# Questions to ask when visiting primary schools?



## Cloo (Nov 1, 2011)

Got my first 'potential primary school for my daughter' visit tomorrow and the first questions that come to my mind are along the lines of:
- What secondary schools do kids go onto, also perhaps, specifically, which/any selective ones?
- Before/after school activities - what and how much?
- Music making - is there a choir/music ensemble (if there isn't a choir, I might be up for stepping up and doing one if I could find a way!)
- How much homework (not hugely bothered either way, but helpful to know)?

Be interested in any parents'/teachers' views of good questions. And maybe bad ones


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## Thora (Nov 1, 2011)

I think I'd want to know what the policy on homework is, if they have breakfast/after-school/holiday clubs and whether they police lunchboxes/what the school dinners are like.


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## weepiper (Nov 1, 2011)

Er. Mine have always just gone to the catchment school so no questions were necessary. If I had I think Thora's ones would be the first I'd think of too. Maybe how much PE time they get too.


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## Athos (Nov 1, 2011)

Food.  Exercise.  Outdoors time.  Play.


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## Cloo (Nov 1, 2011)

Oh yeah, I'd be interested in PE as this does vary. I may ask about lunchbox policy, mainly as the policy of policing them pisses me off.

Visiting 4 schools so far, maybe will add another one or two while we can.


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## weltweit (Nov 1, 2011)

I know someone who asks what proportion of kids qualify for free school meals and how many have special educational needs. Personally I think both of these are irrelevant.

But discipline is I think important. I went to look at one school where they worked on a system of carrot rather than stick and was most impressed, they also held a top ofsted rating, sadly we did not go to that one in the end.

But I would definately know their latest ofsted rating and ask them about any shortfallings.


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## Cloo (Nov 1, 2011)

I've seen the local school ofsteds, though it was a few months ago and one or two of them may have had an inspection since. Our nearest school, for example, had its last one I saw in 2008, I think, but it's been through quite a few changes since (all positive, and it had a pretty positive Ofsted back then).

Of the four I'm looking at, two are 'good' by Ofsted (our probably first choice school and our nearest one which is probably our insurance) and the other two excellent (a bit further a way, though not far, and definitely oversubscribed). So not a huge amount to worry about.


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## zaphod22 (Nov 1, 2011)

Class size? Any plans for the size of the classes to increase?

Asking what proportion of kids have special educational needs may be a very pertinent question to ask. There are schools that have a high number of special needs pupils and that are very good at dealing with special needs but they are not necessarily the best schools for kids without special needs as their speciality lies in concentrating to a large degree ont he special needs.


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## Andrew Hertford (Nov 1, 2011)

Also, try going along at the end of school one day and talk to parents waiting for their kids, you can get a feel for a school by looking at the kids when they come out and seeing what interaction there is between parents and staff.

First school, exciting times... I envy you!


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## Cloo (Nov 1, 2011)

zaphod22 said:


> Class size? Any plans for the size of the classes to increase?


 I'm not really bothered by this, in fact... AFAIK it doesn't ultimately affect much within the boundaries of class sizes one gets in the UK.

Andrew - thanks for suggestion about end of day, that sounds like an interesting way of getting a feel for a school.


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## Mrs Magpie (Nov 1, 2011)

What is the staff turnover? Crap schools get through staff at an alarming rate.


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## Cloo (Nov 1, 2011)

Yes, I was wondering about that one. It's interesting that our nearest school and one next to it both have a very mixed intake, lots of EAL and high student mobility, but our nearest one is well rated and the one next to it has skated very close to special measures in recent years, and it's all down to management issues, as far as I can tell. The second school appears not to have had consistent management for some time.

We managed to get to the summer fete of the near school - parents there were very enthusiastic about it and it really uses the diversity of its pupils as a strength.


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## Mrs Magpie (Nov 1, 2011)

I'll be honest about my big mistakes choosing a school. I sent my eldest to a good state primary a fair way away. Big mistake. She didn't know any of the local kids unless I knew their parents and as a result was never really part of the local kids group and was an outsider. This really mattered, living on a council estate. The two youngest went to the local not brilliant primary but were much happier and made good friends in the area whereas my eldest never made her own local friends iyswim. My eldest couldn't wait to leave Brixton, my two younger ones have lifelong local friends and love it here. Maybe that's not an issue where you live but it is for my kids and I think I let my eldest down, socially speaking. Bright kids will do well in most schools. In the end it's down to walking in and gauging the atmosphere. Is it a happy friendly school?


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## souljacker (Nov 1, 2011)

Sadly, the only question worth asking round here is how massively oversubscribed are you and what are the chances of my kid getting in?


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## Mrs Magpie (Nov 1, 2011)

I would add, they're all adults now (37, 26 and nearly 22).


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## Cloo (Nov 1, 2011)

souljacker said:


> Sadly, the only question worth asking round here is how massively oversubscribed are you and what are the chances of my kid getting in?


Everything is, but I think one has to be careful listening to the parent grapevine, where you hear things like 'Oh, they only have about 5 places left every year after siblings' or 'Only people from the adjoining streets get in', because it's not necessarily true and even in London, you're actually more likely than not to get your first choice primary. Apparently a lot of parents don't put the school they really want because they're sure they'd never get it, when it's likely they would as long as it's local.

We could have four schools within 0.5 miles that are good or excellent, so I'm confident that she'd get into one of 'em and we've no need to put down anything further afield. Our nearest one will probably be our 'insurance' rather than first choice, but a very happy insurance.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 1, 2011)

You can find out what the catchment area was for the previous year for schools and other such information quite easily. Most boroughs produce a primary application information booklet. Lambeth's booklet, for example, includes a table for the previous year's admission with the catchment area for each school, number of places available, number of applications, how many went to siblings etc etc.. it's a v. useful document. No need to listen to the parent grapevine at all.

unfortunately we're in a similar position to souljacker and by the time our little girl goes to primary, we'll be lucky to get any place at all!


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## Cloo (Nov 1, 2011)

Yes, I gather this info's available... will try to track it down in Barnet soon. I think they don't have the most up to date version up yet.


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## nagapie (Nov 1, 2011)

Cloo said:


> and even in London, you're actually more likely than not to get your first choice primary. Apparently a lot of parents don't put the school they really want because they're sure they'd never get it, when it's likely they would as long as it's local.



I don't think this is true for Lambeth.


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 1, 2011)

Barnet doesn't, AFAIK. Community schools make the catchment up at random each year.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 1, 2011)

Here is the booklet for Barnet for 2011... has a similar table (although less detailed than lambeth).. the 2012 one should be out shortly I would think..

http://www.barnet.gov.uk/guide-to-primary-education-in-barnet-2011.pdf

yeah.. it says... "A new brochure for the 2012 intake will be available from October 2011." which should have the details for last year.


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 1, 2011)

That's interesting. I suppose it was five years ago we were applying for Goneril, and they've upped their game since.


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## TruXta (Nov 1, 2011)

nagapie said:


> I don't think this is true for Lambeth.



Our neighbour insists there are no primary schools at all in Ferndale ward. Anyone know if this is true?


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## nagapie (Nov 1, 2011)

Might be true, can't think of any off the top of my head but it seems unlikely.


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## Thora (Nov 1, 2011)

Interesting, I've just looked up how oversubscribed our nearest schools - our closest one (satisfactory Ofsted) had 165 applications for 60 places, and the furthest away child who got a place was 440m.  Second closest (in special measures) was 79 for 45 places and 500m, and third (good Ofsted) was 245 applications for 90 places and 960m.

So the primary places situation in Bristol is so bad that even schools in special measures are oversubscribed!


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## TruXta (Nov 1, 2011)

nagapie said:


> Might be true, can't think of any off the top of my head but it seems unlikely.



Rumour has it they flogged them all off by the nineties to be turned into flats...


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## Red Cat (Nov 1, 2011)

Birmingham doesn't seem to have this info online (last years admissions) and I can't work out where to get it. I'm sure I've seen it before though. Am I being stupid?


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## ShiftyBagLady (Nov 1, 2011)

You need to know about attainment and progression and that stuff, that's important educational stuff but what concerns me most is pastoral support. You may think that pastoral support in such young children is common sense but I was appalled at some attitudes from schools about this. You may also think that your child won't need additional support, will not be disruptive or very unhappy but the measure of a good school is how they deal with children who do need support.
So ask how many exclusions and managed transfers they had last year, what is the role of the SENCO in he school, do hey have mentoring/peer mentoring and proactive/preventative programmes.
Children do best at school when they feel they belong to it so find out if they do anything to really engage and involve children, after school activities and school councils are good indicators. 
Also, ask them what challenges they face. Any teacher who says none is lying. Expect them to tell you how they are addressing them if they are open about it. Ask how many parent governors they have too.
Oh, and if you're against primary academies don't forget to ask the head teacher what discussions they've had about that.


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## nagapie (Nov 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Rumour has it they flogged them all off by the nineties to be turned into flats...



That's likely, that's what happened to the secondaries. They only have enough of those now because of the academies.


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## Red Cat (Nov 1, 2011)

nagapie said:


> I don't think this is true for Lambeth.



Not true for Birmingham either. There's a big shortage of places here and I'm finding the process quite stressful tbh.


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## nagapie (Nov 1, 2011)

Red Cat said:


> Not true for Birmingham either. There's a big shortage of places here and I'm finding the process quite stressful tbh.



It is stressful. I don't look forward to it.


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## Clair De Lune (Nov 1, 2011)

I let my daughter choose her own school out of the three local ones. We visited them all together and were shown round and the one she chose (this was for nursery but it's attached to the primary) the teacher was just fantastic and made us all feel so welcome and secure that she would be happy and well cared for. My daughter is nine now and still loves school and a lot of that I believe is down to the great start she had with the wonderful nursery teacher. She retired at xmas time and I made her a card, inside of which I thanked her for making my daughters first year of school such a positive experience and helping to instill a love of learning in her


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## Cloo (Nov 2, 2011)

Thanks, SBL... I think the pastoral questions can be especially important in schools that are seen as good. I know good schools can be fine as long as the kids are 'fine', but not great at dealing with challenges.

Barnet, like everywhere, does have a shortage of primary places, but, certainly round our way, most primaries are at least good, with only two I can think of locally being problematic.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 2, 2011)

What sort of pastoral care is offered
What do the school do to help the children feel like they 'belong' to the school  community; quite a few primaries have introduced a sort of 'school council' system where those in year 6 actually get to help make some important decisions. If the children are seen as valued it massively increases their chances of succeeding and (more importantly) enjoying school
What SEN support do they offer and how good is it
How much time for 'play' is offered
If your kid is going to be having school luches, are they healthy
Do they get to go on trips / extracurricular activities offered - how much can / are these trips subsidised if there are costs involved


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## Cloo (Nov 2, 2011)

Well, school I just saw was lovely, fantastic but, as I suspected, we're not in catchment and it's 400 applications for 90 places most of the time. OTOH, the catchment area was larger than I thought and would suggest that we probably are in catchment for the other 'excellent' rated school (though I know a number of factors may affect exactly where it spreads to) and definitely for our first choice, where catchment isn't really the issue anyway (it's a Jewish school and, though on the site of our synagogue, is actually affiliated to another movement, and gives priorities to members of Reform synagogues).

The visit was a good practise run anyway, though it's a shame it's not worth us applying for.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 2, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Our neighbour insists there are no primary schools at all in Ferndale ward. Anyone know if this is true?



The map for primaries in Lambeth is on page 23 of the Lambeth booklet.

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/NR/rdonly...C7CC/0/StartingPrimarySchoolLambeth201213.pdf

and the Ferndale ward is here:
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/3512BEDA-B5CB-42BF-A6C3-A196C39FF04A/0/FerndaleWardMap.pdf

so it looks like your neighbour is right.

It is true that some were lost to the buildings being sold off by Lambeth. Most famously Effra primary school was sold off (next to the current nursery and children's centre) to make into luxury flats. The ones which now constantly have To Let/For Sale signs outside. The word is that the politician (whose name I forget now) who signed it off to go ahead then moved his family to the Rosendale catchment area instead. (since he could afford to). This is heresay on my part, but wouldn't surprise me.

actually heard it here on urban!



co-op said:


> I'd love to hear what Jim Dickson has to say about this since he decided that Effra Primary should be closed, just about the same time that he moved out of the area into a nice Tory ward in ThurlowPark and got his own children a nice easy pass into Rosendale Primary.
> 
> What a hypocrite that man is.


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## nagapie (Nov 2, 2011)

Does anyone know what's happening with Fenstanton primary?


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## gaijingirl (Nov 2, 2011)

nagapie said:


> Does anyone know what's happening with Fenstanton primary?



they're supposed to be rebuilding it and adding a secondary... it's pretty controversial though I think.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 2, 2011)

quite a few of the local primaries are taking on extra classes from next year.  I actually spoke to the headteacher at Hitherfield recently and he listed a bunch of them - can't remember which ones off the top of my head but there's some (fairly unhelpful) info here:

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/EducationLearning/EducationEstatesAndCapitalProjects/


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## 1%er (Nov 2, 2011)

Cloo said:


> Got my first 'potential primary school for my daughter' visit tomorrow and the first questions that come to my mind are along the lines of:
> - What secondary schools do kids go onto, also perhaps, specifically, which/any selective ones?
> - Before/after school activities - what and how much?
> - Music making - is there a choir/music ensemble (if there isn't a choir, I might be up for stepping up and doing one if I could find a way!)
> ...


I may be a little late with my comment but I think some of the best people to judge the quality of primary schools are the teachers who work in local high-schools.

They receive these students from many primary schools so should have a good understanding of the different strengths and weaknesses of the local intake.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 2, 2011)

1%er said:


> I may be a little late with my comment but I think some of the best people to judge the quality of primary schools are the teachers who work in local high-schools.
> 
> They receive these students from many primary schools so should have a good understanding of the different strengths and weaknesses of the local intake.



I think this probably works well if you're a provincial or rural secondary.  In the case of many London secondary schools we have such an enormous number of feeder schools that it's not that easy to get a grasp of what the primaries are like - especially as they can change quite quickly.  Also, I find that year 7 students when they first arrive tend to mostly be quite subdued at first - overwhelmed probably at being in "big school".  It takes a while for true personalities to show.

That being said, in my secondary department we run primary taster sessions several times a year and the differences between the groups who come in can be quite noticeable - however on those days they are in their own peer groups, rather than left to their own devices with all the year 8,9,10 and 11s.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 2, 2011)

primary applications in the news today too..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-15537783


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## Cloo (Nov 2, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> quite a few of the local primaries are taking on extra classes from next year. I actually spoke to the headteacher at Hitherfield recently and he listed a bunch of them - can't remember which ones off the top of my head but there's some (fairly unhelpful) info here:
> 
> http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/EducationLearning/EducationEstatesAndCapitalProjects/


In Barnet they apparently ask schools to take turns to have a 'bulge year', an extra form entry, to try to make up for lack of places. As luck would have it, it's apparently the turn of the the nearest 'excellent' school to us to do it in 2012. My brother-in-law, whose son also joins Reception in 2012, apparently doesn't want to put it down because it will have the extra class, but gsv and I aren't bothered by that. Still, have to see what we think of the place before we decide if and where to put it down.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 2, 2011)

Cloo said:


> In Barnet they apparently ask schools to take turns to have a 'bulge year', an extra form entry, to try to make up for lack of places. As luck would have it, it's apparently the turn of the the nearest 'excellent' school to us to do it in 2012. My brother-in-law, whose son also joins Reception in 2012, apparently doesn't want to put it down because it will have the extra class, but gsv and I aren't bothered by that. Still, have to see what we think of the place before we decide if and where to put it down.



They have already been doing that here for a few years, they've done it at the school where my daughter goes to nursery and to the one where she'll likely go to primary but now the situation is so bad that instead of taking turns they're just getting lots of schools to permanently expand.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Nov 2, 2011)

These are the ones I asked?

Are you going to have more kids in this year and build on your playground?
Are you strict and all that?
Are you feeble and let the kids burn each other in the playground or something?
Do you have an early morning club and after school club and holiday club?

Then they just give you the one you are closest to.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 2, 2011)

It's a real problem it seems.  Lambeth have asked its residents to appeal to gov't for more money to create extra places in the borough.  I'm worried (although it's a while off yet) for when our girl goes as it was such a boom year for births, we'll be lucky to get a place at all it seems. I've already heard again (but parental grapevine so might not be true) of parents who are home schooling after not getting a place this year.  I imagine they probably _were_ offered places but possibly so far away it was impossible for them to take them up.

"We have already created 300 additional places since 2009 and need an extra 300 reception places (a total of 2100 permanent places) by 2015 but we need the money to do this."  From Lambeth's "We are running out of space, will your child have a school place by 2015?"


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## weepiper (Nov 2, 2011)

Cloo said:


> In Barnet they apparently ask schools to take turns to have a 'bulge year', an extra form entry, to try to make up for lack of places. As luck would have it, it's apparently the turn of the the nearest 'excellent' school to us to do it in 2012. My brother-in-law, whose son also joins Reception in 2012, apparently doesn't want to put it down because it will have the extra class, but gsv and I aren't bothered by that. Still, have to see what we think of the place before we decide if and where to put it down.



Something to consider, if it's likely to be a case of 'squeezing your child in', is that they'll be in a large class, maybe in too-small accommodation, possibly missing out on thing like PE time/assembly because the school is full to bursting. My kids go to the catchment school, but it is very popular and literally busting at the seams - it's the biggest primary in Edinburgh (700 kids) and this year's P1 intake was 99 children, which caused a massive headache re accommodation. Currently the P1s are being taught in one class of 25 in the main school building, and two classes of 37 with two teachers in the 'temporary' huts in the playground, and the P2s have had to move to what's called 'the Annexe' which is classrooms in a church hall a couple of streets away from the main school, with a tiny playground (literally about the size of my flat) and no provision for school dinners. This is having an effect on my son's education that I didn't realise was likely when I moved here.


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## Cloo (Nov 3, 2011)

Interesting - perhaps I should ask the school about how it will be accommodating the extra class... the school has a pretty big site, so they shouldbn't be too squished, but it's worth finding out what the effect could be.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 3, 2011)

I just asked exactly the same question at a local primary I visited.*  They are actually building to increase capacity and I was worried both about the possible loss of outside space (which is important to us) and also about whether the school would lose its "personal touch" if that make sense - it's nice to think that one's child will be somewhere not so large that they'll get lost or overlooked.

Obviously the head was very confident and to be fair, they've managed to accommodate the building without losing any outdoor space (of which they have an unusually large amount).  I'd prefer it if they weren't expanding but since so many are and there are so few places, I think that we will have very little choice in the matter by the time we send our daughter.

Another school nearby has been rumoured to be putting the playground on the roof in order to use the current playground to accommodate a new building.. I have no idea if this is true or going ahead - but I'd be less keen on that - plus the school doesn't have a great reputation amongst parents to begin with (although a good ofsted rating!).

*our girl is not yet 2 but I'm not some mental mumzilla - we're about to buy a house next to this school and I didn't want to go ahead if we really hated it, so went to have a look on an open morning.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 3, 2011)

Good luck with it Cloo - it is a worrying time and I hope you find just the right place.


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## Red Cat (Nov 3, 2011)

We saw a school we liked yesterday. We also saw one that parents really like and Ofsted rate as outstanding, but I didn't like it. I didn't like the head, and the school is massive; they've just added another form so it's a 4 form intake i.e 120 kids in a year! I think that's just too big.
It's not the nearest - our nearest is a single form entry, new building next to Rosa's children's centre, nice outside space, which is more my kind of thing, but because it's small and in the middle of an estate and all the middle class people want their kids to go the afore mentioned 'outstanding' one, I'm afraid it might not be as mixed as I'd like. The school we liked is further away but had a really nice warm feel, good mix of kids, class wise and ethnically (also kids of people coming to the UK and doing phds at the uni go there, so it's quite international too), they have the biggest school orchestra in Brum (no idea yet if R has any musical aptitude as she can't hold a tune but I like that it's an option), and whilst there's no green space in the school they have a gate onto the park next to it.

The space though compared to R's nursery is just crap though; I find these Victorian schools inadequate for children's needs really.


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## clandestino (Nov 3, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> Another school nearby has been rumoured to be putting the playground on the roof in order to use the current playground to accommodate a new building.. I have no idea if this is true or going ahead - but I'd be less keen on that - plus the school doesn't have a great reputation amongst parents to begin with (although a good ofsted rating!).
> 
> *our girl is not yet 2 but I'm not some mental mumzilla - we're about to buy a house next to this school and I didn't want to go ahead if we really hated it, so went to have a look on an open morning.



Really? Which school is that?


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## gaijingirl (Nov 3, 2011)

Fenstanton.. but like I say, total hearsay.... (the roof bit that is) - the reputation comes from people I know who have withdrawn the their kids from there... although to be fair, some of my own students went there and say it was good.

eta.. that's not the school i went to visit though..


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## kabbes (Nov 3, 2011)

Ask them if they have seen any large bears with big eyes peeking around the side of or over walls.


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## clandestino (Nov 3, 2011)

How weird. We didn't ever visit Fenstanton but it always looks like it has a fair amount of outside space.


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## stuff_it (Nov 3, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Ask them if they have seen any large bears with big eyes peeking around the side of or over walls.


I've really been trying not to mention that for days.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 3, 2011)

ianw said:


> How weird. We didn't ever visit Fenstanton but it always looks like it has a fair amount of outside space.



that's the point.. it's controversial because they're wanting to expand the primary and build a secondary on the site - thereby losing all the space.

It's been going on for ages... see here:

http://www.streathamguardian.co.uk/...test_at_Fenstanton_Primary_site_academy_plan/

"Teachers fear building an academy next to Fenstanton will delay rebuilding the primary school and it losing playspace, while parents are concerned of the impact of the changes on their children."

but I don't know what the state of play is at the moment.. there are 3 documents about it on the school's own website, but it doesn't make it clear what's happening right now.

http://www.fenstanton.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67&Itemid=111

found a more recent article here:
http://www.streathamguardian.co.uk/news/6320929.Funding_released_for_academy_on_Fenstanton_site/

I wonder what the plans are currently though.. anyone know?


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## kabbes (Nov 3, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I've really been trying not to mention that for days.


You have admirable self-restraint 

Of course, you've hurt nobody but yourself.


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## nagapie (Nov 3, 2011)

You'd think with the shortage of places, they'd expand Fenstanton as a primary not a secondary.

None of the schools near me are supposed to be that good. I'll choose the one out of them that has the best music provision. Even if the little one doesn't have an aptitude for it in the end, it's a good way of learning and better than all that phonics and shit at 5.


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## Red Cat (Nov 4, 2011)

The ones nearest us aren't great either, although the 'outstanding' one isn't far. Our nearest, I'll be visiting this morning but I don't expect to like it. The one we like best is a mile away as the crow flies and if we don't get a place there then I fear we'll be offered a place somewhere we haven't chosen, i.e our nearest, as I think you're only likely to get a place at what I'd like to choose as our second or third if you put them first. So much for choice.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 4, 2011)

nagapie said:


> You'd think with the shortage of places, they'd expand Fenstanton as a primary not a secondary.



they're supposed to be doing both .... it's very confusing. I might even call and find out because it will be our 2nd closest school if we move and still v.close if we don't. I think of all of them in this area, it's the one I feel instinctively least keen on based on word of mouth but I've not actually visited it. Surprised that even Jubilee opposite me was massively oversubscribed this year - more than 3 to 1 on applications!


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## gaijingirl (Nov 4, 2011)

Red Cat said:


> The ones nearest us aren't great either, although the 'outstanding' one isn't far. Our nearest, I'll be visiting this morning but I don't expect to like it. The one we like best is a mile away as the crow flies and if we don't get a place there then I fear we'll be offered a place somewhere we haven't chosen, i.e our nearest, as I think you're only likely to get a place at what I'd like to choose as our second or third if you put them first. So much for choice.



gosh you're looking for R too!  It's amazing how quickly these babies grow isn't it!  I hope you find a nice place too.  Maybe we should get together and open the first virtual "free" U75 primary.


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## Red Cat (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks gg.

We did find a nice one, the one I mentioned before. The downside is it's _relatively_ far and I was warned by someone at R's nursery yesterday that the council like you to choose the nearest, which for us is a Victorian school with no access to green space, on the most depressing high street known to man due to zero council investment in the area for decades (we are currently awaiting 'regeneration' courtesy of Tesco who have bribed promised goodies in return for planning permission ).

I'm finding the whole thing quite depressing - all that literacy and numeracy stuff is truly mind shrinking. I'm not surprised home ed is growing.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 4, 2011)

oh that Tesco story is familiar!  They seem to own most of Streatham and Brixton at the moment.

I think when you look into it deeply it is confusing and depressing.  I remember when I was doing my first teaching year realising just how much number crunching/admin/bureaucracy and basically jargon there is around teaching and learning and finding it very tough indeed - I remember having a bit of a breakdown in the office of a senior member of staff along the lines of "this is all a completely pointless waste of time".

At the end of the day though, good teachers will be able to satisfy all that gubbins, some of which is actually quite useful for our planning, whilst essentially still teaching well - and that last bit is all about engaging the students.  The numbers might go some way to helping us to do that but for me, at least, it's much more about building up a class-relationship and encouraging the students.

Personally I'd just like O to be able to read, write, do her sums, run around a lot, do some sport and music, make friends and be happy.  Probably that's all any parent wants.  It's so hard to sort out from all the mumbo jumbo those basic needs.

We're like you - the outside space is something that we feel strongly about, which is partly why we're probably moving to be close to the one school around here that has a really good amount of it.  (not the only reason but it is a big thing in favour of where we're going to).  They also have a lovely separate music department set in their nature garden with an outdoor theatre overlooking the pond and trees.  For me, that sort of thing is really important because I'll damn well make sure myself that she can read and write properly!  Of course, there's absolutely no guarantee she'll get in to that school and at this stage, no guarantee our move will work out anyway.

Another thing that I never knew I'd be feeling so strongly about!


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## Red Cat (Nov 4, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> They also have a lovely separate music department set in their nature garden with an outdoor theatre overlooking the pond and trees.



That sounds lovely!

Nothing like that round here


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## gaijingirl (Nov 4, 2011)

At my group this morning all the other mums have primary age children and had just picked up their application booklets (the one linked to above)... they are all so worried.  Incredible that it causes such worry to so many.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 4, 2011)

Red Cat said:


> That sounds lovely!
> 
> Nothing like that round here



I know - I was really impressed... they'd also made several caves underneath the school - part of which is built on stilts due to a hill.. you had to push through foliage to get in - one contained a beach and the other a little forest.

no guarantee she'll end up there or the whole place isn't turned into some super academy any minute now of course..


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## nagapie (Nov 4, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> I know - I was really impressed... they'd also made several caves underneath the school - part of which is built on stilts due to a hill.. you had to push through foliage to get in - one contained a beach and the other a little forest.



Which one is that? I'm assuming it's where O goes to nursery so massively oversubscribed


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## gaijingirl (Nov 4, 2011)

no it's a different one - we'll never get her into the primary attached to her nursery unless we win the lottery and buy a house practically next door and that doesn't have any green space either (although the playground isn't bad) - we won't even get her into the nursery proper there when she turns 3... the one I'm talking about is also oversubscribed but then even Jubilee had 215 applications for 60 places last year!!


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## Red Cat (Nov 4, 2011)

Red Cat said:


> a Victorian school with no access to green space, on the most depressing high street known to man



Is actually really nice! One form entry, big light classrooms, lovely open-plan well equipped reception classrooms, no green but a very well equipped playground, a little studio to make radio, they've just got an allotment and have signed a contract to do forest school/bushcraft stuff, a new library being done furnished with sofas and beanbags. I liked the head, although Blagsta thought he seemed a bit New Labour - easy to talk to and not at all infantilising. We really liked it, as did friends of ours.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 4, 2011)

Red Cat said:


> Is actually really nice! One form entry, big light classrooms, lovely open-plan well equipped reception classrooms, no green but a very well equipped playground, a little studio to make radio, they've just got an allotment and have signed a contract to do forest school/bushcraft stuff, a new library being done furnished with sofas and beanbags. I liked the head, although Blagsta thought he seemed a bit New Labour - easy to talk to and not at all infantilising. We really liked it, as did friends of ours.



oh hurrah!  What a relief!  This is it really... we can talk and talk but until we visit it's all bets off really.  So me talking about O's future school is a bit silly really - we'll have to visit the lot nearer the time... it's only because we're moving house that we're having to take it into consideration now - as it's not so far off.

I have to say - it sounds lovely.  Can you imagine Rosa being happy there?


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## Red Cat (Nov 4, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> oh hurrah! What a relief! This is it really... we can talk and talk but until we visit it's all bets off really. So me talking about O's future school is a bit silly really - we'll have to visit the lot nearer the time... it's only because we're moving house that we're having to take it into consideration now - as it's not so far off.
> 
> I have to say - it sounds lovely. Can you imagine Rosa being happy there?



I can! I was worried she'd feel squished into a small space at school after being in such a good environment as she is now, but I don't think she'll feel that in this school. More green stuff would be good but I'm sure I can always get involved in fundraising and garden up the tarmac spaces.


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## clandestino (Nov 4, 2011)

There's no green space at our boy's school and it was something that concerned me, especially compared to the amazing outside green space there is at the school gg's looking at (they're very close together), but it hasn't been an issue at all, probably because there's a nice park/playground in between the two schools that we visit fairly regularly (at least three times a week after school). In fact on some Fridays, it's been a really nice park to go to as most of the kids and parents go there too, so it's a nice social space and you get to hang out and chat to the other parents. So even though the playground at our boy's school is pretty small and concrete, it's been fine.

We got the booklet today as well, as we're applying for our youngest's place, who'll start next September. I was surprised to see that the furthest admission last year for our school was 450 or so metres, quite a long way for such a small school. gg - might you be close enough to try going for our school? I can't recommend it enough.


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## nogojones (Nov 4, 2011)

Cloo said:


> Be interested in any parents'/teachers' views of good questions. And maybe bad ones



How much for the little blond one?


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## clandestino (Nov 4, 2011)

Also, another thing to consider. When it says Jubilee has 215 applications for 60 places, that must mean people who put down for first, second and third places on their application. I know some people who've put schools down as their third place that they could never get into, simply because they didn't want to put down a bad school nearer to them, just in case they were given it. We did that for our application too - there was no way the word Fenstanton was going on our application form. So the competition might not be as bad as it first appears...


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## nagapie (Nov 4, 2011)

pm 





gaijingirl said:


> no it's a different one - we'll never get her into the primary attached to her nursery unless we win the lottery and buy a house practically next door and that doesn't have any green space either (although the playground isn't bad) - we won't even get her into the nursery proper there when she turns 3... the one I'm talking about is also oversubscribed but then even Jubilee had 215 applications for 60 places last year!!



me which one, I'm curious.


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## nagapie (Nov 4, 2011)

ianw said:


> Also, another thing to consider. When it says Jubilee has 215 applications for 60 places, that must mean people who put down for first, second and third places on their application. I know some people who've put schools down as their third place that they could never get into, simply because they didn't want to put down a bad school nearer to them, just in case they were given it. We did that for our application too - there was no way the word Fenstanton was going on our application form. So the competition might not be as bad as it first appears...



Which school are you talking about? I have a further interest as a secondary teacher in Lambeth who did a lot of primary school visits last year, but not so many up that way. Jubilee and Holy Trinity have no green space but the former makes use of Brock Park and the latter Holmewood Gardens.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 4, 2011)

ianw said:


> Also, another thing to consider. When it says Jubilee has 215 applications for 60 places, that must mean people who put down for first, second and third places on their application. I know some people who've put schools down as their third place that they could never get into, simply because they didn't want to put down a bad school nearer to them, just in case they were given it. We did that for our application too - there was no way the word Fenstanton was going on our application form. So the competition might not be as bad as it first appears...



I think what it interesting is that if you look at the booklet.. Fenstanton was over-subscribed too but everyone who applied (no matter what choice they put it down as) either got in, or got a higher offer at another school.  However, this is not the case with Jubilee! Very interesting what you say about people putting down an impossible choice for their 3rd school.  Isn't that risky though because can't you be given a school that is none of your choices but simply in the borough?

I have to say I find the process with the offer system v. confusing.  I'll be enrolling gaijinboy's mathematical mind for that!  Interesting that we might even conceivably be in the catchment for your school... that's got a great reputation!


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## sheothebudworths (Nov 4, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I'll be honest about my big mistakes choosing a school. I sent my eldest to a good state primary a fair way away. Big mistake. She didn't know any of the local kids unless I knew their parents and as a result was never really part of the local kids group and was an outsider. This really mattered, living on a council estate. The two youngest went to the local not brilliant primary but were much happier and made good friends in the area whereas my eldest never made her own local friends iyswim. My eldest couldn't wait to leave Brixton, my two younger ones have lifelong local friends and love it here. Maybe that's not an issue where you live but it is for my kids and I think I let my eldest down, socially speaking. Bright kids will do well in most schools. In the end it's down to walking in and gauging the atmosphere. Is it a happy friendly school?



Absolutely agree with all of this  - and fwiw, given that they're all fairly close, I would base your decision almost _entirely_ on the atmosphere of the school (and you can get a pretty good sense of that just from a visit, imo).


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## gaijingirl (Nov 4, 2011)

nagapie said:


> Which school are you talking about? I have a further interest as a secondary teacher in Lambeth who did a lot of primary school visits last year, but not so many up that way. Jubilee and Holy Trinity have no green space but the former makes use of Brock Park and the latter Holmewood Gardens.



Fenstanton use the park a lot too.. they were at the opening of the water/sand play.  The schools I see using it most though are Evelyn Grace (secondary) and Rosendale.


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## Thora (Nov 4, 2011)

gaijingirl said:


> I think what it interesting is that if you look at the booklet.. Fenstanton was over-subscribed too but everyone who applied (no matter what choice they put it down as) either got in, or got a higher offer at another school. However, this is not the case with Jubilee! Very interesting what you say about people putting down an impossible choice for their 3rd school. Isn't that risky though because can't you be given a school that is none of your choices but simply in the borough?
> 
> I have to say I find the process with the offer system v. confusing. I'll be enrolling gaijinboy's mathematical mind for that! Interesting that we might even conceivably be in the catchment for your school... that's got a great reputation!


If you don't get any of your choices, won't you just be given the nearest school with a space?


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## gaijingirl (Nov 4, 2011)

Thora said:


> If you don't get any of your choices, won't you just be given the nearest school with a space?



Yes, that's essentially what I'm saying.. which is why it seems to me to be a bit risky to gamble with your choices really (as Ian was saying some people do) as you do hear of people being given schools really far away - there was one well publicised account of a couple (city financier and hedge fund manager!) who were incensed when instead of being allocated the outstanding school on his road was given a much dodgier school ages away.

I didn't feel so terrible for them when I read this bit of the article though..."Their parents, Greg and Alex, said they are effectively being forced into choosing a closer private school despite living 800 metres from the school gates." Most of us couldn't afford the private school, so they're clearly not in such a terrible situation!


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## girasol (Nov 4, 2011)

I chose my son's primary school (the final one) based on how much outdoor space it had  and proximity to our house (we had just moved to the area).

p.s. he got into our first choice of secondary school, so although the primary school he went to wasn't outstanding, it took good care of everyone.  What Mrs. M said, bright kids do well in most primary schools.


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## catinthehat (Nov 9, 2011)

I would second (or third) staff turnover - consistency is really important - and how many classes in the last 2 years have been covered internally or by supply.  I would also look for use of things like co operative learning and non use of things like learning materials produced by those with vested interests - corporate stuff which is PR dressed up as concern for education.


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## Cloo (Nov 22, 2011)

Well, seen three schools that will be going on the list - this morning's one will be #1; you can see why it's been rated 'excellent'. We are just outside catchment, but it sounds likely they will take an extra class next year, so if they do I think we'd have a fairly good chance of getting in (and space is not a worry, they have loads of it and know how they will use what they have with the extra form). And if they don't take an extra class we still have a weeny chance of getting in, and we have enough choices to definitely put it down first.

The Jewish school is very good, but our nearest school was really impressive in terms of how well they do given a challenging intake. The head is very inspiring and the behaviour of and attention given to teachers by the kids was really good, plus they're not afraid to challenge them.


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## rubbershoes (Nov 22, 2011)

We chose the primary school on the basis it was the only school in the village


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## Cloo (Nov 22, 2011)

Does it go around complaining about its status?


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## Winot (Nov 22, 2011)

Sympathies to everyone going through this horrible business.  At the risk of adding to the nonsense, there's quite a useful site here: Find  School Info.


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## Cloo (Nov 23, 2011)

I dunno, I'm finding it all very interesting, but then we have semi paid for 'schools we don't have to worry about' by living where we do. Absurd and wrong state of affairs, of course - no one should have to live somewhere where they worry about schools for their kids.


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## Pinette (Nov 23, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I would add, they're all adults now (37, 26 and nearly 22).


It's okay, Mrs Magpie.  We all try to do the best we can at the time with our children's education.  There is no other way. Retrospective angst is just redundant.


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## Mrs Magpie (Nov 23, 2011)

Well, with the eldest child, they're the ones you do all the learning by mistakes stuff on. I'm an eldest child myself so I know about eldest stuff. Not angsty, I really did do what i thought was best at the time, as did my Mum and her Mum before her. I'm just passing on what I wish I'd known at the time.


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## Cloo (Nov 25, 2011)

We'll be (unless things go really badly wrong) moving house between when Ez starts school and our son does, but I guess which school she gets into will influence where exactly we move.


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