# "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." So what do those who can't teach anymore do...?



## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

After some sustained provocation, I think my career in teaching is coming to a close.  I first trained in the pre-ofsted era, and when I compare that to how things are now... it's an entirely different profession. Workload, pressure, morale...  all turned to the kind of shit that saw me hoping someone would crash into my car on my way to work yesterday and just wipe me out for good.

And I'm not alone.

But what do you do when you're almost forty and you have to start again?  

I left teaching once before, but I was 25 and I could afford to take a graduate job.  What I did find then, was that having 'teacher' on your CV was a positive disadvantage. I've read in thhe meantime an article about recruiters openly saying that they wouldn't want to employ an ex teacher because they think they'll be bossy, won't have transferable skills and won't be used to hard work.  

For myself, I'm considering my options.  I'll be doing nothing before the summer so there's time.  Looking into a part time dramatherapy MA, if I can afford the fees and to pay the mortgage supply teaching...   but I might not be accepted: there's only one uni in the SE that does it part time.   And until I do a two day taster course in december, I won't really know if it's my thing anyway.  And even if it is, apparently dramatherapy jobs are very hard to come by, especially full-time.

It's scary as fuck.


Anyway...  suggestions of suitable career paths? 

Would you employ a teacher?

Have you switched careers in middle age with a mortgage to pay?


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## catinthehat (Sep 24, 2013)

What about different sectors of education - or cross the border for a Gove free system.  We are loosing far to many good teachers because of the amount of arse they have to put up with.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

catinthehat said:


> What about different sectors of education - or cross the border for a Gove free system.  We are loosing far to many good teachers because of the amount of arse they have to put up with.


just bought a house and, frankly seriously attached to london... so relocation not an option.

i've applied for several private schools over the years, and while my state school application to interview conversion rate is about 40%, i've never had a single reply from public schools.  i think it's quite nepotistic, and a grammer school > reinvented polytechnic education history is not the kind of old school tie they look for.


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## Thora (Sep 24, 2013)

Are you interested in educational psychology at all?


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Thora said:


> Are you interested in educational psychology at all?


maybe. i think i assumed it'd need a phd.


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## Thora (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> maybe. i think i assumed it'd need a phd.


I *think* you have to be a qualified teacher and then it is a masters course - a teacher where I work has been talking about doing it.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Thora said:


> I *think* you have to be a qualified teacher and then it is a masters course - a teacher where I work has been talking about doing it.


hmm - the dfe page says  it's a three year full time doctorate...


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> hmm - the dfe page says  it's a three year full time doctorate...


and also that your first degree needs to be in psychology, or else that you have to do an additional one year conversion course.


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## Thimble Queen (Sep 24, 2013)

Gah. Properly shit when going to work makes you feel like that. 

Have you considered taking a bit of time off to give you the head space to work out your options? 

Also what happened to your floristry stuff. You're really good at that


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## bmd (Sep 24, 2013)

Nothing to add except my support in what must be a really difficult time for you. Fwiw, you seem to have exactly the kind of qualities that any employer would be really lucky to have. Good luck.


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## 8ball (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> . I've read in thhe meantime an article about recruiters openly saying that they wouldn't want to employ an ex teacher because they think they'll be bossy, won't have transferable skills and won't be used to hard work.


 
I couldn't comment on the 'bossy' bit, but they're avin a laugh with the second two parts ffs.


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## purenarcotic (Sep 24, 2013)

What do you enjoy doing, spangles?  Is there any scope for going into schools to do drama workshops etc, or are you looking more for something that would give you a steady, monthly income?


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## golightly (Sep 24, 2013)

Is adult education an option or would you find the same problems as you're experiencing now?


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## equationgirl (Sep 24, 2013)

Have you thought about what you really don't want to do, other than teaching, spanglechick ? Sometimes I find that thinking about the things I wouldn't like to do helps me to identify what I do like.

Here's a few things from the HE sector which might appeal:
http://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/AHF385/course-leader-ma-mfa-acting-international/
http://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/AHH013/drama-technician-x2/
http://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/AHG532/marketing-manager/

I think you have a lot of transferable skills that would be valuable to employers who aren't short-sighted arseholes


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## Maurice Picarda (Sep 24, 2013)

Presentation training? In my experience, delivered by oddsters who have trained thesps and then taken on corporate jobs in search of cash.


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## Hocus Eye. (Sep 24, 2013)

(((spanglechick)))

I hope you find a suitable escape route to something worthwhile.


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## Santino (Sep 24, 2013)

International Woman of Mystery


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## Orang Utan (Sep 24, 2013)

golightly said:


> Is adult education an option or would you find the same problems as you're experiencing now?


I think that could be a goer.
My sister does drama workshops for excluded kids. That could be another way to go.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

i need a full-time job.  I'm rubbish at being self-employed, ime.

the floristry thing was, i quiickly discovered, a non-starter.  People resented/were shocked by the prices when i was doing it for cost, and even paying myself minimum wage would have doubled, and in some cases trebled that.

what i like doing: writing, working with kids, esp teenagers, presenting stuff, teaching :rolleyeyes: (i mean, explaining how to do stuff so people get it, i suppose), fannying around in matters theatrical, shopping, sleeping singing.

what i don't like: being relentlessly inspected, observed, scrutinised - with a presumption of incompetence and a sense of waiting for you to fail; michael gove; not knowing where my next mortgage payment is coming from; working more than 10 hours a day as a matter of course; 


The further education system seems to be part-time and not well paid, compared to secondary teaching.  I wouldn't walk into it either, as it's been fifteen years since i last taught A level. 

Training is maybe a possibility (the mother of my odd-daughter is a training manager for some big company), but i'd be on an entry-level salary and i'm not a very 'corporate' person.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Have you thought about what you really don't want to do, other than teaching, spanglechick ? Sometimes I find that thinking about the things I wouldn't like to do helps me to identify what I do like.
> 
> Here's a few things from the HE sector which might appeal:
> http://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/AHF385/course-leader-ma-mfa-acting-international/
> ...


thanks for taking the time but i'm not qualified to do any of those jobs. all those kinds of things are really competitive to get into at generally much lower levels.


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## _pH_ (Sep 24, 2013)

What about supply teaching rather than full time at the same school? Is that a possibility? My mum (taught for 30+ years) got so pissed off with all the relentless paperwork etc. at the school she taught at for most of her career that she semi-retired and did supply instead. It gave her a chance to work at different schools, and choose when and more importantly where she wanted to work (they would ring up offering her work and if she didn't like the school she'd turn it down).

I know you're nowhere near retirement, but perhaps combine supply teaching with something else, maybe the floristry?


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## Maurice Picarda (Sep 24, 2013)

I can put you in touch with a freelance if you like. Apprenticeship/collaboration/referrals might be something to try if you start something else part time.


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## chilango (Sep 24, 2013)

It's shit.

Tired of banging my head against a brick wall trying, and failing, to get a teaching job I've started to look elsewhere.

Nowt.

I've been applying for a huge range of stuff and quite willing to take a serious pay cut (20k less than I'd get teaching) and still nothing.

Transferable skills are all well and good but right now you're competing against people who have the specific skills/training/experience for any given role.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 24, 2013)

Are you sure it is teaching in schools you want to give up? It might be just your school that's doing your head in. I've only worked in one school so far, so could be talking shit, but no one there seems to have to work as hard as you do or seem to be put under so much pressure, though there are the usual grumbles.


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## miss direct (Sep 24, 2013)

Good luck spangles. 
I'm looking at moving into teacher training and possibly creating materials. 
I have to say though that I have no idea what the market is like in the UK for those things, but they're viable here.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> What about supply teaching rather than full time at the same school? Is that a possibility? My mum (taught for 30+ years) got so pissed off with all the relentless paperwork etc. at the school she taught at for most of her career that she semi-retired and did supply instead. It gave her a chance to work at different schools, and choose when and more importantly where she wanted to work (they would ring up offering her work and if she didn't like the school she'd turn it down).
> 
> I know you're nowhere near retirement, but perhaps combine supply teaching with something else, maybe the floristry?


the problem with supply, although it is the current plan for next september, in combination with the MA, is that since they changed the law and allowed schools to employ unqualified 'cover supervisors' at a fraction of the cost, that there just isn't enough cover to go around. hopefully it would pay the mortgage, but quite conceivably not much more. that's why i had to give up acting, nine years ago. the supply teaching just dried up.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Are you sure it is teaching in schools you want to give up? It might be just your school that's doing your head in. I've only worked in one school so far, so could be talking shit, but no one there seems to have to work as hard as you do or seem to be put under so much pressure, though there are the usual grumbles.


i think the problem is that my school is the way schools are going.  i'm tired of being a political and tabloid football.  i'm sick to tears of ofsted.  i'm an 'outstanding teacher' but what that means is purely that i spend half my time generating evidence for ofsted.

it's never going to be a better time for me to leave. who wants to be re training at 50+?  or for that matter never leaving teaching the peckham yoot at age 68.


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## xes (Sep 24, 2013)

What about teaching adults or something like that? 
There are lots of things you can apply the skills of being a teacher to. Doesn't have to be in school teaching, maybe you could be a home school teacher. Working with 1 or just a couple of families, being able to be a little more fluid with what you teach.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

miss direct said:


> Good luck spangles.
> I'm looking at moving into teacher training and possibly creating materials.
> I have to say though that I have no idea what the market is like in the UK for those things, but they're viable here.


i've thought about it.  i could certainly write some resources... but it wouldn't pay enough to live on.


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## chilango (Sep 24, 2013)

You also have to remember that along with the legions of teachers dropping out of the profession but wanting to use the skills and experience they developed there also tens of thousands of unemployed and underemployed teachers scrabbling around trying to get jobs as cover supervisors, TAs etc etc meaning even these former escape routes are becoming gladiatorial races to the bottom.

Sorry to sound all doom and gloom, but after a decade of teaching I've spent the last 18 months learning all this the hard way. 

Taking break to be a SAHD has proven to be absolute career suicide.


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## jakethesnake (Sep 24, 2013)

Do you have any interest in the substance misuse/addiction treatment field? Being able to explain things to groups of people (often young) is a key part of this work. Or related work with young offenders?


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

xes said:


> What about teaching adults or something like that?
> There are lots of things you can apply the skills of being a teacher to. Doesn't have to be in school teaching, maybe you could be a home school teacher. Working with 1 or just a couple of families, being able to be a little more fluid with what you teach.


as i say, further education is part time and not well paid.  i know a couple of FE lecturers and both of them have turned up on the first day of term to find their courses cancelled.

homeschool?  dunno - didn't realise people actually paid people to do that. will investigate.


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## purenarcotic (Sep 24, 2013)

What is the youth provision like where you're based?

It's been savaged here in Brum but I dunno if London has survived a little better.  I expect it would be a pay drop though, possibly a significant one.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

jakethesnake said:


> Do you have any interest in the substance misuse/addiction treatment field? Being able to explain things to groups of people (often young) is a key part of this work. Or related work with young offenders?


i've looked into youth work but i seriously wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage.  i certainly wouldn't mind working with young offenders (or adult prisoners, for that matter).  I like people.  that's kind of what appeals about dramatherapy.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> What is the youth provision like where you're based?
> 
> It's been savaged here in Brum but I dunno if London has survived a little better.  I expect it would be a pay drop though, possibly a significant one.


what do you mean by youth provision? sorry if that sounds dim...


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## Thora (Sep 24, 2013)

How much re-training would you be prepared/able to do?


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## silverfish (Sep 24, 2013)

My first flippant thought on reading thread title was ESTATE AGENT! 

Keeping your head above water while you work out a plan means doing what you are qual'd to do but with out the emotional investment, long time turmoil and stress. I presume the best route to this is supply teaching as diagnosed by other posters

Once a bit of balance happieness and choice have entered your life you can weigh up what you fancy

The world is your lobster. Do what you will get most satisfaction out of. 

One life and all of that cliched shit, but true. Its not a life if your work makes you sick.

I've just resigned from a pony job in a dying field, did a bit of study and start new career path in 5 weeks. 

Even if its shit I've reset my karma massively and should be able to take what ever is thrown at me for a reasonable period 

"the most interesting people I know didn’t know at 22 what they 
wanted to do with their lives, some of the most interesting 40 year 
olds I know still don’t. Get plenty of calcium. Be kind to your knees, you’ll miss them when they’re gone"

Bon chance


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Thora said:


> How much re-training would you be prepared/able to do?


i couldn't do anything full-time.  if it lead to a relatively well paid career (similar to teaching, i guess), then i'd certainly consider two or three years part time (as in, could be done alongside a full time job).


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

silverfish said:


> My first flippant thought on reading thread title was ESTATE AGENT!
> 
> Keeping your head above water while you work out a plan means doing what you are qual'd to do but with out the emotional investment, long time turmoil and stress. I presume the best route to this is supply teaching as diagnosed by other posters
> 
> ...


i love all that but... estate agent?

a few years back my sister was trying to get me to be a driving instructor. not me at all.


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## Thora (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i couldn't do anything full-time.  if it lead to a relatively well paid career (similar to teaching, i guess), then i'd certainly consider two or three years part time (as in, could be done alongside a full time job).


Hmm, that's quite tough.  Same as entry level teaching salary or the salary of an experienced teacher?


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

sorry - i'm being one of those negative twats, aren't i?  i'm trying not to be.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Thora said:


> Hmm, that's quite tough.  Same as entry level teaching salary or the salary of an experienced teacher?


oh entry level!  i know i'm going to have a massive paycut whatever happens.


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## miss direct (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i've thought about it.  i could certainly write some resources... but it wouldn't pay enough to live on.



Publishing companies hire people to write their materials and represent them at conferences. It's a huge market in ESL, don't know about drama, but it may be worth looking into.


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 24, 2013)

at it all

(although from my own school days  at the idea of liking people and being a teacher.  most of my teachers seemed to detest people - especially kids...)

only thing that immediately occurs to me is something in the museums field - often requires some educational experience.

snag is, the museums sector is also being ripped to shred by this shower of twunts who call themselves a government, and there seems to be a lot of competition for jobs...


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## purenarcotic (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> what do you mean by youth provision? sorry if that sounds dim...



No not dim at all, sorry for being less clear. 

Youth clubs, youth projects, PRU's, orgs that work with young people, predominantly (though not always) those who I guess would be described as 'troubled'.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> at it all
> 
> (although from my own school days  at the idea of liking people and being a teacher.  most of my teachers seemed to detest people - especially kids...)
> 
> ...


most teachers are people persons... you only remember the cunts.


museum jobs are massively competitive. and at entry level pay shockingly poorly.


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## Thora (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> oh entry level!  i know i'm going to have a massive paycut whatever happens.


Something like Speech and Language therapy has similar pay scales to teaching (£21k-£40k) and your first degree might be relevant enough for a 2 year accelerated training programme, but it would be full time I think.  I would really like to do this but all the universities that do it are clustered round London and the SE.


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## Thora (Sep 24, 2013)

How about something in PR/communications/writing?  Might have to be freelance though.


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## Dan U (Sep 24, 2013)

Good luck with whatever you choose to do spanglechick 

Only comment I have is that supply teacher rates of pay can be crap. My mrs was doing supply in Croydon for years at primary level and it wasn't great money and no holidays paid etc. Worked out about the same as an NQT 

Might be an issue if you have a mortgage

It's about the only professional job where day rates work out less than staff jobs I've ever come across


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> No not dim at all, sorry for being less clear.
> 
> Youth clubs, youth projects, PRU's, orgs that work with young people, predominantly (though not always) those who I guess would be described as 'troubled'.


PRUs would still be teaching work - but drama can't really be taught at prus - not at exam level anyway.  technical reasons.

youth work is really low paid.  cards on the table £25-28000 would make meeting the mortgage and bank loans a struggle.  less that that unless it was for a fixed period would be ruinous.

the only way to earn more is to qualify in a profession. hence drama therapy, which goes from nhs spine pints 6 to 8a.  which is very similar to teaching.


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## oryx (Sep 24, 2013)

I've no bright ideas as to what you can do, but just posting to say I left jobs with no job to go to at the ages of 35 and 43 and both times it was a wise decision I have never regretted. I ended up working in the same field but in a slightly different direction both times (via temping). 

Good luck - your current job sounds horribly stressful and from what you say in your OP it's putting you in a bad place.


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## existentialist (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Anyway...  suggestions of suitable career paths?
> 
> Would you employ a teacher?
> 
> Have you switched careers in middle age with a mortgage to pay?


I think you have to look at transferable skills. And that sometimes takes a little lateral thinking.

I am not a teacher, so could only possibly patronise you by suggesting how you'd do that, but it would seem to me that a teacher could quite easily move over to training in other areas, either in which they already have knowledge (got any hobbies that might have a market?), or, if they are reasonably good at acquiring knowledge, skilling up in new areas.

There's a move towards using things like Restorative Practice in schools, so getting skilled up there could put you in a position where you could operate as a trainer in schools (and perhaps not just schools, but businesses and organisations, too) that are rolling it out, and so on...


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## Orang Utan (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i've looked into youth work but i seriously wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage.  i certainly wouldn't mind working with young offenders (or adult prisoners, for that matter).  I like people.  that's kind of what appeals about dramatherapy.


I don't know how easy/hard these things are, but could you drop the mortgage and go back to renting? Renting is probably just as expensive now, mind.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Dan U said:


> Good luck with whatever you choose to do spanglechick
> 
> Only comment I have is that supply teacher rates of pay can be crap. My mrs was doing supply in Croydon for years at primary level and it wasn't great money and no holidays paid etc. Worked out about the same as an NQT
> 
> ...


yeah, that's pretty much how supply pay is calculated.  annual NQT salary divided by 195 (the number of teaching days in a school year). which is a pay cut enough, but of course you don't work anywhere near every day.

but if it a for a fixed period, say during an MA, I could take on the debts it would incur.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't know how easy/hard these things are, but could you drop the mortgage and go back to renting? Renting is probably just as expensive now, mind.


yeah, no - renting's no cheaper.  and we'd lose money on all the costs.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 24, 2013)

Dan U said:


> Good luck with whatever you choose to do spanglechick
> 
> Only comment I have is that supply teacher rates of pay can be crap. My mrs was doing supply in Croydon for years at primary level and it wasn't great money and no holidays paid etc. Worked out about the same as an NQT
> 
> ...


It's the other way round in my non-teaching schooljob. I will probably have to take a £5k paycut to get a permanant job. :erm:


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I think you have to look at transferable skills. And that sometimes takes a little lateral thinking.
> 
> I am not a teacher, so could only possibly patronise you by suggesting how you'd do that, but it would seem to me that a teacher could quite easily move over to training in other areas, either in which they already have knowledge (got any hobbies that might have a market?), or, if they are reasonably good at acquiring knowledge, skilling up in new areas.
> 
> There's a move towards using things like Restorative Practice in schools, so getting skilled up there could put you in a position where you could operate as a trainer in schools (and perhaps not just schools, but businesses and organisations, too) that are rolling it out, and so on...


yeah - other people have mentioned training.  as i said, although i have transferable skills, i'd still be going in at entry level.  

i don't know what restorative practice is, i''m afraid.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

i really do appreciate all these replies and ideas, btw.   i'm coming across as a right old negative whinge-bag, i know.

does no one else think the training to be a drama therapist is a good plan?   it's a proper professional thing. NHS and all that.


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## Thora (Sep 24, 2013)

One last suggestion - social work?  Probably wouldn't be an escape from pressure and paperwork but fairly high starting salaries and there are a couple of on the job training schemes now.  I reckon a social work qualification would be quite useful for going into other things too.


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## Hollis (Sep 24, 2013)

Training would be an obvious one.

What about something like 'Marketing and Communications/PR/Fundraising' in the charity sector?  Could see you doing those sort of things.. salaries aren't great at first..  but involves a mixture of skills with a people focus?


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## Thora (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i really do appreciate all these replies and ideas, btw.   i'm coming across as a right old negative whinge-bag, i know.
> 
> does no one else think the training to be a drama therapist is a good plan?   it's a proper professional thing. NHS and all that.


I think it might be quite hard to get a job doing it.  I did meet an art therapist at a training session once and she said she got quite a bit of work in schools in Bristol and the surrounding areas but all freelance.  One of my colleagues has also recently finished a play therapy MA and not really had any work from it.


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## purenarcotic (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i really do appreciate all these replies and ideas, btw.   i'm coming across as a right old negative whinge-bag, i know.
> 
> does no one else think the training to be a drama therapist is a good plan?   it's a proper professional thing. NHS and all that.



No you're not.  I had no idea quite how high the cost of living in London had become. 25k here would be a pretty comfy salary.

I think it is if it's something you think you would enjoy. I would definitely look into it,


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> most teachers are people persons... you only remember the cunts.
> 
> museum jobs are massively competitive. and at entry level pay shockingly poorly.



I think it was mainly the latter at my secondary school at least...

 at museums jobs.

I did start thinking about trying to get into the museums sector professionally (I do have some involvement on a voluntary basis - with an independent museum that doesn't have paid staff) a few years ago, then the government cu(n)ts started...


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Thora said:


> One last suggestion - social work?  Probably wouldn't be an escape from pressure and paperwork but fairly high starting salaries and there are a couple of on the job training schemes now.  I reckon a social work qualification would be quite useful for going into other things too.


it's about the only frying pan / fire scenario i can imagine. poor bloody social workers have a horrible time of things. but thanks - you've been tireless in suggesting stuff!


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## Hollis (Sep 24, 2013)

Thora said:


> I think it might be quite hard to get a job doing it.  I did meet an art therapist at a training session once and she said she got quite a bit of work in schools in Bristol and the surrounding areas but all freelance.  One of my colleagues has also recently finished a play therapy MA and not really had any work from it.


 
Therapy is a massively crowded 'market' at the moment!  You'd earn more working on purchase ledger..


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## twentythreedom (Sep 24, 2013)

No advice really spangles but as an over-40 (just) I've gone completely left field (for me) and followed my childhood ambition of being a professional yachtsman (yeah I know ) and have just achieved my first major qualification. Cost about a grand all in, but now I'm in a position to get paid 

Two years ago I was in the shit and miserable. A whole new world has opened up now  - big changes can happen, you obviously have mad skillz, so don't get disheartened, there's opportunities out there for you.

Good luck


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## purenarcotic (Sep 24, 2013)

It opens up a lot of doors into non social work but related professions though.   

Though I can't imagine a lot of charity support workers are getting over 28k, even taking the London weighting into account.


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## Thora (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> it's about the only frying pan / fire scenario i can imagine. poor bloody social workers have a horrible time of things. but thanks - you've been tireless in suggesting stuff!


I hate my job and want to do something different too


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## Cloo (Sep 24, 2013)

miss direct said:


> Publishing companies hire people to write their materials and represent them at conferences. It's a huge market in ESL, don't know about drama, but it may be worth looking into.


I was gonna suggest something related to editorial/content of educational publishing. It's not 'people'y work, and it doesn't pay fabulously, but it uses your brainpower satisfyingly and is not, IME, particularly stressful.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Thora said:


> I think it might be quite hard to get a job doing it.  I did meet an art therapist at a training session once and she said she got quite a bit of work in schools in Bristol and the surrounding areas but all freelance.  One of my colleagues has also recently finished a play therapy MA and not really had any work from it.


shit.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Cloo said:


> I was gonna suggest something related to editorial/content of educational publishing. It's not 'people'y work, and it doesn't pay fabulously, but it uses your brainpower satisfyingly and is not, IME, particularly stressful.


is it not incredibly hard to get into?


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## Thora (Sep 24, 2013)

Looking at the NHS jobs website there aren't any drama therapy or related jobs advertised in the UK at the moment.  If you definitely need to be employable at the end of it I'd do some thorough research.


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## purenarcotic (Sep 24, 2013)

I still think it's worth at least looking into: different areas have different levels of demand after all.

You could always drop an e-mail or call the nearest uni offering the course to you and ask them what they know about how easy it has been for recent graduates to find regular work.  I'd do that for any course you look into tbh.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Thora said:


> I hate my job and want to do something different too


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## Cloo (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> is it not incredibly hard to get into?


TBH, yeah, it's pretty hard. There are some businesses, like my previous employers, who are open to career changers and you may be able to impress them if you have relevant professional experience of what they publish. As some extra money if you were doing something else it could be worth trying a proofreading course (they're not expensive), as combined with the right experience, that could make you of interest as a freelancer for an educational publisher.

As for jobs that involve people... I'm sure they each involve quite a lot of training, but my understanding is that speech therapists and occupational therapists are always much in demand. I worked for the Journal of OT at one point, and occupational therapy always seemed like a really interesting and varied field.


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## existentialist (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> yeah - other people have mentioned training.  as i said, although i have transferable skills, i'd still be going in at entry level.
> 
> i don't know what restorative practice is, i''m afraid.


Google it. Here's a freebie for starters.

http://www.transformingconflict.org/content/just-schools

I'm a schools counsellor, and I am beginning to spot the early signs of burnout, so I am looking for a lifeboat for myself - teaching RP could be it.

And, with your drama background, that could serve you quite well for roleplay/demonstration scenarios - this kind of stuff is just begging for facilitated roleplay and suchlike to deliver it effectively.


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## existentialist (Sep 24, 2013)

Hollis said:


> Therapy is a massively crowded 'market' at the moment!  You'd earn more working on purchase ledger..


It isn't great. I'm employed by an LA - I have a degree qualification, and 5 years' specialist experience, and I'm on around £23k pro rata. Even in the NHS that'd be more like £28-35k, if there were jobs going in the area...


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Cloo said:


> TBH, yeah, it's pretty hard. There are some businesses, like my previous employers, who are open to career changers and you may be able to impress them if you have relevant professional experience of what they publish. As some extra money if you were doing something else it could be worth trying a proofreading course (they're not expensive), as combined with the right experience, that could make you of interest as a freelancer for an educational publisher.
> 
> As for jobs that involve people... I'm sure they each involve quite a lot of training, but my understanding is that speech therapists and occupational therapists are always much in demand. I worked for the Journal of OT at one point, and occupational therapy always seemed like a really interesting and varied field.


unfortunately bothe OT and SaLT require a new degree. cant have three years unwaged plus tuition.


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## cesare (Sep 24, 2013)

Moving into professional workplace training is my immediate thought (as others have said). There are also opportunities for actor/trainers - I know a few people that have moved from professional acting careers into roleplay actor/training. To have the widest opportunities though, you'd probably need to combine with formal training qualification probably through the CIPD, so that you weren't just restricted to actor/roleplay work but also training in the wider sense.


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## StoneRoad (Sep 24, 2013)

oh, spangles, your OP sounds like your work is really becoming a chore. My sympathy ! Sorry, but I can't offer much extra over the other suggestions. I know someone who grabbed early retirement, and had been using supply and EATOS as a supplement, but so far has had no work this term. (despite registering with all the local agencies).
It is a pity that the policies from the twunts in whitehall have killed off things like theatre outreach schemes - unless your area still does them !


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

cesare said:


> Moving into professional workplace training is my immediate thought (as others have said). There are also opportunities for actor/trainers - I know a few people that have moved from professional acting careers into roleplay actor/training. To have the widest opportunities though, you'd probably need to combine with formal training qualification probably through the CIPD, so that you weren't just restricted to actor/roleplay work but also training in the wider sense.


yes -  i think i need to chat to my mate who's big in corporate training.


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## cesare (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> yes -  i think i need to chat to my mate who's big in corporate training.


It's also possible to do on a freelance basis once you have the connections, which would mean it might be possible to also do supply teaching so that all your eggs weren't in one basket.


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## nagapie (Sep 24, 2013)

spangles, I'm sure you've considered this but have you thought about just making teaching easier for yourself? Being a teacher is really tough at the moment and getting tougher but working part time could give you some respite. Yes, it's a pay cut. 4 days is not unmanageable financially, three days more so but still a lot better paid than other areas that have been suggested.

What about giving up HOD? Yes, you'd need to move school but that sounds like no great loss. I am an acting HOD and would quite frankly love to just drop back to where I was. HOD requires too much.

What about SEN? When I thought I would leave teaching as I couldn't hack the workload and I didn't know where to go, I looked around to find out what I could do in school or in education that would be interesting but less intense. SEN was a good choice. I did a postgraduate in teaching dyslexia, quit my English teaching job and got an agency job, long term supply, in an SEN department. SEN teaching follows a lot of programmes, which cuts your planning down. There is almost no marking. You only teach in small groups so the intensity of the coalface is reduced. It is varied and interesting. It is very pupil and family centred. 

I like Orang Utan's school librarian move too. My school has just hired a librarian who was a higher tier TA so you don't have to be a qualified librarian to get these posts.


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## nagapie (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> yes -  i think i need to chat to my mate who's big in corporate training.



If you've got a mate in corporate training, that could really help.


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## sim667 (Sep 24, 2013)

Have you consider the FE sector spanglechick?

I know its looked down upon by both the university and the compulsory ed sectors, but I find its a nice balance of teaching vs riot control, and whilst still in the ofsted spectrum the targets are more manageable.

Also you work in an academy don't you? My mums been in the education sector over forty years and is absolutely disgusted by the way most academies treat staff.

Also what about elearning? It's a vastly growing market for education at the moment?


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## RubyToogood (Sep 24, 2013)

TEFL? Also, Piers Gibbon might have ideas?


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## trashpony (Sep 24, 2013)

I've worked in places where they have presentation skills trainers and also media trainers - who help their big wigs deal with going on camera/radio. It's one of those constantly refreshing jobs as they're always getting new people who need media training. 

Might be a bit leftfield, but I was thinking about client feedback which is a whole department thing in a lot of big companies. Basically, it's going and talking to clients about what they like and don't like about the service they're getting and then making sure their comments are dealt with and followed up. It's about interpersonal skills and tact, diplomacy and delivering senior people a shit sandwich and getting them to eat it. I think you'd be good at it


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

nagapie said:


> spangles, I'm sure you've considered this but have you thought about just making teaching easier for yourself? Being a teacher is really tough at the moment and getting tougher but working part time could give you some respite. Yes, it's a pay cut. 4 days is not unmanageable financially, three days more so but still a lot better paid than other areas that have been suggested.
> 
> What about giving up HOD? Yes, you'd need to move school but that sounds like no great loss. I am an acting HOD and would quite frankly love to just drop back to where I was. HOD requires too much.
> 
> ...


i just can't face ofsted and mocksted and all that bollocks.  i've had it.  i think back to what teaching used to be and... 

but maybe when i've drawn several massive blanks i'll be forced to stay in the profession. the idea makes me want to cry, tbh.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 24, 2013)

Flower arranging?


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

sim667 said:


> Have you consider the FE sector spanglechick?
> 
> I know its looked down upon by both the university and the compulsory ed sectors, but I find its a nice balance of teaching vs riot control, and whilst still in the ofsted spectrum the targets are more manageable.
> 
> ...


funnily enough, it's partly your experience of fe that makes me not want to touch it with a barge pole!

can't really teach drama through elearning...


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

trashpony said:


> I've worked in places where they have presentation skills trainers and also media trainers - who help their big wigs deal with going on camera/radio. It's one of those constantly refreshing jobs as they're always getting new people who need media training.
> 
> Might be a bit leftfield, but I was thinking about client feedback which is a whole department thing in a lot of big companies. Basically, it's going and talking to clients about what they like and don't like about the service they're getting and then making sure their comments are dealt with and followed up. It's about interpersonal skills and tact, diplomacy and delivering senior people a shit sandwich and getting them to eat it. I think you'd be good at it


those both do sound like things i could do, actually.


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## trashpony (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> those both do sound like things i could do, actually.


You could and they pay well. You'd have to sell your soul to the big corporate bastard but it's a fuck of a lot easier than what you're doing and the grief you get is nothing compared to being a teacher


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Flower arranging?


it's a sick industry.  the raw materials are so fucking expensive, but tescos etc have their own growers and run at a loss in necessary... and so people think flowers should cost about twenty quid, when even at cost you can't really do a briday bouquet for much less that £60... and then it's labour intensive in the extreme.


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## sim667 (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> funnily enough, it's partly your experience of fe that makes me not want to touch it with a barge pole!
> 
> can't really teach drama through elearning...



I do moan about it yes. But in all honesty I just hate most things and nit pick. Hence I'm so good at health and safety.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 24, 2013)




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## nagapie (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i just can't face ofsted and mocksted and all that bollocks.  i've had it.  i think back to what teaching used to be and...
> 
> but maybe when i've drawn several massive blanks i'll be forced to stay in the profession. the idea makes me want to cry, tbh.



I can't say that getting out of teaching all together doesn't make me want to scream at you 'run, run and never look back'. trashy has some interesting ideas. If you pull them off, let me know please. 

However on staying in teaching. I have never ever been ofsted as an SEN teacher. No one actually gives a fuck about support so no one ever shows up to see me. I've even stopped prepping


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 24, 2013)

Spangles, so many important considerations for you but I love the fact you are acknowledging the time to move on somehow. I left FE teaching about 5-6 years ago after basically falling out of love with it for very similar reasons as you. I worked out it would take me 5 years approximately to retrain as a counsellor/therapist and get the hours needed for accreditation  but can seriously say I haven't looked back. I now have 3 years clinical experience due to landing a brilliant placement as a trainee which I  stuck with until recently when I moved to South London.

As I couldn't afford to study full time I supplemented/funded it by temping and doing community development work. It's been a massive struggle at times but it has all been worth it. In fact I have never been this happy in terms of work/life/personal development balance. I am currently in the process of setting up my own practice and have a lovely p/t job as a community development worker. There are days when I am just waiting for the axe to drop and on those days I remember just how many awful experiences I have had workwise, as well as just how unhealthy it is to stay in a job that is killing your spirit, for whatever reasons. It's so uncommon to actually like our jobs! 

I didn't have a mortgage though and that kind of financial commitment plus the cost of training/studying is of course more and more a concern to anyone wanting to change professional direction. Take the time you have to explore all the options, be prepared to be a little/lot skint if you have to. Having a job that inspires/validates you and chimes with your sense of purpose is one of the most important things in life IMO.

Best of everything.


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## Plumdaff (Sep 24, 2013)

Third sector? Young people's charities? There are organisations who need people to plan, deliver and get money for educational programmes for young people and it would maybe retain some of what you used to love about teaching. Pay would be in the low end of doable. 

Also are there private possibilities for drama therapy? I hate to say it but in the NHS the financial situation is so dire that art and drama therapies are not going to be great career opportunities for at least a while. There's a lot of newly qualified health professionals who can't find work and let's not speak about the psychology graduates.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

trashpony said:


> You could and they pay well. You'd have to sell your soul to the big corporate bastard but it's a fuck of a lot easier than what you're doing and the grief you get is nothing compared to being a teacher


dunno how the fuck you'd go about getting into the client feedback thing, mind.  i shall have to research a bit.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 24, 2013)

RubyToogood said:


> TEFL? Also, Piers Gibbon might have ideas?


TEFL pay really really sucks.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 24, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Flower arranging?


Read thread before replying?


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## Orang Utan (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> it's a sick industry.  the raw materials are so fucking expensive, but tescos etc have their own growers and run at a loss in necessary... and so people think flowers should cost about twenty quid, when even at cost you can't really do a briday bouquet for much less that £60... and then it's labour intensive in the extreme.


Also a nono if you're concerned about the environment


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## Citizen66 (Sep 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Read thread before replying?



I sort of read the first page...


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## Manter (Sep 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> dunno how the fuck you'd go about getting into the client feedback thing, mind.  i shall have to research a bit.


People like mind gym and actors mean business have come into our place to run sessions on presentation skills etc using actors. 

Client feedback is often called voice of the customer- that may help you find stuff.

Incidentally, on the floristry-  are you trying to sell in the right places? Round my office there are beautiful flower stands that sell bouquets from about £50 up as far as you want to go- ok, it's the city, but I think many people understand that to get something lovely and special that's what you're looking at?


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

Manter said:


> People like mind gym and actors mean business have come into our place to run sessions on presentation skills etc using actors.
> 
> Client feedback is often called voice of the customer- that may help you find stuff.
> 
> Incidentally, on the floristry-  are you trying to sell in the right places? Round my office there are beautiful flower stands that sell bouquets from about £50 up as far as you want to go- ok, it's the city, but I think many people understand that to get something lovely and special that's what you're looking at?


I was doing weddings.  retail floristry is a whole other ballgame.  holding stock when it's that perishable is probably left to people more experienced than i.

thanks for the other info.


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## chilango (Sep 24, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> at it all
> 
> (although from my own school days  at the idea of liking people and being a teacher.  most of my teachers seemed to detest people - especially kids...)
> 
> ...



I looked at, even applied for, museum-y stuff. Problem is I was up against people with museum-y degrees and who had experience (paid and voluntary). Also the pay was significantly below what you're after. 20k was a good salary. Most posts seemed to pay lower.

Might be worth looking at indie schools? For all their faults They can tend to avoid the excesses of govt posturing and may have posts that are on a tangent from classroom teacherHoD type stuff. Also London has a few "international schools" that might too...


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## trashpony (Sep 24, 2013)

I know you said you were keen on staying in London but this looks like a low-stress teaching job: https://www.facebook.com/AteacherforMuckSchool


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## foamy (Sep 24, 2013)

cesare said:


> Moving into professional workplace training is my immediate thought (as others have said). There are also opportunities for actor/trainers - I know a few people that have moved from professional acting careers into roleplay actor/training. To have the widest opportunities though, you'd probably need to combine with formal training qualification probably through the CIPD, so that you weren't just restricted to actor/roleplay work but also training in the wider sense.


I know a few people who do medical training role play. Might be worth looking into for work to fund the mortgage while you train for something else if supply is a real no go?


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## toggle (Sep 24, 2013)

chilango said:


> I looked at, even applied for, museum-y stuff. Problem is I was up against people with museum-y degrees and who had experience (paid and voluntary). Also the pay was significantly below what you're after. 20k was a good salary. Most posts seemed to pay lower.
> 
> Might be worth looking at indie schools? For all their faults They can tend to avoid the excesses of govt posturing and may have posts that are on a tangent from classroom teacherHoD type stuff. Also London has a few "international schools" that might too...



you can be up against people with experience and PhDs. 

I do know people who have made the jump from teaching into heritage in the last 5 years, but it is getting harder. 

spanglechick if you have any thoughts in this field, might I suggest keeping an eye out though for what heritage lottery are funding in your area. there can be reasonably paid roles in their funded projects and you might find something right up your alley. downside is they tend to be 1-2 year projects only.


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## spanglechick (Sep 24, 2013)

trashpony said:


> I know you said you were keen on staying in London but this looks like a low-stress teaching job: https://www.facebook.com/AteacherforMuckSchool


haha.


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## Hollis (Sep 24, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> As I couldn't afford to study full time I supplemented/funded it by temping and doing community development work. It's been a massive struggle at times but it has all been worth it. In fact I have never been this happy in terms of work/life/personal development balance. I am currently in the process of setting up my own practice and have a lovely p/t job as a community development worker. There are days when I am just waiting for the axe to drop and on those days I remember just how many awful experiences I have had workwise, as well as just how unhealthy it is to stay in a job that is killing your spirit, for whatever reasons. It's so uncommon to actually like our jobs!


 
Could you not teach part-time while you retrain as something else?


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## buscador (Sep 24, 2013)

I had a similar problem some years ago when I left/had to leave teaching. Even in my then early thirties I was considered institutionalised and unemployable in any other field. It's incredibly difficult to persuade people that you have transferable skills, or indeed any skills at all.

I know it sounds really wanky but it's important to identify what it is that you really enjoy doing and try to focus on that first, then see what kind of jobs/professions fit rather than a sort of, "Oh, I could do this or I could do that." When buscadora left publishing (too experienced, too expensive to employ, not called Caroline or related to the MD etc etc) she actually went to a life coach which did help her to think about her life/career in a different way. It's very easy when you've been immersed in one job for a long time to become insular and to forget what it is you're actually good at and what makes you happy, especially when what you're currently doing makes you unhappy. 

I was lucky in that I found a crap, undemanding job in a bookshop that just about paid the mortgage. I understand that's not the right option for everyone, but the teaching world had left me so disillusioned with everything that I needed to start from the beginning again. It took a while to shake off the idea that I was somehow a failure.

I wish you all the luck with this. It's not easy, but whatever you end up doing I hope it is your choice.


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## kittyP (Sep 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Are you sure it is teaching in schools you want to give up? It might be just your school that's doing your head in. I've only worked in one school so far, so could be talking shit, but no one there seems to have to work as hard as you do or seem to be put under so much pressure, though there are the usual grumbles.



I think some schools are definitely worse than others but I think that lots of schools are going the way of spangles. 

The one I worked at for 11 years was nearly there. 
I was only an LSA and I was often working 10 hour days. 
Wonder why I had a serious break down. 

Had quite a few teacher friends that left to go to other schools. Some found other better places but some worse. 
And you don't know til your in usually.


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## kittyP (Sep 25, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i really do appreciate all these replies and ideas, btw.   i'm coming across as a right old negative whinge-bag, i know.
> 
> does no one else think the training to be a drama therapist is a good plan?   it's a proper professional thing. NHS and all that.



I think it would be a bloody great idea. 
And I guess if you can't find work doing it at the end you can carry on teaching until you can. 

I think it works differently from place to place but a few PRUs that I have been in and SEN schools, they often have just "class teachers" like you would in primary but those teachers running some other specialised classes. 
Even if they don't teach exams, you could still teach drama to some extent.
It would probably mean a pay cut at first but there are all sorts of management positions like in mainstream ed that could be worked towards. 
I know it is no guarantee that it would be better as my school was SEN but if you found one with an Arts Mark, they might let you run stuff your way.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 25, 2013)

You're clearly thinking about making a big change. So consider leaving London. 

You've made clear several times on this thread that the (presumably stupid London sized) mortgage is a big part of what's holding you in this position. So, walk away from that as well. It doesn't mean giving up on all the things you love about the place - all those nights out and friends you love will still be there, but you might just find that visiting it of a weekend is better for you than being a slave to it.


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## Looby (Sep 25, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> You're clearly thinking about making a big change. So consider leaving London.
> 
> You've made clear several times on this thread that the (presumably stupid London sized) mortgage is a big part of what's holding you in this position. So, walk away from that as well. It doesn't mean giving up on all the things you love about the place - all those nights out and friends you love will still be there, but you might just find that visiting it of a weekend is better for you than being a slave to it.



I'd bet it's cheaper than a stupid London sized rent! 

Thing is, spangles clearly isn't looking to leave London at the moment and she also has a husband to consider even if she was. What if moving out of London means a new job for him too?

Also, how far are you suggesting they move? Many of the counties surrounding London require big mortgages too.

You say London will still be there but not in the same way. Plus, rail fares there once or twice a month for two could end up costing as much as they've saved on a mortgage.

spanglechick I have nothing to add with career stuff but I know in part how you're feeling and it's horrible.

I hate my job, it's making me ill and I'm not getting anywhere near the pressure you are.
I'm also not working crazy hours. 

I genuinely don't know how you and some of the other teachers on here function.

I'm quitting next year (hopefully to go to uni) and I really hope you find something good and pays enough to get you out of there.x


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## innit (Sep 25, 2013)

I think our client feedback people sit within business development, so that might also be something to look for.

I'm not a very corporate person either, as you probably know - I'm a massive hippy on the inside, but I can cope just fine in a corporate environment and after some v bad experiences in the charity sector I really enjoy working with people who give a shit, even though what we do doesn't matter all that much. I just don't talk to my bosses about politics... (most of them anyway - my immediate boss is sound)


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## Boudicca (Sep 25, 2013)

I have done this the other way round. 20 odd years in the corporate world and then switched to teaching something which was previously a hobby.

Lots of transferable skills, particularly the fact that I was used to standing at the front and talking.  But my god, is it hard work and I now have huge admiration for anyone who teaches full time!

So please don't assume that your skills will not be valued, it's just a matter of pointing them out to potential employers.  

If you are a well organised person, maybe you could look for a temp admin job?  And perhaps run an adult education class once a week to boost your income?


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## Ms T (Sep 25, 2013)

I feel incredibly angry on your behalf, spangles, that you feel you have no choice but to leave teaching.  It's a bloody disgrace.

On a more practical level, have a chat to hendo about media training as he might be able to put you in touch with people who you can talk to in detail.  It is a very crowded sector though, full of former journos! I do know that the wife of a former colleague has a very lucrative job in that field, so it can be well paid.


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## spanglechick (Sep 25, 2013)

Ms T said:


> I feel incredibly angry on your behalf, spangles, that you feel you have no choice but to leave teaching.  It's a bloody disgrace.
> 
> On a more practical level, have a chat to hendo about media training as he might be able to put you in touch with people who you can talk to in detail.  It is a very crowded sector though, full of former journos! I do know that the wife of a former colleague has a very lucrative job in that field, so it can be well paid.


Cool.   That'd be great.    Will contact Hendo once mocksted is over.


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## Ms T (Sep 25, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Cool.   That'd be great.    Will contact Hendo once mocksted is over.



We need to do Strictly anyway...


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## Miss-Shelf (Sep 25, 2013)

sorry to hear teaching is driving you to, well , what its driving you too
I haven't got a practical suggestion that is a solution but just wanted to add that I got out of primary teaching via a series of steps and am now teaching in HE [hasn't been a bed of roses but I still like more than state sector teaching]
I never thought I would be able to get out of my previous work but I did - not in one go - I *had* to get out of a job double quick and as chance would have it a secondment came up in the local authority - as the recruiter said 'we can airlift you out of that school' - that was the first step out and into having time to think about what next - it was a pay cut at first but made up since
keep making some changes - you are worth more than the academy system will ever be able to give you
you have resilience, creativity, determination, persistence, flair and sparkle - there is a new path out there for you - take some steps onto it and keep taking them till they lead you somewhere


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## kabbes (Sep 25, 2013)

I used to have a plan to go into teaching at the age of 40, in order to give something back and do something more worthwhile.  From what I hear here and elsewhere, however, this is no longer a good plan.  Which seems a shame.

Anyway, here are some of my great thoughts, because I know that you've been on tenterhooks waiting for them:


Every job has shitty things that are part of it.  You are hating the shitty things about teaching right now, but you seem to be wanting to cling to the non-shitty things about it, reluctant to accept that another job's shitty things might be the non-shitty things about teaching.  So, for example, you have made references to not wanting something "corporate".  Well, if you don't want to be in teaching and you don't want to be in a private company (which will all be "corporate"), then that doesn't leave much.  NB it probably rules out the charity sector too, because they tend to be every bit as corporate as corporations these days.  It leaves:
being your own boss -- and you seem to have ruled that out
working in some small, niche sector -- which will almost inevitably have low pay; or
finding some other state sector job, which you will probably find has the same shitty things about it that your current job does.

In short, work out what kind of shitty things you WILL put up with and embrace that.  In particular, don't rule out the corporate just because it is corporate.  There is an unbelievable spectrum of company cultures out there, from the ultra-American-corporate-bullshit right the way through to the totally disorganised and chaotic.
I don't want to piss on your fireworks, and I know NOTHING about the field, but I have to say that dramatherapy sounds like a highly risky thing to go into.  Not only do you have to invest in learning it, but you are then dependent on the spending whims of the NHS.  Even if it is flavour of the month right now, they may do a 180 turn tomorrow.
Does your school have a careers advisor for the kids?  If so, can they help you?
There is this idea in career planning of "WIBNI" -- "Wouldn't It Be Nice If...".  Until you know what you would _like_ out of your job, you can't possibly hope to construct a plan to achieve it.  So what _do_ you like?  Wouldn't it be nice if... what?  What are the key concepts you like the idea of, and what are the key things you want to avoid at all cost?  Be vague at first, and then (and ONLY then -- only when you have a general feel) drill into these ideas to make them specific, achievable and timetabled.
From what I understand of you, some good things for you to think about surround corporate training.  A lot of corporate training these days bring in actors in order to role play situations (I know this has come up already in this thread but I wanted to reiterate it).  I had a chat with some of these actors -- they can make more from a day's work doing this than from a whole theatre run.  And they find it interesting, because they are helping people learn.  If you ARE going to stay in London, you may as well take advantage of the opportunities that London offers, and one of them is a plentitude of well-heeled companies with training budgets.
If you start out down the actor-for-role-play-training route, it should also provide you with the beginnings of a contact network to consider branching out into other areas of corporate training.  Corporate training is generally well paid, lacks bureaucracy and is dealing with adults who actually want to learn.  It's certainly something to consider.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 25, 2013)

<Never mind -- fixed it.>


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## Maurice Picarda (Sep 25, 2013)

If you don't want to be a teacher, then you could do worse in helping the public at large than formalising and scaling up the Kabbes Kareer Klinic.


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## kabbes (Sep 25, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> If you don't want to be a teacher, then you could do worse in helping the public at large than formalising and scaling up the Kabbes Kareer Klinic.


The acronym needs work, for a start.


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## Santino (Sep 25, 2013)

Needs more k's.


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## Santino (Sep 25, 2013)

Base it in Kingston.


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## spanglechick (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks all.  Kabbes, as one would expect, a sensible and methodical and useful post.  Appreciated.   Tbf, when I say "corporate" it's probably fair to say I mean "wearing a suit". 


Miss shelf (and others), thanks for the kind words (and an inspiring escape story).


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## Looby (Sep 25, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Thanks all.  Kabbes, as one would expect, a sensible and methodical and useful post.  Appreciated.   Tbf, when I say "corporate" it's probably fair to say I mean "wearing a suit".



I'm surprised that hadn't been made compulsory at school yet! ; )


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## mrsfran (Sep 25, 2013)

What about Audio Description?

http://www.creativeskillset.org/film/jobs/post_production_sound/article_4767_1.asp

Describing TV, film, theatre etc for the visually impaired. You'd be using your acting and theatre skills and your ability to explain clearly and concisely what's going on. You would need to be freelance and most audio describers do it in addition to other work because it's difficult to get it to pay full-time, but it could be a good option while you were studying for something. 

Useful link; http://audiodescription.co.uk/uploads/general/AD_WORK_OPPORTUNITIES_2013.pdf - although the initial paragraph is off-putting, there is work out there.

There are no AD jobs going at the moment where I work but I can let you know as soon as there are. And if you wanted to come in and see how it works I'd be happy to show you, and could put you in touch with some other audio describers.


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## innit (Sep 25, 2013)

I never wear a suit - I wear dresses every day and jackets on "special occasions". Business casual is the norm these days I think, although tbf client feedback would obviously be very, er, client facing.


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## Manter (Sep 25, 2013)

[quote="spanglechick, post: 12575854, Tbf, when I say "corporate" it's probably fair to say I mean "wearing a suit". 
[/quote]
Careful- I haven't worn a suit for years and I work in one of the most corporate and bullshit ridden industries out there


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## chilango (Sep 25, 2013)

sparklefish said:


> I'm surprised that hadn't been made compulsory at school yet! ; )



There's a new academy type thing opened up down the road from me. It's kids have to wear "business attire" I assume judging by the awkward 14 year old boys hanging around in ill-fitting, cheap 3 piece suits like rejects from a junior version of The Apprentice.

Chills me to the bone.


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## nagapie (Sep 25, 2013)

The thing is that teaching pays just enough to make it seem like a bad idea to change to less well paying jobs. But it's such a sacrifice on your well-being. Mortgage or not, you have to have a real look at your finances and be harsh. Think about reducing your standard of living drastically but if you can still cover your mortgage, food and bills as a couple then it's worth it. And if it gets too hard, teaching is always there to go back to. If your IT skills are up to it, I'd recommend temping and supply teaching to give some space once you've jumped ship.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 25, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> After some sustained provocation, I think my career in teaching is coming to a close.  I first trained in the pre-ofsted era, and when I compare that to how things are now... it's an entirely different profession. Workload, pressure, morale...  all turned to the kind of shit that saw me hoping someone would crash into my car on my way to work yesterday and just wipe me out for good.
> 
> And I'm not alone.
> 
> ...



<poor humour>
OFSTED inspector?
</poor humour>

More seriously, when you say "suitable", do you mean "follows logically from a career in teaching", "pays enough that I won't actively get into debt" or "isn't in any way related to teaching"?
As for the MA, have you looked at Career Development Loans?  The subject of your MA could be relevant to a fairly overlooked part of education - that of therapeutic interventions in "special needs" provision, and if you could sell it to the loaning institution as that...



> Would you employ a teacher?



Only if they didn't/hadn't taught P.E.  I have much too much animus against P.E. teachers to ever knowingly put food on the table of one.


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## kabbes (Sep 25, 2013)

I would employ a teacher like a shot.  Employ an _urbanite_ however?  That's another matter...


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 25, 2013)

Thora said:


> I *think* you have to be a qualified teacher and then it is a masters course - a teacher where I work has been talking about doing it.



Yes, it's a masters. It's one of those fields of psychology that interest me, but which I'd never practice in (children in uniforms spook me  ).


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## innit (Sep 25, 2013)

Do local authorities still have schools' advisers / teacher advisers? I think you might be too sorted to be one of those though - I used to do the training admin for a team of them and they were all well away with the fairies.


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## Kizmet (Sep 25, 2013)

Did you ever consider acting?


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## spanglechick (Sep 25, 2013)

mrsfran said:


> What about Audio Description?
> 
> http://www.creativeskillset.org/film/jobs/post_production_sound/article_4767_1.asp
> 
> ...


That sounds amazing...  Thanks.  

It does seem like there are a lot of jobs I could do as part of what I suspect might be called a "portfolio career".  I'm just so dreadfully bad at putting myself out there and chasing up leads etc.


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## spanglechick (Sep 25, 2013)

nagapie said:


> The thing is that teaching pays just enough to make it seem like a bad idea to change to less well paying jobs. But it's such a sacrifice on your well-being. Mortgage or not, you have to have a real look at your finances and be harsh. Think about reducing your standard of living drastically but if you can still cover your mortgage, food and bills as a couple then it's worth it. And if it gets too hard, teaching is always there to go back to. If your IT skills are up to it, I'd recommend temping and supply teaching to give some space once you've jumped ship.



Mmm.  I could do with learning to type, tbh.   I get dreadful backache because I'm constantly looking down at the keyboard.


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## mrsfran (Sep 25, 2013)

I'll send you a PM


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## spanglechick (Sep 25, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Did you ever consider acting?




You should've seen my "lady M", lovey...


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## pinkmonkey (Sep 25, 2013)

RubyToogood said:


> TEFL? Also, Piers Gibbon might have ideas?


We've a friend who retrained to TEFL (previous to that he ran an online store for a now defunct national offlicense chain).  He wanted to learn it so he could go travelling.  What has actually happened is he spends 6 months of year abroad doing nothing, then comes back to UK for 6 month, to teach adults at a private school in Highgate.  Think he gets paid about £28ph  - it's not full time, usually about 4 days a week.  
He really enjoys it.  He finds that his age (40) and life experience is an advantage in this field.


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## alsoknownas (Sep 25, 2013)

I can sympathise.  I do media work with young people on a freelance basis and get by.  But I don't have a mortgage to service, and if I did then the lean months would be a disaster.

There are lots of advantages to self-employment though, the chief one of which for me is that any hassle/unnecessary stress/ boredom is short-lived, and it's on to the next job.  Reconsider backing yourself, you've obviously got the skills to be successful in community-based workshop teaching.  If you plan it as a full-on self-publicising, network-maintaining assault (and consider the maintenance of these aspects as part of your working role), you can take an awful lot of the lottery out of it.

Best of luck.


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## pinkmonkey (Sep 25, 2013)

mrsfran said:


> What about Audio Description?
> 
> http://www.creativeskillset.org/film/jobs/post_production_sound/article_4767_1.asp
> 
> ...



One of my friends does this as a career, she ditched acting about 5 years ago.  She has a lovely voice though (long time voice over artist) and can do most accents well. You'll hear her on Sky, it's where she gets most of her work and she has managed to get it to pay well enough to afford a mortgage.


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## mrsfran (Sep 25, 2013)

pinkmonkey said:


> One of my friends does this as a career, she ditched acting about 5 years ago.  She has a lovely voice though (long time voice over artist) and can do most accents well. You'll hear her on Sky, it's where she gets most of her work and she has managed to get it to pay well enough to afford a mortgage.



I'll know her then  Does her name begin with Ta, Th, Sa, Pe or Ha?


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## pinkmonkey (Sep 25, 2013)

alsoknownas said:


> But I don't have a mortgage to service, and if I did then the lean months would be a disaster.
> There are lots of advantages to self-employment though.


I'm freelance (10 years now) but have no mortgage or debt, I'm not sure I'd manage if I did. I think if I was considering going freelance in Spangles position, I'd be looking at clearing some of my loans first.  I'd say you need savings to act as  a cushion in lean months. Can be very very busy or very very quiet, i's just how it goes.  Our risk is increased because we are both freelance - no regular wage to rely on.


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## pinkmonkey (Sep 25, 2013)

mrsfran said:


> I'll know her then  Does her name begin with Ta, Th, Sa, Pe or Ha?


Ha - lives near me in Tottenham.


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## kabbes (Sep 25, 2013)

Ah Hagrid.  Yes, I know her well.


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## Kizmet (Sep 25, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> You should've seen my "lady M", lovey...



Oh, I'm sure I have, dahling...


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## kabbes (Sep 25, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Oh, I'm sure I have, dahling...


On the naked thread, maybe?


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## Kizmet (Sep 25, 2013)

Anyway, whatever you choose to do I'm sure you'll be great at it.


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## Thimble Queen (Sep 25, 2013)

Santino said:


> Needs more k's.


 
We all need more k *sigh*


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## Winot (Sep 25, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> dunno how the fuck you'd go about getting into the client feedback thing, mind.  i shall have to research a bit.


 
By coincidence, we have just had a mailshot from people who do this.  Might be a start.

http://www.uptothelight.co.uk/


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## BlueSquareThing (Sep 25, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i think the problem is that my school is the way schools are going.  i'm tired of being a political and tabloid football.  i'm sick to tears of ofsted.  i'm an 'outstanding teacher' but what that means is purely that i spend half my time generating evidence for ofsted.



It's no consolation I know, but this is exactly how I feel.

Frankly almost all the stuff that makes me break down in tears almost every night stems directly from central government. I increasingly hate that side of the job (it's no longer a profession imo). It almost all disappears when I'm just in a classroom with some kids, but I don't think I can handle the other shit for much longer.

Thanks for this thread - I needed to read all of this just to show me that it's not just me. I'm intending to try some recruitment agencies - the teacher ones of those might be worth a try for decent supply gigs perhaps?


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## Red Cat (Sep 25, 2013)

I'd echo comments about the difficulties finding work in the NHS. It's very hard atm.

I've just started a funded training in the NHS and have only now been informed of a service redesign that introduces an agile working model into community CAMHS that will change the nature of my work so much I wonder when it fully goes ahead if I'll be able to meet the graduation criteria for the regulatory body. And there are so few jobs at the end....

I think you'd be great as a drama therapist btw - it's just all so uncertain out there.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 25, 2013)

sparklefish said:


> I'm surprised that hadn't been made compulsory at school yet! ; )


It is at mine


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## equationgirl (Sep 25, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Thanks all.  Kabbes, as one would expect, a sensible and methodical and useful post.  Appreciated.   Tbf, when I say "corporate" it's probably fair to say I mean "wearing a suit".
> 
> 
> Miss shelf (and others), thanks for the kind words (and an inspiring escape story).


I work in a large stuffy boring company and most certainly don't wear a suit - most of the guys don't even wear a tie. I'm smart casual most of the week, then jeans on a friday. What you wear on the frocks thread would not cause any fuss in most corporate environments anyway.


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## Looby (Sep 25, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> It is at mine



Madness, it's a school not a bloody bank.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 25, 2013)

sparklefish said:


> Madness, it's a school not a bloody bank.


And people who wear suits are such role models.
I have been doing my best to subvert this and have already have a few rows with the head.
All teachers have to wear hi vis tabards - what kind of image does that project?


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## equationgirl (Sep 25, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> And people who wear suits are such role models.
> I have been doing my best to subvert this and have already have a few rows with the head.
> *All teachers have to wear hi vis tabards - what kind of image does that project?*



All the time, even inside? What's the point of that?


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## Orang Utan (Sep 25, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> All the time, even inside? What's the point of that?


Yes, at all times. 
It's too 'reassure' the kids. If that is necessary, we should focus on why there is such a need instead.
There was a big scrap today in front of a load of visiting year 6s. Scared the shit out of them. The visit was organized to attract a larger intake. Words fail me...


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## equationgirl (Sep 25, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Yes, at all times.
> It's too 'reassure' the kids. If that is necessary, we should focus on why there is such a need instead.
> There was a big scrap today in front of a load of visiting year 6s. Scared the shit out of them. The visit was organized to attract a larger intake. Words fail me...


I would love to follow the logic that ended up with that as the solution, that is ridiculous!

Their parents don't wear high-vis so why would teachers wearing it be reassuring?


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## Orang Utan (Sep 25, 2013)

I don't know about you but the only time I've ever felt vaguely reassured by the presence of hi-vis gear is when there has been a calamity.
In non-calamitous situations, that yellow is the colour of highly ignorable petty officialdom, worn by parking attendants and event stewards.


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## Corax (Sep 25, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> After some sustained provocation, I think my career in teaching is coming to a close.  I first trained in the pre-ofsted era, and when I compare that to how things are now... it's an entirely different profession. Workload, pressure, morale...  all turned to the kind of shit that saw me hoping someone would crash into my car on my way to work yesterday and just wipe me out for good.
> 
> And I'm not alone.
> 
> ...



Must admit I've not read the thread, so this suggestion may already have been made.

What about the 'organisational development' aspect of HR?

Your knowledge of learning styles etc will be transferable.  Sure, there will be some differences with adults, but the core concepts will be the same.

My dad spent the majority of his career in the forces, and the latter part of that (after coming off operational stuff on the subs) was to do with the training of younguns.  When he moved to civvy street, he found it pretty tough to land a decent job at first (IIRC - I was quite young at the time), but got something leading management training for a corporation, and was very successful at it.  Still is actually - despite retirement being an option for him now, he's currently in charge of 'global development' for quite a funky tech firm where everyone else is half his age.

As well as private sector stuff like that, have you considered the NHS?  Teaching hospitals (often 'university hospital') always have a substantial learning and education department.  Again, a lot of your skills and knowledge will be transferable.  And in addition, your public sector experience is likely to be looked on positively, as you'd not be so shocked by the amount of bureaucracy that's imposed on us!


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## SLK (Sep 26, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i just can't face ofsted and mocksted and all that bollocks.  i've had it.  i think back to what teaching used to be and...
> 
> but maybe when i've drawn several massive blanks i'll be forced to stay in the profession. the idea makes me want to cry, tbh.



But they see you once (or twice) and you're outstanding?


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## SLK (Sep 26, 2013)

Corax said:


> Your knowledge of learning styles etc will be transferable.



What? Any evidence that "learning styles" exist beyond Gardner who admits they're applicable nowhere.
Spanglechick has admitted she wants to work in a private school. I'm surprised more people haven't recommended this.


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## spanglechick (Sep 26, 2013)

SLK said:


> But they see you once (or twice) and you're outstanding?


In the last six+ years at this school i've been observed three times a year - unannounced, formal observations in the style of ofsted , by SLT and by visiting inspectors.   

yes, i generally come up as outstanding - but there is a terrible sense that they want to catch you out and that if they observe you enough times the 'outstanding' mask will slip.  it's not done in a supportive way. more recently, they have introduced a programme for staff who are merely 'good', which is identical to being placed on 'competencies' (as a failing teacher is) with observations every week and compulsory weekly training sessions. with our workload as it is, i am in pure terror of being placed on this programme.


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## spanglechick (Sep 26, 2013)

SLK said:


> What? Any evidence that "learning styles" exist beyond Gardner who admits they're applicable nowhere.
> Spanglechick has admitted she wants to work in a private school. I'm surprised more people haven't recommended this.


i don't particularly. It is just an option which might be less government-controlled and more 'free', and therefore someone suggested it might be worth thinking about. however, as I said, ime over the last 18 years, I don't get shortlisted for jobs in public schools, which - since i do have about 40% success with applications to state schools - i put down to my unimpressive secondary and university choices.


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## treefrog (Sep 26, 2013)

*subscribes to thread*

After four years working under a harassing bully with some of the most troubled kids in the country, I moved to a high-decile, "21st century" school where I was told by the boss there would be ample opportunity for me to move my career on, freedom to teach how I wanted, and where staff were listened to and care for. Eight months later I'm driving home considering crashing my car as an alternative to going in the following day. I applied for my dream post, only to find out that they're not even going to interview me as they have a preferred candidate. I've been summoned for two please explain meetings this week alone, one to explain why I was on my computer marking during a lesson where I was supervising a small group of students, one to explain the learning value of a lesson where I had spent $40 of my own money and two hours of my own time so a low-engaged, low-ability class could dissect a heart and lungs in what they seemed to think was the best lesson ever. We're watched constantly and private conversations have been overheard and then reported back to the top brass, resulting in more please explains. There's no support for staff dealing with students who are extremely distressed and have decided that the teacher they trust is the one they want to speak to. In fact that's seen as "meddling". 

I've been teaching over seven years now and the kids think I'm pretty good at what I do but I can't take any more of being treated like an incompetent child and being spied on. I'm done trying to further my career, I'm done trying to fulfill whatever potential I have. I just want to teach kids and go home not feeling like this. I want to hit the escape button but it doesn't seem to exist. 

Sorry for long post, and threadjacking. I hope you find a decent escape button sweetheart, thinking of you. x


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## kabbes (Sep 26, 2013)

This is pure neoliberal overmeasurement as a replacement for trust and mutuality.  It's utterly shit, and a demonstrable failure.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 26, 2013)

suddenly  the shit i put up with in FE feels at least a little less crap.

 all i had to put up with was being sent to a place doing cover to find i had been told  i'd be teaching level 1-2  but was in fact teaching level 3.  not to worry. it turns out  i'm not too rusty  with hardware and after a few tricky moments trying to remember what an address bus was i was on top of the lesson.   unfortunately  practically non of the students were.  apparently the teacher for these subject  had  quit first day back from the holiday and none of the student knew what the fuck was going on.  i get told they all have assignment they have been told about  and have had all the  lessons needed.  apparently according to the support teacher all they have had  was  a random assortment of cover teachers doing whatever.

i spent equal amounts of time talking about the assignments  anf talking about   how to make formal complaints

plus  it was only one day  and the  travel cost me  £30  and took me about 4 and a half hours in total.

however at no point did i feel i was failing anyone.

mind you that may well be down to me feeling OK about my performance and  having  no worries about  external pressures  as i'm already fucked.  

yay


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## chilango (Sep 26, 2013)

Switching (or trying) to the world of private schools opens up a whole different can of worms which I'll post about later.

But a slightly more optimistic post first!

If you don't already check the "other workplaces" section of the TES jobs, it's worth keeping a very close eye on. Some very interesting jobs get advertised in there, particularly in London, from various people looking for teachers to take on education related posts. Things like the Houses of Parliament looking for someone to run their education programme, or the WWF wanting someone to manage their education centre. These jobs usually actively want teachers and their skills/knowledge/experience (hence advertising on the TES) and often pay competitively in comparison to teaching. You find plenty of SEN/PRU/out of school teaching roles there too. It's a long shot that the right role for you will come up in the right location (it hasn't for me yet) but even just to get an idea of the range of stuff out there it's well worth checking every few days.


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## chilango (Sep 26, 2013)

...and just in case people think I'm getting soft, here's a much more pessimistic post to follow .

I've heard mention of "you can always return to teaching later". People often say it to me too.

You can't.

Not anymore.

The "return to teaching" schemes have all been axed....and once you've been out of the classroom for a while you will be seen as being "out of touch". This appears to be becoming formalised in some guidelines somewhere too iirc. I don't know how long you've got before that starts to kick in. I've only been out of the classroom for just over a year and I already feel like it's too late. 

People will argue "but what about mothers returning to work?" . That's changed too. Every teacher/mother I've met as a SAHD has taken maternity and gone straight back into post. Precisely because it's so hard to get back in now.

So, if you decide to leave teaching, especially as a teacher of a non STEM subject, it's likely to be forever.


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## chilango (Sep 26, 2013)

Ok. Here's my take on going private.

*An important caveat before I start. I do not support the idea of private education. At all. But, we are workers, and earning a wage from an employer should not be seen as endorsement of that employer.
*
The first thing to think about is the sheer variety of private schools in the UK. They range from the established elite schools in the HMC group to fly-by-night "pop-up schools" (*cough* frogwoman ) in it to turn a quick profit.

Anyone considering working in a private school would do well to research the different types of schools: the HMC, the round square group, international schools etc. etc. and consider which would, if in a rare position of choice, be most suitable to work at.

Most people assume that working in private schools is, in some way, easier.

It isn't.

But then it is too.

The pros and cons are different. *And do vary enormously from school to school.* 

*Pros:
*

Classroom management/behaviour. Whilst you still have to be on your game, these are nothing like you'd face in an average state school. 
Smaller class sizes (usually).
Less govt interference.
Less likely to stagger wildly from one "latest initiative" to another.
Pleasant surroundings.
Lighter teaching timetable (generally). 
Good opportunities for CPD.
Generally less paperwork.
Longer holidays

*Cons:*


They're run by, and for, posh people. For most of us this is more alienating than you might think.
High pressure for results.
More parental interference.
Money/profit can often be the bottom line.
*Very* high extra-curricular demands (can you coach a sport? you soon will.)
Unions often absent. Little protection from the whims of SLT/Parents/Owners.
Reports are products. Reporting, therefore, can be pretty intense.
Can be very hard to get a job at.
Working on Saturdays.

Other things vary too much to make a call on. You could have fantastic resources, or none. Some staff rooms have well stocked bars, plasma TVs and high tea served daily. Others are cupboards that you are strongly discouraged from using. Pastoral care is intense bringing a whole raft of unfamiliar issues peculiar to the wealthy alongside the usual. Pay is often a fraction over the national average. But not always. Some schools pay well, well under.

Getting a job at one is, as spanglechick points out, not a matter of how good a teacher you are. the private school system is a closed shop of sorts. (that's its whole _raison d'etre_) by and large you have to be "one of them" already. many private schools are full of examples teachers who can't teach but went to the right school/uni or play the right sport. If you're an ex-England rower/rugby international you're well in, regardless of teaching skills. Some schools make a big deal of publishing their staff list, if they do, and especially if said staff list is chock full of _Cantabs_ and _Oxons_ front and centre than the likes of you and me can forget about working there. Some even slip subtle references to "must be sympathetic to the ethos of boarding life" or similar as a coded criteria in their person spec.

That said, they're not all like that. Some value results most and will pick the "best" teachers regardless of background. Others value things like extra-curricular commitment and a diversity of experiences as a way of enriching their faculty. This is the exception rather than the norm though and largley applies to schools in International Systems or ones whose USP is some kind of "progressive ethos". 

If you're careful, and lucky, you can find a job where you can teach and get your life back. If you're not they will suck you dry and spit you out.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 26, 2013)

It seems anathema to me to work in private education. The rich don't need our help. It's those that can't pay that do.
If you work in private education, you will have to reconcile yourself with training the elite to fuck over everyone else. Why would you want to do this?


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## chilango (Sep 26, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> It seems anathema to me to work in private education. The rich don't need our help. It's those that can't pay that do.
> If you work in private education, you will have to reconcile yourself with training the elite to fuck over everyone else. Why would you want to do this?



You think state education as it stands doesn't play an equal role in reproducing capitalism?

The vast majority of workers have to work for bosses, and in jobs, whose purpose is to make the rich richer. Are you gonna demand that they "reconcile" this with themselves?

C'mon OU think this through before leaping to judge.


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## spanglechick (Sep 26, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> It seems anathema to me to work in private education. The rich don't need our help. It's those that can't pay that do.
> If you work in private education, you will have to reconcile yourself with training the elite to fuck over everyone else. Why would you want to do this?


Because I need to pay the mortgage?

I don't see that it's any worse than working for a business to make the owners rich.


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## kabbes (Sep 26, 2013)

My job right now is to try to make the (arguably) richest two individuals in two separate countries marginally richer than they already are.  There are barely any other shareholders, even.  That's WAY worse than teaching in a private school.


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## chilango (Sep 26, 2013)

I worked in McDonalds once. What a bastard, eh?


----------



## girasol (Sep 26, 2013)

Fucking hell, the tales of teaching and performance ratings remind me too much of my workplace.  How did things get this bad and how can it be fixed?

Here we have it such that our performance is ranked, so every year some poor sod is stigmatized as not being a high performer.  Because it's ranked, even if you work really hard, you can still end up at the 'bottom of the pile'.  And you have to go through some process and be evaluated again.  Everyone who's been through does well the next year, unsurprisingly, which just goes to show what a farce the whole thing is.  Usually if you do badly again then 'proceeding's are taken against you.  And obviously the manager going through the process with the victim gets all the credit.  We don't even have a choice on what we work on making it even more unfair and infuriating.

To think this awful private company mindset is being applied to schools is really disheartening, especially considering I was considering leaving my job to go into teaching.  But it sounds just as awful as it is here.  I used to like my job, now I hate it.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 26, 2013)

girasol said:


> Fucking hell, the tales of teaching and performance ratings remind me too much of my workplace.  How did things get this bad and how can it be fixed?
> 
> Here we have it such that our performance is ranked, so every year some poor sod is stigmatized as not being a high performer.  Because it's ranked, even if you work really hard, you can still end up at the 'bottom of the pile'.  And you have to go through some process and be evaluated again.  Everyone who's been through does well the next year, unsurprisingly, which just goes to show what a farce the whole thing is.  Usually if you do badly again then 'proceeding's are taken against you.  And obviously the manager going through the process with the victim gets all the credit.  We don't even have a choice on what we work on making it even more unfair and infuriating.
> 
> To think this awful private company mindset is being applied to schools is really disheartening, especially considering I was considering leaving my job to go into teaching.  But it sounds just as awful as it is here.  I used to like my job, now I hate it.


Sounds like you need to introduce your management to the concept of reversion to the mean.  

Suppose you have a number of individuals who are all exactly the same, but variable (in the same way) from year to year.  

In any given year, through pure chance, some individuals will outperform others, and one will end up last whilst another will end up best.

Next year, this random ordering will happen again.  But the chance of a low performer randomly ending up again as a low performer the following year is very, very small.  If there are ten individuals, for example, then the chance of ending up bottom is 1/10.  That means that the bottom performer this year has a 90% chance of not being bottom next year.

So if you focus the the person that came bottom and then congratulate yourself when they don't come bottom next year, all you're really doing is taking credit for the 9/10 chance that came up.

For these measurements to mean anything, they have to show a consistent pattern, not just a one-off effect.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 26, 2013)

Sorry, I don't want to be too judgmental on this thread of all places, since SC is considering all options.
I do think it is different in education than in other sectors though, as presumably people go into education because they want to help others. You don't go into retail or accountancy to do that.


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## kabbes (Sep 26, 2013)

After 20 years of helping others, are you then committed to spending another 20 years doing so?


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## Orang Utan (Sep 26, 2013)

kabbes said:


> After 20 years of helping others, are you then committed to spending another 20 years doing so?


It is difficult, granted. I can see why people give in.
I've only just started, so it's easy for me to say all that.


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## kabbes (Sep 26, 2013)

I'd say you have a duty to ensure your own welfare first and foremost.  You're no good to the oppressed if you are getting a breakdown just by entering the school.


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## nagapie (Sep 26, 2013)

chilango said:


> I've heard mention of "you can always return to teaching later". People often say it to me too.
> 
> You can't.
> 
> Not anymore.



I think it's easier to get back in in London. Especially if you have experience of tough schools so don't mind applying for those. I think HOD experience is also valid for quite a few years.


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## spanglechick (Sep 26, 2013)

When I got back in this time round, I went from supply, to long term supply, to a permanent HOD post.  That was a few years back though.   


So, somewhat ironically, considering how shit the head thinks I am at my job, I got another outstanding observation today.   What a waste.   I love actual classroom teaching and I'm good at it, but those five hours a day are apparently the least important part of my job both in hours, percieved importance and pressure from above.   *shakes head, muttering*


It's just not enough anymore.


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## bmd (Sep 26, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> When I got back in this time round, I went from supply, to long term supply, to a permanent HOD post.  That was a few years back though.
> 
> 
> So, somewhat ironically, considering how shit the head thinks I am at my job, I got another outstanding observation today.   What a waste.   I love actual classroom teaching and I'm good at it, but those five hours a day are apparently the least important part of my job both in hours, percieved importance and pressure from above.   *shakes head, muttering*
> ...



God I really feel for you. Don't let this drain you of your self-belief. You are great at what you do. Granted I am going on what you post here but it's easy to tell someone who is genuine and I believe that I can see that in you.


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## trashpony (Sep 26, 2013)

I totally understand your reasons for wanting to get out spangles but I find it so fucking depressing that our best teachers are being so undermined and made to work in such intolerable working conditions that they are suffering mental health issues. What is going to happen to our children? 

I never thought I'd hate anyone as much as I hated Thatcher but Gove is coming a very close second. He is utterly destroying our education system and I suspect we'll never get it back


----------



## spanglechick (Sep 26, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Sorry, I don't want to be too judgmental on this thread of all places, since SC is considering all options.
> I do think it is different in education than in other sectors though, as presumably people go into education because they want to help others. You don't go into retail or accountancy to do that.


I don't know that it's that altruistic.  At least for me, I teach because I love my subject and it suits my personality and I like being "on" all day (it's quite a lot like a five hour stand up routine)... And helping people is part of it but I do it because *I enjoy* the process of helping people, not because helping people is a "good thing to do".


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## spanglechick (Sep 26, 2013)

trashpony said:


> I totally understand your reasons for wanting to get out spangles but I find it so fucking depressing that our best teachers are being so undermined and made to work in such intolerable working conditions that they are suffering mental health issues. What is going to happen to our children?
> 
> I never thought I'd hate anyone as much as I hated Thatcher but Gove is coming a very close second. He is utterly destroying our education system and I suspect we'll never get it back


He's the most dangerous Tory cunt out there because he's relentless, and won't listen to the experts, and good at spin... But on top of that he's completely sincere.   He's no cynical careerist like Cameron or Gideon or Boris...  He believes in this stuff right through to his DNA.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 26, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> I don't know that it's that altruistic.  At least for me, I teach because I love my subject and it suits my personality and I like being "on" all day (it's quite a lot like a five hour stand up routine)... And helping people is part of it but I do it because *I enjoy* the process of helping people, not because helping people is a "good thing to do".


I never said it was altruistic. I worked for a company that helped progressively dumb down British culture over the ten years that I worked for them, so there must be some attempt to redress the balance going on subconsciously.
It is much more of a thrill to help others and is great for your self-esteem (until other agencies chip away at of course).
I can see how these agencies may make you want to fuck it off and go private, I really do, but it must be a much less fulfilling experience. ultimately.
It is of course, a personal thing, but, for me, I just do not want to help educate the rich. I do think it is different than just helping them fill their coffers, it is moulding a generation into little Camerons, Cleggs and Milibands.
But, I can see how Ofsted and Gove and a mortgage may make you care less about that. I got a massive kick in the teeth today from another agency after feedback from one stupid, malicious person who got the wrong end of the stick in one lesson I was involved in, and I felt so angry and demoralised by this, that I can almost understand what it must be like to get negative feedback from Ofsted, judging you professionally after one lesson that doesn't quite go to plan. Anyway, that's one for the pissed off thread.


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## Kizmet (Sep 26, 2013)

you left advertising?


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## Orang Utan (Sep 26, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> you left advertising?


TV broadcasting. I helped the likes of Big Brother get to air


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## frogwoman (Sep 26, 2013)

if your going to go private then unless the establishment i is quite well respected, then i suggest that you go through an agency (one of the few times when going through an agency is better than being directly employed), and watch out for:
non-existent bullying policies
"self-employment" contracts for tax purposes
racism/religious prejudice/homophobia and nothing getting done about it
SEN/mental health issues from students being treated as disciplinary issues, SEN/disruptive pupils not getting diagnosed properly
constant anti-working class bitching
dodgy financial dealings meaning that you don't get paid on time
Shoddy practices such as an unfamiliarity with what to do with sensitive documents (your crb might end up in a strange/non secure place for example) and an unfamiliarity with safeguarding procedures
Lack of unionisation (if you're in a union now make sure you stay in it)
Managers thinking and acting like they're god, to the extent that they do things that in other environments would be regarded as gross misconduct, and its fine 
Weird curriculums (for example with a disproportionate emphasis on religious shit)
What chilango said about employees being employed on where they went to school or what their quals are rather than their ability to do a job

Also private schools usually don't have the same level of intensity with an OFSTED inspection as a state school does, they seem to be treated a lot more leniently. On one hand this is good for you because it means that you don't have the same level of stress that it seems that you currently do. On the other hand it means that the above issues don't get picked up


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## frogwoman (Sep 26, 2013)

we're all workers btw doing a job, working in a private school doesn't make you a cunt any more than working in starbucks makes you a cunt


----------



## chilango (Sep 26, 2013)

I do think Orang Utan 's posts, and the assumptions underlying them, raise a couple of serious points that are at the heart of what's being done to teachers at the moment. 

I'll come back to them later when the little one tugging at my legs has gone to bed!


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 26, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> we're all workers btw doing a job, working in a private school doesn't make you a cunt any more than working in starbucks makes you a cunt


I never said it did.


----------



## chilango (Sep 26, 2013)

Okay, as promised: 

(Orang Utan please don't feel offended, this isn't an attack on you - I'm not accusing you of this, rather your posts merely acted as a prompt for these thoughts!)

First, the assumption that teachers teach primarily out of altruism, and that teaching is "a vocation" whilst clearly having some truth leads to two significant problems imho.

1/ That because teachers are doing it as a vocation and not out of material self-interest pay and conditions are easier to undermine. You can see the same effect with Nursing.

2/ It undermines teachers' professionalism in the "business world". We are seen as sentimental and not cut out for the hard-headed outside world. This not only limits our opportunities for career changing post-teaching, bus is now beginning to wreak damage within education as successive governments believe that teachers (and schools) need a strong injection of "industry experience" to keep us relevant, hence parachuting in "city high flyers" above trained and experienced teachers and the whole toxic disgrace of the Academy system.

Secondly, the assumption, that teachers can be judged according to some different scale of morals than other workers (not that they should be accountable, nor that their duty of care requires extra scrutiny, which are both reasonable). This has led to "open season" on the teaching profession in the media, facilitating the current wave of attacks and also leading to the maintenance of popular stereotypes of unprofessional teachers.


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## Thora (Sep 26, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> I don't know that it's that altruistic.  At least for me, I teach because I love my subject and it suits my personality and I like being "on" all day (it's quite a lot like a five hour stand up routine)... And helping people is part of it but I do it because *I enjoy* the process of helping people, not because helping people is a "good thing to do".


I thought the same.  I have a job that "helps people" but I didn't start doing it because I really wanted to do good in the world.  I did it because I (used to) enjoy it and the pay/conditions were alright.


----------



## BlueSquareThing (Sep 26, 2013)

chilango said:


> Okay, as promised:
> First, the assumption that teachers teach primarily out of altruism, and that teaching is "a vocation" whilst clearly having some truth leads to two significant problems imho.
> 
> 1/ That because teachers are doing it as a vocation and not out of material self-interest pay and conditions are easier to undermine. You can see the same effect with Nursing.
> ...


This whole approach of bringing in "industry practices" is certainly causing me to care less about the kids and be less interested in continuing as a teacher. I'm not sure if that was what it was intended to do, but it's certainly happening - I'll end up being replaced by a clipboard wielding tick box merchant who can teach an academy approved lesson using sponsored materials but can't actually engage with children. But I'm sure they'll all do brilliantly anyway...


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Sep 26, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i really do appreciate all these replies and ideas, btw.   i'm coming across as a right old negative whinge-bag, i know.
> 
> does no one else think the training to be a drama therapist is a good plan?   it's a proper professional thing. NHS and all that.


Working through the thread now and come to this - tbh in our local CAMHS there are few (if any) protected drama therapist roles, although some have been employed as generic "CAMHS practitioners" at band 6. However, the two previous local CAMHS I worked in there were no drama therapists - I think it largely depends on the service and area. There don't appear to be any drama therapists in the specialist CAMHSs I have worked in or alongside.

Currently there are some _really_ savage cuts going on in CAMHS. God knows what the situation would be like in a few years - might be better or might be worse. There's also supposedly a move towards "evidence based therapies" and I'm not sure how much of an evidence base drama therapy has, but who knows what will happen with that in the future?

Despite that (I hope it doesn't come across as too negative) the drama therapists I have known has really loved their job, and get a lot of satisfaction out of it.  And on the plus side for jobs (not so much for salaries) often CAMHS practitioner roles are attractive to services because they're cheaper than, say, employing a psychologist or (I think) a psychotherapist.


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## Looby (Sep 26, 2013)

girasol said:


> Fucking hell, the tales of teaching and performance ratings remind me too much of my workplace.  How did things get this bad and how can it be fixed?
> 
> Here we have it such that our performance is ranked, so every year some poor sod is stigmatized as not being a high performer.  Because it's ranked, even if you work really hard, you can still end up at the 'bottom of the pile'.  And you have to go through some process and be evaluated again.  Everyone who's been through does well the next year, unsurprisingly, which just goes to show what a farce the whole thing is.  Usually if you do badly again then 'proceeding's are taken against you.  And obviously the manager going through the process with the victim gets all the credit.  We don't even have a choice on what we work on making it even more unfair and infuriating.
> 
> To think this awful private company mindset is being applied to schools is really disheartening, especially considering I was considering leaving my job to go into teaching.  But it sounds just as awful as it is here.  I used to like my job, now I hate it.



This sums up the civil service too.

We have a new performance management system. Previously less than 2% of our department were considered to 'need improvement', the vast majority got 'good' and a small minority of mainly higher grades got 'top'. I've been there 9 years and got top once. 
I had to bloody fight for it and deserved it. I'd helped develop department wide processes ffs. 

Now, we have guided distribution which is quotas basically so a minimum of 10% of staff will get a marking of 'must improve'.

That's a massive increase of staff to apparently be under performing. One of my colleagues had his appraisal the other day and was told he was a must improve. When they asked what they could do to increase their marking, his manager said nothing.

It's a fucking joke.


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## girasol (Sep 27, 2013)

sparklefish said:


> This sums up the civil service too.
> 
> We have a new performance management system. Previously less than 2% of our department were considered to 'need improvement', the vast majority got 'good' and a small minority of mainly higher grades got 'top'. I've been there 9 years and got top once.
> I had to bloody fight for it and deserved it. I'd helped develop department wide processes ffs.
> ...



http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/arossett/pie/Interventions/forcedranking_1.htm

A most demoralizing practice for everyone involved...  Even the people who are the top don't like it, neither do most managers (the ones who are human).  It's divisive and corrosive.


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## abstract1 (Sep 27, 2013)

Have you considered something like a Head of Virtual School post? I believe there's the capacity to be creative, and the head of the virtual school down here in Brighton is fab and does a very good job for the looked after children and young people in our LA.  

And with rosla, I'd imagine there may be increasing opportunities in this area?


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 27, 2013)

girasol said:


> http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/arossett/pie/Interventions/forcedranking_1.htm
> 
> A most demoralizing practice for everyone involved...  Even the people who are the top don't like it, neither do most managers (the ones who are human).  It's divisive and corrosive.


 
That paper is quite revealing about the mindset of people who advocate these things. She's surveyed the grand total of 6 people for it, of which 5 have said it's a bad idea and even the one in favour describes it as 'corrosive,' then written a conclusion saying it's a great idea but needs a bit more communication. It's just total shite - stick some references in to make it look like you've done some actual research and then conclude what you want to anyway.


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## cesare (Sep 27, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That paper is quite revealing about the mindset of people who advocate these things. She's surveyed the grand total of 6 people for it, of which 5 have said it's a bad idea and even the one in favour describes it as 'corrosive,' then written a conclusion saying it's a great idea but needs a bit more communication. It's just total shite - stick some references in to make it look like you've done some actual research and then conclude what you want to anyway.


Approx 10 years out of date too.


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## treefrog (Sep 27, 2013)

Scientific literacy FTW. If only I wasn't in a country where it wasn't compulsory.


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## girasol (Sep 27, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That paper is quite revealing about the mindset of people who advocate these things. She's surveyed the grand total of 6 people for it, of which 5 have said it's a bad idea and even the one in favour describes it as 'corrosive,' then written a conclusion saying it's a great idea but needs a bit more communication. It's just total shite - stick some references in to make it look like you've done some actual research and then conclude what you want to anyway.





cesare said:


> Approx 10 years out of date too.



To be fair it was the first one that came up on performance ranking search, but that's very much the mentality behind it nowadays.  When I worked for a smaller company they didn't do any of that, but started to implement it once they knew a takeover was on the cards.  Now working for a bigger company it really does feel like every year they make life more difficult for its employees, people leave and don't get replaced, for example.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2013)

kabbes said:


> This is pure neoliberal overmeasurement as a replacement for trust and mutuality.  It's utterly shit, and a demonstrable failure.



Managerialism (i.e. the idea that everything and anything in life is a process can and should be quantified and managed in order to achieve a desired result) is saturated with such measurement, and can be claimed to *kill* not only trust and mutuality, but creativity, employee loyalty (which, of course, all managerialists *demand* as a right!) and ambition.
Achievement has been sacrificed on the altar of attainment of meaningless "metrics".  A company hitting it's "best practice" target for customer relations is fine as far as it goes, but that doesn't actually translate, in many cases, to improved process, just to a ticked box (and perhaps a managerial bonus).


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## pinkmonkey (Sep 27, 2013)

^^^and this is one reason why I've been freelance for past ten years. (and permanently skint, lol)


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## existentialist (Sep 28, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Working through the thread now and come to this - tbh in our local CAMHS there are few (if any) protected drama therapist roles, although some have been employed as generic "CAMHS practitioners" at band 6. However, the two previous local CAMHS I worked in there were no drama therapists - I think it largely depends on the service and area. There don't appear to be any drama therapists in the specialist CAMHSs I have worked in or alongside.
> 
> Currently there are some _really_ savage cuts going on in CAMHS. God knows what the situation would be like in a few years - might be better or might be worse. There's also supposedly a move towards "evidence based therapies" and I'm not sure how much of an evidence base drama therapy has, but who knows what will happen with that in the future?
> 
> Despite that (I hope it doesn't come across as too negative) the drama therapists I have known has really loved their job, and get a lot of satisfaction out of it.  And on the plus side for jobs (not so much for salaries) often CAMHS practitioner roles are attractive to services because they're cheaper than, say, employing a psychologist or (I think) a psychotherapist.


Counsellors are NHS Band 5-7, psychotherapists 7+, according to Mrs E. Dramatherapists would be AHPs and probably come in around Band 5.


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## Agent Sparrow (Sep 28, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Counsellors are NHS Band 5-7, psychotherapists 7+, according to Mrs E. Dramatherapists would be AHPs and probably come in around Band 5.


Yeah, I thought psychotherapists started at band 7 but wasn't entirely certain. And our drama therapist/s might well be band 5 CAMHS practitioners. Either way, some services are going for the generically advertised band 5s and 6s because they're cheaper than a specified band 7 role.


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## Red Cat (Sep 28, 2013)

There are very, very few jobs in CAMHS for child psychotherapists. After a training on band 6 they're lucky if they get work on graduation.


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## Agent Sparrow (Sep 28, 2013)

Red Cat said:


> There are very, very few jobs in CAMHS for child psychotherapists. After a training on band 6 they're lucky if they get work on graduation.


And in services where there are a lot of psychotherapy roles, it's usually very specific to the culture and history of that service. 

From having worked in a few CAMHS services, it's quite amazing to see how much the professional mix has changed with each one. Often it seems more related to service history or what profession the service lead belongs to than anything else.


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## mentalchik (Sep 28, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Managerialism (i.e. the idea that everything and anything in life is a process can and should be quantified and managed in order to achieve a desired result) is saturated with such measurement, and can be claimed to *kill* not only trust and mutuality, but creativity, employee loyalty (which, of course, all managerialists *demand* as a right!) and ambition.
> Achievement has been sacrificed on the altar of attainment of meaningless "metrics".  A company hitting it's "best practice" target for customer relations is fine as far as it goes, but that doesn't actually translate, in many cases, to improved process, just to a ticked box (and perhaps a managerial bonus).




This ^ infects where i work like a disease and is why i am shortly taking a risk and getting out.......it's soul destroying and is producing nothing but contempt and unhappiness in the workforce


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## Looby (Sep 28, 2013)

mentalchik said:


> This ^ infects where i work like a disease and is why i am shortly taking a risk and getting out.......it's soul destroying and is producing nothing but contempt and unhappiness in the workforce



Same here, it's toxic. 
There's a big thing being made of staff engagement but they're fighting a losing battle when still doing this stuff.

The waste of resource is crazy too. People having to spend 2 days preparing for a mid-year review when they could be getting on with their actual work. 

Someone was crying as I left work yesterday, the rumour is it's because of performance management. 

Our union has voted for complete non-cooperation with the process as its so damaging and there are massive equality issues too. Unfortunately this action starts the Monday after my fucking meeting. : D 

Much as I'd hate to be self-employed for many reasons, pinkmonkey is right that it's the only sure way to avoid this stuff.


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## girasol (Sep 28, 2013)

Takes some courage to be self-employed - hats off to all of you who are!


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## Balbi (Sep 28, 2013)

I've been in for five years now. I have another two, maximum, before I will have to find something else to do. Similar experience to treefrog and spanglechick, with the relentless grind of it just killing my love and my well being. It's paid, sure - but well paid and dissolving, or poor but together - I know that's an upcoming choice.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 28, 2013)

I'm still considering going in to teaching but I'm not really encouraged by anything I've read on this thread.
Maybe I'm better off being a librarian. No marking, no OFSTED pressure.


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## Balbi (Sep 28, 2013)

I look at the NQT's at my school, where we're averaging 60 hour weeks in the beginning of the year, and wonder how the fuck I managed it. The answer was, five years ago, it was a 40 hour week. I have no clue where the extra hours came from.


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## treefrog (Sep 28, 2013)

Balbi said:


> I've been in for five years now. I have another two, maximum, before I will have to find something else to do. Similar experience to treefrog and spanglechick, with the relentless grind of it just killing my love and my well being. It's paid, sure - but well paid and dissolving, or poor but together - I know that's an upcoming choice.


It's a horrible feeling, innit. Knowing that's coming and you need to make that choice for your own sanity but also what sacrifices you'll have to make to it. I'm in that right now.


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## Balbi (Sep 28, 2013)

A friend of mine went from management and events stuff, and a hefty wedge, to running her own after school drama club business. She's found it unbelievably tough, but is making it work. But she's poor but happy.

I reckon we three should follow the advice of these chaps, although probably basically should do the Dan Aykroyd and Bill Murray version, rather than their earnest recreation.


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## spanglechick (Sep 28, 2013)

Balbi said:


> A friend of mine went from management and events stuff, and a hefty wedge, to running her own after school drama club business. She's found it unbelievably tough, but is making it work. But she's poor but happy.
> 
> I reckon we three should follow the advice of these chaps, although probably basically should do the Dan Aykroyd and Bill Murray version, rather than their earnest recreation.



i've posited before setting up an 'informal learning', friendly, non-exam-factory, free school before.  somehow i don't think it's what gove has in mind.


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## Balbi (Sep 28, 2013)

I'm considering abandoning all principle and getting elected as a Labour Party councillor and working my way up. I can talk out loud and am easy on the eye/tick the lgbt box. Nailed on Chancellor in 2035.


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## spanglechick (Sep 28, 2013)

Balbi said:


> I'm considering abandoning all principle and getting elected as a Labour Party councillor and working my way up. I can talk out loud and am easy on the eye/tick the lgbt box. Nailed on Chancellor in 2035.


minister for education, no?


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## Balbi (Sep 28, 2013)

Alas, I am an expert


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## nagapie (Sep 29, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I'm still considering going in to teaching but I'm not really encouraged by anything I've read on this thread.
> Maybe I'm better off being a librarian. No marking, no OFSTED pressure.



I'm not sure you should be a teacher, you already want to tell your headmaster off, what if you then have to be really involved in all the ridiculousness people have posted about.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2013)

nagapie said:


> I'm not sure you should be a teacher, you already want to tell your headmaster off, what if you then have to be really involved in all the ridiculousness people have posted about.



He's out of order and needs telling.


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## nagapie (Sep 29, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> He's out of order and needs telling.



Maybe you should just jump straight to union rep, there's definitely a need for more of those of the bolshy variety.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2013)

I definitely will if I go permanent. There doesn't seem to be any organising at all.
Then they can never get rid of me


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## treefrog (Sep 29, 2013)

Sorry, it's very late here and I'm just going to bed. Being a union rep in these places is just putting a huge fucking target on your back.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2013)

Really? I would have thought it made you harder to get rid of


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## treefrog (Sep 29, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Really? I would have thought it made you harder to get rid of


Or they can make the job tough enough that you leave for the sake of your own sanity. They don't want teachers to _leave, _they want them to be compliant. I've been a union rep on and off for years now and each time I've been the first penguin off the iceberg. Solidarity is hard to come by when the union is seen as the enemy by people who were plebs themselves not that long ago.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2013)

I don't even know which Union I could join actually, and I'd only be representing myself.


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## existentialist (Sep 29, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't even know which Union I could join actually, and I'd only be representing myself.


It's the classic chicken/egg problem. If you haven't got a union, but you start organising, you are going to become Uncle Target in about four microseconds. But because you won't really have a union, or much of a relationship with your regional bods, you're going to be pretty out in the open and vulnerable.

I ran into trouble like this when I, along with a few colleagues, attempted to get USDAW in at the department store I was working in at the time. The employers did everything they had to do, legally, as far as facilitating meetings, etc. was concerned. But in between times, we were being painted as right bolsheviks to the rest of the staff - most of whom weren't bright enough to see through it - and being given a very hard time, all the shitty jobs, picked up on the slightest slip-up, etc. The attempt to organise failed - mostly down to apathy, helped along by some mischief-making from the department managers, for whom the last desirable thing would be a unionised workforce.

After that, rather discouraged, I decided that if I didn't like the way an employer was, I'd leave, simple as that.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2013)

I am a Bolshevik though! I don't mind being painted as one! 
Does anyone know what Union non-teaching staff can join? It'll be one of the shitty ones like Unison, won't it?


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## treefrog (Sep 29, 2013)

Apparently the last person to make a real go of being a union rep at the school was forced out in pretty ugly circumstances. I underplayed my previous union stuff in my interview (don't ask don't tell, and when it had been on my CV I didn't get a single interview for six months  ) but once the previous regional/national stuff came out then my card was marked 

So over it.


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## Thora (Sep 29, 2013)

Find out what most people in your school are.  At my place all the non-teaching staff are Unison so it seemed stupid to join someone else.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2013)

I have a feeling no one is in a union at my place


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## spanglechick (Sep 29, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I have a feeling no one is in a union at my place


it's possible, but i'd be surprised.  teachers are so heavily unionised because of legal protection in the case of a kids saying you'd hit them or whatever, and that's not something support staff don't have to worry about.

at our place i'd say about 60% of the student-facing support staff are in a union, afaik.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2013)

I shall ask around


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## nagapie (Sep 29, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I shall ask around



You really need to be unionised as you work with children, same reason as teachers. I wouldn't put union stuff on my CV but we had some very organised and knowledgeable reps for years and you couldn't target them, they were too savvy. I think the issue is more about having the time to do it properly. The support staff at my school are either Unison or GMB, which reminds me I need to tell my new team to join up.


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## existentialist (Sep 29, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I am a Bolshevik though! I don't mind being painted as one!
> Does anyone know what Union non-teaching staff can join? It'll be one of the shitty ones like Unison, won't it?


I don't want to seem impolite, OU, but you display a disarming naievete on certain subjects on here.

Assuming that's a genuine disarming naivete, and not done for the benefit of the internet, your career as a union organiser would be characterised by a sequence of completely incomprehensible, unjust, unexpected and just plain unfair things happening to you, that would leave you frustrated and angry.


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## isvicthere? (Sep 29, 2013)

I know it's no comfort, but you're not alone.

http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6019893

According to this 2009 study (and it _can't_ have got better under the tories) between 30-50% of teachers quit within five years of starting, and 12% quit or retire every year.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I don't want to seem impolite, OU, but you display a disarming naievete on certain subjects on here.
> 
> Assuming that's a genuine disarming naivete, and not done for the benefit of the internet, your career as a union organiser would be characterised by a sequence of completely incomprehensible, unjust, unexpected and just plain unfair things happening to you, that would leave you frustrated and angry.


I don't really know what you mean, so perhaps you are right


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## Looby (Sep 29, 2013)

How being a TU rep or even a member affects you can depend very much on your immediate management team.

Since being a TU rep I have had two managers who are members. They are generally supportive of my union activities and as I record and report my facilities time each month and don't take the piss, they have left me to it.

The two other managers I've had weren't members and anti-union. I believe that my TU work has led me to be victimised and singled out by them. Both managers chose to do this when I was at a weak point and was too upset to pursue anything. 

I would never put my TU history on a job application unless it was for some related TU FTO post or certain charity posts. 

A strong union branch is often seen as a hindrance to management and not a help. This is of course bollocks as a unionised workplace is actually cheaper for them. Fewer employment tribunals, fewer sackings, better health and safety etc etc


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## existentialist (Sep 29, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't really know what you mean, so perhaps you are right


Thing is, being a union rep *can* bring out the most unreasonable, irrational hostility in your line management. It shouldn't but it can.

So you may well feel that joining a union is a sensible, pragmatic step to take, and that (say) becoming the branch organiser is a reasonable and logical move. But in the overheated and somewhat paranoid atmosphere that can prevail in workplaces, that can appear to some as an act of war: to some, you have just performed the labour relations equivalent act of conducting a secret nuclear test. The assumption can be made that nobody joins a union for any reason other than negative ones - political, "troublemaking", or to do something unreasonable like assert their rights.

Particularly - IME - in local government, and from what I gather in education, there is a fiction that says it's OK to have rights, so long as you don't start exercising them. Line management, who are often time-serving types who did their stint at the coal face recently enough to remind us (often _ad nauseam_) that they've been there, but long enough ago to conveniently forget what it was actually like, tend to favour an approach whereby everybody's prepared to do whatever it takes to get the job done: then mission creep means the job needs more and more to be able to get done, and the fact that the people doing the job are a finite resource is handily glossed over.

Until people start doing provocative things like joining unions. At that point, line management scratch their heads and say to themselves "why would _he_ need to join a union? It's all lovely here, terribly fair and reasonable, we work as a team and we Get The Job Done..._what's he up to??? _". From there on, it's all self-fulfilling prophecies - you are treated with suspicion by a management chain whose paranoia is driven by the fact that, unconsciously or not, they know that they're the meat in the sandwich that is their management pressing down on them, and the compliant ununionised workforce under them that has been apparently happy to be squeezed. But when the bottom layer of the sandwich starts pressing *UP*, for example by saying "No, actually, we aren't going to carry on working unpaid overtime or covering for absent colleagues who are off on long-term sick", they feel the pain, and all of a sudden it's the uppity proles who are responsible for that pain, not a system that has been cheeseparing every last bit of capacity out of itself.

Very little of this is logical - if you sat down with most of these types, and took them through it step by step, they'd agree that their demands are unreasonable; they'd agree that in the circumstances, *they* would be joining the union and saying "enough is enough". But when you complete the circle and invite them to put those hypotheticals into practice...well, it's like watching them grab wet soap - the cognitive dissonance kicks in and they _just can't_ get their heads around it. It is a matter for survival to them that the bottom of the sandwich doesn't squeeze up (OK, this metaphor could do with some improvement  ), because they aren't able to/are unwilling to squeeze up themselves, so therefore the bottom of the sandwich must be wrong to squeeze up...and anything it does to make that happen is therefore wrong.

And people who decide to be union members, or, worse, organisers/branch stewards, etc, are clearly and obviously wrong. And must therefore be Dealt With.


And, as a postscript, I should say that this isn't just about class or power. I am a professional in my own field, and am part of a team managed by someone who is not a professional in that field. In terms of our professional competences, I imagine we would outrank her by some considerable amount. However, we regularly encounter this strange looking-glass world where corporate policy impinges on our professional roles, and we find ourselves being told to do things in a way which is in direct conflict with our professional obligations. It works (just), all the time some troublemaking bastard (hi *waves*) doesn't go around drawing people's attention to the fact.

Something very similar happens in education and social work, and, I daresay, all over the NHS. It's madness, really, because what it effectively does is to chase the committed caring ones out, because they are the ones whose heads are exploding at trying to rationalise the passion and commitment they bring to the job against the managerial imperatives to just do as they're told, not what they came into the profession to actually *do*.


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## Corax (Sep 29, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Managerialism (i.e. the idea that everything and anything in life is a process can and should be quantified and managed in order to achieve a desired result) is saturated with such measurement, and can be claimed to *kill* not only trust and mutuality, but creativity, employee loyalty (which, of course, all managerialists *demand* as a right!) and ambition.
> Achievement has been sacrificed on the altar of attainment of meaningless "metrics".  A company hitting it's "best practice" target for customer relations is fine as far as it goes, but that doesn't actually translate, in many cases, to improved process, just to a ticked box (and perhaps a managerial bonus).


Couldn't agree more, but unfortunately I work in an arena where such talk is regarded as heresy.  Do you have any solid evidence you could link me to - peer reviewed research etc?


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2013)

Corax said:


> Couldn't agree more, but unfortunately I work in an arena where such talk is regarded as heresy.  Do you have any solid evidence you could link me to - peer reviewed research etc?



I'll have a look through my .pdf archives, and run a couple of searches on my ATHENS account.


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## Corax (Sep 29, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'll have a look through my .pdf archives, and run a couple of searches on my ATHENS account.


Ta, appreciated.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Thing is, being a union rep *can* bring out the most unreasonable, irrational hostility in your line management. It shouldn't but it can.
> 
> So you may well feel that joining a union is a sensible, pragmatic step to take, and that (say) becoming the branch organiser is a reasonable and logical move. But in the overheated and somewhat paranoid atmosphere that can prevail in workplaces, that can appear to some as an act of war: to some, you have just performed the labour relations equivalent act of conducting a secret nuclear test. The assumption can be made that nobody joins a union for any reason other than negative ones - political, "troublemaking", or to do something unreasonable like assert their rights.
> 
> ...


I was referring to your perception of my alleged naïveté.
It sounds almost like you are discouraging me from joining a union.
I doubt I'd become a rep unless I was settled in comfortably in my role and if I felt I had sufficient time and energy, which is difficult if you work in a school. 
I don't think what may be true of attitudes towards joining a union is true across the board (I don't think you were claiming this?). In my old job is was just the done thing. No one thought anything of it and my union worked hard for me, the union reps were highly thought of, and there did not appear to be any of the hostility towards them from management that you describe.
I accept that it may be different in a school.


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## nagapie (Sep 29, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I was referring to your perception of my alleged naïveté.
> It sounds almost like you are discouraging me from joining a union.
> I doubt I'd become a rep unless I was settled in comfortably in my role and if I felt I had sufficient time and energy, which is difficult if you work in a school.
> I don't think what may be true of attitudes towards joining a union is true across the board (I don't think you were claiming this?). In my old job is was just the done thing. No one thought anything of it and my union worked hard for me, the union reps were highly thought of, and there did not appear to be any of the hostility towards them from management that you describe.
> I accept that it may be different in a school.



It really does depend on the school. Although I don't think any of our Heads has ever enjoyed the union reps, I never knew either of them to be targeted and they are well supported by borough reps. Also anyone with any suss joins a union when they are a teacher, it's a heavily unionised profession. And anyone working in the public sector who isn't in a union must be crazy with all the shit that has been going down.


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## existentialist (Sep 29, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I was referring to your perception of my alleged naïveté.
> It sounds almost like you are discouraging me from joining a union.


No. That remark was made in response to your comment about starting one/becoming an organiser/bolshevik 

I wouldn't discourage anyone from joining a union, but it is probably true to say that some employers will still take even that as some kind of declaration of hostilities.



Orang Utan said:


> I don't think what may be true of attitudes towards joining a union is true across the board (I don't think you were claiming this?). In my old job is was just the done thing. No one thought anything of it and my union worked hard for me, the union reps were highly thought of, and there did not appear to be any of the hostility towards them from management that you describe.
> I accept that it may be different in a school.


Indeed, it wasn't meant to be a general description of the situation. But it's probably worth pointing out that some of those attitudes may well be entrenched within the organisation, even if they're not overt - I know that my lot (on the non-teaching side), while ostensibly very pro-union, gain an awful lot of "side" when it comes to any upcoming strike action, etc.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2013)

existentialist said:


> No. That remark was made in response to your comment about starting one/becoming an organiser/bolshevik


I wasn't being entirely serious. I'm way too lazy to be a proper firebrand! I do enjoy arguing with bosses though. Especially my current one.


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## existentialist (Sep 29, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I wasn't being entirely serious. I'm way too lazy to be a proper firebrand! I do enjoy arguing with bosses though. Especially my current one.


I think my boss is frightened of me!


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## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2013)

It's weird working in a place where everyone seems to meekly accept whatever senseless initiative that is launched by management. They grumble about it plenty, but not to the boss. In my old job, if you disagreed with something, you said so immediately. It didn't even necessarily involve union representation. It was just expected that you spoke your mind. 
I guess people just don't have the energy to speak out cos they know they'll just be ignored.


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## existentialist (Sep 29, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> It's weird working in a place where everyone seems to meekly accept whatever senseless initiative that is launched by management. They grumble about it plenty, but not to the boss. In my old job, if you disagreed with something, you said so immediately. It didn't even necessarily involve union representation. It was just expected that you spoke your mind.
> I guess people just don't have the energy to speak out cos they know they'll just be ignored.


I went into local authority work from a business background. It took me several months to realise that my enthusiastic and innovative suggestions for improvements weren't just being ignored or forgotten about, but were actively unwelcome. That hurt to start with, before I realised that it wasn't personal: I was now working in an environment where, far from being encouraged to find ways in which things could be done better/faster/more efficiently, people here were looking for ways of keeping things exactly the same: here, nobody got fired for doing things the same way they'd been doing them for years, and the less you did, the less there was to go wrong and catch recriminations for.

I realise, looking back, that I dealt with that by developing a kind of work-related schizophrenia: part of me just says "what's the use?" every time I encounter yet another bit of futilely stupid petty bureacracy, while another part of me gets resentful and subversive, and looks for ways to challenge the status quo and make the people responsible feel uncomfortable, ideally without them realising what I'm up to.

So far, so good, but your comment about "I guess people just don't have the energy to speak out cos they know they'll just be ignored" struck a chord with me, because that is _exactly _how I feel. I am tired. Tired of marking time, dotting i's and crossing t's because that's Just How It's Done, tired of watching the kind of bureacratic stupidities that must have Kafka turning in his grave, and tired of biting my lip and not telling the whole shower what a bunch of fuckwit moronic navel-gazing self-serving mindless cunts they all are, starting from the Chief Executive and working downwards.

And I am sure I'm not unusual. How many people with a little bit of vision, initiative or drive must there be, doing jobs for employers where they KNOW they're being used at a fraction of their capabilities, and/or where they KNOW that being good at their jobs doesn't just count for nothing, but actively counts against them.

And then I wonder - is it any wonder the system is like it is, if it is, after all, a spectacularly effective way of ensuring that all the initiative and vision is filtered out long before promotion looms, so that the people who are running the show are, effectively, the ones who have demonstrated that they can survive in a system which mitigates against initiative and vision...and there's one way I can think of that such survival is best achieved


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## nagapie (Oct 2, 2013)

Interestingly I ran into an ex colleague on the bus yesterday. She is a trained Drama teacher but taught, very successfully, PSHE at my school for years. When we had a big restructure a few years ago, she left to do a milliner's course. Then I heard she was doing some really interesting community stuff but not in London. Turns out she has returned to teaching at one of the local secondaries. Although she got heavily involved in theatre, it was all volunteer stuff and didn't lead to any long term job prospects. A bit depressing as I thought she'd escaped. 

She was telling me how the students at her school have to say a pledge at the start of every lesson. Between pledges and what's your target, how are you going to get there and have you got there by the end of the lesson, teachers struggle to teach anything worthwhile in a lesson these days. It's really quite disgusting and scary.


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## chilango (Oct 2, 2013)

Wtf is a "pledge" at the start of a lesson?


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## nagapie (Oct 2, 2013)

chilango said:


> Wtf is a "pledge" at the start of a lesson?



I didn't ask the exact wording but I'm sure it's exactly what it sounds like.


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## chilango (Oct 2, 2013)

nagapie said:


> I didn't ask the exact wording but I'm sure it's exactly what it sounds like.



I'm speechless.


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## chilango (Oct 2, 2013)

This kind of thing?

http://www.woodsidehighschool.co.uk/Our-Students/Student-Pledge/


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## Belushi (Oct 2, 2013)

I left school 25 years ago.  When I talk to teachers and friends with kids at secondary school it sounds like a very different place nowadays.


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## BlueSquareThing (Oct 2, 2013)

chilango said:


> This kind of thing?
> 
> http://www.woodsidehighschool.co.uk/Our-Students/Student-Pledge/


Ugh - horrible list of "rules" as well. Bit ironic as they're a bus and enterprise college - I'd have thought so many rules and right ways of doing things would knock just about any enterprise out of the kids.

I've heard of these pledges before - isn't it one of Wilshaw's old schools that uses it or something?

I really must find out it Summerhill need any staff.


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## chilango (Oct 2, 2013)

I worked at a school, overseas, where the pupils had to parade and salute the national flag once a week, and obvs. there's the good ol' USA and their pledge of allegiance. Even here there are schools, private ones mind, where the pupils dress up in martial uniforms and march around a parade ground before being "inspected" by the head/RSM/random VIP. 

But this is, somehow, worse. Creepier. Insidious.


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## frogwoman (Oct 2, 2013)

wtf is all this. i did a teaching qualification last year, i did some shifts as a cover supervisor as well as teaching primary school age kids at a language school and enjoyed it. the pledge sounds creepy as fuck. 

should i not bother then?


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## frogwoman (Oct 2, 2013)

or just stick to boring low paid admin-related temp work that i could do in my sleep? joy


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## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> or just stick to boring admin-related temp work? joy


for you frogwoman the teaching is over


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## frogwoman (Oct 2, 2013)

my plan was to work doing this sort of shit and the odd cover supervisor's thing and save to do a PGCE. should i just forget that idea now? I dont hate the work im doing but its shit pay and very "flexible" and theres no stability financial or otherwise, if you dont come to work (through sickness etc) you dont get paid etc, i dont want to be doing it for the rest of my life


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2013)

nagapie said:


> spangles, I'm sure you've considered this but have you thought about just making teaching easier for yourself? Being a teacher is really tough at the moment and getting tougher but working part time could give you some respite. Yes, it's a pay cut. 4 days is not unmanageable financially, three days more so but still a lot better paid than other areas that have been suggested.
> 
> What about giving up HOD? Yes, you'd need to move school but that sounds like no great loss. I am an acting HOD and would quite frankly love to just drop back to where I was. HOD requires too much.



I've done all those things - dropped down to 3, stepped down from HoD, and work for the same employer as spangles and tbh.. it hasn't stopped me wanting to hand in my notice.  As I've moaned on here. .I've been doing 45-50 hour weeks (on a 3 day a week t/table) and it's not even so much the hours as all the other things Spangles has mentioned.

I am hoping that I can find a job somewhere else, but I fear it is the way it's going for many many schools.

I have no idea what I'd do if I didn't teach.

eta, I say I work 3 days a week but I'm in again tomorrow and a few weeks ago I paid my kids' nurseries to take them for a day because I had so much work to do I wouldn't be able to complete it all despite working all Sat/Sun. 

Also to say - it is all the outstanding teachers in my place who are looking to leave.  Because we are the ones who do this - work the ridiculous hours required to tick all the boxes.  What upsets me is that I don't mind working long hours if I'm planning/marking - I very much enjoy creating lessons in my subject and marking, whilst not a pleasure, is often very rewarding (I may be a bit in the minority there.. ).


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## frogwoman (Oct 2, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> for you frogwoman the teaching is over


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## frogwoman (Oct 2, 2013)

english/ICT classes for adults? i imagine that's been cut to fuck as well. i really wanted to do it.


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## chilango (Oct 2, 2013)

frogwoman.

Stick with your plan. Keep saving. This shit in education ain't sustainable. The pendulum _will_ swing back.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 2, 2013)

I don't want to spoil the mood, but I think teaching/education is better and more progressive than it was in my day. It's easy to watch a lot of teaching and think it isn't as good as it used to be. We can't help comparing it with our own as if ours was perfect. There's LOADS of things teachers do better now, but it's all despite interference from above, not because of it


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## frogwoman (Oct 2, 2013)

Incidentally I recently tried to contact Ofsted, in regards to a place where I worked previously (a private school). They told me that Ofsted does not handle complaints about private schools and that if I wanted to make a complaint about it I would have to put my complaint in writing and send it to the department of education. 

WTF??? 

they inspect private schools (although they were only there for like a day, and hardly got to see anything) but yet if you have a complaint to make about them they don't deal with it??


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## purenarcotic (Oct 2, 2013)

Would the Independent Schools Council listen to a complaint, frogwoman?


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## frogwoman (Oct 2, 2013)

that's what im hoping to do. the only thing stopping me from reporting everything that went on at that place is the possibility that the school will come back to my agency and say i was lying and then i won't be able to get a job anywhere.


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## equationgirl (Oct 2, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't want to spoil the mood, but I think teaching/education is better and more progressive than it was in my day. It's easy to watch a lot of teaching and think it isn't as good as it used to be. We can't help comparing it with our own as if ours was perfect. There's LOADS of things teachers do better now, but it's all despite interference from above, not because of it


It might be more progressive but's clear that many teachers are being worked to breaking point by the system of constant inspections and assessments and paperwork and mocksteds etc. That's not better.


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## scifisam (Oct 2, 2013)

EFL actually is worth looking into. Some senior teaching roles pay OK and there are specialist roles at some language schools, like resources writers and "coordinated learning specialists," though I'm not certain what that is. Managerial roles also pay OK. Barely enough to cover your mortgage but so, so much more enjoyable.

If you're willing and able to teach basic skills literacy (I seem to remember you taught English before), there is still quite a bit of that around despite the cuts and it's often full time. That field does have some problems with overassessment and paperwork, but nothing compared to secondary. It is quite a competitive field but at least you are qualified.



isvicthere? said:


> I know it's no comfort, but you're not alone.
> 
> http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6019893
> 
> According to this 2009 study (and it _can't_ have got better under the tories) between 30-50% of teachers quit within five years of starting, and 12% quit or retire every year.



I'm not sure that study's so reliable; it claims you only need 2 GCSEs to be a teacher and that most teachers don't even have 2 A-levels. The drop-out rate is high but, in my experience not quite as high as that. Although "30-50%" is a uselessly broad range anyway.


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## nagapie (Oct 2, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't want to spoil the mood, but I think teaching/education is better and more progressive than it was in my day. It's easy to watch a lot of teaching and think it isn't as good as it used to be. We can't help comparing it with our own as if ours was perfect. There's LOADS of things teachers do better now, but it's all despite interference from above, not because of it



Teaching is definitely better than when I was in school, or at least it was when I started teaching 13 years ago. It's in the last 4 or 5 years that this really dodgy reductive stuff has started to take over. Some teachers complained about the introduction of the National Curriculum as being too prescriptive but it's nothing like what teachers are being asked to do now.


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## BlueSquareThing (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> english/ICT classes for adults? i imagine that's been cut to fuck as well. i really wanted to do it.


There might be some work in schools as a one to one tutor. We have a few of these, including for English, to work with individuals and small groups, including ones who are English learners but also other sets of kids as well. I have no idea whether you have to be a qualified teacher to do it, although I doubt it tbh, or how the pay is, but it might be worth a look perhaps - as a way to tell you whether or not you want to do the job if nothing else.

Depending on how strong your ICT skills are you might be able to get some work in that field as well - in theory Computing is about to take over from ICT but in practice that doesn't seem to be occurring as far as I can tell.


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## chilango (Oct 3, 2013)

BlueSquareThing said:


> Depending on how strong your ICT skills are you might be able to get some work in that field as well - in theory Computing is about to take over from ICT but in practice that doesn't seem to be occurring as far as I can tell.



OTOH though there's been occasional mutterings about abolishing a separate IT subject completely and having it incorporated into every other subject instead!

Thing with a lot of these initiatives is they can slide into "fads" only to be replaced by the latest big idea a few short years later. The education industry needs this, and so do politicians and the media.

That's one reason why I'm confident the current obsession with Dragons' Den as a pedagogical model will soon be over. 

Soon enough there'll be howls from the media bemoaning a lack of "cultural" education in our schools and calls for more literature/art history/whatever. 

Academies won't last. They'll mutate into something else.

As for teachers working conditions? They're not sustainable. I'd hope that things will ease, slightly, when Gove goes in a year or two. The problem however at the moment is that any high drop out rate can be easily absorbed by the huge number of unemployed teachers out there. It might take a while before this plays out.


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## goldenecitrone (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> english/ICT classes for adults? i imagine that's been cut to fuck as well. i really wanted to do it.



Yes and no. My colleague just got a job at Lambeth college and told me they have 2000 esol students there. So plenty of English teachers. I think there will always be plenty of these jobs in London. Not sure about the rest of the country though.


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## frogwoman (Oct 3, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Would the Independent Schools Council listen to a complaint, frogwoman?



I think they probably would, that's a good point. There are private schools and private schools, there are dodgy fly by night operations that cater to intrenational students whose wealthy parents dont know the rules here or middle class people who have come into a bit of money and then there's places like Eton.


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## BlueSquareThing (Oct 3, 2013)

chilango said:


> OTOH though there's been occasional mutterings about abolishing a separate IT subject completely and having it incorporated into every other subject instead!


Although, technically, it's supposed to be Computing now of course - which is lovely in theory but not quite so great in practice as it seems management don't really get the idea that Computing is a bit more specialised. It's good for me as I can geek it up and, frankly, I don't think I've ever met anyone senior that understands even something like web design let along a simple language like Python. Quite how long it lasts for though, and whether anyone actually adopts it properly, is  something we'll have to see.

What is interesting, though, is that almost all parents think a half decent IT/Computing education is really, really important for their kids. I assume they do actually believe this anyway rather than are just being nice to me cause I teach it. We've picked up kids from a Free School which opened locally and doesn't teach any IT - partly because parents are concerned at the lack of breadth in their curriculum and the total lack of technical subjects specifically. Yes, it's supposed to be across the curriculum, but this seems to extend about as far as knocking up a PowerPoint or a poster or doing some research - which is essentially primary school level.

But, yeah, it might go that way for a bit. Tbh I'm so pissed off just now that it might be nice if it did - at least I might get a redundancy pay off...


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## spanglechick (Oct 3, 2013)

i wonder if programming should be taught as a gcse option as an alternative to a modern foreign language?  or both, obv.  but focusing on it as being learning a language.


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## chilango (Oct 3, 2013)

IME serious adoption of IT in subjects rather than as a subject on its own has fallen down for three main reasons.

1/ Lots of teachers just don't have the knowledge and skills to do it justice. The kids are often several steps ahead.

2/ SLT are shit scared of stuff that is out of their control, and much of the useful IT stuff is just that. 

3/ schools are often trapped into using limited and rapidly dating IT systems that they've invested heavily in.

Oh well.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 3, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i wonder if programming should be taught as a gcse option as an alternative to a modern foreign language?  or both, obv.  but focusing on it as being learning a language.



both...   when I started at our school we were a dept of 13 - now we're 3.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 3, 2013)

fwiw.. I've always described maths as being a language I'm shit at.


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## spanglechick (Oct 3, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> both...   when I started at our school we were a dept of 13 - now we're 3.


yah - you'll know more about this, but what's behind / what do we do about the decline in popularity of MFL?  I've really noticed it across my career.

mind you.  that's two more teachers than there are of drama at my school so...  don't look this way for sympathy.


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## Hellsbells (Oct 3, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> english/ICT classes for adults? i imagine that's been cut to fuck as well. i really wanted to do it.


 
Not where I work! Theres massive demand.


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## existentialist (Oct 3, 2013)

chilango said:


> IME serious adoption of IT in subjects rather than as a subject on its own has fallen down for three main reasons.
> 
> 1/ Lots of teachers just don't have the knowledge and skills to do it justice. The kids are often several steps ahead.
> 
> ...


This.

There's a major problem with teaching IT in schools: IT is still, even after all this time, a premium career - a good IT specialist can earn the kind of money in the business sector that teachers could only dream of. The kind of ITers who would work for a teaching salary are either a) incompetent to get a decent job in the IT sector, or b) idealistic enough to want to see teaching as a vocation. IT being what it is, and the sort of people who go into it (generalising frantically here) being who they are, that is not a hugely frequent occurrence.

So the people who end up teaching IT in school may well be competent to do so, and enthusiastic enough, but will lack the real hard coalface IT skills that would make it worthwhile teaching in schools. It'd be a bit like getting someone who'd spend a bit of time in a French convent to teach street French to schoolkids...


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## equationgirl (Oct 4, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> both...   when I started at our school we were a dept of 13 - now we're 3.


Fucks sake - you must be doing the work of 4 people


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## equationgirl (Oct 4, 2013)

One of my dad's big rants about the high school me and my brothers went to was about the quality of the IT curriculum and the teacher who taught it (she'd been a secretary who retrained). It wasn't an option for me at GCSE and I think my brothers were one of the first years to do it. I saw the exam paper and would have scored a decent mark without doing the classes, although my dad worked in the sector and taught us lots.

It seems not a lot has changed in 20 years...


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## equationgirl (Oct 4, 2013)

IT and software are rapidly changing areas. A teacher for that subject will need to do a lot to keep any skills current and if the systems are outdated, they may as well go home.


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## nagapie (Oct 4, 2013)

There is currently no money in schools for up to date IT and no will from the government who thinks everyone needs to be proficient with a quill and parchment. Sadly IT offers not only real opportunities for future employment and innovation but also would enable a number of students who struggle with the 3 Rs to surge ahead with their learning. Almost seems like a conspiracy


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## existentialist (Oct 4, 2013)

nagapie said:


> There is currently no money in schools for up to date IT and no will from the government who thinks everyone needs to be proficient with a quill and parchment. Sadly IT offers not only real opportunities for future employment and innovation but also would enable a number of students who struggle with the 3 Rs to surge ahead with their learning. Almost seems like a conspiracy


I think, particularly under right-wing goverments, education is about schooling conformity and obedience, not developing careers.


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## BlueSquareThing (Oct 4, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i wonder if programming should be taught as a gcse option as an alternative to a modern foreign language?  or both, obv.  but focusing on it as being learning a language.


In theory everyone has to be offered the opportunity of Computing at GCSE when the new NC comes in. Of course, that doesn't apply to the majority of schools so they can continue to offer an OCT National in typing things up and doing screenshots...

It's also, theoretically, a Science option - they could do one science and Computing and get their two sciences.

Personally I'm very happy with it becoming available. I just wonder what our sparkly new academy sponsors are going to do with it - quite likely cut out our current core provision that gets kids making video, webpages and animation I imagine so that 90% of them don't go anywhere near structured IT learning.

But at least that might get me the redundancy payment...


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## BlueSquareThing (Oct 4, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> One of my dad's big rants about the high school me and my brothers went to was about the quality of the IT curriculum and the teacher who taught it (she'd been a secretary who retrained). It wasn't an option for me at GCSE and I think my brothers were one of the first years to do it. I saw the exam paper and would have scored a decent mark without doing the classes, although my dad worked in the sector and taught us lots.
> 
> It seems not a lot has changed in 20 years...


Depends - some of the Computing GCSE stuff allows kids to be doing proper OO style programming; I've seen stuff written for VB for example which is at a pretty solid level (at least as advanced as the OU stuff I did last year).


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## BlueSquareThing (Oct 4, 2013)

existentialist said:


> This.So the people who end up teaching IT in school may well be competent to do so, and enthusiastic enough, but will lack the real hard coalface IT skills that would make it worthwhile teaching in schools. It'd be a bit like getting someone who'd spend a bit of time in a French convent to teach street French to schoolkids...


Well, yes, sure. I'm a geographer by trade but had enough of an interest to get into proper Computing, much of it self taught but added to by half an OU degree in it (mainly at my own expense because I want to do it). Very often though it's done by complete non-specialists - my son is taught IT by his art teacher. They seem to spend most of their time learning how to use PowerPoint and doing E-Safety for a term and half. Whereas mine are using css to build web stuff and doing movie editing and flash animation.


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## BlueSquareThing (Oct 4, 2013)

chilango said:


> IME serious adoption of IT in subjects rather than as a subject on its own has fallen down for three main reasons.
> 
> 1/ Lots of teachers just don't have the knowledge and skills to do it justice. The kids are often several steps ahead.
> 
> ...


Agree with all of that. Add in that there's a massive time element with learning how to do new stuff - two kids talked to me about mods for Minecraft yesterday and I suggested we try to make one; trouble is that although I can do Java I haven't the foggiest how to actually do a mod. Looks like I'd need at least a solid weekend learning it before we can do what they really want to do - but with new courses coming out of my ears how the fuck can I find the time to do that? Even if I could then get anything working via the school filters...


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## BlueSquareThing (Oct 4, 2013)

Sorry, this got derailed into IT and so on.

I was in the staffroom yesterday with our SHaD teacher who broke down in tears with the pressure her line management meeting had put her under. Looks like SLT have to rewrite their development plans because they were shit when Ofsted came in and so she got shed loads of crap from them about hers being shit - despite having zero guidance from them in the first instance. Our music teacher is in the same boat as well by the looks of it.

And then we get a memo that we all have to go to certain after school pd sessions now - result of Ofsted thinking teaching isn't all good, so SLT need to tick another fucking box to show they're trying to do something about. Just what we need - but more pressure added on to us, bit less time to think and plan and do something useful.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 4, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Fucks sake - you must be doing the work of 4 people



It doesn't really work like that... we have dropped a language and all students used to have the option to study 2 languages but now it's just one, so less teachers are needed.

But the workload has massively increased too as we used to have language assistants and people to do admin stuff and also the non-teaching demands by far outstrip the teaching requirements.

I expect they'll drop my language at some point - or I bet they will if I leave.


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## catinthehat (Oct 12, 2013)

Six weeks into term and we have had two suicides and one serious attempt.  I have around 100 students and so far 17 have identified themselves as self harming.  I have just come back from a meeting with teachers from other colleges and they were saying they have had cases of malnutrition.  We have half term next week and several students reporting they had no food or money for the week so we have been bringing in food bags for urgent cases. I love teaching but the amount of fixing people or attempting to is starting to get ridiculous.


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## cesare (Oct 12, 2013)

catinthehat said:


> Six weeks into term and we have had two suicides and one serious attempt.  I have around 100 students and so far 17 have identified themselves as self harming.  I have just come back from a meeting with teachers from other colleges and they were saying they have had cases of malnutrition.  We have half term next week and several students reporting they had no food or money for the week so we have been bringing in food bags for urgent cases. I love teaching but the amount of fixing people or attempting to is starting to get ridiculous.


Fucking hell  Puts things in perspective.


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## existentialist (Oct 12, 2013)

catinthehat said:


> Six weeks into term and we have had two suicides and one serious attempt.  I have around 100 students and so far 17 have identified themselves as self harming.  I have just come back from a meeting with teachers from other colleges and they were saying they have had cases of malnutrition.  We have half term next week and several students reporting they had no food or money for the week so we have been bringing in food bags for urgent cases. I love teaching but the amount of fixing people or attempting to is starting to get ridiculous.


Bloody hell. I work at the sharp end, and that's a staggering casualty rate. Is there professional support available (CAMHS, counsellors, etc)?


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## catinthehat (Oct 12, 2013)

We have counselors for students - they were new students so no one had really formed any relationships with them.  There was a concerted effort not to give it publicity in light of the contagen effect that has been experienced elsewhere.  There was a seriously bad rate a couple of years ago in a nearby town which was all over the press but these cases have been kept on the low down for the most part.  Its a pretty peaceful rural place and we tend to have an easy time in terms of conflicts and problems - its only a view but I think there is an increase in the sort of turning it inward behavior.  Most of our 'experts' are not really experts though......and I think in some cases more harm than good gets done.  Its maybe just a horrible coincidence - we dont have any real issues with drugs, crime and such - way below national averages.  Even the ones who are going to be a shoe in for university seem to be lacking the spark of optimism that used to be present.  They are not deaf to the ongoing pronouncements of CEOs and politicians banging on about how they are unemployable, illiterate and so on.  I am no fan of false praise or prizes for all - but I hesitate a lot before I give a low grade now pondering what if that is the straw that breaks this particular student.  There is mad stuff as well - out of a class of 30 last week about a third of them were drinking energy drinks first thing - and the fact that they increasingly see their teachers as the only adult that is going to be able to help them with stuff like housing, benefit, personal stuff. I know this has always been the case for the few - but its increasingly the norm.  Its like an epidemic of sadness and hopelessness.


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## goldenecitrone (Oct 13, 2013)

Most teachers are shit, but it doesn't matter as education is all down to genetics anyway, says Gove's adviser. 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/11/genetics-teaching-gove-adviser


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## treefrog (Oct 13, 2013)

catinthehat said:


> Six weeks into term and we have had two suicides and one serious attempt.  I have around 100 students and so far 17 have identified themselves as self harming.  I have just come back from a meeting with teachers from other colleges and they were saying they have had cases of malnutrition.  We have half term next week and several students reporting they had no food or money for the week so we have been bringing in food bags for urgent cases. *I love teaching but the amount of fixing people or attempting to is starting to get ridiculous.*


 at all of this but the bolded part if the crux, innit? Been giving it a lot of thought over the holidays (last day today). 

We're expected to counsel these kids, keep a constant watch for signs of illness, abuse, malnutrition, lack of fitness, depression, without ever being given the training or time to even talk to our students properly, and without any thought for our own well-being as a result of dealing with theirs. We have to turn them into obedient citizens who are capable of critical, independent thought whilst simultaneously spoon-feeding them rote-learned information they'll never use after they sit exams that they ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT FAIL that are also too easy because the pass rate keeps going up. We must individualise our teaching for each child whilst also fitting our teaching into an increasingly rigid straitjacket of jargon and paperwork and be fun and fresh and innovative whilst being crushed under the weight of monothought newspeak ("no use of the word "doing" in class to describe student learning!"). We spend $$ of our own money on prizes and incentives, lunches and snacks for the starving whilst being told that we're heartless, lazy scroungers who get too many holidays. 

I reached a glorious realisation over the last week, as my marking piled up (I couldn't do it anyway as they changed the online system at work and it's not compatible with my laptop. Or something) and realised that I no longer give a fuck. I have spent the last 7 years busting my arse and trying my best and it's never, ever good enough. So fuck it.

From now on I shall arrive as late as possible, leave as early as possible, copy and paste my report comments and recycle my resources. I shall no longer put my hand up in meetings or volunteer more than the bare minimum of my time to fulfil my extra curricular requirements.

Because I love being in a classroom and working with children but I also value my mental health and I cannot, will not have another night where I lie on the floor in a foetal position, sobbing my heart out in the dark because my _fucking job _takes everything it can and leaves me with nothing. 

I love big brother.


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## nagapie (Oct 13, 2013)

treefrog said:


> From now on I shall arrive as late as possible, leave as early as possible, copy and paste my report comments and recycle my resources. I shall no longer put my hand up in meetings or volunteer more than the bare minimum of my time to fulfil my extra curricular requirements.



Tbf there is actually nothing wrong with some of that - arrive when work starts (as late as possible) and leave as early as possible (you won't burn out). These are things you have to do as a parent anyway and things that teachers should not be made to feel guilty for like they're bad if they do this, it doesn't negate how hard we work during the actual work hours. Recycling resources is also essential if you want to survive in teaching and some, not all of course, copying and pasting of reports is ok too as everyone needs the silly curriculum comments that sit alongside with the real stuff.


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## treefrog (Oct 13, 2013)

nagapie said:


> Tbf there is actually nothing wrong with some of that - arrive when work starts (as late as possible) and leave as early as possible (you won't burn out). These are things you have to do as a parent anyway and things that teachers should not be made to feel guilty for like they're bad if they do this, it doesn't negate how hard we work during the actual work hours. Recycling resources is also essential if you want to survive in teaching and some, not all of course, copying and pasting of reports is ok too as everyone needs the silly curriculum comments that sit alongside with the real stuff.


True. My school's vision on a 21st century learning environment runs absolutely counter to all of this of course, but they can stick their vision statement up their arse, along with their banning of certain words and spying on staff to make sure they toe the party line in private conversations.


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## nagapie (Oct 13, 2013)

treefrog said:


> True. My school's vision on a 21st century learning environment runs absolutely counter to all of this of course,



So do all schools. It's therefore up to teachers to take back some of the power themselves. I know easier said than done but if we don't do it for ourselves, no one else will.


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## catinthehat (Oct 13, 2013)

I am not sure how many people out side of education understand the extent to which it is all held together by the good will of staff - which is really hard to withdraw or reduce because are at the human end.  No one ever looks at the time it takes each new process - its costed in terms of all resources apart from the human ones.  We test all new students to see where they are in terms of level in comparison with the course they are on.  Because of the pressure to pass everyone you get people who are working at level 3 on level 5 courses.  You can have half the class below the level of the course and the fact that they have tested below means extra cash for the institution but it does not get to the classroom.  Combine that with bigger class numbers and continued pressure to get everyone through the time to spend 1 -1 to help those that are struggling academically or socially is reduced so it is harder to spot when someone is having a problem.  If you cant get to know them you cant see the signs as well so you spend your prep time and your lunch hour with them trying to do it and take the work home - I sort of accepted years ago that to do this job well it meant making it my entire life almost but the pay back was happy, successful students who gave you back plenty for what you had put in.  Now its more like wandering aimlessly through the wreckage.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 15, 2013)

So, is anyone striking or supporting the strike on Thursday? 
There will be a picket line, so I will not be working either.
I'm not sure how I'm supposed to broach this with management though.
I am agency and not in a union yet, so am worried slightly about my position as I don't want to jepoardise my employment. Are you supposed to warn them or do you just turn up on the day and refuse to cross the line?


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## girasol (Oct 15, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> So, is anyone striking or supporting the strike on Thursday?
> There will be a picket line, so I will not be working either.
> I'm not sure how I'm supposed to broach this with management though.
> I am agency and not in a union yet, so am worried slightly about my position as I don't want to jepoardise my employment. Are you supposed to warn them or do you just turn up on the day and refuse to cross the line?



My son's school is actually closed on that day, which I see as a positive thing.


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## spanglechick (Oct 15, 2013)

Even if the school closes, non striking staff are expected to go in.  There is always work to do. 


OU I would ask some people at your work.  Maybe the NUT rep could email their branch and ask for you.


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## goldenecitrone (Oct 15, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> So, is anyone striking or supporting the strike on Thursday?
> There will be a picket line, so I will not be working either.
> I'm not sure how I'm supposed to broach this with management though.
> I am agency and not in a union yet, so am worried slightly about my position as I don't want to jepoardise my employment. Are you supposed to warn them or do you just turn up on the day and refuse to cross the line?


 
Why not join the union today?


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## Orang Utan (Oct 15, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Why not join the union today?


I was going to join as soon as I get a permanent contract and the one I've investigated so far - ATL - seems really lame, so I am looking into others. It's hard to know which one to join!


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## gaijingirl (Oct 15, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I was going to join as soon as I get a permanent contract and the one I've investigated so far - ATL - seems really lame, so I am looking into others. It's hard to know which one to join!



I'm not sure if it's still the case but until recently it was free to join NUT for a year.  I've been NASUWT for years, but now I'm in both as a result.


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## nagapie (Oct 15, 2013)

OU is not a teacher so he can't join a teacher's union. I hesitate to say this as a union member since becoming a working person but I think Orang Utan should go in. He is about to get a permanent contract and depending on how much of an arse his Head is, and most of them are, his staying home could jeopardise this.


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## 8115 (Oct 15, 2013)

Orang Utan just ask your boss if you're expected to go in.  Say you'd rather not as you sympathise with the striking teachers if you like, but it ccan't hurt to have that conversation.  They'll probably be on strike anyway.  If you're agency you might just have to go in anyway if they are keeping the school open.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 15, 2013)

nagapie said:


> OU is not a teacher so he can't join a teacher's union. I hesitate to say this as a union member since becoming a working person but I think Orang Utan should go in. He is about to get a permanent contract and depending on how much of an arse his Head is, and most of them are, his staying home could jeopardise this.


NUT rep told me to go in.


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## nagapie (Oct 15, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> NUT rep told me to go in.



There you go, you're not protected as your union isn't on strike and doubly so as an agency worker with as still as of yet insecure employment future.


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## Thora (Oct 15, 2013)

Our union has said go in but don't do anything that isn't part of your normal job (eg. no cleaning).


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## gaijingirl (Oct 15, 2013)

ah... in that case go in.  Our support staff aren't striking and we wouldn't expect them to.


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## Bob_the_lost (Oct 15, 2013)

i can't believe no-one else has said it but: Teach PE?


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## spanglechick (May 12, 2014)

Ok - this seemed like the best thread to update.  Most of you probably know already, but I've got another job!  In teaching, but out of the academy system.  Middle mgt role but not head of dept, which i am currently: the new post is a cross faculty role.  It's a mixed school, local, and really prioritises the visual and performing arts.

So - not leaving teaching after all... at least for now.  

It was the first job i'd applied for in seven years, so i'm bloody proud of myself.  I had a plan B, though - and in a few years if this doesn't pan out then that's what i'll do.  Plan B is to save up, do a two year masters (while working three days per week) in Actor Training.  Which still seems like a good idea if the government keeps trying to kill us off.  We shall see.


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## 8ball (May 12, 2014)




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## purenarcotic (May 12, 2014)

Congrats on the new job, spangles, that's fantastic.  xx


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## Miss-Shelf (May 12, 2014)

so pleased to hear this.  They are lucky to have you .
well done 
operation re-boot spangles starts here


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## Red Cat (May 12, 2014)

Fucking brilliant! I'm so pleased for you and the young people of South London 

And what a relief; hearing about your work almost made me ill, I don't know how you survived. And breathe.....


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## equationgirl (May 12, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> Ok - this seemed like the best thread to update.  Most of you probably know already, but I've got another job!  In teaching, but out of the academy system.  Middle mgt role but not head of dept, which i am currently: the new post is a cross faculty role.  It's a mixed school, local, and really prioritises the visual and performing arts.
> 
> So - not leaving teaching after all... at least for now.
> 
> It was the first job i'd applied for in seven years, so i'm bloody proud of myself.  I had a plan B, though - and in a few years if this doesn't pan out then that's what i'll do.  Plan B is to save up, do a two year masters (while working three days per week) in Actor Training.  Which still seems like a good idea if the government keeps trying to kill us off.  We shall see.


Well done you 

And really well done for surviving it, you've had a horrendous time of it


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## treefrog (May 13, 2014)

So excited for you!


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## existentialist (May 13, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> Ok - this seemed like the best thread to update.  Most of you probably know already, but I've got another job!  In teaching, but out of the academy system.  Middle mgt role but not head of dept, which i am currently: the new post is a cross faculty role.  It's a mixed school, local, and really prioritises the visual and performing arts.
> 
> So - not leaving teaching after all... at least for now.
> 
> It was the first job i'd applied for in seven years, so i'm bloody proud of myself.  I had a plan B, though - and in a few years if this doesn't pan out then that's what i'll do.  Plan B is to save up, do a two year masters (while working three days per week) in Actor Training.  Which still seems like a good idea if the government keeps trying to kill us off.  We shall see.


I'm delighted to hear this. At a time when it feels like young people and those who care enough to make a career out of giving them opportunities are last in the queue for everything, it's really encouraging to hear that there are still options for dedicated people. I hope you don't need your Plan B, though that sounds exciting, too!


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## StoneRoad (May 13, 2014)

well done, Spangles ! 
I Hope that the new job is everything that you want and need.


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## ViolentPanda (May 13, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> Ok - this seemed like the best thread to update.  Most of you probably know already, but I've got another job!  In teaching, but out of the academy system.  Middle mgt role but not head of dept, which i am currently: the new post is a cross faculty role.  It's a mixed school, local, and really prioritises the visual and performing arts.
> 
> So - not leaving teaching after all... at least for now.
> 
> It was the first job i'd applied for in seven years, so i'm bloody proud of myself.  I had a plan B, though - and in a few years if this doesn't pan out then that's what i'll do.  Plan B is to save up, do a two year masters (while working three days per week) in Actor Training.  Which still seems like a good idea if the government keeps trying to kill us off.  We shall see.



Massive congratulations!


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## oryx (May 13, 2014)

Well done, especially with it being the first application in 7 years! And good luck with the new role.


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## Sapphireblue (May 14, 2014)

sooo pleased for you that you have finally managed to get out of that hellhole without having to give up teaching. fingers crossed for the new place.


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