# Nour cash and carry in Brixton  faces another hefty  rent rise



## Brixton Hatter (Mar 31, 2011)

As mentioned on the brixton chitter chatter thread, this one deserves a thread of it's own. Here's a summary:



nick h. said:


> Nour Cash & Carry to close.   Their rent is being increased massively.


 



tarannau said:


> Giant dog's cock. That's one of the most useful stores in Brixton by a long way, with a reliably huge range of stuff.
> 
> The balance in the market is taking a turn for the worst if they're being forced out, the predictions sadly coming true. No amount of sodding vegan cupcake and gluten-free fakeries will make up for the loss of affordable and everyday stores like that one.


 


nick h. said:


> In a way the vegan cupcake people are part of the problem. They paid top whack and made no attempt to negotiate the rent. But it is their first shop and perhaps they don't know the ropes. They're burning loadsamoney on fitting out their shop, marketing etc.
> 
> Seems to me that individual tenants are being bullied with ease by the market landlord. They don't seem to have any organisation. I'm no expert onthese things, but might it help if they all used the same commercial agent and organised some more public support. Is there someone on here from Friends of Brixton Market who could fill us in? There must be a few urbs who would pitch in to help. I would. Maybe the market needs its own thread?





gaijingirl said:


> Re Nour: That's very sad news indeed.... a real loss.  It's an amazing shop.


 



Brixton Hatter said:


> That's awful news if it's true.
> 
> But if Nour - who are basically packed all the time - cant survive there, who can?
> 
> Increasing the rents could just lead to loads of empty shops no-one can afford to rent.


 




nick h. said:


> Had a chat with Shaheen the owner. Yes, they're closing in Sept, with no plans to relocate. Seems that he and many other tenants have been ruthlessly shafted by the landlord. One of the stunts they pulled was a retrospective rent increase swiftly followed by a demand for £10,000 rent arrears! The tenants have no organisation and negotiate individually. Trying to get them to work together has proven difficult in the past because they don't have time to close up and come to a meeting and they're scared of the landlord. Sounds like meat and drink for a commercial estate agent and a commercial property lawyer.


 



uk benzo said:


> Just some anecdotal stuff about Nour's that justify supporting that place:
> - The staff have always been so helpful to my Mrs when she's come in struggling with shopping bags + baby in hand
> - They are the only people to stock my Arabic groceries + fresh fruit and veg at a price that's cheaper than the Arabic shops on Edgeware Road + big supermarkets
> - Spice selection second-to-none
> ...


 
I'm gutted. It's one of my favourite shops in the market. It sounds disgraceful the way they've been treated. 

Nick h - do you get the feeling the owners are resigned to defeat? Or are they perhaps up for putting up a bit of a fight?

I would be more than happy to help them....


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## ash (Mar 31, 2011)

I agree with the previous posts.  Nour is one of the main reasons i go to the market I can't believe it is going, where will I get all my spices from.  It is also very cheap and the stock is amazing - so sad to think it will no longer be there
RIP Nour


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## editor (Mar 31, 2011)

Here's the address of the place: 23 Market Row, Brixton, London, SW9 8LD http://goo.gl/maps/v8aH


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## fortyplus (Mar 31, 2011)

This is all LAP's fault. It'll be service charges, not rent that's the problem, but it doesn't really matter what you call it. The "traditional trades" in the market are on 3 or 10 yr leases, where the service charges can be added almost at the landlord's whim, while the newer places are mostly on 1-year licences with fixed service charges. LAP made it a practice to divide and rule, suggesting that the new gentrifying places had interests diametrically-opposed to the traditional trades, and worked to keep it that way. They loaded lots of costs that they, the landlords, should have borne directly, onto the service charge, perhaps intentionally to drive out the traditional trades, and took the risk that they wouldn't be challenged. 

Not surprised that Nours have had enough of it, but it is a catastrophic loss for the market.

However, the new landlords take over as from tomorrow.

I have no idea whether they are going to be any better than LAP but at least they know they can't raze-and-redevelop, which is what LAP always wanted to do until it was all listed.  

Hopefully they will give a fuck, unlike anyone at LAP or in the market management office. 

*If* they do, then *perhaps* they can be persuaded to do a fairer deal with Nour so that they stay. I'd say it's worth a try.


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## Rushy (Mar 31, 2011)

fortyplus said:


> However, the new landlords take over as from tomorrow.
> .



Did LAP sell? Who are new landlords / owners?


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## fbm (Mar 31, 2011)

LAP decided to slap lots of leaseholder traders with a big back-rent demand last year. My understanding is that LAP told the leaseholders they wouldn't review their rents during the proposed redevelopment of the market. When that didn't happen, they decided to get it all back. Traders have been trying to negotiate with them, speak to lawyers etc, but it's all an uphill struggle. Then there are the service charge increases, and for Nour the closure of the carpark is a disaster (good riddance to Sally Prentice chucked out of the cabinet btw)

I don't think there is a new landlord, LAP are employing a management agent. Seems likely from what I've heard from traders that it's these people: http://www.inshopsretail.com

They're owned by Group Geraud who are a big French market-operator who I've heard good and bad about.

The traders are not optimistic that they'll be any better than LAP's direct management. But it could be a new start of some sort. If they at the very least get rid of the financial control staff who make the traders lives a misery and padlock them at the drop of a hat, and have some vague idea of how to run a market that'd be an improvement. I hope they completely overhaul the management of the place and the licenses and leases they're all on, set up decent communication with the traders, stop trying to divide and rule, start to be transparent about the service charges, and start to treat the traders with respect. 

The big question is whether they're clever enough to come up with ways to keep LAP happy while making sure the market continues to serve people on low incomes and keep its character.


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## Rushy (Mar 31, 2011)

I don't get the whole back rent thing. How does that work? Is that normal in commercial contracts?

In your opinion, have the market traders been taking a unified approach as far as possible?



> The big question is whether they're clever enough to come up with ways to keep LAP happy while making sure the market continues to serve people on low incomes and keep its character.


You say clever enough, but is that really in *their* interests at all? Surely they just want to keep LAP happy and LAP have always wanted higher margin tenants?

When/why was Sally kicked out of the cabinet? Her photo was still on the cabinet board in the Town Hall yesterday.

Sorry for all the ???s!


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## fbm (Mar 31, 2011)

> I don't get the whole back rent thing. How does that work? Is that normal in commercial contracts?


It seems landlords can hold rent reviews when they like. It's bad practice to hold back a load of reviews for 3 years, but they can do it. There's more to it than this, but I don't want to talk through in public.



> You say clever enough, but is that really in their interests at all? Surely they just want to keep LAP happy and LAP have always wanted higher margin tenants?



Well it could be in their interest couldn't it? If they get high volume low cost independent businesses in, they'd meet the rent the same no? And if they got lots of bad PR if they pursued high margin tenants?



> When/why was Sally kicked out of the cabinet? Her photo was still on the cabinet board in the Town Hall yesterday.



At a Labour group meeting a couple of weeks apparently. It was in the SLP. 
I don't know precisely why - I just assume enough Labour councillors finally saw sense about her.


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## co-op (Mar 31, 2011)

fbm said:


> At a Labour group meeting a couple of weeks apparently. It was in the SLP.
> I don't know precisely why - I just assume enough Labour councillors finally saw sense about her.



I know it's off-topic but excellent news about Sally Prentice; she was like some Nu Labour Zombie. I have never heard someone so at ease with meaningless management jargon.


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## Rushy (Mar 31, 2011)

fbm said:


> Well it could be in their interest couldn't it? If they get high volume low cost independent businesses in, they'd meet the rent the same no? And if they got lots of bad PR if they pursued high margin tenants?



OK - high volume low cost retailers which can afford to pay the higher rents. I get you. Will many of the existing traders will be able to fit that bill?


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## nick h. (Mar 31, 2011)

Shaheen says he will stay if the rent can go back to the level it was at two months ago. I said I would start a campaign to get a rent reduction and that lots of people want to help. He has nothing to lose by irritating the landlord/agent, so he's up for all manner of tactics. But he doesn't have a spare minute in his life (7 days a week in the shop, plus night time trips to New Covent Garden) so it's up to us to make it all happen. By 'us' I mean urban, Friends of Brixton Market (I hope ) and whoever else we can rope in. I don't speak for FBM and hope I'm not treading on anyone's toes.

The retrospective rent increase described in post #6 by fbm may have been illegal. Another tenant consulted a solicitor about it and was told he had a good chance of winning in court. But not enough tenants could be found to share the legal bill of £6,000 - £8,000, so the idea was dropped. (I'm not naming the tenant cos I don't have his permission and he may not want heat from the landlord who will read all this at some stage.)

I suspect we all feel that our objective should be not just to cut Nour's rent but to install some sort of framework to keep rents fair and affordable for all in the long term. We want to protect the social value of the market as a place where people on low incomes can buy the essentials.  And we want to preserve its character. What does everyone think?

In terms of tactics, off the top of my head I'm thinking, in no particular order:

- a petition in Nour for customers and tenants to sign
- letter writing campaign to LAP, the new agent, the agent's owners, local MPs and councillors
- talk to the above solicitor and the tenant who consulted him
- Facebook group
- Twitter feed
- publish Nour's tenancy agreement and demands for rent increases online, with lawyers'/surveyors'/agents' written opinions of them. If the landlord has done something illegal perhaps this will shame him into undoing things without the cost and delay of legal action. But if the landlord wants to take it to court, publishing the docs would help raise money for a fighting fund. IANAL, but as this would be a civil case _sub judice_ doesn't apply until a date for a hearing is set
- interview with South London Press followed (hopefully) by national press if the campaign gains momentum
E2A - make a documentary. (An amateur docu maker is interested.) 

Fighting market forces by pressuring a landlord to cut his rent may sound quixotic, but it seems to me we do have some valid arguments:

1) one of the recent rent increases may have been illegal
2) it's not in the landlord's interests to drive out tenants who attract customers from all over south London 
3) it's not in the interests of other Brixton businesses or the Council for the same reason
4) given that the market building is now preserved for the community by listed building status, the tenants should also be protected by means of a fair rent scheme. Otherwise the market will become a soulless monument full of high street chains or tourist tat and its social value to the community will be diminished. Maybe there's nothing in law to impose a fair rent scheme in this scenario, but there is a sort of precedent in planning law, whereby local authorities require a portion of a new housing development to be affordable. 

So what does everyone think? And who wants to do what?


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## Rushy (Mar 31, 2011)

As a free starting point for getting legal advice I would thoroughly recommend this forum http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?8-Commercial-Property-Questions . Don't be put off by the name - it offers advice equally to both Tenants and Landlords and is pretty dismissive of sharp practice by either. It is not unlike U75 and other forums in that there is often quite a lot of banter in between the gems - less so in the commercial forum - but there are several topic experts who will point tenants or landlords in the right direction and give a little push.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 31, 2011)

Yup, I'll second that. I've recommended them dozens of times on here.


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## Brixton Hatter (Mar 31, 2011)

Excellent ideas Nick. I'd also be interested in what influence the council / local councillors could have. 

I'd be very happy to help. But perhaps the first step would be to speak to Friends of Brixton market and see what they think, given their knowledge and connections. I'll do this.

Anyone else up for helping?


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## newbie (Mar 31, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I'm gutted. It's one of my favourite shops in the market. It sounds disgraceful the way they've been treated.


 
+1

I really like that place


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## boohoo (Mar 31, 2011)

happy to help.


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## nick h. (Mar 31, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Excellent ideas Nick. I'd also be interested in what influence the council / local councillors could have.
> 
> I'd be very happy to help. But perhaps the first step would be to speak to Friends of Brixton market and see what they think, given their knowledge and connections. I'll do this.
> 
> Anyone else up for helping?



Cool. I'll get a copy of Nour's tenancy agreement etc. and talk to the tenant who instructed a solicitor.


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## nick h. (Mar 31, 2011)

boohoo said:


> happy to help.


 
Great! Perhaps when we've gathered more info we can make a plan and parcel some jobs out.


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## Ms T (Mar 31, 2011)

I can help with media - I have a contact at BBC London.


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## nick h. (Mar 31, 2011)

Triffic!


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## pugwash (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm probably not a great deal of use professionally, but I can write a good letter - so will be pleased to sign petitions/write to whoever etc...


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## nick h. (Apr 1, 2011)

If anyone wants to meet to talk tactics, put 10 am tomorrow at Rosie's in your diary. It's tbc, but I'm hoping that FBM will be there.


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## lindyinbrixton (Apr 1, 2011)

Hello,
I'm a journalist and will over the next weeks be working on newsdesks for several South London papers. I am very interested in writing an article on Brixton village and how it is so rapidly changing. Please keep me updated about your plans and thoughts on lindyinbrixton@gmail.com.....

Thanks!


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## nick h. (Apr 1, 2011)

I doubt that approach is going to succeed. If you want to be regarded as a legitimate press contact please supply your full name and a way we can verify that you are a journalist, e.g. links to bylined pieces and the phone number of these newsdesks.


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## editor (Apr 1, 2011)

lindyinbrixton said:


> Hello,
> I'm a journalist and will over the next weeks be working on newsdesks for several South London papers. I am very interested in writing an article on Brixton village and how it is so rapidly changing. Please keep me updated about your plans and thoughts on lindyinbrixton@gmail.com.....
> 
> Thanks!


So you expect people here to just spoonfeed you stories, even though you haven't explained who you are or who you write for?


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## TruXta (Apr 1, 2011)

Isn't that what most journos do anyway? IME they're a bunch of lazy, no-good wankers who habitually make shit up even when it serves no purpose. Of course there are good ones, but the majority are morons.


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## uk benzo (Apr 2, 2011)

What ever forms need signing, my family and I will sign them.


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## Nour (May 26, 2011)

Hey guys & gals!

This is Nour speaking (from Nour Cash & Carry) I'd just like to say thank you all so much for your support, it is much appreciated! Regarding the posts about our shop closing down I have good news - We aren't going anywhere, they can't get rid of us without a fight! Plus we could never let all our amazing customers & staff down. Anyway I just wanted to let you all know, so the panic is over  thank you for being such lovely customers. We really couldn't do it without you. Hope to see you all soon 

Nour x


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## Belushi (May 26, 2011)

Great news Nour!


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## Mrs Magpie (May 26, 2011)




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## Nour (May 27, 2011)




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## stevebradley (May 27, 2011)

Great news Nour.

The Brixton Pound supply mapping exercise identified you as a key supplier to a number of other businesses in Brixton, which shows that you're a cornerstone of the local economy. A lot of those businesses also said they wanted to spend their Brixton Pounds in your shop but unfortunately couldn't.

So any chance you'll accept the Brixton Pound now that things are looking good on the rent/lease.....?


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## ash (May 27, 2011)

Brilliant news Nour !!!


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## gaijingirl (May 27, 2011)

hurrah!


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## boohoo (May 27, 2011)

Great news!!


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## han (May 29, 2011)

oh that is fantastic news! I love your shop, you have the best veg in Brixton and spices from everywhere. So glad to hear this!


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## Brixton Hatter (May 29, 2011)

excellent 

ANd welcome to Urban 75 Nour


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## trabuquera (May 30, 2011)

Oooooohhhh that's the best news I've had this month. Thank you, Nour, for joining and for letting us know the shop's staying. You can add me to your list of loyal customers and supporters.


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## kikiscrumbles (Oct 5, 2011)

Hi all - I'm a newbie [tho 10 yrs in Brixton] - please don't flame me if I don't get the lingo / ettiquette right first time! I've discovered this thread as I'm keen to do something to help the marketeers out if I can. I have no particular expertise but am [semi-]literate and have some free time - plus I'm keen. I see this thread finished in May, but there were some excellent ideas about trying to establish fair rents, esp. for the longer-standing traders like Nour, threatened with impossible [and poss. illegal] financial demands. Is anybody out there still up for trying to help out? Any ideas / advice / expertise / useful email addresses at the Town Hall / well anything really! would be a great starting point. I'd be really grateful.. Best to all, and thanks in advance.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 5, 2011)

I'd contact the Brixton Market Traders Federation and Friends of Brixton Market. Here's their website.
http://www.friendsofbrixtonmarket.org/news/


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## kikiscrumbles (Oct 5, 2011)

Thank you so much, i will pursue.


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## eroom (Oct 12, 2011)

Incidently, could we change this thread's title to something like 'Plucky, Much-Loved Nour Not to Close Despite Massive Unfair Rent Hike?

Whenever I glimpse the title in its current form I panic slightly, again...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 12, 2011)

eroom said:


> Incidently, could we change this thread's title to something like 'Plucky, Much-Loved Nour Not to Close Despite Massive Unfair Rent Hike?
> 
> Whenever I glimpse the title in its current form I panic slightly, again...


 
I like that, it's very catchy


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 24, 2012)

Just noticed that Nour put this on their Twitter last week:


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 24, 2012)




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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 24, 2012)

would be good if the mods could change the title of the thread to something like "Nour Cash and Carry suffering massive unfair rent hikes" just to make it clear that they're not thinking of closing this time - they want to fight this. Cheers 

@editor


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## Crispy (Nov 24, 2012)

I can see why the nu-market would want Nour out. Their unit is bigger than the others, with that lovely rooflight. Bet they could rent it at twice the price to someone else


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## Badgers (Nov 24, 2012)

sad to read 

Nour is one of the places that really helps if people are trying to avoid supermarket shops.


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## editor (Nov 24, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> would be good if the mods could change the title of the thread to something like "Nour Cash and Carry suffering massive unfair rent hikes" just to make it clear that they're not thinking of closing this time - they want to fight this. Cheers
> 
> @editor


I see you got told off on Twitter 

*Title edited.


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## uk benzo (Nov 24, 2012)

The irony is that most of these nu-market foodie places depend on Nour's well valued products for their own offerings.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 24, 2012)

just so fed up with all this really.


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## editor (Nov 24, 2012)

It's been coming a long time.

The arrival of the corporate ad agency-backed frozen yoghurt place truly marked the beginning of the end, along with all these trendy 'independent' chain foodie places looking to expand their empires out of Shoreditch or wherever it is they come from.

If you spend your money in these places, more will follow.


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## colacubes (Nov 24, 2012)

Next step is some of the independent restaurants go out of business and corporates like Pizza Express and Giraffe will take over.  I've had a horrible feeling this would be the endgame from the start


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## madolesance (Nov 24, 2012)

ASC Studios who have space's above the units in Granville Arcade have just been left with no option but to evict the artist's as this is the only solution for them to legally challenge the landlords. Landlords want to redevelop/ reconfigure the space,(make loads more money).


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## hassan (Nov 25, 2012)

Where exactly is nour?


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## TruXta (Nov 25, 2012)

hassan said:


> Where exactly is nour?


Go in Market Row past Franco Manca, continue down towards the Atlantic Road exit and it'll come up on your left just after all the trendy places.


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## Badgers (Nov 25, 2012)

editor said:
			
		

> It's been coming a long time.
> 
> The arrival of the corporate ad agency-backed frozen yoghurt place truly marked the beginning of the end, along with all these trendy 'independent' chain foodie places looking to expand their empires out of Shoreditch or wherever it is they come from.
> 
> If you spend your money in these places, more will follow.



The frozen yoghurt place is the single most pointless place in Brixton


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## Greebo (Nov 25, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Go in Market Row past Franco Manca, continue down towards the Atlantic Road exit and it'll come up on your left just after all the trendy places.


Alternatively, stick to the right hand edge of the bit of the market between Boots and Iceland and keep walking until you see a very deep narrow opening lined with fruit and veg.  This is the other entrance to Nour.


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## TruXta (Nov 25, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Alternatively, stick to the right hand edge of the bit of the market between Boots and Iceland and keep walking until you see a very deep narrow opening lined with fruit and veg. This is the other entrance to Nour.


Yup, altho it's easier to see the signs inside Market Row IME.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 25, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I can see why the nu-market would want Nour out. Their unit is bigger than the others, with that lovely rooflight. Bet they could rent it at twice the price to someone else


Yes I was thinking this the other day - I'm sure the space would make a suitable cafe/restaurant  

That's one of the problems with the changes in the market - food is pushing out retail. You need a mix of all really.


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## Badgers (Nov 25, 2012)

There is more than enough food choice already


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## leanderman (Nov 25, 2012)

Has anyone tried Wishbone, the fried chicken place?


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## TruXta (Nov 25, 2012)

I've heard it's cack.


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## Badgers (Nov 25, 2012)

leanderman said:
			
		

> Has anyone tried Wishbone, the fried chicken place?



The Brixton Blog did a pretty damning review just as it had opened. I will give it a try one day.


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## editor (Nov 25, 2012)

leanderman said:


> Has anyone tried Wishbone, the fried chicken place?


They're another of those trendy foodie places that has decided to expand their empires by moving into Brixton. I wonder how many of the new businesses operating in Market Row/Village are actually home-grown independent ones rather than wannabe chains or - in the case of the yoghurt place - multi national franchises.


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## leanderman (Nov 25, 2012)

editor said:


> They're another of those trendy foodie places that has decided to expand their empires by moving into Brixton. I wonder how many of the new businesses operating in Market Row/Village are actually home-grown independent ones rather than wannabe chains or - in the case of the yoghurt place - multi national franchises.


 
Good point.

On the other hand, Franco Manca (Chiswick, Northcote Rd and Westfield East), Kaosarn (Battersea) and Honest (Soho) have expanded _from_ Brixton.


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## editor (Nov 25, 2012)

leanderman said:


> Good point.
> 
> On the other hand, Franco Manca (Chiswick, Northcote Rd and Westfield East), Kaosarn (Battersea) and Honest (Soho) have expanded _from_ Brixton.


I heard Federation are about to expand out too.


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## Winot (Nov 25, 2012)

leanderman said:


> Good point.
> 
> On the other hand, Franco Manca (Chiswick, Northcote Rd and Westfield East), Kaosarn (Battersea) and Honest (Soho) have expanded _from_ Brixton.



I wonder whether the people who live in those places are complaining about trendy incomers?


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## colacubes (Nov 25, 2012)

Winot said:


> I wonder whether the people who live in those places are complaining about trendy incomers?


 
Probably not.  But then it's a rather unique problem in Brixton.  The landlords are pushing rents higher and higher to force out stores who have supported the community for a long time so they can get trendier/more on message places in.  And they'll have no compunction to push out some of the early adopters in the market if they think they can get more money.  Now the building's listed their priority is make a shit load of money through business instead of make a shit load of money by running it down and then selling it off to be knocked down and rebuilt as flats.


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## Winot (Nov 25, 2012)

I feel sorry for Nour (and for anyone who gets pushed out because of rents going up). I'm not sure that much can be done about it though, and I think to some extent it's the story of London - areas rise and fall.


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## colacubes (Nov 25, 2012)

Winot said:


> I feel sorry for Nour (and for anyone who gets pushed out because of rents going up). I'm not sure that much can be done about it though, and I think to some extent it's the story of London - areas rise and fall.


 
This is entirely true.  But it's been sped up about 1000% in Brixton over the last 2 years.  And is probably why so many people have a problem with it. Gentrification happens.  But the pace of change (and the passion of the council to milk it) is extreme and is having an effect on everything really quickly.  Rent has gone up massively in the private sector, and that will have a knock on effect in terms of LA rent.  Squats and short life tenancies are suddenly being kicked out because there's a sudden realisation that the council can make money on it.  People I know who've lived her for nearly 20 years are being forced out through cost.  And the demographic changes irreversibly. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your point of view but it is very much happening.


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## Winot (Nov 25, 2012)

Yes, I'm sure you're right about the pace of change. And I can see that a lot of people are losing out as a result. Some no, I'm not an unalloyed libertarian on this topic. To some extent though, I suspect that the pace of change is a result of Brixton being 'artifically ungentrified' for quite a while - ugly phrase but what I mean is it's got so much going for it as we all know who live here and yet because of prejudice/historical factors it's been ignored/discounted for a long time. Now the genie's out of the bottle and I'm not sure it can be put back.


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## colacubes (Nov 25, 2012)

Winot said:


> Yes, I'm sure you're right about the pace of change. And I can see that a lot of people are losing out as a result. Some no, I'm not an unalloyed libertarian on this topic. To some extent though, I suspect that the pace of change is a result of Brixton being 'artifically ungentrified' for quite a while - ugly phrase but what I mean is it's got so much going for it as we all know who live here and yet because of prejudice/historical factors it's been ignored/discounted for a long time. *Now the genie's out of the bottle and I'm not sure it can be put back.*


 
Sadly, I couldn't agree more with the sentence I've bolded.


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## leanderman (Nov 25, 2012)

Winot said:


> Yes, I'm sure you're right about the pace of change. And I can see that a lot of people are losing out as a result. Some no, I'm not an unalloyed libertarian on this topic. To some extent though, I suspect that the pace of change is a result of Brixton being 'artifically ungentrified' for quite a while - ugly phrase but what I mean is it's got so much going for it as we all know who live here and yet because of prejudice/historical factors it's been ignored/discounted for a long time. Now the genie's out of the bottle and I'm not sure it can be put back.


 
Brixton was sneered at for a long time - it could not last.


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## fortyplus (Nov 25, 2012)

I think local management at InShops are well aware of the need to keep some diversity in the markets and I very much doubt that they want to force Nour out. They do, however, have a duty to their owners to extract the best rent and a certain amount of brinksmanship at rent review time is to be expected.  I'm sure Nour is in a much better position to withstand this than some of the African shops in the Granville Arcade, whose trade looks precarious at the best of times.


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## colacubes (Nov 25, 2012)

I really hope you're right.


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## ricbake (Nov 25, 2012)

From the web site of the French owners of InShop the current Landlord

http://www.geraud.co.uk/inshops.html 

*Champion of local retailing*
Inshops is a company with a difference. It is committed to maintaining healthy local independent retailing, despite the prominence of national High Street chains and out-of- town shopping.
The UK retail scene in now monopolised by national multiple retailers. The InShops mission is to redress the balance by offering consumers a different and interesting choice of goods in convenient local indoor markets or shopping halls, in town centres and other suburban centres.
....
InShops Centres Ltd is a Geraud UK Ltd subsidiary. Its headquarters are located in Liverpool where the Company’s management and administration teams are based. 
For further information, visit *www.inshopsretail.com*.


----------



## Frumious B. (Nov 25, 2012)

The irony is that the rich incomers, mostly white professionals, are attracted to the character given to Brixton by ethnic minority communities and artistic types who are being priced out. You kill what you love.  The bit I don't get is why the council are hastening this process.


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 25, 2012)

Why wouldn't they? 

middle class professionals are probably cheaper to service. maybe.


----------



## colacubes (Nov 25, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Why wouldn't they?
> 
> middle class professionals are probably cheaper to service. maybe.


 
Well quite.  Even if only in perception rather than reality.


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2012)

ricbake said:


> From the web site of the French owners of InShop the current Landlord
> 
> http://www.geraud.co.uk/inshops.html
> 
> ...


I'm interested in seeing where this definition of "local independent retailing" is going.


----------



## fortyplus (Nov 26, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> The irony is that the rich incomers, mostly white professionals, are attracted to the character given to Brixton by ethnic minority communities and artistic types who are being priced out. You kill what you love. The bit I don't get is why the council are hastening this process.


 
In the case of the arcades, I am not sure the council are doing much. InShops local management - who are in many other ways a thoroughly useless shower - do understand this point, not least because the new tenants keep telling them that it's the diversity that makes it great.

What the Council are doing beyond  the arcades is juggling capital assets in the face of central government pressure - basically, they need the money.  Evict squatters, sell off the property, balance the books.  It's the same pressure behind the plans to redevelop the Rec.  Preserving demographic mix and keeping the unique character of Brixton (if that's practical at all) come pretty low down the list of Council priorities and will always be trumped by the budget.


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## editor (Nov 26, 2012)

Yep. It's all about the lolly, while community, tradition and local character are barely registering in their list of priorities.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 26, 2012)

nipsla said:


> This is entirely true. But it's been sped up about 1000% in Brixton over the last 2 years. And is probably why so many people have a problem with it. Gentrification happens. But the pace of change (and the passion of the council to milk it) is extreme and is having an effect on everything really quickly. Rent has gone up massively in the private sector, and that will have a knock on effect in terms of LA rent. Squats and short life tenancies are suddenly being kicked out because there's a sudden realisation that the council can make money on it. People I know who've lived her for nearly 20 years are being forced out through cost. And the demographic changes irreversibly. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your point of view but it is very much happening.


 
Demographic change of this rapidity is usually a bad thing, insofar as it allows little time for the existing community and the new community to come to terms with each other.
As for what you're saying about the LA, you're absolutely right - they've gone totally breadhead. This craving for money (putatively to offset the "austerity cuts", but oddly in line with the previously-expressed desire of Lambeth Labour to "balance" the demographic of the area) is going to mean more and more estates losing their green spaces to LA/developer collaborations that supposedly benefit people in social housing, while actually doing the reverse. Social cleansing.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 26, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Why wouldn't they?
> 
> middle class professionals are probably cheaper to service. maybe.


 
That certainly seems to be the thinking of the LA, and it's most definitely the thinking encapsulated in the various "welfare" reforms, which are effectively going to start stripping inner cities of their working class populations (to be "decanted"...who knows where?), and in the "Localism" legislation.
Middle-class professionals = less demand on social services; less administration of other "health and social care" issues; more willingness and ability to pay for services.


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## quimcunx (Nov 26, 2012)

Let's hope they never get old or anything.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 26, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Let's hope they never get old or anything.


 
Oh, given that many of their representatives on the council are either in that "middle class professional" demographic, or aspire to it, I'm sure we'll see changes to suit *their* priorities. After all, *they* aren't "useless eaters", "scroungers" or "shirkers".


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## quimcunx (Nov 26, 2012)

Well I meant the mc professionals moving in but that too. 

TBF I wouldn't want to be the council just now under this govt but selling off assets seems short sighted.  you can only sell them once.   

If national policies stay as they are they will have the same problems and have to sell off more and then everything will be private and/or run by vols whether the council wanted that or not. 

I'm depressed now.  


again.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 26, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Well I meant the mc professionals moving in but that too.
> 
> TBF I wouldn't want to be the council just now under this govt but selling off assets seems short sighted. you can only sell them once.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry quimmie!


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## lefteri (Nov 26, 2012)

nipsla said:


> And the demographic changes irreversibly. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your point of view but it is very much happening.


 
Whilst I agree with much of what you say both objectively and emotionally, you are definitely mistaken in saying this - demographic changes can go in either direction in terms of social class, it may take a while but today's trendy on the up locale can be tomorrow's slum and this can happen relatively rapidly as well - brixton has been through both phases of the cycle more than once if I read the history correctly


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## Greebo (Nov 26, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> <snip>If national policies stay as they are they will have the same problems and have to sell off more and then everything will be private and/or run by vols whether the council wanted that or not.
> 
> I'm depressed now.
> 
> ...


Turn it outwards, get angry instead.


----------



## Winot (Nov 26, 2012)

lefteri said:


> Whilst I agree with much of what you say both objectively and emotionally, you are definitely mistaken in saying this - demographic changes can go in either direction in terms of social class, it may take a while but today's trendy on the up locale can be tomorrow's slum and this can happen relatively rapidly as well - brixton has been through both phases of the cycle more than once if I read the history correctly



Absolutely - after all, Atlantic 66 (purveyor of foie gras to the Front Line) went out of business some time ago.


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## Crispy (Nov 26, 2012)

It is a London-wide phenomenon. London went into population decline after WW2, resulting in the "de-gentrifying" of many central areas as wealthy people left for commuter towns. The suburbs stayed pretty much where they were. The decline was only halted in the 80s, since which many of those people have moved back into the city, reversing the previous trend. 



Unless London experiences another massive demographic shift like that after WW2, the pattern will be one of continued gentrification in all areas, with no new slums.


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## editor (Nov 26, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Unless London experiences another massive demographic shift like that after WW2, the pattern will be one of continued gentrification in all areas, with no new slums.


Come friendly bombs....


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## lefteri (Nov 26, 2012)

It's also been the policy of both central government and the mayor/GLA since the (partial) demise of thatcherism along with her deliberate destruction of the inner city to regenerate urban areas by encouraging brownfield development etc etc so it's hardly surprising to see it has actually taken effect after all that policymaking and money thrown at it


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## Brixton Blog (Nov 26, 2012)

Hi all, here's some more info on the Nour situation (and sorry for telling you off on twitter @brixtonbuzz ) http://www.brixtonblog.com/beloved-nour-cash-carry-faces-22-rent-hike/8474 >> In Shops refused to give much comment unfortunately. 
Z


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## editor (Nov 26, 2012)

Brixton Blog said:


> Hi all, here's some more info on the Nour situation (and sorry for telling you off on twitter @brixtonbuzz )
> Z


This board automatically tweets anything it thinks is a new thread which is a great way of sharing new topics. Only problem is that it often does the same when an old thread - that was started before we installed the software - is revived, hence the old news reappearing as a fresh Tweet.

Still, I never trust anything on Twitter anyway


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## Gramsci (Nov 26, 2012)

Winot said:


> , I suspect that the pace of change is a result of Brixton being 'artifically ungentrified' for quite a while -


 
What do u mean by "artificially ungentrified"?

I could argue that the present Government policies on social housing. Benefit caps, change to setting "affordable housing" at 60 to 80% of market rents, etc is "artificially", in the sense of intentional political intervention, making central London unaffordable for many.


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## leanderman (Nov 27, 2012)

What was meant, I guess, is that Brixton was cheaper than other central districts because riots and racism tended to make wealthy types stay away. They are no longer staying away.


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## Frumious B. (Nov 27, 2012)

So what it boils down to is that Spacemakers and Jay Rayner/Time Out have fucked Brixton. Unintended consequences, they meant well, but nonetheless it's fucked. For good.  Nobody's going to try to unfuck it. We're all just going to accept it, market forces, blah blah, the inevitability of change. We've all got our own shit to do, all we ever do on this board is moan and gossip anyway.

So most of us will have to move out. Where's everyone going? I've already tried Hastings, Fulham, Holloway, Harringay, Manchester, Battersea, Richmond, Selsdon, even Neasden. And they were all shit. Boring, pointless heaps of shit. I'd rather just set fire to myself in Foxtons. At least I might take some of the cunts with me.


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## editor (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> So what it boils down to is that Spacemakers and Jay Rayner/Time Out have fucked Brixton. Unintended consequences, they meant well, but nonetheless it's fucked. For good. Nobody's going to try to unfuck it. We're all just going to accept it, market forces, blah blah, the inevitability of change. We've all got our own shit to do, all we ever do on this board is moan and gossip anyway.


Well, I'm doing my tiny, tiny, tiny bit to put up some meaningful resistance, even though - like facing The Borg - it will no doubt prove futile.


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## quimcunx (Nov 27, 2012)

I have some of foxton's own wood you can use for the fire.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> ...all we ever do on this board is moan and gossip anyway.


plenty of posters here do things outside of this board... get involved! 



Frumious B. said:


> So most of us will have to move out. Where's everyone going? I've already tried Hastings, Fulham, Holloway, Harringay, Manchester, Battersea, Richmond, Selsdon, even Neasden. And they were all shit. Boring, pointless heaps of shit. I'd rather just set fire to myself in Foxtons. At least I might take some of the cunts with me.


----------



## Winot (Nov 27, 2012)

leanderman said:


> What was meant, I guess, is that Brixton was cheaper than other central districts because riots and racism tended to make wealthy types stay away. They are no longer staying away.



Exactly. 

Although I understand the point you're making @Gramsci (that there is nothing 'natural' about the free market).


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> , all we ever do on this board is moan and gossip anyway.
> 
> .


 
I dont think so:

The Barratts petition.

The Rec thread 

Nour thread


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 27, 2012)

Crispy said:


> It is a London-wide phenomenon. London went into population decline after WW2, resulting in the "de-gentrifying" of many central areas as wealthy people left for commuter towns. The suburbs stayed pretty much where they were. The decline was only halted in the 80s, since which many of those people have moved back into the city, reversing the previous trend.
> 
> View attachment 25453
> 
> Unless London experiences another massive demographic shift like that after WW2, the pattern will be one of continued gentrification in all areas, with no new slums.



Is there more data on what that represents? I'd think a fair bit of the post war decline in population would be working class people moved out to New towns rather than wealthy people but a more detailed breakdown would be interesting.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 27, 2012)

You're probably right. Ignoring my cack-handed attempt at explanation, however, and the numbers are pretty unignorable. More people living in London = more pressure on existing housing and infrastructure


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> It's also been the policy of both central government and the mayor/GLA since the (partial) demise of thatcherism along with her deliberate destruction of the inner city to regenerate urban areas by encouraging brownfield development etc etc so it's hardly surprising to see it has actually taken effect after all that policymaking and money thrown at it


 
Exactly. I heard Heseltine talking recently about the great success of Canary Wharf development. This has done nothing for the working class of East London.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)

nipsla said:


> Probably not. But then it's a rather unique problem in Brixton. The landlords are pushing rents higher and higher to force out stores who have supported the community for a long time so they can get trendier/more on message places in. And they'll have no compunction to push out some of the early adopters in the market if they think they can get more money. Now the building's listed their priority is make a shit load of money through business instead of make a shit load of money by running it down and then selling it off to be knocked down and rebuilt as flats.


 
As happened in Covent Garden. In 70s there was a campaign to save it. Now even Carlucci has had to move to Brunswick centre as he could not afford Neal street any more.


----------



## Frumious B. (Nov 27, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I dont think so:
> 
> The Barratts petition.
> 
> ...


But will these petitions and threads change anything?  It takes more than that. How was Granville Arcade saved? It wasn't done just by talking about it.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> But will these petitions and threads change anything? It takes more than that. How was Granville Arcade saved? It wasn't done just by talking about it.


The efforts to save it were _started_ by talking about it.


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## Winot (Nov 27, 2012)

@Gramsci - what do you think should be done to stop rent rises in Brixton Market?


----------



## Frumious B. (Nov 27, 2012)

editor said:


> The efforts to save it were _started_ by talking about it.


But then what? What were the tactics?

Maybe it's irrelevant. It's not as if you can stop Nour's rent going up by getting Nour's listed. I suppose there's just no way to control a landlord who just points to market forces and comparable rents etc.


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## editor (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> But then what? What were the tactics?
> 
> Maybe it's irrelevant. It's not as if you can stop Nour's rent going up by getting Nour's listed. I suppose there's just no way to control a landlord who just points to market forces and comparable rents etc.


The tactics grew out of people talking about it and making others aware of the issues and encouraging them to get involved and add anything they could to the fight. Every campaign has to start somewhere and that's always by _talking and publicising_.


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## Frumious B. (Nov 27, 2012)

Yes, I get that. But there don't seem to be any tactics arising from these discussions. We're a bit short of ideas. No-one has a plan to save Nour. And the plan to save the Rec amounts to nothing more than writing to councillors.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> And the plan to save the Rec amounts to nothing more than writing to councillors.


And the public meetings, and the publicity that has led to Lambeth having to defend its thinking and even tweeting me to say that they categorically have no plans to demolish the Rec. I'd say that's a start.


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## gaijingirl (Nov 27, 2012)

and the motions that have been raised at council meetings, and the leaflets produced to be distributed.  Getting the word out so people know, gathering information, informing interested parties.  All ready for further action down the line.


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## Frumious B. (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't share your confidence that all this will save the Rec. Prentice will have her way. In France there'd be demos and sit-ins and lock-ins. Righteous anger would be channelled into effective action. But we are too supine and self-absorbed for any of that. The 'me generation' will just tweet about it.


----------



## Manter (Nov 27, 2012)

editor said:


> And the public meetings, and the publicity that has led to Lambeth having to defend its thinking and even tweeting me to say that they categorically have no plans to demolish the Rec. I'd say that's a start.


and the 20th Century society getting involved


----------



## Manter (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> I don't share your confidence that all this will save the Rec. Prentice will have her way. In France there'd be demos and sit-ins and lock-ins. Righteous anger would be channelled into effective action. But we are too supine and self-absorbed for any of that. The 'me generation' will just tweet about it.


but the french are loopy.  locking yourself in a building because someone refused to confirm they weren't talking about it is completely disproportionate


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> I don't share your confidence that all this will save the Rec. Prentice will have her way. In France there'd be demos and sit-ins and lock-ins. Righteous anger would be channelled into effective action. But we are too supine and self-absorbed for any of that. The 'me generation' will just tweet about it.


 
actually I think that eventually the Rec will go - you're probably right. This isn't the first time there's been this threat and last time the campaigning saved it. I hope this time it will too. I would like to see us hang on to it for as long as we can. However, I don't think that it's entirely true that action won't/doesn't get taken further. It does happen, but to do something like that at this stage would be ridiculous and just discredit the whole campaign imo.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2012)

For what's it worth, here's that tweet.



https://twitter.com/lambeth_council/status/271620205615140865


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## Crispy (Nov 27, 2012)

Very carefully worded, that.


----------



## Winot (Nov 27, 2012)

I fear that the 'plan' which doesn't at present exist will materialise fairly quickly at some point in the future.  Hopefully there will be enough time after this happens to prevent its being effected.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 27, 2012)

That tweet promises nothing.


----------



## Frumious B. (Nov 27, 2012)

editor said:


> For what's it worth, here's that tweet.
> 
> View attachment 25459
> 
> https://twitter.com/lambeth_council/status/271620205615140865


 
Come on, you know that's bullshit, don't you?   At all the upcoming consultations and meetings they won't say "we are never, ever going to sell the Rec." What they will say is that because the borough is broke the Rec has to go and that the smaller, cheaper replacement will be 'better'.  Saying that 'we want better leisure facilities in Brixton' is mendacious nonsense. The Rec is already so good that you can't really improve on it. People from other areas would be gobsmacked to find out how many sports it caters for. Saying 'we want something better' is just a way of planting the idea that the Rec is rubbish. But there's nothing wrong with it, except that the value of the site it's on means that failing to knock it down is a missed opportunity to make a few million.


----------



## gaijingirl (Nov 27, 2012)

Winot said:


> I fear that the 'plan' which doesn't at present exist will materialise fairly quickly at some point in the future.  Hopefully there will be enough time after this happens to prevent its being effected.



if there isn't already some deal with tesco or whoever already on the back burner i would be very surprised.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Come on, you know that's bullshit, don't you?


That's why I was careful to say, "For what's it worth...."


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> But will these petitions and threads change anything? It takes more than that. How was Granville Arcade saved? It wasn't done just by talking about it.


 
Ur starting to annoy me.

If u think these threads do not change anything do not post up here.

If you have better ideas go off and show me how its done.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)

Winot said:


> @Gramsci - what do you think should be done to stop rent rises in Brixton Market?


 
Bring back rent controls.

Bring in protection for shop keepers. Shopkeepers should be able to get leases that are long enough to be able plan there business.


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## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> I don't share your confidence that all this will save the Rec. Prentice will have her way. In France there'd be demos and sit-ins and lock-ins. Righteous anger would be channelled into effective action. But we are too supine and self-absorbed for any of that. The 'me generation' will just tweet about it.


 
Who is "we". I assume you are using the royal "we" and talking about yourself.

"me generation" if they are so supine and self interested they would not tweet about it. Use a bit of logic.


----------



## twistedAM (Nov 27, 2012)

Manter said:


> but the french are loopy. locking yourself in a building because someone refused to confirm they weren't talking about it is completely disproportionate


 
Loopy? That's what we did when I was a student until some bright spark realised that a tube of superglue saved a lot of time.


----------



## Winot (Nov 27, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Bring in protection for shop keepers. Shopkeepers should be able to get leases that are long enough to be able plan there business.


 
I don't disagree with that necessarily, but does anyone know how long Nour has been there?  They could have had a decent length lease (e.g. 10 years) at reasonable rent and just had the bad luck that it has come up for review at the time it has.

Also, my understanding is that short-term leases are attractive to some shop keepers because it allows them to test the water and not overcommit.

Not sure what rent controls you have in mind - would landlords be contrained in the % rises they could demand?


----------



## Frumious B. (Nov 27, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Ur starting to annoy me.
> 
> If u think these threads do not change anything do not post up here.
> 
> If you have better ideas go off and show me how its done.


 
Sorry, I don't mean to be annoying. I'm just feeling fatalistic. Doomed. It's going to be hard to save the Rec. I will take your advice and try to think of something I can do.


----------



## lefteri (Nov 27, 2012)

It seems very strange to me that people are holding the success of the covered markets responsible for a supposed irreversible gentrification of brixton when those market buildings as far as I understand were saved by a grassroots campaign to list them & hence stop them being developed as more commercial retail units - is it a case of be careful what you wish for?


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> It seems very strange to me that people are holding the success of the covered markets responsible for a supposed irreversible gentrification of brixton when those market buildings as far as I understand were saved by a grassroots campaign to list them & hence stop them being developed as more commercial retail units - is it a case of be careful what you wish for?


Did you see what was being proposed?


----------



## Crispy (Nov 27, 2012)

Gentrification was coming anyway. It has been for longer than these boards have been around. But the trendification of the market has certainly helped accelerate it.

EDIT: The original plan to redevelop Brixton Village was thwarted when they were listed in 2009: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/brixton-market-redevelopment.199951/page-3#post-7100396 (lots of detail in that thread)

EDITEDIT: And then later that year, the Spacemakers scheme of low-rent short leases for "pop-up" units was started: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/brixton-village-granville-arcade-indoor-market-brixton.237936/

The rest is history.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> It seems very strange to me that people are holding the success of the covered markets responsible for a supposed irreversible gentrification of brixton when those market buildings as far as I understand were saved by a grassroots campaign to list them & hence stop them being developed as more commercial retail units - is it a case of be careful what you wish for?


Well, no, it's more complicated than that. Long, long before any listing was even mooted lots of really good shops in Granvile Arcade went because of big rent rises. The toy shop and the pet shop spring to mind.


----------



## twistedAM (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> It seems very strange to me that people are holding the success of the covered markets responsible for a supposed irreversible gentrification of brixton when those market buildings as far as I understand were saved by a grassroots campaign to list them & hence stop them being developed as more commercial retail units - is it a case of be careful what you wish for?


 
I'll have a flat white to go please


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> But will these petitions and threads change anything? It takes more than that. How was Granville Arcade saved? It wasn't done just by talking about it.





Frumious B. said:


> Yes, I get that. But there don't seem to be any tactics arising from these discussions. We're a bit short of ideas. No-one has a plan to save Nour. And the plan to save the Rec amounts to nothing more than writing to councillors.


I can see you're frustrated by all this - I am too. But experience shows these battles can be won, though it will not happen overnight. These boards have always been helpful in terms of publicising issues and getting people involved, but the real action happens offline in public meetings, via organisations like residents associations, local charities, the Brixton Society or whatever, people turning up to council meetings and making a fuss, storming the town hall, picketing the police station. It can work if people get off their arses and do something (though 'keyboard warriors' can help too.)

As for Nour, they're already working on fighting their rent rise.

And as for the Rec, it's early stages - writing to councillors is part of the strategy at the moment (which has already had an effect) and tactics will change if/when Lambeth publishes formal documents relating to the Rec early next year. Come along to the meeting on 10 December and find out more...


----------



## lefteri (Nov 27, 2012)

editor said:


> Did you see what was being proposed?


No - do you have a link handy?  I assume from reading about it that it was commercial development that involved demolition of the existing buildings to make way for more intensive retail use - is that incorrect?


----------



## colacubes (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> No - do you have a link handy? I assume from reading about it that it was commercial development that involved demolition of the existing buildings to make way for more intensive retail use - is that incorrect?


 
Yes.  It was commercial on the bottom, with a build up of several more floors for "luxury apartments" with a private roof garden on top for residents.


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## lefteri (Nov 27, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Gentrification was coming anyway. It has been for longer than these boards have been around. But the trendification of the market has certainly helped accelerate it.


 
I guess my point is that what was coming was gentrification and what we got was trendification followed inexorably by gentrification - I'm sure to many residents that means brixton was caught between scylla and charybdes


----------



## lefteri (Nov 27, 2012)

nipsla said:


> Yes. It was commercial on the bottom, with a build up of several more floors for "luxury apartments" with a private roof garden on top for residents.


so more like office space at ground floor level rather than shops?


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> No - do you have a link handy? I assume from reading about it that it was commercial development that involved demolition of the existing buildings to make way for more intensive retail use - is that incorrect?


They were going to stick a residential block in the middle and then redevelop the indoor market into a hideous bland corporate shopping mini-mall. It was awful.


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## TruXta (Nov 27, 2012)

nipsla said:


> Yes. It was commercial on the bottom, with a build up of several more floors for "luxury apartments" with a private roof garden on top for residents.


Fucking hell. I'll take all the hipsters we can get over that.


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## Crispy (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> No - do you have a link handy? I assume from reading about it that it was commercial development that involved demolition of the existing buildings to make way for more intensive retail use - is that incorrect?


That's right. And 4-5 stories of residential on top.


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## lefteri (Nov 27, 2012)

Crispy said:


> That's right. And 4-5 stories of residential on top.


 
well I suppose you could look at the glass half full then and say imagine all those residents of the new development in central brixton swanning about and be thankful the trendy new market tenancies mostly attract 'tourists' from outside brixton and encourage hip types to take up residence nearby but scattered amongst the existing populace


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## editor (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> well I suppose you could look at the glass half full then and say imagine all those residents of the new development in central brixton swanning about and be thankful the trendy new market tenancies mostly attract 'tourists' from outside brixton and encourage hip types to take up residence nearby but scattered amongst the existing populace


They'll all be moving into Brixton Square now. And the old Rushcroft/Clifton squats.


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## Manter (Nov 27, 2012)

twistedAM said:


> I'll have a flat white to go please


piccolo.  Flat white is so passé sweetie


----------



## Frumious B. (Nov 27, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I can see you're frustrated by all this - I am too. But experience shows these battles can be won, though it will not happen overnight. These boards have always been helpful in terms of publicising issues and getting people involved, but the real action happens offline in public meetings, via organisations like residents associations, local charities, the Brixton Society or whatever, people turning up to council meetings and making a fuss, storming the town hall, picketing the police station. It can work if people get off their arses and do something (though 'keyboard warriors' can help too.)
> 
> As for Nour, they're already working on fighting their rent rise.
> 
> And as for the Rec, it's early stages - writing to councillors is part of the strategy at the moment (which has already had an effect) and tactics will change if/when Lambeth publishes formal documents relating to the Rec early next year. Come along to the meeting on 10 December and find out more...


 
OK, we're in it for the long haul. Actually I did go to the last BRUG meeting, but it seemed to me that all the work was being done by the three stalwarts at the table, and everyone else was just sitting there or letting off steam.

Edit: honourable mention for the guy who wanted to start a shooting club, but isn't that a bit....deluded?


----------



## twistedAM (Nov 27, 2012)

Manter said:


> piccolo. Flat white is so passé sweetie


 
I had to google that. It's a  machiatto. Give it it's proper name rather than some Australian nonsense...though I do see what you did there


----------



## lefteri (Nov 27, 2012)

editor said:


> They'll all be moving into Brixton Square now. And the old Rushcroft/Clifton squats.


 
true that - but I guess 'they' have been encroaching some time - a pincer movement from clapham, herne hill and the posher parts of camberwell/denmark hill


----------



## Manter (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Edit: honourable mention for the guy who wanted to start a shooting club, but isn't that a bit....deluded?


I thought it was incredibly funny.  But also possibly a good idea as if they could shoot straight, there would be fewer accidents involving passersby, surely?!


----------



## Crispy (Nov 27, 2012)

There is a line of argument that says that proper instruction in the use and handling of guns leads to less misuse of them.


----------



## Frumious B. (Nov 27, 2012)

It may be a good idea in principle. There are plenty of other shooting clubs which don't seem to be linked to gun crime. But I just can't imagine Brixton police tolerating it. I'm sure they'll find a way to kill it at birth.


----------



## Manter (Nov 27, 2012)

Crispy said:


> There is a line of argument that says that proper instruction in the use and handling of guns leads to less misuse of them.


much more eloquent way of making the point


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> OK, we're in it for the long haul. Actually I did go to the last BRUG meeting, but it seemed to me that all the work was being done by the three stalwarts at the table, and everyone else was just sitting there or letting off steam.
> 
> Edit: honourable mention for the guy who wanted to start a shooting club, but isn't that a bit....deluded?


Ah didn't realise you were there. Will say hello next time. The BRUG committee (the three at the table) are knowledgable, but I didn't think the meeting was chaired in a particularly efficient way.

The guy who wanted to start the shooting club - well, fairplay to him. It's his pet project perhaps. It's perhaps a rather minor concern at this stage, but the more general point (that we should use a facility which has been built/provided) is a good one. Could also possibly be used for archery.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 27, 2012)

There's gun clubs and gun shops all over the country.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> Whilst I agree with much of what you say both objectively and emotionally, you are definitely mistaken in saying this - demographic changes can go in either direction in terms of social class, it may take a while but today's trendy on the up locale can be tomorrow's slum and this can happen relatively rapidly as well - brixton has been through both phases of the cycle more than once if I read the history correctly


 
Relative rapidity seems to be 20-30 years, in previous "gentrifications" in southwest London from beginnings to complete demographic shift, whereas in Brixton's case it's arguably been 10-15 years max.


----------



## Winot (Nov 27, 2012)

Crispy said:


> There is a line of argument that says that proper instruction in the use and handling of guns leads to less misuse of them.



We aim to please etc.


----------



## lefteri (Nov 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Relative rapidity seems to be 20-30 years, in previous "gentrifications" in southwest London from beginnings to complete demographic shift, whereas in Brixton's case it's arguably been 10-15 years max.


 
what's a 'complete demographic shift' though? Surely it's all relative and doesn't have a neat start and end point?


----------



## Crispy (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> what's a 'complete demographic shift' though? Surely it's all relative and doesn't have a neat start and end point?


I'm sure it could be expressed in terms of median wage and standard distributions.
Where did I put my kabbes...


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 27, 2012)

*pats pockets* 

I haven't got him.


----------



## lefteri (Nov 27, 2012)

sure but when do you draw the start and end conditions, surely the demographic of an area is constantly changing, it doesn't start off as one demographic and end up as another and just stay there?


----------



## fortyplus (Nov 27, 2012)

I went to that Wishbone place today. It was shite. It's basically a bar, the chicken is an afterthought. 
The chicken thighs come off the bone, cut into pieces like nuggets. All the succulence of the thigh gone.  Couldn't taste the chicken for the far-too-thick coating.   Given the top quality chips available at Honest and Bukowski you'd have thought they'd have made an effort there, but no, frozen fries at two and a half quid a portion.  Anyway why is all this talk on this thread? I walked past Nour to get to Wishbone.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> OK, we're in it for the long haul. Actually I did go to the last BRUG meeting, but it seemed to me that all the work was being done by the three stalwarts at the table, and everyone else was just sitting there or letting off steam.
> 
> Edit: honourable mention for the guy who wanted to start a shooting club, but isn't that a bit....deluded?


 
That is how all campaigns work. I have no problem with a few leaders. Around them are others who do stuff on and off in the background (me) and then those who let of steam. Who are needed as well. Everyone imo has something to offer. The "leaders" cant lead without the support of the rest. 

Also Im heartened that the "leaders" are sane and sensible and do not do anything without listening to the rest who turn up. At the meeting they went out of there way to ask people there opinions. Helps that one of the "leaders" is retired trade unionist. Who knows how to work with groups of people and be accountable in a democratic way. 

Numbers are important. There are also those who cant get to all the meetings but have bombarded Cllrs with emails. Ive talked to people in the pool who have told me later they have emailed Cllrs.

I also think the internet has its place. Its known that a lot of people like Cllrs lurk here. Info can be distributed in a way that was not possible before. A lot of people cant make meetings but can use internet to dig up info and publicise it. 

Personally I dont have a problem with the shooting club. But yes its controversial in Brixton.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The guy who wanted to start the shooting club - well, fairplay to him. It's his pet project perhaps. It's perhaps a rather minor concern at this stage, but the more general point (that we should use a facility which has been built/provided) is a good one. Could also possibly be used for archery.


 
Archery? I can see the local hoodies loving that.   Brixton the new centre of Archery related crime.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> what's a 'complete demographic shift' though? Surely it's all relative and doesn't have a neat start and end point?


 
From "predominantly working class" to "predominantly middle class" if you exclude the estates.
And no, of course it doesn't have a "neat start and end point" and "complete demographic shift" is metaphorical rather than absolutely literal, but the high volume of change is there, nonetheless.


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 27, 2012)

Was it a longbow or a crossbow they hit Alfie the town cryer in the arse with?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 27, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Archery? I can see the local hoodies loving that.  Brixton the new centre of Archery related crime.


 
The Tale of Robbin' Hoodies.

(gets coat)


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> what's a 'complete demographic shift' though? Surely it's all relative and doesn't have a neat start and end point?


 
Central London is becoming un affordable which is what gentrification is about. Along with changes to social housing this will mean that people are pushed to edges. So London will become like Paris. Cant see how London will work. All those cleaners etc needed to keep London going will have to live further out. But travel costs in UK are very high. So its a double bind.


----------



## happyshopper (Nov 27, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> ... I didn't think the meeting was chaired in a particularly efficient way ...


 
I was there and I don't think that efficiency is the right criterion to apply. Participation is much more important and the Chair ensured, as far as was practicable, that everyone who was there got a chance to have their say - although I have to admit that she is an old (trade union) colleague of mine.

The point about the shooting gallery is that it's worth putting more effort into exploring the unrealised potential of the building. It's simply far far better than any conceivable replacement.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 27, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Was it a longbow or a crossbow they hit Alfie the town cryer in the arse with?


 
Longbow I hope. Like at Agincourt. Not those effete crossbows the French use. What made Britain great the sturdy yeoman and his Longbow.


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 27, 2012)

I had a go at a longbow the other week. I was rubbish.


----------



## Winot (Nov 27, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I had a go at a longbow the other week. I was rubbish.



You shouldn't have started with a strongbow.


----------



## lefteri (Nov 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> From "predominantly working class" to "predominantly middle class" if you exclude the estates.


 
hmm, sounds a bit woolly to me, why exclude estates?  What about other forms of social housing like housing association owned stock?  Large estates can act as a bulwark against gentrification and it's quite possible that this will prove to be at least partially the case


----------



## Crispy (Nov 27, 2012)

lefteri said:


> Large estates can act as a bulwark against gentrification


Say that to the Heygate


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 27, 2012)

Winot said:


> You shouldn't have started with a strongbow.


 
I did not have that as an excuse.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 27, 2012)

Winot said:


> You shouldn't have started with a strongbow.


*insert cider pun here*


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Nov 27, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Archery? I can see the local hoodies loving that.  Brixton the new centre of Archery related crime.


Well, Alfie Howard, Town Crier, late of this Parish, was shot in the head with a crossbow bolt while he was standing by the flower stall outside Brixton Tube. He was standing right by a Mum with a toddler in a pushchair. As I said to him at the time, "Thank God it hit you Alfie, and not the kid,  you've always had a good hard head."


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 28, 2012)

lefteri said:


> hmm, sounds a bit woolly to me, why exclude estates?  What about other forms of social housing like housing association owned stock?  Large estates can act as a bulwark against gentrification and it's quite possible that this will prove to be at least partially the case


I exclude estates because they're local authority social housing, and while they might be part privately owned, they're still relatively socially homogeneous. As for estates being bulwarks, many local authorities,  including Lambeth,  are now looking to develop housing for sale on the green spaces on estates. They've already done so at Myatts Fields, and are planning to do so at Cressingham Gardens and others. We're a pretty porous bulwark.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 28, 2012)

Crispy said:


> *insert cider pun here*


Strongbow isn't cider, it's fizzy alcoholic appleade, you chucklehead!


----------



## lefteri (Nov 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I exclude estates because they're local authority social housing, and while they might be part privately owned, they're still relatively socially homogeneous. As for estates being bulwarks, many local authorities, including Lambeth, are now looking to develop housing for sale on the green spaces on estates. They've already done so at Myatts Fields, and are planning to do so at Cressingham Gardens and others. We're a pretty porous bulwark.


 
You're right, social housing is constantly under threat - people tend to look at a 60s or 70s built housing estate and assume that it's all or majority council housing but this is very often not the case - I'm sure a majority of people would underestimate the proportion of socially rented accommodation within a housing estate - mind you they might also underestimate the proportion in a row of georgian of victorian terraced houses, a significant number of which might be housing association owned

the use of open spaces within estates as development site for private housing is abominable.  Le Corbusier would be spinning in his grave


----------



## Crispy (Nov 28, 2012)

I live on a street of about fifty 60s council houses. They are all privately owned with not a single council tenant left.


----------



## editor (Nov 28, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I live on a street of about fifty 60s council houses. They are all owner occupied with not a single council tenant left.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 28, 2012)

I expect quite a few of them are still housing the original families or their descendents, mind.


----------



## editor (Nov 28, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I expect quite a few of them are still housing the original families or their descendents, mind.


How do you know they're all owner occupied? Surely loads of them will be rented out, no?

Selling off council housing was one of the biggest government crimes of the last 50 years.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 28, 2012)

editor said:


> How do you know they're all owner occupied?


The lawyer said so during the purchase. You're right, some of them will be rented; I used the wrong term. I'll edit.

And the chances are that some of them will be rented to people on HB, at a vastly higher rate than they would be costing the council if the property was still council-owned


----------



## editor (Nov 28, 2012)

Crispy said:


> The lawyer said so during the purchase. You're right, some of them will be rented; I used the wrong term. I'll edit.
> 
> And the chances are that some of them will be rented to people on HB, at a vastly higher rate than they would be costing the council if the property was still council-owned


That's the thing I always thought was utterly insane when I was on the dole. I could only get a shit flat with a rip off rent, yet the DHSS would pay it, effectively rewarding the landlord for ripping me off.


----------



## fortyplus (Nov 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Selling off council housing was one of the biggest government crimes of the last 50 years.


It was not using the money to build more social housing that was the real crime.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 28, 2012)

editor said:


> Selling off council housing was one of the biggest government crimes of the last 50 years.





fortyplus said:


> It was not using the money to build more social housing that was the real crime.


In my opinion - both!


----------



## leanderman (Nov 28, 2012)

council tenant in our street is subletting a couple of rooms in the far too big house and piling up the cash to right-to-buy it


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 28, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> It was not using the money to build more social housing that was the real crime.


 
Or rather, it was the Tories legislating so that funds from RtB couldn't be used to build more social housing that was the real crime.  Blame deserves to be correctly-allocated.


----------



## fortyplus (Nov 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Or rather, it was the Tories legislating so that funds from RtB couldn't be used to build more social housing that was the real crime. Blame deserves to be correctly-allocated.


Yes. But I think that the crimes being committed by the present shower eclipse even those. Without a doubt the worst government I have ever had the misfortune to live under. Thatcher had principles, even if I disagreed with them; this lot are just singlemindedly venal for themselves and their mates.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 28, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> Yes. But I think that the crimes being committed by the present shower eclipse even those. Without a doubt the worst government I have ever had the misfortune to live under. Thatcher had principles, even if I disagreed with them; this lot are just singlemindedly venal for themselves and their mates.


 
Yep, without even the paternalism that made their late 19th/early 20th-century forebears bearable, most of them, and those who do still have an instinct for paternalism, like Iain Duncan Smith, fixate on their "solutions" to social problems, rather than addressing the problems themselves.


----------



## leanderman (Nov 28, 2012)

last two comments bang on.


----------



## lefteri (Nov 29, 2012)

leanderman said:


> council tenant in our street is subletting a couple of rooms in the far too big house and piling up the cash to right-to-buy it


 
this is more common than anyone probably likes to talk about - the number of people subletting socially rented property and fucking off to india for the winter must be quite high if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 29, 2012)

if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by 50% of benefit claimants are immigrant cancer causing cheats living in 18 roomed Kensington mansions with their 12 children and a pony.


----------



## Winot (Nov 29, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by 50% of benefit claimants are immigrant cancer causing cheats living in 18 roomed Kensington mansions with their 12 children and a pony.



You are Paul Dacre and I claim my £5.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Nov 29, 2012)

lefteri said:


> this is more common than anyone probably likes to talk about - the number of people subletting socially rented property and fucking off to india for the winter must be quite high if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by


Well, if he's living there and subletting spare rooms to lodgers, that's not illegal unless he's not informed the landlord and/or is claiming benefits.


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 29, 2012)

Winot said:


> You are Paul Dacre and I claim my £5.


 
I thought everyone knew.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Nov 29, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by 50% of benefit claimants are immigrant cancer causing cheats living in 18 roomed Kensington mansions with their 12 children and a pony.


...you forgot the bit about poaching and eating protected wildlife.


----------



## leanderman (Nov 29, 2012)

I get that it's a Dacre thing. But, still, it is happening. And it is a little annoying


----------



## leanderman (Nov 29, 2012)

Like the landlords in this street that turn up monthly for their rent in cash?


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 29, 2012)

Why?  Do you think people should have to give up their homes if they want to go away for more than a fortnight in Marbella?


----------



## twistedAM (Nov 29, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by 50% of benefit claimants are immigrant cancer causing cheats living in 18 roomed Kensington mansions with their 12 children and a pony.


 
Actually when i read the post by @lefteri I thought they was talking about people traveling the world not people from the Indian subcontinent . That's who most of the subletting cunts I knew were like.
If you want to trade the world on a tenant's INFLATED rent from which you;re making a healthy profit, then give up the house to someone who really needs it.


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 29, 2012)

So did I.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 29, 2012)

leanderman said:


> I get that it's a Dacre thing. But, still, it is happening. And it is a little annoying


More annoying than the housing crisis and the destruction of the welfare state?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 29, 2012)

Crispy said:


> There is a line of argument that says that proper instruction in the use and handling of guns leads to less misuse of them.


 
attrib. pbman 2002


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 29, 2012)

lefteri said:


> this is more common than anyone probably likes to talk about - the number of people subletting socially rented property and fucking off to india for the winter must be quite high if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by


 
Not aware of *any* of my neighbours who do so, and while I'm aware it does go on, when I've heard about it, it's always been FOAF-tales.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 29, 2012)

Winot said:


> You are Paul Dacre and I claim my £5.


 
She can't be. She didn't cunt or double-cunt you!


----------



## Crispy (Nov 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not aware of *any* of my neighbours who do so, and while I'm aware it does go on, when I've heard about it, it's always been FOAF-tales.


I know of one urbanite who was a sub-tenant in just such an arrangement.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 29, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> attrib. pbman 2002


 
Except his grammar and spelling wouldn't have been so tidy.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 29, 2012)

i've been the tenant of a socially housed landlord who let the place out and lived in his own house.  he wasn't happy when i claimed hb and inadvertantly alerted the man.  wonder if anything happened with that, i got asked to leave before i found out.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> i've been the tenant of a socially housed landlord who let the place out and lived in his own house. he wasn't happy when i claimed hb and inadvertantly alerted the man. wonder if anything happened with that, i got asked to leave before i found out.


I'm crying real tears for the landlord.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 29, 2012)

me too.  man was a massive bellend.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Nov 29, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> i've been the tenant of a socially housed landlord who let the place out and lived in his own house. he wasn't happy when i claimed hb and inadvertantly alerted the man. wonder if anything happened with that, i got asked to leave before i found out.


 
Same has happened to me, except the landlord lived somewhere else. I had no idea what was going on until I made a claim for hb & had it refused as Lambeth were already paying hb to my landlord (who was charging me a market rent of at least twice that) for the same property.

So it does happen, but I have no idea how prevalent it is. And in certain circumstances - e.g. taking a lodger, limited time periods if the tenant has to move for work - it's perfectly legal to sublet with permission from the social housing landlord.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2012)

Ms Ordinary said:


> Same has happened to me, except the landlord lived somewhere else. I had no idea what was going on until I made a claim for hb & had it refused as Lambeth were already paying hb to my landlord (who was charging me a market rent of at least twice that) for the same property.
> 
> So it does happen, but I have no idea how prevalent it is. And in certain circumstances - e.g. taking a lodger, limited time periods if the tenant has to move for work - it's perfectly legal to sublet with permission from the social housing landlord.


It's usually perfectly OK to sublet - _if you're living there_ or it's still your main place of residence.


----------



## leanderman (Nov 29, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> More annoying than the housing crisis and the destruction of the welfare state?


 
No


----------



## lefteri (Nov 29, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by 50% of benefit claimants are immigrant cancer causing cheats living in 18 roomed Kensington mansions with their 12 children and a pony.


that's only anecdotal evidence if you happen to fraternise with a load of journalists


----------



## lefteri (Nov 29, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Why? Do you think people should have to give up their homes if they want to go away for more than a fortnight in Marbella?


nothing to stop you going away for as long as you can afford - if however you're funding it on the difference between the exorbitant rent you're charging and the rent you're paying the council that's another matter


----------



## Mation (Nov 30, 2012)

Bollocks. Just saw this thread. That's my favourite shop, on par with Yasar Halim.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 30, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> More annoying than the housing crisis and the destruction of the welfare state?





leanderman said:


> No


Sorry, I wasn't having a go at you....it was more a comment on how these 'friend of a friend subletting" stories get extrapolated (especially by the right wing press like the Daily Fail) into "oh, _everyone's_ doing it". You get this divide and rule-style public debate when the real problem is not a small amount of subletting but a massive shortage of housing.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 30, 2012)

The Brixton Blog / Bugle thing has this (Nour, not subletting) as their front page article today.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Sorry, I wasn't having a go at you....it was more a comment on how these 'friend of a friend subletting" stories get extrapolated (especially by the right wing press like the Daily Fail) into "oh, _everyone's_ doing it". You get this divide and rule-style public debate when the real problem is not a small amount of subletting but a massive shortage of housing.


 
Absolutely.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 30, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ...you forgot the bit about poaching and eating protected wildlife.


 
That would be local Swans in parks near Kensington. As Daily Mail pointed out still a hanging offence to kill the Queens Swans.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 30, 2012)

To attempt to try to get the thread back on topic, it might be worth mentioning an idea which came up at one of the Brixton Rec meetings. It was suggested that traders in the market (retailers who have shops, rather than stalls, i.e. like Nour) could benefit from starting their own trade association, like the stallholders have (Brixton Market Traders' Federation www.brixtonmarket.net ). BMTF have had some successes by working together, such as reinvigorating the station road market. If the shop retailers got together they might wield more power with a collective voice, and be better able to resist rent rises etc.


----------



## leanderman (Nov 30, 2012)

What I like about Nour is the quick service you get from the guys outside the Market Row entrance.


----------



## uk benzo (Nov 30, 2012)

I sincerely hope that all these new places that have opened up in the market will pull together to support Nour.


----------



## Winot (Dec 1, 2012)

Winot said:


> I don't disagree with that necessarily, but does anyone know how long Nour has been there?  They could have had a decent length lease (e.g. 10 years) at reasonable rent and just had the bad luck that it has come up for review at the time it has.
> 
> Also, my understanding is that short-term leases are attractive to some shop keepers because it allows them to test the water and not overcommit.
> 
> Not sure what rent controls you have in mind - would landlords be contrained in the % rises they could demand?



According to Brixton Bugle, Nour is indeed coming to the end of a ten year lease. And the rent rise being implemented is 22%.

According to this site, total inflation over the last 10 years is 30%:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tion-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html

In that context, is a 22% rent rise unreasonable? Or am I missing something?

EDIT - I got this wrong - 10 year lease was up last year, so 22% is increase on last year, which is huge. Facepalm at me.


----------



## madolesance (Dec 1, 2012)

Winot said:


> According to Brixton Bugle, Nour is indeed coming to the end of a ten year lease. And the rent rise being implemented is 22%.
> 
> According to this site, total inflation over the last 10 years is 30%:
> 
> ...


 
Would be a shame if Noir closed but I do believe people have been missing the entire situation/ rent freezes over the past years.


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 1, 2012)

Winot said:


> According to Brixton Bugle, Nour is indeed coming to the end of a ten year lease. And the rent rise being implemented is 22%.
> 
> According to this site, total inflation over the last 10 years is 30%:
> 
> ...


 
I don't think it's the first rent rise in 10 years.  This thread was started last year about a proposed rent hike last year, I presume.


----------



## Winot (Dec 1, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I don't think it's the first rent rise in 10 years.  This thread was started last year about a proposed rent hike last year, I presume.



We need more facts I agree.  Would be unusual to have a rent review a year before term though I think (@Rushy ?). Maybe that was about service charges.


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 1, 2012)

I'd be very surprised if a landlord didn't build rent reviews into a 10 year lease.


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## Winot (Dec 1, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I'd be very surprised if a landlord didn't build rent reviews into a 10 year lease.



Have just read full story - I got it wrong. 10 year lease was up LAST year so 22% is after only a year. My mistake - have edited post.


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## Greebo (Dec 1, 2012)

Winot said:


> <snip>22% is after only a year. My mistake - have edited post.


Bloody hell!


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 1, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I don't think it's the first rent rise in 10 years. This thread was started last year about a proposed rent hike last year, I presume.


Yep....rent rise after 10 years was in April 2011. The next rent rise will come into effect in May 2013 iirc.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 1, 2012)

uk benzo said:


> I sincerely hope that all these new places that have opened up in the market will pull together to support Nour.


Me too. But I won't be holding my breath. 

Having said that, I understand that some of the early businesses who first came into the arcade in 2009/2010 have already been hit with large rent rises...


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## ricbake (Dec 2, 2012)

Snip


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## RaverDrew (Dec 3, 2012)

I heard Nour had the bailiffs round on Friday morning demanding money


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 4, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I heard Nour had the bailiffs round on Friday morning demanding money


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## TruXta (Dec 4, 2012)

22% increase in a year? That's fucking outrageous.


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## uk benzo (Dec 4, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I heard Nour had the bailiffs round on Friday morning demanding money


 
That's fucking horrible.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 4, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> I heard Nour had the bailiffs round on Friday morning demanding money


Is that from a decent source?

I was thinking about this some more today when I was in Nour. Whilst I don't know anything at all about their financial situation, I was thinking it was unlikely they would be in money trouble at this stage. They must have a very high turnover of cash/takings. They have new stock in every day. They employ at least 10 or 15 people, maybe more (since many appear to be part-time.) The rent rise hasn't kicked in yet (May 2013)....so why would the bailiffs be there? The only reason I can think of is perhaps unpaid back-dated rent from the last rent rise.....?

Anyway, speculation aside, there was a nice exchange between customers and staff when I was in there earlier. Me and one of the cashiers were gently taking the piss out of this woman who kept asking for more and more carrier bags. Her car was parked a long way away in the Tesco car park. It turned out she doesn't live in Brixton anymore but she still makes a special journey to come to Nour because of the good value. SHe had lots of shopping. Hassan the manager/owner (?) remembered her and was asking where his Christmas present was  Good vibes all round.

To me, this is typical of Nour, and, in fact, typical many of the independent businesses in Brixton. Something we need to protect.


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## colacubes (Dec 4, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> *Is that from a decent source?*
> 
> I was thinking about this some more today when I was in Nour. Whilst I don't know anything at all about their financial situation, I was thinking it was unlikely they would be in money trouble at this stage. They have new stock in every day. They employ at least 10 or 15 people, maybe more (since many appear to be part-time.) The rent rise hasn't kicked in yet (May 2013)....so why would the bailiffs be there? The only reason I can think of is perhaps unpaid back-dated rent from the last rent rise.....?
> 
> ...


 
It's from their own twitter feed:

*Nour Cash & Carry* ‏@*NourCashCarry*
@*Brixtonite* We had a visit from the bailiffs on Friday morning, no warning, no letters, nothing, just demanding more money.Faceless bullies.


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## TruXta (Dec 4, 2012)

nipsla said:


> It's from their own twitter feed:
> 
> *Nour Cash & Carry* ‏@*NourCashCarry*
> @*Brixtonite* We had a visit from the bailiffs on Friday morning, no warning, no letters, nothing, just demanding more money.Faceless bullies.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 4, 2012)

nipsla said:


> It's from their own twitter feed:
> 
> *Nour Cash & Carry* ‏@*NourCashCarry*
> @*Brixtonite* We had a visit from the bailiffs on Friday morning, no warning, no letters, nothing, just demanding more money.Faceless bullies.


Ah ok, missed that. Shit.


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## Manter (Dec 4, 2012)

nipsla said:


> It's from their own twitter feed:
> 
> *Nour Cash & Carry* ‏@*NourCashCarry*
> @*Brixtonite* We had a visit from the bailiffs on Friday morning, no warning, no letters, nothing, just demanding more money.Faceless bullies.


there must be something else going on.  you don't send baliffs in to demand funds that come due in the future


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## editor (Jan 3, 2013)

Piece in the Standard today:


> Saja Shaheen, whose family opened Nour Cash & Carry in the market 12 years ago, said she has enlisted solicitors to negotiate with market managers over the 22 per cent rent increase starting in May. She said: “It was a shock. In the past we’ve taken a back seat with everything but this time we’ve gone to our solicitors and we’re trying to negotiate — but they’re not having it.
> 
> “I think it’s part of a wider campaign to change the demographic of Brixton, trying to push out the older community like us who’ve been there for years and effectively made Brixton what it is. I wouldn’t be surprised if they brought in a Starbucks or a Pret.”
> http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...s-out-say-brixton-market-traders-8436274.html


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## pippa100 (Jan 13, 2013)

Please sign the petition to save Nour Cash and Carry http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/save-nour-cash-and-carry-brixton-market.html

Nour Cash & Carry has been serving the Brixton community for over 10 years, providing an affordable alternative to the supermarket chains and is much loved by local residents. 

It is now facing closure due to an unprecedented 22% rent increase by In shops limited, contracted by London Associated Properties to manage Market Row. 

Nour Cash & Carry - a family run middle eastern shop - is an essential part of a vibrant Brixton Market. It sells affordable foodstuffs from around the world, that reflect the rich cultural heritage of the local community.

The threat facing Nour is part of a wider trend in Brixton, with rent increases threatening the diverse nature of Brixton Market. 

We must protect the unique character of the market and ensure it remains at the heart of our community. 

For more information see this article from the Evening Standard

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...s-out-say-brixton-market-traders-8436274.html

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/save-nour-cash-and-carry-brixton-market.html

http://www.facebook.com/SaveNourCashCarryBrixton


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## pippa100 (Jan 13, 2013)

TruXta said:


> 22% increase in a year? That's fucking outrageous.


http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/save-nour-cash-and-carry-brixton-market.html


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## TruXta (Jan 14, 2013)

pippa100 said:


> http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/save-nour-cash-and-carry-brixton-market.html


Signed. I was only #48 - this needs to be spread further.


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## editor (Jan 14, 2013)

I've started a separate thread for the petition - hopefully it will help more people get to hear about it.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/petition-to-save-nour-cash-carry-in-brixton-market.304908/


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## Crispy (Jan 14, 2013)

Signed


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## Brixton Hatter (Jan 17, 2013)

bump


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## newbie (Jan 20, 2013)

I don't really get this petition.

Leaving aside the sheer improbability of the landlord being remotely interested, why are only Nour mentioned?  Why not the wig shop, the halal butchers or any of the others? They're not mentioned, aren't they affected, aren't they vibrant enough?

I've been shopping in Nour for a good few years, long before it became iconic on here.  The location is great, on a good day it can be a real giggle rather than an awkward struggle, but the way the staff are barked at does make me wonder a bit.  I'd be very interested to know whether they have better or worse T&C than those who work for Tesco or Iceland: pay, pensions, holidays, discounts....

Anyway, it's by no means the only place locally that carries that range of goods (or better), it's not necessarily the cheapest, and it's a long way from being the quickest and easiest to browse or pay in. And yet there seems to be a move to give a some sort of special, protected, status


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## thriller (Jan 20, 2013)

wasn't one of those hala buthers caught selling illegal under the counter meat a while back on bbc london? I don't really care for Nours that much. Only go there to see if they have any pomogranates for sale. It's prices are no different to any other asian stores you find in London. Don't really get the store vibe people talk about. On a side note: about two weeks ago saw a rasta put some green chillies in his carrier bag and just walk out. We made eye contact, but I didn't want to get involved over some stolen chillies..........


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## Frumious B. (Jan 20, 2013)

newbie said:


> it's by no means the only place locally that carries that range of goods (or better), it's not necessarily the cheapest, and it's a long way from being the quickest and easiest to browse or pay in. And yet there seems to be a move to give a some sort of special, protected, status


 
Judging by the crowds of customers a lot of people disagree with you. Why do you think they shop there? Why do they come from all over London?


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## uk benzo (Jan 20, 2013)

newbie, I can't get the Arabic food products anywhere else locally. And they are cheaper than the second nearest place which is Green Valley off Edgware Road. It's a no brainer really. 

And what other place in Brixton stock their range of fruits and vegetables at the price they sell them at? I'll use the £1 fruit bowl guys for standard stuff like bananas, but the harder to come by stuff I'll get from them as they pretty much make the effort to stock that kind of stuff at a competitive price.


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## newbie (Jan 20, 2013)

<gulp> why people behave as they do is a bit deep 

I'm not knocking the place, as I said I shop there, I'm asking why there's a petition about them in particular.

People are coming from all over London for the market as a whole but I hadn't really noticed them using Nour particularly. Is the petition down to them marketing effectively? There's an awful lot of shops around there I can't name, that one I can, so can google, twitter, facebook, Time Out etc.


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## thriller (Jan 21, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Why do they come from all over London?


 
where is the evidence they "come from all over london?" what a nonsense statement. have these people never heard of brick lane? Tooting? Green Street? Woolworth Road? There are many shops there selling more or less the same or in case of Brick Lane, much bigger range of produce.


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## Ms T (Jan 21, 2013)

uk benzo said:


> newbie, I can't get the Arabic food products anywhere else locally. And they are cheaper than the second nearest place which is Green Valley off Edgware Road. It's a no brainer really.
> 
> And what other place in Brixton stock their range of fruits and vegetables at the price they sell them at? I'll use the £1 fruit bowl guys for standard stuff like bananas, but the harder to come by stuff I'll get from them as they pretty much make the effort to stock that kind of stuff at a competitive price.




The second nearest place would be Persepolis in Peckham which is excellent. There's also the Algerian shop by the rec. Anda lot of stuff you van get pretty easily elsewhere - especially since Ottolenghi created a market for lots of Middle Eastern ingredients. The only thing I struggle to get locally are barberries, and I ad to go to Persepolis for those.


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## newbie (Jan 21, 2013)

uk benzo said:


> newbie, I can't get the Arabic food products anywhere else locally. And they are cheaper than the second nearest place which is Green Valley off Edgware Road. It's a no brainer really.
> 
> And what other place in Brixton stock their range of fruits and vegetables at the price they sell them at? I'll use the £1 fruit bowl guys for standard stuff like bananas, but the harder to come by stuff I'll get from them as they pretty much make the effort to stock that kind of stuff at a competitive price.


I guess every good shop in the market sells something no-one else does, but the vast bulk of what they sell is available elsewhere locally, though I suppose I'm thinking more of the dry goods than fruit n veg.


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## Ms T (Jan 21, 2013)

newbie said:


> I guess every good shop in the market sells something no-one else does, but the vast bulk of what they sell is available elsewhere locally, though I suppose I'm thinking more of the dry goods than fruit n veg.


This is largely true, but they sell it all in one place for bargain prices.


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## uk benzo (Jan 21, 2013)

Ms T said:


> The second nearest place would be Persepolis in Peckham which is excellent. There's also the Algerian shop by the rec. Anda lot of stuff you van get pretty easily elsewhere - especially since Ottolenghi created a market for lots of Middle Eastern ingredients. The only thing I struggle to get locally are barberries, and I ad to go to Persepolis for those.


 
Peckham is too out of the way for me. Badr Butchers, the Algerian shop you speak of, don't stock the full compliment of Arabic products that I need, which Nour do, and they are very expensive- although their merguez are worth it.

I agree with you, there are other shops that stock bits of what I need, but ultimately Nour stocks most of what I want. This saves me a lot of time and effort when shopping- especially when I've got my toddler with me.


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## eroom (Jan 21, 2013)

newbie said:


> I don't really get this petition.
> 
> Leaving aside the sheer improbability of the landlord being remotely interested, why are only Nour mentioned? Why not the wig shop, the halal butchers or any of the others? They're not mentioned, aren't they affected, aren't they vibrant enough?
> 
> ...


 


Nour is undoubtedly one of the cheapest, best-stocked and jolliest places to shop in the market: but you're right, it's not unique. But it is highly representative of the kind of longstanding, locally-owned shop that is struggling in the face of changes to the make-up of the market and seemingly avaricious landlords.

The reason, for me at least, that Nour deserves special attention is that I use and like the shop (I don't currently trouble the wig shop, for example) and - from what little i know of them - I like the Nour people. But, more importantly, Nour told us - the community - that they were struggling and needed help.

I also hope campaigning on behalf of Nour will make a broader point to the market owners - and hopefully other shop-owners - that the community cares about the complexion of the market in general and is more than capable of making a noise about it.

The market's problems are now regularly picked up by the media and part of that is down to using Nour as a flag to rally round. That's why it's worth doing even if you don't think Nour themselves deserve special treatment.


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## Frumious B. (Jan 21, 2013)

thriller said:


> where is the evidence they "come from all over london?" what a nonsense statement. have these people never heard of brick lane? Tooting? Green Street? Woolworth Road? There are many shops there selling more or less the same or in case of Brick Lane, much bigger range of produce.


I don't have all the customers' addresses.   I got my 'evidence' from the owner and his family. Is that good enough for you? Why don't you do a survey?


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2013)

thriller said:


> where is the evidence they "come from all over london?" what a nonsense statement. have these people never heard of brick lane? Tooting? Green Street? Woolworth Road? There are many shops there selling more or less the same or in case of Brick Lane, much bigger range of produce.


 
You'd be surprised how many people don't know about Tooting, and some people avoid East Street (*Wal*worth Rd) because of a) its reputation for street crime and/or legendary crowdedness (sometimes worse than Brixton).


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 21, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I don't have all the customers' addresses.  I got my 'evidence' from the owner and his family. Is that good enough for you? *Why don't you do a survey?*


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## newbie (Jan 22, 2013)

eroom said:


> Nour told us - the community - that they were struggling and needed help.
> 
> I also hope campaigning on behalf of Nour will make a broader point to the market owners - and hopefully other shop-owners - that the community cares about the complexion of the market in general and is more than capable of making a noise about it.


 
that's all clear, thanks.  And it's up to well over 800 sigs now, which is quite impressive. 

So the broad point is made that Nour is a successful business which has built a loyal customer base.  Such clear evidence surely gives a hardheaded landlord all the more reason to enforce their rent rise, as there is clear evidence that Nour is unlikely to upsticks and move, which would be a risk with a less established tenant.


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## Frumious B. (Jan 22, 2013)

newbie said:


> Such clear evidence surely gives a hardheaded landlord all the more reason to enforce their rent rise


 
Prick.


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## leanderman (Jan 22, 2013)

newbie said:


> that's all clear, thanks. And it's up to well over 800 sigs now, which is quite impressive.
> 
> So the broad point is made that Nour is a successful business which has built a loyal customer base. Such clear evidence surely gives a hardheaded landlord all the more reason to enforce their rent rise, as there is clear evidence that Nour is unlikely to upsticks and move, which would be a risk with a less established tenant.


 
That is blackmail!


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## happyshopper (Jan 22, 2013)

leanderman said:


> That is blackmail!


 
It's more like routine capitalism


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## leanderman (Jan 22, 2013)

happyshopper said:


> It's more like routine capitalism


 
Really? No wonder I am so useless at it!


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## fortyplus (Jan 23, 2013)

I think the petition and the publicity are helping.

The stories are a bit confused though, apparently it's not all rent rise, a lot of it is service charge. The way InShops handle this is, like everything else they do, crassly incompetent; the lease says something like "anything the landlord spends or deems itself to have spent on heat/light/power/security etc" is payable by the tenant - it's an open-ended commitment, and in the basic lease there's no right for tenants to audit the landlords' expenditure or challenge anything, although I think many tenants have negotiated caps etc.  Nour probably didn't. 

InShops would like to be considered as key partners for Lambeth in plans for the future central brixton  development, but if they carry on getting such negative publicity the council will not want to touch them with a bargepole. It doesn't help  that no one at InShops seems to have anything resembling a bastard clue about either the community or the nature of the trade in the arcades.   

In other news, all traders are getting together to create a CIC to have a stronger voice about all these ongoing issues. Late opening is a very hot one; the only contractual hours are 8.30-5.30 Mon-Sat, anything more (including Sundays) is at the whim of InShops, subject to an arbitrary additional charge and can be withdrawn without notice. Hardly a secure basis on which to build a business.


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## newbie (Jan 23, 2013)

cheers for that, so the petition is to help identify and isolate InShops?  Nour seems to have volunteered to be the figurehead, but it sounds like they're supported by a wider group of traders as well as their customers. 

Fair enough, landlords don't deserve any sympathy. 

I'm rather hazy about which parts of the market have Inshops as landlord. Is it just the indoor arcades or do they run street shops as well?  Their website doesn't even mention Brixton 

It'll be interesting to see what a traders group wants of Inshops in particular and other landlords in general, and of Lambeth.


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## RaverDrew (Jan 29, 2013)




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## editor (Jan 29, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


>



I saw that fella in action in New York, with an urbanite providing the accompanying music!












http://www.urban75.org/photos/newyork/rev-billy-buy-nothing-day.html


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## Brixton Hatter (Feb 25, 2013)

belated sort-of-apologetic article in 'support' of Nour by the Eat in Brixton website:

http://eatinbrixton.com/2013/02/25/nour-cash-carry/


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## Frumious B. (Feb 27, 2013)

Victory! http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/victory-for-nour.306925/ I'm so excited I thought it worth a new thread.


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