# James Gandolfini dead at 51



## Maltin (Jun 20, 2013)

Pretty shocking news. Died of a stroke apparently [ETA - sources are now saying a heart attack].

http://variety.com/2013/more/news/j...m_medium=email&utm_campaign=breakingnewsalert



http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/sopranos-star-james-gandolfini-dies-571859


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## TruXta (Jun 20, 2013)

Just watching Sopranos earlier


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## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

sad. The man wasn't ashamed of the buffet though, he was one of my 'HBO guts' choices. A list that exists only in my head.

Did a solid turn in 'Killing them Softly' recently. Good actor.


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 20, 2013)

Holy shit.

Saw a gag on Family Guy last night about him ignoring his home gym, rather unfortunate timing 

Real shame, was always good in stuff.


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## Gingerman (Jun 20, 2013)

RIP James Gandolfini, he was a brilliant actor who was the perfect fit for the role of Tony Soprano


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## abe11825 (Jun 20, 2013)

Holy fuck... I told me mum, and she said "cos his weight, innit... too fat". 

She liked the Sopranos, too


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## Nine Bob Note (Jun 20, 2013)

That's shit. I don't like any of the characters on the Sopranos, but enjoyed seeing him as himself.


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## Fez909 (Jun 20, 2013)

Wow, that's no age.


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## Frankie Jack (Jun 20, 2013)




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## DexterTCN (Jun 20, 2013)

51 fuckin hell, I'm near that.   He played his parts really well.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 20, 2013)

51 is no age


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## poului (Jun 20, 2013)

Really felt there were plenty more great performances left in him. Such a loss.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

[quote="poului, post: 12331056, member: 539"*]Really felt there were plenty more great performances left in him.* Such a loss.[/quote]

good say. I've no love for the man although he seemed a decent fellow and leaves behind etc. But you just know the man had some good turns left to do.


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## Maltin (Jun 20, 2013)

Just seen a post on Twitter about other 51 year olds




			
				JigsawLounge said:
			
		

> putting it into context, James Gandolfini (51) was the same age as Ralph Macchio, Barack Obama and Ricky Gervais, younger than Vincent Gallo






			
				allanholloway said:
			
		

> Younger than Michael J.Fox, George Clooney, Eddie Murphy and Forrest Whitaker all born in the same year (1961).



I can't believe that Ralph Macchio is 51


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## Fez909 (Jun 20, 2013)

Maltin said:


> I can't believe that Ralph Macchio is 51


 
Wow!

Read the other day that Gene Wilder is 80. That was a bit surprising.


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## Maltin (Jun 20, 2013)

Some Gandolfini clips. 

http://moviecitynews.com/2013/06/hold-hold-cut-to-black/


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## Favelado (Jun 20, 2013)

Ah James. That's horrible. Rest In Peace boss. People will still talk about your performance in The Sopranos in 30 years' time or more.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Wow!
> 
> Read the other day that Gene Wilder is 80. That was a bit surprising.


 

He cant die till Hackman does. They are linked by whitefro


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## skyscraper101 (Jun 20, 2013)

51. Fucking hell


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## kittyP (Jun 20, 2013)

RIP. Very sad. Great actor


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## Ponyutd (Jun 20, 2013)

What ya gonna do.


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## albionism (Jun 20, 2013)

Sad news. Way young   The Sopranos is one of my all time favourite tv shows.


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## Balbi (Jun 20, 2013)

Maltin said:


> Some Gandolfini clips.
> 
> http://moviecitynews.com/2013/06/hold-hold-cut-to-black/


 


His eyebrow wrinkle at the end, has me in stitches every time.


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## danny la rouge (Jun 20, 2013)

Shocking news. He was a great actor. I loved the Sopranos. One of the best shows ever made. And a lot of its class was due to Gandolfini. RIP.


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## spanglechick (Jun 20, 2013)

he had a new baby last october, and a teenage son. his poor family.


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## DJ Squelch (Jun 20, 2013)

Gutted to hear this


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## Ranbay (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 20, 2013)

RIP JG! The Sopranos was central in the creation of modern, intelligent Television and your gigantic performance across 86 episodes was equal to any of the 70s masterclass of DeNiro, Pacino etc.

I'm really sad to hear this. The Sopranos is my favorite ever show! It will be seen for decades to come.


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## Biddlybee (Jun 20, 2013)




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## Dan U (Jun 20, 2013)

Such a shame. RIP


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## Voley (Jun 20, 2013)

Aw that's really sad.

I absolutely love The Sopranos, it's the best TV series I've ever seen, and a lot of it was due to the way he portrayed such a great, flawed character. I loved the way he could lurch from being utterly ruthless to a weird kind of tender within a few scenes. He'd be riddled with self-doubt and then back to putting the fear of God into all of his crew all in one episode. Bit of a cliche to say it was a role he was born to play but I couldn't really think of him as anyone else other Tony Soprano when I saw him in other films.

Very sad. RIP James. You were fucking great.


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## ruffneck23 (Jun 20, 2013)

R.I.P


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## marty21 (Jun 20, 2013)

Shocker! Only a few years older than me  as well -  RIP


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## Schmetterling (Jun 20, 2013)

Well; that puts the kibosh on there every being another series.

Unless they make a film about the fishes...

Sad.  Fancied Tony Soprano and him quite a lot.


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## Grandma Death (Jun 20, 2013)

Terrible news. I've seen the entire series 5 times and I loved the show. He was The Sopranos. I thought as an actor he was immense and the scene where he's sat down talking to Patricia Arquette in True Romance in between attacking her and he's talking about his first kill is superb. I knew when I first saw him in that he'd be huge. The Sopranos became that first must see series and changed the way we watch TV. RIP


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## Grandma Death (Jun 20, 2013)




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## friedaweed (Jun 20, 2013)

Only this morning I was shouting up the stairs to my kids
"You need to wake up and smell the Caravaggio you shmucks" 

Sad day


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 20, 2013)

Was about to get a lifetime achievement award at a film fest in Sicily this week!


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)




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## mack (Jun 20, 2013)

Such a great actor, was just thinking it's been a while since I watched the Sopranos. RIP big man.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2013)

RIP 

very sad, great actor and by all a/cs top bloke.


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## craigxcraig (Jun 20, 2013)

Really sad news - I'm currently watching the whole series again (even better second time around) and really gutted at this news.


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## Pingu (Jun 20, 2013)

only really saw him in the sopranos but really enjoyed that.


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## pissflaps (Jun 20, 2013)

he looks so different without his white beard and wizard's hat.

RIP magic man.


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## youngian (Jun 20, 2013)

Very sad news, he deserved the role of a lifetime that changed the face of American television. Even in a cameo I paid attention to a film if he was in it.


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## wayward bob (Jun 20, 2013)

ah no


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## phildwyer (Jun 20, 2013)

Now we'll never find out what happened.


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## sorearm (Jun 20, 2013)




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## SpookyFrank (Jun 20, 2013)

youngian said:


> Even in a cameo I paid attention to a film if he was in it.


 
My thoughts exactly. I loved his character in In The Loop as well.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jun 20, 2013)

Never watched the Sopranos. I liked him in in the loop though.
50 is no age to die at. Sad.


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## pissflaps (Jun 20, 2013)

on the radio this morning that had some 'expert' pontificating about how we should all lose weight and not be fat, because it was his obesity that killed him. Stay classy, BBC London.


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## Reno (Jun 20, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> Now we'll never find out what happened.


 

Much as I loved the series, I don't think there should be more Sopranos. I thought it ended on a perfect note, one which was meant to stay unresolved and these type of reunions or revivals are never as good as they were the first time round (Arrested Development, Futurama)

He'd become a very prolific character actor since the series, mostly in worthwhile films and that's a real loss.

He's only a couple of years older than me.


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## QueenOfGoths (Jun 20, 2013)

RIP. I never watched The Sopranos but know how well received it was and saw him in other things. I believe he had quite a young family. So sad


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## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

We just started series 5, it really feels like Tony has died for real. Once we finish The Sopranos we are going to throw the television away  Nothing else will come close to it. I think it helps that I'm the same age as he is (in last series he was 42), it's so well written and real.

RIP James Gandolfini & Tony Soprano (I assume he don't die on series 6, if he does keep quiet!)


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## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

RIP big fella - I recently played the whole box set for the fella and he absolutely loved it, as I thought he might


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## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> on the radio this morning that had some 'expert' pontificating about how we should all lose weight and not be fat, because it was his obesity that killed him. Stay classy, BBC London.


 
I thought it was his heart, not his obesity...   I must say I did think 'lifestyle heart attack', and it probably was...  But yeah, not the time to state the obvious or get all preachy.


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## pissflaps (Jun 20, 2013)

coulda been the vast amount of blow and strippers he was doing at the time, no one knows for sure.


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## Ranbay (Jun 20, 2013)

He loved the gak.


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## pissflaps (Jun 20, 2013)

who doesn't!


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## Remus Harbank (Jun 20, 2013)

The best Jersey Boy there was. RIP.


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## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> Fancied Tony Soprano and him quite a lot.


 
I think an awful lot of people did.  Even me and my lass fessed up that there was just something massively attractive about him.


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## RaverDrew (Jun 20, 2013)

"You got a lot of heart, kid"


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## Riklet (Jun 20, 2013)

shit, sad news.  RIP.  some quality acting he'll be remembered by.


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## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

sojourner said:


> I think an awful lot of people did. Even me and my lass fessed up that there was just something massively attractive about him.


 
Tony Soprano is a somewhat likeable, but mostly a despicable arsehole of a man, coincidentally we were watching episode 1 of series 5 last night (He tries to have a relationship with his psychiatrist, now him and Carmela are separated). I could never understand how so many women were attracted to him though, power thing I guess. Never saw it myself. Personally I did find him attractive as a father figure for some reason, I'd have liked a dad like him!


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## pennimania (Jun 20, 2013)

RIP


I adored him 

And yes, he was gorgeous.


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## Reno (Jun 20, 2013)

girasol said:


> Tony Soprano is a somewhat likeable, but mostly a despicable arsehole of a man, coincidentally we were watching episode 1 of series 5 last night (He tries to have a relationship with his psychiatrist, now him and Carmela are separated). I could never understand how so many women were attracted to him though, power thing I guess. Never saw it myself. Personally I did find him attractive as a father figure for some reason, I'd have liked a dad like him!


 
Some women (and gay men, he's a bit of a "bear" pin-up) are attracted to Gandolfini whose death the thread is about, not necessary to Tony Soprano.


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## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

Reno said:


> Some women (and gay men, he's a bit of a "bear" pin-up) are attracted to Gandolfini whose death the thread is about, not necessary to Tony Soprano.


 
The post I quoted where people said they were attracted to 'him' *was* about Tony Soprano... And him I guess, now I read it properly... 

I can imagine the man himself as being adorable, interesting, having read some of his biographies today it seems he wasn't too far from his character in some aspects (being Italian, being an angry man, beating people up)


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## Reno (Jun 20, 2013)

girasol said:


> The post I quoted where people said they were attracted to 'him' *was* about Tony Soprano.


 

OK, I suppose it could come in handy to have another half who bumps off the people that cross you.


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## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

I typed more stuff in while you were replying


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

Tony Soprano as a character was a murderous bullying sociopath. 

The audience goes through the same process as Jennifer Melfi, of being taken in by his charm. 

There is a similar effect when reading Lolita by Nabakov. 

As somebody said above, I find it kind of horrifying that so many women admit to finding him attractive, and so much of the audience find him so sympathetic. I think that says something very dark about humanity. 

It was perfectly played by James Gandolfini. I kind of can't believe that he is actually dead.


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## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

girasol said:


> Tony Soprano is a somewhat likeable, but mostly a despicable arsehole of a man, coincidentally we were watching episode 1 of series 5 last night (He tries to have a relationship with his psychiatrist, now him and Carmela are separated). I could never understand how so many women were attracted to him though, power thing I guess. Never saw it myself. Personally I did find him attractive as a father figure for some reason, I'd have liked a dad like him!


 
Well yes, he's all that, which is what makes the attraction so fucking weird tbh.  He was an ANIMAL. But I think that had an awful lot to do with it.  So massive, with such huge appetites. Like some kind of huge gorilla or something.

I know - weird, I don't get it meself but there y'are   As you know, my lass is gay, and I am/was (the fella's a total exception hehe)


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## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> There is a similar effect when reading Lolita by Nabakov.
> 
> As somebody said above, I find it kind of horrifying that so many women admit to finding him attractive, and so much of the audience find him so sympathetic. I think that says something very dark about humanity.


 
Spot on with the Lolita comparison mate.  

It took me ages to actually admit to myself that I was attracted to him. But then, you'd find yourself hating him, being repulsed by him...and then fancying him again    I don't DO men, I don't do violent men - but JG/TS had HUGE charisma.


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## Reno (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> Tony Soprano as a character was a murderous bullying sociopath.
> 
> The audience goes through the same process as Jennifer Melfi, of being taken in by his charm.
> 
> ...


 

What goes on in people's fantasy life is not the same as wanting something to happen or wanting someone for real. Rape fantasies are very common, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of people who have them really want to rape or get raped.


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## pissflaps (Jun 20, 2013)

^ NOW you tell me!

#awkward


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

sojourner said:


> Spot on with the Lolita comparison mate.
> 
> It took me ages to actually admit to myself that I was attracted to him. But then, you'd find yourself hating him, being repulsed by him...and then fancying him again  I don't DO men, I don't do violent men - but JG/TS had HUGE charisma.


 

That's why it is _so _dark. 

Look at the way he treats all the little people. There was a cop who gave him a parking ticket. He tries to bribe him, and when he wouldn't accept it, got him fired. To make an example. He smashes that bloke who works at the strip clubs face in because he was angry, and the bloke loses an eye. And then everyone else. He corrupts a state senator and then whips him with his belt because he is going out with his ex girlfriend. He destroys the life of that gambling addict who owns the camping store, because that is what he does for a living. There are loads and loads of examples of really really horrible behaviour. And that's before you even get to things like the people he murders. Chopping up Ralphie Cifaretto in a bathtup. Breaking Chris Moltisantis neck. 

Yet the audience empathizes with him, they don't want him to die or go to prison. In quite a few of those scenes, we empathize with _him_ rather than his victims. We identify with his values and start thinking that the way he is behaving is acceptable, at least in his world. 

In real life this is exactly the kind of person you would want to be locked up forever. Yet we as the audience are taken in by his charm, his vulnerability, which only allows him to carry on doing awful things.

The scenes with Jennifer Melfi are the most powerful because she represents us, the viewer, and what is happening to us throughout the program. 

Honestly, I find it proper horrifying.


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

Reno said:


> What goes on in people's fantasy life is not the same as wanting something to happen or wanting someone for real. Rape fantasies are very common, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of people who have them really want to rape or get raped.


 

I appreciate that. I am just making a point about the effect the show has on its audience and what it might say about us, the viewer. I think it is a lot darker than many people really appreciate. And it is pretty dark to begin with.


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## Schmetterling (Jun 20, 2013)

Isn't it the times he is nice that we like/fancy him?

I get posters' points; I absolutely detest when women when they say they always go 'for the bad guy'.  Because, if they do, how stupid can one be?  And if they just say it because they think it sounds dramatic then fuck off.

Trust me; I did not fancy his nylon socks.


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## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Reno said:


> What goes on in people's fantasy life is not the same as wanting something to happen or wanting someone for real. Rape fantasies are very common, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of people who have them really want to rape or get raped.


 
Very well articulated Reno - I was struggling to get across what I meant (for a change!)


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## Reno (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I appreciate that. I am just making a point about the effect the show has on its audience and what it might say about us, the viewer. I think it is a lot darker than many people really appreciate. And it is pretty dark to begin with.


 

Tony Soprano was an anti-hero. The point is that we identify with him to an extend, but I stopped identifying every time he did something horrendous. The tension that creates is the point and I did identify with the victims more than with him at that point, unless the victims were assholes who had it coming.

Much of the point of fiction is that we can live out out darker impulses vicariously through characters like that and is is something completely different from wanting to do that in real life. Most people have a good handle on what is fiction and what is real.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> That's why it is _so _dark.
> 
> Look at the way he treats all the little people. There was a cop who gave him a parking ticket. He tries to bribe him, and when he wouldn't accept it, got him fired. To make an example. He smashes that bloke who works at the strip clubs face in because he was angry, and the bloke loses an eye. And then everyone else. He corrupts a state senator and then whips him with his belt because he is going out with his ex girlfriend. He destroys the life of that gambling addict who owns the camping store, because that is what he does for a living. There are loads and loads of examples of really really horrible behaviour. And that's before you even get to things like the people he murders. Chopping up Ralphie Cifaretto in a bathtup. Breaking Chris Moltisantis neck.
> 
> ...


 
its because secretly there is a gratifying feeling when viewing a monster like that who isn't out for immediate thrills but rather his violence always has a purpose. I'd have snapped half a dozen necks this morning, starting with mr 'ten lottery tickets, all different numbers' Mgee in the queue at the shop.

His softer side just serves to make you like him more. Never sadism or evilfor evils sake. For money and family and the name. Still horrific in examination but on a snap-level?

its why Falling Down is good.


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## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I appreciate that. I am just making a point about the effect the show has on its audience and what it might say about us, the viewer. I think it is a lot darker than many people really appreciate. And it is pretty dark to begin with.


 
I actually think most women don't go for the 'bad guy', they go for the strong guy, or the assertive guy, or the charismatic guy (same for men) - unfortunately these often intersect with 'bad guy' material.

Most grown up people are truly put off by 'bad humans' and step away once they see someone's true character as such, it's just that it can take a little time to figure this out. The older one gets the quicker we can work these out.

The beauty (and the disturbing thing) about The Sopranos was just that. It made us see bad people in a different light, and realize they are only human. But is it any wonder the most sympathetic (and IMO, likeable) characters are the psychiatrist (i.e. as someone said, representing us, the audience) and Carmela, who has a kind heart and is a decent person, and I think she also represents the audience to an extent. So, when push comes to shove, I think most of us does have strong feelings against violence and what Tony does, but we often get distracted by charm and charisma (and tits and laughs)


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## Santino (Jun 20, 2013)

Carmela is not a decent person.


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> its because secretly there is a gratifying feeling when viewing a monster like that who isn't out for immediate thrills but rather his violence always has a purpose. I'd have snapped half a dozen necks this morning, starting with mr 'ten lottery tickets, all different numbers' Mgee in the queue at the shop.
> 
> His softer side just serves to make you like him more. Never sadism or evilfor evils sake. For money and family and the name. Still horrific in examination but on a snap-level?
> 
> its why Falling Down is good.


 

I don't see his character like that at all. 

Bear in mind that he initially agrees to see a psychiatrist because he is having panic attacks. He does not like the idea of seeing a psychiatrist.

By the final episode, a fellow psychiatrist mentions to Jennifer Melfi of a study that claims sociopaths take advantage of talk therapy to become better criminals. 

And this is the entire process he has been going through. He has not gained any real insight into his actions. He has used therapy and his insight into his own vulnerabilities to become a better criminal, not a better person. 

We are offered all these justifications for the violence and corruption that he carries out. I don't believe in his softer side. I can think of very very few instances in the entire six series where his softer side doesn't have some ulterior, and often violent or manipulative, motive. 

He loves the thrills of violence. That is what he lives for. Having a family or whatever is just what is expected of him. He isn't that interested in them. It bores him.


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

Santino said:


> Carmela is not a decent person.


 

She really isn't. She is complicit in almost all of it.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

yes, she knows where the money comes from and how.

I wonder how many real life mafia wives do that- 'he's earning, my kids have the best of everything'


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> yes, she knows where the money comes from and how.
> 
> I wonder how many real life mafia wives do that- 'he's earning, my kids have the best of everything'


 

Reno mentioned that this is just fantasy, and that most people can recognize the difference between fantasy and reality.

But what we have to bear in mind is that these things happen _in real life. _And this is how they happen. The wives make their own justifications because they are looked after. Other people around them make their own justifications for their behavior. etc etc.


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## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> She really isn't. She is complicit in almost all of it.


 
And would be committing adultery just the same as Tony if all her fellas weren't so fucking terrified of Tony!


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## Reno (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> He loves the thrills of violence. That is what he lives for. Having a family or whatever is just what is expected of him. He isn't that interested in them. It bores him.


 
That's not really the case, it was clear that he loved his family AND that he was a monster who enjoyed violence. It's been often remarked how Nazis who carried out the most inhuman of crimes where great fathers and family men and that's what the series was getting at.


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## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I wonder how many real life mafia wives do that- 'he's earning, my kids have the best of everything'


 
All of them I would imagine!


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## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I don't see his character like that at all.
> 
> Bear in mind that he initially agrees to see a psychiatrist because he is having panic attacks. He does not like the idea of seeing a psychiatrist.
> 
> ...


 
Nah, have to disagree with you there mate.

He totally loves his kids, and Carmela. He's destroyed without Carmela.  He's just massively selfish, and with huge appetites that he wants to feed. Like some big violent kid.


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## Santino (Jun 20, 2013)

He _thinks _he loves his family. Would he routinely betray Carmela so much if he really loved her?


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

Reno said:


> That's not really the case, it was clear that he loved his family AND that he was a monster who enjoyed violence. It's been often remarked how Nazis who carried out the most inhuman of crimes where great fathers and family men and that's what the series was getting at.


 

I can concede that it is a bit more complicated than I made out. But my impression is that he is only really interested in his _other_ family. He isn't that interested in Carmela sexually, he has his goomahs, and he isn't that interested in her that much as a person. She is just his wife. He loves his kids, that's true. But part (part being the keyword) of the motivation for that, I think, is because it is all expected of him. That is what an Italian patriarch _does_. But his real interests lie elsewhere. 

That is my impression and I understand it is not going to be one that everybody is going to understand or agree with.


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

Santino said:


> He _thinks _he loves his family. Would he routinely betray Carmela so much if he really loved her?


 

Yeh exactly.


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## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> She really isn't. She is complicit in almost all of it.


 
She is complicit, but she tries not to be, she's flawed. Her attempts to not be complicit are laughable, but it's as if she's in a golden prison and she's in too deep to get out. 



Spoiler



She starts to do that the end of series 5 and I'm hoping she will be fully free by the end of the series? Maybe not, maybe she gets back together with Tony, dunno yet!


 
PLEASE put spoiler tags around stuff!!!  I see her more as a victim of circumstances and her own fears, whereas Tony is the perpetrator of a lot of misery.


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

She doesn't really want out. She wants all the nice things without having to be morally responsible about where they come from.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

sojourner said:


> Nah, have to disagree with you there mate.
> 
> He totally loves his kids, and Carmela. He's destroyed without Carmela. He's just massively selfish, and with huge appetites that he wants to feed. Like som*e big violent kid*.


 
nailed it. Its not a character of huge subtlety is it. He's inchoate violence but never violence for its own end.

Hey, heres a good tribute to the man- we are dissecting his most famous role.


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> nailed it. Its not a character of huge subtlety is it. He's inchoate violence but never violence for its own end.
> 
> Hey, heres a good tribute to the man- we are dissecting his most famous role.


 
He might be like a big violent kid at the very start but entering therapy removes all those excuses. He can see exactly what he is doing. That is the genius of the show.


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## Reno (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I can concede that it is a bit more complicated than I made out. But my impression is that he is only really interested in his _other_ family. He isn't that interested in Carmela sexually, he has his goomahs, and he isn't that interested in her that much as a person. She is just his wife. He loves his kids, that's true. But part (part being the keyword) of the motivation for that, I think, is because it is all expected of him. That is what an Italian patriarch _does_. But his real interests lie elsewhere.
> 
> That is my impression and I understand it is not going to be one that everybody is going to understand or agree with.


 

He loved Carmela and he enjoyed fucking his mistresses. Just because someone wants several partners for sex, doesn't mean they don't love their partner.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

Santino said:


> He _thinks _he loves his family. Would he routinely betray Carmela so much if he really loved her?


 

he's more or less expected to keep a mistress. Its the milieu.

One phrase I remember about blow jobs- 'she's got to kiss my kids with that mouth'

which is fairly fucked up thinking


----------



## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> That is what an Italian patriarch _does_.


 
Right backatcha on the shagging around - it's expected of him. Not that he doesn't take total fucking advantage of that like, but in that social circle, that's what the men do.  Remember the shit that Junior came in for for liking oral?!!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2013)

sojourner said:


> Right backatcha on the shagging around - it's expected of him. Not that he doesn't take total fucking advantage of that like, but in that social circle, that's what the men do. Remember the shit that Junior came in for for liking oral?!!


a spot of dv in that relationship, between uncle jun and his missus


----------



## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

sojourner said:


> And would be committing adultery just the same as Tony if all her fellas weren't so fucking terrified of Tony!


 
She only considered this after years of putting up with Tony's crap. (There was the thing with the priest too, but who can blame her?). To me she's is the most human of all characters, the one I identify with the most. 



Spoiler



The psychiatrist is too measured and her emotions are very much under control. But I guess that's the point of her. But I think most people are more fallible than her. It's as if she's the idealized perfect human being.  Something we aspire to.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

Reno said:


> He loved Carmela and he enjoyed fucking his mistresses. Just because someone wants several partners for sex, doesn't mean they don't love their partner.


 

I don't think he did. It was all just part of his big man mafia persona. 

And the fact that so many people refuse to see through his character is a weird kind of justification for me. 

I mean, for example, just like Carmela, we the audience convince ourselves that he must love her (us), because he buys her nice things sometimes (to assuage his own guilt at his own behaviour), and even though he abuses her and neglects her.

It is like stockholm syndrome or something.


----------



## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> She doesn't really want out. She wants all the nice things without having to be morally responsible about where they come from.


 


Spoiler



At one point she makes clear she would have been happy with Tony without all the things. It was him who pursued it, the life, the money, the criminality... Carmela is most definetely under his spell. And who hasn't been under someone's spell for a while? She just did for too long. Naive perhaps.  Lying to herself because they had kids together?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

sojourner said:


> Right backatcha on the shagging around - it's expected of him. Not that he doesn't take total fucking advantage of that like, but in that social circle, that's what the men do. *Remember the shit that Junior came in for for liking oral*?!!


 

'If you can't fry it don't eat it'


-anon


also not something i endorse as a message


----------



## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Reno said:


> He loved Carmela and he enjoyed fucking his mistresses. Just because someone wants several partners for sex, doesn't mean they don't love their partner.


 
I think there's also an aspect of some fantasy transference for us as viewers.  We'd love to be able to eat what we want out of the fridge, any time, to live a life outside of the usual rat race, to be answerable to no one, to be able to shag who we liked without feeling any guilt or remorse (well, I wouldn't now, but that's by the by, shut up soj), to live in luxury and not have a boss, to keep our own hours, and feed all our appetites without moderation, to take revenge without fear of revenge, to CONTROL. But we can't, we don't, so we live it vicariously through Tony.


----------



## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I don't think he did. It was all just part of his big man mafia persona.
> 
> And the fact that so many people refuse to see through his character is a weird kind of justification for me.
> 
> ...


 
It's not refusal. You can't make people believe something that YOU do. We clearly don't - we have different perspectives, I think you should try and understand that.

Also, the buying of gifts is not the thing that makes me think he loves her. It's the crumpling he does when he leaves after the Russian rings. Stuff like that. The actual hurt in his eyes that he cannot win this one.


----------



## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> He might be like a big violent kid at the very start but entering therapy removes all those excuses. He can see exactly what he is doing. That is the genius of the show.


 
Plus of course, his panic attacks decrease. So it does actually have an effect.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> he's more or less expected to keep a mistress. Its the milieu.
> 
> One phrase I remember about blow jobs- 'she's got to kiss my kids with that mouth'
> 
> which is fairly fucked up thinking


 

But that's it. We think its alright because that's what everyone else in that world does.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

sojourner said:


> Plus of course, his panic attacks decrease. So it does actually have an effect.


 

Thus making him a more efficient criminal.


----------



## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

sojourner said:


> I think there's also an aspect of some fantasy transference for us as viewers. We'd love to be able to eat what we want out of the fridge, any time, to live a life outside of the usual rat race, to be answerable to no one, to be able to shag who we liked without feeling any guilt or remorse (well, I wouldn't now, but that's by the by, shut up soj), to live in luxury and not have a boss, to keep our own hours, and feed all our appetites without moderation, to take revenge without fear of revenge, to CONTROL. But we can't, we don't, so we live it vicariously through Tony.


 
We also get to experience the real consequences of living his life, so in a way it's comforting. We experience a life without any restraints, but also we see the fallout. It's a very moralistic tale, in the sense that it feels very much like real life. And in real life you get consequences.


----------



## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> But that's it. We think its alright because that's what everyone else in that world does.


 
We DON'T think it's alright! Fucks sake mate you're making a hell of a lot of assumptions about people here today.


----------



## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

girasol said:


> We also get to experience the real consequences of living his life, so in a way it's comforting. We experience a life without any restraints, *but also we see the fallout. It's a very moralistic tale,* in the sense that it feels very much like real life. And in real life you get consequences.


 
Absolutely!


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

sojourner said:


> It's not refusal. You can't make people believe something that YOU do. We clearly don't - we have different perspectives, I think you should try and understand that.
> 
> Also, the buying of gifts is not the thing that makes me think he loves her. It's the crumpling he does when he leaves after the Russian rings. Stuff like that. The actual hurt in his eyes that he cannot win this one.


 
I mentioned Lolita before, and you agreed that it was a similar kind of effect. In Lolita Humbert Humbert takes you on a journey that tries to make you sympathize with him, even though he is raping a teenage girl (obviously the story is more complex than that, but we have both read it and talked about it previously...)

And I think it is a very similar thing that is going on here. I think it is that effect that makes this show so powerful. Because even after everything, we are all trying to see the best in him, because we are seeing the world from his point of view, we are accepting all his justifications for his behavior. In Lolita the effect is that Humbert is essentially raping us, the reader, as well as Lolita. He is making us complicit in the abuse. And I think the same thing is happening here. Can you understand why I am trying to say that not seeing through his character feels like a kind of justification to me? I 

And as for him crumbling when Carmela leaves him, I don't think that has much to do with love rather than his mafia big man patriach persona crumbling.


----------



## Reno (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I don't think he did. It was all just part of his big man mafia persona.
> 
> And the fact that so many people refuse to see through his character is a weird kind of justification for me.
> 
> ...


 

Really, what is love after a couple of decades of being married with kids. It's companionship, stability and comfort, which is not a bad thing. In this way he did still love Carmela and when they split for a while it became clear how much he needed her. 

I also see Carmela in a much less benign way than you and girasol do.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> But that's it. We think its alright because that's what everyone else in that world does.


 

alright for _him_. I can say hand on heart I'd never cheat or have someones legs broke because they are annoying/in the way of my financial gain.

It does come back to what soj says- a kid. He wants, he's been given the framework into which he can exercise wants.

Its a criminal aristocracy if you like- but has to be fought for like aristocracy proper used to be.

I really don't know how much sympathy we are supposed to feel for Tony. I certainly can't empathise with the character. Chris is the one I feel sorry for


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

What I am trying to say is that _any _defense of his character is like the same process as, say, an abused partner justifying the abusers behavior. Because that is kind of the way that the Mafia works.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

But you can't defend his actions by saying his a big kid who is just chasing his desires.

In the very first episode, he goes into therapy. He doesn't have that excuse anymore.


----------



## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I mentioned Lolita before, and you agreed that it was a similar kind of effect. In Lolita Humbert Humbert takes you on a journey that tries to make you sympathize with him, even though he is raping a teenage girl (obviously the story is more complex than that, but we have both read it and talked about it previously...)
> 
> And I think it is a very similar thing that is going on here. I think it is that effect that makes this show so powerful. Because even after everything, we are all trying to see the best in him, because we are seeing the world from his point of view, we are accepting all his justifications for his behavior. In Lolita the effect is that Humbert is essentially raping us, the reader, as well as Lolita. He is making us complicit in the abuse. And I think the same thing is happening here. Can you understand why I am trying to say that not seeing through his character feels like a kind of justification to me? I
> 
> And as for him crumbling when Carmela leaves him, I don't think that has much to do with love rather than his mafia big man patriach persona crumbling.


 
Difference is that Lolita has the denouement - world of difference. We are at that point in a terrible position. We have believed him all along. But you don't have the denouement with Tony - it's good/bad/good/bad. You sympathise, then hate, then sympathise. Yes he makes us complicit but there ARE more layers to it. He isn't like Humbert in many ways. We don't just get HIS voice. Humbert also operates alone, in a very small world, whereas with Tony, there is a whole social milieu to consider.

I, we, DO 'see through' him - but I think we see more of the facets too. It's not like we don't know he's a cunt.


----------



## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> What I am trying to say is that _any _defense of his character is *like the same process as, say, an abused partner justifying the abusers behavior*. Because that is kind of the way that the Mafia works.


 
Having been in the position of both, I can categorically say that that is not the same process, for me at least


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> But you can't defend his actions by saying his a big kid who is just chasing his desires.
> 
> In the very first episode, he goes into therapy. He doesn't have that excuse anymore.


 

do you really believe that a spot of therapy and self examination will have significant impact overall on a middle aged mafiosa who grew up having seen his father shot and been inured to the day-to-day savagery of a mafia business?

I don't buy it.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> do you really believe that a spot of therapy and self examination will have significant impact overall on a middle aged mafiosa who grew up having seen his father shot and been inured to the day-to-day savagery of a mafia business?
> 
> I don't buy it.


 

no but it removes that excuse. That is the genius of having a mafioso in therapy. 

And in the end, even Jennifer Melfi see's that therapy isn't helping him become a better human being, just a better criminal.


----------



## agricola (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> In the very first episode, he goes into therapy. He doesn't have that excuse anymore.


 
One incidence of therapy means that he should immediately realise that everything about his life is wrong?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

agricola said:


> One incidence of therapy means that he should immediately realise that everything about his life is wrong?


 

It's not one instance of therapy though, is it? The very first episode starts with therapy and it is ongoing (more or less) until the final episode. It is one of the main themes in the show.


----------



## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> no but it removes that excuse. That is the genius of having a mafioso in therapy.
> 
> And in the end, even Jennifer Melfi see's that therapy isn't helping him become a better human being, just a better criminal.


 
Melfi's got her own agenda though hasn't she? It becomes obvious that she isn't just seeing him for HIS health - she's getting major kicks out of it.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

sojourner said:


> Melfi's got her own agenda though hasn't she? It becomes obvious that she isn't just seeing him for HIS health - she's getting major kicks out of it.


 

That's true. And it is something she struggles with. Succesfully, I think. There is the episode where she is raped and could use him for revenge - she doesn't. And at the very end I think she sees right through him, and sees that therapy isn't really helping him at all. At least not helping him to become a better person.


----------



## agricola (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> It's not one instance of therapy though, is it? The very first episode starts with therapy and it is ongoing (more or less) until the final episode. It is one of the main themes in the show.


 
Yes, but you are saying that "he doesnt have that excuse any more" - at what point should therapy make him realise that his entire worldview is wrong?


----------



## Balbi (Jun 20, 2013)

I suppose it's making him a better person, it's just that the person that's being made better is a monster.


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 20, 2013)

RIP James. Great actor.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

Balbi said:


> I suppose it's making him a better person, it's just that the person that's being made better is a monster.


 

Exactly.


----------



## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> What I am trying to say is that _any _defense of his character is like the same process as, say, an abused partner justifying the abusers behavior. Because that is kind of the way that the Mafia works.


 
There's no such thing as The Mafia


----------



## Schmetterling (Jun 20, 2013)

Reno said:


> That's not really the case, it was clear that he loved his family AND that he was a monster who enjoyed violence. It's been often remarked how Nazis who carried out the most inhuman of crimes where great fathers and family men and that's what the series was getting at.


 
Are you thinking about The Reader as well?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

agricola said:


> Yes, but you are saying that "he doesnt have that excuse any more" - at what point should therapy make him realise that his entire worldview is wrong?


 

I'm not. 

I am saying that being in therapy doesn't allow him the excuse of being a 'big violent kid chasing his desires' because once in therapy, he is in a situation that involves him having to look at himself, his desires and his actions. Previously to this he didn't have to do any kind of self examination. Once he is in therapy, he might still behave the same way, but he doesn't have the excuse of ignorance because in one way or another he has to reflect on his actions and behavior. 

(apologies if that is poorly worded, I hope you get the jist of what I am trying to say)


----------



## Balbi (Jun 20, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> Are you thinking about The Reader as well?


 

I sort of was. The most terrifying thing about humans is that, given enough justification internally, we'll do pretty much anything to anyone.

Also, Livia Soprano, the excellent Nancy Marchand feeds everything doubtful about Tony.


----------



## sojourner (Jun 20, 2013)

Streathamite said:


> RIP James. Great actor.


 
Innit? Pages of intense discussion - shows what a brilliant actor he was


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

Balbi said:


> I suppose it's making him a better person, it's just that the person that's being made better is a monster.


 

thats a given. You might like Tony when watching him but if he was real and wanting to come round for a bbq? no. He's radio rental. And not in a sectionable way.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

sojourner said:


> Innit? Pages of intense discussion - shows what a brilliant actor he was


 

I know. Proper genius to create a character that complex and ambiguous.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

Balbi said:


> The most terrifying thing about humans is that, given enough justification internally, we'll do pretty much anything to anyone.


 
Yeh. Although it is not something I want to believe. And I am not sure if I completely do. Sometimes in my darker moments I think there is a real dark heart to humanity in general, and that civilization or whatever is just a thin veneer to something truly truly horrifying.


----------



## Reno (Jun 20, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> Are you thinking about The Reader as well?


 

I was thinking of the many documentaries of non-fiction books about the Third Reich that I've seen/read. I only saw the film of The Reader and thought it was terrible.


----------



## Balbi (Jun 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> thats a given. You might like Tony when watching him but if he was real and wanting to come round for a bbq? no. He's radio rental. And not in a sectionable way.


 

Anti-therapy.

"Doctor, doctor - I'm a psychopathic control freak who's suffering from self-doubt and existential dread."

"Right, we'll clear that up for you immediately sir"


----------



## Balbi (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> Yeh. Although it is not something I want to believe. And I am not sure if I completely do. Sometimes in my darker moments I think there is a real dark heart to humanity in general, and that civilization or whatever is just a thin veneer to something truly truly horrifying.


 

Two meals away and all that.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

Just as an aside, whilst having this discussion I have been wearing a handkerchief on my head, for a reason I can't remember. Who is the real monster?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

Balbi said:


> Two meals away and all that.


 

I remember watching some nature program that made an impression on me. It was about bonobos in Japan who had developed some hierarchical social order. They lived in the mountains in the snow, but there were hot springs which were the best places to live. The dominant bonobos owned their own hot spring and invited all the females into it under their protection, and no other males. The males had to edge around the hot spring until one of them decided to take the dominant bonobo on and become the new king of the hot spring bonobo. 

And that is a story that is reflected through all sorts of things. Like the Golden Bough by James Frazer, the idea of sacrificial kings etc. 

I think in my very darkest moments it is not just humans that have a darkness in their core, but like, life itself. Life on a macro level is full of horrors. Microbes that digest other microbes from the inside out and that kind of thing.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I remember watching some nature program that made an impression on me. It was about bonobos in Japan who had developed some hierarchical social order. They lived in the mountains in the snow, but there were hot springs which were the best places to live. The dominant bonobos owned their own hot spring and invited all the females into it under their protection, and no other males. The males had to edge around the hot spring until one of them decided to take the dominant bonobo on and become the new king of the hot spring bonobo.
> 
> And that is a story that is reflected through all sorts of things. Like the Golden Bough by James Frazer, the idea of sacrificial kings etc.
> 
> I think in my very darkest moments it is not just humans that have a darkness in their core, but like, life itself. Life on a macro level is full of horrors. Microbes that digest other microbes from the inside out and that kind of thing.


 

seriously? I'd accuse you of smoking weed but I know you don't.

Life is change, entropy is the only constant and what is dark must one day face dawn. Process not narrative. The dark lurking in humans is easily combated by thorough beatings and cold showers


----------



## Santino (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I remember watching some nature program that made an impression on me. It was about bonobos in Japan who had developed some hierarchical social order. They lived in the mountains in the snow, but there were hot springs which were the best places to live. The dominant bonobos owned their own hot spring and invited all the females into it under their protection, and no other males. The males had to edge around the hot spring until one of them decided to take the dominant bonobo on and become the new king of the hot spring bonobo.
> 
> And that is a story that is reflected through all sorts of things. Like the Golden Bough by James Frazer, the idea of sacrificial kings etc.
> 
> I think in my very darkest moments it is not just humans that have a darkness in their core, but like, life itself. Life on a macro level is full of horrors. Microbes that digest other microbes from the inside out and that kind of thing.


Horrific but mundane.


----------



## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

One person's 'dark' and 'horrific' is another's 'that's just the way it is'. For every 'horrific' aspect of life there's an amazing one to counter balance it. People react and adapt to their environment/upbringing/circumstances. We are not separate from nature and animals, no matter how much we try to be. We are under the same basic rules and behave accordingly.

edit, oh and this thing with bonobos, aren't they the ones who have sex with infants, as a social activity?  It's horrific to us, but I'm pretty sure the little bonobos just get on with it.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> seriously? I'd accuse you of smoking weed but I know you don't.
> 
> Life is change, entropy is the only constant and what is dark must one day face dawn. Process not narrative. The dark lurking in humans is easily combated by thorough beatings and cold showers


 

I did say only in my darker moments. I don't always think that. But when I do I think that life itself is a kind of violence (for want of a better word) and that is has to be to exist, that violence is inherent in existence itself. But I never forget that there are beautiful things as well. And that they are two sides of the same thing.

I have err, pretty complex metaphysical views about existence and so on.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I did say only in my darker moments. I don't always think that. But when I do I think that life itself is a kind of violence (for want of a better word) and that is has to be to exist, that violence is inherent in existence itself.


You great big Romantic.


----------



## Schmetterling (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> That's true. And it is something she struggles with. Succesfully, I think. There is the episode where she is raped and could use him for revenge - she doesn't. And at the very end I think she sees right through him, and sees that therapy isn't really helping him at all. At least not helping him to become a better person.


 
That, to me, was one of the times where she showed compassion. When he felt that Dr Melfi had helped him and that he wanted to do something for her. I also loved the episode that had Living on Thin Line in it. The Badabing  dancer who was killed by Ralph - it was him wasn't it?



Balbi said:


> I sort of was. The most terrifying thing about humans is that, given enough justification internally, we'll do pretty much anything to anyone.
> 
> Also, Livia Soprano, the excellent Nancy Marchand feeds everything doubtful about Tony.





Dillinger4 said:


> Yeh. Although it is not something I want to believe. And I am not sure if I completely do. Sometimes in my darker moments I think there is a real dark heart to humanity in general, and that civilization or whatever is just a thin veneer to something truly truly horrifying.


 
Yes; we like to think/pretend we as humans have become more civilised/humane - bollocks, have we. We have just become more sophisticated or able to carry out evil deeds remotely.



Reno said:


> I was thinking of the many documentaries of non-fiction books about the Third Reich that I've seen/read. I only saw the film of The Reader and thought it was terrible.


 
I avoided the film until I had read the book. I liked it because when you have a mother who kicks you as lie you on the ground because she has lost her temper because out of sheer fright and nervousness you keep getting the math answer wrong yet you love her you - well I - liked it because it tied in with what I had already come to believe: that I could love and hate her. Sorry, if I'm oversharing. Am a bit fragile today.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

in the midst of this world
we stroll along the roof of hell
gawking at flowers


----------



## Balbi (Jun 20, 2013)

I really,
really, really, wanna
zig-a-zig-ah.

I am history's greatest monster.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2013)

Balbi said:


> I really,
> really, really, wanna
> zig-a-zig-ah.
> 
> I am history's greatest monster.


 

I'm reliably informed that if I wish to court you I must pay due attention to your friends.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 20, 2013)

rip. shame we won't be seeing more of him.


----------



## Voley (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm gonna have to watch the whole fucking thing again after reading this thread, aren't I?


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 20, 2013)

No one mentioned this bit of warmongering yet?



> Urging Bush to "reinstate the draft, send 500,000 troops and finish it,"Gandolfini, 44, adds, "I'd go, I'm too old and fat, but I'd drive a truck.
> 
> "The American people haven't had to sacrifice anything."


----------



## wayward bob (Jun 20, 2013)

NVP said:


> I'm gonna have to watch the whole fucking thing again after reading this thread, aren't I?


 
absofuckinlutely. i'm gutted mr b's loaned out our season 1


----------



## Frumious B. (Jun 20, 2013)

Grandma Death said:


> the scene where he's sat down talking to Patricia Arquette in True Romance in between attacking her and he's talking about his first kill is superb. I knew when I first saw him in that he'd be huge.


 
You were right, that was his big break. And it didn't happen til he was 32. Well done to him for not giving up.


----------



## marty21 (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm going to watch the whole series, haven't watched all of them, used to catch it now and again on the telly


----------



## wayward bob (Jun 20, 2013)

marty21 said:


> haven't watched all of them, used to catch it now and again on the telly


 
for shame! best telly ever  waiting for the eps to come online during the last season was complete torture.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Jun 20, 2013)

Johnny Sack never had a goomah. He loved his wife.


----------



## Favelado (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> Johnny Sack never had a goomah. He loved his wife.


 
He was very camp at times. So much so I often wondered if they might do a storyline involving a gay lover or incident involving him.


----------



## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> Johnny Sack never had a goomah. He loved his wife.


 

And the other one, what was his name, who ended up with Tony's sister.  He didn't have one either.


----------



## Balbi (Jun 20, 2013)

girasol said:


> And the other one, what was his name, who ended up with Tony's sister. He didn't have one either.


 

Richie Aprile? Reading up on the stuff today, he hated the sex scene with Tony's sister and the gun. Hated it.


----------



## girasol (Jun 20, 2013)

Balbi said:


> Richie Aprile? Reading up on the stuff today, he hated the sex scene with Tony's sister and the gun. Hated it.



No, Richie was despicable. Fat man with two kids, kind and gentle. Wife died in car crash.

Google says Bobby Baccalieri


----------



## Gingerman (Jun 20, 2013)

Swear-off with Malcolm Tucker.


----------



## thriller (Jun 20, 2013)

Truely shocked by this news. been watching clips of the sopranos for months on youtube



"I'm the motherfucking fucking one who calls the shots". RIP, Tony Soprano.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2013)

thriller said:


> Truely shocked by this news. *been watching clips of the sopranos for months on youtube*


 

If anyone says similar at my funeral I'll be so annoyed I'll haunt the fucker for years.

Similarly, defunct facebook pages of dead people that people post on. I want a fucking eulogy. More than one. And I expect everyone to have made sure it scans and doesn'tinclude some of the worst anecdotes that cast me in a bad light.

standards


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## thriller (Jun 21, 2013)

no idea what the fuck u on about.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2013)

thats fine nobody ever does


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## Idris2002 (Jun 21, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I remember watching some nature program that made an impression on me. It was about bonobos in Japan who had developed some hierarchical social order. They lived in the mountains in the snow, but there were hot springs which were the best places to live. The dominant bonobos owned their own hot spring and invited all the females into it under their protection, and no other males. The males had to edge around the hot spring until one of them decided to take the dominant bonobo on and become the new king of the hot spring bonobo.
> 
> And that is a story that is reflected through all sorts of things. Like the Golden Bough by James Frazer, the idea of sacrificial kings etc.
> 
> I think in my very darkest moments it is not just humans that have a darkness in their core, but like, life itself. Life on a macro level is full of horrors. Microbes that digest other microbes from the inside out and that kind of thing.


 
Bonobos live in Central Africa, and are female dominated. I think you're thinking of a case that is well known in primatology, but which involves a primate species that is not, in fact, as closely related to use Homo Sapiens as our Bonobo cousins are.

Yep, wiki tells us it is the Japanese Macaque:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_macaque


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 21, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Bonobos live in Central Africa, and are female dominated. I think you're thinking of a case that is well known in primatology, but which involves a primate species that is not, in fact, as closely related to use Homo Sapiens as our Bonobo cousins are.
> 
> Yep, wiki tells us it is the Japanese Macaque:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_macaque


 

That's the one.


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## Idris2002 (Jun 21, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> That's the one.


 
Aye, and given that our ancestors diverged, evolutionarily, from Old World Monkeys like the Macaque many millenia ago, I don't think it's a wise strategy to cite them as evidence of how "you can't change human nature, innit".

Check your facts in future.  (Wow, this is what it must feel like to be Pickman's model).


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 21, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Aye, and given that our ancestors diverged, evolutionarily, from Old World Monkeys like the Macaque many millenia ago, I don't think it's a wise strategy to cite them as evidence of how "you can't change human nature, innit".
> 
> Check your facts in future.  (Wow, this is what it must feel like to be Pickman's model).


 

that's not the point I was making though


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## Idris2002 (Jun 21, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> that's not the point I was making though


 
I dunno, sounded like it kinda was.


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 21, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> I dunno, sounded like it kinda was.


 

It wasn't. It wasn't really about human nature, just nature. 

That's why I said



> I think in my very darkest moments it is not just humans that have a darkness in their core, *but like, life itself*. Life on a macro level is full of horrors. Microbes that digest other microbes from the inside out and that kind of thing.


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## Idris2002 (Jun 21, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> It wasn't. It wasn't really about human nature, just nature.
> 
> That's why I said


 
To be pedantick for a moment, does not "nature" include within it "human nature" also?


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 21, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> To be pedantick for a moment, does not "nature" include within it "human nature" also?


 

It does. Bear in mind that I was being more poetic than scientific.


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## Gingerman (Jun 21, 2013)

Tony Soprano on Sesame Street


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## weltweit (Jun 22, 2013)

Sad that he has died so young, always a shame when that happens, I used to enjoy watching the characters he played.

I have to say though that he was really quite overweight. And his weight was mainly on his torso, which happens to a lot of overweight men. As I understand it, this is particularly bad because there can be a lot of fat near vital organs like the heart. My understanding is women tend more to put weight on around their hips which if you had to chose is probably a safer place for it.


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## Santino (Jun 22, 2013)

weltweit said:


> I have to say though...


No you don't


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## weltweit (Jun 22, 2013)

Santino said:


> No you don't


I absolutely did ...

Anyhow, "lovelier than lovely" you ain't sticking to your motto exactly are you!!


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 22, 2013)

weltweit said:


> I absolutely did ...
> 
> Anyhow, "lovelier than lovely" you ain't sticking to your motto exactly are you!!


 

I think he is being ironic.


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## Santino (Jun 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I think he is being ironic.


fuck you


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## Dillinger4 (Jun 22, 2013)

see?


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## DotCommunist (Jun 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> I think he is being ironic.


 
socratic, dramatic or situational?


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## Santino (Jun 22, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> socratic, dramatic or situational?


More like rain on your wedding day really.


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## Maltin (Jun 22, 2013)

Bruce Springsteen played the entire Born to Run album at the Ricoh Arena last night, apparently in honour of Gandolfini. 

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/n...n-to-run-to-james-gandolfini-onstage-20130621


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