# Should I email this potential client to tell him to fuck off politely?



## trashpony (May 10, 2012)

I'm self-employed and today I had a meeting with a potential new client. He made a huge fuss about my day rate (which isn't outrageous - I know what other people charge) and managed to beat me down to half what I normally charge - mainly because I'm shit at negotiating but also because he kept saying stuff like 'is that the best you can do? Shall we just stop the meeting now?' and I felt like I couldn't walk out because it seemed really rude and weird. As the meeting went on, I became more and more uncomfortable. Not just because of the money but because he had Client From Hell written all over him because of his expectations. 

But I'm freelance and I've never told a client thanks but no thanks before.

He said he'd get back to me one way or the other by the end of the day but I've heard nothing and tbh I'm really hoping he's given the job to one of the (many other, much cheaper) alternatives that, according to him, he has lined up.

I was thinking of emailing him to say that I haven't heard so that I'm assuming he's decided to give the work to someone else and that if not, I've had an offer of work from another client who will pay my full day rate so I've decided to take that project instead.

What do you reckon? Career suicide? It's a very small company if that makes any difference


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## bluestreak (May 10, 2012)

i reckon that you should trust your instincts.  you're a freelancer and don't need an excuse to not do a job.  he's a class a bullshitter trying to get a good job done cheaper through belittling and bullying tactics.  fuck him off completely.


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## Sweet FA (May 10, 2012)

trashpony said:


> made a huge fuss about my day rate ...beat me down to half what I normally charge...rude and weird...I became more and more uncomfortable...he had Client From Hell written all over him...


If you can afford to, fuck him right off.


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## Glitter (May 10, 2012)

What bluestreak said.

Tell him you've got someone else willing to pay the daily rate. Then if he comes back to you charge him more. 

Cunt tax.


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## killer b (May 10, 2012)

yeah, tell him to do one. not as if you'll be desparate for repeat business from the cunt is it?


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## beesonthewhatnow (May 10, 2012)

Walk away. If you're good at what you do there will always be other clients willing to pay what you're worth.


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## weltweit (May 10, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Walk away. If you're good at what you do there will always be other clients willing to pay what you're worth.


I agree


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## BigTom (May 10, 2012)

Shit clients aren't worth having unless they are paying you more than standard. Email him saying you've got other work from someone who is paying a proper rate.

e2a: some shit clients aren't worth having whatever they pay.


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## Pickman's model (May 10, 2012)

trust your instincts and do his knees and elbows.


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## trashpony (May 10, 2012)

Thanks all 

I wish I'd had the balls to tell him to do one at the meeting but I was so bloody shocked at how aggressive he was, I didn't quite know what to do. Usually, it's 'okay fine' or 'we were thinking about X, how does that sound?'
Not 'well that's X higher than this other person. Do you want this work or not?'


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## equationgirl (May 10, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I'm self-employed and today I had a meeting with a potential new client. He made a huge fuss about my day rate (which isn't outrageous - I know what other people charge) and managed to beat me down to half what I normally charge - mainly because I'm shit at negotiating but also because he kept saying stuff like 'is that the best you can do? Shall we just stop the meeting now?' and I felt like I couldn't walk out because it seemed really rude and weird. As the meeting went on, I became more and more uncomfortable. Not just because of the money but because he had Client From Hell written all over him because of his expectations.
> 
> But I'm freelance and I've never told a client thanks but no thanks before.
> 
> ...


 
This client will be difficult if you take him on. He will quibble about everything, and not pay your bills - and I mean never as opposed to a bit late. He'll phone you at all hours and demand your attention over the smallest things. He will complain and moan and claim your work is never good enough and too expensive. The stress will eat into your life.

Avoid like the plague - email him in the morning saying what you said above. Next time, know how much of a discount you are prepared to give on your day rate - for example, if your day rate is £400 and a prospective client says they're looking for £300, say you're happy to give that rate for long term contracts (6 months min) - especially if you know you're at the lower end of the range in the industry. And put your rates up a bit


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## temper_tantrum (May 10, 2012)

Avoid avoid avoid.
The good thing about freelancing is that it's a two-way appraisal - you're working out if you want to work wih them as much as vice versa. He failed your criteria. I wouldn't even bother contacting him tbh, unless you explicitly said you would. I'd wait for him to contact you, and then sweetly say thanks but no thanks.


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## equationgirl (May 10, 2012)

Plus, if he said he'd get back to you and he hasn't, tough. You have other projects.

Always listen to your instincts - if he's this aggressive at a meeting when you've just met, what will he be like to work with?


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## two sheds (May 10, 2012)

What people have said. And when you put your invoice in he'll delay and delay and probably won't pay it.

He sounds like a real arsehole.


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## trashpony (May 10, 2012)

The stupid thing is that I *know *what my discount rates are.

And the other thing is that he was expecting me to write 60-70 pages of copy in 6 days. Which frankly is never going to fucking happen, unless I write "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy"


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## equationgirl (May 10, 2012)

Ooooh urban in total agreement on thread shocker


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## Voley (May 10, 2012)

I wouldn't even bother inventing another client that's paying full price. Just thank him for his time but say you're not interested.


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## purenarcotic (May 10, 2012)

I'd fuck him off, there will be better jobs.  If somebody wants my dad to do some work on the quick, he expects to be paid more given that he will have to put in a considerable level of work to get it done in the short frame time, certainly not less than his going rate!


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## trashpony (May 10, 2012)

NVP said:


> I wouldn't even bother inventing another client that's paying full price. Just thank him for his time but say you're not interested.


Even though I agreed that I would accept 20p and a fluffy sweet at the meeting?


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## Voley (May 10, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Even though I agreed that I would accept 20p and a fluffy sweet at the meeting?


Ah. You didn't mention fluffy sweets. That's a very different story.


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## equationgirl (May 10, 2012)

trashpony said:


> The stupid thing is that I *know *what my discount rates are.
> 
> And the other thing is that he was expecting me to write 60-70 pages of copy in 6 days. Which frankly is never going to fucking happen, unless I write "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy"


He's having a laugh.

He expects you to do a stupid amount of work in an unreasonably short timeframe for not even the going rate???


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## clicker (May 10, 2012)

His expectations do not match your reality. It won't make good business. Get rid.


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## shakespearegirl (May 10, 2012)

Yep don't bother contacting him, if he gets in touch say you've been booked on a job paying full rate.

People who have resented paying my full rate and bartered me down have always turned out to be total twats. Hence the twat (or cunt) tax, which should be spent on booze, drugs or shoes. It eases the pain somehow.

The amount of times I've heard 'if you work that out to an annual salary it's blah blah outraged'!!!


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## quimcunx (May 10, 2012)

Yes. Wait to see if he contacts you then turn him down.  If you turn him down now he'll say he wasn't interested anyway and put you down again.  He'll probably still do that, like.  

http://www.27bslash6.com/p2p2.html


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## trashpony (May 10, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> He's having a laugh.
> 
> He expects you to do a stupid amount of work in an unreasonably short timeframe for not even the going rate???


He's never used external people before so I don't really think he knows what he's doing. The project I'm supposed to be working on is valued at 2m euros incidentally


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## equationgirl (May 10, 2012)

trashpony said:


> He's never used external people before so I don't really think he knows what he's doing. The project I'm supposed to be working on is valued at 2m euros incidentally


I think he knows exactly what he's doing.


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## Voley (May 10, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> http://www.27bslash6.com/p2p2.html


I bought that bloke's book on the strength of that. This is probably my favourite email reply of all time:


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## trashpony (May 10, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I think he knows exactly what he's doing.


Well, he can pay his peanuts and get monkeys can't he?


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## shakespearegirl (May 10, 2012)

trashpony said:


> He's never used external people before so I don't really think he knows what he's doing. The project I'm supposed to be working on is valued at 2m euros incidentally



'we really need to educate the client on this project' attracts a super twat tax


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## Puddy_Tat (May 10, 2012)

My only doubt would be whether this dickhead warrants the "politely" element expressed in the thread title.

There's absolutely no point in doing work at a loss for the sake of having some work to do.  That business model only leads to going bust.


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## two sheds (May 10, 2012)

Yes the logo he came up with was good, too.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (May 10, 2012)

Politely explain that you are swamped with people prepared to pay the going rate, so you would be unable to do his work for a reduced fee. Wish him luck with his cut-price people and offer to be available when it goes tits up. Seriously do this in a polite way, never shut the door on a potential punter.


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## Citizen66 (May 10, 2012)

My mate who is freelance has people who do this. He fucks them off. And when they come back he raises the price from what they would have got originally. Partly to punish and partly because they'll be trouble so make them pay.


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## Voley (May 10, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Yes the logo he came up with was good, too.


It still makes me laugh whenever I read it. 



> *From:* David Thorne
> *Date:* Tuesday 17 November 2009 5.19pm
> *To: *Simon Edhouse
> *Subject:* Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Logo Design
> ...


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## Greebo (May 10, 2012)

Trashpony, you really do deserve better.


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## neonwilderness (May 10, 2012)

I had this with a potential client recently. When replying to my initial email they started talking about a 'payment plan' before they'd even told me what they were looking for 

I'd go with your gut feeling if it sounds like a load of hassle for not much money. Saying you're tied up with other projects and don't want to commit to something and let them down is always a good one. Sounds like you're doing them a favour while actually just fucking them off


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## spitfire (May 10, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Shit clients aren't worth having unless they are paying you more than standard. Email him saying you've got other work from someone who is paying a proper rate.
> 
> e2a: some shit clients aren't worth having whatever they pay.


 
Absolutely agree, don't let the fucker beat your rate down that much. It's a pisstake. Stick to your guns in future and fuck him off completely. It's tough but has to be done.


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## trashpony (May 10, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Politely explain that you are swamped with people prepared to pay the going rate, so you would be unable to do his work for a reduced fee. Wish him luck with his cut-price people and offer to be available when it goes tits up. Seriously do this in a polite way, never shut the door on a potential punter.


I will absolutely be polite. I will wait until he gets in touch though. He promised he would get back to me by cob today and I think at 9pm, that time is long past. So now I can well and truly take the moral high ground. Of course, I may never hear from him again and if that happens, I don't think I'll bother to contact him.


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## claphamboy (May 10, 2012)

Sorry, just about to log-off as the OH is due home, so not read the whole thread.

I am experienced in self-employment and running small businesses, and I have a gut feeling about this client from the OP.

As the old saying goes, 'there's always one', and this sounds like 'one', walk away and don't look back!


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## Santino (May 10, 2012)

If you did the work, he would later decide not to use it and then use that as justification for not paying you.


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## pinkmonkey (May 10, 2012)

Ok after 9 years of freelance, here is my input.  If you take him on he will wrangle and niggle over every single thing.  Chances are he wont pay you at the end of the project. 
 Never, ever let people beat you down on rates, because if you do, its like you're saying to them, 'I'm not worth it,' and they'll treat you like you're shit.
IME there are some who will pay whatever you ask, and some who moan and complain.  If you can live without it, never work with the latter, they are bad for your trade.
One of the hardest things about freelance is learning to turn work down, to walk away. One usually learns the hard way that these types are bad clients.

Finally you should read this http://shouldiworkforfree.com/


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## pinkmonkey (May 10, 2012)

Your relationship with a client can only work if it's a two- way thing based on mutual respect.  Its almost like dating, seriously.


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## Citizen66 (May 10, 2012)

Just tell him your rates are non negotiable unless he's putting in excess of <insert generous figure> worth of work your way.


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## claphamboy (May 10, 2012)

Just to add, a line I used once was something like this...

'Seriously? Well, OK, I understand you are a busy man, and time is money, but money is clearly tight around here, so I'll not waste any more of your time." 

I walked out.

I forgot about him, until about 6 months later when the local rag run a story on his business going belly-up.


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## trashpony (May 10, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> Your relationship with a client can only work if it's a two- way thing based on mutual respect. Its almost like dating, seriously.


Yes, I agree. After 18 months of doing this, it's definitely the way it feels. Because I work with (mainly) massive companies though, I generally love the people who initially hire me. Their internal clients are the arseholes. When the initial person is a wanker, it doesn't bode well.

I feel so much happier now I've decided to sack him off - I felt fucking awful when I left the meeting today.


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## Citizen66 (May 10, 2012)

Live and learn innit. Next time someone says "price down or you better leave now" just politely agree and exit the room.


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## trashpony (May 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Live and learn innit. Next time someone says "price down or you better leave now" just politely agree and exit the room.


I will. And I will feel good about it too


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## bemused (May 10, 2012)

I have an idiom all of my own for situations like this which has been proved time and time again - half the pay, twice the grief.


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## trashpony (May 10, 2012)

I do actually charge one of my clients half my normal day rate which is why I think I sort of agreed to it. But a) they're public sector and b) I have a contract for 9 months' work with them.

I wouldn't dream of charging a private sector client that day rate for a one off project. And yet I agreed! There are not enough  in the world for what a sap I was today. But I am learning. At a rather advanced age, it must be said


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## Citizen66 (May 10, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I will. And I will feel good about it too


 
and you could add a snotty parting shot like, "you shouldn't have wasted my time if you knew you couldn't afford the rates."


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## pinkmonkey (May 10, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I do actually charge one of my clients half my normal day rate which is why I think I sort of agreed to it. But a) they're public sector and b) I have a contract for 9 months' work with them.
> 
> I wouldn't dream of charging a private sector client that day rate for a one off project. And yet I agreed! There are not enough  in the world for what a sap I was today. But I am learning. At a rather advanced age, it must be said



I do some free and reduced rates stuff, (charity and some education stuff) you have to set your own rules.


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## Dan U (May 10, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Politely explain that you are swamped with people prepared to pay the going rate, so you would be unable to do his work for a reduced fee. Wish him luck with his cut-price people and offer to be available when it goes tits up. Seriously do this in a polite way, never shut the door on a potential punter.



This

I am a bit late to this thread but I am freelance and turn down work, either due to people wanting to pay silly day rates or more generally due to being busy. 

I always keep people sweet and on one occasion the person who took the cheap option was back to me 3 months later to sort out the mess that was left.


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## equationgirl (May 10, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> I do some free and reduced rates stuff, (charity and some education stuff) you have to set your own rules.


I see nothing wrong with having different rates for public and private sector clients, many contractors do.

As for feeling awful today, try not to - you did nothing wrong. He did.


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## Firky (May 10, 2012)

Going out on a hunch here... but I bet he wouldn't have behaved like that if you were a bloke. The shit.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 10, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I do actually charge one of my clients half my normal day rate which is why I think I sort of agreed to it. But a) they're public sector and b) I have a contract for 9 months' work with them.


 
Slightly variable rates to reflect the potential risk and hassle factors, the chances of the organisation going pop, the level of competition for this work, and how much you want this work (e.g. future benefits somewhere - without getting too much into 'loss leader' territory) seems quite reasonable.

As is recognising some economy of scale with a long term arrangement (i.e. lower proportion of time doing the sales pitch and such.)

A public sector body may not be the fastest in paying invoices (although with private sector, slow payment tends to be policy rather than sheer inertia) but is less likely to go bust...


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## pinkmonkey (May 11, 2012)

Dan U said:


> This
> lways keep people sweet and on one occasion the person who took the cheap option was back to me 3 months later to sort out the mess that was left.


 
Yes we have quite a few noobs to freelance in my trade atm who must be charging very low rates from their reaction to the estimates that I've sent to clients who work with them.

They will find out the hard way that -
Over a year it could work out at less than minimum wage - i.e. you can't live on it.
The low paid work will get in the way of clients that can pay a decent rate.

If anyone questions our rate compared to someone elses rate, our answer is, 'if you pay £xxx you get us, if you pay £xxx you get them. That's our rate.'


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## sumimasen (May 11, 2012)

I would politely email him saying thanks but no thanks, I've committed to another project.  I wouldn't just leave it, I'd need that momentary closure as compensation for meeting such a prick!


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## Corax (May 11, 2012)

firky said:
			
		

> Going out on a hunch here... but I bet he wouldn't have behaved like that if you were a bloke. The shit.



Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'm a bloke and I've been in plenty of meetings like that when I was a contract negotiator. It's old-skool negotiation tactics, and the reason it's old skool is because it's not a very good way of starting a working relationship. So if it's any consolation he probably gets laughed at quite a lot. 

Trashy, have you considered taking a one or two day negotiation skills course? Whilst none of it's rocket surgery, you might pick up some useful techniques. And if you're self employed, it could be a worthwhile investment.


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## two sheds (May 11, 2012)

I'm not shure a negotiation skills course would have done any good here. He's not the sort of person you'd ever want to work for even if you'd negotiated up to your top rate. Leaving aside everything else, I wouldn't want to work for someone who made me feel that bad after a meeting with him.


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## Voley (May 11, 2012)

I went on a negotiation skills course once. I think I must've got the wrong end of the stick because I came out of every meeting after that thinking I'd just got a 'win/win' outcome when, in reality, I'd been fucked over.  Learning to haggle abroad taught me a lot more.


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## danny la rouge (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> But I'm freelance and I've never told a client thanks but no thanks before.


Obviously that a hard thing to do, because you're thinking having a client is better than no work. I'm self employed, and actually some clients are worse than no work.  He sounds like one of those.   Remember how you feel now next time you meet one of these people.  You'll know next time.  And you'll find it far easier to tell them it doesn't sound like you'd be right for each other.


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## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

I've been on negotiation skills courses.  I can do it in theory, just not in practice. Actually, that's not really true. I just wasn't expecting it because usually people are, like you say, a bit smarter at how they frame the opening of a potential relationship.


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## Pickman's model (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I've been on negotiation skills courses.  I can do it in theory, just not in practice. Actually, that's not really true. I just wasn't expecting it because usually people are, like you say, a bit smarter at how they frame the opening of a potential relationship.


drop concrete blocks on knees and elbows and their hearts and minds might not follow but they'll get the drift of your argument


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## danny la rouge (May 11, 2012)

Have you ever watched Four Rooms on channel 4? The programme where people have art objects to sell, and four potential buyers. One of the buyers is a cunt. The big guy with the scarf. He does all these bully and baffle tactics. I'd walk out on him straight away, even if he was my last chance to sell. But some of them are drawn in like he's magnet. He gets some to agree to flip a coin between two deals - always a bad one and a terrible one. And they go for it! I don't know how they get entangled in his bullshit. It screams "YOU DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME - I'M AN UTTER WANKER!"

Anyway. Maybe I err the other way.


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## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

danny la rouge said:


> Have you ever watched Four Rooms on channel 4? The programme where people have art objects to sell, and for potential buyers. One of the buyers is a cunt. The big guy with the scarf. He does all these bully and baffle tactics. I'd walk out on him straight away, even if he was my last chance to sell. But some of them are drawn in like he's magnet. He gets some to agree to flip a coin between two deals - always a bad one and a terrible one. And they go for it! I don't know how they get entangled in his bullshit. It screams "YOU DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME - I'M AN UTTER WANKER!"
> 
> Anyway. Maybe I err the other way.


No I haven't but perhaps I should, see if I can spot him! The other thing I've realised is that, generally, my initial meetings with clients are 90% about how they approach projects, their expectations of me and my experience, how I work etc and 10% about money. Yesterday the balance was entirely the other way


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## Pickman's model (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> No I haven't but perhaps I should, see if I can spot him! The other thing I've realised is that, generally, my initial meetings with clients are 90% about how they approach projects, their expectations of me and my experience, how I work etc and 10% about money. Yesterday the balance was entirely the other way


i wouldn't be too greatly concerned about being polite.


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## danny la rouge (May 11, 2012)

> No I haven't but perhaps I should, see if I can spot him! The other thing I've realised is that, generally, my initial meetings with clients are 90% about how they approach projects, their expectations of me and my experience, how I work etc and 10% about money. Yesterday the balance was entirely the other way


 
Interesting. That probably says a lot, doesn't it?


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## danny la rouge (May 11, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i wouldn't be too greatly concerned about being polite.


And in this particular circumstance?


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## two sheds (May 11, 2012)

I'm tempted to ask for his e-mail address so that I can apply for the work, be reluctantly beaten down on price and then say 'I'd love to do the work, please send it through to me' and see how long I could extend the deadline before he gives up.


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## Pingu (May 11, 2012)

Sweet FA said:


> If you can afford to, fuck him right off.


 
this.

it sets a precident for any future work.


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## Greebo (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> <snip>The other thing I've realised is that, generally, my initial meetings with clients are 90% about how they approach projects, their expectations of me and my experience, how I work etc and 10% about money. Yesterday the balance was entirely the other way


You'll recognise the type next time, it's all good.


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## Greebo (May 11, 2012)

two sheds said:


> I'm tempted to ask for his e-mail address so that I can apply for the work, be reluctantly beaten down on price and then say 'I'd love to do the work, please send it through to me' and see how long I could extend the deadline before he gives up.


Nice one!  <VEG>


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## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

They have precisely two working weeks before the thing has to be submitted. Good luck with that


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## Teaboy (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I'm self-employed and today I had a meeting with a potential new client. He made a huge fuss about my day rate (which isn't outrageous - I know what other people charge) and managed to beat me down to half what I normally charge - mainly because I'm shit at negotiating but also because he kept saying stuff like 'is that the best you can do? Shall we just stop the meeting now?' and I felt like I couldn't walk out because it seemed really rude and weird. As the meeting went on, I became more and more uncomfortable. Not just because of the money but because he had Client From Hell written all over him because of his expectations.
> 
> But I'm freelance and I've never told a client thanks but no thanks before.
> 
> ...


 
This will lead to a very one sided business arrangement, the relationship between client and supplier should be an equal one, you'll be getting off on a bad footing and I agree that it sounds like a potential nightmare.

There is nothing wrong with walking away, just simply say you've had a chance to look at the calculations again and the deal is not financially viable. They'll probably be a shit payer as well.

As an old american manager of mine once told me (apologies for the corporate horse shit) "Sometimes in business you have to kneel down but I'm fucked if I'm going to bend over for anyone".

If you can, walk away.


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## Teaboy (May 11, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i wouldn't be too greatly concerned about being polite.


 
I would, he'll know other people in the industry. Always be polite, always be professional never indulge in petty point scoring.  Never let business become personal.


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## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

I will be polite, not least because I was recommended by someone I used to work with who now works with nobber. And because it's a small world


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## what (May 11, 2012)

Trashy. It dosen't sound like you need this one but if you really do need it make sure you start to level up the playing field and play him at his own game. I'd start by completely changing your terms and conditions to suit you.
I have a friend who for certain clients only works cash in advance (if a large job then in stages). If its a short timescale then BACS transfer of the cash should be much better than cheque as cheques can be easily cancelled (not sure about BACS being cancelled would be worth seeking advise). Make sure all changes are charged at a ridiculous rate (and paid in advance), any postage and packaging could get very expensive etc etc I am sure you get the idea.
What ever you do don't deliver the final work until you have cash cleared.


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## FabricLiveBaby! (May 11, 2012)

Not only does he sound like a complete incompetent bell-end but not getting back to you is fucking rude.

I bet he's delaying his response because some kind of "amazing" psychological tactic, which puts you firmly in your place as "EMPLOYEE TO BE SHAT UPON" and him in his place as "BIG BIG BOSS MAN (uber cunt)". Expect a reply along the lines of: "OK I agree, but you have to get back to me within 30 minutes of this email being sent to confirm otherwise it's off - I'm a very buys man".

Oh, and expect it at the MOST inconvenient time.


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## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Not only does he sound like a complete incompetent bell-end but not getting back to you is fucking rude.
> 
> I bet he's delaying his response because some kind of "amazing" psychological tactic, which puts you firmly in your place as "EMPLOYEE TO BE SHAT UPON" and him in his place as "BIG BIG BOSS MAN (uber cunt)". Expect a reply along the lines of: "OK I agree, but you have to get back to me within 30 minutes of this email being sent to confirm otherwise it's off - I'm a very buys man".
> 
> Oh, and expect it at the MOST inconvenient time.


Oh yes, I'm fairly sure he's trying to make me sweat.

I will report back if/when I hear from him. I've just googled him - he has the most absurd photos of himself online. He thinks he's vv good looking clearly


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## FabricLiveBaby! (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I've just googled him - he has the most absurd photos of himself online. He thinks he's vv good looking clearly


 
Oh please post one up here!  Photoshop anyone?


----------



## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Oh please post one up here! Photoshop anyone?




I'll have to d/l it and resave it under another name ...


----------



## JimW (May 11, 2012)

I freelance too, trashpony and get a lot of similar shit. Did a long book over the winter and now have a small sum of money in the bank; not much by anyone's standards but will pay the rent for a while so am now enjoying saying no to all sorts of shit job offers. Current bit of work is both in short easy-to-handle chunks, interesting and half as much again as I usually charge as a result!


----------



## Greebo (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Oh yes, I'm fairly sure he's trying to make me sweat.<snip> I've just googled him - he has the most absurd photos of himself online. He thinks he's vv good looking clearly


How utterly unexpected


----------



## Mephitic (May 11, 2012)

Corax said:


> Snip *
> 
> Trashy, have you considered taking a one or two day negotiation skills course? Whilst none of it's rocket surgery, you might pick up some useful techniques. And if you're self employed, it could be a worthwhile investment.


 
This = Rather Good Advice.


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 11, 2012)

I've ended up with a knobber client today! If I agree to budget something one way (against the deliverables list the client supplied), why are you surprised when I tell you I can't budget it against two different deliverables lists in the same amount of time!


----------



## Teaboy (May 11, 2012)

shakespearegirl said:


> I've ended up with a knobber client today! If I agree to budget something one way (against the deliverables list the client supplied), why are you surprised when I tell you I can't budget it against two different deliverables lists in the same amount of time!


 
They're not surprised, its an act, its all part of the 'game'.    Companies spend vast amounts of money on courses for their sales teams whilst at the same time spending money on courses for the purchasing teams to counter-act sales staff from other companies.  Its one big merry-go-round of fun.


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 11, 2012)

I don't think they are that calculated to be fair, just fucking stupid and not prepared to listen to what they don't want to hear. I've already budgeted this a number of ways and won't be available to do the job if they actually win it, totally unmotivated to work today.


----------



## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

Sorry, I was 'liking' your post in solidarity, not liking that it happened to you.

Still not heard anything from Mr Wanker.

Here's a pic of him (temporarily)
<gone>


----------



## Mrs Magpie (May 11, 2012)




----------



## shakespearegirl (May 11, 2012)

Oh what a tosser.


----------



## quimcunx (May 11, 2012)

Well he looks quite good-looking in that pic.   Full of himself, though.


----------



## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Well he looks quite good-looking in that pic. Full of himself, though.


He is quite good looking. But the tosser personality totally undermines it


----------



## Red Cat (May 11, 2012)

*points finger and laughs very loudly*


----------



## Greebo (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Sorry, I was 'liking' your post in solidarity, not liking that it happened to you.
> 
> Still not heard anything from Mr Wanker.
> 
> Here's a pic of him (temporarily)<snip>


I can feel an irfanview moment coming on...  <VEG>


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 11, 2012)

They still haven't got back to me to confirm which route is the priority to budget in the one day I have available. Tossers


----------



## Red Cat (May 11, 2012)

Is he? Good looking? Can't stand that look myself, looks like a right knob.


----------



## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> Is he? Good looking? Can't stand that look myself, looks like a right knob.


In a generally accepted way of what is considered to be attractive in Western society but no, I can't stand that look either


----------



## Teaboy (May 11, 2012)

If you can tell anything from a picture he looks like he's Mr small business empire.


----------



## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

Still not heard anything. I'm getting really cross that he's sacking me off before I got the chance to sack him off  

Perhaps he's an urb


----------



## TitanSound (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Still not heard anything. I'm getting really cross that he's sacking me off before I got the chance to sack him off


 
I don't think I've ever seen a post that could be misconstrued by accident as much as this one


----------



## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

TitanSound said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a post that could be misconstrued by accident as much as this one


Bleugh  That's made me feel quite queasy


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 11, 2012)

TitanSound said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a post that could be misconstrued by accident as much as this one


 
I am glad I got my new glasses yesterday...


----------



## JimW (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Still not heard anything. I'm getting really cross that he's sacking me off before I got the chance to sack him off
> 
> Perhaps he's an urb


If he's true to form, he's just waiting until the deadline is a complete farce before wanting it yesterday.


----------



## _angel_ (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> The stupid thing is that I *know *what my discount rates are.
> 
> And the other thing is that he was expecting me to write 60-70 pages of copy in 6 days. Which frankly is never going to fucking happen, unless I write "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy"


That sounds like a typical demand from an Elance job. And paying about 20p for the entire job. Yet you will get people bidding to do it and even then the employers are too tight to even award the job for what they promised.


----------



## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> That sounds like a typical demand from an Elance job. And paying about 20p for the entire job. Yet you will get people bidding to do it and even then the employers are too tight to even award the job for what they promised.


I used to be on People per Hour and that was all a load of twats wanting 80 page documents written for £50 and I'd see people bidding on those. Fools


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I'm self-employed and today I had a meeting with a potential new client. He made a huge fuss about my day rate (which isn't outrageous - I know what other people charge) and managed to beat me down to half what I normally charge - mainly because I'm shit at negotiating but also because he kept saying stuff like 'is that the best you can do? Shall we just stop the meeting now?' and I felt like I couldn't walk out because it seemed really rude and weird. As the meeting went on, I became more and more uncomfortable. Not just because of the money but because he had Client From Hell written all over him because of his expectations.
> 
> But I'm freelance and I've never told a client thanks but no thanks before.
> 
> ...


 
Fuck him off. He thinks he's Alan Sugar and a Moroccan _souk_ vendor rolled into one, and you should *never* compromise on your day-rate if it's within industry norms, because then *every* cunt will be after a piece of cut-price work, which would send a small company to the wall *and* depress the local rates. If he's got cheaper alternatives that exist outside of his feeble imagination, then by all means let him use them, and if you're worried about turning away work, let me ask you one simple question: Would working for such an arse-face be worth the aggro, given that the aggro comes with a reduced day-rate and, undoubtedly, lots of badgering by this gobshite?


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (May 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck him off. He thinks he's Alan Sugar and a Moroccan _souk_ vendor rolled into one.


 
Ha! Brilliant!

I can't stand that twunt Sugar. My mum had a dinner party about a year back and invited one of her mates and her husband. The husband is some sort of inventor and was thought Alan Sugar was AMAZING, and pretty much wanted to be just like him.  He said he's invented load of really cool science equipment for lab work. I told him if he wanted to be like Alan Sugar he should endeavour to "sell toot to arseholes" and lower the bar a little.

I think he was really offended.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Even though I agreed that I would accept 20p and a fluffy sweet at the meeting?


 
Any verbal contract you agreed includes the proviso that he contact you the same day. He didn't. You're not breaching a verbal contract because he already has.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 11, 2012)

what said:


> Trashy. It dosen't sound like you need this one but if you really do need it make sure you start to level up the playing field and play him at his own game. I'd start by completely changing your terms and conditions to suit you.
> I have a friend who for certain clients only works cash in advance (if a large job then in stages). If its a short timescale then BACS transfer of the cash should be much better than cheque as cheques can be easily cancelled (not sure about BACS being cancelled would be worth seeking advise). Make sure all changes are charged at a ridiculous rate (and paid in advance), any postage and packaging could get very expensive etc etc I am sure you get the idea.
> What ever you do don't deliver the final work until you have cash cleared.



When my mate deals with a new client who he suspects might be a time waster he often asks for half the cash up front. And, of course, because he's a graphic designer he has them over a barrel when it comes to final payment as they' won't get the graphic correctly sized and without watermark until they've paid. With online stuff he cleverly offers to host stuff so if they drag their heels over money he pulls the plug.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2012)

shakespearegirl said:


> Yep don't bother contacting him, if he gets in touch say you've been booked on a job paying full rate.
> 
> People who have resented paying my full rate and bartered me down have always turned out to be total twats. Hence the twat (or cunt) tax, which should be spent on booze, drugs or shoes. It eases the pain somehow.
> 
> The amount of times I've heard 'if you work that out to an annual salary it's blah blah outraged'!!!


 
Which, if you think for a minute, is an insult to you *and* your trade, because a) they're saying you're not worth the going rate, and that b) they've denigrated your trade anyway by not retaining a full-time member of staff. I hate quibblers.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> My only doubt would be whether this dickhead warrants the "politely" element expressed in the thread title.
> 
> There's absolutely no point in doing work at a loss for the sake of having some work to do. That business model only leads to going bust.


 
And has a knock-on effect for everyone else in the same field.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I do actually charge one of my clients half my normal day rate which is why I think I sort of agreed to it. But a) they're public sector and b) I have a contract for 9 months' work with them.
> 
> I wouldn't dream of charging a private sector client that day rate for a one off project. And yet I agreed! There are not enough  in the world for what a sap I was today. But I am learning. At a rather advanced age, it must be said


 
Don't facepalm yourself too badly. Some business people (usually the inadequate ones) favour the "steamroller" approach, and while it has (marginal) utility with retained staff (marginal because staff retention is usually a problem), it is *not* the right way to negotiate a client/contractor relationship. I suspect that you were so flummoxed by this aggressive twat, you'd have agreed to assassinate the queen of Sheba for a Gregg's Sausage Roll (cold) if it'd got you out of the room faster!


----------



## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

Thanks all. You've all made me feel loads better 

And now I'm going camping


----------



## Santino (May 11, 2012)

I need closure on this story.


----------



## trashpony (May 11, 2012)

Santino said:


> I need closure on this story.


So do I


----------



## two sheds (May 11, 2012)

Decide you had a lucky escape and if he doesn't contact you then you certainly aren't contacting him, go camping and next week look for a proper workgiver


----------



## quimcunx (May 11, 2012)

phone him up by accident!  ''Oh, how embarrassing!  I was trying to phone a lovely fee-paying client of mine and was laughing to myself at your pathetic negotiating style and must have dialled your number by mistake.''


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which, if you think for a minute, is an insult to you *and* your trade, because a) they're saying you're not worth the going rate, and that b) they've denigrated your trade anyway by not retaining a full-time member of staff. I hate quibblers.


 
I can understand them not having staff as what I do is fairly specialised and project based. But, arguing about my rate and then not taking my advice really pisses me off.

I was questioning a recent clients charge out rates for freelancers (double the day rate and then add 30%) and this client spent ages arguing with me and saying well we'll just beat freelancers rates down. Just wouldn't listen when I told her all the good people don't do deals and are busy on the Olympics. Well fuck em, they'll have to sort it as I'm too busy to do their job..


----------



## two sheds (May 11, 2012)

shakespearegirl said:


> I all the good people don't do deals and are busy on the Olympics.


 
No I'm not .


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 11, 2012)

two sheds said:


> No I'm not .


 
I'm happy to recommend you if you want! What animation packages can you use?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 11, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> I would, he'll know other people in the industry. Always be polite, always be professional never indulge in petty point scoring. Never let business become personal.


yeh? i think he'll probably have quite a reputation in the industry and people likely know what he's like. in any event, there are ways to be rude without effing and blinding and while ostensibly being quite polite.


----------



## Corax (May 11, 2012)

Call him to let him know that you've had an offer for a substantial job of work for [whatever you agreed+50%].  Even though the decision deadline has gone you felt it was only right to give him the opportunity to match it if he wants to, seeing as you'd already entered discussions.

Might not be a good idea, as I don't know the industry and if he could trash your rep for it.  But if not I'd go for it.  You're *being very honourable* by giving him the opportunity despite a better offer, and you get to charge him cunt tax.


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 11, 2012)

My job is delivered! Wine O'clock!


----------



## Greebo (May 11, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Here's a pic of him (temporarily)
> <gone>


And here's the real picture, or at least it would be, I had a lot of fun drawing on it.  But it seems to have resisted every change made (and saved) on it in irfanview.  Twice.  

Clearly the man is a wrong un.


----------



## two sheds (May 12, 2012)

shakespearegirl said:


> I'm happy to recommend you if you want! What animation packages can you use?


 
I don't really approve of them, I'm more for the traditional approach of the flip-up notebook. If you can send me the brief I'll get you a first concept early next year.


----------



## zoooo (May 12, 2012)

I missed the picture. 

I shall imagine him instead...
Ew, what an ugger.


----------



## free spirit (May 12, 2012)

so, have you sacked this twunt off yet Trashy?


----------



## quimcunx (May 12, 2012)

She's gone camping.     We ALL have to wait until Monday.


----------



## free spirit (May 12, 2012)

oh. how inconsiderate of her.


----------



## quimcunx (May 12, 2012)

I know. 

She doesn't deserve us.


----------



## free spirit (May 12, 2012)

indeed.

maybe she's got one of them fancy interwebphonethingies, but her camp site is out of range and she just didn't consider that possibility when she agreed to go camping before updating this thread. In which case I might consider forgiving her for this oversight.


----------



## quimcunx (May 12, 2012)

You're too soft.


----------



## free spirit (May 12, 2012)

it's one of my failings. I blame the andrex adverts.


----------



## quimcunx (May 12, 2012)

Perhaps you should use a more budget brand to toughen you up a bit.


----------



## grit (May 12, 2012)

Good rule of thumb when freelancing is never say no, just triple or quadruple your rate so they have to be the ones to walk away.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Perhaps you should use a more budget brand to toughen you up a bit.


 
I recommend


----------



## quimcunx (May 12, 2012)

(((free spirit's bottom)))


----------



## free spirit (May 12, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> (((free spirit's bottom)))


soft soft soft


----------



## quimcunx (May 12, 2012)

like a baby's?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 13, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Still not heard anything. I'm getting really cross that he's sacking me off before I got the chance to sack him off
> 
> Perhaps he's an urb


 
Try something along these lines.



> Dear <name of wanker>,
> 
> I've decided that I don't need your business. If you can't be bothered getting back to me in a timely manner, I have to assume you probably can't be bothered paying on time either.
> 
> Yours etc.


----------



## pinkmonkey (May 13, 2012)

Fwiw, pople like him never get back to you. They don't even deserve a reply like that one.


----------



## trashpony (May 13, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> Fwiw, pople like him never get back to you. They don't even deserve a reply like that one.


 
Hello! Back from camping (no reception to speak of so no chance to update thread).

Guess what - I've had a reply!



> Many thanks for coming in yesterday.  It was a pleasure meeting you.
> Following on from the discussions we had I can now confirm that we are happy to proceed on the basis of the terms we specified.  More specifically, regarding the daily rate for your work this will be £xxx.
> Blah, blah blah


 
17.02 on Friday evening that arrived, 24 hours later than promised. I don't think he will be expecting my thanks but no thanks email in reply.


----------



## Ms T (May 13, 2012)

I'm so glad you will get the satisfaction of telling him to fuck off - politely, of course.


----------



## clicker (May 13, 2012)

Savour your reply.


----------



## purenarcotic (May 13, 2012)

Hah, enjoy your reply.  What a tosser. 

Hope you had fun camping.


----------



## Glitter (May 13, 2012)

Make sure you tell him you're doing the work for a higher rate.


----------



## trashpony (May 13, 2012)

Had a lovely time camping thanks  Urbanites were on tip top form as ever 

This is what I'm thinking of replying:




> Dear Tosser
> 
> Thank you very much for your email and confirmation that you would like to work with me on your project. Unfortunately, as you didn't get back to me by end of Thursday as you said you would, I assumed you had chosen to work with someone else. I have since accepted some work from an existing client at my usual day rates so I'm afraid I won't be able to help you out on this occasion.
> 
> ...


 
Comments welcome. I have the mother of all hangovers and am very tired so not firing on all cylinders


----------



## Glitter (May 13, 2012)

I would change 'as you said you would' to 'as agreed'.

Otherwise


----------



## Hocus Eye. (May 13, 2012)

Well done Trashy, I do hope the 'Dear Tosser' salutation adequately prevents him from following up the invitation in your final paragraph.


----------



## two sheds (May 13, 2012)

> Dear Tosser


 
Solves the problem of whether to address someone by their forename or surname nicely, I feel.


----------



## quimcunx (May 13, 2012)

No, no, no, trashy! What you're meant to say is ''Thanks for getting back to me! I was worried you'd gone with someone else and if I hadn't been without reception I'd have lowered my rate by Friday lunchtime to secure the job.THANK YOU SOO MUCH for giving me this opportunity to work my arse off for inadequate remuneration. I'll start right away and forget all about getting sleep for the next week''

''especially the day rate'' pff. twat. Doesn't want you dodgy consultants trying to pull a fast one on him by pretending you'd agreed a higher rate half way through. But he's wiser than that. He won't be taken advantage of by you bloodsuckers.

e2a: agree wrt 'agreed'.


----------



## High Voltage (May 13, 2012)

Couldn't you leave replying until . . . Ummm!! say,  Monday after work has finished so he doesn't get it until, Tuesday . . . thus taking a further 2 days out of, what appears to be, a ridiculous deadline

Seeing as you went away for the weekend prior to starting your other project and only got back very very late and stuff

Just a thought


----------



## High Voltage (May 13, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Solves the problem of whether to address someone by their forename or surname nicely, I feel.


 
Traditionally, the correct form of address is "MISTER" Tosser


----------



## grit (May 13, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Had a lovely time camping thanks  Urbanites were on tip top form as ever
> 
> This is what I'm thinking of replying:
> 
> ...


 
Pretty unprofessional, its obvious you are just having a moan, there is no need. It achieves absolutely nothing.

Something more suitable would be.

Dear X,

Apologies, due to the delay in your response, I have been engaged by another client. Regretably this means I'm currently unavailable to provide you with a service.

Regards


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

High Voltage said:


> Couldn't you leave replying until . . . Ummm!! say, Monday after work has finished so he doesn't get it until, Tuesday . . . thus taking a further 2 days out of, what appears to be, a ridiculous deadline
> 
> Seeing as you went away for the weekend prior to starting your other project and only got back very very late and stuff
> 
> Just a thought


You could always pretend his email went into your junk mail folder, after all, your email system is set to recognise junk from tossers like him 

I'd finish it with 'yours sincerely' rather than 'best wishes', but then I'm known for my formal style of writing in my business communications. Agree with 'as agreed'.


----------



## Glitter (May 13, 2012)

grit said:


> Pretty unprofessional, its obvious you are just having a moan, there is no need. It achieves absolutely nothing.
> 
> Something more suitable would be.
> 
> ...


 
I find emails that are spelled correctly appear more professional to be honest.


----------



## grit (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You could always pretend his email went into your junk mail folder, after all, your email system is set to recognise junk from tossers like him
> 
> I'd finish it with 'yours sincerely' rather than 'best wishes', but then I'm known for my formal style of writing in my business communications. Agree with 'as agreed'.


 
"Regards", is the business standard. Yours sincerely and best wishes are bit personal imho.


----------



## grit (May 13, 2012)

Glitter said:


> I find emails that are spelled correctly appear more professional to be honest.


 
Yawn, its a post on a forum. Even with those spelling mistakes it would still be more professional tbh.


----------



## trashpony (May 13, 2012)

grit said:


> Pretty unprofessional, its obvious you are just having a moan, there is no need. It achieves absolutely nothing.
> 
> Something more suitable would be.
> 
> ...


 
Why is it unprofessional to tell him that I've chosen to do a more lucrative assignment rather than the one he is offering?


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

grit said:


> Pretty unprofessional, its obvious you are just having a moan, there is no need. It achieves absolutely nothing.
> 
> Something more suitable would be.
> 
> ...


I diasgree - and this is probably down to different communication styles - but this ^^^^^^ sounds a bit rude, like you can't be arsed actually replying properly.


----------



## grit (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I diasgree - and this is probably down to different communication styles - but this ^^^^^^ sounds a bit rude, like you can't be arsed actually replying properly.


 
Direct and to the point, what a professional communication should be. You are not friends.


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

grit said:


> "Regards", is the business standard. Yours sincerely and best wishes are bit personal imho.


Says who?

Your sincerely is standard for replying to someone whose name is known. Like I said, depends on preferred styles of business communication.


----------



## grit (May 13, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Why is it unprofessional to tell him that I've chosen to do a more lucrative assignment rather than the one he is offering?


 
Its none of his business, you are engaged with someone else, that all he needs to know. Anything else is irrelevant.

dont invite further discussion with him.


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

grit said:


> Direct and to the point, what a professional communication should be. You are not friends.


You can be direct and to the point without appearing rude.


----------



## grit (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You can be direct and to the point without appearing rude.


 
What exactly do you consider to be rude in that message?


----------



## trashpony (May 13, 2012)

grit said:


> What exactly do you consider to be rude in that message?


It's very brusque.

I won't write Best wishes at the end incidentally, nor Dear Tosser at the beginning


----------



## Glitter (May 13, 2012)

grit said:


> Yawn, its a post on a forum. Even with those spelling mistakes it would still be more professional tbh.


 
It wouldn't. Even if you'd managed to get it right.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 13, 2012)

Maybe "as I hadn't heard from you by end of Thursday" would be less confrontational than "as you didn't get back to me"

but otherwise, sounds reasonable


----------



## grit (May 13, 2012)

trashpony said:


> It's very brusque.
> 
> I won't write Best wishes at the end incidentally, nor Dear Tosser at the beginning


 
Brusque is just a synonym for rude, what exactly is rude about it.


----------



## grit (May 13, 2012)

Glitter said:


> It wouldn't. Even if you'd managed to get it right.


 
Why?


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

grit said:


> What exactly do you consider to be rude in that message?


 
To me, the first sentence isn't a proper sentence, and the whole thing reads as though the writer couldn't be bothered to reply but felt obliged to. Just comes across as though the writer can't be bothered. Definitely brusque, as trashy says.


----------



## grit (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> To me, the first sentence isn't a proper sentence, and the whole thing reads as though the writer couldn't be bothered to reply but felt obliged to. Just comes across as though the writer can't be bothered. Definitely brusque, as trashy says.


 
So its just a feeling you have, well there isint much for me to respond to in that case.


----------



## Glitter (May 13, 2012)

Attention to detail aside, yours isn't necessarily less professional. It just isn't more either. 

I don't like the tone, personally, and Trashy's gives the client feedback, which is always useful.


----------



## two sheds (May 13, 2012)

trashpony said:


> nor Dear Tosser at the beginning


----------



## grit (May 13, 2012)

Glitter said:


> Attention to detail aside, yours isn't necessarily less professional. It just isn't more either.
> 
> I don't like the tone, personally, and Trashy's gives the client feedback, which is always useful.


 
Fair enough, I think trashy's is way too informal, it also invites further discussion where she really doesnt want any. If there was an existing good relationship there I might use it. But a customer you didnt even want in the first place? I disagree, but hey ho off you go.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (May 13, 2012)

grit said:


> Brusque is just a synonym for rude, what exactly is rude about it.


Well, brusque doesn't mean rude. It means abrupt or blunt. It might count as a synonym in a quick crossword, but it doesn't actually mean rude.


----------



## two sheds (May 13, 2012)

Whatever you put it isn't as rude as he's been to you. What you wrote looks fine to me.


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

grit said:


> So its just a feeling you have, well there isint much for me to respond to in that case.


Grit, you know you're trolling again. This thread isn't about you.

I've said why I found what you would said was rude. I've said I have a very formal business style, and that what you've written comes across as short and though the writer can't be bothered to properly reply - which is the essence of its rudeness, the lack of manners and impoliteness. I know that such communications are not encouraged by the industry in which I work or the company that I work for.

There's no need for you to continually push posters the way you have been recently.


----------



## grit (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I know that such communications are not encouraged by the industry in which I work or the company that I work for.


 
If this thread is about trashy why are you talking about the company you work for?


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

grit said:


> If this thread is about trashy why are you talking about the company you work for?


I'm not, other to explain my style of business communication


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## GarfieldLeChat (May 13, 2012)

Any fool can work for free or for cheap.

So let them hire any fool. Just don't be it.


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## harpo (May 13, 2012)

FWIW I preferred TP's.


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## Corax (May 13, 2012)

Thank you for your email.

Unfortunately, your confirmation was not sent within the agreed timescales and I have accepted an engagement for another client.

It is possible that I could manage both projects, but it would require that I work on your copy out of normal hours, which I would have to charge at 1.5 of the rate we discussed.  If this is agreeable to you then please let me know at the soonest opportunity.  If not, then I hope you will keep me in mind for future requirements.

Kind regards,
Trashy.


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## trashpony (May 13, 2012)

Corax said:


> Thank you for your email.
> 
> Unfortunately, your confirmation was not sent within the agreed timescales and I have accepted an engagement for another client.
> 
> ...


 
I like that. I will steal the first and last lines but not the middle as one of the things I do is work outside normal hours and I don't charge extra for it which I told him at the meeting. And even if I charged him 1.5x, it'd still be 75% of my usual rate


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## geminisnake (May 13, 2012)

I think I'd go for a mix of grit and Corax's posts but then I can be a bit blunt apparently and rather formal when I write 

You used assumed!! I wouldn't use assume in a business letter. I think it would be wise to potentially keep lines open, just in case he bucks his ideas up  Good luck.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 13, 2012)

or alternatively, you could say it with a lolcat.


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## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

geminisnake said:


> I think I'd go for a mix of grit and Corax's posts but then I can be a bit blunt apparently and rather formal when I write
> 
> You used assumed!! I wouldn't use assume in a business letter. I think it would be wise to potentially keep lines open, just in case he bucks his ideas up  Good luck.


Oh yes, stick to facts - harder to argue with


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## two sheds (May 13, 2012)

Even if he agreed four times your normal rate I'd still question whether he'll pay you at the end of the job. So, assuming it goes bad and you have to take him to small claims court, has he got any assets you could claim against? 

I'd say again it's down to how you felt after having the meeting with him. I wouldn't want to work for someone like that, it's asking for trouble.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 13, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Even if he agreed four times your normal rate I'd still question whether he'll pay you at the end of the job. So, assuming it goes bad and you have to take him to small claims court, has he got any assets you could claim against?
> 
> I'd say again it's down to how you felt after having the meeting with him. I wouldn't want to work for someone like that, it's asking for trouble.


 
^ this.

from what you've said, he sounds like a potential client from hell.

some work isn't worth doing.


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## trashpony (May 13, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Even if he agreed four times your normal rate I'd still question whether he'll pay you at the end of the job. So, assuming it goes bad and you have to take him to small claims court, has he got any assets you could claim against?
> 
> I'd say again it's down to how you felt after having the meeting with him. I wouldn't want to work for someone like that, it's asking for trouble.


He does work for a company with about 30 employees which was set up by someone who is very respectable (I know who he is) so I can't imagine he wouldn't pay. However, they are very inexperienced in doing what I do which would mean a bit of a nightmare and if they were prepared to pay me my normal rate and would accept that they're on a bit of a learning curve that I can help them with, the relationship would probably work. But given that those last two qualifiers aren't seeming remotely likely, I think I'd just be stuck with a bit of a nightmare.


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## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

trashpony said:


> He does work for a company with about 30 employees which was set up by someone who is very respectable (I know who he is) so I can't imagine he wouldn't pay. However, they are very inexperienced in doing what I do which would mean a bit of a nightmare and if they were prepared to pay me my normal rate and would accept that they're on a bit of a learning curve that I can help them with, the relationship would probably work. But given that those last two qualifiers aren't seeming remotely likely, I think I'd just be stuck with a bit of a nightmare.


Also, you'd be stuck fixing whatever problems he caused, I reckon.


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## grit (May 13, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> some work isn't worth doing.


 
Once they are charged for their muppetry, in some cases it might have to be more than 4 times. Reminds of that that line from lock stock and two smoking barrells.

"You can have a gold plated rolls royce, once you pay for it"


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## clicker (May 13, 2012)

You could always reply in limerick form and include lots of smiley faces      ...on account of the fact his proposal was laughable and you are responding in kind.


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## trashpony (May 14, 2012)

I've had a reply:


> I would just like to mention that the timescales I had mentioned on Thursday were "by close of play today or by tomorrow at the latest" and my email was sent on Friday i.e. within what I had specified.


 
That's a lie obviously


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## Citizen66 (May 14, 2012)

I would have probably just been honest and told him that i didn't appreciate being rail roaded into accepting rates of pay on his terms. Beating about the bush just invites further debate on the matter.


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## trashpony (May 14, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I would have probably just been honest and told him that i didn't appreciate being rail roaded into accepting rates of pay on his terms. Beating about the bush just invites further debate on the matter.


He would have then had a hissy fit and told me that I'd agreed to work for that rate and that if I didn't want to do it at that price, I shouldn't have agreed to it.

Either way, he was never going to admit that his approach to negotiation was inappropriate in this kind of situation.


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## geminisnake (May 14, 2012)

The guy's a twat, you're better off out of it! The blatant lie reply proves it, as if you needed proof!


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## Corax (May 14, 2012)

Email him to say you've discovered that the error was at your end, and to apologise you'd like to offer to take on the work for the price agreed minus 20% to make up for the misunderstanding.

Then when the completion deadline is reached, send him a picture of a badly drawn kangaroo in crayon.


----------



## trashpony (May 14, 2012)

geminisnake said:


> The guy's a twat, you're better off out of it! The blatant lie reply proves it, as if you needed proof!


I don't think I will reply, otherwise we'll just get into 'oh no, you didn't!, 'oh yes, I did!' territory


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## quimcunx (May 14, 2012)

I would quite like to have been a fly on the wall and hear what he said to his colleagues.


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## clicker (May 14, 2012)

You definitely deserve the kudos of ignoring the last email....lets hope he didnt bathe in _too_ much glory with his superiors at managing to get a ridiculous price negotiated for the job....


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## trashpony (May 14, 2012)

Me too. We weren't alone at the meeting - the team administrator was also there and she was obviously very embarrassed by his hard man act. So if he is going around telling everyone I'm dead flaky which I'm sure he will be, she knows he's lying. This makes me happy


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## two sheds (May 14, 2012)

I don't know the politics, I'd be tempted to write a puzzled e-mail to the team administrator explaining that despite you dropping your rates (which you will unfortunately not be able to do in future) for tosser for an insanely deadlined job (as I recall), you were not contacted in time but when you told tosser this he disputed your recollection of what the deadline was.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 14, 2012)

I'd just leave it to be honest


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## two sheds (May 14, 2012)

Fair do's.


----------



## Santino (May 14, 2012)

In some circumstances I would be uneasy about letting a false accusation about me go unchallenged, in case the subject was raised again in the future and I didn't want my silence to be interpreted as accepting the truth of it.


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## trashpony (May 14, 2012)

Santino said:


> In some circumstances I would be uneasy about letting a false accusation about me go unchallenged, in case the subject was raised again in the future and I didn't want my silence to be interpreted as accepting the truth of it.


Yeah, I take your point. I can just see us getting into email wars if I reply though. The way he's worded it, I think it's clear that he knows it's not true.


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## teuchter (May 14, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I've had a reply:
> 
> _I would just like to mention that the timescales I had mentioned on Thursday were "by close of play today or by tomorrow at the latest" and my email was sent on Friday i.e. within what I had specified._
> 
> That's a lie obviously


 

Tell him that you are "very willing to take on the job, or not in the slightest interested at the least" and "for 50% of your normal rate, or 500% at the most".


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## claphamboy (May 14, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I've had a reply:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I don't think I could let him get away with that TBH.

I would have to reply along the lines of - Sorry, but that's not what you told me. Perhaps that's what you told others that you were negotiating with for this contract, and that's where your confusion is rooted. Not that is matters now, things have moved on, I am sorry you missed the opportunity of working with me.

But, that's me, I can a right bugger when dealing with tossers.


----------



## temper_tantrum (May 14, 2012)

It's not worth getting into this kind of back-and-forth with these time-wasting tossers, and it inevitably proves less rewarding than you felt at the time it would be.
I would have just sent a very brief 'thanks but no thanks' email reply and left it at that.
As it is, it's certainly not worth replying again now, he seems like exactly the kind of person who will drag things out as long as possible and be as petty as he can be, and there's much more reputational risk associated with getting into an argument than there is in maintaining a dignified silence and giving your side of the story at a later date if any other potential client raises it. Though I expect his reputation precedes him anyway.


----------



## Big Gunz (May 14, 2012)

Yeah walk away and always go with gut instinct.  The guy is a grade A tosser, don't do business with these types if it can be avoided.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (May 14, 2012)

Sounds like a prime "Apprentice" candidate.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 14, 2012)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Sounds like a prime "Apprentice" candidate.


We used Apprentice clips at school for  examples of "How not to behave in interviews and the workplace".


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## claphamboy (May 14, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> We used Apprentice clips at school for examples of "How not to behave in interviews and the workplace".


 
I've never watched the programme, but I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that clips could be better used as examples of 'how not to behave as an interviewer and employer'. 

* this assumption could have a lot to do with a general hatred of Alan Sugar, and given the choice of working for him or killing the bastard, I would go for the second option TBH.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (May 14, 2012)

I've never seen an episode, only clips.


----------



## ymu (May 14, 2012)

two sheds said:


> I don't know the politics, I'd be tempted to write a puzzled e-mail to the team administrator explaining that despite you dropping your rates (which you will unfortunately not be able to do in future) for tosser for an insanely deadlined job (as I recall), you were not contacted in time but when you told tosser this he disputed your recollection of what the deadline was.


I would do this and cc it to the other person at the meeting, just to make sure he couldn't carry on bullshitting both them and me.

Very professional version of the quoted suggestion required, obv, if that's what you do.


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## Citizen66 (May 14, 2012)

Seems a bit vengeful. Trashy has already got revenge by him now having to find someone else to do the work with the deadline now closer than it was.


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## claphamboy (May 14, 2012)

Revenge is sweet. 

* when deserved.


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## Citizen66 (May 14, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> Revenge is sweet.
> 
> * when deserved.


 
It is, but why shoot herself in the foot also? She's provided an adequate explanation as to why she can't do the work and probably given him a complete headache in the process (has to find someone else, cheap labour that he beat down in price has fallen through due to his own doing, deadline looming). He may be able to put some work her way in the future. If she goes the step further and rubs his nose in the shit in front of his colleagues she's more likely going to damage her own position in return for not much more satisfaction than she has already attained. I say leave it.


----------



## claphamboy (May 14, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> He may be able to put some work her way in the future.


 
I got the impression that he was so much of a tosser, that trashpony wouldn't want to work for him in the future anyway. Certainly from what has been described, I wouldn't, mainly from a fear of not getting paid for what was agreed anyway.

If he can lie over this little poit, just imagine what sort of lies he could come out with after sucking you in to do work in the future and you're chasing payment.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (May 14, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> I got the impression that he was so much of a tosser, that trashpony wouldn't want to work for him in the future anyway.


He's a tosser but the firm is run by someone who is OK. Chances are he won't last long but the firm probably will, so she may well be happy to work for the firm in future.


----------



## ymu (May 14, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Seems a bit vengeful. Trashy has already got revenge by him now having to find someone else to do the work with the deadline now closer than it was.


It's about protecting herself against his bitching behind her back, not vengeance.


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## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2012)

grit said:


> Direct and to the point, what a professional communication should be. You are not friends.


 
Depends what business you're in.
I've never understood why people think there's any single "correct" form of written communication in business. Businesses differ, as do modes of address, degree of formality and actual mode of written communication. I wouldn't address a lawyer in the same way as an ad exec, for example. Horses for courses, and "direct and to the point" is sometimes not what's required.


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## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2012)

grit said:


> Brusque is just a synonym for rude, what exactly is rude about it.


 
It's actually a synonym for "terse".


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## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2012)

grit said:


> So its just a feeling you have, well there isint much for me to respond to in that case.


 
You know how I've said previously about how you come across as arrogant and overbearing?

Well, you're doing it again.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Whatever you put it isn't as rude as he's been to you. What you wrote looks fine to me.


 
Yep. It's entirely professional within the context of the matter it deals with, and that's what matters, as far as I'm concerned, and wearing my "professional letter-writer" cap.


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## Citizen66 (May 14, 2012)

ymu said:


> It's about protecting herself against his bitching behind her back, not vengeance.


 
He _could_ be bitching about her, but it's speculation. Acting on the assumption by the way described will humiliate him among his colleagues and could damage her standings with the company as a result (Don't work with her, she creates waves if she has a grievance). And he's probably doing a good enough job of rendering himself unemployed without outside intervention.


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## temper_tantrum (May 14, 2012)

She coulda done the work for free in the time it'd take to get into an argument with this guy 
Not worth it. Rise above it.


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## ymu (May 14, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> He _could_ be bitching about her, but it's speculation. Acting on the assumption by the way described will humiliate him among his colleagues and could damage her standings with the company as a result (Don't work with her, she creates waves if she has a grievance). And he's probably doing a good enough job of rendering himself unemployed without outside intervention.


I did point out that it would have to be carefully written. But it is a back covering exercise, and I think more professional than just ignoring his email.

It's trashy's call, obv. She knows her clients and business environment. I regularly allow mine to mug me off, so I'm just vicariously loving this thread.


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## Citizen66 (May 14, 2012)

ymu said:


> I did point out that it would have to be carefully written. But it is a back covering exercise, and I think more professional than just ignoring his email.
> 
> It's trashy's call, obv. She knows her clients and business environment. I regularly allow mine to mug me off, so I'm just vicariously loving this thread.


 
It also depends on the size of the pond you swim in and if you're snowed under with work or not. My mate gets some of his clients word of mouth but lots from search engine results and people seeing his work online. He's forwarded me quite a few amusing exchanges where he's completely ripped the piss out of clients who are trying to pull stunts on him. But he does have enough work that he can turn stuff down, his clients are quite separate from each other and he enjoys those sorts of exchanges. If his work was somewhere like television*, rather than web and graphic design, he'd have to suck corporate dick a bit more as industries like that are fairly small and cliquey and being seen to fuck someone over in one company can quickly snowball into you becoming a pariah in the entire industry.

*Not saying Trashy works in television, just using that as an example!


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## Athos (May 14, 2012)

I'd write:

With respect, I'm sure you've remembered events incorrectly.

I recall it clearly because I was contacted by a regular client shortly after we met. Despite being offered work at my usual day rate, I told him that I couldn't commit to his commission until the following day, because I knew that I could not do both pieces of work, and that I had given you first refusal until the end of the day.

Had you got back to as agreed, I would have accepted your commission. Unfortunately, because you did not, I could not turn down the other work. I am sorry that you missed out, as I'm sure I'd have done a great job at a very good price.

No need to reply; I just wanted to set the record straight.

Best of luck with the project.


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## pinkmonkey (May 14, 2012)

Its best to say nothing, ive found? **

One of the biggest arseholes in my trade that I ever came accross, i came into contact with him again 13 years after i first met him. He was the one signing off and rubber stamping a project that a client of mine was employing me for.  Had I kicked up a stink, 13 years previously, I dont think Id have got this gig.
Everyone knows hes a twat, you know this bloke is a twat, i think most people are capeable of figuring it out for themselves as well, so you don't need to get into a point scoring email war, not necessary, not needed and possibly damaging. And hes probably quite capeable of outing himself as a twat without you needing to help him.

**of course if someone out there is ripping people off,not paying them etc, then us freelancers in my trade are very quick to tip each other off about this type of behaviour, but word of mouth, please,  don't type it out.


----------



## Citizen66 (May 14, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> Its best to say nothing, ive found? **
> 
> One of the biggest arseholes in my trade that I ever came accross, i came into contact with him again 13 years after i first met him. He was the one signing off and rubber stamping a project that a client of mine was employing me for. Had I kicked up a stink, 13 years previously, I dont think Id have got this gig.
> Everyone knows hes a twat, you know this bloke is a twat, i think most people are capeable of figuring it out for themselves as well, so you don't need to get into a point scoring email war, not necessary, not needed and possibly damaging. And hes probably quite capeable of outing himself as a twat without you needing to help him.
> ...


 
I agree with this. By him replying a day late trashy was handed a get out clause to his dickish behaviour. At the moment, despite what he said in the email, he knows the blame lies at his door for it falling through (I suspect he was late getting back because he was attempting to secure an even cheaper labour rate and then crawled back when he couldn't pull it off. Which makes it funnier and shows him up as the amateur he is).

His colleagues will blame him for the fuck up. It isn't difficult to secure someone to do the work if you are pleasant enough, pay well and pay on time. He was glory hunting, for whatever reason, and he made a hash of it. Nobody needs this pointing out to them.


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## trashpony (May 14, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I agree with this. By him replying a day late trashy was handed a get out clause to his dickish behaviour. At the moment, despite what he said in the email, he knows the blame lies at his door for it falling through (I suspect he was late getting back because he was attempting to secure an even cheaper labour rate and then crawled back when he couldn't pull it off. Which makes it funnier and shows him up as the amateur he is).
> 
> His colleagues will blame him for the fuck up. It isn't difficult to secure someone to do the work if you are pleasant enough, pay well and pay on time. He was glory hunting, for whatever reason, and he made a hash of it. Nobody needs this pointing out to them.


I'm not sure if he was trying to secure a cheaper labour rate or just make me sweat but either way, it was entirely deliberate. An email sent at 17.02 on a Friday night is designed to be a headfuck.

I don't think it'll do me any favours to reply. His story around the company now can only be 'I managed to beat her down to half her normal day rate and then she decided to work with another client instead'. He can't spin it any other way really. He can say that he replied to me within the timeframe agreed but everyone will know that I walked away because the money was shit.

Getting into a disagreement over email is just giving him an opportunity to say that I'm a liar as well as a flake. It's not going to do me any favours but will bolster his position. I think a dignified silence makes my position perfectly clear. He knows I know he's lying. His assistant knows he's lying.


----------



## grit (May 14, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's actually a synonym for "terse".


 
They are actually not one to one relationships.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 14, 2012)

It strikes me that somebody who has such an aggressive attitude is in one of the following positions:

1. Works for company where that's considered normal. You wouldn't want to work for them anyway. These places do exist, and some are quite profitable, but they're full of cunts (Capita is one that falls in that category IME and I'd not work for them ever).

2. Works for company where that's not considered normal, which is more how it sounds. Will be out of a job fairly soon unless they are in some privileged position, as other people realise that they are pissing off good freelancers to a degree that is never going to be made up for by reduced rates on the ones they get. Nothing to be gained by doing more than maintaining a dignified stance, and possibly maintaining contact with _other_ people in the company.


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## trashpony (May 15, 2012)

They seem to be one of those places that have really overqualified people in positions they're ill-suited for. Dickhead has multiple degrees and the admin woman has a PhD. I think I might ask both of them to be connections on Linked In. I don't care about dickhead obviously but if he goes and she stays, it might be a good idea.


----------



## equationgirl (May 15, 2012)

trashpony said:


> They seem to be one of those places that have really overqualified people in positions they're ill-suited for. Dickhead has multiple degrees and the admin woman has a PhD. I think I might ask both of them to be connections on Linked In. I don't care about dickhead obviously but if he goes and she stays, it might be a good idea.


Lots of places these days seem to specify higher levels degrees like MBAs and PhDs for jobs that do not require them.


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

A lot of schools demand 1sts for Teaching Assistants now


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## Mrs Magpie (May 15, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I think I might ask both of them to be connections on Linked In.


I wouldn't.


----------



## equationgirl (May 15, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> A lot of schools demand 1sts for Teaching Assistants now


It's all getting a bit silly really.


----------



## equationgirl (May 15, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I wouldn't.


Certainly wouldn't want to be connected to him.


----------



## grit (May 15, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Yeah, I take your point. I can just see us getting into email wars if I reply though. The way he's worded it, I think it's clear that he knows it's not true.


 
This is the exact reason I phrased my email the way I did, you invited further discussion and its descended into this bullshit.


----------



## trashpony (May 15, 2012)

grit said:


> This is the exact reason I phrased my email the way I did, you invited further discussion and its descended into this bullshit.


 
He would still have answered that way, even if I'd used your really abrupt response. The difference is that I would have stooped to his level.


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## 5t3IIa (May 15, 2012)

I'd leave it now. Walk away and get on with my life. It's like a baaaaaaad date.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (May 15, 2012)

trashpony said:


> I'm self-employed and today I had a meeting with a potential new client. He made a huge fuss about my day rate (which isn't outrageous - I know what other people charge) and managed to beat me down to half what I normally charge - mainly because I'm shit at negotiating but also because he kept saying stuff like 'is that the best you can do? Shall we just stop the meeting now?' and I felt like I couldn't walk out because it seemed really rude and weird. As the meeting went on, I became more and more uncomfortable. Not just because of the money but because he had Client From Hell written all over him because of his expectations.
> 
> But I'm freelance and I've never told a client thanks but no thanks before.
> 
> ...


 
Tell him to fuck off.


----------



## Meltingpot (May 15, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> I'd leave it now. Walk away and get on with my life. It's like a baaaaaaad date.


 
True but I'm still wondering if Trashy should contact someone else in the company and say she's unhappy with his behaviour, especially if she's dealt with them before and might want to again if and when "Tosser"'s out of the way. After all, she's said the person who runs the company is a decent sort.


----------



## Pingu (May 15, 2012)

i would just leave it.

its not going to achieve anything and may make things worse. he is there and can speak to people all day making snide comments and putting her in a bad light if he wants to. mud sticks, best to just let it die down and if an opportunity presents itslef in the future, and it is relevant to do so, mention it then.


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## 5t3IIa (May 15, 2012)

Meltingpot said:


> True but I'm still wondering if Trashy should contact someone else in the company and say she's unhappy with his behaviour, especially if she's dealt with them before and might want to again if and when "Tosser"'s out of the way. After all, she's said the person who runs the company is a decent sort.



His long suffering assistant knows he's a tosser, and s/he won't be the only one. 

In my job the assistants/PAs are the people we speak to most. They are gold and if they like uou/can work with you they will stand up and convince their bosses to use you. A good boss/manager should realise the worth of their opinion.


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## trashpony (May 15, 2012)

Meltingpot said:


> True but I'm still wondering if Trashy should contact someone else in the company and say she's unhappy with his behaviour, especially if she's dealt with them before and might want to again if and when "Tosser"'s out of the way. After all, she's said the person who runs the company is a decent sort.


Their business model is that 99% of the people that work there are consultants and then there about three people who aren't and this bloke is the head honcho of the people who aren't so I doubt he'll be going any time soon. I haven't dealt with them before - I used to work with one of their consultants and I know of the guy that set up the company and am fairly sure he would pay his invoices. Whether he's a tosser or not, I don't know


----------



## Voley (May 15, 2012)

You've done the right thing here trashy. You've got out of a deal that would almost certainly have resulted in loads of work with little chance of payment and you've not put anything in writing that could come back to haunt you. All you've lost is the time the meeting took. Hopefully the squirming that'll be going on over at the tossers office right now is adequate payment for this.


----------



## grit (May 15, 2012)

Meltingpot said:


> True but I'm still wondering if Trashy should contact someone else in the company and say she's unhappy with his behaviour, especially if she's dealt with them before and might want to again if and when "Tosser"'s out of the way. After all, she's said the person who runs the company is a decent sort.


 
 just leave it


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## grit (May 15, 2012)

trashpony said:


> He would still have answered that way.


 
I dont think so, but I guess we will never know.


----------



## trashpony (May 15, 2012)

grit said:


> I dont think so, but I guess we will never know.


Your suggestion was:


> Dear X,
> 
> Apologies, due to the delay in your response, I have been engaged by another client. Regretably this means I'm currently unavailable to provide you with a service.
> 
> Regards


 
I sent:


> Thank you for your email. Unfortunately, your confirmation was not sent within the agreed timescales and I have since accepted another project so am unable to help you out on this occasion.
> 
> Best of luck with your project and I hope you will keep me in mind for any future requirements.


 
He would have replied the same way.


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## pinkmonkey (May 15, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It strikes me that somebody who has such an aggressive attitude is in one of the following positions:
> 
> 1. Works for company where that's considered normal. You wouldn't want to work for them anyway. These places do exist, and some are quite profitable, but they're full of cunts (Capita is one that falls in that category IME and I'd not work for them ever).
> 
> 2. Works for company where that's not considered normal, which is more how it sounds. Will be out of a job fairly soon unless they are in some privileged position, as other people realise that they are pissing off good freelancers to a degree that is never going to be made up for by reduced rates on the ones they get. Nothing to be gained by doing more than maintaining a dignified stance, and possibly maintaining contact with _other_ people in the company.


 
Yes, we've just yesterday signed a contract with an ex-employee of a company I used to work for.  The boss of that company was a wanker.  This ex employee isn't.  I don't burn my bridges and I do keep in touch with the people I do like our trade is too small for that.


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## pinkmonkey (May 15, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I wouldn't.


 
I'd be careful with LI, me and a friend (who designs handbags) were both linked with a footwear designer neither of us knew.  She and a trading company have since both been ripped off by this woman.

She is a LION (over 500 connections) loads of recommendations.  All totally meaningless.  Made a few calls after I heard about what she'd done and found out she is a known con artist.  LI is full of fake accounts and dodgy fuckers, I really don't trust it. It's really easy to set up an account, a fake cv and get recommended by people you don't know and I'm shocked how many people I've never met ask me for a recommendation.  No! Fuck off!

I have deleted her as a contact.  As a freelancer, I keep my LI contact list private,  mainly because I don't want people digging around to see who we work with but also because I'm linked with them that doesn't mean I endorse them.


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## trashpony (May 15, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> I'd be careful with LI, me and a friend (who designs handbags) were both linked with a footwear designer neither of us knew. She and a trading company have since both been ripped off by this woman.
> 
> She is a LION (over 500 connections) loads of recommendations. All totally meaningless. Made a few calls after I heard about what she'd done and found out she is a known con artist. LI is full of fake accounts and dodgy fuckers, I really don't trust it. It's really easy to set up an account, a fake cv and get recommended by people you don't know and I'm shocked how many people I've never met ask me for a recommendation. No! Fuck off!
> 
> I have deleted her as a contact. As a freelancer, I keep my LI contact list private, mainly because I don't want people digging around to see who we work with but also because I'm linked with them that doesn't mean I endorse them.


I got my last job through it but I only ever connect with people I know. I keep my list open because it adds a bit of credibility to my CV but I can totally understand why you wouldn't in your shoes (ho ho)

I have reconsidered inviting them to connect


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## Pingu (May 15, 2012)

aye. the mistake some people make with LI is to treat it like facebook.

i manage my list of contacts on there so that its actually relevant to what i do. for building up a network of contacts its great but never ever be tempted to update your status to "off my face on mushies wow what a festival".


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## temper_tantrum (May 15, 2012)

I get a lot of LI requests from people I don't know, I refuse them. I use it as a way of demonstrating my contacts book, when 'important' people want to check my bona fides. It really depends on your industry as to how you use it though.


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## pinkmonkey (May 15, 2012)

I do a cull every few months, it can be useful to add people you dont directly know, got a good client that way, but if Ive had no interaction with them, then they go. There are too many people who just collect contacts.  Its pointless.


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## Corax (May 15, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Lots of places these days seem to specify higher levels degrees like MBAs and PhDs for jobs that do not require them.


That's because Tory Blair decided everyone should go to University.  And in addition we now have access dictated by income rather than intellectual ability.  [/pet hate]


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## equationgirl (May 15, 2012)

Corax said:


> That's because Tory Blair decided everyone should go to University. And in addition we now have access dictated by income rather than intellectual ability.  [/pet hate]


Don't get me started - I have many long rants on this topic


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## equationgirl (May 15, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> I get a lot of LI requests from people I don't know, I refuse them. I use it as a way of demonstrating my contacts book, when 'important' people want to check my bona fides. It really depends on your industry as to how you use it though.


I got a persistent chap once. I'd never worked with him, in any of the positions I'd had. I declined his first two or three invites, them when it became obvious he was not going to stop, I sent him a message asking him when we'd worked together. He never replied but stopped sending me invites. Even if I know the person, if I haven't spoken to them for a while and I'm not likely to speak to them in the future, I don't accept the invite.


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## sleaterkinney (May 15, 2012)

Pingu said:


> i would just leave it.
> 
> its not going to achieve anything and may make things worse. he is there and can speak to people all day making snide comments and putting her in a bad light if he wants to. mud sticks, best to just let it die down and if an opportunity presents itslef in the future, and it is relevant to do so, mention it then.


I agree with this, I'm a freelancer and there's no sense in burning bridges. This guy could be an asshole or he might not have any budget or he could be in over his head.. but a few years down the line you might run into him again.


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## trashpony (Oct 2, 2013)

Bumping an old thread 


trashpony said:


> They seem to be one of those places that have really overqualified people in positions they're ill-suited for. Dickhead has multiple degrees and the admin woman has a PhD. I think I might ask both of them to be connections on Linked In. I don't care about dickhead obviously but if he goes and she stays, it might be a good idea.


I didn't ask either of them to connect on Linked In but he's asked me now. I've ignored him so far - should I accept do you reckon? 

And also - I can't believe this all happened in May last year!


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## Manter (Oct 2, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Bumping an old thread
> 
> I didn't ask either of them to connect on Linked In but he's asked me now. I've ignored him so far - should I accept do you reckon?
> 
> And also - I can't believe this all happened in May last year!


Friend of mine who works in an investment bank fired someone a few weeks ago who then did the whole 'I'm calling my lawyer, I'll ruin you' thing. 

She got a linked in request from him last week  

Doesn't help you, just reminded me


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 2, 2013)

Linkedin sends requests to everyone it can find in your address book or email history tbh - it doesn't really mean a lot.


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## trashpony (Oct 2, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Linkedin sends requests to everyone it can find in your address book or email history tbh - it doesn't really mean a lot.


Really? That makes me feel better on one hand but on the other, I don't want it to send requests from me unless I want it to.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 2, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Really? That makes me feel better on one hand but on the other, I don't want it to send requests from me unless I want it to.


Never give it your email password when signing up, or any other sort of access to your personal info.

There are lawsuits in progress about it, as it doesn't tell you what it's doing and can make you look very unprofessional and spammy.


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## trashpony (Oct 2, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Never give it your email password when signing up, or any other sort of access to your personal info.
> 
> There are lawsuits in progress about it, as it doesn't tell you what it's doing and can make you look very unprofessional and spammy.


I haven't let it access my emails (or given it any passwords) I don't think. 

Presumably it sends an acknowledgement that someone has accepted a contact request from you (ie I'd know if it had been sending stuff out on my behalf?). I do need to keep using it - my profile gets viewed a lot by potential clients and I've had a few jobs through it.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 2, 2013)

trashpony said:


> I haven't let it access my emails (or given it any passwords) I don't think.
> 
> Presumably it sends an acknowledgement that someone has accepted a contact request from you (ie I'd know if it had been sending stuff out on my behalf?). I do need to keep using it - my profile gets viewed a lot by potential clients and I've had a few jobs through it.


If they accept it tells you iirc - it doesn't when it sends the initial request though.

If you've not given it access to any of your contact lists you should be okay. I never have and it's never spammed anyone on my behalf. (It spams _me_ all the time though.)


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## pinkmonkey (Oct 2, 2013)

The latest shite LI discovery I've made is that you can be added to projects you've had no involvement with by contacts you don't know. I can't see how to remove my name from these projects. It sucks! I feel another cull coming on.


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## wiskey (Oct 2, 2013)

Funnily enough I was wondering about signing up to LI only this morning. My friend who's a cabinet maker in the USA asked me to be a contact ... I can't see how I can enhance his life _at all_ though  I'm still not sure how it works but I need a new job in a year.


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## pinkmonkey (Oct 2, 2013)

Don't get me wrong, I get jobs via it all the time, but like any social media you have to manage it and there's plenty of fake accounts, spammers etc.


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## equationgirl (Oct 2, 2013)

trashpony is he still at the same company, and do you have any other contacts there?


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## trashpony (Oct 3, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> trashpony is he still at the same company, and do you have any other contacts there?


Yes he is and I do know someone else at the company. I'm not bothered about working for them tbh - they haven't got a clue what they're doing


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## Citizen66 (Oct 3, 2013)

trashpony said:
			
		

> I haven't let it access my emails (or given it any passwords) I don't think.



But the people who have requested might have done that.


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## trashpony (Oct 3, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> But the people who have requested might have done that.


Yes absolutely - I should imagine that's what's happened here


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## equationgirl (Oct 3, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Yes he is and I do know someone else at the company. I'm not bothered about working for them tbh - they haven't got a clue what they're doing


Then I suggest sending him a response saying 'I'm sorry, who are you?'


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