# The end of cash?



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Has cash had its day?  

Pay by cash? Not for long, report warns Pay by cash? Not for long, report warns

I find the idea of capitalist transactions without the option to use physical cash very depressing. I hate the idea of relying on electronic transactions.  I hate the idea of the people being left behind. My Dad won’t be able to run his life without cash.


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## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

How many years before we are all being tattooed at birth and having trackers fitted. Because it’s progressive and more secure. 
We lose more freedoms as the beast grows on and on.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 6, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> How many years before we are all being tattooed at birth and having trackers fitted. Because it’s progressive and more secure.
> We lose more freedoms as the beast grows on and on.


Just wrap the tracker in tinfoil, sorted.​


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## mauvais (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> My Dad won’t be able to run his life without cash.


Everything being electronic has its downsides, certainly, but can you explain this?


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## The39thStep (Mar 6, 2019)

Philadelphia has just passed legislation banning cashless stores and New York and New Jersey may go down the same route. Any decent Labour Council should do the same its discriminatory and anti working class.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

mauvais said:


> Everything being electronic has its downsides, certainly, but can you explain this?


He’s in his 80s and carries cash which he uses to pay for things. I’ve never seen him pay for anything by card. 

He budgets by withdrawing the money he will use that week then stops spending when it has run out.  He uses cash to buy food, to pay his vehicle tax, to pay bills (over the counter at the post office), and so on.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

From that article:

“Banknotes and coins are a necessity for eight million people, according to the review's interim findings published in December.

These include rural communities where alternative ways of paying are affected by poor broadband or mobile connectivity, and many people who have physical or mental health problems and therefore find it hard to use digital services.

The report also concludes that vulnerability in this area is generally the result of income, not old age.
"Poverty is the biggest indicator of cash dependency, not age," the review concludes.”


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## BristolEcho (Mar 6, 2019)

I cant see cash ever going completely. We have moved to the point where people are more surprised when you use cash than a card though.

I was pretty resistent to my contactless card, but I pretty much use it all the time now. It's just more convenient for every day spending and with internet/mobile banking it becomes easy.


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## Fozzie Bear (Mar 6, 2019)

Cash is on its way out but not yet.

danny la rouge will be able to remind us all of the passage in Marx which says that once a better way of doing something for capital has been discovered it will eventually become dominant.

Where I live there are fashionable bars that are contactless only (I imagine for convenience but also because it ensures a certain kind of customer).

Also lots of cash sloshing about - the huge orthodox jewish community seems cash only.

My daughter works in a shop on Sundays which is largely but not completely cash-free. She gets paid by bank transfer.

I work for a membership organisation and we now get about 2 or 3 people paying by cheque each year. 15 years ago that was probably the main method of payment.


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## Fozzie Bear (Mar 6, 2019)

It will become more expensive to pay by cash than other means too. This is already the case with Oyster/contactless vs cash on the tube afaik.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Cash is on its way out but not yet.
> 
> danny la rouge will be able to remind us all of the passage in Marx which says that once a better way of doing something for capital has been discovered it will eventually become dominant.
> 
> ...


there's libraries which have pretty much stopped taking cash, and which stopped cheques some years back


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## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Just thinking about my own business. I’m a self employed guitar tutor.  People give me cash to teach their children guitar. I have never been asked to accept cards or even bacs. Very occasionally someone wants to pay by cheque. But usually it’s cash.

This means I have and use cash to pay for things.  If I didn’t, I use a card I suppose. But if people had to stop using cash I’d need to get them to pay by bacs. Which would then need me to chase them up, issue invoices, keep data.  Which would means storing personal data, something I don’t do now (I mark what I get paid in a diary, but don’t need to attach names and addresses to the entries). Which would mean I’d have to have a data policy and all that. Which is a pain in the arse and completely unnecessary.

(And before you ask, I do pay tax, and the HMRC seem quite happy with the way I do it).


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## jusali (Mar 6, 2019)

All to the banks' advantage of course..........


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## redsquirrel (Mar 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It will become more expensive to pay by cash than other means too. This is already the case with Oyster/contactless vs cash on the tube afaik.


Yep. You can still pay bus fares by cash here but often won't get change but rather a receipt you have to redeem. 

And as always it's the poorest that are hit hardest.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Yep. You can still pay bus fares by cash here but often won't get change but rather a receipt you have to redeem.
> 
> And as always it's the poorest that are hit hardest.


you can't pay by cash in london on the bus


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## redsquirrel (Mar 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you can't pay by cash in london on the bus


Nor in Melbourne. 
Leeds/West Yorkshire hasn't got that far yet but you can clearly see it coming.


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## JimW (Mar 6, 2019)

Cash increasingly rare already in China and because mobile phones are pretty ubiquitous I can pay the equivalent of a few pence to a granny for veg at the village market even, though of course there will be people left out.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> danny la rouge will be able to remind us all of the passage in Marx which says that once a better way of doing something for capital has been discovered it will eventually become dominant.


Vol 1, Chapter 15.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

JimW said:


> Cash increasingly rare already in China and because mobile phones are pretty ubiquitous I can pay the equivalent of a few pence to a granny for veg at the village market even, though of course there will be people left out.



The Chinese state is presumably not keen on untraceable cash. You could be buying unpatriotic vegetables from a seditious granny at the village market and they'd be none the wiser.


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## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

When a huge solar flare at some point stops all electronics I wonder what will happen then?


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## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

Of course the assault on all fronts on the working class reached the tipping point when BACS became popular and Right to Buy dropped in. 
Workers won’t complain or strike when there is the chance of mortgages not being paid or wages held to ransom in the all governing system.
Hence one day strikes and weak trade union representation.


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## Athos (Mar 6, 2019)

Whenever you have a plumber, electrician, builder etc., the inability to pay cash will mean everything costs 20% more.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Just thinking about my own business. I’m a self employed guitar tutor.  People give me cash to teach their children guitar. I have never been asked to accept cards or even bacs. Very occasionally someone wants to pay by cheque. But usually it’s cash.
> 
> This means I have and use cash to pay for things.  If I didn’t, I use a card I suppose. But if people had to stop using cash I’d need to get them to pay by bacs. Which would then need me to chase them up, issue invoices, keep data.  Which would means storing personal data, something I don’t do now (I mark what I get paid in a diary, but don’t need to attach names and addresses to the entries). Which would mean I’d have to have a data policy and all that. Which is a pain in the arse and completely unnecessary.
> 
> (And before you ask, I do pay tax, and the HMRC seem quite happy with the way I do it).



You can get an Izettle. My OH has a market stand selling veg and can now take contact less payments. Links to your phone and both the unit and transaction fees are very cheap.


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## Fozzie Bear (Mar 6, 2019)

Being a stylish metrosexual* I have to make a special effort to carry change these days. Still need it for tips in restaurants, birthday/leaving collections for colleagues, school dinner money.

*a boring twat who takes his own lunch to work and has no life


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## jusali (Mar 6, 2019)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> You can get an Izettle. My OH has a market stand selling veg and can now take contact less payments. Links to your phone and both the unit and transaction fees are very cheap.


Still a fee though


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## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> You can get an Izettle. My OH has a market stand selling veg and can now take contact less payments. Links to your phone and both the unit and transaction fees are very cheap.


A card reader? The fees for me using cash are zero. So having to pay a fee means I probably put my fees up, or take a hit.

I mean, if I have to do it I have to do it, but it’s not for my convenience.


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## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Just thinking about my own business. I’m a self employed guitar tutor.  People give me cash to teach their children guitar. I have never been asked to accept cards or even bacs. Very occasionally someone wants to pay by cheque. But usually it’s cash.
> 
> This means I have and use cash to pay for things.  If I didn’t, I use a card I suppose. But if people had to stop using cash I’d need to get them to pay by bacs. Which would then need me to chase them up, issue invoices, keep data.  Which would means storing personal data, something I don’t do now (I mark what I get paid in a diary, but don’t need to attach names and addresses to the entries). Which would mean I’d have to have a data policy and all that. Which is a pain in the arse and completely unnecessary.



It's actually less of a hassle than you'd think. Even now anyone who wants to, can take cashless payments very easily. There are scores of companies that offer small card reader type things that enable you to input the amount and take a contactless payment which goes straight into your bank. It's really simple. Most of them charge a small fee (about 1%) but that won't last long. Within the next couple of years it'll be a standard service offered by all the banks.

I agree that for older folk (even older than us) it's going to cause issues, and for those in the sticks, but hopefully things like this will give impetus for the supply of better infrastructure to rural communitities. I don't want to see cash go south, but that's more from a traditionalist perspective and personal pushback against the onslaught of technology but it's a losing fight. Nearly two weeks ago I arranged some match tickets for a friend who paid me £140 for them in cash. All of that cash is still in my wallet and I've been meaning to pay it into the bank! At the weekend Kris said "why don't you just use it?" and I wondered why that hadn't occurred to me.


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## JimW (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> The Chinese state is presumably not keen on untraceable cash. You could be buying unpatriotic vegetables from a seditious granny at the village market and they'd be none the wiser.


They certainly won't mind the exciting new avenues for full spectrum data collection on offer.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> At the weekend Kris said "why don't you just use it?" and I wondered why that hadn't occurred to me.


See, that’s what I do. Someone gives me cash, I buy a loaf of bread.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Still need it for tips in restaurants,


I’m not eating out all the time or anything, but I really don’t like the idea of having to leave a tip by adding it to the card payment: that’s how staff get ripped off. I’d much rather leave cash.


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## mojo pixy (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> There are scores of companies that offer small card reader type things that enable you to input the amount and take a contactless payment which goes straight into your bank. It's really simple.* Most of them charge a small fee *(about 1%) but that won't last long.



The bit in bold, isn't this really the point of it all? Small fee x many transactions = get paid from other people's work. Just more of this, more and more and more.


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## mojo pixy (Mar 6, 2019)

don't take cash = don't accept legal tender = giving stuff away for free = thanks!


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## quimcunx (Mar 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It will become more expensive to pay by cash than other means too. This is already the case with Oyster/contactless vs cash on the tube afaik.



And for a long time with direct debit versus quarterly bill cash or cheque.


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## marty21 (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> He’s in his 80s and carries cash which he uses to pay for things. I’ve never seen him pay for anything by card.
> 
> He budgets by withdrawing the money he will use that week then stops spending when it has run out.  He uses cash to buy food, to pay his vehicle tax, to pay bills (over the counter at the post office), and so on.


My late dad always used cash , he died 3 years ago at 75, he was reluctant to have a bank account and only did get one in the 80s when his employer insisted on bacs payments . He would then just get the whole lot out.  He never had a credit card  or use a cash point (My mum or sister had to do it for him ) .


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> A card reader? The fees for me using cash are zero. So having to pay a fee means I probably put my fees up, or take a hit.
> 
> I mean, if I have to do it I have to do it, but it’s not for my convenience.



It's 1.75%. So yeah you do have to take a hit. Was just saying there are easy options then BACS.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> The bit in bold, isn't this really the point of it all? Small fee x many transactions = get paid from other people's work. Just more of this, more and more and more.


Don't think so really. Businesses are charged for paying cash in at the counter as well. It's just that the tech is there and banks can set up a system for it and it's easier for them, I would think, as well as being widely popular - lots of people could use cash but don't. I barely use it nowadays, and that's a change that's happened just in the last couple of years - it's been a swift shift. Restaurants are the only places I will still make a point of paying cash, and tbh that's where card is a pain - if you're at a big gathering and 15 people all want to pay by card, it can take ages. 

This is clearly a trend that predominantly affects the poor or old, but it's also a worrying loss of privacy if cash goes altogether. Every single transaction we make will be recorded. That's kind of scary.


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## Yossarian (Mar 6, 2019)

I don't like not using cash - I'd be happy enough if business was still conducted using a mixture of barter and doubloons - but I'm using a lot less of it now that free-to-use cashpoints have become an endangered species where I live, I think that will probably make the difference for a lot of other holdouts.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> I don't like not using cash - I'd be happy enough if business was still conducted using a mixture of barter and doubloons - but I'm using a lot less of it now that free-to-use cashpoints have become an endangered species where I live, I think that will probably make the difference for a lot of other holdouts.


I resisted contactless for a while, but as soon as I had it, I very quickly started using it all the time. I don't even feel funny buying a chocolate bar with my card any more. It's just, well, normal. I'm complacently complicit with this shit.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I resisted contactless for a while, but as soon as I had it, I very quickly started using it all the time. I don't even feel funny buying a chocolate bar with my card any more. It's just, well, normal. I'm complacently complicit with this shit.



I'm not sure why it's an issue?


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> See, that’s what I do. Someone gives me cash, I buy a loaf of bread.



What are you hiding though, eh?


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## cheesethief (Mar 6, 2019)

Cash will be around for a very long time yet, but will inevitably become increasingly niche. It has the one huge advantage of not requiring electricity. Was on the train recently, went to the buffet car to buy some lager to make the journey a bit less awful, the chap's little epos terminal had gone on strike... the call went out "sorry folks, cash only!"... the queue in front of me dissolved with muttered curses, whilst I stifled a smirk at knowing I had a 20 in my wallet.

And that for me is the rub, no matter what technological wonders usurp physical currency, they're all reliant on power, and many require an internet connection too.


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## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> See, that’s what I do. Someone gives me cash, I buy a loaf of bread.


Even when I'm carrying cash I now find myself using cards to avoid breaking into the notes.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

quimcunx said:


> And for a long time with direct debit versus quarterly bill cash or cheque.


That's the one thing we can always be sure of - the poorest will pay the most. Key-meters are of course the most expensive of the lot.


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## belboid (Mar 6, 2019)

43 posts and no one has asked how people will pay for their drugs?

Ohh, Urban, what has become of thee?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Even when I'm carrying cash I now find myself using cards to avoid breaking into the notes.



Yup. Carry some notes on me, but generally try not to use them, just there for emergency.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

cheesethief said:


> Cash will be around for a very long time yet, but will inevitably become increasingly niche. It has the one huge advantage of not requiring electricity. Was on the train recently, went to the buffet car to buy some lager to make the journey a bit less awful, the chap's little epos terminal had gone on strike... the call went out "sorry folks, cash only!"... the queue in front of me dissolved with muttered curses, whilst I stifled a smirk at knowing I had a 20 in my wallet.
> 
> And that for me is the rub, no matter what technological wonders usurp physical currency, they're all reliant on power, and many require an internet connection too.



On a recent busy day at my local pub, all the card stuff went down for several hours. There's not a cash machine within five minutes' walk, so pandemonium broke loose. People were bartering with their shoes, their car keys, their firstborn sons to get a couple of pints of best bitter.

Me, who has worked in many pubs and knows that card payments are a pain in the arse, I had cash like I always do.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

belboid said:


> 43 posts and no one has asked how people will pay for their drugs?
> 
> Ohh, Urban, what has become of thee?



Bitcoin I believe?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> On a recent busy day at my local pub, all the card stuff went down for several hours. There's not a cash machine within five minutes' walk, so pandemonium broke loose. People were bartering with their shoes, their car keys, their firstborn sons to get a couple of pints of best bitter.
> 
> Me, who has worked in many pubs and knows that card payments are a pain in the arse, I had cash like I always do.



If they are a pain how come most contactless transactions are quicker?


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Me, who has worked in many pubs and knows that card payments are a pain in the arse, I had cash like I always do.


This has largely reversed in pubs, ime. Where a few years ago, bringing out a card produced a sigh, now the sigh is reserved for cash - most bar staff don't even ask now, they just present the machine at you fully loaded.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> It's 1.75%. So yeah you do have to take a hit. Was just saying there are easy options then BACS.


I can see the advantages for a market stall, but I think card payments would be my least favoured option.

I used to run a newsagents. At that time it was 3.5% on every card payment. I sold cigarettes. The mark up on cigarettes was less than that. In fact, on price marked packs (the ones that come with the price already on the packaging) it was _much_ less than that. So every time I sold cigarettes that were paid for by card, I was giving stock away for more than it cost me. People didn’t understand that, and I can’t blame them: they assume that an item costing them (at that time) £6 or so must be making me at least a couple of quid. It wasn’t. I was lucky if it made me 10p.

I stopped selling tobacco.  I was told that would decrease footfall. I did a survey to see what else people who bought fags bought. Even a Mars bar at the same time as their fags would make it worth it. But they didn’t: the majority who came in for fags bought fags and nothing else.  So I stopped stocking fags.

In the long run I jacked the shop in: I couldn’t make it pay. Probably too soft to have a profit motive. But stopping selling tobacco was the best thing I ever did. Never regretted it.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> If they are a pain how come most contactless transactions are quicker?



This again. They're not quicker, or if they are it's because nobody on a till can count anymore because every cunt is buying everything with a card.


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## Rob Ray (Mar 6, 2019)

Athos said:


> Whenever you have a plumber, electrician, builder etc., the inability to pay cash will mean everything costs 20% more.



The need for grey market (and black market) services will pretty much ensure that cash remains a thing for many years to come. Most likely though the use of cash will become associated in the public mind with poverty, graft and social deviancy, at which point it'll become a moral panic and campaigns will be launched to lessen or eradicate its use, etc.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> most bar staff don't even ask now, they just present the machine at you fully loaded.



Which, to me, feels like being called a cunt. 

You pay cash in pubs, that's all there is to it.


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## cheesethief (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This has largely reversed in pubs, ime. Where a few years ago, bringing out a card produced a sigh, now the sigh is reserved for cash - most bar staff don't even ask now, they just present the machine at you fully loaded.


Remember when most pubs had a 10 quid minimum spend on cards? I still can't get used to them accepting contactless for a _single_ pint. Shame really, as it was a good excuse for people to get a round in if they didn't have cash on them...


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> This again. They're not quicker, or if they are it's because nobody on a till can count anymore because every cunt is buying everything with a card.



So basically the world has moved on for better or worse, but the line moves faster when people aren't paying in cash...


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

cheesethief said:


> Remember when most pubs had a 10 quid minimum spend on cards? I still can't get used to them accepting contactless for a _single_ pint. Shame really, as it was a good excuse for people to get a round in if they didn't have cash on them...



Cash is a good way of controlling your booze intake. If I take ten quid to the pub, that's a couple of drinks. Twenty quid is jolly-but-not-wasted. A card, who fucking knows?


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## 19sixtysix (Mar 6, 2019)

Has no one remeber what happened in Cyprus during the financial crisis? Electronic cash was effectively switched off and all bank deposits over £100,000 were trimmed to £100,000. £1000 under the mattress looked a very sound idea. I continue to use cash not for everything but it is helping spend less at the moment. Cards are too easy.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

cheesethief said:


> Remember when most pubs had a 10 quid minimum spend on cards? I still can't get used to them accepting contactless for a _single_ pint. Shame really, as it was a good excuse for people to get a round in if they didn't have cash on them...


one upside. That slightly obnoxious thing of people waving their notes around self-importantly to get attention has stopped. People seem less willing to wave their cards in the air in the same way.


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## 19sixtysix (Mar 6, 2019)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> the line moves faster when people aren't paying in cash...



A bold and wrong statement.


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## JimW (Mar 6, 2019)

marty21 said:


> My late dad always used cash , he died 3 years ago at 75, he was reluctant to have a bank account and only did get one in the 80s when his employer insisted on bacs payments . He would then just get the whole lot out.  He never had a credit card  or use a cash point (My mum or sister had to do it for him ) .


I didn't have a bank account until I went to university in my late 20s so they could pay grant and loan in, first jobs still got a pay packet with the little greaseproof window.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Cash is a good way of controlling your booze intake. If I take ten quid to the pub, that's a couple of drinks. Twenty quid is jolly-but-not-wasted. A card, who fucking knows?


This is a good point. I initially had exactly this concern. More than once I've found myself drunk in charge of a contactless card and spending way more than I had intended.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> The need for grey market (and black market) services will pretty much ensure that cash remains a thing for many years to come. Most likely though the use of cash will become associated in the public mind with poverty, graft and social deviancy, at which point it'll become a moral panic and campaigns will be launched to lessen or eradicate its use, etc.



Ironically most dodgy money is in 'legitimate' offshore accounts.


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## JimW (Mar 6, 2019)

Also, sure I read Japan sticks with cash despite being future tech in a lot of other ways though maybe that's changed.


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## nogojones (Mar 6, 2019)

mauvais said:


> Everything being electronic has its downsides, certainly, but can you explain this?


His dad sells 10 bags. Cash is king!


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## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> On a recent busy day at my local pub, all the card stuff went down for several hours. There's not a cash machine within five minutes' walk, so pandemonium broke loose. People were bartering with their shoes, their car keys, their firstborn sons to get a couple of pints of best bitter.
> 
> Me, who has worked in many pubs and knows that card payments are a pain in the arse, I had cash like I always do.


Cash is a far bigger pain in the arse for pubs and bars which is why many are going cashless. Counting cash and administering it ("doing the tills" at the end of shift) is expensive and time consuming. Then apart from the obvious theft risk, banks charge businesses to pay in cash and travelling to a branch to pay it in every day is a proper ball ache. And have you ever stood in a bank queue whilst some bastard pays in bagful of cash? If you don't do that you have to keep it on the premises which means steeper insurance premiums, or pay a cash handling outfit like Securicor. The odd system crash once in a blue moon would likely be a small price to pay for most publicans. From a customer perspective it's far quicker and convenient to tap a card on a machine than piss about with cash and change checking.


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## Fozzie Bear (Mar 6, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> The need for grey market (and black market) services will pretty much ensure that cash remains a thing for many years to come. Most likely though the use of cash will become associated in the public mind with poverty, graft and social deviancy, at which point it'll become a moral panic and campaigns will be launched to lessen or eradicate its use, etc.



Exactly - this is already raised in the report:



> It is hard to discuss cash without addressing its role in the black (illegal) and grey (informal) economies. There is clear evidence that cash plays a large role in facilitating crime because it’s untraceable. Some proponents of a lower cash society go further, to argue that lost tax revenue from cash-in-hand payments is damaging society, and that digital payments would bring such payments back into the tax system. We don’t disagree with these points, and many in the UK agree: 36% believe that a cashless society would reduce crime.


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## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is a good point. I initially had exactly this concern. More than once I've found myself drunk in charge of a contactless card and spending way more than I had intended.



Bacchus thanks you for your sacrifice!


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

JimW said:


> Also, sure I read Japan sticks with cash despite being future tech in a lot of other ways though maybe that's changed.


Was in Japan in 2017 and yes, it was more cash-oriented than here. Don't think the beer vending machines took cards, for instance. (They also barely do efags, which surprised me.) That can all change very quickly though. The most cashless place I've been to was Poland. Restaurants were rather put out at having to dig out the cash tin to take my payment.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> So basically the world has moved on for better or worse, but the line moves faster when people aren't paying in cash...


That’s not my experience.

“Are you paying by Apple Pay?”
“Yes”
“OK, try swiping across the scanner again”
“Did that work?”
“No. Oh, you’ve got to unlock the screen”.
“It’s not recognising my thumb print right now, I’ve got a glue stick burn. I need to put my PIN in”.
“OK, try again. I’ll just have to re-load the reader”


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

_We don’t disagree with these points, and many in the UK agree: 36% believe that a cashless society would reduce crime.
_
Or, to put it another way, two thirds of the public aren't daft enough to fall for this argument.

As for lost tax revenues from undeclared cash payments, again the vast majority of taxdodging is done 'legitimately' and out in the open with no cash involved.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s not my experience.
> 
> “Are you paying by Apple Pay?”
> “Yes”
> ...



This technology will get better though. Contactless is already way better than chip and pin, no?


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> _We don’t disagree with these points, and many in the UK agree: 36% believe that a cashless society would reduce crime._



Reduce face-to-face robbery maybe, but fraud is on the rise so it's swings and roundabouts there. Get robbed, just never meet the person who does it. Another symptom of our atomizing society eh.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 6, 2019)

I don't think cash will ever completely disappear, it has too many advantages going for it, like the fact it can be used without either electrical power or a network connection and its untraceable.
I need 3 sealed units replacing in my double glazing when the weather picks up, the guy who did the last couple gives a discount for cash and I wish to take advantage of that deal.
What's getting to be a problem isn't the loss of cash but the loss of access to cash especially out in the boondocks where banks are closing branches and cash machines are disappearing at a rate of knots.
Perhaps we need to accept that rural cash machines are like rural bus services and need public subsidy.
But it is definitely getting more niche though, I myself always carry some cash, I use it in the pub (I'm with SpookyFrank on this using cards in a pub is just unnatural), for carparks, tipping waiters since I really don't believe that tips added to cash machines get to the people they're meant for, small purchases like a bar of chocolate or a coffee, charity tins and beggars.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> _We don’t disagree with these points, and many in the UK agree: 36% believe that a cashless society would reduce crime.
> _
> Or, to put it another way, two thirds of the public aren't daft enough to fall for this argument.
> 
> As for lost tax revenues from undeclared cash payments, again the vast majority of taxdodging is done 'legitimately' and out in the open with no cash involved.



The 36% will increase though. This is before any real efforts have been made to paint the cash economy as a hellscape of criminals, poor people and luddites.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

Me and Mrs Frank were working at a 'street food market' a while back. Card payments only, and all the money went to the landlord and then had to be claimed back by stallholders, minus their cut.

Very street. One bloke paid with his fucking watch. I think that was when I first realised two things: that humanity is doomed and that that is probably for the best.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> This technology will get better though. Contactless is already way better than chip and pin, no?


I don’t use contactless. Being an old grump, I even requested from my bank a card that isn’t set up for contactless.  I don’t trust the technology. 

It has started to surprise people that I want to enter a PIN. But I’m really fast at punching in 4 digits. I really don’t think much time is lost that way.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The 36% will increase though. This is before any real efforts have been made to paint the cash economy as a hellscape of criminals, poor people and luddites.



Contactless cards are a gift from god if you're a pickpocket.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> I need 3 sealed units replacing in my double glazing when the weather picks up, the guy who did the last couple gives a discount for cash and I wish to take advantage of that deal.


If someone's offering the old "discount for cash" it means he's a tax evader.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Me and Mrs Frank were working at a 'street food market' a while back. Card payments only, and all the money went to the landlord and then had to be claimed back by stallholders, minus their cut.


You're just sore because you couldn't rip him off!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> If someone's offering the old "discount for cash" it means he's a tax evader.



No it doesn't, might just mean he can't be arsed to go to the bank, of which there are ever fewer branches particularly in the countryside.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> No it doesn't, might just mean he can't be arsed to go to the bank ...


Of course it does!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> No it doesn't, might just mean he can't be arsed to go to the bank, of which there are ever fewer branches particularly in the countryside.


If they're legit, they will need to go to the bank if you pay cash. And pay a fee if they have a business account. Unless you're avoiding tax, a bank transfer is the easiest way to be paid.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 6, 2019)

Projections can be balls, but if you were a billionaire right now would you be investing in:

machines that manufacture coins or print bank notes
ATMs
Technology around contactless/digital payments
Everyone's preferences go out the window when the new shiny thing becomes dominant. When's the last time anyone booked a holiday via a travel agent on their high street?

I don't like that this is happening either, but I think it will need to be resisted by more than people refusing to engage with it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> If someone's offering the old "discount for cash" it means he's a tax evader.


It _can_ mean “I won’t put this through the books, so there’s no VAT or income tax to pay”, but not necessarily so. For some people it’s just easier to have cash, and means they don’t have to pay bank charges. I have to pay the bank for every cheque I deposit. If you give me cash I don’t. So I’d much rather you gave me cash.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> No it doesn't, might just mean he can't be arsed to go to the bank, of which there are ever fewer branches particularly in the countryside.




The banks Natwest and Lloyd’s do have mobile banks that visit the villages around here for half a day once a week.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If they're legit, they will need to go to the bank if you pay cash. And pay a fee if they have a business account. Unless you're avoiding tax, a bank transfer is the easiest way to be paid.



We paid our builder cash and he spent that cash on paying his workers and buying building supplies to do our flat up. As well as whatever cut he took for himself, which he presumably put some of in the bank but also spent in shops, pubs etc.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Mar 6, 2019)

belboid said:


> 43 posts and no one has asked how people will pay for their drugs?
> 
> Ohh, Urban, what has become of thee?



The government in aus are ''trialing' a card that sees 80% of income from most social security benefits being placed on a card that you can't use for alcohol, gambling products, PayPal or eBay. You get the other 20% in cash. They're threatening to roll it out nationally. Hopefully labour will win the election in may as they've promised to stop it.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Of course it does!



No excuses for bringing ‘the chin’ out Spymaster.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If they're legit, they will need to go to the bank if you pay cash.



Because you famously can't use cash to buy things.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I have to pay the bank for every cheque I deposit. If you give me cash I don’t. So I’d much rather you gave me cash.


Are you using a personal account? Business accounts charge to pay in cash.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Which, to me, feels like being called a cunt.
> 
> You pay cash in pubs, that's all there is to it.


There are more cashless pubs now , one near me The Jolly Butchers in Stoke Newington , the same landlord owns a place in Brixton , also now cashless . I didn't embrace contactless initially but now I do buy most of my drinks in pubs with a card.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Are you using a personal account? Business accounts charge to pay in cash.


I spend cash.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

marty21 said:


> There are more cashless pubs now , one near me The Jolly Butchers in Stoke Newington , the same landlord owns a place in Brixton , also now cashless . I didn't embrace contactless initially but now I do buy most of my drinks in pubs with a card.



Reason #3,456,008 not to go to London then.

If they don't take cash, they're not pubs.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

marty21 said:


> There are more cashless pubs now , one near me The Jolly Butchers in Stoke Newington , the same landlord owns a place in Brixton , also now cashless . I didn't embrace contactless initially but now I do buy most of my drinks in pubs with a card.


The JB used to be a slightly grotty punk pub. 

Gentrification.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> We paid our builder cash and he spent that cash on paying his workers and buying building supplies to do our flat up. As well as whatever cut he took for himself, which he presumably put some of in the bank but also spent in shops, pubs etc.


Ahhh, good old cash sloshing around the building trade. Workers paid "cash in hand" no questions asked, materials suppliers who don't issue invoices if you stump up notes!


----------



## marty21 (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The JB used to be a slightly grotty punk pub.
> 
> Gentrification.


It was a shithole  it was also one if the few places that served after 11 so I invariably needed up there


----------



## marty21 (Mar 6, 2019)

I always pay cash at my local garage , Lambros,  the owner, loves cash


----------



## chilango (Mar 6, 2019)

I've probably mentioned this before but when I worked in Mexico a certain % of wages had to be paid in _vales _- essentially vouchers that could only be spent in supermarkets. At one point they tried paying us that % in the form of a Walmart card.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

I wonder if there was all this fuss when we moved to bank notes. Or from barter....


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> No it doesn't, might just mean he can't be arsed to go to the bank, of which there are ever fewer branches particularly in the countryside.


I'm pretty certain that its' probaby both given the discount he actually gives. For a small business collecting VAT is a pain, you are essentially an unpaid tax gatherer for HMRC and gain zero benefit from doing it (and it can cost since you pay any bank charges on the transactions not HMRC), I'm self employed and since all my clients are big companies I don't get the opportunity to do work under the table but I'm not surprised that people who can do it, do actually do it. I'm helping Amazon and Starbucks dodge millions by buying from them, I don't feel much guilt that I'm enabling a local company that employs 3 people dodge  £100 in VAT.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 6, 2019)

ice-is-forming said:


> The government in aus are ''trialing' a card that sees 80% of income from most social security benefits being placed on a card that you can't use for alcohol, gambling products, PayPal or eBay. You get the other 20% in cash. They're threatening to roll it out nationally. Hopefully labour will win the election in may as they've promised to stop it.



Once you start combining that sort of social control with this sort of technology you have a real-world episode of Black Mirror in the making:



> Chips inserted under your skin: It sounds like science-fiction, but around 4,000 people in Sweden have had tiny microchips inserted under their skin. They’re most often used for access to buildings, but they can also make payments, including for train journeys.



If you expand benefits to include some kind of Universal Basic Income you can see how dystopian things might become.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Ahhh, good old cash sloshing around the building trade. Workers paid "cash in hand" no questions asked, materials suppliers who don't issue invoices if you stump up notes!


There you go, _cash is for criminals_.

_If you have nothing to hide, you’ve got nothing to worry about._

I just prefer to pay cash for certain things. I find it convenient.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 6, 2019)

OK just to get it out, it's been burning a hole in my brain.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> ... I don't feel much guilt that I'm enabling a local company that employs 3 people dodge  £100 in VAT.


Income tax too though. If that's a £500 deal there's £100 in VAT and possibly another £100 in income/corp tax, so that's £200 or more tax that's not being paid just on that small deal. When you consider the amount of it that goes on it's probably several billion  annually that's being swerved just by "cash deals". The fact that Amazon and Starbucks don't pay their taxes is an argument to come down on them like a ton of fucking bricks, not to let everyone else get away with it.


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 6, 2019)

I don't carry cash anymore, have not done so since May 2016


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> There you go, _cash is for criminals_.


No, I just spent long enough in the building trade to know exactly how it works.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

ice-is-forming said:


> The government in aus are ''trialing' a card that sees 80% of income from most social security benefits being placed on a card that you can't use for alcohol, gambling products, PayPal or eBay. You get the other 20% in cash. They're threatening to roll it out nationally. Hopefully labour will win the election in may as they've promised to stop it.



Already a thing for asylum seekers in the UK, only no 20% in cash.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> No, I just spent long enough in the building trade to know exactly how it works.


Yeah. I don't care tbh. A builder offers me a discount for cash, I take it. But I know full well what's going on.


----------



## cheesethief (Mar 6, 2019)

One tradition that, in my book, demands cash is tipping in restaurants. I loathe it when they hand you the epos terminal and it asks whether you want to add a tip... Fuck right off. I shall leave my tip in cash, on the table, the way God intended. A) that means everyone else can see that I've left a tip and aren't a wanker. B) if the staff want to pocket it there & then rather than let the management cream it off, that's good too.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 6, 2019)

I barely even use a physical card anymore, for day to day stuff it’s all with my phone via Apple Pay, it’s just easier and quicker.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Income tax too though. If that's a £500 deal there's £100 in VAT and possibly another £100 in income/corp tax, so that's £200 or more tax that's not being paid just on that small deal. When you consider the amount of it that goes on it's probably a billion or two annually that's being swerved just by "cash deals". The fact that Amazon and Starbucks don't pay their taxes is an argument to come down on them like a ton of fucking bricks, not to let everyone else get away with.



Where's the ton of bricks then? Just like 'cracking down' on benefit fraud, abolishing cash to stop handymen trousering a few quid off the books is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Except as usual, the stated purpose is not the real purpose. The real purpose is shafting the poor.


----------



## joustmaster (Mar 6, 2019)

I just had a look back at my bank statement - I've not withdrawn cash for 4 months.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I barely even use a physical card anymore, for day to day stuff it’s all with my phone via Apple Pay, it’s just easier and quicker.


Ah good. I'm still behind the times. I find that somewhat reassuring.


----------



## joustmaster (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Which, to me, feels like being called a cunt.
> 
> You pay cash in pubs, that's all there is to it.


Theres nothing more annoying that being at the bar and the person in front of you is trying to pay with cash. Touch your card and get out of the way Mr Flintstone.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Where's the ton of bricks then? ...


If I ran this country .... etc etc


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

joustmaster said:


> Theres nothing more annoying that being at the bar and the person in front of you is trying to pay with cash. Touch your card and get out of the way Mr Flintstone.



Really? Nothing more annoying? 

In any case, I do not have a contactless card because I'm not a moron.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Really? Nothing more annoying?
> 
> In any case, I do not have a contactless card because I'm not a moron.


You're wrong about cash being quickest in pubs, though. Contactless is quickest now, rightly or wrongly.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I barely even use a physical card anymore, for day to day stuff it’s all with my phone via Apple Pay, it’s just easier and quicker.



And all you need is an 800 quid phone which will last nearly a year.


----------



## joustmaster (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Really? Nothing more annoying?
> 
> In any case, I do not have a contactless card because I'm not a moron.


I guess it would be a bit more annoying if you were paying by cheque.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 6, 2019)

joustmaster said:


> Theres nothing more annoying that being at the bar and the person in front of you is trying to pay with cash. Touch your card and get out of the way Mr Flintstone.



I bet somebody trying to pay with Bitcoin would be more annoying.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I barely even use a physical card anymore, for day to day stuff it’s all with my phone via Apple Pay, it’s just easier and quicker.


I haven't bothered with that, mainly because I don't know how it works so don't trust it with my card details and also because I don't want to be taking my phone out every time I need to pay for something. Loads of people use it to touch in and out on the tube and on buses in London now though so I might not be able to hold out for too much longer. 

That's another area that has undoubtedly benefited from going cashless. Transport. Remember when buses were stopped at bus stops for 5 minutes every time whilst the driver sold everyone a ticket? Or when people had to fuck around at a ticket office window to buy train tickets? Good riddance to that.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Remember when buses were stopped at bus stops for 5 minutes every time whilst the driver sold everyone a ticket?


You mean nowadays?

That’s how it still works in a lot of places, you know.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> I bet somebody trying to pay with Bitcoin would be more annoying.


I tend not to be in queues with paedophiles though.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> That's another area that has undoubtedly benefited from going cashless. Transport. Remember when buses were stopped at bus stops for 5 minutes every time whilst the driver sold everyone a ticket? Or when people had to fuck around at a ticket office window to buy train tickets? Good riddance to that.


While I agree about the benefits, there are costs as well. Anyone who doesn't know what they're doing may be stuck, and if your card fails for any reason, you're stuck. We take it for granted now that our cards will just work - I know I do. But there isn't a plan B.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You're wrong about cash being quickest in pubs, though. Contactless is quickest now, rightly or wrongly.


Of course it is. It eliminates the part of the transaction where the bartender takes your money, goes to the till, scratches his head, works out how much change to give you, counts the change out, and walks back over to hand it to you. And that's ignoring the occasions when they get it wrong and have to do it all again.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 6, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> I bet somebody trying to pay with Bitcoin would be more annoying.



It's really hard to bite off just the right sized bit


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I tend not to be in queues with paedophiles though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I haven't bothered with that, mainly because I don't know how it works so don't trust it with my card details and also because I don't want to be taking my phone out every time I need to pay for something. Loads of people use it to touch in and out on the tube and on buses in London now though so I might not be able to hold out for too much longer.
> 
> That's another area that has undoubtedly benefited from going cashless. Transport. Remember when buses were stopped at bus stops for 5 minutes every time whilst the driver sold everyone a ticket? Or when people had to fuck around at a ticket office window to buy train tickets? Good riddance to that.


yeh now often don't see tube staff about when you need them, like the time the other week at highbury and islington when the bastard barriers wouldn't open for my ticket. that's a right win that is.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> You mean nowadays?
> 
> That’s how it still works in a lot of places, you know.


I know. I have to visit places like that sometimes. It's a bit like being in the 50s. I'm surprised everything's not black and white.


----------



## chilango (Mar 6, 2019)

Who cares.

I can pay for my flat white _and_ get my Costa loyalty points at the same time with one simple action.

*#winning*.

*Ok it's two actions
**...and I prefer a cappuccino or a simple black americano if it's after lunch.
***...and, yeah, Costa's coffee is shit.
**** Oh, and, if anybody knows how to actually spend my Costa points, do let me know


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> It's really hard to bite off just the right sized bit


you should see how much dental work Spymaster's had done, so he can bite off precise quantities of bc.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> While I agree about the benefits, there are costs as well. Anyone who doesn't know what they're doing may be stuck, and if your card fails for any reason, you're stuck. We take it for granted now that our cards will just work - I know I do. But there isn't a plan B.





Pickman's model said:


> yeh now often don't see tube staff about when you need them, like the time the other week at highbury and islington when the bastard barriers wouldn't open for my ticket. that's a right win that is.



Aye, but there's usually a cash option too isn't there? That's when the emergency tenners get used.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I know. I have to visit places like that sometimes. It's a bit like being in the 50s. I'm surprised everything's not black and white.


I was in London a couple of years back. Using transport was very confusing. You had to get a tourist Oyster card and nobody wanted to sell you one and it was far more trouble than I wanted to go to. And I think I ended up out of pocket. 

It reminded me of Logan’s Run. I think I would have volunteered for the Carousel.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I was in London a couple of years back. Using transport was very confusing. You had to get a tourist Oyster card and nobody wanted to sell you one and it was far more trouble than I wanted to go to. And I think I ended up out of pocket.
> 
> It reminded me of Logan’s Run. I think I would have volunteered for the Carousel.


The system is very convenient for Londoners and very inconvenient for visitors.

If you have a contactless card, you don't have to bother with Oyster any more, which makes it easier.


----------



## joustmaster (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> And all you need is an 800 quid phone which will last nearly a year.


80.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Aye, but there's usually a cash option too isn't there? That's when the emergency tenners get used.


i have an annual travelcard and i'm damned if i'm buying a ticket just because the barriers are fucked.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

joustmaster said:


> 80.


sh, frank thought he had a bargain


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I was in London a couple of years back. Using transport was very confusing. You had to get a tourist Oyster card and nobody wanted to sell you one and it was far more trouble than I wanted to go to. And I think I ended up out of pocket.


It was a bit of a pain in the nuts until quite recently but now you can use any contactless card. Oysters are for tourists and people like you who won't have contactless cards!


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i have an annual travelcard ...


In that case I'd just go over the top or push them open.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If you have a contactless card, you don't have to bother with Oyster any more, which makes it easier


I don’t have one, but then I’ve already been in London this decade, so I probably won’t need one for a while.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> sh, frank thought he had a bargain


----------



## kabbes (Mar 6, 2019)

Those saying “there will always be a place for cash” are missing the point of the report.  There may always be demand for cash but if the supply runs out because it’s uneconomical to provide it, there will be no place for cash.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I don’t have one, but then I’ve already been in London this decade, so I probably won’t need one for a while.


I have a couple of old Oyster cards knocking around that I can give to visitors to use. I agree that the system is bad for visitors. You used to be able to buy/top up Oyster cards all over the place. Not so easy now, cos everyone's gone contactless/linked Oyster that tops up automatically. 

I stayed pay-as-you go unregistered Oyster for years as I resisted the idea that everywhere I go would be on record. But I've well and truly given in now.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 6, 2019)

Bristol Pound – Our city. Our money.

The Brixton Pound - Money that sticks to Brixton - B£

The Lake District Pound: Money that loves the Lake District!

Liverpool Pound - Local Liverpool Pounds

Totnes Pound

Things like these will surely grow as ''cash dies''.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It reminded me of Logan’s Run. I think I would have volunteered for the Carousel.


I know, I feel the same most weeks. Keep dodging those sandmen Danny!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I know, I feel the same most weeks. Keep dodging those sandmen Danny!


i thought you'd volunteer more for carousal than carousel


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Remember last summer when the Visa system went down?  If you had cash in your wallet you could still buy groceries.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I stayed pay-as-you go unregistered Oyster for years as I resisted the idea that everywhere I go would be on record. But I've well and truly given in now.


not much of a resistance, it's fair to say. if that was your aim you'd have done better to keep getting paper travelcards


----------



## kabbes (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Remember last summer when the Visa system went down?  If you had cash in your wallet you could still buy groceries.


Crucial for not starving during the six affected hours


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Crucial for not starving during the six affected hours


It was a couple of days, as I remember. Not everyone has a store cupboard full of food.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 6, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> I bet somebody trying to pay with Bitcoin would be more annoying.


There was a pub in Hackney (of course) which did take bitcoin.  The Pembury Tavern , I never queued behind anyone buying a pint with it . It has changed ownership now so don't think it takes Bitcoin anymore.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It was a couple of days, as I remember. Not everyone has a store cupboard full of food.


It was six hours


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

kabbes said:


> It was six hours


Maybe where you were.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Maybe where you were.


Look it up.  Google “visa went down”.  All the news outlets report it as six hours


----------



## kabbes (Mar 6, 2019)

Not that it’s relevant.  The switch to cashless will be because there isn’t a critical mass in cash payments to justify it to the capitalist entities supplying it. Not because consumers have no use for it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Look it up.  Google “visa went down”.  All the news outlets report it as six hours


There were people on these boards reporting real problems. And they lasted for more than six hours. Maybe it was to do with a backlog, although the systems were technically back up, but all the same, it affected people for more than six hours.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Not that it’s relevant.  The switch to cashless will be because there isn’t a critical mass in cash payments to justify it to the capitalist entities supplying it. Not because consumers have no use for it.


I agree. If capital wants to move to cashless, it will. And it’ll start by telling us how convenient it’ll be for us, and how inconvenient for us cash is. That’s just the way of it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I agree. If capital wants to move to cashless, it will. And it’ll start by telling us how convenient it’ll be for us, and how inconvenient for us cash is. That’s just the way of it.


And by making sure that cash _is_ increasingly inconvenient.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

_And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name._


----------



## chilango (Mar 6, 2019)

Installing the ability to pay into high end smart phones was genius from capital's perspective...ease, convenience, status, image and desire all in one.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

Note the cabbie visibly upset at his customer's attempt at paying for a service with legal tender. They're creating a problem that doesn't exist then pretending they've fixed it. And calling us all stupid into the bargain. Just get your money out before the cab stops. There's a meter visible to the passengers so the price should not come us a surprise.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

chilango said:


> Installing the ability to pay into high end smart phones was genius from capital's perspective...ease, convenience, status, image and desire all in one.



And the people here singing the praises of such innovations are basically doing free marketing work for capital and want to take a long hard look at themselves IMO.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> And it’ll start by telling us how convenient it’ll be for us, and how inconvenient for us cash is.



And as this thread shows, many many credulous fools will drink up those lies and then regurgitate them all over the place.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 6, 2019)

hopefully by then we'll have a alternative 'peoples' currency that doesn't pollute the earth (for use in buying drugs and for localist pu. I was going to say 'and facilitate nonces' but thats not the fault of the currency per se. Whereas the pollutants is, you can't make more crypto pretend money without running a machine hot for ages. Its robbing gaia to pay paul.


----------



## chilango (Mar 6, 2019)

It's not a lie though is it?

It is more convenient. Because they've made it so.

They don't sell us lies.

They sell us truths of their own creation


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> _And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name._



and here we come to my personal favourite piece of conpiracism...

Numbers in Hebrew (and old Greek) are written in letters, true fact. The *sixth *letter in Hebrew is Vav which is variously equivalent to V, U and W and 6. In ancient Greek the sixth letter was Digamma and had the same function (there's no Digamma in the modern Greek alphabet).

Meaning that 6 6 6 can be written in the language of Revelations as W W W

so  eh,


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

chilango said:


> It's not a lie though is it?
> 
> It is more convenient. Because they've made it so.
> 
> ...



Look at the advert I posted. Is it really that hard to pay a cab fare, or is that a lie?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Look at the advert I posted. Is it really that hard to pay a cab fare, or is that a lie?


It's slightly easier to use a card. That's all it takes - many of us are suckers for things that are _slightly easier_.


----------



## chilango (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Look at the advert I posted. Is it really that hard to pay a cab fare, or is that a lie?



Tbh, and I hate myself for saying this, but since Uber has arrived here I mostly use that because it eliminates the need to have enough cash to hand, and in change, that a taxi would require.

So, yes, ime it's much easier not scrabbling around for cash to pay for a taxi


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 6, 2019)

Cabs:

Come off it, the elephant in the room is that it is easier and cheaper and more convenient to order an Uber.

ETA: posted at the same time as chilango


----------



## joustmaster (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's slightly easier to use a card. That's all it takes - many of us are suckers for things that are _slightly easier_.


I'd go as far as saying its considerably easier. Often you'd have to go to a cash machine first.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Cabs:
> 
> Come off it, the elephant in the room is that it is easier and cheaper and more convenient to order an Uber.
> 
> ETA: posted at the same time as chilango


Never used an Uber in my life. But then I don’t use taxis either.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

chilango said:


> Tbh, and I hate myself for saying this, but since Uber has arrived here I mostly use that because it eliminates the need to have enough cash to hand, and in change, that a taxi would require.
> 
> So, yes, ime it's much easier not scrabbling around for cash to pay for a taxi



Yup. Similar to Just Eat. You don't need to have cash to pay the delivery man.


----------



## jusali (Mar 6, 2019)

There's ludditism which is fair enough but the freedoms we are losing to "convenience" is a genuine and valid fear.
It runs hand in hand with phone tracking, Satnav, speed cameras and CCTV. Once that information can be collated as one then we're really heading for a "stamping on the face of humanity" moment. It's got to be a genuine concern to anyone surely?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> and here we come to my personal favourite piece of conpiracism...
> 
> Numbers in Hebrew (and old Greek) are written in letters, true fact. The *sixth *letter in Hebrew is Vav which is variously equivalent to V, U and W and 6. In ancient Greek the sixth letter was Digamma and had the same function (there's no Digamma in the modern Greek alphabet).
> 
> ...



All you need is a symbol of an apple with a bite out of it that signifies the fall of man.
Only If you believe in the Word of course!


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's slightly easier to use a card. That's all it takes - many of us are suckers for things that are _slightly easier_.


It's a lot easier. Unless you live somewhere silly (i.e. outside London) you never need to touch cash again.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

I'm not actually sure why people are so opposed to using cards anyway. It's not like cash isn't another tool of capital. Its only worth something because we belive in it anyway.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> It's a lot easier. Unless you live somewhere silly (i.e. outside London) you never need to touch cash again.


I don't do cabs really and have never done uber. But I would say that using a contactless card is slightly easier than using a pay-as-you-go oyster, which is what I used to use - topped up once a week as part of my routine. That slight increase in ease has been enough to see me ditch oyster entirely despite my misgivings about handing over so much information about my doings. We're easily bought.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Yup. Similar to Just Eat. You don't need to have cash to pay the delivery man.


People actually pay delivery drivers for the food? I don't think I've_ ever_ done that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Yup. Similar to Just Eat. You don't need to have cash to pay the delivery man.


but it's nice to be able to offer a tip to someone who's just brought you food.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> People actually pay delivery drivers for the food? I don't think I've_ ever_ done that.


yeh you've been remarkably successful at being about when the food's eaten but not when it's delivered


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> I'm not actually sure why people are so opposed to using cards anyway. It's not like cash isn't another tool of capital. Its only worth something because we belive in it anyway.


The traceability aspect for me. Every transaction I make with my card records that I did that at that place. My phone knows to within a very small area where I am basically all the time, which is one of the reasons I've given in largely. Privacy is disappearing quickly.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The traceability aspect for me. Every transaction I make with my card records that I did that at that place. My phone knows to within a very small area where I am basically all the time, which is one of the reasons I've given in largely. Privacy is disappearing quickly.


This was the reason I used an unregistered Oyster but the convenience of using a regular card now outweighs my privacy concerns. I do spread my travel across 3 or 4 different cards each week so no one companty has all of my journeys logged but I'm not even sure if that works. Physically I don't care now if the man can find out where I've been. I'd be slightly more concerned about having my online activities monitored so as a result of a thread on here, I use a VPN now.


----------



## quimcunx (Mar 6, 2019)

My dad insisted on paying his council tax monthly in cash miles away from where he lives.  Paying monthly by cash is not an option but he kicked up enough of a fuss that they let him do it.


Spymaster said:


> It was a bit of a pain in the nuts until quite recently but now you can use any contactless card. Oysters are for tourists and people like you who won't have contactless cards!



I have an oyster.   If I lose my oyster I can still get home on my card.  If I lose my card I can still get home on my oyster.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Note the cabbie visibly upset at his customer's attempt at paying for a service with legal tender. They're creating a problem that doesn't exist then pretending they've fixed it. And calling us all stupid into the bargain. Just get your money out before the cab stops. There's a meter visible to the passengers so the price should not come us a surprise.




"Damn it, it is taking me several seconds to get cash out of my purse, and I appear to be in the only taxi in the universe that doesn't prefer cash. Why doesn't my boyfriend hurry up and embarrass me by putting his card on the reader and getting out without leaving a tip?"


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> but it's nice to be able to offer a tip to someone who's just brought you food.


We have a dish of £1 and £2 coins on the hall table specifically for this purpose.

Two quid is my standard food delivery tip.


----------



## JimW (Mar 6, 2019)

It's all QR codes here, which does mean that anyone with a phone can take money without the set up of card payments I think, as the main chat service and various payments apps all allow that.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> People actually pay delivery drivers for the food? I don't think I've_ ever_ done that.


Of course they do. Well, my local Indian restaurant has started giving a discount if you order using their app. But that’s another instance of cash being deliberately edged out.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> We have a dish of £1 and £2 coins on the hall table specifically for this purpose.


You won’t if people stop using it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Of course they do. Well, my local Indian restaurant has started giving a discount if you order using their app. But that’s another instance of cash being deliberately edged out.


My favourite Indian restaurant deal is 'Free delivery. 10% discount for collection'.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

JimW said:


> It's all QR codes here, which does mean that anyone with a phone can take money without the set up of card payments I think, as the main chat service and various payments apps all allow that.



I'm really surprised we haven't got an easy, semi universal way for quick person to person payments yet in the UK.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Of course they do.


As long as I can remember you've had to pay with a credit or debit card over the phone before they'd send the food. I suppose I must have paid the drivers before I had any cards but I can't remember that far back.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> As long as I can remember you've had to pay with a credit or debit card over the phone before they'd send the food.


Yeah, but here in the sticks we don’t steal the food if the restaurant knows where you live. Top tip.


----------



## JimW (Mar 6, 2019)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> I'm really surprised we haven't got an easy, semi universal way for quick person to person payments yet in the UK.


That chat app allows transfers between friends too, think maximum in one go is CNY10,000 which is something over a thousand quid but AFAIK you could send three transfers in quick succession' maybe too easy to dodge tax or something for UK?


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Income tax too though. If that's a £500 deal there's £100 in VAT and possibly another £100 in income/corp tax, so that's £200 or more tax that's not being paid just on that small deal. When you consider the amount of it that goes on it's probably several billion  annually that's being swerved just by "cash deals". The fact that Amazon and Starbucks don't pay their taxes is an argument to come down on them like a ton of fucking bricks, not to let everyone else get away with it.


I'm not defending it, I'm pointing out that i don't feel guilty about doing it.


cheesethief said:


> One tradition that, in my book, demands cash is tipping in restaurants. I loathe it when they hand you the epos terminal and it asks whether you want to add a tip... Fuck right off. I shall leave my tip in cash, on the table, the way God intended. A) that means everyone else can see that I've left a tip and aren't a wanker. B) if the staff want to pocket it there & then rather than let the management cream it off, that's good too.


This is a major principle for me and I always tip in cash even though I almost always pay by card. My offspring have a tendency to roll their eyes at Luddite Dad but I want to be sure that should I be happy enough with the service to tip (I won't if I'm not) that the money goes to the person who has earned that extra payment rather than the corporate bottom line.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yeah, but here in the sticks we don’t steal the food if the restaurant knows where you live. Top tip.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

Tips is probably one of the few I prefer cash. Mostly as I don't trust owners to make sure staff get them.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 6, 2019)

Three words: negative interest rates.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yeah, but here in the sticks we don’t steal the food if the restaurant knows where you live. Top tip.


In town we'd mug the delivery guys if they carried cash.


----------



## cheesethief (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> People actually pay delivery drivers for the food? I don't think I've_ ever_ done that.


Used to do it back in olden times, when you'd ring up the local Chinese on the "landline phone" (known merely as the "phone" back then), shout a few numbers off the dog-eared takeaway leaflet at a somewhat stressed sounding chap on the other end, say your address out three times, convinced they hadn't heard you correctly, then when wait in trepidation to see if anything actually arrived. Was all COD. The idea of reeling off your credit/debit card number down the phone would've been met with utter perplexment.


----------



## joustmaster (Mar 6, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> "Damn it, it is taking me several seconds to get cash out of my purse, and I appear to be in the only taxi in the universe that doesn't prefer cash. Why doesn't my boyfriend hurry up and embarrass me by putting his card on the reader and getting out without leaving a tip?"


I'll be fucked if I'm tipping a black cab. I've had cheaper flights than I have had taxis.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 6, 2019)

cheesethief said:


> Used to do it back in olden times, when you'd ring up the local Chinese on the "landline phone" (known merely as the "phone" back then), shout a few numbers off the dog-eared takeaway leaflet at a somewhat stressed sounding chap on the other end, say your address out three times, convinced they hadn't heard you correctly, then when wait in trepidation to see if anything actually arrived. Was all COD. The idea of reeling off your credit/debit card number down the phone would've been met with utter perplexment.



Olden times.  Or, in my case, “on Monday”.
We’re not all down in that London. 

Does no one have the takeaway menus on top of the fridge any more?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

cheesethief said:


> Used to do it back in olden times, when you'd ring up the local Chinese on the "landline phone" (known merely as the "phone" back then), shout a few numbers off the dog-eared takeaway leaflet at a somewhat stressed sounding chap on the other end, say your address out three times, convinced they hadn't heard you correctly, then when wait in trepidation to see if anything actually arrived. Was all COD. The idea of reeling off your credit/debit card number down the phone would've been met with utter perplexment.


Yes, I guess that must have been the case but I just can't recall doing it. As a kid I can't actually remember food being delivered at all. We could ring an order through to the local Chinese but then had to go and pick it up.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Yes, I guess that must have been the case but I just can't recall doing it. As a kid I can't actually remember food being delivered at all. We could ring an order through to the local Chinese but then had to go and pick it up.


We used to have a takeaway night, normally when my mum was working night/evening shifts as I realise now.  Chippy or Chinese. There was no delivery option.

I still find the idea that you can get deliveroo to bring you Chicken Cottage wrong somehow.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

joustmaster said:


> I'll be fucked if I'm tipping a black cab. I've had cheaper flights than I have had taxis.


Yep. Even with non budget airlines. Black cab from central London to Heathrow - £70, flight from Heathrow to Edinburgh with BA - £62.

Black cabs are going to disappear and it's their own greedy bastard fault.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 6, 2019)

I was at the day centre earlier. We were doing an activity with tablets (the tech kind, not the ‘take yer tablets’ kind). There’s a big push to ‘empower’ us to use technology (a la UC stuff being online only). One of the service users became very distressed at not being able to understand how the tablet worked, was very worried about how she would cope with everything going digital.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Yep. Even with non budget airlines. Black cab from central London to Heathrow - £70, flight from London to Edinburgh with BA - £62.
> 
> Black cabs are going to disappear and it's their own greedy bastard fault.



And their failure to secure the subsidies that air travel gets.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Yep. Even with non budget airlines. Black cab from central London to Heathrow - £70, flight from Heathrow to Edinburgh with BA - £62.
> 
> Black cabs are going to disappear and it's their own greedy bastard fault.


Last time I took a black cab, it was a journey from the West End to the Edgware Road, near Paddington Station. £23. I paid by card, and I had to manually cancel the suggested amounts and tap in 0 when it asked how much I wanted to tip.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I still find the idea that you can get deliveroo to bring you Chicken Cottage wrong somehow.


And McDonalds. 

WTF?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 6, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I was at the day centre earlier. We were doing an activity with tablets (the tech kind, not the ‘take yer tablets’ kind). There’s a big push to ‘empower’ us to use technology (a la UC stuff being online only). One of the service users became very distressed at not being able to understand how the tablet worked, was very worried about how she would cope with everything going digital.



How was the class set up?  I think with some people you need to start with very basic mechanics re: how to use a capacitive touchscreen, the basic “system physics” of menus and windows etc.

It’s second nature to most of us, but we weren’t born knowing this stuff.

I worry about a techno-financial apartheid opening up in society..


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 6, 2019)

8ball said:


> How was the class set up?  I think with some people you need to start with very basic mechanics re: how to use a capacitive touchscreen, the basic “system physics” of menus and windows etc.
> 
> It’s second nature to most of us, but we weren’t born knowing this stuff.
> 
> I worry about a techno-financial apartheid opening up in society..



Well it was more an activity. It wasn’t the staff’s fault really. 

A few tablets were handed out between us and we took turns asking each other questions (ie what is the weather lke tomorrow, where is Paris) looking up information, playing music etc.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I don’t use contactless. Being an old grump, I even requested from my bank a card that isn’t set up for contactless.  I don’t trust the technology.
> 
> It has started to surprise people that I want to enter a PIN. But I’m really fast at punching in 4 digits. I really don’t think much time is lost that way.



Exactly the same here.  They were so quick and natural dealing with the request for a non-contactless card that I got the impression that it is quite common.

Went out on the town a couple of weeks back and didn’t notice that one place was card only.  Would have boycotted it otherwise, but had already ordered.  Service was excellent though, so left them a tip in cash.

Another place we went to was cash-only...


----------



## Ponyutd (Mar 6, 2019)

Perhaps not the end completely.
Police who pulled over van for a routine search find almost half a MILLION pounds in cash in back  | Daily Mail Online


----------



## 8ball (Mar 6, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Well it was more an activity. It wasn’t the staff’s fault really.
> 
> A few tablets were handed out between us and we took turns asking each other questions (ie what is the weather lke tomorrow, where is Paris) looking up information, playing music etc.



That seems like a reasonable way to start.  Moreso than going straight to stuff like forms, which is just mixing layers of confusion.


----------



## souljacker (Mar 6, 2019)

I really don't get why some people upthread are bitching about how long it takes to pay for drinks in a pub with cash. If you can't wait another 20 seconds for your pint, you may have a drinking problem and that's not my problem. I'd also suggest you frequent pubs that don't employ people who don't have the basic maths skills to work out change.

I'm a cash in the pub type person, always have been and always will. If I start getting cards out in pubs then I have no idea what I'm spending which is a major problem when I'm on the piss. Also, the taxis in Reading don't all do visa yet and officially, we don't have uber so if I need a cab, I'll stop at a cash point.

Also, drugs.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Last time I took a black cab, it was a journey from the West End to the Edgware Road, near Paddington Station. £23. I paid by card, and I had to manually cancel the suggested amounts and tap in 0 when it asked how much I wanted to tip.


The real fun part is when you're sat in traffic going nowhere and the meter is still ticking away.


----------



## Reno (Mar 6, 2019)

Germany, where I now live, is still very cash reliant. Never found a bar which will take cards, many restaurants don’t and in my local supermarket there still are signs politely explaining that now you can pay with a card and how to do that. Every time I pay with my card at my local supermarket without first announcing it to the staff, they act like that’s totally unexpected. I’ve only come across cash-back and self-check out in two supermarket chains. It means always making sure you have wads of cash with you and there aren’t even that many cash machines out of the centre in Berlin. It’s like living in the 90s here and took some getting used to.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

souljacker said:


> I really don't get why some people upthread are bitching about how long it takes to pay for drinks in a pub with cash.


Nobody is really. SpookyFrank was just trying to say it's as fast to pay in a pub with cash as it is to tap a card. Others just pointed out that this is arrant bollocks.



			
				souljacker said:
			
		

> I'm a cash in the pub type person, always have been and always will.


Don't count on it.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Mar 6, 2019)

8ball said:


> How was the class set up?  I think with some people you need to start with very basic mechanics re: how to use a capacitive touchscreen, the basic “system physics” of menus and windows etc.
> 
> It’s second nature to most of us, but we weren’t born knowing this stuff.
> 
> I worry about a techno-financial apartheid opening up in society..


I wonder how often when new customer-facing technologies/systems are put in place replacing old systems do they test them a) with people who have no experience of using IT (or cards instead of cash, or whatever) and b) with people who may have problems with learning or understanding new ways of doing things - ie people who live independent lives but have learning difficulties, dementia, neurological problems, etc.  More and more I worry about some of  the most vulnerable people being left behind in accessing the most basic services.


----------



## souljacker (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Nobody is really. SpookyFrank was just trying to say it's as fast to pay in a pub with cash as it is to tap a card, which is arrant bollocks.
> 
> Don't count on it.



Not just Frank though. And it is just as fast if you aren't some weirdo who thinks an extra 20s wait is a problem.

Also, there's quite a few pubs and shops round here that don't offer contactless payments.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 6, 2019)

crossthebreeze said:


> I wonder how often when new customer-facing technologies/systems are put in place replacing old systems do they test them a) with people who have no experience of using IT (or cards instead of cash, or whatever) and b) with people who may have problems with learning or understanding new ways of doing things - ie people who live independent lives but have learning difficulties, dementia, neurological problems, etc.  More and more I worry about some of  the most vulnerable people being left behind in accessing the most basic services.



It’s very tangential, but I help run a film festival and like you do these days, all sorts of elements are run online.  When promoting it recently it was v surprising how many people said they did not have a smartphone or computer, and so wanted to buy paper tickets with cash.

Some of them not very old either.


----------



## souljacker (Mar 6, 2019)

crossthebreeze said:


> More and more I worry about some of  the most vulnerable people being left behind in accessing the most basic services.



And they are the ones that will most often need these services that are rushing headlong into a digital only society. Is universal credit all online? You are so poor you need help from the government but you are expected to have enough money to get online.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

souljacker said:


> Not just Frank though. And it is just as fast if you aren't some weirdo who thinks an extra 20s wait is a problem.


It's not "just as fast", that's the point. If you want to argue that people should be less concerned about the extra time it takes to pay with cash, that's one thing; but saying it's just as fast as using contactless is utter nonsense.


----------



## cheesethief (Mar 6, 2019)

souljacker said:


> Not just Frank though. And it is just as fast if you aren't some weirdo who thinks an extra 20s wait is a problem.
> 
> Also, there's quite a few pubs and shops round here that don't offer contactless payments.


TBF, if it's my first pint of an evening, 20 seconds is an eternity...


----------



## souljacker (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> It's not "just as fast", that's the point. If you want to argue that people should be less concerned about the extra time it takes to pay with cash, that's one thing; but saying it's just as fast as using contactless is utter nonsense.



It's just as fast in the sense that an extra 20s is really not worth getting het up about, unless you are some sort of time is money bellend who considers every interaction he makes with the outside world is time he can't be checking on the price of his Rio Tinto shares.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

souljacker said:


> It's just as fast in the sense that an extra 20s is really not worth getting het up about...


Well that's not "just as fast" is it? It's 20 seconds slower!


----------



## souljacker (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Well that's not "just as fast" is it? It's 20 seconds slower!



20s isn't worth bothering about though. I'd understand if it took 5 minutes more but it doesn't so stop worrying about it you breadhead.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

If two people are served before you, and all three of you use cash, that's an extra minute.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 6, 2019)

It is a pain when they drop the change in the beer puddle on the bar though


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If two people are served before you, and all three of you use cash, that's an extra minute.



Real talk


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

souljacker said:


> 20s isn't worth bothering about though.


That's not what was being discussed though! 

What was being discussed was the relative _durations_ of each transaction, not the relative _convenience_ of them. 

See?


----------



## souljacker (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If two people are served before you, and all three of you use cash, that's an extra minute.



If they all order a Guiness, it's about half an hour.


----------



## souljacker (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> That's not what was being discussed though!
> 
> What was being discussed was the relative _durations_ of each transaction, not the relative _convenience_ of them.
> 
> See?



So why do you keep going on about it then?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 6, 2019)

When those 20 second packets add up to the time decent people have stood behind cunts in the pub paying with chip & pin for two decades, I’ll accept there’s maybe half a point there.

Til then, suck it up.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

souljacker said:


> If they all order a Guiness, it's about half an hour.


That's where I appreciate efficient bar staff. Guinness-settling time is time you can use to, for instance, process a cash transaction.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 6, 2019)

It’s noticeable I rarely walk around with more than £20 in my pocket now in cash. There was a time when it was unusual not to have a fistful of tenners in my pockets. 

Hang on though, that might have been when I was selling weed...


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

souljacker said:


> So why do you keep going on about it then?


To make the point that you (and Frank) are wrong. That's what the internet is _for. _


----------



## 8ball (Mar 6, 2019)

souljacker said:


> If they all order a Guiness, it's about half an hour.



If they are all ordering individually and paying on their contactless, rather than getting a round in like civilised folk, then yes.

Yes it is.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Mar 6, 2019)

belboid said:


> 43 posts and no one has asked how people will pay for their drugs?
> 
> Ohh, Urban, what has become of thee?



I imagine they'll pay for it the same way that people pay for prostitutes/massage services.  They'll use a card and it gets listed on the statement as something mundane or obscure enough to pass notice.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> It’s noticeable I rarely walk around with more than £20 in my pocket now in cash. There was a time when it was unusual not to have a fistful of tenners in my pockets.
> 
> Hang on though, that might have been when I was selling weed...



Adding, allegedly officer!


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

8ball said:


> If they are all ordering individually and paying on their contactless, rather than getting a round in like civilised folk, then yes.
> 
> Yes it is.



I imagine it will have an impact on pub culture, maybe run a bill up as in European bars?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

souljacker said:


> I'd also suggest you frequent pubs that don't employ people who don't have the basic maths skills to work out change.



The rarer cash becomes the worse this will get. 

The more stuff we let gizmos do for us the less we will actually know how to do for ourselves.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 6, 2019)

souljacker said:


> 20s isn't worth bothering about though. I'd understand if it took 5 minutes more but it doesn't so stop worrying about it you breadhead.



It's in response to people being rude about people using cards in pubs. Not the other way round.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 6, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I imagine they'll pay for it the same way that people pay for prostitutes/massage services.  They'll use a card and it gets listed on the statement as something mundane or obscure enough to pass notice.



The drug dealers in Ibiza were accepting cards already a couple of years back.  Just link a smartphone to a card reader and off you go, simple really.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If two people are served before you, and all three of you use cash, that's an extra minute.



It does not take an extra twenty seconds to pay with cash. It takes about five seconds, unless it's the barperson's first day. You'd have to go some to add up enough five second intervals to be worth moaning about.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

When we finally have a post money society (rather than just capitalism with no M0), then getting drinks will be more convenient all round. But capitalism with no M0 is going to be a dystopia.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> It does not take an extra twenty seconds to pay with cash. It takes about five seconds ...


Nonsense. Using a card cuts the transaction process almost in half. The act of tapping the card is the equivalent to handing over your cash. However, tapping the card ends the transaction whilst handing over cash starts one. Everything that happens from the point of hand over to you getting your change back is extra time and that takes way more than 5 seconds. In fact I think 20 is generous, particularly if you're not being served right next to the till or if the bartender has to wait for another to finish using the till first.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> It does not take an extra twenty seconds to pay with cash. It takes about five seconds, unless it's the barperson's first day. You'd have to go some to add up enough five second intervals to be worth moaning about.


Thing is, as I said before, it's marginally more convenient just to tap a card - plus I don't go home with a load of change that will eventually wear a hole in my pocket - and that's enough for me to switch. I'm not moaning about others using cash, just saying that experience now has taught me that it really didn't take much to make me switch to card.

I would have to ask someone who works in a bar, but I would also imagine that the staff now prefer you to use a card. I would suggest that those extra few seconds per customer add up to a measurable reduction in the pressure on them over the course of a shift.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> or if the bartender has to waith for another to finish using the till first.


What about if the card machine is being used by someone else, or is on a go slow, or won’t recognise your card. “Give it a wipe and try it again”.

I can’t believe all you people just agreeing that cards are quicker. Are they buggery.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Mar 6, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> The drug dealers in Ibiza were accepting cards already a couple of years back.  Just link a smartphone to a card reader and off you go, simple really.



Not a bit surprised.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 6, 2019)

I think we can all agree that tapping or cash are both infinitely better than the days when groups of people would all buy a drink individually and use chip and pin.  That took fucking ages.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> I think we can all agree that tapping or cash are both infinitely better than the days when groups of people would all buy a drink individually and use chip and pin.  That took fucking ages.


I was always acutely embarrassed when I realised I didn't have cash and had to ask to do this. Normally it also involved getting enough cash back so that I only had to do it once.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> What about if the card machine is being used by someone else, or is on a go slow, or won’t recognise your card. “Give it a wipe and try it again”.


Most pubs here now have several card machines so that hardly ever happens. That'll be the equivalent of the bartender fucking your change up and having to do it all again. In fact change mistakes happen far more frequently than card fails.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Most pubs here now have several card machines so that hardly ever happens. That'll be the equivalent of the bartender fucking your change up and having to do it all again. In change mistakes happen far more frequently than card fails.


In the Spoons, the machines now face out at the customer. They just have to point at it. Easy peasy. And surely easier and peasier for the staff, which has to be the more important thing.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If two people are served before you, and all three of you use cash, that's an extra minute.


One of my superpowers is the ability to render myself totally invisible to someone stood on the other side of a bar. An extra 60 secs stood at the bar is not a problem to me, I'm more than used to it


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In the Spoons, the machines now face out at the customer. They just have to point at it. Easy peasy. And surely easier and peasier for the staff, which has to be the more important thing.


Indeed. Most large pubs, ime.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> One of my superpowers is the ability to render myself totally invisible to someone stood on the other side of a bar. An extra 60 secs stood at the bar is not a problem to me, I'm more than used to it


*offers high five*

*misses*


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Mar 6, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> One of my superpowers is the ability to render myself totally invisible to someone stood on the other side of a bar. An extra 60 secs stood at the bar is not a problem to me, I'm more than used to it



I have amazing powers of invisibility too, except they're more broadly applied than just bars.  I'm invisible everywhere.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Normally it also involved getting enough cash back so that I only had to do it once.


One of the things I noticed in the article was the idea of requiring rural shops to do cash back. I don’t know how they think that’ll work if people aren’t bringing cash into the shops.  Shops don’t just naturally have cash hanging around; it has to come from customers.

I ran a rural shop. Some days in winter I literally wouldn’t have been able to give any cash back. And that was several years ago.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> One of my superpowers is the ability to render myself totally invisible to someone stood on the other side of a bar. An extra 60 secs stood at the bar is not a problem to me, I'm more than used to it


As the old joke goes: it doesn’t take _me_ long to wait half an hour.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 6, 2019)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> I'm not actually sure why people are so opposed to using cards anyway. It's not like cash isn't another tool of capital. Its only worth something because we belive in it anyway.


People aren't "opposed to using cards" they are opposed to the poor being hit with yet another stick.

EDIT: And the encroachment of capital/state even further into our lives.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> People aren't "opposed to using cards" they are opposed to the poor being hit with yet another stick.
> 
> EDIT: And the encroachment of capital/state even further into our lives.


Yup. Worth quoting the words of the report again: "Poverty is the biggest indicator of cash dependency, not age".  It’s just going to make life even harder for some people.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> What about if the card machine is being used by someone else, or is on a go slow, or won’t recognise your card. “Give it a wipe and try it again”.
> 
> I can’t believe all you people just agreeing that cards are quicker. Are they buggery.


And aren't all cards with contactless limited to 3 transactions of a maximum £30 a time before you have to re enter your pin to avoid someone cleaning you out if you lose it?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> And aren't all cards with contactless limited to 3 transactions of a maximum £30 a time before you have to re enter your pin to avoid someone cleaning you out if you lose it?


Possibly. I don’t have contactlessness, though. I’m a chip and pin holdout.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> And aren't all cards with contactless limited to 3 transactions of a maximum £30 a time before you have to re enter your pin to avoid someone cleaning you out if you lose it?


Don't think 3 transactions is correct. That would cause a problem for a lot of people of the tube and buses in London. £30 is the maximum for a single transaction though.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Possibly. I don’t have contactlessness, though. I’m a chip and pin holdout.



My experience is you have no agency in this. The banks gave me contactless, I had no say.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Possibly. I don’t have contactlessness, though. I’m a chip and pin holdout.


Mine is. So at some point in Spymaster s bustling, hassle free contactless service Happy pub, people will be entering pins.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 6, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> My experience is you have no agency in this. The banks gave me contactless, I had no say.


You can return it refusing it. Nationwide offered that option. That was a while ago though.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Mine is. So at some point in Spymaster s bustling, hassle free contactless service Happy pub, people will be entering pins.


Not unless the pub's full of Danny la rouge types, or everyone's buying huge rounds.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> My experience is you have no agency in this. The banks gave me contactless, I had no say.



I think it happens as your card is renewed. I still have one chip and pin that expires later this year.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> My experience is you have no agency in this. The banks gave me contactless, I had no say.


I had to ask. They don’t ask you. But it was very easy. I got the impression it was a regular request. “No problem, that’ll be put in the post got you”. Easy as that.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Don't think 3 transactions is correct. That would cause a problem for a lot of people of the tube and buses in London. £30 is the maximum for a single transaction though.


Mine is 3. Which means the most someone can Rob off you is 90 quid.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Not unless the pub's full of Danny la rouge types, or everyone's buying huge rounds.


Hah, if only the world were that perfect.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 6, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> You can return it refusing it. Nationwide offered that option. That was a while ago though.



Without naming my bank, because this is obviously another phishing thread organized by Spymaster's evil twin danny la rouge, Barclays, oops, gave me no option.

Edit, yeah what Sprocket. said.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Mine is 3. Which means the most someone can Rob off you is 90 quid.



I don't care about the card getting nicked. The bank have to pay you that back so I think the convenience of contactless outweighs the potential risk.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Without naming my bank, because this is obviously another phishing thread organized by Spymaster's evil twin danny la rouge, Barclays, oops, gave me no option.


No, that’s right: they assume you’ll want contactless. But if you phone and say you don’t, they sort that out for you with no quibbles. It’s not like trying to swap phone providers. You don’t get put through to the Retaining Contactless Re-education Team. They just send you a non contactless card.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I don't care about the card getting nicked. The bank have to pay you that back so I think the convenience of contactless outweighs the potential risk.


I do. If you don't report it straight away (I can go 2 days without using my card)haven't you then got the ball ache of proving you didn't make them transactions?


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> You can return it refusing it. Nationwide offered that option. That was a while ago though.




Surprised they haven’t commissioned a poem about it.


----------



## Cid (Mar 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> The Chinese state is presumably not keen on untraceable cash. You could be buying unpatriotic vegetables from a seditious granny at the village market and they'd be none the wiser.



Perhaps, but it is ubiquitous, convenient and cheap (I dunno whether there are fees for stores, but don't think so and if there are they're minimal). It's integrated with social media so you can pay mates if you want to split a bill or just pay back a debt etc. As a side note your social media wallet is also where you pay utilities, book cinema tickets, trains (well, not if you're a foreigner) etc. It is incredibly well integrated, and works pretty much seamlessly whether you're paying Jim's old lady in a market or paying in the supermarket. Or receiving dubious teaching payments.

Yeah, of course it follows from that your spending patterns are probably open to analysis if/when the man wants access. Personally I don't think that's why it hasn't caught on here yet, most people do all sorts of shit that is easily tracked and don't seem to care... I suspect the main reason is that the companies who would develop it in the west make substantial amounts of money off transaction fees.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> No, that’s right: they assume you’ll want contactless. But if you phone and say you don’t, they sort that out for you with no quibbles. It’s not like trying to swap phone providers. You don’t get put through to the Retaining Contactless Re-education Team. They just send you a non contactless card.



Yep, fair enough Danny, never realised that.

I'm all respectable these days, but there were many years in my past when I wasn't, in that I was unemployed and did what I had to survive. All those years I relied on knowing exactly how much money I had and exactly how much money I was spending. In order not to get into crippling debt, that was essential. To which end, I cannot imagine doing that (and I did it for quite some time) 'contactless'. It's a no-brainer. It's easier to carry around in your pocket what you have, and be able to count it, than to keep track of random numbers you flash a card at. I'm not sure money will ever disappear, but any moves towards no money will mess with poor people's lives and ability to budget.

With money, contactless is easier. who'd have thunk capitalism would try and progress by making it easier for people who 'play the game' while fucking the poor even more eh?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> I do. If you don't report it straight away (I can go 2 days without using my card)haven't you then got the ball ache of proving you didn't make them transactions?


Again, I think the convenience hugely outweighs this. I've never had a card stolen and used, but I've had them cloned two or three times. Each time I've had the dough back pretty quickly. You just have to fill in and sign a form (RBS). It's a bit of a pain in the arse because you have to go into a branch and waiting for replacement cards is irritating, but as I say, it's happened to me 2 or 3 times in over 30 years (and I've never had a contactless fraud) so not too bothered.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2019)

I like the ease of using my phone to pay, plus I get an instant notification what’s been paid for and where.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Yep, fair enough Danny, never realised that.
> 
> I'm all respectable these days, but there were many years in my past when I wasn't, in that I was unemployed and did what I had to survive. All those years I relied on knowing exactly how much money I had and exactly how much money I was spending. In order not to get into crippling debt, that was essential. To which end, I cannot imagine doing that (and I did it for quite some time) 'contactless'. It's a no-brainer. It's easier to carry around in your pocket what you have, and be able to count it, than to keep track of random numbers you flash a card at. I'm not sure money will ever disappear, but any moves towards no money will mess with poor people's lives and ability to budget.
> 
> With money, contactless is easier. who'd have thunk capitalism would try and progress by making it easier for people who 'play the game' while fucking the poor even more eh?


Precisely.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In the Spoons, the machines now face out at the customer. They just have to point at it. Easy peasy. And surely easier and peasier for the staff, which has to be the more important thing.


Staff love contactless


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 6, 2019)

Turkeys voting for xmas innit. Fuck cards, fuck contactless, fuck whatever it is people can now do on their phone apps to make a "speedy transaction." It all benefits the capitalists first and foremost. Until the social revolution for a world of free access to all resources (a _real_ world without money), and I'm not holding my breath for that, then we should just make do with using cash as much as we can.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Turkeys voting for xmas innit. Fuck cards, fuck contactless, fuck whatever it is people can now do on their phone apps to make a "speedy transaction." It all benefits the capitalists first and foremost. Until the social revolution for a world of free access to all resources (a _real_ world without money), and I'm not holding my breath for that, then we should just make do with using cash as much as we can.


Absolutely. I don’t want to make things easier for capital. No thank you.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> ... (a _real_ world without money), and I'm not holding my breath for that...


Good move


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Good move


It’s going to happen in small ways more and more at the margins, though. It just is.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 6, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Yep, fair enough Danny, never realised that.
> 
> I'm all respectable these days, but there were many years in my past when I wasn't, in that I was unemployed and did what I had to survive. All those years I relied on knowing exactly how much money I had and exactly how much money I was spending. In order not to get into crippling debt, that was essential. To which end, I cannot imagine doing that (and I did it for quite some time) 'contactless'. It's a no-brainer. It's easier to carry around in your pocket what you have, and be able to count it, than to keep track of random numbers you flash a card at. I'm not sure money will ever disappear, but any moves towards no money will mess with poor people's lives and ability to budget.
> 
> With money, contactless is easier. who'd have thunk capitalism would try and progress by making it easier for people who 'play the game' while fucking the poor even more eh?


Phone apps will sort that problem out, same with danny's dad's budgeting methods. You'll have a balance displayed in the app, you'll be able to transfer a set amount into there for the week etc. It'll work very similarly to cash in that respect.
You can see this in the budgeting softwares that exist at the moment, and if cash goes, I'm sure the various phone payment apps, whether that's apple/Android pay or something like venmo, will expand giving options for different ways to control spending that will be more like cash than using a card.

I'll resist cash going although i hardly ever use it. I don't see any reason to cause people who prefer cash issues and there's a whole world of issues around access to the technology that will be needed and the knowledge to use that, but i think you'll find the budgeting options on phone apps will cover every way people work with cash.


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 6, 2019)

The drug industry on its own is big enough to keep the cash economy alive. Cash isn't going anywhere. 

Might have to start using euros, but that's OK. The foreigners sensibly have large denomination notes too, €200 and €500, which is great for criminals and luddites 

The £ is going to tank after Brexit anyway. Start stashing euros under your mattress now


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

BigTom said:


> danny's dad's budgeting methods. You'll have a balance displayed in the app


 Actual cheek splitting grin here.

You can show him how to do it. I’d love to watch, though. Out of sight preferably.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

BigTom said:


> Phone apps will sort that problem out, same with danny's dad's budgeting methods.


They already do. You can put all sorts of limits on spending with RBS online/phone banking and I doubt other banks are any different. This idea that you can only keep track of spending when using cash doesn't hold much water for anyone who's capable of using a thumbprint to open the app.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 6, 2019)

twentythreedom said:


> The drug industry on its own is big enough to keep the cash economy alive. Cash isn't going anywhere.
> 
> Might have to start using euros, but that's OK. The foreigners sensibly have large denomination notes too, €200 and €500, which is great for criminals and luddites
> 
> The £ is going to tank after Brexit anyway. Start stashing euros under your mattress now



They’ve ditched the €500 note specifically because only drug dealers were said to use it.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Actual cheek splitting grin here.
> 
> You can show him how to do it. I’d love to watch, though. Out of sight preferably.



Like i said, there's a world of issues and access to the technology and the knowledge to use it. 

My point was that if you like to budget by taking out a week's worth of cash and spending from that, you can do the same without cash, it's not a technical problem to do that digitally, or to be able to constantly see your balance like you can with cash.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

BigTom said:


> Like i said, there's a world of issues and access to the technology and the knowledge to use it.
> 
> My point was that if you like to budget by taking out a week's worth of cash and spending from that, you can do the same without cash, it's not a technical problem to do that digitally, or to be able to constantly see your balance like you can with cash.


I know. And actually it’s something I might personally consider. I just can’t get the image out of my mind of someone trying to talk my Dad through it (and indeed talk him into it first).

Hiding to nothing.


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 6, 2019)

One thing I'm surprised which hasn't been mentioned yet is the impact on homeless people, big issue sellers, beggaers & similar.

I used to give people asking for change money all the time but rarely do nowadays as I just don't have cash. 

I'd say only 10% max of my transactions are cash and them largely because the small extra job I do pays in cash


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2019)

gawkrodger said:


> One thing I'm surprised which hasn't been mentioned yet is the impact on homeless people, big issue sellers, beggaers & similar.


Pretty sure it has been mentioned. But yes, there are all manner of people for whom the smartphone option isn’t an option. They might not even have a bank account.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Mar 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yup. Worth quoting the words of the report again: "Poverty is the biggest indicator of cash dependency, not age".  It’s just going to make life even harder for some people.



^This.  A common way that people I know budget their money without a bank account, is to cash their check at a check-cashing establishment, and lose a percentage off the top.  Then, they take envelopes labeled for certain things:  "rent", "gasoline", "food", "booze", etc.  They pay cash wherever they can and get money orders for the rest, at an additional percentage off the top.  In rural areas this is getting more and more difficult.  A lot of things are paid online now, and many rural areas still don't have broadband.  Even with broadband, there's a learning curve in learning how to use it.  Its getting more and more difficult even if you have a bank account as well, as rural banks close or consolidate.  Here's a map of broadband access for the US:







As you can see there are rural areas (in yellow) that completely drop off.  There's some efforts to change this.  Elon Musk has a plan (using micro-satellites), but I'm not sure how viable it is.  Another option is to use vacant tv white space to establish local hubs.  The range is about 10 miles from the base. 

<edited to add>
Even if you access things through a phone, there's also gaps in wireless coverage in rural areas.  At my mother's house, I have to drive outside town and stand on the highest point to even get a weak signal.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 6, 2019)

With respect, you can’t just go “there’s an app for that” and solve the problems of poverty linked to technology and the ‘advancement’ of capitalism. There’s a pile of innumerate people, for example,  thanks to a poor education system who don't understand numbers, let alone minus numbers, but do understand the lack of a physical presence of money in the pocket when it comes to paying for a pint/the electric bill etc.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 6, 2019)

gawkrodger said:


> One thing I'm surprised which hasn't been mentioned yet is the impact on homeless people, big issue sellers, beggaers & similar.
> 
> I used to give people asking for change money all the time but rarely do nowadays as I just don't have cash.
> 
> I'd say only 10% max of my transactions are cash and them largely because the small extra job I do pays in cash



'Sorry, I've only got my card': can the homeless adapt to cashless society?

'More and more homeless charities across Europe are finding ways of using contactless payments to directly support individuals. Last year, ad agency N=5 grabbed headlines with its trial of the Helping Heart contactless jacket, which allows passersby to donate €1 by tapping a card reader on the chest of the homeless person’s coat. *The money can only be spent on products nominated in liaison with the individual’s local shelter*. The agency hopes to begin a full-scale pilot as soon as possible.'


my bold. Dodge imo


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 6, 2019)

DotCommunist yeah it is dodge. Typical paternalistic "solution" to the "problem" of beggars. I guess in the short term they can mix up getting the odd pound coin with card donations but you can see the direction of travel.

Raises the question of what homeless people who beg will do when they have substance/booze dependencies?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Mar 6, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> 'Sorry, I've only got my card': can the homeless adapt to cashless society?
> 
> 'More and more homeless charities across Europe are finding ways of using contactless payments to directly support individuals. Last year, ad agency N=5 grabbed headlines with its trial of the Helping Heart contactless jacket, which allows passersby to donate €1 by tapping a card reader on the chest of the homeless person’s coat. *The money can only be spent on products nominated in liaison with the individual’s local shelter*. The agency hopes to begin a full-scale pilot as soon as possible.'
> 
> ...



Where I live anyone can pay for a $5 meal at one of several restaurants in the area where homeless folks gather.  If you can't pay, you can pick up one of these meals for free.   It's not anywhere near the same as cash in hand, but at least you won't starve (You might freeze to death instead, as at least two have done this winter.  And, its seriously paternalistic).  There's a long way to go in improving access to needed cash and services.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 6, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> The drug dealers in Ibiza were accepting cards already a couple of years back.  Just link a smartphone to a card reader and off you go, simple really.


Isn't that a bit incriminating? For both buyer and seller?
Also I bet there's scam machines dealers could use to scrape your details.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 6, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Also I bet there's scam machines dealers could use to scrape your details.


Could be interesting explaining to your bank what went wrong when you get ripped off.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 6, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> 'Sorry, I've only got my card': can the homeless adapt to cashless society?
> 
> 'More and more homeless charities across Europe are finding ways of using contactless payments to directly support individuals. Last year, ad agency N=5 grabbed headlines with its trial of the Helping Heart contactless jacket, which allows passersby to donate €1 by tapping a card reader on the chest of the homeless person’s coat. *The money can only be spent on products nominated in liaison with the individual’s local shelter*. The agency hopes to begin a full-scale pilot as soon as possible.'
> 
> ...



I have seen on more US heavy forums comments about homeless people using venmo for cashless transactions. Still needs a smartphone but there's no charity taking a cut.


----------



## Cid (Mar 6, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> With respect, you can’t just go “there’s an app for that” and solve the problems of poverty linked to technology and the ‘advancement’ of capitalism. There’s a pile of innumerate people, for example,  thanks to a poor education system who don't understand numbers, let alone minus numbers, but do understand the lack of a physical presence of money in the pocket when it comes to paying for a pint/the electric bill etc.



I'm not sure anyone (on here) would argue that the move away from cash is outright a good thing... Just that the problems that most people will encounter will have solutions, and the convenience will mean that most people will move in that direction. It will happen.

Though a move away from cash and the 'end of cash' are very different things.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 6, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Isn't that a bit incriminating? For both buyer and seller?
> Also I bet there's scam machines dealers could use to scrape your details.


We need contactless bitcoin cards asap


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 6, 2019)

Will catch up properly with this thread later at some point 

But I'm a use cash as much as possible type and always have been. It's largely about monitoring, and trying!  to keep control over, how much cash needs to go in/how much remains in your wallet when in the pub(s), at a festival, etc etc.Using your card as cash and you've no idea what's going out of your account.

And here in Swansea, where Oyster cards are useless   , I'm a change/coin-collecting obsessive! Mostly for bus reasons, it's hard even to accept that you can pay bus fares by card -- that only came in a nanosecond ago FFS ..... 

I obviously do use cards sometimes to pay for larger bills (supermarkets, etc. -- and I try to use tills with humans!  ).

But I'm still *very* reluctant to pay at the bar with a card -- even now that contactless makes that far less _*fucking annoying*_ than it used to be when you were stuck behind the cashless ones 

If "they" abolish cash machines I'd be screwed .......


----------



## binka (Mar 6, 2019)

I use cash and card about 50/50 and always like to have at least twenty quid in my wallet. Call me paranoid if you like but I don't really want an ongoing permanent record of every time and place I've frittered away money on nonsense. I'm going to be applying for a mortgage this summer, I need to be able to keep some secrets


----------



## 8ball (Mar 6, 2019)

New payment tech meshes very well with existing price opacity technologies to effectively control what people buy, and at what price.

It is about handing all agency to the powerful.

People talking about 5 seconds less queuing at a bar remind me of those people who thought joining the Euro was a great idea because they wouldn’t have to change money when going on holiday.

Future intelligent life will likely define us as a form of plankton that had bank accounts.


----------



## moomoo (Mar 6, 2019)

The worst thing about this almost cashless society is that when you’re absolutely skint, the penny jar has practically nothing in it.


----------



## gentlegreen (Mar 7, 2019)




----------



## hash tag (Mar 7, 2019)

A cashless society will hit the less well off the most especially those on benefits or with mental health issues who could struggle to get a bank account.
I note that at least two local supermarkets have card only tills. Of course buses round here will not accept cash.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 7, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Isn't that a bit incriminating? For both buyer and seller?
> Also I bet there's scam machines dealers could use to scrape your details.



It's Ibiza, most of the dealers are probably coppers on their day off.  The payment is funneled through some local bar and that is what comes up on the credit card statement. You'd certainly be looking to cancel the card ASAP mind.



hash tag said:


> A cashless society will hit the less well off the most especially those on benefits or with mental health issues who could struggle to get a bank account.
> I note that at least two local supermarkets have card only tills. Of course buses round here will not accept cash.



In London I don't really have a problem with buses not accepting cash. The Oyster system is so prevalent and you can use cash to top up.  Accepting cash puts drivers as risk of being held up and attacked, particularly on late night services..  It used to happen from time to time in my old home town.  Anyway if you're really brassed most drivers will let you on gratis.


----------



## Idaho (Mar 7, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> Bristol Pound – Our city. Our money.
> 
> The Brixton Pound - Money that sticks to Brixton - B£
> 
> ...


Maybe not:

Totnes pound: Currency killed by 'cashless economy'


----------



## Cid (Mar 7, 2019)

This is the wechat wallet interface...



If I click money in the top left, it will bring up a qr code that I wave in front of a store’s scanner to pay... I can also use it to receive money or split a bill (I won’t show that bit as it’s probably unique). The rest is pretty self explanatory... also you can budget somewhat by limiting how much you pay into your wallet (though it’ll draw from a linked card too, could probably be switched off). 

Scroll down to the third party bit and you get train’s planes and... taxis. Also hotels, cinema tickets and businesses.

Then, on the chat interface (similar to WhatsApp), you get this;



Red packet lets you make a sort of gift... transfer is just more formal. Both free to do.

Essentially many of the things that you normally need to access a bank account for, set up a direct debit, or book through individual websites are integrated. From a retailer point of view it means no transaction fees (at least for very small businesses), simple accounting etc. 

The main point is that that level of integration works phenomenally well. For anyone with even a basic level of knowledge it is far simpler than managing different billing systems... further to that you also get official accounts that work kind of like websites, this is jiangsu (province of which nanjing is capital) travel health centre:

 

You can check services, book appointments etc. So effectively much of the boring shit in your life can be monitored through one easy to use app. 

Reason I go into that much detail is to show how effectively this kind of system can work. And if that ever becomes an option here, I think the vast majority of people would use it.

There are clearly greater ‘problems’ with adoption here though. Security concerns, surveillance, different types of competitive behaviour/law... I dunno, be kind of interesting to see exactly why it hasn’t been tried properly yet.

I am sure some people will be left behind, but the operation of capital doesn’t care. It’s possibly somewhat reassuring to know that China (even the most developed cities) are still a long way off dropping cash... it might be a generational change rather than a technological one to finally kill it off.


----------



## xenon (Mar 7, 2019)

I don't agree with making it more difficult to pay with cash, for the same reasons already given. I am going to say contactless payment has been a big benefit to me and others like me though.

Getting cash for blind people is a PITA. In my case, there's only one brand of ATM I know how to use. Some you have to press enter on after tapping in your pin, others not. There are loads of buttons that are in no logical order. Why's £200 beneath £50 and not £100, which is on the other side... You can't exactly practise on another one. Sure some are accessible to blind people as they have headphone sockets. But these are rare;you need to use an ap to find the nearest one; and IME it's a fucking stupid idea to be faffing about with headphones and thus losing some awareness of your surroundings whilst trying to withdraw cash in the street. So no thankyouverymuch.


----------



## xenon (Mar 7, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> And McDonalds.
> 
> WTF?



The landlord of my local has occasionly used them to bring him a coffee and cake from a place a few hundred yards away.  He keeps the price of a pint down though so is alright by me.


----------



## Sue (Mar 7, 2019)

I'm not working at the moment so I've just been to the supermarket. The thing that really struck me was that nobody was using the self-service tills -- there are quite a lot of them and normally there's a massive queue -- which are mainly card payment only. The three people in front of me at the checkout all paid with cash -- normally when I go in the evening or at the weekend, pretty much everyone pays by card. 

Obviously the demographic is quite different during the day to the weekend/evening -- lots of older people, more visibly disabled people, people who're not working for whatever reason -- but it certainly felt like cash was king.

(I much prefer cash to using a card as I find it easier to keep track of my spending. Goes back to the days when I was really skint and had to be really careful with what I was spending. Card payments were obviously less common then too.)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 7, 2019)

moomoo said:


> The worst thing about this almost cashless society is that when you’re absolutely skint, the penny jar has practically nothing in it.



Weighed in my piggy bank last week to bridge the gap between running out of miney and payday. Over twenty quid. Enough for a few days' shopping.

Trick is to put 5p coins in there as well as coppers.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 7, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Maybe not:
> 
> Totnes pound: Currency killed by 'cashless economy'



I suppose the Totnes pound was bound to be the first to go, that town is tiny and mostly populated by trustafarians who all have top-notch mobiles and laptops.

May take a bit longer to fade away in Bristol, Brixton and Liverpool .. and by that I mean I suspect they will go from strength to strength as society becomes more cashless, because of large ~poor~ populations (which Totnes, in all honesty, doesn't have)

EtA, I missed Exeter, which apparently has its own pound since 2015.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 7, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> well yeah, the Totnes pound was bound to be the first to go, that town is tiny and mostly populated by trustafarians who all have top-notch mobiles and laptops.
> 
> May take a bit longer to fade away in Bristol, Brixton and Liverpool .. and by that I mean I suspect they will go from strength to strength as society becomes more cashless, because of large ~poor~ populations (which Totnes, in all honesty, doesn't have)



Why are poorer people more likely to use local currencies?


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 7, 2019)

Because it's cash, and there's a correlation between poverty and cash use (as I understand it from things posted on this thread)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 7, 2019)

Sue said:


> I'm not working at the moment so I've just been to the supermarket. The thing that really struck me was that nobody was using the self-service tills -- there are quite a lot of them and normally there's a massive queue -- which are mainly card payment only. The three people in front of me at the checkout all paid with cash -- normally when I go in the evening or at the weekend, pretty much everyone pays by card.
> 
> Obviously the demographic is quite different during the day to the weekend/evening -- lots of older people, more visibly disabled people, people who're not working for whatever reason -- but it certainly felt like cash was king.
> 
> (I much prefer cash to using a card as I find it easier to keep track of my spending. Goes back to the days when I was really skint and had to be really careful with what I was spending. Card payments were obviously less common then too.)



At the local supermarket half the scab tills are card only. There's usually a queue for the cash ones and several card ones unused. This is a poor area with lots of recent immigrants, which may well be a factor.


----------



## quimcunx (Mar 7, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Yep, fair enough Danny, never realised that.
> 
> I'm all respectable these days, but there were many years in my past when I wasn't, in that I was unemployed and did what I had to survive. All those years I relied on knowing exactly how much money I had and exactly how much money I was spending. In order not to get into crippling debt, that was essential. To which end, I cannot imagine doing that (and I did it for quite some time) 'contactless'. It's a no-brainer. It's easier to carry around in your pocket what you have, and be able to count it, than to keep track of random numbers you flash a card at. I'm not sure money will ever disappear, but any moves towards no money will mess with poor people's lives and ability to budget.
> 
> With money, contactless is easier. who'd have thunk capitalism would try and progress by making it easier for people who 'play the game' while fucking the poor even more eh?



There are loads of budgeting apps out there these days.  Whether any of them are actually any good for this I don't know.


----------



## Idaho (Mar 7, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> I suppose the Totnes pound was bound to be the first to go, that town is tiny and mostly populated by trustafarians who all have top-notch mobiles and laptops.
> 
> May take a bit longer to fade away in Bristol, Brixton and Liverpool .. and by that I mean I suspect they will go from strength to strength as society becomes more cashless, because of large ~poor~ populations (which Totnes, in all honesty, doesn't have)
> 
> EtA, I missed Exeter, which apparently has its own pound since 2015.


In my humble opinion, I think you've got it entirely backwards. Totnes is a small, insular town full of old people. Should be ideal for a localist and conservative money project like this local currency. Bristol has a larger, younger and less loyal population who are much less likely to faff around with actual cash and the few retailers who actually accept it.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 7, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Weighed in my piggy bank last week to bridge the gap between running out of miney and payday. Over twenty quid. Enough for a few days' shopping.
> Trick is to put 5p coins in there as well as coppers.


I have one of those electronic counter jars, all coins 50p or smaller get put in it when I get home, the purchasing power of sub £1 coins is too low for it to be worthwhile carrying them around with me. When the jar is full it gets emptied into the banks coin counting machine.
I checked my bank statements last night as a result of this thread and I've used my card(s) 32 times (both contactless and chip n pin) in the last month, there were a couple of big transactions but most are between £10 and £100.
I've used the ATM 4 times to draw out a total of £180 and  I still have £44 of it on my person. I remember spending about £30 in the curry house about 3 weeks ago and £20 in the pub last weekend but the rest will all be small transactions so I'm still averaging about £3 a day spend in cash.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 7, 2019)

Idaho said:


> In my humble opinion, I think you've got it entirely backwards. Totnes is a small, insular town full of old people. Should be ideal for a localist and conservative money project like this local currency. Bristol has a larger, younger and less loyal population who are much less likely to faff around with actual cash and the few retailers who actually accept it.



I know what you mean, and that's why the scheme was begun. But Totnes has changed, the last 10-20 years has seen quite an influx of hippies, and a particular kind of well-to-do hippy at that. Generally it appears to be quite an affluent place these days, and it doesn't surprise me at all if the local currency can no longer function because of cashless payment uptake.


----------



## Idaho (Mar 7, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> I know what you mean, and that's why the scheme was begun. But Totnes has changed, the last 10-20 years has seen quite an influx of hippies, and a particular kind of well-to-do hippy at that. Generally it appears to be quite an affluent place these days, and it doesn't surprise me at all if the local currency can no longer function because of cashless payment uptake.


My guess is that wealth is not a significant factor in the uptake of local currencies. More likely its age. An older person who has an established shopping routine would be much more likely to use it. Younger people would rather just have convenience facilitated by technology.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 7, 2019)

It might equally be local businesses deciding not to bother accepting it any more, there appear to be a lot of new businesses there right now. I don't go that often, but over the last ten years or so in several visits I've noticed a great deal of change on the high street in terms who who is selling what (like all high streets, I suppose) .. and I imagine the old greengrocer was more inclined to accept Totnes quids than the shoe shop that replaced it.

Or maybe the old people are just buying new phones.


----------



## Combustible (Mar 7, 2019)

Cid said:


> From a retailer point of view it means no transaction fees (at least for very small businesses), simple accounting etc.



I believe there are still transaction fees to transfer from wechat wallet and Alipay to a bank account, although it is small, around 0.1%. And a small retailer may not need to put it the bank at all.


----------



## bemused (Mar 7, 2019)

I hardly use cash, the £20 in my wallet just in case has been there months.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Mar 7, 2019)

xenon said:


> I don't agree with making it more difficult to pay with cash, for the same reasons already given. I am going to say contactless payment has been a big benefit to me and others like me though.
> 
> Getting cash for blind people is a PITA. In my case, there's only one brand of ATM I know how to use. Some you have to press enter on after tapping in your pin, others not. There are loads of buttons that are in no logical order. Why's £200 beneath £50 and not £100, which is on the other side... You can't exactly practise on another one. Sure some are accessible to blind people as they have headphone sockets. But these are rare;you need to use an ap to find the nearest one; and IME it's a fucking stupid idea to be faffing about with headphones and thus losing some awareness of your surroundings whilst trying to withdraw cash in the street. So no thankyouverymuch.



Thanks for bringing this up.  I was diagnosed with a condition that will likely be limiting my sight in 5-10 years so its something I'll have to start planning for the future.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 7, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> I have one of those electronic counter jars, all coins 50p or smaller get put in it when I get home



I'm not that poor at all, but I wish I could afford to chuck all 50p and lower coins into a jar!



> , the purchasing power of sub £1 coins is too low for it to be worthwhile carrying them around with me



Bollocks, of you want to go into a Wetherspoons that charges (say ) £2:15 a pint (as today , here in Swansea) and you want to break a note for a pint and then get more £1= or £2= mins back in change!
And a few older people on Urban may be aware of the exact cost of "certain newspapers" at the moment 

Also, my day tickets on the to/from work bus cost £4:50, and bus drivers *LOVE *me for almost never needing to give them a note. As I said before, the card-using bus fare paying thingy is a nanosecond old round here, and they haven't bothered with introducing an Oystercard here in West Wales.

If they introduced systems on buses round here -- an area that's pretty poor in many districts, with lots of cash-dependance -- which were cashless-only, there'd be trouble ahead.



> When the jar is full it gets emptied into the banks coin counting machine



Don't those charge interest? (  )


----------



## 8ball (Mar 7, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> I'm not that poor at all, but I wish I could afford to chuck all 50p and lower coins into a jar!



You do know it's *your* jar, right?


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 7, 2019)

Sure, but I'm a non-saver by temperament ;p  

Saying that, I've got a literally massive box of  2ps and 1ps. I've scarcely spent any of those since I moved here at the end of 2008.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 7, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> Sure, but I'm a non-saver by temperament ;p
> 
> Saying that, I've got a literally massive box of  2ps and 1ps. I've scarcely spent any of those since I moved here at the end of 2008.



I put coppers and 5ps in a jar, then when it fills it goes to the charity shop.
I guess these days 10s and 20s should be going in, considering I'm a tightwad with no standing orders to any charities.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 7, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> Don't those charge interest? (  )


Nope, they count them up and give you a slip that you take to the counter that you can then use to pay the money into your account. They even give you a breakdown of the coins
you've tipped in. At least the Natwest one does, I've never used one anywhere else.
It's like a kind of toploading washing machine that the money spins round in and you can see it bouncing about. Once or twice the slip has listed more than the counter on my jar so
I suspect that with all the coins bouncing about one or two get counted but then get thrown up again. The difference is never very great though.


----------



## sovereignb (Mar 7, 2019)

i thought it was obvious it was heading this way from when buses stopped taking cash. I tend to carry cash and use my card with pin only, but notice how many people seem to pay by phone and contactless. I've never understood why banks introduced contactless...easier for their money to be stolen???
There seems to be attempts to keep cash in circulation...i read somewhere about banks paying shops to give cashback as ATMs and branches reduce. Yet at the same time i understand the time and safety benefits for businesses, as hearing about the card only pub on the news yesterday.
I do find our reliance on apps for...just about everything very cyborgy if i'm honest.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 7, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> Also, my day tickets on the to/from work bus cost £4:50, and bus drivers *LOVE *me for almost never needing to give them a note. As I said before, the card-using bus fare paying thingy is a nanosecond old round here, and they haven't bothered with introducing an Oystercard here in West Wales.


Here in the East Midlands (not an area known for bleeding edge tech) we have the Mango Card which does the same job as an Oyster Card, they're very useful, I have one and I have a car.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 8, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Here in the East Midlands (not an area known for bleeding edge tech)...



Yeah, lull those Londonites into a false sense of security.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 8, 2019)

MickiQ : This part of Wales has yet to show _an_y signs of catching up with that! 

But I don't at all mind cash anyway, and neither do my happy work bus drivers who never have to change notes from me! 
Anyway, in Wales, pensioners' cards kick in at 60 ... not at all that long to go for *SWMNBAALM*** 

**Someone Who Might Not Be At All Like Me


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 1, 2019)

Exclusive: 1,250 free ATMs started charging fees in just one month – Which? News

Another nail in the coffin...


----------



## Throbbing Angel (May 1, 2019)

Lancaster pub goes card payment only after ‘huge decline’ in cash spending

I don't like this
PursuedByBears


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 1, 2019)

Bloody Lancaster hipsters.


----------



## PursuedByBears (May 1, 2019)

Throbbing Angel said:


> Lancaster pub goes card payment only after ‘huge decline’ in cash spending
> 
> I don't like this
> PursuedByBears


While I'm not a big fan of the Borough as I don't really like their food or beer, I always tend to pay by contactless on my phone in a pub these days as I don't usually carry cash any more.


----------



## Teaboy (May 1, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Exclusive: 1,250 free ATMs started charging fees in just one month – Which? News
> 
> Another nail in the coffin...



Yeah I noticed a few previously free to use cashpoints round my way have suddenly started charging.  Not a problem for me as I have plenty of options but a real kicker if your choices are limited.


----------



## editor (Jan 24, 2020)

More of this please 









						New York City bans stores from refusing to accept cash
					

Critics argue that refusing to accept cash discriminates against undocumented and homeless people.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## ska invita (Jan 24, 2020)

Apols if already said: Heard a thing on the radio about physical bank closures which are rampant. Business have to go regularly to the bank to drop off takings. In some places this now means a long drive - an hour+ each way in some rural areas. This in turn is leading to those businesses going cashless


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Heard a thing on the radio about physical bank closures which are rampant. Business have to go regularly to the bank to drop off takings. In some places this now means a long drive - an hour+ each way in some rural areas. This in turn is leading to those businesses going cashless


ach they've been closing for years, the number of former bank premises is probably greater than the number of remaining bank premises.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> ach they've been closing for years, the number of former bank premises is probably greater than the number of remaining bank premises.


a third of branches shut in last 4 years according to FT






" Which areas have been hit hardest? The worst affected areas in the UK are rural. Which? data revealed that if you are one of 98,000 people in the Wentworth and Dearne parliamentary constituency in Yorkshire, you won’t find a bank branch anywhere in the area. North East Derbyshire and Stoke-on-Trent North both lost four-fifths of their branches and Devon saw an 81 per cent reduction. Wales lost two-fifths of its network and Scotland saw a hefty decrease of 38 per cent. Eleven branches in Scotland were also found to open for just one day a week and, UK-wide, 45 opened for just two days a week. "


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> a third of branches shut in last 4 years according to FT


yeh a third of the remaining branches. but if you go back further, say to 2000, you'll see a fuck load more have closed.


----------



## StoneRoad (Jan 24, 2020)

As a charity collector for the RNLI, I would have a real problem with a cashless society, as many of the coins that are dropped into * my * boxes do so on a spur of the moment decision. 
As with 'store collections' the choice to donate is made on the spot as people pass by the collector's bucket.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 24, 2020)

Has anybody asked the SPGB for their view on the dawn of a cashless society


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> ach they've been closing for years, the number of former bank premises is probably greater than the number of remaining bank premises.


  Or more accurately, the number of former banks now operating as pubs is greater than the number of open banks


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 24, 2020)

And probably don’t take cash now either


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jan 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Apols if already said: Heard a thing on the radio about physical bank closures which are rampant. Business have to go regularly to the bank to drop off takings. In some places this now means a long drive - an hour+ each way in some rural areas. This in turn is leading to those businesses going cashless



Most banks have an arrangement with the Post Office to operate basic banking services, paying in cheques/cash & withdrawing cash, for both private & business customers. 

I use the sub-PO just up the road from me, rather than buggering about going into town, with the added bonus that the PO is paid a fee by the bank.


----------



## pogofish (Jan 24, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Most banks have an arrangement with the Post Office to operate basic banking services, paying in cheques/cash & withdrawing cash, for both private & business customers.



Which then brings us to the closure of post offices - which has also been hitting hard in recent years.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 24, 2020)

I like cash but I am using contactless more than I expected I would. Just got an RFI shielded wallet so I have to take the card out or at least open the wallet, will have to experiment.

Anyhow I do like cash though, slight pain is that when paying by cash people often don't offer a receipt.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 24, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I like cash but I am using contactless more than I expected I would. Just got an RFI shielded wallet so I have to take the card out or at least open the wallet, will have to experiment.
> 
> Anyhow I do like cash though, slight pain is that when paying by cash people often don't offer a receipt.



I've seen those wallets advertised but I don't really understand, you have to take them out and scan them anyway, or at least I do. I can understand if it's a fraud thing, if people have gadgets that can scan and take money without you realising but what difference does it make for the things in shops


----------



## weltweit (Jan 24, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I've seen those wallets advertised but I don't really understand, you have to take them out and scan them anyway, or at least I do. I can understand if it's a fraud thing, if people have gadgets that can scan and take money without you realising but what difference does it make for the things in shops


Wasn't there a scare that scammers with electronics skills could extract £30 a time just by brushing up against you?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 24, 2020)

weltweit said:


> Wasn't there a scare that scammers with electronics skills could extract £30 a time just by brushing up against you?



Dunno but I've never heard of this actually happening


----------



## weltweit (Jan 24, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Dunno but I've never heard of this actually happening


Indeed, me neither.

On the positive side my new wallet is supposed to be buffalo hide, it smells great!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 24, 2020)

Can’t even think when I last used cash


----------



## weltweit (Jan 24, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Can’t even think when I last used cash


I used cash Wednesday for some shopping and because I needed two pound coins.


----------



## petee (Jan 24, 2020)

weltweit said:


> Wasn't there a scare that scammers with electronics skills could extract £30 a time just by brushing up against you?



i haven't heard that but here in NYC people have paid twice for a subway ride because they used the Metrocard but the scanners currently being installed were close enough to a card or phone or whatever that they also took a fare. 









						Some Subway Riders Are Being Double-Charged Thanks To Greedy OMNY Scanners
					

Multiple people tell Gothamist that they've recently swiped through the system with an old-fashioned MetroCard, only to later realize that they were charged by OMNY on top of their standard fare.



					gothamist.com


----------



## binka (Jan 24, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Dunno but I've never heard of this actually happening


It happened to my boss, in London of course


----------



## Throbbing Angel (Jan 24, 2020)

Throbbing Angel said:


> Lancaster pub goes card payment only after ‘huge decline’ in cash spending
> 
> I don't like this
> PursuedByBears



btw, this pub went back on this within 6 months


----------



## og ogilby (Jan 24, 2020)

As a business, it costs me .7% to bank cash which is a significant cost, especially when you take into consideration I am collecting 20% VAT for the tax man and I'm getting charged to take and bank that too. A fair number of my customers think they're doing me a favour by going to the cash machine so they can pay me in cash instead of on a card.


----------



## imposs1904 (Jan 24, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Has anybody asked the SPGB for their view on the dawn of a cashless society



Don't fret, PT, they've been preparing themselves:

Towards a Cashless Society? (2014)

Cashless but Not Profitless (2016)

Cashless is Not Moneyless (2015)

Abolish Money – But Not Now (2017)


----------



## weltweit (Jan 24, 2020)

og ogilby said:


> As a business, it costs me .7% to bank cash which is a significant cost, especially when you take into consideration I am collecting 20% VAT for the tax man and I'm getting charged to take and bank that too. A fair number of my customers think they're doing me a favour by going to the cash machine so they can pay me in cash instead of on a card.


How does that compare to costs of CC / DC?


----------



## og ogilby (Jan 24, 2020)

weltweit said:


> How does that compare to costs of CC / DC?


Debit cards are about .4% credit cards about .7% but it does depend on the type of card. Some CC can be as much as 2% but fortunately not many people use those ones.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jan 24, 2020)

og ogilby said:


> As a business, it costs me .7% to bank cash which is a significant cost, especially when you take into consideration I am collecting 20% VAT for the tax man and I'm getting charged to take and bank that too. A fair number of my customers think they're doing me a favour by going to the cash machine so they can pay me in cash instead of on a card.



My Santander business account allows me to bank up to £1000 a month of cash over the counter for free, and totally free with no limit if I pay-in using the machine. 





__





						Business Banking | Finance For SMEs | Santander UK
					

Explore Santander UK's range of business banking services and discover how we can help your company manage its finances. Find out more at Santander.co.uk.




					www.santander.co.uk


----------



## weltweit (Jan 24, 2020)

binka said:


> It happened to my boss, in London of course


What exactly happened to them?


----------



## og ogilby (Jan 24, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> My Santander business account allows me to bank up to £1000 a month of cash over the counter for free, and totally free with no limit if I pay-in using the machine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HSBC have allowed me to bank all my cash for free for years if I put it in my business savings account but last time I went to the bank they told me I could no longer pay into the savings account, it has to go into my current account which has the .7% charge. I'll have a look at the Santander because they do have a branch handy for me.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jan 24, 2020)

og ogilby said:


> HSBC have allowed me to bank all my cash for free for years if I put it in my business savings account but last time I went to the bank they told me I could no longer pay into the savings account, it has to go into my current account which has the .7% charge. I'll have a look at the Santander because they do have a branch handy for me.



I was lucky, I got £3k to switch to them as part of the RBS/NatWest forced business account switching scheme, I am now paying less in charges (£5 pm introductory offer, £12.50 standard monthly fee, to cover everything), plus £100 cashback each year based on turn-over, and a fairly pointless 0.1% interest on the balance. 

Even  on the £12.50 pm fee, once the £100 cashback is taken off, I'll only be paying £50 a year, bloody bargain!


----------



## Idaho (Jan 24, 2020)

The issue with removing cash is that you are then entirely reliant on banks and third party transactors to be willing to let you buy or sell. You could, through malice, fraud, political campaign or incompetence, be rendered completely switched off economically.


----------



## campanula (Jan 24, 2020)

I really can't see my local skag and rock dealers offering contactless cashback schemes (or whatever) despite  eye-watering amounts of money flowing through the black economy...
I am sure this has been mentioned downthread but I am just off to cook my dinner and haven't got time to check.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jan 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> you can't pay by cash in london on the bus


True. But you still need change in London for the public bogs!


----------



## Idaho (Jan 24, 2020)

campanula said:


> I really can't see my local skag and rock dealers offering contactless cashback schemes


So how will they transact when payments are all traceable and controlled?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 24, 2020)

Idaho said:


> So how will they transact when payments are all traceable and controlled?


contactless bitcoin


----------



## Idaho (Jan 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> contactless bitcoin


Bitcoin is readily traceable at the moment.

e2a - although it's not controllable in the same sense, so it's halfway there.

But either way, you still need an expensive device to pay.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 24, 2020)

Herbie's pizza, cash only, except online.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 24, 2020)

Lots if people can’t get bank accounts due their immigration status or homelessness or financial abuse. I can’t see this changing anytime soon (although HSBC have now launched an account specifically for those with no fixed address / where they can’t give out an address / have little to no ID). Cash is vital for them, it’s basic fucking survival. But as Danny and others have said, it’s the poorest who will suffer most and be left out.


----------



## Idaho (Jan 24, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> But as Danny and others have said, it’s the poorest who will suffer most and be left out.


They certainly will, but they will _have_ to transact. How will they do it without cash?


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 24, 2020)

Idaho said:


> They certainly will, but they will _have_ to transact. How will they do it without cash?



They won’t be able to at all unless there are huge changes made to allow them access.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 24, 2020)

Cash has declined since there have been alternatives but each alternative seems to have replaced the previous one. 

So we had cheques followed by credit cards followed by chip and pin followed by contactless and yet we still use cash.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2020)

LeytonCatLady said:


> True. But you still need change in London for the public bogs!


Not at eg Victoria. There's a twitter account for free loos in London, This Twitter Account Is Cataloguing All Of London's Loo Codes


----------



## Idaho (Jan 24, 2020)

purenarcotic said:


> They won’t be able to at all unless there are huge changes made to allow them access.


The point I'm trying to make is that they _will. _It will be cans of soup, phone credit, slaves, stamps, crypto, Morrisons reward points, silver, something! There has  been a currency for thousands of years even it came with all kinds of implications.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jan 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Not at eg Victoria. There's a twitter account for free loos in London, This Twitter Account Is Cataloguing All Of London's Loo Codes


Ah nice one! I'll be spreading the feck out of that among my visiting family and friends who don't live here.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 25, 2020)

Does anyone know if the actual proportion of transactions paid in cash has been reducing and if so what proportion of transactions are actually made in cash now?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 25, 2020)

weltweit said:


> Does anyone know if the actual proportion of transactions paid in cash has been reducing and if so what proportion of transactions are actually made in cash now?


See story in the OP as well as the actual report mentioned.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 25, 2020)

How about a quick live poll, how much cash you have with you at this moment?

I have 14 pounds and 72p


----------



## Riklet (Jan 25, 2020)

Cash isnt going anywhere any time soon.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 25, 2020)

Riklet said:


> Cash isnt going anywhere any time soon.


Indeed I tend to agree. However it is interesting that contactless seems to be reducing our reliance on cash much more than cheques or credit cards managed to.


----------



## 8115 (Jan 25, 2020)

weltweit said:


> How about a quick live poll, how much cash you have with you at this moment?
> 
> I have 14 pounds and 72p


£6. I put the change in the penny jar the other day, that is why I know and it's so exact. I actually don't use cash that much anymore, I'll use a card normally. In smaller shops is about the only place they have a card limit any more. Even cafes round here tend to take cards for a coffee. I prefer using card because I spend less, cash (used to) burn a hole in my pocket.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 25, 2020)

When I use my card it seems I always get a receipt and as I'm budgeting at the moment this is great. But when I use cash I often don't get a receipt so have to ask for one. Why is it so rare to get a receipt when using cash?


----------



## weltweit (Jan 25, 2020)

8115 said:


> ..
> I prefer using card because I spend less, cash (used to) burn a hole in my pocket.


I'm not sure that I spend less when using the card, in fact I don't really even register the amount when I'm paying with the card.

Where as when I'm handing over notes and coins it seems to be more real for me.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 25, 2020)

The only time Ive seen contactless in Portugal aside from Porto and Lisbon  is at the big supermarkets or at Guia shopping centre. plenty of bars and restuarants in the countryside  have signs up saying no multi banco ie no payment by card.


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 25, 2020)

weltweit said:


> How about a quick live poll, how much cash you have with you at this moment?
> 
> I have 14 pounds and 72p



£3.76. Definitely use cash less and less.

As for receipts, in Chile it’s illegal not to give a receipt for everything. And I mean everything. 40p sandwich? You get a receipt. I presume it’s to cut down on tax evasion. The39thStep do you think the no payment by card in Portugal is to do with tax evasion or is there another reason?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 25, 2020)

I agree with all the criticisms of restrictions on cash, although one advantage is less wastage of currency, so shrapnel lost downs sofas and left sitting in jam jars, lost notes etc, so there is that. Can't remember the figure but the amount of lost currency in pennies and 2ps is huge, hundreds of millions.

Mind you the shrapnel jars are basically my emergency fund and I do find these days it's less fruitful than it used to be, I used to change it into notes once a year and get about £80, last time I did it was first time in about two years and it was less than £40


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 25, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> £3.76. Definitely use cash less and less.
> 
> As for receipts, in Chile it’s illegal not to give a receipt for everything. And I mean everything. 40p sandwich? You get a receipt. I presume it’s to cut down on tax evasion. The39thStep do you think the no payment by card in Portugal is to do with tax evasion or is there another reason?


Not tax invasion , its the charges on card transactions . Most of these places earn a wage from running a bar/restuarant rather than becoming rich. its a very competive market locals quibble about an extra euro on the price of a plate of food. 10 cents on a bottle of beer.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 25, 2020)

weltweit said:


> How about a quick live poll, how much cash you have with you at this moment?
> 
> I have 14 pounds and 72p


35 euros and 80 cents. I've got  200 euros plus in my 'pennies jar' from last year


----------



## weltweit (Jan 25, 2020)

Just a note quite apart from the issue of cash we are likely to see the end of cheques in fact hasn't it already been announced that cheques are to be phased out?

My current bank account doesn't even issue a cheque book and I can't remember when I last used or received a cheque.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 25, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> One of my superpowers is the ability to render myself totally invisible to someone stood on the other side of a bar. An extra 60 secs stood at the bar is not a problem to me, I'm more than used to it



Hi, sorry to quote something 5 pages back as I'm catching up with the thread but if this is genuinely happening all the time you're probably doing something that's pissing the staff off


----------



## Idaho (Jan 25, 2020)

Riklet said:


> Cash isnt going anywhere any time soon.


20 years ago, if you tried to pay for drinks in a pub with a card you'd be laughed at. Now there are pubs that only use contactless.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jan 25, 2020)

Lots of chippies only take cash.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Jan 25, 2020)

weltweit said:


> How about a quick live poll, how much cash you have with you at this moment?
> 
> I have 14 pounds and 72p


£2.50, and that's for the girl's pocket money so not really mine


----------



## Riklet (Jan 25, 2020)

Idaho said:


> 20 years ago, if you tried to pay for drinks in a pub with a card you'd be laughed at. Now there are pubs that only use contactless.



I haven't been to any I dont think! I know they exist and granted I am not in London but cash is still being used in plenty of transactions. Not denying cash has decreased in usage and might continue to a bit more but I think it'll stabilise at some point. There are plenty of reasons for businesses not to shift to no cash operations.


----------



## imposs1904 (Jan 25, 2020)

I've got about $76 (plus change) in my pocket. 

Apart from using a card when doing the 'big shop', I prefer to use cash in shops. I'm one of those wankers who deliberately goes out with loads of small coins in their pocket and if a purchase is, for example, $1.89, insists on counting out the 89 cents in small change. Some bodega owners appreciate the small change, other bodega owners want to hit me around the head with the baseball bat hiding under their counter.


----------



## Big Bertha (Jan 25, 2020)

weltweit said:


> How about a quick live poll, how much cash you have with you at this moment?
> 
> I have 14 pounds and 72p


63p


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 25, 2020)

weltweit said:


> How about a quick live poll, how much cash you have with you at this moment?
> 
> I have 14 pounds and 72p


Five pounds and 30 euros in my wallet. No change.


----------



## Idaho (Jan 25, 2020)

Riklet said:


> I think it'll stabilise at some point. There are plenty of reasons for businesses not to shift to no cash operations.


Friendly question - What's your rationale for it being able to stabilise other than normalcy bias? It's already got to the tipping point where cashless is cheaper than cash, and the numbers of cash transactions is decreasing year on year with no sign of abating.

One of the main reasons for cash in small businesses is tax evasion - either directly, or getting favourable rates from suppliers by enabling their tax evasion. The state and the larger enterprises would rather be cashless. Who is going to fight for cash and why?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 25, 2020)

Don't have a penny on me and according to my online banking my last cash withdrawal was three weeks ago


----------



## weltweit (Jan 25, 2020)

Idaho said:


> ..
> One of the main reasons for cash in small businesses is tax evasion - either directly, or
> ..


Indeed I know a small business owner whose trade is 100% cash and he always has wads of notes which he's taken out of the business and I am sure he doesn't declare.


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 25, 2020)

Currently 2 x £10 notes & £8.37 in shrapnel 
However since we are at this very moment sat in Zizzi Cambridge waiting for our food I expect to pay with card and leave some of the shrapnel as a tip


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jan 26, 2020)

Cash constantly around my house, being rural obvs- for dinner money, bus money, several businesses here don’t do cards particularly pubs. When all our bank machines break down and you are out on the lash it’s a disaster! (I think bank machines in Orkney aren’t stocked with enough notes  as this happens in Stromness a lot)


----------



## Humberto (Jan 26, 2020)

What do you give the beggers?


----------



## Humberto (Jan 26, 2020)

wasn't meant at HoratioCuthbert   in particular

but if theres no cash beggers get nothing.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jan 26, 2020)

Humberto said:


> What do you give the beggers?


STOVIES


----------



## Humberto (Jan 26, 2020)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> STOVIES


 
Wouldn't even take the rest of my kebab the ungrateful bastard

#broken Britain


----------



## petee (Jan 26, 2020)

imposs1904 said:


> I'm one of those wankers who deliberately goes out with loads of small coins in their pocket and if a purchase is, for example, $1.89, insists on counting out the 89 cents in small change.



yeah, you just went onto my shit list.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 26, 2020)

The best thing about scab tills is they don't care if you just shovel loads of small change into them.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 26, 2020)

Always have a bit of cash around and tend to use still quite a lot. Having two young kids means there’s a rapid turnover of baby equipment and toys, often bought and sold via gumtree/Shpock where cash still rules. Plus still selling bits of furniture and odds and ends from my old house which people mainly buy with cash. Had a couple of hundred in the little cash pouch a few weeks back but have whittled it down to about thirty or so now. Also feels quite nice having a lot of your living off-radar.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 26, 2020)

My local village shop used to only take cards for purchases over £10, then they reduced this to 5 and now I don't think there's a limit at all.

But it's funny because I like to have cash so often I will pay with a card so that I get to keep the cash in my wallet.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jan 26, 2020)

Wrong thread, sorry.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 26, 2020)

Buskers in Tottenham Court Road station (and presumably elsewhere) often have contactless tip widgets now.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jan 26, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Buskers in Tottenham Court Road station (and presumably elsewhere) often have contactless tip widgets now.


Yeah, I'm planning on getting one. I do OK with cash at the moment but it helps to be prepared. I don't think cash will ever completely die out - at least not in our lifetime -but it takes away the excuse of "I don't have change!"


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 26, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Buskers in Tottenham Court Road station (and presumably elsewhere) often have contactless tip widgets now.



Yes. Although a simple hand-drawn sign stating that the performer in question does not require any of my money would be equally effective at deterring me from contributing. See also promoting your fucking facebook page, soundcloud or whatever. 

Busking is a fine and honourable tradition, don't turn it into another tentacle of the financial services and/or viral marketing industries.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jan 26, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes. Although a simple hand-drawn sign stating that the performer in question does not require any of my money would be equally effective at deterring me from contributing. See also promoting your fucking facebook page, soundcloud or whatever.
> 
> Busking is a fine and honourable tradition, don't turn it into another tentacle of the financial services and/or viral marketing industries.


See also announcing on Twitter where you're going to be. Busking should be spontaneous!


----------



## Idaho (Jan 26, 2020)

weltweit said:


> My local village shop used to only take cards for purchases over £10, then they reduced this to 5 and now I don't think there's a limit at all.
> 
> But it's funny because I like to have cash so often I will pay with a card so that I get to keep the cash in my wallet.


Gresham's law on a personal level


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jan 26, 2020)

£2.80.

Anything under 20p goes in the change jar. 

I still like cash though. You can't beat payday and going out on the razz with £50 in your pocket. One of my local boozers only takes cash, and anyway cash is useful for buying drugs and sex toys and tipping the pizza delivery guy. And you always need a quid for the lockers at the swimming pool.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 27, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes. Although a simple hand-drawn sign stating that the performer in question does not require any of my money would be equally effective at deterring me from contributing. See also promoting your fucking facebook page, soundcloud or whatever.
> 
> Busking is a fine and honourable tradition, don't turn it into another tentacle of the financial services and/or viral marketing industries.



a small metal flight case full of home made CD-Rs in flimsy plastic cases. I mean I’m all into DIY in music, but make some fucking effort. And be good enough too.

the oddball old bloke who played several things at once accompanied by his dog that occasionally barked in time never had any of this shit.

for some reason you’ve also reminded me of the era of dreadful bands going ‘doubleyewdoubleyewdoubleyewdotmyspacedotcomslashthefuckingpiecesofshit’ on stage between songs. Some day I’ll form a pisstake retro noughties band and this will be one of the keenly observed details we replicate.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 27, 2020)

weltweit said:
			
		

> But it's funny because *I like to have cash so often I will pay with a card so that I get to keep the cash in my wallet*.



Necessary cash. I _really_ often use cards elsewhere than pubs, so as to retain cash for pint-buying purposes. Plus for generating coins** ......
In my lifestyle anyway    

**And as for change/coins, I retain *vast* amounts of that at home for buses, newspapers, etc etc etc


----------



## hash tag (May 26, 2020)

What with current crisis ressurecting this thread is long over due. From what I can gather, many people are currently accepting cards only now, no cash.
This is surely going to push cash nearer to the edge.


----------



## MickiQ (May 26, 2020)

hash tag said:


> What with current crisis ressurecting this thread is long over due. From what I can gather, many people are currently accepting cards only now, no cash.
> This is surely going to push cash nearer to the edge.


Even our local chinese takeaway who has stubbornly resisted cards for years and only taken cash will now only take cards for deliveries only at the moment. I suspect once the crisis is over they will go back to accepting cash as well but I doubt they will stop taking cards though.
I don't think cash is going to disappear completely but it is definitely going the same way as the personal cheque though and the current crisis will only accelerate this change.


----------



## BassJunkie (May 26, 2020)

I find I now use cash for 2 reasons - to buy weed and to play poker (with my mates, in reality). I feel I should use it for more because I really don't want it to disappear.

If it does disappear then bartering for the above reasons wouldn't be convenient. 
And more importantly, I don't want records of all my transactions.


----------



## hash tag (May 26, 2020)

RE the Chinese, I wonder if they haven't had a card machine before. Also it will help track down money laundering and tax avoidance. On the other hand, I
without cash, we will not be able to make phone calls when we are out and about


----------



## Teaboy (May 26, 2020)

I used a cashpoint last week for the first time since February.  Its been so long I'd forgotten that plastic £20 notes were a thing.  It was a bit of surprise when the cashpoint spat it out.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> I used a cashpoint last week for the first time since February.  Its been so long I'd forgotten that plastic £20 notes were a thing.  It was a bit of surprise when the cashpoint spat it out.


hadn't realised they were out 

will have to bank my auld paper ones.


----------



## 8ball (May 26, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> I used a cashpoint last week for the first time since February.  Its been so long I'd forgotten that plastic £20 notes were a thing.  It was a bit of surprise when the cashpoint spat it out.



Really diddy too.  Before long they'll be able to take a photo of a tenner next to a Mars bar, compare it with 30 years ago, and claim nothing has changed.


----------



## Teaboy (May 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> hadn't realised they were out
> 
> will have to bank my auld paper ones.



I think the paper ones will still be valid for a while especially given current circumstances.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 26, 2020)

Strangely, or not(?) one of our local Chinese takeaways has re-opened only taking cash. And, there have just recently been looong queues at several cash machines in the area. A black market of which I am unaware?


----------



## Doodler (May 26, 2020)

.


----------



## Idaho (May 26, 2020)

Take aways love cash. Very tax efficient


----------



## hash tag (May 26, 2020)

A localised version of Amazon.


----------



## redcogs (May 28, 2020)

ive been fretting about the fate  of my lovely wallet which has a fetching celtic knot embossed upon it, but i suppose it still useful for the driving license and rotary club card .


----------



## pogofish (Sep 27, 2021)

Local press are reporting that SPAR are  negotiating to wind-up their deal with the Post Office to operate in-store branches.  They have already closed five recently, all in the poorest/most deprived parts of the city and I don't think any of them have nearby alternatives.

The SPAR/CJ Lang CEO described the closures as - *"It's probably the best decision we've taken in many years"*


----------



## StoneRoad (Sep 27, 2021)

pogofish said:


> Local press are reporting that SPAR are  negotiating to wind-up their deal with the Post Office to operate in-store branches.  They have already closed five recently, all in the poorest/most deprived parts of the city and I don't think any of them have nearby alternatives.
> 
> The SPAR/CJ Lang CEO described the closures as - *"It's probably the best decision we've taken in many years"*


I've got steadily less impressed with Spar over the past two decades. Despite their reputation as a closely controlled franchise, there were some very odd things going on ...
They bailed from the large hamlet where my late father lived in North Wales, in rather strange circumstances.
The one in the large village where I live in SW Northumberland closed about a year or so after we moved in, after a period of becoming badly run-down - it gradually became very grubby inside and then shut suddenly.


----------



## pogofish (Sep 27, 2021)

StoneRoad said:


> I've got steadily less impressed with Spar over the past two decades. Despite their reputation as a closely controlled franchise, there were some very odd things going on ...
> They bailed from the large hamlet where my late father lived in North Wales, in rather strange circumstances.
> The one in the large village where I live in SW Northumberland closed about a year or so after we moved in, after a period of becoming badly run-down - it gradually became very grubby inside and then shut suddenly.



The one near my work is one of the five that lost its PO and yes, it had become pretty run down.  

However, a couple of weeks back the shopfitters moved-in and it has been given a fairly flashy makeover.  The primary PO counter has been given-oveer to an enlarged snacks/booze section, whilst the secondary counter has been converted into essentially a fast food counter.  So it looks like the munchie market is their new target.

The one near me has I think retained its PO FTM, although I've not been up there for a few weeks.  It has also become pretty run down but it is a much smaller store.

Who controls the franchise?  This is because the UK/Scottish SPARS bear no comparison with the quality of stores I've been in in other parts of Europe.


----------



## StoneRoad (Sep 27, 2021)

My [secondhand] knowledge of that - who owns Spar UK / the divisions - is very out of date ... and was confined to an area of NW Wales.
I would be interested to update it, though. So may investigate it, if I have some spare time ...


----------



## pogofish (Sep 30, 2021)

Now that's Virgin Money - The Clydesdale Bank that was, closing a dozen branches plus more in the north of England. Again, in quite a few places where there isn't another branch for miles.









						Clydesdale owner Virgin Money takes axe to 12 Scottish bank branches in 'shameful but bizarre' move: full list
					

Virgin Money has dealt another blow to high street banking after taking the axe to a dozen Scottish branches.




					www.scotsman.com


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 30, 2021)

pogofish said:


> Now that's Virgin Money - The Clydesdale Bank that was, closing a dozen branches plus more in the north of England. Again, in quite a few places where there isn't another branch for miles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s normal to close branches where there is no competition as most customers will loyally move their accounts to a new town.  

Several decades ago the NatWest in my village was shut down, there was no other bank so people just let their accounts get moved to the branch in another local town. That town had several banks so they couldn’t close the one there without the risk of losing customers to the other companies (both were at risk of closure at the time).


----------



## pogofish (Sep 30, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> It’s normal to close branches where there is no competition as most customers will loyally move their accounts to a new town.
> 
> Several decades ago the NatWest in my village was shut down, there was no other bank so people just let their accounts get moved to the branch in another local town. That town had several banks so they couldn’t close the one there without the risk of losing customers to the other companies (both were at risk of closure at the time).



In the case of the Wick branch, that would be Inverness - 104 miles away!

When my old bank branch was closed, the new branch that took over its customers was less than a mile away.


----------



## StoneRoad (Sep 30, 2021)

Annoyingly, there is an assumption [by bank hierarchies] that people are happy with this sort of shennanigans, largely because of the lack of organised protests.
Plus that hoary old chestnut "there's always internet banking, you know"
--- Not everyone can "do" internet banking !

The laptop I'm using is borrowed, it is OK but my internet connection is bit of wet string [about two miles of high loss copper cable, some overground some buried].
And personally, I feel that the systems are too easily breached :- There are still far too many regular reports that X thousand customers "may" have had their banking / personal details exposed by in-effective system security, and that's just the ones we hear about ...


----------



## hash tag (Sep 30, 2021)

pogofish said:


> In the case of the Wick branch, that would be Inverness - 104 miles away!
> 
> When my old bank branch was closed, the new branch that took over its customers was less than a mile away.


I found at recently that there is not a lot in Wick as it is 
Also, I was recently talking about how to deal with a cheque these days and was told you can pay them in on your phone


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 30, 2021)

hash tag said:


> I found at recently that there is not a lot in Wick as it is
> Also, I was recently talking about how to deal with a cheque these days and was told you can pay them in on your phone



Yeah scanning a cheque by phone is a thing. Except not with my bank. Which was a pain in the arse when I had a couple of cheques sent to me last year.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 30, 2021)

I was very resistant to contactless (as you can see from my OP), but personally the pandemic has converted me to paying by smartphone.  While that’s great for me, I know my parents couldn’t do it. My Dad doesn’t even read texts. You can only ring him. And you’re still better using his landline.  

The assumption that everyone can or wants to use the internet is very disempowering.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 30, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> Yeah scanning a cheque by phone is a thing. Except not with my bank. Which was a pain in the arse when I had a couple of cheques sent to me last year.


As I am old I had never heard of such a thing before. I do not do ANY banking type stuff on my phone and do my bank do it, who knows.


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> Yeah scanning a cheque by phone is a thing. Except not with my bank. Which was a pain in the arse when I had a couple of cheques sent to me last year.


It makes things much easier.  I just want them to do it with cash too


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 30, 2021)

hash tag said:


> As I am old I had never heard of such a thing before. I do not do ANY banking type stuff on my phone and do my bank do it, who knows.



You'd need an app and be logged into it. I think HSBC do it? I am with Natwest and they don't (or didn't when I needed it) which was a pain because during the lockdown my nearest branch had severly restricted hours and closed entirely on Saturday, and the only other alternative to going to a branch was to order a paying in book (remember those!) and then mail it by post with the paying in slip. It was a right faff.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

I actually prefer it. Just simplifies everything. I do frequent a couple of places that are cash only and it’s nice to have some change to give to homeless people; if cash goes completely they’re fucked.


----------



## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I actually prefer it. Just simplifies everything. I do frequent a couple of places that are cash only and it’s nice to have some change to give to homeless people; if cash goes completely they’re fucked.


Yeah, I've pretty much given up on cash, though before I used it for most things, It's really hard having to say to people who ask for cash that you haven't got any on you, even though it's true. I've taken to asking if I can buy them something to eat instead but they often seem to want me to buy them fags. Which is obviously a lot more expensive than giving folk a couple of quid or whatever.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Sue said:


> Yeah, I've pretty much given up on cash, though before I used it for most things, It's really hard having to say to people who ask for cash that you haven't got any on you, even though it's true. I've taken to asking if I can buy them something to eat instead but they often seem to want me to buy them fags. Which is obviously a lot more expensive than giving folk a couple of quid or whatever.



I remember buying a street drinker a load of stuff to boost his health on Whitechapel High Street years ago. I don’t always take a paternalistic stance on homelessness but he needed food more than beer. He simply took the goods, returned them to the shop and they gladly replaced them for Special Brew.


----------



## marty21 (Sep 30, 2021)

Quite a few pubs in my Manor are now cashless , something that seems to be accelerating of late.  I mostly use contactless now , haven't graduated to using my phone yet, or a recent purchase, a smart watch 🤔


----------



## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I remember buying a street drinker a load of stuff to boost his health on Whitechapel High Street years ago. I don’t always take a paternalistic stance on homelessness but he needed food more than beer. He simply took the goods, returned them to the shop and they gladly replaced them for Special Brew.


I've done it a couple of times but it just feels fairer to give five people £2 each than to spend a tenner on a pack of fags for one person. Dunno though 🤷‍♀️.

(Sadly, there are an awful lot of folk begging round where I live so that would also be a load of tenners every day.)


----------



## hash tag (Sep 30, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> You'd need an app and be logged into it. I think HSBC do it? I am with Natwest and they don't (or didn't when I needed it) which was a pain because during the lockdown my nearest branch had severly restricted hours and closed entirely on Saturday, and the only other alternative to going to a branch was to order a paying in book (remember those!) and then mail it by post with the paying in slip. It was a right faff.


You can legally send them by post....there is still a plain ordinary Postal service or is that old fashioned and outdated as well?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Sue said:


> I've done it a couple of times but it just feels fairer to give five people £2 each than to spend a tenner on a pack of fags for one person. Dunno though 🤷‍♀️.
> 
> (Sadly, there are an awful lot of folk begging round where I live so that would also be a load of tenners every day.)



Cigarettes are proper expensive nowadays. I can’t justify them for myself so wouldn’t treat anyone else to them. Yeah, a couple of quid here and there. And hopefully enough do it.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 30, 2021)

Have I seen a big issue seller with tap and go, via a little cordless hand held terminal thing. In Scotland last week I saw a busker with a sign saying he accepted payments by paypal. There are many people who are not physically or mentally able to get their heads round managing things on computers.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 30, 2021)

Wandsworth is going over to cashless parking. Speaking to a very tech savvy colleague, he said he has rung up large debts with this, because some systems you log in to start payment then have to remember to log out. He says he's forgotton to log out several times


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 30, 2021)

hash tag said:


> I found at recently that there is not a lot in Wick as it is
> Also, I was recently talking about how to deal with a cheque these days and was told you can pay them in on your phone




There is a limit to the size of cheque you can pay in by phone, a recent HMRC rebate meant a trip to Cranleigh as Godalming’s Barclays closed a year ago, I think the limit was £1000, this for a business account


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 30, 2021)

The only thing I use cash for these days is the window cleaner, tips for wait staff and coins for beggars but that's about it. Even going the pub these days they prefer contactless. The last time I remember buying anything with cash was an icecream vendor outside Shakespeare's House in Stratford in July. I've bought ice-creams since but they have been with my phone or my watch, I only use cards where the transaction is over £45


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## hash tag (Sep 30, 2021)

Window cleaner 😁


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## Dogsauce (Sep 30, 2021)

Car boots are still all about the cash, need to take plenty of coins along, don’t think I’ve seen a card reader there yet!  Someone did have one at the cake stand at a fun run event for school last weekend so they are getting more common in odd places.


----------



## StoneRoad (Sep 30, 2021)

Unless the card reader people have changed some of their charging criteria & rates, they used to be really expensive. 

I'm wondering if at a future RNLI store collection I'll be waving one of them around as well as a bucket for coins ?


----------



## hash tag (Sep 30, 2021)

Before lock down I saw a few small volume traders using card readers at things like country fairs.


----------



## weltweit (Sep 30, 2021)

I don't like the idea of the end of cash at some point but I have to admit to using my card for expenses even as small as £2.00 these days.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 30, 2021)

StoneRoad said:


> Unless the card reader people have changed some of their charging criteria & rates, they used to be really expensive.
> 
> I'm wondering if at a future RNLI store collection I'll be waving one of them around as well as a bucket for coins ?


Btw. I had a "charity" who I had previously given money to call me this evening asking for further contributions by way of a direct debit. How about £8  per month, it will make all the difference. No. Further chat, what about £3 per month. No.
Can we call you again, yes. At the end of the call this person said they were working for some company who was being paid to do this. This looks to be how fund raising is going and successful I'm sure. I would not give to someone like this. I will give as and when to a charity of my choosing, thank you 😡


----------



## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Btw. I had a "charity" who I had previously given money to call me this evening asking for further contributions by way of a direct debit. How about £8  per month, it will make all the difference. No. Further chat, what about £3 per month. No.
> Can we call you again, yes. At the end of the call this person said they were working for some company who was being paid to do this. This looks to be how fund raising is going and successful I'm sure. I would not give to someone like this. I will give as and when to a charity of my choosing, thank you 😡


This isn't a new phenomenon. Who do you think chuggers work for? How do you think they get paid?


----------



## hash tag (Sep 30, 2021)

Chuggers I know about and it's bleedin obvious. This person called and said they were calling from. If they had said on behalf of it might have been slightly more obvious.


----------



## StoneRoad (Sep 30, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Btw. I had a "charity" who I had previously given money to call me this evening asking for further contributions by way of a direct debit. How about £8  per month, it will make all the difference. No. Further chat, what about £3 per month. No.
> Can we call you again, yes. At the end of the call this person said they were working for some company who was being paid to do this. This looks to be how fund raising is going and successful I'm sure. I would not give to someone like this. I will give as and when to a charity of my choosing, thank you 😡



Same here.

I'll not respond to phone or any other sort of chugging.
If I want to donate to a charity I'll do it directly.
I get over-suspicious of those that advertise heavily on the TV - and I sometimes check their "expenses to good works" ratio. Several charities have lost my support because they have a flashy London HQ and/or pay their CEO an exorbitant salary for doing very little.

It is only a select few that I'll also "gift aid" my contribution ...


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 1, 2021)

Card for everything except drug dealer tbh. Tell a lie used cash for some taxis the other week.

Barber I used in Reading was cash only but not been to any barber for 11 months now.


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## marty21 (Oct 1, 2021)

I pay cash for a hair cut, feels weird paying by card for that .


----------



## hash tag (Oct 1, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I pay cash for a hair cut, feels weird paying by card for that .


I rarely have that much cash on me.


----------



## Sue (Oct 1, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I pay cash for a hair cut, feels weird paying by card for that .


I used to feel like that about the pub but...


----------



## marty21 (Oct 1, 2021)

Sue said:


> I used to feel like that about the pub but...


Yep , rarely pay in cash at the pub, barbers is a hold out for me .


----------



## marty21 (Oct 1, 2021)

hash tag said:


> I rarely have that much cash on me.


You like an expensive hair cut ?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 1, 2021)

Sue said:


> I used to feel like that about the pub but...



Yeah, and then Covid happened so I was more in beer gardens and it all became a bit more European. Table service. That’s diminished a bit now which is a shame and we weren’t trusted to get it all on tick and pay at the end like in Amsterdam or Barcelona.


----------



## StoneRoad (Oct 1, 2021)

marty21 said:


> I pay cash for a hair cut, feels weird paying by card for that .



yeah the guy we used to take my [late] father to, in North West Wales, only took cash ...


----------



## hash tag (Oct 1, 2021)

marty21 said:


> You like an expensive hair cut ?


I don't do a number two or short back n sides.


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## platinumsage (Oct 1, 2021)

My barber doesn't like cash as it costs more to bank than the card fees.

My only cash these days is for my favourite harbour-side fish & chips place that doesn't take cards.


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## marty21 (Oct 1, 2021)

Pub managers love contactless, I was chatting to a manger in one of Hackney's card only pubs , and 'cashing up' at the end of the day is a breeze now they don't take cash , nor do they have to go to the bank with thousands of pounds in cash (with the obvious risks) . The council I work for stopped taking cash for rent payments several years ago, it wasn't worth the hassle apparently.  Although if someone turned up to pay off arrears in council tax or rent and wanted to pay in cash, I'm sure they'd make an exception.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> My barber doesn't like cash as it costs more to bank than the card fees.


Really? Wow, times have changed. (I used to have a shop and it used to very much be the other way round. In fact, depositing cash didn’t cost me anything, other than the bank charges I paid whether or not anything was deposited).


----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Really? Wow, times have changed. (I used to have a shop and it used to very much be the other way round. In fact, depositing cash didn’t cost me anything, other than the bank charges I paid whether or not anything was deposited).



I thought things were still this way too.


----------



## Sue (Oct 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> I thought things were still this way too.


Yeah, many service industries traditionally prefer cash for all kinds of reasons.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2021)

Sue said:


> Yeah, many service industries traditionally prefer cash for all kinds of reasons.



Well, we all know what some of those reasons are.  But I like cash.  I am mistrustful of card-only places.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 1, 2021)

I’m at the point now where ‘places that only accept cash’ annoy me. There’s a local launderette and cafe that only accepts cash. I like using one (service wash) but don’t have to use the other.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Really? Wow, times have changed. (I used to have a shop and it used to very much be the other way round. In fact, depositing cash didn’t cost me anything, other than the bank charges I paid whether or not anything was deposited).



That’s what he said….I just had a look online and I see HSBC charge 1.1% for cash deposits, and most card fees seem to be around the 1.75% mark. So not more expensive to take cash, but on a day’s takings of say £300 the difference comes to £1.95. Hardly worth the hassle of cash and trips to the bank for that.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 1, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> That’s what he said….I just had a look online and I see HSBC charge 1.1% for cash deposits, and most card fees seem to be around the 1.75% mark. So not more expensive to take cash, but on a day’s takings of say £300 the difference comes to £1.95. Hardly worth the hassle of cash and trips to the bank for that.


Suggests some nudging away from cash is taking place.


----------



## hash tag (Oct 2, 2021)

Interested to note that when in Scotland recently, they are still very strict about masks contact details etc. Yet most places are still happy to take cash, some prefer it.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 2, 2021)

weltweit said:


> Suggests some nudging away from cash is taking place.


Once cash becomes a rarity those card rates are only going in one direction.


----------



## Winot (Oct 2, 2021)

To what extent is this generational? I’m sure there are younger people who are excluded by circumstance but presumably there’s a skew which will shift as time goes on.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 2, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Interested to note that when in Scotland recently, they are still very strict about masks contact details etc. Yet most places are still happy to take cash, some prefer it.


That’s because the initial advice about surfaces was wrong. They just never changed it because a) it would be confusing b) it’s just better if everyone washes their hands anyway.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Oct 2, 2021)

I've been in New Zealand nearly 5 years now and I don't recall the last time I used cash. Even when you're paying house movers etc they just except bank transfers. The few times I get money I find myself squinting at it like a tourist, trying to work out what the denominations are. I generally use my phone to pay as it's the only thing I don't forget to take out with me Even the anarchoey zine fair I went to for some reason last year took bank transfers and GooglePay.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 3, 2021)

It is the prospect of change that can be unsettling. 

I am comfortable with cash and cards. I used to be comfortable with cheques but now so long after their virtual demise I don't really miss cheques. 

Going more digital does require trust in the banks and shops et al. When I lived in Germany I noticed that the cash machines didn't give receipts. I was used to keeping receipts until I could check entries against my bank statement. But in Germany the banks expected you to trust them. I wasn't comfortable with that.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 3, 2021)

weltweit said:


> It is the prospect of change that can be unsettling.
> 
> I am comfortable with cash and cards. I used to be comfortable with cheques but now so long after their virtual demise I don't really miss cheques.
> 
> Going more digital does require trust in the banks and shops et al. When I lived in Germany I noticed that the cash machines didn't give receipts. I was used to keeping receipts until I could check entries against my bank statement. But in Germany the banks expected you to trust them. I wasn't comfortable with that.


I have never got a receipt in about 40 years of using cash  machines.


----------



## StoneRoad (Oct 3, 2021)

I think you can still ask for a receipt to be printed these days.
The ATMs used to print them automatically, but the waste strewn about was significant, so the banks stopped that.

I think most people only used to keep balance checks and mini-statements (if you can still get those).


----------



## hash tag (Oct 3, 2021)

I never took a piece of paper out of an ATM other than cash. I either had cash or I didn't and that was how I managed money.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 3, 2021)

I used to get all my receipts.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2021)

weltweit said:


> I used to get all my receipts.


I am shocked


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 5, 2021)

When paying cashless, I get a receipt on my phone immediately.
Saving the rain forest, every bottle of wine.


----------



## sovereignb (Oct 6, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> When paying cashless, I get a receipt on my phone immediately.
> Saving the rain forest, every bottle of wine.


recycle paper receipts?


----------



## Argonia (Oct 6, 2021)

[content removed - ed]


----------



## Argonia (Oct 6, 2021)

Argonia said:


> [content removed - ed]


----------



## hash tag (Oct 6, 2021)

Argonia given your recent outpourings several people here are concerned about your health and well-being and have given you the opportunity to talk or have advised for you to seek help. A few are now getting annoyed by your rantings derailing threads etc. Seek help, or talk or leave


----------



## Argonia (Oct 6, 2021)

hash tag said:


> [content removed - ed]


----------



## Dom Traynor (Oct 6, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Argonia given your recent outpourings several people here are concerned about your health and well-being and have given you the opportunity to talk or have advised for you to seek help. A few are now getting annoyed by your rantings derailing threads etc. Seek help, or talk or leave


Put it on ignore? I did ages ago.


----------



## editor (Oct 6, 2021)

Argonia said:


> LOOK YOU FUCKIG CUNTS LET ME LAY IT OUT TO YOU


No, this is unacceptable conduct.


----------



## hash tag (Oct 19, 2021)

Getting back on track I hear that Tossco's have now opened a checkout free store and maybe Aldi's or Lidl's also.
End of cash or end of jobs?


----------



## souljacker (Oct 19, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Getting back on track I hear that Tossco's have now opened a checkout free store and maybe Aldi's or Lidl's also.
> End of cash or end of jobs?



End of thieving from the scab tills.


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## hash tag (Mar 1, 2022)

My credit card, which I use for virtually everything have recently advised me that I should download their app otherwise payments I make with it will be declined.
I still do nothing financial ever on my phone and only ever access my bank account about once a month online to pay my credit card. This is the only online stuff
that I do.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 1, 2022)

hash tag said:


> My credit card, which I use for virtually everything have recently advised me that I should download their app otherwise payments I make with it will be declined.
> I still do nothing financial ever on my phone and only ever access my bank account about once a month online to pay my credit card. This is the only online stuff
> that I do.



Is it for another form of authorisation? I could cope with that. 

What mildly annoyed me was one of mine said they were stopping the website and just having a mobile app. I'm happy to do most stuff this way, but sometimes I want  more details. I needed to close one anyway and they made the choice of which one easier.


----------



## platinumsage (Mar 1, 2022)

souljacker said:


> End of thieving from the scab tills.



Yeah you can just thieve from the shop in a more general sense instead.


----------



## hash tag (Mar 14, 2022)

From yesterday's rag, restaurants are turning their backs on cash 








						Cash’s reign fades as Covid accelerates high street switch to card-only
					

The trend towards cashless is creeping into food outlets




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## StoneRoad (Mar 14, 2022)

The local Fish n Chip [etc] emporium - which delivers up here - is cash only.
And thanks to the way the card machines & companies / banks gouge some of their customers, are not intending to change anytime soon.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 15, 2022)

Anywhere that’s cash only means I wouldn’t (_couldn’t_ even) shop there now. I don’t bother carrying a wallet/cards with me anymore, just my phone.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 15, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Anywhere that’s cash only means I wouldn’t (_couldn’t_ even) shop there now. I don’t bother carrying a wallet/cards with me anymore, just my phone.



Pretty much me as well. Felt strange on holiday carrying one again, but even in Turkey I could often pay for a £1.50 donner with card. It wasn't actually my plan to do this, but the cash machines there charged 5 to 8% for cash.


----------



## platinumsage (Mar 15, 2022)

I always take cash when I'm out of cities, because the phone signal is so shit in this country outside of any place stuffed full of people.

No bacon rolls for you guys:


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Mar 15, 2022)

Just goes to show that everyone's needs are different and these restaurants etc should let people have the choice!


----------



## MBV (Mar 15, 2022)

My barbers only takes cash and then it's often useful to have cash for parking.


----------



## moochedit (Mar 15, 2022)

hash tag said:


> My credit card, which I use for virtually everything have recently advised me that I should download their app otherwise payments I make with it will be declined.
> I still do nothing financial ever on my phone and only ever access my bank account about once a month online to pay my credit card. This is the only online stuff
> that I do.


My mum had a letter from barclaycard that got her worried about installing apps etc but i read it and it says there will be an option to just receive a single use code by text message when you buy something online so no app needed. She does buy things online sometimes but doesn't use online banking.


----------



## Elpenor (Mar 15, 2022)

I pay via app for parking these days. Cash is used purely for shopping trolleys nowadays.

My barbers in Reading took cash only.


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## moochedit (Mar 15, 2022)

MBV said:


> My barbers only takes cash and then it's often useful to have cash for parking.


My barber has a card machine but it always seems to be "broken" if anyone asks to use it!


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## MBV (Mar 15, 2022)

Yeah I know a tyre place like that. I stopped using them.


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## NoXion (Mar 15, 2022)

I'd rather that places be up-front about whether they will take cash or card only, instead of fucking about with "broken" card readers or whatever other fucking stupid excuse for being awkward. If they only want a particular kind of customer, at least have the fucking balls to come out and say it outright instead of dicking us around.


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## Shechemite (Mar 15, 2022)

I went to a bare knuckle boxing match my mate was in back in September. It was in some field in the middle of nowhere up north. Stupidly I thought I wouldn’t need cash and would be able to buy food/booze there with my phone. Sadly not


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## danny la rouge (Mar 15, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> I went to a bare knuckle boxing match my mate was in back in September. It was in some field in the middle of nowhere up north. Stupidly I thought I wouldn’t need cash and would be able to buy food/booze there with my phone. Sadly not


Please tell me you were standing in front of a guy in a field who had a couple of palettes of beer at his feet and you were looking for somewhere to swipe your phone. 🤣


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## Shechemite (Mar 15, 2022)

Yes. And he very kindly gave me three tins to get me through the afternoon


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## Shechemite (Mar 15, 2022)

Given it was an afternoon or watching grown men punch the crap out of each other, it was a convivial atmosphere. There was even a charity raising money to help fighters come/stay off substances etc

 Ah bollocks can’t share the footage. But you get the idea.


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## marty21 (Mar 16, 2022)

Cash for car stuff , repairs, MOT , servicing etc , old school garage who prefers cash 😂

Cash for hair cuts (old school , etc) 

Pretty much cards for other stuff.


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## Dom Traynor (Mar 16, 2022)

I went to a new barber the other day and it was the first business in ages that wouldn't accept Google Pay or bank transfer with an app so I had to drive home and get my card and drive back again in rush hour. COVID really boosted support for contactless payment here in NZ. I pay the cleaner and gardener by direct payment, and even the window cleaner via app. Even donations at fundraisers and the collection plate at my partners church are done by bank transfer or contactless.


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## l'Otters (Mar 17, 2022)

One of the people I support doesn’t have access to a bank card & can only use cash. This means when we do community outings to places that only take cards, one of the support workers put it on their card and she gives them cash. Gets tricky if it’s not an easy round figure. But having lots of change is essential anyway because most people get something reimbursed towards whatever is spent. 

She’s told me she’s got quite angry and upset sometimes when it turns out she can’t get a drink or a snack when she’s tried to, when out somewhere independently. This pisses me off too quite frankly, it’s shit. She’s physically disabled, walks with a stick and a limp, has mental health difficulties of some sort; daily life is hard enough already without this added factor excluding her from basic stuff. 

I don’t like paying for things card either, but I’ve got the option - and I’m mostly able-bodied, can hold on / walk a bit further / carry my own snacks / etc, much more easily than she can.


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## scifisam (Mar 17, 2022)

l'Otters said:


> One of the people I support doesn’t have access to a bank card & can only use cash. This means when we do community outings to places that only take cards, one of the support workers put it on their card and she gives them cash. Gets tricky if it’s not an easy round figure. But having lots of change is essential anyway because most people get something reimbursed towards whatever is spent.
> 
> She’s told me she’s got quite angry and upset sometimes when it turns out she can’t get a drink or a snack when she’s tried to, when out somewhere independently. This pisses me off too quite frankly, it’s shit. She’s physically disabled, walks with a stick and a limp, has mental health difficulties of some sort; daily life is hard enough already without this added factor excluding her from basic stuff.
> 
> I don’t like paying for things card either, but I’ve got the option - and I’m mostly able-bodied, can hold on / walk a bit further / carry my own snacks / etc, much more easily than she can.



This might be patronising, so apologies if it is, but has she tried getting a credit union account? They have basic debit cards for basically anyone.

How is she getting whatever disability payments she gets?


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## Magnus McGinty (Mar 17, 2022)

I've given up on the cashless dream and always carry some again. Launderette, some cafes I like and my child's karate subs all want it done via wallet than card.


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## l'Otters (Mar 17, 2022)

scifisam said:


> This might be patronising, so apologies if it is, but has she tried getting a credit union account? They have basic debit cards for basically anyone.
> 
> How is she getting whatever disability payments she gets?


kinda beyond my remit in the role I'm doing to quiz her about those details, but I was going to flag it up next time I have a supervision meeting. (ie. that she's having difficulties with the whole no-access-to-debit-card thing.)


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## hash tag (Mar 29, 2022)

I am taking a UK break for a few days on Thursday ( wedding Anniversary and Mrs Tags birthday ). I had my main piece of plastic stopped today due to suspicious activity on the account. It will take at least 5 days to get a new card out to me. In a half hearted attempt to get by, I drew the maximum amount of cash out of the building society earlier. Could be a fun few days.


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## teuchter (May 4, 2022)

Does such a thing as a pay-as-you-go contactless card, not registered to any address or person, exist yet?


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## MickiQ (May 4, 2022)

you can certainly get pre-paid contactless cards where you load up dosh in advance. Post Office does one for a start. Don't know if you can use one without registering it to someone.


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## moochedit (May 4, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Does such a thing as a pay-as-you-go contactless card, not registered to any address or person, exist yet?



Found this (us link and from 2013). Says yes but can't be reloaded with cash.









						Can You Get an Anonymous Prepaid Credit Card?
					






					wallethub.com


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## hash tag (May 4, 2022)

What about something like hyperjar or gohenry? 








						Kids - HyperJar
					

Giving your kids pocket money just got easier. This is the fuss-free pocket money card for kids.




					hyperjar.com
				











						Prepaid Debit Card for Kids & Financial Learning App | gohenry
					

GoHenry's debit card and app lets kids ages 6-18 learn practical money management skills that they can go out and apply in the real world.




					www.gohenry.com


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## teuchter (May 4, 2022)

All those seem to be linked to a person, whether by email address, phone number or physical address.

I'm thinking the equivalent of a PAYG SIM card which you just buy with a certain amount on it.


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## marty21 (May 4, 2022)

The main place I spend cash is my local garage, he probably does have a card machine but I've been paying him cash for servicing & MOTs for 20 odd years , feels wrong to offer a card 🤣


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## hash tag (May 4, 2022)

teuchter said:


> All those seem to be linked to a person, whether by email address, phone number or physical address.
> 
> I'm thinking the equivalent of a PAYG SIM card which you just buy with a certain amount on it.


There are probably strict controls because of money laundering regs


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## weltweit (May 4, 2022)

My barber takes cash and there is a snack box at work that takes cash though I see you can pay by phone also wtf?? for a snack!

Apart from that I use contactless a lot of the time even if only for a small amount.

Oh, paying for electric and gas (key meters both) I withdraw cash from my account at the local post office and then give it to them back to put on the respective keys. They probably could enable card payments but it is almost that already, the cash only appears for a moment out of their cash drawer and then when the credits are put on the keys it disappears into their cash drawer again  

A couple of years ago I had to buy a replacement battery from an AA van, I was a bit concerned because I didn't have enough cash, but hey ho, the AA man had a card machine!!


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## hash tag (Aug 8, 2022)

Cash is making a comeback as people count the pennies Cost of living: People turning back to cash as prices rise


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## 8ball (Aug 8, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Cash is making a comeback as people count the pennies Cost of living: People turning back to cash as prices rise



First time I've heard of "budget binders".


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## hash tag (Aug 8, 2022)

Nor me, but it's giving a term to how I used to live, well nearly. If I had a tenner in the bank, I could spend it. If I didn't I couldn't or I might cash a cheque


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## weltweit (Aug 8, 2022)

I might start using cash more because my bank account statement is bo - oring - 
local store 2.08 
local store 8.04 
local store 5.34
local store 2.08
Petrol      76.93
local store 3.25
etc


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## LeytonCatLady (Aug 8, 2022)

weltweit said:


> I might start using cash more because my bank account statement is bo - oring -
> local store 2.08
> local store 8.04
> local store 5.34
> ...


My bank can be dead slow at updating, even though it's supposed to show "pending" transactions, sometimes even they'll take a couple of days to show up, particularly TFL travel charges. I'd rather withdraw the cash and put it on the Oyster and then at least I know where I am.


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## weltweit (Aug 8, 2022)

LeytonCatLady said:


> My bank can be dead slow at updating, even though it's supposed to show "pending" transactions, sometimes even they'll take a couple of days to show up, particularly TFL travel charges. I'd rather withdraw the cash and put it on the Oyster and then at least I know where I am.


Which bank are you with LCL? I am with Lloyds and they seem pretty good so far.


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## LeytonCatLady (Aug 8, 2022)

weltweit said:


> Which bank are you with LCL? I am with Lloyds and they seem pretty good so far.


RBS. Like I say, most of the time they're good but I've been caught out a couple of times and ended up overdrawn. Never again!


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## scifisam (Aug 8, 2022)

hash tag said:


> There are probably strict controls because of money laundering regs



Unregistered would mean if it were nicked or lost that'd be all the money gone, too. Also there'd be quite a bit risk of vulnerable people being encouraged to put their cash on them to pay off a debt they supposedly have, like happens with gift cards now, but worse.

OU's right about credit unions. They usually offer basic debit cards these days, maybe not contactless but better than only being able to pay in cash, or having to go to a bank or post office every time you want to take cash out.


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## liquidindian (Aug 10, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Cash is making a comeback as people count the pennies Cost of living: People turning back to cash as prices rise


I sort of understand this, but for me the pots feature and the ability to see my balance right now in my banking app means that I feel I have way more control over bills than I've ever had. On pay day I add all the money I need for bills to a seperate pot and essentially forget about it, similar to the cash binder or envelope system but with way less faff. I get that not everyone has access to online/mobile banking (or banking for that matter) but this is claiming that people are moving _back _to cash.

Is there a kind of psychological thing going on here, that holding actual money makes straitened times feel a bit less so?


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## skyscraper101 (Aug 10, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Is there a kind of psychological thing going on here, that holding actual money makes straitened times feel a bit less so?



Very much so. Some people just need the visual element of coins and notes that cards don't offer. 

Personally I don't like cash because it means I have to carry around a wallet all the time which is extra bulk on top of my phone and keys, and then you have the issue of coins and how annoying they are to store. And how easy they are to lose.  Of course the UK doesn't have anything lower then a £5 note too so inevitably shops give back handfuls of bulky change in £1s and £2s and 50ps which is too valuable to toss to one side carelessly.

Don't even start me on the general lack of £5 notes too, and rarely being able to withdraw them at ATMs. One of the few things I'm with America on here is having their base unit of currency still available as a $1 note.


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## skyscraper101 (Aug 10, 2022)

I had a friend over from Germany recently and she was amazed how cashless the UK is. And it's true. I can only think of one place (a small local Chinese takeaway) that doesn't do cards. In fact it's more common to see places that are 'Only Cards' now.


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## NoXion (Aug 10, 2022)

I've been using hardly any cash for at least the past two years now. The main effect of this seems to be that my desk is no longer covered in massive drifts of copper coins.


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## BristolEcho (Aug 10, 2022)

Online banking changed my life for the better, but I do think online spending and contactless does lead to a disconnection from what you're spending. I've not had to count the pennies as much recently, but if I do I will go back to using more cash.

When going out raving it's really useful to withdraw £30 and know that when thats gone I've used £30. I will potentially spend a lot more on contactless, though when I have done it recently it's not felt like I've overspent, but I'm not hawking over my money so much at the moment.


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## hash tag (Aug 10, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> I sort of understand this, but for me the pots feature and the ability to see my balance right now in my banking app means that I feel I have way more control over bills than I've ever had. On pay day I add all the money I need for bills to a seperate pot and essentially forget about it, similar to the cash binder or envelope system but with way less faff. I get that not everyone has access to online/mobile banking (or banking for that matter) but this is claiming that people are moving _back _to cash.
> 
> Is there a kind of psychological thing going on here, that holding actual money makes straitened times feel a bit less so?


Lots of people can't or wont do online banking, yet alone use a phone for transactions ( I dont).
With all this cashless stuff, tap and go to a £100 etc. It can be tricky to keep tabs on your balance and how much you are spending.
This morning, I checked my bank balance for the first time in a while because I have a large bill to pay tomorrow or Friday and payday is Monday ( I dont have enough for it).


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## NoXion (Aug 10, 2022)

Is it really that hard to learn that whipping out your card = you're spending money? I seem to have managed it and I'm an idiot with money.


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## hash tag (Aug 10, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Is it really that hard to learn that whipping out your card = you're spending money? I seem to have managed it and I'm an idiot with money.


For me yes, very hard. For many it is nigh on impossible to keep track of spending with a card. If you have cash in your pocket, you can spend it, if you don't have cash you can't. I've always managed to live beyond my means and am sweating over tomorrow or Fridays bill which is unknown. It'll be minimum £150 but more likely about £400 maybe more and with payday Monday and no credit card right now....


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## liquidindian (Aug 10, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Is it really that hard to learn that whipping out your card = you're spending money?


Yes. I'd argue that a lot of retail depends on it.


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## hash tag (Aug 10, 2022)

Cash was king when we were in Scotland last September while down south it was mostly cards.


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## liquidindian (Aug 10, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Cash was king when we were in Scotland last September while down south it was mostly cards.


We spent all that time and effort banging on about how it was legal tender so it makes it awkward to go cashless now.


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## hash tag (Aug 10, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> We spent all that time and effort banging on about how it was legal tender so it makes it awkward to go cashless now.


Oddly enough, not all cash is legal tender. I'm sure a trader could refuse payment for a good or service if I tried to pay in coppers over and above about .50p (sorry, I can't remember exact amounts).


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## liquidindian (Aug 10, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Oddly enough, not all cash is legal tender. I'm sure a trader could refuse payment for a good or service if I tried to pay in coppers over and above about .50p (sorry, I can't remember exact amounts).


I don't think Scottish notes are actually legal tender either. I believe that all legal tender means is that you can't refuse to settle a debt if it's paid in a certain way (English notes and not too many coins). It doesn't mean something is not legal currency and it doesn't mean someone in a shop has to accept it.

Doesn't stop us saying it, though.


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## LeytonCatLady (Aug 10, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> It doesn't mean someone in a shop has to accept it.


Well, I'd hope not if Father Buzz Cagney wiped his ass on it...


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## stdP (Aug 10, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Is there a kind of psychological thing going on here, that holding actual money makes straitened times feel a bit less so?



There's definitely a very strong psychological element to it for me, but the main one was "if I take out the cash for food now, I'll still be able to buy food when the bill for $whatever comes in". Watching the small pile diminish very quickly was also an excellent way of saying "fuck no, you really can't afford to go out" to yourself.



NoXion said:


> Is it really that hard to learn that whipping out your card = you're spending money? I seem to have managed it and I'm an idiot with money.



Lots of people I know don't clock how much they're spending. Nor do they keep a running total of what their current account is at in their head. It's been a long time since I've _had_ to keep track of my bank balance to the extent of "can I afford a meal?", but I still do because it was a hard lesson to learn; I work with several not-poorly-paid-people who'll come in complaining about how they were unaware they blew through their overdraft and couldn't get a cab home because the driver wouldn't take their AMEX or suchlike, and generally live pay packet to pay packet. I'm not sure how anyone can live like that and not be horrendously stressed TBH.


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## mentalchik (Aug 11, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> I don't think Scottish notes are actually legal tender either. I believe that all legal tender means is that you can't refuse to settle a debt if it's paid in a certain way (English notes and not too many coins). It doesn't mean something is not legal currency and it doesn't mean someone in a shop has to accept it.
> 
> Doesn't stop us saying it, though.


Scottish or NI notes that have sterling written on them are perfectly legal tender although peeopl can be funny about them and some smaller shops refuse to take them


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## kabbes (Aug 11, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Oddly enough, not all cash is legal tender. I'm sure a trader could refuse payment for a good or service if I tried to pay in coppers over and above about .50p (sorry, I can't remember exact amounts).


That’s not the definition of legal tender. Nobody has to take any type of offered payment for anything. Legal tender is all about what you have to accept to settle an already existing legal debt, not what you have to accept for a new transaction.


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## hash tag (Aug 11, 2022)

From the old lady herself 
"There are also some restrictions when using small coins. For example, 1p and 2p coins only count as legal tender for any amount up to 20p."








						What is legal tender?
					

Many people are confused about what legal tender means. It’s actually about settling debts rather than how you can pay for things.




					www.bankofengland.co.uk


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## kabbes (Aug 11, 2022)

hash tag said:


> From the old lady herself
> "There are also some restrictions when using small coins. For example, 1p and 2p coins only count as legal tender for any amount up to 20p."
> 
> 
> ...


It literally says in the call out quote you posted that it is “about settling debts rather than how you can pay for things”


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## hash tag (Aug 12, 2022)

hash tag said:


> For me yes, very hard. For many it is nigh on impossible to keep track of spending with a card. If you have cash in your pocket, you can spend it, if you don't have cash you can't. I've always managed to live beyond my means and am sweating over tomorrow or Fridays bill which is unknown. It'll be minimum £150 but more likely about £400 maybe more and with payday Monday and no credit card right now....


Expected bill has been put back until next week, which is good and bad. This probably means it will now cost much more 😓


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

UK cashless society a step closer as more than 23m people abandon coins
					

Report predicts cash will account for just 6% of payments within decade, prompting fears millions will be left behind




					www.theguardian.com


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

But then again there's this study from a few years ago that I remember because I wrote it.









						A fully cashless future is unrealistic, reveals Travelex study (Dec, 2018)
					

Do people really want to live in a cashless society? Findings from a recent Travelex study on the attitudes towards cash and cashless technology reveal that...  'It’s unlikely that any attempts to abandon cash completely will....Michael Batley, Head of Strategy at Travelex - the global foreign...




					www.cashmatters.org


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## NoXion (Aug 18, 2022)

There are still use-cases for cash even in this age of contactless and mobile payments. I don't think anything has been invented that would be able to successfully replace it completely, and I'm not sure how such a thing could be invented in the future, either.


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## MickiQ (Aug 18, 2022)

I don't think cash is ever going to completely disappear, the problem is going to be access to cash as it gets ever more cost-ineffective to stick ATM's out in the boonies.


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

Cash might not disappear, but fewer and fewer places ae going to accept it, access is going to be limited, and it might even be more expensive as available ATMs charge for withdrawals. The solution surely has to be making sure everyone has access to banking and electronic payments.

We've had debit cards since the 1980s, ATMs since the 1960s, I just don't buy the idea that people are too old to adapt. You can't fool me, I've seen the opinions shared on Facebook, the idea that old people can't use technology is bunk.


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## hash tag (Aug 18, 2022)

Cash is often  still king when it comes to tips. I am at hairdressers tomorrow; how can I tip the stylist if she does a good job without cash?


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## marty21 (Aug 18, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Cash might not disappear, but fewer and fewer places ae going to accept it, access is going to be limited, and it might even be more expensive as available ATMs charge for withdrawals. The solution surely has to be making sure everyone has access to banking and electronic payments.
> 
> We've had debit cards since the 1980s, ATMs since the 1960s, I just don't buy the idea that people are too old to adapt. You can't fool me, I've seen the opinions shared on Facebook, the idea that old people can't use technology is bunk.


My mum is 80, most of her spending is by card - she loves the convenience of it - my dad (died in 2015) always used cash, never used a cashpoint in his life or debit cards or credit cards - when he was forced to have his wages paid to his bank in the 80s, he'd get it all out in cash (but would have to get my sister or mum to  do this) .


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## strung out (Aug 18, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Cash is often  still king when it comes to tips. I am at hairdressers tomorrow; how can I tip the stylist if she does a good job without cash?


I get an email after my haircut where I can tip her by card if I want. Or you can just ask them to charge you a bit extra on the card - each hairdresser at my place has their own card terminal.


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

Similar at the barbers near me. You don't even have to tap your card, it's all on the app, and it's not like it's a dead fancy place (I go there, for a start).

I can only speak for myself but I'm more inclined to tip when it works this way.


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## moochedit (Aug 18, 2022)

The barbers i use has a card machine but its always "broken"  and they tell me to use the cash machine outside if i try and use a card


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## LeytonCatLady (Aug 18, 2022)

The homeless problem has got so bad round my way that I'm now making an effort to stick with cash if possible, unless I'm buying something online. That's not an issue that's ever going to go away, and someone on the street will need cash (I know some Big Issue sellers have card readers but your average street person won't have this option). Not to mention that banking systems go down, or put a block on your account for activity they deem suspicious if you've made too many eBay or Amazon purchases, or if you lose your card and have to get it cancelled while waiting for your new one. A cashless society just won't do.


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## MickiQ (Aug 18, 2022)

marty21 said:


> My mum is 80, most of her spending is by card - she loves the convenience of it - my dad (died in 2015) always used cash, never used a cashpoint in his life or debit cards or credit cards - when he was forced to have his wages paid to his bank in the 80s, he'd get it all out in cash (but would have to get my sister or mum to  do this) .


First place I worked (1976-1980), the staff were paid monthly into the bank and the shopfloor were paid weekly in cash. A big armoured truck would show up every week and they would queue up for their envelopes. The company wanted to move them onto being paid ino the bank (though initially still weekly) and the union supported the idea as well so they had various joint presentations to persuade the shopfloor that this was a good idea. the main argument against it was that money paid into the bank wasn't 'real' since they couldn't see it or feel it. I suspect a lot of them would agree with your Dad. In the end it was just imposed on them.


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## DaphneM (Aug 18, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Cash is often  still king when it comes to tips. I am at hairdressers tomorrow; how can I tip the stylist if she does a good job without cash?


there are so many apps for tipping


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

You can't put a block on stolen or lost cash, or ask for new cash to be sent out.

You could try, I suppose.


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## mojo pixy (Aug 18, 2022)

I'm back to using 100% cash for all RL transactions, it helps me budget without having to record and recall every transaction. Plus fuck the cashless society already.


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## muscovyduck (Aug 18, 2022)

I'm a lot less anxious buying food when I just withdraw cash and use that at the shops at the moment. It means I've just got one big transaction rather than the slow overwhelming tide


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## hash tag (Aug 18, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> there are so many apps for tipping


If you do online banking and then link it to your phone - its not for me.


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## NoXion (Aug 18, 2022)

moochedit said:


> The barbers i use has a card machine but its always "broken"  and they tell me to use the cash machine outside if i try and use a card



I'm sorry, but this is shitty behaviour from a business. If they don't want to accept card payments, they should just say so.


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## hash tag (Aug 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I'm sorry, but this is shitty behaviour from a business. If they don't want to accept card payments, they should just say so.


Im guessing a few restaurants are also going that way, after all, even some big issue sellers have card readers now.
I have never tipped as part of a bill, I take it off and pay by cash.


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## NoXion (Aug 18, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Im guessing a few restaurants are also going that way, after all, even some big issue sellers have card readers now.
> I have never tipped as part of a bill, I take it off and pay by cash.



My concern with regards to tipping via cash vs card is simply a practical one; when I tip someone, I want to tip that person in particular, I don't want the money going to a shared pot or being creamed off/stolen by management. Handing over cash is currently the best way to do this, but I'd be open to using my card if it can be made as convenient.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 18, 2022)

I can't buy food at the works canteen with cash. Speeds up service somewhat.


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## NoXion (Aug 18, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> I can't buy food at the works canteen with cash. Speeds up service somewhat.



Yep, it's pretty bad being stuck behind someone who's labouriously counting out the cash they've just spent two minutes digging around for.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 18, 2022)

moochedit said:


> The barbers i use has a card machine but its always "broken"  and they tell me to use the cash machine outside if i try and use a card



The ones I used to use always had that very same excuse. In the end I got sick of them blatantly lying about not wanting to take cards and went elsewhere.


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## xenon (Aug 18, 2022)

I don’t wanna see a cashless society. But personally I find it a pain to use. In particular using ATM machines. they are not really accessible. I.e. to blind people, et cetera. Being able to check my bank balance and pay for stuff on my phone is extremely useful.


----------



## xenon (Aug 18, 2022)

Yep I avoid cash only places.


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## skyscraper101 (Aug 18, 2022)

The only thing I like cash for is being able to tip my hairdresser. I pay the main fee using a card and then slip her a fiver to say thanks. It seems more personal than just adding a tip to the card.


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

skyscraper101 said:


> The only thing I like cash for is being able to tip my hairdresser. I pay the main fee using a card and then slip her a fiver to say thanks. It seems more personal than just adding a tip to the card.


The guys been touching my head and beard for half an hour. I don't want anything more personal.


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## hash tag (Aug 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> My concern with regards to tipping via cash vs card is simply a practical one; when I tip someone, I want to tip that person in particular, I don't want the money going to a shared pot or being creamed off/stolen by management. Handing over cash is currently the best way to do this, but I'd be open to using my card if it can be made as convenient.


Also, a card is more traceable so if you tip someone by card they have to declare it for tax and might even pay tax on it


NoXion said:


> Yep, it's pretty bad being stuck behind someone who's labouriously counting out the cash they've just spent two minutes digging around for.


Its a real pain in the arse being stuck behind someone at a supermarket checkout who has to go searching for their phone, struggle to unlock it, then find the right app etc. 


xenon said:


> I don’t wanna see a cashless society. But personally I find it a pain to use. In particular using ATM machines. they are not really accessible. I.e. to blind people, et cetera. Being able to check my bank balance and pay for stuff on my phone is extremely useful.


The middle button on the keypad is a 5. This has braille type dots on it for this reason as did older style push button phones


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## NoXion (Aug 18, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Also, a card is more traceable so if you tip someone by card they have to declare it for tax and might even pay tax on it



That's their problem, not mine. I don't feel obligated to concern myself with the minutiae of another individual's tax affairs.



hash tag said:


> Its a real pain in the arse being stuck behind someone at a supermarket checkout who has to go searching for their phone, struggle to unlock it, then find the right app etc.



To be honest I don't see the appeal of making phone-based payments, they don't seem to do anything that cash or contactless doesn't already do.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 18, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> First place I worked (1976-1980), the staff were paid monthly into the bank and the shopfloor were paid weekly in cash. A big armoured truck would show up every week and they would queue up for their envelopes. The company wanted to move them onto being paid ino the bank (though initially still weekly) and the union supported the idea as well so they had various joint presentations to persuade the shopfloor that this was a good idea. the main argument against it was that money paid into the bank wasn't 'real' since they couldn't see it or feel it. I suspect a lot of them would agree with your Dad. In the end it was just imposed on them.


Old payroll systems from this time had a coin analysis report which would calculate, and order the correct number of coins / notes for a payroll. 

I’m not quite old enough to have paid people by cash though but the  risk of being robbed would have made pay day a bit more exciting I suppose


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## marty21 (Aug 18, 2022)

skyscraper101 said:


> The ones I used to use always had that very same excuse. In the end I got sick of them blatantly lying about not wanting to take cards and went elsewhere.


I've always paid my barber in cash, no idea if they take cards tbh.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 18, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> First place I worked (1976-1980), the staff were paid monthly into the bank and the shopfloor were paid weekly in cash. A big armoured truck would show up every week and they would queue up for their envelopes. The company wanted to move them onto being paid ino the bank (though initially still weekly) and the union supported the idea as well so they had various joint presentations to persuade the shopfloor that this was a good idea. the main argument against it was that money paid into the bank wasn't 'real' since they couldn't see it or feel it. I suspect a lot of them would agree with your Dad. In the end it was just imposed on them.


It was imposed on my dad - he protested a lot - but he worked for a small building contractor who basically told him to fuck off or get paid via the bank.


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> To be honest I don't see the appeal of making phone-based payments,


One is that they use a virtual card. If those details are compromised, you don't have to get a new card, you can just cancel the virtual card.

The experience is pretty much the same, though. I tend to use it when shopping in the supermarket simply because I'm alreday using the app for scanning what I'm buying.


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## l'Otters (Aug 18, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Cash might not disappear, but fewer and fewer places ae going to accept it, access is going to be limited, and it might even be more expensive as available ATMs charge for withdrawals. The solution surely has to be making sure everyone has access to banking and electronic payments.
> 
> We've had debit cards since the 1980s, ATMs since the 1960s, I just don't buy the idea that people are too old to adapt. You can't fool me, I've seen the opinions shared on Facebook, the idea that old people can't use technology is bunk.


One of my friends cannot remember the pin for her debit card. It causes all kinds of knock on chaos if she tries to. eg. The machine eats the card because of too many wrong attempts, then a new card comes, but she hasn’t updated that card for the automatic payments for her phone, then she can’t make phone calls or send texts. The only way she can spend money is by tapping for contactless or by going in person into the bank to get cash out. With the latter she keeps track of her spending, with the former, it’s pretty impossible. Fortunately her income and spending isn’t wildly different so she’s not getting into debt.


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## MickiQ (Aug 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> To be honest I don't see the appeal of making phone-based payments, they don't seem to do anything that cash or contactless doesn't already do.


I use mine loads both through my phone and my smartwatch, they don't really provide much extra over the card itself but if you've got the devices anyway then its even easier to just tap my watch or my phone as to fish out my card.
One nice feature of the Android App is it keeps a log of transactions so I don't have to stuff my wallet with paper receipts. My son-in-law has a smart ring which he likes to tap on the card machine in the bar.


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## Elpenor (Aug 18, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> One is that they use a virtual card. If those details are compromised, you don't have to get a new card, you can just cancel the virtual card.
> 
> The experience is pretty much the same, though. I tend to use it when shopping in the supermarket simply because I'm alreday using the app for scanning what I'm buying.



I think fronting apps like Curve work like this.

The one time I tried using Apple Pay as I’d left my Barclaycard at home it didn’t work and I had to leave my shopping at Aldi and drive home.


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## marty21 (Aug 18, 2022)

I can pay with my phone but haven't bothered to date - it could come in useful if my wallet was nicked or I left it at home I guess.


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

The other advantage of phone payments is that you can use the phone's security features, like Touch ID. People can forget a PIN but rarely forget their fingers.


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## The39thStep (Aug 18, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> First place I worked (1976-1980), the staff were paid monthly into the bank and the shopfloor were paid weekly in cash. A big armoured truck would show up every week and they would queue up for their envelopes. The company wanted to move them onto being paid ino the bank (though initially still weekly) and the union supported the idea as well so they had various joint presentations to persuade the shopfloor that this was a good idea. the main argument against it was that money paid into the bank wasn't 'real' since they couldn't see it or feel it. I suspect a lot of them would agree with your Dad. In the end it was just imposed on them.


I remember when we went from being paid weekly cash to monthly bank I spent the month's pay in two weeks as I was only used to spending what I had in my pocket


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## DotCommunist (Aug 18, 2022)

from various readings of old crime and criminals I get the impression that wages vans were getting robbed almost constantly


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## Sasaferrato (Aug 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Yep, it's pretty bad being stuck behind someone who's labouriously counting out the cash they've just spent two minutes digging around for.



I remember as a boy waiting with my mother at the till behind someone who was counting out coins. Outside, I remarked what a pain it was, and why didn't they pay with a note or bigger value coins. My mother replied that they were doing it from necessity, not from choice.


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## RainbowTown (Aug 18, 2022)

The death of cash? Well, not quite yet. And a good thing too.









						‘Handing over cold hard cash makes you think twice’: the people ditching cards in the cost of living crisis
					

With inflation raging and real wages falling, more and more of us are taking an old-school approach to staying on top of spending. Suddenly coins and notes are back in favour




					www.theguardian.com


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## hash tag (Aug 18, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> The experience is pretty much the same, though. I tend to use it when shopping in the supermarket simply because I'm alreday using the app for scanning what I'm buying.


Why do you scan what you buy; I don't get it 🤔


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## Rob Ray (Aug 18, 2022)

This thread really is just a litany of accepting the onrushing dystopia of our every financial move being tracked and everyone below a certain level being pretty much fucked because it's a bit more convenient.


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## MickiQ (Aug 18, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> This thread really is just a litany of accepting the onrushing dystopia of our every financial move being tracked and everyone below a certain level being pretty much fucked because it's a bit more convenient.


How are we not fucked by using cash? It doesn't bring any more financial autonomy and the one advantage of it being a bit anonymous (and only a bit since drawing it out of the bank is recorded even if what it gets spent on is not) is that if gets lost or nicked then you are out of pocket.


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## Sasaferrato (Aug 18, 2022)

DotCommunist said:


> from various readings of old crime and criminals I get the impression that wages vans were getting robbed almost constantly



When I was awaiting my nursing course to start, I was in the section of depot called H&D, Holding and Drafting. We were used as labour for any other section that needed it.

One of the regular tasks was going to the bank to pick up the cash for the recruits and apprentice's pay. The apprentices got part of their money each week, with the rest being retained in 'credits' that were paid when they went on leave. A cash pick up when the apprentice credits were being paid was in excess of five grand, we were 'armed' with pick helves.  The general view was that in the event of someone with a gun, the money would be handed over without a fuss.

On a tangent, when I was back in depot writing the pharmacy section of the Combat Medical Technicians handbook, I got summoned by the Adjutant who briefed me for a task the next day.

I was to be picked up at 12:00, by a car with a driver and two guards armed with SMGs and taken to Brigade. At Brigade, the armed guards would escort me to the post room, where I would pick up a padlocked and sealed bag. I was to inspect the seal, and if satisfied, sign for the bag. We then drove back  to Keogh, where the guards escorted me to the Adjutants office. He inspected the seal, signed for the bag, and that was the end of my involvement.

Later in the day, i was playing badminton with the Adj and others. I took the opportunity to ask him what was in the bag. It was the NATO battle plan.


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Why do you scan what you buy; I don't get it 🤔


I use the shopping app to scan what I'm buying, putting it in my backpack as I go. I can then transfer it to the self-checkout using a QR code, hit "no bags", tap my phone on the card reader, hit "no receipt", and leave.

I know how much I'm going to spend before I reach the checkout, so that's another source of anxiety gone.

Also you have to hit "no receipt", leaving without hitting it and making the next person do it is tory behaviour.


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## Sasaferrato (Aug 18, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I use mine loads both through my phone and my smartwatch, they don't really provide much extra over the card itself but if you've got the devices anyway then its even easier to just tap my watch or my phone as to fish out my card.
> One nice feature of the Android App is it keeps a log of transactions so I don't have to stuff my wallet with paper receipts. My son-in-law has a smart ring which he likes to tap on the card machine in the bar.


Why not just chip us at birth?


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## Chz (Aug 18, 2022)

From someone who recently looked at getting a business account... You can get low fees for cash, where they utterly violate you for card payments, or you can get low fees for card, where they utterly violate you for cash deposits. There is no way to make both economical without eating some serious fees. The banks do it on purpose, for no reason other than they can.

That said, if your business is small enough that you can funnel any cash straight back into it, you can absolutely get a business account where the card fees are minimal - indeed less than they would charge for an all-cash account. Anyone who suggests otherwise hasn't looked.


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## marty21 (Aug 18, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Old payroll systems from this time had a coin analysis report which would calculate, and order the correct number of coins / notes for a payroll.
> 
> I’m not quite old enough to have paid people by cash though but the  risk of being robbed would have made pay day a bit more exciting I suppose


I did use to work with someone (he retired about 5 years ago) he took all his monthly pay out in cash on payday as he didn't trust banks - until he got mugged just after taking his monthly pay out of the bank - he stopped doing  it then.


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## marty21 (Aug 18, 2022)

Chz said:


> From someone who recently looked at getting a business account... You can get low fees for cash, where they utterly violate you for card payments, or you can get low fees for card, where they utterly violate you for cash deposits. There is no way to make both economical without eating some serious fees. The banks do it on purpose, for no reason other than they can.
> 
> That said, if your business is small enough that you can funnel any cash straight back into it, you can absolutely get a business account where the card fees are minimal - indeed less than they would charge for an all-cash account. Anyone who suggests otherwise hasn't looked.


My local pub prefers card payments now - although it will allow old regulars to pay in cash.  The manager prefers card payments as it is so much quicker to 'cash up' at the end of the night, and no visits to the bank with a bag full of cash either .


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why not just chip us at birth?


They'll be making us fill in forms and issuing certificates next.


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## hash tag (Aug 18, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why not just chip us at birth?


This was suggested many years ago. I am sure some employers would love for this to happen, alongside police, medical services etc.


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## Rob Ray (Aug 18, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> How are we not fucked by using cash? It doesn't bring any more financial autonomy and the one advantage of it being a bit anonymous (and only a bit since drawing it out of the bank is recorded even if what it gets spent on is not) is that if gets lost or nicked then you are out of pocket.


Other people do exist, Micki. Some, for example, are homeless and rely on cash from people who are less and less likely to carry it. Others can't open bank accounts. Or can't get cash wired to their account because it's immediately rinsed to cover debts. They are all pretty fucked. And that's before you get to the increasing demonising of cash payment as essentially being a form of fraud or part of the grey/black economy.

That "one advantage" of anonymity you're sneering at is a pretty fucking important one btw. Especially when your government ooh, I dunno, takes a sharp authoritarian turn which might end up using its extraordinary new access to the public's financial records to screw over perceived critics and dissidents.


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## xenon (Aug 18, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Also, a card is more traceable so if you tip someone by card they have to declare it for tax and might even pay tax on it
> 
> Its a real pain in the arse being stuck behind someone at a supermarket checkout who has to go searching for their phone, struggle to unlock it, then find the right app etc.
> 
> The middle button on the keypad is a 5. This has braille type dots on it for this reason as did older style push button phones



Okay try using one with your eyes shut. and a queue forming behind you. hint. It’s not about the buttons.


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## hash tag (Aug 18, 2022)

xenon said:


> Okay try using one with your eyes shut. and a queue forming behind you. hint. It’s not about the buttons.


There are queues at cash points, would you not show patience to someone with a disability. Failing that, it's possible to go into banks or post offices to get cash out with a card


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## furluxor (Aug 18, 2022)

I like cash and I'm worried about us turning into a cashless society. I've never had a smartphone, I don't pay the 'service charge' (although I do tip), I like being able to fish some money out for someone who needs it and I don't like having a digital log of my location / spending habits. For those reasons I pay in cash whenever I can and I might not bother again with places that don't accept it. A family member recently got spooked by this and interrogated me about my job until she was satisfied I'm not a secret drug lord.


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## NoXion (Aug 18, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Other people do exist, Micki. Some, for example, are homeless and rely on cash from people who are less and less likely to carry it. Others can't open bank accounts. Or can't get cash wired to their account because it's immediately rinsed to cover debts. They are all pretty fucked. And that's before you get to the increasing demonising of cash payment as essentially being a form of fraud or part of the grey/black economy.
> 
> That "one advantage" of anonymity you're sneering at is a pretty fucking important one btw. Especially when your government ooh, I dunno, takes a sharp authoritarian turn which might end up using its extraordinary new access to the public's financial records to screw over perceived critics and dissidents.



Any government like that doesn't need to find reasons, indeed it would be more work to do that, rather than just making shit up.


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## MickiQ (Aug 18, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Other people do exist, Micki. Some, for example, are homeless and rely on cash from people who are less and less likely to carry it. Others can't open bank accounts. Or can't get cash wired to their account because it's immediately rinsed to cover debts. They are all pretty fucked. And that's before you get to the increasing demonising of cash payment as essentially being a form of fraud or part of the grey/black economy.
> 
> That "one advantage" of anonymity you're sneering at is a pretty fucking important one btw. Especially when your government ooh, I dunno, takes a sharp authoritarian turn which might end up using its extraordinary new access to the public's financial records to screw over perceived critics and dissidents.


No-one on here is calling for the abolition of cash if you or anyone else wants to carry on using it feel free to do so. However the claim that using cash keeps you anonymous and provides any kind of protection against an authoritarian regime is nonsense.
Every such regime in history (and still in existence) and there have been loads have had no problems oppressing the population despite the lack of online banking and cashless transactions.


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## xenon (Aug 18, 2022)

hash tag said:


> There are queues at cash points, would you not show patience to someone with a disability. Failing that, it's possible to go into banks or post offices to get cash out with a card



The banks are all shutting. As for your first point. Don’t tell me what it’s like to try and use an ATM.


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## xenon (Aug 18, 2022)

I’ve already said I wouldn’t welcome a cashless society. But all these ATMs are accessible because they have bumps on buttons. Fuck off.


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## Rob Ray (Aug 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Any government like that doesn't need to find reasons, indeed it would be more work to do that, rather than just making shit up.


If you think giving the State more weapons isn't of concern because they already have some I think you're fundamentally being pretty naive tbh. If they can easily get you on something accurate they'll quite happily use that, particularly a government like, for example, the current Tory one which would rather maintain the pretence of still being a democracy/following the rule of law. They can, at least for now, still lose via a badly-constructed lie.



MickiQ said:


> No-one on here is calling for the abolition of cash


No-one here said anyone was calling for the abolition of cash, either. This is about the way in which people are joyfully celebrating/encouraging a situation which has the outcome of delegitimising and undermining the use of cash in ways which have very real negative impacts on others.



> the claim that using cash keeps you anonymous and provides any kind of protection against an authoritarian regime is nonsense.


That's er, certainly a take. I'd be _very _interested to see your evidence of revolutionary groups routinely using credit cards to purchase firearms. 

And if you can't see how an ability to track exactly when and where a purchase was made might be useable to, for example, find matches with co-conspirators' movements and build up a picture of a given target's social networks, hangouts, vulnerabilities etc, thus de-anonymising not just a given individual but a movement, then you're not looking very hard.


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

I've got tools that mean I'm nowhere near as shit with money as I used to be and I'm not going to feel bad about that because someone is worried their tinfoil millinery business can't be cash only.


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## Rob Ray (Aug 18, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> I've got tools that mean I'm nowhere near as shit with money as I used to be and I'm not going to feel bad about that because someone is worried their tinfoil millinery business can't be cash only.


And you're not going to feel bad the next time a homeless person asks you for a quid either, no doubt. Long as you're alright eh. Tinfoil millinery indeed.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 18, 2022)

hash tag said:


> There are queues at cash points, would you not show patience to someone with a disability. Failing that, it's possible to go into banks or post offices to get cash out with a card


They cannae see the screen Hashtag


----------



## NoXion (Aug 18, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> If you think giving the State more weapons isn't of concern because they already have some I think you're fundamentally being pretty naive tbh. If they can easily get you on something accurate they'll quite happily use that, particularly a government like, for example, the current Tory one which would rather maintain the pretence of still being a democracy/following the rule of law. They can, at least for now, still lose via a badly-constructed lie.



You agree that cash isn't going away, so if you want to withdraw that grand or so to to donate to the Clapham Revolutionary Front or whatever idle fantasy, then you can still do so.

With or without contactless payments though, you're still going to need an alibi for that withdrawal if the government picks you up on it.



Rob Ray said:


> And you're not going to feel bad the next time a homeless person asks you for a quid either, no doubt. Long as you're alright eh. Tinfoil millinery indeed.



I never feel bad turning down people who ask me for money. That's my choice and mine alone to make. It's my fucking money after all.


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## hash tag (Aug 18, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert, Even xenon concedes they have bumps on the buttons to assist,  not foolproof admittedly.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 18, 2022)

There's a community fridge here now and I had to put a tenner as a donation cause I couldn't break it, it opens when all the shops are shut. This and tipping are my main annoyances re not being used to withdrawing cash or organising change for things. Our ATM is now gone, so withdrawing cash has to happen at the post office in the shop that shuts at 5, or 6 or bloody 2 on a Sunday   What a bloody mare. But in good news, community fridge eh! They sometimes get meat from FLETTS!


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## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 18, 2022)

hash tag said:


> HoratioCuthbert, Even xenon concedes they have bumps on the buttons to assist,  not foolproof admittedly.


Xenon just gave up, if you don't know what the atm is asking for - your pin? The service you want? - then you may as well do a Russell Brand and just stand there quoting your pin at folk.


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## Rob Ray (Aug 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> You agree that cash isn't going away ... whatever idle fantasy.


Yes of course, because I was clearly referencing a personal fantasy land rather than looking at the potentialities of how dissent, should it emerge, might be more efficiently repressed via previously unused technological powers. We don't live in a static world in which the social situation will always be relatively stable and the government will always be (relatively) reluctant to take the gloves off, this sort of thing is often considered by even quite liberal NGOs.

And indeed cash isn't going away, but as I've said multiple times, my issue is not with whether cash exists, it's with the mindless cheerleading of cashless society that will render life more difficult for a number of people and endeavours, including political dissent.



NoXion said:


> I never feel bad turning down people who ask me for money.


Yes I figured that. Everything about your attitude so far has screamed "I'm alright Jack."


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## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 18, 2022)

I didn't expect the cash thread to get so heated but it is urban.


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## NoXion (Aug 18, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Yes of course, because I was clearly referencing a personal fantasy land rather than looking at the potentialities of how dissent, should it emerge, might be more efficiently repressed via previously unused technological powers. We don't live in a static world in which the social situation will always be relatively stable and the government will always be (relatively) reluctant to take the gloves off, this sort of thing is often considered by quite liberal NGOs.



If the government are taking the gloves off, then it doesn't matter whether you use cash or not. The money is coming out of your account regardless and they will certainly ask some very pointed questions about that, and if they're looking to make an example of you then they won't actually give a shit about your answers.


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## Rob Ray (Aug 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> If the government are taking the gloves off, then it doesn't matter whether you use cash or not.


I've offered multiple examples of how cashless does exactly that.


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## NoXion (Aug 18, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I've offered multiple examples of how cashless does exactly that.



The one concrete example you offered (vigil arrests) had nothing to do with cash vs cashless at all. The rest have been vague generalities.


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## hash tag (Aug 18, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> They cannae see the screen Hashtag





HoratioCuthbert said:


> Xenon just gave up, if you don't know what the atm is asking for - your pin? The service you want? - then you may as well do a Russell Brand and just stand there quoting your pin at folk.


A very quick easy link before bedtime 





						Visually Impaired | Accessibility - HSBC UK
					

At HSBC we have range of services to help the visually impaired with all their banking needs. Find out more by visiting HSBC today.




					www.hsbc.co.uk


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Long as you're alright eh.


Not really. It's happening, whether we like it or not. Cash isn't going away but those who only use cash are, as I said above, going to get an increasingly raw deal. My point is pretty much the opposite of "long as I'm alright" "eh".


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## seeformiles (Aug 18, 2022)

I’m another one with no smartphone which I’m finding excludes me from certain services. A pub near me has decided to go cashless and only allows customers to order with a smartphone app. I tried to pay with just a card, but the drinks are more expensive if I do. I used to go there a lot but no more and I don’t think I’m alone in this either. Even if I did own a smartphone, the encouragement to put all your eggs in that one digital basket is just too risky for me. Besides, how am I going to pay my drug dealer or any other black market transactions for that matter? Cash is still king in my world.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 18, 2022)

hash tag said:


> A very quick easy link before bedtime
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That you've literally just googled just now because up until a moment a go you couldn't understand why someone couldn't get along with just bumps on the buttons, so you are in no position to patronise lol.
Whilst I was aware there are talking ATMs, my guess was this isn't a universal feature nor is it standardised. I was right on both counts (this link is a few years old but I imagine given they are closing banks down left right and centre things won't have drastically improved)






						Guide to accessible online banking
					






					www.rnib.org.uk


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## Rob Ray (Aug 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> The one concrete example you offered (vigil arrests) had nothing to do with cash vs cashless at all. The rest have been vague generalities.


There's nothing vague about them, I offered multiple specific examples of how cashless can potentially be exploited by government actors. What you're asking for is concrete examples of this occurring, which is a nonsensical request in a conversation about the potentialities of a new phenomenon.



liquidindian said:


> My point is pretty much the opposite of "long as I'm alright" "eh".


Your quoted response focused on "tin foil millinery" and ignored the bit about how others are concretely affected. Hence my reply. If you actually do give a damn about people whose lives are being damaged by the shift you could stand to be a bit less flippant.


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## moochedit (Aug 18, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I didn't expect the cash thread to get so heated but it is urban.


Surprised the crypto nuts haven't turned up yet


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## liquidindian (Aug 18, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> a bit less flippant.


No. If you want to assume things about me because I'm not taking your paranoia seriously, that's up to you.


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## Rob Ray (Aug 18, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> No. If you want to assume things about me because I'm not taking your paranoia seriously, that's up to you.


If you don't understand what paranoia means don't use it in sentences, let alone start trying to assume it.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 18, 2022)

l'Otters said:


> One of my friends cannot remember the pin for her debit card. It causes all kinds of knock on chaos if she tries to. eg. The machine eats the card because of too many wrong attempts, then a new card comes, but she hasn’t updated that card for the automatic payments for her phone, then she can’t make phone calls or send texts. The only way she can spend money is by tapping for contactless or by going in person into the bank to get cash out. With the latter she keeps track of her spending, with the former, it’s pretty impossible. Fortunately her income and spending isn’t wildly different so she’s not getting into debt.


Has she considered changing it to something else?

Mine is the year of publication of a book. No connection to me and if I forgot it I can look it up.


----------



## DaphneM (Aug 18, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> The other advantage of phone payments is that you can use the phone's security features, like Touch ID. People can forget a PIN but rarely forget their fingers.


My ancient aunt finds it hard to use Touch ID. But then she also got pick pocketed when she took large amount of cash out of the bank.

There are very limited to no benefits to cash, it will disappear & good riddence


----------



## l'Otters (Aug 19, 2022)

emanymton said:


> Has she considered changing it to something else?
> 
> Mine is the year of publication of a book. No connection to me and if I forgot it I can look it up.


Every time any number combo it gets confused forgotten mixed up … I think panic about the whole thing plays a part in that tbh…


----------



## xenon (Aug 19, 2022)

hash tag said:


> A very quick easy link before bedtime
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fuck off hashtag. Maybe you didn't know but you are telling a blind man what's accessible and what isn't. Either way though, have a think.


----------



## xenon (Aug 19, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> That you've literally just googled just now because up until a moment a go you couldn't understand why someone couldn't get along with just bumps on the buttons, so you are in no position to patronise lol.
> Whilst I was aware there are talking ATMs, my guess was this isn't a universal feature nor is it standardised. I was right on both counts (this link is a few years old but I imagine given they are closing banks down left right and centre things won't have drastically improved)
> 
> 
> ...



Also, pulling out headphones to plug into an aTM in the street, isn't exactly convenient. I'm not particularly frail but I wouldn't feel that safe about withdrawing cash whilst, my back is turned, hearing occupied and I'm tethered to the machine.


----------



## xenon (Aug 19, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Xenon just gave up, if you don't know what the atm is asking for - your pin? The service you want? - then you may as well do a Russell Brand and just stand there quoting your pin at folk.



Exactly. If there's no cash in the machine, if your card has an error. Why's nothing happening, what's the message on the screen. Also, the one I knew how to use, the shortcut cash buttons which aren't in amount order, I forgot as it was off access all through lock down. Not like you can just go up to them and have a practise or ask a stranger, hey mate can you help me get 50 quid out of this. 
 

Anyways. Must go out...


----------



## xenon (Aug 19, 2022)

seeformiles said:


> I’m another one with no smartphone which I’m finding excludes me from certain services. A pub near me has decided to go cashless and only allows customers to order with a smartphone app. I tried to pay with just a card, but the drinks are more expensive if I do. I used to go there a lot but no more and I don’t think I’m alone in this either. Even if I did own a smartphone, the encouragement to put all your eggs in that one digital basket is just too risky for me. Besides, how am I going to pay my drug dealer or any other black market transactions for that matter? Cash is still king in my world.



And this is shit too. My local, pre 2020, only accepted cards if over a fiver. Since then, still using an app and no cash. Loads of the old regulars have not returned due to this. Pub has suffered socially because of it IMO. Conversely there's another pub I know which only takes cash. have been there once in the last 2 years... Can't be that hard to have both.


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## hash tag (Aug 19, 2022)

Fwiw I generally use ATMs that are inside banks and building societies and would not usually use a street one because of the risk.


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## weltweit (Aug 19, 2022)

I don't like the idea that cash is on the way out but my own practice is that way, I use my contactless card way more than I should even for a couple of drinks on the way to the office where I swipe for £2.08 which I should or could pay cash for.


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## moochedit (Aug 19, 2022)

I think i'm about 95% card payments these days. My cash withdrawels dropped a lot once i gave up weed 

Still i know not everyone likes cards and some prefer cash so i wouldn't want cash abolished.


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## weltweit (Aug 19, 2022)

Even AA roadside repair vans carry a card payment machine these days!

For things like batteries.


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## moochedit (Aug 19, 2022)

weltweit said:


> Even AA roadside repair vans carry a card payment machine these days!
> 
> For things like batteries.


Yeah you can get mobile card readors. The food van that visits my work car park has one.


----------



## DaphneM (Aug 19, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why not just chip us at birth?





liquidindian said:


> Not really. It's happening, whether we like it or not. Cash isn't going away but those who only use cash are, as I said above, going to get an increasingly raw deal. My point is pretty much the opposite of "long as I'm alright" "eh".


People who only use cash will essentially just die off eventually


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## brogdale (Aug 19, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> People who only use cash will essentially just die off eventually


I've got some bad news for the smug cashless classes...


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## liquidindian (Aug 19, 2022)

Cash makes you immortal?


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## hash tag (Aug 20, 2022)

Spending cash means it is harder for your partner to keep track of your spending.


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## marty21 (Aug 20, 2022)

I have so far today only used cash , had a sausage sandwich & coffee , then went and got my hair cut .


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## liquidindian (Aug 20, 2022)

This is definitely a problem if cash goes away. I thought this made for interesting reading, though I'm sceptical about the use of AI.








						Banks aren’t dealing with financial abuse. Monzo has an answer
					

Reports of financial and economic abuse have risen during the pandemic – and banks need to be better at dealing with the problem




					www.wired.co.uk


----------



## liquidindian (Aug 20, 2022)

marty21 said:


> I have so far today only used cash , had a sausage sandwich & coffee , then went and got my hair cut .


That's as often as I've used cash all year. Once because the dry cleaners only took cash and the other because the Netherlands favours Maestro and Albert Heijn doesn't take Mastercard.


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## weltweit (Aug 20, 2022)

Yes, I pay my barber in cash ..


----------



## ska invita (Aug 20, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Similar at the barbers near me. You don't even have to tap your card, it's all on the app, and it's not like it's a dead fancy place (I go there, for a start).
> 
> I can only speak for myself but I'm more inclined to tip when it works this way.






ask for a bit off the fringe next time


----------



## liquidindian (Aug 20, 2022)

That was back when my Dad cut my hair, no way he's getting a tip for his efforts.


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## weltweit (Aug 20, 2022)

I don't tip my barber, £8.00 for a few minute's work with an electric trimmer is pay enough


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 20, 2022)

Cash was what got me out my abusive relationship years ago. Financial abuse is complicated and can be difficult to identify when you're in the thick of it. The fact that I'd just naturally accumulated a couple hundred quid in change and not only managed to hide it from my partner, but somehow managed to hide it from myself, was the difference between my life completely collapsing around me and keeping the damage of the relationship relatively contained.


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 20, 2022)

I also think cash can have a lot of problems and become a catalyst for abusive situations too.


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## DaphneM (Aug 20, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I've got some bad news for the smug cashless classes...


But they will be replaced by new cashless people.

The cash only are dinosaurs


----------



## marty21 (Aug 20, 2022)

weltweit said:


> I don't tip my barber, £8.00 for a few minute's work with an electric trimmer is pay enough


I do tip them , gave him £15 for a £12 cut.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 20, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> But they will be replaced by new cashless people.
> 
> The cash only are dinosaurs


you really are quite the model customer


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 20, 2022)

I think this may be my least favourite thread on Urban. Smug tossers celebrating the literal death of cash users. Fuck the people who can't be involved in the shiny future dystopia, fuck the fears of those who see misuse coming down the line, beep beep toodle pip.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 20, 2022)

Steve Hughes talking about the homeless charities, don't give your money directly, give it to us and .. we will make sure they get it :/ I prefer to give directly, I know where my money is going, here it is going to this guy with three socks and no shoes, and now its going to the off licence  .. So they will only spend it on drink and drugs, what did you think I was going to spend it on


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## Rob Ray (Aug 20, 2022)

https://worldfinancialreview.com/why-cashless-economy-tends-to-restrict-freedoms-and-widen-inequalities/


----------



## SysOut (Aug 20, 2022)

Credit cards have been around for a long time.
But the main means for paying large amounts was to use cheques.
So the idea of "cashless society" when it is meant only in the context of large payments, is absurd. A strawman.
The templars even had a bankers draft system in the middle ages...

What is absurd is the idea of using electronic payments for daily neads.
It's environementally and logistically absurd.
The some public toilets here in Brussels only accept debit cards - for a payment of 50 centimes!

Have any of the e-payment fans here worked what is involved in a payment transaction? How many devices and servers are involved until one account gets credited and another gets debited? 

What happens if there's a power failure, server failure ?

Some years ago, yes, on a saturday afternoon, the servers failed for part of the city centre here in Brussels.

It was great!!! (for me)

The security guards stood at the doors to the stores, saying "Sorry, cash only".
So we with cash could shop in peace and no queues 

There were some cafés and shops which were strictly "cash only"

Now, the govt. has passed a law which makes it obligatory to accept e-payments.

A bit absurd, of course, if your card reader/swiper isn't working.
(Oh! Sorry sir, the reader's not working - could you pay in cash?)

I'd better explain that I worked with international payments systems - to wit - wrote the software and was responsible for the operations - known as "clearing".

We had to be operational - there's no tomorrow in banking - it's always "cash" on the nail with payments. A "no show" and you have to pay penalty interest - because of the damage caused to others  (hence bank collapses are very dangerous).

If all payments were done electronically it would be very easy to bring this country to its knees, start rioting etc.
Worth considering since everyone is so eager to go to war - we already are at war - the siege stage - just like the Romans...

If we are not talking about "all payments", then there is no discussion - large amounts were either paid by check to, like on the continent with internet puchases, by bank-to-bank transfer.

Now to the fun part of cash 
When I lived in Spain, when buying a TV or something like that, you might be asked in advance, whether you wanted a receipt - because if you didn't, then it was much cheaper - you didn't pay any VAT... win-win - the shopkeeper didn't declare the sale.
This also applied to house and flat purchases.
People from the UK or Germany would bring about a third of the price in carrier bags - and thus save enormously on VAT and other taxes!

This had tradition.
At the time of the first Wilson government, you could only take 50 quid out of the country.
So, of course, people smuggled it out - especially to buy the then very cheap properties in Spain.

Of course cash helps criminals, but I do not agree with "collective punishment" - that the majority should suffer because of a tiny, tiny minority.
There were and are other ways of dealing with those criminals.

The nightmare scenario is the one depicted in Ocean's 12: remember the scene where Saul Bloom discovers in the restaurant that he can't pay the bill because all his credit cards were rejected? 

False positive of some sort or just a manual error somewhere in the system.

The frightening part being, with so much outsourcing, you don't know who's responsible - but you are fucked - in a cashless society.

Anyway, if I've understood the thread correctly - everyone agrees that it cannot be the end of cash - just as cheques weren't the end of cash


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## liquidindian (Aug 21, 2022)

what


----------



## Koknbul (Aug 21, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Has cash had its day?
> 
> Pay by cash? Not for long, report warns Pay by cash? Not for long, report warns
> 
> I find the idea of capitalist transactions without the option to use physical cash very depressing. I hate the idea of relying on electronic transactions.  I hate the idea of the people being left behind. My Dad won’t be able to run his life without cash.


I understand, Its the next phase, Adapt or Cash out & go digital ?


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## NoXion (Aug 21, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Spending cash means it is harder for your partner to keep track of your spending.



Do people really still use joint accounts? That sounds super anachronistic. "I'll have the chicken salad, and so will my wife".


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## Rob Ray (Aug 21, 2022)

Jfc as though an abusive partner needs a joint account to control outgoings. It's a standard login, done at home. Join the dots.









						Financial and economic abuse - Women’s Aid
					






					www.womensaid.org.uk


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## liquidindian (Aug 21, 2022)

Still pretty common, at least according to this survey. 


			https://www.moneysupermarket.com/current-accounts/opening-joint-account-couple/


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## mojo pixy (Aug 21, 2022)

The other plus of coins of course, is you can file the edges and use them as fairly dangerous missile weapons, like mini shurikens (sp?). In fact when cash finally dies that'll pretty much be the only thing left to do with them.


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## MickiQ (Aug 21, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Do people really still use joint accounts? That sounds super anachronistic. "I'll have the chicken salad, and so will my wife".


Mrs Q and I have a joint account, my salary has always been paid into it both from the days I worked for Evil American Megacorp and now that I am self-employed. She took a decade long career break whilst the kids were small and it was the simplest way to give her access to money and quite frankly I could never be arsed to change it. She is far more sensible with money than I am. Her salary is paid into her own account though along with her share of the dividends when MickiQ Inc pays them out. My share of the dividends is paid into a seperate savings account.


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## hash tag (Aug 21, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Do people really still use joint accounts? That sounds super anachronistic. "I'll have the chicken salad, and so will my wife".


We have never had a joint bank account. If you spend cash, there is no "paper trail" that can be checked by a partner regardless of it being a single or joint account.


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## Chz (Aug 21, 2022)

We have a joint credit card for major purchases (which the mrs almost never uses) and the mortgage is joint. But beyond that we both do our own thing. Even the household bills are split up between us so we can each keep some sort of "proof of address".


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## MickiQ (Aug 21, 2022)

Chz said:


> We have a joint credit card for major purchases (which the mrs almost never uses) and the mortgage is joint. But beyond that we both do our own thing. Even the household bills are split up between us so we can each keep some sort of "proof of address".


All the utility bills were originally in my name (paid out of the joint account) until Mrs Q needed one for 'proof of address' so we moved the phone/broadband bill (chosen on the grounds that since it came monthly, the sooner we would get one with her name on it) into her name (though it continued to be paid from the same account) It was a right palaver to do it though, I must have made a half dozen phone calls chasing it up. They seemed to have got it into their heads we were trying to pull some kind of scam.


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## kabbes (Aug 22, 2022)

Our finances are completely shared. I’ve never understood doing things separately. What happens when one of you can afford to do what you want and the other is on their uppers?  The richer one gleefully goes on holiday and buys themself stuff while the other tightens their belt? I’ve always earned a lot more than the kabbess, and I’ve had felt like a right prick hoarding it to myself. What’s mine is hers.


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## seeformiles (Aug 22, 2022)

We have a joint account for bills and other household expenses but both keep separate sole accounts and credit cards. Never seen any need to change.


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## muscovyduck (Aug 22, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Cash was what got me out my abusive relationship years ago. Financial abuse is complicated and can be difficult to identify when you're in the thick of it. The fact that I'd just naturally accumulated a couple hundred quid in change and not only managed to hide it from my partner, but somehow managed to hide it from myself, was the difference between my life completely collapsing around me and keeping the damage of the relationship relatively contained.


It will be interesting to see how I behave in a new relationship with my attitude to joint accounts/separate finances and so on. Part of the problem with this one was that there was an illusion we were contributing equal expenses, and that this was the right thing to do.

It seems common in my generation in my community to go with separate finances and a joint account for bills, but this inevitably ends up with someone treating the joint account like a piggy bank. It also doesn't deal with the underlying problem of attitude to money, or even what the decision process about the bills was in the first place


----------



## Chz (Aug 22, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Our finances are completely shared. I’ve never understood doing things separately. What happens when one of you can afford to do what you want and the other is on their uppers?  The richer one gleefully goes on holiday and buys themself stuff while the other tightens their belt? I’ve always earned a lot more than the kabbess, and I’ve had felt like a right prick hoarding it to myself. What’s mine is hers.


What's mine is hers, and I'll pay for it. _shrug_ 
This all reminds me that we need to re-allocate the bills. I got the Big One in the mortgage, but I've been overpaying so massively on it that when our energy fixed rate ends I expect it to be more than the mortgage is.


----------



## strung out (Aug 22, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Our finances are completely shared. I’ve never understood doing things separately. What happens when one of you can afford to do what you want and the other is on their uppers?  The richer one gleefully goes on holiday and buys themself stuff while the other tightens their belt? I’ve always earned a lot more than the kabbess, and I’ve had felt like a right prick hoarding it to myself. What’s mine is hers.


Yes, I think this is quite normal and a lot of my financial stresses became easier once we started paying bills from a joint account and using a shared credit card to pay for most things. I earn less than my wife and came into the marriage with significantly less wealth. 

What I think is more worrying on this thread is things like cash being a great way of hiding spending from your wife. Weird behaviour and red flag for a dysfunctional relationship in my view.


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## marty21 (Aug 22, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Do people really still use joint accounts? That sounds super anachronistic. "I'll have the chicken salad, and so will my wife".


We do , for bills & stuff , cuts down on arguing.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 22, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> It will be interesting to see how I behave in a new relationship with my attitude to joint accounts/separate finances and so on. Part of the problem with this one was that there was an illusion we were contributing equal expenses, and that this was the right thing to do.
> 
> It seems common in my generation in my community to go with separate finances and a joint account for bills, but this inevitably ends up with someone treating the joint account like a piggy bank. It also doesn't deal with the underlying problem of attitude to money, or even what the decision process about the bills was in the first place


Mrs21 is now retired & I'm still working , I pay more into the joint account , doesn't bother me .


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## skyscraper101 (Aug 22, 2022)

Separate bank accounts but OH is named on a couple of my credit cards which debit from my bank for groceries etc.


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## Dom Traynor (Aug 22, 2022)

I find bank transfers and my banking app (apps are excellent here I think better than the UK) and using Google Pay on my phone have massively helped me keep track of my spending and control it. If I'm going to a big gig for instance where I know I'll get drunk I just create a sub account on my app with a low amount of money and connect that to my Google Pay. Once it's gone it's gone but I can top it up in 2 mins if I really want to. 

Christ I think the last time I bought weed I even did a bank transfer.


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## Chz (Aug 22, 2022)

I suppose I should add that, while my SO earns half what I do, she still has enough money on hand to buy most things short of a car. Which is something I'd hope to discuss jointly. 
We are frug... Cheap bastards.


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## hash tag (Aug 22, 2022)

strung out said:


> Yes, I think this is quite normal and a lot of my financial stresses became easier once we started paying bills from a joint account and using a shared credit card to pay for most things. I earn less than my wife and came into the marriage with significantly less wealth.
> 
> What I think is more worrying on this thread is things like cash being a great way of hiding spending from your wife. Weird behaviour and red flag for a dysfunctional relationship in my view.


If you are in an abusive relationship, it's a way of saving up some funds to get out of that relationship without your partner knowing.


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## oxygenthief (Aug 22, 2022)

Something that struck me today, I went from very rural mid-Wales to my dentist in Aberystwyth. After treatment (filling repair as you ask, thank you for caring) used a public toilet. To get in cost 20p but you could only pay with a contactless card. 

If you are homeless and bank accountless then that's you excluded from a place to have a shit, and a wash.

This maybe normal, I don't know, I don't spend much time in the world.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Aug 22, 2022)

oxygenthief said:


> Something that struck me today, I went from very rural mid-Wales to my dentist in Aberystwyth. After treatment (filling repair as you ask, thank you for caring) used a public toilet. To get in cost 20p but you could only pay with a contactless card.
> 
> If you are homeless and bank accountless then that's you excluded from a place to have a shit, and a wash.
> 
> This maybe normal, I don't know, I don't spend much time in the world.


It may be becoming normalised, but we should never accept it as normal. I think it's wrong to charge people for doing their business anyway, but to use toilet access as yet another weapon against the homeless is disgusting.


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## MickiQ (Aug 22, 2022)

What percentage of public loos charge to use? The last pay one I saw was at Bath Park & Ride and that was 20p but it did take coins
Agree though people shouldn't be charged for taking a piss


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## Dom Traynor (Aug 23, 2022)

Public toilets are all free here in New Zealand and generally much better quality and more regularly cleaned than the UK. My view is that free and usable public toilets are a human right and an environmental benefit to everyone.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 23, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> Public toilets are all free here in New Zealand and generally much better quality and more regularly cleaned than the UK. My view is that free and usable public toilets are a human right and an environmental benefit to everyone.



There are quite a few card-only pay public toilets around here. That seems like a pretty clear violation of human rights as not everyone will be able to access them.

Standard practice is to pay your 20p then hold the door open for the next person or prop it open with a pebble on your way out.


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## LeytonCatLady (Aug 23, 2022)

All the Network Rail termini used to charge 20p (went up to 30p?) but are now free as of April 2019. Long overdue. But at Birmingham New Street, you could pull the handle back slightly which gave enough space to squeeze through, as long as the attendant wasn't looking.


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## Elpenor (Aug 23, 2022)

National express coach stations still seem to charge or at least Digbeth does.  Victoria was free. Can’t remember if Bristol did.


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## marty21 (Aug 23, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> What percentage of public loos charge to use? The last pay one I saw was at Bath Park & Ride and that was 20p but it did take coins
> Agree though people shouldn't be charged for taking a piss


The one I use the most is in Liverpool St Station and it used to charge 20p , which could be a faff (although it did have a change machine) . It went free a few years ago 😎


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## MickiQ (Aug 23, 2022)

LeytonCatLady said:


> All the Network Rail termini used to charge 20p (went up to 30p?) but are now free as of April 2019. Long overdue. But at Birmingham New Street, you could pull the handle back slightly which gave enough space to squeeze through, as long as the attendant wasn't looking.


I didn't know that NR bogs are now free, the lack of toilet facilities was always another black mark against using the train as far as I'm concerned. The last time I used a train would have been about mid-2019 clearly I didn't need to go or I would have discovered this excellent fact.


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## DaphneM (Aug 23, 2022)

hash tag said:


> If you are in an abusive relationship, it's a way of saving up some funds to get out of that relationship without your partner knowing.


what is also a great way is  a separate account which you can set up with out your partner knowing - and then you dont need to hide wads of cash


----------



## DaphneM (Aug 23, 2022)

strung out said:


> Yes, I think this is quite normal and a lot of my financial stresses became easier once we started paying bills from a joint account and using a shared credit card to pay for most things. I earn less than my wife and came into the marriage with significantly less wealth.
> 
> What I think is more worrying on this thread is things like cash being a great way of hiding spending from your wife. Weird behaviour and red flag for a dysfunctional relationship in my view.


so many red flags on this thread imho


----------



## geminisnake (Aug 23, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> But they will be replaced by new cashless people.
> 
> The cash only are dinosaurs


do you genuinely trust the banks and other financial services to go to digital only?? Fuck that


----------



## xenon (Aug 23, 2022)

marty21 said:


> The one I use the most is in Liverpool St Station and it used to charge 20p , which could be a faff (although it did have a change machine) . It went free a few years ago 😎



Glad to hear they've made them free. I remember when they put the pay barriers in at train station bogs. My mum worked near Liverpool Street so would go there sometimes as a kid.


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## NoXion (Aug 23, 2022)

Charging people to use toilets is bullshit, regardless of whether they demand cash or card.


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## MickiQ (Aug 23, 2022)

The last pay khazi we used was the one at Lansdown Park & Ride in Bath last year, that cost 20p so I put the coin in and Mrs Q went in first and then when she came out, I slipped in without letting the door close. I did wonder briefly if it would then lock me in for cheating it out of a second coin but it did not. It wasn't all that clean either tbh, I thought the whole point of pay khazi's was extra funding to keep them clean & fresh.


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## moochedit (Aug 23, 2022)

Don't recall ever seeing a chargable toilet in the UK (although i've seen them in Amsterdam before). But i agree they should be free.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 23, 2022)

I hate pay toilets and I think its beyond a joke to put one in the bus station where people are getting off the bus often needing a slash quite urgently and theres a turnstile that takes 20p pieces and only 20p pieces.  Grasping cunts. What level of hell are we on where micturition is a luxury to be paid for


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## BristolEcho (Aug 23, 2022)

I don't think the pay barriers are there to make money as a first priority.* More to put certain groups of people off of using them, in particular homeless people and other people they don't want in the stations. Scummy really. 

*Though I'm sure that is part of it too.


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## NoXion (Aug 23, 2022)

The last pay toilet I saw was only blocked off by a turnstile. If I was really desperate I could have hopped over it.


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## kabbes (Aug 23, 2022)

NoXion said:


> The last pay toilet I saw was only blocked off by a turnstile. If I was really desperate I could have hopped over it.


Of course, the older members of society are those more likely to be desperate but less likely to be able to hop over the turnstile


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## NoXion (Aug 23, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Of course, the older members of society are those more likely to be desperate but less likely to be able to hop over the turnstile


I don't give a shit if I'm 80+ years and need two sticks to walk, I am gonna struggle past that barrier to the khazi. They can fine me afterwards. I don't give a shit


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## hash tag (Aug 24, 2022)

Then there are of course all the people that fuel the use of cash in society by giving it as presents.


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## liquidindian (Aug 24, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Then there are of course all the people that fuel the use of cash in society by giving it as presents.


Up until a few years ago the record for the most cash withdrawn at ATMs in a day would be broken every December in the week leading up to Christmas. Presumably a chunk of that would be to put inside Christmas cards.









						Christmas brings record UK ATM cash withdrawal figures
					

The 23rd of December was an all-time record day for Link cash machine withdrawals in the UK as Brits scrambled to take out £730 million in the lead up to Christmas.




					www.finextra.com
				




Also I believe that giving cash to younger relatives is an Eid tradition? I seem to remember someone telling me that it sucks as you get older as you give more and receive less...


----------



## marty21 (Aug 24, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Up until a few years ago the record for the most cash withdrawn at ATMs in a day would be broken every December in the week leading up to Christmas. Presumably a chunk of that would be to put inside Christmas cards.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I still give cash to one nephew, he's 18 now, I gave him £100 last Christmas , my sister told me he just paid in into his bank account (or more likely, gave it to his mum who they transferred it) . He's the last of the young uns to give cash to. Occasionally I'll do a bank transfer to my niece (who has the makings of an eternal student , and is about to start her masters , probably followed by PhD)


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Aug 24, 2022)

My kids are 11 and 7, and even they don’t want cash anymore, far easier to just transfer into their accounts so they can use contactless cards.


----------



## cesare (Aug 24, 2022)

marty21 said:


> I still give cash to one nephew, he's 18 now, I gave him £100 last Christmas , my sister told me he just paid in into his bank account (or more likely, gave it to his mum who they transferred it) . He's the last of the young uns to give cash to. Occasionally I'll do a bank transfer to my niece (who has the makings of an eternal student , and is about to start her masters , probably followed by PhD)


My niece is just a year younger, she asks for cash.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 24, 2022)

I have noticed a definite uptick in people paying with cash at work recently. I think some people are using it as a budgeting tool (it's easier to keep a tight grip on what you're spending if you physically give it over rather than tapping a magic card).


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 24, 2022)

I always used to send my nieces and nephews money in a card for their birthday until each of them turned 21.  All of them on my side of the family now have, the only under 21 year old on my side of the family is Youngest Q who is currently costing me a fortune anyway on account of being a University student. There are still two others below the cutoff on Mrs Q's side though. I carried on the tradition with my grandnieces and grandnephews up until the Lurgy and instead of sending them money directly I sent it via bank transfer to their parents. (directly to the older pair) I have thought about going back to cash in a card but it seems just so much faff to do it that way now. My oldest grandniece turns 16 this December so she probably has a bank account by now perhaps I should ask for details so I can send it to her direct.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 24, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I don't give a shit if I'm 80+ years and need two sticks to walk, I am gonna struggle past that barrier to the khazi. They can fine me afterwards. I don't give a shit


At that age just piss in the middle of the bus station.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 24, 2022)

I went to one in hyde park recently that was 20p to use and took cards. I tried presenting an American express and it seems they were not accepted so the gatekeeper just let me in for free.


----------



## BassJunkie (Aug 24, 2022)

We spent the weekend at Camp Bestival. Nowhere accepted cash. If my ten year old wanted to go on a ride I had to give her a card to pay which she then handed back to me before going on the ride.

It would have been more simple to give her some cash.

As for shared bank accounts, Mrs Bassjunkie and I have our own accounts. 

Primarily, if I look at how much money I've got left now (If I'm lucky) knowing I get paid tomorrow, let's say it's £80. I know I can put some petrol into the car. If Mrs Bassjunkie was also looking at the amount and reached the same decision one of us would be disappointed.  

It's pretty much - I can see how much money I've got left. The same applies for her.  We do share the bills though, she pays some, I pay some. Often, at the end of the month, I'll owe her some money, because she's booked stuff to do with the children and the like.


----------



## xenon (Aug 24, 2022)

Oh that's a point. Cash can be dangerous on fair ground rides. loose coins dropping from mid air. See Nope for extreme example...


----------



## Cid (Aug 24, 2022)

BassJunkie said:


> We spent the weekend at Camp Bestival. Nowhere accepted cash. If my ten year old wanted to go on a ride I had to give her a card to pay which she then handed back to me before going on the ride.
> 
> It would have been more simple to give her some cash.



Not for the organisers though... I think that's going to be a major factor in this transition. In the past any small-medium business, one-off festi etc had to be cash ready by default... Cost of processing, security issues etc don't matter because it would be the primary mode of payment. The card processing is an additional expense (and - in the recentish past - a not insignificant one). That has flipped - the default payment method for most of those businesses will be card. Cash (as in people who only use cash and won't come back with a card) will only represent a minority of transactions. When cash is no longer your default, the systems you need for processing and handling it will become something of a ridiculous inconvenience/expense relative to the benefit it brings... So you get rid of that. I know even some larger shops are limiting cash transactions these days. N.b I am rather obviously ignoring that those people are going to be marginalised, but y'know, so are most businesses.

On the gift side in China - beacon of where we want to be  - you can send red packets (the traditional new years money) via wechat. You can also do small personal transactions through it (I say small, iirc the limit is fairly high). Easy for very small businesses too - you don't need a card reader, just scan a QR code, even the smallest market stall/street food seller will do this. I'm guessing that hasn't caught on over here yet because of money laundering/banking regs, but not sure, maybe vested interests a factor too. If that does come in, the casual transaction (e.g buying something off FB marketplace) use of cash goes away. As does use in market stalls etc.

Again, not really a value judgment on whether we _should_ end up with the end of cash. But we've moved so quickly already... I think the tail will take a relatively long time, but there will come a point when the huge expense of maintaining the required infrastructure just won't be worth it.


----------



## NoXion (Aug 24, 2022)

Cid said:


> The card processing is an additional expense (and - in the recentish past - a not insignificant one). That has flipped - the default payment method for most of those businesses will be card.



So has the expense of card transactions actually gone down, or is the expense the same and is now simply justified by most people using cards?

Because it never made sense to me that accepting card transactions was so expensive, I get the strong impression that the companies providing card reader services are/were taking the absolute piss.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Aug 24, 2022)

There seems to be a few people on this thread saying they don’t have a smartphone - I’m genuinely curious as to why?


----------



## Cid (Aug 24, 2022)

NoXion said:


> So has the expense of card transactions actually gone down, or is the expense the same and is now simply justified by most people using cards?
> 
> Because it never made sense to me that accepting card transactions was so expensive, I get the strong impression that the companies providing card reader services are/were taking the absolute piss.



It's gone down a fair bit iirc, depends on volume, service etc. But the casual ones like Zettle seem to be on around 1.75%, and upfront costs are generally pretty low (less than £30), no monthly fees.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Aug 24, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> There seems to be a few people on this thread saying they don’t have a smartphone - I’m genuinely curious as to why?


I didn't personally feel the need for one until 2019. I think for me, I didn't like the assumption that you're always accessible and get moaned at for not immediately seeing an email.


----------



## SysOut (Aug 24, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> There seems to be a few people on this thread saying they don’t have a smartphone - I’m genuinely curious as to why?


Don't need one.
Getting the horrible feeling that govts. want to make them compulsory.
So, try not using them, friends.
Being free actually means having less.
Convenience is the most insidious of chains.


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 24, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> There seems to be a few people on this thread saying they don’t have a smartphone - I’m genuinely curious as to why?


I have a smartphone but don't use it as a 'full' smartphone if you get what I mean. Strictly no email or banking/transaction apps, no notifications from apps, no alternative messengers like Facebook messenger or WhatsApp. As a result my life runs a lot smoother and I have a better connection with both my immediate community, and the people who I would otherwise be in constant contact with. I also seem to be the victim of a lot less data leakage and disruptive tech issues. If I lose my phone that's also not particularly disruptive. And I probably have a smaller electric bill.


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 24, 2022)

I do wonder about the total carbon footprint of cashless interactions. Although I suspect plastic notes aren't exactly eco friendly either


----------



## DaphneM (Aug 24, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Up until a few years ago the record for the most cash withdrawn at ATMs in a day would be broken every December in the week leading up to Christmas. Presumably a chunk of that would be to put inside Christmas cards.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and then a chunk of that would be stolen by the Royal Mail...









						Angry residents demand answers from Royal Mail after money 'stolen' and cards go astray
					

FURIOUS residents are demanding answers after a number of people reported receiving mail which had apparently been tampered with.




					www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk
				




wouldn't happen if you transfer money using an app


----------



## hash tag (Aug 24, 2022)

There is a ritual of pinning bank notes to the bride and groom in some weddings. Bit difficult with cards.


----------



## Cid (Aug 24, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> I do wonder about the total carbon footprint of cashless interactions. Although I suspect plastic notes aren't exactly eco friendly either



There's a huge amount of infrastructure needed for cash. Storage in banks, transport between ATMs, actual ATMs, tills, collections/deposits, manufacture, sorting etc.


----------



## NoXion (Aug 24, 2022)

I expect coins would be the worst in terms of carbon emissions, they're pretty weighty


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 24, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I expect coins would be the worst in terms of carbon emissions, they're pretty weighty


Yes but they pretty much last forever so you would have to consider it over their lifetime


----------



## Chz (Aug 24, 2022)

Cid said:


> There's a huge amount of infrastructure needed for cash. Storage in banks, transport between ATMs, actual ATMs, tills, collections/deposits, manufacture, sorting etc.


A lot of the cash infrastructure used to just be the cost of doing business. Which is why electronic payments _appeared_ expensive next to it. It's only recently that businesses have been able to really get a look at everything that cash involves and see the real costs of everything. TfL saved £25M a *year* by going cashless on the buses.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 24, 2022)

Chz said:


> A lot of the cash infrastructure used to just be the cost of doing business. Which is why electronic payments _appeared_ expensive next to it. It's only recently that businesses have been able to really get a look at everything that cash involves and see the real costs of everything. TfL saved £25M a *year* by going cashless on the buses.


more pubs are going cashless , it saves a load of money not having to go to the bank with bags of cash - but is unfair on those that want to use cash. Also affects staff tips - none of that 'keep the change' , although i have noticed little tip machines appearing on bars


----------



## Winot (Aug 24, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> My kids are 11 and 7, and even they don’t want cash anymore, far easier to just transfer into their accounts so they can use contactless cards.


Ours went through a stage of asking for cash because it helped them save (harder to spend than money in an account).


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 24, 2022)

Chz said:


> A lot of the cash infrastructure used to just be the cost of doing business. Which is why electronic payments _appeared_ expensive next to it. It's only recently that businesses have been able to really get a look at everything that cash involves and see the real costs of everything. TfL saved £25M a *year* by going cashless on the buses.


Plus I imagine it's less work and hassle for the bus driver.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 24, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Plus I imagine it's less work and hassle for the bus driver.


And it isn't difficult to get an oyster card and charge it up so you can use it on London Transport - you don't need to use contactless on bus/tube/trains in London - I do because it is  convenient for me.


----------



## StakerOne (Aug 24, 2022)

hash tag said:


> We have never had a joint bank account. If you spend cash, there is no "paper trail" that can be checked by a partner regardless of it being a single or joint account.


I guess one sensible way of having a joint account, is to use it for all the bills, mortgage, council tax, internet etc, with beer money going to a private personal account.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Aug 24, 2022)

Winot said:


> Ours went through a stage of asking for cash because it helped them save (harder to spend than money in an account).


Mine are still going on the saving tactic of not spending anything and getting me to buy everything


----------



## NoXion (Aug 24, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Yes but they pretty much last forever so you would have to consider it over their lifetime


Coins don't have to be destroyed to be taken out of circulation. I bet there's loads just sitting around doing nothing, and those have to be replaced.


----------



## hash tag (Aug 24, 2022)

StakerOne said:


> I guess one sensible way of having a joint account, is to use it for all the bills, mortgage, council tax, internet etc, with beer money going to a private personal account.


Mrs Tag gets the majority of bills, I just get one or two smaller ones and beer/petrol 👍


----------



## 8ball (Aug 24, 2022)

oxygenthief said:


> This maybe normal, I don't know, I don't spend much time in the world.



Wonko doesn’t go into The Asylum.

Quite right, too.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 24, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> There seems to be a few people on this thread saying they don’t have a smartphone - I’m genuinely curious as to why?



Mate of mine says “smart phone; dumb head”.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 24, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Coins don't have to be destroyed to be taken out of circulation. I bet there's loads just sitting around doing nothing, and those have to be replaced.


I used to hoard loads but in my move to become a member of the cashless society I took them to the bank, currently I have a grand total of 7x£1 and 1x10p coins


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## weltweit (Aug 24, 2022)

We need cash. 

Some people still rely on it. 

It is a payment method that can't easily be tracked.


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## 8ball (Aug 24, 2022)

I had a right rigmarole trying to park at the hospital yesterday (or rather, trying to get out of the hospital car park), because I don’t have a contactless wotsit.


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## NoXion (Aug 24, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I used to hoard loads but in my move to become a member of the cashless society I took them to the bank, currently I have a grand total of 7x£1 and 1x10p coins


I'm also thinking of all those coins which have been tossed into wishing wells, rivers, dropped down drains, and so on. There must be a significant chunk of change in such places.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 24, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I'm also thinking of all those coins which have been tossed into wishing wells, rivers, dropped down drains, and so on. There must be a significant chunk of change in such places.


Something for people with metal detectors to find a thousand years from now.


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## Cid (Aug 24, 2022)

Apparently there are 29bn coins in circulation, and 338m minted last year. if we take the average weight as 8g that's 2,704 tonnes last year, with er... well roughly 100x that, call it 250,000 tonnes in circulation. Fair bit, but not wildly large amounts.

A £2 coin is 1.58cm3, there were 417m in circulation in 2014. Sooo... that's just 620ish cubic meters right? That's only 1/4 of an olympic swimming pool . Even accounting for inefficient stacking it's probably barely 1/2. Probably get there if you accept the £1s and 50ps.

Ahem, no idea why I did that. I think I was trying to work through what the impacts of coin production are, but got sidetracked.


----------



## SysOut (Aug 24, 2022)

Cash can be more valuable than its face value.
Quite a few coins were quietly removed from circulation because their metal content (e.g. silver) was worth more than their face value - e.g. some sixpences, florins and halfcrowns - and the silver dollar.
There's still speculation why the german 5mark piece was replaced - even a film ! 

But the real lottery win is when you find a coin or a note with a manufacturing defect, error, mistake or simply one that came out of a short restricted production run - they can be worth £££ !!
Don't forget that there are rich collectors.

So always check your change - with a magnifying glass... 

see Coin collecting - Wikipedia

_edited to add link to film_


----------



## Cid (Aug 24, 2022)

My debit card ways 5g... We could vaguely estimate maybe 1 per person per year (mine lasts 5 years, and we're throwing children in for possible cashless future) - 330 tonnes of plastic/year. Not great, but I would guess relatively efficient in terms of CO2 in manufacture, just obviously we don't really want the disposal aspect. Handling costs would be minimal. Also apparently 97% of adults have a bank account, so it's largely a thing that is already there (again, no reflection on those who don't, just thinking through more abstract things).


----------



## 8ball (Aug 24, 2022)

Also, robbing banks is going to be no fun at all without cash.


----------



## Cid (Aug 24, 2022)

8ball said:


> Also, robbing banks is going to be no fun at all without cash.



Don't fret too much, there'll still be the vaults and the jewellers.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 24, 2022)

Cid said:


> Don't fret too much, there'll still be the vaults and the jewellers.



Well, cash was a big part of the appeal of the vaults.  Filling up the sports bags, staggering out with the sports bags…


----------



## liquidindian (Aug 24, 2022)

marty21 said:


> And it isn't difficult to get an oyster card and charge it up so you can use it on London Transport


This is what I do, except it's a bank card and instead of transport it's everything.


----------



## SysOut (Aug 24, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> This is what I do, except it's a bank card and instead of transport it's everything.


Better to have a chip sown into the skin - save plastic and it can't get stolen.
Can add scanable/magnetic tattoos for extras such as public transport  etc.


----------



## liquidindian (Aug 24, 2022)

No.


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## xenon (Aug 24, 2022)

If you're worried about anonymity, and traceability, what are you doing on busses anyway. Paying with cash or otherwise... Oh I get it you wear a false moustache and limp.


----------



## l'Otters (Aug 25, 2022)

marty21 said:


> And it isn't difficult to get an oyster card and charge it up so you can use it on London Transport - you don't need to use contactless on bus/tube/trains in London - I do because it is  convenient for me.


You say that, but it’s probably easy enough if you live there and are used to the system. 

If you don’t manage to keep track of the Oyster card for visits it’s quite a sting. Last I checked it was going to cost me about £13 to get on the tube when I’d left my Oyster card somewhere. Assuming there’s a ticket office at the station to issue a new card to you.


----------



## SysOut (Aug 25, 2022)

xenon said:


> If you're worried about anonymity, and traceability, what are you doing on busses anyway. Paying with cash or otherwise... Oh I get it you wear a false moustache and limp.


Me? No. There's no anonymity from the state - if the state wants to know about you, it will. That's always been the case since the beginning of the 20th century.

More important though are things like your spending habits, though.

If you buy something from a store often, but you are the only customer, then it isn't probably worthwhile for the store to keep that item in stock.

How does it know whether it is 50 people buying that item each month or just five people buying it ten times a month?

Unfortunately, it happened to me - and others - when we discovered that we were the only ones to buy the item - we were complaining and somehow had complained at the same time. You realise that you and the others didn't fall into the category of major customers. IOW, if the store lost our custom, it wouldn't be a big deal.

Shelf space has to work, not just in earning its "rent", but also in the sense that it keeps big customers wanting to come again and not go elsewhere.

So I don't use customer cards, as well as for more obvious reasons such as not getting silly emails and all that crap - in over 3 decades I've realised I haven't got any advantage whatsoever from them - just nuisances and sillinesses.

Oh, yes, your point is about the UK being the most surveilled country in the world.

I think that's more about government helping the security business whose main concern will be guarding the wealthy and crowd control.

Nothing exciting or worth getting paranoid about.


----------



## wow (Aug 25, 2022)

weltweit said:


> We need cash.
> 
> Some people still rely on it.
> 
> It is a payment method that can't easily be tracked.


Tell me more about these people who rely on cash so they “can’t easily be tracked”. 

They sound like shifty fuckers to me.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Aug 25, 2022)

hash tag said:


> There is a ritual of pinning bank notes to the bride and groom in some weddings. Bit difficult with cards.


I was at a Tongan church the other day where they passed round the card reader


----------



## stdP (Aug 25, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> There seems to be a few people on this thread saying they don’t have a smartphone - I’m genuinely curious as to why?



I'm one of the not-smartphone people (although not sure if I've announced it here). Concerns about my fingers not working with touchscreens, and surveillance capitalism and the endless integration of behavioural tracking mechanics inherent in most smartphone apps aside, I burnt out massively on the whole "continually connected" thing back in the mid-2000's and have resisted further pushes towards it ever since. Many of my decade-younger colleagues are going through the same sort of quandaries I did where they're going mad getting called in to work 24 hours a day. I just don't look at my phone, and typically I just leave it at home when I'm not on call.

These days, if something is called upon to require a smartphone, or especially a social media network, I don't do it. I've yet to feel I've lost out on anything.

FWIW I'm also (as I think I've almost certainly said in this thread at least once already) a cash-preferring weirdo. I don't think I can be considered a luddite as my job requires me to have a fairly extensive knowledge of how all of this shit works; I just don't see how it benefits me to be a part of the cashless continually-connected "economy".


----------



## SysOut (Aug 25, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> I was at a Tongan church the other day where they passed round the card reader




Yes,we have that already.

But nothing improves by making cash obsolete.

It means the end of money; one has credits.

Independence has been traded for total dependence.

What back up arrangements for the case the card is lost, misused, account blocked for reasons, x,y,z - rightly or wrongly?

Total and complete dependence.

Once cash disappears, charges will re-appear and there is nothing one can do - they will be like a privately imposed transaction tax.

But one can't do anything. One is totally dependent.

Dependent on those whose prime concern is the well being of their shareholders.

It is an amusing situation to watch those who otherwise crow freedom and liberty willingly sink into total dependence on others with regard to the most important matter - that for which they have worked and schemed so hard - their money.

It is surreal.


----------



## SysOut (Aug 25, 2022)

wow said:


> Tell me more about these people who rely on cash so they “can’t easily be tracked”.
> 
> They sound like shifty fuckers to me.



Argentina orders banks to close
2012–2013 Cypriot financial crisis
So what can one do when the government closes the bank and restricts access to accounts ... and money no longer exists?

When that happens the dependency is total.


----------



## hash tag (Aug 25, 2022)

I know people that go out of their way to track down the very rare 50p pieces and collect them. Also, there are many of the plastic fivers which are worth a lot more than face valu
and are being traded.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 25, 2022)

hash tag said:


> I know people that go out of their way to track down the very rare 50p pieces and collect them. Also, there are many of the plastic fivers which are worth a lot more than face valu
> and are being traded.


I will trade five  50p pieces for your plastic fiver


----------



## kabbes (Aug 25, 2022)

marty21 said:


> I will trade five  50p pieces for your plastic fiver


Who’s paying the postage costs?


----------



## SysOut (Aug 25, 2022)

marty21 said:


> I will trade five  50p pieces for your plastic fiver


Five rare ones? purchaser would want more details....


----------



## NoXion (Aug 25, 2022)

SysOut said:


> Independence has been traded for total dependence.



You know that it's governments that issue cash, and therefore also have the power to render it worthless? I need money to live regardless of whether it's electronic or physical. The dependence exists regardless.



SysOut said:


> What back up arrangements for the case the card is lost, misused, account blocked for reasons, x,y,z - rightly or wrongly?



Pretty sure you can't withdraw cash either if your account is frozen. I'd wager that most people, even the majority of those who are most ardently pro-cash, keep most of their liquid assets in a bank account. That's why bank runs are a thing.



SysOut said:


> Once cash disappears, charges will re-appear and there is nothing one can do - they will be like a privately imposed transaction tax.



This shit already exists, regardless of whether you're paying with cash or card. They're called "service charges" and they're a regular thing in places like the US, where loads of people use cash anyway.


----------



## cesare (Aug 25, 2022)

It's still commonplace to keep lots of cash hidden "just in case".


----------



## SysOut (Aug 25, 2022)

NoXion said:


> You know that it's governments that issue cash, and therefore also have the power to render it worthless? I need money to live regardless of whether it's electronic or physical. The dependence exists regardless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Simple answer - you have cash at home - it's not some magnetic digits on a hard dsik on a server you know what where.

Cash machines break, run out of cash - that's why people carry around "enough" cash and have more at home - IOW you can and do have fall back arrangements with cash which are not possible with e-money because you do not "possess" e-money - its not physical.

Shrewth. It's the 101 of money since more than 3 millenium...

Governments do not issue cash - that is the state... in the UK we have the chief shareholder, the Monarch and Crown... did you see that photo of her checking out the gold reserves in the vaults of the BofE...  ?

but the government is the management of the state and they are nominally answerable to the voters, though in reality to the state.

Neither is anonymous - but share holders are - and they have zero liability - they and their company can even be foreign with no interest in the well being of the country or its people.


----------



## kabbes (Aug 25, 2022)

Mostly, it’s neither the government nor the state that issues cash. Almost all the money supply is actually created by (private sector) banks. At best, you can say that the state mints the physical tokens and is responsible for creating a small part of the money supply.


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## weltweit (Aug 25, 2022)

Right now I can't log into my bank. 

They say try later - hopefully then the runes might be in my favour .. 

In the meantime the transaction I wanted to do is not doable. 

As it happens I couldn't do that transaction in cash but I was recently in a shop and could have used cash there ..


----------



## DaphneM (Aug 25, 2022)

weltweit said:


> Right now I can't log into my bank.
> 
> They say try later - hopefully then the runes might be in my favour ..
> 
> ...


I have multiple accounts with different banks so if one goes down I have a backup


----------



## marty21 (Aug 25, 2022)

weltweit said:


> Right now I can't log into my bank.
> 
> They say try later - hopefully then the runes might be in my favour ..
> 
> ...


Can you call the bank ?


----------



## weltweit (Aug 25, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> I have multiple accounts with different banks so if one goes down I have a backup


Daphne you sound scarily organised  


marty21 said:


> Can you call the bank ?


No idea what their number is .. will probably come back in a bit. 

First outage in 5 years


----------



## hash tag (Aug 25, 2022)

cesare said:


> It's still commonplace to keep lots of cash hidden "just in case".


I suspect my in laws have lots of cash hidden about the place. It helps some people to claim benefits. 
Many places only accept donations in cash eg the chained library in wimborne minster


----------



## weltweit (Aug 25, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> I have multiple accounts with different banks so if one goes down I have a backup


I am curious though Daphne, how many times has one or other of your accounts been unavailable?


----------



## A380 (Aug 25, 2022)

Notes are traceable now. It always was, with serial numbers, but the work was so hard as not to be worth it. Now  scanners can check notes in milliseconds and it that data uploaded and cross matched in microseconds...

SysOut you'd better find another way...


----------



## Cid (Aug 25, 2022)

weltweit said:


> Right now I can't log into my bank.
> 
> They say try later - hopefully then the runes might be in my favour ..
> 
> ...



Yes, but your card would have worked in the shop. Banks don't shut down because the online bit is closed for maintenance or whatever.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 25, 2022)

weltweit said:


> Daphne you sound scarily organised
> 
> No idea what their number is .. will probably come back in a bit.
> 
> First outage in 5 years


It'll be on your debit card


----------



## A380 (Aug 25, 2022)

I went to the Bank of England Museum for the first time this week. They have a new exhibition on the links between the Bank and the Slave Trade.

If you are nearby I'd recommend the whole thing. It's free, ironically.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 25, 2022)

marty21 said:


> It'll be on your debt card


remarkable


----------



## DaphneM (Aug 25, 2022)

weltweit said:


> I am curious though Daphne, how many times has one or other of your accounts been unavailable?


Maybe once if that. I don’t have multiple accounts for that reason though.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 25, 2022)

weltweit said:


> remarkable


Have edited 🤣


----------



## weltweit (Aug 25, 2022)

marty21 said:


> Have edited 🤣


How?


----------



## weltweit (Aug 25, 2022)

The risk of cybertheft and the like has prevented me having a decent relationship with my bank. Every message they send me they caution about trusting anything online including messages like the one they just sent me. Consequently I don't trust anything and am probably missing out on services which I actually probably could do with. 

Here's a service - don't trust this!


----------



## Cid (Aug 25, 2022)

weltweit said:


> The risk of cybertheft and the like has prevented me having a decent relationship with my bank. Every message they send me they caution about trusting anything online including messages like the one they just sent me. Consequently I don't trust anything and am probably missing out on services which I actually probably could do with.
> 
> Here's a service - don't trust this!



What kind of messages are they sending you? Basically everything you do with your bank should be through app/website. And never click through links on phone messages/email.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 25, 2022)

Cid said:


> What kind of messages are they sending you? Basically everything you do with your bank should be through app/website. And never click through links on phone messages/email.


They do post messages within the app, but I am pretty sure I also get emails.


----------



## hash tag (Aug 25, 2022)

A local tourist sign this evening showing where to go for cash


----------



## Cid (Aug 25, 2022)

weltweit said:


> They do post messages within the app, but I am pretty sure I also get emails.



Mine sends me a newsletter and a notice that my statement is ready... Never read either (now that I check the statement one is just instructions how to view it). I suppose I may have opted out of other emails, but I'm guessing they'd all just say 'go to the website and do x'.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 25, 2022)

weltweit said:


> How?


Debt card to debit card


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 25, 2022)

I'm still pretty much cocooning. 
So most purchases/ food/ bills/ are paid online. 
Only the drs get cash.


----------



## oxygenthief (Aug 25, 2022)

8ball said:


> Wonko doesn’t go into The Asylum.
> 
> Quite right, too.


😁


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 25, 2022)

A380 said:


> I went to the Bank of England Museum for the first time this week. They have a new exhibition on the links between the Bank and the Slave Trade.
> 
> If you are nearby I'd recommend the whole thing. It's free, ironically.


I didn’t realise it had reopened, always been keen to visit


----------



## wow (Aug 25, 2022)

SysOut said:


> Argentina orders banks to close
> 2012–2013 Cypriot financial crisis
> So what can one do when the government closes the bank and restricts access to accounts ... and money no longer exists?
> 
> When that happens the dependency is total.


If that happens your “legal tender” will be worthless anyway.


----------



## SysOut (Aug 26, 2022)

wow said:


> If that happens your “legal tender” will be worthless anyway.


It continues to be worth every penny. That's the whole object of the exercise.


----------



## wow (Aug 26, 2022)

SysOut said:


> It continues to be worth every penny. That's the whole object of the exercise.


I assume you’re aware of the phrase, “not worth the paper it’s printed on”. 

That’s what cash will be if the banks collapse.


----------



## SysOut (Aug 26, 2022)

wow said:


> That’s what cash will be if the banks collapse.


No it isn't.



wow said:


> “not worth the paper it’s printed on”


refers to the currency - has nothing to do with "cash".

It applies to the currency of the money on your account.
You do know what "currency" is? E.g. USDollars, Euros. Yen etc. ????


----------



## wow (Aug 26, 2022)

SysOut said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> 
> refers to the currency - has nothing to do with "cash".
> ...


I know what currency is, and I know what cash is.

They’re totally separate things.

You’re the one who seems confused about the definitions.


----------



## SysOut (Aug 26, 2022)

wow said:


> I know what currency is, and I know what cash is.
> 
> They’re totally separate things.
> 
> You’re the one who seems confused about the definitions.


I wrote computer systems for this stuff.
Payment systems. Doh!

You're trolling. Bye.


----------



## wow (Aug 26, 2022)

SysOut said:


> I wrote computer systems for this stuff.
> Payment systems. Doh!
> 
> You're trolling. Bye.


I write (present tense) computer systems as a career.

Don’t try to bullshit me. 

The conversation is about cash. 

Cash means physical money. It doesn’t mean currency, no matter how much you want it to. 

If the BoE collapses, then all the pound coins you’ve got in a jar cease to be worth anything.


----------



## SysOut (Aug 26, 2022)

wow said:


> If the BoE collapses, then all the pound coins you’ve got in a jar cease to be worth anything.


As will also all digital forms of *STERLING*
Yes, it is the currency - so stop trolling.


----------



## wow (Aug 26, 2022)

SysOut said:


> As will also all digital forms of *STERLING*
> Yes, it is the currency - so stop trolling.


You seem to be trying to teach me things I’ve already demonstrated I understand better than you. 

You’re wrong, and putting things in *BOLD* only makes you look silly.

Go back to my first quote in this thread and figure out your mistakes.


----------



## hash tag (Aug 26, 2022)

I was at Tyneham earlier. This deserted village has a little solar lighting for an exhibition, no running water and a couple of portaloos for visitors. Internet signals; not a chance. Two mamils turned up wanting tea and cake from a food stall explaing that they didn't do cash anymore and complained bitterly at the cash only requirement 😄


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 26, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> There seems to be a few people on this thread saying they don’t have a smartphone - I’m genuinely curious as to why?



I mostly have one because it became too difficult to find a motorola K1 flip phone in working order.

Although probably my favourite ever phone was that blackberry that pause and skip buttons on the top edge so you could control your music without taking it out of your pocket. Typing is also easier on a blackberry than a smartphone, and they work better ergonomically as actual phones.


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 26, 2022)

Paid the local foshmonger in cash last week...
He said "oh you're paying me in real money ".


----------



## kabbes (Aug 27, 2022)

I always use real money when I buy my fosh.


----------



## liquidindian (Aug 27, 2022)

Aladdin said:


> real money


Clams for clams.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 27, 2022)

Three transactions this morning 2 contactless 1 cash.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 27, 2022)

weltweit said:


> Three transactions this morning 2 contactless 1 cash.


What was the cash one for?


----------



## weltweit (Aug 27, 2022)

moochedit said:


> What was the cash one for?


Small shop, 2 Magnums £4.40


----------



## hash tag (Aug 27, 2022)

There were a few power failures and no internet at the steam fair today so many traders had to say cash only and lost a lot of business as a result.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 27, 2022)

Indian takeaway  tonight, paid cash!


----------



## DaphneM (Aug 28, 2022)

hash tag said:


> There were a few power failures and no internet at the steam fair today so many traders had to say cash only and lost a lot of business as a result.


Was there no mobile reception?


----------



## moochedit (Aug 28, 2022)

I've withdrawn £180 in cash so far in 2022. Most recent cash withdrawal was £10 on July 14th (can't remember what that was for).


----------



## moochedit (Aug 28, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> Was there no mobile reception?


I was thinking that but to be fair mobile reception is dodgy in some parts of the country.


----------



## hash tag (Aug 28, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> Was there no mobile reception?


No mobile reception either at Tyneham (see above) or at the Great Dorset which is held a mile or two outside Blandford.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Aug 28, 2022)

moochedit said:


> I've withdrawn £180 in cash so far in 2022. Most recent cash withdrawal was £10 on July 14th (can't remember what that was for).


Inspired by this I've just checked and I've withdrawn $200 (about £100) in the last 4 years.


----------



## DaphneM (Aug 28, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> Inspired by this I've just checked and I've withdrawn $200 (about £100) in the last 4 years.


£20 six months ago.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 28, 2022)

moochedit said:


> I was thinking that but to be fair mobile reception is dodgy in some parts of the country.



Worst in Europe for mobile signal apparently. I could well believe it. There are entire towns around here where my phone is just a brick, never mind the countryside.


----------



## hash tag (Aug 28, 2022)

Had I not withdrawn £100 a few days ago, we would have struggled this weekend.


----------



## hash tag (Aug 29, 2022)




----------



## moochedit (Aug 29, 2022)

hash tag said:


> View attachment 340171


In other news the daily express says it will snow next week followed by a killer heat wave.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 29, 2022)

I can't conceivably imagine that the Mint is going to stop printing notes and minting coins in only 5 years.
What will happen and is happening now of course is that ATM's not to mention bank branches are going to get fewer and further between. 
People that want cash are going to have to travel to get hold of it or restrict themselves to living in big cities.


----------



## Sir Belchalot (Aug 29, 2022)

hash tag said:


> No mobile reception either at Tyneham (see above) or at the Great Dorset which is held a mile or two outside Blandford.


I used to get Welcome to France texts in some parts of Purbeck, at least the reception is a bit better there these days.


----------



## cesare (Aug 29, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I can't conceivably imagine that the Mint is going to stop printing notes and minting coins in only 5 years.
> What will happen and is happening now of course is that ATM's not to mention bank branches are going to get fewer and further between.
> People that want cash are going to have to travel to get hold of it or restrict themselves to living in big cities.


Or cashback from supermarkets.


----------



## Storm Fox (Aug 29, 2022)

hash tag said:


> No mobile reception either at Tyneham (see above) or at the Great Dorset which is held a mile or two outside Blandford.


At least one network used to put up a temporary Cell Tower at the GDSF. But I've not been there since 2016


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 29, 2022)

moochedit said:


> I've withdrawn £180 in cash so far in 2022. Most recent cash withdrawal was £10 on July 14th (can't remember what that was for).



I draw a couple of hundred, then give it bit by bit to Mrs Sas for stuff she has bought me.

Once a month at the Cricket Club Quiz I spend cash, but other than that cannot remember when last I spent actual money.


----------



## cesare (Aug 29, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> I draw a couple of hundred, then give it bit by bit to Mrs Sas for stuff she has bought me.
> 
> Once a month at the Cricket Club Quiz I spend cash, but other than that cannot remember when last I spent actual money.


Yep the cricket/football club we go to for quizzes etc is cash only too.


----------



## NoXion (Aug 29, 2022)

I've never had any issues with online transactions being blocked by my bank. I spend money online just like anyone else. How the hell do you trigger that kind of thing?


----------



## marty21 (Aug 29, 2022)

Still get about £100  a month out in cash , but the majority of my spending is contactless . Only big cash spend is to Lambros at my local garage,  cash for servicing the car , MOT & anything else that needs doing.


----------



## kabbes (Aug 29, 2022)

My cash withdrawals in their entirety in the last year:

15 January 2022 — £100
21 September 2021 — £60

Along with that, I’ve picked up a very small amount of cash for violin playing — I still get almost all gig money in cash. Can’t be more than a few hundred quid though in that time. 

That cash has covered two of us too — the kabbess never bothers getting any out herself, she just nicks mine.


----------



## A380 (Aug 29, 2022)

Took my coin jar to be sorted at a Coinstar thingy (10% and money well spent). It was £140 pounds over about four years. Can't imagine given how often I spend cash and get coins back it will be anywhere near this ever again...


----------



## weltweit (Aug 29, 2022)

A380 said:


> Took my coin jar to be sorted at a Coinstar thingy (10% and money well spent). It was £140 pounds over about four years. Can't imagine given how often I spend cash and get coins back it will be anywhere near this ever again...


How does it work? Does it process all the coins somehow?


----------



## DaphneM (Aug 29, 2022)

weltweit said:


> How does it work? Does it process all the coins somehow?


Yes, but then charges you a percentage


----------



## Sue (Aug 29, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I've never had any issues with online transactions being blocked by my bank. I spend money online just like anyone else. How the hell do you trigger that kind of thing?


Different banks have different algorithms set up to detect suspicious transactions. So a particular pattern of transactions, for example, can trigger it. (Obviously they keep the detail behind this kind of stuff secret.)


----------



## Dom Traynor (Aug 29, 2022)

kabbes said:


> My cash withdrawals in their entirety in the last year:
> 
> 15 January 2022 — £100
> 21 September 2021 — £60
> ...


Actually that's a good point re: partners. Mine is addicted to buying small plants and clippings from Facebook marketplace and she prefers to use cash for that although they all accept bank transfers.


----------



## kabbes (Aug 29, 2022)

Sue said:


> Different banks have different algorithms set up to detect suspicious transactions. So a particular pattern of transactions, for example, can trigger it. (Obviously they keep the detail behind this kind of stuff secret.)


I’ve just employed a data engineer who did this previously for banks.  I’m hoping he can employ a similar kind of mathematical wizardry to also find me some weird stuff in my own data.


----------



## Sue (Aug 29, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I’ve just employed a data engineer who did this previously for banks.  I’m hoping he can employ a similar kind of mathematical wizardry to also find me some weird stuff in my own data.


I used to work for a payments processing company. Found all that stuff really interesting. Folk I worked with could tell you in general terms the kinds of things/patterns that got flagged.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 29, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I've never had any issues with online transactions being blocked by my bank. I spend money online just like anyone else. How the hell do you trigger that kind of thing?


I have had automated calls from Barclays after using my card before checking if really me. Normally when buying from a non-uk website.

Not had one for a while but I get app alerts for all card payments on my phone now so i guess that has replaced it.


----------



## Chz (Aug 29, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> Yes, but then charges you a percentage


If you're the sort that regularly accumulates a lot of coins, Metro do it free for their customers. I hated working for them, but they are a good bank if there's one near you. 

Edit: I mean they have a dump all your money in a vat and it makes a lot of noise machine in _every_ branch. Any bank will take your change if you sort and roll it yourself.


----------



## A380 (Aug 29, 2022)

weltweit said:


> How does it work? Does it process all the coins somehow?



You put them on a kind of fish fryer thing and lose them into a slot. It counts them. It rejects any non uk coins - and the old pound coins. It’s remarkably quick and makes a fantastic noise!. Then you get a voucher and customer service gives you notes.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Aug 29, 2022)

A380 said:


> You put them on a kind of fish fryer thing and lose them into a slot. It counts them. It rejects any non uk coins - and the old pound coins. It’s remarkably quick and makes a fantastic noise!. Then you get a voucher and customer service gives you notes.


Yeah, but they charge you so you leave with less than you came in with. Go to NatWest, they do the same service for free.


----------



## A380 (Aug 29, 2022)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Yeah, but they charge you so you leave with less than you came in with. Go to NatWest, they do the same service for free.


I spent hours of my life counting out coins as the treasurer of not one but two PTA's (not learning from experience). It was £13 quid well spent and the noise it makes, which I imagine is engineered for that very purpose, was worth at least a fiver of that...


----------



## stdP (Aug 29, 2022)

I've been in at least two HSBC branches that had a "dump a bucket of change in here and we'll count and pay the balance straight in to your account" machine. Similar in sorting design to the ones in the supermarkets although without the rather outrageous 10% cut. Of course, schlepping ten kilos of loose change to your nearest branch with such a machine might not be an enviable experience.


----------



## Winot (Aug 30, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I’ve just employed a data engineer who did this previously for banks.  I’m hoping he can employ a similar kind of mathematical wizardry to also find me some weird stuff in my own data.


Urban75 ‘likes’?


----------



## NoXion (Aug 30, 2022)

Fuck those Coinstar machines. I'd rather grab a bunch of coin bags from my bank and count it all out for free. Ten percent is a serious pisstake considering that you can do that.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 30, 2022)

Better still, of course, is to try not to accumulate the coins in the first place!

Be more like the annoying frugal old git in front of you with the stout little plastic bag of coins who uses them to buy the pint of Ruddles in ‘spoons or feed into the few remaining M&S coin operated scab tills to pay for the yellow labels. Pound coins also good for occasional chassa-shop CD treats.


----------



## seeformiles (Aug 30, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> There seems to be a few people on this thread saying they don’t have a smartphone - I’m genuinely curious as to why?


I have a regular mobile that makes calls and nothing else. I don’t want a smartphone as it seems to encourage people to put all their eggs in one basket (banking, music, e-tickets, sat nav, games, etc.) which, apart from making people constantly fiddle with the damned things in all social situations and ignore what’s going around them, makes them a very attractive target for thieves as they now have very real value beyond just the phone itself. My biggest reason is that I’m a misanthropic bastard who still reads physical books, listens to vinyl, enjoys living in the moment without the need to document it all for someone else’s approval and am happy to decide when I want to interact with the rest of the world. The need to be connected all the time seems very unhealthy to me.


----------



## A380 (Aug 30, 2022)

seeformiles said:


> I have a regular mobile that makes calls and nothing else. I don’t want a smartphone as it seems to encourage people to put all their eggs in one basket (banking, music, e-tickets, sat nav, games, etc.) which, apart from making people constantly fiddle with the damned things in all social situations and ignore what’s going around them, makes them a very attractive target for thieves as they now have very real value beyond just the phone itself. My biggest reason is that I’m a misanthropic bastard who still reads physical books, listens to vinyl, enjoys living in the moment without the need to document it all for someone else’s approval and am happy to decide when I want to interact with the rest of the world. The need to be connected all the time seems very unhealthy to me.


You realise that the unwritten constitution of this place means that if you post something like this ^ someone is obliged to post:


----------



## seeformiles (Aug 30, 2022)

A380 said:


> You realise that the unwritten constitution of this place means that if you post something like this ^ someone is obliged to post:
> 
> View attachment 340317


I wouldn’t dream of messing with the natural order of things 🙂


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2022)

seeformiles said:


> I wouldn’t dream of messing with the natural order of things 🙂


quite right, don't dream of it, just do it


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Aug 30, 2022)

A380 said:


> You realise that the unwritten constitution of this place means that if you post something like this ^ someone is obliged to post:
> 
> View attachment 340317


I'm a youngish woman and agree with much of what seeformiles posted. Replace vinyl with CDs and I can see myself posting the same thing five years ago. Admittedly now I've got a smartphone I find it useful but I still refuse to get a Kindle as you can't beat a physical book.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Aug 30, 2022)

About 2 years after they were invented, when the discussion (on an internet forum) turned to Kindles, I said that I had never actually touched one. Well over a decade later, I can still make the same sad boast. I do have a smartphone though.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 30, 2022)

I don't normally have cash unless someone's given it to me and it lives in the wallet if its under £20 and I keep it if I really need it. 

Anyway was very glad this weekend I had some. Went to the Lake District and it was unsurprisingly very busy. The main car parks I would have used were full, but some enterprising farmers had thrown open fields. It would have been a much harder trip if I hadnt been able to pay!


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 30, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> About 2 years after they were invented, when the discussion (on an internet forum) turned to Kindles, I said that I had never actually touched one. Well over a decade later, I can still make the same sad boast. I do have a smartphone though.


We've had our Kindles for over ten years, best bits of kit that we ever bought.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 30, 2022)

A380 said:


> You realise that the unwritten constitution of this place means that if you post something like this ^ someone is obliged to post:
> 
> View attachment 340317


I have a smartphone, it lives on my desk for 99% of its life. I do have banking etc on it, which is handy if I'm away from home.

We are on giffgaff, six quid a month for unlimited calls and texts. Every month I get usage figures. my calls are generally to Mrs Sas, and as it is giffgaff to giffgaff, don't show, so my monthly usage is normally zero. Mrs Sas does about 600 minutes a month.


----------



## marty21 (Aug 30, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> We've had our Kindles for over ten years, best bits of kit that we ever bought.


I had a kindle, now I just use the Kindle App on my phone .


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Aug 30, 2022)

For about a week in July I was really ill with a bad cold and there was only so much sleep my stuffed up head would allow me. Reading was the only activity I had the energy to do while awake to pass the time, and a Kindle or other electronic method would have only made my headache worse, whereas I didn't have that problem with a paperback.


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 30, 2022)

As we are on the subject of kindles, I decided to swap mine out for a Kobo and definitely recommend them. You can get books from ebooks.com so you're not locked into their ecosystem as you are with Kindle/Amazon.


----------



## story (Aug 30, 2022)

These days when I use cash it feels quite unusual and exciting, like being on holiday.







I sometimes work in a small local retail shop. Brixton still has a cash economy so I handle a fair bit of cash in the shop when doing the till but it’s definitely far less than it was.


----------



## furluxor (Aug 30, 2022)

seeformiles said:


> I have a regular mobile that makes calls and nothing else. I don’t want a smartphone as it seems to encourage people to put all their eggs in one basket (banking, music, e-tickets, sat nav, games, etc.) which, apart from making people constantly fiddle with the damned things in all social situations and ignore what’s going around them, makes them a very attractive target for thieves as they now have very real value beyond just the phone itself. My biggest reason is that I’m a misanthropic bastard who still reads physical books, listens to vinyl, enjoys living in the moment without the need to document it all for someone else’s approval and am happy to decide when I want to interact with the rest of the world. The need to be connected all the time seems very unhealthy to me.



All of this 100%. I've never had a smartphone. Once my mother tried to gift me her old iPhone. It wanted my name and address and whatever else to run and when I faked it the phone locked down and told me to go to an Apple store. Yeah, right.
People think using a burner/dumbphone is a quaint sort of privation but I really don't feel any need for a smartphone. 1) It's got a weird vampyric effect on people that I don't like; 2) I'm a bit of a privacy nut; 3) I already struggle to pull myself away from my laptop so getting what is essentially a handheld computer just seems like a really dumb move;


----------



## seeformiles (Aug 30, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> We've had our Kindles for over ten years, best bits of kit that we ever bought.


I have a kindle for travel purposes but will read physical books at home. It’s great for long journeys when there’s no room for a library in my bag. It’s also been great for my mother who’s nearly blind with macular degeneration. She was devastated when she could no longer read regular books so it’s given her one of her great passions back.


----------



## hash tag (Aug 31, 2022)

I have had an email from the coop urging me to sign up to revolut " manage all your bank accounts in one app. " revolting, it sounds like a recipe to lose everything if you lost your phone.


----------



## liquidindian (Aug 31, 2022)

hash tag said:


> I have had an email from the coop urging me to sign up to revolut " manage all your bank accounts in one app. " revolting, it sounds like a recipe to lose everything if you lost your phone.











						Help Center
					

We are here to help you. Find all the answers to your questions about Revolut and get help from our support team.



					www.revolut.com


----------



## xenon (Aug 31, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> As we are on the subject of kindles, I decided to swap mine out for a Kobo and definitely recommend them. You can get books from ebooks.com so you're not locked into their ecosystem as you are with Kindle/Amazon.



I have bought books on my computer from other stores and emailed them to my kindle. You can create a specific email address on the Amazon site to do this. it will read EPUB, PDF et cetera.


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 31, 2022)

xenon said:


> I have bought books on my computer from other stores and emailed them to my kindle. You can create a specific email address on the Amazon site to do this. it will read EPUB, PDF et cetera.


Oh shit fair enough! Didn't know that.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 31, 2022)

xenon said:


> I have bought books on my computer from other stores and emailed them to my kindle. You can create a specific email address on the Amazon site to do this. it will read EPUB, PDF et cetera.



I have about 10Gb of books downloaded from the net.


----------



## liquidindian (Aug 31, 2022)

hash tag said:


> manage all your bank accounts in one app.


Also, I think you've misunderstood this a bit.  This isn't necessarily about putting all your eggs in one basket. 

Lots of banks have Open Banking APIs now, some were required to create these by law. An API is a way for two different applications to talk to each other. I can see the balance of my credit card in my banking app even though it's with a different bank, I just have to reauthorise it every 90 days. I still have my credit card app, and can access that credit card account in different ways, but I can see the balance and recent transactions in one app. It doesn't consolidate these accounts in any other way.

One interesting thing about these APIs is that they can be used to initiate payments as well. If I need to pay my credit card, I can do so by asking my credit card app to initiate a payment from my banking app. Some people are already predicting that this kind of API payment will mean _the end of card payments_. That may be a long way away, but might be worth taking seriously given card schemes are buying or trying to buy API companies:








						Visa will not acquire Plaid after running into regulatory wall – TechCrunch
					

Visa and Plaid called off their agreement this afternoon, ending the consumer credit giant’s takeover of the data-focused fintech API startup. The deal, valued at $5.3 billion at the time of its announcement, first broke cover on January 13, 2020, or nearly one year ago to the day. However, t…




					techcrunch.com
				











						Mastercard buys Aiia to augment open banking capabilities
					

Mastercard has completed the acquisition of open banking technology provider Aiia. It offers single API access to banks and fintech firms.




					www.retailbankerinternational.com


----------



## DaphneM (Aug 31, 2022)

hash tag said:


> I have had an email from the coop urging me to sign up to revolut " manage all your bank accounts in one app. " revolting, it sounds like a recipe to lose everything if you lost your phone.


they supply cards as well!


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 4, 2022)

I was able to skip three people in the supermarket queue today because they were waiting for a till that could accept cash. 

So yes please keep cash around.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> I was able to skip three people in the supermarket queue today because they were waiting for a till that could accept cash.
> 
> So yes please keep cash around.


Scab tills 🤔


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 5, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Scab tills 🤔


That might be a funny joke to you but I can't say I appreciate the comparison.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 5, 2022)

This is definitely going to be on my mind when I take a scab taxi ride [a walk] later, and probably also when I'm watching a scab tv show [reading a book] this evening.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> That might be a funny joke to you but I can't say I appreciate the comparison.


It's no joke. Im a bit of a luddite and refuse to use scab tills for fear they are doing staff out of jobs.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 5, 2022)

hash tag said:


> It's no joke. Im a bit of a luddite and refuse to use scab tills for fear they are doing staff out of jobs.


I'm not driving the goods to the store, I'm not accepting delivery of these goods into the stockroom, I'm not putting them on shelves, I'm not checking the prices on the shelves, I'm not checking anything is out of date, I'm not cleaning the store, I'm not doing any of the maintenance to keep a shop running, I'm not managing rotas or training or doing payroll or any other task that I've forgotten to list here. I'm just scanning a few items on my phone, the way I tend to shop, rather than lading up a massive trolley every few weeks. So you can piss off with your comparison to a scab, thanks.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 5, 2022)

It's the tills that are scabs in case it had escaped your notice.


----------



## DaphneM (Sep 5, 2022)

hash tag said:


> It's the tills that are scabs in case it had escaped your notice.


but surely used by scab customers?


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 5, 2022)

Not really a term to throw around lightly just because you think things went wrong when they opened the first Piggly Wiggly.


----------



## l'Otters (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> I'm not driving the goods to the store, I'm not accepting delivery of these goods into the stockroom, I'm not putting them on shelves, I'm not checking the prices on the shelves, I'm not checking anything is out of date, I'm not cleaning the store, I'm not doing any of the maintenance to keep a shop running, I'm not managing rotas or training or doing payroll or any other task that I've forgotten to list here. I'm just scanning a few items on my phone, the way I tend to shop, rather than lading up a massive trolley every few weeks. So you can piss off with your comparison to a scab, thanks.


You’re missing the point by miles. 

All those jobs you listed, but missed out the one where someone employed by the store scans them and takes your payment at the till. 

Does that job ring any bells?


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 5, 2022)

l'Otters said:


> You’re missing the point by miles.


No point missed at all. I get it if you've never worked in retail, but there's more to it than the person who rings up your shopping.

Shopping habits have changed for many. A couple of "10 items or less" queues aren't going to cut it when most customers are only picking up a few things. The BBC has a "end of the weekly shop" article from 2014, this isn't a new phenomenon!


----------



## l'Otters (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> No point missed at all. I get it if you've never worked in retail, but there's more to it than the person who rings up your shopping.
> 
> Shopping habits have changed for many. A couple of "10 items or less" queues aren't going to cut it when most customers are only picking up a few things. The BBC has a "end of the weekly shop" article from 2014, this isn't a new phenomenon!


Show me where I said that the only job which counts in retail is on the till?

And dial back your assumptions about where I’ve worked.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> if


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## hash tag (Sep 5, 2022)

If you are happy using these tills, that's your conscience you have to live with. There are many more things I have my own quiet little boycott of like companies who abuse their employees but many more people even on here use them but hey  it's a free country.


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## marty21 (Sep 5, 2022)

I prefer waiting for a staff managed till- prefer this to the scab tills.


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## souljacker (Sep 5, 2022)

marty21 said:


> I prefer waiting for a staff managed till- prefer this to the scab tills.


Definitely and not just because of their scabby nature. I need booze which needs a person to authorise plus I always get 'unidentified item in the bagging area' issues which needs a person. I'd rather queue than faff about with all that shite.


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## liquidindian (Sep 5, 2022)

hash tag said:


> If you are happy using these tills, that's your conscience you have to live with.


Shopping anywhere for anything is a ethical nightmare. Making this your hill to die on makes about as much sense to me as getting upset when they close a couple of tills because the lunchtime rush is over.

Use whatever till you want. Just don't mistake it for activism or some kind of moral choice.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 5, 2022)

I like the ones in Asda where you just scan as you go round. I'm looking forward to the day i just walk out the store with my packed trolley and my phone just sorts the payment. :l


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## liquidindian (Sep 5, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> the day i just walk out the store with my packed trolley and my phone just sorts the payment.


Amazon has its Fresh store but I've never been. Amazon Fresh till-less grocery store opens in London
Word of mouth is that it's not that popular, though.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Amazon has its Fresh store but I've never been. Amazon Fresh till-less grocery store opens in London
> Word of mouth is that it's not that popular, though.



I've heard of them, but didn't realise they'd come to the UK. Probably to expensive for my shopping habits.


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## hash tag (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Amazon has its Fresh store but I've never been. Amazon Fresh till-less grocery store opens in London
> Word of mouth is that it's not that popular, though.


The lowest of the low.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 5, 2022)

hash tag said:


> The lowest of the low.



Those spaceships won't fund themselves.


----------



## strung out (Sep 5, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Those spaceships won't fund themselves.


Nor those Tolkien adaptations.


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## liquidindian (Sep 5, 2022)

I don't shop with them or watch their TV stuff (legally) but good luck avoiding them.








						How Amazon Quietly Powers The Internet
					

Amazon is running an “operating system” that powers some of today’s most important technologies such as virtual reality, machine learning, and even quantum computing.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> I don't shop with them or watch their TV stuff (legally) but good luck avoiding them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well yes. They're huge cloud provider with a gift shop on the side.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> I don't shop with them or watch their TV stuff (legally) but good luck avoiding them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im still stuck in the dark ages; I do not use VR, AR,AI (to my knowledge, directly), or Netflix or IMDB come to that


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 5, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Im still stuck in the dark ages; I do not use VR, AR,AI (to my knowledge, directly), or Netflix or IMDB come to that



I guarantee you that a lot of anything you do on the net passes through AWS.

Lazy Llama. Does urban use it for anything?


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## Sue (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> I'm not driving the goods to the store, I'm not accepting delivery of these goods into the stockroom, I'm not putting them on shelves, I'm not checking the prices on the shelves, I'm not checking anything is out of date, I'm not cleaning the store, I'm not doing any of the maintenance to keep a shop running, I'm not managing rotas or training or doing payroll or any other task that I've forgotten to list here.



What's your point, caller? Presumably you don't do any of those things because you don't work there. There's absolutely LOADS of stuff I don't do in places where I don't work. 



liquidindian said:


> I'm just scanning a few items on my phone, the way I tend to shop, rather than lading up a massive trolley every few weeks. So you can piss off with your comparison to a scab, thanks.


So you're doing work (other people were previously paid to do) for nothing? That's what I call progress.


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## liquidindian (Sep 5, 2022)

Sue said:


> What's your point, caller?


There is more to working in a shop than the roles that directly serve the customer, and my experience in working in retail tells me that people often forget that. "It's busy, why don't you open another till?" Because everyone's busy doing other stuff.




Sue said:


> So you're doing work (other people were previously paid to do) for nothing?


Every time you walk into a shop and pick something up off the shelf, you do exactly this.


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## mentalchik (Sep 5, 2022)

As i've said many times boycotting "scab tills" isn't going to do anything....certainly not going to save jobs as that horse has bolted long ago....in a few years time it will be all self scanning ( I work in a supermarket by the way...on services)


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## Lazy Llama (Sep 5, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> I guarantee you that a lot of anything you do on the net passes through AWS.
> 
> Lazy Llama. Does urban use it for anything?


Not that I can think of, directly. 
I have toyed with the idea of looking at what we could use but the cost would probably be prohibitive for the things we’d use. Architecturally it would be more elegant and resilient. But you pay for that flexibility. 
Our relatively simple needs work out cheaper on a dedicated host.


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## Sue (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> There is more to working in a shop than the roles that directly serve the customer, and my experience in working in retail tells me that people often forget that. "It's busy, why don't you open another till?" Because everyone's busy doing other stuff.


Or because they don't employ enough people these days or they don't have enough people trained on tills. 🤷‍♀️ 

(I too used to work in retail, including on a supermarket checkout as it happens. I am one of those people who asks why they don't open another till because they seem to manage that okay in stores where there are alternative supermarkets nearby. Losing custom because they don't have enough/the right staff on is the only thing likely to focus their minds.)


liquidindian said:


> Every time you walk into a shop and pick something up off the shelf, you do exactly this.


True. Should bring back old-fashioned grocers style shopping.


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## mentalchik (Sep 5, 2022)

Sue said:


> Or because they don't employ enough people these days or they don't have enough people trained on tills. 🤷‍♀️


Spot on...it certainly not hurting our business though, we are crazy busy at the mo !


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## hash tag (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> There is more to working in a shop than the roles that directly serve the customer, and my experience in working in retail tells me that people often forget that. "It's busy, why don't you open another till?" Because everyone's busy doing other stuff.


Would this be because they have laid staff off and run on bare minimum staffing levels because of the automated tills.


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## marty21 (Sep 5, 2022)

Sue said:


> Or because they don't employ enough people these days or they don't have enough people trained on tills. 🤷‍♀️
> 
> (I too used to work in retail, including on a supermarket checkout as it happens. I am one of those people who asks why they don't open another till because they seem to manage that okay in stores where there are alternative supermarkets nearby. Losing custom because they don't have enough/the right staff on is the only thing likely to focus their minds.)
> 
> True. Should bring back old-fashioned grocers style shopping.


I get my groceries every week from an old fashioned grocery , (albeit run by Turkish folk) We get what we need & pay at a till (by card tbh) I love going there.


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## weltweit (Sep 5, 2022)

There are no scab tills in my local village shop. 

And things aren't so expensive there. 

Scab tills in the local Morrisons though and sometimes I use them rather than join a massive queue ..


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## liquidindian (Sep 5, 2022)

hash tag said:


> bare minimum staffing levels


That's just retail, unless it's changed in 20 years. Nothing to do with the type of tills.


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## 8ball (Sep 5, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> That's just retail, unless it's changed in 20 years. Nothing to do with the type of tills.



The more tight and efficient the retail industry is, the more labour resource gets freed up to be used in other valuable positions.

Like TikTok influencers.


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## l'Otters (Sep 5, 2022)

Been mentioned enough times on this thread already but I’ll say it again (since some people clearly don’t get it or don’t give a fuck or are too busy feeling personally attacked to consider anyones needs which differ from their own…):

There’s a raft of people for whom using cash and using staffed tills in shops is an access issue. People who are in this position are often marginalised already.


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## liquidindian (Sep 5, 2022)

l'Otters said:


> some people clearly don’t get it


I get it.


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## hash tag (Sep 6, 2022)

Clearly there is still a need for cash More ‘banking hubs’ to open across UK to tackle branch and ATM closures


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## liquidindian (Sep 6, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Clearly there is still a need for cash More ‘banking hubs’ to open across UK to tackle branch and ATM closures


I feel like this is treating the symptoms but not the problem. We're now at around 15% of payments being in cash according to UK Finance.

So surely now we're in a cycle where fewer businesses are going to take cash, because fewer people are using cash, because fewer businesses are taking cash etc. The same report says 6% of payments will be cash by 2031. The need is going to dwindle until those who rely on it will be completely shut out. I can't see making cash payments a mandatory option being popular with many smaller new businesses. We're going to need another solution.


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## hash tag (Sep 6, 2022)

I had to scrape and scrounge for a pound coin in the supermarket today to get a trolley.


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## moochedit (Sep 6, 2022)

hash tag said:


> I had to scrape and scrounge for a pound coin in the supermarket today to get a trolley.











						2 x Supermarket Shopping Trolley Tokens Pound Coin Locker On Key Ring  | eBay
					

Handy Trolley Or Locker Tokens. Design on one side - trolley logo on the rear. Lobster Claw Catch To Hold Token.



					www.ebay.co.uk


----------



## hash tag (Sep 6, 2022)

moochedit said:


> 2 x Supermarket Shopping Trolley Tokens Pound Coin Locker On Key Ring  | eBay
> 
> 
> Handy Trolley Or Locker Tokens. Design on one side - trolley logo on the rear. Lobster Claw Catch To Hold Token.
> ...


I have to spend money, to buy one of those things to clutter up a key ring and enable me to shop 😮 I don't think so.


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## liquidindian (Sep 6, 2022)

Scab coins 🤔


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## DaphneM (Sep 6, 2022)

hash tag said:


> I have to spend money, to buy one of those things to clutter up a key ring and enable me to shop 😮 I don't think so.


probably better than having to scrounge a quid tho?


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## moochedit (Sep 6, 2022)

hash tag said:


> I have to spend money, to buy one of those things to clutter up a key ring and enable me to shop 😮 I don't think so.



Only 50p from lidl. Vending machine is by the trolleys. You just need your contactless card.... oh yeah ... 









						Trolley token machine
					






					www.lidl.co.uk


----------



## moochedit (Sep 6, 2022)

Course joking aside, would be better if they didn't have the coin things on trolleys (as already happens in the posher areas)


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## hash tag (Sep 6, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Only 50p from lidl. Vending machine is by the trolleys. You just need your contactless card.... oh yeah ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Still need cash though. 


moochedit said:


> Course joking aside, would be better if they didn't have the coin things on trolleys (as already happens in the posher areas)


Posher area? This was Balham, SW12 I'll have you know...tips his nose


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 6, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Course joking aside, would be better if they didn't have the coin things on trolleys (as already happens in the posher areas)



It's weird how they decide which areas have to pay and which don't. It's broadly nicer areas, but it's not a certain. My local Asda doesn't and Tameside doesn't have a reputation for 4x4s and Hunters. The Aldi does though and I get caught out as I often have my phone, but no wallet when I got shopping.


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## muscovyduck (Sep 6, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> It's weird how they decide which areas have to pay and which don't. It's broadly nicer areas, but it's not a certain. My local Asda doesn't and Tameside doesn't have a reputation for 4x4s and Hunters. The Aldi does though and I get caught out as I often have my phone, but no wallet when I got shopping.


I wonder if it's internal store management who decide or regional/upper management


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## moochedit (Sep 6, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> It's weird how they decide which areas have to pay and which don't. It's broadly nicer areas, but it's not a certain. My local Asda doesn't and Tameside doesn't have a reputation for 4x4s and Hunters. The Aldi does though and I get caught out as I often have my phone, but no wallet when I got shopping.


Yeah same near me. Some do and some don't.


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## weltweit (Sep 6, 2022)

I have £55.00 and shrapnel in my wallet atm .. 

It has been there for some time


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 6, 2022)

weltweit said:


> I have £55.00 and shrapnel in my wallet atm ..
> 
> It has been there for some time



Pub?


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## cesare (Sep 6, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> It's weird how they decide which areas have to pay and which don't. It's broadly nicer areas, but it's not a certain. My local Asda doesn't and Tameside doesn't have a reputation for 4x4s and Hunters. The Aldi does though and I get caught out as I often have my phone, but no wallet when I got shopping.


I suspect nearby waterways are a factor. Also those "jam the trolley wheels boundaries".


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## nottsgirl (Sep 6, 2022)

We’re supposed to have a point where the trolleys get jammed but it doesn’t work as can be seen from the frequency of trolleys appearing outside the flats where I live.


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## weltweit (Sep 6, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Pub?


Far too expensive ..


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## marty21 (Sep 6, 2022)

I get the convenience of card payments, of phone payments, watch payments, and there are probably folk who have digital chips surgically implanted & do a wanker sign over the reader to pay for a can of coke .

But I don't get the evangelism of digital payers , preaching to us about how wonderful it all is.


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## Raheem (Sep 6, 2022)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> It's weird how they decide which areas have to pay and which don't. It's broadly nicer areas, but it's not a certain. My local Asda doesn't and Tameside doesn't have a reputation for 4x4s and Hunters. The Aldi does though and I get caught out as I often have my phone, but no wallet when I got shopping.


Ashton Asda has techno trolleys. If you try to take them off the premises, the wheels lock up.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 6, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Ashton Asda has techno trolleys. If you try to take them off the premises, the wheels lock up.



That's the one! I've never actually tried taking one of the premises so I've never noticed!


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## liquidindian (Sep 6, 2022)

marty21 said:


> But I don't get the evangelism of digital payers , preaching to us about how wonderful it all is.


There's way more evangelism by the cash hipsters in this thread, I'd say.

Cashless doesn't really need evangelising, we're past the tipping point where it's the default. But some have asked what's so great about this new-fangled* technology anyway, and others have answered. 

(*decade+ old)


----------



## scifisam (Sep 6, 2022)

LeytonCatLady said:


> For about a week in July I was really ill with a bad cold and there was only so much sleep my stuffed up head would allow me. Reading was the only activity I had the energy to do while awake to pass the time, and a Kindle or other electronic method would have only made my headache worse, whereas I didn't have that problem with a paperback.



Proper Kindle e-readers don't have the backlighting problem that causes headaches. And you can increase the font sixe, which can help a lot.


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## DaphneM (Sep 7, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> There's way more evangelism by the cash hipsters in this thread, I'd say.
> 
> Cashless doesn't really need evangelising, we're past the tipping point where it's the default. But some have asked what's so great about this new-fangled* technology anyway, and others have answered.
> 
> (*decade+ old)



haha, cash hipsters


----------



## LDC (Sep 7, 2022)

One massive advantage of cashless is for traveling tbh. Going through bunch of countries now, no fucking about changing money, getting stuck without cash, banks being closed, hunting for cash machines, etc. So much less hassle.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 7, 2022)

LDC said:


> One massive advantage of cashless is for traveling tbh. Going through bunch of countries now, no fucking about changing money, getting stuck without cash, banks being closed, hunting for cash machines, etc. So much less hassle.



I did a work trip through Holland and Belgium a few years ago. After some hours driving I realised I had left my wallet. Was able to use my phone everywhere, except one hotel bar.

Was suprised in Turkey this year how I could use it for almost everything. People most reluctant to take card were selling tourist stuff. In fact ATMs charged, so did most of the trip not using cash.


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## moochedit (Sep 7, 2022)

LDC said:


> One massive advantage of cashless is for traveling tbh. Going through bunch of countries now, no fucking about changing money, getting stuck without cash, banks being closed, hunting for cash machines, etc. So much less hassle.


Aren't the exchange rates high when you use a card abroad?

Even though i'm about 95% card payments in the uk, i normally use cash in other countries. I'm a bit paranoid about the card not working abroad so tend to get foreign cash before i go.


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## hash tag (Sep 7, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Aren't the exchange rates high when you use a card abroad?
> 
> Even though i'm about 95% card payments in the uk, i normally use cash in other countries. I'm a bit paranoid about the card not working abroad so tend to get foreign cash before i go.


A colleague who has just gone to Spain for a few days has taken a load of Euro's with her.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 7, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Aren't the exchange rates high when you use a card abroad?


I was curious about this. 

The two cards I have offer the Mastercard rate with zero fees, as long as you select "local currency" if given the choice.
Paying 100 Euros today would cost me £86.27.

I don't know if the Post Office offers particularly great rates or not. You have to buy a minimum of £400, at least online but:
Buying 100 Euros today would cost me £89.42

I haven't looked around for special deals or anything, so I reckon you could find a better deal and maybe get them a bit closer.

The "local currency" is vital, btw, if you don't select that on the PoS or ATM then you'll get stung by an awful rate: Choosing between local currency or home currency when using your cards abroad - The Points Guy

Also I checked another card issuer and they have a 2.75% foreign exchange fee.

So the answer is a definite: it depends.


----------



## Chz (Sep 7, 2022)

Halifax Clarity has always been cheaper for me than changing money ahead of time. Just have to remember to pay the balance quickly if you make a cash withdrawal, because the interest starts the moment the cash is in hand. But for normal holiday uses paying it off at the end of the week costs 10p or somesuch.


----------



## LDC (Sep 7, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Aren't the exchange rates high when you use a card abroad?
> 
> Even though i'm about 95% card payments in the uk, i normally use cash in other countries. I'm a bit paranoid about the card not working abroad so tend to get foreign cash before i go.



No, if anything for me they seem less than the rates used to pay changing money in exchanges. Plus you don't have to look for somewhere, then go and do it etc etc.

Some places are still much more cash orientated, I was in Berlin a few months ago and loads of places (mostly bars and cafes) didn't take cards.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 7, 2022)

Chz said:


> Halifax Clarity has always been cheaper for me than changing money ahead of time. Just have to remember to pay the balance quickly if you make a cash withdrawal, because the interest starts the moment the cash is in hand. But for normal holiday uses paying it off at the end of the week costs 10p or somesuch.


That's one of the cards. Don't you also get stung by a cash advance fee this way though?


----------



## moochedit (Sep 7, 2022)

LDC said:


> No, if anything for me they seem less than the rates used to pay changing money in exchanges. Plus you don't have to look for somewhere, then go and do it etc etc.
> 
> Some places are still much more cash orientated, I was in Berlin a few months ago and loads of places (mostly bars and cafes) didn't take cards.


Yeah that was my experience in Munich. I have read that Germans use cards less than the UK though. I think Scandinevia uses cards the most in Europe.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 7, 2022)

When I went passed Lidl earlier I saw they had self service only tills open, there were no cashier tills open. I'm just back from a quick top up in another supermarket. I see they don't have basket only tills anymore. Whilst queuing with my half a dozen bits for a cashier, I noticed 3 separate older people  and they all paid in cash. The person in front of me had a bill of nearly £85 as well. The elderly do not appear to like the self service tills.


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## Chz (Sep 7, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> That's one of the cards. Don't you also get stung by a cash advance fee this way though?


Nope. No cash advance fees on mine. It's the main reason I got it, to be honest. That being said, Halifax has sold "Clarity" cards with a dozen different fine prints attached. So not so clear after all.
Edit: MSE currently says for Halifax Clarity - "- No fees on spending or ATM withdrawals overseas"


----------



## Winot (Sep 7, 2022)

This is a good guide to the cheapest way of spending abroad. One of my debit cards is good (Monzo) the other (HSBC) is average so I used Monzo when in US recently. Cash worse. 



			https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/travel-credit-cards/


----------



## Sue (Sep 7, 2022)

Chz said:


> Nope. No cash advance fees on mine. It's the main reason I got it, to be honest. That being said, Halifax has sold "Clarity" cards with a dozen different fine prints attached. So not so clear after all.
> Edit: MSE currently says for Halifax Clarity - "- No fees on spending or ATM withdrawals overseas"


I've this card too and find it super helpful. I'm actually off to Europe in a couple of days and I've about 35 euros in cash which will do for getting the bus from the airport etc when I arrive in case they don't take cards. (Always useful having some small notes etc on arrival.)

I'm off to Germany next month and I imagine I'll be using cash more there as they're really not that into the card thing.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 7, 2022)

Ingenico makes card terminals and the technology that makes them work so they're not the most unbiased source, however: Contactless 2021: Germany’s journey from cash country to contactless trailblazer


----------



## Manter (Sep 7, 2022)

LDC said:


> No, if anything for me they seem less than the rates used to pay changing money in exchanges. Plus you don't have to look for somewhere, then go and do it etc etc.
> 
> Some places are still much more cash orientated, I was in Berlin a few months ago and loads of places (mostly bars and cafes) didn't take cards.


They all do, they just claim not to


----------



## Manter (Sep 7, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Yeah that was my experience in Munich. I have read that Germans use cards less than the UK though. I think Scandinevia uses cards the most in Europe.


They do. I live in Denmark and I haven‘t seen or touched cash in a year. Sweden and Norway vie for the lowest number of cash machines per capita in the world. But they have tech that enables that- single digital ID, and apps like Mobilpay and swish


----------



## Sue (Sep 7, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Ingenico makes card terminals and the technology that makes them work so they're not the most unbiased source, however: Contactless 2021: Germany’s journey from cash country to contactless trailblazer


My company's headquarters are in Germany and colleagues who've moved there from other European countries are always moaning about how cash-based stuff is...


----------



## seeformiles (Sep 8, 2022)

weltweit said:


> I have £55.00 and shrapnel in my wallet atm ..
> 
> It has been there for some time


I’ve checked my pockets and found £225 in notes and 41p - this is after a weekend’s gigging where cash is definitely still king. It’ll go into household funds for anything requiring cash - Mrs SFM’s hairdresser is cash only as is our favourite local curry house and the plumber I’m going to have to call after our boiler packed up this morning. I predict my pockets will soon be empty once more 🙁


----------



## ouirdeaux (Sep 8, 2022)

How are people supposed to buy their illegal substances in a cashless society? Not everyone is keen on venturing into the dark web lottery and paying in Bitcoin.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 8, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> How are people supposed to buy their illegal substances in a cashless society? Not everyone is keen on venturing into the dark web lottery and paying in Bitcoin


Perhaps you should bring this up with your MP


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 8, 2022)

Technically a legal substance, but I had to withdraw cash for a dispensary in Chicago because you can't use credit and my debit card registered as a credit card.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 8, 2022)

Tills can't be scabs because they're not people. It's clearly an emotive twisting of language designed to pull on the "I'm not a scab" string.

Also, aren't scabs supposed to get paid? Unless they've introduced discounts for people who self-serve, then nobody is getting paid for this shit except the bosses. You know, the ones who deserve the ire, not customers.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 8, 2022)

TBH if the 'scab till' stuff achieves anything I'd suspect it's more of a lessening of the impact of the term than anything else.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 8, 2022)

If you want to feel good about yourself there are better ways than deciding your checkout method is morally correct.


----------



## moochedit (Sep 8, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Technically a legal substance, but I had to withdraw cash for a dispensary in Chicago because you can't use credit and my debit card registered as a credit card.


Yeah i couldn't get my debit card to work in usa or australia (and i did have the funds). Credit card was ok. Both were visa. Was about 10 years ago though to be fair.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Sep 8, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Tills can't be scabs because they're not people.



Well, there are metaphors. But this one doesn't work for me because scabs are people who are brought in when workers go on strike. I don't know of any supermarkets where workers are currently striking.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 8, 2022)

All your cash is useless now, with the old monarch on it. Instantly obsolete. It's the law look it up.


----------



## moochedit (Sep 8, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> All your cash is useless now, with the old monarch on it. Instantly obsolete. It's the law look it up.


Yep send it to me and i will recycle it for you.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 8, 2022)

You can send it with an old stamp but you have to sellotape a picture of Charles cut out from a newspaper over the top.


----------



## marty21 (Sep 8, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> All your cash is useless now, with the old monarch on it. Instantly obsolete. It's the law look it up.


Thank the Lord I paid for my lunch with one of those now useless tenners


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 10, 2022)

Saw this on my morning walk the other day.


----------



## marty21 (Sep 10, 2022)

This guy knows what's going on 🤔😁


----------



## DaphneM (Sep 10, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Saw this on my morning walk the other day.
> 
> View attachment 342000


that's funny, because one of reasons i don't like having cash is because i do lose it.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 12, 2022)

Im off on a long steam train trip next Sunday. Ive just checked if cash only or cards as well for drinks etc. on train. Ive been told cards only, which I guess is fine
provided there is a good internet connection all the way for the card machine but suspect this will not be the case.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Sep 12, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Im off on a long steam train trip next Sunday. Ive just checked if cash only or cards as well for drinks etc. on train. Ive been told cards only, which I guess is fine
> provided there is a good internet connection all the way for the card machine but suspect this will not be the case.


I'd take your own drink just in case.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 12, 2022)

My sister and brother-in-law arrived here with a small armoury of cashless payment devices; phones, fitbits , apple watches, etc., to find that loads of cafes here only accept cash. I love it.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 12, 2022)

They wear fitbits and apple watches? Seems excessive.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 12, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> They wear fitbits and apple watches? Seems excessive.


Gadget friendly family I'm afraid


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 12, 2022)

I know people who research and analyse the gadget and wearables market and I've never even seen them wear multiple watches.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 12, 2022)

I see "cash only" as "we don't want your business". They make their choice and I make mine.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Sep 12, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> I see "cash only" as "we don't want your business". They make their choice and I make mine.


I feel the same when I see "cards only". Freedom of choice innit.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 12, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> I know people who research and analyse the gadget and wearables market and I've never even seen them wear multiple watches.


Must be mixing with the wrong people


----------



## marty21 (Sep 12, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> I see "cash only" as "we don't want your business". They make their choice and I make mine.


I don't mind if it's cash only , I'll get cash.


----------



## geminisnake (Sep 12, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> All your cash is useless now, with the old monarch on it. Instantly obsolete. It's the law look it up.


 None of the Scottish notes I have have Betty on them  Clydesdale, BoS and RBoS, it's just your peely wally English notes that need changed


----------



## weltweit (Sep 12, 2022)

Years ago I was briefly in Czechoslovakia, well long enough to run out of fuel. I headed into a service station and filled up only to be a bit taken aback when they wouldn't take my Visa card in payment. 

We neither of us knew exactly what to do, the fuel was in my car by then. Eventually it was agreed that I left my passport and drove into the local town to a cashpoint so I could at least pay in cash.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 12, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> That might be a funny joke to you but I can't say I appreciate the comparison.


I have just come out of a local supermarket. I guess there were 20+ tills with only 2 staffed. There must be the same number of self service tills which most be are being directed to and being overseen by just one staff member. It certainly looks like these self service monstrosities have replaced staff jobs. 
Fwiw, I bought three items and queued to pay at a properly staffed till.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 12, 2022)

hash tag said:


> I have just come out of a local supermarket. I guess there were 20+ tills with only 2 staffed. There must be the same number of self service tills which most be are being directed to and being overseen by just one staff member. It certainly looks like these self service monstrosities have replaced staff jobs.
> Fwiw, I bought three items and queued to pay at a properly staffed till.



They've recently introduced them to my local Aldi. Card only. Its great. The staff member was super attentive on both occasions, doing the ID for booze before I'd even finished. Asda take note!


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 12, 2022)

hash tag said:


> I have just come out of a local supermarket. I guess there were 20+ tills with only 2 staffed. There must be the same number of self service tills which most be are being directed to and being overseen by just one staff member. It certainly looks like these self service monstrosities have replaced staff jobs.
> Fwiw, I bought three items and queued to pay at a properly staffed till.


But you picked those three items up yourself, rather than making an assistant fetch them? Did you just carry them or use a scab basket?


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 12, 2022)

weltweit said:


> Years ago I was briefly in Czechoslovakia, well long enough to run out of fuel. I headed into a service station and filled up only to be a bit taken aback when they wouldn't take my Visa card in payment.
> 
> We neither of us knew exactly what to do, the fuel was in my car by then. Eventually it was agreed that I left my passport and drove into the local town to a cashpoint so I could at least pay in cash.


Was your Visa not good enough? You'd think so given cards back then also worked as a Czech guarantee card.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Must be mixing with the wrong people


Is it one watch per arm? Both on one arm? Multiple watches per arm? Other limbs getting involved?


----------



## hash tag (Sep 12, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> But you picked those three items up yourself, rather than making an assistant fetch them? Did you just carry them or use a scab basket?


For the record, 3 small bits for dinner and carried.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 12, 2022)

hash tag said:


> For the record, 3 small bits for dinner and carried.


Scab arms.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 13, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Is it one watch per arm? Both on one arm? Multiple watches per arm? Other limbs getting involved?


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 15, 2022)

Cash has just five years left, warns ATM boss
					

Switch to plastic pushes cash use down 40pc since the pandemic




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				




_"We have 5-10 years to fix digital payments before cash becomes unworkable, and need to start planning how to get the new system working for all.”_


----------



## hash tag (Sep 28, 2022)

It's particularly sad to see a building society closing down more branches Nottingham Building Society to close a third of branches


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 28, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Cash has just five years left, warns ATM boss
> 
> 
> Switch to plastic pushes cash use down 40pc since the pandemic
> ...



If the trend continues and atms disappear bar a limited number of government-run ones things are going to get really grim round the remaining machines. It's already the case that homeless people try to walk folk to atms because they have no cash on them, when there's hardly any at all it'll be gauntlet for punters and people begging alike.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 28, 2022)

Maybe when Charles dies they'll start putting William's head on contactless terminals.


----------



## rasputin (Sep 29, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> All your cash is useless now, with the old monarch on it. Instantly obsolete. It's the law look it up.


Not true, of course.

Before 1971 I remember coins in circulation with every monarch on them going back to Victoria. The only reason all the current notes and coins show Elizabeth II is that we had to replace everything in 1971 because of decimalisation.


----------



## moochedit (Sep 29, 2022)

rasputin said:


> Not true, of course.
> 
> Before 1971 I remember coins in circulation with every monarch on them going back to Victoria. The only reason all the current notes and coins show Elizabeth II is that we had to replace everything in 1971 because of decimalisation.


The one and two shilling coins were still valid until the 80's (worth 5p and 10p in "new money") and sometimes had older kings on them.


----------



## rasputin (Sep 29, 2022)

geminisnake said:


> None of the Scottish notes I have have Betty on them  Clydesdale, BoS and RBoS, it's just your peely wally English notes that need changed


There's no hurry to change them, as they remain valid.  It's only since 1960  that Bank of England notes have carried a portrait of the monarch. Before then they looked like this.


----------



## rasputin (Sep 29, 2022)

A380 said:


> I went to the Bank of England Museum for the first time this week. They have a new exhibition on the links between the Bank and the Slave Trade.
> 
> If you are nearby I'd recommend the whole thing. It's free, ironically.


And you also get to handle their one and only gold bar.


----------



## hash tag (Sep 29, 2022)

rasputin said:


> And you also get to handle their one and only gold bar.


Surprisingly heavy.


----------



## A380 (Sep 30, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Surprisingly heavy.


Really heavy. I mean you read about gold being heavy in everything you read about gold, and I know lead is heavy, and it’s bloody obvious gold is going to be heavy. But it’s still quite amazing how heavy it is for something he size of a large Chibatta or small load of bread. 

It’s in a sort of cage thing so you can lift it up and feel how heavy it is, did I mention it’s heavy, but you can’t stick it in your bag and saunter off with it.

It’s in a room with loads of other exhibits and it’s just in a corner, it’s not flagged up in a big way and there’s no guards or anything next to it.

It’s heavy by the way.


----------



## liquidindian (Sep 30, 2022)

(I thought it was obvious but the thing I said about money being instantly worthless was a joke. It's runaway inflation that'll do that, not the Queen dying)


----------



## hash tag (Oct 9, 2022)

How much?! The absurdity of inflation in Argentina – photo essay
					

Cash is virtually worthless, it’s cheaper to cover walls with peso bills than to buy wallpaper, and simple shopping trips turn into expeditions to find the best deals … Photographer Irina Werning captures the chaos




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## hash tag (Oct 20, 2022)

We went to visit a car park today which was £3.50 on entry. The woman with the card reader could not get the reader to work and could not take cash. She just waved us in without paying. 
This might well have caused an issue or two Break In Undersea Cable Cuts Off Scotland's Shetlands


----------



## moochedit (Oct 20, 2022)

hash tag said:


> We went to visit a car park today which was £3.50 on entry. The woman with the card reader could not get the reader to work and could not take cash. She just waved us in without paying.
> This might well have caused an issue or two Break In Undersea Cable Cuts Off Scotland's Shetlands


Going off topic but can I be the first to say it was the Putin's wot cut the cable


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 2, 2022)

Looks like an interesting book:


----------



## hash tag (Nov 2, 2022)

"cash is more crucial than ever".
Nuff said.


----------



## liquidindian (Nov 4, 2022)

hash tag said:


> Nuff said.


That idiot shouldn't have written a whole book then.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Nov 15, 2022)

People on Twitter seem to think this is a big deal and not a coincidence it comes the week after the FTX collapse. 
Banking giants and New York Fed start 12-week digital dollar pilot


----------



## NoXion (Nov 16, 2022)

Indeliblelink said:


> People on Twitter seem to think this is a big deal and not a coincidence it comes the week after the FTX collapse.
> Banking giants and New York Fed start 12-week digital dollar pilot



I understood none of that. What the fuck is a "digital dollar token"? I thought money was already mostly electronic? Sounds like some tech wanker's personal project.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 16, 2022)

NoXion said:


> I understood none of that. What the fuck is a "digital dollar token"? I thought money was already mostly electronic? Sounds like some tech wanker's personal project.


My understanding is that the novel bit is the shared nature of the database. Right now, if I transfer money to you my bank subtracts the number in their system, while your bank adds it in in theirs.

EDIT: Found a detailed description









						The Regulated Liability Network: A critical step in the evolution of CBDC
					

Central bank digital currency (CBDC) is entering a new stage of maturity. The Regulated Liability Network is a critical step in its evolution.




					blog.digitalasset.com


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 16, 2022)

When you pay for something with your debit card, a transaction gets raised on the vendor bank who credits their account with the amount and sends a note to your bank who debits your account and adds that sum to the amount they will pay over to the other bank at the end of the day. It's essentially the same process (accounting wise) that they used to do in the day when someone would move a truckload of cash from one bank to another, just it happens electronically in real time with no actual cash going anywhere.
As I understand this pilot (and I probably don't) Rather than sending each other transactions they will keep a central pool made up of virtual piles of virtual money where the logging it into customer and vendor accounts will carry on as before but rather than send total balances to each other at the end of the day they will shuffle virtual money from one virtual pile in the pool to another.
It won't have effect on the great Unwashed but will probably make things easier for the banks themselves.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 16, 2022)

rasputin said:


> Not true, of course.
> 
> Before 1971 I remember coins in circulation with every monarch on them going back to Victoria. The only reason all the current notes and coins show Elizabeth II is that we had to replace everything in 1971 because of decimalisation.



Aye, and several versions of Victoria pennies at that.


----------



## hash tag (Nov 19, 2022)

In case it has escaped your attention we are in the city of Wells all weekend. Wells virtually no mobile phone signal yet alone an internet signal. In a shop earlier, a woman had to leave without her chosen goods as the only means she had of paying was with something on her mobile telephone. I guess this didn't work because of the lack of WiFi. 
Also yesterday, large collections were being made, only in cash. Wells Cathederal has a few collection boxes for cash but only the information desk could accept card donations. Clearly a few things to be fixed yet.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 21, 2022)

rasputin said:


> Not true, of course.
> 
> Before 1971 I remember coins in circulation with every monarch on them going back to Victoria. The only reason all the current notes and coins show Elizabeth II is that we had to replace everything in 1971 because of decimalisation.


When I was a kid, before decimalisation, my brother found an 1807 penny stuck between the setts in our street. It had George III on it. It was legal tender and we could have cashed it in at the penny tray in the paper shop but my brother's a mad collector so it went straight in his coin collection. He's nearly 70 and I'm pretty sure he still has it.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 21, 2022)

Paid for petrol in cash yesterday , first time in years , I had the cash on me so thought fuck it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2022)

marty21 said:


> Paid for petrol in cash yesterday , first time in years , I had the cash on me so thought fuck it.


There's a pub I like but I've been overcharged by one barman there for drinks while using contactless, quite consistently. I'm relatively new there so don't want to kick up a fuss and will pay the exact in cash from now on


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 21, 2022)

You don't really strike me as a "don't want to kick up a fuss" person


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> You don't really strike me as a "don't want to kick up a fuss" person


normally, no. but yer man's been a barman in the pub for years and i'd rather not rock the boat when he knows all the regulars very well.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 24, 2022)

Laundrettes are still cash only aren't they ? My sister owns one , I'm not aware of being able to pay my card to wash your smalls.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Nov 24, 2022)

marty21 said:


> Laundrettes are still cash only aren't they ? My sister owns one , I'm not aware of being able to pay my card to wash your smalls.


That's right, I use the laundrette once a week as we haven't got a tumble dryer. An hour's spin has recently gone up from £6 to £10 (I have a lot of clothes!)


----------



## moochedit (Nov 24, 2022)

marty21 said:


> Laundrettes are still cash only aren't they ? My sister owns one , I'm not aware of being able to pay my card to wash your smalls.


Not used a laundrette in years as i have a washing machine but i found this company selling card payment kit to laundretts so it's not unheard of....






						Tangerpay | Cashless Laundry Machine Payments | Australia
					

Tangerpay offer a new way to pay on laundromat machines. No account setups, lock-in contracts and reduced vandalism. Contact us today to find out more.




					tangerpay.com


----------



## 8ball (Nov 24, 2022)

Used to quite enjoy the gamble over whether my little stack of 20p’s would get all my clothes dry.

Laundrettes are very meditative.

Ten quid, though!


----------



## Chz (Nov 25, 2022)

I haven't used a laundrette in a bit over 20 years, but the one I used then had their own card scheme that you put cash onto. Can't imagine it's a big jump from that to taking actual bank cards, so it must be accepted in some places at least.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 25, 2022)

8ball said:


> Used to quite enjoy the gamble over whether my little stack of 20p’s would get all my clothes dry.
> 
> Laundrettes are very meditative.
> 
> Ten quid, though!


Laundrettes are an echo from a lost past. Last time I used a laundrette was back in the 90's when our washing machine packed up and it was three or four weeks for Curry's to deliver me a new one. When the last washing machine packed up about 4 years ago, I just ordered one on the internet and it was delivered and installed within about 3 days.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 25, 2022)

Theres at least three I can think of off the top of my head in Northampton. In the poorer areas where the next day washing machine aint coming sometimes. Hauntological .

I was pleased to take out cash money yesterday to pay the bus driver and the weed man (not the same person)


----------



## ruffneck23 (Nov 27, 2022)

I use one every week in Cobham, there is also ones you can use at the Cobham m25 services, apart from those 2 there are none for miles.

The one on the M25 you can use your card as well as cash.


----------



## Elpenor (Nov 27, 2022)

A  at a motorway services?  handy for the lorry drivers I suppose


----------



## lancslad89 (Nov 27, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m not eating out all the time or anything, but I really don’t like the idea of having to leave a tip by adding it to the card payment: that’s how staff get ripped off. I’d much rather leave cash.


Yes, I agree. Staff work for tips for themselves or shared as a team - adding this to the bill electronically is cheeky by the restaurant. I never tip by card. If the option to leave cash isn't accepted, then the restaurant doesn't get a tip, it's simple.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 27, 2022)

Every time that I've asked in a restaurant: if we put a tip on by card, will it still get to you (ie the staff) the answer has always been 'yes'.

These days I rarely have any cash on me at all.

When it used to be that you paid the whole bill by cash, it was relatively easy to make sure you had the right amount to leave as a tip by doing it such that the change you got back was sufficient.

Now, the only way to be able to produce cash for tips (assuming that you don't generally use cash) is to carry around some sort of selection of various notes and coins, and also remember to regularly replenish them.

So I've tended to give up and do it by card. Sometimes I'll check that the tip will actually get to them, but somehow this introduces an awkwardness to the transaction and sometimes it ends up feeling like you've asked a stupid question.


----------



## strung out (Nov 27, 2022)

lancslad89 said:


> Yes, I agree. Staff work for tips for themselves or shared as a team - adding this to the bill electronically is cheeky by the restaurant. I never tip by card. If the option to leave cash isn't accepted, then the restaurant doesn't get a tip, it's simple.


I've never been to a restaurant where there is no option to leave cash for a tip. Has anyone got an example of this, because it sounds unbelievable.

Far more common for there to be no option to tip by card, in which case the server doesn't get a tip, because I don't carry cash.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Every time that I've asked in a restaurant: if we put a tip on by card, will it still get to you (ie the staff) the answer has always been 'yes'.



Absolutely no chance that the staff have been coached to give this answer when asked that question, regardless of whether the answer is actually true or not.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Now, the only way to be able to produce cash for tips (assuming that you don't generally use cash) is to carry around some sort of selection of various notes and coins, and also remember to regularly replenish them.



Do you just randomly pop into multiple restaurants each day? I think it should be pretty easy, if you're going out for lunch or dinner in the kind of establishments where tips are expected, to take a five or ten pound note with you or whatever.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 28, 2022)

All the public bogs in Torbay are 30p a go, card payment only. I went there in August and all the card pay gadgets on all of them were not working. Went back in November, same thing.

So I'd assume there was a significant public outlay to get them installed, in anticipation of a steady revenue stream, and now all Torbay has got for its money is people pissing in alleys. Which it could have had for free.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> All the public bogs in Torbay are 30p a go, card payment only. I went there in August and all the card pay gadgets on all of them were not working. Went back in November, same thing.
> 
> So I'd assume there was a significant public outlay to get them installed, in anticipation of a steady revenue stream, and now all Torbay has got for its money is people pissing in alleys. Which it could have had for free.



I'd love to find card payment accepted at a bog. I went to the ones off of Westminster tube station the other day - coins only, and lots of annoyed tourists standing there looking in longingly. I jumped the barrier feeling smug and intending to suggest the tourists did likewise, but I misjudged the landing after vaulting the barrier and fell flat on my face.


----------



## hash tag (Nov 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> All the public bogs in Torbay are 30p a go, card payment only. I went there in August and all the card pay gadgets on all of them were not working. Went back in November, same thing.
> 
> So I'd assume there was a significant public outlay to get them installed, in anticipation of a steady revenue stream, and now all Torbay has got for its money is people pissing in alleys. Which it could have had for free.


That doesn't seem fair on pensioners who should not have to pay!


----------



## teuchter (Nov 28, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Do you just randomly pop into multiple restaurants each day? I think it should be pretty easy, if you're going out for lunch or dinner in the kind of establishments where tips are expected, to take a five or ten pound note with you or whatever.


Yes, I suppose that each time I get a bill for, say, £8 I could leave a £5 tip on top, and my supply of £5 notes could come from some mythical widely available ATM network that dispenses £5 notes.


----------



## xenon (Nov 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Yes, I suppose that each time I get a bill for, say, £8 I could leave a £5 tip on top, and my supply of £5 notes could come from some mythical widely available ATM network that dispenses £5 notes.



Do you regularly give 60% tips?


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## moochedit (Nov 28, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I'd love to find card payment accepted at a bog.


I think i'd prefer the bog to be free.


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## xenon (Nov 28, 2022)

Think the only time I semi regularly use cash is for gigs in pubs now. Just easier to hand over the requisite note than use contactless.


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## xenon (Nov 28, 2022)

Speaking of bogs, do you still get those fellas selling a splash of collone or whatever in some clubs / bars?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2022)

xenon said:


> Do you regularly give 60% tips?


given the way he treats staff it's the only way he can be assured of service if he returns to a business


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## marty21 (Nov 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> All the public bogs in Torbay are 30p a go, card payment only. I went there in August and all the card pay gadgets on all of them were not working. Went back in November, same thing.
> 
> So I'd assume there was a significant public outlay to get them installed, in anticipation of a steady revenue stream, and now all Torbay has got for its money is people pissing in alleys. Which it could have had for free.


They used to charge 30p at two main stations I use (Liverpool St & Paddington) they stopped charging a few years ago , no charge at Kings Cross either, you don't have to spend a penny to spend a penny.


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## marty21 (Nov 28, 2022)

xenon said:


> Speaking of bogs, do you still get those fellas selling a splash of collone or whatever in some clubs / bars?


Haven't seen one in years, could be because I haven't been to a club in years.


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## Elpenor (Nov 28, 2022)

Loos are free at Victoria coach station too IIRC

Also at Waterloo.


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## kabbes (Nov 28, 2022)

xenon said:


> Do you regularly give 60% tips?


He’s sarcastically pointing out that he _doesn’t want_ to give 60% tips.


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## platinumsage (Nov 28, 2022)

If I spent just eight pounds in a restaurant I probably wouldn't worry about whether my tip ought to be a sum of 80p, £1 or zero in cash, or a similar amount paid by card. Even a generous 20% tip amounting to £1.60 would probably not lead to anguish amongst the staff should it not go in their cash pot but end up having some proportion deducted by the business owner due to it being paid by card.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 28, 2022)

xenon said:


> Speaking of bogs, do you still get those fellas selling a splash of collone or whatever in some clubs / bars?


no spray no lay, no splash no gash


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## danny la rouge (Nov 28, 2022)

No Brut, no root.


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## Elpenor (Nov 28, 2022)

If they smell like trout… you gotta kick them out


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## rubbershoes (Nov 28, 2022)

I found at a car park yesterday, that the only payment options they took were cash or through the app. 

No direct card payments. 

Is it too early to start a _the death of cards_ thread?


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## teuchter (Nov 28, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> If I spent just eight pounds in a restaurant I probably wouldn't worry about whether my tip ought to be a sum of 80p, £1 or zero in cash, or a similar amount paid by card. Even a generous 20% tip amounting to £1.60 would probably not lead to anguish amongst the staff should it not go in their cash pot but end up having some proportion deducted by the business owner due to it being paid by card.


There are lots of places, cafes and the like, where a high proportion and fairly large turnover of customers will be paying relatively small amounts, and if none of them were to give a tip, I'm sure it would make rather a big difference to the staff.

In any case, assuming you are tipping something like 10-15%, a £5 tip represents a bill of over £45.


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## Elpenor (Nov 28, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> I found at a car park yesterday, that the only payment options they took were cash or through the app.
> 
> No direct card payments.
> 
> Is it too early to start a _the death of cards_ thread?











						‘It’s discrimination’: millions of Britons frozen out in the digital age
					

From banking to shopping and parking, consumers without access to tech are left frustrated




					www.theguardian.com
				




I emailed this article to my Dad yesterday. Whenever I use Ringo in Torbay I have to authorise it via my banking app. I think a spot of digital education is needed next time I see him


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## hash tag (Nov 28, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> I found at a car park yesterday, that the only payment options they took were cash or through the app.
> 
> No direct card payments.
> 
> Is it too early to start a _the death of cards_ thread?


Thank you.  This is becoming a pain in the arse because parking machines don't accept cash. I have reluctantly registered with Ringo which has very limited coverage. Recently, when I was away, they would not accept cash or cards. I had to register with yet another company in order to pay for a short, one off park. I'm sure this will happen again before much longer. A total pain.


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## platinumsage (Nov 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> There are lots of places, cafes and the like, where a high proportion and fairly large turnover of customers will be paying relatively small amounts, and if none of them were to give a tip, I'm sure it would make rather a big difference to the staff.



Why not just tip £5 every four such visits, or £10 every eight or whatever, if carrying a smaller amount of cash is troublesome, and a tip by debit card is for some reason out of the question?


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## hash tag (Nov 28, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> ‘It’s discrimination’: millions of Britons frozen out in the digital age
> 
> 
> From banking to shopping and parking, consumers without access to tech are left frustrated
> ...


As previously stated, I find it difficult to navigate around these things and try to avoid online banking. I certainly don't use my phone to make payments. It must be worse for elderly or disabled people etc. I can't now use a credit card online because I refuse to down load some app or other. 
Imagine trying to pay for parking and it's dark and or blowing a gale, it's not easy and marginalising people.


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## teuchter (Nov 28, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Why not just tip £5 every four such visits, or £10 every eight or whatever, if carrying a smaller amount of cash is so troublesome for you, and a tip by debit card is for some reason out of the question?


Surely it would be more efficient to keep a tally of all restaurant and cafe bills, wait until it reaches £1000 and leave £150 for the lucky winner?


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## marty21 (Nov 28, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> I found at a car park yesterday, that the only payment options they took were cash or through the app.
> 
> No direct card payments.
> 
> Is it too early to start a _the death of cards_ thread?


I had to use cash yesterday as the app didn't work.  I think I could have phoned to pay my card tbf.


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## hash tag (Nov 28, 2022)

As an aside to this, I've noted that many restaurants appear very short staff at the moment and staff are working their socks off, so even more deserving of tips.


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## pbsmooth (Nov 28, 2022)

those ringo apps are a nightmare, just a shitty process every time I do it


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## marty21 (Nov 28, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> those ringo apps are a nightmare, just a shitty process every time I do it


It used to work fine for me ,but lately it has been shite.


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## Elpenor (Nov 28, 2022)

Having to authorise every time via my banking app is a pain. Otherwise it’s fine for me. Torbay do a sneaky thing where it’s effectively running a meter so you have to remember to stop it. But I suppose equally you don’t end up coming back to a ticket if you overstay


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## Elpenor (Nov 28, 2022)

I also realised recently I’ve not seen a £2 coin for at least a year


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## platinumsage (Nov 28, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Surely it would be more efficient to keep a tally of all restaurant and cafe bills, wait until it reaches £1000 and leave £150 for the lucky winner?



Probably better off paying the staff a reasonable tip directly via bank transfer if you want to be cashless and don't trust debit card tips.


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## ouirdeaux (Nov 28, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Loos are free at Victoria coach station too IIRC
> 
> Also at Waterloo.



They're free at Victoria Station, as at other rail stations, but not at the coach station. Or weren't up till 2020 -- haven't been there since.


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## Elpenor (Nov 28, 2022)

ouirdeaux said:


> They're free at Victoria Station, as at other rail stations, but not at the coach station. Or weren't up till 2020 -- haven't been there since.


When I was last at the coach station at Easter they were free, which may have been a pandemic thing. Hopefully continued as my journeys are usually four hours or so and I have no intention of using the loo on board


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## ouirdeaux (Nov 28, 2022)

There's a pub opposite the coach station called the Traveller's Rest. If you enter via the Elizabeth Street entrance, you can immediately go upstairs and use their lavs. You're supposed to make a donation as a non-customer, but I've never been targeted and hassled.


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## moochedit (Nov 28, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> I found at a car park yesterday, that the only payment options they took were cash or through the app.
> 
> No direct card payments.
> 
> Is it too early to start a _the death of cards_ thread?


There is a car park near me like that but you have to register a card number in the app so technically it is still a card payment.


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## marty21 (Nov 28, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> I also realised recently I’ve not seen a £2 coin for at least a year


 #hth


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## DotCommunist (Nov 28, 2022)

is that a fingernail for size reference?


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## kabbes (Nov 28, 2022)

rubbershoes said:


> I found at a car park yesterday, that the only payment options they took were cash or through the app.
> 
> No direct card payments.
> 
> Is it too early to start a _the death of cards_ thread?


At my local station car park, it will soon be app only.


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## marty21 (Nov 28, 2022)

DotCommunist said:


> is that a fingernail for size reference?


I don't know what it was, it has now fallen off (wasn't  a fingernail - they are still  attached)


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## marty21 (Nov 28, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Having to authorise every time via my banking app is a pain. Otherwise it’s fine for me. Torbay do a sneaky thing where it’s effectively running a meter so you have to remember to stop it. But I suppose equally you don’t end up coming back to a ticket if you overstay


just checked it - only used it once in 2022 - I'm guessing I had to use cash on the other occasions.


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## andysays (Nov 28, 2022)

marty21 said:


> They used to charge 30p at two main stations I use (Liverpool St & Paddington) they stopped charging a few years ago , no charge at Kings Cross either, you don't have to spend a penny to spend a penny.


You do have to fight your way through hoardes of tourists queuing to have their photo taken at the fucking Harry Potter platform sign though, as I discovered a few weekends ago when I was in a bit of a hurry.


Being charged after that would have been adding insult to injury, frankly.


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## liquidindian (Nov 28, 2022)

Cash shortages feared over xmas after workers plan 48-hour strike
					

Private security company G4S, which delivers cash and coins to some of the UK’s largest banks and retailers, is planning a 48-hour strike next month over “low pay”.




					www.fstech.co.uk
				




Potential cash shortage. Hard to tell how likely it is because of course the GMB won't say it's not an important service and there will be zero disruption, but also this is the time of year when cash is used the most.


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## NoXion (Nov 28, 2022)

kabbes said:


> At my local station car park, it will soon be app only.



How the fuck is this not a major accessibility issue? Same thing with the card-only pay toilets  mentioned by SpookyFrank earlier.


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## kabbes (Nov 28, 2022)

NoXion said:


> How the fuck is this not a major accessibility issue? Same thing with the card-only pay toilets  mentioned by SpookyFrank earlier.


It’s clearly unacceptable (as these private car park operators so often are). On the plus side, if you don’t pay, a railway car park operator has basically zero ways to force you to respect their fine. Only the train operating company can take you to court and they DGAF so why would they bother?


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## liquidindian (Nov 28, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Having to authorise every time via my banking app is a pain.


Is it a direct payment from the app, not using a card (probably Open Banking)? That's interesting.


rubbershoes said:


> Is it too early to start a _the death of cards_ thread?


I think I mentioned this elsewhere in the thread but I've spoken to businesses that issue prepay cards who have already started thinking about the death of cards (if not doing much about it yet).


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## moochedit (Nov 28, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Is it a direct payment from the app, not using a card (probably Open Banking)? That's interesting.
> 
> I think I mentioned this elsewhere in the thread but I've spoken to businesses that issue prepay cards who have already started thinking about the death of cards (if not doing much about it yet).


When making card payments on phone apps a couple of times my barclays app has kicked in to ask me if it was me so could mean that? (This is a newish thing)


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## Elpenor (Nov 28, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> Is it a direct payment from the app, not using a card (probably Open Banking)? That's interesting.


No - using my card which is saved in the app. I think it’s probably a first direct thing as I’ve just switched to them


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## liquidindian (Nov 28, 2022)

moochedit said:


> When making card payments on phone apps a couple of times my barclays app has kicked in to ask me if it was me


This sounds more like SCA or Strong Customer Authentication, an extra security check when using your card online or on mobile. (Also required face to face but Chip and PIN works for this)

Open Banking payments don't use the card schemes like Visa or Mastercard at all. They go straight from your account using an API. I pay off my Halifax credit card like this, I just say pay using my Monzo account and it opens my Monzo account, I confirm it, and it's done. I haven't seen any other payments work like this yet.


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## LeytonCatLady (Nov 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> All the public bogs in Torbay are 30p a go, card payment only. I went there in August and all the card pay gadgets on all of them were not working. Went back in November, same thing.
> 
> So I'd assume there was a significant public outlay to get them installed, in anticipation of a steady revenue stream, and now all Torbay has got for its money is people pissing in alleys. Which it could have had for free.


Anger primarily at anyone being charged to do their business, and secondarily at the card thing - that's adding insult to injury.


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## moochedit (Nov 28, 2022)

liquidindian said:


> This sounds more like SCA or Strong Customer Authentication, an extra security check when using your card online or on mobile. (Also required face to face but Chip and PIN works for this)
> 
> Open Banking payments don't use the card schemes like Visa or Mastercard at all. They go straight from your account using an API. I pay off my Halifax credit card like this, I just say pay using my Monzo account and it opens my Monzo account, I confirm it, and it's done. I haven't seen any other payments work like this yet.


Yeah i've heard of "open banking" but i've not used it myself.  I was talking about card payments where a couple of times i've had to log into the app to confirm them. I think they are sending sms codes to people without the app. (It doesn't do it with every payment)


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## MrSki (Nov 28, 2022)

Sorry if this has been posted before but not read the whole thread.   



> Nicked from somewhere or other.


Why should we pay cash everywhere with banknotes instead of a card?

I have a £50 banknote in my pocket. I go to a restaurant and paying for dinner with it. The restaurant owner then uses the note to pay for the laundry. The laundry owner then uses the note to pay the barber. The barber will then use the note for shopping. After an unlimited number of payments, it will still remain a £50, which has fulfilled its purpose to everyone who used it for payment and the bank has jumped dry from every cash payment transaction made..
But if I come to a restaurant and pay for dinner digitally - Card bank fees for my payment transaction charged to the seller are 3%, so around £1.50 and so the fee will be  £1.50 for each further payment transaction or owner re laundry or payments of the owner of the laundry shop, or payments of the barber etc..... Therefore, after 30 transactions, the initial £50 will remain only £5 and the remaining £45 became the property of the bank thanks to all digital transactions and fees.


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## moochedit (Nov 28, 2022)

MrSki said:


> Sorry if this has been posted before but not read the whole thread.
> 
> 
> Why should we pay cash everywhere with banknotes instead of a card?
> ...


Businesses that take cash have other costs like paying securicor to collect the cash and take to bank etc.


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## MrSki (Nov 28, 2022)

moochedit said:


> Businesses that take cash have other costs like paying securicor to collect the cash and take to bank etc.


True but market stalls take cards & cash. 

I take money out of the cashpoint outside the supermarket to use inside.


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## weltweit (Nov 28, 2022)

I like cash, I have £50 in my wallet and change at the moment, but the truth is I use my card most of the time. There is the traceability of cards which I don't like but who really worries about that, but cards are just so easy.


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## liquidindian (Nov 28, 2022)

MrSki said:


> Card bank fees for my payment transaction charged to the seller are 3%


0.2% for debit cards, 0.3% for credit cards. But I don't think it's a good point anyway, even if the numbers were correct.


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## teuchter (Nov 28, 2022)

It's nonsense because it ignores what happens to the transaction charge money once it's are paid to the bank or card service company, as if banks don't pay their employees and their employees never go to launderettes or restaurants or whatever.


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## MickiQ (Nov 28, 2022)

MrSki said:


> Sorry if this has been posted before but not read the whole thread.
> 
> 
> Why should we pay cash everywhere with banknotes instead of a card?
> ...


This has been published before on the thread about the pub in London that has gone cash only.
If you think about even for a moment it's clear this is total nonsense. Every single digital transaction is unique and unconnected to any other, for this statement to be even remotely accurate there would have to be digital notes being passed around and there isn't. There is no virtual £50 losing value with each transaction.
The problem with card/digital transactions of course is that they are easier and more convenient for the banks, the retailers and almost all customers. Apart from the small proportion of the population that doesn't have easy access to things like cards and smartphones. Cash isn't going to disappear altogether but it is going to be harder and harder to a) get physical cash in the first place and b) find places to spend it.
But since you can't force businesses to take it and you certainly can't force the bulk of the population to use it enough to force businesses to keep taking it then this would appear to be an unstoppable trend.


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## Elpenor (Nov 28, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> This has been published before on the thread about the pub in London that has gone cash only.
> If you think about even for a moment it's clear this is total nonsense. Every single digital transaction is unique and unconnected to any other, for this statement to be even remotely accurate there would have to be digital notes being passed around and there isn't. There is no virtual £50 losing value with each transaction.
> The problem with card/digital transactions of course is that they are easier and more convenient for the banks, the retailers and almost all customers. Apart from the small proportion of the population that doesn't have easy access to things like cards and smartphones. Cash isn't going to disappear altogether but it is going to be harder and harder to a) get physical cash in the first place and b) find places to spend it.
> But since you can't force businesses to take it and you certainly can't force the bulk of the population to use it enough to force businesses to keep taking it then this would appear to be an unstoppable trend.


Wasn’t it a pub in Swindon?


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## MrSki (Nov 28, 2022)

Is the Brixton pound still going?


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## Winot (Nov 28, 2022)

MrSki said:


> Is the Brixton pound still going?


Don’t think so.


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## Winot (Nov 28, 2022)

Working on the Brixton cryptopound apparently:





__





						Brixton Pound chooses the Algorand blockchain on which to develop a tokenized version of their innovative Complimentary Local Currency, the Brixton Pound.
					






					www.algorand.foundation


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## Winot (Nov 28, 2022)

In the early days you got 10 Brixton pounds for GBP 9. Used to spend them at Honest Burgers and make a better return than the FTSE.


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## 8ball (Nov 28, 2022)

Winot said:


> Working on the Brixton cryptopound apparently:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ooh, that’ll be reet popular on here.


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## Chz (Nov 28, 2022)

For a business account, I can get lower fees for card transactions than cash deposits now. If you're going to do _everything_ cash in hand then sure it can work. But the moment you're on the books there's no real advantage. It has always cost money to operate with cash, but in the past it was completely hidden inside the businesses' operating costs and you didn't know about it. Now that it's (somewhat) visible to the consumer it seems like a new thing, but really nothing has changed.


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## hash tag (Dec 11, 2022)

I had to claim some petty cash at work last week, nearly £100. Is was given to me in.......cash.


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## danny la rouge (Dec 11, 2022)

hash tag said:


> I had to claim some petty cash at work last week, nearly £100. Is was given to me in.......cash.


Do you live in 1860?


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## marty21 (Dec 11, 2022)

Had some cash on me Friday night , so paid for a round (£30) in cash 😳 asked them if they took cash cos I no longer know when I'm in a pub if they do.


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## DaphneM (Dec 11, 2022)

Got given £30 cash so stuck it in my piggy bank with all the foreign notes that never get used


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## brogdale (Dec 11, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> Got given £30 cash so stuck it in my piggy bank with all the foreign notes that never get used


Blimey, you must be doing well to be able to afford doing that.


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## marty21 (Dec 11, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> Got given £30 cash so stuck it in my piggy bank with all the foreign notes that never get used


Buy a round 😎


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## Elpenor (Dec 11, 2022)

Got to get some out later to pay man with van. He wants £45, i suspect he’s going to get £50 as there won’t be any fivers available


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## DaphneM (Dec 11, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Blimey, you must be doing well to be able to afford doing that.


I make a living

But you do realise I’m saving it, not using it to light cigars with??


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