# STOP THE WAR COALITION MEETING OXFORD.  19/04/2022



## Nigel (Mar 29, 2022)

There Will Be A Stop The War Coalition Meeting Tuesday 19th April, Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford At 7pm!








						Oxford StWC Meeting: No to War in Ukraine!
					






					www.stopwar.org.uk


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 29, 2022)

About as useful as a chocolate teapot.


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## kebabking (Mar 29, 2022)

Are they inviting many Ukrainians to speak, or will it just be the usual mix of Assad apologists, anti-Semitic cranks and RT propagandists?


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## frogwoman (Mar 29, 2022)

Think I'll pass mate sorry


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## LDC (Mar 29, 2022)

Nigel said:


> There Will Be A Stop The War Coalition Meeting Tuesday 19th April, Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford At 7pm!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I see Galloway is still a Patron. You can fuck off having any credibility while he is part of StW you bunch of fascist, conspiracy theory, and right wing appeasing freaks.


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 29, 2022)

The Ukrainians should stop throwing themselves on the Russians missiles I’m sure.


Will nobody think of Galloways RT cheques that need to clear


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## Shechemite (Mar 29, 2022)

Nigel, incidentally was kicked out of momentum after I complained about his social media behaviour viz-a-viz the you know who’s. Are you still in oxford anti-fascist network Nige?


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## steeplejack (Mar 29, 2022)

_"Now, more than ever...."_


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## Shechemite (Mar 29, 2022)

It’s really happening comrades


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## gosub (Mar 29, 2022)

Not sure (1) how a public meeting in Oxford will stop a war between Russia and Ukraine (2) why they want the war to carry on for another 3 weeks


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## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2022)

Nigel said:


> There Will Be A Stop The War Coalition Meeting Tuesday 19th April, Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford At 7pm!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's on telly at that time?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2022)

kebabking said:


> Are they inviting many Ukrainians to speak, or will it just be the usual mix of Assad apologists, anti-Semitic cranks and RT propagandists?


Why mess with a winning combination?


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## hitmouse (Mar 29, 2022)

Fwiw, that Simon Pirani blog that LynnDoyleCooper linked to elsewhere included a link to this exchange, where the chair of Brent Stop the War tries and fails to convince national StW to adopt
“• Russian troops out of Ukraine!
• No to war!
• Refugees welcome here!”
as a set of slogans:








						For the broadest possible anti-war movement!
					

For the broadest possible anti-war movement! Mike Phipps publishes an exchange of letters with the Stop the War Coalition Having attended the Stop the War Coalition demonstration on the war in Ukra…




					labourhub.org.uk


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## emanymton (Mar 29, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Fwiw, that Simon Pirani blog that LynnDoyleCooper linked to elsewhere included a link to this exchange, where the chair of Brent Stop the War tries and fails to convince national StW to adopt
> “• Russian troops out of Ukraine!
> • No to war!
> • Refugees welcome here!”
> ...



"However, these demands do not address central features of the crisis.  In particular, you are silent on the issue of NATO expansion."

For fucking fucks sake they are fucking obsessed. 

The irony is that what will lead to the biggest increase in NATO militarization and possible expansion is a Russian victory. And the result that will see the smallest increase in NATO militarization is a Russian defeat, even if achieved with NATO provided weapons. 

They just can't grasp that there are multiple imperialisms reacting to each other.


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## JimW (Mar 29, 2022)

Had a quick scan of the articles on their main site and there was one decent one that didn't put all the focus on NATO but on closer inspection it was a repost of that Paul What's-his-face who's a Prof of Peace Studies and published on OpenDemocracy.


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## Nigel (Mar 29, 2022)

kebabking said:


> Are they inviting many Ukrainians to speak, or will it just be the usual mix of Assad apologists, anti-Semitic cranks and RT propagandists?


I invited AWL comrades to speak but they haven't got back to me!
Some ACR said they would turn up!
Could contact Ukrainian Society at Brookes!
However most Ukrainians I've met on building sites are quite bigoted and racist, which has a lot to do with their culture!
There was a guy mixed Russian Ukrainian ethnic background I used to get along with but haven't seen him for a while!

ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR UKRAINIAN GROUPS TO INVITE?


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## LDC (Mar 29, 2022)

Nigel said:


> I invited AWL comrades to speak but they haven't got back to me!
> Some ACR said they would turn up!
> Could contact Ukrainian Society at Brookes!
> However most Ukrainians I've met on building sites are quite bigoted and racist, which has a lot to do with their culture!
> ...



You've outdone yourself.


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## kebabking (Mar 29, 2022)




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## Shechemite (Mar 29, 2022)

I wonder what the spooks on here make of this (plus whoever is tasked with coordinating Nigel’s vulnerability support hub)


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## hitmouse (Mar 29, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> YOU'VE OUTDONE YOURSELF!


ftfy


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 29, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> I wonder what the spooks on here make of this (plus whoever is tasked with coordinating Nigel’s vulnerability support hub)



If there are any left they are probably biding their time to retirement.


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## Nigel (Mar 30, 2022)

Watch: War in Ukraine Teach-In – Causes and Consequences
					

Watch back our teach-in with leading activists and experts, including anti-war speakers from both Ukraine and...




					www.stopwar.org.uk


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 30, 2022)

I would rather watch paint dry TBH.


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## kebabking (Mar 30, 2022)

Should this thread be merged with the Pond Life thread....?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I would rather watch paint dry TBH.


Surprised you should say that, there's a rally in central Oxford the same evening as the stwc do for the purposes of watching acrylic paint dry


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## The39thStep (Mar 30, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> Nigel, incidentally was kicked out of momentum after I complained about his social media behaviour viz-a-viz the you know who’s. Are you still in oxford anti-fascist network Nige?


Every time the hunter gets captured by the game


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## Nigel (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris Nineham will be the main speaker at Stop The War Coalition Meeting: No To War In The Ukraine!
19th April 2022
7-9pm
Oxford Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford​


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 30, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Chris Nineham will be the main speaker at Stop The War Coalition Meeting: No To War In The Ukraine!​19th April 2022​7-9pm​Oxford Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford​



No one here cares, you are wasting your time.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Chris Nineham will be the main speaker at Stop The War Coalition Meeting: No To War In The Ukraine!​19th April 2022​7-9pm​Oxford Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford​


You're giving loads of reasons to stop in and none to attend these meetings


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## Nigel (Mar 30, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> You're giving loads of reasons to stop in and none to attend these meetings


What incentive would you want?
I can get 15% off drinks in the pub opposite!


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## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2022)

Nigel said:


> What incentive would you want?
> I can get 15% off drinks in the pub opposite!


Sadly I no longer drink. Although spending the evening in the pub opposite the meeting has attractions.

I don't imagine there are many people who'd willingly spend an evening listening to Chris Nineham, even in Oxford


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## emanymton (Mar 30, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Sadly I no longer drink. Although spending the evening in the pub opposite the meeting has attractions.
> 
> I don't imagine there are many people who'd willingly spend an evening listening to Chris Nineham, even in Oxford


Could be worse, could be German.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2022)

emanymton said:


> Could be worse, could be German.


You'd still be safe enough in the pub over the way


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 30, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> No one here cares, you are wasting your time.



I do. I find the whole thing fascinating.


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## hitmouse (Mar 30, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Every time the hunter gets captured by the game



Ah, the Momentumettes, not one of Motown's more successful acts.


emanymton said:


> Could be worse, could be German.


Leider trinke ich nicht mehr. Obwohl der Abend in der Kneipe gegenüber dem Treffen reizvoll ist. 

Ich kann mir nicht vorstellen, dass es viele Leute gibt, die freiwillig einen Abend damit verbringen würden, Chris Nineham zuzuhören, nicht einmal in Oxford.


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## farmerbarleymow (Mar 31, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Chris Nineham will be the main speaker at Stop The War Coalition Meeting: No To War In The Ukraine!​19th April 2022​7-9pm​Oxford Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford​


Can you post the (verified) attendance figures when the event happens?  Would be interesting to know how many people turn up.


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## Nigel (Mar 31, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Can you post the (verified) attendance figures when the event happens?  Would be interesting to know how many people turn up.


Sure


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## kebabking (Mar 31, 2022)

Can you let us know how many of them you'd let within 500 yards of a school?


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## JimW (Mar 31, 2022)

Nigel said:


> What incentive would you want?
> I can get 15% off drinks in the pub opposite!


You should report them if they're serving short pints. Worse than Putin.


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## steeplejack (Mar 31, 2022)

wtf does _Chris Nineham_ know about Ukraine, really? Can he find it on a map?

It's like turning up to listen to Dapper Laughs discussing nuclear fission.

Attendance: Steeple Sinderby reserves at home on a very snowy Tuesday two days before Christmas, with no orange ball available, but with angry placards as compensation.


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## moochedit (Mar 31, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> No one here cares, you are wasting your time.


R2d2 might be interested


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## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> wtf does _Chris Nineham_ know about Ukraine, really? Can he find it on a map?
> 
> It's like turning up to listen to Dapper Laughs discussing nuclear fission.
> 
> Attendance: Steeple Sinderby reserves at home on a very snowy Tuesday two days before Christmas, with no orange ball available, but with angry placards as compensation.


I wonder if he's learnt anything since 2014 Ukraine: four points in response to Chris Nineham


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## steeplejack (Mar 31, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I wonder if he's learnt anything since 2014 Ukraine: four points in response to Chris Nineham





I doubt it, though. He's the sort of political batsman who insists on embarrassing himself further, by staying at the crease despite having been comprehensively bowled.


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## JimW (Mar 31, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> wtf does _Chris Nineham_ know about Ukraine, really? Can he find it on a map?
> 
> It's like turning up to listen to Dapper Laughs discussing nuclear fission.
> 
> Attendance: Steeple Sinderby reserves at home on a very snowy Tuesday two days before Christmas, with no orange ball available, but with angry placards as compensation.


The beauty of the one size fits all theory. If they changed the talk to Vanuatu at two hours' notice, so long as his phone had Google for a couple of names he'd still be good to go.


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## Wilf (Mar 31, 2022)

Nigel said:


> There Will Be A Stop The War Coalition Meeting Tuesday 19th April, Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford At 7pm!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yuk.


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## Supine (Mar 31, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Could contact Ukrainian Society at Brookes!
> However most Ukrainians I've met on building sites are quite bigoted and racist, which has a lot to do with their culture!



Priceless


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## Wilf (Mar 31, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Watch: War in Ukraine Teach-In – Causes and Consequences
> 
> 
> Watch back our teach-in with leading activists and experts, including anti-war speakers from both Ukraine and...
> ...


I managed the first 10 minutes and found out that Chris Nineham accepts that the war was '_precipitated _by Russian invasion'.  

_Precipitated _eh?


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## Wilf (Mar 31, 2022)

Wonder what he thinks about the Chris Rock v Wil Smith situation?


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## steeplejack (Apr 1, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Wonder what he thinks about the Chris Rock v Wil Smith situation?



I'd imagine 'false consciousness' would feature heavily in the "analysis"


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## moochedit (Apr 1, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Wonder what he thinks about the Chris Rock v Wil Smith situation?


Nato's fault obviously


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## Shechemite (Apr 1, 2022)

Is Larry sanders (Green councillor in Oxfordshire, comes across as a good egg) involved with oxford STWC? He does a lot of good work around health and social care, but does seem to have a soft spot for trot loons (and adjacent) types


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## BigMoaner (Apr 1, 2022)

Nigel said:


> There Will Be A Stop The War Coalition Meeting Tuesday 19th April, Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford At 7pm!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Putin will be furious at the news.


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## BigMoaner (Apr 1, 2022)

Nigels are what Millwall fans call Palace fans. They call us knuckledraggers. Of no relevance sorry carry on


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## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2022)

BigMoaner said:


> Putin will be furious at the news.


Chris nineham should work for the fsb. An hour listening to him and most people will confess to anything to avoid a second hour


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## Nigel (Apr 2, 2022)

BigMoaner said:


> Nigels are what Millwall fans call Palace fans. They call us knuckledraggers. Of no relevance sorry carry on


Interesting that avid Millwall fan Tim Scargill, ex National Organiser of Class War; Now a.k.a Tim V Man is 100% behind Ukrainian Nationalists & doing much with Millwall Fans & his own fan base as vocalist for SHAM 69 to support the Zelensky puppet government in Ukraine Region!


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## kebabking (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Interesting that avid Millwall fan Tim Scargill, ex National Organiser of Class War; Now a.k.a Tim V Man is 100% behind Ukrainian Nationalists & doing much with Millwall Fans & his own fan base as vocalist for SHAM 69 to support the Zelensky puppet government in Ukraine Region!


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Zelensky puppet government in Ukraine Region!



You fucking what? 

It's not a puppet government, and Ukraine in a country, not a region, you Putin puppet.


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## xenon (Apr 2, 2022)

"Zelensky puppet government in Ukraine Region!"

Do you agree with that Nigel? or is it a quote from someone else that you disavowal?


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## Wilf (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Interesting that avid Millwall fan Tim Scargill, ex National Organiser of Class War; Now a.k.a Tim V Man is 100% behind Ukrainian Nationalists & doing much with Millwall Fans & his own fan base as vocalist for SHAM 69 to support *the Zelensky puppet government in Ukraine Region*!


I'm _assuming_ this is some kind of provocation, aka trolling. If so, a brutal war where thousands are being murdered isn't really the moment to play that game.  Of course the other option is that you believe this... Happy to hear your clarification.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Interesting that avid Millwall fan Tim Scargill, ex National Organiser of Class War; Now a.k.a Tim V Man is 100% behind Ukrainian Nationalists & doing much with Millwall Fans & his own fan base as vocalist for SHAM 69 to support the Zelensky puppet government in Ukraine Region!


It's not that interesting. Tim left the cwf 30 years ago. The most interesting thing about your post is the zpg and ur thing, which is disappointing to see


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## A380 (Apr 2, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> I wonder what the spooks on here make of this (plus whoever is tasked with coordinating Nigel’s vulnerability support hub)


I imagine they read the first post and went back to looking at the cat picture thread, like any other reasonable person...


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## A380 (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> ...However most Ukrainians I've met on building sites are quite bigoted and racist, which has a lot to do with their culture!...


Gosh, I wish i was as progressive and right on as you. I can't wait to live in the world your revolution will create...


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## hitmouse (Apr 2, 2022)

I don't know about anyone else, but I am quite liking the idea of Tim S leading an international brigade of Millwall, Sham 69 fans and aging ex-CW faces over to Ukraine.


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## Dystopiary (Apr 2, 2022)

So Stop the War don't support the ordinary people in Ukraine, under fire in a war, right now? 

If that's the case - given that this meeting is called _Stop the War: No to War In Ukraine_ - they need to be clear, because there are well-meaning people out there who'll want to get on board with an end to the war in/on Ukraine, to support civilians there, and they deserve not to be misled by people who are slagging off Ukrainians, don't recognise their right to exist as non-Russians, and don't recognise that they are under fire from Putin and his cronies.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> So Stop the War don't support the ordinary people in Ukraine, under fire in a war, right now?
> 
> If that's the case - given that this meeting is called _Stop the War: No to War In Ukraine_ - they need to be clear, because there are well-meaning people out there who'll want to get on board with an end to the war in/on Ukraine, to support civilians there, and they deserve not to be misled by people who are slagging off Ukrainians, don't recognise their right to exist as non-Russians, and don't recognise that they are under fire from Putin and his cronies.


They'll be in for a surprise


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## LDC (Apr 2, 2022)

This last month has definitely shown/reminded us that there really are some absolutely poisonous people and organisations that claim to be 'of the left'. They should not be forgotten or let to get away with it.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> This last month has definitely shown/reminded us that there really are some absolutely poisonous people and organisations that claim to be off the left. They should not be forgotten or let to get away with it.


Once more we can tell them to fuck off to Moscow


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## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2022)

Stop the war in Ukraine  - Let Putin win!


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## Nigel (Apr 2, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not that interesting. Tim left the cwf 30 years ago. The most interesting thing about your post is the zpg and ur thing, which is disappointing to see


It was a bit later than that; Class War, you're forgetting CWO & NCA !
Although ther were rumours of him retracting his politics and during and after his disinterest in CW politics he did regress from class conscious politics to social chauvanist/'patriotic' politics and world outlook; Tim's politics and world views have been consistant class conscious/class struggle understanding and support for workers struggle, which is a lot more than can be said of many others of similar ilk!

I do hope that his aberrative and misguided support for 'Ukrainian Nationlists' and illusion of puppet government in Ukraine Region(s); orchaestrated and financed by neo liberal EU to be a proxy for western interests and militarily strategic for NATO, isn't a re-version to old 'Strasserite' affinity and politics of 1970's/80's N F but a capitulation to some phony belief from pseudo progressive perspective in western bourgeois democracy and liberal freedom!


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## hitmouse (Apr 2, 2022)

What does this support of Ukrainian nationalists look like? Is it that he put a Ukrainian flag ribbon thing on his profile picture? Also, are you digging up the old CW/NF smear there?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> It was a bit later than that; Class War, you're forgetting CWO & NCA !
> Although ther were rumours of him retracting his politics and during and after his disinterest in CW politics he did regress from class conscious politics to social chauvanist/'patriotic' politics and world outlook; Tim's politics and world views have been consistant class conscious/class struggle understanding and support for workers struggle, which is a lot more than can be said of many others of similar ilk!
> 
> I do hope that his aberrative and misguided support for 'Ukrainian Nationlists' and illusion of puppet government in Ukraine; orchaestrated and financed by neo liberal EU to be a proxy for western interests and militarily strategic for NATO, isn't a re-version to old 'Strasserite' affinity and politics of 1970's/80's N F but a capitulation to some phony belief from pseudo progressive perspective in western bourgeois democracy and liberal freedom!


He left the class war federation, cwf, 30 years ago, when the short-lived class war organisation was formed.


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## hitmouse (Apr 2, 2022)

And then went on to the National Crime Agency?


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## JimW (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> I do hope that his aberrative and misguided support for 'Ukrainian Nationlists' and illusion of puppet government in Ukraine Region(s); orchaestrated and financed by neo liberal EU to be a proxy for western interests and militarily strategic for NATO, isn't a re-version to old 'Strasserite' affinity and politics of 1970's/80's N F but a capitulation to some phony belief from pseudo progressive perspective in western bourgeois democracy and liberal freedom!


Parklife!


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## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> I do hope that his aberrative and misguided support for 'Ukrainian Nationlists' and illusion of puppet government in Ukraine; orchaestrated and financed by neo liberal EU to be a proxy for western interests and militarily strategic for NATO, isn't a re-version to old 'Strasserite' affinity and politics of 1970's/80's N F but a capitulation to some phony belief from pseudo progressive perspective in western bourgeois democracy and liberal freedom!


Mate if you were writing this from Putins Russia you know you'd have to use a VPN right? And pretty much everyone in that video would have been arrested. I know you're being a troll but it's not particularly funny


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## Nigel (Apr 2, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> And then went on to the National Crime Agency?


National Communities Alliance


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## Storm Fox (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> It was a bit later than that; Class War, you're forgetting CWO & NCA !
> Although ther were rumours of him retracting his politics and during and after his disinterest in CW politics he did regress from class conscious politics to social chauvanist/'patriotic' politics and world outlook; Tim's politics and world views have been consistant class conscious/class struggle understanding and support for workers struggle, which is a lot more than can be said of many others of similar ilk!
> 
> I do hope that his aberrative and misguided support for 'Ukrainian Nationlists' and illusion of puppet government in Ukraine Region(s); orchaestrated and financed by neo liberal EU to be a proxy for western interests and militarily strategic for NATO, isn't a re-version to old 'Strasserite' affinity and politics of 1970's/80's N F but a capitulation to some phony belief from pseudo progressive perspective in western bourgeois democracy and liberal freedom!


So would you be happy for Russia to invade the UK and live under Putin's rule? I mean our government is neo liberal and financed by western interests. 
Would you refuse to condemn Russia as they blow up UK infrastructure and making snide comments against the people resisting the Russians and calling them Nazis and fascists just because the BNP exists in the country. 
If not, don't be so condescending to other sovereign nations whose citizens are being maimed, killed and kidnapped.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> So would you be happy for Russia to invade the UK and live under Putin's rule? I mean our government is neo liberal and financed by western interests.
> Would you refuse to condemn Russia as they blow up UK infrastructure and making snide comments against the people resisting the Russians and calling them Nazis and fascists just because the BNP exists in the country.
> If not, don't be so condescending to other sovereign nations whose citizens are being maimed, killed and kidnapped.


Don't think there's any chance of Russia invading anyone else for a while


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## kebabking (Apr 2, 2022)

The one good thing you could say about Joe Stalin is that he'd have had all these freaks _purged_...


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## Nigel (Apr 2, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> Mate if you were writing this from Putins Russia you know you'd have to use a VPN right? And pretty much everyone in that video would have been arrested. I know you're being a troll but it's not particularly funny


I'm not trolling!
We're not in Russia and there's plenty of people streaming and using VPN who haven't been questioned or arrested by security forces and/or police: Do you think they should be?
I don't back or suppport Putin either; military interverntion was forced on in; he may have pulled the trigger, however its NATO & on economic and structural level e,g, from South Stream debacle, Turkstream to NORD 2 disbanded as far as gas *to a lesser degree oil) and fanatical neo liberal competitive free market totalitarian policy of austerity etc. that handed him the gun cocked it!


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## Nigel (Apr 2, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> So would you be happy for Russia to invade the UK and live under Putin's rule? I mean our government is neo liberal and financed by western interests.
> Would you refuse to condemn Russia as they blow up UK infrastructure and making snide comments against the people resisting the Russians and calling them Nazis and fascists just because the BNP exists in the country.
> If not, don't be so condescending to other sovereign nations whose citizens are being maimed, killed and kidnapped.


The vangurd of the people on the streets and the spearhead of the militias and also in 'Ukrainian' armey are Nazis and Fascists!
The Ukrainian government/regime may think they can use these groups for their own interests, however as history has proven, giving credibility to Nazis and Fascists gives them greater ability a few moves on in the game for usurpation!


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## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2022)

Igor Girkin definitely not a fash then.


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## The39thStep (Apr 2, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Don't think there's any chance of Russia invading anyone else for a while


Last time I looked the BNP didn’t have bespoke armed battalion in our military either .


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 2, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> This last month has definitely shown/reminded us that there really are some absolutely poisonous people and organisations that claim to be 'of the left'. They should not be forgotten or let to get away with it.



And, sadly a few are long-term members on here, and they should also ever be forgotten.


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## LDC (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> The vangurd of the people on the streets and the spearhead of the militias and also in 'Ukrainian' armey are Nazis and Fascists!
> The Ukrainian government/regime may think they can use these groups for their own interests, however as history has proven, giving credibility to Nazis and Fascists gives them greater ability a few moves on in the game for usurpation!



On ignore you thick nasty politically dodgy prick.


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## LDC (Apr 2, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Last time I looked the BNP didn’t have bespoke armed battalion in our military either .



I'd have thought better of you to keep making such a big deal of this tbh.


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## Storm Fox (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> The vangurd of the people on the streets and the spearhead of the militias and also in 'Ukrainian' armey are Nazis and Fascists!
> The Ukrainian government/regime may think they can use these groups for their own interests, however as history has proven, giving credibility to Nazis and Fascists gives them greater ability a few moves on in the game for usurpation!


That's not answering the question I asked. 
We have a growing hard-right / fascists movement so would you be happy for Russia to invade?


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## kebabking (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> The vangurd of the people on the streets and the spearhead of the militias and also in 'Ukrainian' armey are Nazis and Fascists!
> The Ukrainian government/regime may think they can use these groups for their own interests, however as history has proven, giving credibility to Nazis and Fascists gives them greater ability a few moves on in the game for usurpation!



Did you not get enough oxygen at birth?


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## bimble (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel is the full stop key on your keyboard broken ?


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel you are one sick motherfucker, you are an absolute cunt, and a fucking disgrace to urban. 

Go fuck yourself.


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## Brainaddict (Apr 2, 2022)

bimble said:


> Nigel is the full stop key on your keyboard broken ?


I think a bit more than that is broken. 

The sad thing about this thread is that it reminds me that when the right media went hunting nutjobs with weirdo views in the Corbynite movement they had a field day. Sigh.


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## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2022)

totally normal bunch of lads


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## The39thStep (Apr 2, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'd have thought better of you to keep making such a big deal of this tbh.


Not convinced that me replying to two posts that make unhelpful analogies about armed and unarmed fascists is ‘such a big deal’ tbh .


----------



## LDC (Apr 2, 2022)

kebabking said:


> Did you not get enough oxygen at birth?



Too much imo.


----------



## LDC (Apr 2, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Not convinced that me replying to two posts that make unhelpful analogies about armed and unarmed fascists is ‘such a big deal’ tbh .



Fair enough, but feels like I've seen you make more comments like that on other threads, but maybe been mistaken.


----------



## bimble (Apr 2, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Too much imo.


Nah. Pick on someone with access to a full keyboard (but seriously, nigel is obviously not fine).


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 2, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Fair enough, but feels like I've seen you make more comments like that on other threads, but maybe been mistaken.


I think there’s a world of difference in accepting the fact that there are armed fascists in Ukraine and somehow suggesting that Ukraine deserve to be invaded because the presence of armed fascists .


----------



## Nigel (Apr 2, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> That's not answering the question I asked.
> We have a growing hard-right / fascists movement so would you be happy for Russia to invade?


That's a completely nonsensical question.
However if there was such as case (probably in an alternate universe) I'd be choose to support independent militias and play bourgeios nationalists and the rightist/nationalist proxy allies off and out-manipilate them; similar to tactics used by Tito with Mihailovic's Chetniks, Mao to Chang Kai-Schek's Kuomantang, Communist French Resistance, Sabate and other Spanish Anrchists Anti Fascists after Spanish Civil War, Dev Sol and other Communists/Anti Fascists in Turkey, KKE against Axis Powers, British Army & Dictatorship in Greece etc. etc.!

However this is a completely different sitiation and the people living in Ukraine Region are caught between the machanisations of EU, America & Backers and NATO and tha Machiavelian Sceming and games of Putin et al.


Anyone with a serious progressive interests in the devastating situation in Ukraine Region(s) should be calling for imediate cease fire, negotiations and peace!
Backing the west sending and training the $2 Billion expediture, much of which will fall into far right militias and army squads regiments involved in ethnic cleansing of 'Non Ukrainians' backing western neo imperialist proxy government and pushing the hand of reactionary Putin and allies to do the same is just going to cost the needless deaths of thousands of lives, destruction and terrible refugee crisis, scapegaoting on all sides, significantly against Roma, Ethnic Russians, Greek migrants etc. etc.


----------



## xenon (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> I'm not trolling!
> We're not in Russia and there's plenty of people streaming and using VPN who haven't been questioned or arrested by security forces and/or police: Do you think they should be?
> I don't back or suppport Putin either; military interverntion was forced on in; he may have pulled the trigger, however its NATO & on economic and structural level e,g, from South Stream debacle, Turkstream to NORD 2 disbanded as far as gas *to a lesser degree oil) and fanatical neo liberal competitive free market totalitarian policy of austerity etc. that handed him the gun cocked it!



Military intervention, AKA an armed invasion. Nato/ EU  made him do it. Total bollocks.

It's possible you know to conceed Nato / EU / the west made mistakes in dealing with and understanding Russia post Soviet eera without excusing Putin. And certainly without denying Ukraine's right to self determination or legitimacy. A bit too hard for the SWTC lot though. Fucking clowns.


----------



## Storm Fox (Apr 2, 2022)

Peace can be achieved by Russia fucking off back over the border, and as for progressive, what is progressive about Russia?
Anti LGBTQ legislation http://www.globalequality.org/compo...e-news/186-the-facts-on-lgbt-rights-in-russia
Huge wage inequality: The Rise of Income Inequality in Russia  - The Borgen Project
And general lack of freedom. Freedom Index by Country 2022


----------



## Nigel (Apr 2, 2022)

xenon said:


> Military intervention, AKA an armed invasion. Nato/ EU  made him do it. Total bollocks.
> 
> It's possible you know to conceed Nato / EU / the west made mistakes in dealing with and understanding Russia post Soviet eera without excusing Putin. And certainly without denying Ukraine's right to self determination or legitimacy. A bit too hard for the SWTC lot though. Fucking clowns.


It maybe semantics to you and others here, however neither as far as I am aware Stop The War Coalition and definitely not myself are 'excusing' Putin!
Pointing out the raison d'etre of real politik, compettitve strategic socio economic mechanisations and who is the main force behind the situation in Ukraine Region and similar horrific conflicts around the world Western Imperialism still holding on to the Geo Politics of 'New World Order' after travesties in Iraq, Syria, Yeman, Somalia, Libya, I$rael/Palestine etc etc. does not let V. Putin off the hook; he still chose to play this 'Great Game' along the lines of their rules!
Neither Western Imperialism, it's puppet and proxy governments, Putin or any other of the power blocs have any serious answers to these and other problems!
Building a peace movement, Labour/Trade Union movement and similar support is the only genuine way of sucessful resistance!
Genuinely understanding and following an anti imperialist programme to understanding and bringing about genuine change!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2022)

You know that Putin was involved in Syria right?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel , this 'Ukraine region' you mention, what is it a _region_ of?


----------



## Nigel (Apr 2, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Nigel , this 'Ukraine region' you mention, what is it a _region_ of?


The Pale (joke)
Eastern Europe, Eurasia, with annexes such as Crimea & Donbass


----------



## Storm Fox (Apr 2, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Nigel , this 'Ukraine region' you mention, what is it a _region_ of?


I'm guessing the same greater area that also contains the Moldovan, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian regions, of the definitely not imperialistic Putin

ETA As just confirmed by Nigel.

I'm stepping away from this thread for tonight as I have had a few beers and I would rather not have a ban hammer and a hangover tomorrow.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Eastern Europe, Eurasia, with annexes such as Crimea & Donbass


Not a _country _then?


----------



## Nigel (Apr 2, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Not a _country _then?


That surely is up the the people who live in these regions to decide; under genuinely open free and democratic rederendum or plebicite!
Isn't this something that Zelenky has agreed to ( under pretence of letting V. Putin off the hook) and the Russians have accepted!?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> This last month has definitely shown/reminded us that there really are some absolutely poisonous people and organisations that claim to be 'of the left'. They should not be forgotten or let to get away with it.


I watched a fair bit of the trot 'teach in' posted on the first page. Not surprisingly, each speaker managed brief formulations along the lines of 'of course our thoughts are with the Ukrainian people, but...' and 'we don't support Putin and do call for a Russian withdrawal, whilst...'.  Those weasel words were predictably followed by a 20 minutes of de facto justification on the grounds of neoliberalism and Nato.  If you frame thousands of people dying in a murderous one side conflict, there's not only something deeply wrong with your politics, there's something amiss with your fucking humanity.  As you say, fucking poisonous.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> That surely is up the the people who live in these regions to decide; under genuinely open free and democratic rederendum or plebicite!
> Isn't this something that Zelenky has agreed to ( under pretence of letting V. Putin off the hook) and the Russians have accepted!?


I hope the residents of Mariupol are on board with your lecture in democratic theory.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> That surely is up the the people who live in these regions to decide; under genuinely open free and democratic rederendum or plebicite!
> Isn't this something that Zelenky has agreed to ( under pretence of letting V. Putin off the hook) and the Russians have accepted!?


Yes, let's ask the people of Mariupol which country they want to belong to. Oh what? You mean there aren't any left alive?


Eta. Wilf beat me to it


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 2, 2022)

Wilf said:


> I watched a fair bit of the trot 'teach in' posted on the first page. Not surprisingly, each speaker managed brief formulations along the lines of 'of course our thoughts are with the Ukrainian people, but...' and 'we don't support Putin and do call for a Russian withdrawal, whilst...'.  Those weasel words were predictably followed by a 20 minutes of de facto justification on the grounds of neoliberalism and Nato.  If you frame thousands of people dying in a murderous one side conflict, there's not only something deeply wrong with your politics, there's something amiss with your fucking humanity.  As you say, fucking poisonous.


I keep on thinking of the Israel comparison. Imagine if, the next time Israel starts one of their murderous special military operations in Gaza or the West Bank, you got up at a Stop the War meeting or similar and said "Of course my thoughts are with the Palestinian people, and I don't support Israel and call for an Israeli withdrawal, but..." and then spent 20 minutes banging on about every bad thing Hamas had ever done. Somehow, I don't think the very same people would give you a very warm reaction.


----------



## rubbershoes (Apr 2, 2022)

It's like a corrupted computer spewing out catchphrases


----------



## A380 (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> The vangurd of the people on the streets and the spearhead of the militias and also in 'Ukrainian' armey are Nazis and Fascists!
> The Ukrainian government/regime may think they can use these groups for their own interests, however as history has proven, giving credibility to Nazis and Fascists gives them greater ability a few moves on in the game for usurpation!


Are you fucking mad? Serious question.


----------



## A380 (Apr 2, 2022)

Nigel said:


> That surely is up the the people who live in these regions to decide; under genuinely open free and democratic rederendum or plebicite!
> Isn't this something that Zelenky has agreed to ( under pretence of letting V. Putin off the hook) and the Russians have accepted!?


So not only are you mad, you're a mad cunt,


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 3, 2022)

Nigel said:


> It maybe semantics to you and others here, however neither as far as I am aware Stop The War Coalition and definitely not myself are 'excusing' Putin!
> Pointing out the raison d'etre of real politik, compettitve strategic socio economic mechanisations and who is the main force behind the situation in Ukraine Region and similar horrific conflicts around the world Western Imperialism still holding on to the Geo Politics of 'New World Order' after travesties in Iraq, Syria, Yeman, Somalia, Libya, I$rael/Palestine etc etc. does not let V. Putin off the hook; he still chose to play this 'Great Game' along the lines of their rules!
> Neither Western Imperialism, it's puppet and proxy governments, Putin or any other of the power blocs have any serious answers to these and other problems!
> Building a peace movement, Labour/Trade Union movement and similar support is the only genuine way of sucessful resistance!
> Genuinely understanding and following an anti imperialist programme to understanding and bringing about genuine change!


Fucking hell. I get you are a golf ball, but there are levels


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 3, 2022)

With idiots like Nigel onboard, it's no wonder that the formally good ship known as the Stop The War Coalition is sinking, and becoming ever more irrelevant.

And, the naïve twats wonder why they are getting so little support. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## likesfish (Apr 3, 2022)

Fatah and Hamas and Hezbollah are terrible people that doesnt remotely condone Israeli recreational airstrikes.
The Only threat Russia was facing was militarily irrelevance which it has successfully achieved.
   For all the Broken citys and corpses in Ukraine Russia is seen as a military Joke.  Putin's idea was equal of the UK planning to militarily occupy Dublin and about as sane.  
Then instead of achieving a bit of shock and awe getting completely bogged down losing Generals because nothing works as advertised the military has been gutted through corruption and it was a horrible idea anyway.
 Russia's military was always seen as a threat now nobody is going to take a Russian threat seriously if you can't put proper tyres on a missile truck who is going to believe your nuclear arsenal is in tip-top condition?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 3, 2022)

likesfish said:


> Fatah and Hamas and Hezbollah are terrible people that doesnt remotely condone Israeli recreational airstrikes.
> The Only threat Russia was facing was militarily irrelevance which it has successfully achieved.
> For all the Broken citys and corpses in Ukraine Russia is seen as a military Joke.  Putin's idea was equal of the UK planning to militarily occupy Dublin and about as sane.
> Then instead of achieving a bit of shock and awe getting completely bogged down losing Generals because nothing works as advertised the military has been gutted through corruption and it was a horrible idea anyway.
> Russia's military was always seen as a threat now nobody is going to take a Russian threat seriously if you can't put proper tyres on a missile truck who is going to believe your nuclear arsenal is in tip-top condition?



Luckily for them it's still not a chance anyone will take. And they have shown they have at least a few hyper sonic missiles.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 3, 2022)

A few hypersonic missiles means nothing it's all fur coat no knickers. 

Nobody wants to invade  Russia it's a polluted frozen wasteland. 
Its the global  version  of Tony Martin a dangerous thug but irrelevant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I keep on thinking of the Israel comparison. Imagine if, the next time Israel starts one of their murderous special military operations in Gaza or the West Bank, you got up at a Stop the War meeting or similar and said "Of course my thoughts are with the Palestinian people, and I don't support Israel and call for an Israeli withdrawal, but..." and then spent 20 minutes banging on about every bad thing Hamas had ever done. Somehow, I don't think the very same people would give you a very warm reaction.


I think you'd hear some warm words and things would become rather heated


----------



## Southlondon (Apr 3, 2022)

Wilf said:


> I hope the residents of Mariupol are on board with your lecture in democratic theory.


How about the Russian speaking residents of donbass who’ve endured years of violence at the hands of the locally garrisoned Azov battalion and the Ukrainian government? 
Ordinary people on both sides are suffering and will suffer further every day the war continues. 
I would support Self determination for all regions if that’s what the local people want, be it Catalonia, Ireland, Scotland etc or regions within the vast geographical areas of Ukraine/Russia. 
Ukraine is being destroyed and their people driven from their homes and all efforts should surely be to focussed on encouraging an immediate ceasefire and an end to the war, not supporting NATO (nor Russian government). It’s both the Ukrainians and Russians ( the ordinary people), who will be paying the price of this war for many years - both countries not one or the other. Any longterm solution the Ukrainians and Russians come to will surely involve agreements over borders and sovereignty so better those negotiations start sooner rather than later because every day this war continues more Ukrainians and Russians die. 
And a fascist is a fascist. I hope every member of the AZOV battalion and every ideological fascist on the Russian side get killed. I reserve my compassion for the majority of Ukrainian and Russian people who who have nothing to gain by this war continuing and who are victims of power play by their respective rulers


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2022)

Ukraine is being destroyed and their people driven from their homes

By who? Nato?


----------



## emanymton (Apr 3, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> Ukraine is being destroyed and their people driven from their homes
> 
> By who? Nato?


You know at one point the idea of Russia joining NATO was brought up. 

It all makes sense now, Russia secrerly is part of NATO.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2022)

Southlondon said:


> And a fascist is a fascist. I hope every member of the AZOV battalion and every ideological fascist on the Russian side get killed. I reserve my compassion for the majority of Ukrainian and Russian people who who have nothing to gain by this war continuing and who are victims of power play by their respective rulers


Umm killing every member of the Azov battalion would be a war crime ffs, they were involved in the defence Mariupol, not all of them or even the majority are nazis these days. Nobody is saying that these are nice guys but it has changed quite a lot from its origins if what's said in this video is accurate (I'm not sure about all of it)


There's some real scum fighting on the Ukrainian side but it's not remotely equivalent to the destruction by the Russian army and state, and most of those people are going to be foreign fighters or groups like the Misanthropic Division who are mostly active in Western Ukraine


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 3, 2022)

Southlondon said:


> How about the Russian speaking residents of donbass who’ve endured years of violence at the hands of the locally garrisoned Azov battalion and the Ukrainian government?



Hang on a minute, there was limited support for separatism in the Donbas region before the outbreak of the Russian created war, their excuse that Russian speakers in the Donbas were being persecuted or even subjected to "genocide" were just that, an excuse and totally false. 

There wouldn't have been an going battle in Donbas if it wasn't for the Russians, and you blame the Ukrainian government.


----------



## Southlondon (Apr 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Hang on a minute, there was limited support for separatism in the Donbas region before the outbreak of the Russian created war, their excuse that Russian speakers in the Donbas were being persecuted or even subjected to "genocide" were just that, an excuse and totally false.
> 
> There wouldn't have been an going battle in Donbas if it wasn't for the Russians, and you blame the Ukrainian government.


Do you honestly believe that the AZOV division who have their HQ and interrogation facilities in the area were not persecuting any Russian speakers? Let’s remember that Ukraine was described as a borderline democracy as late as 2019 because of corruption and human rights violations.  If the Ukrainian government decide to fight to take back control of Donbas or crimea then the war will rage for much longer and many more atrocities on both sides will occur. If the likely outcome is to be an acceptable compromise on the Donbas etc then surely sooner rather than later is better for the people on both sides. 
I didn’t mention genocide nor did I blame the Ukrainian government for starting it, and I support the calls for immediate ceasefire, withdrawal of Russian troops and a negotiated agreement on the disputed territories.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 3, 2022)

Southlondon said:


> Do you honestly believe that the AZOV division who have their HQ and interrogation facilities in the area were not persecuting any Russian speakers?



I have no idea, it's possible, do you have a reliable source to back up that they have been persecuting ordinary Russian speakers, rather than just the Russian backed rebels? Remember AZOV was only formed as a response to the war Russia started in Donbas back in 2014, if it wasn't for Russia they wouldn't exist.

If Russia pulls back to the borders before this latest invasion, that could be an acceptable compromise, but you do realise Russia wants all of Donbas, and not just the around 30% it had control over before? Plus a land corridor between Donbas & Crimea, and possibly all the south of Ukraine, cutting them off from the Black Sea.

Which parts do you think Ukraine should give up to the aggressors, and do you really think the Russians wouldn't return for another land grab a few more years down the line?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> *There's some real scum fighting on the Ukrainian side but it's not remotely equivalent to the destruction by the Russian army and state*, and most of those people are going to be foreign fighters or groups like the Misanthropic Division who are mostly active in Western Ukraine


This.  We can tell this as a history of neo-liberalism, we can highlight the impact of Nato expansion.  We can - and should - avoid supporting states in this and any conflict. But ultimately, in terms of the here and now, the reality of mass murder, this is where we are at.  The idiotic Trot/Stalinist/Assadist ragtag, with all their 'whilst we... yeah but...' and the rest can fuck right off.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 3, 2022)

results of Nato expansion
Russia is unable to bomb invade or otherwise intimidate its neighbours. Eastern Europe wanted to join NATO


----------



## chilango (Apr 3, 2022)

Nigel said:


> I$rael



* eyebrow raises very sharply indeed *


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 3, 2022)

chilango said:


> * eyebrow raises very sharply indeed *



I had missed that, that's well dodgy.


----------



## Dystopiary (Apr 3, 2022)

Maybe this thread should just be merged with this one: 

https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/the-pro-putin-left.377778/ 

Pro-Putin Stop the War patron George Galloway is being discussed over there.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 4, 2022)

I'm kind of feeling sick reading threads like this not gonna lie.


----------



## Nigel (Apr 18, 2022)

Nigel said:


> There Will Be A Stop The War Coalition Meeting Tuesday 19th April, Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford At 7pm!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Just A Reminder For Anyone who Is Interested That Stop The War Coalition Meeting, In Oxford, Will Be Tomorrow @ Oxford Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford, *
OX1 1BX; 7-9pm
Chair; Adam Walker Socialist Party/CWI
Speakers: Chris Nineham & Sophie Bolt (Vice Chair C.N.D.)








						Oxford StWC Meeting: No to War in Ukraine!
					






					www.stopwar.org.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2022)

Nigel said:


> *Just A Reminder For Anyone who Is Interested That Stop The War Coalition Meeting, In Oxford, Will Be Tomorrow @ Oxford Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford, *
> OX1 1BX; 7-9pm​Chair; Adam Walker Socialist Party/CWI​Speakers: Chris Nineham & Sophie Bolt (Vice Chair C.N.D.)​
> 
> 
> ...


is this the sophie bolt from the labour party?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 18, 2022)

<checks diary>

Oh, I am washing my hair, that's handy.


----------



## Nigel (Apr 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> is this the sophie bolt from the labour party?


Looks similar?








						Sophie Bolt -
					






					cnduk.org
				












						Women lead the way for peace, our voices are needed now more than ever – Sophie Bolt, CND #IWD2022 - Labour Outlook
					

"Women are needed now more than ever to help build unity with all those calling for peace in the Ukraine, in Russia and across the world." By Sophie Bolt, Vice Chair of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) From Sylvia Pankhurst, to Greenham and beyond, women have a proud history leading...




					labouroutlook.org


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Apr 18, 2022)

Nigel said:


> *Just A Reminder For Anyone who Is Interested That Stop The War Coalition Meeting, In Oxford, Will Be Tomorrow @ Oxford Town Hall, St. Aldates, Oxford, *
> OX1 1BX; 7-9pm​Chair; Adam Walker Socialist Party/CWI​Speakers: Chris Nineham & Sophie Bolt (Vice Chair C.N.D.)​
> 
> 
> ...


Is there going to be a livestream?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Is there going to be a livestream?


only if you're unlucky


----------



## kebabking (Apr 18, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Is there going to be a livestream?



It would be better if there was a fire....


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 18, 2022)

Most importantly, will there be international communist currant buns available?


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Apr 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> only if you're unlucky


Nah, I've got nowt to do tomorrow night so it might be something to pass the time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Nah, I've got nowt to do tomorrow night so it might be something to pass the time.


you could go out and watch the sea gulls


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Apr 18, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> you could go out and watch the sea gulls


That would be preferable, but it might be amusing watching this event.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I have no idea, it's possible, do you have a reliable source to back up that they have been persecuting ordinary Russian speakers, rather than just the Russian backed rebels? Remember AZOV was only formed as a response to the war Russia started in Donbas back in 2014, if it wasn't for Russia they wouldn't exist.



Human Rights Watch report on human right abuses by both sides. This is pre the Putin invasion. Concerns Russian back separatist run areas and Ukrainian run areas. Both sides are accused of torture and detention. 

First paragraph of report gives example of man detained by Ukrainian militias, handed over to Ukrainian security, finally released only to be detained by Pro Russian militias when he went home. 

Neither side in the conflict have been observing human rights. And it appears they aren't interested in any criticism. 









						“You Don’t Exist”
					

This report is based on interviews with 40 victims of abuses, their family members, witnesses, victims’ lawyers, and other sources. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch documented nine cases of arbitrary, prolonged detention of civilians by the Ukrainian authorities – including some...




					www.hrw.org
				




It's not only HRW who have been trying to document this. As article says.


----------



## nogojones (Apr 18, 2022)

chilango said:


> * eyebrow raises very sharply indeed *


so Nigel, what's this I$rael thing then?


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 18, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> That would be preferable, but it might be amusing watching this event.


Can you get any seagulls to turn up? That might liven it up a bit.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Apr 18, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Can you get any seagulls to turn up? That might liven it up a bit.


Maybe some angry possums too.


----------



## Supine (Apr 18, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> That would be preferable, but it might be amusing watching this event.



Can someone add the Benny Hill theme tune pls


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 18, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> Human Rights Watch report on human right abuses by both sides. *This is pre the Putin invasion. *Concerns Russian back separatist run areas and Ukrainian run areas. Both sides are accused of torture and detention.
> 
> First paragraph of report gives example of man detained by Ukrainian militias, handed over to Ukrainian security, finally released only to be detained by Pro Russian militias when he went home.
> 
> ...



Interesting read, thanks for sharing, it doesn't surprise me TBH. 

However, you are wrong to claim these events were 'pre-the Putin invasion', pre-the latest invasion yes, but after the 2014 invasion, and a result of the fall out following that, not that that provides an excuse for torture on the Ukrainian side.

My original point stands, there wasn't any real problem in Donbas until Putin created one.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 18, 2022)

Ah wrong thread


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 18, 2022)

Oxford is a weird place. Oxford BLM posting that hook nosed Jewish bankers mural fits the bill. 

Anyway, will Paula be there?


----------



## Dystopiary (Apr 18, 2022)

I can see how Galloway remains with this person as an officer:


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Interesting read, thanks for sharing, it doesn't surprise me TBH.
> 
> However, you are wrong to claim these events were 'pre-the Putin invasion', pre-the latest invasion yes, but after the 2014 invasion, and a result of the fall out following that, not that that provides an excuse for torture on the Ukrainian side.
> 
> My original point stands, there wasn't any real problem in Donbas until Putin created one.



What I think is mistaken is for some posters to keep going on about the Azov battalion. From 2014 the way the Ukrainian state fought the war was partly using militias. Azov wasn't the only one. And this way of fighting the war in human rights terms was poor. This pre dated Zelenksky. 

This report by Amnesty International on another militia- Aidar- concludes that whilst fighting the Russian separatists and regaining territory for Ukraine it also took to detaining people, beating them up and stealing from them. Complaints to police and authorities by the victims left a lot to be desired. The militia acted with a fair amount of impunity as long as it fought against separatists. 









						Ukraine: Abuses and war crimes by the Aidar Volunteer Battalion in the north Luhansk region - Amnesty International
					

In this briefing Amnesty International is calling on the Ukrainian authorities to bring Aidar and other volunteer battalions under effective lines of command and control, promptly investigate all allegations of abuses, and hold those responsible to account. View Report in EnglishDownload PDF




					www.amnesty.org


----------



## Southlondon (Apr 19, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> What I think is mistaken is for some posters to keep going on about the Azov battalion. From 2014 the way the Ukrainian state fought the war was partly using militias. Azov wasn't the only one. And this way of fighting the war in human rights terms was poor. This pre dated Zelenksky.
> 
> This report by Amnesty International on another militia- Aidar- concludes that whilst fighting the Russian separatists and regaining territory for Ukraine it also took to detaining people, beating them up and stealing from them. Complaints to police and authorities by the victims left a lot to be desired. The militia acted with a fair amount of impunity as long as it fought against separatists.
> 
> ...


You almost seem to be constantly defending the Azov batallion and in denial that they are a white supremacist bunch who are responsible for the most appalling violence against people in the donbass region where they are based.  The fact that russ  it and also use dodgy militias does not takeaway from the fact that these armed fascists are undeniably vile bastards and will continue pose a danger to minorities after the war should they survive which I sincerely hope they don’t. 
They didn’t just take to ‘detaining people’ they tortured and murdered many of  them as well. 
Fascist don’t stop being fascist just because they are fighting a common cause with other fellow citizens and no one should make excuses for them.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2022)

Most Azov members have probably died in the last few weeks tbh


----------



## ouirdeaux (Apr 19, 2022)

I have always opposed war in Ukraine, and have never even fantasised about starting even a minor argument in the region. As far as I'm aware, most people in Oxford have never been involved in that sort of thing either, although of course I have no access to their secret thoughts. I really think the one you should be targeting is Putin, because he has been rather keen for several months on the idea, as we can see from his actions.


----------



## Southlondon (Apr 19, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> Most Azov members have probably died in the last few weeks tbh


Some good news in the midst of all the horrors of the war


----------



## rekil (Apr 19, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> Most Azov members have probably died in the last few weeks tbh



Doesn't matter. Somewhat conveniently, loon analysis boils down to "all ukrainians = azov, therefore carnage, murder, rape, fridge pinching = good/doesn't happen/azov-are-doing-it-to-get-nato-in".


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 19, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> Most Azov members have probably died in the last few weeks tbh


The Azov regiment will no doubt have suffered losses in Mariupol but it's National Militia and 'family' ,according to a recent interview that Sergei Korotkikh (Boatswain) and ex commander in the Azov battalion did,  did are elsewhere  "For example, Andrei Biletsky has 2,300 people in Kyiv alone. The backbones of the defense of Sumy and Chernihiv are Azov. In Kharkov and the Dnieper , two battalions led by Azov. Mariupol is the clearest example"


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 19, 2022)

And how many examples are there, from Ireland to Palestine to Kurdistan and beyond, of the deaths of martyrs being something that successfully drives the next wave of recruitment for a cause? I would hope that the deaths of Azov members would be an exception, but I wouldn't like to bet on it.


----------



## nogojones (Apr 19, 2022)

How do the "yeah, but ...Azov" people feel about the Palestinian struggle?

Whilst it's not quite a direct comparison, do they spend most of their days complaining about how awful Hamas is and forget to mention the Israeli state?


----------



## Nigel (Apr 19, 2022)

nogojones said:


> so Nigel, what's this I$rael thing then?


Symbolises that I don't accept the legitimacy of Apartheid puppet statelet 1$rael & see it as a backed and financed by America and other western imperialists & neo colonialists for their own exploitative interests!








						Israel - Counterfire
					

Counterfire is a socialist organisation committed to building the biggest possible movements against a system that is creating more and more crisis and misery.    Whether or not we get real change depends on wider struggles in society, it depends on mass movements, popular protests and on...




					www.counterfire.org
				











						Is Israel Legitimate?
					

Under normal circumstances, you would never hear such a question asked about any other country’s legitimacy. However, due to Israel’s paranoia and its weighty clout in Washington, a new…




					dancingwithpalestinians.wordpress.com


----------



## IC3D (Apr 19, 2022)

Article about Igor Kolomoisky Oligarch/mafia don and his militia from 2015. These militias formed the backbone of the ukr armed forces and numbered in the 1000's. 









						We just got a glimpse of how oligarch-funded militias could bring chaos to Ukraine
					

Ukraine relies on pro-Kiev militias to fight Putin. But a recent raid on an oil company suggests these private armies could turn against the state to pursue their own interests.




					www.vox.com


----------



## Nigel (Apr 19, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> Oxford is a weird place. Oxford BLM posting that hook nosed Jewish bankers mural fits the bill.
> 
> Anyway, will Paula be there?


That wasn't necessarily Oxford BLM!
More others with weird conspiraloon reactionary ideas who became involved with TTIP!
There was also a lot of anti vaxx bollox that came to the forefront, thankfully more progressive elements in and around Oxford BLM did there best to counter this, however quite 'respected' figureheads involved considered 'professionals' as community activists still legitimise and push these ideas clandestinely!

Tbh, there were/are also pro/proto Zionist councillors and individuals in local Green Party who have made and played along with false allegations against Labour Left and other socialists/eco activists for their own opportunistic ends!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2022)

ДНР объявила о штурме «Азовстали» — последнего очага обороны Мариуполя Украинские власти говорят, что там укрывается тысяча мирных жителей — и на них сбрасывают сверхтяжелые бомбы — Meduza
					

18 апреля президент Украины Владимир Зеленский объявил, что Россия начала «битву за Донбасс», для которой сконцентрировала «очень значительную часть всей российской армии». Тем временем на юге-западе Донецкой области продолжаются бои за Мариуполь («сердце войны», по выражению украинского...




					meduza.io
				




I don’t see anything good about this I'm afraid.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 19, 2022)

Summary for non-Russian readers?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2022)




----------



## nogojones (Apr 19, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Symbolises that I don't accept the legitimacy of Apartheid puppet statelet 1$rael & see it as a backed and financed by America and other western imperialists & neo colonialists for their own exploitative interests!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's all well and good, but can you see how it might be interpreted as pandering to antisemitic tropes?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Summary for non-Russian readers?


Do you have chrome, should be able to get a translation in your browser?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> View attachment 319297


hitmouse


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 19, 2022)

Don't use chrome but just put it through a translator - this is what I got:


> The DPR announced the storming of Azovstal - the last center of defense of Mariupol  Ukrainian authorities say that a thousand civilians are hiding there - and super-heavy bombs are dropped on them​15:12, April 19, 2022
> Source: Meduza
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Nigel (Apr 19, 2022)

nogojones said:


> That's all well and good, but can you see how it might be interpreted as pandering to antisemitic tropes?


Yeah
Ironically had this debate on Urban around a decade ago, mainly, if I can remember with Butcher's & Violent Panda; Zionism being only a minority position; history of Bund, Yiddisher movement etc. having mass following support among Jewish peoples! Also other groups such as many Orthodox Jews who don't accept it's legitimacy
Since then my position has become more accommodating, seeing two state solution, if only in the short term as the only recognisable way to build peace and stability in the region. Also to work with I$raeli trade unionists/labour movement and elements of peace movement to build unifying links and fraternity between Jewish people(s), Palestinians etc. and stability in middle east!

I think you are right and take your point.
I wouldn't necessarily use 1$rael among certain ordinances, however among politicos (or at least claiming to be) on here, think it's valid!


----------



## nogojones (Apr 19, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Yeah
> Ironically had this debate on Urban around a decade ago, mainly, if I can remember with Butcher's & Violent Panda; Zionism being only a minority position; history of Bund, Yiddisher movement etc. having mass following support among Jewish peoples! Also other groups such as many Orthodox Jews who don't accept it's legitimacy
> Since then my position has become more accommodating, seeing two state solution, if only in the short term as the only recognisable way to build peace and stability in the region. Also to work with I$raeli trade unionists/labour movement and elements of peace movement to build unifying links and fraternity between Jewish people(s), Palestinians etc. and stability in middle east!


What does that word salad have to do with the question?



Nigel said:


> I think you are right and take your point.


Ok, so why did you then go ahead and use it twice more in that post? Or does it now default to that in your spellcheck?

It's not a good look Nigel.


----------



## rekil (Apr 19, 2022)

You are a very stupid liability nigel.


----------



## Nigel (Apr 19, 2022)

nogojones said:


> What does that word salad have to do with the question?
> 
> 
> Ok, so why did you then go ahead and use it twice more in that post? Or does it now default to that in your spellcheck?
> ...


That may be your perspective!
I'm sticking by mine!
APARTHEID 1$RAEL IS NOT A LEGITIMATE STATE!


----------



## nogojones (Apr 19, 2022)

Nigel said:


> That may be your perspective!
> I'm sticking by mine!


So you're at ease with the fact that growing numbers of people take you for an antisemitic fool.

I've tried not to go in hard on this thread, because even though I have significant political differences with a lot of the StWC crew, I'd like to think that generally we're on the same side. I'm growing more concerned that I'm just deluded about that though the more I engage with them.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 19, 2022)

Southlondon said:


> The fact that russia also use dodgy militias does not takeaway from the fact that these armed fascists are undeniably vile bastards and will continue pose a danger to minorities after the war should they survive which I sincerely hope they don’t.


i think you misunderstood Gramsci's post - the Aidar Volunteer Battalion that the Amnesty war crimes report is about are also Ukrainian, not Russian. I think Gramsci is saying "Why go on about Azov, they're barely as bad as the other Ukrainian battalions." Thats my understanding of his post.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 19, 2022)

nogojones said:


> How do the "yeah, but ...Azov" people feel about the Palestinian struggle?
> Whilst it's not quite a direct comparison, do they spend most of their days complaining about how awful Hamas is and forget to mention the Israeli state?


For me its not a Yeah But, its about being aware of  fascist currents wherever they may be - all the more dangerous if they can act within the jurisdiction of the state and play an active role in the global fascist creep.

Thats why fascist elements deserve special mention...soldiers committing war crimes, like Aidar Volunteers no doubt have done, should be no surprise to anyone - war is a crime and creates criminals of soldiers, fast. Fascist ideologues have potential impact and influence way beyond the battlefield.  

Personally I'm more scared of Marine Le Pen than Azov, but then I live in a country 20 odd miles away from France.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2022)

ska invita said:


> i think you misunderstood Gramsci's post - the Aidar Volunteer Battalion that the Amnesty war crimes report is about are also Ukrainian, not Russian. I think Gramsci is saying "Why go on about Azov, they're barely as bad as the other Ukrainian battalions." Thats my understanding of his post.



The Aidar Battalion was disbanded, IIRC, back in 2015, so hardly surprising that they don't feature much in discussions now, whereas Azov is still around, although in a somewhat different form.


----------



## Supine (Apr 19, 2022)

Somebody needs to arrest Nigel for crimes against the explanation mark!


----------



## chilango (Apr 19, 2022)

nogojones said:


> So you're at ease with the fact that growing numbers of people take you for an antisemitic fool.
> 
> I've tried not to go in hard on this thread, because even though I have significant political differences with a lot of the StWC crew, I'd like to think that generally we're on the same side. I'm growing more concerned that I'm just deluded about that though the more I engage with them.


People (like Nigel ) who use terms like "1$rael" are not on the same side as me. 

Let's be quite clear...they are my enemies not my allies.


----------



## nogojones (Apr 19, 2022)

ska invita said:


> For me its not a Yeah But, its about being aware of  fascist currents wherever they may be - all the more dangerous if they can act within the jurisdiction of the state and play an active role in the global fascist creep.
> 
> Thats why fascist elements deserve special mention...soldiers committing war crimes, like Aidar Volunteers no doubt have done, should be no surprise to anyone - war is a crime and creates criminals of soldiers, fast. Fascist ideologues have potential impact and influence way beyond the battlefield.
> 
> Personally I'm more scared of Marine Le Pen than Azov, but then I live in a country 20 odd miles away from France.


In a perfect world Azov would never have existed. However it did and still does. To what degree the fascists have control over it and what degree they have in other areas of Ukrainian political life is questionable. For sure they're a problem and they need an eye kept on their activities and their influence lessened as much as possible.

Doing that in the middle of an invasion with an enemy that, on paper vastly outnumbers and outguns you is tricky, especially when the units in question seem to be at the sharp end of it. 

I'd like to see them take a much reduced role, but how that is achieved in the present  is tricky, to say the least.


----------



## nogojones (Apr 19, 2022)

chilango said:


> People (like Nigel ) who use terms like "1$rael" are not on the same side as me.
> 
> Let's be quite clear...they are my enemies not my allies.


I gave him the benefit of the doubt on it and tried to get him to clarify where his thinking was.

But, he doubled down and It turns out his thinking was right up his arse.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 19, 2022)

Supine said:


> Can someone add the Benny Hill theme tune pls


More likely to be the Hamlet cigar tune.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 19, 2022)

SO, WHO WENT! CAN WE GET A REPORTBACK!


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 19, 2022)

IC3D said:


> Article about Igor Kolomoisky Oligarch/mafia don and his militia from 2015. These militias formed the backbone of the ukr armed forces and numbered in the 1000's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He's still around. His media have given Zelensky a lot of support. ( Allegedly) Zelensky has close relationship with him. And the promise of de oligarchisation of Ukraine was selective and didn't really affect Kolomoisky.









						Will Zelenskyy target all Ukrainian oligarchs equally?
					

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy recently unveiled plans to curb the political influence of the country's powerful oligarchs, but skeptics question whether he will target oligarch ally Ihor Kolomoisky.




					www.atlanticcouncil.org
				




To be fair to Zelensky the Oligarchs are so deeply embedded in Ukrainian "democracy" that to de oligarchise Ukrainian society would be Herculean effort. 

Not all are pro Putin. One of problems of Ukraine as a post Communist state is that the new ruling class the Oligarchs have been divided on this.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 19, 2022)

ska invita said:


> i think you misunderstood Gramsci's post - the Aidar Volunteer Battalion that the Amnesty war crimes report is about are also Ukrainian, not Russian. I think Gramsci is saying "Why go on about Azov, they're barely as bad as the other Ukrainian battalions." Thats my understanding of his post.



Yes it was. With all due respect to Southlondon I think he got the wrong end of the stick.

Also my point was that these militias were encouraged by the State but little oversight or control of how they behaved happened. Hence human rights abuses. 

IC3D link detailed the Ukrainian state army was so weak that independently funded militias bolstered the fight against Russian backed separatists.

How much has changed since then I'm not clear on. Some have been incorporated into regular army.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> SO, WHO WENT! CAN WE GET A REPORTBACK!


I didn't, but could have probably given you a fairly accurate account even before the meeting.


----------



## Nigel (Apr 22, 2022)

*NEXT STOP THE WAR COALITION MEETING: BRISTOL, 27th APRIL 2022!
*


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 22, 2022)

Ex-RT broadcaster. Amazing.


----------



## Sue (Apr 22, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Ex-RT broadcaster. Amazing.


Yes, seems a bit of a weird selling point but what do I know...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 22, 2022)

TBF, she resigned because of the war. 



> Shadia Edwards-Dashti, a TV correspondent, has also left the company after joining in 2015 as a broadcast journalist.
> 
> A source told *i *Ms Edwards-Dashti, a former Stop the War employee, was contacted to go live at 6am GMT on Thursday to cover news of the Russian invasion, but refused and quit with “immediate effect”, with several others following by midday.
> 
> Tweeting just a few hours after the first Russian missiles struck Ukraine, Ms Edwards-Dashti said: “I want to thank everyone at the channel for giving me the opportunity to broadcast globally on issues that I am passionate about. Best of luck to all my former colleagues,” she said.











						Russia Today hit by resignation of several UK-based journalists after Ukraine invasion
					

More people are reconsidering their positions at RT as even those closest to the Kremlin have been left 'in shock and disbelief' at Russian leader Vladimir Putin's decision to invade Ukraine




					inews.co.uk


----------



## two sheds (Apr 22, 2022)

I'm puzzled as to how you'd get "Russian troops out".


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 22, 2022)

cupid_stunt ah ok, ta.


----------



## Sue (Apr 22, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> TBF, she resigned because of the war.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That makes mentioning it even stranger, surely?


----------



## andysays (Apr 22, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I'm puzzled as to how you'd get "Russian troops out".


I'm sure if you just ask nicely they'd pack up and leave, wouldn't they?


----------



## chilango (Apr 22, 2022)

andysays said:


> I'm sure if you just ask nicely they'd pack up and leave, wouldn't they?



The key is asking them with the right slogan.


----------



## Nigel (Apr 22, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> SO, WHO WENT! CAN WE GET A REPORTBACK!


33 people turned up excluding speakers & chair; about 5 not religious based or politicos, three people from anti homophobia & trans solidarity demo beforehand we leafleted!
Groups who tuned up; Greens, Labour Left, Lib Dems, Unite Community, Momentum, Socialist Party (CWI), Socialist Workers Party, Communist Party Britain, Communist Corresponce Society, Workers Fight & A Couple Of Their Fellow Comrades In France Lutte Ouvriere, Counterfire, Oxford CND, Quakers, Christians (St. Michaels Church); basically most of the left in Oxford was represented!

Conspicuous by their absence; Sparts, IBT
Someone (mmaybe not the group) from Oxford Extinction Rebellion gave their apologies!
ACR/ Socialist Resistance also chose not to attend even though I promised them they could put forward their pro NATO/EU position backing Ukrainian Nationalists!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 22, 2022)

Nigel said:


> 33 people turned up... basically most of the left in Oxford was represented!


----------



## Sue (Apr 22, 2022)

Nigel said:


> 33 people turned up excluding speakers & chair; about 5 not religious based or politicos, three people from anti homophobia & trans solidarity demo beforehand we leafleted!
> Groups who tuned up; Greens, Labour Left, Lib Dems, Unite Community, Momentum, Socialist Party (CWI), Socialist Workers Party, Communist Party Britain, Communist Corresponce Society, Workers Fight & A Couple Of Their Fellow Comrades In France Lutte Ouvriere, Counterfire, Oxford CND, Quakers, Christians (St. Michaels Church); basically most of the left in Oxford was represented!
> 
> Conspicuous by their absence; Sparts, IBT
> ...


Sounds a laugh a minute. 🤣


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 22, 2022)

Nigel said:


> *NEXT STOP THE WAR COALITION MEETING: BRISTOL, 27th APRIL 2022!
> View attachment 319591*


Any Ukrainians booked to speak? (pt.2)


----------



## chilango (Apr 22, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> Any Ukrainians booked to speak? (pt.2)


..or even some Russians?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> Any Ukrainians booked to speak? (pt.2)


FFS, haven't you been listening?  It's '_Ukrainian territory(s_)'.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 22, 2022)

chilango said:


> ..or even some Russians?


They've got an ex-RT journo, is that close enough?


----------



## Nigel (Apr 22, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> Any Ukrainians booked to speak? (pt.2)


You'll have to contct Bristol STWC to find that out!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2022)

TBF, a bit of a coup getting that grumpy tennis player.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2022)

Actually, probably not wise to mention 'coups'.  RT journalists get a bit anxious.


----------



## nogojones (Apr 22, 2022)

Sue said:


> That makes mentioning it even stranger, surely?


This. There must be a better way of showing she has a moral backbone on a flyer. 

Maybe StWC don't want to ostracise the potential pro Putin audience?


----------



## nogojones (Apr 22, 2022)

Nigel said:


> 33 people turned up excluding speakers & chair; about 5 not religious based or politicos, three people from anti homophobia & trans solidarity demo beforehand we leafleted!
> Groups who tuned up; Greens, Labour Left, Lib Dems, Unite Community, Momentum, Socialist Party (CWI), Socialist Workers Party, Communist Party Britain, Communist Corresponce Society, Workers Fight & A Couple Of Their Fellow Comrades In France Lutte Ouvriere, Counterfire, Oxford CND, Quakers, Christians (St. Michaels Church); basically most of the left in Oxford was represented!
> 
> Conspicuous by their absence; Sparts, IBT
> ...


I CBA to check myself. What's the CPB's take on things?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2022)

nogojones said:


> This. There must be a better way of showing she has a moral backbone on a flyer.
> 
> Maybe StWC don't want to ostracise the potential pro Putin audience?


'... _and we definitely won't put polonium in the tea'._


----------



## Nigel (Apr 22, 2022)

chilango said:


> ..or even some Russians?


Should imagine ny ethnic Russians from Ukrainian Regions/Territories whether in Russia or Ukraine regions would be keeping their heads down!
As I've posted up recently International Workers Aid has been re-established by Michael Probsting-RCIT. Even though they take a very pro Ukrainian perspective, after their first convoy to Lviv, from brief dialogue with one of their members pointed out violent persecution of minorities, along with victimisation, scapegoating and persecution; significantly, Tartars & Ethnic Russians( although I'd expect Romas would come in there also.)
Hopefully could get something out of this, at least represetatives of these peoples suffering under Ukrainian Nationalism!


----------



## Sue (Apr 22, 2022)

Nigel, don't think you ever explained why you say 'Ukrainian regions/ territories'  rather than simply 'Ukraine'?


----------



## Nigel (Apr 22, 2022)

nogojones said:


> I CBA to check myself. What's the CPB's take on things?


I purposefully didn't minute the meeting for obvious reasons; you'll either have to attend Oxford Stop The War Coalition meetings or contact CPB to find that out.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Apr 22, 2022)

Nigel said:


> I purposefully didn't minute the meeting for obvious reasons



It was too embarrassing?


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 22, 2022)

Sue said:


> Nigel, don't think you ever explained why you say 'Ukrainian regions/ territories'  rather than simply 'Ukraine'?


Because Nigel doesn't believe Ukraine is or should be an autonomous country, but instead that Ukrainian nationalism = nazism. Now where have I heard that before...?

I wonder if he ever refers to 'Scottish region' or 'Welsh territories'? And if not, why not?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> Because Nigel doesn't believe Ukraine is or should be an autonomous country, but instead that Ukrainian nationalism = nazism. Now where have I heard that before...?
> 
> I wonder if he ever refers to 'Scottish region' or 'Welsh territories'? And if not, why not?


I think the rule of thumb is: '_if Russia decides to invade a country, it can't be a country'._


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 22, 2022)

Wilf said:
			
		

> I think the rule of thumb is: '_if Russia decides to invade a country, it can't be a country'._



Now is the time, with absolute historical accuracy in mind, to start referring to Russia as _Northern Rus' region._


----------



## chilango (Apr 22, 2022)

Wilf said:


> TBF, a bit of a coup getting that grumpy tennis player.


C'mon Tim!


----------



## chilango (Apr 22, 2022)

Sue said:


> Nigel, don't think you ever explained why you say 'Ukrainian regions/ territories'  rather than simply 'Ukraine'?


Give it time. He'll be writing "Ukkkraine" before too long at this rate


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 22, 2022)

nogojones said:


> I CBA to check myself. What's the CPB's take on things?


No, I don't think the Communist Bollocks Alliance turned up in the end.


----------



## Sue (Apr 22, 2022)

chilango said:


> Give it time. He'll be writing "Ukkkraine" before too long at this rate


Oh chilango .


----------



## Nigel (Apr 22, 2022)

Sue said:


> Nigel, don't think you ever explained why you say 'Ukrainian regions/ territories'  rather than simply 'Ukraine'?


I find the complexities; history, cartography/conveyance, ethnic disputes, logsitics, leglaity/treaties/conventions/agreementents: Verkhovna Rada legislation/Minsk Protocol; how that fits in with UN Resolutions e.g. 68/262 contradicting 2014 referendums etc etc a bit overwheling to give an accurate account of this!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 22, 2022)

Nigel said:


> I find the complexities; history, cartography/conveyance, ethnic disputes, logsitics, leglaity/treaties/conventions/agreementents: Verkhovna Rada legislation/Minsk Protocol; how that fits in with UN Resolutions e.g. 68/262 contradicting 2014 referendums etc etc a bit overwheling to give an accurate account of this!



You mean the rigged 2014 Crimean referendum?


----------



## chilango (Apr 22, 2022)

Sue said:


> Oh chilango .


Sorry.


----------



## nogojones (Apr 22, 2022)

Nigel said:


> I purposefully didn't minute the meeting for obvious reasons; you'll either have to attend Oxford Stop The War Coalition meetings or contact CPB to find that out.


I bet they call them the Ukrainian regions


----------



## nogojones (Apr 22, 2022)

Wilf said:


> TBF, a bit of a coup getting that grumpy tennis player.


The LTA should ban that cunt n all


----------



## nogojones (Apr 22, 2022)

Nigel said:


> I find the complexities; history, cartography/conveyance, ethnic disputes, logsitics, leglaity/treaties/conventions/agreementents: Verkhovna Rada legislation/Minsk Protocol; how that fits in with UN Resolutions e.g. 68/262 contradicting 2014 referendums etc etc a bit overwheling to give an accurate account of this!


Nigel you really are starting to sound, not so much anti-war, but more pro-Putin, with a side helping of antisemitism.

I've not really paid too much attention to peoples political affiliations on here over the years, but you never really stood out as a cunt to me in the past. What's happened to you?


----------



## JimW (Apr 22, 2022)

TBF an ex RT journo could also say they're not a dyed-in-the-wool anti-Russian and they still think Putin's a mad cunt though obviously that would be a pleasant surprise.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 27, 2022)

Nigel said:


> 33 people turned up excluding speakers & chair; about 5 not religious based or politicos, three people from anti homophobia & trans solidarity demo beforehand we leafleted!
> Groups who tuned up; Greens, Labour Left, Lib Dems, Unite Community, Momentum, Socialist Party (CWI), Socialist Workers Party, Communist Party Britain, Communist Corresponce Society, Workers Fight & A Couple Of Their Fellow Comrades In France Lutte Ouvriere, Counterfire, Oxford CND, Quakers, Christians (St. Michaels Church); basically most of the left in Oxford was represented!



Reassuring to learn no normal people turned up. Did anyone look around the room and wonder aloud why not?


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 27, 2022)

nogojones said:


> Nigel you really are starting to sound, not so much anti-war, but more pro-Putin, with a side helping of antisemitism.
> 
> I've not really paid too much attention to peoples political affiliations on here over the years, but you never really stood out as a cunt to me in the past. What's happened to you?



He responded to a post of mine about a Serb pro-Russia demo with a love smiley. Then there's the I$rael thing. Unless I'm missing something that's all dodgy as fuck.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 27, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Reassuring to learn no normal people turned up. Did anyone look around the room and wonder aloud why not?


Even the Quakers must have turned their big collars up on the way out. No way they'd want to be recognised in that company.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 27, 2022)

'We're going to the pub after the meeting, do you want to come along?'
- No, fuck off.


----------



## Sue (Apr 27, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Reassuring to learn no normal people turned up. Did anyone look around the room and wonder aloud why not?


I quite like the sound of the Communist Corresponding Society* tbh. I mean I'm sure they're awful but...

*Seventeenth-century calculating machines*
_7:30pm, Thursday 16 June_





__





						CCS
					

Communist Corresponding Society




					communistcorrespondingsociety.org
				




* I assumed if was 'Correspondence' but apparently not.


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## JimW (Apr 27, 2022)

Sue said:


> I quite like the sound of the Communist Corresponding Society* tbh. I mean I'm sure they're awful but...
> 
> *Seventeenth-century calculating machines*
> _7:30pm, Thursday 16 June_
> ...


Tip of the hat to the London Corresponding Society of radical fame, I presume.


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## Nigel (Apr 27, 2022)

JimW said:


> Tip of the hat to the London Corresponding Society of radical fame, I presume.


I'm not sure they would want to be considered in the same tradition as E.P Thompson!


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## nogojones (Apr 27, 2022)

Nigel said:


> I'm not sure they would want to be considered in the same tradition as E.P Thompson!


You're cool with being in the same tradition as George Galloway though, so you never know.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 27, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> He responded to a post of mine about a Serb pro-Russia demo with a love smiley. Then there's the I$rael thing. Unless I'm missing something that's all dodgy as fuck.



So, Nigel, are you going to explain yourself over these two matters?


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## Shechemite (Apr 27, 2022)

Depressing to see Unite Community attend


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## hitmouse (Apr 27, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> Depressing to see Unite Community attend


Tbf, as much as I have a lot of respect for what they do as an organisation, it's not like it's ever been a particularly crank-free or even crank-light zone?


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## Shechemite (Apr 27, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Tbf, as much as I have a lot of respect for what they do as an organisation, it's not like it's ever been a particularly crank-free or even crank-light zone?


But that’s what makes it depressing. Decent people not putting anywhere near enough blue water between themselves and the cranks; any sort of socialist alternative (no pun intended) being fucked by this crap; people who are at the bottom of society (unite community a big player in anti-austerity/disability politics) being groomed by scum.


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## chilango (Apr 27, 2022)

I do wonder if there's anything left to save in/of the Left.


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## Nigel (Apr 27, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> But that’s what makes it depressing. Decent people not putting anywhere near enough blue water between themselves and the cranks; any sort of socialist alternative (no pun intended) being fucked by this crap; people who are at the bottom of society (unite community a big player in anti-austerity/disability politics) being groomed by scum.


Ex Class War; Andy Martin, although claiming to be 'ironic' appears to share your sentiments!


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## Shechemite (Apr 27, 2022)

The Soviet Union introduced eugenic policies in 1920, it’s welfare provision punished those with ‘innate’ impairments (as such people couldn’t blame their disability on anyone else); failing to work due to disability/illness could get you sent to the gulag, and in the gulag, if you claimed your were ill or injured it was assumed you were faking it. That’s some great egalitarianism.


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## Carl Steele (Apr 27, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> The Soviet Union introduced eugenic policies in 1919, it’s welfare provision punished those with ‘innate’ impairments (as such people couldn’t blame their disability on anyone else); failing to work due to disability/illness could get you sent to the gulag, and in the gulag, if you claimed your were ill or injured it was assumed you were faking it. That’s some great egalitarianism.



Can you give a reference? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I was not aware of this.


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## Shechemite (Apr 27, 2022)

Carl Steele said:


> Can you give a reference? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I was not aware of this.



Sorry, somewhat tired and angry. I found this a good start "There Are No Invalids in the USSR!" A Missing Soviet Chapter in the New Disability History 							| Disability Studies Quarterly


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## Nigel (Apr 28, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> Sorry, somewhat tired and angry. I found this a good start "There Are No Invalids in the USSR!" A Missing Soviet Chapter in the New Disability History                             | Disability Studies Quarterly


What about a credible reference!?
Here's an arguably better article with better and credible references!




__





						Disability and the Soviet Union: Advances and retreats | International Socialist Review
					

By the end of October 1917, the Bolshevik Party had won a clear majority of workers and peasants within the nationwide network of soviets (revolutionary councils) to their program of the overthrow of...




					isreview.org


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## frogwoman (Apr 28, 2022)

Nigel I'm not trying to have a go but this half trolling Putin support really isn't funny.


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## Supine (Apr 28, 2022)

Nigel said:


> Ex Class War; Andy Martin, although claiming to be 'ironic' appears to share your sentiments!




How can posting that not result in a ban from the forum?


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## Shechemite (Apr 28, 2022)

I don’t think anyone can be arsed to report it (I haven’t)


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## hitmouse (Apr 28, 2022)

For what it's worth, there's a bit of discussion about that video here:








						Andy Martin/The Apostles: What's That All About !
					

During The 1980's used to listen to The Apostles all the time ! Punk Obituary, in many ways was life changing for me; used to play and jam to it more than other Anarcho Punk Album! A friend of mine was a bit obsessive; pre-ordering and getting singles from South London, which we followed, almost...




					www.urban75.net


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## Jeff Robinson (Apr 28, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Fwiw, that Simon Pirani blog that LynnDoyleCooper linked to elsewhere included a link to this exchange, where the chair of Brent Stop the War tries and fails to convince national StW to adopt
> “• Russian troops out of Ukraine!
> • No to war!
> • Refugees welcome here!”
> ...



The STW response is so brain dead. It’s so cult-like. The main worry of the author seems not to be to defend a coherent position or build any popular support but rather to avoid being called ‘pro-imperialist’ by an even more irrelevant sect.


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## Dystopiary (May 1, 2022)

George Galloway is no longer listed as a patron of StW, so that's something. Wonder if they quietly dropped him. 

They've got this Day of Action for Peace in Ukraine coming up. Well I thought maybe they've been listening to criticism. Maybe yes but actually NATO.
"We are calling for the withdrawal of Russian troops, an end to the military escalation by the NATO countries and for all efforts to be focused on finding a negotiated solution to this terrible war on [date]. Join us!"​
The poster/flyer does actually say "Russian troops out!" before the obligatory Nato expansion bollocks. Thing is, why would they even have the "No to Nato Network" involved with this if they don't have a pro-Putin agenda? Finland's only joining because of the invasion into Ukraine, the idea wasn't particularly popular before this war.


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## Gramsci (May 3, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> George Galloway is no longer listed as a patron of StW, so that's something. Wonder if they quietly dropped him.
> 
> They've got this Day of Action for Peace in Ukraine coming up. Well I thought maybe they've been listening to criticism. Maybe yes but actually NATO.
> "We are calling for the withdrawal of Russian troops, an end to the military escalation by the NATO countries and for all efforts to be focused on finding a negotiated solution to this terrible war on [date]. Join us!"​
> ...



Looked up No to Nato Network and they have been around for quite some time.





__





						About us: No to war – no to NATO network – No to war – no to NATO Network
					






					www.no-to-nato.org
				




They were critical of NATO long before the present conflict. 

NATO was a Cold War organisation that should have been wound up after end of Cold War and collapse of Communisn in Eastern Europe. It found a new role for itself outside of Europe which wasn't what it was originally about. It wasnt set up to defend democracy but to oppose USSR in the Cold War. Portugal for example was early member when it was still ruled by Salazar. Who was only overthrown in the 70s. Greece for some years was run by Military dictatorship which didn't stop it being member of NATO.

Not saying this to deflect from Putins responsibility for Ukraine invasion. 

Its not imo right to imply any criticism of NATO is being pro Putin.


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## Dystopiary (May 3, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> Looked up No to Nato Network and they have been around for quite some time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely think criticism of NATO is valid, yes. But I don't get why No to NATO would be involved with this day of action for peace in Ukraine, especially when there's an apparent absence of any Ukrainian, Russian or Belarusian groups. And especially with some of the questionable behaviour of StW so far concerning the war in Ukraine.


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## Wilf (May 3, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> George Galloway is no longer listed as a patron of StW, so that's something. Wonder if they quietly dropped him.


His Russian paymasters told him to drop the Stwc because one of their meetings failed to say 'the Ukrainian territories are Nazis' the required 25 times.


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## tim (May 4, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> Because Nigel doesn't believe Ukraine is or should be an autonomous country, but instead that Ukrainian nationalism = nazism. Now where have I heard that before...?
> 
> I wonder if he ever refers to 'Scottish region' or 'Welsh territories'? And if not, why not?




Or the Irish region which has had some dodgy nationalists too.


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## The39thStep (May 4, 2022)

Aside from Stop The War and the minor Trot/Paul Mason alliance, Ukraine Solidarity Campaign is there any other anti war groups that can muster feet on the street regardless of the correct slogans?


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## nogojones (May 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Aside from Stop The War and the minor Trot/Paul Mason alliance, Ukraine Solidarity Campaign is there any other anti war groups that can muster feet on the street regardless of the correct slogans?


Possibly CND? but they must be a rump of what they once were.

I was wondering what the SP were up to as I've had some TUSC leaflets through the door. It looks like their official line is "don't mention the war".


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## Smokeandsteam (May 4, 2022)

nogojones said:


> I was wondering what the SP were up to as I've had some TUSC leaflets through the door. It looks like their official line is "don't mention the war".



Be a bit odd if they did if the leaflets are regarding the council elections?


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## nogojones (May 4, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Be a bit odd if they did if the leaflets are regarding the council elections?


I had a quick peep at the SP website and didn't see much there either


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## frogwoman (May 4, 2022)

nogojones said:


> Possibly CND? but they must be a rump of what they once were.
> 
> I was wondering what the SP were up to as I've had some TUSC leaflets through the door. It looks like their official line is "don't mention the war".


'I mentioned NATO once, but I think I got away with it.'


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## Smokeandsteam (May 4, 2022)

nogojones said:


> I had a quick peep at the SP website and didn't see much there either



Fair enough. But, still, it would be bizarre for TUSC to campaign for council seats by focussing on Ukraine.


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## The39thStep (May 4, 2022)

Aside from a demo at the beginning of the war and some small pickets of the Russian Embassy very little activity here despite there still being a large amount of coverage in newspapers, TV and online  The May Day demos had a reasonable turnout but the focus was on struggles in Portugal.


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## Wilf (May 4, 2022)

Here's the Assadist Workers Party and their take on the war - 'Putin has a point'.  I'm sure they've reached this position through an inclusive policy making process, culminating in perhaps a one day conference.  This Galloway bloke is merely the mouthpiece for that collective voice.  









						Putin has a point…
					

Leader of the Workers Party, George Galloway in a clip on TikTok has highlighted a piece in the Spectator. The magazine, not exactly famous as a left-wing journal, told people to whisper softly that "Putin has a point". The magazine was talking about the turning of Ukraine into an armed camp...




					workerspartybritain.org


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## nogojones (May 4, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Here's the Assadist Workers Party and their take on the war - 'Putin has a point'.  I'm sure they've reached this position through an inclusive policy making process, culminating in perhaps a one day conference.  This Galloway bloke is merely the mouthpiece for that collective voice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was hoping his Tiktok would have him doing a little dance.


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## tim (May 4, 2022)

The Workers' Party has a prick.


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## frogwoman (May 4, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Here's the Assadist Workers Party and their take on the war - 'Putin has a point'.  I'm sure they've reached this position through an inclusive policy making process, culminating in perhaps a one day conference.  This Galloway bloke is merely the mouthpiece for that collective voice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Might want to break the link


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## Lurdan (May 4, 2022)

For those who want to appreciate the prick 'in full flow' but who don't want to go to the Wankers Party site here's the video:



Spoiler: tik tok turd



View attachment galloway.mp4



The Spectator article (archived) he refers to dates from January and has aged about as well as the fucker citing it.


> Yet Russia’s aspiration for Ukraine is not as dramatic as it’s often made out to be. Nowhere has Putin suggested that he envisages a future single state, and there’s little reason to believe the Kremlin — hemmed in by a struggling economy, stagnant living standards, and a population which has demonstrated absolutely no appetite for dangerous foreign adventures — intends to reconstitute the Soviet Union. Instead, to protect its own security, Russia desires a neutral, friendly, multilingual Ukraine.


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## cupid_stunt (May 4, 2022)

He's just a twat in a hat.


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## nogojones (May 4, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> Might want to break the link


I don't mind if our milkshakes brings all the tankies to our yard. It'll be a bit of sport for most and company for those that feel a bit left out from the lack of Putin love.


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## Wilf (May 4, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> Might want to break the link


I'm not very well up on this internet that they have nowadays.  Does linking to a site alert the people on that site that there is a link on urban?


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## nogojones (May 4, 2022)

Wilf said:


> I'm not very well up on this internet that they have nowadays.  Does linking to a site alert the people on that site that there is a link on urban?


I hope so. Come on George, come on down and do your Tiktok dance.


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## Wilf (May 4, 2022)

nogojones said:


> I hope so. Come on George, come on down and do your Tiktok dance.


'_You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out, Put-in, Put-out....'_


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## moochedit (May 4, 2022)

Wilf said:


> I'm not very well up on this internet that they have nowadays.  Does linking to a site alert the people on that site that there is a link on urban?



 there are ways for a site owner to find out what other sites link to them.....









						How to Find Who Links to Your Website (and What to Do Next)
					

Learn who links to your website and what to do next.




					ahrefs.com


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## hitmouse (May 4, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Aside from Stop The War and the minor Trot/Paul Mason alliance, Ukraine Solidarity Campaign is there any other anti war groups that can muster feet on the street regardless of the correct slogans?


I mean, dunno how much is still going on, but at the start of the war there were a fair few demos held by Ukrainians, with little or any overlap with the left groups? Just had a look around, apparently "London Euromaidan" had a rally at Downing Street today and have another one planned on Sunday. Don't know how big they are, the numbers on fb don't look impressive but that could just be because no-one uses it anymore?


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