# Climate change policies



## stavros (Sep 29, 2021)

I'm sensing a shift in media coverage of the issue, rowing back a little from telling individuals to voluntarily change their behaviours, and instead saying systemic change is required. They don't usually advocate anything particular, beyond an objective, e.g. fly less, eat less meat, etc.

So what policies should be introduced, at any level of government?


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## yield (Sep 29, 2021)

Degrowth

I broadly agree with George Monbiot is this article. A stopped clock & all that








						‘Green growth’ doesn’t exist – less of everything is the only way to avert catastrophe | George Monbiot
					

It is simply not possible to carry on at the current level of economic activity without destroying the environment, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot




					www.theguardian.com
				



Wed 29 Sep 2021


> We have no hope of emerging from this full-spectrum crisis unless we dramatically reduce economic activity. Wealth must be distributed – a constrained world cannot afford the rich – but it must also be reduced. Sustaining our life-support systems means doing less of almost everything. But this notion – that should be central to a new, environmental ethics – is secular blasphemy.


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## Flavour (Sep 29, 2021)

All public transport to be totally free and road tax to be increased exponentially in line with emissions of vehicles. Ban private flights. Build more wind turbines.


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## stavros (Sep 30, 2021)

Flavour said:


> road tax to be increased exponentially


To be pedantic if you increased road tax exponentially it'd still be zero.

To be less of a smart-arse the free public transport one is something worthy of discussion. Those of pensionable age are eligible for off-peak free local bus travel*; how much would it cost to make this benefit universal? If that's too ambitious for government to stomach how much would it cost to extend it to those under 17?

*I've got a feeling pensioners in London might get free Tube travel off-peak too, although I'm happy to have this rubbished.


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## weltweit (Sep 30, 2021)

All sorts of emissions reductions and massed tree planting. 
Nothing less than the reforestation of the UK.


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## ska invita (Sep 30, 2021)

yield said:


> Degrowth
> 
> I broadly agree with George Monbiot is this article. A stopped clock & all that
> 
> ...



Agree degrowth - i spotted theres been a few books written about it recently - im convinced of the need just wonder how much can it be theorised and planned, particularly from an economic point of view that doesnt lead to greater poverty....can managed degrowth happen within a capitalist system etc? curious to read something on it


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## magneze (Sep 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Agree degrowth - i spotted theres been a few books written about it recently - im convinced of the need just wonder how much can it be theorised and planned, particularly from an economic point of view that doesnt lead to greater poverty....can managed degrowth happen within a capitalist system etc? curious to read something on it


Kate Raworth's Doughnut Economics is worth a look.








						Doughnut (economic model) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## ska invita (Sep 30, 2021)

magneze said:


> Kate Raworth's Doughnut Economics is worth a look.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hah yeah i did fast-read that when it came out (in one ear and out the other tends to be me) but somehow didnt file it mentally as a degrowth book, though i guess it is, in part at least, for poorer countries do still need to grow to meet satisfactory life needs ... quick look about and the author Kate has a post here about why she deliberately doesn't use the term - mainly for semantic reasons it seems


			Why Degrowth has out-grown its own name. Guest post by Kate Raworth | From Poverty to Power
		


I had in mind more recent books like these that explicitly use the terms in their titles








						The Case for Degrowth a book by Giorgos Kallis, Susan Paulson, Giacomo D'Alisa, et al.
					

The relentless pursuit of economic growth is the defining characteristic of contemporary societies. Yet it benefits few and demands monstrous social and ecological sacrifice. Is there a viable alternative? How can we halt the endless quest to grow global production and consumption and instead...




					uk.bookshop.org
				











						Exploring Degrowth: A Critical Guide a book by Vincent Liegey and Anitra Nelson.
					

A sense of urgency pervades global environmentalism, and the degrowth movement is bursting into the mainstream. As climate catastrophe looms closer, people are eager to learn what degrowth is about, and whether we can save the planet by changing how we live. This book is an introduction to the...




					uk.bookshop.org
				











						Less is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World a book by Jason Hickel.
					

'A powerfully disruptive book for disrupted times ...     If you're looking for transformative ideas, this book is for you.'   KATE RAWORTH, economist and author of   Doughnut Economics      A     Financial Times   Book of the Year    ______________________________________  Our planet is in...




					uk.bookshop.org
				




this seems a good short overview of the concept








						Degrowth: the case for a new economic paradigm
					

Unbridled growth appears to be at odds with social well-being and environmental sustainability. How might we develop a model that reduces the imperative for growth while maintaining economic stability?




					www.opendemocracy.net
				




too much to read in life


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## magneze (Sep 30, 2021)

That's an interesting post by Raworth on degrowth. She's right about it I feel. But ultimately whatever you call it an increasing number of people are waking up to the fundamental issue with infinite growth. How we disentagle ourselves from it though. 🤯


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## stavros (Oct 2, 2021)

Is labelling food with its CO2e footprint at all feasible? I presume there'd be a degree of estimation, but the footprints of core foods are fairly well known and published. For numerical nerds such as me this kind of quantification works.


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## ska invita (Oct 2, 2021)

stavros said:


> Is labelling food with its CO2e footprint at all feasible? I presume there'd be a degree of estimation, but the footprints of core foods are fairly well known and published. For numerical nerds such as me this kind of quantification works.


looking at the country of origin gives a lot of info no?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> looking at the country of origin gives a lot of info no?


You'd have thought so


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## stavros (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> looking at the country of origin gives a lot of info no?


It gives some, regarding transport, although according to this, from Mike Berners-Lee, UK broccoli has a marginally higher footprint per kg than New Zealand apples.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 2, 2021)

stavros said:


> It gives some, regarding transport, although according to this, from Mike Berners-Lee, UK broccoli has a marginally higher footprint per kg than New Zealand apples.


Still better than broccoli from New Zealand, presumably.


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## stavros (Oct 3, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Still better than broccoli from New Zealand, presumably.


I would presume that too, although I'll be happy to be proven wrong by anyone who knows more about this sort of thing. It's clear the footprint of any foodstuff is a product of many factors.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 3, 2021)

Along with banning non-essential flying and cruise ships, there should be huge increases in taxation to drive down private car use, likewise to reduce meat consumption.


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## stavros (Oct 3, 2021)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Along with banning non-essential flying


"Essential" is a difficult term to define. In the early days of Covid the government found that, and a similar mindset applies to a lot of behaviours .


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## Leafster (Oct 3, 2021)

If we're talking about the UK, the planning rules need to be beefed up to make sure all new build properties (both residential and commercial) are far more thermally efficient. All renovations and extensions should also meet the same regulations. 

Also sort out the VAT anomalies where new build properties are zero-rated but renovations and repairs can be either 5% (in some cases) or 20%. It encourages demolition of buildings which could be converted with less energy and new resources.


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## ska invita (Oct 3, 2021)

stavros said:


> It's clear the footprint of any foodstuff is a product of many factors.


What are they?

For fruit and veg i would guess transport is the key one.
For animals that also includes feed and grazing land on top of transport.  There's animal farts too

Is that too simplistic?

(In that apple v broccoli example above the carbon footprint is per kg ... Could it be something to do with the ratio of brocollis to apples in weight?)


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## maomao (Oct 3, 2021)

Personally I would introduce a genuinely livable UBI and encourage people to stop working and travelling. Bonuses for giving up private cars etc. Reopen libraries and turn vacant shops into educational and cultural centres so people have something to do with all their extra spare time. Create new allotments wherever possible and encourage people to contribute to local food supplies. Some sort of national service so that the shitty jobs still get done. All houses would be insulated and have a dual plumbing system installed so that we could use human waste as cheap and carbon neutral fertiliser. 

In reality there won't be any meaningful climate change policies until the very last minute and then they will be authoritarian and unfair.


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## Brainaddict (Oct 3, 2021)

It's all very difficult. For instance even if we had a more equal world, how would you deal with the issue of consumption luxuries? Either you tax them to hell and make them only for the rich, or you ban them altogether, or you ration them. None of the options are very palatable. It's hard to imagine what shifts would make them palatable.


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## yield (Oct 3, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> It's all very difficult. For instance even if we had a more equal world, how would you deal with the issue of consumption luxuries?











						The everyday foods that could become luxuries
					

Everyday foods such as coffee, meat and spices could become luxury items due to global climate impacts and changing tastes.




					www.bbc.com
				






> Today, chocolate and coffee are, once again, at risk of becoming expensive and inaccessible.
> 
> "Chocolate and coffee could both become scarce, luxury foods again because of climate change," says Monika Zurek, a senior researcher at the Environmental Change Institute at the University of Oxford.





> Vast swathes of land in Ghana and Ivory Coast could become unsuitable for cocoa production if global temperature rises reach 2C, according to a 2013 study. "Cocoa used to be for kings and nobody else. Climate change is hitting production areas hard...it could become more luxurious again," says Zurek.
> 
> Climate change could wipe out half of the land used to grow coffee worldwide by 2050, according to a 2015 study. Another study suggests that areas suitable for growing coffee in Latin America could decrease by 88% by 2050 due to rising temperatures.





			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		



> No country on Earth puts more breakfasts on kitchen tables than Brazil.
> 
> The farms that dot the vast plains and highlands that rise above the Atlantic coast produce four-fifths of the world’s orange juice exports, half of its sugar exports, a third of coffee exports and a third of the soy and corn used to feed egg-laying hens and other livestock.





> So when the region’s crops were scorched and then frozen this year by a devastating one-two punch fueled by climate change — the worst drought in a century followed by an unprecedented Antarctic front that repeatedly coated the land in thick frost — global commodity markets shook.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 3, 2021)

stavros said:


> "Essential" is a difficult term to define. In the early days of Covid the government found that, and a similar mindset applies to a lot of behaviours .


I'd be happy to be the national arbiter of whether a flight is essential - the default answer would be no of course.  Reckon it'd be good fun to piss off so many people.


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## stavros (Oct 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> What are they?
> 
> For fruit and veg i would guess transport is the key one.
> For animals that also includes feed and grazing land on top of transport.  There's animal farts too
> ...


I don't know, to be honest. I think there's a carbon cost to fertilisers, and the size of it may differ between different crops.

There seems to be unanimity among those without a vested interest that meat has a heavy footprint, and that red meat in particular is guilty. The fact that it has some negative health consequences, especially when processed, could be a route taken in reducing consumption, e.g. "burger off".


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## stavros (Oct 9, 2021)

stavros said:


> Is labelling food with its CO2e footprint at all feasible? I presume there'd be a degree of estimation, but the footprints of core foods are fairly well known and published. For numerical nerds such as me this kind of quantification works.


On a similar thread to my suggestion Sweden are eco-labelling their fuel at petrol stations. I don't expect the UK to follow any time soon, but other countries, with more progressive governments might.


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## stavros (Oct 10, 2021)

This looks neat too, running hybrid trucks like Scalextric cars in Germany. Our government is keen to extol the virtues of technology in solving the climate crisis; this could be something along those lines to keep an eye on.


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## Artaxerxes (Oct 15, 2021)

UK trade deals should prioritise economic growth over environmental protections - leaked govt document
					

The document says it can be very difficult to trade with some countries that do not necessarily support saving the environment but the government says ministers are not considering the advice.




					news.sky.com
				




Meanwhile in Britain


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## stavros (Oct 16, 2021)

stavros said:


> Is labelling food with its CO2e footprint at all feasible? I presume there'd be a degree of estimation, but the footprints of core foods are fairly well known and published. For numerical nerds such as me this kind of quantification works.


Not solely CO2e, there seems to be some push towards this, with support from Nestlé and some of the big supermarkets. It'll be interesting to see if this gains momentum.


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## stavros (Oct 31, 2021)

Bikes still have VAT charged on them. Getting rid of that would be a small measure, but if publicised would look like a positive step.


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## Humberto (Oct 31, 2021)

They are destroying the planet, which is par for the course.


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## Humberto (Oct 31, 2021)

Reduce Carbon Footprint says the bbc. Carbon footprint is a marketing con. From oil companies.


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## Humberto (Oct 31, 2021)

To protect their profits at our expense.


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## Raheem (Nov 1, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Still better than broccoli from New Zealand, presumably.


More importantly, double the CO2 compared to UK-grown apples.


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## 8ball (Nov 1, 2021)

magneze said:


> Kate Raworth's Doughnut Economics is worth a look.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I had a brief look at it a while back.  Aside from the perfectly good takedown of the current economic order, there appeared to be almost nothing in terms of actual economics there.
Maybe it's mostly an attempt to get some kind of ball rolling.


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## Chilli.s (Nov 1, 2021)

Degrowth or some such similar conservation of all resources is the key, it is completely at odds with most of capitalism/economics that values growth over everything. And a radical shake up of transport and housing. Then it's all golden


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## magneze (Nov 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> I had a brief look at it a while back.  Aside from the perfectly good takedown of the current economic order, there appeared to be almost nothing in terms of actual economics there.
> Maybe it's mostly an attempt to get some kind of ball rolling.


What sort of "actual economics" do you think needs to be added to it?


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## StoneRoad (Nov 1, 2021)

Reduce private car use ?

Walking or cycling - not really practical, even with greatly reduced traffic, roads are not safe.

OK, somewhere to cheaply charge an electric car and it would need a decent range. 
[Many of my business trips can be several hundred miles ... not frequent ones, I admit, but still have to do them - I can't prod a piece of wood to feel if it is rotten by remote means]

Or, decent access to proper public transport.
And, enough space etc on that transport to be safe - especially from Covid !


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## 8ball (Nov 1, 2021)

magneze said:


> What sort of "actual economics" do you think needs to be added to it?



Any.

Like I said, it was a fairly brief look but please point out any I have missed.
What I saw was a proposed re-framing of priorities, which is nice, and some good descriptions of both the human shortfalls of the current setup and also how it fails on its own terms, which was all good.


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## magneze (Nov 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> Any.
> 
> Like I said, it was a fairly brief look but please point out any I have missed.


What do you count as "actual economics"?


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## 8ball (Nov 1, 2021)

magneze said:


> What do you count as "actual economics"?



You need me to Google "economics" for you?


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## magneze (Nov 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> You need me to Google "economics" for you?


Please do.


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## 8ball (Nov 1, 2021)

magneze said:


> Please do.








						LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You
					

For all those people who find it more convenient to bother you with their question rather than to Google it for themselves.




					lmgtfy.app


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## StoneRoad (Nov 1, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Reduce Carbon Footprint says the bbc. Carbon footprint is a marketing con. From oil companies.



That as maybe, but it is a shorthand term within a far more complex problem.

If it helps the general public & government / officialdom understand the problem, to devise ways and means to solve the climate emergency plus actually actively doing something towards the solution(s) ...

Then I'm all for it !


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## 8ball (Nov 1, 2021)

StoneRoad said:


> That as maybe, but it is a shorthand term within a far more complex problem.
> 
> If it helps the general public & government / officialdom understand the problem, to devise ways and means to solve the climate emergency plus actually actively doing something towards the solution(s) ...
> 
> Then I'm all for it !


It certainly helps Governments and the people who own them to offload the problem...


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## magneze (Nov 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You
> 
> 
> For all those people who find it more convenient to bother you with their question rather than to Google it for themselves.
> ...


Doesn't work. 🤷‍♂️ Still unclear what you mean by 'actual economics'. I'm not an economics student so was hoping for something a bit more concrete.


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## StoneRoad (Nov 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> It certainly helps Governments and the people who own them to offload the problem...



Quite agree !

Initially there was far too much denial that there was even a problem.
Then too much shillly-shallying about what to do, [looking at 7rump here]
And despite the Paris Agreement in 2015, far too little has been done at the government level.
[Russia, China and India, for example are doing nowhere near enough to rein in their use of fossil fuels.]

It makes me quite depressed to realise that so many people, especially those who could be are in a position to help solve the climate emergency are doing the "head in the sand" & "I'm all right, Jack" manoeuvres  ...


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## Humberto (Nov 1, 2021)

Just to speak to that, I've seen it mentioned in a few places, and recently here:

"In 2004, the advertising company Ogilvy & Mather, working for the oil giant BP, took this blame-shifting a step further by inventing the personal carbon footprint. It was a useful innovation, but it also had the effect of diverting political pressure from the producers of fossil fuels to consumers. The oil companies didn’t stop there. The most extreme example I’ve seen was a 2019 speech by the chief executive of the oil company Shell, Ben van Beurden. He instructed us to “eat seasonally and recycle more”, and publicly berated his chauffeur for buying a punnet of strawberries in January."









						Capitalism is killing the planet – it’s time to stop buying into our own destruction | George Monbiot
					

Instead of focusing on ‘micro consumerist bollocks’ like ditching our plastic coffee cups, we must challenge the pursuit of wealth and level down, not up




					www.theguardian.com


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## 8ball (Nov 1, 2021)

magneze said:


> Doesn't work.



Still on IE? 
Give Wikipedia a go....

What I am saying is that the book, as far as I can see, is offering a framework for asking certain kinds of questions, esp. in terms of development planning, because current priorities are not in line with either immediate or long-term human wellbeing, and from what I have seen, that bit is done well.

What it doesn't seem to do is answer any questions about what any of this would look like.  I'm not sure whether it is actually trying to (Wikipedia's entry on it suggests that it is not), but if not then the title and blurb strike me as a little dishonest.  Saying that economics is broken (however well you say it), and saying what you would prefer economics to prioritise, isn't in itself a new kind of economics.

Now, I'm not an economist either, but I'm familiar with what economics discussions broadly look like.  For example, Raworth talks about growth not being a prime driver for established economies, but remaining necessary for developing economies, yet there are no mentions on the controls on capital movement necessary to achieve such a state of affairs in this kind of two-tier setup <is cross-boundary trading of shares and derivatives allowed to happen?>.  It seems to skip over the Government controls on resource use that would seem necessary in more developed (non-growth) regions too.  I'm also not clear on whether strongly negative interest rates would be necessary in order to afford to, say, buy a house in one of the richer countries once the previous problems have presumably been solved, and who could be expected to grant a loan in such a case, and whether further levers would be used to destroy the resultant money released into the economy etc. (if thinking in terms of 'steady state' type economic theory, and I'm unclear on whether that is the idea either).

Even very basic things like how prices are set seem to be glossed over.  I'm not sure whether it means we should assume that things generally stay as they are if something is not mentioned.

Etc.

But I haven't read all of it, like I said, so happy to be corrected.  I looked at some videos where the author talks about the subject and haven't found anything to change my impression.


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## magneze (Nov 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> Still on IE?
> Give Wikipedia a go....
> 
> What I am saying is that the book, as far as I can see, is offering a framework for asking certain kinds of questions, esp. in terms of development planning, because current priorities are not in line with either immediate or long-term human wellbeing, and from what I have seen, that bit is done well.
> ...


Thanks for the detailed answer. I've got to finish it myself actually. If it contained the detail you're looking for then it'd probably be 10 times longer and as you said earlier, that's probably not the point. It's more - at a high level here's how you think about things differently in terms of economics. I also agree that it's a great takedown of the current orthodoxy.


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## Humberto (Nov 1, 2021)

Tax the rich and throw money at alleviating as much as we can as quickly as we can. $Trillions, whatever it takes. Incentives here, help there.


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## 8ball (Nov 1, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Tax the rich and throw money at alleviating as much as we can as quickly as we can. $Trillions, whatever it takes. Incentives here, help there.



Would be interesting to know how much wealth that would liberate in reality.

Regardless, I lean more towards a much greater proportion of the spoils going
directly to workers as opposed to taxing the rich and trusting Governments to equitably distribute things later. 

Those workers will still be taxed, so it’s still more funds in the pot.


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## hash tag (Nov 2, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Just to speak to that, I've seen it mentioned in a few places, and recently here:
> 
> "In 2004, the advertising company Ogilvy & Mather, working for the oil giant BP, took this blame-shifting a step further by inventing the personal carbon footprint. It was a useful innovation, but it also had the effect of diverting political pressure from the producers of fossil fuels to consumers. The oil companies didn’t stop there. The most extreme example I’ve seen was a 2019 speech by the chief executive of the oil company Shell, Ben van Beurden. He instructed us to “eat seasonally and recycle more”, and publicly berated his chauffeur for buying a punnet of strawberries in January."
> 
> ...


Just read this in the rag " our survival depends on disobedience".


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## stavros (Nov 16, 2021)

I'd like to see a proper public education campaign on cars idling. Idling already breaks the law, but I think few know that, and fewer still know why. It's a small element of even the transport footprint, let alone the whole country, yet it'd help engender that "every little helps" mentality we're going to need.


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## StoneRoad (Nov 16, 2021)

Not just cars, but buses, waggons and railway locomotives all contribute to the pollution from this "idling" problem.

I must admit that a few years ago various railway depots had problems with certain locos, if they were stopped to appease the neighbours, getting them to restart on demand was, shall we say, a bit difficult ! I think it was Bescot that had several locos coupled together shunting around the yard - which wasn't that bad an idea, as it stopped the points freezing ...


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## LDC (Nov 16, 2021)

stavros said:


> I'd like to see a proper public education campaign on cars idling. Idling already breaks the law, but I think few know that, and fewer still know why. It's a small element of even the transport footprint, let alone the whole country, yet it'd help engender that "every little helps" mentality we're going to need.



Honestly I think were at the stage where _nearly all _private cars need very quickly phasing out. Alongside a massive investment in public transport infrastructure, subsidized bus and rail tickets (inc. free passes for students, the unemployed, etc.), community car clubs, free bike schemes, home working, etc. And yes some exceptions for rural usage, people with special needs, those that have to have one for work, etc. but generally 95% or so of private car ownership needs to go.

I mean never going to happen, but think it needs to and should. (It would also not take that long for the benefits to involve lessening of some chronic health issues and the burden of them on the NHS.) And imagine the example it would set to the 'developing world' in terms of 'sacrifice' we're making. It would also show that it's best for some of them to entirely skip the car culture private ownership stage of development and go straight to (or stay with) the mass free/cheap public transport, similar to how much of the world jumped from no phone to mobiles without the wired phone network we had for decades.


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## hash tag (Nov 16, 2021)

Cars will be around for the forseeable, in any event are they the biggest polluter? Electric cars just shuffle the problem from one area to another.
What's the biggest issue; cruise liners, private mega yachts, private jets and or helicopters, space tourists, delivery vehicles?


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## StoneRoad (Nov 16, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Cars will be around for the forseeable, in any event are they the biggest polluter? Electric cars just shuffle the problem from one area to another.
> What's the biggest issue; cruise liners, private mega yachts, private jets and or helicopters, space tourists, delivery vehicles?


None of them.
If you are talking about a serious reduction in carbon emissions.
In 2014, electricity generation produced 44% of them ...




ClCh - or Capture ? par StoneRoad2013, on ipernity

For the past few years I've been picking up snippets of general information about the subject of climate change - and COP26 brought a lot of graphics out of the woodwork. I've grabbed a few to study. The above was just one of around 50 that I've found to be the most interesting.


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## stavros (Nov 17, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I mean never going to happen, but think it needs to and should.


This is why I aimed relatively low with the anti-idling idea. This is something I can see the current government getting behind, although some there might dismiss it as too big state. The only negative that some may perceive is that keeping the engine running prevents the car getting cold whilst waiting. I believe this theory has been well and truly debunked for all the most common lengths of time spent waiting in a car, that is, under half an hour.

Otherwise the driver saves money on fuel, they themselves breath cleaner air, and so do all those around the vehicle.


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## Artaxerxes (Nov 17, 2021)

Do not encourage pupils to join climate protests, says draft DfE strategy
					

Document says it would not be appropriate for schools to encourage children to join campaigns




					www.theguardian.com


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## 8ball (Nov 17, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Do not encourage pupils to join climate protests, says draft DfE strategy
> 
> 
> Document says it would not be appropriate for schools to encourage children to join campaigns
> ...



Any thoughts?


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## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> Any thoughts?


I would have been shocked and horrified if the DfE had said it was OK for kids to demonstrate in school time. Let's hope enough school kids ignore their guidance, and then acquire a habit of political disobedience.


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## stavros (Nov 20, 2021)

Was there evidence of any schools encouraging such demos? I'd have thought they should encourage the sort of critical thought which leads to that sort of action, without necessarily endorsing the action itself.


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## StoneRoad (Nov 20, 2021)

I can see, in my minds eye, a Giles Cartoon.

Boss, looking out of window at a protest march by school children, telling some lackey / secretary to make a note of the ringleaders, in case they were to be so ill-advised at to apply to him for a job in the future.

However, I want children to develop their critical thinking skills to the point at which such demonstrations would occur.


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## Artaxerxes (Nov 22, 2021)

Whats so depressing is that Britains policies are just so fucking staid compared to many other countries.

Italy isn't fucking about with slight grants









						Italy offering to pay full cost of upgrading to green homes - plus a bonus | ITV News
					

The Italian government says CO2 emissions from home heating fell sharply in the first eight months of this year- our Europe Editor James Mates explores why. | ITV National News




					www.itv.com


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## Chilli.s (Nov 22, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Whats so depressing is that Britains policies are just so fucking staid compared to many other countries.
> 
> Italy isn't fucking about with slight grants
> 
> ...


That sounds like what Insulate Britain are asking for


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## Artaxerxes (Dec 16, 2021)

Guys,it's been done


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## Artaxerxes (Dec 23, 2021)

Rockets, notably carbon neutral


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## hash tag (Dec 23, 2021)

From the government that reduced tax on internal flights


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## stavros (Dec 23, 2021)

Led by the man who flew a private plane from Glasgow to London when leaving a climate conference.


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## StoneRoad (Dec 23, 2021)

stavros said:


> Led by the man who flew a private plane from Glasgow to London when leaving a climate conference.


to get back in time for a slap-up meal with party funders ...


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## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 23, 2021)

Once the rocket has left UK airspace it's emissions won't count, so most of the journey will be carbon neutral. Newquay airport is the best choice of location as it's nearly in the Atlantic anyway and it won't take long to reach international air space.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 23, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Rockets, notably carbon neutral




You may scoff, but Green is Shapps' middle name.

Or one of his names at any rate.


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## stavros (Mar 10, 2022)

No clip or link, because of the paywall, but I saw someone had written in the FT about people slowing down on the motorway to save fuel, and thus "stick it to Putin". It doesn't sound like a terrible idea from an environmental perspective either, although even if it was enacted it wouldn't be observed or properly policed.


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## hash tag (Mar 10, 2022)

We get about 2% of our oil from Russia I believe (or did). Yet nobody gives a toss about the shit about buying oil from Saudi with its appalling human rights abuses and bombing the life out of Yemen with our tanks and our bombs, and our planes.....


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## StoneRoad (Mar 11, 2022)

The cost of diesel has sky-rocketed, at least partially because some 12% [?] of it comes from Russia.

Guy who works for me passes a filling station that already has a reputation for price gouging [as they are the only obvious one for many miles on a cross-country trunk road]. A couple of days ago, he says that the price was £1.62/l but on the way home, about 8 hours later, it was £1.78/l ... Even the guy in the village isn't that grabby.

So glad I'm not still doing the 85 miles a day commute that I was when I worked in the middle of Newcastle.
I'm going to check if any of my team can share transport. But I don't think so, as I'm pretty sure they all live in different directions.
And this area doesn't have much public transport, as an alternative. The main Bus & Railway routes both run in the valley bottom, East / West alongside the Tyne.

Currently wondering if working a four-day week is an option to cut out one day's travelling ?


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## spring-peeper (Mar 18, 2022)

This is the moron who is in charge of Ontario..



.. and the reason for his flip-flop



> Justin Trudeau and Doug Ford were in Alliston, Ont., on Wednesday to formally announce the $131.6 million each government has committed to spend on upgrades at a Honda manufacturing plant that will eventually build the 2023 CR-V and CR-V Hybrid vehicles.
> 
> Both leaders said the plan would help ensure good local auto sector jobs into the future.
> 
> ...





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/honda-alliston-ontario-1.6386489


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## stavros (Jul 15, 2022)

Badenoch is apparently the only candidate for PM who hasn't said she'd keep the 2050 net zero target, although whether that's important depends on whether you think the other would keep their promises.


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## Artaxerxes (Jul 15, 2022)

stavros said:


> Badenoch is apparently the only candidate for PM who hasn't said she'd keep the 2050 net zero target, although whether that's important depends on whether you think the other would keep their promises.



"We promise to reduce emissions by x amount" has been the promise for years and it has been missed, over and over and over again.


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## stavros (Jul 16, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> "We promise to reduce emissions by x amount" has been the promise for years and it has been missed, over and over and over again.


I'd love it if she framed it as, "None of my fellow wankers will fulfill their pledges, so why bother?", but I doubt that's her intention.

2050 isn't very high on the personal agenda of most Tory members.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2022)

stavros said:


> I'd love it if she framed it as, "None of my fellow wankers will fulfill their pledges, so why bother?", but I doubt that's her intention.
> 
> 2050 isn't very high on the personal agenda of most Tory members.


Yeh they lose interest after the great tory cull of 2027


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## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2022)

hash tag said:


> We get about 2% of our oil from Russia I believe (or did). Yet nobody gives a toss about the shit about buying oil from Saudi with its appalling human rights abuses and bombing the life out of Yemen with our tanks and our bombs, and our planes.....


The former colonial power in Yemen should step in and mediate an end to the slaughter


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## ska invita (Jul 16, 2022)

stavros said:


> So what policies should be introduced, at any level of government?


Theres aso the 1 million Climate Jobs proposal which has a lot of union backing





						Climate Jobs: Building a workforce for the climate emergency
					

The report Climate Jobs: Building a workforce for the climate emergency was produced by the Campaign against Climate Change trade union group. You can find out more about the work of the trade union group and how you can get involved here. Any trade union members are welcome to attend the online...



					www.campaigncc.org
				



dont think i mentioned it on this thread but have done before elsewhere

identifies areas where work is needed, but its also about moving workers from one polluting sector and reskilling them to work in greener sectors


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## stavros (Jul 24, 2022)

It won't be front and centre of the debate, but I would hope someone would quiz Sunak and Truss on their climate and more general environmental policies in the next few weeks.


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## 8ball (Jul 25, 2022)

stavros said:


> It won't be front and centre of the debate, but I would hope someone would quiz Sunak and Truss on their climate and more general environmental policies in the next few weeks.



I don’t think those with a vote on the matter will give a toss, but it’s an opportunity to ask a few questions.


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## stavros (Jul 25, 2022)

8ball said:


> I don’t think those with a vote on the matter will give a toss.


A lot of them do remember that asteroid around 65m years ago though.

I had thought that the Tories would shy away from a big push on insulation now to prepare for next winter, as it'd look to some like kowtowing to the protestors. However there is now a tangible benefit to their voter base of doing so now, "sticking it to Putin". I think they could do it, but I don't expect them to, whoever wins.


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## StakerOne (Aug 26, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Degrowth or some such similar conservation of all resources is the key, it is completely at odds with most of capitalism/economics that values growth over everything. And a radical shake up of transport and housing. Then it's all golden


I can't see how any government would wind things back in the way of growth and remain popular with voters and deep down surely you know it would be done in such a way that only working class people get fucked over as always. 

This should be explored more:

Dumping iron at sea can bury carbon for centuries, study shows - I'm told it's cheap compared to everything else so we should really give it a go.


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## Signal 11 (Aug 26, 2022)

> Ocean fertilization field experiments show no consensus on the effi-
> cacy of iron fertilization (Boyd et al., 2007; Smetacek et al., 2012).
> Modelling studies estimate between 15 ppm and less than 100 ppm
> drawdown of CO2 from the atmosphere over 100 years (Zeebe and
> ...





			https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/ipcc_wg3_ar5_chapter6.pdf
		


More readable article here: Marine geoengineering: a dangerous distraction from real climate action | One Earth
And an older one with more details: RealClimate: Thin Soup and a Thin Story


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## 8ball (Aug 26, 2022)

stavros said:


> A lot of them do remember that asteroid around 65m years ago though.
> 
> I had thought that the Tories would shy away from a big push on insulation now to prepare for next winter, as it'd look to some like kowtowing to the protestors. However there is now a tangible benefit to their voter base of doing so now, "sticking it to Putin". I think they could do it, but I don't expect them to, whoever wins.



They are and were doing stuff re: insulation when IB got started.  I’m wondering whether some of that has been derailed by political pride.


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## stavros (Aug 26, 2022)

8ball said:


> They are and were doing stuff re: insulation when IB got started.  I’m wondering whether some of that has been derailed by political pride.


I think I remember hearing there are issues with sourcing the necessary materials at the moment, from China in particular.

Whether there's an issue of fewer skilled workers to do it, post-Brexit, I don't know.


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## stavros (Oct 28, 2022)

An interesting piece here from the UN environment representative, saying in her native Denmark there's an app telling people when the renewable share of the energy mix is at its highest. She uses the example of doing the washing then, and I can think of a number of other things that can be timed appropriately.


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## Karl Masks (Oct 28, 2022)

Wait, Therese Coffey is not environment secretary?

so that's three things I depend on she's fucked over


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## 8ball (Oct 29, 2022)

stavros said:


> An interesting piece here from the UN environment representative, saying in her native Denmark there's an app telling people when the renewable share of the energy mix is at its highest. She uses the example of doing the washing then, and I can think of a number of other things that can be timed appropriately.



Filth!


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## Leafster (Oct 29, 2022)

stavros said:


> An interesting piece here from the UN environment representative, saying in her native Denmark there's an app telling people when the renewable share of the energy mix is at its highest. She uses the example of doing the washing then, and I can think of a number of other things that can be timed appropriately.


I used to follow a twitter account which would tweet twice a day to suggest the best time to use energy-hungry appliances in the UK to minimise CO2 emissions. 

It seems to have disappeared off twitter which would explain why I haven't received any tweets for ages.


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## stavros (Oct 29, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I used to follow a twitter account which would tweet twice a day to suggest the best time to use energy-hungry appliances in the UK to minimise CO2 emissions.
> 
> It seems to have disappeared off twitter which would explain why I haven't received any tweets for ages.


There is the live dashboard, although it's not as simple to interpret as the Danish one sounds.


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## stavros (Nov 6, 2022)

So the National Grid do have a carbon intensity app, breaking the day down into two-hour chunks.


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## ska invita (Nov 9, 2022)

This is a good one, they expect supposedly to generate the same power as ten nuclear plants

Solar panels on all car parks with 80+ spaces








						France Requiring Solar Panels to Cover Parking Lots by 2028
					

The solar panel mandate applies to every parking lot in the country with 80 spots or more.




					jalopnik.com


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## stavros (Nov 10, 2022)

That looks a decent enough idea, especially if they sync it with EV charge points for the cars parked there.

Every car park I can think of in the UK is either open air, or multi-storey, with parking on the roof. So I'm not sure how it would work here. We don't tend to have those roofs.


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## ska invita (Nov 10, 2022)

stavros said:


> That looks a decent enough idea, especially if they sync it with EV charge points for the cars parked there.
> 
> Every car park I can think in the UK is either open air, or multi-storey, with parking on the roof. So I'm not sure how it would work here. We don't tend to have those roofs.


Could build roofs though!


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## Leafster (Nov 11, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Could build roofs though!


They wouldn't even have to be 'proper' roofs. There are several companies already operating in the UK which will construct solar canopies for parking areas. 

Here's one: Commercial EV Charging & Solar Carports | Renewable Energy For Businesses - Solarsense


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## Leafster (Nov 11, 2022)

On the subject of installing solar on other under used spaces, I've never understood why the planning rules don't mandate that all new builds (both residential and commercial) have to have at least some solar panels on the roofs.


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## Artaxerxes (Nov 11, 2022)

Leafster said:


> On the subject of installing solar on other under used spaces, I've never understood why the planning rules don't mandate that all new builds (both residential and commercial) have to have at least some solar panels on the roofs.




Government isn’t interested in governing and builders don’t want to spend money


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## stavros (Nov 11, 2022)

Leafster said:


> On the subject of installing solar on other under used spaces, I've never understood why the planning rules don't mandate that all new builds (both residential and commercial) have to have at least some solar panels on the roofs.


Alongside mandated and good quality insulation. Not the flammable stuff.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 11, 2022)

Leafster said:


> On the subject of installing solar on other under used spaces, I've never understood why the planning rules don't mandate that all new builds (both residential and commercial) have to have at least some solar panels on the roofs.


In france all carparks over a certain size will now have to have solar panels .


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## platinumsage (Nov 12, 2022)

Leafster said:


> On the subject of installing solar on other under used spaces, I've never understood why the planning rules don't mandate that all new builds (both residential and commercial) have to have at least some solar panels on the roofs.



That would make houses more expensive and case for solar panels in the UK isn't that strong - they provide power during the summer when we need it least (not much aircon), and fuck all in the winter when we need it most on calm days. We'd probably be better off paying for new solar farms in Morocco and importing the leccy via new undersea cables.


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## stavros (Nov 12, 2022)

I'd have thought solar panels on retailers, especially food retailers, would make sense. They have their internal lights on throughout the day, and with supermarkets the fridges and freezers run 24/7.


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## Signal 11 (Nov 12, 2022)

stavros said:


> I'd have thought solar panels on retailers, especially food retailers, would make sense.


Yes, and on houses. The troll above you is full of shit - on ignore so I'm not replying to them. I get plenty of usable power from mine in the winter. For the three worst months it doesn't match what I use, but it would be stupid to give up the rest because of that. They generate more than I use over the year.


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## Rob Ray (Nov 13, 2022)

Quite a blunt piece from a disgruntled finance sector bod in the FT today about the industry's incoherent virtue-signalling about "reaching net zero" As they note:



> Permanent capital such as equity cannot be withdrawn, it only changes hands. Real world impact: zero. And with traded asset classes, the Institutional Investors Group on Climate Change’s demand for total industry alignment is a fallacy. If I’ve sold my oil shares, the buyer of them is now misaligned.


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## WouldBe (Nov 13, 2022)

Leafster said:


> On the subject of installing solar on other under used spaces, I've never understood why the planning rules don't mandate that all new builds (both residential and commercial) have to have at least some solar panels on the roofs.


Something that should have been done when Cameron changed the planning rules.


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## WouldBe (Nov 13, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> That would make houses more expensive


It would add a few thousand which would be spread over the life of the mortgage which would workout as peanuts. Also has the advantage of reducing household bills.


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## Signal 11 (Dec 25, 2022)

New geoengineering grift. Trying to sell "cooling credits" for releasing sulphur dioxide into the upper atmosphere.









						A startup says it’s begun releasing particles into the atmosphere, in an effort to tweak the climate
					

Make Sunsets is already attempting to earn revenue for geoengineering, a move likely to provoke widespread criticism.




					www.technologyreview.com


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## Signal 11 (Dec 27, 2022)

Government announces Passivhaus standards to be adopted in Scotland



> ALL newly built homes in Scotland will need to conform to an innovative green building standard championed by a Labour MSP, under plans announced by the Scottish Government.
> [...]
> The Passivhaus standards create ultra-low energy homes which aim to minimise the need to heat and cool buildings.
> [...]
> Net Zero Minister Patrick Harvie said the Scottish Government would fast-track the process of adopting the standards in law by using secondary legislation and bypassing the lengthy process of taking a member's bill through Holyrood.


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## stavros (Jan 2, 2023)

I saw a TV advert from the government yesterday, advising us on how we can save energy. I seem to remember that Truss et al dismissed this idea as being "nanny state-ish", so Sunak must now must be quite high on her communist scale now.


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## WouldBe (Jan 2, 2023)

Signal 11 said:


> Government announces Passivhaus standards to be adopted in Scotland


About time. Should be everywhere.


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## stavros (Jan 3, 2023)

France introduces law compelling fast food outlets to give proper plates and cutlery, rather than the single-use stuff.


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## 8ball (Jan 4, 2023)

stavros said:


> France introduces law compelling fast food outlets to give proper plates and cutlery, rather than the single-use stuff.



Might be a good climate change policy for Greece to adopt the opposite law.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2023)

stavros said:


> France introduces law compelling fast food outlets to give proper plates and cutlery, rather than the single-use stuff.


finally France catches up with Wimpy.


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## Koknbul (Yesterday at 11:09 PM)

I'd have to agree with George' view on climate change, we are just messing with nature too much & in the bigger picture it won't matter long term, humans can't save the planet, better we focus in on saving ourselves instead!


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## editor (Today at 10:53 AM)

Koknbul said:


>



Either make a point and explain the video or stop posting.


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