# Foxes on the rampage in Stokey



## the button (Jun 6, 2010)

> Nine-month-old twin girls are in hospital after reports they were attacked by a fox at their home in east London.
> 
> Police said officers and paramedics were called to the house in Stoke Newington at around 2200 BST on Saturday.
> 
> ...



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/10251349.stm

If they had better stuff in the bins behind Fresh & Wild, none of this would have happened.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 6, 2010)

Foxes, my arse. Misidentified dogs


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## the button (Jun 6, 2010)




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## 5t3IIa (Jun 6, 2010)

And them. Foxes


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## the button (Jun 6, 2010)

Fox sake.


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## cesare (Jun 6, 2010)

_Fur_ fox sake


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## wtfftw (Jun 6, 2010)

(nothing to add but appreciation).


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## marty21 (Jun 6, 2010)

5t3IIa said:


> Foxes, my arse. Misidentified dogs



Cunning dogs disguised as cunning foxes


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## the button (Jun 6, 2010)

marty21 said:


> Cunning dogs disguised as cunning foxes



There's normally only one (silver) fox on the rampage in Stokey. Eh, Marty?


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## marty21 (Jun 6, 2010)

the button said:


> There's normally only one (silver) fox on the rampage in Stokey. Eh, Marty?



you are oppressing the greys !


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## cesare (Jun 6, 2010)

marty21 said:


> you are oppressing the greys !



Yeah!


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## the button (Jun 6, 2010)

Oh bollocks.


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## marty21 (Jun 6, 2010)

the button said:


> Oh bollocks.



yeah!!!


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## boohoo (Jun 6, 2010)

are we going to have an inner city fox hunt? Bicycles and staffies riding the streets to hunt out the foxes....


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## DuckQuack'sEcho (Jun 6, 2010)

Stoke Newington? Wear the fox hat?


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## marty21 (Jun 7, 2010)

according to radio 4, it was actually in Homerton, a different kind of fox to the Stoke Newington fox


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## selamlar (Jun 7, 2010)

Well at least the dingos are off the hook this time.


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## the button (Jun 7, 2010)

marty21 said:


> according to radio 4, it was actually in Homerton, a different kind of fox to the Stoke Newington fox



Typical BBC. Blame the foxes from round the corner on the estate .


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2010)

Homerton, not Stokey! 

Strange story....I wondered about the possibility of a dog doing this too... It is very worrying if it was a random fox.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 7, 2010)

When foxes get that mange thing they go mad though, don't they? Made with the _itching_.


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## Geri (Jun 7, 2010)

The parents say they chased it out. They must be pretty stupid if they mistook a dog for a fox.

Although my ex informed me that Spook had bought in "a black and white pigeon" once - turned out to be a magpie.  

That's Londoners for you.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2010)

Geri said:


> That's _*Londoners*_ for you.



Cheeky mare...


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## past caring (Jun 7, 2010)




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## _angel_ (Jun 7, 2010)

I have heard of this happening before. My sis pissed me off by managing to blame the parents, as if you would expect a fox to sneak into a house in the first place, let alone attack a sleeping baby.


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

It's unheard of for rural foxes to come into your house. Urban foxes are much more daring because townies tend to do daft stuff like feed them and think they're cute little fufffy wuffy animals. They're cute and fluffy wuffy but with fucking great big teeth and the instinct of a wild animal.


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## Kanda (Jun 7, 2010)

Welcome back


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## marty21 (Jun 7, 2010)

we get foxes in my hackney garden, they've never sneaked in, and I saw downstairs cat chase them off once  I am tempted to 'mark' my territory though, they keep digging under the fence


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## DotCommunist (Jun 7, 2010)

I bet they cornered it


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## _angel_ (Jun 7, 2010)

I reckon urban foxes coming into the house is fairly rare too though. Far more likely to get a stray dog around here.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2010)

Loads of callers to lbc are currently relating their fox in the house stories...


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> I reckon urban foxes coming into the house is fairly rare too though. Far more likely to get a stray dog around here.



I reckon actual attacks are rare too but you see them yards away from people, looking quite comfortable. That rarely happens here.


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

Stobart had a fox in her house didn't she? Daft fucker probably enticed it in with something.


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## Kanda (Jun 7, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> I reckon urban foxes coming into the house is fairly rare too though. Far more likely to get a stray dog around here.



Happens quite often round our way.


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## marty21 (Jun 7, 2010)

a fox did try and come in to our place once, I was smoking outside and he didn't see me, the front door was open, he came up to the steps to the front door, then saw me , and scarpered


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## Revolver (Jun 7, 2010)

Well if anyone fancies shagging a fox, now you know what to use as bait.


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## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

A fox used to come into our house as well to be fair. One night we were watching the Brannings on Eastenders and became aware of another mangy ginger watching over our shoulder

Tended to steal shoes too; always amusing looking for your other work show in the blinking undergrowth in the evening. Most of the time it used to spend a disproportionate amount of time licking its balls underneath our bedroom window, largely unbothered by my window banging shoe-away motions. The fucker made me get out of bed and chase it away with a broomstick on more than a couple of occasions.

TBH this was such a cocky fucker, unbothered by human contact, that this story doesn't really surprise me that much


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## Geri (Jun 7, 2010)

tarannau said:


> TBH this was such a cocky fucker, unbothered by human contact, that this story doesn't really surprise me that much



Bit of a leap between being unbothered by human contact and physically attacking babies.

I reckon it was their own dog and they are trying to cover it up.


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## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

Why? It's a bleeding predator after all?

There can't be many more easy eat packages than a rompersuited infant parcel for a fox. Hardly as though they're particularly mobile or able to defend themselves.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2010)

Geri said:


> Bit of a leap between being unbothered by human contact and physically attacking babies.
> 
> I reckon it was their own dog and they are trying to cover it up.



Have any of the reports mentioned they have/had a dog themselves?


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## Kanda (Jun 7, 2010)

I reckon if they had a dog, the foxes probably wouldn't have come in the house.


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

Geri said:


> Bit of a leap between being unbothered by human contact and physically attacking babies.



Not really. They're hard-wired to kill things to eat. Babies are small and can't run away. Foxes don't have a moral code


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## DotCommunist (Jun 7, 2010)

Geri said:


> Bit of a leap between being unbothered by human contact and physically attacking babies.
> 
> I reckon it was their own dog and they are trying to cover it up.



news report says 'little girls'. I can see it. Two 5 yo's run gleefully at the cute fox arms waving and back it to the corner. Fox goes ape.


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## Kanda (Jun 7, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> news report says 'little girls'. I can see it. Two 5 yo's run gleefully at the cute fox arms waving and back it to the corner. Fox goes ape.



They were asleep apparently... 



> Nine-month-old twin girls are seriously ill in hospital after apparently being mauled by a fox as they slept in their cots in east London.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2010)

Not common but happened before...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-436361-fox-attacks-sleeping-baby.do

http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/2003/fox_attack_london.html

Baby = easy prey


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## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

Look, rats will nibble at sleeping people, particularly infants. Anyone who's seen how vicious foxes can be will have few surprises that this is possible

Fuck knows where the allegation about dogs comes into it. Weird


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## DotCommunist (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm sticking to my theory that they provoked it and mere facts will not sway me.


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## the button (Jun 7, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm sticking to my theory that they provoked it and mere facts will not sway me.



That's the spirit. 

I'm reserving judgement until I find out whether the parents are middle class.


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Look, rats will nibble at sleeping people, particularly infants. Anyone who's seen how vicious foxes can be will have few surprises that this is possible
> 
> Fuck knows where the allegation about dogs comes into it. Weird



Because a lot of people have the image of foxes as a beautiful, integral part of British rurality. And they are. They just happen to be wild animals capable of killing lambs, chickens ducks, geese and babies as well.

People have this image of the fox as benign and harmless because it makes it easier for them to be anti-hunting. They don't want to admit that foxes are capable of attacking humans because then they'll have to reassess their opinion on how to deal with it.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 7, 2010)

well, it is easier to be anti hunting if you don't really give a shit about foxes but despise the aristocracy.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 7, 2010)

wow a whole thread about  foxes and  children  and not one mention of me

i must be losing my touch


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## Divisive Cotton (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Because a lot of people have the image of foxes as a beautiful, integral part of British rurality. And they are. They just happen to be wild animals capable of killing lambs, chickens ducks, geese and babies as well.



Killing chickens and ducks yes, but babies? How many babies have foxes killed? I bet their pet dog went on the rampage and they've blamed it on foxes.


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## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

Jesus christ. Some people are unbalanced.

These parents have their kids in hospital, having apparently witnessed a fox attack. And yet people - with some weird preconceptions and prejudices - have decided that they're covering up for their (unmentioned) pooches for some unknown reason.

Flapjack stuff given the lack of any evidence or indication, and a little unpleasant tbh. Some people need to get their dog obsessions under control. It'll be rabid muslim islamicists and polish builders blamed next


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## Thora (Jun 7, 2010)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Killing chickens and ducks yes, but babies? How many babies have foxes killed? I bet their pet dog went on the rampage and they've blamed it on foxes.



Babies have been attacked by foxes in houses before though, so it's not unheard of.

Surely if there was a pet dog in the house the police would be looking into that rather than saying it's not suspicious and having the fox trapped and killed?


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## Divisive Cotton (Jun 7, 2010)

Thora said:


> Babies have been attacked by foxes in houses before though, so it's not unheard of.
> 
> Surely if there was a pet dog in the house the police would be looking into that rather than saying it's not suspicious and having the fox trapped and killed?



The point is that the family would have removed the pet dog because they would have been trouble with the law and then blamed it on foxes

According to this fella he's never heard of foxes attacking a baby:



> "I have only heard of two cases in my 40 years of dealing with foxes, one of which turned out eventually to be a german shepherd, and the other a cat,"



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/07/fox-attack-twins


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't believe for ONE SECOND it was a fox and I will be proved right.


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## marty21 (Jun 7, 2010)

now I'm hearing it was in the Victoria Park area, E9, the meeja is all over the place on this one 

I think it was a hyena


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 7, 2010)




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## marty21 (Jun 7, 2010)

5t3IIa said:


>



that does look like Victoria Park


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## FoxyRed (Jun 7, 2010)

> Following the attack, pest controllers set fox traps in the back garden.
> 
> A fox was discovered in one of the devices on Friday night and was later humanely destroyed by a vet.
> 
> ...



WTF! That might not have been the fox and now one has died for no reason... that is wrong!


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Killing chickens and ducks yes, but babies? How many babies have foxes killed? I bet their pet dog went on the rampage and they've blamed it on foxes.



Well, you don't tend to find babies lying round fields very often do you?


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## DotCommunist (Jun 7, 2010)

usually mangers tbf


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

Divisive Cotton said:


> The point is that the family would have removed the pet dog because they would have been trouble with the law and then blamed it on foxes



But the neighbours would have known the family had a dog and would have told the press by now


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## _angel_ (Jun 7, 2010)

I can believe a fox may do this (there have been other reports too) and don't think they're all cuddly and cute, of course they are wild animals. But it's got to be fairly rare all the same.

And nothing to do with either pro or anti fox hunting,


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## claphamboy (Jun 7, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> And nothing to do with either pro or anti fox hunting,



I am sure some nutjobs will use it as an excuse for demanding the hunting ban is lifted.

Tally ho, down the High Street, what.


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> I can believe a fox may do this (there have been other reports too) and don't think they're all cuddly and cute, of course they are wild animals. But it's got to be fairly rare all the same.
> 
> And nothing to do with either pro or anti fox hunting,




Who has said it isn't rare?


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

It's like fuckwad tourists coming down here and feeding seagulls. You feed them and they'll start attacking you. They're no longer afraid of you and start seeing you as a source of food. Fucking idiot townies.


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## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

No disagreement there, but why are these knobs repeatedly waffling on about dogs?


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

tarannau said:


> No disagreement there, but why are these knobs repeatedly waffling on about dogs?



Fuck knows.


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## pinkmonkey (Jun 7, 2010)

I would have said, 'load of rubbish', but I was attacked by a fox on Tottenham Marsh, whilst cycling.  It chased me and bit my ankles.  Young fox, saw it again, another night but it didn't get me the second time - I made sure of that.  Was quite scary tbf.


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

Why would you have said 'load of rubbish'? This is what I'm finding interesting.


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## claphamboy (Jun 7, 2010)

I've only just noticed the tags.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 7, 2010)

The foxes I meet these days don't seem to be scared of me at all.


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## Strumpet (Jun 7, 2010)

5t3IIa said:


> I don't believe for ONE SECOND it was a fox and I will be proved right.



I'm with Stella.


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## FoxyRed (Jun 7, 2010)

claphamboy said:


> I've only just noticed the tags.



hahaha funny!


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## pinkmonkey (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Why would you have said 'load of rubbish'? This is what I'm finding interesting.



I dunno - you expect them to kill chickens, (one killed all of mine) but to attack people? They're usually quite shy.


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## FoxyRed (Jun 7, 2010)

What do you think it was then Stella? a dog? Probably their family dog and they said that because they didnt want it put down???


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## Wookey (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> It's unheard of for rural foxes to come into your house. Urban foxes are much more daring because townies tend to do daft stuff like feed them and think they're cute little fufffy wuffy animals. They're cute and fluffy wuffy but with fucking great big teeth and the instinct of a wild animal.



Thus spaketh the wisdom of the countryside, oo-ar, or-ar!

I've seen bumpkins try to cross a road in rush-hour traffic - we each have our own strengths and weaknesses.


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## marty21 (Jun 7, 2010)

FoxyRed said:


> What do you think it was then Stella? a dog? Probably their family dog and they said that because they didnt want it put down???



if my dog had attacked my kid, I'd want it put down tbf


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## vauxhallmum (Jun 7, 2010)

Weird cos I've just finished reading Blake Morrison's South Of The River which has 'fox steals baby from it's cot' as a running theme......


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## DotCommunist (Jun 7, 2010)

Has anyone heard from the gingerbread man recently ?


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## _angel_ (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Why would you have said 'load of rubbish'? This is what I'm finding interesting.



That they only attack townies is the only bit I'm having a hard time with. D'you think the parents encouraged a fox to come into their house??


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## Divisive Cotton (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Why would you have said 'load of rubbish'? This is what I'm finding interesting.



Because there is little or no record of them attacking people - other than pinkmonkey's attempted mugging


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## marty21 (Jun 7, 2010)

when our dog (Nicky) but me and my sister, when we were little uns - mum sent him to live on a farm

he's now the oldest dog in the world, must be at least 40, because mum says he is still on the farm


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## Kanda (Jun 7, 2010)

marty21 said:


> he's now the oldest dog in the world, must be at least 40, because mum says he is still on the farm



Compost.


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## Divisive Cotton (Jun 7, 2010)

Terry Nutkins has now voiced his opinion:



> They are carnivores and opportunist feeders, but they don't attack humans. I can't remember a single verified case of a fox attacking a human unprovoked (other than pinkmonkey on Urban75).



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/07/urban-fox-attack-london


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## marty21 (Jun 7, 2010)

Kanda said:


> Compost.



((((nicky))))


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## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

It should be noted that I last saw Terry Nutkins attempting to walk like a penguin and showing some poor sod how to eat raw fish in one gulp, albeit for that 'My Life as an Animal' series. 

I'm not entirely certain I have entire faith in a man who's lost a couple of fingers to an angry otter fwiw


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## tommers (Jun 7, 2010)

I got attacked by some foxes one night too, you know.

Well, when I say attacked... we were clearing up the waste food from a BBQ in Streatham and a load of them came and tried to grab the bin bags off us.

I find it hard to believe a fox would go into a house though.  We've got a family of them living in next door's garden.  Horrible mangy little bastards but they scarper if we go and throw things at them and they stay away from the house.

My dad's g/f, who is proper country, maintains that they're the only animal that kills for pleasure - they'll go in and kill every chicken in a coop, much more than they could eat.

Nasty fuckers.


Roald Dahl has a lot to answer for.


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## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

Where all these people get their views of timid foxes is beyond me. Both my house and that of my parents have had foxy unexpected visitors.

And, as I said earlier on the thread, the fox rarely looked in much hurry to get out once spotted. Indeed, in the infamous _ball licking under tree_ incidents the fox didn't respond to my angry shouts and banging on the window. Nor did it shift as I came out of the kitchen door and start to half heartedly throw tin cans (tuna I believe) at the mangy thing. Eventually, confronted by a man in boxer shorts brandishing a mop the fox lazily got to its feet and slunk away, but it was hardly terrified.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2010)

So none of the past stories are to be believed either?


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## claphamboy (Jun 7, 2010)

tommers said:


> I find it hard to believe a fox would go into a house though.



I remember reading a report a year or so ago about one young fox going into some pensioner’s house, they even had a photo of the cheeky bugger asleep on the bed.


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## marty21 (Jun 7, 2010)

there was a picture a few months ago of a fox on an escalator on the tube - ! I don't think it was the same fox, he would have had to change at Liverpool st, and get a bus to Victoria Park, they are cunning though


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## QueenOfGoths (Jun 7, 2010)

Maybe it was the family dog....dressed up as a fox!


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## tommers (Jun 7, 2010)

I thought the most exciting bit of my post was the nighttime raid by five rabid foxes on the leftover BBQ'd chicken, or maybe the proper country insight into their nature....  you live and learn.

I am in no way an expert on foxes gaining access to people's houses.  It was merely an aside.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2010)

Radio quoting the mother saying one of the twins 'isn't doing very well'..


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## Teaboy (Jun 7, 2010)

tommers said:


> My dad's g/f, who is proper country, maintains that they're the only animal that kills for pleasure - they'll go in and kill every chicken in a coop, much more than they could eat.
> 
> Nasty fuckers.



This is one of these complete bollocks statements that you here so often.  Only animal that kills for fun?  So never seen a domestic cat play with it's prey?  Never seen a domestic dog chase down a rabbit / phesant / deer / chicken and then not eat it.

Virtually all preditors kill for fun, they need to.  Of course a fox will kill everything chicken in sight when it gets the chance.  It's a scavenger by nature and never sure where the next meal is coming from.

All being said, I'm amazed a fox has attacked humans.  Must have been horrible for all concerned.


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## marty21 (Jun 7, 2010)

apparently Hackney Council are having an 'urgent' meeting about this - quite what they could have done to stop a fox (if it was a fox) getting in to someone's house is beyond me, well maybe they could employ door shutters to make sure every door in hackney is closed at night to stop foxes getting in


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## Thora (Jun 7, 2010)

Don't foxes tend to kill everything in sight, then drag them off to hide/bury for later?  Not exactly killing for fun, more making the most of every opportunity.

If a fox isn't afraid of humans and associates them with food, I don't think it's that much of a leap for one to go for a couple of small ones.


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## Kanda (Jun 7, 2010)

marty21 said:


> apparently Hackney Council are having an 'urgent' meeting about this - quite what they could have done to stop a fox (if it was a fox) getting in to someone's house is beyond me, well maybe they could employ door shutters to make sure every door in hackney is closed at night to stop foxes getting in



The family had complained to the council about the foxes previously apparently... in which case, they may well be in the shit if they done nothing.


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## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

Thora said:


> Don't foxes tend to kill everything in sight, then drag them off to hide/bury for later?  Not exactly killing for fun, more making the most of every opportunity.



Yes, it's called 'surplus killing' or 'caching'. Lots of predators do it. Foxes tend to cache their surplus kills by burying it; leopards, for example, will drag a carcass up a tree to prevent it being taken by scavengers.

Foxes digging up a garden can often be put down to the use of blood, fish and bone fertiliser. As well as remembering where prey has been cached, the fox also uses scent to locate a cached kill and thinks the smell of blood, fish and bone indicates the location of a cache.

edit: more info: http://mynarskiforest.purrsia.com/ev7rcach.htm

and a video of a fox caching:


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Indeed, in the infamous _ball licking under tree_ incidents ......



If you let the fox lick your balls you can't blame it for getting confused


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

Teaboy said:


> This is one of these complete bollocks statements that you here..(



Quite. Unfortunately a lot of rural folk think the same.


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> That they only attack townies is the only bit I'm having a hard time with.



Where the fuck did you get that from?


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## Maidmarian (Jun 7, 2010)

Thora said:


> Don't foxes tend to kill everything in sight, then drag them off to hide/bury for later?  Not exactly killing for fun, more making the most of every opportunity.
> 
> If a fox isn't afraid of humans and associates them with food, I don't think it's that much of a leap for one to go for a couple of small ones.



We have foxes in the area & I've caught the trying to sneak into the house before now. Never heard of one attacking anyone though.

The foxes round here are more afraid of cats than humans though.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 7, 2010)

I have now decided that it WAS a fox and am setting up an FB page to get them all banned from the UK.


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

5t3IIa said:


> I have now decided that it WAS a fox and am setting up an FB page to get them all banned from the UK.



Actually, it was probably a badger


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## Geri (Jun 7, 2010)

Good article here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/07/urban-fox-attack-london


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 7, 2010)

Official Facebook Group to ban any wild animal in the UK what is bigger than a vole


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

Geri said:


> Good article here:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/07/urban-fox-attack-london



What's he basing the fact that it wouldn't have deliberately attacked the babies on?


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## cesare (Jun 7, 2010)

Geri said:


> Good article here:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/07/urban-fox-attack-london




Terry's blatantly blagged our take on FFS


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## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

Documented and verified cases of foxes attacking humans may be very rare, but the bloke who runs the National Fox Welfare Society told me that he had come across a couple of foxes that had sustained head injuries in RTAs, and their behaviour was very strange, quite aggressive. So it's possible this was a fox, but one not showing typical fox behaviour.


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## Teaboy (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> What's he basing the fact that it wouldn't have deliberately attacked the babies on?



It appears to be based on the fact it was a Fox. **shrugs**


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> Documented and verified cases of foxes attacking humans may be very rare, but the bloke who runs the National Fox Welfare Society told me that he had come across a couple of foxes that had sustained head injuries in RTAs, and their behaviour was very strange, quite aggressive. So it's possible this was a fox, but one not showing typical fox behaviour.



I also read somewhere that the mange makes them go mental with the itching and they act all mental too.


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## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

5t3IIa said:


> I also read somewhere that the mange makes them go mental with the itching and they act all mental too.



I've not heard of that, but it's possible. I see a lot of mangy foxes round here and they don't seem excessively aggressive.


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## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> Documented and verified cases of foxes attacking humans may be very rare, but the bloke who runs the National Fox Welfare Society told me that he had come across a couple of foxes that had sustained head injuries in RTAs, and their behaviour was very strange, quite aggressive. So it's possible this was a fox, but one not showing typical fox behaviour.


But whilst it may not be 'typical' fox behaviour at _present_ and under normal circumstances it_ could_ be that their behaviour is changing along with their habitat and that fox attacks will become more common.


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## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> But whilst it may not be 'typical' fox behaviour at _present_ and under normal circumstances it_ could_ be that their behaviour is changing along with their habitat and that fox attacks will become more common.



Or not. I don't know. Stephen Harris's years of extensive research into urban foxes hasn't shown any indications of greater levels of aggression as far as I'm aware.

edit: here's what he says about attacks on humans: 



> Although there have been a number of scare stories in the press about wild foxes attacking young children, there has never been such an incident. There have been a handful of reports of foxes biting children while they slept, but all have been proved to be completely unfounded.



from this


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## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2010)

pinkmonkey said:


> I would have said, 'load of rubbish', but I was attacked by a fox on Tottenham Marsh, whilst cycling.  It chased me and bit my ankles.  Young fox, saw it again, another night but it didn't get me the second time - I made sure of that.  Was quite scary tbf.



Are you sure it was a fox though and not, say, a ginger pit bull?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2010)

Geri said:


> Good article here:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/07/urban-fox-attack-london



Have you changed your mind then? Or was it a dog...?


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> Or not. I don't know. Stephen Harris's years of extensive research into urban foxes hasn't shown any indications of greater levels of aggression as far as I'm aware.



Hmmm...I don't really know of any research so I'll concede that one. I just know that the increase of aggression in seagulls was pretty exponential. I just wonder if it may be the same in foxes. The more confident they get around humans and the more humans feed them, the more aggressive they may become.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Hmmm...I don't really know of any research so I'll concede that one. I just know that the increase of aggression in seagulls was pretty exponential. I just wonder if it may be the same in foxes. The more confident they get around humans and the more humans feed them, the more aggressive they may become.



No one can really predict how wildlife will adapt to an urban environment I suppose. But he wrote what I quoted in 2001, after about 30 years of studying urban foxes in Bristol. Has the situation changed since then? Who knows?


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> No one can really predict how wildlife will adapt to an urban environment I suppose. But he wrote what I quoted in 2001, after about 30 years of studying urban foxes in Bristol. Has the situation changed since then? Who knows?



I think it _has_ changed. Urban foxes aren't a new phenomena by any means but it seems the population is on the increase and maybe as more houses are built, and their natural environment is encroached on, their behaviour patterns may change. I still can't help but think that people feeding them is going to shove things out of balance even more. Thankfully a fox attack like this is still exceedingly rare and I hope it stays that way.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> I think it _has_ changed. Urban foxes aren't a new phenomena by any means but it seems the population is on the increase and maybe as more houses are built, and their natural environment is encroached on, their behaviour patterns may change. I still can't help but think that people feeding them is going to shove things out of balance even more. Thankfully a fox attack like this is still exceedingly rare and I hope it stays that way.



I don't know that the population has increased. 'Unearthing the Urban Fox' by Trevor Williams and Andrew Wilson states that:



> London has a peak population of 10,000 foxes. Territories across London are shoulder to shoulder. When a territory falls vacant it will quickly become apparent to other foxes.



Availability of territory is one of the factors that determines whether a vixen other than the 'alpha' vixen will breed. If territories are available, a number of vixens in a family group will breed, if not, generally only the matriarch will breed.

And Stephen Harris (quoting research by Graham Smith and David Wilkinson of the Central Science Laboratory) states that between 1986 and 1997 the population increased in some cities (e.g. Leicester, Nottingham, Swindon) while decreasing in others, notably Bath and Bristol. His research found that outbreaks of mange can severely reduce fox populations -  when mange first reached Bristol, the fox population decreased by 95%.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> I don't know that the population has increased. 'Unearthing the Urban Fox' by Trevor Williams and Andrew Wilson states that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How long ago was that?


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

Which bit?


----------



## Thora (Jun 7, 2010)

There has to be a first reported case of everything though doesn't there - this could just be the first time a fox has attacked a baby.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> Which bit?



Any of it? 

Isn't it possible that things are changing? It's fine to say how things have been but it's like saying 10 years before seagulls became vicious food grabbing cunts that it could never happen or that it wasn't their natural behaviour. It still isn't their 'natural' behaviour but it doesn't mean it isn't happening.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 7, 2010)

Seagulls have always been cunts, it isn't a new thing.


----------



## cesare (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Any of it?
> 
> Isn't it possible that things are changing? It's fine to say how things have been but it's like saying 10 years before seagulls became vicious food grabbing cunts that it could never happen or that it wasn't their natural behaviour. It still isn't their 'natural' behaviour but it doesn't mean it isn't happening.



I'm not sure that St Ives' seagulls are typical of seagull behaviour in the UK.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Any of it?
> 
> Isn't it possible that things are changing? It's fine to say how things have been but it's like saying 10 years before seagulls became vicious food grabbing cunts that it could never happen or that it wasn't their natural behaviour. It still isn't their 'natural' behaviour but it doesn't mean it isn't happening.



I've given the date of the CSL research. Harris states that mange reached Bristol in 1994/5 - it coincided with the CSL research period and indicated that fox populations can show dramatic and rapid declines.

Harris basically says that most towns were fairly fox-free until the 1940s as the type of housing built before then (back to back terraces with yards rather than gardens) was not conducive to a large fox population. But with encroaching urbanisation post WW2, when towns expanded into fox territories in rural areas (with a housing type - semi detached with gardens - more suitable for foxes), foxes started to adapt to urban living and then began to colonise towards city centres as increasing population/territory pressures pressured them into doing so. But once territories became occupied, the numbers began to level off and in some cases declined as sarcoptic mange became established and spread quickly within the close territories. 

As to more recent times, I don't know. But taking into account mange, mortality due to RTAs etc and the effect of lack of territory, it's ecologically feasible that populations would reach a ceiling and then increase no further - Trevor Williams and Andrew Wilson seem to think so.

It's possible that things are changing, but then again, it's also possible they're not.


----------



## Thora (Jun 7, 2010)

cesare said:


> I'm not sure that St Ives' seagulls are typical of seagull behaviour in the UK.



I wouldn't trust the seagulls round here either tbf


----------



## discokermit (Jun 7, 2010)

bastard foxes stole my bike.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> Seagulls have always been cunts, it isn't a new thing.


The number of attacks on humans by seagulls is a relatively new thing



cesare said:


> I'm not sure that St Ives' seagulls are typical of seagull behaviour in the UK.



They behave like that because they get fed. Seagulls are vicious wherever there is a habit of feeding them or where there is a lot of food residue around. It's not peculiar to St Ives. My point is that people need to be made to realise that feeding foxes is NOT a good idea.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

Thora said:


> There has to be a first reported case of everything though doesn't there - this could just be the first time a fox has attacked a baby.



True. As I said, anecdotal evidence has suggested that foxes with brain damage can behave erratically and aggressively. And of course it is entirely possible that the fox in this case found its way into the children's bedroom, was disturbed and, in its attempts to escape, 'unintentionally' (ok, I may be anthropomorphising here) harmed the children. I've nearly been bitten by a fox, they will show very aggressive behaviour when cornered - it's natural 'fight or flight' behaviour.


----------



## Thora (Jun 7, 2010)

Why _wouldn't_ a fox (or any big enough predatory animal) attack a baby though, given the opportunity?  Is there something special about humans in a fox's eyes


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

Thora said:


> Why _wouldn't_ a fox (or any big enough predatory animal) attack a baby though, given the opportunity?  Is there something special about humans in a fox's eyes



Well, exactly. People seem excessively eager to believe a dog could do it but not a fox


----------



## cesare (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> They behave like that because they get fed. Seagulls are vicious wherever there is a habit of feeding them or where there is a lot of food residue around. It's not peculiar to St Ives. My point is that people need to be made to realise that feeding foxes is NOT a good idea.



If your point is that encouraging foxes (or seagulls) by feeding them, is not a Good Thing; I completely agree.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

I think we should qualify that by saying _some_ people are eager to see a dog blamed for some unknown reason. The flaming unbalanced weirdos.

I don't know, but these parents of the victims strike me as the type to be able to work out what a bushy tailed fox looks like. Perhaps it was a ginger leopard?


----------



## Thora (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Well, exactly. People seem excessively eager to believe a dog could do it but not a fox



If a dog, who has been domesticated for generations and raised around humans all it's life, can attack a baby, why would a fox see one as any more than a warm, wriggly meaty thing?


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

Thora said:


> Why _wouldn't_ a fox (or any big enough predatory animal) attack a baby though, given the opportunity?  Is there something special about humans in a fox's eyes



Maybe you've answered the question there: it's perhaps a matter of size. Foxes are often smaller than people think - no more than about 6kg body weight and able to squeeze through a 12cm hole. A fox attacking a cat has been known (and vice versa) as they're similar size but a fox attacking a dog is very, very rare. Predators don't generally attack other predators bigger than themselves - hyenas don't attack lions. Foxes are smaller than humans and are consequently wary of them. Of course, a human baby is smaller than an adult but still smaller than the sort of prey a rural fox would attack (rabbits etc.), but it seems to be the case that foxes avoid attacking humans of any size.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 7, 2010)

apart from the really small one that bit me


----------



## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

Yes, but these were little 9 month old  bundles of flesh. Foxes are quite capable of taking bigger prey, especially when they're comparatively helpless soft pink things.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

Thora said:


> If a dog, who has been domesticated for generations and raised around humans all it's life, can attack a baby, why would a fox see one as any more than a warm, wriggly meaty thing?



Maybe because a fox's means of obtaining a meal is different to an undomesticated dog. Foxes are primarily scavengers and have a wide ranging diet including beetles, earthworms, carrion etc. They will hunt rabbits, wildfowl etc. but this sort of prey is smaller in size than they are. And of course foxes are solitary hunters unlike other canids. 

Dogs and foxes may both be Canidae, but they fall in distinct tribes (dogs = Canini, foxes = Vulpini) so while similar, they are not identical.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 7, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Foxes are quite capable of taking bigger prey, especially when they're comparatively helpless soft pinkmonkeys on bikes.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

pinkmonkey said:


> apart from the really small one that bit me



It's not unknown - the fox's reaction may have been 'fight or flight'. That was the case with the one that nearly bit me.


----------



## Melinda (Jun 7, 2010)

Foxes ran up to the third storey of a house to eat babies?! 

Altogether now: THE MOTHER DID IT!

[/Daily Mail comment section]


----------



## Thora (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> Maybe you've answered the question there: it's perhaps a matter of size. Foxes are often smaller than people think - no more than about 6kg body weight and able to squeeze through a 12cm hole. A fox attacking a cat has been known (and vice versa) as they're similar size but a fox attacking a dog is very, very rare. Predators don't generally attack other predators bigger than themselves - hyenas don't attack lions. Foxes are smaller than humans and are consequently wary of them. Of course, a human baby is smaller than an adult but still smaller than the sort of prey a rural fox would attack (rabbits etc.), but it seems to be the case that foxes avoid attacking humans of any size.



So maybe a particularly big/bold fox going for a baby about the same size as it.

There have been several people on both this thread and on other boards I'm on recounting stories of being attacked by foxes or finding bolshy foxes in their houses, so this doesn't sound outside the realms of possibility to me.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Yes, but these were little 9 month old  bundles of flesh. Foxes are quite capable of taking *bigger prey*, especially when they're comparatively helpless soft pink things.



Such as?


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

Thora said:


> So maybe a particularly big/bold fox going for a baby about the same size as it.
> 
> There have been several people on both this thread and on other boards I'm on recounting stories of being attacked by foxes or finding bolshy foxes in their houses, so this doesn't sound outside the realms of possibility to me.



No it's not impossible, but it would appear to be very rare. A fox cornered in a house is very likely to be 'bolshy' after all.


----------



## Thora (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> It's not unknown - the fox's reaction may have been 'fight or flight'. That was the case with the one that nearly bit me.



Babies are noisy and make unpredictable sudden movements - maybe the fox was having a good nose around and one started crying, and it panicked and went for them?


----------



## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

There are numerous reports of foxes taking food items way bigger than a small infant, not least joints of meat from kitchens and even a defrosting turkey. A 9 month old is no titanic step up.

I'm really not sure why it's so unbelievable to you.


----------



## Thora (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> No it's not impossible, but it would appear to be very rare. A fox cornered in a house is very likely to be 'bolshy' after all.



Can't be that rare if several people over a couple of message boards have experienced it.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

Thora said:


> Babies are noisy and make unpredictable sudden movements - maybe the fox was having a good nose around and one started crying, and it panicked and went for them?



Panicked, yes. 'Went for them'? I don't know. As I said, if the fox was disturbed it may well have unintentionally harmed the children while trying to escape.


----------



## girasol (Jun 7, 2010)

past caring said:


>



My first thought too, crack fox  

Person interviewed on radio suggested it might have been a 'teenage', inexperienced fox...


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

Thora said:


> Can't be that rare if several people over a couple of message boards have experienced it.



Or it could. People who have experienced an aggressive fox (for whatever reason) are more likely to relate their experience when it's a story in the news. And 'several' as opposed to how many who have never experienced it?


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

tarannau said:


> There are numerous reports of foxes taking food items way bigger than a small infant, not least joints of meat from kitchens and even a defrosting turkey. A 9 month old is no titanic step up.
> 
> I'm really not sure why it's so unbelievable to you.



That would be scavenging though.


----------



## Thora (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> Panicked, yes. 'Went for them'? I don't know. As I said, if the fox was disturbed it may well have unintentionally harmed the children while trying to escape.



Sounds like they sustained quite serious injuries though - it may well have intentionally harmed them too, even if in defence rather than for food.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

And the one that bit Pinkmonkey's foot? Was it an fan of footwear or attracted to bicycle spokes?

This is beginning to get slightly surreal. I'm not quite sure why it's so remarkable to believe that an often violent, murderous animal can go for a slightly different swaddled little ball of noisy and helpless flesh. There's not some gene or Robocopesque prime directive that prevents them from attacking humans.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Jun 7, 2010)

One evening a friend of mine spotted his cats being attacked by a fox.  He ran down a flight of stairs, across the garden, out onto the street, half way around the block he almost caught up with the fox.

I believe his aim was to stomp its skull.

Problem is that these urban foxes have lost all fear of humans.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

tarannau said:


> And the one that bit Pinkmonkey's foot? Was it an fan of footwear or attracted to bicycle spokes?
> 
> This is beginning to get slightly surreal. I'm not quite sure why it's so remarkable to believe that an often violent, murderous animal can go for a slightly different swaddled little ball of noisy and helpless flesh. There's not some gene or Robocopesque prime directive that prevents them from attacking humans.



That's all very anthropomorphic.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

cesare said:


> If your point is that encouraging foxes (or seagulls) by feeding them, is not a Good Thing; I completely agree.



Yes. People shouldn't feed them 
Any of them.

I take that further and think that people shouldn't actually feed tourists but I'm aware that's where I lose sympathy.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

Thora said:


> Sounds like they sustained quite serious injuries though - it may well have intentionally harmed them too, even if in defence rather than for food.



There's no way of telling whether the harm was intentional or not though. But it's entirely possible as a means of defence.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

tarannau said:


> This is beginning to get slightly surreal.



Innit


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

urb said:


> One evening a friend of mine spotted his cats being attacked by a fox.  He ran down a flight of stairs, across the garden, out onto the street, half way around the block he almost caught up with the fox.
> 
> I believe his aim was to stomp its skull.
> 
> Problem is that these urban foxes have lost all fear of humans.



It is also possible though that the cat was attacking the fox. It's far from unknown.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't think it really is. I'm not trying to associate human characteristics or conceal the animal's instincts - it's an opportunistic killer in many ways. This doesn't seem that atypical, seeing as it would have seemed unusual to talk about foxes often venturing indoors in urban environments even a few decades back.

What I still don't get it why you're so quick to discount the possibility given the eye witness statements. Are the folks involved in some sort of fox-slurring conspiracy?


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> I take that further and think that people shouldn't actually feed tourists but I'm aware that's where I lose sympathy.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Yes, but these were little 9 month old  bundles of flesh. Foxes are quite capable of taking bigger prey, especially when they're comparatively helpless soft pink things.



Foxes can and do take lambs which are probably about the same size as an average 9 month old baby.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

tarannau said:


> I don't think it really is. I'm not trying to associate human characteristics or conceal the animal's instincts - it's an opportunistic killer in many ways. This doesn't seem that atypical, seeing as it would have seemed unusual to talk about foxes often venturing indoors in urban environments even a few decades back.
> 
> What I still don't get it why you're so quick to discount the possibility given the eye witness statements. Are the folks involved in some sort of fox-slurring conspiracy?



'Violent and murderous' are the words you used. That's quite anthropomorphic. 

And I haven't discounted the possibility - just saying that there are other possibilities too. 

And bear in mind that when such events have been reported by the media before, there has often been some distortion of the facts.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Foxes can and do take lambs which are probably about the same size as an average 9 month old baby.



True, but take into account that when MAFF (as was) did research into this using post mortem techniques on the lamb carcasses they found that many of the lambs that were taken were already dead (or weak/dying) and the foxes were scavenging the carcasses. Only about 3% of the lambs autopsied were healthy and live when taken by the fox.


----------



## Melinda (Jun 7, 2010)

Nutter!



> Hate to say it, but even if 'bite marks' are proven to be that of a fox still, it still doesn't mean the fox did it. Is it not possible for a human to take a dead foxes jaw/teeth attach them to make a pliers type of device & then sink away into flesh. A very sceptic thought I know, but possible nonetheless.'
> 
> - Jessica, Surrey UK
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...riously-injured-fox-attack.html#ixzz0qBy0bJ2b


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Jun 7, 2010)

Fox vs Springer ....  who would win?


----------



## tarannau (Jun 7, 2010)

Anyway who's seen the aftermath of a fox in a henhouse is unlikely to quibble with that description tbh. I can't actually believe that you believe that violence in particular is a human only characteristic. 

How exactly have the media distorted the fact that a woman is claiming that she heard her babies cry and came into their room to find a fox and them covered in blood? It's a hell of a distortion, isn't it?

You certainly seem to be going against basic principles of probability and common sense in your haste to excuse the fox.


----------



## cesare (Jun 7, 2010)

urb said:


> Fox vs Springer ....  who would win?



Springer. No contest.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

urb said:


> Fox vs Springer ....  who would win?



The fox IMO


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

cesare said:


> Springer. No contest.



Springers have been trained for so long to have 'soft mouths' it's quite likely any killer instinct has been suppressed.


----------



## Melinda (Jun 7, 2010)

Ace! 





> This is why shotguns and rifles can come in handy.
> 
> Nobody likes to kill animals (nobody normal anyway) but sometimes it is necessary, if you come face to face with one savaging your baby, for example.
> - Tom, Middlesbrough, UK, 7/6/2010 16:15
> ...


----------



## cesare (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> The fox IMO



Have you ever owned a springer?


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> True, but take into account that when MAFF (as was) did research into this using post mortem techniques on the lamb carcasses they found that many of the lambs that were taken were already dead (or weak/dying) and the foxes were scavenging the carcasses. Only about 3% of the lambs autopsied were healthy and live when taken by the fox.



Quite a lot of sheep attacks are by uncontrolled dogs. It doesn't mean foxes never take live lambs.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Springers have been trained for so long to have 'soft mouths' it's quite likely any killer instinct has been suppressed.



But the fox doesn't know that...


----------



## Melinda (Jun 7, 2010)

Im on the floor! 



> All the more reason to hunt these vermin - take note interfering anti-fox brigade let's hope they bite your kids next!!!
> - Michael J Lee, Sheffield UK, 7/6/2010 9:41
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...riously-injured-fox-attack.html#ixzz0qC1IwPud


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

cesare said:


> Have you ever owned a springer?



I've lived around loads of springers. On Scilly every other dog is a springer because they do a lot of shooting. Springers are daft IME, not inadvertent killers.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

urb said:


> But the fox doesn't know that...


----------



## cesare (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> I've lived around loads of springers. On Scilly every other dog is a springer because they do a lot of shooting. Springers are daft IME, not inadvertent killers.



The question wasn't about inadvertent killing. It was "Fox vs Springer .... who would win?" I.e. springer v fox deathmatch, who would come out top? My money's on springer ... as you'd know if you'd seen them in action outside gundog/retrieval working. The fox would leg it.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Quite a lot of sheep attacks are by uncontrolled dogs. It doesn't mean foxes never take live lambs.



I agree, many sheep attacks are by uncontrolled dogs. And yes, foxes will take live lambs (the 3% that MAFF identified). But, again, dogs = Canini, foxes = Vulpini. They're related but quite distinct species, and exhibit many differences in behaviour.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Anyway who's seen the aftermath of a fox in a henhouse is unlikely to quibble with that description tbh. I can't actually believe that you believe that violence in particular is a human only characteristic.
> 
> How exactly have the media distorted the fact that a woman is claiming that she heard her babies cry and came into their room to find a fox and them covered in blood? It's a hell of a distortion, isn't it?
> 
> You certainly seem to be going against basic principles of probability and common sense in your haste to excuse the fox.



If you read what I posted earlier about surplus killing and caching you'll see there's a sound ecological reason why foxes behave like that in a henhouse, behaviour common to many predators. It's not killing for killing's sake.

As for media reporting:



> The effect on concerned parents of a story that made the press a few years ago may be felt for years to come. Five national newspapers carried an item about a child having been attacked in her bed by a fox. Headlines screamed 'Girl savaged in bed' and 'Fox mauled by toddler as she slept'. The child's mother was reported as saying 'I ran upstairs to find the fox on her bed. The sheets were soaked in blood'. Yet another sensational headline had the little girl 'trying to fend off the savage animal as it bit into her arms'.
> 
> We were naturally interested and began enquiries...... Both the child's mother and the doctor pooh-poohed the story. Only a small scratch, insufficient to even draw blood, was on the child's arm.



From Williams and Wilson. There's no way of telling who to believe, but it's possible the media exaggerate things. (who'd have thought it?)


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

cesare said:


> The question wasn't about inadvertent killing. It was "Fox vs Springer .... who would win?" I.e. springer v fox deathmatch, who would come out top? My money's on springer ... as you'd know if you'd seen them in action outside gundog/retrieval working. The fox would leg it.



Oh, I thought it meant who would be able to kill better. I'm still not sure the fox would leg it tbh.


----------



## cesare (Jun 7, 2010)

urb said:


> But the fox doesn't know that...



You're assigning human thoughts to animals here .. they don't work that way.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> I agree, many sheep attacks are by uncontrolled dogs. And yes, foxes will take live lambs (the 3% that MAFF identified). But, again, dogs = Canini, foxes = Vulpini. They're related but quite distinct species, and exhibit many differences in behaviour.



So, why do you think a fox is incapable of attacking a baby when a dog is.

The thing with any Maff/Defra evidence is it's going to be mainly anecdotal.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2010)

Is it?


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Is it?



It is when it comes to what killed a lamb


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2010)

Is it?


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> So, why do you think a fox is incapable of attacking a baby when a dog is.
> 
> The thing with any Maff/Defra evidence is it's going to be mainly anecdotal.



Foxes = Vulpini, Dogs = Canini. Biologically different, genotypically and phenotypically. It is possible that a fox will attack a human baby but it's impossible to say whether this is because the fox sees the baby as 'prey' or as a result of aggression caused by fight or flight behaviour.   

The MAFF research as I stated was post mortem study, not anecdotal. But yes, you're right, a lot of other research into this subject has been anecdotal.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> Foxes = Vulpini, Dogs = Canini. Biologically different, genotypically and phenotypically. It is possible that a fox will attack a human baby but it's impossible to say whether this is because the fox sees the baby as 'prey' or as a result of aggression caused by fight or flight behaviour.
> 
> The MAFF research as I stated was post mortem study, not anecdotal.



So, what about all the lambs where no body is left behind?


----------



## cesare (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Oh, I thought it meant who would be able to kill better. I'm still not sure the fox would leg it tbh.



Yeah springers are good at flushing out and they don't do that with an amiable nonchalant amble towards the game    Then good at retrieving, where your soft mouth comes in. 

They're not a passive breed, they're well up for it. I doubt a fox could face one down, I'm sure they'd leg it. 

(My only dogbite scar is from our springer, despite plenty of herd dog type nips from german shepherds and bouviers)


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

cesare said:


> Yeah springers are good at flushing out and they don't do that with an amiable nonchalant amble towards the game    Then good at retrieving, where your soft mouth comes in.
> 
> They're not a passive breed, they're well up for it. I doubt a fox could face one down, I'm sure they'd leg it.
> 
> (My only dogbite scar is from our springer, despite plenty of herd dog type nips from german shepherds and bouviers)


I'm still not sure. Fox v Jack Russell and I'll concede


----------



## discokermit (Jun 7, 2010)

i bet it was a cat.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> So, what about all the lambs where no body is left behind?



That was addressed by the study, of course it's impossible to determine the cause of death when the entire carcass is consumed, but I think they found this was actually quite rare - most of the carcasses were partially consumed and either left in the open or cached.

Not a perfect study of course, but more scientific than previous anecdotal research I suppose.

This was a study into upland sheep farming btw. By comparison, mortality rates (from all causes) were lower in lowland areas.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> That was addressed by the study, of course it's impossible to determine the cause of death when the entire carcass is consumed, but I think they found this was actually quite rare - most of the carcasses were partially consumed and either left in the open or cached.
> 
> Not a perfect study of course, but more scientific than previous anecdotal research I suppose.
> 
> This was a study into upland sheep farming btw. By comparison, mortality rates (from all causes) were lower in lowland areas.



In the 8 yrs I've been on the smallholding I have _never_ seen an uncontrolled, unaccompanied dog. The only time we have had a problem with dogs was when the hunt lost control of their dogs and they got seen off by the sows. I have, however seen multiple foxes and lost various livestock to foxes.

I can only echo tarranau's 'wtf'


----------



## cesare (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> I'm still not sure. Fox v Jack Russell and I'll concede



Jack Russell,  for sure! Jack Russell even more likely to win than retriever/gundog! Them terriers ... no matter their size. Fox loses.

It would have been funnier if urb had asked us who'd win between Alsation and fox. They both look quite similar in a way ... and then you'd have had the lols of German Shepherd not even distaining attention as long as fox didn't threaten flock.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> In the 8 yrs I've been on the smallholding I have _never_ seen an uncontrolled, unaccompanied dog. The only time we have had a problem with dogs was when the hunt lost control of their dogs and they got seen off by the sows. I have, however seen multiple foxes and lost various livestock to foxes.
> 
> I can only echo tarranau's 'wtf'



Of course foxes will take livestock (especially hens), nobody's denying that.


----------



## DRINK? (Jun 7, 2010)

Kanda said:


> The family had complained to the council about the foxes previously apparently... in which case, they may well be in the shit if they done nothing.



even more stupid for leaving the door open


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> Of course foxes will take livestock (especially hens), nobody's denying that.



I haven't lost a hen in 8 yrs. It's been mainly ducks and geese and turkeys. I find it confusing why this debate has taken the turn it has. Yes, thankfully, fox attacks on humans seem to be rare (so far) but it certainly doesn't mean it can't happen.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Jun 7, 2010)

My apologies for diverting the thread with my reference to English Springer Spaniels.


----------



## cesare (Jun 7, 2010)

DRINK? said:


> even more stupid for leaving the door open



Yeah, leaving the door open in a city/suburbia ain't a good plan.


----------



## _pH_ (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> I haven't lost a hen in 8 yrs. It's been mainly ducks and geese and turkeys. I find it confusing why this debate has taken the turn it has. Yes, thankfully, fox attacks on humans seem to be rare (so far) but it certainly doesn't mean it can't happen.



I'd agree with that in general (and I'm not sure how we got here either), although I don't know whether by 'attack' you mean a deliberate attempt by a fox to kill a human baby for food, or an 'attack' as the result of a fox attempting to escape from a situation which, despite its familiarity with an urban environment, was still threatening and alien. I suspect it's the latter as an attack to kill for food (or whatever reason) would appear to be unprecedented and not definitively confirmed by observation (and I don't believe it is behaviour that can really be extrapolated from the behaviour of domestic dogs), but we will never know for certain.

You were asking about fox population figures more recent than the ones I quoted. I don't know if this answers the question adequately:



> Foxes moved into cities in the 1930s and for four decades, until the 1980s, local authorities shot and trapped foxes in London in an attempt to exterminate them. This failed. *By the 1980s there were an estimated 33,000 adult foxes in urban areas. Scientists believe populations have not risen significantly since.* The highest densities of foxes are now found in cities but the Veterinary Association for Wildlife Management believes urban foxes still account for only 14% of the total population.



From this.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

So, why do you think the fox attacked the babies?


----------



## cesare (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> So, why do you think the fox attacked the babies?



For the same reason I just poked you in the eye and tiggled your ribs. Because it can.


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

cesare said:


> For the same reason I just poked you in the eye and tiggled your ribs. Because it can.



Oh. That was you, was it? I was hanging out for Johnny Depp 

Yeah, I think the same re the fox but I'm still struggling with the fact that a lot of people seem to think foxes can do no wrong unless they're cornered or threatened in some way.


----------



## cesare (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Oh. That was you, was it? I was hanging out for Johnny Depp
> 
> Yeah, I think the same re the fox but I'm still struggling with the fact that a lot of people seem to think foxes can do no wrong unless they're cornered or threatened in some way.



I'm not with you on that 'foxes can do right or wrong' thing that you said ... but I do think it's a mistake if people think urban foxes are domesticated, cos they ain't.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 7, 2010)

obviously if I hadn't been at work today I could have kept pace with this thread

it now makes sense why there was a tv crew at the top of my road this morning(E9 victoria park)

I know these foxes, I have looked kindly on them, now I wish I hadn't
 - we have loads of foxes round our way and there have been noticeably more in the the last two years.  there is a large school grounds round here where they live


----------



## girasol (Jun 7, 2010)

_pH_ said:


> I agree, many sheep attacks are by uncontrolled dogs. And yes, foxes will take live lambs (the 3% that MAFF identified). But, again, dogs = Canini, foxes = Vulpini. They're related but quite distinct species, and exhibit many differences in behaviour.



But, amazingly, you can breed foxes into dogs (well, tame foxes with dog like physical attributes and behaviour) after 35 generations.  A Russian geneticist (Belayev) did so in the fifties (according to Richard Dawkins in The Greatest Show on Earth)

It's not really relevant to this thread, but interesting, nonetheless 

found a video on the experiment:


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2010)

Iemanja said:


> But, amazingly, you can breed foxes into dogs (well, tame foxes with dog like physical attributes and behaviour) after 35 generations.  A Russian geneticist (Belayev) did so in the fifties (according to Richard Dawkins in The Greatest Show on Earth)
> 
> It's not really relevant to this thread, but interesting, nonetheless
> 
> found a video on the experiment:



So there is a link between aggressiveness and being ginger?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 7, 2010)

... £800,000 three-storey Victorian terraced house....
Tommy Walsh, the celebrity builder from BBC's Ground Force lives opposite the 
Kouppasis' house.
RADA trained actor Ben Whishaw, who starred in the 2008 film Brideshead Revisited, lives a few doors down.
Scottish actor John Hannah, who starred in 1994 film Four Weddings and a Funeral and Sliding Doors opposite Gwyneth Paltrow in 1998, also lives close by.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...riously-injured-fox-attack.html#ixzz0q8pAbspM

didn't know I had such well connected neighbours!

don't quite know how this is relevant to a fox attack - maybe I am safe because I live in the council block at the bottom of the road?  Maybe foxes only go for £800 000 houses?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2010)

*"the middle classes being attacked by foxes!!!!!!11!!"*


----------



## madzone (Jun 7, 2010)

Miss-Shelf said:


> ... £800,000 three-storey Victorian terraced house....
> Tommy Walsh, the celebrity builder from BBC's Ground Force lives opposite the
> Kouppasis' house.
> RADA trained actor Ben Whishaw, who starred in the 2008 film Brideshead Revisited, lives a few doors down.
> ...



Well, that explains it. Luvvy foxes are utter cunts.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 7, 2010)

madzone said:


> Well, that explains it. Luvvy foxes are utter cunts.





maybe they want their own show?


----------



## gokarnalad (Jun 7, 2010)

I live on this street and have just spoken to someone who was there.
They do not have any pets.
The fox entered the house after they had a barbque,passing the leftovers in the kitchen.
Later that evening a policeman sitting the house was disturbed by a fox trying to get in the house.
The pest control killed a fox in the same garden shortly afterwards.
All very sad.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 7, 2010)

gokarnalad said:


> I live on this street and have just spoken to someone who was there.
> They do not have any pets.
> The fox entered the house after they had a barbque,passing the leftovers in the kitchen.
> Later that evening a policeman sitting the house was disturbed by a fox trying to get in the house.
> ...



hello neighbour


----------



## gokarnalad (Jun 7, 2010)

Miss-Shelf said:


> hello neighbour



I think i used to live very near you 
4 story council block,by the common?


----------



## gokarnalad (Jun 7, 2010)

Miss-Shelf said:


> hello neighbour



How is Gertie on the 2nd floor?
Lovely old dear but hard work!


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 7, 2010)

gokarnalad said:


> I think i used to live very near you
> 4 story council block,by the common?



 - have you moved up the road now to classier foxes?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 7, 2010)

gokarnalad said:


> How is Gertie on the 2nd floor?
> Lovely old dear but hard work!



she is still going well (did you used to live in that block?)


----------



## girasol (Jun 7, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> So there is a link between aggressiveness and being ginger?



Nope, they were silver foxes


----------



## gokarnalad (Jun 7, 2010)

Yes and yes


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 7, 2010)

gokarnalad said:


> Yes and yes



I guess I know you and will take this to pm


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2010)

Iemanja said:


> Nope, they were silver foxes



Oh.


----------



## laptop (Jun 7, 2010)

So I read the first few posts, then ran my whiffometer over the BBC story.

Not a peep. But then I'm not



> John Bryant, a pest control consultant who specialises in foxes



who told the BBC



> the attack did not sound like typical fox behaviour.
> 
> He said: "They will walk into houses, walk round, mess on the bathroom floor and sometimes sleep on the bed if people are not around.
> 
> "It just doesn't make any sense to me."






So. _Daily Fail_ gone big on this. Was the fox wearing a hoodie?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2010)

Perhaps they were ginger foxes that had gone grey because of the cold.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 7, 2010)

gokarnalad said:


> The fox entered the house after they had a barbque,passing the leftovers in the kitchen.


so, the fox couldn't be bothered with leftovers and instead went upstairs and attacked two babies? sounds like bollocks.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2010)

I thought that. Why avoid the tantalising smell of cooked food in favour of seeking out something that it didn't know was there? Assuming it was looking for food that is but I assume that's how it spends most of its waking hours.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 7, 2010)

You should all be glad you don't live in Florida:



> A Tampa middle school had a scaly visitor this morning as an alligator prowled the school grounds before being captured.
> 
> The roughly 7-foot gator was discovered about 7 a.m., just as students started arriving at Stewart Middle School on Spruce Street.



http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/jun/07/071643/7-foot-gator-captured-tampa-middle-school/news-metro/


----------



## gokarnalad (Jun 7, 2010)

discokermit said:


> so, the fox couldn't be bothered with leftovers and instead went upstairs and attacked two babies? sounds like bollocks.



Exactly what I thought.
But this is true.


----------



## gokarnalad (Jun 7, 2010)

gokarnalad said:


> Exactly what I thought.
> But this is true.



Anyway,not sure they were upstairs.
The point being this fox passed an easy meal to go to these babies.
Very sad development if true.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2010)

laptop said:


> So. _Daily Fail_ gone big on this. Was the fox wearing a hoodie?



Look at the contrasting imagery.

The BBC:








The Daily Fail:


----------



## laptop (Jun 7, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> The Daily Fail:



That's going to have an effect on house prices, isn't it?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2010)

Hopefully!


----------



## laptop (Jun 8, 2010)

And cause an influx of lesbians?


----------



## Iguana (Jun 8, 2010)

madzone said:


> I've lived around loads of springers. On Scilly every other dog is a springer because they do a lot of shooting. Springers are daft IME, not inadvertent killers.



Springers are the 12th smartest dog there is and it's much higher for the field strain as field and show are still classed as one breed and the show dogs lower them on the curve.  They come across as crazy/daft as they have _so_ much energy and are so interested in everything around them while having stupid ears, a sweet disposition and are very laid back (once they have enough exercise).  

But they are scarily intelligent, ludicrously agile, have one of the best senses of smell of any dog and a very swift ability to form a working pack with dogs they don't live with without 'alpha' aggression.  I also know from experience that a young springer can outsmart, run down and kill a fox in well under a minute.


----------



## Funky_monks (Jun 8, 2010)

This thread is fucking bizarre!

I knew people were anti-hunt, but I didn't believe that there were people so pro-fox out there that they suspect that this was a dog instead and its all some massive cover-up.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 8, 2010)

I saw a fox this morning. It was crossing a road. No human remains about his snout. All is well with the world again.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2010)

laptop said:


> And cause an influx of lesbians?



And east European Muslim terrorist ones, no doubt.


----------



## Louloubelle (Jun 8, 2010)

This news item really pissed me off

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/07/urban-fox-attack-london

Terry Nutkins isn't a naturalist he is a wildlife entrepreneur whose business ventures have included to supplying of dolphins to amusement parks (an ugly and cruel business) and who exploited his relationship with Gavin Maxwell to depict himself as some kind of wildlife conservationist and authority on animal behaviour, which he is not. 

The fact that he uses this horrible event to try to grab some press coverage for himself is typical of his cynical approach to PR. 

I really feel for the babies' parents and I hope that they recover soon.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> I really feel for the babies' parents and I hope that they recover soon.



One has been transferred to Great Ormond Street, clearly not doing well at all.


----------



## girasol (Jun 8, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Perhaps they were ginger foxes that had gone grey because of the cold.



yes dear


----------



## marty21 (Jun 8, 2010)

I've seen footage of black foxes on Springwatch - those fuckers look cool


----------



## FoxyRed (Jun 8, 2010)

Save the Foxes!


----------



## madzone (Jun 8, 2010)

marty21 said:


> I've seen footage of black foxes on Springwatch - those fuckers look cool



You don't get them in Cornwall


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 8, 2010)

marty21 said:


> I've seen footage of black foxes on Springwatch - those fuckers look cool



Springwatch was ace last night! Blah blah baby swallows, baby deer etc then some footage of a fox and the cliffhanger "And we'll find out what our fox has been eating in tomorrow's programme!"


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 8, 2010)

5t3IIa said:


> Springwatch was ace last night! Blah blah baby swallows, baby deer etc then some footage of a fox and the cliffhanger "And we'll find out what our fox has been eating in tomorrow's programme!"





Seriously?


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 8, 2010)

claphamboy said:


> Seriously?



Seriously! I did think 'Oooh, this is live isn't it?'


----------



## Strumpet (Jun 8, 2010)

This is roughly the equivalent of calling for the execution of all taxi-drivers in Cumbria.


----------



## madzone (Jun 8, 2010)

What is?


----------



## Strumpet (Jun 8, 2010)

Not this thread. 
The media mania calling for culling of foxes.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 8, 2010)

s'hardly new though. They used to try and then hang pigs who got loose and munched on kids back in them days where we bought the animals into the house overnight. The cull calls are the same sort of idiot response.


----------



## Strumpet (Jun 8, 2010)

I know Dotty. 
It's just still surprising how many idiots buy into the media frenzy.


----------



## madzone (Jun 8, 2010)

Culling the fucking idiots who think they're some sort of pet and encourage them into their gardens would be a better idea


----------



## Strumpet (Jun 8, 2010)

madzone said:


> Culling the fucking idiots who think they're some sort of pet and encourage them into their gardens would be a better idea



With you on that!


----------



## boskysquelch (Jun 8, 2010)

have the meedja had any confirmation that the bites/wounds are or could be foxies?


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 8, 2010)

5t3IIa said:


> Seriously! I did think 'Oooh, this is live isn't it?'



I've just had to check it out on the iplayer (about 56.30 in), and the:

_what’s extraordinary is the foxes that we’ve been watching …… are targeting a rather different and surprising prey item and I’ll tell you more about that tomorrow.   _

... bit is bad enough, but just before that....

_... they rarely bump into rogue kids, if they do they will take them and can eat them particularly in the first few days after birth_


----------



## marty21 (Jun 8, 2010)

5t3IIa said:


> Springwatch was ace last night! Blah blah baby swallows, baby deer etc then some footage of a fox and the cliffhanger "And we'll find out what our fox has been eating in tomorrow's programme!"



they did mention the fox attack, but only briefly, it got in the way of cute fox cub footage


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jun 8, 2010)

Strumpet said:


> This is roughly the equivalent of calling for the execution of all taxi-drivers in Cumbria.



I know just the man for the job. Oh.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 8, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> This news item really pissed me off
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/07/urban-fox-attack-london
> 
> ...




What was wrong with that article? I have heard from several sources that fox attacks on humans are virtually unheard-of, and the theory that this was a juvenile that was exploring and panicked when it jumped into the cot is very plausible. I'm guessing the fox was as surprised to see the babies as they were to see it. 

It's an unfortunate, freakish accident.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 8, 2010)

Comments from a man posting on the BBC website:

_Foxes have killed my friends' pet rabbit, bitten off its head and buried it in the garden. Another friend had the corpse of his beloved cat dug up and decapitated by foxes. My uncle lives in Yorkshire and raises chicken. He tells me that a fox will break into the chicken pen, kill one chicken for food *and then slaughter all the rest out of sheer spite.*
Tom, London_

Sheer spite!


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2010)

Would it have been better if he'd said the fox had slaughtered all the rest in a cuntily unnecessary fashion then?

I like foxes, but they're nastily destructive when they want to be.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 8, 2010)

I swear the HYS mods just choose the most moronic comments in order to troll the license payer.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Jun 8, 2010)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Comments from a man posting on the BBC website:
> 
> _Foxes have killed my friends' pet rabbit, bitten off its head and buried it in the garden. Another friend had the corpse of his beloved cat dug up and decapitated by foxes. My uncle lives in Yorkshire and raises chicken. He tells me that a fox will break into the chicken pen, kill one chicken for food *and then slaughter all the rest out of sheer spite.*
> Tom, London_
> ...



Sheer spite - yeah those spiteful little wild animals


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 8, 2010)

Boris has called for a greater focus to control the "pests" in the capital. 

Meanwhile, The Telegraph:



> London's fox epidemic: Let's get hunting, Boris
> 
> Auberon Waugh had the right idea. He proposed setting up a Shepherd’s Bush Hunt that would meet on Brook Green every Saturday morning. I would happily join such a troupe, but the problem is we wouldn’t be able to kill nearly enough of them. What Boris needs to do is assemble a crack team of marksmen who will comb London’s neighbourhoods after dark, shooting all foxes on sight.



http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100042410/londons-fox-epidemic-lets-get-hunting-boris/


----------



## Maggot (Jun 8, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> This news item really pissed me off
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/07/urban-fox-attack-london
> 
> ...





littlebabyjesus said:


> What was wrong with that article? I have heard from several sources that fox attacks on humans are virtually unheard-of, and the theory that this was a juvenile that was exploring and panicked when it jumped into the cot is very plausible. I'm guessing the fox was as surprised to see the babies as they were to see it.
> 
> It's an unfortunate, freakish accident.



I agree with lbj.  It was a reasonable, well balanced article, and hardly the self-promotion you're implying.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Jun 8, 2010)

You know what the media is like in this country I wonder how long it will take for them to find another fox attack!  There'll soon be a spate of foxes attacking our children


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 9, 2010)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/10251349.stm


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 9, 2010)

Rutita1 said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/10251349.stm



Monday's report?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 9, 2010)

claphamboy said:


> Monday's report?



I didn't see all of this report on Monday...it seems to have been added to.


----------



## tommers (Jun 9, 2010)

> What Boris needs to do is assemble a crack team of marksmen who will comb London’s neighbourhoods after dark, shooting all foxes on sight.



Brilliant plan.  What could _possibly_ go wrong?


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 9, 2010)

tommers said:


> Brilliant plan.  What could _possibly_ go wrong?



Yup more people roaming the streets with guns, taking pot shots.  It's a plan without flaw.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 9, 2010)

claphamboy said:


> Boris has called for a greater focus to control the "pests" in the capital.
> 
> Meanwhile, The Telegraph:
> 
> ...



of course there are plenty of well armed crack teams operating in \london ATM anyway


----------



## ska invita (Jun 9, 2010)

Typical tory fox hunting bollocks - up the hunt sabs!


----------



## DeadManWalking (Jun 9, 2010)

Haven't read the whole thread but there are so many chicken shops in London and people disgarding the bones that I am not surprised that the number of foxes is rising


----------



## tommers (Jun 9, 2010)

DeadManWalking said:


> Haven't read the whole thread but there are so many chicken shops in London and people disgarding the bones that I am not surprised that the number of foxes is rising









Brilliant.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 9, 2010)

He's probably got a point to be fair. Clearly these foxes got confused between a discarded KFC Zinger Tower burger and 9 month old twins. They've go no sense of sight or smell you know

Like WTF?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 9, 2010)

I feel that chicken bones don't get regarded enough.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 9, 2010)

Teaboy said:


> Yup more people roaming the streets with guns, taking pot shots.  It's a plan without flaw.



In the current climate, it might be a decent alternative to unemployment.


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 9, 2010)

jer said:


> In the current climate, it might be a decent alternative to unemployment.



You mean ‘accidentally’ shooting the unemployment?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Would it have been better if he'd said the fox had slaughtered all the rest in a cuntily unnecessary fashion then?
> 
> I like foxes, but they're nastily destructive when they want to be.



It's not like we don't slaughter chickens ourselves for food or anything.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 9, 2010)

claphamboy said:


> You mean ‘accidentally’ shooting the unemployment?



 

It's a terrible idea, isn't it - pitching the marginalised against the demonised?


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 9, 2010)

tarannau said:


> I like foxes, but they're nastily destructive when they want to be.



FFS why do we keep projecting these subjective human judgements on to animals.  Has no one read Moby Dick?

I saw a Ring Necked Parakeet being a right cunt to a cherry tomato the other day


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 9, 2010)

Teaboy said:


> FFS why do we keep projecting these subjective human judgements on to animals.  Has no one read Moby Dick?
> 
> I saw a Ring Necked Parakeet being a right cunt to a cherry tomato the other day



They're all over West London these days. I imagine they'll be next on the list for culling


----------



## Strumpet (Jun 9, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What was wrong with that article? I have heard from several sources that fox attacks on humans are virtually unheard-of.....
> It's an unfortunate, freakish accident.



I agree.


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 9, 2010)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Comments from a man posting on the BBC website:
> 
> _Foxes have killed my friends' pet rabbit, bitten off its head and buried it in the garden. Another friend had the corpse of his beloved cat dug up and decapitated by foxes. My uncle lives in Yorkshire and raises chicken. He tells me that a fox will break into the chicken pen, kill one chicken for food *and then slaughter all the rest out of sheer spite.*
> Tom, London_
> ...



 

If they are not disturbed by the farmer they bury them.  Presumably to eat later although I supppose it might be to get back at a girlfriend who dumped them, or for an art project.


----------



## DeadManWalking (Jun 9, 2010)

tarannau said:


> He's probably got a point to be fair. Clearly these foxes got confused between a discarded KFC Zinger Tower burger and 9 month old twins. They've go no sense of sight or smell you know
> 
> Like WTF?



Er, I didn't say that that the reason for the attack was because they eat KFC etc, I said the number of chicken shops and waste was responsible for the number of foxes.

Twat


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 9, 2010)

DeadManWalking said:


> Er, I didn't say that that the reason for the attack was because they eat KFC etc, *I said the number of chicken shops and waste was responsible for the number of foxes.
> *



Surely it's more than that? An abundance of household rubbish waste too, no preditors either...not to mention being feed by well meaning (yet naive) people.


----------



## madzone (Jun 9, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> If they are not disturbed by the farmer they bury them.  Presumably to eat later although I supppose it might be to get back at a girlfriend who dumped them, *or for an art project*.


----------



## DeadManWalking (Jun 9, 2010)

Rutita1 said:


> Surely it's more than that? An abundance of household rubbish waste too, no preditors either...not to mention being feed by well meaning (yet naive) people.



Yeah it's not soley chicken shops of course, I just hate fried chicken shops and any excuse to have a dig at them!


----------



## madzone (Jun 9, 2010)

Tbf any mother who thinks it's ok to feed nine month old babies KFC is asking for trouble if she knows there's foxes around.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 9, 2010)

As many others have pointed out, the urban population of foxes don't appear to have risen notably in recent years.

This thread is like a gimp hobbyhorse magnet. We've had folks projecting their dislike of dogs, denying the possibility of fox attacks and now waffling on about fried chicken for some unknown poncing reason. Unbalanced flapjacks the lot of them

Now if the parents involved had left a trail of crispy chicken bones on the stairs leading to the cot you may have a vague point. But guess what? 

And I don't know about you C66, but when I eat chicken I don't run around a kill more chickens that I have no prospect of eating. Foxes do, frequently, as surely as cats often play with their prey.


----------



## madzone (Jun 9, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Now if the parents involved had left a trail of crispy chicken bones on the stairs leading to the cot you may have a vague point.



How do you know they didn't? Were you there?


----------



## tarannau (Jun 9, 2010)

Call it a hunch. They look more the type to leave olives and perhaps a bit of bruschetta.

Deadmanwalking may approve of their middle class eating habits rather than sneering in a unbalanced numpty fashion at fried chicken. Thank the lord


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 9, 2010)

tarannau said:


> This thread is like a gimp hobbyhorse magnet. We've had folks projecting their dislike of dogs, denying the possibility of fox attacks and now waffling on about fried chicken for some unknown poncing reason. Unbalanced flapjacks the lot of them



tbf you've been responsible for a load of the bollocks on this thread.


----------



## madzone (Jun 9, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Call it a hunch. They look more the type to leave olives and perhaps a bit of bruschetta.
> 
> Deadmanwalking may approve of their middle class eating habits rather than sneering in a unbalanced numpty fashion at fried chicken. Thank the lord



Ah well, I wish someone had said that before. Foxes fucking love bruschetta. Case closed.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 9, 2010)

Like what Teaboy? The only thing I've been consistently guilty of is saying that foxes are capable of attacking a 9 month old baby. 

No allegations about fried chicken, no conspiracies that it was a dog or parental cover up, no guessing anything else. No more, more less.

What the fuck is your objection with that? Quote away all those objectionable or inaccurate posts of mine all you like.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 9, 2010)

I already have.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 9, 2010)

Where chap? Feel free to quote away again. I'm on text only browsing at mo...


----------



## madzone (Jun 9, 2010)

Teaboy said:


> I already have.



The actions quoted are beyond doubt, it's only the language used to describe them.


----------



## DeadManWalking (Jun 9, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Call it a hunch. They look more the type to leave olives and perhaps a bit of bruschetta.
> 
> Deadmanwalking may approve of their middle class eating habits rather than sneering in a unbalanced numpty fashion at fried chicken. Thank the lord



Not really, just somewhere else I read it was all the fault of namby pamby veggie animal lovers who feed the foxes, it is in fact a number of issues of course.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 9, 2010)

Ah, you read _somewhere else_

The Knobjob weekly eh? What is with this thread.

Still waiting Teaboy. I do hope it's not some toss claiming that words like violent are solely human characteristics, because really that would be piss weak hair-splitting, wouldn't it?


----------



## madzone (Jun 9, 2010)

DeadManWalking said:


> Not really, just somewhere else I read it was all the fault of namby pamby veggie animal lovers who feed the foxes, it is in fact a number of issues of course.



People feeding the foxes has a major impact on their behaviour around humans. Even Terry Nutjobs will agree.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 9, 2010)

madzone said:


> The actions quoted are beyond doubt, it's only the language used to describe them.



But thats the point.  A fox like any other animal is incapable of being nasty, or nice for that matter, it's an entirely subjective human projection.  A fox is only capable of being a fox.

We do not own this world, we share it, instead of just looking to wipe out every animal thats doesnt suit us (I'm not say anyone is suggesting this, apart from sas on that other thread) we need to learn to live with them.

The meaningless and complete bollocks cliche about the fox killing for fun has reguarly been used to justify the large scale extermination of a species, it should not go unchallanged.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 9, 2010)

I agree. But what fried chicken's got to with any of that is a highly moot point. 

I've rarely seen a thread full of such knobbery and prejudices tbh


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 9, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Ah, you read _somewhere else_
> 
> The Knobjob weekly eh? What is with this thread.
> 
> Still waiting Teaboy. I do hope it's not some toss claiming that words like violent are solely human characteristics, because really that would be piss weak hair-splitting, wouldn't it?



It's not hair splitting though is it, it's a matter of point. 

ETA - Removed shouty bit with apologies.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 9, 2010)

Christ DMW is that really your objection. I'm sorry, but words like violent are not solely anthropomorphic - they can be a fairly dispassionate description. It's like claiming that only humans can 'suffer' - that we shouldn't use descriptive terms to convey pain and hardship for them. The aftermath of a fox attack in a chicken house, for example, can be pretty unpleasant. 

I have no wish to wipe out foxes. Hell, I was a hunt sab in Wales a few times, but that's no reason to deny that they can be violent and seemingly pointless killers at times. 

Where you get all this tosh about wanting to own the world is beyond me, although you're clearly projecting. I have not called for any added extermination or control of foxes, just got more than slightly annoyed with these daft claims about dogs, fried chicken and foxes not being capable of it. That's conspiracock nonsense and deserves criticism


----------



## madzone (Jun 9, 2010)

Teaboy said:


> But thats the point.  A fox like any other animal is incapable of being nasty, or nice for that matter, it's an entirely subjective human projection.  A fox is only capable of being a fox.
> 
> We do not own this world, we share it, instead of just looking to wipe out every animal thats doesnt suit us (I'm not say anyone is suggesting this, apart from sas on that other thread) we need to learn to live with them.
> 
> The meaningless and complete bollocks cliche about the fox killing for fun has reguarly been used to justify the large scale extermination of a species, it should not go unchallanged.



But it still does what it does - it doesn't matter if you call it instinct or spite. Learning to live with them is fine (if somewhat airy fairy) but disturbing the balance of behaviour by feeding them is downright dangerous in the long term. The key point for me in all of this is when you listen to the mother being interviewed and she says that the fox didn't even run away when she started screaming hysterically. That's not the behaviour of an animal who's scared of humans. I've been closer to foxes in London than in all my time in the country. The balance is changing and they aren't fluffy little cute doggies - they're wild animals and they kill things. Live with them all you like  but don't expect to be their friend.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 9, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Edited.  Thought you were replying to me.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 9, 2010)

madzone said:


> But it still does what it does - it doesn't matter if you call it instinct or spite. Learning to live with them is fine (if somewhat airy fairy) but disturbing the balance of behaviour by feeding them is downright dangerous in the long term. The key point for me in all of this is when you listen to the mother being interviewed and she says that the fox didn't even run away when she started screaming hysterically. That's not the behaviour of an animal who's scared of humans. I've been closer to foxes in London than in all my time in the country. The balance is changing and they aren't fluffy little cute doggies - they're wild animals and they kill things. Live with them all you like  but don't expect to be their friend.



Who's saying they want to be their friend?  I don't feed fox's, I think it's stupid and irresponsible.

Perspective is all I'm saying, this is a nasty incident and we need to monitor carefully if Fox's are changing.  

Figures for 2008/9 show that over 5000 people were admitted to hospital with injuries from dog attacks.  I can't find a figure for fox attacks in the same period, I rather suspect it is 0.

Just to be clear, I love dogs and grew up with 2, it's just a context stat.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 9, 2010)

Do cats play with something for fun? Or is that only a human concept.I repeat: this seems like weird hair-splitting to me. Every single word like 'nasty' (in isolation) has been counterbalanced by other descriptions in my posts.

Why would some be sceptical btw? What is it that makes a fox attack so unlikely and the word of a parental eye witness so easy to discount. There were folks alleging all kinds of cack from the early pages of this thread, right through to the KFC end here. 

Why not pick those up, given your logical reservations to those posts must be huge compared to some fairly minor issues with mine?


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 9, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Why would some be sceptical btw? What is it that makes a fox attack so unlikely and the word of a parental eye witness so easy to discount.



Because fox attacks are so amazingly rare.  Some previous attacks attributed to foxes were later found out to be dogs, so there is precedence.

I believe the mother, her word is all I need.  That being said we need it 100% confirmed by the doctors, because if Fox behaviour is changing we need to know about it, and at the moment there is a lot of doubting going on.


----------



## tommers (Jun 9, 2010)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10276286.stm

Pictures.  Fox in house, policeman took a picture.

probably a dog in a basil brush outfit.


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 9, 2010)

tarannau said:


> I agree. But what fried chicken's got to with any of that is a highly moot point.
> 
> I've rarely seen a thread full of such knobbery and prejudices tbh



And yet you've been here since 2002.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 9, 2010)

madzone said:


> People feeding the foxes has a major impact on their behaviour around humans. Even Terry Nutjobs will agree.



Madz
I live down the road from where this attack took place - I'm not sure that people round here do feed foxes - maybe there's just a lot of space/food for them in the environment and no predators?

I have noticed a massive increase in their numbers in the last two to three years, they are around a lot more in the daytime and have learnt not to be afraid of humans - they saunter about whereas a few years ago they would have shot off at the first sight of a human


----------



## the button (Jun 9, 2010)

Finally I start a thread on a topic people are interested in .

Probably killed it now, like.


----------



## marty21 (Jun 9, 2010)

the button said:


> Finally I start a thread on a topic people are interested in .
> 
> Probably killed it now, like.



it was a timely thread, has it all, you ticked a lot of boxes

middle class hand wringing - check
parents - check
babies - check
cute furries - check
hackney - check


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 9, 2010)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Madz
> I live down the road from where this attack took place - I'm not sure that people round here do feed foxes - maybe there's just a lot of space/food for them in the environment and no predators?
> 
> I have noticed a massive increase in their numbers in the last two to three years, they are around a lot more in the daytime and have learnt not to be afraid of humans - they saunter about whereas a few years ago they would have shot off at the first sight of a human



I'd agree with this.

I'd heard from a park ranger (we live in a nature reserve) that when fox cubs leave their mother because they then have to find their own territory and food, it can make them aggressive and they take risks that they wouldn't normally.  We've had a bit of a nightmare with them fighting, coming through the fence and ripping the bin bags open, jumping on the front of the boat (and sending our dog into orbit  ), they do seem very bold to what they used to be.  It was a young 'un that attacked me.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 9, 2010)

marty21 said:


> it was a timely thread, has it all, you ticked a lot of boxes
> 
> middle class hand wringing - check
> parents - check
> ...


----------



## the button (Jun 9, 2010)

marty21 said:


> it was a timely thread, has it all, you ticked a lot of boxes
> 
> middle class hand wringing - check
> parents - check
> ...



hilarious tags - check


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 9, 2010)

DeadManWalking said:


> Haven't read the whole thread but there are so many chicken shops in London and people disgarding the bones that I am not surprised that the number of foxes is rising



Naa, you're wrong, my dog _always_ gets there first.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2010)

tarannau said:


> And I don't know about you C66, but when I eat chicken I don't run around a kill more chickens that I have no prospect of eating. Foxes do, frequently, as surely as cats often play with their prey.



Well I don't know how many chickens you personally kill but I imagine chicken shops aren't a hundred percent efficient and some chickens reared for food never end up on anyone's plate for various reasons. 

Plus plenty of people kill animals for fun. Coincidentally the example i'll give is fox hunting.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2010)

Perhaps the fox kills all the chickens because it considers them vermin and a pest. Who knows?


----------



## jefflightfoot (Jun 10, 2010)

Advice On Deterring Urban Foxes - what you can do and what you mustn’t do


----------



## jefflightfoot (Jun 10, 2010)

Advice on keeping urban foxes away - what you can do and what you mustn't do!


----------



## kabbes (Jun 10, 2010)

I've heard suggestions from chicken owners that the reason foxes rip chickens to bits is actually in trying to get them small enough to get them back out of the chicken enclosure   No idea if that's true or not though.


----------



## the button (Jun 10, 2010)

jefflightfoot said:


> Advice on keeping urban foxes away - what you can do and what you mustn't do!



Some sage advice on there: -



> Fencing can also be used to prevent foxes gaining access to gardens. It is important that if fencing is already there, it does not have gaps or holes in it.



Well, I would never have guessed. Good tip about not having holes in the fence, too.


----------



## wtfftw (Jun 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> I've heard suggestions from chicken owners that the reason foxes rip chickens to bits is actually in trying to get them small enough to get them back out of the chicken enclosure   No idea if that's true or not though.



Nah.  They just like shredding stuff up.  ((my guinea pigs))


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2010)

Foxes kill all the chickens cos they're in a coup and all the flapping sends the fox schizo.

If you keep your chickens outside at night a fox may take one, but should leave the rest.

Worked for me and my Khaki Campbells. But they're ducks, so maybe Mr Fox ran out of plum sauce?


----------



## kabbes (Jun 10, 2010)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Foxes kill all the chickens cos they're in a coup and all the flapping sends the fox schizo.
> 
> If you keep your chickens outside at night a fox may take one, but should leave the rest.
> 
> Worked for me and my Khaki Campbells. But they're ducks, so maybe Mr Fox ran out of plum sauce?


This guy reckons that since he got his fencing right two years ago, he hasn't lost any.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 10, 2010)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> *Foxes kill all the chickens **cos they're in a coup* and all the flapping sends the fox schizo.
> 
> If you keep your chickens outside at night a fox may take one, but should leave the rest.
> 
> Worked for me and my Khaki Campbells. But they're ducks, so maybe Mr Fox ran out of plum sauce?



quite right too. Counter revolutionary feathered scum


----------



## girasol (Jun 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> I've heard suggestions from chicken owners that the reason foxes rip chickens to bits is actually in trying to get them small enough to get them back out of the chicken enclosure   No idea if that's true or not though.



There's always a reason why animals do apparently 'cruel' things.  If only we stopped judging them by our own standards, and who are we to judge them anyway, we are the most destructive of the whole lot   There ain't no animals that kill for money, apart from us, it's all about survival.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Jun 10, 2010)

kabbes said:


> This guy reckons that since he got his fencing right two years ago, he hasn't lost any.



I like his warning to "Every Day 'Think Fox'" 

I am going to do that from now on. In every way!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2010)

Iemanja said:


> There's always a reason why animals do apparently 'cruel' things.  If only we stopped judging them by our own standards,



Quite.

Even on this thread someone has come out with the gem, "Foxes are the only animal that kills for pleasure"


----------



## girasol (Jun 10, 2010)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Quite.
> 
> Even on this thread someone has come out with the gem, "Foxes are the only animal that kills for pleasure"



I thought that was cats  (which of course it's not)

oh, for gawd's sake:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-caught-backyard-home-baby-girls-mauled.html

I wonder if this is a marketing campaign by the people selling 'Nite Eyes'...


----------



## laptop (Jun 10, 2010)

Iemanja said:


> I wonder if this is a marketing campaign by the people selling 'Nite Eyes'...



It's certainly turned into one now...


----------



## Louloubelle (Jun 10, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What was wrong with that article? I have heard from several sources that fox attacks on humans are virtually unheard-of, and the theory that this was a juvenile that was exploring and panicked when it jumped into the cot is very plausible. I'm guessing the fox was as surprised to see the babies as they were to see it.
> 
> It's an unfortunate, freakish accident.



1.  Nutkins is not an animal behaviourist.  His claim to be a naturalist is pretty cheeky.  His professional (and very lucrative) business throughout the 70s and into the early 80s was as a dolphin trainer and supplier of dolphins to amusement parks.  This is documented fact.  His claim to be a naturalist is based on his early relationship with Gavin Maxwell, who was a naturalist, not a wildlife entrepreneur like Nutkins. 

2.  this statement by Nutkins is speculation presented as fact.  



> What I am definite about is that this fox did not go "on purpose" to attack the two children; that's simply not what foxes want to do. Any injury it caused those children would have been, in that sense, accidental.



3. More nonsense here.  Foxes avoid us do they?  not where I live they don't. 



> This has been reported as an attack by a fox, but I am doubtful. Domestic animals are far more likely to attack humans as they do not attempt to avoid us as foxes do.



4. More speculation presented as fact.



> They [foxes]will never hunt humans, but only defend themselves if they feel that their own lives or their young are being threatened.



5.  I can make no sense at all of this statement which suggests that it is possible to relocate urban foxes in a rural environment providing it's done in the way that the RSPCA do it.  Any real authority on foxes will tell you that releasing urban foxes into the wild is cruel and pointless as the foxes do not survive. 



> The RSPCA does a tremendous job in getting these animals out of inner cities and it's this kind of approach that we need to encourage. I would discourage people from placing fox traps in their gardens. They are not really a sensible way to deal with the problem, unless you know what type of trap to use and how to use it. We mustn't allow people to go out and lay down traps willy-nilly to catch the foxes. People also won't know what to do with a fox once they've caught one. You have to know of an agency that is willing to come and take the fox away, otherwise you're stuck with this terrified fox in your garden.



Apart from all of that the article is fine.


----------



## el-camino (Jun 10, 2010)

funny how we have foxes attacking babies now, arent the tories in favour of overturning the anti-hunting laws? How many attacks made the news under labour, who's playing who? Media fooling the public or tory scum manipulting the press.


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 10, 2010)

el-camino said:


> funny how we have foxes attacking babies now, arent the tories in favour of overturning the anti-hunting laws? How many attacks made the news under labour, who's playing who? Media fooling the public or tory scum manipulting the press.



It’s a conspiracy!


----------



## Louloubelle (Jun 10, 2010)

More reported fox attacks on children 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1155652.ece

At the time of all these attacks various "experts" came forward to say that it wasn't a fox / must have been a dog / must have been a accident.

On this occasion the injuries were so severe that the cops and medics will have investigated things thoroughly and carefully to determine the species of animal.  Also a cop took a photo of the animal concerned which to all intents and purposes is a fox. 

I don't think that the fox apologists are going to have their claims unchallenged this time, which must be a relief for the parents of the other kids who were attacked and whose claims that a fox did it were ridiculed. 

I don't think anyone is saying that fox attacks on children are common, but to say that they "never happen" seems arrogant and misguided. 

We are constantly learning about animal behaviour.  New footage of previously unheard of animal behaviour surfaces all the time, largely due to everyone having mobiles with cameras, as happened on this occasion.


----------



## Geri (Jun 10, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> Also a cop took a photo of the animal concerned *which to all intents and purposes* is a fox.




What on earth does that mean - either it's a fox or it isn't. There is no reference in the article to any investigation or photograph taken by the police.


----------



## Louloubelle (Jun 10, 2010)

photo taken by a cop who attended the scene of the attack, using his mobile 

It is a bit grainy but it is either a fox or a dog doing an impressive imitation


----------



## el-camino (Jun 10, 2010)

And of course we can allways rely on the great british bobby to be right 100% all the time. Thats just a pic of a 'fox' at a window, could be any window anywhere. The Fox had just been chased out of the house by screaming parents hellbent on kicking its arse from hackney to harlesden BUT it came back to have its photo taken by PC Plod, i find that a tad odd.


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 10, 2010)

el-camino said:


> And of course we can allways rely on the great british bobby to be right 100% all the time. Thats just a pic of a 'fox' at a window, could be any window anywhere. The Fox had just been chased out of the house by screaming parents hellbent on kicking its arse from hackney to harlesden BUT it came back to have its photo taken by PC Plod, i find that a tad odd.



It *IS* a conspiracy!


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> photo taken by a cop who attended the scene of the attack, using his mobile
> 
> It is a bit grainy but it is either a fox or a dog doing an impressive imitation



And obviously it was that large mouse that attacked the kids as it waited at the scene of the crime to be questioned.

E2A: Actually it looks more like a fox if you move away from the monitor.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 10, 2010)

Of course the fox was at the window. The Standard said tonight that 3 had been caught in the garden.

That's what happens when you feed foxes in your garden, they come back for more...


----------



## marty21 (Jun 10, 2010)

there was a* FOX!!!* in my Hackney garden just now!!!!!!!


<closes windows and doors>


----------



## Iguana (Jun 10, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> photo taken by a cop who attended the scene of the attack, using his mobile
> 
> It is a bit grainy but it is either a fox or a dog doing an impressive imitation



No it's not.  It a picture of a fox in the family's garden several days after the attack.


----------



## Louloubelle (Jun 10, 2010)

Iguana said:


> No it's not.  It a picture of a fox in the family's garden several days after the attack.



Not according to this news story

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/64390...olice-saw-fox-by-door-just-after-twins-attack

or this one, if you prefer the BBC 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10276286.stm

This story from the local paper is interesting as it says that the photo was taken hours after the attack but that the fox was being aggressive and trying to get into the house while there were people inside, presumably close enough to take that photo. 

That's either a rabid fox or a fox that has been fed and pampered by people to the extent that it has little fear of humans,  Foxes are pretty bold around here and I've gotten very close to them (6 feet or so) without them bothering to move, but a fox aggressively attempting to get into a house with people in it is one very bold fox 
http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/con...=newshkyg&itemid=WeED09 Jun 2010 14:28:34:377


----------



## el-camino (Jun 10, 2010)

Course its a conspiracy, the tories wanna go back to hunting and killing just like the old days.next it will be Davee camerons bootboys sticking up anyone who sez boo to a goose, that includes cleggy, compo, foggy and the rest of the dodering gits in liberal party. Taxation, unemployment be like maggie never left.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 10, 2010)

Well given that you'd have to kill at least 75% of urban foxes to make any impact on the population, it'll have to be one hell of a hunt. 

A war on foxes to match Mao's war on sparrows, and we all know what a success that was.


----------



## Louloubelle (Jun 10, 2010)

Urban fox hunting, in the form of youths mounted on BMXs and mountain bikes and accompanied by bull terriers, could solve the urban fox problem and the problem of bored youth having nothing to do in the holidays. 

In these austere times creative ideas are the way forward.


----------



## Louloubelle (Jun 10, 2010)

Seriously we should eradicate foxes in cities and replace them with Fennec Foxes and then live happily ever after in a world of cuteness 

http://www.maniacworld.com/Cat-Forcibly-Cleaning-a-Fox.html


----------



## discokermit (Jun 10, 2010)

if there was a cull of urban foxes, i bet rat population numbers would explode.


----------



## Iguana (Jun 10, 2010)

discokermit said:


> if there was a cull of urban foxes, i bet rat population numbers would explode.



And the nearly as nasty grey squirrels.


----------



## Louloubelle (Jun 10, 2010)

Just introduce Fossas to our cities



death will come swiftly to squirrels


----------



## discokermit (Jun 10, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> Just introduce Fossas to our cities
> 
> 
> 
> death will come swiftly to squirrels


they'll be biting your babies faces off before you can scream 'introduced species disaster'.


----------



## Louloubelle (Jun 10, 2010)

discokermit said:


> they'll be biting your babies faces off before you can scream 'introduced species disaster'.



OK, that is a small drawback, I'll grant you that.  Small children too probably. 

We could always introduce leopards to sort out the fossas once all the squirrels had been dealt with.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 10, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> OK, that is a small drawback, I'll grant you that.  Small children too probably.
> 
> We could always introduce leopards to sort out the fossas once all the squirrels had been dealt with.


tigers would sort out the leopards once the fossas are gone.


----------



## Louloubelle (Jun 10, 2010)

discokermit said:


> tigers would sort out the leopards once the fossas are gone.



that's the spirit!


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> Just introduce Fossas to our cities
> 
> 
> 
> death will come swiftly to squirrels




Or better still: The cane toad.


The only predator of the cane toad is the cane toad. Plus as a bonus they're hallucinogenic.


----------



## the button (Jun 11, 2010)

Louloubelle said:


> Urban fox hunting, in the form of youths mounted on BMXs and mountain bikes and accompanied by bull terriers, could solve the urban fox problem and the problem of bored youth having nothing to do in the holidays.
> 
> In these austere times creative ideas are the way forward.



And perfectly in tune with Disco Dave's plans for a new community-based National Service, too.


----------



## the button (Jun 21, 2010)

Looks like the Stokey foxes went to the seaside this weekend: -



> A child was taken to hospital after a report that he had been attacked by a fox in Brighton, police have said.
> 
> The three-year-old boy was bitten on the arm while attending a party at Dorothy Stringer High School at midday on Saturday.
> 
> ...



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sussex/10363646.stm


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## el-camino (Jun 21, 2010)

C'mon you Foxes. Lets face it if your dumb enough to pull a wild animals tail, your gonna get bit. Gene pool must be getting smaller in brighton.


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## laptop (Jul 1, 2010)

> The family said they chose to speak to Panorama, in a film made by the independent production company that Mr Koupparis works for, in an effort to deal with some of the aftermath of the publicity surrounding the fox attack, including having the horror of what happened to their daughters questioned by wildlife experts and animal rights activists.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10468276.stm


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## tarannau (Jul 1, 2010)

yes. That's it, they faked this whole saga to make mahoosive profits off a short film for a selection of those high paying documentary producers

They'll be millionaires Rodney


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## Citizen66 (Jul 1, 2010)

There was photos of the babies in the paper today. Sure there's grazes and a bit of scarring but at the time it sounded like one of them had half their face missing or something.


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