# Brexit party on 31 January in London is going ahead. And it will be shit.



## editor (Jan 16, 2020)

This is going to be extra-cringe with added gammon and a side salad of racist cunts. Expect many Union Jacks and bald, red faced middle aged men shouting.



> Brexit supporters have been given permission for a party in London's Parliament Square at the moment the UK leaves the EU on 31 January.
> 
> The event, being organised by Leave Means Leave, is due to take place between 21:00 and 23:15 GMT.
> 
> ...


















						Brexit: 31 January gathering in London gets go-ahead
					

Nigel Farage says the Parliament Square party on 31 January will mark a "big moment" in UK history.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




(*worth a thread of its own given the high-profile car crash it's going to be)


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## TopCat (Jan 16, 2020)

How many threads have you started on this? Ffs


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## weltweit (Jan 16, 2020)

I won't be celebrating. 

I liked free movement!


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## Gramsci (Jan 16, 2020)

editor said:


> This is going to be extra-cringe with added gammon and a side salad of racist cunts. Expect many Union Jacks and bald, red faced middle aged men shouting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pretty well certain no one from our patch Lambeth/ Brixton will be going. 

I wonder if Kate Hoey are recently departed Vauxhall MP and mate of Farage will be going?


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## editor (Jan 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> How many threads have you started on this? Ffs


On this big party? None, so I'm not sure what you're whining about.


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## editor (Jan 16, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Pretty well certain no one from our patch Lambeth/ Brixton will be going.
> 
> I wonder if Kate Hoey are recently departed Vauxhall MP and mate of Farage will be going?


I imagine Hoey will be lapping it up. I wouldn't be surprised if it kicks off too.


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## Supine (Jan 16, 2020)

I won't be there. I'll leave it for the lexiteers to represent u75.


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## Gramsci (Jan 16, 2020)

editor said:


> I imagine Hoey will be lapping it up. I wouldn't be surprised if it kicks off too.



As inner Lambeth areas like ours were 80% Remain I find a celebration party in Parliament sq distasteful to say the least. 

I saw them there when Farage had his march to London to support Brexit. Really unpleasant bunch of Union Jack wavers.


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## not-bono-ever (Jan 16, 2020)

ah , give them their day in the sun. they will all shut up after this i'm sure


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## Yossarian (Jan 16, 2020)

Someone should start a rumour that hardcore remainers intent on causing mayhem have infiltrated the crowd disguised as Brexiteers - they'll be signalling each other by holding their Union Jacks upside down.


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## Chilli.s (Jan 17, 2020)

Hope it pisses down with rain.


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## Artaxerxes (Jan 17, 2020)

Anyone got any bad acid?


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## not a trot (Jan 17, 2020)

Chilli.s said:


> Hope it pisses down with rain.



Half inch of snow should bring it all to a halt.


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## kebabking (Jan 17, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> As inner Lambeth areas like ours were 80% Remain I find a celebration party in Parliament sq distasteful to say the least...



If Londoners no longer wish for their city to be the capital city, and therefore the focus of political/national events, I'm sure that other cities would be happy to to take the jobs, focus, and infrastructure investment that accompanies capital status.

Is that what you mean, or are you just some massively self-centred, myopic London cunt with a huge sense of entitlement?


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## Yossarian (Jan 17, 2020)

I wouldn't want to be there at 11pm when Nigel Farage opens the Ark of the Brexit Covenant.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 17, 2020)

I predict that the brexit loons will live out their days in peace and contentment after January 31st, as having got what they wanted at last they will have no more cause for anger or bitterness.

The Daily Express will have the same headline every day: Everything Is Fine Now.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 17, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> I wouldn't want to be there at 11pm when Nigel Farage opens the Ark of the Brexit Covenant.
> 
> View attachment 195943



If his face melted off would we even notice the difference?


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## Gramsci (Jan 17, 2020)

kebabking said:


> If Londoners no longer wish for their city to be the capital city, and therefore the focus of political/national events, I'm sure that other cities would be happy to to take the jobs, focus, and infrastructure investment that accompanies capital status.
> 
> Is that what you mean, or are you just some massively self-centred, myopic London cunt with a huge sense of entitlement?



My Council Ward is in the tp 20% of most deprived in Wales / Enlgand. The "focus" does not trickle down to benefit people  in my area. Despite beng near City of London.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jan 17, 2020)

Can’t the guardian arrange a counter party for the youth and dispossessed? Get Blair, Swinson, the CBI and the Institute of Directors to speak. Lily Allen, Stormzy and Bob Geldof to provide songs of resistance. Counsellors could be available for those suffering PTSD. Perhaps a local theatre Group could recreate the EU’s bailout of Greece? People could come dressed as their ‘favourite European’ to show their internationalism etc


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## kebabking (Jan 17, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> My Council Ward is in the tp 20% of most deprived in Wales / Enlgand. The "focus" does not trickle down to benefit people  in my area. Despite beng near City of London.



I'd lay very good odds on your public transport being _vastly _better and cheaper than any equally deprived ward in Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Swansea, Newcastle or Middlesbrough.


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## Yossarian (Jan 17, 2020)

I hear there's a nationwide counter-party happening called "Not Standing in Parliament Square With a Bunch of Bampots."


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## brogdale (Jan 17, 2020)

'spoons might be quieter, tbf.


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## TopCat (Jan 17, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Can’t the guardian arrange a counter party for the youth and dispossessed? Get Blair, Swinson, the CBI and the Institute of Directors to speak. Lily Allen, Stormzy and Bob Geldof to provide songs of resistance. Counsellors could be available for those suffering PTSD. Perhaps a local theatre Group could recreate the EU’s bailout of Greece? People could come dressed as their ‘favourite European’ to show their internationalism etc


Ensure all the people who described themselves as anti capitalist for decades and now are ardent supporters of the EU's four freedoms turn up.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jan 17, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Ensure all the people who described themselves as anti capitalist for decades and now are ardent supporters of the EU's four freedoms turn up.



I hate neoliberalism, except when it comes in a French accent etc


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## kebabking (Jan 17, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I hate neoliberalism, except when it comes in a French accent etc



Down with capitalism - up with hassle free weekends in Barcelona and year-round Strawberries?


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## andysays (Jan 17, 2020)

kebabking said:


> I'd lay very good odds on your public transport being _vastly _better and cheaper than any equally deprived ward in Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Swansea, Newcastle or Middlesbrough.


We're going way off topic here, but it's worth pointing out that indices of deprivation take public transport into account, which means that areas of general deprivation in inner London (and there are plenty of them) have even worse deprivation than similar scoring wards in your example cities when you take out the benefit of good public transport.

Back on topic, it's true that should those of us living in deprived inner London wish to visit the Brexit Party in a fortnight, the public transport links will help us, though that won't be much of a benefit for most of us, even those like me who voted Leave.


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## editor (Jan 17, 2020)

kebabking said:


> I'd lay very good odds on your public transport being _vastly _better and cheaper than any equally deprived ward in Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Swansea, Newcastle or Middlesbrough.


Yes, and? How does that help the unemployed living off foodbanks in the area? Poverty is poverty regardless of how many buses are passing by your house.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jan 17, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Down with capitalism - up with hassle free weekends in Barcelona and year-round Strawberries?



It’s the possible lack of deferential Eastern European nannies and plumbers that worries me.


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## Yossarian (Jan 17, 2020)

editor said:


> Yes, and? How does that help the unemployed living off foodbanks in the area? Poverty is poverty regardless of how many buses are passing by your house.



Poor Londoners shouldn't complain because there is excellent public transport to take them to the jobs they don't have, apparently. Also, 2016's Lexit arguments appear to somehow be relevant to a thread making fun of the Brexit Party's Brexit party.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 17, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> As inner Lambeth areas like ours were 80% Remain I find a celebration party in Parliament sq distasteful to say the least.



You're in luck, the party's not gonna be in Lambeth.


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## ska invita (Jan 17, 2020)

Brexit tribalism wars aside can't we all hold hands and come together in laughing at the kipper twats who will be outside parliament at this shit fest?


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 17, 2020)

In the name of parity across regions, any British city or town or supermarket car park that would like to host this august gathering is absolutely welcome to take it out of London's hands. Really.


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## Poot (Jan 17, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Brexit tribalism wars aside can't we all hold hands and come together in laughing at the kipper twats who will be outside parliament at this shit fest?


Are you new here?


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## ska invita (Jan 17, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> In the name of parity across regions, any British city or town or supermarket car park that would like to host this august gathering is absolutely welcome to take it out of London's hands. Really.


I'm sure many a pub up and down the land will be doing just that


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## xenon (Jan 17, 2020)

What's the line up?...


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## Artaxerxes (Jan 17, 2020)

xenon said:


> What's the line up?...



The usual suspects


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## Gramsci (Jan 17, 2020)

kebabking said:


> I'd lay very good odds on your public transport being _vastly _better and cheaper than any equally deprived ward in Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Swansea, Newcastle or Middlesbrough.



So you arent disagreeing that some of us Londoners are living in areas as  equally deprived as other parts of England? BTW my Council Ward in London ( in top 20% most deprived wards in England / Wales) was 80% Remain.  

Not all London Remainers are middle class Guardian readers.


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## Gramsci (Jan 17, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You're in luck, the party's not gonna be in Lambeth.



I don't think if they came to Windush Square to celebrate they would get good reception. More likely be told to fuck off.


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## Voley (Jan 17, 2020)

Just seen Morrissey's touring soon too.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 17, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I don't think if they came to Windush Square to celebrate they would get good reception. More likely be told to fuck off.



afaik they aren’t planning to. But thanks for the insight anyway.


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## Gramsci (Jan 17, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> afaik they aren’t planning to. But thanks for the insight anyway.



I cycle around central London all day so used to seeing the "Leave means Leave" Union Jack tossers around the Parliament Square in last few years. 

Hopefully after this last victory party they won't come back to London.


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## peterkro (Jan 17, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> So you arent disagreeing that some of us Londoners are living in areas as  equally deprived as other parts of England? BTW my Council Ward in London ( in top 20% most deprived wards in England / Wales) was 80% Remain.
> 
> Not all London Remainers are middle class Guardian readers.


My constituency in Southwark also voted 74% remain.It contains some of the richest and many of the poorest people in the country.


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## Gramsci (Jan 17, 2020)

peterkro said:


> My constituency in Southwark also voted 74% remain.It contains some of the richest and many of the poorest people in the country.



Breaking it down to ward level is interesting . My Ward has high proportion of social housing. It has high proportion of Black British working class . Descendants of the Windrush generation. Didnt surprise me it was Remain.

There was a swipe up thread about Stormzy. This is guy who has done alrght and hasnt forgotten his working class Black South Londoner roots. Decent guy imo.


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## peterkro (Jan 17, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Breaking it down to ward level is interesting . My Ward has high proportion of social housing. It has high proportion of Black British working class . Descendants of the Windrush generation. Didnt surprise me it was Remain.
> 
> There was a swipe up thread about Stormzy. This is guy who has done alrght and hasnt forgotten his working class Black South Londoner roots. Decent guy imo.


My ward is Cathedrals (it'll go when the new boundary changes are effected).14% Asian,16% Black it also contains many high rise private housing which is only partially occupied and is a source of investment from rich Asians.It also has quite a lot of social housing.Some details here (PDF):

www.southwark.gov.uk › attach › Ward-Profile-Cathedrals-Nov-2017Cathedrals Southwark Ward Profiles Ward - Southwark Council


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## Gramsci (Jan 17, 2020)

peterkro said:


> My ward is Cathedrals (it'll go when the new boundary changes are effected).14% Asian,16% Black it also contains many high rise private housing which is only partially occupied and is a source of investment from rich Asians.It also has quite a lot of social housing.Some details here (PDF):
> 
> www.southwark.gov.uk › attach › Ward-Profile-Cathedrals-Nov-2017Cathedrals Southwark Ward Profiles Ward - Southwark Council



At time of referendum my Council ward in north Lambeth was in top 10% of most deprived wards in country. The gradual gentrification of inner London has altered it slightly. 

London is a very divided city imo on class lines. But its a complicated picture. Needs to be looked at by neighborhood level to see the real picture.


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## Gramsci (Jan 17, 2020)

kebabking said:


> If Londoners no longer wish for their city to be the capital city, and therefore the focus of political/national events, I'm sure that other cities would be happy to to take the jobs, focus, and infrastructure investment that accompanies capital status.
> 
> Is that what you mean, or are you just some massively self-centred, myopic London cunt with a huge sense of entitlement?



Been thinking of what you are saying. 

Its not sense of entitlement. Its that London ( due to Thatcher City deregulation among other things) made London world centre for finance. So the ordinary joe could get by servicing it.

In my home town Plymouth this is not the case. My brother still lives there. This left behind area depends on public sector as the driver of the economy. Secure jobs are in NHS ( my brothers wife) and social services ( my brother). So "austerity" cuts have bigger effect on areas outside London. Knock on effects of government cuts are bigger outside London. 

My Brothers job was almost cut few years ago. That means knock on effect in local economy. 

London is effected by austerity but does not depend so much on the economic public sector to sustain local economy if you see what I mean.

Public sector state funding plays a big role in local economies . Not a criticism but imo a fact. Its been derided by years of Thatcherism/ Neo liberalism.


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## Marty1 (Jan 17, 2020)

No doubt some po faced protestors will turn up with their EU flags.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2020)




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## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> No doubt some po faced protestors will turn up with their EU flags.


farage will no doubt be burning an eu flag and he's certainly po faced.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 22, 2020)

I see there is some sort of immigration legal advice event on the 31st at City Hall for those affected by Brexit.









						London is Open - supporting European Londoners through Brexit
					

City Hall opens its doors to offer free advice and support to European Londoners on the day that the UK leaves the EU




					www.london.gov.uk


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## krtek a houby (Jan 22, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> No doubt some po faced protestors will turn up with their EU flags.



I hope some turn up with a 32 County Republic flag


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## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2020)

.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2020)




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## dessiato (Jan 22, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Anyone got any bad acid?


Like HCl? That can be a pretty bad acid in the wrong place.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 22, 2020)

kebabking said:


> If Londoners no longer wish for their city to be the capital city, and therefore the focus of political/national events, I'm sure that other cities would be happy to to take the jobs, focus, and infrastructure investment that accompanies capital status.
> 
> Is that what you mean, or are you just some massively self-centred, myopic London cunt with a huge sense of entitlement?


This is painfully wrong. I'd love for both the government and, particularly, the City to fuck the fuck off from London. 'London' might be poorer overall as a result, but many of the uber-rich fuckers whose presence makes life in London a huge struggle for other people living here would be gone, and the city would become much more livable as a result. All kinds of possibilities could open up.  This kind of 'city nationalism-corporatism' totally misses that point.


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## Marty1 (Jan 22, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I predict that the brexit loons will live out their days in peace and contentment after January 31st, as having got what they wanted at last they will have no more cause for anger or bitterness.
> 
> The Daily Express will have the same headline every day: Everything Is Fine Now.



But for the remoaner swivel eyed loons - a life of bitterness and resentment no doubt


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## chilango (Jan 22, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> farage will no doubt be burning an eu flag and he's certainly po faced.



I think you missed an "o" out there...


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## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2020)

chilango said:


> I think you missed an "o" out there...


po, poo or pooh farage is still a shit


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## existentialist (Jan 22, 2020)

dessiato said:


> Like HCl? That can be a pretty bad acid in the wrong place.


HF is badder.


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## existentialist (Jan 22, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> But for the remoaner *swivel eyed loons *- a life of bitterness and resentment no doubt


"No, YOU smell"


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## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2020)

existentialist said:


> "No, YOU smell"


he reeks


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## two sheds (Jan 22, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


>




Says twitter account suspended.


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## two sheds (Jan 22, 2020)

Think I saw that they're thinking of displaying Big Ben clock in light - one hopes that others with projectors will be ready with their own contributions.


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## isvicthere? (Jan 22, 2020)

kebabking said:


> If Londoners no longer wish for their city to be the capital city, and therefore the focus of political/national events, I'm sure that other cities would be happy to to take the jobs, focus, and infrastructure investment that accompanies capital status.
> 
> Is that what you mean, or are you just some massively self-centred, myopic London cunt with a huge sense of entitlement?



No, he meant London didn't vote for it, so have it in one of the knuckle-dragging Third World shitholes that did. Maybe Stoke or Lincolnshire?


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## kebabking (Jan 22, 2020)

isvicthere? said:


> No, he meant London didn't vote for it, so have it in one of the knuckle-dragging Third World shitholes that did. Maybe Stoke or Lincolnshire?



Have you thought about a career in politics?


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## MrSki (Jan 24, 2020)




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## 2hats (Jan 27, 2020)

You are reminded that parking facilities are unavailable.


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## Dogsauce (Jan 27, 2020)

Assume the smartarse led by donkeys types will be trolling the fuck out of this with their projectors.

also some fucker should make Big Ben strike 13.


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## existentialist (Jan 27, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Assume the smartarse led by donkeys types will be trolling the fuck out of this with their projectors.
> 
> also some fucker should make Big Ben strike 13.


I do hope there isn't any kind of counter-demo, beyond maybe a silent vigil with people pointing at the 20 ranty gammons in hi-vis.

And I hope it rains. Not anything epic or dramatic - just a constant, irritating drizzle that goes on all day under leaden skies and comprehensively soaks everyone. You know, Proper BRITISH Weather


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## 2hats (Jan 27, 2020)

existentialist said:


> I do hope there isn't any kind of counter-demo, beyond maybe a silent vigil with people pointing at the 20 ranty gammons in hi-vis.
> 
> And I hope it rains. Not anything epic or dramatic - just a constant, irritating drizzle that goes on all day under leaden skies and comprehensively soaks everyone. You know, Proper BRITISH Weather


Maybe they could make themselves useful and hand these out?


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## Marty1 (Jan 27, 2020)

existentialist said:


> I do hope there isn't any kind of counter-demo, beyond maybe a silent vigil with people pointing at the 20 ranty gammons in hi-vis.
> 
> And I hope it rains. Not anything epic or dramatic - just a constant, irritating drizzle that goes on all day under leaden skies and comprehensively soaks everyone. You know, Proper BRITISH Weather



You old humbug


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## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> You old humbug


you auld gobshite


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## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2020)

existentialist said:


> I do hope there isn't any kind of counter-demo, beyond maybe a silent vigil with people pointing at the 20 ranty gammons in hi-vis.
> 
> And I hope it rains. Not anything epic or dramatic - just a constant, irritating drizzle that goes on all day under leaden skies and comprehensively soaks everyone. You know, Proper BRITISH Weather


what you want is proper british winter weather, several hours of sleet


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## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Assume the smartarse led by donkeys types will be trolling the fuck out of this with their projectors.
> 
> also some fucker should make Big Ben strike 13 topple over and crush the fuckers.


c4u


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## existentialist (Jan 27, 2020)

2hats said:


> Maybe they could make themselves useful and hand these out?


Couldn't we just give them plastic bags and _tell_ them they're coronavirus-proof if they pop them over their heads?  Or would that be in bad taste?


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## existentialist (Jan 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> what you want is proper british winter weather, several hours of sleet


Desultory sleet. I want the weather to be a metaphor for the Brexit process.


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## existentialist (Jan 27, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> You old humbug


Less of the "old", sunshine.


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## two sheds (Jan 27, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Couldn't we just give them plastic bags and _tell_ them they're coronavirus-proof if they pop them over their heads?  Or would that be in bad taste?



Yes it would. Instead wear one of them and walk through with a bell chanting "Unclean, Unclean"


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## existentialist (Jan 27, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Yes it would. Instead wear one of them and walk through with a bell chanting "Unclean, Unclean"


And get them to knot it around their necks, so that the insistent sharp breeze doesn't blow it off their heads.


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## ska invita (Jan 27, 2020)

Quite a funny parody account this one
(Sarah ox)


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## brogdale (Jan 27, 2020)

Won't link to source as it's the Express...but this firmly cements Rosindell's position as the thickest vermin MP.



Margaret Thatcher house, FFS


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## brogdale (Jan 27, 2020)

The European (won't link to that either) offered a pic to go with the re-hashed Express piece:


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## QueenOfGoths (Jan 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Won't link to source as it's the Express...but this firmly cements Rosindell's position as the thickest vermin MP.
> 
> View attachment 196863
> 
> Margaret Thatcher house, FFS


That's made me feel quite violent


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## two sheds (Jan 27, 2020)

QueenOfGoths said:


> That's made me feel quite violent



Does this make it better?


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## A380 (Jan 27, 2020)

Why aren't all the Lexiteers organising a massive party on Friday to welcome the re-nationalisation of the top 200 monopolies now we are free from the shackles of the rich mans's club?

Asking for a friend.


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## William of Walworth (Jan 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> what you want is proper british winter weather, *several hours of "sleet"*



"Corrected" for you ... 

"Sleet" -- a thing more accurately referred to as a shedload of rain with a extremely small number of scarcely perceptible "snow flakes" in it ... the sort that people at work get instantly paranoid about, and immediately feel compelled to drive home no later than 2 pm over 

I blame those Cardiff-based, metropolitan Welsh Assembly elitists 
They've clearly *banned* snow on the West Wales coast   , and discriminated in favour of the Gogs and Brecon


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## William of Walworth (Jan 27, 2020)

No significant, or even any!!!, snow in Swansea since 2010, more or less.  

No wonder so many** people here voted Brexit by 2016   

**52%


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> also some fucker should make Big Ben strike 13.



For this joke to land the attendees would need to be able to a) read and b) count past ten without taking their shoes off, so I suspect it's a non starter.


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## Shechemite (Jan 28, 2020)

I’m in london for an appointment during the day. I’ll pop along


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## Marty1 (Jan 28, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> For this joke to land the attendees would need to be able to a) read and b) count past ten without taking their shoes off, so I suspect it's a non starter.



What a great attitude, no sneering bitterness whatsoever.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 28, 2020)

lol


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## hash tag (Jan 28, 2020)

Brexit Countdown Timer
					

Days, Hours, Minutes & Seconds until Brexit [29 March 2019 23:00]




					brexitcountdowntimer.com


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## 2hats (Jan 28, 2020)

From here.


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 28, 2020)

A380 said:


> Why aren't all the Lexiteers organising a massive party on Friday to welcome the re-nationalisation of the top 200 monopolies now we are free from the shackles of the rich mans's club?
> 
> Asking for a friend.



Showing your trotskyist roots there a380.

Also I've never actually heard a 'lexiteer' make this argument. Not one.


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## isvicthere? (Jan 28, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> What a great attitude, no sneering bitterness whatsoever.



Maybe sneering bitterness, but more probably long experience looking at brexit-supporting web pages.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2020)

isvicthere? said:


> Maybe seething bitterness, but more probably long experience looking at brexit-supporting web pages.



I wasn't talking about everyone who voted Brexit, but the kind of people who would turn out to actually celebrate it. I've encountered flag-waving brexit marchers in person and they were overtly racist and transphobic, as well as being as thick as pig shit. 

The EU is a bag of shit and I firmly hope that the UK's departure brings the whole thing crashing down. But our transition to EU client state/banana republic is not something a sane person would celebrate. Nor is this kind of celebration a kind thing to do to the millions of EU citizens resident here who still don't know what's going to happen to them and have no reason at all to trust the vague promises and even vaguer concrete provisions given to them thus far.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> What a great attitude, no sneering bitterness whatsoever.


if you feel an affinity with the likes of farage then you're doing something wrong


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## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I wasn't talking about everyone who voted Brexit, but the kind of people who would turn out to actually celebrate it. I've encountered flag-waving brexit marchers in person and they were overtly racist and transphobic, as well as being as thick as pig shit.
> 
> The EU is a bag of shit and I firmly hope that the UK's departure brings the whole thing crashing down. But our transition to EU client state/banana republic is not something a sane person would celebrate. Nor is this kind of celebration a kind thing to do to the millions of EU citizens resident here who still don't know what's going to happen to them and have no reason at all to trust the vague promises and even vaguer concrete provisions given to them thus far.


Aside from the very questionable idea that being outside the EU ( which you advocate should come crashing down hence presumably leaving ex EU client states in the same boat) equals being a banana republic I dont quite follow the last sentence Frank . Are there really millions of EU citizens resident in the UK who still dont know what is going to happen to them ?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Aside from the very questionable idea that being outside the EU ( which you advocate should come crashing down hence presumably leaving ex EU client states in the same boat) equals being a banana republic I dont quite follow the last sentence Frank . Are there really millions of EU citizens resident in the UK who still dont know what is going to happen to them ?


yes. more than sixty million of them.


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## ska invita (Jan 28, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Are there really millions of EU citizens resident in the UK who still dont know what is going to happen to them ?


a million unregistered still


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Aside from the very questionable idea that being outside the EU ( which you advocate should come crashing down hence presumably leaving ex EU client states in the same boat) equals being a banana republic I dont quite follow the last sentence Frank . Are there really millions of EU citizens resident in the UK who still dont know what is going to happen to them ?



I would not anticipate any collapse of the EU to happen in the next twelve months. And while I don't think leaving the EU would necesarily turn the UK into an even more corrupt, even more unequal and even less functional nation; leaving under the leadership of Boris Johnson certainly will.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 28, 2020)

It's just the very notion that this is anything to celebrate that gets me.
Do folk celebrate when a sick animal is put down?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2020)

ska invita said:


> a million unregistered still



And those who are registered still have no guarantee in law that they'll be given any sort of official status as UK residents.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 28, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> And those who are registered still have no guarantee in law that they'll be given any sort of official status as UK residents.


true. especially so for pre-settled status lot (a third of those registered)


----------



## brogdale (Jan 28, 2020)

No decolonialising in this pub:


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2020)

Thanks but thats quite a  shift from the idea that there are millions who dont know whats going to happen to them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2020)

brogdale said:


> No decolonialising in this pub:
> 
> View attachment 196902


kylie is british music?


----------



## fishfinger (Jan 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> kylie is british music?


And who are Beetles?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> kylie is british music?


Bloody oath


----------



## tommers (Jan 28, 2020)

I'll just be glad that it's all done and we don't have to talk about it any more.

Can't wait for Saturday.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2020)

fishfinger said:


> And who are Beetles?


i am the walrus


----------



## Manter (Jan 28, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Aside from the very questionable idea that being outside the EU ( which you advocate should come crashing down hence presumably leaving ex EU client states in the same boat) equals being a banana republic I dont quite follow the last sentence Frank . Are there really millions of EU citizens resident in the UK who still dont know what is going to happen to them ?


Yes. Data is very difficult to get on, for example, who has applied for settled status and who hasn’t and who has been given the limited, interim status and what that means.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> kylie is british music?



I've never heard of "Don't Be Late," either, maybe it's some local minstrel act.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> kylie is british music?


'in my imagination'


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2020)

I might be putting this on repeat on  Brexit night


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 28, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Showing your trotskyist roots there a380.
> 
> Also I've never actually heard a 'lexiteer' make this argument. Not one.


I thought the removal of state aid rules was a prerequisite to renationalisation?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I thought the removal of state aid rules was a prerequisite to renationalisation?


shurely 'having a government which wants to nationalise things'


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 28, 2020)

brogdale said:


> No decolonialising in this pub:
> 
> View attachment 196902



Oasis too. Noel's on an Irish passport these days.


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 28, 2020)

tommers said:


> I'll just be glad that it's all done and we don't have to talk about it any more.
> 
> Can't wait for Saturday.



Dancing shoes at the ready tommers?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I thought the removal of state aid rules was a prerequisite to renationalisation?



This does not equal I'm immediate or prospective nationalizations though :/


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 28, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> But for the remoaner swivel eyed loons - a life of bitterness and resentment no doubt


Seriously, Marty1?


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 28, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Seriously, Marty1?



No, sarcasm was implied.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> No, sarcasm was implied.


an errant comma has wormed its way into your post


----------



## A380 (Jan 28, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Showing your trotskyist roots there a380.
> 
> Also I've never actually heard a 'lexiteer' make this argument. Not one.


I try to dye them but every few weeks they show through...


----------



## A380 (Jan 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I thought the removal of state aid rules was a prerequisite to renationalisation?


In the same way as there is no law against me being a devastating attractive millionaire who is irresistible to people I would chose as sexual partners. Don’t mean it’s gonna happen though...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I thought the removal of state aid rules was a prerequisite to renationalisation?



State aid rules are not being removed. As mentioned elsewhere, state aid will be permitted only at the EC's discretion and in matters that don't affect Northern Ireland. 

The EU, or let's call a spade a spade and just say 'Germany', really hates state aid. They took Greece to court for bailing out their shipyards, and attempted to do likewise with Spain. They won't need to bother taking us to court, they can just say 'deal's off, have fun starving to death'.


----------



## tommers (Jan 28, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Dancing shoes at the ready tommers?



Stuck my Reebok classics in my bag and I'm ready to join the party.


----------



## editor (Jan 28, 2020)

Here's a coin worth investing in 








__





						BREXIT Silver Commemorative 'WE'RE DOOMED' - Dads Army, Frazer, John Laurie: Amazon.co.uk: Kitchen & Home
					

Great prices on your favourite Home brands, and free delivery on eligible orders.



					www.amazon.co.uk


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 28, 2020)

brogdale said:


> No decolonialising in this pub:
> 
> View attachment 196902






			
				Pickman's model said:
			
		

> kylie is British music?






			
				Yossarian said:
			
		

> I've never heard of "Don't Be Late," either, maybe it's some local minstrel act.



I read that last bit as "Don't be Cats" 
Worst thing on that board IMO


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 28, 2020)

editor said:


> Here's a coin worth investing in
> 
> View attachment 196919
> 
> ...



I wonder if I’ll be delivering many 🤔😄


----------



## A380 (Jan 28, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> State aid rules are not being removed. As mentioned elsewhere, state aid will be permitted only at the EC's discretion and in matters that don't affect Northern Ireland.
> 
> The EU, or let's call a spade a spade and just say 'Germany', really hates state aid. They took Greece to court for bailing out their shipyards, and attempted to do likewise with Spain. They won't need to bother taking us to court, they can just say 'deal's off, have fun starving to death'.


The correct capitalisation is State aid. Fucked if I know why.


----------



## MrSki (Jan 28, 2020)

I am gutted that I will miss this.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 28, 2020)

MrSki said:


> I am gutted that I will miss this.




Anne Widdicombe


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 28, 2020)

Think there’s quite a few regional parties planned.

West Yorks.


----------



## Supine (Jan 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I thought the removal of state aid rules was a prerequisite to renationalisation?



Debunked almost entirely. Such is the farce our lexiteers have bought into.


----------



## tommers (Jan 28, 2020)

Hahaha. This is what it's going to be like from now on. 

Endless events based on the idea that listening to Mark Francois is some kind of good time.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 28, 2020)

The US gets Trump and calls to Build The Wall....UK gets Johnson and Build The Fence! Build the fence  Perfect.


----------



## editor (Jan 28, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The US gets Trump and calls to Build The Wall....UK gets Johnson and Build The Fence! Build the fence  Perfect.



Jeez. What a bellend.


----------



## editor (Jan 28, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Think there’s quite a few regional parties planned.
> 
> West Yorks.
> 
> View attachment 196960


Who the fuck is Melvyn Rutter?

Still, Caroline Silvers sure knew how to work a pub in 2008.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 28, 2020)

You don't know Melvyn Rutter????


----------



## editor (Jan 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> You don't know Melvyn Rutter????


I don't. And neither does Google either, unless he's also a used car salesman.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 28, 2020)

But a Morgan used car salesman


----------



## existentialist (Jan 29, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Think there’s quite a few regional parties planned.
> 
> West Yorks.
> 
> View attachment 196960


"TBC on receipt of ticket"


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 29, 2020)

MrSki said:


> I am gutted that I will miss this.




"That's one public gathering I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole," the coronavirus told reporters.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 29, 2020)

a fridge magnet with the slogan costs £6. The website says: “These OFFICIAL fridge magnets represent a momentous new chapter in the UK’s history, and make fantastic keepsakes or gifts for friends and family.” 

'Got Brexit Done': Tory party sells £12 tea towel in celebration


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> I've never heard of "Don't Be Late," either, maybe it's some local minstrel act.



Don't be late. Tell it to Brexit ffs.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2020)

Manter said:


> Yes. Data is very difficult to get on, for example, who has applied for settled status and who hasn’t and who has been given the limited, interim status and what that means.



I know people who haven't bothered with it at all on the fairly reasonable grounds that 'if they want to kick us out they'll kick us out whether we filled in a form or not'.


----------



## gosub (Jan 29, 2020)

fishfinger said:


> And who are Beetles?


I think it is a misspelling of a popular beat combo m'lord


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 29, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Think there’s quite a few regional parties planned.
> 
> West Yorks.
> 
> View attachment 196960



Not stephen fox and melvyn rutter, wow, fair play


----------



## pesh (Jan 29, 2020)

I can't believe they got Rutter


----------



## Rosemary Jest (Jan 29, 2020)

MrSki said:


> I am gutted that I will miss this.




No alcohol allowed? Taking the piss or what?


----------



## not a trot (Jan 29, 2020)

We're visiting friends in Bath on Saturday. Presuming we'll be able to avoid any celebratory nonsense out that way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2020)

Rosemary Jest said:


> No alcohol allowed? Taking the piss or what?


thought tim martin would be laying it on


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2020)

not a trot said:


> We're visiting friends in Bath on Saturday. Presuming we'll be able to avoid any celebratory nonsense out that way.


bath is having three days of mourning


----------



## Manter (Jan 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I know people who haven't bothered with it at all on the fairly reasonable grounds that 'if they want to kick us out they'll kick us out whether we filled in a form or not'.


Yup. And they will need a few example cases to show they are taking the whole control our borders thing seriously.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2020)

Manter said:


> Yup. And they will need a few example cases to show they are taking the whole control our borders thing seriously.



Or just an easy PR win with their base if (when) brexit and/or domestic policy starts to go sideways.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jan 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> thought tim martin would be lying in it.



FFY


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2020)

There's apparently a "mega SODEM" planned for tomorrow at P Square - that's Steve Bray's group who go there regularly anyway.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There's apparently a "mega SODEM" planned for tomorrow at P Square - that's Steve Bray's group who go there regularly anyway.


Bizarre continuity Remainers. According to their Facebook page 62 people are going .


----------



## YouSir (Jan 29, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There's apparently a "mega SODEM" planned for tomorrow at P Square - that's Steve Bray's group who go there regularly anyway.



Just went by Parliament Square, handful of EU flag wavers out frothing for the cameras. Sad hobby really.


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 29, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not stephen fox and melvyn rutter, wow, fair play



Just heard there’s someone called DJ Corbyn going to headline the whole celebration.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 29, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Just heard there’s someone called DJ Corbyn going to headline the whole celebration.


That's a coincidence. He's got the same surname as the Labour leader.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2020)

existentialist said:


> That's a coincidence. He's got the same surname as the Labour leader.


it's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## editor (Jan 29, 2020)

All your shitty shopping needs catered for 












__





						Exclusive Brexit Merch for you, Friend
					





					e.conservatives.com


----------



## existentialist (Jan 29, 2020)

editor said:


> All your shitty shopping needs catered for
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"We'll put the dates in Roman numerals because they don't matter anyway, but it'll look posh to the proles"


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2020)

YouSir said:


> Just went by Parliament Square, handful of EU flag wavers out frothing for the cameras. Sad hobby really.


If they aren't there on any given day (and also usually Leavers) then there's something wrong.

I realised the other day how weird all of the photos I have of assorted Brexit-related stuff are going to look in a few years' time.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 29, 2020)

Fucking hell, that's real.  

Nothing like bringing people together.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fucking hell, that's real.



Bloody hell, I thought it was some sub-Britain First photoshop nonsense too.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 29, 2020)

existentialist said:


> "We'll put the dates in Roman numerals because they don't matter anyway, but it'll look posh to the proles"


Think it should be Ian, not Jan, strictly speaking. But then people would be wondering who Ian is.

Ian Brexit. He got it done.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2020)

All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.


----------



## Azrael (Jan 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> [...] The EU is a bag of shit and I firmly hope that the UK's departure brings the whole thing crashing down. But our transition to EU client state/banana republic is not something a sane person would celebrate. Nor is this kind of celebration a kind thing to do to the millions of EU citizens resident here who still don't know what's going to happen to them and have no reason at all to trust the vague promises and even vaguer concrete provisions given to them thus far.


Couldn't agree more with the second part, but even allowing for hyperbole, how will it help anyone for the E.U. to come crashing down? Seceding's polling abysmally across the bloc, so its people don't want it; and if there's any hope for intergovernmentalism to replace supranationalism, it'll have to be a slow, cautious process.

For years, Eurosceptism argued that Britain's common law system was fundamentally incompatible with a legal order designed by, and for, civil law states, as the customs and culture of an island nation were a poor fit for those of the Continent. Agree or disagree, that position's different in kind from whatever Brexit's now become, and shows again why I won't be celebrating.


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 29, 2020)

existentialist said:


> That's a coincidence. He's got the same surname as the Labour leader.



Just imagine the confusion on both sides if it was Jezza himself.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 29, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Just imagine the confusion on both sides if it was Jezza himself.


Well, yes. A political leader with no apparent prior track record as a DJ just suddenly rolling up and DJing would be somewhat confusing. It would be as if I turned up for a band gig, and found out that David Cameron has stepped in on the old electric viola.


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 29, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Well, yes. A political leader with no apparent prior track record as a DJ just suddenly rolling up and DJing would be somewhat confusing. It would be as if I turned up for a band gig, and found out that David Cameron has stepped in on the old electric viola.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 29, 2020)

Marty1 said:


>


Yes, that's probably how I'd feel, too - I can't imagine Cameron is any great shakes on the stringed instrument family.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2020)

I think I will go down tomorrow, take some farewell shots. I have pictures of Brexit related protests (pro and anti) going back to the day after the result was announced, when people went to Trafalgar Square in the rain. It would be interesting to put a book or an exhibition of them together actually.

fuck going to hang out outside Parliament on a cold Friday night with that bunch of cunts though


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 29, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think I will go down tomorrow, take some farewell shots. I have pictures of Brexit related protests (pro and anti) going back to the day after the result was announced, when people went to Trafalgar Square in the rain. It would be interesting to put a book or an exhibition of them together actually.
> 
> fuck going to hang out outside Parliament on a cold Friday night with that bunch of cunts though



What would you call your exhibition tho?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> What would you call your exhibition tho?


"A Brextrospective"


----------



## 8ball (Jan 29, 2020)

existentialist said:


> It would be as if I turned up for a band gig, and found out that David Cameron has stepped in on the old electric viola.



I'm not too sure why David Cameron wouldn't necessarily play the electric viola.
I mean, I have little doubt that he _shouldn't_ play it, but am unsure why he wouldn't.


----------



## maomao (Jan 29, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Won't link to source as it's the Express...but this firmly cements Rosindell's position as the thickest vermin MP.
> 
> View attachment 196863
> 
> Margaret Thatcher house, FFS


Ftr I have pissed on MT house and called that man a cunt to his face twice.


----------



## editor (Jan 29, 2020)

Sooo bad











						So What Exactly Is Happening At This Brexit Celebration On Friday?
					

"Party Means Party."




					londonist.com


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jan 29, 2020)

Nearly as bad as farages speech and flag waving in Brussels about half hour ago. Fucking embarrassing


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 29, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "A Brextrospective"



That’s actually very good


----------



## existentialist (Jan 29, 2020)

8ball said:


> I'm not too sure why David Cameron wouldn't necessarily play the electric viola.
> I mean, I have little doubt that he _shouldn't_ play it, but am unsure why he wouldn't.


He might play it. But would he play it _well_?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 29, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "A Brextrospective"


That's _really_ hard to say. Makes me sound like Tony Benn.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jan 29, 2020)

The European Parliament spontaneously singing Auld Lang Syne ...brought tears to my eyes. 
Sad day really.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jan 29, 2020)

Seeing Farage's smug gob...
Stopped any tears.
What a monumental tit


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 29, 2020)

Lupa said:


> Seeing Farage's smug gob...
> Stopped any tears.
> What a monumental tit



Be that as it may - Farage, whether you love or loathe him is probably the most influential politician of our time.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2020)

A380 said:


> Why aren't all the Lexiteers organising a massive party on Friday to welcome the re-nationalisation of the top 200 monopolies now we are free from the shackles of the rich mans's club?
> 
> Asking for a friend.


You utter wanker


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> For this joke to land the attendees would need to be able to a) read and b) count past ten without taking their shoes off, so I suspect it's a non starter.


You are better that this but today you wear a cunt badge.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2020)

You remoaners have a lot to answer for.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jan 29, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Be that as it may - Farage, whether you love or loathe him is probably the most influential politician of our time.



Sorry but..   
No. He will be remembered historically as a monumental fool.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 29, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You remoaners have a lot to answer for.


Anyone using the word 'remoaner' has a lot to answer for.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's _really_ hard to say. Makes me sound like Tony Benn.


or Roy Hattersley

"Brexit" is such a horrible word that I thought I had to find something even worse.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You are better that this but today you wear a cunt badge.



I apologise wholeheartedly for suggesting that people willing to travel across the country and stand out in the rain at night in January to wave a nylon flag and listen to Anne Widdecombe ranting on about converting the gays are in any way shape or form not very bright.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2020)

Lupa said:


> Seeing Farage's smug gob...
> Stopped any tears.
> What a monumental tit



Is this a haiku?


----------



## two sheds (Jan 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Is this a haiku?



17 syllables i think 

well close anyway


----------



## existentialist (Jan 29, 2020)

Lupa said:


> Sorry but..
> No. He will be remembered historically as a monumental fool.


And unelectable, but not ineluctable.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I apologise wholeheartedly for suggesting that people willing to travel across the country and stand out in the rain at night in January to wave a nylon flag and listen to Anne Widdecombe ranting on about converting the gays are in any way shape or form not very bright.


You dogs cock you.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I apologise wholeheartedly for suggesting that people willing to travel across the country and stand out in the rain at night in January to wave a nylon flag and listen to Anne Widdecombe ranting on about converting the gays are in any way shape or form not very bright.


Your not related to Terry Christian are you ?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Anyone using the word 'remoaner' has a lot to answer for.


Dunno about that tbh . All I pick up from a lot of remainers  on social media is them moaning , desperately hoping things go wrong  , so that they can for the many reasons they voted Remain some how be proved right . Food shortages , aeroplanes not flying , UK citizens being barred from visiting  or working in European countries, mass deportations , ex pats flooding back in thousands to drain the NHS , Brie and Camembert never to be seen again etc etc etc . Time to move on .


----------



## tommers (Jan 29, 2020)

So who's going?


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Your not related to Terry Christian are you ?



Blimey!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Dunno about that tbh . All I pick up from a lot of remainers  on social media is them moaning , desperately hoping things go wrong  , so that they can for the many reasons they voted Remain some how be proved right . Food shortages , aeroplanes not flying , UK citizens being barred from visiting  or working in European countries, mass deportations , ex pats flooding back in thousands to drain the NHS , Brie and Camembert never to be seen again etc etc etc . Time to move on .


Some things haven't changed. Brexit is a manifestation of the r/w populist nationalism that has been on the rise across Europe and elsewhere, not some kind of reaction to it. Wrt the political forces that are strengthened by it and will have most say over its eventual shape, that is as true now as it was four years ago. And this Friday is just the start of the Brexit-related shit, not the end of anything.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Some things haven't changed. Brexit is a manifestation of the r/w populist nationalism that has been on the rise across Europe and elsewhere, not some kind of reaction to it. Wrt the political forces that are strengthened by it and will have most say over its eventual shape, that is as true now as it was four years ago. And this Friday is just the start of the Brexit-related shit, not the end of anything.


There you go .


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Dunno about that tbh . All I pick up from a lot of remainers  on social media is them moaning , desperately hoping things go wrong  , so that they can for the many reasons they voted Remain some how be proved right . Food shortages , aeroplanes not flying , UK citizens being barred from visiting  or working in European countries, mass deportations , ex pats flooding back in thousands to drain the NHS , Brie and Camembert never to be seen again etc etc etc . Time to move on .



I think it's a shitty term for the same reason I think this triumphalist bellend jamboree in Parliament Square is shit - a lot of people, particularly immigrants whose status has been in limbo for years, have some very serious worries about Brexit, but the language of the Daily Express etc. dismisses them all as Remoaner losers moaning about Brexit and people should think twice about using it.


----------



## editor (Jan 29, 2020)

Brexit Celebration Day in London: a bit like a team who narrowly won the FA cup via a dodgy decision deciding to hold a victory parade in their opponent's city


----------



## editor (Jan 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Dunno about that tbh . All I pick up from a lot of remainers  on social media is them moaning , desperately hoping things go wrong  , so that they can for the many reasons they voted Remain some how be proved right . Food shortages , aeroplanes not flying , UK citizens being barred from visiting  or working in European countries, mass deportations , ex pats flooding back in thousands to drain the NHS , Brie and Camembert never to be seen again etc etc etc . Time to move on .


Surely the Windrush scandal was an early manifestation of the attitudes coming out of the pro-Brexit mob?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2020)

editor said:


> Surely the Windrush scandal was an early manifestation of the attitudes coming out of the pro-Brexit mob?


The Windrush scandal was appaulling however I honestly dont think it was motivated by a decision to leave the EU.If anything one of the issues around the EU was that it gave more right to citizens in the EU than it did to citizens of the Commonweath and former Commonwealth states.This was a particular issue cited by Asain and Black leavers.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 29, 2020)

I find the association between the EU and pro immigration bizarre. It's called fortress europe for a reason. EU border policy is fucking brutal.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> I think it's a shitty term for the same reason I think this triumphalist bellend jamboree in Parliament Square is shit - a lot of people, particularly immigrants whose status has been in limbo for years, have some very serious worries about Brexit, but the language of the Daily Express etc. dismisses them all as Remoaner losers moaning about Brexit and people should think twice about using it.


Cant see it as anything but a general term for remainers that wouldnt move on after the referendum tbh and the issue around  the staus of  EU citizens in the UK  and  UK citizens in the EU states  was always going to be if you have the right paperwork you'll stay.I've no time for the Express etc what so ever and I'm not  sure many people have either tbh.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2020)

editor said:


> Brexit Celebration Day in London: a bit like a team who narrowly won the FA cup via a dodgy decision deciding to hold a victory parade in their opponent's city


Really not sure if Man Utd comparisons are that appropriate tbh


----------



## existentialist (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Cant see it as anything but a general term for remainers that wouldnt move on after the referendum tbh and the issue around  the staus of  EU citizens in the UK  and  UK citizens in the EU states  was always going to be if you have the right paperwork you'll stay.I've no time for the Express etc what so ever and I'm not  sure many people have either tbh.


I find myself wondering what exactly "move on" is meant to mean in this situation? Because, absent the shuffling of a few bits of legalities and paperwork, nothing has fundamentally changed. Brexit, contrary to the fondest beliefs of its supporters, is not some kind of instant liberation, but the beginning of a process...a process which, many predict, may well result in significant, and possibly negative, economic and social consequences. That problem will remain after Brexit Day just as much as it did before. People saying "and *this* is exactly the consequence we were warning of" is not remoaners not moving on, it's people who were able to look past the fantastical promises of the Leave tendency to the real, practical problems.

And, of course, in this fool's paradise and hall of mirrors, any such comment, no matter how legitimate, will be turned around and used to explain why the almost-inevitable negative consequences of Brexit start to manifest are somehow because not enough people had faith in the whole business, and all those remoaners are why it's not going so well. Let's face it, that process started when the first Brexit supporter jeered "We won. Get over it" on the day after the referendum.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Cant see it as anything but a general term for remainers that wouldnt move on after the referendum tbh and the issue around  the staus of  EU citizens in the UK  and  UK citizens in the EU states  was always going to be if you have the right paperwork you'll stay.I've no time for the Express etc what so ever and I'm not  sure many people have either tbh.



It's used for everyone who's disappointed about Brexit happening, not just those who constantly talk about it. 

And that's ridiculously fucking optimistic about the fate of EU citizens under a Tory government that's gone far more right wing and is also highly incompetent. Yeah, they're the people to trust with the future of immigrants all right


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> The Windrush scandal was appaulling however I honestly dont think it was motivated by a decision to leave the EU.If anything one of the issues around the EU was that it gave more right to citizens in the EU than it did to citizens of the Commonweath and former Commonwealth states.This was a particular issue cited by Asain and Black leavers.


Well, there may be another one coming right up because of Brexit 









						Leaked document reveals Brexit could trigger a Windrush scandal for EU citizens
					

EU citizens could face 'another Windrush' scandal over its plans to end free movement of EU citizens overnight.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Cant see it as anything but a general term for remainers that wouldnt move on after the referendum tbh and the issue around  the staus of  EU citizens in the UK  and  UK citizens in the EU states  was always going to be if you have the right paperwork you'll stay.I've no time for the Express etc what so ever and I'm not  sure many people have either tbh.



What's the right paperwork? Nobody got 'paperwork' when they arrived here. Considering a lot of people voted leave to get rid of immigrants and for no other reason than that, and considering the demand to end free movement has dragged the entire process rightwards to the point where large numbers of people would be happy with no deal provided free movement was ended, I really don't think it's unreasonable for people to be concerned about whether they'll be allowed to stay here.


----------



## flypanam (Jan 30, 2020)

That Romford party really is an unstoppable farce meeting the immovable abject.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> What's the right paperwork? Nobody got 'paperwork' when they arrived here. Considering a lot of people voted leave to get rid of immigrants and for no other reason than that, and considering the demand to end free movement has dragged the entire process rightwards to the point where large numbers of people would be happy with no deal provided free movement was ended, I really don't think it's unreasonable for people to be concerned about whether they'll be allowed to stay here.


Frank , we arent going to agree but you wanted for what ever reason to remain and I voted to leave .I believe a government whether Tory or Labour should carry out the decision of a national referendum , you dont. 
 A  couple of things though , no one  is suggesting that its unreasonable for people to be  to be concerned about their future ,especially with a media fuelled by speculative and  sensational reports of deportations of both EU and UK citizens living abroad. Until the dust settled over no deal or deal things could appear to be unclear. I'm not sugesting everthing is rosy ( theres an article in the Guardian that shows many people affected aren't clear at all on what the withdrawal agreement says Britons in EU remain fearful of post-Brexit healthcare and pension provisions).  Despite your suggestion about lots of people/process dragged rightwards/ happy with no deal /no free movement what we have is a withdrawal agreement that attempts to protects the existing  rights of EU and UK citizens in a reciprocal manne negotiated between the EU and the UJ.I'm sure there are problems with the process both here and in the EU but both parties have offered assistance to those who have problems with the process  but that is the aim.  The paperwork issue actually varies from state to state . The Uk introduced settled  status and presettled  for EU citizens  , 75% of which have applied. EU states vary but in the vast majority of cases its a residency permit varying in length often having to be renewed every five years or ten, something that UK citizens and often EU citizens living  in many  EU states have been required to have had when they arrived. This was even before we had a referendum.  Those who wish to be resident in the UK  or EU from countries outside the EU face far more barriers even if they have family in the UK/EU  who are British/EU  citizens.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

editor said:


> Well, there may be another one coming right up because of Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There could be but the thrust of the report written way before the withdrawal agreement  simply called  for a further four month extension after October 31st  2020


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Frank , we arent going to agree but you wanted for what ever reason to remain and I voted to leave .I believe a government whether Tory or Labour should carry out the decision of a national referendum , you dont.



Don't put words in my mouth. Being concerned about the fate of people who have built lives here in good faith does not mean I don't want the referendum result to be respected. I voted remain because I didn't want the tories in charge of the leaving process, because I knew we'd get shit like exactly what you're doing now where a vote to leave the EU is conflated with a vote to end freedom of movement, and to disregard or diminish the rights of people from other EU states who have built lives here in good faith. Those people are my biggest concern at the moment because they're the most immediately vulnerable. The tories have already deported hundreds or thousands of people who had lived here for decades, even some who were born here, because they didn't have a piece of paperwork that never existed in the first place. You can't just dismiss concerns about that sort of shit happening again as 'remoaning'.

I'm sure the withdrawal agreement makes lots of nice promises, but when you look at the reality lots of applications for 'settled status' have been effectively rejected, on what grounds nobody seems to know, and a fair few have just vanished into the system altogether. The government just voted down an amendment that would have given those with 'settled status' a single document stating their eligibility to live in the UK. Why would they object to providing such a document unless they wanted to keep the door open to the idea of rounding a few people up and deporting or detaining them? Whether as part of some damnfool game of chicken with the EU, to shore up a few votes with the gammons or just as a result of general bureaucratic incompetence. Look at who we've got running the home office ffs. We can safely rule out both basic decency and basic competence as factors affecting the fate of EU citizens.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

existentialist said:


> I find myself wondering what exactly "move on" is meant to mean in this situation? Because, absent the shuffling of a few bits of legalities and paperwork, nothing has fundamentally changed. Brexit, contrary to the fondest beliefs of its supporters, is not some kind of instant liberation, but the beginning of a process...a process which, many predict, may well result in significant, and possibly negative, economic and social consequences. That problem will remain after Brexit Day just as much as it did before. People saying "and *this* is exactly the consequence we were warning of" is not remoaners not moving on, it's people who were able to look past the fantastical promises of the Leave tendency to the real, practical problems.
> 
> And, of course, in this fool's paradise and hall of mirrors, any such comment, no matter how legitimate, will be turned around and used to explain why the almost-inevitable negative consequences of Brexit start to manifest are somehow because not enough people had faith in the whole business, and all those remoaners are why it's not going so well. Let's face it, that process started when the first Brexit supporter jeered "We won. Get over it" on the day after the referendum.


You are probably one of the best examples of a remoaner tbh. .


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

scifisam said:


> It's used for everyone who's disappointed about Brexit happening, not just those who constantly talk about it.
> 
> And that's ridiculously fucking optimistic about the fate of EU citizens under a Tory government that's gone far more right wing and is also highly incompetent. Yeah, they're the people to trust with the future of immigrants all right


Yes they are right wing and incompetent  but what is  more right wing/incompetent about the settled status process compared to other residency processes in other countries?


----------



## scifisam (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Yes they are right wing and incompetent  but what is  more right wing/incompetent about the settled status process compared to other residency processes in other countries?



I didn't say the settled status process was right wing and incompetent. It's annoying when you argue against something I haven't claimed. But so far it's very incompetent, like Frank just laid out above. 

It's also impossible to know exactly what the process is really going to be like for EU citizens because it has only just started, and won't have any meaning until tomorrow when we officially leave. 

It's really not "project fear" or being a remoaner to have a strong suspicion that a Tory govt that's gone way more right wing recently, and has deported Windrush generation citizens and denied citizenship even to some second generation Windrush citizens who were born in the UK, will proceed with settled status rights in a fair and equitable way. This government has a clear track record of treating immigrants callously and incompetently and there's no reason to think they'll suddenly stop being like that. 

You seem very complacent about it. Just because you wanted Brexit shouldn't mean pretending that really obvious problems like this are unimportant or, like you claimed in a post above, just people being scared by newspapers.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 30, 2020)

Will there be an open top bus ?

Anyway, it’s time to start thinking about the spread on this years UK Eurovision dirge.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I didn't say the settled status process was right wing and incompetent. It's annoying when you argue against something I haven't claimed. But so far it's very incompetent, like Frank just laid out above.
> 
> It's also impossible to know exactly what the process is really going to be like for EU citizens because it has only just started, and won't have any meaning until tomorrow when we officially leave.
> 
> ...



I must have read too much into your post . 

The process actually started last year , tomorrow is the transition year so nothing changes anyway .Here is the most recent update on progress re settled status The progress of the EU Settlement Scheme so far

I'm not sure I am complacent my  point is  that both the UK and the EU have agreed what essentially is a  a clear reciprocal agreement about protecting the rights of citizens .We should make all parties stick to it and afford assistance to those who for what ever reason find the processes difficult or problematic. which ever nationality they are and where ever they live.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> The Windrush scandal was appaulling however I honestly dont think it was motivated by a decision to leave the EU.If anything one of the issues around the EU was that it gave more right to citizens in the EU than it did to citizens of the Commonweath and former Commonwealth states.This was a particular issue cited by Asain and Black leavers.


I wouldn't overstate that particular case if I were you, given how few Asian or black leavers there actually were. Most Asian and black people voted remain, and not out of some love of Europe or sense of a wider EU nationality or any of that guff, but precisely because they feared a general rise in racism and xenophobia in the UK. That was a particular issue cited by Asian and black 'remainers', and there were a lot more of them than 'leavers'.

And of course the Windrush scandal wasn't motivated by the decision to leave the EU. It predates it. It was, however, very much motivated by the scapegoating of immigration and immigrants that has been happening throughout the Tory 'austerity' period, and that formed a big part of the 'leave' campaign. And that is very much an ongoing and _escalating_ process. We now have a prime minister who is nakedly racist and xenophobic, openly anti-immigrant (not just anti immigration, but anti immigrants, with their funny customs and cultures). And he has a big majority, and he has purged his party of what passed for its moderate wing. Just look at who is now Home Secretary.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I'm not sure I am complacent my  point is  that both the UK and the EU have agreed what essentially is a  a clear reciprocal agreement about protecting the rights of citizens .*We should make all parties stick to it *and afford assistance to those who for what ever reason find the processes difficult or problematic. which ever nationality they are and where ever they live.


How exactly do 'we' do that?


----------



## flypanam (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Yes they are right wing and incompetent  but what is  more right wing/incompetent about the settled status process compared to other residency processes in other countries?


Just from experience, the incompetency of the scheme comes from the fact that decision seems to be made primarily on the decision of an algorithm, which as we all know isn't neutral but carries the ideological baggage of its creator/writer.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I wouldn't overstate that particular case if I were you, given how few Asian or black leavers there actually were. Most Asian and black people voted remain, and not out of some love of Europe or sense of a wider EU nationality or any of that guff, but precisely because they feared a general rise in racism and xenophobia in the UK. That was a particular issue cited by Asian and black 'remainers', and there were a lot more of them than 'leavers'.


And that's exactly what happened with racist scumbags being emboldened by Brexit.  



> Ethnic minorities in Britain are facing rising and increasingly overt racism, with levels of discrimination and abuse continuing to grow in the wake of the Brexit referendum, nationwide research reveals.
> 
> Seventy-one percent of people from ethnic minorities now report having faced racial discrimination, compared with 58% in January 2016, before the EU vote, according to polling data seen by the Guardian.





> The survey by Opinium suggests racists are feeling increasingly confident in deploying overt abuse or discrimination. The proportion of people from an ethnic minority who said they had been targeted by a stranger rose from 64% in January 2016 to 76% in February this year, when the most recent polling was carried out of 1,006 people weighted to be nationally representative.
> 
> The trend appears in line with crime figures, which have shown that racially motivated hate crime has increased every year since 2013, doubling to 71,251 incidents in England and Wales in 2018, according to the Home Office.











						Racism rising since Brexit vote, nationwide study reveals
					

Survey shows 71% of people from ethnic minorities faced discrimination, up from 58%




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

editor said:


> And that's exactly what happened with racist scumbags being emboldened by Brexit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. Just as many of us on here were predicting before the vote. Yet somehow we're 'remoaners'. 

I've yet to hear anyone on here who backs this absurd bollocks come up with any kind of an answer tho this. Tough shit. Chuck em under the bus.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> You are probably one of the best examples of a remoaner tbh. .


So a bit of namecalling, instead of any kind of debate.

Figures.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes. Just as many of us on here were predicting before the vote. Yet somehow we're 'remoaners'.
> 
> I've yet to hear anyone on here who backs this absurd bollocks come up with any kind of an answer tho this. Tough shit. Chuck em under the bus.


It's always easier to fling a few insults around the place than to engage - and that's true of both sides. But yes - I am fairly appalled at the way that almost invariably, when I try to engage in a discussion with someone who's pro-Leave the debate either heads off into handwavery and generalities with no evidence, or namecalling. I would be really interested to hear someone who was pro-Leave actually offering some kind of factual basis for why it's better, and how life will be improved by it happening. In 3 years of Brexiting, it hasn't happened yet - at least that I've seen. And I am at least moderately capable of keeping an open mind some of the time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> both the UK and the EU have agreed what essentially is a  a clear reciprocal agreement about protecting the rights of citizens .


everyone knows how well the uk government looks after the rights of its own citizens, so it's clear how they'll look after the rights of those who aren't uk nationals


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

I look around me and despair at the moment, tbh.

I only really have one question.

Looking around at the world right now, how bad do things have to get before those who voted 'leave' admit that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't such a good idea?

And no, I'm not saying that a 'remain' vote would have solved all problems. It wouldn't. But I am saying that the 'leave' vote created all manner of new problems without solving a damn thing. And guess what, some of us 'remoaners' predicted just that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I look around me and despair at the moment, tbh.
> 
> I only really have one question.
> 
> ...


cassandra did it better


----------



## 8ball (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Looking around at the world right now, how bad do things have to get before those who voted 'leave' admit that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't such a good idea?



Let's put that question on hold til next April and see.


----------



## rekil (Jan 30, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Anyway, it’s time to start thinking about the spread on this years UK Eurovision dirge.


Send Morrissey.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

existentialist said:


> It's always easier to fling a few insults around the place than to engage - and that's true of both sides. But yes - I am fairly appalled at the way that almost invariably, when I try to engage in a discussion with someone who's pro-Leave the debate either heads off into handwavery and generalities with no evidence, or namecalling. I would be really interested to hear someone who was pro-Leave actually offering some kind of factual basis for why it's better, and how life will be improved by it happening. In 3 years of Brexiting, it hasn't happened yet - at least that I've seen. And I am at least moderately capable of keeping an open mind some of the time.



Some on here wanted brexit because they want to see the EU fail. 

I don't want the see the EU fail. I want to see it change, but not fail. It's easy to forget that nearly half of the countries in the EU have dictatorship in living memory, that countries with civil war in living memory are clamouring to join. Perspectives on EU collapse can be very different in those places. I would fear the collapse of the EU and its fallout. 

But setting that aside, even on those terms, they're being proved wrong. Those clamouring to join still want to join. If anything, Brexit has given the EU the opportunity to demonstrate the benefits of membership. It may emerge from this mess in a stronger position. Even that was a misjudgement. 

Other than that, I don't see any coherent argument for brexit.


----------



## andysays (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Some on here wanted brexit because they want to see the EU fail.
> 
> I don't want the see the EU fail. I want to see it change, but not fail. It's easy to forget that nearly half of the countries in the EU have dictatorship in living memory, that countries with civil war in living memory are clamouring to join. Perspectives on EU collapse can be very different in those places. I would fear the collapse of the EU and its fallout.
> 
> ...


So the fact that a majority voted for it in a referendum, and that both main parties accepted the result and fought the next GE on that basis doesn't constitute a coherent reason?

I agree that there will be problems with Brexit as it works out in practice but it's this sort of anti democratic bollocks which results in people being justly labelled Remoaners.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

andysays said:


> So the fact that a majority voted for it in a referendum, and that both main parties accepted the result and fought the next GE on that basis doesn't constitute a coherent reason?
> 
> I agree that there will be problems with Brexit as it works out in practice but it's this sort of anti democratic bollocks which results in people being justly labelled Remoaners.


_This brexit_ wasn't voted for in any referendum. _This brexit _with an end to free movement, an end to customs union, an end to alignment, the imposition of new borders, the imposition of new immigration restrictions, the imposition of new registers for foreigners. There was none of that in any referendum. The referendum said 'leave' therefore _any kind of leave_ is more democratic than not leaving - that's a deeply anti-democratic argument. And that even assuming that you accept that the referendum itself was the pinnacle of democracy, which I don't.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> How exactly do 'we' do that?


Well rather than moan about how terrible it is on here join a campaign ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> _This brexit_ wasn't voted for in any referendum. _This brexit _with an end to free movement, an end to customs union, an end to alignment, the imposition of new borders, the imposition of new immigration restrictions, the imposition of new registers for foreigners. There was none of that in any referendum. The referendum said 'leave' therefore _any kind of leave_ is more democratic than not leaving - that's a deeply anti-democratic argument.


it was endorsed in a general election. you may remember it.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 30, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> it was endorsed in a general election. you may remember it.



I thought that was people voting not to be herded into Jeremy Corbyn's death camps.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jan 30, 2020)

I went for a drink in Wetherspoons a while back, with quite a few other people. We’d been there for a long time when somebody told us that we would take a vote on going elsewhere. A slim majority voted to leave the pub, but lots of people didn’t vote (they were in the loo, outside for a ciggy, too sozzled etc) or they weren’t allowed to vote because they were too young, or even worse, foreign. The trouble is that some of those who voted to leave wanted to go to the Rose and Crown, others to the Blacksmiths arms, some for a pub crawl and some just wanted to go to the Co-op for some carry-outs. Years later some of those who voted have died, a whole lot more have grown up and can now legally buy alcohol, but their views aren’t counted. It’s raining outside. But we’ve been told by the landlord that we’ve got to leave because that’s democracy. Anyone else ever encountered such a bizarre situation?


----------



## not a trot (Jan 30, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I went for a drink in Wetherspoons a while back, with quite a few other people. We’d been there for a long time when somebody told us that we would take a vote on going elsewhere. A slim majority voted to leave the pub, but lots of people didn’t vote (they were in the loo, outside for a ciggy, too sozzled etc) or they weren’t allowed to vote because they were too young, or even worse, foreign. The trouble is that some of those who voted to leave wanted to go to the Rose and Crown, others to the Blacksmiths arms, some for a pub crawl and some just wanted to go to the Co-op for some carry-outs. Years later some of those who voted have died, a whole lot more have grown up and can now legally buy alcohol, but their views aren’t counted. It’s raining outside. But we’ve been told by the landlord that we’ve got to leave because that’s democracy. Anyone else ever encountered such a bizarre situation?



Anyone who votes to leave a weatherspoons is alright by me.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Looking around at the world right now, how bad do things have to get before those who voted 'leave' admit that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't such a good idea?



I think most people on both sides are unlikely to start changing their minds at this point - if Brexit is a massive success, which I think at this point means "things only being slightly more shit," Remainers are still going to say "I told you so" at every possible opportunity, and if it fails to deliver whatever the Tories claimed the benefits were going to be, Brexit enthusiasts will blame it on Remoaners diluting Brexit by moaning too much.


----------



## not a trot (Jan 30, 2020)

not a trot said:


> Anyone who votes to leave a weatherspoons is alright by me.



Whetherspoons, but who gives a fuck.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 30, 2020)

not a trot said:


> Whetherspoons, but who gives a fuck.



Whether spoons or what?


----------



## existentialist (Jan 30, 2020)

andysays said:


> So the fact that a majority voted for it in a referendum, and that both main parties accepted the result and fought the next GE on that basis doesn't constitute a coherent reason?


No. All that demonstrates is that more people wanted it than didn't: it says nothing about the rationale for doing it. Nor, even, that the decision to leave will achieve the things those who voted for it claim to want it to achieve.



andysays said:


> I agree that there will be problems with Brexit as it works out in practice but it's this sort of anti democratic bollocks which results in people being justly labelled Remoaners.


Bullshit. Saying a vote or a decision is flawed or wrong is "anti-democratic" is just idiocy.

Remember, after all, that Hitler got voted into power. Would it have been "anti-democratic" to call out the National Socialist party for its actions and views, too?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I wouldn't overstate that particular case if I were you, given how few Asian or black leavers there actually were. Most Asian and black people voted remain, and not out of some love of Europe or sense of a wider EU nationality or any of that guff, but precisely because they feared a general rise in racism and xenophobia in the UK. That was a particular issue cited by Asian and black 'remainers', and there were a lot more of them than 'leavers'.
> 
> And of course the Windrush scandal wasn't motivated by the decision to leave the EU. It predates it. It was, however, very much motivated by the scapegoating of immigration and immigrants that has been happening throughout the Tory 'austerity' period, and that formed a big part of the 'leave' campaign. And that is very much an ongoing and _escalating_ process. We now have a prime minister who is nakedly racist and xenophobic, openly anti-immigrant (not just anti immigration, but anti immigrants, with their funny customs and cultures). And he has a big majority, and he has purged his party of what passed for its moderate wing. Just look at who is now Home Secretary.


A third of Asian and black people voted leave, dunno exactly what the figures work out in hundreds of thousands but I'd say not just a few.  In fact there are many examples of leave voting areas with substantial BAME populations   Slough, Bradford, Luton,  even in London Hillingdon . Research into motivation for BAME leave voters revealed sovereignty  , control of borders, anti muslim attitudes in Europe and unfair discrimination in immigration as factors. The issue about motivation of BAME remain voters was mainly influenced by  the justified perception that the Tory and UKIP led leave campaign was racist, it wasnt a vote to endorse the EU. Of course if Labour had fought the referendum on a pro working class position of leave the space for such a racist campaign by the Tories and UKIP would have been squeezed. Instead they not only  surrenderd the ground to the racists and the right but ended up labelling leavers as racist and then by calling for a second referendum put the  'nakedly racist and xenophobic, openly anti-immigrant ' prime minister into office. You get what you sow.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

existentialist said:


> No. All that demonstrates is that more people wanted it than didn't: it says nothing about the rationale for doing it. Nor, even, that the decision to leave will achieve the things those who voted for it claim to want it to achieve.
> 
> 
> Bullshit. Saying a vote or a decision is flawed or wrong is "anti-democratic" is just idiocy.
> ...


Hitler=Johnson


----------



## scifisam (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I must have read too much into your post .
> 
> The process actually started last year , tomorrow is the transition year so nothing changes anyway .Here is the most recent update on progress re settled status The progress of the EU Settlement Scheme so far
> 
> I'm not sure I am complacent my  point is  that both the UK and the EU have agreed what essentially is a  a clear reciprocal agreement about protecting the rights of citizens .We should make all parties stick to it and afford assistance to those who for what ever reason find the processes difficult or problematic. which ever nationality they are and where ever they live.



Yes, the process started last year - that means it's only just started. It's still a new thing. And has no real effect until tomorrow. 

We should make both parties stick to it? If the Tories decide not to, they won't. After Windrush, Grenfell, and Johnson's out and out racist remarks, the Tories _increased_ their vote. If they decide to shaft a few more dirty foreigners there won't be anything we can do to stop them, and a significant proportion of the population will back them. You're delusional if you think "we" have any power to make them do anything.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2020)

andysays said:


> So the fact that a majority voted for it in a referendum, and that both main parties accepted the result and fought the next GE on that basis doesn't constitute a coherent reason?
> 
> I agree that there will be problems with Brexit as it works out in practice but it's this sort of anti democratic bollocks which results in people being justly labelled Remoaners.


So you think that the simplistic non-binding vote - and the well-funded misinformation campaigns behind it - was some kind of poster boy for the democratic process?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 30, 2020)

andysays said:


> So the fact that a majority voted for it in a referendum, and that both main parties accepted the result and fought the next GE on that basis doesn't constitute a coherent reason?
> 
> I agree that there will be problems with Brexit as it works out in practice but it's this sort of anti democratic bollocks which results in people being justly labelled Remoaners.


So the Tory party won the last election, does that mean I have to support them?. Is that how it works?.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> So the Tory party won the last election, does that mean I have to support them?. Is that how it works?.


You should have a picture of Boris Johnson above your mantelpiece.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> A third of Asian and black people voted leave, dunno exactly what the figures work out in hundreds of thousands but I'd say not just a few.  In fact there are many examples of leave voting areas with substantial BAME populations   Slough, Bradford, Luton,  even in London Hillingdon . Research into motivation for BAME leave voters revealed sovereignty  , control of borders, anti muslim attitudes in Europe and unfair discrimination in immigration as factors. The issue about motivation of BAME remain voters was mainly influenced by  the justified perception that the Tory and UKIP led leave campaign was racist, it wasnt a vote to endorse the EU. Of course if Labour had fought the referendum on a pro working class position of leave the space for such a racist campaign by the Tories and UKIP would have been squeezed. Instead they not only  surrenderd the ground to the racists and the right but ended up labelling leavers as racist and then by calling for a second referendum put the  'nakedly racist and xenophobic, openly anti-immigrant ' prime minister into office. You get what you sow.


It's certainly fair to say that elements of the Leave campaigns were content to stoke and harvest BAME resentment about the immigration regime they & theirs face compared with the FoM for predominantly white EU nationals.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> It's certainly fair to say that elements of the Leave campaigns were content to stoke and harvest BAME resentment about the immigration regime they & theirs face compared with the FoM for predominantly white EU nationals.


And given that remain outnumbered leave by around 2 to 1 among that section of the population, I think it's fair to say that it didn't work very well.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And given that remain outnumbered leave by around 2 to 1 among that section of the population, I think it's fair to say that it didn't work very well.


In bald terms, yes, but that's quite a one-dimensional view. 
Given the overwhelmingly urban/metropolitan context for the vast majority of the BAME vote, 1/3 L might be regarded as working very well. In such a marginal result...every little helped, no?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Yes, the process started last year - that means it's only just started. It's still a new thing. And has no real effect until tomorrow.
> 
> We should make both parties stick to it? If the Tories decide not to, they won't. After Windrush, Grenfell, and Johnson's out and out racist remarks, the Tories _increased_ their vote. If they decide to shaft a few more dirty foreigners there won't be anything we can do to stop them, and a significant proportion of the population will back them. You're delusional if you think "we" have any power to make them do anything.


I'm not convinced that the Tories have any motivation to alter the settled status scheme which is part of the withdrawal agreement and there is still all of this year untill the deadline and its been suggested that there might even be a further grace period of six months after that.  I suppose your last sentence hits on the difference between me and you then. If I feel strongly about something then I try and do something about it with others who feel the same way.


----------



## MrSki (Jan 30, 2020)

I


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> In bald terms, yes, but that's quite a one-dimensional view.
> Given the overwhelmingly urban/metropolitan context for the vast majority of the BAME vote, 1/3 L might be regarded as working very well. In such a marginal result...every little helped, no?


Why? They're also more likely to be working class and to have reason to feel fucked over and alienated by the current system. Yet taken as a crudely drawn group, they were _way out _from the national average. 

That's a massive stretch.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2020)

MrSki said:


> I



A racist cunt celebrating another racist cunt in the name of Brexit. All rather fitting.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why? They're also more likely to be working class and to have reason to feel fucked over and alienated by the current system. Yet taken as a crudely drawn group, they were _way out _from the national average.
> 
> That's a massive stretch.


Yes, but given the result was based on the single 'national' constituency, and Leave won...it's not a massive stretch to say that the BAME L vote worked perfectly well for the Leave campaigners.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You should have a picture of Boris Johnson above your mantelpiece.


It's the will of the people!.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Yes, but given the result was based on the single 'national' constituency, and Leave won...it's not a massive stretch to say that the BAME L vote worked perfectly well for the Leave campaigners.


That's misusing the stats. It's like pointing at the 5 per cent black women in the US who voted for Trump and saying that their votes helped. It's a mad conclusion to take from the result - the conclusion to take from the result is that Trump won despite failing miserably among black people in general and black women in particular. It's not so different here albeit with less extreme numbers - leave still won despite failing to persuade the majority of BAME people that leave was a good idea, even when the poor and marginalised are over-represented in that grouping and it ought to provide fertile ground for feeding resentment against the status quo.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's misusing the stats. It's like pointing at the 5 per cent black women in the US who voted for Trump and saying that their votes helped. It's a mad conclusion to take from the result - the conclusion to take from the result is that Trump won despite failing miserably among black people in general and black women in particular. It's not so different here albeit with less extreme numbers - leave still won despite failing to persuade the majority of BAME people that leave was a good idea, even when the poor and marginalised are over-represented in that grouping and it ought to provide fertile ground for feeding resentment against the status quo.


Fair points and it is, of course, all academic without first having some inkling of what % BAME target the Leave campaigns hoped to achieve with their lines about the unfairness of EU FoM vrs the hostile environment.
That said, 30% or whatever it was...was enough.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Hitler=Johnson


I'm not saying that. The fact that you are, or are trying to imply that I am, doesn't speak all that well for your argument.


----------



## souljacker (Jan 30, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I went for a drink in Wetherspoons a while back, with quite a few other people. We’d been there for a long time when somebody told us that we would take a vote on going elsewhere. A slim majority voted to leave the pub, but lots of people didn’t vote (they were in the loo, outside for a ciggy, too sozzled etc) or they weren’t allowed to vote because they were too young, or even worse, foreign. The trouble is that some of those who voted to leave wanted to go to the Rose and Crown, others to the Blacksmiths arms, some for a pub crawl and some just wanted to go to the Co-op for some carry-outs. Years later some of those who voted have died, a whole lot more have grown up and can now legally buy alcohol, but their views aren’t counted. It’s raining outside. But we’ve been told by the landlord that we’ve got to leave because that’s democracy. Anyone else ever encountered such a bizarre situation?



One thing that hopefully Friday will sort out, is that we won't get any more of these wank analogies.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Fair points and it is, of course, all academic without first having some inkling of what % BAME target the Leave campaigns hoped to achieve with their lines about the unfairness of EU FoM vrs the hostile environment.
> That said, 30% or whatever it was...was enough.


Looking at the numbers, it is true that if _every single BAME voter_ had voted remain, then remain might have squeaked home. That only really shows how close the vote was, though, given we're talking about a sub-group of less than 10 per cent of the population.

But this isn't even like the trump situation. This is voting on an idea rather than a person, and any grouping with more than 2-1 in either direction on an idea like that is very significant. That's the story told by brexit - that the uk is divided and polarised along a number of different intersecting lines, relating to, among other things, ethnicity, class, geography, property, and age. And the brexit process thus far has only served to widen those divides.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jan 30, 2020)

souljacker said:


> One thing that hopefully Friday will sort out, is that we won't get any more of these wank analogies.


I wouldn’t bet on it


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 30, 2020)

I did go down to see the SODEM lot btw, but there weren't many people there around lunchtime. Didn't even finish a roll.

Apparently there are some daytime marches tomorrow.




			
				TFL traffic news said:
			
		

> Westminster –  From 14:00 on Friday 31 January, a group will form at Richmond Terrace for a demonstration. From 15:00, they will march to St John Smith Square via Parliament Square, Abingdon Street and Millbank until 17:00.
> 
> From 14:00 on Friday 31 January, a group will form up at Park Lane for a demonstration. Then at 14:30, they will march to Whitehall via Hyde Park Corner, Piccadilly, Piccadilly Circus, Regent Street, Pall Mall and Cockspur Street until 20:00.
> 
> Parliament Square – From 20:30 until 23:59 on Friday 31 January, a group will form up at Parliament Square for a demonstration.



Also there will definitely be people at Parliament Square before the big Nige bong bash in the evening.


----------



## andysays (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> _This brexit_ wasn't voted for in any referendum. _This brexit _with an end to free movement, an end to customs union, an end to alignment, the imposition of new borders, the imposition of new immigration restrictions, the imposition of new registers for foreigners. There was none of that in any referendum. The referendum said 'leave' therefore _any kind of leave_ is more democratic than not leaving - that's a deeply anti-democratic argument. And that even assuming that you accept that the referendum itself was the pinnacle of democracy, which I don't.


It's interesting to see you and other remain supporters continuing to re-use all the same old arguments yet again, but essentially it appears to boil down to a rejection of democracy when it produces a result you don't like and, as an extension of that, a rejection of the right of those who disagree with you on this issue to have their voices listened to.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 30, 2020)

Oh come on, have we not done this enough in the past three and a half years?


----------



## andysays (Jan 30, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Oh come on, have we not done this enough in the past three and a half years?


Apparently not, judging from the recent comments of various remain supporters.

Maybe they're still hoping for the great unwashed masses wake up to how they've got it all wrong and the cancellation of Brexit at the eleventh hour...


----------



## two sheds (Jan 30, 2020)

Has anyone done "bourgeois democracy: spit" yet?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

andysays said:


> It's interesting to see you and other remain supporters continuing to re-use all the same old arguments yet again, but essentially it appears to boil down to a rejection of democracy when it produces a result you don't like and, as an extension of that, a rejection of the right of those who disagree with you on this issue to have their voices listened to.


You started  with 'the same old arguments'. Only surprised you didn't wheel out the 17.4 million trump card.

And you don't address any of the points I make in my post. You're also way off wrt what I've been saying over the years. I've been pretty consistent in saying that some kind of Norway+ brexit-lite would be about the fairest reflection of the referendum result, and that I would have accepted the Common Market 2 solution put forward last year as a sensible compromise (not that I have any say whatsoever in the matter - you seem to forget that when you accuse me and others of 'rejecting democracy'). As would a fair few brexit voters, btw, given that by no means everyone who voted for brexit was voting to leave the common market - for many older voters, that's the bit they wanted to keep, as you would know if you'd bothered to dig a bit deeper into this mess.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 30, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I went for a drink in Wetherspoons a while back, with quite a few other people. We’d been there for a long time when somebody told us that we would take a vote on going elsewhere. A slim majority voted to leave the pub, but lots of people didn’t vote (they were in the loo, outside for a ciggy, too sozzled etc) or they weren’t allowed to vote because they were too young, or even worse, foreign. The trouble is that some of those who voted to leave wanted to go to the Rose and Crown, others to the Blacksmiths arms, some for a pub crawl and some just wanted to go to the Co-op for some carry-outs. Years later some of those who voted have died, a whole lot more have grown up and can now legally buy alcohol, but their views aren’t counted. It’s raining outside. But we’ve been told by the landlord that we’ve got to leave because that’s democracy. Anyone else ever encountered such a bizarre situation?




In three and a half years of shit Brexit analogies, that has to be the worst I have heard, good going.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 30, 2020)

not a trot said:


> Whetherspoons, but who gives a fuck.



Nope, Wetherspoons.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 30, 2020)

Pointless rehashing the same arguments over and over again. Let’s look forward to the future and massed civil disobedience and  blood on the streets as the smug Tory cunts get what they really deserve


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 30, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Pointless rehashing the same arguments over and over again. Let’s look forward to the future and massed civil disobedience and  blood on the streets as the smug Tory cunts get what they really deserve



There will be no civil disobedience and the tories are in charge for the foreseeable.

Show me an active lexit and I’ll sign up but it looks very much like the forces happy being dickheads and backing corporations and hate are in charge.


----------



## Anju (Jan 30, 2020)

One of the main benefits of Brexit is that we can bring back Spangles without any interference from the EU.

Other than that it's proceeding just as it was always going to. Tory Brexit for Tory people. Fuck foreigners, poor people and bye bye NHS as we know it. 10 years is plenty of time for them to achieve every disgusting little entry on their wishlist of deregulation and privatisation. 


There's a whole new section of society in Britain, urban, multicultural, creative, independent. It's something that has developed within communities that have suffered worse treatment over a longer time frame than the northern towns that turned Tory. It's the real threat to those in power, driving change in ways they can't understand or control. People empowered through identity politics now reaching the point where they're able to push against structural inequalities yet the left leavers were content to throw us under the bus and since the referendum have essentially ignored our existence, preferring too focus on the 'liberal elite', one of whom I'm yet to meet. 

As an example of who/what I mean, there is a thread on Urban about Peckham Town FC. Bryan who runs the club started out running an inter estate football league many years ago. As well as having an immediate positive effect on the kids he used to help, he'd be out picking them up every weekend, mediating disputes, dealing with parents, he works at South Bank university now and even got a scholarship for players there. He's been properly beaten by police twice and maliciously prosecuted for assault on an officer yet now sits in meetings advising them. He's broken out of the role assigned to him and done it totally on his own terms and the people who see him achieve this will do the same themselves. 

We're not remoaners, just people who saw what we have built being attacked and left leavers were complicit in that attack, choosing to ignore the impact on millions of people on the off chance that the EU might crumble or, despite no election being scheduled, we might have a Labour government. 

That someone would trumpet any aspect of the withdrawal agreement as proof of anything is ridiculous. We're about to go into negotiations with a much more powerful organisation and to save face the government will end up using whatever leverage they think they have, including people's lives. They signaled their intentions when they tried to remove protections for child refugees but hey don't worry it'll all be Ok.We'll get a shit deal, abandon anyone who gets in the way and end up stuck between the US and China unable to defend ourselves. It's already happening with Huwei. 

What's about to happen to people less able to defend themselves in this country has nothing to do with people who voted remain and continue to view it as a dangerous power grab and move to the right. I don't think those who voted leave or abstained can say the same. 

I'm extra fucked off today because I met a man yesterday who is being killed by universal credit, spending his rent money on drink because he's supposed to be learning to manage his money rather than direct payment to his landlord. If remain had won it seems reasonable to believe that our next government post Cameron would have been labour, having not been held back by the remain/leave issue and he would be hopefully getting his benefits in a different format and possibly some help with addiction.

A bit rambly, probably normal for me on politics but I can't believe there are lexity people still going on as if they didn't totally fuck up their reading of the referendum and the consequences of a leave victory.  The lack of self awareness is fox like.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

Anju said:


> I can't believe there are lexity people still going on as if they didn't totally fuck up their reading of the referendum and the consequences of a leave victory.


Yep, this.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 30, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> In three and a half years of shit Brexit analogies, that has to be the worst I have heard, good going.



You should see my Facebook feed.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 30, 2020)

andysays said:


> It's interesting to see you and other remain supporters continuing to re-use all the same old arguments yet again, but essentially it appears to boil down to a rejection of democracy when it produces a result you don't like and, as an extension of that, a rejection of the right of those who disagree with you on this issue to have their voices listened to.


AS someone else has pointed out, that whole tawdry referendum was hardly the pinnacle of democracy. Criticising a shoddily-run simplistic vote on a complex topic, whose campaigning plumbed new depths of dubious half-lying (and some outright lying) is not quite the same as "rejecting democracy", any more than criticising a particularly third-rate B-side by some obscure indie band is "rejecting music".


----------



## kenny g (Jan 30, 2020)

editor said:


> Expect many [] bald, red faced middle aged men shouting.



Sounds like me most mornings looking for my socks.  I suppose dreadlocked pale faced late middle aged men shouting is a lot better?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2020)

andysays said:


> It's interesting to see you and other remain supporters continuing to re-use all the same old arguments yet again, but essentially it appears to boil down to a rejection of democracy when it produces a result you don't like and, as an extension of that, a rejection of the right of those who disagree with you on this issue to have their voices listened to.


It's like the let's get brexit done general election had never happened, the master liberal always makes one fatal error and lbj's is thinking he knows what he's talking about


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

existentialist said:


> AS someone else has pointed out, that whole tawdry referendum was hardly the pinnacle of democracy. Criticising a shoddily-run simplistic vote on a complex topic, whose campaigning plumbed new depths of dubious half-lying (and some outright lying) is not quite the same as "rejecting democracy", any more than criticising a particularly third-rate B-side by some obscure indie band is "rejecting music".


But if the result had been remain no doubt you’d have been up in arms about the tawdry simplistic vote on a complex subject ?


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> But if the result had been remain no doubt you’d have been up in arms about the tawdry simplistic vote on a complex subject ?


I could be wrong but I don't recall a big 'Remain' bus driving around the country with an almighty lie about the supposed incoming immense benefits to the NHS emblazoned all over it?


----------



## scifisam (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> But if the result had been remain no doubt you’d have been up in arms about the tawdry simplistic vote on a complex subject ?



Don't know about him, but I would have thought it was a tawdry simplistic vote, yeah. It was a fucking shambles, with lots of outright lies on the leave side, plus a fair amount of xenophobia, and lots of really patronising talking down to the stupid proles on the remain side. Like Frank, I partly voted remain because I didn't want to leave under a Tory govt, but some of the stuff I heard about anyone who had any issues with the EU was so insulting it almost made me want to vote leave just to fuck those superior arseholes off.

(I think I would have voted remain even under a Labour govt, but I'm not certain. I definitely would have considered arguments in favour, whereas leaving under the Tories was always a no-go for me). 

And it was far too rushed; it was pushed through as an advisory referendum - and yes it was, you know that - despite in reality being nothing like that. So it left "remoaners" with a technicality to "moan" about and meant that some people didn't really take the referendum very seriously. It was treated almost like a vote for Strictly Come Dancing in some spheres, on both sides of the debate.

The main difference is, if remain had won, it would still have been an advisory referendum, and in ten years or less we could have had the vote to leave again, so voting remain was never permanent, whereas voting leave is. Kinda like Scotland voting to leave the UK - hopefully that referendum will be re-run and leave will win; at least there is the option to re-run it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> But if the result had been remain no doubt you’d have been up in arms about the tawdry simplistic vote on a complex subject ?


Can't speak for anybody else, but if the result had been 52/48 the other way and people had been advocating a radical extension of European integration using that result as justification, I would have pointed out that a close result indicating that nearly half of the population didn't want to be in the EU at all was not a mandate for such a thing.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 30, 2020)

God there's been some shit posted on this thread lately hadn't there. Creative communities, wtf.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 30, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Remember, after all, that Hitler got voted into power. Would it have been "anti-democratic" to call out the National Socialist party for its actions and views, too?


Did he? When did that happen then?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 30, 2020)

Yeah that one was bad, the one pitting some mythical 'creative' working class communities against other working class communities was even worse, fucks sake


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

I was over near Bishop Auckland two weeks ago , this was one of the places that went Tory. If I’d have known at the time I would have told the locals that they weren’t ‘urban, multicultural, creative, independent’ enough. That sort of advice would have turned the place around transforming it and ensuring a future Labour regain.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 30, 2020)

Ellen Meiskins Wood said:
			
		

> Revolutionary socialism has traditionally placed the working class and its struggles at the heart of social transformation and the building of socialism, not simply as an act of faith but as a conclusion based upon a comprehensive analysis of social relations and power. In the first place, this conclusion is based on the historical/materialist principle which places the relations of production at the centre of social life and regards their exploitative character as the root of social and political oppression. The proposition that the working class is potentially _the_ revolutionary class is not some metaphysical abstraction but an extension of these materialist principles, ...... the working class is the one social force that has a strategic social power sufficient to permit its development into a revolutionary force. Underlying this analysis is an emancipatory vision which looks forward to the disalienation of power at every level of human endeavour, from the creative power of labour to the political power of the state.


^That is reason why people can't "move on" because the conflict is not between remain and leave (at least not on these boards) it is between competing political ideologies - one a socialism based on the power of labour, the other(s) a liberalism/social democracy/'true' socailism that at best is focused on party political power, at worst attainment of office.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 30, 2020)

just maybe if we could of shown them this 2 weeks ago

Cuts to council offices shake-up leave Bishop Auckland 'short-changed'


won't be the last time i've retorted to tory voters "and you trusted them"


or how about 100 billion to HS2 which is going to cost 200 billion or more


but got to keep business happy


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> just maybe if we could of shown them this 2 weeks ago
> 
> Cuts to council offices shake-up leave Bishop Auckland 'short-changed'
> 
> ...


Fuck business


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 30, 2020)

300 million to the NHS


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2020)

I am going to celebrate by putting in an application for a new passport as it seems I'm going to need it.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2020)

Politicians are supposed to unite and lead a country. This Brexit omnishambles has turned communities against each other, given a free pass for racist smegbubbles to rise to the surface, made non-British born people feel uncomfortable in the country they've contributed to, and all this division and hate will last a generation at least. Fuck Brexit, Fuck Farage, Fuck racists and Fuck that festering pile of toffjuice Cameron for trying to save his worthless career by launching us on this self destructive trajectory.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> just maybe if we could of shown them this 2 weeks ago
> 
> Cuts to council offices shake-up leave Bishop Auckland 'short-changed'
> 
> ...


Labour Council implementing the cuts and have done for decades.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> If looks
> 
> Labour Council implementing the cuts and have done for decades.



not 2 weeks after an election

I'd of posted a more recent link if i was not trying to make a point they lied to the people of the north


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

editor said:


> Politicians are supposed to unite and lead a country. This Brexit omnishambles has turned communities against each other, given a free pass for racist smegbubbles to rise to the surface, made non-British born people feel uncomfortable in the country they've contributed to, and all this division and hate will last a generation at least. Fuck Brexit, Fuck Farage, Fuck racists and Fuck that festering pile of toffjuice Cameron for trying to save his worthless career by launching us on this self destructive trajectory.


Well that’ll unite the country


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 30, 2020)

editor said:


> Politicians are supposed to unite and lead a country.


Bloody hell. Another proving of Proper Tidy's point.
Seriously you, as someone who views himself as a socialist, believe the above? 
This is not just naive, it's utterly ahistorical.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Bloody hell. Another proving of Proper Tidy's point.
> Seriously you, as someone who views himself as a socialist, believe the above?
> This is not just naive, it's utterly ahistorical.


It's what people think they're voting for and it's what politicians say they're going to do.

That's not the same as believing them.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 30, 2020)

editor said:


> Fuck Brexit, Fuck Farage, Fuck racists and Fuck that festering pile of toffjuice Cameron for trying to save his worthless career by launching us on this self destructive trajectory.



Cameron is probably feeling now reasonably pleased with how things turned out - the whole point of calling the referendum was to unite the Conservative Party and after a bumpy few years, it's been a success, though probably not in the way he expected. Britain's EU membership has now become an issue that splits the Labour Party, not the Tories, and we'll probably see a few more Conservative victories from it. Wouldn't surprise me if Labour got desperate enough to bring Tony fucking Blair back for the next election on the basis that he'll have been the only Labour leader to have actually won an election in the preceding 20 years.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 30, 2020)

I'm reading this thread at the same time as Wood's_ The Retreat from Class_ and you could hardly imagine a better case study of for Wood's arguments



			
				 Ellen Meiksins Wood said:
			
		

> It is, in the first place, self-evident that we cannot claim a direct empirical transposition of these conflicts from the economic to the party-political plane. The opposition between the Conservative and Labour parties, for example, does not neatly coincide with the conflicts between capitalist employers and their wage-earning employees, either in the sense that the personnel in the two cases are identical or in the sense that the political programmes of each party are entirely coextensive and commensurate with the needs and purposes of one of the protagonists in the ‘economic’ conflict to the exclusion of or at the expense of the other. This proposition is almost too trivial to be worth stating; but it is not altogether clear that, in the end, the fundamental theoretical tenet of the NTS amounts to much more than this.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Wouldn't surprise me if Labour got desperate enough to bring Tony fucking Blair back for the next election on the basis that he'll have been the only Labour leader to have actually won an election in the preceding 20 years.


Pleasegodno.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 30, 2020)

editor said:


> It's what people think they're voting for and it's what politicians say they're going to do.


Well the first I contest, the last two elections have been marked by sharper divisions than since the beginning of the 90s.
But regardless there is no need to except the claims of politicians, which judging them on their ability to "unite and lead a country" implicitly does.

EDIT: In fact to say that voters think that they are voting for someone who is "supposed to unite and lead a country" is particularly strange at this moment in time where, across much of the world, we are seeing voters clearly, and quite intentionally, turn towards politicians that sharpen divisions - Corbyn, Johnson, Trump, Macron, Sanders, Le Pen, Orban, Salvini, etc


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2020)

Here's an intelligent analysis of the Brexit lies and reality. And it's as depressing as fuck (it's from Nov 2018 but still seems relevant)


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2020)

MrSki said:


> I



A slice of time.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> ^That is reason why people can't "move on" because the conflict is not between remain and leave (at least not on these boards) it is between competing political ideologies - one a socialism based on the power of labour, the other(s) a liberalism/social democracy/'true' socailism that at best is focused on party political power, at worst attainment of office.


That quote is entirely irrelevant to most of this. In terms of the material reality that is in the here and now, everything is getting shitter for a great many people, and thus far brexit has only made everything worse, including dividing people to such an extent that a shitcunt like Boris Johnson is able to seize power. 

Which political forces have been made more powerful in this process? You appear to be posting from a different planet from the one I live on. I live in the world where homelessness is endemic, where people are dying every day for lack of proper social or health care, in which the rich continue to get richer and in which there has been a power grab by the populist right, for whom certain sections of the working class have just voted in significant numbers despite a full decade of vicious cuts from that very same political group. You talk as if a glorious revolution were around the corner. It's really not.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 30, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> ^That is reason why people can't "move on" because the conflict is not between remain and leave (at least not on these boards) it is between competing political ideologies - one a socialism based on the power of labour, the other(s) a liberalism/social democracy/'true' socailism that at best is focused on party political power, at worst attainment of office.



That might well be true but the vast majority of voters wouldn't have a clue what you're talking about. I'm not even sure who you're agreeing or disagreeing with.


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## seeformiles (Jan 30, 2020)

Someone sent me this little ditty


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That quote is entirely irrelevant to most of this. In terms of the material reality that is in the here and now, everything is getting shitter for a great many people, and thus far brexit has only made everything worse, including dividing people to such an extent that a shitcunt like Boris Johnson is able to seize power.
> 
> Which political forces have been made more powerful in this process? You appear to be posting from a different planet from the one I live on. I live in the world where homelessness is endemic, where people are dying every day for lack of proper social or health care, in which the rich continue to get richer and in which there has been a power grab by the populist right, for whom certain sections of the working class have just voted in significant numbers despite a full decade of vicious cuts from that very same political group. You talk as if a glorious revolution were around the corner. It's really not.


You say that quote is irrelevant and then say we are posting from different planets - which only supports my argument. 
Yet again you've not bothered reading what is actually being said. I talk about the focus of party politics over class politics and you reply that Johnson is in power. Like I said a division between interest politics and view politics. As for the last sentence I've never made any such claim.


----------



## Supine (Jan 30, 2020)

I don't mind being labelled a remainer. Better than be labelled a leaver cunt. Brexit is the stupidest thing to happen in my lifetime.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> You say that quote is irrelevant and then say we are posting from different planets - which rather supports my argument. As for the rest, well yet again you've not bothered reading what is actually being said. I talk about the focus of party politics over class politics and you reply that Johnson is in power. Like I said a division between interest politics and view politics. As for the last sentence I've never made any such claim.


Like I said, the quote is entirely irrelevant. You want to talk about something else. Fine. Talk about something else. But you ignore this planet, the one we're actually on, at your peril. Significant numbers of working class people have just voted in a populist r/w govt. That matters to your analysis, however disdainful of party politics you might be. What you speak of is a million miles from where we are now.

And I didn't say that you had made that claim. I said that you talk as if that were the case. Cos you do.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 30, 2020)

scifisam said:


> That might well be true but the vast majority of voters wouldn't have a clue what you're talking about. I'm not even sure who you're agreeing or disagreeing with.


I'm "agreeing" with those that construct their socialism based on class regardless of how they voted in the referendum, or since. I'm "agreeing" with those that want to organise around _interests_ rather than _views__. _ 
From another thread


redsquirrel said:


> Or to put it in crude terms - a worker who holds reactionary opinions about immigrants may be a dick but they are still a worker, their class interest are still aligned with mine (and presumably yours). A boss may be lovely and progressive, may be implementing all kinds of policies that tackle discrimination, inequality and even workplace democracy but at a fundamental level their interests are in opposition to those of their workers.


----------



## pogofish (Jan 30, 2020)

Anju said:


> One of the main benefits of Brexit is that we can bring back Spangles without any interference from the EU.



Spangles and indeed many other classic “English” sweets couldn’t exist without the interference of Berlin chemists...!


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Like I said, the quote is entirely irrelevant. You want to talk about something else. Fine. Talk about something else. But you ignore this planet, the one we're actually on, at your peril. Significant numbers of working class people have just voted in a populist r/w govt. That matters to your analysis, however disdainful of party politics you might be. What you speak of is a million miles from where we are now.
> 
> And I didn't say that you had made that claim. I said that you talk as if that were the case. Cos you do.


Amazing, you really could be lifted directly from the pages of the _Retreat from Class_.



			
				Ellen Meiksins Wood said:
			
		

> In the Communist Manifesto, ‘true’ socialism is summed up thus: since socialism had ‘ceased to express the struggle of one class against another, … [the ‘true’ socialist] felt conscious of … representing, not true requirements, but the requirements of Truth; not the interests of the proletariat, but the interests of Human Nature, of Man in general, who belongs to no class, has no reality, who exists only in the misty realm of philosophical fantasy.


For academic interest do you even consider yourself a socialist anymore?


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## tommers (Jan 30, 2020)

I was expecting a discussion about what a great time we're all going to have tomorrow.


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## tommers (Jan 30, 2020)

Do you even lift bro?


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## Supine (Jan 30, 2020)

tommers said:


> I was expecting a discussion about what a great time we're all going to have tomorrow.



my bong is ready


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## two sheds (Jan 30, 2020)

ready to chime 13?


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## scifisam (Jan 30, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm "agreeing" with those that construct their socialism based on class regardless of how they voted in the referendum, or since. I'm "agreeing" with those that want to organise around _interests_ rather than _views__. _
> From another thread



OK.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 30, 2020)

Brexit will fuck the tories again btw. There is no doubt about this. The greatest thing about the ref results was the toxic shit bomb that went off in the political class and it will keep on fucking them up for years


----------



## Azrael (Jan 30, 2020)

existentialist said:


> [...] I would be really interested to hear someone who was pro-Leave actually offering some kind of factual basis for why it's better, and how life will be improved by it happening. In 3 years of Brexiting, it hasn't happened yet - at least that I've seen. And I am at least moderately capable of keeping an open mind some of the time.


My own reasons would be prioritizing sovereignty, but I recognize that argument means nothing to people who couldn't care less about the underlying principle, or who actively prefer supranationalism.

I can give tangible examples like the European arrest warrant, which allows a continental prosecutor to seize British citizens with only the most rudimentary domestic safeguards, but again, many wouldn't have a problem, or would view it as a reasonable trade-off to finally be able to get custody of suspects from countries that otherwise refuse to extradite their own citizens. They're not wrong, either: it does. We simply prioritize different things.

Regardless, as a pragmatist, I'd only have supported secession if I believed that the campaign was led by competent and decent people who'd actually deliver what they promised, which is why I ended up voting Remain, and have never regretted the decision.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 30, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Brexit will fuck the tories again btw. There is no doubt about this. The greatest thing about the ref results was the toxic shit bomb that went off in the political class and it will keep on fucking them up for years


Again? At what point did brexit fuck the tories the first time? It came close to fucking them, I'll grant you that, but they came through the other side with a big parliamentary majority that is extremely beholden to the leader, whose position is currently unassailable, and who has five years in power to look forward to. The only way brexit fucks the tories from this point is if brexit fucks Britain. And fuck knows what that will bring with it. It's unlikely to be good.

If anything, you could argue that brexit has finally solved Europe for the tories, for the time being at least.


----------



## Supine (Jan 30, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Brexit will fuck the tories again btw. There is no doubt about this. The greatest thing about the ref results was the toxic shit bomb that went off in the political class and it will keep on fucking them up for years



You do realise they keep winning throughout this don't you?


----------



## Anju (Jan 30, 2020)

pogofish said:


> Spangles and indeed many other classic “English” sweets couldn’t exist without the interference of Berlin chemists...!


So that's why my childhood was so much fun.


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## Artaxerxes (Jan 30, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I am going to celebrate by putting in an application for a new passport as it seems I'm going to need it.



Luckily we got red ones the year of the ref so we don't have to stress about the right shade of blue for a while


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2020)

editor said:


> Politicians are supposed to unite and lead a country.


lead yes unite no


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## Cadmus (Jan 30, 2020)

Azrael said:


> I can give tangible examples like the European arrest warrant, which allows a continental prosecutor to seize British citizens with only the most rudimentary domestic safeguards, but again, many wouldn't have a problem, or would view it as a reasonable trade-off to finally be able to get custody of suspects from countries that otherwise refuse to extradite their own citizens.


An accusation European arrest warrant in continental systems is borne out of an investigation which is usually overseen by a investigative judge, who tests evidence prior to an indictment being preferred. As a result, a continental accusation EAW usually has a *stronger* evidential basis compared to an English one, where investigations are one-sided and completely prosecutor-led (ignoring defence evidence). 

Much like Brexit itself, your comment is, sadly, just an example of a misguided lack of trust in anything non-British, withouth actually having any substantive knowledge about it or direct experience of it.

As a post-script, in 95% of the cases an EAW is a request for an EU national resident in the UK to be extradited to his country of nationality, not a UK national who committed a crime in the EU.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Luckily we got red ones the year of the ref so we don't have to stress about the right shade of blue for a while


It'll be tory blue


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## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2020)

cracking speech


----------



## Azrael (Jan 30, 2020)

Cadmus said:


> An accusation European arrest warrant in continental systems is borne out of an investigation which is usually overseen by a investigative judge, who tests evidence prior to an indictment being preferred. As a result, a continental accusation EAW usually has a *stronger* evidential basis compared to an English one, where investigations are one-sided and completely prosecutor-led (ignoring defence evidence).
> 
> Much like Brexit itself, your comment is, sadly, just an example of a misguided lack of trust in anything non-British, withouth actually having any substantive knowledge about it or direct experience of it.
> 
> As a post-script, in 95% of the cases an EAW is a request for an EU national resident in the UK to be extradited to his country of nationality, not a UK national who committed a crime in the EU.


Depends on the jurisdiction: even France herself only employs _juges d'instruction_ in a tiny number of serious cases; and many European countries have either abolished them, or never had 'em. Moreover, in 2012 the Supreme Court ruled that prosecutors can issue a warrant themselves without going before a judge, and for the purpose of subjecting someone to a custodial interrogation prior to any charges being filed (albeit with "probable cause", although that was required by Sweden, not Britain).

It's not about reflexively distrusting Continental systems -- as it happens, there's several I'd trust more than the current English system -- but believing that this is the proper role of our government and courts, not a job to contract out to another. But of course, they hate the idea, which is why, when given the chance to repatriate E.U. justice measures, they couldn't wait to offload them again.

Another reason that, however I feel about the E.U., I believe we need to get our own house in order before criticising theirs.


----------



## rekil (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> cracking speech


Daly is a disgusting character I'm afraid. Heroic work on the (failed) bin charges campaign of 2003 is one thing, trailing after crooked property man Mick Wallace and the pair of them ganging up with holocaust deniers, conspiraloons, Assad, Iran, and of course, Galloway, is quite another.


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## existentialist (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> But if the result had been remain no doubt you’d have been up in arms about the tawdry simplistic vote on a complex subject ?


I would have breathed a sigh of relief that a mouthbreathing political stunt had not resulted in an accidental - and slight - mandate to commit an act I saw as the peak of lunacy.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> cracking speech




Not sure what lessons we're supposed to learn really, I could have done without 4 years of economic uncertainty that's seen me lose a couple of jobs and throw a wrench in my plans pushing back my career and any feasibility to own a house back to my 40s.


All for some vague notions of sovereignty under a government that's spent half a century fucking over it's own people and now has any brakes removed.

The EU may not be trustworthy but time after time the UK government has gone the extra mile in going full capitalist and then blaming the EU for it*. Well guess what, France and Germany have ignored EU tyranny and maintained more socialism and community than we have.

Fuck Westminster, fuck Brexit. I get the little people are hurting, I get the working class are fucked, I get the anger and hurt the world is changing. But we have just backed the likes of Farage and Boris and put them in charge. It's like fleeing a serial killer to lock yourself in a room with the serial killer then handing him a knife.

*Railways, postal workers, deregulation of banks, water and power everything has been sold off to the maximum extent it can get away with.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> cracking speech



Sad thing is that the brexit vote in the UK wasn't for any of the things she talks about. It wasn't because the EU allows its rules to be broken to allow for arms deals but not housing deals. If only the UK were leaving the EU for the reasons she gives - sounds a bit like a 'lexit'! But it's not, and it never was. And that matters.

tbh that whole speech makes the same fundamental mistake that some make on here. Brexit is a manifestation of the nasty r/w nationalism that has been growing across Europe and elsewhere, in the US, in Brazil, not a reaction to it. It is perhaps a reaction to some of the neoliberal shortcomings of the EU in part (but only in part, it's nowhere near that sophisticated mostly), but it is a r/w reaction to it, of the kind that leads people to vote Front National in France or Freedom Party in the Netherlands. In the UK's political system, that's what this looks like. UKIP don't get elected directly. They hijack the Tory party and get in that way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2020)

existentialist said:


> I would have breathed a sigh of relief that a mouthbreathing political stunt had not resulted in an accidental - and slight - mandate to commit an act I saw as the peak of lunacy.


Oh you've not seen the peak of lunacy yet


----------



## gosub (Jan 31, 2020)

editor said:


> All your shitty shopping needs catered for
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 31, 2020)

Looking fwd to seeing everyone's celebration pics, all the same.


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## andysays (Jan 31, 2020)

editor said:


> I could be wrong but I don't recall a big 'Remain' bus driving around the country with an almighty lie about the supposed incoming immense benefits to the NHS emblazoned all over it?


The bus, the fucking bus!!!

That's the last space on my Remainer bingo card filled in


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## not-bono-ever (Jan 31, 2020)

A new life awaits you in the Off-world colonies. The chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure.


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## flypanam (Jan 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Again? At what point did brexit fuck the tories the first time? It came close to fucking them, I'll grant you that, but they came through the other side with a big parliamentary majority that is extremely beholden to the leader, whose position is currently unassailable, and who has five years in power to look forward to. The only way brexit fucks the tories from this point is if brexit fucks Britain. And fuck knows what that will bring with it. It's unlikely to be good.
> 
> If anything, you could argue that brexit has finally solved Europe for the tories, for the time being at least.



At some point Really Existing Toryism is going to clash with the expectations of those that voted for them. The first lines of that conflict were written during the week, when Johnson and Javid (Ravid from now on, cos he's a Randist) told government departments to make cuts of 5%.

Either Johnson delivers pay rises, more money for the NHS, 2 billion for potholes or he'll face a still steaming populace who have been angry in various ways since the 2008. When the rich keep getting richer under really existing toryism, the populace won't have the eu to blame. The Government  may try to blame someone but they are slowly running out of scapegoats.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sad thing is that the brexit vote in the UK wasn't for any of the things she talks about. It wasn't because the EU allows its rules to be broken to allow for arms deals but not housing deals. If only the UK were leaving the EU for the reasons she gives - sounds a bit like a 'lexit'! But it's not, and it never was. And that matters.
> 
> tbh that whole speech makes the same fundamental mistake that some make on here. Brexit is a manifestation of the nasty r/w nationalism that has been growing across Europe and elsewhere, in the US, in Brazil, not a reaction to it. It is perhaps a reaction to some of the neoliberal shortcomings of the EU in part (but only in part, it's nowhere near that sophisticated mostly), but it is a r/w reaction to it, of the kind that leads people to vote Front National in France or Freedom Party in the Netherlands. In the UK's political system, that's what this looks like. UKIP don't get elected directly. They hijack the Tory party and get in that way.


Aside from this being a more wordy version of anyone who votes Brexit is a racist your response to what is perhaps 'a reaction some of the neo liberal shortcomings of the EU' is to adocate remaining  a member of it in  France and Holland and in the UK to rejoin it?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Not sure what lessons we're supposed to learn really, I could have done without 4 years of economic uncertainty that's seen me lose a couple of jobs and throw a wrench in my plans pushing back my career and any feasibility to own a house back to my 40s.
> 
> 
> All for some vague notions of sovereignty under a government that's spent half a century fucking over it's own people and now has any brakes removed.
> ...


Its almost like economic uncertainty , capitalism, Tory government , racism ,nationalist sentiment didnt exist before the vote to leave . Also might be worth re-visting  France and Germany's  current progress on 'socialism and community'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Its almost like economic uncertainty , capitalism, Tory government , racism ,nationalist sentiment didnt exist before the vote to leave . Also might be worth re-visting  France and Germany's  current progress on 'socialism and community'.


you might have pointed out that france and germany having maintained more socialism and community than we have isn't really setting the bar that high


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2020)

flypanam said:


> At some point Really Existing Toryism is going to clash with the expectations of those that voted for them. The first lines of that conflict were written during the week, when Johnson and Javid (Ravid from now on, cos he's a Randist) told government departments to make cuts of 5%.
> 
> Either Johnson delivers pay rises, more money for the NHS, 2 billion for potholes or he'll face a still steaming populace who have been angry in various ways since the 2008. When the rich keep getting richer under really existing toryism, the populace won't have the eu to blame. The Government  may try to blame someone but they are slowly running out of scapegoats.


i think boris johnson will make an admirable scapegoat


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## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2020)

tbh the more important events of the day will be happening in football clubs around the country as the final hours of the january transfer window tick away


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh the more important events of the day will be happening in football clubs around the country as the final hours of the january transfer window tick away


Its almost like Chelsea still think they have a transfer ban


----------



## scifisam (Jan 31, 2020)

flypanam said:


> At some point Really Existing Toryism is going to clash with the expectations of those that voted for them. The first lines of that conflict were written during the week, when Johnson and Javid (Ravid from now on, cos he's a Randist) told government departments to make cuts of 5%.
> 
> Either Johnson delivers pay rises, more money for the NHS, 2 billion for potholes or he'll face a still steaming populace who have been angry in various ways since the 2008. When the rich keep getting richer under really existing toryism, the populace won't have the eu to blame. The Government  may try to blame someone but they are slowly running out of scapegoats.



They'll blame immigrants, poor people, remainers, young people, and probably Jeremy Corbyn. There are plenty of scapegoats. The Tories won't be blamed at all. 

I wish I had your optimism, but after the way the Tories have fucked the country over with austerity, universal credit, and effective cuts to the NHS, you'd think people would be pissed off with them. But no, they got loads more seats, particularly in areas they'd treated the worst. So it's not like there's exactly a track record of the Tories fucking up and people holding them to account - it's the exact opposite.


----------



## tommers (Jan 31, 2020)

That's the first non ironic like I have given today.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Aside from this being a more wordy version of anyone who votes Brexit is a racist your response to what is perhaps 'a reaction some of the neo liberal shortcomings of the EU' is to adocate remaining  a member of it in  France and Holland and in the UK to rejoin it?


Johnson is a racist, openly so. As is Farage. More than 13 million people voted for parties led by one or the other last month. Are all those 13 million racist? That's the wrong question, always has been. The question is 'did they knowingly vote for racists?', and the answer to that question has to be, overwhelmingly, 'yes'.  If that doesn't depress you, there's something wrong with you.


----------



## flypanam (Jan 31, 2020)

scifisam said:


> They'll blame immigrants, poor people, remainers, young people, and probably Jeremy Corbyn. There are plenty of scapegoats. The Tories won't be blamed at all.
> 
> I wish I had your optimism, but after the way the Tories have fucked the country over with austerity, universal credit, and effective cuts to the NHS, you'd think people would be pissed off with them. But no, they got loads more seats, particularly in areas they'd treated the worst. So it's not like there's exactly a track record of the Tories fucking up and people holding them to account - it's the exact opposite.



I do understand that but what is different (at least to me) is that in the election the tories were promising 'oven ready' solutions to problems, promising to throw cash at this and that. They were promising a return to British dominance in finance and British success. And people voted to get Brexit out of way and for the government to start governing.

There is an expectation of better that will meet with the crushing reality of worse.

Yes they may find scapegoats but everyone knows single mothers are worse off. Everyone knows that being on benefits is no easy life. Everyone knows work doesn't pay if your British or foreign. Everyone know pensions are shit and the NHS is in crisis.

But everyone knows the rich are coining it in.

eta here isa very good article in the FT The Brexit years that suggests that issues around  immigration are on the wane, while there is low level confidence in the economy.


----------



## Poot (Jan 31, 2020)

flypanam said:


> I do understand that but what is different (at least to me) is that in the election the tories were promising 'oven ready' solutions to problems, promising to throw cash at this and that. They were promising a return to British dominance in finance and British success. And people voted to get Brexit out of way and for the government to start governing.
> 
> There is an expectation of better that will meet with the crushing reality of worse.
> 
> ...


There's a lot of distraction at play at the moment. All of the trumpeting in of Brexit means that the Tories are probably getting away with even more murder than usual. When the smoke clears and people get angry, it won't be with the Tories, scifisam  is right, it will be with people that they NOW identify as the enemy. They won't be quick to switch allegiance and feel bad that they voted Tory I don't think. Easier to get angry with the 'other'. People don't like being wrong.


----------



## 1%er (Jan 31, 2020)

I hope you all have a wonderful time tonight, Remainers need to get over themselves and give thanks that they are no longer in a political union where they had no real say on how they are governed. The EU project was doomed after they ignored the results of referendums in France, Holland and Ireland, it just took many years for this to happen. 

I'd expect Denmark to be the next to leave, but if there is another economic problem in the next couple of years it could be Italy that leaves next, southern Europe has suffered greatly economically from EU membership, unemployment will be the spark that lights they fire there, millions of young people see no future leaving with massive unemployment in the region and hopefully they will stand up and start fighting back. While eastern European countries have received lots of inward investment over recent years from the EU, the people there are now showing signs of becoming pissed off being dictated too by the EU and now the investment will slow or stop I can see a number of countries in the area looking to leave the EU.  

Europe as a free trade area was a great idea, the same types of free trade agreements were happening around the globe, so the EU needed to become a free trade area but nowhere else was political union added to these agreements and for good reason.

Unlike many whose posts I have read on this thread, I believe the UK will do well sailing its own ship. I also think the EU without the UK will struggle on for a few more years but in the end the Euro will bring it to its knees and the whole thing will come crashing down.  

I hate the fact that the Brazilian people voted for Jair Bolsonaro, but they did and I have to except that fact, I could cry and moan about how this will mean the end of the world and that everyone who voted for him is racist, sexist or homophobic, or I can just work and carry on in an effort to make things better. I suspect that having Jair Bolsonaro elected in Brazil will have about the same effect on me as Brexit will have on most of you. Have some perspective.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2020)

1%er said:


> I hope you all have a wonderful time tonight, Remainers need to get over themselves and give thanks that they are no longer in a political union where they had no real say on how they are governed


i bet that makes the scots feel so much better.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 31, 2020)

1%er said:


> I suspect that having Jair Bolsonaro elected in Brazil will have about the same effect on me as Brexit will have on most of you. Have some perspective.


Exactly. Bolsonaro is fucking shit, and you might escape the worst of his policies, but others won't. That's the perspective.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2020)

1%er said:


> I suspect that having Jair Bolsonaro elected in Brazil will have about the same effect on me as Brexit will have on most of you. Have some perspective.


he may have a fucking huge effect on people around the world as he presides over an acceleration of the destruction of the amazon rain forest.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 31, 2020)

TBH I think a Bolsanaro-type character is a more likely beneficiary of any anti-Tory rage coming up than any left wing group.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 31, 2020)

1%er said:


> I hate the fact that the Brazilian people voted for Jair Bolsonaro, but they did and I have to except that fact, I could cry and moan about how this will mean the end of the world and that everyone who voted for him is racist, sexist or homophobic, or I can just work and carry on in an effort to make things better. I suspect that having Jair Bolsonaro elected in Brazil will have about the same effect on me as Brexit will have on most of you. Have some perspective.



living up to the user name 1%er

you won't be effected by his dodgy policies so why worry?


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2020)

The next big battle for Boriscuntface will be trying to stop the Scots getting the fuck out of the union and him being responsible for the disintegration of the UK, although Corbyn will probably be blamed for that, when it happens.


----------



## flypanam (Jan 31, 2020)

editor said:


> The next big battle for Boriscuntface will be trying to stop the Scots getting the fuck out of the union and him being responsible for the disintegration of the UK, although Corbyn will probably be blamed for that, when it happens.


Well the Loyalist of Northern Ireland are directing their anger at the compromise of a sea customs boder at Johnson and the DUP and no one else. They traditionally would have shot some catholics to get their point across but are having to look for new ways to express their anger


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2020)

flypanam said:


> Well the Loyalist of Northern Ireland are directing their anger at the compromise of a sea customs boder at Johnson and the DUP and no one else. They traditionally would have shot some catholics to get their point across but are having to look for new ways to express their anger


Oh, Northern Ireland is going to be fun. Anything that adds extra gammoness to the DUP is always a treat to watch. They're the puritan medieval cunts that facilitated the fucking Tories so it would be great to see them getting well and truly shafted.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Its almost like Chelsea still think they have a transfer ban



We don't need anyone else.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 31, 2020)

A who's who of complete cunts:









						Brexit - The New Guilty Men And Women
					

As Bloomberg has pointed out, recent research indicates that Brexit has already cost the  economy around £130 billion, with another £7...




					zelo-street.blogspot.com


----------



## treelover (Jan 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sad thing is that the brexit vote in the UK wasn't for any of the things she talks about. It wasn't because the EU allows its rules to be broken to allow for arms deals but not housing deals. If only the UK were leaving the EU for the reasons she gives - sounds a bit like a 'lexit'! But it's not, and it never was. And that matters.
> 
> tbh that whole speech makes the same fundamental mistake that some make on here. Brexit is a manifestation of the nasty r/w nationalism that has been growing across Europe and elsewhere, in the US, in Brazil, not a reaction to it. It is perhaps a reaction to some of the neoliberal shortcomings of the EU in part (but only in part, it's nowhere near that sophisticated mostly), but it is a r/w reaction to it, of the kind that leads people to vote Front National in France or Freedom Party in the Netherlands. In the UK's political system, that's what this looks like. UKIP don't get elected directly. They hijack the Tory party and get in that way.




Ed Balls(yes him) has a programme on BBC2, 'Travels in Euroland' that examines this, albeit in a cartoony way at times, there are some very surprising encounters which challenge the lefts recieved truth on this.


----------



## treelover (Jan 31, 2020)

flypanam said:


> At some point Really Existing Toryism is going to clash with the expectations of those that voted for them. The first lines of that conflict were written during the week, when Johnson and Javid (Ravid from now on, cos he's a Randist) told government departments to make cuts of 5%.
> 
> Either Johnson delivers pay rises, more money for the NHS, 2 billion for potholes or he'll face a still steaming populace who have been angry in various ways since the 2008. When the rich keep getting richer under really existing toryism, the populace won't have the eu to blame. The Government  may try to blame someone but they are slowly running out of scapegoats.




You can be sure the benefit fraud posters will be up again everywhere.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2020)

treelover said:


> Ed Balls(yes him) has a programme on BBC2, 'Travels in Euroland' that examines this, albeit in a cartoony way at times, there are some very surprising encounters which challenge the lefts recieved truth on this.


'the left' is a very broad and indeed heterogeneous church so your received truth doesn't in fact exist


----------



## treelover (Jan 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Johnson is a racist, openly so. As is Farage. More than 13 million people voted for parties led by one or the other last month. Are all those 13 million racist? That's the wrong question, always has been. The question is 'did they knowingly vote for racists?', and the answer to that question has to be, overwhelmingly, 'yes'.  If that doesn't depress you, there's something wrong with you.



All of them? that is crazy.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 31, 2020)

treelover said:


> All of them? that is crazy.


Most of them. Or are you saying that a sizeable number of people are so thick that they didn't realise Johnson and Farage were racist? They did know, and voted for them anyway.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)




----------



## maomao (Jan 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Most of them. Or are you saying that a sizeable number of people are so thick that they didn't realise Johnson and Farage were racist? They did know, and voted for them anyway.


A lot of those people would not consider Farage, Johnson or themselves to be racist.


----------



## steveo87 (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


>


It's almost as if the Tories have no principles what so ever....


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)




----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 31, 2020)

Martin McGuiness looking quite mean and moody there


----------



## scifisam (Jan 31, 2020)

Are you just going to post loads of irrelevant pictures showing that the tories liked the EU nearly 50 years ago, as if it means anything at all? Do you think anyone is going to say "oh well, obviously Brexit is great and it hasn't actually made the pound fall in value or helped increase racism and xenophobia, and there will be no problems caused by it in the future, it will all be a free utopia. I know this because Margaret Thatcher liked the EU, therefore none of these bad things can possibly have happened."


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 31, 2020)

Tbf most of the tories liked the EU 3.5 years ago too


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Are you just going to post loads of irrelevant pictures showing that the tories liked the EU nearly 50 years ago, as if it means anything at all? Do you think anyone is going to say "oh well, obviously Brexit is great and it hasn't actually made the pound fall in value or helped increase racism and xenophobia, and there will be no problems caused by it in the future, it will all be a free utopia. I know this because Margaret Thatcher liked the EU, therefore none of these bad things can possibly have happened."


Despite the fact that the pound has fallen before Brexit and we had racism and xenophobia before Brexit (sometimes its a bit like talking about football for people who can only remember the Premier League) , the pictures are very relevant to Brexit Day as it reminds people that in the past Labour was anti what was to become the EU , as was the TUC and the left and many of the Tories and their backers in favour , as were the Mosleyites.
Hers an old poster found at the now closed Aldwych Tube station with some promises from the pro Common Market campaign


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 31, 2020)

You will be _shocked_ to hear that there are a bunch of the usual far right suspects around Parliament Square - Q stuff, Trump hats, signs about Soros, Tommy Robinson messages, one "It's OK To Be White" t-shirt, etc etc - who went down Whitehall (where there is/was a small anti-Brexit rally on the space opposite Downing Street that was going to have a march) to have a shout in their faces, call them traitors and cunts and paedos and so on. Cops kept the groups kind of separated eventually but were more narky with photographers on the pavement.

tbh I took some pictures then decided that I just didn't need this in my life - I don't want to give them the attention. I'm sure you can see it all on YouTube


----------



## brogdale (Jan 31, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Are you just going to post loads of irrelevant pictures showing that the tories liked the EU nearly 50 years ago, as if it means anything at all? Do you think anyone is going to say "oh well, obviously Brexit is great and it hasn't actually made the pound fall in value or helped increase racism and xenophobia, and there will be no problems caused by it in the future, it will all be a free utopia. I know this because Margaret Thatcher liked the EU, therefore none of these bad things can possibly have happened."


It does usefully illustrate that the parties of capital will promote whatever they currently believe will accelerate neoliberalism.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Despite the fact that the pound has fallen before Brexit and we had racism and xenophobia before Brexit (sometimes its a bit like talking about football for people who can only remember the Premier League) ,


No it's not like that at all. The point is that racism and xenophobia have got worse _because of brexit_. You must know that that is the point. Why post this drivel?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'm sure you can see it all on YouTube


take it trump hat boy was there. but life's too short to watch a load of cunts being a load of cunts.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Despite the fact that the pound has fallen before Brexit and we had racism and xenophobia before Brexit (sometimes its a bit like talking about football for people who can only remember the Premier League) ,


Funnily enough, football racism is on the rise too since the Brexit referendum. Funny that, isn't it?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)

editor said:


> Funnily enough, football racism is on the rise too since the Brexit referendum. Funny that, isn't it?


Its also being countered far more effectively now  as well, FLAF and other supporters groups have made a real difference.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 31, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> take it trump hat boy was there. but life's too short to watch a load of cunts being a load of cunts.


I haven't seen him for a while actually - maybe he's getting too old now? There was one obnoxious kid but it wasn't him. There was also someone with a mega (MAGA?) sized Trump hat, literally at least two feet wide.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 31, 2020)

Oh and there was a bloke (an official one) testing out multicoloured mood lighting on the Downing Street side, so I imagine those will be going on later tonight for a festive atmosphere.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I haven't seen him for a while actually - maybe he's getting too old now? There was one obnoxious kid but it wasn't him. There was also someone with a mega (MAGA?) sized Trump hat, literally at least two feet wide.



He got sent down last year didnt he?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No it's not like that at all. The point is that racism and xenophobia have got worse _because of brexit_. You must know that that is the point. Why post this drivel?


Thers no doubt in my mind that the way in which the Tory/UKIP campaign was conducted that it contributed to an increase in hate crime, however pre referendum  it was on the increase due to terrorist attacks. Improved reporting systems have also contributed to that and social media. To put everything down to Brexit might be your pet project but its not helpful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Oh and there was a bloke (an official one) testing out multicoloured mood lighting on the Downing Street side, so I imagine those will be going on later tonight for a festive atmosphere.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> It does usefully illustrate that the parties of capital will promote whatever they currently believe will accelerate neoliberalism.


Good job all that is coming to an end tonight.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Thers no doubt in my mind that the way in which the Tory/UKIP campaign was conducted that it contributed to an increase in hate crime, however pre referendum  it was on the increase due to terrorist attacks. Improved reporting systems have also contributed to that and social media. To put everything down to Brexit might be your pet project but its not helpful.


Nobody is 'putting everything down to brexit'. You do understand the difference between saying 'x is worse because of y' and 'x only exists because of y'?


----------



## 8ball (Jan 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> It does usefully illustrate that the parties of capital will promote whatever they currently believe will accelerate neoliberalism.



Oops - ignore me - replied then realised this isn't the veganism thread.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Nobody is 'putting everything down to brexit'. You do understand the difference between saying 'x is worse because of y' and 'x only exists because of y'?



I hope you're not planning on disrupting a quite astounding run of posts.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> He got sent down last year didnt he?


Did he? Charming lad like that? Must have fallen in with a bad crowd.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 31, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There was also someone with a mega (MAGA?) sized Trump hat, literally at least two feet wide.



With Brexit and Trump's acquittal set to happen within hours of each other, it's going to be quite a giddy night for that guy.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Despite the fact that the pound has fallen before Brexit and we had racism and xenophobia before Brexit (sometimes its a bit like talking about football for people who can only remember the Premier League) , the pictures are very relevant to Brexit Day as it reminds people that in the past Labour was anti what was to become the EU , as was the TUC and the left and many of the Tories and their backers in favour , as were the Mosleyites.
> Hers an old poster found at the now closed Aldwych Tube station with some promises from the pro Common Market campaign



The pound decreased hugely after the referendum and has stayed low, and racism and xenophobia have increased; you might have noticed that I said Brexit _helped_ increase them, not that it was the sole cause. 



brogdale said:


> It does usefully illustrate that the parties of capital will promote whatever they currently believe will accelerate neoliberalism.



Of course they will, but if staying in the EU is accelerating neoliberalism, is leaving the EU supposed to be put a brake on it? That would make Farage and Johnson anti-capitalists. Neither option is particularly socialist. I know being against neoliberalism was the reason most leavers on here voted leave, but decreasing neoliberalism was never going to happen under a Tory govt.


----------



## Azrael (Jan 31, 2020)

1%er said:


> I hope you all have a wonderful time tonight, Remainers need to get over themselves and give thanks that they are no longer in a political union where they had no real say on how they are governed. The EU project was doomed after they ignored the results of referendums in France, Holland and Ireland, it just took many years for this to happen.
> 
> I'd expect Denmark to be the next to leave, but if there is another economic problem in the next couple of years it could be Italy that leaves next, southern Europe has suffered greatly economically from EU membership, unemployment will be the spark that lights they fire there, millions of young people see no future leaving with massive unemployment in the region and hopefully they will stand up and start fighting back. While eastern European countries have received lots of inward investment over recent years from the EU, the people there are now showing signs of becoming pissed off being dictated too by the EU and now the investment will slow or stop I can see a number of countries in the area looking to leave the EU.
> 
> ...


Why restrict the comparisons to post-WW2 trade blocs? Economic interdependence has commonly preceded political federations we take for granted: India; the USA; Canada; Australian; and Germany herself. Ironically, I'd have far fewer issues with the E.U. if it was simply a project to federalise Europe: it's the supranationalist rhetoric that challenges the very concept of a nation state that I take issue with.

I'd love to see an EFTA-style arrangement across Europe, but accept that just isn't where Europe is, especially when the E.U.'s predecessor organizations were birthed in the aftermath of WW2. After all, the Coal and Steel communities were, first and foremost, a mechanism to make war between Germany and France "materially impossible", which the Benelux nations joined out of necessity, having just endured a brutal demonstration of how little their sovereignty was worth if their larger neighbours found it inconvenient. Blocs don't exist in the abstract, and Europe's position post-WW2 was in every sense a world away from, say, South America's Mercosur organization.

If Brexit had been conducted competently, there was some chance that smaller E.U. members could've considered seceding and rejoining an enlarged and emboldened EFTA. The isolationist trainwreck that's emerged has, by contrast, driven up support for Brussels, who, given the tone as Britain left, are just counting down to an accession request. That's why any Brexit won't do: get it wrong, and it'll destroy itself.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 31, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Good job all that is coming to an end tonight.





scifisam said:


> I know being against neoliberalism was the reason most leavers on here voted leave, but decreasing neoliberalism was never going to happen under a Tory govt.


Personally, I've never subscribed to the notion that the UK leaving the supra state would be any brake on neoliberalism, oligarchic accumulation or wealth defence; quite the opposite tbh.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)

scifisam said:


> The pound decreased hugely after the referendum and has stayed low, and racism and xenophobia have increased; you might have noticed that I said Brexit _helped_ increase them, not that it was the sole cause.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they will, but if staying in the EU is accelerating neoliberalism, is leaving the EU supposed to be put a brake on it? That would make Farage and Johnson anti-capitalists. Neither option is particularly socialist. I know being against neoliberalism was the reason most leavers on here voted leave, but decreasing neoliberalism was never going to happen under a Tory govt.


The pound had been previously been at an artificial high due to the Greek crisis affecting the euro


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 31, 2020)

Can't believe the pound is weak


----------



## scifisam (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> The pound had been previously been at an artificial high due to the Greek crisis affecting the euro



Oh come _on_. Are you seriously claiming that leaving a major trading bloc has got nothing to do with it?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 31, 2020)

Let’s get this party started now Winnie has turned up


----------



## brogdale (Jan 31, 2020)

Hard to imagine what shade of puce will this cunt will be by dawn?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Oh come _on_. Are you seriously claiming that leaving a major trading bloc has got nothing to do with it?


No of course not , what I am saying is that the fall looked worse due to the pound being artificially high. I’ve lived abroad since then and follow the pound euro trend as a necessity


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 31, 2020)

I don't know what it is about Mark Francois, but I can never look at him without seeing Clive Dyke from Benidorm.


----------



## JimW (Jan 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Hard to imagine what shade of puce will this cunt will be by dawn?
> 
> View attachment 197207


Can he see France from his house then?


----------



## scifisam (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> No of course not , what I am saying is that the fall looked worse due to the pound being artificially high. I’ve lived abroad since then and follow the pound euro trend as a necessity



Why bother pointing that out at all if you're not claiming that Brexit didn't affect the continued low value of the pound?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 31, 2020)

.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 31, 2020)

Looking forward to that 11pm citizen ---> subject regeneration moment...


----------



## MrSki (Jan 31, 2020)

Looking friendly so far.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 31, 2020)

scifisam said:


> f course they will, but if staying in the EU is accelerating neoliberalism, is leaving the EU supposed to be put a brake on it? That would make Farage and Johnson anti-capitalists.


That chain of logic does not follow at all, different groups can argue for the same thing for different reasons.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 31, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> That chain of logic does not follow at all, different groups can argue for the same thing for different reasons.



Yeah, they can, but you were claiming that photos of Thatcher supporting the EU in the 1970s were actually meaningful because they demonstrated that neoliberals will jump on any cause. Now it's that both leaving and staying in the EU are neoliberal (which I agree with), and different groups can argue for the same thing for different reasons, so I'm not sure you can square that with stating that those photos demonstrated anything.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 31, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Yeah, they can, but you were claiming that photos of Thatcher supporting the EU in the 1970s were actually meaningful because they demonstrated that neoliberals will jump on any cause. .


I think you've confused members with The39thStep I've not posted any photos (not recently)


----------



## scifisam (Jan 31, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> I think you've confused members with The39thStep I've not posted any photos (not recently)



No, but you posted a comment about the photos The39thStep was posting. That's how this discussion started. Though TBH it looks like we've got to the end of it now really.


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 31, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Brexit will fuck the tories again btw. There is no doubt about this.



Well, Brexit has fucked Labour and it may well fuck the Tories, depends how well we do as a country after the negotiation in December I guess.

Now we’re at the point of no return it’s in everyone’s interest that Brexit is a success.


----------



## hash tag (Jan 31, 2020)

My rain dance this afternoon has certainly worked


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 31, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Looking friendly so far.


Guy on the left is the one in the "It's OK To Be White" t shirt. He had a mask on when I saw him but I guess he lost it or something.


----------



## tommers (Jan 31, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Looking friendly so far.



Having fun rejecting some neoliberalism.


----------



## MrSki (Jan 31, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Guy on the left is the one in the "It's OK To Be White" t shirt. He had a mask on when I saw him but I guess he lost it or something.


Our he is getting prouder as the clock ticks.


----------



## Marty1 (Jan 31, 2020)

1%er said:


> I hope you all have a wonderful time tonight, Remainers need to get over themselves and give thanks that they are no longer in a political union where they had no real say on how they are governed. The EU project was doomed after they ignored the results of referendums in France, Holland and Ireland, it just took many years for this to happen.
> 
> I'd expect Denmark to be the next to leave, but if there is another economic problem in the next couple of years it could be Italy that leaves next, southern Europe has suffered greatly economically from EU membership, unemployment will be the spark that lights they fire there, millions of young people see no future leaving with massive unemployment in the region and hopefully they will stand up and start fighting back. While eastern European countries have received lots of inward investment over recent years from the EU, the people there are now showing signs of becoming pissed off being dictated too by the EU and now the investment will slow or stop I can see a number of countries in the area looking to leave the EU.
> 
> ...



Yup, isn’t Britain leaving the EU equivalent to 19 small and medium countries leaving at the same time?!!

Now we’ve left others may be looking at the door - if Britain booms after our complete exit, the exodus may well begin.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 31, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yup, isn’t Britain leaving the EU equivalent to 19 small and medium countries leaving at the same time?!!
> 
> Now we’ve left others may be looking at the door - if Britain booms after our complete exit, the exodus may well begin.


*IF*
(in case you're wondering, that's a big "if").


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 31, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Our he is getting prouder as the clock ticks.


Oh and the one holding the flag on the right is the obnoxious kid I mentioned.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 31, 2020)

scifisam said:


> No, but you posted a comment about the photos The39thStep was posting. That's how this discussion started. Though TBH it looks like we've got to the end of it now really.


No, I posted a comment about your train of logic. I was making no comment on what The39thStep was saying.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 31, 2020)

I mean good thing there are no white supremacists marching in London to celebrate Brexit or anything. That would be awful.


----------



## MrSki (Jan 31, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yup, isn’t Britain leaving the EU equivalent to 19 small and medium countries leaving at the same time?!!
> 
> Now we’ve left others may be looking at the door - if Britain booms after our complete exit, the exodus may well begin.


So the forecasts of it costing the UK 200 billion by the end of 2020 & more than the total the UK has paid in makes you think it will be a boom?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 31, 2020)

The Sun have got a live feed of Dover docks to celebrate 
fuck me


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 31, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I mean good thing there are no white supremacists marching in London to celebrate Brexit or anything. That would be awful.



Brexit is truly a left wing nirvana


----------



## brogdale (Jan 31, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The Sun have got a live feed of Dover docks to celebrate
> fuck me



Is it the Bishops or am I just being thick...but....er?


----------



## scifisam (Jan 31, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> No, I posted a comment about your train of logic. I was making no comment on what The39thStep was saying.



You posted that "It does usefully illustrate that the parties of capital will promote whatever they currently believe will accelerate neoliberalism." That's talking about the photos The39thStep posted. (Post 383 if you're on a desktop where you can see post numbers).


----------



## weltweit (Jan 31, 2020)

How should I mark the occasion?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 31, 2020)

scifisam said:


> You posted that "It does usefully illustrate that the parties of capital will promote whatever they currently believe will accelerate neoliberalism." That's talking about the photos The39thStep posted. (Post 383 if you're on a desktop where you can see post numbers).


That was me.


----------



## fishfinger (Jan 31, 2020)

weltweit said:


> How should I mark the occasion?


Piss up a lamppost?


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 31, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The Sun have got a live feed of Dover docks to celebrate
> fuck me




what is suppose to happen at dover


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Hard to imagine what shade of puke will this cunt will be by dawn?
> 
> View attachment 197207


c4u


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> what is suppose to happen at dover


Throwing Johnson into the sea


----------



## ska invita (Jan 31, 2020)

Ah okay, they've cut back to a miserable bunch standing in the rain in parliament square. Someone is chanting Ogi Ogi Ogi.
I can see why they cut to a carpark in Dover now.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 31, 2020)

weltweit said:


> How should I mark the occasion?



Massive shit.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jan 31, 2020)

It’s all a bit Phoenix nights without the laughs.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 31, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Well, Brexit has fucked Labour and it may well fuck the Tories, depends how well we do as a country after the negotiation in December I guess.
> 
> Now we’re at the point of no return it’s in everyone’s interest that Brexit is a success.



Let’s see that NHS money, you cunt.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jan 31, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Massive shit.


This is sort of what I did, emptied the compost bog into the composting bin today - three weeks worth of turds. 💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩


----------



## rekil (Jan 31, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Guy on the left is the one in the "It's OK To Be White" t shirt. He had a mask on when I saw him but I guess he lost it or something.


Google machine says it's "Active Patriot" (Alan Leggett) from Grimsby. Vids of himself at the most recent Polish independence day mess on his youtube.

[

For the anoraks, that's Jerozolimskie Avenue in Warsaw.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 31, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Let’s get this party started now Winnie has turned up
> 
> View attachment 197206



The British never recovered from that war, did they?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Why bother pointing that out at all if you're not claiming that Brexit didn't affect the continued low value of the pound?


Firstly because it adds context to the fall in value , of course uncertainty affects currencies and the uncertainty around the future of the EU's euro meant it was artificially high. Secondly I'm not claiming that the decision to leave and therefore the uncertainty of what happens next didnt affect the pound thirdly and finally I am saying that the falls in the value of the pound against the euro also occured before the referendum , under the recession when Labour  were in office 2009  and where we are today of Brexit is probably around the mean since 2009 if you take out the  one off Greek crisis.


FridgeMagnet said:


> I mean good thing there are no white supremacists marching in London to celebrate Brexit or anything. That would be awful.


Good thing there aren’t any of London’s ‘ Red Wall’ challenging the same group of fash that turn up for Brexit , SYL, Yellow Vests , and anything else that takes their fancy . Fash are Fash.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 31, 2020)

weltweit said:


> How should I mark the occasion?





fishfinger said:


> Piss up a lamppost?





Artaxerxes said:


> Massive shit.


Hmm not sure I had such toiletish things in mind!  

Britain is still a European country. To live in Britain is still to live in Europe. 

It is just the EU we are no longer a part of. 

I will call my English Buddies that live on the continent for a chin wag.


----------



## Spandex (Jan 31, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> what is suppose to happen at dover


At 11pm they're gonna unveil a giant motor and the British Isles is going to leave Europe for good, to moor up next to Pueto Rico by 31st Dec 2020.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Good thing there aren’t any of London’s ‘ Red Wall’ challenging the same group of fash that turn up for Brexit , SYL, Yellow Vests , and anything else that takes their fancy . Fash are Fash.


I actually don't know what this post means.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Good thing there aren’t any of London’s ‘ Red Wall’ challenging the same group of fash that turn up for Brexit , SYL, Yellow Vests , and anything else that takes their fancy . Fash are Fash.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Thanks but thats quite a  shift from the idea that there are millions who dont know whats going to happen to them.



My partner is Spanish. Ive worked with and have friends who are Polish/ Romanian / Italian/ Portuguese.

I asked my partner tonight how she feels. "Brexit is rubbish".

For those here from other EU countries who have worked and made lives here, contributed to this country and thought this country was an open tolerant place ,Brexit is a kick in the teeth.

The idea , as a British person, that Brexit is anything to celebrate is for me deeply offensive.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 31, 2020)

I've yet to encounter anyone actually _celebrating_ this who isn't a cunt to some degree, ranging from "bit of a" to "massive".


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> My partner is Spanish. Ive worked with and have friends who are Polish/ Romanian / Italian/ Portuguese.
> 
> I asked my partner tonight how she feels. "Brexit is rubbish".
> 
> ...


Funnily enough I live in Portugal and have met many Portuguese who agree that countries in the EU should elect governments that make laws and budgets for their own country rather than the EU .They also query why it took so long for the UK to enact the decision and think that referendum decisions should be respected no matter if they agree or don’t agree . Coming from a country that has its own residency rules and paperwork  and having friends and families in the UK who have settled status or pre  settled status  or who are applying they don’t see it as a kick in the teeth but a process to go through . Sorry if that offends you .


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 31, 2020)

Ex Pat Spporting Brexit


Leaver bingo anyone



take a look at some of the windrush generation who have been deported after going thru the process


----------



## scifisam (Jan 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That was me.



Oh fucking hell, doh. Sorry, redsquirrel. I've no idea how we ended up in the line of argument we went down but it looks like it was my fault.



The39thStep said:


> Firstly because it adds context to the fall in value , of course uncertainty affects currencies and the uncertainty around the future of the EU's euro meant it was artificially high. Secondly I'm not claiming that the decision to leave and therefore the uncertainty of what happens next didnt affect the pound thirdly and finally I am saying that the falls in the value of the pound against the euro also occured before the referendum , under the recession when Labour  were in office 2009  and where we are today of Brexit is probably around the mean since 2009 if you take out the  one off Greek crisis.
> 
> Good thing there aren’t any of London’s ‘ Red Wall’ challenging the same group of fash that turn up for Brexit , SYL, Yellow Vests , and anything else that takes their fancy . Fash are Fash.



If you're not claiming that the fall in the pound wasn't affected by Brexit, there's no point in bringing up the other stuff. I said that the value of the pound was affected by Brexit, and you agree. 

But now you're claiming we're back to 2009 levels, so actually that does look like you're claiming that the fall in the value of the pound doesn't matter. Make up your mind.



FridgeMagnet said:


> I've yet to encounter anyone actually _celebrating_ this who isn't a cunt to some degree, ranging from "bit of a" to "massive".



Absolutely. Though the only Brexit supporters I know* are lexiters so aren't reacting in the ways those twats at Parliament Square are.



Ax^ said:


> Ex Pat Spporting Brexit
> 
> 
> Leaver bingo anyone



Ah. That explains a lot of the complacency.


*I think I do know others, relatives mostly, on Facebook, but unfollowed them ages ago, not for this precisely but because they were bigots in other ways and I'd rather choose when to see their vileness than have it pop up in between posts about cats.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Funnily enough I live in Portugal and have met many Portuguese who agree that countries in the EU should elect governments that make laws and budgets for their own country rather than the EU .They also query why it took so long for the UK to enact the decision and think that referendum decisions should be respected no matter if they agree or don’t agree . Coming from a country that has its own residency rules and paperwork  and having friends and families in the UK who have settled status or pre  settled status  or who are applying they don’t see it as a kick in the teeth but a process to go through . Sorry if that offends you .



Im aware that you think that. Yes it does offend me. Don't lets mess about we don't agree.

Im fucking angry about Brexit and how its made my friends from other EU countries feel.

You seem to live in different place to me but what I hear is the opposite of what you say. And Im talkng from personal experience.

As I live in area with large Black British population they know from there own recent history of how freedom of movement can be curtailed. Ends up with Windrush scandal. Settled Status is no better than what Black British were promised when due to so called legitimate concerns about immigration free movement for Commonwealth people was ended.

And talking to my Black British friends there parents thought they woud be welcome in the Mother Country. They were dissapointed to say the least.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 31, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> Ex Pat Spporting Brexit
> 
> 
> Leaver bingo anyone



It suddenly becomes clear doesn't it.

"Good for Britain says guy whose not had to deal with this shit"


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 31, 2020)

I mean UK ex pats in EU countries are the most affected aren't they


----------



## ska invita (Jan 31, 2020)

One Dominic Frisby is singing right now. jesus

"Maybe Donald Trump is not all bad" is the chorus something about " not liking Sadiq Khan" being one of Trumps plus points. Vibes


----------



## ska invita (Jan 31, 2020)

Hah the Sun have had to cut away from Dominic  he lasted 30 seconds

Now showing a brick wall basically instead


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 31, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I mean UK ex pats in EU countries are the most affected aren't they



depends on the amount of money you have


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 31, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> depends on the amount of money you have



Yeah fair point. Same for everything that


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> As I live in area with large Black British population they know from there own recent history of how freedom of movement can be curtailed. Ends up with Windrush scandal. ..



I'm totally with you (and your lovely partner) on brexit Gramsci but just to say - one of the playworkers at the adventure playground we both know, 2nd generation of Jamaican heritage -i said something brexit-related to him and he totally put me back in my box for assuming he'd see things the way i do, he was all for it, sovereignty etc. 
Just can't presume with any accuracy who feels what way about this is all i'm saying. Has really stuck with me that conversation and have been very careful about even mentioning the B word to anyone since.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 31, 2020)

Christ


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 31, 2020)

Some sad ass shit going down here:


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 31, 2020)

And yeah this assumption if people are black or have non-UK roots they are remainers by default is lazy and dangerous


----------



## treelover (Jan 31, 2020)

bang on, shouldn't essentialise people


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 31, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> And yeah this assumption if people are black or have non-UK roots they are remainers by default is lazy and dangerous





Jeff Robinson said:


> Some sad ass shit going down here:




Scans the crowd


but aye the country was split down the middle


----------



## treelover (Jan 31, 2020)

Veterans project love letter to EU on White Cliffs of Dover
					

'I feel really depressed at the idea that we are leaving Europe because it has meant so much to me'




					www.independent.co.uk
				




battle of dover is on


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 31, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Christ View attachment 197259




ah come on its not like they shoot british cizilians in north ireland and should get away with it


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 31, 2020)

bimble said:


> I'm totally with you (and your lovely partner) on brexit Gramsci but just to say - one of the playworkers at the adventure playground we both know, 2nd generation of Jamaican heritage -i said something brexit-related to him and he totally put me back in my box for assuming he'd see things the way i do, he was all for it, sovereignty etc.
> Just can't presume with any accuracy who feels what way about this is all i'm saying. Has really stuck with me that conversation and have been very careful about even mentioning the B word to anyone since.



Well Coldharbour Ward , which is in the adventure playground area, was 80% Remain. At time of referendum it was in top 10% most deprived Wards in the Country. Has a large Afro Carribean population living on the estates.

Most Black British people I know were Remainers. One said to me , at the time, that the way UKIP etc were going on about Eastern Europeans  and immigration reminded him of the way the people from the Windrush generation were talked about ( his parent came from Carribbean and he grew up in Brixton).


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 31, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> And yeah this assumption if people are black or have non-UK roots they are remainers by default is lazy and dangerous



Lazy? Its is the case in my local area.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 31, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Lazy? Its is the case in my local area.



What, every single person? Isn't the person bimble refers to in your local area?


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2020)

I know the statistics. Was just saying don’t presume and generalise with such confidence, which I learnt from that conversation.


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Some sad ass shit going down here:



the state of that.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 31, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> What, every single person? Isn't the person bimble refers to in your local area?



Are you saying to me I dont know my local area?

Im not in the mood for this tonight. Ive posted up more than enough based on my personal experience of someonne doing a working class job in inner London.

You just dont want to accept it.

The vote in my local are against Brexit proves my point.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 31, 2020)

This Brexit shit has divided the country and the resentment will live on.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 31, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Are you saying to me I dont know my local area?
> 
> Im not in the mood for this tonight. Ive posted up more thn enough based on my personal experience of someonne doing a working class job in inner London.
> 
> ...



I'm saying, and I think it is very clear, that assuming people have a particular viewpoint on a political issue because they are black or foreign is really stupid. Nobody is disputing that taken as a whole a majority would have backed remain.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 31, 2020)

bimble said:


> I know the statistics. Was just saying don’t presume and generalise with such confidence, which I learnt from that conversation.



And Ive had many of last years with locals in Brixton and inner London. Id say stats and what Ive heard personally coincide.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 31, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'm saying, and I think it is very clear, that assuming people have a particular viewpoint on a political issue because they are black or foreign is really stupid. Nobody is disputing that taken as a whole a majority would have backed remain.



I didnt say that

I happen to live in area of inner London with a large Black population. So im basing what I say on personal experience not assumptions. Same with people who are "foreign".


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2020)

the brexit allstars !  the momentous hour marked by a tom jones cover. Nige is going to be the final speaker stay tuned.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 31, 2020)

Crikey. Never mind.


----------



## rekil (Jan 31, 2020)

River Styx ferry band.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Looking friendly so far.


Racist scum


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yup, isn’t Britain leaving the EU equivalent to 19 small and medium countries leaving at the same time?!!
> 
> Now we’ve left others may be looking at the door - if Britain booms after our complete exit, the exodus may well begin.


And racism and xenophobia will bloom everywhere!


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Now we’re at the point of no return it’s in everyone’s interest that Brexit is a success.


How's that then?


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Some sad ass shit going down here:



The most depressing YouTube video I've ever seen. A privileged public schoolboy banging on about he's 'beaten the establishment.'


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2020)

painful to watch but cant look away.
The cheers sound flat & unconvicing even from this crowd who chose to go and stand there.


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2020)

.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jan 31, 2020)

Cheerio motherfuckers!!! 🥳😝😂


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2020)

It's a sea of middle aged bald white men!


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2020)

Who's the posh cunt saying goodnight now?


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2020)

god save the queen karaoke with words on screen behind nigel . perfect.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 31, 2020)

So 11.04pm 

It is done. 

I don't feel any different. 

Hopefully my Spanish, French, Italian etc friends who live here in the UK (and who have been here for years working and paying taxes) won't get any added abuse.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2020)

Depressing to note how many people on Facebook mod groups (as in the 60s music) are whooping with joy over Brexit.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jan 31, 2020)

Was very quiet here in N17, no fireworks here.


----------



## MrSki (Jan 31, 2020)




----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 31, 2020)

Ugh. Compound swearing passing for great wit


----------



## scifisam (Jan 31, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> Scans the crowd
> 
> 
> but aye the country was split down the middle





editor said:


> It's a sea of middle aged bald white men!



It really is. Apart from the whiteness and unusual level of bald heads, it's hugely male. Women did vote Brexit too, in similar amounts to men. But the only woman visible in those two videos was a young woman wearing a bikini walking past while adjusting a flag in what looked like part of her job like she'd just walked out of a 1970s car advert. I'm sure I missed a few women in there somewhere but they're a teeny tiny minority compared to the men. And it's not like the cameras didn't scan quite widely.


----------



## MrSki (Feb 1, 2020)

Well Led by Donkeys had to do their piece.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Feb 1, 2020)

It’s win-win for Farage.
He’s got over £11 million of unspent donations in his account.
Chlorinated chicken wings all round.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 1, 2020)

I leave the EU without an ounce of affection for the bureaucratic freemarket shitshow that it is. Same time, there's nothing good coming down the line from a tory lead Brexit. I couldn't vote in 2016, for either that bureaucratic shit show or for a campaign against it lead by the populist right. In the middle of all that was the absence of a functioning lexit and the absence of a functioning working class politics. And if they held the vote again tomorrow I think I'd find myself in the same quandary.


----------



## editor (Feb 1, 2020)

Listen to these FUCKING IDIOTS. They literally can't come up with a single sensible answer.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 1, 2020)

existentialist said:


> *IF*
> (in case you're wondering, that's a big "if").



Who would willingly want to remain under the control of an anti-democratic entity superstate ran by power mad limousine driven unaccountable self enriching sneering mandarins?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 1, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Funnily enough I live in Portugal and have met many Portuguese who agree that countries in the EU should elect governments that make laws and budgets for their own country rather than the EU .They also query why it took so long for the UK to enact the decision and think that referendum decisions should be respected no matter if they agree or don’t agree . Coming from a country that has its own residency rules and paperwork  and having friends and families in the UK who have settled status or pre  settled status  or who are applying they don’t see it as a kick in the teeth but a process to go through . Sorry if that offends you .


Maybe if you lived In the UK rather than Portugal you wouldn't post so much total bollocks about brexit and what it means.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> And yeah this assumption if people are black or have non-UK roots they are remainers by default is lazy and dangerous


It is lazy and dangerous to dismiss the big anti brexit majority among  a population with no reason to feel itself to be European. It's really shit to dismiss that tbh. When people tell you a brexit vote will increase racism then a brexit vote increases racism you are duty bound to pay attention to what was said by those who got that prediction right. Maybe you can learn from  them.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 1, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> This Brexit shit has divided the country and the resentment will live on.



That’s why it’s vital that this country does exceptionally well economically - the feel good factor of an economic boom for all the country, not just the London bubble, would minimise resentment and reduce hard left press from promoting divisive division.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 1, 2020)

To everyone on here who voted for brexit, hopefully you can now see that you were wrong. You misunderstood what was going on and made a wrong decision. Only bad things are happening now as a result. 

What other possible conclusion could you come to?


----------



## scifisam (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> That’s why it’s vital that this country does exceptionally well economically - the feel good factor of an economic boom for all the country, not just the London bubble, would minimise resentment and reduce hard left press from promoting divisive division.



If we had an economic boom for the whole country, we wouldn't need "a feel good factor," which is when something feels good but hasn't actually happened. A feel good factor without any actual changes for the better is meaningless. Some people might already be experiencing that.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> To everyone on here who voted for brexit, hopefully you can now see that you were wrong. You misunderstood what was going on and made a wrong decision. Only bad things are happening now as a result.
> 
> What other possible conclusion could you come to?



This has got to be a wind-up?

Nobody can be that bigoted.


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Well, Brexit has fucked Labour and it may well fuck the Tories, depends how well we do as a country after the negotiation in December I guess.
> 
> Now we’re at the point of no return it’s in everyone’s interest that Brexit is a success.



In the "national" interest, eh


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Who would willingly want to remain under the control of an anti-democratic entity superstate ran by power mad limousine driven unaccountable self enriching sneering mandarins?



Far better to throw in yer lot with Trump's America, no doubt.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 1, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Oh fucking hell, doh. Sorry, redsquirrel. I've no idea how we ended up in the line of argument we went down but it looks like it was my fault.


Nor probs.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> This has got to be a wind-up?
> 
> Nobody can be that bigoted.


Oh, they can, Marty1, they can...


----------



## ska invita (Feb 1, 2020)

Great night - so many memories. Highlight was seeing Dominic Frisby LIVE!! Wow! A song for this brave new era. Lets get this to #1 people


----------



## Mr Moose (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> That’s why it’s vital that this country does exceptionally well economically - the feel good factor of an economic boom for all the country, not just the London bubble, would minimise resentment and reduce hard left press from promoting divisive division.



A Brexit driven globalist neoliberal economic boom? Yes, well done, that’ll get shared equally.

What does ‘doing exceptionally well economically’ even look like? Under the next five years of the Tories with a US trade deal?


----------



## existentialist (Feb 1, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Great night - so many memories. Highlight was seeing Dominic Frisby LIVE!! Wow! A song for this brave new era. Lets get this to #1 people



What a fucking awful, featureless, bland voice. Who is this cunt, anyway?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 1, 2020)

existentialist said:


> What a fucking awful, featureless, bland voice. Who is this cunt, anyway?


he was the big musical singalong highlight at last nights BREXIT CELEBRATION

Never mind the voice, its all about the lyrics


----------



## existentialist (Feb 1, 2020)

ska invita said:


> he was the big musical singalong highlight at last nights BREXIT CELEBRATION
> 
> Never mind the voice, its all about the lyrics


They're not half as funny/clever as he thinks they are, either...


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 1, 2020)

Seems great


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It is lazy and dangerous to dismiss the big anti brexit majority among  a population with no reason to feel itself to be European. It's really shit to dismiss that tbh. When people tell you a brexit vote will increase racism then a brexit vote increases racism you are duty bound to pay attention to what was said by those who got that prediction right. Maybe you can learn from  them.



Christ. Two of you. It was really clearly about not assuming that majorities = everybody but if you want to assume you know what every individual thinks based on their colour or accent in the name of anti racism then you crack on. Fucks sake.


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Who would willingly want to remain under the control of an anti-democratic entity superstate ran by power mad limousine driven unaccountable self enriching sneering mandarins?


We have our own local power mad limousine driven unaccountable self enriching sneering mandarins! British toffs for British people, eh?


----------



## chilango (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Who would willingly want to remain under the control of an anti-democratic entity superstate ran by power mad limousine driven unaccountable self enriching sneering mandarins?



...and yet funnily enough that's _exactly_ what we're left with.


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

chilango said:


> ...and yet funnily enough that's _exactly_ what we're left with.


Ha! We thought the same thing at the same time. Does that mean we can form a Facebook campaign or something?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 1, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Won't link to source as it's the Express...but this firmly cements Rosindell's position as the thickest vermin MP.
> 
> View attachment 196863
> 
> Margaret Thatcher house, FFS


tbf, it proved to be one of the televised highlights of Brexit night...


----------



## existentialist (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> Ha! We thought the same thing at the same time. Does that mean we can form a Facebook campaign or something?


+1, although I only thought it and didn't say it


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

Nothing actually happened last night and the absolute meltdown on here


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2020)

brogdale said:


> tbf, it proved to be one of the televised highlights of Brexit night...
> 
> View attachment 197289


More addams family than munsters


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> We have our own local power mad limousine driven unaccountable self enriching sneering mandarins! British toffs for British people, eh?



Surely removing one set of parasites from the host is advantageous?

That reminds me, haven’t we paid £211 billion to the bullies from Brussels already?

No wonder they’re unhappy their cash cow is closing it’s coffers to them, less champagne evening events and limo rides


----------



## klang (Feb 1, 2020)

brogdale said:


> .


that's the point everybody seems to have missed.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Maybe if you lived In the UK rather than Portugal you wouldn't post so much total bollocks about brexit and what it means.


Well at least I have some excuse , what’s yours?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 1, 2020)

What everyone has missed is that from 1997 to very recently you've had pro-EU governments implementing privatisation and austerity - a massive upwards siphon of money - and yet cos brioche might double in price it's conniption fits all round.

_I agree with Nick_


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Im aware that you think that. Yes it does offend me. Don't lets mess about we don't agree.
> 
> Im fucking angry about Brexit and how its made my friends from other EU countries feel.
> 
> ...


Ok that’s your view , I disagree and when I go back to Harlesden I find there are a wider views on the subject .


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I actually don't know what this post means.


I think the brandy and coffee had kicked in affecting multi tasking during half time in the Benfica game tbh . I’ve no idea either


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2020)

S☼I said:


> What everyone has missed is that from 1997 to very recently you've had pro-EU governments implementing privatisation and austerity - a massive upwards siphon of money - and yet cos brioche might double in price it's conniption fits all round.
> 
> _I agree with Nick_


From the 1980s pro-eu govts privatising...


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Surely removing one set of parasites from the host is advantageous?
> 
> That reminds me, haven’t we paid £211 billion to the bullies from Brussels already?
> 
> No wonder they’re unhappy their cash cow is closing it’s coffers to them, less champagne evening events and limo rides


There is so much misinformation in this and behind this, I’m not sure where to start: so I’m not sure I’ll bother. If you believe the problems with this country are that an evil external force stopped our governments from doing all the kind and lovely things they really wanted to.... well, you have a very rude awakening coming and I feel rather sorry for you.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 1, 2020)

happy freedom !


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> There is so much misinformation in this and behind this, I’m not sure where to start: so I’m not sure I’ll bother. If you believe the problems with this country are that an evil external force stopped our governments from doing all the kind and lovely things they really wanted to.... well, you have a very rude awakening coming and I feel rather sorry for you.


Tbf it's also been said of the EU that they have been the bulwark against UK governments imposing austerity and all the awful shit that goes with it, despite the fact it's happened anyway, and not in spite of the EU but because they're out of the same barrel.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> There is so much misinformation in this and behind this, I’m not sure where to start: so I’m not sure I’ll bother. If you believe the problems with this country are that an evil external force stopped our governments from doing all the kind and lovely things they really wanted to.... well, you have a very rude awakening coming and I feel rather sorry for you.



No and no thank you.

Regardless, you do agree that we pay the EU and exorbitant amount of money to be part of this so called project, and - a lot more than we get back?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Tbf it's also been said of the EU that they have been the bulwark against UK governments imposing austerity and all the awful shit that goes with it, despite the fact it's happened anyway, and not in spite of the EU but because they're out of the same barrel.


... Despite the fact the UK govt has had vetoes and been represented at meetings for the last 47 years...


----------



## existentialist (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> No and no thank you.
> 
> Regardless, you do agree that we pay the EU and exorbitant amount of money to be part of this so called project, and - a lot more than we get back?


Define "exorbitant".


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> No and no thank you.
> 
> Regardless, you do agree that we pay the EU and exorbitant amount of money to be part of this so called project, and - a lot more than we get back?


So what does that make you think of the parties and people who campaigned to join the common market?


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 1, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Define "exorbitant".



£211 billion since we joined.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> £211 billion since we joined.


And what's that - the gross total contribution, or net of money that has come back the other way?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 1, 2020)

i think that the brand of capitalism we have chosen here is the worse of the two options


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 1, 2020)

anyway, this has popped up on my FB feed from my previous life outside landan




ffs


----------



## teqniq (Feb 1, 2020)

What.

The EU may be many things but this is just bullshit. Particularly as pretty extreme rightwing politics have gotten us where we are today.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 1, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Define "exorbitant".


Also need to define 'we'. Different bits of the UK experience different levels of EU spending. Some net paying others net receiving. Overall the UK is a net payer for two reasons: 1 running an organisation isn't free; and 2 it is richer than the EU average so other places get more money. UK is also far from the top net contributor cos it's not the richest EU country.

Once you dig in to where the money goes and why it goes there, the EU looks much less like an evil empire, but talking about e.g. Hungary's efforts to sort pollution problems or perhaps Hastings getting a nice new park doesn't fit some people's narratives.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Also need to define 'we'. Different bits of the UK experience different levels of EU spending. Some net paying others net receiving. Overall the UK is a net payer for two reasons: 1 running an organisation isn't free; and 2 it is richer than the EU average so other places get more money. UK is also far from the top net contributor cos it's not the richest EU country.
> 
> Once you dig in to where the money goes and why it goes there, the EU looks much less like an evil empire, but talking about e.g. Hungary's efforts to sort pollution problems or perhaps Hastings getting a nice new park doesn't fit some people's narratives.


Especially not the kind of people who think that people having less is a reason to take money AWAY from them, not an argument for trying to balance the inequality.

And those of Marty1's ilk have plenty of form for that kind of thinking...


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> No and no thank you.
> 
> Regardless, you do agree that we pay the EU and exorbitant amount of money to be part of this so called project, and - a lot more than we get back?


No, I don’t agree because it’s factually incorrect


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 1, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Especially not the kind of people who think that people having less is a reason to take money AWAY from them, not an argument for trying to balance the inequality.
> 
> And those of Marty1's ilk have plenty of form for that kind of thinking...


Yeah there is a fundamental meanspiritedness to that whole line of argument. Of course the UK is a net contributor. Why would you want it not to be?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2020)

What I hate about the sector I work in is the way the bean counters have taken over, people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Marty1 is a bean counter. And what's worse is he can't count.


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Tbf it's also been said of the EU that they have been the bulwark against UK governments imposing austerity and all the awful shit that goes with it, despite the fact it's happened anyway, and not in spite of the EU but because they're out of the same barrel.


They certainly haven’t been a bulwark against austerity! That would be a very odd argument to make of you knew anything about the economies involved. 

But the social democracies in the bloc _have_ pretty effectively driven employment protections, and a supra-national legal system to appeal to seems to me to be a good thing (looking across the pond). Plus I am a huge fan of free movement and would like to see it extended- to commonwealth countries for a start, then ideally universal- not withdrawn. And working across borders- for all it is slow and sometimes infuriating- feels much better to me than retreating behind little nationalist walls.
But hey, I lost, get over it etc.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 1, 2020)

Has anyone reminded Marty1 he's a cunt today? If not, it's overdue.


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 1, 2020)

Wow. It really was a shit party.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> £211 billion since we joined.


As a percentage of GDP that's what? Under 1 %. Well worth it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> They certainly haven’t been a bulwark against austerity! That would be a very odd argument to make of you knew anything about the economies involved.
> 
> But the social democracies in the bloc _have_ pretty effectively driven employment protections, and a supra-national legal system to appeal to seems to me to be a good thing (looking across the pond). Plus I am a huge fan of free movement and would like to see it extended- to commonwealth countries for a start, then ideally universal- not withdrawn. And working across borders- for all it is slow and sometimes infuriating- feels much better to me than retreating behind little nationalist walls.
> But hey, I lost, get over it etc.



What employment protections has the EU offered from the top down that were better than the protections the working class in UK had already won through fighting for them? Must be a long list.

Honestly, the idea that the the EU pursues a different economic model more favourable to the working class is absolute shit isn't it, you know this. Why would european capital want to give greater workers rights than british capital, benevolence


----------



## existentialist (Feb 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah there is a fundamental meanspiritedness to that whole line of argument. Of course the UK is a net contributor. Why would you want it not to be?


Precisely. It seems to me that there's not a million miles from that mindset to burning £50 notes in front of homeless people.


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> What employment protections has the EU offered from the top down that were better than the protections the working class in UK had already won through fighting for them? Must be a long list.
> 
> Honestly, the idea that the the EU pursues a different economic model more favourable to the working class is absolute shit isn't it, you know this. Why would european capital want to give greater workers rights than british capital, benevolence


Social democracy. Totally different starting point. For a start it’s not top down- it’s a collective of 27 nations deciding between themselves. We were in all those rooms, taking part in all those discussions.

So, from the top of my head, recent EU agreed/dictated/mandated (depending on your position) rules that protected the worker were;
Transfer of undertakings (enacted as TUPE over here) 
Rules on pension scheme funding
Right to privacy at work
Right to be forgotten
Working time directive + Extended clauses to cover exempted professions eg medicine 
Various clauses of disability discrimination
Rule that certain benefits had to apply to same sex partners
Rule on when temporary workers were considered ‘employed’ (to avoid rolling fixed term contracts without holiday etc) 
We won’t get the benefit of the travel time directive and I suspect gender pay reporting will be rolled back as it was only step 1 in a bigger process. 

EU is in no way perfect, and sentimentalism etc is unhelpful. But most of its faults are present to the same or greater extent in its member states. The advantage I believe was in compromise and cooperation, sharing ideas and pooling resources.

but hey. Whether this is a right wing coup or a glorious proletarian revolution, I wait eagerly to find out what our future actually is.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 1, 2020)

editor said:


> I could be wrong but I don't recall a big 'Remain' bus driving around the country with an almighty lie about the supposed incoming immense benefits to the NHS emblazoned all over it?


I'll take your bus but TRUMP it with any of these;
Prime Minister David Cameron implied a third World War could be on the horizon
Chancellor, George Osborne, warned of an immediate emergency budget 
Anna Soubry MP claimed a recession would occur simply by a vote to Leave 
JP Morgan claimed Scotland will leave the UK and get a new currency
Goldman Sachs claimed there would be a recession by 2017
The Treasury issued statements such as "Half a million job losses"
Health Minister Stephen Dorrell  said that the NHS finances would be undermined
Families would be £4,300 worse off if the UK voted to leave
European Council President Donald Tusk said "As a historian I fear Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also Western political civilization in its entirety" [LOLOLOLO]
President Barack Obama said the United Kingdom would be "in the back of the queue" for future free-trade agreements with the United States 

The above statements were all just if people voted for Brexit in the referendum, not if it happened, there is another list for that. I appoligise to anyone who is offended by my use of the word TRUMP in this post, I was not talking about the great leader himself but playing cards and card games. 

Congratulation again on getting out of what is an anti-democratic system, that's massively pro big business and corporations and also protectionist, I'm surprised so many people on here support such an organization.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 1, 2020)

1%er said:


> I'll take your bus but TRUMP it with any of these;
> Prime Minister David Cameron implied a third World War could be on the horizon
> Chancellor, George Osborne, warned of an immediate emergency budget
> Anna Soubry MP claimed a recession would occur simply by a vote to Leave
> ...


We don't, necessarily. We might just see it as preferable to the same-but-more-parochial alternative being sold to us. And at least, as members of the EU, there was potential to change it; no such luck, now.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2020)

So where does the EU go from here? What direction will it take ?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 1, 2020)

teqniq said:


> What.
> 
> The EU may be many things but this is just bullshit. Particularly as pretty extreme rightwing politics have gotten us where we are today.



The logic is Germany has an economy.
Nazis were German.
Ergo Europe is Nazi because it has Germans in it.

I didn’t say it was good logic but it’s what some think.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 1, 2020)

Kind of ironic really, considering the rightwing bullshit that has led to this.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> Social democracy. Totally different starting point. For a start it’s not top down- it’s a collective of 27 nations deciding between themselves. We were in all those rooms, taking part in all those discussions.
> 
> So, from the top of my head, recent EU agreed/dictated/mandated (depending on your position) rules that protected the worker were;
> Transfer of undertakings (enacted as TUPE over here)
> ...


Right of part time workers to holiday and sick pay is another.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 1, 2020)

Cold War Steve: 'Let's fucking party'.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> Social democracy. Totally different starting point. For a start it’s not top down- it’s a collective of 27 nations deciding between themselves. We were in all those rooms, taking part in all those discussions.
> 
> So, from the top of my head, recent EU agreed/dictated/mandated (depending on your position) rules that protected the worker were;
> Transfer of undertakings (enacted as TUPE over here)
> ...



Social democracy, lol. Not only is it not in any way social democratic, it prohibits member states from implementing measures that could be considered social democratic.

If you don't think a bloc of nation states with an unelected executive is tops down then there is no fucking hope for this convo.

It's just sentimentality and nonsense isn't it. Je suis european


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 1, 2020)

1%er said:


> I'll take your bus but TRUMP it with any of these;
> Prime Minister David Cameron implied a third World War could be on the horizon
> Chancellor, George Osborne, warned of an immediate emergency budget
> Anna Soubry MP claimed a recession would occur simply by a vote to Leave
> ...



Failed political prophets of doom.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Failed political prophets of doom.


They had a good first album but the second was rubbish


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Social democracy, lol. Not only is it not in any way social democratic, it prohibits member states from implementing measures that could be considered social democratic.
> 
> If you don't think a bloc of nation states with an unelected executive is tops down then there is no fucking hope for this convo.
> 
> It's just sentimentality and nonsense isn't it. Je suis european


Of course it was top down
And of course it wasn't the saviour the politically illiterate made it out to be
But tbh I think shit as it is it may well prove to have been better in than out


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 1, 2020)

Going back to the title of this thread in claiming the Brexit celebration would be ‘shit’ - from what I’ve seen of it - it was the entire opposite and a roaring success.

Michelle Dewberry’s speech was as enthusiastic as it was optimistic.

One soundbite from one of the speakers worth a mention went along the lines of - today there are no longer leavers and remainers, today we are all leavers.


----------



## Azrael (Feb 1, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> So where does the EU go from here? What direction will it take ?


If their own proposals are anything to go by, the core eurozone nations (France, Germany, Austria, Benelux countries, maybe Italy and Spain) will press ahead with much deeper integration. The Nordic countries will remain either wholly or semi-out, and the A8 will continue to chafe at Brussels' restrictions (while having no intention of leaving due to the economic perks). Pretty much where it is now, just with the currents hardening into policy.


----------



## kenny g (Feb 1, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> Scans the crowd
> 
> 
> but aye the country was split down the middle


Makes my englishness curl.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Of course it was top down
> And of course it wasn't the saviour the politically illiterate made it out to be
> But tbh I think shit as it is it may well prove to have been better in than out



Entirely fair position to take, have no issue with that, it's the complete blindness to what the EU actually is that pisses me off


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Going back to the title of this thread in claiming the Brexit celebration would be ‘shit’ - from what I’ve seen of it - it was the entire opposite and a roaring success.
> 
> Michelle Dewberry’s speech was as enthusiastic as it was optimistic



Lol


----------



## scifisam (Feb 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Nothing actually happened last night and the absolute meltdown on here



Absolute meltdown? A bunch of bored people having a surprisingly civil conversation on a Friday night is not a meltdown, you tool  You and the people who liked that post might want to pretend that remainers were having a meltdown because it suits your preconceptions, but it didn't actually happen. 



Marty1 said:


> Going back to the title of this thread in claiming the Brexit celebration would be ‘shit’ - from what I’ve seen of it - it was the entire opposite and a roaring success.
> 
> Michelle Dewberry’s speech was as enthusiastic as it was optimistic.
> 
> One soundbite from one of the speakers worth a mention went along the lines of - today there are no longer leavers and remainers, today we are all leavers.



Yeah, what a lovely thing to say, everybody's been forced to leave even if they didn't want to - that's a heartwarming sentiment


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Absolute meltdown? A bunch of bored people having a surprisingly civil conversation on a Friday night is not a meltdown, you tool  You and the people who liked that post might want to pretend that remainers were having a meltdown because it suits your preconceptions, but it didn't actually happen



Sorry Sam, wasn't aimed at you and this thread wasn't the worst by a long way so I prob should have posted it somewhere else.

But if you don't think there was a meltdown on here then I dunno what to say really. Some people made right dicks of themselves


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 1, 2020)

editor said:


> Listen to these FUCKING IDIOTS. They literally can't come up with a single sensible answer.




Friday night. Central london. Party time. 

Yep, that’s where I go in order to demand random punters to explain their political philosophy to me.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 1, 2020)

Boris was in Sunderland yesterday holding a cabinet meeting.

Good to see him outside of Westminster and noteworthy for him to come to Sunderland as they were the first to declare their results in the 2016 referendum of course.









						Boris Johnson in Sunderland holding Cabinet meeting in first city to back Brexit as the results came in
					

A CABINET meeting chaired by Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the National Glass Centre in Sunderland is currently underway.




					www.thenorthernecho.co.uk


----------



## kenny g (Feb 1, 2020)

I feel like I have almost no political identity now. I refuse to sneer at people who have  grasped  that brief illusion they have gained some kind of control over their lives when I have seen year after year year of political action subject to state observation, police control, and media feed fucking. The revolutionary forces are in a fucking dreadful place now. We have been sold out, eaten out, and subject to side issue upon side issue. How the fcuk has it come to the situation that an EU flag party has become the counterpoise to the red apron being paraded outside parliament square? A few years back it was a mock guillotine and executioner on tower hill. I refuse to give a fuck whether some EU eurocrat or trumpite loyalist is my chosen shitter upon. We need to gather our forces, identify the real political issues that face us - a climate that is in total collapse - states and corporations that have AI at their disposal- the attempted total control by social media corps. And define our own battles.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 1, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Friday night. Central london. Party time.
> 
> Yep, that’s where I go in order to demand random punters to explain their political philosophy to me.


Tweeted by someone who literally begs for money to reveal his hottest takes


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2020)

Azrael said:


> If their own proposals are anything to go by, the core eurozone nations (France, Germany, Austria, Benelux countries, maybe Italy and Spain) will press ahead with much deeper integration. The Nordic countries will remain either wholly or semi-out, and the A8 will continue to chafe at Brussels' restrictions (while having no intention of leaving due to the economic perks). Pretty much where it is now, just with the currents hardening into policy.


Yep I was reading an article this morning which said further integration would be the only way it could survive/ develop


----------



## Azrael (Feb 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> [...] it's the complete blindness to what the EU actually is that pisses me off


As the most hard-headed political theorists love to remind us, nation states are basically glorified protection rackets, which is at once true, and wholly misses that countries are so much more than their foundations.


----------



## Azrael (Feb 1, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Yep I was reading an article this morning which said further integration would be the only way it could survive/ develop


In its current form, undoubtedly, which is why I have a lotta time for out-and-out federalists, who offer the most coherent future path for the E.U. . Ever closer union only ever had one endpoint. It's intergovernmentalists in denial about its direction of travel who'll suffer the most angst.


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Right of part time workers to holiday and sick pay is another.


Yeah, I think I was in the US when that happened. Experiencing what life with absolutely zero social protection looks like!


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Social democracy, lol. Not only is it not in any way social democratic, it prohibits member states from implementing measures that could be considered social democratic.
> 
> If you don't think a bloc of nation states with an unelected executive is tops down then there is no fucking hope for this convo.
> 
> It's just sentimentality and nonsense isn't it. Je suis european


I’m not European any more, because you won. And I’d have spoken German because that’s the language I’m most fluent in.

Not sure why you’re still so angry, mind- surely having been given what you wanted you and Marty and the like should all be happy and setting off into the future..... I‘m still not certain what that future is because no one seems able to describe it, but hey ho. Sure it will be sunlit.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> Not sure why you’re still so angry, mind- surely having been given what you wanted you and Marty and the like



Ah fuck off then you middle class knobend


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> I’m not European any more, because you won.


Lol. Reminds me of revealing to some fellow PGCE students I'd voted Leave for socialist reasons and having them start listing European holiday destinations as though suddenly they'd been placed on an unreachable planet


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Ah fuck off then you middle class knobend


As I said- angry men who can’t explain the upside and take refuge in insults.


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Lol. Reminds me of revealing to some fellow PGCE students I'd voted Leave for socialist reasons and having them start listing European holiday destinations as though suddenly they'd been placed on an unreachable planet


it’s not an annual holiday that’s at stake though, is it? That’s just more expensive insurance and a bit of queuing


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> it’s not an annual holiday that’s at stake though, is it? That’s just more expensive insurance and a bit of queuing


What does it mean to feel European? I genuinely don't know what that might be like, or how the way the UK does business with other countries changing might alter that


----------



## Azrael (Feb 1, 2020)

The supposedly victorious government sure aren’t acting like winners: instead of London’s sky alight with fireworks illuminating a Bacchanalian public holiday beneath (remember Al “Boris” bellowing about our “independence day” in the final referendum debates?), Brexit’s snuck out after dark like an inmate being whisked from the prison gates, with even “Brexit hard man” Steve Baker now making nervous speeches on the floor of the Commons urging its supporters not to be triumphalist; what passes for the national celebration’s a cold, muddy huddle of Kippers beached on Parliament Square; and in a blunt display of Britain’s new status, we awake to find that Brussels now backs Spain’s claim to Gibraltar.

Meanwhile, the supposed losers are saying “told ya so”, and daring to predict rejoining a lot quicker than they would even a month ago.

Turnabout comes fast and furious these days!


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2020)

It’s remarkable that within the workers rights haven that is the EU that in some jobs you have an app on your phone which tells you when you can work ( obviously if you are unable to and can’t get cover you get fined) . Of course we could have a situation where we support and advocate workers getting into trade unions , democratising the unions and trade unions fighting  for rights at work up and above the EU standards. Some if the ‘new unions’  and the RMT have done this very well off their own backs . Might seem a tad old fashioned but that’s one of thes way the Tories are going to be pushed back.


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

S☼I said:


> What does it mean to feel European? I genuinely don't know what that might be like, or how the way the UK does business with other countries changing might alter that


It’s difficult to explain in the way that it would be hard to explain ‘feeling British’.

Easiest way to describe it I guess is that when I was travelling and I got back to Europe I felt like I was home again.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 1, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Lol. Reminds me of revealing to some fellow PGCE students I'd voted Leave for socialist reasons and having them start listing European holiday destinations as though suddenly they'd been placed on an unreachable planet


So how you feeling now about your decision to vote leave for socialist reasons?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Lol. Reminds me of revealing to some fellow PGCE students I'd voted Leave for socialist reasons and having them start listing European holiday destinations as though suddenly they'd been placed on an unreachable planet


Nobody went to Europe before the EU sort of stuff . I had mates who even went to Albania and the GDR  ,buying a cheap visa a week before or on the border . I went through Yugoslavia and all they asked for was my passport . Got fleeced in Italy though on the train for not having a ticket .


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So how you feeling now about your decision to vote leave for socialist reasons?


Like I did the right thing personally. That's how I decided how to vote - it was a decision I didn't take lightly or quickly, so I know I made it for the right reasons, and stand by it.


----------



## IC3D (Feb 1, 2020)

Didn't really give a shit til i got to Norwich after a 12 hour shift in London last night and a wacky bearded guy welcomed commuters in a union jack suit. i wasn't mature i made a wanker sign in his face and smacked hid union jack top hat off his head. Reassuringly he was completely ignored and I fucked off without anyone Batt Ng an eyelid.


----------



## JimW (Feb 1, 2020)

I voted leave and would again. When was a smooth withdrawal from the EU with no victims going to be on the table? If you havered so as not to throw some people under the bus felt like you were just throwing others under (or into the sea) instead, so I stuck to the basic question, in or out. The consequences of a remain victory for further centralisation and technocratic end-running round democracy were also a consideration.
The form it's taken is hardly something to celebrate, but I'm pleased that it's delivered a check to the EU project.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 1, 2020)

JimW said:


> I voted leave and would again. When was a smooth withdrawal from the EU with no victims going to be on the table? If you havered so as not to throw some people under the bus felt like you were just throwing others under (or into the sea) instead, so I stuck to the basic question, in or out. The consequences of a remain victory for further centralisation and technocratic end-running round democracy were also a consideration.
> The form it's taken is hardly something to celebrate, but I'm pleased that it's delivered a check to the EU project.


Exactly. When I stripped away all the other flannel and just answered the question In or Out (while mindful of why) it was a lot easier.


----------



## keybored (Feb 1, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Tweeted by someone who literally begs for money to reveal his hottest takes


He has a talent for swearing creatively. That's about it.


----------



## not a trot (Feb 1, 2020)

Nothing has changed. Man U are still shit.


----------



## klang (Feb 1, 2020)

IC3D said:


> Batt Ng


as far as Trap goes, he's def more interesting/creative than some of the others.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 1, 2020)

JimW said:


> I voted leave and would again. When was a smooth withdrawal from the EU with no victims going to be on the table? If you havered so as not to throw some people under the bus felt like you were just throwing others under (or into the sea) instead, so I stuck to the basic question, in or out. The consequences of a remain victory for further centralisation and technocratic end-running round democracy were also a consideration.
> The form it's taken is hardly something to celebrate, but I'm pleased that it's delivered a check to the EU project.



But it wasn't a basic question really. And although you're one of my favourite posters you are another ex-pat who voted leave so it's not going to affect you very much anyway.


----------



## JimW (Feb 1, 2020)

scifisam said:


> But it wasn't a basic question really. And although you're one of my favourite posters you are another ex-pat who voted leave so it's not going to affect you very much anyway.


I was living in England at the time with no idea I was heading back to China. Still maintain it was a basic question, even if either choice had a whole raft of connotations and consequences.


----------



## Supine (Feb 1, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> £211 billion since we joined.



Small change compared to the amount brexit has started to cost









						$170 Billion and Counting: The Cost of Brexit for the U.K.
					

U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson wants to “unleash Britain’s potential.” First the economy has to catch back up with the rest of the world.




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2020)

JimW said:


> I was living in England at the time with no idea I was heading back to China. Still maintain it was a basic question, even if either choice had a whole raft of connotations and consequences.


I was in England when I voted and flew back the same day . I was surprised at the result tbh


----------



## JimW (Feb 1, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I was in England when I voted and flew back the same day . I was surprised at the result tbh


I was working in a warehouse back in my old hometown and expecting to stumble on there until retirement.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> It’s difficult to explain in the way that it would be hard to explain ‘feeling British’.
> 
> Easiest way to describe it I guess is that when I was travelling and I got back to Europe I felt like I was home again.



What has changed?

When I travel out of Europe on say, Lufthansa, I arrive back in Frankfurt or Munich and feel that I am nearly home, I am in a country that has pretty much the same culture as that in which I was raised, I speak enough of the language to get by (order a set of bagpipes, at least), but not home, cos Germany is not home, it’s just far closer than where I have been, both physically and culturally. And it’s not going anywhere. The benefits of EU membership that we are losing, what are they? What will you no longer be able to do now we are out? Other than get a zero-hours or otherwise exploitative job in a country other than the UK.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 1, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What has changed?
> 
> When I travel out of Europe on say, Lufthansa, I arrive back in Frankfurt or Munich and feel that I am nearly home, I am in a country that has pretty much the same culture as that in which I was raised, I speak enough of the language to get by (order a set of bagpipes, at least), but not home, cos Germany is not home, it’s just far closer than where I have been, both physically and culturally. And it’s not going anywhere. The benefits of EU membership that we are losing, what are they? What will you no longer be able to do now we are out? Other than get a zero-hours or otherwise exploitative job in a country other than the UK.



The European Court of Human Rights has been kinda handy  :/


----------



## kebabking (Feb 1, 2020)

RTWL said:


> The European Court of Human Rights has been kinda handy  :/



ECHR isn't part of the EU. Still members of the ECHR, and that's unlikely to change.

So, you being a well informed expert on this whole EU membership thing that all the thicky racists didn't understand....


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

RTWL said:


> The European Court of Human Rights has been kinda handy  :/



Nothing to do with the EU.

Europe as a place, what does that mean anyway. Greece or Sweden or Malta or Latvia. Absolute nonsense. Everybody from Europe is European.


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 1, 2020)

Can you get a Zero hours Contract in most EU countries?



and like the exit is going to help workers right

did they not remove the issue from the withdrawl bill not long after winning the election?


----------



## fishfinger (Feb 1, 2020)

RTWL said:


> The European Court of Human Rights has been kinda handy  :/


That has nothing to do with Britain's membership of the EU.

Edit: I see Proper Tidy got there first


----------



## RTWL (Feb 1, 2020)

kebabking said:


> ECHR isn't part of the EU. Still members of the ECHR, and that's unlikely to change.
> 
> So, you being a well informed expert on this whole EU membership thing that all the thicky racists didn't understand....



Really ? Then what is this :



> When Britain leaves the EU, the Government have said the Charter will no longer have effect in UK law







__





						What does Brexit mean for equality and human rights in the UK? | Equality and Human Rights Commission
					

We consider what difference membership of the EU makes to equality and human rights in the United Kingdom.




					www.equalityhumanrights.com
				




:/



> We do not currently have a British Bill of Rights.



eh ?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 1, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Really ? Then what is this :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That will be the _Charter, _which as the article you've posted makes clear, has nothing to do with the _Convention, _which is what the ECHR governs.

If you're going to post this stuff, it might be an idea to read it first.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 1, 2020)

Well thats good then. I was genuinly worried about that.
Can`t think of anything else TBH .

Edit.

No hang on 



> The impact of Brexit on our equality and human rights will depend on the laws that are passed to deal with leaving the EU.
> 
> The Government published a White Paper on a Great Repeal Bill on 30 March 2017. The White Paper provides some clarity about how equality and human rights concerns will be addressed. For example:
> 
> ...





You don`t think that capital might have it`s sights on this ?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2020)

RTWL said:


> The European Court of Human Rights has been kinda handy  :/


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> Can you get a Zero hours Contract in most EU countries?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can get zero hours contracts. But as a UK citizen your chance to get a job on the fry station at McDonald’s in Bucharest has now gone. So it is understandable that some people on here professed to have spent yesterday crying.

Should you be after a job at CERN and you have the qualifications to land the role, I suspect that the UK leaving the EU will not present you with any barriers to taking up that position.


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 1, 2020)

Not a UK Citizen so would not be an issue

plus even in Romania, Zero hour contract are not as widely used as the UK


----------



## RTWL (Feb 1, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


>



You suspect. Well that is reasuring . But there is an obvious massive oppertunity for us all to get fucked on a human rights level ... but i guess you trust the government whitepaper ?



> The impact of Brexit on our equality and human rights will depend on the laws that are passed to deal with leaving the EU.



And seeing as they are busy dismanteling the NHS, postering about fucking us even harder with the CJA, and cutting back on disabled benifits .... yes ... i`m sure we can trust that whitepaper.



kebabking said:


> That will be the _Charter, _which as the article you've posted makes clear, has nothing to do with the _Convention, _which is what the ECHR governs.
> 
> If you're going to post this stuff, it might be an idea to read it first.



But it does obviously open a pandoras box of oppertunity for capital to dismantel all rights. So maybe you should have read it also


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 1, 2020)

If you can’t trust a Tory government who can you trust eh?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 1, 2020)

RTWL said:


> You suspect. Well that is reasuring . But there is an obvious massive oppertunity for us all to get fucked on a human rights level ... but i guess you trust the government whitepaper ?
> 
> 
> 
> And seeing as they are busy dismanteling the NHS, postering about fucking us even harder with the CJA, and cutting back on disabled benifits .... yes ... i`m sure we can trust that whitepaper.



So, which Human Rights that the Charter protects do you think are not protected by the Convention?

Almost genuinely interested, I mean it's obvious that you're a panic merchant who's scrambling from one strawman to the next....


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> Not a UK Citizen so would not be an issue
> 
> plus even in Romania, Zero hour contract are not as widely used as the UK



Quite a few EU countries either ban zero hours or set restrictions, eg in Germany they have to pay workers a minimum of three hours, although there is no EU prohibition of zero hours as far as I know. Interestingly zero hours big in the scandinavian economies, those ones that lots of people laud as social democratic.

Anyway one problem is that being in the EU didn't prevent the UK developing a sizeable zero hour culture. Or opting out of WTD. Which undermines the idea that EU has any utility as a safeguard of workers rights. Then in many other instances EU requirements are below existing rights fought for and secured by UK workers. Almost like the EU doesn't really offer anything to workers and doesn't have a different economic model to, well, anywhere else. Which isn't suprising I suppose because it's a free trade bloc which serves the interest of capital, or the people that benefit from labour exploitation, and not a really big trade union.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 1, 2020)

kebabking said:


> So, which Human Rights that the Charter protects do you think are not protected by the Convention?
> 
> Almost genuinely interested, I mean it's obvious that you're a panic merchant who's scrambling from one strawman to the next....



Did you not read that link then ?



> In light of the government intentions explained in the White Paper, the most significant effect of Brexit on equality and human rights are likely to be:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And that is if our beloved Tory government actually sticks to the whitepaper .... which already has some pretty loose promises.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

Inside or outside of the EU, the only rights worth having are the ones we win


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2020)

RTWL said:


> You suspect. Well that is reasuring . But there is an obvious massive oppertunity for us all to get fucked on a human rights level ... but i guess you trust the government whitepaper ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## RTWL (Feb 1, 2020)

kebabking said:


> you're a panic merchant who's scrambling from one strawman to the next....



You think Cambridge Anylitica is a straw man? You think a realistic concern for the erosion of our rights is a straw man ?

Whatever !

I just think alarm is currently justified . Makes more sense than burrying your head in the sand to me.


----------



## oryx (Feb 1, 2020)

Haven't seen this posted anywhere on here yet, but Brexit is clearly emboldening those who feel that people shouldn't speak their own language, if they want to, in their own home. They should speak the 'Queens (sic) English'.









						'Happy Brexit Day' signs at Norwich flats say 'only speak English'
					

The signs, which say "we do not tolerate" non-English speakers, have been reported to police.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Why am I not surprised? Imagine what it feels like to be, say, Polish or Syrian, and to read that.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2020)

RTWL said:


> The European Court of Human Rights has been kinda handy  :/


The crib team were up in arns about us potentially losing that, couldn't even hear the jukebox for all their noise


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What has changed?
> 
> When I travel out of Europe on say, Lufthansa, I arrive back in Frankfurt or Munich and feel that I am nearly home, I am in a country that has pretty much the same culture as that in which I was raised, I speak enough of the language to get by (order a set of bagpipes, at least), but not home, cos Germany is not home, it’s just far closer than where I have been, both physically and culturally. And it’s not going anywhere. The benefits of EU membership that we are losing, what are they? What will you no longer be able to do now we are out? Other than get a zero-hours or otherwise exploitative job in a country other than the UK.


Yesterday, if I collapsed in the airport I’d have the full German healthcare system looking after me, just because I have a piece of plastic in my wallet. I could decide to stay in Germany for up to three months on impulse, looking for a job. I could take up this imaginary job with minimum fuss and could rent or buy a house (theoretically), all under a simplified set of reciprocal tax arrangements. My son could be enrolled in school. I wouldn’t ever have to decide whether I was now British or German, and I could come and go as I wanted. I wouldn’t need to count days (though weirdly in NL I would, but that’s another story). I could change jobs if I decided I didn’t like the one I had: and if it all went horribly wrong I’d be entitled to basic social care (and full social security if I had been there long enough and registered).
We don’t know what the future will look like, but I’ve moved to non EU countries before and it requires visas, permissions, financial declarations, proof you can maintain your family, qualifying periods, employment restrictions, regulations about what you can do or not do when you’re there and what equipment you can take with you, how many days you can spend where....and I am still filing tax returns for somewhere I haven’t lived for 15 years, and get shit from border security every time I go back.

Hey, it may be fine. Almost certainly will be for people like me, even though I just lost my job for the second time for tedious brexity reasons. Doesn’t mean I have to like it, or the uncertainty it brings. And at a really fundamental level I liked being part of something bigger than this.... island. And nationalism and the sort of rhetoric we’ve seen for c the last 4 years makes my skin itch. (And anything that makes someone like Widdicombe happy makes me nervous)


incidentally, the rules on refugee passports changed without warning or communication on 18th January. A number of refugee friends found themselves unable to travel- it took me hours to find the documentation that had affected them, the Home Office didn’t give a shit. A Sudanese friend had his paperwork torn up in front of him, causing him no end of distress given what he’s been through. That sort of arbitrary cruelty to ‘others’ will, I fear, become more frequent now.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

Still can today btw


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2020)

oryx said:


> Haven't seen this posted anywhere on here yet, but Brexit is clearly emboldening those who feel that people shouldn't speak their own language, if they want to, in their own home. They should speak the 'Queens (sic) English'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is this in just one block of flats in Winchester or is it a nation wide ?


----------



## oryx (Feb 1, 2020)

It's just one block, in Norwich, called Winchester Tower.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 1, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Is this in just one block of flats in Winchester or is it a nation wide ?



Its one block of flats.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 1, 2020)

stop. STOP! You people are trying to deny that the right wing in this country are feeling empwered ? Or just pointlessly nitpicking . If you havent experienced the recent surge of right wing empowerment in your lives then i guess you are not working class ?


----------



## Azrael (Feb 1, 2020)

JimW said:


> I voted leave and would again. When was a smooth withdrawal from the EU with no victims going to be on the table? If you havered so as not to throw some people under the bus felt like you were just throwing others under (or into the sea) instead, so I stuck to the basic question, in or out. The consequences of a remain victory for further centralisation and technocratic end-running round democracy were also a consideration.
> The form it's taken is hardly something to celebrate, but I'm pleased that it's delivered a check to the EU project.


How does this hard-headed analysis stand up on its own terms?

Fortress Europe's completely undaunted by Brexit: its only achievement will be to entrench further immigrants controls. A smooth exit was available -- E.E.A. via the EFTA -- but given the anti-immigrant fixation of major Leave campaigns, wasn't likely to be delivered by them.

As for this botched Brexit checking the E.U., it's had the opposite effect: secession's become toxic across the bloc, with even openly nativist parties quietly shelving their exit policies; and without Whitehall blocking them, the Federalists can push ahead with their integrationist agenda.

Better yet for Brussels, they get to look forward to the U.K. breaking apart and a cowed, broken England begging her way back in down the line, after which secession's viewed as about as live an issue as retaking the Thirteen Colonies. This omelette's not worth the eggs.


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Still can today btw


Some of it you can. Some of it you can’t. Some is definitely going. Some of it we have no idea what’s going to happen.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> Some of it you can. Some of it you can’t. Some is definitely going. Some of it we have no idea what’s going to happen.



Every example you cited 'yesterday' is the same today. EHIC still valid, visa free travel fine, anybody moving to an EU country for work still can and will be able to apply for settled status. Which ones fall into your 'some of it you can't' category?

But what do I know, I'm just an angry bloke indistinguishable from some far right dick


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 1, 2020)

think you brought class into it before manter

stop being so obtuse and explain what the benifits will be after the transitional period

We had about 8 fucking years of this idea the country can gang press the EU into meeting the UK demands

each time we been told to get to fuck ffs the refrendum only happened because cameron failed to renegation the deal with Europe

what the difference now


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

I called her a middle class knobend yeah. Cos she is middle class, don't think she disputes that, and cos it's middle class people who can't seem to tell the difference between far right arguments for brexit and left criticisms of EU. The knobend bit was justified given that little dig. No idea where the class reference in last couple of posts were and didn't really understand rest of post, 8 years what


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 1, 2020)

the class refrence was only due to your interactions with manter..

the rest was more pointing out what is the fucking benift for working class people from the exit

the idea that Farage, Banks, Martin, Widdecome and Boris are talking to the working class is the biggest lie 

since the devil told us he did not exist


----------



## two sheds (Feb 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I called her a middle class knobend yeah. Cos she is middle class, don't think she disputes that, and cos it's middle class people who can't seem to tell the difference between far right arguments for brexit and left criticisms of EU. The knobend bit was justified given that little dig. No idea where the class reference in last couple of posts were and didn't really understand rest of post, 8 years what



Didn't you say she 'stinks' of being middle class?

That was really fucking nasty if it was you and deserves an apology.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Didn't you say she 'stinks' of being middle class?
> 
> That was really fucking nasty if it was you and deserves an apology.



No


----------



## two sheds (Feb 1, 2020)

Ah ok apologies from me then. I saw someone say it though and whoever it was should apologize.


----------



## Azrael (Feb 1, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> [...] We had about 8 fucking years of this idea the country can gang press the EU into meeting the UK demands [...]


And this political snake oil's as far from patriotic as it gets. International trade's a brutal game: ironically, Britain's been so long shielded by the Common Market firewall that the ERG mob's forgotten just how brutal. True patriots wouldn't expose their nation and its people to these forces needlessly.

It has nothing to do with E.U. membership, either: many longtime leavers have been advocating a Brexit that takes account of inescapable realities of geography and economic imbalance, but so far, they've been sidelined. The only hope for a successful Brexit's that they're finally brought in from the cold.


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Every example you cited 'yesterday' is the same today. EHIC still valid, visa free travel fine, anybody moving to an EU country for work can and will be able to apply for settled status. Which ones fall into your 'some of it you can't'?
> 
> But what do I know, I'm just an angry bloke indistinguishable from some far right dick


Er, your last line is projecting a bit? I’ve never said you are far right! I’m just not sure why you’re so angry. You’ve won. 🤷‍♀️ Whatever I say is just background noise really- we have left, there is a transition period which isn’t long enough to get any meaningful arrangements in place so we will be completely cut free and on our own this time next year. It doesn’t matter what I think about it- it’s done. I can’t change it, I can just live with it, or leave myself. 

The things that have already gone are ability to work in Europe hassle free and ability to buy or rent property hassle free. Everything else we know will go in the next 12 months unless they can come up with a deal. Which is hugely unlikely...


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

And yes I am middle class, always have been middle class (whatever definition you care to use)- would be dishonest and a bit silly to deny it. I know perfectly well what the differences are between lexit and ukipy reasons are for leave vote; but I don’t buy them and think they’ve both brought us to the same place, which I am not OK with.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> Er, your last line is projecting a bit? I’ve never said you are far right! I’m just not sure why you’re so angry. You’ve won. 🤷‍♀️





Manter said:


> I'm not sure why you’re still so angry, mind- surely having been given what you wanted you and Marty and the like



Righto (🤷‍♀️)



Manter said:


> The things that have already gone are ability to work in Europe hassle free and ability to buy or rent property hassle free.



No they haven't. Might struggle to get a mortgage or long term let I suppose, although probably not given you can still apply for settled status in any member state you move to before end of 2020.


----------



## Supine (Feb 1, 2020)

Manter said:


> Yesterday, if I collapsed in the airport I’d have the full German healthcare system looking after me, just because I have a piece of plastic in my wallet. I could decide to stay in Germany for up to three months on impulse, looking for a job. I could take up this imaginary job with minimum fuss and could rent or buy a house (theoretically), all under a simplified set of reciprocal tax arrangements. My son could be enrolled in school. I wouldn’t ever have to decide whether I was now British or German, and I could come and go as I wanted. I wouldn’t need to count days (though weirdly in NL I would, but that’s another story). I could change jobs if I decided I didn’t like the one I had: and if it all went horribly wrong I’d be entitled to basic social care (and full social security if I had been there long enough and registered).
> We don’t know what the future will look like, but I’ve moved to non EU countries before and it requires visas, permissions, financial declarations, proof you can maintain your family, qualifying periods, employment restrictions, regulations about what you can do or not do when you’re there and what equipment you can take with you, how many days you can spend where....and I am still filing tax returns for somewhere I haven’t lived for 15 years, and get shit from border security every time I go back.
> 
> Hey, it may be fine. Almost certainly will be for people like me, even though I just lost my job for the second time for tedious brexity reasons. Doesn’t mean I have to like it, or the uncertainty it brings. And at a really fundamental level I liked being part of something bigger than this.... island. And nationalism and the sort of rhetoric we’ve seen for c the last 4 years makes my skin itch. (And anything that makes someone like Widdicombe happy makes me nervous)
> ...



The problem you have posting this is that leavers will skim the details and they will ignore the bits they don't like.


----------



## Manter (Feb 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Righto (🤷‍♀️)
> 
> 
> 
> No they haven't. Might struggle to get a mortgage or long term let I suppose, although probably not given you can still apply for settled status in any member state you move to before end of 2020.


you are the two that seem crossest! You are both leavers and neither very happy to have got what you wanted. I just don’t get it.

The experiences of my friends suggest they have. A friend in Germany is now essentially living in her boyfriend’s flat because having her on the lease was such hard work. It appears you can no longer get mortgage finance in Spain. Most German states have committed to protect/support anyone who has moved there before yesterday- I don’t know about what happens if you moved during the transition period and I haven’t seen similar statements from other countries but I’m not as close to them so wouldn’t necessarily have seen them.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 1, 2020)

It's EU rules. Member states don't have sovereignty on it, given they are member states. And I maintain my knobend comment for the disingenuousness. Cheers.


----------



## Manter (Feb 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> It's EU rules. Member states don't have sovereignty on it, given they are member states. And I maintain my knobend comment for the disingenuousness. Cheers.


Disingenuousness?! Oookaaay.
I’d hate to see what angry loser looks like if this is happy winner  🤷‍♀️
Enjoy it....


----------



## scifisam (Feb 2, 2020)

JimW fair enough then if you were living here at the time - I had the impression you'd been in China for several years. But the difficulties with negotiating a deal show that it wasn't really a basic question. 



Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You can get zero hours contracts. But as a UK citizen your chance to get a job on the fry station at McDonald’s in Bucharest has now gone. So it is understandable that some people on here professed to have spent yesterday crying.
> 
> Should you be after a job at CERN and you have the qualifications to land the role, I suspect that the UK leaving the EU will not present you with any barriers to taking up that position.



Who? The closest I saw was one person (who isn't a remainer or a leaver, since she's not British and didn't have a vote), saying that Auld Lang Syne briefly brought tears to her eyes. That's not spending the day crying. 

Proper Tidy no, I really don't think there were people in an absolute meltdown. Considering the topic, and the ability of most urbs to get angry at the word hello, it was all pretty calm.


----------



## JimW (Feb 2, 2020)

Yeah, I'd also been here many years previously, so can see how that would be the impression you'd get.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 2, 2020)

Manter said:


> Er, your last line is projecting a bit? I’ve never said you are far right! I’m just not sure why you’re so angry. You’ve won. 🤷‍♀️





Manter said:


> you are the two that seem crossest! You are both leavers and neither very happy to have got what you wanted. I just don’t get it.


Like I've said numerous times - an utter inability to see beyond Leave vs Remain. That is all that exists. You claim to understand the "differences are between lexit and ukipy reasons" but you the quotes above show that you don't or at least don't understand why those on here that voted Leave did so. 
This comes through in all your posts 


Manter said:


> Whatever I say is just background noise really - *we* have left, there is a transition period which isn’t long enough to get any meaningful arrangements in place so *we* will be completely cut free and on *our* own this time next year.


(my emphasis) 
One of the oddities of the liberal argument is the nationalist basis of its supposed anti-nationalism. The liberal argument for leaving/remaining is not analysed from a class perspective, in fact it _cannot_ be analysed from a class perspective, it can only be conceived by accepting the "national" conflict offered by competing visions of capital.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 2, 2020)

As I said, knobend 🤷‍♀️


----------



## existentialist (Feb 2, 2020)

RTWL said:


> stop. STOP! You people are trying to deny that the right wing in this country are feeling empwered ? Or just pointlessly nitpicking . If you havent experienced the recent surge of right wing empowerment in your lives then i guess you are not working class ?


There is something quite annoying about some n00b barrelling in, and naïvely calling out long-standing members of this established community in the way you are doing.

Stop being annoying.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2020)

existentialist said:


> There is something quite annoying about some n00b barrelling in, and naïvely calling out long-standing members of this established community in the way you are doing.
> 
> Stop being annoying.


Might be worth the newbie's while taking a peek back at threads like:

Ukip - why are they gaining support?

& 

Characterising UKIP?

to see how some long-standing members of this community have attempted to monitor and analyse the rise of right-wing populism in this country.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Might be worth the newbie's while taking a peek back at threads like:
> 
> Ukip - why are they gaining support?
> 
> ...


Interesting to see from 2020, that only 4 years ago our Italian expert insisting that lega nord were strictly regional, nothing else. We are moving fast.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 2, 2020)

existentialist said:


> There is something quite annoying about some n00b barrelling in, and naïvely calling out long-standing members of this established community in the way you are doing.
> 
> Stop being annoying.



Yer ... well you lot annoy me too . This is an open forum right ? So fuck off with your misguided tribalism... this bord is good yes... but dont let that go to your head. It`s establisment can still be questioned .... that`s unless your going for totall Tyranny, in which case... ban me.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 2, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Yer ... well you lot annoy me too . This is an open forum right ? So fuck off with your misguided tribalism... this bord is good yes... but dont let that go to your head. It`s establisment can still be questioned .... that`s unless your going for totall Tyranny, in which case... ban me.


Wind... your... neck... in... sunshine... 

Anyway what's wrong with totall Tyranny?


----------



## RTWL (Feb 2, 2020)

It hurts free exchange and debate and corrupts the souls of those who hold it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 2, 2020)

SpineyNorman said:


> Anyway what's wrong with totall Tyranny?



The criminally underrated straight-to-video sequel to Total Recall?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 2, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> The criminally underrated straight-to-video sequel to Total Recall?


I thought they were a post punk band, decent first album but went all shit and self indulgent with the second.


----------



## rekil (Feb 2, 2020)

Teetotal Tyranny: This Time He's Sober


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 2, 2020)

RTWL said:


> It hurts free exchange and debate and corrupts the souls of those who hold it.



You can get a cream for it now though.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 2, 2020)

Heroin cream


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 2, 2020)

Supine said:


> The problem you have posting this is that leavers will skim the details and they will ignore the bits they don't like.


Yup only leavers do this and only on posts about Brexit on these boards


----------



## rekil (Feb 2, 2020)

Total Tyranny IV - Absolut Tyranny: Back To The Bottle


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 2, 2020)

Anyone know what the yellow and black flag with the red circle represents that was waving at the Brexit rally? I haven’t seen it before.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2020)

Oh god it's that banned drug raver did everything old crusty zaphod isn't it?


----------



## RTWL (Feb 2, 2020)

Who? ... shit ok busted  

*gets coat


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 2, 2020)

Manter said:


> Yesterday, if I collapsed in the airport I’d have the full German healthcare system looking after me, just because I have a piece of plastic in my wallet.



So you're transiting on your way back from, say Thailand and you collapse at Frankfurt Airport? Your travel insurance that you had for Thailand would cover you in Germany. 





			
				Manter said:
			
		

> We don’t know what the future will look like, but I’ve moved to non EU countries before and it requires visas, permissions, financial declarations, proof you can maintain your family, qualifying periods, employment restrictions, regulations about what you can do or not do when you’re there and what equipment you can take with you, how many days you can spend where....and I am still filing tax returns for somewhere I haven’t lived for 15 years, and get shit from border security every time I go back.
> 
> Hey, it may be fine. Almost certainly will be for people like me, even though I just lost my job for the second time for tedious brexity reasons. Doesn’t mean I have to like it, or the uncertainty it brings. And at a really fundamental level I liked being part of something bigger than this.... island. And nationalism and the sort of rhetoric we’ve seen for c the last 4 years makes my skin itch. (And anything that makes someone like Widdicombe happy makes me nervous)



No, we don't know what it will look like, but the best guess is 'not much different to day'. We have never needed visas to visit France or Spain. Working in either was never a massive issue either, even once we had EU freedom of movement you still had to register in the country, make tax payment arrangements etc. There will most likely be a bit more admin to attend to, but it won't be insurmountable by any means.




			
				Manter said:
			
		

> incidentally, the rules on refugee passports changed without warning or communication on 18th January. A number of refugee friends found themselves unable to travel- it took me hours to find the documentation that had affected them, the Home Office didn’t give a shit. A Sudanese friend had his paperwork torn up in front of him, causing him no end of distress given what he’s been through. That sort of arbitrary cruelty to ‘others’ will, I fear, become more frequent now.



That's nasty, but that was done by an EU member state, so not sure what the relevance is here?


----------



## keybored (Feb 2, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Oh god it's that banned drug raver did everything old crusty zaphod isn't it?


Ralph
The
Wearisome
Llama


----------



## existentialist (Feb 2, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Yer ... well you lot annoy me too . This is an open forum right ? So fuck off with your misguided tribalism... this bord is good yes... but dont let that go to your head. It`s establisment can still be questioned .... that`s unless your going for totall Tyranny, in which case... ban me.


----------



## Manter (Feb 2, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So you're transiting on your way back from, say Thailand and you collapse at Frankfurt Airport? Your travel insurance that you had for Thailand would cover you in Germany.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I suspect my life- spending half of it out of the UK- is going to feel quite different. Brexiteers telling me it won’t does rather make me wonder what the point of all the cost, division and so on is 🤷‍♀️ 

The relevance is that the UK government is now unchecked. A far right government with a huge majority who answers to nobody: the vulnerable will get it in the neck first.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 2, 2020)

Manter said:


> ...the vulnerable will get it in the neck first.



According to Sky News (AU), UK is heading for economic boom.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 2, 2020)

Lol.


----------



## Manter (Feb 2, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> According to Sky News (Aus), UK is heading for economic boom.



Bless


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 2, 2020)

Manter said:


> Bless



Ok then, let’s go with the prophets of doom and gloom and start preparing for an economic nuclear winter.


----------



## JimW (Feb 2, 2020)

Feels to me that hiding behind the skirts of the EU was never the right way to address the resurgence in right-wing populism, quite the reverse in fact. For better or worse in brings the political battle closer to home where it always should have been.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2020)

keybored said:


> Ralph
> The
> Wearisome
> Llama


Ralph the wanky loser


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Ok then, let’s go with the prophets of doom and gloom and start preparing for an economic nuclear winter.


The prophets of doom and gloom who released the album start preparing for an economic nuclear winter? Who then all topped themselves?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 2, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Ok then, let’s go with the prophets of doom and gloom and start preparing for an economic nuclear winter.


Yes, those are the two choices. Breathless optimism or depressive pessimism. Best just choose to believe whatever the right wing media tell us I guess. 

All hail the new dawn of endless prosperity triggered by nothing really changing at all.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 2, 2020)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yes, those are the two choices. Breathless optimism or depressive pessimism. Best just choose to believe whatever the right wing media tell us I guess.
> 
> All hail the new dawn of endless prosperity triggered by nothing really changing at all.



Yeah, well - Boris had better deliver the goods economically, especially now he’s taken virtually all of Labours wc voters.  No pressure then.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 2, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> he’s taken virtually all of Labours wc voters.



This is just drivel. You're an idiot.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 2, 2020)

JimW said:


> Feels to me that hiding behind the skirts of the EU was never the right way to address the resurgence in right-wing populism, quite the reverse in fact. For better or worse in brings the political battle closer to home where it always should have been.


I've no idea what you mean by 'hiding behind the skirts of the EU'. But feels to me right now that giving r/w populism a massive political victory in the shape of Johnson's election win and the subsequent tory-led brexit is pretty much the worst way to address the resurgence in r/w populism. Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer defeating r/w populism over losing to it as a strategy.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 2, 2020)

JimW said:


> Feels to me that hiding behind the skirts of the EU was never the right way to address the resurgence in right-wing populism, quite the reverse in fact. For better or worse in brings the political battle closer to home where it always should have been.


If that's true Jim why do none of the EU countries have right-wing populist parties gaining votes? Eh?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 2, 2020)

We need govt kept in check by [checks notes] another bigger govt but with an unelected executive


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> We need govt kept in check by [checks notes] another bigger govt but with an unelected executive


Cognitive dissonance, the last refuge of the liberal


----------



## keybored (Feb 2, 2020)

Manter said:


> The relevance is that the UK government is now unchecked. *A far right government *with a huge majority who answers to nobody: the vulnerable will get it in the neck first.


We don't have a far right government, but you could look to Hungary to see how the EU "checks" its further-to-the-right and less democratic members.









						Europe’s Failure to Protect Liberty in Hungary
					

An erosion of media freedoms in the country has continued with little punishment from the European Union, which professes to defend liberal values.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 2, 2020)

keybored said:


> We don't have a far right government, but you could look to Hungary to see how the EU "checks" its further-to-the-right and less democratic members.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Depending on the point you want to prove, the EU appears to be simultaneously all-powerful and not powerful enough.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 2, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Depending on the point you want to prove, the EU appears to be simultaneously all-powerful and not powerful enough.



Or it exerts its power to defend or further the interests of capital but doesn't to protect the interests of labour, or vulnerable people, so on. That would be another reading.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 2, 2020)

I did support Remain.

Does not mean to say I think the EU is great.

On workers rghts. This country should not have to depend on EU for them. Outside the EU its possible to elect government to pass laws to protect workers.

On economy. Fortunately the UK was not in the Eurozone. Greece is particular is case where elected left government was destroyed by EU. The economic crisis showed that the EU will impose austerity on a country even when its been rejected by the people of that member country. What was done to Greece was neo liberal austerity imposed on a country from above.

I was Remain as it was being pushed by the anti immigraton right in this country.  I also didnt like that the residents of UK from other parts of EU did not get a vote in the Referendum.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 2, 2020)

Double post. Don't know why that happened. Same as above but came out twice.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Or it exerts its power to defend or further the interests of capital but doesn't to protect the interests of labour, or vulnerable people, so on. That would be another reading.


Except when it does - GDPR for instance is directly in opposition to the interests of modern capitalists. Would that have been such a significant issue for them if it wasn't across a large number of profitable markets?

You'll excuse even the more cynical of people for preferring "occasionally and unreliably a positive influence" to "never a positive influence because it isn't there".


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 2, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Except when it does - GDPR for instance is directly in opposition to the interests of modern capitalists. Would that have been such a significant issue for them if it wasn't across a large number of profitable markets?
> 
> You'll excuse even the more cynical of people for preferring "occasionally and unreliably a positive influence" to "never a positive influence because it isn't there".



Of course sometimes it's a positive influence. Like any govt. Not sure GDPR the best example. Firstly, it's a bit of a shit gain, all things considered. Secondly, it was about universalising data rules across the EU, to the advantage of european capital and to the disadvantage of non-EU capital.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Of course sometimes it's a positive influence. Like any govt. Not sure GDPR the best example. Firstly, it's a bit of a shit gain, all things considered. Secondly, it was about universalising data rules across the EU, to the advantage of european capital and to the disadvantage of non-EU capital.



Also improves the marketability of data as a legitimate asset/product. One too many Cambridge Analytica type situations and the whole thing might to start looking like a criminal enterprise/black market. That which is done by the book, no matter how shit the book may be, is worth more money.


----------



## chilango (Feb 2, 2020)

Hang on...we're not actually chalking GDPR as a workers' victory are we?


----------



## Anju (Feb 2, 2020)

Here's one thing that has already changed. Our leaving has been such a shambles that I doubt many people other than those in more senior positions in areas that have the potential to be affected have any real idea. 

I'm surprised that those of a lexit disposition seem so certain that the institutions they are so opposed to will do the right thing by all us normal people. 

https://www.thelocal.it/20200131/how-the-rules-for-italian-citizenship-change-for-brits-from-today


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2020)

> I'm surprised that those of a lexit disposition seem so certain that the institutions they are so opposed to will do the right thing by all us normal people.



What?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 2, 2020)

I def have loads of faith in the institutions of british democracy, that's fundamental to my political viewpoint


----------



## Maltin (Feb 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> We need govt kept in check by [checks notes] another bigger govt but with an unelected executive


So what’s your alternative? Do you “keep them in check”? How is that going for you with the Conservative party in charge for at least 15 years? While you might not agree with a bigger government keeping them in check surely it is better than just leaving it to the media (who generally don’t seem to care about what the government is doing) and a public vote every 5 years where recently there does not seem as if there is any chance of change. What have the EU stopped our government from doing that was aimed to be positive?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2020)

This post is literal evidence for my post earlier.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 2, 2020)

Maltin said:


> So what’s your alternative? Do you “keep them in check”? How is that going for you with the Conservative party in charge for at least 15 years? While you might not agree with a bigger government keeping them in check surely it is better than just leaving it to the media (who generally don’t seem to care about what the government is doing) and a public vote every 5 years where recently there does not seem as if there is any chance of change. What have the EU stopped our government from doing that was aimed to be positive?



See my earlier post about the pathetic passive mentality of relying on a bureaucracy to hold govt to account


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Of course sometimes it's a positive influence. Like any govt. Not sure GDPR the best example. Firstly, it's a bit of a shit gain, all things considered. Secondly, it was about universalising data rules across the EU, to the advantage of european capital and to the disadvantage of non-EU capital.


Hold on, no it isn't to the advantage of EU vs non-EU capital, but mostly it was an example of something that is now a bit better vs not existing at all. The point being that raising examples like Hungary or in fact plenty of other situations where the EU has done nothing to help doesn't do anything apart from attack a naive "the EU is just fabulous all the time" position which is a straw man.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 2, 2020)

chilango said:


> Hang on...we're not actually chalking GDPR as a workers' victory are we?


Having GDPR is definitely better than not having GDPR, even if it could have been done better.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 2, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Hold on, no it isn't to the advantage of EU vs non-EU capital, but mostly it was an example of something that is now a bit better vs not existing at all. The point being that raising examples like Hungary or in fact plenty of other situations where the EU has done nothing to help don't do anything apart from attack a naive "the EU is just fabulous all the time" position which is a straw man.



It very clearly does advantage EU capital over non EU capital in terms of access to EU markets though. Which is the point of the EU


----------



## Anju (Feb 2, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> What?



Just refering to posts that are claiming nothing has or will change before the end of the year.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Hold on, no it isn't to the advantage of EU vs non-EU capital, but mostly it was an example of something that is now a bit better vs not existing at all. The point being that raising examples like Hungary or in fact plenty of other situations where the EU has done nothing to help don't do anything apart from attack a naive "the EU is just fabulous all the time" position which is a straw man.


We don't see much criticism on here or elsewhere of the EU from people who voted remain, now matter how often we hear that it's not perfect. I'd say there's been pretty much a supportive silence and that all the bad things (not specified ever, and what they are going to be doing to oppose them) are the price they're prepared to pay for things which may have incidental benefits whilst not intending to do so, such as GDPR. I've been trying to get this supposed group of not-that keen on the EU but group to say a damn thing about this for three years to not a single response.


----------



## chilango (Feb 2, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> We don't see much criticism on here or elsewhere of the EU from people who voted remain, now matter how often we hear that it's not perfect. I'd say there's been pretty much a supportive silence and that all the bad things (not specified ever, and what they are going to be doing to oppose them) are the price they're prepared to pay for things which may have incidental benefits whilst not intending to do so, such as GDPR. I've been trying to get this supposed group of not-that keen on the EU but group to say a damn thing about this for three years to not a single response.



I dunno.

From memory, I think there's a few of us on here who take loosely "Lexity" positions but who voted Remain on the day for various reasons.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 2, 2020)

chilango said:


> I dunno.
> 
> From memory, I think there's a few of us on here who take loosely "Lexity" positions but who voted Remain on the day for various reasons.


Me for a start.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2020)

chilango said:


> I dunno.
> 
> From memory, I think there's a few of us on here who take loosely "Lexity" positions but who voted Remain on the day for various reasons.


I'm on about people who take clear remain positions not wishy washies like you. I've managed to get nothing at all out of them in three years - here or outwith.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 2, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> We don't see much criticism on here or elsewhere of the EU from people who voted remain, now matter how often we hear that it's not perfect. I'd say there's been pretty much a supportive silence and that all the bad things (not specified ever, and what they are going to be doing to oppose them) are the price they're prepared to pay for things which may have incidental benefits whilst not intending to do so, such as GDPR. I've been trying to get this supposed group of not-that keen on the EU but group to say a damn thing about this for three years to not a single response.


I don't think it's surprising that in remain/leave threads people aren't going to criticise the EU a lot if they support a remain position. That's more about the dynamic of the discussion than anything else tbh. It doesn't mean that they don't have any criticisms.

I don't know what difference it would make if they did either. There'd be a lot of "see? see? how can you vote for that?" finger pointing, on the basis that a remain vote is intrinsically supporting everything the EU does, and that means you've _lost the internet_. I gave up bothering ages ago.

eta: there is always going to be an aspect of "the price you are prepared to pay", that in itself isn't a problem. I voted Labour ffs.


----------



## Gerry1time (Feb 2, 2020)

I just saw my Brexit supporting taxi driving friend again, and I asked how his party went on Friday night. He said it was good, but apparently he was a bit put out as there had been strangers there, who had come from as far away as a village five miles away. I’m beginning to understand why he may look at continental europeans a bit sceptically.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't think it's surprising that in remain/leave threads people aren't going to criticise the EU a lot if they support a remain position. That's more about the dynamic of the discussion than anything else tbh. It doesn't mean that they don't have any criticisms.
> 
> I don't know what difference it would make if they did either. There'd be a lot of "see? see? how can you vote for that?" finger pointing, on the basis that a remain vote is intrinsically supporting everything the EU does, and that means you've _lost the internet_. I gave up bothering ages ago.
> 
> eta: there is always going to be an aspect of "the price you are prepared to pay", that in itself isn't a problem. I voted Labour ffs.


Of course, i shouldn't probably have mentioned 'on here'. I have been running around trying to find some common ground locally for stuff to move forward on based on common experiences and understandings of what the EU is and does (obv i only want the negative ones), and i've come up empty. I understand that polarisation is at work (and it's something i welcome) but to be so scared to criticise the EU now suggest to me either a wider political cowardice or a wider political stupidity. But yes, we are all a bit trapped in that way you suggest.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2020)

Gerry1time said:


> I just saw my Brexit supporting taxi driving friend again, and I asked how his party went on Friday night. He said it was good, but apparently he was a bit put out as there had been strangers there, who had come from as far away as a village five miles away. I’m beginning to understand why he may look at continental europeans a bit sceptically.


All a bit Royston Vasey?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Of course, i shouldn't probably have mentioned 'on here'. I have been running around trying to find some common ground locally for stuff to move forward on based on common experiences and understandings of what the EU is and does (obv i only want the negative ones), and i've come up empty. I understand that polarisation is at work (and it's something i welcome) but to be so scared to criticise the EU now suggest to me either a wider political cowardice or a wider political stupidity. But yes, we are all a bit trapped in that way you suggest.


Perhaps now is precisely the time to open a (new) thread to discuss the supra-state, as we're no longer part of it?


----------



## Wilf (Feb 2, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't think it's surprising that in remain/leave threads people aren't going to criticise the EU a lot if they support a remain position. That's more about the dynamic of the discussion than anything else tbh. It doesn't mean that they don't have any criticisms.
> 
> I don't know what difference it would make if they did either. There'd be a lot of "see? see? how can you vote for that?" finger pointing, on the basis that a remain vote is intrinsically supporting everything the EU does, and that means you've _lost the internet_. I gave up bothering ages ago.
> 
> eta: there is always going to be an aspect of "the price you are prepared to pay", that in itself isn't a problem. I voted Labour ffs.


This has all got funnelled into the Brexit vote and events through to now, Labour's shambles over Brexit and the rest. But Brexit should just be a case study, even if it is a massive one. The bigger failure is the lack of a critique of neo liberalism inside the EU and outside - a failure that somehow left too many people open to seeing the EU as the repository of liberalism, 'progress' and multiculturalism. This, to me, just feels like a deeper failure of the left more generally.  We came into the whole Brexit shitshow with both a lack of self confidence and dodgy politics. And, fwiw, Corbynism amplified rather than resolved those problems.

Not aimed at you by the way, just seemed a convenient point to park it.


----------



## Maltin (Feb 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> See my earlier post about the pathetic passive mentality of relying on a bureaucracy to hold govt to account


So you have no realistic alternative then?


----------



## chilango (Feb 2, 2020)

Wilf said:


> ...the EU as the repository of liberalism, 'progress' and multiculturalism. .



Which may well be true, to a point. The problem being us that these values are perfectly compatible with, and promoted by, elements of capital.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 2, 2020)

chilango said:


> Which may well be true, to a point. The problem being us that these values are perfectly compatible with, and promoted by, elements of capital.


Yep.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Perhaps now is precisely the time to open a (new) thread to discuss the supra-state, as we're no longer part of it?


Well, there's  certainly the opp to do so given that the unelected and democratically unaccountable leaders  wasted no time in using the UK exit to aggressively push the ever closer union agenda. What will that mean for the w/c within the EU, those they intend to chase to the bottom of the barrel externally, what it mean in terms of extension of fortress europe further and further in to africa, the use of eufrica as a cheap workforce brought in and sold them sent back like slave traders of old, whilst more and more neo-liberal imperatives imposed on these societies as  price of basic trade.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 2, 2020)

Maltin said:


> So you have no realistic alternative then?



You know this is just reinforcing my point don't you


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 2, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Of course, i shouldn't probably have mentioned 'on here'. I have been running around trying to find some common ground locally for stuff to move forward on based on common experiences and understandings of what the EU is and does (obv i only want the negative ones), and i've come up empty. I understand that polarisation is at work (and it's something i welcome) but to be so scared to criticise the EU now suggest to me either a wider political cowardice or a wider political stupidity. But yes, we are all a bit trapped in that way you suggest.


My instant reaction if somebody asked me what I thought of the EU would be wonder why they wanted to know, and assume that it was for some factional goal. I have to feel pretty comfortable in a situation - or just not care - before I would be prepared to say just anything. I don't think this is very unusual and I don't know how long it will take for it to not be an issue, but it will definitely be years.


----------



## Maltin (Feb 2, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Of course, i shouldn't probably have mentioned 'on here'. I have been running around trying to find some common ground locally for stuff to move forward on based on common experiences and understandings of what the EU is and does (obv i only want the negative ones), and i've come up empty. I understand that polarisation is at work (and it's something i welcome) but to be so scared to criticise the EU now suggest to me either a wider political cowardice or a wider political stupidity. But yes, we are all a bit trapped in that way you suggest.


What are you proposing to move forward on? It’s obviously very easy to be critical of the EU. The main issue to me is what now after we have so called “left” the EU? How do you stop the current government from delivering the worst of what they promise and from the economy tanking and more people becoming unemployed and austerity becoming worse? How does focusing on the flaws of the EU help with that?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 2, 2020)

In terms of what it means for the w/c left in the EU, thought the last sentence of this little excert from Macron's facebook post on friday interesting


----------



## Maltin (Feb 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> You know this is just reinforcing my point don't you


If you say so. To me it just looks like you have nothing to say.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> My instant reaction if somebody asked me what I thought of the EU would be wonder why they wanted to know, and assume that it was for some factional goal. I have to feel pretty comfortable in a situation - or just not care - before I would be prepared to say just anything. I don't think this is very unusual and I don't know how long it will take for it to not be an issue, but it will definitely be years.


Oh god yeah, i don't mean polling/bothering on the street, i mean people i know and have been working with for donkeys years or been in my/our orbit.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 2, 2020)

chilango said:


> Which may well be true, to a point. The problem being us that these values are perfectly compatible with, and promoted by, elements of capital.





chilango said:


> Which may well be true, to a point. The problem being us that these values are perfectly compatible with, and promoted by, elements of capital.


I suppose one question is why did much of the 'left' end up wedded to the EU and the extent to which that left had shifted its aims towards liberalism, progress and state/top-down multiculturalism. A shift that certainly left the Labour Party in a position where it seemed unable to take even the most basic sensible steps around Brexit (right through to the gen election idiocies). Or alternatively, how that same left has lost the ability to have better goals and a better politics.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> My instant reaction if somebody asked me what I thought of the EU would be wonder why they wanted to know, and assume that it was for some factional goal. I have to feel pretty comfortable in a situation - or just not care - before I would be prepared to say just anything. I don't think this is very unusual and I don't know how long it will take for it to not be an issue, but it will definitely be years.


That's interesting.
Makes me think that perhaps the willingness to critique the supra-state comes that much more naturally to those who share an antipathy to states in general.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 2, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't think it's surprising that in remain/leave threads people aren't going to criticise the EU a lot if they support a remain position. That's more about the dynamic of the discussion than anything else tbh. It doesn't mean that they don't have any criticisms.



This^ I was going to post something identical to this but you did it for me.  As someone who's basic position is "remain and reform" I would like to talk much more about the "reform" aspect, but the discourse on Brexit meant that you just end up defending the EU more nuanced and informed debate on reform gets lost.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2020)

Maltin said:


> What are you proposing to move forward on? It’s obviously very easy to be critical of the EU. The main issue to me is what now after we have so called “left” the EU? How do you stop the current government from delivering the worst of what they promise and from the economy tanking and more people becoming unemployed and austerity becoming worse? How does focusing on the flaws of the EU help with that?


I wasn't proposing, that was the point. I was asking what common grounds there are between a remain left and a leave left. I look forward to people like you being as active out there as you you were opposing cuts etc as you were before the referendum.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That's interesting.
> Makes me think that perhaps the willingness to critique the supra-state comes that much more naturally to those who share an antipathy to states in general.


I don't really see how - it just reflects that I assume they're likely to be asking it so they can have a go if I'm not on their side.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That's interesting.
> Makes me think that perhaps the willingness to critique the supra-state comes that much more naturally to those who share an antipathy to states in general.


Nah.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> more o
> 
> I don't really see how - it just reflects that I assume they're likely to be asking it so they can have a go if I'm not on their side.


You may well be right; I'm not in position to comment on that, having never really adopted a 'side' on the question.


----------



## Anju (Feb 2, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> We don't see much criticism on here or elsewhere of the EU from people who voted remain, now matter how often we hear that it's not perfect. I'd say there's been pretty much a supportive silence and that all the bad things (not specified ever, and what they are going to be doing to oppose them) are the price they're prepared to pay for things which may have incidental benefits whilst not intending to do so, such as GDPR. I've been trying to get this supposed group of not-that keen on the EU but group to say a damn thing about this for three years to not a single response.



That's probably partially because a lot of people didn't / don't fully understand how and why the EU works, on both sides.

I've read quite a lot about fortress Europe since looking past the very few MSM things I had seen, including some links you posted.  The EU approach to migration is shameful and inexcusable.

The thing I can't see is what the alternative to the EU is. Surely if migration policy was left to individual nations it would be even worse for those trying to get to counties in Europe. It would be a fast race to the bottom as whichever country had the best registration and settlement system would attract disproportionate numbers and it would spiral ever downwards from there. We'd end up with Johnson arming Britain first on their Dover beach patrols.

In terms of what people might do to change things it's difficult to know. A bit of eye opening needs to occur. I've never seen anything on social media about what the EU is doing regarding migration and very little in normal media, print, online or TV. Everyone I have spoken to about this aspect of the EU has been shocked and wanted to learn more, including a couple of friends who came here as refugees in the 80s. You assume that people don't care or are OK to let things slide. I think people would care. The reality just needs to be a bit more in your face for people, as evidenced by the reactions to things like that picture of the drowned child on the beach. The reaction fades because it's not something people want to confront and they can forget about it because it's filed away as an anomaly and not as an event that's happening daily because of EU policy.

EU elections seem like a possible route to gaining some influence (not now in Britain of course). Maybe an alliance of smaller groups involved in supporting refugees in individual countries and attempts to work with and support those groups within the EU who advocate for better migration policy.  

Whatever the best way forward is I don't think Britain leaving the EU is a part of it. 

Nothing else from the lexit perspective seems as clear cut. State aid rules are not as cut and dry as they're portrayed by the left and a majority of cases opposed by the EU are won by the country wanting to intervene. As a country trying to get trade deals we're going to be more likely to have to follow any restrictions where as a long term member of the EU we would have a better chance of bending or changing rules to achieve what we want. Basically we will be subject to anti competition rules wherever we go so why not stay in a position where we have the most leeway and influence. 

You say that remain voters haven't offered any suggestions on how to improve the EU when at the same time claiming that it's not up to leave voters to offer solutions to the problems they have contributed to and the need for collective action on some issues is totally ignored.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 2, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> more o
> 
> I don't really see how - it just reflects that I assume they're likely to be asking it so they can have a go if I'm not on their side.



Indeed. Similarly I've not seen many advantages of the EU pointed out by Leavers. It's a function of having arguments rather than discussions. 

I have a feeling Remainers see the advantages of a 'socially liberal' EU while Leavers see the disadvantages of a 'politically liberal = neoliberal' that the EU brings by stealth.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 2, 2020)

Anju said:


> The thing I can't see is what the alternative to the EU is.



A country so vile it puts children in cages, pumps them full of mind altering drugs and then boasts about it.

A country that is institutionaly racist and seems to promote sexual abuse and random homacide .

America basicaly .


----------



## YouSir (Feb 2, 2020)

RTWL said:


> A country so vile it puts children in cages, pumps them full of mind altering drugs and then boasts about it.
> 
> A country that is institutionaly racist and seems to promote sexual abuse and random homacide .
> 
> America basicaly .



Are you aware of what the EU does with non EU refugees and asylum seekers?


----------



## rekil (Feb 2, 2020)

YouSir said:


> Are you aware of what the EU does with non EU refugees and asylum seekers?


The one who wagged her finger at Farage here.









						Fine Gael MEPs criticised for voting against move to enhance rescue operations for migrants
					

The EU parliament rejected a vote asking member states to step up efforts to save asylum seekers in the Mediterranean.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 2, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Ok that’s your view , I disagree and when I go back to Harlesden I find there are a wider views on the subject .



On Brexit day I did get a wider view. ( look I come from area that was 80% Rmain. It is unusual for me to meet any one who suppports Brexit.)

A van driver I help sometimes said to me ( and I didnt bring it up) on Friday  that he thought it was ok leaving. He isnt normally one to talk about politics. If UK had stayed in EU he would not have been  that bothered. He thought he might go to celebrate in Parliament square.

In his view the upside of Brexit was that immigrants would start to leave this country. Leaving more work for British workers like us.

He said he'd been talking to the Poles and Brazilian drivers and they were thinking of going now Brexit is going ahead.

I did have to remind him my partner is one of these migrants. He of course didn't mean my partner.

I found the whole conversation depressing.  Brexit meant that he could come out with this to me like it was ok. He's not an out and out racist . We work for companies that are spread across EU. Meet a lot of people from other countries.​
It was him saying that the Brazilians might go that got me . This means he thought Brexit is message to people not to treat this country as their own as Boris said. This is the new normal now.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 2, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> On Brexit day I did get a wider view. ( look I come from area that was 80% Rmain. It is unusual for me to meet any one wo suppports Brexit.)
> 
> A van driver I help sometimes said to me ( and I didnt bring it up) on Friday said that he thought it was ok leaving. He isnt normally one to talk about politics. If UK had stayed in EU he would not have been  that bothered. He thought he might go to celebrate in Parliament square.
> 
> ...



I know a Hungarian driver at work who has British citizenship who hopes there will be less migrants now - the inference is the less pool of drivers available, the better it will be in the long run for job security and wages.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 2, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> I know a Hungarian driver at work who has British citizenship who hopes there will be less migrants now - the inference is the less pool of drivers available, the better it will be in the long run for job security and wages.



Yes im aware of that view.

Its not one  I have a lot of time for.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 2, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> I know a Hungarian driver at work who has British citizenship who hopes there will be less migrants now - the inference is the less pool of drivers available, the better it will be in the long run for job security and wages.


I wonder what his definition of "migrants" looks like.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 2, 2020)

YouSir said:


> Are you aware of what the EU does with non EU refugees and asylum seekers?


You favour the US over the EU. Are you an arms manufacturer?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 2, 2020)

RTWL said:


> You favour the US over the EU. Are you an arms manufacturer?



Are you a fifteen year old from 2003


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 2, 2020)

tbf the UK did not have to leave the EU to sell arms

was doing just fine Selling arms within the EU


----------



## RTWL (Feb 2, 2020)

Was talking bollox there... I should have said sadist ...


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2020)

Good work















						‘I hope they can see this’ - ‘Happy Brexit Day’ tower tenants gather to protest against poster
					

Dozens of people have gathered outside of the Norwich tower where a racist poster was put up, united in a single message - not in our...




					www.eveningnews24.co.uk


----------



## YouSir (Feb 3, 2020)

RTWL said:


> You favour the US over the EU. Are you an arms manufacturer?



What?


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 3, 2020)

RTWL said:


> A country so vile it puts children in cages, pumps them full of mind altering drugs and then boasts about it.
> 
> A country that is institutionaly racist and seems to promote sexual abuse and random homacide .
> 
> America basicaly .



Are you mrjoshua?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2020)

I never saw any of the party shenanigans. Was there singing? Did they have a Farage Look-A-Likey?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 4, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> I know a Hungarian driver at work who has British citizenship who hopes there will be less migrants now - the inference is the less pool of drivers available, the better it will be in the long run for job security and wages.



I knew an Italian bloke from Naples who was pretty well off, firmly middle class even he’s grown up poor, had his family here from Italy and everything.

He was a complete leave obsessive. He fucking loved it and was happy as Larry leave had won.

The mind boggles.


----------



## editor (Feb 4, 2020)




----------



## Wilf (Feb 4, 2020)

editor said:


> View attachment 197566


FFS!


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2020)

editor said:


> View attachment 197566


That really is one of the worst remainer memes.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2020)

A new low.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 4, 2020)

Innit. Fucking tiring when people just will not listen


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 4, 2020)

TopCat said:


> That really is one of the worst remainer memes.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 4, 2020)

Great interjection, there


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 4, 2020)

editor said:


> View attachment 197566


editor you've posted this without comment. What are YOU saying, exactly?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 4, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I never saw any of the party shenanigans. Was there singing? Did they have a Farage Look-A-Likey?


They had Farage proper. It was a UKIP rally.
They did have one musical act, Dominic Frisby. He sang this


Other singing included spontaneous God Save The Queen


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 4, 2020)

TopCat said:


> That really is one of the worst remainer memes.



Nazis of course famously isolationist and against the idea of a greater europe


----------



## RTWL (Feb 4, 2020)

ska invita said:


> They had Farage proper. It was a UKIP rally.
> They did have one musical act, Dominic Frisby. He sang this
> 
> 
> Other singing included spontaneous God Save The Queen




It was like the piedpiper throwing a cringe inducingly patronising party for the rats.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 4, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I never saw any of the party shenanigans. Was there singing? Did they have a Farage Look-A-Likey?



Yeah, but they were basically playing to a handful of people who could be bothered to turn up.



And, those who did turn up were old bald white men.



Luckily the BBC’s reporting of it all was with their usual signature impartiality.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 4, 2020)

You would have to be a wanker to go to that, there is no getting away from how much of a bellend you'd have to be. Also it looks shit


----------



## RTWL (Feb 4, 2020)

Hello Marty1 . Are you a fan of the Farage ?!


----------



## editor (Feb 4, 2020)

S☼I said:


> editor you've posted this without comment. What are YOU saying, exactly?


I thought it was self explanatory in its moronic stupidity when some fucking twat compares VE Day - something that was celebrated by around 100% of the population (minus, perhaps a few spies) - with Brexit, something that was narrowly pushed through on a bag of lies by xenophobic cunts like Farage, and something that has had a clear correlation with growing racism and intolerance.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 4, 2020)

S☼I said:


> editor you've posted this without comment. What are YOU saying, exactly?


A good question.


----------



## RTWL (Feb 4, 2020)

editor said:


> I thought it was self explanatory in its moronic stupidity when some fucking twat compares VE Day - something that was celebrated by around 100% of the population (minus, perhaps a few spies) - with Brexit, something that was narrowly pushed through on a bag of lies by xenophobic cunts like Farage, and something that has had a clear correlation with growing racism and intolerance.



A good reply.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 4, 2020)

editor said:


> I thought it was self explanatory in its moronic stupidity when some fucking twat compares VE Day - something that was celebrated by around 100% of the population (minus, perhaps a few spies) - with Brexit, something that was narrowly pushed through on a bag of lies by xenophobic cunts like Farage, and something that has had a clear correlation with growing racism and intolerance.


But do agree with 'no the nazis lost that one' comment (and its implication)?


----------



## RTWL (Feb 4, 2020)

TBF the Nazi's at least exhibited belief in what they were preaching ..... joke !

* gets coat


----------



## editor (Feb 4, 2020)

Wilf said:


> But do agree with 'no the nazis lost that one' comment (and its implication)?


I saw it as a comment on the clear and obvious connection between Brexit and the far right wing groups who have used it as a rallying call, but I was more focussed on depressing fact that some people are so fucking braindead that they compare the national celebrations of VE Day with the lamentable and pathetic sight of a bunch of flag-waving bellends at the pitiful Brexit 'party.'









						Anna Soubry saw Nazi Salutes at pro-Brexit rally where she cancelled speech
					

Ms Soubry claims a ‘large group of protesters’ with ‘yellow vests and the EDL’ had gathered.




					metro.co.uk


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 4, 2020)

The best jokes require clarification they are jokes


----------



## editor (Feb 4, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> The best jokes require clarification they are jokes


It wasn't even a joke but it's all gone a bit Queen Vic here.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 4, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Hello Marty1 . Are you a fan of the Farage ?!



Not particularly, though his EU speeches were hilarious.

Anyway, I think it’s incorrect to insinuate that a country like Australia is a bunch of racists when Farage endorses an Aussie points system of immigration and has a German wife (not directed towards you - based off other comments on here that you will no doubt agree with from what I’ve read of you so far).


----------



## RTWL (Feb 4, 2020)

Lost me. Who was insinuating Australians are racist ?


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

Brexitaaargh


----------



## maomao (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> Brexitaaargh



I saw a genuine Romford stereotype on a mobility scooter with two big fucking Union flags on it yesterday. He looked fucking miserable, you'd think he'd be smiling at least.


----------



## maomao (Feb 5, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Hello Marty1 . Are you a fan of the Farage ?!


Doubt Farage is right wing enough for Marty1 . He's our resident not-so-undercover fash.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> Brexitaaargh




Unlike you to poke fun at the poor when they have the temerity to vote in a way that conflicts with your fucked-off-to-London-get-away-from-all-those-dreadful-provincial-proles metropolitan liberalism....

I jest, of course - you don't poke fun at them, you take great glee in them losing their jobs. What was it: fuck you Port Talbot?


----------



## RTWL (Feb 5, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Unlike you to poke fun at the poor when they have the temerity to vote in a way that conflicts with your fucked-off-to-London-get-away-from-all-those-dreadful-provincial-proles metropolitan liberalism....
> 
> I jest, of course - you don't poke fun at them, you take great glee in them losing their jobs. What was it: fuck you Port Talbot?



So your defending Tommy and Bannon fans , with class ? Most of these people harbour some pretty extreme right wing ideologies which don't do the working class any favours . Also this is quite patronising .


----------



## chilango (Feb 5, 2020)

I have a couple of questions about editor's mobility scooter gif....

Is actually from a Brexit celebration? 

What's the other flag she's holding? At a quick glance it looked a bit like the Northern Ireland football badge!


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 5, 2020)

Yeah it's NI


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Unlike you to poke fun at the poor when they have the temerity to vote in a way that conflicts with your fucked-off-to-London-get-away-from-all-those-dreadful-provincial-proles metropolitan liberalism....
> 
> I jest, of course - you don't poke fun at them, you take great glee in them losing their jobs. What was it: fuck you Port Talbot?


Yeh, its wicked to mock the afflicted, it's not pretty to see someone take such merriment from an accident that could easily leave an old person with broken bones not to mention the other ill-effects a fall can have even if they're uninjured


----------



## kebabking (Feb 5, 2020)

RTWL said:


> So your defending Tommy and Bannon fans , with class ? Most of these people harbour some pretty extreme right wing ideologies which don't do the working class any favours . Also this is quite patronising .



Fuck off.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 5, 2020)

chilango said:


> I have a couple of questions about editor's mobility scooter gif....
> 
> Is actually from a Brexit celebration?
> 
> What's the other flag she's holding? At a quick glance it looked a bit like the Northern Ireland football badge!



But she’s holding a Union Jack flag so - BREXIT!

On a separate note - I get the humour of the gif as it is without it being used as a political point scoring thing but I can imagine the type of vitriol, accusations of all sorts that would be spouted if the mobility scooter crasher was holding eu flags!


----------



## RTWL (Feb 5, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Fuck off.



The national front were mainly working class . Would you use the same argument to defend them ?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 5, 2020)

RTWL said:


> The national front were mainly working class . Would you use the same argument to defend them ?



I think the way you (don't) analyse politics beyond the most superficial meaning suggests that you should go back to school. Assuming you've left...


----------



## chilango (Feb 5, 2020)

RTWL said:


> The national front were mainly working class . Would you use the same argument to defend them ?



were they?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2020)

RTWL said:


> The national front were mainly working class . Would you use the same argument to defend them ?


----------



## klang (Feb 5, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> has a German wife



once Brexit is implemented racists will be allowed German spouses again.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 5, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Unlike you to poke fun at the poor when they have the temerity to vote in a way that conflicts with your fucked-off-to-London-get-away-from-all-those-dreadful-provincial-proles metropolitan liberalism....
> 
> I jest, of course - you don't poke fun at them, you take great glee in them losing their jobs. What was it: fuck you Port Talbot?



How do you know they're poor? All sorts of people use mobility scooters. You could have gone for claiming he was poking fun at a disabled person instead - missed a trick, tsk.

I think it's VE day celebrations related though, nothing to do with Brexit. The other flag says something like "remembrance our boys."


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 5, 2020)

maomao said:


> I saw a genuine Romford stereotype on a mobility scooter with two big fucking Union flags on it yesterday. He looked fucking miserable, you'd think he'd be smiling at least.



Last time I was in Romford I saw a man with no shirt on having a heated argument with a closed branch of the co-op. From the reactions of passers by it seemed like they would have been more surprised if this had not been happening.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 5, 2020)

I went to Romford once. About 3 years ago. In my head it was going to be the epitome of cool, lauded by bands like Underworld and home to record labels like Suburban base, Strictly Underground etc in the heyday of rave. When I got there it felt like I'd landed in some 1950s time warp.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 5, 2020)

I've never been to Romford. I'm _very _middle class.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> They had Farage proper. It was a UKIP rally.
> They did have one musical act, Dominic Frisby. He sang this
> 
> 
> Other singing included spontaneous God Save The Queen



No Morris dancers then, No knees up Motherss Brown?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> I thought it was self explanatory in its moronic stupidity when some fucking twat compares VE Day - something that was celebrated by around 100% of the population (minus, perhaps a few spies) - with Brexit, something that was narrowly pushed through on a bag of lies by xenophobic cunts like Farage, and something that has had a clear correlation with growing racism and intolerance.


Hehe. You get worse. If it were possible!


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Unlike you to poke fun at the poor when they have the temerity to vote in a way that conflicts with your fucked-off-to-London-get-away-from-all-those-dreadful-provincial-proles metropolitan liberalism....
> 
> I jest, of course - you don't poke fun at them, you take great glee in them losing their jobs. What was it: fuck you Port Talbot?


No solidarity for the Welsh or the Greeks.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2020)

scifisam said:


> How do you know they're poor? All sorts of people use mobility scooters. You could have gone for claiming he was poking fun at a disabled person instead - missed a trick, tsk.
> 
> I think it's VE day celebrations related though, nothing to do with Brexit. The other flag says something like "remembrance our boys."


The sovereignty of parliament, something the british working class fought for has been restored. 
Pity the remainers fought so hard to stymie the result we ended up with more Tory rule eh? You lot fucked the best chance of democratic socialism we have had. The fucking gall of you to moan about it. 

Middle class entitled scum is what comes to mind when I hear shit about thick racist gammons.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The sovereignty of parliament, something the british working class fought for has been restored.
> Pity the remainers fought so hard to stymie the result we ended up with more Tory rule eh? You lot fucked the best chance of democratic socialism we have had. The fucking gall of you to moan about it.


lol. This is totally deluded. I also don't like all this 'gammon' stuff, but that doesn't make any of what you say here even a tiny bit true. We have got what we were always likely to get from a 'yes' vote - a r/w Tory-led brexit that is going to shit on the British working class. Nothing else was ever on the table.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 5, 2020)

TopCat said:


> No solidarity for the Welsh or the Greeks.



No solidarity - or just comprehension, or empathy - with anyone outside of a very narrow, self-selecting group.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> lol. This is totally deluded. I also don't like all this 'gammon' stuff, but that doesn't make any of what you say here even a tiny bit true. We have got what we were always likely to get from a 'yes' vote - a r/w Tory-led brexit that is going to shit on the British working class. Nothing else was ever on the table.


Go and stand in the corner with the editor. Only a middle class dunce would take this stance.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Go and stand in the corner with the editor. Only a middle class dunce would take this stance.


you missed out 'liberal'


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The sovereignty of parliament, something the british working class fought for has been restored.
> Pity the remainers fought so hard to stymie the result we ended up with more Tory rule eh? You lot fucked the best chance of democratic socialism we have had. The fucking gall of you to moan about it.
> 
> Middle class entitled scum is what comes to mind when I hear shit about thick racist gammons.


Billy Simplistic rang up and asked for his paint-by-numbers argument back. How do you feel about the racists in this country crawling out of the woodwork and feeling so empowered these days? Word is, it's all down to Brexit.


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> lol. This is totally deluded. I also don't like all this 'gammon' stuff, but that doesn't make any of what you say here even a tiny bit true. We have got what we were always likely to get from a 'yes' vote - a r/w Tory-led brexit that is going to shit on the British working class. Nothing else was ever on the table.



Conversely, the people voted for the tories. That result, like Brexit, is the will of the people. 

Therefore, the tories are the genuine voice of the people, surely?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 5, 2020)

TopCat said:


> No Morris dancers then, No knees up Motherss Brown?


the whole thing is on youtube you can see for yourself. Its a UKIP rally with shit speeches and one prize cunt music turn


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Conversely, the people voted for the tories. That result, like Brexit, is the will of the people.
> 
> Therefore, the tories are the genuine voice of the people, surely?


There is no such thing as 'the will of the people'. 

In this case, the tories can potentially lay claim via the election to being 'the voice' (or, more conservatively, the least-hated option) of 13 million people out of around 50 million adult UK population.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Conversely, the people voted for the tories. That result, like Brexit, is the will of the people.
> 
> Therefore, the tories are the genuine voice of the people, surely?


It wasn't 'the will of the people' though, was it? It was a narrowly won, country-dividing, non binding vote that had an unknown amount of vote-rigging through well funded misinformation campaigns, probable Russian dabbling and outright lies.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> the whole thing is on youtube you can see for yourself. Its a UKIP rally with shit speeches and one prize cunt music turn


That's essentially what it was. A feast of flag waving UKIPpers wetting themselves to 'Rule Britannia' while a handful of whothefuckarethey buffoons blathered away on stage with that racist cunt Farage leading the pack. It was a total embarrassment.


----------



## andysays (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> Billy Simplistic rang up and asked for his paint-by-numbers argument back. How do you feel about the racists in this country crawling out of the woodwork and feeling so empowered these days? Word is, it's all down to Brexit.


Anyone pushing the idea that racists feeling empowered is all down to Brexit is in no position to criticise someone else for Billy Simplistic type arguments.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

andysays said:


> Anyone pushing the idea that racists feeling empowered is all down to Brexit is in no position to criticise someone else for Billy Simplistic type arguments.


It's not me 'pushing' the idea that racists are feeling empowered because of Brexit. It's those damn researches with their pesky facts and studies.



> *71% of people from ethnic minorities now report racial discrimination, compared with just over half (58%) before the EU vote.*
> 
> Our study has revealed a rise of racism in the UK’s most diverse areas. The study suggests racists are feeling increasingly confident in deploying abuse or discrimination. The proportion of people from an ethnic minority who said they had been targeted by a stranger rose from 64% in January 2016 to 76% in February 2019.
> 
> ...











						Racism rising since Brexit vote | Opinium
					

71% of people from ethnic minorities now report racial discrimination, compared with just over half (58%) before the EU vote. Our study has revealed a rise of racism in the UK’s most diverse areas. The study suggests racists are feeling increasingly confident in deploying abuse or...




					www.opinium.co.uk
				












						Racism rising since Brexit vote, nationwide study reveals
					

Survey shows 71% of people from ethnic minorities faced discrimination, up from 58%




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Brexit 'major influence' in racism and hate crime rise
					

Community officers are being appointed around Wales to help deal with "tensions" in some areas.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				












						I've been subjected to more racism since Brexit than rest of my career altogether, former children's laureate says
					

Malorie Blackman said she has heard more racist comments since Brexit than she did in the previous 30 because "people feel they can say whatever they want".




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				




And, of course:


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> It wasn't 'the will of the people' though, was it? It was a narrowly won, country-dividing, non binding vote that had an unknown amount of vote-rigging through well funded misinformation campaigns, probable Russian dabbling and outright lies.


Hasn't Russian interference conspiracy theory been pretty much debunker on u75? And the divisions and racism were always there, so that doesn't really have a bearing on it. At the end of the day, all the shit is down to the middle class and remoaners. Brexit is just what the country needed. Look at the happy, jubilant faces all around you.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> That's essentially what it was. A feast of flag waving UKIPpers wetting themselves to 'Rule Britannia' while a handful of whothefuckarethey buffoons blathered away on stage with that racist cunt Farage leading the pack. It was a total embarrassment.


it was hosted by Leave Means Leave - if theres a difference between that and Farage's UKIP its a technical one


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2020)

andysays said:


> Anyone pushing the idea that racists feeling empowered is all down to Brexit is in no position to criticise someone else for Billy Simplistic type arguments.


Are you seriously suggesting that brexit hasn't empowered racists? 'All down' is a silly straw man argument. It doesn't have to be 'all down' at all, just a major factor in the rise of racist abuse over the last four years.

You and others who resist this idea need to have a big think. You need to own the idea that the brexit process has made life for a great many BAME people and immigrants of all colours, particularly those from Eastern Europe, harder. If you want to advocate brexit, you have to do so with this fact in mind - somehow, and I don't know how you do this (not my problem), you need to justify the pain inflicted as serving a greater good. Anything else is intellectually dishonest.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that brexit hasn't empowered racists?



It _would_ be hilarious to suggest such a thing, but conversations with BAME friends of mine in the last few days have made it a good deal less funny.


----------



## chilango (Feb 5, 2020)

I don't think its particularly controversial to claim that Brexit has allowed some racists to feel empowered, with the likely consequence being a rise in reported racism.

But rather than arguing that this is not the case I would argue instead that this direction of travel was started long before the Brexit result. The campaigns themselves both inflamed the situation - either result would likely have led to a rise in reported racism be it the empowered racists we are encountering now or the hypothetical alternative of enraged and disenfranchised racists venting their frustrations.

To put it bluntly. I don't believe that a Remain vote would have stopped rising racism.

The genie was long out of the bottle.

Anyone paying attention could see this coming. Indeed for as long as I've been on here (and for a decade before at least) there has been discussion of the conditions that have been created for the both the rise in racism and the rise of the national populist forces seeking to benefit from it.

This direction of travel is common to most of Europe and to the countries like the USA so to create a fetish out of the Brexit vote (in either direction) is missing the point somewhat.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 5, 2020)

Good point, chilango 

Brexit has mainly been responsible for making some kinds of behaviour appear more socially acceptable to some people, but it didn't create the situation as such.  I don't think LBJ was arguing that it was, but that the erosion of the cultural lid that was in place over certain excesses of racist behaviour has real world consequences which should be taken into account.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 5, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The sovereignty of parliament, something the british working class fought for has been restored.
> Pity the remainers fought so hard to stymie the result we ended up with more Tory rule eh? You lot fucked the best chance of democratic socialism we have had. The fucking gall of you to moan about it.
> 
> Middle class entitled scum is what comes to mind when I hear shit about thick racist gammons.



WTF? Are you sure you meant to respond to me? I wasn't saying anything that's even slightly related to what you've just accused me of.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> Billy Simplistic rang up and asked for his paint-by-numbers argument back. How do you feel about the racists in this country crawling out of the woodwork and feeling so empowered these days? Word is, it's all down to Brexit.


keep it simplistic  it's not all down to brexit, it's like the previous 10 years never happened.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> It wasn't 'the will of the people' though, was it? It was a narrowly won, country-dividing, non binding vote that had an unknown amount of vote-rigging through well funded misinformation campaigns, probable Russian dabbling and outright lies.


er that's not vote rigging, which refers explicitly to your actual fraud at the ballot box like stuffing the boxes or voter suppression. you're talking about a mendacious campaign with serious questions over funding. it's different.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 5, 2020)

chilango said:


> were they?



Even if they were (not sure about that, had working class support but also had lots of musty types) there is quite a big difference between a membership based political organisation with a formal policy of forcible expatriation of non-white people and people who voted the way I don't like in a yes/no referendum


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2020)

8ball said:


> Good point, chilango
> 
> Brexit has mainly been responsible for making some kinds of behaviour appear more socially acceptable to some people, but it didn't create the situation as such.  I don't think LBJ was arguing that it was, but that the erosion of the cultural lid that was in place over certain excesses of racist behaviour has real world consequences which should be taken into account.


I'd say two things to that really. One, as was pointed out to me recently by a black person who grew up here in the 60s, if we think racism is bad now, it ain't nothing compared to the 60s and 70s, and things are less bad in many - most - ways than back then, even with brexit. But racism and racists never went away, and racism and anti-immigrant feeling has been on the rise in certain quarters in recent years as immigrants have increasingly been scapegoated for social ills, particularly since the accession of Eastern European countries to the EU. So something that was already there under the surface has felt emboldened to come back to the surface, and that thing was already being encouraged in various ways before the vote, before the referendum campaigns had started, before the referendum date was announced. 

None of that changes the fact that the brexit process is directly responsible for making racism worse in the UK. I really don't think it is possible to argue otherwise.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 5, 2020)

Yeah I distinctly remember pre 2016 immigration was barely talked about. Has nothing to do with increased competition for services and resources due to falling social spending and insecure employment or anything.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 5, 2020)

chilango said:


> I don't think its particularly controversial to claim that Brexit has allowed some racists to feel empowered, with the likely consequence being a rise in reported racism.
> 
> But rather than arguing that this is not the case I would argue instead that this direction of travel was started long before the Brexit result. The campaigns themselves both inflamed the situation - either result would likely have led to a rise in reported racism be it the empowered racists we are encountering now or the hypothetical alternative of enraged and disenfranchised racists venting their frustrations.
> 
> ...


Well made point. The other issue is how do we make sense of the fact that surveys show the UK as being more and more tolerant of diversity (and one of the highest levels in Europe)whist at the same time there is an increase in hate crime?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'd say two things to that really. One, as was pointed out to me recently by a black person who grew up here in the 60s, if we think racism is bad now, it ain't nothing compared to the 60s and 70s, and things are less bad in many - most - ways than back then, even with brexit. But racism and racists never went away, and racism and anti-immigrant feeling has been on the rise in certain quarters in recent years as immigrants have increasingly been scapegoated for social ills, particularly since the accession of Eastern European countries to the EU. So something that was already there under the surface has felt emboldened to come back to the surface, and that thing was already being encouraged in various ways before the vote, before the referendum campaigns had started, before the referendum date was announced.
> 
> None of that changes the fact that the brexit process is directly responsible for making racism worse in the UK. I really don't think it is possible to argue otherwise.


er the brexit process did not have to make racism worse and it's facile to say it did. you ignore the hostile environment promoted by tory governments for many years, but what's made it worse since the referendum has been the red lines theresa may determined without any input from parliament let alone her own party. the way that the tory government has changed the focus of the hostile environment to eu27 nationals. the decision to move away from the eu in such a way was a political calculation which had nothing to do with any facet of the article 50 process and it's er mendacious to say it did.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah I distinctly remember pre 2016 immigration was barely talked about. Has nothing to do with increased competition for services and resources due to falling social spending and insecure employment or anything.


Who the fuck is that a response to? Maybe try actually reading people's posts before coming up with moronic sneers like that, eh?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 5, 2020)

Remember when people used to look for the material cause of social developments, remember when that happened [stewart lee voice]


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Who the fuck is that a response to? Maybe try actually reading people's posts before coming up with moronic sneers like that, eh?



Was in response to your post and your claim brexit directly responsible for rise in racism, despite stuff like the rise in racism predating referendum, counties like italy, greece, basically europe as a whole experiencing same with key difference that they haven't voted to leave EU, stuff like that.

Chilango is right to point to it exascerbating something which already existed but directly responsible, do me a favour. Directly responsible was the crash and the political and economic response of govt and capital to that


----------



## scifisam (Feb 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> None of that changes the fact that the brexit process is directly responsible for making racism worse in the UK. I really don't think it is possible to argue otherwise.



It is if you pretend that what you're really saying is that the rise in racism is solely down to Brexit, like a few people in this thread. 

I don't get it, TBH. You can be in favour of Brexit and still acknowledge that it has problems, and this is one of them, so we need to to do our best to combat that, which starts with admitting it's an issue at all. Some other Brexit supporters in this thread do just that and I respect them a hell of a lot more than the others.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> keep it simplistic  it's not all down to brexit, it's like the previous 10 years never happened.


Perhaps you overlooked - or are choosing to ignore - all the recent research showing an almighty spike in racism linked to Brexit. There's plenty of links for you to read, right above


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Was in response to your post and your claim brexit directly responsible for rise in racism, despite stuff like the rise in racism predating referendum, counties like italy, greece, basically europe as a whole experiencing same with key difference that they haven't voted to leave EU, stuff like that.
> 
> Chilango is right to point to it exascerbating something which already existed but directly responsible, do me a favour. Directly responsible was the crash and the political and economic response of govt and capital to that


it's wicked to mock the afflicted, and lbj's certainly be suffering from a bad dose of liberalism for many, many years


----------



## scifisam (Feb 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Was in response to your post and your claim brexit directly responsible for rise in racism, despite stuff like the rise in racism predating referendum, counties like italy, greece, basically europe as a whole experiencing same with key difference that they haven't voted to leave EU, stuff like that.
> 
> Chilango is right to point to it exascerbating something which already existed but directly responsible, do me a favour. Directly responsible was the crash and the political and economic response of govt and capital to that



Racism was rising before Brexit. It's risen more since Brexit, partly due to Brexit. Those are not incompatible positions. It's exactly the same as saying that Brexit has exacerbated racism, and I don't think you really believe that LBJ was claiming anything else.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

scifisam said:


> It is if you pretend that what you're really saying is that the rise in racism is solely down to Brexit, like a few people in this thread.
> 
> I don't get it, TBH. You can be in favour of Brexit and still acknowledge that it has problems, and this is one of them, so we need to to do our best to combat that, which starts with admitting it's an issue at all. Some other Brexit supporters in this thread do just that and I respect them a hell of a lot more than the others.


I don't think it's solely down to Brexit at all, but do I think that Brexit has emboldened some people to express racist views more openly? 100%.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> I don't think it's solely down to Brexit at all, but do I think that Brexit has emboldened some people to express racist views more openly? 100%.


And it's only possible to deny that fact from a position of total ignorance, tbh. People talk about 'remain bubbles' on here a fair bit, but if such things exist then so do 'leave bubbles', in which people live isolated from the nastiest aspects of brexit such as the rise in open racism and xenophobia because they're not confronted by it daily. Ironically, it is largely in the places in which there was a majority 'remain' vote that this rise is most painfully obvious.


----------



## bimble (Feb 5, 2020)

What are british people even like - A full quarter of the brits surveyed in this (small poll yes) said they were to greater or lesser extent "bothered" when they hear people speaking any other language, rising to 41% of the people who had voted leave .








						Daily Question  | 03/02/2020  |  YouGov
					

When in the UK, are you bothered when you hear those from a non-English speaking country talking to each other in their own language, or not?




					yougov.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> Perhaps you overlooked - or are choosing to ignore - all the recent research showing an almighty spike in racism linked to Brexit. There's plenty of links for you to read, right above


you said it's all down to brexit, all the people coming out of the woodwork, ignoring the history of the previous decade or more of vastly increased votes for the bnp, for ukip. ignoring the hostile environment. ignoring the focus on immigration under cameron. yes, there's been a spike. from 58% of bame people reporting racism to 71%. but i wonder that the % was over the decade before that. 

for someone who's intelligent you do show a remarkable resistance to seeing the post-brexit rise in reports of racist activity as coming out of nowhere without seeing the pre-referendum trend.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

It's happening on the terraces too 



> *In our divided Brexit Britain, football racism is on the rise yet again*
> 
> *Why is this happening?*
> 
> ...











						Opinion: In our divided Brexit Britain, football racism is on the rise yet again
					

There has been a string of racist incidents over the last few months. There is more the beautiful game can do to challenge hate speech




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> you said it's all down to brexit


Nope, never said that and it seems very strange that you've chosen to ignore my post of about five minutes ago where I made my position very clear:


editor said:


> I don't think it's solely down to Brexit at all, but do I think that Brexit has emboldened some people to express racist views more openly? 100%.


Please don't make up stuff, thanks.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 5, 2020)

chilango said:


> so to create a fetish out of the Brexit vote (in either direction) is missing the point somewhat.


Brexit is a long process, UKIP has been campaigning increasingly effectively as they go since the 90s, the last ten years the rabid end of the tabloids have been on steroids stoking anti immigrant sentiment whilst campaigning for brexit conflating the two hand in glove, and the leader of the movement was one "too many people speaking forrin in public" Nigel Farage. The Tories have become UKIP in response to keeping up with public demand. Its not fetishising Brexit, its recognising it as a key part of a wider political process. It is possible to fetishise it and lose sight of the woods for the trees - but Brexit is trees alright.

This is all history now anyway. Now its just about resisting destructive trade deals, deportations, and more broadly a Tory government polling 50%.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> Nope, never said that and it seems very strange that you've manage to ignore my post of about five minutes ago where I made my position very clear:
> 
> Please don't make up stuff, thanks.





editor said:


> Billy Simplistic rang up and asked for his paint-by-numbers argument back. How do you feel about the racists in this country crawling out of the woodwork and feeling so empowered these days?* Word is, it's all down to Brexit.*


have i made this up?

perhaps you might like to apologise for accusing me of making things up


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> you seem to be forgetting this


Yes,* the racists* in the country have felt emboldened and empowered because of Brexit. Do you dispute that?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> Yes,* the racists* in the country have felt emboldened and empowered because of Brexit. Do you dispute that?


it's going from bad to worse.

yes, they have felt empowered because of the way brexit has been dealt with. BUT - and it's a very significant but - they are not 'crawling out of the woodwork and feeling so empowered' solely because of brexit despite what you say (although being as you've contradicted yourself it's so hard to know exactly what you mean to say). responses to 9/11, to 7/7, to the hostile environment, to the 'we'll get immigration down below 100,000', the rise of the bnp, the rise of ukip, the english defence league, austerity pitting people against each other - all things which predate moves towards calling a referendum - helped bring racism back from where it was on 10/9/00. the blair and brown governments have to take some responsibility for the ways in which they stoked islamophobia. so for 15 years before the referendum there were factors increasing if not the respectability of racism then certainly its expression in public.

a decade and a half of empowerment, uneven but certainly there all the time.


----------



## LDC (Feb 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> The other issue is how do we make sense of the fact that surveys show the UK as being more and more tolerant of diversity (and one of the highest levels in Europe)whist at the same time there is an increase in hate crime?



<... uninformed anecdote/wild stab in the dark at answering that The39thStep ...>

The area where here I live (northern UK city) is really diverse; ethnically, religiously, country of birth, parental origin, etc etc.

I suspect a massive percentage of people when questioned would say they were tolerant, not racist, etc. But on a day-to-day level when 'competing' groups and individuals are squeezed into a poor area with shit resources, sub-standard housing, and crap services some nasty behaviour and attitudes come out, many of which could easily be put down as hate crime as they're often aimed against people from the perceived 'other'. So I'd be interested to see if many of those hate crimes happen on some kind of more 'spontaneous level' rather than as a 'pre-planned' thing.


----------



## chilango (Feb 5, 2020)

If Brexit is such a key cause of a rise in racism, nativism etc. how do we explain similar movements in other countries?

No.

Brexit is a consequence of these conditions (and I don't mean racism, but the conditions within which racism is growing) not a cause of these conditions.

It's not Brexit ---> more racism

Nor is it more racism ---> Brexit

It's more like:
.........................Brexit
conditions --->
.........................More racism

(hopefully that formatting doesn't get too messed up!)


----------



## andysays (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> It's not me 'pushing' the idea that racists are feeling empowered because of Brexit. It's those damn researches with their pesky facts and studies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That survey says that 58% of ethnic minorities felt discriminated against before the referendum, so presumably racists were empowered enough beforehand to cause those feelings.

And you're the one who introduced the bollocks of "all down to" into the discussion, in the post I was responding to. 

I accept that some aspects of the Brexit debate have further empowered some racists to more and worse acts of racism than previously,  but that's quite a different thing to what you and others seem to be claiming.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2020)

chilango said:


> If Brexit is such a key cause of a rise in racism, nativism etc. how do we explain similar movements in other countries?
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


Problem with that is illustrated by the data It Will Never Work posted up, either here or on another thread, which showed a marked rise in reported hate crime from the moment the brexit referendum campaigns started. There is a very distinct 'before' and 'after' pattern to the levels. 

So the conditions that led to the leave vote certainly included 'more racism', from years earlier, a concerted anti-immigrant campaign on various fronts - the Express had been at it relentlessly for 20 years. But the campaign and the result of the vote also had a direct effect. They unleashed and empowered various extremely nasty political forces, and led to the situation where Boris Johnson won an election talking just like Nigel Farage, openly referencing immigrants and the way they are taking over.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> Yes,* the racists* in the country have felt emboldened and empowered because of Brexit. Do you dispute that?


Because of the nature of the Brexit *campaign* dominated by the right and in the absence of a left leave campaign .


----------



## chilango (Feb 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Problem with that is illustrated by the data It Will Never Work posted up, either here or on another thread, which showed a marked rise in reported hate crime from the moment the brexit referendum campaigns started. There is a very distinct 'before' and 'after' pattern to the levels.
> 
> So the conditions that led to the leave vote certainly included 'more racism', from years earlier, a concerted anti-immigrant campaign on various fronts - the Express had been at it relentlessly for 20 years. But the campaign and the result of the vote also had a direct effect. They unleashed and empowered various extremely nasty political forces, and led to the situation where Boris Johnson won an election talking just like Nigel Farage, openly referencing immigrants and the way they are taking over.



I'd certainly agree that large elements of both the Brexit campaign and the Brexit vote both came from and contributed to rising racism. However I still think a tendency to see the Leave vote as *the cause* of this rise in racism is really dangerous. There is a relationship, but its not a causal one.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

andysays said:


> That survey says that 58% of ethnic minorities felt discriminated against before the referendum, so presumably racists were empowered enough beforehand to cause those feelings.


And now it's soared to 71%, which is a huge increase.


> The fate of Daniel Ezzedine is evidence that Britain is becoming a more racist country since the Brexit referendum. Pro-Brexit politicians like Michael Gove deny this, but a poll by Opinium found that overt ethnic abuse and discrimination reported by ethnic minorities has risen from 64 per cent at the beginning of 2016 to 76 per cent today.





> But this understates the change for the worse that we are seeing. The Brexit vote promoted English national identity and questions about who is and who is not English – increasingly distinguished from being British – to the top of the political agenda, and this is not going away.











						Opinion: Because of Brexit, ethnic minorities are victims of violence more than ever
					

The Brexit vote promoted English national identity and questions about who is and who is not English – increasingly distinguished from being British – to the top of the political agenda, and this is not going away




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Feb 5, 2020)

chilango said:


> If Brexit is such a key cause of a rise in racism, nativism etc. how do we explain similar movements in other countries?
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


Fine....agreed with that.... as you say its conditions lead to Brexit in tandem with More Racism.
Crucially Brexit gives those rising sentiments not just a victory but a political project to rally around, project power through, and an ideology to foster.
And here we are. Lets move on.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Fine....agreed with that.... as you say its conditions lead to Brexit in tandem with More Racism.
> Crucially Brexit gives those rising sentiments not just a victory but a political project to rally around, project power through, and an ideology to foster.
> And here we are. Lets move on.


Exactly. I'll say it again - brexit is manifestation of the rise in r/w populist anti-immigrant nationalism occurring around Europe and elsewhere in the world, not some kind of reaction to it. Surely that is all too clear now. Currently 'moving on' feels like little more than firefighting, trying to resist losing even more than we've already lost. But yes, there is no other option but to do that.


----------



## chilango (Feb 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> brexit is manifestation of the rise in r/w populist anti-immigrant nationalism occurring around Europe and elsewhere in the world



*parts, but by no means all,* of brexit is a *partial *manifestation of the rise in r/w populist anti-immigrant nationalism occurring around Europe and elsewhere in the world, *but it is also a manifestation of other (i.e. not racist or r/w) reactions to the same conditions that led to the rise in r/w populist anti-immigrant nationalism.*

There'll be no "moving on" whilst people still veer towards blaming racism on Brexit and Brexit on racism.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> lol. This is totally deluded. I also don't like all this 'gammon' stuff, but that doesn't make any of what you say here even a tiny bit true. We have got what we were always likely to get from a 'yes' vote - a r/w Tory-led brexit that is going to shit on the British working class. Nothing else was ever on the table.


Working backwards, I agree with the last sentence, that was the _exact _problem. There was never a lexit campaign (of any size at least) leading into the Brexit vote and Corbyn's attempt at putting a 'workers + environment brexit' on the table since then was nominal and never likely to get traction - gawd I hate that word - largely because Labour had lost the ability to talk to/engage with/live near the people the message was intended for. That meant that your proceeding sentence became true in practice. Suppose I'm saying it would have been possible to create a workers Brexit position, but not from where the Labour Party - or the wider left - was at over the last decade. So, ultimately, Labour (and the liberal left's) bed shitting over Brexit is more an effect than the true cause. 

And here we are. I'm not that fussed that we have left the EU, the protection it provided for workers was minimal (along with its other/larger flaws). The bigger problem is that we've ended up with the hard right in power, unchallenged, as a result of this shit show.  Long winded way of saying Brexit isn't the problem, where decades of ne0-liberalism and identity politics have placed the 'left' and/or working class forces is the bigger issue.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 5, 2020)

Nothing being discussed in the past couple of pages is going to be resolved anytime soon. All vocal sides are defaulted to trope mode - there is no sensible resolution in view. 

To me

To you


----------



## ska invita (Feb 5, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Nothing being discussed in the past couple of pages is going to be resolved anytime soon.


It's resolved already. The word Brexit is banned. The shaping of what the Brexit deal is is in the hands of the Tories, with no opposition in parliament. What's there to resolve?
Fight the Tories and fight the causes of Tories is all there is left.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 5, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Nothing being discussed in the past couple of pages is going to be resolved anytime soon. All vocal sides are defaulted to trope mode - there is no sensible resolution in view.
> 
> To me
> 
> To you


Yep. Tomorrow belongs to me videos are being posted up and there are still crude attempts to portray the leave vote as driven almost exclusively by racism. And yes, there have been equally robust responses.  Aside from trying to influence post Brexit trade deals and the like (fairly hopeless task, tbh), the left(s) should be getting into 'beyond brexit' mode. All that energy that could have been spent fighting the cuts...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Yep. Tomorrow belongs to me videos are being posted up and there are still crude attempts to portray the leave vote as driven almost exclusively by racism. And yes, there have been equally robust responses.  Aside from trying to influence post Brexit trade deals and the like (fairly hopeless task, tbh), the left(s) should be getting into 'beyond brexit' mode. All that energy that could have been spent fighting the cunts...


c4u


----------



## RTWL (Feb 5, 2020)

Bannon is getting his world wide right wing revolution using companies such as Cambridge Analitica to manipulate elections. What kind of idiot would blame this on the left ?

....

No? anyway i did find this quite relevent to the current situation/thread



> Much depends on two factors: the results of the Brexit negotiations and the outcome of the 2020 US election. If Britain suffers economically as a result of withdrawal from the EU, the backlash against Johnson and his populist politics will be significant. And if Donald Trump loses in November — in the Electoral College as well as in the popular vote — it will send a strong message that his brand of illiberal, xenophobic populism lacks enduring appeal.



Foreign Policy in Focus

*2016-Global markets lose record $3tn since Brexit vote*

FT 2016


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 5, 2020)

RTWL said:


> Bannon is getting his world wide right wing revolution using companies such as Cambridge Analitica to manipulate elections. What kind of idiot would blame this on the left ?



Yeah, only no - Bannon gets his orders from a higher source:



Spoiler


----------



## RTWL (Feb 5, 2020)

LOL. I`m not saying it`s just him behind it all .... there`s Farage, Trump, and loads of other rightwing nutjobs from all over the world in the gang.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

My prediction that the Brexit party was going to be shit was spot on, by the way.

#mysticmeg #justsayin'


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 5, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> you said it's all down to brexit, all the people coming out of the woodwork, ignoring the history of the previous decade or more of vastly increased votes for the bnp, for ukip. ignoring the hostile environment. ignoring the focus on immigration under cameron. yes, there's been a spike. from 58% of bame people reporting racism to 71%. but i wonder that the % was over the decade before that.
> 
> for someone who's intelligent you do show a remarkable resistance to seeing the post-brexit rise in reports of racist activity as coming out of nowhere without seeing the pre-referendum trend.



it was  pre referendum tread but the referendum result acted as an almost validation to an percentage of the the population (all classes )  of their  more nasty held views
the increase after is at part effected by this


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 5, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Racism was rising before Brexit. It's risen more since Brexit, partly due to Brexit. Those are not incompatible positions. It's exactly the same as saying that Brexit has exacerbated racism, and I don't think you really believe that LBJ was claiming anything else.



Ok, so you think if there had been a narrow remain win then what, the material conditions that have created this situation pre and post ref would have changed? That resentment - trad key driver for far right - would have created less wind in sails than a perceived political gain?


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 5, 2020)

woops seeming as my internets been down for a day that post is quite out of sequence in the thread


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> woops seeming as my internets been down for a day that post is quite out of sequence in the thread


Shakes fist at sky


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 5, 2020)

The UK is not unique in this regard, the far right are on the march across the world, certainly 'developed' world anyway. There is one common reason for that, namely the slow collapse of the dominant political current of last few decades. This collapse is also a significant factor in why leave won. Too many people putting cart before horse and going arse over tit


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Ok, so you think if there had been a narrow remain win then what, the material conditions that have created this situation pre and post ref would have changed? That resentment - trad key driver for far right - would have created less wind in sails than a perceived political gain?



What resentment, though? How much resentment would there have been with a narrow remain win? Serious question. Not as if remain winning would have been a surprise - most people expected it. Resentment over conditions, sure, but resentment over brexit not happening (brexit as a word not yet even really existing, like 'remainer' and 'leaver')? Membership of the EU was low among most people's lists of political concerns pre-ref - all the polls said that. The ref wasn't called in response to popular demand for one. It was called in an attempt by Cameron to hold on to power.

Clearly we can't say what would have happened as an alternate history, but we can say that there was a rise in racist and anti-immigrant sentiment that dated from that point with the result as it happened. In the alternate history of a narrow remain win, we can guess that Cameron would have staggered on, Farage would have continued being noisy but now after a defeat, the tories would have remained hopelessly divided over Europe, no doubt fighting among themselves over it as strongly as ever. Beyond that, we can't say much, but those far right political forces that have been energised by the referendum result would not have received that boost in energy. Do you really think the uptick in hate crimes and overt racism would have happened in the same way with a narrow remain win? What would make you think that?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 5, 2020)

How much resentment is there over leave winning? A fuck load. That's how much.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The ref wasn't called in response to popular demand for one. It was called in an attempt by Cameron to hold on to power.



Not that many people gave a shit about leaving the EU until the referendum but they certainly did afterward, and I don't think that genie was going to go back in the bottle whatever happened - if the Ukippers, etc. had seen Brexit slip from their grasp with a vote as narrow as 52-48 or 51-49, I think we might have seen a rise in hate crimes as some of them took their frustrations out on immmigrants.


----------



## MrSki (Feb 5, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Hasn't Russian interference conspiracy theory been pretty much debunker on u75?


There is evidence of Russian interference but the Russia report into this is still awaiting publication after being blocked before the election & 31st January. Too late now really. Anything incriminating will have been redacted & it won't really change anything apart from the odd 'If only we had known...'


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Not that many people gave a shit about leaving the EU until the referendum but they certainly did afterward, and I don't think that genie was going to go back in the bottle whatever happened - if the Ukippers, etc. had seen Brexit slip from their grasp with a vote as narrow as 52-48 or 51-49, I think we might have seen a rise in hate crimes as some of them took their frustrations out on immmigrants.


I'm not so sure about that. Most UKIP voters were doddery old folks dreaming of the empire. Brexit was the clarion call for the far right to get involved.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> How much resentment is there over leave winning? A fuck load. That's how much.



None here, but I've a feeling I'll have a lot of future resentment about how the tories are going to use it.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Ok, so you think if there had been a narrow remain win then what, the material conditions that have created this situation pre and post ref would have changed? That resentment - trad key driver for far right - would have created less wind in sails than a perceived political gain?



Yes. The vote itself stoked up the fires, but they got a lot of fuel from the result. We wouldn't have ended up in a utopia all holding hands together, but there would have been a slight check on racism and xenophobia because there wouldn't have been a literal vote that said "we are not like you people." Even though that wasn't the reason most people on here voted Brexit, for some, it was.

(Though, TBH, you're phrasing things in a way that I don't use when talking to friends and I don't think anyone uses outside political forums.)

The only way it couldn't have affected the way people react to each other is if we lived in a vacuum. You do think that racism was on the rise, and there were many reasons for that. Brexit is another reason. You can't really discount Brexit without discounting everything else.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 5, 2020)

Imo it's mad to think a remain win would have made a material difference - cameron and osborne remain with political project intact, EU renewed to push on, more technocracy, no event to act as brake on that. But suppose we'll never know. What we do know is that this is happening across europe, across the world - no idea how people square that with laying brexit as a cause (not a symptom, or rather a related factor, which is very different and what I'm saying, to answer another point you make).

Anyway, there was a leave vote and at some point people have to deal with the political reality of that and move on


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Imo it's mad to think a remain win would have made a material difference - cameron and osborne remain with political project intact, EU renewed to push on, more technocracy, no event to act as brake on that. But suppose we'll never know. What we do know is that this is happening across europe, across the world - no idea how people square that with laying brexit as a cause (not a symptom, or rather a related factor, which is very different and what I'm saying, to answer another point you make).
> 
> Anyway, there was a leave vote and at some point people have to deal with the political reality of that and move on


There are case studies we can look at about how political victories to nationalist r/w causes affect immigrants and ethnic minorities, not just wrt the policies brought in by those victories, but wrt the actions of people against immigrants and ethnic minorities. The various town councils that have been won in France by the Front National are one such case study. With officialdom on their side, or at least the perception of it, hate crimes and just hateful actions that might fall below the level of crime increase. Those who would wish to act in that way are emboldened. That's not an abstract point, but a practical, factual one. Why would Brexit be any different?

It's a strange case that you're trying to make here, tbh: that political victory to a cause championed, among others, by anti-immigration nationalist groups doesn't make any difference to general racism or xenophobia, and more than that that the observed rise in general racism or xenophobia that has accompanied that victory would just have happened anyway.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Imo it's mad to think a remain win would have made a material difference - cameron and osborne remain with political project intact, EU renewed to push on, more technocracy, no event to act as brake on that. But suppose we'll never know. What we do know is that this is happening across europe, across the world - no idea how people square that with laying brexit as a cause (not a symptom, or rather a related factor, which is very different and what I'm saying, to answer another point you make).
> 
> Anyway, there was a leave vote and at some point people have to deal with the political reality of that and move on



So the vote made no difference at all when it comes to racism and xenophobia? Reality doesn't seem to support that. A narrow remain vote wouldn't have had the outcomes you expect - that sounds more like a large remain vote outcome.

But, like you say, we all have to live with the outcomes. I would kinda like people to work together, but people on every side are making that really hard. The leavers are worst for this because you already got what you wanted - I mean, seriously, a party to celebrate something that won by such a narrow vote? Remain lost, so why shouldn't people who voted remain be allowed to be sad about it? That's what usually happens after a loss. Leavers _won_ but some of them aren't happy to stop there.


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## The39thStep (Feb 5, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm not so sure about that. Most UKIP voters were doddery old folks dreaming of the empire. Brexit was the clarion call for the far right to get involved.


Who do you mean when you say far right?


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 5, 2020)

scifisam said:


> So the vote made no difference at all when it comes to racism and xenophobia? Reality doesn't seem to support that. A narrow remain vote wouldn't have had the outcomes you expect - that sounds more like a large remain vote outcome.
> 
> But, like you say, we all have to live with the outcomes. I would kinda like people to work together, but people on every side are making that really hard. The leavers are worst for this because you already got what you wanted - I mean, seriously, a party to celebrate something that won by such a narrow vote? Remain lost, so why shouldn't people who voted remain be allowed to be sad about it? That's what usually happens after a loss. Leavers _won_ but some of them aren't happy to stop there.



As you said earlier, nothing happens in a vacuum. Everything affects everything. No idea why you think a narrow remain win would have resulted in anything different to a reinforced cameron govt and EU project. Lisbon was contested for instance, result the same. Was never going to be a big win either way.

As for second para, people who voted leave as one lump people who voted remain as one lump. What's the point. Biggest driver for leave was people being fucked off, odd to think that would suddenly change tbh. As for feeling sad, well ok but it's 2020 now.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Biggest driver for leave was people being fucked off,


Not even sure if that's true tbh. The older people I know that voted leave - my parents and three or four others of retirement age - didn't do so because they were fucked off, not really. It was a driver, one of many, but the overwhelming rejection of it by under-25s (75% remain is a huge number, and young people voted remain in much bigger numbers everywhere - it's the one consistent demographic trend across the country) doesn't fit well with the idea of people being fucked off with, say, the neoliberal project, being a massive driver. Nearly two thirds labour voters voting remain doesn't fit well with that either, nor does 70 per cent BAME. Lots of people with reason one way or another to be fucked off voted remain, lots without much reason really, such as home-owning retired people, voted leave. The story just isn't that tidy.


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## Azrael (Feb 5, 2020)

scifisam said:


> [...] I would kinda like people to work together, but people on every side are making that really hard. The leavers are worst for this because you already got what you wanted - I mean, seriously, a party to celebrate something that won by such a narrow vote? Remain lost, so why shouldn't people who voted remain be allowed to be sad about it? That's what usually happens after a loss. Leavers _won_ but some of them aren't happy to stop there.


"Liberal leavers" (most of 'em aren't liberals, but the name's stuck, so I'll run with it) share the frustration. In the aftermath of the referendum, Remain was dead as a movement: it was revived in 2018 solely because May had given remainers scraps. It was for the Vote Leave leadership to be magnanimous in their narrow victory, but instead of consolidating around the EFTA, they pushed for the hardest Brexit possible and left millions of pro-E.U. voters with nothing to lose.

What do we have left? If anything, now it's morphed into rejoin, Remain's hardened, and will soon be pushing hard not just to reclaim Britain's old, opt-out riddled transactional membership (which is in any case almost certainly gone for good), but to make rUK a fully integrated member of the bloc. They'll only be emboldened if Scotland leads the way back. This is exactly what I feared before the vote, and barring Al Johnson having a Damascene conversion to Norway*, don't see any way to stop it.

* Hey, maybe things are looking up.


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2020)

Azrael said:


> This is exactly what I feared before the vote, and barring Al Johnson having a Damascene conversion to Norway*, don't see any way to stop it.


That's still entirely an option for any UK govt to pursue, of course. One of the irritating things about people continuing to talk about 'remoaners' is that it is gives an open goal to the 'brexit means brexit' wankers. There are still things I like, I want to continue, such as free movement across Europe to visit, work and study. Nothing that has happened so far rules that out, but the narrative from Johnson et all is that this is impossible, isn't real brexit blah blah blah. Let's not play into their hands here, eh?


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## Azrael (Feb 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's still entirely an option for any UK govt to pursue, of course. One of the irritating things about people continuing to talk about 'remoaners' is that it is gives an open goal to the 'brexit means brexit' wankers. There are still things I like, I want to continue, such as free movement across Europe to visit, work and study. Nothing that has happened so far rules that out, but the narrative from Johnson et all is that this is impossible, isn't real brexit blah blah blah. Let's not play into their hands here, eh?


Would be delighted with Norway (my preferred option all along), and Johnson is of course indifferent so long as he stays PM: but that's why his road to the EFTA looks so treacherous. Sure, back in the indicative votes, 60-odd Tory MPs voted for an unamended E.E.A. Brexit, but they're not Johnson's key Tory backers, and at this point, I doubt even he could pull off a Nixon-to-China pivot.

Likelier is Brussels screwing a FTA with equivalence baked in out the U.K., either before or after a bungled no-deal (sorry, "Australia-style deal"), then expanding its scope as the economic shockwaves hit Britain, until they've got the level of market access they want, and whatever's left of the U.K.'s thoroughly sick of the whole endeavour.


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## Gramsci (Feb 5, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Not that many people gave a shit about leaving the EU until the referendum but they certainly did afterward, and I don't think that genie was going to go back in the bottle whatever happened - if the Ukippers, etc. had seen Brexit slip from their grasp with a vote as narrow as 52-48 or 51-49, I think we might have seen a rise in hate crimes as some of them took their frustrations out on immmigrants.



I was chatting to friend at work today. He has complicated background. One side of his family is asian. Some of that side of family voted leave. When he asked them why it came down to them fearing that a Remain vote would have made things worse as you say above. 

So it was "pull up the drawbridge" and vote for more immigration controls.


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## scifisam (Feb 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> As you said earlier, nothing happens in a vacuum. Everything affects everything. No idea why you think a narrow remain win would have resulted in anything different to a reinforced cameron govt and EU project. Lisbon was contested for instance, result the same. Was never going to be a big win either way.
> 
> As for second para, people who voted leave as one lump people who voted remain as one lump. What's the point. Biggest driver for leave was people being fucked off, odd to think that would suddenly change tbh. As for feeling sad, well ok but it's 2020 now.



I think a narrow remain win would have meant racists and xenophobes would not have felt as  emboldened and empowered as they do now.

And, well, I didn't talk about leavers as one lump of people. I said that "some of them," some of the leavers, aren't happy to accept that they won and try to work towards anything. _Some._ No lumping there.

I was thinking specifically of the kind of people who'd actually go to a party to celebrate an issue that is so divisive, and the people who cheer them on. I know leave voters that I respect but I doubt any of them would have gone near Parliament Square on the 31st or posted in support of the people who did go there.


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## Humberto (Feb 6, 2020)

Did Brexit cause racism? Brexit did not cause it. The cause is a ruling class deliberately setting one person against the other for the purpose of keeping themselves on top whilst milking our labour.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 6, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I didn't talk about leavers as one lump of people. I said that "some of them," some of the leavers, aren't happy to accept that they won and try to work towards anything. _Some._ No lumping there.





scifisam said:


> The leavers are worst for this because you already got what you wanted



Anyway I think while being a remainer or leaver is a thing, an identity, there is sweet fa chance of common ground. One thing both have in common is that the people who subscribe to their vote as a political identity, whichever way, are very odd and politically dangerous


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## RTWL (Feb 6, 2020)

MrSki said:


> There is evidence of Russian interference but the Russia report into this is still awaiting publication after being blocked before the election & 31st January. Too late now really. Anything incriminating will have been redacted & it won't really change anything apart from the odd 'If only we had known...'



The interference with the Brexit vote and the nurturing of the Alt-right is covered here :








						Cambridge Analytica Whistleblower
					

This is getting interesting:  “[Bannon] got it immediately. He believes in the whole Andrew Breitbart doctrine that politics is downstream from culture, so to change politics you need to change culture. And fashion trends are a useful proxy for that. Trump is like a pair of Uggs, or Crocs...




					www.urban75.net
				




This format of psy-ops very effectivly swung the election,the US election , and many others all over the world.

Not traditional corruption of democracy but a new iteration of the ability to manufacture concent.


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## Serge Forward (Feb 6, 2020)

Talk of "leavers" and "remainers" is always going to be problematic. Some people who voted remain or leave are cunts, some are not. And that "Brexit Day Party" on telly was more like a far right rally than a genuine knees-up and is not really representative of most people who voted to leave.


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## Marty1 (Feb 6, 2020)

RTWL said:


> The interference with the Brexit vote and the nurturing of the Alt-right is covered here :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The sheeple really need to wake up to this


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## scifisam (Feb 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Anyway I think while being a remainer or leaver is a thing, an identity, there is sweet fa chance of common ground. One thing both have in common is that the people who subscribe to their vote as a political identity, whichever way, are very odd and politically dangerous



You cut out the rest of what I said:



> I would kinda like people to work together, but people on every side are making that really hard. The leavers are worst for this



- Ie, the leavers that are making it hard for people to work together. A specific subset of people. Otherwise I wouldn't have written "the." 

Also:



> Leavers _won_ but some of them aren't happy to stop there.



_Some_ of them. 

Of course, you could still pretend that I was lumping all people who voted leave together, despite that not being the sort of thing I've done on this thread. I'm bored of it now.


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## philosophical (Feb 6, 2020)

I have yet to hear a leave voter actually say 'I didn't know what I was voting for, still don't, but I want it anyway'.
It is not something I have heard said, but it is something that seems to be happening.
Leave voters seem to believe something is happening because Boris Johnson says it is, the detail does not concern them.


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## editor (Feb 6, 2020)

Seeing more and more of this kind of shit on social media. So fucking depressing.


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## editor (Feb 6, 2020)

Humberto said:


> Did Brexit cause racism?


Has anyone made such a daft claim? But I'm in no doubt that it's _contributed_ to the growing racism in this country.


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## Humberto (Feb 6, 2020)

editor said:


> Has anyone made such a daft claim? But I'm in no doubt that it's contributed to the growing racism in this country,



No, soz


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 6, 2020)

editor said:


> Has anyone made such a daft claim? But I'm in no doubt that it's _contributed_ to the growing racism in this country.


And, as the example you give above illustrates, and posters from the EU living here have testified also, the nature of that growing racism has been shaped by the brexit process - the 'Speak English, England for the English' brand of racism that is on the rise.


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## Mr Moose (Feb 6, 2020)

editor said:


> Seeing more and more of this kind of shit on social media. So fucking depressing.
> 
> View attachment 197711



And it’s simply not like people in the UK to be obsessed with the war.

But really? I’m a little bit sceptical. Did Ann make a complaint and how was it dealt with? Pretty hardcore calling a small child a ‘Nazi’. Maybe I’m in denial, but you’d expect action.


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 6, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> And it’s simply not like people in the UK to be obsessed with the war.
> 
> But really? I’m a little bit sceptical. Did Ann make a complaint and how was it dealt with? Pretty hardcore calling a small child a ‘Nazi’. Maybe I’m in denial, but you’d expect action.


There's a German poster on here who moved back to Germany because he saw a rise in exactly this kind of thing. Not going to tag him and drag him into this sewer of a discussion, but regardless of this particular situation, do you question the general thrust? As for expecting action, the quoted piece doesn't say what action was taken. Of course most people would be horrified by disgusting incidents like this. That's not really the point, is it? Doesn't take 'most people' to ruin someone's day.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 6, 2020)

I think this exceptionalism applied to UK is pretty dangerous tbh 









						Germany AfD: Thuringia PM quits amid fury over far right
					

The AfD helped elect liberal Thomas Kemmerich in Thuringia, prompting widespread outrage.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Mr Moose (Feb 6, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There's a German poster on here who moved back to Germany because he saw a rise in exactly this kind of thing. Not going to tag him and drag him into this sewer of a discussion, but regardless of this particular situation, do you question the general thrust? As for expecting action, the quoted piece doesn't say what action was taken. Of course most people would be horrified by disgusting incidents like this. That's not really the point, is it? Doesn't take 'most people' to ruin someone's day.



Clearly there has been anti European racism in the UK. That should alarm everyone and I wouldn’t blame anyone being upset about it for a minute.


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## scifisam (Feb 6, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> And it’s simply not like people in the UK to be obsessed with the war.
> 
> But really? I’m a little bit sceptical. Did Ann make a complaint and how was it dealt with? Pretty hardcore calling a small child a ‘Nazi’. Maybe I’m in denial, but you’d expect action.



You've clearly never been to a mother and toddler group. They can be fantastic places of support and fun, but they can also feature really horrible and slightly insane people.


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## Mr Moose (Feb 6, 2020)

scifisam said:


> You've clearly never been to a mother and toddler group. They can be fantastic places of support and fun, but they can also feature really horrible and slightly insane people.



 I’ve been to lots of play groups, drop ins, one o’clock clubs etc (back in the day). I think Dads may get off lightly at them.


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## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2020)

Here's the former President of the EU giving his insights into climate change


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## scifisam (Feb 6, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> I’ve been to lots of play groups, drop ins, one o’clock clubs etc (back in the day). I think Dads may get off lightly at them.



Yeah, they might do. Or you just got lucky  I've heard some horror stories, though usually it's other Mums being extremely judgmental rather than xenophobic. Course, someone could make a Nazi comment without entirely meaning to be horribly offensive, too.


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## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2020)

scifisam said:


> You've clearly never been to a mother and toddler group. They can be fantastic places of support and fun, but they can also feature really horrible and slightly insane people.


I did a placement at one when I was doing social work training . it was like a serpents nest


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 6, 2020)

I got called a saturday dad at a messy play which fucked me off cos I'm not, I took her to this group every week, and it was a wednesday


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## oryx (Feb 6, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> And it’s simply not like people in the UK to be obsessed with the war.
> 
> But really? I’m a little bit sceptical. Did Ann make a complaint and how was it dealt with? Pretty hardcore calling a small child a ‘Nazi’. Maybe I’m in denial, but you’d expect action.


Even if a complaint was made and those running the playgroup dealt with it appropriately, it was still said, which is the point.


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## Mr Moose (Feb 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I got called a saturday dad at a messy play which fucked me off cos I'm not, I took her to this group every week, and it was a wednesday



Lightweight m8. The mums sussed you


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## Mr Moose (Feb 6, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Yeah, they might do. Or you just got lucky  I've heard some horror stories, though usually it's other Mums being extremely judgmental rather than xenophobic. Course, someone could make a Nazi comment without entirely meaning to be horribly offensive, too.



Well I mentioned the war but...I think I got away with it.


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## ska invita (Feb 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I think this exceptionalism applied to UK is pretty dangerous tbh


I know we go around in circles on this for years now but didn't we just talk this through yesterday?

It's not about being exceptional, it's about the role Brexit has within the wider dynamic.


----------



## treelover (Feb 6, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Yep. Tomorrow belongs to me videos are being posted up and there are still crude attempts to portray the leave vote as driven almost exclusively by racism. And yes, there have been equally robust responses.  Aside from trying to influence post Brexit trade deals and the like (fairly hopeless task, tbh), the left(s) should be getting into 'beyond brexit' mode. All that energy that could have been spent fighting the cuts...



even on here , 'the cuts' as an issue disappeared years ago.


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## Mr Moose (Feb 6, 2020)

oryx said:


> Even if a complaint was made and those running the playgroup dealt with it appropriately, it was still said, which is the point.



And that’s bad, no doubt. A bit of context would be helpful that’s all.

But I visited the fb page and it was interesting to read people’s thoughts and their experiences, both sad and positive.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 6, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I know we go around in circles on this for years now but didn't we just talk this through yesterday?
> 
> It's not about being exceptional, it's about the role Brexit has within the wider dynamic.



Yeah we had that debate. My point was about this, dunno what you call it, meme of people fleeing UK for liberal europe. When racism & chauvinism on the rise and far right growing everywhere, arguably stronger with greater support in germany, france, italy, spain, netherlands, greece...


----------



## scifisam (Feb 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah we had that debate. My point was about this, dunno what you call it, meme of people fleeing UK for liberal europe. When racism & chauvinism on the rise and far right growing everywhere, arguably stronger with greater support in germany, france, italy, spain, netherlands, greece...



Isn't it about people going back to their home countries though? There's probably rather less xenophobia against you in the country you're from.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 6, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Isn't it about people going back to their home countries though? There's probably rather less xenophobia against you in the country you're from.



Probably. I don't mean the people choosing to move, why shouldn't they, not my business what people choose to do and everybody has to do what they want to do to be happy. It's that people are used for rhetoric which exceptionalises situation in UK when it isn't exceptional


----------



## editor (Feb 6, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Here's the former President of the EU giving his insights into climate change


Irrelevant dinosaur who should shut the fuck up.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah we had that debate. My point was about this, dunno what you call it, meme of people fleeing UK for liberal europe. When racism & chauvinism on the rise and far right growing everywhere, arguably stronger with greater support in germany, france, italy, spain, netherlands, greece...


Well yes, if anyone moves that's their business, all kinds of reasons to weigh up,  but the idea grass is deep greener elsewhere in the world doesn't hold up.


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## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I know we go around in circles on this for years now but didn't we just talk this through yesterday?
> 
> It's not about being exceptional, it's about the role Brexit has within the wider dynamic.


or how the wider dynamic played out on the Brexit campaign .


----------



## Raheem (Feb 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Probably. I don't mean the people choosing to move, why shouldn't they, not my business what people choose to do and everybody has to do what they want to do to be happy. It's that people are used for rhetoric which exceptionalises situation in UK when it isn't exceptional


Think Sam's point is that the UK isn't being exceptionalised in this case. The idea that people think Europeans are returning to Europe because it's 'liberal' is obviously false. Where else are they expected to return to?


----------



## RTWL (Feb 6, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> The sheeple really need to wake up to this



Well the government has so sombody should really tell them sheeple to wake the fuck up!



> Electoral law ‘not fit for purpose’



from the government report :


Read the report: Disinformation and ‘fake news’: Final Report
Read the full report: Disinformation and ‘fake news’: Final Report (PDF)
Read the Disinformation and 'fake news' Shorthand
Inquiry: Disinformation and ‘fake news’

here is the bit about the Russian Hackers :






						Disinformation and 'fake news': Final Report - Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee - House of Commons
					






					publications.parliament.uk
				





time to come clean Marty1


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## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Think Sam's point is that the UK isn't being exceptionalised in this case. The idea that people think Europeans are returning to Europe because it's 'liberal' is obviously false. Where else are they expected to return to?


Biggest driver for the number of Polish leaving is the boyuancy of the Polish economy and wage rises


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 6, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Think Sam's point is that the UK isn't being exceptionalised in this case. The idea that people think Europeans are returning to Europe because it's 'liberal' is obviously false. Where else are they expected to return to?



Well it was being exceptionalised in the post I responded to with a comment about it being exceptionalised. Which was some time before Sam's post. Are you reading the thread backwards?

I agree though tbf, with the where else are they expected bit


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## Ax^ (Feb 6, 2020)

RTWL said:


> time to come clean Marty1




you'll be lucky


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## Marty1 (Feb 6, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Biggest driver for the number of Polish leaving is the boyuancy of the Polish economy and wage rises



Yeah, quite a few polish drivers have returned to Poland for work now (well before Brexit).


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## Humberto (Feb 6, 2020)

I suppose everyone has to make their own mind up. We are _all _subject to domination at home and abroad unless you are a member of the ruling class. Brutal austerity preceded the referendum. Where was the Parliamentary Labour Party then? Those that rule in their own interest and pass the laws that govern us; well perhaps people saw that as a pressing issue: 'taking control for ourselves'. Many could in the end support neither option, or could do so only reluctantly. The fact that racists have been emboldened is shit, and is not an exercise in debate for those who receive it.  It is rooted to an extent in a societal slide into indecency and reactionary politics at the bidding of those who dissemble for their own profit. The referendum _had_ to be ratified. The people demanded it of their rulers and the Tories won a landslide off that one simple promise. So, do I think that is a good thing? No I don't. Nothing good came from Cameron and Osborne in Downing Street. They are what they are. We knew it was going to be shit, charted and discussed its shitness and it will continue to be shit for the foreseeable. 

In my own selfish concerns, losing the right to live and work anywhere in the EU is a big loss in freedom. And I should have more respect and sympathy for those who have built lives here, whose situations are now uncertain. The shower of shit at the wheel in Westminster now aren't going to do any of us any good. Populist figures like Farage too, aren't going to just disappear. And it won't suddenly all just become ok if Labour get their act together. The interests of the working class and the people that govern us (or on the ruling classes behalf) do not coincide. We, the working class, are losing and have been for a long time. And it seems to be sliding ever downwards. I don't think taking the piss out of Leave voters gets anyone very far. Time is in short supply it looks like to me. How to turn the tide?


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## Marty1 (Feb 6, 2020)

Humberto said:


> I suppose everyone has to make their own mind up. We are _all _subject to domination at home and abroad unless you are a member of the ruling class. Brutal austerity preceded the referendum. Where was the Parliamentary Labour Party then? Those that rule in their own interest and pass the laws that govern us; well perhaps people saw that as a pressing issue: 'taking control for ourselves'. Many could in the end support neither option, or could do so only reluctantly. The fact that racists have been emboldened is shit, and is not an exercise in debate for those who receive it.  It is rooted to an extent in a societal slide into indecency and reactionary politics at the bidding of those who dissemble for their own profit. The referendum _had_ to be ratified. The people demanded it of their rulers and the Tories won a landslide off that one simple promise. So, do I think that is a good thing? No I don't. Nothing good came from Cameron and Osborne in Downing Street. They are what they are. We knew it was going to be shit, charted and discussed its shitness and it will continue to be shit for the foreseeable.
> 
> In my own selfish concerns, losing the right to live and work anywhere in the EU is a big loss in freedom. And I should have more respect and sympathy for those who have built lives here, whose situations are now uncertain. The shower of shit at the wheel in Westminster now aren't going to do any of us any good. Populist figures like Farage too, aren't going to just disappear. And it won't suddenly all just become ok if Labour get their act together. The interests of the working class and the people that govern us (or on the ruling classes behalf) do not coincide. We, the working class, are losing and have been for a long time. And it seems to be sliding ever downwards. I don't think taking the piss out of Leave voters gets anyone very far. Time is in short supply it looks like to me. How to turn the tide?



An economic boom would be a good start - a rising tide lifts all boats etc.


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## Identitarian (Feb 6, 2020)

This event was quite a success, thousands turned out and celebrated a democratic British victory.


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## Serge Forward (Feb 6, 2020)

Fuck off.


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## keybored (Feb 6, 2020)

Identitarian said:


> This event was quite a success, thousands turned out and celebrated a democratic British victory.


Bye.


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## Raheem (Feb 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Well it was being exceptionalised in the post I responded to with a comment about it being exceptionalised.


No it wasn't. Something was posted about someone's kid being called a Nazi for being overheard speaking German. It might be fair comment that it's an anecdote and doesn't amount to much on its own. But there's also ample evidence that EU nationals in the UK really have experienced an increase in xenophobia since Brexit became a thing.

So, this woman is apparently deciding to go back to Germany, for the obvious reason that that's somewhere her daughter won't get picked on for being German. A sad state of affairs.

But nowhere at all is there any implication that Germany is some sort of xenophobia-free idyll, nor any invitation to compare the social liberalism of Germany to that of the UK. It's a straw-man that you've imagined into being all on your own.


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## editor (Feb 6, 2020)

Identitarian said:


> This event was quite a success, thousands turned out and celebrated a democratic British victory.


Merely hundreds actually. And it was piss poor unless you're the kind of troll that wets his pants at the sound of Farage babbling on.


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## philosophical (Feb 6, 2020)

Identitarian said:


> This event was quite a success, thousands turned out and celebrated a democratic British victory.


...that excluded Northern Ireland.


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## ska invita (Feb 7, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah we had that debate. My point was about this, dunno what you call it, meme of people fleeing UK for liberal europe. When racism & chauvinism on the rise and far right growing everywhere, arguably stronger with greater support in germany, france, italy, spain, netherlands, greece...


Actually now I think of it Portugal seems to have greener grass


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## two sheds (Feb 7, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Actually now I think of it Portugal seems to have greener grass



And decriminalized too


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## The39thStep (Feb 7, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Actually now I think of it Portugal seems to have greener grass


One right wing populist MP which is one more than the UK but no far right flash mobs. Racism is an issue in some areas with Africans/Brazilians but theres also a soft paternal nationalism/patriotism that also ameliates that if people speak Portuguese . Also thank heavens no Islamacist terror attacks although there were some Portuguese Islamacists involved with a cell in London that were active abroad. Sizeable left from CP to Left Block to very mixed and not without corruption Socialist Party. If there was a referendum they'd vote Remain (mainly because so many Portuguese work abroad and because of some funding ) but there would also be a Left leave and left remain and reform campaign.


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## The39thStep (Feb 7, 2020)




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## ska invita (Feb 7, 2020)

must have meant fisheries shirly


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## gosub (Feb 7, 2020)

Most fish have probably forgotten what their stance on Brexit actually was


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## ska invita (Feb 7, 2020)

gosub said:


> Most fish have probably forgotten what their stance on Brexit actually was


its a horrible speciest lie that fish have short memories told by fish murderers and fish trappers alike who place animals inclined to swim thousands of miles in small bowls and excuse it with the notion that they have 1 second memory spans.  Destroy the fish tanks!!


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## Raheem (Feb 8, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Destroy the fish tanks!!


I think we should hear from the fish first.


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## Marty1 (Feb 9, 2020)

editor said:


> Merely hundreds actually.



Based off photos from the event it looks like thousands attended.




Spoiler


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