# Patagonia - what's your feelings?



## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 10, 2005)

A group of Welsh settlers fleeing oppression and a chance to build a life in their own tongue?

Or another set of colonialists tramping on anothers soil?

I know patagonia itself is supposed to be a very desolate and crappy palce to make a home, but it's still a colony.

It's never sat easy on me this one, but I suppose the whole idea of emigrating and not trying to change things at home is a tricky question.

What were conditions like at home when they went, was it a Missionary type of thing? Did they just land in a dessert by chance?

Any thoughts?


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## Karac (Dec 10, 2005)

Thought they were fleeing mainly religious and linguistic/cultural oppression.
Probably the Patagonians werent too happy when they arrived tho!  
As colonisation goes tho it was/is pretty mild.


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## editor (Dec 10, 2005)

It was hardly colonialism in any shape or form.

The Welsh weren't looking to exploit the land - they were trying to protect their lifestyle which had become endangered in their native land. 

According to this article, they "asked for land and respect for their language, religion and traditions. In return, they would hoist the argentine flag and submit themselves to the country's laws."

And they seemed to have respected local tribes too, quickly forming a trading partnership before going on to build the first artificial irrigation system in Argentina.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Dec 10, 2005)

In the intersts of balance, from the same reference;
_The plan was to leave Wales in an organized group, and find a country with virgin lands, one that would enable the arrival of a significant number of people and where we could develop, or in other words, establish ourselves as a Welsh colony, like in New Wales.
_

h_e first settlers had to put up with many difficulties and problems, including bad harvests and confrontations with the native Indians_


The Pilgrim Fathers were escaping persecution too.

It's a thin line, I feel, I've heard it said that there was no-one in SouthAfrica when it wa scolonised, but the land is always someones, the fact that a population might be migratory and not be there all the time (like the Australian aboriginals ) doesn't mean it was un inhabitibable.

 The Argentinian government were asking for immigrants at the time but they rarely have the indiginous people at heart.

The fact that they gave irrigation to the land just showshow difficult a question this whole question is.Undoubtedly some aspects of 'colonial rule' gave advantages in the form of new technologies.


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## lewislewis (Dec 11, 2005)

Its hardly comparable to British colonisation.


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## davesgcr (Dec 11, 2005)

They were hardly economic migrants ...but apart form the culteral issues of "Y Wladfa" - they were really fleeing form both the mid Victorian agriculteral recession (harder in Mid Wales than anywhere) - but also from a system which likced them into tenancies often owned by absentee gentry. 

It wasnt exactly a sinecure - and I gathe once it was established - they were "colonised" by Spanish speaking Argentina - all in all - a remarkable epsiode - would really like to know more about it all ...we disnt get a lot from the standard Welsh History textbooks.


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## lewislewis (Dec 11, 2005)

I agree mate, it'd be nice if someone did a decent documentary on it...


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## chilango (Dec 12, 2005)

Patagonia wasn´t hugely populated - the indigenous Mapuche did, and do live there, but have been one of the few indigenous peoples in Argentina to survive in any real form. Their main threat is recent and from oil development.


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## lighterthief (Dec 12, 2005)

"In Patagonia" by Bruce Chatwin is worth a read - fair bit in there about the Welsh settlers.  Interesting book.


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## ddraig (Dec 12, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I agree mate, it'd be nice if someone did a decent documentary on it...



there was a Welsh language one years ago iirc
sori no more info


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## Dai Sheep (Dec 12, 2005)

This provides a *starting point * for anyone who wants to know more, with directions for further reading  (and yes, I know wickipedia can be unreliable - still a good starting point though) 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Wladfa


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## blossie33 (Dec 13, 2005)

There are interesting bits about the decendants of the Welsh settlers in the Tom Vernon book 'Fat Man in Argentina'.


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## 1927 (Dec 13, 2005)

Thought this was gonna be a thread about that restaurant in Canton!


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## durruti02 (Dec 14, 2005)

the bit's in Malcolm Pryces Aberystwyth books about the War of Independance and all the casualties, in the 6ts make me feel really wierd!!  

 we had a friend of the family from patagonia .. she spoke both english and welsh with a spanish/argentine accent   

 bbc wales have a patagonia section


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## Santi-Panchita (Jan 5, 2006)

The object was to create a 'Little Wales beyond Wales' and settlers spoke Welsh for 4 generations. I think that Welsh is not widely spoken there now though. From what i gathered although Welsh identity is still strong, like other outsposts it is now fighting a losing battle to maintain itself

Although a harsh place to settle, Patagonia IMO is one of the most beautiful and mysterious places on earth. Where you can be surrounded by beautiful moon-scapes, thrown in with a heady mix of coca cola, welsh teahouses, eisteddfods, and giant sea elefants, orcas and whales that visit the shorelines.


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## Biffo (Jan 5, 2006)

Apparently Gabriel Batistuta (Argentine footballer) speaks Welsh. His Great Grandfather was from Bala and emmigrated to Patagonia in the 19th century.


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## Brockway (Jan 5, 2006)

Other weird Welsh settlements:

Apparently between 1850-1 100 people from Gwent went to mine gold in Rio Grand do Sol in Brazil. They called their colony Nova Cambria.

John Hughes from Merthyr took a load of workers from South Wales and Scotland to Russia (circa 1869) to set up an ironworks. Yuzovska (now Donetsk) was named after him. Apparently lots of the streets were given Welsh names!

And there's a big Welsh contingent in Manitoba too by all accounts. Some of them went there from Patagonia.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 5, 2006)

Im sure I saw a job advert advertsing for a welsh speaking teacher there not so long back but also heard form a friend that welsh companies are employing people from patagonia here. Not sure how correct that is though obviously


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## Belushi (Jan 5, 2006)

> John Hughes from Merthyr took a load of workers from South Wales and Scotland to Russia (circa 1869) to set up an ironworks. Yuzovska (now Donetsk) was named after him. Apparently lots of the streets were given Welsh names



I dont know about Welsh but there are still Russians who bear Scottish surnames and are proud of their Scottish ancestry.


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## nwnm (Jan 5, 2006)

"John Hughes from Merthyr took a load of workers from South Wales and Scotland to Russia (circa 1869) to set up an ironworks. Yuzovska (now Donetsk) was named after him. Apparently lots of the streets were given Welsh names "

I remember reading an article about this in a copy of Radical Wales, but thought the settlement was early 20th cemtury. I'll have to scour my collection of mags one of these days, and post a precis of the article. May take a while to do this though as I have thousands of political/cultural mags to go through.....


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## RubberBuccaneer (Jan 5, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Other weird Welsh settlements:
> 
> Apparently between 1850-1 100 people from Gwent went to mine gold in Rio Grand do Sol in Brazil. They called their colony Nova Cambria.
> 
> ...



So we're not a big race of losers then?  

You forgot the Mandan.


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## Brockway (Jan 5, 2006)

Tragically the whole Mandan/Welsh speaking Indians thing was just a myth - but a great myth nonetheless.

There's also the Pennsylvania Welsh, of course; and the Welsh mormons in Utah.

That's almost an empire!


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## niclas (Jan 6, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Tragically the whole Mandan/Welsh speaking Indians thing was just a myth - but a great myth nonetheless.
> 
> There's also the Pennsylvania Welsh, of course; and the Welsh mormons in Utah.
> 
> That's almost an empire!




Having checked, it turns out the "Gabriel Batistuta speaks Welsh" claim is a myth too - apparently it was a completely different Gabriel Batistuta who spoke Welsh. 

Don't forget the Nebraska Welsh - a large community around Omaha


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## RubberBuccaneer (Jan 6, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> Having checked, it turns out the "Gabriel Batistuta speaks Welsh" claim is a myth too - apparently it was a completely different Gabriel Batistuta who spoke Welsh.
> 
> Don't forget the Nebraska Welsh - a large community around Omaha



Fucking Hell! I almost ordered a shirt because of that.

You'll be telling me next that the cremated Iesu Grist wasn't the real one but the son of a local doctor


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## niclas (Jan 6, 2006)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> Fucking Hell! I almost ordered a shirt because of that.
> 
> You'll be telling me next that the cremated Iesu Grist wasn't the real one but the son of a local doctor




William Price - what a star... predated all those trendy Hollywood stars calling their kids weird names, campaigned for cremations and was an all-round top radical. 

Meic Stevens wrote a song about him with a chorus that goes:''I don't give a bugger x 3, what anyone thinks of me"

wouldn't want him as a GP, mind...


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## durruti02 (Jan 7, 2006)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> Fucking Hell! I almost ordered a shirt because of that.QUOTE]
> 
> me too!!!


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## durruti02 (Jan 7, 2006)

reading gwyn williams .. in search of beulah about the welsh sort of colony in pennslyvania .. not got far but the american revolution was apparrently thought synonymous with the welsh at the time


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