# How are we going to get rid of Kate Hoey



## ash (Apr 21, 2017)

Considering her Brexit  stance and the pictures of her on the boat with Farage-  who is  planning to use the election to get rid??? She's been re-selected.
The Tories won't get in at Vauxhall so should  Labour voters use their to vote get KATE out. The obvious party to get her out are the lib dems but  that's Tim 'homophobia' Farron. What would you do??


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## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

Let's see a poll, send her on malaysian or digging canals on south georgia


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## CH1 (Apr 22, 2017)

George Turner (@georgenturner) | Twitter must be worthy of consideration. Seems strong on planing ad regeneration - and remaining.


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 22, 2017)

Supersoak her with finest bin juice, then let loose a vulpine flash mob


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## Beetlebum (Apr 22, 2017)

The Tory vote in Vauxhall has actually been building over the last few elections.  Last time they got 27 percent of the vote. 

Still an awful long way back and a long shot  but if you are looking for an "anyone but Hoey" vote that's the way to go.


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## Jesterburger (Apr 23, 2017)

ash said:


> Considering her Brexit  stance and the pictures of her on the boat with Farage-  who is  planning to use the election to get rid??? She's been re-selected.
> The Tories won't get in at Vauxhall so should  Labour voters use their to vote get KATE out. The obvious party to get her out are the lib dems but  that's Tim 'homophobia' Farron. What would you do??



I'm not a big fan of Tim Farron, but he has consistently voted in favour of gay rights over the last few years and has finally come out and said he doesn't think being gay is a sin. The local candidate, George Turner, is a decent housing campaigner and seems like a nice chap.

George Turner Our Candidate for Parliament - The Vauxhall Liberal Democrats

Seeing as Labour haven't been able to deselect her I think the LibDems are the best choice - voting for yet another Tory will just bolster the Hard Brexit tory government.


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## Beetlebum (Apr 23, 2017)

Betfair actually have the LibDems as second favourites ,  albeit a long way behind odds on Hoey. 

That's quite remarkable when you consider they came fourth only two years ago.


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## angusmcfangus (Apr 23, 2017)

Thought when I seen thread title I was about to be banned from urban, given we share the same surname!


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2017)

ash said:


> Considering her Brexit  stance and the pictures of her on the boat with Farage-  who is  planning to use the election to get rid??? She's been re-selected.
> The Tories won't get in at Vauxhall so should  Labour voters use their to vote get KATE out. The obvious party to get her out are the lib dems but  that's Tim 'homophobia' Farron. What would you do??




Although I'm not in Hoey's constituency, I have been watching the "fun and games" as elements of her constituency party have maneuvered to make her tenure untenable, including emphasising the whole Brexit shambles over the decades of dedicated constituency work she's done.  Bear in mind that there are members of her CLP looking at her seat covetously, and that most of them doing so are Progress members.


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## Beetlebum (Apr 23, 2017)

Even though she supported Brexit and is pro hunting I don't think she is especially right wing overall. ...


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## Dr. Furface (Apr 23, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> Even though she supported Brexit and is pro hunting I don't think she is especially right wing overall. ...


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## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2017)

It was the way she supported Brexit. She did it from the right. Going on about immigration.

She was one of the few Labour MPs who voted against Labour amendment to give gaurentee for existing EU people to stay. That's right wing imo.

MPs condemned for voting against guaranteeing EU citizens' right after Brexit


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## RoyReed (Apr 23, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> Even though she supported Brexit and is pro hunting I don't think she is especially right wing overall. ...


She's in favour of grammar schools and voted against a wholly elected house of lords. And she's voted against a right to remain for EU nationals living in the UK.


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## ash (Apr 23, 2017)

I agree that she has been a solid approachable constituency MP. When my partner wrote to as many MPs and Lords as possible to express his concern prior to the WRB going through she actually phoned him up out of the blue and listened seeming sympathetic and aware.
The fox hunting thing has always been a wierd idiosyncrasy that I could live with but not Brexit especially as her constituancy is so pro Remain. From what I can see the lib dem candidate looks quite sound. 






ViolentPanda said:


> Although I'm not in Hoey's constituency, I have been watching the "fun and games" as elements of her constituency party have maneuvered to make her tenure untenable, including emphasising the whole Brexit shambles over the decades of dedicated constituency work she's done.  Bear in mind that there are members of her CLP looking at her seat covetously, and that most of them doing so are Progress members.


agree


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## Beetlebum (Apr 23, 2017)

RoyReed said:


> She's in favour of grammar schools and voted against a wholly elected house of lords. And she's voted against a right to remain for EU nationals living in the UK.


 
If it was me it would be last of the three that is the biggest issue. I'm a brexiteer and a Tory voter but i passionately feel those already here should be allowed to stay. 

But it's not up to me.


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## CH1 (Apr 26, 2017)

Huffington Post have spreadsheet on voting tactically.
HOW TO VOTE TO STOP THE TORIES

They advise Lib Dem in Vauxhall.


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## tim (May 1, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> Supersoak her with finest bin juice, then let loose a vulpine flash mob



I fear that in reality the Jack Boot will be on the other foot.







In the next few weeks she'll be sending her packs out to cleanse her constituency of lowlife like you. They don't call her "Duterte" Hoey for nothing!


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## DaveCinzano (May 1, 2017)

tim said:


> I fear that in reality the Jack Boot will be on the other foot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If she's not careful she's going to be facing _radicalised foxes_ wearing bomb pelts


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## tim (May 1, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> If she's not careful she's going to be facing _radicalised foxes_ wearing bomb pelts


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## CH1 (May 1, 2017)

tim said:


>



That would be "friendly fire". If anyone is even more annoying than Katie it is Dr Fox.

The NHS presumably spend thousands training this dilettante fantasist as a GP. He then tried a spot of army medial service before finding a more worthy public calling in a safe West Country Tory parliamentary seat. Since then he has distinguished himself by getting involved in discussions with the Sri Lankan government regarding their genocidal civil war - much to the disgust of Tamils everywhere.

Despite his loose canon activities in opposition Call Me Dave appointed him Minister of Defence in 2010, but he had to resign because his friend Mr Werrity was accompanying him on foreign trips for no apparent reason.

What better person could we have to sort out British trade post Brexit?


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## redsquirrel (May 1, 2017)

CH1 said:


> Huffington Post have spreadsheet on voting tactically.
> HOW TO VOTE TO STOP THE TORIES
> 
> They advise Lib Dem in Vauxhall.


A vote in favour of the bedroom tax, the increase in VAT, the tripling of HE fees. Lovely.


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## CH1 (May 1, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> A vote in favour of the bedroom tax, the increase in VAT, the tripling of HE fees. Lovely.


Their comment was directed at getting a less rigidly pro Brexit MP - not re-runnng the 2011 budget 6 years too late.


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## redsquirrel (May 1, 2017)

Yeah, just ignore all that history. What does people being pushed into poverty, the transfer of wealth from poor to rich, the attacks on the welfare state matter compared to supporting the EU. You fucking mug.


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## CH1 (May 1, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Yeah, just ignore all that history. What does people being pushed into poverty, the transfer of wealth from poor to rich, the attacks on the welfare state matter compared to supporting the EU. You fucking mug.


According to this article in the Independent all three Lambeth MPs failed to vote against the latest Welfare cuts Bill in July 2015.

Apparently pro EU Labour and anti EU Labour = Tory welfare cuts


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## redsquirrel (May 1, 2017)

Have I advocated a Labour vote?

That said while I disagree with it quite strongly, there's at least a certain logic to the position advocated by Jeff Robinson


Jeff Robinson said:


> I hear where you're coming from, but I can't help but think that you're not seeing the wood for the trees. This election is not about the individual candidates, its about the leadership of Corbyn vs the leadership of May. A Labour loss (the likely outcome admittedly) will be seen overwhelmingly as the failure of the Corbyn leadership (not of the anti-Corbyn MPs) and this in turn will be seen as a failure of socialist/social democratic ideas and the incontrovertible reality of neo-liberalism/TINA.


There's no such reason for voting LibDem. The only reason for voting LibDems is because you support the current neo-liberal agenda but want to pretend that you're really a _progressive. _Or that you're just really fucking naive.


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## lefteri (May 1, 2017)

10 Yeah fuck voting LibDem

20 goto 10


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## Winot (May 1, 2017)

The best way to achieve a socialist utopia is to call wavering voters fucking mug neoliberals. That's why the left has been so successful at winning elections in the UK.


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## Gramsci (May 1, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Have I advocated a Labour vote?
> 
> That said while I disagree with it quite strongly, there's at least a certain logic to the position advocated by Jeff Robinson
> 
> There's no such reason for voting LibDem. The only reason for voting LibDems is because you support the current neo-liberal agenda but want to pretend that you're really a _progressive. _Or that you're just really fucking naive.



As I know CH1 I think you are being a bit harsh. Whilst CH1 is a lifelong liberal rather than a socialist he's hardly one of the more recent "Orange book" liberals who have gone down the road of accepting neo liberalism. In fact his politics have put him to the left of the "Progress" dominated Lambeth Labour party.

I think what CH1 is saying is that the LD CA candidate has good track record and is worth supporting.

Hoey is a maverick. Her views on immigration are not that different from UKIP. In London that's not a view that is supported. Including working class Londoners.


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## redsquirrel (May 1, 2017)

How exactly does someone who supports - the increase in VAT, the implementation of the bedroom tax, the tripling of HE fees etc - have a good record? If he had a good record this prick (Turner not CH1) would have left the LDs. He didn't so he supports those policies and if you vote for him you're supporting them.

There was no revolution against the Orange bookers when the coalition was started, there wasn't even any opposition, the whole party signed up and then proceeded to defend the attacks on the poor and the welfare state. 

Hoey is scum, no doubt about that, but so is every LD politician/member.


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## Gramsci (May 1, 2017)

Winot said:


> The best way to achieve a socialist utopia is to call wavering voters fucking mug neoliberals. That's why the left has been so successful at winning elections in the UK.



So far what Corbyn is advocating is far from a socialist utopia. Just imo pretty moderate proposals. For example rights for private renters. 

The Liberal Democratic party helped the last Tory government. They are now positioning themselves as the pro EU party. Imo the LD leadership are neo liberals.


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## Gramsci (May 1, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> How exactly does someone who supports - the increase in VAT, the implementation of the bedroom tax, the tripling of HE fees etc - have a good record? If he had a good record this prick (Turner not CH1) would have left the LDs. He didn't so he supports those policies and if you vote for him you're supporting them.
> 
> There was no revolution against the Orange bookers when the coalition was started, there wasn't even any opposition, the whole party signed up and then proceeded to defend the attacks on the poor and the welfare state.
> 
> Hoey is scum, no doubt about that, but so is every LD politician/member.



Not disagreeing with you.

It's that I know CH1 and he's sound.

The Brexit issue in London is not the same as other parts of the country. It's not just Progress Lambeth Labour who are pissed off with Hoey. Though they have been trying to use her stance on Brexit to undermine her. Why I'm in mixed minds about this. I get impression some in the Progress Lambeth Labour party would like her to come a cropper in this election. She is total maverick. On housing she has been a thorn in the side of the Lambeth Council (all 100% Blairites) particularly her support for Council housing. Against there neo liberal "regeneration" projects and selling off of housing.


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## Winot (May 1, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> So far what Corbyn is advocating is far from a socialist utopia. Just imo pretty moderate proposals. For example rights for private renters.
> 
> The Liberal Democratic party helped the last Tory government. They are now positioning themselves as the pro EU party. Imo the LD leadership are neo liberals.



That wasn't the point I was making. I was talking about how personalised rhetoric isn't the best way to persuade people to vote for the party you support.

I agree with many of Corbyn's policies, including the one you mention. In order to implement them he needs to get into power. That means persuading the voters of the UK to vote for him, including people who voted Tory.


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## Gramsci (May 1, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> How exactly does someone who supports - the increase in VAT, the implementation of the bedroom tax, the tripling of HE fees etc - have a good record? If he had a good record this prick (Turner not CH1) would have left the LDs. He didn't so he supports those policies and if you vote for him you're supporting them.
> 
> There was no revolution against the Orange bookers when the coalition was started, there wasn't even any opposition, the whole party signed up and then proceeded to defend the attacks on the poor and the welfare state.
> 
> Hoey is scum, no doubt about that, but so is every LD politician/member.



On local Lambeth issues the small number of LD Doors were to the left of the Lambeth Labour Progress dominated Council. They all lost there seats when the electorate punished the LDs nationally for stance on tuition fees and collaboration with Tories. A loss imo. It was only the LD Doors who would question the Lambeth Labour Blairite leadership. As any Labour Cold who did so (Cllr Rachel for example) was expelled from Labour group.

The Alice in Wonderland world of Lambeth politics.


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## Gramsci (May 1, 2017)

Winot said:


> That wasn't the point I was making. I was talking about how personalised rhetoric isn't the best way to persuade people to vote for the party you support.
> 
> I agree with many of Corbyn's policies, including the one you mention. In order to implement them he needs to get into power. That means persuading the voters of the UK to vote for him, including people who voted Tory.



This is bigger issue. Politics are fragmented. As in France. Building a centre coalition as Blair did alienated many people. Those who support Corbyn won't just go away once the right of the party have got rid of him. Which they will. Neither will the poor showing of UKIP mean the that there attitudes will go away. 

I don't see a future for so called centre politics. 

I don't have the answers. What I see is possible is that this country could get a lot nastier. More divided with more social conflict. After all no one thought post war this country would have riots as happened in 80s.


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## redsquirrel (May 2, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I don't see a future for so called centre politics.


I don't see centre party politics going away in the short/medium term. For all the "upsets" in France Macron is likely to win the presidency and I'd be surprised if either the FN or the hard left took more than a handful of seats at following assembly elections.

There are almost certain to be moves within the Labour party to move back to the centre post GE, Obama is making sure that any move to the left by the Democrats is stomped. And of course liberal/centre parties are more than willing to work together to stop any real alternative - see Spain, Germany, the Netherlands, etc.

While it's being challenged "centre"/liberal politics is not going to go away without a fight.


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## goldengraham (May 2, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> There are almost certain to be moves within the Labour party to move back to the centre post GE.



I'm not so sure. After a Labour wipeout Corbyn may not remain as leader, but Corbynites will likely much increase their influence over the parliamentary party, as their MPs would proportionally hold a far higher share of its 160 or so remaining seats (perhaps around one-fifth) than at present. So perhaps not Corbyn, but quite possibly Corbyn Mk II ...


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## stethoscope (May 2, 2017)

goldengraham said:


> I'm not so sure. After a Labour wipeout Corbyn may not remain as leader, but Corbynites will likely much increase their influence over the parliamentary party, as their MPs would proportionally hold a far higher share of its 160 or so remaining seats (perhaps around one-fifth) than at present. So perhaps not Corbyn, but quite possibly Corbyn Mk II ...



What? 'Corbynites' don't hold any influence over the PLP - the 'Progress'/right of the party do. When Corbyn goes, thats likely to be the end of any vaguely left shift he's tried to instill.


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## Mr Moose (May 2, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> I don't see centre party politics going away in the short/medium term. For all the "upsets" in France Macron is likely to win the presidency and I'd be surprised if either the FN or the hard left took more than a handful of seats at following assembly elections.
> 
> There are almost certain to be moves within the Labour party to move back to the centre post GE, Obama is making sure that any move to the left by the Democrats is stomped. And of course liberal/centre parties are more than willing to work together to stop any real alternative - see Spain, Germany, the Netherlands, etc.
> 
> While it's being challenged "centre"/liberal politics is not going to go away without a fight.



If it goes away it'll be replaced by low regulation, tax haven Britain with zero chance of a U-turn on any of that shit from the last six years. Thank you Brexit, the left's latest heroic own goal.


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## redsquirrel (May 2, 2017)

The "shit from the last six years" _is_ liberalism.


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## CH1 (May 2, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> The "shit from the last six years" _is_ liberalism.


I appreciate you are greatly committed to invective, but just to point out when I joined the Liberals in 1972 many were strongly into CND and Anti Apartheid - a bit like Corbyn.

Your arguments about ideological purity apply equally to the Labour Party over the whole of my lifetime (62 years FYI).

I rather regret posting here in a way - I have nothing against Kate Hoey personally - though my preference is not to leave the EU, notwithstanding that the EU is as dysfunctional as the USA, which it seems to be trying to emulate .

Final point - why lay into Obama for being a reactionary? He is out of office. Had he been like FDR - or possibly God help us Trump - he might have been able to implement more policies than just the Obamacare which Trump is trying to get rid of.


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## goldengraham (May 3, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> What? 'Corbynites' don't hold any influence over the PLP - the 'Progress'/right of the party do. When Corbyn goes, thats likely to be the end of any vaguely left shift he's tried to instill.


Maybe so now, but what I'm saying is that after the election Labour could be reduced to 160 seats or so, with most of the outgoing MPs from the right of the party. The bulk of 30 or so Corbyn-supporting Labour MPs are also in the safest Labour seats, so if you assume that they all hang on, their influence on (what's left of) the PLP will be proportionally much greater after the election than it is at present.


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## redsquirrel (May 4, 2017)

CH1 said:


> I appreciate you are greatly committed to invective, but just to point out when I joined the Liberals in 1972 many were strongly into CND and Anti Apartheid - a bit like Corbyn.
> 
> Your arguments about ideological purity apply equally to the Labour Party over the whole of my lifetime (62 years FYI).


Re the Labour party I've never said otherwise, indeed that precisely part of the reason why I probably won't be voting for them.

But I think is highly telling that you see criticism of things such as the increase in VAT, the bedroom tax, the attacks on the welfare state - measures that increase inequality and a real, significant and appalling effect on people's day to day lives as as "ideological purity", as if these are the same as some minor point of theoretical disagreement.



CH1 said:


> Final point - why lay into Obama for being a reactionary? He is out of office. Had he been like FDR - or possibly God help us Trump - he might have been able to implement more policies than just the Obamacare which Trump is trying to get rid of.


I'm not sure what you are referring to here, I only mentioned Obama on this thread as an example of attempts by liberals/"centrists" to block any move to the left. Are you denying that he was/is part of the section of the Democratic party that is doing that, that wasn't part of the section that he was/is opposed to social democratic tendency represented by Sanders?

I think he's as reactionary as any other liberal, he did implement policies, the same type of policies that for 40 years have been responsible for the rise in inequality, the attacks of the welfare state and the worsening conditions of labour.


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## CH1 (May 4, 2017)

redsquirrel You should have been around in the days of Selective Employment Tax which Labour introduced around 1968 to divert employment into manufacturing and punish the service sector for employing people. 

I remember it well - went down a treat at my barbers, who ranted about the evils of Harold Wilson whilst doing your short back and sides. And presumably happily voted for Ted Heath in 1970.

Your rant about bedroom tax etc - presumably you are blaming me because the coalition didn't crack up over such measures? 

You are right - by acquiescing in these sorts of coalition policies Clegg left the local Lib Dem parties bereft of moral standing. This played out in the local elections. Manchester and Lambeth both had viable Lib Dem opposition groups in 2010 - but by 2014 had lost every single councillor.

2. Obama - I don't know what his policies were in detail. He seemed to me to be a good man, a social liberal, but remote, distant and his charisma seemed to evaporate over time.

Do you really think that if Bernie Sanders had got in there would have been radical change? Even Trump can't get his own party to pass his stuff.

My own view is that the USA is the source of much evil. One of the reasons I like the EU is because their culture is to some extent insulated from the worst excesses of the USA by a language barrier.


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## Reiabuzz (May 5, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> but so is every LD politician/member.



What do you base that opinion on?


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## redsquirrel (May 5, 2017)

CH1 said:


> Your rant about bedroom tax etc - presumably you are blaming me because the coalition didn't crack up over such measures?
> 
> You are right - by acquiescing in these sorts of coalition policies Clegg left the local Lib Dem parties bereft of moral standing. This played out in the local elections. Manchester and Lambeth both had viable Lib Dem opposition groups in 2010 - but by 2014 had lost every single councillor.


I think LibDem members have to own these policies regardless of whether they personally supported them or not. If your a member of a political party then you can't simply say - well the nice stuff that's due to us but the nasty stuff - well that's nothing to do with me. Your party did it, in part, with your support. Now ordinary LD members don't carry the same share of the blame as those that were in the government, or even those that were councillors, but yes by being a member, and remaining one, you (general you) are supporting measures that hurt people, often vulnerable people.  



CH1 said:


> 2. Obama - I don't know what his policies were in detail. He seemed to me to be a good man, a social liberal, but remote, distant and his charisma seemed to evaporate over time.
> 
> Do you really think that if Bernie Sanders had got in there would have been radical change? Even Trump can't get his own party to pass his stuff.


Obama was a social liberal, he was also an economic one. That's why he opposes any attempt to move the Democrats to the left. As for Sanders, I don't believe radical change (or at least the radical changes I want) come from the ballot box.


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## redsquirrel (May 5, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> What do you base that opinion on?


See post above. If you're a LD member you're supporting measures that attack the working class.


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## Reiabuzz (May 5, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> See post above. If you're a LD member you're supporting measures that attack the working class.



I'm a member because they're the only possible way of putting the brakes on the Tories at this point in time. Once Labour sorts itself out and gets rid of the juvenile maniacs at their helm I'll quite possibly switch back. My personal priority is slowing the Tory scum down in their pursuit of destroying our public services. Corbyn et al can't do that, and will never be able to do it.

Who will you be voting for if you don't mind me asking?


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## redsquirrel (May 5, 2017)

How does being a member of party that was part of a government that was involved in destroying public services, increasing inequality, hurting people and in coalition with the Tories put the brakes on the Tories. You haven't even said that you'd undo such measures for christ's sake. 

Most likely won't bother. If there's a socialist candidate standing might vote for them, but that probably won't happen.


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## Winot (May 5, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> I don't believe radical change (or at least the radical changes I want) come from the ballot box.



Comes from posting on Urban, obvs.


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## Reiabuzz (May 5, 2017)

Very close. Hold your nose if you have to, but vote Lib Dem to get rid of this Brexit fuckwit.


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## RoyReed (May 6, 2017)

PaddyPower obviously don't know that UKIP aren't standing in Vauxhall as they love Hoey so much.


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## Gramsci (May 6, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> I'm a member because they're the only possible way of putting the brakes on the Tories at this point in time. Once Labour sorts itself out and gets rid of the juvenile maniacs at their helm I'll quite possibly switch back. My personal priority is slowing the Tory scum down in their pursuit of destroying our public services. Corbyn et al can't do that, and will never be able to do it.
> 
> Who will you be voting for if you don't mind me asking?



From what I've seen of Corbyn he has behaved with a great deal of dignity. He has had to go through another election to remain leader. His politics are left of centre not "juvenile".

Bringing it back to Lambeth if he goes it will be back to the Labour party run by Progress. As in Lambeth. I know several people who are active on local issues who joined (or rejoined) the Labour party because of Corbyn. Who want a left of centre Labour party. It's not much to ask imo.

redsquirrel the present LD party was in coalition with the Tories. I haven't heard any of them say that was a mistake. Not any of them argue they should go back to being a more radical party as they are when CH1 first joined.

I had someone I know going on at me about Corbyn being a poor leader. That's one argument. But there is a difference between criticising his leadership skills and his politics. It can end up, as my friend seemed to imply, the Labour party should ditch it's left wing policies as they make it unelectable. So ru saying he is a poor leader or a left of centre party is unelectable?


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## Reiabuzz (May 7, 2017)

Corbyn's not just a bad leader, he's also an arrogant fuck. Of course that comes from my colleagues in the 'London liberal media elite' or whatever the Islington residing great leader likes to characterises them as. Maybe show up for interviews Jeremy. 

People would love an alternative to the Tories. A lot in the media included. Unbelievably, Teresa fucking May is more likeable. Takes some doing.


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## CH1 (May 7, 2017)

Reiabuzz Gramsci Since I have been invoked I will respond - though as I haven't personally been a Labour Part member since 1971 I don't feel I have any moral right to go on about Corbyn's position.

I find some of Corbyn's *extreme" policies attractive - such as nuclear disarmament.

Others much more questionable - do we have any more justification in taking sides in Venezuala for example than in Syria?

Gramsci you are right in some respects about the old Liberal Party (not the current splinter group led by Steve Radford). Jeremy Thorpe was popularly known as "Bomber Thorpe" in the right wing press because he had advocated direct military action against Ian Smith's UDI regime - which regime was popular in the 1960s/70s with the likes of Enoch Powell and the Daily Mail.

Then there are the social issues - gay rights was an unpopular issue with Labour until relatively late. The Labour Gay Caucus was not formed until 1975, my memory tells me that a gay Young Liberal called Louis Eakes managed to get himself arrested in Hyde Park on a GLF demo lighting a cigarette by "Dutch shag" (i.e. conjoining your own lighted cigarette tip with your friends cigarette - both cigarettes in their appropriate mouth. The Police naturally saw this as an act of Gross Indecency and arrested Louis Eakes). That was in 1970, at which time Young Liberals were happily supporting GLF marches.

I'm pretty sure that a Labour Party Young Socialist arrested on morals charges in 1970 (for provocatively lighting a cigarette, say) would have been mocked - or even expelled as a "bourgeois deviationist"!

I would just like to add that I was having a drink with a couple of well known TUSC members in the Beehive last week. I had a very pleasant frank exchange of views with these two - and my understanding is that TUSC endorse Labour as led by Corbyn and will be campaigning for Labour rather than putting up their own candidates.

TUSC are Brexiteers too, so they don't have problems with Kate Hoey being Brexit - though they were not keen on her campaigning with Farage.

I think that the main problem for Labour is it is so internally divided that a lot of Labour members hate each other because they are in different factions. St Mark said this (Mark3:25) "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

That text is sufficiently resonant that Abraham Lincoln used it as the basis of a speech in 1858. Who am I to disagree?


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## redsquirrel (May 8, 2017)

Really you're going with the LDs as the pro-gay party, after Simon "The Straight Choice" Hughes. What crap.

Nevermind your current leader, or grand dame, Williams, views. Perfect example of LD hypocrisy.


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## CH1 (May 9, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Really you're going with the LDs as the pro-gay party, after Simon "The Straight Choice" Hughes. What crap.
> 
> Nevermind your current leader, or grand dame, Williams, views. Perfect example of LD hypocrisy.


Do you want Kate Hoey to stay - if so say so instead of all this invective.

If not who do YOU recommend?


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## Reiabuzz (May 9, 2017)

The LDs are the only chance of finally sending Hoey to the scrapyard. Vote for the Pirate Party or Greens if you like. But as you know it's utterly pointless. If you want rid of Hoey, you know what to do.


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## Reiabuzz (May 9, 2017)

The mere fact that UKIP have stood aside to give her a free run is surely enough reason to vote tactically this time.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2017)

CH1 said:


> Do you want Kate Hoey to stay - if so say so instead of all this invective.
> 
> If not who do YOU recommend?


So you're not going to address the fact that the supposedly gay friendly LibDems ran one of the most infamous homophobic campaigns in post-war British political history. 

I don't believe in electoral politics, but I'd take anyone above the LibDems


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 9, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> So you're not going to address the fact that the supposedly gay friendly LibDems ran one of the most infamous homophobic campaigns in post-war British political history.
> 
> I don't believe in electoral politics, but I'd take anyone above the LibDems



You'd take someone who campaigned with Nigel Farage to lead Britain into making the worst decision in living memory?


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2017)

Above yellow Tories, yeah I would.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 9, 2017)

Insane - did you vote remain or leave?


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Insane - did you vote remain or leave?


Someone who joined the lib-dems _after _2010 tries to interrogate someone. Marvelous.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Insane - did you vote remain or leave?


Because the EU is all that matters - nevermind the coalition gov, never mind the attacks on the poorest, the dismantling of the welfare state - which you are supporting, as long as they support the EU (currently killing people in Greece).

Leave


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 9, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Someone who joined the lib-dems _after _2010 tries to interrogate someone. Marvelous.



I'll do whatever it takes to get rid of the fucking Tories mate - if that means canvassing for the LDs in my electorate then so be it. Labour is completely and utterly finished for a decade or so after the debacle of Corbyn's 'leadership' so I've not much choice. I'm a pragmatist.


----------



## CH1 (May 9, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> So you're not going to address the fact that the supposedly gay friendly LibDems ran one of the most infamous homophobic campaigns in post-war British political history.
> 
> I don't believe in electoral politics, but I'd take anyone above the LibDems


I think you are turning that into an iconic moment - from your point of view.
I spoke to Peter Tatchell about it at the funeral of Dudley Cave, a mutual acquaintance who was a pioneer of gay rights and who died in 1999.

By 1999 Peter Tatchell was not expressing bitterness to me, although in a one to one conversation he was very free to do so.
Maybe if Peter Tatchell can get over it in 16 years you could do so in 34 years? Or is it more important -to you - to get wound up about principles than the actions and feelings of real people?


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 9, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Leave



Right. Understood then. Which electorate?


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2017)

How the fuck does voting LD (last seen in coalition gov with the Tories) in a safe Labour seat, "stop" the Tories. 

Even on it's own level your argument is nonsense.


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> I'll do whatever it takes to get rid of the fucking Tories mate - if that means canvassing for the LDs in my electorate then so be it. Labour is completely and utterly finished for a decade or so after the debacle of Corbyn's 'leadership' so I've not much choice. I'm a pragmatist.


I'm mad for change. non-stop militant change. And change simply means not having a  tory in my seat. In which case Hoey is your best bet.

You simpoy are a lib-dem. You don't have to be in that seat. Don't piggyback on anti-tory sentiments.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2017)

CH1 said:


> I think you are turning that into an iconic moment - from your point of view.
> I spoke to Peter Tatchell about it at the funeral of Dudley Cave, a mutual acquaintance who was a pioneer of gay rights and who died in 1999.
> 
> By 1999 Peter Tatchell was not expressing bitterness to me, although in a one to one conversation he was very free to do so.
> Maybe if Peter Tatchell can get over it in 16 years you could do so in 34 years? Or is it more important -to you - to get wound up about principles that the actions and feelings of real people?


Lovely, it doesn't matter, Tatchell's moved on, so should everybody else. And this is the views of the gay-friendly LDs.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 9, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> How the fuck does voting LD (last seen in coalition gov with the Tories) in a safe Labour seat, "stop" the Tories.
> 
> Even on it's own level your argument is nonsense.



The seat is far from safe. The LDs have put a heavy focus on it as winnable given Hoey's support for Brexit in an area which was nearly 80% remain. I think she's finished, finally.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2017)

Even if that is the case, how does the election of a LD "stop" the Tories? If that is your main aim you should be arguing for a Labour vote.


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> The seat is far from safe. The LDs have put a heavy focus on it as winnable given Hoey's support for Brexit in an area which was nearly 80% remain. I think she's finished, finally.


See, nothing to do with any anti-tory sentiment. Simple anti-brexit/pro-eu rage. Jesus, just say it openly, no need to hide it.


----------



## CH1 (May 9, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Lovely, it doesn't matter, Tatchell's moved on, so should everybody else. And this is the views of the gay-friendly LDs.


As it happens I think you are conflating two issues. One being the Liberal Gay rights activists wearing badges designed to "out" Peter Tatchell - a tactic he himself has threatened to use. The other being media coverage - which would have been driven by people like Kelvin McKenzie at the Sun.

Seems from your astute use of barbed remarks you are no stranger to Kelvin McKenzie tactics. Kelvin is no longer with us - one abusive public utterance too far.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 9, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> See, nothing to do with any anti-tory sentiment. Simple anti-brexit/pro-eu rage. Jesus, just say it openly, no need to hide it.



She's also voted against increasing corporation tax for big business, against support for people who can't afford their council tax in my borough, voted against the hunting ban, against euthansia for the terminally ill.. etc etc. It's not a one issue for me - Brexit has definitely galvanized me into actually trying to get rid the idiot though.


----------



## bimble (May 9, 2017)

CH1 said:


> George Turner (@georgenturner) | Twitter must be worthy of consideration. Seems strong on planing ad regeneration - and remaining.



She seems to have gone to the trouble of photo-shopping (most of) him out of a picture of herself campaigning for clean air yesterday, before posting it onto her twitter.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2017)

CH1 said:


> As kit happens I think you are conflating two issues. One being the Liberal Gay rights activists wearing badges designed to "out" Peter Tatchell - a tactic he himself has threatened to use. The other being media coverage - which would have been driven by people like Kelvin McKenzie at the Sun.
> 
> Seems from your astute use of barbed remarks you are no stranger to Kelvin McKenzie tactics. Seems Kelvin is no longer with us - one abusive public utterance too far.


That's right it was the horrible Sun that talked about "The Straight Choice" nothing to do with you.


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> She's also voted against increasing corporation tax for big business, against support for people who can't afford their council tax in my borough, voted against the hunting ban, against euthansia for the terminally ill.. etc etc. It's not a one issue for me - Brexit has definitely galvanized me into actually trying to get rid the idiot though.


So why try to pretend it's simply an anti-tory move - that logic doesn't stand up to a seconds examination. 

Your socially concerned activity before the brexit vote - when the party you are a member of were forming and imposing austerity?


----------



## CH1 (May 9, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> That's right it was the horrible Sun that talked about "The Straight Choice" nothing to do with you.


Have you got a photo?


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2017)

It's described on the wikipedia page.


> The one controversial issue that was linked to Hughes was a leaflet describing the contest as a "straight choice" between Liberal and Labour. When challenged on _Newsnight_ about it in 2006, Hughes admitted that it was "an unacceptable form of language", and "those are the sort of things that shouldn't have happened",[6] appearing to acknowledge that the slogan had acted as an inadvertent slur against Tatchell.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 9, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> So why try to pretend it's simply an anti-tory move - that logic doesn't stand up to a seconds examination.
> 
> Your socially concerned activity before the brexit vote - when the party you are a member of were forming and imposing austerity?



Of course they lost credibility as a result of the coalition. But god knows how far the Tories would have gone without the LDs slowing them down, albeit only marginally. 
They're also the only major party who was solidly pro-remain. Sorry for banging on about that. But it's an utter disgrace and I'd rather not have someone representing me in Westminster who is thick enough to not see the almighty car crash ahead.

Are you actually criticising me for becoming more politically engaged? Whether you agree with me or not? Would you prefer I sit on the sidelines bitching as I did for years?


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Of course they lost credibility as a result of the coalition. But god knows how far the Tories would have gone without the LDs slowing them down, albeit only marginally.
> They're also the only major party who was solidly pro-remain. Sorry for banging on about that. But it's an utter disgrace and I'd rather not have someone representing me in Westminster who is thick enough to not see the almighty car crash ahead.
> 
> Are you actually criticising me for becoming more politically engaged? Whether you agree with me or not? Would you prefer I sit on the sidelines bitching as I did for years?


Yes i am. Joining  the lib-dems ffs.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Of course they lost credibility as a result of the coalition. But god knows how far the Tories would have gone without the LDs slowing them down, albeit only marginally.


On which issues where the Tories slowed down? Increasing HE fees? Increasing VAT? Cutting income tax?



Reiabuzz said:


> Are you actually criticising me for becoming more politically engaged? Whether you agree with me or not? Would you prefer I sit on the sidelines bitching as I did for years?


Politically engaged with a bunch if vile hypocrites that attack the welfare state, great!


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 9, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Yes i am. Joining  the lib-dems ffs.



Are you a member of a political party - if so may I ask which one?


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Are you a member of a political party - if so may I ask which one?


No i'm not.

The lib-dems ffs. Pic *here* of tories in front of a_ defend the NHS banner.
_
At least they're in a party right?


----------



## CH1 (May 9, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> It's described on the wikipedia page.


Thanks for that. I see it was very good promotion for SIMON HUGHES. 

I see the double entendre - but not sure how that resonated on the Heygate Estate. To me this looks like a classic case of traditional Liberal "It's a two horse race" campaigning (bearing in mind there was also an independent Labour candidate who had orignally been fancied to win).

I guess in 1983 we were all more used to "Round the Horne" rather than political correctness.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 9, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> No i'm not.



I see.


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> I see.


What, exactly do _you_, a lib-dem party member after 2010, see?


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> The seat is far from safe. The LDs have put a heavy focus on it as winnable given Hoey's support for Brexit in an area which was nearly 80% remain. I think she's finished, finally.


BTW this was Vauxhall in 2015

Labour Kate Hoey 25,778 53.8 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 4.0
Conservative James Bellis 13,070 27.3 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 5.7
Green Gulnar Hasnain 3,658 7.6 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 6.0
Liberal Democrat Adrian Hyyrylainen-Trett 3,312 6.9 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 18.2

So if the LDs really do take a lot of votes of Labour they open the chance for the Tories to win, so your campaigning could do the opposite of what you supposedly want.


----------



## CH1 (May 9, 2017)

"This election is not about Brexit" say TUSC

I thought the thread was precisely about Brexit - in view of Kate Hoey's emulation of Handel's Water Music with Nigel Farage.

As regards tactical voting redsquirrel never mind taking votes off Labour - unless something is done about gentrification Vauxhall will be permanently Tory.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 9, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> BTW this was Vauxhall in 2015
> 
> Labour Kate Hoey 25,778 53.8
> 
> ...



LD will be taking a lot of votes from both. Shall we wait and see? There's a huge amount of anger out there over both parties' abject failure on Brexit. Do you live in the constituency yourself?


----------



## Southlondon (May 10, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> She's also voted against increasing corporation tax for big business, against support for people who can't afford their council tax in my borough, voted against the hunting ban, against euthansia for the terminally ill.. etc etc. It's not a one issue for me - Brexit has definitely galvanized me into actually trying to get rid the idiot though.


She also sacrificed her ministerial career when she voted against the Iraq war, joined corbyn in speaking and voting against the criminalisation of squatters, supported the short life tenants in their fight against eviction by Lambeth new labour council, for gay marriage, against ID cards, against the benefit cap, supports strong workers rights, against tuition fees. supported the tenants of the Ethelred estate when they were fighting the transfer of the estate out of council and is noted by huge numbers of residents for her accessibility, and willingness to fight their corner. Brexit is an issue that spanned the political spectrum, and without detracting from the importance of this issue, when voting for a candidate in Vauxhall weigh up the options. If Libs or greens weaken the labour vote the likely winner would be the Tories as it is in no way possible for either of them to close 20k votes for Hoey because of the strong personal vote she gets through her undeniable effective case work built up over 28 years. Then think who would you rather have negotiating Brexit cirbyn-led labour or may? 
Hoey would always be holding a minority Brexit position within the party, but her presence would help to educate the more mainstream labour politicians left and right, why swathes of labour voters were passionate leavers in the Labour heartlands further North.
She also voted against the parties call for the 2nd leadership election when the blairites tried to topple him. 
 How anyone can vote liberal knowing it was thanks to them we got Austerity, what do people think would happen if by some miracle they were king makers again? They'd jump straight back in with the Tories, tear up election promises like they did with tuition fees, and we would still get a Tory-led coalition. A Corbyn led labour government is a far more inviting proposition to me as a council tenant, and being on benefits, than another Tory or Tory/liberal coalition one, and voting for kate Hoey is a vote for a Corbyn government.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 10, 2017)

It's 12k votes, and the lib dems are well on course to overturn it. Sadly the only 'data' I have for that is by looking at the bookmakers sites which have LD and Hoey pretty much neck and neck - presumably because of her decision to campaign with noted bigot Nigel Farage last year. She, and her UKIP mates have put us in the absurd position of deciding between Teresa fucking May and the space cadet that is Jeremy Corbyn to negotiate our divorce from our main trading partner and deciding when and how to kick out the people who keep this country ticking over.

Her electorate was 80% remain and she completely ignored it. She has an atrocious voting record and has used her Twitter in the past to question why we should take any more Syrian refugees. I really do want such a person representing me in Westminster.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 10, 2017)

For some context, here are the key seats Remain are targeting. 

*Seats to attack *
*Iain Duncan Smith*
Conservative
Chingford and Woodford Green
Majority: 8,386
Campaigned for leave
Estimated vote in constituency: 51% remain

*Kate Hoey*
Labour
Vauxhall
Majority: 12,708
Campaigned for leave
Estimated vote in constituency: 78% remain

*Theresa Villiers *
Conservative
Chipping Barnet
Majority: 7,656
Campaigned for leave
Estimated vote in constituency: 59% remain

*Steve Baker*
Conservative
Wycombe
Majority: 14,856
Campaigned for leave
Estimated vote in constituency: 52% remain

*James Berry*
Conservative
Kingston and Surbiton
Majority: 2,834
Campaigned to remain, but accused of not speaking out against hard Brexit
Estimated vote in constituency: 58% remain


----------



## redsquirrel (May 10, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> For some context, here are the key seats *Remain* are targeting.


Says it all.


----------



## Gramsci (May 10, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> It's 12k votes, and the lib dems are well on course to overturn it. Sadly the only 'data' I have for that is by looking at the bookmakers sites which have LD and Hoey pretty much neck and neck - presumably because of her decision to campaign with noted bigot Nigel Farage last year. She, and her UKIP mates have put us in the absurd position of deciding between Teresa fucking May and the space cadet that is Jeremy Corbyn to negotiate our divorce from our main trading partner and deciding when and how to kick out the people who keep this country ticking over.
> 
> Her electorate was 80% remain and she completely ignored it. She has an atrocious voting record and has used her Twitter in the past to question why we should take any more Syrian refugees. I really do want such a person representing me in Westminster.



I have asked you this before. Is it just Corbyn you don't like or his left wing politics?


----------



## Gramsci (May 10, 2017)

Southlondon said:


> She also sacrificed her ministerial career when she voted against the Iraq war, joined corbyn in speaking and voting against the criminalisation of squatters, supported the short life tenants in their fight against eviction by Lambeth new labour council, for gay marriage, against ID cards, against the benefit cap, supports strong workers rights, against tuition fees. supported the tenants of the Ethelred estate when they were fighting the transfer of the estate out of council and is noted by huge numbers of residents for her accessibility, and willingness to fight their corner. Brexit is an issue that spanned the political spectrum, and without detracting from the importance of this issue, when voting for a candidate in Vauxhall weigh up the options. If Libs or greens weaken the labour vote the likely winner would be the Tories as it is in no way possible for either of them to close 20k votes for Hoey because of the strong personal vote she gets through her undeniable effective case work built up over 28 years. Then think who would you rather have negotiating Brexit cirbyn-led labour or may?
> Hoey would always be holding a minority Brexit position within the party, but her presence would help to educate the more mainstream labour politicians left and right, why swathes of labour voters were passionate leavers in the Labour heartlands further North.
> She also voted against the parties call for the 2nd leadership election when the blairites tried to topple him.
> How anyone can vote liberal knowing it was thanks to them we got Austerity, what do people think would happen if by some miracle they were king makers again? They'd jump straight back in with the Tories, tear up election promises like they did with tuition fees, and we would still get a Tory-led coalition. A Corbyn led labour government is a far more inviting proposition to me as a council tenant, and being on benefits, than another Tory or Tory/liberal coalition one, and voting for kate Hoey is a vote for a Corbyn government.



I agree with you about her commitment to housing and constituency work. 

But her stance on Brexit was appalling. It was little different from UKIP. Anti Immigration. She didn't have anything to teach other Labour politicians. In my area. brixton /LJ which is still classified as a deprived area immigration is not an issue. She deserves criticism for the way she supported Brexit.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 10, 2017)

This is one of her classics in defence of her stance on stopping Syrian refugees coming in...



And the response from twitter. Makes Trump seem like a social media genius.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 10, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Says it all.



You voted Brexit. That says it all. You're a fucking idiot.


----------



## butchersapron (May 10, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> This is one of her classics in defence of her stance on stopping Syrian refugees coming in...
> 
> 
> 
> And the response from twitter. Makes Trump seem like a social media genius.



Hang on, syria is now a vote decider for you?


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 10, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, syria is now a vote decider for you?



It's a brick in the wall, yes, butchersapron. Do you actually sit there all day hitting 'new posts' btw?


----------



## redsquirrel (May 10, 2017)

And this is it, you can support partnerships with the Tories, increases in VAT, increases on HE fees, attacks on the welfare state, attacks on the poor, etc but so long as you support the EU (ignoring it's killings in Greece) you're a _progressive!_


----------



## butchersapron (May 10, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> It's a brick in the wall, yes, butchersapron. Do you actually sit there all day hitting 'new posts' btw?


How is syria a brick in the wall for you?


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 10, 2017)

Her position on that is - do I actually need to spell that out for you?


----------



## butchersapron (May 10, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Her position on that is - do I actually need to spell that out for you?


Yes please.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 10, 2017)

What constituency do you live in butchersapron?


----------



## Southlondon (May 11, 2017)

Southlondon said:


> She also sacrificed her ministerial career when she voted against the Iraq war, joined corbyn in speaking and voting against the criminalisation of squatters, supported the short life tenants in their fight against eviction by Lambeth new labour council, for gay marriage, against ID cards, against the benefit cap, supports strong workers rights, against tuition fees. supported the tenants of the Ethelred estate when they were fighting the transfer of the estate out of council and is noted by huge numbers of residents for her accessibility, and willingness to fight their corner. Brexit is an issue that spanned the political spectrum, and without detracting from the importance of this issue, when voting for a candidate in Vauxhall weigh up the options. If Libs or greens weaken the labour vote the likely winner would be the Tories as it is in no way possible for either of them to close 20k votes for Hoey because of the strong personal vote she gets through her undeniable effective case work built up over 28 years. Then think who would you rather have negotiating Brexit cirbyn-led labour or may?
> Hoey would always be holding a minority Brexit position within the party, but her presence would help to educate the more mainstream labour politicians left and right, why swathes of labour voters were passionate leavers in the Labour heartlands further North.
> She also voted against the parties call for the 2nd leadership election when the blairites tried to topple him.
> How anyone can vote liberal knowing it was thanks to them we got Austerity, what do people think would happen if by some miracle they were king makers again? They'd jump straight back in with the Tories, tear up election promises like they did with tuition fees, and we would still get a Tory-led coalition. A Corbyn led labour government is a far more inviting proposition to me as a council tenant, and being on benefits, than another Tory or Tory/liberal coalition one, and voting for kate Hoey is a vote for a Corbyn government.[/


----------



## Southlondon (May 11, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> It's 12k votes, and the lib dems are well on course to overturn it. Sadly the only 'data' I have for that is by looking at the bookmakers sites which have LD and Hoey pretty much neck and neck - presumably because of her decision to campaign with noted bigot Nigel Farage last year. She, and her UKIP mates have put us in the absurd position of deciding between Teresa fucking May and the space cadet that is Jeremy Corbyn to negotiate our divorce from our main trading partner and deciding when and how to kick out the people who keep this country ticking over.
> 
> Her electorate was 80% remain and she completely ignored it. She has an atrocious voting record and has used her Twitter in the past to question why we should take any more Syrian refugees. I really do want such a person representing me in Westminster.


It's 22k +. They came 4th behind greens and Tories . It was the Tories that are 12 k behind


----------



## Gramsci (May 11, 2017)

Is it time for Labour Brexiteer Kate Hoey to get her coat in Vauxhall?

Kate Hoey interview.

She is back peddling on what she said about immigration during the referendum.


----------



## CH1 (May 12, 2017)

The Vauxhall notice of election candidates list is out. As well as Lib Dem, Con and Lab you have Green Party, Womens Equality Party and Pirate Party.


----------



## Gramsci (May 12, 2017)

With mixed feelings I want Hoey to be relected. Reading posts here I agree she has been an excellent constituency MP. I know this from people in Short Life housing who she has personally supported. Including turning up to attempted evictions to stop bailiffs. I seen her in action and been impressed.

She also has supported Corbyn.

Chuka Umunna and Helen Hayes vote no confidence in Corbyn with Kate Hoey backing the Labour Leader

Unlike ever so nice Helen Hayes and that tosser Cbuka.

Her stance on immigration and EU I don't like at all.

But given that as Buzz article shows, true to form, the Progress/ Blairite wing of party want her out, as she does not follow the true path I want her to stay.


----------



## CH1 (May 12, 2017)

I think that as the only candidate living in St Katherine's Quay she has distinct bourgeois tendencies - notwithstanding her forthright views and workerist self-projection.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 15, 2017)

The great _progressive_ LibDems

Two-faced as usual. (thanks to Idris2002 for the image)


----------



## CH1 (May 15, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> The great _progressive_ LibDems
> 
> Two-faced as usual. (thanks to Idris2002 for the image)



Still trying to work it out.
But this evening at 9 pm the Helen Hayes leaflet dropped on my doormat.
"Vote Helen Hayes to stop the Tories' Hard Brexit"

Presumably in Dulwich and West Norwood YOU would be voting Tory! (since Labour, Lib Dem and Greens are all Remainers)

There is always Robin Lambert (Independent). Dissident UKIP? (aren't they all?)


----------



## redsquirrel (May 15, 2017)

And there it is again - the EU is the _only_ issue!

Increasing VAT - not an issue; income tax cuts that benefit the well off - not an issue; renationalising the rail service - not an issue; HE fees - not an issue; applying VAT to private school fees - not an issue.

I guess that Tony Benn and Bob Crow must have been Tories too. Utter crap.


----------



## CH1 (May 27, 2017)

Word reaches me of the hustings today in the churchyard of St Mark's Kennington (venue of the execution of Jacobite rebels in 1745).

Kate Hoey and George Turner were the only competent speakers, I was told.

The Tory candidate came out as a remainer and claimed her influence would be useful in moderating La May's BREXIT.

The Women's Equality Party candidate came out with a very old fashioned speech along the lines of "I come from a good family of professional people, and I myself am a barrister and would therefore be the best to serve you as my constituents"

No reports of the Green or Pirate speeches, so not sure if that was through want of attendance on their part or lack of memorable quirks.

As the old saying goes "It's a two horse race!"


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 1, 2017)

Well according to YouGov's model it's a one horse race and the LDs aren't even in second place. So as has been said a vote for the LDs means that it's more likely that Labour will lose (though it's safe enough that that isn't going to happen). 

But then that's what the LDs want - keep Labour out!


----------



## CH1 (Jun 1, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Well according to YouGov's model it's a one horse race and the LDs aren't even in second place. So as has been said a vote for the LDs means that it's more likely that Labour will lose (though it's safe enough that that isn't going to happen).
> 
> But then that's what the LDs want - keep Labour out!


Obviously if Hoey lost it would be more likely that Labour would lose.

My own feeling is that if Theresa May lost her majority she and we would be in a 1974 situation. There would be a minority Labour government and another election in a few months. That is the best Labour can currently hope for.

You've already declared you are Labour and pro Brexit - why wouldn't you support Kate Hoey?

Meanwhile I believe George Turner is a good bet for people wanting their Remain views taken into account - and concerned about the architectural rape and social cleansing of the Vauxhall area (something Ms Hoey seems very low profile about).


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 1, 2017)

I'm not Labour I'm a communist. I'm not saying people should support Hoey I'm saying they shouldn't support a bunch of bastards that made the poor poorer and the rich richer, that are so bent they make the Tories look honest, that attacked the welfare state - and that if you support the LDs then that's precisely what you support


----------



## CH1 (Jun 1, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not Labour I'm a communist. I'm not saying people should support Hoey I'm saying they shouldn't support a bunch of bastards that made the poor poorer and the rich richer, that are so bent they make the Tories look honest, that attacked the welfare state - and that if you support the LDs then that's precisely what you support


What's your spin on the Greens then?

I know (in a professional capacity) a person who works in Lambeth's disability advice services and has been through memberships of several far left groups, but also standing as Green Party candidate in Vauxhall in 2010 en route.

Some time after this I met him and it was "Brighton Council are neo Nazis because they don't recognise union negotiating rights for dustmen etc etc." (according to him).

You are not the guy are you? Your persistent outlandish exaggeration make me suspect you are. My former work colleague had moved on to Left Unity when I last spoke to him. Is that Communist? Looks like it from their website. About Left Unity | Left Unity


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## redsquirrel (Jun 1, 2017)

What am I exaggerating? Are you denying the policies your party implemented when in government did not redistributed money from the poor to the rich? 

I don't think the Greens are neo-nazi's but I do think the employing scab labour makes you scum. And I'm not and haven't been a member of LU or any other political party for that matter.


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## Gramsci (Jun 1, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not Labour I'm a communist. I'm not saying people should support Hoey I'm saying they shouldn't support a bunch of bastards that made the poor poorer and the rich richer, that are so bent they make the Tories look honest, that attacked the welfare state - and that if you support the LDs then that's precisely what you support



As CH1 is my neighbour, I hope he won't mind me saying, from what he has put up in his windows he is supporting Greens this time around. A well known local. Rashid Nix. Who I know and is good guy imo.


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## Winot (Jun 1, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not Labour I'm a communist. I'm not saying people should support Hoey I'm saying they shouldn't support a bunch of bastards that made the poor poorer and the rich richer, that are so bent they make the Tories look honest, that attacked the welfare state - and that if you support the LDs then that's precisely what you support



Are the communist party putting up a candidate in Vauxhall?


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## Gramsci (Jun 1, 2017)

In some ways the Hoey/ Brexit issue is a distraction. What is happening to Vauxhall is that it's becoming a home for the super rich. As are large parts of central London. Yes I would prefer a communist government that dealt with the super rich - permanent removal. As the main parties have shown themselves incapable of doing anything. 

I cycle by Vauxhall every day. Find it nauseating to see that large tower. The penthouse flat owned by a Ukrainian Oligarch. I'd like a communist government that got rid of people like this and there penthouse flats.


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## CH1 (Jun 2, 2017)

Winot said:


> Are the communist party putting up a candidate in Vauxhall?


No - I posted the list a while back. There is the Pirate Party, the Women's Equality Party, the Green Party, Lib Dems, Tory and Labour.

From talking to a couple of TUSC people recently it appears there is some sort of agreement with such groups not to oppose Labour this time - presumably because for the first time since 1983 the Labour manifesto is to some extent socialist.

I haven't studied it in depth yet - but yesterday there was a FREE edition of the Morning Star which is very anti Tory and pro Corbyn, which kind of underlines what I just said above. 

There are several mainstream reports that the Communist Party are not opposing Labour this time such as Communist Party tells its voters to back Jeremy Corbyn as it fields no candidate (don't hold me responsible for the spin - the Metro is closely allied to the Daily Mail remember!)


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## CH1 (Jun 2, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> What am I exaggerating? Are you denying the policies your party implemented when in government did not redistributed money from the poor to the rich?
> 
> I don't think the Greens are neo-nazi's but I do think the employing scab labour makes you scum. And I'm not and haven't been a member of LU or any other political party for that matter.


You sound like the type of person Neil Kinncok was talking about in his famous rant:
"I'll tell you what happens with impossible promises. You start with far fetched resolutions. They are then pickled into a rigid dogma, a code, and you go through the years sticking to that, out-dated, misplaced, irrelevant to the real needs, and you end in the grotesque chaos of a Labour council—a Labour council—hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers. I'm telling you - and you'll listen - you can't play politics with people's jobs and with people's services. The people will not abide posturing."


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## CH1 (Jun 2, 2017)

Hoey vs Liberals is unlikely to degenerate to the situation in Manchester I guess. That well known friend of the left Guido Fawkes picked up tweets from "Rasheed Stalin" including the picture below. That Twitter account has been closed (I checked). Guido has three tweets saved there showing Labour supporters who go round nicking and destroying posters from gardens in south Manchester.

Reminds me of election tactics in the 1970s!

Balaclava-Clad Corbynistas Steal LibDem Placards - Guido Fawkes


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## redsquirrel (Jun 2, 2017)

CH1 said:


> You sound like the type of person Neil Kinncok was talking about in his famous rant:
> "I'll tell you what happens with impossible promises. You start with far fetched resolutions. They are then pickled into a rigid dogma, a code, and you go through the years sticking to that, out-dated, misplaced, irrelevant to the real needs, and you end in the grotesque chaos of a Labour council—a Labour council—hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers. I'm telling you - and you'll listen - you can't play politics with people's jobs and with people's services. The people will not abide posturing."


That would be the shit Kinnock that sold out the miner's. Quite happy to be on the opposite side to that cunt. 

And it's utterly pathetic to claim that not increase VAT or not employing scab labour are impossible promises. So are you denying that you party was part of a coalition government that redistributed wealth from the poor to the rich? Or are you accruing that they had no choice but to do that?


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## CH1 (Jun 2, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> That would be the shit Kinnock that sold out the miner's. Quite happy to be on the opposite side to that cunt.
> 
> And it's utterly pathetic to claim that not increase VAT or not employing scab labour are impossible promises. So are you denying that you party was part of a coalition government that redistributed wealth from the poor to the rich? Or are you accruing that they had no choice but to do that?


As Gramsci pointed out I'm a Green Party member. Were we part of a coalition?

I do not believe in Bipolar politics - that is the way of madness.

I believe in the Single Transferable Vote as used in the Republic of Ireland (and I think in Northern Ireland - though not allowed in mainland Britain).

I believe in negotiation and coalition.

I think that monolithic party government is disastrous - look at the state of Lambeth right now on libraries and estate regeneration.

Southwark is even worse on estates - though less bad apparently on libraries.

As regards national politics - if I was in Vauxhall I would vote for George Turner Lib Dem.

I will vote for Rashid Nix in my own constituency - I am very familiar with his views, he has run on a number of occasions at national and council level.

If I was in Streatham I might vote Green or Lib Dem. One factor that would influence me is if one or other 3rd party candidates might lose their deposit. I think it is iniquitous that parties have to pay £500 to stand in an election. Deposits plus advertising costs push us towards an American system where there  are only two parties, both appealing to big business.


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## redsquirrel (Jun 2, 2017)

OK, sorry I thought you said you were a member of the LibDems. As for the rest it doesn't address anything I've raised, what is bipolar politics, other than a soundbite? If it's condemning using scab labour than I welcome being bipolar.


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## Winot (Jun 2, 2017)

I'm increasingly of the view that the biggest divide in politics is between those who adopt principle as their guiding light and those who are prepared to compromise - ditch principle if you like - to achieve the least bad outcome.

The pure principled position is in a way the easiest. You can refuse to vote for anyone who does not abide by your principled views. However unless your principled views are held by the majority, then result is that the muddy centre ground gets into power (in one flavour or another). In fact it can be worse than that - you can end up with Tories rather than Labour - even if Labour are closer to the Tories than to your pure position on the left.


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## CH1 (Jun 2, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> OK, sorry I thought you said you were a member of the LibDems. As for the rest it doesn't address anything I've raised, what is bipolar politics, other than a soundbite? If it's condemning using scab labour than I welcome being bipolar.


Bipolar politics is a soundbite I just created.

By the way I agree with Ken Livingstone that Mayors are unnecessary. As he said there was nothing he did as Mayor than he couldn't have done as leader of the GLC. This is another example of Blairite centralisation now taken up by the Tories. In a way Mayors are locally elected Barons - easier to deal with than a democratic assembly.


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## CH1 (Jun 2, 2017)

Winot said:


> You can refuse to vote for anyone who does not abide by your principled views. However unless your principled views are held by the majority, then result is that the muddy centre ground gets into power (in one flavour or another). In fact it can be worse than that - you can end up with Tories rather than Labour - even if Labour are closer to the Tories than to your pure position on the left.


That is not wholly logical (IMHO). That is rather like the idea that you always vote Labour even if they close your libraries etc because you don't want the Tories (who might get in if you voted TUSC for example).

There was a boy whose name was Jim 
His friends were very good to him 
They gave him tea and cakes and jam 
And slices of delicious ham
And chocolate with pink inside 
And little tricycles to ride 
They read him stories through and through 
And even took him to the zoo 
But there it was the awful fate 
Befell him, which I now relate 
You know (at least you ought to know 
For I have often told you so)
That children never are allowed 
To leave their nurses in a crowd 
Now this was Jim's especial foible 
He ran away when he was able
And on this inauspicious day 
He slipped his hand and ran away 
He hadn't gone a yard when BANG 
With open jaws a lion sprang
And hungrily began to eat 
The boy, beginning at his feet 
Now just imagine how it feels 
When first your toes and then your heels 
And then by varying degrees 
Your shins and ankles, calves and knees 
Are slowly eaten bit by bit 
No wonder Jim detested it 
No wonder that he shouted "Ai" 
The honest keeper heard his cry 
Though very fat, he almost ran 
To help the little gentleman 
"Ponto," he ordered as he came 
For Ponto was the lion's name 
"Ponto," he said with angry frown 
"Down sir, let go, put it down!" 
The lion made a sudden stop 
He let the dainty morsel drop 
And slunk reluctant to his cage 
Snarling with disappointed rage 
But when he bent him over, Jim 
The honest keeper's eyes grew dim 
The lion having reached his head 
The miserable boy was dead 
When nurse informed his parents they 
Were more concerned than I can say 
His mother as she dried her eyes 
Said "It gives me no surprise 
He would not do as he was told." 
His father who was self-controlled 
Bade all the children round attend 
To James's miserable end. 
And always keep ahold of nurse 
For fear of finding something worse.

Belloc, H.


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## Winot (Jun 2, 2017)

CH1 said:


> That is not wholly logical (IMHO). That is rather like the idea that you always vote Labour even if they close your libraries etc because you don't want the Tories (who might get in if you voted TUSC for example).



That is precisely the idea that I am (reluctantly) coming round to. It depends of course how close the risk is of the Tories getting in.


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## lefteri (Jun 2, 2017)

CH1 said:


> You sound like the type of person Neil Kinncok was talking about in his famous rant:
> "I'll tell you what happens with impossible promises. You start with far fetched resolutions. They are then pickled into a rigid dogma, a code, and you go through the years sticking to that, out-dated, misplaced, irrelevant to the real needs, and you end in the grotesque chaos of a Labour council—a Labour council—hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers. I'm telling you - and you'll listen - you can't play politics with people's jobs and with people's services. The people will not abide posturing."


Ironically it was kinnock that parachuted Kate hoey into the seat over the candidate chosen by the local party

I wouldn't listen to anything that man has to say, the beginning of the rot setting into labour if you ask me


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## CH1 (Jun 2, 2017)

Winot said:


> That is precisely the idea that I am (reluctantly) coming round to. It depends of course how close the risk is of the Tories getting in.


This is the art of tactical voting. I don't know if you were around in 1997 but there was an organisation called Charter 88 which gave guidance on how to vote in each and every constituency to get rid of the conservatives. It could be that they had an effect - can it all be down to Tony Blair's magnetic personality?


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## Gramsci (Jun 2, 2017)

Winot said:


> I'm increasingly of the view that the biggest divide in politics is between those who adopt principle as their guiding light and those who are prepared to compromise - ditch principle if you like - to achieve the least bad outcome.
> 
> The pure principled position is in a way the easiest. You can refuse to vote for anyone who does not abide by your principled views. However unless your principled views are held by the majority, then result is that the muddy centre ground gets into power (in one flavour or another). In fact it can be worse than that - you can end up with Tories rather than Labour - even if Labour are closer to the Tories than to your pure position on the left.



I disagree with this. I don't think juxtaposing principled Vs compromisers stands up. The present muddy centre ground is a product of Thatcherism. Thatcher, for all I disagree with her, stuck to her "principles". She not only transformed the Tory party she also transformed the "common sense" of politics. As my name sske would say.

Thatcher as no compromiser.

Blair's "Third Way" political project was underlined by the work of theorists like Giddens. As  well as the "end of history" of Fukuyama.

Can be categorised as a "principled" position.

As I've posted elsewhere the Evening Standard under Osborne has made an argument for continuing the "centre" ground. A Blairite Labour party and Cameronite Tory party. This appeared to be the culmination of the "end of history" thesis. Politics run by who would best manage Capitalism. So called neo liberal Capitalism. Socially liberal and economically neo liberal. ( Free markets, privatisation, free movement of capital and people , when that suits capital.)


This had failed here and in US.

My point is two things. That the "centre" ground was not "muddy". It was a coherent ideological position. "Principled". It's failed.

As I know redsquirrel  has questioned the idea that the centre ground is liberal.

I would agree with this.


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## Winot (Jun 2, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I disagree with this. I don't think juxtaposing principled Vs compromisers stands up. The present muddy centre ground is a product of Thatcherism. Thatcher, for all I disagree with her, stuck to her "principles". She not only transformed the Tory party she also transformed the "common sense" of politics. As my name sske would say.
> 
> Thatcher as no compromiser.
> 
> ...



I think that you are talking about the politicians and I am talking about the voters. Most ordinary voters do not concern themselves with political theory. Most people vote with a mixture of self-interest, habit and principle. Their vote is a compromise - they talk about the 'least worst'. Most people are not members of political parties.

Anyway, interesting - thank you. I shall think more about what you've said.


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## tim (Jun 3, 2017)

lefteri said:


> Ironically it was kinnock that parachuted Kate hoey into the seat over the candidate chosen by the local party
> 
> I wouldn't listen to anything that man has to say, the beginning of the rot setting into labour if you ask me



Ramsey  McDonald was a rotter long before Kinnock


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## Gramsci (Jun 3, 2017)

Winot said:


> I think that you are talking about the politicians and I am talking about the voters. Most ordinary voters do not concern themselves with political theory. Most people vote with a mixture of self-interest, habit and principle. Their vote is a compromise - they talk about the 'least worst'. Most people are not members of political parties.
> 
> Anyway, interesting - thank you. I shall think more about what you've said.



I was replying to your opinion stated in your post. You are now extending your view onto "ordinary" voters.

On compromise. Fair number of left groups are saying to vote Labour. Not take a "pure" position. Support Labour party as Tories are worse. But not uncritical support.

I'm wary of this "ordinary" voter line. Evening Standard has been doing this in it's commentator pages. That the increase in membership of Labour party under Corbyn is to be discounted as these aren't "ordinary" people.

Of course it's well known tactic of the right to smear those who are left of centre as not part of the mainstream.


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## Winot (Jun 3, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I was replying to your opinion stated in your post. You are now extending your view onto "ordinary" voters.
> 
> On compromise. Fair number of left groups are saying to vote Labour. Not take a "pure" position. Support Labour party as Tories are worse. But not uncritical support.
> 
> ...



My original post was about voters not politicians. 

Good call on the left groups supporting Labour.


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## Gramsci (Jun 3, 2017)

Winot said:


> My original post was about voters not politicians.
> 
> Good call on the left groups supporting Labour.



Who are these "ordinary voters"? I come across a wide range of opinions. From wanting this country to be more like Cuba and someone I know wanting to bring back National Service. Both ordinary (working class) people I know who aren't in political parties. I don't see either of them interested in the " muddy " political centre.

Saw the Economist magazine had front page asking where the political centre had gone. (Btw the political centre was never that liberali if you are working class. )As the Blairites found out. They thought the old class lines had gone for good. The traditional working class were a residual rump who could be ignored. Politics was based around the middle ground.

Unfortunately for the advocates of the middle ground the working class didn't dissappear.

In a small way I can see this in Loughborough Junction. The Loughborough Council estate residents felt they have for years been treated with contempt by "centre" politicians.

The rise of so called populist politics of right and left is due to this.


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## Gramsci (Jun 3, 2017)

Saw Kate out canvassing today.


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## CH1 (Jun 3, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> Saw Kate out canvassing today.


Things aren't what they used to be.
Look at the list of candidates when she got in first in 1989:


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## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2017)

Interesting article by John Lanchester about the Vauxhall constitiency:
LRB · John Lanchester · Between Victoria and Vauxhall: The Election


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## The39thStep (Jun 8, 2017)

Tim Farron urging people to vote for Lib Dems to oust a Labour MP .Itll be interesting to see how depraved Remainers are to back the Tories bedfellows.


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## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Tim Farron urging people to vote for Lib Dems to oust a Labour MP .



What a foul image.


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## Reiabuzz (Jun 8, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Interesting article by John Lanchester about the Vauxhall constitiency:
> LRB · John Lanchester · Between Victoria and Vauxhall: The Election



Interesting read. Very depressing last para though as I'm hearing it's pretty much been called for her.



> What this general election offers in Vauxhall is a choice between voting for the party that helped the Tories introduce the austerity regime which is still blighting lives seven years on, or voting for a candidate who is pro-Brexit, pro-Farage, pro-May, pro-handgun, and backed by Ukip. Isn’t representative democracy great? Perhaps the most emblematic, and the most dispiriting, thing about this local contest is that our votes won’t have much effect on the things that affect us. The outcome of the Vauxhall contest in the general election will have no bearing on any of the outstanding problems facing the area: it will have no effect on the housing crisis, no effect on the hollowing out of Central London by absentee capital, no effect on health inequality. It will, however, give voters who think Brexit is a disaster a chance to let our feelings be known. In that one sense and that sense only, it gives us a lever. I think quite a few of us are going to pull it.


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## CH1 (Jun 8, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Interesting read. Very depressing last para though as I'm hearing it's pretty much been called for her.


The main point for me is that this system of first past the post always as a tendecy to avoid innovation and to impose top-down government.
A proportional voting system would mean a wider choice.

By the way my understanding is that Mrs May and the Tory party are keen to remove the proportional element in local government - so you certainly will never see PR used in Manchester Council for example, and I imagine the GLA may well be "reformed" to strip out the third party representation we currently have.

I appreciate it is not compulsory to retire any more - but Kate Hoey at 71 has had a fair innings. Retiring on an inflation-proof parliamentary pension to her luxury pad in St Katherine's Dock is surely ample reward for buggering up the county for the next 50 years!


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## donkyboy (Jun 8, 2017)

I voted Lib Dem today to try get rid of Hoey. My gripe with her primarily being her stance supporting fox hunting.


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## Reiabuzz (Jun 8, 2017)

There's so many issues you could call her out on, anti-refugee, pro gun, anti corporate tax rise, brexit, so why not fox hunting.. I really do think Turners campaign should have gone for the neck on all these issues but in typical lib dem style were far too soft.

They asked all their activists to move over to Kingston about 5pm today where it's also a tight race so I'm reading that as their own exit polls suggesting it was a lost cause. Oh well.


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## Ms T (Jun 9, 2017)

She's increased her majority.


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## CH1 (Jun 9, 2017)

Ms T said:


> She's increased her majority.


Yes - weird. The Tory candidate was apparently a vocal Remainer at the hustings - wonder what her leaflets said.


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## Southlondon (Jun 9, 2017)

CH1 said:


> Yes - weird. The Tory candidate was apparently a vocal Remainer at the hustings - wonder what her leaflets said.


The libdems thought brexit was a big issue in the estates where her core vote lies - it wasn't. I canvassedhard for her, and it was the local stuff that came up most. She has enormous personal support amongst the working class constituents, because whenever someone needs her support she is there for them. She has fought the Lambeth council on estate transfers and estate demolition, she stood up for the housing coop people when they faced eviction, even joining them to stop bailiffs evicting. She always attended estate tennant association meetings and acted on their behalf when they faced attacks, she helped hundreds of residents with immigration and residency issues, and has got Vauxhall some of the best sports facilities on any estates in London ( the sports hub in the Ethelred estate is totally down to her). 
She is not seen as a ukip person by anyone except the libdems and new labour. As I said brexit was not an issue with the vast majority of residents as proved in the voting


----------



## Winot (Jun 9, 2017)

Interesting - thanks. I think the Revenger of the Remainers narrative is overplayed - if it really was true then the LDs would have done better.


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## lefteri (Jun 9, 2017)

Southlondon said:


> The libdems thought brexit was a big issue in the estates where her core vote lies - it wasn't. I canvassedhard for her, and it was the local stuff that came up most. She has enormous personal support amongst the working class constituents, because whenever someone needs her support she is there for them. She has fought the Lambeth council on estate transfers and estate demolition, she stood up for the housing coop people when they faced eviction, even joining them to stop bailiffs evicting. She always attended estate tennant association meetings and acted on their behalf when they faced attacks, she helped hundreds of residents with immigration and residency issues, and has got Vauxhall some of the best sports facilities on any estates in London ( the sports hub in the Ethelred estate is totally down to her).
> She is not seen as a ukip person by anyone except the libdems and new labour. As I said brexit was not an issue with the vast majority of residents as proved in the voting


I've seen her in my estate's tenants' meeting be scathing towards Lambeth councillors who were acting against the tenants' interests - for that reason alone I'm glad she's held her seat


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## CH1 (Jun 9, 2017)

Winot said:


> Interesting - thanks. I think the Revenger of the Remainers narrative is overplayed - if it really was true then the LDs would have done better.


Evidently so. I know a couple of Hoey's constituents who were convinced she would be out - for Brexit related reasons. On the other hand a old friend of mine who was a Lib Dem councillor in times gone by told me he would be highly surprised if she lost.

George Turner was certainly an interesting local character who'd do a lot on planning issues - but evidently was part of the Metropolitan elite as far as the estates were concerned.

I still find it odd that the electorate find Labour electable in Lambeth and Southwark given their library cuts and estate regeneration schemes - especially the latter which seem to me to spill over into municipal corruption far in excess of T Dan Smith and J Poulson (look them up).


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## Gramsci (Jun 9, 2017)

Southlondon said:


> The libdems thought brexit was a big issue in the estates where her core vote lies - it wasn't. I canvassedhard for her, and it was the local stuff that came up most. She has enormous personal support amongst the working class constituents, because whenever someone needs her support she is there for them. She has fought the Lambeth council on estate transfers and estate demolition, she stood up for the housing coop people when they faced eviction, even joining them to stop bailiffs evicting. She always attended estate tennant association meetings and acted on their behalf when they faced attacks, she helped hundreds of residents with immigration and residency issues, and has got Vauxhall some of the best sports facilities on any estates in London ( the sports hub in the Ethelred estate is totally down to her).
> She is not seen as a ukip person by anyone except the libdems and new labour. As I said brexit was not an issue with the vast majority of residents as proved in the voting



That's all well and good. I have had people I know who have been helped by her personally. I seen her take on bailiffs trying to evict a short life tenant.

However seeing her as a UKIP person is not just new Labour or LDs. I have heard her views on immigration and EU. They are offensive. My partner is Spanish and does a working class job. Kate Hoey views on EU and immigration are offensive. They deserve criticism.My Spanish partner and my Polish friends no longer feel welcome here due to the way she and her UKIP chum argued for Brexit. She has a lot to answer for. Btw my EU friends do working class jobs.

Also Chukka got an increased vote. I think a lot of vote was people on estates like a Corbyn left Labour party. He had a good campaign.


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## Gramsci (Jun 9, 2017)

I have a friend from Northern Ireland who says she is typical Prod.

Here she is on Britishness. It's reactionary.





> Even more strikingly, Hoey blames her party’s “extremely unpatriotic” outlook for its increasing alienation from its traditional working class supporters. “They feel very strongly about their country and we have been extremely unpatriotic as a party to our country. There’s just a feeling that we’re half-hearted about being British, we’re half-hearted about the monarchy, we’re half-hearted about the way we see our country in the world. I’m very proud of being British and I think the United Kingdom is a force for good in the world and we seem to feel all the time that we have to put ourselves down because somehow that might upset people”.




Kate Hoey: Labour has become an “extremely unpatriotic” party


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2017)

lefteri said:


> I've seen her in my estate's tenants' meeting be scathing towards Lambeth councillors who were acting against the tenants' interests - for that reason alone I'm glad she's held her seat



She's always been prepared to hold the one-party state of Lambeth to account, thank fuck, because neither Umunna or Hayes will.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2017)

CH1 said:


> I still find it odd that the electorate find Labour electable in Lambeth and Southwark given their library cuts and estate regeneration schemes - especially the latter which seem to me to spill over into municipal corruption far in excess of T Dan Smith and J Poulson (look them up).



To be fair, people do tend to differentiate between constituency and ward, and I suspect that next year's local elections will reflect the discontent with the libraries/regen/back-handers farragos.


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## Ms T (Jun 10, 2017)

I have a friend who used to live in her constituency who does not have good things to say about her work as a constituency MP or as a junior minister.


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## ChrisSouth (Jun 10, 2017)

CH1 said:


> Yes - weird. The Tory candidate was apparently a vocal Remainer at the hustings - wonder what her leaflets said.



They probably said 'I'm a Tory', which would have been enough to swing it


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## CH1 (Jun 10, 2017)

ChrisSouth said:


> They probably said 'I'm a Tory', which would have been enough to swing it


On reflection it seems Brexit was not very relevant in this General Election.

FWIW it seems to me that the election demonstrates that the Labour Party machine on the estates in South London is still in good nick, and Corbyn had a much better grasp of the issues relevant to most voters.

I note that the Greens polled a disappointingly low 2.5% typically - presumably reflecting a low spend on publicity and lack of people.

In Lambeth as a whole the Lib Dems all saved their deposits despite having been wiped out on the council in 2014, whereas the Greens all lost their deposits despite being more fashionable and not tainted with having been in coalition.

In a way I am pleased with the national outcome - I like a bit of instability. There seems every prospect of Mrs May resigning and another election before the year end.

Sorry that Lambeth and Southwark are however condemned to another 4 years of a one party state next year by the look of it. Labour espousing socialist policies at national level and yet being lapdogs to property developers at council level is hardly going to solve anything.


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## Gramsci (Jun 10, 2017)

CH1 said:


> On reflection it seems Brexit was not very relevant in this General Election.
> 
> FWIW it seems to me that the election demonstrates that the Labour Party machine on the estates in South London is still in good nick, and Corbyn had a much better grasp of the issues relevant to most voters.
> 
> ...



I think the Greens lost votes as people who used to vote Green went back to Labour. Green Party gained votes from those who could no longer stomach New Labour.


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## Gramsci (Jun 10, 2017)

CH1 said:


> Sorry that Lambeth and Southwark are however condemned to another 4 years of a one party state next year by the look of it. Labour espousing socialist policies at national level and yet being lapdogs to property developers at council level is hardly going to solve anything.




Yes that's a big problem. In Lambeth the leadership and Cllrs actively tried to undermine Corbyn. I think Corbyn should now try to reign these people in. They are Blairites whose policies undermine the working class.

The Adventure Playground in LJ is an example. Where they have been trying to persuade locals it's in there best interests that it be sold to a developer. With people like me opposing it being portrayed as not "sensible".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> Yes that's a big problem. In Lambeth the leadership and Cllrs actively tried to undermine Corbyn. I think Corbyn should now try to reign these people in. They are Blairites whose policies undermine the working class.
> 
> The Adventure Playground in LJ is an example. Where they have been trying to persuade locals it's in there best interests that it be sold to a developer. With people like me opposing it being portrayed as not "sensible".



Or, to use their seemingly favourite word, "pragmatic": "We're only being pragmatic, demolishing your estate/selling off your adventure playground/closing the libraries". 

Wankers.


----------



## Southlondon (Jun 11, 2017)

CH1 said:


> On reflection it seems Brexit was not very relevant in this General Election.
> 
> FWIW it seems to me that the election demonstrates that the Labour Party machine on the estates in South London is still in good nick, and Corbyn had a much better grasp of the issues relevant to most voters.
> 
> ...


It wasn't the 'well oiled party machine' that got her elected as the majority or our activists were sent to marginal seats where numbers were needed, it was a greatly reduced effort because very early on, once we realised the libdems were going to concentrate on brexit, we realised we had an easy fight. In fact on the day we did not have the numbers to do a knocking up, but despite the fact the libdems made it a national so target and spent  5 x more than labour in the campaign, we were very confident the residents would do our campaigning for us such is her personal standing. On the day we sent even more of activists to battersea and toooting to bulk up their numbers. The fact that hoey had historically supported corbyn from both his selection campaigns and issues such as squatters rights, and opposition to austerity made it relatively easy for us to rally support from across the constituency from beyond our membership. The libdems totally misread the electorate, and despite their claims right up to polling day that they were beck and neck, at no point did we anticipate anything less than a landslide


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## Gramsci (Jun 11, 2017)

Kate won due to Corbyn effect. Helen Hayes and Chuka also increased votes. Chuka who openly opposed the move of the party to the left. This election, despite May trying to make it about Brexit, was fought on issues such as dementia tax.

Kate now feels vindicated on her Brexit stance. Despite fact that many who voted remain must of voted for her. I have real problem with this.

In ES she says:


> She added: “The people of Vauxhall have shown, that sad though many of them were that the vote went against them in the referendum when they voted to stay, I believe the people of Vauxhall want to move on”.



"I believe". I don't think average Londoners share her views on immigration and Britishness. She was Brexit from a right wing angle. She can't read moving on from this vote. Imo the whole Brexit issue has not been resolved at all by this election. It's toxic issue still. Im still having to explain to my East European friends that not this country is not necessarily anti immigration. And my Spanish partner. Plus Spanish and Italians I know who work here. London is very multicultural and she doesn't get it. We don't all share Kate's and Farage view of Britishness. I'm dealing with this on a personal level. It's not just political theory for me.

She has now made a concession. Saying she will support EU citizens from other European countries to stay in London. That's a change. She was one of the few Labour MPs not to support Labour amendment that government should gaurentee rights of people from other EU countries to stay. Not use them as bargaining chip.


Brexiteer Kate Hoey says victory shows country has moved on


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## happyshopper (Jun 11, 2017)

Southlondon said:


> ... once we realised the libdems were going to concentrate on brexit, we realised we had an easy fight. ... The libdems totally misread the electorate, and despite their claims right up to polling day that they were beck and neck, at no point did we anticipate anything less than a landslide



Labour was always going to win Vauxhall, despite the standard LD hype. But it was far from the walkover suggested here. The LD vote was much higher than in the surrounding constituencies, apart from Bermondsey which was clearly a special case. Everywhere else there was a significant swing from LD to Labour, whereas in Vauxhall there was a swing the other way. 

And Hoey didn't support Corbyn for Labour leader; she nominated Andy Burnham for the leadership and Caroline Flint for deputy leader.


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## donkyboy (Jun 12, 2017)

I contacted her over 6 years ago when I was on lambeth's housing list and making no progress with getting a flat. her aides did try to assist by contacting lambeth on my behalf-I later got a call from lambeth giving me more options and advice. It didn't help much but I did appreciate my case being taken up. Shortly after I ended up getting my own one bed flat in Vauxhall. The man who had first refusal didn't show up so I got it.  Last week, I got Foxton over and told them some bull that it was own flat. They valued it £375,000.  All part of the gentrification of Vauxhall-but anyway I digress. I was very disappointed her majority went up.


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## Ol Nick (Jun 12, 2017)

CH1 said:


> Obviously if Hoey lost it would be more likely that Labour would lose.
> 
> My own feeling is that if Theresa May lost her majority she and we would be in a 1974 situation. There would be a minority Labour government and another election in a few months. That is the best Labour can currently hope for.
> 
> ...


Best u75 prediction!


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## Gramsci (Dec 3, 2017)

I was listening to Kate on radio , Any Questions on Friday the radio version, arguing that the border issue between the north of Ireland and the republic Eire was caused by the republic. Not Brexiters like her. That she was all for open borders between the North and the republic. If I heard it right.

Any Questions was in Northern Ireland last Friday. I had to try to explain to my Spanish partner why the North is always treated as an exception. Why Kate who wants EU citizens here on mainland to have closed border wants Northern Ireland border to be treated differently.

So in her world, she comes from Northern Ireland, it's the republic of Ireland that's causing problems.

I was finding it difficult to explain to my EU partner why in United Kingdom a politician who wants "our" borders back sees the North differently. A politician whose made it clear to EU nationals like my partner that they aren't welcome here.

Why the DUP support Brexit, regard themselves as loyal supporters of UK,  but don't want UK laws to apply to them if it offends there religious sensibilities. Like abortion rights.

I as rather tired Friday. It's hard to explain the North to someone not from here. It's quite a good exercise. Its really surreal.

Kate showed her Unionist colours on Friday. It was all pretty unpleasant.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I was listening to Kate on radio , Any Questions on Friday the radio version, arguing that the border issue between the north of Ireland and the republic Eire was caused by the republic. Not Brexiters like her. That she was all for open borders between the North and the republic. If I heard it right.
> 
> Any Questions was in Northern Ireland last Friday. I had to try to explain to my Spanish partner why the North is always treated as an exception. Why Kate who wants EU citizens here on mainland to have closed border wants Northern Ireland border to be treated differently.
> 
> ...



She's an Ulster Proddie, Ulster exceptionalism is in her blood, even when she has - in the past - claimed to be neutral.  Any rational viewer of the situation re: Brexit in the island of Ireland can see that it's an issue of two parts - where Brexit leaves Ulster, and whether the Republic are going to support what Ulster does, or what the EU wants.


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## happyshopper (Dec 4, 2017)

Getting back to the original question, the answer is for you and a lot of your friends to join the Labour Party and work with like-minded other members to use use the existing Party rules to select a different candidate for the next general election. Here’s not the place to set out all the steps that would trigger a full one member one vote selection, but it is possible in theory, although hard in practice. 

The alternative, of ejecting her through the ballot box by backing another candidate, has been shown not to work. Labour didn’t do as well in Vauxhall as on most other parts of London, but it still had an easy victory.

The selection process for the next election hasn’t started yet, so there’s time to get involved by joining the Party. 

The problem isn’t that there is any discernible pro-Brexit faction within the Vauxhall Party that supports Hoey on that issue. On the contrary, the whole Party is solid remain. It’s that any future selection process is likely to be dominated more by left/right issues within the Party, rather than for/against Brexit. Hoey might survive as being perceived as being more pro-Corbyn than anyone backed by the anti-Corbyn faction that currently runs the constituency Party. 

Sorry it’s depressing, but there’s no other way. You’ve just got to pay the subscription and attend some meetings.


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## RoyReed (Jul 18, 2018)

Hoey was one of the three Labour MPs who voted with the government on both amendments to the Brexit Customs Bill (the others were Frank Field and Graham Stringer, and also independent former Labour MP Kelvin Hopkins).

When is the local party going to get rid of her!


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## redsquirrel (Jul 18, 2018)

It was four Labour MPs - you've missed off John Mann.

And how do you suggest that the local party "get rid of her"?


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## RoyReed (Jul 18, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> It was four Labour MPs - you've missed off John Mann.
> 
> And how do you suggest that the local party "get rid of her"?


Yes, you're right, don't know how I missed Mann.

Arsenic?


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## CH1 (Jul 18, 2018)

RoyReed said:


> Yes, you're right, don't know how I missed Mann.


Particularly as he was Labour Councillor for Town Hall Ward 1986-1990.
He gets mixed reviews on UK Polling Report
Runnymede said in September 2016:
"John Mann is an anachronism, I always think, though a ‘good’ one. He’s one of a handful of the old fashioned patriotic Labour types that are still left. Sound on the EU also.

Labour MPs with this outlook have been vanishing at an accelerating rate since the late 1960s, to be replaced largely by hideous middle-class public sector drones/daleks and a sprinkling of armchair revolutionaries".

I imagine Runnymede (who s/he?) would say similar about Kate Hoey.


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## happyshopper (Jul 18, 2018)

I've explained how you get rid of Hoey before on this thread and can't be bothered to repeat myself. But everyone needs to understand that it's extremely hard for members of the local party to get rid of an incumbent Labour MP. This was made deliberately so by the right wing/centrist currents within Labour. 

But there are proposals to increase democracy within the Party going to the forthcoming Conference, which I hope will increase the power of individual members. I'm not in favour of giving more power of the Party nationally over selections. Hoey was originally chosen for a by-election by the Party's National Executive Committee, side-lining the local Party that wanted a wider range of candidates. She has never subsequently had to face a ballot of members due to the bureaucratic barriers that were erected to protect the position of sitting MPs.


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## Tricky Skills (Jul 18, 2018)

Kate Hoey faces deselection as Vauxhall Constituency Labour Party puts forward Motion to remove the MP


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## Gramsci (Jul 18, 2018)

Tricky Skills said:


> Kate Hoey faces deselection as Vauxhall Constituency Labour Party puts forward Motion to remove the MP



I've mixed feelings on this.

On Brexit Hoey has same views as the DUP.

She is not representing here constituents on Brexit. 

So she should face re selection imo. If she thinks she is right she can explain that and try to win re selection.


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## cybershot (Jul 27, 2018)

See ya


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## RoyReed (Jul 27, 2018)

Now she can go and suck Farage's cock as much as she likes.


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## JimW (Jul 27, 2018)

RoyReed said:


> Now she can go and suck Farage's cock as much as she likes.


Not really sort of comment to make about a woman in politics Roy. Plenty of better ways to slag her off.


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## RoyReed (Jul 27, 2018)

Apologies if I've offended you (or anyone else). It's not the sort of comment I make very often online, but this woman has really got to me.


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## Winot (Jul 27, 2018)

Is there any way out of this for her? Could she just ignore it?


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## CH1 (Jul 27, 2018)

Winot said:


> Is there any way out of this for her? Could she just ignore it?


How is a vote of no confidence related to deselection?
Just asking.


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## Southlondon (Jul 27, 2018)

CH1 said:


> How is a vote of no confidence related to deselection?
> Just asking.


All it means is the mood of the meeting was that they want her to go. Remember the local party has over 2000 members, but the activists are a fraction of that. There are many older members who remember how she stood by them and sacrificed her ministerial career to oppose Iraq, or housing activists who remember how she stood by them against the council and a sizeable number who like myself support Brexit. The activists tried to get rid of her before using the trigger procedure, each individual branch voted and at each meeting the sitting councillors spoke up against her and yet she won by a near unanimous verdict. She has immense personal support in the local party for many of whom Brexit is not as important an issue as it is for the activists. So I do not think triggering her is likely to be much more successful for the activists than last time. As for withdrawing the whip and the party dismissing her, I don’t believe that is likely to happen. Kate like the late bob crow and Tony benn, has always been very clear where she stands on the EU. She voted against the benefit cuts that hurt so many unlike many of those calling  for her Deselection, the criminalisation of commercial squatting , and has stood shoulder to shoulder with her constituents against the council and local party on numerous occasions. Chat to people on our estates and you’ll find Brexit is not number one issue for many, and that kate is respected as an accessible MP.  1/3 of Labour voters and 2/3 of our constituencies voted for Brexit at least allow us a handful of MPs to represent our wishes


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## Southlondon (Jul 27, 2018)




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## Southlondon (Jul 27, 2018)

You won’t get a photo like that from some chukka umana/Steve Reed type slimy careerist MP so be careful what you all wish for. You know the make up of the council, why would a labour replacement MP be anything other than another recruit to snipe at Corbyn. There will be a general election soon, and as per labours manifesto we will be out of the EU, and Then who do you want ? Progress or kate?


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## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2018)

Risky business for a party that nationally relies on over 150 seats that voted for Brexit.


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## Gramsci (Jul 27, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> All it means is the mood of the meeting was that they want her to go. Remember the local party has over 2000 members, but the activists are a fraction of that. There are many older members who remember how she stood by them and sacrificed her ministerial career to oppose Iraq, or housing activists who remember how she stood by them against the council and a sizeable number *who like myself support Brexit*. The activists tried to get rid of her before using the trigger procedure, each individual branch voted and at each meeting the sitting councillors spoke up against her and yet she won by a near unanimous verdict. She has immense personal support in the local party for many of whom Brexit is not as important an issue as it is for the activists. So I do not think triggering her is likely to be much more successful for the activists than last time. As for withdrawing the whip and the party dismissing her, I don’t believe that is likely to happen. Kate like the late bob crow and Tony benn, has always been very clear where she stands on the EU. She voted against the benefit cuts that hurt so many unlike many of those calling  for her Deselection, the criminalisation of commercial squatting , and has stood shoulder to shoulder with her constituents against the council and local party on numerous occasions. Chat to people on our estates and you’ll find Brexit is not number one issue for many, and that kate is respected as an accessible MP.  1/3 of Labour voters and 2/3 of our constituencies voted for Brexit at least allow us a handful of MPs to represent our wishes



Highlighted what your post is really about. Your support for Brexit.

Hoey support for Brexit wasn't left wing. I have heard her on radio going on about immigration. That when she represents a London constituency.

I live in Loughborough Junction and am a Council tenant. I can tell you my neighbours opposed Brexit. I do a working class job in London. All my workmates oppose Brexit. And it is an issue for them. I can't see how you can say for ordinary working people it is not.

So from my experience of spending ninety percent of my time with working class people my view is that in London Brexit wasn't popular.

To get overwhelming popularity you have to go outside London like my home town Plymouth. In the blue collar bit I grew up in they all voted Brexit. Reasons . More money for NHS and immigration. I know this as I still go back there to visit brother. From what I have seen in P!youth immigration was major factor in how people voted.


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## Gramsci (Jul 27, 2018)

Before anyone jumps to conclusion that its the Progress right of the party who aren't happy with Hoey here is Vauxhall Momentum view.


> Below is the motion passed by Vauxhall Momentum.
> 
> As Labour members who campaigned for Kate Hoey at the last General Election despite many of us disagreeing with her about Brexit, we are appalled at the way in which she is demonstrating that her personal views take priority over representing her constituents and our Party by voting to enable this rotten, inept Government to stay in office.
> 
> ...



Vauxhall Labour prepares to deselect Kate Hoey | LabourList


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## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Highlighted what your post is really about. Your support for Brexit.
> 
> Hoey support for Brexit wasn't left wing. I have heard her on radio going on about immigration. That when she represents a London constituency.
> 
> ...


In all fairness since when has a debate on  immigration been a no go area for people who live in London?


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## Gramsci (Jul 27, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> In all fairness since when has a debate on  immigration been a no go area for people who live in London?



I'm not sure what you are getting at.

My experience of working class Londoners I work with is that immigration is not an issue now for majority of them.

I agree debate on immigration is not a no go area. See the outrage I've heard in Brixton over treatment of Windrush generation  from Black British people I know.

If that is what you mean by immigration not being a no go area.

Its also been a no go area for Black British people , in an other sense,I know who were born here , my age. When they grew up in Brixton certain area of London were no go areas for them. Things have changed for the better since 70s in London.

Things have been changing in London. Especially amongst younger generation.

Outside London no. From my experience of Plymouth.

And I have heard Hoey banging on about immigration in little Englander way. Its really pissed me off her.


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## Southlondon (Jul 28, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Highlighted what your post is really about. Your support for Brexit.
> 
> Hoey support for Brexit wasn't left wing. I have heard her on radio going on about immigration. That when she represents a London constituency.
> 
> ...


Well on my council estate in Vauxhall where I’m a tenant, I have plenty of neighbours who support Brexit, although obviously I accept the majority of people in Vauxhall voted remain- just remember the majority of people over all voted leave, including 1in 3 labour voters, and I promise you they weren’t middle class in the main. 
As for immigration, wheni canvass for kate on our estates, you meet meet plenty of voters from Afro Caribbean countries that she has helped with immigration issues. Implying she’s a racist is stupid. It is one of the main issues making up her caseload. Brexit is and always should have been seen as a cross party issue, then perhaps we would have had some serious debate, from both sides, but the people spoke with the biggest mandate ever in this country. The Labour Party manifesto clearly states we would honour the referendum and would leave the EU and when I listen to the chattering guardian classes dismissing the views of the majority I’m even more convinced the result of the referendum must be honoured. Kate is one of a tiny group of Labour MPs that represent the wishes of 1/3 of our voters and I’m glad she’s survived every attempt from our right wing local party to dislodged her in the past.


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## alcopop (Jul 28, 2018)

JimW said:


> Not really sort of comment to make about a woman in politics Roy. Plenty of better ways to slag her off.


The use of the word slag might be regarded as a bit contentious too I think?


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## JimW (Jul 28, 2018)

alcopop said:


> The use of the word slag might be regarded as a bit contentious too I think?


Why? Different etymology.


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## alcopop (Jul 28, 2018)

JimW said:


> Why? Different etymology.


Don’t think so, all negative connotations surely.


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## JimW (Jul 28, 2018)

alcopop said:


> Don’t think so, all negative connotations surely.


Negative but not sexist, think it al starts from some old German word for hitting/striking. The meaning of insulting someone derived independently of the perjorative about sexual promiscuousness. And in either case the basic point about thinking of more creative ways to insult women in politics than crude sexual metaphors should be plain without any nit-picking semantics. Or are you fine with the cock-sucking bit?


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## alcopop (Jul 28, 2018)

JimW said:


> Negative but not sexist, think it al starts from some old German word for hitting/striking. The meaning of insulting someone derived independently of the perjorative about sexual promiscuousness. And in either case the basic point about thinking of more creative ways to insult women in politics than crude sexual metaphors should be plain without any nit-picking semantics. Or are you fine with the cock-sucking bit?


No, not at all fine with the cock sucking bit.

I have thought it strange for a long time that homophobic or racist insults are quite rightly not tolerated on urban but misogynistic ones are basically ignored.


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## Gramsci (Jul 28, 2018)

alcopop said:


> No, not at all fine with the cock sucking bit.
> 
> I have thought it strange for a long time that homophobic or racist insults are quite rightly not tolerated on urban but misogynistic ones are basically ignored.



Can you not use this thread as yet another way to have a dig at "urban"?


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## Gramsci (Jul 28, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> Well on my council estate in Vauxhall where I’m a tenant, I have plenty of neighbours who support Brexit, although obviously I accept the majority of people in Vauxhall voted remain- just remember the majority of people over all voted leave, including 1in 3 labour voters, and I promise you they weren’t middle class in the main.
> As for immigration, wheni canvass for kate on our estates, you meet meet plenty of voters from Afro Caribbean countries that she has helped with immigration issues. Implying she’s a racist is stupid. It is one of the main issues making up her caseload. Brexit is and always should have been seen as a cross party issue, then perhaps we would have had some serious debate, from both sides, but the people spoke with the biggest mandate ever in this country. The Labour Party manifesto clearly states we would honour the referendum and would leave the EU and when I listen to the chattering guardian classes dismissing the views of the majority I’m even more convinced the result of the referendum must be honoured. Kate is one of a tiny group of Labour MPs that represent the wishes of 1/3 of our voters and I’m glad she’s survived every attempt from our right wing local party to dislodged her in the past.



Ive posted up Momentum view. Its not just the right wing.

It was a narrow vote to leave.

London working class were not Brexit from my experience. But then I include recent immigrants in my definition of London working class. But under your little Englander definition a lot of these people did not have a say. 

My personal experience of working class outside London is that they support Brexit as they oppose immigration. Particularly recent immigration from EU.

This stuff about chattering classes is rubbish. Kate is regularly on radio. She is as much part of chattering classes as any one else.

This is Brixton Forum. The majority in my area , which is hardly middle class chattering classes , oppose Brexit.


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## Gramsci (Jul 28, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> When I listen to the chattering guardian classes dismissing the views of the majority I’m even more convinced the result of the referendum must be honoured. st.



I've posted up to say this is not the case.

This view is right wing. It is what I hear from Tory Brexit supporters.


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## editor (Jul 28, 2018)

alcopop said:


> I have thought it strange for a long time that homophobic or racist insults are quite rightly not tolerated on urban but misogynistic ones are basically ignored.


But they're not fucking ignored, are they? The poster was rightly pulled up on it. But as has been explained _endlessly_, the mods don't read every single post (up to 2.5k a day) so can't be blamed for any disagreeable posts unless they are reported. Which this was not.


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## Gramsci (Jul 28, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> Well on my council estate in Vauxhall where I’m a tenant, I have plenty of neighbours who support Brexit, although obviously I accept the majority of people in Vauxhall voted remain-



Did your neighbours say why?

Yes majority voted Remain.

So I think Hoey should think about moving somewhere to be MP where people shared her views.

My home town Plymouth for example.


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## alcopop (Jul 28, 2018)

editor said:


> But they're not fucking ignored, are they? The poster was rightly pulled up on it. But as has been explained _endlessly_, the mods don't read every single post (up to 2.5k a day) so can't be blamed for any disagreeable posts unless they are reported. Which this was not.


I was not talking about that particular instance. 

But another place, another time.

It’s really not relevant to this thread.

As you were...


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## Gramsci (Jul 29, 2018)

alcopop said:


> I was not talking about that particular instance.
> 
> But another place, another time.
> 
> ...



Ive asked politely above.

I'll repeat as you still are doing it

	Can you not use this thread as yet another way to have a dig at "urban"?


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## Gramsci (Jul 29, 2018)

Update from Tricky Skills 

Local Labour party passes Motion calling for Kate Hoey to be de-selected as the MP for Vauxhall

A thorough summary of issues.


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## Gramsci (Jul 29, 2018)

Here is Kate hoey on immigration:


> Ms Hoey added: “Uncontrolled immigration is fine for the metropolitan middle classes as they search for a good-value nanny or a competitively priced cleaner. But outside London and the big cities, this abundant supply of cheap labour is not necessarily a guaranteed boon. It can be a curse – driving down wages, taking jobs from the locals, as well as putting pressure on schools and health services.”
> 
> She continued: “It is not anti-immigrant, xenophobic or racist to point this out. It is common sense, and it is what Labour MPs in those areas should be doing.”



From London Labour luvvies betray working class heartlands tackling mass immigration

Its clear from this her views on immigration were no different from UKIP. That she saw this as major reason for voting leave.

With same touch that she was just saying how it is. Unlike metropolitan middle classes ( aka the chattering classes ).

With the added piece at end to deflect criticism by saying this is just common sense.

So summary of her views is that she is speaking up for the common sense of working people outside London.

This kind of thing was said about immigration in 50s and 60s postwar. Why in the end government brought in immigration controls on Commonwealth citizens.

This rhetoric is as just as nasty imo now as it was when directed at other immigrant groups back.then.

And of course it is only brave maverick like Hoey who will speak up. Like back then.


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## oryx (Jul 29, 2018)

Not a Brixton issue obviously, but the same has happened to Frank Field.

Frank Field criticises local Labour members after confidence vote


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## Southlondon (Jul 29, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Did your neighbours say why?
> 
> Yes majority voted Remain.
> 
> ...


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## Southlondon (Jul 29, 2018)

A variety of reasons. -wanting a fairer system of immigration rather than preference for Eu citizens over others from the rest of the world ( next door but one to me is first generation Jamaican immigrant and that’s one of his reasons), the anti trade union stance of the EU ( it’s now almost impossible to call a strike in Greece thanks to EU rules), the way austerity was imposed on the working classes, not wanting to be party to the creation of yet another super power - all sorts of reasons.
Calling us little englanders is pathetic and lazy and smacks of middle class arrogance. The remain minority have done nothing to enhance the debate around leaving. You can sit in your bubble and pretend anyone who doesn’t want to be part of the neo-liberal EU is a racist or a fool, but you’re no different than the middle class idiots who led the remain campaign to failure. If everyone who voted leave was a little englander as you seem to believe UKIP would probably be in power. I repeat the fact that 1/3 of Labour voters are btrexiteers like myself. I have lived my political life supporting militant anti fascism, and fighting for socialism in my own way . I believe in internationalism but really don’t see the EU as the first step to a more egalitarian society, on the contrary when I look at the likes of mandelson, Blair, kinnock, Cameron, osbourne, Campbell etc, it convinces me that the EU is not a club I want to be part of. The Labour Party is committed to leaving, and Corbyn is a consistent leaver ( I guess you see him as a little englander), so I look forward to a snap election returning a Labour government to finish the job of extricating our country from the anti-worker EU. And as for Hoey moving to represent a leave constituency take solace from the fact that the reverse is true in the majority of our working class constituencies where the encumbant MPs are mainly remainers


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## Manter (Jul 29, 2018)

See she's going to fight it....


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## Southlondon (Jul 29, 2018)

Manter said:


> See she's going to fight it....


A lot of party members will weigh up much more than Brexit when they decide whether they want to back her or not. As many posters on here will testify,  she has never been shy to take on the blairitte council when need be, and despite the minuscule grouplet of green councillors, is still likely to be the most effective opposition to some of the councils more regressive policies. She has never had the support of more than a couple of councillors, and as the activists in Vauxhall are overwhelmingly blairittes, any replacement is likely to be in the mould of their invited annual dinner guests- kinnock, twigg, Johnson etc . so their move to deselect her means no more now than it did last time they triggered her and lost.  If her long held and very public stance really is the most important issue to them, then She would lose, if however they feel her support on a range of other issues is on balance more important to them, then she would win. Don’t underestimate her immense personal support in both the party and on the estates where the bulk of our votes come from. It’s the reason why she has survived so long in the blairitte-dominated Vauxhall branch of the party


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## CH1 (Jul 29, 2018)

On a related note - Kate Hoey is 72, Frank Field is 76.
The retirement age for Judges has been 70 since 1993.
On the other hand the age limit for Jurors was recently increased to 75 (from 70).

Apart from possible dementia - old people are inclined to be inflexible and set in their ways.
Nuances of Brexit negotiations are therefore likely to pass them by (I speak from experience!)

I suppose as we do not have the death penalty back (yet) the consequences of government by Gerontocarcy  are not yet fatal.


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## Southlondon (Jul 29, 2018)

CH1 said:


> On a related note - Kate Hoey is 72, Frank Field is 76.
> The retirement age for Judges has been 70 since 1993.
> On the other hand the age limit for Jurors was recently increased to 75 (from 70).
> 
> ...


What a load of ageist shite! So George Soros by your reckoning is likely to be suffering from dementia? People over 70 are not likely to understand the intricacies of Brexit? I don’t what older people you come into contact with, by I know plenty of people 20-30 years older than me, that hold down positions of responsibility, maintain  an amazing work rate and show no signs of dementia. You’re views on the mental capacity of older people are disgusting.


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## Wolveryeti (Jul 29, 2018)

Seems to have accepted a few jollies from Arron Banks: TheyWorkForYou


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## Gramsci (Jul 29, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> A variety of reasons. -wanting a fairer system of immigration rather than preference for Eu citizens over others from the rest of the world ( next door but one to me is first generation Jamaican immigrant and that’s one of his reasons), the anti trade union stance of the EU ( it’s now almost impossible to call a strike in Greece thanks to EU rules), the way austerity was imposed on the working classes, not wanting to be party to the creation of yet another super power - all sorts of reasons.
> Calling us little englanders is pathetic and lazy and smacks of middle class arrogance. The remain minority have done nothing to enhance the debate around leaving. You can sit in your bubble and pretend anyone who doesn’t want to be part of the neo-liberal EU is a racist or a fool, but you’re no different than the middle class idiots who led the remain campaign to failure. If everyone who voted leave was a little englander as you seem to believe UKIP would probably be in power. I repeat the fact that 1/3 of Labour voters are btrexiteers like myself. I have lived my political life supporting militant anti fascism, and fighting for socialism in my own way . I believe in internationalism but really don’t see the EU as the first step to a more egalitarian society, on the contrary when I look at the likes of mandelson, Blair, kinnock, Cameron, osbourne, Campbell etc, it convinces me that the EU is not a club I want to be part of. The Labour Party is committed to leaving, and Corbyn is a consistent leaver ( I guess you see him as a little englander), so I look forward to a snap election returning a Labour government to finish the job of extricating our country from the anti-worker EU. And as for Hoey moving to represent a leave constituency take solace from the fact that the reverse is true in the majority of our working class constituencies where the encumbant MPs are mainly remainers



I was being a bit harsh in previous post. I was not implying you are little Englander. However Kate Hoey reasons for supporting Brexit are imo. She's been quite open about them. Supporting Hoey as she is an Brexit MP is giving credence to her views on Britishness and immigration.

As for your repeated attempts to portray criticism of leaving as middle class. I keep posting examples of working class people I know in London who see Brexit in negative light. Which is all the people I work with and nearly all people I know from my area.

The idea that Brexit will bring "fairer" immigration system isn't going to happen. I heard Brexit Tory politicians trying to set Afro Carribbean against East Europeans during the referendum campaign. Trying to say that if they voted Brexit they would change to allow Commonwealth citizens here. My second generation Afro Carribbean friend here didnt buy that. He saw the hostility to recent EU immigration as similar to what his parents got when they came here. He saw leave campaign as being in large part about immigration. Some of my friends, ordinary working people, have said pretty harsh things to me about those in other parts of UK who voted leave. Including some who have like me come here from other party of  UK. This't about middle class arrogence.

If Hoey line on leaving EU was same as yours I wouldn't have such a problem with it. Its not. She is a little Englander.


I repeat in London all the working people I know ( only two people I know are Brexit. Both for left wing reasons) see Brexit as wrong decision. Its not the same outside London. As I know from personal experience.

I also know people who joined / rejoined Labour party because of Corbyn. They are all remainers. They aren't New Labour supporters.

I keep hearing this line that the remainers were middle class "metropolitans" etc. Its not my experience when I talk with ordinary working people I know.


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## ash (Jul 29, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> I was being a bit harsh in previous post. I was not implying you are little Englander. However Kate Hoey reasons for supporting Brexit are imo. She's been quite open about them. Supporting Hoey as she is an Brexit MP is giving credence to her views on Britishness and immigration.
> 
> As for your repeated attempts to portray criticism of leaving as middle class. I keep posting examples of working class people I know in London who see Brexit in negative light. Which is all the people I work with and nearly all people I know from my area.
> 
> ...



Remainers are unlikely to have joined/rejoined due to Corbyn who is and always has been (back to the old Benn days) an anti EU Brexiteer - his stance on Brexit is appalling


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## Gramsci (Jul 29, 2018)

ash said:


> Remainers are unlikely to have joined/rejoined due to Corbyn who is and always has been (back to the old Benn days) an anti EU Brexiteer - his stance on Brexit is appalling



Well I only can go on people I know. And that is the case.


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## ash (Jul 29, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Well I only can go on people I know. And that is the case.


I’m sure you are correct - many have flocked to Corbyn without considering or acknowledging his anti Europe stance. Labour lost the remainers the vote as they refused to campaign for the remain side. As far as I’m concerned this is the most important political issue of the day.  I agree that Hoey is great on local and personal issues. She phoned my partner to discuss issues he had written to her regarding the welfare reform bill. She was the only human face of the numerous MPs, ministers and Lord that we wrote to at the time.  He however feels Brexit overrides all that and I agree.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 29, 2018)

ash said:


> Labour lost the remainers the vote as they refused to campaign for the remain side.





I seem to remember that - with a few exceptions - labour MPs were campaigning for remain, although most of the media concentrated on the dave v boris circus instead.

And Jeremy Corbyn was pretty active campaigning - not on a 'business as usual' line but 'stay in the EU and make it work better for working people' line, for example arguing that NHS waiting lists are the fault of tory cuts not immigrants.  (although likewise, most of the media didn't report this)

JC was complimented by Angela Eagle during the campaign - 



> “J_eremy is up and down the country, pursuing an agenda that would make a 25-year-old tired. He has not stopped. We are doing our best, but if we are not reported it is difficult_.”



(from left futures - google brings up a guardian article of similar age, but the text seems to have been edited out - maybe when she decided to challenge JC after the referendum.)

should labour just have adopted a "we agree with dave" position and just shared platforms with him and nodded in agreement?  that worked very well for them in the scottish independence campaign...

Dennis Skinner (and a few other labour 'leave' MPs) campaigned for a pro working class leave vote, but I can't find any images of him going on jolly publicity stunts with Nigel Farrago...


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## Wolveryeti (Jul 29, 2018)

ash said:


> Labour lost the remainers the vote as they refused to campaign for the remain side.


Total bollocks. JC did fuckloads of pro-Remain speeches, just not sharing a platform with the Tories. Labour's policy during that period was unambiguously remain, and Labour voters overwhelmingly voted remain (by 65% to 35%).


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## CH1 (Jul 29, 2018)

Southlondon said:


> What a load of ageist shite! So George Soros by your reckoning is likely to be suffering from dementia? People over 70 are not likely to understand the intricacies of Brexit? I don’t what older people you come into contact with, by I know plenty of people 20-30 years older than me, that hold down positions of responsibility, maintain  an amazing work rate and show no signs of dementia. You’re views on the mental capacity of older people are disgusting.


I expect you might think my view of the mental capacity of younger people are also disgusting.

In fact you are just knee-jerking because Katie is singing your song.
I was simply pointing out that there are legal age limits for judges for very good reasons.
Unfortunately this has not arrived at Parliament yet.
I expect you sympathise with Robert Mugabe's plight? He is lucky to have a pension with the amount of people he has killed in his dotage.


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## CH1 (Aug 2, 2018)

Apparently Kate Hoey is in Zimbabwe monitoring the election there according to Patrick Wintour in the Guardian Zimbabwe: UK's bet on post-Mugabe ex-colony hangs in the balance

Apparently she is not happy about the delay in the result and the use of the army to kill demonstrators. Glad she is concerned about a free and fair election - in Zimbabwe.


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## CH1 (Aug 17, 2018)

Hoey enthusiasts have started a Kate Hoey for Leader campaign
Kate Hoey for leader campaign launched


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2018)

CH1 said:


> Hoey enthusiasts have started a Kate Hoey for Leader campaign
> Kate Hoey for leader campaign launched



This made me laugh. Its Kate for leader of Conservative party. 



> Kate's record
> 
> Kate has a long track record of supporting Conservative values. She has been a powerful advocate for fox hunting for decades. She has stood behind the Ulster Unionist cause. Her support for grammar schools, disdain for cyclists (for "holding up the traffic"), public alliance with Nigel Farage, and reliable opposition to immigration - despite representing one of the most diverse communities in the country - mark her out not just as a hero of the cause, but as a leader in waiting.



Hoey for Leader


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## CH1 (Mar 20, 2019)

Kate Hoey this morning sitting grim faced next to Ian Paisley Jr whilst he tries to tie knots round Stephen Farry -the leader of the Alliance Party of Northern Ireland. 
This was a sitting of the Select Committee on Brexit and Northern Ireland.
Kate did a bit of nail-polishing. Reminded me rather of Madam Defarge (who took her knitting to the beheadings in Tale of Two Cities).

Apart from her hard hardheartedness - is Kate actually Labour or DUP?


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## CH1 (Mar 26, 2019)

Someone put this on the Lambeth for Europe Facebook page - following Kate voting with the government yet again this week.


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## BusLanes (Mar 26, 2019)

I assume WEP are gearing up for a crack against Hoey if there is another snap election, now they've got an office in Brixton / Vauxhall


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## CH1 (Mar 26, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> I assume WEP are gearing up for a crack against Hoey if there is another snap election, now they've got an office in Brixton / Vauxhall


WEP stood in Vauxhall in 2017 (first time after they were formed I believe)

They got 539 votes (0.7%) - you need to get 5% of the votes to save your £500 deposit. So I guess it depends if they are feeling lucky - or rich!


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## BusLanes (Mar 27, 2019)

CH1 said:


> WEP stood in Vauxhall in 2017 (first time after they were formed I believe)
> 
> They got 539 votes (0.7%) - you need to get 5% of the votes to save your £500 deposit. So I guess it depends if they are feeling lucky - or rich!



Well they'll feel rich anyway.

If they get out quickly and capture national media attention, which they didn't last time, that will make a difference.

My long theory is that they would use it as a national PR stunt


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## Southlondon (Mar 27, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> Well they'll feel rich anyway.
> 
> If they get out quickly and capture national media attention, which they didn't last time, that will make a difference.
> 
> My long theory is that they would use it as a national PR stunt


Hoey is still an immensely popular MP on the estates in Vauxhall due to the volume of case work she carries out for the residents. She’s really good on immigration and housing issues, and is the residents last defence when they are up against the actions of the right wing Lambeth labour council. She was one of a handful of Labour MPs that voted against benefit cuts, and has stood literally shoulder to shoulder with residents getting evicted by the council from Lambeth short life tenancy homes that they had lived in for decades. She voted against the criminalisation of squatting in commercial properties, and had supported residents as they fought against the demolition of their estates. The local party gave her minimal support at the last election yet she massively increased her majority as her personal vote is very solid. Many people still remember how she sacrificed her ministerial career to vote against the Iraq war, and how she refused to bow down to Blair. The idea that the WEP or any other party could dislodge her at the next election if she chooses to run is fantasy. On Europe she is at odds with the majority of the Vauxhall constituents for sure, but when it comes to the day to day issues we face in Vauxhall she is an extremely hard working and responsive local MP. If Vauxhall Labour manage to dislodge her ( they failed massively at their last attempt), the replacement is likely to be a right wing candidate in the mould of Chukka  Umana as that would reflect the make up of the local party. I would rather have Kate to be honest.


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## ash (Mar 27, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> Hoey is still an immensely popular MP on the estates in Vauxhall due to the volume of case work she carries out for the residents. She’s really good on immigration and housing issues, and is the residents last defence when they are up against the actions of the right wing Lambeth labour council. She was one of a handful of Labour MPs that voted against benefit cuts, and has stood literally shoulder to shoulder with residents getting evicted by the council from Lambeth short life tenancy homes that they had lived in for decades. She voted against the criminalisation of squatting in commercial properties, and had supported residents as they fought against the demolition of their estates. The local party gave her minimal support at the last election yet she massively increased her majority as her personal vote is very solid. Many people still remember how she sacrificed her ministerial career to vote against the Iraq war, and how she refused to bow down to Blair. The idea that the WEP or any other party could dislodge her at the next election if she chooses to run is fantasy. On Europe she is at odds with the majority of the Vauxhall constituents for sure, but when it comes to the day to day issues we face in Vauxhall she is an extremely hard working and responsive local MP. If Vauxhall Labour manage to dislodge her ( they failed massively at their last attempt), the replacement is likely to be a right wing candidate in the mould of Chukka  Umana as that would reflect the make up of the local party. I would rather have Kate to be honest.


 I understand all of this - members of my family have had phone discussions with her when welfare reform was going through and would have agreed with your sentiments at the time. I do however feel that Brexit, implications on us all and her increasingly bizarre involvement with the extremist Brexiteers is far more important now  and her attitude is unforgivable and untenable for someone in her position.


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## Southlondon (Mar 27, 2019)

ash said:


> I understand all of this - members of my family have had phone discussions with her when welfare reform was going through and would have agreed with your sentiments at the time. I do however feel that Brexit, implications on us all and her increasingly bizarre involvement with the extremist Brexiteers is far more important now  and her attitude is unforgivable and untenable for someone in her position.


That’s your opinion, but she has been consistent with her views on leaving the EU over the years, so I would have been very surprised if she had belatedly shifted her position to fall in line with the Vauxhall residents. There are plenty of Labour MPs that represent the labour remainders, but very few that represent the wishes of the 1 in 3 Labour voters that voted Leave.


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## BusLanes (Mar 27, 2019)

I canvassed estates in Vauxhall in 17 and whilst will agree KH was well known and liked by long term residents there were many who don't know her. There was also little knowledge that she was for Leave.  Many on the estates voted remain and were shocked when they realised she was on the Farage end of the Leave spectrum.

Fast forward 2 years and she's gone off the deep end and now runs with the DUP /Tory whip on Brexit and I bet that is now widely known.


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## Southlondon (Mar 27, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> I canvassed estates in Vauxhall in 17 and whilst will agree KH was well known and liked by long term residents there were many who don't know her. There was also little knowledge that she was for Leave.  Many on the estates voted remain and were shocked when they realised she was on the Farage end of the Leave spectrum.
> 
> Fast forward 2 years and she's gone off the deep end and now runs with the DUP /Tory whip on Brexit and I bet that is now widely known.


I also canvassed heavily on the estates at the election, and had a different experience to yours. I was with Kate when Vice journalists were present trying to get a piece together on how she was at odds with the electorate over Brexit. As we went door to door with activists from the local TRA, there was overwhelming support for her and despite their best efforts they struggled to find voters that weren’t supporting her. Brexit really was not a big issue on the doorstep despite the lical LibDems making it a focal point of their campaign. Amongst my neighbors on my estate they see her as a strong campaigner against the estate demolitions being implemented by the Local Labour Council. As an MP she has a high profile in the community unlike many local MPs that are never seen at TRA meetings. I’d still rather have her than a chukka umana or Steven kinnock type representative. Her views on BREXIT have minimal imapact in the general scheme of things


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## Winot (Mar 27, 2019)

She’d be better off in a northern constituency.


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## Southlondon (Mar 27, 2019)

Winot said:


> She’d be better off in a northern constituency.


As a council tennant I’m very glad she’s my MP.


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## butchersapron (Mar 27, 2019)

Winot said:


> She’d be better off in a northern constituency.


Blimey. And just thrown out there like that as if it's nothing.


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## killer b (Mar 27, 2019)

what the fuck


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## killer b (Mar 27, 2019)

we _are_ all racists in the north tbf.


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## cuppa tee (Mar 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> we _are_ all racists in the north tbf.


I'm a northerner living in London and the idea that we are a bit dodge is fairly common among some groupings in the community.


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## BusLanes (Mar 27, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> I also canvassed heavily on the estates at the election, and had a different experience to yours. I was with Kate when Vice journalists were present trying to get a piece together on how she was at odds with the electorate over Brexit. As we went door to door with activists from the local TRA, there was overwhelming support for her and despite their best efforts they struggled to find voters that weren’t supporting her. Brexit really was not a big issue on the doorstep despite the lical LibDems making it a focal point of their campaign. Amongst my neighbors on my estate they see her as a strong campaigner against the estate demolitions being implemented by the Local Labour Council. As an MP she has a high profile in the community unlike many local MPs that are never seen at TRA meetings. I’d still rather have her than a chukka umana or Steven kinnock type representative. Her views on BREXIT have minimal imapact in the general scheme of things



Oh I do expect your experiences would differ.

Anyway, my experience of the campaign was that Corbyn's non brexit policies (£10 nmw etc) actually swung support back to Labour mid campaign, then the OM's ineptness with her policies locked that in.


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## happyshopper (Mar 27, 2019)

I respect what Southlondon heard on the doorstep. But the Labour vote in Vauxhall in 2017 was actually a bit anemic, compared to elsewhere in Inner London. And tenanted estates, where South London found support, are no longer so dominant in the constituency as they once were.


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## Winot (Mar 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> we _are_ all racists in the north tbf.



You've missed my point. Southlondon referenced the fact that she represented the 1 in 3 Labour voters that voted leave. There are more of them in northern constituencies, aren't there? So the only point I was making is that the dissonance between her views on Brexit and those of the voters of Vauxhall wouldn't be as much of a problem if she had a northern seat.


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## ash (Mar 27, 2019)

Winot said:


> She’d be better off in a northern constituency.


Like Belfast maybe


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## ash (Mar 27, 2019)

ash said:


> Like Belfast maybe


 That was tongue in cheek before I get slated for being sectarian bty


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## Southlondon (Mar 27, 2019)

Winot said:


> You've missed my point. Southlondon referenced the fact that she represented the 1 in 3 Labour voters that voted leave. There are more of them in northern constituencies, aren't there? So the only point I was making is that the dissonance between her views on Brexit and those of the voters of Vauxhall wouldn't be as much of a problem if she had a northern seat.


Agreed, but she has put down strong local roots. on Local issues she is bang on side with the residents. She attends TRA meetings regularly, and on local campaigns like the housing activists fighting the council for their homes, or the successful campaign to save  our main post office when it was threatened with closure, or using her sports contacts to secure us an amazing sports hub in the middle of 2 of our largest estates etc, she is very much connected with her constituents. If MPs shuffled around to ensure they are in line with the constituents on every national issue would mean losing the local knowledge built up over decades.


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## Southlondon (Mar 27, 2019)

ash said:


> That was tongue in cheek before I get slated for being sectarian bty


Of course she was born and raised in rural Northern Ireland, but since uni she has lived in London. She’s as much a Londoner as anyone else who makes our city their home, regardless of their place of birth


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## Winot (Mar 27, 2019)

ash said:


> That was tongue in cheek before I get slated for being sectarian bty



I'm sure no one on Urban would jump to conclusions about another poster's motives without properly considering their post.


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## ash (Mar 27, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> Of course she was born and raised in rural Northern Ireland, but since uni she has lived in London. She’s as much a Londoner as anyone else who makes our city their home, regardless of their place of birth



Jut trying to lighten the mood a little in these times of humour austerity


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## killer b (Mar 27, 2019)

Winot said:


> You've missed my point. Southlondon referenced the fact that she represented the 1 in 3 Labour voters that voted leave. There are more of them in northern constituencies, aren't there? So the only point I was making is that the dissonance between her views on Brexit and those of the voters of Vauxhall wouldn't be as much of a problem if she had a northern seat.


it's almost as if there's more to a politician than their position on brexit. fancy.


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## BusLanes (Mar 27, 2019)

Hoey actually quite often sort of sides with opposition on local issues where the Labour council is on the other side of the issue.


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## RoyReed (Mar 27, 2019)

She was the chair of the hunting/shooting/fishing Countryside Alliance for 10 years (with a very nice salary), Stonewall labelled her the least gay-friendly Labour MP and she was in favour of Paris rather than London getting the 2012 Olympic Games.

Great credentials for an inner city MP.


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## mauvais (Mar 27, 2019)

Winot said:


> She’d be better off in a northern constituency.





ash said:


> Like Belfast maybe


Or Rockall.


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## Gramsci (Mar 28, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> That’s your opinion, but she has been consistent with her views on leaving the EU over the years, so I would have been very surprised if she had belatedly shifted her position to fall in line with the Vauxhall residents. There are plenty of Labour MPs that represent the labour remainders, but very few that represent the wishes of the 1 in 3 Labour voters that voted Leave.



Kate Hoey is no left wing Lexiter.

Her views on Britishness are no different from the UKIP and the DUP.

As Irish friend of mine from Northern Ireland said to me her politics aren't that different. Its her background.


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## Gramsci (Mar 28, 2019)

killer b said:


> we _are_ all racists in the north tbf.



You are on Brixton forum. 

Lambeth , like all inner London boroughs , was large majority for Remain. 

And yes a quite a number of people I know think that. And they aren't all middle class Guardian readers. 

Friend of mine in London originally from up North told me she can't talk to her relatives in Yorkshire about Brexit. Her exact words "its a bit racist up North".

She isn't the only one I've heard this from.


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## Gramsci (Mar 28, 2019)

Winot said:


> You've missed my point. Southlondon referenced the fact that she represented the 1 in 3 Labour voters that voted leave. There are more of them in northern constituencies, aren't there? So the only point I was making is that the dissonance between her views on Brexit and those of the voters of Vauxhall wouldn't be as much of a problem if she had a northern seat.



Caroline Flint MP , who was a Remainer, in a leave constituency has accepted the leave vote. Now supports leave. She listened to her voters. 

Kate Hoey has not at any point softened her views. 

To criticize her for being leaver is missing that fact that she is the right wing of the leaving side.


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## Gramsci (Mar 28, 2019)

Imo for those who support Brexit having an Brexit MP like Hoey in an inner London constituency just confirms Remainers in London views on Brexit supporters.


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## ash (Mar 28, 2019)

killer b said:


> it's almost as if there's more to a politician than their position on brexit. fancy.


Apart from the fact this is the most important political pivot (for all of these Islands) in any of our living memories and for long to come!


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## redsquirrel (Mar 28, 2019)

ash said:


> Apart from the fact this is the most important political pivot (for all of these Islands) in any of our living memories and for long to come!


Not for me and not for millions of others. Which is why Labour did better at the last election than most expected. 


Gramsci said:


> Friend of mine in London originally from up North told me she can't talk to her relatives in Yorkshire about Brexit. Her exact words "its a bit racist up North".
> 
> She isn't the only one I've heard this from.


The fact that she's from up here originally doesn't make it any less daft a statement. It's this type of patronising nonsense that helped Leave win.


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## Gramsci (Mar 28, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Not for me and not for millions of others. Which is why Labour did better at the last election than most expected.
> The fact that she's from up here originally doesn't make it any less daft a statement. It's this type of patronising nonsense that helped Leave win.



You aren't from Brixton. Your posting on Brixton Forum. I live here I know my patch. 

Chuka did well at last election. And he always was Remainer. In his constituency most people are Remainers. 

Central Brixton is gentrified but outside that are still large Council estates. My Council Ward , which includes central Brixton, is classified as deprived. Outside the new "vibrant" central Brixton people aren't that well off. 

Areas of inner city London have communities that have been "left behind". Just as much as communities up North I keep hearing about in media. But I don't hear much about the left behind communities in central London.  

The idea that London is full of Guardian reading cosmopolitans is more than annoying. 

The residents in my area , Loughborough Junction , are left behind community. 

See this recent report of mine on public meeting after recent murder.

Report from the public meeting on community safety in the Loughborough Junction area, Thurs 21st Mar 2019

One of the worst things about the EU referendum was that a major element of it was people using it to give the establishment a good kicking. This had nothing to do with being in the EU. 

Feeling not listened to etc as shown in my report above didnt mean that people in my area supported Brexit.


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## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2019)

How did Hoey do in the GE?


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## Gramsci (Mar 28, 2019)

Kate Hoey

Vauxhall parliamentary constituency - Election 2017

As a comparison Chuka:

Streatham parliamentary constituency - Election 2017

Bigger increase for Chuka.

 Kate got 3.6% increase. LDs got 13.7% increase in her constituency. Which I put down to her Brexit views losing her bigger vote which Chuka got. 

Chuka got 15.5% increase. All other parties lost votes in his constituency.


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## oryx (Mar 29, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Friend of mine in London originally from up North told me she can't talk to her relatives in Yorkshire about Brexit. Her exact words "its a bit racist up North".
> 
> She isn't the only one I've heard this from.



I usually really like your posts and views Gramsci but I have to challenge you on this one.

I'm sort of in the same boat as your mate (Northerner in London) but I know loads of people in the North including Yorkshire who voted remain and vice versa (London people who voted Leave). IIRC Manchester, Liverpool and certainly my hometown of York voted Remain.

I don't think that making it so binary really helps. What your mate has said is as divisive as people up North going on about the London metropolitan bubble as if just by living here we all voted Remain to keep up the supply of prosecco and Brie. And people in London etc. portraying people further north than Potters Bar as uneducated racists...it's for these reasons that the country is becoming horribly divided and some of that attitude is some of the reason why people voted Leave.

As for 'it's a bit racist up North'... well I don't even know where to begin.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 29, 2019)

What oryx said


Gramsci said:


> The idea that London is full of Guardian reading cosmopolitans is more than annoying.


Yes it is, like the dismissal of millions of people living in the north as racists is much more than annoying.
"Left behind"* communities can be found all over the UK.

People from all over the UK voted for Leave, even in London you had a Leave vote of 40%. And they voted Leave for all kinds of reasons. 

There are strong majorities in this country for more restrictive immigration policies (and the size of those majorities indicates that they must include significant numbers of Remain voters). There are also strong majorities that are appalled by the Windrush scandal (and again the size means there must be Leave voters in this majority), even though it was the former that led to the latter.   

The catagorisation of people that have voted Leave, who are concerned about the impact of immigration, who have voted UKIP as racists has only benefitted the hard-right. A small minority of people are ideological racists, the rest of us, whether we voted leave, remain or abstained, cannot and should not be categorised as racist or not racist.  

*hate that phrase, these communities weren't left behind they were systematically attacked.


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## CH1 (Mar 29, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> The catagorisation of people that have voted Leave, who are concerned about the impact of immigration


Surely this is what our Prime Minister has been banging the drum for these last three years  - despite her own failure to implement a fair immigration policy as Home Secretary (hostile environment/Windrush generation etc etc). In her view the priority of the "British People" (as expressed in the EU referendum) was to control EU immigration.

About the only non-racist policy under May 1 was the reduction of stop and search, which now has been reversed due to the increase in stabbings of young people.


----------



## Southlondon (Mar 29, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Kate Hoey
> 
> Vauxhall parliamentary constituency - Election 2017
> 
> ...


She still had a majority twice the size of the LibDem total vote, plus the LibDems made it a national target seat and swamped Vauxhall with activists, whilst Vauxhall Labour activists went into Battersea and Southwark. She is one of the few MPs who genuinely does have a massive personal vote


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## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> She still had a majority twice the size of the LibDem total vote, plus the LibDems made it a national target seat and swamped Vauxhall with activists, whilst Vauxhall Labour activists went into Battersea and Southwark. She is one of the few MPs who genuinely does have a massive personal vote


She'd be better off up north. May stand a chance


----------



## tim (Mar 29, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Friend of mine in London originally from up North told me she can't talk to her relatives in Yorkshire about Brexit. Her exact words "its a bit racist up North".
> 
> She isn't the only one I've heard this from.



I love your use of the old "friend of mine from up North" story, to justify your own prejudices.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 29, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Surely this is what our Prime Minister has been banging the drum for these last three years  - despite her own failure to implement a fair immigration policy as Home Secretary (hostile environment/Windrush generation etc etc). In her view the priority of the "British People" (as expressed in the EU referendum) was to control EU immigration.


Maybe it's just because I'm tired but I'm struggling to understand your point. Polls have show a strong majority of people in the UK want more restrictive immigration controls. That majority will include  both people that voted leave and people that voted remain.


----------



## CH1 (Mar 29, 2019)

tim said:


> I love your use of the old "friend of mine from up North" story, to justify your own prejudices.


"Up North" is incredibly diverse.

There is the mega-University city of Manchester (also the twin HQ of the BBC) where they are as Remain as Streatham.

Then you have places like Burnley and Oldham with a history of community segregation and riots. Not to mention the so-called Rotherham grooming gangs. These places tend to favour extreme politics - George Galloway in Bradford for 3 years 2012-2015 for example. They're also likely to favour UKIP/BNP/BREXIT.

Then again you have the Cumbria and Lake District which don't seem to make it into the headlines.

Then there is the overseas worker grudge. Stoke on Trent has been a UKIP hotspot, not to mention Lincolnshire where the use of EU labour in agriculture seems to have provoked serious hostility. 

It should also be noted that the government refugee dispersal policy means a lot of refugees are not housed in London and end up in places like Stoke.

Not sure what the real answer is to EU workers picking the sprouts. Especially as this has been going on for years. Are the allegedly feckless British youths to be trained and coerced into sprout picking - against their wishes? Is this really a case of if you can't shit, get off the pot? 

"An old friend of mine" was telling me about the Amazon fulfilment centre in Gourock (a rural location near Glasgow). Apparently this warehouse runs on EU migrant labour, who are happy to sleep in cars and camper vans out in the car park. We don't know whether this exploitation enrages the people of Glasgow who benefit from it - but it seems likely that Glaswegians don't wiosh to commute to Gourock to work in the Amazon warehouse for minimum wage - or they would be doing it.

Anyhow I think people ought to think about defining which part of up north they mean. Otherwise how can we have a meaningful discussion?


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## CH1 (Mar 29, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Maybe it's just because I'm tired but I'm struggling to understand your point. Polls have show a strong majority of people in the UK want more restrictive immigration controls. That majority will include  both people that voted leave and people that voted remain.


But not Tim Martin of Wetherspoons - performing outside Parliament today.


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## Gramsci (Mar 29, 2019)

tim said:


> I love your use of the old "friend of mine from up North" story, to justify your own prejudices.



Rather than listen to opinion polls I chat to people and see what they think. 

Its not my prejudices. 

In London I know several people who are from "up North" who can't talk to their relatives in the North about Brexit. 

Also my brother in Plymouth, a Remainer in Brexit area, whose totally frustrated by it.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 29, 2019)

CH1 said:


> But not Tim Martin of Wetherspoons - performing outside Parliament today.



Was he there? I've got some time for him. He is the libertarian right of Brexit. Not UKIP. 

I was around Parliament Square when all the Union Jack wavers were there. Bemused foreign tourists were wondering why roads closed off. I felt somewhat ashamed of this country.


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## Gramsci (Mar 29, 2019)

tim said:


> I love your use of the old "friend of mine from up North" story, to justify your own prejudices.



Part of my "prejudices" might be to do with my everyday life.

This morning Council had the builders in my flat. So chatting to the Romanians. My partner left for work-Spanish.

Stop at cafe on way to work- Italians.

Go to work. Deal with security guards. None are from UK. Chatting to the East European receptionist at one office. Helping my friend the Pakastani van driver.

Stop at my local convenience store on way home. Chat to the Polish women I know who works there.

That's my life in central London.

Most of my day in London is spent with recent migrants or second generation.

Brexit came up today. We were saying how crap it was.


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## Gramsci (Mar 29, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> She still had a majority twice the size of the LibDem total vote, plus the LibDems made it a national target seat and swamped Vauxhall with activists, whilst Vauxhall Labour activists went into Battersea and Southwark. She is one of the few MPs who genuinely does have a massive personal vote



Quite honestly do you think her views on Brexit are progressive?

She is not a Lexit supporter. 

She has made it quite clear what her views on immigration and being patriotic are. They aren't that different from the DUP.


----------



## CH1 (Mar 29, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Was he there? I've got some time for him. He is the libertarian right of Brexit. Not UKIP.
> 
> I was around Parliament Square when all the Union Jack wavers were there. Bemused foreign tourists were wondering why roads closed off. I felt somewhat ashamed of this country.


He was there - there was a long distance shot of him on stage on TV but they didn't report what he said. 

I'm reporting his views based on several Question Time appearances plus interviews on Newsnight, Radio 4 news etc.

And of course I had the "pleasure" of hearing him hold forth in the Beehive last year. Unlike some of the early morning drinkers, I was strictly on coffee, so I believe I got a fairly accurate impression.

Regarding the demonstrators today Georgina Stubbs from Press Association tweeted this about Yaxley-Lennons crowd harassing Channel 4 News people.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 29, 2019)

oryx said:


> I usually really like your posts and views Gramsci but I have to challenge you on this one.
> 
> I'm sort of in the same boat as your mate (Northerner in London) but I know loads of people in the North including Yorkshire who voted remain and vice versa (London people who voted Leave). IIRC Manchester, Liverpool and certainly my hometown of York voted Remain.
> 
> ...



Its also why some Londoners I know eventually voted Remain. One I know wasnt sure. Bumped into him after referendum. He told me in last week run up to referendum be decided to vote Remain. It was UKIP and people banging on about immigration that made him vote Remain.

So it worked both ways. Im not that keen on EU. But it appears to forgotten that UKIP / Tory right were pushing Brexit.

One of the things I objected to about the referendum is that the three million EU nationals didn't get a say. Some of them have been here for years.

My Polish friend had been her for ten years. As far as I'm concerned she is part of UK community. A decision gets taken which affects her future yet she to no say in it.

Take your point not everyone outside London voted leave. My brother is Remainer in Plymouth.I looked at breakdown of Plymouth vote and it was majority leave but some part of Plymouth were remain. So it was mixed picture on closer look. So take your criticism on that one. 

Its that after two years nothing has been done to make decision that can bring leavers and Remainers together.

I also think this has split people in ways not seen before.

I have friends in Lambeth who went on march last Saturday. To my surprise. As Im not sure a second vote is good idea. They are way to left of New Labour. Not difficult in Lambeth. The left is split. The kind of people I know in Brixton who one would think are basically left are all Remainers.

I can only think of one I know and he is Lexit.

I think the country is becoming more divided. I could have lived with a Brexit that didn't give my East European friends a hard time for example. Its not going to happen.

Going back to Hoey. As Brexit MP in Remainer London she's done nothing to listen and try and bring Remainers and Brexit together.


----------



## ash (Mar 29, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Part of my "prejudices" might be to do with my everyday life.
> 
> This morning Council had the builders in my flat. So chatting to the Romanians. My partner left for work-Spanish.
> 
> ...


Me too xx


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## tim (Mar 29, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Part of my "prejudices" might be to do with my everyday life.
> 
> This morning Council had the builders in my flat. So chatting to the Romanians. My partner left for work-Spanish.
> 
> ...




 "It's a bit racist up North". Strikes me as being a bit racist. It's a cliché that says so much about your attitudes and little about the  people you sneer and seek to "other".


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## Gramsci (Mar 29, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> What oryx said
> 
> Yes it is, like the dismissal of millions of people living in the north as racists is much more than annoying.
> "Left behind"* communities can be found all over the UK.
> ...



London the vote was over 70% for Remain in the inner city boroughs like Lambeth. It grew less the further out the borough went.

So my patch inner London was overwhelmingly Remain.

Not a surprise to me. On my local estate majority are Black British. Second generation immigrants. Inner London, despite gentrification , still has large working class communities in social housing.

Agree on your definition of Left Behind.

On UKIP voters. The perspective of an Afro Carribbean working class guy whose father came here in 60s to Brixton is another view. I was talking to him in run up to referendum. His view of UKIP was that it was the NF wearing blazers. He grew up in Brixton in 70s. London then was not such a tolerant place. He was ok in Brixton venture out and might encounter racism.

He told me he thought the way people were raising concerns about immigration now was the same as directed at his father's generation.

Back then it was the NF recently it was UKIP.

From his perspective as working class Black British person a vote for UKIP is a racist vote.

Back post war it was easy for Commonwealth citizens to come here. Concerns about immigration led to the relative free movement of Commonwealth citizens to be restricted. He saw that complaints about Poles etc would lead to similar restrictions. Which they have.


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## Gramsci (Mar 29, 2019)

tim said:


> "It's a bit racist up North". Strikes me as being a bit racist. It's a cliché that says so much about your attitudes and little about the  people you sneer and seek to "other".



I was recounting a conversation I had with someone I know originally from the North. 

Actually two conversations as another receptionist I know said the same.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I was recounting a conversation I had with someone I know originally from the North.
> 
> Actually two conversations as another receptionist I know said the same.




Wookey was using the very same argument a couple of weeks ago to excuse himself for apologism of an idiot who described those of us who are BAME as having 'a funny tinge' so I wouldn't worry about defending your recounting of such ideas.


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## Wookey (Mar 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Wookey was using the very same argument a couple of weeks ago to excuse himself for apologism of an idiot who described those of us who are BAME as having 'a funny tinge' so I wouldn't worry about defending your recounting of such ideas.



Just remember, your opinions of racism are no more or less valid than mine.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)

Wookey said:


> Just remember, your opinions of racism are no more or less valid than mine.



...you, just fit to bursting with experiences of racism and dealing with it. Right. I'll just remember what an arse you are. There's a start.


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## Wookey (Mar 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> ...you, just fit to bursting with experiences of racism and dealing with it. Right. I'll just remember what an arse you are. There's a start.



There's no need to try and be offensive. I'm not your enemy.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)

Wookey said:


> There's no need to try and be offensive. I'm not your enemy.



Demonstrating that you have little to no actual experiences of racism yet think you can lecture on it isn't trying to be offensive, it's pointing out the bloody obvious.


----------



## Wookey (Mar 30, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Demonstrating that you have little to no actual experiences of racism yet think you can lecture on it isn't trying to be offensive, it's pointing out the bloody obvious.



We were talking about a white woman at the time, who had clumsily tried to cover up racist language. I happen to have one of those as a mother, so I speak from direct experience of a lifetime of living with someone very like the person we were discussing.

I think you assume far too much of my life experience to be making statements like the above, about a stranger on the internet.

And yours isn't the only experience of racism, or opinion on it, that's valid. That's pointing out the bloody obvious, and yet you seem to quite forcefully reject that notion. I just thought I'd remind you.

I'm not lecturing you, and never have. That's your interpretation. I don't expect you to listen to me at all! In fact, you are more than welcome to ignore everything I ever say, forever more!

But please don't call me out on a thread I am not taking part in, with your rudeness and your inexactitude, ever again.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 30, 2019)

Wookey said:


> We were talking about a white woman at the time, who had clumsily tried to cover up racist language. I happen to have one of those as a mother, so I speak from direct experience of a lifetime of living with someone very like the person we were discussing.


 Referring to people who aren't White as being a funny tinge isn't clumsy language, it's dodgy as fuck and racism...Whether your mother is/was that way inclined is irrelevant. It's still what it is.



> I think you assume far too much of my life experience to be making statements like the above, about a stranger on the internet.
> 
> And yours isn't the only experience of racism, or opinion on it, that's valid. That's pointing out the bloody obvious, and yet you seem to quite forcefully reject that notion. I just thought I'd remind you.



I've not assumed much at all, i've reflected the very things you have posted and given away. If you had more experiences other than your mother you'd have whipped them out as evidence of your almighty credentials before now, especially on that other thread you made a massive tit of yourself. But you don't.. you just think having a parent who _*to you*_ didn't realise that she had internalised racism and said bigoted things meant that no harm was or is being done.

You were very clear in your assertion that _the North is a bit racist _hence you being tagged here_._


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## Wookey (Mar 30, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Referring to people who aren't White as being a funny tinge isn't clumsy language, it's dodgy as fuck and racism...Whether your mother is/was that way inclined is irrelevant. It's still what it is.



And I'm lecturing you? 

I didn't say it was clumsy language, please take the time to read again. I said she _clumsily tried to cover up racist language_. That's something that some perfectly normal people do every day, because they're imbued with an inherited societal racism which they know to be wrong, yet which nonetheless continues as an ingrained attitude and needs to be challenged internally (by thinking), and acted upon externally (by not speaking or acting on it).

The woman in question has a deeply inherited concept of racial otherness. Millions of people do I think, and even if they say they aren't racist, that doesn't dissolve all those taught, social level racist responses that many white people are brought up with from birth, and who are later educated into a more informed perspective.



> If you had more experiences other than your mother you'd have whipped them out as evidence of your almighty credentials before now, especially on that other thread you made a massive tit of yourself. But you don't.. you just think having a parent who _*to you*_ didn't realise that she had internalised racism and said bigoted things meant that no harm was or is being done.



I wouldn't have whipped anything out for you. I'm not that kind of guy.

Really Rutita1 , you have no idea of the rich tapestry of my life and family, just the tiny slices I might put on here that you clearly misunderstand at the time, half-remember and then squeeze into your somewhat one-dimensional pre-formed narrative. You're assuming, perhaps because I'm a white man, what my experience is. That's narrow-minded. And I'm not going to "evidence my credentials" in order to have a valid opinion on racism. That's just offensive.



> You were very clear in your assertion that _the North is a bit racist _hence you being tagged here_._



I have no idea what this thread is about, I wouldn't read a thread with "Hoey" in the title, as the woman brings me out in hives.


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## Gramsci (Mar 31, 2019)

Getting back to the thread.

Kate on her Twitter proudly said she was at the Brexit demo last Friday:



I saw some of this. It was UKIP flag wavers and the far right who she is associating with. Appaling for an inner London MP to do this.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 31, 2019)

wrong post


----------



## RoyReed (Apr 1, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Apr 1, 2019)

RoyReed said:


>




Looking at the Twitter account it looks like the Progress/ New Labour party of Lambeth Labour.

Its why I think the whole Brexit thing is a disaster.

I loathe New Labour / Progress but also I'm against Brexit.

Brexit imo has not only divided the country its done it in ways that disrupt the traditional left / right divide.

See it here on Urban politics boards.

Interestingly on Brixton Forum its something we don't really argue about. We hate each other on gentrification issues. On Brexit , as in Lambeth generally, most aren't in favour of Brexit.


----------



## Tolpuddle (May 28, 2019)

https://brexitcentral.com/we-should...success-and-include-them-in-the-negotiations/

Thanks Kate.


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## Pickman's model (May 28, 2019)

Tolpuddle said:


> https://brexitcentral.com/we-should...success-and-include-them-in-the-negotiations/
> 
> Thanks Kate.


this would be the brexit party backed by about 1/8 of the electorate


----------



## CH1 (May 28, 2019)

Tolpuddle said:


> https://brexitcentral.com/we-should...success-and-include-them-in-the-negotiations/
> 
> Thanks Kate.


If they can expel Alistair Campbell, why not Kate? She has several times voted against her own whip in Brexit votes.
Her attitude is positively Mosleyite if you ask me.


----------



## CH1 (May 28, 2019)

I would think the fact that Lambeth has the largest swing in the country to the Lib Dems in the Euros might possibly be at least partly due to our esteemed Member for Vauxhall:


----------



## Gramsci (May 29, 2019)

The thing about Hoey is that she is hard-line Unionist No Deal Brexiteer. 

She always has been.

May had a deal to leave. Not good enough for Hoey. 

She is presenting Brexit party as a bunch of reasonable people who just want democracy to work. 

I agree with CH1 her politics about Brexit are positively right wing in an Ulster Unionist way.

She's never lost her roots despite being an inner city London MP for years.


----------



## eoin_k (May 29, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The thing about Hoey is that she is hard-line Unionist No Deal Brexiteer.
> 
> She always has been.
> 
> [...]



Not quite always ... if we go back in her IMG days FWIW.


----------



## Gramsci (May 29, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> Not quite always ... if we go back in her IMG days FWIW.



Yes I know. That was years ago.

I can understand her being Brexit. But given she's been inner London MP for years I don't find her right wing Brexit views acceptable.

In her article she never once mentions her own constituents. How to reconcile their Remain views to Brexit. how to have a Brexit that brings the country together. Her attitude is you lost so just live with it. Plus any deal that is a compromise like Mays is to be rejected. She wants hard no deal Brexit. Waving the Union Jack.

And Remainers aren't just the establishment she goes on about.


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## happyshopper (Jun 26, 2019)

OK, game on. Faced with the possibility of a snap general election the Labour Party has given all sitting Labour MPs two weeks to indicate whether they wish to be considered for reselection. If Hoey says she doesn't want to be considered, that's it; we've got rid of her. Goodness knows whom we will get instead, but that's another issue.

If she says she does wish to stand again it gets more complicated. It's easier than it was for members to get another candidate, but it's still complicated. There's a process called mandatory reselection (sic) but this is only triggered if either one of two conditions are met. If they aren't met then she just becomes the candidate, although there's what's normally a formal endorsement by the National Executive.

The circumstances in which a full selection process is triggered is if either:
a) more than one third of the local ward based branches say they want a full selection; or
b) more than one third of the organisations that have affiliated branches to the constituency party, i.e. trade union branches, local Co-op Party, etc., say they want a full selection.

My guess is that she has now enraged enough people to ensure that all or almost all ward branches will call for a full selection process. So that's what we will get. But that's not necessarily the end for Hoey, as she has the right to be considered as part of the subsequent selection process.  

The selection process itself is also complicated but, essentially, there's nominations, drawing up a short-list and then a vote of the Party members. Again, my guess is that Hoey would not win but I've heard Party members saying that she does still have the support of the less actively engaged members. Given the threat of an election this would all have to take place over the summer.

And it you are not already a member it's probably too late for you to join in.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 28, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> Not quite always ... if we go back in her IMG days FWIW.


This extract from The Irish Cedar Lounge Revolution blog in 2008 stunned me!

9. NollaigO - May 1, 2008 

Kate Hoey’s political history:
The comments in the above posts on her upbringing are probably accurate. Of interest is the fact that her uncle was a NILP supporter and BBC political commentator, John Cole.
Living in London in the early 1970s she became a vice-president of the NUS.[Jack Straw was NUS president at the time]. Returning from an overseas conference, she found herself sitting next to Tariq Ali on the plane. Tariq persuaded her to join the IMG, which she did in summer 1971. In subsequent years she used to muddy this connection by claiming that she was in the Spartacus League, a short lived youth wing of the IMG. She was never at ease with the Irish Republican Trotskyism of the IMG and was also very inimical to Gery Lawless an IMG member at the time. She felt that having Lawless as a member discredited the IMG. Under the influence of Brian Trench [political influence of course!] she joined the IS in 1972 but her stay there was also limited. She joined Hackney Labour party and supported the Troops Out Movement for a period before becoming a supporter of the BICO front organisation, Campaign for Labour Representation in Northern Ireland. Nowadays the IPR group are quiet hostile to her,dubbing her TallyHoey in a recent article!

Seems Kate Hoey is similar in some ways to Claire Fox and Peter Hitchens in her political journey - though as an MP I would suggest she is ramming her prejudices down her constituents' throats.

Not sure about Gramsci's assertion she is an extreme Unionist. If she is, that represents another volte face from being "Troops Out".


----------



## Southlondon (Jul 1, 2019)

happyshopper said:


> OK, game on. Faced with the possibility of a snap general election the Labour Party has given all sitting Labour MPs two weeks to indicate whether they wish to be considered for reselection. If Hoey says she doesn't want to be considered, that's it; we've got rid of her. Goodness knows whom we will get instead, but that's another issue.
> 
> If she says she does wish to stand again it gets more complicated. It's easier than it was for members to get another candidate, but it's still complicated. There's a process called mandatory reselection (sic) but this is only triggered if either one of two conditions are met. If they aren't met then she just becomes the candidate, although there's what's normally a formal endorsement by the National Executive.
> 
> ...


The reason why I and many other members and voters in Vauxhall support Kate I’d because of the way she is always there to support the residents against the excesses of our right wing labour council, and the libdem/Tory  imposed austerity. She supports the Lambeth residents being evicted from their communities by the council, redevelopment of estates against the residents wishes, rebelling against the party along with Corbyn abbot etc on benefit cuts, criminalisation of squatting in commercial premises etc etc. When you canvass the estates for her it becomes very apparent where her enormous majority comes from, she is diligent and responsive with constituents case work with a huge proportion being immigration  issues. She is a very visible MP and attends residents meetings and single issue groups which is something a lot of MPs neglect. And for me the fact she rebelled and voted against the illegal war in Iraq is another big plus point. I’m one of the 17+ million people who voted to leave the EU so her stance on Brexit is not an issue for me, as we have such a tiny number of Labour politicians that represent the wishes of the 1/3 if labour voters who also voted leave and want leave to mean leave and not be hijjacked by the political elite and their vocal metropolitan supporters


----------



## CH1 (Jul 1, 2019)

This article by Wayne Asher surprised me. Published in International Socialism - an organ of the SWP - it takes to pieces a lot of the arguments about the validity of the referendum result and how it is interpreted. 

Mr Asher goes to great lengths to show that a pro-Brexit position in not logical, and goes against the general wishes of left socialist groups. I assume that means the SWP are remainers, though I had expected they were in favour of Brexit.

Maybe International Socialism the magazine publishes different points of view on Brexit, like the Wetherpoons magazine does, though everyone know Tim Martin is a fanatical Brexiteer?

Anyhow my favourite quote from Waye Asher is this (quoting Lenin): “*The fighting party of the advanced class need not fear mistakes. What it should fear is persistence in a mistake, refusal to admit and correct a mistake out of a false sense of shame*”
In a hole and still digging: the left and Brexit – International Socialism


----------



## belboid (Jul 1, 2019)

CH1 said:


> This article by Wayne Asher surprised me. Published in International Socialism - an organ of the SWP - it takes to pieces a lot of the arguments about the validity of the referendum result and how it is interpreted.
> 
> Mr Asher goes to great lengths to show that a pro-Brexit position in not logical, and goes against the general wishes of left socialist groups. I assume that means the SWP are remainers, though I had expected they were in favour of Brexit.
> 
> ...


Asher is an ex-member, the SWP are and were avowedly leave. 

There is a semi-official reply - Should the revolutionary left support Remain? – International Socialism  & Asher thwen replies to that Socialists and the Leave vote—a (brief) reply to Sean Leahy – International Socialism


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## Gramsci (Jul 1, 2019)

quotes messed up.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 1, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> The reason why I and many other members and voters in Vauxhall support Kate I’d because of the way she is always there to support the residents against the excesses of our right wing labour council, and the libdem/Tory  imposed austerity. She supports the Lambeth residents being evicted from their communities by the council, redevelopment of estates against the residents wishes, rebelling against the party along with Corbyn abbot etc on benefit cuts, criminalisation of squatting in commercial premises etc etc. When you canvass the estates for her it becomes very apparent where her enormous majority comes from, she is diligent and responsive with constituents case work with a huge proportion being immigration  issues. She is a very visible MP and attends residents meetings and single issue groups which is something a lot of MPs neglect. And for me the fact she rebelled and voted against the illegal war in Iraq is another big plus point. I’m one of the 17+ million people who voted to leave the EU so her stance on Brexit is not an issue for me, as we have such a tiny number of Labour politicians that represent the wishes of the 1/3 if labour voters who also voted leave and want leave to mean leave and not be hijjacked by the political elite and their vocal metropolitan supporters




I looked at the figures for Remain in my Ward Coldharbour one of the poorest in Lambeth. Remain was around 80%.

The idea put about by leave supporters like you that Remainers are part of the metropolitan political elite is not true.

I also do a working class job.

I can assure you the majority of the working class in inner London are Remainers. That is our course those who had the chance to vote. People from other EU countries living here were excluded from the referendum. Despite living here for years. And under EU rules having right to vote here. Yet they were excluded from the referendum. Not able to have a democratic say in something that would affect them personally. So imo that referendum excluded a whole section of the community on purpose.

How is it you can't see that? You live in London.

Second thing is Hoey is no Lexiteer. She is full on flag waving Unionist. And says so.

Hoey is a good constituency MP on Brexit she is letting her constituents down.

And btw ordinary working class people aren't bored by Brexit. Topic comes up at work regularly.

But then like a lot of Londoners I work with people from all different countries. 

I can tell you that average working person from Poland, Spain , Czech republic, Germany- to name but a few of the people I meet on a daily basis aren't keen on Brexit.

Saying Remainers are "Metropolitans" has a really nasty edge to it.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 1, 2019)

CH1 said:


> This article by Wayne Asher surprised me. Published in International Socialism - an organ of the SWP - it takes to pieces a lot of the arguments about the validity of the referendum result and how it is interpreted.
> 
> Mr Asher goes to great lengths to show that a pro-Brexit position in not logical, and goes against the general wishes of left socialist groups. I assume that means the SWP are remainers, though I had expected they were in favour of Brexit.
> 
> ...



SWP are Brexit. Though in Brixton you wouldn't know that as its something they don't go on about in local Brixton area. Not surprisingly. It wouldnt get them much support here.

Friend of mine , involved in local issues, was at a community meeting in run up to referendum. The Trot present, who they all knew and liked, said he hoped they would all support Brexit. He was met with disbelief.

No one else could understand how anyone on the left could vote for something that UKIP / Farage wanted.

I do try to explain to my friend about Lexit but they couldn't see Brexit as anything but a victory for the right. The nasty anti immigrant right.

I'd say my friend was pretty typical. And my friend was no supporter of the New Labour Council. Or the "elite".

btw in the run up to election the position of Corbyn / McDonnell was reform and remain.


----------



## Southlondon (Jul 2, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> SWP are Brexit. Though in Brixton you wouldn't know that as its something they don't go on about in local Brixton area. Not surprisingly. It wouldnt get them much support here.
> 
> Friend of mine , involved in local issues, was at a community meeting in run up to referendum. The Trot present, who they all knew and liked, said he hoped they would all support Brexit. He was met with disbelief.
> 
> ...


Simple fact is 1.4 million more people voted to leave than remain. You have your experiences I have mine. I am a council Tennant, working class and so are my friends. The majority of my friends are leavers, we are not farage supporters nor racist little englanders but we believe that the EU is an un accountable neoliberal organisation that favours the rich countries of Europe over the poorer ones. We don’t like the  idea of the commissioners being appointed by the power of patronage in the same way our upper house is appointed. We don’t like the idea of creating another super power in the world and I personally believe in people’s right to self determination be they the Irish, the Scots, English, Catalonians, Or any region that wishes to be independent,  so I am not a unionist. In fact I have always been an ardent supporter of Irish republicans and their demand for a united ireland somewhat different to Kate’s views on ireland. But I have been a Labour Party activist since I was 15, and I have never had such a hard working and supportive MP when it comes to the day to day issues affecting my neighbors, and the fact that 1/3 of labour voters have only a tiny handful of labour MPs to speak for them means I am even more satisfied that kate is sticking to her long held and very public support for Brexit. People that would see the party purged of leaver MPs must understand that if that was to succeed we would disappear in the poorer post industrial constituencies as we have in Scotland


----------



## CH1 (Jul 2, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> People that would see the party purged of leaver MPs must understand that if that was to succeed we would disappear in the poorer post industrial constituencies as we have in Scotland


Do you think this sentence is correct? Scotland being a Remain voting region, it doesn't make sense to blame Labour extinction in Scotland on purging Brexit leaning MPs does it?

If you wanted to be kind to Labour you might say that the strongest Scottish MPs were deployed in the UK government 1997-2010, and they took their eye of the ball in Scotland.

Plus by all accounts there were lots of divisions and recriminations in Scottish Labour after they lost power nationally.

Brexit wasn't an issue in England either until Cameron put it on the table because of defections to UKIP - Douglas Carswell in Clacton and Mark Reckless in Rochester and Strood.

As regards your other analysis - since believing in the EU or hating the EU are gut reactions or tribal loyalties, what you say is your point of view. 

You might as well say it about Millwall or Dulwich Hamlet.


----------



## Southlondon (Jul 2, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Do you think this sentence is correct? Scotland being a Remain voting region, it doesn't make sense to blame Labour extinction in Scotland on purging Brexit leaning MPs does it?
> 
> If you wanted to be kind to Labour you might say that the strongest Scottish MPs were deployed in the UK government 1997-2010, and they took their eye of the ball in Scotland.
> 
> ...


Of course it’s my view I don’t claim it to be anything other. What I was trying  to say about Scotland was that labour lost its relevance in that country, and if it becomes a total remain party and MPs like Kate are deselected, people in the traditional labour heartlands of the north and West Midlands etc who predominantly voted leave will be left without any Labour MPs to represent their views. Then my guess is we will become irrelevant to them. I was also trying to make the point that just because I ageee with someone’s Brexit position doesn’t mean I agree with all their politics beyond Brexit. It’s all just my opinion but it’s reflected in a lot of the people I hang with who are neither unionists or right wing tories.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 2, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> Simple fact is 1.4 million more people voted to leave than remain. You have your experiences I have mine.



So you didn't object to the EU citizens from other countries resident here not having a vote in the referendum?


----------



## Southlondon (Jul 2, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> So you didn't object to the EU citizens from other countries resident here not having a vote in the referendum?


No


----------



## CH1 (Jul 2, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> No


I think this is a breach of civil rights. Just as it was a breach of civil rights that many councils including Lambeth failed to process European UK resident voters for the Euro election.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 2, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> No



This doesn't surprise me.

You know if the EU was as bad as you say and you had put your arguments to other EU nationals living here they could have voted leave. Been swayed by the Lexit argument and voted leave. After all I hear plenty of criticism of the EU from my Spanish and Italian friends. Which is all valid.

There is a whole lot of things wrong with the EU. Mainly the Euro and imposition of austerity on countries like Greece. The Euro is a total disaster for ordinary people.

This country was not in Euro. I think we should have stayed and fought for reform. The position of Corbyn / McDonnell in the referendum. 

But the thing is all Brexit supporters knew that the people from other EU countries resident here were likely to vote Remain. So best that they were excluded from the referendum vote. It was gerrymandering. If EU nationals had been thought to be likely to vote Brexit they would have got a vote. Its that cynical.

Far from referendum result being positive change Im now thinking there is nothing positive about it.

My local community is suffering from Tory Austerity which has nothing to do with the EU. All this Brexit stuff means my mainly working class community has no voice.


Brexit as CH1 says was about Tory party losing votes to UKIP.  Whole of the Brexit was pushed by the right. It never was about Lexit.

Personally I feel Corbyn is in an impossible position. He is getting it from the likes of right of party and also ( see letter from 25 MPs) getting it from Northern MPs telling him not to back Remain.

The split in this country isn't simple. In inner London the working class are Remain. This isn't the same in other parts of the country. Like my home town Plymouth. The working class is split on Brexit. As are the middle class. I just don't meet people in inner London who are Brexit. I can count the number of people I meet who are Brexit on my hand.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 2, 2019)

CH1 said:


> I would think the fact that Lambeth has the largest swing in the country to the Lib Dems in the Euros might possibly be at least partly due to our esteemed Member for Vauxhall:
> View attachment 172558


Maybe. Lambeth had the largest percentage remain in the country in the referendum, aside from Gibraltar. So you'd expect a big swing to the libdems. I doubt Hoey had that much to do with it. There was also a big swing to them in Haringey, for instance, where the staunch remainer David Lammy is one of the MPs.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Maybe. Lambeth had the largest percentage remain in the country in the referendum, aside from Gibraltar. So you'd expect a big swing to the libdems. I doubt Hoey had that much to do with it. There was also a big swing to them in Haringey, for instance, where the staunch remainer David Lammy is one of the MPs.



Chuka was always Remain as was Lambeth Labour led Council. The Labour led Council in Lambeth have publicly said they want "People's Vote". At recent Council by election they still almost lost Council seat to LDs.

Voters look at national party then decide. Whatever Lambeth Labour Cllrs say does not register.

Its why Labour party Remainers get worked up about the leadership.

TBH as I keep saying I think Corbyn can't win on this. Whatever he does he's going to get stick.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 2, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Do you think this sentence is correct? Scotland being a Remain voting region, it doesn't make sense to blame Labour extinction in Scotland on purging Brexit leaning MPs does it?
> 
> If you wanted to be kind to Labour you might say that the strongest Scottish MPs were deployed in the UK government 1997-2010, and they took their eye of the ball in Scotland.
> 
> ...



I agree.

I thought the success of SNP was that they positioned themselves as left of Tony Blair's New Labour?

Which TBH wasn't that difficult. Considering Tony Blair's New Labour ended up being Tory "Lite".


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 2, 2019)

CH1 said:


> This extract from The Irish Cedar Lounge Revolution blog in 2008 stunned me!
> 
> 9. NollaigO - May 1, 2008
> 
> ...



Well. Not extreme but a Unionist.

She had dalliance with IMG and IS ( the forerunner of SWP) before becoming a responsible adult and returning to her roots as a flag waving Unionist.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 3, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I thought the success of SNP was that they positioned themselves as left of Tony Blair's New Labour?
> 
> Which TBH wasn't that difficult. Considering Tony Blair's New Labour ended up being Tory "Lite".



Think even the tories under cameron positioned themselves (or at least pretended to) to the left of new labour on some issues - id cards for example


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 3, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Think even the tories under cameron positioned themselves (or at least pretended to) to the left of new labour on some issues - id cards for example



I agree.

i was cycling through Myatts Fields this morning and the Traffic Wardens were out. They all have "Civil Enforcement Officer" on the back of their uniform.

This goes back to the days of Blunkett and New Labour early days. His idea was that traffic wardens would be custodians of enforcing "citizenship". Giving on the spot fines to "citizens" for heinous crimes like dropping litter.

That was silently dropped. But the name still lives on in Lambeth traffic wardens. 

Whilst at the same time New Labour was relaxed about the filthy rich.

Neo Liberalism plus Social Control that was New Labour.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 3, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Giving on the spot fines to "citizens" for heinous crimes like dropping litter.
> 
> That was silently dropped



or was it silently introduced?  merton council (allegedly labour, not sure if the policy was brought in under a tory administration) and bromley council (always tory since the stone age) among others have litter wardens (or whatever they are called)


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 3, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> or was it silently introduced?  merton council (allegedly labour, not sure if the policy was brought in under a tory administration) and bromley council (always tory since the stone age) among others have litter wardens (or whatever they are called)



I have seen it in the City.

Blunkett "Civil Enforcement Officer" idea went with his support of ID cards. Which were not just straightforward ID cards but what he called "entitlement" cards one would have to swipe , for example, whenever one went to doctor. 

It was all about greater surveillance of the less well off. 

Funnily enough one party state China is picking up on these ideas.


----------



## thebackrow (Jul 3, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> or was it silently introduced?  merton council (allegedly labour, not sure if the policy was brought in under a tory administration) and bromley council (always tory since the stone age) among others have litter wardens (or whatever they are called)



I'm sure I've seen 'litter officers' fining people outside Brixton tube - for a period last year maybe? - but haven't seen them in a while now.  Litter in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

It's clearly an offence, it's socially undesirable and cleaning up after people who are too lazy or arrogant to put their rubbish in a bin sucks up council resources that could be spent on something socially worthwhile.	What's the issue?


----------



## Southlondon (Jul 3, 2019)

thebackrow said:


> I'm sure I've seen 'litter officers' fining people outside Brixton tube - for a period last year maybe? - but haven't seen them in a while now.  Litter in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
> 
> It's clearly an offence, it's socially undesirable and cleaning up after people who are too lazy or arrogant to put their rubbish in a bin sucks up council resources that could be spent on something socially worthwhile.	What's the issue?


Absolutely right. And it’s not actually a fine, it’s an opportunity to pay a fixed penalty or they can if they choose ignore that and go to court instead if they wish to fight it. Local authorities would not normally have a dedicated force of litter wardens, but more likely they are officers from environment enforcement departments that deal with issues like fly tipping and street trading etc who will be deployed to a littering ‘hotspot, in response to complaints from residents. It’s like illegal parking or low level motoring offences. Education and awareness alone won’t clear antisocial behaviour unless there’s the threat of some sort of penalty. Easy to avoid. Don’t drop litter on our streets


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 4, 2019)

thebackrow said:


> I'm sure I've seen 'litter officers' fining people outside Brixton tube - for a period last year maybe? - but haven't seen them in a while now.  Litter in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
> 
> It's clearly an offence, it's socially undesirable and cleaning up after people who are too lazy or arrogant to put their rubbish in a bin sucks up council resources that could be spent on something socially worthwhile.	What's the issue?



See my post 326 on the issue.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 4, 2019)

The occasional litter officers that the Council send out to for "low hanging fruit". Basically Joe Blogs.

When it comes down to more serious fly tipping the Council is useless.

They haven't the resources to deal with it. Its a problem in LJ.

So Council go  for occasional fining people outside the Tube. Its just for show.


----------



## Southlondon (Jul 5, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The occasional litter officers that the Council send out to for "low hanging fruit". Basically Joe Blogs.
> 
> When it comes down to more serious fly tipping the Council is useless.
> 
> ...


There’s no such thing as a ‘litter officer’ in Lambeth. They are enforcement officers who spend the majority of their working hours dealing with fly toppers and illegal street traders etc. Occasionally they will e deployed to littering hotspots which have been flagged up by residents complaints to provide a uniformed deterrent and to educate and enforce against littering. If litter laws weren’t enforced some people would be quite happy to drop their crap on the pavement without a second thought. It’s like did fouling. Most dog walkers are responsible and clear up rafter their animals, but others don’t and this is a major issue believe it or not in terms of reside complaints. Littering operations are only occasional and not conducted by dedicated ‘littering enforcement officers ‘ as you seem to believe. They are targeted in response to complaints. It’s not a case of low hanging fruit or easy targets, it’s because a lot of people don’t like to shuffle through the detritus left by inconsiderate people not using bins. As stated already it’s not a fine it’s an FPN - an opportunity to pay a fixed amount like a parking ticket to avoid getting a fine. Easily avoided by using bins. You’re so anti- the council you see conspiracy every where you look


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 6, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> You’re so anti- the council you see conspiracy every where you look



That's good to hear.

As Ive been criticised twice recently for not being anti- Council enough.

My view on Labour Councils being subject to big cuts by the Tories being one. Hasn't gone down well here.


----------



## Southlondon (Jul 6, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> That's good to hear.
> 
> As Ive been criticised twice recently for not being anti- Council enough.
> 
> My view on Labour Councils being subject to big cuts by the Tories being one. Hasn't gone down well here.


Some people need to try living or working in a Tory/libdem borough and then they would see the contrast in how they execute the cuts in line with their priorities. I appreciate you are more informed and pragmatic about this than some other posters on urban, and it is absolutely true that the decision to impose austerity upon local authorities was taken by the libdems and the tories in partnership, and this has cut the council funding almost in half. It’s those bastards that are responsible for the reduction in services and yet some people moan about revenue generating events in parks not being free,or libraries being kept open by pairing them with gyms ( fit in  mind fit in body and vice Versa I personally think it’s a brilliant idea), or working in partnership with local residents to keep adventure playgrounds open etc  when the alternatives are to close those services as Tory and libdem boroughs have done  without any efforts to keep them open. I’m the first one to criticise the dominant labour group in the council for their blairitte ways, however I’m doing my bit in the party to build the left so we can select more left wing candidates for the next election which is the best way to change the direction of the council and push it to the left. people that want to have a more left wing council would be better placed adding their numbers and efforts to the left resistance in Lambeth labour than wasting  time in the greens who showed they weren’t lefties at all when they controlled Birmingham and Brighton councils, or irrelevant little left wing grouplets that achieve absolutely Jack shit.


----------



## colacubes (Jul 8, 2019)

She's not seeking reselection for the next election:


----------



## CH1 (Jul 8, 2019)

colacubes said:


> She's not seeking reselection for the next election:



So any riders and runners to be the new Labout candidate?

I would have thought Ibrahim Dogus must be itching to stand.
At least his Mayor's chairites are a bit more outward looking than Tally Ho Kate's little England world view:
*Ibrahim Dogus*, who has been elected *mayor* *of* the London borough in 2019/20 and will take office on 22 May 2019, selected the Migration Museum and Refugees Welcome *Lambeth* as his two chosen charities during his tenure as *mayor*, as part of a thematic focus on refugees and immigrants.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 8, 2019)

CH1 said:


> So any riders and runners to be the new Labout candidate?.


Amy Lamė ?


----------



## happyshopper (Jul 8, 2019)

CH1 said:


> So any riders and runners to be the new Labout candidate?
> 
> I would have thought Ibrahim Dogus must be itching to stand.



Almost certain to be an all-woman short-list.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 8, 2019)

Good Riddance, perhaps she can get a job alongside Widdicome and her mate Nigel.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2019)

Bet she's elevated to the lords


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 8, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> libraries being kept open by pairing them with gyms ( fit in  mind fit in body and vice Versa I personally think it’s a brilliant idea), .


I presume you're talking about Carnegie, where they spent 3 million excavating the basement of a grade II listed library then handed it over rent free to a private company until 2023?


----------



## BusLanes (Jul 8, 2019)

happyshopper said:


> Almost certain to be an all-woman short-list.



That's what I heard too, last year, but was speaking to a Labour mate about this and they're no longer so sure if that'll happen. 

Anyway, if it is All Woman Shortlist, I wonder if the Labour MEP 4th placed person, Laura Parker (iirc) will stand. She's Vauxhall based and seems to be a cross between loyal Momentum and Remainer/Another Europe is Possible


----------



## BusLanes (Jul 8, 2019)

If it's open to men, then agree Dogus must be itching for a go. He ran nearby in 17 after all and has done a lot of work on raising his profile locally and in Labour.
Maybe his ward mate, Kevin as well? I remember his name being bandied about a couple of years back when he was Hoey's agent. 
Then there surely will be a few high profile men from neighbouring boroughs or across London who'd like a shot.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 8, 2019)

See the Twitter response to her letter of resignation suggests she finds a new career in the Brexit party. 

Backing the Farage wing of Brexit was her undoing.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 8, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> That's what I heard too, last year, but was speaking to a Labour mate about this and they're no longer so sure if that'll happen.
> 
> Anyway, if it is All Woman Shortlist, I wonder if the Labour MEP 4th placed person, Laura Parker (iirc) will stand. She's Vauxhall based and seems to be a cross between loyal Momentum and Remainer/Another Europe is Possible



Yes Laura Parker is both Corbyn supporter and Remain.

Labour members know what we need: a referendum and a campaign for remain | Laura Parker

All the people I know who joined or rejoined the Labour party due to Corbyn in Lambeth are Remain.

They are opposed to return of Blairities to run national party. But also opposed Brexit.

As a non Labour member the I see Brexit as a tragedy.

Its a possible scenario that this country might get a Boris Brexit. The end result being the entrenching of the "Free market" ideology under Boris plus the ending of the Corbyn experiment and return to the "middle ground" for the Labour party.

All those who felt disenfranchised one way or the other will end up with nothing.

IMO that tosser Chuka should have stayed in Labour party and stuck it out. Him being part of the so called centre ground.


----------



## Southlondon (Jul 9, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> I presume you're talking about Carnegie, where they spent 3 million excavating the basement of a grade II listed library then handed it over rent free to a private company until 2023?


That’s one of them yes. It’s how Lambeth has managed to keep all its libraries open when other boroughs have closed lots of theirs


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 9, 2019)

You are Gym Dickson AICMFP


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2019)

colacubes said:


> She's not seeking reselection for the next election:



Managed to bugger up the simple instructions on the form to tick one box


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Bet she's elevated to the lords



Should still leave her plenty of free time to polish her little mini.


----------



## happyshopper (Jul 19, 2019)

happyshopper said:


> And it you are not already a member it's probably too late for you to join in.



It seems I was wrong about this. The formal selection process hasn’t started yet and until it does you can join the party and take part in the vote. Link here I just joined the Labour Party – will you too?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 22, 2019)

This charming piece written for SLP 5/7/19 is classic Hoey. Goodbye old friend!
Worried as ever about what the horses are going to eat under the Hackney Carriages Act, she nevertheless notes the interest of RMT - the black cab owners union.

I don't like Uber either - but my rationale is I would object to paying a licensing fee to an American mega corporation just to have a taxi ride. That said it appears that Uber support Linux the free software people.

What a crazy mixed-up world we live in.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 7, 2019)

Someone on the Lambeth for Europe Facebook group is speculating that Kate may defect to the Brexit party.
Might make for an interesting general election - when and if it comes.


----------



## BusLanes (Aug 7, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Someone on the Lambeth for Europe Facebook group is speculating that Kate may defect to the Brexit party.
> Might make for an interesting general election - when and if it comes.



Surely she will just retire and then campaign for no deal now via the media


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 7, 2019)

Out of interest I looked to see if she had supported Mays deal.

No she didn't.

https://brexitcentral.com/mps-reject-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-149-majority-heres-every-mp-voted/

She voted along with her Unionist Northern Ireland mates against it.

So she is not just Pro Brexit she is of what is euphemistically called the Leave Means Leave lot.

She all along wanted a hard Brexit. The Unionist patriotic flag waver waver she has shown herself to be.

Well that is my impression from all I've read of what she has said.

She never wanted a compromise deal.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 7, 2019)

The thing about Hoey supporting Brexit is that she always meant No deal Brexit. 

That was underlying whole sections of the UKIP / Brexit party/ Tory right/ Hard left. 

The vote for them was just the beginning. 

The fact that leave could mean many different things was not part of their project.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 7, 2019)

Its why you never hear sections of the left criticise Hoey. Despite her reactionary views on the Union and Britishness.


----------



## BusLanes (Aug 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The thing about Hoey supporting Brexit is that she always meant No deal Brexit.
> 
> That was underlying whole sections of the UKIP / Brexit party/ Tory right/ Hard left.
> 
> ...





Gramsci said:


> Its why you never hear sections of the left criticise Hoey. Despite her reactionary views on the Union and Britishness.



These are good points.

I don't dislike Hoey - she's always been ok with me when we've talked or otherwise interacted, but her Brexit position is mad. She's by all appearances, been fully signed up to the hardest No Deal version for a while now. Always retweeting Brexit Party or ERG Conservatives.

There's no reason why she needs to resile from her vote or preference but she has never shown any interest in working with Vauxhall or Remainers to get them on side. It's all biased BBC this, Brexit Party is right about Irish Border that (see video!), why doesn't Labour get out of London - to metropolitan elite! (despite being a London MP who's lived here for 40-50 years).

She's absolutely on board with whatever hard right US style Libertarian bullshit the new Johnson administration puts forward as it's all secondary to Brexit.


----------



## BusLanes (Aug 20, 2019)

According to Vauxhall Labour Twitter, Labour's NEC has said selection to replace Hoey will not be All Women Shortlist as expected but will instead be open to men.

Apparently, according to Twitter, this means Mr Dogus gets the nod.

Thoughts?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Its why you never hear sections of the left criticise Hoey. Despite her reactionary views on the Union and Britishness.


and hunting


----------



## CH1 (Aug 29, 2019)

This was lurking on a pro-remain Trot site. Amongst many others from Labour Leave etc labelled "more fifth columnists"


----------



## happyshopper (Aug 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> and hunting


... and handguns.


----------



## BusLanes (Aug 29, 2019)

One of the people who apparently is running for Vauxhall, Laura Parker is one of the leaders for the Saturday protests


----------



## ash (Sep 4, 2019)

And today ....... she stands up and openly supports Johnson !?!


----------



## CH1 (Sep 4, 2019)

ash said:


> And today ....... she stands up and openly supports Johnson !?!


She was formidably vitriolic on Sky News Tuesday am. Clearly thinks anybody not a no-dealer is a wimp.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 4, 2019)

Bloody hell


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 4, 2019)

I'm livid at Hoey. She now supports Johnson.

She is a disgrace. I've looked at her Twitter and its bile directed at those who oppose No Deal and any form of Irish nationalism. However mild. Loads directed at the Eire government. She really hates Irish nationalism.

As a friend of mine from NI said she behaves like typical DUP politician.

Maybe she is thinking of standing as a DUP candidate? After all Enoch Powell found a home in NI. She is another anti immigration Brexit supporter so could follow in the shoes of Enoch.

Corbyn has had an awful lot of criticism over Brexit. I feel for the guy. As a Remainer I think he has steered a middle way between all the different factions amongst the Labour MPs. The LDs haven't had to deal with this. The Greens have anti EU section.



> The Borough of Lambeth, which includes the Vauxhall constituency, voted 78.6% to stay in the European Union in the 2016 referendum - the highest proportion of Remain voters of any area aside from Gibraltar


.

from

Northern Irelanzd-born MP Hoey hints she could stand in next election but not for Labour - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

Hoey has over last few years totally ignored the people who voted for her. Corbyn has attempted to have a Brexit that straddles leavers and Remainers. As CH1 says Hoey position is that any any compromise is for wimps.Its the fuck you you lost arguement. Trouble is she is elected to represent people who overwhelming voted Remain.

I can't express how angry I am at an inner London MP having her position.

I think she should fuck off back to Northern Ireland.

The sooner she goes the better.

She is anti Irish bigot. She gets into bed with Farage and the worst parts of the Tory party.

Yet she gets little criticism on the left as she is Brexit.

Nauseating .


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 4, 2019)

She is revelling in going against Corbyn and supporting Boris.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 4, 2019)

I now think she should have the Labour whip withdrawn from her. She can spend the rest of her days as an MP on her own.

Whilst she decides what party she wants to represent.

And what kind of people she wants to represent. I do think she would be better off in the DUP. More represents what she believes in.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 4, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I now think she should have the Labour whip withdrawn from her. She can spend the rest of her days as an MP on her own.
> 
> Whilst she decides what party she wants to represent.
> 
> And what kind of people she wants to represent. I do think she would be better off in the DUP. More represents what she believes in.


Looks like there may be a General Election shortly anyway. The anti no deal MPs are trying to legislate against Boris's 31st October crash-out. Once that is done it will be a very acrimonious election no doubt.

Interesting to see how Boris's abusive behaviour plays in election. It might put people off and keep them at home.

It's one thing standing for Mayor as a buffoon - quite another standing for PM as a neo Nazi.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 4, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Looks like there may be a General Election shortly anyway. The anti no deal MPs are trying to legislate against Boris's 31st October crash-out. Once that is done it will be a very acrimonious election no doubt.
> 
> Interesting to see how Boris's abusive behaviour plays in election. It might put people off and keep them at home.
> 
> It's one thing standing for Mayor as a buffoon - quite another standing for PM as a neo Nazi.



If No deal is got through parliament and election is called Boris ( and Hoey) will see this as the people versus the establishment election.

My disagreement with Hoey is that she is MP for one of the most Remain areas (and they aren't all middle class).

Outside London and its a different story.

So Boris is in with a chance if election happens.

Funnily enough Corbyn , who is berated as loony left , has been trying to go for a compromise Brexit. Its not working as a strategy. The country is so divided that any middle ground way is not getting support.

The media is so hostile to him on some matters but on a compromise Brexit he is still getting stick from media.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 5, 2019)

Currently watching the House of Lords live at 12.45 am on Thursday - they are supposedly processing the House of Commons bill on stopping the no deal Brexit. Their Lords behaviour, whilst polite, hardly gives confidence they are in touch with reality.

Maybe with the Queen, Prorogation and Lords obstruction wholesale constitutional reform needs to be a priority.
Lest we forget Mussolini and Victor Emmanuel III pushed the Italian people too far



Spoiler: ed: graphic image


----------



## belboid (Sep 5, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Currently watching the House of Lords live at 12.45 am on Thursday


god, I'm not the only super-sad fucker


----------



## CH1 (Sep 5, 2019)

Back to Kate - they then showed Foreign Office Questions feat. Dominic Raab from 3rd September.
There was a curious exchange about Zimbabwe.

Kate wanted government action about Mnangagwa who was treating the people of Zimbabwe appallingly she said.
Nicholas Soames - lately sacked from the Tory party - was concerned that this did not effect aid given to the education sector in Zimbabwe, which Soames said was vital for the welfare of the country.

Weird to hear Kate Hoey the battle ace vs Nicholas Soames now ex-Tory liberal.


----------



## BusLanes (Sep 5, 2019)

Kate, to her credit does regularly raise Zimbabwe


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 5, 2019)

Well Zimbabwe is a long way away. 

On Ireland her views are reactionary. No understanding of why some people in Northern Ireland might want a untied Ireland. No understanding of the way historically Unionism is deeply resented by a large amount of Irish people who live in Northern Ireland.


----------



## BusLanes (Sep 5, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Well Zimbabwe is a long way away.
> 
> On Ireland her views are reactionary. No understanding of why some people in Northern Ireland might want a untied Ireland. No understanding of the way historically Unionism is deeply resented by a large amount of Irish people who live in Northern Ireland.



Oh I think she knows, she just doesn't care.

I met a guy from Belfast recently, who's not Labour and he said that as far as he could tell, back in the day, she was actually quite good on cross community stuff for the time (1980s) and only has gone/reverted to her DUP style beliefs in recent years.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 6, 2019)

Current Lambeth Mayor Ibrahim Dogus throw his hat in the ring for Vauxhall
Ibrahim Dogus: Why I want to be the next Labour MP for Vauxhall

Seems like an improvement if he gets it. Curiously Dogus almost succeeded in taking Cities of Westminster & London last time against the aggressive Tory who put the Green lady in a headlock a few weeks ago in the city's Guildhall dinner.

Labour made a bit of a booboo IMHO swapping Dogus for a flamoyant vicar who seems to specialise in getting bad publicity in the Daily Mail.

Still Soho's loss might be Vauxhall's gain (though if I were in Vauxhall I would vote for the sensible looking Lib Dem lady with an interest in Social Housing)


----------



## ash (Sep 6, 2019)

Apologies taken straight from John O’Farrells Twitter:

Delighted that @emily4vauxhall has applied to be our next Labour MP for Vauxhall. She would make a great MP and is a unifying candidate, having been chair of the constituency through some difficult years. (Also, she would never go on a boat with Nigel Farage.)

She seems Ok on first glance


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 6, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Sep 6, 2019)

List of officers in Vauxhall Labour party:

https://vauxhall.laboursites.org/clp/

Dogus and Emily are both officers.

I don't have a clue what their politics are. Do they support Corbyn?

My problem with long standing officers getting shoe in as candidates is what happened in Coldharbour Ward.

Our two new Cllrs have zero track record in community pollitcs. They have loads in being long standing party members.

Why Coldharbour Ward gets two new Cllrs who I've never heard of.

As local community person I know said to me the Labour party is separate from local community issues.

We live in same community but have parallel lives.

As a party of the working class the Labour party still does not have organic relationship with local community.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 6, 2019)

So what's happened to Laura Parker?


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 6, 2019)

Gramsci said:


>




I've listened to her pitch to be the candidate for Vauxhall. Its a load of waffle.

Nothing about Corbyn or whether she supports New Labour. No view on Lambeth Council.

Just a load of stuff about how she is a successful business woman and doesnt like the Tories.

No content.

Comes across as centre ground.

I could see LD doing the same video. 

This is so not what I want to see.

I want to see the real differences , the politics and how to get there if in power. 

Her broadcast comes across as the middle way don't scare off the middle class voters  line. 

The LDs are doing a better job on that.


----------



## BusLanes (Sep 9, 2019)

I heard Laura was being considered for Streatham (maybe heard it on u75)


----------



## RoyReed (Sep 11, 2019)

Claire Holland has applied to be the new Vauxhall candidate.


----------



## BusLanes (Sep 11, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> I heard Laura was being considered for Streatham (maybe heard it on u75)



Enfield North apparently


----------



## BusLanes (Sep 12, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> Enfield North apparently



And according to Twitter this morning, Enfield Momentum and it's members are super unhappy about her parachuting herself in.

So she may well not succeed in her attempt for selection


----------



## BusLanes (Sep 19, 2019)

And now Lord Adonis apparently is joining the race.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 19, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> And now Lord Adonis apparently is joining the race.



So I see. I thought this was a joke but no its for real.

Do you have any idea why he's doing this?

He has a political position as a Lord. So its not like he has no power.


----------



## BusLanes (Sep 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> So I see. I thought this was a joke but no its for real.
> 
> Do you have any idea why he's doing this?
> 
> He has a political position as a Lord. So its not like he has no power.



Your guess is as good as mine.

The theory I've heard is that he doesn't expect to win but he's using it as a publicity stunt


----------



## Winot (Sep 20, 2019)

Can you be a Lord and an MP


----------



## colacubes (Sep 20, 2019)

Winot said:


> Can you be a Lord and an MP


No. He’d have to quit as a Lord if he won.

It’s what Tony Benn did years ago although that was trickier as he was a hereditary peer.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 20, 2019)

Winot said:


> Can you be a Lord and an MP



No.

He is hedging his bets. He will only stand down if elected.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 20, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> Your guess is as good as mine.
> 
> The theory I've heard is that he doesn't expect to win but he's using it as a publicity stunt



I think you are right. Looking him up more and he's been described as a "moderate moderate".

He is the prime example of the "centre" ground politician of the Blair / Cameron era.

Starting out in the SDP, then LD then Labour ( under Blair) and then working with Cameron/ Osbourne.

His friends say he is a doer not an ideologue.

Very much representative of the centre ground politics that appeared to be the "end of history" once Communism fell.

Profile: Lord Andrew Adonis

He did stand as candidate for MEP in South West under Labour banner. Lost. South West (where I came from) is totally split between Remainers ( Greens / LDs) and Brexit party. MEPs in South West are three Brexit and two LD/ one Green.

South West Region - 6 MEPs

As during the English Civil War the area is totally divided.

Labour parties position in the middle trying to bring together both sides didn't work.

So what Adonis , paradoxically for a centre politician , is saying is to Remain.

I'm think that is why he is standing. To have platform to publicly ciriticise leadership of Labour party.

All very strange that such a non ideological doer is finding himself taking sides.


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 4, 2019)

Lord ADonis seems to have made it official yesterday

http://www.adonisforvauxhall.com

It's quite slick

Then someone else in the local party wrote an annoyed article about the selection process

How to solve a problem like Vauxhall - LabourList


----------



## CH1 (Oct 4, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> Lord ADonis seems to have made it official yesterday
> http://www.adonisforvauxhall.com
> It's quite slick
> 
> ...


Joan Twelves article in Labour List is spot on - from her point of view.
I guess the Adonis question might indicate how cynical the Labour party is in order to halt a Lib Dem challenge. It might even have the advantage to them of further muddying the waters following the reversed conference vote on the Labour line in a referendum vote two weeks ago. Ask Jenny Formby.

Meanwhile Paul Mason, another leftie from the same neck of the woods as Joan Twelves has come out - in effect - for Margaret Becket as caretaker PM. In the I newspaper today he writes a detailed article whose peroration ends thus:

_"Here's how I think this crisis is going to play out. With luck, the European Union will reject Johnson's half-baked plan. On Saturday 19 October he will be forced by law to ask for an extension and will either defy the law or resign. If he does not resign, then come Monday 21 October, MPs will have to put up or shut up: there will be a vote of no confidence and Johnson's government will fall.


It will then take less than 24 hours to find out if Corbyn can form a government. If he can't then Labour supporters like me have to accept it as a fact and move on: the government we really care about is the one the comes out of an election. And not an election held with Johnson in charge – he has shown himself willing to break our unwritten constitution and his main advisor remains in contempt of parliament for refusal to answer questions over the conduct of the Leave campaign.


So once Johnson falls, and Corbyn can't form a government, I hope Labour MPs move swiftly to back a short term, and politically neutral, government led by Clarke, Beckett or even the Speaker, John Bercow, with a mandate for just two jobs: to ask Brussels for a Brexit delay and call an election in late November." 
A neutral government could break the Brexit deadlock_


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 4, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Joan Twelves article in Labour List is spot on - from her point of view.
> I guess the Adonis question might indicate how cynical the Labour party is in order to halt a Lib Dem challenge. It might even have the advantage to them of further muddying the waters following the reversed conference vote on the Labour line in a referendum vote two weeks ago. Ask Jenny Formby.
> 
> Meanwhile Paul Mason, another leftie from the same neck of the woods as Joan Twelves has come out - in effect - for Margaret Becket as caretaker PM. In the I newspaper today he writes a detailed article whose peroration ends thus:
> ...



Adonis could help against Lib Dems/Lewis but then surely anyone picked will be quite Remainey?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 4, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Joan Twelves article in Labour List is spot on - from her point of view.
> I guess the Adonis question might indicate how cynical the Labour party is in order to halt a Lib Dem challenge. It might even have the advantage to them of further muddying the waters following the reversed conference vote on the Labour line in a referendum vote two weeks ago. Ask Jenny Formby.
> 
> Meanwhile Paul Mason, another leftie from the same neck of the woods as Joan Twelves has come out - in effect - for Margaret Becket as caretaker PM. In the I newspaper today he writes a detailed article whose peroration ends thus:
> ...



I think Paul Mason article is flawed.

the three people he puts up as leaders of a "neutral government" aren't neutral. Clarke and Beckett are full on Remainers. Bercow isn't trusted as being neutral on Brexit. Many Brexit supporters see him as Remainer. Something he hasn't gone out of his way to dispell.

So what is the problem with the leader of the main opposition party being caretaker leader?

Looked at rationally and Corbyn is more neutral than the three people that Mason puts forward.

I've two friends Labour party supporters criticising him for not being Remain enough. Pointed out to them his position was to accept the result. Negotiate a realistic leave option. Then put that to a confirmatory referendum. With a Remain option.

This imo is the neutral position.

Its not the position of LDs.

So what is the reason for not having Corbyn as caretaker leader of temporary government?

Its that he is not part of the middle class centre ground. He is beyond the pale. He isn't fit to run this country.

So the problem is Corbyn represents something that the centre ground can't stomach.

And Corbyn is the politician who is the extremist. He is not, The two extremes are Boris and his right wing cabinet and opposing them the so called centre ground. A motley crew of Tories, Labour and LDs MPs many of whom supported austerity and or Blair's Third Way. But are now aligning themselves as the saviours of centre ground UK. FFS.

Politics in this country is all over the place.

The centre ground- some Labour, some Tory and all the LDs would rather Boris win than have a Marxist in power for a few weeks.

I'm a Remainer but if this goes on Im going to say fuck the middle class centre and go for it Boris.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 4, 2019)

Let's get this straight.

The whole point of getting another referendum is that the Remainers think they might just win it.

I would prefer to Remain.

A narrow majority to Remain in second referendum is possible. 

Its not however going to unite the country. Its going to lead to years of resentment.


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 4, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Let's get this straight.
> 
> The whole point of getting another referendum is that the Remainers think they might just win it.
> 
> ...



It's not the whole point but it is largely the point.  

I think also by this point that given the governing faction of the Conservatives seems to be all in favour of a No Deal Crash libertarian deregulation then there is little chance of things going away nicely - like it may have been possible in 2016 had anyone in the Conservative leadership tried for a national consensus brexit (whatever that may have been)


----------



## Winot (Oct 4, 2019)

I’m an arch Remainer and I’m not a Corbyn fan. But it seems pretty obvious to me that he should have the first crack at forming a government if Johnson falls. He’s the leader of the opposition after all. 

I’d also not have a problem personally with him being caretaker PM to get an extension. 

But as Mason says, if he has a crack and can’t command a majority, what then?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 4, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> Lord ADonis seems to have made it official yesterday
> 
> http://www.adonisforvauxhall.com
> 
> ...



What an annoying website.

He is fully paid up member of Blair's Third Way.

He was terrible on housing.

This mixed community nonsense was about encouraging gentrification in practise.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 4, 2019)

Winot said:


> I’m an arch Remainer and I’m not a Corbyn fan. But it seems pretty obvious to me that he should have the first crack at forming a government if Johnson falls. He’s the leader of the opposition after all.
> 
> I’d also not have a problem personally with him being caretaker PM to get an extension.
> 
> But as Mason says, if he has a crack and can’t command a majority, what then?



The point is that Corbyn has put forward proposal for caretaker government.

These full on Remainers from other parties like LDs won't work with a "Marxist". That's the problem.

Its not about Corbyn. Its about the particular kind of Remain some of these die hard Remainers want.

They would rather scupper good opportunity than work with Corbyn. As they would see this as legitimising his politics.

I'm not a die hard Remainer. I was against leaving as I didn't like the anti immigration side in the leaving campaign.

The EU is pretty crap institution. Imposed drastic unnecessary austerity on Greece. The PIGs all suffered due to EU neo liberal economics. The Euro is a disaster.

If I see a push by middle class group of so called "centre" ground politicians trying to use opposition to Brexit to reinstall themselves as the mainstream like they used to be Im in that case not interested.

I think these "centre" ground politicians think they can reverse Brexit then go back to the middle way. See the now ex Tory Rory in the ES going on in that way today. Part of this project of theirs includes getting rid of Corbyn and all he stands for. This isn't being neutral. its is ideological despite what some of them say.


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 11, 2019)

I see Kevin Craig, Labour councillor for Bishops has attacked his fellow Bishops councillor Ibrahim Dougus this morning on Twitter for promoting himself via Lambeth Life, his newspaper


----------



## CH1 (Oct 11, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> I see Kevin Craig, Labour councillor for Bishops has attacked his fellow Bishops councillor Ibrahim Dougus this morning on Twitter for promoting himself via Lambeth Life, his newspaper


It would be a bit weird if Ibrahim Dougus didn't promote himself in his own paper. Especially as he is Mayor of Lambeth this year.

I think Kevin could have complained about this before. Meaning before Kate Hoey said she was retiring. One therefore assumes Kevin has a dog in the race as they say.

Why doesn't he book an emergency showing of Citizen Kane for the Cinema Museum? Kill two birds with one stone - lampoon the allegedly power mad mayor, and raise funds for a worthy local charity!


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 11, 2019)

Well I assume most readers of Lambeth Life have no idea that ID owns it. I also assume that KC probably was ok with ID owning it before, say during the 2018 Local Elections


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 12, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> I see Kevin Craig, Labour councillor for Bishops has attacked his fellow Bishops councillor Ibrahim Dougus this morning on Twitter for promoting himself via Lambeth Life, his newspaper



I looked up Kevin Craig. He is a CEO of a "communications" company he set up. ie a PR company.

He comes across as typical Blairitie.

Here he is on relationship of business and government.




> For more than two decades, I’ve been advising some of the most prominent organisations throughout the country and the world on how they interact with politicians, at all levels. Whether corporations were navigating the latter years of John Major’s stagnant government, or analysing the newfound optimism heralded by New Labour, a common thread remained; the government was on their side. Until now.



The whole tone of the article is that its unfortunate that this has changed.

That the unwashed masses are now being listeneed to by "populists".

If only we couldd get back to th days when well meaning ( Remain) business leaders could discuss with politicians like reasonable chaps the best way forward for the country. And of course they all had everyones best interests at heart.

Kevin Craig: Business and politics need to get back to basics

Typical Blairitie.


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 12, 2019)

It may amuse you to learn that Kevin was also Kate Hoey's electoral agent for the 2017 election and, if I recall correctly, during said campaign his Twitter profile was a photo of him in an EU flag.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 12, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> Then someone else in the local party wrote an annoyed article about the selection process
> 
> How to solve a problem like Vauxhall - LabourList



Meant to say that this as an interesting read. 

The author is a long standing member of the Labour party. On the left. Former Cllr. Decent member of the left of the party and long standing worker for the party. 

So Kate managed what I would have considered impossible. She united the left and right of the party against her  Unionist flag waving views on Brexit. 

Quite an achievement. 

So she jumped before she was pushed. Deselection was distinct possibility.


----------



## happyshopper (Oct 14, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> So she jumped before she was pushed. Deselection was distinct possibility.



I understand that in the end there was not a single active member of the Party who would support her. Had she sought re-selection she would have had the right to be on the short-list put to members. The question was whether the non-active members of the Vauxhall Party, of whom there are many, might have still supported her, as it was often suggested she had helped a lot of people over her 30 years as a MP.


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 16, 2019)

Vauxhall Labour PPC list: Ibrahim Dogus, Katy Clark, Lucy Caldicott (Lambeth councillor), Maurice Macleod (Wandswoth councillor), Florence Eshalomi, Stephen Beer (former CLP chair) Claire Holland (deputy leader of Lambeth Council)


----------



## happyshopper (Oct 16, 2019)

The selection meeting is on Sunday, 27th October.


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 16, 2019)

I mean assumedly Dogus or Clark has it in bag - but if not - any thoughts on Caldicott, MacLeod (Think he represents the Wandsworth ward next to Oval), Eshalomi, Beer or Holland? Beer is the only one I haven't seen in action, but I assume he's reasonably well known (if not to me).


----------



## blameless77 (Oct 17, 2019)

Kate Hoey spotted dining with Arlene Foster at Kennington Tandoori apparently. Grrrrrr


----------



## CH1 (Oct 17, 2019)

It would be my fantasy that potential Vauxhall Labour PPC Claire Holland was related to hard left socialist Labour MP for Vauxhall MP Stuart Holland.

Stuart Holland was actually a descendent of the wealthy Holland family (of Holland Park etc). Relating to Vauxhall - *He also held land in Lambeth on lease from the Archbishop of Canterbury and began building there in 1820.*
The Holland estate: To 1874 | British History Online

Lambeth's conservation area document in turn says:
*19th Century
2.5 The completion of the Vauxhall Bridge in 1816 made South London an attractive proposition for middle class professionals wishing to escape the city. An 1818 Act of Parliament permitted the laying out of Camberwell New Road to the north of the es-tate provided valuable development plots along the road frontage. Henry Richard Vassall, Third Baron Holland, began construction of the houses at that time. The Estate and street names derive from his family connections. For example, Vassall was his wife's maiden name which he had adopted in 1800.
2.6 Construction began with ribbon development of smart houses along Camberwell New Road. Lots were let in small parcels to builders and speculators, this resulted in groups of villas and terraces being developed in parcels. The 1824 Plan of Lambeth Parish shows broken lines of development along Camberwell New Road, Foxley Road and Vassall Road; the other streets are not yet laid out. The remainder of the original development was erected in an ad-hoc fashion through the 1820s-1830s with a mixture of detached and semi-detached villas and dignified terraces; it be-came known as Holland Town at this time. By the 1840s the area was largely devel-oped - characterised by neat properties set within relatively spacious plots with front and rear gardens. However, much of the wider area remained undeveloped.
*
If it turned out that Claire and Stuart Holland were related then the Holland dynasty would have a claim pari passu to rival the Benn family as magnates turned hard then soft socialists.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 19, 2019)

From Twitter


PS do view on Twitter - the thread is fantastic


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2019)

That is 

Here is Kate Hoey best friend ( outside the DUP)



Seem to have Priti Patel as well. That one is also hilarious. And she has same views on EU immigrants as Hoey.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2019)

Kate Hoey take on Boris plan,



> In effect, it is seeking to do in less than a month what Sinn Fein/IRA failed to achieve in a century of murderous physical force.





> As a London MP but with deep roots in Northern Ireland I will never support any move which seeks to break apart even by a few threads the precious link with Great Britain.



Kate Hoey the DUP MP for Vauxhall Ulster. 


Kate Hoey: The Brexit plan divides the UK, so I will not be voting for it today


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2019)

On better news Adonis the New Labour creep hasn't made it to long list for selection to replace Kate Hoey. Who will be spending more time fox hunting in Ulster. 

Andrew Adonis misses longlist for Labour Vauxhall nomination

Hopefully the new candidate won't be Florence Eshalomi. Another New Labour loyalist. Ex Lambeth Cllr.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2019)




----------



## BusLanes (Oct 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> On better news Adonis the New Labour creep hasn't made it to long list for selection to replace Kate Hoey. Who will be spending more time fox hunting in Ulster.
> 
> Andrew Adonis misses longlist for Labour Vauxhall nomination
> 
> Hopefully the new candidate won't be Florence Eshalomi. Another New Labour loyalist. Ex Lambeth Cllr.



I assume Eshalomi is going to be the candidate that everyone else coalesces around


----------



## CH1 (Oct 21, 2019)

CH1 said:


> It would be a bit weird if Ibrahim Dougus didn't promote himself in his own paper. Especially as he is Mayor of Lambeth this year.
> 
> I think Kevin could have complained about this before. Meaning before Kate Hoey said she was retiring. One therefore assumes Kevin has a dog in the race as they say.
> 
> Why doesn't he book an emergency showing of Citizen Kane for the Cinema Museum? Kill two birds with one stone - lampoon the allegedly power mad mayor, and raise funds for a worthy local charity!



Further to the Dougus issue, I notice that The Clarion - a blog which says it is published by Labour and Momentum activists has really stuck the knife in Does Vauxhall Labour want a self-promoting millionaire as its MP?


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 21, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Oct 21, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> I assume Eshalomi is going to be the candidate that everyone else coalesces around



Why do you think that?

She made her career in politics by being 100% Blairitie Lambeth Cllr. She isn't to my mind a candidate who could be seen as neutral. 

I have friend in Labour party who refused to canvass for her as she is so right wing. That person is not a full on Corbynite.

Its that people like Florence have made nice careers in politics sucking up to whatever the politics of the day is. In her case Blair/ Progress led Lambeth Council. 

I really hope she does not get the seat.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 21, 2019)

more here:

Revealed: Labour’s Vauxhall MP selection shortlist - LabourList



> There is vocal opposition from some local members to Dogus’ candidacy, as he has been accused of not being on the Labour left, not paying the London Living Wage in all of his businesses and using personal wealth to advance his campaign, particularly through the _Lambeth Life_ newspaper.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 21, 2019)

The Clarion:



> Labour should be trying to give a voice to trade unionists and working-class campaigners, not wealthy bosses who can afford to set up their own newspapers in order to parachute themselves into a safe seat, and whose record suggests a commitment mainly to self-promotion. If Corbyn (or some around him) and some major unions are seriously backing Ibrahim Dogus in the upcoming Vauxhall selection, then perhaps in the future they should do more due diligence first, or consider the political principles involved more seriously.
> 
> Moreover, we need to win in the Labour Party a political culture and political representatives that advance, well, labour over capital.



This is example of what I said about Florence. She saw New Labour as they say to get on in politics. 

Dogus sees appearing to support Corbyn as the way. Despite being a petty bourgeois businessman.

As the article says :


*Does Vauxhall Labour want a self-promoting millionaire as its MP?*


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 21, 2019)

Dogus supported Yvette Cooper for leader.

His liking for Jeremy appears to be recent.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 21, 2019)

When he was trying to get up the slippery pole of politics in Enfield he started something called "Enfield Voice". When his political aspirations in Enfield came to nothing he decided Lambeth was his political home. Then started Lambeth Voice.

It beggars belief a pushy self promoter can get this far in politics. He hasn't got any politics. Its whatever is ascendent at the time.


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 22, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Why do you think that?
> 
> She made her career in politics by being 100% Blairitie Lambeth Cllr. She isn't to my mind a candidate who could be seen as neutral.
> 
> ...



Everyone else on the centre-right was more what I was thinking - so if Dogus and Clark are the possible HQ/Left picks there must be people on the right/centre - Holland and Florence


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The Clarion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's nicer to see a self-promoting millionaire rather than one who engages firms to big them up


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 24, 2019)

Various Labour tweeters from outside of Lambeth reported earlier this evening that Labour HQ have cancelled constituency selection meetings due to be held tonight anticipation of a snap election. Not sure if this affects either Vauxhall or Streatham.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 25, 2019)

BusLanes said:


> Various Labour tweeters from outside of Lambeth reported earlier this evening that Labour HQ have cancelled constituency selection meetings due to be held tonight anticipation of a snap election. Not sure if this affects either Vauxhall or Streatham.


You mean snappier than December 12th?


----------



## catriona (Oct 25, 2019)

What do people make of Katy Clark, the Momentum candidate?  She was a Scottish Labour MSP in Ayrshire until the SNP landslide in 2015 yet says she moved to Vauxhall in 1998.


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 25, 2019)

catriona said:


> What do people make of Katy Clark, the Momentum candidate?  She was a Scottish Labour MSP in Ayrshire until the SNP landslide in 2015 yet says she moved to Vauxhall in 1998.



It is possible she did both. North Vauxhall has loads of MPs and party staffers living there and assumedly she was one of those candidates who's qualification was as much they were from HQ. Scottish Labour being historically notorious for being a safe place to park HQ candidates or people who couldn't expect to win a seat the normal way.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 25, 2019)

catriona said:


> What do people make of Katy Clark, the Momentum candidate?  She was a Scottish Labour MSP in Ayrshire until the SNP landslide in 2015 yet says she moved to Vauxhall in 1998.



Katy Clark: Why I'm standing to replace Kate Hoey in Vauxhall - LabourList

She sounds good to me from reading this.


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## Gramsci (Oct 25, 2019)

Interview: Katy Clark

This interview with her in 2009 shows she has track record of not supporting New Labour. 

She also was an early supporter of Corbyn for leader.


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## Gramsci (Oct 25, 2019)

Definitely Katy for Vauxhall. 

Experienced, not New Labour, supports Corbyn. 

She also understands the constituency contains a lot of people from other EU countries. 

So on the left but a Remainer.


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## Gramsci (Oct 25, 2019)

Another thing. There should have been an all women shortlist. 

Of the two female candidates Katy is the best.

I really don't want New Labour Florence to get seat.


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## Gramsci (Oct 26, 2019)

For some reason the BBC decided to have Kate Hoey on the Today Programme this morning. 

I don't know why. She is going thank God . 

I really couldn't listen to all she said as she really winds me up now. 

She actually said most Labour MPs seats were in "Leave" areas.

At this point in morning I see Red and can't listen to her drivel any more. 

She goes on about most Labour area being Leave.

Sorry Kate unfortunately for you inner London was solidly Remain. And that includes the working class. 

So please shut up and fuck off to spend more time with your mates in Brexit party and DUP.

I want an MP like Kate Clark who is on the left but not a right wing Brexiter like Union Jack waving Hoey.

Really do wish the media would stop giving her media time.


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## Gramsci (Oct 26, 2019)

On Florence the other women candidate. Ex Lambeth Cllr and fully paid up member of New Labour.

She was interested in the Streatham seat as Chuka, a darling of the New Labour faction, decided to be a Liberal Democrat. That is he could not stand the increase in membership of Labour party or members in having a say.

She wanted to replace him. Somewhat bizarre this imo. Chuka was darling of New Labour. Yet she wanted to replace him.

I've yet to understand why the more right wing Labour party members I know now think Chuka is terrible.

She intervened in elections for local party posts in Streatham and was roundly and rightly criticised for this.

The New Labour slate of candidates didn't do well.

Chuka constituency is now run by the left. Why Chuka left he couldn't deal with this. He left before he was pushed. He hadn't made himself popular with his attacks on Corbyn and all he stands for. Right wing prick is better of in LDs.

Anger in Streatham over Progress AM’s attempt to influence AGM – and Umunna replacement process


> Chuka was Progress and Flo is the Progress front-runner to be the candidate. Streatham needs an MP who identifies with what the Labour Party stands for. We can’t afford to let Chuka mark two become our candidate.



As the left now control Streatham Florence stood no chance. Hence her trying for Vauxhall.


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## catriona (Oct 27, 2019)

Florence Eshalomi won


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## CH1 (Oct 27, 2019)

She is humbled beyond her wildest imagination


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## BusLanes (Oct 27, 2019)

So far leaked out on Twitter that it was Eshalomi then Clark, then Holland. Presumably Dogus is fourth?


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## Southlondon (Oct 28, 2019)

I voted Clark but out of the other candidates, Florence was next best choice. Her time on the GLA away from the Vauxhall clique has freed her from the strong constituency blairitte influences. She’s a black woman born and bred in Brixton, and had the strong support of members from the south part of the constituency.She was outside the Lambeth council clique who had heavily supported Claire Holland who is awful, so if nothing else her victory would have wound up jack and co. She will be a good MP


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## Gramsci (Oct 28, 2019)

A disappointing result.

Florence Eshalomi is supporter of the Progress wing of the Labour party. Why she did so well in Lambeth Council.

She supported Liz Kendall for leader of the party. Like the Progress led Labour Council in Lambeth.

100% New Labour. I know Labour party members who refused to canvass for her at election times due to her right wing politics. And these people aren't hard left.

Whatever she might say now when the right have got rid of Corbyn she will revert to form.


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## Gramsci (Oct 28, 2019)

Labour List reckon it was close. Florence won over Clark as she got more second preference votes. Second preference went to her to keep that self publicist Dogus out. If Mr Pushy hadn't been in race it might have ended differently.




> In what will be a disappointing result for the Labour leadership, *Florence Eshalomi* has been picked as the parliamentary candidate in the safe seat of Vauxhall.





> In terms of first preferences, there were just 11 votes between Eshalomi (with 165) and Clark (with 156), while Holland secured 117 votes and 84 went to Dogus.






> The Lambeth and Southwark London Assembly member and City Hall Labour transport spokesperson, who used to be a Lambeth councillor, will replace Kate Hoey as Labour’s candidate at the next election.
> 
> Local members in attendance today said she delivered a notable speech, described by journalist and party activist Paul Mason as “moving and from the heart”.
> 
> ...



Super Sunday: Labour candidate selection results - LabourList

Florence stood no chance in Streatham. Now run by the left despite Florence's intervention.


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## Gramsci (Oct 28, 2019)

Florence was a member of the Progress Strategy Board for a number of years. So a fully paid up supporter. 

Its hard to know who is member of Progress in Lambeth.


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## CH1 (Oct 29, 2019)

I guess now there is to be an election sometime between 9th - 12th December everything should be plain sailing for Labour - unless Kate implodes and stands for the Brexit party as someone rumoured.


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## brixtonpete (Oct 30, 2019)

CH1 said:


> I guess now there is to be an election sometime between 9th - 12th December everything should be plain sailing for Labour - unless Kate implodes and stands for the Brexit party as someone rumoured.



United we stand, divided we fall... or why I feel gloomy about the prospect of Boris getting back in with a slightly increased majority, pushing through his crap Brexit deal, and this country continuing on its slow but steady rightward course.

I write as a Remain voter in a strongly Remain area, but am also a regular visitor to a 2016 Leave voting village in North Yorkshire where we will be moving sometime in the next few years, where Brexit Party leaflets cover one's doormat like takeaway leaflets down here. Luckily there are also a good bunch of left/green activists, but it's a case of an active minority versus a silent majority. I once caught a Brexit leafleteer popping a leaflet through our door. "Why do you want to leave the EU?" I asked. "Oh, I'm not particularly interested, I'm just helping out a friend with a delivery," and he scuttled off. The very silent majority! The local Conservative councillor had a massive billboard in the grounds of her manse alongside the road pronouncing our local area 'Votes Leave'. When I took it up with the local council, they said that as it didn't contain the word 'council' it wasn't breaking any rules.

A few weeks ago it appeared that if the opposition were to unite, a vote of no confidence could bring down Boris and a government of national unity could push through a second referendum, but the three main opposition parties could not come to an agreement. Jo Swinson insisted on publicly bad mouthing Labour in general and Jeremy Corbyn in particular and Jeremy Corbyn said the leader has to be me otherwise forget it - two leaders with over inflated egos. Jo Swinson now is promoted the myth that the LibDems could win an election outright with an overall majority. Between them Jo Swinson and Jeremy Corbyn were/are stuck in their Westminster bubbles and won't budge. Given our broken electoral system the only chance of stopping Brexit was a second referendum, which appears to have been scuppered by the SNP and LibDems pushing for an election, which a weak Jeremy Corbyn felt he had to go along with.

The SNP are in a 'Heads we Win, Tails you Lose' situation which explains their enthusiasm for an election. If Boris wins and takes the UK out of the EU with his crap deal that makes an independent Scotland an odds on - just what the SNP want, and they'll eventually get back into the EU via that route. The SNP don't care if Labour get trounced down south as they'll likely get another landslide in Scotland. If Labour do win and Brexit gets scrapped then the SNP will still be strong in Scotland. Why the LibDems are pushing for an election now remains a mystery, other than political naivety by their leader. A united Ireland will also be an increased possibility, but less so than if the 'Two Borders Boris' plan hadn't been pulled.

A Labour leadership battle wouldn't do Labour's electoral chances any good, but what if Jeremy Corbyn had voluntarily handed over the reins to Keir Starmer? Jeremy Corbyn may be a fantastic campaigner at rallies with great policies, but if Labour had a greater chance of being elected with Keir Starmer as leader facing Boris Johnson over the dispatch box, which he has proved he can do very effectively, why not face reality and give Labour the best possible chance of trashing this far right Tory government at the polls?

I do hope that I will be proved wrong!


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## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2019)

brixtonpete said:


> United we stand, divided we fall... or why I feel gloomy about the prospect of Boris getting back in with a slightly increased majority, pushing through his crap Brexit deal, and this country continuing on its slow but steady rightward course.
> 
> I write as a Remain voter in a strongly Remain area, but am also a regular visitor to a 2016 Leave voting village in North Yorkshire where we will be moving sometime in the next few years, where Brexit Party leaflets cover one's doormat like takeaway leaflets down here. Luckily there are also a good bunch of left/green activists, but it's a case of an active minority versus a silent majority. I once caught a Brexit leafleteer popping a leaflet through our door. "Why do you want to leave the EU?" I asked. "Oh, I'm not particularly interested, I'm just helping out a friend with a delivery," and he scuttled off. The very silent majority! The local Conservative councillor had a massive billboard in the grounds of her manse alongside the road pronouncing our local area 'Votes Leave'. When I took it up with the local council, they said that as it didn't contain the word 'council' it wasn't breaking any rules.
> 
> ...



On Corbyn. He had every right to head a caretaker government that was for five weeks whilst an election was called.

I heard Swinson on radio this morning. She was repeating her personal attacks. She said neither Boris or Corbyn "were fit to run the country". 

I'm a Remainer but a lot of Remain message is about returning to the so called centre politics.

Hence Corbyn being dismissed as a caretaker PM. Its not his ego. Its what he represents to the establishment. A Left wing politics.

Secondly , like it or not, at least half the country still want to leave. 

A new referendum isn't going to alter that. The result may be just be to remain. But a lot of people are going to be angry the result wasn't honoured first time.

Corbyn out of all the leaders is promising a realistic deal / remain options in referendum. Its a principled position of a leader of a national party.


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## belboid (Nov 15, 2019)

News that will shock no one - Former Labour MP and Brexiteer Kate Hoey reveals she will vote DUP in general election


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## Gramsci (Nov 15, 2019)

belboid said:


> News that will shock no one - Former Labour MP and Brexiteer Kate Hoey reveals she will vote DUP in general election



Even worse:


> Asked if she would have voted for the Brexit Party or Conservative Party if she was voting in the capital, she said “yes I would”, adding that “the country comes before party politics in this election”.



I almost wished she had stayed in Labour party so her local membership could de select her. 

Anyone who thinks of voting for DUP or a party Farage is leader of is a Union Jack waving nationalist. 

Its appaling that someone who was an MP for inner city London can even think of voting for parties like DUP or Brexit party. 

In fact she epitomises what DUP/ Brexit party are all about. 

Flag waving Nationalism.


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## editor (Jun 8, 2020)

#alllivesmatter says Kate Hoey as she swerves full right


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## ash (Jun 12, 2020)

editor said:


> #alllivesmatter says Kate Hoey as she swerves full right



She’s all over Twitter like a Tory Covid rash she’s a bloody disgrace


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## ash (Jun 12, 2020)

ash said:


> She’s all over Twitter like a Tory Covid rash she’s a bloody disgrace


Today she was slagging off Florence Eshalomi her successor she really is a piece of work


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## thebackrow (Jun 12, 2020)

ash said:


> Today she was slagging off Florence Eshalomi her successor she really is a piece of work


it's so hard to understand how such a multi-cultural borough suffered so long under someone who seems to be an outright right wing racist.


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## Torpid Scorpion (Jun 13, 2020)

What a *ng disgrace she is.


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## CH1 (Jun 13, 2020)

Is she retweeting Guido fake news here, or is there an explanation?


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## Gramsci (Jun 15, 2020)

She has been using her twitter to support BLM in one way. Posting pictures of British soldiers killed by IRA who happened to be Black.

This is nonsense. Whatever one thinks of IRA they killed British soldiers because they were in British Army. Not because they were Black.


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## Gramsci (Jun 15, 2020)

I was clearing out stuff on weekend. Found an old SLP with Kate Hoey piece.

She was a very good constituency MP and not New Labour. A thorn in the side of New Labour.

New Labour embraced the market and multiculturalism. Hoey came from Northern Ireland Unionist background. The middle class metropolitan elites who ran Labour party in Blair time had nothing in common with her. 

This was her strength and weakness. 

Brexit came along and she went off on one. From sticking up for her constituents against a New Labour Council she allowed her ingrained Unionist sympathies full reign.

This I will never understand.Someone who listened and stuck up for those she represented ( and I know several people who got personal phone calls from her. She didnt delegate to staff like Tessa Jowell did) She refused to listen to them on Brexit. Overwhelming pro Remain seat.


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## CH1 (Jun 15, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I was clearing out stuff on weekend. Found an old SLP with Kate Hoey piece.
> 
> She was a very good constituency MP and not New Labour. A thorn in the side of New Labour.
> 
> ...


It would appear from Stanford University's department of Political Philosophy that Kate Hoey's mode of representation was  GYROSCOPIC

In contrast, Jane Mansbridge has identified four views of democratic political representation: promissory, anticipatory, surrogate and gyroscopic. Mansbridge argues that each of these views provides an account of both how democratic political representatives "act for" the people they represent and the normative criteria for assessing the actions of representatives.[7] _Promissory_ representation is a form of representation in which representatives are chosen and assessed based on the promises they make to the people they represent during election campaigns. For Mansbridge, promissory representation, preoccupied with how representatives are chosen (authorized) and held to account through elections, is the traditional view of democratic political representation. Anticipatory, surrogate and gyroscopic representation, on the other hand, are more modern views that have emerged from the work of empirical political scientists. _Anticipatory_ representatives take actions that they believe voters (the represented) will reward in the next election. _Surrogate_representation occurs when representatives "act for" the interest of people outside their constituencies. Finally, in _gyroscopic_ representation, representatives use their own judgements to determine how and for what they should act for on behalf of the people they represent.[1]


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## bellaozzydog (Jun 15, 2020)

Has anyone discussed the simple wooden stake to the heart option


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## co-op (Jun 15, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Brexit came along and she went off on one. From sticking up for her constituents against a New Labour Council she allowed her ingrained Unionist sympathies full reign.



I do take your point about her as a constituency MP she was not bad, but she was always a Unionist loonspud, I remember a hustings from 2010, possibly 2005, when there were Irish candidates for at least 2 of the other parties and the Chair made a joke about how many Irish candidates there were fighting in the seat and KH loudly (and in no way as a joke) interrupted and said "I'M BRITISH". Cue quite lengthy embarrassed silence.


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## sleaterkinney (Jul 31, 2020)

In the Lords now, reward for brexit. Sickening.


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## Streathamite (Aug 1, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> In the Lords now, reward for brexit. Sickening.


At least zshe's out of the political hair of the good folk of Brixton, Stockwell and Vauxhall


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## ash (Aug 1, 2020)

Florence seems to be really hands on so - win win!


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## CH1 (Nov 9, 2020)

I see newly ennobled Baroness Hoey now sits with Baroness Claire Fox on the back row in the Lords.
Both banging on about the necessity to break the Good Friday Agreement because of the massive number of Brits who voted for Brexit.

Unfortunately even if they get rid of Trump in America we are still lumbered with these two Shrews until they die - courtesy of our unelected upper chamber.


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## killer b (Nov 9, 2020)

'shrews'


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## CH1 (Nov 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> 'shrews'











						Shrew (stock character) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## killer b (Nov 9, 2020)

I know what a shrew is.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 9, 2020)

CH1 said:


> I see newly ennobled Baroness Hoey now sits with Baroness Claire Fox on the back row in the Lords.
> Both banging on about the necessity to break the Good Friday Agreement because of the massive number of Brits who voted for Brexit.
> 
> Unfortunately even if they get rid of Trump in America we are still lumbered with these two Shrews until they die - courtesy of our unelected upper chamber.


are you going to call them shrill harpies next?


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## colacubes (Nov 9, 2020)

That is shit, sexist language CH1. You're better than that.


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## CH1 (Nov 9, 2020)

colacubes said:


> That is shit, sexist language CH1. You're better than that.


Fair enough - but being derided as a Woke snowflake by the likes of these ladies gets a bit wearing on Facebook and Twitter.
Where's the justice and/or good taste in  that?


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## CH1 (Nov 9, 2020)

Orang Utan said:


> are you going to call them shrill harpies next?


I was going to - but I let Claire Fox off because of her RCP background.


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## CH1 (Nov 9, 2020)

Regrettably Coldwar Steve has not got round to incorporating Kate Hoey in his tableaux


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## Gramsci (Nov 10, 2020)

Looking at her recent Twitter:


Biden is a friend of terrorists
BLM is unpatriotic
She seems to have something against the Good Friday agreement. 
She really hates BLM.

Looking at her twitter one would not think she had been a Labour MP for an inner London constituency for years. 

Its like now she is in the Lords she can now be her real self.


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## belboid (Nov 10, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> She seems to have something against the Good Friday agreement


It was a disgraceful sellout that betrayed the martyrs, only the gun will being about Irish unity.

Eamonn McCann has a nice story about her turning up at a leading provo's doorstep after they'd agreed to it and demanding to talk to him, to tell him why he was wrong.  His response was surprisingly anglo-saxon.

(Oops, just realised this is the Kate host thread not the rcp one.  The idea of hoey decrying the gfa as a sellout to unionists is...amusing)


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## donkyboy (Nov 10, 2020)

Tbf, she did assist somewhat when I was on the housing waiting list for ages. Placed bids after bids on property and never getting even a viewing. I wrote to her and within a week got a response back saying contact has been made with lambeth. I then got a call from lambeth housing to discuss options etc.  it wasn't long after that that I got a viewing and got my own council flat-which I love. This was over 6 years ago.  Not sure if her intervention helped or not (probably not) but the fact that it got lambeth to call me was appreciated.


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## happyshopper (Nov 11, 2020)

She helped a near neighbour get their house as well. But this doesn’t validate her political views in any way.


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## Gramsci (Nov 12, 2020)

Her views on housing are part and parcel of her political view.

Looking at her voting record. She supports NHS and generally is on what would be considered on the left.

She is no Tory.

This is mixed in with what could be termed patriotic nationalism. But she thinks those in the National state should get decent housing and healthcare for example. She also opposed the Iraq war and has no time for Blair.

She reminds me of Trump in some ways.

Make UK great again with Brexit, anti BLM.

But she is genuine in her desire to see people have decent living standards.

She didnt join in trying to get rid of Corbyn either.


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## happyshopper (Nov 13, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Her views on housing are part and parcel of her political view.
> 
> Looking at her voting record. She supports NHS and generally is on what would be considered on the left.
> 
> She is no Tory.


Since being in the House of Lords she has voted consistently with the Tories.


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## Gramsci (Nov 13, 2020)

happyshopper said:


> Since being in the House of Lords she has voted consistently with the Tories.












						Voting record - Baroness Hoey, former MP
					

See how Baroness Hoey voted on topics like Employment, Social Issues, Foreign Policy, and more.




					www.theyworkforyou.com
				




Looking at this and her voting record is mixed.


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## RoyReed (Nov 13, 2020)

happyshopper said:


> Since being in the House of Lords she has voted consistently with the Tories.


She was the chair of the Countryside Alliance for about ten years - the huntin', shootin', fishin' mob. Could you get more Tory?


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## CH1 (Nov 14, 2020)

They replayed the debate this morning on BBC Parliament.
To be fair Kate Hoey's contribution was run of the mill Unionist (DUP)
The really obnoxious speech, which made me riled originally was from Claire Fox.
In retrospect I think she was given a Baronetcy to avoid giving one to Nigel Farage - or even worse Richard Oakshott Tice.
At least Fox can claim to be some sort of moral maze shock jock, whereas Farage and even more so Tice are outright fascists.


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## Gramsci (Nov 14, 2020)

RoyReed said:


> She was the chair of the Countryside Alliance for about ten years - the huntin', shootin', fishin' mob. Could you get more Tory?



Living in Lambeth and it is not so straightforward.

Kate was to the the left of the Lambeth New Labour Council on issues like Council housing.

New Labour Lambeth was "progressive" on say BLM.

So a Neo Liberal New Labour Council can appear to be not "Tory" on some issues. But economicallly its accepts the idea that the only way is accomodating to globalised Capitalism. As seen in Hondo Towers.

So imo this New Labour lot are with the Cameron type Tories. Kate is not.

There is imo a shared centre ground.

Its looking to me with the demise of so called populists of left and right ( Corbyn and Trump) we will see return to supposedly "rational" centre ground politics.


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## BusLanes (Nov 20, 2020)

Hoey is like most poeple hard to pigeonhole. I know people she taught (or they went to her school) before she went to parliament who have been quite surprised by her anti BLM stuff.
Her Countryside Alliance stuff apparently is due to her upbringing in the country. I sort of get that having grown up in a similar place. That being said, I have no time for fox hunting, either for the sport or the alleged support to the rural economy.


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## CH1 (Jun 26, 2021)

She was back today - with an extended interview with Michelle Duesberry on the Northern Ireland situation on GB News.
Says it all - two obsessively self-centred people putting the world to rights.
Appropriate too - since Kate jhad a large hand in causing the problem she was laying  down the law about.


Looks like GB News is simply repeating this over and over - their Youtube posting is  two days old - but |I stumbled on the interview today, just pror to Hamcock resigns shock


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## CH1 (Nov 23, 2021)

The redoubtable former Labour MP for Vauxhall is guest of the day today on Politics Live.
No doubt her experience of Lambeth Council estates will prove invaluable in slagging off economic migrants coming across the channel in boats.








						BBC Two - Politics Live, 23/11/2021
					

Jo Coburn and guests discuss the Tory rebellion over social care and the migrant crisis.




					www.bbc.co.uk


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## CH1 (Jan 7, 2022)

She's now upsetting progressive people in Northern Ireland via an article in Unionist Voice








						Baroness Hoey criticised for attack on ‘anti-Union activists’
					

Comments by Baroness Hoey suggesting that nationalists in the media, courts and other professions are using their position “to exert influence on those in power” have been criticised as “depressingly bleak”.




					www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk


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## CH1 (Jan 28, 2022)

Still upsetting ZanuPF supporters:


see 

Unusually I agree with Ms Hoey that something needs to be done to re-launch proper political discourse in Zimbabwe.
That said Kate Hoey surely has to hang her head in shame for the farce that is current UK politics courtesy Vote Leave and Big Dick Johnson.


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## BusLanes (Jan 28, 2022)

Well Kate was a member of Leave EU so we can't blame Vote Leave on her. But yes, she seems sound on Zimbabwe


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## CH1 (Jun 19, 2022)

Not sure if this very long hatchet job has done the rounds. I't about Kate in her Kinnock/John Major/Joan Twelves era:





						Kate Hoey: member of parliament
					






					briandeer.com
				




I loved this half-way through:

It’s a strange place, at the best of times, to be a member of parliament, but Hoey has a specially weird position in the beleaguered borough’s affairs. While MPs are normally chosen by their constituency organisations, Hoey was picked by Neil Kinnock’s high command and imposed on local activists in a by-election four years ago in a bid to modernise the party’s image. They, you see, are mostly of the Left and she is emphatically of the Right.

From the activists’ viewpoint, it was an unforgivable imposition, but Hoey has set about her mission to reform with an evangelical zeal. After the Gulf War fiasco (when some councillors were alleged to have shouted “Victory to Iraq” in the town hall), Hoey called on the party leadership to once again exercise its power. Twelves – the leader – plus her deputy, the chief whip and ten others were either suspended or expelled from the borough Labour group – and Hoey made no secret that she rejoiced.


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## Gramsci (Jun 20, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Not sure if this very long hatchet job has done the rounds. I't about Kate in her Kinnock/John Major/Joan Twelves era:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting read. Article is from 1993.

At this time Kate saw herself as getting rid of the left in the party. Even though Joan Twelves as leader was acknowledged to be making good progress in cleaning up Lambeth Council.

I've only known her from her more recent days as hammer of the right - Lambeth Blairite Labour.

What the article , due to its date, does not explain is how she moved from the right of the party ( Kinnock) getting rid of the left, even when they are trying to clean up borough, to the opposing New Labour.

She even managed the feat of getting disliked by the left and right of local party due to her verging on UKIP type support of Brexit in her later years.


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## CH1 (Dec 9, 2022)

The old girl might be right here Lambeth council accused of ‘abuse of power’ over approval for Make South Bank scheme


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## BusLanes (Dec 9, 2022)

She was usually quite good on challenging the Council. Pity she became such a spokeswoman for the DUP and such


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