# Mad Paul Mason



## Proper Tidy (Sep 11, 2019)

Somebody else said we should have a thread on him and I agree, blokes fucking cracked. Didn't think it could get weirder than that play thing on BBC but somehow he's managed it . Anyway, saw this in his latest Guardian piece.

Let's chart Paul Mason's descent into the #fbpe david icke


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## Proper Tidy (Sep 11, 2019)

.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 11, 2019)




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## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 11, 2019)

That selection of pictures just makes him look like a great drinking partner though- I mean if I could wear a mask the whole time in public I bloody would.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 11, 2019)

Best:


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## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 11, 2019)

WHO WAS IN SPAIN ON THAT FATEFUL SUNDAY?


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## Proper Tidy (Sep 11, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Best:


Not working for me but on your previous point I reckon he'd probably be good value to have a few pints with tbf


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## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not working for me but on your previous point I reckon he'd probably be good value to have a few pints with tbf


Well I meant worst, but best of the worst? 
It’s fucking mad though LETS RENEGOTIATE THE LISBON TREATY!


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## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 11, 2019)

I challenge anyone to post madder than that video.


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## Wilf (Sep 11, 2019)

Oh dear.


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## rekil (Sep 11, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> LETS RENEGOTIATE THE LISBON TREATY!


He nicked that off a Proletarian Democracy tshirt slogan shortlist.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 11, 2019)

The winner:


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## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 11, 2019)

I’m forever entertained by people telling me to switch off BBC news. Mate, I never switched it on. You are arguing with yourself, couldn’t you do us a favour and keep the dialogue between you and your shadow off Twitter?


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## krtek a houby (Sep 12, 2019)

Switch off your tv set, leave social media, don't read the papers, don't talk to anyone, stay indoors.


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## William of Walworth (Sep 12, 2019)

krtek a houby said:


> Switch off your tv set, leave social media, don't read the papers, don't talk to anyone, stay indoors.



And don't ever go to the pub either! My new life-plan, as from today


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## Baronage-Phase (Sep 12, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Best:





The strange grimace of a smile at the end is freaky.


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## ska invita (Sep 12, 2019)

This post is going to come across as sanctimonious but I cant help that...sorry to say it Proper Tidy but I think this thread is in bad taste.

My impression is he _is _going through some mental health problems and so calling the thread "Mad Paul Mason", saying "blokes fucking cracked", and posting random pictures to try and back that up doesn't sit well with me. (The quote about 'a single mind coordinating the crisis' is taken unfairly out of context too IMO.)

I don't know him so my armchair analysis means shit all, but my impression is compared to how he seemed when he first started reporting around the 2008 financial crisis and onwards he does come across as increasingly erratic, and to me it looks like he is getting seriously burned out from over engaging and doing too much. In many ways going a bit mad is the sane response...its far from an uncommon trajectory....many amongst us have had our mental health deteriorate as a result of confronting the political situation and struggling to change it.

To me this thread doesn't feel like punching up it feels like punching across at our own. I get the political differences people may have but it doesn't have to be done like this.

By way of a little balance I thought Live Working Die Fighting was an excellent book...in fact there's a lot of good things that can be said about his work....he's genuinely committed...but whatever, sermon over.


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## fucthest8 (Sep 12, 2019)

krtek a houby said:


> Switch off your tv set, leave social media, don't read the papers, don't talk to anyone, stay indoors.



Anyone found outside the gates of their subdivision sector after curfew 
Will
Be
Shot


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## LDC (Sep 12, 2019)

He comes across to me as someone that 'means well' but has gone quite a way down the path of believing his own hype, much like celebs (of which he is in certain circles) who end up not having any ego moderating influences around them to pull them back from the flights of fancy and madness that we all can have. "Yes, yes, yes Paul, tell me again about Greece and Syriza...". Fucking yawn.

His politics are erratic at best, and he gives the impression of being a bit too caught up in the heady mix of the London political scene and all the excitement and egos and drinking and drugs that gives some of them in it this myopic idea that they're the centre of everything and all eyes in the world are on them.

Dunno who his comrades or friends are but if I were them I'd be telling him he needs to take a fucking break from all his breathless excitement about youthful networked kids in tight jeans he's always frothing about on social media and have a good holiday and a word with his ego instead before he explodes in a mess.

Ditto some of Novara tbh.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> This post is going to come across as sanctimonious but I cant help that...sorry to say it Proper Tidy but I think this thread is in bad taste.
> 
> To me this thread doesn't feel like punching up it feels like punching across at our own. I get the political differences people may have but it doesn't have to be done like this.
> 
> By way of a little balance I thought Live Working Die Fighting was an excellent book...in fact there's a lot of good things that can be said about his work....he's genuinely committed...but whatever, sermon over.



I agree with you about the book. I absolutely loved it. The way working class history was presented, the way it attempts to demonstrate continuing structures of feeling and collective memory and the way it provides examples of resistance to dispersal in post industrial places is brilliant.

However, let’s be clear Mason has been on a journey since. From the moment he proclaimed himself to be ‘a public intellectual’. The journey is towards popular frontism, towards a construction of a ‘new working class’ that ditches entire sections of the existing working class for good and towards a strategy that has seen the left obliterated and the far right in ascension where it’s been applied.

This work as LynnDoyleCooper reminds us has been performed within a self satisfied London bubble of affluent people who can afford to ‘do’ politics as a hobby and have incredible self regard for themselves and the bubble and a barely repressed disdain for the rest of us.

Unless narcissism is a mental health issue I can’t agree with the rest of your post


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## sleaterkinney (Sep 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> To me this thread doesn't feel like punching up it feels like punching across at our own. I get the political differences people may have but it doesn't have to be done like this.
> 
> By way of a little balance I thought Live Working Die Fighting was an excellent book...in fact there's a lot of good things that can be said about his work....he's genuinely committed...but whatever, sermon over.


C’mon, they wouldn’t be proper commies if they weren’t shooting their own in the back.  Creepy photos and all.


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## chilango (Sep 12, 2019)

Let's keep our guns turned outwards.


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## NoXion (Sep 12, 2019)

He's not one of us.


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## Proper Tidy (Sep 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> This post is going to come across as sanctimonious but I cant help that...sorry to say it Proper Tidy but I think this thread is in bad taste.
> 
> My impression is he _is _going through some mental health problems and so calling the thread "Mad Paul Mason", saying "blokes fucking cracked", and posting random pictures to try and back that up doesn't sit well with me. (The quote about 'a single mind coordinating the crisis' is taken unfairly out of context too IMO.)
> 
> ...



Fair enough. Probably shouldn't be calling him or anybody else mad. Don't really agree on burnout/mental health crisis, his madness is political imo, although yeah like many others I've had my own stuff which probably wasn't helped by doing political stuff. But Mason is a former economics editor of newsnight and C4 news and has fuck knows how many books published (including live working due fighting, which I also rated), he's a commentator with significant social weight and influence. We're not talking about some minor lefty activist here, ffs that 'why it's kicking off everywhere' play got an hour of BBC2 on a Saturday night, so I think it's entirely legit to have a thread on his politics. Which is what this is meant to be, I've probably not helped that by going in on him being mad but there we are.

Defo don't agree on the 'punching across' thing. Come on.


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## sunnysidedown (Sep 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> He comes across to me as someone that 'means well'



the worst sort.


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## chilango (Sep 12, 2019)

Yep. It's definitely "punching up".

Whether he's the right target at this moment is open to question.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 12, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> C’mon, they wouldn’t be proper commies if they weren’t shooting their own in the back.  Creepy photos and all.



“Proper commies”


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## LDC (Sep 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Yep. It's definitely "punching up".
> 
> Whether he's the right target at this moment is open to question.



Yeah fair enough, except we're not really talking about demos or that, just moaning and chatting shit, sorry I mean analyzing his politics, on here where probably 10 people might read it. I won't be printing leaflets about him, but talking about him on here is fair game imo.


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## chilango (Sep 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah fair enough, except we're not really talking about demos or that, just moaning and chatting shit, sorry I mean analyzing his politics, on here where probably 10 people might read it. I won't be printing leaflets about him, but talking about him on here is fair game imo.



Yeah. I guess. Just a bit wary of getting too sucked into a twitter-lite kinda aimless snipeathon.

If we're picking on Mason (or Jones or Novara or whoever) let's focus on how and why he's not "one of us" and the political context of that rather than - just - pointing and laughing.

Sure, nobody's reading it except us. Probably. But it's not doing us much good.


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## LDC (Sep 12, 2019)

"And there I was, knelt in Syntagma Square with the tear gas in my eyes, and Varoufakis on my right had just shot his copious load over the arm of my tight leather jacket, and I looked left and pleaded for the youthful masked anarchist to concentrate on finishing the job in (my) hand rather than his Twitter and hurry up before the euro collapsed and I missed my deadline for Channel 4."


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 12, 2019)

As far as punching up goes, I thought the whole point of Urban was to rip the piss out of the soft left commentariat? Which he definitely definitely is. 

My money is on a coke problem for the record. But whatever the reason, he comes out with increasingly batshit stuff, the media give him a platform which makes it Important Batshit Stuff, and we may as well have a laugh about it.


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## chilango (Sep 12, 2019)

Yeah. I get all that. I'm not bothered about defending Mason and the like.

But.

...but, I dunno, I feel a bit uncomfortable with it right here, right now.  I don't wanna go all "...but, but Jo Cox!". I really don't. I'm just not sure that it's a good time for this kinda thing.


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## chilango (Sep 12, 2019)

And I know I'm rambling a bit but I just think we need a little bit more kindness in our movements. 

Not for the sake of our enemies but for our own sake. 

Look at the anarchists, the stuff on Twitter it's f****** horrible. If you like elsewhere on the left at the trots and their sex pests, some of the nasty bullying demeanor that's some of the men on the left exhibit....

.... It's not exactly the new world that we carry in our hearts is it?


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## 8ball (Sep 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> And I know I'm rambling a bit but I just think we need a little bit more kindness in our movements.
> 
> Not for the sake of our enemies but for our own sake.
> 
> ...





Needs saying more often.


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## Steel Icarus (Sep 12, 2019)

Everyone should be kinder as much as is possible

Just realised Proper Tidy your new pic is Mason innit. Was thinking it was Shankly or something.


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## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I agree with you about the book. I absolutely loved it. The way working class history was presented, the way it attempts to demonstrate continuing structures of feeling and collective memory and the way it provides examples of resistance to dispersal in post industrial places is brilliant.
> 
> However, let’s be clear Mason has been on a journey since. From the moment he proclaimed himself to be ‘a public intellectual’. The journey is towards popular frontism, towards a construction of a ‘new working class’ that ditches entire sections of the existing working class for good and towards a strategy that has seen the left obliterated and the far right in ascension where it’s been applied.
> 
> ...



Aye, his membership of Workers Power not withstanding I really like his previous work on Channel 4 News and Newsnight. He also did a cracking programme on Northern Soul which was really enjoyable. Since then however he seems less and less the articulator of radical ideas and more and more the shouter of increasingly desperate near conspiratorial measures. Sad...


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> As far as punching up goes, I thought the whole point of Urban was to rip the piss out of the soft left commentariat? Which he definitely definitely is.
> 
> .



This is interesting. Perhaps there is too much focus on this... perhaps there needs to be less 'calling out' and more 'calling in'. Perhaps it's all got a bit too _macho_ and _top bantz.
_
I am not saying that criticism is off the table, I just think that if we're doing it just for the sake of doing it it's time/energy wasted.


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## chilango (Sep 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> This is interesting. Perhaps there is too much focus on this... perhaps there needs to be less 'calling out' and more 'calling in'. Perhaps it's all got a bit too _macho_ and _top bantz._



What's "calling in"?


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> This is interesting. Perhaps there is too much focus on this... perhaps there needs to be less 'calling out' and more 'calling in'. Perhaps it's all got a bit too _macho_ and _top bantz.
> _
> I am not saying that criticism is off the table, I just think that if we're doing it just for the sake of doing it it's time/energy wasted.



You think we need to go #TopTopBantz?


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> What's "calling in"?



Good question.  I picked it up as an expression from another thread recently.

It stayed with me and I understood it to mean identifying the issues & bringing people closer/working at unity not just sending them away with no more than a flea in their ear.

It was jimmer who used it here.


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## JimW (Sep 12, 2019)

Fedayn said:


> Aye, his membership of Workers Power not withstanding I really like his previous work on Channel 4 News and Newsnight. He also did a cracking programme on Northern Soul which was really enjoyable. Since then however he seems less and less the articulator of radical ideas and more and more the shouter of increasingly desperate near conspiratorial measures. Sad...


Yeah, recall his reports from China for Newsnight were much better than the usual, just for the framing and who he talked to - working class people for instance. 
Also thought his California Carafes were the height of sophistication back in the day.


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Good question.  I picked it up as an expression from another thread recently.
> 
> It stayed with me and I understood it to mean bringing people closer/working at unity not just sending them away with no more than a flea in their ear.



Thing about the commentariat is you can't really bring them closer. Or get them to listen to you. They comment and we comment on what they comment. 

In general though I do like the 'calling in' thing and think it was a good way to respond to the call out fad a while back.


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## JimW (Sep 12, 2019)

Though calling in makes me think of a pedalo on a boating lake. "Come in, Jeremy Corbyn, your time is up."


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## tommers (Sep 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> As far as punching up goes, I thought the whole point of Urban was to rip the piss out of the soft left commentariat?


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## tommers (Sep 12, 2019)

Parliament has been suspended (possibly illegally), the Prime Minister has been found guilty of lying to the Queen in a fucking court, the government hasn't complied with an order from Parliament, we've read 6 pages detailing how food and medicine shortages might cause actual deaths, the country is split down the middle about a trade deal, an MP was shot and killed but the important thing is that somebody said something in the Guardian that I find a bit objectionable.

And some of those protesters are wearing inferior outerwear.


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## chilango (Sep 12, 2019)

tommers said:


> And some of those protesters are wearing inferior outerwear.



You've got to draw a line somewhere.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 12, 2019)

tommers said:


> Parliament has been suspended (possibly illegally), the Prime Minister has been found guilty of lying to the Queen in a fucking court, the government hasn't complied with an order from Parliament, we've read 6 pages detailing how food and medicine shortages might cause actual deaths, the country is split down the middle about a trade deal, an MP was shot and killed but the important thing is that somebody said something in the Guardian that I find a bit objectionable.
> 
> And some of those protesters are wearing inferior outerwear.


Don’t worry, it doesn’t take a huge amount of energy to slag off someone’s choice of waterproofs.


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> "And there I was, knelt in Syntagma Square with the tear gas in my eyes, and Varoufakis on my right had just shot his copious load over the arm of my tight leather jacket, and I looked left and pleaded for the youthful masked anarchist to concentrate on finishing the job in (my) hand rather than his Twitter and hurry up before the euro collapsed and I missed my deadline for Channel 4."
> 
> 
> View attachment 183961


Stewart Home just faxed from 1996 asking for a credit


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## chilango (Sep 12, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Don’t worry, it doesn’t take a huge amount of energy to slag off someone’s choice of waterproofs.



I mean, on a serious note, imagine standing on a picket line when the comrade stood besides you has to go home because they're soaked through after their Trespass waterproof jacket starts to leak through its untaped seams?

Or, you're running from the cops during a demo when a member of your affinity group stops because they're getting too sweaty in their "breathable" Trespass waterproof after making the assumption that TresTex must be more or less the same as GoreTex, right?

Or, you're hunkered down observing a target when the cell member on your right's teeth start chattering because the cheap synthetic insulation in his Trespass "puffer" just isn't keeping him warm. The cell member to your left moves to warm him but the rustle of the  stiff face fabric on his Trespass jacket, unlike the softer Pertex Stretch on your Rab, gives away your location to security. That's 15 years in Belmarsh right there.

Am I right?


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 12, 2019)

Now hold on a minute. We best not be too harsh on the bourgeois left.  
Fuck ‘em.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 12, 2019)

Jones and Sarkar no platformed Eddie Dempsey and labelled him a ‘borderline racist’ (whatever that means?) because some comments he made swam against the liberal tide. Is Mason in that camp of cunts?


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## belboid (Sep 12, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Jones and Sarkar no platformed Eddie Dempsey and labelled him a ‘borderline racist’ (whatever that means?) because some comments he made swam against the liberal tide. Is Mason in that camp of cunts?


They didn't 'no platform' him, they chose not to speak on a platform with him on it. He (self-described as 'Blue Labour,' the tosser) has had to apologise at least twice for comments he belatedly realised had racist undertones and repeats racists attacks on asylum seekers ('I dont mind proper asylum seekers, but...).  He's a right-wing shit. But he gives it the 'I'm proper working-class me' so he takes a few buffoons in.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> They didn't 'no platform' him, they chose not to speak on a platform with him on it. He (self-described as 'Blue Labour,' the tosser) has had to apologise at least twice for comments he belatedly realised had racist undertones and repeats racists attacks on asylum seekers ('I dont mind proper asylum seekers, but...).  He's a right-wing shit. But he gives it the 'I'm proper working-class me' so he takes a few buffoons in.



Not sure how he’s ‘blue labour’ given he’s a communist. Perhaps you mean he’s socially conservative whilst economically hard left?
I’m not saying I agree with his politics, I probably don’t. But I’m tired of middle class twats being the spokespeople of ‘the left’ and then attacking voices from trades unionism. A genuine working class bloke.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 12, 2019)

One of their gripes was that he supported leave. Is that a right wing position then?


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## belboid (Sep 12, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not sure how he’s ‘blue labour’ given he’s a communist. Perhaps you mean he’s socially conservative whilst economically hard left?


It was on his twitter.  Gone now, maybe it was a joke. But he's a tosser either way. Who repeats (and has to apologise for) racist shite. 



Magnus McGinty said:


> One of their gripes was that he supported leave. Is that a right wing position then?


No, it was that he spoke on a far-right (Leave Means Leave) platform.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 12, 2019)

I’ve read plenty of what he has to say given I’m in the same union as him and I think you’re talking shite. Unsurprising that you’d be up the arse of Sarkar and Jones though.


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## belboid (Sep 12, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’ve read plenty of what he has to say given I’m in the same union as him and I think you’re talking shite. Unsurprising that you’d be up the arse of Sarkar and Jones though.


I'd trust Matt Wracks opinion over yours any day, and he expelled the fucker.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 12, 2019)

I think the offending comment was:

“too many in the Labour Party have made a calculation that there’s a certain section at the top end of the working class, in alliance with people, they calculate, from ethnic minorities and liberals, that’s enough to get them into power.”

An alliance of the comfortably-off, liberals and ethnic minorities, to deliver power to those “calculating” people who wish to betray the honest working class.”


Ah, well now we have a phrase for working class people that don’t need coaxing away from Yaxley- Lennon - it’s “the top end”.
Last thing we need is more divisive crap from yet another angle. Backing politicians that are vocal about racism isn’t something that only happens if you have more money. And are ethnic minorities off the “honest working class” list? Explain yersel buey.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> I'd trust Matt Wracks opinion over yours any day, and he expelled the fucker.



Expelled who from where?


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## belboid (Sep 12, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Expelled who from where?


Okay, I'm confusing the fucker with Paul Emberry on that one 

Two shades of shite, mind


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> I'd trust Matt Wracks opinion over yours any day, and he expelled the fucker.



Oh dear.....


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> Okay, I'm confusing the fucker with Paul Emberry on that one
> 
> Two shades of shite, mind



You seem to be confusing a lot but let’s leave it there as it’s dragging it all off topic (my fault).


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## Proper Tidy (Sep 12, 2019)

Not a fan of most of Dempsey's politics but he's a different political character to Embery. More red london than blue labour.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not a fan of most of Dempsey's politics but he's a different political character to Embery. More red london than blue labour.



Spot on. But I’d rather have him on the telly making points than those who are fucking him off. They know their politics yet haven’t got a clue.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 12, 2019)

Unless ‘the left’ just means middle class interests.


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## Limerick Red (Sep 12, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Jones and Sarkar no platformed Eddie Dempsey and labelled him a ‘borderline racist’ (whatever that means?) because some comments he made swam against the liberal tide. Is Mason in that camp of cunts?


Yet Sarkar was happy to be on the same panel as Brendan O'Neil a few days later?


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## chilango (Sep 12, 2019)

Personally I'm warming, a little, to the Novara stuff. Yeah, it's very bubbleiscious but it can be quite interesting and engaging.

I was watching Grace Blakeley the other night talking about financialisation. Part of me was thinking "yet another privately educated Oxbridger" but part of me found it surprisingly useful.

I guess that's their job. And they're okay at it.

I'll take them over the red-brown types any day.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 12, 2019)

If you want every bit of analysis to conclude ‘vote labour’ then I guess Novara has its merits. It doesn’t appear to be saying anything else.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 12, 2019)

Mind you, Dempsey May well say the very same thing.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Personally I'm warming, a little, to the Novara stuff. Yeah, it's very bubbleiscious but it can be quite interesting and engaging.



But they don’t really have a dog in the fight, do they? 
The likes of Dempsey and McKenzie do, coming from that background.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 12, 2019)

Limerick Red said:


> Yet Sarkar was happy to be on the same panel as Brendan O'Neil a few days later?



Presumably a paid gig?


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## Proper Tidy (Sep 12, 2019)

I've softened on Jones a lot. Often disagree with him and at times he grates but have basically concluded that he's a decent fella really. The Novara crowd get on my tits, as much cos of the style as the politics, but I have never really listened so might be missing out on some good stuff in there


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## Proper Tidy (Sep 12, 2019)

Also I quite like the way Jones seems to provoke such hatred from some of the worst wankers imaginable


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## rekil (Sep 12, 2019)

According to nutter Gerry Downing who organised Vanessa Beeley's Marx Memorial Library gig, Eddie Dempsey (along with Alex Gordon) was her doorman. Maybe he has a valid workingclasscommunist reason for following Patrick Henningsen on the twitter machine and maybe he just approves of at least some of the 100% loon content. In 2015 he penned a pathetic Morning Star eulogy to Alexei Mozgovoi who was described by seventh bullet on here as 





> A misogynistic petit-bourgeois nationalist who rubbed shoulders with Russian statists like Prokhanov (Red, White, Stalinist and/or fascist so long as there is another iteration of the 'empire') and lesser fascist, kilt-wearing, hipster-tached, Joo-hating twats.


 The latter bit refers to the French and Brazilian fascist members of his unit that were examined in the Ukraine thread here. Novara are just Labour Party courtiers giddy with proximity to power, hence their Williamson fluffing until it was way too late. Bastani is the worst of them however as he has entered the orbit of Beeley's loonosphere.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2019)

Well, here we all are then...none of us everyone's cup of tea yet all desperately looking for ways to build unity/meaningful connections.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 12, 2019)

copliker said:


> According to nutter Gerry Downing who organised Vanessa Beeley's Marx Memorial Library gig, Eddie Dempsey (along with Alex Gordon) was her doorman. Maybe he has a valid workingclasscommunist reason for following Patrick Henningsen on the twitter machine and maybe he just approves of at least some of the 100% loon content. In 2015 he penned a pathetic Morning Star eulogy to Alexei Mozgovoi who was described by seventh bullet on here as  The latter bit refers to the French and Brazilian fascist members of his unit that were examined in the Ukraine thread here. Novara are just Labour Party courtiers giddy with proximity to power, hence their Williamson fluffing until it was way too late. Bastani is the worst of them however as he has entered the orbit of Beeley's loonosphere.


Bastani has aye? Bloody hell.


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## Proper Tidy (Sep 12, 2019)

copliker said:


> According to nutter Gerry Downing who organised Vanessa Beeley's Marx Memorial Library gig, Eddie Dempsey (along with Alex Gordon) was her doorman. Maybe he has a valid workingclasscommunist reason for following Patrick Henningsen on the twitter machine and maybe he just approves of at least some of the 100% loon content. In 2015 he penned a pathetic Morning Star eulogy to Alexei Mozgovoi who was described by seventh bullet on here as  The latter bit refers to the French and Brazilian fascist members of his unit that were examined in the Ukraine thread here. Novara are just Labour Party courtiers giddy with proximity to power, hence their Williamson fluffing until it was way too late. Bastani is the worst of them however as he has entered the orbit of Beeley's loonosphere.


Knew he was an assadist and remember Gordon being very vocal in the russia/ukraine donetsk/luhansk stuff but still, fucking hell


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## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Well, here we all are then...none of us everyone's cup of tea yet all desperately looking for ways to build unity/meaningful connections.


Build unity with neighbours and that surely, not those career lefties.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Build unity with neighbours ...



I already do that and have long done so. 



> ...and that surely, not those career lefties.



Career lefties? Perhaps we need a working definition of what this _insult_ actually means?

I imagine, even before reading your answer that some of _them_ exist within my community too/are neighbours and then I also wonder who here lives anywhere where there isn't someone who could be described as that by someone?


----------



## rekil (Sep 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Knew he was an assadist and remember Gordon being very vocal in the russia/ukraine donetsk/luhansk stuff but still, fucking hell


His Morning Star piece was republished by Russia Insider where the editorial line is this.



			
				Charles Bausman said:
			
		

> Once we begin to scrutinize the staggering fabric of lies that have been spun by Jewish elites over the past 100 years or so, one inevitably arrives at the 'Holocaust', which I am now convinced one can fairly say, based on articles republished on this site over the last year, did not happen. Furthermore, it turns out that almost everything we have been told about WW2 is in fact not true, which has big implications for Russia which has attached so much of her national identity to the legend that she fought and won a just and 'good' war. She is still in search of a 'National Idea', so I suppose this makes the search even more timely.


Having one's name attached to such a site isn't a good look is it.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> I already do that and have long done so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t know what’s with the italics, and I’m out cause I can’t see this exchange going anywhere good.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Sep 12, 2019)

Ugh


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 12, 2019)

indeed


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I don’t know what’s with the italics, and I’m out cause I can’t see this exchange going anywhere good.



Really?  I posted in good faith. I am not angry or out for a row and genuinely think my questions are valid ones. 

The italics were used for emphasis and to stress ambiguity.

If you don't feel we can have this convo without any good coming out of it, fair enough,  however given you and I don't have ongoing beef or owt that also feels weird to me as it seems like a fairly neutral conversation to be having in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Ugh





HoratioCuthbert said:


> indeed



What do you think I am missing?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Sep 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> What do you think I am missing?


Sorry, was in response to copliker's russia insider post, other stuff got posted inbetween


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> What do you think I am missing?


As was mine- in response to what I assumed was a response to coplikers post.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Sorry, was in response to copliker's russia insider post, other stuff got posted inbetween





HoratioCuthbert said:


> As was mine.



Okay, I missed a post.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Really?  I posted in good faith. I am not angry or out for a row and genuinely think my questions are valid ones.
> 
> The italics were used for emphasis and to stress ambiguity.
> 
> If you don't feel we can have this convo without any good coming out of it, fair enough,  however given you and I don't have ongoing beef or owt that also feels weird to me as it seems like a fairly neutral conversation to be having in the grand scheme of things.


True true. I very much doubt I’ll come up with an adequate definition of career lefty which will probably lead to an argument, incidentally had one with someone else about Novara Folk and it was like two people involved in separate exchanges. i’m shit on the language front atm. My bad!


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> I'd trust Matt Wracks opinion over yours any day, and he expelled the fucker.



Liked this post only because Matt Wrack and the FBU are sound as fuck
(he linked, irrelevantly to this thread   )

Major implications for many public sector workers from the above, but that'll have to be another thread ....


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 12, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> Liked this post only because Matt Wrack and the FBU are sound as fuck
> (he linked, irrelevantly to this thread   )
> 
> Major implications for many public sector workers from the above, but that'll have to be another thread ....


He sounds amazing, those were the words of a legend.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Career lefties? Perhaps we need a working definition of what this _insult_ actually means?
> 
> I imagine, even before reading your answer that some of _them_ exist within my community too/are neighbours and then I also wonder who here lives anywhere where there isn't someone who could be described as that by someone?


Can't move here in Northeast Lincs without running into a New Statesman columnist, controversial Twitter Maoist or revolutionary blogger


----------



## NoXion (Sep 13, 2019)

Paul Mason is a liberal internationalist whose "criticism" of capitalism so far that I can tell is that it doesn't take globalization far enough. I understand that he's tweeted in support of NATO more than once, FFS.

There you go, a criticism that isn't based on choice of waterproof gear.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 13, 2019)

chilango said:


> I mean, on a serious note, imagine standing on a picket line when the comrade stood besides you has to go home because they're soaked through after their Trespass waterproof jacket starts to leak through its untaped seams?
> 
> Or, you're running from the cops during a demo when a member of your affinity group stops because they're getting too sweaty in their "breathable" Trespass waterproof after making the assumption that TresTex must be more or less the same as GoreTex, right?
> 
> ...



Oh dear, chilango 

I think you know in your heart of hearts that you need to forgive them their Trespasses


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 13, 2019)

8ball said:


> Oh dear, chilango
> 
> I think you know in your heart of hearts that you need to forgive them their Trespasses


 Lovely stuff


----------



## steveo87 (Sep 13, 2019)

8ball said:


> Oh dear, chilango
> 
> I think you know in your heart of hearts that you need to forgive them their Trespasses


Post of the day.


----------



## rekil (Sep 13, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Bastani has aye? Bloody hell.


Yes, boosting members of Beeley's headbanger circle for some time now. He claimed Craig Murray was "the only person who conducted anything resembling investigative journalism around the Skripal story". All that education. For this.



Spoiler


----------



## Limerick Red (Sep 13, 2019)

copliker said:


> In 2015 he penned a pathetic Morning Star eulogy to Alexei Mozgovoi who was described by seventh bullet on here as  The latter bit refers to the French and Brazilian fascist members of his unit that were examined in the Ukraine thread here. Novara are just Labour Party courtiers giddy with proximity to power, hence their Williamson fluffing until it was way too late. Bastani is the worst of them however as he has entered the orbit of Beeley's loonosphere.



Support for Mozgovoi and the Ghost Battalion is / was fairly unanimous across the entire old / official communist movement. There were monthly convoys organised from Italy. Lots of solidarity events in Spain, France, Germany. This isn't an unprecedented position, so while the ins and outs of the situation in Donesk etc are well debated on here, the position is in common with plenty of communists!


----------



## rekil (Sep 13, 2019)

.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Jones and Sarkar no platformed Eddie Dempsey and labelled him a ‘borderline racist’ (whatever that means?) because some comments he made swam against the liberal tide. Is Mason in that camp of cunts?



Eddie Dempsey has now responded to Owen Jones.

I’ve got my differences politically with him it’s fair to say. But there are some critically important points made by him, a working class trade union steward and militant anti fascist, in response to the abysmal attacks on him by Jones and Novara.

His analysis of the crisis of working class representation, his anti fascist work counterposed with middle class left anti fascism is particularly revealing.

He is also right to say:

“For all this is worth, I think we need to think about what solidarity means in this context. It seems that for a section of unaccountable public figures ‘solidarity’ is a tool of public coercion where everyone is pressed to condemn the new daily heretics. In the real world, solidarity is a weapon that binds workers together, who often have extreme differences of opinion, as workers in our own interests. For many, solidarity is not the ability to be one of the “good people” lining up against anyone that those with a huge internet following gets to say is the “bad people” — it is the guarantor of your children’s school uniform and the monthly rent”.

We also note he warned Owen Jones about the risk of far right attack and offered to sort stewarding support for Jones on demos. In return Jones has been slagging him off for pointing out some entirely obvious points about Jones and his ilk:

A reply to Owen Jones — Keep it comradely.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Eddie Dempsey has now responded to Owen Jones.
> 
> I’ve got my differences politically with him it’s fair to say. But there is critically important writing by a working class trade union steward in response to the abysmal attacks on him by Jones and Novara.
> 
> ...



Cheers for sharing. Like I said earlier, I doubt I agree in full with Dempsey’s politics but it’s difficult to disagree with any of the points he raises in this article.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Cheers for sharing. Like I said earlier, I doubt I agree in full with Dempsey’s politics but it’s difficult to disagree with any of the points he raises in this article.



Yup. I have serious problems with some of his ideas and politics. But his characterisation of Jones and the bubble is spot on.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Eddie Dempsey has now responded to Owen Jones.
> 
> I’ve got my differences politically with him it’s fair to say. But there is critically important writing by a working class trade union steward in response to the abysmal attacks on him by Jones and Novara.
> 
> ...


Dempsey and stewarding. Name me better duo. Oh yeah, him and fasci


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Dempsey and stewarding. Name me better duo. Oh yeah, him and fasci



I knew someone would bring up his ‘other’ stewarding ‘work’. Like I say I don’t agree with him politically and I’m not here to defend his Stalinism.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 17, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Eddie Dempsey has now responded to Owen Jones.
> 
> I’ve got my differences politically with him it’s fair to say. But there is critically important writing by a working class trade union steward in response to the abysmal attacks on him by Jones and Novara.
> 
> ...


It’s a decent reply . When it comes down to it my view is who would you want on a picket line or at work Dempsey or Owen? I didn’t agree with a lot of Scargills wider politics but like Dempsey he delivers when it comes to the crunch about standing up for the W/ class .


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I knew someone would bring up his ‘other’ stewarding ‘work’. Like I say I don’t agree with him politically and I’m not here to defend his Stalinism.



Those wanting to damage him would probably do better concentrating on that critique (like butchers) than this pretence that he’s somehow far right which is laughable.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2019)

As let’s be clear he’s not being attacked for Stalinism. Those politics are fine for Jones. He’s being attacked because he supports Leave, who Jones etc want shut up, and because he’s pointed out some home truths about the middle class left and how they drive the working class away from our politics.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2019)

He's scum. Being working class in itself is just identity politics. Scum.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> It’s a decent reply . When it comes down to it my view is who would you want on a picket line or at work Dempsey or Owen? I didn’t agree with a lot of Scargills wider politics but like Dempsey he delivers when it comes to the crunch about standing up for the W/ class .



There was a photo of ED fanboying Scargill at the TUC last week. It’s a real pity the way Stalinism has led him into some really shit positions.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 17, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> He's scum. Being working class in itself is just identity politics. Scum.


Normally I agree with you but you’ll have to take me through how you come to that view


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 17, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There was a photo of ED fanboying Scargill at the TUC last week. It’s a real pity the way Stalinism has led him into some really shit positions.


Prob is the lack of an independent w/class perspective means that some good militants buy the whole RMT /Stalinist legacy . Decades ago the steward I most learnt off and admired was a CP member , he was horrified and hurt when I joined the SWP.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Prob is the lack of an independent w/class perspective means that some good militants buy the whole RMT /Stalinist legacy . Decades ago the steward I most learnt off and admired was a CP member , he was horrified and hurt when I joined the SWP.



That would certainly have been the case years ago, militants in the TU’s were absorbed into the CP due to proximity. But now?

And I agree with your broader point. Some CP stewards were first class in respect of industrial and representational work.


----------



## chilango (Sep 18, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> He's scum. Being working class in itself is just identity politics. Scum.



There is an awful lot of _reaction_ that is focussed on the projection of cultural signifiers of working-class identity and not on the social relations that produced them.

This does lead down the idpol dead-end.


----------



## RD2003 (Sep 18, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Prob is the lack of an independent w/class perspective means that some good militants buy the whole RMT /Stalinist legacy . Decades ago the steward I most learnt off and admired was a CP member





Smokeandsteam said:


> And I agree with your broader point. Some CP stewards were first class in respect of industrial and representational work.



I used to be a bit perturbed and frustrated by the pragmatism and sometimes cynicism of the typical CP shop steward, of which my granddad on my mother's side was for decades one. It was something they had in common, along with much else, with the Labour right. As I got older, though, I came to understand, and to some extent admire it. I feel it arose from being working class themselves, with the understanding of life it entailed, as opposed to the idealised notion of the class common to the excitable far left-which could, perhaps inevitably, shade in to a different kind of cynicism, bordering on contempt.

The working class will always let you down, except when it doesn't.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 18, 2019)

RD2003 said:


> I used to be a bit perturbed and frustrated by the pragmatism and sometimes cynicism of the typical CP shop steward, of which my granddad on my mother's side was for decades one. It was something they had in common, along with much else, with the Labour right. As I got older, though, I came to understand, and to some extent admire it. I feel it arose from being working class themselves, with the understanding of life it entailed, as opposed to the idealised notion of the class common the excitable far left-which could, perhaps inevitably, shade in to a different kind of cynicism, bordering on contempt.



In my experience - as a young T&G Steward - the CP old timers were, on the left, the best educated, the most strategic and the ones grounded in industrial savvy. The few Trotskyist's and Labour Left's were normally abstract and not of much/any use in concrete industrial situations.

For Stewards who never, to use a phrase I despise, 'go beyond trade union consciousness' there was no choice as to who would hold sway and who was best placed to engage management and right wing full time officers.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 19, 2019)

Mason promoting Lewis and Starmer AGAIN, and further emboldening the Blairites attempt to push Labour over the remain cliff next week. Mason’s political analysis was often shaky but came from a good place but this is straight out cheerleading of the Labour right:


----------



## Riklet (Sep 20, 2019)

I am conflicted.  He wrote some cracking books and did some very good reporting.  I would like to think he is a well-meaning comrade who has lost his way a bit, not just a member of the media elite comentariat.  When he came to Seville I messaged him as was living there - but he had already found some really amazing social projects, squats and places to go... he does his research. Was impressed by his economics reporting back in the day, defo.

I dispair online sometimes with his more wild recent conclusions and his apparent political ferver burn-out thing and maybe he is indeed going through a hard time. Calling him mad or speculating about additions etc is definitely a bit distateful IMO.  I do think it's important people can be critical and honest though, given how much importance and traction his views are given.  Some of his stuff needs challenging - especially when it claims to be in the name of progressive politics but doesn't seem based in anything very much.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 20, 2019)

The latest ‘think’ from a ‘public intellectual’. 

I went over to the protest in Birmingham today which was vibrant and colourful. 

Is the need for a new economy and just transition built around high pay green jobs critically important both for post industrial communities and the planet? Yes. 

Is it helpful to freeze the processes at work in time and declare marches ‘the first day of the 21st century’ meaningful in any sense? No


----------



## treelover (Sep 20, 2019)

I can't stand his Assadism, but he(Ed) really does care about basic issues, I would like to see him on QT. He seems to have a fair bit of genuine working class leftist support on hos twitter page.

maybe he needs his own thread.


----------



## treelover (Sep 20, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The latest ‘think’ from a ‘public intellectual’.
> 
> I went over to the protest in Birmingham today which was vibrant and colourful.
> 
> ...





AS we wait for another disabled and sick person to cut their throat due to having no money whatsover, more like the 19th C.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 20, 2019)

treelover said:


> I can't stand his Assadism, but he(Ed) really does care about basic issues, I would like to see him on QT. He seems to have a fair bit of genuine working class leftist support on hos twitter page.
> 
> maybe he needs his own thread.


Aye backing a guy that’s been a doorman for our resident holocaust deniers. Can’t see where that would go wrong for the working class. 
And no, he doesn’t need his own thread. We’re all more than capable of talking about the issues ourselves, we don’t need saving.


----------



## treelover (Sep 20, 2019)

He also offered to steward when Owen was speaking, etc, 

where are all these working class people 'with visiblity' 

notice Glenn Jenkins of Exodus follows him


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 20, 2019)

No idea who that is. 
I wasn’t aware we were trying to win a popularity contest, I thought socialism was about society and that.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 20, 2019)

treelover said:


> He also offered to steward when Owen was speaking, etc,
> 
> where are all these working class people 'with visiblity'
> 
> notice Glenn Jenkins of Exodus follows him


And even Owen has told him to fuck off


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 20, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> As let’s be clear he’s not being attacked for Stalinism. Those politics are fine for Jones.



That's exactly what he's being attacked for. Jones and the CPB have a tetchy relationship at best, Soc-dem cat and tankie dogs. Dempsey's quite right that Jones will look the other way on bad politics when it suits him and go for the throat when he judges it useful/winnable. As will Dempsey. Tbh this whole thing has been like watching a franchise reboot on a cracked screen.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 20, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> That's exactly what he's being attacked for. Jones and the CPB have a tetchy relationship at best, Soc-dem cat and tankie dogs. Dempsey's quite right that Jones will look the other way on bad politics when it suits him and go for the throat when he judges it useful. As will Dempsey. Tbh this whole thing has been like watching a franchise reboot on a cracked screen.



I can’t say I’ve seen ED ‘look the other way’ but I’ll take your word for it. ‘Soc-dem cat and tankie dogs’ is a cracking line by the way.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 20, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> *Aye backing a guy that’s been a doorman for our resident holocaust deniers.* Can’t see where that would go wrong for the working class.
> And no, he doesn’t need his own thread. We’re all more than capable of talking about the issues ourselves, we don’t need saving.



Outside of the Beeley gig @ Marx Memorial talk, which few of us would have known had anything to do with Holocaust Denial / Assadism etc at the time ( as the RMT stewards wouldnt have ) , not sure Dempsey has any form whatsoever on this front ?

But has a well known record of physically opposing fascism on the streets, alongside union comrades ....( which am sure you do as well, obvs  )


----------



## 8ball (Sep 20, 2019)

Mad Paul Mason.
Belgium’s famous painter.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 20, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Outside of the Beeley gig @ Marx Memorial talk, which few of us would have known had anything to do with Holocaust Denial / Assadism etc at the time ( as the RMT stewards wouldnt have ) , not sure Dempsey has any form whatsoever on this front ?
> 
> But has a well known record of physically opposing fascism on the streets, alongside union comrades ....( which am sure you do as well, obvs  )


No I don’t, I’m from Inverness ffs.  I was a couple of years in London but mostly existing in a 4 hour round trip to a psychiatric ward I was working in. On that note, I’ve been a carer my whole life so a stranger to the picket line too. 
But people like me aren’t exempt from the conversation, so kindly fuck off. Go and have a pint with Basto eh


----------



## 8ball (Sep 20, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> No I don’t, I’m from Inverness ffs...



I didn’t know that, but somehow read the post right from the start in a broad Inverness accent.

Spooky.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 20, 2019)

8ball said:


> I didn’t know that, but somehow read the post right from the start in a broad Inverness accent.
> 
> Spooky.


That’s nice. I thought I had lost it up here, maybe there’s hope!


----------



## cantsin (Sep 20, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> No I don’t, I’m from Inverness ffs.  I was a couple of years in London but mostly existing in a 4 hour round trip to a psychiatric ward I was working in. On that note, I’ve been a carer my whole life so a stranger to the picket line too.
> But people like me aren’t exempt from the conversation, so kindly fuck off.



Fair enough, but do you think as someone with apparently so little direct connection to Dempsey, his + RMTs stewarding of the Beeley meet in 2015, physical force anti fascism in general, you might be a bit more considered / measured re: your thoughts / proclaimations on this subject ?  ( Will ignore the Basto gubbins... am presuming yr not actually this sh*te normally / it's Fri night etc )


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 20, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Fair enough, but do you think as someone with apparently so little direct connection to Dempsey, his + RMTs stewarding of the Beeley meet in 2015, physical force anti fascism in general, you might be a bit more considered / measured re: your thoughts / proclaimations on this subject ?  ( Will ignore the Basto gubbins... am presuming yr not actually this sh*te normally / it's Fri night etc )


No


----------



## Proper Tidy (Sep 20, 2019)

I really don't like this idea that because somebody has participated in something deemed worthy eg 'physical force anti fascism' (card carrying) that means any really shit part of their politics are beyond reproach or something. Fuck that.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 20, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> No



ok, you keep on keepin on spraying this stuff around on the internetz, and I guess ED will carry on with his Trade Union / antifa type stuff, we'll all get there in the end eh


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 20, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Fair enough, but do you think as someone with apparently so little direct connection to Dempsey, his + RMTs stewarding of the Beeley meet in 2015, physical force anti fascism in general, you might be a bit more considered / measured re: your thoughts / proclaimations on this subject ?  ( Will ignore the Basto gubbins... am presuming yr not actually this sh*te normally / it's Fri night etc )


I’ve been ferrying aid from Orkney to Inverness and Edinburgh for refugees since 2015. I’m hardly going to do that and also ignore any of the fucking shite that has forced refugees flee here- (my local council -Orkney- has housed 2 Syrian refugee families here partly as a response to 200 plus people coming out to protest against our councils inaction on the subject, which was organised by me and my mate)
Yeah I’ve got an opinion on the subject informed by the people Beeley is smearing. Bombings, chemical attacks, all manner of atrocities. 
Should I outsource myself to fucking London for 2 years to fight fascists and then come back and say something?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 20, 2019)

I can’t anyway; I’m a single mother. Fuck you and your hardman credential shite honestly.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 20, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I can’t anyway; I’m a single mother. Fuck you and your hardman credential shite honestly.



Have zero credentials here, and am claiming less ... just not casting aspersions on proactive trade unionists’  credentials from behind my keyboard ( or pro refugee activists either )


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 20, 2019)

cantsin said:


> ok, you keep on keepin on spraying this stuff around on the internetz, and I guess ED will carry on with his Trade Union / antifa type stuff, we'll all get there in the end eh


What’s health and care after all, no one would notice if we all disappeared


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 20, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Have zero credentials here, and am claiming less ... just not casting aspersions on proactive trade unionists’  credentials from behind my keyboard ( or pro refugee activists either )


I have a keyboard, I do live beyond it. 
Your politics is pure keyboard stuff, if you are frustrated with that, live beyond it yourself. I am not the enemy here.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 20, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Have zero credentials here, and am claiming less ... just not casting aspersions on proactive trade unionists’  credentials from behind my keyboard ( or pro refugee activists either )


I have a lot of time for unions and that but I also have time for the health service despite knowing it also seems to a welcoming place for cunts that need weeding out. And we do usually. Fear us!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 21, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Have zero credentials here, and am claiming less ... just not casting aspersions on proactive trade unionists’  credentials from behind my keyboard ( or pro refugee activists either )


I’m so sorry, cantsin. I was quite pished, and on a sexist note- due on. An absolutely explosive concoction. 
I’ll tell you about me anti-fascist creds- in London, this tall coked up skin head(I don’t know if he was an actual skinhead but he had skin for a head) was shouting at this guy standing next to calling him an Eastern European cunt. I bravely waded in and shouted and swore back at him. God was kind to me that night because the guy was so coked up that a 7 and a half stone wee lass like I was at the time was not big news when he was fixated on his target. Thank the lord, because what use would I have been in a fight? Not much cantsin, not much.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 22, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I’m so sorry, cantsin. I was quite pished, and on a sexist note- due on. An absolutely explosive concoction.
> I’ll tell you about me anti-fascist creds- in London, this tall coked up skin head(I don’t know if he was an actual skinhead but he had skin for a head) was shouting at this guy standing next to calling him an Eastern European cunt. I bravely waded in and shouted and swore back at him. God was kind to me that night because the guy was so coked up that a 7 and a half stone wee lass like I was at the time was not big news when he was fixated on his target. Thank the lord, because what use would I have been in a fight? Not much cantsin, not much.



lolz, no problem, pissed and due on is fair o'l combo am sure, and of course ED is a divisive figure,( and his lot are off their f*cking headz at times - Red London is a farce )


----------



## killer b (Sep 24, 2019)

Paul. Come on now.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Sep 24, 2019)

Lol. Mason bouncing around in an oversized union jack bowler is it


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 24, 2019)

He’s now calling for a delay to the GE and an interim government led by Corbyn or someone else. He’s finally there.


----------



## rekil (Sep 24, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Fair enough, but do you think as someone with apparently so little direct connection to Dempsey, his + RMTs stewarding of the Beeley meet in 2015, physical force anti fascism in general, you might be a bit more considered / measured re: your thoughts / proclaimations on this subject ?


He was on a club redbrown holiday in Ukraine in 2015. Beeley doorman gig was 2017. On top of all her other loonosphere commitments, Beeley has been involved with Alain Soral and his E&R group. Clement Meric was murdered by followers of Serge Ayoub, Soral's mate. Soral spent years mocking Meric after the murder in fact. He was still doing so the day after the verdict in a vid with Ayoub. Feel free to do some antifascism about that at some point Eddie.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 25, 2019)

copliker said:


> He was on a club redbrown holiday in Ukraine in 2015. Beeley doorman gig was 2017. On top of all her other loonosphere commitments, Beeley has been involved with Alain Soral and his E&R group. Clement Meric was murdered by followers of Serge Ayoub, Soral's mate. Soral spent years mocking Meric after the murder in fact. He was still doing so the day after the verdict in a vid with Ayoub. Feel free to do some antifascism about that at some point Eddie.



What's Club RedBrown?


----------



## rekil (Sep 25, 2019)

Dom Traynor said:


> What's Club RedBrown?


Banda Bassotti playing bella ciao for nazis, orthodox-monarchists, duginists, nazbols and more or less all shades of russian nationalism.



Spoiler


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 25, 2019)

Paul Mason (V.1)


----------



## belboid (Sep 26, 2019)

hmm..




			
				Popbitch said:
			
		

> The best spurious rumour we heard going round the Labour conference this week? That Paul Mason took a shit in a fountain outside the TWT tent.


----------



## kropotkin (Sep 26, 2019)

I choose to believe that


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 29, 2019)

He’s now going to do daily video updates for the next 20 days whilst “Boris Johnson attempts to destroy British democracy”



The advice to us all thus far is get off Facebook and join a political party (but not the Tories).


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 29, 2019)

He really has gone down the rabbit hole. I mean I did not agree with his support for Remain, Labourism or "popular front" but there was at least some sort of logic and coherence there. Now he's a lick of paint away from a tin foil hat.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> He’s now going to do daily video updates for the next 20 days whilst “Boris Johnson attempts to destroy British democracy”
> 
> 
> 
> The advice to us all thus far is get off Facebook and join a political party (but not the Tories).



One tear away.

Don't do it paul.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2019)

*wrong thread*


----------



## Proper Tidy (Sep 29, 2019)

Episode 2 - Paul is joined by his friend Mr Coconut Head to discuss the benefits of drinking wee


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2019)

i love kathy cook and alan wells now


----------



## Wilf (Sep 30, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> He really has gone down the rabbit hole. I mean I did not agree with his support for Remain, Labourism or "popular front" but there was at least some sort of logic and coherence there. Now he's a lick of paint away from a tin foil hat.


Yeah, it's really sad. I like the bloke, I introduced a talk he did a few years back and he seemed sound. Didn't he used to do active antifascist work at one point (though maybe not antifa?)? He's undoubtedly had a degree of celebrity for a while, but linked to his work/ideas, whereas now it seems to be more directly about himself.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, it's really sad. I like the bloke, I introduced a talk he did a few years back and he seemed sound. Didn't he used to do active antifascist work at one point (though maybe not antifa?)? He's undoubtedly had a degree of celebrity for a while, but linked to his work/ideas, whereas now it seems to be more directly about himself.


I agree, whatever disagreements I had with his politics he was coming from the right place.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 30, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Episode 2 - Paul is joined by his friend Mr Coconut Head to discuss the benefits of drinking wee


When I read your posts, I hear them in Mason's voice. Just thought you'd like to know.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2019)

I blame adam curtis.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 1, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> I blame adam curtis.


To be fair, they both have very reasonable voices.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 11, 2019)

An important corrective for those who believe Mason is basically sound and coming from the right place.

When your politics leads to you demonising ordinary people, and holding them accountable for the threats made and profit planning decisions of multi-nationals, then you have to conclude that those politics are damaged beyond repair and indicative of a fundamental shift in previous thinking:


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 11, 2019)

Ironic too that under the headline he smugly shares, that in the deindustrialised areas of despair of Sunderland - created under the neo-liberalism he demands we defend - another young person has their life snatched away.

fucking sickening


----------



## killer b (Oct 11, 2019)

You're reading a lot into one tweet there. Wheres the demonisation?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> You're reading a lot into one tweet there. Wheres the demonisation?



I don’t think I do. Mason is clearly blaming leave voters, like those in Sunderland, for the threats being made by Nissan. That’s he’s wrong, on multiple levels should go without saying, a quick glance at what has happened to Sunderland over the last 40 years is enough. That he glides over why Nissan came here is historically embarrassing for an alleged intellectual. 

But, this is the thing. When did ‘the left’ start blaming ordinary people for the decisions of the elite? It’s dangerous ground he’s treading on. We all know he wants socialism without the working class.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> You're reading a lot into one tweet there. Wheres the demonisation?


It is a shitty tweet. Sunderland had a (fairly big) leave majority, in common with every (I think) industrial/post industrial area. It's no different to the usual wales/cornwall/yorkshire/NE you voted leave you idiots bollocks. It also ignores capital using opportunity presented by brexit scapegoat which is odd for somebody coming from a marxist or marxian position


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> It is a shitty tweet. Sunderland had a (fairly big) leave majority, in common with every (I think) industrial/post industrial area. It's no different to the usual wales/cornwall/yorkshire/NE you voted leave you idiots bollocks. It also ignores capital using opportunity presented by brexit scapegoat which is odd for somebody coming from a marxist or marxian position



It does all of that, but it also implicitly suggests that leave has generated capital flight, offshoring and reckless corporate behaviour. It then blames ordinary people for it. This is disorientating bollocks. He is a fucking disgrace.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Oct 11, 2019)

Mason is right though as much as it might be irritating to Lexit nuts


----------



## sihhi (Oct 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> But, this is the thing. When did ‘the left’ start blaming ordinary people for the decisions of the elite?



It's grotesque.


----------



## LDC (Oct 11, 2019)

Dom Traynor said:


> Mason is right though as much as it might be irritating to Lexit nuts



What do you mean he's right? He was asking a question in a way that not very subtly hinted that this is the fault of leave voters? That's a very nasty and politically dodgy road to start going down.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 11, 2019)

Dom Traynor said:


> Mason is right though as much as it might be irritating to Lexit nuts


No he's not, not unless you take the idiotic position that voters are responsible for the actions of parties/governments they vote for. In which case Labour voters are responsible for the attacks on striking workers in Birmingham, Green voters are responsible for strike breaking, LD voters are responsible for the bedroom tax, attacks on benefits etc


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2019)

i find that ignoring everything paul mason says is far better than wasting time discussing him


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> No he's not, not unless you take the idiotic position that voters are responsible for the actions of parties/governments they vote for. In which case Labour voters are responsible for the attacks on striking workers in Birmingham, Green voters are responsible for strike breaking, LD voters are responsible for the bedroom tax, attacks on benefits etc


i don't know about responsible for but i would say bear at least some of the blame for, for instance people who voted tory in 1987 bearing at least some of the blame for the poll tax. voters enable politicians.


----------



## LDC (Oct 11, 2019)

I saw him in the flesh in London this week. He's looks much smaller in real life, reckon he wouldn't be a hard fight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I saw him in the flesh in London this week. He's looks much smaller in real life, reckon he wouldn't be a hard fight.


i daresay he'd press charges


----------



## LDC (Oct 11, 2019)

My tongue was firmly in my cheek before this spirals into some drama.


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> An important corrective for those who believe Mason is basically sound and coming from the right place.
> 
> When your politics leads to you demonising ordinary people, and holding them accountable for the threats made and profit planning decisions of multi-nationals, then you have to conclude that those politics are damaged beyond repair and indicative of a fundamental shift in previous thinking:



you really should shut up and just copy and paste from the big boys if this is all you can manage by yourself. 

Laughable


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> you really should shut up and just copy and paste from the big boys if this is all you can manage by yourself.
> 
> Laughable



Are you Paul Mason? Or just in need of the daily lie down?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 11, 2019)

Dom Traynor said:


> Mason is right though as much as it might be irritating to Lexit nuts



He's not though is he.

Mass deindustrialisation has occurred here, and in much of Europe, under membership of the EU. These were decisions made by capital to move money and work to where they could maximise profits.  

If we remain in the EU this will be attractive to the profit model of some forms of capital until it isn't at which point they will go. It won't be to others however. . 

The two fundamental points are that firstly, ordinary people have not been and are not responsible for the decisions made by capital and its hugely misleading to pretend they are. The second is that Mason does/should know this and the fact he posted this is therefore revolting.		 

'Lexit nuts' - classy.


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Are you Paul Mason? Or just in need of the daily lie down?


No, I'm just someone who can read without inserting several thousand of my own assumptions into what i'm reading.  As killerb pouts out, there is no 'demonisation' there, its a pretty straight forward, and perfectly  valid, point, even if it is a bit crassly phrased. 'Did you vote for this' is a common thing to ask after any vote.  It doesn't blame the voter (although _you _certainly seem to do that, ironically) so all your faux outrage is misplaced. Your support for no deal is blinding you to the fact that that choice is gonna have some pretty shit consequences for working-class people.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> Your support for no deal is blinding you to the fact that that choice is gonna have some pretty shit consequences for working-class people.



Obviously true but then remain winning and more of the same would have had shit consequences for working class people. As evidenced by post industrial areas over last few decades. Every direction has shit consequences for working class people because it isn't working class people in control. The emphasis placed on those people as culpable for the consequences that will detrimentally effect them is, however you cut it, snide and indicative of really shit politics


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> No, I'm just someone who can read without inserting several thousand of my own assumptions into what i'm reading.  As killerb pouts out, there is no 'demonisation' there, its a pretty straight forward, and perfectly  valid, point, even if it is a bit crassly phrased. 'Did you vote for this' is a common thing to ask after any vote.  It doesn't blame the voter (although _you _certainly seem to do that, ironically) so all your faux outrage is misplaced. Your support for no deal is blinding you to the fact that that choice is gonna have some pretty shit consequences for working-class people.



Straightforward, perfectly valid and crass....okay....  

The consequences of capital for the people of Sunderland, have been and are, already pretty shit if you hadn't noticed. Only 4 weeks ago you were seeking to dismiss academic research conducted in the North East on why people voted leave.  

As for assumptions, you've made a pretty big one. Par for the course with you.


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Obviously true but then remain winning and more of the same would have had shit consequences for working class people. As evidenced by post industrial areas over last few decades. Every direction has shit consequences for working class people because it isn't working class people in control. The emphasis placed on those people as culpable for the consequences that will detrimentally effect them is, however you cut it, snide and indicative of really shit politics


Except the only person placing that emphasis is smokeandsteam, not Paul Mason.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> Except the only person placing that emphasis is smokeandsteam, not Paul Mason.



Fuck off Belboid. I thought you were better than this. 

You know full well what Mason was doing was dog whistling to his remainiac mates.


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Straightforward, perfectly valid and crass....okay....
> 
> The consequences of capital for the people of Sunderland, have been and are, already pretty shit if you hadn't noticed. Only 4 weeks ago you were seeking to dismiss academic research conducted in the North East on why people voted leave.
> 
> As for assumptions, you've made a pretty big one. Par for the course with you.


You dont really want to go back to that do you?  The small survey of a bunch of mates, all white, all 45+ and three-quarter male. For the reasons I stated at length there (and which you ignored) that survey is reasonably valid, but only of a rather partial cross-section of the class. 

And, yes,of course 'the consequences of capital' are bad for Sunderland, that's capital, and will be whether we leave the EU or not.  Sometimes it can be shitter than other times though. And we should try and avoid those consequences.


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Fuck off Belboid. I thought you were better than this.
> 
> You know full well what Mason was doing was dog whistling to his remainiac mates.


Fuck off right back. I know you're not any better than this.   You're just a shit Eddie Dempsey.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> You dont really want to go back to that do you?  The small survey of a bunch of mates, all white, all 45+ and three-quarter male. For the reasons I stated at length there (and which you ignored) that survey is reasonably valid, but only of a rather partial cross-section of the class.
> 
> And, yes,of course 'the consequences of capital' are bad for Sunderland, that's capital, and will be whether we leave the EU or not.  Sometimes it can be shitter than other times though. And we should try and avoid those consequences.



We will have to keep going back to it because you continue to mischaracterize it. As I pointed out, as the authors pointed out the research _builds on and is situated within _a much larger and ongoing body of work. 

Your second point is just bollocks. Defence of the status quo bollocks in fact.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> Fuck off right back. I know you're not any better than this.   You're just a shit Eddie Dempsey.



Grow the fuck up.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> Except the only person placing that emphasis is smokeandsteam, not Paul Mason.


The emphasis is explicit in his tweet though. The electorate not the politicians. That's what his tweet says.


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We will have to keep going back to it because you continue to mischaracterize it. As I pointed out, as the authors pointed out the research _builds on and is situated within _a much larger and ongoing body of work.
> 
> 
> Your second point is just bollocks. Defence of the status quo bollocks in fact.


Lol. It’s the only bit you’ve quoted, so own it.

and opposing no deal isn’t defending the status quo any more than your support for it is supporting the Tory right.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> Except the only person placing that emphasis is smokeandsteam, not Paul Mason.



Mason definitely is being a bit of a bellend. No point claiming he isn't.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 11, 2019)

So who's fault was it when industries abandoned communities before Brexit? How do we know that they're not just using another PR-friendly excuse this time round?


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

NoXion said:


> So who's fault was it when industries abandoned communities before Brexit? How do we know that they're not just using another PR-friendly excuse this time round?


If a no deal brexit _doesn't_ affect how capital behaves, why are we arsed about it?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> If a no deal brexit _doesn't_ affect how capital behaves, why are we arsed about it?



Come on, you brought up no deal brexit, no one else was talking about it. You raised the criticism of Smokeandsteam's comments, now you have to respond to what people are saying.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 11, 2019)

Can't you both carry on telling each other to fuck off? I found it quite compelling. Like a young one's episode dragged into Brexit land.


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Come on, you brought up no deal brexit, no one else was talking about it. You raised the criticism of Smokeandsteam's comments, now you have to respond to what people are saying.


eh? It is at the heart of all these conversations, we can't pretend that it isn't. It is absolutely _explicitly _behind the Nissan statement that kicked off this bit of discussion. So, no, I didn't bring it up, it is always there.


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Can't you both carry on telling each other to fuck off? I found it quite compelling. Like a young one's episode dragged into Brexit land.


Darling fascist bully boy. Give me some more brexit you bastard.  May the seeds of your capital be fruitful in the belly of your offshore tax haven.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> eh? It is at the heart of all these conversations, we can't pretend that it isn't. It is absolutely _explicitly _behind the Nissan statement that kicked off this bit of discussion. So, no, I didn't bring it up, it is always there.



Er. What? 

It's not really is it? Because it isn't a realistic possibility. There is not going to be a 'no deal' Brexit. 

In any case, the discussion isn't about that. It is about how Mason responded to Nissan announcing job cuts, aiming his comments directly at leave voters. We are talking about Mason, not about Nissan. You are projecting what you want the discussion to be about, but that isn't what we are talking about.


----------



## chilango (Oct 11, 2019)

A more charitable interpretation is that Mason is using this to try and drive a wedge between leave voters and the leave government.

Hard to do that in a one sentence tweet mind.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 11, 2019)

chilango said:


> A more charitable interpretation is that Mason is using this to try and drive a wedge between leave voters and the leave government.
> 
> Hard to do that in a one sentence tweet mind.


Yeah maybe. Although it would be easy to say 'leave voters voted for agency, not for this' or something


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Er. What?
> 
> It's not really is it? Because it isn't a realistic possibility. There is not going to be a 'no deal' Brexit.


Seriously? There is no prospect of no deal? Have you been in hiding for the last six months?



> In any case, the discussion isn't about that. It is about how Mason responded to Nissan announcing job cuts, aiming his comments directly at leave voters. We are talking about Mason, not about Nissan. You are projecting what you want the discussion to be about, but that isn't what we are talking about.


No, I was responding to a point about what and why Nissan were dong something, as well as Mason's comment.

I certainly wouldn't have tweeted in the same way - as it was bound to be interpreted by some in just the way S&S took it.  But there's still nothing wrong in principle in saying 'did you vote for this?'


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> Seriously? There is no prospect of no deal? Have you been in hiding for the last six months?
> 
> 
> No, I was responding to a point about what and why Nissan were dong something, as well as Mason's comment.
> ...



No, there is no prospect of no deal. That is not what any significant section of capital wants. Keep up. 

If you know how that tweet would be understood, are you saying that Mason is too stupid to know how that tweet would be understood or that he just doesn't care/wants it to be interpreted that way?


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> No, there is no prospect of no deal. That is not what any significant section of capital wants. Keep up.


Dude, I am doing. If you seriously think there is no chance of no deal, you are the only person left alive believing that. The possibility of a deal is no more than 20% if you ask me.



> If you know how that tweet would be understood, are you saying that Mason is too stupid to know how that tweet would be understood or that he just doesn't care/wants it to be interpreted that way?


He was daft.  But no dafter than those who chose to believe he is 'demonising' leave voters. And less daft than those who think there is no prospect of no deal.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 11, 2019)

I dunno about there being no prospect of no deal, but 20% chance of a deal, do me a favour. Most likely course is extension, election, deal, surely


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I dunno about there being no prospect of no deal, but 20% chance of a deal, do me a favour. Most likely course is extension, election, deal, surely


Definitely. But if belboid means less than 20% chance of a deal before the deadline then I'd probably agree.

I haven't really got a clue though


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I dunno about there being no prospect of no deal, but 20% chance of a deal, do me a favour. Most likely course is extension, election, deal, surely


Johnson undoubtedly feels he can get around the Benn Bill. Fuck knows how, but I wouldn't place too great a hope in it stopping him doing what he wants. Hopefully, it will be delay and election, and labour win it. I suppose the tories could win a big majority that means they can totally ignore the DUP and push some other deal through. Tho I think no deal would still be more likely under them. Maybe it gets as high as 35-40% chance of a deal, in the medium term, but the chances of us leaving on October 31 with one, slim slim slim.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> Johnson undoubtedly feels he can get around the Benn Bill. Fuck knows how, but I wouldn't place too great a hope in it stopping him doing what he wants. Hopefully, it will be delay and election, and labour win it. I suppose the tories could win a big majority that means they can totally ignore the DUP and push some other deal through. Tho I think no deal would still be more likely under them. Maybe it gets as high as 35-40% chance of a deal, in the medium term, but the chances of us leaving on October 31 with one, slim slim slim.


Yeah fair enough about end of october, don't think much chance of a deal by then, I don't buy that tories actually looking for way round extension though. It's just play fighting


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> Dude, I am doing. If you seriously think there is no chance of no deal, you are the only person left alive believing that. The possibility of a deal is no more than 20% if you ask me.



I don't believe I am the only person alive who believes no deal will not happen, but if that is the case then clearly I am an intellectual god surrounded by febrile minds. Your analysis of course, not mine. I think the possibility of a deal (with a customs union in the Irish sea) is much higher than 20% but I'd put the chances of no deal around 0.001%.




belboid said:


> .
> 
> 
> He was daft.



So... Mason said something really stupid? 




belboid said:


> Johnson undoubtedly feels he can get around the Benn Bill. Fuck knows how, but I wouldn't place too great a hope in it stopping him doing what he wants.



Yeah, you're just being daft now. Are you parodying Mason?


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I don't believe I am the only person alive who believes no deal will not happen, but if that is the case then clearly I am an intellectual god surrounded by febrile minds. Your analysis of course, not mine. I think the possibility of a deal (with a customs union in the Irish sea) is much higher than 20% but I'd put the chances of no deal around 0.001%.


agreed a sea based customs unions is the most likely/only way a deal can be reached.  I just dont see the DUP agreeing to it. Of course they are unprincipled shits who qwould do anything for a few billion,but I still dont see it.  Still, only a few days to wit to find out!



> So... Mason said something really stupid?


There is quite a difference between daft and really stupid. eg, saying there is a 20% chance of a deal may be described as daft, but saying there is no chance of no deal is really stupid.



> you're just being daft now. Are you parodying Mason?


Are you saying he cant get around the Benn Bill?


----------



## JimW (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> Are you saying he cant get around the Benn Bill?


They do look quite intimidating in their hard hats and entrenched position


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> agreed a sea based customs unions is the most likely/only way a deal can be reached.  I just dont see the DUP agreeing to it. Of course they are unprincipled shits who qwould do anything for a few billion,but I still dont see it.  Still, only a few days to wit to find out!
> 
> 
> There is quite a difference between daft and really stupid. eg, saying there is a 20% chance of a deal may be described as daft, but saying there is no chance of no deal is really stupid.
> ...



Johnson has no majority with the DUP so they are meaningless now. 

Why would he get around the Benn Bill? He doesn't want No Deal.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Oct 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He's not though is he.
> 
> Mass deindustrialisation has occurred here, and in much of Europe, under membership of the EU. These were decisions made by capital to move money and work to where they could maximise profits.
> 
> ...



Nah. 

The fact is that Brexit is going to make those Nissan Workers lives worse than if Brexit hadn't happened and yet many of them voted for it. I know because I lived in the North East and talked to loads of them around referendum time. They didn't however vote to worsen their lives which is the point Mason makes. 

Lexit is the silliest political position in some years.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 12, 2019)

Dom Traynor said:


> Nah.
> 
> The fact is that Brexit is going to make those Nissan Workers lives worse than if Brexit hadn't happened and yet many of them voted for it. I know because I lived in the North East and talked to loads of them around referendum time. They didn't however vote to worsen their lives which is the point Mason makes.
> 
> Lexit is the silliest political position in some years.



You're the only person on the thread using the word Lexit.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 12, 2019)

Dom Traynor said:


> Nah.
> 
> The fact is that Brexit is going to make those Nissan Workers lives worse than if Brexit hadn't happened and yet many of them voted for it. I know because I lived in the North East and talked to loads of them around referendum time. They didn't however vote to worsen their lives which is the point Mason makes.
> 
> Lexit is the silliest political position in some years.



That is the exact _opposite _of the point Mason is making.

‘Lexit’ can’t be the silliest political position in some years by the way, otherwise you’d support it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 20, 2019)

Mason really seems to have developed a distasteful habit of using Brexit to attack working class people who don’t agree with him. Put another way his focus is on lexit supporters, like Ronnie Campbell who’ve backed Corbyn long before Mason, rather than right wing brexiteers. The cloth cap performative video is distributing....


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 20, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Mason really seems to have developed a distasteful habit of using Brexit to attack working class people who don’t agree with him. Put another way his focus is on lexit supporters, like Ronnie Campbell who’ve backed Corbyn long before Mason, rather than right wing brexiteers. The cloth cap performative video is distributing....


----------



## treelover (Oct 20, 2019)

Benedict of Harrow and XR seems to like them.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 20, 2019)

Mason’s attack on Campbell was particularly daft and unpleasant. I watched the whole piece and Mason seemed agitated throughout. He needs to control himself or zip it.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 21, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Mason really seems to have developed a distasteful habit of using Brexit to attack working class people who don’t agree with him. Put another way his focus is on lexit supporters, like Ronnie Campbell who’ve backed Corbyn long before Mason, rather than right wing brexiteers. The cloth cap performative video is distributing....




This was one of the comments in response to the Mason clip (referring to Campbell):



> He sounded as if his mind was going. These MPs should be tested as they get older to check if they are medically sound to make decisions.



FFS, we've had commentators arguing that voters should take a  test on the role of the EU before voting and now this.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> FFS, we've had commentators arguing that voters should take a  test on the role of the EU before voting and now this.



That Mason has consciously sought out Campbell for attack speaks volumes about him. He is a deeply unpleasant snob with a barely suppressed loathing of working class people. From referring to the voters of Stoke as 'the sort of people who's steal your bike' to cheering on Nissan's threats to the people of Sunderland to the attempted demonisation of a working class left MP there is a revolting pattern emerging here.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 21, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That Mason has consciously sought out Campbell for attack speaks volumes about him. He is a deeply unpleasant snob with a barely suppressed loathing of working class people. From referring to the voters of Stoke as 'the sort of people who's steal your bike' to cheering on Nissan's threats to the people of Sunderland to the attempted demonisation of a working class left MP there is a revolting pattern emerging here.


Actually using the phrase LMF is quite disturbing, tbh.
2 things; I'm really not sure that Mason knows the origin of the phrase or how he feels it's appropriate to attempt to use it as a derogatory descriptor of someone 'rebelling' against the whip of his own party.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 21, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Actually using the phrase LMF is quite disturbing, tbh.
> 2 things; I'm really not sure that Mason knows the origin of the phrase or how he feels it's appropriate to attempt to use it as a derogatory descriptor of someone 'rebelling' against the whip of his own party.


What's LMF?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> What's LMF?



Lick My Fanny?
Lost My Fone?
Lorentz My Fermions?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 21, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> What's LMF?


LMF


----------



## chilango (Oct 21, 2019)

brogdale said:


> LMF



You're unbelievable.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 21, 2019)

Didn't they burn a million quid?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 3, 2019)




----------



## killer b (Dec 3, 2019)

I don't think that's real 39. unfortunately.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 3, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't think that's real 39. unfortunately.


Like any new toy there's a good first ten minutes of fun with the Guardian meme  Guardian Meme Generator


----------



## chilango (Dec 3, 2019)




----------



## killer b (Dec 3, 2019)

their category headings don't make me think I want to utilise their website tbh


----------



## chilango (Dec 3, 2019)

I'm not sure there's 10 minutes of fun there 'steps.


----------



## treelover (Dec 3, 2019)

Who did Will post under?


----------



## killer b (Dec 3, 2019)

I don't think he ever did tbh. It was a joke.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 3, 2019)

Shouldn't be hard to find if he ever did. Will be long and dull, involve lots of wanky words, and have edgy references to crack cocaine or something


----------



## elbows (Dec 3, 2019)

Footage of him flouncing has been uncovered.


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 3, 2019)

He doesn't seem that mad, here

Boris Johnson Constantly Gets Away with Lying – This Is Why


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 3, 2019)

> When I worked for the BBC, between 2001 and 2013, it was drummed into us that we had to correct falsehoods in real time. We would scrap entire videos, or re-edit them on tape at furious speed, just because some minor detail was wrong.
> 
> Today, the problem is of a different order: we are no longer dealing with mistakes. We are dealing with a conservative political elite whose core strategy is falsehood. And – as Marr's interview showed – the normal journalistic strategies are not working


This gubbins about a time political and journalistic truth is daft when coming from liberals coming from a bloke who's supposed to be aware of the political background of the left it's truly naive. What about the Zinoviev letter, what about Orgreave. For God's sake, one of Mason's best stories during his time on the BBC was how Nick Robinson deliberately used "normal journalistic strategies" to make a political point.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 3, 2019)

chilango said:


> I'm not sure there's 10 minutes of fun there 'steps.


I'm easily amused tbh


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 3, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Shouldn't be hard to find if he ever did. Will be long and dull, involve lots of wanky words, and have edgy references to crack cocaine or something


I think he posted as PK or something like that


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 14, 2019)

After everything. Having sat and thought it through.  By weighing the evidence. This is what Mason comes up with.



I’ve changed my mind. He’s not mad. He’s a massive cunt


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

They massacred 30 000 people in cold blooded revenge. He thinks that...no, that's enough. Fucking hell.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 15, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> After everything. Having sat and thought it through.  By weighing the evidence. This is what Mason comes up with.
> 
> I’ve changed my mind. He’s not mad. He’s a massive cunt


He was arguing for a "Popular Front" with these people 10 weeks or so ago.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 15, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> He was arguing for a "Popular Front" with these people 10 weeks or so ago.



He still is


----------



## rekil (Dec 15, 2019)

There are no mitigating factors but I think this is what Mason was reacting to. I believe she was one of the sensibles shouting over Blakeley for saying that Labour's policies were popular on gmb or something.


----------



## agricola (Dec 15, 2019)

copliker said:


> There are no mitigating factors but I think this is what Mason was reacting to. I believe she was one of the sensibles shouting over Blakeley for saying that Labour's policies were popular on gmb or something.
> 
> View attachment 193082



TBF that is a bit of a mitigating factor, if that is what he was reacting to.  "Legitimate voice" ffs.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Dec 17, 2019)

Paul has a thread and pamphlet for everyone, tweeted last night. It covers:

- why Labour needed to be more Remain
- why Labour should have attacked Russia and crime more
- how he foretold all of this many moons ago
- obligatory defence of Keir Starmer

THREAD: Why Labour lost (from "After Corbynism"). 1/ Fact: Labour lost twice as many voters to Remain parties as to the Tories. It lost them quickly (April-June). It lost them because Corbyn and NEC dithered over Second Referendum/Remain...

https://t.co/yBgdKFOqCr Paul Mason on Twitter


----------



## chilango (Dec 17, 2019)

He seems to have lost/abandoned his political rudder and is left chasing shadows.


----------



## rekil (Dec 17, 2019)

agricola said:


> TBF that is a bit of a mitigating factor, if that is what he was reacting to.  "Legitimate voice" ffs.


Novara being a latter day Paris commune is a bit of a leap to say the least. Walker was asking "what mps do you want to see interviewed" the other day. Incendiary stuff.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 17, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Paul has a thread and pamphlet for everyone, tweeted last night. It covers:
> 
> - why Labour needed to be more Remain
> - why Labour should have attacked Russia and crime more
> ...



I've read the pamphlet. 

There are the kernels of some good ideas in it. 

But then even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I plan to write much more about this shortly.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 17, 2019)

I shall read that on my train to work in a bit, doesn't look like it will take long. Might be something in it. What is pissing me off about him though is his blatant attempts at running with the hare and hunting with the hounds. He has spent the last few years effectively calling people who don't get behind the project that he now calls tainted from the start political scabs or cowards, whilst at the same time he was also privately plotting against that project with keir starmer, clive lewis and others -  and then publicly defending the project with the most left-wing voices he could find who were attempting to embed and extend that project that he actually thought was failing whilst trading off an seeking to establish the idea that he was the brains behind the operation, the eminence grise. I mean i thought multitudinous positionism had been consigned to the dustbin of history.

Ok, some notes/thoughts as i read through it -:

1)The first section is about what happened. The idea is that they lost the election because they lost votes to the lib-dems and the greens and this necessitates a 'progressive alliance' with them. He doesn't say where they lost these votes to them and if they translated into lost seats - which you know, is sort of important to establish. As if establishing if this alliance would win seats. I don't know how he can think of the lib-dems as progressive either. So basically he arguing for a redistribution of votes on a number of untested and i think incorrect assumptions (the lib-dems are interested and that it would be electorally effective).

2) He says the move towards REMAIN saved labour. He says everything is Len Mcluckey's fault for opposing this. He later goes on to say that the move towards REMAIN was done at LM's insistence. This is typical of the twisting involved throughout.

3) He uses the term 'plebian right'

4) He wheels out his mis-use of the Hannah Arendt quote about an alliance of elites and mobs once more, happy to use the rhetorical sheen of it but not the substantive content.

5) W/c in big towns are inherently cosmopolitan, socially liberal, concerned with social justice etc

6) The other more horrible w/c in the north and midlands have 'detached themselves' from labour and its values rather than labour abandoning - or more accurately - attacking the conditions of their existence. Again later on he recognises this started under blair but doesn't mage to connect the two.

7) Skilled w/c  simply = remain for him

8) What should have happened to ensure victory was an early bolstered open remain position that the new core membership - 'the skilled and educated workforce, the BAME communities and the youth' - could then have spent the summer evangelising for in the north and midlands where people voted leave and were losing trust in labour. I think this warrants the thread title alone.

9) Trident could have saved us.

The other sections are his usual stuff with a new plea for an internal labour technocracy to direct a new progressive social alliance. It's funny how when things led by people like him/them fail the answer is always a new wider project headed by people like him/them?


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2019)

There's some good analysis in there, but he tries to squeeze it all into _him actually being right all along_ which fucks it in the end.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 17, 2019)

butchersapron has just saved me a job.....

I might still write something because Mason is suggesting an 'unmaking of the WC' in the deindustrialised towns of the Midlands, North and Wales (but not in smashed town Scotland) and this needs to be engaged with.


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 17, 2019)

I kept quiet about him during the election, but Paul Mason is a glib fraud. A pissweak imitation of Varoufakis, without the intellect.

Fully expect him to tack towards DiEM25 or some such other megalomaniac formation if the Centrist Dads ‘take back control’ over Labour; and, thereafter, a lifetime of leather-jacketed inconsequence, alongside similar ‘intellectual’ profiles, producing dialectical tracts that no-one wants to read, and with no real-world consequences beyond hollow laughter.

Still he should get a book deal out of it. Wank


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 17, 2019)

steeplejack said:


> I kept quiet about him during the election, but Paul Mason is a glib fraud. A pissweak imitation of Varoufakis, without the intellect.
> 
> Fully expect him to tack towards DiEM25 or some such other megalomaniac formation if the Centrist Dads ‘take back control’ over Labour; and, thereafter, a lifetime of leather-jacketed inconsequence, alongside similar ‘intellectual’ profiles, producing dialectical tracts that no-one wants to read, and with no real-world consequences beyond hollow laughter.
> 
> Still he should get a book deal out of it. Wank



His role, and that of similar 'thinkers' is of significant importance in the reformulation of the centrist alliance.

His pamphlet is a full frontal attack on the 'pleblain right' scum trapped in the ex-industrial towns of the Midlands, North and Wales. They are a new dangerous class. A class apart from the progressive, multicultural and liberal working class in the cities. They are lost to 'nativism'.

The logical steps for the left to take therefore given the emergence of this group are obvious: socialism without the working class. A new alliance of the liberal middle class and city dwelling, young working class.  

The pamphlet to be fair to him is abundantly clear on this point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2019)

steeplejack said:


> Still he should get a book deal out of it. Wank


another forest faces destruction to feed his ego


----------



## 8ball (Dec 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> another forest faces destruction to feed his ego



Is it going to take more than half a tree?


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 17, 2019)

I mean if you intend to win back these lost voters in the next five years, it really is hard to imagine a worse strategy.

Mason and his kind are a liability for Labour, really. I suspect there may be a bit if raging against the dying of the light.

We’re now in a position where we’re leaving Europe and we will all face unprecedented assaults on democracy and workers’ rights with the likely possibility of our economy being re-organised in response to awful trade deals negotiated from a position of beggars’ weakness.

Paul Mason’s bluster is at best, of limited academic interest at this point. A busted flush.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 17, 2019)

steeplejack said:


> I suspect there may be a bit if raging against the dying of the light.



You know which forum you're posting on, right?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 17, 2019)

steeplejack said:


> I mean if you intend to win back these lost voters in the next five years, it really is hard to imagine a worse strategy.
> 
> Mason and his kind are a liability for Labour, really. I suspect there may be a bit if raging against the dying of the light.
> 
> ...



You've got this wrong. Mason isn't interested in winning them back - he wants to create the intellectual cover to dump them. He wants to drive a deeper cleavage. He wants to politically 'other' them

Yes, there must be some crumbs thrown to these areas. See his bizarre stuff about nuclear weapons - as though this is what you dream of trapped in a cancelled future in a dead ex-mining village. 

But this is about  the direction of travel - the new progressive alliance.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2019)

i thought someone who like paul mason was paid to observe the political landscape might have noticed that the lib dems are prepared, if not eager, to leap into bed with the tories for power. i don't see how they could ever form part of a left / liberal alliance, when for 30 pieces of silver or less they will sell out every principle they professed to hold sacrosanct.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't see how they could ever form part of a left / liberal alliance, when for 30 pieces of silver or less they will sell out every principle they professed to hold sacrosanct.



Isn't that exactly why they would do it?


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2019)

A Lib Dem friend has spent the election telling me Mason is the only left-wing commentator worth listening to, not-coincidentally.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Isn't that exactly why they would do it?


have you been following the lib dem history of saying 'we can't work with this labour leader' over a decade or more?

the lib dems would never enter such an alliance with the labour party or any left / progressive formation, while they are pleased to associate themselves with tories.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> have you been following the lib dem history of saying 'we can't work with this labour leader' over a decade or more?



I remember speaking to some a bit before the 2015 election at a point where Ed Miliband was having a little purple patch and they were quite enthusiastic about an anticipated alliance with Labour rather than the Tories in an election they expected to be hung with Labour having the most seats.

(I can't even remember why I was talking to some Lib Dems now.  At least one of them was a councillor...)


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> A Lib Dem friend has spent the election telling me Mason is the only left-wing commentator worth listening to, not-coincidentally.


(the same friend was today saying the only way out of perpetual tory rule is to have a temporary electoral pact between Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens, with the sole aim of electoral reform)


----------



## 8ball (Dec 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> (the same friend was today saying the only way out of perpetual tory rule is to have a temporary electoral pact between Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens, with the sole aim of electoral reform)



I saw this idea bouncing about my FB feed earlier... think it was once of the "enthusiastic remain" brigade.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> (the same friend was today saying the only way out of perpetual tory rule is to have a temporary electoral pact between Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens, with the sole aim of electoral reform)



The Greens, the party that got into bed with the tory-enablers. what a bunch of frauds.


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> The Greens, the party that got into bed with the tory-enablers. what a bunch of frauds.


he's actually suggesting they get into bed with the tory enablers tbf


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> he's actually suggesting they get into bed with the tory enablers tbf



a shift from supporting a manifesto with a proposed 25 year carbon emission solution to a 10 year one may help offset some potential guilt they had in their election choice. although with that lot I doubt it.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 17, 2019)

.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 17, 2019)

Have read the Mason thing over last couple of hours, have nothing to add that hasn't already been said, except to say that he's a cunt. No saving graces.


----------



## chilango (Dec 17, 2019)

He's on tyskysour one evening this week if you want to watch him vigorously argue for whatever it is that particular day...


----------



## SpackleFrog (Dec 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> He's on tyskysour one evening this week if you want to watch him vigorously argue for whatever it is that particular day...



I'd like to see them *all* showing a bit of humility and admitting they've got a lot wrong but somehow I doubt they will so will give it a miss.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 17, 2019)

No chance. He’s published his 21 demands that the leadership candidate who wants his support must meet.


Seriously. Who the fuck does he think he is?

I haven’t got a clue what tyskysour is but the last thing you’ll hear from the ‘public intellectual’ is any recognition of how wide of the mark he was. It’ll be a doubling down of his shit.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 17, 2019)

The real 21 conditions.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> A Lib Dem friend has spent the election telling me Mason is the only left-wing commentator worth listening to, not-coincidentally.


Brilliant.


----------



## chilango (Dec 17, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I haven’t got a clue what tyskysour is



Probably for the best. I don't think you'd like it.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 17, 2019)

> That was not Corbyn's fault. The Cold War right-wingers who smeared and slandered Labour as they quit the party, urging votes for the Tories; the neoliberals who defected to the Libdems; the hand-wringing liberal media who could not bring themselves to vote Labour even in the face of the right wing threat - all share responsibility. But we have to face facts.
> 
> Faced with an alliance of the right and the far right, the only effective response is a temporary alliance of the centre and the left.


This part is really mad. At least many of the other contradictions are spread over 2+ pages, here you've not even got two paragraphs separating it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> Probably for the best. I don't think you'd like it.



I’ve googled it. I agree, I don’t think I’d like it


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 17, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> View attachment 193291
> Seriously. Who the fuck does he think he is?


Just for fun, who does this list leave in the running?


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Just for fun, who does this list leave in the running?


Andy McDonald


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 17, 2019)

number 2 rules out Lavery.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Dec 17, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No chance. He’s published his 21 demands that the leadership candidate who wants his support must meet.
> 
> View attachment 193291
> Seriously. Who the fuck does he think he is?
> ...



That list is fucking bonkers and especially coming from someone who demanded they vote against Brexit and refuse to accept the referendum result. 

21 is MENTAL. Can you imagine the fake approval rating polls people would make up? Or the media fanfare if there was any sign of dropping towards -30%?

Mason has made me angrier than anyone else in the last few days. He is a mega entitled stone cold scum bag.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Dec 17, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> This part is really mad. At least many of the other contradictions are spread over 2+ pages, here you've not even got two paragraphs separating it.



Popular frontism pure and simple. Embarrassing both because this is not Germany in the 1930's and because of how poorly that worked out at the time.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 17, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Just for fun, who does this list leave in the running?


Corbyn?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 17, 2019)

How will any candidate bounce back from not getting the coveted Mason endorsement though. Greece. Tech. Let me tell you why, what, why.


----------



## rekil (Dec 17, 2019)

22: 7 feet tall
23: Great big shock of red hair (get the scotch back)
24: Eyes of smouldering coals (for former mining towns)


----------



## Wilf (Dec 17, 2019)

25: never put a cat in a bin, but willing to engage with those who have.


----------



## elbows (Dec 18, 2019)

26: will resign within 45 minutes of any of their u75 posts not receiving at least 6 likes
27: owns or has access to a pipe that can be used as a prop in propaganda
28: has useful business contacts in the pop-up beret store realm
29: a handshake that would make Ayn Rand shake


----------



## JimW (Dec 18, 2019)

The 32 Major Marks of a Buddha's Physical Body


> The fingers and toes of a Buddha are connected with a web of white light.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 18, 2019)

30. Will make fully automated luxury Communism the centrepiece of the 2024 manifesto. Thereby allowing me to make money writing about it for the next 5 years


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 18, 2019)

31 must commit to a policy of bringing the price of space raiders back down to 10p


----------



## Sue (Dec 18, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> 31 must commit to a policy of bringing the price of space raiders back down to 10p


Only now are we getting to the nub of the matter.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 18, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> 31 must commit to a policy of bringing the price of space raiders back down to 10p



A leader would only be able to get that through conference if it was tagged onto a much more important issue, one that was critical to the lives of millions of the Proletariat - namely the banning of fake milk bottles, and ensuring that the only ones sold were the Bassett ones, the ones with the floury-milk powder type stuff on them.

Onward we march Comrades...


----------



## elbows (Dec 18, 2019)

32. A pledge to return white dog shit to the streets in virtual form, via a new smartphone app that features augmented reality, 'the peoples poop portal'.
33. Chad virtual graffiti to be available through the same app, via a reasonably priced in-app purchase.


----------



## JimW (Dec 18, 2019)

34. Able to perform "keepie-uppie" with a standard match ball for at least two minutes. Use of head allowed subject to conference approval.


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

35. Can make a _croque monsieur_ in 15 minutes without fucking it up


----------



## mauvais (Dec 18, 2019)

36. Impervious to flames
37. Will actually die rather than just appear to have died if stabbed with a dagger of purest gold


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 18, 2019)

39. Has danced with the devil in the pale moonlight


----------



## mauvais (Dec 18, 2019)

I'm glad to see 38 got swiftly redacted.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 18, 2019)

40. Must display a natural touch when seen milking animals
41. Good strong arms for throwing quoits
42. Loves their mum


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

43. Can play up front or on the wing.


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

44. Has a clean driving license and is eligible to work in the UK.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 18, 2019)

45. Has seen things no man (or beast) should see


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

46. GSOH. Looking for friendship, maybe more?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 18, 2019)

47. Must never have been in an office. In their fucking life.


----------



## JimW (Dec 18, 2019)

48. Able to perform a medley of left wing classics on the comb and paper, including, but not limited to, The Internationale, The Red Flag and Things Can Only Get Better.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 18, 2019)

JimW said:


> 48. Able to perform a medley of left wing classics on the comb and paper, including, but not limited to, The Internationale, The Red Flag and Things Can Only Get Better.



48(ii). ability to perform, in addition to 48, _My Old Mans a Dustman_ on the comb and paper, in a Northern tone.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 18, 2019)

49. Can easily fight and win against, like, an ordinary fish or a medium sized bird, possibly even as much as a mid-level slightly reluctant dog or some sort of ovine, but ABSOLUTELY NOT under ANY circumstances likely to hold their own against an eagle, wild boar, eel (especially) or venomous toad.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 18, 2019)

50. has no need of the Law Courts when someone says something nasty/true about them.


----------



## Sue (Dec 18, 2019)

51. Can eat chips and hold a pint* like they've actually done it before.

*Other drinks also applicable.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 18, 2019)

52. doesn't shirk from the responsibility of buying a round.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 18, 2019)

53. Have seen the world in a grain of sand
54. To have snogged all the Strictly judges, as far back as Len Goodman.
55. Must have a new _workable _solution to the cheese/beans conundrum.


----------



## Libertad (Dec 18, 2019)

38. was must have seen things the electorate wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion and also watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 18, 2019)

56. Must have a torture film, drive a GTO, wear a uniform, all on a government loan.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## elbows (Dec 18, 2019)

57. Looks good in a sidecar
58. Possesses sufficient trigonometry skills to avoid awkward breast high-fiving


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 18, 2019)

59. Can eat six pickled eggs in a row without a drink


----------



## LDC (Dec 18, 2019)

I _really _hope the responses on his Twitter are like this as well.


----------



## elbows (Dec 18, 2019)

60. Looks like an omnipotent world king when pictured inside a lightbulb by the fucking Sun.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 18, 2019)

61. You can Photoshop their face onto a character from _Avengers _and it looks better than the original.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 18, 2019)

62. Can ride a horse while chopping wood and wrestling a bear.


----------



## elbows (Dec 18, 2019)

63. Has a very chantable name
64. Has a credible plan to replace dog whistles with cat trombones


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 18, 2019)

65. can pat their head and rub their belly at the same time


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 18, 2019)

66. Can can the can.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## LDC (Dec 18, 2019)

kebabking said:


> 62. Can ride a horse while chopping wood and wrestling a bear.



Putin's up for leader now?


----------



## Libertad (Dec 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Putin's up for leader now?



Of course, natural succession innit.


----------



## LDC (Dec 18, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Of course, natural succession innit.



What aftershave or perfumes do the other contenders like?


----------



## Flavour (Dec 18, 2019)

s'all pointing towards rebecca long bailey by the sounds of it then innit


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

67. On TV's _Bullseye_ could win the Speedboat by doing the darts and quiz rounds single handedly.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 18, 2019)

68. Can right the unrightable wrong
69. Can love pure and chaste from afar
70. Can try when their arms are too weary
71. Can reach the unreachable star


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2019)

72. Can spark with their Blakeys


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve googled it. I agree, I don’t think I’d like it


Did you scroll down far enough to see the phrase “the ciscourse”


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 18, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Did you scroll down far enough to see the phrase “the ciscourse”



no.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 18, 2019)

chilango said:


> 67. On TV's _Bullseye_ could win the Speedboat by doing the darts and quiz rounds single handedly.



This one is critical in my view. Demonstrates brains _and _technical skills


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

When we get to 100 shall we let Paul know?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 18, 2019)

chilango said:


> 35. Can make a _croque monsieur_ in 15 minutes without fucking it up



Liberal cunt


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Liberal cunt



Gotta keep that voter coalition together innit?


----------



## kebabking (Dec 18, 2019)

chilango said:


> When we get to 100 shall we let Paul know?



Someone who knows how to use the tweeter should stick it on his thingy..


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

73. is NOT one of the following-


police and prison officers
those who have the power to restrain or imprison in detention centres of all varieties
bailiffs
full-time paid trade union officials
members of political parties
strike breakers
those who have ultimate power to hire and fire or those whose primary role in the workplace is to hire and fire
those who have the ultimate power to remove benefits
those who make a living out of the exploitation of others


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 18, 2019)

chilango said:


> Gotta keep that voter coalition together innit?



Perhaps, but Dempsey doesn’t forgive.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 18, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> 73. is NOT one of the following-
> 
> those who have the power to restrain or imprison in detention centres of all varieties
> those who have the ultimate power to remove benefits
> those who make a living out of the exploitation of others



Gonna lose the #doctorsagainstboris vote that


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

JimW said:


> 48. Able to perform a medley of left wing classics on the comb and paper, including, but not limited to, The Internationale, The Red Flag and Things Can Only Get Better.


Chumbawamba deserves a mention here


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Gonna lose the #doctorsagainstboris vote that


Paternalist shits


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 18, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> 73. is NOT one of the following-
> 
> 
> police and prison officers
> ...



I recognise that!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> I recognise that!


I was just joining them, because the Anarchist Federation apparently no longer exists in Inverness(I’m further north than that) Off the back of your post I think actually. 

They say if I’m not near a local branch I can meet members nearby. Hahahaaaaaa good luck with that.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 18, 2019)

Try the AGG then  Mind you, I don't think we've got people that far north either.


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

chilango said:


> He's on tyskysour one evening this week if you want to watch him vigorously argue for whatever it is that particular day...



8pm tonight. With Bastani for full effect. I'll watch it so you don't have to.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 18, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Try the AGG then  Mind you, I don't think we've got people that far north either.



I was in the SWP some 15 years ago. Cautious of ending up repeating the experience.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

chilango said:


> 8pm tonight. With Bastani for full effect. I'll watch it so you don't have to.


Thanks. Is Tyskysour Apple sourz mixed with Tyskie?


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Thanks. Is Tyskysour Apple sourz mixed with Tyskie?



Haven't a clue. I'm not a millennial Londoner...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Try the AGG then  Mind you, I don't think we've got people that far north either.


AGG is a horse, think you mean ACG


----------



## eoin_k (Dec 18, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Thanks. Is Tyskysour Apple sourz mixed with Tyskie?



I think they might be going a bit more luxury than Apple Sourzs: pisco sour probably.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 18, 2019)

74. Gets off on sniffing the farts of Verso authors


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> I think they might be going a bit more luxury than Apple Sourzs: pisco sour probably.


Nut, sorry lost again


----------



## eoin_k (Dec 18, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Nut, sorry lost again



It's whiskey sour: a pun that works fine for their base, but not so well as the official media outlet of choice for the opposition... a situation nobody foresaw when they launched to be fair.


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

75: Can throw a shoe over a roof if challenged by Johnson to "do the real election".


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> It's whiskey sour: a pun that works fine for their base, but not so well as the official media outlet of choice for the opposition... a situation nobody foresaw when they launched to be fair.


THERE IS NO “WHISKEY” IN MARYHILL


/Taggart STV bingewatch ref.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 18, 2019)

Someone should invite Mason onto this thread


----------



## mauvais (Dec 18, 2019)

What if he's already here? My money is on Proper Tidy - remarkable resemblance IMO.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2019)

76. Never _Grandstand, _always Dickie Davies


----------



## eoin_k (Dec 18, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> THERE IS NO “WHISKEY” IN MARYHILL
> 
> 
> /Taggart STV bingewatch ref.



But plenty of whisky no doubt.


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

77. Has 100% positive feedback on eBay. "A+++ would buy again".


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

78. Delivers to the Scottish Isles


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

TAKE NOTE ACG


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

79. In "as new" condition, complete with tags and original packaging.


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

80.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 18, 2019)

Don't send this to mason fgs, i've enough on my plate without twitter crap from his gang.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 18, 2019)

81. Able to supply a more precise location of tonight's rumoured jailbreak than, "somewhere in this town"


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 18, 2019)

82. Be a man with a focus and a temper
83. Be able to open up a map and see between 1 and 2


----------



## Wilf (Dec 18, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This one is critical in my view. Demonstrates brains _and _technical skills


I respect your view comrade, but mess with the format of Bullseye at your peril. The Dear Leader answers the questions and Comrade Stakhanov hurls the Arrows of Righteous Proletarian Rage. The other model is the Sleaford Mods, one does all the shouty stuff and other taps his laptop occasionally.


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I respect your view comrade, but mess with the format of Bullseye at your peril. The Dear Leader answers the questions and Comrade Stakhanov hurls the Arrows of Righteous Proletarian Rage. The other model is the Sleaford Mods, one does all the shouty stuff and other taps his laptop occasionally.



What like the Pet Shop Boys?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2019)

84. Coal not dole...don't tell Greta.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 18, 2019)

chilango said:


> What like the Pet Shop Boys?


To be fair, west end girls were a key remain demographic for labour.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 18, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I was in the SWP some 15 years ago. Cautious of ending up repeating the experience.


I  sincerely hope you're not comparing us to the wicked SWP


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> AGG is a horse, think you mean ACG


----------



## YouSir (Dec 18, 2019)

85: Rougher than rough 
86: Tougher than tough
89: Strong like lion
90: They are iron


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


>


Hahaha it’s the fucking ACG I’m applying to, I just took you at your word that there was like another 5 sects


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

The anarchist granny group as founded by Stuart Christie’s nan


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Don't send this to mason fgs, i've enough on my plate without twitter crap from his gang.


This is our plate you’ve never even come wi some criteria of your own yet likely due to some strange reluctance to not playing our fun party games


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2019)

Mason has just called for the restoration of the anglo-saxon heptarchy


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 18, 2019)

91. Must be 6 months ahead of whatever happens


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2019)

chilango said:


> Mason has just called for the restoration of the anglo-saxon heptarchy


that's his first good idea this decade


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 18, 2019)

*92.* Gets to Glastonbury (obvs!  ) ... but does *not* get onto Pyramid Stage** to milk popular singing from huge crowd  ... instead, hangs out in real ale and proper cider hang-outs  ... with small/cool bands playing  ... and buys generous rounds 

**Unless Ozzy Osbourne or a suddenly much-lefticised Kate Bush are eligible to stand for Party leader  ... against each other!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> 91. Must be 6 months ahead of whatever happens


91(a) a proven record of having “called it”


----------



## Sue (Dec 19, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Don't send this to mason fgs, i've enough on my plate without twitter crap from his gang.



Tbf it'd be a massive improvement on his original 21 demands.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 19, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Paternalist shits



Learning lessons from labours defeat, this not in any way Fabian-paternalist doctor writes of her view from ‘the front line’ (oh yeah?)

I'm a GP – here's what's going to happen to the NHS now


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 19, 2019)

92. Ownership of and ability to wear iron shirt.
93. To chase the devil out of Eart.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 19, 2019)

94. Any Cabinet members to adopt left-meme names throwing some doubt into exact position to appeal to as many voters as possible, i.e. The Artful Hoxha, GG Stalin, Immanuel Bantz, etc


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2019)

95. Able to walk the rice paper without tearing it.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2019)

96. Be like water (tap)


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 19, 2019)

S☼I said:


> 92. Ownership of and ability to wear iron shirt.
> 93. To chase the devil out of Eart.


 Now we are talking!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 19, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> 91. Must be 6 months ahead of whatever happens



Hasn’t Mason himself already put this one forward?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 19, 2019)

First time as tragedy....


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 19, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> First time as tragedy....



I listened to a bit from 14 minutes onwards, he’s just being a dick. “I wanted to put a Tory Brexit on the paper against a Labour Remain” 
Makes no sense- which party was going to be in power at this point? Were labour going to then bash on with a “Tory brexit”


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 19, 2019)

That’s about as much as I could stand sorry.


He was on about Labour losing social liberals as the main issue at the point I switched off


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Dec 19, 2019)

97								
												  Can






When was there last a competent dancer in Westminster? Disraeli?


----------



## LDC (Dec 19, 2019)

Listening to him on Novara, fucks sake Mason, he's deluded.


----------



## LDC (Dec 19, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Hasn’t Mason himself already put this one forward?



Yeah he actually said _exactly_ that on Novara.

"My problem is I'm six months ahead of what actually happens." 

FFS.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 19, 2019)

Can we get back to this Heptarchy idea please? Does he have a date in mind - is there a Bretwalda, is Northumbria ruling from the Trent to the Tay?

Can we have Hwicce back?


----------



## LDC (Dec 19, 2019)

I live in Northumbria, do we have to go with war with Mercia or something? Can we not have Richard Burgon as our King please?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 19, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah he actually said _exactly_ that on Novara.
> 
> "My problem is I'm six months ahead of what actually happens."
> 
> FFS.


Bahahahaha


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Dec 19, 2019)

Anglo-Saxon sounding politicians:

Harold 

Oswald 

Edward


----------



## Libertad (Dec 19, 2019)

S☼I said:


> 92. Ownership of and ability to wear iron shirt.
> 93. To chase the devil out of Eart.



93a. Always carry a wooden knife.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Dec 19, 2019)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Anglo-Saxon sounding politicians:
> 
> Harold
> 
> ...



Edwina (!)


----------



## Jay Park (Dec 19, 2019)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Anglo-Saxon sounding politicians:
> 
> Harold
> 
> ...



93b must be able to withstand an arrow to the eye and continue the push toward posadism


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 19, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah he actually said _exactly_ that on Novara.
> 
> "My problem is I'm six months ahead of what actually happens."
> 
> FFS.


. Christ, while I think the stuff he's being stating is absolutely made and awful I think I'm probably less critical of him as a person than some on this thread but FFS.


----------



## LDC (Dec 19, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> . Christ, while I think the stuff he's being stating is absolutely made and awful I think I'm probably less critical of him as a person than some on this thread but FFS.



He's a bit right on Corbyn and Skripal and other security issues tbf.


----------



## rekil (Dec 19, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> He's a bit right on Corbyn and Skripal and other security issues tbf.


That's at 46:10. Aaron went as close as he ever will to admitting that his promotion of crankosphere crankery demonstrates poor judgement. 

Meanwhile...



Spoiler


----------



## Wilf (Dec 19, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> . Christ, while I think the stuff he's being stating is absolutely made and awful I think I'm probably less critical of him as a person than some on this thread but FFS.


 Me, as I was listening to him:

'Yeah'
'Actually, yes'
'Well, not sure, but still...'
'Eh?
'You fucking _what?'_


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 19, 2019)

Talking of Novara. Thinking about them and Mason its increasingly clear that they are increasingly intellectually adrift. I'm not going to criticise them for that. Or for casting around for ideas. My principle objection is the _weight _given to their floundering. It's beyond social media bubbles. A lot of young stewards are influenced by them (among the 'active' layer anyway) and their burgeoning media careers give them a profile that, relative to their ideas, is massively disproportionate.


----------



## elbows (Dec 19, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah he actually said _exactly_ that on Novara.
> 
> "My problem is I'm six months ahead of what actually happens."
> 
> FFS.



98. Must carry an inflatable shrine to the prophet motive at all times.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 19, 2019)

99. must have worn leather jackets in the past but not anymore


----------



## YouSir (Dec 19, 2019)

100: Must have watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.


----------



## Libertad (Dec 19, 2019)

YouSir said:


> 100: Must have watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 19, 2019)

101 must die of a strangle wank at the age of 80


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 19, 2019)

I know downfall vids are usually beyond naff now but this one i think covers all the bases.

Paul Mason reacts to Labour's election defeat


----------



## elbows (Dec 19, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> I know downfall vids are usually beyond naff now but this one i think covers all the bases.
> 
> Paul Mason reacts to Labour's election defeat



Luckily they went so far beyond naff so long ago that I havent seen one for ages, and this one brings them right back into style for me. It helps that its one of the better ones with plenty of material to draw on!


----------



## two sheds (Dec 19, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Learning lessons from labours defeat, this not in any way Fabian-paternalist doctor writes of her view from ‘the front line’ (oh yeah?)
> 
> I'm a GP – here's what's going to happen to the NHS now



Seems fair enough as a critique of government policy and description of what's facing NHS from a GP to me.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 19, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> I know downfall vids are usually beyond naff now but this one i think covers all the bases.
> 
> Paul Mason reacts to Labour's election defeat


I was waiting for someone to reheat the “THIS COUNTRY DOESN’T DESERVE ED MILLIBAND” quote


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> I know downfall vids are usually beyond naff now but this one i think covers all the bases.
> 
> Paul Mason reacts to Labour's election defeat


_We needed those fascists to vote for us to stop a fascist takeover..
_
Genius_ _


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 19, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Seems fair enough as a critique of government policy and description of what's facing NHS from a GP to me.


Nah fair dos it’s hard for people in the front line to read about a GP talking about the front line and not let a cynical
OH YEAH escape from yer mouth


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 19, 2019)

Mason has got his candidate:

Clive Lewis joins race to be Labour leader pledging to 'unleash' party


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Dec 20, 2019)

102 Must know when to stop at 100


----------



## LDC (Dec 20, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> I know downfall vids are usually beyond naff now but this one i think covers all the bases.
> 
> Paul Mason reacts to Labour's election defeat



That is the best thing I've seen for ages.


----------



## chilango (Dec 20, 2019)

Simone could surely "deepfake" their faces onto it...badly.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 23, 2019)

#anarchocommunism
#baritalia


----------



## LDC (Dec 23, 2019)

Has he strayed into cravat wearing territory?


----------



## rekil (Dec 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Has he strayed into cravat wearing territory?





Spoiler


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 9, 2020)

Mason has finally reached the end of his journey into centrism:





__





						Clive Lewis and Keir Starmer are the candidates who understand how Labour must change
					

Rebecca Long-Bailey’s leadership campaign represents continuity with ideas and methods that failed.




					www.newstatesman.com
				




Game over. Bye bye Paul


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 9, 2020)

Labour lost all those leave seats because it lost remain voters, great stuff


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 9, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Labour lost all those leave seats because it lost remain voters, great stuff



His disgusting bile towards working class people who've been fucked over for 45 years,dressed up as internationalism/anti racism. His smearing of Corbyn after his gormless cheerleading for him. His laughable attempts to portray his centrist politics as radical.

He’s a gigantic fraud.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 9, 2020)

Sheer opportunism and playing to the gallery. Whoever ends up winning the Labour leadership, I’m sure Paul has already formulated a witless 2,000 words of verbose clapping-seal rhetoric outlining exactly why this new leader represents the only and inevitable next historic step on the triumph of social democracy.


----------



## killer b (Jan 9, 2020)

I heard someone call Mason _Sex Dad_ the other day, which IMO is perfect.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 9, 2020)

steeplejack said:


> Sheer opportunism and playing to the gallery. Whoever ends up winning the Labour leadership, I’m sure Paul has already formulated a witless 2,000 words of verbose clapping-seal rhetoric outlining exactly why this new leader represents the only and inevitable next historic step on the triumph of social democracy.



Of course. The most important political task is the maintenance of his career.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 9, 2020)

He's just about achieved peak Ben Elton.


----------



## elbows (Jan 10, 2020)

Wilf said:


> He's just about achieved peak Ben Elton.



Where does it rank on the Russell Brand 'dont use your votey wotey, oh actually change of plan, vote for Ed!'-ometer?


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 10, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Mason has finally reached the end of his journey into centrism:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From formerly witty and interesting trot with a good line in musical taste to lost the fucking plot.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jan 10, 2020)

It has been quite the mid-life crisis for Paul. I wonder if he ever managed to <this bit is heavily censored>


----------



## elbows (Jan 10, 2020)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> It has been quite the mid-life crisis for Paul. I wonder if he ever managed to <this bit is heavily censored>



I heard he couldnt get it past the committee stage.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 10, 2020)

He'll either come a cropper after the ill advised purchase of a mountain bike or claim to be setting up a cult led by himself and the at a loose end royals Meghan and Harry.  Could go either way.


----------



## elbows (Jan 10, 2020)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> It has been quite the mid-life crisis for Paul. I wonder if he ever managed to <this bit is heavily censored>



Actually there was that time he had to go to A&E because he got the block vote stuck somewhere. His curiosity regarding square pegs in round holes got the better of him, perhaps he should apply for one of Cummings weirdo job roles at this rate.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 10, 2020)

Portillo got loads of telly programmes on train journeys, maybe Paul will be filmed reconstructing the naked ramblers greatest hits? He'll turn up in Strasbourg in the nip on Brexit Day, screaming '_look at my John Thomas Monet!_'


----------



## Jay Park (Jan 10, 2020)




----------



## elbows (Jan 10, 2020)

Wilf said:


> He'll either come a cropper after the ill advised purchase of a mountain bike or claim to be setting up a cult led by himself and the at a loose end royals Meghan and Harry.  Could go either way.



Maybe he fancies rubbing the zeitgeist via a modern twist, think pc gaming culture rather than mountain bike.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 10, 2020)

Fedayn said:


> From formerly witty and interesting trot with a good line in musical taste to lost the fucking plot.



I'd love to see an interview between Mason and the Mason who wrote 'Live Working or Die Fighting'.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 11, 2020)




----------



## butchersapron (Jan 11, 2020)

He's now, after breaching the winter palace by himself in 1917, reached the early 30s and the bog standard _why didn't the SPD and the KPD team up._ With the lib-dems in the role of the SPD. That's the SPD who had a million men in a paramilitary group, who had massacred communists in prussia etc. I do hope they're just jumping on the wagon above and it's not true.


----------



## nogojones (Jan 11, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> He's now, after breaching the winter palace by himself in 1917, reached the early 30s and the bog standard _why didn't the SPD and the KPD team up._ With the lib-dems in the role of the SPD. That's the SPD who had a million men in a paramilitary group, who had massacred communists in prussia etc. I do hope they're just jumping on the wagon above and it's not true.


Oh come on now. The SPD may have shot a few commies, but really the Lib Dems are much more annoying


----------



## brogdale (Jan 14, 2020)

I didn't get beyond the first 2 tweets of this (characteristically) long thread...





Left of...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 14, 2020)

He has been teeing this up for weeks by backing Lewis (a candidate he knew was a no hoper) whilst noting (constructing) Starmer's 'left wing' politics. 

The two questions I now have are 1) why and how does Mason retain his profile as a 'left commentator' and 2) why is Mason getting a pass from other plastic lefts for endorsing Starmer?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> h
> Why is Mason getting a pass from other plastic lefts for endorsing Starmer?


Pretty much every response to that thread is negative


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Pretty much every response to that thread is negative



I wasn't thinking about Twitter - I was thinking about those who give him a platform etc


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I wasn't thinking about Twitter - I was thinking about those who give him a platform etc


The New Statesman and The Guardian?


----------



## LDC (Jan 14, 2020)

Novara media especially, he was a staple for a bit, although less so now it seems.


----------



## chilango (Jan 14, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Novara media especially, he was a staple for a bit, although less so now it seems.



Bastani seems to be less than enthusiastic about Mason's trajectory without (yet) being openly critical.


----------



## rekil (Jan 14, 2020)

chilango said:


> Bastani seems to be less than enthusiastic about Mason's trajectory without (yet) being openly critical.


I think it goes without saying that puffed up waistcoat of fuckallery Bastani is no position to criticise anyone's trajectory. They did have some sort of tedious spat a while back.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The New Statesman and The Guardian?



If you think that those two publications (which you’d _expect _to support Mason’s open promotion of third way neo-liberalism) are the only outlets hiring, using and facilitating the construction of the narrative then you’d be badly wide of the mark. Look at his Twitter - an article there, a speaking engagement there, a meeting report etc etc


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If you think that those two publications (which you’d _expect _to support Mason’s open promotion of third way neo-liberalism)


That was my joke 
Boom tish


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2020)

But yeah that's where I see him getting paid to write


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> That was my joke
> Boom tish



oh


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I didn't get beyond the first 2 tweets of this (characteristically) long thread...
> 
> View attachment 195749
> 
> ...



Lol


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 17, 2020)

And now he's moved onto attacking RLB with some Anti-Catholic dog whistle tweeting.

[COLOR=rgba(20, 23, 26, 1)]I've just signed this open letter to the Labour leadership candidates. I don't want Labour's policy on reproductive rights dictated by the Vatican, thanks.[/COLOR]​








						Defend and extend reproductive rights
					

All candidates for leader have now pledged their full support for the pledges in the letter. We're extending the ask to all candidates for deputy leader. Dear Candidate, We’re writing to ask you if elected you’ll commit to defending and extending the reproductive rights of women across the UK...




					defendandextend.wordpress.com


----------



## andysays (Jan 17, 2020)

Fedayn said:


> And now he's moved onto attacking RLB with some Anti-Catholic dog whistle tweeting.
> 
> [COLOR=rgba(20, 23, 26, 1)]I've just signed this open letter to the Labour leadership candidates. I don't want Labour's policy on reproductive rights dictated by the Vatican, thanks.[/COLOR]
> 
> ...


No Popery in the Labour party!!! **


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 17, 2020)

Fedayn said:


> And now he's moved onto attacking RLB with some Anti-Catholic dog whistle tweeting.
> 
> [COLOR=rgba(20, 23, 26, 1)]I've just signed this open letter to the Labour leadership candidates. I don't want Labour's policy on reproductive rights dictated by the Vatican, thanks.[/COLOR]
> 
> ...



Actually fucking disgusting. Cunt.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 17, 2020)

SpackleFrog said:


> Actually fucking disgusting. Cunt.



Stella Creasy has joined in the nameless attack too. Conveniently forgetting that RLB supported her amendment to extend the right to choose to NI. This is becoming a direct sectarian smear attack on RLB and by extension the Left.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 17, 2020)

and of course anti-semitism, after she apologized to Jewish people over Labour's failure to tackle antisemitism.



			https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labour-s-rebecca-long-bailey-accused-of-staggering-hypocrisy-in-antisemitism-row-1.495125
		




> Ms Long Bailey repeated her suggestion that Labour "owed Jewish people an apology" over its failure to tackle antisemitism.
> 
> But two furious Labour MPs later contacted the _JC, _angry about the shadow business secretary's "staggering hypocrisy" on the issue, given she gave an interview with ITV News earlier on Tuesday in which she scored Mr Corbyn's leadership "10 out of 10".


----------



## gawkrodger (Jan 17, 2020)

properly lost the plot


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jan 17, 2020)

Paul Mason Boyne?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2020)

They think its all over...it is now. I think a period of "quiet reflection" awaits.

I wonder how much of the collapse was down to proximity to power. Must play havoc with your ego and your judgement. Sad to see.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 18, 2020)

The descent has been evident for a long time. I don't think enough was made of that play he had on telly. It was proper fucking west.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> The descent has been evident for a long time. I don't think enough was made of that play he had on telly. It was proper fucking west.View attachment 195986
> 
> View attachment 195987


Wtf is that?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 18, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Wtf is that?



If you don't know it's best you don't find out. I stumbled across it, thought this was a weird thing to see on in a decent slot on a terrestrial channel, what followed was surreal and disturbing


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Jan 18, 2020)

I feel the same about the Mason-Bastani spat as I do about the Morgan-Sugar spat - what a shower.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 20, 2020)

It seems mad Paul has a book coming out on Feb 6th. What an absolute surprise.

The "Left" (apparently including the Liberal Democrats) lost because they were divided

Racism and misogyny being used by the elites to "buy consent" from "the mob". permission granted by the elites to express "racist, ultranationalist, misogynist views".

Hannah Arendt name-checked.

The Isthmian League Varoufakis plays on...


----------



## ska invita (Jan 20, 2020)

steeplejack said:


> It seems mad Paul has a book coming out on Feb 6th. What an absolute surprise.
> 
> The "Left" (apparently including the Liberal Democrats) lost because they were divided
> 
> ...


That book has been out in hardback since last spring 2019 btw. But no doubt he will have another book along very soon. So much to say....


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 20, 2020)

Yeah, this is the all-new paperback version with key new theoretical frameworks...


----------



## brogdale (Feb 24, 2020)

As posted in the Lab leadership thread...today's pearl...


----------



## NoXion (Feb 24, 2020)

Of _course_ he'd come out for Kier. What a shitcunt.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 7, 2020)

Respect to Mason for delivering this utterly foul piss with a straight face.

I wonder what the angle is here? A job with Starmer? Better column opportunities as an insider? A book on ‘where now for Labour‘


----------



## Marty1 (Mar 7, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Respect to Mason for delivering this utterly foul piss with a straight face.
> 
> I wonder what the angle is here? A job with Starmer? Better column opportunities as an insider? A book on ‘where now for Labour‘




This fleshes out his position a bit more.


----------



## josef1878 2.0 (Mar 7, 2020)

He should walk the streets and talk to the people of the town where he grew up (without a camera crew) every day like I do and he might actually realise there weren't many remain voters for Labour to lose there. There's less now they voted Tory for the first time in 90 years.

Here's their new MP









						Tory MP for Leigh apologies over video of him 'flashing genitals' in pub
					

Video has emerged which shows the Tory MP for Leigh dropping his trousers before he embarked on political career




					www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 8, 2020)

Mason’s intellectual and political gymnastics are really something.

A vacuous, posturing charlatan without any scruple.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm just glad I never had any respect for him to begin with.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 9, 2020)

Fact:



Intellectual analysis:


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 9, 2020)

Fact:



Working class public intellectual analysis:


----------



## killer b (Apr 9, 2020)

I hope his new job as an internet TV presenter takes up more of his attention from now. He's actually pretty good at that.


----------



## Sue (Apr 9, 2020)

I think my Marxism is a touch rusty.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 9, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Intellectual analysis:
> ...


Five years and he'll be where Cohen and Aaronovitch were in '97


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Five years and he'll be where Cohen and Aaronovitch were in '97



no doubt, and like Aaronovitch he sees phantom Stalinists everywhere when called out on it.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 4, 2020)

I'll just leave this here.......


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2020)

teqniq said:


> I'll just leave this here.......
> 
> View attachment 220827


I’m on a public webinar with Katja Kipping and Jagmeet Singh. Katja’s the leader of the Left party’s 69-strong fraction in the Bundestag; Jagmeet heads the Canadian NDP; but there’s only one person people want to hear about - Keir Starmer. Starmer, whose leadership campaign I worked on, has dragged Labour’s polling average up by eight points during the lockdown and his own personal approval ratings are now 12 points positive (compared to Corbyn’s minus 50 on election day). Surely everyone is happy, ask the people on the call? Thanks to WhatsApp, and Twitter, I know that parts of what was once Corbynism are not happy. Each time Starmer steps up to the wicket, calmly batting away calls for him to abolish the police force or support the desecration of monuments, I get a flurry of messages and subtweets. ‘Is this centrism or actual Blairism?’ asks one comrade. A homeopath from Birmingham tells me that, due to my support for Keir, I am a ‘State & Intelligence Agency propagandist play-acting being a plastic communist’. A left-wing journalist from Germany suggests that Starmer is ‘a traitor who serves the 1 per cent’, directing me to his own seven-part series on Keir’s links with Israel and the Trilateral Commission. I do wonder if, when we all see each other in person at the next Labour conference, I’m expected to smile weakly at my online detractors over a stale ham sandwich, or whether the lockdown is actually suppressing a civil war inside the party.

The Labour Together election review makes grim reading. Unless Labour can take back a large part of Scotland, it needs a swing in England so large that it takes Jacob Rees-Mogg’s seat in Somerset. We’ll have to take back not only the Red Wall but the Blue Fen. Realistically, the report says, there are three routes back to power: drop social liberalism and bring out the anti-immigration mugs; tack to the centre on economic policy while talking loudly about patriotism; or try to unite a culturally divided working-class base around a radical economic offer that is ‘credible and morally essential’. That third option is effectively the strategy Starmer stood on, but the report also reveals levels of incompetence in the party that will take months to fix. But with goodwill and a united shadow cabinet, it feels like we’re making progress…

At 3.26 p.m. on Thursday Starmer sacks Rebecca Long-Bailey. For my wing of the left, who want to play a constructive role in Starmer’s project, it’s a disaster. Long-Bailey is a competent and engaging politician whose membership of the shadow cabinet was seen by many of us as an insurance policy against the inevitable attempts to pull Starmer to the right. A story emerges of press-imposed deadlines vs unanswered phone calls. Starmer’s people sound flabbergasted that Long-Bailey refused to delete her offensive tweet — and that’s the substance: you can’t have a shadow cabinet member refusing a direct order. Long-Bailey’s people claim it’s all about her support for the teachers’ unions over lockdown. She has to go — but it looks like bad party management. For a few hours, the left talks of open rebellion. There are calls for left-wingers to quit the front bench. But the tweet was offensive, Maxine Peake has apologised; so in the end nobody resigns. It’s a taste of what’s to come. Large parts of the left don’t yet realise how different the party has to look and sound to win back power, even while being committed to radical economic change.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jul 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I’m on a public webinar with Katja Kipping and Jagmeet Singh. Katja’s the leader of the Left party’s 69-strong fraction in the Bundestag; Jagmeet heads the Canadian NDP; but there’s only one person people want to hear about - Keir Starmer. Starmer, whose leadership campaign I worked on, has dragged Labour’s polling average up by eight points during the lockdown and his own personal approval ratings are now 12 points positive (compared to Corbyn’s minus 50 on election day). Surely everyone is happy, ask the people on the call? Thanks to WhatsApp, and Twitter, I know that parts of what was once Corbynism are not happy. Each time Starmer steps up to the wicket, calmly batting away calls for him to abolish the police force or support the desecration of monuments, I get a flurry of messages and subtweets. ‘Is this centrism or actual Blairism?’ asks one comrade. A homeopath from Birmingham tells me that, due to my support for Keir, I am a ‘State & Intelligence Agency propagandist play-acting being a plastic communist’. A left-wing journalist from Germany suggests that Starmer is ‘a traitor who serves the 1 per cent’, directing me to his own seven-part series on Keir’s links with Israel and the Trilateral Commission. I do wonder if, when we all see each other in person at the next Labour conference, I’m expected to smile weakly at my online detractors over a stale ham sandwich, or whether the lockdown is actually suppressing a civil war inside the party.
> 
> The Labour Together election review makes grim reading. Unless Labour can take back a large part of Scotland, it needs a swing in England so large that it takes Jacob Rees-Mogg’s seat in Somerset. We’ll have to take back not only the Red Wall but the Blue Fen. Realistically, the report says, there are three routes back to power: drop social liberalism and bring out the anti-immigration mugs; tack to the centre on economic policy while talking loudly about patriotism; or try to unite a culturally divided working-class base around a radical economic offer that is ‘credible and morally essential’. That third option is effectively the strategy Starmer stood on, but the report also reveals levels of incompetence in the party that will take months to fix. But with goodwill and a united shadow cabinet, it feels like we’re making progress…
> 
> At 3.26 p.m. on Thursday Starmer sacks Rebecca Long-Bailey. For my wing of the left, who want to play a constructive role in Starmer’s project, it’s a disaster. Long-Bailey is a competent and engaging politician whose membership of the shadow cabinet was seen by many of us as an insurance policy against the inevitable attempts to pull Starmer to the right. A story emerges of press-imposed deadlines vs unanswered phone calls. Starmer’s people sound flabbergasted that Long-Bailey refused to delete her offensive tweet — and that’s the substance: you can’t have a shadow cabinet member refusing a direct order. Long-Bailey’s people claim it’s all about her support for the teachers’ unions over lockdown. She has to go — but it looks like bad party management. For a few hours, the left talks of open rebellion. There are calls for left-wingers to quit the front bench. But the tweet was offensive, Maxine Peake has apologised; so in the end nobody resigns. It’s a taste of what’s to come. Large parts of the left don’t yet realise how different the party has to look and sound to win back power, even while being committed to radical economic change.


Excellent post. Totally agree.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 5, 2020)

From

How did the first world war actually end?

to

_ you can’t have a shadow cabinet member refusing a direct order._


----------



## phillm (Jul 5, 2020)

Personally I'm looking forward to when he does his stint on Strictly followed by Now Get Me Out Here where he either radicalises the z-listers to overthrow the autocracy of Ant & Dec or ends up being consumed by the mob. I probably wrongly imagine that there may be the touch of the creepy Galloways if he goes down that route. 

_When is a door to freedom not a door to freedom?

When it's a Paul Mason jar._

I'll get my flat cap and  Michael Foot duffel coat before it kicks off everywhere.


----------



## Alex106 (Jul 5, 2020)

steeplejack said:


> Mason’s intellectual and political gymnastics are really something.
> 
> A vacuous, posturing charlatan without any scruple.


Spot on.


----------



## tim (Aug 13, 2020)

These Northerners have only got themselves to blame, apparently.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 14, 2020)

He put out a long read recently which I thought about posting here. But essentially Mason’s entire repertoire can be boiled down to:

1. Providing, intellectually ineffective, left cover for the Starmer project.
2. Support for popular frontism
3. Denigration of the working class proper and privileging an imaginary progressive majority.

All performed by a 60 year old bloke desperate to be down with the middle class left cool kids.

I can’t even be arsed to mock him anymore.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2020)

Just bumping this up in preparedness for his searing class analysis based ‘hot take’


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Just bumping this up in preparedness for his searing class analysis based ‘hot take’


Working Title:_ 'That's what I call leadership 2020'_


----------



## dylanredefined (Oct 29, 2020)

fucthest8 said:


> Anyone found outside the gates of their subdivision sector after curfew
> Will
> Be
> Shot


Can we just point and shout. Getting weapons and ammunition is a total mare. Probably quicker and easier to smuggle it in from eastern Europe than go through the system tbh.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 13, 2021)

I realise Mason ‘jumped the shark’ sometime ago. I also admit I lacked the _will_ to plough through all of this seemingly unending stream of half baked guff.

Mason now calls for an extension of his popular front and a formal alliance with the state and neoliberalism as the only method to prevent fascism - “we, the left, need to build from below a movement for democratic culture and values, no matter how cynical we are about their content under people like Clinton, Obama and Biden.”

I know he’s got a book to sell on ‘how to prevent fascism’ but fuck me...still it gives shilling for Starmer an ‘intellectual’ veneer I suppose...









						The Trump Insurrection: a Marxist analysis
					

Whether planned or stochastic, it was still a coup




					medium.com


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 13, 2021)

Mason" said:
			
		

> The lessons of Europe in the 1930s are: that only thing that beats and alliance of the elite and the mob is a temporary alliance of the centre and the left. And that when that happens, as in France and Spain between 1934 and 1936, you don’t only win elections but you can create a mass popular antifascist culture.


Someone remind me what happened in Spain in 1936.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 13, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Someone remind me what happened in Spain in 1936.



Quite. But, and to be fair Mason is at the wilder end of the spectrum on this, there is a wider disorientation at present. One where serious attempts to restore the authority of the state and the neo-liberal orthodoxy - thereby recreating or deepening existing conditions that give oxygen to the far right in the first place - are being perceived as some sort of, if not a victory, then some kind of step forward.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I realise Mason ‘jumped the shark’ sometime ago. I also admit I lacked the _will_ to plough through all of this seemingly unending stream of half baked guff.
> 
> Mason now calls for an extension of his popular front and a formal alliance with the state and neoliberalism as the only method to prevent fascism - “we, the left, need to build from below a movement for democratic culture and values, no matter how cynical we are about their content under people like Clinton, Obama and Biden.”
> 
> ...



Just a little thing but it bugs me - I thought he had said he wasn't a Marxist anymore.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 13, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Just a little thing but it bugs me - I thought he had said he wasn't a Marxist anymore.



I thought the opposite. I thought he was insistent that his was a ‘serious’ Marxist analysis?


----------



## Knotted (Jan 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I thought the opposite. I thought he was insistent that his was a ‘serious’ Marxist analysis?



I'm sure I saw him in an interview (perhaps on Newsnight) defending the right of Marxists to be in the Labour Party while saying that he is no longer a Marxist himself. I don't follow him very closely mind.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 13, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I'm sure I saw him in an interview (perhaps on Newsnight) defending the right of Marxists to be in the Labour Party while saying that he is no longer a Marxist himself. I don't follow him very closely mind.



To me to be A Marxist is very different from drawing on Marx for analysis.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jan 13, 2021)

Paul Mason used to be fairly decent when he was on channel 4 news. Pity, I predict he'll end up as a leftish version of David Icke


----------



## ska invita (Jan 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> it gives shilling for Starmer an ‘intellectual’ veneer I suppose...


The providing "intellectual’ veneer" thing has been on mind with him for a while now...
In Live Working or Die Fighting the structure of the book is to take an episode of historical workers struggle - say French garment works in London in the 1800s IIRC, and then follow it with a contemporary moment - Chinese sweatshop garment workers today.
That making history relevant and finding the continuity really worked on me - its an obvious point maybe, but he makes it well.

I get the feeling its something he keeps trying to do, but with each time its seems more and more absurd - i haven't got a concrete example to hand, but effectively talking about the Paris Commune in one breath and Starmer in the second....and hes doing it again now.

As he's someone clearly very well versed in left history - infinitely more knowledgeable than i am - I find it hard to dismiss out of hand, but it does have the air of a delusional attempt to find something in common with his more revolutionary pre-breakdown politics and post-breakdown electioneering politics.
I understand being drawn to a cynical realpolitik worldview, and trying to be realistic about forces of power, but even the reformist in me knows where the line is, and Mason has clearly crossed it.

ETA: I dont think he had a breakdown as such, but definitely got visibly erratic/incoherent/stressed/manic even


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The providing "intellectual’ veneer" thing has been on mind with him for a while now...
> In Live Working or Die Fighting the structure of the book is to take an episode of historical workers struggle - say French garment works in London in the 1800s IIRC, and then follow it with a contemporary moment - Chinese sweatshop garment workers today.
> That making history relevant and finding the continuity really worked on me - its an obvious point maybe, but he makes it well.
> 
> ...



You are right about ‘Live working’. It’s a brilliant and vibrant read. It’s also a great concept - as a way of dealing with history and the present and the linkages. It’s also makes some really sharp and important observations.

As for _latter period Mason_ my own view is that two things have happened. Firstly, he decided to leave his job as economic editor at Channel 4 (where I also thought he was doing interesting work) and decided to become a full time ‘public intellectual’/campaigner. The second was his closeness and ‘being in the room’ presence to the Corbyn project at its onset. The former decision led to him developing an over confidence in his own intellect and ability to predict the future development of capitalism, the latter events created a taste (which he clearly loved and craves)
for proximity to power/influence’. Fatal.

But let’s also remember that Mason was in Workers Power, which tells us something about his judgment...


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The providing "intellectual’ veneer" thing has been on mind with him for a while now...
> In Live Working or Die Fighting the structure of the book is to take an episode of historical workers struggle - say French garment works in London in the 1800s IIRC, and then follow it with a contemporary moment - Chinese sweatshop garment workers today.
> That making history relevant and finding the continuity really worked on me - its an obvious point maybe, but he makes it well.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it feels almost Jekyll and Hyde in some ways - I just wish there was some way to extract out the nice Comrade Paul who likes the Paris Commune and the mass revolts that ended WWI from mad Mr Mason who wants Biden to build a stronger security state. As far as recent examples go, he's been boosting a Paris Commune anniversaries account: 



While also coming out with stuff like:



I'm not really sure he's in much of a position to be telling everyone else to get their heads straight about the state, tbh.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 13, 2021)

" there is NO EXAMPLE IN HISTORY of the labour movement defeating mass fascism on its own... "
<<< any thoughts on that comment though?

Theres a distinction though between defeating existing fascism once its come to power, and defeating it/supressing it before it comes to power,
*Mass *fascism suggests once its come to power, which is slightly a different scenario

Im well out of my depth here, but i am vaguely aware of this moment though








						Spain's Revolution Against Franco: The Great Betrayal - Wellred Books
					

New paperback 522 pages. Wellred Books July 2019. ISBN: 9781913026141.




					wellredbooks.net


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> " there is NO EXAMPLE IN HISTORY of the labour movement defeating mass fascism on its own... "
> <<< any thoughts on that comment though?
> 
> Theres a distinction though between defeating existing fascism once its come to power, and defeating it/supressing it before it comes to power,
> ...


Yeah, it feels a bit tautologous/no true scotsman-y: there are lots and lots of examples of fascist movements in history, probably the vast majority of them did not come to power, but for any of them that were defeated you could probably argue that a) they weren't truly mass enough to qualify, and b) people outside the labour movement also opposed them. I think there's a vast, vast amount of middle ground to explore in between "I think the labour movement as it currently stands is capable of defeating mass fascism all on its own with no help from anyone" and Mason's "let's do a popular front with Biden, the Lib Dems and the CIA", though.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> " there is NO EXAMPLE IN HISTORY of the labour movement defeating mass fascism on its own... "
> <<< any thoughts on that comment though?



It's self serving rhetoric just on the face of it. It's not as if there are any examples of the labour movement being defeated by fascism on its own either and that's because things are never that simple. Is there a context for this quote?

(Oh Gord - Alan Woods)


----------



## ska invita (Feb 26, 2021)

A new low


----------



## NoXion (Feb 26, 2021)

_"Won't somebody please think of the corporations?"_


----------



## brogdale (Feb 26, 2021)

Corporate austerity.


----------



## NoXion (Mar 3, 2021)

I think he's still rattled about all the criticism from the left he's been getting recently:



Apparently we're all tankies. What a wanker.


----------



## Sue (Mar 3, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I think he's still rattled about all the criticism from the left he's been getting recently:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently we're all tankies. What a wanker.



If I'm going to be a tankie, I want to a be a forensic tankie.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 3, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I think he's still rattled about all the criticism from the left he's been getting recently:
> Apparently we're all tankies. What a wanker.



His analysis of the budget response was fascinating I thought. Mason abandoned the usual desperate ‘Marxist’ veneer he normally cobbles together to ‘analyse’ the latest piss and dribble from Starmerarma and has just turned into Philip Gould....


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> His analysis of the budget response was fascinating I thought. Mason abandoned the usual desperate ‘Marxist’ veneer he normally cobbles together to ‘analyse’ the latest piss and dribble from Starmerarma and has just turned into Philip Gould....


“Oh no, Gromit, it's the WRONG GOULD!!!”


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 3, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Five years and he'll be where Cohen and Aaronovitch were in '97





Smokeandsteam said:


> no doubt, and like Aaronovitch he sees phantom Stalinists everywhere when called out on it.


Looks like I was being too cautious


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 3, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Looks like I was being too cautious



Nah, you were spot on actually. Cohen and Aaronovitch are much better examples than mine of his trajectory.


----------



## Knotted (May 10, 2021)

> Johnson has made greed, white victimhood, corruption and xenophobia not only respectable but grimly fashionable in the ex-industrial small towns of England.











						Hard Labour
					

Labour’s electoral debacle, Paul Mason writes, epitomises European social democracy’s coalition-building challenge. It just doesn’t see it that way.




					www.socialeurope.eu


----------



## Wilf (May 10, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Hard Labour
> 
> 
> Labour’s electoral debacle, Paul Mason writes, epitomises European social democracy’s coalition-building challenge. It just doesn’t see it that way.
> ...


There's a lot of 'they' in that piece.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 10, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Hard Labour
> 
> 
> Labour’s electoral debacle, Paul Mason writes, epitomises European social democracy’s coalition-building challenge. It just doesn’t see it that way.
> ...



The usual Mason by numbers dribble:

1. Popular frontism
2. Gratuitously offensive to the section of the working class he claims to come from 
3. Laughable characterisation of where he lives now 
4. Free pass for Starmer 
5. Some sprinkling of radical phrasing for those dense enough to buy it/his ego 

What made you post it up?


----------



## killer b (May 10, 2021)

U wot m8?

_Few frontline Labour politicians studied politics, or attended the British equivalent of the grandes écoles—‘reading’ PPE (philosophy, politics and economics) at Oxford._


----------



## Knotted (May 10, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The usual Mason by numbers dribble:
> 
> 1. Popular frontism
> 2. Gratuitously offensive to the section of the working class he claims to come from
> ...



Because it's the mad Paul Mason thread.


----------



## killer b (May 11, 2021)

I've just been reminded of this excellent checklist of Mason's for the new Labour leader after the 2019 election defeat, shortly before enthusiastically endorsing Starmer (who's popularity rating is somewhere around -48 right now)


----------



## AmateurAgitator (May 15, 2021)

His performance on "Question Time" was painful to behold says Martin. Whatever next ?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 27, 2021)

As Mogwai might have said “Two Wrongs Make A Wrong’


----------



## Jay Park (May 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> I've just been reminded of this excellent checklist of Mason's for the new Labour leader after the 2019 election defeat, shortly before enthusiastically endorsing Starmer (who's popularity rating is somewhere around -48 right now)
> 
> View attachment 267725



should be tattooed to his chest


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 8, 2021)

Some top quality trolling here


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Some top quality trolling here



True


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 8, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> "And then we sold some papers"


Seems fantastical


----------



## ska invita (Jul 8, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I think there's a vast, vast amount of middle ground to explore in between "I think the labour movement as it currently stands is capable of defeating mass fascism all on its own with no help from anyone" and Mason's "let's do a popular front with Biden, the Lib Dems and the CIA", though.


In theory I'm sure you are right, but in practice, lets say taking the US as an example (since you mention Biden and the CIA), what would that constituency actually look like? Whats a half way measure?

*This is the theme of his forthcoming book by the way, how you cant stop fascism without a cross alliance with the middle class + lets call them centrists


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> In theory I'm sure you are right, but in practice, lets say taking the US as an example (since you mention Biden and the CIA), what would that constituency actually look like? Whats a half way measure?
> 
> *This is the theme of his forthcoming book by the way, how you cant stop fascism without a cross alliance with the middle class + lets call them centrists


I mean, that's a big question, but looking back over the past 4-5 years or so, I feel like the US has gone from having an emboldened, confident far-right that was on the march both figuratively and literally, to having pushed the far-right back a great deal. Cos life is complicated, I feel like there's probably enough evidence that I could cherry-pick examples to prove that it was the black bloc wotdunnit, or Mason could pick enough examples to show that it was actually all down to Biden, but... actually, going back to what Mason said above, his words leading up to that were "Finally the left needs to get its head straight about the state. Either you want state power through elections, in which case you support the state having a legal monopoly of armed force (not guns bcos 2nd Am). Or not... Either you want the state to do its job, under the rule of law, with legislative oversight, or you don't."
I think it's fair to say, that if you were going off what Mason says, about how you need to build a popular front with centrists that supports the state, the one thing you would advise Americans not to do would be to launch a big uprising fighting the police and burning down police stations and setting cop cars on fire, one that mostly takes place in Democrat-run cities and so clashes with Democrat-run administrations, because that is not a good way to build alliances with centrists. And yet, I don't think the events of last summer seriously undermined the fight against fascism in the US, so I reckon Mason's theses are flawed.
So basically BLM would be my short answer to that - the anti-racist/anti-police movements that have mostly operated under that banner can't really be reduced to the labour movement or even the radical left alone, but they also really don't look like the classical kind of Popular Front that Mason advocates either.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 9, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, that's a big question, but looking back over the past 4-5 years or so, I feel like the US has gone from having an emboldened, confident far-right that was on the march both figuratively and literally, to having pushed the far-right back a great deal. Cos life is complicated, I feel like there's probably enough evidence that I could cherry-pick examples to prove that it was the black bloc wotdunnit, or Mason could pick enough examples to show that it was actually all down to Biden, but... actually, going back to what Mason said above, his words leading up to that were "Finally the left needs to get its head straight about the state. Either you want state power through elections, in which case you support the state having a legal monopoly of armed force (not guns bcos 2nd Am). Or not... Either you want the state to do its job, under the rule of law, with legislative oversight, or you don't."
> I think it's fair to say, that if you were going off what Mason says, about how you need to build a popular front with centrists that supports the state, the one thing you would advise Americans not to do would be to launch a big uprising fighting the police and burning down police stations and setting cop cars on fire, one that mostly takes place in Democrat-run cities and so clashes with Democrat-run administrations, because that is not a good way to build alliances with centrists. And yet, I don't think the events of last summer seriously undermined the fight against fascism in the US, so I reckon Mason's theses are flawed.
> So basically BLM would be my short answer to that - the anti-racist/anti-police movements that have mostly operated under that banner can't really be reduced to the labour movement or even the radical left alone, but they also really don't look like the classical kind of Popular Front that Mason advocates either.


Rushed post here as on lunch and phone, hopefully makes sense:...

I hear that but when it's come to the crunch it was the state  + corporations (social media) that really shut down Trump after the Capitol riots, and that took the wind out of the grassroots (to some extent).

Historically fascists have come to power with the support of significant sections of the MC, corporations and sections of the state... Trump had ticks in a lot of those boxes tbh, but didn't tip the overall control of power within those sections. I guess what Paul Mason is appealing to is primarily aimed to people within those positions of power. 

It's an interesting point about BLM ... Seems to me BLM on balance won the moral argument in the States, though it obviously polarises opinion. BLM raised awareness of fascism and authoritarianism within US institutions... I'm not sure it totally undermines Paul Masons argument, though potentially shutting down dissent is the slippery contradictory slope his argument is founded on, which is what I think you are saying.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 9, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I think it's fair to say, that if you were going off what Mason says, about how you need to build a popular front with centrists that supports the state, the one thing you would advise Americans not to do would be to launch a big uprising fighting the police and burning down police stations and setting cop cars on fire, one that mostly takes place in Democrat-run cities and so clashes with Democrat-run administrations, because that is not a good way to build alliances with centrists. And yet, I don't think the events of last summer seriously undermined the fight against fascism in the US, so I reckon Mason's theses are flawed.
> So basically BLM would be my short answer to that - the anti-racist/anti-police movements that have mostly operated under that banner can't really be reduced to the labour movement or even the radical left alone, but they also really don't look like the classical kind of Popular Front that Mason advocates either.


Mason's warblings about popular front's are delusional, I don't just mean they are silly, though they are, but they are a total fantasy.

There are arguments for and against popular frontism as a tactic (and where and when that tactic is appropriate) but they are largely academic because at the present there is no opportunity for a popular front in most countries, certainly not in the US, UK or most of the EU countries.

When the popular fronts were formed pre-war you had hard left (don't like that term but it will do here) groups that could command significant support. Sure they were often smaller than the liberal and centre-left parties but they still have a level of support (the French CP took 8% in 1932 which was a poor result, nowadays most hard left groups would kill their grandmothers for that type of polling) that meant that they could be players in any alliance with social democrats/liberals.

It is delusional to suggest that the equivalent is true today. Sure socialists in the US may vote for Biden, may work with Democrats, may even work for Democrats but it is ridiculous to suggest that this represents some sort of popular front, to do so is just cloud cuckoo. It might not be the choice I'd make but I can understand why individuals might work with the Democrats, but no one should pretend that doing so is some sort of popular front.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Rushed post here as on lunch and phone, hopefully makes sense:...
> 
> I hear that but when it's come to the crunch it was the state  + corporations (social media) that really shut down Trump after the Capitol riots, and that took the wind out of the grassroots (to some extent).
> 
> ...


Yeah, again reality's always tricky and has lots of moving parts and stuff, but I suppose I'd ask how far the Capitol riots were an actual turning point/something that had the potential to go much further than it ended up going. Easy to say this in retrospect, I suppose, but looking back it looks like January 6th was kind of the last gasp of a movement, I still think that the period from around November 2016-summer 2017 was when you had more of a confident and offensive far right. I suppose people can pursue different strategies, and I'm not going to argue that the January 6th rioters shouldn't have been prosecuted or whatever, but my concern is that classic Popular Fronts have meant adopting a kind of lowest common denominator acceptable platform. As redsquirrel says, there's no chance of that actually happening in a functioning way anyway, but in so far as the logic of Mason's argument seems to point towards ditching any policies or movements that aren't acceptable to centrist Democrats it seems dodgy to me.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 10, 2021)

LOL


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 13, 2021)

I want to think of a joke to go here but I really can't think of any punchline that could be funnier than "radical social democrat into rhizomes".


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 13, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I want to think of a joke to go here but I really can't think of any punchline that could be funnier than "radical social democrat into rhizomes".


Maybe he's trying to say that he's not a безродный космополит


----------



## tim (Jul 13, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I think he's still rattled about all the criticism from the left he's been getting recently:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently we're all tankies. What a wanker.



Yes, wanking against the Urban 75 Armoured Division. We'll probably skid on his spilt seed and end up in a ditch


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 13, 2021)

tim said:


> Yes, wanking against the Urban 75 Armoured Division. We'll probably skid on his spilt seed and end up in a ditch


Something something naval infantry something seamen blasted all over the place something


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 2, 2021)




----------



## hitmouse (Aug 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>



that didn't last long, whatever it was.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 3, 2021)

Madder by the day..


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Madder by the day..


Even worse is the follow-up tweet


> “The route to power for a transformative left is by gaining moral and intellectual leadership of the whole nation.”


Who needs the working class when you have the moral and intellectual leaders.
He really is following the same path as people like Cohen and Aaronovitch, defence of democracy, "radical democracy" 

What is really pathetic is going down this path while pretending that you are still some sort of socialist.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2021)




----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>



Terry Nation's Daleks
John Christopher's Tripods


----------



## ska invita (Aug 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>



I don't get it?
Is the joke there isn't really a threat of neofascism and he's delusional?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Madder by the day..


What's the mad bit? Gesticulating?


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> What's the mad bit? Gesticulating?



The Idea that promotion of a book about the rise of fascism means there's actually a rise of fascism.

Plus, y'know, Paul Mason.


----------



## Humberto (Aug 3, 2021)

I don't think Fascism is back 'of its own accord', and very arguable whether it is 'back' at this stage. 

It's not 'wrong-headed' people, it's class interest and a system worship by the powerful and rich that only benefits the powerful and rich. Fascism is an anti-communism tool of the powerful/rich.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 4, 2021)

Humberto said:


> I don't think Fascism is back 'of its own accord', and very arguable whether it is 'back' at this stage.
> 
> It's not 'wrong-headed' people, it's class interest and a system worship by the powerful and rich that only benefits the powerful and rich. Fascism is an anti-communism tool of the powerful/rich.



The anti-socialist screed that Trump and his party have used over the past 5 years, the sheer contempt for the people, the use of racism, the caging of migrants, the use of the DoJ, the brutality of the cops, and the grifting certainly points in an ugly direction.

Of course, not all these elements are exclusive to that particular administration.


----------



## RedRedRose (Aug 4, 2021)

Alarmist rhetoric aside, if this book is referencing the alt-right populism of Trump and Bolsonaro—it's already rather dated.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 4, 2021)

RedRedRose said:


> Alarmist rhetoric aside, if this book is referencing the alt-right populism of Trump and Bolsonaro—it's already rather dated.


You don't think that the alt right is still very much alive, regardless of who is or isn't in office?


----------



## RedRedRose (Aug 4, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> You don't think that the alt right is still very much alive, regardless of who is or isn't in office?


Yes, but the video references these two amongst a couple of others.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 4, 2021)

RedRedRose said:


> Alarmist rhetoric aside, if this book is referencing the alt-right populism of Trump and Bolsonaro—it's already rather dated.


I'm genuinely pit-of-the-stomach scared about the continuing rise of neo-fascism in the coming decades - many others are already experiencing it in some shape or form.
Never mind what has happened to some arsehole Proud Boy or other, just look at the trends in european election results where ethno-nationalism is alive and well, before glancing over at the dictatorships the majority of the world population live under.
Techno-totalitarianism may take a particular form under the Chinese Communist Party, but the lessons for every other state are clear.
Democracy is being hollowed out globally. Like this book says, democracy may never have existed but we'll miss it when its gone.
Add in a failing economic model and the arrival of the climate change tipping point putting huge strains on material conditions across the world and theres only one direction of travel that seems likely, and its not anarcho-communism.


RedRedRose said:


> Yes, but the video references these two amongst a couple of others.


only fair to judge a book by reading it first rather than a simplistic trailer


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 4, 2021)

What's neo-fascism? How does it differ from fascism?
All these terms - post-capitalist, neo-fascist, neofeudalism - if they are going to be thrown around can people at least put some meat on the bones.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 4, 2021)

It's tempting to properly interrogate Mason on this. But that would involve buying the book. I'm going to watch the interview he did with the New Statesman and see what we can learn from this.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 7, 2021)

In among the outpouring of crap Mason sometimes remembers what this is all about and where he came from (literally and politically):


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 8, 2021)

A few threads this could go on, but it feels somewhat relevant to the discussion of (neo-)fascism and Mason's strategies above:








						Seven Theses on the Three-Way Fight
					

By Devin Zane Shaw   The seven theses I propose here were first published as part of a preface to T. Derbent’s  German Communist Resistance...




					threewayfight.blogspot.com
				




It's long so I've not actually finished reading it yet, but Three Way Fight generally has good intelligent stuff on it and what I've read so far seems pretty solid.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 3, 2021)

Adam Tooze dispatches the entire thesis of Mason’s ‘How to Fight Fascism’ in two paragraphs (also correctly identifies the shift of capital to Biden):









						Has Covid ended the neoliberal era? | Adam Tooze
					

The long read: The year 2020 exposed the risks and weaknesses of the market-driven global system like never before. It’s hard to avoid the sense that a turning point has been reached




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Sep 28, 2021)

“The deal I thought we had with Starmer...”
Fucking tool.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Adam Tooze dispatches the entire thesis of Mason’s ‘How to Fight Fascism’ in two paragraphs (also correctly identifies the shift of capital to Biden):


Have you read the book? I have... I dont think that contradicts the central arguments. Up for talking about it more if anyone who has read it fancies, but not worth it if its based on imagining what the book says.


----------



## chilango (Sep 28, 2021)

I'm not sure whether I'm entertained, saddened, worried or simply don't care about Bastani's relentless dissing of Mason at the moment.

It's quite something to witness though.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> “The deal I thought we had with Starmer...”
> Fucking tool.


Regarding his nonsense about PR, the Guardian actually printed a decent opinion piece spelling out exactly what PR means


> PR would make one party very powerful indeed: the Liberal Democrats. In fact, if MPs were allocated proportionately, the Lib Dems (and the SDP and Liberals before them) would have decided nearly every single British government in postwar history. While some commentators like to fantasise about the Lib Dems as left-of-centre fellow travellers, their recent record in government does not bear this out. When faced with the choice between giving the Conservatives a majority or supporting a Labour-led coalition in 2010, the Lib Dems opted for five years with the Conservatives, supporting some of the most vicious attacks to the British welfare state and public realm in recent history.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 28, 2021)

" This too is the building block for a governing coalition with Greens/PC/SNP..."   
" but one thing’s clear: Labour conference is an unparalleled theatre of class struggle; the party is no longer a“safe” component of British state infrastructure. That’s bcos of the mass radicalisation of left voters and activists (oh, and networks)."

Good to see a strategy for taking out the Tories and the Neo Fascists all in one swoop that doesn't have to engage  with the working classes as the class struggle is in the Labour Party conference


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 28, 2021)

chilango said:


> I'm not sure whether I'm entertained, saddened, worried or simply don't care about Bastani's relentless dissing of Mason at the moment.
> 
> It's quite something to witness though.


I can answer that, I absolutely do not care about what Bastani says about Paul Mason.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 28, 2021)

chilango said:


> I'm not sure whether I'm entertained, saddened, worried or simply don't care about Bastani's relentless dissing of Mason at the moment.
> 
> It's quite something to witness though.



Two bald men - politically speaking - fighting over the Labour Party comb


----------



## brogdale (Oct 24, 2021)

Short term memory loss.


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 27, 2022)

rekil said:


> According to nutter Gerry Downing who organised Vanessa Beeley's Marx Memorial Library gig, Eddie Dempsey (along with Alex Gordon) was her doorman. Maybe he has a valid workingclasscommunist reason for following Patrick Henningsen on the twitter machine and maybe he just approves of at least some of the 100% loon content.


Dunno if this should go here or on the main Beeley thread, but I've just realised that the two people who Downing thanked for doing security at Beeleyfest 2017, Dempsey's now RMT Assistant Gen Sec and Gordon is now President. Just got to hope them two are better at representing transport workers than they are at spotting loons. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## zahir (Feb 20, 2022)

Arrived in Kiev.


----------



## Riklet (Feb 20, 2022)

His video on there is so muddled.
Stop war, international solidarity, left pacifist mission, blame Putin, Ukranians will resist, we need help from the West.


----------



## keybored (Feb 20, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> ...I mean if I could wear a mask the whole time in public I bloody would.



This aged well.


----------



## LDC (Feb 20, 2022)

If there's something Ukrainians desperately need now it's a washed-up leftie journalist arriving there and spouting incoherent nonsense to the world on Twitter.


----------



## tim (Feb 20, 2022)

zahir said:


> Arrived in Kiev.




Just who you want to see when facing an existential crisis.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 20, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> If there's something Ukrainians desperately need now it's a washed-up leftie journalist arriving there and spouting incoherent nonsense to the world on Twitter.


tbf ive tried to read up on this conflict this week and theres not a lot of coherence out there from anyone


----------



## LDC (Feb 20, 2022)

ska invita said:


> tbf ive tried to read up on this conflict this week and theres not a lot of coherence out there from anyone



I think it's pretty clear what's going on _now_, the confusion is what _might _happen and then what to do about it.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 20, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think it's pretty clear what's going on _now_, the confusion is what _might _happen and then what to do about it.


kind of agree but weve got the UKs foreign secretary saying Russia is going to reform the Soviet Union and conquer the Baltic states, so even on the whats going on now i think theres a wide range of "opinion" out there


----------



## tim (Feb 20, 2022)

ska invita said:


> kind of agree but weve got the UKs foreign secretary saying Russia is going to reform the Soviet Union and conquer the Baltic states, so even on the whats going on now i think theres a wide range of "opinion" out there


Yes, if they're going to get their Empire back, we should get ours. 

They can have Alaska as well as Ukraine and Truss can negotiate with the Mexicans and the French for the lower 49.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 20, 2022)

zahir said:


> Arrived in Kiev.




Solidarity with the Ukrainian’s against the self appointed ‘public intellectual’. Mind you we’ve had to put up with his brain dribble for years…


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 20, 2022)

If the ASLEF gen sec is knocking around Kiev with Mason, and the RMT leadership love to hang around with the Ghost Brigade, does that mean that any hostilities in Ukraine would be accompanied by a similar war breaking out on Britain's railways?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 20, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> If the ASLEF gen sec is knocking around Kiev with Mason, and the RMT leadership love to hang around with the Ghost Brigade, does that mean that any hostilities in Ukraine would be accompanied by a similar war breaking out on Britain's railways?


That RMT motion. Smh


----------



## Diamond (Feb 20, 2022)

Comes across as a bit dim, does he not - a Dave Spart type.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Feb 20, 2022)

keybored said:


> This aged well.


Turns out it doesn't really help anxiety at all, who knew!


----------



## zahir (Feb 20, 2022)

tbf this is a bit more interesting:









						Learning to say “Goodbye Lenin”
					

A critique of the IST statement on the Ukraine war




					paulmasonnews.medium.com


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 22, 2022)

zahir said:


> tbf this is a bit more interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Though still less interesting than the reply:









						Ukraine and imperialism — Alex Callinicos replies to Paul Mason
					

How should we oppose imperialism?




					socialistworker.co.uk


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 22, 2022)

I mean, from a quick glance over them I think the Mason argument is definitely the more interesting one there (not saying that he's right, but it'd take a bit more effort to think about where I agree and where I disagree with him, whereas Callinicos is just Callinicos). And I notice that Callinicos doesn't object to Mason joining "Lenin and Luxemburg" as if both took the same position on these matters. This bit of posturing definitely grates, though: 
"This, in turn, means I don’t have the luxury of gestural slogans like “Dissolve NATO” or “Disarm Europe!” — (because unlile the SWP I actually have to go on doorsteps in places like Plymouth, Portsmouth and Barrow and convince them to vote Labour)." If he just said "people in my tradition" or something I'd be a little bit more sympathetic, but as it is I find myself thinking "really? Paul Mason has to go round people's houses in Plymouth and in Portsmouth and in Barrow? He must be a very busy man, also no wonder Labour's so fucked."


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 22, 2022)

The hilarious thing about that correspondence is that it’s written in the tone of April 1917, with more than a frisson of expectation that, in 100 years, a Trotskyist movement will be teasing out nuances of meaning from the reproduction of these letters in _The Collected Works of A. Callinicos vol.XXVIII _(Cliff Press, London, 2096)


----------



## zahir (Feb 25, 2022)

Paul Mason interviewed on Byline TV (from about 49 minutes in)


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 25, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> The hilarious thing about that correspondence is that it’s written in the tone of April 1917, with more than a frisson of expectation that, in 100 years, a Trotskyist movement will be teasing out nuances of meaning from the reproduction of these letters in _The Collected Works of A. Callinicos vol.XXVIII _(Cliff Press, London, 2096)


 "A Popular Front with liberal imperialism"


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 1, 2022)

He is playing a blinder on Twitter ,  fast becoming an ex Trot General Jumbo


----------



## nogojones (Mar 9, 2022)

Once upon a time it was all "lets arm the workers"...


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 9, 2022)

nogojones said:


> Once upon a time it was all "lets arm the workers"...
> 
> View attachment 313590


A people’s NATO


----------



## belboid (Mar 9, 2022)

He was always for a workers bomb. He's just changed his definition of worker.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> A people’s NATO


A People's Liberation Atlantic Treaty Organisation


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 9, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> A People's Liberation Atlantic Treaty Organisation


Wonder what happened to his Workers Defence Squads , were they disbanded or did they retire gracefully when his book came out ?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 9, 2022)

nogojones said:


> Once upon a time it was all "lets arm the workers"...
> 
> View attachment 313590


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Wonder what happened to his Workers Defence Squads , were they disbanded or did they retire gracefully when his book came out ?


----------



## Dom Traynor (Mar 10, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> A People's Liberation Atlantic Treaty Organisation


People's Ordinance Treaty Advancing True Organisation?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2022)

People's Ordinancy True Treaty Youth

my favourite is still a mate who started the British Anti Nuclear Group.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 11, 2022)

'Putin stooges'...  what a vile prick. Mason has collapsed politically. Utterly bewildered as he flounders in his new role as the hard man of middle class liberalism..


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 11, 2022)

Ask not what the people's bomb can do for you, ask what you can do for the people's bomb. Incredible iron fist flex from Comrade Mason


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 11, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 'Putin stooges'...  what a vile prick. Mason has collapsed politically. Utterly bewildered as he flounders in his new role as the hard man of middle class liberalism..



The disturbing thing is that he'd find a political home with some posters on here with his   'peoples Nato, popular front against fascism, Putin stooges for Brexit' lines.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 11, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The disturbing thing is that he'd find a political home with some posters on here


 Which posters would those be?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 11, 2022)

.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 11, 2022)

Did he ever manage to persuade Stoya to come to Athens? Maybe he'll have better luck with Kiev.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 11, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Did he ever manage to persuade Stoya to come to Athens? Maybe he'll have better luck with *Kyiv*.


FTFY - don't want to lose the hitmouse to the WDS hitlist


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 11, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The disturbing thing is that he'd find a political home with some posters on here with his   'peoples Nato, popular front against fascism, Putin stooges for Brexit' lines.


I typed similar but then thought better of it. But, you’re spot on. He’s merely a comparatively high profile example of the disorientation and subsequent degeneration.


----------



## splonkydoo (Mar 12, 2022)

He is bound to go up another notch when spice supplies from China finally dwindle


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 12, 2022)

More from Mason…









						Ukraine: Outlines of a Marxist position
					

It’s time for the left to break with Stalinism for good




					paulmasonnews.medium.com
				




He’s quite right in his characterisation of some of the left regarding Russia. He’s also right to that we are seeing the end of American hegemony. But from there the analysis flows into some otherworldly positions. The left to organise to ‘reform NATO’ into a ‘defensive only’ alliance (yeah, right), a demand for State-directed and debt-financed investment to make Europe self-sufficient in food, energy and military technology (under neo-liberalism) and, as always now, popular frontism against the enemies of liberal democracy.

He can put Marxist in the title, but this is the precise opposite. It’s a call for the left to fold itself into Biden and Starmer’s politics ultimately.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 12, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> More from Mason…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 15, 2022)

Mason v Owen Jones clash. Can the left recover from the unfortunate flagellation between two titans of the working class movement?…


----------



## emanymton (Mar 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> More from Mason…
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"For the left, then, there is a big decision to take. We can sit on our hands, quoting Lenin; or we can accept the systemic nature of the conflict and take a side in it, using our expertise and connections to turn the underground opposition networks in Belarus and Russia into outright revolts"


You know I think they could probably do without our "expertise".


But, yes somewhat worryingly I did find myself agreeing with broad analysis then he started drawing conclusions about what action to take and just urmm no.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 15, 2022)

emanymton said:


> But, yes somewhat worryingly I did find myself agreeing with broad analysis then he started drawing conclusions about what action to take and just urmm no.



I’m enjoying Mason calling out the sections of the left who are Putin apologists and those who pretend these types don’t exist (types who whilst minuscule in number wield a disproportionate influence on what passes for the left in Britain today: thereby damaging the rest of us who don’t hold anti imperialism of fools politics). 

But, once Mason steps into the realm of alternatives it’s time to stop reading. He’s no better on theoretical underpinnings either. His rant about Foucault today - whilst essentially correct - was also barmy.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Mason v Owen Jones clash. Can the left recover from the unfortunate flagellation between two titans of the working class movement?…



A new challenger appears!

ETA this response proper made me laugh though:


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 15, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> A new challenger appears!



Priceless. We only need the CPB to weigh in and it’s a near full set of cobweb left twats..


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 16, 2022)

Irony just curled up and died


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 16, 2022)

On Mason, I see him just as a noisy irritant. He's like next door's clockradio alarm that they forgot to turn off whilst away on holiday.

 A (not very brilliant) loudmouth with a Che Guevara cap and a media profile. Probably his recent deranged utterances confirm the impression that he's better off ignored.


----------



## JimW (Mar 16, 2022)

Well, I think we've all let Paul down badly. He used to be such a nice lad when he was being a journalist properly and now look what we've made him do.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 16, 2022)

I reckon I'd still go out to a Northern Soul night with him, mind. Although maybe that'd be a mistake if there were any uppers around, I can imagine that maybe we'd both be coming up and just as I was about to ask if he felt like dancing he'd get fixated on trying to get me to admit that being a consistent internationalist meant supporting NATO airstrikes.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 16, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I reckon I'd still go out to a Northern Soul night with him, mind. Although maybe that'd be a mistake if there were any uppers around, I can imagine that maybe we'd both be coming up and just as I was about to ask if he felt like dancing he'd get fixated on trying to get me to admit that being a consistent internationalist meant supporting NATO airstrikes.


hitmouse used to write slashfic on LiveJournal and had a 'Favourite Left Sect Banner' Tumblr and I claim my five pounds!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 16, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I reckon I'd still go out to a Northern Soul night with him, mind. Although maybe that'd be a mistake if there were any uppers around, I can imagine that maybe we'd both be coming up and just as I was about to ask if he felt like dancing he'd get fixated on trying to get me to admit that being a consistent internationalist meant supporting NATO airstrikes.


‘Mad Paul Mason and his Popular Front’ would be a great name for a northern soul beat combo…


----------



## splonkydoo (Mar 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> ‘Mad Paul Mason and his Popular Front’ would be a great name for a northern soul beat combo…



 Northern Spice night


----------



## Dom Traynor (Mar 18, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I reckon I'd still go out to a Northern Soul night with him, mind. Although maybe that'd be a mistake if there were any uppers around, I can imagine that maybe we'd both be coming up and just as I was about to ask if he felt like dancing he'd get fixated on trying to get me to admit that being a consistent internationalist meant supporting NATO airstrikes.


We've all hung out with Lefties like that right?


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 18, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> We've all hung out with Lefties like that right?


That story may have been partially inspired by a memory of running into an AWLer on a night out, yes.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Mar 18, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> That story may have been partially inspired by a memory of running into an AWLer on a night out, yes.


Haha me too bet it wasn't the same one though


----------



## teqniq (Apr 8, 2022)

This made me chuckle just now:


----------



## belboid (Apr 8, 2022)

teqniq said:


> This made me chuckle just now:



sadly, Mason is actually right in that particular thread 

(I presume it's this one)


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2022)




----------



## The39thStep (May 31, 2022)




----------



## belboid (May 31, 2022)

The39thStep said:


>



He’d be the MP for Old Trafford.   Must be a joke in there somewhere


----------



## A380 (May 31, 2022)

I loved his California Carafes back in the day.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 1, 2022)

The transitional demands are out…


----------



## magneze (Jun 1, 2022)

Preparing to take over from Keith?


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 1, 2022)

The right wing headbangers in the Jewish Labour Movement (which you do not need to be a Labour Member or Jewish to be a member) have already branded him 'hard left' (lol) and an anti-Semite so Keith is going to have to expel him before he gets to the short list.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 7, 2022)

"Lynne,  idea based on my people's vigilance commission by mapping Putin stooges for political outing, instant rebuttal, PayPal disinvestment. etc . First step to peoples MI5"


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> "Lynne,  idea based on my people's vigilance commission by mapping Putin stooges for political outing, instant rebuttal, PayPal disinvestment. etc . First step to peoples MI5"
> 
> 
> View attachment 325992


MY5 ---> OUR5 👍


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 8, 2022)

This is absolutely barking mad:









						Paul Mason's covert intelligence-linked plot to destroy The Grayzone exposed - The Grayzone
					

Leaked emails reveal British journalist Paul Mason plotting with an intel contractor to destroy The Grayzone through “relentless deplatforming” and a “full nuclear legal” attack. The scheme is part of a wider planned assault on the UK left.




					thegrayzone.com
				




Not sure if this article is a giant whoosh / pisstake or the real thing.


----------



## LDC (Jun 8, 2022)

It's The Grayzone. Real absolute biffer loons. Standard article for them isn't it, plenty on the left will love it.


----------



## LDC (Jun 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> "Lynne,  idea based on my people's vigilance commission by mapping Putin stooges for political outing, instant rebuttal, PayPal disinvestment. etc . First step to peoples MI5"
> 
> 
> View attachment 325992



Lol at the 'Campists' with no links to anyone. Lonely little lives.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 8, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> This is absolutely barking mad:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its probably all three . 

The real thing was Mason's weird and wonderful  article in the New Statesman archive.ph in which he puts forward the idea of a peoples front to fight disinformation, therefore, disrupting the pro-Putin algorithms :



> If this is an information war, the solution is to arm the people and to strengthen institutions. Society is not just made up of atomised individuals plus the state: we have trade unions, parties, churches, NGOs and many other organised communities. Each has a right to operate a counter-disinformation strategy, and to draw on guidance provided by the state.



 Stretford and Urmston Constituency Labour Party  have no fucking idea what they are letting themselves in for. If he doesn't get the job he'll launch a second vote campaign from his time machine with his supporters press ganged into a militia fighting a Bonapartist Regime and at weekends volunteering for NATO


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Stretford and Urmston Constituency Labour Party  have no fucking idea what they are letting themselves in for. If he doesn't get the job he'll launch a second vote campaign from his time machine with his supporters press ganged into a militia fighting a Bonapartist Regime and at weekends volunteering for NATO


_
excitable substack article entitled "A Situation of Dual Power"_


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 8, 2022)

Mason should simply have used a secure email system to send his racist maps around like... er... Proton Mail lol

Wonder who dropped him in the shite?


----------



## LDC (Jun 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Its probably all three .
> 
> The real thing was Mason's weird and wonderful  article in the New Statesman archive.ph in which he puts forward the idea of a peoples front to fight disinformation, therefore, disrupting the pro-Putin algorithms :
> 
> ...



He's bit right though isn't he? (Like that flowchart of his, that's got a helping of truth in it as well.) Part of the reason for the proliferation of this fringe loon tendency among us (Syria pro-Assad white helmets conspiracy, Covid denialism, pro-Putin stuff, etc.) is the weakness of some of the left, and that could be corrected through decent long term re-engagement with people and putting the work in to pushing 'better' and more coherent political tendencies, and some of those organisations he mentions could out some of their output into that. Calling it a 'people's front against disinformation' is over-egging the pudding perhaps, but it's not without merit?


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 8, 2022)

I'm not sure about many of the geocities-website-and-grainy-selfshot-videos-in-front-of-a-stained-portrait-of-Mao groupuscules listed, but describing "Conter" and it's links to "Scottish Nationalism" as somehow part of a pro-Putin sphere of influence is beyond laughable. Conter is three or four folk who write well but who few other than politics geeks in the twittersphere have heard of. There is no evdience whatsoever that they are pro-Putin. Sheer nonsense.


----------



## LDC (Jun 8, 2022)

No idea, but some of those links around RT/Sputnik, Galloway, Williamson, etc. and all the Code Pink, No Cold War, etc. are pretty spot-on. Some of them have clear links to the Vanessa Beeleys and Eva Bartletts of the world, as well as some dabbling with openly alt-right stuff like Galloway and his Workers Party of Britain do. TBH it looks like something he cooked up in the early hours after a night out on coke that never should have seen the light of day.

No engagement with that world, especially via the internet/social media, is going to go well. It's impossible to 'win', they'll love the attention, and everyone just comes out of it looking madder than they were before.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 8, 2022)

Yeah sure everyone knows about Galloway & the Worker's Party- we don't need Paul's help with that. As to the wisdom of publishing this "map" (seemingly an attempt to mirror the graphic of the Koch Brothers' influence on the alt/ far right), agree, it should have remained in someone's spam folder.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> "Lynne,  idea based on my people's vigilance commission by mapping Putin stooges for political outing, instant rebuttal, PayPal disinvestment. etc . First step to peoples MI5"
> 
> 
> View attachment 325992



I'm not familiar with the Russian stuff, but the lines from China are 100% accurate. Where it gets iffy is the lines from Fiona Edwards to Stop The War and from Roy Singham to Progressive International. These people are members of these groups but the chart seems to imply that they exercise a great deal of influence over them, which is debatable.

But he is right - Code Pink and No Cold War and their wider network have served as conduits for millions of dollars to fund propaganda campaigns to cover up the genocide in Xinjiang, and their head people are very close to Chinese state institutions, e.g. think tanks and Huawei. It is pretty much certain that they are part of the Chinese Communist Party's United Front Work Group and they should be no platformed by the left.

Read more here:








						The Big Business of Uyghur Genocide Denial
					

A network of charities funnel millions into left-wing platforms that take Beijing’s side on the genocide allegations.




					newlinesmag.com
				




And John Ross of Socialist Action is a Senior Fellow of Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies at Renmin University in Beijing. He literally works for a Chinese Communist Party think tank and writes for Chinese publications, and has engaged in Uyghur genocide denial and propaganda in support of China's annexation of the South China Sea. He can get to fuck.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 8, 2022)

Strangely he misses out the other Putin sympathisers on the fringes of Scottsh politics- Alex Salmond (host of RT daily show and praise of Putin in the media 7-8 years ago) and ALBA (every weirdo conspriacy loon & gender-neutral toilets monomaniac on the fringes of the Scottish independence debate). Much more obvious & credible than the smear against Conter.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 8, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I'm not familiar with the Russian stuff, but the lines from China are 100% accurate. Where it gets iffy is the lines from Fiona Edwards to Stop The War and from Roy Singham to Progressive International. These people are members of these groups but the chart seems to imply that they exercise a great deal of influence over them, which is debatable.
> 
> But he is right - Code Pink and No Cold War and their wider network have served as conduits for millions of dollars to fund propaganda campaigns to cover up the genocide in Xinjiang, and their head people are very close to Chinese state institutions, e.g. think tanks and Huawei. It is pretty much certain that they are part of the Chinese Communist Party's United Front Work Group and they should be no platformed by the left.
> 
> ...


You signing up for Pauls's initiative or just going indy?


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> You signing up for Pauls's initiative or just going indy?


I don't really have time for this sort of stuff these days, but he is right that the left needs to clean house on groups linked to Russian and Chinese intelligence. If the left ever gets a sniff at power again like we did in 2017 then not cleaning house will destroy our chances, as indeed letting this kind of thing fester unchallenged did in 2019.

To say nothing of the fact that we shouldn't tolerate fascist fellow travellers pretending to be leftists while making a living from genocide cover ups.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 8, 2022)

LDC said:


> He's bit right though isn't he? (Like that flowchart of his, that's got a helping of truth in it as well.) Part of the reason for the proliferation of this fringe loon tendency among us (Syria pro-Assad white helmets conspiracy, Covid denialism, pro-Putin stuff, etc.) is the weakness of some of the left, and that could be corrected through decent long term re-engagement with people and putting the work in to pushing 'better' and more coherent political tendencies, and some of those organisations he mentions could out some of their output into that. Calling it a 'people's front against disinformation' is over-egging the pudding perhaps, but it's not without merit?


Actually some of what he would  describe as 'pro putin' ie the stop the war/stop Nato sort of stuff is the line of some of the left in Europe better connected with 'the people' ie those who stopped shipments of arms from NATO and can pull out a few thousand on demonstrations. 

Lets under egg the pudding . So you'd sign up for the right to operate a counter-disinformation strategy, and to draw on guidance provided by the state as he is suggesting?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 8, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I don't really have time for this sort of stuff these days, but he is right that the left needs to clean house on groups linked to Russian and Chinese intelligence. If the left ever gets a sniff at power again like we did in 2017 then not cleaning house will destroy our chances, as indeed letting this kind of thing fester unchallenged did in 2019.
> 
> To say nothing of the fact that we shouldn't tolerate fascist fellow travellers pretending to be leftists while making a living from genocide cover ups.


Ok, I think I understand your position  ie he's right but you don't have the time to be involved in it


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 8, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> I'm not sure about many of the geocities-website-and-grainy-selfshot-videos-in-front-of-a-stained-portrait-of-Mao groupuscules listed, but describing "Conter" and it's links to "Scottish Nationalism" as somehow part of a pro-Putin sphere of influence is beyond laughable. Conter is three or four folk who write well but who few other than politics geeks in the twittersphere have heard of. There is no evdience whatsoever that they are pro-Putin. Sheer nonsense.


Never heard of them tbh.  Quite interesting on the selection of Trot groups , I cant see the SWP or SP on the blacklist but splits from their traditions ie Counterfire and Socialist Appeal are and STW are. Obviously no AWL .

Whats Burgon and Sultana's backgrounds politically?


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 8, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> I'm not sure about many of the geocities-website-and-grainy-selfshot-videos-in-front-of-a-stained-portrait-of-Mao groupuscules listed, but describing "Conter" and it's links to "Scottish Nationalism" as somehow part of a pro-Putin sphere of influence is beyond laughable. Conter is three or four folk who write well but who few other than politics geeks in the twittersphere have heard of. There is no evdience whatsoever that they are pro-Putin. Sheer nonsense.


Aye, Conter are basically Cat Boyd and David Jamieson with occasional input from a couple of other former Swappies.  (Glasgow ACG has had dealings with them, and they’ve interviewed a couple of our members for their podcast).  They’re Leninists, but I’d be surprised if they were in any meaningful way “pro-Putin”.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 8, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Strangely he misses out the other Putin sympathisers on the fringes of Scottsh politics- Alex Salmond (host of RT daily show and praise of Putin in the media 7-8 years ago) and ALBA (every weirdo conspriacy loon & gender-neutral toilets monomaniac on the fringes of the Scottish independence debate). Much more obvious & credible than the smear against Conter.


Agreed.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 8, 2022)

.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Never heard of them tbh.  Quite interesting on the selection of Trot groups , I cant see the SWP or SP on the blacklist but splits from their traditions ie Counterfire and Socialist Appeal are and STW are. Obviously no AWL .
> 
> Whats Burgon and Sultana's backgrounds politically?



Burgon appears to have had his views shaped by stories of the Miners' Strike and participation in the anti-Iraq War protests. Ex solicitor, whole career in Yorkshire Labour, GMB affiliated (chair of GMB parliamentary group), strong Corbyn loyalist. Burgon seems clumsy with words and not hugely bright but still someone whose heart is in the right place.

Sultana has strong Union backing (CWU / FBU & endorsed by Momentum) but also was someone obliged to remove their signatures from the deranged STWC statement criticising NATO's "eastward expansion".

Conter is here: not a bad site. Yes the intellectual background is Leninist but tbh you may as well describe yourself as a Whig or a Corn Law reformer. The term "Leninist" is abidingly irrelevant in 2022.









						Conter | Against The Scottish Establishment
					






					www.conter.scot


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 8, 2022)




----------



## The39thStep (Jun 8, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Burgon appears to have had his views shaped by stories of the Miners' Strike and participation in the anti-Iraq War protests. Ex solicitor, whole career in Yorkshire Labour, GMB affiliated (chair of GMB parliamentary group), strong Corbyn loyalist. Burgon seems clumsy with words and not hugely bright but still someone whose heart is in the right place.
> 
> Sultana has strong Union backing (CWU / FBU & endorsed by Momentum) but also was someone obliged to remove their signatures from the deranged STWC statement criticising NATO's "eastward expansion".
> 
> ...


I've come across both Burgon and Sultana before ( you are spot on about Burgon heart in right place but everything else all over the shop type) but I wondered if they had been in or around a Trot group.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 8, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I mean if I could wear a mask the whole time in public I bloody would.



And how prophetic those words turned out to be


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 8, 2022)

Relieved to see no mention of Proletarian Democracy. 

Surely Red London exist purely to end up on one of these charts and can now retire (if they haven't already?)


----------



## teqniq (Jun 8, 2022)

LDC said:


> It's The Grayzone. Real absolute biffer loons. Standard article for them isn't it, *plenty on the left will love it.*


Yes, I am seeing this on Twitter unfortunately.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 8, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Yes, I am seeing this on Twitter unfortunately.



Paul Mason not denying that stuff like the map is real though, plus it seems entirely on brand for him.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 8, 2022)

YouSir said:


> Paul Mason not denying that stuff like the map is real though, plus it seems entirely on brand for him.


Mason is evidently barking but people linking to the Grayzone and similar sites is frankly depressing.

This site I have found a useful resource to link people to by way of a counterweight:









						Islamophobia turns left: Ben Norton and the Grayzone Project
					

Post updated 9 March to include new material from the SPLC, which covers very similar ground to this post, in much more detail. The next d...




					brockley.blogspot.com


----------



## YouSir (Jun 8, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Mason is evidently barking but people linking to the Grayzone and similar sites is frankly depressing.
> 
> This site I have found a useful resource to link people to by way of a counterweight:
> 
> ...



Never heard of Grayzone before tbh and only seen people linking now because of the 'hacked' material. Would say people taking GZ seriously are considerably less of an issue that people taking Paul Mason seriously.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 8, 2022)

Lads I'm not "taking it seriously" (see my original posting) and I am well aware of who runs the grayzone and taht they are to be treated wearing an asbestos suit.

It is not irrelevant to the subject of this thread.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 8, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Lads I'm not "taking it seriously" (see my original posting) and I am well aware of who runs the grayzone and taht they are to be treated wearing an asbestos suit.
> 
> It is not irrelevant to the subject of this thread.


yes this


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 8, 2022)

In one way I'm surprised "The Catholics" and "Liverpool" aren't on his scummy map.

eta. that doesn't mean I need Mason to tell me the likes of Williamson and Galloway are twats. But "the black community" - "Scottish Nationalists". FFS.


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 8, 2022)

Not a massive fan of Jones but Mason has truly started his Lady Gaga years....


----------



## LDC (Jun 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Lets under egg the pudding . So you'd sign up for the right to operate a counter-disinformation strategy, and to draw on guidance provided by the state as he is suggesting?



What, is that a serious question to me?! I wouldn't go near Mason or any of the people mentioned on here. Looking at them on the internet and depairing/laughing/raging is the limit of my engagement thanks, have much better things to be doing in real life.


----------



## LDC (Jun 8, 2022)

Fedayn said:


> Not a massive fan of Jones but Mason has truly started his Lady Gaga years....




Mint Press _are _dodgy as fuck though. And 'independent' whatever that counts for, like _The Canary_ is independent as well, but both are in the same ballpark of shit politics, bordering on conspiracy theory stuff sometimes. And the Mint Press cartoonist is Latuff who has for years made horrendously racist cartoons.


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 8, 2022)

LDC said:


> Mint Press _are _dodgy as fuck though. And their cartoonist is Latuff who has for years made dodgy cartoons.


Which has what to do with Masons remarks to Jones and Walker? I am not a fan of Mint Press, it is Mason at issue here.


----------



## chilango (Jun 8, 2022)

Fucking hell I watched that Jones, Walker, Mason video. Hopefully nobody else will. What an absolute bunch of pricks.


----------



## LDC (Jun 8, 2022)

Fedayn said:


> Which has what to do with Masons remarks to Jones and Walker? I am not a fan of Mint Press, it is Mason at issue here.



The Tweets you posted were all from a Mint Press person, including an advert for them. If you're not a fan of them either maybe get your info from elsewhere rather than posting Tweets from them then it won't make it look like you think they're OK.

Mason, Jones, and Walker can all fuck off as poisonous political liabilities if you ask me.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 8, 2022)

chilango said:


> Fucking hell I watched that Jones, Walker, Mason video. Hopefully nobody else will. What an absolute bunch of pricks.


You just made me want to watch it.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 8, 2022)

LDC said:


> Looking at them on the internet and depairing/laughing/raging is the limit of my engagement thanks, have much better things to be doing in real life.


This, imv, should be the default position of the left. Mason and the tin foil hat brigade do not deserve the amount of attention they get and should not be rewarded with it when spewing effluent (outside of obscure gossip forums, obv ).


----------



## chilango (Jun 8, 2022)

emanymton said:


> You just made me want to watch it.


I wouldn't.

They're not exactly political heavyweights. Yet Mason still managed to look like he didn't know what he was on about.

Tldr: ...but Ukraine! ...but Israel! Putin mouthpiece! Saudi headchopper!


----------



## Sue (Jun 8, 2022)

emanymton said:


> You just made me want to watch it.


I'm prepared to take chilango's word for it tbh.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 8, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I'm not familiar with the Russian stuff, but the lines from China are 100% accurate. Where it gets iffy is the lines from Fiona Edwards to Stop The War and from Roy Singham to Progressive International. These people are members of these groups but the chart seems to imply that they exercise a great deal of influence over them, which is debatable.


Dunno about Singham/PI but Fiona Edwards is a national officer of StW, so that bit seems fair enough. And it's not like StW's general politics are that much better, Galloway, Nigel, etc.


The39thStep said:


> Never heard of them tbh.  Quite interesting on the selection of Trot groups , I cant see the SWP or SP on the blacklist but splits from their traditions ie Counterfire and Socialist Appeal are and STW are. Obviously no AWL .


I can totally see why you'd include Appeal but not the SP (if you were going to spend your time making that map in the first place, which is a big if). The SP's never really gone in for that kind of anti-imperialism, which is why I was a bit surprised that Appeal seem to be so pro-Russia. Can't be arsed wading through the SWP and Counterfire's respective positions on the war to see if there's much substantive difference between them, though.


The39thStep said:


> Whats Burgon and Sultana's backgrounds politically?


I was wondering that, does anyone know if there's any reason for the line from Socialist Action to Burgon or is that just a totally inexplicable flourish?


steeplejack said:


> Burgon appears to have had his views shaped by stories of the Miners' Strike and participation in the anti-Iraq War protests. Ex solicitor, whole career in Yorkshire Labour, GMB affiliated (chair of GMB parliamentary group), strong Corbyn loyalist. Burgon seems clumsy with words and not hugely bright but still someone whose heart is in the right place.


That seems fair enough, and also the most glowing praise I can imagine anyone giving to pretty much any current Labour MP.


danny la rouge said:


>



It's kind of bothering me how Blumenthal seems entirely unable to locate where the center of that chart is. Surely Andrew Murray and the Morning Star are right at the centre, and Jeremy Corbyn's some way off to the top right? Granted, it's not the most objectionable thing Blumenthal's ever got wrong, but still.


LDC said:


> Mint Press _are _dodgy as fuck though. And 'independent' whatever that counts for, like _The Canary_ is independent as well, but both are in the same ballpark of shit politics, bordering on conspiracy theory stuff sometimes.


Getting into how the Canary, for all its shitness, has still provided some of the best coverage of the Bristol trials of any UK left/media outlet would be a whole other rant.


chilango said:


> Fucking hell I watched that Jones, Walker, Mason video. Hopefully nobody else will. What an absolute bunch of pricks.


I think there's a subtle clue in the title that you could've picked up on.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 8, 2022)

The real issue here isn't whether Mint Press are as dodgy as fuck or whether Greyzone is or whether the Mason map of left groups is accurate or inaccurate is it? Nor is it do posters like/hate/ really don't know about so and so's view on the Russian invasion. We are all old and wise enough to form a view, reject/oppose a view, work around these things etc. Normally we'd do this in discussion or debate or in some cases avoidance and boycott.  Throughout my working life I've had disagreements with other activists and union members on issues like Russia, China, Ireland, reform /revolution, and stacks of things but always, mainly out of necessity tbh, worked with good militants on things we agree on and were worth fighting for. 

The issue with Mason is that what we have is a proposal from him about a campaign to out and target what he and obviously some others see as pro-Russian and pro Chinese sources using government guidance around disinformation. It was positioned as a 'peoples' type campaign, trade unionists, the church , NGO/charity- a popular front against 'disinformation' ironically modeled on what used to be bog standard Communist Party tactics.   A campaign that squares with his position that the left should support the EU and USA powers against Russia and China. That in itself might raise an eyebrow and also about its limits ie how far and to whom should the 'cleansing of the left' or the 'de-communisation of communists' go? This is very different from the methods mentioned in my first paragraph.

However, if those emails are true, and that is a big if , he has moved up a step and a half. The reality is that those emails suggest he is not just proposing but has already made contact and plans to collaborate with a whole number of people a stone's throw away from intelligence assets and closeness to security services., and not just on a national scale but internationally. As one of the emails advised ' contacts in the government but not controlled by the government',  in other words state sponsored.


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## Rimbaud (Jun 8, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The real issue here isn't whether Mint Press are as dodgy as fuck or whether Greyzone is or whether the Mason map of left groups is accurate or inaccurate is it? Nor is it do posters like/hate/ really don't know about so and so's view on the Russian invasion. We are all old and wise enough to form a view, reject/oppose a view, work around these things etc. Normally we'd do this in discussion or debate or in some cases avoidance and boycott.  Throughout my working life I've had disagreements with other activists and union members on issues like Russia, China, Ireland, reform /revolution, and stacks of things but always, mainly out of necessity tbh, worked with good militants on things we agree on and were worth fighting for.
> 
> The issue with Mason is that what we have is a proposal from him about a campaign to out and target what he and obviously some others see as pro-Russian and pro Chinese sources using government guidance around disinformation. It was positioned as a 'peoples' type campaign, trade unionists, the church , NGO/charity- a popular front against 'disinformation' ironically modeled on what used to be bog standard Communist Party tactics.   A campaign that squares with his position that the left should support the EU and USA powers against Russia and China. That in itself might raise an eyebrow and also about its limits ie how far and to whom should the 'cleansing of the left' or the 'de-communisation of communists' go? This is very different from the methods mentioned in my first paragraph.
> 
> However, if those emails are true, and that is a big if , he has moved up a step and a half. The reality is that those emails suggest he is not just proposing but has already made contact and plans to collaborate with a whole number of people a stone's throw away from intelligence assets and closeness to security services., and not just on a national scale but internationally. As one of the emails advised ' contacts in the government but not controlled by the government',  in other words state sponsored.



Having a disagreement about Russia or China is one thing; being paid by or otherwise beholden to their intelligence agencies is quite another.

Paul Mason is at least acknowledging that organised disinformation by state actors is a problem, and attempting to think of a solution. From what I can see, he seems to simply be arguing that left wing groups and NGOs simply need to do better due diligence and be a bit less dense about who they work with, which is quite reasonable.

He points out correctly that if they don't do their due diligence themselves, then their own state apparatus will eventually treat them all as assets of hostile foreign intelligence. He isn't wrong - next time the left makes any progress, people like Fiona Edwards will be dragged out to represent the left as a whole. Same as happened with anti-semitism and Corbyn but potentially much worse.


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## The39thStep (Jun 8, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> Having a disagreement about Russia or China is one thing; being paid by or otherwise beholden to their intelligence agencies is quite another.
> 
> Paul Mason is at least acknowledging that organised disinformation by state actors is a problem, and attempting to think of a solution. From what I can see, he seems to simply be arguing that left wing groups and NGOs simply need to do better due diligence and be a bit less dense about who they work with, which is quite reasonable.
> 
> He points out correctly that if they don't do their due diligence themselves, then their own state apparatus will eventually treat them all as assets of hostile foreign intelligence. He isn't wrong - next time the left makes any progress, people like Fiona Edwards will be dragged out to represent the left as a whole. Same as happened with anti-semitism and Corbyn but potentially much worse.



This reads as unless the left renders itself in a form that is acceptable, through 'self imposed due diligence' (of course) ,  to the British state it will always be treated as assets of foreign intelligence. Paul is acknowledging that and left wing groups and NGOs need to respond. I am aware you don't have time to contribute to Paul's project but you are on board  , right?


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## RD2003 (Jun 8, 2022)

All this brings to mind the likes of Orwell and Koestler (whom Mason may or may not compare himself to). Understandably, given their experiences of the behaviour of the Communist apparatchiks and activists in places like Spain, they came to regard them as a worse enemy than their own ruling class. Koestler himself saw what the Soviet workers' state actually looked like in practice in its worst phase. Orwell took it to the level of grassing up active Communists to the state (I'm not sure if Koestler did.) Unfortunately, their dreams of a working class movement that was neither under Soviet influence nor tamed by their own ruling class came to nothing.

The situation now is in no way the same, but we can be confident that whatever Mason has in mind is also destined to come to nothing. The reaction to the war in Ukraine does, however, points to how even most contemporary self-styled radicals, with their complete lack of an independent viewpoint, are destined to remain tamed by the state.


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## Rimbaud (Jun 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> This reads as unless the left renders itself in a form that is acceptable, through 'self imposed due diligence' (of course) ,  to the British state it will always be treated as assets of foreign intelligence. Paul is acknowledging that and left wing groups and NGOs need to respond. I am aware you don't have time to contribute to Paul's project but you are on board  , right?



Not to be acceptable to the British state, but to the general population. If you are taking money to help cover up a genocide and parrot the propaganda of a dictatorship then you will be seen by most people, rightly, as a piece of shit. That there is passive acceptance or even complicity in this kind of behaviour on the left will be weaponised against it when the establishment feels threatened - but even so we shouldn't accept it anyway. It is less like becoming palatable by the establishment by refusing to challenge their interests, and more like not accepting sexism within your organisation because not only does it bring you into disrepute, but also because you shouldn't accept it anyway.

It is hard to see what the Vanessa Beesleys or Max Blumenthals of the world running around on the outskirts of the left actually add of any value or relevance to socialist politics. Calling them out earlier, rather than echoing and amplifying their crap, might have even got Corbyn elected - but getting rid of toxic alt-right adjacent anti-semitic conspiracy theories and atrocity denial would hardly have entailed watering down Corbyn's social and economic platform.

Also Paul Mason doesn't seem to be launching a particular programme or project in that article so I'm not sure what it would mean for me to be on board. He is merely saying his opinion. Which is summarised as follows:

1) State actors have learned to manipulate social media to spread disinformation more successfully through algorithmic manipulation
2) National governments are slow to respond to and to understand these disinformation campaigns
3) It is dangerous for national governments to lead the campaign against disinformation as it has the potential to threaten free speech and civil rights more broadly
4) Therefore civil society institutions (trade unions, NGOs, political parties etc) should manage their own counter-disinformation strategies, and the left should champion counter-disinformation as a cause, advocating state support to enable and assist counter-disinformation efforts

What exactly do you think is so ludicrous about this? Or do you merely object to countering disinformation on principle?

I think you may simply not be appreciating the significance of the question. Authoritarian states have already given their answer to disinformation - for example China's firewall, which does not prevent disinformation exactly but does block disinformation (as well as accurate information) which doesn't agree with the central government narrative. Authoritarian states are proactive in trying to establish international norms in counter-disinformation at the UN by promoting methodologies such as that are used in China.

We are now in a situation where such states can filter out and block any news they don't like, but actively pump disinformation and misinformation into countries that do not censor their Internet. Such disinformation almost overturned US democracy on January 6th, and has also caused problems with Covid denial and anti-vaxxers. 

Mason is recognising that this is an important issue, and tentatively suggesting that the answer may lie in creating a population who are savvier at recognising disinformation and suggests a decentralised campaign led by civil society institutions with some assistance from the state (whether that is funding, advice or whatever isn't specified) would be a preferable alternative to a centralised state-led strategy which could produce outcomes similar to China and Russia. I'm not sure what you think he was trying to say, but it is actually a pretty good article imo.


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## RD2003 (Jun 9, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> Not to be acceptable to the British state, but to the general population. If you are taking money to help cover up a genocide and parrot the propaganda of a dictatorship then you will be seen by most people, rightly, as a piece of shit. That there is passive acceptance or even complicity in this kind of behaviour on the left will be weaponised against it when the establishment feels threatened - but even so we shouldn't accept it anyway. It is less like becoming palatable by the establishment by refusing to challenge their interests, and more like not accepting sexism within your organisation because not only does it bring you into disrepute, but also because you shouldn't accept it anyway.
> 
> It is hard to see what the Vanessa Beesleys or Max Blumenthals of the world running around on the outskirts of the left actually add of any value or relevance to socialist politics. Calling them out earlier, rather than echoing and amplifying their crap, might have even got Corbyn elected - but getting rid of toxic alt-right adjacent anti-semitic conspiracy theories and atrocity denial would hardly have entailed watering down Corbyn's social and economic platform.
> 
> ...


I doubt that being associated, rightly or wrongly, with somebody like Vanessa Beeley had anything to do with Corbyn not being elected. Nobody outside the far-left bubble has heard of Beeley. In fact, I suspect that many within the far-left bubble haven't heard of her either. Corbyn not being elected was due to the neo-liberal right establishment (and elements of the neo-liberal left establishment), upping their game after realisng how close it came in 2017. Plus the well-documented Labour idiocy about Brexit, which united the neo-liberal left with the ant-Brexit neo-liberal right, and played right into the hands of the latter.

If the left could provide convincing arguments about the economy and society, I doubt if perceived anti-semitism on the left, or what some of its elements think about Putin etc etc, would make much difference. Nobody you ever meet outside the bubbles, left and right, spends their time worrying about whether the Russians or the CIA, or whoever, might be manipulating us. Maybe it's because of an unspoken acceptance that some fuckers somewhere are always manipulating us and always have been.

As if there is, in these days of social media dominance, any way of countering disinformation anyway. It's a losing battle.


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## Dystopiary (Jun 9, 2022)

YouSir said:


> Never heard of Grayzone before tbh and only seen people linking now because of the 'hacked' material. Would say people taking GZ seriously are considerably less of an issue that people taking Paul Mason seriously.


I'm not so sure. Grayzone and Max Blumenthal have a much bigger, further reaching following. And truly awful pro-Assad, Kremlin apologism and Uyghur genocide denial going on there.


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## RD2003 (Jun 9, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> I'm not so sure. Grayzone and Max Blumenthal have a much bigger, further reaching following. And truly awful pro-Assad, Kremlin apologism and Uyghur genocide denial going on there.


They don't have any following among anybody who counts. Ask the 'normals' you know if they've ever heard of these people.


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## YouSir (Jun 9, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> They don't have any following among anybody who counts. Ask the 'normals' you know if they've ever heard of these people.



Same applies to Paul Mason really. He's engaged in his Very Serious crusade against all the Stalinist hordes to an audience that, by real interest, would amount to about 10 people. It's only his previous profile and his willingness to align himself with the interests of some vicious bastards in Labour and the media that gives him/it any prominence at all. All for the sake of a job as MP probably.


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## Rimbaud (Jun 9, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> I doubt that being associated, rightly or wrongly, with somebody like Vanessa Beeley had anything to do with Corbyn not being elected. Nobody outside the far-left bubble has heard of Beeley. In fact, I suspect that many within the far-left bubble haven't heard of her either. Corbyn not being elected was due to the neo-liberal right establishment (and elements of the neo-liberal left establishment), upping their game after realisng how close it came in 2017. Plus the well-documented Labour idiocy about Brexit, which united the neo-liberal left with the ant-Brexit neo-liberal right, and played right into the hands of the latter.
> 
> If the left could provide convincing arguments about the economy and society, I doubt if perceived anti-semitism on the left, or what some of its elements think about Putin etc etc, would make much difference. Nobody you ever meet outside the bubbles, left and right, spends their time worrying about whether the Russians or the CIA, or whoever, might be manipulating us. Maybe it's because of an unspoken acceptance that some fuckers somewhere are always manipulating us and always have been.
> 
> As if there is, in these days of social media dominance, any way of countering disinformation anyway. It's a losing battle.


Not Beeley as a person, but it was that fringe 
/network of "anti-imperialist" conspiracism lurking around lefty Twitter which was drawn on to paint Corbynism as anti-semitic.


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## Rimbaud (Jun 9, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> They don't have any following among anybody who counts. Ask the 'normals' you know if they've ever heard of these people.


Doesn't matter - QAnon themed disinformation was largely unknown by "normies" until January 6th. It still has an effect. The Great Reset nonsense and whoever is associated with that is also unknown but that doesn't mean that the anti-vaxx movement was socially irrelevant.

And I think the point of Mason's article is that counter-disinformation is an inevitability as it becomes a more pressing issue, and that the left should try to shape a more democratic form of it to pre-empt a more top-down approach which could be repressive and indiscriminate. He doesn't really offer any specifics of how this would work - because I suppose it isn't really his field of expertise - but it is an important conversation to be having.


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## hitmouse (Jun 9, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> Also Paul Mason doesn't seem to be launching a particular programme or project in that article so I'm not sure what it would mean for me to be on board. He is merely saying his opinion. Which is summarised as follows:
> 
> 1) State actors have learned to manipulate social media to spread disinformation more successfully through algorithmic manipulation
> 2) National governments are slow to respond to and to understand these disinformation campaigns
> ...


I think it's 4, or the contradiction between 3 and 4, that's the problem. I would have no objections to, and indeed support, an independent left campaign against counter-disinformation, but it's the part where you get into advocating state support that crosses a line. It seems naive to expect state support without there being some kind of a quid pro quo, and if you accept that the state is likely to make demands in return then you're back to point 3, it's the point where something stops being an independent (working-class?) initiative against state propaganda, and crosses over to become effectively state-affiliated, imo.


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## Rimbaud (Jun 9, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I think it's 4, or the contradiction between 3 and 4, that's the problem. I would have no objections to, and indeed support, an independent left campaign against counter-disinformation, but it's the part where you get into advocating state support that crosses a line. It seems naive to expect state support without there being some kind of a quid pro quo, and if you accept that the state is likely to make demands in return then you're back to point 3, it's the point where something stops being an independent (working-class?) initiative against state propaganda, and crosses over to become effectively state-affiliated, imo.



Well, I feel like he is simply spit balling. He doesn't really define what state guidance would mean exactly. It could mean simply publishing an information resource and sharing intelligence publicly, or providing funds to supporting training in counter-disinformation.

The real problem with the article is that he doesn't really suggest anything specific and leaves it a little vague, but I think he is merely trying to start a conversation about it.


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## chilango (Jun 9, 2022)

Neither Beeley nor Mason but Internationalnotbeingamassivelydodgyandanutterdick Socialism.


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## killer b (Jun 9, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> an independent left campaign against counter-disinformation


I can't work out whether this would be pro or anti disinformation


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## hitmouse (Jun 9, 2022)

killer b said:


> I can't work out whether this would be pro or anti disinformation


Oh yeah, inadvertent double (triple?) negative there.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 9, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Oh yeah, inadvertent double (triple?) negative there.


Have you hired Larry's subeditor? 🤣


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## Rimbaud (Jun 9, 2022)

As a general comment about Paul Mason being mad or not - I really don't like how quick people are to jump on any lefty journo who gets in the public eye. Owen Jones gets similar treatment to what Mason is getting here and I can't actually think of a single left wing media figure who hasn't been mercilessly jumped on by urban75 with all their flaws magnified.

Mark Fisher's "Exiting the Vampire Castle" touched on this and made the excellent point - when looking at the abuse Owen Jones gets from lefty Twitter, why would anyone else want to join him in sticking their neck above the parapet? 

I'm sure every single person posting on this thread will have some eccentricities. God forbid any of us become media figures and get those magnified 1000x by the people we are supposedly on the same side as. Or as is the case with the article we are discussing, wilfully assuming that the least flattering possible interpretation of a rather vague article is the correct one and ridiculing him for that. Surely we can give people the benefit of a doubt sometimes?


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## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2022)

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine


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## hitmouse (Jun 9, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> Have you hired Larry's subeditor? 🤣


I just think it's time for the left to mount a serious campaign against counter-antidisestablishmentarianism, OK?


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## emanymton (Jun 9, 2022)

So let me see If I understand correctly. Mason is saying that in order to counter the problem of some parts of "the left" being essentially on the payroll of foreign states the rest of the left should align with our own state?


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## YouSir (Jun 9, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> As a general comment about Paul Mason being mad or not - I really don't like how quick people are to jump on any lefty journo who gets in the public eye. Owen Jones gets similar treatment to what Mason is getting here and I can't actually think of a single left wing media figure who hasn't been mercilessly jumped on by urban75 with all their flaws magnified.
> 
> Mark Fisher's "Exiting the Vampire Castle" touched on this and made the excellent point - when looking at the abuse Owen Jones gets from lefty Twitter, why would anyone else want to join him in sticking their neck above the parapet?
> 
> I'm sure every single person posting on this thread will have some eccentricities. God forbid any of us become media figures and get those magnified 1000x by the people we are supposedly on the same side as. Or as is the case with the article we are discussing, wilfully assuming that the least flattering possible interpretation of a rather vague article is the correct one and ridiculing him for that. Surely we can give people the benefit of a doubt sometimes?



How closely so you follow Mason? He's an aspiring Starmer aligned Labour MP, accuses anyone he dislikes of being a Stalinist, excuses arms sales to Saudi Arabia and peddles batshit conspiracies about who's a paid Russia shill. At least he does now that his magical mind map of who dunnit has been leaked (and not refuted), previously he just said it was everyone who disagreed with him. He's also a long way from Owen Jones - most of Mason's critics come from the Left, the Centre seem to like him for doing the Reds Under the Bed bit. Owen Jones has critics on the Left, me included at times, but far more defenders.

e2a: He's also a massive narcissist, real Galloway vibes only without any actual following at all.


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## chilango (Jun 9, 2022)

Sarkar doesn't appear to get much grief from the Left.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 9, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I just think it's time for the left to mount a serious campaign against counter-antidisestablishmentarianism, OK?


Let me ask you directly: when did you stop mounting a serious campaign against counter-antidisestablishmentarianism? 🤔


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## YouSir (Jun 9, 2022)

chilango said:


> Sarkar doesn't appear to get much grief from the Left.



Nor does Jones really, although he gets disagreed with plenty. Urban aside I don't think the Left really does turn on its media voices, for one thing there's only about 4 of them.


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## Dom Traynor (Jun 9, 2022)

chilango said:


> Sarkar doesn't appear to get much grief from the Left.


She's ok right?


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## Rimbaud (Jun 9, 2022)

YouSir said:


> How closely so you follow Mason? He's an aspiring Starmer aligned Labour MP, accuses anyone he dislikes of being a Stalinist, excuses arms sales to Saudi Arabia and peddles batshit conspiracies about who's a paid Russia shill. At least he does now that his magical mind map of who dunnit has been leaked (and not refuted), previously he just said it was everyone who disagreed with him. He's also a long way from Owen Jones - most of Mason's critics come from the Left, the Centre seem to like him for doing the Reds Under the Bed bit. Owen Jones has critics on the Left, me included at times, but far more defenders.
> 
> e2a: He's also a massive narcissist, real Galloway vibes only without any actual following at all.



I don't follow him closely but I read some of his stuff about the financial crisis 10 years ago.

Some of the stuff you say may have some truth in it, but I don't think it is fair at all to compare him to Galloway as far as I can see. Some of his conspiracies about who is a Russia paid shill are probably not batshit. He might get it wrong sometimes and go too far but IMO it is better than pretending that Russia propaganda campaigns don't exist. I'm not an expert about Russian disinformation but I know a lot about Chinese disinformation (I even had a job kind of related to this before) and his "magical mind map", at least pertaining to the Chinese influence, is accurate.

He was wrong about Starmer but I also seem to remember him publishing an article attacking Starmer for betraying the promises he made to get elected. And maybe he accuses critics of being Stalinists because Twitter is full of insane tankie trolls and 9 times out of 10 he is probably right. Don't know anything about the Saudi thing.


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## Rimbaud (Jun 9, 2022)

YouSir said:


> Nor does Jones really, although he gets disagreed with plenty. Urban aside I don't think the Left really does turn on its media voices, for one thing there's only about 4 of them.



I seem to remember him getting quite a lot of grief on here some years ago, and it was notable enough on Twitter for Mark Fisher to comment on it. It seems to have died down now for whatever reason.


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## YouSir (Jun 9, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I don't follow him closely but I read some of his stuff about the financial crisis 10 years ago.
> 
> Some of the stuff you say may have some truth in it, but I don't think it is fair at all to compare him to Galloway as far as I can see. Some of his conspiracies about who is a Russia paid shill are probably not batshit. He might get it wrong sometimes and go too far but IMO it is better than pretending that Russia propaganda campaigns don't exist. I'm not an expert about Russian disinformation but I know a lot about Chinese disinformation (I even had a job kind of related to this before) and his "magical mind map", at least pertaining to the Chinese influence, is accurate.
> 
> He was wrong about Starmer but I also seem to remember him publishing an article attacking Starmer for betraying the promises he made to get elected. And maybe he accuses critics of being Stalinists because Twitter is full of insane tankie trolls and 9 times out of 10 he is probably right. Don't know anything about the Saudi thing.



I remember his stuff pre Brexit, he's written interesting bits before but you've missed an awful lot of his devolution. His split with the Left literally followed 'these people who disagree with me are Stalinists' lines. His accusations of Russian collaboration also seem to work in only one direction, he's fixated on small Left Wing sects no one cares about but has nothing to say about Russian money elsewhere in our politics, he basically parrots Labour Right attack lines. Which is why he's been shortlisted as a potential MP imo.

His Saudi stuff was saying that anyone who questioned NATO (not even Ukraine's right to self defence) needed expelling from the party while pushing for arms sales to Saudi was fine no matter how they were used in Yemen because... reasons. 



Rimbaud said:


> I seem to remember him getting quite a lot of grief on here some years ago, and it was notable enough on Twitter for Mark Fisher to comment on it. It seems to have died down now for whatever reason.



Urban is Urban, I follow Jones' stuff on Twitter, hight doubt he'd rate the Left as his harshest critics. Lots of disagreement to be sure but it's the Right and transphobes coming with the death threats and such. I actually think he gets a decent amount of support from people.


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## Brainaddict (Jun 9, 2022)

Yeah, I don't see the point in getting annoyed with Jones. He's pretty straightforward about who he is and what he does, as a social democrat who would look quite moderate in former times but these days is considered quite left. The worst you can accuse him of is helping the guardian maintain an undeserved reputation as a left wing paper, but if people haven't worked out it's not left wing by now they probably never will.

Mason is a different kettle of fish. His politics have been all over the place over the years and he's unable to maintain consistency on where he stands. During his more left wing phase when he first left the BBC some leftists came to see him as an ally, so their disappointment at his move to the Labour right is understandable. Plus he says some right mad stuff.


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## Rimbaud (Jun 9, 2022)

YouSir said:


> I remember his stuff pre Brexit, he's written interesting bits before but you've missed an awful lot of his devolution. His split with the Left literally followed 'these people who disagree with me are Stalinists' lines. His accusations of Russian collaboration also seem to work in only one direction, he's fixated on small Left Wing sects no one cares about but has nothing to say about Russian money elsewhere in our politics, he basically parrots Labour Right attack lines. Which is why he's been shortlisted as a potential MP imo.
> 
> His Saudi stuff was saying that anyone who questioned NATO (not even Ukraine's right to self defence) needed expelling from the party while pushing for arms sales to Saudi was fine no matter how they were used in Yemen because... reasons.
> 
> ...



Ok, fair enough. That's a bit of a shame.

I think it is a difficult thing to get the right balance of. IMO there are quite serious threats emerging now to democratic rights overall. Some of these stem from states like Russia and particularly China, but the analysis should focus on how systems like China's with no rights for workers have proved quite attractive to neoliberal capitalism (Musk is one of their big cheerleaders for instance, because workers will keep going till 3am which he thinks is great), and also we need a better understanding of how surveillance capitalism may converge / is converging with the digital totalitarianism seen in China and increasingly Russia.

By the sounds of it, Mason has lost his way largely because he has recognised the importance of these trends (which a lot of the left is still in denial about) but as everyone is still flailing in the dark about these new developments and how to understand them he doesn't know where to focus his energy so is kind of fixating and obsessing over the wrong things.


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## chilango (Jun 9, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> She's ok right?


As far as it goes yeah. She gives good talk and I haven't seen her come out within beyond the pale at all.


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## chilango (Jun 9, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I seem to remember him getting quite a lot of grief on here some years ago, and it was notable enough on Twitter for Mark Fisher to comment on it. It seems to have died down now for whatever reason.


There was a photo of a bunch of Urbs getting a group selfie in the pub with at one point iirc.

I think the whole Laurie Penny experience burnt a lot of us.


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## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2022)

I can remember pub photos with Owen Jones and Ian Bone ( although that might have been a different site). Who has the photos with Paul Mason and Laurie Penny ?


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## hitmouse (Jun 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I can remember pub photos with Owen Jones and Ian Bone...


Be impressive if that was the same photo.


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## steveseagull (Jun 9, 2022)

lol


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## Dom Traynor (Jun 9, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I can remember pub photos with Owen Jones and Ian Bone ( although that might have been a different site).


Meanwhile at the bar with Ian Bone.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 9, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> lol



Isn't that the Exodus dude?


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## steveseagull (Jun 9, 2022)

It looks to me that Mason is heading down a similar rabbit hole to Majid Nawaz. Obsessed with conspiracy theories about small shady groups no one much cares about. What has happened to him these days?  Is he still on his COVID grift?

He seems to have been completely ostracized from the media since LBC gave him the boot. Even GB News have not given him a gig which I thought would be a natural home for his ranting


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## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2022)

It seems that this arms length from the government via an NGO disinformation stuff does require the due diligence and  savviness in the Mason project  that Rimbaud identified 

This one , The Integrity Initiative  had  a stated mission "of defending democracy from disinformation , in particular from Russia  as well as China and extremist groups such as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant".

 However it strayed off the path, as it were,  into tweeting anti Corbyn/ anti Seamus Milne stuff.




Some details here for those who want to avoid a repeat of these issues.









						Integrity Initiative outliers are the real 'useful idiots' in Twitter storm
					

Serious breach of political protocol must be probed, says Mail Opinion.




					www.dailyrecord.co.uk
				












						Calls for probe into Scots-based infowars after they apologise to Jeremy Corbyn
					

Labour MSP makes fresh call for probe into into Fife-based black ops group.




					www.dailyrecord.co.uk


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## steeplejack (Jun 9, 2022)

Is there no beginning to mad Paul's talents? Clearly short of cash grifting out this shite:


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## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Is there no beginning to mad Paul's talents? Clearly short of cash grifting out this shite:






> So, what I then do is what I call ‘scrum half’ journalism. In rugby, the scrum half is a little bloke who is quite clever and can run fast, OK, and he has to stick next to a bunch of big guys to whom he is philosophically disinclined – the forwards – and he has to persuade them to give him the ball so he can give it to the people to whom he is philosophically inclined: the backs. And that’s what being a business and economics journalist is. I have to stick really close to the elite, the establishment, and when I walk into a room with them I have to get them to engage with me as an equal.



Discuss.


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## tim (Jun 9, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> Not Beeley as a person, but it was that fringe
> /network of "anti-imperialist" conspiracism lurking around lefty Twitter which was drawn on to paint Corbynism as anti-semitic.



By going in about our friends in Hamas, he hardly did himself any favours.


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## LDC (Jun 9, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> Isn't that the Exodus dude?



Yes, left Labour politics generally and he's on the edges of dodgy conspiracy theory stuff, and that's a bit charitable. No surprise he doesn't like this, plenty of Galloway, anti-lockdown, Syria conspiracy, etc. stuff on his Twitter. Another politically poisonous prick.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jun 9, 2022)

Another Stalinist stooge that needs to be added to the mind map


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## steveseagull (Jun 10, 2022)

Mason confirms Bellingcat is deffo NOT a spook outfit


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## Dom Traynor (Jun 10, 2022)

Are Bellingcat spooks? I've only seen Larry claim that and provide no evidence.


----------



## agricola (Jun 10, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> Are Bellingcat spooks? I've only seen Larry claim that and provide no evidence.



If they aren't then they are unlucky enough to be of a form that would be used by such outfits if they ever wanted to do what Bellingcat do.


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## The39thStep (Jun 10, 2022)

Why It's Kicking Off Everywhere


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## JimW (Jun 10, 2022)

Pedestrianisation of Norwich town centre


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 10, 2022)

Long march through the institutions


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## The39thStep (Jun 10, 2022)

Strange Scenes Inside the Goldmine


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## magneze (Jun 10, 2022)

Did you make that one?


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## JimW (Jun 10, 2022)

Bit Underpants Gnomes.


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## magneze (Jun 10, 2022)

What do they taste like?


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 10, 2022)

JimW said:


> Bit Underpants Gnomes.


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## LDC (Jun 10, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> Are Bellingcat spooks? I've only seen Larry claim that and provide no evidence.



No, they're not. Only idiots claim they are, with no evidence.


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## LDC (Jun 10, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Strange Scenes Inside the Goldmine
> 
> View attachment 326571



Surely someone could do a U75 version with editor at the middle pulling all the strings of his minions? It's a bit like that automatic insurrectionary text generator that was doing the rounds  few years ago.


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## The39thStep (Jun 10, 2022)

LDC said:


> Surely someone could do a U75 version with editor at the middle pulling all the strings of his minions? It's a bit like that automatic insurrectionary text generator that was doing the rounds  few years ago.


Only for the mono thought activists and gatekeepers. ( although I realise that may relate to a period before your time )


----------



## LDC (Jun 10, 2022)

Yeah, that's over my head! Cheers for yr long reply on the Ukraine thread, appreciated.


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## steveseagull (Jun 10, 2022)

LDC said:


> No, they're not. Only idiots claim they are, with no evidence.


It was Mason who claimed this in his leaked emails and he has gone to pains not to deny he sent those emails. If it were me, and I had not, I would probably have made that clear.


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## PTK (Jun 12, 2022)

I seem to remember a contact of mine telling me that Owen Jones was a contact of the Spartacist League when he was about 16 years of age.

Paul Mason is said to have once been a member of Workers Power.

I have read articles written by the Spartacist League, Workers Power, Owen Jones, and Paul Mason. I may be the unwitting dupe who links a vast conspiracy with more connections than Clapham Junction railway station.


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## steveseagull (Jun 12, 2022)

Trouble at t'mill.

Mason has been booted off the long list



Think the mad diagram might have done for him but he is going to blame it on the Putin apologists, Stalinists, the far left and possibly black communities.


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## RD2003 (Jun 13, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Trouble at t'mill.
> 
> Mason has been booted off the long list
> 
> ...



Possibly some don't want a witch-hunter, doing the work of the Labour and non-labour right, as their candidate.


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## steveseagull (Jun 13, 2022)

It is also possible that the Jewish Labour Movement have had him spiked as they were busy calling him an antisemite last week


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## Smokeandsteam (Jun 13, 2022)

Can almost see the tears in his eyes as he tapped this missive out on his thinkpad:


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## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Trouble at t'mill.
> 
> Mason has been booted off the long list
> 
> ...




First hurdle confirmed by the jockey himself


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 13, 2022)




----------



## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2022)

steeplejack said:


>



Great loss to regional politics  🤣


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## brogdale (Jun 13, 2022)

It'll just have to be another book, then? 
Perhaps he'll be proposing the unionisation of all those sentient A.I.s?


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## PTK (Jun 13, 2022)

brogdale said:


> It'll just have to be another book, then?
> Perhaps he'll be proposing the unionisation of all those sentient A.I.s?


AI? Artificial Insemination? You think that Paul Mason might advocate the unionization of Artificial Inseminators? What a good idea. The Wankers United Will Never Be Defeated.


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## steeplejack (Jun 14, 2022)

Even allowing fo the dodginess of the Gray Zone, there is a Part 2 today and on face value very damning for mad Paul.









						Leaked emails expose Paul Mason’s collusion with senior British intelligence agent - The Grayzone
					

In leaked emails, celebrity journalist Paul Mason plots extensively with Andy Pryce of the UK Foreign Office Counter Disinformation and Media Development unit. Pryce’s Counter Disinformation unit has been cloaked behind a veil of near-total secrecy since its inception.  Mason and Pryce sketched...




					thegrayzone.com


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## The39thStep (Jun 14, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Even allowing fo the dodginess of the Gray Zone, there is a Part 2 today and on face value very damning for mad Paul.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jesus, there is a near bottomless pit of stuff in there to discuss. Its actually quite frightening that some posters on here not only defended him but applauded his proposals for 'due diligence.'


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## steeplejack (Jun 14, 2022)

Yep. Certainly puts his ludicrous turn-on-a-sixpence shapeshift from radical Corbynite firebrand to happy-clapping centrist & realist into perspective.


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## Rimbaud (Jun 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Jesus, there is a near bottomless pit of stuff in there to discuss. Its actually quite frightening that some posters on here not only defended him but applauded his proposals for 'due diligence.'



Do you view him collaborating with the British state as better or worse than groups and individuals on the left collaborating with the Chinese or Russian state? If you have a problem with him collaborating with the British government, then do you also have a problem with people on the left collaborating with the Chinese and Russian state? And what should be done about it?


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## Rimbaud (Jun 15, 2022)

I want to add some context to explain where I am coming from here.









						Calls grow for probe into Beijing's influence after London Chinatown attacks
					

Screenshots suggest organizers could be planning  more violence against Hong Kong protesters in the UK.




					www.rfa.org
				




Chinese Communist Party intelligence networks within the UK have been repeatedly harassing ethnic Chinese within the UK and nothing is really done about it. For example, Communist Party thugs (and make no mistake, these networks overlap very heavily with triads and Chinese gangsters within the UK) violently assaulted Hong Kong protesters in Chinatown last November, and in WeChat groups have been trying to track down addresses of HK democracy activists.

The situation within universities is even worse, with overseas Chinese students under supervision from spies who are there as "postgraduate students" and other voluntary informers. This can lead to retaliation against their families back in China if they step out of line while in the UK.



The astroturfed "No Cold War" demo in Chinatown in which the counter-demonstration was violently attacked also had the likes of Fiona Edwards of STWC present and she was working with the organisers.

I think it is quite likely that she is a bit dense and has no understanding of how the United Front Work Department functions within overseas Chinese communities. But nevertheless, I have no problem with Mason informing on Chinese spy networks, whose presence in this country is a source of unease and I consider to be a threat to my family.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 15, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> Do you view him collaborating with the British state as better or worse than groups and individuals on the left collaborating with the Chinese or Russian state? If you have a problem with him collaborating with the British government, then do you also have a problem with people on the left collaborating with the Chinese and Russian state? And what should be done about it?



If nothing else he's a lot more ridiculous than whatever imaginary left wing groups are collaborating with China and Russia. He's a joke, saved from being something more dangerous by his delusional incompetence. Even proper spooks must think he's completely daft.


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## YouSir (Jun 15, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I want to add some context to explain where I am coming from here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Closest that useless prick would get to reporting on Chinese spy networks is screaming 'Stalinist' at the staff of the local takeaway.


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## Sue (Jun 15, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> *Do you view him collaborating with the British state as better or worse than groups and individuals on the left collaborating with the Chinese or Russian state?* If you have a problem with him collaborating with the British government, then do you also have a problem with people on the left collaborating with the Chinese and Russian state? And what should be done about it?


I obviously can't speak for The39thStep, but surely they're both shit?  I'm a bit surprised you're even asking the question tbh.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 15, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> Do you view him collaborating with the British state as better or worse than groups and individuals on the left collaborating with the Chinese or Russian state? If you have a problem with him collaborating with the British government, then do you also have a problem with people on the left collaborating with the Chinese and Russian state? And what should be done about it?


This really depends on the nature of the "collaboration with [x] state".

At one of the scale, various members of the UK left will have worked with organs of the British state on, for example, the route of a march. No doubt there are direct action anarchist types who would criticise that as a tactic, but it's hardly a hanging issue.

At the other end of the scale you have the Workers Revolutionary Party taking payments from Libya and Iraq:




__





						Revolution betrayed - the Workers Revolutionary Party and Iraq
					

Two articles from Solidarity on corruption in the Workers Revolutionary Party and its links with Saddam Hussein and other Middle Eastern governments.




					libcom.org
				




And "approving the execution in March 1979 of more than twenty opponents of the Baath regime in Iraq; one of the victims, Talib Suwailh, had only five months earlier brought 'fraternal greetings' to a conference of the WRP's front organisation the All Trades Union Alliance." 57th Variety Act - Robin Blick

What Mason is doing would appear to be somewhere in between these two extremes. If anything it is more like George Orwell grassing people as subversives to the British state: Orwell's list

My personal view is that he looks like an idiot and is attempting to do things way outside of his competence. Individuals or small groups on the left who collaborate with intelligence services (of any state) are going to be hugely outgunned and there will only be one winner.


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## Rimbaud (Jun 15, 2022)

Sue said:


> I obviously can't speak for The39thStep, but surely they're both shit?  I'm a bit surprised you're even asking the question tbh.



I ask the question because I was previously defending Mason by saying he may have meant that campaigning groups should have their own due diligence systems to avoid collaboration with such groups, and saying that he may be wrong about some things but at least he is acknowledging it is a problem.

I grant he may be wrong, but I don't see any suggestions about how to tackle the problem being made. It feels like the implicit solution is "ignore it and pretend it doesn't happen and it will go away." However, this same attitude doesn't seem to apply to Paul Mason collaborating with the British state. Should a left wing group work with Paul Mason when he is doing this? If the answer is no, then it should also be no for groups that collaborate with Russian or Chinese intelligence.

I know plenty of people posting here are consistent in this, but I don't think everyone is.

Here is an example of why I get quite agitated about it:









						Laguna Woods church shooting suspect sent diary to newspaper before attack
					

David Chou has been charged with fatally shooting one person and injuring five others at a Taiwanese church in Laguna Woods




					www.independent.co.uk
				




OK, this shooting was an individual act, but it wasn't random either, no more than Anders Breivik shooting in Norway was random. The guy was a member of a Chinese nationalist pro-unification group linked to United Front Work Department, and the sort of rhetoric that goes on in those WeChat groups would make 4Chan blush. They tend to unambiguously justify violence, so acts such as these are a kind of product of that aggressively nationalistic echo chamber that has been constructed in recent years.

So seeing groups on the left willingly work with these kinds of groups rubs me up the wrong way. I know it is largely ignorance and naivety in most cases (however it is definitely self interest in some cases) but I'd feel a little less defensive of Paul Mason if people weren't also outright dismissing some of his claims which are actually true. John Ross of Socialist Action and Vijay Prishad of Qiao Collective, a member of the Progressive International, are literally and publicly employees of the Chinese government for instance, and Fiona Ross of STWC was working with that "No Cold War" group which set thugs on HK protesters in London and was gathering intelligence on HK activists living in the UK.


----------



## LDC (Jun 15, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Even allowing fo the dodginess of the Gray Zone, there is a Part 2 today and on face value very damning for mad Paul.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think that The Gray Zone is in any way a reliable source of info though, is there anything on this from people that don't have shit politics and aren't completely unhinged?

Don't get me wrong, I think Mason also seems a bit weird and I have said as much for ages, but looking at that website for info is like looking at RT for reliable stuff on Ukraine.


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## steveseagull (Jun 15, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I want to add some context to blah blah blah


Afternoon Paul!


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 15, 2022)

LDC said:


> I don't think that The Gray Zone is in any way a reliable source of info though, is there anything on this from people that don't have shit politics and aren't completely unhinged?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think Mason also seems a bit weird and I have said as much for ages, but looking at that website for info is like looking at RT for reliable stuff on Ukraine.


This might stand up if Mason had actually denied these emails are genuine.


----------



## Sue (Jun 15, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I grant he may be wrong, but I don't see any suggestions about how to tackle the problem being made. It feels like the implicit solution is "ignore it and pretend it doesn't happen and it will go away." However, this same attitude doesn't seem to apply to Paul Mason collaborating with the British state. *Should a left wing group work with Paul Mason when he is doing this? If the answer is no, then it should also be no for groups that collaborate with Russian or Chinese intelligence.*


As I said, seems like a complete no-brainer that you wouldn't work with either. 🤷‍♀️ (Why would you work with people you couldn't trust?)


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 15, 2022)

LDC said:


> I don't think that The Gray Zone is in any way a reliable source of info though, is there anything on this from people that don't have shit politics and aren't completely unhinged?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think Mason also seems a bit weird and I have said as much for ages, but looking at that website for info is like looking at RT for reliable stuff on Ukraine.



Mason isn't denying the substance of the claims or the veracity of that absurd mindmpa in the first article.

I accept what you say about the Gray Zone but unfortunately they are making the running on it.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 15, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> This really depends on the nature of the "collaboration with [x] state".
> 
> At one of the scale, various members of the UK left will have worked with organs of the British state on, for example, the route of a march. No doubt there are direct action anarchist types who would criticise that as a tactic, but it's hardly a hanging issue.
> 
> ...



Good post, but I'm not sure if those two examples are on a continuum of extremes. More like a continuum of "collaboration with foreign states" and "collaboration with domestic states."

The WRP being directly involved in approving executions in Iraq and taking money from Libya is more analogous to what the groups Mason is informing on are doing, especially regarding Roy Singham's generous funding of misinformation campaigns to deny the Uyghur genocide and business interests tied to China.

At the other side on the continuum, the Orwell list is quite similar to what Mason is allegedly doing, however the context is different - neither China nor Russia are really relevant to the labour movement like the Soviet Union was for instance. Putin's Russia seems to try and co-opt the far right more than the far left for instance.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 15, 2022)

Sue said:


> As I said, seems like a complete no-brainer that you wouldn't work with either. 🤷‍♀️ (Why would you work with people you couldn't trust?)


Yeah it seems that way to me to, but a lot of people I have respect for don't agree. E.g. I am disappointed in Yanis Varafoukis and the Progressive International allowing Qiao Collective to be members.


----------



## LDC (Jun 15, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> This might stand up if Mason had actually denied these emails are genuine.



If I was him I wouldn't engage with the Gray Zone either tbh, nothing good would come of it. But it's not just the emails anyway, they draw loads of stuff from them that they present as facts, all of which I'd be highly skeptical of.

Anyway tbh I don't really see what the massive deal is, he's not an anarchist, none of this is counter to his politics, the Gray Zone are only getting involved as they're some of the fuckers he's targeting - rightly so imo, even if I wouldn't do what he's doing. Same with the bleating about 'targeting academics' in that article, it's the pro-Assad chemical weapon denier conspiracy ones he's getting at. Good.


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## steveseagull (Jun 15, 2022)

LDC said:


> If I was him I wouldn't engage with the Gray Zone either tbh, nothing good would come of it. But it's not just the emails anyway, they draw loads of stuff from them that they present as facts, all of which I'd be highly skeptical of.
> 
> Anyway tbh I don't really see what the massive deal is, he's not an anarchist, none of this is counter to his politics, the Gray Zone are only getting involved as they're some of the fuckers he's targeting - rightly so imo, even if I wouldn't do what he's doing. Same with the bleating about 'targeting academics' in that article, it's the pro-Assad chemical weapon denier conspiracy ones he's getting at. Good.


If it were me i would deny sending emails that are so incriminating.


----------



## LDC (Jun 15, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> If it were me i would deny sending emails that are so incriminating.



Well you might, but he might not, and understandably so given the history and politics of The Gray Zone. I wouldn't bother engaging with plenty like them if they started making accusations against me either. Anyway, why are they so 'incriminating' for him? He's open about what he's doing and none of it is counter to his politics.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 15, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> Good post, but I'm not sure if those two examples are on a continuum of extremes. More like a continuum of "collaboration with foreign states" and "collaboration with domestic states."


Fair enough. I'm sure there are examples of people collaborating with the British state and their proxy Loyalist death squads in Northern Ireland that would be almost equivalent to the WRP stuff. 

As to your wider point about groups denying genocide, I can see that it might be tempting for people on the left to collaborate with intelligence services to fuck those guys up. I'd still argue that was wrong though and that exposing them in the press would probably be a better, although still compromised, way of going about it.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 15, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Fair enough. I'm sure there are examples of people collaborating with the British state and their proxy Loyalist death squads in Northern Ireland that would be almost equivalent to the WRP stuff.
> 
> As to your wider point about groups denying genocide, I can see that it might be tempting for people on the left to collaborate with intelligence services to fuck those guys up. I'd still argue that was wrong though and that exposing them in the press would probably be a better, although still compromised, way of going about it.



Yeah I agree - I was only defending Mason's point because it wasn't clear what he meant by "state guidance". Groups on the left being more pro-active in keeping an eye on this kind of thing would definitely be a good thing, and the article he wrote was vague enough that it could have meant that.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 15, 2022)

LDC said:


> Well you might, but he might not, and understandably so given the history and politics of The Gray Zone. I wouldn't bother engaging with plenty like them if they started making accusations against me either. Anyway, why are they so 'incriminating' for him? He's open about what he's doing and none of it is counter to his politics.



Then he should embrace it, say yes, I want to work with the state and yes I think Novara Media is a conduit for feeding Putin propaganda to the black community. He needn't even acknowledge the leak that way. Instead he's just ignoring it all completely, almost as if he knows it makes him look like a joke.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 15, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Afternoon Paul!



Further context - my wife is Taiwanese and has been harassed by such groups in the UK before, who are often protected from punishment by universities who want to protect their bottom line. Also I lived in China for many years and Uyghur friends of mine were taken for re-education. So it is personal.

You might want to be a bit more open minded.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 15, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> John Ross of Socialist Action and Vijay Prishad of Qiao Collective, a member of the Progressive International, are literally and publicly employees of the Chinese government for instance, and Fiona Ross of STWC was working with that "No Cold War" group which set thugs on HK protesters in London and was gathering intelligence on HK activists living in the UK.


Edwards, I think, for that last name - Socialist Action may be cultish, but I don't think they're quite at "making everyone take the same last name" levels of cultish.  


LDC said:


> I don't think that The Gray Zone is in any way a reliable source of info though, is there anything on this from people that don't have shit politics and aren't completely unhinged?


I'd be surprised, I think most people who aren't unhinged are paying this whole spat very little attention at all.


Sue said:


> As I said, seems like a complete no-brainer that you wouldn't work with either. 🤷‍♀️ (Why would you work with people you couldn't trust?)


To give a devil's advocate kind of answer, I suppose because politics is a tricky, messy business and you often find yourself having to try to make the best of a shit situation?


LDC said:


> Anyway tbh I don't really see what the massive deal is, he's not an anarchist, none of this is counter to his politics...


Aye, this part is an important point tbf. Shock horror, Labour Party supporter and aspiring Labour MP is soft on the British state!


----------



## belboid (Jun 15, 2022)

There seems to be quite a bit of taking this GrayZone string of sentences at face value, despite bits of it being just obviously wrong and unjustified assertion based on the vaguest’facts’.  

Eg, it says “In the April 8 email (see above), Mason and Briant also discussed how to solicit funding from the Open Society Foundations (OSF) of liberal oligarch George Soros.” - except the email they print does no such thing.  It just says Briant is currently funded by OSF.  The May 12 email is explicitly anti-Tory and talks of coordinating to make things as bad as possible for them.  So, unless Klatenberg wants to claim that ‘the state’ is working to destroy Johnson, his claim that Mason is a state asset also falls by the wayside.  

I don’t have much of an issue with who Mason is targeting, most of them (eg the No Cold War lot and the Assad apologists) are scum who should be sidelined, just as, back in the day, many of us would have nothing to do with the RCP or WRP (neither of whom did union/workplace work by and large). The problem is more how he’s doing it, who with and whether he’s inadvertently giving them more of a boost by concentrating on them.  

There is no doubt that Mason is vastly soft on the state and he is one of these fools who think supporting the west is about protecting ‘enlightenment values’ from the barbarian hordes.  But that’s different from being an actual asset.  

Tldr version - Grayzone are shit for morons but Mason can still be categorised as ‘useful fool’.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2022)

My enemy's enemy is not necessarily my friend. Could just be a dick


----------



## belboid (Jun 15, 2022)

And in todays Private Eye


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 15, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> Do you view him collaborating with the British state as better or worse than groups and individuals on the left collaborating with the Chinese or Russian state? If you have a problem with him collaborating with the British government, then do you also have a problem with people on the left collaborating with the Chinese and Russian state? And what should be done about it?


The answer that Sue has given is where I am at.

I can understand, given what you have said , why China is a personal thing for you however jumping enthusiastically and uncritically onto  Masons Mind Map proposal isn't going to solve those issues. In fact your mistaken enthusiasm for it just diverts you into an energy sapping he's '100% right, correctly identifies, maybe he is wrong , but he does identify, perhaps he was wrong on this but  etc etc'  rather than be able to focus on  the issues that you feel are important. 

Whatever political froth he covers it in his proposal isn't for some quality assurance programme on the left that issues a watermark that will protect the left from being treated as foreign assets by the state . Its actually for the left and the state to work together in somehow tackling state sponsored disinformation by indulging what inevitable lead into  ( especially looking at the last arms length disinformation service)  state sponsored disinformation. You might be right that the mindmap is right on China but what about the rest of that's haphazardly thrown to the wolves on there plus the collateral damage and bystanders?

The problem with seeking to adopt such an off the peg ( and frankly off the wall) one size solution from Mason is that anything he touches he inevitable makes it more about him that the issue and it, therefore, becomes tainted.   I'd be interested to read , with an open mind, more of your posts on China but I'm not going to give you any leeway on backing Mason state surveillance and rebuttal nonsense.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The answer that Sue has given is where I am at.
> 
> I can understand, given what you have said , why China is a personal thing for you however jumping enthusiastically and uncritically onto  Masons Mind Map proposal isn't going to solve those issues. In fact your mistaken enthusiasm for it just diverts you into an energy sapping he's '100% right, correctly identifies, maybe he is wrong , but he does identify, perhaps he was wrong on this but  etc etc'  rather than be able to focus on  the issues that you feel are important.
> 
> ...



I have no idea about the rest of it because I don't know that much about Russia.

If he is indeed advocating state surveillance then I don't agree with him; but the original article that prompted this discussion was rather vague and the specifics of what he was suggested was a bit vague.

What I would like is simply for the left to be more genuinely internationalist and universalist - it still seems that some people are locked in a strange Cold War mindset where they desperately want there to be a socialist camp opposed to the capitalist west, but such a camp does not exist; there are only capitalist powers and other capitalist powers. The behaviour of these "anti-imperialist" western leftists has real world effects on democracy activists in the global south, either by throwing around unsupported allegations of protests being supported by foreign powers which then leads to persecution, or by sapping the energy and morale of people on the ground, giving them the impression that nobody cares about them and causing them to waste their time refuting false claims online. 

The ultimate problem with this, and also why I do not agree with Paul Mason working with the state to achieve this, is that I do not think the differences between the interests and demands of protesters in the west and in the "global south" are radically different anymore and there is some kind of convergence underway in socio-economic conditions as well as a convergence towards authoritarianism and nationalism.

Most "global south" countries are now urbanised middle income states with fairly educated populations who have Internet access, so creating solidarity and common cause is less difficult compared to e.g. a society of largely illiterate subsistence farmers. But in many cases, the behaviour of western tankie leftists makes it difficult to make common cause with democracy activists in somewhere like Thailand, Lebanon, Myanmar, Belarus or Hong Kong because they so often dismiss their movements as colour revolutions and side with the oppressors.

And I don't think the political demands are so different, or at least they should not be. Globalised neoliberal capitalism has tended to favour fascist states like China who use a repressive state to create a compliant workforce for global capital. This is why Elon Musk and Wall Street love China. The race to the bottom has contributed to a collapse in bargaining power of workers in the west, which has in turn weakened unions and therefore civil society, which has contributed to a transformation into an increasingly plutocratic and authoritarian state which the UK appears increasingly to be today. So from that angle, rather than allowing our leaders to hypocritically claim to be on the side of democracy, it would make more sense to make common cause with democracy activists in other countries and echoing their demands towards our own establishment. Knee jerk support for authoritarian states which the west doesn't like (but from whose repression our elites profit nicely from...) does their work for them by causing divisions between activists in the west and those in the global south who should actually be on the same side.

Also, achieving basic right to assembly in China would transform the power of labour worldwide, so the left should be the strongest and most vocal supporters of political change in China. It would also make things tougher for the Chinese government if political demands for more democracy in China were also aligned with demands for more democracy in the west as it would be more like a global revolutionary movement than the perception of the west trying to change China's indigenous system.

In summary - the conditions for a genuine internationalist socialist movement exist today, and the prevalence of campist tankies amongst the people most motivated to work on building this is a major hindrance, and I don't think the left can be revitalised as a global anti-capitalist force until this kind of thinking is discredited and there can be identified a common left in both Asia and the West. So Mason's solution is wrong, but I am defensive about it only because I think it would be good for there to be an organised effort on the left to challenge and expose the worst examples of this kind of behaviour. 

I suspect that time is on my side here and the kind of "anti-imperialist" worldview will have less resonance as western countries become less relevant. For instance, by 2050 Europe's share of global GDP is anticipated by PwC to fall to 10%, and the US share (which has already halved since 1960) will also fall significantly. Already, of the top 5 economies, only 2 of them (US and Germany) are western economies. I think as these trends become more obvious, a worldview based on assuming that only the west has agency will begin to look increasingly ridiculous.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 15, 2022)

Sounds like you are going to be busy over the next few years in building this international socialist movement , are you in a group or freelance ?


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 15, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I have no idea about the rest of it because I don't know that much about Russia.
> 
> If he is indeed advocating state surveillance then I don't agree with him; but the original article that prompted this discussion was rather vague and the specifics of what he was suggested was a bit vague.
> 
> ...



Excellent post, I remember even on here there were a few bellends that popped up arguing that the Hong Kong protests were a CIA attempt to undermine the kindly Chinese state.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Sounds like you are going to be busy over the next few years in building this international socialist movement , are you in a group or freelance ?



I am admittedly doing fuck all politically at the moment - I've been doing an MSc in evenings while working full time and juggling a number of other things including getting married recently. I don't think that means my observations are invalid though.

Thankfully the MSc is over so I have a bit more time, and if I do get time for that sort of thing it will probably focus on trying to build on connections between the Asian and western left. I have a few ideas of how to go about it, time permitting.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 15, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I am admittedly doing fuck all politically at the moment - I've been doing an MSc in evenings while working full time and juggling a number of other things including getting married recently. I don't think that means my observations are invalid though.
> 
> Thankfully the MSc is over so I have a bit more time, and if I do get time for that sort of thing it will probably focus on trying to build on connections between the Asian and western left. I have a few ideas of how to go about it, time permitting.


Congrats on getting married and the MSc. I've no experience in building an international socialist movement, I've come across those who say they are part of one or building one but they normally belong to a group. I guess that on one hand there are quite a lot of international socialist movements but as the world is big there is always room for one more eh ?


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Congrats on getting married and the MSc. I've no experience in building an international socialist movement, I've come across those who say they are part of one or building one but they normally belong to a group. I guess that on one hand there are quite a lot of international socialist movements but as the world is big there is always room for one more eh ?



I'm not planning on forming any organisation, but while there is a fair bit of communication and common political language within the western countries (including Latin America) there is not so much of a common vocabulary between Asia and the west. Building channels of communication and common media is far more modest but probably more important and effective right now.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 15, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Congrats on getting married and the MSc. I've no experience in building an international socialist movement, I've come across those who say they are part of one or building one but they normally belong to a group. I guess that on one hand there are quite a lot of international socialist movements but as the world is big there is always room for one more eh ?


Maybe it can all be done online... Although back in the early 2000s, the internet was the tool that was going to set us free and facilitate international co-operation between socialists and 'progressives' generally. I wonder what the people responsible for this starry-eyed nonsense are thinking now.* 

Whatever else the internet has been, it's been a massive boost for complete strangers who will never meet telling each other how dastardly they are. 

The ruling classes and the exploiters are, meanwhile, still sitting pretty. Wars abound, and the usual fuckers are still getting richer out of them.


*Thinking about it, they're probably still saying exactly the same thing.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 16, 2022)

I am sure their CLP will be delighted


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 16, 2022)

Steve Turn (Unite) also has his eyes on that seat


----------



## YouSir (Jun 16, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> I am sure their CLP will be delighted




He's got no chance. Weird choice of seat to go for tbh, not sure where he thinks his support is there


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 18, 2022)




----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2022)

If I could do it all over again I'd do it all over you


----------



## two sheds (Jun 29, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> If I could do it all over again I'd do it all over you



who do you think you are?


----------



## belboid (Jun 29, 2022)

I suppose it’s a logical step on from the workers’ bomb


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 30, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> If I could do it all over again I'd do it all over you



I wonder if Mason comes on here? Personally, I'd be deeply offended if I wasn't on his list.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2022)

belboid said:


> I suppose it’s a logical step on from the workers’ bomb


Probably one more step to it tbh


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 30, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Probably one more step to it tbh


NATO is the new CND.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> NATO is the new CND.


I certainly think it’s true to say that there are those who would class themselves on the left who side with NATO against the Russians and Chinese .


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jun 30, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> I wonder if Mason comes on here? Personally, I'd be deeply offended if I wasn't on his list.


Almost no one knows about Urban75 so it feels unlikely. He probably popped in once in 2003 and has since forgotten about it.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> Almost no one knows about Urban75 so it feels unlikely. He probably popped in once in 2003 and has since forgotten about it.


I think someone estimated that about a quarter to a third of Workers Power posted on here for a while before they were ordered off by other CC due to the International Brigade to Iraq debate.


----------



## LDC (Jun 30, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> I wonder if Mason comes on here? Personally, I'd be deeply offended if I wasn't on his list.



No idea why, most of the people on his list seem to be cunts with dodgy politics.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jul 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I think someone estimated that about a quarter to a third of Workers Power posted on here for a while before they were ordered off by other CC due to the International Brigade to Iraq debate.


I think the Cheadle Spring thinned out their ranks considerably


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I think someone estimated that about a quarter to a third of Workers Power posted on here for a while before they were ordered off by other CC due to the International Brigade to Iraq debate.



They must have been halcyon days on here….


----------



## belboid (Jul 1, 2022)

whereas now we have around half the ACG instead…


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 1, 2022)

It’s good to keep busy at their age


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 1, 2022)

belboid said:


> whereas now we have around half the ACG instead…


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> They must have been halcyon days on here….


We were in a pre-revolutionary situation then or was that after the Workers Power split?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 1, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


>


Is it the ACG who publish the Morning Star then? I always thought that was someone else.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jul 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> We were in a pre-revolutionary situation then or was that after the Workers Power split?


That was Permanent Revolution.


----------



## Wilf (Jul 1, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Is it the ACG who publish the Morning Star then? I always thought that was someone else.


Seen recently at a secret ACG training camp:


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jul 1, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Seen recently at a secret ACG training camp:
> 
> View attachment 329891


That's from a National Action camp. Shared sex toy.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 1, 2022)

Ooooohhh Cheadle High Street, Paul Mason's Waterloo.... Or was it Portaloo?!


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2022)

Dream Baby Dream 

The plan for a people's plan for the renovation of every high street will have to go on the backburner.  Mason's latest NATO proposals ( retweeted 30 times out of his 680k odd followers ) now want NATO to seek security cooperation with China. Where that leaves the targets in the Mason's  Mind Map is anyone's guess tbh but for now a stay of execution. 



> SUMMARY​As we approach the Madrid Summit, civil society needs to have its say in the formulation of a new NATO Strategic Concept. This report proposes the following major changes.
> 
> 
> NATO to adopt democratic resilience as its primary task, co-equal with deterrence and defence.
> ...


----------



## tim (Jul 1, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> I wonder if Mason comes on here? Personally, I'd be deeply offended if I wasn't on his list.



As you  are the Frank Pike of the Wurbington 75 Platoon, I would be surprised if you weren't.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 1, 2022)

tim said:


> As you  are the Frank Pike of the Wurbington 75 Platoon, I would be surprised if you weren't.


I'd have thought I was more like Frazer,


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> I'd have thought I was more like Frazer,


"Stupid boy"


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Dream Baby Dream
> 
> The plan for a people's plan for the renovation of every high street will have to go on the backburner.  Mason's latest NATO proposals ( retweeted 30 times out of his 680k odd followers ) now want NATO to seek security cooperation with China. Where that leaves the targets in the Mason's  Mind Map is anyone's guess tbh but for now a stay of execution.



‘Imagine Chairman Mao had invented a time machine’


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Dream Baby Dream
> 
> The plan for a people's plan for the renovation of every high street will have to go on the backburner.  Mason's latest NATO proposals ( retweeted 30 times out of his 680k odd followers ) now want NATO to seek security cooperation with China. Where that leaves the targets in the Mason's  Mind Map is anyone's guess tbh but for now a stay of execution.



who is actually going to read, let alone take seriously, this blustering drivel?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 1, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> who is actually going to read, let alone take seriously, this blustering drivel?



I was going to write an interminably long post on it, but there’s no point. It’s just utter shit.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> who is actually going to read, let alone take seriously, this blustering drivel?


Very few on here since  China has been taken off the list


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I certainly think it’s true to say that there are those who would class themselves on the left who side with NATO against the Russians and Chinese .


As I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's the modern day expression of the views of figures on the left like Orwell and Koestler, who would almost certainly have been cheerleading Ukraine and its sacrificing on the altar of neo-liberal capitalism, rather than trying to formulate an independent, pro-working class critique. 

Peter Hitchens, from a right-wing pov, makes some reasonable points about today's soft left and its attitude to NATO. 


*'Around September 2001, left-wing idealism dropped its old peace-loving nature. Instead, it became an armed crusade to democratize the world, with NATO as its weapon. The old conservative view of armed conflict—war as deterrence and then, if that failed, reluctant defense—was swept aside by an almost joyous desire to begin the world over again, this time using bombers.'

'In the 1980s, I sometimes thought I was the only university-educated person I knew who thought deterrence was a good idea and NATO a good thing. Nowadays, it is all the other way round. I am one of the few educated people I know who thinks that the West bears some blame for the appalling conflict raging in Ukraine, though I can name a string of diplomats and academics, from George Kennan and Henry Kissinger to Yegor Gaidar and Noam Chomsky, who have long warned that NATO expansion was a terrible mistake, certain to strengthen the worst elements in Moscow.'*


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 1, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> As I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's the modern day expression of the views of figures on the left like Orwell and Koestler, who would almost certainly have been cheerleading Ukraine and its sacrificing on the altar of neo-liberal capitalism, rather than trying to formulate an independent, pro-working class critique.
> 
> Peter Hitchens, from a right-wing pov, makes some reasonable points about today's soft left and its attitude to NATO.
> 
> ...



You've not quoted George Galloway yet, there's another one that agrees with you.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 1, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> You've not quoted George Galloway yet, there's another one that agrees with you.


Maybe I should think about George a bit more. I did see him once, at a Respect launch about 20 years ago (I went along so I could hate it). All I remember is that he is a good orator and that he called Blunkett a racist. Lots of Muslim Brotherhood types were sat behind us.

Afterwards, I saw an SWP member I knew, although not well, in Manchester days. I bought her a drink and she bought me one. Don't know where George had gone by then. He wasn't in the pub, but I don't think he drinks, does he?


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 1, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> Maybe I should think about George a bit more. I did see him once, at a Respect launch about 20 years ago (I went along so I could hate it). All I remember is that he is a good orator and that he called Blunkett a racist. Lots of Muslim Brotherhood types were sat behind us.
> 
> I saw an SWP member I knew, although not well, in Manchester days. I bought her a drink and she bought me one. Don't know where George had gone by then. He wasn't in the pub, but I don't think he drinks, does he?


I think about him drinking and I can't unsee the milk-lapping thing. Well he's to be found on twitter with "Russian state-affiliated media" under his name. He got quite indignant about that, which was very funny to watch, just after it happened. He hastily deleted relevant links in his profile only for people to post screenshots, while his defenders blamed NATO and the BBC and maybe there was some shit about Julian Assange.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 1, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> I think about him drinking and I can't unsee the milk-lapping thing. Well he's to be found on twitter with "Russian state-affiliated media" under his name. He got quite indignant about that, which was very funny to watch, just after it happened. He hastily deleted relevant links in his profile only for people to post screenshots, while his defenders blamed NATO and the BBC and maybe there was some shit about Julian Assange.


Galloway is basically showbiz. A bit like an older, cleverer Liam Gallagher.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 3, 2022)

Tried to think of something to say about this, pondering how someone who is the son of a miner from Leigh has ended up politically degenerating to the extent that he ends up spouting such total and utter shite like this. But I’ve decided to just let the derangement of the man to speak for itself:


----------



## WhyLikeThis (Aug 3, 2022)

“Students wouldn’t want to go because there’s no black people, there’s no migrants”

His decline really is pitiful.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 3, 2022)

WhyLikeThis said:


> “Students wouldn’t want to go because there’s no black people, there’s no migrants”
> 
> His decline really is pitiful.



It’s just pitiful bollocks isn’t it.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 3, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Tried to think of something to say about this, pondering how someone who is the son of a miner from Leigh has ended up politically degenerating to the extent that he ends up spouting such total and utter shite like this. But I’ve decided to just let the derangement of the man to speak for itself:



The lengthening thousand yard stare of the woman in shot is understandable.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 3, 2022)

Making his passionate case for The People's Cocaine


----------



## ska invita (Aug 3, 2022)

Is it true people only stand up in pubs in Wigan?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 3, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Is it true people only stand up in pubs in Wigan?


Fucked if I’m going there, if correct


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 3, 2022)

I think maybe you're allowed to sit down once the women come out?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 3, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I think maybe you're allowed to sit down once the women come out?


Nah, no lesbians, blacks or migrants, remember?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 3, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I think maybe you're allowed to sit down once the women come out?


i wonder what time that is .... i know its_ later, _but could it be as late as 9pm? A lot of standing around if so. Wigan sounds a bit shit tbh


----------



## two sheds (Aug 3, 2022)

Good rugby team though: Bevan French, Liam Farrell, Jai Field (stunning) to mention just three


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 4, 2022)

Whether he intended to or not, Mason's unveiling his vision of a socialist society there. Crowded streets full of 'vibrant shopping' done by students joyfully rubbing shoulders with black people and migrants (because all students love black people and migrants), with the white working class, males especially, marginalised. And standing in pubs outlawed.


----------



## belboid (Aug 4, 2022)

For the last year or so I have vaguely meant to/considered objecting to the title of this thread, because we just don’t use terms relating to mental health in a pejorative way like that. 

But, fuck me, the crackpot makes that argument impossible at times.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 4, 2022)

WhyLikeThis said:


> “Students wouldn’t want to go because there’s no black people, there’s no migrants”
> 
> His decline really is pitiful.


It might be his apex.


----------



## RedRedRose (Aug 4, 2022)

Is this his way of saying the left is out of touch?


----------



## JimW (Aug 4, 2022)

His way of telling us he's out to lunch.


----------



## NoXion (Aug 4, 2022)

I don't think I've ever been to a pub where there was no seating or women. The whole thing sounds like a goddamned fever dream to me, not helped by Mason's aimless delivery. I've lived in the south of the country most of my life, but even so what he's describing sounds like another time and place.


----------



## tim (Aug 4, 2022)

JimW said:


> His way of telling us he's out to lunch.


A bipedal liquid lunch


----------



## two sheds (Aug 4, 2022)

I've heard of pubs with ropes from the ceiling so people can hang onto them and keep singing while they're pissed.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 4, 2022)

brogdale said:


> The lengthening thousand yard stare of the woman in shot is understandable.


Shamelessly stolen off one of the replies on twitter, but at one point, just after "there's no vibrant retail", you can actually see her check to see if he's talking out his arse.


----------



## Dystopiary (Aug 4, 2022)

Heck of a pub crawl, Salford to Wigan.


----------



## Serge Forward (Aug 4, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> Heck of a pub crawl, Salford to Wigan.
> 
> 
> View attachment 335979


And not many pubs on the East Lancs Rd either. Anyway, what the fuck is he on about??? The Wigan pubs on trip advisor all seem to have tables. Total bellend.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 4, 2022)

I am hoping to visit Wigan next month, will have to keep an eye out and see if I can spot any chairs, women or migrants.


----------



## Sue (Aug 4, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I am hoping to visit Wigan next month, will have to keep an eye out and see if I can spot any chairs, women or migrants.


Pubs with no chairs sound a bit rubbish tbh. Even stools would be an improvement.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 4, 2022)

unless they have ropes to hang onto


----------



## Serge Forward (Aug 4, 2022)

Surely he's talking about victorian doss houses.


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 9, 2022)




----------



## hitmouse (Aug 21, 2022)

Have to say, as mad as Paul Mason can be, the person who seems obsessed with proving that Mason is actually the violent anarchist mastermind behind Don't Pay has effortlessly eclipsed him.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 21, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Have to say, as mad as Paul Mason can be, the person who seems obsessed with proving that Mason is actually the violent anarchist mastermind behind Don't Pay has effortlessly eclipsed him.


 
The one who was going to out the leadership of Don't Pay if they didn't respond to some PM he'd sent?


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 21, 2022)

That sounds right, yes.


----------



## NoXion (Aug 21, 2022)

steveseagull said:


>




Am I reading this Twitter post right? Is Mason now claiming that the absolutely batshit chart he once posted is now part of a Russian psy-op?


----------



## LDC (Aug 21, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Have to say, as mad as Paul Mason can be, the person who seems obsessed with proving that Mason is actually the violent anarchist mastermind behind Don't Pay has effortlessly eclipsed him.



I'm 50/50 split on whether he needs a kicking or actually just some mental health intervention. (Just to be clear, I don't mean Mason but the Behind Labour person.)


----------



## Wilf (Aug 21, 2022)

I'm not sure I can define the place where Mason has reached, it's all very sad.  Part of the strictly political bit of his trajectory is that his definitions of 'vibrancy' and 'diversity' have reached the same point where advertising firms deploy the same concepts.  Politically at least, he's a silly cunt.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 21, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Am I reading this Twitter post right? Is Mason now claiming that the absolutely batshit chart he once posted is now part of a Russian psy-op?


It's a tricky bit of wording, because what he says is:

And it's true, I can't say for sure whether the chart was edited, distorted, faked entirely or whether it's a 100% accurate representation of something that Paul Mason produced. As I see it, the only person who can say for sure whether or not that chart is one that was produced by Paul Mason is... Paul Mason, which makes his decision to lean on "_may be_" rather than stating outright that it was or wasn't edited or faked a bit curious.


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 22, 2022)

Another mind map has popped up on Twitter


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 22, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Am I reading this Twitter post right? Is Mason now claiming that the absolutely batshit chart he once posted is now part of a Russian psy-op?



Yeah but it was also connected to Opus Dei, Mexican wrestling and the Alvin Stardust fan club.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 22, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah but it was also connected to Opus Dei, Mexican wrestling and the Alvin Stardust fan club.


You must be out of your tiny little mind


----------



## charlie mowbray (Sep 19, 2022)

Latest fuckwittery from Mason:








						Let’s rebuild our relationship with the royals to create a fairer Britain
					

It’s time to formalise Britain’s “monarchic republic”




					www.theneweuropean.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 19, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> Latest fuckwittery from Mason:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The People’s Monarchy project


----------



## ska invita (Sep 19, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The People’s Monarchy project


she already IS The Peoples Monarch!!!11!






When you fly into one of London's airports there's a massive portrait of her with THE PEOPLES QUEEN emblazoned on it too. Paul Mason would be delighted


----------



## brogdale (Sep 27, 2022)

The (other) people's war.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 27, 2022)

charlie mowbray said:


> Latest fuckwittery from Mason:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If anyone is still in doubt that Mason has completely lost the plot, then this news should dispel it completely. If he can't even reject fucking _monarchy_, then what is the difference between him and any standard-issue lickspittle?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2022)

I wonder what a Starmer victory will do for him


----------



## tim (Sep 28, 2022)

NoXion said:


> If anyone is still in doubt that Mason has completely lost the plot, then this news should dispel it completely. If he can't even reject fucking _monarchy_, then what is the difference between him and any standard-issue lickspittle?


He may be a lickspittle but he's far from standard issue.


----------



## belboid (Sep 29, 2022)

I think you can guess the reaction from his former colleagues still in local radio.  Twat


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 29, 2022)

belboid said:


> View attachment 344974
> 
> I think you can guess the reaction from his former colleagues still in local radio.  Twat


There was a bit on Radio 4's _Today_ about this this morning, and TBF based on the compendium of clips, Truss was getting roundly spanked in a variety of provincial accents so 🤷

ETA
Particularly liked the woman asking "So how much pain do you think should [area] people endure as a result of your actions?"


----------



## Knotted (Sep 29, 2022)

Monarchical republic?

It's a constitutional monarchy. Everybody calls it that. Pro or anti. Because that's what it is. Everybody knows that it is more democratic than an absolute monarchy. Why make turn something that's plain into something complicated and contradictory? Big brain at work here.


----------



## inva (Sep 29, 2022)

Knotted said:


> Monarchical republic?
> 
> It's a constitutional monarchy. Everybody calls it that. Pro or anti. Because that's what it is. Everybody knows that it is more democratic than an absolute monarchy. Why make turn something that's plain into something complicated and contradictory? Big brain at work here.


You'll never believe this one simple trick to allow a proper serious marxist to support the monarchy!


----------



## SysOut (Sep 29, 2022)

inva said:


> You'll never believe this one simple trick to allow a proper serious marxist to support the monarchy!


Nonsense. To keep it short: if that "simple" trick would work, by definiton that person could not be a marxist.
Is science a thing or a method?

Paul Mason, in case no one has noticed, is an opportunist who is trying to earn a living.



Knotted said:


> Everybody knows that it is more democratic than an absolute monarchy.


We do not *know* since talks between the PM and the monarch are secret as are  meetings of the Privy Council.

One thing we do know is that the absolute monarch is wide open to blame for anything that goes wrong, whereas the constititutional monarchy can pretend it had nothing to do with the governance of the state.


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## tim (Sep 29, 2022)

As was said about Charles the Second.

*Here lies our sovereign lord the king,
Whose word no man relies on;
He never says a foolish thing,
Nor ever does a wise one.*


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## Dom Traynor (Sep 29, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> There was a bit on Radio 4's _Today_ about this this morning, and TBF based on the compendium of clips, Truss was getting roundly spanked in a variety of provincial accents so 🤷
> 
> ETA
> Particularly liked the woman asking "So how much pain do you think should [area] people endure as a result of your actions?"


Thanks for the new fetish. 😡


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## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2022)




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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 6, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 345998



He'll be spinning in his grave at some of the clowns - Mason definitely included - posing as serious marxists these days


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## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He'll be spinning in his grave at some of the clowns - Mason definitely included - posing as serious marxists these days


The gap between Marxist writers then and now is remarkable tbh .

Anyway Masons new project is  The Peoples Different left


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## emanymton (Oct 6, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The gap between Marxist writers then and now is remarkable tbh .
> 
> Anyway Masons new project is  The Peoples Different left



Leaving everything else to one side.
Does he really think Starmer would do any of those things? Because I think there is no chance.


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 6, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The gap between Marxist writers then and now is remarkable tbh .



The Making of the English Working Class v 

Discuss...


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## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2022)

emanymton said:


> Leaving everything else to one side.
> Does he really think Starmer would do any of those things? Because I think there is no chance.


God knows what he thinks tbh. He seems to like to give the impression that he is the centre of some imaginary progressive project for the masses on every possible occasion. I agree with you btw


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## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The Making of the Englsh Working Class v
> 
> Discuss...



😂 😂 😂


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## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 6, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> 😂 😂 😂


Thanks for bumping the video, still hilarious. 
"Hey guys, there's no black people in here. Let's move onto somewhere else"


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## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2022)

Mason bemoaning that his nights out on the prowl are being ruined by a lack of women students


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## Shechemite (Oct 6, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 345998



EP Thompson?

eta Yeah obviously sorry thread reading fail (again)


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## RD2003 (Oct 6, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The Making of the English Working Class v
> 
> Discuss...



When I became a mature student in my mid-late 20s, there was a vocal posh minority on my course who used to come out with such quips as 'What's the best thing about the Spanish civil war? Lots of Spaniards died in it,' and bemoan not being able to get on the university photocopiers because of all the foreigners copying loads of stuff that was nothing to do with their courses just because it was free. Think they'd have happily gone to Wigan.

That was almost 30 years ago. Don't know if things have changed in studentland.


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## AmateurAgitator (Oct 6, 2022)

RD2003 said:


> When I became a mature student in my mid-late 20s, there was a vocal posh minority on my course who used to come out with such quips as 'What's the best thing about the Spanish civil war? Lots of Spaniards died in it,' and bemoan not being able to get on the university photocopiers because of all the foreigners copying loads of stuff that was nothing to do with their courses just because it was free. Think they'd have happily gone to Wigan.
> 
> That was almost 30 years ago. Don't know if things have changed in studentland.


The same sort of vibe when I was doing my politics course. Obnoxious right wingers, and liberals aswell tbh.


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## RD2003 (Oct 6, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> The same sort of vibe when I was doing my politics course. Obnoxious right wingers, and liberals aswell tbh.


Think Mason might have been surprised when he saw UKIP getting a good reception from many students in one of their strongholds a mile or two down the road from here, during a street leafletting they did in the Brexit campaign. I was watching for some time, on and off, from the window of Costa, with mild interest.


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## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> The same sort of vibe when I was doing my politics course. Obnoxious right wingers, and liberals aswell tbh.


You’ve done a politics course ?


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## CNT36 (Oct 6, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The Making of the English Working Class v
> 
> Discuss...



It's almost like watching David Attenborough versus Martin Goodman for the joystick behind Paul's eyes.


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## hitmouse (Oct 6, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Thanks for bumping the video, still hilarious.
> "Hey guys, there's no black people in here. Let's move onto somewhere else"


I'm still annoyed that the bloody Queen dying ruined my trip to Wigan, so I still don't have hard proof one way or the other about whether they have chairs or women there.


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## tim (Oct 6, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I'm still annoyed that the bloody Queen dying ruined my trip to Wigan, so I still don't have hard proof one way or the other about whether they have chairs or women there.


Or people wearing blackface in an attempt to attract a student clientele.


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## SysOut (Oct 6, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I'm still annoyed that the bloody Queen dying ruined my trip to Wigan, so I still don't have hard proof one way or the other about whether they have chairs or women there.


The pier, the pier, tell me about the pier.


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 6, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I'm still annoyed that the bloody Queen dying ruined my trip to Wigan, so I still don't have hard proof one way or the other about whether they have chairs or women there.



We’ll have a whip round to fund a trip up for you. Someone needs to visit the place and report back on the accuracy of Mason’s claims.


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## Dystopiary (Oct 7, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I'm still annoyed that the bloody Queen dying ruined my trip to Wigan, so I still don't have hard proof one way or the other about whether they have chairs or women there.


_Females._ They are there in Wigan, but they only come out at a certain time.


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## emanymton (Oct 7, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I'm still annoyed that the bloody Queen dying ruined my trip to Wigan, so I still don't have hard proof one way or the other about whether they have chairs or women there.


Pretty sure a trip to Wigan is ruined by the fact you have to go to Wigan.


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## The39thStep (Oct 7, 2022)

emanymton said:


> Pretty sure a trip to Wigan is ruined by the fact you have to go to Wigan.


Pies are good


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## emanymton (Oct 7, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Pies are good


Only because of the history of scabing.


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## hitmouse (Oct 8, 2022)

emanymton said:


> Pretty sure a trip to Wigan is ruined by the fact you have to go to Wigan.


You'd think someone with Mason's Northern Soul credentials would appreciate its cultural significance as the home of the Casino.


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## Serge Forward (Oct 8, 2022)

You'd think. But he's a fucking idiot.


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## The39thStep (Oct 8, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> You'd think someone with Mason's Northern Soul credentials would appreciate its cultural significance as the home of the Casino.


Paul ‘ I got fed up with northern soul when it refused to move on’ Mason


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 9, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> You'd think someone with Mason's Northern Soul credentials would appreciate its cultural significance as the home of the Casino.



Did they have any seats in there?


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## PR1Berske (Oct 17, 2022)




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## belboid (Oct 17, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



Everyone’s going for central, toys almost think it had a 30k Labour majority or something (after being a libscum then green hopeful).  

Unless Starmer fixes the shortlist they have no chance.  It’ll be a local.


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## hitmouse (Oct 17, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



WHY is he SHOUTING?


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## 8ball (Oct 17, 2022)

Mason is the leader of a clan. Mason is the limelight. Mason sums up and concentrates certain principles which are considered to be anarchistic. In short, Mason is a dangerous person who has great changes. ... He is consequently marked for blows. It is at him that all the harquebuses are aimed. It is on his head that are dumped the most aromatic containers of the so-called serious critics.


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## ska invita (Oct 17, 2022)

8ball said:


> Mason is the leader of a clan. Mason is the limelight. Mason sums up and concentrates certain principles which are considered to be anarchistic. In short, Mason is a dangerous person who has great changes. ... He is consequently marked for blows. It is at him that all the harquebuses are aimed. It is on his head that are dumped the most aromatic containers of the so-called serious critics.



Mason is the leader of a clan.
Mason is the limelight.

Mason sums up
   and concentrates
       certain principles
          which are considered to be
 anarchistic.

In short, Mason is a dangerous person
who has great changes.
 He is consequently marked
for blows.

It is at him
that all
the harquebuses
are aimed.

It is on his
head
that are dumped
the most aromatic containers
of the so-called serious critics.


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## 8ball (Oct 17, 2022)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 347595
> Mason is the leader of a clan.
> Mason is the limelight.
> 
> ...



Very much an improvement, many thanks.


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## JimW (Oct 17, 2022)

You wait ages for one harquebus then two come along at once.


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## redsquirrel (Oct 17, 2022)

Is this just going to be a thing with Mason for any Labour seat (in the North) going. 

It's pathetic how desperate the prat is to be an MP


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## SysOut (Oct 17, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> Is this just going to be a thing with Mason for any Labour seat (in the North) going.
> 
> It's pathetic how desperate the prat is to be an MP


Regular income and a pension.
MEP would have been even better.


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## belboid (Oct 17, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> Is this just going to be a thing with Mason for any Labour seat (in the North) going.
> 
> It's pathetic how desperate the prat is to be an MP


He went to uni here, same as Eddie Izzard.


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## NoXion (Oct 17, 2022)

belboid said:


> View attachment 344974
> 
> I think you can guess the reaction from his former colleagues still in local radio.  Twat



I got an unmistakeably different impression of the way Truss was treated by local radio interviewers. This is really piss-poor.


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## PR1Berske (Oct 17, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> WHY is he SHOUTING?


I have wondered that myself though if you read his feed it appears to be his style


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## 8ball (Oct 17, 2022)

belboid said:


> He went to uni here, same as Eddie Izzard.



Is Eddie Izzard going for being an MP?
<I’d heard some weird squeaking from the right wing press but wasn’t sure if there was anything behind it>


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## Sue (Oct 17, 2022)

8ball said:


> Is Eddie Izzard going for being an MP?
> <I’d heard some weird squeaking from the right wing press but wasn’t sure if there was anything behind it>


Was he not alking about standing for London Mayor/the LA ages ago..?


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## 8ball (Oct 17, 2022)

Sue said:


> Was he not alking about standing for London Mayor/the LA ages ago..?



LA?


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## hitmouse (Oct 17, 2022)

8ball said:


> LA?


Presumably London Assembly in this context?


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## belboid (Oct 17, 2022)

8ball said:


> Is Eddie Izzard going for being an MP?
> <I’d heard some weird squeaking from the right wing press but wasn’t sure if there was anything behind it>


She has voiced her desire to be the candidate for Sheffield Central


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## redsquirrel (Oct 18, 2022)

belboid said:


> He went to uni here, same as Eddie Izzard.


40 years ago. Unless there's something else I hardly think that is some deep local connection.


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## The39thStep (Oct 18, 2022)

" I was proud to give the graduation speech in 2014, when the University awarded me an honorary doctorate."









						Paul Mason for Sheffield Central
					

I’m Paul Mason – and I am asking you to help me become the next Labour MP for Sheffield Central. I joined the Labour Party in Sheffield in 1979 – and stood on the first mass picket of the Thatcher era, at the Hadfields steel works. And I haven’t stopped fighting for social justice since. […]



					www.paulmason.org


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## 8ball (Oct 18, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Presumably London Assembly in this context?



Bit of my ignorance of London political machinery showing there..


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 18, 2022)

“Imagine the nazis had a time machine…Brexit….seats in Wigan ale houses…..spy’s….for a workers NATO”


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## LDC (Oct 18, 2022)

Shit nightclub bouncer / bouncer for shit nightclub.


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## Sue (Oct 18, 2022)

LDC said:


> Shit nightclub bouncer / bouncer for shit nightclub.


_Steward_ and_ niteclub _I think you'll find.


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## The39thStep (Nov 11, 2022)

Never underestimate the influence of Putin apologists in Sheffield


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 12, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> View attachment 347728
> 
> “Imagine the nazis had a time machine…Brexit….seats in Wigan ale houses…..spy’s….for a workers NATO”



Another jug-eared know-nothing, blethering fuckwit.

He'll do great as an MP in Smarmer's New New Labour.


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## The39thStep (Nov 14, 2022)

Onwards and ever upwards


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## Smokeandsteam (Nov 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Onwards and ever upwards
> 
> View attachment 351544



‘Out of the running’ is a novel way of describing receiving no votes and coming last…


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## The39thStep (Nov 14, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> ‘Out of the running’ is a novel way of describing receiving no votes and coming last…


It’s the taking part that is important ( from a Marxist perspective)


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## Smokeandsteam (Nov 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> It’s the taking part that is important ( from a Marxist perspective)



“Some useful conversations took place, useful contacts were made. Some of those I spoke to said they’d consider buying the paper next week”


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## belboid (Nov 14, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> ‘Out of the running’ is a novel way of describing receiving no votes and coming last…


This the Labour Party though. Getting no votes and coming last hasn’t stopped lots of other candidates (that support Starmer) getting the nomination

(Indeed I now see that the person who tied for last place with 0 noms _did_ get shortlisted. )


----------

