# RIM's PlayBook (yet another tablet)



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 27, 2010)

RIM introduces it's answer to the iPad: the Playbook.











> 7-inch LCD, 1024 x 600, WSVGA, capacitive touch screen with full multi-touch and gesture support
> BlackBerry Tablet OS with support for symmetric multiprocessing
> 1 GHz dual-core processor
> 1 GB RAM
> ...


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## editor (Sep 28, 2010)

Ah cool, I was waiting for the official video to drop before posting up a Wirefresh article!


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## Crispy (Sep 28, 2010)

Veeeeeery interesting indeed. Especially the foleo-like syncing. Palm were just too early with that one...


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## editor (Sep 28, 2010)

They've nicked Palm's 'card' view too.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 28, 2010)

Can't seem to find battery life on this thing. Looks ok I suppose...must say I'm mildly interested in the 'PalmPad' but don't expect that or any of these to come close to the colossal commercial might of the iPad...


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## kyser_soze (Sep 28, 2010)

So you don't think that a tablet with the business friendly functionality of Blackberry won't sell that well? I'd say they've potentially got a hefty spending market sector tied down.


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## tarannau (Sep 28, 2010)

Really? RIM's losing market share quickly in the corporates, particularly the financial world ime. The iphone and ipad are doing a roaring trade and IT teams are no longer so obstructive towards all things Apple and corporate networks. Too many big bosses have dumped their Blackberries of late

RIM's strengths are in simplicity and in handy corporate email. It's a big ask for them to seem like a plausible player elsewhere - I suspect Apple and Google already own the entertainment/non corporate space that seems most endearing to users.


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## Crispy (Sep 28, 2010)

As a general note, I'm not sure if the 16:9 7" screen is particularly optimal for tablets - too narrow in portrait, too short in landscape if the keybaord's up. We shall see.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 28, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> So you don't think that a tablet with the business friendly functionality of Blackberry won't sell that well? I'd say they've potentially got a hefty spending market sector tied down.


 
I never said it won't sell just that it won't touch the iPad.


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## g force (Sep 28, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Really? RIM's losing market share quickly in the corporates, particularly the financial world ime. The iphone and ipad are doing a roaring trade and IT teams are no longer so obstructive towards all things Apple and corporate networks. Too many big bosses have dumped their Blackberries of late
> 
> RIM's strengths are in simplicity and in handy corporate email. It's a big ask for them to seem like a plausible player elsewhere - I suspect Apple and Google already own the entertainment/non corporate space that seems most endearing to users.


 
See Apple's PR would like the world to think that but it's simply not true. Sure many people are "evaluating" iphones but as soon as the IT team brings out the security check list, its comes down to RIM or maybe an Android. True of our company, or biggest comeptitors and indeed many clients...they all have their own iphones that pull their corp email but they still have the 'work' Blackberry due to permissions, clean wipes etc.

RIMs killer device isn't the handset it's BES. Nothing gets close to that in terms of control, risk etc that IT teams at large FS firms need by law.


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## tarannau (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't believe that is true. I work in tech ops for one of the big information providers for the financial world - you can probably guess which one of the two it is with a little post snooping

The picture that you've painted is exactly what used to happen, with IT teams leading the debate and plumping for the established, safe norm. However throw in a couple of notable CEOs (ours included) being very attached to their iphones and refusing to accept those conditions from their MIS crews and things have changed remarkably rapidly. Our iphone and ipad software downloads to those markets are rising rapidly, whilst Blackberry demand is flatlining at best

Even internally, iphones now connect to the corporate network where it was previously strictly RIM products only. That's only likely to accelerate imo - users are buying their iphones and leaving Blackberries increasingly in the hands of lower level staff forcibly issued with RIM products. That's partly the reason why I can't really see this tablet taking off - it seems of marginal benefit to corporate buyers presently, whereas there doesn't seem much worker loyalty to RIM products here and beyond in the financial sector - they're seen as workaday tools.


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## g force (Sep 28, 2010)

No fair enough, particularly with this tablet. It's nice but I can't see it being a roaring success in RIMs core market.

And for your firm I can believe that is true but I know a similar CEO at a large bank that sounds like SBR who stomped his feet about getting iphones for his Execs until IT pointed out it wouldn't be complaint with FSA rules around data integrity. Now of course they could work around that, write new rules, submit them to the FSA and get it okayed but right now those IT teams have enough on their plate from the FSA and it's intra-day reporting requirement to worry about mobile handsets.

The trend however I do agree with RIM pretty much saturated the corporate market....where does it go now? It's handests, its OS and it's fucking shit browser aren't good enough for general consumers and it shows in their sales.


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## editor (Sep 28, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Really? RIM's losing market share quickly in the corporates, particularly the financial world ime. The iphone and ipad are doing a roaring trade and IT teams are no longer so obstructive towards all things Apple and corporate networks. Too many big bosses have dumped their Blackberries of late


Although both enjoyed increased sales, both RIM and Apple's US smartphone share went *down* in the last quarter (1.8% and 1.3% respectively). Despite that, Blackberry still hog a massive 39.3% share, with Apple a fair way behind on 23.8%, so I imagine there'd be a fair demand from business users for their tablet.

Although Google/Android only command a 12% share, that has soared by a massive 5% and is likely to continue growing at a very fast rate.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-20016647-94.html


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## editor (Sep 28, 2010)

I'd imagine that their Foleo-inspired idea of using existing Blackberry phones for 3G connectivity would make things much easier to manage in the corporate world too.


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## tarannau (Sep 28, 2010)

Why would corporate buyers go for a RIM tablet and phone combination though? Outside of a few specific users - door to door pollers, engineers etc - surely they're more likely to buy laptops for executives.

Equally - outside of a few text heavy teens - I don't know that many people who actually opt to buy Blackbery products over the alternatives. It's a big ask to extend their brand to something more entertainment based that people will want to buy into.


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## Sunray (Sep 28, 2010)

editor said:


> I'd imagine that their Foleo-inspired idea of using existing Blackberry phones for 3G connectivity would make things much easier to manage in the corporate world too.


 
And totally like putting a gun it its mouth and pulling the trigger. Connectivity via another device is just plain wrong.

The Foleo was such a great idea they spent 10 million dollars and pulled the plug?


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## editor (Sep 28, 2010)

Sunray said:


> And totally like putting a gun it its mouth and pulling the trigger. Connectivity via another device is just plain wrong.


It would suit me just fine at times, and there's no shortage of folks delighted to be able to hook up their laptops to the web via their Android phones.


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## Sunray (Sep 28, 2010)

This is more like the weight/size combination I think is more realistic, certainly to carry about.

I like all the smooth animation and transitions these devices have brought to the table.


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## fogbat (Sep 28, 2010)

That's a big fat edge around the screen, isn't it?


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## Crispy (Sep 28, 2010)

fogbat said:


> That's a big fat edge around the screen, isn't it?


 
about the same as the ipad's
you need it in order to grip the thing without covering the screen with your tumbs


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## Sunray (Sep 28, 2010)

I just picked up the iPad and yup, every time I do I think its too heavy. 

This is 408g compared to the 680g of the iPad.  

I still think that Apple know that the iPad too big and heavy, its just too big and heavy, but it was a land grab, get in there 1st and them technology will make it lighter.

RIM have addressed this, but I am not sure its quite down low enough to take it into the 'easy' to use category.


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## editor (Sep 28, 2010)

The iPad's definitely to heavy for my needs. I wouldn't want to lie in bed holding that hefty lump up!

That said, I can't imagine the Blackberry tablet getting too many compelling apps, and that's a large part of the iPad's attraction, but I'm sure there'll be loads there for business orientated work.


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 28, 2010)

This looks great, it has all the things putting me off an iPad...a camera and usb for starters. Great potential.

I have been seriously considering a Blackberry as my next phone and the tethering would be handy. I know I'm in the minority here, but touchscreen Android phones aren't my cup of tea and I want a real keyboard on my next phone.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 28, 2010)

Anyone seen anything about battery life?


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 28, 2010)

Nope. I expect that battery life should be very good though, if they want it to be a serious competitor...


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 28, 2010)

Watched the video again, it's a bit thick, and looks a bit cheap and plasticky. The Apple problem presents itself again, it lacks a certain slickness...but proof will be in the using. Be interesting to see whether Apple does release an iPad nano given that more and more tablets seem to be 6-8 inch in size...


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## paolo (Sep 28, 2010)

The iPad weight is similar to a medium sized hardback. It's not an OMG! issue. You just find yourself propping it and not really caring that much.


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## paolo (Sep 28, 2010)

mwgdrwg said:


> Nope. I expect that battery life should be very good though, if they want it to be a serious competitor...


 
Why do you expect it to be good?

It's something they've chosen not to put in the specs.

One of two scenarios:

(a) It's very good, and yet despite an impressive marketing piece, they forgot to mention a key selling feature.

Or

(b) It's a bit shit.


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 28, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Watched the video again, it's a bit thick, and looks a bit cheap and plasticky. The Apple problem presents itself again, it lacks a certain slickness...but proof will be in the using. Be interesting to see whether Apple does release an iPad nano given that more and more tablets seem to be 6-8 inch in size...



It's 10mm thick, the iPad is 13.4mm.

So I would say 'thin'.


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 28, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> Why do you expect it to be good?
> 
> It's something they've chosen not to put in the specs.
> 
> ...


 
I expect it to be good because RIM are placing it as a competitor to iPad.

I may be wrong, but so could you. I am just speculating on the battery life, as are you.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 28, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> Why do you expect it to be good?
> 
> It's something they've chosen not to put in the specs.
> 
> ...



Yep. I'm betting on b. Anything less than 5 hours is a joke.


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## paolo (Sep 28, 2010)

mwgdrwg said:


> I expect it to be good because RIM are placing it as a competitor to iPad.
> 
> I may be wrong, but so could you. I am just speculating on the battery life, as are you.


 
I've not said it will be shit. (Edit: well, implied )

Just that it's unlikely - given the quality of the marketing - that they 'forgot'.

 We'll see.

For the sake of whether I eat my Internet hat... What do you define as good?


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 28, 2010)

Well if the iPad is great at 10 hours, and 5 or less is shit......let's say 7.5?


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## paolo (Sep 28, 2010)

mwgdrwg said:


> Well if the iPad is great at 10 hours, and 5 or less is shit......let's say 7.5?


 
Sounds like a fair call.

7.5 or better is 'good'.
5.0 - 7.5 is 'meh'.
Less than 5.0 is 'a bit shit'.


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 28, 2010)

Heh, that's the scale I was thinking of.

I wonder what the quality of the apps will be? Calling it _Play_Book....there'd better be some eye catching stuff for it.


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## paolo (Sep 28, 2010)

mwgdrwg said:


> Heh, that's the scale I was thinking of.
> 
> I wonder what the quality of the apps will be? Calling it _Play_Book....there'd better be some eye catching stuff for it.


 
I think that's a product name dreamt up by an US centric marketing department.

A playbook is the crucial 'manual' for an American football team. It's implied meaning for US users will be clear and punchy, but for countries less into the game of 'chess on a football field', it'll be less clear. As you are finding. Playbook doesn't mean the frivolity of play.


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## editor (Sep 28, 2010)

mwgdrwg said:


> I have been seriously considering a Blackberry as my next phone and the tethering would be handy. I know I'm in the minority here, but touchscreen Android phones aren't my cup of tea and I want a real keyboard on my next phone.


FYI, there are several Android devices with a hardware keyboard and you can, of course, tether all manner of devices to any handset running the latest version of the OS.


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## cliche guevara (Sep 28, 2010)

mwgdrwg said:


> Heh, that's the scale I was thinking of.
> 
> I wonder what the quality of the apps will be? Calling it _Play_Book....there'd better be some eye catching stuff for it.


 


editor said:


> FYI, there are several Android devices with a hardware keyboard and you can, of course, tether all manner of devices to any handset running the latest version of the OS.



HTC Desire Z is what you're after. http://www.htc.com/www/product/desirez/overview.html


Back on topic, I can't see all these emerging tablet OS's surviving, and RIM are late to the party here.


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 28, 2010)

editor said:


> FYI, there are several Android devices with a hardware keyboard and you can, of course, tether all manner of devices to any handset running the latest version of the OS.



Yeah, I've seen the new Desire Z. Looks really impressive. I've got a Hero, and have used my friend's Desire a few times....it seemed too big and heavy for my personal liking, and that's without a keyboard.

_But_, I've been playing with my wife's Blackberry recently (ooh-er). It's small and light, and there's something about the way it works and feels in the hand that I really really like.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 28, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> Sounds like a fair call.
> 
> 7.5 or better is 'good'.
> 5.0 - 7.5 is 'meh'.
> Less than 5.0 is 'a bit shit'.


 
Very glad we got that agreed, will save us a lot of hassle further down the road.


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## paolo (Sep 28, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Very glad we got that agreed, will save us a lot of hassle further down the road.


 
I declare this the formal ratification of the standard 'Urban75 Scale of Tablet Battery Life'


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## editor (Sep 28, 2010)

A topical article from Info Week:



> *Five Ways PlayBook Kills iPad*
> 
> 1. Not One, but TWO, Cameras
> This is a killer differentiator. The PlayBook has a 3-megapixel user-facing camera and a 5-megapixel rear-facing camera. The main camera can also shoot 1080p HD video. The iPad has no cameras at all. RIM wins this one hands down.
> ...


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## paolo (Sep 28, 2010)

Cut and paste opinions.

Post your own.


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## editor (Sep 28, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> Cut and paste opinions.
> 
> Post your own.


I already have, but to repeat: it beats the iPad on size and weight, I think the tethered smartphone approach is a win for Blackberry users, the webOS rip off interface looks great, it won't have as many apps as the iPad, but I expect that there'll be more than enough there to keep business bods happy.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 28, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> I declare this the formal ratification of the standard 'Urban75 Scale of Tablet Battery Life'


 
Agreed, this truly is a historic day!


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 28, 2010)

Dumb Twitterbait PlayBook vs iPad article gets fantastic comment


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## Crispy (Sep 29, 2010)

Specs are interesting, but user experience and apps will decide its fate


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 29, 2010)

And battery life, judged in accordance with the 'Urban75 Scale of Tablet Battery Life'.


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## JWH (Sep 29, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Why would corporate buyers go for a RIM tablet and phone combination though? Outside of a few specific users - door to door pollers, engineers etc - surely they're more likely to buy laptops for executives.



I'm with you on this one. I might be being unimaginative and tech's not my field but if the iPad is oriented to "content consumers" and most of its sales seem (afaics) to be to the domestic market, then is corporate email integration and the rest of RIM's corporate-oriented advantages going to be that relevant? I had a laptop back when I was a desk jockey working for someone else and now that I'm a sort-of freelance I have my own laptop - and an iPad/Playbook definitely isn't going to replace it and wouldn't do enough useful supplementing to be worthwhile.



tarannau said:


> Equally - outside of a few text heavy teens - I don't know that many people who actually opt to buy Blackbery products over the alternatives. It's a big ask to extend their brand to something more entertainment based that people will want to buy into.


 
TBF, I know quite a few people for whom BBM is a critical app - hundreds of international text messages v flat fee for BIS. To outsell the iPhone in the US, they can't all be corporate users (and I have noticed quite a few corporate iPhone users recently). But it doesn't do music and video as well, unquestionably. And it's just not cool.


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## Crispy (Sep 29, 2010)

The iphone can't compete in the US because it's tied to one network


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## g force (Sep 29, 2010)

BBM is massive with the teens....loads of kids in SW16 have BB phones, mainly because it does what they need it to do - twitter, FB, messenger via apps and the handset comes free on most packages. 16 year olds generally don't have £150 to drop on a handset, esp when all their mates have a BB too.


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## elbows (Sep 29, 2010)

Interesting device, I'll wait till the price, battery life etc are better understood before reaching any conclusions. Release date is a bit vague for this one too.


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## JWH (Sep 30, 2010)

Crispy said:


> The iphone can't compete in the US because it's tied to one network


 
Fair enough, I hadn't thought of that. But even so, there are tons of kidz that have BBs.


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## paolo (Sep 30, 2010)

g force said:


> 16 year olds generally don't have £150 to drop on a handset


 
Indeed not, so they won't be buying far pricier tablets en-masse either.


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## Crispy (Oct 1, 2010)

Android tablet talk moved to http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/332673-Android-tablets


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## editor (Oct 1, 2010)

Interesting piece on Techradar:



> Expect impressive games as well, because the PlayBook supports C++ and OpenGL. "What this tablet is going to able to be do in the area of gaming is going to be off the scale", claims Dodge. "You can do games in Java as well but you're probably not doing your first-person shooter there."
> 
> Expectations like that are why Dodge says; "This isn't just another tablet;this is a killer tablet." If RIM can deliver what he's promising the PlayBook will do (and developers pick up the ideas and create apps that match his grand vision), it's going to be truly impressive.



http://www.techradar.com/news/mobil...laybook-has-the-power-to-beat-the-ipad-720507


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## Crispy (Oct 1, 2010)

And now that apple's relaxed the rules on 3rd party development tools, there should be plenty of software that's released for both platforms. This sounds like a good device all round really.


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## Winot (Oct 1, 2010)

I just can't get past the dirty name


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## elbows (Oct 1, 2010)

editor said:


> Interesting piece on Techradar:
> 
> http://www.techradar.com/news/mobil...laybook-has-the-power-to-beat-the-ipad-720507


 
Well its good to know that the operating system is flexible enough that the hardware wont be under-utilised. Without knowing what GPU the device uses its hard to estimate what games performance will be like, I certainly dont expect them to saddle it with a rubbish GPU but its also hard to be sure that their GPU will be much better than what other tablets are offering. The dual-core CPU should help but we'll still have to wait some time to see whether games this device offers can theoretically be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition.


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## stupid dogbot (Oct 1, 2010)

Winot said:


> I just can't get past the dirty name


 
RimPlay Book?


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## magneze (Feb 11, 2011)

Thought I'd bump this with some interesting news: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/02/11/rim_putting_android_apps_on_playbook_tablet/

Android apps to be able to run on the Playbook. Could be a masterstroke from RIM.


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## mwgdrwg (Feb 15, 2011)

Watched a video of this playing Need For Speed (comes free with it) and Quake III at the same time, it looks polished, *super fast*, and slick.

eta: here's the vid:


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## editor (Feb 15, 2011)

I'm not feeling much consumer enthusiasm for this RIM tablet, you know.


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## mwgdrwg (Feb 15, 2011)

editor said:


> I'm not feeling much consumer enthusiasm for this RIM tablet, you know.



Looks good though, doesn't it.


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## editor (Feb 15, 2011)

mwgdrwg said:


> Looks good though, doesn't it.


It looks much the same as the Motorola XOOM, the HP one and a load of other Android ones, all of which I imagine will be able to play games smoothly too. 

It's not on my short list, and their attempts to make it Android app compatible looks like a bit of punter-confusing desperation to me.


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## mwgdrwg (Feb 15, 2011)

editor said:


> It looks much the same as the Motorola XOOM, the HP one and a load of other Android ones, all of which I imagine will be able to play games smoothly too.
> 
> It's not on my short list, and their attempts to make it Android app compatible looks like a bit of punter-confusing desperation to me.



I've not seen any videos of those in action, so I couldn't comment upon them.


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## magneze (Feb 15, 2011)

I don't really want a tablet, but if I did then this would be the front runner for me. I don't like the way Apple do things and I'm yet to be convinced by Android 3 - those tablets all seem a bit "me too". HP's webOS won't have any apps. The Playbook OS is by all accounts the dogs; with Android compatibility it could be the best iPad competitor of the lot.


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## pinkmonkey (Feb 15, 2011)

g force said:


> BBM is massive with the teens....loads of kids in SW16 have BB phones, mainly because it does what they need it to do - twitter, FB, messenger via apps and the handset comes free on most packages. 16 year olds generally don't have £150 to drop on a handset, esp when all their mates have a BB too.



Yeah I noticed that too, BB for flash teenagers, iphone for well-off 30somethings.


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## pinkmonkey (Feb 15, 2011)

magneze said:


> I don't really want a tablet, but if I did then this would be the front runner for me. I don't like the way Apple do things and I'm yet to be convinced by Android 3 - those tablets all seem a bit "me too"


I agree - these wannabee tablets just leave me thinking 'meh'  I'm more excited about ebook readers TBH.


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 15, 2011)

mwgdrwg said:


> Watched a video of this playing Need For Speed (comes free with it) and Quake III at the same time, it looks polished, *super fast*, and slick.
> 
> eta: here's the vid:




That looks fucking excellent! Very smooth, and very slick switches between the cards (which are clearly still running too). Very nice.


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## mwgdrwg (Feb 15, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That looks fucking excellent! Very smooth, and very slick switches between the cards (which are clearly still running too). Very nice.



Some consumer enthusiasm!


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 15, 2011)

mwgdrwg said:


> Some consumer enthusiasm!


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 22, 2011)

Harry McCracken writes a quick hands-on of the commercial release version of the PlayBook - http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2066615,00.html Short version (even though it's not a long article): he thinks some bits are great but the software feels unfinished and buggy. I have to say their email "solution" sounds really bizarre.


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## editor (Apr 22, 2011)

I'm glad Palm didn't 'do an Apple' here and dredge up yet another law suit, but the interface is _completely_ stolen from their webOS, as that review confirms:



> The user interface pays the sincerest form of flattery to HP's WebOS, as seen on the Pre phone and the upcoming TouchPad tablet, but it's easy to pick up and fun to use. Swipe upward, for instance, and you get access to other apps; swipe downward, and you get features such as the ability to open new tabs in the browser. Everything's fast and fluid, even if you've got a bunch of programs open.


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## magneze (May 16, 2011)

Pretty positive review here: http://www.reghardware.com/2011/05/16/review_rim_blackberry_playbook/


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## FridgeMagnet (May 16, 2011)

It'll bomb though.


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## Kid_Eternity (May 16, 2011)

Haven't that just issued a recall on a few thousand of these?


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## editor (May 16, 2011)

If someone was dishing them out free, I'd take one. But I haven't any interest in buying one of these, or an iPad or a HTC Flyer or anything else until the prices of such frivolous but enjoyable gadgets come down to something justifiable.


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## Kid_Eternity (May 16, 2011)

I wouldn't hold your breath on the prices coming down anytime soon...


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## editor (May 16, 2011)

That's OK because I'm in no hurry to buy a tablet!


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## Kid_Eternity (May 16, 2011)

editor said:


> That's OK because I'm in no hurry to buy a tablet!


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## magneze (May 17, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Haven't that just issued a recall on a few thousand of these?


Yep, but only in the supply line, none went to customers apparently.

The success of the PlayBook probably depends on businesses finding a use for tablets. Tablet's consumption, not creation model is a bit of a problem in this space IMO.

Unless RIM really open it up to the wider Android marketplace I can't see it being particularly successful in the consumer space.


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## Sunray (May 17, 2011)

editor said:


> If someone was dishing them out free, I'd take one. But I haven't any interest in buying one of these, or an iPad or a HTC Flyer or anything else until the prices of such frivolous but enjoyable gadgets come down to something justifiable.



This will continue to be my biggest gripe over the size and performance.


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## editor (Sep 29, 2011)

It looks like RIM may be dumping the chump.


> Research In Motion has reportedly stopped production of its BlackBerry PlayBook tablet and is considering exiting the space altogether. Collins Stewart analyst John Vinh made the claims in a note to investors Thursday morning, citing anonymous sources at RIM’s manufacturing partner Quanta. “While Quanta last week acknowledged that it had laid off a significant number of production workers from a factory focused on producing the PlayBook, our research indicates that the ODM has essentially halted production of the tablet, Vinh wrote. “Additionally, our due diligence indicates that RIMM has canceled development of additional tablet projects.” The move would be drastic, but hardly unforeseen; RIM shipped 500,000 PlayBook tablets in the slate’s launch quarter, and only 200,000 more during its first full quarter of availability. Multiple analysts have anticipated the PlayBook’s demise, and it appears as though they may have been right. RIM did not immediately respond to a request for comment.


http://www.bgr.com/2011/09/29/rim-reportedly-bails-on-playbook-considers-exiting-tablet-market/


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 29, 2011)

Well didn't see that coming, not! Ah well more market share for Microsoft and Amazon then...


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## pinkmonkey (Oct 3, 2011)

They're slashing prices in the US too - as low as $299.  I saw a playbook for the first time this week and it looked small and crap next to the Samsung tablet in the store.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 3, 2011)

Another one bites the dust...


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## paolo (Oct 3, 2011)

RIM are fucked.

They are the Novell Netware of a new era of phones. Convinced, by their historic success in corporates, that they were unassailable, mistaking momentum for being on the ball.

Their one remaining 'market' that's holding is teenagers and developing countries. It's Nokia all over again. Except that the last two people at the disco - the Finns and Microsoft - have already left.


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## editor (Oct 3, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Their one remaining 'market' that's holding is teenagers and developing countries. It's Nokia all over again.


I wouldn't invest in them, but it's worth noting that Blackberry still hold a _bigger share of the smartphone market than Apple_ in the UK, although that's likely to disappear after the iPhone 4GS/5/whatever gets released.


> The latest data from Kantar Worldpanel ComTech shows that Android holds a 48.3% share of the GB smartphone market, followed by BlackBerry (21.2%) and Apple (20.8%). Symbian trails behind with 6.7%, then Windows Mobile 7 with 1.6% and Bada with 0.7%.
> http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/News/12812/O2_expected_to_benefit_the_most_from_new_iPhone_5.aspx


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## paolo (Oct 3, 2011)

It's the relative shares that are telling.

The numbers I last looked at showed a massive gain for Android, and a massive drop for RIM and Nokia. Apple were relatively flat.

My prediction is that Android will continue to grow, Apple will retard slightly, and that RIM and Nokia 'old' platforms will implode. Windows Phone won't get to 10% in two years.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 3, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> RIM are fucked.
> 
> They are the Novell Netware of a new era of phones. Convinced, by their historic success in corporates, that they were unassailable, mistaking momentum for being on the ball.
> 
> Their one remaining 'market' that's holding is teenagers and developing countries. It's Nokia all over again. Except that the last two people at the disco - the Finns and Microsoft - have already left.



Yup royally fucked. Wonder which patent king will snap them up?


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## editor (Oct 3, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Windows Phone won't get to 10% in two years.


You sure about that?

http://wmpoweruser.com/44-of-curren...martphone-owners-considering-windows-phone-7/
http://wmpoweruser.com/digitimes-windows-phone-7-market-share-to-grow-to-5-in-q4-2011/


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## paolo (Oct 3, 2011)

editor said:


> You sure about that?
> 
> http://wmpoweruser.com/44-of-curren...martphone-owners-considering-windows-phone-7/
> http://wmpoweruser.com/digitimes-windows-phone-7-market-share-to-grow-to-5-in-q4-2011/



I've nailed my colours to the mast.

When I asked you, you were all "I'd like to think... Too early to tell" waffle.

Go on, make a prediction,


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## editor (Oct 4, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Go on, make a prediction,


I already did.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 4, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> I've nailed my colours to the mast.
> 
> When I asked you, you were all "I'd like to think... Too early to tell" waffle.
> 
> Go on, make a prediction,



WinMo will beat Android within four years.


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## paolo (Oct 4, 2011)

editor said:


> I already did.



I must have missed it. Linky?


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## paolo (Oct 4, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> WinMo will beat Android within four years.



You are fully mental, but at least you've not fudged your answer.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> I must have missed it. Linky?


 Unbelievably, I posted it in the thread all about... Windows Mobile.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ruddy-great-video.281048/page-2#post-10507137


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## paolo (Oct 4, 2011)

I didn't see that post.

Care to be more specific than "a couple of years or so".

How about, calling it for two years from now? Just for fun. 

Shipment, sell-through or installed base?
Averaged over the previous four quarter seems fair.

Shipment = Leaves manufacturer, regardless of take up.
Sell through = Punters buy units.
Installed base = Punters with units regardless of when purchased.

You nominate the rules!


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## editor (Oct 4, 2011)

I bet you a tenner that the smartphone market share of WM will be 10% or more in two years from now.


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## paolo (Oct 4, 2011)

editor said:


> I bet you a tenner that the smartphone market share of WM will be 10% or more in two years from now.



Ok, we're nearly on. 

Shipment, sell through, or installed base?

I'm an ex product manager, I know how to be selective about sales figures to look good. So I'm being fair here.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Shipment, sell through, or installed base?
> 
> I'm an ex product manager, I know how to be selective about sales figures to look good. So I'm being fair here.


It'll be way over ten per cent anyway so whatever.


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## paolo (Oct 4, 2011)

I'll offer my 10% max as being sell through, based on four quarter average.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> I'll offer my 10% max as being sell through, based on four quarter average.


What the fuck is this wriggly gibberish? I'll take the ten per cent figure from any establish stats research company (like Gartner) when they release their mobile OS quarterly market share at the end of the two years. Simple.


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## elbows (Oct 4, 2011)

Why not go the whole hog and break it down into hideous marketing lifestyle demographics?

Windows 7 phone will be favoured by hip experientialists with a passion for conservation, especially if their wardrobe contains above-average levels of beige. Square is the new hip, as reflected in Microsofts UI design, which in time will be complimented by a new kind of curve that isn't curved, but is to those in the know.

Middle-income stay at home bleat-rearers in the top percentile or two of trifle-sniffers will favour the Snuckleberry, and should enable substantial growth of this platform in emerging snarkets. Especially if their postcode reveals an above-average quantity of Daily Hate readers.

AAA Riot-achievers will flock to buy the low-end Jismic Warrior line of unmuggable invisiphones, especially considering this demographics natural tendency towards platforms that support beer-goggle browsing modes. The relationship-salvaging dickofself-auto-censoring mode, along with the powerful pay-as-you-ride romantic auto-complete feature may also increase market share.


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## paolo (Oct 4, 2011)

Experian Mosaic demographics is what you're looking for.

There's a whole master category for the likes of urbanites. It's called 'Liberal Opinions', and it has sub categories relating to University sorts et al. The Experian name is just something they've conjured up. When you look at the sub categories and geographic distribution, you'd probably just say 'Lefties'.

(Lefty and proud, btw  )


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## paolo (Oct 4, 2011)

editor said:


> What the fuck is this wriggly gibberish? I'll take the ten per cent figure from any establish stats research company (like Gartner) when they release their mobile OS quarterly market share at the end of the two years. Simple.



Gartner know what sell through is.

So we'll use Gartner sell through figures.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 4, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> You are fully mental, but at least you've not fudged your answer.



I just fancied a stab in the dark for teh lulz.


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## paolo (Oct 4, 2011)

Now a brief lesson in sales figures.

Shipments: These are the most misleading. It reflects 'channel' confidence not always that of consumers. At it's worst extreme, there's something called 'channel stuffing'. This is where you incentivise/bully your downstream to take stock of stuff that you assume they will have to find a way of offloading. I worked for several major software companies about 10 years ago and they internally outlawed shipments as a success measure.

Installed base: This flatters the established, and denigrates the newcomers. It's a snapshot. If you're Lewis Hamilton, in the lead, you're "winning" on this basis. But if Lewis is being closed on lap by lap, this snapshot is entirely misleading. Our man is, in time, about to be eclipsed.

Sell through: Real person buys your product. Not a distributor or a dealer. There are further refinements on this. Does someone buy something by default (or get given it?). The newspaper industry measures 'bulks' (giveaways) seperatley from paid, because they don't represent the same commitment to the product.

In the industry I worked in (major label software) shipments were quickly abandoned as a measure. Installed base was a comfort blanket (if you were doing well with that). The only thing that really counted was sell-through.

(Footnote: Industry terms evolve. Look out for "Sell-in" (shipments) and "Sell-out" (sell through).)


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## editor (Oct 4, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> So we'll use Gartner sell through figures.


I can sense the panic in your eyes as you're already realising the foolhardiness of your bet, but the installed base percentage in two years time will do nicely for me, thanks.

I say it will be ten per cent or above.


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## paolo (Oct 4, 2011)

editor said:


> I can sense the panic in your eyes



WTF?


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## editor (Oct 4, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> WTF?


All this waffle over a straightforward bet tells me one thing: you're already trying to devise a 'wriggle strategy' based on statistical mumbo jumbo.


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## paolo (Oct 4, 2011)

editor said:


> statistical mumbo jumbo.



"so called experts"


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## editor (Oct 4, 2011)

*wonders what drinks to buy with paolo999's bet money.


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## paolo (Oct 4, 2011)

Sure. I may lose. I may not. 

Installed base, sub 10%, 2 years from now.


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## ExtraRefined (Oct 4, 2011)

editor said:


> All this waffle over a straightforward bet tells me one thing: you're already trying to devise a 'wriggle strategy' based on statistical mumbo jumbo.



You've actually made your side of the bet much harder to win by taking installed base rather than sell-through


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## editor (Oct 4, 2011)

ExtraRefined said:


> You've actually made your side of the bet much harder to win by taking installed base rather than sell-through


Fine by me. I like my bets to be straightforward.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2011)

Incredibly, BlackBerry loyalty tops all other smartphone brands in U.K
http://www.bgr.com/2011/10/04/blackberry-loyalty-tops-all-other-smartphone-brands-in-u-k/


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## pinkmonkey (Oct 4, 2011)

editor said:


> Incredibly, BlackBerry loyalty tops all other smartphone brands in U.K
> http://www.bgr.com/2011/10/04/blackberry-loyalty-tops-all-other-smartphone-brands-in-u-k/


Is it incredible though? I only gave mine up (I had 3 blackberrys in a row) because the browser was shit. I miss Blackberry for email, you can't beat it and I hate typing on touch screens, much faster on a keyboard. If you want to type messages, I still think you can't beat Blackberry. Even people I know who work for cool companies (got a mate at Frog design) have Blackberrys for work purposes.


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 5, 2011)

The blackberry browser is vastl


pinkmonkey said:


> Is it incredible though? I only gave mine up (I had 3 blackberrys in a row) because the browser was shit. I miss Blackberry for email, you can't beat it and I hate typing on touch screens, much faster on a keyboard. If you want to type messages, I still think you can't beat Blackberry. Even people I know who work for cool companies (got a mate at Frog design) have Blackberrys for work purposes.



The Blackberry browser is fine on the new phones. This is a good all-round review of the one I'm getting, when Orange finally release it:


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