# RIP Sean Hughes



## Calamity1971 (Oct 16, 2017)

Only 51!  RIP Sean.


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## elbows (Oct 16, 2017)

No details at time of writing. Only 51 

Comedian Sean Hughes dies aged 51


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## colacubes (Oct 16, 2017)

Oh no  That's really sad


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## Teaboy (Oct 16, 2017)

Ah, that's rubbish. I always thought he had a lovely gentle sense of humour.


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## editor (Oct 16, 2017)

Blimey. That is unexpected.


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## ruffneck23 (Oct 16, 2017)

Ah always liked him rip


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## ElizabethofYork (Oct 16, 2017)

Oh fuck.  Always liked him.


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## xenon (Oct 16, 2017)

Shit. Wasn't he having a bit of a come back recently??


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## editor (Oct 16, 2017)

Cardiac arrest



> Comedian Sean Hughes has died at the age of 51, his management has confirmed.
> 
> It is believed he died in Whittington Hospital during the night after suffering a cardiac arrest.
> 
> ...


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## souljacker (Oct 16, 2017)

Oh dear. I always liked him.


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## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2017)

Blimey. He never seemed to look well though, even when he was young.


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## danny la rouge (Oct 16, 2017)

Jeez. That's a shock. I always liked him. What a shame. 51.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

I remember seeing him in some murder mystery TV series (not an Agatha Christie or a Morse, but that sort of ballpark), after not thinking of him for years, and thinking to myself, "so that's what he's doing now, good for him".

RIP SH.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

Is it confirmed that it was cardiac arrest? Because I saw something else saying it was cirrhosis of the liver.


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## WouldBe (Oct 16, 2017)

Sad news. RIP


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## marty21 (Oct 16, 2017)

That is a shock , particularly as we are roughly the same age. RIP.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)




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## krtek a houby (Oct 16, 2017)

Gutted. I met him a few times over the years through a friend of mine. Always a gent and fiercely intelligent.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2017)

very sad. rip


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

Yes, it was Cirrhosis, the IT confirms:

Comedian Sean Hughes dies aged 51, says agent


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## danny la rouge (Oct 16, 2017)

My girls liked the film Mulan when they were young. The villain was called Shan Yu, and there's this scene where he appears with a florish on the Great Wall of China, and there's a gasp and the goodies say ":gasp: Shan Yu!".  Our family running joke was to say ":gasp: Sean Hughes!"

I hoped one day to meet him and tell him that.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)




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## trashpony (Oct 16, 2017)

He wasn't a very nice person in my experience but I'm sorry he's died. That's no age


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## strung out (Oct 16, 2017)

Had the pleasure of meeting him at a charity do once. He was surprisingly down to earth and VERY funny.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

What's the story behind this one, does anyone know?


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## billy_bob (Oct 16, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> Yes, it was Cirrhosis, the IT confirms:
> 
> Comedian Sean Hughes dies aged 51, says agent



Looking at more recent photos of him with the benefit of hindsight, that's not that surprising.  RIP.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

I did smile at this one:


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## editor (Oct 16, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


>



Sorry but that video clip is awful. A soulless robot voice regurgitating a news article. he deserves better than that!


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 16, 2017)

Such a shame. R.I.P.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

editor said:


> Sorry but that video clip is awful. A soulless robot voice regurgitating a news article. he deserves better than that!


It was the first one I could find!


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## YouSir (Oct 16, 2017)

Only knew him from Buzzcocks but definitely a shame, was a funny man and seemed like a decent one too.


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## BoatieBird (Oct 16, 2017)

How sad 
RIP Sean.


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## cybershot (Oct 16, 2017)

This is really sad, seem him live a few times, most recently in January as part of a show with other comedians. I got to shake his hand and he gave me a bottle of plonk after I won 'best pub joke from the audience' where we had to scribble some jokes and plonk them in a bowl. As the joke was Irish based (stolen for that matter) he delivered the punch line brilliantly.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

editor said:


> Sorry but that video clip is awful. A soulless robot voice regurgitating a news article. he deserves better than that!


Remember him this way:


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## neonwilderness (Oct 16, 2017)

Sad news, he was always good on Buzzcocks. His last tweet just says "In hospital"


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## Sprocket. (Oct 16, 2017)

Very sad to hear this always liked his humour and intelligent observations.
RIP


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## Cloo (Oct 16, 2017)

That is quite a shock. My sister will be gutted, she used to love 'Sean's Show'.


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## danny la rouge (Oct 16, 2017)

Cloo said:


> That is quite a shock. My sister will be gutted, she used to love 'Sean's Show'.


I was just looking that up and was amazed to see how long ago it was.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 16, 2017)

Sad news. Loved Sean's show.


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## Dr. Furface (Oct 16, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> I did smile at this one:



I used to love his show on Radio London - think it was Sunday mornings - he did a great interview with Morrissey once on that (would've been around 1999/2000 ish) which I think i might still have on tape. Saw him at the Big Chill festival around that time too.

Last saw him walking on Hampstead Heath a few months ago - he lived round here somewhere, the Whittington hospital is just up the road from us.

Very very sad RIP Sean


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## Plumdaff (Oct 16, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> I did smile at this one:




This is one of my favourites, was about to post it. 51! No age at all. 

Sean's Show reminds me of a very specific, important part of my youth. RIP.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

Oh Sean. 



> One life change Hughes has made in the last couple of years is quitting alcohol, a move he wishes he’d made earlier.
> 
> “I feel I’ve done all my drinking. I’m not going to get anything new out of it and I don’t see the point in drinking, I don’t miss it.



Sean Hughes' last Hot Press interview was a deeply personal affair... | Music | News | Hot Press


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## Casual Observer (Oct 16, 2017)

Shit. Absolutely did not see that coming. Used to enjoy his TV show from way back and, more recently, his sporadic podcast.


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## nuffsaid (Oct 16, 2017)

I was sure these 2 people.....were the same...


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## Wilf (Oct 16, 2017)

trashpony said:


> He wasn't a very nice person in my experience but I'm sorry he's died. That's no age


I was only aware of him through the various panel shows he appeared  on, along with his stand up from a few years ago. I probably shouldn't ask, on an RIP thread, but why was he not a nice person (if you want to go into it of course)?


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## flypanam (Oct 16, 2017)

Fuck. Loved Sean Hughes and loved Sean show. His skit about teenagers with pencil moustaches still makes grin. RIP Sean.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

He was a very _Dublin _comedian, even though he lived in London.


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## trashpony (Oct 16, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I was only aware of him through the various panel shows he appeared  on, along with his stand up from a few years ago. I probably shouldn't ask, on an RIP thread, but why was he not a nice person (if you want to go into it of course)?


I used to work on the door on my boyfriend's club (which was in a tiny backroom of a pub in Camden) and a couple of times he pulled the 'do you know I am' trick to get in for free and was really rude when I told him that we didn't let celebs in free. It was only £3 on the door and we barely broke even most weeks. He was the only 'celebrity' who tried it on. That was a long time ago - maybe he was less of a prick as he got older.


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## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2017)

Didn't he start the thing of comedians following palace?


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

trashpony said:


> - maybe he was less of a prick as he got older.


krtek a houby - what age was he when you knew him?


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## Wilf (Oct 16, 2017)

trashpony said:


> I used to work on the door on my boyfriend's club (which was in a tiny backroom of a pub in Camden) and a couple of times he pulled the 'do you know I am' trick to get in for free and was really rude when I told him that we didn't let celebs in free. It was only £3 on the door and we barely broke even most weeks. He was the only 'celebrity' who tried it on. That was a long time ago - maybe he was less of a prick as he got older.


cheers


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 16, 2017)

I'd heard he was a bit of a dick too (by someone who served him at a hotel or something, can't quite remember). But people have off days, so idk.

I thought he was funny back in the day.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 16, 2017)

always got him mixed up with james nessbit


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## Silas Loom (Oct 16, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> always got him mixed up with james nessbit



I'm not really sure who either of them are.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> always got him mixed up with james nessbit


Call yourself a protestant.


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## trashpony (Oct 16, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> always got him mixed up with james nessbit


He's not very nice either


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## Casual Observer (Oct 16, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Didn't he start the thing of comedians following palace?


Ronnie Corbett might have a claim on that one although no one admits to seeing him at Selhurst (possibly due to his size).


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## Santino (Oct 16, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> always got him mixed up with james nessbit


You're thinking of John Hannah.


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## Thimble Queen (Oct 16, 2017)

Cloo said:


> That is quite a shock. My sister will be gutted, she used to love 'Sean's Show'.



I was a Sean''s Show fan although I was much too young. 51 is no age :/


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)




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## danny la rouge (Oct 16, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> He was a very _Dublin _comedian, even though he lived in London.


Though his great great uncle, Jacques, lived in Paris and was involved in the Dreyfus affair.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Though his great great uncle, Jacques, lived in Paris and was involved in the Dreyfus affair.


You'll pay for this danny la rouge! By god you'll pay!


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## Wilf (Oct 16, 2017)

trashpony said:


> I used to work on the door on my boyfriend's club (which was in a tiny backroom of a pub in Camden) and a couple of times he pulled the 'do you know I am' trick to get in for free and was really rude when I told him that we didn't let celebs in free. It was only £3 on the door and we barely broke even most weeks. He was the only 'celebrity' who tried it on. That was a long time ago - maybe he was less of a prick as he got older.


He seems (seemed ) like a very unlikely sort to pull that trick - quite downbeat and 'distracted'.  Not doubting what you say at all, I'm just wondering how he thought the 'do you not know who I am' line would work.


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## trashpony (Oct 16, 2017)

Wilf said:


> He seems (seemed ) like a very unlikely sort to pull that trick - quite downbeat and 'distracted'.  Not doubting what you say at all, I'm just wondering how he thought the 'do you not know who I am' line would work.


Like I said, it was a long time ago. In the 90s, Hughes suddenly became massively famous, had a huge drinking problem and was probably like we all were, coked up to the eyeballs.


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## Wilf (Oct 16, 2017)

trashpony said:


> Like I said, it was a long time ago. In the 90s, Hughes suddenly became massively famous, had a huge drinking problem and was probably like we all were, coked up to the eyeballs.


Sorry, I'm really not doubting you, it's more the mental image it throws up. You can easily imagine say Gordon Ramsay giving it the full I am, whereas Sean Hughes's stage persona at least was quite downbeat.  But yeah, like you say, 'what's the difference between a hangdog comedian and an entitled idiot - about 3 lines an a bottle of JD', kind of thing.*

* evidence of why my stand up career hasn't taken off.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)




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## trashpony (Oct 16, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Sorry, I'm really not doubting you, it's more the mental image it throws up. You can easily imagine say Gordon Ramsay giving it the full I am, whereas Sean Hughes's stage persona at least was quite downbeat.  But yeah, like you say, 'what's the difference between a hangdog comedian and an entitled idiot - about 3 lines an a bottle of JD', kind of thing.*
> 
> * evidence of why my stand up career hasn't taken off.


I think that's probably why I remember it so vividly - I just didn't expect him to be like that. Morrissey on the other hand - thought he'd be a total twat and he was lovely!


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## SheilaNaGig (Oct 16, 2017)

I knew him a bit in those days. I've not seen him for a while, but other friends have seen him recently.

I knew him as sweet, gloomy, a bit shy and awkward sometimes, hid his light under a bushel kind of guy. That was away from the lights though. We went for walks together.

I remember being out with Sean and a few other comedians in King's Cross one night and all of them behaving like dicks. I said I was leaving and Sean asked me not to. I told him he had to stop being a dick or I'd leave. So he stopped being a dick. The others carried on being dicks.

It was after that night that Sean and I started to hang out together.

He was lovely company. He was a good listener.

So sad to hear of his death. Far too young.


ETA
He could be a bit tight, in my experience, Sean could. I seem to recall having a minor quarrel with him over him not springing for a round one night. And always going halves on the taxi because I realised that while I'd say "no I'll get it this time..." he never did.


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## krtek a houby (Oct 16, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> krtek a houby - what age was he when you knew him?



I met him after the perrier awards, maybe a year after that, so I guess he was in his mid 20s at that stage. He was quite shy and reserved.


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## alsoknownas (Oct 16, 2017)

Sad to hear.  I met him a couple of times, and it was all a bit weird (laddish, paranoid, just off), but Mark Lamarr was there too, and seemed to be the source of most of the weirdness.


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## SheilaNaGig (Oct 16, 2017)

alsoknownas said:


> Sad to hear.  I met him a couple of times, and it was all a bit weird (laddish, paranoid, just off), but Mark Lamarr was there too, and seemed to be the source of most of the weirdness.



Mark Lamarr was... yeah.... I can't  think of a single nice thing to say about him. I'd agree that whenever Sean was being odd ML was close besides him.


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## Maharani (Oct 16, 2017)

Loved this guy. Great music tastes. RIP.


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## Gromit (Oct 16, 2017)

This ain't right. 

The man had a true talent. 

Please God... take someone from Made in Chelsea instead and leave us Sean.


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## kittyP (Oct 16, 2017)

Very sad. Far too young


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## planetgeli (Oct 16, 2017)

trashpony said:


> I used to work on the door on my boyfriend's club (which was in a tiny backroom of a pub in Camden) and a couple of times he pulled the 'do you know I am' trick to get in for free and was really rude when I told him that we didn't let celebs in free. It was only £3 on the door and we barely broke even most weeks. He was the only 'celebrity' who tried it on. That was a long time ago - maybe he was less of a prick as he got older.



Don't recognise this at all. He lived near me in Crouch End and was a dead ringer for a very good mate of mine who also lived in Crouch End which made for interesting double takes in the Kings Head sometimes.

Anyone remember when Jah Wobble twatted him on Buzzcocks? Now, Jah Wobble, there's a cunt as much as I love a lot of his music.

RIP Sean. The Whittington's no place to die.


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## sheothebudworths (Oct 16, 2017)

*turns up the jazz*


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## danny la rouge (Oct 16, 2017)

sheothebudworths said:


> *turns up the jazz*


*Tries to clean the scrambled egg pan.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

"Sean, I know you live on your own".


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## sheothebudworths (Oct 16, 2017)




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## Idris2002 (Oct 16, 2017)

"The lads in my flat, they go mad for coleslaw".


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## sheothebudworths (Oct 16, 2017)

Also..._best_ theme tune, EVER!


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## sheothebudworths (Oct 16, 2017)

Hey trashpony - did you ever go to the Laurel Tree?


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## SheilaNaGig (Oct 16, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> *Tries to clean the scrambled egg pan.




I think of him every single time I clean a scrambled egg pan.


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## SheilaNaGig (Oct 16, 2017)

sheothebudworths said:


> Also..._best_ theme tune, EVER!




...which gives me the excuse to post this...


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## lefteri (Oct 16, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> Anyone remember when Jah Wobble twatted him on Buzzcocks? Now, Jah Wobble, there's a cunt as much as I love a lot of his music.



I'm surprised to hear this - I've chatted to him a couple of times, many years apart, and he seemed lovely


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## trashpony (Oct 16, 2017)

sheothebudworths said:


> Hey trashpony - did you ever go to the Laurel Tree?


Yes! And the Good Mixer and the Dublin Castle


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## planetgeli (Oct 16, 2017)

lefteri said:


> I'm surprised to hear this - I've chatted to him a couple of times, many years apart, and he seemed lovely



Then you’ll know he’s a big man, size wise. Handy with his fists. Trouble is he has a habit of hitting undeserving people.


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## elbows (Oct 16, 2017)

Well I guess this piece is extra poignant now 

Sean Hughes: The thin line between drinks and ‘proper’ drinks


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## 8ball (Oct 16, 2017)

Buh bye Sean.
Buh bye, buh bye, buh bye...

Hope the burglars got there first and left some treats for you.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 17, 2017)




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## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2017)

My single favourite Sean Hughes moment was when he turned up on one of those series about Battersea Dog's Home.  He got his terrier Chalkie from there, and had the staff in stitches, showing them how he'd trained Chalkie to bark at certain words.  Words like "Nuns!", "Priests", "The Pope, Chalkie! The Pope!". We then found out that Chalkie barked at the sight of nuns too, when Sean took him for a walk around northern Battersea.  Chalkie saw a pack of nuns and went doolally!


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## krtek a houby (Oct 17, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


>



That's great Idris, thanks for posting it. Forgot about that from years back. Very apt and moving.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2017)

sheothebudworths said:


> Hey trashpony - did you ever go to the Laurel Tree?


what, the auld laurel tree in camden? more of a dev man myself.


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## kittyP (Oct 17, 2017)

SheilaNaGig said:


> ...which gives me the excuse to post this...




That's brilliant!


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## Idris2002 (Oct 17, 2017)




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## krtek a houby (Oct 17, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


>




Quite a few of Sean's peers and heroes appeared on Father Ted,iirc


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## mrs quoad (Oct 17, 2017)

My sister loved Sean's Show in the 90s. 

So, you know. Hashtagkissofdeath and all that. 

He seemed like one of the less obnoxious people that I disliked because she liked, though. (Most of the others being pretty much every 80s pop star ever, and particularly Bros.)


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## Idris2002 (Oct 17, 2017)

krtek a houby said:


> Quite a few of Sean's peers and heroes appeared on Father Ted,iirc


It did seem to have every Irish comic going, at least that's how I remember it.


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## SheilaNaGig (Oct 17, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> My single favourite Sean Hughes moment was when he turned up on one of those series about Battersea Dog's Home.  He got his terrier Chalkie from there, and had the staff in stitches, showing them how he'd trained Chalkie to bark at certain words.  Words like "Nuns!", "Priests", "The Pope, Chalkie! The Pope!". We then found out that Chalkie barked at the sight of nuns too, when Sean took him for a walk around northern Battersea.  Chalkie saw a pack of nuns and went doolally!




I remember Chalkie! I was trying to remember his name. Sean and Chalkie had only recently met each other, and this was why we went walking in the woods and through parks together. And I realise now that most of the times I was with him, he wasn't drinking. Although we often rounded off the day with a bevvie.

As we were kicking through the leaves one day and Chalkie was walking ahead and snuffling about, criss crossing the path in front of us, Sean said "The problem with having a dog is that you mostly just get to see his arse when you're walking around with him. It's other people who get the benefit of his strikingly good looks."


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## Idris2002 (Oct 17, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> It did seem to have every Irish comic going, at least that's how I remember it.


Like this guy, for example:


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## krtek a houby (Oct 18, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> Like this guy, for example:




Redmond's an brillaint off the wall comic.Stewart Lee's a big fan of his as well.


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 18, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> He was a very _Dublin _comedian, even though he lived in London.



And was born in London.


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## Wilf (Oct 18, 2017)

krtek a houby said:


> Redmond's an brillaint off the wall comic.Stewart Lee's a big fan of his as well.


"Some people say to me ..... _what are you doing in my garden_?"


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## Idris2002 (Oct 18, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> And was born in London.


That's what I mean! A lot of his comedy arose out of his ambiguous relationship to Ireland, and to British pop culture. I do remember a thing he said about being embarassed by the Saw Doctors, and their rural rock'n'roll.


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## Wilf (Oct 19, 2017)

A piece on him here that shifts between his cruelty and kindness - mostly the former - and hints at seriously bad behaviour towards women.
Remembering Sean Hughes: ‘The sadness is he didn’t get to be old, just lonely’


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## Idris2002 (Oct 19, 2017)

Wilf said:


> A piece on him here that shifts between his cruelty and kindness - mostly the former - and hints at seriously bad behaviour towards women.
> Remembering Sean Hughes: ‘The sadness is he didn’t get to be old, just lonely’


This struck a chord:



> I always wondered if he had been lonely. “I think he was a lonely person,” Donnelly says. “And he found it hard to hold down relationships. He would call friends claiming he needed to check something, but really he wanted someone to talk to.”



I might try that one myself.

As for Sean. . . the Irish Tony Hancock?


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## Gavin Bl (Oct 19, 2017)

I found that article in the Guardian a troubling read, as with a lot of revelations in recent times about mistreatment of women by men who were ostensibly nice right on types.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 19, 2017)

Gavin Bl said:


> I found that article in the Guardian a troubling read, as with a lot of revelations in recent times about mistreatment of women by men who were ostensibly nice right on types.


It's a problematic read because it doesn't specify how he treated women badly. It sounds like he treated women he was in relationships with badly, but it doesn't even hint at how. tbh I don't quite see the value in such an article.


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## editor (Oct 19, 2017)

Wilf said:


> A piece on him here that shifts between his cruelty and kindness - mostly the former - and hints at seriously bad behaviour towards women.
> Remembering Sean Hughes: ‘The sadness is he didn’t get to be old, just lonely’


That's quite a depressing read.


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## trashpony (Oct 19, 2017)

It is a depressing article but it also totally underlines what a total tightwad the man was so my limited experiences with him were entirely in character


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## Gavin Bl (Oct 19, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's a problematic read because it doesn't specify how he treated women badly. It sounds like he treated women he was in relationships with badly, but it doesn't even hint at how. tbh I don't quite see the value in such an article.


Indeed, not making a direct comparison on actually what they did, but it feels a bit like that “we all knew really” attitude around Weinstein


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2017)

> He’s in here all the fucking time but until now he’s just been that cunt from Heavy Stereo.


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## krtek a houby (Oct 21, 2017)

That's a tough,depressing read. And he's not even buried yet.


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## Red Cat (Oct 21, 2017)

He had a drink problem, treating people badly, paranoia, bitterness, cruelty often goes along with that.


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## danny la rouge (Oct 21, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's a problematic read because it doesn't specify how he treated women badly. It sounds like he treated women he was in relationships with badly, but it doesn't even hint at how. tbh I don't quite see the value in such an article.


I agree. If a journalist has evidence for something, they should say what it is they have evidence for. If they don't have evidence, they shouldn't say anything.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> I agree. If a journalist has evidence for something, they should say what it is they have evidence for. If they don't have evidence, they shouldn't say anything.


It's a bit more complicated than that in this instance, though, because they are writing as Hughes' friend soon after his death, trying to make sense of the man and his life, yet also interviewing other friends in the manner of a more dispassionate, ‘objective’ account.


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## danny la rouge (Oct 21, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> It's a bit more complicated than that in this instance, though, because they are writing as Hughes' friend soon after his death, trying to make sense of the man and his life, yet also interviewing other friends in the manner of a more dispassionate, ‘objective’ account.


Not following why that means vague hints become worth publishing. The writer is an experienced journalist, writing for a national newspaper. 

If any of us have ever known problem drinkers, we get the picture. That's not the point.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Not following why that means vague hints become worth publishing.



I didn't suggest that, I was noting the problems of the form.


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## Wilf (Oct 22, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> It's a bit more complicated than that in this instance, though, because they are writing as Hughes' friend soon after his death, trying to make sense of the man and his life, yet also interviewing other friends in the manner of a more dispassionate, ‘objective’ account.


I'm sure you are right, the important thing is that it's his friends/former friends saying things, not some mutter mutter, nudge nudge expose.  We can only guess what it was, how much, how bad - maybe best_ not to_ guess (not that anyone has been doing on this thread).  I think we can though, take it that there was some grim behaviour.


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