# Apple iPhone



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 31, 2006)

Linky!


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## DG55 (Mar 31, 2006)

Yawn


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## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 31, 2006)

???

fake apple products?


why?  just why?  


mind you  it would be a fucker to open


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## editor (Mar 31, 2006)

The "iPhone is on its way" story has been going around forever, with endless fakes being trotted out.

I doubt very much that they'll even come close to producing something as good - and as well supported by software - as the Palm Treo.

I'm sure it'll look great though.


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## Structaural (Jan 10, 2007)

The real thing - I'm impressed:

http://www.apple.com/iphone/


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2007)

Hands on with it: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/09/some-hands-on-time-with-the-iphone/


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## Keniff (Jan 10, 2007)

If you have time, watch the full demo of it on: 

http://www.apple.com/ 

(bottom left hand side, click on "Macworld Keynote" but it is very long) 

This has been a long awaited 'Mac Rumour' for over a year now, and it looks very impressive...Even just for the scrolling action alone. 
But it's not gonna be released in the States until June, and they hope to get it to Europe for Sept/Oct. 
$500usd for a 4GB & $600usd for an 8GB. 

-- 

To be honest, I have a "Nokia N80" and it does all the things the iPhone does, and I still only ever use it for normal telephone phone calls and text messaging. 

I'm a 100% loyal MacMan, but there's a lot of bells, clicks and whistles on this iPhone that just arn't doing for me, and I'm sure your everyday user will never make use of either, but then again, if my service provider gave me one for free (as they did the Nokia N80), I'd give it a try.


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## Structaural (Jan 10, 2007)

If I can get one free with a new two year contract - I'll have it


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## Dask (Jan 10, 2007)

Keniff said:
			
		

> To be honest, I have a "Nokia N80" and it does all the things the iPhone does, and I still only ever use it for normal telephone phone calls and text messaging.
> 
> I'm a 100% loyal MacMan, but there's a lot of bells, clicks and whistles on this iPhone that just arn't doing for me, and I'm sure your everyday user will never make use of either, but then again, if my service provider gave me one for free (as they did the Nokia N80), I'd give it a try.



I have an N80...the iPhone makes it look like a ZX spectrum!


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## pseudonarcissus (Jan 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I doubt very much that they'll even come close to producing something as good - and as well supported by software - as the Palm Treo.
> 
> I'm sure it'll look great though.



I'm looking forward to getting an iPhone....as soon as the contract for my Palm Treo expires...the Palm is shit! (with the greatest respect to dear Ed.)

1. it needs that software support as you need 3rd party software to get the ringer loud enough to hear.
2. somehow I manage to turn the ringer volume down to zero using the buttons on the side without realizing, meaning lots of missed calls.
3. you cant have ringer and vibrate at the same time (but the proper switch is good)
4 it crashes A LOT and has to be reset with a paper clip (eventually I found the little tool in the stylus)

Anywa, I just gace cingular my email addresss, we'll see when they can get one to me


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## editor (Jan 10, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> 1. it needs that software support as you need 3rd party software to get the ringer loud enough to hear.
> 2. somehow I manage to turn the ringer volume down to zero using the buttons on the side without realizing, meaning lots of missed calls.
> 3. you cant have ringer and vibrate at the same time (but the proper switch is good)
> 4 it crashes A LOT and has to be reset with a paper clip (eventually I found the little tool in the stylus)


My Treo has a loud ringing tone, I've never accidentally turned the volume down, it vibrates and rings at the same time and hasn't barely ever crashes.

But good luck with your iphone!


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> I'm looking forward to getting an iPhone....as soon as the contract for my Palm Treo expires...the Palm is shit! (with the greatest respect to dear Ed.)
> 
> 1. it needs that software support as you need 3rd party software to get the ringer loud enough to hear.
> 2. somehow I manage to turn the ringer volume down to zero using the buttons on the side without realizing, meaning lots of missed calls.
> ...



Now there's a view you never hear about on the treonauts site!


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## pseudonarcissus (Jan 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> My Treo has a loud ringing tone, I've never accidentally turned the volume down, it vibrates and rings at the same time and hasn't barely ever crashes.
> 
> But good luck with your iphone!



maybe it's just the 600 that's shit....I am sceptical about the iPhone qwerty keyboard thing....we will see


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## jæd (Jan 10, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> 2. somehow I manage to turn the ringer volume down to zero using the buttons on the side without realizing, meaning lots of missed calls.



This happens occasionally on my 650... But I have the "Butler" which will nag me until I look at the phone so I rarely miss a call... Right at the moment I'd wait for iPhone vs 2.0 before I'd buy it...


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## editor (Jan 10, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> maybe it's just the 600 that's shit....I am sceptical about the iPhone qwerty keyboard thing....we will see


The 600? Blimey that's *ancient* in phone terms!


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## pseudonarcissus (Jan 10, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> But I have the "Butler" which will nag me until I look at the phone so I rarely miss a call...



images of you employing a man with a silver tray carrying the phone about like Lord What'shisname in Chigley/Trumpton are in my brain.

I fully intend to road test this device for U75.  

I know the internet will be shit, Cingular are notoriously slow so it's going to have to use it's built-in wi-fi.  I'll be interested if I can transfer my Palm address book


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## pseudonarcissus (Jan 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The 600? Blimey that's *ancient* in phone terms!



indeed, conveniently coming to the end of its 2 year contract


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> I fully intend to road test this device for U75.



Excellent! Look forward to reading your thoughts.


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## dlx1 (Jan 10, 2007)

does it come with snake.

4gb & 6gb on the site it show 8GB
 how slim.


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## colin37400 (Jan 10, 2007)

but does it have a camera?


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## dogmatique (Jan 10, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> indeed, conveniently coming to the end of its 2 year contract



Is this two year contract thing standard in the States?  I notice that the iPhone contract with Cingular is also two years - that's a hell of a period to recoup device subsidy...


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## dogmatique (Jan 10, 2007)

colin37400 said:
			
		

> but does it have a camera?



yep, though only a perfunctory 2meg with no flash and no zoom.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> yep, though only a perfunctory 2meg with no flash and no zoom.



No bad thing, digital zoom is shite and not worth bothering. And I've yet to see a flash on a phone useful if you're more than a foot or so away.


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## Firky (Jan 10, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> The real thing - I'm impressed:
> 
> http://www.apple.com/iphone/



Never been much if a neophile, never been into mobile phones but I WANT that.


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## dogmatique (Jan 10, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> No bad thing, digital zoom is shite and not worth bothering. And I've yet to see a flash on a phone useful if you're more than a foot or so away.



True, but with anything under 5meg, you're never going to get better than a snappy snap camera, which is what most phones are used for.  I'm very impressed with my Sony K800i phone's camera, the flash works really well for as you say, close up shots - ie out with your mates or on holiday, etc.

Maybe the next versions camera, abilities will be better as they make more room with a more compact internal architecture.

This is, after all, their first attempt with components that must have been integrated at least nine months ago if it's ready to go to manufacture now.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> True, but with anything under 5meg, you're never going to get better than a snappy snap camera, which is what most phones are used for.  I'm very impressed with my Sony K800i phone's camera, the flash works really well for as you say, close up shots - ie out with your mates or on holiday, etc.
> 
> Maybe the next versions camera, abilities will be better as they make more room with a more compact internal architecture.
> 
> This is, after all, their first attempt with components that must have been integrated at least nine months ago if it's ready to go to manufacture now.



Dunno about the 5mp thing, my first digital point and click camera was 3mp and the new Sony 3m easily beats its shots in terms of quality...anyway, for me it's not the zoom or the flash its the shutter speed. The Sony phones ime tend to have decent shutter speeds compared to other camera phones (I guess we should just call em phones now that most phones have cameras?). Whether the iPhone has remains to be seen.


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## Sunray (Jan 10, 2007)

For the K800i the camera takes fine pictures and beats just about every camera phone I've ever seen hands down. 

Shot speed up their with their proper cameras would be their next logical step I assume.  This makes tea before it takes a picture.


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## dogmatique (Jan 10, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> This makes tea before it takes a picture.



Good point.  Twas a bit of a moment killer on NYE, and me cats always stop being cute the second you press the trigger...


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## danny la rouge (Jan 10, 2007)

I've never wanted a mobile that does other things.  I don't see the point.  But I have to say that iPhone looks very nice, and has come closer than any other mobile phone-plus to persuading me that I might want it.


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## Divisive Cotton (Jan 10, 2007)

The iTalk has to only look cool - then it will sell shit loads!


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## editor (Jan 11, 2007)

This guy reckons the iPhone won't impact much on the Treo/Blackberry market:
http://www.internetnews.com/infra/article.php/3653211


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## robotsimon (Jan 11, 2007)

Apart from the admittedly gorgeous looks, I don't see what's revolutionary about this. I don't think it can do much (anything?) that my Nokia n80 can't do - quad band, wifi, 3mp camera, web browser, e-mail, video and mp3 player.  And the n80 runs symbian which means you can get a whole load of third party software for it.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> This guy reckons the iPhone won't impact much on the Treo/Blackberry market:
> http://www.internetnews.com/infra/article.php/3653211



Yeah but I reckon the iPod got the same thing back when it was first released...


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## Crispy (Jan 12, 2007)

robotsimon said:
			
		

> Apart from the admittedly gorgeous looks, I don't see what's revolutionary about this. I don't think it can do much (anything?) that my Nokia n80 can't do - quad band, wifi, 3mp camera, web browser, e-mail, video and mp3 player.  And the n80 runs symbian which means you can get a whole load of third party software for it.


Remember that when the ipod launched, there were already quite a few 5GB MP3 hard disk players. The ipod just did it really well and looked good. That's all the iphone does.


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## Techno303 (Jan 12, 2007)




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## jæd (Jan 12, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Yeah but I reckon the iPod got the same thing back when it was first released...






			
				slashdot said:
			
		

> "At an invitation only event Apple has released their new MP3 player called the iPod. iPod is the size of a deck of cards. 2.4" wide by 4" tall by .78" thick 6.5 ounces. 5 GB HDD, 10 hr battery life, charged via FireWire. Works as a firewire drive as well. Works in conjunctions with iTunes 2. Here are Live updates". No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.


http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23/1816257&mode=thread&tid=107

Least they included wireless this time...


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 12, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23/1816257&mode=thread&tid=107
> 
> Least they included wireless this time...



Heh great piece of history that.


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## editor (Jan 12, 2007)

Some wag's already made an iPhone interface for the Treo!






Looks like third party apps are going to be few and far between for the iPhone, with Jobs wanting full control over what gets to be installed:



> “We define everything that is on the phone,” he said. “You don’t want your phone to be like a PC. The last thing you want is to have loaded three apps on your phone and then you go to make a call and it doesn’t work anymore. These are more like iPods than they are like computers.”
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/11/t...exprod=permalink&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin


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## jæd (Jan 12, 2007)

Check the later quote:



> “These are devices that need to work, and you can’t do that if you load any software on them,” he said. “That doesn’t mean there’s not going to be software to buy that you can load on them coming from us. It doesn’t mean we have to write it all, but it means it has to be more of a controlled environment.”



I'm guessing that its going to be locked down, but there won't be a complete lack of 3rd party apps. Anyhow, look at the Ipod... Its not like no-ones installed 3rd party stuff on that...


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## Buddy Bradley (Jan 12, 2007)




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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Some wag's already made an iPhone interface for the Treo!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like an excuse to cover a slow cpu or something to me...


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 12, 2007)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

>



Neat!


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## Crispy (Jan 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Some wag's already made an iPhone interface for the Treo!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know, I wouldn't mind, as long as it comes with enough software to do its job properly. After all, I don't want or need to install extra software on my current phone...
For techy people who like customising everything and fiddling with doodads, this is not the phone for them. But like the iPod, it just does a few things WELL. There's tons of other MP3 players with more features, open platforms etc. but none of them are as painless to use as an iPod. That is the philosophy behind the iPhone and I think it's why it will succeed.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> You know, I wouldn't mind, as long as it comes with enough software to do its job properly. After all, I don't want or need to install extra software on my current phone...
> For techy people who like customising everything and fiddling with doodads, this is not the phone for them. But like the iPod, it just does a few things WELL. There's tons of other MP3 players with more features, open platforms etc. but none of them are as painless to use as an iPod. That is the philosophy behind the iPhone and I think it's why it will succeed.



Very good point, agree with much of that.


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## editor (Jan 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> You know, I wouldn't mind, as long as it comes with enough software to do its job properly. After all, I don't want or need to install extra software on my current phone...


Well, that very much depends on the kind of phone you need. I need both a phone and something I can take away for a weekend instead of my laptop.

The best thing about the Treo is the huuuuge selection of stable software available covering GPS, fax, graphics, web, ftp, Word, maps, email, audio, video, RSS, IRC, dictionaries, games etc etc.


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## pseudonarcissus (Jan 12, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> Is this two year contract thing standard in the States?  I notice that the iPhone contract with Cingular is also two years - that's a hell of a period to recoup device subsidy...



that's the standard...and as editor pointed out you end up dragging an antiquated device around for 18 months...


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## Crispy (Jan 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Well, that very much depends on the kind of phone you need. I need both a phone and something I can take away for a weekend instead of my laptop.
> 
> The best thing about the Treo is the huuuuge selection of stable software available covering GPS, fax, graphics, web, ftp, Word, maps, email, audio, video, RSS, IRC, dictionaries, games etc etc.


Yeah, but really, how many people actually want to do all that with their phone? (not to mention, the iphone does half of those things already) I know you do, but you are not the target audience for this device. They're going for mass market (eventually, once the price comes down)


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## pseudonarcissus (Jan 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Yeah, but really, how many people actually want to do all that with their phone? (not to mention, the iphone does half of those things already) I know you do, but you are not the target audience for this device. They're going for mass market (eventually, once the price comes down)



but with Mac products the price never comes down...they just add features or speed or memory...


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## Crispy (Jan 12, 2007)

iPod price on launch was much higher than it is now. What was it, £400 or something? And for 5GB too. Now it's more like £200 for 40GB. Different market to the computers, so different pricing strategy


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## tarannau (Jan 12, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> but with Mac products the price never comes down...they just add features or speed or memory...



Erm? What about the imac then? Even the G5 version of the imac was considerably cheaper than the G3 and G4 variants....


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## editor (Jan 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Yeah, but really, how many people actually want to do all that with their phone?


Quite a lot of people in the business/smartphone sector, I'd imagine.

That's why the Treo has done so well and that's nowhere near as pricey as the iPhone.


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## scott_forester (Jan 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Looks like third party apps are going to be few and far between for the iPhone, with Jobs wanting full control over what gets to be installed:



This apparently is one of the issues they had with Cisco who wants Apple to ensure their IPT client(s) worked on it. I think Apple will backtrack as more IPT based systems start to sell into the consumer market. I'm not buying a 'smart phone' that doesn't let me load handy apps not matter how shinny it is.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> but you are not the target audience for this device.



I think this is a critical point.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 12, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Erm? What about the imac then? Even the G5 version of the imac was considerably cheaper than the G3 and G4 variants....



Not too mention the iPod range which has dropped in price also.


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## editor (Jan 12, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I think this is a critical point.


Why?

If the iPhone had a hardware keyboard, I'd definitely be giving it a good look.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Why?
> 
> If the iPhone had a hardware keyboard, I'd definitely be giving it a good look.



I thought we were talking about how many apps it'd have etc?


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## editor (Jan 12, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I thought we were talking about how many apps it'd have etc?


Do you know exactly what the iPhone will be capable of?

I don't, that's why I would have given it a good look (if it had a decent keyboard, that is).


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Do you know exactly what the iPhone will be capable of?
> 
> I don't, that's why I would have given it a good look (if it had a decent keyboard, that is).



I don't think many people do but from I can see it isn't aimed at the heavy business user. That's what I thought you were tbh.


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## rocketman (Jan 12, 2007)

Look, here's the headline:

"Apple solves world hunger, cures AIDS".

There'd still be people who said they didn't do it "properly".
It's much better than a Treo. I'd argue that lack of 3G or support for Word documents is a little more important. But I doubt all the quibbles will remain unsolved by the time it ships in the UK - mostly that's just software.

Apple is a software company.

Nokia isn't. And Palm's a spent force. And as for RIM - who they gonna nick ideas from?


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## editor (Jan 13, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> It's much better than a Treo. I'd argue that lack of 3G or support for Word documents is a little more important. But I doubt all the quibbles will remain unsolved by the time it ships in the UK - mostly that's just software.
> 
> Apple is a software company.
> 
> Nokia isn't. And Palm's a spent force. And as for RIM - who they gonna nick ideas from?


And you know all this before the iphone's even been released?

_Remarkable!_

I'll make my judgement on whether the Palm is a 'spent force,'  RIM devoid of ideas and Nokia dead in the water when it finally gets released.


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## Crispy (Jan 13, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Quite a lot of people in the business/smartphone sector, I'd imagine.
> 
> That's why the Treo has done so well and that's nowhere near as pricey as the iPhone.


Ah, but that market is so much smaller than the mass market. Which is a market which couldn't give a flying fig about word compatability or ftp access. Of course, it's ahead of its time - apple stuff often is. But give it 3 years, and I will bet you that the iPhone will be THE hot phone to have, and people will very much enjoy using one.


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## editor (Jan 13, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Ah, but that market is so much smaller than the mass market. Which is a market which couldn't give a flying fig about word compatability or ftp access. Of course, it's ahead of its time - apple stuff often is. But give it 3 years, and I will bet you that the iPhone will be THE hot phone to have, and people will very much enjoy using one.


Apple's sky-high pricing hardly puts it in the mass market sector.

And I wouldn't like to predict what will be happening in 3 years time either.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 13, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Apple's sky-high pricing hardly puts it in the mass market sector.



How do you explain the success of the iPod then? They are overpriced but still dominate the mp3 market. A mass market success if there ever was one...


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## editor (Jan 13, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> How do you explain the success of the iPod then? They are overpriced but still dominate the mp3 market. A mass market success if there ever was one...


The MP3 market is _entirely different_ to that of the phone. The MP3 market was still relatively new when the iPod was launched. 

The mass market expect new phones to be free with their contracts, with the networks subsiding the entire cost. People usually change phones for free after a year.

All this is completely different to Apple entering a mature mobile market with a relatively expensive upmarket handset limited to one network.

That's not to say that the iPhone won't be a success, but comparing its launch to the iPod is somewhat erroneous IMO.


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## Crispy (Jan 13, 2007)

Apple iPod - 5GB, 2001 - $399
Apple iPod - 4GB, 2007 - $199

agree with your point about the differences in the market though.
I still think that once the fantastic things you can do with a smartphone are really easy to do, then more people will want one. We'll see I suppose. I still can't wait to have a stroke on one of them


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 13, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The MP3 market is _entirely different_ to that of the phone. The MP3 market was still relatively new when the iPod was launched.
> 
> The mass market expect new phones to be free with their contracts, with the networks subsiding the entire cost. People usually change phones for free after a year.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure it is in this case, remember this is also a an iPod but the one everyone has wanted since video; a widescreen one. I reckon there's a lot of iPod owners eyeing this up as their next iPod and looking at their phones and thinking they don't look as cool anymore...


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## rocketman (Jan 13, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> And you know all this before the iphone's even been released?



Erm, yes, I do.




			
				editor said:
			
		

> _Remarkable!_[/QUOTE=editor]
> Why, thank you young man
> 
> 
> ...


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## Pie 1 (Jan 13, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> but with Mac products the price never comes down...they just add features or speed or memory...



Err, but thats the same as coming down in price is it not?

My old imac G4 17" 800mhz 756RAM cost me £1750 in Jan 2003.
Today I could get a 24" 2.33 duel core with 2GB RAM for £120 less.
Even the lowest level 17' imac is still twice as powerful and only £799.

I fail to see how you can claim that they haven't come down in price?


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## scott_forester (Jan 13, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I'll make my judgement on whether the Palm is a 'spent force,'  RIM devoid of ideas and Nokia dead in the water when it finally gets released.



Companies like Nokia aren't going to miss the 10 million units that Steve Jobs says he is going to sell, even on that number Motorolas sales of the razar far exclude them. Apple are aiming a niche not a mass market - I doubt I'll see many corporate Iphones.


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## rocketman (Jan 13, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The MP3 market is _entirely different_ to that of the phone. The MP3 market was still relatively new when the iPod was launched..



Granted the MP3 market was relatively new - but the markets do have one thing in common - mobility. That's the key driver for both, and the mobile phone is inevitably part of the future of the MP3 (now digital media) market.

So what Apple has done is attempt to meet future - not current - expectations. And set a new bar for what people expect from such a device. Right now they are gathering feedback, and at least some of the features currently described as 'missing' will appear by the time it ships. And in any case, they are preparing a V2 model, probably for Europe, or so it seems.

You see, by meeting future expectations, that's how Apple answers the prevailing market drivers - by setting up new ones. 




			
				editor said:
			
		

> The mass market expect new phones to be free with their contracts, with the networks subsiding the entire cost. People usually change phones for free after a year.



OK, so that's the mass market; but the mass market is to appeal to the dictatorship of  the average. Apple isn't expecting to recreate iPod success in this market - total dominance - but is aiming to take a slice - and that slice isn't the mass market. 10 million sales is a considerable slice of cash to Apple's bottom line, more than enough to justify future innnovations in the category (if you ask me, they have numerous development options available using existing technologies - this time next year? There will be even more.

Meanwhile, existing makers must create their own software solutions to match iPhone's features; *sure, there are features iPhone isn't offering - yet*. They do this in-house, or they use Microsoft software. It took Redmond years to convince mobile telcos to work with Windows - the telcos had wached Microsoft's actions in computing, and didn't want their market to be in thrall to a proven monopolist, which Microsoft is. So that relationship isn't that strong.




			
				editor said:
			
		

> All this is completely different to Apple entering a mature mobile market with a relatively expensive upmarket handset limited to one network.
> That's not to say that the iPhone won't be a success, but comparing its launch to the iPod is somewhat erroneous IMO.



So you mean erroneous in terms of future sales? The target sales are higher than those originally aimed for with the iPod - so, in a sense, the iPhone is a bigger deal.
As per the one network thing - that's in the US, Apple can, if it wishes, employ a different go to market strategy in each country. In the UK market it makes sense to deal with multiple partners. The US price, incidentlly, reflects a market in which the subsidies on handsets have been slimmer than those that exist in Europe. But the US is also a market which is only recently emerging as significant - US was slow to the mobile party, so there's plenty of potential upside in the US market for handset vendors, and CE spend in that country is higher than in others (partially cos groceries and petrol are cheaper there).

In the UK, Apple will probably cock it up, though, coming to market with a phone carrying little subsidy that's linked to just one network, so the impact here, once the oohs and aahs have gone by, the impact may be less significant than in the US, but certainly there's a lot of people here looking at the device who will buy one the minute it ships.

Nokia, Palm and RIM do have to answer back by then, so whatever brand you prefer, the good news is that the future is one in which manufacturers are forced to do a better job, offering better products.


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## Pie 1 (Jan 13, 2007)

Good post rocketman.

I think your on the money with regard to the diferences in the US network market. 
I was dicussing this with a friend the other day, we both thought that the later shipping date for Europe was probably due to Apple having to negotiate a much more complex network provider market and savey consumers in Europe.
There's no way they can just go with one provider in Europe and esspecially in the UK and they must know this.
I think your right though - they'll still manage to fuck it up initially somehow


----------



## Structaural (Jan 15, 2007)

Very funny article from Sunday's Observer:

Armando Iannucci:
link

'Now, what's this? [Grainy, green video footage appears on the phone and is projected on to a large screen at the front of the hall.] Why, it's the notorious video-phoned footage of Saddam Hussein's hanging. This footage sent shockwaves throughout the world. Many people were appalled by what they saw. I was appalled. [Meaningful pause]. I was appalled at the poor picture quality of the images! [Audience laughter, which lasts for three minutes.]'


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 15, 2007)

iPhone is teh ghey.


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 15, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The mass market expect new phones to be free with their contracts, with the networks subsiding the entire cost. People usually change phones for free after a year.



This is the key point in the uk.  I've got a camera/phone/web/mp3/radio/application device that came for free with my contract, and very nifty it is too.  Why would I bother to buy an iPhone?

The only reason you'd fork out cash for an iPhone is if you were (a) a fanboy or (b) a reader of cheekbone magazine.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 15, 2007)

fractionMan said:
			
		

> This is the key point in the uk.  I've got a camera/phone/web/mp3/radio/application device that came for free with my contract, and very nifty it is too.  Why would I bother to buy an iPhone?
> 
> The only reason you'd fork out cash for an iPhone is if you were (a) a fanboy or (b) a reader of cheekbone magazine.



(c) in da money?


----------



## fractionMan (Jan 15, 2007)

Yup.  Status symbol.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 15, 2007)

fractionMan said:
			
		

> Yup.  Status symbol.


Like ipod used to be. Now every other person's got those white earbuds, it seems.


----------



## jæd (Jan 15, 2007)

fractionMan said:
			
		

> Why would I bother to buy an iPhone?



Perceived ease of use...? Quality...? Integration with Mac...? I've found that I don't change my phone each you. All of my changes have been to upgrade the phone with better features depending on my lifestyle at the time...


----------



## Dr. Furface (Jan 15, 2007)

fractionMan said:
			
		

> iPhone is teh ghey.


#
Spot on!


----------



## rocketman (Jan 15, 2007)

Well Fraction Man, why should you buy it? There isn't an answer to a subjective question like that. Just don't buy it. There. Bye then.
Now can we talk about the gadget a little more? Thanks.


----------



## editor (Jan 18, 2007)

Here's a great iPhone video


----------



## rocketman (Jan 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Here's a great iPhone video


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2007)

I've never been convinced by 'soft' onscreen keyboards - they're all fucking shit and useless for anything other than the shortest of texts  - so I've always been of the opinion that it's going to take nothing short of a design _miracle_ to make the iPhones any good for my needs (I send a lot of texts and do a lot of writing).

It looks like it's not going to happen.





> ....the touchscreen keyboard.....
> 
> We've all seen it done, but no one's ever seen it done right -- and Steve seems to think it's going to be off the chain. So why is Dvorak, noted tech pundit, and goader of Mac users and iPhone fans, reporting that he's got insider information that the iPhone's keyboard is complete crap and "people are going to return the phone in droves"?
> 
> ...



I think the lack of a keyboard is going to be a catastrophic shortfall on what looks to be a very interesting product. At the HTC launch earlier this week, the reaction in the room was one of sheer disappointment when we realised that it was lumbered with yet another crappy onscreen keyboard.

Can Apple really make the things usable?


----------



## Crispy (Jun 8, 2007)

It's a damned tricky thing to do. There's only a handful of companies that could pull it off, and apple is one of them, but we can only wait (no much longer) and see.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> There's only a handful of companies that could pull it off, and apple is one of them, but we can only wait (no much longer) and see.


I have extreme doubts that they'll come up with anything that's even remotely as usable and as tactile as a proper keyboard. 

I've had virtual keyboards on Palm, Sony and WM5/6 devices and they all sucked the fat one. Big time.

Even my brand spanking new super slick HTC Touch is unusable for anything but the shortest of text entries - and if you've got something as high end and as powerful as the iPhone, I'd imagine you want to do a lot more than just look and point at things on it.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 8, 2007)

Thing is, the touch screen on the iphone is of a qualatively different nature - it's multi-touch and therefore has capabilities we don't know about. Maybe it can sense the gradient in pressure across the face of your finger and be more accurate about your intent? Who knows. I agree with you that a tactile keyboard will always be easier to use, but the iphone may be 'good enough' - I'd be amazed if it wasn't. Jobs wouldn't let it out the door otherwise.


----------



## jæd (Jun 8, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Can Apple really make the things usable?



(1) Dvorak is known to say things to get a reaction...

(2) What happened to actually using products before everyone makes a conclusion. The keyboard might be good. It might be shit. Why not wait and see...?

My personal opinion is that onscreen keyboards depend on the implementation. I've used some fairly shite ones and I've used some ok ones. And I'd rather have a big screen that has a on screen keyboard than have to lug around a set of keys that sometimes hardly get used...


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

It's an interesting one. But Apple's got a record of making things a little more usable in small steps - the multi-touchesque scrollpad on my MacBook P being a good example. One finger and it's a typical dull-old scrollpad moving the cursor around, put two on and you can scroll around the window, rolling pages left, right, up and down.

OK, so it's not exactly a huge improvement, nor a technical wonderment, but it does work very well. So much so that I genuinely hardly bother to plug in a mouse now - it speeds things up so much. Similarly it's so intuitive that I end up trying it on nearly every laptop now as a default.

The iphone's a lot more complex for sure, but I can't believe it'll be awful either.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 8, 2007)

Haha Dvorak loves to fuck off the Apply fanboys!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 8, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> (2) What happened to actually using products before everyone makes a conclusion. The keyboard might be good. It might be shit. Why not wait and see...?



That's a fair point, just last week it was all 'we should be open minded' and wait to actually use the Foleo before judging it. But this week its ok to rush to judgement on the iPhone...


----------



## Crispy (Jun 8, 2007)

HAving read the speculation, and watched the iphone ads, I think the way it works is this:

You push your finger onto the keyboard. Above your finger, a large version of the key you're hitting pops up. If it's not the key you want, you slide your finger over till you have the one you want, then you release your finger.

Sounds odd, but could work I guess.


Once again: SPECULATION SPECULATION!


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> It's an interesting one. But Apple's got a record of making things a little more usable in small steps


...Well, apart from sorting out simple, highly useful things like fitting two ruddy mouse buttons to their laptops!

I don't think the iPhone will be awful at all: I imagine it'll be quite fantastic in some regards, but the lack of a keyboard will certainly keep it off my shopping list, no matter how good it is.

I don't care how pretty the UI looks - if I can't fire off a text quickly and write reasonably long emails on the thing - and use a wide range of software apps tailored to my needs  -  I'll stick to a keyboard device.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> That's a fair point, just last week it was all 'we should be open minded' and wait to actually use the Foleo before judging it. But this week its ok to rush to judgement on the iPhone...


Hold on: my comments relate to _all_ virtual keyboards and I'm not rushing to judge the iPhone at all - only its means of input, based on a media report and my own experiences.

I've never used an iPhone or even seen one, but I've certainly seen and used a lot of virtual keyboards and they have all been awful.


----------



## rocketman (Jun 8, 2007)

It's smooth as silk to use. I'm more concerned how smoothly it will run after an extended period of use. Is it a memory hog at that point?
Also, the Foleo seems likely to offer iPhone support in future, so you can have both worlds, should you want either.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 8, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Hold on: my comments relate to _all_ virtual keyboards and I'm not rushing to judge the iPhone at all - only its means of input, based on a media report and my own experiences.
> 
> I've never used an iPhone or even seen one, but I've certainly seen and used a lot of virtual keyboards and they have all been awful.



I thought the point (made by a few people not just you) was to base judgement on the actual experience of the product not on previous experience or your impressions. 

Personally I've no problem with speculating, jumping the gun first impressions etc, its all part of the fun of geekery!


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2007)

The first reviews are starting to appear:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/0626200...ying_an_iphone_columnists_glenn_fleishman.htm

The writer above is pretty much underwhelmed but this reviewer - who's had the phone for longer - is far more enthusiastic:
http://solution.allthingsd.com/?p=125&ak_action=printable

It looks like there's some really good features on the phone, but this bit is plain crazy: "There’s also no way to cut, copy, or paste text." WTF? That's going to be a real pain as it's something I do every day. There's also no games or MMS or video recording which seems a bit of an odd omission to me. The camera looks good though.

Do any of you reckon that Apple have managed to overhype the phone so much now that anything short of a total revelation is going to seem a disappointment?


----------



## Crispy (Jun 27, 2007)

That's always an issue with Apple though. And tbh, the people doing the most hyping will blinker themseleves from any actual faults with tthe device anyway.


----------



## jæd (Jun 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The writer above is pretty much underwhelmed but this reviewer - who's had the phone for longer - is far more enthusiastic:
> http://solution.allthingsd.com/?p=125&ak_action=printable



I'm not very impressed by a phone review that critisises the phone because its GSM. But then the American Mobile Networks are still stuck in the Dark Ages...




			
				editor said:
			
		

> Do any of you reckon that Apple have managed to overhype the phone so much now that anything short of a total revelation is going to seem a disappointment?



Personally I thinks everyone but Apple hyping the iPhone as some kind of second coming. I'm exepecting there to be tons of reviews all telling me its "lame" because the authors personal favorite feature wasn't included. 

(I've noticed Geeks tend to be the worst reviewers. If they don't have an orgasm with 30s of opening the box the will slate it.)

Not having copy+paste sounds like a problem, but I suppose there's an Apple Reason for not doing this.

So... I'm still in the "Wait-Until-I-Try-It-Before-I-Review-It".


----------



## Structaural (Jun 27, 2007)

There's a new demo video on their website...

I wish I had one - my Nokia-piece-of-platicky-shit-6280 has a broken LCD screen for the second time. The Glass frontage of that iPhone sounds interesting.


----------



## Detroit City (Jun 27, 2007)

AT&T just announced the new rate structure for iPhone in the US.   The cheapest plan will start at $60 US per month.  What a rip off.   This will be the first phone that will require you to purchase the data package as part of your plan.  

Isn't planned obsolescence fun?


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Not having copy+paste sounds like a problem, but I suppose there's an Apple Reason for not doing this.


it really is a bizarre decision. I use cut and paste on my phone every day and it seems such an odd - and dead simple - thing to have missed off.

Mind you, the battery life looks awesome.






			
				jæd said:
			
		

> Personally I thinks everyone but Apple hyping the iPhone as some kind of second coming. I'm exepecting there to be tons of reviews all telling me its "lame" because the authors personal favorite feature wasn't included.


Surely that's a reasonable reaction to Job's immense and unprecedented pre-launch hyperbole? If someone keeps telling you that they're about to sell you the best phone ever, you've every right to express your disappointment if it doesn't come up to expectations.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 27, 2007)

There's the danger too, if they keep over selling this too much wont most people be dissapointed?


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2007)

Here's another review:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/27/technology/circuits/27pogue.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

I didn't realise that the iPhone didn't have a memory card slot, but the web browser looks fantastic.


----------



## jæd (Jun 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Here's another review:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/27/technology/circuits/27pogue.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
> 
> I didn't realise that the iPhone didn't have a memory card slot, but the web browser looks fantastic.






			
				editor said:
			
		

> On the iPhone, you don’t check your voice mail; it checks you. One button press reveals your waiting messages, listed like e-mail. There’s no dialing in, no password — and no sleepy robot intoning, “You...have...twenty...one...messages.”



With my Treo I get a text message/alert detailing missed calls, and whether the person actually left a message... Sounds like a step backward to me...!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Here's another review:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/27/technology/circuits/27pogue.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
> 
> I didn't realise that the iPhone didn't have a memory card slot, but the web browser looks fantastic.



Neither me, although not sure how big an issue that is given the amount of storage is comes with...


----------



## jæd (Jun 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Mind you, the battery life looks awesome.Surely that's a reasonable reaction to Job's immense and unprecedented pre-launch hyperbole? If someone keeps telling you that they're about to sell you the best phone ever, you've every right to express your disappointment if it doesn't come up to expectations.



Thats just Steve Jobs... If he flipped burgers at MacD's he would be telling you that each meal is a gourmet delight...!


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 27, 2007)

Just to let y'all know...I'm off to New York tomorrow for the weekend so I'll be heading over to the Apple Store on 5th Avenue to check it out on Friday launch day. Yay! I'll try and post pics.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jun 28, 2007)

Detroit City said:
			
		

> AT&T just announced the new rate structure for iPhone in the US.   The cheapest plan will start at $60 US per month.  What a rip off.   This will be the first phone that will require you to purchase the data package as part of your plan.



I just got in from the AT&T shop, it looks more like it will be $80/mo for 450 daytime national minutes and the "PDA package".  For my Treo with T-Mobile I pay  about $60 for 600 minutes, but I get stung by US roaming charges outside the Texas area.  I think a Blackberry plan would be more expensive, about $100/mo with AT&T.

So, it's an expensive plan but  there are some pluses, like an international plan that might just save me a lot. (my last bill was $1250 for a month).

I decided not to camp out overnight, I'll probably try and get one next week when the fuss has quietened down a bit.

I will report back


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jun 29, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> I'll probably try and get one next week when the fuss has quietened down a bit.


Isn't that what people were saying about the Wii..?


----------



## dogmatique (Jun 29, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> but I get stung by US roaming charges outside the Texas area.  I think a Blackberry plan would be more expensive, about $100/mo with AT&T.



Christ they take the piss these mobile carriers don't they?  I thought it was bad enough being charged roaming fees for incoming and outgoing calls when in mainland Europe - DESPITE being a customer of the same company in the UK as in say Spain, using the same network.

But an out of State roaming charge for using the same network in the same country?  That really is taking the mickey!


----------



## Crispy (Jun 29, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> Christ they take the piss these mobile carriers don't they?


Can't remember if it's still the case, but US networks used to charge you to receive calls and texts, as well as send them.


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2007)

There seems to be some sort or weird rewriting of history by some awestruck writers: the Guardian was saying how amazing it was that Apple had come up with the idea of threaded SMS messages (It was a Palm idea from _years_ ago), while the BBC waxes lyrical: "The new designs means users simply need to touch an icon on the iPhone's 3.5 inch screen to make a call. If another call comes through, users touch a second icon. A third icon allows them to merge the calls into a three-way conference call."

The Palm has done this for years too.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 29, 2007)

Yeah, but look at that spoddy interface, the black on white text, the lack of gigawatt marketing 

There were hard drive MP3 players before the ipod, too


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Yeah, but look at that spoddy interface, the black on white text, the lack of gigawatt marketing


Oh, you can bolt on the eye candy if you want:






I use this one:





And then there's the matter of the price too....


----------



## jæd (Jun 29, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The Palm has done this for years too.



Completely agree... Personally, I find my Treo's interface the most useable on a phone since my Nokia 3310...  I don't see why Treo don't just issue an update to PalmOs that reskins it with colour gradients, transparent fonts, etc. (Like the DialByPhoto stuff).

Then they could claim that its the greatest thing since sliced bread,


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Completely agree... Personally, I find my Treo's interface the most useable on a phone since my Nokia 3310...  I don't see why Treo don't just issue an update to PalmOs that reskins it with colour gradients, transparent fonts, etc. (Like the DialByPhoto stuff).


That TakephOne application is brilliant, by the way. It's really quick for looking up contacts and you can do all that dial by photo stuff too. Well worth a download.


----------



## jæd (Jun 29, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> That TakephOne application is brilliant, by the way. It's really quick for looking up contacts and you can do all that dial by photo stuff too. Well worth a download.



Will take a look...


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Will take a look...


Make sure you download the blue skin as that's the one that looks the best.

It's a great app.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 29, 2007)

Posting live from the Apple Store 5th Ave...

There's a queue outside for a 6pm launch of the iPhone with Fox News, CBS, NBC vans parked up in place. lol.

Currently 10:40 am here. Don't know if I can be arsed with waiting til 6pm for this to be honest. I'll see how the day goes.


----------



## chio (Jun 29, 2007)

skyscraper101 said:
			
		

> Posting live from the Apple Store 5th Ave...
> 
> There's a queue outside for a 6pm launch of the iPhone with Fox News, CBS, NBC vans parked up in place. lol.
> 
> Currently 10:40 am here. Don't know if I can be arsed with waiting til 6pm for this to be honest. I'll see how the day goes.



If I was all the way in New York, the last thing I'd be doing is queueing at the Apple shop


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm not queueing, I'm er, well..posting on Urban


----------



## dogmatique (Jun 29, 2007)

Wouldn't you be quicker queuing at one of the many AT&T stores?

Doesn't have quite the same cachet though, does it?


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2007)

There's no way on God's earth I'd queue for _any_ electronic gizmo, especially if I was on holiday in NY.
Who wants to stand in a line with sad fanboys?


----------



## Firky (Jun 29, 2007)

skyscraper101 said:
			
		

> Posting live from the Apple Store 5th Ave...
> 
> There's a queue outside for a 6pm launch of the iPhone with Fox News, CBS, NBC vans parked up in place. lol.
> 
> Currently 10:40 am here. Don't know if I can be arsed with waiting til 6pm for this to be honest. I'll see how the day goes.



mentalist.


----------



## chio (Jun 29, 2007)

The thing is, who in the real world is arsed about this iPhone? I mentioned it at work and no one but me had heard of it, but if you read websites like Digg you'd think it was the second coming or something


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 29, 2007)

Plenty of non gadget freak/techy people I know have asked about it, the look and interface is a real pull by the look of it...I'm beginning to think that Apple has a real success on its hands with it.


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Plenty of non gadget freak/techy people I know have asked about it, the look and interface is a real pull by the look of it...I'm beginning to think that Apple has a real success on its hands with it.


Some people are going to love it for sure, but I'd never let myself be forced into signing a two year deal for _any_ phone.


----------



## cybershot (Jun 29, 2007)

The novelty factor will wear off. There's already plenty of windows phones that do similair sort of things but don't look as pretty. 

As long as i can text and call people and it has a decent camera (which the iphone doesn't) I couldn't give a toss what else it can do. Sony Ericsson all the way.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 29, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Some people are going to love it for sure, but I'd never let myself be forced into signing a two year deal for _any_ phone.



I've never heard of any UK network demanding a 24 month contract yet, 18 month sure but 24? That'd be a first afaik...


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I've never heard of any UK network demanding a 24 month contract yet, 18 month sure but 24? That'd be a first afaik...


That'll be because there's been no UK deals announced yet, but that's what's going down in the States.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 29, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> That'll be because there's been no UK deals announced yet, but that's what's going down in the States.



Oh right but I talking about the UK with Chio...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 30, 2007)

Not sure why this is interesting but the user manual is online: http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/iPhone_User_Guide.pdf


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jun 30, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I've never heard of any UK network demanding a 24 month contract yet, 18 month sure but 24? That'd be a first afaik...



it's typical here, then they give you a big discount to upgrade the phone.

I'm tempted to drive past my local AT&T just to see how much of a zoo it is


----------



## jæd (Jun 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Some people are going to love it for sure, but I'd never let myself be forced into signing a two year deal for _any_ phone.



The two years is the contract time... I'm guessing you could swap the sim card for another (unless the iPhone is sim-locked). If were to downgrade  from my Treo I'd wait a bit until they are selling unlocked versions from the Apple store...


----------



## jæd (Jun 30, 2007)

ade said:
			
		

> There's already plenty of windows phones that do similair sort of things but don't look as pretty.



There's a Windows phone with same interface + software capabilities...? (ie a half decent browser...) And a windows phone that doesn't crash + burn. And has a decent battery life... Let us know when you find it...!


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> ade said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## untethered (Jun 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The battery life looks great with the iPhone but I'd be deeply troubled by the prospect of having to send off the entire phone for a battery replacement at an unspecified cost later.
> 
> The lack of a user replaceable battery would be quite a major drawback for me (being able to swap batteries kept me connected at Glasto).



Apple are completely customer-hostile when it comes to things like that.

Apparently, the rationale is that they don't have to spoil the purity of the design by including a customer-accessible battery compartment. I'd say that if they can't manage it adequately, they're pretty poor designers.

Being able to swap batteries is a serious requirement.


----------



## untethered (Jun 30, 2007)

On which note (without digressing too far), the battery cover on my 2000-vintage Fujifilm MX-1700 camera is aluminium, whereas the one on my new top-of-the-range Canon Powershot G7 is plastic. Even worse there, as the SD card is in the same compartment.

Yes, it's all metal, apart from the vulnerable moving parts.


----------



## jæd (Jun 30, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> Apple are completely customer-hostile when it comes to things like that.
> 
> Apparently, the rationale is that they don't have to spoil the purity of the design by including a customer-accessible battery compartment. I'd say that if they can't manage it adequately, they're pretty poor designers.
> 
> Being able to swap batteries is a serious requirement.



Yawn. The battery on the iPod is user replaceable, if with a little difficulty. I'd guess the same on the iPhone. The way some people go-on about it you'd think it was welded shut...


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> I'd guess the same on the iPhone. The way some people go-on about it you'd think it was welded shut...


You're wrong. 

Removing an iPhone battery is a very fiddly business and there's no way on earth I'd attempt it myself if I was on the road. Not only would I fuck up my warranty, but there's a good chance I could fuck up the entire phone - and that's assuming I've remembered to bring along the mini toolkit needed for the job.

And then there's the tricky deal of finding a replacement battery in the first place.

Dismantling an iPhone:
http://stream.ifixit.com/


----------



## Pie 1 (Jun 30, 2007)

The 2 year lock in aside, those AT&T plans aren't that bad are they?

Coverts to £29.90 per month for the 450 mins plan. Seems relitively reasonable.


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> The 2 year lock in aside, those AT&T plans aren't that bad are they?
> 
> Coverts to £29.90 per month for the 450 mins plan. Seems relitively reasonable.


If you're signing up for a two year contract, you should expect a bloody good deal!

There's no way I'd sign up for such a long deal: I tend to trash my phones after a year or so and I'd imagine the potential for braking something as complex as an iPhone would be higher than most.

Plus who wants to be stuck with an old phone?


----------



## rocketman (Jun 30, 2007)

Re: Batteries
Thing is, it seems to use an iPod dock connector and as such I reckon there is a chance you'll be able to use third party battery packs to extend battery life when posting on urban from Pilton using an iPhone.

Re: Applications
Word here is that a developer SDK IS in development, just not yet complete.

Re: Exchange
Allegedly, Apple will reveal something on support for Exchange in the coming weeks.

What's critical is that this device can be upgraded by software updates, as it runs a version of OS X. As such, it's well worth identifying what is lacking, and making a racket - of you look at what Apple have quietly been doing recently, you'll see they have been quietly addressing these concerns.

At the end of the day, I think Apple's foray into this market will be really good for mobile phone users, as other companies will attempt to meet user needs for usable interfaces and accessible applications.

Everyone should benefit, hopefully


----------



## ivebeenhigh (Jun 30, 2007)

if nothing else as with the ipod, Apple are raising the bar for what users should expect.  this can only be a good thing for everyone.


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

ivebeenhigh said:
			
		

> if nothing else as with the ipod, Apple are raing the bar for what users should expect.  this can only be a good thing for everyone.


Oh, I reckon the iPhone will give the industry a much needed kick up the arse. With luck, it'll make Microsoft reconsider their fucking awful Mobile interface in double quick time too.


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Re: Batteries
> Thing is, it seems to use an iPod dock connector and as such I reckon there is a chance you'll be able to use third party battery packs to extend battery life when posting on urban from Pilton using an iPhone.


I'm sure that such packs will become available, but there're nowhere near as pocketable as a replaceable battery.

I brought along a replacement Treo battery at Glasto and the price of that worked out cheaper than the pile of PP3 batteries that were swallowed up by the external charger I'd also brought along.

It's a real shame that the battery on the iPhone isn't user-replaceable. Being forced to send off the entire phone for a replacement when it finally conks out ain't the greatest of ideas, IMO. I'd hate to have send off my Treo. And how long is it going to take? And how much will it cost?


----------



## rocketman (Jun 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Oh, I reckon the iPhone will give the industry a much needed kick up the arse. With luck, it'll make Microsoft reconsider their fucking awful Mobile interface in double quick time too.



What's also good is that in the mobile space there's such a multiplicity of operating systems, it's a much more vibrant market, and that's a good thing because diversity of platforms makes for a more secure ecosystem, after all, malware on Windows is partially such a problem because Windows is so very dominant (as a result of Microsoft's previous monopolistic business practices), if the desktop had evolved in the same way as the mobile, then we'd have more OS's and more diversity, and, some claim, less viruses and malware.


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

Talking of Glasto:
http://www.urban75.org/tech/glastonbury-tech.html


----------



## untethered (Jun 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> It's a real shame that the battery on the iPhone isn't user-replaceable. Being forced to send off the entire phone for a replacement when it finally conks out ain't the greatest of ideas, IMO. I'd hate to have send off my Treo. And how long is it going to take? And how much will it cost?



Indeed. Being deprived of your phone for say, one week every two years, is hardly an attractive proposition.

More's the point, it's creating a problem that's already been solved. If Apple built houses, you'd have to get an approved engineer in to change the light bulbs.


----------



## rocketman (Jun 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> It's a real shame that the battery on the iPhone isn't user-replaceable. Being forced to send off the entire phone for a replacement when it finally conks out ain't the greatest of ideas, IMO. I'd hate to have send off my Treo.



Yeah, I think it is a shame - I can see why it is, in order to produce a lovely looking product, but it makes such sense to make batteries user replacable.

Sadly, I don't think I'll ever be able to convince Apple of this.

And if you think about the US market - most US consumers are such sheep, they actually like to send their gadgets to be upgraded by head teacher.

Then again - I'm not certain the 'return in two years' will simply end up meaning users get a new battery - in two years time, I bet they just get given a new phone, on some trade-in incentive.

It is a sticky point, though, I agree


----------



## rocketman (Jun 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Talking of Glasto:
> http://www.urban75.org/tech/glastonbury-tech.html



Liked that one. Interesting.


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Liked that one. Interesting.


Cheers.

I reckon that trip was one of the places where Palm's Foleo might have come in handy.


----------



## rocketman (Jun 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Cheers.
> 
> I reckon that trip was one of the places where Palm's Foleo might have come in handy.



Yeah - that I think is what Palm is trying to say. Interestingly, Palm also murmured that this device can be extended to work with other mobiles, such as (brief return to topic) iPhone.

So - Treo or iPhone plus a Foleo and I think that's perfect outdoor solution, also good for extended journies of any kind, as light and relatively cheap (compared to full weight laptop).

Saying that, there's gonna be a new breed of ultraportables soon - flash memory HDs, fast, blah-blah, but these won't really be perfect for glastonburger journos until flash memory prices fall, or so I fear.


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> So - Treo or iPhone plus a Foleo and I think that's perfect outdoor solution, also good for extended journies of any kind, as light and relatively cheap (compared to full weight laptop).


(apols for off topic excursion)

I'd be worried about taking a full laptop to somewhere like Glasto because it would be full of my personal stuff, so the Foleo looks to be a great companion to the Treo (or indeed, iPhone). 

I guess it depends on how much third party support materialises, but I can now definitely see the point of a simple, fast, light laptop-like device with a great battery life and true instant on.


----------



## rocketman (Jun 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> (apols for off topic excursion)
> 
> I'd be worried about taking a full laptop to somewhere like Glasto because it would be full of my personal stuff, so the Foleo looks to be a great companion to the Treo (or indeed, iPhone).
> 
> I guess it depends on how much third party support materialises, but I can now definitely see the point of a simple, fast, light laptop-like device with a great battery life and true instant on.



Yeah. We took an old (five years I think) one along, but it was useless - the battery had lost charge and it was so sloooooow. Considering hunting down a relatively younger spare for these situations, as we're 'doing' lots of these events this summer. 

Writing with a Treo seems possible, but it's tools for photo editing in the field we really need.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 30, 2007)

I've just equipped my trusty mobilpro with a wireless card, but getting the driver on there without a windows computer to sync with is proving... interesting 
will report.


----------



## Structaural (Jun 30, 2007)

Here's how you change the battery without the toolkit:

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2007/06/watch-an-iphone.html


----------



## Gromit (Jun 30, 2007)

From the Beeb:


> The handset has also been criticised because it does not use the 3G network, does not support instant messaging or voice-activated dialling and does not let people choose ringtones beyond the 25 pre-installed on it.



I won't be buying one. I think I'll wait until they address the above first.
I presume the lack of ringtones is just to establish the brand the same way Nokia did with their recognisable ring tone. Then later there will be loads (at cost) off iTunes (only) or something.


----------



## rocketman (Jun 30, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> I presume the lack of ringtones is just to establish the brand the same way Nokia did with their recognisable ring tone. Then later there will be loads (at cost) off iTunes (only) or something.



Yeah I think the European iPhone will have 3G, as Edge isn't as widely deployed here, also JObs has touched upon it. Word is that a ringtone service will arrive in iTunes, you'll be able to select any 30-second sample from any iTunes song, and yes, it'll cost you 79p,


----------



## Dandred (Jun 30, 2007)

I can't believe that some retards have wasted 3 days of their lives to queue for  a phone


----------



## Crispy (Jun 30, 2007)

from some digging around in the itunes resource folder, it looks like "turn any track into a ringtone" is coming soon. Instant messaging in this case means MSN or AOL style chat, not SMS. And does anyone ever actually use voice dialling?


----------



## Crispy (Jun 30, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> you'll be able to select any 30-second sample from any iTunes song, and yes, it'll cost you 79p,


Surely only if you have to buy the track off itunes store first. home-ripped should be free.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 30, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> from some digging around in the itunes resource folder, it looks like "turn any track into a ringtone" is coming soon. Instant messaging in this case means MSN or AOL style chat, not SMS. And does anyone ever actually use voice dialling?



Apple are idiots, why can't they just allow you to use any mp3 on your phone as a ring tone as other phones do?  

Regarding voice dialing, very good point. I've never used it and only ever known one person to, and even then only rarely...not sure why it's such a selling point tbh.


----------



## WWWeed (Jun 30, 2007)

If the page Toms hardware is to be believed the 1st generation Iphone is the biggest most expensive bit of crap this decade (http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/2007/06/29/learning_to_deal_downsides_of_3000usd_iphone/)

The total cost of the handset is a joke for what it is. $2000-$3000 for a handset is WAY TOO MUCH! The its getting sold is with a $500 charge for the phone and then some stupid monthly tariff to recoup the other $2000. And that will be before the phone networks even see a profit!

it seems to be a 'beta' device, Apple seem to be planning on releasing the first generation of it with a load of features missing:


> For instance, we already know the generation one phone doesn’t support Flash, doesn’t play games, won’t convert songs to ringtones, doesn’t support instant messaging, has limited email support, and won’t let you connect directly to Apple’s iTunes Music Store (you have to go through a PC) - all of which are likely desired by many of the potential users. And the promised YouTube coverage is apparently not as good as advertised either right now.



The appaling battrey life, I know these devices suck up a sheadload of power but less than a nights battrey life just isnt pratical! Also the fact its only has an estimated 300 charge cycle life is just plain discusting!

Put it like this I'd rather have a windows mobile or even a symbian device than an 1st gen Iphone..............


----------



## WWWeed (Jun 30, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Apple are idiots, why can't they just allow you to use any mp3 on your phone as a ring tone as other phones do?


beacuse mp3s are what the pirates use! They'd much rather we use a proprietary format that will only realy work well with there software and devices.

Keeps you in there pocket if you get me drift
copy and paste from wiki:


> One of the contentious issues surrounding the use of proprietary formats is that of ownership. If the information is stored in a way which the user's software provider tries to keep secret, the user may own the information, but have no way to retrieve it except by using their software. If the user can't retrieve it but the software manufacturer can - they have practical control of the user's information. The fact that the user depends on a piece of software to retrieve the information stored in his/her proprietary format files gives almost guaranteed sales for future releases of that software, and is the basis for the vendor lock-in concept.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 30, 2007)

AAC is an open format that anyone can use, just like MP3. There are several portable players that will play AAC and winamp, media player etc. can all play them. It's technically superior to MP3 as well.

Not that I use it, as MP3 is more widely supported.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 30, 2007)

Treo fan gets excited about the iPhone:

http://www.tunjiafonja.com/tunjis_weblog/2007/06/initial-thought.html


----------



## chio (Jun 30, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Treo fan gets excited about the iPhone:
> 
> http://www.tunjiafonja.com/tunjis_weblog/2007/06/initial-thought.html



Erudite and insightful commentary there!


----------



## xenon (Jun 30, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> from some digging around in the itunes resource folder, it looks like "turn any track into a ringtone" is coming soon. Instant messaging in this case means MSN or AOL style chat, not SMS. And does anyone ever actually use voice dialling?



This phone sounds rubbish. Not G3. You can already use any track as a ringtone if your phone can play MP3's. And voice dialing. I use it all the time.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 30, 2007)

It'll be 3G in europe.


----------



## xenon (Jun 30, 2007)

Not according to tech corrospondent on the radio the other day. Haven't read up on it though, so may be wrong.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jun 30, 2007)

is this the first post from an iPhone? The keyboard works as least as well as my treo


----------



## Crispy (Jun 30, 2007)

I think we're going to find out on Monday, if "Internet Rumours" are to be believed.


----------



## chio (Jun 30, 2007)

I can see these things getting really filthy really quickly. It's all well and good on the adverts with the perfectly manicured fingers floating across the screen selecting stuff, but in real life I can't help but wonder how many seconds it'll take before the lovely shiny screen is a smeared mess of streaky fingerprints...


----------



## 43mhz (Jun 30, 2007)

The innards... battery welded to board apparently


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jun 30, 2007)

well, I bought one, it's cute.  I posted from the shop, now I'm about to set up my account.  

The browser is good.  I could never have posted from my ancient Treo 600.  The touch screen is very, very good, at least as good as the Treo. The Guardian website looked good too.  the hotlinks all worked and the keypad popped up everytime I needed to enter text.

As far as getting dirty, it is very smooth so a quick wipe is all it needs (the Treo screen is difficuly to clean in the corners and is now pock marked from stylus use).  I did buy a case, but you need to do that for just about any phone except the flips.

I have never chatted with the phone anyway, so no loss there.  

This will be interesting.  I suspect I only used a small part of my Treo's capability so I probably wouldn't even notice the lack of capability the editor's worried about, I just want email, web and to make calls now and again.

we will see about battery life.  That's what has killed my 3 1/2 year old Treo, I suspect I won't get that long, rather like my first iPod.

Anyway, I will have a plan and report back


----------



## jæd (Jun 30, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> well, I bought one, it's cute.  I posted from the shop, now I'm about to set up my account.



Good to actually here from someone who's actually bought one...!


----------



## jæd (Jun 30, 2007)

43mhz said:
			
		

> The innards... battery welded to board apparently



Hmmm... I can imagine the howls of outrage already...


----------



## jæd (Jun 30, 2007)

WWWeed said:
			
		

> it seems to be a 'beta' device, Apple seem to be planning on releasing the first generation of it with a load of features missing:



Since when did a mobile phone have to do that laundry list of things to be a mobile phone...?  And do you know a beta is, or are going to have that discussion again...?




			
				TomsHardware said:
			
		

> The reason a generation 2 or 3 product is generally better than a generation one is you can cost reduce future generations based on technical and manufacturing scale advantages, and you can factor in actual customer feedback.



No...? Really...?


----------



## Gromit (Jun 30, 2007)

43mhz said:
			
		

> The innards... battery welded to board apparently



So you can't carry a spare for when you've run the battery down doing everything but make a call. 

Not clever. 

I have enough trouble keeping enough charge for calls on my phone now and I only use it for txts. For something like an iPhone I'd want the same set up i have now with my PsP i.e. a spare battery that I can easily swap over.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 30, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> The keyboard works as least as well as my treo



Really?


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jun 30, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Really?



yes, I was impressed after reading the sceptics here.  The buttons seem small but some how it seems to guess the one you were going for and it seemed to auto correct well.

the problem at the moment is I can't get the bloody thing to be recognized by iTunes, which is how you register.  If it's because I have a non-intel mac with an older version OS10 I'll be very angry.  "All Apple technical support representatives are currently busy, please wait for the next available representative...."


----------



## jæd (Jun 30, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> the problem at the moment is I can't get the bloody thing to be recognized by iTunes, which is how you register.  If it's because I have a non-intel mac with an older version OS10 I'll be very angry.  "All Apple technical support representatives are currently busy, please wait for the next available representative...."



Looks like you need Mac OS X 10.4.10 or later required for iPhone

http://www.apple.com/itunes/download/


----------



## Crispy (Jun 30, 2007)

Yeah, Tiger only. If you don't have the latest updates, that might help.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jun 30, 2007)

yes, at a very reasonable $129....bastards


----------



## jæd (Jun 30, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> yes, at a very reasonable $129....bastards



Have you tried your friendly neighbourhood bit-torrent site...?


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> This will be interesting.  I suspect I only used a small part of my Treo's capability so I probably wouldn't even notice the lack of capability the editor's worried about, I just want email, web and to make calls now and again.


Blimey. You've sure just paid out a whole load of cash to do those basic things - and tied yourself to a two year deal in the process. You must have money to burn!


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> yes, at a very reasonable $129....bastards


Yowch. Now that's a very unpleasant sting.


----------



## dada (Jun 30, 2007)

i must say i didn't have my hopes up as the online demo was too slick to believe.  played with the real thing now, wow, the iphone is such a sweet thing. text input was surprisingly effective.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Yowch. Now that's a very unpleasant sting.


it does say on the box OSX 10.4 and above 
the drawback of apple releasing new versions of its OS more often I guess


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

Silly buggers at Apple have also recessed the headphone socket so many third party headphones won't work with the iPhone.

Still, at least they haven't pissed about with the stooopid 2.5mm socket that blights the Treo.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 30, 2007)

that's so stupid!
the ipod has a flush socket - they should know how to do this


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

Funnily enough, the Zune headphones_ do_ fit!

http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/30/iphone-doesnt-work-with-most-3rd-party-headphones/


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jun 30, 2007)

well, I'm not so impressed by apple any more.  I had to drive to my local apple store, battle through the crowds, but OSx install it....no better....install updates.....now it works, took about an hour.  Once that was done the registration is typically apple smooth.

Anyway, it's working now.  It is very impressive.  For my .mac email account it is a great improvement on the Treo.  Messages don't get truncated and the attachments (.pdf and .jpg) open nicely inside the message.

For internet the screen resolution is very good.  You see the whole web page and if you know where the hotlink you're after is you seem to get it every time (like "browse the boards"....no zooming necessary).  What I want to do soon is try stuff like on-line check-in for flights.  That was not practical on the Treo

I'm impressed with the map function, I'd pulled up a street map of Rio in a couple of minutes, and you can do the satellite thing.  The weather button is nice too, but I'm not sure if i'll ever use it.

I still like the touch screen.  I liked the tactile Palm keyboard..  This one is different but very very good.

Overall, I love it.  No regrets in seeing the Palm (600) go.  But then, as Mike says, it appears I have money to burn and just wanted a fairly simple device anyway.  We don't have 3G in the US, or in Latin America where I send a lot of time so I won't miss your fancy European connection speeds.


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> it is a great improvement on the Treo.


I should hope so seeing as your Treo is getting on for four years old and can be picked up for a tiny fraction of the price of the iPhone!


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jun 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Silly buggers at Apple have also recessed the headphone socket so many third party headphones won't work with the iPhone.



my nice new Bose ones don't fit, well they will when I've taken a file to them....bugger

the joys of being an early adopter


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jun 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I should hope so seeing as your Treo is getting on for four years old and can be picked up for a tiny fraction of the price of the iPhone!



but a new 680, or a natty blackberry isn't that much cheaper than the iPone, I would be looking at $350 and up for any pda phone


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> but a new 680, or a natty blackberry isn't that much cheaper than the iPone, I would be looking at $350 and up for any pda phone


Apart from the fact that a 680 is way better than a 600, you could still pick one up much cheaper than a iPhone and you wouldn't be tied to one (none too popular) network and a looong two year contract.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 30, 2007)

Yeah, but you're missing out the $200 value, "ooooooh, really fucking shiny thing!" factor


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Yeah, but you're missing out the $200 value, "ooooooh, really fucking shiny thing!" factor


Well obviously. And then there's all those priceless "oohs" and "aaahs!" as you marvel at the eye candy.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jun 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Apart from the fact that a 680 is way better than a 600, you could still pick one up much cheaper than a iPhone and you wouldn't be tied to one (none too popular) network and a looong two year contract.


 
Palm want $399 for an unlocked 680.  I know there's always ebay.  Just for information it's $175 for early cancellation.  A job offer from another country and they say they will waive that and unlock the phone.

This is not a rational purchase.  It's a fashion statement, I guess, but hopefully a fairly functional one.  It's not like a diamond encrusted phone

The palm 600 was a product that did the job but in some ways was poorly designed, the sort of thing Apple seem to get over on launch, not wait till the 650 comes out.  I needed to buy a new phone anyway and I'd been holding off till the iPhone came out so it's not a completely frivellous purchase.

Just received my first call from my b/f who's in Port Gentil  

Added the contact and the phone thoughfully was asked to check if it was OK to synch as I'd changed more than 5% of my contacts....


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> Palm want $399 for an unlocked 680.  I know there's always ebay.


Come on: if you're comparing prices you've got to compare like with like and look at contract phone prices - how much do you think an unlocked iPhone would cost?!!! 

Answer: a shitload more than an unlocked 680!


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jul 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Come on: if you're comparing prices you've got to compare like with like and look at contract phone prices - how much do you think an unlocked iPhone would cost?!!!
> 
> Answer: a shitload more than an unlocked 680!



I just meant to buy anything unlocked here ties you into a 2 year contract.  $199 for the 680 and 2 years.  

I'm not claiming that the iPod is value for money, but then Mac never have been.  Is it worth the extra?  Time will tell but it's an impressive device, a lot of the perceived problems aren't there.  For me the extra cash isn't that much of an issue.  I'm past drinking mild cos it's a penny a pint cheaper (those were the days).  The pricing's probably part of Steve Job's genious, just like the iPod, maybe not the best, certainly not the cheapest, but most people pay the extra for the cool design and ease of use, together with the whole hype of a mac launch.

I think I've been brainwashed by some sort of rays from my iMac....or the radiation of my various iPods.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> I just meant to buy anything unlocked here ties you into a 2 year contract.  $199 for the 680 and 2 years.


It was free for a while but you can still buy it for $40 (albeit with a 2yr deal):
http://mytreo.net/archives/2006/12/free-treo-680.html

But hey! If you're happy with the iPhone and can afford the wads of cash for the eye candy... enjoy!


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

How's your phone quality?

This site was really unhappy but a restart improved things:


> The kicker, however, is the call audio quality. It is bad. Really bad. We'll have to test it out tomorrow in a stronger signal area, but so far it would rate with some of the worst phones I have tested in the past two years when it comes to the call audio quality heard by the iPhone user. It is too early to say if this is a global problem with the device or just with our unit, but there could be trouble brewing for Apple, to say the least.
> 
> [It seems that the audio problem was temporary. A few hours and a restart, while trying to get the WiFi to work, seems to have improved the audio quality greatly. A restart after activation appears to be in order for the iPhone in general. -editor]
> 
> http://www.mobileburn.com/gallery.jsp?Page=2&Id=3519


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 1, 2007)

Hehe treo lover versus iphone lover, sign of things to come!


----------



## jæd (Jul 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> But hey! If you're happy with the iPhone and can afford the wads of cash for the eye candy... enjoy!



Perhaps people just want a phone that looks nice and works out of the box... Just a thought, like...? The Treo is nice but its started to look a bit dated-wise with the default interface...


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Perhaps people just want a phone that looks nice and works out of the box...


I don't think I've ever had a phone that _hasn't_ looked nice (to my eyes) and worked "out of the box," to be honest.


----------



## krow (Jul 1, 2007)

If you don't like the look of the iPhone you can just download new software, it's like Winamp.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 1, 2007)

A hands on vid with it: http://www.itechnews.net/2007/07/01/apple-iphone-hands-on-video-2/


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

Engadget's ridiculously over the top, endless stream of fucking iPhone 'news' is really starting to get on my tits now.

Yes, it's a beautiful new phone. Yes, it 's an important new development in phone aesthetics. Yes, it looks lovely. Yes, the interface is a treat. But it barely does anything that hasn't been done before, it can't even manage basics like video, cut and paste and picture messaging and there's already lots of phones out there that can do a damn sight more, albeit with a little less style.

The iPhone is definitely worth talking about, but just about every fucking story on Engadget is about the thing right now and it's not _that_ important or revolutionary.






Edit to add: how sad are these people applauding someone because he's _bought a fucking phone?!!_





"Yes! I am Teh Warrior for I have successfully purchased a phone."


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 1, 2007)

Yeah I know but it aint gonna stop because that's what gets the traffic right now...


----------



## hendo (Jul 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> "Yes! I am Teh Warrior for I have successfully purchased a phone."



Don't interrupt them or they'll invade another country. 

It's just the glassy eyed mania that the apple cult provokes in the weak minded.

I'm being unfair actually, I might buy one when it comes here.

But i won't hold it up in the street, or anything. 

Oh no.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 1, 2007)

In some ways it's not that odd, you see similar excitement at a games console launch...


----------



## rocketman (Jul 1, 2007)

If I'm understanding this thread correctly, does the emerging consensus seem to be that iPhone is SmartPhone Lite - a sophisticated gadget at a premium price that will give most ordinary users access to some pretty cool features, while still leaving plenty of space for (perhaps) more sophisticated devices for so-called advanced users? So does this consensus (if I'm right about its existence) bear up arguments from the likes of Nokia and Palm that iPhone's introduction will make for more interest in advanced devices, and perhaps raise consumer expectation of what they expect from a phone?

Is that fair?


----------



## WWWeed (Jul 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I don't think I've ever had a phone that _hasn't_ looked nice (to my eyes) and worked "out of the box," to be honest.


innit its what nokia, samsung, Sony erricson,ect have all been doing for years!


----------



## jæd (Jul 1, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> If I'm understanding this thread correctly, does the emerging consensus seem to be that iPhone is SmartPhone Lite - a sophisticated gadget at a premium price that will give most ordinary users access to some pretty cool features, while still leaving plenty of space for (perhaps) more sophisticated devices for so-called advanced users? So does this consensus (if I'm right about its existence) bear up arguments from the likes of Nokia and Palm that iPhone's introduction will make for more interest in advanced devices, and perhaps raise consumer expectation of what they expect from a phone?
> 
> Is that fair?



That, and its another thing that winds the Editor up...!


----------



## jæd (Jul 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Engadget's ridiculously over the top, endless stream of fucking iPhone 'news' is really starting to get on my tits now.



Then read a different (and better website) for gadget news...


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Then read a different (and better website) for gadget news...


Which is?


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> That, and its another thing that winds the Editor up...!


Why should I be wound up?  

And why are you trying to make it personal?


----------



## jæd (Jul 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Why should I be wound up?
> 
> And why are you trying to make it personal?



I'm not... You're the one who's posting up stuff like:

"Engadget's ridiculously over the top, endless stream of fucking iPhone 'news' is really starting to get on my tits now."

To me the iPhone is yet another interesting product to come out of Apple. I don't see a use for it with myself, although I appreciate the design and the time it must of taken to make a fairly attractive and (apperantly) easy to use smart-phone.

Its not for me, and I guess its not for the majority of geeks who have smart-phones already. It's an eay-to-use smart-phone for consumers...

Dunno about you, but when stuff starts "getting on my tits" I try to avoid it... So, by posting up links to the iPhone it looks like you're getting yourself wound-up over nothing...! 

Endless criticism over minor-points by someone hasn't directly used the gadget and doesn't intend to use the phone does get a bit tedious...


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> I'm not... You're the one who's posting up stuff like:
> 
> "Engadget's ridiculously over the top, endless stream of fucking iPhone 'news' is really starting to get on my tits now."


That's an on-topic comment about the current media coverage of the iPhone, and a valid observation about the unprecedented hype. Even some Engadget regulars are complaining about the amount of coverage.

Your off-topic comment was, however, pointlessly personal, provocative and factually inaccurate. I haven't been "wound up" at any point in this thread.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> That's an on-topic comment about the current media coverage of the iPhone, and a valid observation about the unprecedented hype. Even some Engadget regulars are complaining about the amount of coverage.
> 
> Your off-topic comment was, however, pointlessly personal, provocative and factually inaccurate. I haven't been "wound up" at any point in this thread.



Have to agree that with the sheer volume of iPhone stuff flying around at the moment it is becoming increasingly difficult to locate, explore or report on non-iphone IT stories. It's like a deluge, it is just a little, erm, over-enthusiastic.


----------



## jæd (Jul 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Your off-topic comment was, however, pointlessly personal, provocative and factually inaccurate. I haven't been "wound up" at any point in this thread.



Up to you, but if something "gets on my tits" I'm usually on the way to wind-up city...!


----------



## jæd (Jul 1, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Have to agree that with the sheer volume of iPhone stuff flying around at the moment it is becoming increasingly difficult to locate, explore or report on non-iphone IT stories. It's like a deluge, it is just a little, erm, over-enthusiastic.



A large company has produced an innovative phone thats been anticipated for months... In a week the whole thing will blow over. In the meantime, you use the negative google search like "-iphone mobile phone news" to get news about mobile phones which doesn't mention the iPhone...


----------



## rocketman (Jul 1, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> A large company has produced an innovative phone thats been anticipated for months... In a week the whole thing will blow over. In the meantime, you use the negative google search like "-iphone mobile phone news" to get news about mobile phones which doesn't mention the iPhone...



Well that's true too, but this is relevant to the point
http://feeds.pcworld.com/~r/pcworld/latestnews/~3/129299295/article.html
(She's alright Elizabeth, at times).


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> A large company has produced an innovative phone thats been anticipated for months... In a week the whole thing will blow over. In the meantime, you use the negative google search like "-iphone mobile phone news" to get news about mobile phones which doesn't mention the iPhone...


I've no idea why you think the truly unprecedented hype surrounding the iPhone isn't worthy of discussion on a thread about the, err, iPhone here, but there you go.

There's never been a launch like it, and I'm interested in observing and - yes! - _commenting_ on what's going on because it's a fascinating topic.


----------



## Gromit (Jul 1, 2007)

We did the same with the PS3 hype recently too. That was overboard too.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 1, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> We did the same with the PS3 hype recently too. That was overboard too.



PS3 hype was major, but I don't think it came close to iPhone.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the bloggers in the US with iPhones think in a few weeks time, when the first gasp enthusiasm has died down.

Don't get me wrong - I do think this device will raise the bar in many ways, and it's design is pure Ive - lovely and usable - but how good is it, really?

It's going to be interesting to see that answer emerge on the basis of actual use.


----------



## jæd (Jul 1, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> PS3 hype was major, but I don't think it came close to iPhone.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing what the bloggers in the US with iPhones think in a few weeks time, when the first gasp enthusiasm has died down.
> 
> ...



Yep... That and what the proposed SDK can allow the iPhone to do...!


----------



## rocketman (Jul 1, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Yep... That and what the proposed SDK can allow the iPhone to do...!



Yeah. I'm hearing an SDK is in development, but don't anticipate that in double quick time (Leopard takes priority - unless it's part of Leopard's dev tools, which it could easily be). 

Also hearing Exchange support in coming weeks.


----------



## jæd (Jul 1, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Well that's true too, but this is relevant to the point
> http://feeds.pcworld.com/~r/pcworld/latestnews/~3/129299295/article.html
> (She's alright Elizabeth, at times).



Personally I find Ars Technicana good for news... Mostly because they look at things in-depth to technical level, unlike the majority of the IT press... (And yes, there is an iPhone story, but actually seems quite objective...)


----------



## Gromit (Jul 1, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> PS3 hype was major, but I don't think it came close to iPhone.



I haven't heard any stories about iPhone stores giving away free HD TVs and taxis home.

I think the Sony hype was bigger but iPhones is coming close.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 1, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Personally I find Ars Technicana good for news... Mostly because they look at things in-depth to technical level, unlike the majority of the IT press... (And yes, there is an iPhone story, but actually seems quite objective...)


Plus they have a great strapline:

serving the technologist for 8x10^-2 centuries


----------



## rocketman (Jul 1, 2007)

Ars Technica manage to field some of the best analysis going, frankly. They have great technical writers, and allow those writers the chance to focus on one article for a week, if required, rather than churning out huge amounts.

The fact Sony gave away HDTVs and such-like sums up why the iPhone hype is so much larger - all hype, no bribe. But I don't see it as that important which hype was/is bigger, not really, main thing is there's a lot of hype.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong - I do think this device will raise the bar in many ways, and it's design is pure Ive - lovely and usable - but how good is it, really?
> 
> It's going to be interesting to see that answer emerge on the basis of actual use.


I reckon that the iPhone is going to deliver in a lot of departments, but some of the more tech-savvy types may get frustrated by the current lack of software functionality.

If you're coming from, say, a Treo, then you're still going to be wowed by the swish interface, beautiful finish and lovely aesthetics, but I fancy some advanced users may find their love affair being a tad blighted when they find it can't do anywhere near as many things as their last phone.

Of course, things will improve as more software becomes available.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

Interestingly, Ars technica is saying that despite all the hype there's still "giant piles of iPhones left" on the shelves, which is going to make some of the eBay floggers look a bit silly.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070630-iphones-iplenty-the-sell-out-that-wasnt.html


----------



## Crispy (Jul 1, 2007)

They key thing is that although the feature set is smaller, it's geared towards the less tech-savvy, the same way the ipod was. It will be very interesting just how open the SDK will be though - for geeky fiddlers like us, the 3rd-party software scene will be of prime importance if we're thinking of getting one.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> They key thing is that although the feature set is smaller, it's geared towards the less tech-savvy, the same way the ipod was.


Yes, but I'd wager a lot of the people queuing up to buy the iPhone _are _tech-savvy.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Interestingly, Ars technica is saying that despite all the hype there's still "giant piles of iPhones left" on the shelves, which is going to make some of the eBay floggers look a bit silly.
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070630-iphones-iplenty-the-sell-out-that-wasnt.html



Channel 4 dispute this:
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/science_technology/us+stores+almost+sold+out+of+iphones/584192


----------



## Crispy (Jul 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Yes, but I'd wager a lot of the people queuing up to buy the iPhone _are _tech-savvy.


True. But there aren't 10 million of those people - there's always a gotta-have-apple crowd, but they're aiming for mass market here. Getting those people excited and buying it will be the real test.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 1, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Channel 4 dispute this:
> http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/science_technology/us+stores+almost+sold+out+of+iphones/584192


That's the AT&T stores. The Apple stores have loads of stock.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> True. But there aren't 10 million of those people - there's always a gotta-have-apple crowd, but they're aiming for mass market here. Getting those people excited and buying it will be the real test.


Well, they've done a pretty damn fine job of pumping up the hype so far!

Dish out some iPhones to a few celebs and they'll be halfway there!


----------



## rocketman (Jul 1, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> That's the AT&T stores. The Apple stores have loads of stock.



Typical  Apple pattern that. Always stock in hand in Apple stores - even if Apple resellers don't have any, there's been court cases about that


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> That's the AT&T stores. The Apple stores have loads of stock.


I've learnt a new phrase from that article. "Buzz kill."





> Brad Bargman, Florida, who waited in line 9 hours on Friday to buy his phone, said excitement turned to dismay when the device stubbornly refused to activate, meaning it can't be used.
> 
> "It's a real buzz kill," said Bargman, adding that repeated calls to AT&T failed to get the device to work. "Now I'm soured on it a little bit.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 1, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Typical  Apple pattern that. Always stock in hand in Apple stores - even if Apple resellers don't have any, there's been court cases about that


It's the lucrative accesories trade innit. And getting people near a mac and an enthusiastic salesperson.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 1, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> It's the lucrative accesories trade innit. And getting people near a mac and an enthusiastic salesperson.



Yeah. They are a corporation and play plenty of tricks.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

This looks to be quite a fair iPhone vs Treo 650 comparison from someone who's got both:

http://qwan.org/2007/07/01/iphone-vs-treo-650/

I use Bluetooth syncing all the time, so I'm a bit surprised that it's not (yet) on the iPhone and there's no wi-fi syncing.
For the record you can add anti-aliased text to the Treo, but the guy's got a cheaper contract with the iPhone.


----------



## jæd (Jul 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Yes, but I'd wager a lot of the people queuing up to buy the iPhone _are _tech-savvy.



Thats short-term... Wait a bit and I'd guess that the iPhone will attract the style concious mainstream market. Look at the ipod. Which do people buy...? The easy-to-use one or the spoddy one with all the features like .ogg playback...?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 1, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> That's the AT&T stores. The Apple stores have loads of stock.



It might have something to do with them telling people to go buy it elsewhere and not to come to the Apple stores because of the likely crowds. 

Either that or unlike Nintendo, Sony etc Apple actually know how to make sure there's plenty of units available for a launch...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 1, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Thats short-term... Wait a bit and I'd guess that the iPhone will attract the style concious mainstream market. Look at the ipod. Which do people buy...? The easy-to-use one or the spoddy one with all the features like .ogg playback...?



Well said.


----------



## jæd (Jul 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> This looks to be quite a fair iPhone vs Treo 650 comparison from someone who's got both:
> 
> http://qwan.org/2007/07/01/iphone-vs-treo-650/
> 
> ...



Some good points in the article about the address book + some poor ones. (ie, just because Google update one app they're supposed to update them all simultaneously...?) But its the usual blogger take on things.. Personally, I've tried sync-ing my treo via bluetooth and it takes *ages*. But then, whats wrong with the bundled usb cable...?


----------



## jæd (Jul 1, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> They key thing is that although the feature set is smaller, it's geared towards the less tech-savvy, the same way the ipod was. It will be very interesting just how open the SDK will be though - for geeky fiddlers like us, the 3rd-party software scene will be of prime importance if we're thinking of getting one.



Basically. It seems a nice decent phone out-of-the-box + might have more functionality later. Also has the Apple + iPod name behind it... Windows Mobile has lots of features but is unreliable. Treo is nice but looks dated. I wonder which one everyone would rather have...?


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Personally, I've tried sync-ing my treo via bluetooth and it takes *ages*. But then, whats wrong with the bundled usb cable...?


The speed of your Buetooth sync depends on what apps you've got on your Palm, but it is slower than USB. 

I just prefer having one less set of wires on my desktop so it's good for me (and I always install MP3 songs/vids and apps via a card reader anyway)


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Basically. It seems a nice decent phone out-of-the-box + might have more functionality later. Also has the Apple + iPod name behind it... Windows Mobile has lots of features but is unreliable. Treo is nice but looks dated. I wonder which one everyone would rather have...?


Depends on what you want it for and your budget

Palm still has a massive business base, particularly in the US, and tons and tons of apps, but I can definitely see the Apple phone taking a bite of some of Palm's user base, although some may still prefer to stick with their Blackberry/Treos. 

Thing is, the iPhone a very expensive phone so it's not going to be for everyone.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 2, 2007)

*500,000 iPhones sold so far -- but can Apple keep up?*

Interesting stats and outlook:



> No matter how you slice it, moving 500,000 units of any product during its inaugural weekend launch is big. According to Gene Munster, analyst at Piper Jaffray, that's exactly what Apple's iPhone managed to pull off. After originally expecting Apple to sell "only" 200,000 iPhones on Friday and Saturday, he's now estimating that Apple sold a half-million iPhones from start of sales at 6pm on Friday until close of business on Sunday even with supply issues at AT&T store. According to their survey, 95% of buyers purchased the 8GB model with 50% of all buyers making the switch from another carrier to AT&T.
> 
> Great news right? Maybe, but in a potentially worrying trend, Apple is showing a marked decrease in iPhone availability at their retail locations this morning. While stores showed a 100% iPhone availability (they don't break it down by 4GB and 8GB models) on Saturday which dropped to 84% on Sunday, Apple's retail channel is showing a further decline in availability for Monday across Apple's brick and mortar retail business. In particular, Californians not living in San Francisco will have a tough time locating the device with 34 of 36 stores bleeding red on Apple's retail locator site -- a potential supply problem especially if AT&T shops remain void of product. Sure, you can still order on-line albeit with that same 2-4 week delivery delay we've seen since day 1.


Link

Also this video gives an idea of what it's like to type on the iPhone:

http://www.intomobile.com/2007/07/02/fast-typing-on-an-iphone-is-easy.html


----------



## rocketman (Jul 2, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Interesting stats and outlook:
> 
> Link
> 
> ...



I don't feel that the supply is really constrained. They probably engineered this to keep the passion burning and drive consumers to shop in an avid and urgent way. Make a hot product hard to get, you get pre-sales and consumer demand shoots up.

Apple (I understand from unconfirmed reports) had 3 million of these ready or on the way, so i anticipate stock refresh just in time for the weekend, after a week of short supply panic hype to tease shoppers that little bit more.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jul 2, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> I don't feel that the supply is really constrained. They probably engineered this to keep the passion burning and drive consumers to shop in an avid and urgent way. Make a hot product hard to get, you get pre-sales and consumer demand shoots up.
> 
> Apple (I understand from unconfirmed reports) had 3 million of these ready or on the way, so i anticipate stock refresh just in time for the weekend, after a week of short supply panic hype to tease shoppers that little bit more.



One thing I was a little surprised about was that when I bought mine on Saturday morning at an AT&T shop, it was the 8G model they sold out of.  Usually it's the cheap ones that go first


----------



## rocketman (Jul 2, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> One thing I was a little surprised about was that when I bought mine on Saturday morning at an AT&T shop, it was the 8G model they sold out of.  Usually it's the cheap ones that go first



That's also interesting - I seem to recall that Apple had some problems sourcing the quantity of flash memory they wanted to deploy...

Could also be that the margins are higher on the low GB model, as the price difference is just $100, though I'm not sure right now what spot price on flash is,


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 2, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> One thing I was a little surprised about was that when I bought mine on Saturday morning at an AT&T shop, it was the 8G model they sold out of.  Usually it's the cheap ones that go first



I was wondering about that, according to the link I posted above 95% of buyers bought the 8gig model. Perhaps it's just consumer demand for the best version of the iPhone available?


----------



## rocketman (Jul 3, 2007)

Quite an extensive review of the iPhone is available here

http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/ipod/review/apple-iphone-4gb-8gb

It may answer some questions about the current iteration of the product.
Enjoy.


----------



## jæd (Jul 3, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> One thing I was a little surprised about was that when I bought mine on Saturday morning at an AT&T shop, it was the 8G model they sold out of.  Usually it's the cheap ones that go first



If you're going to pay lots of money for a gadget, you may as well get the best you can afford... Esp. if you can't add memory to it later...

Btw, how is your iPhone doing...?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 3, 2007)

I wonder if they'll do a cut down version...iPhone Nano anyone?


----------



## Crispy (Jul 3, 2007)

maybe. don't see how the touch keyboard would be any use on a smaller screen.

from the sound of that ilounge review, I'd wait until version 2 - which hopefully will have replaceable battery and updated software. but they've made a very impressive start.


----------



## jæd (Jul 3, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> from the sound of that ilounge review, I'd wait until version 2 - which hopefully will have replaceable battery and updated software. but they've made a very impressive start.



I think that's good avice for *any* device...


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> from the sound of that ilounge review, I'd wait until version 2 - which hopefully will have replaceable battery and updated software. but they've made a very impressive start.


I'm taking the ilounge review with a little pinch of salt seeing as the site's clearly very biased towards all things Apple, but if Palm haven't got their act together by the time v2 comes out, then even Treo diehards like me might be tempted (but _only_ if the software I need is available).


----------



## Crispy (Jul 3, 2007)

*sarky incredulity*


----------



## rocketman (Jul 3, 2007)

iLounge are quite fair-minded on Apple. They have had their scrapes with Cupertino, as a result of which they are far from being Apple fan-boys, but are the resource for iPod stuff. But they tend to be more or less rational - though evidently not as 'rational' as a Treo website may be when covering a competing product. But in general, any review, statement, or argument put forward by anyone at all is, naturally, worth taking with a pinch of salt.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> *sarky incredulity*


Well, I'm still very happy with the Palm OS, but if there's no new high end phones on the horizon, I can't see me buying another old phone.

Windows Mobile was *horrible" so that only leaves Apple, although I'm not going to sign a 2 year deal with anyone for any phone, neither am I prepared to pay more than £250 for an unlocked new phone.

I guess that might be a stumbling point, but I'm still hopeful that Palm will come up with the goods.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> But they tend to be more or less rational - though evidently not as 'rational' as a Treo website may be when covering a competing product.


I'm not sure what you mean by that.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 3, 2007)

fingers crossed. but the signs are not good, last time I read about Palm.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 3, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Well, I'm still very happy with the Palm OS, but if there's no new high end phones on the horizon, I can't see me buying another old phone.
> 
> Windows Mobile was *horrible" so that only leaves Apple, although I'm not going to sign a 2 year deal with anyone for any phone, neither am I prepared to pay more than £250 for an unlocked new phone.
> 
> I guess that might be a stumbling point, but I'm still hopeful that Palm will come up with the goods.



They might, now that have Tevanian on the board. Either that or get acquired, by Apple. There's a long time connection between Palm and Apple.

PS: Reference to Treo website previously: If you read a review of a non-Treo product on a Treo website you'd expect the review to have a different slant than, say, if it was a Treo product on the same site.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 3, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> I think that's good avice for *any* device...



Aint that the truth. I've never been an early adopter, don't see the point.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 3, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> *sarky incredulity*


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 3, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> although I'm not going to sign a 2 year deal with anyone for any phone



You keep saying, where in the UK does these 2 year contracts??


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2007)

After filling up every conceivable page with endless fluff  iPhone articles, Engadget have posted up their review and it makes for an interesting read.



> But getting things done with the iPhone isn't easy, and anyone looking for a productivity device will probably need to look on. Its browser falls pretty short of the "internet in your pocket" claims Apple's made, and even though it's still easily the most advanced mobile browser on the market, its constant crashing doesn't exactly seal the deal. The iPhone's Mail app -- from its myriad missing features to its un-integrated POP mail experience to its obsolete method of accessing your Gmail -- makes email on the iPhone a huge chore at best....
> 
> But is the iPhone worth the two year contract with the oft-maligned AT&T and its steep price of admission? Hopefully we gave you enough information about the iPhone's every detail to make an informed decision -- despite the iPhone's many shortcomings, we suspect the answer for countless consumers will be a resounding yes.
> http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/03/iphone-review/


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Jul 3, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> You keep saying, where in the UK does these 2 year contracts??


Not yet, but there's a load of 18 month contracts already. There is nothing to say they won't go to 24 months for the iPhone. Which is the single largest reason i won't be getting one.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 3, 2007)

Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> Not yet, but there's a load of 18 month contracts already. There is nothing to say they won't go to 24 months for the iPhone. Which is the single largest reason i won't be getting one.



I'll believe it when I see. Regarding the price, the market over here works a bit differently, we're too used to subsidy and cheaper phones...


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2007)

Back to the Engadget iPhone review: "The Mail client is so awful it actually makes us wish Apple made a Foleo for the iPhone"    

Maybe Palm knows something we don't?!


----------



## Crispy (Jul 3, 2007)

CD32, CDO etc. discussion moved to new thread.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=213342


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 3, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> But it was still ahead of everyone else.
> 
> May I suggest we start  a new thread if we wish to go on about Ye Olde Consoles?



By a few months, and it wasn't all that. Back to your point comparing it to the Foleo (odd comparison to my mind) there wasn't anything to 'get'. It was just a cobbled together attempt to stay relevant in a console war they had no chance of winning (infact they'd already lost it by then).


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 3, 2007)

I must admit I'm starting to think the iPhone will have a dramatic longterm impact on smartphones. 

Did you read about the rumours the next Macbooks having multi touch? If true it looks like the iPhone is the beginning of something quite interesting...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 3, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> CD32, CDO etc. discussion moved to new thread.
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=213342



A confusing few seconds that...


----------



## Crispy (Jul 3, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> A confusing few seconds that...


Too right! Won't try that again in a hurry


----------



## jæd (Jul 3, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Back to the Engadget iPhone review: "The Mail client is so awful it actually makes us wish Apple made a Foleo for the iPhone"
> 
> Maybe Palm knows something we don't?!



Interesting review, but I don't really trust it much since they say "Historically, we haven't been huge fans of the iPod. We've found its interface generally simple, but irritating to navigate".

Comes across as very negative about what seem to be minor points. I know one or two friends who are planning to get one so I'll play with their phones first before making up my mind...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 3, 2007)

iPhone only costs £110 to make?


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Comes across as very negative about what seem to be minor points. I know one or two friends who are planning to get one so I'll play with their phones first before making up my mind...


There looks to be loads of great points to the iPhone and no shortage of delightful eye candy and fantastic usability, but the SMS/email handling does look pretty much total pants compared to the Treo, if that report is accurate.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> iPhone only costs £110 to make?


Only if you factor out all the R&D, construction and transporting costs which strikes me as rather daft.


----------



## WWWeed (Jul 3, 2007)

yup I would imagine it's just the physical value of the components, which as you say is rather silly.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Jul 3, 2007)

In itself it is, but if you track the story back to here then it's more interesting. Namely that apple generally had a 50% gross margin in previous devices. Then again they had something like a 58% gross margin (ithink) for the recent gen nanos and that puts the iPhone in the same ballpark...


----------



## Structaural (Jul 3, 2007)

It's a fetish techno device - you're paying for that and the brand too. Look at the markup on trainers.

AT&T stores would take the biggest cut of the profit anyway.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jul 3, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Back to the Engadget iPhone review: "The Mail client is so awful it actually makes us wish Apple made a Foleo for the iPhone"
> 
> Maybe Palm knows something we don't?!



I read the review.  I guess I'm a light emailer, as defined there.  

So far I like the email.  It integrates attachments much better than my Treo and doesn't truncate messages, and I think I can forward mail with it's attachments.  I can open .pdf, pictures and word documents very easily (without having to pay for documents-to-go).

It is slow, though, I'm about to put in wifi at home to see if this speeds things up.  I've not tried deleting stuff and I'll reserve comment on the synching.  One thing that is annoying me is that it defaults to loading the last 50 emails.  If I delete a few it fills with emails at the bottom, which is fine, but it shows these as being unread, so you think you have new mail, but it's actually a few weeks old.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> So far I like the email.  It integrates attachments much better than my Treo and doesn't truncate messages, and I think I can forward mail with it's attachments.  I can open .pdf, pictures and word documents very easily (without having to pay for documents-to-go)..


FYI, Documents to go comes *free* with the Treo 650, 680 and all subsequent Palm Treo models and you can both read _and edit_ Word and Excel files, as well as look at PDF and Powerpoint files. 

I've also got no problem forwarding attachments with my Treo, although I've been using Chatteremail for ages.


----------



## han (Jul 3, 2007)

I think you should get a Treo tattoo.


----------



## Gromit (Jul 3, 2007)

han said:
			
		

> I think you should get a Treo tattoo.



Intriging idea. I've been wondering what to get for my second tat. Maybe the Sinclair Spectrum logo.


----------



## chio (Jul 3, 2007)

Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> Not yet, but there's a load of 18 month contracts already. There is nothing to say they won't go to 24 months for the iPhone. Which is the single largest reason i won't be getting one.



I'm on an 18-month mobile contract, but the phone was £25 or something silly which makes it a bit different. And when I laboured the point in the shop, they knocked me the £25 off.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

This just in;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/03/AR2007070301105.html
Germany to get the iPhone in November at €450. No word on contract length. Voda is rumoured for the UK.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> This just in;
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/03/AR2007070301105.html
> Germany to get the iPhone in November at €450. No word on contract length. Voda is rumoured for the UK.



Deutsche Telecom = T-Mobile. But right now it looks like T-Mobile versus Vodafone. 

While I wouldn't be surprised to be surprised, I'd say the character of the negotiations for carrying this device will have changed significantly now Apple's flogged 700,000+ of them in just a few days. As such the stakes just climbed, so I reckon there's no final deal yet.

Price is 450 Euros, so I'd imagine c. £300.

Orange out the running cos they want to put an Orange brand on it - Apple won't go for that.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Deutsche Telecom = T-Mobile. But right now it looks like T-Mobile versus Vodafone.
> 
> While I wouldn't be surprised to be surprised, I'd say the character of the negotiations for carrying this device will have changed significantly now Apple's flogged 700,000+ of them in just a few days. As such the stakes just climbed, so I reckon there's no final deal yet.
> 
> ...



Hmmm £300? Possible...I guess.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 4, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Hmmm £300? Possible...I guess.



Yeah - the prevalence of the weird exchange rates practised by the tech world, in which one dollar is worth one pound, seemingly, is always a real world challenge to us over here. I'd be less keen on a £599 phone,


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Yeah - the prevalence of the weird exchange rates practised by the tech world, in which one dollar is worth one pound, seemingly, is always a real world challenge to us over here. I'd be less keen on a £599 phone,



You and the rest of us!


----------



## rocketman (Jul 4, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> You and the rest of us!



I see your point - but help me a little here - I have the distinct impression that with Apple products the UK always ends up being the most expensive in Europe - not to say that we aren't all being ripped-off here - just look at the cost of Adobe CS 3!


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

Here's another Treo vs iPhone comparison. It does a fairly good job of comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the two phones in some areas, but as it's a Palm fanboy site it's no surprise that the title of the conclusion reads: "Biased Treo Fan Declares Superiority Shock!!".
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9491/palm-treo-vs-the-iphone-10-rounds/

In fairness, on the criteria he's chosen it is a closely run thing, but if an Apple fan was to do something similar and create categories like Style, Pocketability and Swish interface, the iPhone would have romped home.

*Actually, I've just noticed that the guy hasn't even got an iPhone, so you can safely ignore most of the above!


----------



## rutabowa (Jul 4, 2007)

ooh i just had a go on one it is very pleasing! no way i woudl buy one tho.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> I see your point - but help me a little here - I have the distinct impression that with Apple products the UK always ends up being the most expensive in Europe - not to say that we aren't all being ripped-off here - just look at the cost of Adobe CS 3!



Very true that's why I'm a little cynical we'll see it for anything less than £500 (likewise for that over priced 'dumb laptop' the Foleo). Historically games consoles have always used the shitty pound for dollar conversion too...

That said we've been oddly lucky with mobile phones and tariffs compared to the US (better coverage, cheaper phones due to subsidy, no stupid things like being charged for people calling you etc) so hopefully UK networks might be able to leverage a bit more from Apple citing market realities in terms of getting the price down?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> *Actually, I've just noticed that the guy hasn't even got an iPhone, so you can safely ignore most of the above.


----------



## Structaural (Jul 4, 2007)

iPhone doesn't have MMS according to that article. Lame.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> iPhone doesn't have MMS according to that article. Lame.


It doesn't. Bit of a weird omission.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> iPhone doesn't have MMS according to that article. Lame.



That's not big deal imo, in the three years I've had a camera phone I've not sent more than about 15 picture texts. Besides with unlimited data it'd be cheaper to email your pix than text (you can see how a bunch of mates having iPhones, Treos, Blackberries and unlimited data will slow down on paying for texting too)...


----------



## rocketman (Jul 4, 2007)

More reviews:

http://www.iphonematters.com/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,287694,00.html
http://www.mobileburn.com/review.jsp?Id=3526&source=HOMETOP
http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA070307.01E.iphonereview_.37014c01.html
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/07/02/apples_iphone_an_initial_but_in_depth_review.html

General consensus seems "it's good, perhaps the best, but not the best we'll ever, ever see".


----------



## Pie 1 (Jul 4, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Orange out the running cos they want to put an Orange brand on it - Apple won't go for that.



  Markerting fools!


----------



## jæd (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Here's another Treo vs iPhone comparison. It does a fairly good job of comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the two phones in some areas, but as it's a Palm fanboy site it's no surprise that the title of the conclusion reads: "Biased Treo Fan Declares Superiority Shock!!".



Its also a bit flawed as he says:




			
				Review said:
			
		

> Phone's email is visually impressive, and has features like in-line photos that leave Versamail in the dust. It's also compatible with POP3, IMAP and Yahoo push email, so consumers – the main target market – will find most of their bases covered.



But then...




			
				Review said:
			
		

> Plus, for the business user, it's hard to go past a Treo, which can be configured to do any kind of email you want.



But this but includes a link to 3rd party solutions to get "push" email (like a Blackberry) on a Treo... What, a newly released phone doesn't support a competing products protocol. No shit...!


----------



## jæd (Jul 4, 2007)

Palm Fanboy said:
			
		

> But that's all hypothetical. In the here and now, the Treo is still the best smartphone available: user-friendly, fully featured, expandable and as versatile as you want it to be. It may crash occasionally. It's not pretty. It's not going to stop people in the street. But it's still the more useful and productive device with better value for money. And that's what really counts.



Yawn. Another reviewer doesn't realise a mass-market consumer-smartphone phone isn't a fully-fledged smartphone for spods. What is it with this year...? Does every new product have to be misinterpreted...?  

Here's a hint geeks. Not everything in the world is aimed at you...!


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> But this but includes a link to 3rd party solutions to get "push" email (like a Blackberry) on a Treo... What, a newly released phone doesn't support a competing products protocol. No shit...!


True, but the email solutions available on the (far cheaper and much older) Palm currently substantially outgun the iPhone. I think that's worth noting. Indeed, Engadget made a big point of citing their disappointment with the iPhone in this area.

None of this takes away from the strengths and achievements of the phone in other areas though.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 4, 2007)

This is also quite interesting, I think - sure it's fanboy territory, but this guy's got it sussed kind of, in a join the dots kind of way. Think of the iPhone as a thin client computer with OS X integration, add a touch of Leopard's Back to My Mac, and you have something quite interesting here. (If you really want to go to town, you could consider the web version of Photoshop that Adobe's been working on recently). Please don't forget I'm a prize fantasist.
Anyway, the link
http://iphonehints.com/story/commen...pples-roadmap-general-purpose-computer-known-


----------



## Sunray (Jul 4, 2007)

Lot of talk for a Phone you can't actually buy for the UK right now.  I can't use it as it doesn't support 3G and I have a 3G SIM.

I think that for the US market it might do OK, but Europe is much more mobile savvy and will reject things based upon price.  Unless an operator lists it, you will never see this phone in the country unless you want to buy a US one.


----------



## Structaural (Jul 4, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> That's not big deal imo, in the three years I've had a camera phone I've not sent more than about 15 picture texts. Besides with unlimited data it'd be cheaper to email your pix than text (you can see how a bunch of mates having iPhones, Treos, Blackberries and unlimited data will slow down on paying for texting too)...



Is that unlimited data through wifi or always? Not a bad deal if it's over the phone line.

I send a photo twice a week I'd say.


----------



## jæd (Jul 4, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> http://www.mobileburn.com/review.jsp?Id=3526&source=HOMETOP



I think that's one of the few mobile phone review sites I actually trust... I've bought (or avoided) plenty of phones based out the reviews...


----------



## Structaural (Jul 4, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> This is also quite interesting, I think - sure it's fanboy territory, but this guy's got it sussed kind of, in a join the dots kind of way. Think of the iPhone as a thin client computer with OS X integration, add a touch of Leopard's Back to My Mac, and you have something quite interesting here. (If you really want to go to town, you could consider the web version of Photoshop that Adobe's been working on recently). Please don't forget I'm a prize fantasist.
> Anyway, the link
> http://iphonehints.com/story/commen...pples-roadmap-general-purpose-computer-known-



No playing of VBR mp3s either. I'll wait for the 3rd generation version that's given away free with my contract I think. Pay up front for a phone? Pah.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> Is that unlimited data through wifi or always? Not a bad deal if it's over the phone line.
> 
> I send a photo twice a week I'd say.



Unlimited data for emailing and surfing over the phone as far as I can tell.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

no VBR mp3's??? About half my library is VBR.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> Lot of talk for a Phone you can't actually buy for the UK right now.



Not really that surprising really, we've talked about films on here a year in advance of their release, probably more for games consoles etc so why should the iPhone be any different?


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Not really that surprising really, we've talked about films on here a year in advance of their release, probably more for games consoles etc so why should the iPhone be any different?


Come on: the amount of pre-release hyperbole for the iPhone outshines anything comparable by a colossal margin.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Come on: the amount of pre-release hyperbole for the iPhone outshines anything comparable by a colossal margin.


*waggles hand*

I reckon the wii and the ps3 generated similar levels of froth


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> no VBR mp3's??? About half my library is VBR.


I'm so unc001 I don't even know what a VDR MP3 is!

I think Palm supports them though.

Whatever they are.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> *waggles hand*
> 
> I reckon the wii and the ps3 generated similar levels of froth


No, they really didn't. Not by a long chalk.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

Variable Bit Rate - makes more efficient use of space by only using high quality compression when it's needed.


----------



## Structaural (Jul 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> no VBR mp3's??? About half my library is VBR.



and all my own rips: 320bps VBR. I guess the ARM processor in it can't cope.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Come on: the amount of pre-release hyperbole for the iPhone outshines anything comparable by a colossal margin.



And? All I was saying was that we've talked about plenty of things on here long before we've been able to buy them in our shops.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Variable Bit Rate - makes more efficient use of space by only using high quality compression when it's needed.


*still a bit ignorant

What do you use to convert the VBR MP3s? 
And do they play on ordinary CD players?


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

It's nothing spooky - perfectly valid MP3 format.
And no, normal CD players don't play MP3s


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> *waggles hand*
> 
> I reckon the wii and the ps3 generated similar levels of froth



Yep. That said I'm not sure what measurement criteria the Ed is using?


----------



## Structaural (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> *still a bit ignorant
> 
> What do you use to convert the VBR MP3s?
> And do they play on ordinary CD players?



LAME encoder or iTunes built in (I tend to use that for convenience) but most rippers will do it, it's been around for ages but it hogs the processor more.

Depends on the player I would think.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 4, 2007)

Yeah there has been an awful lot of pre-release hype, but right now it looks like the 700,000 early US adopters are (in the main) quite happy.

3G iPhone for Europe? I say definitely. Edge isn't the same here, and the telcos are desperate to make cash back on the networks they invested in.

Pssst: whispers are Apple went with Edge in US because AT&T wanted them to, not power drain problems at all.

Vodafone and T-Mobile both offer 3G modems for Macs, so they have some experience of OS X, suggests they'll clinch the deal.

Not many people know this, but Apple had a device - a phone - they planned to announce around two years ago. Plans were highly advanced - they even had web pages and product marketing stuff ready to go, but two days before launch the plan was moth-balled. Not sure what relevance that is to anything, but it's one of those semi-factoids to spin around.


----------



## jæd (Jul 4, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> and all my own rips: 320bps VBR. I guess the ARM processor in it can't cope.



I'd guess a future version of the iPhone will be able... AFAIK iPods do...


----------



## jæd (Jul 4, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> This is also quite interesting, I think - sure it's fanboy territory, but this guy's got it sussed kind of, in a join the dots kind of way. Think of the iPhone as a thin client computer with OS X integration, add a touch of Leopard's Back to My Mac, and you have something quite interesting here. (If you really want to go to town, you could consider the web version of Photoshop that Adobe's been working on recently). Please don't forget I'm a prize fantasist.
> Anyway, the link
> http://iphonehints.com/story/commen...pples-roadmap-general-purpose-computer-known-



Thats actually one of the more intelligent and original takes on the iPhone, and perhaps one of the most accurate (in terms of Apple's strategy...(


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Not many people know this, but Apple had a device - a phone - they planned to announce around two years ago. Plans were highly advanced - they even had web pages and product marketing stuff ready to go, but two days before launch the plan was moth-balled. Not sure what relevance that is to anything, but it's one of those semi-factoids to spin around.



Why was it canned?


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> It's nothing spooky - perfectly valid MP3 format.
> And no, normal CD players don't play MP3s


I mean when you burn them to CDs.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I mean when you burn them to CDs.


Well, yes 
They're really nothing special.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Yep. That said I'm not sure what measurement criteria the Ed is using?


Apart from the fact that I work in the biz and that's been my personal observation, it's been pretty much acknowledged that the iPhone is one of the most - if not _the most_ - hyped electronic gizmos ever.

Certainly Engadget - which I believe is the most the most popular consumer electronics site - has never carried so much content on a single product launch before, and CNet described it as "the most hyped device in gadget history" and "The most-hyped gadget in world history."


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Not sure what relevance that is to anything, but it's one of those semi-factoids to spin around.


I like spinning semi factoids.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

http://www.google.com/trends?q=wii,+ps3,+iphone

You're right.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Apart from the fact that I work in the biz and that's been my personal observation, it's been pretty much acknowledged that the iPhone is one of the most - if not _the most_ - hyped electronic gizmos ever.
> 
> Certainly Engadget - which I believe is the most the most popular consumer electronics site - has never carried so much content on a single product launch before, and CNet described it as "the most hyped device in gadget history" and "The most-hyped gadget in world history."



You work in the console biz? Also, without data showing column inches it's just your 'expert' opinion.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

T Mobile are denying a deal has been done: link



> According to reports in German newspaper Rheinische Post, T-Mobile was about to announce a deal with Apple over the Apple iPhone Europe contract , but the mobile operator is saying this isn't the case.
> 
> "We have no information about such a deal," a spokeswoman for T-Mobile in the UK said when we contacted the firm this morning.


----------



## Structaural (Jul 4, 2007)

I suppose because it taps into the two 'fetishistic' and must have items of current technology, MP3 players and mobile phones. I think it'll sell rather well in Japan.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> I suppose because it taps into the two 'fetishistic' and must have items of current technology, MP3 players and mobile phones. I think it'll sell rather well in Japan.


Which so far has ignored the ipod.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 4, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Why was it canned?



Nothing but secrets there. No one can tell me. It wasn't as radical as this iPhone, though.

Jony (Ive) has been dreaming of designing a phone for about five years, at least five years. he really hates current phones - feature-packed but with rubbish and counter-inuitive interfaces (sure there are xceptions, Palm knows how to build better interfaces, as you'd expect from a bunch of ex-Apple execs). He got quite het up about mobiles a few years back, but there's a story there too.


----------



## Structaural (Jul 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Which so far has ignored the ipod.



Is it? What's the big seller over there?


----------



## jæd (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Apart from the fact that I work in the biz...



And which "biz" would that be, then...? And what would be your role. Because at the moment the only results I see for your name are as a journalist...


----------



## rocketman (Jul 4, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> Is it? What's the big seller over there?



Sony and Samsung, I believe


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> Is it? What's the big seller over there?


Hmm, I think I made that one up, or have it confused with another product/country. my bad.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> And which "biz" would that be, then...?


Err, I write about new product launches which I'd say puts me in a position to make an observation about a, err, new product launch.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> You work in the console biz? Also, without data showing column inches it's just your 'expert' opinion.


FFS: I've backed up my opinion that the iPhone is one of the most hyped product launches ever by referencing some of the biggest technology sites out there.

If you think they're wrong, write to them instead of trying to have a go at me.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> http://www.google.com/trends?q=wii,+ps3,+iphone
> 
> You're right.


  

I'm surprised to see just _how_ high the news reference volume went, to be honest. It dwarfs all before it!


----------



## Tom A (Jul 4, 2007)

What does this iPhone do that most other modern phones don't? Probably not much, and what it does do is probably inferior to the competition.

Me? I still yet to get into the 3G age, my phone has no camera, and it's only since last year since I have been using Windows XP (since I got a new computer), just before they stated hyping Vista...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> FFS: I've backed up my opinion that the iPhone is one of the most hyped product launches ever by referencing some of the biggest technology sites out there.
> 
> If you think they're wrong, write to them instead of trying to have a go at me.



I'm not 'having a go at you' I really don't understand why you take things so personally sometimes.  I just said I don't see any objective data, provide it otherwise I'll take your opinion as just that an opinion.


----------



## jæd (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Err, I write about new product launches which I'd say puts me in a position to make an observation about a, err, new product launch.



I bow before your superior knowledge of, um, "product launches"....


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

Tom A said:
			
		

> What does this iPhone do that most other modern phones don't? Probably not much, and what it does do is probably inferior to the competition.



Some of what it does is vastly superior. Some of what it does isn't quite as good. Some stuff it doesn't do that other devices already do. It looks and feels and operates beautifully. It's overpriced.

This is exactly how you could describe the 1st generation ipod.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

Tom A said:
			
		

> What does this iPhone do that most other modern phones don't? Probably not much, and what it does do is probably inferior to the competition.
> 
> Me? I still yet to get into the 3G age, my phone has no camera, and it's only since last year since I have been using Windows XP (since I got a new computer), just before they stated hyping Vista...



I bet you still have the original Gameboy too?


----------



## jæd (Jul 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Which so far has ignored the ipod.



Yes... I would guess the iPhone probably won't be that big there (not sure it would TBH) but its always strange what does take off there compared to here. Personally I thought Japanese phones were a bit clunky but I think that was the style at the time...


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> I bow before your superior knowledge of, um, "product launches"....


Good job too, because as you can see, I was proved 100% correct and your cheap little personal snipe just made you look a little foolish.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

*chalks another point on the scoreboard*

It's getting messy, give me a minute while I wipe it down and put the tally back up.


----------



## jæd (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Good job too, because as you can see, I was proved 100% correct and your cheap little personal snipe just made you look a little foolish.






			
				Google said:
			
		

> Google Trends aims to provide insights into broad search patterns.



Um... Google Trends just shows the interest (ie people searching for) a keyword... If you wanted to measure the amount of hype being actively generated wouldn't it be a good idea to looking at PR $ spent...?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Um... Google Trends just shows the interest (ie people searching for) a keyword... If you wanted to measure the amount of hype being actively generated wouldn't it be a good idea to looking at PR $ spent...?



That coupled with column inches are a far better objective indication than expert opinion.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

Google trends also tracks stories indexed by google news - that's the bottom graph.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Um... Google Trends just shows the interest (ie people searching for) a keyword... If you wanted to measure the amount of hype being actively generated wouldn't it be a good idea to looking at PR $ spent...?


Perhaps you failed to see the second graph detailing the news reference graph?
The iPhone graph towers above everything else. I even commented on that earlier!


> Located just beneath our search-volume graph is our news-reference-volume graph. This graph shows you the number of times your topic appeared in Google News stories.
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=wii,+ps3,+iphone


----------



## Tom A (Jul 4, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I bet you still have the original Gameboy too?


Naaa, I did have the transparent one of those for a time, but parted with that in 2002.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> That coupled with column inches are a far better objective indication than expert opinion.


Did you miss the news reference volume graph too?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 4, 2007)

Tom A said:
			
		

> Naaa, I did have the transparent one of those for a time, but parted with that in 2002.



Now they were a cool gadget...


----------



## jæd (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Did you miss the news reference volume graph too?



Handy explanation here ( http://www.google.com/intl/en/trends/about.html#6 )... If only we could have a expert on product launches to tell us what it all meant...!


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Handy explanation here ( http://www.google.com/intl/en/trends/about.html#6 )... If only we could have a expert on product launches to tell us what it all meant...!


That #6 is talking about the region/country charts, which are about searches.

The News graph clearly shows a big spike, twice as high as the wii and ps3 ever gets. And that graph (and I quote!)



> shows you the number of times your topic appeared in Google News stories. When Google Trends detects a spike in the volume of news stories for a particular term, it labels the graph and displays the headline of an automatically selected Google News story written near the time of that spike. Currently, only English-language headlines are displayed, but we hope to support non-English headlines in the future.



Google news indexes 1000's of news sources and high traffic blogs. It is a pretty reliable measure of the (internet) press exposure of a keyword.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Handy explanation here ( http://www.google.com/intl/en/trends/about.html#6 )... If only we could have a expert on product launches to tell us what it all meant...!


You're getting really tedious now and I can see why another poster got really pissed off with you recently. Why are you always trying to make it personal and score cheap points over such trivial matters? 

What are you hoping to achieve with your sneering "expert on product launches" jibe?
The fact remains that I was proved 100% correct. Sorry if you don't like that fact, but there you go.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 4, 2007)

Nah, I'd say 98% correct, just to be safe.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Nah, I'd say 98% correct, just to be safe.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 4, 2007)

What's also interesting to note, just note, is that Apple actually hasn't spent a great deal of cash on publicising this device, not really - there's been little ads spend anywhere - the media machine (and the company's press bunnies) have achieved something perhaps even more miraculous (seeming) than multi-touch - they have generated an unyielding stream of media reports, for the cost of some phone calls and the odd little pre-release rumour.
They probably spent more advertising iPod/iTunes in recent months, - McCartney can't have come cheap, after all.
There's probably a book in Apple marketing as a reference bible for other marketeers, if anyone could be bothered writing it (unless it is already writ).


----------



## jæd (Jul 4, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You're getting really tedious now and I can see why another poster got really pissed off with you recently. Why are you always trying to make it personal and score cheap points over such trivial matters?
> 
> What are you hoping to achieve with your sneering "expert on product launches" jibe?
> The fact remains that I was proved 100% correct. Sorry if you don't like that fact, but there you go.



Oops... After thinking about my recent points I can appreciate where they were more personal than the topic allowed... Sorry about that.  I will tone it down in future...  Please feel free to delete them...!


----------



## Sunray (Jul 5, 2007)

I stand corrected, O2 is going to launch it by Xmas, I'll be due an upgrade by then, so will be midly interested, but it looks far to wide for me.  

I like the form factor I have with the K800i so its probably going to be a K810i.  The lack of decent 3G connectivity is a killer blow to the iPhone for me. Then there is the rubbish camera, and the keyboard is a bit rubbish according the to guy on the BBC.  

Its 1/2 way there but looks like a rushed product.  The multi touch screen is a nice idea, but nice ideas don't make great product.

I'll be more interested in the revised version.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 5, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> I stand corrected, O2 is going to launch it by Xmas


 
Link?


----------



## rocketman (Jul 5, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Link?



Yeah so now it looks like VOdafone lucked out (or pulled back) and its like this:

Germany T Mobile
France Orange
UK O2

This is out the times, FT and so on - naturally nothing yet confirmed.

I still anticipate a 3G model for Europe, I'd be less interested in Edge alone.


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Germany T Mobile
> France Orange
> UK O2


Has o2 got a cheapo unlimited data deal at the moment like T-Mobile's? If not, I guess they'll have to introduce one in double quick time for the iPhone.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Has o2 got a cheapo unlimited data deal at the moment like T-Mobile's? If not, I guess they'll have to introduce one in double quick time for the iPhone.


AT&T were pretty much forced to make one. Can't imagine Apple will let the european carriers get away with less either.

And I imagine it will be 3G - Edge isn't as widely deployed over here.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Has o2 got a cheapo unlimited data deal at the moment like T-Mobile's? If not, I guess they'll have to introduce one in double quick time for the iPhone.



Nope, their data deals are shite, the main reason I left them for T Mobile.


----------



## Structaural (Jul 5, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Hmm, I think I made that one up, or have it confused with another product/country. my bad.



Was that was one of those semi-factoids?


----------



## rocketman (Jul 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Has o2 got a cheapo unlimited data deal at the moment like T-Mobile's? If not, I guess they'll have to introduce one in double quick time for the iPhone.



Yeah I'd consider this likely. Whether it happens or not is another thing, but without unlimited data access the phone is gonna be useless - people won't ever want to use a data feature cos it costs 'em.

Anyway, O2 are denying things now. I reckon they are all in final stage meetings with Apple, and Apple is playing em all off agin each other.

Maybe...


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Yeah I'd consider this likely. Whether it happens or not is another thing, but without unlimited data access the phone is gonna be useless - people won't ever want to use a data feature cos it costs 'em.


Yep. A reasonable unlimited data deal is absolutely _essential_ for the iPhone in the UK.


----------



## Jim2k5 (Jul 5, 2007)

link here about o2 taking the contract

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/telecoms/article2028678.ece


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2007)

Jim2k5 said:
			
		

> link here about o2 taking the contract
> 
> http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/telecoms/article2028678.ece


They reckon it'll be selling for a pricey £300 *with* contract, although there's no mention of the length of the deal.


----------



## Structaural (Jul 5, 2007)

No thread is safe from lolcatz


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jul 5, 2007)

No 3G, apparently.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 5, 2007)

says who?


----------



## Structaural (Jul 5, 2007)

iphone skin for Windows phones

http://www.angelfire.com/planet/iphone/


----------



## Throbbing Angel (Jul 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> They reckon it'll be selling for a pricey £300 *with* contract, although there's no mention of the length of the deal.


----------



## Structaural (Jul 5, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> says who?



It's not in the states, it's a slower service equiv. to 2.5G, I doubt if they'd get away with that in Europe.


Here's a list of negative things about the iPhone (C&P):

• The mobile version of OS X or whatever it is the iPhone runs takes up 700MB of the device’s capacity. Damn son!
• There’s no way to cut, copy, or paste text! WHOA! Big, big mistake.
• No A2DP support. That, friends, is such a huge bummer right there.
• Sorry, music can’t be used as a ringtone — even if it’s just a raw MP3. No additional ringtones will be sold at launch.
• On a PC the iPhone syncs with Outlook for calendars AND addresses! Noice.
• It supports Exchange in some capacity, according to Walt, but he doesn’t exactly say how.
• Pogue again confirms document file reading — but not editing — for PDF, Word, and Excel (only).
• Adobe Flash support is officially out. It’s just not in the browser. Neither is there any other kind of embedded video support. Sorry everybody, that’s that.
• It will take snaps, but won’t record video. How can Apple love YouTube as much as it does and not realize cellphone-shot movies make up a sizeable chunk of the crazy crap you find on there?
• Oh, and no MMS. And sorry, no voice dialing, either.
• Contact groups can’t be emailed as contact lists.
• Apple sez between 300-400 charges the iPhone will lose battery capacity — you’ll send it in and get the cell replaced for a fee. Meh. We knew this would be the case, but still, meh.
• Apple can (and supposedly will) be rolling out periodic updates — no surprise there.
• Battery life is, somehow, almost as mind-blowingly good as Apple claims for calls, music, and movies.
• As we suspected, users are prompted with lists of WiFi networks if you’re not nearby a trusted hotspot. We’ve seen this on other phones, and we’re afraid this would get friggin annoying.
• It’s said to be very scratch resistant. The facade both front and rear apparently just doesn’t pick up marring like regular iPods do.
• Voice quality is said to be good — not great.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 5, 2007)

I'm really finding it hard to see what the point of the iphone is, from what I've read it's a crap phone, but with a funky interface.

Anyone care to enlighten me?


----------



## Crispy (Jul 5, 2007)

That's not a list of negative points, just a list of points  Although some - no C'n'P, no Flash, no video and no user battery are the big ones, IMO. Cnp and video will most likely come in future software, Flash is up to Adobe. The nonreplaceable battery sucks though

And seeing as O2's network has no EDGE at all, I wouldn't be surprised if the UK version is 3G. The US version went for EDGE because 3G coverage is so patchy over there.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 5, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> I'm really finding it hard to see what the point of the iphone is, from what I've read it's a crap phone, but with a funky interface.
> 
> Anyone care to enlighten me?


It's a decent phone with a (nearly) fantastic interface, designed for those who found email/web too complex or not even interesting on their phone before. It's like the ipod - purposefully simplify the features and streamline the interface to make it easy to use, then wrap it up in sexy design.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 5, 2007)

You can't even cut and paste text on it? No MMS?   

Really, what's the point of it?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 5, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> It's a decent phone with a (nearly) fantastic interface, designed for those who found email/web too complex or not even interesting on their phone before. It's like the ipod - purposefully simplify the features and streamline the interface to make it easy to use, then wrap it up in sexy design.


So, like most apple products, technology for stupid people


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 5, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> So, like most apple products, technology for stupid people



You mean normal people not geeks/nerds.


----------



## Dask (Jul 5, 2007)

Or technology for people that can't be arsed with technology


----------



## tarannau (Jul 5, 2007)

I don't know, most of the reviews I've read in the mainstream press have been pretty gushing, the geeks sites slightly more varied. But there again many of those same geek sites were the same ones who thought that the ipod would never take off.

What's clear is that, in its first attempt, Apple's pretty much raised the bar for consistent interface design on phones. Maybe a fresh start helped, but some of the changes although minor (being able to arrange/listen to voice mail messages in non-linear order etc) have made a difference - in fact so much so that you wonder why many of the long term phone manufacturers hadn't got off their arses and made more convincing usability improvements themselves.

As a first stab it's a pretty impressive achievement. Given how fast the ipod  and competitiors have matured and improved over the years, it bodes pretty well for future phones. No longer should we be plagued by dodgily interfaced phones with ok central functions but a load of inconsistent tat and tacked-on applications on the side.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Jul 5, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> You mean normal people not geeks/nerds.


IF ( person.understandJava )
person.setStatus(geek);
else
person.setStatus(idiot);

(Oh the bitter irony of getting syntax wrong )

(
Or the slightly nicer onliner:
person.setstatus(person.understandJava?geek:idiot);
Not sure it'd work though 
)


----------



## Crispy (Jul 5, 2007)

Dask said:
			
		

> Or technology for people that can't be arsed with technology


That's the one.

My mum worked her ipod and itunes first time, straight out of the box and that's the first time that's EVER happened. Usually it ends up with me being tech support down the phone.


----------



## Structaural (Jul 5, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> You mean normal people not geeks/nerds.


----------



## tarannau (Jul 5, 2007)

Yep same opinion here. My dad got his first computer 3 years back at the age of 60. Despite his best efforts at surfing dodgy sites, dragging system files to the the trash and generally fucking everything possible, the aged emac he has still hasn't a day of downtime. That's a really great achievement as far as I'm concerned, one worthy of praise rather than sneery jibes - I'm actually proud of my old man (and gratefully to the mac)

And seeing how a hefty proportion of professional music and tv production (2 years ago it was still hovering around the 80% mark) still occurs on macs, there are an awful lot of thick creative people out who need the help. Interestingly one of Apple's (comparatively) biggest growth areas of late has been amongst scientific and geek/alternative OS nerds, with a healthy re-growth of architects as well. The market's widening again.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 5, 2007)

iPhone is feature packed phone for people who don't want to spend ages learning how it works.

I imagine that the model that ships in Europe will be a little more streamlined for European needs - they have a few months to achieve this. 

The O2 rumour combined with that network's lack of Edge pretty much confirms 3G support for the European model. But with Apple, nothing's ever set in stone until things ship.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 5, 2007)

Don't O2 have that imode thing? Aint that bascially 2.5g?


----------



## Crispy (Jul 5, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Don't O2 have that imode thing? Aint that bascially 2.5g?


up to 48kbps, as far as I can tell, so no, not really.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jul 5, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> Here's a list of negative things about the iPhone (C&P):
> 
> • The mobile version of OS X or whatever it is the iPhone runs takes up 700MB of the device’s capacity. Damn son!.......



-If you miss-type a contact you can't move the cursor to mid-word and correct, you have to delete the whole thing
-my iPod doesn't fit into the same dock
-I don't seem to be able to get it to synch with my .mac address book, only with the one on the desk top


but I love my iPhone


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2007)

Apple is helped by the fact that one of its main competitors - Windows Mobile - ships with an absolute dog's dinner of a fiddly interface with all the user friendliness of Windoze 3.1.

Mind you, Apple have been quick to nab some of the Treo's best ideas, with the iPhone sporting both threaded SMS and a hardware sound off button.

These are absolute essentials so it's a bit of a mystery why most Windows phones didn't get around to including them after such a long time.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 5, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> up to 48kbps, as far as I can tell, so no, not really.



Oh right, why in the world were they making such a big deal about that?


----------



## untethered (Jul 5, 2007)

Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> IF ( person.understandJava )
> person.setStatus(geek);
> else
> person.setStatus(idiot);
> ...



The ternary operator is structured in exactly the same way as if/then/else.

So it would be:

person.understandJava ? person.setStatus(geek) : person.setStatus(idiot)

In other words:

condition ? action if true : action if false


----------



## jæd (Jul 5, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> The O2 rumour combined with that network's lack of Edge pretty much confirms 3G support for the European model. But with Apple, nothing's ever set in stone until things ship.






			
				Fanboy-central said:
			
		

> I was visiting an AT&T company store while vacationing (I won't say where) and made friends with the AT&T representative while talking to her and one of her customers about Apple, the iPod and iPhone. The representative and I both know 3G is the way to go, but Apple went with the older version instead. Shame on Apple, but the representative advised me that we'd see a 3G phone at Christmas this year 2007 and mentioned that they were not supposed to talk to customers about that. That kind of goes along with the Apple hardware refresh with a almost six month refresh. So who knows. I like the iPhone, but it's where I need it to be yet. I won't leave my current smart phone without some important things like SPEED, Phone as Modem w/ USB, etc. Hurry up Apple!!!



See : http://macslash.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/04/0313240&mode=thread


----------



## rocketman (Jul 5, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> See : http://macslash.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/04/0313240&mode=thread



Yeah. It's happening.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 5, 2007)

In case anyone is interested:

Walt Mossberg expects a software update for the iPhone will introduce support for Adobe Flash (Adobe is developing something for mobile devices that's better than existing solutions, I believe)
http://www.electronista.com/articles/07/07/05/wsj.on.iphone.flash/

Also word is they've shipped a million at this point.

Just thought I should contribute to the pot in this thread.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Jul 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Apple is helped by the fact that one of its main competitors - Windows Mobile - ships with an absolute dog's dinner of a fiddly interface with all the user friendliness of Windoze 3.1.
> 
> Mind you, Apple have been quick to nab some of the Treo's best ideas, with the iPhone sporting both threaded SMS and a hardware sound off button.
> 
> These are absolute essentials so it's a bit of a mystery why most Windows phones didn't get around to including them after such a long time.



Not really a straight comparison.. Windows Mobile is for the business market, iPhone is for the consumer market. My HTC Trinity does a lot more than the iPhone.


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2007)

ChrisFilter said:
			
		

> Not really a straight comparison.. Windows Mobile is for the business market, iPhone is for the consumer market. My HTC Trinity does a lot more than the iPhone.


I've no doubt that both Palm and Windows phones can currently do a lot more that the iPhone, but you're quite wrong to insist that Windows Mobile is only aimed at the business user.

There's been a host of WM releases bigging up non-business multimedia features like MP3 players, video playback, cameras and other gizmos, and Microsoft has a whole section describing how you can play hard with your WM handset.


----------



## jæd (Jul 5, 2007)

ChrisFilter said:
			
		

> Not really a straight comparison.. Windows Mobile is for the business market, iPhone is for the consumer market. My HTC Trinity does a lot more than the iPhone.



Personally I'd say that Blackberry is for business users and Windows Mobile is for the tech user... Apple is firmly in the consumer market...


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Personally I'd say that Blackberry is for business users .


Weeeellllll, they're also trying to get touchy feely with the consumer market and are busy bolting on the punter-pleasing multimedia widgets.

Their recent Pearl phone was aimed _directly_ at consumers:
http://www.cio.com/article/24604/RIM_Targets_Consumer_Market_With_BlackBerry_Pearl


----------



## jæd (Jul 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Weeeellllll, they're also trying to get touchy feely with the consumer market and are busy bolting on the punter-pleasing multimedia widgets.
> 
> Their recent Pearl phone was aimed _directly_ at consumers:
> http://www.cio.com/article/24604/RIM_Targets_Consumer_Market_With_BlackBerry_Pearl



Yep, but the ui is a clunky as all the other ones...!


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Yep, but the ui is a clunky as all the other ones...!


That's true. I had a go on my friend's Pearl and the interface was_ horrible.
_


----------



## ChrisFilter (Jul 5, 2007)

Regardless, Apple are aiming for the usual Apple market, which isn't the Windows Mobile market at all.


----------



## tarannau (Jul 5, 2007)

What the hell is the usual Apple market these days. Isn't the ipod mass market enough to take it out of any particular geek or creative segment?


----------



## rocketman (Jul 5, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> What the hell is the usual Apple market these days. Isn't the ipod mass market enough to take it out of any particular geek or creative segment?



It's people who care little enough about technology that they just want their technology to work, but care enough about it to know what is possible.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 5, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> It's people who care little enough about technology that they just want their technology to work, but care enough about it to know what is possible.



Yup, normal people.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 5, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Yup, normal people.



Involved in doing other also amazing things, from bringing up children to saving lives to creating music, art and culture to make you smile. Or just staying in, maybe playing Urban or something. This is what normal people do - everything else that special people are not heavily involved in.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 5, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Involved in doing other also amazing things, from bringing up children to saving lives to creating music, art and culture to make you smile. Or just staying in, maybe playing Urban or something. This is what normal people do - everything else that special people are not heavily involved in.



Yup, normal people are


----------



## Structaural (Jul 6, 2007)

They are piss takers, Apple:

iphone_batteries_will_cost_$85.95_to_replace.html


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Involved in doing other also amazing things, from bringing up children to saving lives to creating music, art and culture to make you smile.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> They are piss takers, Apple:
> 
> iphone_batteries_will_cost_$85.95_to_replace.html


Eeek! 


> If the iPhone goes wrong outside its warranty, Apple will charge $199 to repair a 4GB iPhone and $249 for an 8GB movel.


Thankfully, I'd imagine that a third party industry will quickly emerge to undercut Apple's inflated prices for repair and battery replacement. I find the idea of having to send my phone off for days just to get the battery changed pretty weird, to be honest.


----------



## Gromit (Jul 6, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Eeek!
> Thankfully, I'd imagine that a third party industry will quickly emerge to undercut Apple's inflated prices for repair and battery replacement. I find the idea of having to send my phone off for days just to get the battery changed pretty weird, to be honest.



Somebody mentioned before that the batteries were welded in place and we couldn't work out why.
Now we know why. So that they can sting the consumer for changing them. 

Reminds me of Packard Hell and their previous practice of engineering it so that you could only upgrade by buying their components. They'd programmed the bios to refuse 3rd party hardware. Anything to maximise the aftersales buck.

Glad I'm not buying one.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 6, 2007)

I've not yet heard one thing about the iphone that makes me think it's anything other than an overpriced, marketing led, heap of shit.

My Vario II still craps on everything else I've ever used.


----------



## Dask (Jul 6, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> My Vario II still craps on everything else I've ever used.



Except that it runs Windoze mobile which is the worst phone OS in the history of mobiles.


----------



## jæd (Jul 6, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Somebody mentioned before that the batteries were welded in place and we couldn't work out why.
> Now we know why. So that they can sting the consumer for changing them.



Or perhaps it was just easier to manufacter...? But I'm guessing it won't be in the iPhone 1.01...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 6, 2007)

Dask said:
			
		

> Except that it runs Windoze mobile which is the worst phone OS in the history of mobiles.



Depending on your experience...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 6, 2007)

Dask said:
			
		

> Except that it runs Windoze mobile which is the worst phone OS in the history of mobiles.


I still don't see why people hate it so much, other than standard anti-microsoft ranting.

I find it easy to use, nice and logical, and it's never crashed.


----------



## Dask (Jul 6, 2007)

You must be in the minority.

My Window Phone used to crash if the other person hung up  before you.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> I still don't see why people hate it so much, other than standard anti-microsoft ranting.


I guess it depends on what you want it to do, your user expectations and how lucky you are with your particular model.

Migrating from the Palm, I couldn't believe how fucking fiddly everything was on the Windows phone - the stylus was out of the silo every other minute to do even the simplest of tasks. And it was way wobbly.

And seeing as I was given the latest whizz bang HTC Touch phone (*note to self: must get eBaying soon), I've had chance to try the cutting edge version of Windows and can see already that the iPhone pisses all over it for usability and user-friendliness.

But not price, natch.


----------



## jæd (Jul 6, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> I still don't see why people hate it so much, other than standard anti-microsoft ranting.



Windows Mobile meant I waited at Canary Wharf for 45 mins once in a freezing winter gale because it crashed repeatedly and took something like 15 mins to reboot a phone. I only met my friend because when I was walking back to the tube station I bumped into him.

So I might not be very gushing about it...!


----------



## jæd (Jul 6, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> y.
> And seeing as I was given the latest whizz bang HTC Touch phone (*note to self: must get eBaying soon), I've had chance to try the cutting edge version of Windows and can see already that the iPhone pisses all over it for usability and user-friendliness.



Was it WM 6...? Is it any good...?


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Was it WM 6...? Is it any good...?


Yes. Their half arsed attempt to rip off Apple (or whoever it was who originally came up with the idea) with the gesture-based screen navigation runs rapidly out of steam after a few screens and then you're back to the stylus-tastic itty-bitty WM2006 interface. 

The phone feels absolutely lovely in the hand though, the camera's alright but the lack of a keyboard means it's a pain to use.

Some bloke's done a comprehensive 3-part review here: 
http://digital-lifestyles.info/2007/06/22/htc-touch-phone-review/
http://digital-lifestyles.info/2007/06/25/htc-touch-phone-review-part-23/
http://digital-lifestyles.info/2007/06/26/htc-touch-phone-review-part-33-62/


----------



## jæd (Jul 6, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Yes. Their half arsed attempt to rip off Apple (or whoever it was who originally came up with the idea) with the gesture-based screen navigation runs rapidly out of steam after a few screens and then you're back to the stylus-tastic itty-bitty WM2006 interface.



Hmmm... Was more after a review Windows Mobile 6... A friend has a PocketPC and is raving about it... (Windows Mobile 6).


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 6, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Migrating from the Palm, I couldn't believe how fucking fiddly everything was on the Windows phone - the stylus was out of the silo every other minute to do even the simplest of tasks.


My Vario II has a click/scroll whell, which means you can whizz about and almost never have to use the stylus.  Couple that with a full qwerty keyboard and its a winner in my book 

Maybe I've been lucky, I dunno, but my windows desktop machine has never once crashed either.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Hmmm... Was more after a review Windows Mobile 6... A friend has a PocketPC and is raving about it... (Windows Mobile 6).


There's not a great deal of difference between WM5, to be honest.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> My Vario II has a click/scroll whell, which means you can whizz about and almost never have to use the stylus.  Couple that with a full qwerty keyboard and its a winner in my book


If you like slidy-out keyboards that need two hands to operate them, of course.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 6, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> If you like slidy-out keyboards that need two hands to operate them, of course.


True, but for fast typing I'd want to use two thumbs anyway, I can input stuff at a surprisingly high rate now, the keyboard has quite a nice feel to it.

Horses for courses, innit?


----------



## tarannau (Jul 6, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Somebody mentioned before that the batteries were welded in place and we couldn't work out why.
> Now we know why. So that they can sting the consumer for changing them.



What a load of emotive, unsupported bollocks. Or maybe, just maybe, they've fitted in the biggest battery possible in a small space, along with an impressive feat of miniturisation fitting all the components into such a small space. If you look at pics of the iphone opened up you'll soon see there isn't a huge amount of space to play with.

Besides, it's nonsense to suggest that other companies won't spring up to offer iphone battery replacement services at lower cost or self-install kits, just as they have with the ipod. Some won't offer the luxury or slickness of Apple's expensive repair programme (where a box is sent to you first, the whole package picked up by courier, then further returned by another courier) but I very much doubt that it's the evil conspiracy some are alleging.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 6, 2007)

Ach, it is the Cult of the Anti-Mac, is all. Doesn't matter. Diversity of platforms, devices and operating systems is the only way to protect against malware and so on. Anything that chips at the Microsoft hegemony should be welcomed. But this has had the effect of turning some Windows users into something that's very similar to the cliched, frequently trotted-out notion of the rabid Apple fan-boy.
History repeats itself, but it's not always exactly the same.
I blame that timey-wimey nonsense.
Peace.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 6, 2007)

gah misread...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 6, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> If you like slidy-out keyboards that need two hands to operate them, of course.



I've never understood why this is such a low point.  I've never needed to be able to send an email/text one handed while on a bike etc!


----------



## asbestos (Jul 6, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> History repeats itself, but it's not always exactly the same.



Y by a Mac??? PC'z r Cheeper!!!! lol!!1!





*cut's off own head*


----------



## jæd (Jul 6, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I've never understood why this is such a low point.  I've never needed to be able to send an email/text one handed while on a bike etc!



I tend to use two hands (ie, two thumbs) to type emails on my Treo. You can do it with one hand, though. Its just easy with two...


----------



## jæd (Jul 6, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> Maybe I've been lucky, I dunno, but my windows desktop machine has never once crashed either.



What, never...? If you can do that magic with other o/s I'm sure a lot of companies would employ you...!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 6, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> I tend to use two hands (ie, two thumbs) to type emails on my Treo. You can do it with one hand, though. Its just easy with two...



Sure...but the Ed always seems to make this point that if you can't type one handed its a big downpoint. Always been puzzled by that...


----------



## Crispy (Jul 6, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> What, never...? If you can do that magic with other o/s I'm sure a lot of companies would employ you...!


Well, I've had applications crash on my mac (mostly MS office) but the OSX has always been able to kill misbehaving processes and I haven't had a single genuine OS crash. Just saying that has jinxed it of course.


----------



## Gromit (Jul 6, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> What a load of emotive, unsupported bollocks.



Okay i was stiring a bit. Its more likely just to keep the manufacturing costs down on what is already going to be an expensive product. 

Why bother to engineer a removable battery compartment when you will be wanting people to buy the next version of iPhone before the battery runs out? 

Doesn't take into account consumers like me who don't swap their phones out merely because something with more toys comes along. Or people who buy second hand. Phones are seen too much as disposable fashion items to my mind.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jul 6, 2007)

I love my iPhone, but....

no scientific calculator!!!!  Whatever editor says about the Treo, the calculator was the best bit.  The iPhone one is shit.....just a basic one....no logs or sines and no cool unit converter...

I'm also going to have to transfer all my contacts one v-card at a time (but this is palm's fault as it won't export multiple v-cards as far as I can see- it's an evil conspiracy to prevent you from migrating to other platforms, obviously)


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I've never needed to be able to send an email/text one handed while on a bike etc!


Really? I'm often sending out texts while holding a pint, standing in queues holding stuff etc etc


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Ach, it is the Cult of the Anti-Mac, is all.


Aw, those poor Apple users! So persecuted! So put upon. I don't know how some users manage to _bravely battle on_ sometimes, I really don't.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> What, never...? If you can do that magic with other o/s I'm sure a lot of companies would employ you...!


To be honest, I really can't remember the last time my XP machine crashed, it's been that long.

I've had individual programs crash from time to time though, but unlike W95/W98, it very rarely takes the OS down with it.


----------



## tarannau (Jul 6, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Okay i was stiring a bit. Its more likely just to keep the manufacturing costs down on what is already going to be an expensive product.
> 
> Why bother to engineer a removable battery compartment when you will be wanting people to buy the next version of iPhone before the battery runs out?
> 
> Doesn't take into account consumers like me who don't swap their phones out merely because something with more toys comes along. Or people who buy second hand. Phones are seen too much as disposable fashion items to my mind.



More unsupported cack. It's more likely, for better or worse, to maintain the smooth lines and aesthetics of an Ive product. That and the fact that to make it user accessible would have potentially involved internal compromises in a impressively small piece of kit. 

I've got a friend who's still using his 1st generation chunky ipod.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 6, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> What, never...?


Nope, not once.  I've had Cubase crash on me once, when I was intentionally being silly and seeing just how many reverb plugsins I could run before it fell over, but even that didn't affect the OS, I foced a shutdown of the application and the machine carried on just fine.


----------



## jæd (Jul 6, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> To be honest, I really can't remember the last time my XP machine crashed, it's been that long.
> 
> I've had individual programs crash from time to time though, but unlike W95/W98, it very rarely takes the OS down with it.



Well yes... These days most crashes (Xp or otherwise) are usually down to hardware failure. (Which is why I was surprised the poster had never had one...)


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 6, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Well yes... These days most crashes (Xp or otherwise) are usually down to hardware failure. (Which is why I was surprised the poster had never had one...)


Never had a hardware failure either - I've had the machine for over 3 years, it gets lots of use (it pays the bills) and nothing has ever gone wrong


----------



## rocketman (Jul 6, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Aw, those poor Apple users! So persecuted! So put upon. I don't know how some users manage to _bravely battle on_ sometimes, I really don't.



Low wit.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Low wit.


Slow twit.
Terwit terwooh.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 6, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Slow twit.



Handbags at dawn, luvvie.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 6, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Really? I'm often sending out texts while holding a pint, standing in queues holding stuff etc etc



Yeah I just put the pint down. Queues? Can't think of how many times I've had to hold much while standing in line to buy cinema tickets...


----------



## Dask (Jul 6, 2007)

Both my XP and OS X machines hardly ever crash, I think I can't remember the last time either of them went down.

I've had to force quit applications that had frozen on both of them, but the OS had never gone done.

The installation of XP I have is only 2 1/2 months old but my old 2000 system crashed about twice in 6 years.

I don't know why but in alot of respects 2000 felt/feels more solid to me.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 6, 2007)

Heh I remember a few years back when I'd just bought a laptop (powerful fucker it was at the time) and a mate bought a Mac laptop (same specs as mine with the exception of having 2 hours more on the battery life but having to pay £600 extra) he was showing it off to me. He, smugly, pointed out how unstable my XP machine would be next to his stable mac. I picked the machine up and started to have a look at applications to get a feel for how Macs do things and within five minutes it froze and crashed!


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Handbags at dawn, luvvie.


Gladrags are born.


----------



## Dask (Jul 6, 2007)

There you go, just goes to show that their still only computers and subject to doing computery things like crashing.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Yeah I just put the pint down.


Would have been a bit tricky at Glasto, that. Or half time at footie matches. Or in a packed pub. Or cycling my bike (along a Sustrans route, safety fans!).


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 6, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Would have been a bit tricky at Glasto, that. Or half time at footie matches. Or in a packed pub. Or cycling my bike (along a Sustrans route, safety fans!).



Or the other one I use is "Hold this for a sec"...but I guess I don't get quite the same level of must answer texts/emails while I'm out having fun.


----------



## jæd (Jul 9, 2007)

IPhone pricing & availability is here : http://www.electronista.com/articles/07/07/06/amazon.uk.lists.iphone/

Dec 1st @ £329 ($662) for 8Gb...


----------



## Crispy (Jul 9, 2007)

Sounds like that's inc. VAT, as £329 divided by 1.175 (VAT = 17.5%) is a nice round £280


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Sounds like that's inc. VAT, as £329 divided by 1.175 (VAT = 17.5%) is a nice round £280


Well it does say, "the 8GB version has been listed at £329 ($662) that *may* include the country's VAT tax"

I think that £330's a bit rich for me for a phone. Even a Treo!


----------



## Crispy (Jul 9, 2007)

Just an informed guess on my part there.
And yes, that's a lot for a phone. An 8GB iPod nano is £130 from Amazon (£170 direct from Apple) so you're paying at most £200 extra for the phone and other functions.


----------



## jæd (Jul 9, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Just an informed guess on my part there.
> And yes, that's a lot for a phone. An 8GB iPod nano is £130 from Amazon (£170 direct from Apple) so you're paying at most £200 extra for the phone and other functions.



Give it about 6 months and you'll probably have them free on contract...!


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Just an informed guess on my part there.
> And yes, that's a lot for a phone. An 8GB iPod nano is £130 from Amazon (£170 direct from Apple) so you're paying at most £200 extra for the phone and other functions.


Thing is, if I had a phone that costs that much, I'd be really wary of taking it with me all the time, which kind of defeats the whole point of having a good phone in the first place.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 9, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Give it about 6 months and you'll probably have them free on contract...!



I reckon so too.


----------



## cybertect (Jul 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Well it does say, "the 8GB version has been listed at £329 ($662) that *may* include the country's VAT tax"
> 
> I think that £330's a bit rich for me for a phone. Even a Treo!



ISTR paying something close to that for my Treo 300 the day it came on the market in the UK.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Thing is, if I had a phone that costs that much, I'd be really wary of taking it with me all the time, which kind of defeats the whole point of having a good phone in the first place.



I paid just under £300 for my iPod and I take it with me pretty everywhere I go no probs...


----------



## Crispy (Jul 9, 2007)

Still at least double the most expensive smartphone & billing plan I could find on eg. the Orange website. But there's no way the UK phone market can maintain a price like that, when nearly everything else is subsidised to FREE! The price will come down.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2007)

As I speculated it looks like there's a possibility of an iPhone Nano:



> MAKER OF  entertainment gear, Apple is planning to release a cheaper Iphone based on the Ipod Nano.
> 
> According to a JP Morgan report Apple has filed a patent application document dated July 5 that refers to a multi functional hand held device with a circular touch pad control, similar to the Nano's scroll wheel.
> 
> ...


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

No kidding 'limited functionality' - the touch wheel would be a rather limited input device for a phone.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Jul 10, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> No kidding 'limited functionality' - the touch wheel would be a rather limited input device for a phone.


Worked in the old days though. Finger on wheel, pull round to the right number.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> Worked in the old days though. Finger on wheel, pull round to the right number.


After you on the rotary dial to enter text messages then


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jul 10, 2007)

The anti-iphone 

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2986976174.html


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Jul 10, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> After you on the rotary dial to enter text messages then


 Could still work but yeah, pain in the arse.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 10, 2007)

Depends how they develop the interface. It's a rumour, but is very likely


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2007)

Another rumour, big update coming for the iPhone, including things like adding Copy and Paste (which some have complained about on here too)...


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2007)

There's a big review here with a massive hands on guide:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/apple/no-bs-iphone-review-276116.php

*goes off to read

adds: Blimey. He's a lively one alright:



> So are you returning this thing [the iPhone]?
> I should, but no. Don't look at me that way, let me explain. Look at other handsets from Nokia, Helio, Palm, Sony Ericsson, LG and Samsung; or anything running the vomit-inducing Windows Mobile. What they generally have over the iPhone, all these critical but technically minor functions, the iPhone could theoretically fix with a patch or two. Meanwhile, those companies in turn will never be able to make as great a UI and platform as the iPhone has the potential to be.


Funny too: 





> This Notes app is useful in the same way that a man dying of hunger eats rats and berries—you can't be choosy when it's all you've got. In the absence of voice notes, to-do lists, and Microsoft Word support, Notes is the only place in the entire phone that you can actually take down notes (unless you count writing an email to yourself). And thanks to the fact that it doesn't actually SYNC to anything through iTunes (not even to the Notes in Mail.app under Leopard yet), it stays on your phone until you delete it.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Another rumour, big update coming for the iPhone, including things like adding Copy and Paste (which some have complained about on here too)...


Not a surprise.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Not a surprise.



Yeah...almost a dead cert we'll see at 3G version over then...


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2007)

ruffneck23 said:
			
		

> The anti-iphone
> 
> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2986976174.html


They haven't exactly learnt from Apple's consumer-wooing interface, have they?


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Yeah...almost a dead cert we'll see at 3G version over then...


*hand waggle*
not so sure about that, not this soon anyway.

LOL at the linuxphone  that interface is exactly how I'd imagine it. Very shiny, but still windows 3.1 design basics.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> There's a big review here with a massive hands on guide:
> http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/apple/no-bs-iphone-review-276116.php
> 
> *goes off to read
> ...



Jesus, now the following is a big thing for me, I send a lot of multi recipient texts (the n73 allows you to create groups so I can text various people, friends, family, associates, work peeps in one go), not being able to do that is a pain...



> [No] Sending an SMS to more than one recipient at a time.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> *hand waggle*
> not so sure about that, not this soon anyway.



I dunno I reckon we will...


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

I've got 5p here says we won't. man enough to put up yours?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> I've got 5p here says we won't. man enough to put up yours?



You're on! 5p that the UK release later this year of the iPhone will have 3g functionality.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

woah woah, uk release?

ach. I've got £5 that the iphone will make my breakfast by 2012. Now that's a man's bet.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> woah woah, uk release?
> 
> ach. I've got £5 that the iphone will make my breakfast by 2012. Now that's a man's bet.



LOL!


----------



## rocketman (Jul 10, 2007)

Here's a rumour - iPhone to gain many new features in future software updates.

Some of these could be quite good - photo sharing, iChat support, iWork integration and so on, others should perhaps have existed before release.

Anyway, for those interested, here be the linky
http://www.pdalive.com/showarticle.php?threadid=13781


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Jul 10, 2007)

Hmmm, a cunning way to prolong the marketing hype? After all they knew all the launch units would go like hotcakes no matter what was in the box. Or just lucky for apple...


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> Hmmm, a cunning way to prolong the marketing hype? After all they knew all the launch units would go like hotcakes no matter what was in the box. Or just lucky for apple...


Pretty standard MO for apple - OSX 10.0 and the 1G iPod lacked some pretty important functionality as well.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jul 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> They haven't exactly learnt from Apple's consumer-wooing interface, have they?



ah but its all open source , so someone will soon change all that


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2007)

ruffneck23 said:
			
		

> ah but its all open source , so someone will soon change all that


Yes. I'm sure some spoddy bloke will be along to update the interface right up to a glossy Windows 98 look shortly.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

Apart from simple programs that have simple interfaces by default, I have not seen any open-source program with the sort of UI thought and polish that apple (among others) does. It really does require very intelligent design and overarching control of application design to pull off, and I don't think the open source model applie very well to that sort of project.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Here's a rumour - iPhone to gain many new features in future software updates.
> 
> Some of these could be quite good - photo sharing, iChat support, iWork integration and so on, others should perhaps have existed before release.
> 
> ...




*points--->http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6205256&postcount=492


----------



## rocketman (Jul 10, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> *points--->http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6205256&postcount=492



Oops. missed that 'un with all the discussion of non-iPhones in the thread.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Oops. missed that 'un with all the discussion of non-iPhones in the thread.


----------



## cybershot (Jul 10, 2007)

Can't be arsed to read the last few days posts, but apparently a new 'nano' version is already in the pipeline for a release before Christmas in the States.

Bet those 2 year contract customers are already pissed.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2007)

ade said:
			
		

> Can't be arsed to read the last few days posts



How about two posts above yours?


----------



## jæd (Jul 10, 2007)

Apparently, there's going to be a Nano^h^h... 

Hmmm... Well if those new features are implemented, as well as a SDK the iPhone will be a nice phone...


----------



## cybershot (Jul 10, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> How about two posts above yours?



That was a link, that's cheating. DO'H


----------



## mauvais (Jul 10, 2007)

Good open source interfaces - Ubuntu? Does that count?


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

mauvais said:
			
		

> Good open source interfaces - Ubuntu? Does that count?


I've used it and it's ok. Still feels like any windows, icons, menus and pointer UI from the last 20 years though.

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/iphone-review.ars/14
there's an interesting page form the Ars Technica iphone review:


> The IC in the lower-left is purported to be a Multimedia Engine by Infineon by several sources. However, the markings on this device do not match up with any Infineon devices as far as we could tell. This particular part is a jack-of-all trades that can decode/encode audio formats, decode H.264 video, perform EDGE modem capabilities, and interface with Bluetooth, FM radio, and other systems, as well as drive the camera and the high-resolution display. Interestingly enough, the data sheet for this device claims that it is *3G upgradable and contains a WCDMA coprocessor.*


----------



## jæd (Jul 10, 2007)

mauvais said:
			
		

> Good open source interfaces - Ubuntu? Does that count?



Um... The default ui is actually Gnome...


----------



## mauvais (Jul 10, 2007)

There's just little touches in that that seem to have Innovation. Rockbox (MP3 player OS) is another one though inherently it's fairly simple.


----------



## stdPikachu (Jul 10, 2007)

ruffneck23 said:
			
		

> ah but its all open source , so someone will soon change all that



Is it? I thought most of the protocols for the iPhone were closed, else I would have expected it to work with Linux from launch day, which AFAICT hasn't happened. I haven't been following it too closely though, as the idea of switching networks just to get a new phone seems ridiculous to me.




			
				Crispy said:
			
		

> Apart from simple programs that have simple interfaces by default, I have not seen any open-source program with the sort of UI thought and polish that apple (among others) does. It really does require very intelligent design and overarching control of application design to pull off, and I don't think the open source model applie very well to that sort of project.



If it wasn't such a hassle, I'd recommend you install some apps like Kontact and Amarok to see, IMHO, open source software with really good interfaces, at least as far as I'm concerned. All of those apps coded in some basement tend to have shitty interfaces, whilst large projects like KDE and Gnome have very strict interface guidelines which goes some way to meet up with Apple's top-down design philosophy.

Disclaimer: although I love the OSX desktop, I'm of the opinion that alot of Apple software has clunky interfaces. I can't stand itunes for example, as I just can't figure out how it's supposed to work.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> Is it? I thought most of the protocols for the iPhone were closed, else I would have expected it to work with Linux from launch day, which AFAICT hasn't happened. I haven't been following it too closely though, as the idea of switching networks just to get a new phone seems ridiculous to me.[q/uote]
> He was talking about the linuxphone thingy
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jul 10, 2007)

its not an i-phone...

here is a much better link , i think the last one was a bit older 

http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-base-02-screenshots.html

id rather one of these just for the affordable built in gprs


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2007)

ade said:
			
		

> That was a link, that's cheating. DO'H



All is fair in love and u75 posting.


----------



## untethered (Jul 10, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> If it wasn't such a hassle, I'd recommend you install some apps like Kontact and Amarok to see, IMHO, open source software with really good interfaces, at least as far as I'm concerned. All of those apps coded in some basement tend to have shitty interfaces, whilst large projects like KDE and Gnome have very strict interface guidelines which goes some way to meet up with Apple's top-down design philosophy.



Amarok has an atrocious interface.

The menu with the player controls is called "Engage", the tab with the track/artist info is called "Context" and there's no keyboard shortcut for play/pause.

I quit the KDE desktop after about five years for GNOME. I was sick of the bugs and the option-frenzy.

The default GNOME desktop for Ubuntu is pretty good.

The point about open source isn't whether a "spoddy bloke" will design a tawdry interface for it; it's whether someone with a clue has the freedom to make it good.

As an ex-Mac user, Apple aren't above some dodgy UI decisions, too. OSX dock, anyone?


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

I quite like the dock, although I wish it had a built in pop-up for Applications. I right click an Alias which I've stuck next to the trash, but it's not ideal.

The 'stacks' in Leopard might help out there.

Other bad apple UI things:

Icons in mail.app are all in little buttons, completely unlike all the other buttons with clear colour snd outlines. I read about this somewhere else and it always bugs me.

Clicking the + in itunes _shrinks_ the window. Wha?


----------



## tarannau (Jul 10, 2007)

I don't know, I've kind of warmed to the Dock. It works better when you've got a larger monitor - be interesting to see how the improvements in Leopard work out.

Besides Vista now seems to boast a compromised version of the same kind of dock, along with the illogical 'start' bar as well.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> I don't know, I've kind of warmed to the Dock. It works better when you've got a larger monitor - be interesting to see how the improvements in Leopard work out.


Much as I admire many aspects of Apple's GUI, that toytown animated dock really was hideous.   

Come to think of it, my Amiga had a dock way back when, and I didn't care for that much either.

But let's quit carping and all singalong to the Amiga Song!


----------



## untethered (Jul 10, 2007)

The dock is based on a false premise: applications start instantly.

If this were true, the dock would be fine. There would even be no need for the little triangle marker to show which applications are actually launched.

As it is, starting an application has a time delay and a cost and a UI element that pretends that it doesn't is pretty poor.

Show me my launched apps in one place and unlaunched apps somewhere else. Make the distinction blindingly obvious.


----------



## stdPikachu (Jul 10, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> I'll have to walk you through it someday. The only thing that's not great is sometimes it's not obvious what playlist/selection is currently being played. It's not the disconnect from the filesystem that confuses you is it?



Nah, the disconnect from the filesystem is fine (Amarok does a similar thing in the library browser), my main gripes are that I can't figure out how to, e.g., drag a bunch of files into a playlist and have them play. The playlist seems to contain everything on your collection and you can only filter by artist or whatever. How do you say I want to play the rest of this album, and then play the rest of the playlist randomly? In short, I just don't think I get it.




			
				untethered said:
			
		

> Amarok has an atrocious interface.
> 
> The menu with the player controls is called "Engage"



Granted, this is just silly, and proves that too much Star Trek softens the brain. Although I don't think "File" made much sense for that menu either.




			
				untethered said:
			
		

> the tab with the track/artist info is called "Context" and there's no keyboard shortcut for play/pause.



TBH, I think the context tab makes sense because it's contextual information about the file/stream being played, and then more contextual information about stuff associated with the file/stream being played. I can't really think of a better way to describe that succinctly.

There's definitely a play/pause shortcut somewhere (although I did set mine up manually WRT the multimedia keyboard).




			
				untethered said:
			
		

> The default GNOME desktop for Ubuntu is pretty good.



Much like yourself and KDE I imagine, I find using Gnome like root canal work without anaesthetic 

Anyway, I'm drifting off topic. Does anyone know if the iPhone will be usable as a 3G/GPRS modem in the EU? IIRC this functionality isn't available in the US version, but surely that's just a software limitation, no?


----------



## mauvais (Jul 10, 2007)

Oh yeah - Eclipse. Sets the bar in many ways. Firefox still beats Safari IMO and there's other good things based on it, like Songbird, which I've not seen enough of yet.


----------



## tarannau (Jul 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Much as I admire many aspects of Apple's GUI, that toytown animated dock really was hideous.
> 
> Come to think of it, my Amiga had a dock way back when, and I didn't care for that much either.
> 
> But let's quit carping and all singalong to the Amiga Song!




You can turn the animation off or hide the entire dock if you choose - that's always been an option. 

The animated nonsense may be a gimmick, but it's alright for a more casual user like me - and, sadly or not, MicroShaft seem intent on adding even more useless animation fripperies throughout Vista.

I don't get the Dock's inconsistent if it doesn't open the applications immediately theory either - it's just a representation of your most used applications, not proof that they're all up and running.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

First thing I did was turn the dock animation off. If you use the Quicklaunch icons in Windows (I do) then the dock is a simple extension of that. And exposé is a much nicer way of switching between open windows - one button to see _all_ open windows, another to see all open windows for the current app. I really miss it in windows.


----------



## jæd (Jul 10, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> The dock is based on a false premise: applications start instantly.
> 
> If this were true, the dock would be fine.



Which is why the icons bounce for a bit...




			
				untethered said:
			
		

> Show me my launched apps in one place and unlaunched apps somewhere else. Make the distinction blindingly obvious.



Eh...? There's a large back arrow stuck right by them... I've never had a problem determing which apps are running...


----------



## jæd (Jul 10, 2007)

mauvais said:
			
		

> Oh yeah - Eclipse. Sets the bar in many ways....



What the IDE...?  I didn't realise it set bars...! Its a powerful IDE but using its many perspectives and windows and etc isn't veru obvious sometimes...


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> The animated nonsense may be a gimmick, but it's alright for a more casual user like me - and, sadly or not, MicroShaft seem intent on adding even more useless animation fripperies throughout Vista.


Not sure why you feel compelled to include a free pop at Microsoft with each post, you know.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Not sure why you feel compelled to include a free pop at Microsoft with each post, you know.


Because he's a a rabid apple fanboi, just like me! And we're going to drown the boards in an ocean of propaganda! Mwahahahaha!


----------



## Xanadu (Jul 10, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> The animated nonsense may be a gimmick, but it's alright for a more casual user like me - and, sadly or not, MicroShaft seem intent on adding even more useless animation fripperies throughout Vista.



Hmmmm useless animations.... cos that's not something apple would do... oh no, not never....


----------



## tarannau (Jul 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Not sure why you feel compelled to include a free pop at Microsoft with each post, you know.



Same reason why you feel the reason to put a slightly misleading description of the dock I guess, shorn of the information that the 'toytown' animation' was always easily turned off. 

 

I use Windows at work evey day FWIW. The pop(s) I have at that OS are largely based on the the sinking feeling at my looming migration to Vista (currently half on XP)  and its derivative and yet more gimmicky use of animation and transparency.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Because he's a a rabid apple fanboi, just like me! And we're going to drown the boards in an ocean of propaganda! Mwahahahaha!


Can I join in?

The Recycle bin icon sucks!
The folders aren't very pretty!

Take that Gatesy.


----------



## tarannau (Jul 10, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> Hmmmm useless animations.... cos that's not something apple would do... oh no, not never....



Of course, but mac animations are more classily useless...


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

And some are even use_ful_!


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Same reason why you feel the reason to put a slightly misleading description of the dock I guess, shorn of the information that the 'toytown' animation' was always easily turned off.


Nothing 'misleading' about it all. That's what I thought when I first saw a screengrab of the dock and that's what I thought after using it. Sure, it can be turned off - like most graphic bits on most operating systems -  but seeing as it's there in all its toytown glory by default, I feel I'm entitled to express an opinion about it.






			
				tarannau said:
			
		

> The pop(s) I have at that OS are largely based on the the sinking feeling at my looming migration to Vista (currently half on XP)  and its derivative and yet more gimmicky use of animation and transparency.


Errr....but  you can turn off the animation and transparency off in Vista, just like with the Apple dock!


----------



## tarannau (Jul 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Nothing 'misleading' about it all. That's what I thought when I first saw a screengrab of the dock and that's what I thought after using it. Sure, it can be turned off - like most graphic bits on most operating systems -  but seeing as it's there in all its toytown glory by default, I feel I'm entitled to express an opinion about it.Errr....but  you can turn off the animation and transparency off in Vista, just like with the Apple dock!



Mwahahahah. But I can't turn them off really; well not if I want to keep on tutting loudly everytime Vista works its animation tweeness.

Throw us a bone here...


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Throw us a bone here...


Woof!
http://features.engadget.com/2004/06/09/turn-your-pc-into-a-mac/


----------



## Xanadu (Jul 10, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Of course, but mac animations are more classily useless...



touche


----------



## jæd (Jul 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> ...but  you can turn off the animation and transparency off in Vista, just like with the Apple dock!



But then you might just as well use Xp...! 

So... Um... Does the iPhone work with Vista yet...?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 10, 2007)

But will it blend?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 10, 2007)

^ doesn't like the Dock by the way, and apparently it's worse in Leopard

Crispy, you can change the buttons in Mail.app with freeware apps, which is good because they are _utterly fucking horrible_.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 10, 2007)

ooh, which freeware apps?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 10, 2007)

Mailstamps - http://andrewescobar.com/mailstamps

Restores the old decent icons.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2007)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> Restores the old decent icons.


They're quite pretty.

Despite being one of the daddy's of mail apps, Eudora managed to look shit on all platforms for years and years on end. 

It's now given up the fight and gone open source.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 10, 2007)

And now JP Morgan deny previous reports
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=3362584


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> And now JP Morgan deny previous reports


*imagines several frantic competing R&D depts breathing a sigh of relief.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 11, 2007)

Another thing some people wanted the iPhone to be able to do is support Exchange email, good for corporate users. Allegedly, now it does.

http://www.synchronica.com/news/070711-synchronica-syncs-apple-iphone-to-microsoft-exchange.shtml


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 11, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Another thing some people wanted the iPhone to be able to do is support Exchange email, good for corporate users. Allegedly, now it does.
> 
> http://www.synchronica.com/news/070711-synchronica-syncs-apple-iphone-to-microsoft-exchange.shtml



In a sense all the naysayers are just providing free market research for Apple. When they should and scream about what the iPhone can't do you can bet somewhere inside Apple someone is taking notes....


----------



## rocketman (Jul 11, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> In a sense all the naysayers are just providing free market research for Apple. When they should and scream about what the iPhone can't do you can bet somewhere inside Apple someone is taking notes....



I reckon some in Apple r&d may even have a smattering of knowledge about Linux, Unix, open source solutions they could perhaps get involved with
http://www.apple.com/opensource/


----------



## Crispy (Jul 11, 2007)

I'm even more willing to bet that such a list already exists, and they arbitrarily cut it off at one point, polished what was left and released it as v1.0 - I bet there's plenty of features for the iphone that already work, but haven't been sent through for final approval and update yet.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 11, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> I'm even more willing to bet that such a list already exists, and they arbitrarily cut it off at one point, polished what was left and released it as v1.0 - I bet there's plenty of features for the iphone that already work, but haven't been sent through for final approval and update yet.



Yeah. I suspect that some development projects hit some snags - hence the delay of Leopard - and they simply set a schedule to keep to deliver as much as they could to a deadline they had announced. 

I think they'll stagger new (or in some cases, missing features that should really have been implemented at launch) feature releases on some kind of ubiquely regular update cycle in order to maintain interest in the product.

Quite exciting really - I'm anticipating some strong .Mac integration, and some strong improvements to .Mac (online hosted iLife applications, potentially).


----------



## Crispy (Jul 11, 2007)

yeah .mac badly needs an overhaul.


----------



## editor (Jul 11, 2007)

Not being inclined to plug into the whole iLife, iTunes, iRuddy-Everything love-in, I'm more excited by what the industry might come up with in response to the real innovation seen in the iPhone.

Who, knows, it might even wake Palm up from their deep slumbers and maybe even Microsoft will realise that their  Windows mobile interface is as friendly as an angry walrus in a fish-free warehouse*.

(*I'm not quite sure what picture I'm trying to paint here, but I trust you'll get my drift)


----------



## rocketman (Jul 11, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> yeah .mac badly needs an overhaul.




Totally does - you can get just as much free online storage from loads of places. Really isn't worth the cash at present. 

But iLife, like OS X and the rest, all of these are messages to the wider industry to get their act together.

Trouble with most firms in the smartphone sector is they are product manufacturers, rather than software developers - they must be, or they would have got it right by now, they have had a decade or two to get it right.

(Excepts Palm from list)

However, many smartphone developers are hampered by the demands of the mobile networks, who demand the devices they carry work within certain limits they set.

Apple's deal with AT&T allowed a rare thing - Apple got to innovate withoug (much) interference.

if innovation is going to happen, then freeing smartphone developers from interference by the networks is critical.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 11, 2007)

I hope so. The iphone isn't for everyone, but its innovations should be.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 11, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> I'm even more willing to bet that such a list already exists, and they arbitrarily cut it off at one point, polished what was left and released it as v1.0 - I bet there's plenty of features for the iphone that already work, but haven't been sent through for final approval and update yet.



Makes sense. The marketing department would love that. It means that they have a batches of updates for Jobbo to do his 'one more thing' at Apple shows etc for the next couple of years...


----------



## Structaural (Jul 11, 2007)

I couldn't believe how much Apple wants for .mac - 99$ for a year and that's single user. 
Piss off - I get twice as much storage on my free gmail.com and 4 times as much storage for a quarter of the price on my domain.

Now I own a Mac iCan hate Apple now.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 11, 2007)

It'd be nice if there were alternatives to .mac that played nicely with the mac software. I have my google calendar and mail synced to mail and ical, but it's not perfect.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 11, 2007)

Oh I wrote something about this one time - there is some stuff that does this...(it's around a year old this, so there may be better solutions now)....

digs stuff out....
Have you looked at SyncTogether - http://www.mildmanneredindustries.com/

This will let you sync data between multiple macs and more, I believe

Firefox users could consider the Google Browser Sync plug-in (http://tinyurl.com/g9lb5). This syncs bookmarks, cookies, open tabs, history, passwords, and more.

For storage I like Box.net, iBackUp (fee-based) and MediaMax (25GB of free storage space).

You can use Box.net to sync iCal calendars with other users, as it's servers are WebDAV-enabled:

1. Publish your calendar from within iCal. (Calendar>Publish) to https://www.box.net/dav, and using your box.net account name and password.
2. Subscribe to the calendar in iCal (Calendar -> Subscribe) at http://www.box.net/dav/Your_Calendar.ics.

For free back-up try iBackup
www.grapefruit.ch, free

Oh there's more.
Off-topic so I'll stop now.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 11, 2007)

No 2-way calendar sync though  - I have to have seperate google and home calendars, and they can only be edited in their respective sources.


----------



## Structaural (Jul 11, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Oh I wrote something about this one time - there is some stuff that does this...(it's around a year old this, so there may be better solutions now)....
> 
> digs stuff out....
> Have you looked at SyncTogether - http://www.mildmanneredindustries.com/
> ...



Cheers for that.


----------



## rocketman (Jul 11, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> No 2-way calendar sync though  - I have to have seperate google and home calendars, and they can only be edited in their respective sources.



Yeah, but I have this feeling I came across something on this one time, take a look at that SyncTogether thing as I have a feeling it 'may' (meaning it also may not) do this....

I know it's annoying, but hopefully of some help.


----------



## editor (Jul 11, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> No 2-way calendar sync though  - I have to have seperate google and home calendars, and they can only be edited in their respective sources.


That's a *major* deal-breaking omission, even for version 1, just like the inability to send off SMS messages to multiple recipients.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 11, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> That's a *major* deal-breaking omission, even for version 1, just like the inability to send off SMS messages to multiple recipients.


I'm talking about my home iCal and Google Calendars here - bit OT 

The iphone syncs its calendars just fine.


----------



## editor (Jul 17, 2007)

Here's an interesting article which explains why Apple haven't gone the 3G route (size/battery issues) and why a 3G iPhone looks a bit unlikely at the moment.
http://anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3036


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 17, 2007)

Yeah a few blogs/podcasts have mentioned the battery thing...


----------



## Sunray (Jul 17, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Here's an interesting article which explains why Apple haven't gone the 3G route (size/battery issues) and why a 3G iPhone looks a bit unlikely at the moment.
> http://anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3036



Its a very poor argument, just because at the time something does not meet your design criteria, does not mean it won't before you get to the manufacturing stage.

What a shitty 3G phone to use to compare.  The SE Walkman phone is 3G and thats tiny with a decent battery life. I would say that it had about the same the time to market as the iPhone.


----------



## kyser_soze (Jul 17, 2007)

I'm waiting for the iToast and iDoTheWashingForYou and the iInappropriateCapitalisation add-ons...


----------



## dogmatique (Jul 17, 2007)

The iPhone is a piece of shit and so is your face


----------



## editor (Jul 17, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> The iPhone is a piece of shit and so is your face





> The Nokia E70 not only plays mp3s, video, has a full browser and Wi-Fi, IMAP and POP3 email, and Google Maps, but you can even run terminal software to telnet or SSH into remote servers. What that means in non-geek is that my phone is invincible. I can literally do anything. I can reboot my web server if I want, and sometimes I do just because I can:


Fantastic!


----------



## WWWeed (Jul 17, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> The iPhone is a piece of shit and so is your face


I have to say that site did make me chuckle, espesually this bit:


> When the iPhone was first announced, CEO Steve Jobs spewed enough BS to cover a football field full of babies 3 feet deep in bullshit, which sounds cool because he could have potentially murdered a football field full of babies, but he passed on this opportunity by introducing the phone instead.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2007)

The phone's apparently been hacked so it'll now work on any network.
I don't think AT&T will be too chuffed but it'll send cash tills ringing for Apple.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/24/iphone-unlocked-atandt-loses-iphone-exclusivity-august-24-2007/


----------



## Rikbikboo (Aug 26, 2007)

we have just gotten our hands on an iphone. some of the things it does are sweeeet. google earth on it is awsome . zooming in and out using two fingers. and now some smart ass teenager has just succeeded in unlocking the iphone  http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=52c_1188010946

so i shall be unlocking mine in a few days and using it.

sweet

and here is a site offering free unlocking to the 1st few ppl that contact them


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 9, 2007)

*European iPhones Coming. Rocking the 16GB 3G Specs?*

It's gonna be 3g according to this newish and rather good Apple rumour site:



> MacBidouille, an excellent French-language Macintosh site, has posted what they say is a leaked advertisement for the Tmobile iPhone in Germany.  Of note, the specs indicate 3G speeds and a 16GB capacity.  These specs are in line with our reports from August from our sources within Orange, the French national telecom.   They also stated that the Germans and British would get the iPhones slightly before the French were ready to roll it out.
> 
> 
> While this image could easily be a fake (they at one point call it an iPod in the advertisement), the specs are likely to be realistic as the next iteration of iPhone will likely match the *iPod*touch's 16GB capacity.  Additionally, with 3G phones all but ubiquitous in Europe, it would be an embarrassment for Apple to release a EDGE-only phone.  The price point also make sense when one takes into account the Euro/Dollar exchange rate and the absurd VAT Tax rates that add close to 20% of the cost...  There has still been no mention of possible GPS capability.


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2007)

Rikbikboo said:
			
		

> we have just gotten our hands on an iphone. some of the things it does are sweeeet. google earth on it is awsome . zooming in and out using two fingers. and now some smart ass teenager has just succeeded in unlocking the ipho


That's all clever and smart and an' that, but realistically how often will you actually feel the need to zoom in and out of a map on your phone?

I mean, I've got GoogleMaps on my phone and I use it a fair bit, but only to see where I am. I can't imagine ever wanting to sit there zooming in and out on any small screen for too long.


----------



## Rikbikboo (Sep 9, 2007)

actually i dont ed. but the mrs loves it for its music properties. she just wabnted to be a smart ass and have one. ffs she cant even put her sim card in it at the moment cos its still locked. 400 quid spunked on nothign really imho.

yeah its a nice gadget for liek 20 mins.  personally ide rather spend the 400 on a new cpu or summat. told her that too.

oh and my sony erricson does everything her iphone does. AND its smaller


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2007)

Rikbikboo said:
			
		

> actually i dont ed. but the mrs loves it for its music properties. she just wanted to be a smart ass and have one.


I'm not going to knock its music playing abilities - iPods make most other players look like clumsy, ill-designed clunk-fests - but punters are still paying a whole load of extra $$$ for some K3w1 eye candy of limited long-term usefulness.

Still, you pays yer money you takes yer choice etc etc*

(* not you personally, but people in general, that is)


----------



## Xanadu (Sep 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> That's all clever and smart and an' that, but realistically how often will you actually feel the need to zoom in and out of a map on your phone?
> 
> I mean, I've got GoogleMaps on my phone and I use it a fair bit, but only to see where I am. I can't imagine ever wanting to sit there zooming in and out on any small screen for too long.



I would kill for a phone with a decent map application.  I'm rather lo-tech at the moment, carrying round a map of london wherever I go.

I hope whatever network the iphone is on has an unlimited data package.


----------



## jæd (Sep 9, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> I would kill for a phone with a decent map application.  I'm rather lo-tech at the moment, carrying round a map of london wherever I go.
> 
> I hope whatever network the iphone is on has an unlimited data package.



What...? Like Google Maps...? Works very nicely on Palm...


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> I would kill for a phone with a decent map application.  I'm rather lo-tech at the moment, carrying round a map of london wherever I go.


You can get both a high quality and comprehensive A-Z road/tube/train/bus that can be stored on your Palm phone and the high tech wonder of GoogleMaps too. In fact, you can get them on most other mobile platforms too.

I can't see why being able to do _cool squeezy finger motions_ will make the Google map application any quicker or any more effective in use.


----------



## Xanadu (Sep 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You can get both a high quality and comprehensive A-Z road/tube/train/bus that can be stored on your Palm phone and the high tech wonder of GoogleMaps too. In fact, you can get them on most other mobile platforms too.
> 
> I can't see why being able to do _cool squeezy finger motions_ will make the Google map application any quicker or any more effective in use.



You obviously haven't been watching the apple adverts!  

You can do cool squeezy finger motions to effectively find where you want to go.  And if you don't know where you want to go, let apple decide for you!  There's probably a Starbucks nearby where you can pop into and buy some new music.  While listening to cool new music and sipping some of the finest coffee that the U.S. has to offer, you might come across a new business idea to make you billions!  Then you'll be able to buy every Mac product we sell, beautiful women will fall into your lap and your life will be complete.  All thanks to iPhone.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 17, 2007)

*O2 wins Apple iPhone deal - at a hefty price*



> With an Apple press conference taking place in London tomorrow, new details are emerging about which mobile operators have bagged the exclusive rights to offer the iPhone across the pond.
> 
> Although previous reports speculated the Cupertino-based company had succeeded in committing European carriers to hand over 10 percent of iPhone revenues derived from phone calls and data functions, The Guardian is now reporting that O2 has agreed to pay Apple a shocking 40 percent of voice and data revenues from iPhone customers, snatching the device away from Orange and T-Mobile in the UK – although elsewhere in Europe T-Mobile and Orange appear to have secured the rights to sell the iPhone.
> 
> Apple's negotiating techniques have been called into question in The Guardian’s report. Apparently, Steve Jobs played the four major European network operators against each other, signing exclusive deals for the British market with three of them only to extract the “money-losing” terms from O2 at the last minute.


Link


----------



## editor (Sep 17, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> You can do cool squeezy finger motions to effectively find where you want to go.  And if you don't know where you want to go, let apple decide for you!  There's probably a Starbucks nearby where you can pop into and buy some new music.  While listening to cool new music and sipping some of the finest coffee that the U.S. has to offer, you might come across a new business idea to make you billions!


Sup. Buy. Repeat.


----------



## Xanadu (Sep 17, 2007)

A little birdie told me that on T-mobile, if you get the web n walk tariff, you get free data on t-mobile networks around the world.  If that's true, I might preemptively pass up on the iphone...


----------



## editor (Sep 17, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> A little birdie told me that on T-mobile, if you get the web n walk tariff, you get free data on t-mobile networks around the world.


Your birdie is twittering 100% bollocks sadly. It's £7.50 per Mb from the US (and boy do I know this).


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2007)

O2 iPhone pricing here: http://shop.o2.co.uk/promo/iphonetariffs

£269 for the phone, cheapest tariff £35/month. Can't see the required length of the contract in there...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 18, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> O2 iPhone pricing here: http://shop.o2.co.uk/promo/iphonetariffs
> 
> £269 for the phone, cheapest tariff £35/month. Can't see the required length of the contract in there...



That actually isn't too bad (was expecting around 300-350), probably be a 18 monther...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 18, 2007)

November 9th according to this:



> iPhone combines a revolutionary mobile phone, widescreen iPod, and breakthrough Internet device into one lightweight handheld device. And it’s coming to the Apple Online Store and Apple Retail Stores in the UK on November 9, 2007, with O2 as the only UK carrier partner.


Link


----------



## fen_boy (Sep 18, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> O2 iPhone pricing here: http://shop.o2.co.uk/promo/iphonetariffs
> 
> £269 for the phone, cheapest tariff £35/month. Can't see the required length of the contract in there...



it's 18 months - http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/18/live-from-apples-mum-is-no-longer-the-word-event-in-london/

e2a updated url


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2007)

That's well pricey for an 18 month/£35 deal. I'd never sign up for such a long time - you'd be kicking yourself when the new model comes out 9 months later.

You can get a free N95 from T Mobile for £45/month with a more generous data/calls deal.


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Sep 18, 2007)

£270 + £35 a month.. too expensive... I'd wait 6 months. I was considering O2 phone as it seems to be the only way to get standing tickets at the dome...


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2007)

bouncer_the_dog said:
			
		

> £270 + £35 a month.. too expensive... I'd wait 6 months. I was considering O2 phone as it seems to be the only way to get standing tickets at the dome...


I see Apple have done the usual dollar exchange rip off deal too. The phone costs more here than it does in the US _before_ the $100 rebate.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 18, 2007)

bouncer_the_dog said:
			
		

> £270 + £35 a month.. too expensive... I'd wait 6 months. I was considering O2 phone as it seems to be the only way to get standing tickets at the dome...



I'm wondering how far the price will drop given how much O2 are paying just to have this..?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 18, 2007)

I'm not surprised the 24 month contract didn't come to pass over here!


----------



## untethered (Sep 18, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I'm wondering how far the price will drop given how much O2 are paying just to have this..?



I read somewhere they're making a loss on the deal. Can't remember where.

It seems likely.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I'm wondering how far the price will drop given how much O2 are paying just to have this..?


Seeing as o2 were squeezed reeeeeal tight by Apple, I wouldn't expect big price cuts any time soon.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 18, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> I read somewhere they're making a loss on the deal. Can't remember where.
> 
> It seems likely.



They're giving 40% of their revenue to Apple! Crazy stuff.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I'm not surprised the 24 month contract didn't come to pass over here!


I've never signed anything more than 12 months. No phone is worth anything more than that.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 18, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Seeing as o2 were squeezed reeeeeal tight by Apple, I wouldn't expect big price cuts any time soon.


If ever. At least on this generation. 

I'd like to know what the details of the deal are; is 02's deal only for this iPhone or a period of time (covering them for any updated ones). If it's the former Apple could fuck them over by just updating and allowing it to be sold on another network...


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I'd like to know what the details of the deal are; is 02's deal only for this iPhone or a period of time (covering them for any updated ones). If it's the former Apple could fuck them over by just updating and allowing it to be sold on another network...


I think Apple have already fucked them over by 'forgetting' to mention that they'd be releasing the new iTouch pod when they were negotiating over the iPhone.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 18, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I think Apple have already fucked them over by 'forgetting' to mention that they'd be releasing the new iTouch pod when they were negotiating over the iPhone.



Not quite the same thing but yeah see your point (although only an idiot wouldn't have been able to see the touch was coming...).


----------



## Xanadu (Sep 18, 2007)

So much for getting an iPhone!  

Any mention of whether it's got 3G?

I can't imagine the iPhone will do particularly well over here with a pricing structure like that.  Are there enough Apple fanboys in the UK to buy it?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 18, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> So much for getting an iPhone!
> 
> Any mention of whether it's got 3G?
> 
> I can't imagine the iPhone will do particularly well over here with a pricing structure like that.  Are there enough Apple fanboys in the UK to buy it?



Not likely to be 3g, its that edge thing, that said doesn't 02 have pretty decent wifi coverage?


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> Any mention of whether it's got 3G?


Nope. No 3G.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 18, 2007)

> "We've created an agreement for 7,500 WiFi spots in the UK



From the engadget linked before...


----------



## YoursTruly (Sep 18, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Not likely to be 3g, its that edge thing, that said doesn't 02 have pretty decent wifi coverage?



On the BBC website it says that wifi is thrown in free....over 2000 hotspots.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 18, 2007)

> *10:19* - Q: 7,000 hotspots in the UK... but are they free?
> 
> Matthew: "Cloud is the WiFi provider, and yes, it's free." Steve goes on to again tout the advantages of WiFi. Matthew nodding head vigorously, "It's a lot faster."



Cloud hotspots are in a number of coffee shops like Costa etc.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2007)

You gotta love the question avoidance of the O2 bloke at the launch today:

Q: Were you aware that the iPod touch was coming out when you were negotiating the iPhone deal?

O2 bloke: "One of the great things about working with Apple is they are always moving forward."


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Sep 18, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I see Apple have done the usual dollar exchange rip off deal too. The phone costs more here than it does in the US _before_ the $100 rebate.



Its also the pre-christmas rip-off. I'd rather have a proper iPod or a PSP than the touch. The iPhone appeals to me because of the phone element.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 18, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You gotta love the question avoidance of the O2 bloke at the launch today:
> 
> Q: Were you aware that the iPod touch was coming out when you were negotiating the iPhone deal?
> 
> O2 bloke: "One of the great things about working with Apple is they are always moving forward."



Yeah just laughed at the that too...



> *10:42* - Q: Unlimited data packages: will those go to other contracts as well?
> 
> Matthew: "On 1st October we'll be rolling those out for all out customers."
> Steve: "It's the future."



That's a good move, the main reason I left 02 (it was a very good network in terms of customer service and network coverage) was the shitty data deals...might go back when my contract is up.


----------



## dogmatique (Sep 18, 2007)

One decent thing to note is that they're introducing new "unlimited" data tarrifs, which they're going to roll out to other non-iphone customers later in the year.

Personally, even as an o2 customer with enough clout to get a hefty discount, I'm hesitant to jump on this as the next generation of the phone can't be that far away - better camera, 3g, GPS?

ETA: Beat me to it!


----------



## jæd (Sep 18, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> One decent thing to note is that they're introducing new "unlimited" data tarrifs, which they're going to roll out to other non-iphone customers later in the year.






			
				dogmatique said:
			
		

> Matthew: "18 months contract. There is a limit: 1,400 internet pages per day would break the deal as part of fair usage agreement." Wait, what?



So its capped at 1.5 Mb a day...?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 18, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> So its capped at 1.5 Mb a day...?



I reckon they'll follow T Mobile's 'fair use' of a gig a month...


----------



## Sunray (Sep 19, 2007)

O2 are mugs.

They can fuck right off if they think that I am going to go for that clearly bad deal.  I shall wait till they are very cheap and don't have to come with an 18 month contract sitting unsold on the Carphone Warehouse shelf.


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

I've been with O2 for about 8 years and my contract is up in November. I'll probably take the £55/month option and an iPhone to see what it's like as I won't move from O2 anyway, it'll be cheaper than the tariff I'm on at the moment.  If it's a shit phone, I'll drop it on ebay or just buy a different phone.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> I've been with O2 for about 8 years and my contract is up in November. I'll probably take the £55/month option and an iPhone to see what it's like ....


You must be made of money!


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> O2 are mugs.
> 
> They can fuck right off if they think that I am going to go for that clearly bad deal.  I shall wait till they are very cheap and don't have to come with an 18 month contract sitting unsold on the Carphone Warehouse shelf.


Although the iPhone should still do pretty well, I fancy that the hefty pricing, sole network and compulsory 18 month contract is going to put a *lot* of people off.

I'll stick to my £20/month unlimited data deal with T Mobile and buy my next mobile, thanks.


----------



## Xanadu (Sep 19, 2007)

I really really can't see this selling well!


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You must be made of money!



My current mobile bills are about £90/month, this contract would be cheaper for me anyhow.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> My current mobile bills are about £90/month, this contract would be cheaper for me anyhow.


Fucking hell. What does that deal give you? Foxy ladies to dial the numbers for you and free dinners?


----------



## Sunray (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Although the iPhone should still do pretty well, I fancy that the hefty pricing, sole network and compulsory 18 month contract is going to put a *lot* of people off.
> 
> I'll stick to my £20/month unlimited data deal with T Mobile and buy my next mobile, thanks.



Given that I'd actually quite like one, if they cant persuade me then how about persuading Joe Public? The same public who got the very able K800i phone for free on a normal 12 month contract.

250 quid + expensive 18 month contract
free + cheap 12 month contract

What O2 always forget is that a lot of Joe Public ask people like me if its any good.


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Fucking hell. What does that deal give you? Foxy ladies to dial the numbers for you and free dinners?



I have a historic crappy business account, spoke to O2 this morning and they're happy to change me over to regular consumer account, clearly it doesn't give me much, hence the need to change


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> I have a historic crappy business account, spoke to O2 this morning and they're happy to change me over to regular consumer account, clearly it doesn't give me much, hence the need to change


I bet they're happy to keep you - I've never known anyone pay so much on a monthly account!

I trust that they aren't expecting you to commit to any time plan as you change tariffs?


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I bet they're happy to keep you - I've never known anyone pay so much on a monthly account!
> 
> I trust that they aren't expecting you to commit to any time plan as you change tariffs?



Dunno, I'll just sign up for the iPhone 18 month deal if I like the phone, I wouldn't move away from O2 regardless, I beleive, and this is purely my opinion that I am not going to argue, that they have by far the best coverage.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> Dunno, I'll just sign up for the iPhone 18 month deal if I like the phone, I wouldn't move away from O2 regardless, I beleive, and this is purely my opinion that I am not going to argue, that they have by far the best coverage.


O2's coverage is good, but if you want the phone for business use, you''d be mad not to look at Vodafone who offer 3G instead of O2's incredibly patchy and much slower EDGE.

I'm very impressed with Vodafone to be honest (I'm testing the Palm 500v on that network now).


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

I don't need it for business, I have Laptops, Blackberrys or whatever for that.

Treebeak constantly has problems with Vodafone and my flatmates always have problems with T-Mobile. As well as the numerous problems I've had over the years with other networks and phones. It's one of those better the devil you know things  

No way am I dropping a year on someone else when technically O2 have been 100% for me, I'll sort the billing out though, been a bit blind to it tbh..


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> I don't need it for business, I have Laptops, Blackberrys or whatever for that.


You can get a much better spec'd phone (albeit not as pretty or shiny) for a whole load less money.

The iPhone hasn't got A2DP, 3G, GPS, push email, MMS, video, video calling,  no memory card storage and you'll be buying a phone comes with closed software and one that locks you into a 18 month deal. 

Sure, it's mighty purdy to look at, but when it comes to actual smartphone functionality, loads of phones do a whole load more for less moolah.

PS I've been on T Mobile for over a decade and have found them fine.


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Sure, it's mighty purdy to look at.



Yes, yes it is. (I'm like a gadget magpie )


----------



## Treebeak (Sep 19, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> Yes, yes it is. (I'm like a gadget magpie )



/nods 

The reason I'm not allowed to leave even a minimal amount of clothing at Kanda's house is cos his cupboards are stuffed with shiny things that he uses a couple of times and then waits for the next shiny thing to come out. 

He has three ipods already.. I dont think its possible for an upgrade come out and he doesnt buy it. You're fighting a losing battle I'm afraid, Ed


----------



## Treebeak (Sep 19, 2007)

P.S Ed, please dont buy any more cameras and show them off on the boards.. Kanda doesnt need more than two!!


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

Treebeak said:
			
		

> P.S Ed, please dont buy any more camera's and show them off on the boards.. Kanda doesnt need more than two!!



  

I was well up for a new camera too!!!


----------



## maximilian ping (Sep 19, 2007)

mmm tasty. 02 have told me i can switch to an iphone contract with no penalty and no charge for the handset despite the fact i'm only 5 months into my current 18 month 02 contract (altho it will cost me a £10 more a month for the same free 600mins, 500 texts).

i think i'm going to go for it. i don't need the phone for business, spend most the time in London, and i reckon it will be a good laugh to have an iphone, altho i might get mugged for it  

Nov 9 - yes please


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

maximilian ping said:
			
		

> i think i'm going to go for it. i don't need the phone for business, spend most the time in London, and i reckon it will be a good laugh to have an iphone, altho i might get mugged for it


That's the trouble with carrying around a hugely  expensive phone: you're always worried that someone's going to nick it - and then there's the fear of damaging the thing.

I've known people persuade themselves that they need a high end phone because they need to have all the techie features with them at all times - and then take their shitty old phone to the pub 'just in case.'


----------



## maximilian ping (Sep 19, 2007)

i would feel like a bit of turnip getting my shiny iphone out on the bus. if i was a phone thief i'd mug me


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

maximilian ping said:
			
		

> i would feel like a bit of turnip getting my shiny iphone out on the bus. if i was a phone thief i'd mug me


Well, there's the rub.

You buy a phone because it can do lots of cool stuff when you're out and about, but then you're unable to do half the cool stuff when you're out and about because you become an instant target for muggers.


----------



## stdPikachu (Sep 19, 2007)

I haven't read nay of the press releases cos this doesn't really interest me that much, but who is atually selling the hardware? Do you buy it in Apple shops as in America, or do you have to buy it through an O2 reseller?

It's just that if you can buy it direct from Apple, surely you can avoid getting into an O2 contract by simply never registering the phone, and then unlocking it to use with the tariff of your choice...?


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

O2, Carphone Warehouse and Apple retail outlets.


----------



## Sunray (Sep 19, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> I haven't read nay of the press releases cos this doesn't really interest me that much, but who is atually selling the hardware? Do you buy it in Apple shops as in America, or do you have to buy it through an O2 reseller?
> 
> It's just that if you can buy it direct from Apple, surely you can avoid getting into an O2 contract by simply never registering the phone, and then unlocking it to use with the tariff of your choice...?



I'd have to piss about getting a 2g SIM again. 3G sim's are different I think, well I got a new sim when I got this phone.

O2 according to the Inquirer are hurriedly upgrading their software across their network to support EDGE.

Its hardly cutting edge in its *phone* operation, its got some nice features but I reckon that once the initial hype has faded, its gonna gather dust on the shelves.  The UK public is quite price sensitive to things like this and they are aiming at the general public price.


----------



## tarannau (Sep 19, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> I
> Its hardly cutting edge in its *phone* operation, its got some nice features but I reckon that once the initial hype has faded, its gonna gather dust on the shelves.  The UK public is quite price sensitive to things like this and they are aiming at the general public price.



I'm sorry, but have you got any proof of this statement? My impression, particularly in terms of consumer electronics, is that the UK isn't that price sensitive at the higher end. The first wave of much belittled (and very pricey) ipods flew off the shelves fun in the UK for example. I've always been led to believe that the UK's actually pretty willing to spend considerable moolah on overpriced first mover/pioneer products.


----------



## stdPikachu (Sep 19, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> I've always been led to believe that the UK's actually pretty willing to spend considerable moolah on overpriced first mover/pioneer products.



I think this is true of the early adopter crowd, but I think alot of tech-savvy gadgety people, such as the Ed, are giving this a wide berth for now. There's a large amount of distrust for single-carrier options as far as mobiles are concerned which the US don't seem to have a problem with.

Time will tell I suppose, but my gut reaction says that Apple/O2's tactics won't go down so well in the UK.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> The first wave of much belittled (and very pricey) ipods flew off the shelves fun in the UK for example. I've always been led to believe that the UK's actually pretty willing to spend considerable moolah on overpriced first mover/pioneer products.


There'll always be some early adopters keen to shell out big bucks for new gizmos, but this is _much _different to the iPod in as much as punters are expected to shell out a lot of wonga for the phone, shift network operators _and _commit to a 18 month contract at a mighty hefty premium.

I imagine the fact that they'll end up with a phone on a network that's considerably slower than the competition might dampen their enthusiasm a tad too.


----------



## tarannau (Sep 19, 2007)

I think you've the target market wrong - they're not aiming for the geek/tech-savvy crowd, who've got products they can use already with a little tinkering.

This is largely a style product atm, aimed at the well off and creative industry markets. it's not about the having the most bells and whistles, nor the best tech specs - it's about having a product with ridiculously easy usability and a 'wow' factor that pioneers will lap up. Think largely time-poor professionals who just want a gadget to work immediately out of the box and give them something aspirational to play with.

It's too rich and too early for me, but I've played with the iphone. The responsiveness, speed and multitouch interface genuinely does give you that 'wow' when you use it. The bigger threat to Apple is that the similarish Ipod Touch may cannibalise the market for its own product


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Think largely time-poor professionals who just want a gadget to work immediately out of the box and give them something aspirational to play with.


Sounds like you've been swalling too much Apple PR flannel!

Since when is a phone "aspirational"?


----------



## tarannau (Sep 19, 2007)

Oh come on, I've already said I don't see the phone as one for me - I'm not swallowing anything, more stating the obvious. It is a product which will generate interest and a 'I want one' reaction - the column inches generated by this product alone should tell you that it's seen as more than just another phone. 

You honestly telling me that Apple isn't an aspirational brand with strong appeal to creative professionals and the fashion markets? I'm not trying to feed the hype machine, more pointing out that for most the purchasing decision won't be predominantly based on cold functionality or even price.


----------



## kyser_soze (Sep 19, 2007)

> Since when is a phone "aspirational"?



While the mobile market itself is commodified, there is a large niche of designer handsets out there, which are UTTERLY aspirational in the way they're marketed - think Nokia 8800 in it's lovely shiny case for example. The iPhone may well be able to repeat the neat trick of the iPod of remaining an aspirational but mass-market (i.e. commodified) product...


----------



## Crispy (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Sounds like you've been swalling too much Apple PR flannel!
> 
> Since when is a phone "aspirational"?



It's bullshit, but it works on some people. They probably bought an Audi TT, even though there are faster, more comfortable, more practical cars for the money. They probably wear gucci shoes that make their feet sore. It's all about status symbols. Apple is cool. The iphone is cool. Owning one makes you cool. That'll do.

The ipod pulled off its trick by being far better than the competitors in an immature market. However phones are a mature market, with very strong competitors - they'll have a harder time.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> You honestly telling me that Apple isn't an aspirational brand with strong appeal to creative professionals and the fashion markets?


I didn't say that. 

I said that I thought your comment about "time-poor professionals" wanting  "something aspirational to play with" was PR bollocks, and I still think it is.

And deep down, I reckon you know that too


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

Meh, it just looks cool (a cool gadget, not a *look at my gadget how cool is this* way) and I want to play with one. 

I've changed my phone so many times over the years and they're all much of a muchness... so yeah, I'm an *early adopter*, not time poor, but fancy a go on it and it's not gonna cost me any more than my current contract or inconvenience me. If I don't like it, I'll flog it on and get something else...


----------



## jæd (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I didn't say that.
> 
> I said that I think your comment about "time-poor professionals" wanting  "something aspirational to play with" was bollocks, and I still think it is.
> 
> And deep down, I reckon you know that too



Why is it bollocks...? I know lots of time-poor professionals... And I know at least one of them who wouldn't say no to an Iphone... (ie, me).


----------



## Xanadu (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Since when is a phone "aspirational"?



When it comes with an audi tt?


----------



## tarannau (Sep 19, 2007)

You haven't met some of my bosses then. Let's take my current example - he's a sloaney type can barely use a pda (the Palm's still in the box, along with an HTC) yet continually buys the latest products. He's already salivating about the iphone.

There are (unfortunately) a lot of people like him up the corporate ladder, particularly in the creative industries. People who like gadgety technology but won't spend any time learning how to use it. 

Hell, I've recently shown my boss how to consistently access the 'right button' mouse commands on his mac keyboard. He's only been using macs for about 12 years...


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Why is it bollocks...? I know lots of time-poor professionals... And I know at least one of them who wouldn't say no to an Iphone... (ie, me).


It's "bollocks"_ because tarranau was the one repeating the PR-bullshit flannel._

I've no doubt such people exist though.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> You haven't met some of my bosses then. Let's take my current example - he's a sloaney type can barely use a pda (the Palm's still in the box, along with an HTC) yet continually buys the latest products. He's already salivating about the iphone.


I was having a go at you because you were trotting out those ludicrous phrases without any trace of irony, not because I doubt that those kind of people exist.


----------



## jæd (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Since when is a phone "aspirational"?



If you can't afford one it is...




			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> In consumer marketing, an aspirational brand (or product) is one that a large segment of its exposure audience wishes to own, but for economical reasons cannot. An aspirational product implies certain positive characteristics to the user, but the supply appears limited due to limited production quantities.


----------



## jæd (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I was having a go at you because you were trotting out those ludicrous phrases without any trace of irony, not because I doubt that those kind of people exist.



Still can't see why its "bollocks" if it describes the marketing of a product...?   AFAIK, this appears to be a part of Apple's Marketing strategy...


----------



## tarannau (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I was having a go at you because you were trotting out those ludicrous phrases without any trace of irony, not because I doubt that those kind of people exist.



Mate, I write those phrases with every trace of irony and self-knowledge. Christ - these people used to be my target market for photography.

You forget that I work with poncey high-end creative professionals and brand men constantly. One of last bosses was uber-aesthetic creative Lewis Blackwell for a start.

It's PR flannel, but it's also the reality in a lot of cases.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Still can't see why its "bollocks" if it describes the marketing of a product...?


*bangs head on wall

Just leave it, eh?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Well, there's the rub.
> 
> You buy a phone because it can do lots of cool stuff when you're out and about, but then you're unable to do half the cool stuff when you're out and about because you become an instant target for muggers.


Heh but that's the price you pay for living in south London. 

I've walked about with all manner of pricey gadgets (smartphone, iPod, cameras) and not once felt threatened or had any problems. In fact the only time I've been approached was by people asking what it was (and on a few occasions small groups of teenagers would jokingly pose for a photograph if they saw me with a camera).

I really don't know what kind of Daily Mail terrified world you'd have to live in if you let some kind of theoratical street robbery put you off buying the gadget you want...


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I really don't know what kind of Daily Mail terrified world you'd have to live in if you let some kind of theoratical street robbery put you off buying the gadget you want...



Innit!!

Has nobody heard of insurance???


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 19, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> Innit!!
> 
> Has nobody heard of insurance???



Heh very good point!


----------



## Gromit (Sep 19, 2007)

Total cost of an iPhone (18 month contract including purchase) £1,259.

Nokia N95 from O2 - (18 months) total cost £630

Hmmm its cool but it ain't that cool.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I really don't know what kind of Daily Mail terrified world you'd have to live in if you let some kind of theoratical street robbery put you off buying the gadget you want...


And there's silly old me thinking that iPods and mobile phones were a recognised factor in the growth of street robberies!

Oh, and look! It's not the Daily Mail reporting it either - I must be living in a weird parallel Guardian/BBC "terrified world!"





> The popularity of iPods and hi-tech mobile phones has fuelled a sharp rise in street robbery in London, the Met Police Commissioner has said.
> Latest figures for London show a 26.4% increase in robbery in April compared to the same month last year.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1926844,00.html
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4583327.stm


I'm not put off buying a phone by the threat of muggings, but you'd be an absolute plonker to start braying on your shiny iPhone on a late night Peckham bus. That's like waving a wad of cash around.


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Total cost of an iPhone (18 month contract including purchase) £1,259.
> 
> Nokia N95 from O2 - (18 months) total cost £630
> 
> Hmmm its cool but it ain't that cool.



How do you arrive at that btw? (not disagreeing)

Take phone cost off and thats what.. 360ish quid difference. (Gadget people would prolly be happy soaking up the phone cost)

Are O2 tarrifs different between the N95 and iPhone?


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> you'd be an absolute plonker to start braying on your shiny iPhone on a late night Peckham bus. That's like waving a wad of cash around.



It's a silly argument isn't it? You're just as likely to get mugged for a Treo as an iPhone surely??


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> It's a silly argument isn't it? You're just as likely to get mugged for a Treo as an iPhone surely??


Not really. Kids haven't a fucking clue what a Treo is, but they'll recognise an iPhone - and know its value - in an instant.

After all, those white iPod headphones proved a good advert for muggers that the player was worth nicking.



> Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan police commissioner, warned earlier this year that the iPods’ distinctive white headphone leads allowed owners to be easily targeted by criminals.
> 
> “In street robbery, our concern has been around the smaller portable pieces of kit — the new generation of mobile phones and iPods,” he said. “ It is very obvious when someone is wearing an iPod. That is what is fuelling this.”
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article576446.ece


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

Yeah, but you're a fucking idiot if you walk around with white headphones.. might as well walk around in Fluro with *mug me* written on it...

(hmm... I must buy some new headphones lol)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> And there's silly old me thinking that iPods and mobile phones were a recognised factor in the growth of street robberies!
> 
> Oh, and look! It's not the Daily Mail reporting it either - I must be living in a weird parallel Guardian/BBC "terrified world!"I'm not put off buying a phone by the threat of muggings, but you'd be an absolute plonker to start braying on your shiny iPhone on a late night Peckham bus. That's like waving a wad of cash around.



Er I think you'd be slightly brave to stand alone at a bus stop at night in Peckham no matter how rich you looked!


----------



## Kanda (Sep 19, 2007)

There is a certain amount of stupidity involved with people getting mugged for expensive gadgets tbh...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 19, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> There is a certain amount of stupidity involved with people getting mugged for expensive gadgets tbh...



I don't know who these people are really, I've never known anyone to get robbed for their phone. Also I wouldn't trust Iain Blair's blaming crime on people having visible iPods...


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I don't know who these people are really, I've never known anyone to get robbed for their phone. Also I wouldn't trust Iain Blair's blaming crime on people having visible iPods...


You want to get out a bit more: iPod targeted robberies happened in the US too.



> San Francisco is home to one of the largest Apple retail stores, an extremely high concentration of iPod users and BART – the Bay Area Rapid Transit system. But riders of BART are now being warned by transit officials about iPod thefts.
> 
> A flyer now available at BART stations is headlined PROTECT YOURSELF AND YOUR iPOD and notes:
> 
> ...



And: Robbers relish iPod craze
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/21/MNGRUOOVAA1.DTL


----------



## Xanadu (Sep 19, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> (hmm... I must buy some new headphones lol)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You want to get out a bit more: iPod targeted robberies happened in the US too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So if none of my mates have been robbed (note we don't live in America either) of their phones or iPods I need to get out more?  Riiiight!  You're the living in Ed, really!

Anyway, moving on from the Ed's anti-iPhone campaign, the new glitzy gadget was launched in German today:



> Apple today announced their alliance with German (former) state telco Tmobile for the German market. Tmobile will have EDGE on 100% of its network by the end of 2007 (oh and probably some 3G too?) and of course it has a bazillion Wifi hotspots around the World.  No mention of whether or not the iPhone plan with Tmobile will include access at any of them like the UK's O2's offering.
> 
> The price is a respectable €399 which is about a 40% premium over the US model before taxes.  We should hear the French model announced at this pricepoint on Orange shortly.
> 
> It is going to be hard to say Tmobile is the best network in Germany but not in the US or the UK  where they got beat by other carriers - it looks like they've skirted the issue by not having a press conference and issuing the statement here and reproduced below.


Link


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Anyway, moving on from the Ed's anti-iPhone campaign, the new glitzy gadget was launched in German today:


How's it an "anti-Phone" campaign? I thought we were just discussing the pros and cons of the thing - you know, like what this forum is for. 

As for the German deal, they're hitting consumers with a *two year* deal. Ouch!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 19, 2007)

Yeah I noted that, something I'm curious about, why is it everywhere but the UK that seems to have these 24 month contracts, how come we only have 18 monthers over here?


----------



## dogmatique (Sep 20, 2007)

Hmm.  So the boss asks me when the iphones are coming out, I tell him, he asks if he can have one, I shrug and say, well, it's your company, you can have whatever  you want, as long as I can have one too.  He says yes.

Result!


----------



## rocketman (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm not certain an iPhone is such a good investment at this point. I can't help but predict a rev. 2 of the product, perhaps as soon as January, which may have something more to offer (3G?).
So I'll hold off, at least for a little while, unless it becomes essential for me to have one (there's actual reasons why it may, not aspirational ones).


----------



## dogmatique (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah, I'm kinda concerned about the fact that there'll be a new one out in 6 months, especially the old 3g question, but Jobs stated at the Regent St launch the other day that the reason they don't have 3g is the power usage.  (Yeah, really?)  

He also said that they weren't expecting improvements to 3g chips to be viable for inclusion until (probably) 3rd quarter next year.

Same would go for gps, possibly even longer.

So how come Blackberry manages this already with a decent battery life?

Looks like it'll be near on a year till it's all singing, all dancing.  By which time, the boss'll want an upgrade!

I'm a little loathe to give up my Nokia N95 due to the lack of GPS on the iphone, as it has come in very useful on several occasions, but even that is very far from being perfect - despite a couple of firmware upgrades, it still takes between 5 and 10 minutes to get a GPS signal, which only makes it useful for longer car journeys.  Navigating on foot quickly isn't an option.

Blackberry on the other hand, can find a signal in less than a minute.  Wrong chip choice there from Nokia.

The real clincher with the iphone is the interface and the browser.  I'm using web browsing more and more with the N95, and am really looking forward to using Safari on the iphone.


----------



## rocketman (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah, Jobs said that, but I think he is dissembling. The solution used is really just because EDGE is more advanced in terms of deployment on the US market - also I suspect the decision may have been tactical, as mobile telcos are unlikely to offer unlimited data over their expensive 3G networks at this point - they still hope to recoup on auction costs, though clearly they have already reduced their expectations.

I'm convinced Jobs has something else he wants to say - could it be connected to WiMax?

I'm playing with an iPod touch today. i do like it. I was able to stand in the park near my house and check the news (as an experiment). I was able to moan at how shit YouTube content is. I was able to watch a film, listen to music - it was great, for something that's a fraction the size of my first mobile. It sure told me how good iPhone interface will be to use,

But I'm really annoyed at the lack of email in the touch. I can't see a decent reason for it - other than pointing people who want that facility at the iPhone, but with just £70 price difference (just?) I think Apple would be better to just focus on the killer app of iPhone - it's a phone. That should be enough to tempt people. Not having email on touch is plain silly.

You can read Gmail on the touch, using the browser, but sending email is almost impossible.

Also - touch really should ship with a remote control - or at least support a third party one, but it does not.

It's nice, it works, it's very more-ish feeling, but without email it just isn't essential: other iPods fulfill their focused funtion - shuffle you take anywhere and don't worry too much, nano does it all, you can take it anywhere and not worry, iPhone does loads, and classic is the choice if you like to carry lots of content, maybe for a trip to Oz, or something.

But touch - while great - doesn't focus on its meaning strongly enough, email would change that, and maximise its appeal - it would be the iPod to have if you did not want an iPhone.

Returning to iPhone, I still think G2 is the way forward.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 20, 2007)

I get a 1gb a month for a fiver on three, which for a for mobile use near enough unlimited. Still loving my Nokia E61, had a big touch screen Motorola A1000 which was cool, but dont think I'd get another smartphone without a qwerty keyboard.

Most of my posting on urban these days is done from it.


----------



## dogmatique (Sep 20, 2007)

The itouch, whilst a great device is just a crippled iphone - there are so many bits that are just disabled though present to make people ramp up to the iphone.

You're right - there's no reason why email couldn't be there, they just want you to spend that bit more money and get an iphone.

If you're thinking of getting an itouch at the moment though, please wait a month or so - the manufacturers in China have been so pressured to get it in store that they've been skipping essential manufacturing steps that are time consuming, such as the anti-reflective coating the LCD display needs to stop black areas from showing up as almost negative, and hence really spoiling your experience.


----------



## dogmatique (Sep 20, 2007)

Global_Stoner said:
			
		

> I get a 1gb a month for a fiver on three, which for a for mobile use near enough unlimited. Still loving my Nokia E61, had a big touch screen Motorola A1000 which was cool, but dont think I'd get another smartphone without a qwerty keyboard.
> 
> Most of my posting on urban these days is done from it.



3 Have consistantly been the most forward thinking when it comes to data, but have been hampered by network coverage compared to the big mob telcos.  How have you found your coverage outside big towns etc?


----------



## dogmatique (Sep 20, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Yeah, Jobs said that, but I think he is dissembling. The solution used is really just because EDGE is more advanced in terms of deployment on the US market



Yeah, it's been amusing to see o2 hurridly updating their network to accomodate a lesser format instead of the 3g access they paid extremley dearly for in the bidding rounds.

Who'd have guessed?


----------



## rocketman (Sep 20, 2007)

Global_Stoner said:
			
		

> I get a 1gb a month for a fiver on three, which for a for mobile use near enough unlimited. Still loving my Nokia E61, had a big touch screen Motorola A1000 which was cool, but dont think I'd get another smartphone without a qwerty keyboard.
> 
> Most of my posting on urban these days is done from it.



Interestingly, the only information I can find on the Unlimited Usage deal O2 is offering on the iPhone says it is "subject to a fair use" policy, but this isn't described. In addition to this, the O2 CEO on Tuesday said this equates to "about 1400 web pages". So that's not very clear, as the size of those pages aren't defined.

Still, as a point of comparison, your 1GB for a fiver is useful info, cheers.


----------



## rocketman (Sep 20, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's been amusing to see o2 hurridly updating their network to accomodate a lesser format instead of the 3g access they paid extremley dearly for in the bidding rounds.
> 
> Who'd have guessed?



Yeah and they will only offer 30 Per cent UK EDGE coverage by Nov 9, when iPhone ships.


----------



## rocketman (Sep 20, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> The itouch, whilst a great device is just a crippled iphone - there are so many bits that are just disabled though present to make people ramp up to the iphone.



This is it - I think a lot of lazy journalists are to be blamed for that POV. It's not a crippled phone  - not everyone wants an all in one device, and it's great for folk like that, using it I think it stands on it's own quite well, it's the best iteration of CoverFlow on all the iPods I tested (too small on nano, too much content on classic). It has a lot to offer, and people will be very happy with it - but email will complete the experience, make it a 'must have' rather than a bit of a luxury item.




			
				dogmatique said:
			
		

> You're right - there's no reason why email couldn't be there, they just want you to spend that bit more money and get an iphone.



And that's it - but it's silly thinking on Apple's part. The killer app of iPhone is the phone bit, and (sad as it is) EDGE support, for when you aren't near a Cloud hotspot (or happen to live in Northern Ireland, where the Cloud doesn't operate.

And why don't you get a remote control on iPhone or iTouch? As editor said, you don't wanna pull one of these doo-dads out on the bus in Peckham, or anywhere else in the evil Thunderdome, come to that.




			
				dogmatique said:
			
		

> If you're thinking of getting an itouch at the moment though, please wait a month or so - the manufacturers in China have been so pressured to get it in store that they've been skipping essential manufacturing steps that are time consuming, such as the anti-reflective coating the LCD display needs to stop black areas from showing up as almost negative, and hence really spoiling your experience.



Ah that is what you think it is? I'm aware now that Apple is preparing some kind of official statement on these faulty models, and there's some kind of consensus that models with Macy Gray on the cover of the box are alright, but the Corrined thingy ones can be faulty, though the one I'm using right now works fine.

Would I get one? Well, I'd smile to own one - but if it had email, I'd get one, rather than switch network for iPhone, which I may be forced to do.


----------



## dogmatique (Sep 20, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Ah that is what you think it is?



I read a post on Digg earlier in the week from an LCD engineer who swore blind this was the problem and gave a rational explination about it, but for the life of me I can't find it, sorry.


----------



## rocketman (Sep 20, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> I read a post on Digg earlier in the week from an LCD engineer who swore blind this was the problem and gave a rational explination about it, but for the life of me I can't find it, sorry.



Interesting I'll have a go to track it down - was it a comment on an entry, or an entry in itself (if a comment we have little or no chance, sad to say).


----------



## dogmatique (Sep 20, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Ah that is what you think it is?



I read a post on Digg earlier in the week from an LCD engineer who swore blind this was the problem and gave a rational explination about it, but for the life of me I can't find it, sorry.



> This is it - I think a lot of lazy journalists are to be blamed for that POV. It's not a crippled phone



No, it really is! They've implimented a pared back version of the iphone software for the itouch - there are a few places within the GUI that you can see redundant iphone functions. - Someone was sold an itouch last week without the operating system onboard, and it had stuff like bluetooth unimplimented and other bits.

Makes sense - why design a new operating system for the itouch when you can just pare down the iphone?  They are, for all intents and purposes the same device, but without the phone chips.


----------



## dogmatique (Sep 20, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Interesting I'll have a go to track it down - was it a comment on an entry, or an entry in itself (if a comment we have little or no chance, sad to say).



It was an actual entry, will try and track it down again. - Suffice to say that this is an early day problem that won't be repeated.

Found it: 



> I'm an engineer with experience in the LCD industry and after seeing enough photos of the Ipod Touch I feel that I can make a pretty accurate assessment of the "black level" situation. It appears to me that it's a problem with the anti-reflective coating. The good news is this is most likely a temporary situation due to quality control issues.
> 
> (Added explanation: The AR coating is essentially a clear layer that prevents light from reflecting off of that surface. What's happening here is the upper glass layer is reflecting light from the LCD screen back down onto the said screen. Without an AR coating you get exactly what you see - shimmering blacks. The problem isn't noticeable with vibrant colors on screen. Rotating the screen will change the way this light is reflected to your eyes and may minimize the problem, but since the LCD was engineered to give best color output when looking straight on, you're left with a losing battle.)
> 
> ...



http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1134707&tstart=0


----------



## dogmatique (Sep 20, 2007)

Oh, by the way, in case it hasn't been mentioned elsewhere, you might be intrested in Stephen Fry's discourse on the smartphone and the iphone here:

http://www.stephenfry.com/blog/?p=3


----------



## Sunray (Sep 21, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but have you got any proof of this statement? My impression, particularly in terms of consumer electronics, is that the UK isn't that price sensitive at the higher end. The first wave of much belittled (and very pricey) ipods flew off the shelves fun in the UK for example. I've always been led to believe that the UK's actually pretty willing to spend considerable moolah on overpriced first mover/pioneer products.



Your talking to an owner of an 1st gen iPod and I didn't even have a Mac.  I got it the day they were released.  Dropped it, its partially damaged, so gave it to someone, might still work though.  Got an iPod mini.

That was a class product. It did the portable hard disk MP3 player better than anyone and its a formula thats not been beaten 7 years later.  I got asked loads of times on the tube and the DLR what it was, then I started seeing them.

The iPhone is nothing like as ground breaking and comes with a meaty contract price.  Compare with the K800i or W800i which is given away right now.  Each does the music/camera as well or better. As phones they are very decent bits of kit.  They are also free and you get free line rental for 6 months with an 18month contract.


----------



## Sunray (Sep 21, 2007)

Nice article

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=42458


----------



## LDR (Sep 21, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> The iPhone is nothing like as ground breaking and comes with a meaty contract price.  Compare with the K800i or W800i which is given away right now.  Each does the music/camera as well or better. As phones they are very decent bits of kit.  They are also free and you get free line rental for 6 months with an 18month contract.


I should be getingt my replacement W800i tomorrow.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 21, 2007)

I switched to three after a trip to the highlands when couldnt get signal but my mates with their new cheaper three packages could. Where i work in the lakes signal is patchy, but then so is orange, vodaphone just happen to have a mast nearby. When your outside of threes masts u switch to another provider which i think is o2.


----------



## tarannau (Sep 21, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> The iPhone is nothing like as ground breaking and comes with a meaty contract price.  Compare with the K800i or W800i which is given away right now.  Each does the music/camera as well or better. As phones they are very decent bits of kit.  They are also free and you get free line rental for 6 months with an 18month contract.



No disrespect, but you're kidding yourself if you honestly think the K800i 'does the music' as well as an ipod. I've had 5 years of Sony Ericsson phones and I like them (currently on a w850, LQ using a K800), but they're not particularly nice things to play music on. The interface gets clumsy, controls are comparatively sluggish, it's not great at navigating more than a handful of songs.

 On the video player side I can't even seem to ffwd or rwd easily, if at all, on my SE phone. That's a far step away from the convenience of an an ipod's scroll wheel, let alone the responsiveness and (currently) unique multitouch feel of the new ipod touch. 

FWIW I think the iphone's overpriced and in need of an update or two before it's mass market as well. But I can't deny it's a nice product with a wow factor either - it's nonsense to suggest that it's easily comparable with more workaday phones like the SE series.


----------



## editor (Sep 21, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> Nice article
> 
> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=42458


Yep.



> There are many reasons not to buy an Iphone in November - and I will cover some of the main ones – but I accept that it will make very little difference to the big dumb rush. This is Apple we are talking about and it’s succeeded – again – in cornering the ‘cool’ corner, creating a willing cult of shoppers that will be more than willing to part with a minimum of £900 on launch day. Yep, £900. That’s £269 for the device and £35 a month for 18 months. That’s the cheapest deal too with O2. If you want the top option, at £55 a month, then you’ll need a pretty uncool, £1,259.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 21, 2007)

These 'iphone costs a grand' things are a bit stupid aren't they? I mean, any phone will cost you hundreds and hundres when you take the contract length into account.


----------



## Kanda (Sep 21, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> These 'iphone costs a grand' things are a bit stupid aren't they? I mean, any phone will cost you hundreds and hundres when you take the contract length into account.



What I was thinking. Isn't the only difference the initial outlay (£269) and the contract length (6 months more than usual). I don't keep track of monthly plans but aren't they inline with other plans?


----------



## Xanadu (Sep 21, 2007)

I thought the average contract cost was around £25 a month.  For a 12 month contract, that's £300 (with a free phone)


----------



## editor (Sep 21, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> These 'iphone costs a grand' things are a bit stupid aren't they? I mean, any phone will cost you hundreds and hundres when you take the contract length into account.


Hardly any phones cost anywhere near as much as the iPhone though, and not many force you into an 18 month deal.

Over the same 18 month contract, my Palm/T Mobile deal works out at £500 - and that's including the price of the phone which I bought separately.


----------



## tarannau (Sep 21, 2007)

I suppose some people will look at it in a different way though; 'it's £300, less than the price of my first ipod 5 years ago, and it's an extra £5 a month for my contract or so'


----------



## Crispy (Sep 21, 2007)

Fair dooooos


----------



## editor (Sep 21, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> I suppose some people will look at it in a different way though; 'it's £300, less than the price of my first ipod 5 years ago, and it's an extra £5 a month for my contract or so'


There's no phone on the planet that I'd be willing to sign an _18 month deal _for, especially if I'd be expected to switch network providers and shell out a wad of cash at the outset.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 21, 2007)

Well, we'll see how the sales numbers go. Personally, I think they'll struggle.


----------



## editor (Sep 21, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Well, we'll see how the sales numbers go. Personally, I think they'll struggle.


I hope so because I'd hate this '18-month exclusive contract' malarkey to gain traction with other network operators.


----------



## Sunray (Sep 21, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> No disrespect, but you're kidding yourself if you honestly think the K800i 'does the music' as well as an ipod. I've had 5 years of Sony Ericsson phones and I like them (currently on a w850, LQ using a K800), but they're not particularly nice things to play music on. The interface gets clumsy, controls are comparatively sluggish, it's not great at navigating more than a handful of songs.
> 
> On the video player side I can't even seem to ffwd or rwd easily, if at all, on my SE phone. That's a far step away from the convenience of an an ipod's scroll wheel, let alone the responsiveness and (currently) unique multitouch feel of the new ipod touch.
> 
> FWIW I think the iphone's overpriced and in need of an update or two before it's mass market as well. But I can't deny it's a nice product with a wow factor either - it's nonsense to suggest that it's easily comparable with more workaday phones like the SE series.


I mis-typed that, the W880i is what I meant to put in.  Thats Sony's walkman phone.  I tried using the K800i as a player and its shit.  I bet its camera is better than the iPhone's.

It not nonsense, its the market that the iPhone is in and they have to be compared. Granted the iPhone can do what it does better than anyone.  But its not just that aspect that is going to be compared.  Many of the SE phones come for free and your not going to tell me that they are shit phones, they're not. The iPhone is 269.  Well, OK its a flash gizmo, so might be worth that, its that hidden cost of the 18 month contract. I go for a SE phone on 18 months and I get free line rental for 6 months and loads of minutes and texts.

People today are now fairly clued in on mobile phone contracts. Its blindingly obvious it is an expensive and long contract.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 21, 2007)

I had a play with an iphone last night.

"meh" is about as much enthusiasm as I can manage about it tbh.


----------



## Sunray (Sep 21, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I hope so because I'd hate this '18-month exclusive contract' malarkey to gain traction with other network operators.



You can get quite good deals for 18-24 month contracts.  Operators like it because it slows the churn so are willing to offer much better minutes/texts, so if your heavy user can save you quite a lot if your willing to have the  longer contract.  

No operator would dare offer only 18 month contracts, they would lose business.


----------



## editor (Sep 21, 2007)

I'm still very impressed by the Palm 500v and Vodaphone Live! combo. 

Does anyone know if the iPhone/o2 package offer similar mobileTV viewing/location based services?


----------



## cybertect (Sep 21, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> Yeah, I'm kinda concerned about the fact that there'll be a new one out in 6 months, especially the old 3g question, but Jobs stated at the Regent St launch the other day that the reason they don't have 3g is the power usage.  (Yeah, really?)
> 
> He also said that they weren't expecting improvements to 3g chips to be viable for inclusion until (probably) 3rd quarter next year.
> 
> ...



Anandtech tested out the theory in July and found that on a Samsung Blackjack, 3G cut talk time in half (though it had a smaller effect on battery usage when web browsing or using email).

Blackberrry claim 4 hours of talk time for their 3G enabled 8700v. Apple are claiming 8 hours for the iPhone, which seems to fit with the Anandtech numbers quite nicely.

I guess it's down to what you call 'decent' battery life. 

When you take into account that not even Blackberry are shipping 3G phones in the US because the 3G network infrastructure isn't there, but EDGE networks are (the converse is true in Europe) and it possibly makes more sense for Apple to target their primary market with an EDGE device. It's a less attractive option in Europe, to be sure.


----------



## editor (Sep 21, 2007)

cybertect said:
			
		

> When you take into account that not even Blackberry are shipping 3G phones in the US because the 3G network infrastructure isn't there, but EDGE networks are (the converse is true in Europe) and it possibly makes more sense for Apple to target their primary market with an EDGE device. It's a less attractive option in Europe, to be sure.


I've been pleasantly surprised by Vodafone's 3G service - it's much faster than I expected and a colossal hike up from GPRS. I'd imagine some iPhone users will soon start turning off  images in their browser if they're not connected to a wi-fi network - which rather defeats the object of the lush screen.


----------



## Sunray (Sep 21, 2007)

cybertect said:
			
		

> Anandtech tested out the theory in July and found that on a Samsung Blackjack, 3G cut talk time in half (though it had a smaller effect on battery usage when web browsing or using email).
> 
> Blackberrry claim 4 hours of talk time for their 3G enabled 8700v. Apple are claiming 8 hours for the iPhone, which seems to fit with the Anandtech numbers quite nicely.
> 
> ...



I read that article and criticised it again for using such a shit phone.  3G battery life is entirely dependant on how decent your local 3G network is, a weak signal makes the handset go full power.  

Where I am, in Hackney, London, its actually quite poor even though I can see a mobile phone mast from the back garden, its clearly not a 3G mast and I lose about a 1-1 1/2 days standby because of it, causing me to switch it off.

This probably one of the reasons behind the decision to make the iPhone 2G as the US market is primarily 2G and with lots of blank spots as its such a massive place.  Their 3G network is much more limited and would probably be using the handsets max power at all times.


----------



## LDR (Sep 22, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> These 'iphone costs a grand' things are a bit stupid aren't they? I mean, any phone will cost you hundreds and hundres when you take the contract length into account.


I got mine off eBay for £60 and and £20 for a 4MB card.  Suits me.  I spend about £20 month on a contract at the minute which runs out soon.  I'm taking the phone back to NZ and then switching to PAYG.


----------



## LDR (Sep 22, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> I mis-typed that, the W880i is what I meant to put in.


That's what I found in the post this morning.  TBH I find it no better or worse than navigating on a dedicated MP3 player and I've owned both an ipod and a Creative Zen.

Actually it's a Sony Ericsson W810i Walkman.


----------



## jæd (Sep 22, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> I had a play with an iphone last night.
> 
> "meh" is about as much enthusiasm as I can manage about it tbh.



Had a play with on yesterday. Very impressed, but I don't like the way its a hassle to unlock, theres no easy way to install 3rd party apps. Also a bit concerned a bit battery life + length.

But a very good effort for a first time phone...!


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2007)

This article suggests that Apple might try to 'brick' any unlocked iPhones.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/pos...e-unlocks-may-result-in-expensive-bricks.html


----------



## DJ Bigga (Sep 24, 2007)

OK so I'm already on 02, already on an 18month contract (which ends in err....November!). I'm a self confessed gadget freak and I want a flippin Iphone! 
Can anyone convince me it's not a good idea?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 24, 2007)

its got a touchscreen which will look shit in 12 months time if you dont break it (if your like with phones)


----------



## tarannau (Sep 24, 2007)

DJ Bigga said:
			
		

> OK so I'm already on 02, already on an 18month contract (which ends in err....November!). I'm a self confessed gadget freak and I want a flippin Iphone!
> Can anyone convince me it's not a good idea?



Erm, it's pricey, yet hasn't got all the features you'd expect. The camera's of a low standard really; good in light and little else. It's got silly restrictions on ringtones and needs you to run some Apple-sourced software on your pc to experience the full effect. And there'll almost certainly be a greater and better version just around the corner at lower cost.

But if you're determined to spend....
...it's a lovely bit of kit. Multitouch gives you the full poncey 'I'm on Startrek' experience; it's fast and slick and works just as you expect it to. The browser's genuinely impressive, it flips view intuitively, the screen's very nice indeed. And being able to select voicemail in any order from a list is so simple and useful that you just want to shout 'why hasn't anyone done this before?' 

It's probably not worth it. I prefer my phones more discrete and smaller, something to pocket and forget, not worry about. But I'd still want one if I had money to burn.


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Erm, it's pricey, yet hasn't got all the features you'd expect. The camera's of a low standard really; good in light and little else.


Plus NO VIDEO! No MMS (picture messaging)! No cut and paste. Barely any apps at the moment - there's zillions more programs available on WM/Palm/Symbian platforms. And, of course, NO PROPER KEYBOARD!

But as an expensive shiny gadget for flashing about and fiddling about on, it's rather lovely.


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> And being able to select voicemail in any order from a list is so simple and useful that you just want to shout 'why hasn't anyone done this before?'


It's a great innovation although I don't really get enough voicemails to make it of much use to me.

What I find weird is that just about all the other smartphone manufacturers failed to copy two of Palm's greatest innovations - threaded SMS and a simple external ringer on/off switch - until Apple came along.

Even more bizarrely, Palm's latest WM phone - which offers tons more functionality than the iPhone for a load less moolah - gets rid of those two great features! Crazy!


----------



## tarannau (Sep 24, 2007)

Rubbish, you can watch videos from an accredited, Apple approved online stockist, I mean itunes. Or tinker around with codecs and upload from yor computer.
 

I don't deny, it's not all there yet. It isn't a true enterprise-ready jack of all trades. But if you're after a fantastic media player and web browser, with a excellent,intuitive phone attached, plus a growing number of applications with a lot of promise, it's far from a bad option. Is it worth the money with that in mind? Even with that interface and satisfyingly innovatuve-feeling multitouch gubbins? Perhaps.

(ok, so I'd like one....)


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Rubbish, you can watch videos from an accredited, Apple approved online stockist, I mean itunes.


I meant you can't _record_ videos with the iPhone like you can on just about every other modern smartphone in the known universe.


----------



## lights.out.london (Sep 24, 2007)

Stick 'Apple' on it and charge a lot more? 

I'll stick with my BB Pearl.


----------



## dada (Sep 24, 2007)

one more thing about iphone that i dislike is,
i can't send image via bluetooth!
something so basic for a mobile.
a damn given standard that it doesn't have.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 24, 2007)

So, how many of these flaws do people think can be fixed with a firmware update?


----------



## dada (Sep 24, 2007)

it's beautiful and sleek.
photo viewing is excellent.
web browser is fantastic.
but texting sucks cos it can never compete with hardkey input which gives you reassurance.
camera quality ain't that great neither.
and it's not even 3G.
not worth buying it at the moment.
wait til 3rd or 4th generation.


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2007)

dada said:
			
		

> it's beautiful and sleek.
> photo viewing is excellent.


The lack of a memory card slot is a massive drawback too.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 24, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> What I find weird is that just about all the other smartphone manufacturers failed to copy two of Palm's greatest innovations - threaded SMS and a simple external ringer on/off switch - until Apple came along.


Smartphone manufacturers - at least the big two - have long since stopped bothering to care about user experience I would say, which was one of the reasons I was keen to see the iPhone. The N73 I have at the moment is functionally almost identical to the 3650 I had, oh, five years ago? Hardware-wise it's much better of course; in UI terms it is still confusing and crap. The Sony I had before that was also crap, the only good part about it being the jog-wheel (fair's fair, that's a good controller).

They're a bunch of complacent bastards quite frankly.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 24, 2007)

Agreed, its seems that they drop features that are usefull to add more. I'd love to be able to design my own phone OS with all the things I want on it. Things I find bizzare is that high end nokias dont come with something usefull like a stopwatch, whilst the cheap ones do.

That said my E61 is probably the best smartphone I've owned, but still, its not quite there. Give it a scroll wheel to move through web pages fast as well as the joystick, a copy and paste feature and an app to turn the white lite which lites up when you get an email into an emergency torch and it would be better. The web browser is shit, but opera sorts that out.


----------



## dada (Sep 24, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The lack of a memory card slot is a massive drawback too.



exactly.

i wanted one too.
and i have one at work.
after playing with it for 2 days.
i concluded i wouldn't use it as a phone.
i want my phone small.
and be able to take good macro pics.
plus easy texting.
... yes, i have a lovely sony ericsson.


----------



## dada (Sep 24, 2007)

Global_Stoner said:
			
		

> Things I find bizzare is that high end nokias dont come with something usefull like a stopwatch, whilst the cheap ones do.



out of curiosity,
how many of you use the stopwatch function?


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2007)

Global_Stoner said:
			
		

> Agreed, its seems that they drop features that are usefull to add more. I'd love to be able to design my own phone OS with all the things I want on it. Things I find bizzare is that high end nokias dont come with something usefull like a stopwatch, whilst the cheap ones do.


One of the benefits of using the Palm OS is there's almost always a free/cheap app for  just about everything (although it may not look that slick).


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2007)

Fucking hell, this is a bit heavy. Anyone thinking about using an unlocked iPhone might want to think again - unless it's all bluster of course.



> CUPERTINO, Calif., Sept. 24 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Apple has discovered that many of the unauthorized iPhone unlocking programs available on the Internet cause irreparable damage to the iPhone's software, which will likely result in the modified iPhone becoming permanently inoperable when a future Apple-supplied iPhone software update is installed.
> 
> Apple plans to release the next iPhone software update, containing many new features including the iTunes Wi-Fi Music Store (www.itunes.com), later this week. Apple strongly discourages users from installing unauthorized unlocking programs on their iPhones. Users who make unauthorized modifications to the software on their iPhone violate their iPhone software license agreement and void their warranty. The permanent inability to use an iPhone due to installing unlocking software is not covered under the iPhone's warranty.


Has any phone manufacturer threatened to bork an unofficially unlocked phone before?


----------



## dada (Sep 24, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Fucking hell, this is a bit heavy. Anyone thinking about using an unlocked iPhone might want to think again - unless it's all bluster of course.
> 
> Has any phone manufacturer threatened to bork an unofficially unlocked phone before?



oh, my one at work it's an unlocked one  
what they gonna do?
it's pretty ridiculous that they don't offer sim free phone i say.
to ensure the 10% profits off from the operators them?


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2007)

dada said:
			
		

> oh, my one at work it's an unlocked one
> what they gonna do?
> it's pretty ridiculous that they don't offer sim free phone i say.
> to ensure the 10% profits off from the operators them?


I guess you'll find out later on this week if it's still working or not - but if it is borked, you'll have no warranty!

Word is that O2 will have to return to Apple as much as 40% of any revenues it makes from customers' use of the device, so there's a lorra dosh at stake here.


----------



## dada (Sep 24, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I guess you'll find out later on this week if it's still working or not - but if it is borked, you'll have no warranty!
> 
> Word is that O2 will have to return to Apple as much as 40% of any revenues it makes from customers' use of the device, so there's a lorra dosh at stake here.



40%?!!!!!
gosh!
and lol, vodafone refuses to join the crowd.


----------



## DJ Bigga (Sep 24, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Erm, it's pricey, yet hasn't got all the features you'd expect. The camera's of a low standard really; good in light and little else. It's got silly restrictions on ringtones and needs you to run some Apple-sourced software on your pc to experience the full effect. And there'll almost certainly be a greater and better version just around the corner at lower cost.
> 
> But if you're determined to spend....
> ...it's a lovely bit of kit. Multitouch gives you the full poncey 'I'm on Startrek' experience; it's fast and slick and works just as you expect it to. The browser's genuinely impressive, it flips view intuitively, the screen's very nice indeed. And being able to select voicemail in any order from a list is so simple and useful that you just want to shout 'why hasn't anyone done this before?'
> ...



Well I've never been one for phone pictures and to be honest could really do without a camera on the phone. The main thing for me is can I get full net browsing like at home? Will it double as a music player like my current phone does? And does it have a bit of a wow factor? 
I think we know the answer to all those. Downside for me? I hate fucking Itunes IStore IShit! I don't want ANY Apple software on my PC! It's contamination!
Anyone reckon they'll be a way of using it without flippin Itunes?
BTW my current blower is a N91.


----------



## dada (Sep 24, 2007)

DJ Bigga said:
			
		

> Well I've never been one for phone pictures and to be honest could really do without a camera on the phone. The main thing for me is can I get full net browsing like at home? Will it double as a music player like my current phone does? And does it have a bit of a wow factor?
> I think we know the answer to all those. Downside for me? I hate fucking Itunes IStore IShit! I don't want ANY Apple software on my PC! It's contamination!
> Anyone reckon they'll be a way of using it without flippin Itunes?
> BTW my current blower is a N91.



about browsing at home.
it was actually kinda fun using the wifi.
i was reading and posting on urban the other day with it in bed. 
but when you're laying down or on your side, the phone can't really detect the correct orientation of your view.  
something that can't be easily sorted.


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2007)

Bigga: you might find this UK-based discussion abut the iPhone interesting:
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/09/24/review_apple_iphone/comments/
They're talking about a glowing review that the site had just posted up.

Bear in mind (AFAIK) that there's also no embedded chat client, no user changeable battery, no DIY ring-tones, no 3G, no Java, no A2DP, no built-in VoIP and you apparently can't delete or forward individual text messages or send the same message to more than one receiver.

But it still looks lovely.


----------



## DJ Bigga (Sep 25, 2007)

Cheers Ed. The more I read about missing features the more put off I get  What's an alternative? If if I dont get one my contract is still up and I need a decent smartphone.


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

DJ Bigga said:
			
		

> Cheers Ed. The more I read about missing features the more put off I get  What's an alternative? If if I dont get one my contract is still up and I need a decent smartphone.


Oh don't ask me because I'll only bang on about the Palm Treo phones. I love 'em!

They're not without their limitations mind - in particular no wi-fi and a pretty duff camera - but it's got a bright 320x320 screen, a proper keyboard (yes!), there's tons and tons and tons of software available and can do just about anything I ask of it. 

There's a new Palm OS Treo expected out soonish and if it's anywhere near as good as the Windows version I just reviewed, I'm buying it!


----------



## stdPikachu (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Has any phone manufacturer threatened to bork an unofficially unlocked phone before?



I'm no lawyer, but wouldn't intentionally bricking phones be illegal? IIRC you haven't signed any contract saying you'll use Carrier X exclusively until you actually sign up with them...?


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> I'm no lawyer, but wouldn't intentionally bricking phones be illegal? IIRC you haven't signed any contract saying you'll use Carrier X exclusively until you actually sign up with them...?


I'd imagine that Apple would argue that their software update _just happens_ to break dodgily unlocked iPhones and as such it's not their fault.


----------



## stdPikachu (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I'd imagine that Apple would argue that their software update _just happens_ to break dodgily unlocked iPhones and as such it's not their fault.



It'd be interesting to see that stand up to technical analysis. Can anyone here shed any light on how mobile phones are "locked" and what software components must be haXx0r3d to disable the locks?


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> It'd be interesting to see that stand up to technical analysis. Can anyone here shed any light on how mobile phones are "locked" and what software components must be haXx0r3d to disable the locks?


Unless they've sneaked in some hardware nastiness, I'd imagine  that whatever software borking technique they've employed could be undone by hackers sooner or later.

But I really don't recall any other phone manufacturer threatening to trash unlocked phones in this manner. If they're successful, they're going to really piss off a lot of Apple customers.


----------



## Kanda (Sep 25, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> I'm no lawyer, but wouldn't intentionally bricking phones be illegal? IIRC you haven't signed any contract saying you'll use Carrier X exclusively until you actually sign up with them...?



Dunno if intentionally or not but you've been able to brick a PSP for years if you fuck about with the ROM's.


----------



## stdPikachu (Sep 25, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> Dunno if intentionally or not but you've been able to brick a PSP for years if you fuck about with the ROM's.



The difference is that if you wiggle your PSP firmware, when your day comes in court people are only going to say "M'lud, prosecution is a dirty stinkin' pirate who wanted to play teh pirate movies and gamewarezes", whereas I can't see any such concerns arriving from "I wanted my new phone to work with my current contract".

Hopefully the bricking issue will just be bluster to scare people from doing it. Conversely, there's plenty of tech savvy consumers who'll refuse to buy a restricted device that comes advertised as having Apple's thumb over the self-destruct button.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 25, 2007)

I don't really think it's a big deal tbh, any time you chip, unlock, etc your device you've taking a risk.


----------



## DJ Bigga (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I don't really think it's a big deal tbh, any time you chip, unlock, etc your device you've taking a risk.



Yup


----------



## jæd (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I don't really think it's a big deal tbh, any time you chip, unlock, etc your device you've taking a risk.



Well... Unlocking a phone lets you use it as it intended, just on a different network. Chippping a device it mostly to run warez on it...


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I don't really think it's a big deal tbh, any time you chip, unlock, etc your device you've taking a risk.


Really? I mean, there's always a small risk, but I've never heard of a phone manufacturer _implicitly_ suggesting that their next update will fuck up your phone for ever.

It sounds to some folks on that they're going out of their way to punish Apple fans who have paid the company good money for their phone but want to use it on a different network (read the frothing comments on Engadget!).

Edit to add: it might be interesting to see how all this goes down in the EU.


----------



## Sunray (Sep 25, 2007)

I got a new SIM when I got a 3G phone, I'm wondering if this is different to the old 2G SIM? If it is, I couldn't get an iPhone without a massive amount of messing about getting another SIM or use it on PAYG.


----------



## Xanadu (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Oh don't ask me because I'll only bang on about the Palm Treo phones. I love 'em!
> 
> They're not without their limitations mind - in particular no wi-fi and a pretty duff camera - but it's got a bright 320x320 screen, a proper keyboard (yes!), there's tons and tons and tons of software available and can do just about anything I ask of it.
> 
> There's a new Palm OS Treo expected out soonish and if it's anywhere near as good as the Windows version I just reviewed, I'm buying it!



I thought the screen was 240x240.  Which models are 320x320?


----------



## jæd (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> It sounds to some folks on that they're going out of their way to punish Apple fans who have paid the company good money for their phone but want to use it on a different network (read the frothing comments on Engadget!).



But *all* the comments on Engadget are frothing... 




			
				editor said:
			
		

> Edit to add: it might be interesting to see how all this goes down in the EU.



Yep.... I'm fine with Apple saying that 3rd-party hacks are "dangerous" as long as they bring out a Apple-blessed method of doing it. Which they might well have to in the EU.

So its all another latte storm session...


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> I thought the screen was 240x240.  Which models are 320x320?


The Palm Treo 650/680/700p/755p are all 320 x 320.
The new Windows Treo 500v is 320 x 240.
The Windows 750v was 240x240.
The new PalmOS Centro is also expected to be 320x320.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Really? I mean, there's always a small risk, but I've never heard of a phone manufacturer _implicitly_ suggesting that their next update will fuck up your phone for ever.
> 
> It sounds to some folks on that they're going out of their way to punish Apple fans who have paid the company good money for their phone but want to use it on a different network (read the frothing comments on Engadget!).
> 
> Edit to add: it might be interesting to see how all this goes down in the EU.



In this day and age with updating only the naive would not realise the risk. I don't mean to come off sounding pro corporate on this, I'm not. Just saying that it's no real surprise...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 25, 2007)

seems a bit daft, your still having to fork out for the phone and the contract. What happens if you live somewhere with dodgy reception and like to have a spare sim for emergancies.


----------



## stdPikachu (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> In this day and age with updating only the naive would not realise the risk.



Unacceptable for a consumer device IMHO.

At the very worst, a firmware update should do nothing more than overwrite the "unlocked" firmware and the phone will revert back to "locked" behaviour. The fact that there are rumours abound that the firmware will be _actively crippled_ if it detects the phone has been unlocked smacks of a blatant anti-consumer attitude.


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> At the very worst, a firmware update should do nothing more than overwrite the "unlocked" firmware and the phone will revert back to "locked" behaviour. The fact that there are rumours abound that the firmware will be _actively crippled_ if it detects the phone has been unlocked smacks of a blatant anti-consumer attitude.


Yup. I've no problem with Apple's updates overwriting any installed dodgy hacks, but if - as implied in their press release - their updates actively seek to 'punish' users by turning their expensive phone into a useless brick, then that's a step too far in my book.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 25, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> Unacceptable for a consumer device IMHO.
> 
> At the very worst, a firmware update should do nothing more than overwrite the "unlocked" firmware and the phone will revert back to "locked" behaviour. The fact that there are rumours abound that the firmware will be _actively crippled_ if it detects the phone has been unlocked smacks of a blatant anti-consumer attitude.



Unacceptable only if you're one of the few willing to unlock; I reckon the vast majority of users wont be affected by this at all. Like I say it's no surprise at all.


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Unacceptable only if you're one of the few willing to unlock; I reckon the vast majority of users wont be affected by this at all.l.


So you think it's a reasonable and acceptable business practice that consumers should just accept then?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> So you think it's a reasonable and acceptable business practice that consumers should just accept then?



I think you get what you pay for. You buy Apple this is what you get, you buy Palm you get something else. That's how the market works right?


----------



## jæd (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Unless they've sneaked in some hardware nastiness, I'd imagine  that whatever software borking technique they've employed could be undone by hackers sooner or later.
> 
> But I really don't recall any other phone manufacturer threatening to trash unlocked phones in this manner. If they're successful, they're going to really piss off a lot of Apple customers.



But they aren't.... They're just saying "Don't use 3rd-party tools because the phone could be borked due to a firmware update in future"... Seems like fairly predictable arse-covering by Apple...


----------



## Xanadu (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The Palm Treo 650/680/700p/755p are all 320 x 320.
> The new Windows Treo 500v is 320 x 240.
> The Windows 750v was 240x240.
> The new PalmOS Centro is also expected to be 320x320.



Interesting...


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> But they aren't.... They're just saying "Don't use 3rd-party tools because the phone could be borked due to a firmware update in future"... Seems like fairly predictable arse-covering by Apple...


You're missing the point. Many suspect that the "irreparable damage" is being _intentionally_ created by Apple and is not an inevitable side effect of the unlocking (after all, no other phone manufacturer has issued such dire warnings about upgrades, AFAIK)



> The company said in a statement on Monday that it has found "irreparable damage" caused to the phone's software by many of the unlocking tools currently available.
> 
> When new updates are installed, the iPhone could be rendered "permanently inoperable".
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I think you get what you pay for. You buy Apple this is what you get, you buy Palm you get something else. That's how the market works right?


You haven't actually answered my question.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You haven't actually answered my question.






			
				Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> In this day and age with updating only the naive would not realise the risk. I don't mean to come off sounding pro corporate on this, I'm not. Just saying that it's no real surprise...


he did earlier


----------



## stdPikachu (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Unacceptable only if you're one of the few willing to unlock



Sorry, I see it as my right to have MY phone run on whatever carrier I decide. Locking it to a single carrier does no favours for the customer. It's purely a money making exercise on Apple's part. I'd have no problem with them if they came clean about it.




			
				editor said:
			
		

> So you think it's a reasonable and acceptable business practice that consumers should just accept then?



Hah! I've already been flamed about other protestations on this. I've even seen people say that this enforced bricking is good because it'll produce a cat'n'mouse race between Apple and the hackers - the hackers will keep getting bricked phones, and the "legitimate" users will keep getting better and better firmware. Apple are even raising the chocolate ration to twenty-five grammes a week!

The iPhone is a nice bit of kit. It has some funky new things and some genuinely innovative ideas. But it comes with such onerous terms of use I fail to see how anyone can sit there and say "well yes, actually, that _is_ for my own protection".




			
				jæd said:
			
		

> But they aren't.... They're just saying "Don't use 3rd-party tools because the phone could be borked due to a firmware update in future"... Seems like fairly predictable arse-covering by Apple...



The arse-covering warnings are usually printed in 6pt font at the bottom of an incomperhensible morass of legalese. The fact that Apple are making a big song and dance about it is proof, IMHO, that they're deliberately trying to scare people out of unlocking their phones.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 25, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> Sorry, I see it as my right to have MY phone run on whatever carrier I decide. Locking it to a single carrier does no favours for the customer. It's purely a money making exercise on Apple's part. I'd have no problem with them if they came clean about it.



Sure, fair point you see it as your right, Apple sees this as their right and given they're a multi billion dollar corporation that gets to draw up whatever warranty agreement they want you can see who wins out.

Tbh the annoyance of this is telling, would anyone bat an eyelid if Microsoft or Sony did this? Why should Apple be treated differently?


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> he did earlier


No he didn't.

He just keep telling me how he's "not surprised" by the decision, but that's not what I was asking him. 

I was asking whether he think it is a "reasonable and acceptable business practice that consumers should just accept."


----------



## tarannau (Sep 25, 2007)

You've got to be a geeky numpty to try and unlock the iphone at the moment to be fair. Even if you did succeed, it's something of a pyrrhic victory - some of the features (Eg EDGE, Visual/Ordered voicemail) are network dependent and other issues have popped on unlocked iphones - Google Maps/You Tube stop working for example.

Apple's warning is a bit crap mind, clumsy and worded to sound perhaps more theatening that the likely reality. It's one of those 'we take no responsibility whatsoever - play around all you like...just don't expect it to work' arse-covering legal get-outs.


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Tbh the annoyance of this is telling, would anyone bat an eyelid if Microsoft or Sony did this? Why should Apple be treated differently?


But surely the _whole point_ is that neither of those companies have (afaik) tried to 'brick' their unlocked phones via updates?

Isn't this an Apple innovation?


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Even if you did succeed, it's something of a pyrrhic victory - some of the features (Eg EDGE, Visual/Ordered voicemail) are network dependent and other issues have popped on unlocked iphones - Google Maps/You Tube stop working for example..


Bit odd that seeing as most folks on other phone platforms can download their free copy of Google Maps and have it run on their mobiles regardless of their locked/unlocked status.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> No he didn't.
> 
> He just keep telling me how he's "not surprised" by the decision, but that's now I was asking him.
> 
> I was asking whether he think it is a "reasonable and acceptable business practice that consumers should just accept."



  But I did, at least the part about whether consumers should just accept. See my point about you get what you pay for, you don't like it you buy something else. Ultimately speaking that is...

Is it reasonable? Meh...not sure I really care to be honest. If you're getting annoyed with the actions of a corporation within the market place I think you're not seeing the woods for the trees. Aren't there far worse companies out there to be angry about?


----------



## jæd (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You're missing the point. Many suspect that the "irreparable damage" is being _intentionally_ created by Apple and is not an inevitable side effect of the unlocking (after all, no other phone manufacturer has issued such dire warnings about upgrades, AFAIK)



How can "irreparable damage" by third-party tool be generated by Apple...?  

Though I'm also  how you can do "irreparable damage" in software... The only way I could forsee is if the utility writes to or mangles the boot procedure of the iPhone. (Ie, so it can't reboot...) But if that were the case its a bit irresponsible of the utility writers...


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> <much fudging>


Ever considered a career in politics?


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> How can "irreparable damage" by third-party tool be generated by Apple...?


That's Apple's phrase, not mine, so you'd best take it up with them.


----------



## jæd (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> But surely the _whole point_ is that neither of those companies have (afaik) tried to 'brick' their unlocked phones via updates?
> 
> Isn't this an Apple innovation?



Sony have had a history of releasing updates to the PSP that disallow running "homebrew" software on it. (Not 100% the same, but still annoying)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Ever considered a career in politics?



I already have one but you should too!


----------



## jæd (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> That's Apple's phrase, not mine, so you'd best take it up with them.



This bit...?




			
				Article said:
			
		

> Apple executives have said that the company does not purposely design updates to disable or damage hacked iPhones, but warned that it would not accept any responsibility if its updates damaged phones with third-party software.



Still sounds like arse covering.... "It might explode if you've tampered with it, so don't do it, and don't blame us" Though I'd be waiting and seeing what happens, rather than all this fairly pointless speculation...


----------



## Crispy (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I already have one but you should too!


I reckon he's gunning for paxman's job.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 25, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> I reckon he's gunning for paxman's job.


 
Heh he's more Krishnan Guru-Murthy than Paxman.


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> You've got to be a geeky numpty to try and unlock the iphone at the moment to be fair.


Looks like there was  "several hundred thousand" numpties out there!

http://www.tuaw.com/2007/09/25/iphone-dev-team-issues-statement/


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 25, 2007)

Given it's massive flaws, network lock in and huge price I _still_ can't see why anyone would want one.  I'm honestly baffled by it.


----------



## rocketman (Sep 25, 2007)

Probably more to do with a coder inadvertently corrupting the iPhone operating system, though I don't know how much of that system is embedded. If some is embedded and becomes corrupt, then that's could be a big deal, maybe.

Saying that, I don't believe iPhone will be closed forever. Am holding out for OS 10.5 for a clue to that.


----------



## jæd (Sep 25, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> Given it's massive flaws, network lock in and huge price I _still_ can't see why anyone would want one.  I'm honestly baffled by it.



You could say the same thing about a lot of phones, smart, or otherwise...


----------



## jæd (Sep 25, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Probably more to do with a coder inadvertently corrupting the iPhone operating system, though I don't know how much of that system is embedded. If some is embedded and becomes corrupt, then that's could be a big deal, maybe.



The link the Editor points to mentions that the hackers will be releasing a reflash utility to restore the iPhone... So it would indicate they know their unlock-tool isn't without danger...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 25, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> You could say the same thing about a lot of phones, smart, or otherwise...


Well, yeah 

But seeing as there are a million and one other options that do more, cost less and don't tie you into one operator, why on earth choose an iphone? 

It's nothing more than a triumph of marketing as far as I can tell, unless I'm really missing something.

And before anyone accuses me of being simply anti Apple - my next machine will be an all singing, all dancing 8 core Mac Pro


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 25, 2007)

Its not just apple though is it? Modern nokias cant be unlocked unless u wait till the end of the contract, the days of taking them down the market or looking on the net on an unlock site are long gone.


----------



## YoursTruly (Sep 25, 2007)

Global_Stoner said:
			
		

> Its not just apple though is it? Modern nokias cant be unlocked unless u wait till the end of the contract, the days of taking them down the market or looking on the net on an unlock site are long gone.



Yeah but Nokia phones are on all of the networks, not just O2. Take my Nokia E65, it might be locked into O2, because my contract is with O2, but if I didn't want a contract with O2, at least I had the option of getting the same phone through other networks. So why should anyone, apart from the Apple fanboys, buy a phone, that is only on O2 and is technically inferior to a heck of a lot of phones out there?

Also, isn't there a law now, where the customer can demand a phone can be unlocked after a certain amount of time, regardless of the length of contract?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 25, 2007)

With 3 its the end of the contract, dont know abou other companies. Why sign a contract for a phone if u dont want the contract, its not really a cheap way of doing it. I dont understand why apple are going to limit themselfs to one network, why not sell them unlocked for the true price? Give it B months and i bet u will be able to get them on other networks.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 25, 2007)

*iPhone trumps HTC Touch, N95 in usability study*

Not sure why they chose these two phones to compare to the iPhone given but there you go...



> We've given you your chance to choose a champion amongst the iPhone, HTC Touch and LG Prada, and while the latter wasn't included at LG's request, the other two were recently pit against Nokia's N95 in a study of usability. The test was reportedly conducted by Perceptive Sciences, a Texas-based usability consulting firm, and relied on data from just ten individuals who had "never used any of the three devices."
> 
> The group was asked to "perform a series of tasks on each handset with quantifiable results, such as the time needed to find and use the on / off switch," and when all was said and done, the iPhone managed to snag the gold. Of course, we wouldn't take these results to be the bonafide truth, but if you're interested in seeing what all the mobiles (and guinea pigs) went through before a winner was chosen, head on over to the read link.


Link


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Not sure why they chose these two phones to compare to the iPhone given but there you go...


It's the battle of three phones with shit keyboards!

I've only tried the HTC's interface/keyboard of that lot and it's really awful, but the Treo would pwn them all.


----------



## rocketman (Sep 25, 2007)

Some speculate Apple isn't so arsed about unlocking, they just want to sell the device, however the deal with the exclusive carriers (and they needed that kind of extra support you get from making a network buy into the concept of the phone to help them launch the device) requires that carriers hand over a percentage of revenue raised through iPhone use, reportedly 40 per cent revenue slice from O2, so AT&T in the US - their interest is bringing in users, so AT&T (it's speculated) has put pressure on Apple to push out and anti-unlocking message to users to protect, not Apple, but AT&T. As AT&T had paid for iPhone distro rights, that is why Apple had to put out this message -- but it took 'em weeks to do so, which suggests to me that their heart isn't truly in it.


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> As AT&T had paid for iPhone distro rights, that is why Apple had to put out this message -- but it took 'em weeks to do so, which suggests to me that their heart isn't truly in it.


Eh?!!

If Apple are getting up to 40 per cent of the carrier's iPhone revenues it's _absolutely in their interest _to maximise that return.

After all, if people unlock their phones and go off with other networks, Apple gets bugger all additional income.


----------



## rocketman (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Eh?!!
> 
> If Apple are getting up to 40 per cent of the carrier's iPhone revenues it's _absolutely in their interest _to maximise that return.
> 
> After all, if people unlock their phones and go off with other networks, Apple gets bugger all additional income.



yeah, but they already got the device - that next step leads them to ubiquity. And they already had some money for the phone, so no real problem (this logic goes). 

Ubiquity is key, it's how come iPod is so popular - it became generic, and kept growing.

So I'd argue that Apple can see that in the big picture,
In any case, I don't have an axe to grind in those assertions, it's just a whisper I keep hearing that I thought may interest some, I offer no guarantee of its veracity, but it is persistent in some quarters


----------



## untethered (Sep 25, 2007)

I don't quite get Apple's strategy here.

Businesses want to commodify their complements. The complement of a mobile phone is the network service.

Why aren't they just selling an open phone on all networks and getting a kickback from all of them, just like the other manufacturers do?

My suspicion is that this is just a short-term deal to bring in a one-off killing on the early adopters and they'll have the phone on all networks within a year or two once the bugs are worked out.


----------



## rocketman (Sep 25, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> and they'll have the phone on all networks within a year or two once the bugs are worked out.



I'm not clear - I came across it somewhere - a three year exclusive, but can't remember in which territory,

Frankly, I'd be watching Google's move into becoming a network operator meself. And if I were Apple I'd be learning about mobile tech - possibly make a small investment in a mobile firm in Uzbecestan, or buy AT&T ir something or other,

I'm no oracle, mind, I'm just shooting me virtual mouth off, as I'm on a deadline and am desperate for distraction


----------



## Sunray (Sep 25, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Some speculate Apple isn't so arsed about unlocking, they just want to sell the device, however the deal with the exclusive carriers (and they needed that kind of extra support you get from making a network buy into the concept of the phone to help them launch the device) requires that carriers hand over a percentage of revenue raised through iPhone use, reportedly 40 per cent revenue slice from O2, so AT&T in the US - their interest is bringing in users, so AT&T (it's speculated) has put pressure on Apple to push out and anti-unlocking message to users to protect, not Apple, but AT&T. As AT&T had paid for iPhone distro rights, that is why Apple had to put out this message -- but it took 'em weeks to do so, which suggests to me that their heart isn't truly in it.



I doubt they have paid anything to Apple, all they have done is taken it up..err..given in to Apples ludicrous demands for the share of Apples glory, so would like to make some cash.

Still cannot understand why Apple bothered with this operator tie in.  I can guarantee they will give up at some point.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Eh?!!
> 
> If Apple are getting up to 40 per cent of the carrier's iPhone revenues it's _absolutely in their interest _to maximise that return.
> 
> After all, if people unlock their phones and go off with other networks, Apple gets bugger all additional income.


Aren't you conflating two different networks in two different countries with two different business deals?


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Aren't you conflating two different networks in two different countries with two different business deals?


I was giving _an example_. The cut is rumoured to be 40% in the UK. No one actually knows the terms of the AT&T deal, but it could be the same for all I know (hence my words, "*up to* 40%).

Seeing as Apple has bagsied an operator's cut in all the territories where they've launched their iPhone, is there a point here or is it just a bit of aimless nitpicking?


----------



## rocketman (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Seeing as Apple has bagsied an operator's cut in all the territories where they've launched their iPhone,  is there a point here or is it just a bit of aimless nitpicking?



I'm indulging in nit-picking myself. 
All we can know is it's profitable - and we can surmise they have a three-year plan,


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 25, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I was giving _an example_. The cut is rumoured to be 40% in the UK. No one actually knows the terms of the AT&T deal, but it could be the same for all I know (hence my words, "*up to* 40%).
> 
> Seeing as Apple has bagsied an operator's cut in all the territories where they've launched their iPhone, is there a point here or is it just a bit of aimless nitpicking?



Yes your point seemed a little thin hence my question.

I've yet to see anything that the other territories the networks gave that much revenue.


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Yes your point seemed a little thin hence my question.


Why was my point 'thin'?

I said that "*if *Apple are getting *up to 40 per cent *of the carrier's iPhone revenues, it's _absolutely in their interest _to maximise that return."

That makes perfect sense so I'm still baffled as to what your point is.



			
				Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I've yet to see anything that the other territories the networks gave that much revenue.


Thing is, you haven't a clue what the figures are. Neither have I.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 26, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Why was my point 'thin'?
> 
> I said that "*if *Apple are getting *up to 40 per cent *of the carrier's iPhone revenues, it's _absolutely in their interest _to maximise that return."
> 
> ...


Sorry but your 'if' looked more like a an assertation than a question upon first reading. Still don't think your point is a particulary big one though...anyhoo...

Anyone care to speculate on what this Friday's update will bring? I had an odd thought that the unlocking thing was pr to stir up interest in Apple ahead of a biggish update announcement...


----------



## jæd (Sep 28, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Sorry but your 'if' looked more like a an assertation than a question upon first reading. Still don't think your point is a particulary big one though...anyhoo...
> 
> Anyone care to speculate on what this Friday's update will bring? I had an odd thought that the unlocking thing was pr to stir up interest in Apple ahead of a biggish update announcement...



Looks like they've locked it down again... All over the blogosphere there's geeks crying over their iPhones...!


----------



## Structaural (Sep 28, 2007)

ha

here's the list:

Today, Apple released updates for iPhone and iWork. The iWork updates were all bug fixes, while the iPhone update provided some much needed features. Most wanted was the iTunes Wi-Fi music store. Here is the list of all the new features, courtesy of MacRumors.com

-iTunes Wi-Fi Music Store
- Louder speakerphone and receiver volume
- Home Button double-click shortcut to phone favorites or music controls
- Space bar double-tap shortcut to intelligently insert period and space
- Mail attachments are viewable in portrait and landscape
- Stocks and cities in Stocks and Weather can be re-ordered
- Apple Bluetooth Headset battery status in the Status Bar
- Support for TV Out
- Preference to turn off EDGE/GPRS when roaming internationally
- New Passcode lock time intervals
- Adjustable alert volume
This update has broken all applications installed by Installer.app. All installed applications were deleted when the update was applied. Do not update your phone if you have unlocked it.

Here is a list of what will happen to your iPhone, courtesy of Engadget.com

- The update will work ok in iPhones with no modification.
- The update will work ok in iPhones with Installer.app (although it gets wiped out. The apps seem to remain in the iPhone, but they won't appear in your screen.)
- The update will work ok in unlocked iPhones, but it will return your iPhone to the activation screen. From there, no activation is possible. The iPhone doesn't get bricked but, if you want to keep using it, don't update your iPhone.
- This has been confirmed with both anySIM and iPhone Sim Free.
- "Third-party applications won't work after the update" (confirmed by Dev Team.)
- "Firmware 1.1.1. relocks iPhone properly"


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 28, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Looks like they've locked it down again... All over the blogosphere there's geeks crying over their iPhones...!



Yeah, I read. Heh.


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2007)

The thing that sucks for iPhone users is that they're stuck with AT&T's high roaming charges when they're away and can't switch to cheaper/better local operators.

There's a good piece in the NYTimes:


> Some people—actually a lot of people—don’t much like AT&T. Or they don’t want to pay AT&T’s roaming fees overseas and would rather use a local cellular company. And these people will always be looking for ways to defeat Apple’s locking system. The simple way to defuse this fight, of course, would simply be for Apple to sell an unlocked iPhone for, say, $300 more than the locked version.
> 
> But this gets at Apple’s propensity for control. The phone is, in some ways, a better experience on AT&T because of its links to voice mail and so on. But does that mean if Apple’s way is better it should always prevent people from using its products in some less optimal way?....
> 
> ...


----------



## Structaural (Sep 28, 2007)

I hope some fucker sues apple and wins.


----------



## jæd (Sep 28, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> I hope some fucker sues apple and wins.



Unlikely in the US that they'd win... Probably more likely in the EU, though...


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2007)

Loads of people are reporting that their iPhones are now well and truly borked.







http://iphone.macworld.com/2007/09/bricking_my_ipod_1.php

Apple has a PR nightmare brewing


----------



## jæd (Sep 28, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Loads of people are reporting that their iPhones are now well and truly borked.
> 
> http://iphone.macworld.com/2007/09/bricking_my_ipod_1.php
> 
> Apple has a PR nightmare brewing



So... Apple warned everyone this might happen, and *they've* get a PR nightmare...? 

Still, if it gets unlocked iPhones out quicker then thats good...!  (Though I doubt it)


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> So... Apple warned everyone this might happen, and *they've* get a PR nightmare...?


I suggest you take it up with the author of the article if you disagree with his opinion but it's worth noting that most of the people who are having problems are Apple fans who - just like Steve Jobs when he started out - like to fiddle about with the things they've _bought._ 

After all, no other phone manufacturer has gone _quite so far out of their way_ to completely bork unlocked phones AFAIK.


----------



## Structaural (Sep 28, 2007)

Cunts, they could at least allow a factory restore. They're bricking phones that haven't even been unlocked - just a few extra apps on there.


----------



## Structaural (Sep 28, 2007)

Mind you I've got no sympathy for those who ran the update with unlocked phones. Dickheads. Should have waited for the crack.
Like putting petrol in a diesel car and then wondering why your engines fucked.


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> They're bricking phones that haven't even been unlocked - just a few extra apps on there.


Outrageous! How dare some punters have the _audacity_ to install non-Jobs approved programs on their own phones that they paid for!!

It's only a shame that Apple can't make the phones go up in a ball of flames as well because those punters need proper punishment.


----------



## jæd (Sep 28, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I suggest you take it up with the author of the article if you disagree with his opinion but it's worth noting that most of the people who are having problems are Apple fans who - just like Steve Jobs when he started out - like to fiddle about with the things they've _bought._
> 
> After all, no other phone manufacturer has gone _quite so far out of their way_ to completely bork unlocked phones AFAIK.



Well, I notice someone has pointed out Apple's clear warning on that blog. The issue of borked unhacked phones is IMO much more of a PR problem...

I wonder what Apple changed...? I'm guessing they modified the iPhones file system so that apps couldn't run from a user-space. (Like the iPod touch...) This could explained the bricked un-hacked phones... (ie, the wrong apps being kept from running)


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 28, 2007)

i think they are waiting to  load the upgrade that means  that  any unlocked phone acts as a  homing signal for apples orbiting laser cannon

that'll teach em


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 28, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> So... Apple warned everyone this might happen, and *they've* get a PR nightmare...?



Yeah I thought pretty much, if anything the news the other day was done to avoid the shock and outrage of the re-lock.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 28, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> Mind you I've got no sympathy for those who ran the update with unlocked phones. Dickheads. Should have waited for the crack.
> Like putting petrol in a diesel car and then wondering why your engines fucked.





Good analogy.


----------



## cybertect (Sep 28, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> I don't quite get Apple's strategy here.
> 
> Businesses want to commodify their complements. The complement of a mobile phone is the network service.
> 
> ...



That assumes they Apple have sufficient production capacity available to meet demand by selling the iPhone with all networks, or (more accurately) that they can risk buying sufficient manufacturing capacity at launch to meet demand that may or may not exist for a totally new product category for the company. 

Remember also the trouble Apple had selling the Newton PDA in the mid-90s. Apple got burned badly and have never forgotten it. Whether the iPhone was going to tank like that, or take off like the iPod (which was a slow build on sales to begin with) was anybody's guess.

Other *phone* manufacturers have well established brands in the market, existing production capacity on tap and will be much better able to predict how sales will go for their new models.

It seems that, even with the AT&T being the only player in town, they did manage to shift a million iPhones by early September, three weeks ahead of target.

As it is, the 8GB model has proven far more popular than expected to the point that they're ceasing manufacture of the 4GB one.

Expect the exclusive deals with single carriers to disappear once Apple is confident they can recoup their investment on new iPhones.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2007)

Spurred on by garnering a response from Palm's head honcho to their 'open letter' a while ago, Mac fanboys deluxe Engadget seem to think they're perfectly positioned to despatch another of their 'open letters', this time to Apple: http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/01/a-note-to-both-apple-and-iphone-customers-on-the-v1-1-1-update/


----------



## untethered (Oct 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Spurred on by garnering a response from Palm's head honcho to their 'open letter' a while ago, Mac fanboys deluxe Engadget seem to think they're perfectly positioned to despatch another of their 'open letters', this time to Apple: http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/01/a-note-to-both-apple-and-iphone-customers-on-the-v1-1-1-update/



I love those open letters.

They're usually couched in terms of, "I'm your biggest fan but here are 150 reasons you're utterly hopeless."

Do you ever get any of those about Urban, editor?


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> Do you ever get any of those about Urban, editor?


All too often, except they usually miss out the "I'm your biggest fan" bit.


----------



## jæd (Oct 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Spurred on by garnering a response from Palm's head honcho to their 'open letter' a while ago, Mac fanboys deluxe Engadget seem to think they're perfectly positioned to despatch another of their 'open letters', this time to Apple: http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/01/a-note-to-both-apple-and-iphone-customers-on-the-v1-1-1-update/



The "open letter" just makes Engadget seem to be up its on arse about how important it is. It also misses the point about Apple not making computers for geeks. Non-geeks don't tend to install apps on phones and rarely unlock them...

There'll be an unlock for the iPhone sometime next year, probably when the SDK comes out to, (a) prop up sales (and it be interesting watching the geeks doing a about-face when that comes out) and (b) satisfy EU requirements...


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> The "open letter" just makes Engadget seem to be up its on arse about how important it is.


Yup.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 1, 2007)

Thing is, its amazing just how influential the fanbois are.  These people will kick up such a storm its reported as major news and the loser so far is Apple which until they do a U-turn I can't see as a bad thing.

I was tempted, but after listening to the constant stream of shit from the 'Church of Apple' I aint gonna buy another Apple gadget ever again.  Apple can fuck off with its control freakery.


----------



## gabi (Oct 1, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> Thing is, its amazing just how influential the fanbois are.  These people will kick up such a storm its reported as major news and the loser so far is Apple which until they do a U-turn I can't see as a bad thing.
> 
> I was tempted, but after listening to the constant stream of shit from the 'Church of Apple' I aint gonna buy another Apple gadget ever again.  Apple can fuck off with its control freakery.



Ha... this thread reminds me of one of Tarrannau's obsesssed man united hating ones. Yawn. 

Ever noticed how 'fanbois' never bother posting up threads commenting on MS's latest 'innovations'? I mean whats the point? Certain posters on this thread have a bizarre and unhealthy obsession with hating Mac, which i really dont get. I use both OS's daily and its clear to me which is vastly superior. Its not from seattle.

Enjoy ya blue screens tho bois


----------



## jæd (Oct 1, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> Thing is, its amazing just how influential the fanbois are.  These people will kick up such a storm its reported as major news and the loser so far is Apple which until they do a U-turn I can't see as a bad thing.
> 
> I was tempted, but after listening to the constant stream of shit from the 'Church of Apple' I aint gonna buy another Apple gadget ever again.  Apple can fuck off with its control freakery.



You reckon...? The most I see is a bunch of geeks spending way too long obsessing over a new gadget. Its keeping the phone in the news which is to Apple's benefit. I suppose when Apple unlock it/offer a sdk it will be a u-turn "caused by the geeks". Ie, yet more pr for the Apple Company...


----------



## Sunray (Oct 1, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> Ha... this thread reminds me of one of Tarrannau's obsesssed man united hating ones. Yawn.
> 
> Ever noticed how 'fanbois' never bother posting up threads commenting on MS's latest 'innovations'? I mean whats the point? Certain posters on this thread have a bizarre and unhealthy obsession with hating Mac, which i really dont get. I use both OS's daily and its clear to me which is vastly superior. Its not from seattle.
> 
> Enjoy ya blue screens tho bois



What this got to do with the Mac or PC's?  

This is a mobile phone thread.  A phone that I was moderately tempted by, but have been utterly put off by all the unnecessary shit that Apple included with what could be a interesting bit of kit.

Anyway, I can't recall the last time I had an unexpected system crash with either Vista or a XP in the last 5 years, so that blue screen shit is just that, shit.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> Enjoy ya blue screens tho bois


Neither OS is "vastly superior" to the other and I haven't had a blue screen for longer than I can recall.

I do hope you're going to offer more to this thread than another lame Mac vs PC rerun.


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 1, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> Ha... this thread reminds me of one of Tarrannau's obsesssed man united hating ones. Yawn.
> 
> Ever noticed how 'fanbois' never bother posting up threads commenting on MS's latest 'innovations'? I mean whats the point? Certain posters on this thread have a bizarre and unhealthy obsession with hating Mac, which i really dont get. I use both OS's daily and its clear to me which is vastly superior. Its not from seattle.
> 
> Enjoy ya blue screens tho bois



Ah I think I see the problem here.  You know, Microsoft haven't released just one operating system!  Are you still using Windows 3.1, thinking nothing has changed???


----------



## gabi (Oct 1, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Neither OS is "vastly superior" to the other and I haven't had a blue screen for longer than I can recall.
> 
> I do hope you're going to offer more to this thread than another lame Mac vs PC rerun.



Fair enough, it just seems to me that certain posters (including yourself) would diss Apple even if they came up with a cure for cancer.

The iPhone is the best phone I've ever had a go on - personally tho im gonna give it a miss and just get the ipod touch, which has all the features i particularly loved on the phone (without the stupidly fucking expensive O2 contract). Ill reserve my judgement on the unlocking issues for now.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> Fair enough, it just seems to me that certain posters (including yourself) would diss Apple even if they came up with a cure for cancer.


That's simply rubbish, but if it makes you feel better, you go on believing that.


----------



## YoursTruly (Oct 2, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Fantastic!



Why be content rebooting a remote web server from your Nokia E70 using ssh/telnet...

..when you can actually run a fucking ported Apache web server on your on your Nokia E70! 

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=167580&package_id=190549&release_id=507641

e2a - assuming the E70 is S60v3 - I think it is...<gulp>


----------



## jæd (Oct 2, 2007)

gabi said:
			
		

> The iPhone is the best phone I've ever had a go on - personally tho im gonna give it a miss and just get the ipod touch, which has all the features i particularly loved on the phone (without the stupidly fucking expensive O2 contract). Ill reserve my judgement on the unlocking issues for now.



Thats most of the reason I got an ipod touch -- to see what all the fuss was about. Its also a very nice shiny gadget as well. I'm interested that it was originally locked down tighter than the iPhone. I'm guessing they continued working on it after they released the iPhone, and the firmware update was (on the the iPhone side) to bring them in line with each other...


----------



## Sunray (Oct 2, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Thats most of the reason I got an ipod touch -- to see what all the fuss was about. Its also a very nice shiny gadget as well. I'm interested that it was originally locked down tighter than the iPhone. I'm guessing they continued working on it after they released the iPhone, and the firmware update was (on the the iPhone side) to bring them in line with each other...



There were complaints that there are a lot of things on the phone that are pointlessly missing on the touch, so which was brought into line?


----------



## jæd (Oct 2, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> There were complaints that there are a lot of things on the phone that are pointlessly missing on the touch, so which was brought into line?



Security. You've never been able to run apps on the 'touch... The update brought security on the iphone in line with the touch...


----------



## jæd (Oct 2, 2007)

Apple have posted a HCI Document for the iPhone. Interesting reading...!

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/iPhone/Conceptual/iPhoneHIG/



> Note: Currently, developers create web applications for iPhone, not native applications. Therefore, this document focuses solely on the presentation of web applications and other web content on iPhone.



Gosh, does that imply a SDK or what...?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 2, 2007)

So does anyone here still want one of these overhyped bits of crap?


----------



## DJ Bigga (Oct 2, 2007)

Yep!


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2007)

DJ Bigga said:
			
		

> Yep!


This could be you!  
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/iphone/b...ius-bar-and-talk-to-the-hand-video-304999.php


----------



## DJ Bigga (Oct 2, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> This could be you!
> http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/iphone/b...ius-bar-and-talk-to-the-hand-video-304999.php



Man that must hurt!  

still. knowing what we all know we just have to be patient just like i had to be patient with my PSP.


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2007)

DJ Bigga said:
			
		

> Man that must hurt!


Thing is, I can see the iPhone is a lovely piece of kit with a gorgeous interface, but the high cost of the thing (and the 18 month contract) puts me right off.

I'd be unlikely to take such an expensive phone down the pub but my main beef would be not being able to fiddle about with the thing and load up tons of software.

I don't think I could resist the temptation to load up some non-Herr Jobs approved software and then I'd run the risk of borking the thing into a very expensive brick.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 2, 2007)

*iPhone Extreme coming?*

Yet more rumours...









> Our Deutchland compadres to the East, MacPrime have found a little nugget of gold. It could be a HTML programming error but we, of course, like to speculate that there is more. If you look at the source code of Apple's iPhone Feedback Page, you'll notice the term* iPhone Extreme.*
> While "Extreme" is a tired name in the tech marketing world, Apple still has an affinity for it. You have to look no further than Apple's Airport line to find the name denoting the latest and greatest iteration of the product.
> So what would this iPhone have? Yep 16Gb Ram, 3G and GPS. Finally. All signs point to February. Kinda early to be telling the HTML coders if you ask us.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 2, 2007)

in next weeks article we hire private detectives to go through steve jobs rubbish

stay tuned for some shocking results


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 2, 2007)

DJ Bigga said:
			
		

> Yep!


But...... _why?_  

Genuine question!


----------



## DJ Bigga (Oct 2, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> But...... _why?_
> 
> Genuine question!



Well for starters I'm a bit of a gadget magpie  But also 

1) I'm currently on O2 
2) am at the end of my current 18 month contract
3) have been seriously considering an Ipod of the last 3 months or so
4) Need a new phone (though I would prefer a smarter smart phone than this)
And most importantly
5) None of the downsides I've read about are enough to put me off!


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2007)

DJ Bigga said:
			
		

> 3) have been seriously considering an Ipod of the last 3 months or so
> 4) Need a new phone (though I would prefer a smarter smart phone than this)
> And most importantly


Why not just get an iPod and a more capable phone?
The Nokia N95 has a ton more functionality - e.g. GPS, video, MMS etc - than the iPhone and it's free with the kind of contract you'd be committing to 02 with!

I have to say I've been (unexpectedly) mightily impressed with the Palm 500v/Vodafone combo too. 

The phone's cheap as fuck and the location based services and TV stuff are really good.


----------



## DJ Bigga (Oct 2, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Why not just get an iPod and a more capable phone?
> The Nokia N95 has a ton more functionality - e.g. GPS, video, MMS etc - than the iPhone and it's free with the kind of contract you'd be committing to 02 with!
> 
> I have to say I've been (unexpectedly) mightily impressed with the Palm 500v/Vodafone combo too.
> ...



true, I am aware of the N95 I'm currently walking around with the N91, Problem with N95 though is it just ain't pretty is it? Also it again isn't really 'smart' enough. Ideally I'd like the feature set of a Treo all wrapped up in a Iphone.
<ducks>


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2007)

DJ Bigga said:
			
		

> true, I am aware of the N95 I'm currently walking around with the N91, Problem with N95 though is it just ain't pretty is it? Also it again isn't really 'smart' enough. Ideally I'd like the feature set of a Treo all wrapped up in a Iphone.
> <ducks>


Specifically, what features are you after? The iPhone is pretty, but it's barely what I'd call a smartphone.


----------



## DJ Bigga (Oct 2, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Specifically, what features are you after? The iPhone is pretty, but it's barely what I'd call a smartphone.



No exactly, it's not smart at all, though it is _very_ pretty.  

Ideally this is the feature set I'd like to see:

Bluetooth (file transfer, accessories etc)
Wifi
Mini USB for charging and Data connection
full html/java/flash browser
Mass storage capabilities
Email and calendar
outlook/thunderbird sync
usb modem capability 
Music player of at least 4gb


I'm sure I'll remember a few more later


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2007)

DJ Bigga said:
			
		

> Ideally this is the feature set I'd like to see:
> 
> Bluetooth (file transfer, accessories etc)
> Wifi
> ...


You'll  find far better email clients available on WM/Palm devices, and there's more flexible and powerful calender apps available on those platforms too (and quite possibly Symbian too).

Flash doesn't work on the iPhone's Safari browser, neither does Java and I don't think it natively syncs with Thunderbird either. Last time I looked, you couldn't use the iPhone as a modem. 

I could be wrong here, but I think you need to use a 3rd party app to use the iPhone as a mass storage tool - and that means running the risk of having your phone turned into a brick. I don't think it does Bluetooth file transfers either - in fact, it doesn't do a great deal of Bluetooth, full stop.

AFAIK, if you use iPhone it'll want you to be tied very closely to iTunes too.

Incidentally, the Treo does most of the above, except no Wi-Fi, Flash browsing and USB charging (unless you use the Windows version). The Nokia ticks most of those boxes, albeit at the expense of a pretty horrible form factor/interface.

One thing: if you get a 3G/unlimited data deal, the need for wi-fi does decrease dramatically. I don't miss it and surfing on a small screen is always going to be shit if you're looking for a full graphics experience really.


----------



## jæd (Oct 2, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I don't miss it and surfing on a small screen is always going to be shit if you're looking for a full graphics experience really.



Not really. The Nokia e61 has a very slick browser, and the iPhones is even better. The thing about the iPhone is that is basic, but it works very well without spodding around. 

Palm would be nice but until they come out with a GSM version of the Centro its wait-and-see pie...


----------



## DJ Bigga (Oct 2, 2007)

Yeah I know of all of the Iphones specs including lack of bluetooth and the whole mass storage thing, I'm aware of most of the negatives surrounding it but I still think it's a hell of a gadget. Who knows I might sell it after a month and get a Treo!


----------



## jæd (Oct 2, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I could be wrong here, but I think you need to use a 3rd party app to use the iPhone as a mass storage tool - and that means running the risk of having your phone turned into a brick. I don't think it does Bluetooth file transfers either - in fact, it doesn't do a great deal of Bluetooth, full stop.



You'd need a 3rd party tool (ie iPhuc) to do it. Do you risk bricking it using this...? Yep, but most of tales of woe have now been debunked.


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> You'd need a 3rd party tool (ie iPhuc) to do it. Do you risk bricking it using this...? Yep, but most of tales of woe have now been debunked.


Either way, you're inviting a load of potential grief and possible damage to your phone just to do what the phone should have done in the first place.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 3, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You'll  find far better email clients available on WM/Palm devices, and there's more flexible and powerful calender apps available on those platforms too (and quite possibly Symbian too).
> 
> Flash doesn't work on the iPhone's Safari browser, neither does Java and I don't think it natively syncs with Thunderbird either. Last time I looked, you couldn't use the iPhone as a modem.
> 
> ...



I think this shows that Apple missed a trick really and there is no winner in this little tortoise race.  There is defo a market for a slick phone with all the above, nobody has cornered it.


----------



## jæd (Oct 3, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Either way, you're inviting a load of potential grief and possible damage to your phone just to do what the phone should have done in the first place.



Why "should" a phone be a portable hard-drive...?  If you want that then buy a portable hard-drive... Personally I like gadgets to do what they are best at.

(And if you find yourself doing that all the time, get a phone with that function. The iPhone is a nice consumer phone. Its not for spoddy people who spend their time fiddling with things to get them to work. Not sure how complicated this is...)

Sure the Treo and others can do that but its been very rare that I've actually used that dunctionality... Most of the time I use my phone for calling people...


----------



## Sunray (Oct 3, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Why "should" a phone be a portable hard-drive...?  If you want that then buy a portable hard-drive... Personally I like gadgets to do what they are best at.
> 
> (And if you find yourself doing that all the time, get a phone with that function. The iPhone is a nice consumer phone. Its not for spoddy people who spend their time fiddling with things to get them to work. Not sure how complicated this is...)
> 
> Sure the Treo and others can do that but its been very rare that I've actually used that dunctionality... *Most of the time I use my phone for calling people...*



Perhaps thats because the operators and phone manufacturers have combined so that you couldn't be arsed to do anything else as its stupidly hard to do.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 3, 2007)

i think the browser on the e61 was awfull, opera is way better.


----------



## jæd (Oct 3, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> Perhaps thats because the operators and phone manufacturers have combined so that you couldn't be arsed to do anything else as its stupidly hard to do.



Not really... The Treo is very easy to use as a portable hard-drive. Its just that if I'm going to copying something its even easier to use a portable hard-drive because 100% of the time I have a portable hard-drive near me I have the correct cable for it... I don't carry the cable for my Treo all the time...

That, and if I'm going to copy a file thats too big to email, its going to not fit on my Treo anyway...


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2007)

Good peice in the NY Times about Apple/AT&T's attitude to 3rd party programs:

AT&T Welcomes Programmers for All Phones Except the iPhone
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/01/att-welcomes-programmers-for-all-phones-except-the-iphone/


----------



## Structaural (Oct 4, 2007)

LG brings out an iPhone 'killer'  - a touchscreen phone with built in real keyboard.








http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/8405.html


----------



## jæd (Oct 8, 2007)

Interesting post that could mean that there may be an Iphone SDK:



> This afternoon I received an announcement from the Apple Developer Connection announcing their upcoming Performance Tuning workshops. These intensive developer camps aren’t unusual - Apple hosted iPhone web development seminars this summer. However, the description for this one caught my eye. It read (emphasis mine):
> 
> These 3-day workshops are designed to provide you with the tools and understanding you need to enhance application performance on Apple’s desktop and mobile platforms.



Doesn't seem to be web based as:



> In addition to the hands-on coding, you’ll see technical presentations on:
> 
> * • Architecture of the Intel multi-core processor
> * • Apple’s powerful set of performance analysis tools
> * • Best practices for using Xcode in your development effort



That sounds like more than just AJAX on the iPhone... 

http://sitening.com/blog/2007/10/05/new-evidence-of-an-apple-iphone-sdk/


----------



## Crispy (Oct 8, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> LG brings out an iPhone 'killer'  - a touchscreen phone with built in real keyboard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That thing has *2* enormous screens.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 10, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> That thing has *2* enormous screens.



and is probably half the price.

Nokia have waded in with this ad:  Good. Apple's proprietarily-ness (I must have made that up) is gettting out of hand (and you don't realise til you buy a mac how deep it is).


----------



## jæd (Oct 10, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> and is probably half the price.
> 
> Nokia have waded in with this ad:  Good. Apple's proprietarily-ness (I must have made that up) is gettting out of hand (and you don't realise til you buy a mac how deep it is).



I'd be interested in what you mean by that... Most of OS X appears to be built on open-source systems. So far there isn't anything that can't be replaced by non-Apple alternatives...


----------



## Structaural (Oct 10, 2007)

proprietary doesn't just mean 'not open-source'

Let's see, 

you pretty much have to buy their hardware to use their OS, this almost always been the case - but that pretty much establishes them as proprietary.
if you tamper with your own purchased phone then it can be bricked
if you wish to use third party (say Linux) iTunes software then it's nixed on almost every update to the firmware.
iWeb will only export websites to .mac (you have to export to folder and ftp to your own site) - and won't allow many features on non .mac sites.
I can barely use any third party camera's on my macpro and the iSight is no longer available.
Only three graphic cards (prices, 130, 500, 1200euros) out of the massive choice for pcs are available because Apples insists on writing it's own drivers and won't allow enough choice, and they all work out around 30-80% more expensive.
To the initiated RAM is very overpriced and often made apple specific (like adding a massive heat sink to pro ram so they don't have to put in an extra fan)
No developer kits for Apple TV, iPod and only very limited one on iPhone.
Can't play DivX, Xvid on Apple TV (unless you hack it).
They've almost fucked Microsoft off their platform and seem to have Adobe in their sights as well. That worries me because I don't want to rely on one company for my hardware, my OS and my Apps.

Ultimately my biggest beef with apple is the lack of choice - no decent middleweight desktop machine - limited choice of hardware to put in your machines, and the fact that they've always made it difficult to upgrade (especially the iMacs), I'd be surprised if I can replace the motherboard in my macpro in 4 years time.

Now I knew most of this because I've worked on Macs since 1988, but I'd never owned one at home until this year, and there's a certain frustration with being locked into one company for a lot of what I want/need. The realisation that Apple seem to go out of their way to scupper a lot of third party development (fucking up old TV connectors to the iPod for instance) pisses me off. That's all.. 

I remember the end of the eighties when massive proprietary companies like Dicomed, Crosfield and Sun systems were almost ruined because their extremely overpriced in-house systems were easily replaced with PCs and Macs (where's the Quantel Paintbox now?) and I was glad. So it seems mildy annoying that Apple seems to have a similar strategy. Or maybe the business model is based more on Bang Olufsen's these days.


----------



## jæd (Oct 10, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> proprietary doesn't just mean 'not open-source'



I know. But it does mean that a component/item is tied to one supplier, ie, Apple. Not that a deature may be missing or a SDK isn't available to everyone... (Have you tried the Developer Network... Apple's seems quite good)

Out of your laundry list, I'd say only the following come close:




			
				Structaural said:
			
		

> you pretty much have to buy their hardware to use their OS, this almost always been the case - but that pretty much establishes them as proprietary.
> Only three graphic cards (prices, 130, 500, 1200euros) out of the massive choice for pcs are available because Apples insists on writing it's own drivers and won't allow enough choice, and they all work out around 30-80% more expensive.
> To the initiated RAM is very overpriced and often made apple specific (like adding a massive heat sink to pro ram so they don't have to put in an extra fan)



Items like firmware can be replaced. And its no surprise that updating the Apple firmware over a 3rd-party firmware will wipe it...

Oh, and I've got a Logitech web-cam that runs fun under OS X...


----------



## Sunray (Oct 10, 2007)

Most of the above is the reason I don't buy Mac.  I like to have a nice choice of hardware to plug into  my machine and not worry that it doesn't have drivers.

Apples weird shift to tie everything into them is strange. Strange because the original iPod's fame (and essentially Apples new 'cool' status) was pretty much born out of being able top play stuff from anywhere. 

They have become increasingly 'Me me me' without anything of substance to make their products stand out. OK it might be easier to use for the non-tech, but that alone does not justify their current attitude.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 10, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> I know. But it does mean that a component/item is tied to one supplier, ie, Apple. Not that a deature may be missing or a SDK isn't available to everyone... (Have you tried the Developer Network... Apple's seems quite good)
> 
> Out of your laundry list, I'd say only the following come close:
> 
> ...



I've two Logitechs that don't... (mac cam or that other driver won't make them worth either - annoying as one of them cost 60 quid).

That turned into a bit of a rant, I just want to put an nVidia 8800 or 8500 in my mac at the end of the day. I can avoid the rest of Job's kingdom of aliminium quite easily.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 10, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> Apples weird shift to tie everything into them is strange. Strange because the original iPod's fame (and essentially Apples new 'cool' status) was pretty much born out of being able top play stuff from anywhere.



I agree, the main selling point was that, a decent device to fill up with all those Napster tunes


----------



## Structaural (Oct 10, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> I've two Logitechs that don't... (mac cam or that other driver won't make them worth either - annoying as one of them cost 60 quid).
> 
> That turned into a bit of a rant, I just want to put an nVidia 8800 or 8500 in my mac at the end of the day. I can avoid the rest of Job's kingdom of aliminium quite easily.



annoyingly there's a nv8600 in the new MacBook Pro


----------



## jæd (Oct 10, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> Apples weird shift to tie everything into them is strange. Strange because the original iPod's fame (and essentially Apples new 'cool' status) was pretty much born out of being able top play stuff from anywhere.



You still can...  




			
				Sunray said:
			
		

> They have become increasingly 'Me me me' without anything of substance to make their products stand out. OK it might be easier to use for the non-tech, but that alone does not justify their current attitude.



They've always done this kind of thing (espcially) with hardware... Remember the weird and wonderful interfaces they used to have... Eg, Nubus...


----------



## Structaural (Oct 10, 2007)

But before they used chips no-one else used, the inside of an mac is pretty much the same as most pcs now, so it's not much to expect a little more choice. Tossers. (Teach me to not do enough research - I assumed I could put any card in it).

e2a Maybe I can with this (wanky-named) site's help: http://www.themacelite.com/forums/index.php


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2007)

Reviewer gives up on iPhone and goes back to Treo 680_ shocka!_

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21206757/


----------



## jæd (Oct 16, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Reviewer gives up on iPhone and goes back to Treo 680_ shocka!_
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21206757/



Yawn. He installed a 3rd-party app tool on the day of the firmware 1.1.1 update and bricked it... No-wonder he went back to the 680...


----------



## DJ Bigga (Oct 16, 2007)

Well I've finally made my decision and after much deliberation I've decided there are just too many drawbacks to the IPhone for me to abandon my irrational hatred of all things Apple.  
So I'm buying one of these and getting an 8gb N95 for free.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 16, 2007)

i don't useually vent like thid but

had  to set up the new mac for work today


the fucking thing crashed on me summin like 5 times

crashed quicktime trying to play some video 

crashed finder and system preferences trying to change the desktop picture

crashed system preferences  every fucking single time i tried to add safari to the logon items list


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2007)

DJ Bigga said:
			
		

> Well I've finally made my decision and after much deliberation I've decided there are just too many drawbacks to the IPhone for me to abandon my irrational hatred of all things Apple.
> So I'm buying one of these and getting an 8gb N95 for free.


I don't really 'get' those Nokia tablets to be honest and I loathe onscreen keyboards, but bear in mind that the 'chunky' N95 8GB has no memory card slot.


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Yawn. He installed a 3rd-party app tool on the day of the firmware 1.1.1 update and bricked it...


Yawn. You haven't read the article properly before engaging knee jerk reaction mode again, have you?

I do wish you'd stop doing that.

Try reading the last few paragraphs.


----------



## DJ Bigga (Oct 16, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I don't really 'get' those Nokia tablets to be honest and I loathe onscreen keyboards, but bear in mind that the 'chunky' N95 8GB has no memory card slot.



My n91 hasn't got one either. nokia Pc suite is good enough for me to do all the transfer work I need to.


----------



## jæd (Oct 16, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Yawn. You haven't read the article properly before engaging knee jerk reaction mode again, have you?
> 
> I do wish you'd stop doing that.
> 
> Try reading the last few paragraphs.



Yes I did, thanks... It looks like the reporter wants something that he can stick 3rd party apps on and it wasn't for him... The iPhone isn't a power-users phone... (Its why I personally won't be getting one...)


----------



## jæd (Oct 16, 2007)

Shippou-Chan said:
			
		

> i don't useually vent like thid but
> 
> had  to set up the new mac for work today
> 
> ...



Sounds like dodgy ram, or something flaking out. Probably best return it...


----------



## dada (Oct 16, 2007)

has this one been mentioned?






http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/03/samsungs-croix-yet-another-iphone-rival/


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Yes I did, thanks... It looks like the reporter wants something that he can stick 3rd party apps on and it wasn't for him... The iPhone isn't a power-users phone...


Yes, that and the lack of support for creating Word docs, the lack of removeable batteries, the continuing absence of cut and paste, the lack of real updates and his growing preference for a real keyboard.


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2007)

dada said:
			
		

> has this one been mentioned?


*looks for a proper keyboard
*loses interest


----------



## 43mhz (Oct 16, 2007)

Shippou-Chan said:
			
		

> i don't useually vent like thid but
> 
> had  to set up the new mac for work today
> 
> ...



Did you repair permissions in Disk Utility?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 17, 2007)

no 

it was working when i did it again this morning

apple... it's the new microsoft


----------



## jæd (Oct 17, 2007)

Shippou-Chan said:
			
		

> apple... it's the new microsoft



Apparently Google is the new Apple,  but who's Microsoft...?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 17, 2007)

i think they are an obscure linux distro


----------



## rocketman (Oct 17, 2007)

Here's interesting for all iPhone wathcers.
Apple to release iPhone developers SDK in February
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/

Let me just say it: We want native third party applications on the iPhone, and we plan to have an SDK in developers’ hands in February. S. JObs


----------



## Crispy (Oct 17, 2007)

Not surprised. Also not surprised that they're agonising over how open to make it.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Here's interesting for all iPhone wathcers.
> Apple to release iPhone developers SDK in February
> http://www.apple.com/hotnews/
> 
> Let me just say it: We want native third party applications on the iPhone, and we plan to have an SDK in developers’ hands in February. S. JObs


All new apps will still have to be approved by Herr Jobs & Co though, no?


----------



## Crispy (Oct 17, 2007)

They haven't said yet, but there will be some sort of application signing, yes. You know what apple are like, they want to maintain the pristine experience for the users, so would hate for malicious or malformed applications to get out onto the iphone.


----------



## rocketman (Oct 17, 2007)

Well, it looks like they are attempting to create a viable compromise, according to El Jobso. 

As he says: "Some companies are already taking action. Nokia, for example, is not allowing any applications to be loaded onto some of their newest phones unless they have a digital signature that can be traced back to a known developer. While this makes such a phone less than “totally open,” we believe it is a step in the right direction. We are working on an advanced system which will offer developers broad access to natively program the iPhone’s amazing software platform while at the same time protecting users from malicious programs."

So it could be more open than you predict, but clearly not a totally open session for malware writers. Still, given that this is one of the reasons people give for rejecting the device, it is at least an attempt to address what people think.

Hmm - what apps would be the business?


----------



## jæd (Oct 17, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Here's interesting for all iPhone wathcers.
> Apple to release iPhone developers SDK in February
> http://www.apple.com/hotnews/
> 
> Let me just say it: We want native third party applications on the iPhone, and we plan to have an SDK in developers’ hands in February. S. JObs



Nice... Although its what everyone's been saying for a while -- this morning I was reading yet more rumours of a SDK in Jan/Feb. If Palm don't get their act together soon (ie Feb) I might be in the market for an iPhone...! 

I'm also guessing at unlocked iPhones around then as well...! 



> P.S.: The SDK will also allow developers to create applications for iPod touch. [Oct 17, 2007]



Hhmmmm... PDA, anyone...


----------



## rocketman (Oct 17, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Hhmmmm... PDA, anyone...



Yeah, give me an email app on the touch and I'll have it. Last thing I need is people calling up. Email and Web access in me pocket - great...

Then again, the touch enabled sub notebook can't be too far away, either. And I"m looking forward to transportable HOme folders (which I reckon is possible now)


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Email and Web access in me pocket - great...


If that's all you're after, there's loads of decent PDAs out there that will do just that and a whole load more. Unless it simply _has_ to be Apple, of course.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Nice... Although its what everyone's been saying for a while -- this morning I was reading yet more rumours of a SDK in Jan/Feb. If Palm don't get their act together soon (ie Feb) I might be in the market for an iPhone...!


FYI, I've been tipped off that a GSM Palm Centro might be coming 'shortly after Christmas.'

I hope he's right.


----------



## rocketman (Oct 17, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> If that's all you're after, there's loads of decent PDAs out there that will do just that and a whole load more. Unless it simply _has_ to be Apple, of course.



Sure, but for me it does have to be Apple and you know why. Saying that I would like to try some more of the other devices, but so many feel so very _mechanical_, you know?


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Sure, but for me it does have to be Apple and you know why.


I don't actually. Why does it _have_ to be Apple? 

I like Palm - a lot - but I'd happily switch brands if I found some other brand else creating something better suited my needs.

I don't really understand this _'must. buy. Apple. no. matter. what' _mentality, to be honest. 

It sounds to me like the new Nokia could be a better choice for you but I guess you won't be interested.


----------



## paolo (Oct 17, 2007)

Had a play with an ipod touch the other day... I'm totally sold... iPhone on Nov 9th for me.

Problems I expect: O2 EDGE Coverage being a bit shit. A few irritations in the UI. I think the cut and paste thing will be annoying. Data a bit slow even with EDGE. No multi-send SMS.

"Problem" I surely know: A bit pricey.

BUT! The joy for sure: A really good UI. Really really good. Win CE, Symbian et al don't come near, at least as a personal device rather than business. And if it was business, Blackberry is what I'd get.

Proper browser. A real proper browser. OK it's Safari, but it's a "real" Browser.

The iPhone isn't issue free, for sure (especially not the pricing & sales policy), but I don't think it's really comparable with anything else out there.


----------



## rocketman (Oct 17, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I don't actually. Why does it _have_ to be Apple?
> 
> I like Palm - a lot - but I'd happily switch brands if I found some other brand else creating something better suited my needs.
> 
> ...



Oh crap I thought you realised. I know about Apple stuff because (if you like) my job is to know in order to help other people who don't, so using the kit is part of that. Does that make sense now?

As per the other thing Palm, Nokia, whatever, I don't care what technology anyone uses (as long as it's not that evil anti-competitive government cock sucking DOJ antitrust settlement Bush government buying bunch of cunts in Redmond) as long as it works for them. 

Ther'es no vested interest, here. I'd _love_ to look at the new Nokia, but not so much Palm (who will be *very* interesting in around 18-months, I reckon, once new management kick in.

I'm no fanboi. But that sector is my industry, you know?
Well, you do know, cos I told you before, perhaps you weren't listening, whatever, I ain't saying it here though 'cos it's MY PERSONAL stuff - you know?


----------



## rocketman (Oct 17, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> The iPhone isn't issue free, for sure (especially not the pricing & sales policy), but I don't think it's really comparable with anything else out there.



Buy it in France? They will be sold unlocked there because the law demands it - thank god for the French understanding of democracy and openness.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Oh crap I thought you realised. I know about Apple stuff because (if you like) my job is to know in order to help other people who don't, so using the kit is part of that. Does that make sense now?


Sure. My job also involves using and reviewing technology but when it comes to actually buying stuff out of my own money for my own personal use, I only ever get the stuff _I_ want.


----------



## rocketman (Oct 17, 2007)

The spectacular supermarket really is a wonderful place, so full of pretty things to choose from.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> The spectacular supermarket really is a wonderful place, so full of pretty things to choose from.


Are you on the pop tonight, like?


----------



## rocketman (Oct 17, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Are you on the pop tonight, like?



Don't be silly. Situationism means we spend our live lost in the supermarket of desire, brand, or anti-brand loyalty are meaningless.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 18, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Don't be silly. Situationism means we spend our live lost in the supermarket of desire, brand, or anti-brand loyalty are meaningless.



it's like a marketing student and a zen buddist got caught in a teleportation accident


----------



## paolo (Oct 18, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Buy it in France? They will be sold unlocked there because the law demands it - thank god for the French understanding of democracy and openness.



Yep... there will be two versions there - locked (std price) and unlocked (premium price).

_If_ Apple doesn't nobble the French unlocked phone in some other way then - depending on how much of a premium they want - that _could_ work out cheaper for me.

Price for the unlocked version will be announce in November apparently. I'd guess it will be at least 749 euros, so that Apple gets the same profit that they would otherwise get from a locked phone (the AT&T kickback is 360ish dollars, apparently).


----------



## Sunray (Oct 18, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Yep... there will be two versions there - locked (std price) and unlocked (premium price).
> 
> _If_ Apple doesn't nobble the French unlocked phone in some other way then - depending on how much of a premium they want - that _could_ work out cheaper for me.
> 
> Price for the unlocked version will be announce in November apparently. I'd guess it will be at least 749 euros, so that Apple gets the same profit that they would otherwise get from a locked phone (the AT&T kickback is 360ish dollars, apparently).



749 euros!!!  

That would be insane, pricing the iPhone at nearly the same level as their laptops.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Price for the unlocked version will be announce in November apparently. I'd guess it will be at least 749 euros...


£525?!!!!

That's a fucking ridiculous price for a phone.


----------



## untethered (Oct 18, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> £525?!!!!
> 
> That's a fucking ridiculous price for a phone.



My phone cost £20. It can make calls, send texts, tell the time and it's even got a torch built in.

When I need to use a computer, I do.


----------



## cybertect (Oct 18, 2007)

It is a lot of money, but hardly unprecedented.

If you buy a Nokia N95  from Nokia without contract will set you back £499.00. An 8800 is £599.00


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2007)

cybertect said:
			
		

> It is a lot of money, but hardly unprecedented.
> 
> If you buy a Nokia N95  from Nokia without contract will set you back £499.00. An 8800 is £599.00


Difference is, you can get the N95 for free on cheaper contracts than the iPhone.

You can also buy new unlocked N95s for a _lot_ less than your figure if you look around on the web.


----------



## jæd (Oct 18, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Difference is, you can get the N95 for free on cheaper contracts than the iPhone.
> 
> You can also buy new unlocked N95s for a _lot_ less than your figure if you look around on the web.



That would be because the N95's been out longer. Wait a year or so and and the same thing will happen with the iPhone...


----------



## cybertect (Oct 18, 2007)

Quite, and I figured €749 was paulo's estimate of the SRP. I imagine Nokia are selling at the SRP from their web site. Of course you're usually going to find things well below SRP if you look around.

I was comparing Apples with Apples and not Oranges ['scuse the pun ]


----------



## paolo (Oct 18, 2007)

Yep indeed. 749 was a guess at SRP.

The good thing is that it will make it more transparent. If you think, unlocked, an N95 at price x is more attractive than an iPhone at price y, you can make that decision objectively.

It's questionable whether the iPhone is value for money right now, but it _is_ a step change for phones - it combines the world's most popular music player, with a phone that continues the same values that made the iPod No.1


----------



## Crispy (Oct 18, 2007)

3 years from now will be the best place to judge it, I think.


----------



## paolo (Oct 18, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> 3 years from now will be the best place to judge it, I think.



Kind of.

Do you reckon the competitors won't be revising their plans until then?


----------



## Sunray (Oct 18, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> .... it combines the world's most popular music player, with a phone that continues the same values that made the iPod No.1



What made the iPod number 1 was by making a device that in many ways was perfect at doing the music playing thing.  Thats it.  There is a certain asthetic in is simplicity.

In todays world, they are nothing like the iPod mini that I have.  They are these video, phone, photo video things that don't resemble the orginal in any way other than their name.  Even the new nano is this ugly little squat device.

With Apples current attitude to the world, I see nothing to recommend any of their products.


----------



## paolo (Oct 18, 2007)

The novelty features (e.g. video) haven't made it worse _music player_ though?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 19, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> What made the iPod number 1 was by making a device that in many ways was perfect at doing the music playing thing.  Thats it.  There is a certain asthetic in is simplicity.
> 
> In todays world, they are nothing like the iPod mini that I have.  They are these video, phone, photo video things that don't resemble the orginal in any way other than their name.  Even the new nano is this ugly little squat device.
> 
> With Apples current attitude to the world, I see nothing to recommend any of their products.



You see, this post doesn't make sense to me. The new nano is fugly, I'll give you that, but that's the exception in the range. You talk about the 'asthetic in its simplicity' (sic) as if it's no longer there, but the new ipod Touch exactly follows that philosophy - a simple tablet screen with just one external button, with an even better, more intuitive control mechanism than the scroll wheel. The form follows function - it's difficult to envisage how they could have made the design aesthetic any simpler.

Outside of that you've exactly the same traditional ipod, now renamed classic, available at lower cost and higher capacity. And the iphone, which although not for everyone,  is an innovative addition to the range.

No disrespect, but you seem to be chomping at the bit to make unwarranted criticisms of Apple based on some shonky logic.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 19, 2007)

You miss my point.

They did this one thing near perfectly, and that one thing is what most people want.  

Now they do this basket of things, including the phone.  By including all these new features they have diluted that original winning formula, because it can be done and not because it needed to be done.

They have lacked direction.  The video is less than functional, it might look pretty but does not play Divx so I would have to spend 5-10 min per video on a Quad Core machine with 2Gb ram per Divx and how many people can do that.  The phone isn't setting the phone world on fire in any other way apart from the some massive hype which stems from the original iPod wave.

At some point that wave will reach shore.  I also get the feeling that Apple are trying to fleece their customers while that wave still has power rather than creating a new wave by making products that do what will make them money rather than do what people want.  

Perhaps they will U-turn and Jobs will get one of those classic American round of applauses when he does.





			
				tarannau said:
			
		

> You see, this post doesn't make sense to me. The new nano is fugly, I'll give you that, but that's the exception in the range. You talk about the 'asthetic in its simplicity' (sic) as if it's no longer there, but the new ipod Touch exactly follows that philosophy - a simple tablet screen with just one external button, with an even better, more intuitive control mechanism than the scroll wheel. The form follows function - it's difficult to envisage how they could have made the design aesthetic any simpler.
> 
> Outside of that you've exactly the same traditional ipod, now renamed classic, available at lower cost and higher capacity. And the iphone, which although not for everyone,  is an innovative addition to the range.
> 
> No disrespect, but you seem to be chomping at the bit to make unwarranted criticisms of Apple based on some shonky logic.


----------



## jæd (Oct 19, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> What made the iPod number 1 was by making a device that in many ways was perfect at doing the music playing thing.  Thats it.  There is a certain asthetic in is simplicity.
> 
> In todays world, they are nothing like the iPod mini that I have.  They are these video, phone, photo video things that don't resemble the orginal in any way other than their name.  Even the new nano is this ugly little squat device.
> 
> With Apples current attitude to the world, I see nothing to recommend any of their products.



Its called "progress"... When the Ipod came out there were lots of criticisms... It was firewire + Mac compatible only and it took at least three revisions to get to the "Classic" ipod. But hey, lets just bash Apple because its fashionable... 

And I never liked the design of the original Ipod Mini, anyhow...


----------



## tarannau (Oct 19, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> You miss my point.
> 
> They did this one thing near perfectly, and that one thing is what most people want.
> 
> ...



Again, I'm struggling to see the merits of your criticism. The fact they do a 'basket' of things is something of a diversion; the ipod still plays music fantastically well. Use the Touch and it'll feel more responsive, more easily navigable and more intuitive. 

As for offering video on it, that's an optional extra that nearly every other manufacturer offers. I'd also say the Touch looks and handles video better than most - your main criticism seems to be that you've locked your own video collection into DivX and it's not supported natively - which it never has been on Itunes. It seems a strange criticism.

Add to that an excellent web browser and impressive multitouch gubbins and the ipod touch seems a logical progression, addition rather than dilution. If it really floats your boat, only load your music on and you'll still end up with a way better, more durable and speedy music player to use than your mini.


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 19, 2007)

So the iPod touch is around £270 or something, and it's pretty much just an iPhone without the phone features.

Does that mean that the minimum profit on an iphone for apple is something like £200?


----------



## paolo (Oct 19, 2007)

8 gig touch is 199. Unlocked 8 gig iphone will probably be at least 500. So yes, massive profit. A million sold in the us in the first 74 days. Apple will have a good year, financially.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 19, 2007)

Its all dilution of core product focus for no real gain. My iPod mini is perfect for what I want and is the perfect size, perhaps it could be larger memory wise but for common use its doing a fine job.  

I do not need another player with bells on.  I'm not saying I couldn't be tempted but unless it does it with the ease that I get with my iPod and mp3's its near useless.  So there has been a loss of focus on what is the core element of the phone. It might still do the music well, but without  multi-format video playing, its redundant.  Does it do the Phone elements, well probably but its not got 'rave' reviews on its Phone functionality.  Its therefore not really much of an upgrade to the iPod mini + SE K810i that I currently have, and the 810i takes better pictures.








			
				tarannau said:
			
		

> Again, I'm struggling to see the merits of your criticism. The fact they do a 'basket' of things is something of a diversion; the ipod still plays music fantastically well. Use the Touch and it'll feel more responsive, more easily navigable and more intuitive.
> 
> As for offering video on it, that's an optional extra that nearly every other manufacturer offers. I'd also say the Touch looks and handles video better than most - your main criticism seems to be that you've locked your own video collection into DivX and it's not supported natively - which it never has been on Itunes. It seems a strange criticism.
> 
> Add to that an excellent web browser and impressive multitouch gubbins and the ipod touch seems a logical progression, addition rather than dilution. If it really floats your boat, only load your music on and you'll still end up with a way better, more durable and speedy music player to use than your mini.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 19, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> But hey, lets just bash Apple because its fashionable...


Hardly.

Lets bash apple becuase the iphone is an overyhyped, overpriced heap of cack.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 19, 2007)

Again this is bollocks. Does the lack of 'multi-format video playing' make the ipod touch redundant?Any more than the lack of OGG Vorbis and WMV support made the ipod redundant for playing music? Millions would disagree with you.

Stick with your mini by all means. And if it dies, than you could upgragde to the Nano. It's a little ugly but again form follows funcion. The navigation is the same, but more responsive, better battery life and a far more robust player at a considerably lower cost. Aside from aesthetics, what's not to like?

There is no dilution of core product focus in my book - you want a player that solely plays music and the ipod will still do exactly that for you. They've not added extra buttons, added fripperies or buried the music playing options in a sea of menus - it still plays music the same, using itunes as it always has


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2007)

I think the iPod - in all its incarnations -  is a superb piece of smart, slick, intelligent design. It's still way ahead of most of its rivals (if not all) in terms of looks and usability and has rightly won endless accolades for innovation.

Just thought I'd add that seeing as I'm always being accused of being a h8r.


But I still would never buy one.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 19, 2007)

I plugged my nano into a firewire charger instead of the usual USB2 and it stopped working this morning 

Thought that was it - was about to come on here cursing and find out about creative zens but thought I'd smack the thing around - so started hitting it on the desk and it started working again on the 4th smack. Weird as it's SSD not HD.


----------



## jæd (Oct 19, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> I plugged my nano into a firewire charger instead of the usual USB2 and it stopped working this morning
> 
> Thought that was it - was about to come on here cursing and find out about creative zens but thought I'd smack the thing around - so started hitting it on the desk and it started working again on the 4th smack. Weird as it's SSD not HD.



That should be fine..?   I still have my outlet charger from my original iPod, back when you got them in the box with the iPod rather having to buy them seperatly. Its right handy + charges my Touch ok... (All I got with the Touch was a USB cable and a bit of plastic to hold it up... Ggrrr...! My first iPod came with a full dock and a little Steve Jobs doll*  )

* Not really.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 19, 2007)

Yar, my firewire lead will charge newer ipods, from the power brick or from the computer. It's actually my favorite thing about my ageing ipod - doesn't take up a valuable USB socket!


----------



## Structaural (Oct 19, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> That should be fine..?   I still have my outlet charger from my original iPod, back when you got them in the box with the iPod rather having to buy them seperatly. Its right handy + charges my Touch ok...



Yeah I thought it would work - it was one of the ones that plugs straight into a power socket, it came up with the charging screen and then next time I looked at it the screen was blank. It might have been a coincidence.


----------



## paolo (Oct 20, 2007)

If you're one of those wondering what all the iphone fuss is about (and there's a few), there's another way to look at it - at least to understand the appeal to other people, if not to become a convert...

...for some people their iPod is their 'must-carry' device, the one they use more than anything else. Sure they have a phone, but that's just out of necessity. The music player is what they are wired into and using whenever they are on the move. It only takes a glance round the bus or tube in the morning to see this - many clearly being iPod folk, wearing the "mug me" earphones.

For these people, having a few extra menu options... Phone, Browser, Email... can you see how compelling that is? You are carrying around what you would have carried anyway, an iPod, but now you don't have to carry a phone. And the chances are you never even had a browser before. And also, the chances are, you hated your phones user interface, because the ipod showed how simple and elegant a device could be.

For people who like their iPods, there's very little not to like about the iPhone. Now there's just that one little thing. The price.


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> For these people, having a few extra menu options... Phone, Browser, Email... can you see how compelling that is? You are carrying around what you would have carried anyway, an iPod, but now you don't have to carry a phone. And the chances are you never even had a browser before. And also, the chances are, you hated your phones user interface, because the ipod showed how simple and elegant a device could be.


If only it had a SD card slot for transferring and viewing photos -  and for general memory expansion of course. It's a major omission IMO (along with all the other stuff it annoyingly can't do).


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 20, 2007)

Functionality-wise, I'd almost be happy with the iPhone.  I'm not even *that* fussed about it being closed to third party software development for the moment.  It's the price and lack of 3G that is stopping me from buying it.  No way would I pay £270 on top of an expensive O2 contract, when I know that Apple are making 40% or something stupid on the phone bills.

e2a lack of battery change too.  When I get a phone which I use a lot, I like to be able to get a spare battery/


----------



## paolo (Oct 20, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> If only it had a SD card slot for transferring and viewing photos -  and for general memory expansion of course. It's a major omission IMO (along with all the other stuff it annoyingly can't do).



You've hit on something a bit deeper than the lack of a slot.

It's a closed box. No filesystem access at all. You can't mount it as a disk on a computer, there is no file system viewer app in the phone. Same goes for the iPod Touch (unlike the previous iPods). Apple has locked it all up. You can get certain file types (e.g. music, photos) on via the 'gatekeeper', i.e. iTunes.

Many people won't notice alot of this - they can put their stuff on (via iTunes) and it'll work.

However anyone like yourself, used to 'open file system' functionality on their current phone, could well find the iPhone very limiting in that department.

_(It will be interesting to see what happens when the SDK ships. Apple will presumably have to give 3rd party apps some kind of filesystem access. And can they still realistically say everything has to be 'minded' by iTunes? Maybe there will be some kind of sandboxing... I can't quite picture how that will work though without it being annoying.)_


----------



## paolo (Oct 20, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> Functionality-wise, I'd almost be happy with the iPhone.  I'm not even *that* fussed about it being closed to third party software development for the moment.  It's the price and lack of 3G that is stopping me from buying it.  No way would I pay £270 on top of an expensive O2 contract, when I know that Apple are making 40% or something stupid on the phone bills.
> 
> e2a lack of battery change too.  When I get a phone which I use a lot, I like to be able to get a spare battery/



For browsing, aside from photo heavy stuff, EDGE works ok. It's as much about latency (maybe more so) rather than bandwidth, and 3G has no silver bullet for that problem.

I think a bigger frustration though for UK iPhone users could be O2's EDGE coverage. It seems to be almost invisible at present.


----------



## jæd (Oct 20, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> _(It will be interesting to see what happens when the SDK ships. Apple will presumably have to give 3rd party apps some kind of filesystem access. And can they still realistically say everything has to be 'minded' by iTunes? Maybe there will be some kind of sandboxing... I can't quite picture how that will work though without it being annoying.)_



It'll be interesting when/if a driver is developed that allows storage on the iPhone...

Interesting side point I've not seen anyone cover is that if you mount the Touch (and presumably the iPhone) it shows up as using a camera pic transfer protocol...

This is actually already possible using the iPhuc program, but its limited to Mac atm. Linux/Windows in theory but I (a) haven't seen a binary for those systems (b) seems to be heavily dependent on Intel OS X libs since the developer uses Intel OS X

Right at the moment I'm interested in the iPhone if Palm don't release a decent Treo in the next 6 months... A lot of what I'm thinking is based on the SDK and the freedom of developers (Any what precisely the control mechanism Apple will use...)


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 20, 2007)

why would o2 invest in edge for one phone, when othere networks are going over to 3g+ which is a lot faster?


----------



## untethered (Oct 20, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> The novelty features (e.g. video) haven't made it worse _music player_ though?



Every time you add something you take something away.


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 21, 2007)

Global_Stoner said:
			
		

> why would o2 invest in edge for one phone, when othere networks are going over to 3g+ which is a lot faster?



I'm still rather surprised at them down/upgrading their networks for edge.  Guess the cost of changing their network is less than the profit they're expecting.


----------



## fjydj (Oct 21, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> You've hit on something a bit deeper than the lack of a slot.
> 
> It's a closed box. No filesystem access at all. You can't mount it as a disk on a computer, there is no file system viewer app in the phone. Same goes for the iPod Touch (unlike the previous iPods). Apple has locked it all up. You can get certain file types (e.g. music, photos) on via the 'gatekeeper', i.e. iTunes.
> 
> ...




this isn't right, they've been hacked and you get full access to the files. I have cyberduck and with sftp can move files in and out of my touch. I've added the iphone apps and some games and there's more and more unofficial apps being created every day.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Oct 21, 2007)

fjydj said:
			
		

> this isn't right, they've been hacked and you get full access to the files. I have cyberduck and with sftp can move files in and out of my touch. I've added the iphone apps and some games and there's more and more unofficial apps being created every day.


They've been hacked and bricked. Woooot!


----------



## cjbowen.apple (Oct 21, 2007)

My friend hacked his, and he put a lot of new apps on it.
It was pretty cool, but the next day he came back, his iPhone was corrupted.
He sent it back to Apple, but they wouldn't replace it because he hacked it. >_<


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2007)

cjbowen.apple said:
			
		

> My friend hacked his, and he put a lot of new apps on it.
> It was pretty cool, but the next day he came back, his iPhone was corrupted.
> He sent it back to Apple, but they wouldn't replace it because he hacked it. >_<


----------



## jæd (Oct 21, 2007)

cjbowen.apple said:
			
		

> My friend hacked his, and he put a lot of new apps on it.
> It was pretty cool, but the next day he came back, his iPhone was corrupted.
> He sent it back to Apple, but they wouldn't replace it because he hacked it. >_<



Why not wait until at least Febuary and your "friend" could've done it with Apple's blessing...


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Why not wait until at least Febuary and your "friend" could've done it with Apple's blessing...


Yeah! What an idiot buying an expensive phone with a huge contract and then wanting to do something really stupid like install useful applications that work just fine on the device!


----------



## jæd (Oct 21, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Yeah! What an idiot buying an expensive phone with a huge contract and then wanting to do something really stupid like install useful applications that work just fine on the device!



Well... He either (a) do it now, but they won't be supported by Apple, or (b) wait until around Feb when they will.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 21, 2007)

in the next release of windows you won't be allowed to install any non ms software for three months....

can you imagine the blood spitting?


----------



## rocketman (Oct 22, 2007)

cjbowen.apple said:
			
		

> My friend hacked his, and he put a lot of new apps on it.
> It was pretty cool, but the next day he came back, his iPhone was corrupted.
> He sent it back to Apple, but they wouldn't replace it because he hacked it. >_<



Your friend should have done his research first. Installation of apps on iPhone iPod touch is possible, but you need to stay up-to-date on patches and so on, 

Here's a good article
iPod touch for business

Here's a good place to start
iJailbreak


----------



## Structaural (Oct 24, 2007)

Anyone see this letter from Macrovision Ceo Fred Amoroso to Steve Jobs (after Jobs had talked off getting rid of DRM)? Macrovision is the leading DRM coder.
It got dissected by John Gruber:

http://daringfireball.net/2007/02/macrovision_translation

'I would like to start by thanking Steve Jobs for offering his provocative perspective on the role of digital rights management (DRM) in the electronic content marketplace and for bringing to the forefront an issue of great importance to both the industry and consumers.'

Translation: Fuck you, Jobs.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 24, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Your friend should have done his research first. Installation of apps on iPhone iPod touch is possible, but you need to stay up-to-date on patches and so on,
> 
> Here's a good article
> iPod touch for business
> ...



Jailbreak was written by a 13 year old kid


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2007)

Herr Jobs has now dictated that poor people without credit cards _vill not be allowed_ to purchase an iPhone as he has declared that Apple will "no longer accept cash for iPhone purchases." 

It seems Obergruppenführer Jobs feels he should control what you do with your phone even after you've bought the thing, and doesn't want you selling your own goods on. Which you own. Which you've paid for. And even if you've got a credit card, you can only buy two phones. And if you've only got a gift card - you can forget it too!

Imagine the uproar if Microsoft made such an outrageous declaration?!

http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/27/...ash-for-iphone-limits-em-to-two-per/#comments


----------



## jæd (Oct 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Herr Jobs has now dictated that poor people without credit cards _vill not be allowed_ to purchase an iPhone as he has declared that Apple will "no longer accept cash for iPhone purchases."
> 
> It seems Obergruppenführer Jobs feels he should control what you do with your phone even after you've bought the thing, and doesn't want you selling your own goods on. Which you own. Which you've paid for. And even if you've got a credit card, you can only buy two phones. And if you've only got a gift card - you can forget it too!
> 
> ...



Well... Its an interesting development... Once could argue that since Apple's a hardware company, that this the equal of Microsoft's DRM for Xp + Vista... 

Its well targetted since most consumers have more than one credit card in the US, so it _will_ probably only hit resellers, or geeks who are just going to unlock the phone. And in the US you have to very, very poor not have credit-cards. Witness the rise (and hoo-ha) over pre-paid credit cards.

(But any geeks who are going to do that should probably just wait for the US unlocked version, or head to France)

Be interesting to watch and see if it comes here, although I'm surprised Amercians would suck this up...!


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Once could argue that since Apple's a hardware company, that this the equal of Microsoft's DRM for Xp + Vista...


No, it's not. It's not even remotely comparable.

It's specifically excluding anyone who hasn't got a credit card. In other words, Jobs wants to control _how you pay_ for his products and if you haven't got a credit card, you can fuck off.

Imagine the furore if Microsoft tried to impose such a restriction!


----------



## rocketman (Oct 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> No, it's not. It's not even remotely comparable.
> 
> It's specifically excluding anyone who hasn't got a credit card. In other words, Jobs wants to control _how you pay_ for his products and if you haven't got a credit card, you can fuck off.
> 
> Imagine the furore if Microsoft tried to impose such a restriction!



Can you get a mobile on a monthly charge if you don't have credit?


----------



## jæd (Oct 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> It's specifically excluding anyone who hasn't got a credit card. In other words, Jobs wants to control _how you pay_ for his products and if you haven't got a credit card, you can fuck off.



Which, as I pointed out, is very unlikely to happen in America...


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Can you get a mobile on a monthly charge if you don't have credit?


People were buying the iPhone with cash before so what's your point?

What do you think about the move?


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Which, as I pointed out, is very unlikely to happen in America...


Sorry, I don't understand what you're on about here. What is "very unlikely to happen in America"?


----------



## rocketman (Oct 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> People were buying the iPhone with cash before so what's your point?
> 
> What do you think about the move?



No it's not a point, it is a question.
You are such a defensive person.

What do I think about the move?
Doesn't mean a thing to me - they are obviously running low on handsets, which is good (for Apple).


----------



## jæd (Oct 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> It's specifically excluding anyone who hasn't got a credit card. In other words, Jobs wants to control how you pay for his products and if you haven't got a credit card, you can fuck off.



Being turned down because you don't have a credit card is unlikely since the amount of people who don't have credit cards there is very small.

(This is based on observations on the availability credit, etc, including pre-paid credit cards that even (big "scandal") illegal aliens could get hold of).

I'd add that people who can afford an iPhone (and afford to potentially brick it when they unlock it)  and don't have a credit card a very low.


----------



## jæd (Oct 27, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> No it's not a point, it is a question.
> You are such a defensive person.
> 
> What do I think about the move?
> Doesn't mean a thing to me - they are obviously running low on handsets, which is good (for Apple).



Yep... That's one interpretation. That and they want to increase market share...


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> No it's not a point, it is a question.
> You are such a defensive person.


Eh? Where the chuffin' heck have I been "defensive."?   What a bizarre thing to say.






			
				rocketman said:
			
		

> Doesn't mean a thing to me - they are obviously running low on handsets, which is good (for Apple).


Strange that you have absolutely no opinion on the matter though, because something tells me if it was Microsoft doing the same you have no shortage of things to say.

Oh well...


----------



## rocketman (Oct 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Strange that you have absolutely no opinion on the matter though, because something tells me if it was Microsoft doing the same you have no shortage of things to say.Oh well...



I don't think it's such an issue because:

1/ In the US you don't exist without a credit card. (NB: That doesn't mean I think the huge wealth inequality gap in the US is right, just that it reflects US culture).

2/ You need good credit to get onto a mobile network, so nixing cash deals should make no difference. This phone isn't sold pay-as-you go.

3/ iTunes activation - also requires a credit card (mainly). So even if you paid cash until now, you'll still hit a credit wall eventually.

So I don't think it is such a big deal. Then again, I don't believe exclusive mobile network provider deals will still be iPhone's path to market after this deal times out, and also believe it will be made available pay-as-you go at some point in future.

There'll be lots of unlocked iPhones sold in France, I suspect.


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> I don't think it's such an issue because:
> 
> 1/ In the US you don't exist without a credit card.


That very much depends on your race, colour and income, sadly.


----------



## jæd (Oct 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Strange that you have absolutely no opinion on the matter though, because something tells me if it was Microsoft doing the same you have no shortage of things to say.



Ok, I'll bite... If it was Microsoft doing this then good for them... It's their product and they can sell however they want to...!


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll bite... If it was Microsoft doing this then good for them... It's their product and they can sell however they want to...!


I don't believe that would have been your reaction, and I find it odd that you appear to fully support corporates forcing customers to use credit cards and thus exclude those who don't want/can't have a credit card.


----------



## jæd (Oct 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I don't believe that would have been your reaction, and I find it odd that you appear to fully support corporates forcing customers to use credit cards and thus exclude those who don't want/can't have a credit card.



Well... I'd be slightly against it if it was just for credit cards, as opposed to including debit cards. Deciding to take out credit should be for the individual...

Personally I don't like cash much*, so its not that much of an issue to me. And I think that if someone's buying Windows they probably have a credit/debit card...

* Though it comes in handy for certain purchases...


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Personally I don't like cash much*, so its not that much of an issue to me.


Oh well, if it'a alright for _you....

_



			
				jæd said:
			
		

> And I think that if someone's buying Windows they probably have a credit/debit card.


_What?!_


----------



## rocketman (Oct 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> That very much depends on your race, colour and income, sadly.



(NB: That doesn't mean I think the huge wealth inequality gap in the US is right, just that it reflects US culture).


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

And it doesn’t stop there - now Jobsie boy is saying that if someone bought you an Apple Gift Card with their credit card, you still won’t be able to get an iPhone!

A user commment from Engadget:



> CUPERTINO - Apple announced today that it would no longer be accepting purchase requests for the iPhone. "We feel the iPhone is too good for regular humans," says the Apple spokesperson. "To protect our brand image, we have decided to stop selling our product altogether to maintain a level of exclusivity unattainable by any other product currently on the market."
> 
> The spokesperson also announced they would continue advertising in order to maintain the feel of unattainability.


----------



## Pie 1 (Oct 29, 2007)

re - only paying with a card.
Just a thought, but I'd be interested to know the specifics of whether or not an actual real shop (Regent St or 5th Ave. for example), is actually allowed to refuse legal tender for goods.
I know they can refuse to sell you stuff on other grounds, but can they actually refuse cash if it's good?

E2A:
Just remembered my conversation in Regent St. a couple of weeks ago when paying for a £29 cash for a new keyboard:

Apple Bunny: "£29 please"
Me <hand over notes>
AB: "can I have your name & address please?"
Me "No"
AB " I need it to issue you a receipt"
Me "no you don't"
AB " It's because you didn't pay with a debit card, you're reciept could be used by anyone"
Me " sorry, what on earth are you talking about? Can you just give me my bloody reciept & change please, I need to be somewhere else"
AB "err yes, sorry, here you go"


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> I know they can refuse to sell you stuff on other grounds, but can they actually refuse cash if it's good?


Under US law, a seller is under no obligation to sell you anything, whatever the payment method. I imagine it's the same here.


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

Blimey!

Survey: only 1% want iPhone



> People know all about the Apple iPhone, but they are not prepared to pay £269.99 for it, according to a survey by YouGov.
> 
> Twenty five percent of respondents expressed 'a high likelihood' of buying the handset after they were shown a list of its features. But this fell to 1% when they were told that the handset would cost £269 and the minimum monthly contract would be £35.


----------



## rocketman (Oct 29, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Oh well, if it'a alright for _you....
> 
> __What?!_



Obergrupenfuhrer ed has spoken.


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Obergrupenfuhrer ed has spoken.


Err.. _what?!


_


----------



## moose (Oct 29, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> re - only paying with a card.
> Just a thought, but I'd be interested to know the specifics of whether or not an actual real shop (Regent St or 5th Ave. for example), is actually allowed to refuse legal tender for goods.


Most petrol stations, and many supermarkets, won't accept cheques.


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

moose said:
			
		

> Most petrol stations, and many supermarkets, won't accept cheques.


Sure. But_ cash?!_


----------



## moose (Oct 29, 2007)

Dunno - do people still use cash, apart from for beer and on turnstiles at football?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 29, 2007)

whilst its only available on contract, why is this a problem?


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

moose said:
			
		

> Dunno - do people still use cash, apart from for beer and on turnstiles at football?


Some people can't get credit cards, while some just don't want to use them.


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

Global_Stoner said:
			
		

> whilst its only available on contract, why is this a problem?


You don't think there's anything slighty iffy about a corporate dictating that its customers must buy their consumer goods with credit cards and nothing else?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 29, 2007)

Man, rarely has an interesting thread dovetailed into such technical levels of tedium...


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Man, rarely has an interesting dovetailed into such technical levels of tedium...


That doesn't even make sense.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 29, 2007)

Oops! Missed out a word, edited.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 29, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Man, rarely has an interesting thread dovetailed into such technical levels of tedium...


It's an apple thread. The chances were always high.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 29, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> It's an apple thread. The chances were always high.



Heh fair point.


----------



## paolo (Oct 29, 2007)

A big part of iPhone revenue, for Apple, is the kickback from the telco. Although the apparent price is $399 (£279 here), the actual price is estimated at around $800 after you factor in the kickback.

However, 250,000 of the 1.4m iPhones sold far have not gone into contract... i.e. they are either being used unlocked, or are sitting in the (grey) supply chain.

So to protect the revenue, Apple are now trying dissuade purchases for resale - by limiting quantity per buyer and implementing a way of tracking where the sales go. The cash sale thing actually means: "No untraceable sale". Debit cards fine, for example, but Apple Gift Vouchers not accepted.

There is - it seems - one loophole. The newly available cash-chargeable credit cards. Get one, load it with cash, buy your iPhone(s). Assuming this works as some people claim, it's not only a way of circumventing Apple's beady eye, but also anyone else's who you don't fancy but have to use plastic to do the deal.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 30, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> re - only paying with a card.
> Just a thought, but I'd be interested to know the specifics of whether or not an actual real shop (Regent St or 5th Ave. for example), is actually allowed to refuse legal tender for goods.
> I know they can refuse to sell you stuff on other grounds, but can they actually refuse cash if it's good?
> 
> ...



fucken 'ell  , make sure you sell that receipt on ebay. What a dick.


----------



## paolo (Nov 2, 2007)

For those that are considering getting an iPhone...

O2 have cleared up the fuss around the 'unlimited' '200Mb.month' data. The fair use policy has been published: No set limit, just no tethering/streaming*/p2p - none of these things you can do with a stock iPhone anyway.

Arguably the real constraint will be lack of Edge availability.

And if you don't already know: The iPhone goes on sale next Friday, 6pm. Apple, O2 & Carphone Warehouse shops will be opening late. The latter have said they 'expect' to sell 10,000 that evening. 

I'll be getting one on the way home from work, but most definitely not joining in the fanboy wankfest at the Regents Street Apple store.  

[* e2a: Obviously the You Tube app doesn't count against the policy]


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> I'll be getting one on the way home from work, but most definitely not joining in the fanboy wankfest at the Regents Street Apple store.


Oh come on! That's not the spirit!

Surely you can provide some fanboy footage for the hardcore Mac community and leave the store screaming like an over-excited schoolgirl and waving your precious iiPhone about?

I'm sure there'll be a few pitifully real sad fucks hanging about to clap and cheer your 'achievement' like in the US launch. Think of the fame!


----------



## paolo (Nov 2, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Oh come on! That's not the spirit!
> 
> Surely you can provide some fanboy footage for the hardcore Mac community and leave the store screaming like an over-excited schoolgirl and waving your precious iiPhone about?
> 
> I'm sure there'll be a few pitifully real sad fucks hanging about to clap and cheer your 'achievement' like in the US launch. Think of the fame!





Over on the macrumors forums, there's a thread just to discuss what shop you are going to etc. There's a fair few of them taking their laptops (Mac of course, what else?) so they can do the iPhone enablement on the spot. God help any of them that turns up _without_ Leopard installed... oh the embarassment 

But, digressing a little, the story I really liked was a guy in the US who used one of the macs in an Apple Store to hack the phone he'd just bought. Firewire cable running through his jacket and out of the sleeve... phone hacked and unlocked before he'd left the shop... class


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> But, digressing a little, the story I really liked was a guy in the US who used one of the macs in an Apple Store to hack the phone he'd just bought. Firewire cable running through his jacket and out of the sleeve... phone hacked and unlocked before he'd left the shop... class


Now, he has got style.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 2, 2007)

cant belive they havnt made it 3g for the uk market.


----------



## paolo (Nov 2, 2007)

Global_Stoner said:
			
		

> cant belive they havnt made it 3g for the uk market.



That would have been nice, but we'll have to wait a bit for that. Jobs said that they had discounted 3G due to power issues (and indeed, many 3G phone users do have issues with battery life - e.g. N95).

It may all change sometime next year though - Broadcom have announced a low power 3G chip.


----------



## jæd (Nov 3, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Over on the macrumors forums, there's a thread just to discuss what shop you are going to etc. There's a fair few of them taking their laptops (Mac of course, what else?) so they can do the iPhone enablement on the spot. God help any of them that turns up _without_ Leopard installed... oh the embarassment



I once bumped into fan-boys waiting outside the UK Apple Store who where lining up on a Friday night in _November_ for some kind of launch the next day... No-way could I join them with their "Look, I'm on my iSight webcam, using my iBook right outside the Store, and its freezing... OMG...! LOL...!" fan-boy-ism...


----------



## editor (Nov 3, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> I once bumped into fan-boys waiting outside the UK Apple Store who where lining up on a Friday night in _November_ for some kind of launch the next day... No-way could I join them with their "Look, I'm on my iSight webcam, using my iBook right outside the Store, and its freezing... OMG...! LOL...!" fan-boy-ism...


I really can't think of any piece of technology that I'd be prepared to camp outside a store for, or any electronic gadget that I'd wave triumphantly about in the air after I'd bought it.

You've got to be a right sad fuck to act like that.


----------



## jæd (Nov 3, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I really can't think of any piece of technology that I'd be prepared to camp outside a store for, or any electronic gadget that I'd wave triumphantly about in the air after I'd bought it.
> 
> You've got to be a right sad fuck to act like that.



That was the point I was trying to make to them (I was a little pissed). Their reply was that "It's the experience, man".

(a) You're in the middle of town, on a Friday night. There's a lot better "experiences" you can have than spending some money on a gadget thats probably going to be coming out half-baked and discounted a month later.
(b) You're in the middle of town flashing around expensive laptops. That's going to be an experience come 5.30am.


----------



## paolo (Nov 3, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I really can't think of any piece of technology that I'd be prepared to camp outside a store for, or any electronic gadget that I'd wave triumphantly about in the air after I'd bought it.
> 
> You've got to be a right sad fuck to act like that.



I felt much the same with all the the Halo coverage. Film Premiere style rollout? WTF?

But I do remember being 14 or so, and HAVING to be the first in line for the ZX Spectrum. Me and my mate ordered at the same time. He got serial #101 (precisely), but my order was fucked up for ages. It ended up being 33,000 odd... I was gutted.

So maybe there's an age factor with the "fan" thing... same happens with bands.


----------



## capslock (Nov 3, 2007)

the apple eye phomn67e is completely crap


----------



## jæd (Nov 5, 2007)

The UK iPhone will launch with the 1.1.2 firmware... See http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/11/05/uk.iphone.to.have.112/ . Looks like they're spotted the latest exploit, expect much wailing from the fan-boys-apple-haterz...


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> So maybe there's an age factor with the "fan" thing... same happens with bands.


The pathetic fan boys filmed whooping and a-hollerin' at the US iPhone launch were waaay over 14 yrs old. 

Mind you, they've got a way to go before they match this guy.


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> The UK iPhone will launch with the 1.1.2 firmware... See http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/11/05/uk.iphone.to.have.112/ . Looks like they're spotted the latest exploit, expect much wailing from the fan-boys-apple-haterz...


Surely it won't be the 'haterz' doing the wailing, but the fan boys if they discover they can't add any useful third party apps?


----------



## jæd (Nov 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Surely it won't be the 'haterz' doing the wailing, but the fan boys if they discover they can't add any useful third party apps?



They can wait 3 months, surely...


----------



## Structaural (Nov 5, 2007)

old lady pwns cunt in Applestore:

http://www.burbia.com/node1470.htm


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> They can wait 3 months, surely...


Oh yes. I bet you'd love to buy a high end expensive phone and then wait around for three months before the useful apps that should have been there in the first place  _start_ appearing, eh?


----------



## jæd (Nov 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Oh yes. I bet you'd love to buy a high end expensive phone and then wait around for three months before the useful apps that should have been there in the first place  _start_ appearing, eh?



I'd be doing my research beforehand and finding out what was included, what wasn't, and what was possible before buying... Its what I did before getting my Treo... I'd be expecting anyone to do the same before buying an expensive phone...


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 5, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> old lady pwns cunt in Applestore:
> 
> http://www.burbia.com/node1470.htm



 i kind of feel sorry for the guy working there....  he's just a normal person who got a bit arsey due to stress

fuck the people who think he should be a servile minion of apple just there to provide a faceless smile


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> I'd be doing my research beforehand and finding out what was included, what wasn't, and what was possible before buying... Its what I did before getting my Treo... I'd be expecting anyone to do the same before buying an expensive phone...


I suspect quite a few iPhone buyers won't be quite as fastidious in their research as you before buying.


----------



## jæd (Nov 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I suspect quite a few iPhone buyers won't be quite as fastidious in their research as you before buying.



Then they can either return it or wait until Febuary...


----------



## pinkmonkey (Nov 5, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> I felt much the same with all the the Halo coverage. Film Premiere style rollout? WTF?
> 
> But I do remember being 14 or so, and HAVING to be the first in line for the ZX Spectrum. Me and my mate ordered at the same time. He got serial #101 (precisely), but my order was fucked up for ages. It ended up being 33,000 odd... I was gutted.
> 
> So maybe there's an age factor with the "fan" thing... same happens with bands.



I caught a bus past the Apple store last week  There was a huuge queue outside, going right round the corner into the square behind.  Most of the people in the queue had iPod headphones on <I'd be so embarrassed I'd swop 'em for black ones, TBH>.  Didn't see any 14 year olds.

A marketing mans dream, they were.  Yup I've been in ridiculously long queues, to buy something before too, but only at sample sales for bargain clothes - were they about to get a bargain, I wonder


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Then they can either return it or wait until Febuary...


You seem to be labouring under the misguided notion that there's going to be a flood of third party applications available in February.

Not so sure they'd get much joy asking for a refund either.


----------



## jæd (Nov 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You seem to be labouring under the misguided notion that there's going to be a flood of third party applications available in February.



Well... It all depend on what's in the SDK. If it allows third-party developers to run apps on the iPhone, then, based on the speed that un-official apps appeared, I'd expect apps to appear quite quickly.

Of course, it could be for "approved" 3rd-party developers only (as is hinted), a bit like the iPod. In that case you would get less apps, but I'm still thinking it would be the same type of time-scale. Apparently there's no much difference between OS X Desktop and OS X Mobile...

But, hey, lets wait until Feb and see what happens...? 




			
				editor said:
			
		

> Not so sure they'd get much joy asking for a refund either.



Apple not covered by consumer protection laws, then...?


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Well... It all depend on what's in the SDK. If it allows third-party developers to run apps on the iPhone, then, based on the speed that un-official apps appeared, I'd expect apps to appear quite quickly.


Err, the reason that unofficial apps appeared so quickly was because they could be written any ol' how and didn't have to be approved by Herr Jobs & Co.


----------



## jæd (Nov 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Err, the reason that unofficial apps appeared so quickly was because they could be written any ol' how and didn't have to be approved by Herr Jobs & Co.



That will be one bottle-neck, although it will be depend on the approval process. I'm guessing the first apps available would be from "blessed" developers, probably from Google, MS, etc...


----------



## jæd (Nov 5, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Err, the reason that unofficial apps appeared so quickly was because they could be written any ol' how and didn't have to be approved by Herr Jobs & Co.



That, and the very similar o/s...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 6, 2007)

It's out this Friday, woohoo or something...


----------



## Structaural (Nov 6, 2007)

Teenagers banned though...

http://macenstein.com/default/archives/871#comments


----------



## Gromit (Nov 6, 2007)

Article on the beeb says don't bother buying an iPhone in Wales as O2's network coverage is pants. In fact if you leave any major city your phone is practically useless as a phone or web browser.

Also mentioned again that it doesn't have 3G so you might as well be back in the 80s browsing on your 486 with a 56k modem.

So all this wonderful hardware and no real ability to access speeds capeable of using it properly on the hoof. Nice one apple.


----------



## paolo (Nov 6, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Article on the beeb says don't bother buying an iPhone in Wales as O2's network coverage is pants. In fact if you leave any major city your phone is practically useless as a phone or web browser.
> 
> Also mentioned again that it doesn't have 3G so you might as well be back in the 80s browsing on your 486 with a 56k modem.
> 
> So all this wonderful hardware and no real ability to access speeds capeable of using it properly on the hoof. Nice one apple.



Can't find the article - do you have a link? Cheers.


----------



## paolo (Nov 6, 2007)

pinkmonkey said:
			
		

> I caught a bus past the Apple store last week  There was a huuge queue outside, going right round the corner into the square behind.  Most of the people in the queue had iPod headphones on <I'd be so embarrassed I'd swop 'em for black ones, TBH>.  Didn't see any 14 year olds.
> 
> A marketing mans dream, they were.  Yup I've been in ridiculously long queues, to buy something before too, but only at sample sales for bargain clothes - were they about to get a bargain, I wonder



That will have been the launch of Leopard, the new version of the OS. It's not a wholesale major upgrade but seems to have been well received, unlike Vista.

In the US at least, there's alot of 'switcher' sales going on right now - people buying Macs who were Windows users. I'm considering it myself.  (although I'd have to keep at least one Windows machine at home because some coding stuff I want to do isn't possible on a Mac. So maybe I wouldn't be a 'real' switcher as such.)


----------



## pinkmonkey (Nov 6, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Article on the beeb says don't bother buying an iPhone in Wales as O2's network coverage is pants. In fact if you leave any major city your phone is practically useless as a phone or web browser.
> 
> Also mentioned again that it doesn't have 3G so you might as well be back in the 80s browsing on your 486 with a 56k modem.
> 
> So all this wonderful hardware and no real ability to access speeds capeable of using it properly on the hoof. Nice one apple.



Isn't that because the mobile networks in the US just aren't set up for proper 3G with proper coverage yet?  They do seem to be a year or two behind Europe, from my experience, when I've been over there.

I'm just about to upgrade my USB datacard to a new 7.2mbs one, so yes, it does seem bloody slow.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Nov 6, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> That will have been the launch of Leopard, the new version of the OS. It's not a wholesale major upgrade but seems to have been well received, unlike Vista.
> 
> In the US at least, there's alot of 'switcher' sales going on right now - people buying Macs who were Windows users. I'm considering it myself.  (although I'd have to keep at least one Windows machine at home because some coding stuff I want to do isn't possible on a Mac. So maybe I wouldn't be a 'real' switcher as such.)



That's so sad, queuing for an OS.     <--- embarrassement for geeks in queue.

If I spray myself white would they queue round the block for me?  



<probably not>


----------



## paolo (Nov 6, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> It's out this Friday, woohoo or something...



Wooho definitely for the great UI, iPod built in.  

Maybe maybe not woohoo for the browsing (EDGE is slowly lighting up on O2, but it's still _very_ patchy.)  

Definitely not woohoo on the price of thing. 

I'm still looking forward to it, but the EDGE thing is a worry for me... the main place for my browsing is out of town.

Still: 14 days cooling off period by law, so I'll have those 2 weeks to put it through it's paces.


----------



## editor (Nov 6, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> I'm still looking forward to it, but the EDGE thing is a worry for me... the main place for my browsing is out of town.


You're mad limiting yourself to o2 if out of town coverage is important to you - their EDGE coverage is very poor.

Surely your decision to buy a phone should be based on your needs, the user interface, the apps and what the phone can deliver in terms of technology rather than just going for an "oooo! pretty!" gadget?

And 18 months sure is a long time to be tied to a network with bad coverage - especially when you're paying waaaaay over the odds...


----------



## Crispy (Nov 6, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> I'm considering it myself.  (although I'd have to keep at least one Windows machine at home because some coding stuff I want to do isn't possible on a Mac. So maybe I wouldn't be a 'real' switcher as such.)



you know all new macs can run windows now?
and with Parallels (virtualistation software), you don't even need to restart.


----------



## paolo (Nov 7, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You're mad limiting yourself to o2 if out of town coverage is important to you - their EDGE coverage is very poor.
> 
> Surely your decision to buy a phone should be based on your needs, the user interface, the apps and what the phone can deliver in terms of technology rather than just going for an "oooo! pretty!" gadget?
> 
> And 18 months sure is a long time to be tied to a network with bad coverage - especially when you're paying waaaaay over the odds...



As I say I'll give it a try. EDGE (lack of) might be it's downfall.

I'll report back here soon.


----------



## paolo (Nov 7, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> you know all new macs can run windows now?
> and with Parallels (virtualistation software), you don't even need to restart.



Sounds interesting - Although to be honest, for me, I'd just keep my old kit running in parallel for the time being.... make one of them a server, and another a client for coding stuff.

But good to know the intel macs have gone beyond the reboot-bodge thing.


----------



## paolo (Nov 7, 2007)

Actually, I've just realised I've been "double modded" here.

What is this?

Good Mod / Bad Mod?


----------



## editor (Nov 7, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Actually, I've just realised I've been "double modded" here.
> 
> What is this?
> 
> Good Mod / Bad Mod?


It means that whatever you do, one of us won't like it.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 7, 2007)

Would you like a cigarette? I'm here to help.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 7, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You're mad limiting yourself to o2 if out of town coverage is important to you - their EDGE coverage is very poor.
> 
> Surely your decision to buy a phone should be based on your needs, the user interface, the apps and what the phone can deliver in terms of technology rather than just going for an "oooo! pretty!" gadget?
> 
> And 18 months sure is a long time to be tied to a network with bad coverage - especially when you're paying waaaaay over the odds...


Aye you're fuckin right,the cost of the phone too, never mind the contract.

No chance.


----------



## dogmatique (Nov 7, 2007)

Remember my (much) earlier post when the boss asked me if he could have one and I said "umm, it's your company, surely you can have whatever you want (as long as I can have one)" and he said yes?

Well, for some strange reason o2 always holds off new handset releases for business customers until sometime after consumer release (the N95 wasn't supposed to be available for yonks, but then they relented and released it almost simultaniously).

I knew this, and was expecting the iphone to be released for business customers by the end of Nov.

Today I learn - prompted by boss to find out - that it won't be available to buisness customers until *mid 2008*.  

Where's the logic in that?  Business customers pay shitloads for their tariffs and should be valued customers.

Rubbish.  New one'll be out by then.  Pff.

Having said that though, the bossman had instantly assumed that it would replace his Blackberry.  I had to carefully explain that it has *no* support for Exchange based push email a la Blackberry and is only really a consumer phone at the moment, and that porting his phone number over to a consumer tariff without email would be stoopid.

Bang goes my first week iPhone.  

Gah.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 7, 2007)

The edge coverage will be entirely down to the software in the cells base station if the Inquirer is to be believed, and O2 have been installing it, so it might well be better now than people imagine.

I like my iPod mini and have no desire for it to do more than it does already.  I'm not enamoured by the move to 18 month contracts so will be buying a Sony Ericsson off ebay when I can be arsed.


----------



## paolo (Nov 8, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> The edge coverage will be entirely down to the software in the cells base station if the Inquirer is to be believed, and O2 have been installing it, so it might well be better now than people imagine.



Yep, Edge is a software upgrade. I think there's an hour or so downtime per cell. If the leaked plan I saw has been implemented, they should have done nearly 3000 cells by now. (The biiig problem with mobile browsing is latency, and that affects all the systems, including the 'god like' 3G... but that's another story).




			
				Sunray said:
			
		

> I'm not enamoured by the move to 18 month contracts so will be buying a Sony Ericsson off ebay when I can be arsed.



There's alot of sense in that - you'll have seen my other posts about this. iPhone aside, SIM Only is the way to go I think*. As an excercise I did a price comparison the other day... N95 paid for out of 18 month contract, vs. SIM only and buy the phone elsewhere. The effective cost of the N95 was certainly cheaper on the 18 month deal (about £200), but... a lock in situation, and 18 months is a long time.

Similarly I did the maths on the buying a French (unlocked) iPhone, at an 'assumed' price. It's _probably_ better for me to go with O2 lock in, but that's only because I'm already on O2, and I can get out of my current (mediocre value) contract on the basis that I'll take the iPhone. People on contracts with other providers, with no escape route, would probably better buying the unlocked one and carrying on with their current provider (edge issues aside), and selling their existing phone.

Out of interest, have you had a play with the iPod touch?


----------



## editor (Nov 8, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> There's alot of sense in that - you'll have seen my other posts about this. iPhone aside, SIM Only is the way to go I think*. As an excercise I did a price comparison the other day... N95 paid for out of 18 month contract, vs. SIM only and buy the phone elsewhere. The effective cost of the N95 was certainly cheaper on the 18 month deal (about £200), but... a lock in situation, and 18 months is a long time.


You can get the N95 free on tons of UK contracts, some only 12 months long or buy it unlocked for around £365.

http://www.bestcontractmobilephone.co.uk/Phone_Deal.asp?Ph=Nokia--N95


----------



## paolo (Nov 8, 2007)

Yes exactly. So to work out how much a 'free' phone costs, you compare the overall contract cost with the equivalent sim only deal. On O2 the difference is between 200 and 400 pounds over 18 months, depending on 'size' of tariff. The mid range tariffs offer the best price for the 'free' phone. Low or high end tariffs are much poorer value.


----------



## editor (Nov 8, 2007)

Orange do a free N95 at £30/month on a year's contract with the first four months free. So that's just £240. You can get even cheaper deals on 18 month contracts, so the iPhone looks massively pricy in comparison.


----------



## Gromit (Nov 8, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Can't find the article - do you have a link? Cheers.


 
Er sorry it was an ICWales story not the beeb.

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/wales-news/2007/11/06/iphone-will-not-work-across-whole-of-wales-91466-20066210/


----------



## Gromit (Nov 8, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Orange do a free N95 at £30/month on a year's contract with the first four months free. So that's just £240. You can get even cheaper deals on 18 month contracts, so the iPhone looks massively pricy in comparison.


 
Thats tempting. I really fancy replacing my 1st gen Razr but i'm finding it hard to justify buying a new phone. My current one works fine and a £20 top up lasts me 2-3 months. 

If I bought a new phone I'm caving into gadget lust aren't I?!


----------



## jæd (Nov 8, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> If I bought a new phone I'm caving into gadget lust aren't I?!



And what's wrong with that...?


----------



## editor (Nov 8, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Thats tempting. I really fancy replacing my 1st gen Razr but i'm finding it hard to justify buying a new phone. My current one works fine and a £20 top up lasts me 2-3 months.


I'm still using my Treo which is getting on for 2 years old - which makes it the longest I've ever stuck with the same phone.

I've even been _given_ two newer, higher spec'd phones and still stuck with the Palm.


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Nov 8, 2007)

Im going to get an iPod touch (at some point when i hae the cash) 

I'm a bit dissapointed theres no Flash support for the safari on th iphone/touch


----------



## paolo (Nov 8, 2007)

Flash will need to be implemented by adobe, but their hands are tied to am extent by the delay for the dev kit


----------



## paolo (Nov 8, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> back in the 80s browsing



WHAT!?! You mean there will be NO WEBSITES WHATSOVER ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD with an iPhone?


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 8, 2007)

I adore the browser on the ipod touch.  It really is intuitive.  I'm tempted by the iphone for that reason, but if edge is as shit as I think it will be, I'll still have to pass.


----------



## paolo (Nov 8, 2007)

Thats definitely the sketchy bit. Im going to do some benchmarks over the weekend to see how well/badly it performs.


----------



## dogmatique (Nov 9, 2007)

I had to step past a small, motley crew of fanboys tonight on Regent Street, who'd been provided with Apple umbrellas and directors chairs whilst they waited all night for their expensive jesusphone.  

Looked a bit stunt-ish to be honest.  Will let you know what it's like on the way home tomorrow.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> I had to step past a small, motley crew of fanboys tonight on Regent Street, who'd been provided with Apple umbrellas and directors chairs whilst they waited all night for their expensive jesusphone.


Sad, sad, pathetic fuckers.


----------



## paolo (Nov 9, 2007)

And they will have to wait all day too. It doesnt go on sale until 6pm!


----------



## jæd (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Sad, sad, pathetic fuckers.



Isn't "Sad, sad, pathetic wankers" more accurate...? Otherwise you're suggesting they've had intimate relations with more than their MacBook...  

(But hey, lets not belittle them. Who else would try out a 1.0 release from Apple on day # 1)


----------



## jugularvein (Nov 9, 2007)

why the fuck does apple think they can spam me with news about the release of their iphone?! i guess they have my email cos i used itunes once upon a time... but i don't give a shit about their bloody phone.
i thought companies like apple and microsoft were trying to combat spam...


----------



## Crispy (Nov 9, 2007)

At the bottom of the email is a line that reads:

If you prefer not to receive commercial email from Apple, or if you've changed your email address, please click here.

Click there. I did, and haven't had an email from them since.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 9, 2007)

Guy from Apple on FiveLive this morning doing quite a nice defence of the iPhone's browsing capabilities.  Said EDGE was enough for email and the odd map. With O2 you get all the Wifi access in the Cloud network, which obviously makes it the fastest phone of them all for browsing.

I would like to have a go at it, just to see if it grabs me.  Will wait for a bit then head to the Carphone warehouse for a try.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> With O2 you get all the Wifi access in the Cloud network, which obviously makes it the fastest phone of them all for browsing.


Why's it faster than any otjher Wi-Fi enablerd phone? 



			
				Sunray said:
			
		

> I would like to have a go at it, just to see if it grabs me.


Not sure if I'd be prepared to spend £800+ quid and commit to a 18 month contract foe an admittedly stylish phone that can't even send out a SMS to more than one person at a time! Or take a video. Or send a MMS. Or cut'n'paste. etc etc


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> I would like to have a go at it, just to see if it grabs me


I've had a go on one and all I could say was "meh".  It's a snazzy interface on a quite amazingly average phone (and an average phone with some staggering omissions), nothing more.

But then I'm the sort of person that turns off anything fancy in pretty much every gadget/OS I use (when I use vista I make it look as much like xp/2K as possible for example, I can't stand all that aero glass bollocks).  I'm not interested in how something looks at all really, I just want it to do a job.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

Made of pure, 100% fail:


----------



## TopCat (Nov 9, 2007)

A triumph of marketing over substance.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Made of pure, 100% fail:




Do you think they are hoping for a free phone like that PS3 promotion?


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Why's it faster than any otjher Wi-Fi enablerd phone?
> Not sure if I'd be prepared to spend £800+ quid and commit to a 18 month contract foe an admittedly stylish phone that can't even send out a SMS to more than one person at a time! Or take a video. Or send a MMS. Or cut'n'paste. etc etc



No multiple SMS???? Fucking hell it really is made of fail


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

No MMS either, so you can use the camera to take a pic, and then, errrr, not send it to anyone  

It's shite.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 9, 2007)

It's shit alright, so it will become a massive hit? Like the ipod and apple computers?


----------



## Crispy (Nov 9, 2007)

*Starts typing heated reply*

*Gives up, clobbers topcat with pool ball in a sock instead*


----------



## jæd (Nov 9, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> No MMS either, so you can use the camera to take a pic, and then, errrr, not send it to anyone
> 
> It's shite.



You can always email it...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> You can always email it...


Yeah, coz _everyone_ can pickup email on their phone


----------



## Crispy (Nov 9, 2007)

Not to a picture phone you can't.


----------



## paolo (Nov 9, 2007)

The mms complaint (common on the mac forums too) caught me by suprise. I have never sent any and i have only ever received one.

Does anyone here use mms? Is it expensive?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> The mms complaint (common on the mac forums too) caught me by suprise. I have never sent any and i have only ever received one.
> 
> Does anyone here use mms? Is it expensive?


I use it all the time, dunno about cost coz I'm on flex-t with t-mobile, so they are just absorbed into my monthly allowance.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

The inability to cut 'n' paste is what really confused me though, why on earth would such a fundamental feature not be implimented?


----------



## Sunray (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Why's it faster than any otjher Wi-Fi enablerd phone?
> Not sure if I'd be prepared to spend £800+ quid and commit to a 18 month contract foe an admittedly stylish phone that can't even send out a SMS to more than one person at a time! Or take a video. Or send a MMS. Or cut'n'paste. etc etc



The browsers on every other phone I've ever used is shit and slow and pretty much a waste of time.  

There is one thing you forget, Apple has been quite open to suggestion to their iPod for fixing issues and new features.  The pod cast wasn't their idea, yet it got included into their software and iTunes. 

Just because it can't do it now does not mean that it will not be able to do these things in the future.  Apples track record pretty much tells me that you will soon be able to do most if not all of the things you suggest.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 9, 2007)

I use mms a few times a month I guess.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 9, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> The inability to cut 'n' paste is what really confused me though, why on earth would such a fundamental feature not be implimented?



I can guarantee that its a time issue.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> Just because it can't do it now does not mean that it will not be able to do these things in the future.  Apples track record pretty much tells me that you will soon be able to do most of all the things you suggest.


Sure. But it's been out five months already and none of the above have been fixed yet. I'm not sure it'll ever be able to do video either. 

Have you ever bought a phone in the uncertain hope that basic essential functions might appear later? I haven't.


----------



## jæd (Nov 9, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> There is one thing you forget, Apple has been quite open to suggestion to their iPod for fixing issues and new features.  The pod cast wasn't their idea, yet it got included into their software and iTunes.
> 
> Just because it can't do it now does not mean that it will not be able to do these things in the future.  Apples track record pretty much tells me that you will soon be able to do most if not all of the things you suggest.



To illustrate Sunray's point:

The 1.1.2 Touch firmware now allows entries to be added to the Calendar.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> I can guarantee that its a time issue.


 

What do you mean by this?


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> The 1.1.2 Touch firmware now allows entries to be added to the Calendar.


Wow! Five months in and you can actually _add an entry to the calendar?_

Revolutionary!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> The browsers on every other phone I've ever used is shit and slow and pretty much a waste of time.


The one in my Vario II (IE) works fine.




> Just because it can't do it now does not mean that it will not be able to do these things in the future.  Apples track record pretty much tells me that you will soon be able to do most if not all of the things you suggest.


Fuck that, I'm not buying anything that _might_ do what I want it to at some unspecified future date, that's bonkers.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> Fuck that, I'm not buying anything that _might_ do what I want it to at some unspecified future date, that's bonkers.


Yeah, but c'mon man - you can now actually _add an event to the calendar! _

It may have taken five long months of waiting to be able to accomplish this technically advanced act, but how cool is that?

You can add something. To your calendar. On your phone. 

Now that's thinking differently alright!


----------



## dogmatique (Nov 9, 2007)

All of the absurd ommissions - not being able to send texts to multiple recipients, cut and paste etc have been noted from day one and could easily have been fixed with the first firmware update, and yet still haven't.

I find there's a certain arrogance from Apple where they'll decide to take their own good time to fix something that consumers are asking for.

It took well over a year for the simple task of gapless playback on the ipod to be resolved...


----------



## paolo (Nov 9, 2007)

The touch is an ipod though. Not sold as an organiser.


----------



## jæd (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Wow! Five months in and you can actually _add an entry to the calendar?_
> 
> Revolutionary!



It shows that Apple are actively developing for the Ipod/Touch. Dunno about you but I've never seen a manufacturer regularly update a phones firmware with the frequency Apple has...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> All of the absurd ommissions - not being able to send texts to multiple recipients, cut and paste etc have been noted from day one and could easily have been fixed with the first firmware update, and yet still haven't.


But these are the basic thigns that should have been noted at the very first product design meeting, surely?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> It shows that Apple are actively developing for the Ipod/Touch. Dunno about you but I've never seen a manufacturer regularly update a phones firmware with the frequency Apple has...


I've not seen a phone so comprehensivly lacking in basic features either.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> It shows that Apple are actively developing for the Ipod/Touch. Dunno about you but I've never seen a manufacturer regularly update a phones firmware with the frequency Apple has...


I've never seen a manufacturer release a phone so devoid of basic features as Apple.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

Great minds ed


----------



## jæd (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Yeah, but c'mon man - you can now actually _add an event to the calendar! _
> 
> It may have taken five long months of waiting to be able to accomplish this technically advanced act, but how cool is that?
> 
> ...



The iPhone has had this capability for a while. I was using the Touch of an example of Apple listening to feedback.

But it comes down to this. If the iPhone doesn't meet your requirements then don't get it. If it does, then do. Its really up to each person whether they want to buy it or not...


----------



## Crispy (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You can add something. To your calendar. On your phone.


Read carefully, he was talking about the ipod touch, not the phone.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> The iPhone has had this capability for a while. I was using the Touch of an example of Apple listening to feedback.


C'mon! You don't need to 'listen to feedback' to know that people would want to  do things as wildly radical as send out a text message to more than one person at a time, make a video, send a MMS message etc.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

But as far as I can see the only requirement it will meet for anyone is that of "I must have the latest hyped gadget to impress people with".

I'm not a blanket apple hater by a long stretch (my next machine is going to be a Mac, and the only reason I don't own an ipod is that I'm not exactly lacking in music playback options), but the iphone is a deeply flawed, overpriced and overhyped heap of fail.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Read carefully, he was talking about the ipod touch, not the phone.


Sorry. Here's what I've read abut the iPhone's calendar from the number one fanboy site. It still seems to be lacking the basics, no?



> Too bad we still had major problems syncing appointments made on the iPhone back to our our desktop iCal calendar. It just wouldn't happen. Appointments we created on the iPhone refused to show up on the desktop, and about half the time during sync our iPhone-created appointments would actually get deleted entirely from the device..
> 
> Another issue we had with the calendar is its refusal to inherit color coding from desktop calendars, or in any way display in which calendar an appointment was made. If you're anything like us, you have a few calendars, like one for personal, work, birthdays, spouse, etc.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/03/iphone-review-part-3-apps-and-settings-camera-itunes-wrapup/


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

And am I the only one who sees a company releasing lots of updates for a product not as one who is listening to customers, but one who has failed to design a product right first time?


----------



## Crispy (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Sorry. Here's what I've read abut the iPhone's calendar from the number one fanboy site. It still seems to be lacking the basics, no?


A 4 month old review, since when there have been several updates. I suspect the bugs are fixed.


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 9, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> No MMS either, so you can use the camera to take a pic, and then, errrr, not send it to anyone
> 
> It's shite.



Don't give a shit about MMS - only used it once.  Urgently need multiple-send SMS though.  It's the only way I can organise a party - other than facebook.


----------



## jæd (Nov 9, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> But as far as I can see the only requirement it will meet for anyone is that of "I must have the latest hyped gadget to impress people with".
> 
> I'm not a blanket apple hater by a long stretch (my next machine is going to be a Mac, and the only reason I don't own an ipod is that I'm not exactly lacking in music playback options), but the iphone is a deeply flawed, overpriced and overhyped heap of fail.



The large numbers of iPhone's being sold would indicate you might be wrong...


----------



## jæd (Nov 9, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> Don't give a shit about MMS - only used it once.  Urgently need multiple-send SMS though.  It's the only way I can organise a party - other than facebook.



Same here... I'm not sure why there isn't a multiple-send SMS feature. Then again, I've only played with one for a few mins in a bar, and not actually looked at it in great detail...


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 9, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> It took well over a year for the simple task of gapless playback on the ipod to be resolved...



I'm not sure about this, but IIRC gapless playback wasn't a common feature a several years ago.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 9, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> A 4 month old review, since when there have been several updates. I suspect the bugs are fixed.



Yeah calendar has been updated in a patch issued last night, you can enter and edit and stuff now.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 9, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Yeah calendar has been updated in a patch issued last night, you can enter and edit and stuff now.


That's the touch, i meant the phone


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 9, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> The large numbers of iPhone's being sold would indicate you might be wrong...


Errrrr, so you honestly think that every one sold has been on the strength of it's features, rather than on the markeing hype?


----------



## jæd (Nov 9, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> Errrrr, so you honestly think that every one sold has been on the strength of it's features, rather than on the markeing hype?



It would be hard to say what reason a person buys their phone for. You'd have to stand outside the store and them before saying anything for sure... But I would guess if it was "marketing hype" selling a high % of phones they would be returned by now...


----------



## untethered (Nov 9, 2007)

I suspect the iPhone is a secret ploy by Apple in conjunction with BT to make phone boxes appear to be convenient and good value.


----------



## paolo (Nov 9, 2007)

Hype alone cant make a product a success. Apple has quite a few failed products that prove that, from the apple III, through the Newton and beyond.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

(((((freezing fanboys with moistening iGussets outside the Apple Stores)))))

Less than an hour to go before you can celebrate your rampant consumerism!


----------



## untethered (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> (((((freezing fanboys with moistening iGussets outside the Apple Stores)))))
> 
> Less than an hour to go before you can celebrate your rampant consumerism!



As pathetic as the iConsumers are, I entirely see their point.

They don't just want the product, they want to be part of an event. Nothing inherently wrong with that other than it's based around the aforementioned overpriced, underpowered piece of kit.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> They don't just want the product, they want to be part of an event. Nothing inherently wrong with that other than it's based around the aforementioned overpriced, underpowered piece of kit.


I dunno. There's something about the triumphant whooping and back-slapping for doing nothing more than buying an expensive consumer item (that many can't afford) that really sticks in my craw. 

As does the awful Starbucks/Apple corporate-synergistic "Sip. Buy. Repeat" mantra.


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 9, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> As pathetic as the iConsumers are, I entirely see their point.



Do you?
Sorry, it's still flying at 35000 feet above my head.


----------



## untethered (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I dunno. There's something about the triumphant whooping and back-slapping for doing nothing more than buying an expensive consumer item (that many can't afford) that really sticks in my craw.
> 
> As does the awful Starbucks/Apple corporate-synergistic "Sip. Buy. Repeat" mantra.



I simply meant that I understand the underlying motivation even if it's misplaced onto consumption, regardless of the quality or indeed price of the product.

People are looking for an identity and a community to be part of. What they get is an expensive telephone.


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 9, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> People are looking for an identity and a community to be part of. What they get is an expensive telephone.




That's probably the most tragic thing I've heard all week  

((((((((((((fan boy's lives))))))))))))))


----------



## untethered (Nov 9, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> That's probably the most tragic thing I've heard all week
> 
> ((((((((((((fan boy's lives))))))))))))))



Surely the Apple Store Big Launch Queue is ripe for some anti-consumerism action?

Perhaps a chap holding a big sign saying, "Social inadequacy clinic" with an arrow on it or something.


----------



## tarannau (Nov 9, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> Errrrr, so you honestly think that every one sold has been on the strength of it's features, rather than on the markeing hype?



People don't generally buy on funcionality alone. That way those jack of all trades, no good at any, products arise. 

For me, the iphone's too bulky and overpriced, but it doesn't change the fact that the touchscreen and UI feels genuinely intuitive and somehow futuristic. That 'wow' may be enough for some people.

What's clear is that the impact of the iphone will help to improve phone UI -as a first stab, the iphone's more than creditable.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> Do you?
> Sorry, it's still flying at 35000 feet above my head.


Have to say I don't see the point either.

If, for example, Palm were to release a new phone next month, I'd be a bit excited about it, there is no way on earth I'd queue longer than 10 minutes to buy it, and I'd have to be soft in the fucking head to camp out in the freezing November night just to be part of some non-existent 'event' that involves nothing more than, err, people camping out in the freezing November night.

And I do find the sight of hyper-ventilating fanboys waving around their purchased expensive bits of gear like it's some kind of achievement a sad comment on modern consumerism, even if the Apple employees are dutifully applauding their 'struggle.'

I can understand it if its ten year olds getting their hands on the latest Harry Potter book, but these are grown adults.


----------



## untethered (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I can understand it if its ten year olds getting their hands on the latest Harry Potter book, but these are grown adults.



Which reminds me to actually go and read Michael Bywater's _Big Babies_.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Big-Babies-Cant-Just-Grow/dp/1862079528/


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> What's clear is that the impact of the iphone will help to improve phone UI -as a first stab, the iphone's more than creditable.


Let's hope other handset manufacturers rip ideas off Apple like they ripped off ideas from Palm.


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 9, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> People don't generally buy on funcionality alone. That way those jack of all trades, no good at any, products arise.
> 
> For me, the iphone's too bulky and overpriced, but it doesn't change the fact that the touchscreen and UI feels genuinely intuitive and somehow futuristic. That 'wow' may be enough for some people.
> 
> What's clear is that the impact of the iphone will help to improve phone UI -as a first stab, the iphone's more than creditable.



To be fair, as their first phone, Apple's done a really really good job.


----------



## tarannau (Nov 9, 2007)

Let's also hope that Palm gets its finger out of its arse. It's sat on its hands too long.


----------



## jæd (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Have to say I don't see the point either.
> 
> If, for example, Palm were to release a new phone next month, I'd be a bit excited about it, there is no way on earth I'd queue longer than 10 minutes to buy it, and I'd have to be soft in the fucking head to camp out in the freezing November night just to be part of some non-existent 'event' that involves nothing more than, err, people camping out in the freezing November night.



Personally I wouldn't even bother going out into the cold for it. If Palm does release a new phone, and the word is that its good, I'm going to be ordering from home. Can't be arsed to waste freezing my arse of then arguing the toss with a poncy sales person who knows fuck-all...


----------



## jæd (Nov 9, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Let's also hope that Palm gets its finger out of its arse. It's sat on its hands too long.



If you're sitting on your hands, how can you have one sticking in your arse...? Do you have really long fingers....?


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

LOL






LAMERZ!

http://www.tuaw.com/2007/11/08/iphone-uk-the-liveblog/


----------



## Gingerman (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I can understand it if its ten year olds getting their hands on the latest Harry Potter book, but these are grown adults.


I knew a bloke in his 40s who queued all night to get his hands on a new Harry Potter book cant understand that mentality tbh


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 9, 2007)

> I arrived at 235 Regent Street around 4pm on a miserable rainy thursday, surprise surprise - actually I'm not first  I'm fourth!
> 2 guys (one from tuaw.com) and a girl.
> Originally I was going to come here with my friend L, but he had 'more important' things to do.. More Important - you ask? What can be more important than being first (original idea) in the queue for an iPhone!! Well, he had his dad fly over from Thailand for half a week, and has to take care of him.. Sucks, we know, but blood relatives are more important than our Cupertino based family..



Fuck me.


----------



## untethered (Nov 9, 2007)

I don't know about bags and brollies.

Apple should be handing out jackboots and armbands.


----------



## moose (Nov 9, 2007)

To be fair, I did stroke one this afternoon, and it was very nice


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

Looks like the hyperbolic iTension needed a bit of staff encouragement:


> He said before the doors opened at the store, Apple staff were walking up and down the lines of people "whipping them into a frenzy".







Kerayzee!

Dick.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7085643.stm


----------



## gabi (Nov 9, 2007)

The item on the news at 6 with all the whooping and cheering was both hilarious and toe-curling... unbelievable.


----------



## tarannau (Nov 9, 2007)

I must admit that was a little perplexing - a bit like a Price is Right type affair, only the folks cheering were queuing up to pay their cash, sorry use their card, too.

"Whoo, he's carrying a branded bag. WHOO - he's bought it himself  - WOO HOO, I'm getting one soon.'

Perhaps I need to feel more umbilically linked to my phone or something?


----------



## paolo (Nov 9, 2007)

Sounds awful.

Just picked one up from london bridge car phone warehouse. Apparently they have sold 20 or so. More than i expected.

On my way home to activate it now. (posting from my nokia 6300 still)


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Nov 9, 2007)

My boss just got me one (christmas bonus!)

we went to carphone warehouse first, rip-off merchants won't sell it without a £35 per 1/4 insurance policy!

went to the apple store and after a bit of embarrasing cheering from the apple staff, they sold us some over the counter.  However now trying to register it with apple store and it keeps crashing.

i'll report back when it's working more


----------



## dogmatique (Nov 9, 2007)

Well, the instant rush didn't seem to materialise - I got through to o2 on the first ring, and went through a very slow ordering process.  Finally successful at 7.30 and by 7.40 was outside the Apple Store to see the "crowds"

Well, there were barriers, a dozen security guards, and half a dozen bewildered and slightly amused policemen wondering why they were there.

And no crowds, no queues.

And the sound of wooping from Apple employees each time a successful sale went through.


----------



## tarannau (Nov 9, 2007)

Hurrah for Britain!


----------



## paolo (Nov 9, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> rip-off merchants won't sell it without a £35 per 1/4 insurance policy!
> 
> went to the apple store and after a bit of embarrasing cheering from the apple staff, they sold us some over the counter.  However now trying to register it with apple store and it keeps crashing.
> 
> i'll report back when it's working more



I went to Carphone Warehouse... insurance def not mandatory. I think that shop you went to was 'rogue'.

My activation went ok. I assume you've already updated your iTunes and all that?

Just synced some stuff. Oh my giddy aunt... this UI is unreal. At this point, it's very very hard not to gush like a sad fanboy. I'm going to do a proper review once I've spent the weekend giving it a going over, but first indications are I'm going to realllllly like this.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> went to the apple store and after a bit of embarrasing cheering from the apple staff


It's the whole manufactured US-style fake 'event-ness' that winds me up about all this.

It's a good phone. That's enough.

So fuck off with your lame PR bullshit, Apple. Cunts.


----------



## paolo (Nov 9, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> It's the whole manufactured US-style fake 'event-ness' that winds me up about all this.
> 
> It's a good phone. That's enough.
> 
> So fuck off with your lame PR bullshit, Apple. Cunts.



Can't say I disagree with any of that.

Might surprise (or comfort?) you though that your opinion is being repeated (by the brits), over in some threads on the Mac/iPhone forums. Alot of British devotees are finding it _very_ embarrassing.

"iTards" was one very succint comment.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Nov 9, 2007)

exactly,

in the apple store, a camera crew came over to us to start interviewing us about it.  the boss got very excited (even to the extent of adopting an american accent  ).  I started mentioning the shite camera and small hard drive and they soon left us alone.

however having played with it for a while. it is a thing of beauty.  I just got my website up on it and checked google maps.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Nov 9, 2007)

just posted this from the phone!


----------



## paolo (Nov 9, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> it is a thing of beauty.



isn't it? It's so much is better than I expected.


----------



## gabi (Nov 9, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> isn't it? It's so much is better than I expected.



Ya, thats what i thought when i had play on one in the states. I was expecting to be disappointed after all the bullshit hype. But it was truly fucking awesome.

All this nonsense around the launch is hilarious though. The yanks clearly didnt take into account the British cynical nature. It seems to override even their love of queueing. i wouldnt actually put it past Apple to have those idiots under the mac umbrellas on the payroll.


----------



## Melinda (Nov 9, 2007)

Just bought one from Carphone Warehouse, I was rather alarmed by the contract, but Im funny with being tied in to O2 for 18 whole months and Apple dictating some offkey (to me!) terms! 

Couple of questions though- Im assuming I choose a tariff/ sort payment upon online activation? Because sitting here, Im realising none of this was sorted in store.

Also when does the credit check happen? Did it happen when I was in the store?! I wasnt told! I simply signed a contract and got bundled out the way with the words, "As long as you dont activate the phone, you can bring it back within a week."  

So this thing of beauty is sitting on my coffee table, sad and unactivated. Really in two minds about it now.


----------



## Melinda (Nov 9, 2007)

In mitigation I should just add to my post above that Im not usually this dippy about financial things, its just that the store was packed and loud and I couldnt ask as many questions as I would have liked.


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 9, 2007)

Melinda said:
			
		

> In mitigation I should just add to my post above that Im not usually this dippy about financial things



Oh just admit it, you are always this dippy about financial things


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Nov 9, 2007)

the credit check happens when you activate through itunes. You also pick the tardif then too.

I just got home and am now posting on the 02 network I think. Free internet at home!


----------



## Melinda (Nov 9, 2007)

The shop was so packed and there was music coming from all the phones, plus plasma screens and piped Kanye coming through speakers. Honest!

Ok ok, the phone was just so shiney and pretty, I didnt listne to anything else. I bought insurance too.  


E2a- Thanks Bristly! Im so embarassed!
Data usage is free, but is there an acceptable usage limit ?


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 9, 2007)

Don't take up the insurance!!!  £35 per quarter is a fuckload of money!


----------



## untethered (Nov 10, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> Don't take up the insurance!!!  £35 per quarter is a fuckload of money!



That's more than I spent on my phone!


----------



## Melinda (Nov 10, 2007)

Oh bloody hell.  He said it would be £200 to fix the screen. 
I can cancel that one though right? Im sure the guy said something about that.


----------



## untethered (Nov 10, 2007)

Melinda said:
			
		

> Oh bloody hell.  He said it would be £200 to fix the screen.
> I can cancel that one though right? Im sure the guy said something about that.



Sadly, Apple exist in a parallel universe where a GB of RAM costs £100, a motherboard £400, a DVD writer £150, etc.

If Apple sold Bic biros they'd be £17.99 and come with optional AppleCareToPayMore at £7.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Nov 10, 2007)

when we mentioned the insurance thing at the apple store the manager seemed pretty pissed off. I don't know if it was just the long acre store or all the carphone warehouses but someones going to get in trouble. They also tried to sell us mains chargers as extras claiming (falsely) that you didn't get one in the box!


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 10, 2007)

Have a look at other insurance.  Barclays Additions do one I believe.  And I bet O2 have some too.  Both are probably cheaper than the Carphone Warehouse one.  Yep, you should definitely be able to cancel it.  I would check the barclays additions account package, then see how much o2 would charge.  Don't sit on it though, the cooling off period won't be that long.


----------



## Melinda (Nov 10, 2007)

Cheers for that lads- I'll def KO the insurance tomorrow. I'll pop into Barclays too. 

Im still feeling unsettled- I usually go and look at an item any number of times before I buy stuff, to make sure I really want it.  

Is it likely to come down substantially in price like it did in the US? It works out at over $500!


----------



## paolo (Nov 10, 2007)

Def boot that insurance.

That aside, I wouldn't stress too much at the iPhone purchase. They'll drop the price of the current one only when there's a new model. Prob a 16gb sometime early-mid 2008. It's one of those old tech things... you can wait, wait, for all the good it will do.


----------



## paolo (Nov 10, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> when we mentioned the insurance thing at the apple store the manager seemed pretty pissed off. I don't know if it was just the long acre store or all the carphone warehouses but someones going to get in trouble. They also tried to sell us mains chargers as extras claiming (falsely) that you didn't get one in the box!



defo that shop being dodgy.

CPW at London Bridge had none of that shit. Very polite, straightforward. Suggested insurance, but no hard sell when I declined. Asked if I was interested in accessories, again, no hard sell when I declined.

In and out in about 5 mins. Not even a complaint that I had a beer in my hand.


----------



## Firky (Nov 10, 2007)

post a sample picture up, the camera is supposed to be shit.


----------



## paolo (Nov 10, 2007)

firky said:
			
		

> post a sample picture up, the camera is supposed to be shit.



probably is. no interest. got a 5D.


----------



## Firky (Nov 10, 2007)

probably can't see anything up your own arse anyway.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 10, 2007)

lolz


----------



## moose (Nov 10, 2007)

Melinda said:
			
		

> Oh bloody hell.  He said it would be £200 to fix the screen.


You've broken the screen already?  
Insurance bought instore at the same time as an electrical/technology item is always rubbish - just add it on your household insurance. You won't want to be bothered fixing it anyway, if something does happen, you'll want a replacement.


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 10, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> just posted this from the phone!



So one of it's most basic selling points works then. 
Well, phew!


----------



## Melinda (Nov 10, 2007)

moose said:
			
		

> You've broken the screen already?
> Insurance bought instore at the same time as an electrical/technology item is always rubbish - just add it on your household insurance. You won't want to be bothered fixing it anyway, if something does happen, you'll want a replacement.


Hey 
No I havent broken anything yet,  I was sold the insurance on the basis that it would cost £200 to fix the screen in the eventuality of me knackering the screen. Im taking your's and Xan's advice and ditching he insurance today. 

I CANNOT believe the extent I was hypnotised by the beauty of the damn thing. I didnt listen to anything! Siren iphone!


----------



## paolo (Nov 10, 2007)

firky said:
			
		

> probably can't see anything up your own arse anyway.



Doof!


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 10, 2007)

Barclays Additions First is £6.50 a month and had loads of benefits in addition to the phone insurance.  check it out: http://www.personal.barclays.co.uk/BRC1/jsp/brccontrol?site=pfs&task=homefreegroup&value=12854

The other packages look even better.


----------



## Melinda (Nov 10, 2007)

You're up early! 

Cheers for the info- its really appreciated. xx


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 10, 2007)

No problem!

I'm sorely tempted by the iphone still.  I'm reluctant to go into any phone shops, just in case I end up succumbing to the high-fiving employees.

I have to keep reminding myself - it doesn't have 3G, there's no spare memory card slot, and you can't send text messages to multiple people.

This is going to be difficult


----------



## Melinda (Nov 10, 2007)

I knew none of that! 

But it does have 8gb of memory though? 

Im telling you it looks SO GOOD. Piano black and shiney with chromey bits!
And the colours on the screen! It feels lovely in your hands, although my thumbs seem a bit large for texting. The maps are wicked and youtube looks cool on it too!

Go buy one.... its new and shiney </siren>.


----------



## scruff (Nov 10, 2007)

No multiple texts? How come?


----------



## editor (Nov 10, 2007)

BBC's review is worth a read. 


> Graphics and picture-heavy websites take an age to load. But RSS feeds and mobile-friendly websites (such as news.bbc.co.uk/mobile) load quite quickly over the 2G Edge network that O2 offers.
> 
> I also found it sufficiently speedy to send and receive e-mails on the go. Sadly, O2's Edge network only covers 30% of the country so if you are not in a major urban area, you will experience painfully slow data connections....
> 
> ...


 The articles goes on to praise the interface and stability of the phone.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7079098.stm


----------



## dogmatique (Nov 10, 2007)

Or try Stephen Fry's typically ebullient reposte in the Guardian today:



> The iPhone is a digital experience in the literal sense of the word. The user's digits roam, stroke, tweak, tweeze, pinch, probe, slide, swipe and tap across the glass screen forging a relationship with the device that is like no other.
> 
> "But I don't want to 'forge a relationship', I just want to get the job done," you say? Well then, you know what? Don't buy one. And stop reading this. You're only doing so in the first place to lend fuel to your snorts and puffs of rage. Allow us our pleasures.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/nov/10/iphone1


----------



## editor (Nov 10, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> Or try Stephen Fry's typically ebullient reposte in the Guardian today:


Funny that he's had to go on the defensive already (and Fry really is Fanboy #1), but I like this comment:


> In the end the iPhone is like some glorious early-60s sports car. Not as practical, reliable, economical, sensible or roomy as a family saloon but oh, the joy.


I'm not sure that it's 'changed the market forever' either. High end phones may nick/adopt some of  its features, but I can't see it having much impact on the low end of the market.


----------



## paolo (Nov 10, 2007)

slow compared with? Does the reviewer say? Its a meaningless comment without a reference point.


----------



## editor (Nov 10, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> slow compared with? Does the reviewer say? Its a meaningless comment without a reference point.


Compared to 3G, I'd imagine.


----------



## paolo (Nov 10, 2007)

Editor (or anyone):   can you time a web page load on your phone then post the result , along with URL phone model  browser and connection type? I can then try it on the iPhone over edge (and GPRS at some point)


----------



## paolo (Nov 10, 2007)

I'm not expecting the iPhone to be faster but so far I am genuinely surprised how quick it is.


----------



## editor (Nov 10, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Editor (or anyone):   can you time a web page load on your phone then post the result , along with URL phone model  browser and connection type? I can then try it on the iPhone over edge (and GPRS at some point)


I surf with my images turned off , but loading urban using the 'lite' screen took about 3 seconds (Treo 650/Blazer).

But I'll be the first to admit that the Palm browser isn't very good and I'm only on Ye Olde GPRS. Still, it's usually fine for my needs: I'm not interested in viewing big glossy sitres when I'm on the move - I just want info!

Oh, and Google maps (searching for 'Oxford Street, London) took about 9 seconds to download the full map.

It was *way* quicker using 3G on the Treo 500v I tested.


----------



## editor (Nov 10, 2007)

The Telegraph thinks you're a wazzock!



> Q: Is it an internet browser?
> 
> A: Yes - but it's more than that. It's an internet browser that goes half as fast as one of those rotten old 3G mobile phones - and works across only 30 per cent of the country unless you're at a wireless hotspot. Oh, and it's very, very expensive.
> 
> ...


----------



## tarannau (Nov 10, 2007)

Blimey, Sam Leith and The Telegraph.

You'll be linking to one of Clarkson's witless opinion-piece diatribes next...


----------



## editor (Nov 10, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Blimey, Sam Leith and The Telegraph.
> 
> You'll be linking to one of Clarkson's witless opinion-piece diatribes next...


Come on. Admit it. Even you're embarrassed by the Apple's corporation's attempts to foist some ghastly US-style, all-whoopin' and a-clappin', heartily backslappin', high-spendin' consumer-fest of a launch on us Brits.


----------



## paolo (Nov 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I surf with my images turned off , but loading urban using the 'lite' screen took about 3 seconds (Treo 650/Blazer).
> 
> But I'll be the first to admit that the Palm browser isn't very good and I'm only on Ye Olde GPRS. Still, it's usually fine for my needs: I'm not interested in viewing big glossy sitres when I'm on the move - I just want info!
> 
> ...



Maybe try with images on? (a note for your armoury : you can't turn images off in this version of safari  )


----------



## editor (Nov 10, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Maybe try with images on? (a note for your armoury : you can't turn images off in this version of safari  )


It'll take forever, but give me an URL and I'll see how slow my Treo can go!

(It's mad that you can't turn off images in Safari btw - really stupid).


----------



## paolo (Nov 10, 2007)

Try the urban forum start page. Its about 10 s on this

E2a: that was edge. I'm on the bus - GPRS is happenning occasionally but not long enough to test


----------



## paolo (Nov 10, 2007)

Google maps, by the way is sooo 
much nicer than their regular mobile version. I can scroll-zoom-locate maybe 10 times faster than my nokia (also GPRS)


----------



## Firky (Nov 10, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Doof!



Go on! Take a pic, if I was looking at a contract phone I'd probably get this one.

What I think is funny is how fiercely owners of the iphone defend it and how fiercely none owners slate it 

"I WANT ONE ITS NOT FAIR! IT MUST BE SHIT!"


----------



## Firky (Nov 10, 2007)

I should say I wouldn't buy the first generation of apple iphone, I would wait for a year or so. I want 3G and the ability to install Opera.


----------



## paolo (Nov 10, 2007)

firky said:
			
		

> I should say I wouldn't buy the first generation of apple iphone, I would wait for a year or so. I want 3G and the ability to install Opera.



3g will be nice - edge is surpisingly usable though. I'd like opera mini for the places where there's no edge... The proxy mechanism makes GPRS tolerable. Not sure I'd bother with full opera though. Overall though yes - the 2nd version will be more rounded


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 10, 2007)

The low number of mp is a fair point but the point about light isn't really, most phones are shit in low light conditions anyway. 

Tbh, after trying the touch, I can see how a lot of that stuff really doesn't matter when you're using an interface that just feels that cool to use.


----------



## G. Fieendish (Nov 10, 2007)

I wonder what will happen, when people import "unlocked" iPhones from France, after November the 29th _(the French iPhone launch date)_ & then have problems....
Will Apple U.K honour the warranty, or will they refuse to handle them, thus effectively treating them as Hacked units.... 
Note: under French law, unlike the U.K, phones cannot be sold "pre-locked" to a network provider's service....


----------



## paolo (Nov 10, 2007)

G. Fieendish said:
			
		

> I wonder what will happen, when people import "unlocked" iPhones from France, after November the 29th _(the French iPhone launch date)_ & then have problems....
> Will Apple U.K honour the warranty, or will they refuse to handle them, thus effectively treating them as Hacked units....
> Note: under French law, unlike the U.K, phones cannot be sold "pre-locked" to a network provider's service....



I believe the existing policy is that - within the same country at least - they will support everything but the phone functions if you don't have an official contract.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 11, 2007)

OK, I've had a play on a UK phone this evening, bought by a fanboy work collegue.

Still not changed my mind, it's a rubbish (and I mean, _rubbish_) smartphone, with a brilliant (and I mean _brilliant_) interface, nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## paolo (Nov 11, 2007)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> OK, I've had a play on a UK phone this evening, bought by a fanboy work collegue.
> 
> Still not changed my mind, it's a rubbish (and I mean, _rubbish_) smartphone, with a brilliant (and I mean _brilliant_) interface, nothing more, nothing less.



Very succinct 

I certainly wouldn't casually recommend one to anyone with a Blackberry or Treo.


----------



## editor (Nov 11, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Tbh, after trying the touch, I can see how a lot of that stuff really doesn't matter when you're using an interface that just feels that cool to use.


Until the novelty wears off and you want to get things done, I expect.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 11, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Until the novelty wears off and you want to get things done, I expect.


Dunno how long it lasts but my mates had his for a week or so and he still enthuses about it...

I was mightly impressed by it, even typing was a piece of piss (and this was while very drunk!), finding and logging onto wifi networks was painless and surfing the net was the closest I've seen (with a twist of course) on a mobile to using a proper pc.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Dunno how long it lasts but my mates had his for a week or so and he still enthuses about it...


Hope he's got it insured:



> Sensing the advantage of this insider information, others were quick with their questions. "Can she confirm that O2 are pushing £7.50/month insurance, to cover the situation that in the case of a lost iPhone, O2 will require the unlucky punter to buy a new phone and undertake a second contract?" asks Lex2002.
> 
> We checked with O2 this morning and, unbelievably, this is true. If you lose your iPhone without insurance, then you will have to splash out on a new handset, and take out a new contract, paying two monthly tariffs at once. Now that is a costly mistake.
> 
> http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/137055/iphone-your-first-impressions.html


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Hope he's got it insured:



Go back a couple of posts and you'll see I was talking about the Touch...


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Go back a couple of posts and you'll see I was talking about the Touch...


My comments about fancypants eye candy interfaces applies to both the iPhone and the Touch. In fact, any consumer device.

But anyway, what do you think about O2's replacement policy?


----------



## Crispy (Nov 12, 2007)

It's shit. Totally turned off getting one now (not that I was really considering it)

But if/when my ipod finally dies, I'll take a look at the touch. If they've got it up to 16GB, I'd bite. Although a nano 16GB would be more suited to me (and my wallet, no doubt)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> My comments about fancypants eye candy interfaces applies to both the iPhone and the Touch. In fact, any consumer device.
> 
> But anyway, what do you think about O2's replacement policy?


Um, yeah but he's got a Touch which has nothing to do with O2, more to the point I was assuming the Touch and the iPhone are basically the same in terms of use and saying I found it a piece of piss to type on and that I liked the interface.

Anyhoo...to answer your question:

It sucks donkey balls, big time. That's really shit of them but given the fact that Apple are fucking them royally on this device it's no surprise O2 are acting in this way...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> It's shit. Totally turned off getting one now (not that I was really considering it)
> 
> But if/when my ipod finally dies, I'll take a look at the touch. If they've got it up to 16GB, I'd bite. Although a nano 16GB would be more suited to me.


I'd be seriously tempted by one if 

a) the giggage was upped to at least 32
b) the price dropped below £200

At the moment I'm saving for the mighty 160 gigger, my dream of all my movies in my pocket will come true, oh yes.


----------



## jæd (Nov 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> But if/when my ipod finally dies, I'll take a look at the touch. If they've got it up to 16GB, I'd bite. Although a nano 16GB would be more suited to me.



They have. Either that or the one on my desk is some kind of Far-East clone with a hacked ui...


----------



## Crispy (Nov 12, 2007)

I don't really need the movies. If I'm travelling for any length of time and want to watch a movie, I'll use sparrow's laptop (and not have to transcode stuff!) - if she's not with me, I'll read a book.

That just stopped me buying one.

16/32 nano it is then!

Although now I see that the classic has 1/3rd more battery life. Weird, I thought it would be the other way round.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> I don't really need the movies. If I'm travelling for any length of time and want to watch a movie, I'll use sparrow's laptop (and not have to transcode stuff!) - if she's not with me, I'll read a book.



Fair enough, it's not just about long plane/train journies for me though; its for those quickly made video nights also I really like the idea of having my family guy etc with where ever I am for those quick views on the tube etc (without having to get out a laptop, power up, then find the folder with films in etc).


----------



## Crispy (Nov 12, 2007)

I couldn't stand watching TV on the tube, myself...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> I couldn't stand watching TV on the tube, myself...



I can't wait to! Although I'll probably get the same looks I get while cracking up listening to Bill Hicks and Richard Pryor...


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> It's shit. Totally turned off getting one now (not that I was really considering it)
> 
> But if/when my ipod finally dies, I'll take a look at the touch. If they've got it up to 16GB, I'd bite. Although a nano 16GB would be more suited to me (and my wallet, no doubt)


I think the Touch is a very nice looking piece of kit. If it can get to do all the usual PDA functions properly (and grow a card slot)  it would be almost tempting.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I think the Touch is a very nice looking piece of kit.



It's even better to use, surfing was very neat on it the best mobile web experience I've had thus far.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> I couldn't stand watching TV on the tube, myself...


Both my old Sony Clie TH55 (with iPhone sized screen) and my Treo 650 can run video fairly smoothly, but it's not something that really appeals to me when I'm on the move.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 12, 2007)

Yeah, I've tried it before on various handheld devices. It's just no fun. You have to keep the screen rock steady, and the sound's no good. And it's too easy to get distracted by people moving past you or pushing their rucksack in your face.

On a train, you've got more personal space, but also enough space to get a laptop out, so it's redundant there.


----------



## cybertect (Nov 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Hope he's got it insured:



It seems O2 are internally confused about the situation, then

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=384924&page=2



> I got this email reply from O2 today. Seems pretty clear....
> 
> "If your iPhone is lost or stolen and you also don't have Insurance on your account, you can buy a new iPhone by paying the £269. You don't need to buy a new contract, as we'll transfer your services to your new iPhone.
> 
> Please note if you've a valid insurance cover on your iPhone, we'll then provide you with the iPhone and an inbuilt SIM card. You can get all the details related to insurance in your welcome email."



Similar response quoted by another poster on the same thread.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 12, 2007)

cybertect said:
			
		

> It seems O2 are internally confused about the situation, then
> 
> http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=384924&page=2
> 
> ...


Ah, well that's a bit more standard. Still more expensive than a regular phone of course.


----------



## paolo (Nov 12, 2007)

The written contract from o2 explicitly states that the current contract ceases if you buy a new phone. You do take a new contract though. There is no double contract scenario.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 12, 2007)

On the other hand, some iPhone fans may opt to get their hands on an iPod touch - which offers many iPhone features and hosts 16GB storage, and is a delight to use. In an odd twist of fate, O2 is giving away free iPod touch's with some phones and certain contracts. See here
http://www.dialaphone.co.uk/freegift/AIPODTO16G/

So there's a way many people can get hold of a slice of multi-touch delight, without spending huge amounts on the phone (though contract prices seem to start at £35 per month, for better text and voice call allowances than you get from the iPhone).

Just struck me as interesting, that is all.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> On the other hand, some iPhone fans may opt to get their hands on an iPod touch - which offers many iPhone features and hosts 16GB storage, and is a delight to use. In an odd twist of fate, O2 is giving away free iPod touch's with some phones and certain contracts. See here
> http://www.dialaphone.co.uk/freegift/AIPODTO16G/


I think the combo of the Touch with a good phone would be full of win -especially if the Touch gets hacked to allow full PDA goodness on board.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 12, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> On the other hand, some iPhone fans may opt to get their hands on an iPod touch - which offers many iPhone features and hosts 16GB storage, and is a delight to use. In an odd twist of fate, O2 is giving away free iPod touch's with some phones and certain contracts. See here
> http://www.dialaphone.co.uk/freegift/AIPODTO16G/
> 
> So there's a way many people can get hold of a slice of multi-touch delight, without spending huge amounts on the phone (though contract prices seem to start at £35 per month, for better text and voice call allowances than you get from the iPhone).
> ...


Yeah that is...will keep that in mind when 'normal' folk ask me the 'is the iPhone worth getting' question...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I think the combo of the Touch with a good phone would be full of win -especially if the Touch gets hacked to allow full PDA goodness on board.



It's a damn shame the Touch doesn't have bluetooth, bonding it to my n73 and having 3g net access via it would be cool!


----------



## rocketman (Nov 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I think the combo of the Touch with a good phone would be full of win -especially if the Touch gets hacked to allow full PDA goodness on board.



Yeah to an extent I think that's coming, as the iPhone SDK that's being released next year to let developers build apps for the iPhone will also let them build apps for the iPod touch. 

My biggest complaint at the touch is its lack of an email client, I think that's a bad decision on Apple's part. Seems so arbitrary to not offer that in touch v.1. Though you can (sort of) use Gmail services on a touch, it's not perfectly supported.

Still, when Adobe and Apple have figured it out, I expect Flash support for both devices (probably after Christmas) so then a new selection of options for webmail kick in, probably.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 12, 2007)

Apple wouldn't want to steal profitable iphone sales by making the touch competitive on features. My hunch is that the touch will only become a 'proper' PDA with the addition of 3rd party apps, which most likely won't be as well integrated and slick as the 1st party stuff on the iphone.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> My biggest complaint at the touch is its lack of an email client, I think that's a bad decision on Apple's part. Seems so arbitrary to not offer that in touch v.1. Though you can (sort of) use Gmail services on a touch, it's not perfectly supported.


Such a shame Sony didn't stick with the Palm OS. 

My three year old Clie has the same size screen as the Touch, plus Bluetooth, Flash support, Wi Fi, card slot, video recording, voice recording, MP3 playback, full email client and an (average) browser, backed by thousands of Palm programs.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Apple wouldn't want to steal profitable iphone sales by making the touch competitive on features. My hunch is that the touch will only become a 'proper' PDA with the addition of 3rd party apps, which most likely won't be as well integrated and slick as the 1st party stuff on the iphone.



Well, I'm meeting some Apple people tomorrow. I'm gonna point out the iPhone's killer feature is that it's a phone. I don't think having email on the touch would do anything much to reduce iPhone sales, but would massively widen the number of people using an Apple device.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 12, 2007)

Yeah, but you have to be a bit of a geek to use it, right? Fiddly interface with loads of drop down menus?

The iphone isn't great for features, but it really shifts mobile UI into the next gear.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Such a shame Sony didn't stick with the Palm OS.
> 
> My three year old Clie has the same size screen as the Touch, plus Bluetooth, Flash support, Wi Fi, card slot, video recording, voice recording, MP3 playback, full email client and an (average) browser, backed by thousands of Palm programs.



Yeah, I never liked Palm on a Mac, you see. The integration was always too annoying for me, so i stopped using the Palms i've had (now given away or sold). Horses for courses, though. Have you seen the screens on touch/iPhone? They really are very good. I've seen similar screens on other devices, but their clarity isn't always all that - not saying it's the same for you, you're clearly into your Palms, so the experience works for you. Fair enough.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 12, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Such a shame Sony didn't stick with the Palm OS.
> 
> My three year old Clie has the same size screen as the Touch, plus Bluetooth, Flash support, Wi Fi, card slot, video recording, voice recording, MP3 playback, full email client and an (average) browser, backed by thousands of Palm programs.



You know I never really understood why they just dumped the line (a mate had one and it was very cool) instead of evolving it into a smartphone?


----------



## jæd (Nov 12, 2007)

Looks like the Editor will be getting copy+paste...:



> Apple has confirmed that it has plenty more upgrades to come for the Apple iPhone.
> 
> "All the complaints and feature requests we've had can be fixed and added by software upgrades", a spokesman for the company told Pocket-lint.
> 
> The news will come as a relief to new customers who bought the company's mobile phone over the weekend and may have been disappointed by some of its limitations.


http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/11240/12264/apple-iphone-features-not-finished.phtml


----------



## Crispy (Nov 12, 2007)

Sneaky tactic if they've analysed that right - keep adding functionality with the official updates, so that you're less inclined to hack it and risk bricking.


----------



## jæd (Nov 12, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Sneaky tactic if they've analysed that right - keep adding functionality with the official updates, so that you're less inclined to hack it and risk bricking.



It is also keeps it in the news for a while...


----------



## Chester Copperpot (Nov 12, 2007)

Not going to read the whole thread but has anyone actually got one yet?

I walked around carphone warehouse on Sunday and it was packed!


----------



## Crispy (Nov 12, 2007)

paolo999 got one, his review is on the boards in a seperate thread.


----------



## Chester Copperpot (Nov 12, 2007)

Cheers


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Looks like the Editor will be getting copy+paste..


I've already got copy+paste, thanks.


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 12, 2007)

> Apple has confirmed that it has plenty more upgrades to come for the Apple iPhone.
> 
> "All the complaints and feature requests we've had can be fixed and added by software upgrades"



Well stop being cynical cunts about it and just put them on to begin with FFS  

I've used Mac's all my computer life - swear by them & love using them, but all this bollocks from Apple recently, frankly stinks.


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 12, 2007)

Ended up ordering the Tytn II from Orange.  Got a T-Mobile Flext 25-style tariff, 30Mb data during the day, and unlimited evening and weekend data for £33/month.  Phone was only £40 too.


----------



## paolo (Nov 12, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> Well stop being cynical cunts about it and just put them on to begin with FFS
> 
> I've used Mac's all my computer life - swear by them & love using them, but all this bollocks from Apple recently, frankly stinks.



Product flaws are not automatically a conspiracy.


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 13, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Product flaws are not automatically a conspiracy.



I'm well aware of that.

I'm just saying that it seems Apple are playing a rather cynical game with consumers at the moment - not that they haven't in the past - just seems to have been notched up a level recently.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 13, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> It is also keeps it in the news for a while...



Which what I think the point is...


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Nov 13, 2007)

ok i've been using my iphone for a few days now and there seem to be a few glaring omissions from it

1) you cant send texts to multiple recipients!!!
2) no mms??? you can send emails but not picture messages
3) no video camera, these have been standard on phones for ages
4) you can't highlight text to delete it, only hold down the delete button
5) the mail programme has no spam filter, you have to do this at server end, and can't mark things as spam
6) the camera is only 2 mega pixels, surely this is really old technology

it's a beautiful thing, and mine being free (present from the boss) I don't really care too much, but it does seem odd.  I guess  most of these can be rectified with OS upgrades, but knowing apple they will only come as standard with iphone 2.0 released in 6months and demanding a new 18 month contract.


----------



## editor (Nov 13, 2007)

I had a play with it today. It's mighty purdy and the interface sure is damn funky but I don't really buy a phone to be able to flick through photos, zoom in and out of pictures and majestically glide up and down address lists.


----------



## dogmatique (Nov 13, 2007)

More gripes, dunno if they've been highlighted already:

1. Can't synch at more than one location - I use my ipod and phone at home and at work, and can happily synch both at both locations. - the iPhone wants to wipe any data syched at either location, which frankly, is a pile of shit.  Why shouldn't I be able to add music at work or at home?  Or are they automatically treating all customers as potential thieves?

2. You can't just drag and drop music onto the iPhone like you can with an iPod.  You've got to create a playlist which is then synched with the phone, hence taking a simple and effective way of moving things the way you want to into the realms of Windows Mobile.  Pure stupidity.

3. My iPod remote "is not compatible with iPhone" the message says when I plug it in.  Well, almost forgivable, until you think, hang on, not only is the headphone socket recessed so that you have to either use Apple's leaky headphones, or buy an adapter, but that the supplied "remote" - the tiny clicky thing on the iPhone's headphone cable will only pause or advance a track, there is no volume control so you have to get the bloody thing out of your pocket every time one track is louder than another.  

And there's no iPhone remote available to my knowledge.  Certainly not from Apple.

Of course there's other minor gripes, but they've been listed earlier.  The one fantastic thing is web browsing.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 13, 2007)

1. This is very shit
2. Surely dragging and dropping onto a playlist is just as easy?
3. This is very shit


----------



## dogmatique (Nov 13, 2007)

2. Yes and no.  An unecessary step has been put in the place of a simple functon.

More upset about 1.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 13, 2007)

hang on a minute - how do you sync your ipod in two locations - each ipod is linked to one copy of itunes


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 13, 2007)

Saw some posing tosser on the train with one tonight, he kept move pictures around and zooming in on them then looking up every so often to see if anyone was watching, then back to more wanky iPhone play, more looking up. 

After he gave up, he put it away and pulled out a 5g iPod and proceed to hold it out in front of him then scroll through music (I assume).


----------



## dogmatique (Nov 14, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> hang on a minute - how do you sync your ipod in two locations - each ipod is linked to one copy of itunes


I've always been able to. Though I do remember a period a couple of years ago when it was an issue, but apart from that it's always worked.


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Saw some posing tosser on the train with one tonight, he kept move pictures around and zooming in on them then looking up every so often to see if anyone was watching, then back to more wanky iPhone play, more looking up.


I think the whole photo zoom/scrolling malarkey is impressive and nicely done, but without the ability to insert a memory card from a camera it's utterly redundant for me.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 14, 2007)

Yeah I do this, my 4G is able to sync at work, on this laptop, my old desktop and even a family members pc no problem.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 14, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I think the whole photo zoom/scrolling malarkey is impressive and nicely done, but without the ability to insert a memory card from a camera it's utterly redundant for me.


Oh don't get me wrong I think it's very cool but I would never stand there 'showing it off' to complete strangers in some odd attempt to look cool..


----------



## dogmatique (Nov 14, 2007)

If there was *any* other device that didn't have a slot for a memory card, of whatever kind, even a propriatery one like Sony, people would go mad!

Um.  Still like t'internet andit'spretty


----------



## rocketman (Nov 14, 2007)

I'm interested in taking a look at the legal agreement in settings, I think it's worth discussion.


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> I'm interested in taking a look at the legal agreement in settings, I think it's worth discussion.


Do tell more!


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 14, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> hang on a minute - how do you sync your ipod in two locations - each ipod is linked to one copy of itunes




Mrs Pie's nano syncs fine on her imac, her work PC & my macbook.


----------



## paolo (Nov 14, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Do tell more!



Its a series of third party software licenses. If this excites you, you can find loads of them on the web. Start with the gpl 2.0 license. Then there's the IBM license relating to the bsd kernel, the various open source libraries such as open type.

Do you want me to post them here?


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Its a series of third party software licenses. If this excites you, you can find loads of them on the web. Start with the gpl 2.0 license. Then there's the IBM license relating to the bsd kernel, the various open source libraries such as open type.


I was rather hoping for a summary of the contentious points implied by rocketman.


----------



## paolo (Nov 14, 2007)

rocketman ? Is it going to be a long long time ? It will be if you read all of them


----------



## rocketman (Nov 14, 2007)

Hi sorry I don't have time to get into this right now, but there's some statements on data that I find a little suspect, I think these may be admonitions in the agreement popped in by O2, but can't quite tell. Equally, of course, balanced investigation requires checking the legal agreements that cover other similar devices, as this could be standard stuff, but is it? That I don't know. Worth a look I think,


----------



## fjydj (Nov 14, 2007)

has anyone unlocked their UK iphone, and is it easy to do?


----------



## dogmatique (Nov 14, 2007)

There's plenty of solutions on google, and likely more, free solutions to come soon.

Plus there's plenty of already unlocked iPhones on eBay.

Re the multi site synching thing, looks like you can't do it for music (yet), but there are work rounds if you synch say, info at one site, and music at another.

Good little video here


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Nov 15, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Saw some posing tosser on the train with one tonight, he kept move pictures around and zooming in on them then looking up every so often to see if anyone was watching, then back to more wanky iPhone play, more looking up.
> 
> After he gave up, he put it away and pulled out a 5g iPod and proceed to hold it out in front of him then scroll through music (I assume).



Thats almost exactly what I would do if I had one


----------



## pinkmonkey (Nov 15, 2007)

I'd be terrified if I had one, might as well have 'mug me' written on your forehead.  It's bad enough as it is, I don't use my phone in the street in plenty of places for that reason.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 15, 2007)

Saw someone else with one on the tube yesterday, some young kid pulled it out saw me look at it with interest and had the look of fear on his face, promptly shoved it back in his pocket!


----------



## editor (Nov 16, 2007)

Much as I expected, the iPhone 'virtual' keyboard is proving more inaccurate than a good ol' QWERTY jobbie:





> The researchers found that while iPhone users entered text as fast as their counterparts, they made significantly more texting errors. iPhone users made 5.6 errors per message, while keyboard users made 2.1 mistakes per message and numeric phone typers made 2.4 mistakes...
> 
> Surprisingly, the study found that iPhone texters don't improve with experience. The researchers also asked users in the other groups to send text messages using the iPhone. These novice iPhone users made mistakes at the same rate as people who have owned iPhones for at least one month, the study found.
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20071114/tc_pcworld/139617;_ylt=ApFrSjIVoRL4fof8CGRdexqSxLEF


I really don't like the feel of onscreen keyboards either.


----------



## jæd (Nov 16, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Much as I expected, the iPhone 'virtual' keyboard is proving more inaccurate than a good ol' QWERTY jobbie:
> I really don't like the feel of onscreen keyboards either.






			
				Yahoo said:
			
		

> The study, while *based on an extremely small sample size*, makes for interesting reading.



Had a play with my Boss's new iPhone... When's the new Centro coming out...? I might be tempted, though I don't want to switch to O2 again...


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Nov 16, 2007)

My mate has a touch, they are very pretty things indeed.


----------



## editor (Nov 16, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> ---


Yes, it was a small sample, but it's in line with many people's experiences (mine included). Do you disagree with its findings?

No idea when the Centro is coming out but I wish it would hurry up.


----------



## jæd (Nov 16, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Yes, it was a small sample, but it's in line with many people's experiences (mine included). Do you disagree with its findings?



More details on the survey are at http://www.usercentric.com/news.asp?ID=391

There's no disputing their results, but I'd question the methodology (ie, the small sample size). Comparing the Treo's keyboard to the Touch's I'd say I probably make about the same number of mistakes on each. (Then again, for something extended I'd still prefer a bigger keyboard)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 16, 2007)

Well I managed to use the touch while drunk with no real problems! The lack of actual buttons doesn't bother me in the slightest...anyway this gives me the perfect excuse to .


----------



## editor (Nov 16, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> MComparing the Treo's keyboard to the Touch's I'd say I probably make about the same number of mistakes on each. (Then again, for something extended I'd still prefer a bigger keyboard)


There's a world of difference between a real physical keyboard with tactile feedback and an on-screen one, and I'd expect even small ones like the Treo's to outperform virtual ones. As this survey discovered.



> *Phone keyboard leads to more errors, say usability consultants*
> Although iPhone users were able to text as quickly as QWERTY-keyboard owners, iPhone typists made more than twice as many errors. Even worse, many of these errors were left uncorrected, apparently due to (lack of) familiarity with the magnifying glass that lets you correct text. The study suggested that people new to the iPhone made about the same number of errors as regular iPhone owners, and also found that users of numeric keypads made far less errors on QWERTY keyboards than on the iPhone


More: 



> "Participants also indicated a preference for hard-key Qwerty phones when texting," said User Centric's Jen Allen.
> 
> But what of the iPhone's much-vaunted ability to monitor users' input and adjust itself accordingly for better typing results?
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 16, 2007)

I found the touch keyboard better than the Treo because its better spaced, the Treo's is too cramped for me...


----------



## stdPikachu (Nov 16, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Much as I expected, the iPhone 'virtual' keyboard is proving more inaccurate than a good ol' QWERTY jobbie



I wish they'd used the craptacular half-QWERTY keyboard my blackberry has, it's appallingly unintuitive. The keyboard on the BB 8700 was great, but the buttons on the 8100 a) are small b) have no gaps between them c) have piss-poor tactile feedback d) the auto-correct software is fucking bollocks. Prolly still better than a virtual keyboard but gimme a good ol' qwerty any day.

/me sinks back down below parapet


----------



## perplexis (Nov 16, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> Ended up ordering the Tytn II from Orange.  Got a T-Mobile Flext 25-style tariff, 30Mb data during the day, and unlimited evening and weekend data for £33/month.  Phone was only £40 too.


I got one of them.
Windows Mobile is a piece of total crapshite.
It takes ages to respond to the call answer of end buttons, and it's just generally ugly and lame. I am trying to find a way of installing Linux (or a better ROM) on it without breaking it.


----------



## jæd (Nov 16, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> There's a world of difference between a real physical keyboard with tactile feedback and an on-screen one, and I'd expect even small ones like the Treo's to outperform virtual ones. As this survey discovered.



The survey, and my personal experiences are two different things...


----------



## editor (Nov 17, 2007)

The actual sales figures are slowly filtering through and they're nowhere near as high as tabloid claims:





> iPhone sales were below tabloid guesstimates of 100,000 (The Sun & The Guardian) and 70,000 (The Mirror) - Peter Erskine, CEO of UK operator O2 said the number was in the "tens of thousands"...
> 
> ...That's probably not what O2 was thinking when it hired 1,400 extra staff ahead of the launch to cope with "unprecedented" demand. Apple's retail partners even shut up shop ahead of the launch on Friday afternoon to prepare for the crush.
> 
> ...


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 17, 2007)

perplexis said:
			
		

> I got one of them.
> Windows Mobile is a piece of total crapshite.
> It takes ages to respond to the call answer of end buttons, and it's just generally ugly and lame. I am trying to find a way of installing Linux (or a better ROM) on it without breaking it.



Not had too many problems with windows mobile.  I thought it wasn't a bad looking device - my friends like the look of it.


----------



## editor (Nov 17, 2007)

They've got five iPhones out on a dedicated display in the Carphone Warehouse in Brixton, all of them uncharged last time I looked. Nice work store staff!


----------



## paolo (Nov 17, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The actual sales figures are slowly filtering through and they're nowhere near as high as tabloid claims:



I don't know where those inflated figures came from. Cpw said they expected to sell 10,000 - which is what they sold. But I guess that's not such an exciting story. A bit like the Pc pro 'shock double contract revelation'.

And rocketman with his 'special clauses' story. So special he doesn't have time to talk about them.

It's a way of getting attention I suppose.


----------



## paolo (Nov 17, 2007)

a much more worthy - and very real - story is carphone warehouse staff lying to sell their very expensive insurance. This has been happening at several stores. If the register had actually been following the real word-on-the-forums stuff, they would know about this.


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 17, 2007)

I discovered a childishly amusing new game whilst in the Temple of Apple the other day.

Whilst having a good old fiddle with an iPhone I keept getting harassed by a horribly over familiar staffer - ( I shit you not: "Hi! You look like you're loving the iPhone!") - so I had a bit of fun with her when she persisted in asking "can I show you some of the brilliant features!?"
So I said "Yes, ok. Can you show me how to send text mesages to multiple contacts, how to cut & paste and how I can plug in my nice £80 Sennheiser headphones?


----------



## Sunray (Nov 17, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> I discovered a childishly amusing new game whilst in the Temple of Apple the other day.
> 
> Whilst having a good old fiddle with an iPhone I keept getting harassed by a horribly over familiar staffer - ( I shit you not: "Hi! You look like you're loving the iPhone!") - so I had a bit of fun with her when she persisted in asking "can I show you some of the brilliant features!?"
> So I said "Yes, ok. Can you show me how to send text mesages to multiple contacts, how to cut & paste and how I can plug in my nice £80 Sennheiser headphones?



I think that is as bad as waiting in line to buy one, surely you have better things to do than harass people who I can imagine would love to not be working in an Apple store.


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 17, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> I think that is as bad as waiting in line to buy one, surely you have better things to do than harass people who I can imagine would love to not be working in an Apple store.




Oh, fuck off.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 18, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> And rocketman with his 'special clauses' story. So special he doesn't have time to talk about them..



So you haven't gone and looked at the legal on your iPhone in order to consider it yourself? 

FYI: I'm following the legal agreement up, taking advice and so on in order to determine if it's a standard agreement or not. Because it could be a story. Why don't you take a look and see for yourself, rather than being such a snide cunt?

Ah well, "you are all individuals", "yes, we are all individuals".


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 18, 2007)

Wow er this thread turned oddly nasty. What the hell is up with you lot?


----------



## editor (Nov 18, 2007)

Where's the iLove gone?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 18, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Where's the iLove gone?


----------



## paolo (Nov 18, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> So you haven't gone and looked at the legal on your iPhone in order to consider it yourself?



Yes, I did. That's why I posted saying it appeared to be a long list of third party license agreements, and made a silly comment to Editor suggesting he might want to go and read these kinds of things on t'internet.

His reply to that was that he'd hope you would able to explain what you were implying. I was also hoping you would.

So far you haven't - so yes, I am skeptical.

That skepticism may be proven to be unfounded - in which case, I'd be the first to join you in condemming whatever it is.

In the spirit of keeping an open mind, can you give a clue as to which of the 3rd party software licenses has the problem? If so, I'll read it in detail.


----------



## jæd (Nov 18, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> So you haven't gone and looked at the legal on your iPhone in order to consider it yourself?
> 
> FYI: I'm following the legal agreement up, taking advice and so on in order to determine if it's a standard agreement or not. Because it could be a story. Why don't you take a look and see for yourself, rather than being such a snide cunt?



But which bits specifically concern you...? The Touch's is "No fiddling with this, or else. Definitely no sharing the iStuff. And we weren't joking about the no-fiddling with it. Oh, and we had some help from our friends..."


----------



## paolo (Nov 18, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> But which bits specifically concern you...? The Touch's is "No fiddling with this, or else. Definitely no sharing the iStuff. And we weren't joking about the no-fiddling with it. Oh, and we had some help from our friends..."



I can't find anything in it from Apple or O2. So in that sense it seems to have less than the touch, based on what you are saying ( the no hack clauses come up somewhere else if I remember rightly - possibly during the iTunes activation process.)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 18, 2007)

This doesn't sound good although to be fair it's hard to judge because no comparison has been done with other phones:



> The result is this video, in which Farrow was able to take complete control of an iPhone and demonstrate the ability to eavesdrop on conversations, intercept voice mail and e-mail, and upload nefarious software programs. “Physical access to an iPhone,” Farrow points out, “is not required.” Although in Farrow’s demo the Wi-Fi was turned on — common enough for iPhone users, since AT&T’s EDGE network makes Web surfing slow and laborious — Moore says his exploit can work on EDGE, too.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 18, 2007)

Alright
Here's the agreement.
http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iphone.pdf


----------



## jæd (Nov 18, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> This doesn't sound good although to be fair it's hard to judge because no comparison has been done with other phones:





> Also, Apple has *since fixed this security hole* in the iPhone’s latest firmware, but that doesn’t guarantee that other exploits won’t be found.



I'm guessing part of the delay for the SDK is they're trying to avoid running as root as normal...


----------



## jæd (Nov 18, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Alright
> Here's the agreement.
> http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iphone.pdf



But which bit are you concerned with...?


----------



## paolo (Nov 19, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> I'm guessing part of the delay for the SDK is they're trying to avoid running as root as normal...



Have to concur with you there. Running everything as root is a 'bad thing', and something that will probably take a considerable effort in the software side. Hence the big delay - both for (significant) updates, and the SDK.


----------



## paolo (Nov 19, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> But which bit are you concerned with...?



That's what I'm interested in too. There's way too much of the 3rd party stuff to work through.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 19, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> Oh, fuck off.



I expect that is what the staff were thinking about you.


----------



## dogmatique (Nov 19, 2007)

Another little nasty: Apple appear to be collecting IMEI data from every iPhone and sending browsing habits back to Cupertino:

http://uneasysilence.com/archive/2007/11/12686/


----------



## jæd (Nov 19, 2007)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> Another little nasty: Apple appear to be collecting IMEI data from every iPhone and sending browsing habits back to Cupertino:
> 
> http://uneasysilence.com/archive/2007/11/12686/



Not really... They're only sending the IMEI data for the widget data look-ups. I wonder if that means the widgets won't work on a Touch...?


----------



## rocketman (Nov 19, 2007)

It's this bit to look for , though other such agreements are around.

When you interact with Apple, we may collect personal information relevant to the situation, such as your name, mailing address, phone number, email address, and contact preferences; your credit card information and information about the Apple products you own, such as their serial numbers and date of purchase; and information relating to a support or service issue.

Now I know legal agreements are a bit dull for the 21st century theatre of the spectacle, but let's just take a look at the agreements governing use of Windows Mobile and Palm as well, shall we?

How much data are these people collecting, and how much protection against abuse of such data do we have?


----------



## jæd (Nov 19, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> How much data are these people collecting, and how much protection against abuse of such data do we have?



Well... Doesn't the agreement tell you which bits they are collecting it...? And I'd of guessed that the Data Protection Act covers most of it... They seem fairly up-front about, so I wouldn't worry too much.  

You could try wearing a tin-foil hat while using the phone, but I'm guessing it might interfere with its operation...


----------



## rocketman (Nov 19, 2007)

Don't get me wrong. I have an iPhone, and really like it. i use a Mac. But being a convinced Apple user (because I generally think its products are best in class) doesn't mean I'm happy to allow unfettered access to my personal information to that company. Now - the agreement excerpt above doesn't define the data collected in any definitive way, because it uses the classic loophole: "such as". That means the data collected isn't confined to that which is listed. 

I'm not convinced Apple is the only one doing this. After all, we live in an age of black boxes at the ISPs, who must keep your traffic for (one or two years); Google caching search terms, and so on...but it's probably not so silly to be wary about the information heading out there, as the more of it that is out there, the easier it becomes to put it all together.

Privacy and notions of civil liberty appear subsumed, however.


----------



## paolo (Nov 19, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Not really... They're only sending the IMEI data for the widget data look-ups. I wonder if that means the widgets won't work on a Touch...?



Interesting stuff.

Recently there was an outage, where everyone lost access to some/all widgets. This suggests that - even if the data gets provided by third parties - there is some kind of central hand off.

What is likely is that apple have not made these things a free for all web service. Using the imei would be a way doing that - albeit a bit unsophisticated.

This is likely/confirmed to cover weather and stock lookups. But also, given the behaviour reported, covers youtube too.

It doesn't alarm me personally, but it's good to know. Apple should make a statement to confirm what they do/don't record via this mechanism.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 19, 2007)

*O2 claims iPhone is its fastest-selling device -- ever*

Some one in the press department at O2 is looking for a big christmas bonus:



> Neither O2 nor Carphone Warehouse are interested in disclosing exact numbers regarding the opening week of iPhone sales in the UK -- a tightlipped tactic some are seeing as a sign that sales failed to meet expectations -- but for what it's worth, O2's got a few positive (albeit vague) things to say about the festivities. CEO of Telefónica O2 Europe Peter Erskine says that the iPhone has been the "fastest-selling device" for O2 ever. "Ever" is a strong word, but it's exactly the one Mr. Erskine chose during O2's most recent earnings call despite rumors that sales were light at retail outlets across the land. Furthermore, he claimed that a full two-thirds of buyers were new to the carrier; conquests from competing carriers are naturally more highly valued than upgrades, so that's a big deal if it holds true. British readers, what's your take? Is the buzz at a rolling boil, or have you yet to see an iPhone used in public?


----------



## perplexis (Nov 19, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> Not had too many problems with windows mobile.  I thought it wasn't a bad looking device - my friends like the look of it.


Sorry- I meant the device is good looking, but WM6 is an aesthetic crime.


----------



## paolo (Nov 19, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Some one in the press department at O2 is looking for a big christmas bonus:



A substance free article? Full of nudge nudge but avoids making any actual point.

Unless they are saying O2 are lying during an investment briefing. Which would be a criminal offence.


----------



## editor (Nov 19, 2007)

I've only seen one iPhone in the wild and that was one being ostentatiously worn around the neck of some utter dick in the West End.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 19, 2007)

I've seen three so far on the tube...


----------



## paolo (Nov 19, 2007)

Even if - and it's a big if - Apple get the same market share here as in the US, you won't see them very often. I think they are now at 0.5 % share over there.

And wearing one round your neck is indeed tossy


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 19, 2007)

The day after they were released, I saw them all over central London.  Including seeing a very old woman with one.


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 19, 2007)

perplexis said:
			
		

> Sorry- I meant the device is good looking, but WM6 is an aesthetic crime.



You're not wrong.

After playing with it a lot, I think the interface could do with a lot of work.  I'm still relatively happy.


----------



## paolo (Nov 19, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> The day after they were released, I saw them all over central London.  Including seeing a very old woman with one.



Bizarre... what were people doing with them, from what you could see? Talking / doing something with the screen (e.g. browsing, map reading) or just carrying in show-off mode?


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 19, 2007)

Calling people and playing around with it (possibly web browsing).  I was wandering around Oxford Circus, Covent Garden, and Tottenham Court Road.


----------



## editor (Nov 19, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> Calling people and playing around with it (possibly web browsing).  I was wandering around Oxford Circus, Covent Garden, and Tottenham Court Road.


Sounds like they're showing off to me.  If I'm on the phone in the street, you'd be hard pressed to see I was using my mighty Treo and I can't think why anyone would conspicuously wander about web browsing.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 20, 2007)

Hey - let's face it, the last place you want to ostentatiously carry an iPhone is London, particularly in the capital's late night crime hotspots - if you don't see one in someone's hands, that just means they are being sensible, doesn't mean they ain't selling.


----------



## Melinda (Nov 20, 2007)

How are you with letting people have a go on you shiney new phone?

Im talking colleagues and friends here, not randoms on the tube. 

How long do you give them  before you start getting jittery and wanting your shiney sleek machine back?


----------



## fogbat (Nov 20, 2007)

Two of my colleagues have them.

The interface is beautiful


----------



## editor (Nov 20, 2007)

I had a long go on the iPhone's keyboard today. And hated it.

I could barely type a thing on it without making mistakes unless I went really slow.

Seeing as I need to do a lot of typing on my phone, the iPhone's definitely out for me unless they come up with a hardware keyboard version.


----------



## Melinda (Nov 20, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I had a long go on the iPhone's keyboard today. And hated it.
> 
> I could barely type a thing on it without making mistakes unless I went really slow.
> 
> Seeing as I need to do a lot of typing on my phone, the iPhone's definitely out for me unless they come up with a hardware keyboard version.


*points* you have fat fingers!

Sadly I have them too. I took 4 attempts to type Waterloo into the tfl journey planner last week. But Im getting better.


----------



## rubbershoes (Nov 20, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I've only seen one iPhone in the wild and that was one being ostentatiously worn around the neck of some utter dick in the West End.




not seen any so far in my sleepy devon village


----------



## editor (Nov 20, 2007)

Melinda said:
			
		

> *points* you have fat fingers!
> 
> Sadly I have them too. I took 4 attempts to type Waterloo into the tfl journey planner last week. But Im getting better.


No - my fingers are rather slender and I usually get on fine with wee keyboards  - I've typed out 1,000 word articles on my little Treo without too much bother -  but I couldn't get on with the iPhone's _at all._


----------



## Melinda (Nov 20, 2007)

Check you out defending your feminine fingers!

 I had the same problem.


----------



## paolo (Nov 20, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I had a long go on the iPhone's keyboard today. And hated it.
> 
> I could barely type a thing on it without making mistakes unless I went really slow.
> 
> Seeing as I need to do a lot of typing on my phone, the iPhone's definitely out for me unless they come up with a hardware keyboard version.



It's better when you type at full speed and ignore whether you've made accurate hits - i.e. trust the autocorrect.

It won't match hard key though - and besides, it doesn't have the PDA features you've got on a Treo or Blackberry.

My prediction: There will never be a hard key version of the iPhone.

They would either have to sacrifice screen size or device size. Using almost the whole face, the screen is just about at the level where you really can browse (I can read Urban forums without zooming). Conversely, the device is big, but just about acceptable.

The only chance of hard key, I can think of, is if they do some kind of PDA device... i.e. aiming at a different market than the iPhone, that might tolerate a bigger package.


----------



## editor (Nov 20, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> It's better when you type at full speed and ignore whether you've made accurate hits - i.e. trust the autocorrect.


I tried that, but "hello" kept coming out like "jwkki."

I'm sure some will get along with its keyboard just dandy, but it's not for me.


----------



## paolo (Nov 20, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> No - my fingers are rather slender and I usually get on fine with wee keyboards  - I've typed out 1,000 word articles on my little Treo without too much bother -  but I couldn't get on with the iPhone's _at all._



Hats off to you! I wouldn't attempt 1000 words on the iPhone. It's okay for a hundred or so. Enough to post on these goddam forum sites


----------



## paolo (Nov 20, 2007)

I just tested myself... I managed 25 wpm, with one uncorrected mistake (a missed space between words).

S'okay I think.


----------



## jæd (Nov 21, 2007)

Playing with the iPhone keyboard I find practise is handy... Right at the moment, unless Palm do something interesting with the new GSM Palm coming out I might get one come February, and as long as its opened up sufficiently...

Though I'm also very interested in the new Goolgle/Android phones, but they're not until a good portion into 2008...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 21, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I could barely type a thing on it without making mistakes unless I went really slow.



Seriously? I managed it drunk ok with only a few mistakes!


----------



## editor (Nov 21, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Seriously? I managed it drunk ok with only a few mistakes!


I like to type fast, and the iPhone was all over the place when I tried to input at Palm-like speed. Even when I slowed right down, it needed far more attention to the screen than I'm used to.

Typing on a glass screen isn't very attractive either - I didn't much like the virtual keyboards on the  Sony Clie TH55 or HTC Touch either for the same reasons.


----------



## editor (Nov 21, 2007)

You can now officially buy an unlocked iPhone in Germany for the truly ludicrous price of €999 euros. That's about £720!!!

LOL! Talk about overpriced! What kind of mug would pay that kind of money?!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071121/tc_nm/tmobile_apple_iphone_dc


----------



## jæd (Nov 21, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You can now officially buy an unlocked iPhone in Germany for the truly ludicrous price of €999 euros. That's about £720!!!



How does that compare to unlocked iPhones to France and Denmark...?


----------



## editor (Nov 21, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> How does that compare to unlocked iPhones to France and Denmark...?


You can't legally get them anywhere else.


----------



## jæd (Nov 21, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You can't get them anywhere else.



Oops... For some reason I thought they were already selling Denmark. See from http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/17/orange-to-sell-unlocked-iphone-in-france/ that it will be €999....


----------



## Badgers (Nov 21, 2007)

I played with one today and was impressed. 

Will see what Sony Ericsson come up in reply with as I have a while before I need to upgrade.


----------



## paolo (Nov 21, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You can now officially buy an unlocked iPhone in Germany for the truly ludicrous price of €999 euros. That's about £720!!!
> 
> LOL! Talk about overpriced! What kind of mug would pay that kind of money?!
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071121/tc_nm/tmobile_apple_iphone_dc



For some people in existing contracts with other providers it could work out better than the locked one, overall. It's quite borderline though. One would assume the price is intended to steer people towards the locked one, but still allow for selling in another eu country where (perhaps?) they will be forced to sell unlocked only.

Will people pay twice the price of an N95, in this scenario? Some will I'm sure, but at the moment the kickback/subsidy system is probably generating alot of sales that wouldn't happen if people could see the true price of the phone.

(and I think this actually applies to all phones. People are getting frequent upgrades, not because they need them, but because they are 'free'. This model is wrong for so many reasons... But maybe that's another thread  )


----------



## rocketman (Nov 22, 2007)

Clearly one of the first third party peripherals that should appear could be a fold out keyboard (full size) that connects via the iPhone dock. I can't see third party firms letting that one go past, as for people like Ed who want to write lengthy reports, that would be the way.


----------



## Gromit (Nov 22, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Clearly one of the first third party peripherals that should appear could be a fold out keyboard (full size) that connects via the iPhone dock. I can't see third party firms letting that one go past, as for people like Ed who want to write lengthy reports, that would be the way.


 
It never really happened for the PsP despite Sony writing software to support it.


----------



## Gromit (Nov 22, 2007)

Badgers said:
			
		

> I played with one today and was impressed.
> 
> Will see what Sony Ericsson come up in reply with as I have a while before I need to upgrade.


 
Touchscreen walkman phone due soon according to one site I've read.


----------



## editor (Nov 22, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Clearly one of the first third party peripherals that should appear could be a fold out keyboard (full size) that connects via the iPhone dock. I can't see third party firms letting that one go past, as for people like Ed who want to write lengthy reports, that would be the way.


Kinda defeats the object of a smartphone if you've also got to lug a separate keyboard around.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 22, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Kinda defeats the object of a smartphone if you've also got to lug a separate keyboard around.


There's loads of these things for palm and windows mobile, so there's obviously a market.


----------



## editor (Nov 22, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> There's loads of these things for palm and windows mobile, so there's obviously a market.


Sure there is. But for the price/size, I'd expect the iPhone to be usable for my needs without having to lug a separate keyboard about.

I've actually already got a fold out keyboard that I bought from my touchscreen Clie Palm PDA, but I've found no use for it since I bought the Treo.

I love the slick interface of the iPhone, but the lack of a hardware keyboard (and the hefty price) means that I'm never going to feel the iLove, no matter how wow-wee the eye candy.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 22, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Kinda defeats the object of a smartphone if you've also got to lug a separate keyboard around.



I dunno some smart folk thought having a dumbed down laptop was needed for the Treo so why not a small keyboard for the iPhone?


----------



## editor (Nov 22, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I dunno some smart folk thought having a dumbed down laptop was needed for the Treo so why not a small keyboard for the iPhone?


*tries to find the relevance.

*fails.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 22, 2007)

Ed in full of fail shocker!


----------



## jæd (Nov 22, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I dunno some smart folk thought having a dumbed down laptop was needed for the Treo so why not a small keyboard for the iPhone?



What...? You reckon Apple should produce some kind of basic laptop thing that communicates via bluetooth with an iPhone to make a cut-price laptop for business travellors...?

Never work...!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 22, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> What...? You reckon Apple should produce some kind of basic laptop thing that communicates via bluetooth with an iPhone to make a cut-price laptop for business travellors...?
> 
> Never work...!


----------



## rocketman (Nov 22, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> It never really happened for the PsP despite Sony writing software to support it.



With PSP it's a problem of perception, it's a games machine, and all the attempts to squeeze it into something that's a productivity device are a little retrospective, even the mobile learning initiatives.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 22, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> What...? You reckon Apple should produce some kind of basic laptop thing that communicates via bluetooth with an iPhone to make a cut-price laptop for business travellors...?
> 
> Never work...!



Nah, an ultramobile Mac would do this, possibly a touchscreen tablet.
>>Jumps in time machine to January 15 2008
"Oh what about Apple's new ultramobile Mac?"


----------



## Gromit (Nov 22, 2007)

I just went into a Carphone Wharehouse cause i saw they had an iPhone display.

Had a 10 minute play.

It was alright but it didn't make me want to go out and spend extremely silly amounts of dosh on it just cause i could touch the screen. A screen which was just covered in greasy finger prints.


----------



## 43mhz (Nov 22, 2007)

Talk of a 3G version coming out in Spain/Italy next May

http://blog.sevenclick.com/2007/11/09/confirmed-telefonica-spain-expects-3g-iphone-on-may/

If they release a 3G version in Italy, preferably with Tim, I'll probably get one.


----------



## editor (Nov 22, 2007)

43mhz said:
			
		

> Talk of a 3G version coming out in Spain/Italy next May
> 
> http://blog.sevenclick.com/2007/11/09/confirmed-telefonica-spain-expects-3g-iphone-on-may/
> 
> If they release a 3G version in Italy, preferably with Tim, I'll probably get one.


Be interesting to see how the battery copes and what kind of hefty price/contract they slap on it.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 23, 2007)

720 quid will buy me a lot of hardware that takes a SIM that can do what the apple does better just not in the same size format.

I can get once of these for instance

http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.asp...1012&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11012&InMerch=1

Not massively powered but at 980g its pretty small. I can imagine that its a lot more power than a iPhone and can do a lot more.  I think Apple have taken this revenue idea a bit too far. 

Surely just a mass market device in Europe would have been a better idea? 200 quid for a nice phone with its accomplished sound and video with a bit of web might have given Sony and Nokia a right kicking in the market.


----------



## jæd (Nov 23, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> Not massively powered but at 980g its pretty small.



Thats just under a kilo...! Not exactly small...!


----------



## Poi E (Nov 23, 2007)

We've been testing one in the office (US cracked) and it's quite nice. Good picture quality for movies, too. Gets awfully mucky though. The women in the office absolutely love it. Bit big though.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 23, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Thats just under a kilo...! Not exactly small...!



For a fully featured laptop its pretty small.


----------



## tarannau (Nov 23, 2007)

Yep, but that's a really duff comparison though isn't it?

One's a small, portable device that you can (just about) pop in a pocket, the other weighs the same as a bag of sugar.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 23, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Be interesting to see how the battery copes and what kind of hefty price/contract they slap on it.



Well, iPod started pricey and grew cheaper, same will happen with iPhone, but I'm not really arsed at discussing that - if you don't want to pay that much, then buy something else, after all, who really cares.

But the 3G battery life thing, that's interesting, as I seem to recall hearing that the Extended Battery Life Working Group (a trans industry group) is close to releasing a new 3G battery type spec/version that is less demanding on power.

If my recollection is correct (and it is, vaguely), this will report in mid-spring next year. If my hunch is right, this means a 3G iPhone with decent battery life should technically be possible using this new standard, and May could suit the release (assuming the group has already or is close to already setting the base hardware requirements), as any software improvements could be applied at manufacture, once hardware (for 3G iPhones) had been stocked up to spec.

I can't recall where I heard about this, I either read it, got told it, or had an email, but can't dig it out.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 23, 2007)

Personally I'd rather keep them all seperate. I mean, why would I want a PDA/typing device if I'm out in town shopping or clubbing or something. I'd want as slim a device as possible. I'm not going to be web surfing. I'd also prefer something under £100 if I lose it/get mugged.

Conversely, if I'm going away on holiday, on a plane/train or whatever..I'd like something small and light to do web surfing, blogging, skype-ing, typing etc which doesn't weigh a ton when you're carrying round lots of other things.

I would prefer something like this:

Nokia 6300 - simple and easy as possible to call/txt when out on the move. £79 approx 

Asus Eee PC 4G - Currently retailing for under £175 in the US. Does web/skype/full keyboard/inbuilt webcam ethernet etc etc.










So, all that for approx £250. Much more preferable to spending £800 on an iPhone IMHO


----------



## Gromit (Nov 23, 2007)

skyscraper101 said:
			
		

> So, all that for approx £250. Much more preferable to spending £800 on an iPhone IMHO


 
I totally agree. However logic hasn't stopped me from going out and being a twat and buying an iPhone today. OMG I must be mad but I did it anyway.

I kept saying i wouldn't and its too much money for what you get but i tried the much cheaper N95 and discovered I didn't really like it that much.


----------



## tarannau (Nov 23, 2007)

To be fair though, the N95 is a bit shit by any measure.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 23, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Yep, but that's a really duff comparison though isn't it?
> 
> One's a small, portable device that you can (just about) pop in a pocket, the other weighs the same as a bag of sugar.



No not really, its in the same price bracket as the unlocked iPhone, has a full web browser, touch screen, etc etc.

OK if size is a problem then it loses but I know which of the two I'd get if someone gave me the cash to spend.


----------



## paolo (Nov 23, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> But the 3G battery life thing, that's interesting, as I seem to recall hearing that the Extended Battery Life Working Group (a trans industry group) is close to releasing a new 3G battery type spec/version that is less demanding on power.



There isn't anything special about 3G that would lead to a '3G Battery'.

Maybe you are thinking of the new low power 3G chip from Broadcom - it was announced just over a month ago, and this is probably what Apple will be using.

But overall, I think the gist of what you are saying is right... I'd be surprised if Apple, having said they stayed away from 3G for batter life reasons, replace the current model with something with materially less run time.


----------



## jæd (Nov 24, 2007)

skyscraper101 said:
			
		

> Personally I'd rather keep them all seperate. I mean, why would I want a PDA/typing device if I'm out in town shopping or clubbing or something. I'd want as slim a device as possible. I'm not going to be web surfing. I'd also prefer something under £100 if I lose it/get mugged.



Thats kind of what I do now... I have a "clubbing" phone thats a ancient Nokia that I'm not concerned about losing, and my Treo for most days...

My laptop usually only comes with if I'm going to be away somewhere for a while. At work I tend to also use my Treo for basic trouble-shooting. Its not ideal but I don't like lugging my Powerbook around... (And its why any iPhone I got would need to run 3rd party apps...)


----------



## Gromit (Nov 24, 2007)

*Missing Features*

Right now i've had a good play i still like my new iPhone but am disappointed that some basic features are missing.

SMS
No picture messaging. You can niether send nor recieve picture messages. Instead they go to and O2 website which is quite frankly crap.

No message forwarding. Send me a joke and the chain ends with me. I guess it stops me from using up all my free txts and having to pay extra. i.e. they are missing out on money here the idiots.

No multiple recipients. If I want to send the same message to 3 different people i have to type it out three times. Once again a money loser.

Camera
Can't create additional folders for me to seperate my pics out. I don't want to show people every pic i have on the phone when showing it off.
Flash.

Weather
I don't live in London but in Cardiff thickos. Waste of time for me.

Ringtones
I can't add my own.
Vollume ain't brill either.

Hope some of these will be sorted out by firware updates at some stage.


----------



## Gromit (Nov 24, 2007)

Argh because iPhone makes good use of albulm covers I'm getting iTunes to DL them. Unfortunately not all my tracks are properly labeled and so it can't fetch them all.

So guess who has the lovely task of adding the Albulm name to 308 tracks with the help of Wiki.

The fact that some my track never made it to albulm so i have to find how Itunes calls it doesn't help e.g. "A Whiter Shade of Pale (Live) - Single"

Or how about funky titles like "Blade Runner (Soundtrack from the Motion Picture)" or it doesn't work


----------



## untethered (Nov 24, 2007)

iPhone crowds? Don't believe the hype:

http://www.dialaphone.co.uk/blog/?p=750

A nice antidote to the Apple reality forcefield.


----------



## jæd (Nov 24, 2007)

untethered said:
			
		

> iPhone crowds? Don't believe the hype:
> 
> http://www.dialaphone.co.uk/blog/?p=750
> 
> A nice antidote to the Apple reality forcefield.



Forgive me for being a conspiraloon, but wasn't the launch at 18.02...? Wouldn't have the sun go down by then...? So some (undated) pictures of empty Mobile Phone shops in random locations prove *what*...?

So who was expecting crowds of hungry iPhone fan;s in Wimbledon at around 2pm in the afternoon


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 25, 2007)

> _"British iPhone users, who bought the Apple phones when they went on sale in England on Nov. 9, are reporting persistent problems with signal strength on O2, the UK's only iPhone service provider. The complaints started only 2 days later. InfoWeek blogger Alex Wolfe says there's a debate as to whether O2 or the iPhone is at fault; it appears to be the handset, which is unusual since US users haven't reported similar problems. Some 02 customers report that getting a replacement phone fixes things; others have had to do a software restore back to version 1.1.2 of the iPhone software."_


 Link

First of this I've heard...any of our resident Urban75 iPhone owners had any probs like this?


----------



## rocketman (Nov 25, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Right now i've had a good play i still like my new iPhone but am disappointed that some basic features are missing.



Some of these are fixable, others disappointing.

SMS
No picture messaging. You can niether send nor recieve picture messages. Instead they go to and O2 website which is quite frankly crap.
Yeah, that's rubbish - and no video, why? And why can't you beam contacts using Bluetooth, like every other phone does.

No message forwarding. Send me a joke and the chain ends with me. I guess it stops me from using up all my free txts and having to pay extra. i.e. they are missing out on money here the idiots.
Silly

No multiple recipients. If I want to send the same message to 3 different people i have to type it out three times. Once again a money loser.
Short-sighted

Camera
Can't create additional folders for me to seperate my pics out. I don't want to show people every pic i have on the phone when showing it off.
Flash.
Hmm, there may be a workaround

Weather
I don't live in London but in Cardiff thickos. Waste of time for me.
Ah - this one is fixable - click on the small 'i' in the bottom right corner of the screen, a new screen pops-up: hit the + button at top left, and you can search for a city and get its weather. I got Cardiff.

Ringtones
I can't add my own.
Vollume ain't brill either.

You can download this software that lets you pop new tunes in as ringtones
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/utilities/itoner/

Hope some of these will be sorted out by firware updates at some stage.
Yes also here that hope, but there are other phones. For all that, I don't miss 3G much, but there are criticisms.


----------



## Gromit (Nov 25, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> And why can't you beam contacts using Bluetooth, like every other phone does.
> 
> Weather
> 
> ...


 
Ah thanks for that. My weather is now changed and I'm about to look at that ringtone software (ah damn its Mac only, no good to me  thanks anyways).

Good point re bluetooth. It has bluetooth else how could you use the bluetooth headset. But unlike other phones you can't use it to bluetooth ringtones, pics etc. to other phones for free.

So another missing feature.


----------



## funkydita (Nov 25, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Ah thanks for that. My weather is now changed and I'm about to look at that ringtone software (ah damn its Mac only, no good to me  thanks anyways).



Don't know if it works the same on a PC but with the latest itunes on a Mac import your own ringtones (with no hacking just a bit of a workaround).  You need to edit a track to 30 seconds, or just under, with music editing software (I used garageband on a Mac but I think you can find a few free ones on the net, try versiontracker.com).  Then, convert your edited track to an aac file in itunes, locate the file, change the extension from M4a to M4r, reimport and it should appear under the ringtones tab in itunes and can then be synced over.


----------



## paolo (Nov 25, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Link
> 
> First of this I've heard...any of our resident Urban75 iPhone owners had any probs like this?



No probs here. Not heard of this issue. From reading some of the discussion, it might be caused by having a duff battery.


----------



## Gromit (Nov 25, 2007)

Top iTunes Tip: 

If you are trying to DL the Artwork for The Complete Led Zepplin apparently you have to spell them as Led Zeplin (one P) under artists Grrrr  Otherwise it won't recognise the Album.

...And then change it back to the correct spelling afterwards if you are anal like me.

God the ages wasted working that out but i refused to let it beat me. I was having the artwork if it killed me.

I still have 34 album covers missing as iTunes is funny as hell when it comes to soundtracks and old compilations.

My entire sunday and part of saturday night has been spent just sorting out my iTunes Library for the sake of my iPhone pretty album covers features.


----------



## jæd (Nov 26, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Top iTunes Tip:
> 
> If you are trying to DL the Artwork for The Complete Led Zepplin apparently you have to spell them as Led Zeplin (one P) under artists Grrrr  Otherwise it won't recognise the Album.
> 
> ...



Why not just add the artwork manually...?  Much quicker that mucking around with vaugeries of iTunes...

1) Download suitable artwork (often from Amazon)
2) Select all tunes in a album
3) Press "Get Info" for them
4) Double click on Artwork box
5) Select your artwork you got in 1
6) Press "Open", a,d then "OK", and watch it add the artwork to selected tracks...


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Nov 26, 2007)

I just bought my iPhone, but can't activate it - apparently O2 need more time to review my application.  

It looks very nice, though.


----------



## editor (Nov 26, 2007)

Looks like the sales figures are really going to disappoint Apple with just O2 activating just 26,500 iPhones since its launch two weeks ago and new research showing that just 2 per cent of UK consumers have put the phone on their Christmas lists:
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2204312/consumers-turned-expensive


----------



## Crispy (Nov 26, 2007)

Not surprised in the slightest. It's far too expensive.


----------



## jæd (Nov 26, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Looks like the sales figures are really going to disappoint Apple with just O2 activating just 26,500 iPhones since its launch two weeks ago and new research showing that just 2 per cent of UK consumers have put the phone on their Christmas lists:
> http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2204312/consumers-turned-expensive



Isn't there a quote somewhere that Apple are just aiming a market share of 1%...?


----------



## editor (Nov 26, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Isn't there a quote somewhere that Apple are just aiming a market share of 1%...?


I think you need to do some maths if you think that 26,500 comes even remotely close to a market share of 1% (where was this quote?)


----------



## jæd (Nov 26, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I think you need to do some maths if you think that 26,500 comes even remotely close to a market share of 1% (where was this quote?)



I'm not the "expert" on the iPhone, am I...?  ( http://www.ipodobserver.com/story/32847, but this is global)


----------



## paolo (Nov 26, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Looks like the sales figures are really going to disappoint Apple with just O2 activating just 26,500 iPhones since its launch two weeks ago and new research showing that just 2 per cent of UK consumers have put the phone on their Christmas lists:
> http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2204312/consumers-turned-expensive



If there has been any disappointment, it would have been on the US launch. UK numbers have been roughly in line with the US, all things considered.

Add to this the massive profit they make per unit. I'd estimate it is at least 5 times what Nokia make on the N95. Perhaps Nokia sell 5 times as many, per day - but on the anecdotal evidence, I doubt it.

But leaving my speculation aside, bear in mind that the investment analysts reaction, having pored through Apple's numbers, have given increased expectations for Apple's stock price. Why? They've found an entry which is (they deduce) the iPhone kickback revenue stream. And they like what they see.

So, overall, I don't think Apple are disappointed at the moment. Quite the opposite I expect.


----------



## editor (Nov 26, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> IAdd to this the massive profit they make per unit. I'd estimate it is at least 5 times what Nokia make on the N95. Perhaps Nokia sell 5 times as many, per day - but on the anecdotal evidence, I doubt it.


Nokia outsells Apple by a truly _enormous _margin in all areas.


----------



## paolo (Nov 26, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Nokia outsells Apple by a truly _enormous _margin in all areas.



I meant N95 vs iPhone. Not Nokia's sales of a wide range of handsets, compared with Apple's sales of - err - computers?


----------



## editor (Nov 26, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> I meant N95 vs iPhone. Not Nokia's sales of a wide range of handsets, compared with Apple's sales of - err - computers?


Why are you only comparing the iPhone to the N95? 

The Nokia has quite a few smartphones that out-perform the iPhone in terms of features and functions.


----------



## paolo (Nov 26, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Why are you only comparing the iPhone to the N95



The N95 is the one that is often cited as a comparison. Perhaps Nokia are shifting heaps of the others, but my impression is they aren't.

I'll stick by my original opinion though - Apple won't be disappointed by the UK numbers so far.

O2 on the other hand I think will not make the 200,000 they have predicted by early January.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 26, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Nokia outsells Apple by a truly _enormous _margin in all areas.



Do you mean profit margin, or number of sales?
And do you include operating systems, desktops and laptops in your analysis? Or when you say 'all areas' do you actually mean 'one area'?
In any case, why do you hate the iPhone so much you take your valuable time to diss it? Go and play in your Palm or Nokia forum...oh, there isn't a (popular) one...


----------



## asbestos (Nov 27, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Do you mean profit margin, or number of sales?
> And do you include operating systems, desktops and laptops in your analysis? Or when you say 'all areas' do you actually mean 'one area'?
> In any case, why do you hate the iPhone so much you take your valuable time to diss it? Go and play in your Palm or Nokia forum...oh, there isn't a (popular) one...



A reasonable discussion on this topic with that bloke is a thorough waste of time my friend.


----------



## asbestos (Nov 27, 2007)




----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> In any case, why do you hate the iPhone so much you take your valuable time to diss it? Go and play in your Palm or Nokia forum...oh, there isn't a (popular) one...


Why on earth should stating the fact that Nokia is the world's biggest mobile phone manufacturer upset you so much and spark this bizarre outburst?

You're really quite odd at times, you know.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 27, 2007)

asbestos said:
			
		

>



Yeah any thread about Apple tends to go that way...


----------



## tarannau (Nov 27, 2007)

Oh come on, Apple's achievements with their first phone are creditable. In the first month, with their first phone product - overpriced and underfeatured in the eyes of a few - they became the top selling smartphone in the US, taking 1.8% of the entire US handsales market and equalling sales of the LG chocolate, the leading (non smartphone) seller in the US

More info from Reuters here http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSL0432369320070904, but for Apple to come in and comfortably overtake such entrenched and established competitors is pretty impressive. If I was Steve Jobs, knowing that I managed to outstrip Blackberry and the entire Palm portfolio's sales with one new product, I wouldn't be too discouraged by the whole affair.


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Why on earth should stating the fact that Nokia is the world's biggest mobile phone manufacturer upset you so much and spark this bizarre outburst?
> 
> You're really quite odd at times, you know.



Why on earth should a thread about a gizmo that you have no intention of ever owning upset you so much?

You're really quite odd at times, you know.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> Why on earth should a thread about a gizmo that you have no intention of ever owning upset you so much?


Oh look! It's a smartarse with a back-firing attempt at being clever!

But where have I expressed anything even remotely suggesting that I was "upset"?

No, don't bother replying, You've made a big enough dick of yourself with your pathetic unprovoked attack as it is.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Oh come on, Apple's achievements with their first phone are creditable. In the first month, with their first phone product - overpriced and underfeatured in the eyes of a few - they became the top selling smartphone in the US, taking 1.8% of the entire US handsales market and equalling sales of the LG chocolate, the leading (non smartphone) seller in the US


Apple's sales in the US were incredible - although they did benefit from one of the biggest and most sustained hype campaigns ever seen for a product.

But in the UK - which is what I was talking about - they haven't come anywhere near matching that kind of impact despite their best attempts to crank up the hyperbole-o-meter to 11.

FYI:


> US: Top five handset manufacturers’ third quarter 2007 share of units sold:
> Motorola        31%
> LG     17%
> Samsung     16%
> ...


----------



## asbestos (Nov 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> where have I expressed anything even remotely suggesting that I was "upset"?
> 
> No, don't bother replying, You've made a big enough dick of yourself with your pathetic unprovoked attack as it is.



"upset" isn't the word.


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> with your pathetic unprovoked attack, etc, etc, etc .





You'll never be accused of being unpredictable.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 27, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> You'll never be accused of being unpredictable.




So little to say so much...


----------



## Crispy (Nov 27, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> You'll never be accused of being unpredictable.


Back up that accusation!


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Nov 27, 2007)

I don't know if it's been posted before, but I've just been playing with mine and realised that the bluetooth is pretty much disabled on them!  

You can use bluetooth headsets with it 

BUT

you can't transfer files onto it (pics etc) or off it using bluetooth, and you can't sync your addressbook and calendars via bluetooth! 

they are so paranoid about people putting 3rd party stuff on it, that the iphone is 

wait for it

THE IPHONE IS LESS COMPATIBLE WITH MY MAC POWERBOOK THAN MY SONY ERRICSSON!

What the fuck are they thinking?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 27, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Back up that accusation!


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 27, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> What the fuck are they thinking?



Bizzare isn't it?

I really think they've lost the plot a bit with it.


----------



## stdPikachu (Nov 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> But in the UK ... they haven't come anywhere near matching that kind of impact despite their best attempts to crank up the hyperbole-o-meter to 11.



Infinite recursion alert! 

TBH I'm quite shocked with some of the usability defects Marius has pointed out (have seen iPhones in action but not actually had the chance to fiddle with one properly yet). Where's the famed, and often justified, Apple-attention-to-detail polish? I can't help but think that Apple has had the telcos hand too much in their pocket when designing this, and it seems obvious to me that the restrictions on rolling your own software is there to protect the carriers from people making their phones too useful, and hence relegating AT&T/O2 to little more that providers of a data pipe, which is almost zero margin. Third party app to load your own ringtones in a phone that requires iTunes to operate?! Mind boggling.

Still though, the browser is probably the best I've used on a smartphone and I'm hoping that iPhone Mk2 is either a bit less of a clulsterfuck or successfully cloned by someone like Nokia (who might actually permit me the luxury of a QWERTY keyboard) - their N800 internet tablet was a pretty good start IMHO, with easy third party development (yay Linux, etc etc) and a not-terrible interface.


----------



## jæd (Nov 27, 2007)

The SDK has been spotted...!



> Some developers are gaining early access to Apple's iPhone and iPod touch software developer kit, according to reliable sources speaking to Electronista. A handful of companies are said to be getting rough versions of the tools to help code more advanced applications than would be possible with the current web-only solution. Exact details of what the kit allows are unknown, though it is confirmed that it produces native programs and somewhat resembles Google's OpenSocial in that it mediates between the programmer and the iPhone operating system.


http://www.electronista.com/articles/07/11/26/iphone.early.sdk/


----------



## Crispy (Nov 27, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> restrictions on rolling your own software is there to protect the carriers from people making their phones too useful, and hence relegating AT&T/O2 to little more that providers of a data pipe, which is almost zero margin.



Nope, it's because in the rush to get the phone ready, they made it so that everything runs as root. No regular user account at all (it's still unix under the gloss). all 3rd party apps running as root = massive fail.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> You'll never be accused of being unpredictable.


What are you trying to achieve here? Are your recent attacks meant as a guide to how needlessly unpleasant you can be for no good reason?

If so, you're doing a grand job. Give yourself a little pat on the back.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> Still though, the browser is probably the best I've used on a smartphone and I'm hoping that iPhone Mk2 is either a bit less of a clulsterfuck or successfully cloned by someone like Nokia (who might actually permit me the luxury of a QWERTY keyboard) - their N800 internet tablet was a pretty good start IMHO, with easy third party development (yay Linux, etc etc) and a not-terrible interface.


The browser is _miles ahead_ of anything I've seen on a mobile and is by far the iPhone's best feature (along with its iPod functionality, whch is also miles ahead of the competition.

Email support isn't up to much though and as a 'smartphone' it lags way behind a host of better featured - and cheaper - phones.


----------



## stdPikachu (Nov 27, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Nope, it's because in the rush to get the phone ready, they made it so that everything runs as root. No regular user account at all (it's still unix under the gloss). all 3rd party apps running as root = massive fail.



Dunno how the flip I missed that. The words nose, spite and face spring to mind, or alternatively "how to make your device ship a week earlier but triple the overall length and cost of the project". Massive failage indeed; you'd think with the chance to do it all from the ground up, everything besides the barest of kernels would be in userspace...?!

Sigh.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Apple's sales in the US were incredible - although they did benefit from one of the biggest and most sustained hype campaigns ever seen for a product.
> 
> But in the UK - which is what I was talking about - they haven't come anywhere near matching that kind of impact despite their best attempts to crank up the hyperbole-o-meter to 11.
> 
> FYI:



They totally mis-understand the UK market. What you have to do here is to launch the product with a bit of advertising and then make it desirable by people telling people that its good.  That winds up the sales in the long term.

If you bombard the UK public with hype, we start to get incredibly cynical and then down right stubborn. People will start to find ways to counteract the hype by pointing out all its failing above anything else.  Being in cynical mode we choose to believe that 1st.  The bar to acceptance as a nice gadget is suddenly much higher.  

I point to David Blain in a box for an example of great british cynicism at its finest.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 27, 2007)

Here's the report: http://www.securityevaluators.com/iphone/exploitingiphone.pdf (pdf)



> Unfortunately, once an iPhone application is breached by an attacker, very little prevents an attacker from obtaining complete control of the system.  All the processes which han-dle network data run with the effective user id of 0, i.e. the superuser.  This means that a compromise of any application gives the abil-ity to run code in the context of that applica-tion which has the highest possible privilege level.  Additionally, no address randomization was used in by the operating system.  This means that each time a process runs, the stack, heap, and executable code is located at precisely the same spot in memory.



Although Leopard now has address randomisation, so maybe they can port that over.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 27, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> I point to David Blain in a box for an example of great british cynicism at its finest.



No cut'n'paste on that either


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> If you bombard the UK public with hype, we start to get incredibly cynical and then down right stubborn. People will start to find ways to counteract the hype by pointing out all its failing above anything else.


That's just about how I react.

I don't like being on the receiving end of expensively produced hype, no matter what the product and the more people tell me how fantastic something is, the more I like to look closer for the flaws under the hyperbolic gloss. 

The attempt to manufacture a US style consumer-stampede 'event' out of the iPhone launch in the UK, complete with store staff hi-fiving and whooping customers was positively _embarrassing_.


----------



## stdPikachu (Nov 27, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Here's the report: http://www.securityevaluators.com/iphone/exploitingiphone.pdf (pdf)
> 
> Although Leopard now has address randomisation, so maybe they can port that over.



Cheers for the PDF, it's a good read. Surprised addresses weren't randomised by default since it's been part of Darwin for fecking aaaages, although it's still spoitable - there's always some process or other that knows what address things are at, obviously, it's just generally harder to snoop the kernel from userspace without superuser access. Having address randomisation without any other protective measures doesn't get you anywhere productive.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 27, 2007)

Gosh that was a fun few pages of reading.
Here's why Apple didn't open up the device for development from day one: Nokia, Palm, Symbian, Microsoft and so on. Now they have hit market with a product their competitors didn't know the insides of, they can open up for devs. Also their OS team was kind of busy trying to do something else as well this year. 

As per the oft-quoted UK marketshare numbers, please don't take numbers from the Register, or unattributed 'sources' as gospel. I've been told to expect numbers in the next financial call. An NOP survey this week offers some insight: of 500 people surveyed, Apple has convinced 2 per cent to buy a phone, the rest won't cos it's too expensive. But 2 per cent of 60 million people's still a lot of phones. 
Does it matter? Only in the sense that Apple's debut here just might make other handset vendors a little less enthralled to the whims of the network operators, who have dictated features until now, so it's only going to mean better products ahead, so that's a good thing.
It reminds me overall of this old joke from the old jokes home:
Gates vs. GM
For all of us who feel only the deepest love and affection for the way computers have enhanced our lives, read on.
At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated,
'If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.'
In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating:
If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:
1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash........
Twice a day.
2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.
3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason you would simply accept this.
4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.
5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would run on only five percent of the roads.
6. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single 'This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation' warning light.
7. The airbag system would ask 'Are you sure?' before deploying.
8. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.
9. Every time a new car was introduced car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.
10. You'd have to press the 'Start' button to turn the engine off.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Does it matter? Only in the sense that Apple's debut here just might make other handset vendors a little less enthralled to the whims of the network operators, who have dictated features until now, so it's only going to mean better products ahead, so that's a good thing.


Except that Apple's deal offers consumers the worst kind of deal - _zero_ choice of network, massively hiked prices and _zero_ choice of contract length, thanks to a compulsory 18 month deal. 

And then there's a massively restricted choice of third party apps, and the opportunity of having your phone bricked if you dare step outside Apple's dictated terms of use and try and use the phone the way you want to.

I can't see what consumers should be thanking Apple for out of all that lot, to be honest.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Except that Apple's deal offers consumers the worst kind of deal - _zero_ choice of network, massively hiked prices and _zero_ choice of contract length, thanks to a compulsory 18 month deal.
> 
> And then there's a massively restricted choice of third party apps, and the opportunity of having your phone bricked if you dare step outside Apple's dictated terms of use and try and use the phone the way you want to.
> 
> I can't see what consumers should be thanking Apple for out of all that lot, to be honest.



And here it is again, the same old arguments trotted out on the iPhone thread. Perhaps we should start a 'like iPhone' and a 'hate iPhone' thread, which you could populate with your one-sided selective cadaver of an argument,


----------



## pinkmonkey (Nov 27, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> They totally mis-understand the UK market. What you have to do here is to launch the product with a bit of advertising and then make it desirable by people telling people that its good.  That winds up the sales in the long term.
> 
> If you bombard the UK public with hype, we start to get incredibly cynical and then down right stubborn. People will start to find ways to counteract the hype by pointing out all its failing above anything else.  Being in cynical mode we choose to believe that 1st.  The bar to acceptance as a nice gadget is suddenly much higher.
> 
> I point to David Blain in a box for an example of great british cynicism at its finest.



They made the mistake of assuming that 'yuurp' can be treated as one big blob and that we are as happy to pay for our phones as the USA is.  
We've got two phones and two datacards for work and get a free upgrade on one of them every six months on average.  Yet when I go to the US, everyone I see has got some kind of a brick (usually an ancient blackberry) _and_ they paid for it.  

I don't care how good the blimmin' phone is, I'm not paying for it.  I spend enough on calls. Sure I'd have one if it was free.  

I agree with the cynicism too. We love to moan about new stuff.


----------



## paolo (Nov 27, 2007)

Sales figures:

In the US the run rate was an average of 13k units per day, over the first 74 days. At the point they reached 1.4 million sales, 250k units were not activated with AT&T. (source: Apple)

In the UK, according to the Register ('reliable channel sources'), O2 had 26,500 activations in the first 14 days. Factoring this up for non activations, gives a sales volume of 17% of the US.

Although Apple have never stated their expectations for UK sales, O2 have said they expect 200k by early jan. This equates to 20% of US sales, comparing with the same period in the US.

As an upside, O2 will have Christmas, as a downside the reaction to the high price has been worse here than the US.

My personal prediction is that they will sell 150k worst case. 200k seems a bit stretchy but is not impossible.


----------



## Gromit (Nov 27, 2007)

Some of you are forgeting Apple's marketing direction.

Yes its expensive. Its meant to be. If it wasn't the most "look how rich i am I spent all this money cause its the in thing" product it wouldn't sell.

Its not about spec or how good it is. Its does it look cool, do i have bragging rights. Thats Apple's market as they know they can't compete against the bigger boys in pure value for money terms so they have gone for the prestiege market.

I took it to work today and I mentioned i had an iPhone and a nearby girl overheard and wanted to see it. In fact demanded i get it out there and then. Was like ooh that soo cool etc. Thats why people buy em. To impress those impressed by how cool it appears to be.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> And here it is again, the same old arguments trotted out on the iPhone thread. Perhaps we should start a 'like iPhone' and a 'hate iPhone' thread, which you could populate with your one-sided selective cadaver of an argument,


Right. So if I dare disagree with your opinion that Apple's massively restrictive terms of use - complete with intentional 'bricking' for consumers who don't comply - aren't a "good thing" for everybody, then that can only mean that I must "hate" the iPhone, yes?

What an utterly bizarre line of logic.


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> What are you trying to achieve here?



Ooh, hang on - just let me check my list of agenda's...  


(& Your bemused polite guy/mardy git routine is a little stale tbh. You might want to write some new material.)


----------



## Pie 1 (Nov 27, 2007)

dp


----------



## Dask (Nov 27, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated,
> 'If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.'
> In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating:
> If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:
> ...



 

Did GM really say that?


----------



## Crispy (Nov 27, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Some of you are forgeting Apple's marketing direction.
> 
> Yes its expensive. Its meant to be. If it wasn't the most "look how rich i am I spent all this money cause its the in thing" product it wouldn't sell.
> 
> ...


And also bear in mind that this was exactly the same market that the original iPod was marketed to.


----------



## paolo (Nov 27, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Thats why people buy em. To impress those impressed by how cool it appears to be.



Eek! Leave me out of that demographic, thanks. 

(tell you what, deleting heaps of text so you can quote selectively, is reeaaally dull on the iPhone. I think I'm going to stick to making aloof comments rather than reply to any specific post  )


----------



## rocketman (Nov 27, 2007)

Dask said:
			
		

> Did GM really say that?



Nah, it's a 'source unknown', but still relatively amusing,


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> (& Your bemused polite guy/mardy git routine is a little stale tbh. You might want to write some new material.)


Here's an idea for you: if you don't like my responses to your pointless little digs, why not try shutting the fuck up and keeping your snidely comments to yourself?

Problem solved.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 27, 2007)

Good for consumers - it's not a black and white issue, it's not about 'Apple or nothing', that closed inverse logic some are trapped in, it's about invoking a competitive market (as the handset is intrinsically better for many users, and accompanied by a deluge of hype), so you can't have missed the competitive deals that are hitting the market now - everything from free iPOds from Orange and others when you buy a handset to cheaper handsets, more well-featured devices - all released as an attempt to secure market share against the cupertino barbarians. This relatively recent quote sums it up fairly well:

"Competition in the UK mobile phone retail market has long been intense but the iPhone's arrival has changed the game," said Bill Schuh, vice president for Europe at Callidus Software. "There is a sales frenzy as retailers try both to lure away customers to the iPhone and provide alternatives to it. It means that daily management of how the salesforce and channel are compensated with incentives has become critical. But unless retailers find a more effective, instantaneous way to do this, they face a bleak Christmas once the dust from the iPhone launch has settled."

The people saying this are people who sell sales performance management software. 

Link below:
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock News/859655/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 27, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> (& Your bemused polite guy/mardy git routine is a little stale tbh. You might want to write some new material.)



He's a top bloke in real life you know...keep in mind the net and forums tend to distort and magnify tone etc.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Good for consumers - it's not a black and white issue, it's not about 'Apple or nothing', that closed inverse logic some are trapped in, it's about invoking a competitive market (as the handset is intrinsically better for many users, and accompanied by a deluge of hype), so you can't have missed the competitive deals that are hitting the market now - everything from free iPOds from Orange and others when you buy a handset to cheaper handsets, more well-featured devices - all released as an attempt to secure market share against the cupertino barbarians. This relatively recent quote sums it up fairly well:


The only good things for consumers coming from the iPhone's launch is _in spite of_ Apple's restrictive practices not _because_ of them.

Surely even you'd admit that if every phone manufacturer adopted Apple's tactics - one network provider only, 18 month contracts only, intentional bricking for unlocking phones, closed system and high prices - it would be disastrous for consumers.

Some smartphones may have become cheaper as a result of the Apple launch, but constant price-slashing, network-jumping offers, freebie handsets and hugely cheapo deals have been commonplace in the market for years for all handset manufacturers/networks.  

Well, until Apple came along, of course.


----------



## jæd (Nov 27, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Good for consumers - it's not a black and white issue, it's not about 'Apple or nothing', that closed inverse logic some are trapped in, it's about invoking a competitive market (as the handset is intrinsically better for many users, and accompanied by a deluge of hype), so you can't have missed the competitive deals that are hitting the market now - everything from free iPOds from Orange and others when you buy a handset to cheaper handsets, more well-featured devices - all released as an attempt to secure market share against the cupertino barbarians. This relatively recent quote sums it up fairly well:
> 
> "Competition in the UK mobile phone retail market has long been intense but the iPhone's arrival has changed the game," said Bill Schuh, vice president for Europe at Callidus Software. "There is a sales frenzy as retailers try both to lure away customers to the iPhone and provide alternatives to it. It means that daily management of how the salesforce and channel are compensated with incentives has become critical. But unless retailers find a more effective, instantaneous way to do this, they face a bleak Christmas once the dust from the iPhone launch has settled."
> 
> ...



Its very easy to tell us what the iPhone *isn't* and *hasn't* without looking at what it has given us. But thats the same for any new gadget. Its easy to slate it without looking at the technologies behind it...

There are also another aspect of the iPhone thats good. The introduction of Mac OS X Embedded. An easy to use and *reliable* phone os. If they can introduce applications on it to it successfully (ie easy to install, don't crash it), they've managed to achieve their goal of a non-spoddy smartphone.

It also bodes well for things like the iTablet...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 27, 2007)

Outside the shitty contract thing I don't really think the technical specs at present are really that big a deal or worth getting frustrated with, it's obvious there'll be revisions, software updates and newer versions of the phone from now on. This is just the first attempt and as every early adopter knows you always take a hit in a number of areas to be the first to try a product.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> There are also another aspect of the iPhone thats good. The introduction of Mac OS X Embedded. An easy to use and *reliable* phone os.


The true test of the iPhone's OS comes when it starts running a proper range of software apps. It's not that hard to be reliable and solid when you're only running a limited amount of in-house apps (WM excepted of course  ).


----------



## rocketman (Nov 27, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> He's a top bloke in real life you know...keep in mind the net and forums tend to distort and magnify tone etc.



Just to second that on the bloke in question, just that here me and him seem to disagree on almost anything, ah well. And he sure gets under me skin with his special 'net manner.


----------



## paolo (Nov 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> (WM excepted of course  ).



And Symbian.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The true test of the iPhone's OS comes when it starts running a proper range of software apps. It's not that hard to be reliable and solid when you're only running a limited amount of in-house apps (WM excepted of course  ).



Well, it's Unix, so there's good potential, I reckon.

iPhone was always going to be a challenge in the UK market, it's the most advanced in the world for mobile, bar Japan.

Cheaper soon? That feels a safe bet.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 27, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> I point to David Blain in a box for an example of great british cynicism at its finest.


The reaction to that stunt was about the only time in my life I've ever felt patriotic


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 27, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The true test of the iPhone's OS comes when it starts running a proper range of software apps. It's not that hard to be reliable and solid when you're only running a limited amount of in-house apps (WM excepted of course  ).



WM is running very stable on my tytn ii.  Shame the interface is a bit pants, cos it has such potential.  Apparently half the problems on it are because HTC haven't bothered getting a driver for the 2d acceleration hardware built-in to the CPU.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> WM is running very stable on my tytn ii.  Shame the interface is a bit pants, cos it has such potential.  Apparently half the problems on it are because HTC haven't bothered getting a driver for the 2d acceleration hardware built-in to the CPU.


The WM5/6 interface really is awful. It's like a weird variant of Windows 95 with the odd Vista reflective bar shoved on.

The HTC Touch phone was a massive disappointment - I couldn't wait to get rid of the thing. 

The Palm/Vodafone-tweaked interface on the Treo 500v was a *lot* better - it was really quite impressive for most everyday functions and only occasionally dumped me into the grim depths of the standard Windows Mobile interface.


----------



## Sunray (Nov 27, 2007)

I don't actually think the idea of WM is for it to be the main front end.  I think Microsoft intend you to write the front end.  Its actually quite an impressive OS because its nearly has the full feature set of NT.

They give you the UI for completeness, but I believe the idea is that the developers write their own using all the Windows dev tools that Microsoft provide and they are very very good indeed.  Unfortunately, developers of these devices don't seem to have taken that on board.


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 27, 2007)

Some of the guys making custom roms for the htc tytn ii appear to be doing a decent job.  I'm going to give one of them a go soon.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 28, 2007)

Is this something?
http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/11/27/greenpeace/index.php


----------



## editor (Nov 28, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Is this something?
> http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/11/27/greenpeace/index.php


There's already a thread about that story:
http://urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=230901


----------



## paolo (Nov 28, 2007)

Does anyone know where the 100,000 figure came from? Some web sites say that this was O2's expectation, others say it was "analysts", others actually use it as a number for what was sold. The Register says it was "quoted in broadsheet and tabloid alike".

I've searched google news but it seems like everyone is copying and pasting each other's stories.

Editor: any links? I found the daily mirror one (no byline, no source) and the one by Charles Rae in the Sun.

Beyond the red tops though I'm drawing a blank.


----------



## editor (Nov 28, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know where the 100,000 figure came from? Some web sites say that this was O2's expectation, others say it was "analysts", others actually use it as a number for what was sold. The Register says it was "quoted in broadsheet and tabloid alike".
> 
> I've searched google news but it seems like everyone is copying and pasting each other's stories.
> 
> Editor: any links? I found the daily mirror one (no byline, no source) and the one by Charles Rae in the Sun..


According to the Telegraph, it was O2 who came up with the figure:


> Apple needs more than cutting–edge design to penetrate this market and will have to work much harder in the UK than it did in the US to make iPhone a mass-market proposition...
> 
> Early sales figures seem to bear that out, according to technology website The Register. It quotes "reliable channel sources" as saying that O2 has activated just 26,500 handsets since the iPhone went on sale on November 9.
> 
> ...


----------



## jæd (Nov 28, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The true test of the iPhone's OS comes when it starts running a proper range of software apps. It's not that hard to be reliable and solid when you're only running a limited amount of in-house apps (WM excepted of course  ).



Yes... This is going to be the difficult bit for Apple. I can see why they defaulted for everything to run as root. While developing this is easier. Hopefully they switch to using applications in user-space as this will make it more secure and the potential for viruses will be greatly decreased. (It will be interesting having a mass-market Unix-based phone...)

I'm also looking forward to the Google's Android initative... Competition, as always, is good for markets.


----------



## editor (Nov 28, 2007)

Google's Android OS excites me a lot more than the iPhone to be honest.


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 28, 2007)

Hell yes!  Can't wait for phones with android installed.  Might even be able to get a version for my phone...


----------



## paolo (Nov 28, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> According to the Telegraph, it was O2 who came up with the figure:



There's only one problem here. That story was posted _after_ the Register's story.

So I still can't find the broadsheet articles that the register refers to. In one story, they say the Guardian published the 100000 number. But I've searched there and it doesn't show.

I'm beginning to think that this all came from the Sun. All other leads have gone cold.


----------



## stdPikachu (Nov 28, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> And here it is again, the same old arguments trotted out on the iPhone thread. Perhaps we should start a 'like iPhone' and a 'hate iPhone' thread, which you could populate with your one-sided selective cadaver of an argument,



same_old != invalid

TBH, as I've said before, I'm looking forward to further implementations of the OSX phone platform, the iPhone has given us a bundle of cool and _useful_ technologies in a platform that (IMHO) is severely restircted and overpriced. Ed and myself are aware that the iPhone has potential but has suffered initially from overhype and rush-to-market.

I can understand the iPod target market angle to an extent, but remember that the iPod came out when portable MP3 players were still something of an emerging market, and made a previously primarily geek-only toy accessible and usable for the masses. However, smartphones have already been established for years in a numnber of different phone families so IMHO the barriers to entry are higher because there's more competition not just in terms of features and usability but of network availability and all the other jazz that the iPhone has been criticised for.

If I could get a handset for ~£300 and chuck whatever SIM in it I wanted, with the promise of proper third party apps down the line, I'd seriously consider it. But being locked into a contract or being faced with a bricked phone aren't very carrot, are they?


----------



## Crispy (Nov 28, 2007)

What he said ^^^^^


----------



## editor (Nov 28, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> I'm beginning to think that this all came from the Sun. All other leads have gone cold.


I'm not sure why you're so bothered by this, but the figure has been broadly attributed to O2's chief executive, Matthew Key:


> Meanwhile reports are currently circulating that claim just 26,500 iPhone activations have taken place in the UK since the device launched - far below the anticipated hundreds of thousands of sales predicted by O2 chief executive, Matthew Key.
> http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itunes/news/index.cfm?newsid=19785



The fact they O2 employed an additional 1,427 members of staff to deal with sales and support for the device would suggest that vast sales figures were anticipated.


----------



## editor (Nov 28, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> TBH, as I've said before, I'm looking forward to further implementations of the OSX phone platform, the iPhone has given us a bundle of cool and _useful_ technologies in a platform that (IMHO) is severely restircted and overpriced. Ed and myself are aware that the iPhone has potential but has suffered initially from overhype and rush-to-market.


Spot on.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 28, 2007)

This seems relevant - did this crop up in this thread that Carphone Warehouse were forcing people to take out iPhone insurance, or was it elsewhere?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7115830.stm


----------



## editor (Nov 28, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> This seems relevant - did this crop up in this thread that Carphone Warehouse were forcing people to take out iPhone insurance, or was it elsewhere?
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7115830.stm


I think someone mentioned it here as well.


----------



## rocketman (Nov 28, 2007)

Well, it looks like three in five Carphone Warehouse stores actively lied to force iPhone buyers to take out insurance. Naturally, its the staff who suffer - desperate to top up their meagre salaries with commission, so the company itself looks blameless, but clearly isn't.


----------



## Gromit (Nov 28, 2007)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Well, it looks like three in five Carphone Warehouse stores actively lied to force iPhone buyers to take out insurance. Naturally, its the staff who suffer - desperate to top up their meagre salaries with commission, so the company itself looks blameless, but clearly isn't.


 
I got stung by this. Watchdog are covering it tonight. Hopefully this will force Carphone Warehouse to promise some kind of reparation or allow us to cancel. If so i will.


----------



## editor (Nov 28, 2007)

Apple's lawyers are off again. I can't see them holding off the mighty Nokia for long, but it would be a real bummer if competing products were delayed over this is, leaving the consumers with less choice.


> Nokia and Apple to clash over touchscreen cellphone patents?
> 
> Well, according to Richard Windsor, an analyst with London-based Nomura, Nokia could see "delays or holdups" in its smartphone strategy if Apple decides to unleash its army of lawyers in defense of its over 200 iPhone-related patent filings. (Note: that's "filings" not patents granted for intellectual property.) According to Mr. Windsor, "I think Apple will likely view Nokia as infringing on its user interface patents." Having said that, he further speculates that Apple and Nokia will likely end up in a settlement by 2009 in order to avoid a lengthy Qualcomm vs. Nokia battle in the courts.
> 
> ...


----------



## jæd (Nov 28, 2007)

Looks like unlocked price will be €749 (£566.11) in France... (Base price of €649 + €100 to unlock) 
http://www.france24.com/france24Pub...ews.html?id=071128104952.2hsnu6so&cat=science

But you might not need an iPhone after-all... 



> I am happy to inform you, that the Audio Input pins of the iPod Touch are active,
> and can be used for connecting any Audio source (like an external Mic, your CD-player, FM radio, etc) for recording. This also opens the doors for VoIP
> applications!!


http://www.ipodtouchfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9347


----------



## paolo (Nov 28, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> the figure has been broadly attributed to O2's chief executive, Matthew Key



Matthew Key did indeed say 200,000+.

Including christmas and 'the new year period'
What I was questioning though was the Register - who haven't attributed the 100,000 to him, but instead to the Sun and the Guardian. I can't find anything in the Guardian though. Perhaps the Guardian has removed the story.


----------



## jæd (Nov 28, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Matthew Key did indeed say 200,000+.
> 
> Including christmas and 'the new year period'
> What I was questioning though was the Register - who haven't attributed the 100,000 to him, but instead to the Sun and the Guardian. I can't find anything in the Guardian though. Perhaps the Guardian has removed the story.



Does it matter the precise number...? Apple have sold lots of phones, perhaps not as many as they would've liked, but they've now got a presence in the UK mobile phone market. Can we discuss something more interesting now...?


----------



## editor (Nov 28, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> Matthew Key did indeed say 200,000+.
> 
> Including christmas and 'the new year period'
> What I was questioning though was the Register - who haven't attributed the 100,000 to him, but instead to the Sun and the Guardian.


But surely the 1,000+ extra staff employed to deal with the expected 'rush' on launch day backs up the story of his lofty expectations? Can't see why you're so interested to be honest. What's your point?


----------



## paolo (Nov 28, 2007)

Dp


----------



## paolo (Nov 28, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Can't see why you're so interested to be honest.



I was curious to know if the 100000 just came from the Sun, or whether there was another source.


----------



## paolo (Nov 28, 2007)

and in other news... 

France ships tonight. €749 unlocked.

(wonder why they are €250 less than Germay? I'd assumed the €999 was Apple's doing, but this suggests it was T-Mobile)


----------



## jæd (Nov 29, 2007)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> and in other news...
> 
> France ships tonight. €749 unlocked.



See http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6787170&postcount=1463 ...


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2007)

Unless it has a built in Oyster Card I am not interested


----------



## Crispy (Nov 29, 2007)

Interesting. A network-connected wallet. Hmmm. I'd be right in guessing that the seperation of functions has 100% security, of course.


----------



## ovaltina (Nov 29, 2007)

Badgers said:
			
		

> Unless it has a built in Oyster Card I am not interested



I saw someone at Brixton tube once who had taken the chip from an Oyster and put it into a ring on his finger. The guard at the gates was well impressed.

You could probably put the chip into the back of my phone, there's lots of space behind the battery, which would mean not having to get my wallet out every time I take the tube


----------



## stdPikachu (Nov 29, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> I'd be right in guessing that the seperation of functions has 100% security, of course.



According to El Reg, they can't even decide on the ownership (i.e. reponsibility) of the secure storage. Personally the whole thing sounds like a clusterfuck waiting to happen, but I'm naturally suspicious of what seems like pointless integrration to me.

As an aside, DoCoMo have been doing the same thing for years, not sure how much it's caught on.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> According to El Reg, they can't even decide on the ownership (i.e. reponsibility) of the secure storage. Personally the whole thing sounds like a clusterfuck waiting to happen, but I'm naturally suspicious of what seems like pointless integrration to me..


I'd like it if my _debit_ card worked as an Oyster, automatically topping up from my account.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 29, 2007)

What would stop me taking an oyster instant pay terminal and hacking it into a portable machine that I wave around by people's pockets, taking their cash? If I understand it right, the authorisation on oyster is instant - that is, it doesn't phone home to a central database to authorise the transfer.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> According to El Reg, they can't even decide on the ownership (i.e. reponsibility) of the secure storage. Personally the whole thing sounds like a clusterfuck waiting to happen, but I'm naturally suspicious of what seems like pointless integrration to me.


I'd like it if my _debit_ card worked as an Oyster, automatically topping up from my account.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> What would stop me taking an oyster instant pay terminal and hacking it into a portable machine that I wave around by people's pockets, taking their cash? If I understand it right, the authorisation on oyster is instant - that is, it doesn't phone home to a central database to authorise the transfer.


The system only works for small amounts (under £10), so I'd imagine a dodgy scamster notching up a massive flurry of £10 payments would be flagged up pretty quickly.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2007)

ovaltina said:
			
		

> I saw someone at Brixton tube once who had taken the chip from an Oyster and put it into a ring on his finger. The guard at the gates was well impressed.
> 
> You could probably put the chip into the back of my phone, there's lots of space behind the battery, which would mean not having to get my wallet out every time I take the tube



Wicked  

I think that could have loads of good applications. 
Stitched into a coat sleeve?
Part of a bracelet?


----------



## stdPikachu (Nov 29, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> What would stop me taking an oyster instant pay terminal and hacking it into a portable machine that I wave around by people's pockets, taking their cash?



What's to stop you? It's illegal, that's what!

Sorry, I'm immediately wary of any payment system that works on the principle of authorisation by proximity, no matter how small the amounts of money involved. But then I'm one of those stuckists who uses cash for almost everything.

To paraphrase again, I believe that those who are willing to forgo security for more convenience deserve neither and will lose both


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> What would stop me taking an oyster instant pay terminal and hacking it into a portable machine that I wave around by people's pockets, taking their cash? If I understand it right, the authorisation on oyster is instant - that is, it doesn't phone home to a central database to authorise the transfer.



What would stop you dressing up a postal worker and robbing old people in their homes?


----------



## Xanadu (Nov 29, 2007)

stdPikachu said:
			
		

> To paraphrase again, I believe that those who are willing to forgo security for more convenience deserve neither and will lose both


----------



## jæd (Nov 29, 2007)

> AT&T confirms 3G iPhone due next year
> A long-anticipated 3G version of the iPhone is guaranteed for 2008, AT&T's head has told a meeting of the Churchill Club in Santa Clara, California. "You'll have it next year," said CEO Randall Stephenson. The executive would not elaborate on how fast the new phone would be, but AT&T currently operates 3G through an HSPA network, theoretically capable of speeds up to 3.6Mbps. Stephenson is also refusing to comment on whether or not it will cost the same as the current $399 iPhone, except to say that Apple CEO Steve Jobs "will dictate what the price of the phone is."


http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/11/29/att.3g.iphone.in.2008/

And I wonder what the memory will be...? 16 Gb...?


----------



## paolo (Nov 30, 2007)

almost certainly. The Samsung chip should have been shipping in volume for awhile by then. It's also possible there will be an interim update - 16gb, ahead of 3G. MacWorld SF in January would be the next logical time to announce.

Whenever 16gb appears, expect a 32gb iPod touch too.


----------



## tarannau (Dec 6, 2007)

Upbeat sales report from Michael Abramsky at RBC. Perhaps we're being a little cynical. 

(excuse the large cut and paste - the source won't allow direct links)



> Despite a very familiar set of limitations, the iPhone is showing continued demand in Europe and leading its immediate rivals
> 
> Sales checks in France, Germany, and the UK have all revealed strong sales both during and immediately after each country's respective launches. While T-Mobile's initial launch saw only 10,000 iPhones sold in Germany on the first day, many of the carrier's 700 retail stores continue to reflect a "solid" demand of 15-20 iPhones sold per week, Abramsky says.
> 
> ...


----------



## paolo (Dec 6, 2007)

France has gone very well for Apple. If I remember rightly, France Telecom (Orange) announced 50,000 signups in week one. 50% switchers from other carriers. Oddly, though, only a few hundred unlocked phones sold.

Also... There's been some interesting numbers published for mobile browsing. iphone browser usage is dwarfing Symbian and Windows mobile combined. I would of course paste a link to that, but I'm - ah - using my i...


----------



## Sunray (Dec 7, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Upbeat sales report from Michael Abramsky at RBC. Perhaps we're being a little cynical.
> 
> (excuse the large cut and paste - the source won't allow direct links)



The N95 is well known for not being the greatest phone because of its terrible battery life.  

iPhone is well known for being far too expensive.  

Joe public is now well clued up on mobile phones and contract and costs. Just look at those companies with those cash back deals where they made it as hard as possible to get the cash back expecting only 40% would, yet 80% neatly jumped through every hoop and caused them to go bust.

Make it max 250 quid, any operator, people might be interested.  If not then its going to be consigned to a nice niche gadget.


----------



## laptop (Dec 7, 2007)

Badgers said:
			
		

> Wicked
> 
> [Oyster] Stitched into a coat sleeve?




Wash, or dry-clean?


----------



## tarannau (Dec 7, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> Make it max 250 quid, any operator, people might be interested.  If not then its going to be consigned to a nice niche gadget.



This strikes me as a bit of a fatuous point. The whole 'smartphone' market is itself a niche gadget field and this being (a) Apple's first phone and with (B) Apple's aiming for a mighty 1% of the mobile market I'm not sure what else you're trying to say. Bear in mind that the iphone's currently outselling the entire Palm and Blackberry ranges in the US, hugely established competitors. Given the size of the entire market, a niche is all they have to aim for.


----------



## jæd (Dec 7, 2007)

1.1.3 Firmware coming soon... 




			
				MacNN said:
			
		

> The site points to multiple reports that a 1.1.3 upgrade for the iPhone will appear by Saturday which adds both a disk mode for storing general data on the device and a voice recording mode for capturing lectures or voice memos.


http://www.electronista.com/articles/07/12/06/iphone.113.rumor/

I wonder if the Voice Memo app would be workable on the Touch, seeing as they've got a microphone to work on it...


----------



## Structaural (Dec 7, 2007)

My current contract comes to and end in May. Having had a mess around on a colleagues iPhone I can see me buying one when they come out here in Holland, if the price isn't too steep. The screen looks amazing if a little greasy. Do they work with Airports Extremes?
I only use my phone for SMS, calls and browsing (though not often as it looks shit on my Nokia 6280) and my 2gb ipod has had better days so it would suit me, though a mail app would be useful.


----------



## Crispy (Dec 7, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> Airports Extremes?


Yes





> I only use my phone for SMS, calls and browsing (though not often as it looks shit on my Nokia 6280) and my 2gb ipod has had better days so it would suit me, though a mail app would be useful.


It has a mail app.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 7, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> though a mail app would be useful.



The mail ap is quite good. Ive set up two email addresses on it and like the way it works. But you can also go in via the web and look at say gmail that way. Gmail detects you are mobile and puts up a mobile webpage for u which I thought was quite cool.


----------



## Structaural (Dec 7, 2007)

Excellent.  I mainly use Gmail but I've got a POP account for mailing lists.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 7, 2007)

Well setting up Yahoo, Mac, Gmail and Aol emails are simplicity itself as it has ready made options for those.

Funnily enough not for M$'s Hotmail. I wonder why 

The ap handles Imap, Pop and Exchange.


----------



## paolo (Dec 7, 2007)

google now have an iPhone specific 'bundle' of their core web apps, with some nice AJAX stuff to make it fast. If you go to google mobile (www.google.com/m) it will auto detect and give you the iPhone version, rather than the more cut down mobile version. (note: you have to use the .com route - .uk doesn't do it at the moment.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 7, 2007)

Yeah thats the same with gmail. When I said mobile version I meant the cut down iPhone version. Like. mini web page rather than wap.


----------



## Mr Retro (Dec 8, 2007)

Saw an iPhone in the flesh for the first time today. After having a good play I think it's fucking class. Going to get one soon.


----------



## paolo (Dec 13, 2007)

From mobiletoday.co.uk

------------------------------------
Growing demand for quality handsets
2007-12-07

iPhone remains number one, as N95 also enters the chart

Quality handsets are driving demand, and prices are falling. The iPhone still tops the chart, with demand up and average prices edging lower. The N95 has shot in at number 5 - clearly a sign that distributors and retailers are stocking up to meets the needs of the discerning customer this Christmas.

Rank / Demand (rising/falling) / Phone

1 + Apple iPhone
2 - Nokia 6300
3 + Motorola RAZR V3
4 + Nokia 1600
5 + Nokia N95 8GB
6 + Nokia 1112
7 - Nokia 1110i
8 + Nokia 2610
9 + Samsung E250
10 + Sony Ericsson W810i


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Dec 14, 2007)

I've just been raped!  I was traveling in Brazil all last month. I was just checking email when I needed to.  23 times in a month.  AT&T (I live in the US) have charged the grand total of $1566.52 to check me emails 23 times.  One downloaded 31.250 Mb, $609.55. And the phone never asked me if I wanted to download that attachment!

The Editor is right, much as it pains me to say it, Palm is best.  My old Trio would ask if I wanted to down load an attachment, not just go and download Mbs willy nilly.  How ever pretty it might be it ain't worth $1500 for one month.

Moral of the story.....don't buy an iPhone if you are going to check serious emails while international roaming, even if you only check them when you need to rather than every 30 minutes.

I am presuming charging structures are similar in the UK.

I cannot see anyway of stopping it downloading attachments or limiting the size of data transfered.


----------



## Crispy (Dec 14, 2007)

I would never, ever use a mobile phone for data while roaming. That's a hell of a sting you got there


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Dec 14, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> I would never, ever use a mobile phone for data while roaming. That's a hell of a sting you got there


it's work....so I can put it on my expenses....but it's just not right


----------



## editor (Dec 14, 2007)

In the cab to JFK airport yesterday morning. Fellow traveller whips out his iPhone to book his reservation with Virgin. Cue groans as he's forced to download huge great graphics on the site because the built in browser won't let him turn images off.

Naturally, there's no Wi-Fi so he's on AT&T's creaky data network.

He gave up after 15 mins.

Whatever phone you use, make sure there's an option to turn off images and limit downloads (Chattermail/Blazer on the Palm is great for this. But there again, Blazer looks rubbish compared to the Apple browser. Chattermail kicks the iPhone's mail app arse though).


----------



## Gromit (Dec 14, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> Moral of the story.....don't buy an iPhone if you are going to check serious emails while international roaming, even if you only check them when you need to rather than every 30 minutes.


 
I phoned O2 to transfer over my new number. Whilst we were waiting for the system he told me "Oh and you might like to turn data roaming off if you ever go abroad, some places can charge you like £7 a minute".

I thanked him and this i will do. In fact data roaming is already off as default I'm glad to say but am grateful for the warning from O2 any way. So one thing they've done right, although if i hadn't off rung them up I'd be none the wiser, now thats worrying.


----------



## Gromit (Dec 14, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> In the cab to JFK airport yesterday morning. Fellow traveller whips out his iPhone to book his reservation with Virgin. Cue groans as he's forced to download huge great graphics on the site because the built in browser won't let him turn images off.
> 
> Naturally, there's no Wi-Fi so he's on AT&T's creaky data network.
> 
> ...


 
I wouldn't say O2 Edge network is lightning fast. Its never going to match 3g but I've not had too much problems DL'ing graphics so far. An image off option would make sense though, maybe it will come in a fix or a 3rd party ap.


----------



## paolo (Dec 15, 2007)

Data roaming is turned off by default - at least it is in 1.1.2 that shipped here. Not much fun if you turn it on without knowing the charges though.

Sounds like AT&T was coming in at $20 per mb. O2 is $14 per mb (EU roaming). It's not cheap either way.

I have to admit I turned it on and used it with impunity when I was over in France last weekend. So I've just checked and (so far) I've only been billed 0.34p... (crosses fingers that somehow I won't get charged for the rest  )


(I'm not so sure about AT&T Edge being creaky - I've heard mostly good reports about it).


----------



## Xanadu (Dec 15, 2007)

I've been using Orange's 3G/HSDPA network - it's been amazing for mobile browsing.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Dec 20, 2007)

well, AT&T haved considered their position and have adjusted the bill down, to less than half...

But the problems remains, I need data (emails at least) at reasonable cost, so it look like I'm going to have to get a replacement phone for my personal line with TMobile who have free email for international roaming.  So, it looks like the iPhone for voice (AT&T are 1/3 the cost of TMobile) and a dingleberry for email.  The Palm is expensive, more than the iPhone at $576 with no discount as TMobile don't push them any more.  It'll be about $400 for a Blueberry 8800 but I might go for the Pearl as at least it's a bit more pocket sized.

Merry Isthmus! (My being in Panama at the moment - not arriving by canoe - gag)


----------



## editor (Dec 20, 2007)

pseudonarcissus said:
			
		

> The Palm is expensive, more than the iPhone at $576 with no discount as TMobile don't push them any more.)


Why not do what I did and buy a cheap second hand, unlocked Treo 650 (I've seen them for $85 on ebay) and then get a cheap monthly contract with T Mobile?

(They don't offer that free international email deal this end, btw).


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Dec 20, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Why not do what I did and buy a cheap second hand, unlocked Treo 650 (I've seen them for $85 on ebay) and then get a cheap monthly contract with T Mobile?
> 
> (They don't offer that free international email deal this end, btw).



maybe I'll look next week once the unwanted Christmas presents make it there, I'm suspicious of electronics on eBay....I get ripped off/have bad luck enough with stuff.

I guess it's not free...it's $75/mo


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Dec 29, 2007)

*ComputerWorld names iPhone as 2nd most innovative product in 2007*

Amazing it got to number too but perhaps more shocking is there's not one Palm product on the list...



> Frankly, we’re getting a little tired of people lauding the iPhone as the greatest thing since lithium-ion batteries. While Google Gears gets top honors in _ComputerWorld_’s Top 25 Most Innovative Products of 2007, Apple’s iPhone grabs the No. 2 spot in this list.
> 
> While David Pogue gives the iPhone’s Visual Voicemail top-billing, _ComputerWorld_ mentions that the iPhone’s multi-touch touchscreen display as the 2nd most innovative feature of 2007. The iPhone’s multi-touch touchscreen isn’t just a snazzy touchscreen, it’s a capacitance touchscreen. That means you don’t have to fumble around with pressure-sensitive laminated layers of plastic like so many touchscreen devices out there.


Link


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Dec 29, 2007)

Its a shame that the browser cant do things like turn of images and go back pages without reloading them, because all the interface is amazing, these problems alone would stop me getting one.


----------



## editor (Dec 29, 2007)

Global_Stoner said:
			
		

> Its a shame that the browser cant do things like turn of images and go back pages without reloading them, because all the interface is amazing, these problems alone would stop me getting one.


I'm sure they'll fix it sooner or later, but not being able to turn off images in the browser makes some sites totally unusable if you're not near a wi-fi spot.

It's a really stupid omission.


----------



## jæd (Dec 29, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I'm sure they'll fix it sooner or later, but not being able to turn off images in the browser makes some sites totally unusable if you're not near a wi-fi spot.
> 
> It's a really stupid omission.



Not sure how much you've played around the iPhone, but an informal test of the iPhones browser showed it was much better than the Treos... Some pages had finished loading on the iPhone (images and all) before the Treo had started downloading the web page.


----------



## jæd (Dec 29, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Amazing it got to number too but perhaps more shocking is there's not one Palm product on the list...
> 
> Link



The touch screen isn't the innovative thing, its the ui (including multi-touch)...


----------



## editor (Dec 29, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Not sure how much you've played around the iPhone, but an informal test of the iPhones browser showed it was much better than the Treos... Some pages had finished loading on the iPhone (images and all) before the Treo had started downloading the web page.


Via GPRS with images turned off?

Highly unlikely unless you were looking at a low graphics website. 

And yes, I put it to the test a few weeks ago when a friend was trying to access Virgin Atlantic's site from a cab in NY. The Treo pwned the iPhone (but would obviously would be left standing if there was wi-fi about - and the iPhone's browser is miles better than the basic one that comes with the Treo. Opera works better for graphic sites though.).


----------



## jæd (Dec 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Via GPRS with images turned off?
> 
> Highly unlikely unless you were looking at a low graphics website.
> 
> And yes, I put it to the test a few weeks ago when a friend was trying to access Virgin Atlantic's site from a cab in NY. The Treo pwned the iPhone (but would obviously would be left standing if there was wi-fi about - and the iPhone's browser is miles better than the basic one that comes with the Treo. Opera works better for graphic sites though.).


 
One of the sites was U75. It takes way too long to download on the Treo, and posting is an exercise in frustration. And I've never yet successfully installed Opera... It keeps bitching about a missing Java library, even though I've installed it...

Don't get me wrong, I think the Centro would be a lovely bit of kit. But if they don't release the GSM version *soon* I won't bother...  And if they haven't upgraded Blazer (the Treo browser) I might not bother either...


----------



## WWWeed (Dec 30, 2007)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> I've been using Orange's 3G/HSDPA network - it's been amazing for mobile browsing.


yup and streaming on the move! I am quite impressed. Shame it costs a fortune to use!    

When the hell are these barstard mobile companys going to stop shafting us for data and roming charges? let alone mobile data charges while roaming!


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> One of the sites was U75. It takes way too long to download on the Treo, and posting is an exercise in frustration. And I've never yet successfully installed Opera... It keeps bitching about a missing Java library, even though I've installed it...


Takes but a few seconds to download u75 on my Treo browser. 

Hang on I'll check.. yep, 6.5 seconds for the u75 BB home page to appear.

You are using the vB3 lite skin, yes?

As for Java I suggest you try installing it again. I had Opera working on my Treo, no probs.


----------



## jæd (Dec 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Takes but a few seconds to download u75 on my Treo browser.
> 
> Hang on I'll check.. yep, 6.5 seconds for the u75 BB home page to appear.
> 
> ...



It takes me 2 mins to load the "New Posts" screen on the Treo with the regular skin. It took a fraction of that with my Boss's iPhone and it wasn't using wireless...

Thing is, the Treo's browser was good when it came out and has been good enough for a while. But that doesn't cut it anymore. Why should I have a "good enough" browser where I have to fiddle with settings to get it performing ok...?

Right at the moment the Treo is the only phone I'd consider, but its slowly getting caught up. If Palm don't do something really good in 2008, they will be history...


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Why should I have a "good enough" browser where I have to fiddle with settings to get it performing ok...?


I don't have to fiddle with settings - it takes seconds to select  'turn off images' and for urban I just select the 'lite' skin and that's it. 

But it all depends what you want a mobile browser to do. I'm not interested in trying to create a 'full web experience' on my phone - I just want information/maps/football scores etc fast.

Great thought the iPhone's browser is, it's still mighty tiresome for anything other than short sessions on the web because of the small size of the screen.

My wi-fi Palm Clie has exactly the same size screen as the iPhone and it's a drag looking at things for long at such a diddy resolution.


----------



## jæd (Dec 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I don't have to fiddle with settings - it takes seconds to select  'turn off images' and for urban I just select the 'lite' skin and that's it.



With images turned off I can get it down to 25 secs...




			
				editor said:
			
		

> Great thought the iPhone's browser is, it's still mighty tiresome for anything other than short sessions on the web because of the small size of the screen.



Then use the zoom. Its not as good as a full-size screen, but its certainly better than the Treos...!


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2007)

jæd said:
			
		

> Then use the zoom. Its not as good as a full-size screen, but its certainly better than the Treos...!


Don't be ridiculous. Surfing web pages by zooming in and out al over the pace on a comparatively tiny screen is not an enjoyable experience. 

I don't think anyone's claiming that the Treo's ultra-basic browser is better than the iPhones, by the way, but it gets the job done for most sites.

PS I just tried again and it took me about 7 seconds to get the u75 BB homepage on my Treo. Sounds like you've got a problem with your connection or settings.


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Dec 30, 2007)

hello! I'm posting from my spanking new iPod touch! Its ssweet! It would be nice to turn images off.... One thing has surprised me is how fast the broadband is here in the states....


----------



## paolo (Dec 31, 2007)

1.1.3 has been seen in the wild. Could well be a leak ahead of a MacWorld Expo SF announcement in a few weeks time.

- Multiple recipient text messaging sorted
- Boomarks can be home page icons
- Google Maps supports Hybrid view (satellite + map combined)
- Faux GPS (Cell triangulation). Not sure if this will be available outside the US.
- Home page customisation + pagination.

Demo video: http://gizmodo.com/339055/full-video-demo-of-apple-iphone-firmware-113-features


----------



## chrisb (Jan 4, 2008)

Why make the iPhone with no 3G, a crap camera, and no video?

I'll wait for the next one... plus 8GB, most music collections are considerabley larger.

Nice to look at though!


----------



## Structaural (Jan 4, 2008)

chrisb said:
			
		

> Why make the iPhone with no 3G, a crap camera, and no video?
> 
> I'll wait for the next one... plus 8GB, most music collections are considerabley larger.
> 
> Nice to look at though!



It's coming soon I think (the video camera) - someone already hacked a version with a pretty high frame rate. 
I like the fact that it plays tv show/movies now I'm back on an hour commute. Though it's still not available here in Holland.


----------



## chrisb (Jan 4, 2008)

Also i hate the fact they only give the license to one network provider!

Apple suck balls when it comes to the iPhone!


----------



## fjydj (Jan 4, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> Don't be ridiculous. Surfing web pages by zooming in and out al over the pace on a comparatively tiny screen is not an enjoyable experience.



actually the auto zoom thing is a joy to use, you don't have to zoom in and out with the 2 finger action all the time, a quick double tap of the area you want does an automatic zoom in or out. its really sweet to use... 

...there's other issues with it, but screen resizing isn't one


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2008)

fjydj said:
			
		

> actually the auto zoom thing is a joy to use, you don't have to zoom in and out with the 2 finger action all the time, a quick double tap of the area you want does an automatic zoom in or out. its really sweet to use...
> 
> ...there's other issues with it, but screen resizing isn't one


Yes, I've seen it and used it. 

It's very clever, but spending more than a few minutes surfing the web on a screen that small is still a fiddly process.


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Jan 4, 2008)

I got the 8gb ipod touch and its fantastic. 8gb is just fine capacity wise. The zooming, watching youtube on the sofa is great and in the states where i got it downloading tunes while standing outside starbucks is great!  Its a fantastic toy. I don't think Ill bother jailbreaking it, its just fine as it is. 

The iPhone seems good. We got lost and a friend of mine broke out google maps on it, it was fantastic. For me its too expensive and a bit too big. I have a phone already. Maybe if it gets smaller with some better functions. So I got the iphone without the phone which is the itouch and its great! And considerably cheaper!


----------



## Poi E (Jan 4, 2008)

Speaking to an Apple engineer a few weeks ago and he said a new iPhone with wifi, 3G etc will be released (US) within the next 2-3 months. Sounds like a cool company to work for.


----------



## jæd (Jan 4, 2008)

Poi E said:
			
		

> Speaking to an Apple engineer a few weeks ago and he said a new iPhone with wifi, 3G etc will be released (US) within the next 2-3 months. Sounds like a cool company to work for.



iPhone already has wifi...?


----------



## Poi E (Jan 4, 2008)

jæd said:
			
		

> iPhone already has wifi...?



er yeah was just going to correct. Shows how much I know about these things!


----------



## Gromit (Jan 4, 2008)

chrisb said:
			
		

> Why make the iPhone with no 3G, a crap camera, and no video?
> 
> I'll wait for the next one... plus 8GB, most music collections are considerabley larger.
> 
> Nice to look at though!



The 3g one is likely to be even more expensive mind.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2008)

*Opera coming to the iPhone*

Other than their desire to have it on every system I don't why they're bothering tbh...



> Yeah, you heard that right.  An Opera developer has stated that they are working on an iPhone version of their browser to be released alongside the iPhone SDK - whenever it comes out.  Why?  It is hard to speculate - the Safari browser really makes the iPhone/iPod amazing.  Opera is persistant though.  They want their browser to run on every single device that exists in the universe - from toasters to spaceships, Opera wants to work on everything.
> 
> Realistically, though, they aren't going to have much of a chance against Safari on the platform.  Opera is a solid browser and brings some awesome features to the fold (built in torrent downloading for instance) but the mobile Safari, with its panning and zooming features will be hard to beat.
> 
> I guess we'll have to see.  Competition is always good for consumers (us) and perhaps they'll come up with some new features that aren't available yet on Safari.  We are looking forward to trying it out.


----------



## jæd (Jan 9, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Other than their desire to have it on every system I don't why they're bothering tbh...



Because they can...? And because choice is good...  Btw, Palm are pulling the Java JVM from their site so good luck installing Opera on that... http://blog.palm.com/palm/2008/01/last-chance-to.html


----------



## rocketman (Jan 10, 2008)

They will need to get a 3G model together before the Japanese launch, I suspect. That launch is (I think) set for June, Q2 2008 definitely. So they may talk about this, and introduce it as a 16GB version, certainly a higher capacity is likely. Also note peeps from UK arms of Apple dealing with mktng and publicity have been in SF for around a week, so there's a heap of briefing/training sessions going on in advance of next week's news.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2008)

3G and higher capacity are a big ones. Wonder if they'll drop the current 8gigger or just reduce price?


----------



## rocketman (Jan 10, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> 3G and higher capacity are a big ones. Wonder if they'll drop the current 8gigger or just reduce price?



Not sure on price: I think the last price drop drew quite a bit of criticism, so they'll have to handle that delicately.

The other thing to expect is the first signs of the dev kit for iPhone apps, and (likely) a few demos of upcoming apps from key vendors that will be in development, reckon games and Exchange support. It'll be a bit businessy I think, that bit.

Pretty certain they'll do an update and add a couple of features. But that update could be in february, when the API's ship.

Such an inexact science is Apple-watching. What I have noticed is that Apple have this Expo really nailed down secrecy-wise. B4 the last one they prepped the market with months of iPhone hype, this time the big focus appears to be the sub-notebook Mac, but I constantly feel like I'm dealing with an incomplete jigsaw puzzle this time around. So all bets are on.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2008)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Not sure on price: I think the last price drop drew quite a bit of criticism, so they'll have to handle that delicately.
> 
> The other thing to expect is the first signs of the dev kit for iPhone apps, and (likely) a few demos of upcoming apps from key vendors that will be in development, reckon games and Exchange support. It'll be a bit businessy I think, that bit.
> 
> ...


Yeah I noticed that by the little amount of clear anything on some blogs I've been reading...wouldn't surprise if they pulled some rabbit out of the hat like an ultra portable laptop with multi touch screen for under $500...


----------



## hendo (Jan 10, 2008)

Came across this interesting item about the i-phone's development this week, but I'm not sure I agree with the premise that the device blows open the mobile industry in the way described.


----------



## rocketman (Jan 10, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Yeah I noticed that by the little amount of clear anything on some blogs I've been reading...wouldn't surprise if they pulled some rabbit out of the hat like an ultra portable laptop with multi touch screen for under $500...



The other thing, if you take a look at the big Mac news websites in the US, the publishers are scared of Apple legal, and their journalists aren't paid enough or given sufficient opportunity to justify digging out the hard news stories (and to be honest. a lot of them just ain't capable of doing that in the first place). So there's this knowledge gap.


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2008)

hendo said:
			
		

> Came across this interesting item about the i-phone's development this week, but I'm not sure I agree with the premise that the device blows open the mobile industry in the way described.


It's an important phone in some respects, but it's only building on the real innovations that have gone before it by and adding a veneer of Apple's super desirable slickness on top.

It may look very pretty, but it still can't perform many basic smartphone functions and I can't say their exclusive 18 month deals with threatened/built-in bricking for unlocking heralds a great new shiny mobile future for punters.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 10, 2008)

Its that 18 month contract that nails any possible desire I might have had to the wall with a nail gun.  

I have stopped this rabid upgrading given that they seem to be converging on 18 month contracts. Now on 30 days notice 15 quid a month, 1500 o/p min 500txt.   Given that my K800i phone hasn't really been anything other than great as a phone camera combo and I don't call at work.  The iPhone has to be a better device overall to get me interested.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 10, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> It's an important phone in some respects, but it's only building on the real innovations that have gone before it by and adding a veneer of Apple's super desirable slickness on top.
> 
> It may look very pretty, but it still can't perform many basic smartphone functions and I can't say their exclusive 18 month deals with threatened/built-in bricking for unlocking heralds a great new shiny mobile future for punters.



 I don't think that's the jist of that article. It's more that Apple maneuvered itself into a position to start demanding changes in the relationship between network carriers and the phone manufacturers. Features such as the 'visual' voicemail are so logical - why can't you select a specific voicemail from a list - that it begs the question why didn't Nokia, Motorola and the rest demand that network operators do the same many years before.

Equally the iphone, Apple hype or not, show that a well marketed phone can really drive people to specific networks. In mature mobile phone markets acquiring 'switcher' customers becomes ever more vital - phones like this one prove that one specific model can become key in attracting high spending customers and upping internet take up.


----------



## jæd (Jan 10, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> It may look very pretty, but it still can't perform many basic smartphone functions and I can't say their exclusive 18 month deals with threatened/built-in bricking for unlocking heralds a great new shiny mobile future for punters.



Hasn't this point be answered and debated about 20 times already in the thread...?


----------



## rocketman (Jan 10, 2008)

It will be very interesting when the device does as much as it is capable of doing because of the future rich forest of Unix-based apps available to it. Smarter than the average phony.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 10, 2008)

That samsung with the slider keyboard and touch screen looks quite nice.


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2008)

tarannau said:
			
		

> It's more that Apple maneuvered itself into a position to start demanding changes in the relationship between network carriers and the phone manufacturers.


A position that I think is good for Apple and bad for the punter who has less choice.


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2008)

jæd said:
			
		

> Hasn't this point be answered and debated about 20 times already in the thread...?


If you're looking for a board where every single post is raising super-fresh points that have never been heard before, you're in the  wrong place.

The debate goes on because people are still interested in discussing it.


----------



## jæd (Jan 10, 2008)

rocketman said:
			
		

> It will be very interesting when the device does as much as it is capable of doing because of the future rich forest of Unix-based apps available to it. Smarter than the average phony.



Well this is why a lot rides on the next few months... The moment I can install a SSH client without having "jailbreak" it, I'm getting one...  

(It was the primary criteria for my Treo...)


----------



## tarannau (Jan 10, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> A position that I think is good for Apple and bad for the punter who has less choice.



Not necessarily so. The fact is that all phone manufacturers have more of a chance of persuading and taking power out of the network operators now. It's shaken up some of the inertia and complacency of the industry, hopefully something which will lead to dividends for us all. Everyone could raise their game a little. 

The iphone was never designed as a mass market phone for all sectors. I;m not sure how the entry of a new phone and a new player on a fairly static 
marketplace really means less choice to the consumer.


----------



## rocketman (Jan 10, 2008)

Sunray said:
			
		

> That samsung with the slider keyboard and touch screen looks quite nice.



You mean the Samsung F490?

3.2 inch 16:9 wide touchscreen
Google search
Better UI
5 Megapixel Camera
HSDPA 3.6 mbps/ UMTS/ EDGE (900 / 1800 / 1900 / 2100)
Video Recording (MPEG4, QVGA@15fps)
Video Playback (WMV, MPEG4, H.263, H.264, VGA@30fps)
MP3, AAC+, AAC+(e), WMA
OMA DRM v2.0, WMDRM, Multitasking
130MB internal memory + micro SD

UI is still quite ugly, though


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2008)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Not necessarily so. The fact is that all phone manufacturers have more of a chance of persuading and taking power out of the network operators now.


Enforced premium rate 18 month contracts and the threat of bricking 'defectors' is not good for punters in _anyone's_ language.


----------



## rocketman (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't know about that.

It looks quite pretty in Russian:

Принужденная премиальная норма контракты 18 месяцев и угроза кладки кирпича 'невозвращенцы' не хороша для профессиональных игроков на чьем - то языке


----------



## tarannau (Jan 10, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> Enforced premium rate 18 month contracts and the threat of bricking 'defectors' is not good for punters in _anyone's_ language.



But loads of consumers choose to go for 18 month contracts now - check the back pages of any tabloid and you'll see plenty of offers tempting people to upgrade to more pricey 18 month contracts for a free LCD Tv/games console/ride on a pony etc. Apple ain't alone or pioneering a path here.

The brickign thing strikes me as daft, but I haven't seen much sign of other manufacturers following Apple's lead to be fair. If anything, even Apple seems to be preparing to open things up a little more.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 10, 2008)

Sunray said:
			
		

> That samsung with the slider keyboard and touch screen looks quite nice.


My sister in law (Fizz_Gig on here) has one, I had a brief play with it and it's a lovely bit of kit physically, although the UI didn't strike me as particularly user friendly.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 10, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> Enforced premium rate 18 month contracts and the threat of bricking 'defectors' is not good for punters in _anyone's_ language.



Indeed, although its good to see the networks now advertising "sim only" rates with a 1 month rolling contract. A few years ago it seemed to make sense to take the best phone you could negiote on the contract and sell it as you never got a huge discount for not taking a new phone. 

Having now played with i phone and and i pod touch, I think they are great bits or kit, but have to many features missing to justify the high price tag (for me).

If they can sort it out for the mark 2 so that it operates on 3g/hsdpa and make a few changes to the browser then I may be very intrested.


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2008)

tarannau said:
			
		

> But loads of consumers choose to go for 18 month contracts now - check the back pages of any tabloid and you'll see plenty of offers tempting people to upgrade to more pricey 18 month contracts for a free LCD Tv/games console/ride on a pony etc. Apple ain't alone or pioneering a path here.


Yes, but you often get a _free phone_ with 18 month contracts and - of course - that's not the only length of contract available. Unlike the iPhone, punters can choose how long they want to their contract to be,  how much they want to pay for the phone itself and at what monthly rate.

There's no way that you can spin Apple's 18-months-only-or-fuck-off deal as being some kind of great thing for consumers, especially when it's mixed in with bricking threats.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 10, 2008)

It's neither a good thing nor a bad thing for consumers is it? Nobodies forcing you to take up an iphone and nobody shows any sign of following the same restrictions. 

It's just another choice. Not mine, I hasten to add, but I can't see how one new entrant to the market suddenly is blamed for (theoretically) making things worse for the consumer in some way.


----------



## jæd (Jan 10, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> Yes, but you often get a _free phone_ with 18 month contracts and - of course - that's not the only length of contract available. Unlike the iPhone, punters can choose how long they want to their contract to be,  how much they want to pay for the phone itself and at what monthly rate.



Thats because there's only one iPhone. If you looked at single phone on a single carrier you would see a similar lack of choice.




			
				editor said:
			
		

> There's no way that you can spin Apple's 18-months-only-or-fuck-off deal as being some kind of great thing for consumers, especially when it's mixed in with bricking threats.



Well... The chance of user-installable apps is around the corner and other phones have been locked to carriers before. And yes, I've heard of people bricking phones before when they unlocked them badly...

If you don't like the sound of the iPhone then don't get it. I still don't understand the rehashing of the same tired points...  

Personally, compared to the Treo, the iPhone looks increasingly attractive. Its supported a heck of a lot more by Apple than the Treo is by Palm. Its a phone with a future. The Treo is a phone with a great past, and it looks increasingly like Palm aren't interested in its future...


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2008)

jæd said:
			
		

> Thats because there's only one iPhone. If you looked at single phone on a single carrier you would see a similar lack of choice.


Show me one major phone that is only available on one network on a compulsory 18 month contract with a hefty monthly premium and big purchase price then.






			
				jæd said:
			
		

> Well... The chance of user-installable apps is around the corner and other phones have been locked to carriers before.


I'm not going to enter into an expensive 18 month contract with just the hope of _eventually_ ending up with a phone that can do all the basic functions that every other (cheaper) smartphone can do, thanks.

Oh, and other phones have been locked to carriers, but I've never known any come with the threat of intentional  bricking.

But, like you say, we've already been over this, so there's no need for you to respond.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 11, 2008)

jæd said:
			
		

> Hasn't this point be answered and debated about 20 times already in the thread...?


Yeah I tend to not bother with 'points' like that repeated ad nauseam...anyway moving on....


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 11, 2008)

rocketman said:
			
		

> The other thing, if you take a look at the big Mac news websites in the US, the publishers are scared of Apple legal, and their journalists aren't paid enough or given sufficient opportunity to justify digging out the hard news stories (and to be honest. a lot of them just ain't capable of doing that in the first place). So there's this knowledge gap.



Very true, they've had some degree of success in that area, damn shame really, those sites are great fun!


----------



## aboreal (Jan 11, 2008)

I am typing this from my iPod touch. The safari interface is quite pleasant to use and touch screen is not too bad. Obviously you wouldnt want to type an essay on here. Has anyone jailbroke one of these yet? Was it painless?


----------



## Poi E (Jan 11, 2008)

At least it blends 

http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=iphone


----------



## rocketman (Jan 11, 2008)

aboreal said:
			
		

> I am typing this from my iPod touch. The safari interface is quite pleasant to use and touch screen is not too bad. Obviously you wouldnt want to type an essay on here. Has anyone jailbroke one of these yet? Was it painless?



Ach - why bother? First real, tested apps should begin to surface in the next few weeks...


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 11, 2008)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Ach - why bother? First real, tested apps should begin to surface in the next few weeks...




Do you have a link for this?


----------



## rocketman (Jan 11, 2008)

Trust me. I know this stuff.
But here's the evidence:

1. Apple has said it will release a development kit in February
2. That kit is now being tested by selected developers
3. Macworld Expo is next week, when Apple makes announcements
4. I'd consider it unlikely (not impossible) Apple would not use the event to showcase at least one or two applications developed or in development from others for the device.
5. This suggests first apps could appear mid-Feb - so in the next few weeks.

Most likely available through iTunes. But also tried and tested (so shouldn't kill yer fone).


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 11, 2008)

I didn't mean you didn't know it. Just wanted a link that's all. But is it likely that these apps will come at a premium?
From what i gather jailbreaking the ipod touch will not break the device, just give the ability to install some nice apps. The idea of running metasploit on there for example sounds cool. It will not even void the warrenty and if it all goes tits up you can revert to the original firmware via the restore option.
That said i can't be bothered repopulating it with music and photo's again.

Re: the expo, I think the idea of an apple watch would be very interesting. 
But it is only speculation based on a couple of things I have heard and i can't think what else the swiss make.


----------



## jæd (Jan 11, 2008)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Trust me. I know this stuff.



Also widely repeated on most most Apple blogs and websites...


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2008)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> I didn't mean you didn't know it. Just wanted a link that's all. But is it likely that these apps will come at a premium?


I think it's fair to say that any new 'official' iPhone apps won't exactly be priced at the bottom end of the market.

Similar WM programs to Palm apps often cost more and there was, of course, a lot less freeware about.

If someone developed a NoteStudio like app for the iPhone I'd definitely look at it again although I'm not sure if I'll ever get over the lack of keyboard.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jan 11, 2008)

the ipod touch keyboard is not bad actually. Not as great as the one i had on the treo but better than the blackberry pearl. It doesn't like Danish though


----------



## jæd (Jan 11, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> I think it's fair to say that any new 'official' iPhone apps won't exactly be priced at the bottom end of the market.



Well... I'd be expecting them to be priced reasonably, and around the Palm o/s price range. If the app is good, there's a large market hungry for it.

Though this all depends on the SDK produced and how open it is and easy to use...


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2008)

jæd said:
			
		

> Well... I'd be expecting them to be priced reasonably, and around the Palm o/s price range. If the app is good, there's a large market hungry for it.
> 
> Though this all depends on the SDK produced and how open it is and easy to use...


I would have thought that the fatc that the developers have to go through hoops to get the app approved would add extra costs in itself.


----------



## jæd (Jan 11, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> I would have thought that the fatc that the developers have to go through hoops to get the app approved would add extra costs in itself.



Well, it depends on what hoops they would have to go through. Probably best to wait and see what developing an app for the iPhone actually entails before speculating...?


----------



## rocketman (Jan 11, 2008)

jæd said:
			
		

> Also widely repeated on most most Apple blogs and websites...



Yep. That is also true. And sometimes I get repeated also.


----------



## rocketman (Jan 11, 2008)

For apps prices I guess we'd have to look at the cost of games on iPods, which are £4.99. I'd hesitate to say all apps will be that price - it does depend on the utility of the app, and I'd like some (Flash, for example) to be free.
Saying that, price structure is pure speculation.
As per developers jumping hoops to get apps approved, well, surely that occurs on almost any development platform? The hoops (for the most part) will prolly be built into the API.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 11, 2008)

Boris Sprinkler said:
			
		

> the ipod touch keyboard is not bad actually. Not as great as the one i had on the treo but better than the blackberry pearl. It doesn't like Danish though



I found the touch keyboard easier to use than the Treo (buttons too small and close together)...the pearl is a bit fiddly though.


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2008)

"The iPhone - Great at Home, Lousy Abroad"

Lively debate on the BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2008/01/the_iphone_great_at_home_lousy.html


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2008)

In summary an iPhone is an iPhone at home but just phone abroad unless you can find some decent wifi or have deep pockets.

Well shock horror! My old phone was just a phone abroad too. So I'm not exactly losing out. If you travel a lot and want a cheap phone at home at a cheap phone abroad your best bet is probably to buy a cheap PAYG phone in whatever country/ies you frequent.


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2008)

Marius said:
			
		

> Well shock horror! My old phone was just a phone abroad too. So I'm not exactly losing out. If you travel a lot and want a cheap phone at home at a cheap phone abroad your best bet is probably to buy a cheap PAYG phone in whatever country/ies you frequent.


The big difference is that with most phones you can just pop in a SIM of a local network and carry on using your own smartphone.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 14, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> The big difference is that with most phones you can just pop in a SIM of a local network and carry on using your own smartphone.


Big difference indeed.


----------



## rocketman (Jan 14, 2008)

Yeah, greedy mobile companies in customer rip off horror.
And it's worse in the US, as companies there don't have European regulators breathing down their neck demanding cheaper roaming charges. Instead they have the post-BUsh DOJ, and we know how useless they are.
Still, maybe good news (kind of) coming:
http://tinyurl.com/2vwqdr

"Consumers in Spain, the UK, Germany, the Czech Republic and Ireland will benefit from cuts of more than 40% in data roaming prices, while the cost of sending a text message home from anywhere in the European Union falls to a maximum of €0.32 + VAT."


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2008)

Data roaming rates in the US for Europeans are fucking _criminal._


----------



## jæd (Jan 14, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> The big difference is that with most phones you can just pop in a SIM of a local network and carry on using your own smartphone.



Then just take an old phone with you. The upside being that if it get knicked or lost, you haven't lost your iPhone...


----------



## jæd (Jan 14, 2008)

rocketman said:
			
		

> Yeah, greedy mobile companies in customer rip off horror.
> And it's worse in the US, as companies there don't have European regulators breathing down their neck demanding cheaper roaming charges. Instead they have the post-BUsh DOJ, and we know how useless they are.
> Still, maybe good news (kind of) coming:
> http://tinyurl.com/2vwqdr
> ...



It would nice people if people wanting to take their iPhone abroad manage to raise awareness of this...


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2008)

jæd said:
			
		

> Then just take an old phone with you.


That's a really rubbish idea. WTF would I want to drag two phones and two chargers across to the US for?


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> The big difference is that with most phones you can just pop in a SIM of a local network and carry on using your own smartphone.



That is a good point. I also hate the fact i can't swap out a low battery for a fresh one as the case is sealed. 
A very useful ability to have if you are using your only communication device to use use power draining applications such as MP3 and video playing plus surfing the web.

Still i knew there would be sacrifices as Apple design is always primariliy about style over substance.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 14, 2008)

Simplicity over features, I'd say - too far in this case.


----------



## jæd (Jan 14, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> That's a really rubbish idea. WTF would I want to drag two phones and two chargers across to the US for?



Up to you, but the last time I was in the US I took an old nokia to make call on a local SIM card, and my Treo was used as a GPS unit... IMO taking a spare is usually a good idea incase the other breaks. And with the Treo, it#s nice to have a smaller phone when going out and about... 

Its also easier to localised chargers, etc, for Nokias...


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2008)

Marius said:
			
		

> I also hate the fact i can't swap out a low battery for a fresh one as the case is sealed.


That's a pretty enormous issue for me - if I'm going away for a long weekend, I just pack my spare battery and I don't have to worry about chargers/finding a power point etc.


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2008)

jæd said:
			
		

> . IMO taking a spare is usually a good idea incase the other breaks.


You take spare phone out in case your main one _breaks?_

Blimey. Belt and buckles or what?! 

How many times has it happened to you then? I've never broken a phone in my life.


----------



## jæd (Jan 14, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> You take spare phone out in case your main one _breaks?_
> 
> Blimey. Belt and buckles or what?!
> 
> How many times has it happened to you then? I've never broken a phone in my life.



Zero times. But I don't want to have spend time scrabbling around for a replacement if I do... And my old Noka + charger doesn't take any room in suitcase...  Most of the time my Treo stays in the hotel room safe, unless its likely I'm going to need it...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 14, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> That's a really rubbish idea. WTF would I want to drag two phones and two chargers across to the US for?



*smirks* They aint three tons each you know.


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> *smirks* They aint three tons each you know.


What's there to smirk about?



I bought a smartphone so I'd have _less_ stuff to drag around, not more.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 14, 2008)

In other news, O2 aren't allowed to tell anyone how badly it's selling: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01/14/o2_carphone_warehouse_iphone_sales_ban/


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2008)

mauvais said:
			
		

> In other news, O2 aren't allowed to tell anyone how badly it's selling: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01/14/o2_carphone_warehouse_iphone_sales_ban/


A "Gagging Order"! 

That sure sounds like sales figures are nowhere near as high as expected.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 14, 2008)

You must all be very be very carfull with you phones. I've killed my last 4. Last two nokias with mositure damage apparently, never submerged them, just being a wet atmosphere like my pocket I think. Other two the screens died, one blatently my fault (dropped), the other was a motorola with a large touchscreen, just took it out my my pocket one day to find it black. Normally they die around the 10 month mark.

That said there is a good market on ebay for damaged recent smartphones, never got less the £30 for a broken handset, best was £55 for the A1000.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 14, 2008)

Global_Stoner said:
			
		

> You must all be very be very carfull with you phones. I've killed my last 4. Last two nokias with mositure damage apparently, never submerged them, just being a wet atmosphere like my pocket I think. Other two the screens died, one blatently my fault (dropped), the other was a motorola with a large touchscreen, just took it out my my pocket one day to find it black. Normally they die around the 10 month mark.
> 
> That said there is a good market on ebay for damaged recent smartphones, never got less the £30 for a broken handset, best was £55 for the A1000.



Thats coz they are good and cheap sources of working spares for shops. Way cheaper than off the manufacturer.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 14, 2008)

Yep. As predicted by many on these boards, Brits weren't won over as easily as their European and US counterparts. Hurrah for British indifference!

That said, it compares well to smartphone sales over here, not that many have been tearing up the market. The oft given away N95 is perhaps the only exception.


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2008)

Global_Stoner said:
			
		

> You must all be very be very carfull with you phones. I've killed my last 4. Last two nokias with mositure damage apparently, never submerged them, just being a wet atmosphere like my pocket I think.


I bash my phones to fuck, carry them everywhere, bung them in my bag and never use screen protectors or cases, and my 2 year old Treo's still growing strong.

The thing that used to piss me off most about phones was when the display filled up with tons of dust.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 14, 2008)

I've knackered _loads _of phones. My current SE K750i is made out of at least three phones - a mainboard from one, a case from another, a Bluetooth aerial from a third, and some firmware I downloaded. Well, they might fall to bits but you can replace all the components yourself.


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2008)

tarannau said:
			
		

> That said, it compares well to smartphone sales over here, not that many have been tearing up the market.


Nokia's sell in chuffing enormous crateloads and the Sony Ericsson k series has sold well in the UK too, just without all the iFuss.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 14, 2008)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Simplicity over features, I'd say - too far in this case.



No, no, the iTouch is great at what it does. The iPod has been great at what it does for ages and thats still essentially undimmed.

The iPhone, should have been release as a standalone 3g product for any network for not much more than the iTouch.  I reckon that it would have got a lot of plaudits and a lot of users keen on the music/video/phone/web thing. 

In its current formation, its a niche product and until they get rid of the restrictions, it will stay that way.  

This all goes back to the DRM debate.  Using an open format is what made the iPod so desirable in the 1st place, so there is an irony to their lack of sales based upon locked down hardware platform.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 14, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> I bash my phones to fuck, carry them everywhere, bung them in my bag and never use screen protectors or cases, and my 2 year old Treo's still growing strong.
> 
> The thing that used to piss me off most about phones was when the display filled up with tons of dust.




Worth knowing about, never used Palm, but they do seem to keep going. That said if I kill the E61 I'm not sure I'll get another smartphone, may just get something like the old nokia 5140 (rubber one) and look at something like an eee pc (or similar) for my mobile requirments. 

Before when networks handed them out it seemed to make sense to play with the latest technology, but with discounts on sim only contracts, it doesnt make as much sense.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 14, 2008)

Sunray said:
			
		

> This all goes back to the DRM debate.  Using an open format is what made the iPod so desirable in the 1st place, so there is an irony to their lack of sales based upon locked down hardware platform.


Indeed.

DRM in music is toast - Amazon have just recently managed to convince the last of the big four, Sony, to drop theirs in order to sell via them. Why anyone would think it's a good idea now, I don't know. I always thought it was technical reasons, i.e. if you could write any old software, you'd find out it was because the device had shit capabilities, but I guess that remains to be seen.


----------



## jæd (Jan 14, 2008)

Sunray said:
			
		

> The iPhone, should have been release as a standalone 3g product for any network for not much more than the iTouch.  I reckon that it would have got a lot of plaudits and a lot of users keen on the music/video/phone/web thing.



It would then not launch until June 2008 and probably be very expensive. 




			
				Sunray said:
			
		

> This all goes back to the DRM debate.  Using an open format is what made the iPod so desirable in the 1st place, so there is an irony to their lack of sales based upon locked down hardware platform.



You'd have minority of people whining that its too expensive and doesn't have xyz feature...


----------



## Sunray (Jan 14, 2008)

jæd said:
			
		

> It would then not launch until June 2008 and probably be very expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> You'd have minority of people whining that its too expensive and doesn't have xyz feature...



It hardly any more expensive to build than the iTouch, thats been shown.  Can't please all the people all the time, but you can have a go.  The iPhone has had nothing but middling reviews, mainly down to the restrictions.

I actually look forward to the day when its entirely restriction free, i might actually consider it.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2008)

I'm guessing the reason why the iPhone wasn't first released as 3g is that EDGE makes it accessible to more people. There isn't as much 3G coverage about. Going for the biggest market possible first.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 14, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> What's there to smirk about?
> 
> 
> 
> I bought a smartphone so I'd have _less_ stuff to drag around, not more.



I was at the office so couldn't roll on the floor loling at your over the top rant about something so small and lightweight as a phone charger.


----------



## jæd (Jan 14, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I was at the office so couldn't roll on the floor loling at your over the top rant about something so small and lightweight as a phone charger.



My old nokia + charger usually travel in a shoe in my suitcase...


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I was at the office so couldn't roll on the floor loling at your over the top rant about something so small and lightweight as a phone charger.


I've no idea how you can view me expressing my personal preference to not lug a second phone/charger around as a "rant," but if it's causing you to "smirk" and _"roll on the floor loling"_ I suggest you seek medical attention promptly.

Not everyone is a geeky as you and wants to carry around two phones on a holiday, you know. Some of us already carry around 'nuff chargers and cables.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 14, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> I've no idea how you can view me expressing my personal preference to not lug a second phone/charger around as a "rant," but if it's causing you to "smirk" and _"roll on the floor loling"_ I suggest you seek medical attention promptly.
> 
> Not everyone is a geeky as you and wants to carry around two phones on a holiday, you know. Some of us already carry around 'nuff chargers and cables.



Well you said drag I don't know about you but I only drag things that are heavy, hence my mirth at your rant. As for your geek 'dig' well I'll take it as a compliment coming from the likes of you.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 14, 2008)

jæd said:
			
		

> My old nokia + charger usually travel in a shoe in my suitcase...



I hire a seperate boeing 747 to fly mine because of the sheer garguntuan weight of the things...


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Well you said drag I don't know about you but I only drag things that are heavy, hence my mirth at your rant.


'Drag' doesn't always mean 'heavy', silly boy. 

Any chance of you getting on topic any time soon, btw?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 14, 2008)

editor said:
			
		

> 'Drag' doesn't always mean 'heavy', silly boy.
> 
> Any chance of you getting on topic any time soon, btw?



Silly boy, you are Lock + Light and I claim my £5! 

On topic, I already am.


----------



## jæd (Jan 14, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I hire a seperate boeing 747 to fly mine because of the sheer garguntuan weight of the things...



To be fair, my Treo charger is nearly 16 ft long, and 8 ft wide. (On topic...)


----------



## paolo (Jan 15, 2008)

Errm, anyway. At the risk of going off topic...  

My predictions for tomorrow, iPhone announcements (Jobs' Keynote, Macworld Expo San Francisco):

- 16Gb iPhone (and 32Gb iPod Touch) fairly likely. This assumes Samsung 16Gb NAND chips have been shipping in volume.

- 1.1.3 iPhone Feature demo. Very likely. "Locate Me" faux GPS; plus some 'tick box' features: Not just multi-recipient SMS, but _maybe_ Copy and Paste.

- _No_ 3G... Broadcom chips not shipping in volume (I think). It's definitely coming, but no manufacturer will pre-announce something that will cannibalise existing sales.

And maybe some other more superfluous stuff (e.g. iTunes store related, but not iPhone specific.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm still going with ultra portable laptop, $500, thin as hell. Like Jaed I think it'll come without an optical drive.


----------



## rocketman (Jan 15, 2008)

I have a fantasy of Apple hiring all the Holllywood writers and launching an international TV channel


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 15, 2008)

Heh that'd be fucking funny! Imagine Murdochs surprise!


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 15, 2008)

BREAKING NEWS: A nuclear bomb had just exploded over Cupertino.  Earliest reports claim the bomb is Australian made...


----------



## untethered (Jan 15, 2008)

Xanadu said:
			
		

> BREAKING NEWS: A nuclear bomb had just exploded over Cupertino.  Earliest reports claim the bomb is Australian made...



Rupert Murdoch is now an American.


----------



## paolo (Jan 15, 2008)

Also (on the iPhone side of things), maybe some kind of demo based around the SDK. e.g. a beta application.


----------



## paolo (Jan 15, 2008)

Well, hot on the heels of the 1.1.3 demo at Macworld Expo SF, Apple have promptly released the new version.

The biggest interest for me... the "Locate Me" feature. Faux GPS, based on cell triangulation.

I really didn't expect this to work in the UK. Jobs presentation revealed that - in the US at least - part of the methodology is based on Skyhook Wireless' mapping of WiFi hotspots in the US. With their European survey/DB not yet done (and of course the lack of Hotspots outside anything but the most dense city areas), I was expecting this to be a US only feature, similar to the traffic info.

Well, I was wrong. And what very pleasant surprise it is too.

I've just tried it.

In less than 10 seconds, it had found me.

By switching to the satellite view, I could then check how accurately.

Amazingly - given that is is "pretend GPS"... 5 Metres.

This is _very_ niice. A "find" time that gives GPS satellite acquisition a very good run for it's money, and quite possibly, no significant battery hit.

It's not GPS, and there's no "turn by turn" stuff - it's not a navigation system - but as a free bonus feature, it's very neat indeed.


----------



## editor (Jan 15, 2008)

paolo999 said:
			
		

> The biggest interest for me... the "Locate Me" feature. Faux GPS, based on cell triangulation.
> 
> I really didn't expect this to work in the UK.


Why ever not? Vodafone has been offering this in the UK for some time, tightly integrated with their location based services. Need to find a local cinema? Get out your phone and you'll promptly have a listing of the local cinemas, plus film listings and film times. Works for cabs, restaurants, pub etc etc. I was very impressed with it.

Most smartphones using Google Maps have also been able to access the 'faux GPS' feature for free for some time in the UK too.


----------



## dogmatique (Jan 15, 2008)

On first attempt, the locate me function failed miserably.  I'm somewhere in a circle which includes Effra Road, Streatham High Road, Balham High Road and Thurlow Park Road.  Rubbish.  Surely there's plenty of masts within that which would pinpoint it more closely.

Will have to try in central London tomorrow.

ETA: Take it back.  First attempt at my desk, not near a window. Went to the front of the house and was pinpointed to within about 5 meters within 5 seconds.  Pretty impressive.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2008)

Ooh is the update out now? I tried earlier and it wasn't. Right I'm DL'ing now.

Multiple Txts will soon be mine again. At last!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 15, 2008)

Google maps mobile has that too...


----------



## editor (Jan 15, 2008)

Marius said:
			
		

> Ooh is the update out now? I tried earlier and it wasn't. Right I'm DL'ing now.
> 
> Multiple Txts will soon be mine again. At last!


Here's the list of updates:



> # Maps: New hybrid view, same as Google Maps. Satellite imagery and street mapping available on a single view.
> # Maps: Location triangulation. Uses nearby WiFi access points and GSM towers (on the iPhone, anyway) to roughly guesstimate your current location.
> # Web Clips: Web bookmarks can now be saved as home screen icons, including zoom and location information.
> # Home screen: Icons on the home screen can now be rearranged.
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2008)

Looks like O2 are getting their act together tariff and data tariff wise, so much so I might consider going back to them in future (they had excellent coverage and very good customer service):



> Today O2 announced it's introducing a new pricing structure across the network, which will see six new, apparently simpler, tariffs and free voicemail made available to all existing and new customers from 1 February.
> 
> This tariff restructuring will also affect the current iPhone tariffs, giving existing users on the cheapest £35 per month contract three times more minutes (600) and double the number of texts (400).
> 
> ...


----------



## ska invita (Jan 29, 2008)

My mate jsut got one of these, and says the battery doesnt last a whole day, even on full charge.

Anyone else had that experience?


----------



## dogmatique (Jan 29, 2008)

No.  Though it ain't great if you do a lot of browsing.  Screen uses up a lotta power...


----------



## kropotkin (Jan 29, 2008)

> Furthermore, non-iPhone O2 customers who pay for 600 minutes or more per month will be offered a free bolt-on service, which includes either unlimited data, unlimited texts or unlimited weekend calls. If you're on a lower contract these will cost you £7.50 per month.



unlimited data!
That is pretty good. I'll be sticking with O2 then


----------



## Crispy (Jan 29, 2008)

orange. get with the programme


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2008)

Crispy said:


> orange. get with the programme



They're the only one now right? Vodafone, 3, O2 and of course T Mobile all offer flat rate unlimited (although I don't know how big that is for others networks but T Mobile is 1gb) net access.


----------



## Dask (Jan 29, 2008)

I've been an Orange customer for 11 years. I think the time has come to move away.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2008)

Dask said:


> I've been an Orange customer for 11 years. I think the time has come to move away.



I left years ago because I was sick of the shit coverage and crap tariff.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 29, 2008)

I keep asking for my PAC, and then either missing it in the post, or not getting round to switching


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2008)

Crispy said:


> I keep asking for my PAC, and then either missing it in the post, or not getting round to switching



That's a bit shit, when I left O2 they sent it via text message to me within 24 hours of request. Phone them and ask them to do the same and threaten them with going to Watchdog or writing to Which if they refuse.


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 29, 2008)

Orange will do free evening and weekend data on some tariffs.  They'll also do 30Mb for £8.  It's a ripoff, but I've had good connections on their network.


----------



## rocketman (Jan 29, 2008)

ska invita said:


> My mate jsut got one of these, and says the battery doesnt last a whole day, even on full charge.
> 
> Anyone else had that experience?



Well, if you just carry it around like a phone it lasts A.G.E.S...but you don't do that - you check your email constantly, hit on YouTube, listen to music, check the web, use it as an alarm clock, directions finder, source phone numbers for cabs, check the weather, read your Facebook messages...yadda Yadda, truth is, you use the features on this phone, so you do find yourself recharging it as the more you use it the more the power drains. Any other mobile is the same - if you actually use the device's features, the power gets used up faster.


----------



## editor (Jan 29, 2008)

It's a shame it's not possible to use third party extended batteries for the iPhone. I bought a 2400mAhbattery for my Treo and it lasts *ages* even when I'm hammering the thing (but then there's no Wi-Fi on the Treo).


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2008)

WiFi is the the thing that seriously fucks the battery life on my Vario II, for normal emailing/browsing/calls/organiser I get 2 days use out of it, if I use the WiFi I can struggle to get a full day.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2008)

editor said:


> (but then there's no Wi-Fi on the Treo).



You've got a 650 right? Also 3G really hits the battery hard too...


----------



## Dask (Jan 30, 2008)

editor said:


> It's a shame it's not possible to use third party extended batteries for the iPhone. I bought a 2400mAhbattery for my Treo and it lasts *ages* even when I'm hammering the thing (but then there's no Wi-Fi on the Treo).



Someone should produce an add on, that connects to the dock connector to act as a second battery.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 30, 2008)

They already exist don't they? Belkin used to do one that held two AA batteries, but there are a few on the market iirc.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 30, 2008)

Yay it looks like apple are going to save me £140. 
Mid march the tarriffs are being upgraded. 
Ill be able to switch from my £45 tariff to the £35 one and have the number of txts I need.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 30, 2008)

A conversion to the iPhone writes...


----------



## ska invita (Jan 30, 2008)

I had a go on my friends one today - lots of fun - the sideways screen thing is very clever.

Only problems i can see are typing is tricky, particularly if you dont have dainty little fingers. Also, how do you get to do punctuation type things? (!"£$%(^(^)(£"$<>?><) - there must be a way, jsut couldnt find it.

Im still dubious about battery life - I had a similiar problem with my ipod - as did hundreds of others. Not just charge/use time, but I wonder what kind of lifespan it has. Especially as this a first generation thing, they usually throw a few 'bugs' in there to make you get the next one.

Its definitely set the standard. If ever i get a snazzy wifi device like this (in years to come) I think I would prefer one with a keyboard.

having said all that, and as someone very cynical towards apple for a number of reasons, I think this is a pretty dazzling toy. likethe guy in the article above says, its fun.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2008)

ska invita said:


> Its definitely set the standard. If ever i get a snazzy wifi device like this (in years to come) I think I would prefer one with a keyboard.


If they stuck a keyboard on it and made the battery removable, I'd be very interested!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 30, 2008)

For me to actually consider getting one it'd have to

a) be 3G
b) have at least 32gb of storage
c) be free or very cheap (I aint paying nearly 300 quid for any fucking phone!) on a contract

When all the above happens if there's nothing like it on the market I'd probably get one...


----------



## jæd (Jan 31, 2008)

ska invita said:


> Only problems i can see are typing is tricky, particularly if you dont have dainty little fingers. Also, how do you get to do punctuation type things? (!"£$%(^(^)(£"$<>?><) - there must be a way, jsut couldnt find it.



From the numerical keypad there's an extra keypad for punctuation...



ska invita said:


> Im still dubious about battery life - I had a similiar problem with my ipod - as did hundreds of others. Not just charge/use time, but I wonder what kind of lifespan it has.



Only up to the second generation. My last iPod Classic would last a good couple of days.



ska invita said:


> Especially as this a first generation thing, they usually throw a few 'bugs' in there to make you get the next one.



Nope. Bugs occur in the development process due to a number of factors but aren't introduced manually. Apple are also issuing firmware updates fairly frequently...


----------



## rocketman (Jan 31, 2008)

The predictive texting is very good. Basically, trust it - 9/10 it will select the right word even if you type it wrong, and all it takes is a touch if you want to use the word you've spelt - and that word is then added to the dictionary. Though an essay-writing tool it ain't.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 31, 2008)

I had a moment yesterday when I thought of buying an iPhone and cracking it, then I took some pills...

I feel better now.


----------



## rocketman (Jan 31, 2008)

Still better?
Must be great pills - they don't usually create illusions that last that long these days.


----------



## Structaural (Jan 31, 2008)

some new competitor:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/30/garmin-announces-the-nuviphone/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 31, 2008)

Structaural said:


> some new competitor:
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/30/garmin-announces-the-nuviphone/



That looks like one the old palm pdas...


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 31, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:


> For me to actually consider getting one it'd have to
> 
> a) be 3G
> b) have at least 32gb of storage
> ...



Just need 3G for me to consider it now.  They've got the multiple texting now.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 31, 2008)

rocketman said:


> Still better?
> Must be great pills - they don't usually create illusions that last that long these days.



No valium, calmed me down after an 'Impulse buying an iPhone' moment.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 31, 2008)

Xanadu said:


> Just need 3G for me to consider it now.  They've got the multiple texting now.



I can live without 3G. Edge is fast enough for most out and about browsing needs and I care not about video calls or any of that. 

All I really want now to make it my perfect phone is picture messaging and a txt forwarding option and the option to easily switch on and off graphics whilst browsing. Copy n paste option would be nice too.


----------



## rocketman (Jan 31, 2008)

Marius said:


> I can live without 3G. Edge is fast enough for most out and about browsing needs and I care not about video calls or any of that.
> 
> All I really want now to make it my perfect phone is picture messaging and a txt forwarding option and the option to easily switch on and off graphics whilst browsing. Copy n paste option would be nice too.



I agree across the board with you there Marius.

I'd add - enabling video capture with the camera, the capacity to send video messages, and the ability to use the iPhone to connect your Mac to a 3G network, once they put 3G into the device 

(which i reckon they'll do before launching it in Japan, where 3G is something else)


----------



## Gumbert (Jan 31, 2008)

*fuck apple*

iphones, i found too my cost, are marketed in a very irrational way. 

While i was in the states over xmas the family splashed out on the iphone for me dad. We thought with stirling against the dollar being so high we would get a deal with 100£ off.

Well we did, then, problems emerged when we arrived back on these shores. We logged onto the itunes website which then took us automatically to at&t and the tariff page. When we needed the monopoliser O2 for use of the iphone over here. Both apple and o2 told us that we had a US sim card and what was needed was a UK o2 sim. Sounds simple dunit? Is it fuck.....You Void the contract if you try an crack it open so we were fucked.

Okay, okay, i hear the techies saying 'we could of told you that'.... But i think its a bit shitty in the 'globalised commodity market' that the fuckers at apple had not accounted for this glitch, or if they did - they surely are a bunch of cynical entreprenuers!

In the end we sent the phone back across the pond and claimed back the hard earned dosh and not thought twice about gettin the shitty apple ripoff thing again...


----------



## tarannau (Jan 31, 2008)

Eh, I feel bad for you, but what's irrational about the marketing?

I've not heard anything about Apple covering up its exclusive carrier arrangements, anything but in fact - they're entirely transparent. Would you honestly expect to buy a phone contract in the US and it to apply in the UK?

It's not really a glitch in any way. Restrictive perhaps, but buying a mobile phone from another country and expecting it work easily is a little daft imo.


----------



## jæd (Jan 31, 2008)

Gumbert said:


> Both apple and o2 told us that we had a US sim card and what was needed was a UK o2 sim. Sounds simple dunit? Is it fuck.....You Void the contract if you try an crack it open so we were fucked.



You can replace the SIM card by sliding out the tray with a paper-clip...


----------



## jæd (Jan 31, 2008)

tarannau said:


> I've not heard anything about Apple covering up its exclusive carrier arrangements, anything but in fact - they're entirely transparent. Would you honestly expect to buy a phone contract in the US and it to apply in the UK?
> 
> It's not really a glitch in any way. Restrictive perhaps, but buying a mobile phone from another country and expecting it work easily is a little daft imo.



I've asked sales reps in At&T and Apple stores in the US "if I buy an Iphone here, can I connect to the UK network". They've both said "No". 

If you're buying a high price item abroad, *always* double check it will work locally...


----------



## Gumbert (Jan 31, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Would you honestly expect to buy a phone contract in the US and it to apply in the UK?
> 
> It's not really a glitch in any way. _Restrictive_ perhaps, but buying a mobile phone from another country and expecting it work easily is a little daft imo.



Get you on the restrictive....eggsfeckinzackly...we were restricted in using it, period.

Yes, 'you'll say - didnt you know that would happen'. But think about it a mo... 

Apple sells the ithing for more over here than over there. They let the highest bidder over here monopolise the contract, fit sims that are not universal, or no attempt is made for the sim to be universal, unlike other makes: nokia, sony ericson, etal....

They're making massive profits at our ignorant grasp of technology in the global marketplace and laugh all the way to the bad credit ridden banks...


----------



## Sunray (Jan 31, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Eh, I feel bad for you, but what's irrational about the marketing?
> 
> I've not heard anything about Apple covering up its exclusive carrier arrangements, anything but in fact - they're entirely transparent. Would you honestly expect to buy a phone contract in the US and it to apply in the UK?
> 
> It's not really a glitch in any way. Restrictive perhaps, but _* buying a mobile phone from another country and expecting it work easily is a little daft imo.*_



Not its not.  What other phone can you buy without a contract that you cant use just about everywhere in the room.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 31, 2008)

Well, any non tri-band phone until fairly recently. US phones were pretty archaic in the main. 

Whats' this about the room btw?


----------



## jæd (Jan 31, 2008)

Gumbert said:


> They let the highest bidder over here monopolise the contract, fit sims that are not universal, or no attempt is made for the sim to be universal, unlike other makes: nokia, sony ericson, etal....



The SIM card the phone contains will work anywhere. Its just the phone that is locked...



Gumbert said:


> They're making massive profits at our ignorant grasp of technology in the global marketplace and laugh all the way to the bad credit ridden banks...



Nope. A quick search on Google, as well as talking to At&T/Apple employees will tell you the restrictions...


----------



## tarannau (Jan 31, 2008)

Gumbert said:


> Get you on the restrictive....eggsfeckinzackly...we were restricted in using it, period.
> 
> Yes, 'you'll say - didnt you know that would happen'. But think about it a mo...
> 
> ...



Eh? I still don't get you really. You went to the US and bought an iphone on an 18 month AT&T contract and you were going to dump that contract and buy another one in the UK.

Forget about Apple being restictive, how did you think the conversion (& more) saving would make up for the fact that you were going to have to pay for two premium phone contracts at once?


----------



## Gumbert (Jan 31, 2008)

i take your point...

but it doesnt negate 'we were ignorant to the fact' that you can't rig up a US iphone to 02 over here...

Where in their marketing to they tell you these little things? They dont, do they, and probbably wouldnt because thats not how corporations work innit?!

It is a seroius headache for little *consumers* of international goods like us, capitalism i'm loving it...


----------



## tarannau (Jan 31, 2008)

Well it's fucking obvious isn't it. They did a big song and dance that AT&T were the exclusive carrier in the US and an equally obvious campaign tying the iphone to 02 (and the Craphone Whorehouse) in the UK. Plenty of press outcry too.

Really, it's not exactly rocket science to work out what 'exclusive' meant, nor that the lack of AT&T over here could present a problem.


----------



## jæd (Jan 31, 2008)

Gumbert said:


> i take your point...
> 
> but it doesnt negate 'we were ignorant to the fact' that you can't rig up a US iphone to 02 over here...
> 
> ...






			
				Apple said:
			
		

> Can I “unlock” iPhone and use it with another wireless carrier?
> 
> AT&T is the exclusive wireless carrier for iPhone in the United States. If you currently use another wireless carrier, you can choose to transfer your number when you activate your AT&T account.


http://www.apple.com/iphone/questionsandanswers.html

And, as mentioned, it take two seconds to ask the sales rep...


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## Gumbert (Jan 31, 2008)

still doesnt mention, US iphone sim is non compatible with uk 02, even apple deny they can do anything....

bonkers

off to the flicks, no country for old men these boards..


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## tarannau (Jan 31, 2008)

Is this is a windup? Why would they specifically mention US-UK phone sim compatibility when there's mention of (expensive) exclusive contracts on both sides of the pond - surely you must have realised any saving on the initial cost of the ipod would be eaten up by having to run two consecutive contracts?


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## jæd (Jan 31, 2008)

Gumbert said:


> still doesnt mention, US iphone sim is non compatible with uk 02, even apple deny they can do anything....



*sigh* You're confusing compatibility with being able to unlock it... And if you had unlocked the iPhone you could've of put any SIM card into it. A mate did this when the iPhone first came out in the US and uses it here...



Gumbert said:


> off to the flicks, no country for old men these boards..



If you don't want to research a purchase of over $200, you'll get the fruits of that research...


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## Gromit (Jan 31, 2008)

Gumbert said:


> i take your point...
> 
> but it doesnt negate 'we were ignorant to the fact' that you can't rig up a US iphone to 02 over here...
> 
> ...


 
You are moaning about the fact that a company is protecting their UK market.

I summerise your post as:

"We thought we could get one by on Apple by buying their product where it was cheaper and importing it and am gutted that they weren't dumb enough to not protect themselves from that"

If they agree a deal in the UK with a carrier and its possible to go abroad and get it £100s cheaper cause of exchange rates then what happens is that random opportunist companies import them in in container loads and undercut the official provider. Why be surprised that they don't want that to happen?

They are far from the only ones who do this either. You can't use UK games on a unchipped US import Xbox 360 for example.


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## paolo (Jan 31, 2008)

Marius said:


> Yay it looks like apple are going to save me £140.
> Mid march the tarriffs are being upgraded.
> Ill be able to switch from my £45 tariff to the £35 one and have the number of txts I need.



Me same. I don't quite use the mins on the (old) £45 rate, so the £35 tariff would suit me fine.

If you enquire/do it soon... please post back to say you got on. (My distrust for telcos makes me think there will be probs downgrading, but I hope not.)


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## ska invita (Jan 31, 2008)

Just heard that UK Iphone users are going to get three times as much "free" calls and texts - the reason is NOT that the iphone isnt selling as well as expect, say o2


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## rocketman (Feb 1, 2008)

Let's face it - making the tariffs more attractive does at least show it's worth complaining if the price ain't right. The call allowances before were pretty rubbish. Now they are better. 

Right now we have
Web apps for iPhone - check, supported
Apps for iPhone - SDK this month
Better tariffs - check
Cheaper phone? Perhaps later this month, most likely later this year when the 3G model ships and the old version gets a discount.


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 1, 2008)

rocketman said:


> Let's face it - making the tariffs more attractive does at least show it's worth complaining if the price ain't right. The call allowances before were pretty rubbish. Now they are better.
> 
> Right now we have
> Web apps for iPhone - check, supported
> ...



Yep and the amusing irony is that some of this is helped by the iBacklash brigade who just love to tell Apple what they've done wrong!


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## editor (Feb 1, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yep and the amusing irony is that some of this is helped by the iBacklash brigade who just love to tell Apple what they've done wrong!


What on earth are you talking about?

I'd suggest that the price cuts were rather more driven by disappointing sales of the iPhone and increasing competition rather than some deep concern about the "iBacklash brigade", whatever the fuck they are.


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 1, 2008)

editor said:


> What on earth are you talking about?
> 
> I'd suggest that the price cuts were rather more driven by disappointing sales of the iPhone and increasing competition rather than some deep concern about the "iBacklash brigade", whatever the fuck they are.



I'm talking about the complaints generally on the net about the lack of features. 

Apple must love it; its free focus grouping and all they have to do is pick the points that get the most noise and announce it to the faithful as new features and their core consumers are happy (and shareholders laughing).

The iBacklash brigade play an important role even if they are essentially working for Apple.

Huge irony from where I sit that.


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## editor (Feb 1, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Apple must love it; its free focus grouping and all they have to do is pick the points that get the most noise and announce it to the faithful as new features and their core consumers are happy (and shareholders laughing).


I wouldn't say that people loudly pointing out the serious and obvious shortcomings of a phone are doing the manufacturers any favours myself.

Or do you _really_ think that Apple were blissfully aware of some of the missing features and needed a 'free focus group' to learn that consumers would want more apps for their hugely expensive phones and that disappointing UK  sales would need price cuts?

You must think Apple are idiots.


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## jæd (Feb 1, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I'm talking about the complaints generally on the net about the lack of features.
> 
> Apple must love it; its free focus grouping and all they have to do is pick the points that get the most noise and announce it to the faithful as new features and their core consumers are happy (and shareholders laughing).
> 
> ...



Unlikely. Firstly, Apple (as do many other companies, large or small) have a policy of not interacting on non-company user-forums. Secondly, geeks who sit around on discussion boards aren't the target market for this product... Finally, using properly conducted focus groups allows you a degree of comeback if you get it all wrong...


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 1, 2008)

editor said:


> I wouldn't say that people loudly pointing out the serious and obvious shortcomings of a phone are doing the manufacturers any favours myself.
> 
> Or do you _really_ think that Apple were blissfully aware of some of the missing features and needed a 'free focus group' to learn that consumers would want more apps for their hugely expensive phones and that disappointing UK  sales would need price cuts?
> 
> *You must think Apple are idiots.*



Nope but I think the people that spend their time bitching endlessly or the faithful who lap up the Apple love at every opportunity are.


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## editor (Feb 1, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Nope but I think the people that spend their time bitching endlessly or the faithful who lap up the Apple love at every opportunity are.


Not me. I think they're a very smart company with some of the best PR in the world.


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 5, 2008)

*16GB iPhone to launch?*

The iPhone is slowly edging toward something I'd consider buying...but 1.30pm has passed and nothing on the O2 site....



> Blog sites are claiming that Apple is about to unleash the much-rumoured 16GB version of the iPhone in the UK today.
> 
> Apparently due to go on sale in all UK O2 stores nationwide from 1.30pm, the price tag for the new model is said to be £329.
> 
> It has been seen as only a matter of time before Apple upped the memory capacity of the iPhone, especially as the similarly built iPod touch is available as a 16GB model.


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## editor (Feb 5, 2008)

£329 plus a compulsory expensive 18 month contract?! You must be made of money!


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## jæd (Feb 5, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:


> The iPhone is slowly edging toward something I'd consider buying...but 1.30pm has passed and nothing on the O2 site....



16 Gb iPhone + 32 Gb Touch on the US Apple Store. (But not on the UK store). They must be waiting for approval from the EU on these...


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## jæd (Feb 5, 2008)

editor said:


> £329 plus a compulsory expensive 18 month contract?! You must be made of money!



*sigh* You can bu... Nope. Can't be arsed to go through this for the n-th time.


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 5, 2008)

It's official: http://www.apple.com/iphone/


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 5, 2008)

editor said:


> £329 plus a compulsory expensive 18 month contract?! You must be made of money!



I said slowly edges, it's not there yet by a long shot (I want at least 32gbs, 3G, no more than £200, and a 12 month contract, figure that'll be about another 24 months before that happens)...


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## editor (Feb 5, 2008)

jæd said:


> *sigh* You can bu... Nope. Can't be arsed to go through this for the n-th time.


Then shut it. The only legal terms the iPhone is offered in the UK is as I've described. Users are of course free to risk their phones by committing to a lifetime of endless fiddling about with 'jailbreak' software for every firmware upgrade.


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## editor (Feb 5, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I said slowly edges, it's not there yet by a long shot (I want at least 32gbs, 3G, no more than £200, and a 12 month contract, figure that'll be about another 24 months before that happens)...


It might come earlier than that, given the speed the mobile market works at, but I couldn't see me ever committing to an 18month contract with anyone.


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## jæd (Feb 5, 2008)

editor said:


> Then shut it.



I'm guessing someone didn't get out of bed on the correct side today...?


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## jæd (Feb 5, 2008)

editor said:


> It might come earlier than that, given the speed the mobile market works at, but I couldn't see me ever committing to an 18month contract with anyone.



Why not...? Unless it was for an IPhone you'd be able to use whichever phone you wanted...


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## editor (Feb 5, 2008)

jæd said:


> Why not...? Unless it was for an IPhone you'd be able to use whichever phone you wanted...


That doesn't even make sense. Phones are generally offered free/cheap with a contract, usually starting at 12 months. I've no idea what you're on about.


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## jæd (Feb 5, 2008)

editor said:


> That doesn't even make sense. Phones are generally offered free/cheap with a contract, usually starting at 12 months. I've no idea what you're on about.



Yep, but you can upgrade the phone independently at any time... Monthly charges are usually lower for 18 month contracts...


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## editor (Feb 5, 2008)

jæd said:


> Yep, but you can upgrade the phone independently at any time... Monthly charges are usually lower for 18 month contracts...


If you want to pay double for a phone, yes.


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## Crispy (Feb 5, 2008)

They're not lower for this phone though are they?


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## jæd (Feb 5, 2008)

editor said:


> If you want to pay double for a phone, yes.



Again it depends on different deals, and where you get your phone from, etc (eg Ebay)... Plus it gives good leverage when you want a better deal from your phone company...


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 5, 2008)

editor said:


> It might come earlier than that, given the speed the mobile market works at, but I couldn't see me ever committing to an 18month contract with anyone.



Sure, hence my criteria for owning one.


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## editor (Feb 5, 2008)

jæd said:


> Plus it gives good leverage when you want a better deal from your phone company...


Only after you've spent 18 months paying premium whack.


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## Dask (Feb 5, 2008)

Why does this thread go on for 69 pages?

With the same for/against arguments being regurgitated again and again?

edit: This is exactly the what Apple want I guess. They probably held back the features just so that people would talk about it over and over again on message boards, blogs etc


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## jæd (Feb 5, 2008)

editor said:


> Only after you've spent 18 months paying premium whack.



Depending on the deal + provider... And yes, I have looked into this previously... If you're not convinced then do the math yourself...


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## jæd (Feb 5, 2008)

Dask said:


> Why does this thread go on for 69 pages?
> 
> With the same for/against arguments being regurgitated again and again?



I pointed this out in post #5532...


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## editor (Feb 5, 2008)

jæd said:


> I pointed this out in post #5532...


...and then promptly carried on regurgitating the same arguments.


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## jæd (Feb 5, 2008)

editor said:


> ...and then promptly carried on regurgitating the same arguments.



1) My previous post was meant to be a joke, humourous, a "quip"...

2) I've pointed previously that this discussion has been going around in circles and tried to break out of it. When I mentioned this I was told that was what this board was for.... 

3) Why are you so antognistic on every point...? It really does drag discussion down. 

Anyhow. Have your own round-in-circles, mine-is-the-only-point-worth having discussion.

<unsubscribes>


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 5, 2008)

They've upped the touch to 32gb, good stuff...


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## editor (Feb 5, 2008)

Kid_Eternity said:


> They've upped the touch to 32gb, good stuff...


There's been reports about Apple massively reducing its profit forecast as the portable music player market reaches saturation, but it has to be said nothing's come close to matching the style of their devices really in the mass consumer market.

With very few exceptions, most other brand players look rubbish in comparison, even if some do offer better feature sets.


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 5, 2008)

editor said:


> There's been reports about Apple massively reducing its profit forecast as the portable music player market reaches saturation, but it has to be said nothing's come close to matching the style of their devices really in the mass consumer market.
> 
> With very few exceptions, most other brand players look rubbish in comparison, even if some do offer better feature sets.



Yep, it's more than looks too the iPod has a fairly easy interface (it passes the 'mum test' easily) too. For the average user those things are important...


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## Crispy (Feb 5, 2008)

my ipod is choosing this precise moment to start dying for real on me. nice timing you  these things are sent to tempt me!


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## editor (Feb 5, 2008)

Part two continues here: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=239090


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