# URGENT - disciplinary tomorrow



## q_w_e_r_t_y (Dec 5, 2008)

A friend of mine's son has been called to a disciplinary hearing tomorrow for alleged gross misconduct.  He works in a call centre and the allegation is that he has hung up on customers.  I've seen the "evidence" and it is utter rubbish.  He has only been working there a few months and it looks v. much like they are looking for ways of shedding staff by the back door (he has been told that other probationers are also under investigation for the same thing)

They are not following statutory procedure and the allegation is totally trumphed up.   From what I can see, there is no action he can take if they do fire him...is this right that you have no protection from unfair dismissal unless you have under one years service?


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## Kanda (Dec 5, 2008)

Did he hang up on customers? Yes/No?


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## bluestreak (Dec 5, 2008)

Under six months = NO RIGHTS.  End of story.  Unless they specifically sack him for reasons that are clearly and obviously discriminatory there is nothing he can do.


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## Kanda (Dec 5, 2008)

Under one years service? Fuck all protection apart from discrimination etc...


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## snadge (Dec 5, 2008)

More like under 2 years, no rights.

FFS there are shit loads of people losing their jobs, why are you so bothered about this one?


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## nursey (Dec 5, 2008)

Sorry but I'd say that no protection/decency/policy is one of the hazards of a call centre job. Is it worth fighting? Mebbe just get a new job?


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## Kanda (Dec 5, 2008)

snadge said:


> More like under 2 years, no rights.
> 
> FFS there are shit loads of people losing their jobs, why are you so bothered about this one?


 
Wasn't it bought down to 1 yr about 7 yrs ago....


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## cesare (Dec 5, 2008)

He is not protected against _unfair_ dismissal. 

But if someone is *wrongfully* dismissed they can make a claim to the Employment Tribunal even if they don't have a year's service. 

Wrongful dismissal is a contractual breach and often occurs where an employee is dismissed with no notice, as is often the case with summary dismissal for gross misconduct. 

Employment Tribunals can hear contract claims up to £25K, and there are no service related conditions for making a claim.

So, if the worst comes to the worst and he is summarily dismissed without notice tomorrow for a "trumped up" charge; where the employer is, perhaps, trying to save the cost of notice pay - all is not lost.


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## cesare (Dec 5, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Wasn't it bought down to 1 yr about 7 yrs ago....



Even longer ago than that, the myth persists.


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## bluestreak (Dec 5, 2008)

Interesting, how would you prove wrongful dismissal in this case I wonder?


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## cesare (Dec 5, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> Interesting, how would you prove wrongful dismissal in this case I wonder?




To start with, they would have to dismiss him without notice or payment in lieu of notice. That's simple to prove. Even if they pay notice, they might slip up by breaching other contractual rights e.g. failure to follow a contractual dismissal procedure.

He would also have to prove that the offence wasn't gross misconduct warranting suimmary dismissal. For gross misconduct to have taken place, the misconduct must have been sufficiently grave to have gone to the heart of the employment contract e.g. theft, fraud etc.


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## cesare (Dec 5, 2008)

nursey said:


> Sorry but I'd say that no protection/decency/policy is one of the hazards of a call centre job. Is it worth fighting? Mebbe just get a new job?



People shouldn't accept it though, otherwise these conditions will never change.


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## q_w_e_r_t_y (Dec 5, 2008)

No - he didnt hang up on customers.  

The evidence that they have presented him with is a typed up list of calls (ie not a print out or anything official) where calls were ended after a few seconds - no indication that it was him or that there was anyone on the other end.  They consider hanging up on customers gross misconduct - that is stated in the disciplinary procedure.

He really needs a union...


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## cesare (Dec 5, 2008)

q_w_e_r_t_y said:


> No - he didnt hang up on customers.
> 
> The evidence that they have presented him with is a typed up list of calls (ie not a print out or anything official) where calls were ended after a few seconds - no indication that it was him or that there was anyone on the other end.  They consider hanging up on customers gross misconduct - that is stated in the disciplinary procedure.
> 
> He really needs a union...



It's too late to get union representation for tomorrow, and in any event unions mostly refuse to accept members that only join for assistance with a particular disciplinary. It's definitely worth him doing that for the future though.

As far as tomorrow is concerned, he should prepare as thoroughly as possible. He should take with him a list of questions to ask including asking for the source of this typed list, and he should be prepared to state his case. 

If he has been given the right of accompaniment (his statutory right) and has a fellow colleague to go with him - his colleague should make notes of what is said as well as asking questions/clarifying. If he has no colleague, he should try and take notes himself.

Good luck to him.


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## nursey (Dec 5, 2008)

cesare said:


> People shouldn't accept it though, otherwise these conditions will never change.



This is true but sometimes you can cause yourself so much stress it's not worth it. If you can get support to help you then definitely go for it.
Fair play and all the support to those who can keep fighting this sort of shit and helping others do the same


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## free spirit (Dec 5, 2008)

q_w_e_r_t_y said:


> No - he didnt hang up on customers.
> 
> The evidence that they have presented him with is a typed up list of calls (ie not a print out or anything official) where calls were ended after a few seconds - no indication that it was him or that there was anyone on the other end.  They consider hanging up on customers gross misconduct - that is stated in the disciplinary procedure.
> 
> He really needs a union...


no way should dropping calls be gross misconduct if this is the first time he's been made aware of the problem - first step would surely be to be made aware of the problem by line manager, with additional training in the use of the system / care needing to be taken to not accidentally press the drop call button. 

IMO only if he continued to drop calls after being warned / retrained about it should it be gross misconduct. Could easily be an accidental thing depending upon the placement of the drop call button, or could even be that he never got trained what the drop call button was properly so he was pressing it at the end of calls to end the call by mistake, meaning that if the other person had hung up first on his last call, he'd be dropping the call for the next caller... loads of potential reasons it could happen, not just deliberately dropping calls - which is why additional training should be the first option, not sacking.

also if it's a call centre then the calls should be recorded, so I'd say he ought to ask them to produce copies of the tapes to prove gross misconduct - as if he were deliberately dropping calls then there'd surely be the customer saying 'hello' followed by the call being dropped, whereas if it shows him saying 'hello, hello etc.' and getting no response, then it'd be fair enough to drop the call... aaaand if this is an outbound call centre with automatic dialling, it's quite common for it to actually be the person on the other end who's hung up - many of these systems give a few seconds of silence after the person's answered, and a lot of people will realise it's a call centre and hang up when they get this, which would show on their logs as connected for a few seconds then call ended... unless the logs actually show him hitting the drop call button, which it doesn't sound like they do.

basically it's upto them to offer some proof that he's deliberately dropping calls, and it doesn't sound like they've got any proof at all to me if it's just based on call duration stats.


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## free spirit (Dec 5, 2008)

on the other hand though, if it's definately looking like they're planning to sack loads of people - writings on the wall etc. then I guess his best tactic might be to stand his ground to a certain extent by making it clear that he doesn't accept the gross misconduct charge, but offering to leave by mutual consent if they pay up his weeks notice and give him a good reference... at least that way he'll have a decent reference, which'd stand him in much better stead for finding a new job than a reference that states he was sacked for gross misconduct.

From convo's with a mate who was a call centre manager for a well known between yellow and red phone company, it's pretty common for them to get taken to employment tribunals for wrongful dismissal etc. but they don't really give a shit as the compensation tends to be relatively small, and most people can't be arsed to see it through properly anyway... so it could well be the better option to accept his fate and aim for a good reference / not having gross misconduct on his record rather than fighting them and getting a shit reference, winning a few hundred quid compensation but not being able to easily get other work.


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## Upchuck (Dec 5, 2008)

When I worked in a call centre I used to hang up on people all the time.  Sometimes it would become sport and a few of us would make a covert agreement to have a period of hanging up on callers. The irate caller would then ring back and complain they had been cut off and we would 'go mmm, yes, that's no good etc etc' and then hang up again just after we'd said that  Also if there was a real dick on the line we would be talking to them and then suddenly say 'hello? hello? oh the line must be cut off' and hang up as the caller was going mental on the other end of the phone  I am smiling now just thinking about those days 

Sadly your friends son is paying for the legacy of me and childish call centre operative like me


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## Gavin Bl (Dec 5, 2008)

can he ask to see the call logs, if they had the info to type up the list, then there must be call logs - and if so, why type up the info.

If they produce something, then ask to see other call logs to see if they are legit.

If he can get them to agree to it...


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## q_w_e_r_t_y (Dec 5, 2008)

Hearing was today.  He got handed a letter an hour before telling him that the "disciplinary manager" would be in attendence and one of the outcomes would be dismissal. 

He was allowed to listen to recordings which clearly show no caller on the other end - about 20 in total over a 3 month period.  Apparently only in one does anyone other than him speak.

He was told that he would be told the outcome 2h after the meeting (and half an hour after his shift ended), when he went back to the managers office, the phone was on speakerphone, and he heard HR say that "this is going to be a difficult one to get rid of"  Manager came out and told him that he would find out the outcome on Monday. 

This has fuck all to do with his performance and all to do with lowering RBS payroll without negative publicity IMHO, seems to be a clear tactic to harass probationers until they leave.


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## Mr Smin (Dec 6, 2008)

The irony of working in a call centre with full recording system (such as a bank) is that the recordings are your ally in this situation. Irony because the system is in place for the protection of the bank not the staff.

One negotiating option - since they are trying to shrink the payroll - is to leave on favorable terms - ie. a good reference. You don't want to be dismissed for GM even if it were true.


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## q_w_e_r_t_y (Dec 6, 2008)

They dismissed him at 4.30 yesterday and escorted him off the premises


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## Fedayn (Dec 6, 2008)

q_w_e_r_t_y said:


> They dismissed him at 4.30 yesterday and escorted him off the premises



Thought they'd told him Monday? Or did you find out later last night?


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## LilMissHissyFit (Dec 6, 2008)

q_w_e_r_t_y said:


> Hearing was today.  He got handed a letter an hour before telling him that the "disciplinary manager" would be in attendence and one of the outcomes would be dismissal.
> 
> He was allowed to listen to recordings which clearly show no caller on the other end - about 20 in total over a 3 month period.  Apparently only in one does anyone other than him speak.
> 
> ...




If theyve said "This is going to be a hard one to get rid of" that means it looks like they are worried that to get rid of him could well backfire on them.
Perhaps Caesare can advise on where he should go from here. It sounds like theyve decided to take the chance that he wont challenge it- which is precisely the reason that he should.


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## q_w_e_r_t_y (Dec 6, 2008)

Fedayn said:


> Thought they'd told him Monday? Or did you find out later last night?



The last I heard yesterday was that they had said that they would tell him Monday, but his mum emailed this morning and told me that he said he would just wait for a decision, at 4.30 they announced that they had decided to dismiss him and escorted him out.


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## cesare (Dec 6, 2008)

He needs to know whether or not they're going to pay him in lieu of notice. 

Can you ask him to check his contract/handbook to see whether the disciplinary rules are contractual as well.

I can post up step by step info about what to do next, but I need a bit more info about the disciplinary hearing including the content of that letter.


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## 5t3IIa (Dec 6, 2008)

Did he defend himself? Say 'BUt there was no-one on the fone'?

Sorry - no advice but I'm interested/nosey


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2008)

NO one on the other line and he gets the sack? What for, badly dialing a few numbers?


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