# Chris Kaba, 24, shot dead by police in Streatham, Mon 5th Sept 2022



## GarveyLives (Sep 6, 2022)

The Late *Chris Kaba*, also known as Mad Itch 67 or Madix, who was shot by officers from the Metropolitan Police in Kirkstall Gardens shortly before 10.00 p.m. last night and died in the early hours of this morning:







(Source: MyLondon)

*Specialist Metropolitan Police firearms officers were in pursuit of "a suspect vehicle" when Mr Kaba was killed.*​


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## CH1 (Sep 6, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> The Late *Chris Kaba*, also known as Mad Itch 67 or Madix, who was shot by officers from the Metropolitan Police in Kirkstall Gardens shortly before 10.00 p.m. last night and died in the early hours of this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not even tasered apparently.
We are in the end times.


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## pbsmooth (Sep 6, 2022)

another fallen gang member and professional criminal. live by the sword...


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## girasol (Sep 6, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> another fallen gang member and professional criminal. live by the sword...


fuck off


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## story (Sep 6, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> another fallen gang member and professional criminal. live by the sword...



Fuck off.


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## story (Sep 6, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> The Late *Chris Kaba*, also known as Mad Itch 67 or Madix, who was shot by officers from the Metropolitan Police in Kirkstall Gardens shortly before 10.00 p.m. last night and died in the early hours of this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I posted last night in the Brixton Helicopter thread. I guess if he was associated with the 67 that would explain why they were hovering over here.


Mirror report









						Man who died after being shot by police was about to become a dad for first time
					

Chris Kaba was shot dead in his car by police on Monday night and now his grieving friends and family have revealed he was about to become a dad for the first time




					www.mirror.co.uk


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## story (Sep 6, 2022)

C&P here



!Looks like he was shot through the windscreen while he was in the car.





> Streatham shooting: Man shot dead by police was about to become a dad for first time​Chris Kaba was shot dead in his car by police on Monday night and now his grieving friends and family have revealed he was about to become a dad for the first time​By
> Ella Bennett
> Lucy WilliamsonReporter
> Kelly-Ann Mills
> ...





> Shocking images at the crime scene show a single bullet hole in the windscreen of Mr Kaba's car (
> Image:
> UkNewsinPictures)
> “Look how many people have turned up here, his friends, have you ever seen so many grown men cry like this before?
> ...




Apparently he was unarmed. Seems plausible to me. 

Cops shot him then tried to save him with CPR. Yeah right.





> The pal claimed Mr Kaba was unarmed and had a baby on the way.
> 
> They added: "He [Chris] was unarmed. He was soon to be a father for the first time. This is awful, we're all in huge shock."
> 
> ...


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## pbsmooth (Sep 6, 2022)

“The guy in the car had a lot of opportunities to stop but he refused. He then started driving forward towards a police car and smashed into it then reversed, he just wouldn’t stop the vehicle. I heard one shot. From what I could see he could have killed one of the officers with his car. I don’t understand why he didn’t stop. He was trying to ram his way out and could have easily killed a policeman. He was using his car as a weapon.”


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## story (Sep 6, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> “The guy in the car had a lot of opportunities to stop but he refused. He then started driving forward towards a police car and smashed into it then reversed, he just wouldn’t stop the vehicle. I heard one shot. From what I could see he could have killed one of the officers with his car. I don’t understand why he didn’t stop. He was trying to ram his way out and could have easily killed a policeman. He was using his car as a weapon.”



Fuck off.

If your starting place is “he deserved it, I absolutely believe the police have the right and duty to gun a man down in the street, I absolutely believe that the victim deserved to be killed in this way, no further questions“ then there’s no point discussing this with you.


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## editor (Sep 6, 2022)

Best to get more facts before jumping to conclusions either way.


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## story (Sep 6, 2022)

editor said:


> Best to get more facts before jumping to conclusions either way.



That‘s exactly my point.
We don’t know the whole story, we don’t know the details. Absent any solid information, condemning the man with this “live by the sword die by the sword“ stuff is bullshit


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## story (Sep 6, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> we've seen this so often. we know how the story goes, harry stanley, mark duggan, diarmuid o neill - it's always the same thing.



Yes.

The Met don’t have a good record with this, and that is the background against which they must be judged. Given the really shitty history we have with this stuff it’s sensible and measured to allow that this may be yet another terrible mistake.


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## story (Sep 6, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Until the police produce some evidence they've actually behaved reasonably here I'll put this in the 'another cop murder' pile



I have to say, that’s my feeling too, but I try to keep an open mind in the hope it might be otherwise.


The problem here is that the 67 is a big ongoing issue locally. Some of their top bosses were sent down a few years ago so the system became unstable. There have been some nasty results locally. It was inevitable that some breakdown would result. Whether or not Chris Kaba was still active is irrelevant to this point. Killing him in the street will have some impact. I’m relieved this didn’t happen during the heatwave.

Based on local rumour, I have some suspicions about what may have happened but it’s pure speculation and not worth mentioning out loud right now. Point is there is local chat, and people are angry.


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## pbsmooth (Sep 6, 2022)

I do hope the 67 organised crime gang is going to be OK with all this upheaval.


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## BusLanes (Sep 7, 2022)

Sounds like the council issued its normal letter to residents yesterday and the local councillors did a walk about.

Now the council leader and her colleague have gone to visit.


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## CH1 (Sep 8, 2022)

Didn't post at the time - but sort of topical. Saturday morning about 10.00 am I was waiting for the bus home outside Brixton Tescos in Acre Lane and was treated to a prolonged "stop" of two young black men who were standing at the read of a new "MG" whilst about 3 police men and a police woman were fingering their documents and joshing with them.

1. It did occur to me at the instant that this might explain why our flamboyant "first Black council chief executive on £250,000 pa in 1994 etc etc Heather Rabbatts" chose to drive a Chrome Yellow MG. No doubt she could not face constant police stops - and chose a vehicle so unique there could be no doubt it was her and she did have a right to drive into the council car park at the back of Lambeth Town Hall.
2. What is it with the Met Police that they can pull people up and piss them around - even at 10 am outside Tescos - and they KNOIW that their victims have to go along with the charade - it's only a bit of fun haha, we are only doing our job ha ha - thanks for spending 15 minutes with us whilst we do a police check.
These two on Saturday were in shorts - attired for football practice. How many criminals have been aprehended in MG sports cars on their way to footie practice on Saturday mornings?
3. In view of the Chris Kaba killing by a police officer in Streaham Hill - what training do these police have? It is highly appropriate that Cressida Dick got fired - her involvement in the Jean Claude de Menenzes inquiry was a whitewash. The police are currently still going rogue - and police training seems to be the opposite of bouncer training.
Like its all about how can we wind him/them up. How can we get a reaction and GET them.
The hard core version seems to be how can we provoke a mutual adrenaline surge, have a car chase and a shoot-out.
"During the chase, police used a tactic where they collided with the car they were pursuing to force it to stop."








						Chris Kaba: Man shot dead by police in Streatham named
					

Chris Kaba was shot after police pursued what they described as a "suspect vehicle" in south London.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Same thing (presumably) only as few yards from where I live in the early hours of August 21st. Alleged machete wielding hooligan stabbers in Josephine Avenue - then a police chase to Coldharbour Lane

Here we are in our beds at night, and police "tactics" are turning Brixton into the set of "Escape from New York" (John Carpenter, 1981)
And due to Boris Johnson's policies as Mayor of London we can't even go to the Community/Police Consutlative Group for Lambeth to complain about it this police induced anarchy - Boris the libertarian abolished it!


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## GarveyLives (Sep 8, 2022)

It appears that not all the alleged witnesses to the shooting of the Late Chris Kaba are prepared to follow the script circulated by the Metropolitan Police:

_"A 39-year-old man, who lives on nearby New Park Road and asked not to be named, told the PA news agency: “The (driver) drove up New Park Road and turned up Kirkstall Gardens.

“A *police car* came down Kirkstall Gardens and *crashed into him*.

“*Another police car* came in behind him and *they had him locked in* at the bottom of Kirkstall Gardens.

“*The car was immobile when he was shot*.”_

(Source:  Man shot dead by police ‘was due to become a father’, Evening Standard, 7 September 2022)

In other developments:

_“The family of Chris Kaba seek a homicide investigation into his death from the outset. We have today told the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) of that demand and that we do not want any delay as has happened in other fatal shootings – otherwise we and the wider public can have no confidence that the police will be held to account.

We also want the IOPC to tell us whether or not a weapon was found in any search of the vehicle that Chris was driving. We have not received this information even though the shooting happened almost two days’ ago.

Finally, we are desperately appealing for any witnesses, whether before, during or after the pursuit and the shooting, to come forward to the IOPC and / or to our solicitors at Hickman and Rose. 

We are devastated; we need answers and we need accountability. We are worried that if Chris had not been Black, he would have been arrested on Monday evening and not had his life cut short.”_






(Source: Statement issued by the family of the Late Chris Kaba, 7 September 2022)​

_Like me, *Chris grew up in this area*. His family have since moved from the area but *he has a lot of friends here* and with the level of mistrust in particular, communities - black, African and Caribbean communities - you can see what people are thinking. 

'Especially what they were thinking when they heard this had happened and they didn't have any of the initial details.

'As far as they were concerned, in that particular situation, there could have been a different outcome.

'Now it's right that there is an IOPC investigation and with that we hope to get the information on what has happened but it's no surprise that Chris's family are now calling for a murder investigation.

'And no surprise that because of what has happened and because of all of the incidents we've seen in the past that they believe this is a racist incident.'

'The major issue is that they didn't give key information right at the beginning,' 

'Key information which as far as we're concerned wouldn't have prejudiced the investigation.'_

(Source:  Bell Ribeiro-Addy, Member of Parliament for Streatham, Good Morning Britain, 7 September 2022)  

_"... We understand at this stage that police officers in an armed response vehicle attempted to stop the vehicle Mr Kaba was in, following the activation of an automatic number plate recognition camera which indicated the vehicle was linked to a firearms incident in the previous days ... 

A detailed search of the scene and surrounding area was completed last night. *No non-police issue firearm has been recovered from the vehicle or the scene* ..."_

(Source:  Update #2: Investigation into fatal Met police shooting in Lambeth, Independent Office for Police Conduct, 7 September 2022)






(Source: The family of the Late Chris Kaba)​
*Anyone with information that may be useful in helping the Independent Office for Police Conduct determine precisely what took place on the evening of Monday 5 September 2022 is asked to contact the Independent Office for Police Conduct by phoning 0300 303 0779 or by emailing witness@policeconduct.gov.uk - referencing “Streatham Hill”.*


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## jimbarkanoodle (Sep 8, 2022)

BusLanes said:


> Sounds like the council issued its normal letter to residents yesterday and the local councillors did a walk about.
> 
> Now the council leader and her colleague have gone to visit.



I saw on the twitter feed of this post a link to an article where 4 years ago a man from South London with the same name was charged with possesion of a gun following a shooting in Newham. Is it the same individual?


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## CH1 (Sep 8, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> I saw on the twitter feed of this post a link to an article where 4 years ago a man from South London with the same name was charged with possesion of a gun following a shooting in Newham. Is it the same individual?


There was this Man, 19, charged with Canning Town shooting
Do the pictures and ages match?
But seems he did not have a gun this weekend.
Maybe if you are on the police computer in 2018 the record follows you round until they zap you like in Space Invaders?


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## editor (Sep 8, 2022)

Apparently Brixton Bid been going around warning businesses to shut because there will be riots or something to do with this shooting.

Anyone know any more?


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## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2022)

it's rainy. there won't be riots while it's rainy. when the weather's better on the other hand...


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## editor (Sep 8, 2022)

So a better informed source has told me that it's the Brixton Bid overreacting - all that is planned is a protest outside the police station at 3pm today.
And it's sunny now.


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## CH1 (Sep 8, 2022)

editor said:


> So a better informed source has told me that it's the Brixton Bid overreacting - all that is planned is a protest outside the police station at 3pm today.
> And it's sunny now.


Will Movement for Justice be there? Haven't seen them for ages.


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## editor (Sep 8, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Will Movement for Justice be there? Haven't seen them for ages.


I'll pop down and take a look shortly


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## editor (Sep 8, 2022)

No one here.


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## editor (Sep 8, 2022)




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## CH1 (Sep 8, 2022)

editor said:


> View attachment 341574
> 
> No one here.


Bel and the family are requesting the family arranges any action


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## editor (Sep 8, 2022)

Photos from today









						Multiple Brixton shops close down after warnings of  ‘civil unrest in the area’ in response to police shooting, Thurs 8th Sept 2022
					

Multiple shops on Brixton Road have closed down today after being sent warnings that there was ‘potential civil unrest in the area’ following the news of a proposed protest over the pol…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


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## editor (Sep 8, 2022)

*I'm moved the posts from the Streatham general news thread to this dedicated thread.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2022)

editor said:


> So a better informed source has told me that it's the Brixton Bid overreacting - all that is planned is a protest outside the police station at 3pm today.
> And it's sunny now.


i'd have thought it a safe bet from the outset that the bid bit was bollocks.


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## David Clapson (Sep 8, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Didn't post at the time - but sort of topical. Saturday morning about 10.00 am I was waiting for the bus home outside Brixton Tescos in Acre Lane and was treated to a prolonged "stop" of two young black men who were standing at the read of a new "MG" whilst about 3 police men and a police woman were fingering their documents and joshing with them.
> 
> 1. It did occur to me at the instant that this might explain why our flamboyant "first Black council chief executive on £250,000 pa in 1994 etc etc Heather Rabbatts" chose to drive a Chrome Yellow MG. No doubt she could not face constant police stops - and chose a vehicle so unique there could be no doubt it was her and she did have a right to drive into the council car park at the back of Lambeth Town Hall.
> 2. What is it with the Met Police that they can pull people up and piss them around - even at 10 am outside Tescos - and they KNOIW that their victims have to go along with the charade - it's only a bit of fun haha, we are only doing our job ha ha - thanks for spending 15 minutes with us whilst we do a police check.
> ...


I think you've got this wrong in every possible way. Need a long time to reply, which I don't have right now. May come back to it.


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## friendofdorothy (Sep 8, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I think you've got this wrong in every possible way. Need a long time to reply, which I don't have right now. May come back to it.


The fact that the police stop and search a disproportionate number of black people is well documented.  

Young black people still feel they have to routinely carry all their receipts to prove their ownership of everything from cars to shopping.


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## friendofdorothy (Sep 8, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Here we are in our beds at night, and police "tactics" are turning Brixton into the set of "Escape from New York" (John Carpenter, 1981)
> And due to Boris Johnson's policies as Mayor of London we can't even go to the Community/Police Consutlative Group for Lambeth to complain about it this police induced anarchy - Boris the libertarian abolished it!


community policing has been cut time and again.


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## CH1 (Sep 8, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I think you've got this wrong in every possible way. Need a long time to reply, which I don't have right now. May come back to it.


I await your response with interest.


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## friendofdorothy (Sep 8, 2022)

editor said:


> Photos from today
> 
> 
> 
> ...





CH1 said:


> 3. In view of the Chris Kaba killing by a police officer in Streaham Hill - what training do these police have? It is highly appropriate that Cressida Dick got fired - her involvement in the Jean Claude de Menenzes inquiry was a whitewash. The police are currently still going rogue - and police training seems to be the opposite of bouncer training.
> Like its all about how can we wind him/them up. How can we get a reaction and GET them.
> The hard core version seems to be how can we provoke a mutual adrenaline surge, have a car chase and a shoot-out.
> "During the chase, police used a tactic where they collided with the car they were pursuing to force it to stop."



sounds like the traders would agree, they obviously feared a community back lash today.  

Do we really want to live in a city where the police shoot unarmed people? where they shoot first and ask questions after? Have they learned nothing from previous shootings and subsequent unrest? Totally pisses me off.


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## Gramsci (Sep 8, 2022)

Statement from family on Inquest website who are supporting the family of man killed by police.









						Streatham police shooting: Family of Chris Kaba demand criminal investigation
					

7 September 2022




					www.inquest.org.uk


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## David Clapson (Sep 9, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I await your response with interest


I'd rather not get into it until we know for certain what happened. But it seems a lot of people are already making big assumptions, so here are a few things I would consider.

The police say there was a car chase, which means they had asked him to pull over but he wouldn't. That alone is a crime for which you can be jailed.   So it's highly suspicious if you do it....you could be trying to get away with something more serious.

The police also say his vehicle registration was linked by ANPR to a gun incident. If that's true (and it can't be faked) they were right to ram him (which they are trained to do) and to draw their guns in the expectation that he may have had a gun. They would have been in fear for their lives. Stopping a firearms suspect in a car is one of the most dangerous things they do.

This happened at night in a side street, and the car windscreen was almost certainly slightly tinted, because that's standard for modern cars.  So visibility was bad. So it's very easy for an officer, when seeing the suspect raise a phone or something, to mistake it for a gun. In these circumstances (failure to stop, ramming, officers with guns drawn, bad visibility, ANPR link to firearms) it's virtually suicidal to be picking up an object and moving your hands. Makes no difference what race you are. You're begging to be shot.

I hate to say all this....a young unarmed man has been shot to death. Some will say he brought it on himself but I know that young black men are right to be scared of the police. If they are stopped they might well be fitted up and/or beaten up and/or die in custody. If I was them I wouldn't stop in a side street, I'd drive slowly, with my hazard lights on (to indicate compliance) to somewhere busy, full of witnesses, for my own protection.  Then I'd pull over and sit still.

But maybe he panicked. Maybe he was involved with firearms and threw his gun out of the window during the chase. Maybe the officer panicked. Maybe the ANPR hit was a typo or a glitch. Maybe the car just happened to be seen on video near somebody else's gun crime.

Even if it comes out that he was involved with guns, the vast majority of the black community will say the police are lying, and his death will be added to the tally of murders by racist police. The mistrust will be even deeper and this kind of death will become even more likely to happen.

I don't think relations between the police and the black community will ever recover from all the injustices of the last 50 years. It will just get worse and worse. The only solution is for half the Met to be black. That will never happen.

Very late ETA: I wrote this before I knew he was allegedly driving at an officer. As I posted later, IF that's the reason he was shot it doesn't make sense to me, because the officer would have defended himself better by backing away, not by shooting (because the chance of the first shot killing the driver would be low.)


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## pbsmooth (Sep 9, 2022)

he was a known member of 67 gang who had only just got out of jail, clearly failed to stop when asked and they have witnesses saying he was trying to ram police cars/officers. I don't think the Met will have an issue defending their officers. he was supposedly one of the most 'active' members of a gang who collectively have been sent to jail for large county lines drug operations and multiple murders, stabbings, beatings, so I have trouble with painting him as innocent victim.


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## CH1 (Sep 9, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> he was a known member of 67 gang who had only just got out of jail, clearly failed to stop when asked and they have witnesses saying he was trying to ram police cars/officers. I don't think the Met will have an issue defending their officers. he was supposedly one of the most 'active' members of a gang who collectively have been sent to jail for large county lines drug operations and multiple murders, stabbings, beatings, so I have trouble with painting him as innocent victim.


Will it take 10 years for all this to be published in a transparent fashion?
I do rather object to this ramming tactic as well. That's two in two weeks - one with fatal results.
David Clapson I think you underestimate the power of hormones on the suspects AND the police.
Not only that - dig out your copy of "Games People Play" Eric Berne MD 1956.
I feel that these situations are field-work versions of "Let you and him fight!"
That's why I say send the Met Police on SIA courses and de-fund Hendon.


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## David Clapson (Sep 9, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> he was a known member of 67 gang who had only just got out of jail, clearly failed to stop when asked and they have witnesses saying he was trying to ram police cars/officers. I don't think the Met will have an issue defending their officers. he was supposedly one of the most 'active' members of a gang who collectively have been sent to jail for large county lines drug operations and multiple murders, stabbings, beatings, so I have trouble with painting him as innocent victim.


I see what you mean How a South London gang supplied drugs across the South East Do you have a link about him being jailed?


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## David Clapson (Sep 9, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Will it take 10 years for all this to be published in a transparent fashion?
> I do rather object to this ramming tactic as well. That's two in two weeks - one with fatal results.
> David Clapson I think you underestimate the power of hormones on the suspects AND the police.
> Not only that - dig out your copy of "Games People Play" Eric Berne MD 1956.
> ...


Not sure i follow much of that.


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## Not a Vet (Sep 9, 2022)

If you really want to see it from the other side, you can request a ride along with the met and go out with them. There’s a consent form on the met’s website and there’s a criminal record check, they say having convictions doesn’t necessarily rule it out either, not that anyone on urbs would have such a thing obviously.


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## David Clapson (Sep 9, 2022)

Not a Vet said:


> If you really want to see it from the other side, you can request a ride along with the met and go out with them. There’s a consent form on the met’s website and there’s a criminal record check, they say having convictions doesn’t necessarily rule it out either, not that anyone on urbs would have such a thing obviously.


I doubt that's possible in the armed response cars


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## Not a Vet (Sep 9, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I doubt that's possible in the armed response cars


No it was more the stop and search stuff


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## CH1 (Sep 9, 2022)

Not a Vet said:


> If you really want to see it from the other side, you can request a ride along with the met and go out with them. There’s a consent form on the met’s website and there’s a criminal record check, they say having convictions doesn’t necessarily rule it out either, not that anyone on urbs would have such a thing obviously.


Couldn't you just stay home and watch Taxi Driver?


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## CH1 (Sep 9, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Not sure i follow much of that.


No more than I followed your description the other day of the Brixton Library steps being obstructed by women on crack. I did pass by this morning at about 9.30 am and there was one old black man drinking Skol Super on a bench on the Town Hall side of the square..


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## pbsmooth (Sep 9, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I see what you mean How a South London gang supplied drugs across the South East Do you have a link about him being jailed?


He posted on his own social media about being "fresh out" 7 months ago. 
Follow the drill gangs and a relatively small number of people are responsible for a large number of stabbings and related violence in our communities.


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## Anthonysw9 (Sep 9, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I see what you mean How a South London gang supplied drugs across the South East Do you have a link about him being jailed?


Man, 19, charged with Canning Town shooting


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## David Clapson (Sep 9, 2022)

Anthonysw9 said:


> Man, 19, charged with Canning Town shooting


Was he convicted?


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## David Clapson (Sep 9, 2022)

CH1 said:


> No more than I followed your description the other day of the Brixton Library steps being obstructed by women on crack. I did pass by this morning at about 9.30 am and there was one old black man drinking Skol Super on a bench on the Town Hall side of the square..


Can you try not to be an idiot on this important thread?


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## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

Car wasn’t registered  to him and incident now being investigated as homicide.


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## CH1 (Sep 9, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Can you try not to be an idiot on this important thread?


Look the reality is I AM an idiot - and you are a bigot.


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## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> “The guy in the car had a lot of opportunities to stop but he refused. He then started driving forward towards a police car and smashed into it then reversed, he just wouldn’t stop the vehicle. I heard one shot. From what I could see he could have killed one of the officers with his car. I don’t understand why he didn’t stop. He was trying to ram his way out and could have easily killed a policeman. He was using his car as a weapon.”


Bizarrely detailed witness account here. I’d be very careful about believing very much that is said in defence of the police at the moment. What happened after Jean Charles de Menezes killing is a warning to all about misinformation spread by the police.


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## Anthonysw9 (Sep 9, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Was he convicted?


According to this article in The Telegraph yesterday, he was handed a four-year sentence for that firearms offence.
https://webcache.googleusercontent..../&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-b-d


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## David Clapson (Sep 9, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> He posted on his own social media about being "fresh out" 7 months ago.


Got a link?


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## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it's rainy. there won't be riots while it's rainy. when the weather's better on the other hand...



Yeah, telly’s fucked by the time you get it home.

I’d have thought the Met would want to get some bodycam footage out double-quick if this shooting is all above board.


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## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

“From what I could see he could have killed one of the officers with his car. I don’t understand why he didn’t stop.

“He was trying to ram his way out and could have easily killed a policeman. He was using his car as a weapon.”

This is such a suspicious quote from a witness in the middle of the night - just immediately making out that any shooting was because officers feared for their life.


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## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

edcraw said:


> “From what I could see he could have killed one of the officers with his car. I don’t understand why he didn’t stop.
> 
> “He was trying to ram his way out and could have easily killed a policeman. He was using his car as a weapon.”
> 
> This is such a suspicious quote from a witness in the middle of the night - just immediately making out that any shooting was because officers feared for their life.



No street lights in that area?


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## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

8ball said:


> No street lights in that area?


Yes - there are streetlights, but it’s hardly very well lit. But if your a local resident woken up and looking out of a window or a passerby are you really going to get that much detail.

Also, note there’s no detail of whether the witness is a resident or passerby, why no detail? Sounds pretty much like that’s come from the police tbh.


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## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Yes - there are streetlights, but it’s hardly very well lit. But if your a local resident woken up and looking out of a window or a passerby are you really going to get that much detail.
> 
> Also, note there’s no detail of whether the witness is a resident or passerby, why no detail? Sounds pretty much like that’s come from the police tbh.



I read it as being a witness on the street cos yeah, if I’d just woken up I’d be useless at saying what happened.

You’re right that the statement contains some pre-baked court-friendly details, though.

The second witness report is much more what I’d expect.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

8ball said:


> I read it as being a witness on the street cos yeah, if I’d just woken up I’d be useless at saying what happened.
> 
> You’re right that the statement contains some pre-baked court-friendly details, though.


Every time incidents like this happen police friendly accounts come out - he jumped the barrier, he had wires coming out of his coat, he was changing buses to avoid being followed, police shouted armed police - and that’s just Jean Charles de Menezes. 

Disgusting that the police immediately try and protect their own rather than actually try and find out what happened so they don’t fuck up again.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

Weird reaction Anthonysw9 - care to explain?


----------



## CH1 (Sep 9, 2022)

Anthonysw9 said:


> According to this article in The Telegraph yesterday, he was handed a four-year sentence for that firearms offence.
> https://webcache.googleusercontent..../&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-b-d


The article says he was sentenced for possession of an IMITATION firearm.
What does that mean?
This happened on the Angell Town Estate in 2001.,


			UK Shooting | AP Archive
		


One is fed up with macho mistakes. Might as well live in the Philippines or Brazil if its OK to gun down people because they have a cigarette lighter in the shape of a gun - or because they were sentenced in 2018 for possessing an imitation firearm.

One could imply this was "taking back control" - except they've been doing it this way for years.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

CH1 said:


> The article says he was sentenced for possession of an IMITATION firearm.
> What does that mean?



Typically a replica.
Something convincing to either wave at someone to scare them, or use on a movie set.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

8ball said:


> Typically a replica.
> Something convincing to either wave at someone to scare them, or use on a movie set.


Or a table leg…






						Shooting of Harry Stanley - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Or a table leg…
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That’s what you get shot for carrying, not what you get convicted for carrying.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 9, 2022)

Bell just put this up on Twitter


----------



## GarveyLives (Sep 9, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> It appears that not all the alleged witnesses to the shooting of the Late Chris Kaba are prepared to follow the script circulated by the Metropolitan Police:
> 
> _"A 39-year-old man, who lives on nearby New Park Road and asked not to be named, told the PA news agency: “The (driver) drove up New Park Road and turned up Kirkstall Gardens.
> 
> ...



Following their review of the _evidence_ (as opposed to stories circulated by the Metropolitan Police and its agents) gathered so far, the Independent Office for Police Conduct  has now launched a homicide investigation into the killing of the Late Chris Kaba:.

Chris Kaba: _Murder_ investigation launched into death of black rapper shot by police


----------



## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

8ball said:


> That’s what you get shot for carrying, not what you get convicted for carrying.


True - one can get overturned the other can’t. 

Good example of why to be very wary of police accounts though.


----------



## Not a Vet (Sep 9, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Couldn't you just stay home and watch Taxi Driver?


It might, just might give you another perspective on policing in London, that’s all I’m saying


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

edcraw said:


> True - one can get overturned the other can’t.
> 
> Good example of why to be very wary of police accounts though.



Yeah, not verified as a police account but is filled with convenient details.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 9, 2022)

Seems to me that Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP has had a consistently professional approach to this. She got involved, but has sought to feed out information in a non-inflamatory way.
eg yesterday when a demo was mooted

https://twitter.com/BellRibeiroAddy
https://twitter.com/BellRibeiroAddy


----------



## CH1 (Sep 9, 2022)

Not a Vet said:


> It might, just might give you another perspective on policing in London, that’s all I’m saying


I have had lived experience of policing - and reasons to be critical. 
Could go on at length, but that is me - this is a particular current event.
To me it's a moral issue. And it starts with finding a better way to deal with drug gangsterism that shoot outs.

And - most important this reflex reaction of "Black male = taser or police marksman"

Look at the poor guy with learning difficulties murdered on Chelsea Bridge by applying a taser like a terror weapon.








						Chelsea Bridge death: family say Met police wrong to Taser man
					

Relatives of Oladeji Omishore say 41-year-old was ‘clearly in distress’ and Met actions contributed to his death




					www.theguardian.com
				




It's got to stop and I have no confidence in Suella Braverman stopping it.


----------



## Not a Vet (Sep 9, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I have had lived experience of policing - and reasons to be critical.
> Could go on at length, but that is me - this is a particular current event.
> To me it's a moral issue. And it starts with finding a better way to deal with drug gangsterism that shoot outs.
> 
> ...


Fair enough


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Look at the poor guy with learning difficulties murdered on Chelsea Bridge by applying a taser like a terror weapon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That guy on the bridge. 

I think it’s relevant though that with this shooting, if the police are telling the truth about his behaviour, then he had declined several off-ramps.

I think from what we know at this point, then if being as charitable as possible to the police, we could imagine seeing some video that looks outrageous, or that looks fairly justified.

But no clear video released as far as I know, so…


----------



## pbsmooth (Sep 9, 2022)

Yeah and I've got lived experience of fucking murderous drug gangs.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Yeah and I've got lived experience of fucking murderous drug gangs.


The police have killed an unarmed man. They seem to have admitted they didn’t know who he was as it wasn’t his car. Even if he was involved in gangs that’s no justification. Why are you so quick to defend? 

We’ve had so many incidences of dodgy police killings with coverups that we all should question heavily any accounts and the police can’t get any benefit of the doubt.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

edcraw said:


> The police have killed an unarmed man.



We need some official guidance on when a car is a deadly weapon and when it isn’t.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

8ball said:


> We need some official guidance on when a car is a deadly weapon and when it isn’t.


You’re making quite an assumption that he was using the car as a weapon - even if he was, was deadly force necessary.

You’re talking about his gang affiliations when it seems the police have said they didn’t know who he was or were pursuing him personally.

Fair enough asking questions but you seem to be doing the opposite and being unquestioning of the police.

Experience says we should question everything the police say in situations like this.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 9, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Yeah and I've got lived experience of fucking murderous drug gangs.


Elucidate? If you are a member of the public that is. My particular problem in this discussion is that I am 68 and haven't been mugged, or threatened with it since at least 2000. On the other hand I have lived in central Brixton since 1978. But there again central Brixton isn't where the action is - any more.

I imagine problems with drug suppliers might occur - if one were a user - at the interface. Again I have a problem because I only ever smoked other peoples cannabis, and then only about 7 times 1994 and earlier. So pbsmooth  are you a user? Or a young person of colour being intimidated for not joining a gang?

Or a policeman perhaps? There is a precedent."The Commander" wrecked his career by posting on here - but he was in favour of liberalisation and the Daily Mail soon found his weak spot.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

edcraw said:


> You’re making quite an assumption that he was using the car as a weapon - even if he was, was deadly force necessary.
> 
> You’re talking about his gang affiliations when it seems the police have said they didn’t know who he was or were pursuing him personally.
> 
> ...



I made no assumptions.
I was just quibbling with the term “unarmed”.    

Also, I didn’t say anything about gang affiliations, so not sure if you’ve mixed up some posts/posters.

Edit: Similar with being unquestioning of the police.  See prior posts.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 9, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> But maybe he panicked. Maybe he was involved with firearms and threw his gun out of the window during the chase. Maybe the officer panicked. Maybe the ANPR hit was a typo or a glitch. Maybe the car just happened to be seen on video near somebody else's gun crime.



if only they could find the gun wrapped in a sock hunderds of yards away from the car 




tbf we are not America but that based on people not fearing for their lives from being murdered by police


----------



## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

8ball said:


> I made no assumptions.
> I was just quibbling with the term “unarmed”.
> 
> Also, I didn’t say anything about gang affiliations, so not sure if you’ve mixed up some posts/posters.


Sorry - yes, must have mixed you up. But driving a vehicle can’t really be described as armed can it?

And this speculation that he was killed for trying to drive at the police seems to be from one unnamed verbose witness.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 9, 2022)

It stinks


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Sorry - yes, must have mixed you up. But driving a vehicle can’t really be described as armed can it?



It often is on this site.
I think it’s an “it depends”.  Using the term “armed” is confusing, but without some detail, “unarmed” isn’t really giving the right impression either (eg. see Waukesha massacre).


----------



## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

8ball said:


> It often is on this site.
> I think it’s an “it depends”.  Using the term “armed” is confusing, but without some detail, “unarmed” isn’t really giving the right impression either (eg. see Waukesha massacre).


It’s pure speculation he was killed for driving at the police based on that one dodgy witness account. To call him armed for driving a car is obviously ridiculous.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 9, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Yeah and I've got lived experience of fucking murderous drug gangs.



aye but did the murderous drug gang give you a badge and back you thru court and public opinion regardless


the police are not a gang and should never be allowed to become one

look at america for how this plays out


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

edcraw said:


> It’s pure speculation he was killed for driving at the police based on that one dodgy witness account. To call him armed for driving a car is obviously ridiculous.



Yes, depends whether that account turns out to be true.

I agree there are reasons to treat it with caution.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Sorry - yes, must have mixed you up. But driving a vehicle can’t really be described as armed can it?
> 
> And this speculation that he was killed for trying to drive at the police seems to be from one unnamed verbose witness.


You don't always post with concision.  Do you think that verbosity undermines evidence? I look forward to seeing this convenient witness's evidence tested in court


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You don't always post with concision.  Do you think that verbosity undermines evidence? I look forward to seeing this convenient witness's evidence tested in court



To me, it’s not the verbosity so much as the fact that it so neatly contains every detail required to exonerate the officers.

When you take that into account it’s actually quite concise.  But there’s no irrelevant filler, just what is needed to make the cops look good.

Not to say there’s anything iffy about it, but it’s very convenient.


----------



## Dystopiary (Sep 9, 2022)

I'd suggest that anyone automatically taking the side of the police have a proper good look through here: 

Filth by name. . . 

An ongoing litany of killings, rapes, voyeurism, blackmail, paedophilia, violent assaults, framings and more.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2022)

8ball said:


> To me, it’s not the verbosity so much as the fact that it so neatly contains every detail required to exonerate the officers.
> 
> When you take that into account it’s actually quite concise.  But there’s no irrelevant filler, just what is needed to make the cops look good.


Hence the convenience of the witness, if they even exist.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Hence the convenience of the witness, if they even exist.



Not sure how things go if that witness vanishes.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You don't always post with concision.  Do you think that verbosity undermines evidence? I look forward to seeing this convenient witness's evidence tested in court


You’ve read it - that level of detail for a fast moving situation in the middle of the night and then to also give a self defence case to the police is very fucking suspicious. 

As I mentioned no detail of whether it was a resident or passerby  just described as a witness. The police officers will have been witnesses so definitely covers them as well. A journalistic way of muddying the waters just as they say “sources close to” such and such MP when they mean the MP themselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2022)

8ball said:


> Not sure how things go if that witness vanishes.


Like a puff of smoke


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Like a puff of smoke



I’d feel iffy as the police if I was releasing such a perfect exoneration story when the witness was prone to dematerialising.  We’ll have to see.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

Anyone know if they’ve changed the rules so that police involved can no longer confer with each other to get their stories straight before giving their statements?









						Death of Sean Rigg - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

edcraw said:


> You’ve read it - that level of detail for a fast moving situation in the middle of the night and then to also give a self defence case to the police is very fucking suspicious.
> 
> As I mentioned no detail of whether it was a resident or passerby  just described as a witness. The police officers will have been witnesses so definitely covers them as well. A journalistic way of muddying the waters just as they say “sources close to” such and such MP when they mean the MP themselves.



Definitely possible.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Anyone know if they’ve changed the rules so that police involved can no longer confer with each other to get their stories straight before giving their statements?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am not aware of any change in that regard.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 9, 2022)

8ball said:


> I’d feel iffy as the police if I was releasing such a perfect exoneration story when the witness was prone to dematerialising.  We’ll have to see.


The point is it’s just to muddy the waters from the off - put doubt in peoples’ minds - maybe he deserved it, maybe the police were justified in killing him. Doesn’t have to be true, this shit sticks.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 9, 2022)

edcraw said:


> The point is it’s just to muddy the waters from the off - put doubt in peoples’ minds - maybe he deserved it, maybe the police were justified in killing him. Doesn’t have to be true, this shit sticks.



Maybe they _were_ justified in shooting him.  No way of us here knowing for sure.

But yeah, initial reports like this really need to be fully justified.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 10, 2022)

Seems like the Brixton demo has been moved to parliament/Scotland Yard, which seems appropriate.
No idea who's organising.


----------



## rich! (Sep 10, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Seems like the Brixton demo has been moved to parliament/Scotland Yard, which seems appropriate.
> No idea who's organising.
> View attachment 341998



The family have said they are working with some people from Kill The Bill, and the demo seems to have reached out to GBC/NetPol and the like. Feels important to turn up.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 10, 2022)

They should learn a thing or one from how the US do things these days and release the bodycam footage, then we can all see how the officer who fired the shot perceived an imminent threat of deadly harm.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 10, 2022)

The Standard quotes a witness saying he was trying to run police over: 


> “Armed police jumped out and were shouting at the man ‘get out of the car’. It was at least a dozen times. The guy in the car had a lot of opportunities to stop but he refused. He then started driving forward towards a police car and smashed into it then reversed, he just wouldn’t stop the vehicle. I heard one shot. “From what I could see he could have killed one of the officers with his car. I don’t understand why he didn’t stop. He was trying to ram his way out and could have easily killed a policeman. He was using his car as a weapon.”











						Rapper dies after being shot by police in Streatham
					

Witnesses said the man had tried to drive his car at police officers




					www.standard.co.uk
				




The Mirror has this: 








We're told there was one shot through thw windscreen. So perhaps the guy who fired was standing in front of Kaba's car while Kaba was trying to ram the police car out of the way. Maybe the Met will go with the officer being 'forced to defend himself' by killing the driver. Seems like a risky way to defend yourself - you'd have to kill the driver instantly with your first shot. Why not just step backwards?

Family call for a "homicide investigation" after dad-to-be shot dead by officer


----------



## edcraw (Sep 10, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> The Standard quotes a witness saying he was trying to run police over:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hadn’t seen that that the the exact location. There’s hardly any houses with good views of that point. Very suspicious witness statement.









						Google Maps
					

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




					maps.app.goo.gl


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> They should learn a thing or one from how the US do things these days and release the bodycam footage, then we can all see how the officer who fired the shot perceived an imminent threat of deadly harm.


They can't release what they've lost, wasn't recorded due to equipment failure or never bothered recording in the first place


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 10, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Anyone know if they’ve changed the rules so that police involved can no longer confer with each other to get their stories straight before giving their statements?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why would they change that rule? It works out very well for them.

Even when it's later shown that the story they all got straight was a lie, and that instead of just normal perjury they (along with their lawyers and senior brass) are also therefore guilty of a conspiracy to commit perjury, that can all be brushed under the carpet.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 10, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Hadn’t seen that that the the exact location. There’s hardly any houses with good views of that point. Very suspicious witness statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are upstairs windows.


----------



## GarveyLives (Sep 10, 2022)

> _"This fatal shooting, and the Met Police’s handling of it, will do nothing to restore shattered confidence”_



Bell Ribeiro-Addy, Member of Parliament for Streatham, places the killing of Chris Kaba in context:

Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP on grieving Chris Kaba, and holding the Met Police accountable


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 10, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> Bell Ribeiro-Addy, Member of Parliament for Streatham, places the killing of Chris Kaba in context:
> 
> Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP on grieving Chris Kaba, and holding the Met Police accountable



Thanks. A good piece by the MP. Gal Dem is a good website but it's not one that everyone is going to notice. The MP article could do with wider coverage.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> Thanks. A good piece by the MP. Gal Dem is a good website but it's not one that everyone is going to notice. The MP article could do with wider coverage.


It's astounding to see an mp do something useful like that


----------



## CH1 (Sep 10, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> Thanks. A good piece by the MP. Gal Dem is a good website but it's not one that everyone is going to notice. The MP article could do with wider coverage.


If you follow Gal-Dem's Instagram link there is a racist comment at the top of the list. It's appalling.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 10, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> There are upstairs windows.


In like one house. That witness account is obviously absolute bollocks.


----------



## Kev424242 (Sep 10, 2022)

Sky News are reporting the Justice for Chris Kaba march as a tribute walk for the Queen's death.


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

editor said:


> Apparently Brixton Bid been going around warning businesses to shut because there will be riots or something to do with this shooting.
> 
> Anyone know any more?




So much knee jerk reaction. It’s embarrassing.






David Clapson said:


> I'd rather not get into it until we know for certain what happened. But it seems a lot of people are already making big assumptions, so here are a few things I would consider.
> 
> The police say there was a car chase, which means they had asked him to pull over but he wouldn't. That alone is a crime for which you can be jailed.   So it's highly suspicious if you do it....you could be trying to get away with something more serious.
> 
> ...



So much conjecture here. He could have… he might have… if so and so then such and such…. Looks like you’re trying to justify your prejudices to me.





pbsmooth said:


> he was a known member of 67 gang who had only just got out of jail, clearly failed to stop when asked and they have witnesses saying he was trying to ram police cars/officers. I don't think the Met will have an issue defending their officers. he was supposedly one of the most 'active' members of a gang who collectively have been sent to jail for large county lines drug operations and multiple murders, stabbings, beatings, so I have trouble with painting him as innocent victim.




Yes the 67 do horrible stuff. And some of them have been caught convicted and sent down. I don’t know what Chris Kaba was sent down for. He did his time and was released. You are making the assumption that because he was previously convicted he remained a dangerous and nasty person. How about the possibility that he decided he didn’t want to stay in the gang, found love, had a child on the way and wanted to be a better person? Maybe he still had some associations with the gang. It would be very weird if he didn’t. The 67 is a complex network round here, not everyone associated with them is criminal. Neither of us know which of these scenarios is closer to the truth. Your automatic assumption that he was still a wrong’un speaks more to your prejudices than it does to anything known about Chris Kaba.








8ball said:


> I read it as being a witness on the street cos yeah, if I’d just woken up I’d be useless at saying what happened.
> 
> You’re right that the statement contains some pre-baked court-friendly details, though.
> 
> The second witness report is much more what I’d expect.



To be fair, whenever I’ve been in a position to witness a serious crime I’ve made sure to note as much detail as possible. When I lived in downtown Brixton there was a murder and an attempted murder within a block of where I lived, plus multiple muggings. I did give statements about the murder and the stabbing, and I was very careful to be as exact and clear as possible, not least because I didn’t want the cops to elide or fudge what I was saying.

On another occasion, with a mugging, they very clumsily tried to get me to fudge and blur what I was saying. It became clear that the person they’d arrested was not the person who had committed the mugging, but because they suspected he had been involved with crime on other occasions they were trying to pin this on him. They tried to change my description (“ when you say his hair was…. do you really mean it was…? the track suit top was grey….could it have been blue…?”) I stopped the interview and refused to sign the pages they’d filled in, and the remaining half a blank page they asked me to sign.






pbsmooth said:


> Yeah and I've got lived experience of fucking murderous drug gangs.



And your solution to this problem is to gun down suspects in the street? Your anger may be righteous but that doesn’t justify vigilante retribution dished out by the cops ffs.





Ax^ said:


> if only they could find the gun wrapped in a sock hunderds of yards away from the car



They cordoned off a section of New Park Road across the bottom of Kirkstall Gardens, where there are grassy verges and front gardens. I wondered if they‘d cordoned off such a large area because they were looking for the “flung gun”.





8ball said:


> To me, it’s not the verbosity so much as the fact that it so neatly contains every detail required to exonerate the officers.
> 
> When you take that into account it’s actually quite concise.  But there’s no irrelevant filler, just what is needed to make the cops look good.
> 
> Not to say there’s anything iffy about it, but it’s very convenient.



I agree that the statement does seem very convenient but as I said above, when I’ve given a statement about a crime I’ve always tried to be as clear and detailed as I can.




David Clapson said:


> There are upstairs windows.



No there aren’t. In that photo, the houses on both sides of the street at that point have their gable end facing the street. No windows.
ETA Having now seen footage of the scene I’ll correct this and say that there are two small windows on one of the houses at that location. I still think it’s unlikely that someone was in position to witness the entire incident in one of those windows.


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

Kev424242 said:


> Sky News are reporting the Justice for Chris Kaba march as a tribute walk for the Queen's death.





Fucking hell.

This is just asking for trouble. If the peaceful protest and demonstration is disrespected so brazenly it will trigger further outrage.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 10, 2022)

story said:


> So much knee jerk reaction. It’s embarrassing.
> 
> So much conjecture here.



Erm:



story said:


> Your anger may be righteous but that doesn’t justify vigilante retribution dished out by the cops ffs.
> 
> 
> They cordoned off a section of New Park Road across the bottom of Kirkstall Gardens, where there are grassy verges and front gardens. I wondered if they‘d cordoned off such a large area because they were looking for the “flung gun”.



Conjecture away I guess.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 10, 2022)

story said:


> Fucking hell.
> 
> This is just asking for trouble. If the peaceful protest and demonstration is disrespected so brazenly it will trigger further outrage.


This is simply blanking. I doubt even the King would approve!


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 10, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> This happened at night in a side street, and the car windscreen was almost certainly slightly tinted, because that's standard for modern cars.  So visibility was bad. So it's very easy for an officer, when seeing the suspect raise a phone or something, to mistake it for a gun. In these circumstances (failure to stop, ramming, officers with guns drawn, bad visibility, ANPR link to firearms) it's virtually suicidal to be picking up an object and moving your hands. Makes no difference what race you are. *You're begging to be shot.*


 no one deserves to shot.  This is not fucking america!

I'm finding the speculation on this thread really unpalatable. We weren't there and we don't know.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 10, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> no one deserves to shot.  This is not fucking america!



Americans deserve to be shot?


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

I was on Streatham Hill the afternoon after the shooting and without giving it much thought, started to take my normal route home via Kirkstall Gardens. I assumed I’d see some memorial flowers, maybe some people. The street was still cordoned off (don’t know why I thought it wouldn’t be) with three cops and a couple of cars. A small group of young men (maybe 8 or 10) were gathered at the corner of Kirkstall Gardens where the actual garden is. They clearly all knew each other well. Being a nosy bastard I went towards the police line and one of them  came to meet me. I asked how long they thought the street would be cordoned off. And other cop came over pretty swiftly ( I think this one must have had some training in community relations or something, he stepped in and the first one backed off).

Cop - We’ll have things back to normal as quickly as we can. We’re doing our job, there’s a lot to check. Things will be back to normal soon
Me -  Not for them (indicating the youngsters)
Cop - They probably won’t be here for very long
Me - They have every right to be here for as long as they need to be. This is obviously going to affect them deeply. This is a big deal
Cop - Yes. We know they are affected. We are keeping everyone safe
Me - Apparently not
Cop - …..
Me - This affects the entire community, not just people directly associated with the gang. People are angry. I’m angry
Cop - We are just doing our job….
Me - _biting my tongue and taking a step back_ If I walk down to  Kirkstall Road can I get along New Park Road from there?
Cop - No, New Park Road is closed at the end of this street. You‘ll have to go the other way
Me - _through gritted teeth and walking away_ Thanks for letting me know


The thing that made me really angry was the apparent assumption that I was annoyed at the inconvenience about the street being closed, about young Black people gathering in the street to mark the death of their friend.

As I walked back up Kirkstall Gardens I passed more young Black people walking down a couple holding hands and another young woman, I guess to join the vigil. They were carrying a candle and flowers. David Clapson none of the people I saw gathered or walking in to join them seemed to me to be anything like the gang runners I see in NPR. I hesitate to categorise people by the way they look but if forced I would say they looked like college students.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 10, 2022)

8ball said:


> Americans deserve to be shot?


She means we are supposed to be proud of having an unarmed police force. And yet we are drifting to a situation like America - shoot first, questions later.


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Erm:
> 
> 
> 
> Conjecture away I guess.



Wondering about something is not conjecture.


Conjecture, which is what you’re doing:
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 10, 2022)

8ball said:


> Americans deserve to be shot?


No!  No one deserves to be shot!  

I dont want uk police to follow americas gun happy - shoot first, ask after - fucked up gun culture.   This is not america, police are not routinely armed and no one is 'begging to be shot'.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 10, 2022)

CH1 said:


> She means we are supposed to be proud of having an unarmed police force. And yet we are drifting to a situation like America - shoot first, questions later.



It’s quite possible the police were quite amenable to the “questions” route.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 10, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> No!  No deserves to be shot!
> 
> I dont want uk police to follow americas gun happy - shoot first, ask after - fucked up gun culture.   This is not america, police are not routinely armed and no one is 'begging to be shot'.



Sorry, was just joshing cos it could be read that way.  

I don’t agree that no one deserves to be shot, but it’s a nice sentiment.


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> no one deserves to shot.  This is not fucking america!
> 
> I'm finding the speculation on this thread really unpalatable. We weren't there and we don't know.



I missed the “begging to be shot” line so thanks for highlighting it friendofdorothy .

_Begging to be shot_
What a vile thing to say.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 10, 2022)

story said:


> I missed the “begging to be shot” line so thanks for highlighting it friendofdorothy .
> 
> _Begging to be shot_
> What a vile thing to say.



I missed that too.

However, reading it back, this was said in the context of officers with guns drawn, and you’re trying to ram them with your car.

If I was spitballing ideas for how to “suicide by cop”, this would def make the shortlist.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 10, 2022)

story said:


> I was on Streatham Hill the afternoon after the shooting and without giving it much thought, started to take my normal route home via Kirkstall Gardens. I assumed I’d see some memorial flowers, maybe some people. The street was still cordoned off (don’t know why I thought it wouldn’t be) with three cops and a couple of cars. A small group of young men (maybe 8 or 10) were gathered at the corner of Kirkstall Gardens where the actual garden is. They clearly all knew each other well. Being a nosy bastard I went towards the police line and one of them  came to meet me. I asked how long they thought the street would be cordoned off. And other cop came over pretty swiftly ( I think this one must have had some training in community relations or something, he stepped in and the first one backed off).
> 
> Cop - We’ll have things back to normal as quickly as we can. We’re doing our job, there’s a lot to check. Things will be back to normal soon
> Me -  Not for them (indicating the youngsters)
> ...


This is what happened in Coldharbour Lane three years ago over the death of a 54 year old black man who was refused medical assistance by the police. The police kept Coldharbour Lane closed and diverted all buses for two whole days, yet is was them that did it.
Who do they thing they are kidding - and is it police policy now to punish the whole street if the Police kill someone in the street? Forget being kept in in an Irish convent school for stealing a pencil - this is Putin's Russia!








						Update: Brixton’s Coldharbour Lane remains closed after Saturday’s murder. Major bus disruption in the area
					

A large part of Coldharbour Lane in Brixton remains closed off after the tragic murder of a 54 year old man on Saturday evening. UPDATE 7pm Mon 1st July: the road has now been reopened.



					www.brixtonbuzz.com
				



PS The "murder" turned out to be Police negligence dressed up as a pensioner gangland killing.


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

I was at The Windmill last night and fell into conversation with some local people I don’t know. They told me that there had been a shooting on Elm Park Road the night before (so Thursday 8 Sept).

They were chilling at home and they heard the shot. The woman said “because I’m from Colombia I knew right away it was gunshot”. They went to the window immediately, and then outside. A man was lying in the street trying to grasp at the wound, which was in the back of his left shoulder. He was shouting and crying out in pain and telling his (presumaby gf) “Call an ambulance! I’m shot, call an ambulance!” She was standing over him in a crouch, in a state of panic shouting “I ain’t got no credit!” The pair telling me this said that by now others were coming out of their homes and trying to help by pressing on the wound etc, and they called the ambulance. They said they didn’t see anyone else in the street and wondered if he’d been shot from an open doorway, maybe as he was trying to leave the house. Said it happened on the stretch just by the EPT pub.

But I’m not finding any reports of this online.


ETA
I can’t imagine they’d made it up.


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

8ball said:


> I missed that too.
> 
> However, reading it back, this was said in the context of officers with guns drawn, and you’re trying to ram them with your car.
> 
> If I was spitballing ideas for how to “suicide by cop”, this would def make the shortlist.



It’s still a vile ugly hateful thing to say.


If it was attempted suicide by cop the correct phrase would be _hoping to be shot._


----------



## CH1 (Sep 10, 2022)

There is a thread regarding the Parliament/Scotland Yard demo here. Don't recognise the logo. Not SWP - perhaps AWL?


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

This Sky report from the day of the shooting. A witness who said they didn’t know anything was happen til they heard the shot. And the reporter saying that the car Chris Kaba was driving “moved towards” the cop obstructing his progress, not “rammed”.

Obvs, this may not be accurate.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 10, 2022)

Stand up to Racism has a lot of coverage of the demo today. Including speakers. Looks to me that the family fully supported the demo today.


----------



## l'Otters (Sep 10, 2022)

8ball said:


> Americans deserve to be shot?


Are you trying to be funny? It’s not the time or the place. Surely you know that.


----------



## l'Otters (Sep 10, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Yeah and I've got lived experience of fucking murderous drug gangs.



I’ve got lived experience of a murderous drug gang too, the one known as the metropolitan police.


----------



## l'Otters (Sep 10, 2022)

8ball said:


> Not sure how things go if that witness vanishes.


It doesn’t matter whether the witness existed or not, the point is to get the smearing out there quickly. Remember what happened with Rashan Charles?


----------



## pbsmooth (Sep 10, 2022)

l'Otters said:


> It doesn’t matter whether the witness existed or not, the point is to get the smearing out there quickly. Remember what happened with Rashan Charles?


What do you think happened, then? Talk me through it, as you seem sure the police were in the wrong.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 10, 2022)

Stormzy was there


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

This article in The Mirror is worth a read.

There is no mention of his conviction and prison term. I’m starting to wonder if that was misinformation. I did read it somewhere in a second hand report but can’t now find it.

Whole article C&P here, link below



> The statement read: “We are devastated; we need answers and we need accountability. We are worried that if Chris had not been black, he would have been arrested on Monday evening and not had his life cut short.”
> 
> They added that they had informed the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) of their “demand” saying: “we do not want any delay as has happened in other fatal shootings – otherwise we and the wider public can have no confidence that the police will be held to account.”
> 
> ...











						Family call for a "homicide investigation" after dad-to-be shot dead by officer
					

Chris Kaba, 24, a soon-to-be dad, was shot dead by armed police officers following a chase in Streatham, London, on Monday night - his family say they are 'worried' that if he had not been black, his life would not have been cut short




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

Telegraph story here but I’m not paying to read it.









						Drill rapper shot dead by police had been jailed for firearms offence
					

Chris Kaba was unarmed when he was shot dead, investigators have confirmed




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				







This says he was charged with “intent to cause fear of violence”.









						Canning Town gunman charged - East London News
					

GUNSHOTS HEARD in Butchers Road, Canning Town, in the early hours of 30th December led to a police hunt for the gunman. Now a man has been charged with possession of a firearm with intent to cause fear of violence. The man is Chris Kaba, 19, of Bowen Street, London SE26. He was charged on ...




					eastlondonnews.co.uk


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

MyLondon piece from a couple of days ago says Chris Kaba was “linked with previous alleged firearms incident”









						Chris Kaba's car was stopped after being 'linked to previous firearms incident'
					

Chris Kaba was not armed but was still killed after being shot by armed police




					www.mylondon.news
				







> The IOPC has revealed that Chris Kaba, 24, who was shot and killed by police while unarmed, was stopped in his car because it had been recognised in connection to a previous alleged firearms incident. A new statement from the IOPC, who are investigating Mr Kaba's death, confirmed today that no gun was found on his person.


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

I’ve just been out. The mood is very odd out there this evening.


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

BREAKING: Investigation into shooting of rapper Chris Kaba becomes a homicide probe - IOPC
					

THE investigation into the fatal shooting of Chris Kaba by the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) in Streatham Hill on Monday September 5 has become a homicide probe. A spokesman for the Independent Office of Police Conduct (IOPC) said: "Following our review of the evidence gathered so far, the...




					www.essexnewsandinvestigations.com
				







> *Yesterday, it emerged that Chris had previously been jailed for possession of a firearm.
> 
> 
> He was sentenced to four years in a young offenders institute in January 2019 after being convicted of possession of a firearm at Snaresbrook Crown Court.
> ...





> *He was 19 at the time of the incident. Police released images of another man (above) at the time and appealed for his whereabouts.
> 
> It had been said by mourners that the expectant father had no association to gang culture.
> 
> Friends said his previous conviction was not relevant to what happened to him this week.*




I think it’s significant that those who knew him state that he had no affiliation with the gang. Nor have the police said he was involved, and I would assume they would, if they could.


----------



## Dystopiary (Sep 10, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> What do you think happened, then? Talk me through it, as you seem sure the police were in the wrong.


IOPC:  We continue to ask that people avoid speculating about this incident out of respect for Mr Kaba's family and for everyone affected.


----------



## GarveyLives (Sep 10, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> Following their review of the _evidence_ (as opposed to stories circulated by the Metropolitan Police and its agents) gathered so far, the Independent Office for Police Conduct  has now launched a homicide investigation into the killing of the Late Chris Kaba:.
> 
> Chris Kaba: _Murder_ investigation launched into death of black rapper shot by police



Today's protest march in central London in support of the family of the Late Chris Kaba:







(Source: as stated in image)






(Source: as stated in image)






(Source: as stated in image)

​


----------



## pbsmooth (Sep 10, 2022)

story said:


> BREAKING: Investigation into shooting of rapper Chris Kaba becomes a homicide probe - IOPC
> 
> 
> THE investigation into the fatal shooting of Chris Kaba by the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) in Streatham Hill on Monday September 5 has become a homicide probe. A spokesman for the Independent Office of Police Conduct (IOPC) said: "Following our review of the evidence gathered so far, the...
> ...


Really 🙄
I thought you were talking earlier like you knew the details. Sounds like you don't know who he was? He got out of jail 6 months ago.


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Really 🙄
> I thought you were talking earlier like you knew the details. Sounds like you don't know who he was? He got out of jail 6 months ago.




I read the initial reports on the day. They said he’d recently been released from prison, I assumed they were correct because I read them in a few different places. I also assumed that because he was said to be associated with the 67 that his conviction was associated with the several convictions that happened back in 2019 (? I think, but I’ll check).

It turns out that that was a mistake on my part.

As the story has developed I wanted to know more accurate information and went looking for it, but since the internet is now talking mainly about an unarmed man being shot in the street by a policeman, the awful grief of his parents, and the IOPC investigation, information about his conviction dropped out of the top layer of Google hits. Not wanting to rely only on my memory of things I read on the day following the incident I dug a little deeper, and came up with these reports. 

It looks like he was charged with offences that happened in Canning Town but I still cant find a primary source for  anything concrete about his conviction or prison time and release. If you have one it would be helpful to have it posted here.

So I read something that I now can’t reference, wanted to check my information, and went back to do that, correcting a mistake in the process.

What part of this do you find problematic ?


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

Yes it was in July 2019. Chris Kaba was not one of those involved.









						16 sentenced after south-east England 'county lines' drug sting
					

Fifteen men and one woman were involved in operation to transport and sell class A drugs




					www.theguardian.com
				






For the avoidance of doubt (although it hardly needs saying) I think county lines operations are foul and evil and should be stopped wherever and as swiftly as possIblue.


----------



## pbsmooth (Sep 10, 2022)

I'm not getting my information from newspaper reports... Never mind, this thread is a mess so I'm opting out for now.


----------



## story (Sep 10, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> I'm not getting my information from newspaper reports... Never mind, this thread is a mess so I'm opting out for now.




Where are you getting it from?

Presumably you mean from local people? Are you implying that you knew him or his friends?

Do you mean you’re not looking at the media at all?

I‘m also getting some chat from non media sources but I’m not relying on that as factual. It’s underpinning some of my reactions and opinions  but I’m not quoting any of it,




Since you seem to be saying that you have an ear on the street, you are obviously aware that the gang 67 and the music makers associated with them are not the same people. The people running county lines and using guns etc are not the ones actively making music and putting their faces on YouTube. Of course there are connections but it’s stupid to assume or to imply they’re the same as each other.
Chris Kaba was a rapper with the 67 Drill group, which is anyway a loose conglomeration of people, not one static set of people. The Drill group is associated with the gang and vice versa, but they are not the same thing, they’re not the same people.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 10, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> I'm not getting my information from newspaper reports... Never mind, this thread is a mess so I'm opting out for now.



In which case I'm curious to where you do.

This post of yours is quite categorical he was a gang member and got what he deserved

Post in thread 'Chris Kaba, 24, shot dead by police in Streatham, Mon 5th Sept 2022' Chris Kaba, 24, shot dead by police in Streatham, Mon 5th Sept 2022


----------



## 8ball (Sep 10, 2022)

l'Otters said:


> Are you trying to be funny? It’s not the time or the place. Surely you know that.



Self-righteousness is no respecter of timing.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 11, 2022)

story said:


> Chris Kaba was a rapper with the 67 Drill group, which is anyway a loose conglomeration of people, not one static set of people. The Drill group is associated with the gang and vice versa, but they are not the same thing, they’re not the same people.



Late night thoughts #112: I’m pretty amazed that “rapper” doesn’t feature in the top most dangerous occupations.  
We must be losing a lot of paramedics and firefighters.


----------



## pbsmooth (Sep 11, 2022)

story said:


> Where are you getting it from?
> 
> Presumably you mean from local people? Are you implying that you knew him or his friends?
> 
> ...


I got it from his own social media, he posted when he got out 😬


----------



## CH1 (Sep 11, 2022)

Another view of the demo at Scotland Yard


----------



## teqniq (Sep 11, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> I got it from his own social media, he posted when he got out 😬


Link please.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> another fallen gang member and professional criminal. live by the sword...


Fuck me you're a shit and no mistake


----------



## emanymton (Sep 11, 2022)

Can I say that it is entirely possible for the police to be completey in the wrong when they shoot an unarmed black man and for that man to be a piece of shit. 

I don't know the truth of either in this case, but I'm happy to accept both can be true, some people seem to think it can only be one or the other.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

emanymton said:


> Can I say that it is entirely possible for the police to be completey in the wrong when they shoot an unarmed black man and for that man to be a piece of shit.
> 
> I don't know the truth of either in this case, but I'm happy to accept both can be true, some people seem to think it can only be one or the other.


You can say that, yes


----------



## story (Sep 11, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> I got it from his own social media, he posted when he got out 😬




You’re a Facebook friend? Connected on his Twitter feed? Following him in Insta? Snapchat?
So you knew him IRL and you’re saying he deserved to “die by the sword”.


----------



## pbsmooth (Sep 11, 2022)

.


----------



## story (Sep 11, 2022)

Well at least there’s this









						Sky News Apologises After Reporting That Chris Kaba Protesters Were Queen Elizabeth Mourners
					

The 24-year-old was fatally shot by a police officer on Monday night.




					www.huffingtonpost.co.uk


----------



## story (Sep 11, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> .





pbsmooth said:


> .




The reddit page that chats about U.K. Drill. 

Okay.


----------



## pbsmooth (Sep 11, 2022)

I mean if you're somehow disputing that then I don't really know where to go. You seem to have made your mind up without knowing lots of basic details. I'm out.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 11, 2022)

Seems like it may well have been a targeted killing to me. Just one shot. Could be that the police very much wanted Chris Kaba dead for reasons which may never be entirely clear.


----------



## story (Sep 11, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> I mean if you're somehow disputing that then I don't really know where to go. You seem to have made your mind up without knowing lots of basic details. I'm out.




Not disputing it no.
What an odd paranoid conclusion


----------



## story (Sep 11, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> I mean if you're somehow disputing that then I don't really know where to go. You seem to have made your mind up without knowing lots of basic details. I'm out.




I’m taking issue with your own “made your mind up” stuff. I fundamentally disagree with your apparent position that the police have the right and duty to shoot people in the street.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> I mean if you're somehow disputing that then I don't really know where to go. You seem to have made your mind up without knowing lots of basic details. I'm out.


I'm not sure you were ever in


----------



## pbsmooth (Sep 11, 2022)

Yeah because I said that 🙄
Please stop quoting and mentioning me. I'd rather not block you.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Seems like it may well have been a targeted killing to me. Just one shot. Could be that the police very much wanted Chris Kaba dead for reasons which may never be entirely clear.



If he'd been sprayed with bullets no doubt people would be saying it was a targeted killing because otherwise they would only have shot him as much as necessary.

The way it is supposed to work with policing shooting people is that they check after each shot whether the deadly threat has been eliminated, and if it has then they stop firing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> He was armed with a vehicle. Plenty of people on here claim the drivers of "death machines" get off lightly.
> 
> If he'd been sprayed with bullets no doubt people would be saying it was a targeted killing because otherwise they would only have shot him as much as necessary.
> 
> The way it is supposed to work with policing shooting people is that they check after each shot whether the deadly threat has been eliminated, and if it has then they stop firing.


I'm hoping you can adduce some proper evidence that he was using the car as a weapon when he was killed


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Yeah because I said that 🙄
> Please stop quoting and mentioning me. I'd rather not block you.


If you're going to object to being quoted or mentioned I don't think urban's quite the place for you


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm hoping you can adduce some proper evidence that he was using the car as a weapon when he was killed



I didn't say that, blame the saved drafts function


----------



## teqniq (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> He was armed with a vehicle. Plenty of people on here claim the drivers of "death machines" get off lightly.
> 
> If he'd been sprayed with bullets no doubt people would be saying it was a targeted killing because otherwise they would only have shot him as much as necessary.
> 
> The way it is supposed to work with policing shooting people is that they check after each shot whether the deadly threat has been eliminated, and if it has then they stop firing.


So let me get this right. You're saying that because he was driving a 'death machine' he deserved to die. Is that right? Jean Charles De Menezes was shot 7 times at close range by 2 firearms officers, this on the other hand would appear to have been very clinical so your claim that 'the way it is supposed to work with policing shooting people' falls over right there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I didn't say that, blame the saved drafts function


You did say it, I quoted it


----------



## l'Otters (Sep 11, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> What do you think happened, then? Talk me through it, as you seem sure the police were in the wrong.


I know the police have form for smearing their murder victims to make it look like their cold blooded murder was justified / necessary, with damage done / objective achieved by the time their stories have been proven to be lies. 

We will see if anything happened differently this time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

l'Otters said:


> I know the police have form for smearing their murder victims to make it look like their cold blooded murder was justified / necessary, with damage done / objective achieved by the time their stories have been proven to be lies.
> 
> We will see if anything happened differently this time.


Spoiler alert 



Spoiler



it'll be lies again


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

teqniq said:


> So let me get this right. You're saying that because he was driving a 'death machine' he deserved to die. Is that right? Jean Charles De Menezes was shot 7 times at close range by 2 firearms officers, this on the other hand would appear to have been very clinical so your claim that 'the way it is supposed to work with policing shooting people' falls over right there.



Nope.

If he was presenting a deadly threat to someone that getting shot may have been the safest way to eliminate that deadly threat. 

But that's speculation. Perhaps the police officer fired by mistake. Perhaps he just thought he'd have a pop because he hates black Audi drivers. We don't the circumstances yet. As to Jean Charles De Menezes he was held to be a suicide bomber so my claim doesn't fall apart at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Nope.
> 
> If he was presenting a deadly threat to someone that getting shot may have been the safest way to eliminate that deadly threat.
> 
> But that's speculation. Perhaps the police officer fired by mistake. Perhaps he just thought he'd have a pop because he hates black Audi drivers. We don't the circumstances yet. As to Jean Charles De Menezes he was held to be a suicide bomber so my claim doesn't fall apart at all.


And John shorthouse? How do you justify his death?


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> And John shorthouse? How do you justify his death?



I'm not justifying anyone's death, just stating that because there might be circumstances where someone being shot by the police is a better outcome than that person killing one or more people, that doesn't mean that everyone who is shot by police "deserved" to die. Not rocket science I'd have thought.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Nope.


Nope to what?


> platinumsage said:
> 
> 
> > If he was presenting a deadly threat to someone that getting shot may have been the safest way to eliminate that deadly threat.
> ...


The entirety of you previous post regarding police procedure:


> The way it is supposed to work with policing shooting people is that they check after each shot whether the deadly threat has been eliminated, and if it has then they stop firing.


So shooting someone 7 times (6 in the head and 1 in his arm) does not look to me like checking after each shot to ensure the threat had been neutralised suspected suicide bomber or not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I'm not justifying anyone's death, just stating that because there might be circumstances where someone being shot by the police is a better outcome than that person killing one or more people, that doesn't mean that everyone who is shot by police "deserved" to die. Not rocket science I'd have thought.


Jcdm wasn't going to kill anyone. John shorthouse wasn't going to kill anyone. Diarmuid o Neill was complying with police orders when he was killed. Harry Stanley was never given a chance, nor was mark duggan. The only really justified killings I can recall are the jihadis who were shot some years back in the middle of their attacks. And they were really attacking people. Chris Kaba? Pursued by the police on specious grounds and shot down like a dog with no attempt made to resolve the situation peacefully.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 11, 2022)

story said:


> Looks like you’re trying to justify your prejudices to me.



Why say something as obnoxious and horrible as that when I posted this?



> I know that young black men are right to be scared of the police. If they are stopped they might well be fitted up and/or beaten up and/or die in custody.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 11, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> no one deserves to shot.  This is not fucking america!
> 
> I'm finding the speculation on this thread really unpalatable. We weren't there and we don't know.


It's an expression, meaning taking a very high risk.  Obviously they don't deserve to be shot. Don't direct your anger at me please.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 11, 2022)

story said:


> David Clapson none of the people I saw gathered or walking in to join them seemed to me to be anything like the gang runners I see in NPR.


Why is this directed at me please?


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 11, 2022)

editor, I think this thread might not be indexed, or something. It doesn't come up when I click on watched threads or threads with my posts in. And it's not visible in the Brixton forum. Not for me anyway.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> If he'd been sprayed with bullets no doubt people would be saying it was a targeted killing because otherwise they would only have shot him as much as necessary.
> 
> The way it is supposed to work with policing shooting people is that they check after each shot whether the deadly threat has been eliminated, and if it has then they stop firing.



Really?  That sounds like no use at all in a terrorist incident.  Even in the case on the bridge they shot twice in quick succession iirc, and that was practically point blank range.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> If you're going to object to being quoted or mentioned I don't think urban's quite the place for you



Editor seems to be on more "mutual ignore pacts" than possibly anyone else on the site, so not sure that's true on balance.


----------



## editor (Sep 11, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> editor, I think this thread might not be indexed, or something. It doesn't come up when I click on watched threads or threads with my posts in. And it's not visible in the Brixton forum. Not for me anyway.


Do you have the opening poster on ignore?

It's definitely coming up:


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

8ball said:


> Really?  That sounds like no use at all in a terrorist incident.  Even in the case on the bridge they shot twice in quick succession iirc, and that was practically point blank range.



That why I wasn't referring to the exceptional circumstances (regarding police firearm use) of an evident attack by suicidal terrorists, which no one is claiming this was.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> That why I wasn't referring to the exceptional circumstances (regarding police firearm use) of an evident attack by suicidal terrorists, which no one is claiming this was.



I am really undercaffeinated at the moment.   In the USA they fire until certain the threat is no longer apparent (as seen on so many videos).  I wasn't aware of any rule about checking after each bullet (which sounds like a weird and dangerous rule), but even so, a single bullet does not imply a targeted assassination.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

8ball said:


> I am really undercaffeinated at the moment.   In the USA they fire until certain the threat is no longer apparent (as seen on so many videos).  I wasn't aware of any rule about checking after each bullet (which sounds like a weird and dangerous rule), but even so, a single bullet does not imply a targeted assassination.


Does not necessarily imply... for me it's the chase initiated when ck wasn't doing anything wrong driving plus the presence of firearms officers plus the apparent refusal to arrest him plus the single shot which suggests to me it was a) targeted and b) a murder


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Does not necessarily imply... for me it's the chase initiated when ck wasn't doing anything wrong driving plus the presence of firearms officers plus the apparent refusal to arrest him plus the single shot which suggests to me it was a) targeted and b) a murder



Do you have some kind of access to a special report on what happened in order to conclude that he "wasn't doing anything wrong"? Do you know, for example, that he did not fail to to stop the vehicle when directed to do so by the police?


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Do you have some kind of access to a special report on what happened in order to conclude that he "wasn't doing anything wrong"? Do you know, for example, that he did not fail to to stop the vehicle when directed to do so by the police?


I know you’re a contrarian for the sake of it on here but I’d give it a rest if I were you - you’re obviously fairly clueless about the Met.


----------



## baldrick (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Do you have some kind of access to a special report on what happened in order to conclude that he "wasn't doing anything wrong"? Do you know, for example, that he did not fail to to stop the vehicle when directed to do so by the police?


I'm sure this isn't your implication but it's not ok that failure to stop your car results in being shot by the police.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

edcraw said:


> I know you’re a contrarian for the sake of it on here but I’d give it a rest if I were you - you’re obviously fairly clueless about the Met.



I'm not clueless at all, I'm just not jumping to any conclusion, seems a reasonable position to take. Maybe he was murdered, but maybe not.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 11, 2022)

This is the crux of the problem- that they’ve been incompetent or malicious, and utterly mendacious after the fact so many times that everyone assumes they’re up to something dodgy.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I'm not clueless at all, I'm just not jumping to any conclusion, seems a reasonable position to take. Maybe he was murdered, but maybe not.


You tried to use this killing as joke on another thread and now you’re speculating about how the police could’ve been justified - your attitude stinks.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

baldrick said:


> I'm sure this isn't your implication but it's not ok that failure to stop your car results in being shot by the police.



Sure but Pickmans is citing Kaba not doing "anything wrong" as a reason why this is a targeted execution. Given that he seems to have done something wrong, enough wrong to result in a chase which the police would try to end, then that reasoning fails.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

8ball said:


> This is the crux of the problem- that they’ve been incompetent or malicious, and utterly mendacious after the fact so many times that everyone assumes they’re up to something dodgy.



Yet when people assume Kaba was up to something dodgy due to his record, that's apparently an outrage. 🤷


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Given that he seems to have done something wrong, enough wrong to result in a chase which the police would try to end, then that reasoning fails.


Do you have access to some special report that states this?


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Do you have access to some special report that states this?



Lots of reliable news sources state that he was the driver and was being chased by the police. Sure they could all be wrong, but it seems unreasonable to conclude that they're definitely all wrong based on no evidence at all.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Lots of reliable news sources state that he was the driver and was being chased by the police. Sure they could all be wrong, but it seems unreasonable to conclude that they're definitely all wrong based on no evidence at all.


You said he’d done something wrong to mean the police was chasing him. Where have you got that from?


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

edcraw said:


> You said he’d done something wrong to mean the police was chasing him. Where have you got that from?



If he was being chased by the police then he failed to stop for the police, which is an offence.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> If he was being chased by the police then he failed to stop for the police, which is an offence.


So you’re saying he failed to stop so was being chased? How do you know this? This isn’t even speculation you’re stating facts.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)




----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

Struggling to find much evidence for any chase as well. Referred to very briefly here but literally no details:









						Man shot dead by police in south London 'was set to become father'
					

Chris Kaba, who was in his 20s, died in hospital in the early hours of Tuesday morning after being shot at about 10pm on Monday night in Streatham Hill.




					news.sky.com
				




Maybe you have other sources.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Do you have some kind of access to a special report on what happened in order to conclude that he "wasn't doing anything wrong"? Do you know, for example, that he did not fail to to stop the vehicle when directed to do so by the police?


You're a dishonest little shit, leaving out the important word 'driving'. He was not doing anything wrong driving.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You're a dishonest little shit, leaving out the important word 'driving'. He was not doing anything wrong driving.



Fine, "wasn't doing anything wrong driving" - but that seems unlikely, if he was being pursued as so many sources state, because drivers who are driving are required to stop immediately if directed to do so by the police. 

How have you concluded he was "doing nothing wrong driving"?


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Struggling to find much evidence for any chase as well. Referred to very briefly here but literally no details:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Chris Kaba, 24, died after a police pursuit of a car ended in Streatham Hill on Monday night." 








						Chris Kaba: No firearm found at scene of fatal police shooting
					

Chris Kaba was shot dead following a police pursuit which ended in south London on Monday night.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




"A man shot dead by police after a chase in south London has been named locally as 23-year-old rapper Chris Kaba."








						Chris Kaba: Man shot dead by police in Streatham named
					

Chris Kaba was shot after police pursued what they described as a "suspect vehicle" in south London.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




etc...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Fine, "wasn't doing anything wrong driving" - but that seems unlikely, if he was being pursued as so many sources state, because drivers who are driving are required to stop immediately if directed to do so by the police.
> 
> How have you concluded he was "doing nothing wrong driving"?


Go back and read the fucking post again you stupid stupid twat


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Go back and read the fucking post again you stupid stupid twat



If it's barely coherent that's on you. Care to clarify why you think his killing was a) targeted and b) a murder?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> If it's barely coherent that's on you. Care to clarify why you think his killing was a) targeted and b) a murder?


It's not barely coherent. I said - and you ignored - that when the chase was initiated he wasn't doing anything wrong driving. Now you're asking why I'm sure he wasn't doing anything wrong driving after the start of the chase based on your fucking extraordinary inability to comprehend a simple sentence.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 11, 2022)

editor said:


> Do you have the opening poster on ignore?
> 
> It's definitely coming up:
> 
> View attachment 342264


No. I can't see it at all unless I do a search.

edit: Hang on, yes I did have him on ignore


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not barely coherent. I said - and you ignored - that when the chase was initiated he wasn't doing anything wrong driving. Now you're asking why I'm sure he wasn't doing anything wrong driving after the start of the chase based on your fucking extraordinary inability to comprehend a simple sentence.



How is a police chase initiated if the driver doesn't do something wrong beforehand while driving, namely failing to stop? 

Or by "he wasn't doing anything wrong driving", which is kinda weird grammar let's be honest,  do you mean something else, like "he was legally entitled to drive that day" or some other such thing?

I'd still like to know why you think his killing was a) targeted and b) a murder


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> How is a police chase initiated if the driver doesn't do something wrong beforehand while driving, namely failing to stop?
> 
> Or by "he wasn't doing anything wrong driving", which is kinda weird grammar let's be honest,  do you mean something else, like "he was legally entitled to drive that day" or some other such thing?


I'll tell you how, when a car trips some anpr thing and a cop car is sent in pursuit. Or as you term it chase


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

Just thinking about this photo. Seems strange for the police car to be in front facing the car during a chase. The cars just turned into Lexton Gardens and met that police car. Seems unlikely for that to happen if there was much of a chase & there’s been no details of it like when & where it started.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I'll tell you how, when a car trips some anpr thing and a cop car is sent in pursuit. Or as you term it chase



A pursuit requires two to tango, you seem to be referring to an interception, which is not what the sources above refer to it as.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> How is a police chase initiated if the driver doesn't do something wrong beforehand while driving, namely failing to stop?
> 
> Or by "he wasn't doing anything wrong driving", which is kinda weird grammar let's be honest,  do you mean something else, like "he was legally entitled to drive that day" or some other such thing?
> 
> I'd still like to know why you think his killing was a) targeted and b) a murder


You’re speculating that he failed to stop. Police claimed they shouted “armed police” to JCDM


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 11, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> It's an expression, meaning taking a very high risk.  Obviously they don't deserve to be shot. Don't direct your anger at me please.


Not obvious at all.  It's was very unpleasant expression and I am annoyed at you expressing it that way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> A pursuit requires two to tango


No it doesn't


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> A pursuit requires two to tango, you seem to be referring to an interception, which is not what the sources above refer to it as.


The photo certainly looks more like an interception than a chase. Just because the police have briefed papers that there was a chase certainly doesn’t mean there was one. They haven’t official said so as far as I know.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

edcraw said:


> You’re speculating that he failed to stop. Police claimed they shouted “armed police” to JCDM



As I said, I'm going by multiple sources referring to a "chase" or a "pursuit". This is evidence he did something wrong, but of course not proof. Yes the sources could be incorrect - he might not have been a party to a police pursuit, and so might not have committed the offence of failing to stop. However to assert that he was the subject of a targeted murder and "did nothing wrong driving" would surely require evidence that at the minimum shows that to be the case.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Just thinking about this photo. Seems strange for the police car to be in front facing the car during a chase. The cars just turned into Lexton Gardens and met that police car. Seems unlikely for that to happen if there was much of a chase & there’s been no details of it like when & where it started.
> 
> View attachment 342272



Totally normal for multiple police cars involved in pursing a vehicle not to all queue up behind it.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> As I said, I'm going by multiple sources referring to a "chase" or a "pursuit". This is evidence he did something wrong, but of course not proof. Yes the sources could be incorrect - he might not have been a party to a police pursuit, and so might not have committed the offence of failing to stop. However to assert that he was the subject of a targeted murder and "did nothing wrong driving" would surely require evidence that at the minimum shows that to be the case.


The police have said it was sparked by the ANPR so certainly doesn’t mean he did anything wrong. You’re speculating that we was ever asked to stop.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

edcraw said:


> The police have said it was sparked by the ANPR so certainly doesn’t mean he did anything wrong. You’re speculating that we was ever asked to stop.



No, I'm stating that it's not reasonable on the evidence available to conclude that he wasn't asked to stop.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Totally normal for multiple police cars involved in pursing a vehicle not to all queue up behind it.


They wouldn’t have know he would have turned into that road. If he was going down New Park Road, which is very long, would have made more sense to come from the opposite direction on their. They may have been reasons for the car using there but seems unlikely and looks more like an interception.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> No, I'm stating that it's not reasonable on the evidence available to conclude that wasn't asked to stop.


Not is it reasonable to conclude that he was which you are stating as a fact.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 11, 2022)

Read more books. Then you might be familiar with everyday expressions.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 11, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Not is it reasonable to conclude that he was which you are stating as a fact.



Pickmans is claiming that this was was a) targeted and b) a murder, apparently based on the fact that he wasn't asked to stop, and therefore "did nothing wrong driving". I don't need to conclude that he was asked to stop, just that in the absence of further evidence there was a reasonable chance of him being asked to do so, in order show Pickman's contentions to be fatuous.

Again it's up to Pickmans if he wants to further explain how this was a) targeted and b) a murder.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

The was no chase with Mark Dugan - seriously suspect it was the same here.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 11, 2022)

If there was no chase it could probably be proven with video evidence from all sorts of cameras, plus the GPS trackers fitted to many police cars, and the GPS in all the officers' phones. (There'd probably be 9 officers, because armed reponse vehicles usually work in threes. )

Edit: and the police control room cooperates with chases. Senior officers have to be notified of some chases. I would think that three armed reponse vehicles chasing a vehicle with a firearms ANPR tag is something that the senior officer in the control room would be informed of immediately. Plus the senior officer is supposed to give permission for ramming, if circumstances permit. So you'd have to get a very large number of officers, including at least one inspector, to tell the same lie, if you want to concoct a chase.

Another edit: the police cars have dashcams! Of course they do. The IOPC is "reviewing a large amount of footage including from body worn video, police car dashcams, police helicopter and CCTV"

Safe to say that this notion of a faked chase is yet more epic bullshit. Statement from IOPC Director General Michael Lockwood regarding fatal police shooting in Lambeth | Independent Office for Police Conduct


----------



## edcraw (Sep 11, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> If there was no chase it could probably be proven with video evidence from all sorts of cameras, plus the GPS trackers fitted to many police cars, and the GPS in the officers' phones.


Yes - I’m sure they know whether there was one or not but we’re not going to find out for quite a while. The fact there’s been no details released of one makes it look unlikely there was tbh.


----------



## editor (Sep 11, 2022)

Awful lot of speculation going on in this thread...


----------



## Dystopiary (Sep 11, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Just because the police have briefed papers that there was a chase certainly doesn’t mean there was one.


This is a big part of the problem. Police brief the papers then a lot of people will take is as a given. Don't think this can be emphasised enough tbh.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 11, 2022)

There'll be an inquest. If the Met are lying, barristers will ferret it out.


edcraw said:


> The fact there’s been no details released of one makes it look unlikely there was tb


That's epic bullshit! Back on ignore for you!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> There'll be an inquest. If the Met are lying, barristers will ferret it out.


the met are as ever economical with the truth


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> If there was no chase it could probably be proven with video evidence from all sorts of cameras, plus the GPS trackers fitted to many police cars, and the GPS in all the officers' phones. (There'd probably be 9 officers, because armed reponse vehicles usually work in threes. )
> 
> Edit: and the police control room cooperates with chases. Senior officers have to be notified of some chases. I would think that three armed reponse vehicles chasing a vehicle with a firearms APR tag is something that the senior officer in the control room would be informed of immediately. Plus the senior officer is supposed to give permission for ramming, if circumstances permit. So you'd have to get a very large number of officers, including at least one inspector, to tell the same lie, if you want to concoct a chase.
> 
> ...


have you heard of orgreave?


----------



## GarveyLives (Sep 11, 2022)

Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP and Harriet Harman MP demand immediate suspension of officer who shot Chris Kaba


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 11, 2022)

It seems unbalanced that a homicide investigation has been opened by the IOPC but the officer hasn't been suspended. The Met has said that a senior officer will carefully consider the officer's work status. The Met is always so slow and obstinate in these situations. They make everything even worse than it needs to be.


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 11, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> It seems unbalanced that a homicide investigation has been opened by the IOPC but the officer hasn't been suspended. The Met has said that a senior officer will carefully consider the officer's work status. The Met is always so slow and obstinate in these situations. They make everything even worse than it needs to be.


No more surprising than GarveyLives posting up content and not actually saying what he/she has to say about that content. Maybe for once the board member could engage instead of using the site as his Facebook news feed?

Still, regardless of the context there's clearly still a massive issue going on here that means someone wasn't actually arrested and now lays on the slab. We've got gangs up here but in this sort of situation the young lad would be doing bird not chilling on ice.

Our Metropolis needs to sort itself out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> No more surprising than GarveyLives posting up content and not actually saying what he/she has to say about that content. Maybe for once the board member could engage instead of using the site as his Facebook news feed?
> 
> Still, regardless of the context there's clearly still a massive issue going on here that means someone wasn't actually arrested and now lays on the slab. We've got gangs up here but in this sort of situation the young lad would be doing bird not chilling on ice.
> 
> Our Metropolis needs to sort itself out.



Disband the mps


----------



## 8ball (Sep 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Disband the mps



Do you have a system of warlords in mind?  Or martial law?  Or maybe a non-hierarchical collective of radical knitting circles?

Not that all of those are automatically worse..


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

8ball said:


> Do you have a system of warlords in mind?  Or martial law?  Or maybe a non-hierarchical collective of radical knitting circles?
> 
> Not that all of those are automatically worse..


I'm calling for the disbanding of a police force. No doubt there is a better way for the prevention and detection of crime in London, the people doing the job atm are neither preventing nor detecting much in the way of crime and it's a rare week where you don't find out several cops charged with the most egregious crimes


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 11, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP and Harriet Harman MP demand immediate suspension of officer who shot Chris Kaba



Helen Hayes is my MP

Unlike Bell Ribeiro Addy she isn't on left of party. More soft left.

It's unusual for two MPs to do a joint statement.

Correct me If I'm wrong but this death occurred on Bell constituency.

Normally MPs don't comment on what happens on another patch.

To my mind this indicates level of local public feeling on this death

Whilst not being in the Left of party I've always found Helen Hayes a good constituency MP. And not afraid of taking a firm line on issues that her constituents are concerned about.

She took hard line on Met about the avoidable death on a local black man on CHL for example.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm calling for the disbanding of a police force. No doubt there is a better way for the prevention and detection of crime in London, the people doing the job atm are neither preventing nor detecting much in the way of crime and it's a rare week where you don't find out several cops charged with the most egregious crimes



I’m sure it will be fine.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

8ball said:


> I’m sure it will be fine.


Yeh and one thing to help with that is you'll be having nothing to do with it


----------



## 8ball (Sep 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh and one thing to help with that is you'll be having nothing to do with it



Just how much booze have you had on a school night?


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 11, 2022)

Given what we know, or think we know, from the papers, it looks very much like murder. I wonder if the officer knew who he was shooting? Kaba wasn't the registered owner of the car...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2022)

8ball said:


> Just how much booze have you had on a school night?


As much as I do any other night


----------



## 8ball (Sep 11, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Given what we know, or think we know, from the papers, it looks very much like murder. I wonder if the officer knew who he was shooting? Kaba wasn't the registered owner of the car...



Ah, organised hit on the registered owner gone wrong?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Pickmans is claiming that this was was a) targeted and b) a murder, apparently based on the fact that he wasn't asked to stop, and therefore "did nothing wrong driving". I don't need to conclude that he was asked to stop, just that in the absence of further evidence there was a reasonable chance of him being asked to do so, in order show Pickman's contentions to be fatuous.
> 
> Again it's up to Pickmans if he wants to further explain how this was a) targeted and b) a murder.


I have. You just haven't read it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2022)

Now there's reports of a "tactical contact" very hard  to see how this wasn't targeted


----------



## 8ball (Sep 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Now there's reports of a "tactical contact" very hard  to see how this wasn't targeted



Well, it’s targeted when you box someone in who is trying to run.
Not much use boxing in any old random car.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2022)

8ball said:


> Well, it’s targeted when you box someone in who is trying to run.
> Not much use boxing in any old random car.


the voice of experience


----------



## 8ball (Sep 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> the voice of experience



Yes, officer.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 12, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> It seems unbalanced that a homicide investigation has been opened by the IOPC but the officer hasn't been suspended. The Met has said that a senior officer will carefully consider the officer's work status. The Met is always so slow and obstinate in these situations. They make everything even worse than it needs to be.



He was suspended immediately from operational duties, as invariably happens in such situations.

I’m not sure how suspending him entirely i.e. giving him indefinite holiday, would be more conducive to the investigation than having him in the office, or would benefit anyone at all in any way. Calling for it is an easy way for an MP to get brownie points I guess.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 12, 2022)

The family have been calling for the officer to be suspended. Bell Ribeiro Addy MP  is doing her job as an MP in requesting the same. It's not about "brownie" points.

My MP is Helen Hayes. I'm glad she has called for the same in the joint statement. I don't regard her action as being about brownie points. 

Given the level of feeling about this in local area it was right decision.


----------



## BusLanes (Sep 12, 2022)

story said:


> I was at The Windmill last night and fell into conversation with some local people I don’t know. They told me that there had been a shooting on Elm Park Road the night before (so Thursday 8 Sept).
> 
> They were chilling at home and they heard the shot. The woman said “because I’m from Colombia I knew right away it was gunshot”. They went to the window immediately, and then outside. A man was lying in the street trying to grasp at the wound, which was in the back of his left shoulder. He was shouting and crying out in pain and telling his (presumaby gf) “Call an ambulance! I’m shot, call an ambulance!” She was standing over him in a crouch, in a state of panic shouting “I ain’t got no credit!” The pair telling me this said that by now others were coming out of their homes and trying to help by pressing on the wound etc, and they called the ambulance. They said they didn’t see anyone else in the street and wondered if he’d been shot from an open doorway, maybe as he was trying to leave the house. Said it happened on the stretch just by the EPT pub.
> 
> ...




According to a WhatsApp message I saw Ostade Road was cordoned off on the 9rh


----------



## edcraw (Sep 12, 2022)

The police officer’s been suspended.









						Met police suspend officer involved in fatal shooting of Chris Kaba
					

Suspension comes a week after death of unarmed 24-year-old in south London




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2022)

edcraw said:


> The police officer’s been suspended.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You wait, if the cops try and take any actual sanctions against him all the other gun cops will threaten to go on strike, like they have in the past


----------



## story (Sep 12, 2022)

Briefly cos I'm out elsewhere. Not read back to see if this has already been posted.


There's a vigil being held at Kirkstall Gardens this evening.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 12, 2022)

Officer suspended Met police suspend officer involved in fatal shooting of Chris Kaba


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 12, 2022)

.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 12, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> The family have been calling for the officer to be suspended. Bell Ribeiro Addy MP  is doing her job as an MP in requesting the same. It's not about "brownie" points.
> 
> My MP is Helen Hayes. I'm glad she has called for the same in the joint statement. I don't regard her action as being about brownie points.
> 
> Given the level of feeling about this in local area it was right decision.


Good action from both MPs imo - believe Helen Hayes is MP for where the family leaves. Neither would be doing this for ‘brownie points’ instead they are representing their constituencies.

Bell is putting the correct pressure on the Met & IOPC here:


----------



## GarveyLives (Sep 12, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP and Harriet Harman MP demand immediate suspension of officer who shot Chris Kaba




_"*Update following police shooting in Lambeth*

Assistant Commissioner Amanda Pearson said: “Following the death of Chris Kaba, *the firearms officer involved has been suspended from duty*.

“This decision has been reached following careful consideration of a number of factors, including the significant impact on public confidence, and in light of the Independent Office for Police Conduct announcing a homicide investigation.

“Our thoughts and sympathies remain with Mr Kaba’s family and friends. We understand how concerned communities are, particularly Black communities, and thank those who are working closely with our local officers.

“We are actively supporting the IOPC investigation and would ask those with information that could be useful in establishing what happened to contact the IOPC directly to maintain the independence of their investigation.

“The decision to suspend the officer does not determine the outcome of the IOPC investigation. Firearms officers serve to protect the public and know that on the rare occasions when they discharge their weapons, they will face intense scrutiny. I know this development will have a significant impact on the officer and colleagues ...”_

(Source: Metropolitan Police (in special measures), 7.30 p.m. today)

It is almost unbelievable that it has taken the Metropolitan Police (in special measures) seven days from the killing of the Late Chris Kaba, calls from Mr Kaba's family, a large public demonstration outside its own headquarters and the intervention of members of parliament to take this inevitable action.   _Almost_.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 12, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Good action from both MPs imo - believe Helen Hayes is MP for where the family leaves. Neither would be doing this for ‘brownie points’ instead they are representing their constituencies.
> 
> Bell is putting the correct pressure on the Met & IOPC here:




I saw the family are asking for a timeline.

And glad the MP is supporting this.

A timeline is important as the Met are past masters at dragging things out for years.


----------



## Lee Japser (Sep 13, 2022)

5,000 plus on the Chris Kaba demo. It was a honour to be Chief Steward and help organise despite the huge pressure to abandon the march in deference to the passing of the Queen. 

So far we've secured a homicide investigation and the suspension of the officer. Next demand is to get the IOPC to release the police body can video to the family and secure a timeline for the conclusion of the investigation. 

I'll be organizing a Lambeth public meeting on this shortly. The extent of Black outrage  and mainstream political support of key allies is unprecedented in recent times. 

With the Met in special measures this new Commissioner is now faced with yet another existential and possibly career defining crisis.  No one should underestimate the depth of Black pain and anger. 

Stay tuned for more info.


----------



## Lee Japser (Sep 13, 2022)




----------



## Lee Japser (Sep 13, 2022)

Great work by Bell and Helen.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 13, 2022)

Can this be Chief Steward Lee "Meta" Jasper in the first of Bell's twitter pictures? (wearing a MAGA cap)

I hadn't realised until I accidental downloaded Japser's video clip that it was one of those "filming me filming you" type c;lips - rather Steve Coogan I thought.


----------



## dbs1fan (Sep 13, 2022)

Lee Japser said:


> 5,000 plus on the Chris Kaba demo. It was a honour to be Chief Steward and help organise despite the huge pressure to abandon the march in deference to the passing of the Queen.
> 
> So far we've secured a homicide investigation and the suspension of the officer. Next demand is to get the IOPC to release the police body can video to the family and secure a timeline for the conclusion of the investigation.
> 
> ...


I'd like to think that the pain and anger is shared in the wider community.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 13, 2022)

Is this going to take years, like most police disciplinary matters? Or does the homicide investigation mean that the officer can potentially be charged in a few days, as if he was a member of the public? 

No doubt there are lots of officers furiously arguing that the Met needs to bend over backwards to protect the interests of the shooter, otherwise all the firearms officers will quit.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 13, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Is this going to take years, like most police disciplinary matters? Or does the homicide investigation mean that the officer can potentially be charged in a few days, as if he was a member of the public?


Charged ---- and  All charges of gross misconduct against officers involved in the death of Sean Rigg dismissed


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 13, 2022)

Is this Lee Japser really Lee Jasper? Interested because I last encounter the Met Police hireling when he accused me of being a fascist, at Searchlight's behest.  If it is, I would regard his involvement in any campaign to hold the Met to account with great suspicion.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Sep 13, 2022)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Is this Lee Japser really Lee Jasper? Interested because I last encounter the Met Police hireling when he accused me of being a fascist, at Searchlight's behest.  If it is, I would regard his involvement in any campaign to hold the Met to account with great suspicion.


Somehow he always manages to make it all about himself. Shameless self promotion on Mr. Lee's part as usual, but whatever it takes to get the family the answers they need is a step in the right direction. Won't bring back their Son,  but I hope they all their requests met quickly and without having to go through a long, painful, protracted campaign.


----------



## GarveyLives (Sep 14, 2022)

National Day of Action called:


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 14, 2022)

The Guardian has a piece totting up the UK's deaths of black people in police custody or shortly after police contact. 136 between 1990 and 2021. If we all click on it perhaps it can get on the 'most read' list.









						We marched for Chris Kaba, as we marched for too many others killed at the hands of police. Enough is enough | Stafford Scott
					

The family of the 24-year-old deserve answers. So does the rest of the country facing brutal overpolicing, says Stafford Scott, director of Tottenham Rights




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## teqniq (Sep 14, 2022)

Oh look, what a surprise:









						Met firearms officers threaten to disarm in row over Chris Kaba shooting
					

Metropolitan Police officers have threatened to protest after a colleague was suspended after the death of Chris Kaba.




					www.lbc.co.uk


----------



## GarveyLives (Sep 14, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Oh look, what a surprise:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is nothing particularly new about such threats from the Metropolitan Police Federation - the following was published days before the inquest into the death of former psychiatric patient, *Derek Bennett*, who was chased and shot dead (in the back) by Metropolitan Police officers on Myatts Fields Estate:



> _"No one underestimates the danger of firearms work. These officers make split-second decisions. They are trained to do so. Even so, there will be occasions when they get it wrong, and we have to accept that. But when it does go horribly wrong there must, inevitably, be consequences."_



A rebellion of arrogant gunslingers:  _Firearms officers *cannot* operate beyond public accountability_

Meanwhile, in other developments:

Chris Kaba family to be shown police video of events that lead to his killing


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 14, 2022)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Somehow he always manages to make it all about himself. Shameless self promotion on Mr. Lee's part as usual, but whatever it takes to get the family the answers they need is a step in the right direction. Won't bring back their Son,  but I hope they all their requests met quickly and without having to go through a long, painful, protracted campaign.


So it appears this is Jasper? My suspicion is that I would think he will be passing back intelligence to the Met on the campaign itself. A great pity if so but obviously the campaign deserves support


----------



## teqniq (Sep 15, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> *There is nothing particularly new about such threats from the Metropolitan Police Federation* - the following was published days before the inquest into the death of former psychiatric patient, *Derek Bennett*, who was chased and shot dead (in the back) by Metropolitan Police officers on Myatts Fields Estate:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's kinda why I typed 'what a surprise'.


----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 15, 2022)




----------



## GarveyLives (Sep 15, 2022)

chainsawjob said:


> View attachment 342820



Sadly, in the all too familiar campaign to demonise the person who they have killed, even the simplest statement of facts is controversial to the representatives of those who carried out the killing:

Chris Kaba: Police Federation of England and Wales _hits out_ at 'divisive' tweets from charity Mind over death of unarmed Black man


----------



## ska invita (Sep 15, 2022)

Demo this Saturday, Scotland Yard starting at 12pm


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## CH1 (Sep 15, 2022)

I understand that Alex Oluwade Movement for Justice has been speaking outside Brixton tube station within the last few minutes and there will be a demonstration ending at the top of Rush Common/New Park Road (proximate to Brixton Prison maybe?).


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## hitmouse (Sep 15, 2022)

Chris Kaba demos currently confirmed for Manchester, Brighton, Coventry, Leamington Spa, Cardiff, Oxford and Southampton on Saturday. Plus the London one mentioned above. (Hope those IG links work for people who don't have accounts, let me know if you need screenshots or anything).


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 15, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> Sadly, in the all too familiar campaign to demonise the person who they have killed, even the simplest statement of facts is controversial to the representatives of those who carried out the killing:
> 
> Chris Kaba: Police Federation of England and Wales _hits out_ at 'divisive' tweets from charity Mind over death of unarmed Black man



The Police Federation appear to be sending themselves here. It's like someone has written a satirical press release by the Cops.

It reeks of self pity. Police are people to and their mental health needs should be met. How dare Mind talk about prejudice when enquiry hasn't finished yet. 

Any enquiry into a police action imo takes years. Plus the Met are in special measures due to a series of incidents. The last head of Met lost the confidence of the Mayor. The Charing Cross police station incident showed the canteen culture is alive and well.

Yet the Police Federation who represent Cops whine about Mind. That this charity is divisive.

It's somewhat concerning that the organisation that represents the cop shop floor so to speak has no realisation that the Met has an image problem with significant number of Londoners.

Why the Labour centrist Mayor had to get rid of the last head of Met.

Cressida Dick as head of Met had to go. But this whining from the organisation that represents the shop floor copper shows the rot is firmly rooted in the Met.

Whoever is at the top is going to have to deal with these coppers who feel hard done by. With woke charities not feeling their pain.

Tbf I think calls to defund the police are valid now. The Police Federation outburst shows the ordinary cop doesn't want to know. Whoever heads the Met the Canteen culture Police Federation cops aren't going to change


----------



## story (Sep 15, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Why is this directed at me please?



Because your earlier posts seemed to me to be full of prejudice, as I said.


This is a late reply but I didn’t want to leave your post with no response. however the thread and the story have both moved on so this is probably redundant now.







Mood on NPR is still quite odd but less than it was.


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## BusLanes (Sep 16, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I understand that Alex Oluwade Movement for Justice has been speaking outside Brixton tube station within the last few minutes and there will be a demonstration ending at the top of Rush Common/New Park Road (proximate to Brixton Prison maybe?).



Oh when is that? This weekend or last night?


----------



## CH1 (Sep 16, 2022)

BusLanes said:


> Oh when is that? This weekend or last night?


The friend who reported it said he followed Alex ro the police station (5.30 - 6.00 pm). Alex had a megaphone but only a few supporters.
I haven't spoken to him today yet - so I don't know if they did indeed go up towards the prison.

Seems like an impromptu Alex demo not connected to Saturday up and coming (except no doubt Alex would have promoted Saturday).


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## David Clapson (Sep 16, 2022)

story said:


> Because your earlier posts seemed to me to be full of prejudice, as I said.
> 
> 
> This is a late reply but I didn’t want to leave your post with no response. however the thread and the story have both moved on so this is probably redundant now.
> ...


So you tell me my posts are prejudiced (again) but you can't actually find any prejudice in my posts (again).


----------



## story (Sep 16, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> So you tell me my posts are prejudiced (again) but you can't actually find any prejudice in my posts (again).




As I said at the time, I found your post #37 to be full of conjecture, and it’s often the case that conjecture is based in prejudice. The thread was moving fast, and I was angry. 


I don’t want to get into an unseemly / inappropriate side show on this thread.

If you want me to retract or something I’ll do that.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 16, 2022)

I think you should retract your assumptions that I'm prejudiced.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I'd rather not get into it until we know for certain what happened. But it seems a lot of people are already making big assumptions, so here are a few things I would consider.
> 
> The police say there was a car chase, which means they had asked him to pull over but he wouldn't. That alone is a crime for which you can be jailed.   So it's highly suspicious if you do it....you could be trying to get away with something more serious.
> 
> ...


other solutions are available. like not killing black people. like not policing them disproportionately. you're making a number of what are at best unfounded assumptions there, which include a) half the population of london's black; b) that black cops will act more fairly than white cops when dealing with black people; c) that 'injustices' only started happening 50 years ago - as well as, elsewhere in your post, your 'begging to be shot' bit. prejudiced? i'd say so. even if he was involved with guns we used to have a criminal justice system which dealt with that sort of thing rather than appointing cops judge, jury and executioner.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I think you should retract your assumptions that I'm prejudiced.


i beg to differ


----------



## l'Otters (Sep 16, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I think you should retract your assumptions that I'm prejudiced.


We’re all prejudiced. We live in a structurally racist society. We can put the work in to undo that but as white people being steeped in this culture it’s unlikely that nothing will come to show what else we need to learn / unlearn.


----------



## story (Sep 16, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I think you should retract your assumptions that I'm prejudiced.




Okay.
Done.

My assumptions are now retracted.
Any assumptions I make about you from now on will be based on posts you make from now onwards.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 16, 2022)

Kaba's family are to be shown bodycam footage next week.  Chris Kaba’s family to be shown police video of events that led to his killing 

The Guardian is trying to pressure the new commissioner to make firearms tactics less dangerous for the public. The Guardian view on the shooting of Chris Kaba: public trust is at stake | Editorial


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Kaba's family are to be shown bodycam footage next week.  Chris Kaba’s family to be shown police video of events that led to his killing
> 
> The Guardian is trying to pressure the new commissioner to make firearms tactics less dangerous for the public. The Guardian view on the shooting of Chris Kaba: public trust is at stake | Editorial


That's a really poorly written article, the second one

and it would be good if you read the thread rather than posting articles from a couple of days ago which have already been shared


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 16, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Chris Kaba demos currently confirmed for Manchester, Brighton, Coventry, Leamington Spa, Cardiff, Oxford and Southampton on Saturday. Plus the London one mentioned above. (Hope those IG links work for people who don't have accounts, let me know if you need screenshots or anything).


Just confirmed that there will also be a Cambridge demo happening tomorrow.


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## CH1 (Sep 17, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Just confirmed that there will also be a Cambridge demo happening tomorrow.


I have an Instagram account I can no longer access because I am landline only.
But I got the general message.
But I do think Meta AND NextDoor are shit because they deny access to a sector of the population - presumably mainly pensioners on a low budget like myself. They can stick their verification SMSs up their ass!


----------



## teqniq (Sep 17, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I have an Instagram account I can no longer access because I am landline only.
> But I got the general message.
> But I do think Meta AND NextDoor are shit because they deny access to a sector of the population - presumably mainly pensioners on a low budget like myself. They can stick their verification SMSs up their ass!


I only rarely access my instagram account and don't have to use SMS's for authentication (I only really ever access it via a web browser on my desktop computer). You must have 2 factor authentication enabled. Next time you can access it, if you can disable 2FA.


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## hitmouse (Sep 17, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I have an Instagram account I can no longer access because I am landline only.
> But I got the general message.
> But I do think Meta AND NextDoor are shit because they deny access to a sector of the population - presumably mainly pensioners on a low budget like myself. They can stick their verification SMSs up their ass!


Yeah, as teqniq says, I'd hope you'd be able to access those individual posts by clicking the link in your browser?


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## CH1 (Sep 17, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Yeah, as teqniq says, I'd hope you'd be able to access those individual posts by clicking the link in your browser?


I saw the first post yesterday, then the 2 factor authentication kicked in.
teqniq - you can't disable 2FA unless you can log in. The same applies to PatientAccess by the way - but you can get a reset there by direct tweeting or email, which of course if not possible with Meta (or NextDoor).


----------



## teqniq (Sep 17, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I saw the first post yesterday, then the 2 factor authentication kicked in.
> teqniq - you can't disable 2FA unless you can log in. The same applies to PatientAccess by the way - but you can get a reset there by direct tweeting or email, which of course if not possible with Meta (or NextDoor).


Yes I realise you can't disable unless you are logged in which is why I said 'next time'.


----------



## kalidarkone (Sep 17, 2022)

l'Otters said:


> We’re all prejudiced. We live in a structurally racist society. We can put the work in to undo that but as white people being steeped in this culture it’s unlikely that nothing will come to show what else we need to learn / unlearn.


Are we all white?
Is it only white people being steeped in this culture?
I think you might need to be more inclusive or consider it when posting and making assumptions that everyone on u75 is white- which is how the above came across.


----------



## l'Otters (Sep 17, 2022)

kalidarkone said:


> Are we all white?
> Is it only white people being steeped in this culture?
> I think you might need to be more inclusive or consider it when posting and making assumptions that everyone on u75 is white- which is how the above came across.


I realised that it could come across that way as I was writing it and should have taken more time in figuring out how to put across the point I was trying to make - To make it clear it was directed at other white people on here who may want to be decent allies.

Would prefacing it with “as white people living in the UK” have worked? It was intended as a message to david clapson to try and get past the defensiveness.


----------



## GarveyLives (Sep 17, 2022)

Most of today's nationwide protests are listed here:


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 17, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> Most of today's nationwide protests are listed here:


Was just coming here to post that - think the current updated list in text format is:


📍LONDON: 12pm, New Scotland Yard

📍BRIGHTON: 2pm, Brighton Police Station, John Street

📍HASTINGS: 12pm, Hastings Town Centre

📍OXFORD: 1.30pm in Bonn Square

📍SOUTHAMPTON: 12.30pm, Guildhall Square

📍COVENTRY: 12pm, Broadgate, CV1 1LL

📍MIDLANDS: 12pm, Leamington Town Hall

📍MANCHESTER: 2pm, St Peter’s Square

📍TAUNTON: POSTPONED

📍CARDIFF: 2pm, Cardiff Bay Police Station, James St.

📍 NORTHAMPTON: 2:30pm, Abington Street, outside BBC Northampton

📍 BRISTOL: 2pm, Queens Square

📍 CAMBRIDGE: 2pm, Parker’s Piece

📍 LEEDS: MONDAY, 12pm, Millennium Square

Bit late now for some of them but some are later this afternoon. Brave of Leeds to choose Monday for theirs.


----------



## rich! (Sep 17, 2022)

Decent turnout at the London one today. Some very odd looks from people down for The Queue


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 17, 2022)

The story is gaining traction. It's on every hourly news summary on R4.

There's some nasty stuff on Twitter about the guy being a gang member and career criminal. Is there any evidence of that, apart from dubious noise on Reddit? I realise that even if he was up to no good it wouldn't justify his execution. (Which I shouldn't need to say, but people will make assumptions if I don't.) It would also be good to make the obvious point about rehabilitation of offenders if he was trying to turn a corner.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> The story is gaining traction. It's on every hourly news summary on R4.
> 
> There's some nasty stuff on Twitter about the guy being a gang member and career criminal. Is there any evidence of that, apart from dubious noise on Reddit? I realise that even if he was up to no good it wouldn't justify his execution. (Which I shouldn't need to say, but people will make assumptions if I don't.) It would also be good to make the obvious point about rehabilitation of offenders if he was trying to turn a corner.


No one will make assumptions about you. There's no need to, given what you've said in this thread. Weird to see you try to backtrack tho, you're in a hole - quit digging


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> he was a known member of 67 gang who had only just got out of jail, clearly failed to stop when asked and they have witnesses saying he was trying to ram police cars/officers. I don't think the Met will have an issue defending their officers. he was supposedly one of the most 'active' members of a gang who collectively have been sent to jail for large county lines drug operations and multiple murders, stabbings, beatings, so I have trouble with painting him as innocent victim.


How do you feel now?


----------



## rich! (Sep 17, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> The story is gaining traction. It's on every hourly news summary on R4.
> 
> There's some nasty stuff on Twitter about the guy being a gang member and career criminal. Is there any evidence of that, apart from dubious noise on Reddit? I realise that even if he was up to no good it wouldn't justify his execution. (Which I shouldn't need to say, but people will make assumptions if I don't.) It would also be good to make the obvious point about rehabilitation of offenders if he was trying to turn a corner.


There were a lot of broadcast cameras for today's demo, unlike last week. And international journalists. So I think the story has legs...


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 17, 2022)

My local one wasn't great, I'm rubbish at guessing numbers but I'd say probably still below 100 at its peak. It was a SUTR-organised one, so not sure how much of that's deliberate boycott versus how much it's just a bit difficult organising things at short notice? Did have a skinhead bloke walk past who definitely and clearly shouted "white lives matter too" and - I find myself doubting my memory on this, since it's not something I've ever actually heard someone say in real life before, but this is what it sounded like - I think also added "1488!" once he was at a safe distance.
Oh, and the RCG turned up with both a Palestine and a Cuba flag, which seemed like a nice way of honouring the justice campaign's request to keep today's protests focused on Chris Kaba.


----------



## rich! (Sep 17, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> My local one wasn't great, I'm rubbish at guessing numbers but I'd say probably still below 100 at its peak. It was a SUTR-organised one, so not sure how much of that's deliberate boycott versus how much it's just a bit difficult organising things at short notice? Did have a skinhead bloke walk past who definitely and clearly shouted "white lives matter too" and - I find myself doubting my memory on this, since it's not something I've ever actually heard someone say in real life before, but this is what it sounded like - I think also added "1488!" once he was at a safe distance.
> Oh, and the RCG turned up with both a Palestine and a Cuba flag, which seemed like a nice way of honouring the justice campaign's request to keep today's protests focused on Chris Kaba.


Ah yeah the other flags were at the London demo.

I remember attending a BLM demo outside Islington police station back in 2020 and some middle aged white men swaggered past and shouted "all lives matter" and someone snapped back "that's the point"


----------



## edcraw (Sep 17, 2022)




----------



## oryx (Sep 17, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> The story is gaining traction. It's on every hourly news summary on R4.
> 
> There's some nasty stuff on Twitter about the guy being a gang member and career criminal. Is there any evidence of that, apart from dubious noise on Reddit? I realise that even if he was up to no good it wouldn't justify his execution. (Which I shouldn't need to say, but people will make assumptions if I don't.) It would also be good to make the obvious point about rehabilitation of offenders if he was trying to turn a corner.


I think the major point of this tragic episode is not whether Chris Kaba was a gang member, criminal or whatever.

It's that he shouldn't have been shot dead.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 17, 2022)

oryx said:


> I think the major point of this tragic episode is not whether Chris Kaba was a gang member, criminal or whatever.
> 
> It's that he shouldn't have been shot dead.


This - and about how police handle these situations to not needlessly escalate them and have correct information.

The police have admitted it took 11 hours to notify the family which suggests they may not even have know who he was.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 17, 2022)

edcraw said:


> This - and about how police handle these situations to not needlessly escalate them and have correct information.
> 
> The police have admitted it took 11 hours to notify the family which suggests they may not even have know who he was.


Yes look at the protester in Westminster Hall at the Queen's lying in state.
Police grabbed him and carried him out without brandishing a weapon or using a taser.
If they can be properly trained for the late Queen, they can be properly trained for us.


----------



## kalidarkone (Sep 17, 2022)

l'Otters said:


> I realised that it could come across that way as I was writing it and should have taken more time in figuring out how to put across the point I was trying to make - To make it clear it was directed at other white people on here who may want to be decent allies.
> 
> Would prefacing it with “as white people living in the UK” have worked? It was intended as a message to david clapson to try and get past the defensiveness.


All you had to do was change " as white people" to " for white people" ......seeped in this culture....

I know what your intentions were but don't think you can afford to be clumsy with your wording, especially as someone who often pulls others up. The fact that such a seemingly small error reflected the kind of assumptions that are made constantly by the white majority in the UK, is ironic given the subject matter and  just makes me fucking despair.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 17, 2022)

oryx said:


> I think the major point of this tragic episode is not whether Chris Kaba was a gang member, criminal or whatever.
> 
> It's that he shouldn't have been shot


You must be one of those insightful people on youtube who watch a video then write a comment describing it.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 19, 2022)

8 police have arrived in Rushcroft Rd "because of the demo at the tube about the shooting in Streatham". I was at the tube 10 mins ago and it was just 2 people with a table of leaflets about the Movement for Justice.


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## edcraw (Sep 21, 2022)

Guardian podcast today is covering this.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 21, 2022)

Statement from the IOPC.






						Update on fatal police shooting of Chris Kaba | Independent Office for Police Conduct
					






					www.policeconduct.gov.uk
				




They say the investigation will take six to nine months. They are talking to the family.

Reading this and I have a problem. It's probably not the IOPC fault.

The emphasis is on the particular police officer who shot Kaba

Where as I would want to see the IOPC investigate this and the training/ protocols armed officers work under.

The "hard stop" tactic has been criticized.

It's not just about individual officers it's imo about how the Met operate as an organisation.


----------



## story (Sep 21, 2022)

Cut and paste from that link here




> Update on fatal police shooting of Chris Kaba​Our investigators are working hard to collate and review a large amount of evidence as our homicide investigation progresses into the fatal shooting in Lambeth, south London of Chris Kaba.
> 
> Mr Kaba, aged 24, was fatally shot on 5 September by a Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) officer in Streatham Hill.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 21, 2022)

Police admit they should have reviewed tactic used in Mark Duggan case
					

Independent Police Complaints Commission recommended the review of 'hard stop' in 2005, saying it was a 'high risk option'




					www.theguardian.com
				




The Hard Stop tactic has been criticised before yet its still being used. As in this case. 

No weapon has been found in the area. Police looked for one. Kabe was unarmed.


----------



## pbsmooth (Sep 21, 2022)

Family have decided to "step back" after seeing the footage.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Sep 21, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Family have decided to "step back" after seeing the footage.


Where did you see that?

Guardian reporting "The family of Chris Kaba have reiterated their call for “justice” after being shown the bodycam footage of his shooting during a meeting with the new commissioner of the Metropolitan police."

Edit: Just seen the quote about 'stepping back' further down the article.

Chris Kaba shooting: family call for ‘justice’ after viewing bodycam footage


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 21, 2022)

Yes, the quote was there. I wonder what the footage showed and if we'll ever see it.


----------



## story (Sep 22, 2022)

The quote says 



> Jefferson Bosela, Kaba’s cousin who was also at the meeting, said: “It was hard, but the family just wants justice. *For now, the family are going to take a break and take a step back.”*




There are several ways to read or interpret this.

They’re taking a step back because they now see that the copper was in some way justified in his actions. They can understand why this terrible thing happened and they are willing to reduce their insistence that the police acted wrongfully.


or

They‘re taking a step back because the bodycam footage makes it clear that sometihg went terribly wrong, Chris Kaba wasn’t a threat, the copper’s act was unwarranted and unjustified. It’s so obvious that they can rest easy knowing that it’s only a matter of time before this is made official. Hurrying the IOPC into making a judgment won’t bring him back so they’ll wait til the investigation is complete. In the meantime they can take the time to rest and grieve.

 or

They‘re taking a step back because it’s all very confused and unclear. There are other elements that might help to clarify things, and it will take time for those things to be elucidated. The best thing now is to allow the IOPC to study the story and find out what happened. Six to nine months, time to find strength for what might come next.


They are still calling for justice. That’s a powerful word full of specific meaning. If the film showed that the copper was acting in a reasonable way, would “justice” still be at the top of their list?


No way of knowing. All we can do is take our lead from the family and wait for the ruling.


----------



## Smick (Sep 22, 2022)

Or maybe they’re taking a step back because they need to grieve and no longer want to be in the public spotlight.

Not only has his mother lost her son, she has had to watch a video of the moment he went from life to death. 

There were some news videos of his mother at home which were really tough to watch and felt quite invasive. No amount of interviews or demonstrations will bring her son back.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 25, 2022)

In recent news the family are backing Inquest in sending this case to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.

Hardly the actions of a family who are stepping back due to viewing of footage. The implication being is that it shows Kaba was at fault in some way. 

Which is how taking a step back is being used. 










						Chris Kaba’s family back call for UN to examine police shooting
					

The charity Inquest has submitted details of death of unarmed black man in London to the human rights commissioner




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## DaphneM (Sep 26, 2022)

There seem to be a lot of unknowns.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 26, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> There seem to be a lot of unknowns.



And unknown unknowns.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 26, 2022)

Im getting irritated by some of the posting here.

Some posters like me say what they think.

Others drop in posts that don't say where the poster is coming from but remind me of the way the police deal with controversial events,

That is don't actually say that those critical of how police work in this country are wrong but drop in little drip by drip undermining of those who are critical.

I see this on this thread.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 26, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> I see it on this thread.



Ooh! A seer! 

Skip back to my posts on the Duggan thread or police brutality thread if you think I’m uncritical of the police.

With the amount of speculation going on here it’s reasonable to point out that we don’t have all that much in the way of clear facts.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 26, 2022)

story said:


> The quote says
> 
> There are several ways to read or interpret this.
> 
> ...


The family have now issued a statement for clarification - annoyingly they don't seem to have put it in proper text format, but here it is:


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 26, 2022)

8ball said:


> Ooh! A seer!
> 
> Skip back to my posts on the Duggan thread or police brutality thread if you think I’m uncritical of the police.
> 
> With the amount of speculation going on here it’s reasonable to point out that we don’t have all that much in the way of clear facts.



I have not done much in way of speculation here. 

Nor am I a "seer".

I am a regular on Brixton forum so basing this on what I see happens here.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 26, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> I have not done much in way of speculation here.
> 
> Nor am I a "seer".
> 
> I am a regular on Brixton forum so basing this on what I see happens here.



No, you haven’t done so personally from what I have read (and me pointing fingers will start a bunfight anyhow), but a poster pointing out the degree of speculation is reasonable imo.

It _is_ the Met tbf, and few things would surprise me after Duggan, but we had so much to go on in that case.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 26, 2022)

Inquest starts in a couple of weeks. Maybe we'll learn a bit more.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 26, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Inquest starts in a couple of weeks. Maybe we'll learn a bit more.



They’ll certainly have had plenty of time to get their story straight.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 26, 2022)

Inquest website which I regard as reliable says this statement :








						Chris Kaba: Latest family statement
					

22 September 2022




					www.inquest.org.uk
				




So they have "stepped back"

But in my reading want a genuine investigation in a reasonable time period ( urgent accountability} with regular updates which are meaningful.

I take this as meaning they are prepared to give a chance for justice to take its course. So will step back from public action. 

As long as its done in meaningful and urgent way.

Not the usual time wasting long drawn out investigation that gets held up by Met obstinate behaviour. Which goes on for years.

The also want the officer to be questioned under caution. - be interesting to see if this happens.    



> On behalf of the family of Chris Kaba and in collaboration with their legal representatives at Hickman and Rose, INQUEST are issuing the following statement:
> 
> Yesterday, Chris Kaba’s closest family were given the opportunity to view some footage of the incident in which he was fatally shot by a police officer.
> 
> ...


----------



## story (Sep 26, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> Im getting irritated by some of the posting here.
> 
> Some posters like me say what they think.
> 
> ...



I have no criticism of how the Justice for Chris Kaba campaign has been conducted, nor of any other aspect of the civilian response to the killing of Chris Kaba.

For the record, from the start and still, I strongly suspect the police are at fault here. I strongly suspect that the police acted illegally, and very probably that was rooted in personal racism of the individual officer, historic racism of local relations, and systemic racism of the Met.

I’m saying “strongly suspect” and “very probably“ rather than “believe“ and “know” because we haven’t seen the results of the enquiry and there’s been no court case yet.

.


----------



## DaphneM (Sep 27, 2022)

story said:


> I have no criticism of how the Justice for Chris Kaba campaign has been conducted, nor of any other aspect of the civilian response to the killing of Chris Kaba.
> 
> For the record, from the start and still, I strongly suspect the police are at fault here. I strongly suspect that the police acted illegally, and very probably that was rooted in personal racism of the individual officer, historic racism of local relations, and systemic racism of the Met.
> 
> ...


that seems like a very sensible way to proceed


----------



## Dystopiary (Sep 27, 2022)

Reposting this from the Filth by Name thread because it mentions Chris Kaba. It's from the latest Private Eye, on the IOPC and Met corruption.


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## David Clapson (Sep 27, 2022)

story said:


> I strongly suspect that the police acted illegally.


Ever since I read that the officer fired only one shot, which hit Chris Kaba in the head, I've been certain that it was murder. The officer must have been very close to him. Close enough to see that he wasn't armed. If the officer thought he was at risk of being run over, he should have got out of the way and not fired his gun. The shooting was avoidable and unjustified. The officer's intent was to kill. Which makes it murder. 

I suspect the police will argue that the officer was forced to shoot, to save his own life. But there was no need for him to endanger himself by standing in front of the car. If Kaba was panicking and smashing his car into police cars, they could have just let him carry on. He couldn't drive past them. So why kill him just to stop him damaging a couple of cars?     

It reminds me of the shooting of Mark Saunders in 2008 Death of Mark Saunders - Wikipedia. The police could have waited and kept their heads down. They weren't at risk. Eventually the guy would have given up or killed himself.


----------



## story (Sep 27, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Ever since I read that the officer fired only one shot, which hit Chris Kaba in the head, I've been certain that it was murder. The officer must have been very close to him. Close enough to see that he wasn't armed. If the officer thought he was at risk of being run over, he should have got out of the way and not fired his gun. The shooting was avoidable and unjustified. The officer's intent was to kill. Which makes it murder.
> 
> I suspect the police will argue that the officer was forced to shoot, to save his own life. But there was no need for him to endanger himself by standing in front of the car. If Kaba was panicking and smashing his car into police cars, they could have just let him carry on. He couldn't drive past them. So why kill him just to stop him damaging a couple of cars?
> 
> It reminds me of the shooting of Mark Saunders in 2008 Death of Mark Saunders - Wikipedia. The police could have waited and kept their heads down. They weren't at risk. Eventually the guy would have given up or killed himself.



I don’t disagree with any of this.


When I heard that it was a single shot through the windscreen and the car was blocked in, it immediately reminded me of something that happened on the street I used to live on. 

This was back in…. maybe the early 2000’s

There was a commotion, and a helicopter. Our bedroom was at the front of the house, first floor. We opened the blinds and watched from the bed.

 The helicopter fucked off pretty quickly, it later transpired that this was because it was obvious there was no gun involved.

A burglar had been interrupted and he’d gone up inside the house, into the attic and out onto the roof. The police were on the street, two cars, cops standing around on the street. He was trapped up on the roof. He roamed about looking for a way down and quickly realised that even if he found a way down he would immediately be caught. He sat on the roof ridge for a while, maybe 40-60 minutes. Judging the way he was moving he was having a pretty intense conversation with himself about what to do and how stupid he felt. Cops didn’t even bother talking to him with loudhailers, just waited. A fire engine was called and was idling nearby. We half expected that they’d use the ladder to get a cop up to the roof but they didn’t even do that, they just waited.

It was club turn out time and people were walking past, cops didn’t even tell them to walk on one side of the street. cops knew it was just a waiting game, and they’d win. They’d change shifts if they had to and just keep waiting.

Eventually the fella came down the pitch of the roof and stood near the edge indicated that he was ready to come down. They sent the ladder up with a fire officer and brought him down, he turned to get cuffed and went off in the cop car. The fire officer went back up onto the roof to check the gutters, I guess for contraband, anything he might have dumped, then they left. The homeowner was out and didn’t even know anything had happened til he heard the story from another neighbour the following evening,

We kept saying to each other, and afterwards to everyone we told the story to “If this had happened in America or if the British police were armed that kid would be dead, they would have shot him. No doubt.”


Obviously the circumstances are entirely different but also there were similarities. The suspect being trapped, no one else being at risk, a waiting game can ensue. 


They could have even clamped the car ffs. If they can get a whole arse fire engine out they can find and use a wheel clamp.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 27, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Ever since I read that the officer fired only one shot, which hit Chris Kaba in the head, I've been certain that it was murder. The officer must have been very close to him. Close enough to see that he wasn't armed. If the officer thought he was at risk of being run over, he should have got out of the way and not fired his gun. The shooting was avoidable and unjustified. The officer's intent was to kill. Which makes it murder.
> 
> I suspect the police will argue that the officer was forced to shoot, to save his own life. But there was no need for him to endanger himself by standing in front of the car. If Kaba was panicking and smashing his car into police cars, they could have just let him carry on. He couldn't drive past them. So why kill him just to stop him damaging a couple of cars?
> 
> It reminds me of the shooting of Mark Saunders in 2008 Death of Mark Saunders - Wikipedia. The police could have waited and kept their heads down. They weren't at risk. Eventually the guy would have given up or killed himself.



The officer does not necessarily need to be in front of the car.  If someone is in ram rage mode and is trying to hit other officers, then the shooter could have been very close to the side of the car and shot while the car was stationary (ie. has rammed something and is readying up to reverse for another go).  That way, if the car is not going anywhere after one shot you know you have stopped them.


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## Mr paulee (Sep 29, 2022)

Feuds Between Drill Gangs Could Hold Clue to Death of Chris Kaba
					

Earlier this month 24-year-old Chris Kaba, an unarmed black man, was shot dead by a Metropolitan Police officer ...




					www.theepochtimes.com


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## CH1 (Sep 29, 2022)

Mr paulee said:


> Feuds Between Drill Gangs Could Hold Clue to Death of Chris Kaba
> 
> 
> Earlier this month 24-year-old Chris Kaba, an unarmed black man, was shot dead by a Metropolitan Police officer ...
> ...


Have you read it? As a confirmed old fart I would not dismiss the analysis - but the logical corollary of this is that HMG should - like China - have a censored internet.
Ironic this, as the Epoch Times is Falun Gong symathetic. As I had to sign up to read ir no doubt I will now get weekly invites to demonstrate at the British Museum.

BTW is this BPM info accurate? 
Musically, drill songs have an average of 140–150 beats per minute, compared with 100–130 for pop songs and 60–80 for R’n’B.

I guess the text of the "rap" is important too, but Epoch Times don't go into this. My most extreme musical taste is for Wagner - who was of course banned in Britian during WW2 - for being both German and a Hiltler favourite. Still banned in Israel for being an anti semite.

Would it be practical to censor Youtube, Tik Tok etc for agressive lyrics and excessive bpm?  Just asking!


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## CH1 (Sep 30, 2022)

Regarding the above - I recalled this video feat Bernie Grant MP highly political for its time, and dealing with issues people really needed to complain about, rather than grudges, dissing and murder. Where did it all go wrong?


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## GarveyLives (Oct 1, 2022)

21 September 2022:



pbsmooth said:


> Family have decided to "step back" after seeing the footage.



No doubt the Metropolitan Police will be disappointed by this:



> _"The family of Chris Kaba have said they will not “let up” on their campaign for justice after viewing footage from the night he was shot dead by police ..."_



24 September 2022: Chris Kaba's family vow _there is no let up_ in their demands for justice 

29 September 2022: Chris Kaba's family demand _footage be made public_ of moment police shot him


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## 8ball (Oct 1, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> 21 September 2022:
> 
> No doubt the Metropolitan Police will be disappointed by this:
> 
> ...



Well, they can solve that problem by making the footage public.


----------



## GarveyLives (Oct 4, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Inquest starts in a couple of weeks. Maybe we'll learn a bit more.





8ball said:


> They’ll certainly have had plenty of time to get their story straight.



All that we are likely to learn from this morning's hearing is the name of the deceased, and the fact that he died of a gunshot wound (ones suspects to the head).  The full inquest hearing date will be set for a year to eighteen months' time, by which the State hopes that Mr Kaba's friends and family will have been sufficiently worn down to be unable to continue to seek the truth about the full circumstances of his killing.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> All that we are likely to learn from this morning's hearing is the name of the deceased, and the fact that he died of a gunshot wound (ones suspects to the head).  The full inquest hearing date will be set for a year to eighteen months' time, by which the State hopes that Mr Kaba's friends and family will have been sufficiently worn down to be unable to continue to seek the truth about the full circumstances of his killing.


you never know, the truth often emerges at an inquest - there's been quite a number of times inquest juries have returned verdicts of unlawful killing following police killings. the issue's more with what happens after that.


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## David Clapson (Oct 4, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> All that we are likely to learn from this morning's hearing is the name of the deceased, and the fact that he died of a gunshot wound (ones suspects to the head).  The full inquest hearing date will be set for a year to eighteen months' time, by which the State hopes that Mr Kaba's friends and family will have been sufficiently worn down to be unable to continue to seek the truth about the full circumstances of his killing.


It's always the way. By the time the officer is criticised he'll probably have been promoted and retired. Maybe a huge demo could accelerate the process, but I'm not sure there are enough angry people, or a leader who can run an effective campaign. This won't be the UK's George Floyd moment. There've been so many black men killed by the Met lately....e.g. Ian Taylor and Oladeji Omishore...you'd think there'd be more than enough momentum for large scale disorder. But it just doesn't happen.


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## GarveyLives (Oct 4, 2022)

Independent Office for Police Conduct statement read out at opening of inquest into the death of Chris Kaba on 4 October 2022


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## David Clapson (Oct 4, 2022)

Sounds like there wasn't a chase.  So he didn't refuse to stop. He drove into a trap without knowing he was being followed Chris Kaba’s car collided with police vehicles before he was fatally shot - inquest:

 "Police officers had been briefed about the suspect Audi before they started their shift that day, but Mr Kaba’s name was not included in this briefing. The car was spotted by Automatic Number Plate Recognition, prompting police officers to start following the vehicle at 9.52pm...the officers did not activate their sirens or lights and at 10.07pm the car Mr Kaba was driving turned into a quiet residential road where another marked police vehicle was already waiting. As Mr Kaba made a left turn, the decision was made to perform an extraction”.


----------



## Smick (Oct 4, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Sounds like there wasn't a chase.  So he didn't refuse to stop. He drove into a trap without knowing he was being followed Chris Kaba’s car collided with police vehicles before he was fatally shot - inquest:
> 
> "Police officers had been briefed about the suspect Audi before they started their shift that day, but Mr Kaba’s name was not included in this briefing. The car was spotted by Automatic Number Plate Recognition, prompting police officers to start following the vehicle at 9.52pm...the officers did not activate their sirens or lights and at 10.07pm the car Mr Kaba was driving turned into a quiet residential road where another marked police vehicle was already waiting. As Mr Kaba made a left turn, the decision was made to perform an extraction”.


That makes sense. Knowing the road as I do, if there were a multiple vehicle chase along any of the roads leading to there, I couldn't see how they could have split up and both come to the same location from two different angles.

Although I guess there is a question as to how the police knew to wait for him in Kirkstall Gardens. You would think that it would be more likely he would drive down NPR.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 4, 2022)

If you read the actual statement that GarveyLives posted two posts above, rather than the shit Evening Standard article, you will see that they didn't expect him to drive down Kirkstall Gardens, rather they were waiting in Kirkstall Gardens to join the tail going up NPR, however when the target vehicle turned into Kirkstall Gardens they quickly revised their plan.


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## David Clapson (Oct 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> If you read the actual statement that GarveyLives posted two posts above, rather than the shit Evening Standard article, you will see that they didn't expect him to drive down Kirkstall Gardens, rather they were waiting in Kirkstall Gardens to join the tail going up NPR, however when the target vehicle turned into Kirkstall Gardens they quickly revised thei



The point that there was no chase still stands. And the point that he would have very good reason to panic when he found armed police blocking him from the front and back, when there hadn't even been a blue light.  He must have thought his number was up. I'm even more dismayed than I was before. The police made it look like a targeted killing. Maybe it was by accident rather than by design, but they still did it.  Given how many black men are killed by the police, it seems entirely reasonable to me that Kaba tried to escape by ramming cars out of the way.   

We also learned from the inquest that Kaba was not considered a suspect.  Chris Kaba was not a suspect before being fatally shot by police, hears inquest Is that a way of saying that he was not suspected of anything at all? That he was no longer involved with the criminal side of the gang?

We still don't know who the police thought was driving the car, or when they knew the identity of the person they'd shot.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 4, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> Independent Office for Police Conduct statement read out at opening of inquest into the death of Chris Kaba on 4 October 2022


This sounds technical: * ‘enforced stop extraction’ *


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2022)

CH1 said:


> This sounds technical: * ‘enforced stop extraction’ *


most people can spell kill with just four letters


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 4, 2022)

no chase but as was suggested by the eyewitness at the start, sounds like they stop and want him to get out of the car, he instead tried to drive off, which becomes 'using his vehicle as a weapon', so the officer he's about to run over, shoots him.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 4, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> no chase but as was suggested by the eyewitness at the start, sounds like they stop and want him to get out of the car, he instead tried to drive off, which becomes 'using his vehicle as a weapon', so the officer he's about to run over, shoots him.


No sirens or lights to notify youre being asked to pull over, no chase, no indication he knew he was being followed by an unmarked police car, until suddenly the road is blocked and there's armed police screaming. Who wouldn't panic and want to get the fuck out of there?


----------



## story (Oct 4, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> no chase but as was suggested by the eyewitness at the start, sounds like they stop and want him to get out of the car, he instead tried to drive off, which becomes 'using his vehicle as a weapon', so the *officer he's about to run over,* shoots him.



How do you know this?
If you don’t know it, on what are you basing your assumption?


----------



## Smick (Oct 4, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> If you read the actual statement that GarveyLives posted two posts above, rather than the shit Evening Standard article, you will see that they didn't expect him to drive down Kirkstall Gardens, rather they were waiting in Kirkstall Gardens to join the tail going up NPR, however when the target vehicle turned into Kirkstall Gardens they quickly revised their plan.


Sorry, it’s a force of habit not to read GarveyLives links.



> No sirens or lights to notify youre being asked to pull over, no chase, no indication he knew he was being followed by an unmarked police car, until suddenly the road is blocked and there's armed police screaming. Who wouldn't panic and want to get the fuck out of there?


It’s a very different scenario to what has been presented so far, isn’t it. With it being so local, I have kept a very close eye on this story. I was sure, given what I had read, that this was a ‘chase’, that Kaba had time to weigh up his options and may have become more desperate as time progressed.

It seems he maybe was only aware of his situation for his last five seconds.


----------



## edcraw (Oct 5, 2022)

So the insinuation that there was a chase has proved wrong. Another example of the police basically lying to get ahead of the story.



platinumsage said:


> Fine, "wasn't doing anything wrong driving" - but that seems unlikely, if he was being pursued as so many sources state, because drivers who are driving are required to stop immediately if directed to do so by the police.
> 
> How have you concluded he was "doing nothing wrong driving"?


----------



## edcraw (Oct 5, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> "Chris Kaba, 24, died after a police pursuit of a car ended in Streatham Hill on Monday night."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Newspapers etc. were quick to report a chase as fact which then people use to justify the shooting.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 5, 2022)

DietCokeGirl said:


> No sirens or lights to notify youre being asked to pull over, no chase, no indication he knew he was being followed by an unmarked police car, until suddenly the road is blocked and there's armed police screaming. Who wouldn't panic and want to get the fuck out of there?



I haven’t seen the video - do you have a link?


----------



## teqniq (Oct 5, 2022)

A bit more detail:


----------



## edcraw (Oct 5, 2022)

Met have retracted their statement about a chase with this poor explanation.



> They said: "Our first statement said firearms officers were in pursuit of a suspect vehicle. This was based on information available in the very early stages of the incident.


Yet again the Met are caught releasing false information to cover up their actions with seemingly no consequences.









						Met Police U-turn on claim officers 'chased' Chris Kaba's car before he was shot
					

Police followed the car Chris Kaba was driving however, the sirens and lights were not activated before he turned a corner and was shot dead by police




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Met have retracted their statement about a chase with this poor explanation.
> 
> 
> Yet again the Met are caught releasing false information to cover up their actions with seemingly no consequences.
> ...


after the precedents of eg mark duggan and jean charles de menezes it's clear there will be no consequences for their lying


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2022)

story said:


> How do you know this?
> If you don’t know it, on what are you basing your assumption?


guessing based on the info in the public domain - just like everyone else on the thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> guessing based on the info in the public domain - just like everyone else on the thread.


strange how your guesses always land the wrong way up. why would this cop - in the scenario you pose - use lethal force instead of just moving out of the way? i don't see how your guesses could be on stuff in the public domain being as we've been told from the off that the car he was in was hemmed in Man shot dead by police ‘was due to become a father’ you're blatantly making it up. so your best coa would be to pipe the fuck down.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2022)

DietCokeGirl said:


> No sirens or lights to notify youre being asked to pull over, no chase, no indication he knew he was being followed by an unmarked police car, until suddenly the road is blocked and there's armed police screaming. Who wouldn't panic and want to get the fuck out of there?


you would try to drive away when faced with armed police, even when that includes presumably driving through/at people? fair enough - I wouldn't.


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## David Clapson (Oct 5, 2022)

If you're a black guy and you know about all the deaths/killings the Met has got away with, it's "reasonable" in the legal sense of the word to protect yourself by driving at an armed officer.


----------



## story (Oct 5, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> you would try to drive away when faced with armed police, even when that includes presumably driving through/at people? fair enough - I wouldn't.



So you made a guess. You guessed that he was trying to run over a policeman.

The only facts we had at the time was that a Black man had been shot dead by a policeman.

And even after it became pretty obvious that the police were at the least dissembling about some of the details you continued to guess that the dead man had been trying to escape.

Further, you state that this is something you wouldn’t do.

And rather than extending your assumption and anticipation about your own behaviour to Chris Kaba, you guessed he would do something different, something that you would never do.

Why is that? What is that based in? What clues or prompts led you to make this guess?

And before you say “Well he had these associations to the gang and a prior conviction“ that’s still not enough to give you any certainty that he was intending or attempting to run over the copper.

Chris Kaba did his time, and by all public accounts had turned his life around.

Can you really truly not see how prejudiced you sound?

Prejudiced as in pre-judging based on assumption.

I‘m not going to speculate about what’s  underlying your judgement. But you know, don’t you,


----------



## DaphneM (Oct 5, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> If you're a black guy and you know about all the deaths/killings the Met has got away with, it's "reasonable" in the legal sense of the word to protect yourself by driving at an armed officer.


Reasonable possibly but not sensible


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> Reasonable possibly but not sensible


yeh unlikely to end happily. police do not take being driven at in the spirit they might


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## Gramsci (Oct 5, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> guessing based on the info in the public domain - just like everyone else on the thread.



In post 151 you say the following. 

As you stated earlier you hadn't been looking at news when did this change?



> I'm not getting my information from newspaper reports... Never mind, this thread is a mess so I'm opting out for now.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 5, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> another fallen gang member and professional criminal. live by the sword...



Ah yes this is what you really think.

To remind posters here reposted it

You've already tried him and given your verdict.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 5, 2022)

DaphneM said:


> Reasonable possibly but not sensible



It can be hard to make sensible decisions when you know you're at risk of being arbitrarily murdered for no fucking reason.


----------



## edcraw (Oct 5, 2022)

Depressing how quick people are to blame Chris Kaba despite being proven wrong previously.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 5, 2022)

Smick said:


> Sorry, it’s a force of habit not to read GarveyLives links.


 
Same with me. 80% of the time GarveyLives is a wind up merchant. 20% of time he posts up informative links.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> Ah yes this is what you really think.
> 
> To remind posters here reposted it
> 
> You've already tried him and given your verdict.


Where's the lie?


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 5, 2022)

Memories of what happened on June 7.  Deji Omishore tortured with a taser until he jumped off Chelsea Bridge.  The news and the police initially said he was armed with a screwdriver. It was a firelighter.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 5, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Where's the lie?



You be better off staying off this thread as you earlier said you would.

You tried this man and don't have a problem with him being shot by the police.

So lets cut the crap here please.

Instead of popping up here to comment.

You've made your views clear to posters.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2022)

story said:


> So you made a guess. You guessed that he was trying to run over a policeman.
> 
> The only facts we had at the time was that a Black man had been shot dead by a policeman.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but that's just a load of equally prejudiced guesswork based on "ACAB" and your desire to frame the copper. Turned his life around? Come on, you're as biased as you claim I am. 

And please don't call me racist.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> You be better off staying off this thread as you earlier said you would.
> 
> You tried this man and don't have a problem with him being shot by the police.
> 
> ...


Right, so you can't refute the evidence that he was a gang member and criminal.


----------



## pbsmooth (Oct 5, 2022)

There's an eyewitness who literally said exactly what I'm now saying it appears happened. The whataboutery isnt coming from my side.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 5, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> Independent Office for Police Conduct statement read out at opening of inquest into the death of Chris Kaba on 4 October 2022



I find the police terminology Orwellian. 

Its as though the police are rational dispassionate social actors. 

"enforced stop extraction"

"inline extraction"

Makes it sound like a technical exercise.

I've been reading Elkins book Legacy of Violence

Its history of later British Empire. Keep getting reminded of it as the ways Empire kept its colonial subjects in line is similar to way policing operates in now. British Empire was very good at dressing up its subjection of colonial people as rational and they were the ones who brought the full force of Imperial policing on themselves.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 5, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Right, so you can't refute the evidence that he was a gang member and criminal.



Your whole posting here has been to argue that he deserved to be shot by the police.

Like that this is ok.

That is your point of view. Fine.

It is not mine.

Myself I'm not keen that the Police should be supported for being Judge , Jury and Executioner.

Nor has it happens do the authorities in theory.

But your saying it how it is etc.

Unlike a snowflake like me.


----------



## edcraw (Oct 5, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> There's an eyewitness who literally said exactly what I'm now saying it appears happened. The whataboutery isnt coming from my side.


Fuck me - you’re believing the “eyewitness” just as people believed there was a chase.

I don’t even think we could probably solely blame the police officer here - it seems like it’s terrible police tactics and seems they learnt nothing from the Duggan case.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 5, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> There's an eyewitness who literally said exactly what I'm now saying it appears happened. The whataboutery isnt coming from my side.


The witness was quoted in this Standard article. Some of it might be true. We don't know yet. But the witness does sound a bit naive. He's unable to put himself in the shoes of a black guy in London who has guns pointed at him by the police. Rapper dies after being shot by police in Streatham


----------



## edcraw (Oct 5, 2022)

The eyewitness is almost certainly a police officer. The IOPC statement makes that even clearer - if Chris Duggan didn’t know he was being followed then presumably nothing would have drawn attention to anyone nearby until the last minute. Few houses overlook the spot and hardly anyone would be walking down there at night.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 5, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> There's an eyewitness who literally said exactly what I'm now saying it appears happened. The whataboutery isnt coming from my side.


Eyewitness quotes in the media are notoriously reliable, eh? Like those ones that witnessed the shooting of Charles Jean De Mendez... 

"Mark Whitby, a witness to the shooting, told Reuters that he observed Menezes wearing a large winter coat, which "looked out of place"....Vivien Figueiredo, a cousin of Menezes, was later told by police that Menezes was wearing a denim jacket on the day of the shooting....Anthony Larkin, another eyewitness, told the BBC that Menezes appeared to be wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out [....] 
No device resembling a bomb belt was reported as found. Menezes was also not carrying a tool bag, since he had left it with his colleague the previous evening. According to the report on leaked IPCC documents, Menezes was wearing a pair of jeans and a light denim jacket. This was confirmed by a photo of his body on the floor of the carriage after the shooting"
[...]
"Witnesses stated that up to twenty police officers in plain clothes pursued Menezes into Stockwell station, that he jumped over the ticket barrier, ran down an escalator and tried to jump onto a train...The Menezes family was briefed by the police that their son did not jump over the ticket barrier and used a Travelcard to pass through; this was subsequently confirmed by CCTV recordings shown at the Metropolitan Police trial."


----------



## Smick (Oct 6, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Right, so you can't refute the evidence that he was a gang member and criminal.


It wasn’t his car. 

Who or whatever Chris Kaba was did not matter because the police hadn’t identified him when they shot him. 

It could have been a car thief, a mechanic on a test drive, or someone who simply borrowed it. There are any number of reasons to be in someone else’s car.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 10, 2022)

This was an interesting watch. Live event streamed from Manchester University. A panel discussion, chaired by award-winning writer, historian and broadcaster, Prof David Olusoga on the effects of conspiracy and joint enterprise laws in racialising and criminalising particular communities and cultures. 

The 4th speaker specifically dealt with the use of drill music in joint enterprise trials. A dog whistle.
The first speaker was Nazir Afzal, recently appointed Chancellor of Manchester University and former DPP. He was taken aback by the cases cited of joint enterprise and rap lyric evidence. Including the blind youth who got a joint enterprise life sentence for murder when he couldn't even see what was going on.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 5, 2022)

Four men appeared in court at the end of October charged with conspiracy to murder in connection with a 23-year old victim who was shot dead in a club on 30 August. There would have been five men appearing if Kaba was still alive, as he is alleged to have been a key participant in the murder.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 5, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Four men appeared in court at the end of October charged with conspiracy to murder in connection with a 23-year old victim who was shot dead in a club on 30 August. There would have been five men appearing if Kaba was still alive, as he is alleged to have been a key participant in the murder.


Unfortunately your media source is behind the Telegraph paywall - though the Daily Mail relays the information here








						Chris Kaba suspected of being among five men in a nightclub gun attack
					

Mr Kaba, 24, was allegedly part of a group of five men who went to a Notting Hill Carnival after-party in east London in the early hours of August 30.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Four men appeared in court at the end of October charged with conspiracy to murder in connection with a 23-year old victim who was shot dead in a club on 30 August. There would have been five men appearing if Kaba was still alive, as he is alleged to have been a key participant in the murder.


a 23 year old victim who as it turns out was not shot dead. so ck could not have been a key participant in a murder that never was. i'm not surprised to see you posting such bollocks, you've a clear agenda on this thread to suggest chris kaba had it coming, following an obvious police agenda.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 5, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> a 23 year old victim who as it turns out was not shot dead. so ck could not have been a key participant in a murder that never was.



He survived the shooting, that's ok then. Thanks for reading the Mail for me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> He survived the shooting, that's ok then. Thanks for reading the Mail for me.


it's plain you don't do facts


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Nov 7, 2022)

The club in question was Oval Space which consequently lost it license due to these arseholes who think its ok human behaviour to go around shooting people they don't like.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> The club in question was Oval Space which consequently lost it license due to these arseholes who think its ok human behaviour to go around shooting people they don't like.


It's a bit more complicated than that because the council adduced poor management of the venue, and failings like not searching bags properly have been reported. But all this is a smokescreen from the way Chris kaba has been brought into this, to suggest that he was the sort of person it's OK for the cops to shoot.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 7, 2022)

Reading these recent posts and previous posts. Some posters believe that Chris Kaba had it coming to him.

So Met were justified in killing him as he's one less "arsehole" on the streets.

Or did I get the wrong end of the stick?

As it appears this is the kind of law and order policy some posters here want?

Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 7, 2022)

Playing the half-way Devil’s Advocate stance here, but regardless of whether he had it coming to him, the case has to rest on whether the police were justified in killing him _in that particular instance_.

The argument shouldn’t be diverted into being about whether we have surplus cunts, it should be about whether we have death squads.


----------



## Diamond (Nov 8, 2022)

Choose your heroes carefully is always good advice.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 8, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Right, so you can't refute the evidence that he was a gang member and criminal.



You're aware that being 'a criminal' doesn't carry the death penalty in this country?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

8ball said:


> Playing the half-way Devil’s Advocate stance here, but regardless of whether he had it coming to him, the case has to rest on whether the police were justified in killing him _in that particular instance_.
> 
> The argument shouldn’t be diverted into being about whether we have surplus cunts, it should be about whether we have death squads.


We do have death squads


----------



## David Clapson (Nov 8, 2022)

Around 2006 I met a probationery police officer who was a former Army sniper and was being fast-tracked into a police firearms job in the Met. There was a shortage of firearms officers and he was one of a number of soldiers who had been recruited to fill the gap. There seemed to be almost no ordinary policing in his working week. I'd love to know how well soldiers have adapted to the Met's rules of engagement. Could be an interesting FOI question for someone?


----------



## CH1 (Nov 8, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Around 2006 I met a probationery police officer who was a former Army sniper and was being fast-tracked into a police firearms job in the Met. There was a shortage of firearms officers and he was one of a number of soldiers who had been recruited to fill the gap. There seemed to be almost no ordinary policing in his working week. I'd love to know how well soldiers have adapted to the Met's rules of engagement. Could be an interesting FOI question for someone?


I met a couple of SPG officers on Clapham Common back around 1983 - in military fatigues. Naively thought they were ordinary punters dressed up for kicks. Unfortunately a police car appeared with headlights full on, the two dudes arrested me and bundled me into the back seat between them "We'll see if he's not talking when he's been in the station a few days!"

Like that you mean?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Around 2006 I met a probationery police officer who was a former Army sniper and was being fast-tracked into a police firearms job in the Met. There was a shortage of firearms officers and he was one of a number of soldiers who had been recruited to fill the gap. There seemed to be almost no ordinary policing in his working week. I'd love to know how well soldiers have adapted to the Met's rules of engagement. Could be an interesting FOI question for someone?


go on then


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 12, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Yeah and I've got lived experience of fucking murderous drug gangs.


Well, obviously not personal experience of their murderousness, soft lad.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 12, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> If there was no chase it could probably be proven with video evidence from all sorts of cameras, plus the GPS trackers fitted to many police cars, and the GPS in all the officers' phones. (There'd probably be 9 officers, because armed reponse vehicles usually work in threes. )
> 
> Edit: and the police control room cooperates with chases. Senior officers have to be notified of some chases. I would think that three armed reponse vehicles chasing a vehicle with a firearms ANPR tag is something that the senior officer in the control room would be informed of immediately. Plus the senior officer is supposed to give permission for ramming, if circumstances permit. So you'd have to get a very large number of officers, including at least one inspector, to tell the same lie, if you want to concoct a chase.
> 
> ...


If you've ever been involved in a court case where your lawyer asks for discovery of police video records, you'll know just how often such evidence conveniently "goes missing" if it'll show the Met's Finest in a bad light, or that the camera was "damaged", or that the hard drive the CCTV was stored on "was faulty", etc etc fucking etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 12, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Around 2006 I met a probationery police officer who was a former Army sniper and was being fast-tracked into a police firearms job in the Met. There was a shortage of firearms officers and he was one of a number of soldiers who had been recruited to fill the gap. There seemed to be almost no ordinary policing in his working week. I'd love to know how well soldiers have adapted to the Met's rules of engagement. Could be an interesting FOI question for someone?


A former army sniper would find no trouble in adapting to Met RoEs. This is because the Met's Armed Response officers are mostly man-babies who'd never have cut it in the army, where the likelihood of being shot back at, is so much higher. Yer Army man could forget most of his training, & he'd still be better than the Met's weekend warriors.

I used to have barnies with a former met "detective" who posted here about just how poorly-trained Met AROs are. They're adrenalin-fueled berks who haven't had to learn to keep cool under fire. They're kids playing Cowboys & fucking Indians for the most part.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 12, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I met a couple of SPG officers on Clapham Common back around 1983 - in military fatigues. Naively thought they were ordinary punters dressed up for kicks. Unfortunately a police car appeared with headlights full on, the two dudes arrested me and bundled me into the back seat between them "We'll see if he's not talking when he's been in the station a few days!"
> 
> Like that you mean?


TBF, if I saw a couple of coppers in military fatigues on Clapham Common, I'd just assume they were cruising.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> Yeah and I've got lived experience of fucking murderous drug gangs.


Do tell me how you fucked a murderous drug gang


----------



## CH1 (Nov 13, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, if I saw a couple of coppers in military fatigues on Clapham Common, I'd just assume they were cruising.


That was the obvious intention(on their part). Have you not heard of agents provocateurs?


			https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1984-05-14/debates/c42e04a0-d519-4abf-9df5-d83a336717b5/PowersOfArrestForOffencesContraryToSection32OfTheSexualOffencesAct1956
		


BTW knowing you are I do and comparing your demeanour to my own "Gentle Jesus meak and mild" approach to life, I suspect you might have ended up with longer than the two hours I spent in Lavender Hill Police Station.

I was only questioned about a murder that had taken place the previous night. Truculence can lead to a charge of resisting arrest - more serious, as I'm sure you appreciate. But not as serious as flashing your tool in the pitch dark


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Do tell me how you fucked a murderous drug gang


pbsmooth


----------



## CH1 (Nov 14, 2022)

Stormzy opens up.. Stormzy opens up on the ‘unbearable pain’ facing family of Chris Kaba


----------



## 8ball (Nov 14, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Stormzy opens up.. Stormzy opens up on the ‘unbearable pain’ facing family of Chris Kaba



Is there anything there to indicate why Stormzy's opinion should have any bearing?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Nov 15, 2022)

8ball said:


> Is there anything there to indicate why Stormzy's opinion should have any bearing?


Its not about his opinion.  He's  using his platform to keep the issue of justice  alive and to reflect the pain suffered by Chris Kaba's family


----------



## 8ball (Nov 15, 2022)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Its not about his opinion.  He's  using his platform to keep the issue of justice  alive and to reflect the pain suffered by Chris Kaba's family



His opinion is obviously a factor.  If I was shot by police while trying to ram a car into them a lot of my parents' pain would be tied up with what they did wrong to lead to that.

That's one opinion about what happened, obviously (and as I've said on this thread, I don't know, and the focus needs to be on whether the police's behaviour could be justified), but if Stormzy shared _that_ opinion I think he would be stating things differently.

However, it's appalling that the bodycam footage hasn't been released yet.  That should have happened weeks ago, and it's totally understandable that this should lead to suspicions.


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Nov 15, 2022)

Hopefully some of the local young gang members (probably known to Chris Kaba), the ones who go around armed with guns and knives and don't mind using them sometimes, will read this and have a think about their futures and whether they want to put their own parents through similar grief when they end up in prison or on a mortuary slab.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> Hopefully some of the local young gang members (probably known to Chris Kaba), the ones who go around armed with guns and knives and don't mind using them sometimes, will read this and have a think about their futures and whether they want to put their own parents through similar grief when they end up in prison or on a mortuary slab.


A sorry variation on the theme of he deserved it


----------



## Mr paulee (Nov 15, 2022)

Pretty sure any family or parent would be feeling what the Kaba's must be going though.
Not sure that needs pointing out by musician in a fashion magazine, platform or not.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 15, 2022)

8ball said:


> His opinion is obviously a factor.  If I was shot by police while trying to ram a car into them a lot of my parents' pain would be tied up with what they did wrong to lead to that.



Is this what happened? I thought his car was stopped. What the police call a "hard stop". It was after his car was stationary that he was shot. Or did I miss something?

I believe his parents are more "tied up" with why he was shot dead by the police.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

Mr paulee said:


> Pretty sure any family or parent would be feeling what the Kaba's must be going though.
> Not sure that needs pointing out by musician in a fashion magazine, platform or not.


in an interview the person being interviewed responds to questions by the interviewer. presumably stormzy was asked about this and gave his response.


----------



## Mr paulee (Nov 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> in an interview the person being interviewed responds to questions by the interviewer. presumably stormzy was asked about this and gave his response.


Thanks - i am aware of how media interviews work.
Or out of respect for the Kaba's and the quest to find out the truth to what happened on 5/10, he could just keep quiet and have his Press/PR people veto the question. Especially when I presume he would be aware of the questions beforehand.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

Mr paulee said:


> Thanks - i am aware of how media interviews work.
> Or out of respect for the Kaba's and the quest to find out the truth to what happened on 5/10, he could just keep quiet and have his Press/PR people veto the question. Especially when I presume he would be aware of the questions beforehand.


i don't think it's respectful of the family to veto questions like that and refuse to give an opinion. the only people such an attitude assists are the police.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 15, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> Is this what happened? I thought his car was stopped. What the police call a "hard stop". It was after his car was stationary that he was shot. Or did I miss something?



Yeah, seems like you did.


----------



## Mr paulee (Nov 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think it's respectful of the family to veto questions like that and refuse to give an opinion. the only people such an attitude assists are the police.


No, it doesn't help the police. This incident won't go away for the Met, whether Stormzy or anyone else talks about it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

Mr paulee said:


> No, it doesn't help the police. This incident won't go away for the Met, whether Stormzy or anyone else talks about it.


yes, it does help the police. not talking about the murder of chris kaba does help the police. policing what people say about the murder of chris kaba does help the police.


----------



## Mr paulee (Nov 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, it does help the police. not talking about the murder of chris kaba does help the police. policing what people say about the murder of chris kaba does help the police.


Again no it doesn't. 
No-one is policing what anybody says in this instance. Stormzy hasn't been issued with some sort of gagging order or injunction, which in choosing to speak to a high end fashion magazine, he's broken.
He's made a choice - a quite condescending one in talking about unbearable pain, which is obvious to anyone who has lost family in such circumstances.
Public feeling (as I have said) won't change in respect to this, despite however long Met takes. High profile opinions on whatever platforms will have zero influence on helping the Kaba's get the answers and justice they deserve.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 15, 2022)

Mr paulee said:


> Public feeling (as I have said) won't change in respect to this, despite however long Met takes.



Not sure about this, the longer they take over stuff like this bodycam footage, the iffier it feels to me.


----------



## Mr paulee (Nov 15, 2022)

8ball said:


> Not sure about this, the longer they take over stuff like this bodycam footage, the iffier it feels to me.


When I stated public feeling I meant I meant in relation to wanting the correct outcome.
If the Met tried to do something 'iffy' with the BC footage, I am sure independent qualified experts would be able to spot any issues.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

Mr paulee said:


> Again no it doesn't.
> No-one is policing what anybody says in this instance. Stormzy hasn't been issued with some sort of gagging order or injunction, which in choosing to speak to a high end fashion magazine, he's broken.
> He's made a choice - a quite condescending one in talking about unbearable pain, which is obvious to anyone who has lost family in such circumstances.
> Public feeling (as I have said) won't change in respect to this, despite however long Met takes. High profile opinions on whatever platforms will have zero influence on helping the Kaba's get the answers and justice they deserve.


you're going all 'he should have respected the family and kept quiet / vetoed the question'. for me that's policing people's speech. that's you saying what you think other people should be (not) saying


----------



## Mr paulee (Nov 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> you're going all 'he should have respected the family and kept quiet / vetoed the question'. for me that's policing people's speech. that's you saying what you think other people should be (not) saying


Again, no.
You've misunderstood (or I haven't made it clear enough) - sorry for that.

Leave it there


----------



## David Clapson (Nov 15, 2022)

Mr paulee said:


> When I stated public feeling I meant I meant in relation to wanting the correct outcome.
> If the Met tried to do something 'iffy' with the BC footage, I am sure independent qualified experts would be able to spot any issues.


Your opposition to Stormzy makes absolutely zero sense. If anything we need more publicity for the issue, more public figures using their platform to pressure the Met to hurry up the investigation. We need headlines every week until we get answers. Let's have musicians, footballers, even Instagrammers speaking out. Anyone who can get press attention should pitch in.


----------



## Mr paulee (Nov 15, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Your opposition to Stormzy makes absolutely zero sense. If anything we need more publicity for the issue, more public figures using their platform to pressure the Met to hurry up the investigation. We need headlines every week until we get answers. Let's have musicians, footballers, even Instagrammers speaking out. Anyone who can get press attention should pitch in.


'Hurry up the investigation'

I want it done correctly and above board, not quickly because of celebrity pressure.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 15, 2022)

Mr paulee said:


> 'Hurry up the investigation'
> 
> I want it done correctly and above board, not quickly because of celebrity pressure.



Depends whether the Met are dragging their feet, hoping it drops off (or lower down), the media agenda.


----------



## David Clapson (Nov 15, 2022)

I'm very suspicious of anyone who wants less public outrage about this killing. We need much more. The same goes for the death of Deji Omishore. A riot outside Brixton police station would have been justified. The 1981 riot/uprising did a lot of good. The Rec was built, laws and procedures were overhauled and police/community consultation was increased. The difficulty with riots is that they degenerate into looting of shops and damage to the homes and businesses of innocent people.


----------



## Mr paulee (Nov 15, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> 'm very suspicious of anyone who wants less public outrage about this killing.


I repeat, i want it done correctly and above board.
If that takes time, then so be it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I'm very suspicious of anyone who wants less public outrage about this killing. We need much more. The same goes for the death of Deji Omishore. A riot outside Brixton police station would have been justified. The 1981 riot/uprising did a lot of good. The Rec was built, laws and procedures were overhauled and police/community consultation was increased. The difficulty with riots is that they degenerate into looting of shops and damage to the homes and businesses of innocent people.


a riot inside brixton police station would be better


----------



## CH1 (Nov 15, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I'm very suspicious of anyone who wants less public outrage about this killing. We need much more. The same goes for the death of Deji Omishore. A riot outside Brixton police station would have been justified. The 1981 riot/uprising did a lot of good. The Rec was built, laws and procedures were overhauled and police/community consultation was increased. The difficulty with riots is that they degenerate into looting of shops and damage to the homes and businesses of innocent people.


Sorry - the rec was actually moth-balled in course of a 10 year strike at the time of the riot.






About the Rec​The Brixton Recreation Centre was designed in 1970 by a team led by George Finch – the son of a milkman – and was constructed between 1974-1985.
(Brixton Buzz.)
God knows where you get the history of the industrial disputes and the temporary "capping out"
Years of reading old South London Presses in the Minet Library perhaps?


----------



## Athos (Nov 15, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Your opposition to Stormzy makes absolutely zero sense. If anything we need more publicity for the issue, more public figures using their platform to pressure the Met to hurry up the investigation. We need headlines every week until we get answers. Let's have musicians, footballers, even Instagrammers speaking out. Anyone who can get press attention should pitch in.


You're right that the investigation should be done as quickly a possible (without jeopardising quality, of course).  But it's not the MPS doing it; it's the IOPC (they estimated six to nine months).


----------



## David Clapson (Nov 15, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Sorry - the rec was actually moth-balled in course of a 10 year strike at the time of the riot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. So the Rec being a 'reward' for the riot is just an urban myth. Blimey. I've heard it repeated by so many people over the years.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 15, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I'm very suspicious of anyone who wants less public outrage about this killing. We need much more. The same goes for the death of Deji Omishore. A riot outside Brixton police station would have been justified. The 1981 riot/uprising did a lot of good. The Rec was built, laws and procedures were overhauled and police/community consultation was increased. The difficulty with riots is that they degenerate into looting of shops and damage to the homes and businesses of innocent people.



Agreed.

On the history. 81 riot/uprising was sparked off by over zealous policing - Operation Swamp.

The more relevant one would be the 85 riot / uprising. Where a mother was shot in her own home when the police were searching for her son. Her son was no saint but the issue was the police shooting and almost killing someone. In her case she was disabled for life. Took police decades to publicly apologise. 

I remember both. 






						1985 Brixton riot - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


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## CH1 (Nov 15, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Thanks. So the Rec being a 'reward' for the riot is just an urban myth. Blimey. I've heard it repeated by so many people over the years.


It would be more accurate to say it was a beneficiary of the abolition of the GLC. When the Rec opened it was for a couple of years referred to as the GLC Brixton Recreation Centre. It just so happened that Lambeth didn't have the money to finish off the building but the GLC had reserves to spend at that time as it was being abolished and wound up by Mrs Thatcher's government. I guess we are all thankful that Red Ken & co chose to fund the completion of the Rec.

This might possibly have been a reward for Lambeth nurturing the political careers of Red Ken and Tony Banks and their camaraderie with Ted Knight and his administration? Who can say?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 17, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Do tell me how you fucked a murderous drug gang


Gingerly.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 17, 2022)

CH1 said:


> That was the obvious intention(on their part). Have you not heard of agents provocateurs?
> 
> 
> https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1984-05-14/debates/c42e04a0-d519-4abf-9df5-d83a336717b5/PowersOfArrestForOffencesContraryToSection32OfTheSexualOffencesAct1956


The army coppers used to do similar in clubs in garrison towns, trying to weed out those they thought "unfit" to serve. Coppers are the same the world over - always going for the easy case, never the hard cases (in either meaning of the term).


CH1 said:


> BTW knowing you are I do and comparing your demeanour to my own "Gentle Jesus meak and mild" approach to life, I suspect you might have ended up with longer than the two hours I spent in Lavender Hill Police Station.
> 
> I was only questioned about a murder that had taken place the previous night. Truculence can lead to a charge of resisting arrest - more serious, as I'm sure you appreciate. But not as serious as flashing your tool in the pitch dark


Oh, I'm not truculent. Far from it. What I am is well-aware of my rights - generally more aware than members of the constabulary - & a charge of resisting arrest would just be a cherry on top of the cake, once I reached court. Bullying only works if the bully senses fear. I've walked out of a magistrate's court 7 times so far in 35 years, after showing the officer(s) involved to be liars/aspiring fiction authors.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 17, 2022)

Mr paulee said:


> Thanks - i am aware of how media interviews work.
> Or out of respect for the Kaba's and the quest to find out the truth to what happened on 5/10, he could just keep quiet and have his Press/PR people veto the question. Especially when I presume he would be aware of the questions beforehand.


He's a local chap. He grew up with some of the same people that Kaba looked up to. This is well-known, which is probably why he was asked about it in the 1st place.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 17, 2022)

Mr paulee said:


> 'Hurry up the investigation'
> 
> I want it done correctly and above board, not quickly because of celebrity pressure.


Correctly & above board - the IOPC, with its investigative staff mostly ex-police, aren't well-known for doing this sort of thing "correctly & above board". It's why so many of their "independent inquiries" end up going before the courts again.


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## Casaubon (Nov 22, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Thanks. So the Rec being a 'reward' for the riot is just an urban myth. Blimey. I've heard it repeated by so many people over the years.


IIRC, the Rec was originally equipped with a shooting range, which wasn't brought into use when the centre opened in '83 or '84(?). I asked about it a few times and was told that it would open in due course, but it was quietly allowed to become storage.


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## David Clapson (Nov 22, 2022)

Casaubon said:


> IIRC, the Rec was originally equipped with a shooting range, which wasn't brought into use when the centre opened in '83 or '84(?). I asked about it a few times and was told that it would open in due course, but it was quietly allowed to become storage.


I had a look at it once. It's in the basement. It had been used a bit - there were holes in the curtain thingy which stops rounds hitting the wall. There was a big armoury with thick doors and bars etc. Apparently the public were consulted about which sports they wanted in the Rec, and shooting was high up their list.


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## A380 (Nov 22, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> Correctly & above board - the IOPC, with its investigative staff mostly ex-police, aren't well-known for doing this sort of thing "correctly & above board". It's why so many of their "independent inquiries" end up going before the courts again.



IOPC are fucking useless, they are moving away from ex cops to training their own ‘investigators’ They are taking months  for simple investigations and years, literally , for anything complex. The only people who hate them more than ACAB types are the old bill.


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## David Clapson (Nov 28, 2022)

This could get interesting. IOPC on the rack: Chelsea Bridge death: family bring test case against police watchdog I hope there's a good law firm involved.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> This could get interesting. IOPC on the rack: Chelsea Bridge death: family bring test case against police watchdog I hope there's a good law firm involved.


if you bothered doing a moment's digging you'd know they're using hickman and rose Chelsea Bridge taser death man's family call in lawyers over police investigation


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## Winot (Nov 28, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> This could get interesting. IOPC on the rack: Chelsea Bridge death: family bring test case against police watchdog I hope there's a good law firm involved.


Good


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## Mr paulee (Dec 3, 2022)

Police watchdog head resigns over investigation into historical allegation
					

Michael Lockwood, director general of IOPC since 2018, leaves post with immediate effect




					www.theguardian.com


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## David Clapson (Dec 4, 2022)

Mr paulee said:


> Police watchdog head resigns over investigation into historical allegation
> 
> 
> Michael Lockwood, director general of IOPC since 2018, leaves post with immediate effect
> ...


He had a relationship with an underage girl in his 20s archive.ph


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## Mr paulee (Dec 5, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> He had a relationship with an underage girl in his 20s archive.ph


Reason for posting the original Guardian link, was if the IOPC have this kind of issues at the top, the inquiry into Kaba case may take a while


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