely by an immersion heater (ie tanked) and gravity fed, then you need to heat the entire tank to usable temperature even if you’re only going to use a fraction of it in the shower. Ime usually takes about a hour to heat a standard insulated tank with a 3kW immersion, so that’s about 3kWh, or about 90p.


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## existentialist (Apr 27, 2022)

prunus said:


> Depends - if the hot water is heated solely by an immersion heater (ie tanked) and gravity fed, then you need to heat the entire tank to usable temperature even if you’re only going to use a fraction of it in the shower. Ime usually takes about a hour to heat a standard insulated tank with a 3kW immersion, so that’s about 3kWh, or about 90p.


I was assuming that the question was about using a cold water-fed shower - that's certainly how mine works.


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## WouldBe (Apr 27, 2022)

prunus said:


> Depends - if the hot water is heated solely by an immersion heater (ie tanked) and gravity fed, then you need to heat the entire tank to usable temperature even if you’re only going to use a fraction of it in the shower. Ime usually takes about a hour to heat a standard insulated tank with a 3kW immersion, so that’s about 3kWh, or about 90p.


If it's a 10.5Kwh shower it heats the water on demand.


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## existentialist (Apr 27, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> If it's a 10.5Kwh shower it heats the water on demand.


Mine's actually a 7.5kWh, and it does too. I know there are these showers that use hot water inputs and usually have a mixer/regulator, and then there's showers with booster pumps for extra pressure, and so on...it's never really simple!


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## mod (Apr 27, 2022)

Octupus have been great so far. Recommended supplier. My monthly DD is £150 and thats more then i'm using so I'll be in credit come winter.

We both get £50 credited to our account if you use this referral link...









						Octopus Energy
					

The UK's most awarded energy supplier. We're doing energy better - for you and the environment.




					share.octopus.energy


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 27, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Mine's actually a 7.5kWh, and it does too. I know there are these showers that use hot water inputs and usually have a mixer/regulator, and then there's showers with booster pumps for extra pressure, and so on...it's never really simple!


True but if it's only using a pump it will only be using a few watts. It would be one hell of a pump to be using 10.5Kwh.


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## existentialist (Apr 27, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> True but if it's only using a pump it will only be using a few watts. It would be one hell of a pump to be using 10.5Kwh.


As it happens, I'd wanted to do this calculation anyway, as I was curious how much a shower cost me


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## platinumsage (Apr 27, 2022)

mod said:


> Octupus have been great so far. Recommended supplier. My monthly DD is £150 and thats more then i'm using so I'll be in credit come winter.
> 
> We both get £50 credited to our account if you use this referral link...
> 
> ...



Why would you recommend them other than because they give you £50? Am thinking of switching from EDF due to their antiquated billing system but not sure where to.


----------



## prunus (Apr 27, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I was assuming that the question was about using a cold water-fed shower - that's certainly how mine works.



You said worst case 

Actually until recently I had hot water heated by a wood burning stove. I reckon it cost a few quids worth of wood to get a tank fully heated. So that’s even worse.

And if you heat your water using a tokamak fusion reactor - those cost billions!


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## existentialist (Apr 27, 2022)

prunus said:


> You said worst case
> 
> Actually until recently I had hot water heated by a wood burning stove. I reckon it cost a few quids worth of wood to get a tank fully heated. So that’s even worse.
> 
> And if you heat your water using a tokamak fusion reactor - those cost billions!


Ah, I see where the misunderstanding arose, now! I was saying "worst case" as a prelude to rounding everything in unfavourable directions, given my assumption (yeah, I know), that the poster probably had a pure electric cold-feed shower. Hmm, that's assumptions for you


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 27, 2022)

Earlier he told mumsnet to judge him by his actions not his bank balance.




Oh we certainly will buddy


----------



## High Voltage (Apr 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> You can't leave it like that, FFS tell us what you think it is.



Right, I've got "some" data (4 days worth) with numbers that I'm 100% happy with and as previously suspected the OWL reader is reading "about" 1KWh / day over compared with the number on the consumer unit

The OWL reader does give a reading to one decimal place whereas the consumer unit doesn't but even so, this discrepancy could be upwards of 30KWh / month. Readings will continue as will readings from the in-line meters that are gradually being worked around the house to get a plug by plug consumption


----------



## existentialist (Apr 28, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Right, I've got "some" data (4 days worth) with numbers that I'm 100% happy with and as previously suspected the OWL reader is reading "about" 1KWh / day over compared with the number on the consumer unit
> 
> The OWL reader does give a reading to one decimal place whereas the consumer unit doesn't but even so, this discrepancy could be upwards of 30KWh / month. Readings will continue as will readings from the in-line meters that are gradually being worked around the house to get a plug by plug consumption


You _are_ taking this seriously!


----------



## High Voltage (Apr 28, 2022)

existentialist said:


> You _are_ taking this seriously!


This is really winding me up, talk about looking for a needle in a haystack.

I don't mind paying for something if I'm using it, that's not a problem, what's the problem would be going into a pub and asking for "some cider" expecting a pint, being served a half and being charged for a small round and NOBODY being able to explain to me WHY? and I can't even measure what drink I've served or at least get the same measure twice on the bounce

I'm not even "that" (Oh! yes, I fucking am, but the sake of my sanity) bothered about tracking down the last 1KWh or so, but when I can't find HALF of what I'm using over night then that becomes a bit of a problem for me


----------



## mod (Apr 28, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Why would you recommend them other than because they give you £50? Am thinking of switching from EDF due to their antiquated billing system but not sure where to.



Because my bills are now almost half of what I was being charged by Eon Next. 

They use 100% renewable energy.

They've been really easy to deal with and always helpful.


----------



## platinumsage (Apr 28, 2022)

mod said:


> Because my bills are now almost half of what I was being charged by Eon Next.
> 
> They use 100% renewable energy.
> 
> They've been really easy to deal with and always helpful.



Half price, sounds like a good deal. 🤔


----------



## CH1 (Apr 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OVO's website is not installing any confidence in their ability to come up with accurate figures, my balance yesterday is shown as -£136.12 and today as -£194.89, an increase of £58.77 in just 24 hours, they seem to just pluck random figures out of thin air, the useless fuckers.  🤷‍♂️
> 
> View attachment 319697View attachment 319698


I got this shocker yesterday:

Looks like I'm just going to have to load a spreadsheet now.
As I commented up thread, suppliers now officially charge £48 per year per fuel extra (ie £4 per month per fuel) if you do not pay by direct debit.

But there may be a way out of this ESTIMATED BILL HELL.

According to Shell you can also have this - effectively monthly pay-as-you go

Does Ovo offer this?  If it does maybe go for it.
I certainly am on Shell. Clearly Shell's bill estimator thinks I'm running a hotel in South London where all the guests will be in and out of the Sauna all day this coming summer.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 28, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Does Ovo offer this?  If it does maybe go for it.


I honestly don't know, but once the complaint over the account is resolved between SSE & OVO, I expect my DD will drop a little from the current £125,* with a £500+ refund, so I'll be happy to stay on DD. 

* They had increased it to £178, but dropped it back to £125 whilst the issue is being dealt.


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## WouldBe (Apr 28, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> This is really winding me up, talk about looking for a needle in a haystack....


I checked my smart meter last night and it was showing 35W being used. That was for the side lamp, PVR in standby, alarm, central heating controller, timer for pond pump, router and whatever little is used by motion sensitive lights in garden. That works out at about 720W per day just for background stuff.

It's surprising what little bits add up to.


----------



## mod (Apr 28, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Half price, sounds like a good deal. 🤔



That's a combination of...

A. Being ripped off by Eon. Next (dont go near those cunts)
B. I'm not using heating now.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 28, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I'm not even "that" (Oh! yes, I fucking am, but the sake of my sanity) bothered about tracking down the last 1KWh or so, but when I can't find HALF of what I'm using over night then that becomes a bit of a problem for me




Clue's in your username pal.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 28, 2022)

mod said:


> Because my bills are now almost half of what I was being charged by Eon Next.
> 
> They use 100% renewable energy.
> 
> They've been really easy to deal with and always helpful.



They also let you send your own reading whenever you like. So if I'm flush one month I'll submit a reading for five weeks, and if I'm broke I'll just do three weeks.

We got a new fixed price deal in October that seemed ridiculous at the time as it was a 50% rise but it's now looking like we got off easy.


----------



## Superdupastupor (Apr 28, 2022)

not a trot said:


> £190 per month over 10 months.


----------



## bluescreen (Apr 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> I checked my smart meter last night and it was showing 35W being used. That was for the side lamp, PVR in standby, alarm, central heating controller, timer for pond pump, router and whatever little is used by motion sensitive lights in garden. That works out at about 720W per day just for background stuff.
> 
> It's surprising what little bits add up to.


Don't you have a fridge?


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 28, 2022)

bluescreen said:


> Don't you have a fridge?


Yes but it wasn't running when I read the smart meter.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 28, 2022)

bluescreen said:


> Don't you have a fridge?


I think my fridge is the highest intermittent user of electrical power in the house.
The council have me one of those OWL meters about 12 years ago to decorate my kitchen cabinet.
Whenever I see a sudden surge in power usage it's always the fridge - I can feel the warmth in the condenser tube - and the sensuous throbbing!


----------



## CH1 (Apr 29, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I got this shocker yesterday:
> View attachment 320420
> Looks like I'm just going to have to load a spreadsheet now.
> As I commented up thread, suppliers now officially charge £48 per year per fuel extra (ie £4 per month per fuel) if you do not pay by direct debit.
> ...


cupid_stunt two sheds 
Ovo don't do variable direct debits - look at this from the Ovo Forum. They almost seem to take pride in unhelpfulness. They don't even do direct debits on actual use IF YOU HAVE SMART METERS.
Presumably they are only fitting smart meters to avoid the OFGEM fine for not doing it!

*Q Will OVO introduce variable DDs where a smart meter is installed?*
Will OVO introduce variable Direct Debits where a smart meter is installed? | The OVO Forum 
*Best answer by Tim_OVO
Updated on 01/03/22 by Jess_OVO*
 We don’t currently offer a variable Direct Debit payment option. With our Direct Debits your amount won’t change month to month, even if you’ve got Smart Meters installed.

However we’ll regularly check your Direct Debit amount is enough to cover your usage costs. As your smart meters send us your readings regularly, these Direct Debit check in’s are more accurate than if we’re estimating your usage.

Your usage tends to be higher in the winter and lower in the summer which would mean much higher monthly payments in winter, if your Direct Debit varied month to month. Having a more stable Direct Debit amount should allow you to spread your usage costs out throughout the year- building up credit in the summer to see you through the following winter. We find most members prefer things this way as it allows for easier monthly budgeting all year.

*Credit interest*
There is an oddity about Ovo (and Scottish Power apparently)
Ovo made a big thing they paid 3% on credit balances to loyal DD customers - even suggesting in 2017 they were increasing this to 5% for ever.
There seems little information about this - so don't know if it's still in force.


----------



## magneze (Apr 29, 2022)

Impact of energy-draining ‘vampire devices’ overstated, says tech expert
					

Unplugging equipment normally left on standby may not save consumers as much cash as hoped




					www.theguardian.com
				




Interesting - although I'd disagree with the general gist here unless you're sure all your devices are pretty new.

Unless you measure you have no idea what uses lots of standby power. For us - an old stereo - perhaps not surprising, but the TV is pretty recent but uses quite a bit on standby so switching it off at the plug is really effective.


----------



## Chz (Apr 29, 2022)

CH1 said:


> cupid_stunt two sheds
> 
> *Credit interest*
> There is an oddity about Ovo (and Scottish Power apparently)
> ...


Aye, we get 5%. Is pretty much the only reason we didn't move to Octopus last year. The projected savings were about £10, and then factoring in the interest it was even less so we didn't bother.

I'm not surprised they don't offer exact billing though. That float of cash they have from people is what keeps them afloat when prices fluctuate wildly. Moreso, I'm surprised that _any _of them offer it.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 29, 2022)

magneze said:


> Impact of energy-draining ‘vampire devices’ overstated, says tech expert
> 
> 
> Unplugging equipment normally left on standby may not save consumers as much cash as hoped
> ...


My latest PC allegedly uses 65 watts when ON (excluding the screen), but has an external PSU like those you get for laptops.
What is your estimate for this PSU if not unplugged?
I would say negligible - but you never know in these days when all PSUs are switch-mode.
As a budding nonagenarian I hanker after the days when all electrical equipment used transformers - power transformers and of course audio output transformers for those lovely glowing valves.

Did my Antofagasta Copper Mine shares a treat (or FAGS if you happen to be Justin Urquhart Stewart)


----------



## magneze (Apr 29, 2022)

I'm tempted to test our PC with and without the graphics card to see how much difference that makes. Might be going a bit too far though ...  🤔


----------



## CH1 (Apr 29, 2022)

magneze said:


> I'm tempted to test our PC with and without the graphics card to see how much difference that makes. Might be going a bit too far though ...  🤔


In my case I think the low consumption is because there is no separate graphics card - it's integrated. Seems to work OK on Libre Office electricity spreadsheets though.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 29, 2022)

Is the GPU mainly going to determine the power consumption? 

/disclaimer this is what I'd assumed no idea how true it is


----------



## two sheds (Apr 29, 2022)

> A gaming computer requires somewhere between 300 – 500 Watts



that's up to half a kW


----------



## Cat Fan (Apr 29, 2022)

Chz said:


> Aye, we get 5%. Is pretty much the only reason we didn't move to Octopus last year. The projected savings were about £10, and then factoring in the interest it was even less so we didn't bother.
> 
> I'm not surprised they don't offer exact billing though. That float of cash they have from people is what keeps them afloat when prices fluctuate wildly. Moreso, I'm surprised that _any _of them offer it.


I suppose Shell Energy has a bit of a hedge going on with their other business of fossil fuel extraction


two sheds said:


> that's up to half a kW


They do throw off a lot of heat though, could save on the heating bill


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 29, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> They do throw off a lot of heat though, could save on the heating bill


Only if they run off gas.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 29, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> I suppose Shell Energy has a bit of a hedge going on with their other business of fossil fuel extraction


Regarding Shell - this was formerly "First Utility".
In the last price rise panic (much milder than the current one to be fair) the First Utility boss was trailed as an ex coal miner who saw no need for customers to walk around their houses skimpily clad








						First Utility power boss who is arm-wrestling with Big Six
					

Ian McCaig believes it is possible to save money on energy bills without donning a hairshirt but warns that Labour’s plan to freeze them next year is not the way forward.




					www.thisismoney.co.uk
				




I was with First Utility at the time - and this supercilious attitude was what drove me to Atlantic Electricty and Gas - I think.
To be honest I've had more suppliers than Mae West had lovers.
It all started with Amerada Hess around 1999 - they exited the UK after the ENRON crisis.
Not sure why any government ever said the current system was stable, let alone good.


----------



## kalidarkone (Apr 30, 2022)

Hah! I just got an estimated bill from EON re my late ma's empty house....£161. I paid a big bill based on meter readings 6 weeks ago as I'd forgotten to pay after I'd spent 3 months there last year.

 I'll offer to pay quarterly based on a meter reading. I wonder if they will go for it?


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 1, 2022)

I'm in that calm plateau beyond rage right now but in a minute I'll be furious


----------



## MickiQ (May 1, 2022)

Open the window and scream CUNTS! at the top of your voice, you will feel much better for it


----------



## StoneRoad (May 1, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> I'm in that calm plateau beyond rage right now but in a minute I'll be furious



Assumes people actually have any savings left, after the shitstorm that was the covid support cock-up, ie especially bad times for the gig economy workers.


----------



## ska invita (May 1, 2022)

UK savings in action

UK credit card debt hits record high as inflation and cost of living bite​Consumers borrowed £1.5bn net in February — the highest monthly figure since statistics began in 1993

....

 The figure was more than three times higher than the average of £400mn borrowed in the previous six months and pushed total consumer credit, which includes personal loans and car dealership finance, to £1.9bn net — the highest level in five years.
.....

 A fortnightly survey by the Office for National Statistics showed last week that 12 per cent of respondents were using credit cards more than usual to cope with increased prices in the first half of March. The proportion rose to 18 per cent for those aged 30 to 49 and to 21 per cent among renters. Another one in 10 people said they were also borrowing more from family and friends.

.....

 BoE governor Andrew Bailey said on Monday that the UK was facing “a historic” hit to real incomes this year, as spiralling energy costs following the Russian invasion of Ukraine contributed to eroding households’ spending power. The BoE data showed that consumers also deposited less money in bank accounts than before the pandemic. Households deposited £4bn in banks and building societies, less than the £6.3bn average in the previous six months and down from the monthly average of £4.6bn in 2019.


----------



## Cat Fan (May 1, 2022)

ska invita said:


> UK savings in action
> 
> UK credit card debt hits record high as inflation and cost of living bite​Consumers borrowed £1.5bn net in February — the highest monthly figure since statistics began in 1993
> 
> ...


The FT is just head and shoulders above the rest of the pack on this stuff.


----------



## CH1 (May 1, 2022)

I use my credit 100% more than 2 years ago - because Covid  has led to card payment being the norm in most shops, pubs etc.
As it happens I clear the balance each month - so whilst I technically add to the UK credit card debt it is only cyclical on a monthly basis.


----------



## not a trot (May 3, 2022)

BP announce £5 billion profit. Tory woman on the BBC defends it.


----------



## StoneRoad (May 3, 2022)

not a trot said:


> BP announce £5 billion profit. Tory woman on the BBC defends it.











						BP profits soar as calls for windfall tax grow
					

The energy giant said underlying income hit $6.2bn due to 'exceptional oil and gas trading'.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Unless BP do "something" constructive pdq about using that profit - very publicly - towards cost of living & environmental matters then I would strongly support a windfall / excess profit tax - with the proceeds used to reduce cost of living increases [ how ?] and environmental measures ...


----------



## platinumsage (May 3, 2022)

Johnson just ruled out a windfall tax live on the tellybox this morning.


----------



## Thaw (May 3, 2022)

not a trot said:


> BP announce £5 billion profit. Tory woman on the BBC defends it.



You have ignored the costs of exiting Rosneft which results in a $20.4billion loss.


----------



## Thaw (May 3, 2022)

The Rosneft loss is a 'non-cash charge', i.e. no cash has changed hands but the asset value has depreciated. The net debt is also $27.5billion


----------



## Cat Fan (May 3, 2022)

Thaw said:


> The Rosneft loss is a 'non-cash charge', i.e. no cash has changed hands but the asset value has depreciated. The net debt is also $27.5billion


Debt issued by companies to raise capital should not be confused with personal debt. It's not a problem for BP to have billions of outstanding debt, it's completely normal.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 3, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Johnson just ruled out a windfall tax live on the tellybox this morning.



I wouldn't trust him to tell me if the sky was blue. The man wouldn't know truth if it came up to him to say hello and wore a name badge.

He'll flip and flop whichever way the wind blows


----------



## StoneRoad (May 3, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Johnson just ruled out a windfall tax live on the tellybox this morning.


being a cynic, let's see what directorships happen or what donations arrive ...


----------



## StoneRoad (May 3, 2022)

looks like ofgem might be taking an interest ...









						Energy firms face deadline in review of direct debit hikes
					

Some companies have three weeks to respond to accusations they have set direct debits too high.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




I wonder how sharp is their bite, now they've barked ?


----------



## cybershot (May 3, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> looks like ofgem might be taking an interest ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The article doesn't really tell us anything we don't already know. What it has failed to point out though as has happened with some family members. Is that when their energy supplylier went bust, they were on what is by todays energy cap tariff, an absolute steal! So when they get moved to a new company and find their bills have increased by 80ish percent, they are wondering WTF!
Other family members have incorrectly been telling them it should only be 54% more. Yes that's right, but only if they were going from energy cap before April, to Energy Cap after April.
If they've gone from a great fixed price deal, to the current price cap, then yes, it will be a hell of a lot more than 54% more.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (May 4, 2022)

cybershot said:


> The article doesn't really tell us anything we don't already know. What it has failed to point out though as has happened with some family members. Is that when their energy supplylier went bust, they were on what is by todays energy cap tariff, an absolute steal! So when they get moved to a new company and find their bills have increased by 80ish percent, they are wondering WTF!
> Other family members have incorrectly been telling them it should only be 54% more. Yes that's right, but only if they were going from energy cap before April, to Energy Cap after April.
> If they've gone from a great fixed price deal, to the current price cap, then yes, it will be a hell of a lot more than 54% more.


That will be the case for some, sure, but I know EDF tried to put my DD up when they had all the information they needed to set it £22.00 lower and still be quids in.


----------



## JoeyBoy (May 6, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> I've been taking a shower here at work whenever possible to save money using the cyclists shower but the bosses reckon too many  of us are doing it and have a put a lock on the door to stop us. If you come on a bike you have to go and sign the key out.
> Bunch of cheap bastards.


Someone has drilled the lock out so back to showering at work for the moment. A witch hunt is in progress. In the meantime I have discovered that I'm not getting the £150 council tax payment to help with energy bills since my council tax is rolled in with my rent it is going to my landlord so he is getting £750 out of our block of flats whilst we get stuck with the big energy bills. Another bastard going up against  the wall come the revolution.
He owns something like 30 or so houses as well as half the flats in my block, don't know if he includes council tax in the rent in his house though, the bastard will  be quids in if he does.


----------



## Elpenor (May 6, 2022)

Getting my £150 payment from Teignbridge on Monday


----------



## WouldBe (May 6, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Getting my £150 payment from Teignbridge on Monday


If you move quick enough can you get a second payment?


----------



## nottsgirl (May 6, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> Someone has drilled the lock out so back to showering at work for the moment. A witch hunt is in progress. In the meantime I have discovered that I'm not getting the £150 council tax payment to help with energy bills since my council tax is rolled in with my rent it is going to my landlord so he is getting £750 out of our block of flats whilst we get stuck with the big energy bills. Another bastard going up against  the wall come the revolution.
> He owns something like 30 or so houses as well as half the flats in my block, don't know if he includes council tax in the rent in his house though, the bastard will  be quids in if he does.


This is criminal.


----------



## MickiQ (May 6, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> This is criminal.


Which one? drilling the lock out or the landlord getting all the energy rebates?  I suspect the law and the opinion on these forums are diametrically opposed as to which is which.


----------



## two sheds (May 7, 2022)

Question for gentlegreen and others:

I have solar panels, but can’t add battery backup. The panels give me electricity during the day for most of the year, but in the evenings when the panels aren’t generating I use a 140W computer upstairs for up to 7 hours so an extra 1 kWh/day.

Does anyone know whether I could plug a 1 kW inverter/charger (£250) into one of my power sockets upstairs to charge a sealed deep-cycle 130 Ah lead acid battery (£88) during the day to supply my computer at night?


----------



## WouldBe (May 7, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Does anyone know whether I could plug a 1 kW inverter/charger (£250) into one of my power sockets upstairs to charge a sealed deep-cycle 130 Ah lead acid battery (£88) during the day to supply my computer at night?


Don't think so as that appears to work directly from the solar panels. Also a quick look it charges a 24V battery while you've linked to a 12V battery.


----------



## two sheds (May 8, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Don't think so as that appears to work directly from the solar panels. Also a quick look it charges a 24V battery while you've linked to a 12V battery.



It does say "Charge mode: AC and PV charging your battery together, and AC utility provide power to your loads" - I was hoping that would work with AC charging battery 100% rather than 50%. There's a 12 V version too. 

So in principle it might work, perhaps with another inverter if not with this one?


----------



## MrCurry (May 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Question for gentlegreen and others:
> 
> I have solar panels, but can’t add battery backup. The panels give me electricity during the day for most of the year, but in the evenings when the panels aren’t generating I use a 140W computer upstairs for up to 7 hours so an extra 1 kWh/day.
> 
> Does anyone know whether I could plug a 1 kW inverter/charger (£250) into one of my power sockets upstairs to charge a sealed deep-cycle 130 Ah lead acid battery (£88) during the day to supply my computer at night?


You can certainly do what you want to accomplish, but you can’t charge your battery using the unit you linked to, which is an inverter for converting a battery output (DC) to mains.  To charge a lead acid battery you want to go in the other direction from mains to DC and a normal car start battery charger is not likely to give you enough charging current to refill a 130Ah battery during 6 hours of peak sunlight, so you’d want something quite beefy like this one or even bigger.

Then to run the PC at night your inverter you linked to might work, but it’s very expensive, there are cheaper ones which are still good.

But… it’s inefficient (and expensive) to convert from battery voltage up to mains and then convert back within the PC PSU to DC which the circuit boards need. Would you be willing to open up the PC and replace the PSU with a DC input version such as this one? Then you can run the computer direct from the battery and you still have the fallback option of using a bigger capacity mains to 12V PSU to run the whole setup from mains if your battery happens to be empty.

If you try to do it with an inverter, don’t underestimate the size of inverter and battery you need, as the surge current when the PC first switches on might cause a 1kW inverter to shut down. A lot of the Chinese made inverters are good for only half their rated power, so think of a 2kW inverter as a 1kW unit, and devices like PCs (and fridges and freezers) can have initial surge currents when switching on which make them appear to the inverter  to be a much bigger load than they are while running.


----------



## prunus (May 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Question for gentlegreen and others:
> 
> I have solar panels, but can’t add battery backup. The panels give me electricity during the day for most of the year, but in the evenings when the panels aren’t generating I use a 140W computer upstairs for up to 7 hours so an extra 1 kWh/day.
> 
> Does anyone know whether I could plug a 1 kW inverter/charger (£250) into one of my power sockets upstairs to charge a sealed deep-cycle 130 Ah lead acid battery (£88) during the day to supply my computer at night?



Is it a (mains input) desktop or a laptop?  If the latter then you only need a 4000mAh battery with DC output at the right voltage (capable of 0.6A output, which is trivial), and get the right jack on the end, which should be easy enough. If eg it’s USB-C powered then this will run it 
Battery
And charge no problem in the time you have available I’d think.  Saves one of the DC->AC->DC cycles which will be much more efficient. 

I think


----------



## teuchter (May 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Question for gentlegreen and others:
> 
> I have solar panels, but can’t add battery backup. The panels give me electricity during the day for most of the year, but in the evenings when the panels aren’t generating I use a 140W computer upstairs for up to 7 hours so an extra 1 kWh/day.
> 
> Does anyone know whether I could plug a 1 kW inverter/charger (£250) into one of my power sockets upstairs to charge a sealed deep-cycle 130 Ah lead acid battery (£88) during the day to supply my computer at night?


Is it worth it? £250 + 88 = £338

If your energy price is about 40p per KWh, it would take about 2 and a half years before you were any better off.


----------



## two sheds (May 8, 2022)

Fair point, but I'm assuming electricity prices will be going to 50p/unit if not higher. So around 2 year repayment time, which is good for energy improvements. I'd actually consider 5 year repayments for say an air-air heat pump. 

As kind people have pointed out though, it might not actually work unless I get the equipment right, so I have to go off and look at what's been said.


----------



## teuchter (May 8, 2022)

Your other option would be to spend the money on a more efficient computer. Eg the new mac minis only use about 20-30W. I don't know if there are equivalents in windows world.


----------



## platinumsage (May 8, 2022)

UPSs containing lead-acid batteries are designed to run PCs out of the box. No faff with figuring out how it all wires up.

This will run a 200W PC for three hours: APC Smart-UPS 2200VA USB & Serial 120V - APC Trinidad and Tobago

Might be worth seeing if you can find one or more second-hand ones.


----------



## two sheds (May 8, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> UPSs containing lead-acid batteries are designed to run PCs out of the box. No faff with figuring out how it all wires up.
> 
> This will run a 200W PC for three hours: APC Smart-UPS 2200VA USB & Serial 120V - APC Trinidad and Tobago
> 
> Might be worth seeing if you can find one or more second-hand ones.


I've got one, but mine beeps loudly and annoyingly when there's a power cut. Bloody good idea though if I can get one that's 130 Ah and doesn't beep loudly and annoyingly when there's a power cut. That would solve it all, I could just unplug it at night unless the battery didn't charge up enough during the day.

I was a bit concerned about having a lead acid battery indoors but hadn't realized I've already got one under the computer upstairs i.e. the UPS 

Eta that one is bloody close tbh.


----------



## WouldBe (May 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> It does say "Charge mode: AC and PV charging your battery together, and AC utility provide power to your loads" - I was hoping that would work with AC charging battery 100% rather than 50%. There's a 12 V version too.
> 
> So in principle it might work, perhaps with another inverter if not with this one?


Only had a quick look at your links last night. The other problem would be how to get it to charge when the sun is out and you have a surplus if power? Could you link it to your immersion heater that only works when you have surplus PV? But you would need something as well that makes sure the battery is charged even if it's a cloudy day.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 9, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Getting my £150 payment from Teignbridge on Monday



Did you have to apply for it? Not a whisper here in Exeter


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 9, 2022)

Got my £ 150 off the council a week or two back


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (May 9, 2022)

not heard a pip from my council
but can't say I'm surprised


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 9, 2022)

I didn't hear anything, it just landed in the bank account (i do council tax by direct debit)


----------



## xsunnysuex (May 10, 2022)

No payment from Lambeth council so far.


----------



## cesare (May 10, 2022)

Not heard anything from Tower Hamlets. No direct debit


----------



## Epona (May 10, 2022)

I am in Newham and not on direct debit - can't find any info about how to claim my rebate.

Apparently councils have until September to get their act together and sort this out, so it could be another 4 months yet for those of us who don't pay by DD.


----------



## sparkybird (May 10, 2022)

xsunnysuex said:


> No payment from Lambeth council so far.


Mine came into my account yesterday, so fingers crossed for you.


----------



## rubbershoes (May 10, 2022)

Odd situation with my bills. I was with Pure Planet who went bust and my account was transferred to Shell. My meter has night and day usage readings and I'd submit these to Pure Planet. 

The Shell system only allows me to input the day reading. I've told them several times about this but they haven't done anything yet. Consequently last month's bill was only £8.

I guess it'll work it's way through their bureaucracy and I'll get presented with a massive catch up bill some time


----------



## alex_ (May 10, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> Odd situation with my bills. I was with Pure Planet who went bust and my account was transferred to Shell. My meter has night and day usage readings and I'd submit these to Pure Planet.
> 
> The Shell system only allows me to input the day reading. I've told them several times about this but they haven't done anything yet. Consequently last month's bill was only £8.
> 
> I guess it'll work it's way through their bureaucracy and I'll get presented with a massive catch up bill some time



Don’t chase them Check the energy back-billing rules they can’t bill you back past 12 months.


----------



## StoneRoad (May 10, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> Odd situation with my bills. I was with Pure Planet who went bust and my account was transferred to Shell. My meter has night and day usage readings and I'd submit these to Pure Planet.
> 
> The Shell system only allows me to input the day reading. I've told them several times about this but they haven't done anything yet. Consequently last month's bill was only £8.
> 
> I guess it'll work it's way through their bureaucracy and I'll get presented with a massive catch up bill some time


Based on estimating your consumption, I would stash some cash in an interest-bearing a/c as a buffer for when they do get their act together ...


----------



## Elpenor (May 14, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Did you have to apply for it? Not a whisper here in Exeter


I had to sign up to pay via direct debit; that was all. They were quite good with comms on their weekly email. 

Hope yours gets paid soon.


----------



## two sheds (May 16, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> You can certainly do what you want to accomplish, but you can’t charge your battery using the unit you linked to, which is an inverter for converting a battery output (DC) to mains.  To charge a lead acid battery you want to go in the other direction from mains to DC and a normal car start battery charger is not likely to give you enough charging current to refill a 130Ah battery during 6 hours of peak sunlight, so you’d want something quite beefy like this one or even bigger.
> 
> Then to run the PC at night your inverter you linked to might work, but it’s very expensive, there are cheaper ones which are still good.
> 
> ...


Thanks  . Is this the charger you linked to? Your link doesn’t work for me. Charges at 20 A so about 6 hours to charge 130 Ah battery, which would be ideal if so. I think the original battery I linked to would be good.

Any thoughts for an inverter? I did check but the only 2 kW ones I could see for under £200 are used ones (which might be fine tbh). Eta: something like this?

Afraid I’d not be confident replacing the computer power supply, well I’m confident I could do it but I’m not confident it would work afterwards. (I’d also need a 240 V supply for the monitors?). The chargers/inverters look about 80- 90% efficient so about 70% efficient in total but better than the near 0% efficient by just wasting the extra energy as I do now.


----------



## two sheds (May 17, 2022)

prunus said:


> Is it a (mains input) desktop or a laptop?  If the latter then you only need a 4000mAh battery with DC output at the right voltage (capable of 0.6A output, which is trivial), and get the right jack on the end, which should be easy enough. If eg it’s USB-C powered then this will run it
> Battery
> And charge no problem in the time you have available I’d think.  Saves one of the DC->AC->DC cycles which will be much more efficient.
> 
> I think


Desktop I’m afraid. It’s my main work computer with two monitors so I couldn’t really use my laptop (which is anyway knackered)


----------



## two sheds (May 17, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Your other option would be to spend the money on a more efficient computer. Eg the new mac minis only use about 20-30W. I don't know if there are equivalents in windows world.


The computer is an oldish i3 taking so only taking about 80 W and I’ve upgraded to SSD and things and I'm hoping it should have a few years life left in it. Plus the two monitors between them take 60 W.


----------



## two sheds (May 17, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> UPSs containing lead-acid batteries are designed to run PCs out of the box. No faff with figuring out how it all wires up.
> 
> This will run a 200W PC for three hours: APC Smart-UPS 2200VA USB & Serial 120V - APC Trinidad and Tobago
> 
> Might be worth seeing if you can find one or more second-hand ones.


UPS would be ideal and simplest but on reflection I’m not sure it would work. They are generally just for emergency backup and only seem to give around 3 hours maximum for 140 W. Some of them will take an extra battery, but all the ones I looked at that do this cost up to £1000.

Second hand would be possible but I’d also be using them in a way they’re not designed for, i.e. running them to near empty every day. So I think I really need a deep-cycle battery.


----------



## two sheds (May 17, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Only had a quick look at your links last night. The other problem would be how to get it to charge when the sun is out and you have a surplus if power? Could you link it to your immersion heater that only works when you have surplus PV? But you would need something as well that makes sure the battery is charged even if it's a cloudy day.


Yes today I actually spoke to the bloke who made the controller which diverts the extra power from solar panels to heat my immersion heater. He said the best way (apart from charging the battery at night using cheap 5p/unit power from Octopus which he’s actually thinking of) would be just to plug the charger/battery/inverter into one of the house sockets.

I could then just switch the charger on when there’s enough power from panels to cover my computer/fridge/freezer which are my only real base load (about 300 W which I’d get from a reasonably bright but cloud covered day). If there’s not enough charge during the day I could just plug the computer into my usual mains socket at night.

Eta: apologies to all for the delay in getting back to you and thanks for the thoughts. I'm getting quite hopeful about this now if I can get an inverter.


----------



## MrCurry (May 17, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Thanks  . Is this the charger you linked to? Your link doesn’t work for me. Charges at 20 A so about 6 hours to charge 130 Ah battery, which would be ideal if so. I think the original battery I linked to would be good.
> 
> Any thoughts for an inverter? I did check but the only 2 kW ones I could see for under £200 are used ones (which might be fine tbh). Eta: something like this?
> 
> Afraid I’d not be confident replacing the computer power supply, well I’m confident I could do it but I’m not confident it would work afterwards. (I’d also need a 240 V supply for the monitors?). The chargers/inverters look about 80- 90% efficient so about 70% efficient in total but better than the near 0% efficient by just wasting the extra energy as I do now.


That was not the battery charger I had linked to, but it looks ok and I can’t remember or find the one I originally found.

Be careful with the inverter - the one you linked to is “modified sine wave”, which means the output is closer to a square wave than the true sine wave that mains electricity should be. There’s no guarantee your computer would operate from it.

In inverters, I know of no better bargain than these from Banggood I have a 3000W and 5000W 12V version and they work great. Assuming you’re seeing the same prices I am, the 3000W / 12V ship from China option is only £87 atm, so get it ordered quick if you’re going to, before it goes up again. They are true sine wave output and will use only around 0.7A standby current from your 12V battery with nothing plugged into the mains output, which is pretty good.  Sign up to their email newsletter before ordering and you might get a discount code.  I’ve ordered tons from them over the years, they’re a fairly safe company, but untick the “shipping insurance” and “tariff insurance” options in checkout, it’s a money maker for them (pay with PayPal and shipping loss / damage is their liability, not yours, so no need to pay for insurance).

The 2200W one is around £15 cheaper at £60. It’s up to you. Personally I’d stick with the 3000W one I know, since you have to halve the rating for a true figure and there’s surge current to consider. They’re damn cheap for what they are.


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## WouldBe (May 17, 2022)

two sheds said:


> UPS would be ideal and simplest but on reflection I’m not sure it would work. They are generally just for emergency backup and only seem to give around 3 hours maximum for 140 W. Some of them will take an extra battery, but all the ones I looked at that do this cost up to £1000.
> 
> Second hand would be possible but I’d also be using them in a way they’re not designed for, i.e. running them to near empty every day. So I think I really need a deep-cycle battery.


Ups wouldn't work anyway as it only switches over to battery when the mains supply fails and as it would be plugged into a normal socket it won't unless you have a power cut.


----------



## Aladdin (May 17, 2022)

The government here promised to give every household some money off their electricity bill. 

It's meant to happen this week.


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## prunus (May 17, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Ups wouldn't work anyway as it only switches over to battery when the mains supply fails and as it would be plugged into a normal socket it won't unless you have a power cut.



You could plug it in via a timer switch that cuts its power (input) when you want to switch to stored power.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 17, 2022)

Just got an e-mail from OVO headed - *Let’s bring your account back on track* - and I was actually fairly excited that they had finally resolved my complaint about the ridiculous over estimating of my electricity usage, after all they've had at least half a dozen meter readings since January, including two photos of the meter readings.

But, no...



> We recently ran a Direct Debit check-in on your account to make sure your payments match your energy use and costs.
> 
> *Your most recent check-in showed us your monthly payment isn’t enough*
> 
> It won’t cover your estimated energy use and costs, and as of today your balance is set to be -£640.29 by 17 May 2023 – this is your current 12-month billing period as you’re on our Simpler Energy plan. To get your balance back on track, we need to increase your payments. We need you to increase your monthly Direct Debit to £179. This is an increase from your current amount of £125.



WTF?   

Now, they know there's a dispute and when they last increased the DD to £179, it took 20 minutes arguing on the phone before they agreed to reduce it back to £125, which is still more than it should be. PLUS they said they would put a stop on my account, so I wouldn't receive further e-mails like this, and they wouldn't change my DD again without my agreement until my complaint is resolved, yet the e-mail continues...



> *If you don’t take any action
> 
> We’ll automatically adjust your monthly payment,* giving you at least 10 working days notice before your payment. As of today the amount would be £179, we will recalculate it to make sure you're paying the right amount. This is to protect you from building up a negative balance and having to pay a lump sum in the future.



WTF?   

Anyway, they agreed to resolve this by next Monday, otherwise the complaint goes into the energy ombudsman, so if they send me notice of this increase being applied after that, I'll just cancel the DD until it is resolved.

I've dealt with various complaints with big companies over the years, but never have I experienced anything like this bunch of total fuckwits.


----------



## kalidarkone (May 17, 2022)

I paid £300 to Eaon a few months ago - from a meter reading. This is ma's house which is empty with everything but the radio switched off. The bill I paid included me being  there for 3 months last year.

The cunts now are hassling me for £160   
I'll ring them tomorrow- because that's my admin day this week....theoretically!


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## High Voltage (May 17, 2022)

Well, the old OWL meter is definitely the "weak" link in my energy usage chain . . . so far this month it is over reading by 27KW against the actual usage recorded by the consumer unit doo-dah

Lowest daily usage so far is . . . 2KW and that was yesterday when we were both out of the house for most of the day, so nothing actually being used apart from the fridge freezer and some background "stuff"


----------



## WouldBe (May 17, 2022)

prunus said:


> You could plug it in via a timer switch that cuts its power (input) when you want to switch to stored power.


Doh.  Knew there must be an easy way to do it automatically rather than having to switch it on and off manually.


----------



## two sheds (May 17, 2022)

Timer is excellent, ta and a lot better than what I was thinking of 

Switch on at about 10 am when the sun hits the panels to 4 pm. Any extra would as now go to heat my immersion although I'd have to watch that in winter because of Legionnaires, perhaps switch the immersion off. In winter if there's not enough sunlight I could just charge the battery up and disconnect it, running the puter from mains at night. 

I am also thinking of leaving my existing UPS connected as it is since this would warn me (annoying beep) if the main battery was discharged.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (May 17, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes today I actually spoke to the bloke who made the controller which diverts the extra power from solar panels to heat my immersion heater. He said the best way (apart from charging the battery at night using cheap 5p/unit power from Octopus which he’s actually thinking of) would be just to plug the charger/battery/inverter into one of the house sockets.
> 
> I could then just switch the charger on when there’s enough power from panels to cover my computer/fridge/freezer which are my only real base load (about 300 W which I’d get from a reasonably bright but cloud covered day). If there’s not enough charge during the day I could just plug the computer into my usual mains socket at night.
> 
> Eta: apologies to all for the delay in getting back to you and thanks for the thoughts. I'm getting quite hopeful about this now if I can get an inverter.


Not sure where you are located but I collected 2 UPS which I am not using (maybe you can daisy chain them? And I also have a deep cycle battery which I do not need in Brixton London if it's any help.


WouldBe said:


> Ups wouldn't work anyway as it only switches over to battery when the mains supply fails and as it would be plugged into a normal socket it won't unless you have a power cut.


switches on sockets ;-)


----------



## two sheds (May 17, 2022)

Cornwall I'm afraid, but thank you anyway


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (May 17, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Cornwall I'm afraid, but thank you anyway


I have a friend who drives to London for medical stuff from gunnislake in east cornwall/tamar valley and back every fortnight if it helps.
Must also mention that the health of all those item is unknown to me.


----------



## two sheds (May 17, 2022)

No car here  but again thanks - appreciated. The battery particularly would have been good because I think I'm going to need two.


----------



## WouldBe (May 17, 2022)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> switches on sockets ;-)


I was trying to think of a way to do it automatically instead of manually and couldn't think of using a time switch. 

And Muppet doctors keep telling me there's nothing wrong with my memory.


----------



## two sheds (May 17, 2022)

I was wondering whether I could use a solar cell to detect the light level I should switch on at, but then I'd run the risk of switching on and off repeatedly  . I'll look back through my records to check the times with most sun, but if it's charging for 6-8 hours then it's going to be around 10 am to 6 pm I think. A versatile easily changeable timer would be good to let me change the start time depending on what the day's forecast is like.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (May 17, 2022)

two sheds said:


> No car here  but again thanks - appreciated. The battery particularly would have been good because I think I'm going to need two.


That's a shame.
Re your monitor issue, they can also probably be converted to 12V making the use of an inverter redundant maybe look at this blog post


----------



## two sheds (May 18, 2022)

So: 
20A Charger  charging for 6.5 hours to give 130 Ah (1.6 kWh) to power 140 W computer for 7 hours. 

Two 130 Ah Batteries. I discover that it’s 130 Ah (C100) meaning it’s only 130 Ah if discharged over 100 hours. If discharged over say 10 hours the capacity is only around 90 Ah. So I’m charging up 130 Ah worth but only getting 90 Ah back because of internal losses which is a bit of a shame but never mind. I’m thinking of two batteries so that they’re not deep cycling the whole time which I presume wouldn’t do them any good. 

3 kW Inverter which might even let me run a 1 kW fan heater for an hour on sunny but cold winter day

I can’t retrofit a battery to my PV system so I’m hoping this will take me near off-grid between May and October. The panels would charge the batteries over day, with anything over the 240 W (20 A @ 12 V) being used by my existing controller to heat my immersion. I think that’s a cloudy but reasonably bright day.  It all doesn’t take up too much room either, will need to allow for air flow but a block about 35l x 40w x 40h cm. 

Tl:dr Costs around £310 and assuming a future price of 50p/kWh hopefully gives a repayment time of around 20 months.


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## teuchter (May 18, 2022)

two sheds said:


> So:
> 20A Charger  charging for 6.5 hours to give 130 Ah (1.6 kWh) to power 140 W computer for 7 hours.
> 
> Two 130 Ah Batteries. I discover that it’s 130 Ah (C100) meaning it’s only 130 Ah if discharged over 100 hours. If discharged over say 10 hours the capacity is only around 90 Ah. So I’m charging up 130 Ah worth but only getting 90 Ah back because of internal losses which is a bit of a shame but never mind. I’m thinking of two batteries so that they’re not deep cycling the whole time which I presume wouldn’t do them any good.
> ...


Can't remember if you already answered this, but is selling the surplus daytime electricity back to your supplier not an option for you?

Seems silly that an individual has to set up all this kit when the national grid could effectively be doing the same thing.


----------



## two sheds (May 18, 2022)

Yep indeed. With the contract I'm under though they pay me 4p/unit for excess energy I export, even after all the energy price increases (I get paid 25p/unit for all the energy I generate though).


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## teuchter (May 18, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yep indeed. With the contract I'm under though they pay me 4p/unit for excess energy I export, even after all the energy price increases (I get paid 25p/unit for all the energy I generate though).


What if you switched to a supplier that gave you a better deal for excess energy though?

eg









						Introducing Outgoing Octopus: The UK's first smart export tariff
					

Perfect for homes with solar panels, battery storage, or any other way of sharing energy back to the grid.




					octopus.energy


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## WouldBe (May 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> What if you switched to a supplier that gave you a better deal for excess energy though?
> 
> eg
> 
> ...


Even in the variable rate that would only be just over 10p per kWh instead of the 29p two sheds is getting currently.


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## two sheds (May 18, 2022)

and I think the 4p is supplier wide, it was fixed by the government when I signed the contract (was initially 3p/unit but they increased it  ).


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## Aladdin (May 19, 2022)

We've been having rubbish weather. Rain non stop. Wind. It's quite cool for mid May. There has been no chance of drying the washing outdoors so the tumble dryer is on.
I've always tried to line dry clothes from April to October. But this month so far has been a disaster.

Also, the parents need to be warm so the heating has been on for an hour every morning and 2 hours before bedtime. We have ended up going to bed early just because its warmer there. I'm looking into the costs involved in changing from open fire to a stove. They seem to be a lot warmer and possibly cheaper to run?

The electric bill is due to get €100 knocked off it by the government as a once off thing. But I suspect the bill will still be high. Dreading it.
I've sold some of my doc marten collection which will help with the bill and surely the weather will warm up in June.


----------



## extra dry (May 19, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Just got an e-mail from OVO headed - *Let’s bring your account back on track* - and I was actually fairly excited that they had finally resolved my complaint about the ridiculous over estimating of my electricity usage, after all they've had at least half a dozen meter readings since January, including two photos of the meter readings.
> 
> But, no...
> 
> ...


phone  them up and tell them you are switching to solar and firewood


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## two sheds (May 19, 2022)

Aladdin said:


> We've been having rubbish weather. Rain non stop. Wind. It's quite cool for mid May. There has been no chance of drying the washing outdoors so the tumble dryer is on.
> I've always tried to line dry clothes from April to October. But this month so far has been a disaster.
> 
> Also, the parents need to be warm so the heating has been on for an hour every morning and 2 hours before bedtime. We have ended up going to bed early just because its warmer there. I'm looking into the costs involved in changing from open fire to a stove. They seem to be a lot warmer and possibly cheaper to run?
> ...


Yes stove will be more efficient and cheaper to run rather than open fire. You may need a chimney liner though, so yes get a couple of quotes.


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## Aladdin (May 19, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes stove will be more efficient and cheaper to run rather than open fire. You may need a chimney liner though, so yes get a couple of quotes.



Its got to be done.. I'm saving for it and hope to sort it by the end of September.


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## two sheds (May 19, 2022)

I’ve also just given myself a bit of a shock by checking the energy consumption of my fridge. It is a mini (camping type) 240 V fridge that was given to me 20 years ago. It takes 90 W which I knew about but was on almost full time yesterday which I didn’t know about. It took 2 kWh  Say 30p/unit that’s 60p a day, 360*60 = £216/year  . I’ve actually unplugged it and put contents in a cool bag – I was hoping that a couple of things I’d put in from the freezer would cool it down nicely but apparently not  

The freezer on the other hand is newish and even in a warmer room only took 0.3 kWh for the day. So if I can't get the cool bag to work I’m thinking of this for £80 which is similar to others at about 100 kW/year so about £30, which would be repayment time of 6 months. Means I scrap my old fridge but it was old when I got it and it looks like it’s on its last legs anyway.

Ooo 45 years ago in a bedsit I had a cool box made of sort of expanded polystyrene which you poured water in and the evaporation cooled it down. I need something like that again.


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## MrCurry (May 19, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I’ve also just given myself a bit of a shock by checking the energy consumption of my fridge. It is a mini (camping type) 240 V fridge that was given to me 20 years ago. It takes 90 W which I knew about but was on almost full time yesterday which I didn’t know about. It took 2 kWh  Say 30p/unit that’s 60p a day, 360*60 = £216/year  . I’ve actually unplugged it and put contents in a cool bag – I was hoping that a couple of things I’d put in from the freezer would cool it down nicely but apparently not
> 
> The freezer on the other hand is newish and even in a warmer room only took 0.3 kWh for the day. So if I can't get the cool bag to work I’m thinking of this for £80 which is similar to others at about 100 kW/year so about £30, which would be repayment time of 6 months. Means I scrap my old fridge but it was old when I got it and it looks like it’s on its last legs anyway.
> 
> Ooo 45 years ago in a bedsit I had a cool box made of sort of expanded polystyrene which you poured water in and the evaporation cooled it down. I need something like that again.


It proves the value of measuring consumption rather than making assumptions. Good that you spotted the excess consumption.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 20, 2022)

Can anyone help us out here? We've had solar panels for nearly a decade now, and we've just bought a battery and an immersion diverter. This was all planned and arranged before prices went through the roof but it's quite fortuitous. Any excess solar power we have gets stored in the battery until it is full, then gets used to top up the immersion. We're with Octopus. For the time being, during the summer, we are going to stay on their general tariff but there is a tariff called Agile Octopus which allows you to download electricity to your battery at off-peak times when electricity is much cheaper or free or they even, apparently, pay you to download it. The downside is that prices vary in real time, so you may get charged something other than you are expecting. Has anyone got any experience of this?


----------



## High Voltage (May 20, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> The downside is that prices vary in real time, so you may get charged something other than you are expecting. Has anyone got any experience of this?



Surge pricing . . . from the little that I understand I'd avoid anything even sounding like this like the plague, unless, of course, there's an upper limit to how much the prices can be allowed to surge, then ymmv


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## platinumsage (May 20, 2022)

I think tariffs like that are great if you're really engaged with it, and would be happy to get an alert on your phone at 3am telling you that you will be paid 2p if you turn the electric heating on for an hour.


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## danski (May 20, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Agile Octopus which *allows you to download electricity to your battery* at off-peak times when electricity is much cheaper or free or they even, apparently, pay you to download it. The downside is that prices vary in real time, so you may get charged something other than you are expecting. Has anyone got any experience of this?


I’m sure others can help better with your enquiry but please, for the love of all that’s holy, it’s _charging_ your battery, ffs


----------



## Chilli.s (May 20, 2022)

danski said:


> it’s _charging_ your battery


Not syphoning into?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 20, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I think tariffs like that are great if you're really engaged with it, and would be happy to get an alert on your phone at 3am telling you that you will be paid 2p if you turn the electric heating on for an hour.


From what I have seen so far you can set up rules for all this kind of stuff so that you don't get disturbed at inconvenient times. Your standing charge does increase though, so I wonder if the decreased overnight prices get offset by the new standing charge,


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 20, 2022)

danski said:


> I’m sure others can help better with your enquiry but please, for the love of all that’s holy, it’s _charging_ your battery, ffs


Early in my morning. Please accept my fulsome apologies.


----------



## WouldBe (May 20, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Not syphoning into?


You need to connect a pipe to the socket, unscrew the filler caps on the battery and let the electric run into the battery.


----------



## teuchter (May 20, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Even in the variable rate that would only be just over 10p per kWh instead of the 29p two sheds is getting currently.


Yeah, I thought when I looked at this a while ago, they were offering a better rate than the feed in tariff one, but I must have misremembered/misunderstood.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 20, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> You need to connect a pipe to the socket, unscrew the filler caps on the battery and let the electric run into the battery.


I tried doing that when we were with EDF, but their electricity was French and we didn't have an adapter.


----------



## two sheds (May 20, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Can anyone help us out here? We've had solar panels for nearly a decade now, and we've just bought a battery and an immersion diverter. This was all planned and arranged before prices went through the roof but it's quite fortuitous. Any excess solar power we have gets stored in the battery until it is full, then gets used to top up the immersion. We're with Octopus. For the time being, during the summer, we are going to stay on their general tariff but there is a tariff called Agile Octopus which allows you to download electricity to your battery at off-peak times when electricity is much cheaper or free or they even, apparently, pay you to download it. The downside is that prices vary in real time, so you may get charged something other than you are expecting. Has anyone got any experience of this?


Do you need to if you're charging your battery for free during the day from the panels? What's your consumption during the day that isn't being covered by the panels?

I'm just about to order a similar setup (thanks to all again), and will probably have to switch off the immersion diverter November to April and just heat the immersion on demand, or switch on the immersion override once a week so it reaches 50C for two hours to prevent Legionnaires.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 20, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Do you need to if you're charging your battery for free during the day from the panels? What's your consumption during the day that isn't being covered by the panels?
> 
> I'm just about to order a similar setup (thanks to all again), and will probably have to switch off the immersion diverter November to April and just heat the immersion on demand, or switch on the immersion override once a week so it reaches 50C for two hours to prevent Legionnaires.


Well it all depends. Days of full sunshine, even in the winter, are usually more than adequate. But days on end of rain, even in the summer, can be crap. Still monitoring the battery usage. It's relatively new and there were some teething troubles, all sorted now. 
If cheap, or free, electricity overnight is available then *charging *the battery overnight might make the immersion diverter a possibility even in winter. I've yet to properly explore how viable that would be.


----------



## two sheds (May 20, 2022)

Yes fair point. You'd better just heating the immersion heater at night direct rather than going through the battery, though?

What were your teething problems with the battery by the way? And are you finding the C100/C10 disparity a problem?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 20, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes fair point. You'd better just heating the immersion heater at night direct rather than going through the battery, though?


Hadn't thought of that. Ideally you'd want a reliably predictive piece of software that would kick off when electricity was cheap and the next day was certainly going to be overcast or rainy.


two sheds said:


> What were your teething problems with the battery by the way? And are you finding the C100/C10 disparity a problem?


1. Failed to turn up with the immersion diverter.
2. Smart meters delivered day after installation of batteries ( no one's fault).
3. Immersion diverter delivered. Seemed to work OK.
4. Trip switch on fuse box kept being activated. Turned out the immersion diverter not installed correctly. So they fixed that.
5. Finally we got the software to monitor battery usage.
6. Turned out the batteries were being charged, but weren't discharging, as I had suspected.
7. They fixed that, blaming false information from the manufacturers (probably true).
8. In fixing that they temporarily deactivated the immersion diverter.
9. Which they subsequently fixed.

Not very impressive, but the firm were very apologetic, get good reviews and have been around more than 10 years. So OK in the end.


----------



## two sheds (May 20, 2022)

Adds “software to monitor battery usage” to checklist 

Will be interesting to see how 180 Ah of battery storage (2 nights supply) will last given variable light levels during the day. What's your battery capacity (how big is yours?) and what type? Sorry for constant questions.

And yes I'm thinking of checking in to the weather forecast of a morning (I do anyway) to see when light levels will be best for adjusting the timer.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 20, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Adds “software to monitor battery usage” to checklist
> 
> Will be interesting to see how 180 Ah of battery storage (2 nights supply) will last given variable light levels during the day. What's your battery capacity (how big is yours?) and what type? Sorry for constant questions.
> 
> And yes I'm thinking of checking in to the weather forecast of a morning (I do anyway) to see when light levels will be best for adjusting the timer.


This is what we ordered

2 x 2.4Kw Pylon Tech lithium- ion batteries
1 x 3000GX Victron inverter charger.
1 x ET112 meter
1 x 100amp current transformer
1 x Cables and switches
1 x Installation and commissioning.
1 x IBoost immersion controller


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## MrCurry (May 20, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> This is what we ordered
> 
> 2 x 2.4Kw Pylon Tech lithium- ion batteries
> 1 x 3000GX Victron inverter charger.
> ...


How much did the batteries cost?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 20, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> How much did the batteries cost?


The whole shebang just over £5,100. Which I reckon (back of fag-packet calculation) would be paid for in 7 years. That calculation made before the price increases.


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## Chilli.s (May 20, 2022)

A friend of mine has a solar panels making electricity and plans to get an electric car to charge up with the surplus and get free milage


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## MrCurry (May 21, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> The whole shebang just over £5,100. Which I reckon (back of fag-packet calculation) would be paid for in 7 years. That calculation made before the price increases.


That’s pretty good. The lithium batteries are pricey atm but hopefully with the forecasts for electric car adoption, solar systems will benefit too from economies of scale and falling prices.

I’m sure you’re right about your payback period and it’s only going to get better as the energy prices get worse.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 21, 2022)

EDF offering a crap 2 fixed year tarrif and saying prices likely to go up again in October.


Ugh.


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## Rob Ray (May 21, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> That’s pretty good. The lithium batteries are pricey atm but hopefully with the forecasts for electric car adoption, solar systems will benefit too from economies of scale and falling prices.



Mm maybe don't bet on battery prices falling, there's a global supply shortage of lithium which isn't going away any time soon.


----------



## Cat Fan (May 21, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> EDF offering a crap 2 fixed year tarrif and saying prices likely to go up again in October.
> 
> 
> Ugh.


At this point the only thing that can save us from eye watering energy bills is state intervention a la France.

Luckily our government is famous for being in favour of helping the little guy. _End sarcasm_


----------



## planetgeli (May 21, 2022)

My bill hasn't doubled or tripled - in fact the rate per unit of electricity has stayed the same. My daily standing charge has increased by 150%.

So my supplier obviously whacked up the DD.

I'm now nearly £300 in credit to fucking Eon.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 21, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> My bill hasn't doubled or tripled - in fact the rate per unit of electricity has stayed the same. My daily standing charge has increased by 150%.



That's weird, my rate went up 37%, and standing charge by 70%.


----------



## weltweit (May 21, 2022)

It is interesting. 
I am on a rechargeable key meter, so far my tariff code has remained the same.


----------



## Chilli.s (May 21, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> So my supplier obviously whacked up the DD.
> 
> I'm now nearly £300 in credit to fucking Eon.


Funny how the government allows this to happen, wouldnt it be easy to make the energy companies liable to pay interest on credit balances and administration fees if the customer has to chase up repayment


----------



## two sheds (May 21, 2022)

Back to the fridge for the moment - I've got stuff in a cool box at the moment but it's not really satisfactory. Was thinking that I could take stuff out of the freezer at night and put it in a properly insulated cool box like:


but it would soon get scubby so I thought a proper cool box something like:


but they're 50 quid odd so I caved in and have ordered a mini fridge from Currys for £80. 

Incidentally all the energy ratings have been upgraded (downgraded?) so what was A+ is now F.

I just bought a 23-inch monitor with a power consumption of 13 W and it's rated as F


----------



## planetgeli (May 21, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's weird, my rate went up 37%, and standing charge by 70%.



We don't have gas, just electric, so maybe that explains it...a bit?

Standing charge up to 50p a day from 21p a day.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 21, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> We don't have gas, just electric, so maybe that explains it...a bit?
> 
> Standing charge up to 50p a day from 21p a day.



I was only taking about my electric costs, standing charge has gone from 22.89p to 39.67p per day, the rate per kWh went from 20.53p to 28.08p.

On the gas side, standing charge has gone from 24.87p to 25.92p per day, the rate per kWh went from 3.86p to 6.97p.


----------



## High Voltage (May 21, 2022)

We're with Bulb and our standing change is now 51.63p / day and 28.41p / KWh for power - I can't remember what the "old" prices were


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (May 22, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Back to the fridge for the moment - I've got stuff in a cool box at the moment but it's not really satisfactory. Was thinking that I could take stuff out of the freezer at night and put it in a properly insulated cool box like:
> 
> View attachment 323333
> but it would soon get scubby so I thought a proper cool box something like:
> ...


oh boy, all my appliances must be ZZZ------------------- ish


cupid_stunt said:


> I was only taking about my electric costs, standing charge has gone from 22.89p to 39.67p per day, the rate per kWh went from 20.53p to 28.08p.
> 
> On the gas side, standing charge has gone from 24.87p to 325.92p per day, the rate per kWh went from 3.86p to 6.97p.


massive increase on teh gas standing charge or a comma placing mistake?


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 22, 2022)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> massive increase on teh gas standing charge or a comma placing mistake?


 
Extra figure appeared, I've edited it, it's now 25.92p per day for gas.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (May 22, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> My bill hasn't doubled or tripled - in fact the rate per unit of electricity has stayed the same. My daily standing charge has increased by 150%.
> 
> So my supplier obviously whacked up the DD.
> 
> I'm now nearly £300 in credit to fucking Eon.


They should have a facility to request repayment hidden away on the website somewhere; I've never been able to find it on EDF except by putting 'get repayment from EDF' into the search engine.


----------



## MickiQ (May 22, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> They should have a facility to request repayment hidden away on the website somewhere; I've never been able to find it on EDF except by putting 'get repayment from EDF' into the search engine.


It's hidden at the end of a page that takes following 15 separate links, it's also written in Latin just in case you find it anyway


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 23, 2022)

I submitted my meter readings on Saturday in time for this month's bill, gas is fine, but still the electric situation hasn't been resolved.

My meter reading was 14420, 140.65Kkwh used in the month, usage cost £39.49. OVO have estimated my meter reading as 18256, 259.00kwh used at a cost of £72.73. 

They are showing I am almost £200 in debt, whereas I estimate I am around £400 in credit.

Anyway, they have missed the deadline they agreed for resolving this matter, so the complaint goes into the energy ombudsman today.

ETA - the complaint is in, OVO has 2 weeks to respond.


----------



## Chz (May 23, 2022)

It angers me more because they were a decent company before eating SSE. Instead of bringing SSE up to their level, it's brought their own customers down to SSE's level.


----------



## two sheds (May 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> So:
> 20A Charger  charging for 6.5 hours to give 130 Ah (1.6 kWh) to power 140 W computer for 7 hours.
> 
> Two 130 Ah Batteries. I discover that it’s 130 Ah (C100) meaning it’s only 130 Ah if discharged over 100 hours. If discharged over say 10 hours the capacity is only around 90 Ah. So I’m charging up 130 Ah worth but only getting 90 Ah back because of internal losses which is a bit of a shame but never mind. I’m thinking of two batteries so that they’re not deep cycling the whole time which I presume wouldn’t do them any good.
> ...


ordered, should all be here sometime june, xcited


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 23, 2022)

Chz said:


> It angers me more because they were a decent company before eating SSE. Instead of bringing SSE up to their level, it's brought their own customers down to SSE's level.



Following conversations I've had with OVO I get the impression they have inherited a lot of problems from SSE and are struggling to get on top of it, I hope when they do it will get back to how it used to be.

Anyway, the complaint is in to the ombudsman, OVO has 2 weeks to respond.


----------



## Cat Fan (May 23, 2022)

My over-estimated bill problem lasted for about a year before it was eventually sorted.

Then the new supplier had a problem with over-estimated future usage (please increase DD to £400pcm no thanks!!)

I'm hoping it's fixed because they have managed to somehow revive my smart meters that I had installed years ago and were dead to my previous supplier.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2022)

Finally got my first bill from British Gas. Have been put on a quarterly, gas and electric with them. They've got the credit from my bust supplier and used it. So my bill was actually surprisingly OK. Which is a relief. I spose I rarely turn the heating on maybe have half a dozen occasions this year, if that. I feel like I use a lot of electricity though. Gadgets, small server on 24/7, desktop on more than off, + WFH.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2022)

I just don't get how similar households bills can be so wildly different.


----------



## WouldBe (May 23, 2022)

xenon said:


> I just don't get how similar households bills can be so wildly different.


Idiots in charge.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 23, 2022)

Quite impressed he managed it but mostly I'm just in awe at his normal day to day diet. 









						Landlord made spag bol from free Burger King while trying to live on £1 a day
					

Craig is raising awareness about the cost of living crisis.




					metro.co.uk
				






> An average day of eating for Craig normally would consist of a full English breakfast, a packet of biscuits with tea or coffee, a burger for lunch and dinner from a fast food chain, like McDonalds or KFC.


----------



## Cerv (May 23, 2022)

a whole packet of biscuits every day?


----------



## Cat Fan (May 24, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Quite impressed he managed it but mostly I'm just in awe at his normal day to day diet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


£200 a week to £5 a week is quite the change.

I do note however:

he didn't include the cost of cooking in his budget
he got given some food for free
he lost a significant amount of weight

The third one would be more worrying if he didn't normally eat a ton of junk food every day haha


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 24, 2022)

Taxing the wind farm and renewables as well, canny chap


----------



## Ranbay (May 24, 2022)

It's about £250 year just to have the meters in my house, before I use anything.


----------



## MickiQ (May 24, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> It's about £250 year just to have the meters in my house, before I use anything.


Standing charges are just fucking robbery


----------



## alex_ (May 24, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Taxing the wind farm and renewables as well, canny chap




Yes they are taxing the wind farm who's electricity is being sold to consumers for 30p per kw/hr, when their business case required <5p per kw/hr. 

The wind farms going online in the U.K. now - have been built on the basis that the U.K. gov guarantees a price somewhere between 40 and 60 quid per megawatt hour.

This means if the the provider can provide power cheaper than this they make money.

At points in may 2022 the price per megawatt hour was nearly 500 quid.

This means the providers have been making 450 quid per megawatt hour supplied.

This is why the windfall tax is totally justified, none of these companies foresaw this money coming - therefore they’ve not planned to spend it.


----------



## MickiQ (May 24, 2022)

Energy price cap: Typical energy bill set to rise by £800 a year in October
					

Industry regulator Ofgem warns households that they should expect higher energy bills this winter.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Come October it looks like bills are going to rise by roughly the same amount that they rose in April.


----------



## two sheds (May 24, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Energy price cap: Typical energy bill set to rise by £800 a year in October
> 
> 
> Industry regulator Ofgem warns households that they should expect higher energy bills this winter.
> ...


And coming into winter, too


----------



## WouldBe (May 24, 2022)

alex_ said:


> This is why the windfall tax is totally justified, none of these companies foresaw this money coming - therefore they’ve not planned to spend it.


Same could be said of the government raking in extra tax due to rising prices of gas, electric, petrol and all other goods. I wonder if the government have taken this into account?


----------



## alex_ (May 24, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Same could be said of the government raking in extra tax due to rising prices of gas, electric, petrol and all other goods. I wonder if the government have taken this into account?



Yup - if petrol has gone up 50% the Vat revenue on it is up 50% as well.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 25, 2022)

I’ll just never forgive all the fucking scum and traitors who voted for the Boris regime in their hysterical anti-socialist hissy fit back in December 2019. They are 100% to blame for this shit.


----------



## two sheds (May 25, 2022)

I try to concentrate my hatred on the cunts that enabled it - particularly Daily Mail and Sun and the rest that hoorayed them into power.

Separate topic: first useful thing I've found on NextDoor - announcement of heat pump (etc) grants.





__





						Apply for the Boiler Upgrade Scheme
					

You could get a grant to install a heat pump or biomass boiler. Find out if you’re eligible and how to apply.




					www.gov.uk
				




From the Department of Levelling up uke: - great initiative, just relabel existing shit as 'levelling up' like Thatcher relabelled rubbish dumps as 'Recycling Centres'.


----------



## two sheds (May 25, 2022)

Bloke's arriving Friday lunchtime to check whether air source heat pump would work  .

I see there's also heat pumps that work from domestic hot water supply (I presume immersion heater) which would be good because of the Solamiser controller I've got. I'd actually idly wondered before whether I could put a fan across the immersion heater to blow warm air round upstairs in winter.

Eta: ah I suppose the hot water supply heat pumps will be water to water types rather than air to air.


----------



## MickiQ (May 25, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I’ll just never forgive all the fucking scum and traitors who voted for the Boris regime in their hysterical anti-socialist hissy fit back in December 2019. They are 100% to blame for this shit.


Get off the fence Jeff, tell us how you really feel


----------



## WouldBe (May 25, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I’ll just never forgive all the fucking scum and traitors who voted for the Boris regime in their hysterical anti-socialist hissy fit back in December 2019. They are 100% to blame for this shit.


Tory voters caused Russia to invade Ukraine.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (May 25, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Tory voters caused Russia to invade Ukraine.


The shit show around energy prices started last September...


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 25, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> The shit show around energy prices started last September...


You mean the Tory voters planned it all as long ago as that? The bastards, etc etc


----------



## Cat Fan (May 25, 2022)

It was a government decision not to maintain our natural gas reserves, and a government decision not to invest in nuclear power earlier.

Those two decisions have put us miles behind France in responding to this crisis.

Maybe a Labour government would have done the same though, it's impossible to say.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 25, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> It was a government decision not to maintain our natural gas reserves, and a government decision not to invest in nuclear power earlier.
> 
> Those two decisions have put us miles behind France in responding to this crisis.
> 
> Maybe a Labour government would have done the same though, it's impossible to say.


Tidal power would have been the most obvious investment solution decades ago. Both Tory and Labour effing useless.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 25, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> It was a government decision not to maintain our natural gas reserves, and a government decision not to invest in nuclear power earlier.
> 
> Those two decisions have put us miles behind France in responding to this crisis.
> 
> Maybe a Labour government would have done the same though, it's impossible to say.



I don't think there's much appetite for nuclear power from either side. Better to keep burning fossil fuels.


----------



## alex_ (May 25, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> It was a government decision not to maintain our natural gas reserves, and a government decision not to invest in nuclear power earlier.
> 
> Those two decisions have put us miles behind France in responding to this crisis.
> 
> Maybe a Labour government would have done the same though, it's impossible to say.



EDF which generates all of the power in France is 85% state owned and 70% of French power is Nuclear, which makes it a lot easier for them to cap power prices - as they are in direct control and costs are flat.

“Hilariously” EDF also own all of the currently running U.K. nuclear power stations.

The 1979 Thatcher government plan to continue building nuclear power stations would have left us in a much better place right now. But it was cancelled in the 1980s.


----------



## BigTom (May 26, 2022)

Now it's going to be quicker, cheaper and easier to overbuild wind & solar. 

Need lots of storage to fully solve the problem of course but i'd probably bet on that happening before we managed to build a new nuclear plant.


----------



## sparkybird (May 26, 2022)

Ok so it turns out the £150 council tax rebate (for some) was a loan. It was to have been added back onto your energy bill in a few years time, to be repaid back to govt.
However it seems that govt now realises what a shit idea this is, and it will not have to be paid back.
Clear as mud, eh?


----------



## platinumsage (May 26, 2022)

sparkybird said:


> Ok so it turns out the £150 council tax rebate (for some) was a loan. It was to have been added back onto your energy bill in a few years time, to be repaid back to govt.
> However it seems that govt now realises what a shit idea this is, and it will not have to be paid back.
> Clear as mud, eh?



Nope, that refers to the £200 rebate that is due to be applied to electricity bills in the autumn. The £150 council tax rebate was never to be repaid.


----------



## alex_ (May 26, 2022)

BigTom said:


> Now it's going to be quicker, cheaper and easier to overbuild wind & solar.
> 
> Need lots of storage to fully solve the problem of course but i'd probably bet on that happening before we managed to build a new nuclear plant.



The modular nuclear plants thing may have legs if it can significantly reduce the per unit cost of a power station.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 26, 2022)

Nationalise & gaol the directors of energy companies 

How the fuck is it morally justified to profit from the supply of utilities that can mean life of death for many?

I’m beginning to doubt that capitalism is all it’s cracked up to be


----------



## sparkybird (May 26, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Nope, that refers to the £200 rebate that is due to be applied to electricity bills in the autumn. The £150 council tax rebate was never to be repaid.


Ah ok thanks. So now the £200 won't have to be paid back?


----------



## platinumsage (May 26, 2022)

sparkybird said:


> Ah ok thanks. So now the £200 won't have to be paid back?



Correct, and today the Chancellor doubled it to £400.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 26, 2022)

Basically, in total the council tax rebate and the extra grant in Oct., means we get at least £650 of help that doesn't need repayment.

There's even more for people on benefits & pensioners.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 26, 2022)

Here's the details -

*What support has the chancellor announced?*

Eight million of the lowest income households - those on Universal Credit, Tax Credits, Pension Credit and legacy benefits - will be receive a one-off payment of £650. It will come in two payments; one in July and another in the autumn
Pensioners will get an extra £300 via winter fuel payments
There'll be a one-off disability cost-of-living payment of £150 for those in receipt of Personal Independence Payments
Mr Sunak also doubled a planned £200 energy support grant coming in the autumn to £400 and cancelled the planned repayments









						Windfall tax U-turn made to fund £650 payment for lowest income households | ITV News
					

There'll also be a £400 energy bills rebate for everyone in the UK and more help for pensioners and those on disability benefits. | ITV National News




					www.itv.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 26, 2022)

Now do food


----------



## alex_ (May 26, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Here's the details -
> 
> *What support has the chancellor announced?*
> 
> ...



Nothing for energy efficiency.


----------



## MickiQ (May 26, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Here's the details -
> 
> *What support has the chancellor announced?*
> 
> ...


Some good came out of Partygate after all eh?
Nothing to see here it is time to Move On


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 26, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Some good came out of Partygate after all eh?
> Nothing to see here it is time to Move On



“PS: aren’t I better than Boris?”


----------



## MickiQ (May 26, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> “PS: aren’t I better than Boris?”


Well Yes but that's a very low bar


----------



## magneze (May 26, 2022)

They've even messed up the timing of this announcement. Now everyone thinks they're only doing it because of Partygate not because they think it's actually necessary. Go on Rishi, shoot the other foot.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 26, 2022)

magneze said:


> They've even messed up the timing of this announcement. Now everyone thinks they're only doing it because of Partygate not because they think it's actually necessary. Go on Rishi, shoot the other foot.



They haven't messed up the timing, this is very much about partygate, not just to reduce media coverage of that, but an attempt to reassure MPs they can get on top of things, as MPs return to their constituencies during the half-term recess, and face the anger from their local supporters & voters.


----------



## magneze (May 26, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> They haven't messed up the timing, this is very much about partygate, not just to reduce media coverage of that, but an attempt to reassure MPs they can get on top of things, as MPs return to their constituencies during the half-term recess, and face the anger from their local supporters & voters.


Good luck with that.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 26, 2022)

This governments u-turned so much it’s managed to face the right way.

Then it’s u-turned again


----------



## Elpenor (May 26, 2022)

Good news for those who need it; I still hate the tories though

Also I’ve learnt today that disabled people are half as important as pensioners in Rishi’s eyes


----------



## MickiQ (May 26, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Good news for those who need it; I still hate the tories though
> 
> Also I’ve learnt today that disabled people are half as important as pensioners in Rishi’s eyes


Less likely to vote Tory no sense spending good money on people who won't vote for you anyway


----------



## emanymton (May 26, 2022)

So on this £400 energy payment. If I remember right with the original £200 If you didn't have a smart meter you had to do something to claim it? Has it been said yet If this is still the same? The news I have looked at is typically vague on this.

It's just that the question of if I have a smart meter or not, is. It as simple it should be.


----------



## Cerv (May 26, 2022)

emanymton said:


> So on this £400 energy payment. If I remember right with the original £200 If you didn't have a smart meter you had to do something to claim it? Has it been said yet If this is still the same? The news I have looked at is typically vague on this.
> 
> It's just that the question of if I have a smart meter or not, is. It as simple it should be.


I think you've mixed up with pre-payment meters.

If you've one those you'll have to claim it.
Regular billed customers, whether on a smart meter or an old one, will have the amount automatically credited to their statement.

I wonder how much money the civil service have wasted on setting up the scheme for 4 year repayments of the £200, that now won't be used. When everyone said at the time it should just be a grant not a loan. :/


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 26, 2022)

emanymton said:


> So on this £400 energy payment. If I remember right with the original £200 If you didn't have a smart meter you had to do something to claim it? Has it been said yet If this is still the same? The news I have looked at is typically vague on this.
> 
> It's just that the question of if I have a smart meter or not, is. It as simple it should be.



There was something about pre-payment meters, smart ones will be credited, vouchers will be issued to other customers.

Otherwise it's just credited to your account, whether you have a smart meter or not.


----------



## emanymton (May 26, 2022)

Cerv said:


> I think you've mixed up with pre-payment meters.
> 
> If you've one those you'll have to claim it.
> Regular billed customers, whether on a smart meter or an old one, will have the amount automatically credited to their statement.
> ...


That could be it, always meant to look into it nearer the time.


----------



## MickiQ (May 26, 2022)

Is it just going to be credited to your account in one big lump then? What's to stop people then just claiming a credit refund for it or will they not mind that?


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 27, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Is it just going to be credited to your account in one big lump then? What's to stop people then just claiming a credit refund for it or will they not mind that?



It will come in two payments; one in July and another in the autumn.


----------



## MickiQ (May 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> It will come in two payments; one in July and another in the autumn.


That's the handout to those on means-tested benefits, is the energy  handout the same? It would make more sense to spread it out.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 27, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> *That's the handout to those on means-tested benefits*, is the energy  handout the same? It would make more sense to spread it out.



Oh, so it is. The £400 will be credited to electric accounts in one amount, in October.


----------



## contadino (May 27, 2022)

This is really riling me. We have the highest tax burden since WWII, and are having to shoulder the effects of really shit government decisions over the last decade in the form of high energy bills. They begrudgingly throw some crumbs our way and everyone thinks they've saved the day. The front pages of the papers this morning are pitiful.


----------



## Chilli.s (May 27, 2022)

And the lowest state pensions too

(lowest of similar economies)


----------



## Ranbay (May 27, 2022)

Looking forward to the extra £400 at my holiday home in West Wales which is empty 50 weeks a year!


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Just got an e-mail from OVO headed - *Let’s bring your account back on track* - and I was actually fairly excited that they had finally resolved my complaint about the ridiculous over estimating of my electricity usage, after all they've had at least half a dozen meter readings since January, including two photos of the meter readings. But, no...[they wanted me to increase my DD]
> 
> Now, they know there's a dispute and when they last increased the DD to £179, it took 20 minutes arguing on the phone before they agreed to reduce it back to £125, which is still more than it should be. PLUS they said they would put a stop on my account, so I wouldn't receive further e-mails like this, and they wouldn't change my DD again without my agreement until my complaint is resolved, yet the e-mail continues...
> 
> ...



In reply to their e-mail on 17/5/22 suggesting I should put my DD up to £185, and if I didn't they would, I replied...



> This account is disputed, the matter is with your complaints department, who agreed to resolve it by next Monday, otherwise the complaint goes into the energy ombudsman.
> 
> When I last spoke to OVO to get the DD reduced back to £125, I was told some sort of stop would be put on the system, so I wouldn't receive such nonsense that's contained in the e-mail below, nor would OVO look to change my DD until the dispute is resolved.
> 
> Should I get notice that you are increasing the DD, I'll simply cancelled it, because this is beyond ridiculous!



The complaint did go into the energy ombudsman on Mon. 23/5/22, and guess what?

Yep, I've received an e-mail just now that they have increased my DD to £185.   

So I am cancelling the DD.


----------



## Cat Fan (May 27, 2022)

I've run up a large debit balance, largely because my monthly DD was too low over winter.

I want to increase my monthly DD to pay it back gradually. It's currently £60. The minimum I am "allowed" to change it to is over £300.

They really need to fix their estimated usage algorithm.

So I'm just going to leave the DD at £60 as they're not forcing the issue.


----------



## platinumsage (May 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> In reply to their e-mail on 17/5/22 suggesting I should put my DD up to £185, and if I didn't they would, I replied...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That puts me off switching to Ovo, which I was considering.

EON seem to let you enter whatever value you want for your monthly debit, and if it’s not enough they’ll invite you to make one-off payments occasionally to catch up.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 27, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> I've run up a large debit balance, largely because my monthly DD was too low over winter.
> 
> I want to increase my monthly DD to pay it back gradually. It's currently £60. The minimum I am "allowed" to change it to is over £300.
> 
> ...



Which supplier is that & how much is the debit?


----------



## Cat Fan (May 27, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> That puts me off switching to Ovo, which I was considering.
> 
> EON seem to let you enter whatever value you want for your monthly debit, and if it’s not enough they’ll invite you to make one-off payments occasionally to catch up.


It genuinely seems very silly that Shell won't let me increase DD by less than a full £250, but it's only them who are losing out from this.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 27, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> That puts me off switching to Ovo, which I was considering.
> 
> EON seem to let you enter whatever value you want for your monthly debit, and if it’s not enough they’ll invite you to make one-off payments occasionally to catch up.



I tried to changed it back to £125 online, but it would only allow me to increase it further from £185 to a maximum of £2000 pm, that's proper taking the piss, innit?


----------



## Cat Fan (May 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I tried to changed it back to £125 online, but it would only allow me to increase it further from £185 to a maximum of £2000 pm, that's proper taking the piss, innit?


That's absurd, there is no world in which £2000 is going to be the right answer.

The min/max DD amount should be properly regulated, but seems the energy regulator is completely hopeless.


----------



## WouldBe (May 27, 2022)

Got my £150 back from the council.


----------



## platinumsage (May 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I tried to changed it back to £125 online, but it would only allow me to increase it further from £185 to a maximum of £2000 pm, that's proper taking the piss, innit?



Sounds like they think you need £185. Perhaps you think £125 is 1/12th of your projected annual usage, whereas they think the £125 is for a spring/summer month and doesn't account for increased use in winter?


----------



## two sheds (May 27, 2022)

Just had heat pump bloke round. Very pleasant, had a nice chat. Apparently the grants don't cover air-air heat pumps, only air-water which would be fucking useless for me. 

It looks like I need a mini-split type though, outside unit with very small diameter pipe going to internal unit at the bottom of the stairs and another similar pipe  up to the room upstairs where I spend evenings. Would be quite unobtrusive I think. He's getting back to me with quote. Anyway won't think of scheduling before October or November assuming autumn is as mild this year as it has been. As I say I've got a winter's worth of wood still so may postpone to next year.

I should add some more loft insulation really, only 100mm at moment. Trouble is there's no room to get up into the attic so I might need some insulation rolls and a long stick.


----------



## WouldBe (May 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I should add some more loft insulation really, only 100mm at moment. Trouble is there's no room to get up into the attic so I might need some insulation rolls and a long stick.


Oof. Should be about 275mm. Will make a big difference if you can do it.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 27, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Sounds like they think you need £185. Perhaps you think £125 is 1/12th of your projected annual usage, whereas they think the £125 is for a spring/summer month and doesn't account for increased use in winter?



I know £125 is about right all year round, as I worked out what I used in the month up to 21/5, at the new rates and including standing charges & VAT it was £75, they think it was £115, over 50% more.

Its the problem with the over estimating of my electric, which they inherited from SSE, and I've been trying to resolve since 26/1. My meter reading inputted on their site was 14420 on the 21/5 and I had used 140.65Kkwh in the month, once again they totally ignored that and estimated I used 259.00kwh with a meter reading of 18256.

That meter reading is out by 3836Kkwh or around 2 years ahead of where I am, as I use under 2000Kkwh per year!


----------



## two sheds (May 27, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Oof. Should be about 275mm. Will make a big difference if you can do it.


ta  I was assuming it should be 180 mm  

I may do it myself with a long pointy stick although am not hugely looking forward to it. I presume I have to keep a bit away from the eaves. 

Just had a quick check  and an extra 200mm will cost about £800  It's sheeps wool and I thought wool was really cheap - Earthwool looks about a quarter of that price but not keen on mineral fibres


----------



## platinumsage (May 27, 2022)

From what I read a while ago the difference between 100mm and 270mm isn't necessarily particularly massive in comparison to other things you can spend the money on, such as secondary glazing or whatever. I suppose it depends on the price of insulation for you and how easy it is to do it properly. And you do really need to do it properly as a few gaps here and there will render it all pretty pointless, as the warm air will funnel up through the gaps.

A big benefit of rockwool over recycled plastic fibre or sheep's wool is that it won't burn in a fire.


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## two sheds (May 27, 2022)

> *Wool* does not support combustion and will extinguish itself in the event of *fire* *Sheep* *Wool* *Insulation* does not settle due to the high elasticity of the *wool* fibres ensuring no loss of performance over time Performance Benefits


according to the Sheep Wool Insulation Board. AND I see claims that sheep don't burn which I think clinches it  

It's clothes moths I'm chiefly concerned about


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 27, 2022)

I was telling a mate about my woes with SSE & OVO earlier, and she pointed out that OVO had actually taken over the SSE retail business back at the start of 2020, despite me only being transferred to OVO's systems in Jan. this year.

So, I've just googled, and fuck me sideways, they did take full control in Jan. 2020 and were just operating under the SSE brand whilst they slowly migrated customers over to their own systems so as to avoid problems. < [laughs hysterically.]

Therefore the problem of grossly over estimating my electric usage that started in 2021 and ignoring the figures taken by an actual meter reader, wasn't down to SSE after all, but totally down to OVO operating under the SSE brand. 

So, what's all this nonsense about opening a dispute with SSE, as if it was a totally separate business, when in fact it was actually part of OVO for the entire period when things went wrong for me, and therefore an internal problem?

Google also returned various other interesting links, there's me pissed off with my account showing a £200 debit when I know I am credit by hundreds of pounds, this poor SSE/OVO customer had their debit soar to almost £19k. 


> https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...nce-says-i-that-owe-ovo-nearly-19000#comments
> *I don’t have a smart meter so I take regular readings and enter them on to my online account with SSE. Last year I was in credit, so SSE reduced my monthly direct debit from £71 to £53. By autumn I realised this was falling short.
> Due to coronavirus and lockdowns, my energy consumption was clearly higher, as I have been working from home and my estimated February bill showed a £585 deficit. I queried this, but was told that it was accurate. My direct debits were tripled to £147 last month, but when I submitted my most recent meter reading the debt soared to nearly £19,000. This is clearly insane, and yet I can’t get through to the call centre and have had no response to emails. **LINK*



And, from Jan. this year...



> *Ovo Energy is to cut a quarter of its staff as it struggles with soaring energy prices and taking on new customers from a rival supplier. *
> 
> The company told staff on Thursday that around 1,700 people would lose their jobs, with most staff expected to leave through voluntary redundancy.
> 
> Union chiefs accuse Ovo's bosses of “blundering” by pressing ahead with a 2020 acquisition of SSE’s retail customers. Unite said it had warned against the takeover, which tripled Ovo’s annual turnover from £1.5bn to £4.5bn. The job cuts are understood to relate to Ovo’s plans to integrate SSE's business with its own. LINK



So, whilst struggling with transferring former SSE customers to their own systems, they thought it would be a good idea to make a quarter of their staff redundant.


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## WouldBe (May 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Just had a quick check  and an extra 200mm will cost about £800  It's sheeps wool and I thought wool was really cheap - Earthwool looks about a quarter of that price but not keen on mineral fibres


What's the problem with mineral fibres?
Get a paper overall, face mask and some goggles and you should be fine.

A 200mm roll of knauf loft insulation is £25 from Wickes.


----------



## two sheds (May 27, 2022)

got to move a fair bit of stuff down from attic but yes that looks much more doable ta


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 27, 2022)

So, now I've received an e-mail from OVO that my bank has informed them that I've cancelled my DD and threatening me with higher rates, this is just taking the piss...



> *It costs less to pay by Direct Debit on your variable plan*​This is because it’s cheaper for us to manage your account when you pay that way.



Manage my account? I doubt they can even manage to find their own arseholes, my reply -

Seems as OVO has ignored every phone call I've had with your staff, totalling almost 2 hours wasted, and every e-mail I've sent you, since 26th January, and that's why the matter in now in the hands of the energy ombudsman, my gut response to this nonsense is basically two words, can you guess what they are?

Clue, the second word is 'off'.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (May 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I know £125 is about right all year round, as I worked out what I used in the month up to 21/5, at the new rates and including standing charges & VAT it was £75, they think it was £115, over 50% more.
> 
> Its the problem with the over estimating of my electric, which they inherited from SSE, and I've been trying to resolve since 26/1. My meter reading inputted on their site was 14420 on the 21/5 and I had used 140.65Kkwh in the month, once again they totally ignored that and estimated I used 259.00kwh with a meter reading of 18256.
> 
> That meter reading is out by 3836Kkwh or around 2 years ahead of where I am, as I use under 2000Kkwh per year!


I hope you remembered to mention the high stress and detrimental effect to your mental health in your complaint.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 27, 2022)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> I hope you remembered to mention the high stress and detrimental effect to your mental health in your complaint.



I did in my complaint to the energy ombudsman, and asked for a reasonable minimum of £150 in compensation, tomorrow I'll update my complaint and suggest that should be now be £200.

I doubt I'll get that much, but if you don't ask...


----------



## WouldBe (May 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I did in my complaint to the energy ombudsman, and asked for a reasonable minimum of £150 in compensation, tomorrow I'll update my complaint and suggest that should be now be £200.
> 
> I doubt I'll get that much, but if you don't ask...


Ovo energy are regulated by the FCA. Might be worth putting in a complaint to them as well. They won't be able to tell you what they are doing about it but will put a note on their record.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 27, 2022)

blargh.

co-op / octopus have caught up with me.

it's going up from 67 to 112 quid a month.


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## CH1 (May 29, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> So, now I've received an e-mail from OVO that my bank has informed them that I've cancelled my DD and threatening me with higher rates, this is just taking the piss...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did mention up thread that energy suppliers are of the opinion that they can charge £40 per fuel per year extra if you're not on DD.
Maybe you should consider a supplier that charges on the actual reading rather than maintain your trench war with Ovo - for which I have every sympathy, having been through it myself. Funnily enough SSE used to allow a variable DD based on quarterly meter readings, but I can't see any such option for Ovo.

As I commented before Shell do variable direct debits - based on monthly meter readings. I loive in a medium large house built in 1867 so you may find my bill shocking.

 My last monthly bill  was £203.75 for April PLUS an arear carried forward of £72.52 = £276.27 which was debited on 18th May, 15 days after the date of the bill.

Obviously I'm expecting a lower bill this month, but if you think about it the companies are taking a lot on trust if they think people are going to cough up £400 each month  - or more - for December and January. 

I would imagine that the option of British Gas or EDF must still remain? But the penalty for default would be a key meter?


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## two sheds (May 29, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I did mention up thread that energy suppliers are of the opinion that they can charge £40 per fuel per year extra if you're not on DD.


yep this


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## cupid_stunt (May 29, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I did mention up thread that energy suppliers are of the opinion that they can charge £40 per fuel per year extra if you're not on DD.
> Maybe you should consider a supplier that charges on the actual reading rather than maintain your trench war with Ovo - for which I have every sympathy, having been through it myself. Funnily enough SSE used to allow a variable DD based on quarterly meter readings, but I can't see any such option for Ovo.



I don't expect to pay more, I've already updated my complaint to the ombudsman and asked that any extra charges between the DD being cancelled & the matter being resolved are included in the settlement.

When it is resolved I'll set-up a new DD and get smart meters installed, which will prevent further estimated meter reading problems.

I can't switch suppliers until the matter is resolved, because they think my account is in debit, rather than credit, so I would have to settle that before switching. Also, they are the best deal, according to the money saving expert site, I should be paying £126 pm, the next cheapest are both e-on & Sainsburys at £131 pm, so £60 more per year.


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## Cat Fan (May 29, 2022)

The people on here are quite knowledgeable.

Last time our family was away from home all day we still used 1.5kWh of electricity somehow.

Is that a lot? Is it just the fridge? Genuinely asking the question


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## two sheds (May 29, 2022)

Yep that's a lot: old fridge, old freezer but more likely immersion heater left on?


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## alex_ (May 29, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yep that's a lot: old fridge, old freezer but more likely immersion heater left on?



For ref a that’s like 15 old electric 100W lightbulbs - the ones which burn your fingers.


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## platinumsage (May 29, 2022)

Also it’s like boiling a kettle continuously for half an hour, or leaving an LED bulb on for 10 days.


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## prunus (May 29, 2022)

alex_ said:


> For ref a that’s like 15 old electric 100W lightbulbs - the ones which burn your fingers.



On for one hour, or one on for 15 hours. Or a 60w incandescent bulb on for 24 hours. Check cellar, attic?


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## Kevbad the Bad (May 29, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> The people on here are quite knowledgeable.
> 
> Last time our family was away from home all day we still used 1.5kWh of electricity somehow.
> 
> Is that a lot? Is it just the fridge? Genuinely asking the question


You say "all day", but were you at home in the evening?


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## alex_ (May 29, 2022)

prunus said:


> On for one hour, or one on for 15 hours. Or a 60w incandescent bulb on for 24 hours. Check cellar, attic?



Every hour.

As someone said up thread - this is either a bad old appliance or a heater.

For ref - on the new electric rates it’s now costing you something like 45p per hour - that’s more than a tenner a day. This doesn’t sound right as it means your electricity bill is huge.


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## AnnaKarpik (May 29, 2022)

I've just checked my data and we use 3.2 kwh when the house is empty - that is just the fridge freezer!
And no, nothing left on, and no, not an old appliance. Or not very, 2017.


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## CH1 (May 29, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> The people on here are quite knowledgeable.
> 
> Last time our family was away from home all day we still used 1.5kWh of electricity somehow.
> 
> Is that a lot? Is it just the fridge? Genuinely asking the question


My fridge does use quite a lot. You can see on the OWL meter when it cuts in and out.  At least doubled consumption of electricity when it's on.


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## CH1 (May 29, 2022)

alex_ said:


> For ref a that’s like 15 old electric 100W lightbulbs - the ones which burn your fingers.


From my o-level physics (SI units by the way in 1970!) 1.5 kWh could be 1.5 kW for a hour or 150W for 10 hours. They said for a day, which could be 24 hours - ie more like 60w for 24 hours.
Surely the formula we are commenting on is kWh = V × I × t


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## two sheds (May 29, 2022)

"According to calculations by Which?, this ultra-efficient fridge-freezer should only cost you about £30 a year to run."

Although the  most energy efficient (huge) ones can cost about £1500  There has to be a good cheapish middle ground.


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## alex_ (May 29, 2022)

CH1 said:


> From my o-level physics (SI units by the way in 1970!) 1.5 kWh could be 1.5 kW for a hour or 150W for 10 hours. They said for a day, which could be 24 hours - ie more like 60w for 24 hours.
> Surely the formula we are commenting on is kWh = V × I × t



I misread the post - you are correct.


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## High Voltage (May 29, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> I've just checked my data and we use 3.2 kwh when the house is empty - that is just the fridge freezer!
> And no, nothing left on, and no, not an old appliance. Or not very, 2017.



Well, surprise, surprise, I've amassed a LOT of data and I've put it in a spread sheet so I can play around with daily usage and I'm fairly happy with the numbers I've got in there, they work and allow me to fairly accurately predict usage, certainly to within .5KW in a 24hr period

Single biggest daily usage is the fridge freezer and that uses "about" 1KW / day (24 hr period) - there's nothing I can do about that, that's just a thing

BUT

A week or so ago, me and Mrs Voltz were out for most of the day, I went round before we went out and checked that all the "stand by" plugs were off at the wall, so proper off . . . our daily (24hr) usage was 2KW, which included the fridge freezer so there's "about" an additional 1KW being used in the house

I've measured pretty much everything around the house using plug in meters and I know that tea and toaster (2 slices) uses .23KW
The router etc uses .12KW per day
We have a cat water drinking fountain and 2 auto cat feeders and they use, combined, .2KW
We have "some" plugs which are left on . . . because they are, and they use, combined AND rounded up, .5KW
That gives me our daily usage of, as near as dammit, 2KW - which could be reduced to an absolute rock bottom of 1.5KW'ish if push really did come to shove


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## MrCurry (May 29, 2022)

1.5kWh in a day isn’t so excessive IMHO. Our house seems to get thru 3kWh per day when we are away on holiday with everything allegedly “switched off”. There are some things hard wired into mains supply which you can’t switch off and if you pull the main fuse then the house alarm would stop working once its battery runs down. Plus we have some outdoor lighting / PIR security lamps which I wouldn’t want to be off all night, so I guess their consumption is part of that figure. 

Quiescent consumption always seems to add up to more than you expect IME.


----------



## High Voltage (May 29, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> 1.5kWh in a day isn’t so excessive IMHO. Our house seems to get thru 3kWh per day when we are away on holiday with everything allegedly “switched off”. There are some things hard wired into mains supply which you can’t switch off and if you pull the main fuse then the house alarm would stop working once its battery runs down. Plus we have some outdoor lighting / PIR security lamps which I wouldn’t want to be off all night, so I guess their consumption is part of that figure.
> 
> Quiescent consumption always seems to add up to more than you expect IME.


It's bloody hard to track down usage, tbh. I freely admit to driving Mrs Voltz to drink (she's yet to thank me for that by the way) trying to find where the usage was going.

The combined use of:-

Owl meter (actually over reads by "about" 1.5KW / day so 50KW / month but for a quick and dirty figure it's good enough)
Plug in meters
Actually checking, daily, the consumer unit reading, that's what the bill is based on, so that's the one that matters in the end
Got me to as near as dammit a working number, but even then I've had to "round up" several values from, say, 0.08KW is rounded up to 0.1KW for ease of "in my head" maths on plugs that had such a low reading I was having to take the total over 10 days and divide for a daily number


----------



## Cat Fan (May 29, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> You say "all day", but were you at home in the evening?


No, away for the weekend


----------



## Cat Fan (May 29, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Every hour.
> 
> As someone said up thread - this is either a bad old appliance or a heater.
> 
> For ref - on the new electric rates it’s now costing you something like 45p per hour - that’s more than a tenner a day. This doesn’t sound right as it means your electricity bill is huge.


1.5kWh used for the whole day, not per hour


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## Kevbad the Bad (May 29, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> No, away for the weekend


We were away for a fortnight in April. Heating and water turned off. The only things left on were fridge and freezer, router for the internet and TV on standby (recording stuff). Smart meters, landline phone and stuff like that. Nothing else we can think of. We used between 1.3 and 1.7 KWh. So very similar to you.


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## Cat Fan (May 29, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> We were away for a fortnight in April. Heating and water turned off. The only things left on were fridge and freezer, router for the internet and TV on standby (recording stuff). Smart meters, landline phone and stuff like that. Nothing else we can think of. We used between 1.3 and 1.7 KWh. So very similar to you.


Cool, that's reassuring. We had router on and TV on standby as well. Maybe next time I'll experiment by turning the router off and see if it helps.

That 1.5 minimum equals 77p (including standing charge). So £23 a month before switching anything on.


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## cupid_stunt (May 29, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> It's bloody hard to track down usage, tbh. I freely admit to driving Mrs Voltz to drink (she's yet to thank me for that by the way) trying to find where the usage was going.





Poor (((izz)))


----------



## WouldBe (May 29, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> Cool, that's reassuring. We had router on and TV on standby as well. Maybe next time I'll experiment by turning the router off and see if it helps.
> 
> That 1.5 minimum equals 77p (including standing charge). So £23 a month before switching anything on.


But what would the cost be timewise and hassle if you had to buy food fresh each day instead of keeping it in the fridge or freezer?


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 1, 2022)

So, I've sent a total of 6 e-mails to OVO, the first on 21st March, every time I get an auto-reply saying they are taking longer than usual to respond and it'll will take 5-days, yet never has there been a response, until today.



> I’m Claire, a Customer Service Advisor here at OVO.
> 
> I have had a read through your emails and I can only apologise for the service you have received so far. As this has gone to the Ombudsman, we cannot discuss this complaint further until the decision has been made regarding your complaint.
> 
> I'm sorry for any frustration caused. I hope this helps and if you have any more questions please feel free to ring us on 0330 303 5063 or respond to this email.



So finally after 10 bloody weeks someone has read my e-mails, and actually apologised, but somewhat pointless as it's with the ombudsman now. 

Then to add insult to injury, a 'how did we do?' e-mail arrives, unbelievable, at least I had some fun with that!


----------



## two sheds (Jun 1, 2022)

Jesus, they didn't want to set it right and then let the ombudsman know it's been settled?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Jesus, they didn't want to set it right and then let the ombudsman know it's been settled?



TBF as it's been escalated by the ombudsman I assume it's now being dealt with by someone far higher up than a 'Customer Service Advisor', and there's also probably rules in place that OVO has to deal with the ombudsman once they are involved, so I am not that surprised.

It's the fact that it's taken over 10 weeks, rather than 5 days, to even read my e-mails that pisses me off.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 1, 2022)

It's hardly surprising that energy companies are dealing with even longer than usual backlogs at the moment.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> TBF as it's been escalated by the ombudsman I assume it's now being dealt with by someone far higher up than a 'Customer Service Advisor', and there's also probably rules in place that OVO has to deal with the ombudsman once they are involved, so I am not that surprised.
> 
> It's the fact that it's taken over 10 weeks, rather than 5 days, to even read my e-mails that pisses me off.


I too felt as though I was knocking my head against a brick wall - but the icing on the cake what when they blocked a change to another supplier unless I supplied a photo of my meters to prove my meter readings were correct.

And that was BEFORE these price increases!


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 1, 2022)

Shell have just emailed me to tell me they're lowing my direct debit. I specifically put it up to cover the inevitable price hikes. Next they'll be telling me I'm not paying enough.


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## CH1 (Jun 1, 2022)

skyscraper101 said:


> Shell have just emailed me to tell me they're lowing my direct debit. I specifically put it up to cover the inevitable price hikes. Next they'll be telling me I'm not paying enough.


You can have "Variable Direct Debit" with Shell. Then they charge for what you have used.
Set up in the account part of the website.

Personally I'd rather save in the bank than with my energy supplier - up to you.


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## skyscraper101 (Jun 1, 2022)

CH1 said:


> You can have "Variable Direct Debit" with Shell. Then they charge for what you have used.
> Set up in the account part of the website.
> 
> Personally I'd rather save in the bank than with my energy supplier - up to you.



I'd rather just pay a little over what is currently required to cushion the blow come winter. In practical terms it doesn't matter if its sat in the bank but it makes budgeting easier if it can just sit with them.


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## platinumsage (Jun 1, 2022)

Don't forget to account for the £400 rebate when setting your DD.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Jun 1, 2022)

that £400 rebate covers me for 10+ month as my current monthly DD is £37.5.
But then this will go up again in November so maybe just 5 months by then.


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## Cat Fan (Jun 1, 2022)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> that £400 rebate covers me for 10+ month as my current monthly DD is £37.5.
> But then this will go up again in November so maybe just 5 months by then.


Monthly DD of £37.5 is impressively low. Do you consciously try to save energy as much as possible?


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## MickiQ (Jun 1, 2022)

I'm pretty certain that when the £400 gets credited to folks accounts come October few if any people DD's will go down. The cap is going to rise again come October by roughly the same amount it rose in April .All that is likely to happen for most is that DD's will stay at what they are now and the handout covers the price rise.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Jun 1, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> Monthly DD of £37.5 is impressively low. Do you consciously try to save energy as much as possible?


I live in a recent build (2015) with Electricity only, hot water and heating are from a central plant and this adds another £12.50 a month; I rarely need to put the heating on so it is mostly the standing charge.
I do turn off everything at the plugs when away apart from the fridge, freezer and the cooker so I can check the clock matches when I get back.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 2, 2022)

So when OVO put up my DD to £185, and I couldn't change it back to £125, I cancelled it. My brother suggested I set-up a new DD at £125 and see if that works, and it did, so fuck their system! 

But despite having not missed a payment, they now think I should be paying £210, the mad bastards.


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## CH1 (Jun 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> So when OVO put up my DD to £185, and I couldn't change it back to £125, I cancelled it. My brother suggested I set-up a new DD at £125 and see if that works, and it did, so fuck their system!
> 
> But despite having not missed a payment, they now think I should be paying £210, the mad bastards.
> 
> View attachment 325131


I wonder if they abide by OFGEM recommendations about repaying surpluses?
The way they are going on they might end up Britain's second nationalised gas and electric supplier after Bulb








						I work for Bulb and its fate has convinced me the energy sector should be nationalised
					

The fact that the company's continued operations are being paid for by the UK government shows how straightforward the process could be




					inews.co.uk


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jun 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> So when OVO put up my DD to £185, and I couldn't change it back to £125, I cancelled it. My brother suggested I set-up a new DD at £125 and see if that works, and it did, so fuck their system!
> 
> But despite having not missed a payment, they now think I should be paying £210, the mad bastards.
> 
> View attachment 325131



I never trust the fuckers with a direct debit and estimated billing. Best thing about a smart meter is you can just pay what you owe each month, but I used take readings.


----------



## High Voltage (Jun 2, 2022)

I'm hoping that the lower level will be pretty much continuous from now until September / October this year - I can't see any reason why it shouldn't do so


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 2, 2022)

I forgot about the usage graphs, this is my electric one, what OVO thinks I am using, whereas the red lines are my actual usage based on the meter readings I've supplied, and they continue to ignore.


----------



## High Voltage (Jun 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I forgot about the usage graphs, this is my electric one, what OVO thinks I am using, whereas the red lines are my actual usage based on the meter readings I've supplied, and they continue to ignore.
> 
> View attachment 325190


In all the excitement of your over-billing saga I lost track of the actual usage - without going into too much detail that CAN'T be only for a house, can it?? or is it some business usage - or are you, generously, paying for the entire street??


----------



## High Voltage (Jun 2, 2022)

OR

I could just do the maths and realise that your usage is "about" where ours is, just that the graphics look different and I mis read the numbers

I'll shut up now


----------



## High Voltage (Jun 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt actually, no I won't - even your actual usage is "about" twice what ours is for the last 2-3 months, does that sound about right??


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 2, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> cupid_stunt actually, no I won't - even your actual usage is "about" twice what ours is for the last 2-3 months, does that sound about right??



I forget what you usage is, mine in May was 150Kwh / £42.12 + vat (not inc. standing charges), and I used £14.65 + vat in gas for hot water and a couple of mornings when the CH was used for a few minutes,

So, basically 5Kwh per day in electric, is that high?

ETA - just found this...


High Voltage said:


> So far, this month, our LOWEST daily figure has been 6.2KWh and that's basically, background usage. NO hot water heating, no dishwasher, no washer/dryer, no underfloor heating, no oven usage. The fridge freezer uses 1KWh / day, a shower "may" use 1KWh, kettle/toaster used during the day .5KWh



So, I am using less than you, not "about" twice.


----------



## High Voltage (Jun 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I forget what you usage is, mine in May was 150Kwh / £42.12 + vat (not inc. standing charges), and I used £14.65 + vat in gas for hot water and a couple of mornings when the CH was used for a few minutes,
> 
> So, basically 5Kwh per day in electric, is that high?
> 
> ...



Not if you read YOUR usage (which is measured in KWh) as reading in £'s as ours is

So of course £60'odd for the month is HALF your 150KWh because 2 x £60 is only £120 against your 150KWh <MASSIVE face palm>

And I'm allowed to vote and shit like this


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 2, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Not if you read YOUR usage (which is measured in KWh) as reading in £'s as ours is
> 
> So of course £60'odd for the month is HALF your 150KWh because 2 x £60 is only £120 against your 150KWh <MASSIVE face palm>
> 
> And I'm allowed to vote and shit like this



You had me totally confused there, I thought it was me going mad, I am relieved that its actually you that's bonkers. 

izz, you need to read the last few posts, and then take the piss out of him.


----------



## cybershot (Jun 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> It's hardly surprising that energy companies are dealing with even longer than usual backlogs at the moment.



Yet they are still making money and don't employ more people or at least employ agency workers to help with the backlog.


----------



## scifisam (Jun 2, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> Someone has drilled the lock out so back to showering at work for the moment. A witch hunt is in progress. In the meantime I have discovered that I'm not getting the £150 council tax payment to help with energy bills since my council tax is rolled in with my rent it is going to my landlord so he is getting £750 out of our block of flats whilst we get stuck with the big energy bills. Another bastard going up against  the wall come the revolution.
> He owns something like 30 or so houses as well as half the flats in my block, don't know if he includes council tax in the rent in his house though, the bastard will  be quids in if he does.



Are you HMOs or flats occupied by solo people/couples/families? If you're in an HMO the landlord can't get the money (legally, anyway, and they probably would notice). As the tenant you have to apply for a discretionary payment - don't know how likely it is to be paid.


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## gentlegreen (Jun 5, 2022)

As a detour, I was just watching a video about Americans not using kettles because 110volt mains means kettles are underpowered, and for science I actually boiled 250ml of water in my Russel Hobbs "220-240v  2520-3000 watts" kettle and it took 50 seconds - meaning my kettle is only delivering 1680 watts ...


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## Storm Fox (Jun 5, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> As a detour, I was just watching a video about Americans not using kettles because 110volt mains means kettles are underpowered, and for science I actually boiled 250ml of water in my Russel Hobbs "220-240v  2520-3000 watts" kettle and it took 50 seconds - meaning my kettle is only delivering 1680 watts ...



He is a great YouTuber well worth watching.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 5, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> As a detour, I was just watching a video about Americans not using kettles because 110volt mains means kettles are underpowered, and for science I actually boiled 250ml of water in my Russel Hobbs "220-240v  2520-3000 watts" kettle and it took 50 seconds - meaning my kettle is only delivering 1680 watts ...



how are you calculating that?


----------



## gentlegreen (Jun 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> how are you calculating that?


0.25litres  x 4200 x 80C = 84KJ  / 50 seconds = 1680 watts

EDIT:-
OK my water is apparently 17 degrees - so it's 0.25 x 4200 x 83 = 87.14KJ  / 50 = 1743 watts


----------



## two sheds (Jun 5, 2022)

interesting but surprising, I checked my 3 kW kettle and it was indeed 3 kW I've now changed to using my old metal whistling kettle on the induction hob because it's only 800W and takes longer so more of it is supplied by the solar panels. I must try that calculation.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jun 5, 2022)

The bottom line I get from that video is people have weird priorities and can't walk and chew gum simultaneously and in the main drink appealingly bad coffee and tea for the sake of speed / convenience.
The last time I timed it, it takes over a minute to hand-grind my coffee beans - but I'm usually staring at a screen and even clicking on stuff intermittently.
I also only eat home-baked bread, but that takes me all of two minutes just over once a week to weigh the ingredients into the pan.


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## danski (Jun 5, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> 0.25litres  x 4200 x 80C = 84KJ  / 50 seconds = 1680 watts
> 
> EDIT:-
> OK my water is apparently 17 degrees - so it's 0.25 x 4200 x 83 = 87.14KJ  / 50 = 1743 watts


Surely it's based on the resistance of your element? The actual heating of the water will have variables and losses but if you have a circuit of known resistance and known voltage, you'll be able to work out the power.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jun 5, 2022)

danski said:


> Surely it's based on the resistance of your element? The actual heating of the water will have variables and losses but if you have a circuit of known resistance and known voltage, you'll be able to work out the power.


Even the carefully-chosen metal of the element has resistivity - i.e its resistance will increase as it warms - so the stated figure on the base plate is probably for the switch-on surge.

The only losses will be through not putting an insulating jacket over the kettle.
The water's chemistry doesn't change - of course at 2MJ per KG , leaving it *evaporating *will suck up energy.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 5, 2022)

Plus the thermal mass of the kettle which will be quite small you'd think (as opposed to my metal whistling kettle). Your figures did look right when I checked them (for what that's worth  ).


----------



## gentlegreen (Jun 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Plus the thermal mass of the kettle which will be quite small you'd think (as opposed to my metal whistling kettle). Your figures did look right when I checked them (for what that's worth  ).


I once annoyed a physics tutor by pointing out that kettles made a noise and were also 50Hz radio transmitters - albeit ridiculously ineffective ones 

Yes I ought to weigh the kettle ..


----------



## two sheds (Jun 5, 2022)

I do have a kettle cosy which is good when I boil too much water, although better would be to measure the amount I boil each time.


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## gentlegreen (Jun 5, 2022)

1.3 kilos.
Let's assume it's steel ... about 500 KJ / KG / deg C- so 1.3 x 500 x 80 = 52kj
add the water 84kj
= 136000 / 50 = 2.72 KW - oops !


----------



## gentlegreen (Jun 5, 2022)

That's a lot of heat wasted due to the mass of the kettle - so a plastic one would be a lot better...
I must have wasted a lot of energy over the years boiling water for one !


----------



## two sheds (Jun 5, 2022)

Just tried and it took 2 minutes exactly, also from 17C for 1/2 pint mug

0.25 x 4200 x 83 = 87.14KJ  / 120 =726 W, with measured power being 800W so the extra going to heat the kettle.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 5, 2022)

I refuse to take any notice of this, until High Voltage checks out his kettle's usage.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 5, 2022)

Of course when the sun's shining the kettle effectively takes no power at all


----------



## gentlegreen (Jun 5, 2022)

I may use that as a new chatup line ..
"making coffee for two would save 26 KJ "


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 5, 2022)

physics never really was my thing, but doesn't it take the same amount of energy to boil X amount of water from a starting temperature of Y degrees, irrespective of whether it's a low power kettle that does it slowly or a high power kettle that does it quick?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 5, 2022)

yes 

it's just that my 2 kW max solar panels will provide the 800 W of an induction hob while it won't the 3 kW of an electric kettle.

Hence the old saying Mek tay while the sun shines.


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## existentialist (Jun 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> As a detour, I was just watching a video about Americans not using kettles because 110volt mains means kettles are underpowered, and for science I actually boiled 250ml of water in my Russel Hobbs "220-240v  2520-3000 watts" kettle and it took 50 seconds - meaning my kettle is only delivering 1680 watts ...



There are bound to be losses - your kettle isn't particularly well insulated, so it's going to be radiating some of that heat while it's boiling, and any steam that emerges during the process of boiling will represent a net loss of energy to the water in the kettle. So 1680 sounds quite reasonable...

ETA: ah, you'd already got there. Ho hum


----------



## existentialist (Jun 6, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> physics never really was my thing, but doesn't it take the same amount of energy to boil X amount of water from a starting temperature of Y degrees, irrespective of whether it's a low power kettle that does it slowly or a high power kettle that does it quick?


Theoretically, but you have to account for heat losses. Thermodynamics, innit?


----------



## existentialist (Jun 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I may use that as a new chatup line ..
> "making coffee for two would save 26 KJ "


It will make you attractive to a very specific kind of woman .


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## gentlegreen (Jun 6, 2022)

existentialist said:


> It will make you attractive to a very specific kind of woman .


A basic understanding of calorimetry is one of my non-negotiables


----------



## Aladdin (Jun 6, 2022)

And then....there are those of us with gas...


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## gentlegreen (Jun 6, 2022)

existentialist said:


> There are bound to be losses - your kettle isn't particularly well insulated, so it's going to be radiating some of that heat while it's boiling, and any steam that emerges during the process of boiling will represent a net loss of energy to the water in the kettle. So 1680 sounds quite reasonable...
> 
> ETA: ah, you'd already got there. Ho hum


I had this notion that the metal was insignificant - but I'm not ready to go for plastic yet ...

In the past I used to bring a pressure cooker of grain or beans up to pressure and then insulate it with a duvet - and when I make custard on my solid hotplate in a heavy-bottomed pan, I'll switch off and finish the cooking with the stored heat..

It illustrates another benefit of microwave cooking...


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## WouldBe (Jun 6, 2022)

Aladdin said:


> And then....there are those of us with gas...


No need to worry as it's ~5 times cheaper than electric.


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## existentialist (Jun 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I had this notion that the metal was insignificant - but I'm not ready to go for plastic yet ...
> 
> In the past I used to bring a pressure cooker of grain or beans up to pressure and then insulate it with a duvet - and when I make custard on my solid hotplate in a heavy-bottomed pan, I'll switch off and finish the cooking with the stored heat..
> 
> It illustrates another benefit of microwave cooking...


You could do an experiment with a measured quantity of water, a microwave, and a thermometer. I suggest not actually going for a full boil, though, as that is likely to be dangerous, and you're not dessiato. 

My guess is that microwaves are probably less efficient at turning electricity into radiation and thence heat than even the humble kettle.


----------



## High Voltage (Jun 6, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I refuse to take any notice of this, until High Voltage checks out his kettle's usage.


Our kettle, Dualit naturally, uses .13KW to boil the water necessary for my tea (a GOOD two cups) and Mrs Voltzs coffee (a LARGE mug) - this reads as just over 4 cups on the scale on the side of the kettle


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## two sheds (Jun 6, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Theoretically, but you have to account for heat losses. Thermodynamics, innit?


this is true, not huge over a minute or two though I was assuming.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jun 6, 2022)

existentialist said:


> You could do an experiment with a measured quantity of water, a microwave, and a thermometer. I suggest not actually going for a full boil, though, as that is likely to be dangerous, and you're not dessiato.
> 
> My guess is that microwaves are probably less efficient at turning electricity into radiation and thence heat than even the humble kettle.


Magnetrons are apparently 70 percent efficient - but the key thing is we tend to use plastic and glass vessels ...


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## two sheds (Jun 6, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Our kettle, Dualit naturally, uses .13KW to boil the water necessary for my tea (a GOOD two cups) and Mrs Voltzs coffee (a LARGE mug) - this reads as just over 4 cups on the scale on the side of the kettle


You sure? 800 W * 2 minutes for induction =0.03 kWh for 1/2 pint cup including fairly massy steel kettle.

Glad to see we're getting down the essentials of Energy Saving for Britain


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## High Voltage (Jun 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> You sure? 800 W * 2 minutes for induction =0.03 kWh for 1/2 pint cup including fairly massy steel kettle.
> 
> Glad to see we're getting down the essentials of Energy Saving for Britain


that's the reading that the plug in meter gave. and I've repeated the test a few times


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## two sheds (Jun 6, 2022)

strange, my plug in meter confirms 0.034 kWh

But fuck that, my mini fridge has arrived.  It's bigger than the old camping fridge but still fits the space and I switch on in an hour. I've lost remarkably little that's perishable over the last three weeks even in the warm weather by transferring stuff from freezer to a cool box.

Of course Ground Elder is hardcore, last I asked he didn't use a fridge, kept foodstuffs in yer traditional pantry


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## High Voltage (Jun 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> strange, my plug in meter confirms 0.034 kWh


Best guess, I'm boiling four times as much as you, which sounds about right


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## two sheds (Jun 6, 2022)

Aha of course, and what with me boiling only an _environmentally responsible_ amount of water for drinks.


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## existentialist (Jun 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Magnetrons are apparently 70 percent efficient - but the key thing is we tend to use plastic and glass vessels ...


IME, it's all about the power supplies - microwaves have big old transformers in them, which are never 100% efficient, and rectification isn't 100% efficient, either, so I do wonder what the overall plug-to-cavity efficiency works out as, even before we start thinking about vessels, etc...


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## existentialist (Jun 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Aha of course, and what with me boiling only an _environmentally responsible_ amount of water for drinks.


Oh that one really boils my piss (SWIDT? ) - my ex used to stick a good litre and a half into the kettle for one or two cups of tea, and NOTHING I could say would persuade her not to.


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## two sheds (Jun 6, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Oh that one really boils my piss (SWIDT? ) - my ex used to stick a good litre and a half into the kettle for one or two cups of tea, and NOTHING I could say would persuade her not to.


 

I'm not too bad now but it's just too easy to hold the kettle under the tap, which is where the kettle cosy is useful. I must start measuring a cupful though.


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## existentialist (Jun 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I'm not too bad now but it's just too easy to hold the kettle under the tap, which is where the kettle cosy is useful. I must start measuring a cupful though.


After a while, you learn to judge it by weight...


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## Chz (Jun 6, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> No need to worry as it's ~5 times cheaper than electric.


That always bugs me. It's clearly *far* more efficient to use an electric kettle, but the way our power sources are taxed and whatnot still makes it cheaper to use a gas hob. Which is the sort of thing we're supposed to be doing away with to help save the planet and whatnot. It's likely only a matter of time before consumer level gas hobs and stoves are banned. I suspect gas central heating will stick around for a bit longer than that though.


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## two sheds (Jun 6, 2022)

Is it more efficient when generating and distribution losses are accounted for?


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## platinumsage (Jun 6, 2022)

Yeah you have to compare gas under the ground piped to homes to (wind in the air + gas in the ground + uranium in the ground etc) burnt/captured/processed via steam etc to the grid.


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## Chz (Jun 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Is it more efficient when generating and distribution losses are accounted for?


Absolutely - generating and distribution have losses, but they're really quite low in comparison to how much your hob heats your kitchen instead of the water on it. Consider also how much of the grid is renewables now. It was a different story when the back end was all coal and gas anyhow.

Even on a crummy day for generation like today, there's zero coal being burned and under 50% is gas.

Edit: The real takeaway is that the _wholesale_ price of electricity is lower than that of gas. The gov't is bound to move taxes around between them to encourage people to move to electric over time because it's the only way to meet their carbon output obligations.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 6, 2022)

OVO has filed a reply to my complaint with the ombudsman.

They have accepted a meter reading was taken in Oct, '19, and they are proposing to re-issue all SSE bills issued after they took over the retail consumers in Jan. '20, then all bills issued under the OVO name since Jan. 22, thus correcting my meter reading to what it actually is, credit my account with all over-payments, issue an apology and £100 compensation.

On the ombudsman site it's moved from 'Complaint escalated' stage and is now showing it's at 'Prepare Case' stage, two more stages after that - 'Investigate' and 'Decide'.


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## Chz (Jun 6, 2022)

£100 seems chintzy given the hell they've put you through, but I suppose at this stage just having it sorted is blessing enough!


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## CH1 (Jun 6, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OVO has filed a reply to my complaint with the ombudsman.
> 
> They have accepted a meter reading was taken in Oct, '19, and they are proposing to re-issue all SSE bills issued after they took over the retail consumers in Jan. '20, then all bills issued under the OVO name since Jan. 22, thus correcting my meter reading to what it actually is, credit my account with all over-payments, issue an apology and £100 compensation.
> 
> On the ombudsman site it's moved from 'Complaint escalated' stage and is now showing it's at 'Prepare Case' stage, two more stages after that - 'Investigate' and 'Decide'.


sounds as though you are having some effect there.

Meanwhile if anybody's interested in tripling electricity bills still, here is my latest Shell bill - "based on actual readings"

As you will know all energy bills now have to be EIGHT pages by Law, so you get pissed off reading them.
Looking at "your useage compared by year" I have used 25% more kWh of electricity and 350% more gas kWh than May 2020 - so wondering if we have had a relatively mild 202o - or a cold May in 2021.

In any event having an electricity price of 29.632p per unit makes it impossible to economise on that front. Short of doing a Vincent Price and going up and down stairs with a flaming torch.

I could keep the Central heating OFF - but one get's conflicting messaging. I prefer to feel OK rather than miserable.


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## CH1 (Jun 6, 2022)

To give a perspective this is the last 10 months

September/October are on the old very reasonable contract rate.
Then the two government rates.
These amount are not what I actually paid - as I was on a monthly Direct Debit which they kept recalculating as per complaints on here.
My latest bill in the post above matches useage.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I prefer to feel OK rather than miserable.


that choice is going to be removed from everyone as the year progresses


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## CH1 (Jun 6, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> that choice is going to be removed from everyone as the year progresses


You mean paying on meter readings - or leaving the heating on?
As a pensioner my ultimate fear is being bundled off to a nursing home and having the house confiscated.
Which is a bit more catastrophic than leaving the heating on IMHO!


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## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2022)

CH1 said:


> You mean paying on meter readings - or leaving the heating on?
> As a pensioner my ultimate fear is being bundled off to a nursing home and having the house confiscated.
> Which is a bit more catastrophic than leaving the heating on IMHO!


i mean we're all going to feel miserable later this year


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## gentlegreen (Jun 7, 2022)

How could I have forgotten the alternative way to heat water using electricity ?


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## two sheds (Jun 7, 2022)

Coffee-Cutor :

I suppose the difficulty in making a safe(is) version is being able to enclose the electrodes - you'd need a material that doesn't conduct electricity but does conduct heat.

A couple of great comments on the youtube version. 

Will check a couple more of his, ta - very instructive


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jun 7, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> How could I have forgotten the alternative way to heat water using electricity ?



I'd forgotten about those.
They go bang when you forget about them and the water has boiled away.
e2a: the one I had was just a kettle element you plopped in a cup.


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## two sheds (Jun 7, 2022)

As one of the comments wisely noted:

"I think I can just save $3 by just putting a live wire and a neutral wire in my tea, thanks"

or the first comment: 

"We used to make these when I was in the army in South Africa back in the '70s. It consisted of two razor blades (the old style double sided type), some cotton thread or fishing line, 9 match sticks and some lamp flex. You space the blades apart with the match sticks and line and connect the lamp flex. It would boil an average cup of water in a minute. The tea or coffee did however have a slight metallic taste, even though the blades were allegedly stainless steel. We knew what we were doing and it worked great for a couple of weeks, until the platoon thickhead came along with his metal fire bucket (military term for tin mug), plonked it down on the metal table and dropped our heater into it. When he switched it on there was a big flash bang and all the lights in B company went out. Torch light showed water all over the walls, ceiling and table, added to that the bucket was spot welded to the table. Unfortunately the problem was traced back to us, we had our immersion boiler confiscated and stood guard duty for two weeks straight."


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## CH1 (Jun 7, 2022)

gentlegreen two sheds this is an established industrial scale method in Norway, probably other places with Hydropower Electrode boilers and the energy transition - Modern Power Systems
this paragraph I found interesting
"We also believe that the renewables business currently faces a challenge that electrode boilers could help address. Since we entered the market for grid regulation in 2010 we have seen significant growth in renewables on the European power grid. However, when we travel around we notice that many wind turbines are idle, even in windy conditions. The reason for this is mainly old fashioned tax structures that discourage the use of electricity as a heat source or high grid tariffs even when the grid is not busy. For such reasons many GWh of renewable power is wasted every day since it is never produced. So we direct our challenge at politicians to work as hard at establishing a suitable framework for using renewable energy as they did to get renewable generating technology installed."


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## two sheds (Jun 7, 2022)

I thought this was interesting, a couple of years old now but: 









						How AI and machine learning can support the renewable energy transition
					

How artificial intellgience (AI) and machine learning can help renewable energy become more reliable and achieve carbon neutrality by 2050.




					techmonitor.ai
				




Charging car and other batteries overnight will be a good use for renewable power.


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## CH1 (Jun 7, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I thought this was interesting, a couple of years old now but:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Remember storage heaters - designed to use Nuclear Power off-peak?
I had one in my one bedroom fllat on Brixton Hill in the late 70s/early 80s.
The night electricity tariff was de minimis at that time.
I wonder what it is now - post Ukraine energy shock?


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## gentlegreen (Jun 7, 2022)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> I'd forgotten about those.
> They go bang when you forget about them and the water has boiled away.
> e2a: the one I had was just a kettle element you plopped in a cup.


I bought a 2.5KW immersion heater for another purpose and I did once use it when I added too much cold water to my bath ...
And they glow red hot if you take them out of the water !


----------



## gentlegreen (Jun 7, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Remember storage heaters - designed to use Nuclear Power off-peak?


It would have been coal power.
Nuclear is absolutely baseload and we don't have that much of it - but coal-based plants are going to come second in terms of non-restartability ...


----------



## CH1 (Jun 7, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> It would have been coal power.
> Nuclear is absolutely baseload and we don't have that much of it - but coal-based plants are going to come second in terms of non-restartability ...


What? In the 1970s we were overflowing with Magnox reactors - and "White Meters" for storage heaters - which were actually advertised on ITV (Channel 4 & Sky didn't exist BTW)








						Magnox - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## gentlegreen (Jun 7, 2022)

CH1 said:


> What? In the 1970s we were overflowing with Magnox reactors - and "White Meters" for storage heaters - which were actually advertised on ITV (Channel 4 & Sky didn't exist BTW)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK I suppose the push for storage heaters would have been in anticipation of nuclear getting a steadily larger share ...











						A brief history of British Electricity Generation - MyGridGB
					

Britain's free and independant website tracking where electricity comes from and how rapidly it is decarbonising. Sharing easy to read blogs, simple electricity statistics and simulations of a decarbonised grid.




					www.mygridgb.co.uk


----------



## CH1 (Jun 7, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> OK I suppose the push for storage heaters would have been in anticipation of nuclear getting a steadily larger share ...
> 
> View attachment 325961
> 
> ...


What you want to look at actually is a chart showing on-peak and off-peak useage of electricity in England from about 1970 to 1990. And then match this to charts showing nuclear generation by time of day and coal generation by time of day over the corresponding period.

The nuclear base load was important - and they wouldn't have been encouraging people to fit storage heaters if they didn't want to increase the use of off-peak electricity. Heaters were installed by the electricity board (then an arm of the state) who also had to fit a special meter which flipped over to off-peak at midnight and back to on-peak at 7 am (the so-called "Economy Seven" tariff)   

I can vouch for the physical reality of the Sizewell nuclear power station in Suffolk. My Dad took me fishing off there in his little fishing boat. The Sole we caught were enormous and tasty - not because radioactive, but the reactor cooling water was discharged into the sea - thus creating a Mediterranean microclimate.
Likewise I remember going to see the Dungeness power station in Kent as a kid. Seems you can still go on the miniature railway Dungeness Railway Station - RH&DR - Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch Railway
Both Dungerness A and Dungerness B are no longer operational (since 2006 and 2021 respectively).


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## cybershot (Jun 7, 2022)

So Mr MSE is 'suggesting' if you can find a fix between 35%-40% more than the current price cap it 'may' be worth it if you want peace of mind.

I can currently get a deal with e.on that is an existing customer deal that is bang on 30% more.

I crunched the numbers for this deal taking into account I would be paying 30% more for my energy 6 months early, and then calculated 6 months at my current DD and 6 months at 45% more (taking into account a likely rise in January again too) and numbers were pretty much exactly the same over 12 months. (the fixed rate on offer vs sticking at price cap) I think I'll take the risk and stay at the current price cap rather than paying 30% more than I need too, right now.

Any other thoughts on this?



			https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/-are-there-any-cheap--fixed-energy-deals-currently-worth-it--/


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## Cat Fan (Jun 7, 2022)

cybershot said:


> So Mr MSE is 'suggesting' if you can find a fix between 35%-40% more than the current price cap it 'may' be worth it if you want peace of mind.
> 
> I can currently get a deal with e.on that is an existing customer deal that is bang on 30% more.
> 
> ...


The risk with paying more now is the off chance that the government intervenes to stop the cap going up.


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## existentialist (Jun 7, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Remember storage heaters - designed to use Nuclear Power off-peak?
> I had one in my one bedroom fllat on Brixton Hill in the late 70s/early 80s.
> The night electricity tariff was de minimis at that time.
> I wonder what it is now - post Ukraine energy shock?


Mine (Bulb) are:

Day unit rate 31.25p per kWh
Night unit rate 20.37p per kWh


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 7, 2022)

Got a email bill from octopus at tge end of last month. They have already outsourced their chasing to a debt collection outfit in redditch judging by their call this morning. Not an actual escalation to legal stuff but a gentle reminder. The cunts


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## donkyboy (Jun 7, 2022)

My current EDF tariff ends in July. The fixed rate seems to have gone down from £70 the last time I checked a few months back. But £67 is still a lot of money if I go for the fixed rate.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 7, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OVO has filed a reply to my complaint with the ombudsman.
> 
> They have accepted a meter reading was taken in Oct, '19, and they are proposing to re-issue all SSE bills issued after they took over the retail consumers in Jan. '20, then all bills issued under the OVO name since Jan. 22, thus correcting my meter reading to what it actually is, credit my account with all over-payments, issue an apology and £100 compensation.
> 
> On the ombudsman site it's moved from 'Complaint escalated' stage and is now showing it's at 'Prepare Case' stage, two more stages after that - 'Investigate' and 'Decide'.



I got an e-mail from the ombudsman this morning, inviting me to comment on OVO's reply by Sat 11th May, I've made two points.

1- Of course the bills need to be re-issued, but OVO doesn't give any time frame for doing that, despite the fact that it should have been done weeks ago, and hasn't even been done that at this stage, which is causing me further stress. I assume it would be reasonable that this should now be done in a maximum of 2 additional working days.

2 - As you are aware I suggested compensation at £150 in view of the amount of time I've spent on this and the stress it has caused me, so I don't think their offer of just £100 is reasonable. As you are also aware they have continued causing me further problems and stress since I filed my complaint, including breaking pervious promises about not putting up my DD and still not re-issuing bills, so I would ask you to consider a reasonable amount now should be £200.

Well, if you don't ask, you don't get.


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## WouldBe (Jun 7, 2022)

£100 seems to be standard. That's all I've been offered when I'm owed £10k.


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## CH1 (Jun 7, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Mine (Bulb) are:
> 
> Day unit rate 31.25p per kWh
> Night unit rate 20.37p per kWh


so they've cut the discount from about 2/3 to 1/3 looks like - over the years.
But there is still a discount-  so there must be an advantage to the generators in keeping the base load up.
I guess if that ever stopped we'd be finding our street lights going out at midnight!


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## MrCurry (Jun 7, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I got an e-mail from the ombudsman this morning, inviting me to comment on OVO's reply by Sat 11th May, I've made two points.
> 
> 1- Of course the bills need to be re-issued, but OVO doesn't give any time frame for doing that, despite the fact that it should have been done weeks ago, and hasn't even been done that at this stage, which is causing me further stress. I assume it would be reasonable that this should now be done in a maximum of 2 additional working days.
> 
> ...


When I think of all the utility companies which have caused me stress, hassle and consumed endless time with their incompetence over the years, I‘ve clearly missed a trick in not following your approach.  I read some of your posts earlier in the thread and thought to myself you’d not get anywhere with it, but I’m happy to admit I was wrong! Well done


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 7, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> When I think of all the utility companies which have caused me stress, hassle and consumed endless time with their incompetence over the years, I‘ve clearly missed a trick in not following your approach.  I read some of your posts earlier in the thread and thought to myself you’d not get anywhere with it, but I’m happy to admit I was wrong! Well done



Well, I've not had much choice but to deal with it, as it's getting worst month by month.

Currently they think I've used 3800Kwh more than I actually have, which is about 2 years usage I've been over billed for, at a guess somewhere between £600 & £750!

In 2020 they over estimated my usage by around 500Kwh, which should have been corrected with the meter reading in Jan 2021, but it wasn't and they went on to over estimate my usage in 2021 by around 2500Kwh, plus around another 800Kwh so far this year! 

Frankly I would be happy enough to get that sorted plus the £100 extra they've offered, but even more happy if I screw another £50-£100 out of them.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 8, 2022)

Someone at OVO has been sniffing glue again...


How the fuck can I've used over 500kwh of electric in June, just 8 days into the month?


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 8, 2022)

I've added that graph to my complaint on the ombudsman's site, having only slightly toned down my words -

There's something seriously wrong with OVO's systems,  or someone has been sniffing glue, how the hell can I've used over 500kwh of electric in June, just 8 days into the month?


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## magneze (Jun 8, 2022)

Is this a "smart" meter?


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 8, 2022)

magneze said:


> Is this a "smart" meter?



No, this is just OVO ignoring my meter readings and making shit up.


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## weltweit (Jun 8, 2022)

I am still trying to work out what is happening to my electric. It doesn't seem to be getting more expensive though last week I had to top it up a week early though someone had been making much use of an electric strimmer which might have made up the difference. 

The last 3 receipts have changed a bit, but not in any way that I can calculate how much electricity my £50 is buying. We normally spend £10 a week.


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## Cat Fan (Jun 8, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> No, this is just OVO ignoring my meter readings and making shit up.


Hope you can get an extra £100 out of it


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## teqniq (Jun 11, 2022)

Whilst people a looking around for cheaper suppliers the rather well off may be scamming it:









						MPs and lords rake in energy subsidies as millions struggle
					

International trade secretary Anne-Marie Trevelyan and members of the landed gentry are among those to benefit




					www.opendemocracy.net


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## CH1 (Jun 11, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Whilst people a looking around for cheaper suppliers the rather well off may be scamming it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does this subsidy apply to councils?
For example the £30 million revamp of Lambeth Town Hall - did it have new claimable boilers fitted?
Just asking!


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## teqniq (Jun 11, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Does this subsidy apply to councils?
> For example the £30 million revamp of Lambeth Town Hall - did it have new claimable boilers fitted?
> Just asking!


I have no idea, sorry.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 12, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I got an e-mail from the ombudsman this morning, inviting me to comment on OVO's reply by Sat 11th May, I've made two points.
> 
> 1- Of course the bills need to be re-issued, but OVO doesn't give any time frame for doing that, despite the fact that it should have been done weeks ago, and hasn't even been done that at this stage, which is causing me further stress. I assume it would be reasonable that this should now be done in a maximum of 2 additional working days.
> 
> ...



OVO had up to yesterday to respond to my most recent comments, they didn't, so at midnight the ombudsman's system automatically updated the status of my complaint from 'Prepare Case' to the 'Investigate' stage, which shouldn't take longer than 2 weeks before their decision is made. That will be around 5 months since I first contacted OVO, but at least I am getting there.

Meanwhile OVO's glue sniffing department has increased their estimate of usage during June from just over 500kwh on the 8th, to almost 600kwh today, if this carries on, I should be on well over 1000kwh by the end of the month! 

My actual usage during June so far is under 60kwh, so their estimate is basically 10 times what I am actually using.


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## MrCurry (Jun 12, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OVO had up to yesterday to respond to my most recent comments, they didn't, so at midnight the ombudsman's system automatically updated the status of my complaint from 'Prepare Case' to the 'Investigate' stage, which shouldn't take longer than 2 weeks before their decision is made. That will be around 5 months since I first contacted OVO, but at least I am getting there.
> 
> Meanwhile OVO's glue sniffing department has increased their estimate of usage during June from just over 500kwh on the 8th, to almost 600kwh today, if this carries on, I should be on well over 1000kwh by the end of the month!
> 
> ...


They really are just trying to claw in as much money as possible, aren’t they?


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## Cat Fan (Jun 15, 2022)

Argh, Shell have caught up with me, they want to raise my monthly DD by £400. I've immediately changed my payment using the app to the minimum allowed (still+£250 on what I'm paying now).

Then as soon as my account gets back into debit I will switch to using a variable direct debit payment which will mean I only pay what I use each month.


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## Cat Fan (Jun 15, 2022)

Also I love how patronising the app is. When you reduce the monthly payment below recommended it shows an unhappy face and says "you will end up in too much debt".

Personally I think they're mad if they think we're going to use over £5k of energy a year in our two bedroom flat. Monthly usage is around £70 at the moment so what would it have to increase to in winter? £1k a month?


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## High Voltage (Jun 15, 2022)

They're only thinking of you and how you'll "avoid" a nasty surprise come winter


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 15, 2022)

OVO's glue sniffers now have me on 596kwh so far this month, they are going to have to add an extra line to their graph tomorrow to cope with my estimated usage.


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## High Voltage (Jun 15, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OVO's glue sniffers now have me on 596kwh so far this month, they are going to have to add an extra line to their graph tomorrow to cope with my estimated usage.
> 
> View attachment 327373


Hah! you laughed at me and my checking through my 'leccy usage - who's laughing now though??

Seriously mate, using that amount IN SUMMER is criminal, I don't know what your doing, you need to get a handle on that before winter comes or you're going to be in proper trouble


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## prunus (Jun 15, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OVO's glue sniffers now have me on 596kwh so far this month, they are going to have to add an extra line to their graph tomorrow to cope with my estimated usage.
> 
> View attachment 327373



Cupid_stunt's basement, earlier:


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## JimW (Jun 15, 2022)

We have a meter here that is effectively pre-pay, you can top up via an app on your phone. Main box is on a pole opposite the gate at screen lights up when there's less than 100kwh left, so I check it when I do the bins at night. 


Last put in equivalent of fifty quid and it's lasted a good two months. We have several fridges as wife stores tea she sells in big chest ones, charge up two electric vehicles and use loads in cooking, toaster oven and rice cookers. Have switched the heat exchanger system to cooling from its winter underfloor heating mode but not actually used it much yet. All made possible because domestic charge is CNY0.6 or so per kwh, which is about seven pence.


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## Cat Fan (Jun 15, 2022)

JimW said:


> We have a meter here that is effectively pre-pay, you can top up via an app on your phone. Main box is on a pole opposite the gate at screen lights up when there's less than 100kwh left, so I check it when I do the bins at night.
> 
> 
> Last put in equivalent of fifty quid and it's lasted a good two months. We have several fridges as wife stores tea she sells in big chest ones, charge up two electric vehicles and use loads in cooking, toaster oven and rice cookers. Have switched the heat exchanger system to cooling from its winter underfloor heating mode but not actually used it much yet. All made possible because domestic charge is CNY0.6 or so per kwh, which is about seven pence.


Cost of living crisis not such a big worry where you are?


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## High Voltage (Jun 15, 2022)

Probably be cheaper for cupid_stunt to run an extension lead to JimW house than carrying on using OVO


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 15, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Probably be cheaper for cupid_stunt to run an extension lead to JimW house than carrying on using OVO



But I haven't actually used 600kwh, and I am certainly not paying for it.


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## JimW (Jun 15, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> Cost of living crisis not such a big worry where you are?


Always been tough at the bottom and the migrant workers caught up in the lockdowns in Shanghai will be really struggling, but in a village like ours local families have houses they were allocated by the collective and most still plant a fair amount of veg so even if there's not much cash income coming in the pressures are relatively low so long as no-one gets sick. There is also a medical insurance scheme but it's not great for anything major. Those families that have a white collar worker or two are all knocking down their old single storey courtyard compounds like ours and building three floor villas, so clearly not too hard up.


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## bluescreen (Jun 15, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> But I haven't actually used 600kwh, and I am certainly not paying for it.


Are you sure no one's plugged in to mine bitcoin and trying to make up the price shortfall?


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 15, 2022)

bluescreen said:


> Are you sure no one's plugged in to mine bitcoin and trying to make up the price shortfall?



I can assure you, and my meter & I are unanimous in this, that I've only used around 60kwh so far this months, around 4kwh per day.


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## dessiato (Jun 15, 2022)

JimW said:


> We have a meter here that is effectively pre-pay, you can top up via an app on your phone. Main box is on a pole opposite the gate at screen lights up when there's less than 100kwh left, so I check it when I do the bins at night.
> 
> 
> Last put in equivalent of fifty quid and it's lasted a good two months. We have several fridges as wife stores tea she sells in big chest ones, charge up two electric vehicles and use loads in cooking, toaster oven and rice cookers. Have switched the heat exchanger system to cooling from its winter underfloor heating mode but not actually used it much yet. All made possible because domestic charge is CNY0.6 or so per kwh, which is about seven pence.


The government here, and in Portugal have a so-called iberian exemption which means prices are capped. Although the cost is still high it has come down by quite a chunk lately.


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## High Voltage (Jun 15, 2022)

dessiato said:


> The government here, and in Portugal have a so-called iberian exemption which means prices are capped. Although the cost is still high it has come down by quite a chunk lately.


Yep! ours are "capped" in the UK as well - fuck-knows-how-many-% increase in April and a similar massive increase in . . . October(?) - also "capped"


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## bcuster (Jun 15, 2022)

this month will be brutal; i'll go ahead and predict my electricity (normal size single family home) bill will be at least $200 for this month...


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## JimW (Jun 15, 2022)

bcuster said:


> this month will be brutal; i'll go ahead and predict my electricity (normal size single family home) bill will be at least $200 for this month...


Are you somewhere that needs aircon? That really changes the game.


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## NoXion (Jun 15, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I can assure you, and my meter & I are unanimous in this, that I've only used around 60kwh so far this months, around 4kwh per day.



I don't understand why OVO are trying to rip you off like this, especially since you've been fighting it from day one. Surely they must know that if you've been disputing this so stridently, including taking things up with the ombudsman, that you would have objective evidence of how much electricity you're actually using? And that they would thus lose? At this point they have to be losing money pursuing this fool's errand? This makes no damn sense.


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## bcuster (Jun 15, 2022)

JimW said:


> Are you somewhere that needs aircon? That really changes the game.


we most definitely need AC in summer...


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## wemakeyousoundb (Jun 15, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I don't understand why OVO are trying to rip you off like this, especially since you've been fighting it from day one. Surely they must know that if you've been disputing this so stridently, including taking things up with the ombudsman, that you would have objective evidence of how much electricity you're actually using? And that they would thus lose? At this point they have to be losing money pursuing this fool's errand? This makes no damn sense.


I suspect they might be employing ex workers from Lambeth housing benefit office.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 16, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I don't understand why OVO are trying to rip you off like this, especially since you've been fighting it from day one. Surely they must know that if you've been disputing this so stridently, including taking things up with the ombudsman, that you would have objective evidence of how much electricity you're actually using? And that they would thus lose? At this point they have to be losing money pursuing this fool's errand? This makes no damn sense.



I don't think they are trying to rip me off, there just seems a problem with their system when it comes to estimating use, and hopeless staff that don't correct things when they promise to do so. 

And, in respect of June, I've only just noticed something that suggests some other problem with their graph this month, the figure on the 'home page' normally matches the graph you get after clicking on 'view my energy usage'. However this morning it's showing 264kwh so far for June, which is still out by about 200kwh, but more reasonable than the 606kwh now showing on the graph.  🤷‍♂️ 

Oh, and the graph has had an extra line added, showing up to 700kwh, as I predicted yesterday. 


In their submission to the ombudsman they have already admitted I've supplied several meter readings this year, two of which were backed-up with photos, and they will need to re-bill me from the point they took over SSE in Jan. 2020, so correct usage is charged at the correct rates, as those rates have changed a number of times over the last two & a half years, so it will get resolved.


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## prunus (Jun 16, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I don't think they are trying to rip me off, there just seems a problem with their system when it comes to estimating use, and hopeless staff that don't correct things when they promise to do so.
> 
> And, in respect of June, I've only just noticed something that suggests some other problem with their graph this month, the figure on the 'home page' normally matches the graph you get after clicking on 'view my energy usage'. However this morning it's showing 264kwh so far for June, which is still out by about 200kwh, but more reasonable than the 606kwh now showing on the graph.  🤷‍♂️
> 
> ...



Isn’t that 264 kWh for May?


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 16, 2022)

prunus said:


> Isn’t that 264 kWh for May?



Oh, so it is.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 16, 2022)

Last month they increased my DD to £185, so I cancelled it, then set up a new one for £125, that was taken yesterday, and has triggered another e-mail saying I need to increase it to £185, and if I don't, they will in 10 days.  

I will once again wait until they increase it, then I'll cancel it again, but this time I'll set-up a new DD for just £1.


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## platinumsage (Jun 16, 2022)

I suggest letting them take £185, and then immediately claim it back from the bank under the Direct Debit Guarantee. That should ruffle some feathers.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 16, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I suggest letting them take £185, and then immediately claim it back from the bank under the Direct Debit Guarantee. That should ruffle some feathers.



Because they give the required notice before changing the DD, the Direct Debit Guarantee wouldn't apply, if I went ahead and did it anyway, it could end up being more hassle than it's worth.


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## platinumsage (Jun 16, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Because they give the required notice before changing the DD, the Direct Debit Guarantee wouldn't apply



It applies regardless of any notice. It's demonstrably an error as evidenced by your ombudsman submission.

Using the DD guarantee would result in an indemnity claim by the bank against OVO, which should raise appropriate flags on their system.


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## existentialist (Jun 16, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I don't understand why OVO are trying to rip you off like this, especially since you've been fighting it from day one. Surely they must know that if you've been disputing this so stridently, including taking things up with the ombudsman, that you would have objective evidence of how much electricity you're actually using? And that they would thus lose? At this point they have to be losing money pursuing this fool's errand? This makes no damn sense.


I think that it is conceivable that OVO's systems pass absolutely zero clue shops on their way home...


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Last month they increased my DD to £185, so I cancelled it, then set up a new one for £125, that was taken yesterday, and has triggered another e-mail saying I need to increase it to £185, and if I don't, they will in 10 days.
> 
> I will once again wait until they increase it, then I'll cancel it again, but this time I'll set-up a new DD for just £1.



I decided not to wait, I just couldn't resist testing their system, I tried setting up a new DD for just 1p, but the minimum is £1. 

It'll be interesting to see if it gets picked up before the 15th July payment, I suspect not, as it seems to be an automated system that only triggers after a payment is made.


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## High Voltage (Jun 17, 2022)

Part of me is going to be sad when you finally resolve your on going OVO issue


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## two sheds (Jun 17, 2022)

When they finally notice you could say that it was done automatically in software because you'd sacked all your Customer Service staff.


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## cybershot (Jun 17, 2022)

I've took a calculated risk and took the plunge and fixed. I'm with E.On Next and now EDFs existing customer 24% increase offer has vanished, E.ON's existing customer offer at 30% more than the current price cap is the best fixed rate on the market, but you can only get it if you're an existing customer. I've decided to twist while It's still available. If my calculations are right I'll be paying more between now and October but overall it should work out £200 a year cheaper once the projected 46% increase comes in, in October, followed by another 1% in January. Whilst no forecasts for March and the way things are in this country at the moment, I can't see prices going down, so I made another 1% increase in March. Obviously it's all a bit attempting to crystal ball.

Reading some of the horror stories here E.On next have been pretty good. They take smart reader readings for the electric every month and adjust accordingly, and I supply them with monthly gas readings. I'm currently in credit again building up what would be the 'ready for winter credit' and the maths for their figures seems correct.

Good reading here: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/u...eap--fixed-energy-deals-currently-worth-it--/


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## CH1 (Jun 17, 2022)

cybershot said:


> I've took a calculated risk and took the plunge and fixed. I'm with E.On Next and now EDFs existing customer 24% increase offer has vanished, E.ON's existing customer offer at 30% more than the current price cap is the best fixed rate on the market, but you can only get it if you're an existing customer. I've decided to twist while It's still available. If my calculations are right I'll be paying more between now and October but overall it should work out £200 a year cheaper once the projected 46% increase comes in, in October, followed by another 1% in January. Whilst no forecasts for March and the way things are in this country at the moment, I can't see prices going down, so I made another 1% increase in March. Obviously it's all a bit attempting to crystal ball.
> 
> Reading some of the horror stories here E.On next have been pretty good. They take smart reader readings for the electric every month and adjust accordingly, and I supply them with monthly gas readings. I'm currently in credit again building up what would be the 'ready for winter credit' and the maths for their figures seems correct.
> 
> Good reading here: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/u...eap--fixed-energy-deals-currently-worth-it--/


I see according to https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/u...eap--fixed-energy-deals-currently-worth-it--/
that both Ovo and SSE do this for existing customers @ 32% more than existing government tariff.
? cupid_stunt ?


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## High Voltage (Jun 17, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I see according to https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/u...eap--fixed-energy-deals-currently-worth-it--/
> that both Ovo and SSE do this for existing customers @ 32% more than existing government tariff.
> ? cupid_stunt ?


Do you really think that cupid_stunt is going to want to give them more money AND be locked in forever??


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 17, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I see according to https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/u...eap--fixed-energy-deals-currently-worth-it--/
> that both Ovo and SSE do this for existing customers @ 32% more than existing government tariff.
> ? cupid_stunt ?



Well, according to the cost of what they think I am using and what it would be on their fixed plan, it's just over 50% more.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 17, 2022)

Bah, octopus already hiked my monthly payments from £50 a month to £80, but I was actually using far less than than that and built up a reserve of money. That reserve has now gone, and despite this being the lowest usage time of year (no heating) they have upped it to £140, which is I think roughly bit more than three times what it would usually cost me this time of year. 
Depressing.


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## High Voltage (Jun 17, 2022)

I've just dropped my bulb payment down to the minimum allowed of £87.62 - I'm still in credit of over £220, which will increase by another £20 by the time my next months payment and DD are taken into account

I'm kind of OK allowing a controlled build up for the winter months (of which I'm predicting 4 maybe 5 will be increased usage)


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## MickiQ (Jun 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I decided not to wait, I just couldn't resist testing their system, I tried setting up a new DD for just 1p, but the minimum is £1.
> View attachment 327598
> It'll be interesting to see if it gets picked up before the 15th July payment, I suspect not, as it seems to be an automated system that only triggers after a payment is made.


The thing is most of the time you are the only actual human being involved in this process, you are arguing with a machine. When finally someone takes an interest I am sure it can be fixed with a few clicks of the mouse


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## High Voltage (Jun 17, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> . . .  I am sure it can be fixed with a few clicks of the mouse


Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 17, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> The thing is most of the time you are the only actual human being involved in this process, you are arguing with a machine. When finally someone takes an interest I am sure it can be fixed with a few clicks of the mouse



They have made such a mess of things over around two and a half years now, I think it will take a fair bit more than a few mouse clicks, in fact they have already admitted to the ombudsman that they will have to re-issue all the bills since they first took over SSE customers in Jan. 2020.

This was their full response to the ombudsman...



> Your final SSE electricity bill was £202.41dr based on an estimated meter reading 16682. SSE haven’t billed you on an actual meter reading since 19.10.2019 Based on the meter readings you provided 26.01.2022 - 13847 21.05.2022 - 14420 Your meter reading can be amended from 16682 to 13668. Your account with SSE will need to be rebilled. This will then your Ovo account to be rebilled and use the meter readings you have provided. Your account shows you are eligible for smart meters meaning we can pull your meter readings remotely to bill your accounts accurately. In the meantime you can register for an online account Energy Supplier, Switch Gas & Electricity Provider | OVO Energy Once your billing has been resolved you will be able to update your meter readings and manage your account. Due to the shortfalls in service Ovo will issue an apology and apply a £100.00 goodwill gesture



And, my reply...



> So, if the last SSE meter reading was on 19.10.2019, I assume the opening estimated 10063 reading up to 8/1/20 is about right (see bill file 1 SSE Elec 2020 Apr submitted with my complaint], I understand OVO took over SSE customers in Jan 2020, so it's everything from that point forward that has gone wrong.
> 
> On the 8/1/21 (see bill file 4 SSE Elec 2021 Jan] OVO controlled SEE closing estimate was 12000, whereas I have a Meter Reading Confirmation dated 19 Jan 21 from Morrison Data Services showing it at 11486 [see file z Meter Reading 19 Jan 21], so in that first year there was an overestimate of 500+.
> 
> ...


----------



## two sheds (Jun 17, 2022)

A bit late now but it might have been better to accept their early overestimated meter readings because they were charged at a lower rate? If they mess around any more would it be worth saying 'oh I see your first estimated reading was correct it's just the ones after that which are wrong.


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## High Voltage (Jun 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> They have made such a mess of things over around two and a half years now, I think it will take a fair bit more than a few mouse clicks, in fact they have already admitted to the ombudsman that they will have to re-issue all the bills since they first took over SSE customers in Jan. 2020.
> 
> This was their full response to the ombudsman...
> 
> ...



I've read and re-read your reply several times now, and try as I might, I'm struggling to find any "Fucks" "useless cunts" " wankers" or similar in it


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 17, 2022)

two sheds said:


> A bit late now but it might have been better to accept their early overestimated meter readings because they were charged at a lower rate? If they mess around any more would it be worth saying 'oh I see your first estimated reading was correct it's just the ones after that which are wrong.



That wouldn't work, because my use needs to be about the same each year, if I did that, my use would have dropped about 1000kwh in 2021 compared to 2020, and I doubt they would be daft enough to accept that TBH.

Besides the unit rate averaged around 17p in 2020, compared to 22p in 2021, so accepting the over estimate in 2020 of 500kwh X the 5p difference totals just £25, peanuts compared to what I estimate to be a total over payment of about £800 and counting.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 17, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I've read and re-read your reply several times now, and try as I might, I'm struggling to find any "Fucks" "useless cunts" " wankers" or similar in it



You should have seen the first draft.


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## two sheds (Jun 17, 2022)

Don't call him daft 

Pah cheat you changed it


----------



## weltweit (Jun 17, 2022)

I have a key electric meter which is recharged at the local post office via E.ON ..

So far we have been paying about £10.00 a week.

The receipt says Tariff ID 135 .. I just buy £50.00 every 5 weeks or so.

There is no mention of how many units I am buying.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 17, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I've just dropped my bulb payment down to the minimum allowed of £87.62 - I'm still in credit of over £220, which will increase by another £20 by the time my next months payment and DD are taken into account
> 
> I'm kind of OK allowing a controlled build up for the winter months (of which I'm predicting 4 maybe 5 will be increased usage)


Bulb? I thought they went bust. 
Or rather I was on bulb and they went bust and I got moved to Scottish power.


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## magneze (Jun 17, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Bulb? I thought they went bust.
> Or rather I was on bulb and they went bust and I got moved to Scottish power.


We're still on Bulb.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 17, 2022)

magneze said:


> We're still on Bulb.


What was I on then? I was sure I was on Bulb.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 17, 2022)

Bulb went bust last year and is currently run by OFGEM on behalf of the government, whilst bids are considered from various companies looking to take them over.



> Octopus joins Centrica, owner of Britain’s largest energy supplier British Gas, and Masdar, a UAE government-owned energy company, in contention for the remnants of Bulb.
> 
> Fellow British supplier OVO Energy is also weighing making a bid, but hasn’t yet entered the formal process, being run by financial advisors Lazard.
> 
> ...











						Bidders Line up for Collapsed Energy Supplier Bulb - Simply Switch
					

The 1.7 million households supplied by felled startup Bulb are closer to knowing which company is taking over their accounts, as two British energy giants




					www.simplyswitch.com


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Bulb went bust last year and is currently run by OFGEM on behalf of the government, whilst bids are considered from various companies looking to take them over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then how/why was I kicked off to Scottish Power and some people are still on bulb?


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 17, 2022)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Then how/why was I kicked off to Scottish Power and some people are still on bulb?



No idea, mate.

Maybe they sold some customers to Scottish Power before they went bust.

When were you transferred?


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## magneze (Jun 17, 2022)

They just sent me an email jacking up my monthly payments by another £40. Clearly I went straight back into the app and reduced them down to the minimum. Unfortunately they've upped the minimum so it's another £20pm. Feel like just cancelling DD tbh but not sure if it's worth the hassle. Are all the suppliers basically charging the same still?


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 17, 2022)

magneze said:


> They just sent me an email jacking up my monthly payments by another £40. Clearly I went straight back into the app and reduced them down to the minimum. Unfortunately they've upped the minimum so it's another £20pm. Feel like just cancelling DD tbh but not sure if it's worth the hassle. Are all the suppliers basically charging the same still?



If you cancel the DD they will give you notice they will put you on higher rates.

Hence why I've cancelled my DD with OVO two months in row, then set up a new DD for a lower amount.


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## donkyboy (Jun 17, 2022)

So the French can force EDF to limit price rise to 4% and we can't?


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 17, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> So the French can force EDF to limit price rise to 4% and we can't?



That was done because of the election, and is costing EDF some £7bn, I guess if these high prices continue, EDF will end up being bailed out by the French government, i.e. the tax payer.



> France has shielded consumers from energy price rises by imposing a four per cent cap on hikes to bills in 2022. It has also cut some tax on electricity to ease the shock, and offered a winter payment of €100 last December.
> 
> Emmanuel Macron, facing an election next month, watched on as state-owned energy giant EDF took a £7bn financial hit because of the price cap. Unlike in the UK, most of the market in France is concentrated in this one company, with around 85 per cent of the population using the traditional supplier.
> 
> However, the cost of living crunch as a whole, including rising prices for petrol and groceries, remain an issue. Mr Macron has pledged to subsidise petrol by 15c a litre. His main electoral challenger for the presidency, Marine Le Pen, has promised to go further, offering more cash directly to French people.











						From energy prices to cheap bread, here's how countries are dealing with cost of living crisis
					

France has shielded consumers from energy price rises by imposing a four per cent cap on hikes to bills in 2022




					inews.co.uk


----------



## magneze (Jun 17, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> So the French can force EDF to limit price rise to 4% and we can't won't?


CFU


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 17, 2022)

And, of course, most electric in France is produced by nuclear power stations, the highest in the world, and they actually export electric, whereas the UK has failed in nuclear investment, meaning a lot of ours is produced by burning gas and ironically importing from France.

The main drivers behind the energy increases is the international wholesale prices of gas, and to a lesser degree electric, so France has a massive advantage over the UK.


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## MickiQ (Jun 17, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> So the French can force EDF to limit price rise to 4% and we can't?


The French government has an 85% stake in EDF kind of gives them a substantial say


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## CH1 (Jun 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Bulb went bust last year and is currently run by OFGEM on behalf of the government, whilst bids are considered from various companies looking to take them over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


City AM has an interesting take on the "bidding war"








						Octopus Energy locks horns with Centrica over market reforms as bidding war for Bulb lights up
					

Two of the UK's biggest energy firms remain at loggerheads over key proposals to fix the industry by ringfencing customer balances.




					www.cityam.com


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## geminisnake (Jun 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, of course, most electric in France is produced by nuclear power stations, the highest in the world, and they actually export electric, whereas the UK has failed in nuclear investment, meaning a lot of ours is produced by burning gas and ironically importing from France.
> 
> The main drivers behind the energy increases is the international wholesale prices of gas, and to a lesser degree electric, so France has a massive advantage over the UK.


 France has an advantage over England, Scotland produces enough electricity by water, wind and solar, and a smidge of coal and nuclear iirc


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## alex_ (Jun 18, 2022)

The French electricity industry is also owned by the state who can decide that that power prices are flat. 

In the U.K. even if you are on a green electricity tariff and all of your power is coming from solar; you are still paying an electricity price set by the price of gas.


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## Cat Fan (Jun 18, 2022)

weltweit said:


> I have a key electric meter which is recharged at the local post office via E.ON ..
> 
> So far we have been paying about £10.00 a week.
> 
> ...


I guess one advantage of a prepayment meter is you only pay for what you use. Unlike all the stories on here of people being forced to up their DD to cover what they _may_ use this winter


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## dessiato (Jun 18, 2022)

I've been looking at the bills for here, one bed flat, Galicia, and the house in Scotland. Our bill here is about €300 for three months. The house is about €300 a month. The house is empty at the so I expect to reclaim the over payment. They're basing it on my f-i-l usage I suppose. This is going to hurt when we get back.


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## dessiato (Jun 18, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> So the French can force EDF to limit price rise to 4% and we can't?


Similar thing in Iberia. The EU has an Iberian exclusion which means that both Portugal and Spain have set limits on fuel prices. Of course there's no obvious reason the UK couldn't do similar, if it chose to. But profits...


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## two sheds (Jun 18, 2022)

Was thinking this might be useful for you dessiato . 

I got a phone call from a Nottingham number yesterday going through some questions then telling me I'm eligible for an Eco grant. I checked and quite a few people have thought this was a scam number. It does however look kosher. These are the grants including internal and external insulation, loft insulation, heat pumps and others.









						Are there any government grants for home improvements or house repairs available?
					

Are there any government grants for home improvements or house repairs available? Check if you qualify for a Government insulation grant in under 2 minutes with Free Insulation Scheme.




					freeinsulationscheme.org.uk
				




Am tempted by loft insulation and internal wall insulation, will discuss when I get a phone call (I presume) from a local installer.


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## contadino (Jun 18, 2022)

I put off getting cavity wall insulation for a total of 4 years because bastards kept saying that I could get it for free using a grant. Then they'd fuck about and nothing would come of it.

In the end we talked to a company and had it done. Cost £1200 18 months back and I suspect that it'll have paid for itself in another 18 months.

I think these sorts of grant are designed to be at best a zero sum formula and quite likely an institutional racket. i.e certified installer racks their prices up to absorb any grants. Quite often it's cheaper and less hassle to just do it off your own back.


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## Cat Fan (Jun 18, 2022)

Loft insulation is normally the most bang for your buck. Definitely worth it.

I put down some extra myself when we bought our last place. Most lofts don't have enough.


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## two sheds (Jun 18, 2022)

Yes will go for the 100mm to 300mm loft insulation topup if I can. I must say I'm tempted to ask about internal wall insulation too though. Probably only on the north and east walls where it's possible since those are the coldest walls and I could get away with losing a bit of room space there. I've put up insulating wallpaper already so I'm not sure how it would affect the dew point but will ask.


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## Cat Fan (Jun 18, 2022)

It's probably already been said elsewhere, but draught proofing, like getting the little strips that go under the doors, is also reasonably cheap and for us made a huge difference to how warm it feels in winter.

(This is assuming you already have double glazing so windows won't be draughty)


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## two sheds (Jun 18, 2022)

I've put up secondary glazing (nice wood sash windows I don't want to fuck with) with magnetic strips which work well, and some draught proofing but am also thinking of trying to do secondary type glazing for a small external upstairs door because I think that's where most leakage will come from.


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## muscovyduck (Jun 18, 2022)

Cat Fan said:


> It's probably already been said elsewhere, but draught proofing, like getting the little strips that go under the doors, is also reasonably cheap and for us made a huge difference to how warm it feels in winter.
> 
> (This is assuming you already have double glazing so windows won't be draughty)


Anyone renting and panicking a bit about next winter, worth spending a couple hours on YouTube looking at this sort of thing. Probably the biggest difference you can make


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 19, 2022)

Out of interest I thought I would check how much I should be paying for my electric & gas at the current rates, with standing charges & VAT it's just under £1500pa, so £125pm would be right now, whereas I only got it reduced from £171 to that back in time for my Feb. bill.

The price cap is currently just under £2000, so I am using 25% less than that, it's estimated to be going up by £800 in October, so that should be £600 for me, and will increase my monthly cost to £175pm.  

So, more than double the £80pm I was paying at the start of 2020, I wish I hadn't worked that out now.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 20, 2022)

CH1 said:


> City AM has an interesting take on the "bidding war"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OFCOM is siding with Centrica/British Gas, and any customer credits will have to be ring-fenced in a separate bank account, new rules should also stop companies increasing direct debts by more than is required. And, about time, this should have been in place long before. 



> *New measures to better protect customers’ money and stop energy suppliers using some of their cash “like an interest-free company credit card” are to be announced on Monday by the industry regulator.*
> 
> Ofgem said its package of “tough” measures was aimed at reducing the risk of more energy suppliers going bust, and would also include changes designed to stop firms raising customers’ direct debit payments by more than necessary.
> 
> The shake-up is intended to ensure that suppliers “can weather the ongoing storm” and to prevent a repeat of last year’s failures “that put unfair and unnecessary costs and worry on to consumers”.





> Ofgem said the measures were designed to improve the financial health of suppliers so that they could stand up to any future shocks, especially over the autumn and winter. It added that if some did still fail, customer credit balances and green levy payments would now be protected.
> 
> “Currently, they are used by some suppliers like an interest-free company credit card,” said Jonathan Brearley, the chief executive of Ofgem. “Moving forward, all suppliers will have to have enough working capital to run, without putting their customers’ credit balances at risk.”
> 
> *When a supplier fails, customers are moved to a new energy supplier with their credit balances intact. However, under the existing rules, the new supplier does not get the customer credit balances from the failed supplier, so the cost of replacing them is spread across all consumer bills.*





> *The regulator has proposed rules that would require suppliers to place customer funds in a separate account, ensuring that any overpaid credit would be preserved in the event of a collapse.*
> 
> Last month the government said some suppliers had been increasing people’s direct debit payments by more than was necessary.
> 
> *Ofgem said its proposed changes also included a tightening of the rules on the level of direct debits that suppliers can charge customers, “to ensure credit balances do not become excessive”.*











						Ofgem to announce measures aimed at protecting money of energy customers
					

Regulator says shake-up is designed to cut risk of suppliers going bust and will change rules on credit balances in event of collapses




					www.theguardian.com


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## MickiQ (Jun 20, 2022)

*When a supplier fails, customers are moved to a new energy supplier with their credit balances intact. However, under the existing rules, the new supplier does not get the customer credit balances from the failed supplier, so the cost of replacing them is spread across all consumer bills.*

This is fucking outrageous I'm with Ofgen and (to my surprise) British Gas on this.


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## alex_ (Jun 20, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> *When a supplier fails, customers are moved to a new energy supplier with their credit balances intact. However, under the existing rules, the new supplier does not get the customer credit balances from the failed supplier, so the cost of replacing them is spread across all consumer bills.*
> 
> This is fucking outrageous I'm with Ofgen and (to my surprise) British Gas on this.



And it’s so open to exploitation it’s ridiculous, it’s literally a reward to dishonest cowboy players.

Alex


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## MrCurry (Jun 20, 2022)

Little wonder all the suppliers want to ramp up the DDs to get everyone into credit with them


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## alex_ (Jun 20, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> Little wonder all the suppliers want to ramp up the DDs to get everyone into credit with them



You have to wonder if this will make a load more fold - as it’ll force them to reveal they’ve been dipping the client account.


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## High Voltage (Jun 20, 2022)

Well, in mind of the above posts - I've been onto Bulb this morning. I initially wanted a refund of my credit balance leaving only £70 to pay for this months usage AND to alter my DD down to £1 for one month

Seems I'm not allowed to do that - but what I am allowed to do is have a full refund of my credit balance, some £200+ and then to switch to a variable DD which only takes out the amount of that months bill - so this is what I've done

Be interesting to see what happens to bulb on the 30th of this month and if the variable DD is still an option


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## magneze (Jun 20, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Well, in mind of the above posts - I've been onto Bulb this morning. I initially wanted a refund of my credit balance leaving only £70 to pay for this months usage AND to alter my DD down to £1 for one month
> 
> Seems I'm not allowed to do that - but what I am allowed to do is have a full refund of my credit balance, some £200+ and then to switch to a variable DD which only takes out the amount of that months bill - so this is what I've done
> 
> Be interesting to see what happens to bulb on the 30th of this month and if the variable DD is still an option


Sounds like a good idea. Will also do this later.


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## CH1 (Jun 20, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> *When a supplier fails, customers are moved to a new energy supplier with their credit balances intact. However, under the existing rules, the new supplier does not get the customer credit balances from the failed supplier, so the cost of replacing them is spread across all consumer bills.*
> 
> This is fucking outrageous I'm with Ofgen and (to my surprise) British Gas on this.


If you are ever involved in an insolvency you will find that the insolvency practitioners make a lot of money out of it - and most others involved in any way lose.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Jun 20, 2022)

CH1 said:


> If you are ever involved in an insolvency you will find that the insolvency practitioners make a lot of money out of it - and most others involved in any way lose.


Noooooo
what a shocker
sorry, shouldn't sarcasm on this thread

So:
I can get a fixed deal from Eon for a year, it is currently cheaper than the DD they have me on but higher than the "best tariff" they are offering me (when I looked today).
I am electricity only (heating and hot water come from a separately billed central plant on the estate) and my usage is pretty low (£22 p/m prior to march increase)
I can't work out if I should (I missed moving to another fixed rate last May (2021) due to distractions)

Anyone here who can/could do the maths for me?

e2a: it feels very suburban on this thread now


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## cybershot (Jun 21, 2022)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> Noooooo
> what a shocker
> sorry, shouldn't sarcasm on this thread
> 
> ...


Without knowing your annual consumption and what your current rates and offered rates are it’s impossible to do the maths. 

There’s also some assumptions that have to be made especially as the price cap moving forward will change every 3 months instead of 6 from October. 

According to Mr Lewis on Twitter yesterday wholesale prices rose sharply last week and the ‘projected’ increase in October is now a whopping 51%. That could come down but who knows! Then a further 1% price projected in January. There is no forecast for April so that’s when fixing for 12 months now sort of becomes a bit of a long term gamble. 

I fixed with Eon for 30% above the current price cap last week. So from Monday until October I’m paying 30% more than I could be. But it’s also the point of the year where I’m using a lot less energy than I would at any other point. When winter comes I’m locked into that tariff. So if prices go up 51% again then I’ll be paying 21% less than what the price cap is for that time. And 22% less in January. Some short term over paying for long term price certainty over winter. My maths worked out at a £200ish annual saving that sticking with price capped tariffs. 

Of course prices could drastically drop and I’ll be paying well above average. Possible but unlikely imo. 

Bonus with the Eon one for me is there’s no exit fees so if it all does change then I can leave with no penalty at any point (not all providers are offering this and in fact exit penalties are higher than ever) or be moved to another tariff. 

It seemed a safe bet from my seat but people need to do the maths and be sure they can afford the short term price jump now and what if any exit penalties are if you need to get out of it. 

People are really going to struggle. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if there’s riots.


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## Elpenor (Jun 21, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Without knowing your annual consumption and what your current rates and offered rates are it’s impossible to do the maths.
> 
> There’s also some assumptions that have to be made especially as the price cap moving forward will change every 3 months instead of 6 from October.
> 
> ...



I will have to make a decision about tariffs when I move house next week. I currently pay £61 for economy 7 on a fix from April 2021, will have to move to a dual fuel tariff for a slightly larger house 

Wondering whether I’m better off going for a lower unit cost or standing charge, I tend to not have the heating on much or use the oven. 

I feel like I’m going to have to opt for a fix to get the certainty. I can get overtime quite regularly at work which I hope can absorb the higher cost


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## JoeyBoy (Jun 21, 2022)

scifisam said:


> Are you HMOs or flats occupied by solo people/couples/families? If you're in an HMO the landlord can't get the money (legally, anyway, and they probably would notice). As the tenant you have to apply for a discretionary payment - don't know how likely it is to be paid.


Sorry for late reply not had access to the computer for a bit. I live in a flat, it's one of eight in a 2 storey block that used to belong to the council but are now all owned by private landlords. My landlord who is a bit of a local property baron owns five of them and the other three belong to separate landlords. I've lived here for three years and I've never paid council tax it's always been rolled up into my rent. I know the other four who're tenants of the same landlord as me do the same. Don't know about flats 2, 3 and 7. They're only 1 bedroom about half are couples and about half are someone on my own like me with no families but they're all self-contained flats though.
I was told that since the council tax rebate was paid to the council tax payer the landlord would get it.
As I mentioned before I know he has about 30 houses besides these flats but I don't know anyone who lives in one of  them or even where they are so I don't know if the people that live in them pay the same way.


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## JoeyBoy (Jun 21, 2022)

If anyone is interested I'm still taking a shower at work. The site management were angry about the lock being drilled out and there was a lot  of talk of replacing it and installing a camera so they could watch it. The higher ups vetoed it on the grounds that a couple of women out of the office also use the shower and the company might be leaving themselves open to all sorts of accusations of peeping tommery if they stuck a camera there.
They wouldn't be able to see in unless they used an X-Ray camera or something and there is a privacy lock on the inside of the door but they must have been worried about it might look.
The bosses know who did the drilling we all do but they can't prove it was him.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 21, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> Sorry for late reply not had access to the computer for a bit. I live in a flat, it's one of eight in a 2 storey block that used to belong to the council but are now all owned by private landlords. My landlord who is a bit of a local property baron owns five of them and the other three belong to separate landlords. I've lived here for three years and I've never paid council tax it's always been rolled up into my rent. I know the other four who're tenants of the same landlord as me do the same. Don't know about flats 2, 3 and 7. They're only 1 bedroom about half are couples and about half are someone on my own like me with no families but they're all self-contained flats though.
> I was told that since the council tax rebate was paid to the council tax payer the landlord would get it.
> As I mentioned before I know he has about 30 houses besides these flats but I don't know anyone who lives in one of  them or even where they are so I don't know if the people that live in them pay the same way.



Have you asked your landlord for the £150? Because it should go to you.

This is from North Kesteven District Council's website -



> *In most cases, in legislation, where there is a tenant/s in the property, the tenant/s should be liable for the council tax. (see Exceptions below) Including your council tax in your rent is an agreement between you and your landlord, BUT you should still be named on the council tax account.*
> 
> The Council is not going to be aware of some of these arrangements and we cannot pay out more than one payment per domestic dwelling. Therefore you urgently need to contact the Council and register for council tax.
> 
> ...



LINK (it downloads a PDF).


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## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2022)

was handed a leaflet for this lot on saturday at the tuc march Don’t Pay looks like an interesting idea




dontpay.uk


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## two sheds (Jun 21, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Have you asked your landlord for the £150? Because it should go to you.
> 
> This is from North Kesteven District Council's website -
> 
> ...


And although the council tax is included in the rent JoeyBoy you're still paying it (as I'm sure you realize).


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## Cat Fan (Jun 21, 2022)

cybershot said:


> People are really going to struggle. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if there’s riots.


There was already that big demo last weekend.

Government handing out £1k to poorer households should help a bit, but feels a bit limited and short term.


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## JoeyBoy (Jun 21, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Have you asked your landlord for the £150? Because it should go to you.
> 
> This is from North Kesteven District Council's website -
> 
> ...


OK can't hurt to ask I suppose. I will talk to the tenants in 4, 5, 6 and 8 when I get home. If all five of us bring it up it will be harder for him to try and wriggle out of it.


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## JoeyBoy (Jun 21, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> was handed a leaflet for this lot on saturday at the tuc march Don’t Pay looks like an interesting idea
> 
> View attachment 328286
> 
> ...


How is this going to work then? If I go in the Co-Op with my meter key and say put £10 on it but I'm not going to give you the tenner, I'm sure they will just laugh at me.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> How is this going to work then? If I go in the Co-Op with my meter key and say put £10 on it but I'm not going to give you the tenner, I'm sure they will just laugh at me.


if you read the website they specifically say that this won't include people with pre-payment meters, for obvious reasons as you note.


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## WouldBe (Jun 21, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> if you read the website they specifically say that this won't include people with pre-payment meters, for obvious reasons as you note.


Even if you're on a DD how long will it be before you get cut off?
Then you won't have to worry about paying bills.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Even if you're on a DD how long will it be before you get cut off?
> Then you won't have to worry about paying bills.


they address this too: 








						Don’t Pay
					

Millions of us won’t be able to afford food and bills this winter. We can’t let that happen.




					dontpay.uk


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 21, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> new rules should also stop companies increasing direct debts by more than is required. And, about time, this should have been in place long before.


Even Octopus keep raising mine more than they need. They say I can stop the rises by losing into my account and changing them, but my requests to reduce or contest payments fall on deaf ears (I literally get no reply whatsoever). The FAQ say it's because you pay more in the winter and it balances things out, but if the price hikes had not arrived I wouldn't have used up the surplus at all (and now they have raised it again). Bit annoying.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 22, 2022)

Bit ironic, but I've just had a electric meter reader pay a visit.

Meanwhile, despite my complaint to the ombudsman changing status to 'investigate' on 12th June, still no case handler/investigator has been assigned.


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## Artaxerxes (Jun 23, 2022)

Looks like rice along with pasta going up in price soon.









						‘People are ripping up contracts’: price of rice boils over into new territory in UK
					

The pressures faced by one Yorkshire rice importer illustrate how costs feed through to consumers




					www.theguardian.com


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 23, 2022)

For the monthly billing period up to 21st June, I used 140kwh of electric, cost £39.31 before VAT & standing charge, look what the OVO's glue sniffers are billing me for!





My total bill, with gas, standing charges, and VAT should be £72.64, they are billing me a whopping £257.73, over charging by £185.09.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 23, 2022)

I've just added that to my ombudsman compliant, together with this just taken screenshot of what they are estimating I've used so far in June, a whopping 675kwh, compared to their estimate for June 2021 of just 132.14kwh. 



Hopefully this information will help my case for £200 compensation on top of a sizeable refund, rather than the £100 I've already been offered.

This latest bill is showing a meter reading of 19015 on 21st June, when I submitted a reading of 14557 online, so it's over estimated by 4458kwh, that respects around two & half years of my actual usage, and £1000+ over billed.


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## not a trot (Jun 23, 2022)

Just received my British Gas statement. DD gone from £73 a month to £194 a month. Less than I feared. Pensioner household, myself, my wife and her elderly Aunt who moved in with us last year.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 23, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Just received my British Gas statement. DD gone from £73 a month to £194 a month. Less than I feared. Pensioner household, myself, my wife and her elderly Aunt who moved in with us last year.



Have you just come of a fixed price deal?

If you are just on the usual price cap rates, DDs should only be going up by 54%, but many companies are taking the piss.



> At least 30% of British Gas, Octopus Energy and Shell Energy customers who were in credit and on price-capped tariffs told the UK's biggest consumer website, MoneySavingExpert.com (MSE), that they've seen their direct debits double – even though the price cap rise is half that, at 54%. Across all firms, 25% of customers in this situation reported direct debits doubling or more.
> 
> MSE analysed the responses of the over 41,000 people who chose to reply to its investigative survey. Almost half (46%) of those whose payments had doubled said they hadn't challenged the increase with their supplier because they didn't know they could (see MSE's tips on how to challenge your direct debit).







			https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/05/energy-direct-debit-hikes-mse-survey/


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## two sheds (Jun 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I've just added that to my ombudsman compliant, together with this just taken screenshot of what they are estimating I've used so far in June, a whopping 675kwh, compared to their estimate for June 2021 of just 132.14kwh.
> 
> View attachment 328556
> 
> ...


Is it worth telling them that they've involved you in so much work that you'll be billing them for any further work you have to do at your normal hourly rate? Even better would be the rate charged by "Trainee solicitors, paralegals and other fee earners": £126 an hour.


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## prunus (Jun 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Is it worth telling them that they've involved you in so much work that you'll be billing them for any further work you have to do at your normal hourly rate? Even better would be the rate charged by "Trainee solicitors, paralegals and other fee earners": £126 an hour.



I think a better press of their buttons would be to say something like Ovo’s continuing ignoring of your pleas and egregious calculations are beginning to feel like a personal attack, which is negatively affecting your mental health.  

If you like


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## High Voltage (Jun 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Hopefully this information will help my case for £200 compensation on top of a sizeable refund, rather than the £100 I've already been offered.



To be honest, I don't really see why you're having this much trouble . . . it begs the question are you doing something wrong??

I've had my full credit WITHIN the 5-7 working days that Bulb have as a target (a company, by the way,  in the hands of the receivers or whatever they're called), in LESS than 4 working days - pretty impressive


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## MickiQ (Jun 23, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Just received my British Gas statement. DD gone from £73 a month to £194 a month. Less than I feared. Pensioner household, myself, my wife and her elderly Aunt who moved in with us last year.


Jesus Christ you running the local power station? mine went up from £67 to £95, there's only me and Mrs Q at home now (and Youngest Q outside term time) but up until the final quarter of last year there were 5 adults in the house which no doubt factored into their calculations. What were you fearing if you think that's not a blind rip off?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> To be honest, I don't really see why you're having this much trouble . . . it begs the question are you doing something wrong??
> 
> I've had my full credit WITHIN the 5-7 working days that Bulb (a company, by the way,  in the hands of the receivers or whatever they're called), in LESS than 4 working days - pretty impressive



No I am not doing anything wrong!   You cheeky fucker. 

I am submitting electric & gas meter readings every month, they use the gas ones fine, but ignore the electric ones, because they are far lower than what their system thinks the reading should be, they have already admitted to the billing errors in their submission to the ombudsman, but the problem just keep rolling on. 

I am glad you got your credit refunded quickly, the problem with OVO is that they are showing I am over £300 in debit, whereas I am actually over £700 credit, once they re-issue all the bills from the last 2+ years, and correct the account, I expect I should be able to get my credit balance refunded as quickly as you have.


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## High Voltage (Jun 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> . . . the problem with OVO. . .



Worryingly, it looks like OVO are also being included in the group of companies that are bidding for the Bulb accounts - of which I'm one


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Worryingly, it looks like OVO are also being included in the group of companies that are bidding for the Bulb accounts - of which I'm one



I saw some stats the other day, that per 100,000 customers, OVO gets more than double the number of complaints compared to the next nearest suppliers. That's only since they took over SSE customers, typical situation of a small operator taking on a much bigger one and than struggling with merging the two operations.

Oh, here it is -

Quarterly number of complaints received by large energy suppliers in Great Britain from Q1 2013 to Q4 2021, by company











						Large UK utilities: complaints received 2021 | Statista
					

British utility company OVO received an average of 3,260 complaints per 100,000 customers in Q4 2021.




					www.statista.com
				




I would like to change, but they are by far the cheapest for me. My ombudsman complaint should be resolved by the 24th July at the latest, bringing my account in order at some point soon after that, plus I have smart meters being installed on the 27th July, which should end the issue with their overestimating.

Therefore my problems should soon, like haemorrhoids, be behind me.


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## not a trot (Jun 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Have you just come of a fixed price deal?
> 
> If you are just on the usual price cap rates, DDs should only be going up by 54%, but many companies are taking the piss.
> 
> ...



Been on variable standard tariff for past 5 years.  The amount of credit in the account just about covered the latest bill.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 23, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Been on variable standard tariff for past 5 years.  The amount of credit in the account just about covered the latest bill.



In that case, a jump from £73 a month to £194 a month does seem excessive, OK you may need to pay a bit more that the 54% increase from the price cap, but over 250% more doesn't look right to me.

And, as that graph shows, British Gas has been the worst for increasing DDs by at least double the amount, with 33% of their customers reporting that they are in that position.


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## WouldBe (Jun 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> For the monthly billing period up to 21st June, I used 140kwh of electric, cost £39.31 before VAT & standing charge, look what the OVO's glue sniffers are billing me for!
> 
> View attachment 328555


Have you tried ramming the meter up their arse preferably still connected to the mains?


----------



## Cat Fan (Jun 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> No I am not doing anything wrong!   You cheeky fucker.
> 
> I am submitting electric & gas meter readings every month, they use the gas ones fine, but ignore the electric ones, because they are far lower than what their system thinks the reading should be, they have already admitted to the billing errors in their submission to the ombudsman, but the problem just keep rolling on.
> 
> I am glad you got your credit refunded quickly, the problem with OVO is that they are showing I am over £300 in debit, whereas I am actually over £700 credit, once they re-issue all the bills from the last 2+ years, and correct the account, I expect I should be able to get my credit balance refunded as quickly as you have.


I had the same overbilling on electricity error across multiple suppliers and despite hours talking to customer service and submitting photos of meter readings, the only thing that got it fixed was when they switched back on my old smart meter.


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## cybershot (Jun 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Have you just come of a fixed price deal?
> 
> If you are just on the usual price cap rates, DDs should only be going up by 54%, but many companies are taking the piss.
> 
> ...


Sadly there's a lot of mis information in the 'It should only have gone up 54%' line. That's only true if you went from whatever the price cap was in March, to the new price cap in April.

If you've just come off an existing fixed rate deal where you were probably paying less than what the price cap was in March, then it's very highly likely your bill will go up way more than 54%

Without the full breakdown of when people's fixed rates ended etc, it's going to be numbers that are all over the place.


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 23, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Sadly there's a lot of mis information in the 'It should only have gone up 54%' line. That's only true if you went from whatever the price cap was in March, to the new price cap in April.
> 
> If you've just come off an existing fixed rate deal where you were probably paying less than what the price cap was in March, then it's very highly likely your bill will go up way more than 54%
> 
> Without the full breakdown of when people's fixed rates ended etc, it's going to be numbers that are all over the place.



I know that, that's why I asked if they had just come off a fixed price deal, and said IF they are just on the usual price cap rates, it should be around 54%.

They confirmed they have been on standard rates for years.


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## donkyboy (Jun 24, 2022)

Well it arrived this morning. the email I didn't want


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## donkyboy (Jun 24, 2022)

anyone else with EDF? I can't locate anywhere info about my annual usage as want to at least see if any better offers anywhere else


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## platinumsage (Jun 24, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> anyone else with EDF? I can't locate anywhere info about my annual usage as want to at least see if any better offers anywhere else



Download a PDF of your latest bill and it should be towards the end under "About your tariff" where it gives estimated annual consumption in kWh.


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## AnnaKarpik (Jun 24, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> anyone else with EDF? I can't locate anywhere info about my annual usage as want to at least see if any better offers anywhere else


IIRC when you click on an EDF tariff it takes you to a page which gives estimated annual usage; how accurate this is only you can judge, they are miles out with me.


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## donkyboy (Jun 24, 2022)

Well. the little shits increased the price from £67 in early July to £70pm month. I think I will have to go for the fixed rate till 2024 for £70pm


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## platinumsage (Jun 27, 2022)

Smart meter customers could be paid to reduce usage at peak times this winter:



			archive.ph


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## MickiQ (Jun 27, 2022)

Folks are reducing usage anyway since the stuff is so sodding expensive how do they expect people to reduce it further turn everything off and sit there in the dark and the cold during peak hours?


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## alex_ (Jun 27, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Folks are reducing usage anyway since the stuff is so sodding expensive how do they expect people to reduce it further turn everything off and sit there in the dark and the cold during peak hours?



Not putting the washer, drier, dishwasher, oven or kettle on in the couple of hours of peak time, will make a huge difference.

Alex


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## Artaxerxes (Jun 27, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Not putting the washer, drier, dishwasher, oven or kettle on in the couple of hours of peak time, will make a huge difference.
> 
> Alex



Yeah grand, nothing like eating after midnight


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## High Voltage (Jun 27, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Not putting the washer, drier, dishwasher, oven or kettle on in the couple of hours of peak time, will make a huge difference.
> 
> Alex


How does this save money? - unless you're on an Economy 7 / 10 package when, of course, it will. But if on a "normal" it won't


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## alex_ (Jun 27, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yeah grand, nothing like eating after midnight



Peak is 1700 to 1900


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## MickiQ (Jun 27, 2022)

The basic idea is sound but the implementation is flawed, the best way is to just cut prices outside peak hours with no change to the standing charge. We used to have Economy 7 back when we had an immersion heater but without that it's not cost effective.
If however they declared a 20% drop in price for every KWh outside peak load times or even just overnight with no strings attached then I think lots of people would try and migrate what they could. Both our dishwasher and washing machine have 24hr timers on them it would be no problem to set them to run at 2am except there is currently no motivation for us to do so.


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## two sheds (Jun 27, 2022)

isn't that going to need smart meters? Which is also what they want to encourage.


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## BigTom (Jun 27, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> How does this save money? - unless you're on an Economy 7 / 10 package when, of course, it will. But if on a "normal" it won't



the idea is that using smart meters you would pay people to not use electricity during those hours. I assume they take a baseline from average usage for your household specifically if they have enough data, or against the national average for a house of your size. So if normally you would use 3kwh during the peak evening time, and you use 1kwh instead, they will pay you - according to the article - £6 per kwh, so you would get £12 off your bill.

And yes, it would need smart meters, and it's the first time I've heard anything that makes me interested in having one.


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## MickiQ (Jun 27, 2022)

BigTom said:


> the idea is that using smart meters you would pay people to not use electricity during those hours. I assume they take a baseline from average usage for your household specifically if they have enough data, or against the national average for a house of your size. So if normally you would use 3kwh during the peak evening time, and you use 1kwh instead, they will pay you - according to the article - £6 per kwh, so you would get £12 off your bill.
> 
> And yes, it would need smart meters, and it's the first time I've heard anything that makes me interested in having one.


If they are going to use my smart meter to establish a baseline then during the run up to this scheme it makes sense to do everything in peak hours to pad it out and thus get back more when the scheme starts.


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## Chz (Jun 27, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> The basic idea is sound but the implementation is flawed, the best way is to just cut prices outside peak hours with no change to the standing charge. We used to have Economy 7 back when we had an immersion heater but without that it's not cost effective.
> If however they declared a 20% drop in price for every KWh outside peak load times or even just overnight with no strings attached then I think lots of people would try and migrate what they could. Both our dishwasher and washing machine have 24hr timers on them it would be no problem to set them to run at 2am except there is currently no motivation for us to do so.


We used to have a thing from EDF called Eco 20/20, which was a more convenient Eco7 deal. There were more discounted hours, but the discount was less. EDF only offered it for a few years though, and no-one else would take that up when we left so we're back to putting the appliances on whenever the hell we feel like it. But at least we have experience of running things off-hours.


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## High Voltage (Jun 27, 2022)

BigTom said:


> the idea is that using smart meters you would pay people to not use electricity during those hours. I assume they take a baseline from average usage for your household specifically if they have enough data, or against the national average for a house of your size. So if normally you would use 3kwh during the peak evening time, and you use 1kwh instead, they will pay you - according to the article - £6 per kwh, so you would get £12 off your bill.
> 
> And yes, it would need smart meters, and it's the first time I've heard anything that makes me interested in having one.


And if you use electricity during "peak times" then, through the use of Smartmeters, they'd be able to charge extra . . . surge pricing


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## WouldBe (Jun 27, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Peak is 1700 to 1900


So if you normally eat at 1800 after getting back from work you would have to wait untill after 1900 to have your evening meal. Of course if everyone does that then the peak usage period would change as well. Then what happens ?


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## alex_ (Jun 27, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> So if you normally eat at 1800 after getting back from work you would have to wait untill after 1900 to have your evening meal. Of course if everyone does that then the peak usage period would change as well. Then what happens ?



In the scenario I was replying to - it sounds like your electricity provider would pay you 12 quid to have salad for dinner not jacket potatoes, or cook your jacket potatoes earlier.


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## WouldBe (Jun 27, 2022)

alex_ said:


> In the scenario I was replying to - it sounds like your electricity provider would pay you 12 quid to have salad for dinner not jacket potatoes, or cook your jacket potatoes earlier.


Who the fuck has a salad for their evening meal let alone in the middle of winter.


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## platinumsage (Jun 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> isn't that going to need smart meters? Which is also what they want to encourage.



This is an emergency measure for this winter due to the Ukraine war, yes the article says it's for smart meter users, and no it's not some covert smart meter encouragement program.


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## two sheds (Jun 27, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> This is an emergency measure for this winter due to the Ukraine war, yes the article says it's for smart meter users, and no it's not some covert smart meter encouragement program.


Didn't suggest it was covert, they're quite open about it, it's one of the major benefits for them. And better they reward people for turning stuff off rather than raise prices at peak times, although they'll presumably do that as well. Just pointing out that people who haven't got smart meters won't be able to do it.


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## BigTom (Jun 27, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> And if you use electricity during "peak times" then, through the use of Smartmeters, they'd be able to charge extra . . . surge pricing



Yep but I already eat much earlier than most people, and don't drink tea/coffee, and have washing machine/dishwasher with timer delays so I could run them in the middle of the night if I wanted so my peak hour usage will be well below the average. 
I also have solar panels plus battery so some days that will carry me through peak hours into the later evening before I'm drawing off the grid. Summer I'm almost never drawing off the grid.

A lot of this depends on the detail - as you or someone else said, if it compares it to your average, that invites some game playing. If it's against a national average, you can't do that and I'd almost certainly be nicely below without making any real changes to my life.
Bear in midn that they are justifying this economically because if it reduces peak demand enough that they don't need to turn on an expensive peaker plant, it'll save money overall. If they are paying >£6 per kwh generated from a reserve plant, then they save money by paying you not to use the electricity at that time but at another time instead when they can draw from main sources which are much cheaper.


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## alex_ (Jun 27, 2022)

Demand reduction measures are way cheaper than building peak capacity.


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## two sheds (Jun 27, 2022)

The Energy Efficiency Office in the 1990s was saving £7 for every £1 invested. So of course they cut the funding.


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## MrCurry (Jun 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> So:
> 20A Charger  charging for 6.5 hours to give 130 Ah (1.6 kWh) to power 140 W computer for 7 hours.
> 
> Two 130 Ah Batteries. I discover that it’s 130 Ah (C100) meaning it’s only 130 Ah if discharged over 100 hours. If discharged over say 10 hours the capacity is only around 90 Ah. So I’m charging up 130 Ah worth but only getting 90 Ah back because of internal losses which is a bit of a shame but never mind. I’m thinking of two batteries so that they’re not deep cycling the whole time which I presume wouldn’t do them any good.
> ...


How is this going?


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## alex_ (Jun 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> The Energy Efficiency Office in the 1990s was saving £7 for every £1 invested. So of course they cut the funding.



This kind of shit is literally what government is for !


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## two sheds (Jun 27, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> How is this going?


All the bits have arrived and I've been through the 'structions a couple of times so I feel just about ready to set it up. I'm just waiting for a metal tray to put the batteries in (just in case of acid spill although I'm not expecting that). Also have the battery clamps I need - wasn't too keen on the large crocodile clips that came with the charger but I think they'll be fine. Will also add a touch of petroleum jelly to contacts I think so they don't corrode.

I'm setting it up upstairs although I did seriously consider having it downstairs in the conservatory (so on a slate rather than wooden floor) where I spend most of the day, thinking that I might spend evenings down here too but I actually like the change of going upstairs of an evening. Expecting the tray in a couple of days


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## MrCurry (Jun 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> All the bits have arrived and I've been through the 'structions a couple of times so I feel just about ready to set it up. I'm just waiting for a metal tray to put the batteries in (just in case of acid spill although I'm not expecting that). Also have the battery clamps I need - wasn't too keen on the large crocodile clips that came with the charger but I think they'll be fine. Will also add a touch of petroleum jelly to contacts I think so they don't corrode.
> 
> I'm setting it up upstairs although I did seriously consider having it downstairs in the conservatory (so on a slate rather than wooden floor) where I spend most of the day, thinking that I might spend evenings down here too but I actually like the change of going upstairs of an evening. Expecting the tray in a couple of days


Sounds good   I’m looking forward to hearing how it works out.


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## two sheds (Jun 27, 2022)

me too


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## existentialist (Jun 28, 2022)

Hmm.


Seems a lot to be in credit by, but since it's only going to get nastier, I might as well leave it there.


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## High Voltage (Jun 28, 2022)

After getting my account fully refunded and switched to a variable direct debit, imagine my delight when I logged into my Bulb account to be confronted with my account starting to creep into credit - the whole point of a variable DD is that my bill and only my bill is taken from our bank

Back onto bulb and it would appear that a DD takes between 4-10 days to get set up and I'd only switched over 8 days ago so was still under the old fixed DD arrangement. So I've now got my over payment back, again, and hopefully that'll be the end of it until the Bulb "thing" finally settles down and I know who my new supplier is


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## High Voltage (Jun 28, 2022)

Having had my last two communications with bulb via their on-line chat facility, I was initially reluctant, but now see the benefit. A simple <select all><copy><new text document><paste><save> and I've got my own record of the communication, including all "promises made"


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## two sheds (Jun 28, 2022)

That sounds good, and you've also got a name for the person you're talking to which is something it's easy to forget.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Jun 28, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Having had my last two communications with bulb via their on-line chat facility, I was initially reluctant, but now see the benefit. A simple <select all><copy><new text document><paste><save> and I've got my own record of the communication, including all "promises made"


most online chats I have used have an option to email a transcript at the end of the chat.


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## High Voltage (Jun 28, 2022)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> most online chats I have used have an option to email a transcript at the end of the chat.


Yes, I asked for that after my first call and low and behold . . . it never arrived, luckily I had my copy


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## Elpenor (Jun 30, 2022)

Are these smart meters?


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## kalmatthew (Jun 30, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Are these smart meters?
> 
> View attachment 329750View attachment 329751


Yes they are


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## weltweit (Jun 30, 2022)

Darn it ..

EON may have got me. £50 used to last 5 weeks but the last 50 lasted just 3 weeks.


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## Elpenor (Jun 30, 2022)

kalmatthew said:


> Yes they are


On investigation I think they’re credit meters as I think they’re showing a credit balance when I push the buttons to go through the display 

Hopefully I can change this to direct debit as I can’t be doing with topping stuff up all the time even if it can be done via an app


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## cesare (Jun 30, 2022)

Octopus just put up my DD to £210 from £78 per month


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## High Voltage (Jun 30, 2022)

I am in an ongoing battle with Bulb about my direct debit. I've been told that I am on a variable DD, which should only be charged what I've used but at the moment there still appears to be a DD total which is more than I'm using so will put me on credit each month.

We will see what next month brings


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 1, 2022)

cesare said:


> Octopus just put up my DD to £210 from £78 per month



Have you just come off a fixed price deal or was your account well in debit?

Because, if not, there's something wrong there, the price cap increase was 54%, not a 170%.


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I am in an ongoing battle with Bulb about my direct debit. I've been told that I am on a variable DD, which should only be charged what I've used but at the moment there still appears to be a DD total which is more than I'm using so will put me on credit each month.
> 
> We will see what next month brings



To be honest, I don't really see why you're having this much trouble . . . it begs the question are you doing something wrong??


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## cesare (Jul 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Have you just come off a fixed price deal or was your account well in debit?
> 
> Because, if not, there's something wrong there, the price cap increase was 54%, not a 170%.


They took over my last failed supplier (can't remember name) and didn't touch the DDs. This was about a year ago I think.  It was in debit by around £460 before they sent me the email saying this was what they were going to do so that my account would be on track by July 2023.


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Meanwhile OVO's glue sniffing department has increased their estimate of usage during June from just over 500kwh on the 8th, to almost 600kwh today [12th June], if this carries on, I should be on well over 1000kwh by the end of the month!



Total for June 'only' 738kwh, well short of the 1000+kwh prediction, I am a little disappointed TBH. 



My actual use being around 150kwh.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 1, 2022)

cesare said:


> They took over my last failed supplier (can't remember name) and didn't touch the DDs. This was about a year ago I think.  It was in debit by around £460 before they sent me the email saying this was what they were going to do so that my account would be on track by July 2023.



Oh, £460 in debit plus new rates from April would explain it, sadly.


----------



## cesare (Jul 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Oh, £460 in debit plus new rates from April would explain it, sadly.


Aye, that's what I thought. Still shows how much the costs have risen over such a relatively short time. £78 per month used to easily cover what I used.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 1, 2022)

So my new house setup is dual fuel, gas central heating / hot water. Boiler is a 9 yr old baxi. 

If I installed solar panels (orientation of house is SW) I could switch to an electricity based heating / hot water based solution - am I right?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2022)

You'd likely need battery backup (deep cycle lead acid batteries I think best/cheapest), plus a controller for £100 or so to use excess energy during the day to heat immersion. Air-air multi split heat pump for a couple of thousand to run off the batteries at night.

Eta: air-air heat pump assuming house is reasonably airtight.

I think


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 1, 2022)

Thanks - I’ve got a chunk of money left and it seems a good way to spend it given they’re only going to go up 

A mates brother in law lives nearby and is trained as an installer (he did his mums back in 2011) so perhaps he’s worth asking


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2022)

Yep, totally. Plus insulation anywhere it's needed. Is it newish house? Mine's 1850s and I didn't want to lose the sash windows so I went for magnetic strip secondary glazing plus heavy curtains which worked really well. I put up insulating wallpaper which has also done me proud. 

I've just ordered a final secondary glazing sheet and am stopping up/insulating some holes in the building fabric ready for winter, and looking for recognized Eco insulation installers but there don't seem to be any in Cornwall .   So I may have to do proper batten type insulation on one or more of the colder north-facing walls that are getting some damp.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 1, 2022)

It’s late 70s build and felt fairly warm yesterday tbh. There’s a hive unit I noticed connected to the boiler.

Think there is a reasonable amount of insulation in loft but not been up there yet.


----------



## cybershot (Jul 1, 2022)

cybershot said:


> I've took a calculated risk and took the plunge and fixed. I'm with E.On Next and now EDFs existing customer 24% increase offer has vanished, E.ON's existing customer offer at 30% more than the current price cap is the best fixed rate on the market, but you can only get it if you're an existing customer. I've decided to twist while It's still available. If my calculations are right I'll be paying more between now and October but overall it should work out £200 a year cheaper once the projected 46% increase comes in, in October, followed by another 1% in January. Whilst no forecasts for March and the way things are in this country at the moment, I can't see prices going down, so I made another 1% increase in March. Obviously it's all a bit attempting to crystal ball.
> 
> Reading some of the horror stories here E.On next have been pretty good. They take smart reader readings for the electric every month and adjust accordingly, and I supply them with monthly gas readings. I'm currently in credit again building up what would be the 'ready for winter credit' and the maths for their figures seems correct.
> 
> Good reading here: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/u...eap--fixed-energy-deals-currently-worth-it--/


Eon have now got rid of the '30% above current price cap fix for the next 12 months' and replaced it with one that's 43% more.
It's now predicted to go up 51% in October. If you want price certainty over winter it's time to seriously think about fixing.

I'm glad I twisted when I did which was just a couple weeks ago.

Do your own research obviously, as some of you seem to happy going with the pay with what your using approach, but I think you could be in for a shock come Winter having no pre built credit in the account! But everyone has to do what suits and fits them best. Fingers crossed there may be more help incoming. What pisses me off is the lack of help for those on the breadline. People will be quitting jobs soon because they can't afford to get there and will get extra help with bills by being unemployed instead and on benefits.

Govt huh!

link has been updated with the latest information from MSE. https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/u...eap--fixed-energy-deals-currently-worth-it--/


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> It’s late 70s build and felt fairly warm yesterday tbh. There’s a hive unit I noticed connected to the boiler.
> 
> Think there is a reasonable amount of insulation in loft but not been up there yet.


Random thoughts. 

Size of system depends on size of roof. I've got a 2 kW system (roof area about 10m x 4m) but you'd get more now because efficiencies are higher. Ideally you'd want to know your last year's consumption. You'll be getting loads of electricity that you can't really use during summer days (hence controller for immersion heater). I've been getting around 100 units/month each for March and April, 250 units/month May to August, ave 150 units/month September to November, and 40 units/month December to February (unfortunately when you need most). I'm presuming I'll have to put the immersion heater on for an hour a week in mid winter to avoid Legionnaires. And I'd get the all-black solar panels because they're much less obtrusive - mine are edged with aluminium which spoils the look I feel.    

There are Eco grants for insulation (cavity wall if it's not been done, otherwise external or internal wall insulation), also for heat pumps (air-to-water only though) and things if you can find an approved installer.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 1, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Eon have now got rid of the '30% above current price cap fix for the next 12 months' and replaced it with one that's 43% more.
> It's now predicted to go up 51% in October. If you want price certainty over winter it's time to seriously think about fixing.
> 
> I'm glad I twisted when I did which was just a couple weeks ago.
> ...



I've just checked with OVO, based on my actual use rather than their crazy estimates, a 1 year fixed deal is currently 65% more, so that's a no from me.

Whilst fixing at 45% when the price cap is forecast to go up 51% in Oct., and another 1% in Jan., looks good, the forecast is for it to come back down by 8% in April, so not much in it TBH, assuming the forecasts are right, which no one knows.

Example - £100 + 45% = £145pm

£100 + 51% = £151pm, that + 1% = £152.51pm, that - 8% = £140.31pm


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## High Voltage (Jul 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> To be honest, I don't really see why you're having this much trouble . . . it begs the question are you doing something wrong??


I’m going to get my £21’ish back don’t you worry

Which reminds me, what’s yours standing at now? I seem to get my refunds in a few days


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I’m going to get my £21’ish back don’t you worry
> 
> Which reminds me, what’s yours standing at now? I seem to get my refunds in a few days



I was just quoting your exact words to me, back at you, for a laugh. 

I am still waiting on the ombudsman, who are somewhat busy with complaints, no one has been appointed to investigate it as yet, despite the status changing to 'investigate' back on the 12th June. I am not concerned ATM, as their system is showing the 22nd July as the deadline for it to be resolved, and they have told me once a investigator is appointed it should be resolved in 5-7 working days.


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## Elpenor (Jul 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Random thoughts.
> 
> Size of system depends on size of roof. I've got a 2 kW system (roof area about 10m x 4m) but you'd get more now because efficiencies are higher. Ideally you'd want to know your last year's consumption. You'll be getting loads of electricity that you can't really use during summer days (hence controller for immersion heater). I've been getting around 100 units/month each for March and April, 250 units/month May to August, ave 150 units/month September to November, and 40 units/month December to February (unfortunately when you need most). I'm presuming I'll have to put the immersion heater on for an hour a week in mid winter to avoid Legionnaires. And I'd get the all-black solar panels because they're much less obtrusive - mine are edged with aluminium which spoils the look I feel.
> 
> There are Eco grants for insulation (cavity wall if it's not been done, otherwise external or internal wall insulation), also for heat pumps (air-to-water only though) and things if you can find an approved installer.


Very helpful - thanks


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## WouldBe (Jul 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> You'd likely need battery backup (deep cycle lead acid batteries I think best/cheapest), plus a controller for £100 or so to use excess energy during the day to heat immersion. Air-air multi split heat pump for a couple of thousand to run off the batteries at night.
> 
> Eta: air-air heat pump assuming house is reasonably airtight.
> 
> I think


Def go for batteries as well if you can afford it. I generated 17kw the other day and used 2kw from the grid. Also if you still get FIT payments they assume you use 50% of what you generate so I'm giving electricity away at the moment.


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## two sheds (Jul 1, 2022)

I get 4p a unit for anything fed back into the grid 



and yes to batteries, as I recall battery backup was hugely more expensive but I'm not quite sure why unless they're using Li-ion types which I'm not sure I fancy anyway.


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## WouldBe (Jul 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I get 4p a unit for anything fed back into the grid
> 
> 
> 
> and yes to batteries, as I recall battery backup was hugely more expensive but I'm not quite sure why unless they're using Li-ion types which I'm not sure I fancy anyway.


I think I get paid 5p a unit.

Yeah they do seem to use Lithium batteries for backup systems.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 2, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Eon have now got rid of the '30% above current price cap fix for the next 12 months' and replaced it with one that's 43% more.
> It's now predicted to go up 51% in October. If you want price certainty over winter it's time to seriously think about fixing.
> 
> I'm glad I twisted when I did which was just a couple weeks ago.
> ...


bollox missed it :-( dilly dallying and then got sidetracked


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 2, 2022)

Just got my Lambeth £150 post office voucher woop woop


----------



## gosub (Jul 5, 2022)

Oil and gas workers are on strike in Norway, and it's escalating Europe's natural-gas crisis a week before a key pipeline with Russia shuts for maintenance
					

Norway is the largest producer of oil and gas in Western Europe, supplying 20% to 25% of the European Union and UK's gas demand.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 5, 2022)

gosub said:


> Oil and gas workers are on strike in Norway, and it's escalating Europe's natural-gas crisis a week before a key pipeline with Russia shuts for maintenance
> 
> 
> Norway is the largest producer of oil and gas in Western Europe, supplying 20% to 25% of the European Union and UK's gas demand.
> ...


Need to set up loads of bio digesters and run them from solids from sewage works instead of drying it and burning it.


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## High Voltage (Jul 6, 2022)

4 months of "controlled" electricity usage


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## CH1 (Jul 6, 2022)

How did this happen?
Gas/Electricity useage June 2021

gas/electricity useage June 22


Looks like a 400% increased in gas price vs 100% on electricity.

And the new Chancellor the the Exchequer is apparently focused on cutting corporate taxes - if focusing is the right word for a man who had to apologise for claiming the heating bill for his horses' stables on House of Commons Allowances.


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 6, 2022)

CH1 said:


> How did this happen?
> Gas/Electricity useage June 2021
> View attachment 330765
> gas/electricity useage June 22
> ...



Were you on a fixed price plan last year, and now on the price cap rate?

Otherwise, assuming your usage hasn't increased, that doesn't seem right at all.


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## CH1 (Jul 6, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Were you on a fixed price plan last year, and now on the price cap rate?
> 
> Otherwise, assuming your usage hasn't increased, that doesn't seem right at all.


You are right - it was a fixed price plan last year.


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## two sheds (Jul 6, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> So my new house setup is dual fuel, gas central heating / hot water. Boiler is a 9 yr old baxi.
> 
> If I installed solar panels (orientation of house is SW) I could switch to an electricity based heating / hot water based solution - am I right?


Saw this today: 



			https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels/


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## existentialist (Jul 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Saw this today:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels/


I was rather surprised that, even with the swingeing increase in electricity costs, payback times are still so long...


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## two sheds (Jul 6, 2022)

Yes me too. I wonder whether that £400/year saving from 4 kW panels is right. I'm getting more than that from my 2 kW panels although I work from home so make best possible use of them.


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## WouldBe (Jul 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes me too. I wonder whether that £400/year saving from 4 kW panels is right. I'm getting more than that from my 2 kW panels although I work from home so make best possible use of them.


That new system doesn't seem to pay for what you generate only what you export. So we get most of our income from the generation tariff.

Still think they are all being stingy with their rates.


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## two sheds (Jul 6, 2022)

Yes I'm not getting a lot for exporting at 4p/unit. Would have been nice if they'd increased them in line with what I'm paying but I suppose the initial rate when I signed up was fairly generous (particularly since I got back half of the total cost from the supplier because the bloke dealing with it was an arsehole). 

Am hoping to have an update on the charger/batteries/inverter tonight


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## existentialist (Jul 6, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> That new system doesn't seem to pay for what you generate only what you export. So we get most of our income from the generation tariff.
> 
> Still think they are all being stingy with their rates.


If there were any honesty in the whole market, they'd at least be offering you back some percentage of what you're paying. As it is, getting 3p/kWh back when you're paying 28p/kWh is always going to look like someone's taking the piss.


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## two sheds (Jul 6, 2022)

So, I took my life in my hands and connected up the charger to the batteries and the inverter, topped up the charge in the batteries and the charger showed 12.8 V. I plugged in a 4W LED light to test it last night and it worked 

for about 10 minutes then went out  . I decided probably the inverter since the charger and batteries seemed to be working. The screen tells me three things but I don’t quite know what they are because they sent me the instructions for a similar but different version. After several oh fucks I thought I’ll change the light and it worked .

So am now on battery power  . The display shows that I’m taking 100 to 125 W, and interestingly shows how power varies moment to moment as you do stuff. Above about 120 W the inverter fan kicks in, and loading web pages and I presume disk accesses make nice whooshing sounds (not when the screen shows a lot of white though). Sounds a bit like a racing game when I’m scrolling up and down  and you do know when you’re taking a backup. The inverter is running nice and cool though.

So thank you people, will see whether the charger works properly tomorrow. Hopeful.


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## MrCurry (Jul 7, 2022)

100 to 125W is quite a lot of load if it’s running continuously, because the inverter has some “Self consumption“ which is draining the battery a bit even before that 100-odd watts is added.  Mind you, I guess it’s only for the evening then next day you can recharge from solar, and didn’t you have a reasonable sized battery?

I suppose you must be taking around 10A from the battery when that load is connected (10A x 12V = 120W), so you can divide your battery amp hours by 10 for an approx duration before you hit empty. Batteries lose a bit of energy in heat due to internal resistance and also can’t be discharged down to zero, so you’ll never get quite as much duration as you calculate.


 Hopefully it all works well for you. Now you can experiment adding more loads via a mains distribution block and pretty soon you’ll have a solar powered cold beer in your hands! 🍻


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## Artaxerxes (Jul 7, 2022)

Starting to notice the shopping bills go properly up now.


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## two sheds (Jul 7, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> 100 to 125W is quite a lot of load if it’s running continuously, because the inverter has some “Self consumption“ which is draining the battery a bit even before that 100-odd watts is added.  Mind you, I guess it’s only for the evening then next day you can recharge from solar, and didn’t you have a reasonable sized battery?
> 
> I suppose you must be taking around 10A from the battery when that load is connected (10A x 12V = 120W), so you can divide your battery amp hours by 10 for an approx duration before you hit empty. Batteries lose a bit of energy in heat due to internal resistance and also can’t be discharged down to zero, so you’ll never get quite as much duration as you calculate.
> 
> ...


Yep I've got two 108 Ah batteries that will actually give 90 Ah or so 2 kWh and I only need 120 W for 6 or 7 hours in the evening for the computer upstairs. It was a low power i3 processor when I got it but that was a good 5 years ago so suggestions upthread of getting a lower power one are sensible when the time comes. It's also using a 30 W monitor so I'll try replacing that with a new 13 W monitor I bought recently. There's also a UPS which looks like it takes a continuous 10 W which I hopefully won't need if the system keeps working as it did last night.

I gave myself another (metaphorical) shock this morning. I switched the charger on and there was nothing. The display was lit because that's powered from the battery but the fan didn't come on and the current stayed resolutely at 0.0 A. Another fuck fuck couple of hours thinking about it particularly because I'd cut the crocodile clips off to give a good connection to the battery so imaginary discussions with the supplier about replacements weren't going well  .

I then had a similar thought to the 'lightbulb' moment I'd had with the inverter, and I'd been using a shaver adapter for the two-pin power plug and the 1A fuse had blown .

It's been a lovely sunny day so charging nicely for about 7 hours at 15 A today. Full charge will be about 8 hours at 20 A I think.
So thanks for the charger and inverter recommendations, appreciated . It could all have gone horribly wrong if you'd let me get what I first suggested.  

I did actually meet someone who said he'd bought a tesla battery a couple of years ago and was charging that using economy 7 at night so this could all be more widely applicable.


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## Elpenor (Jul 8, 2022)

Roof on a sunny day at 2pm. Suppose I should check every hour?

Edit - not a video but a screenshot of a video


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## two sheds (Jul 8, 2022)

or check times when sun starts hitting roof and when finishes


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## Elpenor (Jul 8, 2022)

Yeah I should have checked this morning really. Still glorious weather on the peninsula for the next week or so so plenty of options to check another day


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## two sheds (Jul 8, 2022)

I'm SSW and my peak times are 11ish to 5.30ish when the sun goes behind a tree. Gives loads .. on  a good day (yesterday 10 kWh from 2 kW panels).


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## two sheds (Jul 8, 2022)

How big is your roof?


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## Elpenor (Jul 8, 2022)

Just looked at estate agent floorplan - the house is 4.5m wide and goes back about 7m or so

So the roof will be the same distance wide and ??? up to the ridge


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## cesare (Jul 8, 2022)

We should have a solar panel thread from the experts. 🙏


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## two sheds (Jul 8, 2022)

The roof is 7m long so 3.5m across useful roof so roof length 4.5m (wild guess though) to go with the 4.5 m width? That's small. I think mine is about 11m x 4.5 m? If that's right you'd only be getting 1 kW or so depending on how efficient panels are now compared to fiver or six years ago. 

Yes sorry, there's bound to be a solar PV thread we could decamp to. No expert here though, I just have some.


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## cesare (Jul 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> The roof is 7m long so 3.5m across useful roof so roof length 4.5m (wild guess though) to go with the 4.5 m width? That's small. I think mine is about 11m x 4.5 m? If that's right you'd only be getting 1 kW or so depending on how efficient panels are now compared to fiver or six years ago.
> 
> Yes sorry, there's bound to be a solar PV thread we could decamp to. No expert here though, I just have some.


I didn't mean decamp! I just meant that it's so interesting we could have an additional thread that's got extra solar panel stuff. We're thinking of it but don't really know how it works    I was being complimentary.


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## two sheds (Jul 8, 2022)

Oops sorry   I'm a bit conscious that it's bloody lucky having panels and relatively few people have them.


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## WouldBe (Jul 8, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Just looked at estate agent floorplan - the house is 4.5m wide and goes back about 7m or so
> 
> So the roof will be the same distance wide and ??? up to the ridge


I wouldn't go by estate agents. House near me is advertised as open plan yet had 4 separate rooms on the ground floor. Also supposedly has a South facing garden when it actually faces North. 

If those roof tiles are Marley type then they cover about 1 square foot (1 foot up by 1 foot wide) so you could just count them to give you a good idea of roof area.


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## Elpenor (Jul 8, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> I wouldn't go by estate agents. House near me is advertised as open plan yet had 4 separate rooms on the ground floor. Also supposedly has a South facing garden when it actually faces North. :Hmm:
> 
> If those roof tiles are Marley type then they cover about 1 square foot (1 foot up by 1 foot wide) so you could just count them to give you a good idea of roof area.



best I can do without getting up with a tape measure which won’t be happening


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## WouldBe (Jul 8, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> best I can do without getting up with a tape measure which won’t be happening


Width is easy you can do that at ground level.


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## cesare (Jul 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Oops sorry   I'm a bit conscious that it's bloody lucky having panels and relatively few people have them.


We're keen but don't even know where to start to see if feasible!


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## Elpenor (Jul 8, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Width is easy you can do that at ground level.


God I’m thick sometimes


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## two sheds (Jul 8, 2022)

South Westish facing roof that isn't overhung by trees so it gets sun all day when there is any sun is best. 

I've thought South Westish but that's solar thermal panels, due south might be best.


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## Elpenor (Jul 8, 2022)

210-230 degrees on your phone compass app?


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## two sheds (Jul 8, 2022)

I have no phone compass app  180 would be due south if you're starting at north. And yes it's south that's best









						What is the best direction for solar panels to face?
					

South is the best direction for solar panels for overall output. But what if you have a battery system, or there are high TOU rates where you live?




					www.solarreviews.com
				




So 30 to 50 degrees off south? There must be a website that does all that.


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## Elpenor (Jul 8, 2022)

Roof still covered in sun at 4pm, will resist hourly updates I’d be like High Voltage with his electric usage meter thing   

Looking like I will get enough sun if it’s  in sunlight from mid morning. Next plan is to knock on the door of the people locally who have them and ask who they used to install and if there any good. Google maps has lots of uses


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## WouldBe (Jul 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I have no phone compass app  180 would be due south if you're starting at north. And yes it's south that's best
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mine are ESE and start generating about 7am.

There is a website that works it all out but can't remember what it is.


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## two sheds (Jul 8, 2022)

Mine start about 8 am but don't really get going until 10.

Elpenor is anything shading your roof in the morning? If not you should be fine - not sure what the cost would be though.

I've got 8 panels for the 2 kW. I checked and standard domestic size is:


39 inches65 inches1.5 inches

so about 1 m x 1.6 m. so that's going to determine how many panels on the roof and power output.


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## High Voltage (Jul 8, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> will resist hourly updates I’d be like High Voltage with his electric usage meter thing



And that would be a bad thing????


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## two sheds (Jul 8, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Roof still covered in sun at 4pm, will resist hourly updates I’d be like High Voltage with his electric usage meter thing
> 
> Looking like I will get enough sun if it’s  in sunlight from mid morning. Next plan is to knock on the door of the people locally who have them and ask who they used to install and if there any good. Google maps has lots of uses


how's the roof?


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## WouldBe (Jul 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> how's the roof?


Still there hopefully.


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## Elpenor (Jul 8, 2022)

Was still there and covered in sun at 5pm

Will check in the morning


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## Elpenor (Jul 9, 2022)

I know you’ve been waiting patiently for an update two sheds - just checked and it’s in full sunlight now


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## two sheds (Jul 9, 2022)

and there's been nothing shading it until now?


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## Elpenor (Jul 9, 2022)

two sheds said:


> and there's been nothing shading it until now?


I was out from 8:30am but there seemed to be no shade then


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## donkyboy (Jul 9, 2022)

..


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## donkyboy (Jul 9, 2022)

..


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## teqniq (Jul 10, 2022)

Apologies if already posted, just seen this on Twitter:









						Don't Pay
					

Don’t Pay is a grassroots campaign opposing the rise in energy bills. We demand:




					dontpay.uk


----------



## CH1 (Jul 10, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Apologies if already posted, just seen this on Twitter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Careful - guidance








						If you’ve been told your energy supply will be disconnected
					

What should happen before you're disconnected, circumstances in which you shouldn't be disconnected, the disconnection process, where to get more advice and support.




					www.citizensadvice.org.uk
				




People doing this could escape disconnection if they are pensioners, disabilities, have young children etc.
The immediate response would be to install a pre-payment meter according to CAB.

Could be interesting if 10 million pre-payment meters had to be ordered from Huawei in China I suppose!


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## CH1 (Jul 10, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Careful - guidance
> 
> 
> 
> ...


SMART METER ALERT

CAB think they can disconnect you if you have a Smart Meter without entering the premises
If you have a ‘smart meter’​If you have a smart energy meter in your home, your supplier could potentially disconnect your supply remotely without needing access to your meter. However, before they do this, they must have:


contacted you to discuss options for repaying your debt, eg through a repayment plan
visited your home to assess your personal situation and whether this would affect you being disconnected, eg if you’re disabled or elderly
If they don’t do this and they try and disconnect you, make a complaint to your supplier.


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## NoXion (Jul 10, 2022)

CH1 said:


> SMART METER ALERT
> 
> CAB think they can disconnect you if you have a Smart Meter without entering the premises
> If you have a ‘smart meter’​If you have a smart energy meter in your home, your supplier could potentially disconnect your supply remotely without needing access to your meter. However, before they do this, they must have:
> ...



Another reason why smart meters need to fuck off. The idea that they had _anything_ to do with the good of the end-user was always a complete and utter fucking scam.


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## contadino (Jul 10, 2022)

There's a useful tool on the energy saving trust website that lets you estimate the yield from panels on your roof. I thought we'd get very little as not south facing, but it seems we'd get a respectable amount.





__





						Solar Energy Calculator | Energy Saving Trust
					





					www.pvfitcalculator.energysavingtrust.org.uk
				




You have to provide the pitch of the roof (they suggest a default) and calculate the size available for panels, and there's a load of assumptions about whether the roof is structurally suitable, etc...


----------



## two sheds (Jul 10, 2022)

contadino said:


> There's a useful tool on the energy saving trust website that lets you estimate the yield from panels on your roof. I thought we'd get very little as not south facing, but it seems we'd get a respectable amount.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's really good, ta, will check my system against it. That controller I got for heating the immersion from near free (4p/unit) energy will improve the benefits. Equivalent to having free hot water for most of the year (around 1.5 kWh/day I'd have thought).


----------



## two sheds (Jul 11, 2022)

My induction hob went bang yesterday  . It looks like Tefal give a 2-year guarantee though so hopefully will get it replaced.

I was thinking that I'd have to fire up the Rayburn but then remembered I have a Kelly Kettle. A few twigs and some paper and I had enough hot water to do the washing up, give me a cup of coffee and enough hot water for the dog's food


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 12, 2022)

Sky is reporting the head of OFGEM has finally admitted the estimate of the price cap increase, from around £2k to £2.8k, is somewhat on the low side, but wouldn't confirm their current projections.

Meanwhile Cornwall Insight thinks it will be around £3.3k now.  



> The research firm Cornwall Insight published new, higher forecasts that show the energy price cap is on track to rise to £3,244 a year in October, when it is next adjusted, as wholesale prices continue to soar. The default tariff cap is expected to be raised again in January, to £3,363 a year, up significantly from the £3,003 Cornwall Insight forecast just two weeks ago.
> 
> 
> The cap, which is set quarterly by the energy industry regulator, Ofgem, is currently at a record £1,971 a year.











						UK energy bills ‘could hit more than £3,300 a year this winter’
					

Energy price cap likely to be raised in October and January, adding to cost of living crisis, says research firm




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 12, 2022)

One of the most upsetting aspect of this shit for me is the early exit fees being rammed on to Fixed Term contracts - they know we're going to be looking to get as cheap as possible as soon as possible and are directly working to fuck us over. Absolute profiteering cunts.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 12, 2022)

Meanwhile, a bit of good news, my complaint with the ombudsman changed status back on 12th June from 'prepare case' to 'investigate', and finally yesterday a case investigator was appointed and called me for a chat, we had a good few laughs over it all, she said it's probably the worst over-billing case she's ever dealt with.

She's got to speak with OVO next, and thinks it should be easily resolved now, as they have already admitted they are wrong, and following a meter reader turning-up on the 22nd June, they have finally corrected my meter reading on their site, reducing it from 19015 to 14651, a different of 4,364 kwh, equal to over 2.5 years of my actual usage overcharged, and certainly over £1,000. 

She thinks she will be able to issue her decision before the end of this week, a week before her deadline, and will call me to discuss it before publishing it on the website and advising OVO of her ruling, although she did warn that it could still take a few weeks for OVO to do all the re-billing, so the over-charged amounts are re-credited based on accurate tariff rates at various points over the last couple of years. She has enough meter readings at the key points and will be keeping a close eye on how they re-estimate all those bills, as I will too, but again she doesn't expect any real issues now.

Also, I've just looked on the OVO site and I see my account balance has been changed from a debit of £338 yesterday to a credit £233, which is nice, but not right, I am assuming that adjustment is just one part of the over-charge, i.e. there're two elements, the over-charge whilst I was still on the SSE system up to 22nd Dec. 2021, then the one on the OVO system since. And, on the DD section of the site it now says 'We can’t show you a payment recommendation right now.' 

So, everything is finally moving.


----------



## chainsawjob (Jul 12, 2022)

Haven't posted on this thread before as we've been on a 2 year fixed tariff of £120 pm (4 bed semi, 3-4 occupants), but this is now ending. We're with So Energy. They've removed the option to choose another fixed deal (because, they say, prices are likely to fluctuate for the foreseeable i.e. rise), and when your current fixed tariff ends, you go onto their Flex rate, which they say is 'relatively low'.

Just got the quote, and our new monthly DD will be £196, which doesn't seem too bad compared to the rises some people have had. Still, £76 extra a month to find though, not an inconsiderable amount.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 12, 2022)

chainsawjob said:


> Haven't posted on this thread before as we've been on a 2 year fixed tariff of £120 pm (4 bed semi, 3-4 occupants), but this is now ending. We're with So Energy. They've removed the option to choose another fixed deal (because, they say, prices are likely to fluctuate for the foreseeable i.e. rise), and when your current fixed tariff ends, you go onto their Flex rate, which they say is 'relatively low'.
> 
> Just got the quote, and our new monthly DD will be £196, which doesn't seem too bad compared to the rises some people have had. Still, £76 extra a month to find though, not an inconsiderable amount.



That's not too bad considering you're coming off a fixed deal, but as you say, still a lot extra per month to find.

Then another bloody hike come Oct.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 13, 2022)

Just had a call from the lovely lady at the ombudsman, her decision is -

1 - Re-billing from OVO, inc. the SSE branded ones, going back two years.

2 - Interest on all credit balances on all the re-bills at 3%.

3 - A goodwill payment of £150, which is what I asked for in my original complaint, OVO offered £100, which is when I cheekily suggested it should actually be increased to £200, not expecting more than the £100, so I am very happy with that.

4 - They have 28 days to settle the matter, and the case remains open with the ombudsman until they do.

After 6 months of trying to get this resolved, I am so relieved, especially with the interest even during the period I was still on the SSE system, and the £150 goodwill payment too.



High Voltage said:


> Part of me is going to be sad when you finally resolve your on going OVO issue



I hope you are not too disappointed.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 13, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Just had a call from the lovely lady at the ombudsman, her decision is -
> 
> 1 - Re-billing from OVO, inc. the SSE branded ones, going back two years.
> 
> ...


Saw this and thought of you...









						Ofgem tells energy firms to take urgent action to fix direct debit problems
					

Regulator is concerned that gas and electricity customers may fall into debt or overpay unless improvements are made




					www.theguardian.com
				




Although I note OVO isn't named...


----------



## High Voltage (Jul 13, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I hope you are not too disappointed.


Y'haven't got it yet. There's still mileage in this


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 14, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Y'haven't got it yet. There's still mileage in this





The final decision has now been uploaded to the ombudsman's website, I do like this bit...



> However, as I believe that the shortfalls in service you have encountered has been significant, I do believe that the company should acknowledge this. OVO Energy have offered an apology and a goodwill gesture of £100.00 and while I appreciate this is a generous offer, I do feel that the time this has been going on for as well as the impact, the amount needs to be increased. Therefore, as a remedy, I will advise OVO Energy to issue you with an apology and a goodwill gesture of £150.00 which should be applied to your energy account.


----------



## Saunders (Jul 14, 2022)

Re solar PVs, has anyone noticed their efficiency dropping over time? I haven’t kept an accurate log for mine but they do seem to be generating less than when they were originally installed.


----------



## prunus (Jul 14, 2022)

Saunders said:


> Re solar PVs, has anyone noticed their efficiency dropping over time? I haven’t kept an accurate log for mine but they do seem to be generating less than when they were originally installed.



Not me, but a friend with SPVs definitely did.  It was due to them getting a bit grubby - even a very thin coating of dust and grime can noticeably attenuate the sun's rays it seems.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 14, 2022)

Saunders said:


> Re solar PVs, has anyone noticed their efficiency dropping over time? I haven’t kept an accurate log for mine but they do seem to be generating less than when they were originally installed.


I'm not sure where I saw it, but I remember when we had panels installed about 9 years ago I was told/read that they can lose about 1% efficiency a year.


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## JoeyBoy (Jul 14, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Have you asked your landlord for the £150? Because it should go to you.
> 
> This is from North Kesteven District Council's website -
> 
> ...


The Landlord has given me the £150!! He ignored me and the others for a couple of weeks then suddenly relented and paid us all off.  We were all convinced he would just keep ignoring us since he knows there isn't really much we could actually do.
But we stood together and he just suddenly gave in. SOLIDARITY !!
The only question is whether I put it on the leccy, buy food or drink it. I'm leaning towards the last.


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 14, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> The Landlord has given me the £150!! He ignored me and the others for a couple of weeks then suddenly relented and paid us all off.  We were all convinced he would just keep ignoring us since he knows there isn't really much we could actually do.
> But we stood together and he just suddenly gave in. SOLIDARITY !!
> The only question is whether I put it on the leccy, buy food or drink it. I'm leaning towards the last.



Glad you followed it up, and got the right result.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 14, 2022)

prunus said:


> Not me, but a friend with SPVs definitely did.  It was due to them getting a bit grubby - even a very thin coating of dust and grime can noticeably attenuate the sun's rays it seems.


Not noticeably with mine, the grime sounds a possible reason. We're mainly getting winds off the Atlantic here.


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## High Voltage (Jul 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> View attachment 332198
> 
> The final decision has now been uploaded to the ombudsman's website, I do like this bit...


So, been able to spend your "refund" yet??

In other news

I'VE GOT MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## High Voltage (Jul 18, 2022)

Just sayin'


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 18, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> So, been able to spend your "refund" yet??
> 
> In other news
> 
> I'VE GOT MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I am not planning to get a refund, OVO pays 3% interest on credit balances, so I'll leave it with them.


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## High Voltage (Jul 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> . . .OVO pays 3% interest on credit balances, so I'll leave it with them.



The amount you've got with them, that'll bankrupt 'em


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## CH1 (Jul 18, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> The amount you've got with them, that'll bankrupt 'em


This is the British approach to business. Remember when Abbey National tried to turn itself into a coffee shop - then got taken over by Santander?
Ovo is now turning itself into a bank. They are clearly doing better than the Halifax - maybe I can transfer in my 0.5% ISA?


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## stdP (Jul 18, 2022)

CH1 said:


> This is the British approach to business. Remember when Abbey National tried to turn itself into a coffee shop - then got taken over by Santander?
> Ovo is now turning itself into a bank. They are clearly doing better than the Halifax - maybe I can transfer in my 0.5% ISA?



How does their current account Ampere to the rest of the field?


----------



## kenny g (Jul 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Another reason why smart meters need to fuck off. The idea that they had _anything_ to do with the good of the end-user was always a complete and utter fucking scam.


Anything that requires untold amounts of promotion to install free of charge has a slight scam ring of the bell to my mind. Have always given an anglo saxon response to the very idea,


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## prunus (Jul 19, 2022)

stdP said:


> How does their current account Ampere to the rest of the field?



It’s transformertive!


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## Artaxerxes (Jul 21, 2022)

Help Out to Eat Out is here.









						Discounts for Brits on shopping and phone bills in new cost of living campaign
					

Big names like Asda, Sainsburys, Vodafone and Morrisons are taking part in the Government's new 'Help for Households' campaign for Brits struggling with rising costs




					www.mirror.co.uk


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## MickiQ (Jul 21, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Help Out to Eat Out is here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MrCurry (Jul 24, 2022)

I’ve just signed up to new 12 month contract at 2.64 Swedish kronor per kWh, that’s 21.3p per unit. Not sure how that compares to current U.K. prices, but it’s a massive hike for us, as we’ve been paying just 0.46kr/KWh for the past five years. 😭 I’ve gone with a fixed rate for 12 months because I don’t want to take the chance on variable rates this winter with Putin maybe switching off his gas.


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 24, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> I’ve just signed up to new 12 month contract at 2.64 Swedish kronor per kWh, that’s 21.3p per unit. Not sure how that compares to current U.K. prices, but it’s a massive hike for us, as we’ve been paying just 0.45kr/KWh for the past five years. 😭 I’ve gone with a fixed rate for 12 months because I don’t want to take the chance on variable rates this winter with Putin maybe switching off his gas.



My electric is 28.08p per KWh, so over 30% more.

Then there's the standing charge of 39.67p per day, about £12pm.

All those are before 5% VAT is added.


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## MrCurry (Jul 24, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> My electric is 28.08p per KWh, so over 30% more.
> 
> Then there's the standing charge of 39.67p per day, about £12pm.
> 
> All those are before 5% VAT is added.


£21/month standing charge here. Interesting to hear the kWh rate is higher over there though!


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## platinumsage (Jul 24, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> £21/month standing charge here. Interesting to hear the kWh rate is higher over there though!



You have lots of hydro and not much gas, so not really a surprise.


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## smmudge (Jul 24, 2022)

Got the dreaded email from Eon that our fixed rate is ending soon 😭 the best variable rate is 60% more than our current DD, the best fixed rate is over 200% more... can do the variable but sure it won't be long until that goes up some more.


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 26, 2022)

OVO had 14 days to accept or appeal the ombudsman's decision, from the date it was uploaded on the system, finally yesterday, 11 days in, they accepted it and have already credited my account with the £150 'goodwill' payment.  

They have deleted all electric usage charges since I was switched to the OVO system in Jan., pending the re-billing from the SSE system, and getting a correct closing credit balance to transfer over to my OVO account, then they can re-bill this year at the correct amounts, so it's all moving along. Even my estimated use has changed, from the frankly ridiculous 689kwh in June to just 120kwh so far this month, which is about right, 

Despite only paying £1 in July, and because of the above, my account is now showing a credit of £350, whereas it had been over £300 in debit, there's still a few hundred more to be credited, but they now have until 23th August to sort that out, by which time my second DD payment of just £1 will have been made.


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## Elpenor (Jul 26, 2022)

Saw this post on local freecycle   



> Hi, I am looking for a sofa bed, or chair bed, or maybe a futon please, if anyone has one they don't need anymore? (not leather or feather) I am trying to prepare for winter, as not going to be able to afford heating, so planning (sadly) to be in one room, thanks for reading, Pensioner, best wishes


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## BristolEcho (Jul 26, 2022)

Lol Eon. 

My contract ends with them in October (damn) and they have written to me saying that I need to increase my direct debit with them to by about £18 to ensure my account will read £69 (doesn't say credit or debit) in 12 months time even though my contract runs out before then. 

They say this is because I'm in £89 debt based on yesterday's reading, but this month's direct debit hasn't been taken out yet so it's actually around £20, by October I will be roughly £18 in debt, maybe a bit more,  but I will pay it off in full then when my contract ends. Wondering if they are trying to ensure they owe people money before they come to the end of their contract to ensure people don't just refuse to pay. 

I'll just stop giving them monthly readings at this rate as my usage has been stable through the summer. 

Anyway basically I don't need to up my payments by £20 odd quid just to ensure I stay in credit.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 26, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> Lol Eon.
> 
> My contract ends with them in October (damn) and they have written to me saying that I need to increase my direct debit with them to by about £18 to ensure my account will read £69 (doesn't say credit or debit) in 12 months time even though my contract runs out before then.
> 
> ...


I'm with them and they regularly send me a statement on the day of the DD (which doesn't show yet in the account) saying I owe them, transparent dimwits.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 27, 2022)

I’ve just found this thingy which was left for me by the houses previous owners - have finally figured out what it is!



At least I have a new hobby  

Oddly it seems to connect to my wifi despite there being no way to enter the Wi-Fi details - or perhaps instead it talks to the smart meter?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 27, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Oddly it seems to connect to my wifi despite there being no way to enter the Wi-Fi details - or perhaps instead it talks to the smart meter?



It talks to the smart meter(s), I had new meters installed this morning, so I've had one of those displays for the last two hours, and I am bored looking at the fucking thing already.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 27, 2022)

Fuck:


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 27, 2022)

Apparently now that Mad Vlad the Bad has cut off the gas to Germany, prices are soaring. Current wholesale gas prices are 6 times what they were a year ago


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 27, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Apparently now that Mad Vlad the Bad has cut off the gas to Germany, prices are soaring. Current wholesale gas prices are 6 times what they were a year ago



Rishi says we can sort it out by magic efficiency gains so it'll all be ok.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 27, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Rishi says we can sort it out by magic efficiency gains so it'll all be ok.


Whilst also saying no more land-based windfarms.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Rishi says we can sort it out by magic efficiency gains so it'll all be ok.


That's beyond the reach of even the strongest magic


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 27, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Rishi says we can sort it out by magic efficiency gains so it'll all be ok.


Along with the free fucking unicorn per household right?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 27, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Along with the free fucking unicorn per household right?



No your not getting anything for free, pay back what you get you freeloader


----------



## Storm Fox (Jul 27, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Along with the free fucking unicorn per household right?


Oh good, I assume they are going to create a huge grant fund to allow the upgrading of the housing stock.

Otherwise it's just words and there's no way a Tory would bullshit is there


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 27, 2022)

smmudge said:


> Got the dreaded email from Eon that our fixed rate is ending soon 😭 the best variable rate is 60% more than our current DD, the best fixed rate is over 200% more... can do the variable but sure it won't be long until that goes up some more.



We were lucky to get a new 2 year fixed price deal last October before prices went completely insane. Didn't feel lucky at the time though, as it was still a 50% increase on our previous price. 

200% would take us out of the game. It'd be over half our food budget gone.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 27, 2022)

This is what EDF are offering me and its like a bucket of warm sick. I've been putting it off due to the (hopeful) move and in the vague hopes the government will FUCKING DO SOMETHING.

At this rate I'll have to switch to total-long term at the weekend, don't see any other options.




300 quid early fucking exit is taking the piss.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 27, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> We were lucky to get a new 2 year fixed price deal last October before prices went completely insane. Didn't feel lucky at the time though, as it was still a 50% increase on our previous price.
> 
> 200% would take us out of the game. It'd be over half our food budget gone.



That is lucky, enjoy it while it lasts! We lived in hope that the govt would do something before we needed to renew, let's be real that's not going to happen. I plan to rinse it before our renewal date, clean the carpets, recharge all our reusable batteries, do all the nighttime jobs etc


----------



## BristolEcho (Jul 27, 2022)

*I had a response and have redacted private parts. I may delete this so please don't quote 

I need to make you aware that you can view our complaints handling procedure at redacted.*


I am sorry about this


I can confirm I have amended your direct debit back to the original amount of £69.00 payable monthly.



*We have investigated thoroughly and have done everything we can our end in order to rectify the issue. As per our business process we have progressed this complaint as far as we are able to, and on that basis we will now be closing your complaint. If you need any further support at any point please feel free to reach out to us for more support.

--*
I'm definitely going to push it further as their whole approach has been totally disingenuous. Firstly making out my debt was more than it is, and then also making out that payments would make sure I would be in credit in 12 months when my contract ends in 3 months.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 28, 2022)

Herein lies the major part of the problem:









						British Gas owner Centrica profits increase five-fold as energy bills soar
					

Company reinstates dividend after suspending it for three years




					www.independent.co.uk
				












						Biden says US economic slowdown due to Fed inflation-fighting measures – as it happened
					

US president says growth affected by moves to tackle inflation as US enters technical recession




					www.theguardian.com
				




I get the impression from this that he is actually not given to hysteria but is actually genuinely worried:


----------



## BristolEcho (Jul 31, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> *I had a response and have redacted private parts. I may delete this so please don't quote
> 
> I need to make you aware that you can view our complaints handling procedure at redacted.*
> 
> ...


I pushed it and they gave me £10 credit.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 3, 2022)

Note how prices are not only expected to rise dramatically in October, but stay at that level for at least a year:


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 3, 2022)

So, the smart meters were installed last week, after 4 days I noticed the electric charge seemed a bit high, then I noticed the amount charged by 6am averaged a higher cost per hour than during the day when I am clearly using more, that made no sense.

So, I started to think, 'oh, fuck, here we go again', and dreading having to contact OVO again. 

Then I had a light bulb moment, remembering it's a touch screen monitor, I touched the amount and if by magic it changed to show kwh used, which was what I expected, then the penny dropped that the amount shown includes the daily standing charge, which is added just after midnight, and also includes the VAT. 

Not that that's mentioned in the handy guide they give me, in fact it actually says the amount is for 'use', but a quick google search confirmed my conclusion.

Can't believe I was almost out smarted by a bloody meter thingy!


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> So, the smart meters were installed last week, after 4 days I noticed the electric charge seemed a bit high, then I noticed the amount charged by 6am averaged a higher cost per hour than during the day when I am clearly using more, that made no sense.
> 
> So, I started to think, 'oh, fuck, here we go again', and dreading having to contact OVO again.
> 
> ...


Don't call them smart meters for nothing.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Can't believe I was almost out smarted by a bloody meter thingy!


We however, are a bit less surprised.


----------



## surreybrowncap (Aug 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> So, the smart meters were installed last week, after 4 days I noticed the electric charge seemed a bit high, then I noticed the amount charged by 6am averaged a higher cost per hour than during the day when I am clearly using more, that made no sense.
> 
> So, I started to think, 'oh, fuck, here we go again', and dreading having to contact OVO again.
> 
> ...


They'll be charging you for that _light bulb moment...._


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 3, 2022)

emanymton said:


> We however, are a bit less surprised.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> So, the smart meters were installed last week, after 4 days I noticed the electric charge seemed a bit high, then I noticed the amount charged by 6am averaged a higher cost per hour than during the day when I am clearly using more, that made no sense.
> 
> So, I started to think, 'oh, fuck, here we go again', and dreading having to contact OVO again.
> 
> ...


I did not know but it does make sense


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> So, the smart meters were installed last week, after 4 days I noticed the electric charge seemed a bit high, then I noticed the amount charged by 6am averaged a higher cost per hour than during the day when I am clearly using more, that made no sense.
> 
> So, I started to think, 'oh, fuck, here we go again', and dreading having to contact OVO again.
> 
> ...


Lol even I figured that out for myself


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 3, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I did not know but it does make sense



It does, or least it would if the guide said the amount includes the standing charge & VAT, whereas it just says 'use', that was the root of my confusion.

So, I blame OVO.


----------



## mentalchik (Aug 3, 2022)

I'm obviously in a bubble at the moment....don't pay by DD, pay quarterly bills which i usually split into 2 payments with no hassle, am on a fixed rate till next April and my latest quarterly bill is actally £130 less than the last one !


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 3, 2022)

mentalchik said:


> I'm obviously in a bubble at the moment....don't pay by DD, pay quarterly bills which i usually split into 2 payments with no hassle, am on a fixed rate till next April and my latest quarterly bill is actally £130 less than the last one !


I had a nice fixed rate till April 2023 until I moved and was no longer on economy 7!


----------



## teqniq (Aug 3, 2022)

Petition: Nationalise Energy Companies
					

The Government needs to take back ownership of strategic energy assets.  It needs to accept that the Free Market has failed the energy sector, that it is in the national interest to renationalise our energy assets.  The Government must therefore renationalise all the UK energy assets.




					petition.parliament.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2022)

You'll like this Ofgem confirms energy price cap to be updated every three months but not a lot


----------



## CH1 (Aug 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You'll like this Ofgem confirms energy price cap to be updated every three months but not a lot


What's the point of calling it a cap then?
A cap would be a government limit above which they cannot go - determined by the government.
All OFGEM do is follow the market - and distribute the wreckage when their authorised retail sellers go bust.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2022)

CH1 said:


> What's the point of calling it a cap then?
> A cap would be a government limit above which they cannot go - determined by the government.
> All OFGEM do is follow the market - and distribute the wreckage when their authorised retail sellers go bust.


yeh it's really shite. what they're saying now if we're going to fuck you all with inflation if the leccy and gas bills don't get you first.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 4, 2022)

CH1 said:


> What's the point of calling it a cap then?
> A cap would be a government limit above which they cannot go - determined by the government.
> All OFGEM do is follow the market - and distribute the wreckage when their authorised retail sellers go bust.



It's always been a temporary cap (though now more temporary than before) designed in part to guarantee a rate energy firms can bill at which is higher than the wholesale price.

Obviously though that royally fucked over all the firms depending the wholesale cost being lower than the cap to survive.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2022)

skyscraper101 said:


> It's always been a temporary cap (though now more temporary than before) designed in part to guarantee a rate energy firms can bill at which is higher than the wholesale price.
> 
> Obviously though that royally fucked over all the firms depending the wholesale cost being lower than the cap to survive.


it makes you question why there should be an intermediary sector between the energy producer and the energy purchaser.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it makes you question why there should be an intermediary sector between the energy producer and the energy purchaser.


Well it worked fine before when there wasn't both as a private monopoly and a public monopoly before that. Our Lords & Masters were however obsessed with bringing us the 'benefits' of competition. Since however no utility company was deranged enough to consider spending billions to lay new pipes and cables all over the place we ended up with the current smoke and mirrors version.
It's telling that preventing these distribution companies from going bust is actually considered as a benefit to this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Well it worked fine before when there wasn't both as a private monopoly and a public monopoly before that. Our Lords & Masters were however obsessed with bringing us the 'benefits' of competition. Since however no utility company was deranged enough to consider spending billions to lay new pipes and cables all over the place we ended up with the current smoke and mirrors version.
> It's telling that preventing these distribution companies from going bust is actually considered as a benefit to this.


We pay the ones who aren't bust and we pay for the ones who are


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it makes you question why there should be an intermediary sector between the energy producer and the energy purchaser.


 
Not sure how you think energy ought to be distributed and supplied.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Not sure how you think energy ought to be distributed and supplied.


that's ok


----------



## NoXion (Aug 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Not sure how you think energy ought to be distributed and supplied.



Because there is no alternative to ordinary households being financially ruined by escalating bills while corporations reap ever-increasing profits?


----------



## CH1 (Aug 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Not sure how you think energy ought to be distributed and supplied.


How old are you?
For your information look at this Bank of England Report 1950.
Page 8 lists the gilt-edged government securities in issue relating to various electricity boards - and the newly established British Gas - bought out of various town gas works.


			https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/annual-report/1950/boe-1950.pdf
		


All this continued to work just fine until Thatcher fucked it up.
I can remember in 1987 or so my cooker thermostat broke. I went into the gas showroom opposite Brixton Police Station - under the then Fridge nightclub. The show room organised a gas fitter to come and replace the thermostat. They then posted me a bill (for about £15) which I paid in the bank I think.

Nationalised industries were really so IN-efficient. You actually had the "Right to Repair" as of right then.
They didn't just talk about having a right to repair LAW to bamboozle the Green Party.

I don't agree with Corbyn too  much - but he was right to say nationalising power is preferable to going to hell in a market-led handcart.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 4, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Because there is no alternative to ordinary households being financially ruined by escalating bills while corporations reap ever-increasing profits?



Even if it’s all state owned, there would still be a distribution sector. Pretty sure the Central Electricity Generating Board didn’t exclusively operate in the generation sector


----------



## NoXion (Aug 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Even if it’s all state owned, there would still be a distribution sector. Pretty sure the Central Electricity Generating Board didn’t exclusively operate in the generation sector



It's the organisation of that distribution which is the issue. Why the fuck should such important work be divided up among a whole bunch of profit-turning middlemen? That's an objectively shit way of doing things, unless of course you're one of the parasites that makes bank under such an arrangement.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 4, 2022)

CH1 said:


> How old are you?
> For your information look at this Bank of England Report 1950.
> Page 8 lists the gilt-edged government securities in issue relating to various electricity boards - and the newly established British Gas - bought out of various town gas works.
> 
> ...



I remember having our telephone line cancelled because my father’s income support wasn’t enough to pay for the obligatory perpetual rental of our shitty handset from the post office. They let us keep the handset anyway despite not keeping up payments for it, but it was illegal to plug it in without paying rent for it.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 4, 2022)

Of course Post Office Telephones and the old state-owned power companies had schemes to provide affordable phones and power to pensioners and those on benefits. Oh wait no they didn’t.


----------



## NoXion (Aug 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I remember having our telephone line cancelled because my father’s income support wasn’t enough to pay for the obligatory perpetual rental of our shitty handset from the post office. They let us keep the handset anyway despite not keeping up payments for it, but it was illegal to plug it in without paying rent for it.



And this particular detail you've chosen to focus on is meaningfully different to how things are done now because... ? If I don't keep up my payments on my mobile bill, they will terminate my service. When that last happened to me, I got to keep the handset too.



platinumsage said:


> Of course Post Office Telephones and the old state-owned power companies had schemes to provide affordable phones and power to pensioners and those on benefits. Oh wait no they didn’t.



I've never had help for my phone and power bills from any of the gaggle of private companies currently running the show, either. The point is, as long as private companies are involved, they have an inherent tendency to take the piss out of their customers because of the whole "making a profit" bullshit.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 4, 2022)

NoXion said:


> And this particular detail you've chosen to focus on is meaningfully different to how things are done now because... ? If I don't keep up my payments on my mobile bill, they will terminate my service. When that last happened to me, I got to keep the handset too.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never had help for my phone and power bills from any of the gaggle of private companies currently running the show, either. The point is, as long as private companies are involved, they have an inherent tendency to take the piss out of their customers because of the whole "making a profit" bullshit.



I'm not in favour of private companies doing everything, my point is that it's government intervention that makes the difference, whether in setting price levels or mandating help for those most in need. The difference between state and private ownership is pretty marginal to the consumer - it's how the government operates a nationalized company, or how it regulates the privates companies that actually makes the difference.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Of course Post Office Telephones and the old state-owned power companies had schemes to provide affordable phones and power to pensioners and those on benefits. Oh wait no they didn’t.


I had a party line with a British Airway air hostess who lived next door (in Effra Court, bottom of Brixton Hill). Very inconvenient. Took Thatcher several years to sort that out for me (and the hostess).


----------



## NoXion (Aug 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I'm not in favour of private companies doing everything, my point is that it's government intervention that makes the difference, whether in setting price levels or mandating help for those most in need. The difference between state and private ownership is pretty marginal to the consumer - it's how the government operates a nationalized company, or how it regulates the privates companies that actually makes the difference.



When you're dealing with something as important as the nation's energy supply, control is important. You need to be able to issue orders, rather than just polite requests which one vainly hopes rapacious capitalists will do out of the kindness of their shrivelled hearts. It's the same general idea why the armed forces are always run by the state and not say, divided up among a whole bunch of various tightly-regulated mercenary groups.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 4, 2022)

NoXion said:


> When you're dealing with something as important as the nation's energy supply, control is important. You need to be able to issue orders, rather than just polite requests which one vainly hopes rapacious capitalists will do out of the kindness of their shrivelled hearts. It's the same general idea why the armed forces are always run by the state and not say, divided up among a whole bunch of various tightly-regulated mercenary groups.



Pretty sure the price cap is an order, sure it's from the Tories so it's not a very good one, but it's an order. Now imagine a state-owned power company under these Tories - you think that would lead to cheaper power for anyone?

Now imagine a state-owned power company under a decent Labour government, and compare that with a price-cap mechanism on private companies under that same government. Under which scenario would that government have the most political capital to reduce prices the furthest?

It's really all about the government and their power rather than the ownership type.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> a decent Labour government


 like military intelligence, a contradiction in terms


----------



## NoXion (Aug 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Pretty sure the price cap is an order, sure it's from the Tories so it's not a very good one, but it's an order. Now imagine a state-owned power company under these Tories - you think that would lead to cheaper power for anyone?
> 
> Now imagine a state-owned power company under a decent Labour government, and compare that with a price-cap mechanism on private companies under that same government. Under which scenario would that government have the most political capital to reduce prices the furthest?
> 
> It's really all about the government and their power rather than the ownership type.



The organisational dynamics involved in the profit motive vs the service motive still matter. That's why despite successive Tory governments, the NHS is still largely free at the point of use, and why Yanks still get chucked into massive debt despite the Affordable Care Act.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 4, 2022)

NoXion said:


> The organisational dynamics involved in the profit motive vs the service motive still matter. That's why despite successive Tory governments, the NHS is still largely free at the point of use, and why Yanks still get chucked into massive debt despite the Affordable Care Act.



There are other dynamics between types of supplier and types of government.

The NHS is pretty unique afaik, not sure why it gets compared to the US so much, instead of say Germany, Israel or South Korea.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 4, 2022)

Because that's the model that's most likely going to replace the NHS?


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 4, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Because that's the model that's most likely going to replace the NHS?



It suggest it’s the furthest away from the NHS model, if you were to put all the developed world health systems on a spectrum of degrees of bad privatisation. As such, I’d suggest it’s actually the hardest to transition to, and thus the least likely.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 4, 2022)

But the highest profit for insurers and pharmaceutical companies and hospital trust and politicians who are shareholders, and thus the most likely.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 4, 2022)

two sheds said:


> But the highest profit for insurers and pharmaceutical companies and hospital trust and politicians who are shareholders, and thus the most likely.



If it was that simple, most countries would have the US model already.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 4, 2022)

I didn't say it was that simple, but it's a huge incentive for the tories to introduce it.


----------



## rubbershoes (Aug 4, 2022)

CH1 said:


> What's the point of calling it a cap then?
> A cap would be a government limit above which they cannot go - determined by the government.
> All OFGEM do is follow the market - and distribute the wreckage when their authorised retail sellers go bust.



And their justification for raising the cap is that otherwise energy suppliers would go bust and some costs would fall on consumers. I'm not sure what costs these are and how they fall on consumers but the head Ofgen bloke was waving the figure of £2.8 billion around 

In other news, BPs profits have increased by about £2 billion in the last quarter


----------



## CH1 (Aug 8, 2022)

Paul Lewis was wittering on about tweaking your Combi boiler to save money on gas




__





						Lower the flow temperature on your boiler to save 12%
					

A recent report found that turning down the flow temperature on your gas boiler can save 12% on your gas bills. We show you how.




					www.theheatinghub.co.uk
				




Also he mentioned that gas kettles were much cheaper to run than electric ones.
I recall it was a fad several years back to have a "whistling" kettle.
Anyone seen any of those for sale in the Brixton area?
This "travelling kettle" is on offer from Amazon for £9.98
I prefer local shops, but I fear if stocked Morleys might charge £29.98 for the same thing!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 8, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Paul Lewis was wittering on about tweaking your Combi boiler to save money on gas
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's interesting, and bookmarked, I'll mention that to the guys installing my new boiler in 3 weeks, and see what they have to say about it.


----------



## dessiato (Aug 8, 2022)

This morning I've been reading about the massive profits being made by some suppliers. It thoroughly disgusts me that we, the people, are being increasingly driven towards fuel poverty to inflate the incomes, and wealth of those at the "top." 

I found myself thinking, "well that's the world we live in." And this is how they get us. We're so driven down that we are just accepting these inequalities. And there's the rub. We're so brow beaten we just keep taking it and accepting our increasing poverty.

I wish I knew the solution to this.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 8, 2022)

Re kettles this is the type I had in mind - retro copper bottomed with fins for extra heat absorption.
A half-price snip at $35. A bit extreme having to import it though!


----------



## Storm Fox (Aug 8, 2022)

The problem with the electric 'suppilers' is that they don't supply anything, they just read take the meter readings and bill and I assume 'buy' electricity for a price at a point in the future. For me SSE delivers the power and maintains the infrastructure up to IIRC 33kV than its National Grid above that voltage. OVO or Npower or whoever just billing companies. This creates a whole other level of profit taking and an unnecessary level of infrastructure around allowing people to move from one intermediatory to another. 

So even in their main core function is billing they are pretty shit as experienced by cupid_stunt


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## MickiQ (Aug 8, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's interesting, and bookmarked, I'll mention that to the guys installing my new boiler in 3 weeks, and see what they have to say about it.


I confess my utter amazement that this is not common  knowledge it was pretty much the first thing the British Gas fitter told me about.
Attached is a picture of (part of)  my Worcester Bosch, the boiler flow temperature is controlled by the dial under the display and is  set to e (for eco) which means the boiler runs at 58C which is supposedly optimal for economy.
If you try and turn it past the e mark the dial will actually click to let you know that you have gone past optimal economy.
It works fine at that temp unless it is REALLY cold (sub zero) in which case turning it up to about 70C for a couple of hours to get  the house warm before turning it back down to e does the trick.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 8, 2022)

Was thinking about the idea mentioned on urban about opening doors briefly on winter mornings to get some air flow. If I open my bedroom door upstairs and spare room door downstairs I'll get flow through pretty well all the doors but was wondering whether I should have the fan blowing air out of the upstairs or downstairs door. I presume because warm air rises better from upstairs.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> The problem with the electric 'suppilers' is that they don't supply anything, they just read take the meter readings and bill and I assume 'buy' electricity for a price at a point in the future. For me SSE delivers the power and maintains the infrastructure up to IIRC 33kV than its National Grid above that voltage. OVO or Npower or whoever just billing companies. This creates a whole other level of profit taking and an unnecessary level of infrastructure around allowing people to move from one intermediatory to another.



This is the latest fudge, after the previous fudge was revealed to be a scam. When the 'big six' had the market sewn up between them, the idea was they both generated electricity and sold it to punters. Except these 'energy companies' were already split into retail companies and generating companies. The former bought their power from the latter, at an artificially inflated and rigged price, to avoid taxable profits and calls to reduce prices for consumers.

The new improved version we have now is basically the same but now there are retail companies with no generating capacity at all. This means that investment in generation has to come from the state instead. So here we are sat on a goldmine of renewable energy resources and yet still beholden to Putin and the Saudis and every other cunt.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 8, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> The new improved version we have now is basically the same but now there are retail companies with no generating capacity at all. This means that investment in generation has to come from the state instead. So here we are sat on a goldmine of renewable energy resources and yet still beholden to Putin and the Saudis and every other cunt.


Didn't I just read somewhere that the Tories were opposed to an "interconnect" and buying electricity from Norway?
Maybe because it doesn't come from "nice clean coal"?

Anyway it's a bit academic right now - Norway are not selling electricity to other countries due to drought worries and the Ukraine situation.








						UK braces for even higher bills as Norway threatens electricity export cut
					

Water levels in southern Norway so low domestic consumers may be prioritised over international customers




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## story (Aug 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Was thinking about the idea mentioned on urban about opening doors briefly on winter mornings to get some air flow. If I open my bedroom door upstairs and spare room door downstairs I'll get flow through pretty well all the doors but was wondering whether I should have the fan blowing air out of the upstairs or downstairs door. I presume because warm air rises better from upstairs.



Why are we encouraged to do this?
And would it work in a flat?

(Please don’t tell me to go back and read the whole thread. Or if you do, please give some indication or hint about where I might find the information. )


----------



## two sheds (Aug 8, 2022)

My place is old and susceptible to damp so some kind poster suggested opening a couple of doors/windows for 10/15? minutes on winter mornings to clear the air through.

Another couple of videos were suggesting that it's better to put a fan 2ft back from a window to increase the air flow, but not to bother with a fan unless it's a morning with no wind. Would work in a flat too if it gets a bit musty from the damp.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 8, 2022)

I knew someone who worked for the council in Plymouth who swore blind that in properties with damp opening the windows for 20 minutes, when it wasn't raining or too windy, helped blow away the damp air. Then shut the windows. The drier air will heat up relatively quickly. The heat of the fabric of the house, walls, carpets, furniture etc won't have been affected at all. Never had to try this out, but sounds plausible.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 8, 2022)

And before doing that I'll be treating the mould on a couple of affected walls with that superb foam type stuff as soon as it arrives  I'm quite impressed that it's only two/three downstairs walls that need it.


----------



## story (Aug 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> My place is old and susceptible to damp so some kind poster suggested opening a couple of doors/windows for 10/15? minutes on winter mornings to clear the air through.
> 
> Another couple of videos were suggesting that it's better to put a fan 2ft back from a window to increase the air flow, but not to bother with a fan unless it's a morning with no wind. Would work in a flat too if it gets a bit musty from the damp.



Ah okay. It’s for the damp. I thought it was some kind of weird esoteric trick to stop the place losing heat during the day.
My place isn’t damp (thank god) except for right now cos the upstairs neighbours have had a leak in the bathroom.

Thank you for explaining two sheds .


----------



## story (Aug 8, 2022)

Mind you, the reason it’s not damp is probably due to the fact that it leaks air like a sieve.

I’m intending to get it draught proofed before the winter but the bloke who was going to help me is in a band that’s suddenly getting loads of bookings.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I knew someone who worked for the council in Plymouth who swore blind that in properties with damp opening the windows for 20 minutes, when it wasn't raining or too windy, helped blow away the damp air. Then shut the windows. The drier air will heat up relatively quickly. The heat of the fabric of the house, walls, carpets, furniture etc won't have been affected at all. Never had to try this out, but sounds plausible.



You absolutely need some ventilation all year round. A lot of homes in this country are poorly designed from this perspective, with opening windows the only option and a lack of trickle vents etc. Example; the window in our bedroom has a trickle vent built in but the interior opening of it is flush with the window frame, so that no air can get through


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 8, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> You absolutely need some ventilation all year round. A lot of homes in this country are poorly designed from this perspective, with opening windows the only option and a lack of trickle vents etc. Example; the window in our bedroom has a trickle vent built in but the interior opening of it is flush with the window frame, so that no air can get through


Drier air is also warmer. That's why so many people buy dehumidifiers.


----------



## story (Aug 8, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> You absolutely need some ventilation all year round. A lot of homes in this country are poorly designed from this perspective, with opening windows the only option and a lack of trickle vents etc. Example; the window in our bedroom has a trickle vent built in but the interior opening of it is flush with the window frame, so that no air can get through



Setting aside the issue about leaking carbon and heat all winter and so forth, I’ve always liked living in leaky places. Whenever I’ve spent long time in hermetI ally sealed places I feel really crushed and claustrophobic. 

I do need to get it sorted out though. Right now, I can see daylight through the gaps in the floorboards near where the air bricks are.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 8, 2022)

Just see them as trickle vents  

I've been cutting out draughts in my place but I can't see that causing problems, there have to be gaps some places in an old house.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 9, 2022)

Think of a number and double it









						Energy bills forecast to hit over £4,200 a year
					

The average household could pay £355 a month, up from £164 currently, consultancy Cornwall Insight warns.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Cerv (Aug 9, 2022)

why do the press always quote annual figures?

most people pay monthly. surely that'd be more readily understandable?
the cap is going up every 3 months, so that annual limit is kind of meaningless. it's not an annual figure anyone is ever held to for real.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 9, 2022)

It does get mentioned in the report, the average figure at the moment is £164 pm but would be £355pm in Jan (bit more than double) so some very wet figure estimates for most people would be to just double what you're paying now.
£355pm is roughly what you'd pay on an £85K mortgage at current interest rates


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 9, 2022)

I know a magic trick, to make your money disappear


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 9, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I know a magic trick, to make your money disappear


So does every fucker else mate that's the problem. The banks, utility companies and the supermarkets know all these tricks.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 9, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> So does every fucker else mate that's the problem. The banks, utility companies and the supermarkets know all these tricks.


every week doing my local food shop the prices on something have increased. At this point almost everything I buy has gone up. Today, a pack of chicken went up 45p to just under £3

There is no end in sight.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 9, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Think of a number and double it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think people need to go back to school and study Maths. (Highly unlikely I guess)
What I had in mind was Diffentiation and Integration ("The Calculus")
Seems whenever a spot price of gas changes both Ovo Energy and the commentators multiply a sub-zero winter day by 365. They are not taking into account the seasonal variation, indeed they do not seem to have a model of household consumption at all --- or at least I hope that's it!


----------



## Chz (Aug 9, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I knew someone who worked for the council in Plymouth who swore blind that in properties with damp opening the windows for 20 minutes, when it wasn't raining or too windy, helped blow away the damp air. Then shut the windows. The drier air will heat up relatively quickly. The heat of the fabric of the house, walls, carpets, furniture etc won't have been affected at all. Never had to try this out, but sounds plausible.


In general yes, but I'm not sure how much difference it makes in those winter weeks where the outside air never drops below 80% humidity. I said "fuck it" and bought a dehumidifier. It's nothing short of miraculous, but it ain't cheap to run - even though it's one of the most energy efficient models.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 9, 2022)

Mine's 300W desiccant wheel. Is really good, particularly in winter blows out slightly warm air to take the edge off if not too cold.


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 10, 2022)

It's no fucking wonder that bulb are in "financial difficulties" - I've finally switched to a variable direct debit - my last statement, dated 22d July (<£68) still hasn't been taken from my account and it's the 10th of fucking August . . . it's called, cashflow I believe and they really don't have a handle on it


----------



## two sheds (Aug 10, 2022)

fucking hell that must be some bill


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> fucking hell that must be some bill


Nope, as above, less than £68


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## MickiQ (Aug 11, 2022)

British Gas have gone completely fucking doo-lally 
Back in October they insisted on me putting up my gas payment from £68 to £95 per month and my electric payment from £95 to £115 per month so I wouldn't owe them any money at the 'end of my plan'
Checking idly last night to see what my balance might be I see the following messages

You are currently paying £94.63 per month. We need to reduce this so we don't owe you any money at the end of your plan. We recommend you should pay £22.45 to stay on track.(gas)
You are currently paying £115.01 per month. We need to reduce this so we don't owe you any money at the end of your plan. We recommend you should pay £42.09 to stay on track.(electric)

I think this is probably because my credit balance gets added to my account monthly and my debit balance only gets added when they send me a statement. I have a suspicion that if I do lower it then come the next statement they will be demanding my first born as payment.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 11, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I have a suspicion that if I do lower it then come the next statement they will be demanding my first born as payment.



Make them a offer, first born to cover everything up to next summer, bargain.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 11, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Make them a offer, first born to cover everything up to next summer, bargain.


Alas I no longer have her, she has long since abandoned her father's hearth and proud family name for that of another man. I could offer them my fourth born whom I have not yet got rid of but it's a coin toss between them forcing me to take her back or her becoming the CEO of BG and wreaking revenge.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2022)

The Twittersphere speaks of a Peasants Revolt. Even the Lib Dems are joining in. Labour without Corbyn is lost!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 11, 2022)

CH1 said:


> The Twittersphere speaks of a Peasants Revolt. Even the Lib Dems are joining in. Labour without Corbyn is lost!




The Queen is going to shank Mick Lynch?


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 11, 2022)

CH1 said:


> The Twittersphere speaks of a Peasants Revolt. Even the Lib Dems are joining in. Labour without Corbyn is lost!


The peasants have always been revolting but now they're rebelling as well.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> The Queen is going to shank Mick Lynch?


You mean thank Mick Lynch?
Seriously Richard II and Elizabeth II are not comparable.
Richard II was a naïve monarch from the era when kings were demi-gods and their peasants in awe.
I don't see Elizabeth R getting involved in paying or not paying the gas bill - and the punishment thereof.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 12, 2022)

Jesus H fucking Christ.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 13, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Jesus H fucking Christ.




You could probably buy every single piece of electricity generating infrastructure in the U.K. for less than 193 bn gbp.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 13, 2022)

alex_ said:


> You could probably buy every single piece of electricity generating infrastructure in the U.K. for less than 193 bn gbp.



A fat lot of good it would do you if you can’t then afford any gas.


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 13, 2022)

FINALLY - I've got Bulb taking for what I've used and only for what I've used


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 13, 2022)

Yes, I know we're not "building up a buffer" for the heavier winter usage - but the money is staying with me and not with bulb

Once the bulb debacle is sorted out I intend to switch back to a normal DD rather than my current Variable DD


----------



## alex_ (Aug 13, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> A fat lot of good it would do you if you can’t then afford any gas.



Remember this is home energy costs not all energy costs.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 13, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Yes, I know we're not "building up a buffer" for the heavier winter usage - but the money is staying with me and not with bulb
> 
> Once the bulb debacle is sorted out I intend to switch back to a normal DD rather than my current Variable DD



I had forgotten that Bulb is in a pickle, found this update from 6 days ago.



> The taxpayer bailout of the failed energy supplier Bulb is on course to cost more than if the company had been immediately broken up by Ofgem, analysis by The Telegraph shows.
> 
> Bulb collapsed in November after failing to buy energy far enough in advance, leaving it exposed to rocketing wholesale prices.
> 
> ...







> Meanwhile, it has been reported that the Government *could sell Bulb to Octopus Energy, the only bidder*, reportedly for as little as £100m - putting the public purse on course for overall costs of more than £2bn.
> 
> This is more than Ofgem predicted it would cost consumers through their energy bills if the company had instead been allowed to fail through the so-called supplier of last resort mechanism (SOLR), analysis by the Telegraph shows.
> 
> In papers submitted for Bulb’s administration, Ofgem said following the SOLR process, where Bulb’s customers would have been transferred to other energy companies, would have cost £1.28bn in total.



Paywall busted link - archive.ph


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 13, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> A fat lot of good it would do you if you can’t then afford any gas.


But if you owned all the electricity generation you could just go all electric and not bother with gas.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 13, 2022)

Due to a fuck up by our electricity supplier (Eon) we over paid over the last year or so by around £800 (we submit a reading once a month) so we are ahead on that. We aren't on a fixed term deal , never bothered tbh. 

Gas we pay 3 monthly , so that will hit us when winter hits. 

Have never paid by DD , don't like DDs really, try to avoid them.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 14, 2022)

Keith seems to have woken up somewhat the the issue:









						Labour demands energy price cap freeze amid rising cost of living
					

Chancellor Nadhim Zahawi is reportedly drawing up plans to reduce energy price cap by £400




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 14, 2022)

Minor Twitter controversy about who is behind The Don’t Pay Campaign .


----------



## alex_ (Aug 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Minor Twitter controversy about who is behind The Don’t Pay Campaign .



Why ?


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 14, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Why ?



Perhaps this?











						Don't Pay UK is organised by middle-class Corbynista rabble
					

Don't Pay UK, the campaign calling for mass non-payment of fuel bills, has maintained anonymity up until now. Alessio Lunghi and Matthew Chessum are revealed to be among the organisers.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## NoXion (Aug 14, 2022)

Why is this a controversy?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 14, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Why is this a controversy?


That’s only one strand amongst many . It’s Twitter so the worlds not going to end


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 14, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Why is this a controversy?



according to the daily fail, middle class people doing anything remotely left wing is terrible and they ought to know better.  working class people doing anything remotely left wing is also terrible and they ought to know their place...


----------



## alex_ (Aug 14, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> according to the daily fail, middle class people doing anything remotely left wing is terrible and they ought to know better.  working class people doing anything remotely left wing is also terrible and they ought to know their place...



They are organised but they are a rabble….


----------



## existentialist (Aug 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Minor Twitter controversy about who is behind The Don’t Pay Campaign .


🤷‍♂️


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 14, 2022)

Haven't a clue who these weirdos are or how they ended up in my timeline but here you go:


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 14, 2022)

storm in a twee cup?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 15, 2022)

Front page of The Times today, quoting a yougov poll.



That's going to add pressure on the new PM to do more than they probably would like to do, not sure if it will result in a complete U-turn, but nothing is impossible.



> Both the Tory leadership contenders — Truss, the foreign secretary, and the former chancellor Rishi Sunak — have rejected freezing bills completely.





> YouGov polling for _The Times_ suggests a public appetite for more radical measures, with only one in eight people saying that they can afford rising energy bills without reducing their standard of living.
> Seventy-five per cent support fixing the cap on energy bills even if it means more government borrowing, with 8 per cent opposing. This includes 75 per cent of those who voted Tory in 2019, with 12 per cent opposed. Big majorities in all parts of the country and all age groups back the plan, with little difference between Leavers and Remainers.



Full article - archive.ph


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 15, 2022)

I'm not surprised, because Labour's plan is funded by scrapping current measures to help the poorest. It will help the better-off far more than the Tory's current or mooted future plans:


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 15, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> *I'm not surprised, because Labour's plan is funded by scrapping current measures to help the poorest. *It will help the better-off far more than the Tory's current or mooted future plans:



According to all the reports I've heard & read, that's not the case, only the universal £400 off everyone's bills will be included in their grand plan.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 15, 2022)

There were stories over the weekend that Loopy Lizzie was considering scrapping the £400 bung for those that don't really need it.
Which means me to be honest however there is a difference between stopping my bung to give it to those who need it more which might peeve me a bit but I could understand and even agree with and stopping my bung just to keep the Treasury's bill down


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 15, 2022)

Means testing is notoriously expensive and it’s almost always cheaper to just make it a universal payout

It isn’t ideal in that for the rich it’s money they don’t need or deserve but to slice the data by household would mean referring to huge blocks of data


----------



## teuchter (Aug 15, 2022)

This guy has the solution.


----------



## seeformiles (Aug 15, 2022)

I’ve seen this round Robin thing but wonder how much truth there is in it:
Instead of refusing to pay your energy bill in October, you can make a stand and hurt your energy supplier without getting into debt or damaging your credit rating:

1. Cancel your Direct Debit and either set up a standing order for what you can afford, or simply pay for what you use each month.
2. Write a letter of complaint about the bill to your energy supplier. Once that complaint has been raised, your energy supplier can't take any debt collection action on your account, so they can't pass your details to the credit reference agencies, etc. That bill gets put on hold while they try to resolve your complaint. The energy company might offer you a small reduction - don't accept it. Keep the complaint open & keep your nerve.
3. Eventually, they will send you a letter of 'Deadlock', saying they've gone as far as they can with your complaint & can't go any further, so your only option now is to take it up with the energy Ombudsman.
For every complaint the Ombudsman has to investigate, they charge your energy supplier £500.
4. The energy companies have limitations on how many complaints they're allowed to have open, and there's a limit also on turnaround time - how quickly they must respond to a complaint & get it closed. If they don't respond quickly enough, don't resolve a complaint, or if they have too many complaints open, the energy firm will be fined by the Ombudsman.
This will also put them in breach of their licensing conditions and put their ability to trade at risk.
So if you want to fight these extortionate price hikes
1. Raise complaints
2. Do NOT close them
3. Take them to the Ombudsman

Should you want to cause them even more grief, you can submit a “subject access request” at the same time as the above. The energy company has a legal obligation to provide you with every piece of information they have on you, including telephone conversation transcripts, past bills, everything. This is time-consuming and is a huge hassle for them, however they are legally bound to comply within one month.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 15, 2022)

It used to be that £50.00 would last 5 weeks. 

The last £50.00 I put on the meter lasted just 2 weeks. 
And there was nothing special electrically in that period.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 16, 2022)

seeformiles said:


> I’ve seen this round Robin thing but wonder how much truth there is in it:
> Instead of refusing to pay your energy bill in October, you can make a stand and hurt your energy supplier without getting into debt or damaging your credit rating:
> 
> 1. Cancel your Direct Debit and either set up a standing order for what you can afford, or simply pay for what you use each month.
> ...


I'd seen it elsewhere but apparently a scam 









						Is this for real?
					

I saw this on Facebook. Is it real or made-up? I can't see the point of it if it is a scam but just wondered?




					forums.moneysavingexpert.com


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 16, 2022)

seeformiles said:


> I’ve seen this round Robin thing but wonder how much truth there is in it:
> Instead of refusing to pay your energy bill in October, you can make a stand and hurt your energy supplier without getting into debt or damaging your credit rating:
> 
> 1. Cancel your Direct Debit and either set up a standing order for what you can afford, or simply pay for what you use each month.
> ...



My concern with that, is it would crash the ombudsman system, and having used it myself for a genuine complaint, I can say they are already under a lot of pressure, it took almost 8 weeks before a case handler was assigned, so I wouldn't want to see them unable to deal with other genuine complaints.

That reminds me, OVO has until the end of next Tuesday to have completely resolved my complaint. <taps watch>


----------



## teqniq (Aug 18, 2022)

Somebody with principles? Maybe.









						Ofgem board director Christine Farnish quits over energy price cap
					

Non-executive board member says regulator ‘gave too much benefit to companies at expense of customers’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## NoXion (Aug 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> This guy has the solution.




Shawn is a cunt with shit ideas.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 18, 2022)

Wasn't exactly sure where to post this but it is related . . .


Pigs at the trough - These greedy, venal cunts, telling us we're not working hard enough, that we're asking for too much, and that we should respect politicians


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 18, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Wasn't exactly sure where to post this but it is related . . .
> 
> View attachment 338258
> Pigs at the trough - These greedy, venal cunts, telling us we're not working hard enough, that we're asking for too much, and that we should respect politicians



Doesn't surprise me, if they live outside London, they can claim expenses on a second home, which clearly would include energy bills.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Doesn't surprise me, if they live outside London, they can claim expenses on a second home, which clearly would include energy bills.


including heating the horses in their riding school stables apparently.
Chancellor Zahawi took care of his horses, meanwhile Truss looks alarmingly like Joan of Arc in visionary bliss - except that she has the political sense of Marie Antoinette ("Let them eat cake"). The guillotine surely awaits in the end!


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 19, 2022)

Just had an email from British Gas about how they are going to pay The Energy Bills Support Scheme (aka Rishi Rich's electoral bribe). It seems that starting from October for 6 months they will pay £67 into my bank account a few days after they have taken my DD (22nd in my case).
Whilst I'm one of those who doesn't really need it to manage, extra money is of course always welcome. This by coincidence is almost exactly the same amount I donate each month to the local foodbank. The Govt is giving me back the money I spend doing their job because they aren't doing it. I am most likely the only person involved in this who realises the incredible irony of it.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 19, 2022)

£10 a week to £25 a week is a 2.5 times increase. Hopefully it won't go up any more. But I have no price per unit to compare to, I have no idea how many units my pounds are buying, and no idea how many units I am using, though by keeping an eye on the meter I can see how many pounds I am using. 

We hardly use electricity, a few lights, a computer, charge a couple of phones, one electric cooker which I use on and off and a microwave which also isn't used that often.   

I am a bit fed up with it, it is completely opaque, I have no idea what is coming next.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 19, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Just had an email from British Gas about how they are going to pay The Energy Bills Support Scheme (aka Rishi Rich's electoral bribe). It seems that starting from October for 6 months they will pay £67 into my bank account a few days after they have taken my DD (22nd in my case).
> Whilst I'm one of those who doesn't really need it to manage, extra money is of course always welcome. This by coincidence is almost exactly the same amount I donate each month to the local foodbank. The Govt is giving me back the money I spend doing their job because they aren't doing it. I am most likely the only person involved in this who realises the incredible irony of it.


They pay a few days after they take your dd? So anyone who's only just in credit is going to be hit with bank charges?


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 19, 2022)

two sheds said:


> They pay a few days after they take your dd? So anyone who's only just in credit is going to be hit with bank charges?


I would imagine so yes, also £67 is a maximum not a set figure, if I understand it correctly if your DD is less than £67 then you only get back the amount you pay not the full £67.
Only just got back from the pub with Middle Q's soon to be in-laws and Paddy's Dad is downstairs cracking open the bottle of whiskey he brought with him so don't want to keep him waiting.
Will be busy tomorrow with the whole daughter's wedding thing but on Sunday I will edit out any identifiable info and upload the email so you can read it yourself


----------



## Cerv (Aug 20, 2022)

Email from Octopus this morning. That 4th bullet point - odd thing to boast about. Hardly inspires confidence that they're sticking around and not going to go the way of Bulb & all the other bankrupts.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 20, 2022)

Well they made a 91 million gross profit and a 24 million net profit last year, so that's not strictly true, although they'll probably claim they're setting that against a previous year's loss, and that the shareholders haven't gotten back their investment yet.


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## alex_ (Aug 20, 2022)

Cerv said:


> Email from Octopus this morning. That 4th bullet point - odd thing to boast about. Hardly inspires confidence that they're sticking around and not going to go the way of Bulb & all the other bankrupts.
> View attachment 338770



If they are fully hedged they will be fine - they are right it’s generators - in particular any with fixed input costs not related to gas or oil prices who are making out like bandits in this crisis.

That’s nuclear and renewable generators in particular.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 20, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> *Wasn't exactly sure where to post this but it is related . . .*


Everywhere


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 20, 2022)

British Gas are finally shifting me onto monthly direct debit  if they think they're using me as a piggybank they can fuck off


----------



## not a trot (Aug 20, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I would imagine so yes, also £67 is a maximum not a set figure, if I understand it correctly if your DD is less than £67 then you only get back the amount you pay not the full £67.
> Only just got back from the pub with Middle Q's soon to be in-laws and Paddy's Dad is downstairs cracking open the bottle of whiskey he brought with him so don't want to keep him waiting.
> Will be busy tomorrow with the whole daughter's wedding thing but on Sunday I will edit out any identifiable info and upload the email so you can read it yourself



I received the same email.​Hello xxxxxxxx​*We know times are really hard at the moment, with rises in living costs putting pressure on your budget. And some of our customers may find it difficult managing their energy bills.*
As you may have seen in the news, your energy prices are likely to rise in line with the new price cap, which we are expecting to be formally announced at the end of this month.
We understand this is difficult news. Once Ofgem release more information we’ll be in touch to let you know exactly what this means for you.
We’re contacting you to let you know that, regardless of your circumstances, more support is on the way. The government has recently announced the new Energy Bills Support Scheme (EBSS), which will give households a £400 discount off their energy bills from October. You can find out more about the scheme and how it will work on our website.​
 Find out more ​
The Energy Bills Support Scheme (EBSS)​The EBSS is part of the government’s wider support to help households with the cost of living. It’s open to all domestic households who use electricity.​How much will I get?​Every household will get £400, paid over six months starting from October 2022. So you’ll get the following each month:​
*Month*​*Amount*​*October 2022*​£66​*November 2022*​£66​*December 2022*​£67​*January 2023*​£67​*February 2023*​£67​*March 2023*​£67​
If your electricity bills are less than £66/£67 a month, you’ll still get the same amount. You can carry on using the discount to pay for your electricity after March 2023 (until all the £400 is used up).​How do I apply?​You don’t need to do anything – every household will automatically get the discount. You don’t need to repay the discount and it won’t affect your credit rating in any way.​How do I receive the discount?​For Direct Debit customers, we’ll send the discount straight to your bank each month – like a refund – once your Direct Debit has gone through.
_For example:_
If your Direct Debit is £100 a month, you’d pay that as normal. Then a few days later, £67 will be paid in to your bank account. If your Direct Debit is less than £67 a month, say £50 for example, £50 will be refunded to your bank account and the remaining £17 will be applied as credit to your energy account.​
​
Beware of scams​The discount will be applied automatically – you won’t be asked for your bank details at any time. Please beware of potential scams and report any unusual activity to report@phishing.gov.uk. You can find other examples of recent scams on our website.

Find out more​For further information about the government discount, see our website.​Need more help with your energy bills?​​
If you're struggling with your energy bills, we can help.
The British Gas Energy Trust can also provide you with energy debt advice, grants and further support.
Thanks,
The British Gas Energy Team​​


----------



## CH1 (Aug 20, 2022)

alex_ said:


> If they are fully hedged they will be fine - they are right it’s generators - in particular any with fixed input costs not related to gas or oil prices who are making out like bandits in this crisis.
> 
> That’s nuclear and renewable generators in particular.


If they are fully hedged they shouldn't be putting their prices up at all.
This is like Roulette where the gamblers are charging the cleaners for their losses.


----------



## JoeyBoy (Aug 20, 2022)

What will happen with those taking part in this Don't Pay campaign will they just get their £67 knocked off what they owe? And what about people on pre-payment meters? I haven't heard fuck all what I'm getting.


----------



## 20Bees (Aug 21, 2022)

JoeyBoy said:


> What will happen with those taking part in this Don't Pay campaign will they just get their £67 knocked off what they owe? And what about people on pre-payment meters? I haven't heard fuck all what I'm getting.







__





						Getting the Energy Bills Support Scheme discount
					

Find out about the Energy Bills Support Scheme and how you can get support this winter.




					www.gov.uk
				




This outlines most situations and should be followed by all energy suppliers.

ETA sorry I don’t know how Don’t Pay will be affected


----------



## alex_ (Aug 21, 2022)

CH1 said:


> If they are fully hedged they shouldn't be putting their prices up at all.
> This is like Roulette where the gamblers are charging the cleaners for their losses.



Ones which are receiving subsidy’s have to pay cash back according to this How high power prices present an opportunity for renewables generators


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 21, 2022)

Normal country.









						Libraries and museums to be ‘warm havens’ for people struggling with energy bills
					

Libraries and museums are asking ministers for funding to cope with a rise in the number of visitors seeking shelter




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## zora (Aug 21, 2022)

Question: I live in a shared flat, and my flatmate who has been looking after the bills is moving out. I therefore need to start a new energy contract in my name.
We are currently with Octopus, and used to pay £110 a month for gas and electricity for three people, which was put up two months ago to £216. 
Does anyone know, can I expect that this £216 is similar to what we will be billed when I start a new contract, and is this the sort of amount that's currently expected to cover the winter months if paid monthly, or is this higher amount expected to rise by x1.5 or x2  again???
(I have read the entire thread, but am struggling to translate to what it might mean for my situation).


----------



## JimW (Aug 21, 2022)

In what sense is it a price cap if it just keeps getting adjusted upwards as circumstances change? More some sort of aspirational number.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 21, 2022)

zora said:


> Question: I live in a shared flat, and my flatmate who has been looking after the bills is moving out. I therefore need to start a new energy contract in my name.
> We are currently with Octopus, and used to pay £110 a month for gas and electricity for three people, which was put up two months ago to £216.
> Does anyone know, can I expect that this £216 is similar to what we will be billed when I start a new contract, and is this the sort of amount that's currently expected to cover the winter months if paid monthly, or is this higher amount expected to rise by x1.5 or x2  again???
> (I have read the entire thread, but am struggling to translate to what it might mean for my situation).



I'm assuming that when the price went up you didn't sign a new contract which fixes the prices for the next year or two. 

I'm afraid that the new higher price you are paying is expected to rise again in October, and then again in January


----------



## BigTom (Aug 21, 2022)

JimW said:


> In what sense is it a price cap if it just keeps getting adjusted upwards as circumstances change? More some sort of aspirational number.



ah well now my good fellow, as soon as the wholesale prices fall we'll definitely be reducing the price cap to force suppliers to charge a lower price. 
/tory


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 21, 2022)

zora said:


> Question: I live in a shared flat, and my flatmate who has been looking after the bills is moving out. I therefore need to start a new energy contract in my name.
> We are currently with Octopus, and used to pay £110 a month for gas and electricity for three people, which was put up two months ago to £216.
> Does anyone know, can I expect that this £216 is similar to what we will be billed when I start a new contract, and is this the sort of amount that's currently expected to cover the winter months if paid monthly, or is this higher amount expected to rise by x1.5 or x2  again???
> (I have read the entire thread, but am struggling to translate to what it might mean for my situation).


I hate to be the bearer of bad news but based on predictions in the news that £216 could around the £350+ mark come October


----------



## emanymton (Aug 21, 2022)

JimW said:


> In what sense is it a price cap if it just keeps getting adjusted upwards as circumstances change? More some sort of aspirational number.


Look at you with your logic and words meaning what they mean.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 21, 2022)

BigTom said:


> ah well now my good fellow, as soon as the wholesale prices fall we'll definitely be reducing the price cap to force suppliers to charge a lower price.
> /tory


That was their argument for changing it to 3 months it will fall faster when prices fall but no-one is expecting prices to fall soon


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 21, 2022)

not a trot said:


> ​
> ​I received the same email.​
> ​Hello xxxxxxxx​
> *We know times are really hard at the moment, with rises in living costs putting pressure on your budget. And some of our customers may find it difficult managing their energy bills.*
> ...


That's the one it's interesting that they're actually taking steps to prevent people from diverting any of that money into spending elsewhere


----------



## CH1 (Aug 21, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Ones which are receiving subsidy’s have to pay cash back according to this How high power prices present an opportunity for renewables generators


I don't know about that - what I was referring to was "if they are fully hedged" which I took to mean if they have all their anticipated gas and electricity usage covered in advance at a viable price. Is that not what hedging is?

I believe this article covers the issue Fuel hedging - Wikipedia


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 21, 2022)

Christ, anything but introducing an actually meaningful energy price cap????










						Libraries and museums to be ‘warm havens’ for people struggling with energy bills
					

Libraries and museums are asking ministers for funding to cope with a rise in the number of visitors seeking shelter




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## CH1 (Aug 21, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Christ, anything but introducing an actually meaningful energy price cap????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The council are taking over Wetherspoons mantle then?


----------



## zora (Aug 21, 2022)

Thanks, BigTom and MickiQ. That is somewhat worse than I thought/hoped. This is were the rebate comes in? E.g. if monthly bill rises to £350, there will be a refund of £60, making it in effect £290?


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 21, 2022)

zora said:


> Thanks, BigTom and MickiQ. That is somewhat worse than I thought/hoped. This is were the rebate comes in? E.g. if monthly bill rises to £350, there will be a refund of £60, making it in effect £290?


From the email it appears you will pay them £350 and about a week later they give you £67 back


----------



## alex_ (Aug 21, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I don't know about that - what I was referring to was "if they are fully hedged" which I took to mean if they have all their anticipated gas and electricity usage covered in advance at a viable price. Is that not what hedging is?
> 
> I believe this article covers the issue Fuel hedging - Wikipedia



Yes - that’s what hedging is - for every customer on a fixed price they have either a fixed contract to buy, or some form of futures trade which offsets the price rise.

the above article is avout about renewables producers who are receiving subsidies having to pay excess revenue back when they are paid over certain amounts.

Interestingly at the July 2022 recent renewables auctions - the average price for a range of solar and on/off shore wind was about 4p per kw/hr.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 21, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Yes - that’s what hedging is - for every customer on a fixed price they have either a fixed contract to buy, or some form of futures trade which offsets the price rise.



This is also the fucked up thing about bulb and the other suppliers which went bust, they were able amass millions of customers on a business model which was guaranteed to fail if gas prices suddenly rose and stayed high but with guaranteed profits if gas prices fell as well as the opportunity to make trading profits.

Another example of a Tory “market” which socialises the losses and privatises the profits. 

It would have been trivial for regulators to either require hedging equivalent to customer commitments or require capital guarantees - like banks have to.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 21, 2022)

JimW said:


> In what sense is it a price cap if it just keeps getting adjusted upwards as circumstances change? More some sort of aspirational number.


It's like when cricketers give their caps to an umpire to keep, eventually they're wearing several caps on top of each other.


----------



## extra dry (Aug 21, 2022)

Everyone Stop Paying. Of course the company will cut you off


----------



## CH1 (Aug 21, 2022)

extra dry said:


> Everyone Stop Paying. Of course the company will cut you off


They seem to be getting ready with me - yet another threatening letter "Your gas meter is unsafe"


----------



## LDC (Aug 21, 2022)

extra dry said:


> Everyone Stop Paying. Of course the company will cut you off











						FAQs — Don't Pay
					

Who is Don’t Pay? Won't they just cut off my gas and electricity? Do have to say I won't pay now?




					dontpay.uk


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 21, 2022)

CH1 said:


> They seem to be getting ready with me - yet another threatening letter "Your gas meter is unsafe"


Are they telling you they will only replace it with a smart meter?


----------



## CH1 (Aug 21, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Are they telling you they will only replace it with a smart meter?


Not sure - I chucked it in the bin. I have had letters in the past saying they want to change my meter - and the new one WON'T be a Smart Meter. I have to say some of my neighbours have meters outside exposed to the elements and look very unsafe. Perils of me being in a non-converted non-multiocced house I suppose.

I had thought of the line "You've only got a few years until I die, then you'll need three more meters when the place has been re-developed." But that might only encourage them. FOUR jobs instead of one!


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 21, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Not sure - I chucked it in the bin. I have had letters in the past saying they want to change my meter - and the new one WON'T be a Smart Meter. I have to say some of my neighbours have meters outside exposed to the elements and look very unsafe. Perils of me being in a non-converted non-multiocced house I suppose.
> 
> I had thought of the line "You've only got a few years until I die, then you'll need three more meters when the place has been re-developed." But that might only encourage them. FOUR jobs instead of one!


How long have they been harassing you? I would have thought that if the meter (especially gas) is unsafe there would come a point at which they would just force a new meter on you.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 21, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> How long have they been harassing you? I would have thought that if the meter (especially gas) is unsafe there would come a point at which they would just force a new meter on you.


It all started with Ovo taking over from Economy Energy some years back.
You will observe up thread that Ovo will do anything to max out your bill!
I am now with Shell - but the infection seems to have spread. These people are like mediaeval barbers.
High blood pressure sir? Let me apply my cut throat razor.

Actually I would willingly pay them to install a new cooker - but that isn't what they are interested in.
Although they may be - if they come to check the meter!


----------



## alex_ (Aug 21, 2022)

CH1 said:


> They seem to be getting ready with me - yet another threatening letter "Your gas meter is unsafe"



I’m pretty sure if it was actually unsafe they’d be turning it off and fixing it.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 21, 2022)

CH1 said:


> It all started with Ovo taking over from Economy Energy some years back.
> You will observe up thread that Ovo will do anything to max out your bill!
> I am now with Shell - but the infection seems to have spread. These people are like mediaeval barbers.
> High blood pressure sir? Let me apply my cut throat razor.
> ...



Ovo pay interest on your balance, upto 3% iirc - which for at least the last 10 years is way better then you get on a current account


----------



## CH1 (Aug 21, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Ovo pay interest on your balance, upto 3% iirc - which for at least the last 10 years is way better then you get on a current account


You are talking with hindsight - or you would be if you were me. I agree - but I must say I prefer the freedon of not having a monthly direct debit calculated by the Ovo algorithm, and only paying for what I use - 3% or no 3%.
I bet this 3% on credit balances is not agreed by guaranteed by OFGEM BTW.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 21, 2022)

alex_ said:


> I’m pretty sure if it was actually unsafe they’d be turning it off and fixing it.


Last time anyone bothered to send a meter reader it Atlantic Electric & Gas (part of SSE) about 7 years ago.
Country's gone to the dogs!


----------



## alex_ (Aug 21, 2022)

CH1 said:


> You are talking with hindsight - or you would be if you were me. I agree - but I must say I prefer the freedon of not having a monthly direct debit calculated by the Ovo algorithm, and only paying for what I use - 3% or no 3%.
> I bet this 3% on credit balances is not agreed by guaranteed by OFGEM BTW.



You can adjust what ovo calculated and they warn you it won’t be enough - but you can do it.

I checked it’s 5%, and it’s added to your balance so it must be covered by the guarantee.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 21, 2022)

alex_ said:


> You can adjust what ovo calculated and they warn you it won’t be enough - but you can do it.
> 
> I checked it’s 5%, and it’s added to your balance so it must be covered by the guarantee.


I don't think you are right about 5%. Do your have proof?
According to This is Money in 2014 Ovo were told to stop paying interest








						Ovo Energy ordered to stop paying interest on bills overpayments
					

Customers who have built up a credit with the firm get 3 per cent interest on their balance. But now Ofgem says the interest payment breaks its new rules.




					www.thisismoney.co.uk
				



This is Money seems to belong to the Daily Mail - so this might be fantasy. If its true shows how inefficient OFGEM are - 8 years on and Ovo are still at it!


----------



## alex_ (Aug 21, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I don't think you are right about 5%. Do your have proof?
> According to This is Money in 2014 Ovo were told to stop paying interest
> 
> 
> ...



My most recent ovo bill shows an “interest reward”, basic calculation shows an interest rate of somewhere between 4 and 5%.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 21, 2022)

alex_ said:


> My most recent ovo bill shows an “interest reward”, basic calculation shows an interest rate of somewhere between 4 and 5%.


Have you "grossed up" to account for interest taxed at source - and do Ovo provide a tax voucher every year?
They are supposed to do this.
Even Halifax which has a major aversion to posting anything except changes to terms and conditions used to certify the tax paid on its Reward Accounts (until they abolished the Reward!!)


----------



## alex_ (Aug 21, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Have you "grossed up" to account for interest taxed at source - and do Ovo provide a tax voucher every year?
> They are supposed to do this.
> Even Halifax which has a major aversion to posting anything except changes to terms and conditions used to certify the tax paid on its Reward Accounts (until they abolished the Reward!!)



I’ve wondered about this ! ( but no ! )


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 23, 2022)

CEO of EDF quoted in the guardian as “warning customers are facing a dire winter”

Dude, you literally run the electricity company, lower the bills you fucker.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 23, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> CEO of EDF quoted in the guardian as “warning customers are facing a dire winter”
> 
> Dude, you literally run the electricity company, lower the bills you fucker.



EDF are Wholly owned by the French government who have capped French consumer prices, so British consumers are paying to cap French consumers prices.


----------



## contadino (Aug 23, 2022)

alex_ said:


> EDF are Wholly owned by the French government who have capped French consumer prices, so British consumers are paying to cap French consumers prices.


Intertesting angle to see it from. Not UK govt aiding/encouraging EDF to gouge their customers?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2022)

alex_ said:


> EDF are Wholly owned by the French government who have capped French consumer prices, so British consumers are paying to cap French consumers prices.


slightly more complicated, edf owned by electricite de france, who are 85% owned by the french government


----------



## alex_ (Aug 23, 2022)

contadino said:


> Intertesting angle to see it from. Not UK govt aiding/encouraging EDF to gouge their customers?



Both are true.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 23, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> slightly more complicated, edf owned by electricite de france, who are 85% owned by the french government



The French are currently buying the other 15%


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2022)

alex_ said:


> The French are currently buying the other 15%


grateful for your mea culpa


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Y'haven't got it yet. There's still mileage in this



I blame you for this. 

Today's the ombudsman's deadline for OVO to have acted on the ombudsman's decision, which was very clear in the body text that my bills from both the SSE & OVO systems needed to be re-billed, so the correct meter reading is transferred over from the SSE to OVO system.



> OVO Energy have advised that based on the meter readings you provided of 26 January 2022 - 13847 and 21 May 2022 – 14420, they explain your meter reading can be amended from 16682 to 13668 and your account with SSE will need to be rebilled. *Then* your OVO account would be rebilled and use the meter readings you have provided.



It says the SSE bills need to be re-issued and THEN the OVO ones, it mentioned meter readings, but not balance.

Now I assumed, and I expect most people would, that today I should have all the re-issued bills, and see the correct meter reading AND balance transferred over, but no the SSE bills haven't been re-issued, and whilst the ones on the OVO system have been re-issued with the correct start reading, they don't have the correct start balance of £600+ and still shows -£105 when I was transferred, which is frankly pointless.

I was expecting to see the account in credit by about £700 and not just £75.

I spoke to OVO, and they have basically ignored the body text of the decisions, and instead just quoted this bit at the end -



> REMEDY
> Issue an apology
> Provide a goodwill gesture of £150 to your energy account
> *Raise dispute to change closing SSE read to 13668 and opening OVO read to 13668*



- and claim they only had to raise the dispute with SSE*, remember they are part of OVO not some totally separate company, and they didn't have to make sure that was resolved before today, so they would have the correct balance before the re-issue of the OVO bills, they accept those will need to get re-billed yet again once they have the correct balance, and don't get why I am miffed.

* Despite them admitting to the ombudsman back in mid-June that they needed to re-issue the SSE bills, they didn't bother to raise the matter with the SSE team until 1st August, and it has to be done within 12 weeks, so up to another 9 weeks.

Needless to say I am waiting on the ombudsman to return my call.


----------



## cesare (Aug 23, 2022)

Bloody hell


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I blame you for this.



In other news:-

My DD with Bulb is sorted, my balance now sits at zero, I'm only paying for what I use

My bulk LPG tank has been refilled at last years price and, if frugal, I should have enough gas for this winter, next summer and winter 2023/4

I've enough wood to see most of this coming winter and enough smokeless coal to see out the balance. The coal and wood was, again, bought at pre-energry crisis prices

It's really not that difficult  

Oh! Yes, I'm currently in discussion with Taunton District Council to get our lane widened to enable other bulk LPG suppliers to deliver to our house thus giving us the benefit of access to cheaper gas in the future - I'm confident that this will be completed before you get you electricity bill sorted

<blows kiss to Mr Stunt>


----------



## Dogsauce (Aug 23, 2022)

Prices are going up next week aren’t they? Is it worth sending in a meter reading now to pay for what we’ve used under the old pricing? There’s been builders in running and charging power tools for the last six months so likely to be above normal usage.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 23, 2022)

Dogsauce said:


> Prices are going up next week aren’t they? Is it worth sending in a meter reading now to pay for what we’ve used under the old pricing? There’s been builders in running and charging power tools for the last six months so likely to be above normal usage.


I believe they announce what the cap will be this Friday but I don't believe any more blood will be wrung out of the stone until October


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 23, 2022)

Dogsauce said:


> Prices are going up next week aren’t they? Is it worth sending in a meter reading now to pay for what we’ve used under the old pricing? There’s been builders in running and charging power tools for the last six months so likely to be above normal usage.


Yes. However all the world and his dog will also be doing this so get one in now and then daily(?) until the system goes into melt down


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I blame you for this.
> 
> Today's the ombudsman's deadline for OVO to have acted on the ombudsman's decision, which was very clear in the body text that my bills from both the SSE & OVO systems needed to be re-billed, so the correct meter reading is transferred over from the SSE to OVO system.
> 
> ...


Mate, I am laughing, but I'm not iykwim, what's your middle name? Lucky? 

If you hadn't documented this no one would believe you otherwise


----------



## emanymton (Aug 23, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> If you hadn't documented this no one would believe you otherwise


They should turn it into a film.


Be a bloody boring film mind.


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 24, 2022)

emanymton said:


> They should turn it into a film.



'Twould have to be a trilogy, to rival Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit to match the scale of the spectacle - a saga of a lonesome homeowner heroically battling the might of the bureaucratically evil Lord Ovo - one bill to pay it all


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Oh! Yes, I'm currently in discussion with Taunton District Council to get our lane widened to enable other bulk LPG suppliers to deliver to our house thus giving us the benefit of access to cheaper gas in the future - I'm confident that this will be completed before you get you electricity bill sorted



I thought you lived in the soon to be abolished Mendip District Council area.


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 24, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I thought you lived in the soon to be abolished Mendip District Council area.


I do but roadworks are still covered by Taunton, Mendip are responsible for sweeping the road, something that's never been done in the 15+ years we've lived here... That maybe another battle


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I do but roadworks are still covered by Taunton, Mendip are responsible for sweeping the road, something that's never been done in the 15+ years we've lived here... That maybe another battle



Surely roadworks are down to Somerset County Council?


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 24, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Surely roadworks are down to Somerset County Council?


Sorry, I meant Somerset CC, who're based in Taunton, you're correct.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Sorry, I meant Somerset CC, who're based in Taunton, you're correct.



Good job someone knows which councils are responsible for your area. 

Back to OVO, I was angry at first yesterday, but TBH I am laughing about it now, I can't believe they are so fucking useless in dealing with complaints, esp. when the ombudsman is involved.

It'll be interesting to find out what the ombudsman thinks about this latest situation, I should get a call today, it would be nice if they can put a rocket up OVO's arse, if not it's only another couple of months of waiting, and it's been over 7 months so far.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 24, 2022)

__





						Ed Miliband (@Ed_Miliband)
					

New renewable power is now NINE TIMES cheaper than gas.  This energy crisis is a fossil fuel crisis. The way to solve it for good - whilst strengthening our energy security and tackling the climate crisis - is to get on with the clean energy sprint that Labour has called for.




					nitter.it
				




Gas prices currently 9x recent renewables contracts.

Look at the trend lines for solar and wind 



			https://nitter.it/pic/orig/enc/bWVkaWEvRmE3Z1BUT1ZRQUFtNUpMLmpwZw==


----------



## CH1 (Aug 24, 2022)

alex_ said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...







__





						Manias, Panics and Crashes By Charles Poor Kindleberger | Used | 9780471161714 | World of Books
					

Buy Manias, Panics and Crashes: A History of Financial Crises By Charles Poor Kindleberger. Available in used condition with free delivery in the UK. ISBN: 9780471161714. ISBN-10: 0471161713




					www.wob.com
				



Tulipomania all over again?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 24, 2022)

The Isle of Man is more decisive that the British government 









						Isle of Man to freeze electricity prices until 2023
					

Manx government reveals deal to protect residents and businesses from 70% rise in tariffs this winter




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## alex_ (Aug 24, 2022)

CH1 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No - because gas shortage is real


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Aug 24, 2022)

It's OK the CEO of Scottish Power has put forward  a scheme whereby the energy supply companies would be given access to £100 billion in commercial loans backed 
by the  government  backed. They would use these to buy energy at full market  prices while not passing on the increased costs to consumers. 

So the banks and the energy producers would be quids in, billions of quids in. The energy suppliers would remain solvent and in private hands. 

And...oh we would be paying back the debt over the next 20 or 30 years either in our bills or through taxation. So which is it to be, a mortgage or a student loan to keep your lights on, your home warm, your fridge cold and your food cooked? They must think we are really really stupid.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## CH1 (Aug 24, 2022)

alex_ said:


> No - because gas shortage is real


You could argue that the price for the last 10 years did not recognise that.
But Kindleberger's point is that pricing is a phenomenon of crowd psychology.
You doubtless are  not old enough to remember the oil price shock of 1973 and the subsequent 10 year inflation.
But you might remember Enron  Enron - Wikipedia  and possibly even WorldCom WorldCom scandal - Wikipedia

Surely a visitor from Mars might be forgiven for asking how the British energy market these last few years differs from those two scandals.
30 "energy providers" "left the market"  i.e. went bust in 3 years. And that is normal? And that is BEFORE Ukraine.

What has happened is the British consumer has been taken to a Switchback Ride - and now the chickens have come home to roost it's all the fault of Russia and Ukraine. How convenient!


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 24, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> It's OK the CEO of Scottish Power has put forward  a scheme whereby the energy supply companies would be given access to £100 billion in commercial loans backed
> by the  government  backed. They would use these to buy energy at full market  prices while not passing on the increased costs to consumers.
> 
> So the banks and the energy producers would be quids in, billions of quids in. The energy suppliers would remain solvent and in private hands.
> ...


This is probably the most viable idea so far, it certainly beats tax cuts or having the GP writing a prescription for energy which is what Loopie Lizzie and her mates are offering. Even if the energy companies were nationalised though they would still have to pay full market prices for the gas or it wouldn't get sold to them so it would still end up being paid by the taxpayer (or going on the national debt) at some point.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Aug 24, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> This is probably the most viable idea so far, it certainly beats tax cuts or having the GP writing a prescription for energy which is what Loopie Lizzie and her mates are offering. Even if the energy companies were nationalised though they would still have to pay full market prices for the gas or it wouldn't get sold to them so it would still end up being paid by the taxpayer (or going on the national debt) at some point.



It is just the energy supply  companies kicking the can down the road in a way that protects them, loads debt onto consumers and guarantees levels of demand that the energy producers are unable/unwilling to meet. Handily for finance capital it also puts £100 billion of business the banks' way.

Much better to bring the suppliers into social ownership as a necessary public utility, charged not just with the provision and maintenance of supply but also with the promotion and development of energy efficiency. 

The government doesn't need to borrow at commercial banking rates, indeed it could use other methods to raise finance e.g. issuing bonds or god forbid printing money! Also as a single unified purchaser it would be in a stronger market position to make deals with producers. And rather than seeking to recover costs from many impoverished consumers, the government could tax the profits and wealth of those who far from suffering at the present time are actually filling their boots.

It's  all about political will and choices. We made economics, economics needn't control us; rather if the current system doesn't meet our needs then we can/should/must remake the system.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice 

p.s. Post War the notion of making/limiting/remaking the market to better meet society's needs was a common place of politics...it just sounds weird in these increasingly weird times.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 24, 2022)




----------



## MickiQ (Aug 24, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> It is just the energy supply  companies kicking the can down the road in a way that protects them, loads debt onto consumers and guarantees levels of demand that the energy producers are unable/unwilling to meet. Handily for finance capital it also puts £100 billion of business the banks' way.
> 
> Much better to bring the suppliers into social ownership as a necessary public utility, charged not just with the provision and maintenance of supply but also with the promotion and development of energy efficiency.
> 
> ...


Agree totally as do indeed about 80% of the population however nationalism has been ruled out not only by the Govt but bizarrely by the Labour Party has well who you would think would seize the chance to have a popular policy that is radically different from the Tories.
It's a bit like England (men naturally, the ladies have a chance) winning the next World Cup. It's possible and lots of people want it but it isn't going to happen


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Aug 24, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Agree totally as do indeed about 80% of the population however nationalism has been ruled out not only by the Govt but bizarrely by the Labour Party has well who you would think would seize the chance to have a popular policy that is radically different from the Tories.
> It's a bit like England (men naturally, the ladies have a chance) winning the next World Cup. It's possible and lots of people want it but it isn't going to happen



I think you mean nationalisation not nationalism has been ruled out. And you are right we can't look to the Labour Party; we have to look to ourselves together.

Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 24, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> It's OK the CEO of Scottish Power has put forward  a scheme whereby the energy supply companies would be given access to £100 billion in commercial loans backed
> by the  government  backed. They would use these to buy energy at full market  prices while not passing on the increased costs to consumers.
> 
> So the banks and the energy producers would be quids in, billions of quids in. The energy suppliers would remain solvent and in private hands.
> ...



Essentially, its "Bail out the Banks 2.0"


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 24, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I think you mean nationalisation not nationalism has been ruled out. And you are right we can't look to the Labour Party; we have to look to ourselves together.
> 
> Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


Damn auto correct strikes again


----------



## CH1 (Aug 25, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Damn auto correct strikes again


Is your Anti-Wike setting on or off?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 25, 2022)

I haven't received the expected call back from the ombudsman, which is odd as my case handler has been brilliant so far, I wonder if she's on holiday or off sick.

I was thinking of ringing the main number, but thought I would check my OVO account first, my balance was under £70 this morning, now it's...



...so something is going on, that's a bit less than I was expecting, but until I receive all the corrected bills from both the company's systems. SSE & OVO, I can't be sure.

But, bearing in mind my correct monthly DD should be £125pm now, but I've only paid £1 for each of the last two months, you can see why I needed this sorted, because otherwise that current balance would £880.98.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 25, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I haven't received the expected call back from the ombudsman, which is odd as my case handler has been brilliant so far, I wonder if she's on holiday or off sick.
> 
> I was thinking of ringing the main number, but thought I would check my OVO account first, my balance was under £70 this morning, now it's...
> 
> ...


If you can I would draw that out pronto before the fuckers lose it again.


----------



## Storm Fox (Aug 25, 2022)

The cap has been raised to be more than £3500 for the average household. Raised from £1800 in April. 

I just don't know how people are going to be able to cope. 









						Labour calls for emergency budget as energy cap set to top £3,500
					

Ofgem announcement will ‘strike fear’ into hearts, says Rachel Reeves, amid accusations of profiteering at oil and gas firms




					www.theguardian.com
				




Just looking at it from a business sense. It is just going to force more people into debt or for them to refuse to pay. It is going to tank the rest of the economy while one sector gets all the profits. It's crazy.

Looking at it from a moral viewpoint it's disgusting.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 25, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> The cap has been raised to be more than £3500 for the average household. Raised from £1800 in April.
> 
> I just don't know how people are going to be able to cope.
> 
> ...


I'm surprised there isn't more of a fuss coming for "business" there bills are going up even more and any business relying on people with disposable income must surely be worried about losing income while there bills are going up.

I guess most business cunts are too stupid and self absorbed to care about the damage being done to the economy as a whole.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 25, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Means testing is notoriously expensive and it’s almost always cheaper to just make it a universal payout
> 
> It isn’t ideal in that for the rich it’s money they don’t need or deserve but to slice the data by household would mean referring to huge blocks of data



Usually means testing is a prelude to trying to end the program.  Then they can claim that its only "benefit scroungers looking for a handout" that get it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 25, 2022)

Crabs in buckets though, "what if someone doesn't _deserve_ help"

Deeply embedded in the system and media landscape


----------



## Storm Fox (Aug 25, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Crabs in buckets though, "what if someone doesn't _deserve_ help"
> 
> Deeply embedded in the system and media landscape


Along with the classic 'why should anyone get something I can't get?'


----------



## Duncan2 (Aug 25, 2022)

It's times like this that demonstrate that the real powers that be are giant corporations such as Centrica and Exxon Mobil .In solidarity with Ukraine governments eschew Russian oil and gas putting themselves at the mercy of the energy suppliers who respond promptly by jacking their prices up to exorbitant levels.What can be done about this?bugger all it seems because corporations don't have moral agency and they are above the law.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 25, 2022)

Duncan2 said:


> It's times like this that demonstrate that the real powers that be are giant corporations such as Centrica and Exxon Mobil .In solidarity with Ukraine governments eschew Russian oil and gas putting themselves at the mercy of the energy suppliers who respond promptly by jacking their prices up to exorbitant levels.What can be done about this?bugger all it seems because corporations don't have moral agency and they are above the law.


It's almost as though these corporations don't know we've got our blue passports back.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 26, 2022)

OFGEM has now officially announced the new price cap, up from £1,971 in April, to £3549 from Oct., that's an increase of just over 80%, on top of the 57% back in April.  

That's my monthly DD up from £125 to £225.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OFGEM has now officially announced the new price cap, up from £1,971 in April, to £3549 from Oct., that's an increase of just over 80%, on top of the 57% back in April.


Yeah just saw that and I read it could eventually go to £5000


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 26, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Yeah just saw that and I read it could eventually go to £5000



The highest estimate I've seen is over £5300 from next April.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-62633742


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 26, 2022)

What is a typical household? I've seen this loads of times, but never an explanation of what it is.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> What is a typical household? I've seen this loads of times, but never an explanation of what it is.


A couple with 2.4 children i guess.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 26, 2022)

Currently paying £128 a month, that's going to more than double


----------



## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

We should be glad to pay the extra. Won't somebody think of the energy companies shareholders?    ((((shareholders))))


----------



## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

weepiper said:


> Currently paying £128 a month, that's going to more than double


Not worked mine out yet


----------



## fucthest8 (Aug 26, 2022)

Well, it's convinced me to sign up to Don't Pay. Time to stop talking about it and actually do something. 
I'm in favour of, well, literally anything that means the government and energy firms can't ignore what's happening to people. It's time to burn some things down. Metaphorically speaking, of course.


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 26, 2022)

moochedit said:


> A couple with 2.4 children i guess.


Living in a house too I assume. We're paying £69 currently so suspect it will go up to £130.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 26, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> The cap has been raised to be more than £3500 for the average household. Raised from £1800 in April.
> 
> I just don't know how people are going to be able to cope.
> 
> ...



This 'cap' business is a bad fucking joke. In the one hand it's no use to customers because it keeps going up; on the other hand it makes a mockery of the whole 'free market' thing that's supposed to be the justification for having this privatised shitshow in the first place.


----------



## fucthest8 (Aug 26, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Not worked mine out yet



My provider - Octopus - has introduced Crystal Ball mode on their forecast tool, which attempts to estimate the cost of my usage on what they think the changes to price cap will mean, so including the next move.

It projects my January bill at £500. Last year was about £120 iirc
3 bed mid terrace, new-ish double glazing all round, roof properly insulated etc.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 26, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> What is a typical household? I've seen this loads of times, but never an explanation of what it is.



I just worked out the cost of my annual usage*, which is around 25% less than the price cap, so I can make fairly accurate estimates going forward, then I can ensure any change in my DD is about right, i.e. up from £125 to £225pm.

* 2-bed semi, well insulated & double glazed, just me most of the time, but I work from home.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> This 'cap' business is a bad fucking joke. In the one hand it's no use to customers because it keeps going up; on the other hand it makes a mockery of the whole 'free market' thing that's supposed to be the justification for having this privatised shitshow in the first place.


They should keep the cap as it is, wait for the companies to go bust and then nationalise them. (Not gonna happen i know)


----------



## brogdale (Aug 26, 2022)

Second up against the wall...

_Who we are_​_Ofgem is Great Britain’s independent energy regulator.
We work to protect energy consumers, especially vulnerable people, by ensuring they are treated fairly and benefit from a cleaner, greener environment._


----------



## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I just worked out the cost of my annual usage*, which is around 25% less than the price cap, so I can make fairly accurate estimates going forward, then I can ensure any change in my DD is about right, i.e. up from £125 to £225pm.
> 
> * 2-bed semi, well insulated & double glazed, just me most of the time, but I work from home.


My current combined gas and electric direct debit is £160 a month. So i guess i need to add 80% to that?  Edit - £288


----------



## kabbes (Aug 26, 2022)

Very good impassioned and audibly upset speech from Martin Lewis on Radio 4 about how shit the government have been, how everybody saw this coming 6 months ago and how people are going to die as a result.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

Meanwhile Russia is burning gas off  

BBC: Climate change: Russia burning huge amounts of gas, puzzling experts.









						Climate change: Russia burns off gas as Europe's energy bills rocket
					

Russia is burning off millions of dollars in gas every day at a plant near the Finnish border.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 26, 2022)

moochedit said:


> They should keep the cap as it is, wait for the companies to go bust and then nationalise them. (Not gonna happen i know)



Even if that was done, it wouldn't help so long as we're locked into the international wholesale prices, as we will still end-up paying for it directly, or indirectly in taxes over the coming years if the government pays the different between what customers are paying and the actual price.

The supply companies on average make less than £30 per year per household, which is a drop in the ocean.

It's the producers that are ranking it in, the only sensible suggestion I've heard came from the boss of one of the green energy suppliers. He pointed out the UK produces about 50% of our gas and about 90% of our electric, so all of that should be capped at last year's price, exception being electric produced from gas, thus we only pay the international wholesale prices on what we import.

The cost of drilling for gas has not gone up, nor has electric produced by nuclear or renewables, but clearly electric from gas fuelled power stations will have gone up, but that increase would be halved if UK produced gas wasn't linked to international prices.

I am sure it would be complex to sort out, but not impossible.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 26, 2022)

Well my bill is £85 and an 80% rise is £153 but I suspect it will be higher than that

I’m not able to work overtime anymore at work so I’m 10% worse off from September anyway.


----------



## kabbes (Aug 26, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Meanwhile Russia is burning gas off
> 
> BBC: Climate change: Russia burning huge amounts of gas, puzzling experts.
> 
> ...


If Russia can’t sell it to Europe, they may well have no choice but to burn it off. They have a certain capacity for storage and pipes to other regions are tiny compared with their pipes to Europe.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 26, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Meanwhile Russia is burning gas off
> 
> BBC: Climate change: Russia burning huge amounts of gas, puzzling experts.
> 
> ...





> *As Europe's energy costs skyrocket, Russia is burning off large amounts of natural gas, according to analysis shared with BBC News.*
> Experts say the gas would previously have been exported to Germany.
> They say the plant near the border with Finland, is burning an estimated $10m (£8.4m) worth of gas every day.
> Scientists are concerned about the large volumes of carbon dioxide and soot it is creating, which could exacerbate the melting of Arctic ice.
> The analysis by Rystad Energy indicates that around 4.34 million cubic metres of gas are being burned by the flare every day.



Fucking hell!


----------



## Cerv (Aug 26, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> What is a typical household? I've seen this loads of times, but never an explanation of what it is.


a right pain in the arse is what it is.

can you imagine if the cost of petrol or bread was quoted in the same way? a notional annual total instead of per litre or per loaf.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 26, 2022)

Cerv said:


> a right pain in the arse is what it is.
> 
> can you imagine if the cost of petrol or bread was quoted in the same way? a notional annual total instead of per litre or per loaf.


yes, why do they not quote figures in kWh? 

And better Russia burn off the gas instead of just releasing it into the atmosphere (better would be not wasting it at all of course).


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 26, 2022)

pretty cringe watching the bbc talk about the rise this morning and interview the public 
whilst not even making a remark about the government reaction to this


----------



## CH1 (Aug 26, 2022)

Cerv said:


> a right pain in the arse is what it is.
> 
> can you imagine if the cost of petrol or bread was quoted in the same way? a notional annual total instead of per litre or per loaf.


You are not allowing for the Existential subscription model of material life now well established.
The TV license has of course been vilified by the far right and Brexiteers "DEFUND THE BBC!", but the real villains are IT

look how you can no longer buy an HP printer without HP+ - a license to print pages under the control of software linked to Dr Evil in Palo Alto who dictates you are now ready for more paper or ink or toner. All this for a measly subscription of $9.99 a month or whatever.
then there is the ubiquitous Amazon Prime - where unless you take it you get surcharged to deliver your book or DVD order

This can only go so far. Consider the case of the Renaissance Church of Rome. For hundred of years they had imposed tithes on the population - but when services rendered were not commensurate with subscriptions paid there was a revolt

Henry VIII rebelled when the Pope would not allow him a divorce and as a result the Catholic church lost all its lands and buildings in England to the crown and its cronies - and of course we landed up with Dr Welby
similarly in  Euroland Martin Luther got fed up with the Pope touting pardons (to avoid eternal damnation) at a fee to pay for the likes of Michelangelo and Bernini to remodel St Peter's Basilica. Hence the 95 Theses - and half of Germany going Protestant at a stroke when  the German aristocracy cottoned on to the massive savings to be made.

Actually it may be in time that those whose fuel Direct Debits have doubled now are less impacted than those like me who have chosen the pay-as-you go model. I have no idea what my December fuel be will be - except it will be a Mamoth


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 26, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> pretty cringe watching the bbc talk about the rise this morning and interview the public
> whilst not even making a remark about the government reaction to this




What government reaction?


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 26, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> What government reaction?




more trying desperately not to make any remark about the government's lack of action or planning
just odd to see


----------



## prunus (Aug 26, 2022)

Cerv said:


> a right pain in the arse is what it is.
> 
> can you imagine if the cost of petrol or bread was quoted in the same way? a notional annual total instead of per litre or per loaf.



The actual kWh prices (which no bloody news outlet ever seems to list 😡😡) are here:









						Check if the energy price cap affects you
					

The energy price cap is backstop protection from the government for people who default onto their supplier's basic energy tariff.




					www.ofgem.gov.uk
				




Electricity going up 86%

Gas going up by 114%(!)


----------



## Cerv (Aug 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> And better Russia burn off the gas instead of just releasing it into the atmosphere (better would be not wasting it at all of course).


isn't releasing gas directly into the atmosphere likely to explode your plant? a controlled burn must be safer.

but yeah, obviously ramping down production and not wasting any at all would be better. just how fucked is the state of Russian industry if they can't manage that.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 26, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> pretty cringe watching the bbc talk about the rise this morning and interview the public
> whilst not even making a remark about the government reaction to this



Government, yeah good one.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 26, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Even if that was done, it wouldn't help so long as we're locked into the international wholesale prices, as we will still end-up paying for it directly, or indirectly in taxes over the coming years if the government pays the different between what customers are paying and the actual price.
> 
> The supply companies on average make less than £30 per year per household, which is a drop in the ocean.
> 
> ...



The government should have encouraged producers to increase domestic solar and wind before this winter. But they’ve done fuck all.

To be honest - if all they’d done is a variant of the renewables reverse auctions with the condition that planning permission was granted on the basis that systems would be generating before 1st November ( or whenever ) - the suppliers would have done the rest “for free” - and would have been fighting to do it.

What has actually been happening is that truss and Sunak have been busy telling Tory party members that they’d ban on shore solar and wind -the cheapest and quickest renewable energy sources.

( random internet source - solar farms take 2 months to build How Long Does It Take To Construct A Solar Farm? | YSG Solar )

And anyone saying “but solar doesn’t generate at night - it doesn’t matter - electricity costs currently are being driven by total gas quantity used - if you reduce the % you reduce the cost


----------



## two sheds (Aug 26, 2022)

Cerv said:


> isn't releasing gas directly into the atmosphere likely to explode your plant? a controlled burn must be safer.


I was thinking of the climate effects but yes indeed.



Cerv said:


> but yeah, obviously ramping down production and not wasting any at all would be better. just how fucked is the state of Russian industry if they can't manage that.



Mind you I think lots of western oil & gas producers still flare loads of gas. I wonder whether this is being described as 'burn off' to make it sound worse than flaring. It's a conspiracy I tell you


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Aug 26, 2022)

alex_ said:


> The government should have encouraged producers to increase domestic solar and wind before this winter. But they’ve done fuck all.
> 
> To be honest - if all they’d done is a variant of the renewables reverse auctions with the condition that planning permission was granted on the basis that systems would be generating before 1st November ( or whenever ) - the suppliers would have done the rest “for free” - and would have been fighting to do it.
> 
> ...


I think getting planning permission will lenghten the process somewhat though thanks to the nimby brigade.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 26, 2022)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> I think getting planning permission will lenghten the process somewhat though thanks to the nimby brigade.



Suitably determined Central government could have overridden this eg hs2.

ex-raf and army sites, land around existing and ex power stations ( which already have grid connections ) would all have been really obvious choices.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 26, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Government, yeah good one.


 ofgen is a government regulator is it not


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 26, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> ofgen is a government regulator is it not



It is to regulation what the pull-out method is to contraception.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 26, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Very good impassioned and audibly upset speech from Martin Lewis on Radio 4 about how shit the government have been, how everybody saw this coming 6 months ago and how people are going to die as a result.


the one remaining voice of reason crying out in the wilderness where no-one listens.




two sheds said:


> yes, why do they not quote figures in kWh?
> 
> And better Russia burn off the gas instead of just releasing it into the atmosphere (better would be not wasting it at all of course).


Methane is a greenhouse gas but not as bad as CO2 plus it  breaks down very rapidly in the atmosphere about 12 years compared to 100,000's for CO2. They flare it as a safety precaution (even the Russians take some) to prevent a localised explosion.
One of the things scientists looking for ET are searching for is the signature of methane since if it exists long term it means something is renewing it and on Earth that means life.

My energy bills are currently £210 per month so an 80% increase would be £378 it's a good job my mortgage is long paid off. I don't know what the actual figure will be, that £210 was calculated back in Sept when there were 5 adults in the house , now there are 2 plus a third during Uni  non-term times (though she's costing me a mint during term times anyway) plus I have taken a lot of steps to actively cut down my usage since then.

The only way out of this is for the Government to subsidise the price of energy several ways it can do this:-

1. Nationalise the distribution companies and just accept running them at a loss supported by general taxation. I suspect most people want this and it is probably the best idea so it's a pity it's the least likely.

2. Do the Scottish Power thing, freeze the price cap and guarantee loans to the distribution companies so they can afford to buy gas. 

3. Expand the Rishi Rich bribery scheme and just hand out dosh directly or indirectly.

The biggest problem at the moment is not the price rise, it's the fact that our Govt appears to have gone AWOL in the middle of a massive crisis. BoZo has stopped even pretending to be interested in the job and Loopy Lizzie and Rishi Rich are too busy trying to win the big seat by convincing 0.005% of the electorate that each of them are less 'woke' than the other.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Aug 26, 2022)

Every piece of commentary from Zahawi and other Tory talking heads is that stuff must be put in place "so the next Prime Minister can hit the ground running".

We don't have a government and haven't since June.

Nationalise the shit out of every energy company, with ZERO compensation above and beyond execs being allowed to keep heads attached to shoulders.  One word of complaint and that compensation no longer applies.


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 26, 2022)

Ax^ said:


> ofgen is a government regulator is it not



Like any British regulator it has no power at all and anything to solve the problem would take an act of government 


We do love a toothless regulator that can only sit on the sidelines and say careful now.


----------



## Petcha (Aug 26, 2022)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Every piece of commentary from Zahawi and other Tory talking heads is that stuff must be put in place "so the next Prime Minister can hit the ground running".
> 
> We don't have a government and haven't since June.
> 
> Nationalise the shit out of every energy company, with ZERO compensation above and beyond execs being allowed to keep heads attached to shoulders.  One word of complaint and that compensation no longer applies.



Where the hell is the fucking prime minister anyway? i know he's a bit of a lame duck but at least front up to the media.


----------



## Cerv (Aug 26, 2022)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Every piece of commentary from Zahawi and other Tory talking heads is that stuff must be put in place "so the next Prime Minister can hit the ground running".
> 
> We don't have a government and haven't since June.


for "hit the ground running" read "take the credit personally"

because the most important thing is that come the next election they can attach whatever help they came up with now to a "vote Truss" (or less likely Sunak) rather than just a "vote Conservative" message.


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 26, 2022)

Petcha said:


> Where the hell is the fucking prime minister anyway? i know he's a bit of a lame duck but at least front up to the media.




Nicking the silver from Chequers and scrawling his name into the woodwork of parliament. You know, important things


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## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

Just had an email from OVO to say they will contact me in September with new prices 

Edit - with a faux "we're here to support you"


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 26, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Just had an email from OVO to say they will contact me in September with new prices
> 
> Edit - with a faux "we're here to support you"



I got one of those at 9.06 am, couldn't be arsed to read it TBH.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 26, 2022)

Fed up with this .. 

Fridge, computer, cooker, lights, microwave, washing machine .. 

In that order ..  necessities .. Fridge all the time, the rest occasionally, washing machine about once a week. 

How dare they double or treble my electric spending?  

Fed up with this ..


----------



## two sheds (Aug 26, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Methane is a greenhouse gas but not as bad as CO2 plus it  breaks down very rapidly in the atmosphere about 12 years compared to 100,000's for CO2.



? 


> Since CO2 is being used as the reference, it has a GWP of one. Methane has a GWP of between 28 and 36 over 100 years, according to the EPA, meaning it is significantly more potent as a greenhouse gas than CO2.
> 
> It gets worse. The GWP of methane gets even higher over shorter periods of time due to the gas' shorter life span. Over a period of 20 years, methane has a GWP of between 84 and 87.
> 
> According to the Environmental Defense Fund, while CO2 lasts for longer than methane, methane "sets the pace for warming" in the short term.











						Methane vs CO2: Which is the most potent greenhouse gas as White House unveils new pledge
					

Dozens of countries have now promised to slash emissions of methane, a highly polluting greenhouse gas.




					www.newsweek.com
				




And it's the next 100 years that are the most important.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 26, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> It is to regulation what the pull-out method is to contraception.


The "Regulators" are to the privatised natural monopolies as the Labour party is to capitalism


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Methane is a greenhouse gas but not as bad as CO2 plus it  breaks down very rapidly in the atmosphere about 12 years compared to 100,000's for CO2.


you don't know what you're wittering on about. on a weight-for-weight basis its heating power is 21 times stronger than co2. and if you'd bothered paying attention, you'd know that we need to radically reduce co2 emissions by the end of the decade if we're to avoid really fucked up global warming. so emissions of methane NOW will have a disproportionate effect on things at what the scientific consensus is telling us is a vitally important period. in addition, there are vast areas of the earth's surface where methane formerly stored in the ground is being released eg siberia. Permafrost Thaw in Siberia Creates a Ticking 'Methane Bomb' of Greenhouse Gases, Scientists Warn now, you might not be concerned about methane as a greenhouse gas but the people who do the science very much are. there have been repeated expeditions to the arctic ocean in the last few years to try to find out about emissions from the methane hydrates under that water. there are some emissions which can be controlled, eg the flaring you refer to in your post. there are some emissions that might be reduced, eg from cattle bred for beef and dairy - if their numbers were er controlled. but there is fuck all that anyone can do to stop methane being emitted from the melting arctic permafrost and warmer years to come are i suggest unlikely to curtail the release of that gas - quite the contrary, i believe.


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 26, 2022)

_“The reality is we should all look at our energy consumption”_

Government in action, it’s the publics fault.


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## elbows (Aug 26, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> They split the price rise between the standing charge and the unit cost. That way you still get fucked over even if you switch everything off for the next six months.



I'm just quoting this post of yours fom February so that I can point out an interesting difference in the structure of the rises this time compared to that previous rise.

This time I notice that the next increase to the standing charge cap is minimal, and the very significant rise has almost all been put on the unit cost.

In various other stories about energy in this country in recent months, the government, national grid executives etc are usually keen to claim that we have a wonderful secure and diverse supply, and that any schemes such as the plan to pay people to use less electricity during key peak hours are not about energy rationing and demand destruction, honest.

But in reality I think we are in for a bumpy ride when it comes to the supply-demand balance this winter, and so I note with interest that they have structured the latest cap rise in a way that is compatible with encouraging/forcing people to use less energy in the next period.


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 26, 2022)

Can someone, in simple words please explain this to me - I've screen shotted what I think is the relevant "bit" from the Ofgem site re: price cap and I've also take a screen shot of my Bulb tariffs

The bulb tariffs appear to be over the price cap prices - the Ofgem prices are inclusive of VAT

Ofgem KWh 28p and Daily standing charge 45p

Whereas Bulb KWh 28.41p and daily standing charge 51.63p

What am I missing???


----------



## alex_ (Aug 26, 2022)

elbows said:


> I'm just quoting this post of yours fom February so that I can point out an interesting difference in the structure of the rises this time compared to that previous rise.
> 
> This time I notice that the next increase to the standing charge cap is minimal, and the very significant rise has almost all been put on the unit cost.
> 
> ...



Any schemes to pay people to reduce demand also disproportionally reward the better off who a) used more in the first place and b) have more modern appliances which enable demand shifting. “Don’t heat your pool or charge your car between 1600 and 2000 each day”

The amounts I’ve heard are huge - 6 gbp per kwhr not consumed - who pays that ? ( people who can’t demand shift )


----------



## emanymton (Aug 26, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I got one of those at 9.06 am, couldn't be arsed to read it TBH.


Just been looking over mine from SSE.

While it is of course full of crap. Having a big section headed like this is pretty remarkable really.


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 26, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> _“The reality is we should all look at our energy consumption”_
> 
> Government in action, it’s the publics fault.



aye hottest summer In 40 years but we all had the radiators on ffs


----------



## Petcha (Aug 26, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> _“The reality is we should all look at our energy consumption”_
> 
> Government in action, it’s the publics fault.



Tbf to him, he's just stating the bleeding obvious (to a degree). Although I'm sure he's still taking nice long showers and wont be catching pneumonia this winter (as i did two winters ago as we couldnt afford to heat the house).

Devils advocate here. Not sure what Ofgen can actually do, I kind get their point. It really is the government's role now to actually do something. Unfortunately we don't actually have a government at the moment.

I pray it will be a mild winter but given the bonkers summer we've had, the insane heatwave China's going through, the unprecedented floods in new zealand etc etc etc, I suspect we'll be treated to a freezing winter.


----------



## Cerv (Aug 26, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Can someone, in simple words please explain this to me - I've screen shotted what I think is the relevant "bit" from the Ofgem site re: price cap and I've also take a screen shot of my Bulb tariffs
> 
> The bulb tariffs appear to be over the price cap prices - the Ofgem prices are inclusive of VAT
> 
> ...


the cap does vary slightly in different regions. the table in your Ofgem screenshot is of the average across the country. 


can also vary by payment type (i.e. the direct debit discount) and meter type (economy meter with cheaper night time rate) but neither looks to be the difference in your case.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 26, 2022)

emanymton said:


> Just been looking over mine from SSE.
> 
> While it is of course full of crap. Having a big section headed like this is pretty remarkable really.



Exactly the same in the OVO e-mail, which as they own SSE [retail] is not surprising.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 26, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Can someone, in simple words please explain this to me - I've screen shotted what I think is the relevant "bit" from the Ofgem site re: price cap and I've also take a screen shot of my Bulb tariffs
> 
> The bulb tariffs appear to be over the price cap prices - the Ofgem prices are inclusive of VAT
> Ofgem KWh 28p and Daily standing charge 45p
> ...



For electric I am paying 28.08p KWh / standing charge 39.67p a day, plus VAT on both.

Perhaps you should to change to OVO. 

Although I wouldn't recommend it unless you get a smart meter, so you can keep an eye on them.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 26, 2022)

Petcha said:


> Tbf to him, he's just stating the bleeding obvious (to a degree). Although I'm sure he's still taking nice long showers and wont be catching pneumonia this winter (as i did two winters ago as we couldnt afford to heat the house).
> 
> Devils advocate here. Not sure what Ofgen can actually do, I kind get their point. It really is the government's role now to actually do something. Unfortunately we don't actually have a government at the moment.
> 
> I pray it will be a mild winter but given the bonkers summer we've had, the insane heatwave China's going through, the unprecedented floods in new zealand etc etc etc, I suspect we'll be treated to a freezing winter.



Ofgem can’t do shit but tut at people.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 26, 2022)

What we need is for them (yes them) to fund fusion! 

Never has fusion been more greatly needed. 

The opportunity to thumb your nose at fossil fuels!   

Fund fusion!!


----------



## Petcha (Aug 26, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Ofgem can’t do shit but tut at people.


I saw the CEO bring interviewed this morning and he came across as a genuine dude who was immensely frustrated. He did a fairly good job of explaining it all. Basically reading between the lines theres sweet fuck all they can do and they have no interest in screwing people over. All of Europe is screwed right now. The energy prices are what they are. Germany is paying the same as us etc. It's down to the govt to offer emergency assistance until the war in Europe is sorted from now but obv he has no control over that. I gather it's quite unprecedented for someone in his position to openly call for that. Not a job I would like I have to say, announcing this shit this morning.


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 26, 2022)

Oooo! I found this - don't know if it's of use to "people" and it would seem that I'm still paying over the odds .01p / KWh and .01p per day standing charge

Is it worth getting all upset about 0.01p per "thingy" - I shall sleep on it, but, as I'm retired now with fuck all else to do . . .


----------



## elbows (Aug 26, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Can someone, in simple words please explain this to me - I've screen shotted what I think is the relevant "bit" from the Ofgem site re: price cap and I've also take a screen shot of my Bulb tariffs
> 
> The bulb tariffs appear to be over the price cap prices - the Ofgem prices are inclusive of VAT
> 
> ...



Either use the calculator, or manually scroll down and click 'Prices vary per region - see regional direct debit rates and charges' to look at the regional tables on this site, to see if you can make more sense of the amount you are going to pay:



			https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/what-are-the-price-cap-unit-rates-/#tool
		


For example, the South Western region has a pretty high electricity standing charge cap coming in of 52.64p.

Granted many of the above tables are going to show you the cap rates from October onwards, rather than the current rates which presumably you are talking about since your quoted Bulb 28.41p unit rate which correlates with the current cap not the huge looming increase. But the standing charge is only going up approximately 1p so the regional tables for the October increase will probably be enough to explain why you are paying so much currently.


----------



## elbows (Aug 26, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Oooo! I found this - don't know if it's of use to "people" and it would seem that I'm still paying over the odds .01p / KWh and .01p per day standing charge
> 
> Is it worth getting all upset about 0.01p per "thingy" - I shall sleep on it, but, as I'm retired now with fuck all else to do . . .



Oops sorry my previous reply was a bit late and you'd already got your answer.

The table you found is quite handy, would you mind linking to the page you found that one on?


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 26, 2022)

elbows said:


> Oops sorry my previous reply was a bit late and you'd already got your answer.
> 
> The table you found is quite handy, would you mind linking to the page you found that one on?


Got it from here



			https://octoenergy-production-media.s3.amazonaws.com/documents/Ofgem_price_cap_rates.pdf
		


And the Robbing Bastards are, from that table, and MSE still robbing me 0.01p / KWh and similar on the Standing charges - BASTARDS


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 26, 2022)

Bollocks, clipped the bit off the bottom of the page mentioning there maybe some difference due to "rounding" funny how it's always rounded UP in the energy company's favour though, innit


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 26, 2022)

One of the advantages of a smart meter is I can watch my money being almost literally burnt in real time.
This is my electric usage YTD:

This is my gas usage YTD:



Multiply the average by 12 and feed it into Martin Lewis's calculator and we get this.

My actual monthly payment is £210 not £193 but that first figure was calculated last October literally at the same time as my Son and his girlfriend moved out into their own place and Youngest Q left for Uni, which gives me the sinking feeling that at a mere £17 per month I'm not saving myself anything like the money I was smugly kidding myself I was saving by them going.

For those of you thinking about going 'Pay As You Go' and just paying the bills as they fall due as it were note that my gas used in Jan was over 20 times more than in Aug  and my electric more than twice. Not everyone is going to be in the same situation but it is a sobering thought.


----------



## zora (Aug 26, 2022)

I'm just in the process of looking for a new flatmate. So dealing with my own and the collective anxiety of energy crisis and housing crisis combined! Fun!!! (Not.)

After sifting through the 250 responses in two days to our room ad, yesterday was the first day of having 4 people look round - all perfectly lovely people but completely brow-beaten by trying to find a room and clearly already anticipating a rejection, and one offering more money than advertised for the room. I had obviously heard of bidding wars when buying houses or lately, sadly, when renting a whole flat, but not for a room!!!

And the room is fantastic, really big for London, and while the rent price for it is  "reasonable" for London, it is still at the top of a lot of people's budget, but then we are having to say, well, bills could be xxx, and more still soon.


----------



## Petcha (Aug 26, 2022)

zora said:


> I'm just in the process of looking for a new flatmate. So dealing with my own and the collective anxiety of energy crisis and housing crisis combined! Fun!!! (Not.)
> 
> After sifting through the 250 responses in two days to our room ad, yesterday was the first day of having 4 people look round - all perfectly lovely people but completely brow-beaten by trying to find a room and clearly already anticipating a rejection, and one offering more money than advertised for the room. I had obviously heard of bidding wars when buying houses or lately, sadly, when renting a whole flat, but not for a room!!!
> 
> And the room is fantastic, really big for London, and while the rent price for it is  "reasonable" for London, it is still at the top of a lot of people's budget, but then we are having to say, well, bills could be xxx, and more still soon.



Oh I didn't even think of that. You usually see 'bills approx £90 a month' or something. Must be impossible to estimate right now.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 26, 2022)

Martin Lewis says it might be worth going onto the Priority Services Register if you are eligible (certain vulnerabilities etc). This might stop you being cut off for non-payment. But I saw somewhere that even then they might have the power to forcibly install a prepayment meter. Does anyone have any experience of either of these two thing, the register or being forced to have a prepayment meter?


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## Saunders (Aug 26, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Martin Lewis says it might be worth going onto the Priority Services Register if you are eligible (certain vulnerabilities etc). This might stop you being cut off for non-payment. But I saw somewhere that even then they might have the power to forcibly install a prepayment meter. Does anyone have any experience of either of these two thing, the register or being forced to have a prepayment meter?


My in-law on priority services register as they’re both chronically ill, as well as old and living out in the sticks.


----------



## Thistlewaite (Aug 26, 2022)

The rich will be ok and the poor will be shafted?


----------



## alex_ (Aug 26, 2022)

Thistlewaite said:


> The rich will be ok and the poor will be shafted?



When isn’t this true ?


----------



## Thistlewaite (Aug 26, 2022)

alex_ said:


> When isn’t this true ?


Sadly, this is true 😡


----------



## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Every piece of commentary from Zahawi and other Tory talking heads is that stuff must be put in place "so the next Prime Minister can hit the ground running".
> 
> We don't have a government and haven't since June.
> 
> Nationalise the shit out of every energy company, with ZERO compensation above and beyond execs being allowed to keep heads attached to shoulders.  One word of complaint and that compensation no longer applies.


If they keep the cap as it is (or even better reduce it) then the companies would eventually go bust making their shares worthless anyway. Then nationalise them all just like we did with the banks.


----------



## ffsear (Aug 26, 2022)

Could this be an new "Poll Tax" type moment,  where everyone gets involved?   I fucking hope so


----------



## cesare (Aug 26, 2022)

I've just been sorting out the closing of my parents' BG account and the opening of ours, and I needed to amend the readings that they had. They seemed helpful, I'll wait for the outcome on that, but they finished by asking me our age and any disabilities. I said that I didn't think I was "at risk" as far as BG was concerned but she added me anyway. I'll assume that's potentially helpful (she said you can always come off the register if you want). 

Anyway ... within 10 minutes of the call ending I had an email from them to suggest getting a smart meter. What's the view, are they a good thing to have or not?


----------



## magneze (Aug 26, 2022)

No advantage to you. Massive advantage to the energy companies.


----------



## cesare (Aug 26, 2022)

magneze said:


> No advantage to you. Massive advantage to the energy companies.


Oh, thank you!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 26, 2022)

magneze said:


> No advantage to you. Massive advantage to the energy companies.



I totally disagree, to be able to see detailed data on usage, and work out what items are using what electricity, plus never having to piss around submitting meter readings/always having bang up to date and accurate bills, are all advantages to me.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I totally disagree, to be able to see detailed data on usage, and work out what items are using what electricity, plus never having to piss around submitting meter readings/always having bang up to date and accurate bills, are all advantages to me.


Yes but your usage is sent to the cia/mi5/ilumanati etc... who have sinister plans to use that data


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## magneze (Aug 26, 2022)

I could trust the energy companies as much as I can throw them. Being aware of usage rather than letting the energy company do it all for me.

You've been on this thread. Hardly a ringing endorsement for greater control for them.

You want to find out how much energy items use? You can get plugs that do that.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

Must admit i've not checked my smart meter thingys for ages. The novalty of seeing how many pence per hour i was using soon worn off. Although maybe i should start again with these price rises


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 26, 2022)

I don't mind it and it does have some benefit to me, I moved to a smart meter since all the best tariffs they were offering at the time were cognizant on having a smart meter. I suspect those deals aren't on the table anymore. They report your gas and electric usage back in realtime so it meant an end to submitting meter readings myself or making sure that the gate was unlocked when the meter reader came. It usually wasn't so I was forever getting estimated bills and having long boring conversations with someone in a call centre who didn't give a shit and often barely understood me. It came with a dinky little meter that enables us to measure how much energy we were using at a given time and how much a particular appliance was using (though this is easy enough anyway) plus you can check online as well. I wouln't rave over it but for me it has been a slight positive.
It's a much bigger positive for the energy companies of course, they don't have to send someone out to read your meter and they can switch poor payers to prepayment remotely without the need for kicking in doors. 
I didn't know that at the time but I doubt it would have prevented me from switching though. I believe that about 50% of meters are currently smart so it is going to be a while before they start forcing them on the last holdouts but they probably will eventually.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

There is an epetition about nationalising them. Like most epetitions probably a waste of time but only takes a few seconds to do.









						Petition: Nationalise energy companies
					

The Government should take all energy companies back into public ownership to help address the living crisis, as many working people cannot afford it.




					petition.parliament.uk


----------



## two sheds (Aug 26, 2022)

I got a cheap energy meter off ebay (I think) and went round checking what each appliance takes. For fridges and things it shows how much they take over a day. Otherwise I know how much I'm using each so I have a good picture of what I'm consuming.


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## cesare (Aug 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I got a cheap energy meter off ebay (I think) and went round checking what each appliance takes. For fridges and things it shows how much they take over a day. Otherwise I know how much I'm using each so I have a good picture of what I'm consuming.


That's a good idea.


----------



## Bingoman (Aug 26, 2022)

moochedit said:


> There is an epetition about nationalising them. Like most epetitions probably a waste of time but only takes a few seconds to do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Should never been privatise in the first place


----------



## two sheds (Aug 26, 2022)

This looks like the one. You plug it in and it shows the Watts being consumed, press Function and it shows you total kWh since it was plugged in. You normally need a torch to see the display but then easy enough.


----------



## cybershot (Aug 26, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OFGEM has now officially announced the new price cap, up from £1,971 in April, to £3549 from Oct., that's an increase of just over 80%, on top of the 57% back in April.
> 
> That's my monthly DD up from £125 to £225.



Not having a go at you, but I wish media would stop using the average household usage price and use price cap in the same sentence. So many people misunderstand and think that's the maximum they will will have to pay.

The whole price cap thing is worded so badly. 
People will not just die from the cold this winter, they will die from the mental stress of it all on their finances.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 26, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Not having a go at you, but I wish media would stop using the average household usage price and use price cap in the same sentence. So many people misunderstand and think that's the maximum they will will have to pay.
> 
> The whole price cap thing is worded so badly.
> People will not just die from the cold this winter, they will die from the mental stress of it all on their finances.


Problem is the DD estimators seem to understand it the way you don't want it said.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 26, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I totally disagree, to be able to see detailed data on usage, and work out what items are using what electricity, plus never having to piss around submitting meter readings/always having bang up to date and accurate bills, are all advantages to me.



My dad's got one. It's fucking stupid. Put the kettle and the toaster on at the same time and it'll tell you you're spending four quid an hour. Assuming it takes an hour to make tea and toast, which as everyone except for a 'smart meter' knows perfectly well, it doesn't.

Conversely, most appliances have power ratings. If you know that and how long the device is switched on for, you can figure out how much energy it uses. A 'unit' of electricity is a kilowatt hour, so an 800 watt microwave working for quarter of an hour is 0.8kW x 0.25 hours = 0.2 units.

These will only be ballpark numbers, and bear in mind stated input wattages will generally be maximums. Ballpark numbers are still useful though; for example if your favourite gadget uses only 1% as much energy as your fridge, maybe don't fret too much about using it. On the other hand boiling a full kettle every time you make one cup of tea will cost you real money in the long run.


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 26, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> My dad's got one. It's fucking stupid. Put the kettle and the toaster on at the same time and it'll tell you you're spending four quid an hour. Assuming it takes an hour to make tea and toast, which as everyone except for a 'smart meter' knows perfectly well, it doesn't.
> 
> Conversely, most appliances have power ratings. If you know that and how long the device is switched on for, you can figure out how much energy it uses. A 'unit' of electricity is a kilowatt hour, so an 800 watt microwave working for quarter of an hour is 0.8kW x 0.25 hours = 0.2 units.


Most smart meters also give you a running total for the day / week. I find mine very useful. And there are rumours that people will be rewarded for using appliances out of busy periods, something that can only be done via smart meters.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 26, 2022)

lazythursday said:


> Most smart meters also give you a running total for the day / week. I find mine very useful. And there are rumours that people will be rewarded for using appliances out of busy periods, something that can only be done via smart meters.



Yeah my energy company is trying to get me to have one put in, with nebulous promises about using spending less somehow. You'll forgive me for not trusting them on that, particularly in the complete absence of specifics about how I might spend less money.


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 26, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah my energy company is trying to get me to have one put in, with nebulous promises about using spending less somehow. You'll forgive me for not trusting them on that, particularly in the complete absence of specifics about how I might spend less money.



I run my cooker, my fridge/freezer and my lights, I've not exactly forgotten how to turn any of these off and I literally can't turn off the cold storage.

I'll have to cut down PC use and charge my kit at work as much as I can with this shit going on but I don't need a Smart Meter to tell me this.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 26, 2022)

zora said:


> I'm just in the process of looking for a new flatmate. So dealing with my own and the collective anxiety of energy crisis and housing crisis combined! Fun!!! (Not.)
> 
> After sifting through the 250 responses in two days to our room ad, yesterday was the first day of having 4 people look round - all perfectly lovely people but completely brow-beaten by trying to find a room and clearly already anticipating a rejection, and one offering more money than advertised for the room. I had obviously heard of bidding wars when buying houses or lately, sadly, when renting a whole flat, but not for a room!!!
> 
> And the room is fantastic, really big for London, and while the rent price for it is  "reasonable" for London, it is still at the top of a lot of people's budget, but then we are having to say, well, bills could be xxx, and more still soon.


Politicise your inability to pay bills and strategically cancel your direct debit(even if just for 2 weeks) on October the 1st. You know it makes sense. Turn your crisis into a small fire.


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 26, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> I run my cooker, my fridge/freezer and my lights, I've not exactly forgotten how to turn any of these off and I literally can't turn off the cold storage.
> 
> I'll have to cut down PC use and charge my kit at work as much as I can with this shit going on but I don't need a Smart Meter to tell me this.


The point of smart meters in the long term is they can help balance the grid by enabling usage of appliances at cheaper times - eg you charge your electric car when there is excess capacity and get very cheap power - or even get paid to use it. You'll have smart appliances like washing machines that detect when is best to turn on. 

In the shorter term plans are being developed now to mean you benefit from not using much power at peak times: Got A Smart Meter? You Might Soon Get Paid To Use Less Energy. Here's How

Seems daft not to take advantage of this.


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## two sheds (Aug 26, 2022)

lazythursday said:


> The point of smart meters in the long term is they can help balance the grid by enabling usage of appliances at cheaper times - eg you charge your electric car when there is excess capacity and get very cheap power - or even get paid to use it. You'll have smart appliances like washing machines that detect when is best to turn on.
> 
> In the shorter term plans are being developed now to mean you benefit from not using much power at peak times: Got A Smart Meter? You Might Soon Get Paid To Use Less Energy. Here's How
> 
> Seems daft not to take advantage of this.


Perhaps when these things actually happen. Irrelevant to me though since there's no mobile connection where I live.


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 26, 2022)

lazythursday said:


> The point of smart meters in the long term is they can help balance the grid by enabling usage of appliances at cheaper times - eg you charge your electric car when there is excess capacity and get very cheap power - or even get paid to use it. You'll have smart appliances like washing machines that detect when is best to turn on.
> 
> In the shorter term plans are being developed now to mean you benefit from not using much power at peak times: Got A Smart Meter? You Might Soon Get Paid To Use Less Energy. Here's How
> 
> Seems daft not to take advantage of this.



Lot of "might" and "they can" in the benefits there.

Until I demonstrably benefit from something foisted on me I'll pass. Even when these plans come to fruition it'll be fairly useless unless I eat dinner at like 4pm or 10pm.


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## two sheds (Aug 26, 2022)

and easy enough to switch washing machine or car charging on at night


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> and easy enough to switch washing machine or car charging on at night



Do they even still charge you less for overnight electric anymore? Not an option in a flat this size anyway unless I want to listen to the washing machine shake the room at 3am.


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## two sheds (Aug 26, 2022)

lull you off to sleep you mean? 

There is economy 7 still I believe but I never realized the tariff is higher than non-economy-7 during the day.


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## moochedit (Aug 26, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Do they even still charge you less for overnight electric anymore? Not an option in a flat this size anyway unless I want to listen to the washing machine shake the room at 3am.



You mean economy 7. Still going apparently...



			https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/economy-7/


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## Jeff Robinson (Aug 26, 2022)

This is the best these worthless cunts have to offer? Fucking hell


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## Rob Ray (Aug 27, 2022)

Kind of glad the conspiraloon left hasn't picked up on the proximity between working from home becoming a thing and energy prices going stratospheric tbh.









						Why energy prices could kill working from home
					

The new price cap changes the calculation on whether staying at home is still cheaper than going to the office.




					www.newstatesman.com


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> and easy enough to switch washing machine or car charging on at night



Yeah I love trying to sleep with the washing machine going.


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 27, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Kind of glad the conspiraloon left hasn't picked up on the proximity between working from home becoming a thing and energy prices going stratospheric tbh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh I’ve seen it.


----------



## kabbes (Aug 27, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Kind of glad the conspiraloon left hasn't picked up on the proximity between working from home becoming a thing and energy prices going stratospheric tbh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s not really the point, but I think the calculations performed in that article are potentially misleading, in that they only apply to single people. If you cohabit then either one of you is at home anyway, in which case the marginal cost of the second being at home is much smaller, or you both go to work, in which case the commuting costs are doubled.


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## Storm Fox (Aug 27, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Oh I’ve seen it.


I've done the calculation for this for myself, It's about a tankful of petrol a week to go to work. so it will still be cheaper to WFH. I can't use public transport as it takes hours, and I won't want to cycle for 3 hours a day, so my only options are WFH or drive.


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 27, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> This is the best these worthless cunts have to offer? Fucking hell




That's just about ensuring people in NI get the £400 currently in the pipeline off their bills, inline with the rest of the UK, surely that's a good thing?

As we know, soon after the new PM is appointed there will be an announcement on what extra help will be available, sadly I suspect that will be the time to describing them as worthless cunts.


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## kabbes (Aug 27, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> I've done the calculation for this for myself, It's about a tankful of petrol a week to go to work. so it will still be cheaper to WFH. I can't use public transport as it takes hours, and I won't want to cycle for 3 hours a day, so my only options are WFH or drive.


Yeah, it costs me £30 a day to commute, not £13. And that’ll no doubt rise in the new year. By contrast, my full electricity and heating bills will now average out at about £20 per day, and that’s with two of us in the house. If just I go to work, it’s not even close in terms of cost vs saving. I guess that if I lived by myself near to my workplace, it would need cheaper, particularly in the winter months.


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## Jeff Robinson (Aug 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's just about ensuring people in NI get the £400 currently in the pipeline off their bills, inline with the rest of the UK, surely that's a good thing?
> 
> As we know, soon after the new PM is appointed there will be an announcement on what extra help will be available, sadly I suspect that will be the time to describing them as worthless cunts.


What I mean is that, in response to the huge anxiety millions of people are feeling - to a crisis we’ve known about for many months - their front runner for leader is just regurgitating Thatcherite horseshit, leaving them with nothing but these breadcrumb announcements.


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## kebabking (Aug 27, 2022)

Don't know if this has been posted, so apologies if it has, but a twitter thread on the relative costs of electric appliances.

If you can't be arsed to read it: use a slow cooker, get an electric blanket, and don't let your kids spend 20 minutes in the shower. (There will be some _adjustments_ at Chez Kebab...)


----------



## CH1 (Aug 27, 2022)

lazythursday said:


> The point of smart meters in the long term is they can help balance the grid by enabling usage of appliances at cheaper times - eg you charge your electric car when there is excess capacity and get very cheap power - or even get paid to use it. You'll have smart appliances like washing machines that detect when is best to turn on.
> 
> In the shorter term plans are being developed now to mean you benefit from not using much power at peak times: Got A Smart Meter? You Might Soon Get Paid To Use Less Energy. Here's How
> 
> Seems daft not to take advantage of this.


Oh that's what electric cars are about then! So we can have more nuclear power stations and charge our cars at night. A bit like storage heaters used to do before the fad for gas central heating..


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## two sheds (Aug 27, 2022)

or charge during the day if you've got solar panels, that works too


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## MickiQ (Aug 27, 2022)

The last time I did the calculations WFH was saving me £3k a year.
I will have to redo them, the difference may not be that good any more but I'm sure it still favours WFH 
Besides that article completely misses the point that there other advantages of WFH that aren't simply cost related.


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 27, 2022)

Fuck it, I am getting one of these.


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## Indeliblelink (Aug 27, 2022)

I got one earlier in the year. It's pretty good for preventing me having the heating on at home.


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## moochedit (Aug 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Fuck it, I am getting one of these.
> 
> View attachment 339800


Nice


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## two sheds (Aug 27, 2022)

With the number of people breaking bones as they get older I've always fancied one of the Michelin Man suits.


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## teqniq (Aug 27, 2022)

Huge conflict of interest anyone?









						Fears raised that ex-energy bosses ‘sway government policy’
					

Exclusive: Scale of ‘revolving door’ between major energy firms and key Whitehall posts revealed




					www.opendemocracy.net


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 27, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Huge conflict of interest anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even without this it's much easier for the CEO's of big companies to make their voices heard. I'm pretty sure that if the CEO of British Gas wanted to speak directly to the PM all he has to do is get his secretary to phone No 10 and make an appointment.
If I tried that I would probably get a visit from Special Branch. Even with the best will in the world (which there certainly isn't anyway) one side of the argument is being heard a lot more than the other.


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 27, 2022)

Blimey, we're importing Australian gas now, what a weird fucked-up situation. 









						Australian gas ship arrives in Kent
					

The first Australian gas shipment to the UK in six years has been seen arriving in the county.




					www.kentonline.co.uk


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Blimey, we're importing Australian gas now, what a weird fucked-up situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that for Sunak to warm the mansion this winter?


----------



## cybershot (Aug 27, 2022)

Man, some attitudes to smart meters have really changed since this thread: Smart meters for energy


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 27, 2022)

from teh tweeter


----------



## Petcha (Aug 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Fuck it, I am getting one of these.
> 
> View attachment 339800



That does in all seriousness look ideal for festivals. Whack a stadium pal in there too and bobs ya uncle. My tent putting up experiences have been beyond disastrous, the subject of much hilarity amongst my friends (top tip, do it before taking all the drugs and drinking all the beer). This looks ideal.


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 27, 2022)

This is so insane


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## two sheds (Aug 27, 2022)

I hear chippies will be having problems, too


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## stdP (Aug 27, 2022)

Is there anyone that this _isn't_ going to be a huge problem for...? Pubs and restaurants especially are going to be hit with a double whammy of a) forking out double, triple or more for the same energy they used last year whilst b) customers also facing slightly-less-horrendous-bills will still be cutting back on discretionary spending anyway. Running any sort of kitchen is always energy-intensive, and you need to keep the room passably temperate if you want people to eat or drink in it.

The government isn't merely asleep at the wheel on this, it's crashed through the barriers and is already over the cliff and it'll wake up in time to toot the horn indignantly at the upcoming ground whilst bleating about some irrelevant culture war bullshit. Even if we have a very mild winter, households, business and lives are already going to the wall over this. People have been screaming this from the rooftops since the invasion started but westminster seems to be genuinely disinterested other than using the crisis to further its own blinkered agenda (which at the moment seems to be about nothing but keeping the population so desperate and cowed that we'll put up with anything).


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## bluescreen (Aug 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I hear chippies will be having problems, too


Every business that uses energy will be having problems, especially those that use a lot, like hairdressers, butchers, bakers* to say nothing of manufacturing, hospitals, schools, care homes... 

*the candlestick makers may make a comeback.


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## MickiQ (Aug 27, 2022)

stdP said:


> The government isn't merely asleep at the wheel on this, it's crashed through the barriers and is already over the cliff and it'll wake up in time to toot the horn indignantly at the upcoming ground whilst bleating about some irrelevant culture war bullshit.


I am stealing this, using it elsewhere and totally claiming the credit for it. If anyone asks me about it, it will out them as an Urb.


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## oryx (Aug 27, 2022)

stdP said:


> Is there anyone that this _isn't_ going to be a huge problem for...? Pubs and restaurants especially are going to be hit with a double whammy of a) forking out double, triple or more for the same energy they used last year whilst b) customers also facing slightly-less-horrendous-bills will still be cutting back on discretionary spending anyway. Running any sort of kitchen is always energy-intensive, and you need to keep the room passably temperate if you want people to eat or drink in it.
> 
> The government isn't merely asleep at the wheel on this, it's crashed through the barriers and is already over the cliff and it'll wake up in time to toot the horn indignantly at the upcoming ground whilst bleating about some irrelevant culture war bullshit. Even if we have a very mild winter, households, business and lives are already going to the wall over this. People have been screaming this from the rooftops since the invasion started but westminster seems to be genuinely disinterested other than using the crisis to further its own blinkered agenda (which at the moment seems to be about nothing but keeping the population so desperate and cowed that we'll put up with anything).


Yes, if things continue on their current trajectory it will be unsustainable. 

As well as a huge increase in things like elderly people dying of hypothermia and kids being hospitalised with chest infections, and all the other dreadful social effects, businesses will be going to the wall left right and centre. 

Good piece by Aditya Chakrabortty below. He argues (rightly IMO) that we don't have a government at the moment. 









						These are energy bills many Britons simply can’t afford. Some will pay with their lives | Aditya Chakrabortty
					

This price hike threatens to create a whole new class of poor, and it is clear our wretched politics will do nothing to protect them, says Guardian columnist Aditya Chakrabortty




					www.theguardian.com


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## tommers (Aug 27, 2022)

I saw something that said 70% of pubs will go, vast swathes of small businesses, rise in unemployment, defaulting on mortgages etc etc. I really think this is going to make the financial crash look like a walk in the park. 

And meanwhile Liz Truss is going to be in fucking charge.


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## alex_ (Aug 27, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> This is so insane




I don’t get this - British Gas want over 60k a year for 64,000 kw/hrs

You could cover the entire pub in solar panels for less than 90k, and generate most of the power they need - especially because it is a business expense and you could capitalise it over at least 10 years.

For ref - I used a solar calculator from energy saving trust which calculated an 80kw solar system would generate about 64kw solar per year and would cost about 88k. 

Is the break even on solar panels really currently less than 18 months ?

Alex


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 27, 2022)

alex_ said:


> I don’t get this - British Gas want over 60k a year for 64,000 kw/hrs
> 
> You could cover the entire pub in solar panels for less than 90k, and generate most of the power they need - especially because it is a business expense and you could capitalise it over at least 10 years.
> 
> ...


I suspect the landlord was probably just expressing his frustration which is fair enough since that leccy quote is basically just taking the piss. I suspect one of the silver linings of this very dark cloud is those businesses that can do things like this and render themselves at least partly energy self-sufficient will survive and prosper.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 27, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I suspect the landlord was probably just expressing his frustration which is fair enough since that leccy quote is basically just taking the piss. I suspect one of the silver linings of this very dark cloud is those businesses that can do things like this and render themselves at least partly energy self-sufficient will survive and prosper.



I totally agree, also 80k is a fuckload of money for a pub landlord to find.

I suspect a chunk of the 66k is insurance covering all the businesses which will fail owing money.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I hear chippies will be having problems, too


Have to go back to using hand saws.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 27, 2022)

tommers said:


> I saw something that said 70% of pubs will go, vast swathes of small businesses, rise in unemployment, defaulting on mortgages etc etc. I really think this is going to make the financial crash look like a walk in the park.
> 
> And meanwhile Liz Truss is going to be in fucking charge.


They do seem set on creating a perfect storm. And I still bet there are plenty of tory dickheads who say it is a good thing Corbyn didn't win as it would have been bad for the economy.


----------



## stdP (Aug 27, 2022)

oryx said:


> Good piece by Aditya Chakrabortty below. He argues (rightly IMO) that we don't have a government at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think there's much room for any opinion on the matter, as far as this is concerned we either have no government, or a government that either just plain doesn't notice or care or is actively courting disaster and I'm not sure which layer of the shit sandwich is the worst one. The inhumanity of it is far beyond what I expected even the average tory MP to be capable of.



tommers said:


> I saw something that said 70% of pubs will go, vast swathes of small businesses, rise in unemployment, defaulting on mortgages etc etc. I really think this is going to make the financial crash look like a walk in the park.
> 
> And meanwhile Liz Truss is going to be in fucking charge.



Whilst I disagree with the semantics of "in charge", she's sure as shit not going to be cold this winter and I imagine she thinks basking in sovereign ardour will no doubt warm our hearts. The calls for "just buy cheaper food" and "just use less energy" should tell you everything you need to know about how they perceive your typical household; none of it's it's a government problem, it's a problem with the people not acting enough like peasants.



MickiQ said:


> I am stealing this, using it elsewhere and totally claiming the credit for it. If anyone asks me about it, it will out them as an Urb.



As soon as I read my regurgitated verbiage thrown back at me I'm coming after you for a fiver for the server fund, IOUs from Dub not accepted 😠


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 27, 2022)

It just keeps on going upwards... 



Might as well send them magic beans cos I aint paying that much.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 27, 2022)

Crazy stuff. 

Can we live without it? 

Of course such rises will mean everything will go up, so perhaps it won't be possible to escape it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 28, 2022)

have we had this yet?


----------



## weltweit (Aug 28, 2022)

I wouldn't mind a smart meter, at least then I could see where my units are going and do something about it.


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 28, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> have we had this yet?



His horses do need to be kept warm as it's not their fault they are owned him. He shouldn't be allowed heating in his own house though as we all have to cut back where we can.


----------



## Ming (Aug 28, 2022)

I saw a young conservative at conference either this year or last year saying to camera that their intention was to take the country back to the middle ages. Pre-enlightenment. God being the magic of the market place presumably. And CEO's being the high priests. 

And do you know what? I wasn't surprised.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 28, 2022)

What I suspect is there will be panicked, tax or cash incentives for rich, home owners ( tories ) to install solar or other green measures. Especially ones which aren’t directly paid for by the treasury.

An obvious one would be requiring electricity suppliers to pay domestic solar customers more for   electricity feed in ( the excess power generated ) as this doesn’t cost government anything.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2022)

Another obvious one would be for electricity companies to upgrade customers' house insulation for them, to be repaid from say half of the lower bills until the money's repaid when the customers keep all of the savings.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Aug 28, 2022)

weltweit said:


> Of course such rises will mean everything will go up


Except wages.

Which, as others have pointed out, would mitigate things because people would use higher wages to _buy things from each other._


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 28, 2022)

Once pubs and shops go out of business they'll be snapped up cheap by speculators, turned into housing and then it will become impossible to ever change them back into pubs or shops.

As always, profiteering twats who are already rich will make a fortune through all this, while actual jobs disappear forever.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Aug 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Once pubs and shops go out of business they'll be snapped up cheap by speculators, turned into housing and then it will become impossible to ever change them back into pubs or shops.
> 
> As always, profiteering twats who are already rich will make a fortune through all this, while actual jobs disappear forever.


Yup, was thinking exactly the same when reading the comments above.

It's so hard to avoid thoughts that most of us are simply screwed from multiple angles


----------



## LDC (Aug 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Once pubs and shops go out of business they'll be snapped up cheap by speculators, turned into housing and then it will become impossible to ever change them back into pubs or shops.
> 
> As always, profiteering twats who are already rich will make a fortune through all this, while actual jobs disappear forever.



Yeah, I was talking to someone about that yesterday. Some people and companies are going to make a load of money out of all the failing businesses, it'll make plenty of high streets and town centres even more dominated by chains, charity and pawn shops, and boarded up places.

The local very small specialist ale bar and shop that's run as a labour of love by 2 brothers and is a great hassle free and friendly place announced they're likely to be going under last week due to energy bills. Don't imagine anyone will take on the space for the forseeable future.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Once pubs and shops go out of business they'll be snapped up cheap by speculators, turned into housing and then it will become impossible to ever change them back into pubs or shops.
> 
> As always, profiteering twats who are already rich will make a fortune through all this, while actual jobs disappear forever.




Sad thing is most pub are already either balls deep in debt to brewers or already run by speculative arseholes


----------



## teqniq (Aug 28, 2022)

Good Law Project weighs in:


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 28, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Good Law Project weighs in:




Day with a Y and good law project is suing someone.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Aug 28, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Sad thing is most pub are already either balls deep in debt to brewers or already run by speculative arseholes


Let's hear it once more for the free market, everyone! Huzzah!


----------



## CH1 (Aug 28, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah, I was talking to someone about that yesterday. Some people and companies are going to make a load of money out of all the failing businesses, it'll make plenty of high streets and town centres even more dominated by chains, charity and pawn shops, and boarded up places.
> 
> The local very small specialist ale bar and shop that's run as a labour of love by 2 brothers and is a great hassle free and friendly place announced they're likely to be going under last week due to energy bills. Don't imagine anyone will take on the space for the forseeable future.


----------



## elbows (Aug 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Blimey, we're importing Australian gas now, what a weird fucked-up situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasnt that surprised because its happened before. Once north sea gas production had gone past its peak and declined, coupled with the UK deciding to make LNG an important part of its gas plans, and deciding not to bother maintaining a healthy gas storage capacity, this sort of thing was expected. And periods of certain market conditions will influence which countries we get LNG supplies from. And I believe Australia is one of the very major LNG exporters, along with Qatar and the USA.

For example here is an article from 2009 discussing the first ever Australian LNG cargo to have the UK as its destination. On that occasion the market conditions which enabled it were a reduction of demand from the Asian nations which were the usual customers for Australian LNG. UPDATE 1-Australian LNG cargoes head to UK, France in May

Articles about the Australia shipment we've received in August are widely reporting that its the first time we've received any LNG from Australia since 2016. I havent yet established why we stopped gettting LNG from them in the intervening period, but it might be that the USA started its own LNG shipments in 2016 and so we were getting all our LNG from USA and Qatar during that period.

I cant say I'm overjoyed about all this stuff, I dont think our energy situation is very secure, and a lot of the planning was based on certain assumptions about globalisation that are increasingly at odds with the way this century is progressing in practice. I'd have preferred us to adopt an approach that drank less market-based kool aid, one that placed more emphasis on gas storage and also an earlier and quicker transition away from gas once our own production went past its peak. And I'll probably grumble for the rest of my life that we squandered lots of opportunities to start building housing stock that was actually fit for the circumstances of the future much earlier.

Here is an example of why a global market based approach to securing supplies when needed can go wrong. On its own this sort of situation doesnt break things, so this article can still feature reassuring noises about global supplies not being badly affected. But its not so hard to imagine that when you end up with lots of these sorts of situations all over the place at the same time, UK planning assumptions can start to end up looking at odds with reality.









						Top LNG exporter Australia is told to keep more fuel at home
					

Australia should tighten measures to curb natural gas exports from one of the world’s biggest suppliers to avoid a domestic fuel crunch, according to the




					www.energyvoice.com
				






> Australia should tighten measures to curb natural gas exports from one of the world’s biggest suppliers to avoid a domestic fuel crunch, according to the nation’s competition watchdog.



Here is an example from earlier this year of the sort of pressures the system is under and dramatic changes to supply destinations that are being seen:









						Europe's scramble for LNG leaves Asia starving for energy
					

Gas shipments once bound for Asia are being redirected to Europe, where Russia's war in Ukraine is driving up LNG prices.




					www.eenews.net
				






> Asia has been the top destination for American LNG cargoes since the United States began shipments in 2016. South Korea has accounted for 14.4 percent of U.S. LNG exports since that time, followed by Japan (10.5 percent) and China (8.7 percent), according to Energy Department figures.
> 
> But recent months have seen dramatic changes in LNG flows. Gas shipments to China, Japan and Korea were down 11 percent, 14 percent and 7 percent, respectively, in the first quarter compared with the same time last year, said Valery Chow, an analyst who tracks the industry at Wood Mackenzie.


And here is a UK government document from June which describes the 2021 LNG picture, including:



			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1086525/Supply_of_Liquefied_Natural_Gas_in_the_UK__2021.pdf
		




> In 2021, UK LNG imports fell in comparison with those recorded in 2020 as prices reached record highs. LNG accounted for 17 per cent of the gas supplied to the UK through production and imports, down from 22 per cent in 2020.
> 
> The UK was the third largest LNG importer in Europe in 2021. Qatar was the largest import source to the UK, accounting for 39 per cent of LNG imports, with a further quarter of imports coming from the USA. Increased Asian demand also led the UK to source cargoes from further afield, for example Peru.


That document is a reasonable primer if you are interested in the background, who the global LNG producers are, etc.


----------



## elbows (Aug 28, 2022)

That last document I mentioned also has some interesting graphs in it, such as the following one.

As you can see the decline in domestic gas production was not subtle, and a combination of pipelines, LNG and reduction in demand was used to compensate.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2022)

who could have predicted that decline in production?


----------



## alex_ (Aug 28, 2022)

two sheds said:


> who could have predicted that decline in production?



I’m sure it won’t take the tories long to blame labour


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2022)

woke cancel culture that they couldn't open more gas fields


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 28, 2022)

two sheds said:


> who could have predicted that decline in production?



Private Eye was highlighting gas and energy issues as far back as 2015 if I remember rightly.

We’ve been a couple of weeks from fucking disaster for a while now and with the shock of the Ukrainian war hitting globally we are fucked.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 28, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Private Eye was highlighting gas and energy issues as far back as 2015 if I remember rightly.
> 
> We’ve been a couple of weeks from fucking disaster for a while now and with the shock of the Ukrainian war hitting globally we are fucked.



If you look at the graphs - the exposure started to get risky when demand stopped falling.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 28, 2022)

alex_ said:


> If you look at the graphs - the exposure started to get risky when demand stopped falling.




Storage has been the main problem for some time. The free market was supposed to supply things just in time forever which lol


----------



## alex_ (Aug 28, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Storage has been the main problem for some time. The free market was supposed to supply things just in time forever which lol



The free market is supplying things just in time - it’s just at a cost no one can afford !


----------



## CH1 (Aug 28, 2022)

alex_ said:


> The free market is supplying things just in time - it’s just at a cost no one can afford !


Is that why they sold off the gas holders for scrap and built yuppy flats?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 28, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Is that why they sold off the gas holders for scrap and built yuppy flats?



Yes. Although outside of central London most of the land they used to occupy has been left derelict.

And I actually quite like those gasometer flats behind St Pancreas


----------



## CH1 (Aug 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes. Although outside of central London most of the land they used to occupy has been left derelict.
> 
> And I actually quite like those gasometer flats behind St Pancreas


I liked the title of this exhibition at The Gasworks gallery (The Oval SE11) that I applied for a job there.





						Exhibitions | Gasworks
					






					gasworks.org.uk
				



Completely inappropriate of course - I was an engineer retrained as a book-keeper.
Part of the job was assessing "Commonwealth" artists - in situ - for grants.
I expect they thought Uncle Bob (Mugabe) might take exception to me!


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 28, 2022)

two sheds said:


> yes, why do they not quote figures in kWh?



Or something useful that people know like how much they pay each month*.  I have no idea what I was paying per kWh or how many I use and that doesn't cover standing charges. 

*no,  not everyone pays by monthly dd but lots do.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 28, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Do they even still charge you less for overnight electric anymore? Not an option in a flat this size anyway unless I want to listen to the washing machine shake the room at 3am.


I'm on an economy 7 tariff, but the washing machine uses little enough power that it's not worth the bother.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 28, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I'm on an economy 7 tariff, but the washing machine uses little enough power that it's not worth the bother.


Must use a lot when it heats the water on the wash cycle.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 28, 2022)

What can I do without?

I suppose I will always need the fridge. 

Lights I can cut right down on. 

Need the computer a bit but could cut down. 

The cooker and microwave are electric, hmm .. got to eat ..

Washing machine I am already using at a minimum.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 28, 2022)

weltweit said:


> What can I do without?
> 
> I suppose I will always need the fridge.
> 
> ...


Heat Bro you need to eat more than you need to heat so off with the heating maybe burn the odd book once in a while (seriously on what fucking planet are these people?)
for a special treat.


----------



## stdP (Aug 28, 2022)

weltweit said:


> What can I do without?
> 
> I suppose I will always need the fridge.
> 
> ...



In my household at least, heating and cooking are by far the biggest power draws with the fridge and washing machine being in the middle ground. The gas boiler itself uses about 200W when the central heating is on for pumping the water about. The TV uses about 70W when it's on, the washing machine uses about 0.6-0.7kWh for a 40deg wash, depending on the ambient temperature. Next on my list to replace is the fridge since it's not a very efficient model, but as it's integrated in to the crappy fitted kitchen it'd essentially mean replacing the whole kaboodle. The kettle pulls nearly 3kW by itself so of course the old adage of only boiling the amount you need helps (and if you're making tea you can get away with heating to 90 or 80), as does switching off the kettle once you can see/hear it boiling, rather than waiting for it to do so automatically.

If you've not done so already and are in a position to do so, replacing CFL lightbulbs with LED equivalents pays for itself in a few months (depending on your lighting usage of course). My kitchen and bathroom were each rigged out about nine with halogen spots each, each one consuming 50-60W (and pumping out a shitload of heat which mostly ended up in the loft); LED replacements use 5W each (and provide a more even light so I've even unscrewed a couple). ROI on that was about a couple of weeks, years ago.

Think it was mentioned in the smart meter thread - I don't have one (don't see the point), but have used plug power monitors and a current clamp since before smart meters were a thing to get a fair idea of the power used throughout the house. Probably the only thing we can realistically cut down on that'll make any amount of difference is the amount of cooking we do, but there's already a lot of people for whom hot meals are becoming an increasingly rare "luxury".

Of course, the above is all fairly standard obvious household efficiency fare. To make a real different what you should probably start doing is switch to supermarket's own-brand caviar and champagne, stop buying those £50 avocado lattes, and dial down the heating in the swimming pool to 25deg; then you'll have oodles of spare money for the energy companies' offshore accounts.


----------



## wow (Aug 28, 2022)

weltweit said:


> What can I do without?
> 
> I suppose I will always need the fridge.
> 
> ...


What’s your income?


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 28, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Heat Bro you need to eat more than you need to heat so off with the heating maybe burn the odd book once in a while (seriously on what fucking planet are these people?)
> for a special treat.


Stock pile conservative manifestos.


----------



## bcuster (Aug 28, 2022)




----------



## WouldBe (Aug 28, 2022)

stdP said:


> Probably the only thing we can realistically cut down on that'll make any amount of difference is the amount of cooking we do, but there's already a lot of people for whom hot meals are becoming an increasingly rare "luxury".


I remember the power going of one Xmas dinner time. Fortunately the turkey was cooked. Mum used the gas poker in the front room to finish off cooking something in a pan while dad went into the garden and made a fire and finished something else off in pans.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 28, 2022)

"You tell that to young people today, and they won't believe you"


----------



## weltweit (Aug 28, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Heat Bro you need to eat more than you need to heat so off with the heating maybe burn the odd book once in a while (seriously on what fucking planet are these people?)
> for a special treat.


I only rarely turn the heating on, it is very expensive. 
Main CH is gas but I have some electric heaters.
The house is very under insulated to I just heat the air above me.  
I tend just to put on more clothes.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 28, 2022)

wow said:


> What’s your income?


Not enough!


----------



## weltweit (Aug 29, 2022)

There must be a way to turn the tables. 

Gas cooker upstairs, I only use it for the boiler to heat the shower. A shower can't use much gas.


----------



## stdP (Aug 29, 2022)

weltweit said:


> A shower can't use much gas.



There's a lot of variation here dependent on a variety of factors (temperature of the incoming water being the biggest for me, but you also need to find out how much water your shower head puts out per minute) but for the sake of argument a 10-minute shower uses about 6kWh to heat the water which I think works out to about 50 or 60p for me. Last I looked an electric shower was at least twice that.

Shower heat exchangers can help make use of a lot of the waste heat instead of it going literally down the drain, but they're comparatively rare and difficult to retrofit - I think I've only seen one in germany and the netherlands.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 29, 2022)

I'm strongly suspecting gas to reach parity prices with electric soon which is going to be... Not good.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 29, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Must use a lot when it heats the water on the wash cycle.


It doesn't heat it that hot. 30C, I think. I do occasionally run it through a high-temperature cycle (empty), but it so happens that I've tended to do those at night.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 29, 2022)

bcuster said:


>




That doesn't make sense, if they were paying £130 in Feb., plus 54% increase in April, they would be paying £200 now, +80% in Oct. takes it to £360. 

My first thought was perhaps they came off a fixed price deal in March, but that doesn't work, because it would have had to be a deal offering over half price bills, i.e. even if you start at £260 in Feb., it would still be only be £400 now, or, they were under paying by over half back in Feb., which seems unlikely.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 29, 2022)

Still thinking of buying a socialist kettle. This is in Argos for £18. One reviewer said "sturdy kettle, unlike some.." another "the handle gets too hot to handle, it boils water...that's it really" another "good whistle but takes longer to boil than an electric kettle" 

There is a competitor for £8.99 from OnBuy.com. I like the gay purple colour, but the spout looks like it's paid a visit to an American circumcision clinic

I feel a bit trepidacious about parting with  £8.99 to an unknown internet vendor in Manchester - but there again I bought a Digiview remote control from a similar establishment "for a friend" and it worked! He was delighted.
Any views?


----------



## teqniq (Aug 29, 2022)

Cross posted from the sewerage thread as it's relevant to both:

Oh look what a surprise:

Former government adviser calls for overhaul of UK utilities regulators


----------



## two sheds (Aug 29, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Still thinking of buying a socialist kettle. This is in Argos for £18. One reviewer said "sturdy kettle, unlike some.." another "the handle gets too hot to handle, it boils water...that's it really" another "good whistle but takes longer to boil than an electric kettle"
> View attachment 340145
> There is a competitor for £8.99 from OnBuy.com. I like the gay purple colour, but the spout looks like it's paid a visit to an American circumcision clinic
> View attachment 340146
> ...


gas hob?


----------



## CH1 (Aug 29, 2022)

two sheds said:


> gas hob?


Unfortunately I removed the remnants of the servant bell system and the gas lights when I moved into my 1868 Brixton home 38 years back. Would have come in handy for gaslighting!


----------



## two sheds (Aug 29, 2022)

I was wondering because if you've got gas then it doesn't matter if there's a lip round the bottom of the kettle as there can be. Electric plates need a flat bottom arf arf. 

I once had a copper ship's kettle which was lovely but leaked


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 29, 2022)

i'm not much of a scientist, but can't see that boiling a kettle on an electric hob is going to be more energy efficient than using an electric kettle, and possibly less so as you'll be heating the hob as well


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 29, 2022)

For some strange reason installation of domestic solar panels has tripled recently.


----------



## zora (Aug 29, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> For some strange reason installation of domestic solar panels has tripled recently.



My dad got in there in spring, just before some crucial parts became unavailable. He just plonked them down on the balcony and plugged them into the socket with some sort of converter. And then proudly showed off to me how the electric meter was standing still when I visited in August, powering at the very least the fridge and the electricity for the heating system and whatever standby-modes of appliances (I can't remember if TV and/or PC were also on at the time). Apparently he has also seen it run backwards on occasion.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 29, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i'm not much of a scientist, but can't see that boiling a kettle on an electric hob is going to be more energy efficient than using an electric kettle, and possibly less so as you'll be heating the hob as well


I can't see anyone buying a hob kettle for electric - unless they have an induction hob which might be quite efficient.
The current range of Chinese electric kettles with concealed elements seem like a bad idea to me. But where is  Russell Hobbs? China - that's where: Russell Hobbs Snowdon 1.7L Brushed Stainless Steel Kettle - country of origin and manufacturing locations | ProductFrom.com


----------



## two sheds (Aug 29, 2022)

Hob kettle makes sense if the cooker's on for another reason - either space heating, cooking or both.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 29, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> For some strange reason installation of domestic solar panels has tripled recently.



Which they may regret later... 






						Homeowners trapped by 25-year solar panel contracts | Energy bills | The Guardian
					

Householders who lease their roofs to power firms find it hard or costly to move home




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## two sheds (Aug 29, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Which they may regret later...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep that's always been a bad deal.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 29, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Which they may regret later...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And not a option for many, in particular for people who rent or live in a flat. Who tend the be those struggling the most. It is the same with insulation. Anything to make these things easier and cheaper just favors those who are already better off.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 29, 2022)

emanymton said:


> And not a option for many, in particular for people who rent or live in a flat. Who tend the be those struggling the most. It is the same with insulation. Anything to make these things easier and cheaper just favors those who are already better off.



I am bloody lucky with my landlords, this place already had the walls & roof insulated, just after I moved in 8-9 years they had new double glazing fitted, and over tomorrow & Wed. my 30+ year old boiler is being replaced with a modern combi boiler, which should save 20-30% is usage according to the CH company, although one website seems to think it could be up to 40%.


----------



## elbows (Aug 29, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Cross posted from the sewerage thread as it's relevant to both:
> 
> Oh look what a surprise:
> 
> Former government adviser calls for overhaul of UK utilities regulators



Part of that article mentions the need to decouple the electricity price from the gas price, and I note that such demands are growing much louder amongst EU leaders too:









						EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
					

Calls mount for an EU-wide cap on the price of gas and for it not to dictate the price of electricity.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## magneze (Aug 29, 2022)

Why are they coupled?


----------



## alex_ (Aug 29, 2022)

magneze said:


> Why are they coupled?



Because gas is used to generate a lot of electricity.


----------



## stdP (Aug 29, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Because gas is used to generate a lot of electricity.



For those who don't know the site already, the excellent GridWatch gives a mostly-real-time picture of what's being used to generate however much electricity at any given moment. CCGT (Combined Cycle Gas Turbine) is currently generating ~15GW, approx. 50% of the total grid demand of ~30GW.






						G. B. National Grid status
					






					www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 29, 2022)

elbows said:


> Part of that article mentions the need to decouple the electricity price from the gas price, and I note that such demands are growing much louder amongst EU leaders too:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why can't the bright sparks in charge here do that? 

Although if we had bright sparks in charge electric would be virtually free.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 29, 2022)

What I’m not totally clear on is why nuclear and renewable generators who have flat costs get paid the same rate as gas generators whose price is set by the price of gas.

I think this is what they mean by decouple


----------



## two sheds (Aug 29, 2022)

Sounds reasonable? Renewables particularly have very low running costs.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 29, 2022)

stdP said:


> For those who don't know the site already, the excellent GridWatch gives a mostly-real-time picture of what's being used to generate however much electricity at any given moment. CCGT (Combined Cycle Gas Turbine) is currently generating ~15GW, approx. 50% of the total grid demand of ~30GW.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I find this one more readable -









						National Grid: Live
					

Shows the live status of Great Britain’s electric power transmission network




					grid.iamkate.com
				




I see wind is just over 9% ATM, that's been around 3-4% over the few days, which doesn't help.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 29, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I find this one more readable -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



recent auctions mean another 7gw of wind will come online over the next few year - apparently they are aiming for 50gw of wind by 2030.

Though it’ll be more like 25gw at any one time.

Interestingly this is probably the one thing the tories haven’t fucked up over the last few years.



The U.K. is now paying less for new renewables than it does for new nuclear (2.5x less) and it did for gas when gas was cheap.


----------



## wow (Aug 30, 2022)

weltweit said:


> Not enough!


My advice, for what it’s worth.

Heat yourselves. Not your home. It’s a lot cheaper. Layer up. Jumpers, quilts, duvets. Wrap up indoors.  

Also, you probably won’t die from a cold water wash in the bathroom with a sponge and some shower gel.

Then, buy cheap, nutritious food. Carrots, onions, potatoes, swede, broccoli, frozen fish fingers. You can feed 3 people for a quid with those things…and it’s healthy and hearty. 

Finally, keep something left over for a treat. A pound is enough to get the kids some crayons and maybe some chocolate. 

A small treat, once a week, will keep your spirits up. Don’t neglect yourself.


----------



## bcuster (Aug 30, 2022)

Just got my electric bill for last month. One months usage, average size single family home; average temperature 81F: $178 or 152 British pounds


----------



## High Voltage (Aug 30, 2022)

My electric bill for last month was £69 give or take. It was, somehow, a 32 day period. Two adults at home all the time and whilst AC would've been nice we don't have it so were hot


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 30, 2022)

alex_ said:


> The U.K. is now paying less for new renewables than it does for new nuclear (2.5x less) and it did for gas when gas was cheap.



Not sure this is very significant. When it's not windy, other sources will be at a premium because with little wind there will be fewer generating resources. However wind generators don't get to auction their electricity at such advantageous times when there are deficits of other sources, so they will on average attract a lower price. If renewable generators could store their energy it would be a different matter of course...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 30, 2022)

Storage is certainly something that is needed, wind can be so unreliable, we've had a number of days where it was only producing 3-5% of electric, somwhat better this morning at 16.5%.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 30, 2022)

bcuster said:


> Just got my electric bill for last month. One months usage, average size single family home; average temperature 81F: $178 or 152 British pounds


You must be using air conditioning?


----------



## teqniq (Aug 30, 2022)

Energy firms refusing to supply small UK businesses over bankruptcy fears


----------



## CH1 (Aug 30, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Energy firms refusing to supply small UK businesses over bankruptcy fears


The government now own an energy company - Bulb.
They should make it the supplier of last resort, so it has to supply people being tuned down by the biggies.
This type of policy has worked in personal finance:
GLC used to give you a mortgage if Abbey National etc refused
Tony Benn's National Girobank never refused a customer!

Same thing with several rail companies - and buses
The Mayor of London had their own bus company (East Thames Busses) due to several franchises going bust in the early days. Brixton residents might remember blue 196 buses with no safety screens for the drivers - this was Cityrama in the heyday of Thatcherism. This route passed through several dud operators - including Connex - before finally landing safely with London General in 2006.
Another celebrity bus crash in south London was Easylink, who ran the 42 and the 185. It was reported that on 21st August 2002 when Easylink went into liquidation passengers were kicked off their buses in mid journey. East Thames Buses had to rescue those routes.

Accounts know the value of money - but have no decency.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Storage is certainly something that is needed, wind can be so unreliable, we've had a number of days where it was only producing 3-5% of electric, somwhat better this morning at 16.5%.


Solar's been good though?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 30, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Solar's been good though?



Yep, when the sun gets going, it's been around 20% at noon, but only 4% ATM.









						National Grid: Live
					

Shows the live status of Great Britain’s electric power transmission network




					grid.iamkate.com


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2022)

Demand reduction and demand shifting would help. Nuclear's really expensive and takes years to come on line.


----------



## alex_ (Aug 30, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Not sure this is very significant. When it's not windy, other sources will be at a premium because with little wind there will be fewer generating resources. However wind generators don't get to auction their electricity at such advantageous times when there are deficits of other sources, so they will on average attract a lower price. If renewable generators could store their energy it would be a different matter of course...



They are only paid for power actually delivered though, and at 2.5x cheaper than nuclear - we can have afford over capacity if required. You are correct about storage though, batteries are falling in price but still more expensive than nuclear currently.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2022)

alex_ said:


> They are only paid for power actually delivered though, and at 2.5x cheaper than nuclear - we can have afford over capacity if required. You are correct about storage though, batteries are falling in price but still more expensive than nuclear currently.


I gather there are safety issues with the mega batteries proposed by the solar farmers?
Certainly I've been aware of the way that the Cleve Hill (anti-solar farm) campaigners have used the fire/explosion risk as a strand of their objection.


Can't see why the old pumped storage (hydro) schemes couldn't soak up the energy produced on sunny days to release on cloudy ones?


----------



## kabbes (Aug 30, 2022)

Yeah, I also don’t get why they don’t make more of pumped storage.I guess it requires a whole  separate hydroelectric infrastructure, which probably doubles the price and land needed.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Yeah, I also don’t get why they don’t make more of pumped storage.I guess it requires a whole  separate hydroelectric infrastructure, which probably doubles the price and land needed.


Oh yeah, the solar farmers don't want anything to do with nasty infrastructure costs; the Cleve Hill mob are only there to cover good agri/arable fields because the infrastructure is already there for the turbine array cable land-fall.

That said, i always though the pumped storage schemes were there to balance up the whole grid so, as a contributor to the grid, why couldn't solar generated power be stored that way with the massive (dangerous?) lithium ion kit?


----------



## existentialist (Aug 30, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Yeah, I also don’t get why they don’t make more of pumped storage.I guess it requires a whole  separate hydroelectric infrastructure, which probably doubles the price and land needed.


Dinorwig cost £475m in 1974 (so about £3bn in today's money).

I also note the lack of convenient mountains to hollow out in the Kent area...


----------



## CH1 (Aug 30, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I gather there are safety issues with the mega batteries proposed by the solar farmers?
> Certainly I've been aware of the way that the Cleve Hill (anti-solar farm) campaigners have used the fire/explosion risk as a strand of their objection.
> 
> View attachment 340303
> Can't see why the old pumped storage (hydro) schemes couldn't soak up the energy produced on sunny days to release on cloudy ones?


Where do you suggest that would be then? Clearly this sort of thing works in Wales, Scotland Norway (all of which are NOT England - take back control etc). 
Thames Water closed the high level reservoir top of Brixton Hill to offer much-needed Yuppy Flats.
Apparently TW no longer need reservoirs - they have a high power "ring-main"

But it's not just high level reservoirs - you need a large lower reservoir too. And a (very) steep incline.
Where are these all available in the Home Counties - not adjacent to nimby planning nuts?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Dinorwig cost £475m in 1974 (so about £3bn in today's money).
> 
> I also note the lack of convenient mountains to hollow out in the Kent area...


But Dinorwig wasn't there just to soak up power generated in that part of N. Wales, was it?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 30, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Yeah, I also don’t get why they don’t make more of pumped storage.I guess it requires a whole  separate hydroelectric infrastructure, which probably doubles the price and land needed.



But we also need more drinking water capacity. A functioning government would be able to put two and two together on this and invest in facilities that can do generation, energy storage and water storage. Good luck waiting for the private sector to do it; water companies get paid for doing nothing and power companies can charge a higher price when energy is scarce.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 30, 2022)

brogdale said:


> But Dinorwig wasn't there just to soak up power generated in that part of N. Wales, was it?


No, it isn't. But the number of sites available to build future Dinorwigs is, by their very nature, limited.

And I think there's something else - Dinorwig was commissioned by the CEGB, a nationalised infrastructure organisation. Our fragmented, short-termist industry isn't going to be interested in sinking billions in something like this while there are cheaper (albeit potentially more dangerous) options out there, like battery storage.


----------



## kabbes (Aug 30, 2022)

How close to the production site does the pump storage site need to be?  Couldn’t you site it up in the highlands of Scotland or the Peak District or somewhere else with a lot of natural gradient?


----------



## CH1 (Aug 30, 2022)

kabbes said:


> How close to the production site does the pump storage site need to be?  Couldn’t you site it up in the highlands of Scotland or the Peak District or somewhere else with a lot of natural gradient?


Good job there's a national grid isn't it? Who owns that then?


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 30, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Dinorwig cost £475m in 1974 (so about £3bn in today's money).
> 
> I also note the lack of convenient mountains to hollow out in the Kent area...


Not enough water to fill it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 30, 2022)

kabbes said:


> How close to the production site does the pump storage site need to be?  Couldn’t you site it up in the highlands of Scotland or the Peak District or somewhere else with a lot of natural gradient?



The further you have to transfer electricity, the less efficient that transfer is.

The same is not true of transferring water under pressure however. No reason water storage and hydroelectric generation need to be in the same place...


----------



## kabbes (Aug 30, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> The further you have to transfer electricity, the less efficient that transfer is.
> 
> The same is not true of transferring water under pressure however. No reason water storage and hydroelectric generation need to be in the same place...


That’s really interesting.  So are you suggesting that the surplus power could be used to pump water from local reservoirs to wherever the hydroelectric generation is?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 30, 2022)

kabbes said:


> That’s really interesting.  So are you suggesting that the surplus power could be used to pump water from local reservoirs to wherever the hydroelectric generation is?



And that stored water pressure could be used to generate current where it's needed rather than where the water is stored. We already move water around everywhere using the siphon principle anyway.

Honestly that just popped into my head, I've no idea if it's feasible but also, I can't really see why it isn't. Moving water using GPE is not actually 100% efficient of course but it's a lot more efficient than moving electric current.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2022)

UHV transmission has been used to transmit power over 2000 km for 10 years in China.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 30, 2022)

two sheds said:


> UHV transmission has been used to transmit power over 2000 km for 10 years in China.



But is it likely to be much use for a grid supporting a large number of intermittent, low output renewable energy sources? 

Genuine question btw.


----------



## bcuster (Aug 30, 2022)

CH1 said:


> You must be using air conditioning?


Yes. Most homes in my area are a/c


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> But is it likely to be much use for a grid supporting a large number of intermittent, low output renewable energy sources?
> 
> Genuine question btw.


you may be right - I think they use it for transmitting hydro power


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 30, 2022)

two sheds said:


> you may be right - I think they use it for transmitting hydro power



Which makes sense. China is a big place and has lots of very big hydro dams, which (and my knowledge of Chinese geography is pretty non-existent) are presumably not where most of the population is. 

The UK is small, and has an order of magnitude fewer people in it. Also it's not a dictatorship and we can't just decide to flood the whole of Derbyshire for hydro power. So we're likely to need lots of small things for generation and storage if we're ever going to get away from burning stuff for energy. I do think there's a lot of potential for joined-up thinking involving both water and power infrastructure. Some of this might be possible via retrofitting instead of building completely new stuff which we are, in this century at least, pretty fucking shit at.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2022)

Could be useful for connecting up large numbers of remote onshore or offshore wind turbines I'd have thought, also hydro in 'mountainous' areas.


----------



## Storm Fox (Aug 30, 2022)

two sheds said:


> UHV transmission has been used to transmit power over 2000 km for 10 years in China.


In New Zealand they use HV DC. I was driving along and noticed the pylon one had two main cables.

They also use SWER too, Single Wire Earth Return (SWER) | Engineering New Zealand just one wire and using earth as the return.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 30, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yep, when the sun gets going, it's been around 20% at noon, but only 4% ATM.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m off grid on my boat, we have a solar set up of 750w whichisn’t much based on house standards. Panels were about £300 (plus we have some spares, we have broken a couple before) . The controller was the most money £500. They have paid for themselves about twice , now.  To get the same output in midwinter vs midsummer I’d need 10 x the amount of panels. Not enough space on my roof!  I’d still recommend them to anyone - if you’re on a budget Bimble Solar are great. It’s not hard to DIY a set up.  Our panels were bought as deadstock/ joblot from them, we drove down there and bought as many as we could carry. We’re getting better batteries this month, lithium ones will mean we get more charge in the late autumn and spring, I’m hoping this’ll mean I can run my fridge freezer all year, it’s a mate of mine who sells the batteries - he says I should be able to cut my diesel use by 75% this winter. Seeing as we were spending £40 a week on diesel in the 6 weeks of midwinter that’ll help the budget.  We’ve also got a couple of gennies, a hefty Yanmar Diesel one that was a boat engine (kept at my dads) and a Honda one that runs on petrol that I need to get serviced. El jugs has always said, come the apocalpse we’ll be sorted and I thought he was exaggerating but, fucking hell how much do things turn on the head of a pin? Oh I’ve also got a Rutland wind genny that’s in storage at my dads, but they’re no good unless you live in a seriously windy exposed place, I used to turn it off so I could sleep as it’s really noisy.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 30, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Still thinking of buying a socialist kettle. This is in Argos for £18. One reviewer said "sturdy kettle, unlike some.." another "the handle gets too hot to handle, it boils water...that's it really" another "good whistle but takes longer to boil than an electric kettle"
> View attachment 340145
> There is a competitor for £8.99 from OnBuy.com. I like the gay purple colour, but the spout looks like it's paid a visit to an American circumcision clinic
> View attachment 340146
> ...


Buy one of the fast boil ones with holes around the bottom of the rim like this vintage copper kettle. fast boil gasThe economics  | eBay sort of thing you’ll find at a car boot


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 30, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> I’m off grid on my boat, we have a solar set up of 750w *which isn’t much based on house standards. *



And, a standard house set-up will not be much compared with what Radio Caroline is planning at their AM transmitter, which uses about 10Kw per hour 24/7, luckily they have a massive roof area and plenty of surrounding space, it'll the first transmitter site in the UK to have a massive solar array.

Being run by volunteers and mainly listener funded, they will be trying to get a decent discount from a company in return for advertising, and they raised about £70k from their recent annual fund raising weekend, with half going to maintaining their ship, and half for the solar project, should be interesting to see how much that £35k budget gets them.


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## CH1 (Aug 30, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> Buy one of the fast boil ones with holes around the bottom of the rim like this vintage copper kettle. fast boil gasThe economics  | eBay sort of thing you’ll find at a car boot


It's possible I've got one of those knocking around - loft? Don't remember throwing it out.
But I don't remember much these days! I ordered the £8.99 one - due to arrive 3rd-9th Sept (post permitting I guess)


----------



## bcuster (Aug 30, 2022)

Problem solved?









						This Ultra-White Paint May Someday Replace Air Conditioning
					

Developed by researchers at Purdue University, the paint reflects 98.1 percent of sunlight




					getpocket.com


----------



## moochedit (Aug 30, 2022)

bcuster said:


> Problem solved?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe in hot countries. In the uk our problem is being too cold in winter not too hot in summer.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 30, 2022)

bcuster said:


> Yes. Most homes in my area are a/c


I am guessing your heating bills in winter are lower than ours though.


----------



## bcuster (Aug 30, 2022)

moochedit said:


> I am guessing your heating bills in winter are lower than ours though.


we'll compare this winter. i switched from oil to natural gas two years. i had noticed very good savings last year. the first year i wondered if  i had made a mistake.

heating oil is almost $6/gallon here now. i know some folks with oil heat who are dreading their heating bills this coming season.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 30, 2022)

bcuster said:


> Problem solved?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I have unconsciously benefited the other way round. My house has a massive south-east facing elevation which someone tastefully covered in rendering painted chocolate brown. No doubt the fact people say "Your house is so warm in winter" might be due to enhanced sunlight absorption as much as central heating?


----------



## CH1 (Aug 30, 2022)

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse - thought about your Sky TV/Virgin TV/Broadband/phone/mobile?








						Up to 25%: Consumers face TV, broadband and phone bill shock | RXTV info
					

Mobile phone, broadband and pay TV customers could face bill increases of up to 25% in the new year as a result of increases to energy prices.




					rxtvinfo.com


----------



## moochedit (Aug 30, 2022)

I just logged into my ovo account and they are increasing my DD from £163 a month to £273 a month. That's combined gas and electricity.


----------



## scifisam (Aug 30, 2022)

I've asked EDF to reduce my DD to £192pm. It's been £240 for the past two months. We do use a lot of energy - two people who are at home nearly all the time, and my daughter is extremely wasteful - and we can reduce it somewhat. We have to or I'm going to go broke.

Unfortunately the change in rules for the warm home discount mean I'm no longer eligible. It used to be based partly on income and partly on whether you had a disability that meant you used more electricity (I do). But I'm not low income enough on £26k (in London) and disability no longer makes you eligible - it's income only. My daughter would be eligible - I'm going to look into whether it's worth naming her as the account holder. Might be too late for it to help now.


----------



## xenon (Aug 30, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Maybe in hot countries. In the uk our problem is being too cold in winter not too hot in summer.



40 degree summers....


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 30, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I am bloody lucky with my landlords, this place already had the walls & roof insulated, just after I moved in 8-9 years they had new double glazing fitted, and over tomorrow & Wed. my 30+ year old boiler is being replaced with a modern combi boiler, which should save 20-30% is usage according to the CH company, although one website seems to think it could be up to 40%.


You will certainly get a massive saving, When we had the extension built 20 years ago, the old style open pressure boiler which had been in the house since it was built had to come out (not least because the wall it was attached to got knocked down) 
It was replaced with a combi condensing boiler which despite having to drive an extra 4 radiators still managed to drop gas consumption by 30%. (we had the house insulated at the same time) That boiler itself was replaced 3 years ago with the current super whizzy Worcester Bosch and that has driven gas consumption down again though nothing like that first drop.


----------



## xenon (Aug 30, 2022)

** Stupid question **

There aren't any solar panel things you can get to run from inside a flat window are there? Because of the UV filtering in glass?

I saw zora's post earlier and wondered how much in square metres her dad must be using to get a significant amount of solar power on his balcony. Obviously that's outside but I didn't think you'd have enough space, watts per square metre sort of thing but I know the tech has improved.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 30, 2022)

xenon said:


> 40 degree summers....


Yeah but we only hit 40c for about 2 days this year and that was not normal for the uk. We certainly don't get enough days over 30c to justify the cost of having home air con in this country.


----------



## prunus (Aug 30, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Yeah but we only hit 40c for about 2 days this year and that was not normal for the uk. We certainly don't get enough days over 30c to justify the cost of having home air con in this country.



Yet.


----------



## bcuster (Aug 31, 2022)




----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 31, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> You will certainly get a massive saving, When we had the extension built 20 years ago, the old style open pressure boiler which had been in the house since it was built had to come out (not least because the wall it was attached to got knocked down)
> It was replaced with a combi condensing boiler which despite having to drive an extra 4 radiators still managed to drop gas consumption by 30%. (we had the house insulated at the same time) That boiler itself was replaced 3 years ago with the current super whizzy Worcester Bosch and that has driven gas consumption down again though nothing like that first drop.



Oh, that's good to hear, they have installed the 'current super whizzy Worcester Bosch' boiler here.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 31, 2022)

I’ve heard nothing from eon.next so far, I have power of attorney for my father, I deal with the bills. When the direct debit goes up in October, his pension won’t cover it, he has no overdraft facility and no credit cards or anything like that, I had it removed a couple of years ago when he got into debt, between us 3 siblings, we paid it off.

What do folks think, am I in my rights to ask them to keep the direct debit the same?

We know that a debt is likely to build up, but my brother told me he’d be able to pay it off. Dad has rheumatoid arthritis. My parents have definitely cut down their energy use, we got rid of an old fridge freezer, that took £20 off the bills per month, they use ipads for entertainment, big telly stays off, don’t use oven anymore, stuff like that. It’s heating the house that I’m concerned about, the temperature dropped a little bit this week and he’s already in pain. 91 year olds can’t sit in the cold. Dad built this house, it’s big and the main living space is open plan, what are we supposed to do, build walls so we can heat one bit?


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## CH1 (Aug 31, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Oh, that's good to hear, they have installed the 'current super whizzy Worcester Bosch' boiler here.


Yes well, I partially agree with MickiQ on this. 10 years ago my traditional boiler conked out after 24 years faithful service. I had been minded to have a combi in 1988, but the CH engineer I used had strong views against. In 2012 there was a problem for me in that all boilers were now condensing boilers - due to 2 Jags "scrappage" scheme - and I could not get a boiler to fit into the existing space under the 40 gallon hot water cylinder in the downstairs toilet. So the only practical solution was to strip out the 2 cold water tanks in the roof, and the 40 gallon hot water tank at ground floor level and replace with a COMBI.

The one favoured by my (new) CH engineer was 28kW - by British Gas standards probably under-powered for the size of the house, but seems to work fine.

DOWNSIDE: water flow in the bathroom (3rd floor) is miserly. No chance of a shower. Not that I want to have one - I just wait 15 minutes to fill the bath. My Ghanaian lodger feels like its home from home - he uses a bucket to shower in the traditional manner. As regards economy going forward I intend to revert to Elizabethan standards, and only take a bath once a year - if necessary.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 31, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> I’ve heard nothing from eon.next so far, I have power of attorney for my father, I deal with the bills. When the direct debit goes up in October, his pension won’t cover it, he has no overdraft facility and no credit cards or anything like that, I had it removed a couple of years ago when he got into debt, between us 3 siblings, we paid it off.
> 
> What do folks think, am I in my rights to ask them to keep the direct debit the same?
> 
> We know that a debt is likely to build up, but my brother told me he’d be able to pay it off. Dad has rheumatoid arthritis. My parents have definitely cut down their energy use, we got rid of an old fridge freezer, that took £20 off the bills per month, they use ipads for entertainment, big telly stays off, don’t use oven anymore, stuff like that. It’s heating the house that I’m concerned about, the temperature dropped a little bit this week and he’s already in pain. 91 year olds can’t sit in the cold. Dad built this house, it’s big and the main living space is open plan, what are we supposed to do, build walls so we can heat one bit?



not sure i know what to suggest as regards the energy companies, but just wondering (appreciate you may already have done this) whether it's worth investigating if parents are entitled to pension credit (it's like the old supplementary pension - it's not 'credit' as in a loan) and / or attendance allowance for disability?

age uk website has more on these


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 31, 2022)

A slight bit of good news this morning.



> The day-ahead UK wholesale gas price tumbled by more than 20% to 447p per therm on Tuesday, while the month-ahead contract dropped by a quarter, to 473p per therm.
> 
> Prices eased from near record highs but are still 12 times higher than at the start of 2021, before the energy crisis began.





> The German economy minister Robert Habeck said he expected gas prices to fall soon as Germany, Europe’s largest gas consumer, was making progress on its storage targets and would not have to pay the high asking prices to continue replenishing stocks.











						Wholesale gas prices tumble as Europe prepares to intervene in energy markets
					

European Commission says it is working ‘flat out’ on emergency intervention and on longer-term structural reform




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Aug 31, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> A slight bit of good news this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Somebody didn't welcome the news...


----------



## ska invita (Aug 31, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Somebody didn't welcome the news...
> 
> View attachment 340395


Fair play to whoever found this photo to illustrate that with


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 31, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Somebody didn't welcome the news...
> 
> View attachment 340395



Yeah, they announced a couple of weeks ago that they would switch it off for 3 days for maintenance, the fear is they will not switch it back on.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 31, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yeah, they announced a couple of weeks ago that they would switch it off for 3 days for maintenance, the fear is they will not switch it back on.


and fear can drive markets


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 31, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Oh, that's good to hear, they have installed the 'current super whizzy Worcester Bosch' boiler here.


They're very reliable to boot (well mine is at least) the only problem I have had with it in 3 years wasn't actually the boiler, the condensate pipe feeds into the plumbing under the sink in the downstairs khazi and the sink was blocked. The condensate backed up and the boiler shut down as a safety measure. Even cleverer since it has BoilerIQ it called up British Gas and told them it wasn't working and they texted me to tell me that the boiler wasn't working.
I couldn't unblock the sink myself so DynaRod came round with the biggest plunger I have ever seen in my life to unblock it and it started up again.


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 31, 2022)

EON quoted  a rise from £69 per month to £267 per month if I fix. MSE are saying don't fix with an offer it it's £145% more than you pay now. My maths isn't great but that seems more. I used their calculator thing, but I think I need to sit down and look at it on a computer. EON also don't see to have accurate end of year usage on bills so will need to look at that. 

The non fix is £127, but I'm guessing that will rise later in the year and then we'd be fucked.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 31, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> EON quoted  a rise from £69 per month to £267 per month if I fix. MSE are saying don't fix with an offer it it's £145% more than you pay now.



That's an increase of over 285%. 

That's assuming what you are currently paying is about correct.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 31, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> I’ve heard nothing from eon.next so far, I have power of attorney for my father, I deal with the bills. When the direct debit goes up in October, his pension won’t cover it, he has no overdraft facility and no credit cards or anything like that, I had it removed a couple of years ago when he got into debt, between us 3 siblings, we paid it off.
> 
> What do folks think, am I in my rights to ask them to keep the direct debit the same?
> 
> We know that a debt is likely to build up, but my brother told me he’d be able to pay it off. Dad has rheumatoid arthritis. My parents have definitely cut down their energy use, we got rid of an old fridge freezer, that took £20 off the bills per month, they use ipads for entertainment, big telly stays off, don’t use oven anymore, stuff like that. It’s heating the house that I’m concerned about, the temperature dropped a little bit this week and he’s already in pain. 91 year olds can’t sit in the cold. Dad built this house, it’s big and the main living space is open plan, what are we supposed to do, build walls so we can heat one bit?


It's got to be worth asking they all spout this 'Contact Your Supplier If You Are Having Trouble Paying Your Bill,  We are Here to Help' guff. Your Dad has got to be a genuine case surely if he isn't then I don't know who is.


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 31, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's an increase of over 285%.
> 
> That's assuming what you are currently paying is about correct.



Thanks! I think I am paying the right amount as when my Tarrif ends I won't owe any money.

I reckon they've overestimated my Gas usage to be honest. Will take a deeper look at it.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 31, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> Thanks! I think I am paying the right amount as when my Tarrif ends I won't owe any money.
> 
> I reckon they've overestimated my Gas usage to be honest. Will take a deeper look at it.



Oh, hang on, do you mean you are currently on a fixed deal that's coming to an end?

If so, that throws things out completely, as the new fixed price deal would be based on the current standard rates, plus extra based on future possible increase, if that makes sense.

.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 31, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> not sure i know what to suggest as regards the energy companies, but just wondering (appreciate you may already have done this) whether it's worth investigating if parents are entitled to pension credit (it's like the old supplementary pension - it's not 'credit' as in a loan) and / or attendance allowance for disability?
> 
> age uk website has more on these


We got attendance allowance and that fortunately covered the previous bill rises. I’m looking into carers allowance, now but I suspect their pensions are ‘too good’ to entitle them to any more cash.


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 31, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Oh, hang on, do you mean you are currently on a fixed deal that's coming to an end?
> 
> If so, that throws things out completely, as the new fixed price deal would be based on the current standard rates, plus extra based on future possible increase, if that makes sense.
> 
> .


Yeah ends in October which is beautiful timing. The new rate is their cheapest fixed deal.  MSE agreed it was to high when I ran it through their calculator, but I'm going to double check it.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 31, 2022)

Question for anyone who has both a battery and an iboost immersion diverter. Normally we set the iboost to come on for an hour boost at 7am. After that we just let it top up with any excess power it can grab. That works out fine, in the summer at least. But what should we do if we go away for a while? We had a three week holiday back in June, turned the iboost off and turned it back on on our return. No point in heating a hot water cylinder for three weeks. What if it was only one week, or a long weekend? At what point is it better to leave the iboost on rather than turning it off? Any ideas welcome.


----------



## chainsawjob (Aug 31, 2022)

chainsawjob said:


> Haven't posted on this thread before as we've been on a 2 year fixed tariff of £120 pm (4 bed semi, 3-4 occupants), but this is now ending. We're with So Energy. They've removed the option to choose another fixed deal (because, they say, prices are likely to fluctuate for the foreseeable i.e. rise), and when your current fixed tariff ends, you go onto their Flex rate, which they say is 'relatively low'.
> 
> Just got the quote, and our new monthly DD will be £196, which doesn't seem too bad compared to the rises some people have had. Still, £76 extra a month to find though, not an inconsiderable amount.


Well, I thought the new DD amount of 196 was going to start in July. But now both July's and August's payments have been taken, on the 25th of the month, and they've only taken 120 (can't find the pound sign on this wifi keyboard). 

Have they forgotten?!? 🤞


----------



## chainsawjob (Aug 31, 2022)

CH1 said:


> This is the British approach to business. Remember when Abbey National tried to turn itself into a coffee shop - then got taken over by Santander?
> Ovo is now turning itself into a bank. They are clearly doing better than the Halifax - maybe I can transfer in my 0.5% ISA?


We had this idea with Ovo too! But switched from them a couple of years ago as we could get a better deal elsewhere.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 31, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> We got attendance allowance and that fortunately covered the previous bill rises. I’m looking into carers allowance, now but I suspect their pensions are ‘too good’ to entitle them to any more cash.



i'd say if in doubt, claim

alternatively, have a play with the turn2us benefits calculator






						Turn2us Benefits Calculator
					

Use the Turn2us Benefits Calculator to find out which welfare benefits you may be entitled to.




					benefits-calculator.turn2us.org.uk
				




it's anonymous, but you will need real numbers for income / savings

for some things, getting AA will bump up other benefits (i'm too long out of the game now to be sure)

also worth seeing if they qualify for council tax benefit.  again, if in doubt, claim


----------



## pinkmonkey (Aug 31, 2022)

Thanks we'll do this


----------



## wow (Aug 31, 2022)

Be realistic. You can’t talk yourself out of this, so: 

My electricity bill has just tripled: how about yours? Alternative suppliers?


----------



## CH1 (Sep 1, 2022)

From the Torylaugh:
Gazprom hands Kremlin £8.5bn dividend after record profit​State-owned energy giant’s shares soar by 20pc as global surge in gas prices nets it a half-year profit of £36bn


----------



## CH1 (Sep 1, 2022)

wow said:


> Be realistic. You can’t talk yourself out of this, so:
> 
> My electricity bill has just tripled: how about yours? Alternative suppliers?


So now I have a use for those multi-coloured Jamaican string vests I bought in the 1990s - use them as vests!


----------



## CH1 (Sep 1, 2022)

Phew! Germany is going to be OK then..








						Gas prices plunge as Germany closes in on storage targets
					

Gas prices have fallen sharply today amid reports Germany is on course to meet its gas storage targets for October.




					www.cityam.com


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 1, 2022)

With my old boiler it was costing about 50p a day to heat the hot water tank for a shower, washing-up & hand washing during the course of the day, the new combi boiler was installed on Monday, and yesterday it only used 8p in gas. So that should save around £150 a year at current prices and well north of £250 when the Oct. price hike comes in, this pleases me no end!

It's just a question of keeping heating costs under control now, which should be easy enough now that I have my new space suit sleeping bag onesie.


----------



## alex_ (Sep 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> With my old boiler it was costing about 50p a day to heat the hot water tank for a shower, washing-up & hand washing during the course of the day, the new combi boiler was installed on Monday, and yesterday it only used 8p in gas. So that should save around £150 a year at current prices and well north of £250 when the Oct. price hike comes in, this pleases me no end!
> 
> It's just a question of keeping heating costs under control now, which should be easy enough now that I have my new space suit sleeping bag onesie.
> 
> View attachment 340575



The thing which is fucked about this is that the ROI in this is probably 5 to 8 years.

The energy companies should have been finding people in smallish houses without combi boilers and giving them installed combi boilers.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> With my old boiler it was costing about 50p a day to heat the hot water tank for a shower, washing-up & hand washing during the course of the day, the new combi boiler was installed on Monday, and yesterday it only used 8p in gas. So that should save around £150 a year at current prices and well north of £250 when the Oct. price hike comes in, this pleases me no end!
> 
> It's just a question of keeping heating costs under control now, which should be easy enough now that I have my new space suit sleeping bag onesie.
> 
> View attachment 340575


It will save you money when you're running the CH as well, it's the condensing bit not the combi bit that is the real money saver. A second heat exchanger recovers waste heat from the exhaust gas and uses it to heat the CH water before the burner chamber gets it. If it's the same as mine (Worcester Bosch Greenstar) it should have a button labelled ECO on it. If you press this and the word ECO appears on the display it has disabled the pre-heat for hot water. You will have to wait a bit longer for hot water when you run the tap but it means it won't kick in during the day to keep it hot so you don't have to wait.
Cool suit by the way and cool glasses you got them from Boots didn't you, I used to have exactly the same style.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 1, 2022)

Just looked at our seasonal gas usage. In the summer we use around 1 kWh/day for cooking and hot water, rising to 6 kWh/day if there's lots of showers/baths etc going on.

In winter it's around 85 kWh/day with the heating on. So over 90% of our gas usage is heating. Last winter it was £2.10/day, next winter it will be £12.80/day.

Underlines for us at least that piddling about with hot tap use or whatever is pretty meaningless. It's all about the radiator temperature. Also doesn't really matter what gas tarrif we're on outside of the winter months.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 1, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> If it's the same as mine (Worcester Bosch Greenstar) it should have a button labelled ECO on it. If you press this and the word ECO appears on the display it has disabled the pre-heat for hot water. You will have to wait a bit longer for hot water when you run the tap but it means it won't kick in during the day to keep it hot so you don't have to wait.



It is a Greenstar, and the engineer set it to ECO for that very reason, explaining it will increase water use a bit, but as that's a lot cheaper than gas it's worth it.

However, as it's next to the kitchen sink there's no waste in filling the sink as it starts running hot fairly quickly, so what cold water runs out first means using less from the cold water tap to get the right temperature for washing up. Takes somewhat longer to get to the shower, but I am catching the cold water in a bucket to use for flushing the loo.  



> Cool suit by the way and cool glasses you got them from Boots didn't you, I used to have exactly the same style.



Not sure about that TBH. 

Glasses came from Tesco, they were cheaper than Boots or Specsavers before they sold off their opticians.


----------



## zora (Sep 1, 2022)

I just figured out our energy usage (with a slight hiccup before realising that gas units on the meter do not equal kwh...).
A bit shocked to find that our 3 person household used more in 2021 than is quoted as average for a 4-5 person household.

While this equated in my flatshare to £35 per person per month, I didn't really feel the need to consider our energy use much, but now it's obviously different.

I do hope that we can make some fairly easy savings. For the last two years with this usage, one person was either on furlough or permanently wfh during the winter months; and while I was on furlough during that long harsh winter lockdown, having a nice toasty home was one of the few pleasures in life, so the heating was on pretty much round the clock.

From this autumn, we'll all be working outside the home most of the time; my flatmate who is wfh is moving out. She also has a penchant for really long showers and baths (think 1-2 hours of running hot water, per day). And while, as platinumsage says, this amounts to a much smaller fraction compared to heating use than I thought, it should still make a difference. 

Also need to have a think about how to keep the heat in. The flat is very poorly insulated, with large single-glazed, rickety-at-the-edges sash windows. A thermal curtain for the especially gappy living room window might be a start.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 1, 2022)

the acrylic sheets held in by magnetic strips work well for me, stops the draughts if it fits well and gives a warmer surface. Easy enough to fit, too.

Eta with the heavy curtains too.


----------



## zora (Sep 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> the acrylic sheets held in by magnetic strips work well for me, stops the draughts if it fits well and gives a warmer surface. Easy enough to fit, too.
> 
> Eta with the heavy curtains too.


That is a good tip, will look into it.


----------



## prunus (Sep 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> the acrylic sheets held in by magnetic strips work well for me, stops the draughts if it fits well and gives a warmer surface. Easy enough to fit, too.
> 
> Eta with the heavy curtains too.



Acrylic (well PET) sheets seconded.  I have used these people several times, would recommend: Magnetic Secondary Double Glazing | Magneglaze®


----------



## mentalchik (Sep 1, 2022)

Just feeling a little tickle of anxiety....am on a fixed rate till April, pay quarterly bills which i have no trouble in splitting if it's a bit big (they have a message service for this)..my last bill (a few weeks ago) had actually gone down by £130, so i feel like i'm in a weird bubble at the moment


----------



## two sheds (Sep 1, 2022)

prunus said:


> Acrylic (well PET) sheets seconded.  I have used these people several times, would recommend: Magnetic Secondary Double Glazing | Magneglaze®


Any benefit of getting it from single supplier? Worth checking prices though, I've been ordering from a local company that seemed to do really good prices, and get magnetic strips off ebay.

Ah they supply the mag strips ready attached? That would indeed be handy although generally easy enough to fit.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2022)

We’re fine too. Bought a new kettle recently.


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## alex_ (Sep 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Any benefit of getting it from single supplier? Worth checking prices though, I've been ordering from a local company that seemed to do really good prices, and get magnetic strips off ebay.
> 
> Ah they supply the mag strips ready attached? That would indeed be handy although generally easy enough to fit.



I’ve used these guys before they can cut sizes to the mm and provide edging






						Secondary Glazing, Cut Polycarbonate Sheet and Draught Excluders from the Easyfix DIY range
					

Every product illustrated with clear text and drawings, with videos that show the product and how to install it using everyday tools. Buy online today!




					www.secondarydiyglazing.com


----------



## two sheds (Sep 1, 2022)

alex_ said:


> I’ve used these guys before they can cut sizes to the mm and provide edging


Ah edging looks really good, ta, tempted to try it. I'm having to replace/reglue adhesive strip for a couple of windows anyway.


----------



## alex_ (Sep 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Ah edging looks really good, ta, tempted to try it. I'm having to replace/reglue adhesive strip for a couple of windows anyway.



Now with link !


----------



## two sheds (Sep 1, 2022)

alex_ said:


> I’ve used these guys before they can cut sizes to the mm and provide edging
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thermal imager would be fun, cheapest is about £60 though and very low res so not sure how useful that would be. Renting would seem sensible cos you'd only really need to use it once during a cold snap, but that looks like £80 for four days.


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Thermal imager would be fun, cheapest is about £60 though and very low res so not sure how useful that would be. Renting would seem sensible cos you'd only really need to use it once during a cold snap, but that looks like £80 for four days.


Quite a lot of councils / community organisations are buying and renting out thermal imaging cameras now, worth checking locally.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 1, 2022)

Ta - good idea will check, I'd imagine a few neighbours might be interested, too, so share costs.


----------



## weltweit (Sep 1, 2022)

What pisses me off is that there is no reference on my receipt as to how many electricity units my pounds have bought.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Eta with the heavy curtains too.


Use an old quilt should work quite well.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 1, 2022)

zora said:


> I just figured out our energy usage (with a slight hiccup before realising that gas units on the meter do not equal kwh...).
> A bit shocked to find that our 3 person household used more in 2021 than is quoted as average for a 4-5 person household.
> 
> While this equated in my flatshare to £35 per person per month, I didn't really feel the need to consider our energy use much, but now it's obviously different.
> ...


You used to be able to get kits for perspex secondary double glazing. Is this still a thing - or are we too rich to bother - until now?


----------



## magneze (Sep 1, 2022)

If electricity prices are decoupled from gas and your supplier is 100% renewables (eg: Bulb) then prices should come down quite a bit?


----------



## two sheds (Sep 1, 2022)

Don't think so, I think they're tied to the price of gas too for some strange reason, by government edict.


----------



## moochedit (Sep 2, 2022)

Why is gas measured in "kilowatt hours"?


----------



## two sheds (Sep 2, 2022)

It's also measured in therms, or British Thermal Units (BTUs). The metric equivalent is kWh with 1 therm = about 30 kWh. Measuring in kWh also gives a comparison with electrical energy so is useful that way - tells you how many kW delivered over how many hours.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 2, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Why is gas measured in "kilowatt hours"?



A Watt is a measure of how much energy something transfers per second. So if you multiply watts by time you get a unit of energy. One kWh is 3.6 million joules.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 2, 2022)

magneze said:


> If electricity prices are decoupled from gas and your supplier is 100% renewables (eg: Bulb) then prices should come down quite a bit?



It's not really 100% renewables, it's a kind of jiggery-pokery.

If it was that easy everyone could switch to a 100% renewable tariff and get cheaper electricity, and all the gas and coal power stations could then be permanently closed.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 2, 2022)

Most suppliers claim renewable energy but only purchase certificates and don't actually generate the energy. Good Energy, Green Energy and Ecotricity are the exceptions I know of. 


> There are only 3 suppliers in the UK that supply energy which is 100% generated from renewables: these are Ecotricity; Good Energy, and Green Energy UK. These suppliers have a permanent derogation from the Ofgem Cap. To be awarded a derogation the supplier has to demonstrate, inter alia, that:
> 
> The cost to the licensee of supplying electricity/gas by virtue of the tariff is materially greater than the level of the default tariff cap for reasons that are directly attributable to the support that the tariff provides to renewable energy.











						Eon Next - 100% Renewable Energy
					

Eon state they are 100% Renewable energy so why are my energy bills going up 3 fold from October if they are using Renewable energy.




					forums.moneysavingexpert.com
				




which is why their prices are higher.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 2, 2022)

Even if go full renewables then you still need to deal with gas (and Britain is a nation that relies heavily on gas boilers for hot water and heating) 

It’s one of those things I’m going to have deal with when I actually move into new place… how to swap out the flats gas supply.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 2, 2022)

After just over 7 months, and 10 days after ombudsman's deadline, it's finally over!

All SSE bills from when OVO took over, i.e. all of 2020 & 2021, plus all this years bills issued after I was transferred over to the OVO system have been re-issued, and all seem about right, and a final additional credit has been made to my account, so my balance now stands at just over £700, despite the fact that my DD payments have only been £1pm per month recently.

I am so relieved!


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Most suppliers claim renewable energy but only purchase certificates and don't actually generate the energy. Good Energy, Green Energy and Ecotricity are the exceptions I know of.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Regardless of what your energy company claim you will get your electricity from the nearest power station regardless of how they produce it.


----------



## Thaw (Sep 2, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Phew! Germany is going to be OK then..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gas Infrastructure Europe has a nice website if you're interested in storage levels...


			Gas Infrastructure Europe - AGSI+


----------



## two sheds (Sep 2, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Even if go full renewables then you still need to deal with gas (and Britain is a nation that relies heavily on gas boilers for hot water and heating)
> 
> It’s one of those things I’m going to have deal with when I actually move into new place… how to swap out the flats gas supply.


Yep, and I think even the suppliers of renewables have to actually buy energy from the grid which is why their prices have gone up, too. Green Energy apparently supplies renewable gas and Ecotricity are soon planning to as well.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 2, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Regardless of what your energy company claim you will get your electricity from the nearest power station regardless of how they produce it.


I have my own personal electrical line from the windfarm  

It does make a fucking mockery of privatization though, along with water and rail among others.


----------



## alex_ (Sep 2, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Phew! Germany is going to be OK then..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the Germans ( or anyone else ) having full storage - will reduce Europe wide peak winter prices, so it is good news.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 2, 2022)

Some of this here please:


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 2, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Some of this here please:



That won't keep them warm for long.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 2, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> That won't keep them warm for long.


 I get mine as emails so I would have to print them off to burn them.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 3, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> That won't keep them warm for long.



It’s Naples, they don’t need to keep warm.


----------



## BigMoaner (Sep 3, 2022)

WTF just checked by gass and electric online dashboard thing and I am 514 in debit???

I have hardly been here for months, and the heating hasn't been on for months. What's going on? I pay 66 a month for a 1 bedroom flat. panciky!


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 3, 2022)

BigMoaner said:


> WTF just checked by gass and electric online dashboard thing and I am 514 in debit???
> 
> I have hardly been here for months, and the heating hasn't been on for months. What's going on? I pay 66 a month for a 1 bedroom flat. panciky!



Is the 514 debt based on actual meter readings?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 3, 2022)

BigMoaner said:


> WTF just checked by gass and electric online dashboard thing and I am 514 in debit???
> 
> I have hardly been here for months, and the heating hasn't been on for months. What's going on? I pay 66 a month for a 1 bedroom flat. panciky!



Are you with OVO by any chance? 

Being serious, you need to check your actual usage compared to what they are charging you.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 5, 2022)

The press seems to have been briefed to expect a energy price freeze, which would seem the most logical thing to do.



> Senior Tories lined up for appointments in Truss’s cabinet have been told “in no uncertain terms” not to scorn the idea that energy bills could be frozen.
> 
> Industry sources said that a price freeze for consumers was “the only conversation that anyone was having with the government”, including discussions involving Kwasi Kwarteng, who is expected to be Truss’s chancellor.
> 
> “The plan is to introduce some kind of artificial price cap for consumers combined with a mechanism for reimbursing suppliers,” one source said. “Plans are reasonably well advanced and involve not just civil servants but also ministers lined up for jobs by Truss.”





> The level of the price cap has not been set and businesses, particularly hospitality and retail, would need separate support, the source added.
> One senior government figure said the scale of the package being looked at would “at least” be in the region of the £69 billion cost of furlough scheme and “could be more”. “No one has come up with any option to do it for less,” the source said.



That could easily be paid for by the forecasted £170bn excess profits that energy producers are expected to make over the next two years.

Times paywall busted link - archive.ph


----------



## kabbes (Sep 5, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That could easily be paid for by the forecasted £170bn excess profits that energy producers are expected to make over the next two years.


Is that £170bn excess profit all related to business transacted in the UK?  If not, there isn’t any mechanism for taxing it without ripping up all the agreements on how international trade is taxed, which (a) no government would ever do, and (b) could well hurt us more than help us, as (for example) the US could do tit-for-tat in respect of all US-domiciled companies doing business in the UK.


----------



## Smangus (Sep 5, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Is that £170bn excess profit all related to business transacted in the UK?  If not, there isn’t any mechanism for taxing it without ripping up all the agreements on how international trade is taxed, which (a) no government would ever do, and (b) could well hurt us more than help us, as (for example) the US could do tit-for-tat in respect of all US-domiciled companies doing business in the UK.



I'm sure it will be some fudge presented as a triumph, but in reality we all end up paying for over the next 20 years or so. Or something like that.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 5, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Is that £170bn excess profit all related to business transacted in the UK?  If not, there isn’t any mechanism for taxing it without ripping up all the agreements on how international trade is taxed, which (a) no government would ever do, and (b) could well hurt us more than help us, as (for example) the US could do tit-for-tat in respect of all US-domiciled companies doing business in the UK.



Good question, and it's not very clear from this article, but it implies it would be on UK operations. Clearly with that level of excess profits the treasury will be getting a massive boost in revenue from taxes, including the existing windfall tax, anyway. 



> UK gas producers and electricity generators may make excess profits totaling as much as £170 billion ($199 billion) over the next two years, according to Treasury estimates that lay bare the revenue-raising potential of a windfall tax.
> 
> Treasury officials will deliver the assessment to the next prime minister when they take office on Sept. 6, according to a person familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified discussing internal calculations.
> 
> The prediction is likely to fuel further calls for increasing the existing windfall tax on oil and gas production in the UK, and extending it to power generators that have so far been exempt. Tax at the current windfall rate of 25% could generate tens of billions of pounds if the excess profits for 2023 and 2024 come in at the top of the Treasury forecast.





> The government considered and rejected extending the windfall tax to electricity generators profiting because rising gas prices have also pushed up the price of power those generators can charge. Some of those companies have reported rising profits even in cases where they have produced less energy.











						UK Sees Up to £170 Billion Excess Profits for Energy Firms
					

UK gas producers and electricity generators may make excess profits totaling as much as £170 billion ($199 billion) over the next two years, according to Treasury estimates that lay bare the revenue-raising potential of a windfall tax.




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## BigTom (Sep 5, 2022)

Worth noting that: 



> The Treasury analysis suggests about two fifths of the £170 billion in excess profits would be attributable to power producers, suggesting extension of the windfall tax could be lucrative for the government coffers.



so that £170bn does include excess profits made by wind/solar/hydro/nuclear whose costs have not increased but whose income has risen in line with the rise in cost of gas generation, although the government decided not to include them in the current windfall tax.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Is that £170bn excess profit all related to business transacted in the UK?  If not, there isn’t any mechanism for taxing it without ripping up all the agreements on how international trade is taxed, which (a) no government would ever do, and (b) could well hurt us more than help us, as (for example) the US could do tit-for-tat in respect of all US-domiciled companies doing business in the UK.


the set of 'things no government would ever do' is much smaller now than it was a few years ago. and it may become smaller yet.


----------



## Supine (Sep 5, 2022)

BigTom said:


> Worth noting that:
> 
> 
> 
> so that £170bn does include excess profits made by wind/solar/hydro/nuclear whose costs have not increased but whose income has risen in line with the rise in cost of gas generation, although the government decided not to include them in the current windfall tax.



Surely in a competitive capitalist system the costs from different sources should be decoupled. If renewables are cheaper market forces should act to make them more popular.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 5, 2022)

I'm mildly surprised not to see the web full of instructions on how to bypass electricity meters...


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 5, 2022)

The burning question is at what level the cap will be set and for whom .The 'Scottish Power' plan (which this probably is under an assumed name) called for freezing energy prices at the current April 2022 price cap which is high but bearable for most. So I'd hope for that (lower would be nice). Freezing it at the October 2022 price cap is going to be crippling and the thought that this is as bad as it gets isn't going to be much comfort.
Also what about businesses? whilst the like of Rolls Royce and British Aerospace can probably stand a bit of pain, the local butchers and healthfood shops are going to need help as much as the domestic customers.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 5, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> The burning question is at what level the cap will be set and for whom .The 'Scottish Power' plan (which this probably is under an assumed name) called for freezing energy prices at the current April 2022 price cap which is high but bearable for most. So I'd hope for that (lower would be nice). Freezing it at the October 2022 price cap is going to be crippling and the thought that this is as bad as it gets isn't going to be much comfort.
> Also what about businesses? whilst the like of Rolls Royce and British Aerospace can probably stand a bit of pain, the local butchers and healthfood shops are going to need help as much as the domestic customers.


Oh, it'll be botched, inept, and almost certainly some unworkable scheme that will make a slight difference to poverty-stricken users while offering some massive kickback to power companies and megacorps.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 5, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I'm mildly surprised not to see the web full of instructions on how to bypass electricity meters...


Aside from the obvious risks of doing this it strikes me that this is another way that smart meters work for the energy suppliers. Since they phone home every 30 mins, it won't take long before someone start to wonder why a given address is no longer using any electricity.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 5, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Aside from the obvious risks of doing this it strikes me that this is another way that smart meters work for the energy suppliers. Since they phone home every 30 mins, it won't take long before someone start to wonder why a given address is no longer using any electricity.


Indeed. And there are obvious risks, although I do find the mystical powers being attributed to electricity in order to dissuade people from trying rather amusing. I am absolutely sure that a competent electrician could arrange things perfectly safely. The stealthy aspect might be more of an issue, although since nobody ever seems to read meters, that might not be the problem it was.

Also, anyone who simply bypassed their meter - smart or otherwise - would be asking for trouble, as that's going to flag up pretty quickly, unless they submitted "fake" readings to look vaguely realistic.


----------



## magneze (Sep 5, 2022)

Have been looking into solar power over the weekend. Why is it so complicated? Everything seems to be "here's a bunch of stuff, you pick it and hope it works together" or "here's a kit for you to assemble" or "contact us to install it all for you". On grid, I can sort of understand being complex, but off-grid? I've yet to find a simple "here's a box with a three pin socket on one end, solar panels plug in the other end". 🤷‍♂️


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## MickiQ (Sep 5, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Indeed. And there are obvious risks, although I do find the mystical powers being attributed to electricity in order to dissuade people from trying rather amusing. I am absolutely sure that a competent electrician could arrange things perfectly safely. The stealthy aspect might be more of an issue, although since nobody ever seems to read meters, that might not be the problem it was.
> 
> Also, anyone who simply bypassed their meter - smart or otherwise - would be asking for trouble, as that's going to flag up pretty quickly, unless they submitted "fake" readings to look vaguely realistic.


My Irish son-in-law is an engineer at a specialised company that makes high tech shit. He did (mostly jokingly I think) suggest connecting a water pump casing to a portable electric generator and then feeding water from the outside tap through it to steal electricity off the water company.


----------



## marty21 (Sep 5, 2022)

I guess an announcement is in the offing - once Queen Truss is enthroned. I've heard talk of freezing the cap at current levels at a cost of £100bn?  Surely cheaper to renationalise the energy companies? 

Or a cheaper way would be to set up a British Energy Company - 100% owned by the Government, and get the public to sign up?


----------



## elbows (Sep 5, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Oh, it'll be botched, inept, and almost certainly some unworkable scheme that will make a slight difference to poverty-stricken users while offering some massive kickback to power companies and megacorps.



Much like the pandemic bailouts, they cant actually afford to botch it that badly, it will have to broadly achieve its purpose because a total failure to offer meaningful support will be even more unworkable and unsustainable.


----------



## alex_ (Sep 5, 2022)

marty21 said:


> I guess an announcement is in the offing - once Queen Truss is enthroned. I've heard talk of freezing the cap at current levels at a cost of £100bn?  Surely cheaper to renationalise the energy companies?
> 
> Or a cheaper way would be to set up a British Energy Company - 100% owned by the Government, and get the public to sign up?



You need to nationalise the generators to make a difference - not ovo.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 5, 2022)

marty21 said:


> I guess an announcement is in the offing - once Queen Truss is enthroned. I've heard talk of freezing the cap at current levels at a cost of £100bn?  Surely cheaper to renationalise the energy companies?
> 
> Or a cheaper way would be to set up a British Energy Company - 100% owned by the Government, and get the public to sign up?


The figure of a tad under £3Bn has been touted for nationalising the distribution companies (by the TUC) but that would be on top of the £100Bn since we still have to buy the gas on the world markets and there is nowt any UK govt can do about that other than grit its teeth and pay it.  A nationalised company doesnt have to make a profit so we would probably save some of that £100Bn at least but it doesn't matter. Nationalisation is unthinkable as far as the current government is concerned not least because when the unthinkable is thinked then it is no longer unthinkable and people will start asking difficult questions about 'If we nationalise energy distribution why not generation or water or the railways' so can't see it happening


----------



## Raheem (Sep 5, 2022)

BigTom said:


> so that £170bn does include excess profits made by wind/solar/hydro/nuclear whose costs have not increased but whose income has risen in line with the rise in cost of gas generation, although the government decided not to include them in the current windfall tax.


The rise in gas prices has not been caused by an increase in the cost of providing the gas. It's just that profiteering is the right of every capitalist where fossil fuels are concerned and a bloody outrage when it comes to renewables.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 5, 2022)

Raheem said:


> The rise in gas prices has not been caused by an increase in the cost of providing the gas. It's just that profiteering is the right of every capitalist where fossil fuels are concerned and a bloody outrage when it comes to renewables.


Ann Petifor in the FT argues that - in fact she is saying that many commodity prices are totally decoupled from wholesale - and set by speculators on the Chicago futures market.
And that Truss's immanent plan to deregulate further will be a disaster. 
You are old Father William.... I can remember Harold Wilson and the Gnomes of Zurich!


----------



## Raheem (Sep 5, 2022)

CH1 said:


> You are old Father William.... I can remember Harold Wilson and the Gnomes of Zurich!


#draftfalllyrics


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 5, 2022)

Nice little chart. I've haven't looked to see how accurate it is:


----------



## marty21 (Sep 5, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> The figure of a tad under £3Bn has been touted for nationalising the distribution companies (by the TUC) but that would be on top of the £100Bn since we still have to buy the gas on the world markets and there is nowt any UK govt can do about that other than grit its teeth and pay it.  A nationalised company doesnt have to make a profit so we would probably save some of that £100Bn at least but it doesn't matter. Nationalisation is unthinkable as far as the current government is concerned not least because when the unthinkable is thinked then it is no longer unthinkable and people will start asking difficult questions about 'If we nationalise energy distribution why not generation or water or the railways' so can't see it happening


Yep, unthinkable a few years ago - and maybe not under the Tories - but the Labour Party should get ahead and promise this - I don't understand why they aren't all over this tbf


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## MickiQ (Sep 5, 2022)

marty21 said:


> Yep, unthinkable a few years ago - and maybe not under the Tories - but the Labour Party should get ahead and promise this - I don't understand why they aren't all over this tbf


Neither do I to be truthful, Regardless of whether it is a good or a bad idea, all the polls indicate that it is a popular idea. Starmer seems to be so afraid that anything with the taint of Corbyn on it will cost him votes that he is ignoring those policies that could get him some. This is his chance to show a clear divide between him and Loopy Lizzie and he seems terrified of taking it.


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## platinumsage (Sep 5, 2022)

alex_ said:


> You need to nationalise the generators to make a difference - not ovo.



And Qatar, the US etc where we import our LNG from. I bet that would cost more than £100 billion.


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## elbows (Sep 5, 2022)

My assumption is that even if we were able to strip away the vulgarities and extreme distortions and profiteering of the markets, there would still be significant price fluctuations that reflect legitimate, very large issues with the practical reality of supply and demand.

I suppose the ideological justification for market based systems is that these price signals are supposed to be a magical self-healing mechanism which would direct investment to where it needed to go in order to build a future infrastructure that met demand. But thats only one side of that picture, the other one is that supply-demand imbalances are dealt with via massive demand destruction, especially in the short-medium term.

If the crazy markets end up sending price signals that cause a level of demand destruction that is political and economically unacceptable, then governments will try to find ways to disable or override big chunks of that system, since the market based 'cure' will cause more damage than the original disease. We are still then left having to face whatever actual supply-demand imbalances shortages etc are actually present. And that could still be a very ugly mess, but it will at least be one where the actual reality is closer to the surface, where governments have more direct control during an intense crisis rather than abdicating their responsibilities to markets. Risks to this approach include that if you are not longer relying on market layers, disputes and deals will occur more directly between nation states, with less layers of plausible deniability of responsibility and buck passing. And it will not be sufficient to rely on rigging the game by writing the biggest cheques, you'll also need to engage in diplomacy with other countries properly and not fall out, and how will countries that throw their weight around overcome the tendancy of nations to ultimately 'look after their own first' if there are supply crunches all over the place at the same time?

Regardless of the extent to which governments do or do not end up stripping away or attempting to stabilise some market layers, other fundamentals will still be in the driving seat when it comes to quite how bad things get this winter. The weather will be an important factor, as will the extent that supply issues cascade into a complete nightmare. For example a lot of traditional resilience plans when it comes to security of energy supply lean heavily on the idea that if one nation has a shortfall, use can be made of interconnected systems between European countries, one country can compensate for anothers shortfall. That will break down quickly if everyone is having the same sort of problems at the same time. The gas situation on its own may be tricky enough to cope with, but start chucking in issues with French nuclear power stations being offline and a load of other stuff and the worst case situations will look very bleak. Maybe we will dodge those bullets, maybe we wont, but we'll have done very well if we manage this winter to keep public perceptions of the energy crisis as being one of price rather than availability.


----------



## moochedit (Sep 5, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I'm mildly surprised not to see the web full of instructions on how to bypass electricity meters...


Ask on the drugs forum


----------



## nottsgirl (Sep 5, 2022)

British Gas have offered me a fix for 3 x what I was paying.


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## CH1 (Sep 5, 2022)

This sounds dire Listening to European Electricity Traders Is Very, Very Scary


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## magneze (Sep 5, 2022)

"Smart" thermostat shenanigans:








						A utility company locked thousands of customers out of their smart thermostats in Colorado
					

An epic heatwave is suffocating the western US.




					www.theverge.com


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 5, 2022)

magneze said:


> "Smart" thermostat shenanigans:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seems fair enough, if you sign up for this sort of deal, you can't expect them not to do it. 🤷‍♂️



> All of the customers affected had enrolled in an energy-saving program, called AC Rewards, that’s meant to ease the strain on the power grid during heatwaves. Xcel can adjust those customers’ smart thermostats when demand gets so high that there might not be enough supply to meet it. Xcel offers a one-time $100 credit on electricity bills upon signing up, and $25 a year afterward for participation.


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## alex_ (Sep 5, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> British Gas have offered me a fix for 3 x what I was paying.



Feel a bit sorry for anyone who has fixed before they announce a price dap


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## scifisam (Sep 5, 2022)

pinkmonkey said:


> I’ve heard nothing from eon.next so far, I have power of attorney for my father, I deal with the bills. When the direct debit goes up in October, his pension won’t cover it, he has no overdraft facility and no credit cards or anything like that, I had it removed a couple of years ago when he got into debt, between us 3 siblings, we paid it off.
> 
> What do folks think, am I in my rights to ask them to keep the direct debit the same?
> 
> We know that a debt is likely to build up, but my brother told me he’d be able to pay it off. Dad has rheumatoid arthritis. My parents have definitely cut down their energy use, we got rid of an old fridge freezer, that took £20 off the bills per month, they use ipads for entertainment, big telly stays off, don’t use oven anymore, stuff like that. It’s heating the house that I’m concerned about, the temperature dropped a little bit this week and he’s already in pain. 91 year olds can’t sit in the cold. Dad built this house, it’s big and the main living space is open plan, what are we supposed to do, build walls so we can heat one bit?



If you haven't done already and nobody else has suggested it already (in which case, apologies), it'd be worth registering for their priority services system for your Dad. It won't mean they can never cut him off, but should mean a more gentle approach to being in debt.


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## Artaxerxes (Sep 5, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Feel a bit sorry for anyone who has fixed before they announce a price dap



Don't, these grey hairs aren't fun. If you can get it cheap, do. Not going to be sorted anytime soon after all.


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## teqniq (Sep 6, 2022)

Short thread on Truss's energy plans, it's not looking good:


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## ska invita (Sep 6, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Nice little chart. I've haven't looked to see how accurate it is:




i wonder how much (more than last year) it costs to charge an electric car?


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## alex_ (Sep 6, 2022)

ska invita said:


> i wonder how much (more than last year) it costs to charge an electric car?



It’ll be cheaper than petrol still


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## ska invita (Sep 6, 2022)

alex_ said:


> It’ll be cheaper than petrol still


just looked this up didnt realise it was as cheap as this, or that supermarket charging was free


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## Thaw (Sep 6, 2022)

elbows said:


> My assumption is that even if we were able to strip away the vulgarities and extreme distortions and profiteering of the markets, there would still be significant price fluctuations that reflect legitimate, very large issues with the practical reality of supply and demand.


Trying to replace the big band of Russian gas with LNG shipments and increased storage and national production (new drilling, fracking, biomethane). It'll take a few years.  
(System Development Map - Gas Infrastructure Europe)


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## Storm Fox (Sep 7, 2022)

Now that Jacob Rees-Mogg has been given Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy we know how the govt are going to keep people warm this winter. Workhouses


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## CH1 (Sep 7, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> Now that Jacob Rees-Mogg has been given Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy we know how the govt are going to keep people warm this winter. Workhouses


Qualifying adults better make the most of Lambeth Hospital this winter - demolition is scheduled for next spring. Only 160 beds available.








						Huge new village will replace South London hospital with 533 homes
					

Staff and patients will be moved to a new building at Maudsley Hospital near Denmark Hill




					www.mylondon.news
				




I am considering reviving my campaign to embarrass the SLAM management by standing for the vacancy as a public governor to these asset strippers




__





						Information about the Council of Governors at South London and Maudsley
					

Our Governors are the link between service users and staff, and our Board.



					slam.nhs.uk


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## teqniq (Sep 7, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Qualifying adults better make the most of Lambeth Hospital this winter - demolition is scheduled for next spring. Only 160 beds available.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder who the building contractors are? Tory donors, no doubt.


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## CH1 (Sep 7, 2022)

teqniq said:


> I wonder who the building contractors are? Tory donors, no doubt.


There are many facets of this programme Capital Projects and Modernisation Programme - South London and Maudsley
The developers are always referred to as "our partners" PFI - but in the coset,
We'll knock down your 25 year old mental hospital and build yuppy flays - in return you grant us the right to change your light bulbs for £100 a go
Lambeth Council's PFI town hall extension is a model of transparency compared with this.


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## moochedit (Sep 7, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> Now that Jacob Rees-Mogg has been given Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy we know how the govt are going to keep people warm this winter. Workhouses


Women and children down coal mines and kids sweeping chimneys etc.


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## WouldBe (Sep 7, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> Now that Jacob Rees-Mogg has been given Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy we know how the govt are going to keep people warm this winter. Workhouses


Back to steam power then.


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## Artaxerxes (Sep 7, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Women and children down coal mines and kids sweeping chimneys etc.




If coal is to expensive have we considered the thermal properties of oaps? 

Throw another nan on the fire and keep warm.


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## Ranbay (Sep 7, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> If coal is to expensive have we considered the thermal properties of oaps?
> 
> Throw another nan on the fire and keep warm.




back in my day they just caught fire anyways....


you don't hear about spontaneous combustion anymore do you?


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## moochedit (Sep 7, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> If coal is to expensive have we considered the thermal properties of oaps?
> 
> Throw another nan on the fire and keep warm.


It's for the next term.


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## Ranbay (Sep 7, 2022)

__





						Spontaneous human combustion - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




See


----------



## CH1 (Sep 7, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Surprised you didn't cite the Fortean Times.


			https://cdn.centerforinquiry.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/1998/03/22164921/p47.pdf


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## MickiQ (Sep 8, 2022)

Well Loopy Lizzie has announced her grand plan 



			https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-62828637
		


That's still a fairly meaty rise of about 23% over what current bills are even if not the crippling 83% rise we were dreading. Loads going to struggle even just finding that extra 23%(ish)


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## magneze (Sep 8, 2022)

> *A typical household will save on average £1,000 a year from her two-year energy price guarantee, she claims.*


By raising the cap which was already raised massively. How is this 'saving'? Utterly incoherent.


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 8, 2022)

So capped at £2500, minus the £150 off council tax we've already had & the £400 off bills this winter, in real terms that's £1950, so it's £673 up on the pre-April price cap of £1,277, or an increase of around £13 per week.

Then there's still the extra help for groups like pensioners and those on tax credits & various benefits.

I guess that was about as good as I expected, TBH.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 8, 2022)

Good trick. Make out it's going to be absolutely horrendous. Make it less bad. Call it a saving. Haven't we done well?


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## ska invita (Sep 8, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I guess that was about as good as I expected, TBH.


Don't forget to factor in the massive cuts to social services  to pay off the 130 billion to hard working energy companies


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## kabbes (Sep 8, 2022)

Nice to know that the couple in the village living in the £4m hotel that they converted to their personal home will be getting the massive subsidies they so clearly deserve to heat their modest home for the next two years.


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## CH1 (Sep 8, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Nice to know that the couple in the village living in the £4m hotel that they converted to their personal home will be getting the massive subsidies they so clearly deserve to heat their modest home for the next two years.


I guess if they made the subsidy applicable only if signed off by a GP people like that would be on to one of these
Private GP Online Services - £40 Only To Speak To a GP


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## fucthest8 (Sep 8, 2022)

Honestly, there's no pleasing you people. Lovely Liz has just saved us all. Some people seem to expect something for nothing.* And just imagine would would have happened if that monster Corbyn had got in! <sings Rule Brittania>


*Actually something I overheard at work. I've not been here long, so I went to lunch instead.


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## kabbes (Sep 8, 2022)

They could have subsidised it up to a maximum energy usage, that would have comfortably covered any normal domestic usage but not, eg, the heating of a £4m ex-hotel?


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## existentialist (Sep 8, 2022)

kabbes said:


> They could have subsidised it up to a maximum energy usage, that would have comfortably covered any normal domestic usage but not, eg, the heating of a £4m ex-hotel?


That would fly in the face of everything they stand for.


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## platinumsage (Sep 10, 2022)

A £2500 price cap using the OFGEM system would have seen a gas price of 9.3p and electricity at 37p

However they're now going to cap the electricity price more than the gas:


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## cybershot (Sep 10, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> A £2500 price cap using the OFGEM system would have seen a gas price of 9.3p and electricity at 37p
> 
> However they're now going to cap the electricity price more than the gas:



No doubt because most normal folk still rely on a gas boiler.


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## platinumsage (Sep 10, 2022)

cybershot said:


> No doubt because most normal folk still rely on a gas boiler.



Yeah it's not because literally everyone has been calling for the electricity price to be divorced from gas prices.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 10, 2022)

The time switch on my hot water cylinder could only set "on" periods with a minimum of about 4 hours, which was a pain, as I end up heating more water than I need. So I replaced it yesterday with a wifi-controlled water heater switch, which I can switch off and on with much finer granularity. Which means I can run it for, say, 2 hours, during Economy 7 time, to heat all the water I need for a day. Given that the 3.5kW water heater is my biggest power use case, I am hoping that this will yield a significant reduction in my power usage.


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## Chz (Sep 10, 2022)

Damn it. It's now that time of year where it's cheaper to run the towel rail for 20 minutes at 600W than to heat the entire goddamn house just to have towels that aren't damp from yesterday. I realise it's peanuts per day, but it adds up over the year.


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 19, 2022)

Not posted in a while and I will try to restrict myself to things other might actually find useful ...

Others may call my lifestyle masochistic, but I would live this way no matter how wealthy I was - except that I would live in a better-insulated home and have solar power and perhaps even a wind turbine. (I'm hoping to do that in any case).
Apart from the cost, there are environmental and geopolitical factors.
I fully acknowledge that it will be very different for people who don't live alone or who are not as lucky as I am with regards health and fitness and I realise how cruel it is when the wealthy are rubbing it in our faces.

A couple of weeks ago, before the vile Tories kindly loaned us our own money, I found myself faced with an electricity bill I had become accustomed-to like a frog in a saucepan, first doubling and then tripling - and then there was the kettle "advice" and the rest...
So I finally bought a plug-in energy meter and set to working out where I was wasting electricity... I disconnected an inefficient 12 volt PSU and a 4 port ethernet switch I didn't need ...

*Fridge - 2kwh per day
PC - 1.5 to 2 - acts as heating in winter.
cooking total - 0.6 :-*
tea - 0.43 (boiled spuds and sauteed veggies from scratch)
breakfast (coffee and toast) - 0.09 (includes heat wasted by steel kettle and 2-slice toaster)
bread baking 0.355 / 6 = 0.06

I happily bathe at the basin with cold water and only heat water for a bath/laundry about once a month and I should lower the thermostat temperature (or perhaps fit one of my electronic ones ?)  so I don't need to add any cold water to bring it to 40 degrees C. Being about 3KW, that probably accounts for between 6 and 9 kwh over 30 days = *0.25 kwh*

Even adding a fairly sophisticated thermostat to my tiny camping fridge set to 10 degrees with generous hysteresis and switch-on delay, I can't get the usage down - but apparently even good modern fridges average 1.4 - so I will be consciously switching to alternative methods of storing my food once it gets colder - since I can't see myself reclaiming the 87 watts to heat my room ...




Of course there is *heating *to be factored-in for the winter months ahead, but last winter I saved several KWH over previous years thanks to slippers and a fleece waistcoat and I'm seriously considering electrically-heated clothing to substantially improve on this and hopefully see me doing work around the house and garden. (I have a stash of reclaimed 18650 cells).

My only heating last winter was a small fan-heater under my bench/desk and I should fit a better thermostat to this (perhaps under my clothing rather than in the room ?)

I could save even more if I went out for serious exercise in the evenings in place of my modest daily park walk - to replace my cycle commutes that used to see me cooling-off shirtless in 13 degrees C.

Perversely, at my recent yearly average consumption, once the £400 is factored-in I will be paying slightly less over 12 months.




Perhaps due to my focussing on it, I have recently been using less than I did last year - though this chart is misleading because of varying sampling intervals.


----------



## Looby (Sep 20, 2022)

We’ve just had the dreaded price increase email from Eon and our direct debit is going down. Should we trust this? 

Currently we’re paying £127 shortly increasing to £161.
So with the energy payments we’re all getting, it knocks out direct debit down to £94. 

We’re also £200 in credit. I don’t know whether to keep it on the higher amount or not to be safe but are they likely to underestimate rather than overestimate our gas use as this is where any increased use would be.


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## MickiQ (Sep 20, 2022)

Eon are knocking it off your bill then? British Gas are apparently are going to just pay it into our accounts a few days after they take the DD's. I suppose they've been told it's up to them how they pay the money out to the plebs


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## moochedit (Sep 20, 2022)

Looby said:


> We’ve just had the dreaded price increase email from Eon and our direct debit is going down. Should we trust this?
> 
> Currently we’re paying £127 shortly increasing to £161.
> So with the energy payments we’re all getting, it knocks out direct debit down to £94.
> ...


Do you have a smart meter? If not then could it be based on an estimated reading?


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## Looby (Sep 20, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Do you have a smart meter? If not then could it be based on an estimated reading?


Yeah we do.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 21, 2022)

ffs...this is with the energy cap...


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## MickiQ (Sep 21, 2022)

Seeing this thread updated has made me go to British Gas to see if there is owt there yet this is what I saw, Seriously that big blue box should just have "You're Screwed" in the biggest font they can find.


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## MickiQ (Sep 21, 2022)

All it says is my payments are being reviewed. I'm a little over £1K in credit but they only apply debits to my account 6 monthly so I expect that to nosedive very soon.


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## magneze (Sep 21, 2022)

Got email about price rises from Bulb. Check the app and the minimum payment per month has gone down £15🤔


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## moochedit (Sep 21, 2022)

I was paying about £100 a month at start of year which went up to £160 a month  and then was due to go up again in oct to about £270 a month (all figures combined gas and electric). However this latest increase was before the cap was frozen and whatever else truss has announced so i'm not sure if it will go down again? ( fingers crossed it does )


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## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 21, 2022)

Question to which the answer may be of general use. If you have taken steps to reduce your power usage, maybe including altering the balance between gas and electric, or relying on wood burning more, or reducing central heating timing and target temperatures, or installing solar panels or batteries, or loads of other stuff. If all of that, what is the best way to work out how successful your efforts have been? 
A price comparison between this year and last obviously won't work. But usage of gas and electric varies depending on the weather, and may have changed if you have made significant, or even minor, alterations to your system. Or can you only really tell over longer time periods? Is there some factor, weather related, that you could apply to usage statistics to average out standard demand over time? Or something?


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## two sheds (Sep 21, 2022)

You can use degree days figures.

Free UK degree-day data – welcome | VESMA.COM You need to register but it's free and he's a top man.

Companies use them and you can get accurate results - not sure how good they'd be for domestic though.

There's also hours of sunlight figures which I did use to check whether my solar panels were as efficient as they were when installed.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 21, 2022)

two sheds said:


> You can use degree days figures.
> 
> Free UK degree-day data – welcome | VESMA.COM You need to register but it's free and he's a top man.
> 
> ...


I might give that a try sometime. It looks rather heavy, from a cursory glance, but maybe worth the effort.


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## two sheds (Sep 21, 2022)

I've been meaning to calculate cusum for my electricity figures. Vesma has a page on that, too.





__





						Vilnis Vesma's Monitoring and Targeting Guide
					





					vesma.com
				




It shows up changes in behaviour - either changes in consumption because of energy saving or increases because of new equipment or faults in equipment that start taking more energy. Purists prefer the control chart but the limits need to be calculated correctly, and cusum's easier to spot historic changes.

Eta - shows changes in behaviour by changes in slope of the line


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## ice-is-forming (Sep 22, 2022)

This is awful for you all  my gas and electricity _combined_ comes to 800 pounds a year max here in aus, and the government just gave us a 100 pound cost of living credit for electricity!

Watching from overseas, it looks like daylight robbery


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2022)

Still not had an e-mail from OVO about new rates from 1st Oct., and I've logged in online just now as a new billing period starts today, and there isn't anything about it on the website.

My monthly bill for both electric & gas ending yesterday totalled just over £70, taking me just under £570 in credit, despite only paying a DD of £1pm for 3 months now, so imagine my [lack] of surprise to see them wanting to increase my DD to £191, the fuckwits.  



Clearly I'll be using more gas over the next 6 months, but I'll be getting the £66-67 monthly credit [£400 total] from the government for those 6 months too, plus I am almost £570 in credit. I use 25% less than the average household, which is subject to the £2,500 ‘Energy Price Guarantee’, so for me that would be £1875 or £156pm, once you factor in my credit and the £400 from the government, that comes down to just £905 or £75pm for the next 12 months, NOT £191pm.

And, that's without things they don't know about, like the 30+ year old boiler being replaced [saving 30%+ on gas use], the new Air-Fryer being used instead of the main oven, and my overall plan of using the heating less as well, my target is to come out of the next six months still with a small credit, whilst continuing to pay just £1pm, which means I am on the lower rates for paying by DD.

So, clearly there's no way I'll be increasing my DD, and if they do, I'll change it back to just £1 and put in a formal complaint, with luck it will end up with the ombudsman again, I could do with another goodwill payment of £100-£150.  

ETA - This should give High Voltage a bloody good laugh too.


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2022)

ice-is-forming said:


> This is awful for you all  my gas and electricity _combined_ comes to 800 pounds a year max here in aus, and the government just gave us a 100 pound cost of living credit for electricity!
> 
> Watching from overseas, it looks like daylight robbery



Australia has the benefit of exporting gas, and ironically the UK is importing some of it, fucks knows how much it costs for tankers to sail around 14,000 miles to get it here.


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## CH1 (Sep 22, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Australia has the benefit of exporting gas, and ironically the UK is importing some of it, fucks knows how much it costs for tankers to sail around 14,000 miles to get it here.


Australia, annual weather averages - Sydney​Australia, annual weather averages ; January is the hottest month in Sydney with _an average temperature of 23°C_ · (73°F) ; and the coldest is July at 13°C · (55°F) ...

‎


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Australia, annual weather averages - Sydney​Australia, annual weather averages ; January is the hottest month in Sydney with _an average temperature of 23°C_ · (73°F) ; and the coldest is July at 13°C · (55°F) ...
> 
> ‎



Yeah, that helps as well.


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## Chairman Meow (Sep 22, 2022)

Same. I have a direct debit set up for $30 a week electricity and $30 a month gas. We got a $400 rebate a few months ago, and I am currently over $600 in credit. We do have 18 solar panels though which helps a lot, especially as we have to run the pool pump for 2-4 hours a day. I just checked, we pay 27c per kw (about 16p) for electricity and 11.6c per kw for gas (under 7p) You guys are getting robbed! And obviously we don't have to pay for much heating here (although we do in winter, Aussie houses are freezing in winter) but we do have to pay for aircon (although the solar panels mitigate that if you have them).


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## Ranbay (Sep 22, 2022)

My fixed rate is up in Nov... going from £80 a month for both to £250.... Nice


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## platinumsage (Sep 22, 2022)

Now we're burning Norway's gas for them:


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## gentlegreen (Sep 22, 2022)

This whole thing has had me wondering why I never took a fixed rate deal ...
I spotted someone elsewhere online claiming a 1000 percent increase - clearly innumerate - I doubt anyone had a plan going back to when electricity was 3.4 p a unit...
I'm still left wondering where the hell I was using so much electricity ...


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## chandlerp (Sep 22, 2022)

My new bill has come in estimated at £4,035 for gas and electric.

It's a bit of a surprise because it was forecast to be more than that for the increase earlier this year.

I'm going to have to guess it's because the new windows, roof and rendering have improved the energy rating of the house so much we have used far less energy in the last year.


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## two sheds (Sep 22, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> This whole thing has had me wondering why I never took a fixed rate deal ...
> I spotted someone elsewhere online claiming a 1000 percent increase - clearly innumerate - I doubt anyone had a plan going back to when electricity was 3.4 p a unit...
> I'm still left wondering where the hell I was using so much electricity ...


I did wonder about your fridge taking 2 kWh/day. I recently replaced my ancient camping fridge with a new (half height) one for £80 and I measured it at 0.9 kWh/day.


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## gentlegreen (Sep 22, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I did wonder about your fridge taking 2 kWh/day. I recently replaced my ancient camping fridge with a new (half height) one for £80 and I measured it at 0.9 kWh/day.


It's been doing my head in - evaporative element - 87 watts - I often catch my fancy thermostat in the off mode, but it always measures the same consumption.
Perhaps I'll try wrapping all my spare insulation around it ... perhaps I'll take the back off and blow out the condenser fins ...


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## gentlegreen (Sep 22, 2022)

But it's all the rest - It was such a warm spring - I rather wastefully was running 40 to 70 watts of seedling lighting 24/7 when I should have had a timer on it, but that doesn't account for it ...

I was going to ask what your consumption pattern looks like - are you dumping all your spare electricity into hot water or do you have feed-in ?


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## two sheds (Sep 22, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> But it's all the rest - It was such a warm spring - I rather wastefully was running 40 to 70 watts of seedling lighting 24/7 when I should have had a timer on it, but that doesn't account for it ...
> 
> I was going to ask what your consumption pattern looks like - are you dumping all your spare electricity into hot water or do you have feed-in ?


I'm checking but I'll swear the new fridge is 45W on for two hours a day. The camping fridge I had was taking quite a bit more and was on for longer, I was a bit shocked, and saving say 100W/day at the exorbitant Ecotricity rates gives a repayment of well within a year.  I don't feel too bad about scrapping the old one because I'd had it a good 20 years.

My first 120W (ish) charges the batteries for evening computer use (not sure I'd recommend it on the whole but has been interesting exercise), along with computer and basic house stuff, the next 300W when it's sunny goes to dehumidifier in downstairs room. Rest goes to heat water as you say plus anything over gets exported at 4p/unit.


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2022)

gentlegreen, my 20+ year old fridge/freezer uses under 2kw a day, so I am surprised a little camping fridge uses more.



> I should lower the thermostat temperature (or perhaps fit one of my electronic ones ?) so I don't need to add any cold water to bring it to 40 degrees C.



For combi boilers, the minimum recommended output temperature for thot water is between 50 °C and 60 °C, or 60 °C if you are heating a tank, otherwise bacteria responsible for Legionnaires’ Disease can thrive and multiply, it's a potentially fatal lung infection spread through the inhalation of water particles.


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## existentialist (Sep 22, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> gentlegreen, my 20+ year old fridge/freezer uses under 2kw a day, so I am surprised a little camping fridge uses more.


I'm not - I don't think camping fridges are generally designed for good insulation, or efficiency. I suspect that a better option might be a small, fairly modern, conventional fridge - eg some kind of under-counter job.

And yeah, 40C is a pretty perfect petri dish temperature for all kinds of naughtiness.

I'd thought the same as gentlegreen (on the hot water front, at least) - I spend a LOT of money heating a tank of water every night, most of which radiates back into the loft. I've put a different time switch on, now, and run it for about 2hours/night instead of the 5 it was on for before, and it gives me enough hot water for my needs. At about 55C.


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## gentlegreen (Sep 22, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I'm not - I don't think camping fridges are generally designed for good insulation, or efficiency. I suspect that a better option might be a small, fairly modern, conventional fridge - eg some kind of under-counter job.


This is only a stop-gap - hopefully I will find a passive alternative in about a month's time when it's only sprouts and kale I'm keeping.
I will see what I can do about insulating it.
Where it's located is usually 5 degrees above outside temps - maybe I'll move it downstairs - but that would be a bit inconvenient.
Perhaps I will repurpose a mini greenhouse ...


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## existentialist (Sep 22, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> This is only a stop-gap - hopefully I will find a passive alternative in about a month's time when it's only sprouts and kale I'm keeping.
> I will see what I can do about insulating it.
> Where it's located is usually 5 degrees above outside temps - maybe I'll move it downstairs - but that would be a bit inconvenient.
> Perhaps I will repurpose a mini greenhouse ...


You sure freecycling a fridge wouldn't be an easier option all round?


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## gentlegreen (Sep 22, 2022)

existentialist said:


> You sure freecycling a fridge wouldn't be an easier option all round?


I would feel guilty getting a fridge for free... and I don't have transport.
I only started using this camping fridge because people here prompted me to get the thing out last year and I have often had things in it that didn't warrant the electricity.
At the moment it's costing me 50p a day to keep salad fresh in between supermarket visits - part of my grand plan was to be picking it fresh ... apart from the environmental and geopolitical dimensions ...
I used to treat the supermarket as my fridge - one of them is only 100 metres from my front door - though Aldi is a bit farther.
Retirement and covid has skewed things somewhat.


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## Artaxerxes (Sep 22, 2022)

DD up twenty quid.

Apparently no fixed tariff available with EDF at the moment


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## gentlegreen (Sep 22, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> DD up twenty quid.
> 
> Apparently no fixed tariff available with EDF at the moment


not going to be for two years with the subsidy.


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## Artaxerxes (Sep 22, 2022)

Nice I suppose.

I have no idea what’s going to happen when I move house, the big companies are pretending they can’t take customers by some reports


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## moochedit (Sep 22, 2022)

moochedit said:


> I was paying about £100 a month at start of year which went up to £160 a month  and then was due to go up again in oct to about £270 a month (all figures combined gas and electric). However this latest increase was before the cap was frozen and whatever else truss has announced so i'm not sure if it will go down again? ( fingers crossed it does )


Had email from ovo saying prices going down again due to cap freeze and they will contact me soon with new direct debit amount.


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## nottsgirl (Sep 22, 2022)

moochedit said:


> I was paying about £100 a month at start of year which went up to £160 a month  and then was due to go up again in oct to about £270 a month (all figures combined gas and electric). However this latest increase was before the cap was frozen and whatever else truss has announced so i'm not sure if it will go down again? ( fingers crossed it does )


It probably won’t go down. I’m on a variable tariff and mine is going up very slightly in October.


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## weepiper (Sep 22, 2022)

Unless your question is 'how much is the direct debit you're going to take out of my bank account in less than ten days' time going to be?', apparently


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## Artaxerxes (Sep 22, 2022)

And just like that email from EDF about the mystery 400 quid.

In stages 66 and 67 quid  a month till April


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## moochedit (Sep 22, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> It probably won’t go down. I’m on a variable tariff and mine is going up very slightly in October.


I've had an email from them since that post saying it's reducing due to cap freeze but not by how much yet. Second email to follow.


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## gentlegreen (Sep 22, 2022)

moochedit said:


> I've had an email from them since that post saying it's reducing due to cap freeze but not by how much yet. Second email to follow.


presumably you know your usage ?,
I doubt any supplier will not charge the 34p for electricity and 10.3p for gas ...
Minus the £400.


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## moochedit (Sep 22, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> presumably you know your usage ?,
> I doubt any supplier will not charge the 34p for electricity and 10.3p for gas ...
> Minus the £400.


Not off the top of my head although it'll be in my bills. I have smart meters so no estimated readings. I only really pay attention to the monthly direct debit and the balance to be honest.


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## WouldBe (Sep 22, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Not off the top of my head although it'll be in my bills. I have smart meters so no estimated readings. I only really pay attention to the monthly direct debit and the balance to be honest.


My smart meter has gone on strike and isn't sending readings anymore so I've had estimated bills for the last 2 months.


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## Chilli.s (Sep 23, 2022)

Iv been driving past a windfarm recently and trying to spot the turbines that arent working. My guestimate is that between 10 and 20 % are not functioning. I would have thought that repairs should be fairly important and efficiently done, seems not.


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## alex_ (Sep 23, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Iv been driving past a windfarm recently and trying to spot the turbines that arent working. My guestimate is that between 10 and 20 % are not functioning. I would have thought that repairs should be fairly important and efficiently done, seems not.



I think depending upon wind conditions, to maximise total windfarm output they shut some turbines down.

Alex


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Still not had an e-mail from OVO about new rates from 1st Oct., and I've logged in online just now as a new billing period starts today, and there isn't anything about it on the website.
> 
> My monthly bill for both electric & gas ending yesterday totalled just over £70, taking me just under £570 in credit, despite only paying a DD of £1pm for 3 months now, so imagine my [lack] of surprise to see them wanting to increase my DD to £191, the fuckwits.
> 
> ...



I had a play yesterday, and I did actually increase my DD*, and the message about being almost £2.5k in debt in 12 months and needing to increase my DD to £191pm disappeared in a puff of smoke, and normally about 24 hours after those messages appear I get an e-mail about increasing my DD, that hasn't arrived, so I think I've beaten their system again.

* Increased from £1 to £2.


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## moochedit (Sep 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I had a play yesterday, and I did actually increase my DD*, and the message about being almost £2.5k in debt in 12 months and needing to increase my DD to £191pm disappeared in a puff of smoke, and normally about 24 hours after those messages appear I get an e-mail about increasing my DD, that hasn't arrived, so I think I've beaten their system again.
> 
> * Increased from £1 to £2.


Won't that just build up a massive debt over time though? I seriously doubt you use only £2 worth of leccy/gas each month


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 23, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Won't that just build up a massive debt over time though? I seriously doubt you use only £2 worth of leccy/gas each month



See my post from yesterday, that I quoted just above, that explains it.


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## moochedit (Sep 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> See my post from yesterday, that I quoted just above, that explains it.


Still don't get it. I can't see how paying £2 a month would cover your elec/gas use?

Unless you already have a massive credit balance with them? (Apols if you said that earlier. Not got time to check right now)


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 23, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Still don't get it. I can't see how paying £2 a month would cover your elec/gas use?
> 
> Unless you already have a massive credit balance with them? (Apols if you said that earlier. Not got time to check right now)



It's a combination of things, explained here.


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## moochedit (Sep 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's a combination of things, explained here.


Ah ok so you did have a credit balance (amongst other things) so makes more sense now.


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## Chz (Sep 23, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> gentlegreen, my 20+ year old fridge/freezer uses under 2kw a day, so I am surprised a little camping fridge uses more.
> 
> 
> 
> For combi boilers, the minimum recommended output temperature for thot water is between 50 °C and 60 °C, or 60 °C if you are heating a tank, otherwise bacteria responsible for Legionnaires’ Disease can thrive and multiply, it's a potentially fatal lung infection spread through the inhalation of water particles.


As I understand it, they do still recommend it for tankless systems but there's never actually been a case of it happening. The way tankless systems work, they should be extremely hostile to Legionnaire's at any temperature. I set mine to 48 when there was a toddler about and haven't seen any reason to raise it in the 10 years since.


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## BigMoaner (Sep 23, 2022)

mine has now gone down from 99 (which includes me clearing a fair bit of debit) to 37. touch


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## gentlegreen (Sep 23, 2022)

I'm with Bulb and since the last bill was based on an estimated reading and a bit high and somehow I've got my usage down to under 5 units a day, my next bill will be the smallest in ages - if the £66 was going in this month it would likely be negative.
Let's hope October is similarly mild - though it's already been dipping to single figures at night ...

I haz socks


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## Chilli.s (Sep 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I haz socks


And you can always double up if the temp does drop


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## gentlegreen (Sep 23, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> And you can always double up if the temp does drop


I'm still getting used to the sensation - I've been in _homme sauvage_ mode all summer ...


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## Chilli.s (Sep 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> _homme sauvage_


no socks, no cacks... au  naturellement


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## contadino (Sep 23, 2022)

I once spent a month barefoot and when I needed to put shoes on again they were too small.


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## High Voltage (Sep 23, 2022)

Our last bill from bulb was just under £60 for the month. 

Ever since I've started "giving a fuck" and monitoring of electricity usage (so March to September) our monthly bill has been, give our take, £65 a month 

As we don't use electricity for heating, well we do but it's minimal, I can't really see our usage going up that much, the £66 / month payment will almost certainly cover any increase, infact we'll probably come out ahead


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## two sheds (Sep 23, 2022)

contadino said:


> I once spent a month barefoot and when I needed to put shoes on again they were too small.


When I was in Cornwall in 72 I went everywhere barefoot, the joy was a hippy walking unconcerned across sharp stony beaches while proper men were going ooo ooo ooo ouch ouch.


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## gentlegreen (Sep 24, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Our last bill from bulb was just under £60 for the month.
> 
> Ever since I've started "giving a fuck" and monitoring of electricity usage (so March to September) our monthly bill has been, give our take, £65 a month
> 
> As we don't use electricity for heating, well we do but it's minimal, I can't really see our usage going up that much, the £66 / month payment will almost certainly cover any increase, infact we'll probably come out ahead


I still don't know how I was using so much for so much of the year for so long - surely can't be carelessness with 9 watt LED lamps ... even raising seedlings under up to 70 watts of light 24/7 only adds up to 1.7 units a day ...
When I was working and bathing every Sunday that was 1 kwh per day - weighed against not being home during the day.
Well I'm hopefully on top of it now.


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## bellaozzydog (Sep 24, 2022)

Just got an email from EON

My gas and electricity is going up from 185 quid a month (which I’ve been paying for two years) to……..150 Quid a month

I am now a really confused


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## High Voltage (Sep 24, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I still don't know how I was using so much for so much of the year for so long - surely can't be carelessness with 9 watt LED lamps ... even raising seedlings under up to 70 watts of light 24/7 only adds up to 1.7 units a day ...
> When I was working and bathing every Sunday that was 1 kwh per day - weighed against not being home during the day.
> Well I'm hopefully on top of it now.



Just go back and check some of my earlier posts. I was nearly going spare trying to understand my energy usage

I've ended up with a spread sheet listing, pretty much, everything in the house that uses power, their hourly (or daily) power consumption and how long approx they're on for, with some rounding for sanity, and I've got a model which pretty accurately reflects our summer usage. So much so that I can explore what having stuff switched on for different lengths of time or numbers of cycles in the case of, say, the dishwasher, looks like

It was a combination of using those plug in meters, checking on the manufacturers web site for power usage of the white good in question (they're all pretty new so the figures for the actual unit can still be found or one close enough to use, the owl reader turns out to over read by 25%, so an 8KWh day is actually only 6 from the main consumer unit.

This also highlighted that we had a broken AND jammed three way powered valve on our hot water/central heating system that I didn't know about. So when the lpg boiler was coming on to heat water only it was also running the central heating as well. This is now fixed. And the 3KW(?) immersion heater which is used to boost the water temperature in the hot water tank has been switched off. And the daily lpg burn used to give hot water has been reduced from 1 hour a day down to 30 minutes with no noticeable effect on the hot water. Underfloor heating in the bathroom - OFF for all the summer, this will be the only extra winter power usage so easily monitorable

I've also got in touch with the lpg supplier to see if they do a more accurate measuring system, they do, and I'm exploring getting one of those installed so I can see if getting this and next winters gas usage out of our tank is feasible, I think it might be if we're frugal, but like you we're both home now, as both recently retired, so use will almost certainly increase. I suspect wood and coal will probably do the heavy lifting on our heating

Edit: stupid typos


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## weltweit (Sep 24, 2022)

While I am glad to see that petrol and diesel prices are now coming down again, electric and gas is still cause for concern.


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 24, 2022)

weltweit said:


> While I am glad to see that petrol and diesel prices are now coming down again, electric and gas is still cause for concern.



Indeed, I guess at least we have this new 'price guarantee' of £2,500, which isn't ideal, but a lot better than the 'price cap' projections of over £6.600 from March 2023.


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## Looby (Sep 24, 2022)

bellaozzydog said:


> Just got an email from EON
> 
> My gas and electricity is going up from 185 quid a month (which I’ve been paying for two years) to……..150 Quid a month
> 
> I am now a really confused


Isn’t it because of the £400 payment? Our DD has gone down too although technically our monthly bill is now 40 quid more.


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## weltweit (Sep 24, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Indeed, I guess at least we have this new 'price guarantee' of £2,500, which isn't ideal, but a lot better than the 'price cap' projections of over £6.600 from March 2023.


There are going to be plenty of people that can't afford £2,500 though, what is to become of them?


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 24, 2022)

weltweit said:


> There are going to be plenty of people that can't afford £2,500 though, what is to become of them?



That's why I said 'not ideal'.

In fact it's £2,500 - £400 discount this winter, then there's extra for the most vulnerable households, but yeah it's still going to be hard for a lot of people.



> The significant intervention includes a new, one-off £650 payment to more than 8 million low-income households on Universal Credit, Tax Credits, Pension Credit and legacy benefits, with separate one-off payments of £300 to pensioner households and £150 to individuals receiving disability benefits – groups who are most vulnerable to rising prices.
> 
> Rishi Sunak also announced that the energy bills discount due to come in from October is being doubled from £200 to £400, while the requirement to pay it back will be scrapped. This means households will receive a £400 discount on their energy bills from October.
> 
> The new Cost of Living Support package will mean that almost all of the eight million most vulnerable households will receive at least £1,200 of extra support this year, including the £150 council tax rebate that many families received last month – equal to the average energy price cap rise over this year.











						Millions of most vulnerable households will receive £1,200 of help with cost of living
					

Millions of households across the UK will benefit from a new £15 billion package of targeted government support to help with the rising cost of living, the Chancellor announced today (26 May).




					www.gov.uk


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## MickiQ (Sep 24, 2022)

British Gas have sent me 2 emails entitled "Important Information About Your Tariff" which might be more accurately titled as "Yo Sucker We Gonna Rob You Blind"
 I am currently massively in credit on both gas and electric since they only charge debits to my account once every 6 months and the next time will be next month when I expect my credit balance to evaporate like morning mist.
They haven't asked me to raise DD's but the amounts they are estimating are £144 for Gas (currently £95) and £127 for Electric (currently £115)
Tariffs haven't gone up evenly leccy has gone up by 19% but Gas has gone up by 40% 
So once (and if) DD's get raised then it will be £271 pm but for 6 months I will get a payment of £66/67 pm back probably a week later.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 24, 2022)

weltweit said:


> There are going to be plenty of people that can't afford £2,500 though, what is to become of them?


They will sit in the dark shivering but at least they will be able to look forward to a tax cut.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 24, 2022)

weltweit said:


> While I am glad to see that petrol and diesel prices are now coming down again, electric and gas is still cause for concern.


Yebbut...don't forget the fall-out from Kwarteng's event...


----------



## weltweit (Sep 24, 2022)

£6 extra is about 10%, I can live with that.


----------



## _Russ_ (Sep 24, 2022)




----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 25, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I've been in the pub too, and I seem to have ordered a new fridge-freezer online.





two sheds said:


> what's the power consumption?





cupid_stunt said:


> Well, that's thing, I am not sure, I 'think' it's going to save lots, but I hadn't completed my research!
> 
> I've been giving sanctuary to an old mate for a few weeks now, following his marriage break-up, he's pissed off with me obsessing over the electric use of the 20 year old fridge-freezer and possible savings if I get a new one, and has promised to pay for it, if it doesn't pay for itself in 3 years, but I have nothing in writing.
> 
> Updates will be on the electricity bill thread, rather than further derailing this one.



The obsessing revolved around a number of things, I was confused that almost all fridge freezers I was looking at  had a energy rating of 'F', which seemed very poor, until I discovered they changed the scale last year, so 'F' is the new 'A*' rating, so fairly good.

Secondly, I am not sure how much the old F/F is using, I think it's somewhere under 2kwh per day, but it could be more, it's hard to tell using the smart meter monitor, because it's not constantly fired up, and when it does get going it can draw anything from about 120w to 280w for a number of minutes.

Finally it was size, the current one is a standard large one, split about 50/50, so I was looking for something smaller, but I think I would find the standard under the counter 70/30 ones a bit small. Finally I found a non-standard sized one that's basically bang in the middle of those standard sizes and is 60% fridge/40% freezer. 

Anyway, after a few beers and my mate saying, 'FFS just order it, if it doesn't pay for itself in 3 year I'll fucking pay for it myself', the deal was done.

It's costing £250 including delivery and taking the old one away, it's consumption is 229kwh per year, so about 630w per day, therefore it should save at the very least 1kwh per day, about £130 a year at the rates from Oct, and pay for itself in under 2 years, so my mate's money is safe, or, at least that's theory!


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 25, 2022)

all these figures banded about as if life was like a laboratory experiment


----------



## alex_ (Sep 25, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> The obsessing revolved around a number of things, I was confused that almost all fridge freezers I was looking at  had a energy rating of 'F', which seemed very poor, until I discovered they changed the scale last year, so 'F' is the new 'A*' rating, so fairly good.
> 
> Secondly, I am not sure how much the old F/F is using, I think it's somewhere under 2kwh per day, but it could be more, it's hard to tell using the smart meter monitor, because it's not constantly fired up, and when it does get going it can draw anything from about 120w to 280w for a number of minutes.
> 
> ...



The government should be giving these away to people who can show they have and can scrap a less than ( say ) B rated fridge and requiring rentals to have A rated appliances.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 25, 2022)

alex_ said:


> The government should be giving these away to people who can show they have and can scrap a less than ( say ) B rated fridge and requiring rentals to have A rated appliances.


They're more likely to fling £10bn at the CEO of a white goods company, and hope that the benefits somehow trickle down.


----------



## alex_ (Sep 25, 2022)

existentialist said:


> They're more likely to fling £10bn at the CEO of a white goods company, and hope that the benefits somehow trickle down.



Fair point - you could buy Miele appliances for the top 1% instead.

I genuinely don’t understand the lack of focus on insulation and any other demand reduction measures


----------



## existentialist (Sep 25, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Fair point - you could buy Miele appliances for the top 1% instead.
> 
> I genuinely don’t understand the lack of focus on insulation and any other demand reduction measures


It's far too "woke".  Why insulate, which isn't very profitable, when we can pay companies billions to frack?


----------



## alex_ (Sep 25, 2022)

existentialist said:


> It's far too "woke".  Why insulate, which isn't very profitable, when we can pay companies billions to frack?



Surely they could reduce benefits and if energy bills were lower ?


----------



## two sheds (Sep 25, 2022)

or landlords could put up rents


----------



## Fruitloop (Sep 25, 2022)

Had thought to get the fireplace sorted so that we had an alternative heatsource for the winter, but we got a chimney sweep in and it's been condemned. For £95 which stung a bit. 

Apparently we can get a liner, but that would cost thousands which I have not got.


----------



## alex_ (Sep 25, 2022)

two sheds said:


> or landlords could put up rents



Thinking like a Tory


----------



## CH1 (Sep 25, 2022)

Fruitloop said:


> Had thought to get the fireplace sorted so that we had an alternative heatsource for the winter, but we got a chimney sweep in and it's been condemned. For £95 which stung a bit.
> 
> Apparently we can get a liner, but that would cost thousands which I have not got.


How did that happen - is there a chimney equivalent of _GasSafe_?
I've got 2 fireplaces - and I think they are both open. Certainly "bits" fall down them both - and on one occasion about 25 years ago a live pigeon got down one. A bit of a drama trying to get it out the window.

BTW is there an official "chimney blocking bag" available. I tend to put books & old copies of the FT up but that seems to attract mice. And very messy to take back down in summer. Must be a lot of hot air goes up uncapped chimneys.


----------



## alex_ (Sep 25, 2022)

CH1 said:


> How did that happen - is there a chimney equivalent of _GasSafe_?
> I've got 2 fireplaces - and I think they are both open. Certainly "bits" fall down them both - and on one occasion about 25 years ago a live pigeon got down one. A bit of a drama trying to get it out the window.
> 
> BTW is there an official "chimney blocking bag" available. I tend to put books & old copies of the FT up but that seems to attract mice. And very messy to take back down in summer. Must be a lot of hot air goes up uncapped chimneys.



You can get a kind of balloon thing 

Eg Keep warm air in and cold air out with Chimney Balloon! - Chimney Balloon

This isnt a reference just the first useful hit on Google


----------



## alex_ (Sep 25, 2022)

existentialist said:


> It's far too "woke".  Why insulate, which isn't very profitable, when we can pay companies billions to frack?



Seriously - I can’t even find any oped’s in the telegraph on why insulation in is bad. 

I don’t get it - are they really this shit at running a country, they they cannot figure out “less spent on heating = more spent on everything else, county is richer” ?


----------



## Storm Fox (Sep 25, 2022)

Fruitloop said:


> Had thought to get the fireplace sorted so that we had an alternative heatsource for the winter, but we got a chimney sweep in and it's been condemned. For £95 which stung a bit.
> 
> Apparently we can get a liner, but that would cost thousands which I have not got.


That seems a bit excessive. It might be worth getting a 2nd quote, if you can get one for free.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 25, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> That seems a bit excessive. It might be worth getting a 2nd quote, if you can get one for free.



It can get very expensive.



> The average cost to supply and fit a chimney liner is approximately £250 per metre. Your chimney may need other remedial works e.g. new pots, flaunching, repointing, repairs etc. This will be an additional cost to the above. The average cost of just supplying the liner will be between £175 per metre and the rest will be the labour. It can take between 1 and 3 days to install a chimney liner depending on the complexity and the average cost of the tradesman will range between £180 – £250 per day.





			https://www.checkatrade.com/blog/cost-guides/chimney-liner-cost/


----------



## Storm Fox (Sep 25, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> It can get very expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had a metal liner in my chimney and they completed the job in 1/2 a day. I need to check the price as it sold with the fireplace. 
Of course things, vary I must have been really lucky.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 25, 2022)

Apparently the chimney liner in one of my chimneys was installed (before I came here) upside down.  Now that I think of it I wonder whether that's why there's a leak down the chimney breast when it rains, which had confused me somewhat because I'd got up there (not very high) and bichumen treated round the base of the chimney then had someone get up there and do it properly.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 25, 2022)

existentialist said:


> It's far too "woke".  Why insulate, which isn't very profitable,


It is for insulation companies.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 25, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> It is for insulation companies.


Far more profit in fossil fuels...unless you're in the inflammable insulation business, I guess...


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 25, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> I had a metal liner in my chimney and they completed the job in 1/2 a day. I need to check the price as it sold with the fireplace.
> Of course things, vary I must have been really lucky.


Mine cost £750 about 6 years ago. That was for 11m if liner, 13 bags of chimney insulation and included fitting the wood burner.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 25, 2022)

Just had a quick look and 10m if 5" liner and bits is £264.86 

Chimney Flue Liner 316L & Fitting Kit 503 - £195.79 :


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 26, 2022)

The council put insulated panels in my walls a few years ago. Makes it really hot during summer 
But think I'm gonna be thankful for it once winter comes.
I rarely have to put the heating on.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 26, 2022)

xsunnysuex said:


> The council put insulated panels in my walls a few years ago. *Makes it really hot during summer*


That shouldn't really happen. Does the overheating happen in rooms that get a lot of direct sunlight?


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 26, 2022)

teuchter said:


> That shouldn't really happen. Does the overheating happen in rooms that get a lot of direct sunlight?


Yes. The living room is sun facing. It gets so hot.  We recently had the building painted. So there was scaffolding all around it.  Kept the sun out.  I wish we could keep it.   😂


----------



## teuchter (Sep 26, 2022)

xsunnysuex said:


> Yes. The living room is sun facing. It gets so hot.  We recently had the building painted. So there was scaffolding all around it.  Kept the sun out.  I wish we could keep it.   😂


They should not really have installed insulation without thinking through overheating issues that might result. I'm guessing the insulation is on the outside of the walls meaning that the structure of the building warms up from sun coming through the windows and then can't cool down at the rate it would have done before. Providing some kind of additional shading to south facing windows would probably solve the problem. Done properly insulation should reduce overheating problems rather than increase them.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 26, 2022)

teuchter said:


> They should not really have installed insulation without thinking through overheating issues that might result. I'm guessing the insulation is on the outside of the walls meaning that the structure of the building warms up from sun coming through the windows and then can't cool down at the rate it would have done before. Providing some kind of additional shading to south facing windows would probably solve the problem. Done properly insulation should reduce overheating problems rather than increase them.


It was heaven when the scaffolding was up.  They put a wooden plank that divided the upstairs and downstairs.  It's surprising the difference it made.  Especially on the 40 and above days.


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 26, 2022)

My East-facing front bedroom is well-insulated.
It was a bit of a pain during the hot spells as the heat just built up and up ... but I only had to sleep downstairs for one night.
I resisted fitting my six inch fan in that window ...

It'll be a while before cooling is more important than heating in the UK.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 27, 2022)

Eon have just emailed me to say my DD has gone up to £130 from £85. This includes the govt contribution. I’ve asked them to revert to £85.


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 27, 2022)

Perhaps an advantage of using a bankrupt supplier (Bulb) is that I can micro-manage my payments.
I'm hoping to surprise them by significantly reducing my energy use.
IN FACT they just emailed me this :-  


> Based on your latest meter readings and the credit in your account, we're lowering your monthly payment amount from £110.94 to *£74.03*.


----------



## zora (Sep 27, 2022)

Just got an excited message from my flatmate about a text she got to apply for the rebate. 

Told her I'd be wary as likely a scam. Googled to link to a news article that would support my theory (I know that the discount will be applied directly by the energy companies), and sure enough the article contained an example of the very text message she'd received.


----------



## cybershot (Sep 27, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Eon have just emailed me to say my DD has gone up to £130 from £85. This includes the govt contribution. I’ve asked them to revert to £85.


Interesting, they had knocked £66 a month off mine


----------



## Looby (Sep 27, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Interesting, they had knocked £66 a month off mine


Yeah same, also Eon.


----------



## strung out (Sep 27, 2022)

Bulb recommends dropping my DD from £180 to £130, but I'm probably going to keep it as it is, in the hope I'll get a nice surprise in the spring and be able to withdraw some cash for holiday spending money.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 27, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Interesting, they had knocked £66 a month off mine



My aunt was chuffed with that:


----------



## moochedit (Sep 27, 2022)

zora said:


> Just got an excited message from my flatmate about a text she got to apply for the rebate.
> 
> Told her I'd be wary as likely a scam. Googled to link to a news article that would support my theory (I know that the discount will be applied directly by the energy companies), and sure enough the article contained an example of the very text message she'd received.


Yes i have had it twice now from 2 different numbers and dodgy looking url links. Forward them to 7726 (free scam report number).


----------



## moochedit (Sep 27, 2022)

moochedit said:


> I was paying about £100 a month at start of year which went up to £160 a month  and then was due to go up again in oct to about £270 a month (all figures combined gas and electric). However this latest increase was before the cap was frozen and whatever else truss has announced so i'm not sure if it will go down again? ( fingers crossed it does )


Just logged in and looks like it's going down to £180 a month although new bill not there yet.


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 27, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> My aunt was chuffed with that:
> 
> View attachment 344656


----------



## contadino (Sep 27, 2022)

xsunnysuex said:


> Yes. The living room is sun facing. It gets so hot.  We recently had the building painted. So there was scaffolding all around it.  Kept the sun out.  I wish we could keep it.   😂


It's rare that I'd recommend it, but that's an ideal use for Virginia Creeper/Boston Ivy.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 27, 2022)

contadino said:


> It's rare that I'd recommend it, but that's an ideal use for Virginia Creeper/Boston Ivy.


I'm on the 7th floor of a high rise.


----------



## _Russ_ (Sep 27, 2022)

Do you have curtains or blinds?


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 27, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Interesting, they had knocked £66 a month off mine


My mistake it was £118 but this is what they said in their email, a bit confusing. Naturally you can’t call them!

I think what they’re telling me is that my payment would be £185 but for the govt contribution


----------



## two sheds (Sep 27, 2022)

yes blocking off part of the window where the scaffolding was might help - or bottom half/three quarters so you still get some light in?

though with conservatories they say blinds inside are too late - the heat's already got in


----------



## planetgeli (Sep 27, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Interesting, they had knocked £66 a month off mine



They've knocked £100 off mine.

Safe to say Eon have saved up enough of our money to ride out any potential non-payment.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 27, 2022)

xsunnysuex said:


> I'm on the 7th floor of a high rise.


Lots of fertilizer.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 27, 2022)

This is how we’ll beat the bills. We have one each.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 27, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> This is how we’ll beat the bills. We have one each.
> 
> View attachment 344677



But, but, it has snow already on the inside!


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> But, but, it has snow already on the inside!


Is that a grey hair diss? 😡


----------



## _Russ_ (Sep 27, 2022)

I have a fleece onesie (onesy?) that came with the drysuit I bought for channel crossings, never used it under the drysuit as way too warm, but this winter could get some use indoors when Im sat at puter


----------



## cybershot (Sep 27, 2022)

ETA. I was wrong. Mine was worded the same.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 27, 2022)

cybershot said:


> This looks like the email you get sent a few days before your DD gets taken. A sort of reminder to ensure you’ve got enough money in your account to cover it.
> 
> I would assume you’d get another email with your new DD amount with the £66 off soon. Maybe after you’ve made your September payment. If you don’t contact them.


Hmm. I’ve emailed them to ask them to reduce it but I’m away at present which might complicate things


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> But, but, it has snow already on the inside!


It does tend to colder in Scotland. :brrr:


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 28, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Is that a grey hair diss? 😡



It's the lining that looks like snow, but I am sure you knew that was what I was referring too.

BTW, are they just tops, or full body suits like mine?


----------



## kabbes (Sep 28, 2022)

I’ve just realised that my energy company is exempt from the price cap (one of the companies exempt because they genuinely buy directly from renewable providers rather than greenwashing with carbon credits). I’m not sure that the additional cost is particularly bearable — it’s now creeping up towards 50p per kWh. 

I know the rest will all be priced the same at the moment but does anybody have any recommendations for electricity companies?


----------



## High Voltage (Sep 28, 2022)

I finally got bulb to switch our account to variable DD so through choice we're not building up a buffer it will be interesting to get out first bill with the £66 knocked off, by my reckoning this months'll be around £10'odd


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 28, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I’ve just realised that my energy company is exempt from the price cap (one of the companies exempt because they genuinely buy directly from renewable providers rather than greenwashing with carbon credits). I’m not sure that the additional cost is particularly bearable — it’s now creeping up towards 50p per kWh.
> 
> I know the rest will all be priced the same at the moment but does anybody have any recommendations for electricity companies?



You'll not find much difference in prices amongst the main players, so its really down to customer service, and for that I can in no way recommend OVO.

If it's creeping up to 50p per kwh, that's sounds expensive unless you have very low standing charges, here's the details of the 'Energy Price Guarantee' -



> *If you’re on a standard variable tariff*
> The average unit price for dual fuel customers paying by direct debit will be limited to 34.0p/kWh for electricity and 10.3p/kWh for gas, inclusive of VAT, from 1 October.
> *Standing charges*
> Average standing charges for customers on default tariffs will remain capped in line with the levels set (in Great Britain) by Ofgem for the default tariff cap from 1 October, at 46p per day for electricity and 28p per day for gas, for a typical dual fuel customer paying by direct debit.







__





						Energy Price Guarantee
					






					www.gov.uk


----------



## kabbes (Sep 28, 2022)

Yeah, it is definitely expensive, and the standing charge is the same as the cap (46p per day)

None of the electricity companies look like people I particularly want to be involved with, but it’s got to be better than paying an extra £70 per month just for the privilege of being with Good Energy.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 28, 2022)

You could go with EDF or whatever, and then donate e.g. £30 a month to a company of your choosing.


----------



## AverageJoe (Sep 28, 2022)

😭😭😭


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's the lining that looks like snow, but I am sure you knew that was what I was referring too.
> 
> BTW, are they just tops, or full body suits like mine?











						Navy Oodie | Wearable Hooded Blanket
					

Join the Navy.... Oodie team, where we will sail the seven seas of comfort together! The Oodie is an extra large hooded blanket that is designed to keep you extremely warm.




					theoodie.co.uk


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 28, 2022)

AverageJoe said:


> View attachment 344742😭😭😭



Seems you use more than double the average amount of electricty. Do you have an electric car?


----------



## Cerv (Sep 28, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I’ve just realised that my energy company is exempt from the price cap (one of the companies exempt because they genuinely buy directly from renewable providers rather than greenwashing with carbon credits). I’m not sure that the additional cost is particularly bearable — it’s now creeping up towards 50p per kWh.
> 
> I know the rest will all be priced the same at the moment but does anybody have any recommendations for electricity companies?


I've just logged into my account to check, and Octopus are still running their £100 referral sign up offer (£50 each to the new sign up & to the existing customer). 
so if any of your mates are already on Octopus you could ask for a referral code.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 28, 2022)

Cerv said:


> I've just logged into my account to check, and Octopus are still running their £100 referral sign up offer (£50 each to the new sign up & to the existing customer).
> so if any of your mates are already on Octopus you could ask for a referral code.


Thanks for that.

I just went to have a look and they (and I suspect it’s not going to just be them) won’t even quote for me without a one-to-one phone call right now.  I suspect it’s quite complicated to switch at the moment, and I’ve somewhat fucked up by not doing it a few months back.  It’s a bit of a problem — my DD has been set to £350 per month, and that has created a surplus but I’ve no reason to think the surplus won’t now be used up over the winter.  It looks like moving to the capped price is likely to save something like £100 per month over the winter.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 28, 2022)

Cerv said:


> I've just logged into my account to check, and Octopus are still running their £100 referral sign up offer (£50 each to the new sign up & to the existing customer).
> so if any of your mates are already on Octopus you could ask for a referral code.


I’m going to give them a ring — happy to use your referral if you want to take advantage of that £50?


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 28, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Navy Oodie | Wearable Hooded Blanket
> 
> 
> Join the Navy.... Oodie team, where we will sail the seven seas of comfort together! The Oodie is an extra large hooded blanket that is designed to keep you extremely warm.
> ...


Mrs Q has one of these funnily enough also on your roundabout recommendation though she will never know. I was asking for Xmas present ideas pre the Lurgy and you suggested searching for "something Scottish" despite (or possibly because) she's a city girl she loves visiting Scotland. This is what that search threw up. Hers is black and she loves it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 28, 2022)

Cold enough to start wearing my fingerless gloves again this week. That’ll be me till spring.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 28, 2022)

I heartily recommend getting one. Don’t pay full price though. They’re pretty steep. (Although not as steep as AverageJoe ‘s bill! 😱 - and every penny the energy companies don’t get is a Good Thing).


----------



## chandlerp (Sep 28, 2022)

You can get cheaper versions of the oodie on Amazon for about £20.  we've got 3 and they're great.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 28, 2022)

Eon unwilling to reduce a DD raised by £100 before the contribution (£33 raise after contribution from govt).

Will have to cancel the DD I think as I’m £150 in credit already and will not be using my heating this winter.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 28, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I’ve just realised that my energy company is exempt from the price cap (one of the companies exempt because they genuinely buy directly from renewable providers rather than greenwashing with carbon credits). I’m not sure that the additional cost is particularly bearable — it’s now creeping up towards 50p per kWh.
> 
> I know the rest will all be priced the same at the moment but does anybody have any recommendations for electricity companies?


I didn't know some companies are exempt.

I don't really understand the logic.

My understanding is that the price of energy has gone up because of supply & demand effects - it's not that the cost of producing/extracting the energy has gone up. Hence the big fossil fuel extraction companies' profits are up, because they can charge higher prices without their basic costs really changing.

Surely the same is true of those generating "green" energy? The cost of producing it hasn't gone up, but the price they can sell it at has.

Of course it all looks different from a "supplier" company point of view because they just buy from the extractors and sell to the consumer. Their costs have actually gone up.

But whether the energy they are buying is from a wind farm or a gas fired power station, the cost is determined by the same thing - the inflated market price ... isn't it? Is there some reason they have to bear additional costs, compared to those not buying/selling exclusively green energy?


----------



## kabbes (Sep 28, 2022)

I agree, it doesn’t make much sense. Here’s what they say:









						Good Energy's Standard Variable Tariff | Good Energy
					

Find out more about what the energy price cap is, how it works and why our standard variable tariff is exempt from it.




					www.goodenergy.co.uk
				




“…after it was first announced, a government committee recommended that there should be an exemption to the price cap for suppliers which contribute more than others to investing in renewables. After a thorough review by Ofgem, Good Energy was granted such an exemption. They agreed that we support renewables beyond other suppliers and that our costs are materially higher as a result.”

So it looks like maybe it initially made sense, because green energy suppliers faced additional input costs, but now they are flying under the radar with a grandfathered exemption, despite no longer having additional costs?

They do provide a pretty thorough attempt at a justification on that webpage, to be fair, regardless of whether or not you or I agree with it.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 28, 2022)

Whether or not a price cap is imposed on them, it seems like their business model is going to have to be based on hoping that a significant proportion of their customers are prepared to pay over-the-odds for allegedly greener energy (or that they don't notice they are). Seems a bit shaky to me. If sufficient nos of customers start switching away, I guess we'll find out whether they actually can afford to cap their own prices in order to compete.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Whether or not a price cap is imposed on them, it seems like their business model is going to have to be based on hoping that a significant proportion of their customers are prepared to pay over-the-odds for allegedly greener energy (or that they don't notice they are). Seems a bit shaky to me. If sufficient nos of customers start switching away, I guess we'll find out whether they actually can afford to cap their own prices in order to compete.


I didn’t mind paying more when prices generally were at 25% of current levels. But paying £20 extra a month is a very different proposition to paying £100 extra a month.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 28, 2022)

Same with me for Ecotricity - further complicated by having my solar with them. At least them not being subject to the cap meant they didn't go to the wall like so many.


----------



## AverageJoe (Sep 28, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Seems you use more than double the average amount of electricty. Do you have an electric car?


Nope. Nothing special like that.

Just a three bedroom house which is pretty warm anyway so we don't use the heating that much. 

The usual TVs, laptops etc for a family of four. Fish tank and two vivariums. 

I'll take a reading tomorrow and submit that and see what happens.


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## kabbes (Sep 28, 2022)

AverageJoe said:


> Fish tank and two vivariums.


That sounds potentially like one cause?


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 28, 2022)

I was expecting pottery kilns or similar with that level of usage ...


----------



## AverageJoe (Sep 28, 2022)

kabbes said:


> That sounds potentially like one cause?


Possibly but I dunno, it's pretty high isn't it. Over £300 month. 

Can't see them making _too_ much of a difference. 

Ah well, I'll just have to graft harder.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 28, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I was expecting pottery kilns or similar with that level of usage ...


To be fair, we use about 40% more electricity than that and we don’t even have kids.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 29, 2022)

Had an email from British Gas reminding me that I have smart meters and therefore I don't need to submit any meter readings this week. I suspect they are probably being overwhelmed with a rush at the moment.


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## gentlegreen (Sep 29, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Had an email from British Gas reminding me that I have smart meters and therefore I don't need to submit any meter readings this week. I suspect they are probably being overwhelmed with a rush at the moment.


One advantage of being with a bankrupt supplier (Bulb) ...
I may yet give them a reading for tomorrow - or I may estimate it.
I'm all set to be charged less than the £66 subsidy.
Somehow, Schrödinger -style, thinking about my energy use has given me my smallest monthly usage in years.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 29, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> One advantage of being with a bankrupt supplier (Bulb) ...
> I may yet give them a reading for tomorrow - or I may estimate it.
> I'm all set to be charged less than the £66 subsidy.
> Somehow, Schrödinger -style, thinking about my energy use has given me my smallest monthly usage in years.


With a bit of luck you might have got lost in the system


----------



## two sheds (Sep 29, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> One advantage of being with a bankrupt supplier (Bulb) ...
> I may yet give them a reading for tomorrow - or I may estimate it.
> I'm all set to be charged less than the £66 subsidy.
> Somehow, Schrödinger -style, thinking about my energy use has given me my smallest monthly usage in years.



Yes a bit early to tell but my usage this month is well down from last September. Partially I think from powering down the computer when I'm away for a while and replacing wasteful fridge, but also scheduling cooking more when the sun's shining so it's powered from the solar panels.


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 29, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes a bit early to tell but my usage this month is well down from last September. Partially I think from powering down the computer when I'm away for a while and replacing wasteful fridge, but also scheduling cooking more when the sun's shining so it's powered from the solar panels.


I'm looking forward to having solar - so embarrassing when several of my neighbours have it - but I'm not staying here for much longer.


----------



## strung out (Sep 29, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> One advantage of being with a bankrupt supplier (Bulb) ...
> I may yet give them a reading for tomorrow - or I may estimate it.
> I'm all set to be charged less than the £66 subsidy.
> Somehow, Schrödinger -style, thinking about my energy use has given me my smallest monthly usage in years.


I'm with Bulb but have a smart meter, so they just emailed me telling me they've got my reading for September - £85 of leccy and gas apparently, £444 in credit.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 29, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes a bit early to tell but my usage this month is well down from last September. Partially I think from powering down the computer when I'm away for a while and replacing wasteful fridge, but also scheduling cooking more when the sun's shining so it's powered from the solar panels.



I can't make comparisons to last year, because of the massive over estimating on the eclectic, but my usage ex-VAT in August was £53.90, and I am on target for Sept. being £40 despite needing lights on more, that's mainly down to using the air-flyer instead of the oven, and the new boiler just heating the hot water I need, instead of heating a tank.

The new fridge freezer turned-up today, so I am looking forward to seeing how much that saves me over the coming days.


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## two sheds (Sep 29, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I'm looking forward to having solar - so embarrassing when several of my neighbours have it - but I'm not staying here for much longer.


Am reluctant to mention it really because most people particularly renters don't/can't get it so constantly bringing it up could be annoying.  I was thinking of adding to one of the solar threads so only people with them/interested see the posts.


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## gentlegreen (Sep 29, 2022)

strung out said:


> I'm with Bulb but have a smart meter, so they just emailed me telling me they've got my reading for September - £85 of leccy and gas apparently, £444 in credit.


Bulb will let you reduce payments to about £40 - I did that to get my credit down.
I'm determined to prove my diligent meter reading and spreadsheet is better than a smart meter.
Roll-on solar power - and if my new place makes it sensible, perhaps a small wind turbine as compensation for the days when it's too windy to go sailing ...


----------



## existentialist (Sep 29, 2022)

Just had an account update from my supplier (Bulb). I'm paying them £103 a month, but my account is currently £567 in credit. I think I'll wait the winter out, and then do something about it - it seems clear to me that I'm overpaying, particularly as I don't plan to be using *that* much heating this winter. One of the advantages of the bachelor lifestyle - there's only one of us to worry about caving in and turning up the heat


----------



## strung out (Sep 29, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Just had an account update from my supplier (Bulb). I'm paying them £103 a month, but my account is currently £567 in credit. I think I'll wait the winter out, and then do something about it - it seems clear to me that I'm overpaying, particularly as I don't plan to be using *that* much heating this winter. One of the advantages of the bachelor lifestyle - there's only one of us to worry about caving in and turning up the heat


Yeah, I'm going to leave my Bulb credit where it is for now, and keep my payments at the current level. If I come out in spring with significant credit still in the bank, I'll use it as spending money for my New York holiday in April.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 29, 2022)

Is there a way to change supplier without calling someone?


----------



## strung out (Sep 29, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Is there a way to change supplier without calling someone?


Most suppliers aren't accepting automated switches at the moment due to the volatility in the energy market. You'll almost certainly need to call and do it.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 29, 2022)

Just had my estimated forecast.

Gas up £1 per month
Electric up £7 per month

Doesn't say if that includes the £66 off from the gov.


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## weltweit (Sep 29, 2022)

Just got 4 weeks from £50.00 electric which is more than I have managed for a while.


----------



## andysays (Sep 30, 2022)

Much (or even all; I haven't been keeping up with the thread) of this has probably been posted already, but a useful summary here

Energy price cap: Three things to do before your bills rise​


----------



## High Voltage (Sep 30, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Bulb will let you reduce payments to about £40 - I did that to get my credit down.
> I'm determined to prove my diligent meter reading and spreadsheet is better than a smart meter.
> Roll-on solar power - and if my new place makes it sensible, perhaps a small wind turbine as compensation for the days when it's too windy to go sailing ...


Bulb can put you onto a variable DD so if you've built up a balance it uses that first then when that's gone it takes the full amount from the specified bank account

This is what we've got because (back in this thread) I found that whilst my balance is protected WHEN bulb eventually do go through the hoop it doesn't get transferred to the new supplier or something, end result is everyone ends up paying extra, which isn't right


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 30, 2022)

Has anyone with OVO received an update on the new rates from tomorrow? 

I've not received an e-mail and I can't see anything on their site, which shows a lack of courtesy to their customers.


----------



## emanymton (Sep 30, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Has anyone with OVO received an update on the new rates from tomorrow?
> 
> I've not received an e-mail and I can't see anything on their site, which shows a lack of courtesy to their customers.


Not quite the same but I only heard from SSE on Tue. 

Had a bit of a panic as I thought the new DD rate the gave included the reduction for the £400 form the government. But there was a separate attachment that said they will credit this to my account a few days after the DD goes out, which wasn't how I thought it was meant to work. But I assume OVO will do the same.


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## High Voltage (Sep 30, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Has anyone with OVO received an update on the new rates from tomorrow?
> 
> I've not received an e-mail and I can't see anything on their site, which shows a lack of courtesy to their customers.


Given their track record you might want to check that they're not charging you an extra £66 / month instead of giving you the government subsidy


----------



## moochedit (Sep 30, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Has anyone with OVO received an update on the new rates from tomorrow?
> 
> I've not received an e-mail and I can't see anything on their site, which shows a lack of courtesy to their customers.


I had an email saying my DD would reduce but no further email yet. It did show a new price when i logged in a few days ago though but new statement wasn't generated yet.


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## gentlegreen (Sep 30, 2022)

I just gave Bulb my final reading for September. 105.7 kwh - 3.5 per day because the last reading was estimated.
My actual average for September is more like 4.7.
My calculation for September says £51.12, but it usually ends up being about a fiver more.
I was £130.36 in credit, but they've decided to take £74.03 - add the £66 and I should end up over £200 in credit so I may well choose to reduce my payments to the minimum.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Sep 30, 2022)

bellaozzydog said:


> Just got an email from EON
> 
> My gas and electricity is going up from 185 quid a month (which I’ve been paying for two years) to……..150 Quid a month
> 
> I am now a really confused


Just got my bill for house 



I have no fucking idea what’s going on

And 5 months of flat (smart meter)


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## MickiQ (Sep 30, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Has anyone with OVO received an update on the new rates from tomorrow?
> 
> I've not received an e-mail and I can't see anything on their site, which shows a lack of courtesy to their customers.


I've No Idea about OVO but I have had my new rates from British Gas





Presumably you will be afflicted with comparable levels of extortion and thievery


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I've No Idea about OVO but I have had my new rates from British Gas
> 
> View attachment 345214
> 
> ...



I've finally got the e-mail from OVO.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I've No Idea about OVO but I have had my new rates from British Gas
> 
> View attachment 345214
> 
> ...


Are you on standard tariff?


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## MickiQ (Sep 30, 2022)

cesare said:


> Are you on standard tariff?


Yes


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## cesare (Sep 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Yes


Me too. Looks like their prices have dropped then because they were significantly higher when I checked online earlier. I'll edit to add the prices from this morning for comparison.

Edit: on the morning of 30 September 2022 the standard tariff was:

Elec 38.655 per kwh
S/C 38.487 per day

Gas 11.31 per kwh
S/C 33.54 per day

_________________________________________

Also, my (flat on sale) Flex Avro tariff (now operated by Octopus) on the morning of 30 September 2022 was:

Elec 29.63 per kwh
S/C 31.88 per day

Gas 7.51 per kwh
S/C 27.22 per day

Substantial difference to BG   Not sure if they updated their rates before BG. I'd better check that next.


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## _Russ_ (Oct 1, 2022)

Been thinking about this charge cap this morning, OK its simple enough to understand a cap on the average bill, but how the fuck is the average bill being worked out? retrospectively?, predictions based on previous periods?, does anyone even know?, seems open (almost designed so) to abuse by the suppliers.

Seems to me with this methodology a company cant even tell you what you are going to pay per KWH till after they charge you

elbows  ???


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## existentialist (Oct 1, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Been thinking about this charge cap this morning, OK its simple enough to understand a cap on the average bill, but how the fuck is the average bill being worked out? retrospectively?, predictions based on previous periods?, does anyone even know?, seems open (almost designed so) to abuse by the suppliers.
> 
> Seems to me with this methodology a company cant even tell you what you are going to pay per KWH till after they charge you


The "average bill" thing is simply a marketing term being used (mainly) by the government to quantify what they're doing.

The actual cap is a per-unit price cap.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 1, 2022)

cesare said:


> Me too. Looks like their prices have dropped then because they were significantly higher when I checked online earlier. I'll edit to add the prices from this morning for comparison.
> 
> Edit: on the morning of 30 September 2022 the standard tariff was:
> 
> ...



Those Flex Avro tariffs look like the pre-increase ones, as prices should only be going up from today.

The variations in those BG ones are very odd, and if they are charging under 28p per kwh for eclectic, that's bloody cheap! I've just tried to get a quote from them, but they are not quoting for new customers.   

Energy Price Guarantee says:



> The average unit price for dual fuel customers paying by direct debit will be limited to *34.0p/kWh for electricity and 10.3p/kWh for gas*, inclusive of VAT, from 1 October.
> 
> Average standing charges for customers on default tariffs will remain capped in line with the levels set (in Great Britain) by Ofgem for the default tariff cap from 1 October, at *46p per day for electricity and 28p per day for gas*, for a typical dual fuel customer paying by direct debit.   LINK



I am was a bit miffed that OVO is charging 35.31p kwh for electric, but the standing charge is only 42.67p per day, so with my low electric use that should mean I am 60p pm better off than if they used the exact figures in the Energy Price Guarantee.


----------



## andysays (Oct 1, 2022)

existentialist said:


> The "average bill" thing is simply a marketing term being used (mainly) by the government to quantify what they're doing.
> 
> The actual cap is a per-unit price cap.


See also

Truss wrong to say energy bills capped at £2,500​


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 1, 2022)

existentialist said:


> The "average bill" thing is simply a marketing term being used (mainly) by the government to quantify what they're doing.
> 
> The actual cap is a per-unit price cap.


Yes, sadly basic energy and power is beyond most people's understanding - and I bet you would struggle to find anyone in government who does - even Coffey.
Some loon on PT was quoting increases that would have applied only to people who had somehow fixed their energy tariff in the 1980s ...
I struggled to make any sense of the published figures until they actually published the price per KWH.
27p to 34p is 25 percent.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 1, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Been thinking about this charge cap this morning, OK its simple enough to understand a cap on the average bill, but how the fuck is the average bill being worked out? retrospectively?, predictions based on previous periods?, does anyone even know?, seems open (almost designed so) to abuse by the suppliers.



According to Ofgem, the average British household has 2.4 people living in it and uses *2,900 kWh of electricity and 12,000 kWh of gas*. This works out at 242 kWh of electricity and 1,000 kWh of gas per month.

It should be easy enough to compare your annual usage to that, mine over the last year was approx. 75% of the average, so £2,500 - 25% = £1875.

And, I was very close with that estimate, which I made when the Energy Price Guarantee was announced, because in OVO's e-mail they estimated my next 12 months to be £1,888 - although it will in fact be a lot less with the measures I am taking. 



> Seems to me with this methodology a company cant even tell you what you are going to pay per KWH till after they charge you



You should have had an e-mail, or letter, showing the new rates, your annual usage & charges.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 1, 2022)

Talking about savings, for electric in August I averaged 4.84kwh per day, in Sept. that's down to 4.46kwh despite the darker mornings & evenings, saving 0.38kwh daily or 11.4khw for the month - this mainly reflects using the new air-flyer from the middle of the month rather than electric oven.

Oct. is going to be interesting, I am expecting decent saving with the new fridge/freezer, it's first full day of use was yesterday, resulting in just 3.15kwh being used - the average will be higher once using the washing machine comes into play, but if I can bring the 150kwh/£44.23 used in August down to around 110kwh/£38.84 in Oct., I'll be saving over £5pm despite the rate increase or equal to a monthly saving of over £14.00pm off the new rate, which I'll be very happy with.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Talking about savings, for electric in August I averaged 4.84kwh per day, in Sept. that's down to 4.46kwh despite the darker mornings & evenings, saving 0.38kwh daily or 11.4khw for the month - this mainly reflects using the new air-flyer from the middle of the month rather than electric oven.
> 
> Oct. is going to be interesting, I am expecting decent saving with the new fridge/freezer, it's first full day of use was yesterday, resulting in just 3.15kwh being used - the average will be higher once using the washing machine comes into play, but if I can bring the 150kwh/£44.23 used in August down to around 110kwh/£38.84 in Oct., I'll be saving over £5pm despite the rate increase or equal to a monthly saving of over £14.00pm off the new rate, which I'll be very happy with.


I am increasingly thinking that replacing my old, rather tatty fridge/freezer with a newer, more economical model would be a good thing to do. So thanks a bunch


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 1, 2022)

existentialist said:


> The "average bill" thing is simply a marketing term being used (mainly) by the government to quantify what they're doing.
> 
> The actual cap is a per-unit price cap.




Like “affordable housing” it’s just a way to make it sound less shit.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 1, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I am increasingly thinking that replacing my old, rather tatty fridge/freezer with a newer, more economical model would be a good thing to do. So thanks a bunch


You could always benefit from the unheated parts of your home by using that instead of the fridge.
I'm starting to think about what I could do with wire mesh - and perhaps even a small fan bringing in cold air from outside.

My "negative" energy bill just arrived - somewhat galling that the standing charge amounts to a third of it.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 1, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> You could always benefit from the unheated parts of your home by using that instead of the fridge.
> I'm starting to think about what I could do with wire mesh - and perhaps even a small fan bringing in cold air from outside.
> 
> My "negative" energy bill just arrived - somewhat galling that the standing charge amounts to a third of it.


There's no part of my home that is unheated to the extent that it'd be good for storing food!

Particularly since I now have a neighbour downstairs again. So long as I maintain my flat at a lower temperature than hers, I'm benefiting from heat leakage from her to me


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I've finally got the e-mail from OVO.
> 
> View attachment 345222


Ouch. I'm with utility warehouse and mine are

Electricity sc 30.361p
kWh 33.017p

Gas sc 10.231p
Kwh 10.236p


----------



## Leafster (Oct 1, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> You could always benefit from the unheated parts of your home by using that instead of the fridge.
> I'm starting to think about what I could do with wire mesh - and perhaps even a small fan bringing in cold air from outside.
> 
> My "negative" energy bill just arrived - somewhat galling that the standing charge amounts to a third of it.


When I was a small child my grandparents didn't have a fridge. Instead they had something they called a 'safe' which was an outdoor cupboard on the shady side of the house with fine mesh sides.

Wouldn't it be better for you to make something like that rather than bringing the cold air into the house?


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 1, 2022)

Leafster said:


> When I was a small child my grandparents didn't have a fridge. Instead they had something they called a 'safe' which was an outdoor cupboard on the shady side of the house with fine mesh sides.
> 
> Wouldn't it be better for you to make something like that rather than bringing the cold air into the house?


Mostly it's about convenience - my bathroom / kitchen is draughty in any case and without a fridge I tend to keep veggies near the window ...


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 1, 2022)

andysays said:


> See also
> 
> Truss wrong to say energy bills capped at £2,500​


Yes the linked explanation is quite straightforward,  but it cant be as simple as set unit price cap without making the average price cap statement a lie.
No company can know in advance what the average bill is going to be next month as it doesnt know what usage will occur so will be guessing its unit price based on reaching the limit stated as an average price cap.

You cant say the unit price is a set rate and their is a set average cap on the monthly/yearly fee without one of those statements being a lie or the energy supplier purposely charging a unit rate thats so low as it definately cant breach the yearly cap


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 1, 2022)

Leafster said:


> When I was a small child my grandparents didn't have a fridge. Instead they had something they called a 'safe' which was an outdoor cupboard on the shady side of the house with fine mesh sides.
> 
> Wouldn't it be better for you to make something like that rather than bringing the cold air into the house?


My Dad used to keep his bottles of Newcastle Brown in the Fish Pond


----------



## existentialist (Oct 1, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Yes the linked explanation is quite straightforward,  but it cant be as simple as set unit price cap without making the average price cap statement a lie.
> No company can know in advance what the average bill is going to be next month as it doesnt know what usage will occur so will be guessing its unit price based on reaching the limit stated as an average price cap.
> 
> You cant say the unit price is a set rate and their is a set average cap on the monthly/yearly fee without one of those statements being a lie or the energy supplier purposely charging a unit rate thats so low as it definately cant breach the yearly cap


The average price cap statement is a lie.


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## two sheds (Oct 1, 2022)

Leafster said:


> When I was a small child my grandparents didn't have a fridge. Instead they had something they called a 'safe' which was an outdoor cupboard on the shady side of the house with fine mesh sides.
> 
> Wouldn't it be better for you to make something like that rather than bringing the cold air into the house?


Yep we had one of those, in the (small) pantry which again was reasonably cool. I wanted one of them for years and finally got one 15 years ago  They're good for keeping cheese and vege type things although I tend to keep them in the fridge. Despite their name - I knew it as a meat safe - I wouldn't trust keeping meat in them.

Have said before when I was at uni I had a small cabinet lined with metal on the inside and the body was made of expanded polystyrene. You poured water in a chamber in the top and evaporation kept the thing below room temperature. It worked ok as I recall. A container with a wet tea towel over it would keep things below room temperature but is a bit temporary. 

I did have a hole dug into the kitchen floor and slate lined when the renovations were done. I ought to check what temperature it keeps but I've never really used it since I was given a fridge and since then have the newer one and freezer.

I'd get a small energy efficient fridge if it's only one person and they're not vege.


----------



## story (Oct 1, 2022)

Here’s mine from Shell. Bonkers.
I’ve been in credit for several months, still got about 230 of credit in there.


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## Leafster (Oct 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yep we had one of those, in the (small) pantry which again was reasonably cool. I wanted one of them for years and finally got one 15 years ago  They're good for keeping cheese and vege type things although I tend to keep them in the fridge. Despite their name - I knew it as a meat safe - I wouldn't trust keeping meat in them.
> 
> Have said before when I was at uni I had a small cabinet lined with metal on the inside and the body was made of expanded polystyrene. You poured water in a chamber in the top and evaporation kept the thing below room temperature. It worked ok as I recall. A container with a wet tea towel over it would keep things below room temperature but is a bit temporary.
> 
> ...


Now you come to mention it, it probably was called a meat safe. I suspect it was shortened to just 'safe' when they spoke about as it was the only one they had.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 1, 2022)

existentialist said:


> The average price cap statement is a lie.


The average price cap statement is true, it's based on OFGEM's calculation of what the average household used in the last year, it's just a benchmark figure, used as a guide. 

To say that's the maximum any household will be charged is the lie.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2022)

I don’t understand how we’re apparently using so much more than the national average of electricity. We don’t have electric hot water or an electric shower, even. I understand some of the excess but there’s about half our usage that makes no sense to me. 

Is it even remotely possible that our meter could be borked?  Is that a thing that happens?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 1, 2022)

I'd get a power meter only £15 or so they should tell you consumption in W and 24-hour consumption in kWh. I've found mine really useful.


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## story (Oct 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I'd get a power meter only £15 or so they should tell you consumption in W and 24-hour consumption in kWh. I've found mine really useful.



Which one did you get?



One of the problems these days is that there is so much choice for everything. I read the articles, I read the 1 star reviews….


----------



## story (Oct 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I'd get a power meter only £15 or so they should tell you consumption in W and 24-hour consumption in kWh. I've found mine really useful.



Which one did you get?



One of the problems these days is that there is so much choice for everything. I read the articles, I read the 1 star reviews….


----------



## 2hats (Oct 1, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I don’t understand how we’re apparently using so much more than the national average of electricity. We don’t have electric hot water or an electric shower, even. I understand some of the excess but there’s about half our usage that makes no sense to me.
> 
> Is it even remotely possible that our meter could be borked?  Is that a thing that happens?


Meters can indeed be borked.

At a previous place I noticed that my apparent electricity consumption suddenly started rocketing one day having been consistent for months and years prior (I used to log meter readings several times per week). Nothing was even on and it still was ticking over. I cut everything at the consumer unit and still the meter claimed to be measuring something. Clearly broken. Engineers came to look and agreed there must be a problem. They fitted a separate calibrated meter alongside the original one for a couple of weeks after which they officially admitted the meter was faulty and replaced it, cancelled the previous bill and provided a payment for the inconvenience.


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2022)

I’ll be gutted if I turn out to have been playing twice as much for electricity as I should have been for years on end. My fault for not keeping a close eye on it before recent rocketing prices. I never knew what was “normal” before, though.


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## two sheds (Oct 1, 2022)

story said:


> Which one did you get?
> 
> 
> 
> One of the problems these days is that there is so much choice for everything. I read the articles, I read the 1 star reviews….


This is the design but there seem to be lots with that design but made by different people - possibly sourced from china and different company badges on them. Needs a UK plug as this one has: 









						UK Plug-in Electricity Power Consumption Meter Energy Monitor Watt Kwh Analyzer  | eBay
					

Total KWh and Cost Display: 0.0-9999KWh, 0.0-9999COST. Overload Setting: when current load power goes beyond the max. load power, the letters "OVERLOAD" on LCD will keep blinking to remind you. Plug: 3-pin UK Plug.



					www.ebay.co.uk
				




On Amazon they all seem out of stock or £27. 

You just plug it in and it shows the consumption in W - you may need a torch though it's not bright. Let it run for a day (say for a fridge) and press Mode and it shows consumption in kWh.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2022)

From my utterly useless British Gas app. (It’s up for September because my readings are normally on the 15th of the month and in September I submitted readings on 15th _and_ 30th). 

Note how they admit to estimating June, July and August despite the FACT that I send in readings EVERY MONTH.  This is the shit we have to put up with.  But there’s no way of actually telling them that. You get sent in circles trying to message them.


----------



## 2hats (Oct 1, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I’ll be gutted if I turn out to have been playing twice as much for electricity as I should have been for years on end. My fault for not keeping a close eye on it before recent rocketing prices. I never knew what was “normal” before, though.


You could of course just look at the ratings of the equipment you have connected, use a socket power meter, or an inductive "smart" meter at the consumer unit to sanity check the main meter over a few days. Or alternatively, simply just cut all power for a few hours and see if the meter is still clocking up phantom juice.

I did all of the those at the time (just checked my notes). The vampire reading overnight, with power off at the consumer unit, suggested a constant 24/7 floor of 1.2kWh (red 'flow rate' LED flashed relentlessly every ~3 seconds). The faulty meter was overclocking by a factor of 3-10x in typical use versus the official 'check meter' reading (varied widely from day to day). My notes also remind me that one of the visiting engineers told me that the particular model of meter that I had (unfortunately didn't record the details) apparently had a bad reputation as regards breaking down and mis-metering.

Moral: always worth periodically sanity checking your meters.


----------



## cesare (Oct 1, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I don’t understand how we’re apparently using so much more than the national average of electricity. We don’t have electric hot water or an electric shower, even. I understand some of the excess but there’s about half our usage that makes no sense to me.
> 
> Is it even remotely possible that our meter could be borked?  Is that a thing that happens?


For years I was trying to tell Scottish Power and then subsequently British Gas that there was NO WAY I could be using that much electricity and begging them for a new meter as mine was very old. No joy, they wouldn't entertain it. Then I moved to another supplier (E.ON I think) and within what seemed like nanoseconds they'd changed the meter and my bills had halved.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2022)

No, I didn’t find the help I needed in the help and support section. The help and support section directed me to message an advisor!


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> This is the design but there seem to be lots with that design but made by different people - possibly sourced from china and different company badges on them. Needs a UK plug as this one has:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Blimey that's cheap - I paid £17.99 for mine on Amazon ...

I'm going to see how cheaply I can set up proper data-logging


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> This is the design but there seem to be lots with that design but made by different people - possibly sourced from china and different company badges on them. Needs a UK plug as this one has:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheers, I have bought one.  Let’s see how it goes.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 1, 2022)

progressively turning off stuff at the consumer unit and checking what consumption is does sound a useful way, too.


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 1, 2022)

> I'm going to see how cheaply I can set up proper data-logging



How will you do that? buy a monitor (expensive) for each appliance or just log 24 hours and move it to the next appliance?


----------



## cesare (Oct 1, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Cheers, I have bought one.  Let’s see how it goes.


I've bought a similar one too, now that we've moved there are a couple of inherited older appliances that I'm a bit concerned about.


----------



## cesare (Oct 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> progressively turning off stuff at the consumer unit and checking what consumption is does sound a useful way, too.


Yes for sure but (for me) I don't want to turn off the fridge/freezer for 24 hours if I can measure it another way.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 1, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> How will you do that? buy a monitor (expensive) for each appliance or just log 24 hours and move it to the next appliance?


I was disappointed that the cheap plug-in ones don't do that anyway ...
I'm thinking about the future where I want to be logging all sorts of things continually like health metrics ..
Mostly it's just for the sake of doing it.

Ballpark figures are fine in the real world and I have those for very regular habits.

What I will probably focus on for the moment is thermostatic control and timeswitches...

The university where I used to work even had its own weather station for a while ...


----------



## Supine (Oct 1, 2022)

My octopus bill is £230 per month. One page of their website is saying this will be reduced to £166 in october. On another page it is suggesting an increase to £387. Shambles


----------



## weltweit (Oct 1, 2022)

Actually I was wrong. 

It was £58.00 that lasted me 4 weeks. so £14.50 per week. 

I just started with a fresh £50.00 which at £14.50pw should last me 3.45 weeks. 

Not so great.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 1, 2022)

With prepayment card tech, are the rates always being adjusted or is there a lot of scamming ?
Where do people actually buy them ?


----------



## weltweit (Oct 1, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> With prepayment card tech, are the rates always being adjusted or is there a lot of scamming ?
> Where do people actually buy them ?


I have prepaid keys for electric and gas and I put money on them at the post office section of my local shop.

There is no way of knowing how many units I have bought, only the amount I have paid.  The only way I can estimate how many units I have bought is by seeing how many days/weeks the amount lasts.

It does seem that I am getting less for my money recently, but it is hard to know by how much, because it doesn't seem consistent.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 1, 2022)

My (£567 in credit) account has just been credited with the £66 from Truss. It all feels a bit unreal.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 2, 2022)

existentialist said:


> My (£567 in credit) account has just been credited with the £66 from Truss. It all feels a bit unreal.



I've just checked, and for some reason OVO customers paying by DD, are getting it as a refund to bank accounts rather than a credit to the bills. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 2, 2022)

This is worrying - and having had a shouting match online with someone who was linking to all sorts of gobbledegook from government websites that I couldn't make head nor tail of to justify their claim that energy costs were about to rise by 68 percent, I fully expect people to get into all sorts of trouble ...









						Martin Lewis warns 'there is no £2,500 cap on energy bills'
					

The consumer campaigner has warned people not to think they can keep the heating on all the time in winter without being charged more than £2,500




					www.chroniclelive.co.uk
				




And look at this guff from an "energy expert" from the same rag   :-



> How much it will cost to put your kettle on to boil from October 1 ?
> 
> "With an estimated 95% of British families boiling their kettle at least once a day and 40% of families more than five times a day, the exact costs will vary on the size/power rating of your kettle plus your electric tariff cost," says Matthew Jenkins, energy expert at MyJobQuote. *"The average two litre kettle has a power rating of three kilowatts per hour (kWh),* although it must be noted that it will never take a whole hour to boil your kettle! Instead, boiling a kettle for an average of four minutes uses 0.225kWh."


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 2, 2022)

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I do think the government will have to do something. If only because of the threat to what little remains of the social peace. It's clear the government's cap is simply not going to be enough. There is no way they can allow half the country to sit in the cold and the dark, if only becaise of the effect on productivity, not health or wellbeing. The question is how long will they try and tough it out. 

But then, I could be wrong


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 2, 2022)

Not that I'm ready to invest in solar, but I thought I ought to start considering my needs for when I am.

I found a site monitoring local installations ...
A local 18KW installation produced 42.5 KWH yesterday - making 2.36 per kw installed - so I could have supplied all my needs with a little over 2kw installed capacity...





						Bristol Energy Coop - Site Monitor
					

Bristol Energy Coop - Site Monitor by SpiralEdge



					livegen.bristolenergy.coop


----------



## Smangus (Oct 2, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I’ll be gutted if I turn out to have been playing twice as much for electricity as I should have been for years on end. My fault for not keeping a close eye on it before recent rocketing prices. I never knew what was “normal” before, though.


Probably squatters in the flat above nicking it through a hole in your ceiling to a light fitting....

Not that I'd know how this is done obvs


----------



## Saunders (Oct 3, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Cheers, I have bought one.  Let’s see how it goes.


I also just bought one, to collect tomorrow. I really thought I’d got a handle on what was using all the electricity (the underfloor heating in the conservatory, left on by accident) and have been being quite careful ever since. I have solar PVs so over the summer, was only running the dishwasher or washing machine during the middle of the day and was keeping within 190 units a month. But the last 9 days I’ve used 117 units and I don’t know why. Could be I bought a television and made a few cakes. Dunno.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I fully expect people to get into all sorts of trouble ...





Karl Masks said:


> Perhaps I'm being naive, but I do think the government will have to do something. If only because of the threat to what little remains of the social peace. It's clear the government's cap is simply not going to be enough. There is no way they can allow half the country to sit in the cold and the dark, if only becaise of the effect on productivity, not health or wellbeing. The question is how long will they try and tough it out.
> 
> But then, I could be wrong



ALL sorts of trouble. Every kids family I work with will be catastrophically affected by this. Some will go out on the rob. Some will deal more drugs. Some will take more drugs - heroin is very good for beating the cold they tell me.

Unfortunately the burglary will come before the rioting.


----------



## dessiato (Oct 3, 2022)

We've just taken over my f-i-l's account. There's £1800 of credit in it.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 3, 2022)

Saunders said:


> I also just bought one, to collect tomorrow. I really thought I’d got a handle on what was using all the electricity (the underfloor heating in the conservatory, left on by accident) and have been being quite careful ever since. I have solar PVs so over the summer, was only running the dishwasher or washing machine during the middle of the day and was keeping within 190 units a month. But the last 9 days I’ve used 117 units and I don’t know why. Could be I bought a television and made a few cakes. Dunno.


Hope they're ok - I'm impressed with mine, am now using it to try to work out the efficiency of the charger/battery/inverter supply to my computer, and how best to use it in the evening. There's a button for 'cost' but I've not bothered with that. Seems to show time, Watts, Cumulative, current, power factor, and something else I've not worked out yet.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 3, 2022)

Saunders said:


> But the last 9 days I’ve used 117 units and I don’t know why.



That's 10kwh per day.   

I was using just under 5kwh per day in August, before I started this round of energy saving measures, this month it'll be just over 3kwh per day.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I was using just under 5kwh per day in August, before I started this round of energy saving measures, this month it'll be just over 3kwh per day.


you have gas for hot water ?


----------



## Saunders (Oct 3, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Hope they're ok - I'm impressed with mine, am now using it to try to work out the efficiency of the charger/battery/inverter supply to my computer, and how best to use it in the evening. There's a button for 'cost' but I've not bothered with that. Seems to show time, Watts, Cumulative, current, power factor, and something else I've not worked out yet.


I’m really dreadfully bad with anything that shows me too much information so I’m hoping mine has a clear display that shows me what each device uses over a day or week. Plus even though I know none of this is difficult, it just never properly registers with me so I need something very simple.


----------



## Saunders (Oct 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's 10kwh per day.
> 
> I was using just under 5kwh per day in August, before I started this round of energy saving measures, this month it'll be just over 3kwh per day.


Yeah. Where’s it come from?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> you have gas for hot water ?



Yes, that was costing around £12pm, but with the new boiler dropped to just £2.45 in Sept.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 3, 2022)

Saunders said:


> Yeah. Where’s it come from?



My savings?

Mainly replacing a 20 year old fridge-freezer that was eating around 2kwh a day, the new one only uses 0.6kwh a day and will pay for itself in about 18 months, then using a air-fryer instead of the oven.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 3, 2022)

Saunders said:


> I’m really dreadfully bad with anything that shows me too much information so I’m hoping mine has a clear display that shows me what each device uses over a day or week. Plus even though I know none of this is difficult, it just never properly registers with me so I need something very simple.


If it's the same as mine, when you plug in and switch on it shows how long it's been on at the top of the screen (hours and minutes), and the power the equipment is taking (Watts). Press Function and it shows the cumulative power (kWh) since you switched on. I really don't use any of the others - I just keep pressing Function until it gets back to the power the equipment is taking.

It doesn't really register with me either, so I write them down  .


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 3, 2022)

Already dialled down my computer use a little


----------



## 20Bees (Oct 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> My savings?
> 
> Mainly replacing a 20 year old fridge-freezer that was eating around 2kwh a day, the new one only uses 0.6kwh a day and will pay for itself in about 18 months, then using a air-fryer instead of the oven.


What’s the energy rating of the new fridge-freezer? Mine is a Zanussi that will be 31 years old in December and it works perfectly, but I’m starting to look at replacements for when it eventually fails. 

When all three adult offspring were living here, plus two of their partners, I used a separate larder fridge plus an ancient chest freezer as well as the tall fridge-freezer. As they gradually moved out I stopped using the chest freezer and the electricity use plummeted, but although it’s now just me here I’d still been using the fridge AND fridge-freezer. At the end of August I switched off the larder fridge and during September I used 159 units instead of the usual 200-ish. Electric cooking, oil boiler. I wonder how much lower it could go with a more energy-efficient model!


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 3, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> ALL sorts of trouble. Every kids family I work with will be catastrophically affected by this. Some will go out on the rob. Some will deal more drugs. Some will take more drugs - heroin is very good for beating the cold they tell me.
> 
> Unfortunately the burglary will come before the rioting.


Energy is just so fundamental that we don't even really consider it. Not being able to watch TV or netflix is one thing; a simple trope for Tories to use to beat the poor. But not being able to boil a kettle or power a fridge. Most people's landlines, if they have them, are mains powered. Laptop chargers for people filling in their UC diaries. Charging mobile phones. Making emergency calls. Reading a book by nightlight. Having a fucking warm bath. While I agree that criminality will kick in first, people sat in the dark with nothing else to do in a major town or city will fucking burn the place down. The Tories are playing with fire if they think they can let people go this way


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 3, 2022)

By the way, does anyone know if it's cost effective to run a laptop on battery and then charge it. In other words, do I save anything by running off battery for 3 hours and then plugging it in to charge it? Or do you lose the savings from running off battery by any extra juice required to charge?


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 3, 2022)

You will wear the batteries out quicker.


----------



## Saunders (Oct 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> My savings?
> 
> Mainly replacing a 20 year old fridge-freezer that was eating around 2kwh a day, the new one only uses 0.6kwh a day and will pay for itself in about 18 months, then using a air-fryer instead of the oven.


Oh gosh sorry I didn’t mean ‘where have your savings come from’ but ‘where has all my electric gone these last few days?’ 
Interesting you mention fridge and oven though as they’re things I’m thinking of monitoring


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> You will wear the batteries out quicker.


I'm more concerned about reducing energy bills right now


----------



## two sheds (Oct 3, 2022)

I'd have thought charging/discharging the battery would take more than keeping it topped up so you're just (I assume) supplying the computer. Which did something on this recently though. I shall look.

Eta:



> Charging a laptop differently, what's the price difference?​We took four different laptops of different ages and measured the kilowatt hours of energy used during a 24-hour period for three popular charging scenarios:
> 
> *Plugged in *We left each laptop plugged in for a full 24-hour period
> 
> ...


Shows how much I know  

Eta - but if it does wear the battery out faster as GG says I'd imagine that would be fair bit higher cost.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 3, 2022)

From the same Which e-mail: 



> Given that changing the way you charge your laptop isn't going to make a significant saving as energy bills rise, we asked Emily Seymour, Which? sustainability editor, what changes _would_ make a difference around the home.
> 
> Emily said: 'For most households the biggest energy guzzlers through the winter are central heating and appliances such as tumble dryers.'
> 
> ...


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2022)

Does anyone know — with these power use plug in thingies, if I have multiple ring circuits, do I need to check each ring separately?


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 3, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Does anyone know — with these power use plug in thingies, if I have multiple ring circuits, do I need to check each ring separately?


You're testing the individual appliances


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> You're testing the individual appliances


Ah, I misunderstood how they worked. So what do I do — plug the appliance in through the tester?  Tricky for things in difficult to reach places, of course, but so be it


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 3, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Ah, I misunderstood how they worked. So what do I do — plug the appliance in through the tester?  Tricky for things in difficult to reach places, of course, but so be it


It's even hard to tell exactly what the power limit is - certainly no more than 13 amps and not bloody great inductive loads ..
I was careful to run my kettle and toaster separately when evaluating breakfast energy use.
I'm probably not going to try to run my immersion heater through mine !
My house runs on extension cables


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2022)

The big thing I want to test is the storage heater oven.


----------



## 2hats (Oct 3, 2022)

Mine has max current (15A) and max power (3750VA ie Watts) indicated on the reverse. I'd only use them to measure one [wall socket] appliance at a time. If you want to measure anything more juice hungry then use an inductive meter ('energy monitor') at the consumer unit (one which clamps around the incoming live).


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 3, 2022)

There are apparently some fit and forget ones available in some places - remote control sockets that also log usage data which is accessible via WIFI ...


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 3, 2022)

Mine has served its purpose for random testing of things - I have a ballpark figure for cooking etc .. and for the winter will be used just to monitor the fan heater in my bedroom.

I dug out my collection of temp control modules and mains relays so I will go proactive now - certainly when it comes to better regulating things like my my immersion heater temperature - not that i use it much...


----------



## teuchter (Oct 3, 2022)

2hats said:


> Mine has max current (15A) and max power (3750VA ie Watts) indicated on the reverse. I'd only use them to measure one [wall socket] appliance at a time. If you want to measure anything more juice hungry then use an inductive meter ('energy monitor') at the consumer unit (one which fits around the incoming live).


That's what i have... and if I want to see what an individual appliance is using, I just switch it on/off and see how much the total energy use goes up and down by. Can test light fittings the same way (which you can't do with a socket plug in thing).


----------



## existentialist (Oct 3, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Energy is just so fundamental that we don't even really consider it. Not being able to watch TV or netflix is one thing; a simple trope for Tories to use to beat the poor. But not being able to boil a kettle or power a fridge. Most people's landlines, if they have them, are mains powered. Laptop chargers for people filling in their UC diaries. Charging mobile phones. Making emergency calls. Reading a book by nightlight. Having a fucking warm bath. While I agree that criminality will kick in first, people sat in the dark with nothing else to do in a major town or city will fucking burn the place down. The Tories are playing with fire if they think they can let people go this way


I've always wondered - and been grateful never to have to find out - how people on keycards and the like manage with refrigerators. I mean, sure, you can switch them off for a few hours and they'll still be fine, but it's not really the thing, is it?

Some basic level of electricity supply ought to be as much of a right as sanitation and fresh water.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 4, 2022)

2hats said:


> Mine has max current (15A) and max power (3750VA ie Watts) indicated on the reverse. I'd only use them to measure one [wall socket] appliance at a time. If you want to measure anything more juice hungry then use an inductive meter ('energy monitor') at the consumer unit (one which clamps around the incoming live).


Do you mean this kind of thing?

AmazonCommercial 400A AC Clamp Meter, 2000 Count https://amzn.eu/6W2mPqQ


----------



## moochedit (Oct 4, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I'd have thought charging/discharging the battery would take more than keeping it topped up so you're just (I assume) supplying the computer. Which did something on this recently though. I shall look.
> 
> Eta:
> 
> ...


Have they done a similar test for phones?

Best way to save money with phone/laptop charging is plug it in at work!


----------



## emanymton (Oct 4, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I'd have thought charging/discharging the battery would take more than keeping it topped up so you're just (I assume) supplying the computer. Which did something on this recently though. I shall look.
> 
> Eta:
> 
> ...


Apart from the fact that the saving is pretty minimal the plugged in scenario is not comparable to the other two as it was over 24 hours while the others were only over 8 hours.


----------



## moochedit (Oct 4, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I've just checked, and for some reason OVO customers paying by DD, are getting it as a refund to bank accounts rather than a credit to the bills. 🤷‍♂️


Just had my ovo statement by email for july to september. Can't see anything in it about the £66 or how it will be paid. Or anything about my DD reducing (which an earlier email said it would reduce). It shows me about £300 in credit. Not sure if there is more if i log in. Will do that in a bit.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 4, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Just had my ovo statement by email for july to september. Can't see anything in it about the £66 or how it will be paid. Or anything about my DD reducing (which an earlier email said it would reduce). It shows me about £300 in credit. Not sure if there is more if i log in. Will do that in a bit.



How they will do it depends on how you pay your bills, all explained on this page -









						Energy Bills Support Scheme I OVO Energy
					

Find out what we currently know about the government's Energy Bills Support Scheme and how to spot scams.




					www.ovoenergy.com


----------



## moochedit (Oct 4, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> How they will do it depends on how you pay your bills, all explained on this page -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheers. Will have a read.


----------



## moochedit (Oct 4, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> How they will do it depends on how you pay your bills, all explained on this page -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok. Thanks for that. As i pay by DD it sounds like i will get paid the refund to my bank account. Will keep an eye on my bank app statement.  Why they don't just reduce the DD i don't know but i guess it has same effect in the end.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 4, 2022)

It's quite depressing looking at the smart meter since the latest rises and seeing our daily spend go up so much.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 4, 2022)

I knew gas had gone up by more than electric, so I've just done a comparison between what I was paying per kwh in Jan. to now - electric up by around 75%, but the killer - gas is up by around 165%   

Even more motivation to save on heating.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 4, 2022)

This is so bad now we have had to get LED grow lights for the tent....


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 4, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Just had my ovo statement by email for july to september. Can't see anything in it about the £66 or how it will be paid. Or anything about my DD reducing (which an earlier email said it would reduce). It shows me about £300 in credit. Not sure if there is more if i log in. Will do that in a bit.


isn't the first payment this month?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 4, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Do you mean this kind of thing?
> 
> AmazonCommercial 400A AC Clamp Meter, 2000 Count https://amzn.eu/6W2mPqQ


You can also get the type where there's a display unit separate from the bit that clips around the wire at the fusebox - then you can have it sat somewhere visible that you walk past frequently, and be continually obsessive about how much per you're using.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 4, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> This is so bad now we have had to get LED grow lights for the tent....


Yes, the good quality high power ones are finally a cost-effective improvement.
I'm only raising seedlings so I will stick with my somewhat crappy LED strips next year, but will put the whole lot on a timer.
It was a shock to learn my 12 volt 10 amp power supplies burn 11 watts just by themselves.


----------



## moochedit (Oct 4, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> isn't the first payment this month?


Yeah that would explain it. 

Also having read cupid_stunt 's link again it seems that they refund the £66 to your bank account once the DD has "cleared" so i think they are doing it that way to discourage people from cancelling their DD's.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 4, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Yeah that would explain it.
> 
> Also having read cupid_stunt 's link again it seems that they refund the £66 to your bank account once the DD has "cleared" so i think they are doing it that way to discourage people from cancelling their DD's.


British Gas have explicitly stated they will do that in an email though they haven't come clean about any motivation.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 4, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Yes, the good quality high power ones are finally a cost-effective improvement.
> I'm only raising seedlings so I will stick with my somewhat crappy LED strips next year, but will put the whole lot on a timer.
> It was a shock to learn my 12 volt 10 amp power supplies burn 11 watts just by themselves.



managed to bag a decent make 630w one for £400 so going to test her out first.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 4, 2022)

moochedit said:


> it seems that they refund the £66 to your bank account once the DD has "cleared" so i think they are doing it that way to discourage people from cancelling their DD's.



That's not the reason, because if you don't pay by DD it's credited to your account.



MickiQ said:


> British Gas have explicitly stated they will do that in an email though they haven't come clean about any motivation.



The reason I've seen mentioned is it saves keep changing the DD amount and buggering up how the average across 12 months is calculated.


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 4, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Yeah that would explain it.
> 
> Also having read cupid_stunt 's link again it seems that they refund the £66 to your bank account once the DD has "cleared" so i think they are doing it that way to discourage people from cancelling their DD's.


How very Tory.

Well the last payment is January iirc so all bets will be off then as it will be the middle of winter and the most miserable time of year.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 4, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> How very Tory.
> 
> Well the last payment is January iirc so all bets will be off then as it will be the middle of winter and the most miserable time of year.



The payments are over 6 months, Oct-Mar.


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 4, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> The payments are over 6 months, Oct-Mar.


Happy to be corrected


----------



## 2hats (Oct 4, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Do you mean this kind of thing?
> 
> AmazonCommercial 400A AC Clamp Meter, 2000 Count https://amzn.eu/6W2mPqQ


That wouldn't be much use - no current reading. Was thinking more of the type of energy monitors that a lot of the power companies used to give away 10-15 years ago, using a current transformer clamp much like this sort of thing or this.

Alternatively, you can roll your own for a few quid (though you will need to calibrate it, but it may well then be more accurate than a COTS model for your own use).
​


----------



## Leafster (Oct 4, 2022)

2hats said:


> That wouldn't be much use - no current reading. Was thinking more of the type of *energy monitors that a lot of the power companies used to give away* 10-15 years ago, using a current transformer clamp much like this sort of thing or this.
> 
> Alternatively, you can roll your own for a few quid (though you will need to calibrate it, but it may then well be more accurate than a COTS model for your own use).
> ​



I was up in the loft at the weekend trying to clear some of the junk out and spotted one of energy monitors. I think I got it from NPower. I think I might get it down from the loft and see if it still works.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 4, 2022)

Ta.  Do you think it would be easy to install for somebody with relatively minimal skills?  I don’t have to start wiring things up, do I?  Does it tend to be fairly obvious?


----------



## 2hats (Oct 4, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Ta.  Do you think it would be easy to install for somebody with relatively minimal skills?  I don’t have to start wiring things up, do I?  Does it tend to be fairly obvious?


Those CT clamp meter monitors? You just have to (gently, firmly) put the clamp on the correct chunky mains cable coming into your consumer unit (the live one typically, or as directed by the device instructions, of course). The only thing you might have to wire up is the clamp lead to the wireless box (that broadcasts the data to the meter display). Usually those are a simple plug to plug in. Otherwise, just AA[A] batteries to pop into each box. Even that homebrew suggestion is about as simple an electronics project as you could get.


----------



## 20Bees (Oct 4, 2022)

I got this energy monitor free from E.on around 10 years ago. I changed tariff a few times with them, then switched to Bulb, and am now half way through a 2 year fix with EDF. It was very easy to set up initially and each time I change tariff I enter the new rates. It isn’t switched on all the time, only when I’m inclined to check something specific. It’s only shortcoming is that the clock is slow, around 5 minutes behind within an hour of resetting it, but it’s unnecessary to the function anyway.



I’ve had it on this morning:
1. The ancient fridge-freezer running

2. The fridge-freezer switched off

3. The broadband router switched off


Always on at the mains are two Echo smart speakers, three Tapo smart plugs (Sky box, tv and a table lamp), and the main switch for the boiler (programmer, pump, 3-way valve, and wall thermostat). Everything else, apart from the fridge freezer, is unplugged or switched off at the wall.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 4, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Ta.  Do you think it would be easy to install for somebody with relatively minimal skills?  I don’t have to start wiring things up, do I?  Does it tend to be fairly obvious?


I have a Raspberry Pi-based thing that does it. No wiring involved - you put the clamp around one of the incoming power tails, plug it in, (presumably) get it to connect to your wifi, and you're off and running.

You definitely don't want to be doing wired-in power monitoring stuff on the business side of a consumer unit.


----------



## 2hats (Oct 4, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I have a Raspberry Pi-based thing that does it. No wiring involved - you put the clamp around one of the incoming power tails, plug it in, (presumably) get it to connect to your wifi, and you're off and running.


Once you trust the meter, or if you want to monitor that in parallel, and assuming you have a mains meter with the flashing 'flow rate' LED (X pulses per kWh), you could monitor that using a light dependent resistor.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 4, 2022)

2hats said:


> Once you trust the meter, or if you want to monitor that in parallel, and assuming you have a mains meter with the flashing 'flow rate' LED (X pulses per kWh), you could monitor that using a light dependent resistor.


That's probably assuming a level of electronic construction ability I'm not sure even I have, and I'll try most things once


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 5, 2022)

So SSE are paying me the £66 tomorrow and not just knocking off my bill?

Seems strange


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 5, 2022)

Counting those LED pulses appeals to me - I'm fairly sure it occured to me before - perhaps I'll cobble something together using my PC rather than a dedicated data-logger - since the PC is on all day when I'm not in bed and mostly I'm using my local plug-in thingy and reading the meter downstairs once a day is not a problem ... I doubt that level of monitoring is of much benefit in a single-person household...

Meanwhile I was sitting here idly poking my non-contact mains tester around and realised I had a distinctly warm 24 volt supply permanently plugged-in for under-bench lighting I hardly ever use ...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 5, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> So SSE are paying me the £66 tomorrow and not just knocking off my bill?
> 
> Seems strange



That's OVO policy, they own SSE, it's been covered up thread, see top of this page.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 5, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's OVO policy, they own SSE, it's been covered up thread, see top of this page.



Ohhhh... im going to spend mine on drugs.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 5, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> Ohhhh... im going to spend mine on drugs.



That's the sort of reason why I've increased my DD from £1 to £67, I want it paying the bills and not getting spent elsewhere.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 5, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's the sort of reason why I've increased my DD from £1 to £67, I want it paying the bills and not getting spent elsewhere.



Buy drugs, - cut drugs, - sell drugs = profit 

spend profit on more drugs


----------



## Leafster (Oct 5, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Meanwhile I was sitting here idly poking my non-contact mains tester around and realised I had a distinctly warm 24 volt supply permanently plugged-in for under-bench lighting I hardly ever use ...


I've got the smartpower meter down from the loft and set up. 

It's suggesting a daytime background power consumption of around 200w. That's with the usual suspects running - PC, server, router and Sonos along with the usual things on standby. 

I think I'll look more closely at the weekend to see what's actually drawing the most just in case I've left something running I don't actually need.


----------



## Thora (Oct 5, 2022)

Can anyone give me some advice?
We moved in to a new house in June and so are on a 'deemed tariff' with EDF paying a monthly bill - currently about £35 gas and £75 electric.
EDF want me to move to a standard variable tariff and pay by direct debit of £174 - they say bills would become £188 a month if I just paid monthly I think.  Obviously we haven't had the heating on yet so I'm not sure if going to £174 is the best thing to do?
Any suggestions?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 5, 2022)

Thora said:


> Can anyone give me some advice?
> We moved in to a new house in June and so are on a 'deemed tariff' with EDF paying a monthly bill - currently about £35 gas and £75 electric.
> EDF want me to move to a standard variable tariff and pay by direct debit of £174 - they say bills would become £188 a month if I just paid monthly I think.  Obviously we haven't had the heating on yet so I'm not sure if going to £174 is the best thing to do?
> Any suggestions?



Paying by DD is cheaper, and £14pm/£168pa is a decent saving TBF, I would grab that, you can always adjust the DD down or get a refund if you build up too much credit.


----------



## Thora (Oct 5, 2022)

We used to pay £99 a month.  Painful 😭


----------



## cesare (Oct 5, 2022)

My electric usage power meter arrived today so I'm testing now. Early shock this morning was that an insect zapper (problem with mossies) that we've had on all day every day since June uses the same kwh as a kettle   It's now unplugged.

On the +ve side the airfryer is using less kwh than I expected, I'll edit to add what it is.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 5, 2022)

Thora said:


> We used to pay £99 a month.  Painful 😭



Well I live on my own, but in a big 2-bed bungalow, and I was paying £60pm this time 2 years ago, that would be £157pm now, if it wasn't for the £400 grant over the winter, and the introduction of some major energy saving measures.


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 5, 2022)

Jake Berry just says get a better job or use less energy. Stop whining plebs.

He should know, he's the Tory party chair. 

And cunt


----------



## iona (Oct 5, 2022)

CH1 said:


> BTW is there an official "chimney blocking bag" available. I tend to put books & old copies of the FT up but that seems to attract mice. And very messy to take back down in summer. Must be a lot of hot air goes up uncapped chimneys.





alex_ said:


> You can get a kind of balloon thing
> 
> Eg Keep warm air in and cold air out with Chimney Balloon! - Chimney Balloon
> 
> This isnt a reference just the first useful hit on Google


There's also wool ones called chimney sheep which are good


----------



## Storm Fox (Oct 5, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Jake Berry just says get a better job or use less energy. Stop whining plebs.
> 
> He should know, he's the Tory party chair.
> 
> And cunt


What pisses me off about this comment Jake makes, in addition to being completely shitty in themselves. 
If everyone got the ( non-existent for the number of people he is talking about )high-paying jobs. Who does he think is going to do these currently low-paid but vital jobs? I'm sure he'd soon start moaning to Waitrose management if there were gaps on the shelves or had to clean his own office.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 5, 2022)

So after a nightmare years ago I've never paid by direct debit. But I see even Octopus offer a discount for them, which they didn't when we signed up.

If you have a smart meter is done so it takes the exact amount you've used rather then what they think they should?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 5, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Jake Berry just says get a better job or use less energy. Stop whining plebs.
> 
> He should know, he's the Tory party chair.
> 
> And cunt



Each day I think I can't hate them more and then read something like this.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 5, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> So after a nightmare years ago I've never paid by direct debit. But I see even Octopus offer a discount for them, which they didn't when we signed up.
> 
> If you have a smart meter is done so it takes the exact amount you've used rather then what they think they should?


I don't think so - I think they still average out your consumption over the year, so that you overpay during the summer, and underpay in winter.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 5, 2022)

From Moneysavingexpert e-mail





__





						Loading…
					





					www.moneysavingexpert.com
				




That's the one I was given I think, good basic air fryer for £35

Eta: good for one person, perhaps a bit small for two.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> From Moneysavingexpert e-mail
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Darn. I've been trying to avoid making food even more appealing


----------



## Leafster (Oct 5, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I've got the smartpower meter down from the loft and set up.
> 
> It's suggesting a daytime background power consumption of around *200w*. That's with the usual suspects running - PC, server, router and Sonos along with the usual things on standby.
> 
> I think I'll look more closely at the weekend to see what's actually drawing the most just in case I've left something running I don't actually need.


I seem to have dropped the background power consumption down to around 180w already simply by switching the TV, sound bar and Blu Ray player off at the socket along with an old uplighter with a built in transformer.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 5, 2022)

I’ve had my £66 credited to my energy account.  Woo hoo! Might boil a kettle.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 5, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> So after a nightmare years ago I've never paid by direct debit. But I see even Octopus offer a discount for them, which they didn't when we signed up.
> 
> If you have a smart meter is done so it takes the exact amount you've used rather then what they think they should?




No it will be average over the year, so for example £80 a month for gas as you might use £5 in july and £150 in Dec


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> From Moneysavingexpert e-mail
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the one I got, it's fine for two TBH, probably even for three, depending on what you're cooking.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 5, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> So after a nightmare years ago I've never paid by direct debit. But I see even Octopus offer a discount for them, which they didn't when we signed up.
> 
> If you have a smart meter is done so it takes the exact amount you've used rather then what they think they should?



Depends if you are paying by standard monthly DD, which is averaged out based on the use reported by the smart meter, or a variable DD paying the actual billed amount each month.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 5, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's the one I got, it's fine for two TBH, probably even for three, depending on what you're cooking.


Even better - I just try to cram too much into it for fish & chips


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 5, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Depends if you are paying by standard monthly DD, which is averaged out based on the use reported by the smart meter, or a variable DD paying the actual billed amount each month.



Thanks. I emailed them as it wasn't clear on the website.Yes you can do variable. But you don't get a discount. 

I'm impressed with the response time though. It could be days for good energy.


----------



## moochedit (Oct 5, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> So SSE are paying me the £66 tomorrow and not just knocking off my bill?
> 
> Seems strange


Same here (ovo but moved from sse).

It seems they wait until DD confirmed as paid and then refund you the £66 to your bank. I suspect it's to discourage people from cancelling their DD.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 5, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Same here (ovo but moved from sse).
> 
> It seems they wait until DD confirmed as paid and then refund you the £66 to your bank. I suspect it's to discourage people from cancelling their DD.



As I posted yesterday -



cupid_stunt said:


> That's not the reason, because if you don't pay by DD it's credited to your account.
> 
> The reason I've seen mentioned is it saves keep changing the DD amount and buggering up how the average across 12 months is calculated.



Bearing in mind the new price guarantee is for 2 years, but nothing has been said about if the £400 grant will be paid next winter, so that makes sense.


----------



## moochedit (Oct 5, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> As I posted yesterday -
> 
> 
> 
> Bearing in mind the new price guarantee is for 2 years, but nothing has been said about if the £400 grant will be paid next winter, so that makes sense.


Ok sorry i missed that post.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 5, 2022)

my freind is on a variable tariff with a cap with a DD set to £161 per month with edf (dual fuel) but over the summer they only took out the amount she actually used.
Not sure why but thinking this might be due to the fact she gets cold winter payments.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 6, 2022)

As predicted, Bulb credit up to over £200 and DDs set at £74 - so I will be knocking that down to the minimum of 40-something.
Next bill will be covered by the £66 and I doubt I will add as much as £40 a month for heating thereafter.
Edit:- minimum is now £61.41 
Apparently I can contact them and over-ride this.
I will wait until the 1st December bill by which time I may have started using heating so will have set a precedent.


----------



## passenger (Oct 6, 2022)

I made a cottage pie Monday, I had gone into my 
£5 emergency electric at 2 pm that day, by 10 pm  
the meter had £1.88  I'm sure the oven is the main 
culprit, I also have to have the fan on 24/7 I can't sleep
without it on so it's not looking good for me.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 6, 2022)

passenger said:


> I made a cottage pie Monday, I had gone into my
> £5 emergency electric at 2 pm that day, by 10 pm
> the meter had £1.88  I'm sure the oven is the main
> culprit, I also have to have the fan on 24/7 I can't sleep
> without it on so it's not looking good for me.



Yeah we're using £3 to £4 quid a day. It's quite a jump.


----------



## sojourner (Oct 6, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve had my £66 credited to my energy account.  Woo hoo! Might boil a kettle.


Me too. But it's also been credited to my bill online. Slightly confused.


----------



## moochedit (Oct 6, 2022)

After checking online yesterday ovo said i could reduce my DD from £273 to £140 AND i get the £66 refund as well


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 6, 2022)

sojourner said:


> Me too. But it's also been credited to my bill online. Slightly confused.



What a cock-up.  Which company?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 6, 2022)

moochedit said:


> After checking online yesterday ovo said i could reduce my DD from £273 to £140 AND i get the £66 refund as well



I assume you have a decent credit?


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 6, 2022)

That cottage pie sounds expensive ... I use approx 0.6 kwh per day cooking for one from scratch - so 18p - which includes baking a small loaf of bread each week.

My biggest outgoings are fridge and PC - both at 2kwh - or 68p each per day. The PC acts as heating in winter and I will sacrifice the fridge at some point.
If I bathed in hot water once a week as I used to when I worked, that would add 1 kwh or 34p per day (I'm pencilling in once a month or 9p per day)

So my total daily usage is currently £1.95 including SC and VAT

My target is to at least halve my average over 12 months to 5.5kwh - with my current average of 4.3kwh per day that leaves me 438kwh to use for heating over 4 winter months.- giving me 3.65 kwh per day or £1.93..


----------



## moochedit (Oct 6, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I assume you have a decent credit?


I was £300 in credit. It said if i reduced to £140 i should be about £10 in credit in 12 months.

The £273 was calculated before the cap freeze.

It did take £273 this month as too late to change but its £140 from next month.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 6, 2022)

sojourner said:


> Me too. But it's also been credited to my bill online. Slightly confused.


Sorry, don’t understand. If it’s been credited on your online bill that means it’s been taken away from the amount due doesn’t it?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 6, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Sorry, don’t understand. If it’s been credited on your online bill that means it’s been taken away from the amount due doesn’t it?



I read it was being credited to the bank account, but also credited to the bill.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 6, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I read it was being credited to the bank account, but also credited to the bill.


Oh, right. I see. Actually, no I don’t. What?

Credited to energy account and credited to online bill.  (Functionally the same thing).

What am I not getting?


----------



## Leafster (Oct 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> That cottage pie sounds expensive ... I use approx 0.6 kwh per day cooking for one from scratch - so 18p - which includes baking a small loaf of bread each week.
> 
> My biggest outgoings are fridge and PC - both at 2kwh - or 68p each per day. The PC acts as heating in winter and I will sacrifice the fridge at some point.
> If I bathed in hot water once a week as I used to when I worked, that would add 1 kwh or 34p per day (I'm pencilling in once a month or 9p per day)
> ...


I've not been particularly frugal with my leccy historically (but this may change!). Bulb estimates my daily average will be 7.8kwh but last month I averaged 5.5kwh without really trying. 

What I really need to worry about is my gas consumption


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 6, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I read it was being credited to the bank account, but also credited to the bill.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 6, 2022)

I'm horrified at how much electricity I was using before and I really don't understand how with all my lighting being about 9 watts per room and in my main room it's more like 2 watts over my keyboard.

My habits have been relatively stable for years - for me it was being *forced *to look at how much I was spending in a year and then seeing projected increases of *thousands *of pounds per year laid out in front of me that did it ...

And it's not like there weren't significant tariff increases before ...

This is what Bulb have charged me over time ... so large percentage increases aren't new, but they are of course compounded ..
Early 2020 14.62p per kwh
Late 2020 16.27 - 11 percent increase
late 2021 20.5 - 26 percent increase
from April  2022 - 27p  31 percent increase
from October 2022 34p - fixed for 2 years  26 percent increase

Previous threatened caps - 53p and then 80p approx ...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 6, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> View attachment 345999



Yes, I had re-read your quoted post, so I am also a confused now - hence the   in my last reply.


----------



## muscovyduck (Oct 6, 2022)

Periodic reminder if you're battling something out with British Gas now I've caught up with the last few pages of the thread: best way to get it sorted is find their address and write to them recorded delivery (and tell them to respond by writing, email or text only). I've done this a few times now with them and it works wonders. Usually the same with other companies too, including non-energy companies (although there are exceptions, including HMRC)


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 6, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I've not been particularly frugal with my leccy historically (but this may change!). Bulb estimates my daily average will be 7.8kwh but last month I averaged 5.5kwh without really trying.
> 
> What I really need to worry about is my gas consumption



I averaged 4.84kwh per day in August, first 5 days of this month that's down to 2.92, helped by the air-flyer, but mainly down to the new fridge/freezer, both of which combined looks like paying for themselves in under 15 months. 

My obsession with electric savings has come to an end, and will move onto gas once I start using the heating. 

I was £570 in credit with my last bill on 21/9, and I've put up my DD from £1 to £67, to take account of OVO paying the grant payments into my bank account, it'll be interesting to see how much I am still in credit come the March bill. I am currently on target to have a Oct bill slightly under £60.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 6, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I averaged 4.84kwh per day in August, first 5 days of this month that's down to 2.92, helped by the air-flyer, but mainly down to the new fridge/freezer, both of which combined looks like paying for themselves in under 15 months.
> 
> My obsession with electric savings has come to an end, and will move onto gas once I start using the heating.
> 
> I was £570 in credit with my last bill on 21/9, and I've put up my DD from £1 to £67, to take account of OVO paying the grant payments into my bank account, it'll be interesting to see how much I am still in credit come the March bill. I am currently on target to have a Oct bill slightly under £60.


How are you doing with the air-fryer? Mrs Q has purchased one and seems quite taken by it but I havent' quite managed to master it yet things tend to come out a bit burnt on the outside but still no more than lukewarm on the inside.


----------



## Leafster (Oct 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I'm horrified at how much electricity I was using before and I really don't understand how with all my lighting being about 9 watts per room and in my main room it's more like 2 watts over my keyboard.
> 
> My habits have been relatively stable for years - for me it was being *forced *to look at how much I was spending in a year and then seeing projected increases of *thousands *of pounds per year laid out in front of me that did it ...
> 
> ...


When I moved to this place I made a conscious effort with the lights. I didn't really have a choice - the previous owners took most of the light fittings with them! All except the old uplighter I mentioned earlier are now LED lights (both inside and out) and I rarely use more than a couple of 5 watt (?) table lamps for lighting of an evening. My desk lamp is 5 watts, I think. 

Having a smart home has its positives and negatives with electricity consumption. I have a server which is running 24/7 but things like the hall and kitchen lights are motion activated so they only come on when needed and go off when they're not. The extractor fans in the kitchen and bathroom are programmed to activate when the humidity crosses a set threshold so aren't used unnecessarily. The outside lights at the front only come on when I need them rather than being on a timer or motion-activated by the foxes and deer which wander in. To be honest, I suspect any savings from the lighting and ventilation controls are eaten up by the server running. 

The smart home does save on my heating costs though. Being able to fine tune the heating requirements for different rooms throughout the day reduces the possibility of heating rooms unnecessarily. It also makes it extremely easy to adjust things if my plans change and I don't need to heat the house. 

My fondness for gadgets is probably my downfall. Not just the smart home but all those small things just plugged in working away in the background - Alexa, Sonos, the weather station, CCTV, cordless phone base stations, mobile phone and iPad chargers and probably countless other things I've forgotten - all nibbling away at my electricity consumption.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 6, 2022)

I've had my immersion heater on for 2 hours a night (rather than the 6 or so before), and so far I've not run out of hot water. I make that a saving of around 4x3.5kWh per day, or something of the order of £4-5 *a day *


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 6, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> How are you doing with the air-fryer? Mrs Q has purchased one and seems quite taken by it but I havent' quite managed to master it yet things tend to come out a bit burnt on the outside but still no more than lukewarm on the inside.



I think it's ace, I've certainly not experienced that problem, perhaps you need to turn down the cooking temperature a bit & cook a little longer, or have lessons from Mrs Q.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 6, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I've had my immersion heater on for 2 hours a night (rather than the 6 or so before), and so far I've not run out of hot water. I make that a saving of around 4x3.5kWh per day, or something of the order of £4-5 *a day *



Not sure about that, if the immersion heater is rated at 3.5kw, it's not going to be using anything like that once the tank's temperature is reached.


----------



## cesare (Oct 6, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I think it's ace, I've certainly not experienced that problem, perhaps you need to turn down the cooking temperature a bit & cook a little longer, or have lessons from Mrs Q.


Yep we've not had that problem either. Stick it as a query on the airfryer thread, Micki, should be on new posts somewhere cos Boatie had a query about jacket spuds earlier.


----------



## Leafster (Oct 6, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> How are you doing with the air-fryer? Mrs Q has purchased one and seems quite taken by it but I havent' quite managed to master it yet things tend to come out a bit burnt on the outside but still no more than lukewarm on the inside.





cupid_stunt said:


> I think it's ace, I've certainly not experienced that problem, perhaps you need to turn down the cooking temperature a bit & cook a little longer, or have lessons from Mrs Q.


I'm still getting used to my air-fryer. There's definitely savings from using it for things like chicken thighs or chops which I would have cooked in the conventional oven. It cooks chips OK but although it's a 2 in 1 (Tefal) it won't do these simultaneously with anything in the tray. It cooks them first and then keeps them warm whilst you cook something in the tray. The quality of the chips deteriorates while I'm waiting for the food in the tray to cook. 

I did try a chicken casserole type thing but I suspect I needed to add more liquid as it was somewhat 'dry'.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 6, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Not sure about that, if the immersion heater is rated at 3.5kw, it's not going to be using anything like that once the tank's temperature is reached.


It does seem a bit high. But, monitoring it on my graphs, it tended to operate on a duty cycle of a minimum of 75% while it's on, then stops for a bit, before topping up the heat a bit later. I could probably do some sums to work out the rate of heat leakage from the HWC, or just buy an additional insulating jacket and bung it on. So maybe I'm just saving half that theoretical amount 🤷‍♂️

Either way, I did already know that the immersion heater represents a very significant chunk of my electricity usage, so whatever the numbers, it's going in the right direction 

And, because it's all rigged into my automated home stuff, if I forget to turn it off (which happens more often than it should) when I go away, I can do it remotely, and also turn it on the day before I get back home.


----------



## sojourner (Oct 6, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> What a cock-up.  Which company?





danny la rouge said:


> Sorry, don’t understand. If it’s been credited on your online bill that means it’s been taken away from the amount due doesn’t it?





cupid_stunt said:


> I read it was being credited to the bank account, but also credited to the bill.


Sorry for the confusion!!

What I MEANT was that Ovo have paid £66 into my BANK account, as well as crediting my current bill with it.


----------



## sojourner (Oct 6, 2022)

moochedit said:


> After checking online yesterday ovo said i could reduce my DD from £273 to £140 AND i get the £66 refund as well


My Ovo account tells me I could change my DD to £5!


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 6, 2022)

sojourner said:


> My Ovo account tells me I could change my DD to £5!


Do it! 

(But put aside a reasonable sum each month, so you can pay them when/if they realise their error. But in the meantime it’s better in your account than theirs!)


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 6, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I've had my immersion heater on for 2 hours a night (rather than the 6 or so before), and so far I've not run out of hot water. I make that a saving of around 4x3.5kWh per day, or something of the order of £4-5 *a day *


I only switch on the immersion heater for a bath and my back of an envelope calculation says 7.5KWH per bath or 0.25kwh per day averaged over a month.  When I worked, I had a hot bath every Sunday which would have meant 1kwh per day.
I'm hoping to make my water heating more efficient by having the water only heat to 40 degrees so I don't end up wasting hot water... but it's a low priority for me as I'm fine with flannels and cold water most of the time.

I realise that with a job and social life like yours, bathing and laundry are going to be important.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I only switch on the immersion heater for a bath and my back of an envelope calculation says 7.5KWH per bath or 0.25kwh per day averaged over a month.  When I worked, I had a hot bath every Sunday which would have meant 1kwh per day.
> I'm hoping to make my water heating more efficient by having the water only heat to 40 degrees so I don't end up wasting hot water... but it's a low priority for me as I'm fine with flannels and cold water most of the time.
> 
> I realise that with a job and social life like yours, bathing and laundry are going to be important.


Laundry's no problem - the washing machine is cold feed only (and mostly runs at 30C). I use a shower to wash, and only very, very rarely have a bath (the HWC doesn't really supply enough water for a decently full, decently warm bath). The only thing I really use hot water for is washing at the sink, and doing the washing up.

I'd be very wary of only heating the water to 40C, because there is a lot of evidence that, at temperatures much below 50, there is quite a risk of the cylinder becoming a breeding ground for legionella bacteria.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 6, 2022)

If I use the 1kw fan heater under my desk this winter it will be on a thermostat ...
I have yet to decide where to set the temperature ...
The 12 volt supply for the thermostat uses almost a watt by itself !
I may run some lighting off it as well ...
EDIT - currently reading 19 degrees at head height, 17 under my desk ...


----------



## sojourner (Oct 6, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Do it!
> 
> (But put aside a reasonable sum each month, so you can pay them when/if they realise their error. But in the meantime it’s better in your account than theirs!)


Tbh I would probably spend it  I'll just leave it there.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> If I use the 1kw fan heater under my desk this winter it will be on a thermostat ...
> I have yet to decide where to set the temperature ...
> The 12 volt supply for the thermostat uses almost a watt by itself !
> I may run some lighting off it as well ...
> ...


What am I looking at? 😮

Usually Urbanites don’t get to see their RIP threads, so in a way you’re lucky. Please know you’ll be missed as a valued and interesting - if sometimes exasperating - member of our community, and we were all shocked and saddened - but not surprised - by your untimely electrocution.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 6, 2022)

If that doesn't get him the improvised electric blanket will


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 6, 2022)

I was intrigued to learn that electrically heated clothing can cause problems in addition to third degree burns !


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 6, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> What am I looking at? 😮
> 
> Usually Urbanites don’t get to see their RIP threads, so in a way you’re lucky. Please know you’ll be missed as a valued and interesting - if sometimes exasperating - member of our community, and we were all shocked and saddened - but not surprised - by your untimely electrocution.


That's the best cheap temperature control module the Chinese have to offer and a knock-off "Omron"-style relay - thankfully my 1kw fan heater shouldn't tax it too much ... if I get around to doing the immersion heater I will drive an industrial contactor off the relay...


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 6, 2022)

I just had some bod come to the door selling windows under the guise of a "recycling scheme" for anything over ten years old !


----------



## Leafster (Oct 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I just had some bod come to the door selling windows under the guise of a "recycling scheme" for anything over ten years old !


I keep getting phone calls from 'various' companies saying they offer a free loft insulation survey. If I say I'm not interested they start going on about the problem with 'old' loft insulation being dangerous. I admit to switching off at that point but I'm sure they've sometimes mentioned 'fire hazard' or 'causing damp problems'. They insist they aren't trying to sell me something and I insist that I'm NOT INTERESTED.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> if I get around to doing the immersion heater I will drive an industrial contactor off the relay...


There is usually a thermostat in the tank to control the heater.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 6, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> There is usually a thermostat in the tank to control the heater.


Yes but it's not easily accessible and sod's law if I tried to adjust it, it would pack up and I'm not in the mood for draining the tank and fitting a new heater ... and I like the idea of having a nice digital temperature display and I have all this stuff to hand ... it's getting ripped out over the next year or two ...


----------



## Leafster (Oct 6, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> What am I looking at? 😮
> 
> Usually Urbanites don’t get to see their RIP threads, so in a way you’re lucky. Please know you’ll be missed as a valued and interesting - if sometimes exasperating - member of our community, and we were all shocked and saddened - but not surprised - by your untimely electrocution.



A non-GG solution to the problem      ...



Built in thermostat, quiet, comes with a remote, can be used with a smart phone and doubles up as an air purifier and fan in the summer.


----------



## spellbinder (Oct 6, 2022)

Just got this email.....
Your Energy Bills Support Scheme monthly discount has been paid​

Hello ,


We're pleased to confirm that we've applied your discount of £66.00 as a credit to your energy account. You'll be able to see this on the next bill you receive from us.


The Energy Bills Support Scheme is a discount provided by HM Government to help you cope with rising energy costs. You can find out more about the scheme, as well as additional support, on the Government website here. We'll continue to provide this monthly discount until it ends in March 2023.



Thanks for being a ScottishPower customer.

That's a nice surprise!


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## WouldBe (Oct 6, 2022)

spellbinder said:


> Just got this email.....
> Your Energy Bills Support Scheme monthly discount has been paid​
> 
> Hello ,
> ...


Why? Are you an EON customer?


----------



## zora (Oct 7, 2022)

Hmmm...just set up a new account with Octopus. (They were already energy provider here, but my flatmate moved out, and she closed the old account which had been in her name.)

Got a letter in the post yesterday, detailing the cost of our predicted energy use for the year under prices until 30 Sep 2022, under the new prices from 01 Oct without the price freeze, and the new price from 01 Oct_ with_ the price freeze (not including the £400 government rebate).

So far, so sensible and transparent. However, when I went to set up the direct debit just now, they have set the monthly direct debit amount to cover the cost _without _the price freeze.

I am not too worried about it, because I am pretty sure I can amend this - and my flatmates and I had budgeted for the potential worst case scenario, because the government freeze hadn't been announced when we looked for a new person. I also hope that we will be using a fair amount less energy, as all of us will be mainly working outside the home this winter now.

BUT it still seems strange that they set the direct debit reflecting this higher price?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 7, 2022)

They did that to me too. They told me it would happen, to be fair, and said something about it then being covered by a rebate in the bill. I just went into the app and set my DD to be lower.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 7, 2022)

Sounds like a cockup.
Surely that's a lot of excess cash - 53p instead of 34p per unit ?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 7, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Sounds like a cockup.
> Surely that's a lot of excess cash - 53p instead of 34p per unit ?


I think it is probably just to aid their internal accounting. They charge you a certain amount in theory, then there is an explicit reduction that can be presumably cross-charged. No need to play along with that game in your DD setting though


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 7, 2022)

I fired up my bed warming device last night.
A 3 foot/166 watt tubular greenhouse heater on a triac dimmer.
On the lowest setting it felt a bit warm for 20 watts.
The power factor was only about 0.3 and the VA was actually 55 watts - so hopefully I will only be charged for 20


----------



## kabbes (Oct 7, 2022)

You live a very different life than I do


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 7, 2022)

20Bees said:


> What’s the energy rating of the new fridge-freezer? Mine is a Zanussi that will be 31 years old in December and it works perfectly, but I’m starting to look at replacements for when it eventually fails.



Sorry for the delay in replying, only just remembered to check, the energy rating is 'F' which is equal to 'A+' on the scale used pre-March 2021, and the annual energy rating is 229kwh, 627watts per day. 



> The old energy ratings range was from A+++ to D. Due to the advances in technology, around 80% of appliances on the market are clustered at the top of the scale, making it hard to work out which ones truly have the best rating. Simplifying the scale, new energy labels will range from A to G.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 7, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Laundry's no problem - the washing machine is cold feed only (and mostly runs at 30C). I use a shower to wash, and only very, very rarely have a bath (the HWC doesn't really supply enough water for a decently full, decently warm bath). The only thing I really use hot water for is washing at the sink, and doing the washing up.
> 
> I'd be very wary of only heating the water to 40C, because there is a lot of evidence that, at temperatures much below 50, there is quite a risk of the cylinder becoming a breeding ground for legionella bacteria.


I stand corrected. This chap argues that the domestic Legionella risk is a lot lower than is generally accepted. With some caveats.


----------



## High Voltage (Oct 7, 2022)

So, ah! is anyone else coming out "ahead" in the old 'lecky bill front??


----------



## High Voltage (Oct 7, 2022)

Now all I've got to do is find a way of getting that +ve balance out of my Bulb account and into my account and I'll be able to have my bill paid AND a drink on the government


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 7, 2022)

It's cold today. WFH for the first time in weeks. Resisting putting the heating on though.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 7, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> So, ah! is anyone else coming out "ahead" in the old 'lecky bill front??



But, that comparison is to a bill at the old rates, how are doing during the current billing period?

From 22/9 to 6/10 my combined electric/gas total bill so far is £30.53 for 16 days, equal to £57.24 for the billing period, whilst 9 of those days are at the old rate, from 1/10 the new fridge-freezer came into use, and my average cost per day is down on the new rates, so I think the actual bill will be even less than that, which makes cupid a very happy bunny. 

That's assuming I don't need the heating on before 21st Oct.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 7, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sorry for the delay in replying, only just remembered to check, the energy rating is 'F' which is equal to 'A+' on the scale used pre-March 2021, and the annual energy rating is 229kwh, 627watts per day.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 346106


If I'm reading my power monitor correctly, at 11 hours I'm looking at a consumption of .86kW. Which works out at 1.8kW/day.

About 2.5x what the fridge/freezer I'm looking at online will achieve


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 7, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> So, ah! is anyone else coming out "ahead" in the old 'lecky bill front??


I had a shouting match with someone elsewhere because of my insistence that my bill was "negative".
I very much doubt I will use any heating in October so I will come *close *to zero for a second month even at the new rate. 
I'm hoping that by the time I really need heating I will be able to do away with my fridge which burns 2kwh per day.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 7, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I'm hoping that by the time I really need heating I will be able to do away with my fridge which burns 2kwh per day.



Have you not thought of getting a better fridge?

This one is probably bigger than you need, but it's annual energy consumption is just 113kwh, 0,31kwh per day, and if I've got my maths right, paying for itself in just over 7 months of use.






						EFUL48W_WH | Electra Larder Fridge | White | ao.com
					

This EFUL48W_WH white larder fridge from Electra has an 89 litre capacity which can hold up to 4 bags of food shopping, adjustable shelves to fit larger items inside, a salad crisper drawer to keep your fruit and vegetable organised and a reversible door. Free delivery available at ao.com




					ao.com


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## gentlegreen (Oct 7, 2022)

I think you're probably right, I'll get 2 years' use out of it and could sell it cheap after that - plus I could probably get a few quid for the camping fridge


----------



## zora (Oct 7, 2022)

One thing just occurred to me...if people are paying by direct debit, as so many people do, and the payments are supposed to be evenly spread over the year, but the government rebate is only for the winter months - won't people suddenly have to pay _more_ in spring, when they least expect it? 

Esp if they reduce the inflated looking DD amounts now? 
Like in my example, if I say to my flatmates now - let's reduce that direct debit to reflect the price guaranteed by the government now, and let's all pay x amount less into the house account, because we'll also be getting sixty pounds back - we'll have sixty pounds more to pay in spring, despite being actual energy consumption lower then?


----------



## High Voltage (Oct 7, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> But, that comparison is to a bill at the old rates, how are doing during the current billing period?


We don't heat using electricity. Well we do, underfloor heating in the bathroom, you remember, the one that doesn't use any leccy. We've had it on for the last week, turns out it uses "quite a bit" maybe 5KWh a day, but that's not with the timer or the thermostat set. That's the next item to address, our main source of heat is bulk lpg central heating and I think we can get the that to last this winter / next summer / maybe next winter on the one tank full, and that's already bought and paid for. We also use wood and smokeless coal again this winter's is already bought and paid for. Don't get me wrong we're not going to be sat around in our underwear with the windows open sipping iced drinks (well, we will be sipping iced drinks, but the rest, not so)


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 8, 2022)

My bed heating works quite well - ostensibly not much different to a hot water bottle or sharing the bed with another mammal.
50 watts averaged over 3 feet - up to 166 to prewarm ...
It doesn't do the feet though ...


----------



## existentialist (Oct 8, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> My bed heating works quite well - ostensibly not much different to a hot water bottle or sharing the bed with another mammal.
> 50 watts averaged over 3 feet - up to 166 to prewarm ...
> It doesn't do the feet though ...
> 
> ...


Get another mammal. Piece of piss


----------



## two sheds (Oct 8, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Get another mammal. Piece of piss


yes they sometimes do


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 8, 2022)

zora said:


> One thing just occurred to me...if people are paying by direct debit, as so many people do, and the payments are supposed to be evenly spread over the year, but the government rebate is only for the winter months - won't people suddenly have to pay _more_ in spring, when they least expect it?
> 
> Esp if they reduce the inflated looking DD amounts now?
> Like in my example, if I say to my flatmates now - let's reduce that direct debit to reflect the price guaranteed by the government now, and let's all pay x amount less into the house account, because we'll also be getting sixty pounds back - we'll have sixty pounds more to pay in spring, despite being actual energy consumption lower then?


Direct debits spread the load throughout the year, you run up a big debt over winter, pay it down again over spring and summer and build up a credit over autumn ready for next winter. The government rebate is going to be more help for people who pay the bills as they fall due. For those of us on DD it's probably better to think of it as just extra income which you might spend on energy.  I'm not planning to reduce my DD's during the period I get the rebate, I will stash the rebate away and class it as unexpected (but welcome) 'rainy day' funds.


----------



## BristolEcho (Oct 8, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Direct debits spread the load throughout the year, you run up a big debt over winter, pay it down again over spring and summer and build up a credit over autumn ready for next winter. The government rebate is going to be more help for people who pay the bills as they fall due. For those of us on DD it's probably better to think of it as just extra income which you might spend on energy.  I'm not planning to reduce my DD's during the period I get the rebate, I will stash the rebate away and class it as unexpected (but welcome) 'rainy day' funds.


Ours is going into the shopping budget which feels out of control.


----------



## 20Bees (Oct 8, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sorry for the delay in replying, only just remembered to check, the energy rating is 'F' which is equal to 'A+' on the scale used pre-March 2021, and the annual energy rating is 229kwh, 627watts per day.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 346106


Thank you, that is helpful. The manual for my 31 year old fridge-freezer says “Average daily units 2.7Kwh”.  Daily, vs your 627Kwh  is quite incredible. Maybe I won’t wait until this one packs up, and replace it sooner rather than later. I’ve just learned that large electrical appliances can be bought via Boots, earning the loyalty card points, although they are supplied, delivered and installed by AO.com.  

I see the £66 rebate has been credited to my EDF electricity account, although my monthly direct debit is fixed until September 2023 at only £52!  My age will qualify me for the Winter Fuel Allowance too.

It’s already over £200 in credit and they will probably do a refund into my bank account when the next half yearly statement is done at the end of December.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 8, 2022)

20Bees said:


> Thank you, that is helpful. The manual for my 31 year old fridge-freezer says “Average daily units 2.7Kwh”.  Daily, vs your 627Kwh  is quite incredible. Maybe I won’t wait until this one packs up, and replace it sooner rather than later. I’ve just learned that large electrical appliances can be bought via Boots, earning the loyalty card points, although they are supplied, delivered and installed by AO.com.



TBF the fridge-freezer I got is about 2/3rd the size of the old one, basically about half way between my former full-sized upright and the standard under the counter models. but it's enough for me, and the savings are very pleasing, together with the air-flyer & a few other small changes, I've gone from about 5kwh of electric a day in August, to an average of 2.7kwh a day so far this month.

I don't usually replace things until they break, but on this occasion I am bloody glad a did.


----------



## pesh (Oct 8, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> My bed heating works quite well - ostensibly not much different to a hot water bottle or sharing the bed with another mammal.
> 50 watts averaged over 3 feet - up to 166 to prewarm ...
> It doesn't do the feet though ...
> 
> ...


have you tested your smoke detector recently?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 8, 2022)

Has anyone bought a power usage meter to measure devices? Are they much a muchness or is it something it pays to spend a few pounds more?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Has anyone bought a power usage meter to measure devices? Are they much a muchness or is it something it pays to spend a few pounds more?


I got the one two sheds  recommended. Of course, I have no idea if it is accurate or not


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 8, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Has anyone bought a power usage meter to measure devices? Are they much a muchness or is it something it pays to spend a few pounds more?


Upthread there were some ebay links - as low as £12.99
I think it's basically the same chipset used in smart meters .. doubtless all made in China to near-identical designs
I bought one some years back that went on the blink - but I think they're all similar.
I recently bought one from Amazon - paid a few quid extra for backlighting..


----------



## two sheds (Oct 8, 2022)

I wasn't sure how accurate but it seems good, and the reading pretty well exactly matches the output power reading of the inverter I've got.


----------



## 20Bees (Oct 8, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> TBF the fridge-freezer I got is about 2/3rd the size of the old one, basically about half way between my former full-sized upright and the standard under the counter models. but it's enough for me, and the savings are very pleasing, together with the air-flyer & a few other small changes, I've gone from about 5kwh of electric a day in August, to an average of 2.7kwh a day so far this month.
> 
> I don't usually replace things until they break, but on this occasion I am bloody glad a did.


I still need at least four freezer drawers, five would be even better, and no less fridge space than I have now. And frost-free, as mine has never had any ice build up, unlike both my daughters’ freezers which constantly jam up with ice. Two of the fridge door compartments cracked and are duct-taped, and I’ve replaced the bulb twice, but really it’s a great testimony to the longevity of Zanussi appliances (or at least, their ‘80s and ‘90s build - the new replacement I bought for a 34 year old electric oven is rubbish in comparison).  I might look at pre-owned.

I guess the size of the freezer makes a big difference to the power consumption. I’ll research it thoroughly but I really appreciate the heads-up that it’s a significant consideration!


----------



## elbows (Oct 8, 2022)

On a fixed tariff here till next August so still paying 17p per until then. But am interested in saving energy anyway so got some measuring plugs and tried them so far with a couple of kitchen appliances:

Large upright freezer, purchased this year. 0.39 kWh/day. But I do need to repeat this test as it was the first time Id used the measuring plug and for an unknown reason it misreported the number of hours it had been plugged in.

Large fridge freezer, quite a few years old now but not decades old. 1.38kWh/day.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 8, 2022)

20Bees said:


> I still need at least four freezer drawers, five would be even better, and no less fridge space than I have now. And frost-free, as mine has never had any ice build up, unlike both my daughters’ freezers which constantly jam up with ice. Two of the fridge door compartments cracked and are duct-taped, and I’ve replaced the bulb twice, but really it’s a great testimony to the longevity of Zanussi appliances (or at least, their ‘80s and ‘90s build - the new replacement I bought for a 34 year old electric oven is rubbish in comparison).  I might look at pre-owned.
> 
> I guess the size of the freezer makes a big difference to the power consumption. I’ll research it thoroughly but I really appreciate the heads-up that it’s a significant consideration!


If you have the space for it get a chest freezer + a fridge.


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## 20Bees (Oct 9, 2022)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> If you have the space for it get a chest freezer + a fridge.


That could work with a bit of creative rearrangement  I have an empty fridge that I was using until August, but it’s 21 years old and I can’t find anything about its energy rating. Two new appliances sounds terribly extravagant.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 9, 2022)

20Bees said:


> That could work with a bit of creative rearrangement  I have an empty fridge that I was using until August, but it’s 21 years old and I can’t find anything about its energy rating. Two new appliances sounds terribly extravagant.


I can't do the math for you but hot air in cold air out is why chest freezers are great, and any modern fridge would beat a 21 year old one in efficiency I think, then it's working out how long the savings will even out to time wise.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 9, 2022)

20Bees said:


> I still need at least four freezer drawers, five would be even better, and no less fridge space than I have now. And frost-free, as mine has never had any ice build up, unlike both my daughters’ freezers which constantly jam up with ice. Two of the fridge door compartments cracked and are duct-taped, and I’ve replaced the bulb twice, but really it’s a great testimony to the longevity of Zanussi appliances (or at least, their ‘80s and ‘90s build - the new replacement I bought for a 34 year old electric oven is rubbish in comparison).  I might look at pre-owned.
> 
> I guess the size of the freezer makes a big difference to the power consumption. I’ll research it thoroughly but I really appreciate the heads-up that it’s a significant consideration!



I've not seen five freezer draw ones, but these examples are 4 draws, and annual energy consumption for this one is 271kwh/0.74kwh per day - F rated, so only a little more than mine, and would save you around 2kwh per day, or this one where annual energy consumption is just 226 Kwh/0.62kwh per day - E rated, but costs almost £150 more, it's just a question of shopping around. 

* The annual energy consumption can be found when you click 'full spec', then expand 'how does it perform'.


----------



## High Voltage (Oct 9, 2022)

Underfloor heating in the bathroom successfully re-programmed to be on less and at a lower temperature - watch this space


----------



## Leafster (Oct 9, 2022)

I've just been looking at my latest Bulb statement (month to 8th October). 

I have used 16% less electricity than the same period last year but I've used 55% more gas!   

I know I'm a soft southerner living in the sticks and the heating has been 'on' since the end of September but I'm still a little surprised. 

I know it's only a short period but I'm trying to get my head around why I've used more. Looking at the stats from my weather station it would seem that the end of September was considerably colder here than last year. (That's why the heating went on) 

In the last few days of September the average temperature was more than 3°C lower and at some points nearly 7°C lower so I'm guessing it was the tipping point between no heating required and it being on. We've already had at least one night of light frost when normally we don't get them until November. 

I just hope the rest of the winter is closer to our 'normal' weather.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 9, 2022)

Presumably lack of moisture in the air to act as a blanket ?
I don't know when I will feel the need for heating - I suppose I was more aware of the seasons when I was cycling to work and back...
From now on I fully intend to use no more than 5.5kwh per day averaged over the whole year.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 9, 2022)

It turns out my greenhouse tube heater doesn't like running at the full 166 watts wrapped in a towel and it has a self-resetting cutout.
So I will mostly be using it on the lowest setting...


----------



## Leafster (Oct 9, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Presumably lack of moisture in the air to act as a blanket ?
> I don't know when I will feel the need for heating - I suppose I was more aware of the seasons when I was cycling to work and back...
> From now on I fully intend to use no more than 5.5kwh per day averaged over the whole year.


The relative humidity average was down about 3% over the corresponding period but I'm not sure how that might impact on things. 

All I can hope is I get a few more sunny days like yesterday and today. I'm in the office at home at the moment and it's 22.2°C and the heating hasn't been on in here all weekend.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 9, 2022)

This important message seems a bit odd. Surely this is a gas hob whistling kettle complete with flame capturing flange. Is it an intelligent electric hob which can ignore air-space between the kettle "bottom" and the heating element?


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 9, 2022)

Par for the course in terms of the lack of understanding demonstrated by government - and in this case artistic licence from the graphics company ...








						Yandex Images
					

Image search for clothes and similar products, text recognition and translation, unique image check, image copy search, identification for items in images. Image and photo search. #yandexvision




					yandex.com


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 9, 2022)

I remembered the other day that my ostensibly well-educated boss (as long ago as 2013 according to my post on Urban) passed-on some bollocks that was circulating at the time about a DIY "IKEA loss-leader tee lites under a flowerpot" 200 watt heater and after a bit of cringe-indulgence, Youtube has been deluging me with those videos ...

There was one guy with a teeny super-insulated shelter which he acknowledged was warm enough with just body heat and he not surprisingly measured significant warming and said that the 10ppm of carbon monoxide was about as much as he would accept - but he still left it up to others to decide (rationalising it by recalling some dreadful accommodation of his youth) ...

People are going to DIE doing that type of shit this winter.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 9, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> It turns out my greenhouse tube heater doesn't like running at the full 166 watts wrapped in a towel and it has a self-resetting cutout.
> So I will mostly be using it on the lowest setting...


Your not supposed to cover electric heaters or they can overheat. Setting fire to the place would certainly warm it up.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 9, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Your not supposed to cover electric heaters or they can overheat. Setting fire to the place would certainly warm it up.


It's a 3 foot long metal tube, only 166 watts and as I say clearly has built-in protection.
I suppose I ought to measure the temperature...


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 9, 2022)

checked my friend's energy bill for this month today, her (maximum amount) DD has been reduced by £50, and with the £66 gov top-up her account is now £23.xx in credit.
No heating has been used so far though and she has a tendency to like it (very) warm in the winter.


----------



## 20Bees (Oct 9, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I've not seen five freezer draw ones, but these examples are 4 draws, and annual energy consumption for this one is 271kwh/0.74kwh per day - F rated, so only a little more than mine, and would save you around 2kwh per day, or this one where annual energy consumption is just 226 Kwh/0.62kwh per day - E rated, but costs almost £150 more, it's just a question of shopping around.
> 
> * The annual energy consumption can be found when you click 'full spec', then expand 'how does it perform'.


Thank you so much for this, I’m now drawing up a comparison table!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 11, 2022)

OVO is fucking around again, on the website it says I would be receiving the government grant as a refund to my bank account a week after my DD is paid on the 12th, so I increased my DD from £1 to £67.

This morning I see they have credited the £66 to my bill, I've tried to change my DD back to £1, but it will not let me, so I've ended-up cancelling it again, once that shows up on the website, I'll set a new one up for £1 again, what a bloody game.  

sojourner, I know you had OVO credit it to your bill AND refund to you bank account, have they been in contact about that cock-up?

I am half expecting that to happen to me as well, if it does, it would suggest they are doing that with millions of customers, which will be a proper fucking mess for them to sort out, and will piss off loads of customers.


----------



## moochedit (Oct 11, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OVO is fucking around again, on the website it says I would be receiving the government grant as a refund to my bank account a week after my DD is paid on the 12th, so I increased my DD from £1 to £67.
> 
> This morning I see they have credited the £66 to my bill, I've tried to change my DD back to £1, but it will not let me, so I've ended-up cancelling it again, once that shows up on the website, I'll set a new one up for £1 again, what a bloody game.
> 
> ...


I received my £66 into to my bank account a few days after my £270 DD was taken (going down to £140 from next month)

Once you get the DD back again, I'd just leave your DD at £1 and then let them pay you the £66 making you £65 up! (Assumming you have a credit balance and/or you are confident you can catch up later)


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 11, 2022)

moochedit said:


> I received my £66 into to my bank account a few days after my £270 DD was taken (going down to £140 from next month)
> 
> Once you get the DD back again, I'd just leave your DD at £1 and then let them pay you the £66 making you £65 up! (Assumming you have a credit balance and/or you are confident you can catch up later)



I started this billing period £570 in credit, and because of all my electric savings, I am on target to come in at under £56 in total this month, so that credit will go up by over £10 just with the grant payment.


----------



## 20Bees (Oct 12, 2022)

My direct debit to EDF is £52/month, the £66 is irrespective of the direct debit amount. It was credited to my electricity account three days after the direct debit was taken and then refunded to my bank account, though it took a few days to land in the bank.


----------



## cesare (Oct 12, 2022)

It's so confusing!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 12, 2022)

20Bees said:


> My direct debit to EDF is £52/month, the £66 is irrespective of the direct debit amount. It was credited to my electricity account three days after the direct debit was taken and then refunded to my bank account, though it took a few days to land in the bank.



Did they credit it to the bill, and then take it off again when they refunded you, or have you basically received it twice?


----------



## 20Bees (Oct 12, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Did they credit it to the bill, and then take it off again when they refunded you, or have you basically received it twice?


Here’s a photo of the payments page on my EDF account. The credit shown as “+£66” and the refund which sent £66 to my bank account were processed the same day, 6 October, but it didn’t show in the bank account until 11 October. I haven’t received it twice, it just took the scenic route!

I think I read that British Gas are crediting £66 to the energy account and just refunding the amount of the direct debit into the customer’s bank, if that’s lower, but this table from MSE doesn’t say that.



			https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/08/how-energy-suppliers-will-pay-the-p400-cost-of-living-support-pa/


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 12, 2022)

20Bees said:


> Here’s a photo of the payments page on my EDF account. The credit shown as “+£66” and the refund which sent £66 to my bank account were processed the same day, 6 October, but it didn’t show in the bank account until 11 October. I haven’t received it twice, it just took the scenic route!



This is so weird, I guess OVO are doing the same, credit it to the bill, then deduct it when they refund it to your bank account, it's just bonkers.

It wouldn't be so bad if they actually e-mailed customers explaining that's how they are dealing with it.


----------



## moochedit (Oct 12, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> This is so weird, I guess OVO are doing the same, credit it to the bill, then deduct it when they refund it to your bank account, it's just bonkers.
> 
> It wouldn't be so bad if they actually e-mailed customers explaining that's how they are dealing with it.


I just checked the "current billing period" on ovo online. At first i thought they had credited me £66 twice as they paid it to my bank account but the statement only showed one £66 figure.  But when i looked at the breakdown of the charges figure the other £66 was in there so i think it is "correct" but it is very confusing how they have shown it.


----------



## RubyToogood (Oct 12, 2022)

My direct debit has gone down to less than it was two years ago, due to (1) the grant (2) having built up a decent amount of credit over the summer and (3) using less energy than they expected this month. It's just under £50 a month now for electricity and gas combined.

And they've just rebated £15 to my bank account.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 14, 2022)

Just checked the state of my account, my DD is down to £0 and I am £103 in credit after the first £66 payment. All electric, hot water and heating are billed separately.


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## MickiQ (Oct 14, 2022)

Just checked my balances since it's time for the biannual charges to be debited to my account. Electricity they haven't done yet but my gas charges for the last 6 months have been £255 leaving me £107 in credit, there was a button to click to claim my refund. Fuck yeah Dude give me my dosh.
My electric account is £664 in credit pre the actual bill being charged to me, The bill back in April was £514 so hopefully could be a second refund sometime next week.


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 16, 2022)

Our fridge died (hadn’t been cooling properly for a while), and as it was 19 years old I didn’t try to investigate whether it could be repaired, as I maybe should have done. But anyway, it was a chance to update to a newer, more energy efficient one and because there was a cashback offer making them affordable, we’ve ended up with an LG ”linear inverter“ model which claims to be low energy and is certainly very quiet by comparison.

I’ve been measuring it with my meter and it runs at different power levels according to how much cooling is needed, but it’s often using only 20W in contrast to the old one which was 100W+ when the compressor was running. The LG does run longer at a lower power, so direct comparison is not easy unless you measure the watt hours in a fixed period. I’m pretty sure it’s saving us a useful amount though.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 16, 2022)

This may help, breakdown of how it's getting paid by some companies.









						How will the £400 energy grant be paid?
					

The £400 energy grant is being paid to households to cut bills this winter. We explain how your energy supplier will pay your.




					www.themoneyedit.com


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 16, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> Our fridge died (hadn’t been cooling properly for a while), and as it was 19 years old I didn’t try to investigate whether it could be repaired, as I maybe should have done. But anyway, it was a chance to update to a newer, more energy efficient one and because there was a cashback offer making them affordable, we’ve ended up with an LG ”linear inverter“ model which claims to be low energy and is certainly very quiet by comparison.
> 
> I’ve been measuring it with my meter and it runs at different power levels according to how much cooling is needed, but it’s often using only 20W in contrast to the old one which was 100W+ when the compressor was running. The LG does run longer at a lower power, so direct comparison is not easy unless you measure the watt hours in a fixed period. I’m pretty sure it’s saving us a useful amount though.



My 20+ year old fridge-freezer was using over 2kwh a day, the new one uses 0.6kwh, replacing that has been the biggest part of reducing my daily electric use from an average of 5kwh to just 2.5kwh.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 16, 2022)

spitfire said:


> This may help, breakdown of how it's getting paid by some companies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That doesn't explain it very well for OVO customers.



> *If you pay your OVO Energy bill by Direct Debit, then the usual discount will be applied directly “shortly after” the initial payment has been made.*
> 
> However, if you pay on demand, the discount will instead be credited into your account in the first week of each month.



I pay by DD, what they are actually doing is crediting your bill, then refunding it to your bank account, then deducting it from you bill.  🤷‍♂️


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 16, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> My 20+ year old fridge-freezer was using over 2kwh a day, the new one uses 0.6kwh, replacing that has been the biggest part of reducing my daily electric use from an average of 5kwh to just 2.5kwh.


That’s amazing!  Ours has also moved from being ramed into a niche with no space around it and little ventilation to being free standing on the other side of the kitchen, so hopefully we will benefit from it running cooler too.

 It can’t have been good for the efficiency to have had the heat from the back of the fridge just sitting there and soaking back into the fridge thru the insulation.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 16, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That doesn't explain it very well for OVO customers.
> 
> 
> 
> I pay by DD, what they are actually doing is crediting your bill, then refunding it to your bank account, then deducting it from you bill.  🤷‍♂️



Take it up with Katie:






						Articles by: Katie Binns | The Money Edit
					






					www.themoneyedit.com


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 17, 2022)

The one thing that seriously bugs me is my broadband router, which according to Virgin & my smart meter, uses 30 watts an hour, so around 0.75kwh per day, that's more than my new fridge-freezer, and about 30% of my current electric use now.

I would like to unplug it overnight, but can't because it would miss out on forced upgrades, and that would in time cause all sorts of problems, and I can't even unplug it during the day, because the system can think there's a fault on the line and slow your speed, in an attempt to keep you connected.

That's the advice from Virgin, BT & Sky, and I guess others too, the broadband providers need to come up with an option for people to turn off their routes when not needed, without screwing things up.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2022)

2hats said:


> That wouldn't be much use - no current reading. Was thinking more of the type of energy monitors that a lot of the power companies used to give away 10-15 years ago, using a current transformer clamp much like this sort of thing


So I got that device but I have a question

It has four inputs like so



Does that really mean that I just strip back a wire, insert live and neutral into the lower two inputs and then plug the whole thing into the mains?

The other part has black and red wires —does it matter which plugs into which for the top two inputs?

(The only instructions it comes with are basically just a repeat of this wiring diagram!)


----------



## existentialist (Oct 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> The one thing that seriously bugs me is my broadband router, which according to Virgin & my smart meter, uses 30 watts an hour, so around 0.75kwh per day, that's more than my new fridge-freezer, and about 30% of my current electric use now.
> 
> I would like to unplug it overnight, but can't because it would miss out on forced upgrades, and that would in time cause all sorts of problems, and I can't even unplug it during the day, because the system can think there's a fault on the line and slow your speed, in an attempt to keep you connected.
> 
> That's the advice from Virgin, BT & Sky, and I guess others too, the broadband providers need to come up with an option for people to turn off their routes when not needed, without screwing things up.


It is usually possible to install a third-party router/modem. That power usage seems huge, so I am sure there are some which are more modest, but I suspect it hasn't been a priority for the people who make/sell these things.

This might be an interesting background read: The UK Electricity Costs of Home Broadband ISP Routers Compared


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 17, 2022)

kabbes said:


> So I got that device but I have a question
> 
> It has four inputs like so
> 
> ...


Yes, live and neutral in the lower two and the CT coil into the top ones. The CT coil doesn’t have a polarity, as it’s just a coil of wire (through which your load cable passes). Make sure it’s only the live load cable passed through the CT thingy, as if you have live and neutral passing through it the electromagnetic field is going to cancel out (due to there being two opposite currents flowing).


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> The one thing that seriously bugs me is my broadband router, which according to Virgin & my smart meter, uses 30 watts an hour, so around 0.75kwh per day, that's more than my new fridge-freezer, and about 30% of my current electric use now.
> 
> I would like to unplug it overnight, but can't because it would miss out on forced upgrades, and that would in time cause all sorts of problems, and I can't even unplug it during the day, because the system can think there's a fault on the line and slow your speed, in an attempt to keep you connected.
> 
> That's the advice from Virgin, BT & Sky, and I guess others too, the broadband providers need to come up with an option for people to turn off their routes when not needed, without screwing things up.


30W is an astonishing amount - is that really right? It must be getting very warm if it’s dissipating so much power.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 17, 2022)

existentialist said:


> It is usually possible to install a third-party router/modem. That power usage seems huge, so I am sure there are some which are more modest, but I suspect it hasn't been a priority for the people who make/sell these things.
> 
> This might be an interesting background read: The UK Electricity Costs of Home Broadband ISP Routers Compared





MrCurry said:


> 30W is an astonishing amount - is that really right? It must be getting very warm if it’s dissipating so much power.



A quick google now says 12-15 watts, but I saw the 30 watt figure quoted somewhere before.   

But, when unplugging everything, the smart meter shows zero use, no matter what order I've plugged in & turned on various things, it always goes up by 30 watts when the router is added.

I need to investigate this more.


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> A quick google now says 12-15 watts, but I saw the 30 watt figure quoted somewhere before.
> 
> But, when unplugging everything, the smart meter shows zero use, no matter what order I've plugged in & turned on various things, it always goes up by 30 watts when the router is added.
> 
> I need to investigate this more.


The most accurate indication would be if you had a power meter like this one plugged in for 24 hours. My router‘s power consumption varies according to whether it’s idle or I’m downloading a big file, so the W can go up and down, but the average Wh measured over 24 hours gives the truest indication of the consumption you’re paying for.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 17, 2022)

Is good point I've not even thought about the router will check it.

Eta: Zen router seems about 5 W which is humane.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 17, 2022)

I've just put on the water for a bath, so I will get a figure for that  - my estimate was 7.5kwh...


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## two sheds (Oct 17, 2022)

My (reasonably large) immersion takes about 3kW for an hour to heat up.


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## moochedit (Oct 17, 2022)

Goverment support for bills will be "reveiwed" in april


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 17, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Goverment support for bills will be "reveiwed" in april



Suggestion is only a certain base level of usage for households will be price-fixed, any usage above that level will be at higher rates. Hunt specially mentioned incentivizing energy efficiency in his statement today, which the Truss scheme wouldn't have done.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Goverment support for bills will be "reveiwed" in april


Why should a couple in a 6 bedroom house with swimming pool and stables get £5000 worth of subsidy?  Makes much more sense to give a fixed subsidy based on average use and say after that, it’s up to you


----------



## moochedit (Oct 17, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Suggestion is only a certain base level of usage for households will be price-fixed, any usage above that level will be at higher rates. Hunt specially mentioned incentivizing energy efficiency in his statement today, which the Truss scheme wouldn't have done.



Ok. I'm at work so just saw a bbc news alert. Can't watch tv atm for details.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 17, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Why should a couple in a 6 bedroom house with swimming pool and stables get £5000 worth of subsidy?  Makes much more sense to give a fixed subsidy based on average use and say after that, it’s up to you



It always costs more to police and vet schemes than it does to just give everyone the cash.


----------



## moochedit (Oct 17, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Why should a couple in a 6 bedroom house with swimming pool and stables get £5000 worth of subsidy?  Makes much more sense to give a fixed subsidy based on average use and say after that, it’s up to you


See my reply above.


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## MrCurry (Oct 17, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Suggestion is only a certain base level of usage for households will be price-fixed, any usage above that level will be at higher rates. Hunt specially mentioned incentivizing energy efficiency in his statement today, which the Truss scheme wouldn't have done.


That’s exactly what they should be doing, but only if they give people practical advice and tools to reduce their consumption. Capping bills so those already paying around the threshold amount had zero incentive not to simply leave everything running at max 24/7 was a terrible message environmentally and would tend to push the wholesale prices up if overall energy use rose as a result.

I still don’t see much if any pragmatic, useable consumer advice on how to get your consumption under control. They would definitely get a good return on investment by getting some people working on coming up with that.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> It always costs more to police and vet schemes than it does to just give everyone the cash.


Not if you’re just handing everyone £66 per month, say. That’s the easiest of all.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 17, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Goverment support for bills will be "reveiwed" in april



There's also big falls in the wholesale gas prices to be considered, I always thought it odd to make it a 2 year deal, rather than regular reviews.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 17, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> It always costs more to police and vet schemes than it does to just give everyone the cash.



It wouldn't be means-testing, no policing and vetting needed, just a different rate on your bill for the first X number of units.

It has cost the government a hugely to offer an unlimited commitment, as the risk involved should gas prices spike has been partly responsible for the recent increase in government borrowing costs.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 17, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> It wouldn't be means-testing, no policing and vetting needed, just a different rate on your bill for the first X number of units.
> 
> It has cost the government a hugely to offer an unlimited commitment, as the risk involved should gas prices spike has been partly responsible for the recent increase in government borrowing costs.




The most positive impact they could make and fairest is to cut the standing charge - you use energy you pay for it. The problem is those who can afford it then go off grid and bills still get offloaded to the rest of us. 


Should absolutely be better pricing per unit and amounts though, that should be something built into the system.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 17, 2022)

two sheds said:


> My (reasonably large) immersion takes about 3kW for an hour to heat up.


So it took nearly 2 hours to get the water hot enough - initially 50 degrees ...


----------



## two sheds (Oct 17, 2022)

3 kW element? Huge water tank?


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## gentlegreen (Oct 17, 2022)

two sheds said:


> 3 kW element? Huge water tank?


Maybe I'm a bit extravagant with water depth ..
Yes 3kw - it used approx 6kwh ...


----------



## two sheds (Oct 17, 2022)

ah ok I thought mine 3 kW for just under an hour - fair point I don't generally fill very high. It may not be heating the whole tank, which I hadn't thought of.


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## existentialist (Oct 17, 2022)

two sheds said:


> ah ok I thought mine 3 kW for just under an hour - fair point I don't generally fill very high. It may not be heating the whole tank, which I hadn't thought of.


The hot water rises to the top, from where it is drawn off. So you can get a quantity of hot water at the full (ish) temperature, but how much you get depends on how long the heater was on.


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## two sheds (Oct 17, 2022)

Yes, it still surprises me that water is that good a heat insulator.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 17, 2022)

I have to confess my tank is uninsulated - but I rarely heat water these days - I went 8 weeks without a hot bath earlier in the year ...
Perhaps I'll treat myself to a new duvet and wrap an old one around it ...


----------



## existentialist (Oct 17, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I have to confess my tank is uninsulated - but I rarely heat water these days - I went 8 weeks without a hot bath earlier in the year ...
> Perhaps I'll treat myself to a new duvet and wrap an old one around it ...


An insulating jacket costs about £20. I'd go so far as to say that wilfully operating an immersion heater without one is an act of deliberate ecological vandalism...quite apart from the cost to you of running an uninsulated tank.


----------



## 20Bees (Oct 17, 2022)

I wrapped a couple of foam camping mats around the cylinder years ago, probably after the last time my son did Cub camp about 25 years ago, and draped all the old duvets and sleeping bags over it. Added split foam insulation tubes to all the pipes in the airing cupboard too.  I’ve never been into the loft and can only see the cold tank from the hatch, but whenever a plumber has been up there I’ve asked if anything needs more lagging and they’ve always said it looks ok.

The oil boiler is set to heat water for 20 minutes each morning and it’s plenty for a shower and washing up, it’s still hot now. I hardly ever use the bath because it’s enormous but the boiler needs another 20 minutes if I do.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 18, 2022)

existentialist said:


> An insulating jacket costs about £20. I'd go so far as to say that wilfully operating an immersion heater without one is an act of deliberate ecological vandalism...quite apart from the cost to you of running an uninsulated tank.


I run my immersion once a month. Used to be once a week.
How much of the 6kwh is lost to the air ?


----------



## prunus (Oct 18, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I run my immersion once a month. Used to be once a week.
> How much of the 6kwh is lost to the air ?



At a rough guess, lots. Probably more than half of it.  An uninsulated hot water tank is basically a radiator, and very good at transferring heat to the air. 

Tell me the size of your tank and I can do some sums to smooth off the edges of the guess if you like.


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## existentialist (Oct 18, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I run my immersion once a month. Used to be once a week.
> How much of the 6kwh is lost to the air ?


A fair bit. And the cylinder will cool significantly quicker without insulation, although it doesn't sound as if that is presently a problem for you, if you're only heating water for immediate use. I admit that I was assuming that you were heating a day's worth of hot water for use throughout the day, rather than just when you need it.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 18, 2022)

I confess as a very intermittent hot water user (once a week when working - once a month now) and with electricity at 20p or less, I wasn't nearly as concerned as I should be .. at current prices if I'm wasting 3kwh per month, that's 3.4 p per day - I will see if I can spare an old duvet ... most of the imperfections in my lifestyle can be put down to the assumption that I would have left this place by now ..
I was always more bothered by the tank water remaining 10 degrees warmer than the cold tap - and that seemed to last quite a while ...


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## existentialist (Oct 18, 2022)

Since my hot water needs are, essentially, a daily wash and the (not always daily ) washing-up, I have wondered in the past whether I might just be better off boiling a kettle (or two) when needed, but I decided that having hot water, ahaha, "on tap" was too much of a convenience to want to bother with kettles. I guess people's priorities are all different!


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## gentlegreen (Oct 18, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Since my hot water needs are, essentially, a daily wash and the (not always daily ) washing-up, I have wondered in the past whether I might just be better off boiling a kettle (or two) when needed, but I decided that having hot water, ahaha, "on tap" was too much of a convenience to want to bother with kettles. I guess people's priorities are all different!


I briefly had a second-hand electric "geyser" in the kitchen when I lived downstairs ...
These days I only wash up if there's fungus in my one saucepan or I drop my one fork on the floor ...
At one stage I used to cook a lot of rice and would use the poured-off water for washing up.


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## existentialist (Oct 18, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I briefly had a second-hand electric "geyser" in the kitchen when I lived downstairs ...
> These days I only wash up if there's fungus in my one saucepan or I drop my one fork on the floor ...
> At one stage I used to cook a lot of rice and would use the poured-off water for washing up.


I admire your tenacity in sticking to your - somewhat unique - lifestyle, but I lack the commitment (or desire) to emulate it: I have four forks, three saucepans (all fungus-free), and I wash up in fresh water. I even wash glassware under running hot water (as it's filling the sink), so as to make it sparkly and nice. I could probably work out what those privileges cost me in power usage, but since I don't intend changing, I shan't bother


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## CH1 (Oct 18, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I run my immersion once a month. Used to be once a week.
> How much of the 6kwh is lost to the air ?


Whatever happened to airing cupboards?


----------



## existentialist (Oct 18, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Whatever happened to airing cupboards?


I think "need for floor space" happened to them. They were quite a nice thing, though.


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## two sheds (Oct 18, 2022)

I always use a kettle to wash up with. I'm hopeful my hot water tank is empty of dead wildlife but I don't want to take the risk


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## existentialist (Oct 18, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I always use a kettle to wash up with. I'm hopeful my hot water tank is empty of dead wildlife but I don't want to take the risk


You have an open hot water tank?


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## two sheds (Oct 18, 2022)

well it has a cover on but you know what pigeons are like


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 18, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Since my hot water needs are, essentially, a daily wash and the (not always daily ) washing-up, I have wondered in the past whether I might just be better off boiling a kettle (or two) when needed, but I decided that having hot water, ahaha, "on tap" was too much of a convenience to want to bother with kettles. I guess people's priorities are all different!



With my old gas boiler I had the habit of heating the hot water tank most days for half an hour, which would last the day, that was costing around 52.5p on those days, that would be about 76p now.

With the new combi-boiler it costs under 14p at the new rates for enough hot water to shower and do the washing-up, it's a bit of an inconvenience not having a tank for hot water on tap during the day and having to wait the extra time for the hot water to travel from the boiler to the bathroom, but I've got used to washing my hands with cold water now, although that may change as we head into winter, and much colder water.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 18, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Whatever happened to airing cupboards?


When I moved in nearly 40 years ago it was enclosed but for some random reason I dismantled the cupboard - I don't know how the jacket came to be lost ... it's enclosed again now and there are some optimistic sheets of polystyrene on the outside wall - I ought to tell myself off because I stripped the downstairs kitchen last year and threw away loads of polystyrene sheet - I had to sneak it into my neighbours' bins ... but with even less need for hot water now (basically when I need to get vaccinated or similar), the motivation is not there.
When I move I will go full-on with solar and super-insulation ... not sure about the bathing - but I suppose I may have solar energy going spare ...


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## existentialist (Oct 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> With my old gas boiler I had the habit of heating the hot water tank most days for half an hour, which would last the day, that was costing around 52.5p on those days, that would be about 76p now.
> 
> With the new combi-boiler it costs under 14p at the new rates for enough hot water to shower and do the washing-up, it's a bit of an inconvenience not having a tank for hot water on tap during the day and having to wait the extra time for the hot water to travel from the boiler to the bathroom, but I've got used to washing my hands with cold water now, although that may change as we head into winter, and much colder water.


Washing hands in cold water I can live with, but I spent far too much time on camping holidays as a kid washing my face in freezing bloody cold water to ever want to reproduce that experience, given the choice!


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## MrCurry (Oct 18, 2022)

I’ve made sure we have enough cutlery and crockery to make it through up to 5 days before putting the dishwasher on. That uses 1.5kWh each time, so being able to push it that extra day further and only running it when there’s no more space to cram a single dish more into it does save a little bit of leccy.  But food isn’t left to rot on the dirty plates - everything is briefly soaked then blasted with cold water before it goes in, so it’s almost clean while sitting there in the d/w awaiting its turn to be properly washed.

The number of days we can last between washes varies depending on what we’ve been cooking, but I only ran it 7 times in Sept, so the average seems to be around 4.25 days.


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## existentialist (Oct 18, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> When I moved in nearly 40 years ago it was enclosed but for some random reason I dismantled the cupboard - I don't know how the jacket came to be lost ... it's enclosed again now and there are some optimistic sheets of polystyrene on the outside wall - I ought to tell myself off because I stripped the downstairs kitchen last year and threw away loads of polystyrene sheet - I had to sneak it into my neighbours' bins ... but with even less need for hot water now (basically when I need to get vaccinated or similar), the motivation is not there.
> When I move I will go full-on with solar and super-insulation ...


I'm starting to feel like some kind of effete snowflake Urban outlier!


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## Leafster (Oct 18, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> I’ve made sure we have enough cutlery and crockery to make it through up to 5 days before putting the dishwasher on. That uses 1.5kWh each time, so being able to push it that extra day further and only running it when there’s no more space to cram a single dish more into it does save a little bit of leccy.  But food isn’t left to rot on the dirty plates - everything is briefly soaked then blasted with cold water before it goes in, so it’s almost clean while sitting there in the d/w awaiting its turn to be properly washed.
> 
> The number of days we can last between washes varies depending on what we’ve been cooking, but I only ran it 7 times in Sept, so the average seems to be around 4.25 days.


I think I must be profligate with my use of cutlery, crockery and cooking pots as I only seem to be able to manage about 3 days before the dishwasher goes on. 

I used to run it when my app said the energy used had the lowest carbon footprint but now I'm balancing that with the very slight possibility that the heat it generates helps keep my small kitchen just a little bit warmer when I need it.


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## MrCurry (Oct 18, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I think I must be profligate with my use of cutlery, crockery and cooking pots as I only seem to be able to manage about 3 days before the dishwasher goes on.
> 
> I used to run it when my app said the energy used had the lowest carbon footprint but now I'm balancing that with the very slight possibility that the heat it generates helps keep my small kitchen just a little bit warmer when I need it.


I wouldn’t have been able to push it this far with our old Whirlpool Dishwasher, which somehow got filled up every other day, but after changing to an 8 year old Miele machine I picked up for £100 earlier this year, I’ve been really pushing it much further.  It’s hard to understand how, since both are the same size (60cm wide) standard machines, but the Miele is so much better laid out, the racks accommodate 10 plates of each size, plus 10 bowls. It gets us that much further thru the week before it needs switching on.

Christ, this must be the very definition of middle aged failure at life - I’m getting excited over the size of my dishwasher racks


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## alex_ (Oct 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> With my old gas boiler I had the habit of heating the hot water tank most days for half an hour, which would last the day, that was costing around 52.5p on those days, that would be about 76p now.
> 
> With the new combi-boiler it costs under 14p at the new rates for enough hot water to shower and do the washing-up, it's a bit of an inconvenience not having a tank for hot water on tap during the day and having to wait the extra time for the hot water to travel from the boiler to the bathroom, but I've got used to washing my hands with cold water now, although that may change as we head into winter, and much colder water.



That’s a 225 gbp cost saving per year, the government should be giving our free vouchers for boiler swaps….


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## CH1 (Oct 18, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> When I moved in nearly 40 years ago it was enclosed but for some random reason I dismantled the cupboard - I don't know how the jacket came to be lost ... it's enclosed again now and there are some optimistic sheets of polystyrene on the outside wall - I ought to tell myself off because I stripped the downstairs kitchen last year and threw away loads of polystyrene sheet - I had to sneak it into my neighbours' bins ... but with even less need for hot water now (basically when I need to get vaccinated or similar), the motivation is not there.
> When I move I will go full-on with solar and super-insulation ... not sure about the bathing - but I suppose I may have solar energy going spare ...


I would have thought the majority of situations the hot water cylinder would just heat up the house.
When I moved in here I found the boiler in a toilet/out-house so the cylinder took the chill off the loo first thing in the morning. My v. diligent central heating engineer then installed a 40 gallon cylinder with dual thermostatic control and impacted foam insulation - which was fine until the boiler failed completely in 2011 (after 24 years faithful service).
Owing to government regulations I had to change to a Combi, as a recondensing boiler did not fit in the space occupied by the old non-condensing boiler.

Now I'm back to square 1 - and freeze my bollocks off having an early morning crap.


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## AnnaKarpik (Oct 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That doesn't explain it very well for OVO customers.
> 
> 
> 
> I pay by DD, what they are actually doing is crediting your bill, then refunding it to your bank account, then deducting it from you bill.  🤷‍♂️


There's no other way it can be done with the direct debit model because the DD amount is not directly linked to usage in the billing period and neither is the discount.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 18, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I would have thought the majority of situations the hot water cylinder would just heat up the house.


The bathroom extension is completely uninsulated, draughty and exposed.
I always leave the hot water in the bath to cool down afterwards ...  if the water was grubby when it was my first bath in a month, it was *fertiliser *once I'd done my laundry in it - and my beans appreciated it as I pumped it into the drip irrigation system...


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## CH1 (Oct 18, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> The bathroom extension is completely uninsulated, draughty and exposed.
> I always leave the hot water in the bath to cool down afterwards ...  if the water was grubby when it was my first bath in a month, it was *fertiliser *once I'd done my laundry in it - and my beans appreciated it as I pumped it into the drip irrigation system...


1940s washing techniques - another story.

I want a non-silo'd plumber/ch engineer - right now. - to restore my 1960s kitchen. I have a washing machine that died just before Covid struck and a secondhand gas cooker acquired on moving-in in 1986. This has holes in the top of the burner caps - and in the side of one of the burners. I see on Ebay all gas burners and burner caps are now made in China and not guaranteed to work compatibly - or even on "the right type of gas" perhaps.

I could cope with this - but SE Gas Networks have escalated me to Level 5 of threatening a new gas meter plus gas safety checks (started by Ovo incidentsally). To change the meter they have to go through the kitchen - and they might also note that I'm running the central heating boiler from lead plugged into the ring main socket as the dedicated boiler supply which some Wickes enthusiast embedded in the non-damp-proofed concrete floor before my arrival on the scene in 1986 fused out completely in 2013 or so. Not to mention the electric mains "consumer unit" opposite the gas meter which is possibly illegal by now.

I know the guy who installed the Combi could well deal with a replacement gas cooker (eye level grill), replacement washing machine and possible re-wire, but even these local "central heating engineers" stand on their dignity and say "I only do boilers" etc.

No wonder people these days are slaves to Magnet Kitchens and second mortgages.

Maybe I ought to attempt to negotiate with the people who did the boiler, with a view to limiting the damage to a new Turkish Beko gas cooker and a washing machine, preferably one that lasts more than 10 years (as Indesit seem to do). The SLG engineer is very accommodating, but he suffers from matriarchal management (if I'm allowed to say that here). One interesting manifestation of that is the accounts office "test" your account to see if you can pay for the work before they start. Wise enough from their point of view, but makes me feel a bit like a naughty schoolboy.

.


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## MrCurry (Oct 18, 2022)

One of the things I did ages ago in the search for reducing our electricity bills was to make sure everything which has a standby power consumption was on a switched socket and only switched on when being used. Or I thought I did, as one sneaky little bastard escaped me. Can you believe a toaster has a standby consumption? 

i recently found out our Delonghi “Brilliante” toaster was sucking 0.7W continuously when plugged in, and had been doing so for years. Not so brilliant if you ask me!  Now it is switched via the same switch which powers the microwave up only when needed.


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## Chz (Oct 18, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Whatever happened to airing cupboards?


We had one when we moved in - half the closet was the hot water tank and there was a set of shelves above it. Shelves are still there, but a mini hot water tank for 3 adults and an infant wasn't going to fly. So combi-boiler in the kitchen and the washing machine is now in that space. Technically still an airing cupboard, but without any heat source or ventilation to actually dry things out.


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## MickiQ (Oct 18, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Whatever happened to airing cupboards?


We have the combi boiler in ours, when we moved in there was a hot water cylinder in there with the boiler on the back wall of the kitchen. When the extension was built the boiler had to go (or be left hanging in mid air) and the airing cupboard was the ideal place to put the replacement. There was all the necessary water pipes and electricity to it, the plumber just had to run a gas pipe and feed the exhaust through the roof. Plus it gave us a bit more cupboard space, the ironing board lives in there along with the clean towels. I discovered that copper evaporates in sunlight since the plumber put the old tank in the driveway to take away but it had vanished when he came to put it in his van.


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## High Voltage (Oct 18, 2022)

I've had to accept that Mrs Voltz was 100% correct and I was wrong in my assertion that the underfloor heating didn't use very much electricity . . . it does . . . well, not huge amounts but enough to warrant it not being on in the summer (yes, I know, but it's a tile floor and even in the summer can be a tad chilly underfoot)

With the original programme (which was set to fuck knows what) it was using 4-5 KW / day - with a bit of a reprogram I've reduced that to 3-4KW / day

FiFi (the cat's) heating pad, which is rated at 45watts does use just over 1KW / day - but as she's an elderly cat we'll just have to life with that

The problem with the underfloor heating is, whilst it does "take the chill" out of the air, it only just takes the chill out of the air. So Mrs Voltz wants to explore a proper, programmable, dual fuel, heated towel rail. I'm not convinced that what she's looking for exists, but given my track record on "stuff" I'm stfu on this one.

Any thoughts as to how to have a toasty warm bathroom or are they rooms that by their very nature, tend to be on the chilly side


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 18, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I discovered that copper evaporates in sunlight since the plumber put the old tank in the driveway to take away but it had vanished when he came to put it in his van.





If you put anything metal out around here, except fridges & freezers, it tends to evaporate within an hour, I don't understand how they are so quick.


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## Chz (Oct 18, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> The problem with the underfloor heating is, whilst it does "take the chill" out of the air, it only just takes the chill out of the air. So Mrs Voltz wants to explore a proper, programmable, dual fuel, heated towel rail. I'm not convinced that what she's looking for exists, but given my track record on "stuff" I'm stfu on this one.


Dual fuel towel rails exist, which is good enough - you can manage the programmable bit at the socket, which is what we've done. Then you just need to find a smart socket. I used this one, and it works well enough. Daily on/off timers, you can set it for dawn/dusk if you like, or just flick it on when you want and set a timer for it to go off.


			https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0937JQDT6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## Thesaint (Oct 18, 2022)

It may or may not be of any comfort to many but the raw price of gas has been dropping since the summer peak but no guarantee this will filter through to meter prices anytime soon.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 18, 2022)

Thesaint said:


> It may or may not be of any comfort to many but the raw price of gas has been dropping since the summer peak but no guarantee this will filter through to meter prices anytime soon.View attachment 347689



If it continues like that, it's guaranteed that it will be passed on, the OFGEM price cap is based on the wholesale market prices.


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## Leafster (Oct 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> If you put anything metal out around here, except fridges & freezers, it tends to evaporate within an hour, I don't understand how they are so quick.


It takes a lot longer here but that's probably as I'm at the end of a private road.  It takes a few weeks for someone who actually had to visit me or one of my neighbours to get a message to the metal fairies so they can work their magic.


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## Thesaint (Oct 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> If it continues like that, it's guaranteed that it will be passed on, the OFGEM price cap is based on the wholesale market prices.


Presumably anyone who signed up for a fixed price deal in a panic recently won't see any benefit though (not us btw).


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## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 19, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> If you put anything metal out around here, except fridges & freezers, it tends to evaporate within an hour, I don't understand how they are so quick.


they stay but not the compressors in them.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 19, 2022)

Yep, I put a fridge out once for the council and worried I would get blamed for illegally removing the compressor.


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## AnnaKarpik (Oct 19, 2022)

I wish I could meet someone from EDF so I could beat them to a pulp. Has anyone been able to change their direct debit amount online? They keep directing you to non-existent options and I am about to explode.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 19, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> I wish I could meet someone from EDF so I could beat them to a pulp. Has anyone been able to change their direct debit amount online? They keep directing you to non-existent options and I am about to explode.



With OVO, I've just cancel the DD and then set-up a new one a few days later.


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## AnnaKarpik (Oct 19, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> With OVO, I've just cancel the DD and then set-up a new one a few days later.


Well I guess that's an option. It's only three weeks ago they suggested I go online and increase my direct debit; but how?


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## gentlegreen (Oct 19, 2022)

No prob with Bulb - they set a minimum of £61, but I'm going to demand to get it lower to get my £200 surplus down - it says on the website that I can.


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## existentialist (Oct 19, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Yep, I put a fridge out once for the council and worried I would get blamed for illegally removing the compressor.


Ah, you were able to recover the coolant?


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## gentlegreen (Oct 19, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Ah, you were able to recover the coolant?


Sadly no. A random stripped the thing out without asking.
Amazing what local scrappers will take. 
Presumably the casing is no use because of the insulation foam ...


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## MickiQ (Oct 20, 2022)

I've had my refund for my gas bill, just been to the BG website to check out how the leccy bill is doing and it has been "Your Bill will be ready in the next 24hrs" for getting on for a week now


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## moochedit (Oct 20, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I've had my refund for my gas bill, just been to the BG website to check out how the leccy bill is doing and it has been "Your Bill will be ready in the next 24hrs" for getting on for a week now


Probably best to phone them but i'd set a couple of hours aside for the phone queue wait (based on my experience with BG about 15 years ago)


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## MickiQ (Oct 20, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Probably best to phone them but i'd set a couple of hours aside for the phone queue wait (based on my experience with BG about 15 years ago)


Not that bothered I was just curious, I've observed before that British Gas's IT Dept is not the finest. I'm sure they will get round to it.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 22, 2022)

My monthly billing period ended yesterday, 9 days at the old rates & 21 days at the new rates, the total combined electric & gas with VAT comes to just under £52, a saving of about £23 on my average for the July & August bills, before my energy saving measures started to come into being during Sept.

With a credit of £67, £1 from me plus the £66 grant, my credit balance has increased from £570 to almost £585. 

I am well chuffed with that.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 23, 2022)

Last quarter's gas bill £372.
Equivalent quarter last year £158.

Meter reading was accurate. I only have gas heating, & the thermostat is set to not come on until temp is below 14 degrees C. I feel like I've been mugged, & now I know I'm going to continue to be mugged every quarter.


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## MickiQ (Oct 23, 2022)

BG have sent my leccy statement and I have used £581.65 these past 6 months and since I was £779 in credit this has left me £197.14 in credit and they have returned me £7.13 of it. WTF? 
Went to the website to look for a "Refund Me Now You Thieving Cunts!" button like there was for the gas but found only this :-

We can't offer you a credit refund
Paying the same amount every month could mean that during the summer months you might pay more for energy and not use it, and during the winter months need more energy than what you're paying for.
We base your payment amount with the seasons in mind, so we can forecast your plan across the year. Right now, you're in credit by £190.01 but you'll need that to put towards the cold winter days when they arrive.
Because of this, we aren't able to offer you a refund today.*

* Your monthly payments are forecast based on your current usage. We'll review the forecast on the 13th October 2023


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## two sheds (Oct 23, 2022)

"aren't able" is a bit off, "aren't willing" or "can't be fucked" is more accurate.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 23, 2022)

I will be interested to see what European energy consumption looks like this winter.
So Octopus want customers to minimise energy use between 4pm and 7pm.
I will definitely aim to fit in with that. 
Sadly I'm happy to go to bed any time from 6 pm onwards so will need to delay my dinner...
Perhaps I will use this as motivation to fit in with the French pattern of eating lunch and not dinner ...

I still can't get over the quoted "average household" using 40kwh per day - there must be people using a crazy amount.
Even when I wasn't caring enough I only averaged 11.


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## MickiQ (Oct 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I will be interested to see what European energy consumption looks like this winter.
> So Octopus want customers to minimise energy use between 4pm and 7pm.
> I will definitely aim to fit in with that.
> Sadly I'm happy to go to bed any time from 6 pm onwards so will need to delay my dinner...
> ...


Just checked the smart meter and today we have used 14.48 KWh of Gas and 5.96KWh of electricity. There's only the two of us these days but it is a big house even though I have set radiators in unused rooms to 1.
I could well imagine if the kids were still at home we would be using a lot more.


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## planetgeli (Oct 23, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> BG have sent my leccy statement and I have used £581.65 these past 6 months and since I was £779 in credit this has left me £197.14 in credit and they have returned me £7.13 of it. WTF?
> Went to the website to look for a "Refund Me Now You Thieving Cunts!" button like there was for the gas but found only this :-
> 
> We can't offer you a credit refund
> ...




Who sent that? It's like a parent talking down to their kid.

What company?

Oh. BG.

Wankers.


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## NoXion (Oct 23, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I will be interested to see what European energy consumption looks like this winter.
> So Octopus want customers to minimise energy use between 4pm and 7pm.
> I will definitely aim to fit in with that.
> Sadly I'm happy to go to bed any time from 6 pm onwards so will need to delay my dinner...
> ...



40kwh/day seems awfully high, over the year that's 14,600kwh! According to this page by OVO, these are more typical ranges:







If these ranges are truly representative, then that would mean that there are a tiny minority of domestic consumers with truly whopping consumption.

Interestingly, my own electricity consumption for my own flat is well above any of the averages presented here at ~6500kwh per year. Keep in mind I have no gas supply.


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## elbows (Oct 23, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Interestingly, my own electricity consumption for my own flat is well above any of the averages presented here at ~6500kwh per year. Keep in mind I have no gas supply.


Yeah electric heating will make a very big difference to the numbers.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 23, 2022)

The average weed grow is going to use about 10 kwh per day ...


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 24, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> BG have sent my leccy statement and I have used £581.65 these past 6 months and since I was £779 in credit this has left me £197.14 in credit and they have returned me £7.13 of it. WTF?
> Went to the website to look for a "Refund Me Now You Thieving Cunts!" button like there was for the gas but found only this :-
> 
> We can't offer you a credit refund
> ...


This is an extension of them upping your monthly DD, then holding onto your credit for as long as possible. Multiply say £200 per household, by 3 million users, then imagine the interest rate they can get just holding on to your money for 3 months, let alone a year. It's a con.


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## MrCurry (Oct 25, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> 17 degrees in here.
> Feeling the cold ATM.
> Just put on a second duvet and my house coat.
> So far this year I've used 4.7kwh of bed heating but it will actually be more than that because of the power factor.
> Difficult to get the lagging right...


A comment from the “how cold is your house“ thread, but I’m replying here as the clarification I’m asking about has more to do with electricity consumption.  gentlegreen , when you mentioned power factor above, did you mean you would be charged for more than the 4.7kWh you’ve measured, or that you’ve used 4.7kWh of chargeable heat energy but expect you’ve had more heat than that due to a below unity power factor?

I’ve toyed with power factor correction, adding a 0.68uF capacitor to my central heating circulation pump, but I only did so because it lowered the current drawn (by 5.5%) when I ran it from battery via inverter, not because I expected it to change the billed rate from my electricity supplier. When I’ve looked into it in the past, every indication has been that for domestic customers, power factor is not relevant to the billed rates as domestic electricty meters charge in kWh rather than kVA. Would be interesting if you have any info on this, as measuring power factor and correcting it with capacitors is not all that difficult once you’re set up for it.  I just haven’t had a reason to go very far down that road.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 25, 2022)

The thing to do would be to make the power factor WORSE 
But you would need to run a 120 volt pump in series with a capacitor dropper.

My bed heater is 166 watts and I have it on a triac fan speed controller so the PF goes down to 0.3 when turned down. 0.2a  241v 16.8 w indicated 48.2 va.


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## MrCurry (Oct 25, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> The thing to do would be to make the power factor WORSE
> But you would need to run a 120 volt pump in series with a capacitor dropper.
> 
> My bed heater is 166 watts and I have it on a triac fan speed controller so the PF goes down to 0.3 when turned down. 0.2a  241v 16.8 w indicated 48.2 va.


You mean you get more heat per billlable unit by making the PF worse?  Kinda funny if that’s the case, but I see why, if the electricity supplier is only charging kWh, you’re effectively nicking some extra current for free.

I think that wheeze will only be useful for resistive element heating devices.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 25, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> You mean you get more heat per billlable unit by making the PF worse?  Kinda funny of that’s the case, but I see why, if the electricity supplier is only charging kWh, you’re effectively nicking some extra current for free.
> 
> I think that wheeze will only be useful for resistive element heating devices.


Many LED lamps have simple capacitive droppers and a PF of 0.5 Apparently smart meters will at some point start charging for VA - I don't know why they don't already perhaps some ancient legal thing.
It wasn't intentional on my part....


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 25, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Many LED lamps have simple capacitive droppers and a PF of 0.5 Apparently smart meters will at some point start charging for VA - I don't know why they don't already perhaps some ancient legal thing.


Yeah it’s not like utility companies to give away their product for free. Industrial consumers have to pay for VA so typically give a lot of attention to PF correction.


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 25, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> It wasn't intentional on my part....


Don’t burst my bubble… I was starting to regard you as the Robin Hood of utility company fraud!


----------



## CH1 (Oct 25, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> A comment from the “how cold is your house“ thread, but I’m replying here as the clarification I’m asking about has more to do with electricity consumption.  gentlegreen , when you mentioned power factor above, did you mean you would be charged for more than the 4.7kWh you’ve measured, or that you’ve used 4.7kWh of chargeable heat energy but expect you’ve had more heat than that due to a below unity power factor?
> 
> I’ve toyed with power factor correction, adding a 0.68uF capacitor to my central heating circulation pump, but I only did so because it lowered the current drawn (by 5.5%) when I ran it from battery via inverter, not because I expected it to change the billed rate from my electricity supplier. When I’ve looked into it in the past, every indication has been that for domestic customers, power factor is not relevant to the billed rates as domestic electricty meters charge in kWh rather than kVA. Would be interesting if you have any info on this, as measuring power factor and correcting it with capacitors is not all that difficult once you’re set up for it.  I just haven’t had a reason to go very far down that road.


I did a building managers job in an office block in Brixton 2000-2003. There were three lifts - two of industrial scale.
The electricity meters were a "normal" one measuring kWh and another one measuring phase.
Due to switching mania we were introduced to Enron - which only lasted a couple of years, but their meter readers did not know how to read (or maybe were simply not asked to read) the phase meter and ignored it.
No wonder the energy market went to pot!


----------



## kebabking (Oct 26, 2022)

'sup bruv?


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 28, 2022)

Bulb have annoyingly decided to make the October bill only up to the 27th, so the reading is approximately 22 units low - but at £62.61, it's comfortably under the £67. Average 4.5 kwh per day over 31 days. (would have been 4.3 but I had a bath).

---

My new secret weapon.
250 watt "garage heater" I thought was dead but it's just a sticky thermostat.
It's only my feet and ankles that get cold so this will do fine instead of the 1kw fan heater.
I will box-in my trestle table/bench/desk and fit a foot rest ...

Roughly the same output as those lethal "4 tee lights under a flowerpot" things ..

I may still feel able to downgrade to a 20 watt reptile pad at some point ...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 28, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Bulb have annoyingly decided to make the October bill only up to the 27th, so the reading is approximately 22 units low - but at £62.61, it's comfortably under the £67. Average 4.5 kwh per day over 31 days. (would have been 4.3 but I had a bath).



That would have seemed good to me about a six weeks ago, but for the calendar month of Oct, I am now expecting to have used under 75kwh of electric, under 2.5kwh per day, the new fridge-freezer is doing its magic. 

That excludes hot water, which is heated by gas, usage of that will come in at around 25kwh, but I can't make a direct comparison, as that's cheaper, so under £2.50.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That would have seemed good to me about a six weeks ago, but for the calendar month of Oct, I am now expecting to have used under 75kwh of electric, under 2.5kwh per day, the new fridge-freezer is doing its magic.


Sadly the one that was highlighted upthread is not available now and I'm struggling to find an equivalent ...


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 28, 2022)

I've had my massive £7.13 refund off BG for my leccy doing my best not to let it go to my head. I haven't had my £67 of Sunak Money yet, they took my DD's on the 24th. They're scheduled for the 22nd but that was a weekend. I will check next week if I've got the bribe, they did say a few days.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 28, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Sadly the one that was highlighted upthread is not available now and I'm struggling to find an equivalent ...


They all seem to be F-rated now .. I suppose I lose efficiency if I have an ice box ?
Ice box usually means recreational calories though ...
I wonder which sort would be easiest to resell in a couple of years' time ...





__





						Fridges that are priced £150 or less | ao.com
					

A wide range and great deals on our range of Fridges that are priced £150 or less. Flexible delivery available.




					ao.com


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 28, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> They all seem to be F-rated now .. I suppose I lose efficiency if I have an ice box ?
> Ice box usually means recreational calories though ...
> I wonder which sort would be easiest to resell in a couple of years' time ...
> 
> ...



Yeah F-rated was A+ on the old scale.

THIS ONE has a ice box, and Annual Energy Consumption of 107Kwh, so under 0.3kwh per day. 

Anything that new, using so little electric, should re-sell easy enough.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 28, 2022)

This is the one I got a couple of months ago, really happy with it - just enough room: 





__





						Loading…
					





					www.currys.co.uk
				




£100 - was £80 when I got it, may be cheaper elsewhere.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 28, 2022)

two sheds said:


> This is the one I got a couple of months ago, really happy with it - just enough room:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Considering it's so small and doesn't seem to have a ice box, I am surprised it only saves 1kwh per year compared to the one in my last post. 

At a guess I think a normal size fridge, with ice box, would be easier to re-sell.


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 28, 2022)

two sheds said:


> This is the one I got a couple of months ago, really happy with it - just enough room:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


£80-£100 seems amazingly cheap in these days of rampant inflation and stock shortages, even if it’s only a small one.

At the other end of the scale, what kind of a fucknut is going to pay over £7k for a fridge freezer?  Surely a pricing error?





__





						Loading…
					





					www.currys.co.uk


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 28, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> £80-£100 seems amazingly cheap in these days of rampant inflation and stock shortages, even if it’s only a small one.
> 
> At the other end of the scale, what kind of a fucknut is going to pay over £7k for a fridge freezer?  Surely a pricing error?
> 
> ...



I've just checked two other sites, and it's the same price. 😲


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I've just checked two other sites, and it's the same price. 😲


One for people whose main problem in life is how to get rid of all the money they keep getting!


----------



## strung out (Oct 29, 2022)

Bulb are getting bought by Octopus





__





						Bulb will be acquired by Octopus | Blog | Bulb
					

Octopus has announced that it will acquire Bulb. If you’re a Bulb member you do not need to take any action, there’s no change to your supply, and your credit balance is protected. We’ve answered all the questions we think you might have in this blog post, which we’ll keep updated.




					bulb.co.uk


----------



## CH1 (Oct 29, 2022)

strung out said:


> Bulb are getting bought by Octopus
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After the tax-payer has written off the debts!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2022)

CH1 said:


> After the tax-payer has written off the debts!



Not exactly written off, we are all still paying it via the massive increase in the standing charges for electric.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 29, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I've had my massive £7.13 refund off BG for my leccy doing my best not to let it go to my head. I haven't had my £67 of Sunak Money yet, they took my DD's on the 24th. They're scheduled for the 22nd but that was a weekend. I will check next week if I've got the bribe, they did say a few days.


My auntie always phones them up when they keep money in credit and demands it back, and she gets it. Don't know who she is with but have you tried phoning? Probably silly question.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 29, 2022)

Submitting regular readings to Eon having cancelled my direct debit is doing wonders;  despite having cancelled my direct debit at the start of the month when they wanted me to raise it to £120 - I’m still £30 in credit

I’m (reasonably - price is shocking but little I can do but reduce usage) happy to pay for what I use; but I don’t see why I should build up a buffer for winter when I’m unlikely to have the heating on for some time.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 29, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yeah F-rated was A+ on the old scale.
> 
> THIS ONE has a ice box, and Annual Energy Consumption of 107Kwh, so under 0.3kwh per day.
> 
> Anything that new, using so little electric, should re-sell easy enough.


Reading reviews, having a teeny ice box not only adds to the cost, they aren't good for much more than a few ice cubes and can make the rest of the fridge too cold - and then there's defrosting ...
I used to buy frozen peas on a Saturday and eat them over two days - and that was before I even had a fridge ...
Just need to choose one ...


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 29, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> My auntie always phones them up when they keep money in credit and demands it back, and she gets it. Don't know who she is with but have you tried phoning? Probably silly question.


I'm sure that if I pursued it aggressively they would give me my credit  balance back but at the moment I'm OK leaving it with them to see  how things pan out over winter. They haven't put my DD's up this time so let's see how much of that credit balance is around in a few months


----------



## moochedit (Oct 29, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I'm sure that if I pursued it aggressively they would give me my credit  balance back but at the moment I'm OK leaving it with them to see  how things pan out over winter. They haven't put my DD's up this time so let's see how much of that credit balance is around in a few months


Yeah unless you really need the money now then i'd leave it too. Its suppossed to balance it out so you dont pay more in winter and less in summer so its normal to have a credit balance at certain times of the year.


----------



## Tanya1982 (Oct 29, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Fuck it, I am getting one of these.
> 
> View attachment 339800


Well, I hope you don't smoke, because that'd be a terrible way to go.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 30, 2022)

An explanation of that ludicrous sounding incentive for Smart meter off-peak use ...


----------



## CH1 (Oct 30, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> An explanation of that ludicrous sounding incentive for Smart meter off-peak use ...



Sounds like nonsense to me.
But not as aggressive as the cold call I got on Friday afternoon about the new government scheme where you have to sell you house to pay for social care.


----------



## elbows (Oct 30, 2022)

I dont understand the thinking of people who think its nonsense. Reducing demand at times of peak demand is one way to try to balance things during periods where supply may struggle to meet demand.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 30, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> My new secret weapon.
> 250 watt "garage heater" I thought was dead but it's just a sticky thermostat.
> It's only my feet and ankles that get cold so this will do fine instead of the 1kw fan heater.
> I will box-in my trestle table/bench/desk and fit a foot rest ...
> ...



I tried this on my dimmer and at the lowest setting it chucks out about 69 watts for an indicated 18 I think ...
This is going to be a convection rather than radiant version of a kotatsu.
I will enclose my workbench somewhat ...


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 30, 2022)

elbows said:


> I dont understand the thinking of people who think its nonsense. Reducing demand at times of peak demand is one way to try to balance things during periods where supply may struggle to meet demand.


It's also an incentive for people to get smart meters.
I don't know if I can oblige voluntarily with the 0.5kwh I use to cook my dinner because I want to get to bed by 8 ...


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 30, 2022)

My smart meter phones home every 30 mins apparently so I imagine that BG have a very accurate record of how I use energy during the day and how much I use on average during 4-7pm. It should be easy for them to tell how much less I am using and thus work out my payment. The smart thing to do is to start moving things I do outside of peak load into peak load now to load up my usage ready for working out my discount.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> The smart thing to do is to start moving things I do outside of peak load into peak load now to load up my usage ready for working out my discount.


That was what got me about this. I don't understand why it's not simply economy 7 - it rewards the profligate and cynical


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 30, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> That was what got me about this. I don't understand why it's not simply economy 7 - it rewards the profligate and cynical


Me too tbh, If the energy companies just offered a discount off kwh used 00.00-07.00, and a smaller discount off 09.00-16.00  I would be actively looking for shit to move to that time period. Both the dishwasher and washing machines have built-in timers I and would be looking long and hard about what other stuff could be time shifted. I could invest in smart plugs to turn the freezers off for a few hours in the peak period for instance.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 30, 2022)

elbows said:


> I dont understand the thinking of people who think its nonsense. Reducing demand at times of peak demand is one way to try to balance things during periods where supply may struggle to meet demand.


Have you got a link to where Octopus pay you a double payment of 75p oer unit to turn your power off between 4pm and 6pm?
And a review from a respectable source such as Moneybox or Martin Lewis?
The video is all about some experimental scheme involving getting paid.


----------



## elbows (Oct 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Me too tbh, If the energy companies just offered a discount off kwh used 00.00-07.00, and a smaller discount off 09.00-16.00  I would be actively looking for shit to move to that time period. Both the dishwasher and washing machines have built-in timers I and would be looking long and hard about what other stuff could be time shifted. I could invest in smart plugs to turn the freezers off for a few hours in the peak period for instance.


I think its because its a winter desperation measure that they only intend to make use of on certain particular days on the calendar, if and when the shit really hits the fan with balancing supply and demand.

Because it is a desperate attempt to give them more wiggle room when required this winter, most of the previous conversation about this came up on that other thread I started about potential shortages, most of which happened from this post onwards:        #165     

It wasnt the tidiest conversation, there was some confusion, and even I eventually got frustrated with how some of the info has been presented so far. I was mostly going to leave further conversation alone until the mainstream media had more opportunities to talk about it in a context more people could relate to.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 30, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Have you got a link to where Octopus pay you a double payment of 75p oer unit to turn your power off between 4pm and 6pm?
> And a review from a respectable source such as Moneybox or Martin Lewis?
> The video is all about some experimental scheme involving getting paid.



It was an experimental scheme, the National Grid is now planning to roll it out if required, it's been discussed on the 'UK gas/electricity supply shortages this winter' thread, see the link provided by elbows above.


----------



## elbows (Oct 30, 2022)

Part of the confusion is because the National Grid pay the electricity suppliers who sign up to this scheme, and those energy companies then manage how they offer this to their customers in their own way, with their own marketing and names for the scheme etc.

So last time this scheme got in the news, some of the detail was still a bit vague and fragmented. Here is an example article:









						Consumers save nearly £3m by reducing energy use at peak hours, says the ESO | MoneyWeek
					

The ESO’s Demand Flexibility Service rewards consumers for using less energy during peak hours.



					moneyweek.com
				






> Over the next two weeks, the ESO will launch a campaign to inform households and businesses about its new scheme. The body expects most suppliers to sign up to it but hasn’t yet released specific details.
> 
> How you get the money will be down to your supplier, but it could come as a credit on bills – similar to the £66 instalments we’re getting as part of the £400 energy grant.





> Octopus Energy has also unveiled its own scheme, “Saving Sessions”. For every unit of energy that customers save compared to their typical usage throughout a set time, Octopus calculates it will pay its 1.4 million smart meter customers £4 on average – saving them around £100 throughout the winter, until March 2023. The supplier will send customers an email with information about its scheme and how they can sign up to get a text outlining the hours when they should use less electricity to get qualify for the payment.
> 
> Ovo Energy has launched a similar scheme. The supplier is asking volunteers to cut their average energy consumption between 4 pm and 7 pm – when it claims we use up to one-fifth of our energy. If you manage to lower your energy use to Ovo’s threshold, it will pay you £20. Its trial will run from November 2022 to March 2023. You don’t have to do anything if you choose not to take part — you’ll just be billed at the standard 34p per kWh rate.



Articles like that one said the scheme as a whole was supposed to launch on November 1st so Im hoping there will be more opportunities for people to get their heads round it later this week. I havent kept up with what individual suppliers might have said about it since articles like that were written. And articles like that one arent brilliant at being completely clear as to whether these individual suppliers schemes are an additional separate thing or are the way they are passing on the wider National Grid ESO scheme to customers.


----------



## contadino (Oct 30, 2022)

So I've seen loads of 200w solar panels with charge controller on eBay for £25ish and I could pop one on my garage roof and get a good yield. Obviously I'd need a leisure battery and inverter, but that could power my freezer and washing machine, right? (Washing machine runs once, maybe twice a week...)


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 30, 2022)

you'll be lucky to get 100 watts this time of year at noon - your washing machine will need 3kw...
Typical deep cycle lead acid battery 1.2kwh ?

You're at least an order of magnitude out ...

two sheds has a fairly small system - but it'll be at least 10 times that size.
I wonder if those are chinese watts ...









						200 Watt 12 Volt Solar Starter Kit w/ MPPT Charge Controller
					

This kit comes with two 100W Monocrystalline Solar Panels totaling 200 Watt, one 20 Amp MPPT Charge Controller, 20' MC4 Extension Cables, and two sets of Z brackets for Mounting. Free Shipping! On Sale!




					uk.renogy.com
				




£369.99


----------



## elbows (Oct 30, 2022)

I'll try to describe some of the confusion and difficulty getting a handle on all the detail by using Octopus as an example:

Firstly they already offer various different tariffs that include several different 'pay less for certain hours overnight' schemes that are a bit more convoluted than the old economy 7.

They did issue the following press release in October which makes it clear that the new scheme is built on top of the National Grid scheme:









						Blackout Busters: Octopus Energy customers could make £100 whilst helping end power cuts
					






					octopus.energy
				




But then when looking at the detail on that page, the sort of amounts of money mentioned in that one are "based on a customer who turns down 1kWh in ~25 events (1-2 per week) at an average £4/kWh". On the other thread there was some discussion of how many such events there would actually be. Probably the number will relate to how many times the shit actually hits the fan this winter, so nobody can say for sure, but it also sounds like there will be a whole bunch of test events where the National Grid activate the scheme (and pay suppliers who then pay customers) to make sure its all working and can generate the sort of response from customers they are hoping for.

But then there is more confusion because if people click on the link in the above press release to sign up, they end up on a page that wanks on and on about the previous trials that Octopus already did in the past (We paid customers to use less power at peak times. Here's what happened. ). Presumably if you then click on the pink button on that other page to sign up to express interest, you'll actually get stuff relevant to the new scheme, because a page appears that mentions 'Saving Sessions', but as I'm not a customer of theirs I cant get past that stage.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 30, 2022)

elbows said:


> I'll try to describe some of the confusion and difficulty getting a handle on all the detail by using Octopus as an example:
> 
> Firstly they already offer various different tariffs that include several different 'pay less for certain hours overnight' schemes that are a bit more convoluted than the old economy 7.
> 
> ...



Can we keep this to the other thread, rather than duplicating the discussion?


----------



## elbows (Oct 30, 2022)

In future I will try to talk about it in the other thread but since others brought it up here I wanted to at least summarise where we had got to previously with the detail. I sort of suspect it will still keep coming up here too due to the way its dressed up as an opportunity for people to save money, but I'll try to do my bit to keep it on the other thread when I can.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 30, 2022)

If it comes up again on this thread, just link to the other one.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 31, 2022)

Too many overlapping threads


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## MrCurry (Oct 31, 2022)

What is “the other thread”? 🤷‍♂️


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 31, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> What is “the other thread”? 🤷‍♂️


One on  heating and energy saving tips,  and. "how cold is your house ?", which overlaps with the F-ing weather thread.


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 31, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> One on  heating and energy saving tips,  and. "how cold is your house ?", which overlaps with the F-ing weather thread.


i see no thread on heating and energy saving tips, so likely it’s started by someone I’ve blocked.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2022)

Anyone on prepayment meters? 









						UK government’s £400 energy bill support going unclaimed
					

Many households who use non-smart prepayment meters are failing to redeem vouchers, says PayPoint




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## CH1 (Oct 31, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Anyone on prepayment meters?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a friend with a Smart meter who says they had £67 credited on the meter?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 31, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I have a friend with a Smart meter who says they had £67 credited on the meter?



Smart meters are credited, people with dumb meters get vouchers.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 31, 2022)

I've just received(today) my first payment of Sunak Money of £66 into my bank account not credited to my meter.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 31, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I've just received(today) my first payment of Sunak Money of £66 into my bank account not credited to my meter.



That's normal for people not on prepayment meters.


----------



## strung out (Oct 31, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Thanks normal for people not on prepayment meters.


I got mine credited to my Bulb balance on October 1st.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 31, 2022)

strung out said:


> I got mine credited to my Bulb balance on October 1st.



That's also normal, for people with energy accounts, some companies pay it into your bank, others credit it to your energy account.

The posts above were about prepayment meters, where people get it credited to their smart meter or if they have dumb meters they get vouchers.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 31, 2022)

The email I had back in September told me they would pay it me a few days after they took my DD (presumably they wanted to take my money off me before they let me have some back) For historical reasons (it was the date Evil American Megacorp used to pay me) my DD's go out on the 22nd. It so happened that was a Sat this month so they took my DD's on Mon 24th and gave me my refund on Mon 31st (Today yay!) so I guess that will be it going forward.
I'm well enough off with a more than sufficient cash balance to just shrug my shoulders about that one week gap but I would imagine others might not be so fortunate and be forced to skimp a bit whilst waiting for their money back.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 1, 2022)

I was hoping to get my monthly electric consumption down from an average of 150kwh to 100kwh, after the new fridge freezer came into use at the start of October I soon realised I was likely to do better than that and perhaps get it down to somewhere nearer 75kwh, I am well chuffed to have ended up using only 67.82kwh in the whole of October, that's an average of under 2.2kwh per day.  

At the new OVO rates, and including VAT, that reduces my electric usage cost from £52.97 to just £23.95, a saving of £29.02, equal to £348.24pa, and means the new fridge freezer will have paid for itself in an about 8.5 months!

Of course, I can't do anything about the bloody standing charges, which adds £13.29 to the month, making a total £37.24, but considering before the prices started taking off, and before OVO's silly over-estimating after they took over SSE's retail division, I had been paying £30pm for electric anyway, so that's amazing!


The comparison with the month before is also amazing!



Mainly due to the mild weather, but also the new boiler means I am no longer wasting money heating a hot water tank since the 1st Sept., the gas usage for October is impressive compared to the year before, using 682kwh less, meaning it cost me £1.78 for hot water only, compared to what it would have cost if I had used the same as last year of £71.94, saving £70.02.



£1.78 gas use plus £8.83 in bloody standing charges, totals £10.61, add in the electric at £37.24, the total for the month is £47.85 minus the £66.00 government grant, and I am up by £18.15 on the month, which makes cupid a very happy stunt. 

At a guess I'll end up using £300 on heating over the winter months, and say £50pm on average excluding heating, that would total £900pa or £75pm, which would be amazing as before the price madness I had been paying £63pm for both electric & gas, and especially as at OVO's peak madness they thought I should be paying £191pm!


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 1, 2022)

Cue new competitive thread "How low is your bill ?"
I will have to get a new fridge ordered this week.
I still haven't figured out what accounted for the rest of my wastage especially as I only started using my camping fridge last year and my consumption was the same before.


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 1, 2022)

I can’t match @cupid_stunt’s low level of consumption for Oct, but nonetheless pretty happy with the year on year reductions we have achieved.

My top tip for reducing consumption would be to measure and record your use each month and even if you don‘t graph it in a spreadsheet like I’ve been doing, at least be aware of the previous year’s figure and try to beat your own record each month. That keeps you motivated to keep running around the house finding ways to switch off standby power hogs, turn down the thermostat or use appliances more efficiently, etc.


----------



## Elpenor (Nov 1, 2022)

£47 for October, using the widget that tells my usage which I assume to be accurate 

I think that’s the amount for both fuels but not sure if it’s standing charge included? Hopefully. I wasn’t in the house for about 10 days but didn’t unplug anything whilst I was away


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 1, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> I can’t match @cupid_stunt’s low level of consumption for Oct, but nonetheless pretty happy with the year on year reductions we have achieved.
> 
> My top tip for reducing consumption would be to measure and record your use each month and even if you don‘t graph it in a spreadsheet like I’ve been doing, at least be aware of the previous year’s figure and try to beat your own record each month. That keeps you motivated to keep running around the house finding ways to switch off standby power hogs, turn down the thermostat or use appliances more efficiently, etc.
> 
> View attachment 349765



That's some bloody impressive reductions over the years, and especially when compared to 2017, during Jun-Sept 2022 you actually used less than I did, before things started changing here.

Judging by the pattern there, I am assuming you use electric for heating, which would explain your use doubling in Oct. compared to Sept., which is still impressive as I assume it's been a lot colder where you are compared to here on the Sussex coast.


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 1, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Anyone on prepayment meters?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was going to ask about this. It doesn't seem to say or link to how they can claim.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 1, 2022)

quimcunx said:


> I was going to ask about this. It doesn't seem to say or link to how they can claim.



You shouldn't need to make a claim, the electric supplier should automaticity process it.

If they don't, people need to contact their electric supplier in the usual ways.


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's some bloody impressive reductions over the years, and especially when compared to 2017, during Jun-Sept 2022 you actually used less than I did, before things started changing here.
> 
> Judging by the pattern there, I am assuming you use electric for heating, which would explain your use doubling in Oct. compared to Sept., which is still impressive as I assume it's been a lot colder where you are compared to here on the Sussex coast.


Yeah, whatever we do to reduce the baseline consumption, the winter months are dominated by the electric heating (ground source heatpump via borehole), so we are at the mercy of the weather. Last Dec was especially vicious with two weeks of -20C nights, so this year there’s potential for a major reduction if we get more normal weather in that month.

Having already tried every trick I could think of between 2016-2021 I did cheat by installing a small 1.8kWp solar off grid system, which accounts for this year’s summer consumption taking a drop compared to the year before. But the solar doesn’t really contribute to the saving in Oct, as we’ve had no sunshine, so it’s really dropping the thermostat from 20 to 18 and a more efficient fridge freezer which takes the bulk of the credit for that.

What I’ve learned with all the effort I’ve put into beating the previous year is there‘s no silver bullet, it’s about making lots of small changes and measuring your consumption along the way (and then cheating by installing solar panels when you can’t improve your numbers any more )


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Nov 1, 2022)

Mine was double for the same period last year and I used alot less.
Today you can register with the tax authorities here to get the tax back on your fuel bills.  What a common sense idea.


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 1, 2022)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> Mine was double for the same period last year and I used alot less.
> Today you can register with the tax authorities here to get the tax back on your fuel bills.  What a common sense idea.


Can you? How do you do that?

Edit: thought you were in Sweden, but looks like you’re perhaps in Copenhagen. Ignore question then.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Nov 1, 2022)

ja. desværre mit svensk ven


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 1, 2022)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> ja. desværre mit svensk ven


We have a not very generous 0.5kr/kWh rebate scheme coming up. Bit pointless when everyone‘s paying different rates and some are probably on fixed contracts from 2 years ago and already paying less than the rebate amount.


----------



## dessiato (Nov 1, 2022)

Finally got our contract sorted out for power. The estimate is based on my f-i-l usage because we’re taking over his account. £1000 for electricity, and £2500 for gas. I know it’s a big house, but, even so, this seems a lot of money. We’re not going to have DD because he had a credit of £1800 in the account, this is being transferred to us and we‘ll use it to pay with.

We want a smart meter fitting for gas and electricity. Apparently this isn’t possible for several weeks because they don’t have an engineer available.


----------



## High Voltage (Nov 1, 2022)

dessiato said:


> We want a smart meter fitting for gas and electricity.



I've got to ask the question, Why?


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I've got to ask the question, Why?


Because as others have said idiot power companies over estimate and hence over charge which they can't do with a smart meter.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I've got to ask the question, Why?



So you can cry slowly in the evenings when you want to put the heating on and you can see how much it costs you in real time.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 1, 2022)

I've relented ... feeling a bit down and didn't want to go to bed super-early, so I have my feet resting on my heater on minimum - 80VA, 25 watt indicated.
The temperature sensor quickly turned it off once the space above it got to 18.
I've used a total of 5kwh of (bed) heat so far over the past few weeks ...


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I've got to ask the question, Why?


Why not? OK the power companies are pushing them first and foremost for their own benefit but I've had one for years and it has benefitted me as well. It will even do even more so if I sign up for the "Doing Your Washing at Night and Get Money Off" deal.
The main downside that people seem to keep mentioning is that it enables the energy companies to switch you to pre-payment  or cut you off remotely more easily. But if you're relying on that you're in trouble anyway. They have to go through the same process whether you have a smart or a dumb. Not having a smart meter might (at best) buy you a few weeks before they come kick the door in to install a (no doubt smart) pre-payment meter whether you want one or not.


----------



## High Voltage (Nov 1, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Why not? OK the power companies are pushing them first and foremost for their own benefit but I've had one for years and it has benefitted me as well. It will even do even more so if I sign up for the "Doing Your Washing at Night and Get Money Off" deal.
> The main downside that people seem to keep mentioning is that it enables the energy companies to switch you to pre-payment  or cut you off remotely more easily. But if you're relying on that you're in trouble anyway. They have to go through the same process whether you have a smart or a dumb. Not having a smart meter might (at best) buy you a few weeks before they come kick the door in to install a (no doubt smart) pre-payment meter whether you want one or not.


It will also enable them to "surge price" charge you


----------



## Sue (Nov 1, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I've relented ... feeling a bit down and didn't want to go to bed super-early, so I have my feet resting on my heater on minimum - 80VA, 25 watt indicated.
> The temperature sensor quickly turned it off once the space above it got to 18.
> I've used a total of 5kwh of (bed) heat so far over the past few weeks ...


How's your foot? Hope the gout's got better.


----------



## rubbershoes (Nov 1, 2022)

My usage is normally around 60kwh in summer months but goes up to 85kwh per month in the winter.

Apologies for crappy screenshot


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 1, 2022)

Sue said:


> How's your foot? Hope the gout's got better.


Thanks 
All cleared up by Sunday and I walked 4 miles yesterday 
Not sure what triggered it - possibly dehydration - it was mild enough that I still managed to limp to the park even if I had to make the walk shorter.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 1, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> It will also enable them to "surge price" charge you



Far more likely to be used for discounts, than charging extra, at least until every home has been forced to have them.

I also expect that when the market settles down, energy suppliers will start offering a lower tariff for smart meters, as they are easier for them, using the same basis logic of having higher tariffs for pre-payment meters.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 1, 2022)

It's also nice not to have to read the meter every month for those of us who don't pay by DD.


----------



## strung out (Nov 1, 2022)

I'm surprised people haven't started calling them scab meters yet.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Far more likely to be used for discounts, than charging extra, at least until every home has been forced to have them.
> 
> I also expect that when the market settles down, energy suppliers will start offering a lower tariff for smart meters, as they are easier for them, using the same basis logic of having higher tariffs for pre-payment meters.


They already have, that's the reason I got one in the first place since all the cheaper tariffs at the time were conditional on having a smart meter


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 1, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> They already have, that's the reason I got one in the first place since all the cheaper tariffs at the time were conditional on having a smart meter



Oh, I didn't know that, although I had been transferred from SSE to OVO and had to deal with all the shit about over charging, before getting smart meters, by which time the market was fucked, and there doesn't seem to be any deals out there now.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 1, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Oh, I didn't know that, although I had been transferred from SSE to OVO and had to deal with all the shit about over charging, before getting smart meters, by which time the market was fucked, and there doesn't seem to be any deals out there now.


There aren't now but I've had a smart meter since April 2018 there were back then


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Nov 2, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Because as others have said idiot power companies over estimate and hence over charge which they can't do with a smart meter.


If you're on monthly direct debits with EDF they can and do still overestimate and over charge when you have a smart meter. EDF estimates your usage and divides by six for the next half year payments, conveniently ignoring any credit on your account.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 2, 2022)

I'm not opposed to smart meters - they seem like a good idea for a whole bunch of reasons - notably with the distributed (solar) power generation of the future - and in the near future I hope to move somewhere worth investing in solar .
In France, not only do EDF use smart meters, you get to decide your maximum power requirements for a cheaper tariff..

New fridge on the way for Friday, which hopefully will see me cooking my own beans for the week and organising my meals better generally - as well as saving me 1.5kwh per day 
I have two days to clear a safe path upstairs for it.

It's just struck me that with solar I will feel inclined to do my cooking and possibly eating in the middle of the day like the locals... and perhaps have battery storage for breakfast - and bake my bread in the daytime too ...


----------



## dessiato (Nov 2, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I'm not opposed to smart meters - they seem like a good idea for a whole bunch of reasons - notably with the distributed (solar) power generation of the future - and in the near future I hope to move somewhere worth investing in solar .
> In France, not only do EDF use smart meters, you get to decide your maximum power requirements for a cheaper tariff..
> 
> New fridge on the way for Friday, which hopefully will see me cooking my own beans for the week and organising my meals better generally - as well as saving me 1.5kwh per day
> ...


I’m not sure if it’s still the case, but Spain had a requirement for all new builds to have solar panels fitted. In the south, with three hundred days of sunshine, it makes a lot of sense.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 2, 2022)

You won't need battery storage for breakfast if you have breakfast at around 10 o'clock (earlier if your panels point due south I presume). It's best for evenings.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 2, 2022)

dessiato said:


> I’m not sure if it’s still the case, but Spain had a requirement for all new builds to have solar panels fitted. In the south, with three hundred days of sunshine, it makes a lot of sense.


My target destination is Brittany though 
I may invest in a small wind turbine as compensation for all the days when the sea is too choppy 

And it's very unlikely to be new build - and many of the neighbours will be second home owners - so not much solar about ...


----------



## dessiato (Nov 2, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> My target destination is Brittany though
> I may invest in a small wind turbine as compensation for all the days when the sea is too choppy
> 
> And it's very unlikely to be new build - and many of the neighbours will be second home owners - so not much solar about ...


Brittany is beautiful. Spain is warmer though. There’s no reason not to put panels on a roof though, well, none that I can think of anyway. Actually that’s not true, our house, (Scotland) conservation zone, grade 2 listed, cannot have solar panels fitted.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 2, 2022)

dessiato said:


> Brittany is beautiful. Spain is warmer though. There’s no reason not to put panels on a roof though, well, none that I can think of anyway. Actually that’s not true, our house, (Scotland) conservation zone, grade 2 listed, cannot have solar panels fitted.


Is there a shed you could put them on /build and put them on? Or a lean-to or something. 

Not sure if I said gentlegreen I looked at wind power for my place but there are trees about 50 yards away which give turbulent flow which would make wind useless.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 2, 2022)

Thanks to the Sunak money, my Bulb credit has just got silly again.
Hopefully when the next even smaller bill comes through, they will allow me to cut my payment down below the minimum £61.


----------



## strung out (Nov 2, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Thanks to the Sunak money, my Bulb credit has just got silly again.
> Hopefully when the next even smaller bill comes through, they will allow me to cut my payment down below the minimum £61.


Yeah, my Bulb credit is up to £750 now. My April holiday spending fund will be glad


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 2, 2022)

Email from the landlord today. 

_IMPORTANT REMINDER TO STOP CONDENSATION FORMING NOW ITS WINTER_ 


Hi *************

Hope your well 

An important reminder to help manage condensation now that its winter & cold for the next 6 months until April 2023 - Here are a few tips on managing condensation:- 

1) _Its extremely important to maintain a constant warm temperature in your property to stop condensation from forming_ - (A polite reminder) - As per the general info email you agreed to use the heating every day whilst living in the property throughout the winter months of early October 2022 through to end of April 2023 & keep the property at a minimum temperature of 19 degrees throughout the tenancy period - As previously explained to keep the property warm & heated whilst occupied otherwise no heating on during the winter WILL cause condensation & black mould issues to occur inside your property (Bristol City Council - Leaflet can be provided which explains & confirms this in more detail - Please let me know if you would like a copy) 

2) If you see any black condensation mould please wipe it away straight away with a water and bleach mix or anti mould spray - Otherwise black condensation mould will damage the paintwork if left not cleaned 

3) Leave all your internal doors open as much as you can or whilst you are out to help air circulation throughout the property 

4) Try and open windows every day for at least couple of ours to let clean fresh air in 

5) Don’t push furniture up against outside walls - This will stop air circulation & cause a build-up in moisture behind it

6) Make sure you use extractor fans (Where provided) in bathrooms and kitchens

7) Open your bathroom and kitchen windows after each & every use for at least 30-45 minutes to let all the moisture & moist air out & fresh air in 

8) Try not to dry too much washing inside your property to dry unless you have to - If you have a washer dryer please use it, or dehumidifier, or if you have a garden put washing on the washing line outside 

Many thanks ****


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## gentlegreen (Nov 2, 2022)

I wonder what the science says ... I suppose it's to do with the dewpoint.
I've never done any of that - only ever heated the room I live in - and I'm not intending even to do that from now on.
Only me living here and I don't do much laundry but have rarely dried stuff outdoors.
But the parts I don't spend time in are over-ventilated...

The correct solution is insulation ...


----------



## existentialist (Nov 2, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I wonder what the science says ... I suppose it's to do with the dewpoint.
> I've never done any of that - only ever heated the room I live in - and I'm not intending even to do that from now on.
> Only me living here and I don't do much laundry but have rarely dried stuff outdoors.
> But the parts I don't spend time in are over-ventilated...
> ...


Insulation, and ventilation. I guess the heating option is by way of mitigation if the insulation (which ought to be the landlord's problem) and ventilation aren't up to snuff.

I do have a mould problem on the back wall of my bedroom, so just take care to make sure nothing significant is up against it. My bedroom window is always open, at least a bit, and I open the bathroom window and shut the door (much to the rabbits' chagrin) when I have a shower, as it does get quite misty in there.

But screw that heating thing - I'm only doing that when _I_ need the heating!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 2, 2022)

We never put the heat on and struggle with mould, it’s also not our flat so fuck off im saving money and wiping down when I can.

It’s not so bad here but we had a big Georgian place a few years ago that was impossible to heat (and no electric fan in the rear bathroom just a vent) and as there was no sun the entire back wall that was always in the shade went mouldy


----------



## two sheds (Nov 2, 2022)

Another approving remark for:









						HG mould spray - 500ml
					

Buy the HG Mould Spray - 500ml  at Robert Dyas online. Free Click & Collect on this product or Free Standard Home Delivery when you spend over £50




					www.robertdyas.co.uk
				




Also similar price off ebay. Can get for £4.00 off amazon I saw. I've just reordered after using it to clear mould off my front room and spare room walls. Really good stuff and less of a chlorine smell than the dettol mould and mildew remover which is also good.


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## Elpenor (Nov 2, 2022)

This has reminded me that the bookcases I had planned to be against an external wall in my bedroom need to be offset from the wall by a few inches to aid ventilation.  I also need to find some 100mm L shaped brackets to attach them to the wall


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 2, 2022)

My partner was WFH today


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Nov 2, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> My partner was WFH today
> 
> View attachment 350002


is their job burning bodies on electrical power to a cinder or am I really lucky?

e2a: I think I am really lucky so I'll probably shut up from now on


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 3, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> My partner was WFH today
> 
> View attachment 350002



Blimey, what are the circumstances that has resulted in that much being used?

I wasn't even using that much per day back in Jan., which was a bloody cold month, and I was WFH (that's gas + electric use and standing charges at the new rates, and inc. VAT), and that was with a 30+ year old totally inefficient boiler, in a large 2 double bedroom bungalow, although it's well insulated & double glazed.

I am genuinely puzzled how that much can be used on a November day.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 3, 2022)

Mrs Q has started checking the temperature on the ThermoPro each morning and saying things like "Oh it's warmer than I thought" this has the potential to be a money saver in a way that is totally unexpected.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Blimey, what are the circumstances that has resulted in that much being used?
> 
> I wasn't even using that much per day back in Jan., which was a bloody cold month, and I was WFH (that's gas + electric use and standing charges at the new rates, and inc. VAT), and that was with a 30+ year old totally inefficient boiler, in a large 2 double bedroom bungalow, although it's well insulated & double glazed.
> 
> I am genuinely puzzled how that much can be used on a November day.



Mostly a bit of heating in the day and then in the evening. She claims (and I believe her) that it was just short bursts to take the chill off.

Need to look again at getting a small heater. Kicking myself I didn't get an infa red panel heater earlier this year when I looked, they've over doubled in price.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 3, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Mostly a bit of heating in the day and then in the evening. She claims (and I believe her) that it was just short bursts to take the chill off.



Does not compute, unless you live in a barn. 

Or, are you using electric for heating?  (the meter shows combined electric & gas use, so I assumed it was gas for heating)


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 3, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Mrs Q has started checking the temperature on the ThermoPro each morning and saying things like "Oh it's warmer than I thought" this has the potential to be a money saver in a way that is totally unexpected.


Stick it somewhere where the morning sun hits it and you’ll be quids in… ☀️🌡️😆


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Does not compute, unless you live in a barn.
> 
> Or, are you using electric for heating?  (the meter shows combined electric & gas use, so I assumed it was gas for heating)



Yes that's combined. No heating would be sub £3.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 3, 2022)

I don't think £7.10 is all that unbelievable, I've been to the BG website and checked (another plug for smart meters) I used £6.21 on Mon and £6.24 on Tue. Working from home I'm powering a big desktop, a laptop, a disk array and a monitor plus the usual standby stuff (fridge's etc) The heating is on from 6 to 8 and then off again till just before Mrs Q gets home. Our boiler drives 13 radiators (though I've turned 4 of them down to 1 so they just tick over) plus all the hot water.
Running it in short bursts to take the chill out is probably not all that efficient since the water in the system will need to get reheated from scratch every time, probably best to have it on solid for a couple of hours then leave it and rely on insulation (God I still feel smug about doing that) 


MrCurry said:


> Stick it somewhere where the morning sun hits it and you’ll be quids in… ☀️🌡️😆


I'll have to see if she notices if I put it on top of a radiator.


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Blimey, what are the circumstances that has resulted in that much being used?


Blacksmithing.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 3, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Blacksmithing.


I'm still looking for the forgotten pottery kiln in my house that was eating electricity ...


----------



## teuchter (Nov 3, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> Email from the landlord today.
> 
> _IMPORTANT REMINDER TO STOP CONDENSATION FORMING NOW ITS WINTER_
> 
> ...


Seems a bit over the top - the individual measures are all correct in themselves as far as reducing condensation is concerned but doing them all simultaneously doesn't really make sense.

The instruction to open windows for a couple of hours each day is particularly unnecessary, I would say.


----------



## Elpenor (Nov 3, 2022)

£93 in credit thanks to the govt £67 top up

Had I allowed my direct debit increase to have as Eon wanted it to I would be £329 in credit and Eon would be happy but I wouldn’t


----------



## rubbershoes (Nov 3, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> My partner was WFH today
> 
> View attachment 350002




My usage in September was 60 kwh, for which I paid just over £20.  Leaving aside using almost the same amount in a single day, how come my rate appears to be twice yours?


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 3, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> My usage in September was 60 kwh, for which I paid just over £20.  Leaving aside using almost the same amount in a single day, how come my rate appears to be twice yours?


yes at only 12p per KWH, I can understand someone being a bit less careful ..
Incidentally you're doing really well. My low spec PC alone burns 170 watts x 12 hours = 2.04kwh per day..


----------



## contadino (Nov 3, 2022)

dessiato said:


> I’m not sure if it’s still the case, but Spain had a requirement for all new builds to have solar panels fitted. In the south, with three hundred days of sunshine, it makes a lot of sense.


They implemented that in Italy too. The price of solar panels tripled overnight.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 3, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> My usage in September was 60 kwh, for which I paid just over £20.  Leaving aside using almost the same amount in a single day, how come my rate appears to be twice yours?



A lot of theirs will be gas, I am guessing you're just talking about electric?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 3, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I don't think £7.10 is all that unbelievable, I've been to the BG website and checked (another plug for smart meters) I used £6.21 on Mon and £6.24 on Tue. Working from home I'm powering a big desktop, a laptop, a disk array and a monitor plus the usual standby stuff (fridge's etc) The heating is on from 6 to 8 and then off again till just before Mrs Q gets home. Our boiler drives 13 radiators (though I've turned 4 of them down to 1 so they just tick over) plus all the hot water.
> Running it in short bursts to take the chill out is probably not all that efficient since the water in the system will need to get reheated from scratch every time, probably best to have it on solid for a couple of hours then leave it and rely on insulation (God I still feel smug about doing that)



Yours must be a big house if it has 13 radiators, I am in a fairly big bungalow and only 5 radiators, plus you are powering some big kit.

In an average sized place, I would be worried about £7 in a day/£210 in a month, before I have even got to the winter months!


----------



## bellaozzydog (Nov 3, 2022)

I’m double glazing my 9 foot high Victorian windows with the shrink film

It’s working well but I think I’ve blown my annual electricity bill on hair drying the film for 45 minutes per window


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yours must be a big house if it has 13 radiators, I am in a fairly big bungalow and only 5 radiators, plus you are powering some big kit.
> 
> In an average sized place, I would be worried about £7 in a day/£210 in a month, before I have even got to the winter months!


It was originally a four bedroom detached house built in 1990 which we bought in 2000, we added a single story extension on the back a few years later which tripled the size of kitchen into a single big room that doubles up as kitchen, dining room and family room plus a small utility room and a small study that was originally meant to be shared but eventually Mrs Q's ever expanding teacher's stuff ended up forcing me out. 
It had 9 radiators originally 2 in the lounge and 1 in every other room bar the hallway but when we added the extension we added 4 more, the hallway (which always used to feel chilly), an extra one in the expanded kitchen and 2 in the 2 small rooms at the end.  Despite adding 4 more radiators our gas consumption actually went down by 30% due to replacing the original non-condensing boiler and hot water tank with a combi condensing boiler and adding cavity wall insulation throughout.
We moved here for two reasons firstly to get the kids into the school we preferred and also the two girls didn't have to share a room. Then of course Youngest made her grand appearance so as part of the extension, the builder plastered up the door between the original dining room and the kitchen and the dining room became Son's bedroom. Four kids take up a LOT of room, the one thing I regret most is not having a second bathroom included but the cost of the extension just seemed to keep spiralling as it was. When all 4 were at home, competition for our one bathroom was fierce to say the least.
Now three of them are gone and the last survivor is at Uni, I've wondered if it might well be worthwhile selling up and finding somewhere cheaper especially when we retire but Mrs Q is very happy here so convincing her might be difficult.


----------



## rubbershoes (Nov 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> A lot of theirs will be gas, I am guessing you're just talking about electric?



Yep.  No gas here unless I've been having beans


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 3, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> Yep.  No gas here unless I've been having beans


Flog it back to the gas company.


----------



## sojourner (Nov 4, 2022)

My contract was up yesterday so checked this morning, dreading it, but the Energy Relief money covers the uplift - for now, anyway - and that's on the usual predicted usage too. Given I've been with Ovo for years, they have a good record of my usage. I'll still not be putting heating on unless I need to, but it's a relief to know we're not gonna be arsebones skint.

Also, they didn't fuck up the payment and give me too much after all. Message on the site says:

_From October 2022 to March 2023, you'll see the government's Energy Bills Support Scheme as a discount on your energy charges. We've put the money saved back into your bank account. We show this as a refund taken off your balance._

So I've increased the DD to their minimum payment of £128 from £70, and it more than covers it.

Now to face the fucking mortgage rate rise.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 4, 2022)

New fridge delivered and contents transferred.
It's taking 410 watts during the cooling down phase - whereas the old one burned 87 watts all day.
Amazingly quiet compared to fridges I have known.
Only happy with one kind of Aldi fizzy water bottle so I may have to decant.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 4, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> New fridge delivered and contents transferred.
> It's taking 410 watts during the cooling down phase - whereas the old one burned 87 watts all day.
> Amazingly quiet compared to fridges I have known.
> Only happy with one kind of Aldi fizzy water bottle so I may have to decant.



The first day I had my new fridge-freezer plugged in, I was confused that it hadn't given me the promised savings, and seemed to have used as much electric as the old one, that pissed me off and I was going to complain, glad I didn't before the penny dropped it would use a lot to cool & freeze for the first time. 

And mine is a lot quieter too, it's amazing how things have moved on. Ditto with the new boiler, I couldn't put the old one on the timer in the morning, because it would wake me up straightaway, this one is not going to be a problem.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Nov 4, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> New fridge delivered and contents transferred.
> It's taking 410 watts during the cooling down phase - whereas the old one burned 87 watts all day.
> Amazingly quiet compared to fridges I have known.
> Only happy with one kind of Aldi fizzy water bottle so I may have to decant.
> ...


Fill the empty space with empty water bottles, milk cartons, tupperware boxes and similar, applies to freezers too.


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## gentlegreen (Nov 4, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Fill the empty space with empty water bottles, milk cartons, tupperware boxes and similar, applies to freezers too.


Hopefully it won't be empty for long.
I'm hoping this will make supermarket visits even less frequent.


----------



## Chz (Nov 4, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Fill the empty space with empty water bottles, milk cartons, tupperware boxes and similar, applies to freezers too.


The maths I've seen around these claims show that it's not worth bothering with if it takes any effort whatsoever. The difference in an active fridge scenario (eg: it's the one in the kitchen and it gets opened all the time) is quite slight once you factor in that the things you're adding into the fridge need to be cooled. There's also only a difference for appliances that are regularly opened, so for most people's freezers it really won't make any difference at all (and even less so for a chest freezer in the garage or summat like that). Also, never fill _all_ the space in the fridge - the air does need to circulate.

TLDR; technically yes, in all practicality no. You might save upwards of £1 a year.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 4, 2022)

Also supposed to have space in the fridge for air to circulate - not really sure why but I suppose it equalizes the temperature.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Nov 4, 2022)

Chz said:


> The maths I've seen around these claims show that it's not worth bothering with if it takes any effort whatsoever. The difference in an active fridge scenario (eg: it's the one in the kitchen and it gets opened all the time) is quite slight once you factor in that the things you're adding into the fridge need to be cooled. There's also only a difference for appliances that are regularly opened, so for most people's freezers it really won't make any difference at all (and even less so for a chest freezer in the garage or summat like that). Also, never fill _all_ the space in the fridge - the air does need to circulate.
> 
> TLDR; technically yes, in all practicality no. You might save upwards of £1 a year.


First up, not everything going into the fridge needs to be cooled; except for shopping days, everything going (back) into the fridge is still cool. Our freezer is where we keep the ice-cubes and the bulk of the vegetables we eat so I reckon it is opened up to five times in an evening, and that opening sometimes involves extended rummaging so I'm sticking with my empty boxes thanks. Plus orphaned bits of tupperware are a thing of the past if they are hanging out in the freezer together.


----------



## Chz (Nov 4, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> First up, not everything going into the fridge needs to be cooled; except for shopping days, everything going (back) into the fridge is still cool. Our freezer is where we keep the ice-cubes and the bulk of the vegetables we eat so I reckon it is opened up to five times in an evening, and that opening sometimes involves extended rummaging so I'm sticking with my empty boxes thanks. Plus orphaned bits of tupperware are a thing of the past if they are hanging out in the freezer together.


Extra addition that if it's a modern freezer where absolutely everything is in a drawer, it also won't make much of a difference. But if it's a open-plan old style one and you open it a lot, I can see that being worthwhile to fill - added bonus that unlike with the fridge, the freezer doesn't really need air circulation so you can *ram* it in there. Mine's totally full, but that's because I'm a hoarder and not because I'm hoping to save 40p on the 'leccy.


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## kalmatthew (Nov 4, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Fill the empty space with empty water bottles, milk cartons, tupperware boxes and similar, applies to freezers too.


Given we might have power cuts if of said for freezers full water bottles would be better, yes it will take some time to freeze but also adds a chunk of thermal mass to keep it  cold longer.


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## pinkmonkey (Nov 4, 2022)

kalmatthew said:


> Given we might have power cuts if of said for freezers full water bottles would be better, yes it will take some time to freeze but also adds a chunk of thermal mass to keep it  cold longer.


I switch my 12v/marine fridge freezer off at night, in the winter, because we're off grid, we're only getting about 20 amp hours of solar now, because we're not far from the winter solstice,  so we have to generate the rest of our power, switching it off saves about 30 amp hours a day. I have a lot of cool box/freezer blocks in the freezer and I've never had any problems with defrosting. I think a power cut of a few hours is nothing to worry about.


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## two sheds (Nov 4, 2022)

Yes I've just had a 19 hour power cut and the freezer was still pretty chilly. I may well start putting it on a timer for the same reasons. Will have to check it carefully though when I try.


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## prunus (Nov 4, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes I've just had a 19 hour power cut and the freezer was still pretty chilly. I may well start putting it on a timer for the same reasons. Will have to check it carefully though when I try.



I was told a useful trick the other day re: freezers and power outages: put a coin on a frozen ice cube in an ice cube tray; if the power goes out for long enough for the contents to defrost but then comes back on and refreezes everything, the coin will have sunk so you know it’s happened and the apparently safely frozen food might not be.


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## elbows (Nov 4, 2022)

Some of those recent posts would be useful to stick on the thread about possible power cuts: UK gas/electricity supply shortages this winter


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## gentlegreen (Nov 4, 2022)

Too many threads


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 4, 2022)

We just had our chimney swept today. Told us the liner was gone, and that we shouldn't use it until it is replaced. Bollocks! Just had a log delivery only recently as well.


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## kenny g (Nov 5, 2022)

Still no central heating or in fact any other form of heating being used in Kenny G residence. I asked the Children and other half if they want to turn it on but had an adamant non in response. Using coats, jumpers, blankets and duvets to full effect. Have decided to wait until there is a danger of pipes freezing 🥶


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## Storm Fox (Nov 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes I've just had a 19 hour power cut and the freezer was still pretty chilly. I may well start putting it on a timer for the same reasons. Will have to check it carefully though when I try.


Last winter I accidentally unplugged the large chest freezer located in an unheated garage for a week and it was still below freezing -4 or -5 at the bottom. The garage temp was about 7C to 10C


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## Looby (Nov 5, 2022)

Just checked and our dual account is £382 in credit. 

Our monthly amount was set at £160
We’re paying £94 because of the govt credit thing and we’re using about £80 a month.
Not put the heating on yet so I guess we’ll leave it until we know how much using the heating will cost us.

Is this silly? Should we be asking for it back?


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## kenny g (Nov 5, 2022)

Looby said:


> Just checked and our dual account is £382 in credit.
> 
> Our monthly amount was set at £160
> We’re paying £94 because of the govt credit thing and we’re using about £80 a month.
> ...


It's going to be interesting if loads of people are in the same boat and ask for refund in April.


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## Looby (Nov 5, 2022)

Think we might leave it til January and then if it’s still high, claim it back and book a cheap holiday.


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## smmudge (Nov 5, 2022)

We've just moved to somewhere where the electric is all state owned... they say we can set up a standing order or just wait for our quarterly bill. No preferential rate for DD, no encouragement to keep your account in credit. Kind of a big house with old appliances though so still not looking forward to the first bill 😬 

On the plus side we didn't use up any of the £66 payment from the govt so that was a nice little leaving present in the credit from our UK supplier 👍


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## gentlegreen (Nov 6, 2022)

I only got the new fridge on Friday and I'm a bit random about when I read the meter, but I'm down from an average of 4.3 to just over 3kwh per day and I've used a little heating and lighting so it's looking good so far.
Unless I have a bath or use much heating, I should average about 3.5 over the whole month.
I'm being careful about opening and shutting the fridge and I may fit some clingfilm or something at the bottom.
On the lowest setting it's about 5 degrees on the top shelf and dipping to 2 at the bottom.
cupid_stunt


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## MrCurry (Nov 6, 2022)

It’s nothing I’ve ever done, but I would have thought that lining the sides and top of a fridge or freezer with this polystyrene sheeting would have to reduce the energy consumption a lot, especially in summer. Would be somewhat at the expense of the appearance though!


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## two sheds (Nov 6, 2022)

I did wonder about that, expanded polystyrene tends to crumble into little bits if you catch it though. plus fridge surfaces often curved?


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## MrCurry (Nov 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I did wonder about that, expanded polystyrene tends to crumble into little bits if you catch it though. plus fridge surfaces often curved?


I think you’d have to line it with 4mm fibreboard or similar, which would then allow for painting / wallpaper to give a nice appearance. Wouldn’t work on curved surfaces of course.


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## WouldBe (Nov 6, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> It’s nothing I’ve ever done, but I would have thought that lining the sides and top of a fridge or freezer with this polystyrene sheeting would have to reduce the energy consumption a lot, especially in summer. Would be somewhat at the expense of the appearance though!


Might work as long as you don't insulate over the cooling pipes.


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## MrCurry (Nov 6, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Might work as long as you don't insulate over the cooling pipes.


Yeah, sides and top only. I don’t think insulating the back, where the radiator is, would turn out too well!


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## WouldBe (Nov 6, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> Yeah, sides and top only. I don’t think insulating the back, where the radiator is, would turn out too well!


Misread it as insulating the inside of the fridge.  might have to insulate the door as well then.


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## two sheds (Nov 6, 2022)

just cement it in that'll take care of the curves

eta - ah yes I was assuming inside too.


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## gentlegreen (Nov 6, 2022)

I still like the idea of a chest or drawer fridge so the cold can't fall out ...
My camping fridge was shit because it was an evaporator fridge so it can run on 12v, 240v and gas ..
When I move, one of the key ideas is to have fresh greens available all year round so perhaps I will go back to not needing a fridge ...
Unless I become sociable and have to start actually "cooking" as opposed to "increasing the bioavailability of plant material" ...


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## Leafster (Nov 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> *I still like the idea of a chest or drawer fridge so the cold can't fall out ...*
> My camping fridge was shit because it was an evaporator fridge so it can run on 12v, 240v and gas ..
> When I move, one of the key ideas is to have fresh greens available all year round so perhaps I will go back to not needing a fridge ...
> Unless I become sociable and have to start actually "cooking" as opposed to "increasing the bioavailability of plant material" ...


You can get drawer fridges - usually on high-end fitted kitchens. 









						Save Space Under-Counter Refrigerator Drawers - Amberth
					

Today we will run through the under-counter refrigerator drawers that offer a clever way to discreetly store cold items. These drawers can be used as an addition to your main fridge to allow you to organise your food better or use less food storage space.




					www.amberth.co.uk


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## StoneRoad (Nov 9, 2022)

Another reason why I don't like smart meters









						Energy firms remotely swap homes to prepay meters
					

The regulator said some "vulnerable customers had been left without power for days or even weeks".



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




in that article, Shell says that 1/3 of their customers who were swopped actually requested the change ... which still means that 2/3 of the changes were imposed !

I wonder if OFGEM will actually do anything about the situation, other than writing strongly worded letters to the suppliers in question ?


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## CH1 (Nov 14, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Another reason why I don't like smart meters
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thus is worrying me. Any idea how old gas meters have to be before replacement is compulsory.
I started getting this shit from Ovo when I refused to go on DD.
I'm now on DD with Shell - but every time I get a monthly bill it seems to trigger a demand _I get a new gas meter._
Like they're not satisfied that my London weather ONLY causes monthly bills of c.£100 - the last 2 months at least.


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## AnnaKarpik (Nov 14, 2022)

To get in on the smart meter hate, I got one installed in March. The meter itself had no display, the inhouse plug in thing showed no data that I was interested in, ie kwh divided by day and night. Not a problem, I could access that data online. Except now I can't, I've been sold a pup and I'm fucking furious to the extent that my complaint letter resembles a short story.


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## WouldBe (Nov 14, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Thus is worrying me. Any idea how old gas meters have to be before replacement is compulsory.
> I started getting this shit from Ovo when I refused to go on DD.
> I'm now on DD with Shell - but every time I get a monthly bill it seems to trigger a demand _I get a new gas meter._
> Like they're not satisfied that my London weather ONLY causes monthly bills of c.£100 - the last 2 months at least.


Have they specified a smart meter?

Both gas and electric meters need changing periodically for safety reasons.


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## CH1 (Nov 14, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Have they specified a smart meter?
> 
> Both gas and electric meters need changing periodically for safety reasons.


Sometimes they say a smart meter - and sometimes NOT a smart meter.
Its always the gas meter - which was changed anyway around 1995.
I've lived here since 1986. The electricity meter has never been changed - and they don't seem kinterested in changing it.

My electricity consumption is pretty static, I have as Combi gas boiler. Which is why I suspect they don't agree with my gas consumption - which could also be due to being in an unusual house -mid terrace, double fronted with only 2 outside walls (and double glazing and very good roof insulation).


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## WouldBe (Nov 14, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Its always the gas meter - which was changed anyway around 1995.
> I've lived here since 1986. The electricity meter has never been changed - and they don't seem kinterested in changing it.


Iirc meters should be changed every 20 years so your gas meter is overdue as is the electric.


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## MickiQ (Nov 14, 2022)

I can't imagine anyone is still making the old style meters so at some point they will presumably run out of stock. I suspect smart meters will become compulsory before then.


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## MickiQ (Nov 14, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Another reason why I don't like smart meters
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The change will most likely have been imposed because the customers had debts unless the proper procedure wasn't followed (and there have been suggestions it might not have been for some) why would OFGEM object?


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## WouldBe (Nov 14, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I can't imagine anyone is still making the old style meters so at some point they will presumably run out of stock. I suspect smart meters will become compulsory before then.


It wouldn't matter if they put a new smart gas meter in as without a smart electric meter it can't talk to the power companies.


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## MickiQ (Nov 15, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> It wouldn't matter if they put a new smart gas meter in as without a smart electric meter it can't talk to the power companies.


. I would imagine they will automatically change both if one wants changing. I have smart meters the phone chip is in the electric one which makes sense since whilst everyone has an electric meter not everyone has a gas meter. GE was a client of Evil American Megacorp many years ago and I once visited their plant at Stone in Staffordshire where they used to make electric meters back in the 90's. Long closed now so I would imagine meters (smart and dumb) all come from China now.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 15, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> To get in on the smart meter hate, I got one installed in March. The meter itself had no display, the inhouse plug in thing showed no data that I was interested in, ie kwh divided by day and night. Not a problem, I could access that data online. Except now I can't, I've been sold a pup and I'm fucking furious to the extent that my complaint letter resembles a short story.



The person installing the smart meters should have ensured the monitor was displaying data before leaving, and if it is faulty replace it with a spare from the van, or arranged to have returned to replace it. 

If you have put in a complaint letter that would be considered as escalating your complaint and they then have 8 weeks to resolve the matter, after which you can put in a complaint to the energy ombudsman, and get them to resolve it and ensure a goodwill payment for your trouble - I found them excellent and the £150 goodwill payment was nice.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 15, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> The change will most likely have been imposed because the customers had debts unless the proper procedure wasn't followed (and there have been suggestions it might not have been for some) why would OFGEM object?



Indeed, and if they are forcing people to go onto pre-payment, they can do that with whatever type of meter you have, as the article points out -



> It predicts that 450,000 people could be forced onto a prepayment plan this winter and of those, it expects 180,000 to be made as automatic remote switches via a smart meter.



The issue seems to be concerning a tiny number of people being switched without being told in advance, which is a major cock-up, but these companies do cock-up at times, as I am fully aware, and that's what the energy ombudsman is there for.

Clearly it's a pain in the neck if they switch your smart meter to pre-payment without advising you in advance, but if they are going to cock-up like that, personally I would rather they did it remotely, instead of me coming home to find they have forced entry to install a pre-payment meter.


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## CH1 (Nov 15, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> The issue seems to be concerning a tiny number of people being switched without being told in advance, which is a major cock-up, but these companies do cock-up at times, as I am fully aware, and that's what the energy ombudsman is there for.
> 
> Clearly it's a pain in the neck if they switch your smart meter to pre-payment without advising you in advance, but if they are going to cock-up like that, personally I would rather they did it remotely, instead of me coming home to find they have forced entry to install a pre-payment meter.


It's not a cock up it;s an abuse.

BTW I have a friend who has a coin-slot gas meter which rakes OLD 50p pieces.
They modified it some years back - so he has to keep putting his one old 50p piece in - but can open the coin box to recycle each time.
They have not offered him a smart meter (and he is on British Gas).

I believe in my own case it;s because I have very poor credit rating due to someone ordering an iPhone from BT and connecting a BT landline account in my name in Camberwell, and running up a £1,600 bill. So I think my address is black-listed for credit and the new high tarriffs are making them anxious to put me on pre-payment by the back door.


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## sojourner (Nov 15, 2022)

Just an aside, but we've been using the 'Eco' wash setting on the washing machine, since the rates went up, believing the instruction leaflet that claimed this was the most efficient use of energy and water. BOLLOCKS it is.

I took readings and it cost 75p for it! It takes near 4 hours, but I believed the bastard leaflet, and understood that it was to do with less agitation and water.

Then I did a 30 min wash. 7p!!

So anyway, if you also use the 'eco' setting, I'd recommend taking a reading.


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## Ranbay (Nov 15, 2022)

My fixed rate ends on the 20th


FUCK ME


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## gentlegreen (Nov 15, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> My fixed rate ends on the 20th
> 
> 
> FUCK ME


what tariffs are you paying ?


----------



## klang (Nov 15, 2022)

sojourner said:


> I took readings and it cost 75p for it! It takes near 4 hours, but I believed the bastard leaflet, and understood that it was to do with less agitation and water.
> 
> Then I did a 30 min wash. 7p!!


very similar experience with mine. 'eco' close to 4 hours, 'rapid' 25 mins at 30 degrees. smelled and looked just fine.


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## sojourner (Nov 15, 2022)

klang said:


> very similar experience with mine. 'eco' close to 4 hours, 'rapid' 25 mins at 30 degrees. smelled and looked just fine.


We'd always used the 45 min wash up to that point. I only started doing it cos fucking so-called 'eco' bollocks. Bloody glad I took a reading. Wouldn't have known otherwise.

We'd been having to schedule the long washes too, instead of just bunging it in and hanging it up.


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## Chz (Nov 15, 2022)

The washer doesn't have an Eco setting (though it claims to be an Eco-washer somehow!), but the dishwasher does. It takes 3 hours, but very definitely uses less power and water. Something ridiculous like 800W and 7 litres.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 15, 2022)

CH1 said:


> It's not a cock up it;s an abuse.



Of course switching a customer to pre-payment without engaging with them first is a cock-up, they are breaking their own procedures set out inline with OFGEM's rules, and that can get expensive for them when people start complaining to the energy ombudsman, because not only to they have to pay for the ombudsman's service and compensation to the customers, but if it's an ongoing & big enough problem, they will also face a fine from OFGEM.  



> I believe in my own case it;s because I have very poor credit rating due to someone ordering an iPhone from BT and connecting a BT landline account in my name in Camberwell, and running up a £1,600 bill. So I think my address is black-listed for credit and the new high tarriffs are making them anxious to put me on pre-payment by the back door.



As long as you keep up with payments they can't force you onto pre-payment.


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## muscovyduck (Nov 15, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I believe in my own case it;s because I have very poor credit rating due to someone ordering an iPhone from BT and connecting a BT landline account in my name in Camberwell, and running up a £1,600 bill. So I think my address is black-listed for credit and the new high tarriffs are making them anxious to put me on pre-payment by the back door.


I know you've not come here looking for unsolicited advice but on the off chance you're interested, you could use the GDPR to confirm this and then take action to sort it out so you don't have to deal with it any more


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## Ranbay (Nov 15, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> what tariffs are you paying ?




Gas was 2.88p now 17.16p ------- 5.95 times more expensive 
Leccy was 17p now 57p -------- 3.34 times more expensive

was lucky to fix when i did, but it means I'm going from £80 a month to almost £300


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 15, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> Gas was 2.88p now 17.16p ------- 5.95 times more expensive
> Leccy was 17p now 57p -------- 3.34 times more expensive



There's something wrong there, the Energy Price Guarantee limits the cost to an average of 34.0p/kWh for electricity and 10.3p/kWh for gas, inclusive of VAT.

Compared to January, my rates per kWh have gone up by about 75% for electric and 165% for gas.


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## gentlegreen (Nov 15, 2022)

Yep - electricity *WAS *going to be about 51.7p but our money was used to make it 34 p


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## gentlegreen (Nov 15, 2022)

I wish I'd fixed *my *electricity at 17p - I'm wondering now why I never went for a plan ...


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## Ranbay (Nov 15, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> There's something wrong there, the Energy Price Guarantee limits the cost to an average of 34.0p/kWh for electricity and 10.3p/kWh for gas, inclusive of VAT.
> 
> Compared to January, my rates per kWh have gone up by about 75% for electric and 165% for gas.




Just took it off the sse webiste …. But that’s some good news


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 15, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> Just took it off the sse webiste …. But that’s some good news


Yes Bulb also still has old news on their site..


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## cesare (Nov 15, 2022)

British Gas is more expensive than Octopus for electricity and Gas - by kwh and also service charge.


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## Ranbay (Nov 15, 2022)

Standing charge is £250 a year before you take any energies


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 15, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> Just took it off the sse webiste …. But that’s some good news



SSE has been owned for at least a couple of years by OVO, I am surprised you haven't been moved over onto their system yet, I was last Dec.

The current OVO rates  for the south-east are (plus VAT) -

Electric - 33.63p per kWh / SC 40.64p per day

Gas - 9.80p per kWh / SC 27.12p per day

So, for both, the standing charge is just under £250 before VAT.


----------



## sojourner (Nov 15, 2022)

How come South East pay less than Merseyside? I don't understand why the area you live in can affect how much you pay per kwh.


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 15, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> SSE has been owned for at least a couple of years by OVO, I am surprised you haven't been moved over onto their system yet, I was last Dec.
> 
> The current OVO rates  for the south-east are (plus VAT) -
> 
> ...



We pay 50p a day for electric SC.

EON


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 15, 2022)

sojourner said:


> How come South East pay less than Merseyside? I don't understand why the area you live in can affect how much you pay per kwh.



Explained here -



> Why are energy prices different across the UK?
> 
> Standing charges are a daily fixed amount we pay suppliers for our gas and electric. It varies by region *due to the different costs to transport power to where we live*.
> 
> ...


----------



## cesare (Nov 15, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> SSE has been owned for at least a couple of years by OVO, I am surprised you haven't been moved over onto their system yet, I was last Dec.
> 
> The current OVO rates  for the south-east are (plus VAT) -
> 
> ...


British Gas more expensive for Electricity and Gas kwh, less expensive S/C electricity and more expensive S/C gas


----------



## CH1 (Nov 15, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> I know you've not come here looking for unsolicited advice but on the off chance you're interested, you could use the GDPR to confirm this and then take action to sort it out so you don't have to deal with it any more


Funnily enough I had a go at a one to one discussion when I was sorting out my ISA in branch.
If we gave you back your £1000 overdraft would you use it? the lady asks.
I had to admit I wouldn't - so there it rests.


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## sojourner (Nov 15, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Explained here -


Ta. Fkn Northerners get the shitty end of the stick again.


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## smmudge (Nov 15, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I believe in my own case it;s because I have very poor credit rating due to someone ordering an iPhone from BT and connecting a BT landline account in my name in Camberwell, and running up a £1,600 bill. So I think my address is black-listed for credit and the new high tarriffs are making them anxious to put me on pre-payment by the back door.



You can also request a statutory report from Experian, which you can request online. Then you'll know exactly what's on there and what companies are seeing. If something's on there that isn't yours, you can then raise a dispute, again you just do it online. 

If it's really bad it would be best to do the same with Equifax and TransUnion.


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## WouldBe (Nov 15, 2022)

smmudge said:


> If it's really bad it would be best to do the same with Equifax and TransUnion.


If you can get in touch with them. I tried complaining to Equifax and just got sent round and round in circles on their website.


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## smmudge (Nov 15, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> If you can get in touch with them. I tried complaining to Equifax and just got sent round and round in circles on their website.



Yeah I think it's easier to do through a ClearScore account rather than Equifax themselves. But Experian (or whoever you go to first) should take the dispute to the data supplier and get them to amend their records, so in theory once you've done it once it should change on all 3.


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## WouldBe (Nov 15, 2022)

smmudge said:


> Yeah I think it's easier to do through a ClearScore account rather than Equifax themselves. But Experian (or whoever you go to first) should take the dispute to the data supplier and get them to amend their records, so in theory once you've done it once it should change on all 3.


Clearscore directed me to Equifax. 

Data supplier is f'ing useless. Experian wrote the data off as data supplier wouldn't respond to them.


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## smmudge (Nov 15, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Clearscore directed me to Equifax.
> 
> Data supplier is f'ing useless. Experian wrote the data off as data supplier wouldn't respond to them.



Oh OK that sounds like a pain in the arse! Considering equifax say dispute through clearscore! I take it you've been directly to the data supplier? I would report them to ICO if they're reporting inaccurate data, and also look up their Ombudsman if they have one and complain to them, seeking considerable compensation lol.

After that I'm out of ideas sorry 😅


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## CH1 (Nov 15, 2022)

smmudge said:


> You can also request a statutory report from Experian, which you can request online. Then you'll know exactly what's on there and what companies are seeing. If something's on there that isn't yours, you can then raise a dispute, again you just do it online.
> 
> If it's really bad it would be best to do the same with Equifax and TransUnion.


Been through all that. Experian, Equifax, Clearscore. I can tell you the name of the guy who did it - and his address.
Ironically someone of the same name from the same estate was involved in a Drill killing about a year later.








						Rapper stabbed to death in south London in drill rap feud
					

Rapper 'Incognito' stabbed to death in Camberwell ++++ Attack took place yards from where fellow drill rapper was shot dead in May ++++ Two others aged 16 and 31 rushed to hospital after last night's attack ++++ Victim spoke out about London violence in recent interview




					www.standard.co.uk
				




Police not in the slightest interested in my own case of identity fraud at the time. Report it to Action Fraud they said.
Action Fraud appears to be equivalent to the Waste Basket on Windows if you ask me.

I have to say BT Mobile did deal with things quite efficiently - I got a direct line number to BT fraud department in Belfast.
But them cancelling my fraudulent debts has not given me back my financial standing.


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## WouldBe (Nov 15, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I have to say BT Mobile did deal with things quite efficiently - I got a direct line number to BT fraud department in Belfast.
> *But them cancelling my fraudulent debts has not given me back my financial standing.*


It should be BT that remove any bad markers on your credit file. Can you contact BT to get it removed?

Alternatively have you got anything in writing from BT that you can show to Experian etc to get them to remove any bad markers?


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## gentlegreen (Nov 16, 2022)

I'm all for low power targeted heat, but ....


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## CH1 (Nov 16, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> It should be BT that remove any bad markers on your credit file. Can you contact BT to get it removed?
> 
> Alternatively have you got anything in writing from BT that you can show to Experian etc to get them to remove any bad markers?


I expect I would have to re-join Experian etc to do this? Will I get a free trail, given that I had a free trial back in 2017.
It's a bit pointless really. I only use a Co-op credit card - and the Co-op reverted my credit limit from £200 up to £1,000 when I explained the circumstances (it had been £2,500). As explained up thread I don't actually use a bank overdraft - authorised or not - so the bank not interested in this issue. I expect not having more than a £200 overdraft might be a protection against push-fraud etc?
This is one of the read-outs. Note the date of birth (presumably skimmed from Facebook). Interested to know if this is the guy who was stabbed to death. Could be a sibbling. I doubt if I knocked on the door I would be invited in for tea!
Note this address is LINKED to me - I've never lived there, or known anyone who does.
I live in SW9 about 2 miles away.

Re being and existing member:


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## WouldBe (Nov 16, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I expect I would have to re-join Experian etc to do this? Will I get a free trail, given that I had a free trial back in 2017.
> It's a bit pointless really. I only use a Co-op credit card - and the Co-op reverted my credit limit from £200 up to £1,000 when I explained the circumstances (it had been £2,500). As explained up thread I don't actually use a bank overdraft - authorised or not - so the bank not interested in this issue. I expect not having more than a £200 overdraft might be a protection against push-fraud etc?
> This is one of the read-outs. Note the date of birth (presumably skimmed from Facebook). Interested to know if this is the guy who was stabbed to death. Could be a sibbling. I doubt if I knocked on the door I would be invited in for tea!
> Note this address is LINKED to me - I've never lived there, or known anyone who does.
> ...


You can complain to Experian with just a basic account. No need for the paid for service.

Iirc any data on your credit file falls off after 6 years so it shouldn't be a problem for you for much longer.


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## smmudge (Nov 16, 2022)

Yeah that's true. As it's linked address it's up to Experian to unlink it. But it's old and fairly small comms default, and about to drop off. Won't be the end of you EXCEPT British Gas will refuse to put in a credit meter while it's there as they're arseholes who want your credit file cleaner than a mortgage company would look for when people request to switch. Other energy companies are more reasonable.

Phew managed to get that back on topic haha!


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## MrCurry (Nov 19, 2022)

The new LED Christmas tree lights we have this year are pulling just 4W. That’s compared to 20.1W for the filament bulb set they have replaced. Won’t make much difference to our bill as they’re only on a few hours a night and only for the next month or so, but I guess every little helps!


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## gentlegreen (Nov 19, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> The new LED Christmas tree lights we have this year are pulling just 4W. That’s compared to 20.1W for the filament bulb set they have replaced. Won’t make much difference to our bill as they’re only on a few hours a night and only for the next month or so, but I guess every little helps!


LEDs are remarkable technology.,
I wonder if the Blackpool illuminations down the road will happen as usual - they have solar, but that doesn't help at night.
I have a tiny panel somewhere ..I suppose I could charge up some salvaged vape batteries and put on an alternative show....


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 19, 2022)

We're with Octopus Energy and they've just started a scheme whereby those with smart meters are told the day before to use as little electricity between certain times as possible. They measure how much less you use than normal and you earn points as a result. And we all know what points mean. Points mean prizes! We were asked to do it the other day, between 5 and 6 p.m. So we turned most things off and did a crossword by candlelight. Just got our results through this morning. We reduced our usage by 94% and earned £2.22. Will probably do this again.


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## alex_ (Nov 19, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> We're with Octopus Energy and they've just started a scheme whereby those with smart meters are told the day before to use as little electricity between certain times as possible. They measure how much less you use than normal and you earn points as a result. And we all know what points mean. Points mean prizes! We were asked to do it the other day, between 5 and 6 p.m. So we turned most things off and did a crossword by candlelight. Just got our results through this morning. We reduced our usage by 94% and earned £2.22. Will probably do this again.



This is what smart metering was designed for, the cost of electricity between about 2300 and 0500 is effectively zero and conversely at peak time very costly.

If you can shift usage, you don’t need to build so many power stations.

This is why smart metering is a good thing.


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## gentlegreen (Nov 19, 2022)

alex_ said:


> This is what smart metering was designed for, the cost of electricity between about 2300 and 0500 is effectively zero and conversely at peak time very costly.
> 
> If you can shift usage, you don’t need to build so many power stations.
> 
> This is why smart metering is a good thing.


I might go for one if it meant they dropped the standing charge - though there's no rewards for me at my level of usage.


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## existentialist (Nov 19, 2022)

I do think that the standing charges are iniquitous. It's almost the definition of "regressive taxation".


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## gentlegreen (Nov 19, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> We were asked to do it the other day, between 5 and 6 p.m. So we turned most things off and did a crossword by candlelight. Just got our results through this morning. We reduced our usage by 94% and earned £2.22. Will probably do this again.


How much would you otherwise have used ?
Looking at that I suppose I might voluntarily delay cooking my tea until 6pm for the common good - 1500 watt hob for less than half an hour - under 0.5 kwh ....
Otherwise I'm running a 170 watt PC and a 5 watt lamp and 80 watts for my feet ..


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## existentialist (Nov 19, 2022)

alex_ said:


> This is what smart metering was designed for, the cost of electricity between about 2300 and 0500 is effectively zero and conversely at peak time very costly.
> 
> If you can shift usage, you don’t need to build so many power stations.
> 
> This is why smart metering is a good thing.


There's a way they could have done this without smart metering, and all that goes with it. I think I've probably mumbled about it before, but this...






						Dynamic Demand
					

Dynamic Demand is a not-for-profit organisation that promotes new energy technologies to tackle climate change.



					www.dynamicdemand.co.uk
				








						GB Fuel type power generation production
					

GridWatch | Live statistic of UK National Electricity grid by type of generation | Solar PV power Generation | Coal Stations output in Gigawatts | Wind Output Gigawatts | Nuclear energy output |Biomass power generation Output




					gridwatch.co.uk
				




Dynamic demand control. Some very cheap electronics in appliances like fridges and water heaters can monitor the grid frequency and only switch on when it's above a particular value. Grid frequency changes - very slightly - according to the balance between load and supply, and by turning off appliances that don't need to be on all the time, controlled within the appliance itself, you can keep a better balance, allowing the grid to supply power for things that have to be on (lights, computers, etc) and only using the non-continuous loads when the grid has capacity.

You could then use smart metering to charge less for electricity drawn at low-demand times if you want to build in a financial incentive.


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## alex_ (Nov 19, 2022)

existentialist said:


> There's a way they could have done this without smart metering, and all that goes with it. I think I've probably mumbled about it before, but this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn’t this come after smart metering ?


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## alex_ (Nov 19, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I do think that the standing charges are iniquitous. It's almost the definition of "regressive taxation".



Your connection and meter does cost something to maintain.

You will pay for it either on a separate charge or hidden in the usage fees.


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## gentlegreen (Nov 19, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I do think that the standing charges are iniquitous. It's almost the definition of "regressive taxation".


At the moment I'm paying 76p a day SC (and I don't even use any gas.)
Electricity £1.13
VAT 4p


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## gentlegreen (Nov 19, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Your connection and meter does cost something to maintain.
> 
> You will pay for it either on a separate charge or hidden in the usage fees.


Someone elsewhere said on a prepayment key they were being charged 38p instead of 32p per unit -that would work for me ...


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 19, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> How much would you otherwise have used ?
> Looking at that I suppose I might voluntarily delay cooking my tea until 6pm for the common good - 1500 watt hob for less than half an hour - under 0.5 kwh ....
> Otherwise I'm running a 170 watt PC and a 5 watt lamp and 80 watts for my feet ..


They calculate what they think is your average usage. Although we usually cook round about the same time our solar panels and battery can make a huge impact on what we take from the grid. Next time might be different times and/or different lengths of time. They say they'll let you know the day before usually, so planning ahead might be a neat trick.


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## Cerv (Nov 19, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Your connection and meter does cost something to maintain.
> 
> You will pay for it either on a separate charge or hidden in the usage fees.


although a non-trivial chunk of your standing charge now is paying for the admin of transferring customers from defunct suppliers to the surviving companies. that's added on and spread to the whole country.
a totally unnecessary cost for us to be paying, which is down to a failure of government. 
unlike infrastructure costs which do have to be paid somehow (you can argue whether it should be standing charge, usage fee, general taxation, whatever).


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## existentialist (Nov 19, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Doesn’t this come after smart metering ?


No, it's completely independent of it. The beauty of it is that it requires no infrastructure whatsoever: you have a little circuit inside your appliance that monitors grid frequency, and at some suitable setpoint (say, 49.95Hz) turns off the appliance, just like the thermostat does. If you wanted to be cleverer, and for a few more pence, you'd have the device monitor the temperature of the fridge/water heater/whatever, and adjust the setpoint according to how far the actual temperature was from the setpoint temperature - proportional control, of a kind.

The only reason for adjusting cost would be to incentivise people to fit appliances that had this capability. But, seriously, you'd probably be talking about a unit cost of 50p or so in bulk - you could arguably just make it a legal requirement that certain appliances had them fitted. And, 99% of the time, the user wouldn't even notice.


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## existentialist (Nov 19, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Your connection and meter does cost something to maintain.
> 
> You will pay for it either on a separate charge or hidden in the usage fees.


I get that. And I appreciate that the utility companies need to cover those costs. It just seems regressive to me to set a comparatively high service charge that penalises low users far more (in proportion to the overall bill) than if it were rolled into the per-unit cost. Or at least if more of it were. AIUI, standing charges have gone up significantly alongside unit prices, and I cannot see a justification for that.


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## Chz (Nov 19, 2022)

existentialist said:


> No, it's completely independent of it. The beauty of it is that it requires no infrastructure whatsoever: you have a little circuit inside your appliance that monitors grid frequency, and at some suitable setpoint (say, 49.95Hz) turns off the appliance, just like the thermostat does. If you wanted to be cleverer, and for a few more pence, you'd have the device monitor the temperature of the fridge/water heater/whatever, and adjust the setpoint according to how far the actual temperature was from the setpoint temperature - proportional control, of a kind.
> 
> The only reason for adjusting cost would be to incentivise people to fit appliances that had this capability. But, seriously, you'd probably be talking about a unit cost of 50p or so in bulk - you could arguably just make it a legal requirement that certain appliances had them fitted. And, 99% of the time, the user wouldn't even notice.


Sooo... Replace all your appliances, or replace your meter? This may have been a good alternative long term, but you know the requirement was Something Must Be Done! That was only ever going to end one way.


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## two sheds (Nov 19, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> We're with Octopus Energy and they've just started a scheme whereby those with smart meters are told the day before to use as little electricity between certain times as possible. They measure how much less you use than normal and you earn points as a result. And we all know what points mean. Points mean prizes! We were asked to do it the other day, between 5 and 6 p.m. So we turned most things off and did a crossword by candlelight. Just got our results through this morning. We reduced our usage by 94% and earned £2.22. Will probably do this again.



It's good but effectively penalizes people who've already reduced consumption as much as they can. Good for people who have been profligate though


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 19, 2022)

two sheds said:


> It's good but effectively penalizes people who've already reduced consumption as much as they can. Good for people who have been profligate though


True enough, though I'm not sure how they calculate typical usage. We got our smart meter back in April, so the only definite readings they have for November are based on last year's monthly reading taken by my good self. I take your point, though.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 19, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I get that. And I appreciate that the utility companies need to cover those costs. It just seems regressive to me to set a comparatively high service charge that penalises low users far more (in proportion to the overall bill) than if it were rolled into the per-unit cost. Or at least if more of it were. AIUI, standing charges have gone up significantly alongside unit prices, and I cannot see a justification for that.



I agree, although the gas standing charge here has only gone from (ex-VAT) 26.04p in early 2020 to 27.12p now, whereas electric has increased from 23.33p to a massive 40.64p, but that's due to the costs caused by the failed suppliers, which is only levied on the electric side of things, and should go back down again in time.


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## elbows (Nov 19, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> We're with Octopus Energy and they've just started a scheme whereby those with smart meters are told the day before to use as little electricity between certain times as possible. They measure how much less you use than normal and you earn points as a result. And we all know what points mean. Points mean prizes! We were asked to do it the other day, between 5 and 6 p.m. So we turned most things off and did a crossword by candlelight. Just got our results through this morning. We reduced our usage by 94% and earned £2.22. Will probably do this again.



I see Octopus have a page where they are showing off positive tweets from people who took part in that test session:









						The best of Saving Sessions on Twitter
					

Octopus Energy Saving Sessions are here to encourage customers to shift their power usage away from peak times and will be able to earn OctoPoints and rewards for doing so, throughout winter.




					octopus.energy


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 19, 2022)

elbows said:


> I see Octopus have a page where they are showing off positive tweets from people who took part in that test session:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was quite fun. A bit different. Whether it would still be quite so exciting the 15th time, I suspect not.


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## planetgeli (Nov 19, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> We reduced our usage by 94% and earned £2.22. Will probably do this again.



So you earned £2.22 an hour for sitting in the dark and cold? I'm sure there are migrant workers in Qatar who would take that but as a 'perk' for living in a rich country it's got a touch of the Victorian about it for me. Is this really how we should look after our poor? "Hey pensioner, dare to switch that electric blanket off? Cash prizes for the living!"


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 19, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> So you earned £2.22 an hour for sitting in the dark and cold? I'm sure there are migrant workers in Qatar who would take that but as a 'perk' for living in a rich country it's got a touch of the Victorian about it for me. Is this really how we should look after our poor? "Hey pensioner, dare to switch that electric blanket off? Cash prizes for the living!"


It's not really about prizes. That just adds a slight incentive. It's about occasionally decreasing the overall demand on the grid. It's not compulsory. Because you know about it in advance you can prepare for a short period of time without much power. Or you can just forget all about it.


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## alex_ (Nov 19, 2022)

two sheds said:


> It's good but effectively penalizes people who've already reduced consumption as much as they can. Good for people who have been profligate though



“Only heat your swimming pool 22 hours per day”


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## alex_ (Nov 19, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> So you earned £2.22 an hour for sitting in the dark and cold? I'm sure there are migrant workers in Qatar who would take that but as a 'perk' for living in a rich country it's got a touch of the Victorian about it for me. Is this really how we should look after our poor? "Hey pensioner, dare to switch that electric blanket off? Cash prizes for the living!"



If everyone in the country turned the kettle and oven on at 1800 this evening, we would all be sitting in the dark and people would die ( car crashes with no streetlights, people who have home medical services which need power etc )

This is paying people to do the opposite.

If we want to be a country where everyone can turn the kettle on at 1800, power is going to cost a lot more as we will need about 3x more powerstations


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 19, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> So you earned £2.22 an hour for sitting in the dark and cold? I'm sure there are migrant workers in Qatar who would take that but as a 'perk' for living in a rich country it's got a touch of the Victorian about it for me. Is this really how we should look after our poor? "Hey pensioner, dare to switch that electric blanket off? Cash prizes for the living!"



It's an attempt to reduce electric use at peak times to prevent enforced widespread power cuts, have you missed the fact that there may not be enough gas to keep the power stations generating enough electric at peak times, if all the wrong circumstances combine at certain points this winter? 

I am not poor and I would rather reduce my use if needed than have the likes of my mother suffering power cuts.


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## MickiQ (Nov 19, 2022)

Standing charges is just blatant thieving, I'm pretty certain that the cables and pipes to my house are the same ones that were there when it was built 32 years ago. It's true that the house has been rewired and the fuseboxes in the house and the garage have been replaced in that time but that was paid for on my dime and I got no refund from any funds mantaining infrastructure. Yes infrastructure needs to be maintained but it can be paid for out of utility profits.
As I have mentioned before supermarkets charge me only for the groceries I buy, there is no charge for someone cleaning the floors and bogs or stacking the shelves or the capital cost of the building. They cover it out of their profits.
Standing charges are a personal bugbear of mine, they are basically stealing money off me (and I can afford it) and stealing even more money off people who can't.


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## Storm Fox (Nov 19, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Standing charges is just blatant thieving, I'm pretty certain that the cables and pipes to my house are the same ones that were there when it was built 32 years ago. It's true that the house has been rewired and the fuseboxes in the house and the garage have been replaced in that time but that was paid for on my dime and I got no refund from any funds mantaining infrastructure. Yes infrastructure needs to be maintained but it can be paid for out of utility profits.
> As I have mentioned before supermarkets charge me only for the groceries I buy, there is no charge for someone cleaning the floors and bogs or stacking the shelves or the capital cost of the building. They cover it out of their profits.
> Standing charges are a personal bugbear of mine, they are basically stealing money off me (and I can afford it) and stealing even more money off people who can't.


Back in the days when services were publically owned the Standing Charge made sense, it was used for infrastructure. But these current companies are just admin companies and shit ones at that. So Standing Charges are just a tax on poorer citizens.


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## planetgeli (Nov 19, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I am not poor and I would rather reduce my use if needed than have the likes of my mother suffering power cuts.



Of course. Then go ahead and do this, you don't need any pittance of a financial incentive to do so. Just do it anyway. But this 'points make prizes' offers is, I suggest, aimed at people who need to make every penny count. There will be pensioners doing it to save a penny while offices and education facilities have gone off for the night leaving all the lights and heating on.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 19, 2022)

I've just been informed that, as one of the top savers, I've also earned another £1.25. The Milky Bars are on me!


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## platinumsage (Nov 19, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Standing charges is just blatant thieving, I'm pretty certain that the cables and pipes to my house are the same ones that were there when it was built 32 years ago. It's true that the house has been rewired and the fuseboxes in the house and the garage have been replaced in that time but that was paid for on my dime and I got no refund from any funds mantaining infrastructure. Yes infrastructure needs to be maintained but it can be paid for out of utility profits.
> As I have mentioned before supermarkets charge me only for the groceries I buy, there is no charge for someone cleaning the floors and bogs or stacking the shelves or the capital cost of the building. They cover it out of their profits.
> Standing charges are a personal bugbear of mine, they are basically stealing money off me (and I can afford it) and stealing even more money off people who can't.



I bet you’d love to pay for your internet by the megabyte, perhaps you should campaign for an end to inclusive phone minutes too. Maybe go the whole hog and lobby to charge people for actually calling the fire brigade rather than slap that unfair levy on everyone’s council tax bill?

There’s plenty of documentation out there on the transmission grid and distribution network operator costs and how these relate to the standing charges in different regions.


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## BigMoaner (Nov 19, 2022)

literally going around the house and switchng EVERYTHING off, all the plugs before bed instead of just standby. gonna see if it makes a difference. wifi, everything. thank god its a mild winter - went to the park with kids an hour ago adn it felt like a summer evening. mild as fuck!


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## Elpenor (Nov 19, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> Back in the days when services were publically owned the Standing Charge made sense, it was used for infrastructure. But these current companies are just admin companies and shit ones at that. So Standing Charges are just a tax on poorer citizens.


I was thinking earlier today that in a fully nationalised system the same organisation would produce the electricity, supply it to my door via the National Grid, install and maintain it and bill me. 

But that’s clearly not going to happen as how would the shareholders make money out of me.


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## Elpenor (Nov 19, 2022)

One advantage would be that I would know who to call and wouldn’t need to find new trades whenever I move area


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## Artaxerxes (Nov 19, 2022)

Really starting to notice the prices on the supermarket, it's fucking grim


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## kenny g (Nov 20, 2022)

Checked my bill and we have used about half the power March to Nov 2022 compared to same time period last year. Not taking much notice of energy use whilst cooking but lack of CH use apart from a weekly one hour test run and getting to bed by 9 pm on week nights must be having an impact.


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## MickiQ (Nov 20, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I bet you’d love to pay for your internet by the megabyte, perhaps you should campaign for an end to inclusive phone minutes too. Maybe go the whole hog and lobby to charge people for actually calling the fire brigade rather than slap that unfair levy on everyone’s council tax bill?
> 
> There’s plenty of documentation out there on the transmission grid and distribution network operator costs and how these relate to the standing charges in different regions.


The FB is a public service that is publicly funded by taxation in order to provide a service to the public what has it got to do with British Gas which is a commercial corporation that (no matter how people may kid themselves) exists to generate profit for its shareholders so any comparison  between them is just whataboutery.
Internet and mobile phone charges are an interesting discussion but we will return to that later.
Firstly let us take a look at standing charges using the one example where I have all the data ie myself. I am a customer of British Gas whose standing charges (daily) are 44.75p for Electric and 27.22p for Gas so they  respectively  charge me £13.43 a month and £8.12 a month standing charge. I pay £115 a month for electric minus the standing charge means I buy (at 27.63p kwh) 367kwh of electric pm. For gas I pay £95 minus the standing charge gives me (at 7.28p kwh) 1193 kwh of gas.
Averaging the standing charge across the amount of actual energy brings the actual cost to 31.29p kwh electric and 7.96p for Gas.
That's me so let's take a look at someone who uses half the energy I do, they would pay £50.70 for their actual electric and  £43.39 for their actual gas BUT they're paying the same standing charge so their final bill will come to £64.13 electric and £51.51 gas.  They're using 50% of the energy I do but paying 55% of the cost at an averaged cost of 34.95p and 8.64p. If they were buying their energy at the same actual rate as me they would pay  £57.26 and £47.44.
And this gets worse the less energy someone uses since the standing charge gets averaged over fewer units and the more expensive per unit it gets. The more energy someone uses then the cheaper it gets per unit.
Standing charges are fundamentally unfair, OK I know this is not a fashionable idea these days but it doesn't strike me as great business sense either. Simply lumping the cost of maintaining the infrastructure in with the general price and
selecting a break even price point at which units are charged (Hell use me  I'm probably about the average anyway) is a far better idea.
Saying you can find documentation as to how the standing charges is spent is meaningless so what? it doesn't justify it. I'm sure my daughter's driving instructor would give me a breakdown of how much is spent on fuel, insurance etc if I asked him.
However the entire billing process consists of "Dad Transfer me £31 please". Supermarkets don't break down the bill and charge separately for infrastructure, Rail companies don't, Airlines don't so why do utility companies?
Which brings us to internet and mobile phone companies. Vodaphone charge me £9 a month for unlimited texts, unlimited calls and 1Gb of data,  Virgin Media charge me £44 per month for all I can use internet (and believe me I can burn through terabytes) so I am effectively in both cases paying only for infrastructure but getting services for free (and yet both companies seem to be making a profit). I think this is a great business model.
Electric and Gas Standing Charges buy NOTHING. you have people sat there paying £20+ a month to sit in the fucking dark and cold afraid to turn the light or heating on because it will mean they can't eat if they do. If we have to have standing charges why isn't there a certain amount of energy included with folks being charged extra only if they go over it?


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## two sheds (Nov 20, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I bet you’d love to pay for your internet by the megabyte, perhaps you should campaign for an end to inclusive phone minutes too. Maybe go the whole hog and lobby to charge people for actually calling the fire brigade rather than slap that unfair levy on everyone’s council tax bill?
> 
> There’s plenty of documentation out there on the transmission grid and distribution network operator costs and how these relate to the standing charges in different regions.


were you in favour of the poll tax?


----------



## Storm Fox (Nov 20, 2022)

The Standing Charge by the Intermediary Admin Companies is complete bullshit. 

From Who pays for the grid? - Regen


> *Paying for the grid – network charging for a flexible future*​To put this into some sort of context, the national grid electricity transmission network costs account for *around 4 per cent of a customer’s bill*. The Transmission Network Use of Service (TNUoS) charge is expected to cost £2.7 billion per annum in 2016/17, rising to just over £3.7 billion by 2020/21[1]. Added to that is another billion[2] for balancing services (BSUoS) which have to be purchased to keep the grid voltage and frequency in line and to cover the cost of electricity transmission losses, which are running at just under 2 per cent across the GB network.
> 
> The distribution network currently costs circa £6 billion[3] per year to operate and maintain and accounts for around 16 per cent of a customer’s bill. The main Distribution Use of Service (DUoS) charge is levied based on demand usage, using a banded tariff with a significantly higher tariff for evening peak usage during the “Red Band” and winter evening “Super Red Band” periods.
> 
> The approach for UK network charging has been developed over a number of decades and, as you might expect, there are now a large number of different mechanisms and an alphabet soup of acronyms.


So unless you are paying for than £40 a day in electricity you are being ripped off and it's a regressive tax.


----------



## not a trot (Nov 21, 2022)

Thank fuck we haven't hit winter yet
 And we're a pensioner household.


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## kittyP (Nov 22, 2022)

Sorry I am spamming a thread without contributing, this stuff makes me incredibly anxious and while I want to read this thread I don't as I can't iyswim?
Even the title makes me shake. 

But I'm in a binde and would appreciate any help or even sympathy 









						Advice re landlord/[property manager and heating.
					

The property manager keeps changing the thermostat so that the heating in the house is on 19 - 21 degrees 24/7 :eek: :mad: He is insisting that this is for the tenants comfort and to stop mould and damp.  This is an old draughty damp Victorian house with a long history of leaks, damp and things...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## cesare (Nov 22, 2022)

kittyP said:


> Sorry I am spamming a thread without contributing, this stuff makes me incredibly anxious and while I want to read this thread I don't as I can't iyswim?
> Even the title makes me shake.
> 
> But I'm in a binde and would appreciate any help or even sympathy
> ...


I did a reply on your thread but (((((((kitty)))))) X


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 22, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> My monthly billing period ended yesterday, 9 days at the old rates & 21 days at the new rates, the total combined electric & gas with VAT comes to just under £52, a saving of about £23 on my average for the July & August bills, before my energy saving measures started to come into being during Sept.
> 
> With a credit of £67, £1 from me plus the £66 grant, my credit balance has increased from £570 to almost £585.
> 
> I am well chuffed with that.



The latest billing period ended yesterday, electric use down from 85.36kWh to just 60.15kWh, so 25.21kWh less, despite there being an extra day and saving £6.55 inc. VAT at the new higher rates,  that's mainly down to the new fridge-freezer being in use for the whole period, and the fact I turned it down from 3 to 2 as everything was way too cold in the fridge. So I am using just under 2kWh per day, when I had been using 5kWh per day back in the summer.

I started using the CH in the last half of this period, but only in the mornings so far, and set to a comfortable 17c rather than the 18c I used to aim at, so total gas use inc. VAT has gone up from £2.46 to £15.97, which isn't bad considering I was spending around £12pm just on hot water in the summer, with the old boiler.

So, the total bill is £59,25, with a £67 credit (£66 being the grant), my credit balance goes up by another £7.75, which would have taken it to over £592 if I hadn't come to the conclusion there's no way I am going to be needing that to get me to the end of March, so I took a £400 refund. 

For the next 4 months I'll not even be paying my usual £1pm, just the monthly grant of £67 x 4, so £268 plus £192 in credit, leaves me with £115pm to cover the bills, not 100% convinced I'll get away with that little as winter proper hits, but it would be nice if I do. 

Once the grant payments end in March, I'll adjust my DD to the correct amount, which I guess should be £90pm at current rates, somewhat better than the £191 OVO suggested at peak madness, although with the price guarantee going up by 20% from 1st April, it's be about £110, not bad considering it was around £67 back at the end of 2021, before all this madness kicked-off.


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## gentlegreen (Nov 22, 2022)

Are you at home during the day ?
My PC uses 2kwh by itself - but it's taking the chill off the room - perhaps I should move it back to under the desk where its 120 watts can do more good - .


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## two sheds (Nov 22, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Are you at home during the day ?
> My PC uses 2kwh by itself - but it's taking the chill off the room - perhaps I should move it back to under the desk where its 120 watts can do more good - .


are you using it as a server, or any other reason it's on all day?


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## gentlegreen (Nov 22, 2022)

two sheds said:


> are you using it as a server, or any other reason it's on all day?


I have no life 
If I were away from the keyboard for any amount of time it would drop down to 70 watts.
I suppose I could change the power supply settings but it's 11 years old and needs all the help it can get.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 22, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Are you at home during the day ?
> My PC uses 2kwh by itself - but it's taking the chill off the room - perhaps I should move it back to under the desk where its 120 watts can do more good - .



Mostly yes, but my laptop only uses about 50 watts an hour when in use.


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## two sheds (Nov 22, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I have no life
> If I were away from the keyboard for any amount of time it would drop down to 70 watts.
> I suppose I could change the power supply settings but it's 11 years old and needs all the help it can get.


as I said I use the Power Off button on the keyboard to drop consumption down to zero when I'm away from it. I've also started listening to old radio 4 plays on my phone with a small amp which also gives me the benefit of actually doing stuff around the house so I'm not tied to the puter.

Different topic but this has reminded me to get a new hot water bottle - both of mine must be a good 15-20 years old 









						‘This is serious’: Expert issues warning over hot water bottles as winter bites
					

Cold snap has sent temperatures plummetting across the UK, with a yellow warning issued by the Met Office




					www.independent.co.uk


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## StoneRoad (Nov 22, 2022)

Third report from OFGEM - largely being critical of how badly most suppliers are treating vulnerable customers.
No surprise there, but I feel OFGEM needs to do something to control the suppliers' behaviour.









						Cost of living: Energy suppliers failing struggling customers - Ofgem
					

Failings included setting debt repayments so high that customers could not top-up their pre-payment meters.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




So far, the weather has been helpful towards reducing excessive use ...

Hopefully, EDF will be getting the Nuclear Stations up and running some time in the near future.

{at least we're not having our generating & distribution system physically attacked}


----------



## elbows (Nov 22, 2022)

StoneRoad said:


> Hopefully, EDF will be getting the Nuclear Stations up and running some time in the near future.



We have only got a couple offline at the moment, and their capacity is too small to make much of a difference to the price. Most of what we've lost has been due to permanent end of life closures. And the new nuclear wont be ready for years.

Its France where a huge quantity of nuclear is down. And that does have some knock on consequences for other countries. Including the UK where we are often exporting 3GW of electricity to France instead of getting imports from them.

I suppose smaller fluctuations in available supply vs demand do affect short term prices at moments in time, as does the general perception of supplies being tight. But articles about the situation dont usually imply that there are any short to medium term fixes, they either look to the longer term or point out that the price of gas is the main driver of the high electricity prices. In terms of shorter term fluctuations in price, its certainly true that the seasons, their weather and what that does to energy demand has some impact. But with the way things are with gas supplies to europe, its likely that when more favourable seasons come around market attention will already be turning towards the expectation of the next winter being even more challenging than the currently approaching one.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 24, 2022)

OFGEM has just announced the price cap from January for the 'average household' at an eye watering £4,279.

The only thing we can be grateful for during Truss's short term as PM, is the introduction of the government's price guarantee of £2,500, although that goes up to £3000 from April, for another year, which is another 20% increase.

However, there's been no mention of the £400 grant for every household next winter, so if that doesn't happen, in real terms it's an increase of about 43%. (i.e. £2,500 - £400 = £2,100 + 43% = £3003)


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## gentlegreen (Nov 24, 2022)

So 38.6p or 46p per kwh ?


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 24, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> So 38.6p or 46p per kwh ?



We will have to wait for the details of the new government's price guarantee from April, to know how it's split between electric & gas, it will probably be a larger increase for gas than electric.

My electric is now 75% more than in Jan., whereas gas is 165% more.


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## gentlegreen (Nov 24, 2022)

I'd originally pencilled-in 80p for next April for electricity !


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 24, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I'd originally pencilled-in 80p for next April for electricity !



Probably because the price cap forecast for April was a fair bit over £6,000, but that has dropped to £3,702, with the price guarantee taking it down to £3,000.



And, here's their forecasts broken down, but note they are based on OFGEM's price cap, the price guarantee will bring them somewhat. 











						Predicted fall in the April 2023 Price Cap but prices remain significantly above the EPG
					

Our latest Default Tariff Cap (price cap) forecasts for April – June 2023 (Q223) have dropped by over £600 since the last widely released figures on 17 October.




					www.cornwall-insight.com


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## gentlegreen (Nov 24, 2022)

That's still going to hurt though 
I suppose for normal people who heat their homes and bathe it will mean roughly the same as they've been paying through the winter ... until next winter ...


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## StoneRoad (Nov 24, 2022)

Quite cold & damp outside this morning, so shower was short & down a notch ...
Unfortunately, had to use the washer and dryer a couple of days ago on a quite humid day which hit the leccy bill way more than I wanted.
So I'm tying to avoid the temptation of the fan-heater.


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## gentlegreen (Nov 24, 2022)

These are my estimates for my level of consumption ...


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## MickiQ (Nov 24, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> OFGEM has just announced the price cap from January for the 'average household' at an eye watering £4,279.
> 
> The only thing we can be grateful for during Truss's short term as PM, is the introduction of the government's price guarantee of £2,500, although that goes up to £3000 from April, for another year, which is another 20% increase.
> 
> However, there's been no mention of the £400 grant for every household next winter, so if that doesn't happen, in real terms it's an increase of about 43%. (i.e. £2,500 - £400 = £2,100 + 43% = £3003)


I think the £400 bung is going to be a one off, there may very well be 'targeted' help for the most needy but I doubt there will be another general handout


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## kabbes (Nov 24, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I’ve just realised that my energy company is exempt from the price cap (one of the companies exempt because they genuinely buy directly from renewable providers rather than greenwashing with carbon credits). I’m not sure that the additional cost is particularly bearable — it’s now creeping up towards 50p per kWh.
> 
> I know the rest will all be priced the same at the moment but does anybody have any recommendations for electricity companies?


So: two months after switching from Green Energy to Octopus, I can confirm that it seems to be about £100 a month cheaper for us. Not having the price cap is a brave business model for Good Energy.


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## sojourner (Nov 24, 2022)

I am so fucking sick and tired already of looking at my smart meter and being caught up in anxiety, just for doing everyday fucking stuff like putting a bastard wash on, or having the heating on FOR HALF AN HOUR.


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## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2022)

sainsburys cashign in on the world cup. the cunts.


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## NoXion (Nov 25, 2022)

sojourner said:


> I am so fucking sick and tired already of looking at my smart meter and being caught up in anxiety, just for doing everyday fucking stuff like putting a bastard wash on, or having the heating on FOR HALF AN HOUR.



That's another one of the reasons I refuse to have a smart meter fitted, or do any measuring of my electricity consumption beyond taking note of what I'm paying each month. I thoroughly despise the way that the responsibility for this energy affordability crisis is being passed on to individuals and families. I'll be damned if I let the greedy cunts get me into the habit of worrying about that shit on their behalf.


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## elbows (Nov 25, 2022)

With or without the current crisis, the prices and the greed, the chances are we'll all end up thinking about our energy consumption as a matter of routine in the decades ahead. The climate change and energy transition agenda doesnt get to where it needs to be without action on the demand side, and the psychology of consumption is a part of that, the opposite of pipedreams about abundance and unmetered use. 

The key is not to deny this, its to find ways to get there that are fair, give people a decent safety net, give us the best chance of having sufficient supplies, and that people can come to terms with without a poor effect on anxiety and other mental and physical health issues.


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## Ranbay (Nov 25, 2022)

So we have around 28m homes in the Uk, average standing charge is £250 a year for gas and leccy …… 

So how much do they make before even 1kwh is sold ….. 👀


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## gentlegreen (Nov 25, 2022)

I just had this crazy mailshot from Bristol water ...






						WaterShare+
					

WaterShare+ means everyone will benefit to the value of £13. This can be taken either as money off your bill or as shares in our parent company, Pennon Group Plc.




					www.bristolwater.co.uk


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## Chz (Nov 25, 2022)

That's actually less than I thought it would work out to and seems quite reasonable *if* the money is actually ringfenced for deploying and maintaining the gas and electric network.


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## Ranbay (Nov 25, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> So we have around 28m homes in the Uk, average standing charge is £250 a year for gas and leccy ……
> 
> So how much do they make before even 1kwh is sold ….. 👀
> View attachment 352838




Oh and that's just on domestic.....


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 25, 2022)

NoXion said:


> That's another one of the reasons I refuse to have a smart meter fitted, or do any measuring of my electricity consumption beyond taking note of what I'm paying each month. I thoroughly despise the way that the responsibility for this energy affordability crisis is being passed on to individuals and families. I'll be damned if I let the greedy cunts get me into the habit of worrying about that shit on their behalf.



Without this price hike focusing my mind, and the smart meter too, I would never have thought I could more than half my electric use by replacing a 20 year fridge freezer, which was wasting over 2kHw per day, with a modern one, that will pay for itself in about 8-9 months, and carry on giving savings for many years more, plus a air fryer replacing use of the electric oven most of the time. Ditto with reducing gas use without suffering from cold.

I always thought I was being fairly environmentally friendly, I discovered I wasn't, the fact that reducing energy use is also saving me a bloody fortune is an added bonus TBH.

* I don't need to regularly check my smart meters display now, I've done all I can.


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## Storm Fox (Nov 25, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I just had this crazy mailshot from Bristol water ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Take the 1 share. You can then go to the AGM and ask awkward questions.


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## sojourner (Nov 25, 2022)

NoXion said:


> That's another one of the reasons I refuse to have a smart meter fitted, or do any measuring of my electricity consumption beyond taking note of what I'm paying each month. I thoroughly despise the way that the responsibility for this energy affordability crisis is being passed on to individuals and families. I'll be damned if I let the greedy cunts get me into the habit of worrying about that shit on their behalf.


They are useful though for measuring how much each activity costs. I'd rather have one than not have one.


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## gentlegreen (Nov 25, 2022)

sojourner said:


> They are useful though for measuring how much each activity costs. I'd rather have one than not have one.


Does it deliver usage on  timeline ?


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## extra dry (Nov 27, 2022)

I heard there have been powercuts in some parts of the country?


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## WouldBe (Nov 27, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I would never have thought I could more than half my electric use by replacing a 20 year fridge freezer, which was wasting over 2kHw per day, with a modern one, that will pay for itself in about 8-9 months,


I'm getting a new fridge tomorrow as my 26 year old one is on the blink (the thermostat is failing and it's cooling things to much).

Will be interesting to see what difference it makes.


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## elbows (Nov 27, 2022)

extra dry said:


> I heard there have been powercuts in some parts of the country?



Dunno, what have you heard?

There are usually some power cuts somewhere on any particular day, the key is quite how large an area they cover. I havent heard anything about anything larger and newsworthy but sometimes it takes a while for such news to emerge I suppose.

In terms of power cuts as a result of larger supply-demand imbalances, I am covering stuff about those on the other thread, eg a period forecast for tomorrow evening where things will be tighter than normal ( UK gas/electricity supply shortages this winter ). Demand is lower at weekends so unless we have very prolonged issues with stuff like overall gas supplies this winter, weekends arent strong candidates for this sort of problem.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 27, 2022)

There was a couple fairly large power cuts a week ago, covering an area of over 30 miles square, East Norfolk had a HV overhead wire fault & parts of East Suffolk suffered an underground cable fault, on the same day, they took out both Radio Caroline's 648 AM transmitter at Orford Ness in Suffolk, and DAB radio multiplex in Norwich that carries their output too.

These things happen.


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## elbows (Nov 27, 2022)

Words on the direct debit front, with more acknowledgement of how hard people are trying to reduce use of electricity than we've tended to see in past rhetoric:



> *The government has warned energy firms not to hike customers' direct debit payments when households are making "huge efforts" to cut usage.*
> 
> The business secretary has written to suppliers asking them to ensure bills show what homes are actually using, as opposed to overcharging on estimates.
> 
> ...











						Energy firms warned over hiking direct debits
					

The government says companies must match bills with customers who are cutting energy use.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## story (Nov 27, 2022)

edited cos of the sad faces.
thanks but it’s just the way it is.


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## Ranbay (Nov 27, 2022)

One day with sick baby so had to keep heating on for a few hours 😭

How the fuck is this sustainable??!??!


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## sojourner (Nov 27, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> One day with sick baby so had to keep heating on for a few hours 😭
> 
> How the fuck is this sustainable??!??!View attachment 353194


Fuuuck.


----------



## story (Nov 27, 2022)

.


----------



## story (Nov 27, 2022)

.


----------



## story (Nov 27, 2022)

.


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## two sheds (Nov 27, 2022)

Three points you win


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 28, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> One day with sick baby so had to keep heating on for a few hours 😭
> 
> How the fuck is this sustainable??!??!View attachment 353194



115kWh in a day.   

I am guessing you must live in an old uninsulated & draughty place.


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## gentlegreen (Nov 28, 2022)

That's 5KW for 24 hours or 10kw for 12.
I confess I did used to rely on a 6kw rated gas fire in a dreadful draughty downstairs room and sometimes fired it up on max and nodded off ...


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## two sheds (Nov 28, 2022)

Not being on gas myself I first thought that was electricity consumption


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## WouldBe (Nov 28, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Not being on gas myself I first thought that was electricity consumption


Looks like power consumption for both gas and electric to me.

Works out at 14p per kWh so must be mostly gas.


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## Ranbay (Nov 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> 115kWh in a day.
> 
> I am guessing you must live in an old uninsulated & draughty place.




yeah boiler is ages old, but it's a rental and semi detached...


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## two sheds (Nov 28, 2022)

You couldn't - tenderly of course - put baby in cupboard with a hot water bottle?


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 28, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> yeah boiler is ages old, but it's a rental and semi detached...



I am lucky my landlord replaced the boiler this year, despite the 30+ year old one was still working, but looking back to Jan, when it was bloody cold compared to now, and heating was on all day, I still averaged under 55kWh per day on gas & about 5kWh on electric, you must have a very leaky house.   

Is the loft even insulated?


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## Ranbay (Nov 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I am lucky my landlord replaced the boiler this year, despite the 30+ year old one was still working, but looking back to Jan, when it was bloody cold compared to now, and heating was on all day, I still averaged under 55kWh per day on gas & about 5kWh on electric, you must have a very leaky house.
> 
> Is the loft even insulated?



yes, I will add I Handt been home for a few days before so was heating it from stone cold.


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## gentlegreen (Nov 28, 2022)

The answer surely has to be to screen off small areas and heat those - at that level of usage it would be cheaper to use an electric fire.
When I was a baby in the winter of 62/63, my parents had an uninsulated house and one open coal fire (and ice on the inside of the windows)
We're past the era of heating uninsulated buildings for so many reasons.


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## MickiQ (Nov 28, 2022)

British Gas have sent me 2 emails (one per fuel) to tell me that I have been moved to their new system and I have new account numbers  They assure me that all will be fine. I will give it a week or so then double check that they haven't take this opportunity to sneakily put my DD's up.


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## Ranbay (Nov 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Looks like power consumption for both gas and electric to me.
> 
> Works out at 14p per kWh so must be mostly gas.



can check when home but leccy was prolly £3/£4 ish rest gas


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## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

sojourner said:


> I am so fucking sick and tired already of looking at my smart meter and being caught up in anxiety, just for doing everyday fucking stuff like putting a bastard wash on, or having the heating on FOR HALF AN HOUR.


Have had a firm word with myself over this, and refuse to tie myself up in knots any further.

I am already doing my best with everything; just checked my Ovo account and my November bill is today at £62.70 in credit, having started the month with £89.13 in credit, so that's okay.

I’ve been reading instruction booklets while the fella's been away on tour, and have now turned down the fridge by 2.5, freezer by 1, boiler flow temp from 73º to 70º, the temp on the 45 min wash to 20º instead of the 40º that it was, and cleaned the filter on the dehumidifier so it works more efficiently. It’s only 7p an hour to run, and totally worth it. Decided to put it in the kitchen when I cook, rather than the top of the stairs, so it sucks in the condensation at source instead of waiting for it to drift upstairs. Dunno why I didn’t do that before tbh. Duh. It’s now in use for every laundry load too.

I’ve never known so much about my electrical appliances as I do right now haha, and am pleased that I now have a much deeper knowledge of it all. It's comforting and satisfying. Rock n fucking rolllll baby 😀


----------



## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

The dehumidifier also makes your rooms warmer, another added benefit


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 28, 2022)

sojourner, I got my boiler flow temp down from 70º to just 55º, and that works fine with 6 radiators, although I may need to increase it as the proper winter weather hits us, so it could be worth lowering it a bit more.


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## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> sojourner, I got my boiler flow temp down from 70º to just 55º, and that works fine with 6 radiators, although I may need to increase it as the proper winter weather hits us, so it could be worth lowering it a bit more.


Cheers. I'm not ENTIRELY sure that I did it successfully tbh - it deffo looked like I had, and am gonna get my plumber to check it when he services the boiler, but yeh - going on last night's heating (still really hot), it could easily go down a lot more.


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## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

I've also had the gas fire on low to measure how much, and that's a lot cheaper when it's on low compared to the heating. Plan is, continue with the half hour of heating at tea time to warm the house through, then if really cold, put the gas fire on low for an hour.

Currently still toasty in furry clothes, blankie, and if really cold, I get in the 4 season sleeping bag with a hot water bottle. The hottie is now a staple!


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 28, 2022)

sojourner said:


> I've also had the gas fire on low to measure how much, and that's a lot cheaper when it's on low compared to the heating. Plan is, continue with the half hour of heating at tea time to warm the house through, then if really cold, put the gas fire on low for an hour.
> 
> Currently still toasty in furry clothes, blankie, and if really cold, I get in the 4 season sleeping bag with a hot water bottle. The hottie is now a staple!



Remember the CH will use a lot of gas to warm the system up from cold, IIRC the last time I checked mine used about 83p to heat up the bungalow by 1c, and about 31p for the next 1c, as my place holds the heat well, I am thinking I may heat it a bit more on colder mornings, so it's warm enough not to use again in the evenings.

Of course, that depends how well it holds the heat when it gets a lot colder outside.


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## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Remember the CH will use a lot of gas to warm the system up from cold, IIRC the last time I checked mine used about 83p to heat up the bungalow by 1c, and about 31p for the next 1c, as my place holds the heat well, I am thinking I may heat it a bit more on colder mornings, so it's warm enough not to use again in the evenings.
> 
> Of course, that depends how well it holds the heat when it gets a lot colder outside.


Yeh I know, but it still costs a fucking bomb to run, so any cutting down is welcome.  We have cavity wall insulation, fairly new double-glazing, and are end terrace, so get heat from next door (a bit).


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## WouldBe (Nov 28, 2022)

sojourner said:


> the temp on the 45 min wash to 20º instead of the 40º that it was,


Used to do mine on a 45 minute wash and it used nearly twice as much as the 3 hour cycle.


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## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Used to do mine on a 45 minute wash and it used nearly twice as much as the 3 hour cycle.


I tested mine recently. The so-called 'eco' wash cost 75p- nearly 4 hours long and supposed to be the best in terms of energy usage and water consumption. The 45 min wash was 35p. The 30 min wash was under 10p but you can only do a half load and the spin speed is a pathetic 800, meaning laundry will take much longer to dry.

I deffo noticed the difference in turning it down 20.


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## WouldBe (Nov 28, 2022)

sojourner said:


> I tested mine recently. The so-called 'eco' wash cost 75p- nearly 4 hours long and supposed to be the best in terms of energy usage and water consumption. The 45 min wash was 35p. *The 30 min wash was under 10p but you can only do a half load and the spin speed is a pathetic 800, meaning laundry will take much longer to dry.*
> 
> I deffo noticed the difference in turning it down 20.


Could you put it back on for a another spin cycle at higher speed?


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## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Could you put it back on for a another spin cycle at higher speed?


It only does a half load. No good to me.


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## WouldBe (Nov 28, 2022)

sojourner said:


> It only does a half load. No good to me.


2 30 min washes would only cost 20p instead of the 35p for the 45 min full wash.


----------



## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> 2 30 min washes would only cost 20p instead of the 35p for the 45 min full wash.


Did you not read the bit about the laundry taking longer to dry too?

So I should do 2 separate washes, with 2 separate spins? Nah.


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 28, 2022)

sojourner said:


> Did you not read the bit about the laundry taking longer to dry too?
> 
> So I should do 2 separate washes, with 2 separate spins? Nah.


Yes hence suggesting an extra spin cycle.


----------



## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Yes hence suggesting an extra spin cycle.


For the sake of possibly saving 15p, it's not worth it in terms of my time tbh.

Also, it won't be 15p now, due to turning the temp right down.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 28, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Remember the CH will use a lot of gas to warm the system up from cold, IIRC the last time I checked mine used about 83p to heat up the bungalow by 1c, and about 31p for the next 1c, as my place holds the heat well, I am thinking I may heat it a bit more on colder mornings, so it's warm enough not to use again in the evenings.
> 
> Of course, that depends how well it holds the heat when it gets a lot colder outside.


I am truly awed that you have that amount of detail at your fingertips. Mrs Q reckons I am a bit obsessive but I am just not in your league


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 28, 2022)

sojourner said:


> For the sake of possibly saving 15p, it's not worth it in terms of my time tbh.
> 
> Also, it won't be 15p now, due to turning the temp right down.


Fair enough. Still might be of use for someone else who needs to save that bit extra.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 28, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I am truly awed that you have that amount of detail at your fingertips. Mrs Q reckons I am a bit obsessive but I am just not in your league



I blame High Voltage, he was proper obsessive first over his electric use, and it seems to have rubbed off on me. 

I've done every thing I can to reduce the electric use, so I've given up on checking that too often, and moved onto gas use.

Oct 21-Mar 22 I used £290 in gas, that would be £775 at the current rates, so clearly it's worth looking at, my aim to cut gas use by 50% taking it down to a max. of £387.50 and less than the £400 government grant for this winter's bills. The new boiler will save 35% and I hope my measures will save at least 15%, in my dreams the cost will come in under the £290.  

I've set-up a simple spread-sheet, thanks to the mild Oct. and not needing heating, last Oct. I used 699.12kWh costing £71.94 at current rates, this year 35.2kHw costing just £2.57, so smashed my max. target of £35, and delivered a saving of £69.37 on what it would have been if I had used the same as last year. 

The target for Nov. is £60 max., looks like it'll be about £32, saving £86 or £158 for the 2-months, which is a good start.


----------



## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Fair enough. Still might be of use for someone else who needs to save that bit extra.


True true. We only do 2 loads a week now, so the savings would be tiny and not worth the extra fucking about and time.


----------



## cesare (Nov 28, 2022)

Is anyone else starting to wear things more than once before washing them (smelling armholes and arse cracks first) plus not changing the bed as often?


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 28, 2022)

*whistling smiley


----------



## moochedit (Nov 28, 2022)

cesare said:


> Is anyone else starting to wear things more than once before washing them (smelling armholes and arse cracks first) plus not changing the bed as often?


No not with clothes although i've always not changed the bed as often as i should


----------



## kabbes (Nov 28, 2022)

cesare said:


> Is anyone else starting to wear things more than once before washing them (smelling armholes and arse cracks first) plus not changing the bed as often?


Did anyone else _always _wear things more than once before washing them…?


----------



## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

cesare said:


> Is anyone else starting to wear things more than once before washing them (smelling armholes and arse cracks first) plus not changing the bed as often?


Only all my life


----------



## colacubes (Nov 28, 2022)

cesare said:


> Is anyone else starting to wear things more than once before washing them (smelling armholes and arse cracks first) plus not changing the bed as often?


Doesn't everyone do this  Knickers, socks, tights get changed daily but everything else gets a sniff


----------



## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

moochedit said:


> i've always not changed the bed as often as i should


I really like the lived in smell of our bed. It's like a little welcoming nest.


----------



## sojourner (Nov 28, 2022)

colacubes said:


> Doesn't everyone do this  Knickers, socks, tights get changed daily but everything else gets a sniff


If you leave clothes on their hangers for a few days, most aromas just dissipate. I have work kecks that I only wash max twice a year. 

Also, Febreze


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 28, 2022)

I hear that a shocking percentage of clothes in the west are worn only once ...


----------



## brogdale (Nov 28, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I hear that a shocking percentage of clothes in the west are worn only once ...


Bristol, eh?


----------



## Ranbay (Nov 28, 2022)

cesare said:


> Is anyone else starting to wear things more than once before washing them (smelling armholes and arse cracks first) plus not changing the bed as often?



Not sure i could wash my bedding less often


----------



## cesare (Nov 28, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> Not sure i could wash my bedding less often


We've all been there to be fair X


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> Not sure i could wash my bedding less often


last night i returned home to find a fucking manky mattress had been propped against the garden wall. on the street side. then this morning the fucking thing was gone but when i came home tonight the damn thing was back.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Nov 28, 2022)

It's that time of the year:









						Abandoned Mattress Calendars
					

Walthamstow (unofficial) Tourist Board




					walthamstowtourism.wordpress.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2022)

UrbaneFox said:


> It's that time of the year:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I lived in walthamstow I'd expect this sort of shit


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 28, 2022)

UrbaneFox said:


> It's that time of the year:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A4 posh paper, guaranteed soiled.


----------



## Elpenor (Nov 28, 2022)

cesare said:


> not changing the bed as often?


One thing I started doing during the pandemic when I was unemployed and depressed was changing my sheets every week. A really cheap way to feel good about yourself is fresh bed linen. It’s the one good habit I’ve formed from covid and I don’t want to lose it!


----------



## weltweit (Nov 28, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> One thing I started doing during the pandemic when I was unemployed and depressed was changing my sheets every week. A really cheap way to feel good about yourself is fresh bed linen. It’s the one good habit I’ve formed from covid and I don’t want to lose it!


Filled momentarily with that resolve I bought duvet covers and sheets and returned home full of determination. However sloth got the better of me and the new bedclothes still languish in their wrappers :/  

However, I know that you are right!


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 28, 2022)

The one thing I did do this year was improve my 50-odd year old mattress.
My neighbour's yoga mat wasn't quite enough, but putting that on top of  a £12.99 modular floor mat made all the difference.
It would now not be entirely crazy to invest in a cheap single electric blanket should one come along - though in the first instance I may yet try using an old blanket with my dimmer in place of the controllers that never lasted more than a season...


----------



## two sheds (Nov 28, 2022)

I did see something from Which suggesting that people don't buy cheap electric blankets for reasons of personal safety


just sayin


----------



## weltweit (Nov 28, 2022)

electric blaanket hmmm .. mine was a gift a few Christmases ago, and much appreciated every winter since.


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## gentlegreen (Nov 28, 2022)

I kill mine very quickly.
With the first two it was the under-engineered controllers - the more recent one had a minimalist controller - just a switch and diodes - though its lack of a timer was annoying - but I damaged the sense wire on my wonky mattress ...

The greenhouse tube heater works reasonably well but it tends to disappear down the side of the bed.


----------



## weltweit (Nov 28, 2022)

I broke my hot water bottle, my electric blanket has lasted way longer than my hot water bottle. The surround to the threaded plug started to go around with the plug and worried that it might leak boiling water on my precious skin I retired it.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Nov 29, 2022)

I have an electric pad which I start off at torso height while I brush my teeth then move down to roast my toes. Three temperature settings, automatic switch off if you fall asleep, no risk of scalding and it's at least ten or twelve years old. Just saying...


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## gentlegreen (Nov 29, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> I have an electric pad which I start off at torso height while I brush my teeth then move down to roast my toes. Three temperature settings, automatic switch off if you fall asleep, no risk of scalding and it's at least ten or twelve years old. Just saying...


Do you have a link ?


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 29, 2022)

Bulb have allowed me to go down to £33 a month, so once the £66 a month discounts end I will be up to over £400 or  a little over 4 months' usage at the new, higher tariffs.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Nov 29, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Do you have a link ?


This is the more modern version Dreamland Revive me Heatpad Standard Size

Mine is smaller than that and the cover is plastic so I have to wear socks but on the plus side, I don't have to wash it.


----------



## sojourner (Nov 29, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> sojourner, I got my boiler flow temp down from 70º to just 55º, and that works fine with 6 radiators, although I may need to increase it as the proper winter weather hits us, so it could be worth lowering it a bit more.


I checked and I HAD done it successfully, so I brought it down again to 65º this morning


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 30, 2022)

British Gas have given me my second bribe of Sunak Money. Since they have moved my account to a new system and changed my account number, they have sent me a final statement for the old account number.
It has a big blue banner on the front page that says "Good News You Don't Have to Pay Anything!"
Lying cunts, why are you taking £200 out of my bank account every month then?


----------



## Ranbay (Nov 30, 2022)

Important debate here 



			https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/drugs-and-alcohol-to-keep-warm.380134/


----------



## Leafster (Nov 30, 2022)

I've just had an email from Bulb saying that, *based on my recent usage*, they are lowering my monthly payment.  

I just hope my resolve holds out and I don't end up 'just turning the heating up for a little while'


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 30, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I've just had an email from Bulb saying that, *based on my recent usage*, they are lowering my monthly payment.
> 
> I just hope my resolve holds out and I don't end up 'just turning the heating up for a little while'


Be strong bruv be strong


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 30, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I've just had an email from Bulb saying that, *based on my recent usage*, they are lowering my monthly payment.
> 
> I just hope my resolve holds out and I don't end up 'just turning the heating up for a little while'


I'm feeling pretty confident in my energy usage - so far no more than 1kwh a day - just heating my bed and my feet when out of it is working fine most of the time.
And a quick blast of a fan heater goes a long way and I could have an hour a day for 1kwh / 32p but don't need it.
When I move I am definitely going to come up with a super-insulated room for winter - even if I'm way from other houses and had access to cheap firewood, I would want to minimise my burning of it...


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## MickiQ (Nov 30, 2022)

According to my smart meter my gas consumption was ticking along steadily at 39p per hour but shot up to 51p when I ran a bowl of hot water to wash up, I have the flow temp set to 55C a bit below default. 
It will be interesting to see how much a shower costs, Mrs Q is not a reliable lab partner but when 'The Girl Who Does Not Fully Grasp The Concept of The Off Switch' comes home from Uni I will take some measurements.
Probably get me a funny look from her Mum though.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 30, 2022)

I was going to have a bath, but the moment has passed now ...
In the end I boiled a kettle to wash my smalls ...
Maybe if the weather warms up again...
It would be precipitated if I had an appointment somewhere ...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 30, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> According to my smart meter my gas consumption was ticking along steadily at 39p per hour but shot up to 51p when I ran a bowl of hot water to wash up, I have the flow temp set to 55C a bit below default.
> It will be interesting to see how much a shower costs, Mrs Q is not a reliable lab partner but when 'The Girl Who Does Not Fully Grasp The Concept of The Off Switch' comes home from Uni I will take some measurements.
> Probably get me a funny look from her Mum though.



My boiler flow temp is also set to 55c for the CH, but the hot water is set lower at 50c, IIRC a shower costs me about 12p, and 10p for running a bowl of hot water to wash up, but if I do both at the same time, i.e. leave washing-up to soak whilst I take a quick shower and get back to it, together they cost just just 16p.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 30, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> My boiler flow temp is also set to 55c for the CH, but the hot water is set lower at 50c, IIRC a shower costs me about 12p, and 10p for running a bowl of hot water to wash up, but if I do both at the same time, i.e. leave washing-up to soak whilst I take a quick shower and get back to it, together they cost just just 16p.


Never thought about lowering the hot water temp so just checked and it was at 57, I have lowered it to 55C, normally use the shower on 40C(ish) so it depends on whether the taps will be hot enough I will try them over a couple of days and see if I notice a difference (eg Mrs Q complaining the water is cold) if no I will turn it a bit lower. I am following the trail you have blazed.


----------



## Storm Fox (Nov 30, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> My boiler flow temp is also set to 55c for the CH, but the hot water is set lower at 50c, IIRC a shower costs me about 12p, and 10p for running a bowl of hot water to wash up, but if I do both at the same time, i.e. leave washing-up to soak whilst I take a quick shower and get back to it, together they cost just just 16p.


With the hot water under 60C be careful of legionella especially if the hot water isn't used that often.









						How Does Temperature Affect The Growth of Legionella?
					

The impact of temperature on Legionella growth | Up to 85% of warmer water systems may contain Legionella | Learn how to manage water temperatures to minimise the risk of Legionella | Legionella Testing| Find out today




					blog.hydrosense-legionella.com


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 30, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> With the hot water under 60C be careful of legionella especially is the hot water isn't used that often.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



50c is safe enough, which is why despite the fact that seems too hot, I've not lowered it further.

IIRC a higher temp is needed if you have a hot water tank, i.e. a 'hot water system', rather than a combi boiler supplying hot water directly to taps/showers.


----------



## Chz (Nov 30, 2022)

Was going to say that. It doesn't really apply to combi systems. I have mine at 48. I still have the CH at 64 though, so I'll look at lowering it tomorrow.


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## Elpenor (Nov 30, 2022)

Chz said:


> Was going to say that. It doesn't really apply to combi systems. I have mine at 48. I still have the CH at 64 though, so I'll look at lowering it tomorrow.


That’s useful to know. First time with a combi boiler for me. I can’t recall ever getting involved with the boiler in any rented houses.


----------



## zora (Nov 30, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I've just had an email from Bulb saying that, *based on my recent usage*, they are lowering my monthly payment.
> 
> I just hope my resolve holds out and I don't end up 'just turning the heating up for a little while'



My energy supplier Octopus now has a forecast that apparently takes into account usage for the property in previous years (including where applicable previous tenants) and weather forecast for the foreseeable plus another couple of parameters, so if yours is similar I would have thought that your lower payment predictions would include a bit more heating for these next few coldest months of the year.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 1, 2022)

I can’t match @gentlegreen’s meagre usage, but pretty pleased to get down to 307kWh for Nov. That’s versus 518kWh for same month last year, and includes electric heating (ground source heatpump) & hot water of a fair sized house in a cold climate.

The reduction from last year is mostly because we are running the heating much lower (16-17C downstairs and 13-14C upstairs) and also because last Nov was colder than this year.  The graphs are from a spreadsheet I’ve been running for years now, keeping an eye on our consumption and challenging myself to improve on the year before. The cumulative consumption and price graphs show sum of previous 12 months, so the recent price rises are only just beginning to make the price graph rise.  That will get much worse as more months at the new 3x higher prices work their way into the graph over the next year


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 1, 2022)

The mild weather of Oct meant I didn't use any heating, just hot water, and as much of Nov was reasonably mild compared to last year, the heating was used less than expected.

This compares my gas use last winter & what it would have cost this year, to what I've actually used this year.



My target is to use 50% less gas, 35% from the new boiler & 15% from my measures, as you can see for Oct/Nov it would have cost about £190, so my 'target' was a max. of £95, but I actually only used £36 worth of gas, and rather than saving £95, I've saved £153.73, and almost 1500kWh.  

ETA - I certainly don't expect anything like those savings during Dec-Feb.


----------



## rubbershoes (Dec 1, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Don’t chase them Check the energy back-billing rules they can’t bill you back past 12 months.



Thanks for the advice. They still haven't changed it.

I've been with them since October last year so am now over the 12 months for the bill for then. Long may it continue.

My billed energy for November 22 is 65kwh


----------



## Leafster (Dec 1, 2022)

zora said:


> My energy supplier Octopus now has a forecast that apparently takes into account usage for the property in previous years (including where applicable previous tenants) and weather forecast for the foreseeable plus another couple of parameters, so if yours is similar I would have thought that your lower payment predictions would include a bit more heating for these next few coldest months of the year.


Yeah, it's a combination of past and predicted usage for Bulb too. But I think what's happened here is that my recent usage has been below their predictions so I was building up more credit than anticipated. However, the lower usage has been down to me not having the heating on so much or at such a high temperature combined with my attempts to use less electricity too. So long as I can remain restrained in my consumption then the lower monthly payments should be accurate. If I get a bit profligate I may find the monthly payments won't be enough.


----------



## magneze (Dec 1, 2022)

Now that we're getting into colder months it's interesting to look at usage vs cost.

Compared to last November we've used 45% less electricity and 35% less gas. However, the cost of doing this is 20% *more*.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 1, 2022)

magneze said:


> Now that we're getting into colder months it's interesting to look at usage vs cost.
> 
> Compared to last November we've used 45% less electricity and 35% less gas. However, the cost of doing this is 20% *more*.


I'm using roughly a quarter as much electricity but paying half what I was
Based on my current usage, my bill for last November should have been under £20 instead of £92 !
Shame on me, quite frankly.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 1, 2022)

This is a fun game…(not really). I’ve used 40.7% less electric than last year and paid 50% more 😭

Edited to add: if we had used the same 518kWh as last year, we would have paid 130% more. Not 130% of what we paid last year, but 130% more… so turning the heating down to 16C has been pretty essential really.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 1, 2022)

I checked the gas usage on the smart meter this morning. It was running at 57p per hour rather than 39p this morning. This makes sense when you think about it the house had cooled to 13C by 6am and the radiators would be releasing heat faster and returning colder water to the boiler to heat up again so the burner would be running for a greater percentage of the time. This doesn't look great going into winter when it gets even colder


----------



## Leafster (Dec 1, 2022)

The background temperature in my place is dropping too. This is the outdoor temperature compared to two sample rooms (Max & Min).



The minimum indoor temperature so far has only just dropped to 13°C once overnight but I suspect it'll be more frequent for the colder months.

I'd forgotten that cold snap back in April!


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 1, 2022)

woot 

If my plans come to fruition I will have a whole website full of telemetry - including urine timing, volume and duration 
Who knows what health metrics will reveal when placed alongside other data.

I deffo want to have my outdoor clothing chosen by a computer.

"you're going sailing today - this is what you need" ...


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 1, 2022)

Meh. My first bill was already stupid after we started using the heating. Keeping the thermostat set to 18-19c at the moment when we have it on as otherwise the heat goes to quick - also not sure our thermostat is in the most accurate place. Did manage to scab £100 back from our landlord, but having a landlord also means we are limited to what we can do.

It's going to be a really grim winter for people once the bite sets in. No idea how the government can withdraw funding for next year.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 2, 2022)

Heating usage is creeping up ... I spent 44p since yesterday.


----------



## dessiato (Dec 2, 2022)

Just got my first bill, fully in our name, for this house. We have a smart meter for the electricity, but not the gas. Apparently they don't read it nowadays. Is this normal here? Our Spanish bill was read wvery month.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 2, 2022)

dessiato said:


> Just got my first bill, fully in our name, for this house. We have a smart meter for the electricity, but not the gas. Apparently they don't read it nowadays. Is this normal here? Our Spanish bill was read wvery month.


They will read it eventually, I think they have to at least once a year by law but reading them requires someone to come and do it. Before we had smart meters we used to get mostly estimated with the odd actual read. If you think that they overcharged you, you can take your own reading, ring them up and they will send you a new bill. I'm surprised you've only got one smart meter do you get your gas/electric from seperate suppliers?


----------



## dessiato (Dec 2, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> They will read it eventually, I think they have to at least once a year by law but reading them requires someone to come and do it. Before we had smart meters we used to get mostly estimated with the odd actual read. If you think that they overcharged you, you can take your own reading, ring them up and they will send you a new bill. I'm surprised you've only got one smart meter do you get your gas/electric from seperate suppliers?


Same supplier, it was put in years ago for my f-i-l


----------



## prunus (Dec 3, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> They will read it eventually, I think they have to at least once a year by law but reading them requires someone to come and do it. Before we had smart meters we used to get mostly estimated with the odd actual read. If you think that they overcharged you, you can take your own reading, ring them up and they will send you a new bill. I'm surprised you've only got one smart meter do you get your gas/electric from seperate suppliers?



No-one (other than me) has read my electricity meter for over 5 years. No idea when it was read before that, as that’s when I bought the place.


----------



## prunus (Dec 3, 2022)

prunus said:


> No-one (other than me) has read my electricity meter for over 5 years. No idea when it was read before that, as that’s when I bought the place.



Well it’s a quiet morning so I’ve looked into this, and it looks like the requirement for them to read the meters themselves has been dropped:

21B.3 The licensee must take all reasonable steps to obtain a meter reading for each of its Customers (*including any meter reading* transmitted electronically from a meter to the licensee or *provided by the Customer* and accepted by the licensee) at least once every year.
This paragraph does not apply in relation to any Customer with a Prepayment Meter;

From The Electricity and Gas (Billing) Regulations 2014

Nothing like a bit of legislation.gov.uk of a Saturday morning.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 3, 2022)

Since I haven't used any gas for years, NPOWER used to repeatedly send horrible letters threatening door-kicking and bailiffs over "gas safety checks" - in between endless pestering texts about smart meters... switching to Bulb was followed by COVID, so no meter readings for years ...


----------



## existentialist (Dec 3, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> They will read it eventually, I think they have to at least once a year by law but reading them requires someone to come and do it. Before we had smart meters we used to get mostly estimated with the odd actual read. If you think that they overcharged you, you can take your own reading, ring them up and they will send you a new bill. I'm surprised you've only got one smart meter do you get your gas/electric from seperate suppliers?


I've been here nearly 4 years, and in that time, nobody has come to read the meter. Or at least, not when I was in, and that's the only way they're going to be able to.


----------



## Leafster (Dec 3, 2022)

I've been in my place for just over 8 years and I've only had someone read the meters once. That was about a month after I moved in. I do submit meter readings every month though so perhaps that influences how often the send someone out.


----------



## Elpenor (Dec 3, 2022)

I had a meter reading in my first week living here, but I tend to submit readings every few weeks to make sure I’m still in credit


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 4, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I do think that the standing charges are iniquitous. It's almost the definition of "regressive taxation".


Obviously standing charges are regressive with respect to use but are they, and by how much, are they regressive with respect to wealth?

Electricity use may increase with wealth but I'd predict energy efficiency to increase also. So for the same amount of electricity those of lower incomes are probably going to have to use more electricity to get the same results.

I'm living alone in a small flat which heats well, I've enough capital to go out and buy a microwave or air fryer, I can replace old inefficient equipment.
Compared a single parent with a couple of kids living in a poorly insulated house, with no option but to use an oven, old low efficiency appliances etc, my usage is going to be much lower.
Abolishing standing charges and having cost solely determined by use is surely going to benefit people like me at the expanse of low income families, and so can also be regressive.

That's not to say that the current standing charge set up is right, it's crap that people are paying for the failings of capital.
But while payment for energy comes at the point of use then don't you want some sort of standing charge (one which might look very different to the current set up) to make the system more progressive against income/wealth?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2022)

There’s a long version and an even longer version of this. I’ll try to stick to the former.

We were swapped to British Gas when People’s Energy went under in October 2021. We supplied monthly meter readings which went unacknowledged. We made sure to supply an extra reading at the end of March when the rates rocketed. But then we had a battle over several months where they kept estimating our bill, they took away the credit we’d built up, they double charging us when we paid the estimated amount but then charged us again for amounts we’d already paid, and issued a baffling array of bills and reversals so we eventually didn’t know where we stood.  We had to get the local MP involved and threaten them with Martin Lewis.  We had contradictory communications with them, and often periods of being completely ignored.

Eventually, though, we got to a place where we thought it was all sorted and we insisted on paying the amount we used when we used it to avoid the confusion building up again. The first “normal” month was the September payment.

Since then, though, they haven’t been taking direct debits. But they have been crediting us with the government rebates. We are proving readings every month on the requested date, plus again the extra one when the cap rose.

This might seem good. But I’m worried that a huge bill awaits us at some point.  It could be that we overpaid up to September  and are still in credit. I honestly would have no way of knowing: the “paper” trail is chaos and makes no sense. (One of my issues was I wanted paper bills because the figures in the app and on the website would actually change! But they haven’t been forthcoming).

Should I prod them or keep quiet?

What would you do?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Should I prod them or keep quiet?
> 
> What would you do?



Have I got this right, that you haven't managed to work out what you have used and whether you have overpaid or underpaid?  

If so, it's difficult to answer those questions.  

If you think you had it straight back in Sept., can you not work out what you have used since, how much it should have cost, and therefore if you're in credit or debt?

I had to do that over my problem with OVO, then escalated my complaint with them, giving them the 8 weeks required to resolve it, and finally going to the energy ombudsman to let them sort it out, result £570 credit for over payments, plus a goodwill payment of £150.

Now I have smart meters, I haven't had any further problems.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Dec 5, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> There’s a long version and an even longer version of this. I’ll try to stick to the former.
> 
> We were swapped to British Gas when People’s Energy went under in October 2021. We supplied monthly meter readings which went unacknowledged. We made sure to supply an extra reading at the end of March when the rates rocketed. But then we had a battle over several months where they kept estimating our bill, they took away the credit we’d built up, they double charging us when we paid the estimated amount but then charged us again for amounts we’d already paid, and issued a baffling array of bills and reversals so we eventually didn’t know where we stood.  We had to get the local MP involved and threaten them with Martin Lewis.  We had contradictory communications with them, and often periods of being completely ignored.
> 
> ...


What would I do?

What I actually do is keep it all on a spreadsheet so I know what I owe. If you have noted or have access to your readings and unit prices you can start now and that will fix the fear of a huge bill. If it's easy to get in touch with them, you could let them know they've messed up your DD but if it's a massive pain I wouldn't bother, their system will flag it eventually. Are you paying a higher tariff for PAYG? If so, let them do the work.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Have I got this right, that you haven't managed to work out what you have used and whether you have overpaid or underpaid?


That is correct.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> That is correct.



So, can you not work it out from your meter readings and current rates?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2022)

I’m going out. Will reply more later.

I must admit I didn’t keep a note of my readings until March when I realised they weren’t either!  And I don’t actually know how the readings relate to kWh. I’m a bit clueless with all that. They’re old fashioned meters.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Dec 5, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m going out. Will reply more later.
> 
> I must admit I didn’t keep a note of my readings until March when I realised they weren’t either!  And I don’t actually know how the readings relate to kWh. I’m a bit clueless with all that. They’re old fashioned meters.


Do you want a copy of my spreadsheet?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m going out. Will reply more later.
> 
> I must admit I didn’t keep a note of my readings until March when I realised they weren’t either!  *And I don’t actually know how the readings relate to kWh.* I’m a bit clueless with all that. They’re old fashioned meters.



The BiB that should be explained on your bills, it should show the calculations used to convert the meters reading in kWh/units. 

If you wish, PM me a copy of a bill and I'll see if I can help.


----------



## JimW (Dec 5, 2022)

Had our first months bill for new place which was about seventy quid, not terrible as that's everything including hot water, heating and charging two electric trikes etc but not great either. Though nights down to minus ten or so so heating working hard.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> BiB


What’s that?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> What’s that?



Bit in bold.


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 5, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> There’s a long version and an even longer version of this. I’ll try to stick to the former.
> 
> We were swapped to British Gas when People’s Energy went under in October 2021. We supplied monthly meter readings which went unacknowledged. We made sure to supply an extra reading at the end of March when the rates rocketed. But then we had a battle over several months where they kept estimating our bill, they took away the credit we’d built up, they double charging us when we paid the estimated amount but then charged us again for amounts we’d already paid, and issued a baffling array of bills and reversals so we eventually didn’t know where we stood.  We had to get the local MP involved and threaten them with Martin Lewis.  We had contradictory communications with them, and often periods of being completely ignored.
> 
> ...


As cupid_stunt says gas conversion should be stated on your bill. Electric meter reads in kWh. If you have a smart meter it will give gas usage in kWh as well.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2022)

the old meters are particularly confusing though with wheels going clockwise and anticlockwise, I've made mistakes several times. Nice now to have one with actual digits.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> As cupid_stunt says gas conversion should be stated on your bill. Electric meter reads in kWh. If you have a smart meter it will give gas usage in kWh as well.


Yeah, I’ve not received a bill since 18th Aug, for the month to 14th Aug, taken as DD on 1st Sept.  No bill since. And none since cap changed. So I don’t know the rate. Although it should be the People’s Tariff, as that’s the British Gas tariff for people transferred by the ombudsman from the Peoples Energy company.  As a variable Direct Debit customer the amount I’m billed should be automatically taken from our bank account. But I haven’t been billed. And DDs haven’t been taken.

And it’s not smart meters.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Do you want a copy of my spreadsheet?


Yes please.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> What would I do?
> 
> What I actually do is keep it all on a spreadsheet so I know what I owe. If you have noted or have access to your readings and unit prices you can start now and that will fix the fear of a huge bill. If it's easy to get in touch with them, you could let them know they've messed up your DD but if it's a massive pain I wouldn't bother, their system will flag it eventually. Are you paying a higher tariff for PAYG? If so, let them do the work.


Yeah, if kind people in this thread will teach me what I’m supposed to be doing I’ll start keeping meaningful records. 

It is not easy at all to get in touch with British Gas, and when you do, the person can’t help and doesn’t seem to have any more understanding than I do.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2022)

* There's more info on the website than on the app.  Still no bills, but I've got more to go on now.


----------



## Elpenor (Dec 5, 2022)

I am submitting frequent readings but I’ve got a horrible feeling that there is something wrong with the Eon Next app and that  the balance isn’t correct for gas. 

It still says I’m in credit due to the govt top up but I suppose it’s just a case of wait and see. You’d think it would give you a new pdf bill whenever you update with a readings.

If I do owe them money I’ll just point out I’ve submitted frequent readings and will only be willing to pay in instalments, based on the same number of months it’s happened.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 5, 2022)

JimW said:


> Had our first months bill for new place which was about seventy quid, not terrible as that's everything including hot water, heating and charging two electric trikes etc but not great either. Though nights down to minus ten or so so heating working hard.


Which supplier are you with?


----------



## JimW (Dec 5, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Which supplier are you with?


Live abroad mate. so it's the Chinese state grid; we're out in the country so get a subsidised rate at nights to help cover the cost of heating as they got everyone to swap to electric from burning solid fuel.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 5, 2022)

JimW said:


> Live abroad mate. so it's the Chinese state grid; we're out in the country so get a subsidised rate at nights to help cover the cost of heating as they got everyone to swap to electric from burning solid fuel.


D'oh! Not the reply I was expecting  but quite informative anyhow.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> I am submitting frequent readings but I’ve got a horrible feeling that there is something wrong with the Eon Next app and that  the balance isn’t correct for gas.
> 
> It still says I’m in credit due to the govt top up but I suppose it’s just a case of wait and see. You’d think it would give you a new pdf bill whenever you update with a readings.
> 
> If I do owe them money I’ll just point out I’ve submitted frequent readings and will only be willing to pay in instalments, based on the same number of months it’s happened.


Yes, that sounds like where I am now. (Assuming the September DD was correct).


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 5, 2022)

JimW said:


> Had our first months bill for new place which was about seventy quid, not terrible as that's everything including hot water, heating and charging two electric trikes etc but not great either. Though nights down to minus ten or so so heating working hard.


Do you know how many kWh that was?  Would be interesting to compare the rate with what’s charged in U.K.  Are they incentivising people to ditch solid fuel heating for heatpump electric systems, or is it simple resistive element electric heaters?  

The Chinese are so progressive these days I’d be surprised if they’re not rolling out heat pump technology, but maybe if electricity is cheap there, the economics of that don’t stack up.


----------



## JimW (Dec 5, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> Do you know how many kWh that was?  Would be interesting to compare the rate with what’s charged in U.K.  Are they incentivising people to ditch solid fuel heating for heatpump electric systems, or is it simple resistive element electric heaters?
> 
> The Chinese are so progressive these days I’d be surprised if they’re not rolling out heat pump technology, but maybe if electricity is cheap there, the economics of that don’t stack up.


Yes, it's those heat exchangers. Can't remember the exact kWh usage but current rate in Beijing is roughly CNY0.5 (six pence) per kWh, though varies a bit on time and overall usage

ETA Should say that's rural Beijing residential rate. Higher for commercial and in town IIRC


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2022)

JimW said:


> Yes, it's those heat exchangers. Can't remember the exact kWh usage but current rate in Beijing is roughly CNY0.5 (six pence) per kWh, though varies a bit on time and overall usage
> 
> ETA Should say that's rural Beijing residential rate. Higher for commercial and in town IIRC



6p per kWh, luxury! 

In the UK, with VAT, it's about 35p, would be a hell of a lot more if the government hadn't introduced the price guarantee.


----------



## JimW (Dec 5, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> 6p per kWh, luxury!
> 
> In the UK, with VAT, it's about 35p, would be a hell of a lot more if the government hadn't introduced the price guarantee.


Yeah, there's a higher rate for bigger domestic users (over 1000 kWh per month I think) but even there it's only eight or nine pence.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 5, 2022)

JimW said:


> Yes, it's those heat exchangers. Can't remember the exact kWh usage but current rate in Beijing is roughly CNY0.5 (six pence) per kWh, though varies a bit on time and overall usage
> 
> ETA Should say that's rural Beijing residential rate. Higher for commercial and in town IIRC


Interesting, thanks. They’re well ahead of the U.K. then, who are only just a starting to talk about rolling out heat pumps widely.  

6p per unit sounds good though, even if it’s a subsidised rate which might rise soon. 26p /KWh where I am.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Dec 5, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> 6p per kWh, luxury!
> 
> In the UK, with VAT, it's about 35p, would be a hell of a lot more if the government hadn't introduced the price guarantee.


Mine's 43p. Ouch!


----------



## weltweit (Dec 5, 2022)

With all the many and various posts on this thread about people's electric bills I am feeling a little smug, I pay about £50.00 a month for electricity.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Mine's 43p. Ouch!



In the UK? On a pre-payment meter? 

Or, with one of those weird green energy suppliers, that are not subject to the price cap? (Although, I thought even they were subject to the price guarantee)


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2022)

weltweit said:


> With all the many and various posts on this thread about people's electric bills I am feeling a little smug, I pay about £50.00 a month for electricity.



I only paid £33 for electric on my last bill.

It's the gas for heating that'll be the main expense over the winter months.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Dec 5, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> In the UK? On a pre-payment meter?
> 
> Or, with one of those weird green energy suppliers, that are not subject to the price cap? (Although, I thought even they were subject to the price guarantee)


That's the day tbf, at the moment as we're using the dehumidifier overnight a good 50% is night units which brings the cost down to 29p per kwh. But it's always the day rate I have fixed in my brain and daytime is when the optional usage is concentrated.


----------



## geminisnake (Dec 5, 2022)

How many payments are the Govt making to folks bills? Is it just one utility or do you get them for electric and gas if you have both?


----------



## nottsgirl (Dec 5, 2022)

British Gas only bills me every six months, since about a year and a half ago. It’s really annoying and stresses me out because I’d rather have more of an idea where I am. Even if I submit a meter reading they don’t bill me.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 5, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> British Gas only bills me every six months, since about a year and a half ago. It’s really annoying and stresses me out because I’d rather have more of an idea where I am. Even if I submit a meter reading they don’t bill me.


Me too but they have moved me (and presumably you if your account now begins with an A) to their new system. I get the impression from the website that they will send us a statement monthly going forward.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> That's the day tbf, at the moment as we're using the dehumidifier overnight a good 50% is night units which brings the cost down to 29p per kwh. But it's always the day rate I have fixed in my brain and daytime is when the optional usage is concentrated.



Now it makes sense. As long as you are 100% sure paying more during the day is offset by overnight use that's good*, my brother found it didn't, so moved onto the normal 24 hour tariff.

* Have you a smart meter to check this? 



geminisnake said:


> How many payments are the Govt making to folks bills? Is it just one utility or do you get them for electric and gas if you have both?



It's one monthly payment to each household, put against the electric side of things, as not everyone has gas.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2022)

nottsgirl said:


> British Gas only bills me every six months, since about a year and a half ago. It’s really annoying and stresses me out because I’d rather have more of an idea where I am. Even if I submit a meter reading they don’t bill me.



That's not on, put in a formal complaint demanding monthly bills back-dated and from now on, give them 8 weeks to resolve it, if they don't, then put in a complaint to the energy ombudsman, who will sort it and ensure you get at least a £100 credit as a goodwill payment.

I got £150, but my complaint against OVO was somewhat out of the ordinary. 

BTW - I highly recommend smart meters to avoid this sort of shit, I can see exactly how much I am using by day, week and month.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Dec 5, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Now it makes sense. As long as you are 100% sure paying more during the day is offset by overnight use that's good*, my brother found it didn't, so moved onto the normal 24 hour tariff.
> 
> * Have you a smart meter to check this?


I do have a smart meter, and a regular meter reading habit, and a solar panel plus battery plan, so I think I got it covered... Let that read, I hope etc.


----------



## Elpenor (Dec 5, 2022)

Picked this up for £83 today from Argos, claims to run at £0.17 / hr so more efficient 
for warming my office. Sort of an oil filled radiator but not actually filled with oil. 

Not the most stylish but seems to be ok so far if my cashback etc tracks successfully the effective price is £73.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 5, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> View attachment 354401
> Picked this up for £83 today from Argos, claims to run at £0.17 / hr so more efficient
> for warming my office. Sort of an oil filled radiator but not actually filled with oil.
> 
> Not the most stylish but seems to be ok so far if my cashback etc tracks successfully the effective price is £73.


More efficient than what ?
So you're not using the CH ?
It costs 17p per hour because it's only averaging 500 watts.
Gas watts are much cheaper.


----------



## Elpenor (Dec 5, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> More efficient than what ?
> So you're not using the CH ?
> It costs 17p per hour because it's only averaging 500 watts.
> Gas watts are much cheaper.



It warms up the small office quicker than the GCH. Also provides resilience if an issue with GCH as my boiler is approx 19 years old.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 6, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> <snip>
> 
> Since then, though, they haven’t been taking direct debits. But they have been crediting us with the government rebates. We are proving readings every month on the requested date, plus again the extra one when the cap rose. This might seem good. But I’m worried that a huge bill awaits us at some point.  It could be that we overpaid up to September  and are still in credit. I honestly would have no way of knowing: the “paper” trail is chaos and makes no sense. (One of my issues was I wanted paper bills because the figures in the app and on the website would actually change! But they haven’t been forthcoming).
> 
> *Should I prod them or keep quiet? What would you do?*



Coming back to this, danny PM'ed me some details, and I've done the calculations, so he now knows what he's used over the last 3 months, so to answer those questions, I see two options.

Put whatever you owe them into a savings account, topping it up monthly, so when they do finally bill you, you have the money to pay it, but have earnt a little interest along the way. With luck it could go on for over a year, and IIRC they can't bill you for more than 12 months back-dated.

Or, put the money to one side and send in a formal complaint by e-mail or a 'signed-for' letter addressed to the head of their complaints department, demanding they issue back-dated monthly bills for the last three months, and monthly bills henceforth, tell them they have 8 weeks to resolve the matter after which you'll take the complaint to the energy ombudsman. If you end up involving the ombudsman, you should get at least £100 as a goodwill payment.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 6, 2022)

You’re a star, cupid_stunt Thabks for your help.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 6, 2022)

AnnaKarpik also sent me her spreadsheet. So now that I’ve a better idea what to record, from Cupid’s workings, I should be able to keep a record of gas and electricity spending.

I’m currently thinking I’ll put the money aside rather than make a complaint.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 6, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> You’re a star, cupid_stunt Thabks for your help.



No problem.

Even though I had originally worked all of it out at the new tariffs, and had to go back and do it all again.  

As I said in the PM, I blame my brother for my hangover.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 6, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> AnnaKarpik also sent me her spreadsheet. So now that I’ve a better idea what to record, from Cupid’s workings, I should be able to keep a record of gas and electricity spending.
> 
> I’m currently thinking I’ll put the money aside rather than make a complaint.


I have to admit I still have no idea what I’m doing.

To explain: I don’t use XL, I’ve never understood spreadsheets, I don’t know what the columns are doing, and I thought adding a column for gas readings would be easy but it seems to get populated by figures from somewhere else entirely.

If I’ve ever been faced with an XL document in the past I’ve transferred the data into a table in word and added the figures up myself.  (This doesn’t always work because I usually haven’t seen that the XL file has tabs with stuff hidden in them).

(I also utterly hate people who use XL for stuff that isn’t sums. Like words. What the fuck is that about?)

So, yeah. I thought I’d get it but I don’t.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 6, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> (I also utterly hate people who use XL for stuff that isn’t sums. Like words. What the fuck is that about?)


Like the test and trace people we paid 36 billion to who tried to use an ancient version to process an unreasonably large amount of data.

After retiring I had to move to Libre Office which is a bit clunkier, but yes, I will paste screengrabs of info alongside spreadsheets

To insert a new column, select a column and choose "insert whole column".
If you select a section of column you are offered the choice to just expand that part of the sheet ...

I've never been a sophisticated user - I've barely moved on from Multiplan I taught myself to use in the 80s. ... I have one for finances, and another for health - like weight, blood pressure etc ...


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 6, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Like the test and trace people we paid 36 billion to who tried to use an ancient version to process an unreasonably large amount of data.
> 
> After retiring I had to move to Libre Office which is a bit clunkier, but yes, I will paste screengrabs of info alongside spreadsheets
> 
> ...


Thank you but although the individual words carry meaning, when put together they no longer do for me.


----------



## 2hats (Dec 6, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> (I also utterly hate people who use XL for stuff that isn’t sums. Like words. What the fuck is that about?)


People who use Excel everywhere because it's the only thing they know, it never occurs to them that there are simpler, more portable and appropriate options, and tools like genuine databases and higher level data analysis languages frighten them. See also: people who refer to delimited separator format text files as 'spreadsheets'.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 6, 2022)

I fucking love spreadsheets  I wrote one years ago to calculate my accounts and it has saved me shitloads of money with accountants and shitloads of time adding up figures that don't quite balance twelve times a year and then hugely don't balance at the end of the year. I even enjoy trying to correct mistakes because that will make it easier next year.

Plus  calculating energy use. I'd like to make more use of those figures because I must have 15 years of data and the columns just stretch off into the distance and when it comes to it I can never work out exactly what I should do with them.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 6, 2022)

Difficult to know where to start ... 
For myself, though no maths or Business studies person, I immediately found spreadsheets very useful and will often "doodle formulae in a spare corner if I have more than a few figures to calculate.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I
> 
> Plus  calculating energy use. I'd like to make more use of those figures because I must have 15 years of data and the columns just stretch off into the distance and when it comes to it I can never work out exactly what I should do with them.


I always cringe when I see this guy recording his data on paper.
I know he's off-grid, but there are so many things and creatures competing to eat paper...


----------



## two sheds (Dec 6, 2022)

My peak was the long 'if' statements in each of the columns to separate out the different expenses and also calculated vat when I was registered. I'd not know what other sort of formulae to use though. 

And there are indeed no words to describe people who refer to delimited separator format text files as 'spreadsheets'


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2022)

2hats said:


> People who use Excel everywhere because it's the only thing they know, it never occurs to them that there are simpler, more portable and appropriate options, and tools like genuine databases and higher level data analysis languages frighten them. See also: people who refer to delimited separator format text files as 'spreadsheets'.


in 2001 i spent a week temping at a publishers just off caledonian road. they wanted details of their author contracts put into an excel spreadsheet. but their contracts were in such an awful state, some of them said the authors would be paid in three tranches and only named the amounts to be paid in two. so i had to point out a lot of this to the person in charge of the project. i also pointed out as you have that there are databases for things like this. anyway, the second week, monday morning i'm there bright and early only to be told 'didn't your agency contact you? we're doing it inhouse now'. and as any self-respecting person does when they're sacked i went off to the pub,the alma on chapel market, which in those days opened really early for the market stall holders. got chatting to someone in there and came to the realisation that i'd been dispensed with because i was trying to do a good job. since then i've realised that excel is useful for quick and dirty databases, eg lists of journal articles. but i still wouldn't put details of contracts in an excel file.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 6, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I have to admit I still have no idea what I’m doing.
> 
> To explain: I don’t use XL, I’ve never understood spreadsheets, I don’t know what the columns are doing, and I thought adding a column for gas readings would be easy but it seems to get populated by figures from somewhere else entirely.
> 
> ...



Ditto mate, give me Adobe InDesign and I can produce a magazine ready for print, and I get on with the xero accountancy software for my wee business, but excel just freaks me out. Although the screen shots I sent you were from excel, I had only added figures up using the 'sum' icon in excel, the multiplications I did myself on a calculator and entered the answers in manually, which somewhat defeats the object of excel.   

My advice is go with KISS*, just work it out monthly when you report meter readings and I assume their system shows you the kWh's used for both electric & gas, multiply them by the current tariffs for each, likewise with the two standing charges for the number of days in that billing period, add the four elements together + 5% for VAT, and jobs a goodun.

* KISS - keep it simple stupid.  

Or, get smart meters, relax & feel smug.


----------



## JimW (Dec 6, 2022)

I translate some really hokey online game content that gets sent to me in Excel file format, weird fantasy stuff involving mystic half dragon races and whatnot


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 6, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Ditto mate, give me Adobe InDesign and I can produce a magazine ready for print, and I get on with the xero accountancy software for my wee business, but excel just freaks me out. Although the screen shots I sent you were from excel, I had only added figures up using the 'sum' icon in excel, the multiplications I did myself on a calculator and entered the answers in manually, which somewhat defeats the object of excel.
> 
> My advice is go with KISS*, just work it out monthly when you report meter readings and I assume their system shows you the kWh's used for both electric & gas, multiply them by the current tariffs for each, likewise with the two standing charges for the number of days in that billing period, add the four elements together + 5% for VAT, and jobs a goodun.
> 
> ...


That makes sense to me. I’ll do that. Probs in a paper notebook! 🤣


----------



## 2hats (Dec 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I fucking love spreadsheets  I wrote one years ago to calculate my accounts and it has saved me shitloads of money with accountants and shitloads of time adding up figures that don't quite balance twelve times a year and then hugely don't balance at the end of the year. I even enjoy trying to correct mistakes because that will make it easier next year.
> 
> Plus  calculating energy use. I'd like to make more use of those figures because I must have 15 years of data and the columns just stretch off into the distance and when it comes to it I can never work out exactly what I should do with them.


Entirely appropriate for doing your personal accounts or tracking household utility metering. Not appropriate for handling millions of records of multi-dimensional data (as PHE/UKHSA embarrassingly found out), or complex data objects, text analysis, etc.

I once watched a friend who worked in telecoms struggling to process and analyse international billing data, buried in thousands of Excel spreadsheets. A few hours of work with pandas led to around an order of magnitude reduction in effort.

Anyway, veering heavily off topic.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Dec 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I fucking love spreadsheets  I wrote one years ago to calculate my accounts and it has saved me shitloads of money with accountants and shitloads of time adding up figures that don't quite balance twelve times a year and then hugely don't balance at the end of the year. I even enjoy trying to correct mistakes because that will make it easier next year.
> 
> Plus  calculating energy use. I'd like to make more use of those figures because I must have 15 years of data and the columns just stretch off into the distance and when it comes to it I can never work out exactly what I should do with them.


I also love spreadsheets; I'm a bookkeeper, couldn't live without them, though I have heard of people who don't get on with them


----------



## Elpenor (Dec 6, 2022)

I love spreadsheets but agree they’re only for simple things really, fortunately my needs personal and work are simple enough.


----------



## Ranbay (Dec 6, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> View attachment 354401
> Picked this up for £83 today from Argos, claims to run at £0.17 / hr so more efficient
> for warming my office. Sort of an oil filled radiator but not actually filled with oil.
> 
> Not the most stylish but seems to be ok so far if my cashback etc tracks successfully the effective price is £73.



nicked one from work, and just take room to room now


----------



## Elpenor (Dec 6, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> nicked one from work, and just take room to room now


Been considering doing that myself


----------



## Leafster (Dec 7, 2022)

The results are in on my last 'month's' consumption. 

I used 27% less gas than the same period last year and the average outside temperature has been 1°C higher (8.7°C instead of 7.7°C).

Worryingly, I've used 19% more electricity though - about 10kWh/day instead of 8.5kWh/day.   I suspect this is a result of me using the dehumidifier for long periods as it's been so damp and also using the fan heater to boost the temperature occasionally when I haven't been using the Central Heating as much. I'll have to cut that out!  

I suspect there's also a trade off resulting from me having lower heating levels and increased damp.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 7, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> nicked one from work, and just take room to room now


It's not nicking, It's extended field testing under a wide variety of conditions in order to fully assess the product.


----------



## Chz (Dec 7, 2022)

It seems we qualify under somewhat nebulous rules as having a "vulnerable" person in the house (in this case, a perfectly functioning autistic child in the house). So OVO are sending us an Internet of Shit thermostat and a free boiler check. Woo.
I already have a wireless thermostat (edit: the specific glow-worm one for our boiler, not a fancy internet connected thing), so I'm not sure what to do with the damned thing. I'm sure it provides more functionality, but I don't _need _that.

See here: OVO Customer Support Offers - Free Boiler Service, Smart Thermostat and 20% off new A-Rated boilers for in-need customers @ Ovo Energy | hotukdeals


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 7, 2022)

E-mails concerning my mother's energy come to me, just opened one from EDF, her annual use for dual fuel at the new rates is just over £2,000, I had expected it to be more as she runs her heating at 23-25c.

Luckily she's getting over £1,000 in government support.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 7, 2022)

I've ordered a small terracotta pot and gonna try this hack. its not going to make much difference, but I'm intrigued. Haven't done any such experiment since secondary school in the 90s.  Before anyone mentions its dangerous etc. yes I am fully aware. Its not like I'm gonna go to bed or go outside with it left on.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 7, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> I've ordered a small terracotta pot and gonna try this hack. its not going to make much difference, but I'm intrigued. Haven't done any such experiment since secondary school in the 90s.  Before anyone mentions its dangerous etc. yes I am fully aware. Its not like I'm gonna go to bed or go outside with it left on.



let us know know how your measurements stack up


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 7, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> I've ordered a small terracotta pot and gonna try this hack. its not going to make much difference, but I'm intrigued. Haven't done any such experiment since secondary school in the 90s.  Before anyone mentions its dangerous etc. yes I am fully aware. Its not like I'm gonna go to bed or go outside with it left on.



No no no !

200 watts of electricity cost 7p per hour.

Please do not do fall for this crap.
I have posted about this on here multiple times  and left comments on YouTube channels.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 7, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> No no no !
> 
> 200 watts of electricity cost 6p per hour.
> 
> ...



sigh....always one who has to come along...


----------



## two sheds (Dec 7, 2022)

Well it's cheap heating if you set fire to the room.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 7, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Well it's cheap heating if you set fire to the room.



thats the plan.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 8, 2022)

It's not science it's ancient Internet bullshit spread by people who slept through science class when they were 11 years old.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2022)

ancient _Cornish_ Internet bullshit please


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 8, 2022)




----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2022)

ooh good for fighting condensation  

and the _Cornish_ version looks a lot safer with only one tea light




but 

why good for fighting condensation though?


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 8, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> It's not science it's ancient Internet bullshit spread by people who slept through science class when they were 11 years old.



shut up. i'll take the word of an old cornish fella over you.


----------



## prunus (Dec 8, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> I've ordered a small terracotta pot and gonna try this hack. its not going to make much difference, but I'm intrigued. Haven't done any such experiment since secondary school in the 90s.  Before anyone mentions its dangerous etc. yes I am fully aware. Its not like I'm gonna go to bed or go outside with it left on.




I don’t reckon that’s actually that dangerous, as long as it’s not somewhere it could be easily knocked over. I’d happily leave one on and go to sleep. 

However I think you’d need rather a lot of them to make any appreciable difference in even the smallest room. Heat output of those little tea lights is about 30-50W, so probably minimum of 5 or 6 for even a 2 square metre lavatory or similar. Plus you could dispense with all the plates and pots and so on and get the same effect (though they might get blown out more easily I suppose. And the pot etc make it a lot safer.)


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 8, 2022)

I saw one serious test with 4 of these in a tiny house and though it warmed the super-insulated space, the carbon monoxide level was not insignificant.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 8, 2022)

prunus said:


> I don’t reckon that’s actually that dangerous, as long as it’s not somewhere it could be easily knocked over. I’d happily leave one on and go to sleep.



What happens when the pot cracks and falls on the candles, knocking them everywhere and spreading the fire to the surrounding area?


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 8, 2022)

There is a reason there is a charitable programme to supply small solar / LED devices to Africa where children have to use kerosene lamps in small huts to do their schoolwork.
I wonder what the equivalent in cigarettes was for the average posh Victorian living with open fires and gas-lighting ...









						SolarAid - Ashden
					

Creative distribution brings solar lights to East Africa’s rural poor




					ashden.org


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 8, 2022)

are tea tree light candles safe in proximity in general? I use them all the time (when it's dark in the morning)


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 8, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> are tea tree light candles safe in proximity in general? I use them all the time (when it's dark in the morning)


I suppose it depends how lucky you feel...
The irony has suddenly hit me about all those new-agey types with their essential oil vaporisers ....


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 8, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I suppose it depends how lucky you feel...
> The irony has suddenly hit me about all those new-agey types with their essential oil vaporisers ....


Now I'm worried. I do some evening yoga with them lit as well, and candelight is less harsh than turning on a lamp first thing in the morning. I'd hate to burn the house down over christmas while doing down dog


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 8, 2022)

I have moderate OCD and unplug things and have to know where all my batteries are - and anything capable of producing a naked flame never leaves the kitchen/bathroom or garden.

I suppose a yoga mat in the middle of a tiled floor would be safe enough ...

You can get all sorts of neat and cheap flame-effect LED lamps these days.

Doubtless people who smoke will have different safety thresholds ...


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 8, 2022)

If this is as cold as it gets, I should hopefully get through the next 8 weeks on less than 5kwh per day - basically the equivalent of not replacing my fridge.
Total spent on heating so far £11.75 - rolling average 64p per day.


----------



## Chz (Dec 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> why good for fighting condensation though?


Heaven knows. Anyone who cooks with gas can tell you that combustion of hydrocarbons _creates _humidity. Condensation on windows is just the British climate; it's something we have to suffer with. So long as you live on an island where the daytime temperature rarely goes below zero, the windows are going to get wet in winter. I have ventilation and run a dehumidifier and there's still water on the windows.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 8, 2022)

Chz said:


> Condensation on windows is just the British climate; it's something we have to suffer with.



No it's not - with triple or good double glazing, and sufficient ventilation, there should not be any condensation on windows.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 8, 2022)

I get condensation on the inside of my windscreen. I have a special sponge to get rid of it. I keep experimenting with how I leave the ventilation ducts in the car in the hope of finding one that avoids condensation, but if the conditions are right I still get it.


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> but
> 
> why good for fighting condensation though?


Can't see that it would be considering that burning gives off water vapour.


----------



## Chz (Dec 8, 2022)

teuchter said:


> No it's not - with triple or good double glazing, and sufficient ventilation, there should not be any condensation on windows.


So if I have decent double glazing, a few windows open a crack, and run a dehumidifier set to 50% why is there condensation? 
(I'd say probably because its 80% humidity outside, there are 3 people in the house all day, and even good double glazed glass still gets cold enough to condense moist air. Otherwise why would triple glaze even exist?)


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 8, 2022)

Yeah I've got new double glazing, and still get condensation like with the old windows (albeit confined to an inch or so at the bottom). Presumably if I drilled holes through the frame and installed trickle vents, rendering the improved noise and heat insulation entirely pointless I might be able to reduce that somewhat, but that would be silly.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 8, 2022)

I've got double glazing and never seem to have a problem with condensation, but they came with trickle vents, which I assume is the reason that if a run a dehumidifier it switches on & off for a minute or two every so often, but doesn't collect any water.   

The trickle vents don't seem to make much difference to noise and heat insulation, although I tend to close them during very cold snaps, like now, I'll keep an eye out to see if I start getting condensation over the next few days before I open them again, if I do, I'll put the dehumidifier on and see if that collects any water. 

And, I live in a bungalow...



> *Bungalows and flats are always more prone to condensation* simply because it's more difficult to get air to circulate in a home that is laid out on a single floor. If you live in a bungalow or flat it's particularly important to ensure you have some form of ventilation in 'wet' rooms and bedrooms.


----------



## Chz (Dec 8, 2022)

I suppose I should qualify that by "condensation" I do only mean a half inch at the very bottom of the window. Not dripping down the whole pane like when I lived in a Victorian flat with sash windows. Generally night-time only downstairs, through more of the day upstairs (moist air rises, believe it or not). To be fair, the number of people in the house probably makes a much larger difference than trickle vents do. I tend to actually leave a few windows open one "notch" (where you can lock the window but it's still open a crack) any time it's above freezing at night. 

The more I think about it, it's the sort of thing that would be quite affected by the local micro-climate, too. Whether you're on a dip in the road, or at the top of a small rise. I'm always amazed at how I can have completely different weather to someone I know all of 5 miles down the road in Worcester Park.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 8, 2022)

Chz said:


> So if I have decent double glazing, a few windows open a crack, and run a dehumidifier set to 50% why is there condensation?
> (I'd say probably because its 80% humidity outside, there are 3 people in the house all day, and even good double glazed glass still gets cold enough to condense moist air. Otherwise why would triple glaze even exist?)



Obviously it's not really possible to answer the question without knowing quite a lot of detail about the house.

But assuming the double glazing is fairly decent then it points to excessive moisture in the air. There are multiple potential causes of that. For example it could be that there is general damp caused by leaking roofs or walls, or it could be that there's insufficient ventilation, for example there is not good enough extract ventilation from the main sources of humidity like the kitchen or bathrooms or areas used for drying clothes.

Ventilation can always be increased - but of course, the more you increase it, the more heat you are losing. Unless you use a heat-exchanger ventilation system, something that is gradually becoming more the norm as houses become more airtight.

Heat-exchanger ventilation systems can be expensive so of course a balance can be struck, where you ventilate (operate extract fans, open windows or use trickle vents) to a point where any condensation is tolerable. If it's a bit of condensation at the bottom of windows for brief periods during the day, and the condensation generally evaporates away later and doesn't cause water to pool up and start causing mould, then it's quite reasonable to decide it doesn't really matter, and you'd rather not increase your heating bills to get rid of something that isn't actually a problem.

But generally, it certainly isn't an inevitability in the UK climate that you will regularly see problematic condensation on double glazed windows.

The reason triple glazing exists is that even if double glazing can generally insulate to a level sufficient to keep the inner pane above the dewpoint in the UK climate, it's still losing heat and triple glazing can provide an even better level of insulation where you can reduce heating costs and increase comfort (especially when you have large areas of glazing).


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 8, 2022)

Chz said:


> I suppose I should qualify that by "condensation" I do only mean a half inch at the very bottom of the window. Not dripping down the whole pane like when I lived in a Victorian flat with sash windows. Generally night-time only downstairs, through more of the day upstairs (moist air rises, believe it or not). To be fair, the number of people in the house probably makes a much larger difference than trickle vents do. I tend to actually leave a few windows open one "notch" (where you can lock the window but it's still open a crack) any time it's above freezing at night.
> 
> The more I think about it, it's the sort of thing that would be quite affected by the local micro-climate, too. Whether you're on a dip in the road, or at the top of a small rise. I'm always amazed at how I can have completely different weather to someone I know all of 5 miles down the road in Worcester Park.


The same except in my case it's almost always upstairs only


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 8, 2022)

teuchter said:


> But assuming the double glazing is fairly decent then it points to excessive moisture in the air. There are multiple potential causes of that. For example it could be that there is general damp caused by leaking roofs or walls, or it could be that there's insufficient ventilation, for example there is not good enough extract ventilation from the main sources of humidity like the kitchen or bathrooms or areas used for drying clothes.


I dry clothes on the radiators inside in winter also I have no ventilation in my windowless bathroom at the moment and the only place I get condensation is the bottom corner of the kitchen window that must be over 40 years old. 

I seem to have more problems with condensation on the outside of the windows.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 8, 2022)

Condensation on the outside is generally a good sign your windows are well insulated: the outer pane staying cold enough to gather condensation means that not much of your indoors heat energy is leaking through and warming it up.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 10, 2022)

Read our meters yesterday, input the figures which generated the bill.

£342.71 for 88 days gas and electricity = £3.89 a day. That was with the £199.00 'gift' from the government, without that it would have been £6.16 a day.

We put aside £200.00 a month towards fuel, boiler repair/renewal etc, so _at present_ would still be within that. In the future, fuck knows. There is a lot we will give up before heat though. In the ignorance of my youth, I used to think wrinklies were talking bollocks about feeling the cold more. Now I'm a wrinkly myself...

I have G&E bills going back a decade, I haven't looked at this period last year because a grown man sobbing his heart out isn't a good look.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 10, 2022)

I posted this on the 'fucking weather' thread just after 9am this morning, it's proper buggered my target for this month.  

It is surprisingly cold around here for December, the average Dec temp is normally in the range of 4c-9c daytimes, with 4c being rare, we're averaging around 1-2c, it's not even getting up to 0c until around 10am, and down as low as -5c overnight, plus we have another week of this cold snap, it's exceptional. These are the sort temperatures we would normally expect in Feb.

It's reflected in my gas use the last few days, I've been only using about 10% less than last year, despite having a new boiler that is around 35% more efficient and heating to lower temperatures than usual, I've already used just over 30kWh* today, getting the place up to 17c. 

* Now over 45kWh just maintaining 15c indoors.

If they don't change the forecast again, we should be getting back to a more normal daytime averages of around 5-7c from next weekend.



I didn't use the heating in Oct & very little in Nov, because of the mild weather, so this grown man isn't at the sobbing stage yet, but I hope we don't get too many cold snaps like this over the rest of winter, especially with the threat of possible power cuts if we do.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 10, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I posted this on the 'fucking weather' thread just after 9am this morning, it's proper buggered my target for this month.
> 
> It is surprisingly cold around here for December, the average Dec temp is normally in the range of 4c-9c daytimes, with 4c being rare, we're averaging around 1-2c, it's not even getting up to 0c until around 10am, and down as low as -5c overnight, plus we have another week of this cold snap, it's exceptional. These are the sort temperatures we would normally expect in Feb.
> 
> ...


Are you sure you mean kWh? A kWh is a one bar electric fire for an hour, that's like burning 45 one bar fires for an hour.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

I've actually been using the fan heater locally yesterday and today with rayburn in the afternoon/evenings. Still bloody cold mind.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 10, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Are you sure you mean kWh? A kWh is a one bar electric fire for an hour, that's like burning 45 one bar fires for an hour.


Or one 3-bar fire from 7am to 10pm, which sounds less dramatic.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I've actually been using the fan heater locally yesterday and today with rayburn in the afternoon/evenings. Still bloody cold mind.



We lived in three houses that had a Rayburn when I was a kid. Amazing things.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 10, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Are you sure you mean kWh? A kWh is a one bar electric fire for an hour, that's like burning 45 one bar fires for an hour.



Yep it's 45kHw of gas so far today, see the gas & kWh tabs selected in the graph above, and this is what the comparison with last year looks like with the gas and cost tabs selected, bearing in mind I was using over 50% less in the first six days of Dec.  



My cost on variable tariffs per kWh from last Dec to this one is up around 75% for electric and 165% for gas.

Lucky I saved almost 1500kWh of gas in Oct & Nov.  

My heart goes out to those in uninsulated homes and/or with only electric as a heating option.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 10, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yep it's 45kHw of gas so far today, see the gas & kWh tabs selected in the graph above, and this is what the comparison with last year looks like with the gas and cost tabs selected, bearing in mind I was using over 50% less in the first six days of Dec.
> 
> View attachment 355115
> 
> ...



We are uninsulated single concrete walls, but with gas heating. At our age the cost of insulation would never be recouped.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> We lived in three houses that had a Rayburn when I was a kid. Amazing things.


It's ancient and it's driving the radiators which makes a real difference but I'm only burning wood and starting in the afternoon so it doesn't get as hot as it should. Am going to light it soon though - also for cooking and constant supply of hot water bottles.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> It's ancient and it's driving the radiators which makes a real difference but I'm only burning wood and starting in the afternoon so it doesn't get as hot as it should. Am going to light it soon though - also for cooking and constant supply of hot water bottles.



Many a newborn lamb got warmed up in a Rayburn oven.  

We used to burn peat in it.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

the dog goes and lies right next to it as soon as it's lit - which I'm not hugely keen on tbh because I'm having to be constantly aware as I'm transporting pans of boiling water around.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 10, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Many a newborn lamb got warmed up in a Rayburn oven.
> 
> We used to burn peat in it.



I love the smell of burning peat, that was our main fuel in Ireland, with just one open fire in a 5-bed house, ye olde ice on the inside of windows days.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

As opposed to the extremely nasty smell of burning coal with just one open fire in the house and ice on the inside of windows.


----------



## Supine (Dec 10, 2022)

sojourner said:


> Ta. Fkn Northerners get the shitty end of the stick again.



Yeah, but we don’t have to live down south.


----------



## cesare (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> As opposed to the extremely nasty smell of burning coal with just one open fire in the house and ice on the inside of windows.


The smell of burning coal smells somewhat homely to me ... when I stayed with my grandparents as a kid there was coal everywhere. It fired the fire and hot water. There were shingles of it everywhere in the gullies between the back to backs, the air was tainted with it, and the street railings were covered in coal dust, absolutely black as soot hands when you used them.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

I'll swear the coal dust was a contributory factor to my asthma 

and the dog is now lying on the hot water bottle


----------



## cesare (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I'll swear the coal dust was a contributory factor to my asthma
> 
> and the dog is now lying on the hot water bottle


Yep mine too.

The dog has good sense


----------



## Chz (Dec 10, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Are you sure you mean kWh? A kWh is a one bar electric fire for an hour, that's like burning 45 one bar fires for an hour.


Just checked ours for fun. 70kWh yesterday. The 3rd was only 45 for us. (gas only - add 10 for electric)
It's the joy of two people working from home and a sick child, so it's worth keeping it at 20C for the day.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Dec 10, 2022)

My husband is claiming that he needs to put a bit of heating upstairs because it's too cold for his tablet to charge.  Is that a real thing?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> My husband is claiming that he needs to put a bit of heating upstairs because it's too cold for his tablet to charge.  Is that a real thing?


I don’t know, but can’t he charge it in a room that’s already heated?


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 10, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> My husband is claiming that he needs to put a bit of heating upstairs because it's too cold for his tablet to charge.  Is that a real thing?


even if it started out cold, the charging process is inefficient and generates heat.
In general with electronics, the cooler the better...


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Dec 10, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I don’t know, but can’t he charge it in a room that’s already heated?


There aren't any heated rooms at sleepy-time night, ever. He wants to heat the bedroom so he doesn't have to get out of bed. You would not believe how much time that man spends playing games on that blooming tablet.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Dec 10, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> even if it started out cold, the charging process is inefficient and generates heat.
> In general with electronics, the cooler the better...


I knew it!


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 10, 2022)

Yes there are extremes - like large battery banks in freezing garages, but not a Liion cell crammed into a tablet or phone.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 12, 2022)

Just had an email telling me my bill is going up by £495/year in January.

Merry fucking Christmas.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 12, 2022)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> let us know know how your measurements stack up



It seems to have made a tiny difference  thermometer was reading 15.5 when I started. its now reading 15.7


----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2022)

you need to put the thermometer on the upturned plate for maximum benefit, it's far too far away


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 12, 2022)

I'm gonna move the thermometer next to the tissue box. the temp should increase. I can feel the heat behind my head while in bed surfing the net. Update will follow. Stay tuned, kids.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 12, 2022)

wow. instant impact


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 12, 2022)

Its now at 16 daygrees.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 12, 2022)

I take it that's a light bulb under that and not a naked flame ?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 13, 2022)

AnnaKarpik said:


> There aren't any heated rooms at sleepy-time night, ever. He wants to heat the bedroom so he doesn't have to get out of bed. *You would not believe how much time that man spends playing games on that blooming tablet*.


Really?


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 15, 2022)

Unexpectedly From Bulb :-



> ​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


0.161p less per KWH
I anticipate that this first cold month I will be charged for approx 165kwh  - so I would have been 26.565 *pence *better off ...
Party time


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 15, 2022)

I'm sure no one can beat this which I had in a letter from EDF: 





Meanwhile a relative's EON account that I manage is going up meaningfully:


----------



## prunus (Dec 15, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I'm sure no one can beat this which I had in a letter from EDF:
> 
> View attachment 355745
> 
> ...



I make that 1p saving per MWh.  Every little helps


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 15, 2022)

No emails received from EDF yet. I'm waiting...


----------



## magneze (Dec 15, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Unexpectedly From Bulb :-
> 
> 
> 0.161p less per KWH
> ...


Eh? Mine's INCREASING? WTF


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 15, 2022)

magneze said:


> Eh? Mine's INCREASING? WTF


I hear Bulb are increasing tariffs for Economy 7 ...
Everyone's will increase on 1st April - thankfully when we're using less ...


----------



## magneze (Dec 15, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I hear Bulb are increasing tariffs for Economy 7 ...
> Everyone's will increase on 1st April - thankfully when we're using less ...


We don't have Economy 7. Bit weird - we're with Bulb too.


----------



## Superdupastupor (Dec 15, 2022)

i used to have an infra-red themometer that cost8£ or something,

Simple joy of life, cold spot on the wall  MOVE THE CHAIR, ceramic hob after being full blast 389cº- hmm interesting probably burn ward. Ma bonce 37.3cº, 37,8ºc after an hour slow jog, ammm feeling poorly, 38,2cº ....SEE im no jist mumping ect................great fun


----------



## two sheds (Dec 15, 2022)

Superdupastupor said:


> i used to have an infra-red themometer that cost8£ or something,
> 
> Simple joy of life, cold spot on the wall  MOVE THE CHAIR, ceramic hob after being full blast 389cº- hmm interesting probably burn ward. Ma bonce 37.3cº, 37,8ºc after an hour slow jog, ammm feeling poorly, 38,2cº ....SEE im no jist mumping ect................great fun


that's really interesting - I was thinking of hiring a proper imager but this 



			https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B089DYHPC6/?tag=anhudiku-21&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1
		


has got a laser spot that I presume you could point at various suspect points on insulating surfaces (windows etc) to get an idea. Also free meat thermometer and mine's currently fucked. Can't see it other than Amazon so might throw them £20.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 15, 2022)

Well the short answer seems to be 'yes' 



will give it a try


----------



## Superdupastupor (Dec 15, 2022)

two sheds

it was yello, stylish bit o kit rubber grip in the usual black poly-whatever.
,
I thiink a lot of the fun came from it being basically an IRed_gun.....seagull-26 on the wings 15 the beak, how hot's that deciduous tree?, the perenial is a bit warmer gonna steal some UV...

Pint  of Carling  7º Guiness 5,6º--- stop shooting the others here, bit rude...can't take you anywhere. ect


two sheds  o yeh it had a pretty consistent steady reading over a range of 8m, did't like shiny things pots and pan foil mirrors


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 15, 2022)

donkyboy any updates on the flowerpot heater ?


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 15, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> donkyboy any updates on the flowerpot heater ?



Its alright when I'm right next to it.  But not enough impact to really make much difference. I would need probably 10 of them grouped together.  Much better suited to a very very small room or maybe caravan.  My bedroom is too big.


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 15, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> Its alright when I'm right next to it.  But not enough impact to really make much difference. I would need probably 10 of them grouped together.  Much better suited to a very very small room or maybe caravan.  My bedroom is too big.


Have you tried larger flowerpots?


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 16, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Have you tried larger flowerpots?


larger tealights?


----------



## kabbes (Dec 16, 2022)

It’s almost like a tealight doesn’t give out much heat.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 16, 2022)

Oh yes? You try holding your hand over one you'll feel the heat then though won't you eh? eh?


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 16, 2022)

Yesterday was our biggest electricity usage day this year. 27.3kWh gone in one day   Purely down to how cold it is outside, so can’t be avoided.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 16, 2022)

I had the fan heater on for a good 6 or 7 hours yesterday. Had to be done though, and apparently warming up for a while from today


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 16, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Have you tried larger flowerpots?



No. I didn't order  a large flower pot as its more expensive. went for the cheaper small version. but yeah, you could be right on that.


----------



## High Voltage (Dec 16, 2022)

What might work could be using a large propane burner instead of a tea light and a metal drum instead of a flower pot


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 16, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> What might work could be using a large propane burner instead of a tea light and a metal drum instead of a flower pot





			https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tea-Light-Candle-Heater-Candlestick/dp/B0BKL4G3GN/ref=sr_1_13?crid=3RALPFHJ4HBXB&keywords=tea+lights+oven&qid=1671175644&sprefix=tea+lights+oven%2Caps%2C78&sr=8-13
		


maybe.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 16, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> Yesterday was our biggest electricity usage day this year. 27.3kWh gone in one day   Purely down to how cold it is outside, so can’t be avoided.



I was averaging around 20kHw of gas use for the first 6 days of December, then this 10 day long cold snap happened, and that shot up to around 40kWh per day, peaking on the three coldest days at between 50-55kHw, costing 10.3p per kWh, I don't want too many days like that.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 16, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tea-Light-Candle-Heater-Candlestick/dp/B0BKL4G3GN/ref=sr_1_13?crid=3RALPFHJ4HBXB&keywords=tea+lights+oven&qid=1671175644&sprefix=tea+lights+oven%2Caps%2C78&sr=8-13
> 
> 
> 
> maybe.



Yeh well that's double skinned for safety 

Love the photos and list of benefits.


----------



## High Voltage (Dec 16, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tea-Light-Candle-Heater-Candlestick/dp/B0BKL4G3GN/ref=sr_1_13?crid=3RALPFHJ4HBXB&keywords=tea+lights+oven&qid=1671175644&sprefix=tea+lights+oven%2Caps%2C78&sr=8-13
> 
> 
> 
> maybe.


Don't want to mess about with tea lights though I refer you to my propane burner solution above


----------



## two sheds (Dec 16, 2022)

Yeh that one can hold up to 10 tea lights, though, 60% more than similar products.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 16, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I was averaging around 20kHw of gas use for the first 6 days of December, then this 10 day long cold snap happened, and that shot up to around 40kWh per day, peaking on the three coldest days at between 50-55kHw, costing 10.3p per kWh, I don't want too many days like that.
> 
> View attachment 355851


We are at the mercy of the weather this time of year.  I’m hoping for a milder jan and feb because December has been sucky 😢


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 16, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> We are at the mercy of the weather this time of year.  I’m hoping for a milder jan and feb because December has been sucky 😢



I think we are all hoping for that.

In the meantime I am looking forward to the weekend when temperatures here in Worthing will improve from days when it hasn't gone above 0c, to 7c Sat, 9c Sun, and a whopping 13c on Mon.

I'll be able to re-open the trickle vents on the windows, and let some fresh air in.


----------



## savoloysam (Dec 16, 2022)

EDF auto transferred to the E7 tariff without consulting me which means my usage went up even further because I don't use any E7 devices 

After spending an hour and a half getting through on the phone they are going to change it back and reimburse me though.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 16, 2022)

savoloysam said:


> EDF auto transferred to the E7 tariff without consulting me which means my usage went up even further because I don't use any E7 devices
> 
> After spending an hour and a half getting through on the phone they are going to change it back and reimburse me though.


But you have an E7 meter ?
So some sort of admin glitch.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 16, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I think we are all hoping for that.
> 
> In the meantime I am looking forward to the weekend when temperatures here in Worthing will improve from days when it hasn't gone above 0c, to 7c Sat, 9c Sun, and a whopping 13c on Mon.
> 
> I'll be able to re-open the trickle vents on the windows, and let some fresh air in.


13? Good grief. Not much hope of a white Christmas then 🎅


----------



## savoloysam (Dec 16, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> But you have an E7 meter ?
> So some sort of admin glitch.


No they sent a letter out saying "you have requested to change your tariff, here are your details"

They called me last month offering me a smart meter which I refused. Whoever called must have thought I was on the wrong tariff and changed it. We never discussed tariffs at all.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 16, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> Don't want to mess about with tea lights though I refer you to my propane burner solution above



i'll have a look. propane burner tea light on ali express


----------



## High Voltage (Dec 16, 2022)

donkyboy said:


> i'll have a look. propane burner tea light on ali express


I've had a second look at the tea light oven you posted the link to and I reckon if you removed all the tea lights and put in, maybe, half a inch of petrol that'd warm you up nicely


----------



## two sheds (Dec 16, 2022)

"makes an ideal present"


----------



## Chz (Dec 16, 2022)

kabbes said:


> It’s almost like a tealight doesn’t give out much heat.


And even if they did, you'd have thought the _repeated _warnings from the Fire Brigade to not do it would put you off.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 16, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I've had a second look at the tea light oven you posted the link to and I reckon if you removed all the tea lights and put in, maybe, half a inch of petrol that'd warm you up nicely


 will give it a bash. what could go wrong?


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 16, 2022)

These are IR radiators - whether it's a candle underneath or an electric element - my tubular greenhouse bed heater can be a bit much sometimes (my bed is only 2'6 wide). 

A bit niche ...Perhaps nice to have in a working area for when your hands get cold ...

A key issue is my starting point is lagging so it's difficult to get the heat to where it's needed.
Heated clothing has to be the future ...


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 16, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> These are IR radiators - whether it's a candle underneath or an electric element - my tubular greenhouse bed heater can be a bit much sometimes (my bed is only 2'6 wide).
> 
> A bit niche ...Perhaps nice to have in a working area for when your hands get cold ...
> 
> ...


Subcutaneous thermal implants fed from kinetic generators built into your joints…..

…that’s the future. 🔥


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 16, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> Subcutaneous thermal implants fed from kinetic generators built into your joints…..
> 
> …that’s the future. 🔥



I always found it annoying that I would cycle to work and peel off a damp tee shirt, but along the way my thumbs were painful as the circulation was restored...
Of course the thing with the thumbs is that they're static and exposed to the cold air ...


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 16, 2022)

High Voltage said:


> I've had a second look at the tea light oven you posted the link to and I reckon if you removed all the tea lights and put in, maybe, half a inch of petrol that'd warm you up nicely


Back when we were young and stupid a friend tried to add petrol onto a bonfire by spraying it from a washing up liquid bottle.
For about a second it looked like he was holding a flamethrower.
Then he had the sense to throw it, unfortunately he threw it into the fucking fire. There were people diving for cover all over the place.


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 16, 2022)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> larger tealights?


Larger plant pots and a bunch of Roman candles?


----------



## prunus (Dec 16, 2022)

MrCurry said:


> Subcutaneous thermal implants fed from kinetic generators built into your joints…..
> 
> …that’s the future. 🔥



I have these already.  I suspect you do too.


----------



## newme (Dec 16, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I always found it annoying that I would cycle to work and peel off a damp tee shirt, but along the way my thumbs were painful as the circulation was restored...
> Of course the thing with the thumbs is that they're static and exposed to the cold air ...


I had this on my motorbike, went from bike gloves, to bike gloves plus some thermal gloves, to adding hand shields, then another pair of thermal gloves, tends to be colder than usual at 5am when I was riding, especially with all the 'wind' chill.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 16, 2022)

newme said:


> I had this on my motorbike, went from bike gloves, to bike gloves plus some thermal gloves, to adding hand shields, then another pair of thermal gloves, tends to be colder than usual at 5am when I was riding, especially with all the 'wind' chill.


My brother only rides his motorbike during the warm months these days. He insures and taxes it for 6 months but Oct to March it just sits in the back of his garage under a sheet.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 16, 2022)

I used to get very cold fingers on my motorbike in winter. 

First I got some silky inner gloves which helped. 

Then I got some waxed cotton over mittens which made all the difference. 

Except that they scared me sometimes because I was used to being able to brake with one or two fingers on the right lever, the other fingers staying round the twist grip. Sometimes I would go to brake with my two fingers when I had the mittens on and I couldn't lift my fingers because of the mittens. Cue a moment of terror!


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 16, 2022)

weltweit said:


> I used to get very cold fingers on my motorbike in winter.
> 
> First I got some silky inner gloves which helped.
> 
> ...


Yes, I used to ride motorcycles in winter with Belstaff over mitts and silky inners.
I seem to remember being happy with them ..
I now have cheap aldi ski mitts, but I hate cycling in them because the layers slide over one another so I don't feel I'm properly gripping the handlebar.


----------



## newme (Dec 16, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> My brother only rides his motorbike during the warm months these days. He insures and taxes it for 6 months but Oct to March it just sits in the back of his garage under a sheet.


The motorbike was an upgrade to walking 45 mins through the winter, then a train, then another 15 minute walk which I did from September til June and could then finally afford it all. Compared to that some cold hands wasn't too bad lol. Moved to full wfh quite some time ago, bikes been sat on the drive for 3 years now, I dread to think what the getting it back on the road costs will be.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 16, 2022)

I just told off a candle heater YouTuber - he said he was a librarian so knew that the flowerpot emitted more energy than he put in so - I suggested he contact the nuclear fusion people...
Then I looked at his other videos - all Nikola Tesla and over-unity ....  



> The best way to answer your question is to let you know I'm a librarian and everything I've read in the laws of physics suggests that the energy you put into thermal Mass Gives You More Energy out, perhaps you should look at some videos on YouTube about sand batteries. Thank you for the comment and hopefully the next video will be better for you.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 16, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I just told off a candle heater YouTuber - he said he was a librarian so knew that the flowerpot emitted more energy than he put in so - I suggested he contact the nuclear fusion people...
> Then I looked at his other videos - all Nikola Tesla and over-unity ....


Did he have an opinion about Fauci?


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 16, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Did he have an opinion about Fauci?


Surprisingly no - or anything covid-related ...


----------



## two sheds (Dec 16, 2022)

Perhaps suggest he might want to build this out of flowerpots.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2022)

Not sure why mine is only projected to go up £4 next year?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 16, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Not sure why mine is only projected to go up £4 next year?
> 
> View attachment 355890



Wait until April, when the energy price guarantee goes up by 20%.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 16, 2022)

Got an E-mail from Scottish Power to do with an increase. Deleted it unread.


----------



## prunus (Dec 16, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Not sure why mine is only projected to go up £4 next year?
> 
> View attachment 355890


They’re cutting you off in early March.


----------



## Hollis (Dec 19, 2022)

I've had a similar weird price prediction.. No idea if this is expensive or cheap.  My account is currently £590 in credit..


----------



## CH1 (Dec 19, 2022)

Hollis said:


> I've had a similar weird price prediction.. No idea if this is expensive or cheap:
> 
> View attachment 356395


Sounds cheap to me. Are you blessed with an A EPC rating?


----------



## Hollis (Dec 19, 2022)

I think its more a case of not turing the gas central heating on at all!

I've made more of an effort to turn lights and unusued laptops off the last few months, and stopped using the washer/dryer.  But that's all.


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 19, 2022)

Got a letter from utility warehouse the other day. No change to gas prices from January and a drop of 0.2p per kWh in electric saving a grand total of £4 per year.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 19, 2022)

I’ve been told my electricity bill is going _up_ by approx 400/year from January


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 20, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I’ve been told my electricity bill is going _up_ by approx 400/year from January


Gold plated electrons?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 20, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I’ve been told my electricity bill is going _up_ by approx 400/year from January



Are you coming off a fixed price deal, and onto the standard tariff?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 20, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Are you coming off a fixed price deal, and onto the standard tariff?



Something odd going on, because on one hand they say this, yet my direct debit is going up by £31. That maths doesn’t add up


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 20, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> View attachment 356408
> Something odd going on, because on one hand they say this, yet my direct debit is going up by £31. That maths doesn’t add up



I assume those rates inc. VAT, so your increase is £246pa / 12 = £20.50 pm extra, not £31. At your current £2157pa you should already have been paying a whopping £179,75pm, perhaps you have been slightly unpaying?  

I thought it was odd that your rates are going up in Jan, as standard rates are still subject to the energy price guarantee, that's the £2,500 pa for combined electric & gas for the 'average home' that gets bandied about, until 1st Apr when it goes up to £3,000 pa. I see you're with OVO, and a quick dig around I see they are putting up economy 7 rates, but I can't find anything in the energy price guarantee that covers economy 7 rates, which is a bit odd.

Those new unit rates are increases of about +5% daytimes, and +20% overnight, which has me wondering if being on economy 7 rates is actually worthwhile for you. 

I am with OVO on their single day & night rate, and they are not increasing those. The exact split between unit rate & standing charge varies from company to company, and there's some small regional variations too, but the energy price guarantee inc. VAT is 34.04p per unit/SC 46.36p per day. whereas I am paying inc. VAT 35.31p per unit/SC 42.67p per day, which suits me as a low user.

Now the big question is if you would be better off on the single day & night rate, and that depends on how much electric you are using overnight at the lower rate compared to the day rate usage, my brother uses both the washing machine & dishwasher overnight and was surprised that he was paying more overall on economy 7 rates and higher standing charge, so switched to the single rate.

Storage heaters, or grow lights running at night, are the big things that I can think of that would make being on economy 7 worthwhile. 

I assume you are heating with electric, because 7553kWh a year is a hell of a lot, mine is going to be well under 1000kWh going forward, but I have gas for heating & hot water.

I would suggest you look at your 2022 energy use so far in your OVO account, and see how much you are using at the different rates, calculate those at both the new 40.26p & 24.48p rates, then add the kWh used together and calculate that at the 34.04p single rate, plus make an adjustment to the standing charge you are going to be paying at 49.23p compared to mine at 46.36p per day, and see if it's worth changing.  

Or, if it helps, post up or PM me a screen grab of this below, and I'll work it out for you.



(Yours should show 2 different rates of electric, instead of a line for gas).


----------



## geminisnake (Dec 20, 2022)

People who have gas central heating, can you tell me is gch meant to cost £1 an hr? Is this usual, cos it sounds a bit high to me.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 20, 2022)

geminisnake said:


> People who have gas central heating, can you tell me is gch meant to cost £1 an hr? Is this usual, cos it sounds a bit high to me.


At 10p per KWH, that would be 10kw.
I used to have a single gas fire rated at 6kw and it took all that to heat my insanely cold and draughty downstairs room...


----------



## Leafster (Dec 20, 2022)

geminisnake said:


> People who have gas central heating, can you tell me is gch meant to cost £1 an hr? Is this usual, cos it sounds a bit high to me.


I don't have a smart meter so I can't assess how much the GCH costs to run when it's 'on' but I know for November, as a whole, it cost me £4.63 per day (including hot water and gas hob).

December will be more!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 20, 2022)

geminisnake said:


> People who have gas central heating, can you tell me is gch meant to cost £1 an hr? Is this usual, cos it sounds a bit high to me.



There's so many variables TBH, first thing in the morning during the cold snap I used just over £1 in the first hour heating from a very cold start, then it settled down, IIRC it took about 80p to raise the temperature by just 1c, but only about 30p per 1c after that. 

My worst day this month cost about £5.75, today I've used just £1.36 and don't expect to use any more, because this place holds the heat well when it's not bloody freezing outside, plus I've gott passive solar gain today with my south facing living room wall being 90% glass and the sun is out.

Depends on the boiler's age and efficiency, the flow rate, how big a space you are heating, outside temperatures, etc., etc.


----------



## Leafster (Dec 20, 2022)

As cupid_stunt mentioned the variables, I should have added that my place is a 2 bed, 2 reception detached 1930s bungalow with inconsistent insulation.

It has a 2 year old combi boiler and zoned heating.

ETA: I work from home so the heating is on in at least one room from 6:30am to 10:00pm (ish)


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 20, 2022)

geminisnake said:


> People who have gas central heating, can you tell me is gch meant to cost £1 an hr? Is this usual, cos it sounds a bit high to me.


Depends on how much your boiler is using at that given moment, it only uses gas when the burner is running. I've seen mine using over a £1 an hour a couple of times but that is at 6am when the heating has literally just come on and the water in the system is cold. Most of that energy is being used in heating that water up from 20C or whatever it has cooled to overnight back up to 60C again. Once it gets the water in the CH hot the consumption will nose dive as it just has to keep topping the heat up.
Currently mine is running at about 15p per hour. What really matters is how long it runs at £1 p/h and the factors affecting that are how big your system is radiator wise since more water requires more time and hence more energy and how cold the house is since the colder it is the more radiators will lose heat to the air (which they're supposed to of course) and the colder the water is when it is returned to the boiler.
Mine is  a 30Kwh boiler so I suppose in theory it could use up to £3 p/h but the most I have seen is about £1.08 p/hr if memory serves me right.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 20, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I assume those rates inc. VAT, so your increase is £246pa / 12 = £20.50 pm extra, not £31. At your current £2157pa you should already have been paying a whopping £179,75pm, perhaps you have been slightly unpaying?
> 
> I thought it was odd that your rates are going up in Jan, as standard rates are still subject to the energy price guarantee, that's the £2,500 pa for combined electric & gas for the 'average home' that gets bandied about, until 1st Apr when it goes up to £3,000 pa. I see you're with OVO, and a quick dig around I see they are putting up economy 7 rates, but I can't find anything in the energy price guarantee that covers economy 7 rates, which is a bit odd.
> 
> ...


Storage heaters and an immersion heater for hot water. There’s no gas in the property at all, hence Economy 7.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 20, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Storage heaters and an immersion heater for hot water. There’s no gas in the property at all, hence Economy 7.



That's a bugger. 

And, it's possible that Economy 7 is still best for you, but with your day rate going up 5% and night rate by a shocking 20%, when mine is not increasing at all, I would still suggest doing the maths to make sure.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 20, 2022)

and are the night storage heaters releasing the heat when you need them to.


----------



## rubbershoes (Dec 20, 2022)

My supplier seems to have woken up to the fact that they're only charging me for some of the power I use. 

After being able to only input one meter reading rather than both for the last year, they're now messaging me asking for two. 

Sadly I can't help as their emails have gone into my spam box and I haven't seen them.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 20, 2022)

two sheds said:


> and are the night storage heaters releasing the heat when you need them to.



IME, probably not.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 20, 2022)

two sheds said:


> and are the night storage heaters releasing the heat when you need them to.


They’re perfectly designed to release all the heat during the day when I’m at work, and to have run out almost precisely when I usually get home.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 20, 2022)

I only recently learned that economy 7 daytime tariffs were higher than normal tariffs, which I find strange since surely people are doing them a favour taking night-time power.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Dec 20, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> My supplier seems to have woken up to the fact that they're only charging me for some of the power I use.
> 
> After being able to only input one meter reading rather than both for the last year, they're now messaging me asking for two.
> 
> Sadly I can't help as their emails have gone into my spam box and I haven't seen them.



Don't ever let them install "smart" meters.  I ended up with a big bill the month after they did that here.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 20, 2022)

two sheds said:


> *I only recently learned that economy 7 daytime tariffs were higher than normal tariffs*, which I find strange since surely people are doing them a favour taking night-time power.



They didn't used to be, I've no idea when that changed, but when I pointed it out to my brother, he found he would save money by switching to the normal tariffs.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 20, 2022)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Don't ever let them install "smart" meters.  I ended up with a big bill the month after they did that here.



That wouldn't be down to the smart meter, but the closing reading on your old meter being higher than what the supplier had expected, due to pervious under estimating, or it being mis-read by the installer of your new smart meter. 

Surely you took a closing meter reading yourself, to ensure it was correct before having the meter changed?

Personally I was over-charged by around £500 for electric, which I made sure was resolved first, as I didn't want a dispute over the closing reading, before having smart meters installed, which have proved to be a godsend.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 20, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> They didn't used to be, I've no idea when that changed, but when I pointed it out to my brother, he found he would save money by switching to the normal tariffs.


I had storage heaters in my flat 1978-1986 and the daytime tariff was higher than the "normal" tariff then - so I don't think you are right on this particular.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 20, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I had storage heaters in my flat 1978-1986 and the daytime tariff was higher than the "normal" tariff then - so I don't think you are right on this particular.



I know people that had storage heaters in the 90s and that wasn't the case for them, but it had all been privatised by then, so probably varied depending on supplier.


----------



## Chz (Dec 20, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I know people that had storage heaters in the 90s and that wasn't the case for them, but it had all been privatised by then, so probably varied depending on supplier.


Why on earth would anyone *not* be on E7 then? Granted I've only lived here 20 years, but it's been that way for the entirety of that time. It simply wouldn't make sense to even have a normal tariff if E7 wasn't pricier during the day.


----------



## cybershot (Dec 20, 2022)

Martin Lewis has put something up today on fb saying economy 7 people are getting screwed and it’s probably cheaper to move to a single tariff. Proper article incoming and that he’ll be lobbying ofgem


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 20, 2022)

Chz said:


> Why on earth would anyone *not* be on E7 then? Granted I've only lived here 20 years, but it's been that way for the entirety of that time. It simply wouldn't make sense to even have a normal tariff if E7 wasn't pricier during the day.



Because E7 was designed for people with storage heaters, and required special meters, for people using bugger all electric overnight it wouldn't be worth fluffing around getting a replacement meter, which probably wasn't a free option back in day anyway. 

Besides, any different in rates would be nothing like what they are now.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 20, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Martin Lewis has put something up today on fb saying economy 7 people are getting screwed and it’s probably cheaper to move to a single tariff. Proper article incoming and that he’ll be lobbying ofgem



Interesting, that seems to confirm my suspicion, hence me banging on about beesonthewhatnow doing the maths.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Dec 20, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Surely you took a closing meter reading yourself, to ensure it was correct before having the meter changed?



No chance to read the meter.  We weren't informed as to when they'd show up.  Their notice was a letter at the beginning of year saying they'd be changing them out over the course of the year.

... and don't call me "Shirley."


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## CH1 (Dec 20, 2022)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> No chance to read the meter.  We weren't informed as to when they'd show up.  Their notice was a letter at the beginning of year saying they'd be changing them out over the course of the year.
> 
> ... and don't call me "Shirley."


I was in our local cash only barbershop having my hair cut yesterday when the meter reader (for the shop) turned up.
I was shocked - I haven't seen a meter reader in my home since about 2015.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 20, 2022)

some of them just get lost  

one came round every year until about four years ago but not seen one since then


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 20, 2022)

luckily the weather has improved. no heating turned on today. the flat isn't has cold as it was last week or so.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 20, 2022)

two sheds said:


> some of them just get lost
> 
> one came round every year until about four years ago but not seen one since then


Same thing happened with the Ninth Legion up our way. They were there to read the Pictish meters. Never seen again. Total mystery.


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## cupid_stunt (Dec 21, 2022)

cybershot said:


> Martin Lewis has put something up today on fb saying economy 7 people are getting screwed and it’s probably cheaper to move to a single tariff. Proper article incoming and that he’ll be lobbying ofgem



Here's the article.



			https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/12/economy-7-price-rises-form-january/


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 24, 2022)




----------



## WouldBe (Dec 24, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> View attachment 356892


Does it run on tealights?


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 24, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Does it run on tealights?


240 volt - maybe 60 watt bayonet cap incandescent - so only slightly lethal.
Possibly the daftest thing is the unshielded fan is powered from a PP3 battery !


----------



## CH1 (Dec 24, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Here's the article.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/12/economy-7-price-rises-form-january/


Nice to see moneysavingexpert seems to share the same online spellcheck as urban
"form" "from"


----------



## extra dry (Dec 25, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> View attachment 356892


It will soon have that area very warm indeed


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 25, 2022)

I'm looking at the previous owners hive and if I'm reading this right they put foil behind the radiators and also kept the heating on from 7am till 9pm at 21 degrees.

This is just so far beyond how I use heating I have a little brain melt when I think about it.


----------



## Storm Fox (Dec 25, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> View attachment 356892It will briefly make you home very toasty indeed.


----------



## not a trot (Dec 25, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> 240 volt - maybe 60 watt bayonet cap incandescent - so only slightly lethal.
> Possibly the daftest thing is the unshielded fan is powered from a PP3 battery !


Looks like something the Blue Peter team would have knocked up 50 odd years ago.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 26, 2022)

Sadly it seems a bit c we


not a trot said:


> Looks like something the Blue Peter team would have knocked up 50 odd years ago.


It's actually quite sad ..
I'm signed up to quite a few DIY electronics channels so get shown these things a lot - and some of these people are very short on resources ...

These units have half a razor blade to do the chopping ...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> ooh good for fighting condensation
> 
> and the _Cornish_ version looks a lot safer with only one tea light
> 
> ...



It's not. Burning hydrocarbon fuels produces water vapour, for one thing.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 26, 2022)

Anyway, I don't know about you lot, but even though it's dipped to 6 degrees outside it's a comfortable 14 indoors so I'm once again down to only using no more than 1kwh per day for targeted heating.
That's an average of 40 watts or maybe 2 teelights - but that's in addition to the 90 watts I emit and the 270 watts from my PC for the 12 hours it's running.
I changed the power settings on my ancient PC which means it's a bit sluggish sometimes but I think I've saved some electricity that way ...


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 26, 2022)

Christmas has pretty much destroyed my parsimonious consumption goals and due to having wife’s grandmother over tomorrow I’ve again whacked the thermostats even higher. Past few days have been getting thru 20-25kWh a day, most of which is heating 🔥


----------



## High Voltage (Dec 26, 2022)

I had a surprise Christmas e-mail from Bulb announcing that our usage for the month of December is 410kWh or £155.14 inc VAT

That's pretty much max usage with nothing switched off compared to summer, so oven used as and when needed, immersion heater to ensure we have "hot" hot water, the underfloor heating in the bathroom switched on by programme and a cats heat pad (she's getting on so we don't begrudge her this) - the "only" other thing that could use electricity is the dual fuel heated towel radiator in the bathroom, but that's not wired in yet so is only heating via the central heating

All things considered, I'll take that

And now that the Bulb / Octopus thing looks like it's been sorted out (I'm waiting until the web site is updated) I'll be looking to switch from variable DD to a DD, but the limit set by me, so that'll be £100 / month and if it starts to creep up I'll be looking for a refund, thangyewverymuchly


----------



## Supine (Dec 31, 2022)

Wish i hadn’t looked


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 31, 2022)

C'mon EDF. Hit me with the email informing of the rise. Still waiting. Get it over and done with.


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 4, 2023)

My third installment of Sunak Money was late, I didn't get it in December, since it's a paid a week after my DD is taken I would have expected it on the 29th Dec but it didn't come till today, Clearly British Gas's accounts dept shut down over the Xmas break


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 4, 2023)

‘It’s very tough’: UK castles, museums, theatres to close as energy prices hit
					

Rising costs have led to staff redundancies and curtailed opening hours as nine out of 10 sites fear they could close permanently




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Leafster (Monday at 9:36 AM)

I've just had my bills from Bulb for the month to 7th January   

Compared to the same period last year, the outside temperature was 2°C colder on average. Also, this year, it was below zero for 12% of the time compared to no temperatures recorded below zero last year. 

The good news is that I used 14% less electricity than last year even with some quick boosts from the fan heater. 

However, my gas use was only 1% less than last year. Still a reduction but even with the colder temperatures I was hoping for a bigger 'saving'. 

Roll on spring!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Monday at 10:07 AM)

Leafster said:


> I've just had my bills from Bulb for the month to 7th January
> 
> Compared to the same period last year, the outside temperature was 2°C colder on average. Also, this year, it was below zero for 12% of the time compared to no temperatures recorded below zero last year.
> 
> ...



My last bill was 21st Dec., so included that cold snap, I used £100.28 of gas, so £3.34 per day, if I exclude those seriously cold 10 days I was averaging just over £2.50pd, but during those 10 days it went up to over £4.50pd, which is a hell of a jump!

In the month of December my gas use was down just over 500kWh/about 35% compared to the year before, but that was basically down to the new boiler, not me, despite that saving, the actual cost almost doubled, which is the depressing part.

Thanks to the mild January so far, I am currently averaging just £2.25pd, long may that continue!

The overall target for the 6 months of Oct - Mar is to use 50% less this year, the new boiler delivering 35% and 15% from my own efforts, so a saving of £385, in the first 3 months I saved £206.50, so as long as we don't have too many seriously cold days, I should hit my target.


----------



## Ranbay (Monday at 10:09 AM)

Supine said:


> Wish i hadn’t looked
> 
> View attachment 357958



Thought mine was bad !!! £400 ish


----------



## moochedit (Monday at 10:15 AM)

MickiQ said:


> My third installment of Sunak Money was late, I didn't get it in December, since it's a paid a week after my DD is taken I would have expected it on the 29th Dec but it didn't come till today, Clearly British Gas's accounts dept shut down over the Xmas break


I think bank has to be told 2 working days in advance for bacs so with bank holidays that would be fri 23rd to pay on 29th. Guess they were in "christmas checkout" mode that day (i know i was to be fair  )


----------



## Leafster (Monday at 10:20 AM)

cupid_stunt said:


> My last bill was 21st Dec., so included that cold snap, I used £100.28 of gas, so £3.34 per day, if I exclude those seriously cold 10 days I was averaging just over £2.50pd, but during those 10 days it went up to over £4.50pd, which is a hell of a jump!
> 
> In the month of December my gas use was down just over 500kWh/about 35% compared to the year before, but that was basically down to the new boiler, not me, despite that saving, the actual cost almost doubled, which is the depressing part.
> 
> ...


I think our bungalows are roughly the same size (detached 2 bedrooms, 2 reception rooms, etc.?) but yours is much better insulated than mine. I think you're also happy with a lower ambient temperature than me. In the rooms where I sit (office - one of the bedrooms, dining room and lounge) I'm heating them to 20°C when I'm in them.

So, my daily cost for the month (takes deep breath) was £7.64!


----------



## Leafster (Monday at 10:23 AM)

Supine said:


> Wish i hadn’t looked
> 
> View attachment 357958





Ranbay said:


> Thought mine was bad !!! £400 ish


I don't feel quite so bad now as my combined cost (gas & electricity) was £330 for the month.


----------



## MickiQ (Monday at 10:28 AM)

Now that the Xmas Break is over I am back on the strict CH regime and after listening to Mrs Q repeating her warning about me not being allowed of the house wearing it I have got the Primark hoodie out of the wardrobe in case it is needed.
She has left for work with all the enthusiasm of a woman being dragged to the gallows. Youngest who will grace us with her presence for a futher week has emerged from her room in pyjamas, dressing gown and bedsocks to eat a bowl of cereal, drink a glass of orange juice and look out of the french doors muttering something unintelligble before disappearing back into her room, she hadn't even brushed her hair which is unusual to say the least. Like her mother she will moan but unlike her mother her opinion carries no weight.
According to ye smart meter, we've been ticking along at £10-11 per day over the Xmas break hitting up to £15 per day during the cold snap so that money now needs to be made up somewhere and I need to get back on the average of £6-7


----------



## Ranbay (Monday at 10:33 AM)

My smart meter and the app on my phone tell me different amounts used... it's well annoying.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Monday at 10:53 AM)

Leafster said:


> I think our bungalows are roughly the same size (detached 2 bedrooms, 2 reception rooms, etc.?) but yours is much better insulated than mine. I think you're also happy with a lower ambient temperature than me. In the rooms where I sit (office - one of the bedrooms, dining room and lounge) I'm heating them to 20°C when I'm in them.
> 
> So, my daily cost for the month (takes deep breath) was £7.64!



Yep, roughly the same size bungalows, walls & loft insulated plus double glazed, but 20c would be too much for me, currently I am waking up to 15c and I heat it to 18c in the mornings, it drops to 16c by the time I go to bed, which is fine.

During that cold snap, it would drop from 18c to 16c by late afternoon, so the place was getting another blast of heating to get it back to 18c, again dropping to 16c by bedtime.

My combined bill up to 21st Dec came to £144 up from just £60 in Nov.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Monday at 11:01 AM)

Ranbay said:


> My smart meter and the app on my phone tell me different amounts used... it's well annoying.



With OVO the smart meter displays costs inc. VAT, on their website it's ex-VAT on the 'your energy usage' graphs, with the VAT only added later, at the bottom of the bills.

The smart meter display also includes the standing charge, but for some reason the electric SC is already added when I get up, and the gas one isn't added until after I go to bed., so any time during the day when you look at the daily cost only the electric SC is included, which is annoying.


----------



## Leafster (Monday at 12:02 PM)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yep, roughly the same size bungalows, walls & loft insulated plus double glazed, but 20c would be too much for me, currently I am waking up to 15c and I heat it to 18c in the mornings, it drops to 16c by the time I go to bed, which is fine.
> 
> During that cold snap, it would drop from 18c to 16c by late afternoon, so the place was getting another blast of heating to get it back to 18c, again dropping to 16c by bedtime.
> 
> My combined bill up to 21st Dec came to £144 up from just £60 in Nov.


No cavity wall insulation in my place and the loft isn't consistently insulated. I have mostly double-glazed but some triple-glazed windows and doors. 

It gets tricky with further comparisons as I don't heat the whole house up at the same time or to the same temperature - some are set to 18°C and others 20°C. The zoned system means that there's a potential heating requirement from 6:30 through to 21:00 but that could be just one room or a maximum of four (the whole house is never heated at any one time). Whether the boiler actually fires up when a room is active depends on the actual temperature in that room at that time. So, at the moment, the only room which I need to be heated is the office and that is set to 20°C. The boiler has been working intermittently to keep it at that temperature throughout this morning.


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## gentlegreen (Wednesday at 9:52 AM)

Bulb seem to be getting the hang of it and have allowed me to reduce my monthly payment to £19.81 so I should have clawed-back most of the surplus by the summer.

I feel inclined to have a bath this month, so in the absence of another crazy cold snap, my usage should average 3.5kwh - or 111 kwh for the month. At the moment I'm averaging 3kwh which includes 0.5kwh for heating my feet and bed.

I've started using a microwave, so I will need to deploy the meter to see if it's saving electricity - and also do a pot of stew on the open hob on a cold day. It takes ages to cook - even with a folded towel on top. In the future I will definitely be looking into hay boxes and insulation generally.
But we're talking about a total of under 0.5kwh or 16p a day.
My greatest use of energy is still my PC by a long way.

I'm going to have a dilemma when it comes to seed-sowing time, but I plan to set it up in front of the window this time so I can use less light, and put it on a timer.
My gardening is going to be on a smaller scale this year with a greater focus on growing food.

I was chatting to someone in Siberia the other day who said they fully expect to wear just a tee shirt in winter and was surprised that I was content with 13C indoors.


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## skyscraper101 (Wednesday at 12:51 PM)

I wish Shell energy would get a move on with issuing the bill, I submitted meter readings on the 3rd, the bill issue date is usually marked as the "8th" but here we are on the 11th and I'm still waiting for it to appear in my account.


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## og ogilby (Wednesday at 12:56 PM)

skyscraper101 said:


> I wish Shell energy would get a move on with issuing the bill, I submitted meter readings on the 3rd, the bill issue date is usually marked as the "8th" but here we are on the 11th and I'm still waiting for it to appear in my account.


I'm still waiting for my shell bill too. They have made an almighty cock up with my billing going back 2 years and I'm waiting to see if they have sorted it out.


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## two sheds (Thursday at 12:18 AM)

Well I got the infra-red thermometer and it gave me some interesting results. Measurements taken with outside night time temperature about 6-8 C, so not during the cold snap.

I’ve lit the Rayburn with a couple of buckets of wood when it gets dark, so around 20 kWh over the evening. That bangs out the heat nicely into the kitchen and so some upstairs where I am of an evening, plus to four radiators which don’t get hugely hot but do take the chill off rooms.

I’ve used a fan heater upstairs for a couple of hours (so about 3 kWh) which gave me an air temperature of 15 C which is quite warm enough for me. Ceiling temperature was 16.5 (so loft insulation clearly working), wall temperatures 15.5 (so Sempatap insulating wallpaper doing quite well too), secondary glazed window temperature 14 but heavy curtains 16.5.

I didn’t really check the downstairs temperature but it was bloody cold down there in the cold snap. So am now wondering about extra insulation. I do wonder whether to insulate a couple of internal walls - I've assumed they absorb heat only to release it again, but also wonder whether that temperature release is during the night when I'm tucked up in bed.

It will take loads of measurements to get a real picture of the house. An imager would be better to show cold spots, although I did check a couple I was suspicious of and they seemed fine. Still must check the roof temperature during a cold snap though.


----------



## CH1 (Thursday at 11:31 AM)

For all Shell customers and those who can heat their houses on one 40w light bulb, here are my Shell gas stats for December 2020. December 2021 and December 2022. [December only! - gas only, electricity brings the total December bill to £507.98
The odd thing is the meter readings are roughly the same each year even though I turned the thermostat down from 20.5° to 20° this autumn (meaning room temperatures are around 19° in practice).





I have been thinking of downsizing - and getting rid of the responsibility of repairing washing machines, gutters etc, but at prices like these (at Tonic Bankside, specialising in old queens like myself) fuel prices would have to escalate even further to make me seriously consider exchanging being ripped off by Shell and Putin rather than Delauncey/Peabody etc.


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## MickiQ (Thursday at 11:42 AM)

CH1 said:


> For all Shell customers and those who can heat their houses on one 40w light bulb, here are my Shell gas stats for December 2020. December 2021 and December 2022. [December only! - gas only, electricity brings the total December bill to £507.98
> The odd thing is the meter readings are roughly the same each year even though I turned the thermostat down from 20.5° to 20° this autumn (meaning room temperatures are around 19° in practice).
> 
> 
> ...


_Somebody _is going to to rip you off, you just get to choose who.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Thursday at 12:12 PM)

CH1 said:


> The odd thing is the meter readings are roughly the same each year even though I turned the thermostat down from 20.5° to 20° this autumn (meaning room temperatures are around 19° in practice).



That would be down to the system working harder to maintain temperatures during that lengthy cold snap, which was exceptional for December.

My average daily gas use went up 80% during that 10-day period, compared to the average for the rest of month.


----------



## CH1 (Thursday at 1:49 PM)

This is all over the news today, but was fully covered in  the i yesterday.
Batch approval of meter changes by magistrates sounds a terrible idea - rather like the American system of "foreclosure" where people get chucked out of their  homes for missing a mortgage payment.
How did we come to this?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Thursday at 1:57 PM)

CH1 said:


> The odd thing is the meter readings are roughly the same each year even though I turned the thermostat down from 20.5° to 20° this autumn (meaning room temperatures are around 19° in practice).



Does your thermostat ever actually hit that point? It will only make a difference in that it will turn the system off sooner when it hits that point. Ours never gets to 20 in winter (at least at the place where the thermostat is) so for us that change wouldn't actually make any difference, might be yours is the same.


----------



## CH1 (Thursday at 2:35 PM)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Does your thermostat ever actually hit that point? It will only make a difference in that it will turn the system off sooner when it hits that point. Ours never gets to 20 in winter (at least at the place where the thermostat is) so for us that change wouldn't actually make any difference, might be yours is the same.


Yes - it goes on and off like a yoyo. The boiler seems to be well adapted to this mode - according to the read-out on the boiler the radiators are commonly running at 30-40°C.  Which I understood was the efficient way to run them. That is to say not running the radiators at 60-70°C then cutting out for an hour or two, then ramping up again.
But I'm sure someone on here will correct me.

PS before people start on about single bulbs etc this house is 1867 built (approx) three bricks thick walls at semi-basement level, two above. Roof insulated and fully double glazed. But can't obviously do anything about cavity walls as these are solid.


----------



## muscovyduck (Thursday at 4:23 PM)

CH1 said:


> This is all over the news today, but was fully covered in  the i yesterday.
> Batch approval of meter changes by magistrates sounds a terrible idea - rather like the American system of "foreclosure" where people get chucked out of their  homes for missing a mortgage payment.
> How did we come to this?
> View attachment 359188


Had to help someone who nearly got caught out by this over the winter. All utilities will pile on when someone dies and try and convince the estate to hand over money they don't owe. Energy companies will also send letters to the wrong address and sue former dead residents rather than the current owner/occupier to gain access to the house. They know exactly what they're doing.


----------



## cesare (Thursday at 5:18 PM)

muscovyduck said:


> Had to help someone who nearly got caught out by this over the winter. All utilities will pile on when someone dies and try and convince the estate to hand over money they don't owe. Energy companies will also send letters to the wrong address and sue former dead residents rather than the current owner/occupier to gain access to the house. They know exactly what they're doing.


I'm having a terrible time with BG over my mother's estate atm. It's been so difficult that I took the route of letting the dispute go to BG's debt collectors specialising in accounts where the customer is deceased. Unlike BG, this agency had a very easy method of getting hold of them and sending them the meter readings that prove BG owe the estate money, not the other way round. Contrast this with that I sent BG an online customer complaint last weekend and they still haven't got back to me.  The subsequent problems have affected our own account where they started our readings from the vastly overestimated readings of my mother's account and refuse to accept my meter readings now, and instead are vastly estimating ours .

I was present and witnessed the final readings, before the estate closed the account. The meters were also read again just after we moved in.  Yet BG is working to its own estimates. It's so stressful and infuriating.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Thursday at 5:26 PM)

cesare said:


> I'm having a terrible time with BG over my mother's estate atm. It's been so difficult that I took the route of letting the dispute go to BG's debt collectors specialising in accounts where the customer is deceased. Unlike BG, this agency had a very easy method of getting hold of them and sending them the meter readings that prove BG owe the estate money, not the other way round. Contrast this with that I sent BG an online customer complaint last weekend and they still haven't got back to me.  The subsequent problems have affected our own account where they started our readings from the vastly overestimated readings of my mother's account and refuse to accept my meter readings now, and instead are vastly estimating ours .
> 
> I was present and witnessed the final readings, before the estate closed the account. The meters were also read again just after we moved in.  Yet BG is working to its own estimates. It's so stressful and infuriating.



Sounds like the situation I had with OVO, only resolved thanks to the energy ombudsman getting me a £495 refund plus a goodwill payment of £150


----------



## cesare (Thursday at 5:32 PM)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sounds like the situation I had with OVO, only resolved thanks to the energy ombudsman getting me a £495 refund plus a goodwill payment of £150


Aye. I've found it difficult to deal with because it's tied up with bereavement of course. But getting the debt collector's letter was the final straw in getting BG to sort out its failures. So I've sent the debt collector loads of meter reading photos and info on the gas side. I'm now leaving it for a few days and then doing the same on the electricity. I'm also going to ask the debt collectors to sort it out for our own account which BG's mistake has had on us personally. Then I'm going to the ombudsman as you did.


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## purenarcotic (Thursday at 5:59 PM)

Apologies if this has been discussed, but they keep talking about ‘average use’ or a ‘typical’ household, but what does that mean in reality? Two adults in the house, heating on around 4 hours a day, more when it’s particularly cold, try and keep lights off in rooms that aren’t currently in use, wash everything on a cool setting (probably three washes a week, sometimes more, sometimes less) etc… is that typical use?! I’ve been signed off sick since November 14th so the TV has been on more than usual. It just feels like a really unhelpful sound bite.


----------



## prunus (Thursday at 6:03 PM)

purenarcotic said:


> Apologies if this has been discussed, but they keep talking about ‘average use’ or a ‘typical’ household, but what does that mean in reality? Two adults in the house, heating on around 4 hours a day, more when it’s particularly cold, try and keep lights off in rooms that aren’t currently in use, wash everything on a cool setting (probably three washes a week, sometimes more, sometimes less) etc… is that typical use?! I’ve been signed off sick since November 14th so the TV has been on more than usual. It just feels like a really unhelpful sound bite.



I think it’s based on this usage:

Ofgem estimates the typical household in Britain uses *2,900 kWh of electricity and 12,000 kWh of gas* in a year.









						Average gas and electricity use explained
					

Ofgem calculates Typical Domestic Consumption Values for gas and electricity to give consumers an idea of how much energy they might expect to use in a year.




					www.ofgem.gov.uk


----------



## Leafster (Thursday at 6:06 PM)

purenarcotic said:


> Apologies if this has been discussed, but they keep talking about ‘average use’ or a ‘typical’ household, but what does that mean in reality? Two adults in the house, heating on around 4 hours a day, more when it’s particularly cold, try and keep lights off in rooms that aren’t currently in use, wash everything on a cool setting (probably three washes a week, sometimes more, sometimes less) etc… is that typical use?! I’ve been signed off sick since November 14th so the TV has been on more than usual. It just feels like a really unhelpful sound bite.


Here's the Ofgem page on average use if that helps.









						Average gas and electricity use explained
					

Ofgem calculates Typical Domestic Consumption Values for gas and electricity to give consumers an idea of how much energy they might expect to use in a year.




					www.ofgem.gov.uk
				




ETA: Or what prunus has already said!


----------



## Leafster (Thursday at 6:12 PM)

Also, your bills should include a section on estimated annual usage for your account so that would be a way to compare if you're the average household. 

My estimated electricity usage is below 2900 kWh per year by about 4% but my gas usage is above 12,000 kWh by about 6% (according to my recent bill)


----------



## WWWeed (Thursday at 10:45 PM)

I've just read a really good article on why costs are not coming down that much despite using more wind power. Apparently The UK is wasting a lot of wind power



> On the windiest days, we deliberately capped the amount of power our turbines were producing, reducing the total amount generated by 6%. In fact, it’s worse than that: not only did we turn off our turbines, but we _pa_id the owners of windfarms to turn them off. This is called curtailment.
> 
> In 2022, a year characterized by extraordinary hikes in energy prices for consumers, we spent £215m on turning windfarms _off,_ and then another £717m turning on gas power plants to replace the lost wind power. In the process, we emitted an extra 1.5 million tonnes of CO2.





> Most windfarms are either in Scotland, or in the sea. That’s because:
> 
> 
> England banned the construction of windfarms onshore in 2015 (a move which looks likely to be reversed)
> ...





> This poses a problem, because moving electricity long distances is expensive. You need big cables, which are serious bits of kit – the last large one we put in cost £1.2 bn. At times, we just have more windpower than we have cables to transmit it. The particular hotspot for this problem is the B6 boundary: the bottleneck for electricity from Scotland to flow to England.
> 
> When we’re generating more windpower than we can transmit, the National Grid pays the windfarms to turn off, and pays a (typically gas powered) alternative generator, closer to the demand, to turn on. Consumers end up effectively paying _three_ times for the power they’re getting: the original payment to the windfarm for the electricity, the payment to turn off, and then the payment to the alternative generator.





> At times the UK was wasting as much wind power as we were using.
> 
> On Christmas day, we spent £9.2m on curtailment costs, curtailing a total of 76.18 GWh. That’s enough electricity to power ~11’000 households for a year.





> Electricity prices – which are the main way that incentives are communicated to market participants – _are completely location independent _in the UK_. _This means that a generator with a wind farm on the Outer Hebrides can sell a MWh to an electricity supplier with customers in Surrey, and neither of them has to worry about how the energy gets from point A to point B 3. Conversely, a wind turbine in Surrey sees _no price benefit_ from selling its MWh to a customer next door, despite the obvious efficiency benefits.
> 
> If generators and consumers aren’t worrying about where energy is flowing from and to, who is? The messy, geographically nuanced reality of ensuring enough electrons are flowing to each consumer becomes the problem of the National Grid Energy System Operator (NGESO), who have the final responsibility for keeping the lights on.



It's another example of another massive government failure and that's before you even get into the supplier company mess.

As with many of the challenges this country faces I can't see this going away anytime soon.


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## WWWeed (Thursday at 10:54 PM)

Leafster said:


> Also, your bills should include a section on estimated annual usage for your account so that would be a way to compare if you're the average household.
> 
> My estimated electricity usage is below 2900 kWh per year by about 4% but my gas usage is above 12,000 kWh by about 6% (according to my recent bill)


This estimate should be based on historical usage data which isn't always shared if you have switched between companies (either voluntarily or as a result of being moved to a supplier of last resort). 

Also it seems to get messed up for various reasons (crap system calculations, bad data sampling, revoked/reissued bills, etc) so I would treat it as a very rough estimation. It's better than nothing but not much.


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## alex_ (Thursday at 10:54 PM)

WWWeed said:


> I've just read a really good article on why costs are not coming down that much despite using more wind power. Apparently The UK is wasting a lot of wind power
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This problem will have been completely obvious up front


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## CH1 (Thursday at 11:29 PM)

alex_ said:


> This problem will have been completely obvious up front


But not presumably price critical 10 years ago, or whenever the contracts were drawn up.
This is what happens when the country is run by accountants and lawyers rather than engineers!


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## WouldBe (Thursday at 11:36 PM)

CH1 said:


> But not presumably price critical 10 years ago, or whenever the contracts were drawn up.
> This is what happens when the country is run by accountants and lawyers rather than engineers!


There might be more wind turbines in Scotland but there are large wind farms off Northumberland, Yorkshire, Lincolnshire?, Norfolk and lots of other places.


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## CH1 (Thursday at 11:47 PM)

WouldBe said:


> There might be more wind turbines in Scotland but there are large wind farms off Northumberland, Yorkshire, Lincolnshire?, Norfolk and lots of other places.


And the point is? I though the OP was saying that it had been thought cheaper in lower cost years when the turbines were installed to have them switched off at times of peak demand to avoid having to increase the capacity of the Nation Grid distribution network (ie installing more pylons and distribution cables)
Or were we reading different articles?


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## alex_ (Yesterday at 9:19 AM)

CH1 said:


> But not presumably price critical 10 years ago, or whenever the contracts were drawn up.
> This is what happens when the country is run by accountants and lawyers rather than engineers!



Lawyers and accountants value future risks though, and you don’t spend billions on a wind farm without knowing exactly what the wind is like there.

This is a massive failure by ofgem.

This is being paid because it’s in the contract so people knew this could happen, but either no one forecast how likely it was or didn’t do anything about it.

For ref that article says that this increased electricity prices by 1bn gbp in 2022, the fix costs 3.2bn gbp and the problem is going to get worse as more Scottish wind farms are being built.


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## teuchter (Yesterday at 4:56 PM)

The article does also point out though, these incentives (via the contracts) are probably part of what has helped the amount of wind power in Scotland to increase so rapidly, and in the longer term that's a good thing, because even if the transmission infrastructure isn't keeping up with it right now, it can be built.


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