# Fridge Bar blames black people for club closures



## editor (Feb 28, 2014)

Blimey, this is certainly stirring people up. The Fridge Bar has posted up a list of closed venues and added: 


> Almost every single venue has closed because of violence, the threat of violence, disrespect to their staff and coming to the inevitable conclusion that it is better to close than putting up with that bullshit. Venues such as Hidden and Colosseum which is closing soon will tell you of the horrendous problems that they experienced. They are closing due to redevelopment. But speak to the promoters of Circo Loco, AudioWhore or Back to 95′. You might be shocked at what they have to say.
> 
> The absolute majority of people who have disrupted theses venues are black men and increasingly some black women. There, I said it. It is true, I have witnessed it and there is both anecdotal and empirical evidence that what I say is true.


Full text: http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/02/fridge-bar-brixton-blames-black-people-for-club-closures/

Their facebook page has some interesting responses with almost everyone is agreeing with what's been posted.


----------



## Balbi (Feb 28, 2014)

Good spot ed 

I reckon he could have made the point without the Chris Rock crack at the end and caused less furore.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 28, 2014)

Just read that, nothing about socio economics, changing demographic. Not really qualified to comment on the club scene but it strikes me as bitter bullshit of the worst kind.
Marginalise a group of people, divide them again, turn them on themselves. The surprise is that people are so easily led.


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2014)

Balbi said:


> I reckon he could have made the point without the Chris Rock crack at the end and caused less furore.


The Chris Rock reference really doesn't add anything, but some of what's been written certainly chimes with what I've heard from some club owners who have stated that they will never put on 'black/urban' events again because of the trouble. It's pretty depressing stuff.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 28, 2014)

Who is _he_, who wrote that?


----------



## Balbi (Feb 28, 2014)

editor said:


> The Chris Rock reference really doesn't add anything, but some of what's been written certainly chimes with what I've heard from some club owners who have stated that they will never put on 'black/urban' events again because of the trouble. It's pretty depressing stuff.





Facts and chiming with evidence is one thing, using a deliberately provocative comedy sketch to illustrate your point using reclaimed language is another. I think. I probably, definitely don't know enough and will therefore shut my trap


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Who is _he_, who wrote that?


I don't know if it's a he or a she, but I'm assuming that they're the owner of the bar.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 28, 2014)

Balbi said:


> Facts and chiming with evidence is one thing, using a deliberately provocative comedy sketch to illustrate your point using reclaimed language is another. I think. I probably, definitely don't know enough and will therefore shut my trap



You are spot on IMO. ...and as for the reclaimed language thing...very few Black people I know use the term 'nigga' when referring to others or themselves... It's a very dangerous generalisation to assume or imply that there is one 'black' community and that the concept of good _Black people Vs Niggas_ is something the majority actually accept/believe in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

i thought that this would be blaming black people for club closures on the grounds they weren't going to the clubs any more due to the changing demographic of the area, the withdrawal of their custom. it's a pity yer man doesn't seem able to provide any of the empirical evidence he declares exists.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 28, 2014)

editor said:


> I don't know if it's a he or a she, but I'm assuming that they're the owner of the bar.


 
Yes I think so. I tried Googling to find out who he is but unfortunately that just gets to the story of the Fridge Bar owner beating someone up with a metal bar a few years ago. 

Now I'm assuming there's a new owner or that's some epic hypocracy.


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought that this would be blaming black people for club closures on the grounds they weren't going to the clubs any more due to the changing demographic of the area, the withdrawal of their custom. it's a pity yer man doesn't seem able to provide any of the empirical evidence he declares exists.


I'm not necessarily endorsing everything that's been written, but I categorically know of two local clubs who have stopped doing nights for the reasons listed in that post because they feared they'd lose their licence. One of the clubs is black-run. I think I might know the club that has 'secretly' been put up for sale too.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 28, 2014)

I'm not at all familiar with the sociopolitical situation in the area, but the question I find myself asking is "what (legitimate, ie other than racist) purpose does identifying the racial groups responsible for this behaviour serve?" (I often ask myself questions with brackets in). 

Because it seems to me that there is likely to be no significant reason why what they're claiming to have happened has to have any racial component beyond the perpetrators just happening to be black, and the "there, I said it"  remark smells a bit too much like the attitudes of the casual racist who complains that political correctness prevents him from telling us how it is, and who, in a kind of passive aggressive way paints his racism as a blow struck against the orthodoxy. 

I'm not a club person, but I sure as fuck wouldn't want to go to a place run by someone who's doing a rather good job of coming across as just dying to get his digs in at the expense of the local black population.


----------



## Citizen66 (Feb 28, 2014)

Balbi said:
			
		

> Good spot ed
> 
> I reckon he could have made the point without the Chris Rock crack at the end and caused less furore.



Grand opening... grand closing!


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 28, 2014)

From what I can gather from one of the facebook comments, the person who posted that is also black. Just to give a little bit of context re: the Chris Rock comment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

editor said:


> I'm not necessarily endorsing everything that's been written, but I categorically know of two local clubs who have stopped doing nights for the reasons listed in that post because they feared they'd lose their licence. One of the clubs is black-run. I think I might know the club that has 'secretly' been put up for sale too.


it's always surprised me how you can have venues close to each other which attract very different clienteles and have very different ambiences. for example, there used to be a pub in north finchley called the tilted glass which was very much an old man's pub, while round the corner a minute's walk away was the coach and horses outside which (and occasionally inside) were regular fights. there were another five or six other pubs within a few minutes walk which were at some point between the ends of the spectrum. now, it seems to me on the basis of this pub equivalent that there is likely something provoking the sort of behaviour yer man deplores - most black people, like most people of any hue, are perfectly well behaved. it's only going to be a few people who are causing this sort of difficulty. yet he seems to shy away from any analysis of the whys and wherefores of what seems a complex issue rather tarring a great number of people for the actions of a few. i would not be surprised if this impacts on the trade his place does.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Feb 28, 2014)

existentialist said:


> I'm not at all familiar with the sociopolitical situation in the area, but the question I find myself asking is "what (legitimate, ie other than racist) purpose does identifying the racial groups responsible for this behaviour serve?" (I often ask myself questions with brackets in).
> 
> Because it seems to me that there is likely to be no significant reason why what they're claiming to have happened has to have any racial component beyond the perpetrators just happening to be black, and the "there, I said it"  remark smells a bit too much like the attitudes of the casual racist who complains that political correctness prevents him from telling us how it is, and who, in a kind of passive aggressive way paints his racism as a blow struck against the orthodoxy.
> 
> I'm not a club person, but I sure as fuck wouldn't want to go to a place run by someone who's doing a rather good job of coming across as just dying to get his digs in at the expense of the local black population.



Would you feel differently if (as I assumed) the author was black?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 28, 2014)

existentialist said:


> I'm not at all familiar with the sociopolitical situation in the area, but the question I find myself asking is "what (legitimate, ie other than racist) purpose does identifying the racial groups responsible for this behaviour serve?" (I often ask myself questions with brackets in).
> 
> Because it seems to me that there is likely to be no significant reason why what they're claiming to have happened has to have any racial component beyond the perpetrators just happening to be black, and the "there, I said it"  remark smells a bit too much like the attitudes of the casual racist who complains that political correctness prevents him from telling us how it is, and who, in a kind of passive aggressive way paints his racism as a blow struck against the orthodoxy.
> 
> I'm not a club person, but I sure as fuck wouldn't want to go to a place run by someone who's doing a rather good job of coming across as just dying to get his digs in at the expense of the local black population.


 
Well I might be wrong (as I've said I haven't found confirmation of who he is) but I think the person who wrote that is black. Certainly his venue puts on a lot of events featuring black acts playing to predominantly black audiences. And if you look at the original facebook page the comments are largely from black clubbers and predominantly in agreement. So whatever the rights and wrongs of what he's saying I think that portrayal is wrong tbh.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 28, 2014)

OK, head above the parapet time.

I, along with several other engineers I know, will now no longer crew any D&B/R&B/Urban type music event. It's just not worth the hassle. The level of trouble, intimidation and general unpleasantness that inevitably happens isn't worth it.

The thing is though, here in Birmingham at least, the racial background of those involved has nothing to do with it. The events have just as big a mix of people as any other. But there is clearly something about those scenes that has built up a particular style/attitude and attracts utter cunts. They may be a minority of the people there, but they're significant enough to bring the whole event down.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 28, 2014)

What about intelligent/innovative jungle?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> OK, head above the parapet time.
> 
> I, along with several other engineers I know, will now no longer crew any D&B/R&B/Urban type music event. It's just not worth the hassle. The level of trouble, intimidation and general unpleasantness that inevitably happens isn't worth it.
> 
> The thing is though, here in Birmingham at least, the racial background of those involved has nothing to do with it. The events have just as big a mix of people as any other. But there is clearly something about those scenes that has built up a particular style/attitude and attracts utter cunts. They may be a minority of the people there, but they're significant enough to bring the whole event down.


cunts are cunts be they black white yellow or piebald. race should have nothing to do with it, it's to my mind a complex issue as it seems to focus on some clubs while there may be - and likely are - quite a few clubs with a similar style which have not been so afflicted. why some and not others? is it the same people going from club to club? why tar all 18-35 black people, who are not in themselves a homogenous bunch anyway?


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Feb 28, 2014)

Well it's obviously a broad sweeping statement.

Brockwells had a predominantly black clientele and closed so that supports the argument.

Telegraph, GeorgeIV & Mass closed for very different reasons and was not actually to do with young black male violence.

The clubs business is inherently sporadic and intermittent.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 28, 2014)

My understanding is that it is the older black community criticising the younger black community based on their experience. The OP is definitely black so I'm not sure accusing him or her of racism is legitimate.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> cunts are cunts be they black white yellow or piebald. race should have nothing to do with it, it's to my mind a complex issue as it seems to focus on some clubs while there may be - and likely are - quite a few clubs with a similar style which have not been so afflicted. why some and not others? is it the same people going from club to club? why tar all 18-35 black people, who are not in themselves a homogenous bunch anyway?


He specifically says that the behaviour is not necessarily a minority and is in any case tolerated/condoned by the majority.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

Ms T said:


> He specifically says that the behaviour is not necessarily a minority and is in any case tolerated/condoned by the majority.


yes, tarring them all as i said


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 28, 2014)

editor said:


> Their facebook page has some interesting responses with almost everyone is agreeing with what's been posted.



Interesting though that the responses claim there was never trouble at raves 10 or 15 years ago. A case of rose tinted specs I think. There's always been shit that goes on, especially in a culture that has a lot of drug use.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 28, 2014)

Silas Loom said:


> Would you feel differently if (as I assumed) the author was black?


I'd be even more confused


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

Ms T said:


> He specifically says that the behaviour is not necessarily a minority and is in any case tolerated/condoned by the majority.


while he says it's not a minority it is BY DEFINITION a minority as there it is, i believe, rather unlikely that the majority of black people between the ages of 18 and 35 even in south london go to clubs


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 28, 2014)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> OK, head above the parapet time.
> 
> I, along with several other engineers I know, will now no longer crew any D&B/R&B/Urban type music event. It's just not worth the hassle. The level of trouble, intimidation and general unpleasantness that inevitably happens isn't worth it.
> 
> The thing is though, here in Birmingham at least, the racial background of those involved has nothing to do with it. The events have just as big a mix of people as any other. But there is clearly something about those scenes that has built up a particular style/attitude and attracts utter cunts. They may be a minority of the people there, but they're significant enough to bring the whole event down.



Its always gone on though. I remember stories about MC Moose (iirc?) getting pistol whipped at a jungle event at the institute in brum back in the mid 90s.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 28, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Its always gone on though. I remember stories about MC Moose (iirc?) getting pistol whipped at a jungle event at the institute in brum back in the mid 90s.



And before that Ragga nights had a reputation for violence.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 28, 2014)

_What I want to know is what are the White community gonna do about the bad behaviour and violence that besets our town centres every weekend at pubs/clubs and on the streets?_


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 28, 2014)

Belushi said:


> And before that Ragga nights had a reputation for violence.



In Birmingham I've seen shit at events from people of all colours. Worst one I can recall is mates of mine DJing at a bar and copping the flak for a protection dispute involving the Zulus (Birmingham City hooligan firm). DJs got attacked and one got his jaw broke despite having nothing to do with the dispute.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 28, 2014)

I hated nightclubs as a teenager, only really started going when I moved to London and discovered Techno. In my (overwhelmingly white) hometown it was just all about how much beer people could drink before getting in to a ruck.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> _What I want to know is what are the White community gonna do about the bad behaviour and violence that besets our town centres every weekend at pubs/clubs and on the streets?_


"the white community" - exists no more than "the black community".


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

i see the standard's picked up on it http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...violence-in-racist-facebook-rant-9159902.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> "the white community" - exists no more than "the black community".



No shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> No shit.


it's always good to see you advance the debate. as you'll have noticed i pointed out above the heterogenity of the black population, so it was a disappointment to see you declare the white population homogenous.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's always good to see you advance the debate. as you'll have noticed i pointed out above the heterogenity of the black population, so it was a disappointment to see you declare the white population homogenous.



Always good to see you attacking when you quite obviously missed the sarcasim of my post.  I'll go back to ignoring you I think as you just can't stop yourself from lashing out.


----------



## newbie (Feb 28, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> _What I want to know is what are the White community gonna do about the bad behaviour and violence that besets our town centres every weekend at pubs/clubs and on the streets?_


that's not quite what s/he has said though.  One of their followups is 






			
				Fridge Bar Brixton said:
			
		

> You are right though. There needs to be proactive community participation with the youngsters. Something has seriously gone wrong and without wishing to point fingers I believe absolutely that the destruction of the family unit is the root cause. When families are strong the community is strong. when families are weak (as they are now) then the community becomes fractured.



which places the emphasis rather differently. 

Is that a controversial view?  it's certainly one I've been hearing for many years now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Always good to see you attacking when you quite obviously missed the sarcasim of my post.  I'll go back to ignoring you I think as you just can't stop yourself from lashing out.


i wasn't lashing out. i thought you might be being sarcastic but then i thought that you probably were daft enough to mean what you say.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i wasn't lashing out. i thought you might be being sarcastic but then i thought that you probably were daft enough to mean what you say.



There you go again. Fuck off pickman's, really.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> There you go again. Fuck off pickman's, really.


yeh well that was having a pop at you. but as is well known when you are reduced the swearing you've conceded the argument. on your way now.


----------



## classicdish (Feb 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, tarring them all as i said


He isn't tarring himself or his friends, so not 'all'. Maybe if someone knows nothing about the Fridge Bar / the guy in question / the nights he is talking about it comes across like that. If you look at some of the older posts on the facebook page you'll see some more clues /comments about different types of music nights 

...for example _"Everyone knows that the Deep House scene is where it's at right now but I discovered something last night at PERSONA, which is a funky house event. There were ZERO troublemakers! Here's why......the troublemakers never liked the music in the beginning and they migrated to events like Circo Loco causing horrendous problems. Clubs, a couple years stopped booking funky house events because of the perception of trouble. Well we are now booking those events because the bastards have gone, the music is happy & my stress levels are down. Sun 29th sees PERSONA back at Fridge downstairs with HRH Scholar T & guests. Upstairs sees Petite Deejay & guests. Come see what the fuss is about. Partying without the bullshit! Happy Xmas!"_ Dec 23rd 2013


----------



## Sirena (Feb 28, 2014)

It is curious, though, that every day and every night on the telly, we watch programmes about drunken white kids in Lincoln or York or wherever, kicking off and causing mayhem all over the town centre.   I may be wrong but I don't really recall ever seeing black kids' faces in those programmes.

But when black kids do it, it's worthy of comment....


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

classicdish said:


> He isn't tarring himself or his friends, so not 'all'.


i bow to an uberpedant


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

Sirena said:


> It is curious, though, that every day and every night on the telly, we watch programmes about drunken white kids in Lincoln or York or wherever, kicking off and causing mayhem all over the town centre.   I may be wrong but I don't really recall ever seeing black kids' faces in those programmes.
> 
> But when black kids do it, it's worthy of comment....


we're not talking about people kicking off in town centres but poor behaviour in clubs leading to their closure.


----------



## classicdish (Feb 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i bow to an uberpedant


You don't actually care what the guy is trying to communicate? You don't care about any kind of context?


----------



## classicdish (Feb 28, 2014)

Sirena said:


> It is curious, though, that every day and every night on the telly, we watch programmes about drunken white kids in Lincoln or York or wherever, kicking off and causing mayhem all over the town centre.   I may be wrong but I don't really recall ever seeing black kids' faces in those programmes.
> 
> But when black kids do it, it's worthy of comment....


Just wait until they start making TV programmes about it then!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

classicdish said:


> You don't actually care what the guy is trying to communicate? You don't care about any kind of context?





> Unless and until young black people (18-35) learn to conduct themselves in a civil manner then the night time economy will be closed or severely restricted to you.


no 'except me or my mates' there.


----------



## prunus (Feb 28, 2014)

Isn't it 'Fridge Bar blames violent people (many of whom are black) for club closures'?  

May sound pedantic but I think it's an important distinction.


----------



## DRINK? (Feb 28, 2014)

prob more to do with lack of decent pills


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

prunus said:


> Isn't it 'Fridge Bar blames violent people (many of whom are black) for club closures'?
> 
> May sound pedantic but I think it's an important distinction.


it sounds to me like all the people they're blaming are black.


----------



## prunus (Feb 28, 2014)

Ok 'all of whom are black' if you prefer - the point is that it's the violence attribute not the blackness attribute of the people that's to blame. 

This is exactly what racism is - the misapplication of one identifying characteristic as a proxy for another.


----------



## classicdish (Feb 28, 2014)

> Unless and until young black people (18-35) learn to conduct themselves in a civil manner then the night time economy will be closed or severely restricted to you.





Pickman's model said:


> no 'except me or my mates' there.


Seems like he is just saying what the end result will be rather than making a blanket statement about *his* opinion about *all* black people.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 28, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Its always gone on though. I remember stories about MC Moose (iirc?) getting pistol whipped at a jungle event at the institute in brum back in the mid 90s.


It's always gone on yeah, but for me there's been a marked shift in the overall atmosphere at certain events in recent years. There's more aggression, a greater sense of the potential for minor events to escalate. And some of the stories I've heard from the security crews are horrendous.

Whether this is in part to me getting older/noticing it more though I don't know.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

classicdish said:


> Seems like he is just saying what the end result will be rather than making a blanket statement about *his* opinion about *all* black people.


are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely not understand what "until' means?


----------



## classicdish (Feb 28, 2014)

Do you understand what "unless" means?


----------



## Sirena (Feb 28, 2014)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It's always gone on yeah, but for me there's been a marked shift in the overall atmosphere at certain events in recent years. There's more aggression, a greater sense of the potential for minor events to escalate. And some of the stories I've heard from the security crews are horrendous.
> 
> Whether this is in part to me getting older/noticing it more though I don't know.


What do you think is behind it?  Is it post-code rivalry?  Is it the music?  Is it macho posturing? I find it hard to believe it is just drunkenness.


----------



## classicdish (Feb 28, 2014)

@Pickman's model

...and do you have any kind of point you are trying to make or are you just trying to annoy people?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 28, 2014)

classicdish said:


> @Pickman's model
> 
> ...and do you have any kind of point you are trying to make or are you just trying to annoy people?


 
The latter. As usual.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 28, 2014)

Sirena said:


> What do you think is behind it?  Is it post-code rivalry?  Is it the music?  Is it macho posturing? I find it hard to believe it is just drunkenness.


I think it's the end result of an ongoing and extremely complicated social/political situation.


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 28, 2014)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It's always gone on yeah, but for me there's been a marked shift in the overall atmosphere at certain events in recent years. There's more aggression, a greater sense of the potential for minor events to escalate. And some of the stories I've heard from the security crews are horrendous.
> 
> Whether this is in part to me getting older/noticing it more though I don't know.



Hmmmm, maybe, I don't go out much these days, although I've been to a couple of dubstep nights at the Hare and Hounds which have been fine.

Mad stuff went on right from the beginning of rave though, see Wayne Anthony's (Sunrise* promoter and ex urban poster) book Class of '88. Doors run by gangs etc, look at what happened to the Hacienda.

*sorry, Genesis, not Sunrise


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 28, 2014)

Just that back then, many punters were too loved up to notice.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 28, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> Just that back then, many punters were too loved up to notice.


I think that's the difference though - back then a lot (most?) of the aggro was behind the scenes. Dodgy promoters, payoffs, protection rackets, gangsters and all that. All par for the course when you have large amounts of money changing hands for activities of a questionable legal standing 

What I've been seeing as a tech over the last few years though is a change in the atmosphere on the dancefloors and in the queues.


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 28, 2014)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I think that's the difference though - back then a lot (most?) of the aggro was behind the scenes. Dodgy promoters, payoffs, protection rackets, gangsters and all that. All par for the course when you have large amounts of money changing hands for activities of a questionable legal standing
> 
> What I've been seeing as a tech over the last few years though is a change in the atmosphere on the dancefloors and in the queues.


Again, yeah maybe. Although I remember Pecker's place in Balsall Heath (Community Vision? By Abdullahs Carpets) being a bit hairy on occasion, this was over 10 years ago.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 28, 2014)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I think that's the difference though - back then a lot (most?) of the aggro was behind the scenes. Dodgy promoters, payoffs, protection rackets, gangsters and all that. All par for the course when you have large amounts of money changing hands for activities of a questionable legal standing
> 
> What I've been seeing as a tech over the last few years though is a change in the atmosphere on the dancefloors and in the queues.


is this maybe because some of the type of events you've mentioned were stopped for a few years and now a new generation is maybe doing them and when the events and monies get big then problems start


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

classicdish said:


> Do you understand what "unless" means?


so you're thick as pigshit. it's talking about the here and now not some potential dystopian future.


----------



## classicdish (Feb 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's talking about the here and now not some potential dystopian future.


Let me re-phrase then: 
"Seems like he is just saying what the result has been rather than making a blanket statement about *his* opinion about *all* black people."


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 28, 2014)

editor said:


> I'm not necessarily endorsing everything that's been written, but I categorically know of two local clubs who have stopped doing nights for the reasons listed in that post because they feared they'd lose their licence. One of the clubs is black-run. I think I might know the club that has 'secretly' been put up for sale too.



Honest question: what's the anecdotal/empirical evidence on whites ever causing trouble or fighting?


----------



## ddraig (Feb 28, 2014)

loads
up and down the uk every weekend


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Honest question: what's the anecdotal/empirical evidence on whites ever causing trouble or fighting?


I think the issue here is that _certain sorts of nights_ are creating such trouble for the clubs that they face being closed down.

Off the top of my head I can think of two recent examples in Brixton where the venue has been closed down, and personally know of a third venue that has stopped doing such nights for fear of losing their licence.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 28, 2014)

"I spoke to the owner yesterday of one of Brixtons best known venues that has had serious problems since Xmas and he has now secretly put the place up for sale."

anyone know what that refers to?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 28, 2014)

Don't the clubs in UK employ bouncers?

First off, not much worry about handguns on club-goers over there. Maybe people might be carrying knives.

There were certain clubs here that were known for trouble. They installed metal detectors, and hired a lot of really big, mean bouncers. The metal detectors meant that no weapons of any type were getting in. The big mean bouncers meant that within a couple of seconds of trouble starting, the perps were out on their asses. They also do this thing where one must show a driver's licence or other govt ID to get into a club. It's recorded, so they have a record to give to police if things go sideways.

There are ways to deal with club violence, no matter what color the perpetrators happen to be. The fact that these clubs claim they have to close because of unruly blacks wrecking everything, reeks of bullshit.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 28, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> First off, not much worry about handguns on club-goers over there. Maybe people might be carrying knives.



You'd be surprised. Firearms are strictly controlled but we do have shootings.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

classicdish said:


> @Pickman's model
> 
> ...and do you have any kind of point you are trying to make or are you just trying to annoy people?


i could ask you the same when half the exchange we've had is you telling me i'm wrong. but here's the thing: i was right and you were wrong and you've a fuck of a lot of nerve asking if i'm trying to annoy people when you've been posting muddleheaded cackhanded wank.


----------



## xenon (Feb 28, 2014)

It's not about black peple is it. I'ts about a particular sub genre of music attracting wannabe ganster antisocial aggressive bullshit. Not new either. See KRS1 talking about the violence spoiling hiphiop shows in the late 80's / early 90's.


----------



## xenon (Feb 28, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Honest question: what's the anecdotal/empirical evidence on whites ever causing trouble or fighting?



Football violence of the 70's. Predmoninatly carried out by white people. Again, a sub culture.


----------



## classicdish (Feb 28, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> ...reeks of bullshit...


why do you think the guy said it?


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2014)

ska invita said:


> "I spoke to the owner yesterday of one of Brixtons best known venues that has had serious problems since Xmas and he has now secretly put the place up for sale."
> 
> anyone know what that refers to?


I think I do but I don't think it would be prudent to post up the details, sorry.


----------



## Paulie (Feb 28, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Don't the clubs in UK employ bouncers?
> 
> First off, not much worry about handguns on club-goers over there. Maybe people might be carrying knives.
> 
> ...


Sadly this gun bullshit does happen in London...  

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-01-11/two-due-in-court-over-boxing-day-club-shooting-in-london/

being the most recent.  Some cunts just don't know how to have a good time.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 28, 2014)

Comment is free article about Just Jam barbican event being cancelled
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/27/just-jam-grime-ban-police-prejudice-barbican


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

ddraig said:


> Comment is free article about Just Jam barbican event being cancelled
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/27/just-jam-grime-ban-police-prejudice-barbican


nice of the city police to demonstrate that any belief they were not institutionally racist was unfounded.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 28, 2014)

Can I just point out we have none of this nonsense at Fishco. It's all love.


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 28, 2014)

ddraig said:


> Comment is free article about Just Jam barbican event being cancelled
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/27/just-jam-grime-ban-police-prejudice-barbican



Some idiot on that thread trying to defend Death in June.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 28, 2014)

Loads of tossers liking shit banal comments about 'loud noise' too!


----------



## Manter (Feb 28, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Don't the clubs in UK employ bouncers?
> 
> First off, not much worry about handguns on club-goers over there. Maybe people might be carrying knives.
> 
> ...


We do have bouncers etc but if you read the whole statement he addresses why they aren't a magic solution


----------



## Corax (Feb 28, 2014)

Is the Fridge poster not a vile cunt, or am I missing something?


----------



## moon (Feb 28, 2014)

I remember Brixton when the Fridge would host a mainly afro-Caribbean 'Soul II Soul' hip-hop night, the gay night 'Love Muscle' and the new age night 'Return to the Source'!

*And everyone mostly got on!*

What has happened to Brixton??


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2014)

Corax said:


> Is the Fridge poster not a vile cunt, or am I missing something?


Read the comments on the facebook page and see what you think.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 28, 2014)

moon said:


> I remember Brixton when the Fridge would host a mainly afro-Caribbean 'Soul II Soul' hip-hop night, the gay night 'Love Muscle' and the new age night 'Return to the Source'!
> 
> And everyone mostly got on!
> 
> *What has happened to Brixton??*



That's the big question.
I could just say it's unbridled capitalism and it would be true although not just Tory types would dispute that. The Brixton of the past has gone, remnants echo but even they eventually fade to silence. The present and the future, it's harsh and people get shaped by it. Some might say that was true in the '80s and they would be correct but it's different now, the intensity has been ramped.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 28, 2014)

moon said:


> I remember Brixton when the Fridge would host a mainly afro-Caribbean 'Soul II Soul' hip-hop night, the gay night 'Love Muscle' and the new age night 'Return to the Source'!
> 
> *And everyone mostly got on!*
> 
> What has happened to Brixton??


This is the Fridge *Bar* - a different thing - but point taken. I feel like I have noticed a growing colour apartheid in clubbing audiences, in comparison to what it was like in the 90s. Disappointing and bizarre even, on many levels, but it also makes racially profiling troublemakers more easy for the likes of the Brixton Bar man.


----------



## Corax (Feb 28, 2014)

editor said:


> Read the comments on the facebook page and see what you think.


I don't have a login - what's the jist?


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2014)

Corax said:


> I don't have a login - what's the jist?


It's not as straightforward as you might think, with the piece garnering almost universal support from many black commentators.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 28, 2014)

editor said:


> It's not as straightforward as you might think, with the piece garnering almost universal support from many black commentators.


which doesn't de facto stop it from being racist


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2014)

ska invita said:


> which doesn't de facto stop it from being racist


Good job I didn't say that, then!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

editor said:


> It's not as straightforward as you might think, with the piece garnering almost universal support from many black commentators.


i'm sorry, do you mean that almost all the black people commenting on the post are 100% behind it or do you mean that many of the black people commenting on the post have given it almost unqualified support?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 28, 2014)

editor said:


> Good job I didn't say that, then!


and a good job i didnt say you did


----------



## classicdish (Feb 28, 2014)

New post on facebook:

"A few days we put up a post highlighting the disproportionate incidences of trouble occurring in S London nightclubs and the fact that many have closed as a result. We deliberately & truthfully inserted our opinion backed by both anecdotal and empirical evidence that some black males and increasingly some black women are at the forefront of this. The media have quite mischievously and a tad maliciously tried to smear us. Clearly the fact that Fridge Bar is owned by a black woman has passed them by. Unbelievable and that is why we never speak to the media."

https://www.facebook.com/lateralthink?hc_location=timeline


----------



## ska invita (Feb 28, 2014)

Im really not sure how different things are now to before - if anything London seems a lot less violent than it used to me - not sure what the stats say, not that you cant trust them. All kinds of crazy stories from raving in the 80s and 90s too...
Last violence i saw was at a squat party with 3 violent robberies carried out (by white people against other white people)


----------



## newbie (Feb 28, 2014)

Corax said:


> I don't have a login - what's the jist?


nor do I and I can read it
https://www.facebook.com/lateralthink/posts/10151680689167465


----------



## Corax (Feb 28, 2014)

editor said:


> It's not as straightforward as you might think, with the piece garnering almost universal support from many black commentators.


Intriguing - but whatever the realities of the situation itself, I'd struggle to imagine a context in which the Fridge post *itself* wasn't racist cuntery.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 28, 2014)

Ok, I'm going to defend what he's saying, to a point at least.

What he's saying in short is that there is a real issue with violence in a lot of the clubs in South London, and he's advocating a community response. Community here being the people who go the clubs hes talking about, who are largely black, but not 'the black community' outside of that context necessarily. Fwiw the idea that partygoers have something of a collective responsibility to police the party is hardly new. I remember plenty of similar discussions about muggings at squat parties.

The point of mentioning that the perpetrators are often black appears to be that he thinks racist authorities are used as an excuse for licensing issues etc. when his experience is that they're good.

So it's not surprising he's not talking about white people fighting in Lincoln - it's not relevant. He's not really making a point about crime outside the clubbing context or in the wider black community which some people seem to be interpreting this as. It's not really addressed to any wider issues at all (Tbf he does very slightly in the additional comments.)

I'm not saying I agree with everything he's saying but some here seem to be outraged by stuff he hasn't really said imo.


----------



## shygirl (Feb 28, 2014)

This discourse has been taking place within the black community for years, but it is seldom put out to the world in the way that the Fridge bar has done. I don't agree that highlighting what seems to be an issue in any community is necessarily racist.  Sometimes, it takes courage to name things that are deeply uncomfortable and that can be easily misconstrued.


----------



## Corax (Feb 28, 2014)

newbie said:


> nor do I and I can read it
> https://www.facebook.com/lateralthink/posts/10151680689167465


You on desktop? On tablet I'm just getting a login screen.


----------



## Paulie (Feb 28, 2014)

moon said:


> I remember Brixton when the Fridge would host a mainly afro-Caribbean 'Soul II Soul' hip-hop night, the gay night 'Love Muscle' and the new age night 'Return to the Source'!
> 
> *And everyone mostly got on!*
> 
> What has happened to Brixton??


I worked at the Fridge in '89 which sounds like the period you describe.  There wasn't any gun madness but it wasn't all peace and love.  The bouncers were entirely unaccountable to the management and were the most violent people in the place.  Some nasty kickings in the Buckner Rd fire exits and some very vocal homophobia; "We should have rubber gloves to work with you AIDS queers..."  Not sure quite how they endured Love Muscle.

The main nights were pretty peaceable but some of the ever-changing mid-week nights could attract a pretty aggressive crowd - I had a few slaps and a lot of aggro just for collecting glasses but nothing more serious so actually perhaps everyone did get along compared to whatever perturbs the Fridge Bar these days.  I wonder if the move from having genuinely nasty bouncers to licensed door professionals who can't give you a kicking in the fire exit has enabled the crowd to fuck about more?  Neither's a desirable situation, of course.


----------



## newbie (Feb 28, 2014)

this is a windows pc, but I've just used my phone and get the login page.  sorry about that


----------



## classicdish (Feb 28, 2014)

The Huffington Post headline: 
"Fridge Bar, Brixton, Posts Racist Message Blaming Black People For South London Violence"
and opens with:
"A famous South London nightspot has blamed violence in the capital on black people..."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/02/28/fridge-bar-brixton_n_4872997.html


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2014)

classicdish said:


> The Huffington Post headline:
> "Fridge Bar, Brixton, Posts Racist Message Blaming Black People For South London Violence"
> and opens with:
> "A famous South London nightspot has blamed violence in the capital on black people..."
> ...


The UK version of the Huffington Post has been sliding deep down into tacky tabloid drivel for ages now. 

As is often the case, some of the reader the comments are more informed. 



> Let's set some facts straight
> 
> 1. The owners of Fridge bar are black. Most of the staff, event organisers, security team and fund-providers, are black
> 2. People calling this racist didn't read the original post - it clearly distinguishes between black people who are out to have a good time, and those who are out to cause trouble (i.e. not all black people do this)
> ...


----------



## oryx (Feb 28, 2014)

ska invita said:


> This is the Fridge *Bar* - a different thing - but point taken. I feel like I have noticed a growing colour apartheid in clubbing audiences, in comparison to what it was like in the 90s. Disappointing and bizarre even, on many levels, but it also makes racially profiling troublemakers more easy for the likes of the Brixton Bar man.



I used to go to the Fridge Bar in the mid-90s and yes, it was very mixed and friendly - used to love it, especially it you got a seat outside!

I have thinking about this thread - while the original piece is about south London, violence in the so-called 'night-time economy' is a real problem. Whoever made the comment about places like Lincoln & York - certainly in York (my home town) you are always reading about fights, injuries etc.


----------



## cuppa tee (Feb 28, 2014)

oryx said:


> I used to go to the Fridge Bar in the mid-90s and yes, it was very mixed and friendly - used to love it, especially it you got a seat outside!
> 
> I have thinking about this thread - while the original piece is about south London, violence in the so-called 'night-time economy' is a real problem. Whoever made the comment about places like Lincoln & York - certainly in York (my home town) you are always reading about fights, injuries etc.


york is my home town too, getting roughed up was a regular thing on a Friday or Saturday night if you didn't or couldn't get a cab to your front door.


----------



## Manter (Feb 28, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> york is my home town too, getting roughed up was a regular thing on a Friday or Saturday night if you didn't or couldn't get a cab to your front door.


I always thought it was quite twee and chocolate-boxy and was a but startled to be wandering down a street late one Saturday evening and suddenly see everywhere sprout strapping great bouncers.


----------



## Winot (Feb 28, 2014)

oryx said:


> I used to go to the Fridge Bar in the mid-90s and yes, it was very mixed and friendly - used to love it, especially it you got a seat outside!



I once went there with an academic friend who was wearing combat shorts with a copy of the Times Literary Supplement stuffed in the pocket. People were friendly but bemused.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 28, 2014)

Manter said:


> We do have bouncers etc but if you read the whole statement he addresses why they aren't a magic solution



The problem of violent customers in bars/nightclubs is an old one, and a common one. If it raises its head at popular venues, they find ways to deal with it. Why? Because popular bars/nightclubs are very lucrative.  If the problem of violence occurs, the owners of these places find ways to deal with it.

In the Eighties and early Nineties, there were a couple of bars here frequented by US servicemen from the bases close to the border. Back then, border security was lax, and it wasn't uncommon for some of the patrons to be carrying handguns. Similarly, in more recent years at different clubs, problems arose as a result of armed drug gang members. There were shootings on the dance floor etc.

The clubs didn't close. They did what I said earlier: they installed metal detectors at the door. They took govt. ID so that there was a name record of patrons - and the patrons knew it.

And along with those measures - they hired more bouncers. Instead of maybe two or three, they'd have 12. There would be five at the door alone. From local experience, it would seem that there is no end of superfit and aggressive karate instructors, police hopefuls, or just wannabee badasses who like the idea of being a bouncer. There are people out there who like the idea of fights.

In any event, these measures reduced the violence, and the clubs didn't have to close. I can't see why something similar wouldn't work over there. To repeat: the article reads like racist bullshit. I suspect that a look behind the scenes would reveal that venues which are closing have other reasons for doing so.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 28, 2014)

editor said:


> It's not as straightforward as you might think, with the piece garnering almost universal support from many black commentators.



From people who apparently say that they're black.

Seems a bit naive to read a comment that says 'I'm black and I agree re: black troublemakers', and accept it at face value.


----------



## classicdish (Feb 28, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> the article reads like racist bullshit.


Out of interest, have you had a look at their facebook page? And if so do you think this person is racist against black people? Why do you think they are writing "racist bullshit"?

(BTW all the measures you have mentioned are used in the UK alongside CCTV. It doesn't stop places either being shut down by the local authorities or deciding for themselves to shut down or stop putting on certain kinds of nights)


----------



## classicdish (Feb 28, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> From people who apparently say that they're black.
> 
> Seems a bit naive to read a comment that says 'I'm black and I agree re: black troublemakers', and accept it at face value.


None of the comments say that.

Have you actually looked at the facebook page & post in question?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 28, 2014)

classicdish said:


> Out of interest, have you had a look at their facebook page? And if so do you think this person is racist against black people? Why do you think they are writing "racist bullshit"?



No. I don't want to log into facebook to look at this. I did search it out and read the full text elsewhere.

Why are some people racist, and write racist things, or do racist things? Fucked if I know.


----------



## Corax (Feb 28, 2014)

editor said:


> The UK version of the Huffington Post has been sliding deep down into tacky tabloid drivel for ages now.
> 
> As is often the case, some of the reader the comments are more informed.


Re number 2 of the comment you quoted: I'm not clear what purpose mentioning their colour serves in the first place in that case. Why is it relevant? If it's not about 'black people' but about a particular social group that happen to be black, then shouldn't the focus be on what *distinguishes* that group?


----------



## bosie (Feb 28, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> From people who apparently say that they're black.
> 
> Seems a bit naive to read a comment that says 'I'm black and I agree re: black troublemakers', and accept it at face value.



Unless people have gone to the trouble of posting fake profile pictures on their Facebook account i'd say it's quite clear that the vast majority of comments are from black people.


----------



## cuppa tee (Feb 28, 2014)

Manter said:


> I always thought it was quite twee and chocolate-boxy and was a but startled to be wandering down a street late one Saturday evening and suddenly see everywhere sprout strapping great bouncers.


The town centre was an early starter in the gentrification shenanigans and  I could bore the pants off everyone with my experiences of recreational violence however that would be a diversion from the proper bizness of this thread apart from the fact the violence was 99% commited by young males against other young males.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 28, 2014)

Hmmm a quick google of the term Vancouver nightclub shooting tends to indicate that violence remains a bigger problem than JC3 is aware of.


----------



## peterkro (Feb 28, 2014)

Paulie said:


> I worked at the Fridge in '89 which sounds like the period you describe.  There wasn't any gun madness but it wasn't all peace and love.  The bouncers were entirely unaccountable to the management and were the most violent people in the place.  Some nasty kickings in the Buckner Rd fire exits and some very vocal homophobia; "We should have rubber gloves to work with you AIDS queers..."  Not sure quite how they endured Love Muscle.
> 
> The main nights were pretty peaceable but some of the ever-changing mid-week nights could attract a pretty aggressive crowd - I had a few slaps and a lot of aggro just for collecting glasses but nothing more serious so actually perhaps everyone did get along compared to whatever perturbs the Fridge Bar these days.  I wonder if the move from having genuinely nasty bouncers to licensed door professionals who can't give you a kicking in the fire exit has enabled the crowd to fuck about more?  Neither's a desirable situation, of course.


As was I  (day staff although I was in there most nights as well).It's true the security team did harbour quite a lot of homophobia although it generally didn't include actual violence.There wasn't any guns inside the club but I witnessed several instances of people being tossed out and coming back tooled up and security dealt with them pretty well.
The worst violence I saw was dished out to a crack dealer who tried to get into a under eighteen daytime event,everybody just looked the other way.
It was a time of some considerable violence surrounding club security teams (witness the huge fight between the Fridge and Academy teams,over who controlled which venues).
I'm a bit in two minds about this as they treated me well (although I'm not gay) and frankly without that sort of security I don't think the club would have survived as long as it did.
I'm also aware of the drug dealing and crime links but to me they were doing a difficult job fairly well.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 28, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> The problem of violent customers in bars/nightclubs is an old one, and a common one. If it raises its head at popular venues, they find ways to deal with it. Why? Because popular bars/nightclubs are very lucrative.  If the problem of violence occurs, the owners of these places find ways to deal with it.
> 
> In the Eighties and early Nineties, there were a couple of bars here frequented by US servicemen from the bases close to the border. Back then, border security was lax, and it wasn't uncommon for some of the patrons to be carrying handguns. Similarly, in more recent years at different clubs, problems arose as a result of armed drug gang members. There were shootings on the dance floor etc.
> 
> ...


Johnny, it is not like that is not realised over here
i went to a club in Peckham London in the early 90's and they had full on metal detector arches and hand held devices as well as teams of security that would sweep the venue in a military fashion!


----------



## Paulie (Feb 28, 2014)

peterkro said:


> As was I  (day staff although I was in there most nights as well).It's true the security team did harbour quite a lot of homophobia although it generally didn't include actual violence.There wasn't any guns inside the club but I witnessed several instances of people being tossed out and coming back tooled up and security dealt with them pretty well.
> The worst violence I saw was dished out to a crack dealer who tried to get into a under eighteen daytime event,everybody just looked the other way.
> It was a time of some considerable violence surrounding club security teams (witness the huge fight between the Fridge and Academy teams,over who controlled which venues).
> I'm a bit in two minds about this as they treated me well (although I'm not gay) and frankly without that sort of security I don't think the club would have survived as long as it did.
> I'm also aware of the drug dealing and crime links but to me they were doing a difficult job fairly well.


I probably haven't been terribly clear - the homophobia was directed at the staff (but not the pink pounds we all took home) and the kickings at certain punters though I couldn't say what they might have done to deserve it.  I'm not gay but asked them why they took money from those queers they despised so didn't get on with them at all.

I agree they did maintain a pretty good peace in some difficult situations but only by getting away with a lot more in that unlicensed era.  If you could bring back that kind of security would clubs have less trouble?  Would we want that?  I'm a bit torn if better-behaved bouncers ultimately means a club has to close.

(Should your shifty emoticon be doubting my veracity... what can I say?  I did a shit job for 5 months nearly 25 years ago.  Still have my tag.)


----------



## peterkro (Feb 28, 2014)

Paulie said:


> (Should your shifty emoticon be doubting my veracity... what can I say?  I did a shit job for 5 months nearly 25 years ago.  Still have my tag.)View attachment 49337


Not at all,it just meant you probably knew me by sight and me you.


----------



## BessieSmith (Mar 1, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Just read that, nothing about socio economics, changing demographic. Not really qualified to comment on the club scene but it strikes me as bitter bullshit of the worst kind.
> Marginalise a group of people, divide them again, turn them on themselves. The surprise is that people are so easily led.


Your so right.


Dexter Deadwood said:


> Just read that, nothing about socio economics, changing demographic. Not really qualified to comment on the club scene but it strikes me as bitter bullshit of the worst kind.
> Marginalise a group of people, divide them again, turn them on themselves. The surprise is that people are so easily led.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Mar 1, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Hmmm a quick google of the term Vancouver nightclub shooting tends to indicate that violence remains a bigger problem than JC3 is aware of.



Did your search provide a 20 year history of what the problem has been like in the past?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Mar 1, 2014)

Corax said:


> Re number 2 of the comment you quoted: I'm not clear what purpose mentioning their colour serves in the first place in that case. Why is it relevant? If it's not about 'black people' but about a particular social group that happen to be black, then shouldn't the focus be on what *distinguishes* that group?




If the area/s that the clubs are in is/are predominantly black, then the story is something akin to a story like 'Club Violence in South Chicago is Carried Out By Blacks'

or

'Budapest Club Violence Caused by Hungarians'.

ie trite to the point of stupidity.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Mar 1, 2014)

The working class always get turned upon themselves by those elites promoting class warfare (they call it something else) and we see it for what it is. Why is this any different? Promoters, owners abdicating responsibility to maintain a safe environment for punters to splash their cash and then blaming those punters for not picking up the slack of the owners whip. It's so wrong.


----------



## Tankus (Mar 1, 2014)

Its made it to the wail ..... Unclean unclean.....


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Mar 1, 2014)

The answer is simple. Increase immigration. Move them into every village. Then, in about 100 years, the white Briton will have disappeared, and this discussion will be moot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2014)

out of curiosity have any of the closed clubs been swiftly turned into flats?


----------



## classicdish (Mar 1, 2014)

...and here's The Guardian's article: 

*The Fridge bar race row is an insult to clubbers – of all colours*
...Young black music fans have enough problems from the police, without clubs such as Brixton's Fridge making things worse

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...r-race-clubbers-young-black-music-fans-police


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 1, 2014)

The DM getting a semi over this...... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lighting-nightclub-industry-black-people.html


----------



## ska invita (Mar 1, 2014)

When I think of violence at the Fridge Bar its not the public I think of....


Fridge Bar Brixton -CCTV captures brutal beating. Fridge co-owner Ralph Daley, 46, was seen on film smashing the victim four times with a heavy metal bar which bent on impact with the victim's body. Meanwhile, bouncer Frederick Mallefroy, 45, was captured holding the man down and savagely beating him as club cashier Victor Reid, 42, stamped on the victim's head during the attack in November 2006.


----------



## Tolpuddle (Mar 1, 2014)

ska invita said:


> When I think of violence at the Fridge Bar its not the public I think of....
> 
> 
> Fridge Bar Brixton -CCTV captures brutal beating. Fridge co-owner Ralph Daley, 46, was seen on film smashing the victim four times with a heavy metal bar which bent on impact with the victim's body. Meanwhile, bouncer Frederick Mallefroy, 45, was captured holding the man down and savagely beating him as club cashier Victor Reid, 42, stamped on the victim's head during the attack in November 2006.




wonder if the OP is one of the above?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 1, 2014)

Tolpuddle said:


> wonder if the OP is one of the above?


I seem to remember the venue has changed owners since then, but perhaps someone more local will know better


----------



## Manter (Mar 1, 2014)

classicdish said:


> ...and here's The Guardian's article:
> 
> *The Fridge bar race row is an insult to clubbers – of all colours*
> ...Young black music fans have enough problems from the police, without clubs such as Brixton's Fridge making things worse
> ...


Some of the commenters on that article seem petrified of Brixton....


----------



## CH1 (Mar 1, 2014)

Manter said:


> Some of the commenters on that article seem petrified of Brixton....


Quite - and I don't think the Brixton Bar and Grill is a patch on the Centennial Hill Bar & Grill, Montgomery:

"Effective immediately, the City of Montgomery has taken action to close the Centennial Hill Bar and Grill on Highland Avenue, which operated previously as the Rose Supper Club. We do not take this action lightly, but believe this decision is compelled by clear evidence that continued operation of this establishment poses an imminent threat to the public's safety," according to the statement.

"Just this morning a 21-year-old young woman and a 22-year-old young man were shot and killed there, and six other young adults were shot and wounded. The shootings occurred despite the presence of the club's security and repeated cautions from the City," Strange said.


----------



## classicdish (Mar 1, 2014)

Tolpuddle said:


> wonder if the OP is one of the above?


The previous owners had their licence revoked back in 2008: http://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.aspx?ID=935


----------



## Tolpuddle (Mar 1, 2014)

classicdish said:


> The previous owners had their licence revoked back in 2008: http://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.aspx?ID=935


 I think they appealed and got it back at court.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 1, 2014)

ska invita said:


> When I think of violence at the Fridge Bar its not the public I think of....
> 
> 
> Fridge Bar Brixton -CCTV captures brutal beating. Fridge co-owner Ralph Daley, 46, was seen on film smashing the victim four times with a heavy metal bar which bent on impact with the victim's body. Meanwhile, bouncer Frederick Mallefroy, 45, was captured holding the man down and savagely beating him as club cashier Victor Reid, 42, stamped on the victim's head during the attack in November 2006.



I see that there was a thread about this at the time, in which poster Leon alludes to extenuating circumstances of some kind.

Certainly, taken in isolation it looks like an horrific beating. But common sense also tells us that what is captured in under 90 seconds of a video on the _Sun_ website is not likely to be the whole story.

Whether justified or not, _something_ must have precipitated such a beating. After all, the Fridge Bar staff are captured _on their own CCTV_ tooling up; if this kind of behaviour is routine for them, one would clearly expect them to stash weapons elsewhere. And if the staff of a nightclub in a busy area of south London really wished to dish out a completely unprovoked, undeserved beating to someone for no other reason than that they are Brutal Thugs With No Respect For Human Life, Meathead Bouncers, or whatever, then surely common sense tells us that they would generally not do this in the middle of a busy road close to the front door of said same nightclub in a busy area of south London?

After all, do not Brutal Thugs With No Respect For Human Life tend to do this sort of thing fairly regularly - hence the _No Respect For Human Life_ - ? Were the three convicted for their involvement in the beating up to that point merely _apprentice_ Brutal Thugs? Did they  just happen to collectively cross over the Respect For Human Life threshold at the exact same moment, when each was into their forties, for some unknowable reason?

Or was there - perhaps - some (possibly extreme) provocation that drew these men into this incident, ending as it did (rightly or wrongly) with the brutal twelve-second assault we see captured in the middle of a 1m24s edited video clip?

This video and this text appear to provide additional context relating to the lead-up to and claimed reasons behind the beating which - whilst hardly excusing brutality - certainly lend themselves to a fuller understanding of what happened.


----------



## superfly101 (Mar 1, 2014)

Manter said:


> Some of the commenters on that article seem petrified of Brixton....


It's all them Portuguese cake shops. Once you've had a Portuguese egg custard tart you will not be liking Mrs Miggins pie shops efforts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2014)

superfly101 said:


> It's all them Portuguese cake shops. Once you've had a Portuguese egg custard tart you will not be liking Mrs Miggins pie shops efforts.


is this true Mrs Miggins?


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 1, 2014)

See post below. First go did not work.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 1, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> , then surely common sense tells us that they would generally not do this in the middle of a busy road close to the front door of said same nightclub in a busy area of south London?



They did not show commonsense.

Here is local Croydon news.




> "All of those convicted worked for the Fridge Bar and were supposed to be responsible for preventing disorder but instead they created it.



I live in central Brixton and this is not the kind of behaviour I want to see.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 1, 2014)

I appreciated the comment in the OP regarding security crews. The licensing of the door staff has kept out people who back in the day were able to exert control in a way that the DBS checked staff of today have no wish or ability to do.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 4, 2014)

TopCat said:


> I appreciated the comment in the OP regarding security crews. The licensing of the door staff has kept out people who back in the day were able to exert control in a way that the DBS checked staff of today have no wish or ability to do.


Thats interesting - so is what you're saying perhaps that theres always been violence, but in the past door staff were more than capable of giving as good as they got and then some, but tighter controls on door staff mean that they are less capable and willing to respond, and so aggravators are getting out of control?


----------



## ddraig (Mar 4, 2014)

and making a decent living on the side in an organised fashion


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 4, 2014)

ddraig said:


> Johnny, it is not like that is not realised over here
> i went to a club in Peckham London in the early 90's and they had full on metal detector arches and hand held devices as well as teams of security that would sweep the venue in a military fashion!



Laserdrome?


----------



## ddraig (Mar 4, 2014)

Yup
Innersense at the laaaaazerdrome


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 4, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I see that there was a thread about this at the time, in which poster Leon alludes to extenuating circumstances of some kind.
> 
> Certainly, taken in isolation it looks like an horrific beating. But common sense also tells us that what is captured in under 90 seconds of a video on the _Sun_ website is not likely to be the whole story.
> 
> ...




"whilst hardly excusing brutality" Hmmnnn....yeah right.

Although they are normally angels, I think the guy had been selling pills...which is definitely provocation for a sustained almost beaten to death type kicking.

We've all been there ourselves I'm sure....


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 4, 2014)

ddraig said:


> Yup
> Innersense at the laaaaazerdrome



They did have good reason to do this at the time though......it was fuckin rough!


----------



## ddraig (Mar 4, 2014)

Oh yeah! I remember being quite fucking scared a couple of times, stank of crack and shit kicking off in different areas! Couldn't tell whether it was another rewind or music stopped due to some extreme violence


----------



## Dan U (Mar 4, 2014)

ddraig said:


> Yup
> Innersense at the laaaaazerdrome



Those were the days. 

RIP my raving youth.


----------



## Dan U (Mar 4, 2014)

Have to say without wishing to derail too much further I stopped going to jungle raves at around that Lazerdrome time as it was just too out of hand and hardcore nights were too squeaky cheesey from late 93 on 

Ended up going to nights like strawberry sundae, stuff at club UK before they went tits and some other lower key more 4/4 events as couldn't deal with the bullshit.

I'd love a proper jungle rinse out now though.


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 4, 2014)

ddraig said:


> Oh yeah! I remember being quite fucking scared a couple of times, stank of crack and shit kicking off in different areas! Couldn't tell whether it was another rewind or music stopped due to some extreme violence



re re wind...oh fuck!


----------



## ska invita (Mar 4, 2014)

I think the last Innersense at Lazerdome was in 96 - £5 Payback (lol)...its all flats now of course

i never dared go btw - was way too much of a floppy haired space cadet in those days


----------



## ska invita (Mar 4, 2014)

alfajobrob said:


> "whilst hardly excusing brutality" Hmmnnn....yeah right.
> 
> Although they are normally angels, I think the guy had been selling pills...which is definitely provocation for a sustained almost beaten to death type kicking.
> 
> We've all been there ourselves I'm sure....


the fact he seems to have lived through this is pure luck - its a beating that most likely wouldve killed or at least seriously maimed


----------



## Dan U (Mar 4, 2014)

it seemed to be back then their were venues that had a tight door and ran (or allowed) certain individuals to 'operate' inside which were generally safe (once you were in, you were free to do what you wanted - we probably remember them well) and other places that just lost all control of all of that. i'd like to think the former still exist but i suspect more of the latter are operating these days due to licensing etc. the former weren't all 'white' either, just had a strong door crew.

if you know the former, pm me don't post on here


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 4, 2014)

Dan U said:


> if you know the former, pm me don't post on here



Fuck that. Post your experiences here*....


*as long as your not litigious, or even identifiable as liable for a beating etc.


----------



## Corax (Mar 4, 2014)

alfajobrob said:


> Fuck that. Post your experiences here*....
> 
> 
> *as long as your not litigious, or even identifiable as liable for a kicking etc.


As long as your not litigious what?


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 4, 2014)

Corax said:


> As long as your not litigious what?



I mean't http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/litigious

As in liable for lawsuit mentioning owners or people.


----------



## Dan U (Mar 4, 2014)

given the licensing difficulties lots of places seem to face i think not posting such current venues on a site like this is a good idea.

no offence to editor but i suspect he knows what i mean.

eta - just to back that up i know of a festival which is pretty popular on this website but which had posts from another forum thrown at them by the police as a reason for turning down their license, even though the organiser did not make a single post about any of it, it was just punters going 'lol last year i did bare k bruv' etc


----------



## Corax (Mar 4, 2014)

alfajobrob said:


> I mean't http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/litigious
> 
> As in liable for lawsuit mentioning owners or people.


I don't think you got what I mean't.

The irony of a dictionary link is just brilliant though 

I'm just messing with you though - it doesn't really matter


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 4, 2014)

Dan U said:


> given the licensing difficulties lots of places seem to face i think not posting such current venues on a site like this is a good idea.
> 
> no offence to editor but i suspect he knows what i mean.
> 
> eta - just to back that up i know of a festival which is pretty popular on this website but which had posts from another forum thrown at them by the police as a reason for turning down their license, even though the organiser did not make a single post about any of it, it was just punters going 'lol last year i did bare k bruv' etc





I'm going back years here.....what's wrong with mentioning I got turned over and beaten by bouncers at Turnmill's in the 90's.....

Some of the ugliest bouncers I saw were back at Dogstar about 10 years ago...are they gonna sue me for calling them cunts.

T's in Erith  had massively shit door staff as well as Flicks...well, what do you say now lads.

I'm not naming current venues/staff....but the above are welcome to sue me.


----------



## Dan U (Mar 4, 2014)

yeah, old venues are fine i reckon!


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 4, 2014)

Corax said:


> I don't think you got what I mean't.
> 
> The irony of a dictionary link is just brilliant though
> 
> I'm just messing with you though - it doesn't really matter



I obviously didn't notice the witty riposte in your original reply - can you explain as I still don't get it?.

I just thought you were a snivelling imbecile (hence the link).

Sorry....my mistake


----------



## Corax (Mar 4, 2014)




----------



## ska invita (Mar 4, 2014)

...its kicking off...


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 4, 2014)

Corax said:


>



Ok...the word imbecile may have been slightly offensive as intended, but I must be one as I just don't get this sign.....is it a meme I don't know?

It looks like a nazi sign with a G sideways......errrrrr....without irony, or sarcasrm...pls enlighten me.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 4, 2014)

alfajobrob said:


> Ok...the word imbecile may have been slightly offensive as intended, but I must be one as I just don't get this sign.....is it a meme I don't know?
> 
> It looks like a nazi sign with a G sideways......errrrrr....without irony, or sarcasrm...pls enlighten me.


I looked up the address - grammar nazi


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2014)

ska invita said:


> Thats interesting - so is what you're saying perhaps that theres always been violence, but in the past door staff were more than capable of giving as good as they got and then some, but tighter controls on door staff mean that they are less capable and willing to respond, and so aggravators are getting out of control?


Pretty much, revenge from the door team was an issue to be feared as well.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Mar 5, 2014)

which club does the original statement refer to as likely to close, anyone know?
Veranda?


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Mar 5, 2014)

I remember Camden Palace, big mean nasty bouncers out front, yet absolutely none inside the actual venue. Everyone got along, because they were allowing those individuals to 'operate' freely. it was fantastic!

I also remember everyone had to leave the venue through a side door one morning, to be directed to a policeman and asked about an incident- an incident where the bouncers battered a guy to death!


----------



## editor (Mar 5, 2014)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> I remember Camden Palace, big mean nasty bouncers out front, yet absolutely none inside the actual venue. Everyone got along, because they were allowing those individuals to 'operate' freely. it was fantastic!


Oh, the stories I could tell about the old Camden Palace! There sure was a lot of pockets being lined in that place.


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Mar 5, 2014)

No doubt about it, I was but a misty eyed 18 year old when it closed, gutted beyond words!

Everyone had a great night though, left happy, and the council/police left it alone. Win-win situation IMHO...


----------



## editor (Mar 6, 2014)

The Fridge bar owner has posted a response on the Voice.


> They perceive a 'problem' that they are frightened to address for fear of being labelled 'racist'. I don’t blame them. If I were white I would also refuse to utter a single word to denounce a segment of the visiting public.
> 
> Of course, this is not what they would be actually doing but it would be how it would be perceived. Perception is reality for the majority so silence is often a good business decision.
> 
> ...



http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/exclusive-brixton-fridge-bar-owner-our-clubs-are-risk


----------



## SpamMisery (Mar 6, 2014)

I like the way the Fridge Bar owner writes. They are direct and elegantly bypass many of the racism issues


----------



## kraepelin (Mar 6, 2014)

Its just inner city life...bit ashamed to say.. But 16-17 we use to bring trainers to change into for kicking off..  angel was a pretty white area, bit kicking off was all part of it

Remember telling the blacks kids in school and they looked at us like we were mad.

Urban night life has alway been violent.

People quite often blame race when its class
The lower working class in the area happen to be black. Remove every black face. But keep the poverty and replace the black faces with white and your going to get violence. When you lack the trapping of money yr status is gained by other means

The only difference i can really see is guns.. The black gangs we knew that were as poor as us.. Had much more desire for guns..do think that might be rap..we had more of a straightener culture. But that has died now. The kids that use our old gang name now use knifes


----------



## ddraig (Mar 6, 2014)

cool story bro


----------



## ska invita (Mar 6, 2014)

Have been out for a drink with a friend who is reading the Brixton Academy book out at the mo





Short version of the book: its the story of the guy who bought the Academy just after the riots/uprisings of 81 and had a smoking shell of a building on his hands, and no band he had in mind would play there so (reluctantly) through the 80s he put on jamaican acts and had to face off some hardman JA promoters, not to mention local crime syndicates etc. (thats the relevant bit for this thread anyhow)

I was telling him about this thread (his flatmate saw the beating from the old fridge owners btw), and about TopCat s suggestion that door staff these days are less ingrained in the whole dirty business of it, and that the professionalisation of bouncing has left more room for crime within venues, and he told me some of the stories in the book about the Academy staff and the things they had to face down in the 80s. Sounds like a good book and I think it backs up Topcats point - things were a lot hairier in the past, but venues and staff were as much ensconced in it all in a way that maybe they arent today....


----------



## komodo (Mar 7, 2014)

Remember the dreaded 'Rat Security' from the Academy olden days? I think they would have kept the yoof under control. They may not have been too expensive to hire either. Probably more expensive not to hire them. I think it's a fairly recent thing that people expect to go to a nightclub on a Saturday night and see no violence. It was common event in my distant youth to see the whole place kicking off  and this was in Cornwall! No guns or knives mind. Club owners have to make money and are now expected to keep a place trouble free or lose their licence. It comes down to money in the end.


----------



## moon (Mar 7, 2014)

'Almost every single venue has closed because of violence, the threat of violence, disrespect to their staff and coming to the inevitable conclusion that it is better to close than putting up with that bullshit'

I think sometimes this incidents arise due to staffing or staff training issues.
Serving staff who show a preference to one perceived group over an another is an example.

I'm not saying that this is what happened at the Fridge but it does happen.

A friend once worked in a well know Brixton venue and found a file named 'wogs' in staff filing cabinet. It contained all the employee records of non-white staff members.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 7, 2014)

komodo said:


> Remember the dreaded 'Rat Security' from the Academy olden days? I think they would have kept the yoof under control. They may not have been too expensive to hire either. Probably more expensive not to hire them. I think it's a fairly recent thing that people expect to go to a nightclub on a Saturday night and see no violence. It was common event in my distant youth to see the whole place kicking off  and this was in Cornwall! No guns or knives mind. Club owners have to make money and are now expected to keep a place trouble free or lose their licence. It comes down to money in the end.



I remember Rat Security all too well. Rat himself got charged with murder after they lost the Academy door to another firm. He went to go back in, was rebuffed and came back "wid his tings" in this case a 9mm automatic pistol and shot the bloke on the door (despite the fella wearing a vest) dead.

When Rat Security had the door there it was fairly well known that if you went in team handed and threw your weight about, you were likely to get a early morning visit from his team and get shot in the legs at best.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 7, 2014)

moon said:


> 'Almost every single venue has closed because of violence, the threat of violence, disrespect to their staff and coming to the inevitable conclusion that it is better to close than putting up with that bullshit'
> 
> I think sometimes this incidents arise due to staffing or staff training issues.
> Serving staff who show a preference to one perceived group over an another is an example.
> ...



Sometimes it's nothing to do with staff, training or the owners of the venue.  Sometimes it's just that if you're playing music that's popular with a particular demographic, you end up being a default venue for conflict, and the conflict is not helped by how much stock many youth cultures set in retaining "face".


----------



## TopCat (Mar 7, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sometimes it's nothing to do with staff, training or the owners of the venue.  Sometimes it's just that if you're playing music that's popular with a particular demographic, you end up being a default venue for conflict, and the conflict is not helped by how much stock many youth cultures set in retaining "face".


yeah for sure. Drum n Bass squat parties often attract loads of twats of all "races" armed with crack pipes and blades.


----------



## Cowley (Mar 7, 2014)

ddraig said:


> Oh yeah! I remember being quite fucking scared a couple of times, stank of crack and shit kicking off in different areas! Couldn't tell whether it was another rewind or music stopped due to some extreme violence



There was a lot of local battles going on in there way back then. I wasn't personally involved in them, but knew of plenty of folks who were. local battles like Brixton or Stockwell man fighting with Peckham or Lewisham guys.

The place did drastically go downhill due to drugs and gangs, towards the end it got out of hand IMHO, especially with the amount of Crack being smoked in there.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 9, 2014)

ddraig said:


> Oh yeah! I remember being quite fucking scared a couple of times, stank of crack and shit kicking off in different areas! Couldn't tell whether it was another rewind or music stopped due to some extreme violence


Plus it ended with that bloke getting macheted to death on the dance floor.


----------

