# Big Brother contestant Emily Parr is removed from house for racist abuse.



## LDR (Jun 7, 2007)

I thought it warranted it's own thread.

Does anyone know what was said?


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## Orang Utan (Jun 7, 2007)

"Emily was dancing with Charley and Nicky in the living room of the Big Brother house at approximately 8.30pm last night (Wednesday 6th June) when she was heard to say “Are you pushing it out you nigger?” to Charley"


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## LDR (Jun 7, 2007)

I don't know what the context was but considering what happened in the last Big Brother it seems like an incredibly stupid thing to say even if it was supposed to be banter rather than abuse.


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## clandestino (Jun 7, 2007)

no way! is this true?!?


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## Flashman (Jun 7, 2007)

Probably meant "nigga".

Not really advisable to use it though. Like you say, stupid as fuck.


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## zenie (Jun 7, 2007)

Jesus


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## Belushi (Jun 7, 2007)

Which one is Emily - I havent watched it since the first night and I realised it was going to be all women.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 7, 2007)

ianw said:
			
		

> no way! is this true?!?


Yep


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## Belushi (Jun 7, 2007)

ianw said:
			
		

> no way! is this true?!?



It's breaking news over on digital spy

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=45


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## sorter (Jun 7, 2007)

where is this info coming from?


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## Orang Utan (Jun 7, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Which one is Emily - I havent watched it since the first night and I realised it was going to be all women.


No idea - managed to avoid it so far!


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## Flashman (Jun 7, 2007)

sorter said:
			
		

> where is this info coming from?



It's live on Sky News at mo. It's definitely happened she's gone.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 7, 2007)

sorter said:
			
		

> where is this info coming from?


Straight from the horse's mouth!


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## Flashman (Jun 7, 2007)

It's live on Orang Utan News


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## clandestino (Jun 7, 2007)

I'm actually shocked. 

She's a stupid, spoiled brat who deserved her comeuppance...but this is something else entirely. What a moronic thing to have said.


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## newbie (Jun 7, 2007)

cue snivelling posh blonde in TV studios across the land saying her life is ruined because a joke misfired.


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## mozzy (Jun 7, 2007)

Blinkin' heck - wtf??! 

If she was just being plain "dumb", well, wonders never cease.....


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## Orang Utan (Jun 7, 2007)

Emily: (referring to Charley dancing/pushing her hips forward) You pushing it out you nigger.
Nicky: (shocked laughter) Em, I can’t believe you said that.
Charley: You are in trouble.
Emily: Don’t make a big thing out of it then. I was joking.
Charley: I know you were… but that’s some serious shit, sorry.
Emily: Why?
Charley: Oh my god. I’m not even saying it.
Nicky: Just don’t talk about it anymore.
Emily: I was joking
Charley: Do you know how many viewers would watch that?
Nicky: Okay, don’t make a big deal out of it.
Charley: Fancy you saying that. I can’t believe you said that.
Emily: Somebody has already used that word in this house.
Charley: No way. (Pause) Yeah, me. I’m a nigger.

Nicky laughs.
Charley: I am one. Fancy you saying it. I know maybe you see it in a rap song. Maybe you and your friends sit there saying it.
Emily: I’m friendly with plenty of black people.
Nicky: And you call them niggers?
Emily: Yeah and they call me niggers. They call me wiggers as well.
Nicky: I’m quite shocked.
Charley: I’m fucking in shock.
Emily: It’s not a big deal though is it?
Charley: Not for us it ain’t. Fuck me.


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## Flashman (Jun 7, 2007)

Obviously it's conjecture, but my gut feeling she was trying to be "street" not dumb or making a bad joke, i.e "yo shake that booty nigga" type thing.

If Shilpagate hadn't have happened she still be in the house IMO.


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## Balbi (Jun 7, 2007)

*can hear Ofcom getting their 'wrist-slap-o-matic' warmed up*


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## mozzy (Jun 7, 2007)

Flashman said:
			
		

> Obviously it's conjecture, but my gut feeling she was trying to be "street" not dumb or making a bad joke, i.e "yo shake that booty nigga" type thing.
> 
> If Shilpagate hadn't have happened she still be in the house IMO.



Yep - i almost feel sorry for her as i don't think there was any bad intention there.


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## zenie (Jun 7, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Emily: (referring to Charley dancing/pushing her hips forward) You pushing it out you nigger.
> Nicky: (shocked laughter) Em, I can’t believe you said that.
> Charley: You are in trouble.
> Emily: Don’t make a big thing out of it then. I was joking.
> ...




Ok so is Charley pissed off that she said it or not?  

I can't tell her reaction from that conversation really?


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## Flashman (Jun 7, 2007)

mozzy said:
			
		

> Yep - i almost feel sorry for her as i don't think there was any bad intention there.



Almost


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## liampreston (Jun 7, 2007)

C4 execs hearts pounding, OFCOM pen's clicking in readiness.....


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## J77 (Jun 7, 2007)

In the absence of pk these days, may I say *surplus*.


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## marty21 (Jun 7, 2007)

she was the stupid drama student who liked indie (as if it were a new style of music )  can't imagine this doing her post bb career much of a boost...


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## sleaterkinney (Jun 7, 2007)

> Emily: I’m friendly with plenty of black people.


 I bet she is, bloody hell.


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## Santino (Jun 7, 2007)

sleaterkinney said:
			
		

> I bet she is, bloody hell.


Well someone's got to keep the cotton farm running.


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## skunkboy69 (Jun 7, 2007)

So the house is full of idiots again eh?


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## Structaural (Jun 7, 2007)

Moron... Cya.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 7, 2007)

zenie said:
			
		

> Ok so is Charley pissed off that she said it or not?
> 
> I can't tell her reaction from that conversation really?


That's not relevant - what matters is how viewers would feel about it


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## DRINK? (Jun 7, 2007)

skunkboy69 said:
			
		

> So the house is full of idiots again eh?



when has it not been  i can't stand BB contestants ...the vitriol I have for them cannot be put in to words...


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## Sweaty Betty (Jun 7, 2007)

Worst big bruvva ever and now the feckin eviction is cancelled!!!


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## Idaho (Jun 7, 2007)

I don't get it to be honest. Ordinary people in act like twats on occassion shocker.


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## Sunspots (Jun 7, 2007)

Excellent news!  Another nail in the coffin.  Die _Big Brother_, die.


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## thefishdead (Jun 7, 2007)

As if any more proof where needed that these, expensively educated, upper middle class kids, have anything but their egos and superiority complexes to offer the world.


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## zenie (Jun 7, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> That's not relevant - what matters is how viewers would feel about it




It's relevent to me cos I asked the question?  

Emily should still have been thrown out though...


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## Teepee (Jun 7, 2007)

hahahahahahaha

that is all


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## editor (Jun 7, 2007)

Can't we just shunt the entire house into the sea along with its talent-lite, publicity-desperate inhabitants?

Just an idea, like.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 7, 2007)

BB said:
			
		

> Emily: It’s not a big deal though is it?
> Charley: Not for us it ain’t. Fuck me.



That made me laugh.

Em and Nicky saying 'It's not a big deal! Don't talk about it!' desperatley trying to pull their necks in while realising that it's too late and Charley summing it up.


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## King Biscuit Time (Jun 7, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Can't we just shunt the entire house into the sea along with its talent-lite, publicity-desperate inhabitants?
> 
> Just an idea, like.



I still like Mark Lamarr's idea of having a big brother house full of contestants, and then just not filming it. As they are evicted they wander out onto an industrial estate and a janitor pushing a broom points them in the direction of the bus stop.


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## miss giggles (Jun 7, 2007)

Deary deary me....

I almost feel sorry for her, how could she be so stuuuuupid.


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## bouncer_the_dog (Jun 7, 2007)

J77 said:
			
		

> In the absence of pk these days, may I say *surplus*.




yes


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## skunkboy69 (Jun 7, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Can't we just shunt the entire house into the sea along with its talent-lite, publicity-desperate inhabitants?
> 
> Just an idea, like.



But how would the fools become famous without the house? They'd have to DO SOMETHING to achieve their dreams


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## slaar (Jun 7, 2007)

King Biscuit Time said:
			
		

> I still like Mark Lamarr's idea of having a big brother house full of contestants, and then just not filming it. As they are evicted they wander out onto an industrial estate and a janitor pushing a broom points them in the direction of the bus stop.


Genius, but unfortunately it wouldn't make very much money.


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## thefishdead (Jun 7, 2007)

The world will help them. Did'ent Victoria Beckam just get voted woman of the year. Satire is offically dead.


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## Badgers (Jun 7, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Can't we just shunt the entire house into the sea along with its talent-lite, publicity-desperate inhabitants?
> 
> Just an idea, like.



Good thinking Ed... 

I am all for having a Cube version of Big Brother where EVERYONE who applies for the show is selected and walked through a door into the 'Cube' never to return. 

Although let's not do the celeb version of 'Cube Brother' until Paris Hilton is out of jail


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## wishface (Jun 7, 2007)

wot a load of hypocritical endemol tosh.


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## N_igma (Jun 7, 2007)

Aww poor posh girl gets fucked out for trying to be street. She shouldn't be fucked out for saying the N word, she should get fucked out for just being her really.


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## marty21 (Jun 7, 2007)

King Biscuit Time said:
			
		

> I still like Mark Lamarr's idea of having a big brother house full of contestants, and then just not filming it. As they are evicted they wander out onto an industrial estate and a janitor pushing a broom points them in the direction of the bus stop.



genius, but not a money maker though, as has been said - funny as fuck though, all those wannabes wander out after 10 weeks, expecting lucrative media deals and no one has a clue who they are 

maybe they could have 2 houses, one is filmed, the other isn't


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## wishface (Jun 7, 2007)

_"gonna be a man in motion, all i need is a pair of wheels..."_

sorry that was _John _Parr.


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## Gromit (Jun 7, 2007)

I think that if white people can be punished for using the N word then black people should be too and Charly should go too if she's used it previously.

There shouldn't be words that are considered racist if white people use it but aren't if black people do as it causes misunderstandings such as this. Far better if there is no grey area and no one uses it.

e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6407413.stm


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## Apathy (Jun 7, 2007)




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## Structaural (Jun 7, 2007)

hehe I just got banned from Digital Spy for calling too many people stupid. Shame. I forget that the urban75 way only works on urban.


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## Belushi (Jun 7, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> hehe I just got banned from Digital Spy for calling too many people stupid. Shame. I forget that the urban75 way only works on urban.



There's some idiots on there and no mistake.


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## Structaural (Jun 7, 2007)

> I very, very, very, VERY much doubt we would have seen, say Charley, being evicted if she had perhaps said 'Emily you're a Cracker!' or 'Emily you're a Honkey!'.
> 
> But woe betide any white person who uses the N-word. Even as a friendly bit of banter, like from a line from a song sung by BLACK Rap artists?
> 
> ...



^^^ I called this person a moron and got banned. Maybe they were right...


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## g force (Jun 7, 2007)

I think it's an over reaction, but they've argued it very badly so probably are a moron.


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## Belushi (Jun 7, 2007)

g force said:
			
		

> I think it's an over reaction, but they've argued it very badly so probably are a moron.



There's a lot worse arguements than there.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> ^^^ I called this person a moron and got banned. Maybe they were right...


Of course they weren't right...they were being moronic and trying to justify Emily using the word 'nigger'.


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## Structaural (Jun 7, 2007)

It comes from their Terms and Conditions that specifies you have to treat every poster with 'respect' even if they're being idiots. You had to earn it in my day...

Still that idiot got loads more stick before they banned me. It was sort of fun really, I had a feeling they'd kick me off. They did a similar thing last year when I took on a load of homophobes. You can have the most despicable views but as long as you're polite you're fine...


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## chio (Jun 7, 2007)

I'm banned from Digital Spy at present as well, but that's just for winding everyone up in the radio section


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## PacificOcean (Jun 7, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> I think that if white people can be punished for using the N word then black people should be too and Charly should go too if she's used it previously.
> 
> There shouldn't be words that are considered racist if white people use it but aren't if black people do as it causes misunderstandings such as this. Far better if there is no grey area and no one uses it.
> 
> e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6407413.stm



I disagree.

Black people should "reclaim" the word to take away it's power.  But it's still a no-no for a white person imo.

Much like gay people call each other queer, but if a straight person calls me it I would find it offensive.


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## Neva (Jun 7, 2007)

What if someone was bi and said queer?

Would that be acceptable to you?


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## PacificOcean (Jun 7, 2007)

Neva said:
			
		

> What if someone was bi and said queer?
> 
> Would that be acceptable to you?



I would be half offended.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 7, 2007)

So, a stupid person is removed from a stupid show.

Ah well, I think I'll somehow manage to continue life as usual.


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## AnIdiot (Jun 7, 2007)

it's like the nigger-guy episode in south park


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## zoooo (Jun 7, 2007)

King Biscuit Time said:
			
		

> I still like Mark Lamarr's idea of having a big brother house full of contestants, and then just not filming it. As they are evicted they wander out onto an industrial estate and a janitor pushing a broom points them in the direction of the bus stop.



That was Armando Ianucci's idea, and he did it last year. With some very minor celebrities I think.
It was ace.


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## camouflage (Jun 7, 2007)

Emily slipped-up and did a Nathan Barley.

God help her, poor thing, she's just not that bright.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> I think that if white people can be punished for using the N word then black people should be too and Charly should go too if she's used it previously.


Yeah you are right she should be punished for internalising ideas that denigrate her/trying to take the sting out of something by making it her own....


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## camouflage (Jun 7, 2007)

PacificOcean said:
			
		

> I disagree.
> 
> Black people should "reclaim" the word to take away it's power.  But it's still a no-no for a white person imo.
> 
> Much like gay people call each other queer, but if a straight person calls me it I would find it offensive.



I strongly disagree, black people who use the word are twats as well, it's because of them "reclaiming" the word that ditsy blondes like Emily and other stupid/twattish/confused/malicious white people think it's okay for them to use the word too, and what about Chinese and Asian people, where do they stand in this whole "reclaim" bullshit?

It's like someone takes a crap on your doorstep some time, the next day what, you "reclaim" it? No, you wash it the fuck away, in fact you make the fucker that did it wash it away, you don't take it and smear it over yourself. Fucking America, this is that crap-culture across the Atlantics fault, them and their crap empty 'culture', spewing it all over the fucking place. Suppose it's okay to call women bitches and ho's too, to arm the police and have them gun down innocent people forty-nine times, to invade other nations for oil and power and then jizz lots of shit about _DefendingTheFreeWorld_ 

I can see I've decended into rant so I stop.


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## Sunray (Jun 7, 2007)

If your gonna say something like that you have to be funny or your fucked.

I defer to someone funny. 

http://artists.letssingit.com/george-carlin-rape-can-be-funny-7j9zp7k


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## camouflage (Jun 7, 2007)

dp.


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## camouflage (Jun 7, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Yeah you are right she should be punished for internalising ideas that denigrate her/trying to take the sting out of something by making it her own....



Making it her own... when have you heard a black person use that fucking word with affection to another black person? 

Idiots that use it are just racisting other black people so the whites don't have to. That's effectively what black 'nigga' Americans do now, obediantly shit all over eachother like white America has taught em to, keep it in Da Ghetto My Nigger, Biatch, Ho. Boys in the muthafuckin Hood style.

If a person- black, white, Asian, Chinese whatever called me a nigger, it's war.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2007)

foreigner said:
			
		

> Making it her own... when have you heard a black person use that fucking word with affection to another black person?


Yes, I have. Although I can't imagine doing so myself.


> Idiots that use it are just racisting other black people so the whites don't have to. That's effectively what black 'nigga' Americans do now, obediantly shit all over eachother like white America has taught em to, keep it in Da Ghetto My Nigger, Biatch, Ho. Boys in the muthafuckin Hood style.
> 
> If a person- black, white, Asian, Chinese whatever called me a nigger, it's war.


Fair enough and I understand you feelings...I see you didn't quote the *'internalising something that denigrates her' *part of my post. For me that's what it feels like when I see/hear black people using it and why I choose not to myself.


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## camouflage (Jun 7, 2007)

Well... okay then.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2007)

foreigner said:
			
		

> Well... okay then.


 that rather restrained reply made me laugh......because after all we are still allowed to laugh aren't we?


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## bluestreak (Jun 7, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> that rather restrained reply made me laugh......because after all we are still allowed to laugh aren't we?



didn't you get the memo?

it's been banned, sorry.  please report to a reprogramming camp immediately.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2007)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> didn't you get the memo?
> 
> it's been banned, sorry.  please report to a reprogramming camp immediately.


 
*marches off there at the double*


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## Dhimmi (Jun 7, 2007)

Not enough to make me watch it...


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## wishface (Jun 7, 2007)

Structaural said:
			
		

> It comes from their Terms and Conditions that specifies you have to treat every poster with 'respect' even if they're being idiots. You had to earn it in my day...
> 
> Still that idiot got loads more stick before they banned me. It was sort of fun really, I had a feeling they'd kick me off. They did a similar thing last year when I took on a load of homophobes. You can have the most despicable views but as long as you're polite you're fine...


I hear that! The internet is full of tw@s who hide behind notions of politeness.

But I digress.


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## Genghis Cohen (Jun 7, 2007)

I might join digital spy and accuse everyone of 'pc gone mad' regardless of their opinion.


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## Grandma Death (Jun 7, 2007)

Its a reality show....therefore there are sides of that reality we may not like. To be fair I think C4 are uber sensitive at the moment so I can see why she was booted out.


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## october_lost (Jun 7, 2007)

In a reality TV show, they have to expect people to be, well, er...'real'...but by all means emily is stupid


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## wrysmile (Jun 7, 2007)

Doesn't ANYONE see that this is probably a bloody ch 4 set up in order to make itself look tough on racism after the celeb BB debacle. No one is that stupid, I'm sorry, it was completely staged.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2007)

Supposedly the full transcript:



> Emily, Charley and Nikki are in the garden. Charley is pushing her hips and stomach out, and says "I hope I'm not pregnant…..". Emily says "You're pushing it out, you ******". Nicky says "I can't believe you said that". "I was joking" replies Emily. Charley says "I know you were … but that's some serious sh*t, sorry". Emily asks why. "Oh my god. I'm not even saying it" says Charley. "Just don't talk about it anymore" adds Nicky. Emily says "I was joking", but Charley replies "Do you know how many viewers would watch that?"
> 
> "Just don't talk about it" says Nicky. "Don't make a big deal out of it" whispers Emily. "Fancy you saying that" adds Charley, looking shocked. Emily replies "Somebody has already used that word in this house". Charley says "No way. (Pause) Yeah, me. I'm a ******. I am one. Fancy you saying it I know maybe you see it in a rap song. Maybe you and your friends sit there saying it."
> 
> ...


Source


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2007)

wrysmile said:
			
		

> Doesn't ANYONE see that this is probably a bloody ch 4 set up in order to make itself look tough on racism after the celeb BB debacle. No one is that stupid, I'm sorry, it was completely staged.


 Sorry Wry but no I don't think it was....If you read thr transcript Emily could have just as easily called her a bitch...it was a freudian slip, not a conspiracy.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 7, 2007)

wrysmile said:
			
		

> Doesn't ANYONE see that this is probably a bloody ch 4 set up in order to make itself look tough on racism after the celeb BB debacle. No one is that stupid, I'm sorry, it was completely staged.


Don't be daft!


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2007)

Why are people having such a bloody hard time accepting that some dopey mare thought it was ok and made her cool to call a black person a 'nigger'?

Where have you lot been for the last xxx years of your lives?

Ye godssssssssssss


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## Orangesanlemons (Jun 7, 2007)

I'm sorry, there's not a cat's chance in hell that this was some conspiracy between Emily/C4 and Endemol. It was just a stupid little rich girl trying to be street and using an offensive word she didn't properly understand. I'm glad they booted her out. Anyway, here's what happened in the diary room. I know the spoiler's embargoed but fuck it, I'll make an exception for this:

3:07am - Charley and Nicky get out of bed and are whispering in the living area about what Emily said.
Nicky says "She obviously wasn't thinking". Charley says "I know, it just come out, she's used to saying it…". Nicky adds "she wasn't being racist like 'you fucking nigger' … it was something that just shouldn't come out".
Emily is called to the Diary Room. Nicky says "Charley, she's made a racist comment to you, it's obviously made you feel uncomfortable. It's obviously bothering you don't say it isn't because it is. Charley replies "no but it's just a discussion…" Emily walks past and goes to the Diary Room.
In the Diary Room Big Brother tells Emily her conversation was observed and that she used a racially offensive term. "It wasn't offensive though. I understand how people could have taken it in the wrong way though" she says.
When asked by Big Brother what happened, Emily says the three housemates were laughing and joking around. When asked what she meant by the term, she says that where she comes from it's a "friendly term you know, making fun of people, being in a group … I would never use any offensive words like that, you know? I would never say it in an offensive way"
Emily says: "You hear offensive words in songs every day, and it's nothing to be offended by. I've never meant any offence to anybody. I'm a kind girl, I've got a big heart for everybody. … I wouldn't do that. I know I wouldn't it. It's not fair, I wouldn't do that".
Big Brother asks Emily if she understands how the term might be deemed offensive. "Totally I understand … (but) in the context it was used, it was neither racially abusive or offensive to anybody there, in the context I used it. At all. At all" she says.
Big Brother tells Emily the term she used is unacceptable, and that all housemates were warned this language would not be tolerated. She is told that given the serious nature of the matter, Big Brother has no alternative other than to remove Emily from the Big Brother house.
Emily is sat in the Diary Room open mouthed. "Oh my god, I'm so sorry" she says. She looks shocked. "Ok, um ok, oh my gosh" she whispers.
Big Brother asks Emily if there's anything she'd like to say. "I'm so shocked. I'm so sorry I really didn't mean it offensively, and oh my god, I'm just shocked. I never meant it like that …I know people will believe me when I say that. Ok, I'd just like to say to everyone in the house when they get out, thanks for this, it's been really fun, and … thanks for this opportunity. Goodbye". (waves to camera)
In the living area, Charley and Nicky are exclaiming that Emily has been in the Diary Room for ages. Charley says "Cor blimey, why has this happened? Over one small thing like that. A slip of the tongue…"


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## Structaural (Jun 7, 2007)

Don't be a cunt.




			
				Marius said:
			
		

> I think that if white people can be punished for using the N word then black people should be too and Charly should go too if she's used it previously.
> 
> There shouldn't be words that are considered racist if white people use it but aren't if black people do as it causes misunderstandings such as this. Far better if there is no grey area and no one uses it.
> 
> e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6407413.stm


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## unusual_solid (Jun 7, 2007)

doesn't look as as i first thought at least charley didn't batter her. stupid white girl.


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## zenie (Jun 7, 2007)

unusual_solid said:
			
		

> doesn't look as as i first thought at least charley didn't batter her. stupid white girl.



You just answered in reponse to a racist remark with another derrogatory term...nice one.  

Watching it she's a fuckin ignorant bitch, glad she got booted out. She didnt even apologise!!


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## The Pious Pawn (Jun 7, 2007)

talk about over the top , some of the shit channel four screen and they get there pants in a twist over this .


edited to add


bit rich four channel 4 to bang the moral  crusade drum imho


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## Numbers (Jun 7, 2007)

zenie said:
			
		

> You just answered in reponse to a racist remark with another derrogatory term...nice one.


hardly the same thing.  not in the same ball park, in fact aint even the same game.

anyone who thinks there is any iota of comparison is seriously fucking thick. 

aint saying you do/are, not at all... just saying in general.


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## ChrisFilter (Jun 7, 2007)

Was worse in reality than I thought based on the transcript.. Charley was obviously properly offended, and rightly so. Definitely deserved the boot. At least she apologised.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2007)

The Pious Pawn said:
			
		

> talk about over the top ,


You obviously have never been in a situation where someone you trusted/felt comfortable with/liked called you something as offensive as 'nigger' something that although you wanted to believe it wasn't meant badly, it hurt you, embarressed you and disturbed you....welcome to the experiences of many black people...


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## The Pious Pawn (Jun 7, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> You obviously have never been in a situation where someone you trusted/felt comfortable with/liked called you something as offensive as 'nigger' something that although you wanted to believe it wasn't meant badly, it hurt you, embarressed you and disturbed you....welcome to the experiences of many black people...




yep , life go's on . i dont need a cross to bare . wouldnt surprise me if this is all a fix imho .;


----------



## Diana (Jun 7, 2007)

ChrisFilter said:
			
		

> Was worse in reality than I thought based on the transcript.. Charley was obviously properly offended, and rightly so. Definitely deserved the boot. At least she apologised.



I thought it was a lot worse than when I read about it as well.


----------



## citydreams (Jun 7, 2007)

The Pious Pawn said:
			
		

> yep , life go's on . i dont need a cross to bare . wouldnt surprise me if this is all a fix imho .;



Come on, it's a consequence of the pressure cooker atmosphere that she slipped up.  It was stupid and offensive.  I hope Emile's ok, but going into BB you're asking for controversy.


----------



## N_igma (Jun 7, 2007)

PC GAWN MAD!   

At the end of the day, there were strict instructions on the issue of racial abuse and she crossed the line. I don't think she's racist, just a naive little girl who wanted to be gangsta with her black mate.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2007)

The Pious Pawn said:
			
		

> yep , life go's on . i dont need a cross to bare . wouldnt surprise me if this is all a fix imho .;


 Yeah well...you think like that because the reality is far too uncomfortable for you to bear. Some of us don't have that luxury.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2007)

N_igma said:
			
		

> PC GAWN MAD!
> 
> .


Surely you mean _Politeness_ gone mad...that is after all what having some respect used to be called.


----------



## TheRecoil (Jun 7, 2007)

I think it is such a shame that she has had to leave like this.  

She had by far and away the most gorgeous arse I've ever seen in the big brother house.


----------



## citydreams (Jun 7, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Surely you mean _Politeness_ gone mad...that is after all what having some respect used to be called.



*applauds*  I wish I had something else to add Rutita


----------



## Fuzzy (Jun 8, 2007)

i just watched BB for the first time tonight and i'm not sure how i feel about what she said and how C4 managed her exit. something sits uneasy with me and i think a 19 year old girl has just been used for ratings in some way. how i rationalise that is something i'll do but without buying in to the whole BB media bandwagon that is going on at the moment. yes she was easy with her language but i'd rather they destroyed Jade Goody and not her. i know who i would rather get destroyed  by the acusation/action of racism


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

Fuzzy said:
			
		

> i just watched BB for the first time tonight and i'm not sure how i feel about what she said and how C4 managed her exit. something sits uneasy with me and i think a 19 year old girl has just been used for ratings in some way. how i rationalise that is something i'll do but without buying in to the whole BB media bandwagon that is going on at the moment. yes she was easy with her language but i'd rather they destroyed Jade Goody and not her. i know who i would rather get destroyed  by the acusation/action of racism



You've made some good points but she will now make shed loads of money fighting her corner.....19 or not she knew the show she was going onto.
....and regardless of who you would rather get destroyed, she royally fucked up.


----------



## Harold Hill (Jun 8, 2007)

How will she make shedloads of money?  No one will pay to interview her.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2007)

She might make shedloads of money showing her arse


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

Harold Hill said:
			
		

> How will she make shedloads of money?  No one will pay to interview her.


Of course they will.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> She might make shedloads of money showing her arse


Well she does have a nice bum, good luck to her.


----------



## Harold Hill (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Of course they will.



You reckon?  Can't see any situation other than any money from an interview being waived or given to charity.


----------



## Flashman (Jun 8, 2007)

unusual_solid said:
			
		

> doesn't look as as i first thought at least charley didn't batter her. stupid white girl.



Two wrongs don't make a right, cunt.


----------



## Flashman (Jun 8, 2007)

foreigner said:
			
		

> Making it her own... when have you heard a black person use that fucking word with affection to another black person?
> 
> Idiots that use it are just racisting other black people so the whites don't have to. That's effectively what black 'nigga' Americans do now, obediantly shit all over eachother like white America has taught em to, keep it in Da Ghetto My Nigger, Biatch, Ho. Boys in the muthafuckin Hood style.
> 
> If a person- black, white, Asian, Chinese whatever called me a nigger, it's war.



It's "nigga" not ni**er (in this instance) I'm afraid  and whether we like it or not, it has been "reclaimed" and means different things to different people.

Very, very sad really, it's a horrid word.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jun 8, 2007)

I think we should do a U75 big brother: all members get to nominate their favourite U75er, and the top however many vote getters are locked into the house, and cc tv shows it to the rest of Urban.

Shocker from first night: Shippou goes for surreptitious wank in closet with pic of foxgirl maid...









..... only to be discovered by Agent Sparrow.


----------



## Sunray (Jun 8, 2007)

I think that the word should be reclaimed. 

Its a word that is associated with race and hatred and used as such by racists, their continued exclusive use of a taboo word reinforces and gives psychological power to that word.  If we hear it thousands of times in relation to non-negative, comical things, its race hatred meaning is diluted and it will be used less by the racists.

I think this is in part what tackling racism is about.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jun 8, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> I think that the word should be reclaimed.
> 
> Its a word that is associated with race and hatred and used as such by racists, their continued exclusive use of a taboo word reinforces and gives psychological power to that word.  If we hear it thousands of times in relation to non-negative, comical things, its race hatred meaning is diluted and it will be used less by the racists.
> 
> I think this is in part what tackling racism is about.



I don't think that's a very good idea. Until there's a word to describe you that's as hurtful as that word, I'd prefer that you refrain from using it.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Jun 8, 2007)

King Biscuit Time said:
			
		

> I still like Mark Lamarr's idea of having a big brother house full of contestants, and then just not filming it. As they are evicted they wander out onto an industrial estate and a janitor pushing a broom points them in the direction of the bus stop.


----------



## The Pious Pawn (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Yeah well...you think like that because the reality is far too uncomfortable for you to bear.


----------



## Fuzzy (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> ....and regardless of who you would rather get destroyed, she royally fucked up.



i totally agree she fucked and i'm not excusing her behaviour one ounce. it seems endemol have used her to try and cover up for their severe failure to do anything about Jade Goody and co in CBB. its feels very much like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.


----------



## Fuzzy (Jun 8, 2007)

did you hear her comment when she was told she was going. it was something along the lines of "i've got no underwear on". 

the other telling point about her being in the diary room getting a grilling was that she never once said sorry. did she feel no remorse or did she not feel that she should say sorry if she had offended someone.


----------



## Numbers (Jun 8, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I don't think that's a very good idea. Until there's a word to describe you that's as hurtful as that word, I'd prefer that you refrain from using it.


Totally agree with you Johnny.


----------



## jæd (Jun 8, 2007)

Sunray said:
			
		

> I think that the word should be reclaimed.
> 
> Its a word that is associated with race and hatred and used as such by racists, their continued exclusive use of a taboo word reinforces and gives psychological power to that word.  If we hear it thousands of times in relation to non-negative, comical things, its race hatred meaning is diluted and it will be used less by the racists.
> 
> I think this is in part what tackling racism is about.



Well, Yep, but there's still many connotations mixed up with the word and people understandably don't feel comfortable with others using it. Though I'dquestion knee-jerk reactions to it...

Banning its actual use --- since when did prohibiting something ever work...?


----------



## Kanda (Jun 8, 2007)

Fuzzy said:
			
		

> i totally agree she fucked and i'm not excusing her behaviour one ounce. it seems endemol have used her to try and cover up for their severe failure to do anything about Jade Goody and co in CBB. its feels very much like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.



The CBB fiasco made them add a few new rules, Emily then broke them, pretty simple but I guess the conspiraloons will snatch at anything


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jun 8, 2007)

As others have said, it does sound like she was more the silly rich girl trying to be "street" than horribly racist - however, I'm still quite astounded that nobody could realise the offensive connotations of the word. Hopefully she'll have learned a very quick, sharp lesson, and with time will reflect how out of order she was. Whether she does or not (or prefers to see it as injustice) only time will tell. 

I would have hoped some people with similar views might have learned something, though from peeking at the digital spy forums, unfortunately it seems some people are using it as an example of PC gone mad/poor little white people don't have the same verbal freedoms as black people.   

Btw, Johnny, please don't bring up my name in threads to say how you think I would act when I haven't even gone near them yet, even if you are making a joke. Ta.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jun 8, 2007)

I didn't realise the word 'Yid' is actually Yiddish for 'Jew' and that some Jewish people use the word 'Yid' to each other as a sign of affection. If anyone non-Jewish said the word to them though it would be a major insult. Similar thing with 'nigga' then.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jun 8, 2007)

goldenecitrone said:
			
		

> I didn't realise the word 'Yid' is actually Yiddish for 'Jew' and that some Jewish people use the word 'Yid' to each other as a sign of affection. If anyone non-Jewish said the word to them though it would be a major insult. Similar thing with 'nigga' then.



t*ttenham shitespur fans call themselves the yid army, i would bet a pretty penny that most of them aren't jewish - are you claiming that they're all insulting themselves? each other? what is it that you are saying  how can a word be acceptable when one person says it and yet not when someone else does? that is ridiculous.


----------



## foo (Jun 8, 2007)

foreigner said:
			
		

> Making it her own... when have you heard a black person use that fucking word with affection to another black person? .



quite a lot actually. especially young black kids. 

i didn't see this but from what i've read/heard, i agree with those who say - posh girl trying to act 'street' in front of her new black friend. idiot.  

and yes, they were right in booting her out.

saw a glimpse of BBBig Mouth with Galloway <barf> and some journalist made a worthwhile comment about wondering if BB would be as strong on homophobic language/insults. i wonder that too....


----------



## Fuzzy (Jun 8, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> The CBB fiasco made them add a few new rules, Emily then broke them, pretty simple but I guess the conspiraloons will snatch at anything



so being racist or using racist language/behaviour wasnt a rule during CBB. you mean they actually had to spell it out to this lot whilst they didnt to the slebs?


----------



## J77 (Jun 8, 2007)

foo said:
			
		

> saw a glimpse of BBBig Mouth with Galloway <barf> and some journalist made a worthwhile comment about wondering if BB would be as strong on homophobic language/insults. i wonder that too....


I wouldn't last five minutes on BB -- not through being homophobic, racist, sexist etc. but just through my casual nonexistent-pc attitude.


----------



## Numbers (Jun 8, 2007)

What a young dumb bint.  I mean, her saying it was a 'friendly term' where she's from is a bit wide of the mark.  Aint she from Bristol  somehow I don't see it being a friendly gesture there.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 8, 2007)

Fuzzy said:
			
		

> so being racist or using racist language/behaviour wasnt a rule during CBB. you mean they actually had to spell it out to this lot whilst they didnt to the slebs?



I think they were just a fuckton more clear on the subject. 

It's not rocket science though is it? She was a fucking idiot and got booted for it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2007)

I'm sorry but she's an idiot AND a racist


----------



## newbie (Jun 8, 2007)

Fuzzy said:
			
		

> did you hear her comment when she was told she was going. it was something along the lines of "i've got no underwear on".
> 
> the other telling point about her being in the diary room getting a grilling was that she never once said sorry. did she feel no remorse or did she not feel that she should say sorry if she had offended someone.



that made me feel rather uncomfortable tbh.  Galloway was congratulating BB on how quickly they reacted, but the incident was at 8pm and she was pulled out of her bed, clearly very dozy and predictably underdressed, at 3 in the morning.  I don't know what they were doing in those hours, but planning that a young girl should appear at a keynote moment in that state struck me as exploitative.


btw I thought I heard her say "I'm so sorry" repeatedly, but maybe I misheard?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2007)

Tony Numbers said:
			
		

> What a young dumb bint.  I mean, her saying it was a 'friendly term' where she's from is a bit wide of the mark.  Aint she from Bristol  somehow I don't see it being a friendly gesture there.


Eggsackerly


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2007)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> how can a word be acceptable when one person says it and yet not when someone else does? that is ridiculous.


It's not ridiculous at all - context is all


----------



## newbie (Jun 8, 2007)

her acting cv says 'south Gloucestershire', which is more Cotswolds than Bristol


----------



## Sweet FA (Jun 8, 2007)

Tony Numbers said:
			
		

> I mean, her saying it was a 'friendly term' where she's from is a bit wide of the mark


'a friendly term' amongst her all-white, all-dim, public school mates no doubt.


----------



## ch750536 (Jun 8, 2007)

J77 said:
			
		

> I wouldn't last five minutes on BB -- not through being homophobic, racist, sexist etc. but just through my casual nonexistent-pc attitude.



Same here bud. Unfortunately I would be misunderstood when I say things like 'Dont throw like a lesbian' & other classics which I can't even type here.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Jun 8, 2007)

Fuzzy said:
			
		

> the other telling point about her being in the diary room getting a grilling was that she never once said sorry. did she feel no remorse or did she not feel that she should say sorry if she had offended someone.



She said sorry loads of times..


----------



## hammerntongues (Jun 8, 2007)

In the context  she used it , I don`t think it can be termed as " abuse " though can it ? It`s probably right that she was ejected but didnt even appear to offend the person she said it to.


----------



## Flashman (Jun 8, 2007)

Sweet FA said:
			
		

> 'a friendly term' amongst her all-white, all-dim, public school mates no doubt.



Somehow I don't think they'll be using that term again ever, which is one positive to take out of the situation I suppose.

Whilst I still think she was trying to be "down" or whatever, BB have acted correctly and sent a strong message.

Good show IMO.


----------



## newbie (Jun 8, 2007)

why??  why use language which is intended to be derogatory and is quite clearly capable of causing offence.  Does it make you feel big or something?

what does 'throw like a lesbian' even mean?


----------



## Numbers (Jun 8, 2007)

Sweet FA said:
			
		

> 'a friendly term' amongst her all-white, all-dim, public school mates no doubt.


absolutely.


----------



## ch750536 (Jun 8, 2007)

^^ See what I mean!


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jun 8, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> It's not ridiculous at all - context is all



context is all? young stupid girl uses a word when she quite clearly has very little idea about the etomology or history of said word, and she's apparently a closet racist? so black rappers are 'allowed' to use the same word as they're simply denigrating themselves, rather than black people per se, in context?

or as with my earlier eg, tottenham fans call themselves 'yid army' and that's ok? what about when other fans sing 'anti-yid' songs? is this acceptable as the context is that they're responding to the sp*rs fans self-labelling or does it betray deeper prejudices? 

i think a great deal of the hysteria around this incident actually reveals what a fucking ridiculous situation we end up in by trying to prescribe what is and what isn't acceptable language. context is a construct used as an excuse. it is ridiculous, imo.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2007)

I bet she never said it to a black mate (if she has any) - so why did she say it to her housemate - she was thinking it and it slipped out - that makes her a racist IMO


----------



## Numbers (Jun 8, 2007)

Flashman said:
			
		

> Somehow I don't think they'll be using that term again ever, which is one positive to take out of the situation I suppose.
> 
> Whilst I still think she was trying to be "down" or whatever, BB have acted correctly and sent a strong message.
> 
> Good show IMO.


again, absolutely.

there is absolutely no place for it in such an environment, or pretty much any environment.

That's not to say I don't use the word at times, I do, with a cpl of very close pals, and only when we're in private and on a cus with each other.  But it took a long time to get to that zone of comfort with each other.


----------



## newbie (Jun 8, 2007)

yeah you've been misunderstood and asked to explain


----------



## Fuzzy (Jun 8, 2007)

ChrisFilter said:
			
		

> She said sorry loads of times..



all i heard was her saying "oh my god" repeatedly. maybe that was the 2 litres of cider i'd drunk so possibly wasnt hearing exactly what she said.


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 8, 2007)

goldenecitrone said:
			
		

> I didn't realise the word 'Yid' is actually Yiddish for 'Jew' and that some Jewish people use the word 'Yid' to each other as a sign of affection. If anyone non-Jewish said the word to them though it would be a major insult. Similar thing with 'nigga' then.


Spurs fans certainly do use 'yid' literally all the time and very vocally, they describe themselves as 'yids' and are collectively the 'yid army'.

It's commonly known as 'taking the term back from the racists' i.e. it was adopted   for the same reasons rap musicians adopted 'nigger' - you 'own' the term and turn it around.


Fwiw, If I understand the circs correctly, I have great sympathy for this girl, and the reaction is just more of the crass and ignorant hysteria that has become synonymous with mainstream English culture.


----------



## zenie (Jun 8, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> I bet she never said it to a black mate (if she has any) - so why did she say it to her housemate - she was thinking it and it slipped out - that makes her a racist IMO



I think she said she had black mates and they all uised the word. But then I've heard plenty of mixed race people described themselves and be described as half caste.

It's ignorance really isn't it?  

She did seem to know straight away though, or else she wouldn't have tried covering it up and not wanted to talk about it.

If she'd put her hands up and apologised straight away or asked Charley to explain it to her, and help her understand why people find it offensive then I'm not sure she would have been booted.


----------



## Jografer (Jun 8, 2007)

october_lost said:
			
		

> In a reality TV show, they have to expect people to be, well, er...'real'...but by all means emily is stupid



Yup, every village has it's idiot, and Emily is(was) the BB house's...  

...... anyway, it's not as if there's a shortage of replacements for the job...


----------



## Flashman (Jun 8, 2007)

I don't think there's been any hysteria at all actually, it's all been handled quite thoughtfully.

I haven't seen the papers or news since yesterday afternoon mind you.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Jun 8, 2007)

Fuzzy said:
			
		

> all i heard was her saying "oh my god" repeatedly. maybe that was the 2 litres of cider i'd drunk so possibly wasnt hearing exactly what she said.



When she was actually booted she said "I'm so sorry, I never meant to cause any offence, I'm so sorry, I'm just so sorry"


----------



## J77 (Jun 8, 2007)

newbie said:
			
		

> what does 'throw like a lesbian' even mean?


Yeah -- evryone knows lesbians can throw quite well.

I'm sure ch meant -- "throw like a gay"


----------



## Flashman (Jun 8, 2007)

zenie said:
			
		

> But then I've heard plenty of mixed race people described themselves and be described as half caste.



Really? Fuck me.

Even my father, who is a reasonably old white fella, says mixed race now.


----------



## Numbers (Jun 8, 2007)

Mixed heritage or something these days aint it


----------



## Numbers (Jun 8, 2007)

Flashman said:
			
		

> Even my father, who is a reasonably old white fella, says mixed race now.


In my home town the word is used to describe a shade of brown when speaking of clothes.

my mum used to use it, but these days she corrects people who use it.

((mam))


----------



## Flashman (Jun 8, 2007)

I've not heard half caste (ugh!) used by anyone I know this decade I don't think.


----------



## Flashman (Jun 8, 2007)

Tony Numbers said:
			
		

> In my home town the word is used to describe a shade of brown when speaking of clothes.
> 
> my mum used to use it, but these days she corrects people who use it.
> 
> ((mam))



Yeah I seem to recall it being an offiicial colour in knittting or summat


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 8, 2007)

Flashman said:
			
		

> Even my father, who is a reasonably old white fella, says mixed race now.


Which is dumb given there is, genetically speaking, no such thing as 'race' - using the term only propagates that myth.


----------



## Numbers (Jun 8, 2007)

Flashman said:
			
		

> Yeah I seem to recall it being an offiicial colour in knittting or summat


that's it.


----------



## newbie (Jun 8, 2007)

J77 said:
			
		

> Yeah -- evryone knows lesbians can throw quite well.
> 
> I'm sure ch meant -- "throw like a gay"


well done, it's big and it's clever and you're so cool


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

Flashman said:
			
		

> I've not heard half caste (ugh!) used by anyone I know this decade I don't think.


 Very popular expression it was,  died a death in the 80's and 90's.
I am mixed race, and say mixed race although I know some people who still say half caste.


----------



## Flashman (Jun 8, 2007)

London_Calling said:
			
		

> Which is dumb given there is, genetically speaking, no such thing as 'race' - using the term only propagates that myth.



We don't live in Islington though.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2007)

zenie said:
			
		

> I think she said she had black mates and they all uised the word.


I think she was justing saying that to get off the hook


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Flashman said:
			
		

> Really? Fuck me.
> 
> Even my father, who is a reasonably old white fella, says mixed race now.




I got called half caste at school and I call myself it, I don't see what's so offensive about it, only a fucking cretin would imagine it doesn't make you a full person or some such shite.

I mean in the 60's everyone was suppoused to use Negro instead of black and now it's reversed again.

Seems like there's an obsession with language because it's easier to police buzzwords than to actually engage with the deep structural aspects of racism that would actually require a depth of analysis beyond the superficiality of the contemporary post modern post political culture.


----------



## foo (Jun 8, 2007)

zenie said:
			
		

> But then I've heard plenty of mixed race people described themselves and be described as half caste. .



now this i've never heard.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but she's an idiot AND a racist



Thing is that she probably never even considered herself of being racist...IME it is quite often a case of people not realising that the are unconciously so...it's very easy to internalise ideas without realising. That said...the moment she said it she knew she had slipped up.


----------



## rorymac (Jun 8, 2007)

If I used the word yid for example and I might do and if I was in that programme and said it and then that fuckin simpleton who does the talking with the stupid fuckin long gaps started talking to me like it was me that was the simpleton then I'd make sure I found out where he lived and if it was Crouch End I'd fuckin kill him. I reckon I'd steam the fucker and call him a thick middle class cunt. I would definitely lose any composure I might have had and one of the bouncers would also get it. I would pretend to punch the big fat baldy bastard with my right hand but I'd deck the scenty looking one with a fuckin bullet southpaw right on the button. Fucking goodnight vienna.
That fuckin cunt who made the statement would get it too somehow. I bet she fucking lives in Crouch End too with all the Northern Irish loyalist bastards from the fuckin media. 
They're all fuckin cunts end of.


----------



## zenie (Jun 8, 2007)

foo said:
			
		

> now this i've never heard.




see above ^^^  

Yeh plenty of people I know still use it now, doesn't how much you correct them or tell them what it means some people will still say it.

They don't mean to be offensive they're just being ignorant.


----------



## zenie (Jun 8, 2007)

rorymac said:
			
		

> They're all fuckin cunts end of.




Here here!!


----------



## foo (Jun 8, 2007)

zenie said:
			
		

> see above ^^^
> 
> .




eh?


----------



## Flashman (Jun 8, 2007)

zenie said:
			
		

> Here here!!



Where? Where?  

Hear hear innit.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 8, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> I bet she never said it to a black mate (if she has any) - so why did she say it to her housemate - she was thinking it and it slipped out - that makes her a racist IMO



Yes, despite her claims I suspect she has very few black friends, if any. Words dont just 'slip out' unless your thinking it or you use them regularly.

I thought the 'you' bit was interesting as well, '*you*nigger' rather than 'nigger' which maybe someone would say if you were fucking around with a mate pretending to be street or whatever. I think thats what bothered Charlie as well.

She wasnt using it as an insult but she showed how she thinks.  Not sure whether she should have been evicted or not, I think Ch4 had to after the Shilpa affair but it could have been interesting to have her stay in the house and learn why its such an unnacceptable term.


----------



## Flashman (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> I got called half caste at school and I call myself it, I don't see what's so offensive about it, only a fucking cretin would imagine it doesn't make you a full person or some such shite.
> 
> I mean in the 60's everyone was suppoused to use Negro instead of black and now it's reversed again.
> 
> Seems like there's an obsession with language because it's easier to police buzzwords than to actually engage with the deep structural aspects of racism that would actually require a depth of analysis beyond the superficiality of the contemporary post modern post political culture.



There's no obsession here it was just odd to see the term crop up again.

 Friends of mine don't like the term so I don't use it, that is all.

If you don't mind it, fine.


----------



## foo (Jun 8, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Yes, despite her claims I suspect she has very few black friends, if any. Words dont just 'slip out' unless your thinking it or you use them regularly.
> 
> I thought the 'you' bit was interesting as well, '*you*nigger' rather than 'nigger' which maybe someone would say if you were fucking around with a mate pretending to be street or whatever. I think thats what bothered Charlie as well.
> 
> She wasnt using it as an insult but she showed how she thinks.  Not sure whether she should have been evicted or not, I think Ch4 had to after the Shilpa affair but it could have been interesting to have her stay in the house and learn why its such an unnacceptable term.



good post. agree with all that. 

zenie - what are you on about?


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

zenie said:
			
		

> see above ^^^
> 
> Yeh plenty of people I know still use it now, doesn't how much you correct them or tell them what it means some people will still say it.
> 
> They don't mean to be offensive they're just being ignorant.



yeah they're ignorant simply because they haven't kept up to date with whatever the new pc lingo is.

Like I said everyone rolled their eye's at the ignorant fools using black in the 50's and 60's instead of negro and now us so right on cats roll our eyes at folk who use negro or coloured instead of black.

it's almost like a fascination with semantics allows us to all pat ourselves on the back for being so right on meanwhile society never begins to approach the the actual dynamics, relations, inequalities and structures that produced and perpeuate racism.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 8, 2007)

Flashman said:
			
		

> There's no obsession here it was just odd to see the term crop up again.
> 
> Friends of mine don't like the term so I don't use it, that is all.
> 
> If you don't mind it, fine.



Innit, I dont know why this debate keeps cropping up here, as far as Im concerned it simple - if a group of people dont like a word being used to describe them then dont use it - its common courteasy as much as anything else.


----------



## jæd (Jun 8, 2007)

foo said:
			
		

> quite a lot actually. especially young black kids.
> 
> i didn't see this but from what i've read/heard, i agree with those who say - posh girl trying to act 'street' in front of her new black friend. idiot.
> 
> and yes, they were right in booting her out.



But would she be booted out if the whole Jade mess hadn't happened...? She's a very stupid girl for saying it, but then any girl that identifies as being a "whigger" would be...




			
				foo said:
			
		

> saw a glimpse of BBBig Mouth with Galloway <barf> and some journalist made a worthwhile comment about wondering if BB would be as strong on homophobic language/insults. i wonder that too....



Not sure... But if BB ignored any homophobic comments I'm guessing most of their (decreasing) audience would leave them...


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Thing is that she probably never even considered herself of being racist...IME it is quite often a case of people not realising that the are unconciously so...it's very easy to internalise ideas without realising. That said...*the moment she said it she knew she had slipped up*.


Then she knew it was wrong, which makes it worse IMO


----------



## ch750536 (Jun 8, 2007)

newbie said:
			
		

> yeah you've been misunderstood and asked to explain



huh?


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Innit, I dont know why this debate keeps cropping up here, as far as Im concerned it simple - if a group of people dont like a word being used to describe them then dont use it - its common courteasy as much as anything else.



and what if the myth of a homogeous group of people all being in agreement about the issue is actually an intregal part of perpeuating racism. What if god forbid people with dark skin were complex individuals with identities, thoughts and opinions not reducable to being black or asian or whatever?


----------



## chegrimandi (Jun 8, 2007)

Big Brother is rubbish this year - couldn't even be arsed to watch last nights after the 'race row'. They need to go back to the old format - all in at the start and stop fucking around with it. You don't get 'into' the people as you know loads of others will come in, secret houses - which are always shit etc...

anyway I'm delighted that little tory prick got cobbed out. She was a prize fucking idiot...

anyway everyone else must love it & vote as my work is one of the beneficiary charities this year...so vote you fuckers...(if they can manage to do a proper eviction at any point  )


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Then she knew it was wrong, which makes it worse IMO



or she didnt think anything was wrong till she saw the others reaction, which could of provided a good oppurtunity to have an honest discussion about race and language, except even the contestants knew that the media and unpolitical  cultural climate made that impossible.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> and what if the myth of a homogeous group of people all being in agreement about the issue is actually an intregal part of perpeuating racism. What if god forbid people with dark skin were complex individuals with identities, thoughts and opinions not reducable to being black or asian or whatever?



Then Im happy to call them whatever they want


----------



## zenie (Jun 8, 2007)

foo said:
			
		

> zenie - what are you on about?




That other people are saying they hear people saying half-caste instead of mixed-race.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Then Im happy to call them whatever they want



so potentially you could call some black people 'ya nigga's', some mixed race folk 'half caste', some 'afro carribeans' and so on, and you flip between all these different terms without being a racist, hence there is nothing essential the words someone uses and hence some silly posh girl trying to be street in no way means she is actually a racist.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Seems like there's an obsession with language because it's easier to police buzzwords than to actually engage with the deep structural aspects of racism that would actually require a depth of analysis beyond the superficiality of the contemporary post modern post political culture.



<So much bullshit. Must wade through try-hard nonsense>

Or maybe, just maybe, most black people wouldn't appreciate being called nigger by some ponceing know-it-all princess who hasn't experienced a fraction of the associations and venom that the 'n' word is usually uttered with. 

It's not about language or 'contemporary post modern post political culture' (snigger), it's about common sense and a little empathy.

Naive rather than genuinely hurtful perhaps, but her utter cluelessness got her the deserved boot.


----------



## zenie (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> so potentially you could call some black people 'ya nigga's', some mixed race folk 'half caste', some 'afro carribeans' and so on, and you flip between all these different terms without being a racist, hence there is nothing essential the words someone uses and hence some silly posh girl trying to be street in no way means she is actually a racist.




I don't think she was trying to be street. Using that word hasn't been acceptable on any street that I've been on!!

I think she and her all toff white friends use it and she probably doesn't come into contact with many black people, to pull her up on it for using racist language.


----------



## zenie (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Or maybe, just maybe, most black people wouldn't appreciate being called nigger by some ponceing know-it-all princess who hasn't experienced a fraction of the associations and venom that the 'n' word is usually uttered with.
> 
> It's not about language or 'contemporary post modern post political culture' (snigger), it's about common sense and a little empathy.
> 
> Naive rather than genuinely hurtful perhaps, but her utter cluelessness got her the deserved boot.




^^^word


----------



## Belushi (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> so potentially you could call some black people 'ya nigga's', some mixed race folk 'half caste', some 'afro carribeans' and so on, and you flip between all these different terms without being a racist, hence there is nothing essential the words someone uses and hence some silly posh girl trying to be street in no way means she is actually a racist.



Your a bright lad revol (though not as bright as you think) and if I thought you were serious about debating this issue, instead of playing juvenile games, then I'd bother to engage with you.


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 8, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> I thought the 'you' bit was interesting as well, '*you*nigger' rather than 'nigger' which maybe someone would say if you were fucking around with a mate pretending to be street or whatever. I think thats what bothered Charlie as well.


Fwiw, I read the exchange exactly opposite to this


----------



## newbie (Jun 8, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Then Im happy to call them whatever they want



Indeed. Amongst a mostly elderly group of my neighbours "coloured lady" would be considered much less impolite that "black woman".


----------



## Structaural (Jun 8, 2007)

I remember at school (around 60% afro carribean) half-caste was used up to about 1985 and then almost overnight it was changed to mixed-race and the natural 'peer police' made sure that this was the accepted term and half-caste was not on. Certainly beats 'redman' which my mixed-race mate has been called most of his life.


Anyway have some gossip from Popbitch:

'So indie-loving posho Emily gets canned from
   Big Brother for using a racist term to the
   show's only African-Caribbean contestant. While
   it's suspiciously convenient for Channel 4,
   it's hard to feel any sympathy when you
   hear Emily's friends springing to her defence.
   Here's "Lucie" on Facebook:

   "What the hell are you on about 'dirty racist',
   she was obviously blatently (sic) joking, it's not
   a big deal, it's only people like you and people
   who have got so strung up about little things
   that the person did not mean in offence that
   have made this country so god damn politically
   disgustingly correct! URGHH political correctness
   will be the downfall of ENGLAND. Don't take
   everything so seriously, learn to take a joke and
   have a sense of humour or you'll all end up
   like that idiot Charley."


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> <So much bullshit. Must wade through try-hard nonsense>
> 
> Or maybe, just maybe, most black people wouldn't appreciate being called nigger by some ponceing know-it-all princess who hasn't experienced a fraction of the associations and venom that the 'n' word is usually uttered with.
> 
> ...



as I said she was a niave silly posh girl whose experiance of race probably doesn't extend beyond a NERD album but it doesn't make her racist or to be more specific what she said racist.

I wasn't aware that being clueless was deserving of a boot and being labelled racist by sections of the media, especially as a sacrificial lamb for Channel Four, a channel who have made millions pushing edgy ironic ladden programming and who saturated us with Jimmy Carr ffs.


----------



## Structaural (Jun 8, 2007)

I think her and her friends are racist and the above and the 'you nigger' slip gives that away - not one rap song has 'you nigga' in it ('you ma nigga' maybe), and the way the she put the word onto Charly rather than used it inclusively. It's quite acceptable to be racist in certain upper middles class cultures. My stepgrandad freely used the n-word and he was a upper middle class freemason cunt.


----------



## Sweet FA (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> or she didnt think anything was wrong till she saw the others reaction, which could of provided a good oppurtunity to have an honest discussion about race and language, except even the contestants knew that the media and unpolitical  cultural climate made that impossible.


I agree with this. Emily's a stupid bastard and was rightly kicked out but there's absolutely no way she understands why. I bet she'll feel she was booted for a 'slip of the tongue' (I think she even said it was 'unfair', then told everybody how to feel about it - 'don't be offended', 'you can't be offended' etc ) not because she's betrayed herself as a racist. There are similarities with the CBB thing in that Jade/WAG girl said they weren't racist either; 'loads of black mates' etc. There's definitely an education issue here - why the word carries so much power, why it doesn't matter what your intention is when using it, why it doesn't matter that rappers use it, why context isn't relevant etc. I assume these issues won't be addressed (by BB or by the wider media) and therefore it's kind of a missed opportunity. Again.

I thought Nicky played a blinder though - telling Charley it was OK to be fucked off etc. I also thought Shab did the right thing (albeit in a wide-eyed, scary, shouty, pouty manner) by confronting Emily.

e2a @ revol68 tho' I disagree with you when you say that Emily's not racist. I think she is.


----------



## Structaural (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> as I said she was a niave silly posh girl whose experiance of race probably doesn't extend beyond a NERD album but it doesn't make her racist or to be more specific what she said racist.



What she said was racist. Whether ignorance or willful, that was a racist statement. And she's paid the price, as is often seen on these boards ignorance/stupidity is often no excuse. 



> I wasn't aware that being clueless was deserving of a boot and being labelled racist by sections of the media, especially as a sacrificial lamb for Channel Four, a channel who have made millions pushing edgy ironic ladden programming and who saturated us with Jimmy Carr ffs.



I agree with this though.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

> There's definitely an education issue here - why the word carries so much power, why it doesn't matter what your intention is when using it, why it doesn't matter that rappers use it, why context isn't relevant etc. I assume these issues won't be addressed (by BB or by the wider media) and therefore it's kind of a missed opportunity. Again.



utter bullshit! 

Of course intentions matter, of course context matters!

Growing up catholic in a loyalist town I got called fenian and taig quite abit but me and my prod mates still joke about with it and I don't take offence whenever they use it precisely because of the context and the intentions. 

And are you going to lecture rappers and other black folk who use it, and if that's the case what's the criteria for 'blackness' that allows people to use it?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> I thought the 'you' bit was interesting as well, '*you*nigger' rather than 'nigger' which maybe someone would say if you were fucking around with a mate pretending to be street or whatever. I think thats what bothered Charlie as well.


 Nail, hammer and head...she was looking at and speaking to Charley and she said 'you nigger'...after all there wasn't anyone else she would refer to like that around. It was a 'freudian slip', it was what she was thinking...Nicky probably qualifies for another name being Asian.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Then she knew it was wrong, which makes it worse IMO


 Agree OU. But hey, she's just learnt something at least...I hope people stop making excuses for her long enough for it to actually sink in. This isn't about Emily, it's about the ideas that she represents, afterall she isn't the only person who has them.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Nail, hammer and head...she was looking at and speaking to Charley and she said 'you nigger'...after all there wasn't anyone else she would refer to like that around...Nicky probably qualifies for another name.



eh yeah she did because Charley was doing some dance with her hips which Emily equated with urban hip hop culture which she in turn equated with being a 'nigga/nigger'. Emily was guilty of having an Alan Partridge moment but there was clearly no malice in it and it's sad that the issue couldn't be resolved in a manner becoming of adults, where Emily actually got clued into the nuances of the word, it's history etc, instead she gets made a sacrificial lamb for channel fours anti racist credentials and once again the media and all the right on crew can pat themselves on the back and tut at the 'ignorant' who don't know the rules of the game, how to encode racism like they do. 

fanfuckingtastic.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> eh yeah she did because Charley was doing some dance with her hips which Emily equated with urban hip hop culture which she in turn equated with being a 'nigga/nigger'. Emily was guilty of having an Alan Partridge moment but there was clearly no malice in it and it's sad that the issue couldn't be resolved in a manner becoming of adults, where Emily actually got clued into the nuances of the word, it's history etc, instead she gets made a sacrificial lamb for channel fours anti racist credentials and once again the media and all the right on crew can pat themselves on the back and tut at the 'ignorant' who don't know the rules of the game, how to encode racism like they do.
> 
> fanfuckingtastic.



You see, this sounds authoratative, but in fact you're making huge assumptions and believing that you've insight into the girl. In reality I doubt any of us really know if there was any 'malice' in what she said, or if she'll ever pick up on the 'nuances' of what she got wrong. She probably thinks that she invented the word 'nigger' in 1999, shortly after kicking off the nu-indie revolution and teaching the country to love skinny jeans again.

the media reaction's been fairly balanced imo. In between the 'pc gawn mad' manufactured outrage, there's a kind of acceptance that C4 wasn't left with that much of an option. Damned if they do, damend if they didn't


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2007)

newbie said:
			
		

> her acting cv says 'south Gloucestershire', which is more Cotswolds than Bristol



Nope, much of north/east bristol is tecnhically in south Gloucestershire, including her rather posh area - still fimly in Bristol. Far nearer to St Pauls and Easton than the Cotswolds


----------



## caught between. (Jun 8, 2007)

With reference to the eviction from the big bother house Emily Parr; I had to laugh because of the situation that occurred. Emily Parr, a Tory liberal, and hug a hoodie brigade thought she was dancing in her 'yard' with her 'gathering' 'mashing a beat' with her 'homees', thinking she was 'Lady sovereign', didn't understand that whites are white and blacks are black with two sets of rules. she knows now!


----------



## Kanda (Jun 8, 2007)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2003230001-2007260564,00.html

lol...


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> You see, this sounds authoratative, but in fact you're making huge assumptions and believing that you've insight into the girl. In reality I doubt any of us really know if there was any 'malice' in what she said, or if she'll ever pick up on the 'nuances' of what she got wrong. She probably thinks that she invented the word 'nigger' in 1999, shortly after kicking off the nu-indie revolution and teaching the country to love skinny jeans again.
> 
> the media reaction's been fairly balanced imo. In between the 'pc gawn mad' manufactured outrage, there's a kind of acceptance that C4 wasn't left with that much of an option. Damned if they do, damend if they didn't




i'm not claiming any special insight for all i know she could hold colonial themed parties and enjoy reenacting lynchings on her fathers estate, i merely going on what i could observe and in the given situation and context of her trying to fit in and befriend Charley it would rationale to assume she meant no malice. 

As for whether or not she will ever pick up on the 'nuances' well that's hardly the point is it.

Your probably right about her thinking her and her mates popularised the word nigger in 2004 after hearing it used by an obscure hip hop artist called 50 Cent.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 8, 2007)

Kanda said:
			
		

> http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2003230001-2007260564,00.html
> 
> lol...



Well its the Sun so I'dtreat with caution.

And I hate the way people have started using the term 'ethnics' 



> RACIST Emily Parr hates ethnics and the overweight — and branded a black girl a “fat n*****” who should “go work at KFC”.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 8, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Well its the Sun so I'dtreat with caution.



Absolutely, hence the *lol*


----------



## Flashman (Jun 8, 2007)

"She called me a fat lezzer" said Eva Novascotia, as she pocketed the £1500.


----------



## electrogirl (Jun 8, 2007)

she's obviously incredibly ignorant. "i have black friends!". the whole thing was completely cringeworthy.

reminds me of a posh friend i had at uni who genuinely thought black people weren't as evolved as white people, and that they were closer to monkeys. 

it's stuff like that which is too ridiculous to get your head round.


----------



## selamlar (Jun 8, 2007)

> She left to join BB before completing her Higher National Diploma



Whoopsee


----------



## newbie (Jun 8, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Nope, much of north/east bristol is tecnhically in south Gloucestershire, including her rather posh area - still fimly in Bristol. Far nearer to St Pauls and Easton than the Cotswolds


 ok, tvm


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

would it be okay to smash something round that cock Charley's face if it wasn't racially motivated, say like if her ugly face reminds you of her useless prick cousin or her utter vapidity, fame chasing and name dropping?


----------



## J77 (Jun 8, 2007)

newbie said:
			
		

> well done, it's big and it's clever and you're so cool


Thanks  

If I said to a gay friend -- you throw like a gay -- I'd just expect a reply like, "thank-you darling" or something equally appreciating.

For me, that's the way comments which may seem very un-pc on urban work in real life.

Though I'd never say or dream of thinking the n word.

There's some things which work, some which don't.

The Emily girl may have found it acceptable, black friends she has back home may find it acceptable -- the fuck up she had was that it slipped her mind she was on TV; school boy stuff that.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> would it be okay to smash something round that cock Charley's face if it wasn't racially motivated, say like if her ugly face reminds you of her useless prick cousin or her utter vapidity, fame chasing and name dropping?



The thing is most people don't like Charley not because she is black but because she is a shallow, vacuous, dole bludging, self centred tosser.


----------



## Jografer (Jun 8, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> still fimly in Bristol. Far nearer to St Pauls and Easton than the Cotswolds



Geographically speaking maybe, culturally however.... bet she's not rushing down to the Black Swan now she's free.....


----------



## Jazzz (Jun 8, 2007)

caught between. said:
			
		

> didn't understand that whites are white and blacks are black with two sets of rules. she knows now!



Is this ironic or not? As long as whites are white and blacks are black with two sets of rules, we have a racial divide. When they aren't then we won't have any racism. If she didn't understand this, then she wasn't racist.

That was the shame here, the intention was not racist, therefore it wasn't a racist comment, it would have done a hell of lot more for race relations IMO had the whole thing passed for the joke it was.

e2a: and there's the possibility she was set up specifically for this.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Jazzz said:
			
		

> Is this ironic or not? As long as whites are white and blacks are black with two sets of rules, we have a racial divide. When they aren't then we won't have any racism.
> 
> That was the shame here, the intention was not racist, therefore it wasn't a racist comment, it would have done a hell of lot more for race relations IMO had the whole thing passed for the joke it was.



I was guessing the irony was deliberate.


----------



## newbie (Jun 8, 2007)

J77 said:
			
		

> Thanks
> 
> If I said to a gay friend -- you throw like a gay -- I'd just expect a reply like, "thank-you darling" or something equally appreciating.
> 
> ...



if you put the emphasis on _friend_ then the banter is (presumably) neither considered derogatory nor offensive, though of course you don't really know that- being the butt of peer group 'jokes' isn't as pleasant as being part of the group poking fun, is it?  

But the original post said "throw like a lesbian" in the context of using it in more general conversation. I'm a bit baffled as to why you'd want to create and use a stereotype that might cause upset.  It seems like something best left behind in junior school playground.  

It would certainly be interesting to see how BB, the tabloids or the great British public would treat such a jibe.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> eh yeah she did because Charley was doing some dance with her hips which Emily equated with urban hip hop culture which she in turn equated with being a 'nigga/nigger'.



Erm NO! 
Charley was pushing her stomach out and saying she hoped she wasn't pregnant...Not very hip-hop. Keep trying though and you may actually find a credible excuse over the fact the girl has issues and thinks of black people as 'niggers', whether or not she is conciously racist.



> Emily was guilty of having an Alan Partridge moment but there was clearly no malice in it and it's sad that the issue couldn't be resolved in a manner becoming of adults, where Emily actually got clued into the nuances of the word, it's history etc, instead she gets made a sacrificial lamb for channel fours anti racist credentials and once again the media and all the right on crew can pat themselves on the back and tut at the 'ignorant' who don't know the rules of the game, how to encode racism like they do.
> 
> fanfuckingtastic.


 Stop making excuse s for her, you are not helping educate her either by doing so.

You do however make some good points about being held up as an example by Channel 4, too bloody right and all, it's about time as a country we came together and said this kind of shit ain't acceptable.

I'm not up for hanging Emily up for the vultures either...she has learnt a good lesson at best...the poblic humiliation of being removed from the show is enough IMO.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

It's wasn't really a joke though was it, more a smartarse comment. How the hell would letting a stupid girl depersonalise someone she barely knew 'improve' racial relations anyway?

It's not solely about intention anyway. People *do* need to show some sensitivity with words regardless of context - people may want to believe that their words can be judged in isolation, but when connotations and associations are so well developed, then there really shgould be caution in expression. It's like saying the word 'pikey' near travellers - the fact that some aren't using it to degrade romany gypsies, but instead mean it describe 'thieving, stinking educationally-subnormal ratboys' isn't much of a compensation

How many positive contexts and uses of the word 'nigger' are there anyway? Was Emily really taking a positive step to reclaim the word for priveleged white stupid college girls or something? Intention's often used as an excuse in my book - why not just avoid the contentious term in the first place?


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

Jazzz said:
			
		

> e2a: and there's the possibility she was set up specifically for this.



Christ. It's more fucking conspiracy theory material for you now. How perfectly tragic.

Did you know that Emily invented JFK whilst sitting on a grassy knoll in 1996?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

Jazzz said:
			
		

> Is this ironic or not? As long as whites are white and blacks are black with two sets of rules, we have a racial divide. .


 We don't have two sets of rules!!!!
The majority of black people do no use the word and actually hate it...and here's you saying we all do. Because we're all the same aren't we.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Erm NO!
> Charley was pushing her stomach out and saying she hoped she wasn't pregnant...Not very hip-hop. Keep trying though and you may actually find a credible excuse over the fact the girl has issues and thinks of black people as 'niggers', whether or not she is conciously racist.
> 
> 
> ...



oh go wank over a United Colours of Benetton catalogue, it's anti racism has more dpeth than your shrieking shite.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> why not just avoid the contentious term in the first place?


...Because she is used to using it...said so herself.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> We don't have two sets of rules!!!!
> The majority of black people do no use the word and actually hate it...and here's you saying we all do. Because we're all the same aren't we.



I made that point earlier, I came to the conclusion that you either have to have a pop at all people using nigger/nigga regardless of their skin colour or you accept that context and intentions is important and so don't get offended by rappers and kids using it as a term of endearment.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> oh go wank over a United Colours of Benetton catalogue, it's anti racism has more dpeth than your shrieking shite.


 Nice! Because my opinion isn't relevant, only your's  

and for your information...I'm typing calmly, not sheiking. You should try it, it might stop you from insulting people unnecessarily.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Nice! Because my opinion isn't relevant, only your's
> 
> and for your information...I'm typing calmly, not sheiking. You should try it, it might stop you from insulting people unnecessarily.




no your opinion is relevant, it just has as much guile as Charleys cousin.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> I made that point earlier, I came to the conclusion that you either have to have a pop at all people using nigger/nigga regardless of their skin colour or you accept that context and intentions is important and so don't get offended by rappers and kids using it as a term of endearment.



Or maybe you can just stop speaking theoretical bollocks and accept that the fact that (a) life isn't clear cut and (B) that someone's skin colour immediately affects the context. Your pious and simplistic conclusion isn't helpful.

How many kids do you know in England who say 'nigger' as a term of endearment by the way? I've lived in Brixton for pretty much all my years and even in the height of NWA mania I can honestly say that I've heard the term used jokily only a handful or two of times in my life, always in a self-reverential way with friends. That's a world apart from making a smartarse comment on national tv to someone you've barely met.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> (snigger)


sracist 

as i said on the other thread ithink the word need to be reclaimed it's the only way, like gay poof queer and faggot... having hallowed words which it's the unholyest of unholys to say or utter means they are not strpped of the power and are used as tools of oppression and that this continues.  ergo there is no difference between the use of the term nigger now and 100years ago, how can there be any form of racial progression where there are still hallowed words which differentiate groups of people and are used specifically for the singeling out and subjigation of that group... it makes equality a nonsense...

That's not to negiate the use of the word or to negate those people who have been abused by others in a racial context and have had nigger thrown at them as a term of abuse... 

but to have th OMG factor still in this day and age and actually in effect to have the cunt or fuck factor means that the realitiy is that there is no better intergration or racial harmony than there was in slave times... 

either that or we have to ban the word and never utter it again in any form banning it in all forms of culture litrature art cinema music etc...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> no your opinion is relevant, it just has as much guile as Charleys cousin.


 More petty insults?  
You are obviously not having a good day, and your humour is having a worse one.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 8, 2007)

He's just spreading a bit of anarchy, quiet day at the office Revol?


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

Is that anarchy then? Looks like the tired witterings of a second rate controversialist and serial gobshite to me. 

He's not even much cop on the footie forum tbh. At least there we know he's a jumped up lil plastic Man U fan on the wind up. Gawd save us from his contribution to the race debate.


----------



## STFC (Jun 8, 2007)

I haven't watched the incident, and nor do I have any intention of watching one minute of Big Brother. One thing that jumps out from the transcripts that I've read, is that the word is totally out of place in the context of the exchange between the girls. It doesn't seem as if it was said in a jokey imitation of 'hip-hop' speak, it was just bolted onto the end of a perfectly normal sentence. Weird.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

STFC said:
			
		

> I haven't watched the incident, and nor do I have any intention of watching one minute of Big Brother. One thing that jumps out from the transcripts that I've read, is that the word is totally out of place in the context of the exchange between the girls. It doesn't seem as if it was said in a jokey imitation of 'hip-hop' speak, it was just bolted onto the end of a perfectly normal sentence. Weird.


Like it was what she was thinking?


----------



## J77 (Jun 8, 2007)

STFC said:
			
		

> I haven't watched the incident, and nor do I have any intention of watching one minute of Big Brother. One thing that jumps out from the transcripts that I've read, is that the word is totally out of place in the context of the exchange between the girls. It doesn't seem as if it was said in a jokey imitation of 'hip-hop' speak, it was just bolted onto the end of a perfectly normal sentence. Weird.


But from a transcript you can't pick up the body language or tone -- I think I'll leave the "Emily" discussions now; I'll never see the clip, and this is making me talk about BB way too much  (just the way they want it )


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Like it was what she was thinking?


like she doens't know how to use a phrase she's heard but hasn't used... more like...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> like she doens't know how to use a phrase she's heard but hasn't used... more like...


 Not sure about that garf, I believe her when she said she has heard it used alot and has used it herself...I'm not saying she was sitting there thinking of charley as a 'nigger' in a nasty way...but I do think she associates black people with the word....unconciously probably, but thats besides the point.

and really the only time I've heard someone say 'you nigger' it wasn't in a nice way and definately wasn't by a rap artist.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Not sure about that garf, I believe her when she said she has heard it used alot and has used it herself...I'm not saying she was sitting there thinking of charley as a 'nigger' in a nasty way...but I do think she associates black people with the word....unconciously probably, but thats besides the point.



I agree, and she told Charley that she and her friends use it all the time.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 8, 2007)

Didn't she also say on her little introduction video that she hates ignorant or rude people....


----------



## Louloubelle (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Is that anarchy then? Looks like the tired witterings of a second rate controversialist and serial gobshite to me.



wot he (or she - sorry don't know) said


----------



## Louloubelle (Jun 8, 2007)

It's obvious to me that the girl is racist

While she might not be a "standing at the bottom of people's gardens in a white pointy hat burning crosses" type of racist, she obviously had some (probably unconscious) hatred or disrespect of African people that slipped out in her comment. 

I agree that the word "you" is also very relevant. 

Her reaction, to then try to deny that it was of any importance, was sickeningly typical of people who make similar disclosures and get caught out.  

I don't think she should be publicly crucified, as I think many people are guilty of the same thing except their racist disclosures don't happen where millions of people are listening on TV.  

She does seem to be a thoroughly unlikable person though, from the little I've seen on TV.


----------



## ch750536 (Jun 8, 2007)

newbie said:
			
		

> if you put the emphasis on _friend_ then the banter is (presumably) neither considered derogatory nor offensive, though of course you don't really know that- being the butt of peer group 'jokes' isn't as pleasant as being part of the group poking fun, is it?
> 
> But the original post said "throw like a lesbian" in the context of using it in more general conversation. I'm a bit baffled as to why you'd want to create and use a stereotype that might cause upset.  It seems like something best left behind in junior school playground.
> 
> It would certainly be interesting to see how BB, the tabloids or the great British public would treat such a jibe.



1. Locate Skin
2. Rub with wire wool for a few weeks.
3. Enjoy life.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Not sure about that garf, I believe her when she said she has heard it used alot and has used it herself...I'm not saying she was sitting there thinking of charley as a 'nigger' in a nasty way...but I do think she associates black people with the word....unconciously probably, but thats besides the point.



i think it's not going to have an other asscoiations really is it... 

she's clearly not bright she thought she invented skinny jeans and thinks indie music is new and that she hates ignorant or rude people....

people who make these types of claims, usually are filling for an inadiquacy they have in their lives and will ltach on to any passing train which seems populist in order to claim kudous and bask in refelected glory, she's seen the word used in mtv base songs by artists she probably has no conitiation of what they are singing about has seen it in films and is clearly deviod of any real world knowledge on the subject... 




			
				Rutita1 said:
			
		

> and really the only time I've heard someone say 'you nigger' it wasn't in a nice way and definately wasn't by a rap artist.



true enough someone has said it to me repeadtly about one of the club nights i was shooting (promoters a friend i and the rascist moron were the only whites in the buildign other than the staff...) i was mortified at the time; however i have had similar discussions with other patrons of the club who mention black time keeping, that blakc people are like this the difference between our culture and yours (pointing to me as a white male vs a black male, not strictyl true but there comes a point where you go what arab culture and black culture and get blank looks that you give the fuck up...) and have heard things which make me uncomfortable and would certainly see me lynched if they came out of my mouth.... 

These are popular monied events with in excess of 2000 at some of them usually no less than 800... and there is a consenious between this demographic of the black community who do use the term nigger and do make disparaging remarks about other black people to make me question heavly that it's only a minority group who use these terms with in culture as it were... 

some times i wonder if this is due to the type of people at these events rich self made business people of the upper middle class affulent type or if it's put on denigration to sound me out see how i react etc sometimes it sound liek someone been reading the dailymail too much there's not one single point of refference but many reasons why it's a term used within black culture, but it is used more widely than you small minority comment suggests....


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Louloubelle said:
			
		

> It's obvious to me that the girl is racist
> 
> While she might not be a "standing at the bottom of people's gardens in a white pointy hat burning crosses" type of racist, she obviously had some (probably unconscious) hatred or disrespect of African people that slipped out in her comment.



unlike you who of course identifies all black people as African and all africans as black.  

And she clearly meant it in 'i'm street and down with the urban vibe' way, i mean  the only other way it could be explained in such a context is if she is properly fucking mental, afterall she was trying to fit in and make friends at that stage, with her comfortable background and the ignorant bliss that entails towards issues like race it's not really that suprising she said something so daft without realising the offense she would cause. I mean this is a girl who thought she'd discovered this new genre called 'indie rock', her experiance of race probably amounts to shaking her booty to NERD.

But sure it allows the whole country to jump in behind the anti racism card because y'know everyone else is smart enough to encode it. This country needs these wee witch hunts of such crass language in order to convince itself it's still doing something about racism, that it's progressing, all the while the real dynamics fuelling racism continue on untouched, afterall who cares about poor housing, shit schools, structural inequality, and ghettoisation when Channel 4 have given us a sacrificial lamb to slaughter.


----------



## Numbers (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> oh go wank over a United Colours of Benetton catalogue, it's anti racism has more dpeth than your shrieking shite.


You are probably one of the saddest sacks of shite I've ever had the misfortune of reading.  

But you are fun, in a poke and prod kind of way.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> But sure it allows the whole country to jump in behind the anti racism card because y'know everyone else is smart enough to encode it. This country needs these wee witch hunts of such crass language in order to convince itself it's still doing something about racism, that it's progressing, all the while the real dynamics fuelling racism continue on untouched, afterall who cares about poor housing, shit schools, structural inequality, and ghettoisation when Channel 4 have given us a sacrificial lamb to slaughter.



Quite. I bet if she'd made some crass remark about refugees the gutter press would have lapped it up.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 8, 2007)

goldenecitrone said:
			
		

> Quite. I bet if she'd made some crass remark about refugees the gutter press would have lapped it up.


god damnit soem one up my medication i'm agreeing with revol...


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> But sure it allows the whole country to jump in behind the anti racism card because y'know everyone else is smart enough to encode it. This country needs these wee witch hunts of such crass language in order to convince itself it's still doing something about racism, that it's progressing, all the while the real dynamics fuelling racism continue on untouched, afterall who cares about poor housing, shit schools, structural inequality, and ghettoisation when Channel 4 have given us a sacrificial lamb to slaughter.



What a load of cock, straight from the 'not half as smart as I think i am' handbook of tired rhetoric. Someone being thrown out of BB for rule breaking is not consequential to the wider race debate, neither is anyone pretending that it is that significant. It's a silly strawman at best.

Go take your half-baked brainfarts of theories back to the politics boards, where you can have a circle jerk with other like minded irrelevants. This is the tv forum after all. You're not even vaguely funny or insightful.


----------



## N_igma (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> But sure it allows the whole country to jump in behind the anti racism card because y'know everyone else is smart enough to encode it. This country needs these wee witch hunts of such crass language in order to convince itself it's still doing something about racism, that it's progressing, all the while the real dynamics fuelling racism continue on untouched, afterall who cares about poor housing, shit schools, structural inequality, and ghettoisation when Channel 4 have given us a sacrificial lamb to slaughter.



Interesting, never thought of it in that regard. I suppose it's true.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> What a load of cock, straight from the 'not half as smart as I think i am' handbook of tired rhetoric. Someone being thrown out of BB for rule breaking is not consequential to the wider race debate, neither is anyone pretending that it is that significant. It's a silly strawman at best.
> 
> Go take your half-baked brainfarts of theories back to the politics boards, where you can have a circle jerk with other like minded irrelevants. This is the tv forum after all. You're not even vaguely funny or insightful.


if ti's not of consiquence to the wider race deabte at all then why was she kicked off a telly program... 

if it's as we all suspect she's a idiot rather than a fully fledge kkk member then where's the issue?


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> What a load of cock, straight from the 'not half as smart as I think i am' handbook of tired rhetoric. Someone being thrown out of BB for rule breaking is not consequential to the wider race debate, neither is anyone pretending that it is that significant. It's a silly strawman at best.
> 
> Go take your half-baked brainfarts of theories back to the politics boards, where you can have a circle jerk with other like minded irrelevants. This is the tv forum after all. You're not even vaguely funny or insightful.



when was the last time you seen racism discussed in a widespread manner within the media? 
This shit is just indicative of the retreat from politics, instead we live in a world of continual 'controversies', one headline to the next. any attempt towards a semi coherent world view or political ideology is swamped by the latest 'big issue', one week it's knife crime, the next guns, the next muslims, the next Maddie, another third world debt, then climate change, and then the good old staple of immigration, just no one actually try and join the dots unless they want to be labelled an ideological dinosaur.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> if ti's not of consiquence to the wider race deabte at all then why was she kicked off a telly program...
> 
> if it's as we all suspect she's a idiot rather than a fully fledge kkk member then where's the issue?



Erm, because she broke the rules of a tv gameshow, one that relies on the kindness of sponsors, general public and OFCOM?

There isn't a huge issue afaic. Silly girl says stupid thing on tv show. Gets kicked off as a result. End.

Pretenting it's of some great and lasting significance to racial relations in Blighty is just plain daft imo. It's not a distraction to the wider racial debate, perhaps something that provokes interest at best. I doubt the Uk's giving itself a collective pat on the back right now, sighing and suggesting 'phew, we've that race thing licked for good now...'


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> when was the last time you seen racism discussed in a widespread manner within the media?
> This shit is just indicative of the retreat from politics, instead we live in a world of continual 'controversies', one headline to the next. any attempt towards a semi coherent world view or political ideology is swamped by the latest 'big issue', one week it's knife crime, the next guns, the next muslims, the next Maddie, another third world debt, then climate change, and then the good old staple of immigration, just no one actually try and join the dots unless they want to be labelled an ideological dinosaur.



Pooh. It's another pile of tired generic theoretical bollocks, nearly entirely divorced from the original thread subject and wheeled out by you with tiresome regularity. If BB wasn't on, do you really think that the standard of political debate would be higher?

If you want a soapbox to stand on to make yourself feel bigger then I'll give you one. Can you just go away from this Big Brother thread now though.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Erm, because she broke the rules of a tv gameshow, one that relies on the kindness of sponsors, general public and OFCOM?
> 
> There isn't a huge issue afaic. Silly girl says stupid thing on tv show. Gets kicked off as a result. End.
> 
> Pretenting it's of some great and lasting significance to racial relations in Blighty is just plain daft imo. It's not a distraction to the wider racial debate, perhaps something that provokes interest at best. I doubt the Uk's giving itself a collective pat on the back right now, sighing and suggesting 'phew, we've that race thing licked for good now...'



oh don't be fucking stupid, we all know why there is a rule on racist language and not on calling someone a fat slag bitch or bastard, it's because it is political and the reason she's been booted off is because of the fall out of the Shilpa 'Sweatshop' Shetty and the thick trio episode.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Pooh. It's another pile of tired generic theoretical bollocks, nearly entirely divorced from the original thread subject and wheeled out by you with tiresome regularity. If BB wasn't on, do you really think that the standard of political debate would be higher?
> 
> If you want a soapbox to stand on to make yourself feel bigger then I'll give you one. Can you just go away from this Big Brother thread now though.



are you thick?

I'm saying that it's alot wider than Big Brother, I'm saying the fact that the two biggest discussions of racism in the media in the past year have been around Big Brother is merely symptomatic of the post modern post political culture (and don't snigger dipshit go learn something instead) that predominates in the west. The issue of race is reduced to individuals and more specifically individuals use of language, a post political world doesn't have a place for a deep analysis of structural inequalities that lie at the root of it and so seeks to suppress this by the hyper policing on a superficial level, an obsession with language over intentions and more importantly the encoding of bad old racism in new PC forms.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> , but it is used more widely than you small minority comment suggests....


 Sorry garf but no it doesn't..it may seem that way because it gets attention throught the hip-hip/street thing....but i go for months without hearing this word...it may be widely used but not by the majority of Black folk.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> if ti's not of consiquence to the wider race deabte at all then why was she kicked off a telly program...
> 
> if it's as we all suspect she's a idiot rather than a fully fledge kkk member then where's the issue?


 The issue is being 'stupid' isn't an excuse and will not be accepted as one.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> oh don't be fucking stupid, we all know why there is a rule on racist language and not on calling someone a fat slag bitch or bastard, it's because it is political and the reason she's been booted off is because of the fall out of the Shilpa 'Sweatshop' Shetty and the thick trio episode.



Christ. Let it lie you numpty. What part of that post contradicts what I said in the opening paragraph of my last post?

It still doesn't excuse your attempt to make a BB thread into another of your self-congratulating near-masturbatory threads about the wider world of politics. It's a storm in a teacup really  - naive girl says silly thing, gets thrown out, media has story in good news week. Let's not inflate it into something that significant.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Christ. Let it lie you numpty. What part of that post contradicts what I said in the opening paragraph of my last post?
> 
> It still doesn't excuse your attempt to make a BB thread into another of your self-congratulating near-masturbatory threads about the wider world of politics. It's a storm in a teacup really  - naive girl says silly thing, gets thrown out, media has story in good news week. Let's not inflate it into something that significant.



Thanks you've just affirmed by thesis.

Sure lets not delve to deep into the issues, lets keep it all on the surface, it's only a silly TV programme, stick to the issue at hand, don't go dragging your bloody politics into it blah blah blah. I mean yeah lets fill the papers with it, the news and all the rest but remember it's disposable pulp of no real significance. It's the perfect act of distancing, we drift along on a perpetually shifting current of 'issues' never having time to stop on one long enough to find our feet. 

I didn't order you from central castings did I?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Sorry garf but no it doesn't..it may seem that way because it gets attention throught the hip-hip/street thing....but i go for months without hearing this word...it may be widely used but not by the majority of Black folk.


and im saying that it is used widely with in the circles i move in amongst black people is it a suprise to you that differnet people have different experinces of the sitaution?


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Sorry garf but no it doesn't..it may seem that way because it gets attention throught the hip-hip/street thing....but i go for months without hearing this word...it may be widely used but not by the majority of Black folk.



but isn't that exactly the point?

the silly fannies experiance of black people is almost exclusively reliant on the 'urban' image, an image that Channel Four has done much to pimp itself.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> are you thick?
> 
> I'm saying that it's alot wider than Big Brother, I'm saying the fact that the two biggest discussions of racism in the media in the past year have been around Big Brother is merely symptomatic of the post modern post political culture (and don't snigger dipshit go learn something instead) that predominates in the west. The issue of race is reduced to individuals and more specifically individuals use of language, a post political world doesn't have a place for a deep analysis of structural inequalities that lie at the root of it and so seeks to suppress this by the hyper policing on a superficial level, an obsession with language over intentions and more importantly the encoding of bad old racism in new PC forms.



Well, whoopee fucking do. The media today likes sensation and a quick story. And did you know that the sky's blue?  In what world are people going to read a 'a deep analysis of structural inequalities' next to page 3 whilst eating their breakfast? Get a grip.

Strangely enough, in the real world folks who have really experienced racism do discuss it on a deeper level, not make snide little circular arguments on bulletin boards. It's perfectly possible to object to silly language on a gameshow and have a greater commitment to anti-racism that goes beyond surface levels. It's not an either/or thing, no matter how much high-falluting tosh you want to wrap up in  unnecessary  'post modern post political culture' (sic) schtick.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

[dp}


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> The issue is being 'stupid' isn't an excuse and will not be accepted as one.


where was i saying it was... 

no one is excusing this and i take offense that you are attempting to portray my comments in such a manner, and the inference this entails.

it is however, clearly the cause of the action.  the question is can the stupidity be challenged successfully by giving empowerment to those stupid people by gifting them a hallowed word?


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> and im saying that it is used widely with in the circles i move in amongst black people is it a suprise to you that differnet people have different experinces of the sitaution?



don't be soo silly all black people have the same experiance and they all speak with the one voice, afterall if they didn't where would leave the whole race relations industry gravy train?

Next you'll be telling me the MAB doesn't speak for all Muslims!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> and im saying that it is used widely with in the circles i move in amongst black people is it a suprise to you that differnet people have different experinces of the sitaution?



No not at all garf, don't be silly.
The only way we came qualify this point would be to count how many Black people you 'move' around and how many I do....which is ridiculous....it's clear we have different experiences.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> but isn't that exactly the point?
> 
> the silly fannies experiance of black people is almost exclusively reliant on the 'urban' image, an image that Channel Four has done much to pimp itself.


 So she now learns that 'that' image of black folk she has isn't true for all of us. That's a good thing.


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Thanks you've just affirmed by thesis.
> 
> Sure lets not delve to deep into the issues, lets keep it all on the surface, it's only a silly TV programme, stick to the issue at hand, don't go dragging your bloody politics into it blah blah blah. I mean yeah lets fill the papers with it, the news and all the rest but remember it's disposable pulp of no real significance. It's the perfect act of distancing, we drift along on a perpetually shifting current of 'issues' never having time to stop on one long enough to find our feet.
> 
> I didn't order you from central castings did I?



Show what a silly thesis you hold then. Are you really claiming that a silly argument on BB should serve as a natural, productive opportunity to discuss the wider subject of racism? And this would clearly change the media - getting all serious and insightful rather than the celebrity obsessed tomes of today?

Hell, I prefer to have a more consistent, deeper commitment myself. I remmeber the activities and headlines after both sets of Brixton riots well enough, the impact they and Scarman had. And it wasn't the actions of the media - still full of alarmist tales - that changed the balance.  In some ways I'm partly glad that anything like this cause ire and sympathy in the red tops - it shows we've come some way in a couple of decades. In another, it just echoes the triviality of the press. 

Either way and I don't believe this event is imbued with a fraction of the significance you're giving it.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Well, whoopee fucking do. The media today likes sensation and a quick story. And did you know that the sky's blue?  In what world are people going to read a 'a deep analysis of structural inequalities' next to page 3 whilst eating their breakfast? Get a grip.
> 
> Strangely enough, in the real world folks who have really experienced racism do discuss it on a deeper level, not make snide little circular arguments on bulletin boards. It's perfectly possible to object to silly language on a gameshow and have a greater commitment to anti-racism that goes beyond surface levels. It's not an either/or thing, no matter how much high-falluting tosh you want to wrap up in  unnecessary  'post modern post political culture' (sic) schtick.



Or maybe it's possible to see the tie in between the debate going on around Big Brother and wider racism, y'know to try and understand it's relevance within wider society?

And whilst the media has always tended towards sensationalism and the like, I don't think there can be any doubt that we've seen a retreat from politics over the past 20 years and more speficially an unwillingness to question the social economic system that spawned and perpeuates racism. As pathetic as the Labour socialist versus Tory conservative divide was it atleast represented a belief in the importance of the 'political' that is of an actual critique of existing relations grounded in a matrix of ideological and theoretical assumptions about the way things should be, today this is apparently old hat, it's no longer about principle or ideology it's about what works and by 'works' they mean what is the best way of administering the current socio economic apparatus, with any talk of changing the actual socio economic apparatus treated like the ravings of a loon. As such racism understood as a structural relation of inequality has moved into the background and instead we have a focus on individual behaviour and language, of course this might have something to do with the fact that the major effects of racism are mediated and inform class, and afterall we can't talk about such out dated things.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> No not at all garf, don't be silly.
> The only way we came qualify this point would be to count how many Black people you 'move' around and how many I do....which is ridiculous....it's clear we have different experiences.


true enough but i have givent he demographic which i 'move' in and have also stated i think that it's a class thing rather than a black thing...

self made monied peoples tend to wisht o distance themselves from their peers who they may have grown up with in order to reassert their status and justify their dissonence, is this perhaps why i hear it more than you do?


----------



## tarannau (Jun 8, 2007)

Christ, you're still waffling on. Does your brain bibble these cut and pastes, or is their some malign and boring force guiding you?

The trouble with you Revol is that you're far too impressed with the sound of your own voice. I'm committed to anti-racist activities, paid my dues to the community I believe, and even I can't be arsed to countenance your brain-numbingly trite attempt to shoehorn political debate onto a thread about  a crappy gameshow. You're not winning hearts and minds here. particularly with your patronising and oversimplistic analysis of the situation.

You sound like you believe Bazalgette and the circlejerk of media commentators far too much, giving BB far too much credence. It's a silly gameshow and this thread should reflect that


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> So she now learns that 'that' image of black folk she has isn't true for all of us. That's a good thing.



yes and would have been all the better learning about it from an actual black person, that is in an organic process, than by being hauled over the coals by the media and big brother. Surely the twats who knock up the bullshit Big Brother Mission Statement must have something in there giving lip service to a meeting of cultures and an overcoming of previous ignorances and stereotypes?

A potential oppurtunity for a real engagement with racism and language has been given up in order for Channel 4 to bulk out it's anti racist creditinials and to appease an intellectual climate in which the avoidance of offence or real conflict is to be avoided at all costs. Afterall if Emily had not opened her mouth and fucked up she could easily went back to her little middle class white bubble unchallenged in her beliefs about black people and 'their' culture.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> true enough but i have givent he demographic which i 'move' in and have also stated i think that it's a class thing rather than a black thing...


 I thouht you said 'the circles i move in amongst Black people'...I took that to mean the black people you move around use it...was I wrong?


> self made monied peoples tend to wisht o distance themselves from their peers who they may have grown up with in order to reassert their status and justify their dissonence, is this perhaps why i hear it more than you do?


 Not sure I get you here mate are you suggesting i am a self-made person and have distanced myself from my peers? Just to be sure before I respond...


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Christ, you're still waffling on. Does your brain bibble these cut and pastes, or is their some malign and boring force guiding you?
> 
> The trouble with you Revol is that you're far too impressed with the sound of your own voice. I'm committed to anti-racist activities, paid my dues to the community I believe, and even I can't be arsed to countenance your brain-numbingly trite attempt to shoehorn political debate onto a thread about  a crappy gameshow. You're not winning hearts and minds here. particularly with your patronising and oversimplistic analysis of the situation.
> 
> You sound like you believe Bazalgette and the circlejerk of media commentators far too much, giving BB far too much credence. It's a silly gameshow and this thread should reflect that



of course there is discussion that goes on outside the media about racism and other issues isn't this what this thread is about? About people having an analysis that goes beyond that which gets played out in the media?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> yes and would have been all the better learning about it from an actual black person, that is in an organic process, than by being hauled over the coals by the media and big brother.


She will surely hear that from Black folk now, after all she is now infamous for thinking she can use the word 'nigger.'
'm not up for hauling her anywhere, but agree with her removal.



> A potential oppurtunity for a real engagement with racism and language has been given up in order for Channel 4 to bulk out it's anti racist creditinials and to appease an intellectual climate in which the avoidance of offence or real conflict is to be avoided at all costs.


You have a point but to be fair I don't believe that would have happened if she stayed in the house.


> Afterall if Emily had not opened her mouth and fucked up she could easily went back to her little middle class white bubble unchallenged in her beliefs about black people and 'their' culture.


 Not really gonna be able to do that now though is she.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> She will surely hear that from Black folk now, after all she is now infamous for thinking she can use the word 'nigger.'
> 'm not up for hauling her anywhere, but agree with her removal.
> 
> 
> ...



the point is though that you can't have a reality tv show and then castrate it like this.

all my time at school i had more time for those who said sectarian things openly and in a challengable manner than those who encoded it or who just kept silent and didn't think it appropriate to discuss issues of 'politics and religion', they invariably turnt out to be closet bigots who lacked even the balls to put their assumptions on the line.

someone said something stupid about catholics because they knew no better never bothered me that much, on the contrary it was a chance to challenge it, the real bigots knew what not to say, knew to keep their thoughts to themselves or within closed groups.

As it is it's disempowering the Charley as well, Channel Four have essentially moved into to decide for her what she should be offended by and how she should react, it didn't even consult with her about it. Instead what should have been an issue between two adults (well two half witted morons tbh) has been jumped on by Channel Four so it can be seen to take racism seriously after it's fuck up last time.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2007)

She was obviously visibly offended


----------



## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> She was obviously visibly offended



she said herself she was shocked and that was clear, I think she took a while for it to sink in what was actually said but either way she said herself that she didn't think it was meant maliciously and infact one of the first things she said wasn't that she was offended personally but how it would play out on tv.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> the point is though that you can't have a reality tv show and then castrate it like this.


 Well of course you can when 'reality' the real world says that this behaviour is unacceptable as we 'society' in the real world don't like it...

Even more simply though you can kick her out cos she broke a rule...why the rules are there is another matter.


> As it is it's disempowering the Charley as well, Channel Four have essentially moved into to decide for her what she should be offended by and how she should react, it didn't even consult with her about it. Instead what should have been an issue between two adults (well two half witted morons tbh) has been jumped on by Channel Four so it can be seen to take racism seriously after it's fuck up last time.



Another good point about disempowerment...but tbh I saw more disempowerment in Charley when although she was obviously upset and disturbed by it she was also very embarrassed and didn't want to make a massive deal...you see racism is like that...it makes you start hating on yourself and you can sometimes not want to stick up for yourself cos you have internalised feelings of inferiority..... and no-one like 'uppity' folk do they.


As for channel 4's real motive better late than never...


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## Belushi (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> she said herself she was shocked and that was clear, I think she took a while for it to sink in what was actually said but either way she said herself that she didn't think it was meant maliciously and infact one of the first things she said wasn't that she was offended personally but how it would play out on tv.



Yes, I thought she was bewildered about why Emily should suddenly come out with it; and was torn between someone she'd thought of as a friend and the fact that it seemed to slip out so easily.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> she said herself she was shocked and that was clear, I think she took a while for it to sink in what was actually said but either way she said herself that she didn't think it was meant maliciously and infact one of the first things she said wasn't that she was offended personally but how it would play out on tv.


 She was upset, tried to style it out and be cool, but couldn't ...as the evening wore on it became clearer that she was pissed off and disturbed by it, whether she claimed to be ok or not.... She did see the ramifications of it being played out on TV, that is true...but I looked at her face and I saw my own mate, been in simalar situations you see, luckily not for a long time as I have a better choice of friend now and would not think twice about telling anyone what I did or didn't find offensive. Why, cos i am more empowered these days...the expression was one of hurt/disturbance/shock and trying to style it out but being unable to. Simple really and nothing new.


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## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

> Another good point about disempowerment...but tbh I saw more disempowerment in Charley when although she was obviously upset and disturbed by it she was also very embarrassed and didn't want to make a massive deal...you see racism is like that...it makes you start hating on yourself and you can sometimes not want to stick up for yourself cos you have internalised feelings of inferiority..... and no-one like 'uppity' folk do they.



Do you think Charley wanted Emily to go? Do you think Charley would have preferred to have been able to discuss the matter openly and honestly with Emily? As I said one of the first things she said was to not mention it because it would play out badly for the cameras and Big Brother would intervene, hence the pressure to not make a big deal out of it was to atleast partly out of concern of big brother getting involved in it.

And whilst i've not experianced racism i have experianced sectarianism whilst going to a protestant school and i appreciate that it there is always that aspect of not wanting to make a big deal out of it, to be seen as uppity, as someone who attracts trouble but on the same hand I resented attempts to dilute discussion and argument, to essentially avoid the issues and certainly didn't welcome overbearing involvement from teachers and the like.


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## Jografer (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> .....overcoming of previous ignorances and stereotypes?
> 
> .....she could easily went back to her little middle class white bubble unchallenged in her beliefs about black people and 'their' culture.



Your problem is that you complain about racial stereotypes, but still hold onto a terribly outdated stereo type of class.... apparently on the lines of the working-class hero/ middle-class running dog of capitalism model.

This 19 year old comes from a middle class suburb, but its a long way from being posh, and it certainly isn't all white. She evidently works at TGI Fridays, and (shock horror) black people have been known to go there, she is/was a student at Filton tech which is a multi-cultural college, mainly vocational rather than academic courses.

Unfortunately my guess is that there isn't any great conspiracy, she said something unthinking, stupid & wrong...  and rightly got taken to task about it. 

Of course you may be right, this may be a example of the ever-present class struggle being played out by media pupeteers in order to keep a docile proleteriat away from their historic destiny to build barricades and throw down their oppressers, however personally I go for the 'teenager makes idiot of themselves' theory...


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> Do you think Charley wanted Emily to go? Do you think Charley would have preferred to have been able to discuss the matter openly and honestly with Emily? As I said one of the first things she said was to not mention it because it would play out badly for the cameras and Big Brother would intervene, hence the pressure to not make a big deal out of it was to atleast partly out of concern of big brother getting involved in it.


 She initially reacted like that because she was embarrassed.


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## Belushi (Jun 8, 2007)

She seemed to get more and more angry about it as time went on and she'd thougt about it.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> She seemed to get more and more angry about it as time went on and she'd thougt about it.


 Of course, she did....it disturbed her. And the more it sank it the more it freaked her out.


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## Geri (Jun 8, 2007)

Jografer said:
			
		

> This 19 year old comes from a middle class suburb, but its a long way from being posh, and it certainly isn't all white.



I'd say Downend was pretty posh, and overwhelmingly white.

stats


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## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> She reacted like that because she was embarrassed.



of course she was embarrassed but don't you think it rather patronising to assume she is incapable of articulating herself, that she is soo confused with emotion that she is incapable of actually knowing her own mind and as such needs to be seconded guessed by big brother even if she explicitly said the opposite? Big Brother picking up the white mans burden, eh?

furthermore does big brother step in when people use sexist, homophobic or other language that offends or embarrasses another contestant?


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## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Of course, she did....it disturbed her. And the more it sank it the more it freaked her out.



so she should have spoke to Emily about it or just choose to avoid her if she thought she was actually racist.

afterall everyother contestant has to do that with other people, whether it's sexism, homophobia or other prejudices.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> of course she was embarrassed but don't you think it rather patronising to assume she is incapable of articulating herself, that she is soo confused with emotion that she is incapable of actually knowing her own mind and as such needs to be seconded guessed by big brother even if she explicitly said the opposite? Big Brother picking up the white mans burden, eh?


 Yes it can be patronising yes...but she was removed not just because it offended charly, she was removed because Channel 4 also have to think about the thoughts and feelings of the public. Emily broke a rule, she's out



> furthermore does big brother step in when people use sexist, homophobic or other language that offends or embarrasses another contestant?


 They bloody well should do. but please don't compare racisim to sexism and homophobia. Whilst there are parrallels to be drawn, camparasons are not useful and only serve to undermine. That plays straight into the hands of the right wing.


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## Jografer (Jun 8, 2007)

floria_tosca said:
			
		

> I'd say Downend was pretty posh, and overwhelmingly white.



Thanks for the site link, new one on me.

but...

still don't see Downend as all that posh, more than inner city Bristol to be sure, but not close to Clifton, Stoke Bishop, Westbury-on-trym, to name a few (not sure how well you know Bristol)

Take you point about the black population figures... suprised as well tbh, I wonder if the 2011 cencus figures will be the same. But Filton Tech is very mixed, culturally/racially.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> so she should have spoke to Emily about it or just choose to avoid her if she thought she was actually racist.


 .....and she may well have done just that but *get over it *mate...here in Britain a person calls another a nigger on national TV and said Tv show decides to remove that person, because it is seen unacceptable....it ain't rocket science why.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> I thouht you said 'the circles i move in amongst Black people'...I took that to mean the black people you move around use it...was I wrong?


huh?
yes i did i'm nto sure how it could be viewed in any other way... 




			
				Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Not sure I get you here mate are you suggesting i am a self-made person and have distanced myself from my peers? Just to be sure before I respond...


no i have no knowledge of you at all...

so clearly i'm tlaking about the people who i hang round with... and equating this to beign a class issue rather than a racial one... 

the less well off /workign class black people i know don't use the term as readily externally but do use it behind closed does in private.  where as the middle class black people i know do use it openly and also make dergoiorty comments by way of dissassocating themselves with their working class counter parts like the pikey/toff divide in white culture as a comparitive...


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## Belushi (Jun 8, 2007)

> well off /workign class black people i know don't use the term as readily externally but do use it behind closed does in private. where as the middle class black people i know do use it openly and also make dergoiorty comments by way of dissassocating themselves with their working class counter parts like the pikey/toff divide in white culture as a comparitive...



You mean like Chris Rocks Niggers/Black People routine?


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## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 8, 2007)

floria_tosca said:
			
		

> I'd say Downend was pretty posh, and overwhelmingly white.
> 
> stats


it's fucking enarly 100% white



> Estimated population by broad ethnic group, 2004
> Your neighbourhood 	South Gloucestershire 	England
> *White 	%	n/a	                      96.4	89.5*
> Mixed 	%	n/a	                      1.0       1.5
> ...


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## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> .....and she may well have done just that but *get over it *mate...here in Britain a person calls another a nigger on national TV and said Tv show decides to remove that person, because it is seen unacceptable....it ain't rocket science why.



yes but it raises the issue of about what makes words racist and a whole host of other issues, which is what we are discussing.

I mean you seem to want to discuss the issue but as soon as it starts going in a direction you don't like or disagree with you run back to 'rules are rules' which negates the whole point of having a discussion thread in the first place.

and personally I wouldn't want to see Big Brother intervene in every hurtful remark, I think it's pathetic and furthermore indicative of the increasing micro politics of the state in general.


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## Hellsbells (Jun 8, 2007)

Haven't read the entire thread, but it seems to me that maybe that emily is quite clever after all & maybe she knew exactly what she was doing. She's got people talking about her, she'll be in all the papers, have millions discussing her and will probably be remembered more than many of the other contenstants.


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## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Hellsbells said:
			
		

> Haven't read the entire thread, but it seems to me that maybe that emily is quite clever after all & maybe she knew exactly what she was doing. She's got people talking about her, she'll be in all the papers, have millions discussing her and will probably be remembered more than many of the other contenstants.



i'd seriously doubt it was part of a clever plan.

unless of course she's angling for the much rumoured remake of Lover Thy Neighbour apparently set to star Jimmy Carr.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 8, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> You mean like Chris Rocks Niggers/Black People routine?


pretty much ... 

it's a class issue... 

not a racial one...

in order to associate with working class to keep it real to show they have worked it up from the street they use the term possibly more liberally than their real life working class counterparts...

but it is used....

would it have been as bad if she'd used a snoopism like for shizzle my nizzle... (if she's even aware of it as a term...)


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## maldwyn (Jun 8, 2007)

Removing her was fair enough, to call her from her bed at 3am and humiliate her in the dairy room only to moments later throw her out without shoes/underwear seemed a hysterical response. 

I’d prefer BB to return to it’s social science format, give viewers adequate warnings concerning bad language/social attitudes - and stand back.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 8, 2007)

also there wasn't this much furore over sakia and her immigrants comments or maxwells immigrants comments or the yeah befores amar (i think) comments about gays .... or his other right wing views....


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## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

maldwyn said:
			
		

> Removing her was fair enough, to call her from her bed at 3am and humiliate her in the dairy room only to moments later throw her out without shoes/underwear seemed a hysterical response.
> 
> I’d prefer BB to return to it’s social science format, give viewers adequate warnings concerning bad language/social attitudes - and stand back.



but this way it's more in keeping with our over bearing paternal political climate of micro politics and hysterical outbursts.


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## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> also there wasn't this much furore over sakia and her immigrants comments or maxwells immigrants comments or the yeah befores amar (i think) comments about gays .... or his other right wing views....



apparently mentioning such inconsistencies lets the 'right wing win', which is funny as i'd have thought that the actual inconsistencies do that themselves.

also Amar was muslim so you're a racist if you make an issue of his homophobia and sexism!


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## Geri (Jun 8, 2007)

Jografer said:
			
		

> still don't see Downend as all that posh, more than inner city Bristol to be sure, but not close to Clifton, Stoke Bishop, Westbury-on-trym, to name a few (not sure how well you know Bristol)



I know it very well.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jun 8, 2007)

zenie said:
			
		

> I think she said she had black mates and they all uised the word. But then I've heard plenty of mixed race people described themselves and be described as *half caste*..



What a bizarre term.


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## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> What a bizarre term.



it comes from the indian caste system so it's probably not too common in North America.


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## LDR (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> also Amar was muslim so you're a racist if you make an issue of his homophobia and sexism!


What?  That makes no sense whatsoever.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> huh?
> yes i did i'm nto sure how it could be viewed in any other way...


It was your use of the word 'demographic' that did it garf...



> no i have no knowledge of you at all...


 Well you do know some things...just reading stuff here on urban tells you a lot about me, even if you weren't concious of it. But not important.




> so clearly i'm tlaking about the people who i hang round with... and equating this to beign a class issue rather than a racial one...
> 
> the less well off /workign class black people i know don't use the term as readily externally but do use it behind closed does in private.  where as the middle class black people i know do use it openly and also make dergoiorty comments by way of dissassocating themselves with their working class counter parts like the pikey/toff divide in white culture as a comparitive...


 The class point is an interesting one....and the idea that middle class Black people in this country readily refer to working class Black people like that turns my stomach.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> yes but it raises the issue of about what makes words racist and a whole host of other issues, which is what we are discussing.
> 
> I mean you seem to want to discuss the issue but as soon as it starts going in a direction you don't like or disagree with you run back to 'rules are rules' which negates the whole point of having a discussion thread in the first place.


Don't be ridiculous I'll discuss whatever aspect of it you want, I'm just not buying the channel 4 conspiracy thing, (although i'm fully aware they have their own agenda) and accept why she was removed from the house.
She went on a game show that has rules, she broke a rule. she was removed. All these are facts regardless of whether channel 4 is patronising charley by not letting her deal with it herself because the rules are there with the viewing public in mind as well as the housemates....who decides on the rules and why is another matter....



> and personally I wouldn't want to see Big Brother intervene in every hurtful remark, I think it's pathetic and furthermore indicative of the increasing micro politics of the state in general.


 I'm not into a hierarchy of suffering and comparing but I think they had little choice but to intervene in this situation.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

Hellsbells said:
			
		

> Haven't read the entire thread, but it seems to me that maybe that emily is quite clever after all & maybe she knew exactly what she was doing. She's got people talking about her, she'll be in all the papers, have millions discussing her and will probably be remembered more than many of the other contenstants.


 Unfortunately she doesn't appear to be that shrewd.


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## flash (Jun 8, 2007)

My 25 cents and am sure it will probably irritate people but still,

1) She's only 19
2) She's from the west country and not SW9 (lets be honest if she had used that term that losely south of the river, in that context she would have probably had a "yellow board" rather than a front page headline)
3) She used the word "you" instead of "my" and had 5 days of friendship instead of years of intimate friendship (to tell you the truth would have probably had to rearrange the whole sentance but anyhow)

I have lifelong close friends (not just sociable friends from work the small chosen inner circle, people that have your back and you have theirs regardless) that are black (I'm white) that I wouldn't consider using that word around (they aren't into street culture and it would just be wrong period). She just wasn't aware of the context or the culture, and is being scapegoated on behalf of the celebrity crew from January (who in turn were scapegoated on behalf of political correctness).


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> it comes from the indian caste system so it's probably not too common in North America.



I understand that. I just don't get the connection between the caste system, and children produced as a result of interracial marriage etc.


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## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I understand that. I just don't get the connection between the caste system, and children produced as a result of interracial marriage etc.



they were seen as not belonging to any caste, sort of falling through the net.

it's used in many different contexts, in England it's used in regards mixed race kids whilst in Northern Ireland it's often used to describe kids from mixed marriages.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2007)

Whatever, it's traditionally been used to demean and devalue the people the term has been attached to and although it's not used by many people who still use it, they should be made aware of it.


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## diond (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> they were seen as not belonging to any caste, sort of falling through the net.
> 
> it's used in many different contexts, in England it's used in regards mixed race kids whilst in Northern Ireland it's often used to describe kids from mixed marriages.


I work for local Government and a colleague's wife works in a department that deals with culture and such, and apparently *mixed race* is out, and now it it's fab to be called *mixed heritage.* I think it sounds classy myself.


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## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Whatever, it's traditionally been used to demean and devalue the people the term has been attached to and although it's not used by many people who still use it, they should be made aware of it.



yeah but how long until it ends up being taken back like Black, my mums generation grew up believing it terrible to call a coloured person or negro black and now can't understand why it's reversed, actually i can't really see half caste going like that, maybe it will be reclaimed like nigga by certain sections but it would be reclaimed precisely to spite it's demeaning history.

basically i just think there is an undue emphasis but on policing the language of racism and next to fuck all done in analysising or addressing it's material origins.


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## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

diond said:
			
		

> I work for local Government and a colleague's wife works in a department that deals with culture and such, and apparently *mixed race* is out, and now it it's fab to be called *mixed heritage.* I think it sounds classy myself.



oh yeah, i'm so silly i can't beleive i was stuck in the old modernist concept of biological race, the post modern race is based on culture.


----------



## Diana (Jun 8, 2007)

Well Laura's used the term "coloured" now so that backs up the "two people who are different to us" suspicions.


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## 118118 (Jun 8, 2007)

my brother went off about n** being after him and wanting to kill him, the other day. reckon it was the wrong choice of words, but i don't think that he's ever going to do anything remotely bad because of the words he uses. is that ok then? on the other hand, i've been around people who do use racist swear words, and most likely it signalled that they would be a cunt.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> yeah but how long until it ends up being taken back like Black, my mums generation grew up believing it terrible to call a coloured person or negro black and now can't understand why it's reversed, actually i can't really see half caste going like that, maybe it will be reclaimed like nigga by certain sections but it would be reclaimed precisely to spite it's demeaning history.
> 
> basically *i just think there is an undue emphasis but on policing the language of racism and next to fuck all done in analysising or addressing it's material origins.*


I don't think the term black has such a pejorative etymology, despite what you say.
I completely agree with the bit I've highlighted in bold though, but that doesn't change the fact that you should still address current sensibilities no matter how absurd you deem their historical origin - you still need to be sensitive.


----------



## diond (Jun 8, 2007)

There's also the saying 'nitty gritty' that originally had attached connotations of the slave trade. However, it seems to have morphed into an acceptable use in contemporary language. A saying is different to a label I know, but it shows that words are flexible and can change in impact given time.


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## revol68 (Jun 8, 2007)

yeah like someone saying 'throwing a paddy' it's clearly rooted in anti irish racism (as is paddy wagon) but i don't feel offended by it at all because the material conditions have changed and irish people rarely experiance racism nowadays.


----------



## dweller (Jun 8, 2007)

*nn*

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/3461

quite a good article about this incident here, 
sorry if it has already been posted. 
didn't want to trawl through 13 pages of this.....

disclaimer - I have no interest in the RCP , 
just got this off google news


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## 118118 (Jun 8, 2007)

I can get genuinely upset with some linguistic practices wrt 'mad' etc.. but i dunno, this surely is because of how 'nutter' can be used, depending on context, to indicate an unpleasent cunt that no-one likes and who probably wouldn't understand anyway.


----------



## HarrisonSlade (Jun 8, 2007)

Why would Channel 4 kick someone out of the house because they said the word "Nigger", and then show it to all and sundry the next evening? 

Channel 4 bosses have obviously used this footage to gain a bigger audience, and have therefore further become more embroiled into the whole row on racism as entertainment.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2007)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2007)

HarrisonSlade said:
			
		

> Why would Channel 4 kick someone out of the house because they said the word "Nigger", and then show it to all and sundry the next evening?


She didn't just say it, she called someone it. slight difference there...


----------



## 118118 (Jun 8, 2007)

i'm not entirely sure i can see the difference between 'n**' etc. and, well i can't think of an equally agressive single word, but whatever, 'special' will do for now. what do others think?


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## 118118 (Jun 8, 2007)

i'm not sure if i can justify a difference is what i mean. i suppose one could say that bedlam was quite a while ago, but i don't see that as justifying an intuition of different levels of cuntishness iyswim.


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## Geri (Jun 9, 2007)

flash said:
			
		

> 1) She's only 19
> 2) She's from the west country and not SW9



She's from bloody Bristol and we do have black people here you know!

Try reading the whole fecking thread and not just coming in on the end and repeating things which have already been said and dealt with.


----------



## Jografer (Jun 9, 2007)

diond said:
			
		

> I work for local Government and a colleague's wife works in a department that deals with culture and such, and apparently *mixed race* is out, and now it it's fab to be called *mixed heritage.* I think it sounds classy myself.



thought it was *dual heritage these days* ....


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## Louloubelle (Jun 9, 2007)

Jografer said:
			
		

> thought it was *dual heritage these days* ....




I can see how dual heritage would work for people with 2 distinct heritages but I would think most people are mixed cos they have more than 2


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## flash (Jun 9, 2007)

floria_tosca said:
			
		

> She's from bloody Bristol and we do have black people here you know!
> 
> Try reading the whole fecking thread and not just coming in on the end and repeating things which have already been said and dealt with.



Having had UWE as my second choice, and having friends in Bristol - I do realise that (that comic moment when I sat down with my sandwich in the main square, and a black person came up with a megaphone and started preaching about Jesus in a west country accent will stay with me forever - apologies to everyone I have just offended - I was bought up in zone 2, south of the river and had rarely heard that accent from a white person, let alone a black person). 

The point I was making is that Bristol is slightly less street than SW9. Hence she may have tried to hard to settle in and be cool with the people around her and used the term inappropriately. I think the whole point of this is about race and upbringing if we are trying to see it from the positive side. On the negative side she was just racist.

Anyway no further comments from me.


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## brokenyolk (Jun 9, 2007)

HarrisonSlade said:
			
		

> Why would Channel 4 kick someone out of the house because they said the word "Nigger", and then show it to all and sundry the next evening?
> 
> Channel 4 bosses have obviously used this footage to gain a bigger audience, and have therefore further become more embroiled into the whole row on racism as entertainment.



so as to clearly contextualise the incident, as required following ofcom's ruling.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jun 9, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> they were seen as not belonging to any caste, sort of falling through the net.
> 
> it's used in many different contexts, in England it's used in regards mixed race kids whilst in Northern Ireland it's often used to describe kids from mixed marriages.



Wouldn't it be easier to just call them niggers, or are british people too polite for that?


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## Harold Hill (Jun 9, 2007)

flash said:
			
		

> The point I was making is that Bristol is slightly less street than SW9. .



Go to parts of north Bristol much?


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## brokenyolk (Jun 9, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Wouldn't it be easier to just call them niggers, or are british people too polite for that?



I' don't think anyone should dignify your question with an answer.


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## revol68 (Jun 10, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Wouldn't it be easier to just call them niggers, or are british people too polite for that?



eh but they aren't they are half and halfs, neither white or black, we never had the one drop criteria over here.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jun 10, 2007)

brokenyolk said:
			
		

> I' don't think anyone should dignify your question with an answer.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 11, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> eh but they aren't they are half and halfs, neither white or black, we never had the one drop criteria over here.


Sory revol but have to disagree with you here...People don't often distinguish between being half anything. 
.. Although I do remember some kids at my school saying things like oh I didn't mean you, you are different you are only half black  I'd say something like oh yeah? Which half?


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## revol68 (Jun 11, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Sory revol but have to disagree with you here...People don't often distinguish between being half anything.
> .. Although I do remember some kids at my school saying things like oh I didn't mean you, you are different you are only half black  I'd say something like oh yeah? Which half?



maybe alot of people don't but I'm referring to actual state policy.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 11, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> maybe alot of people don't but I'm referring to actual state policy.


 Yeah we have a box to tick all of our own now.
I remember when we had to choose between 'black' or 'other'.


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## revol68 (Jun 11, 2007)

Rutita1 said:
			
		

> Yeah we have a box to tick all of our own now.
> I remember when we had to choose between 'black' or 'other'.



I get to tick irish ffs, mind you there are tossers born in England who are entitled to tick irish.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 11, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> I get to tick irish ffs, mind you there are tossers born in England who are entitled to tick irish.


Why shouldn't these 'tossers' identify themselves as Irish?


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## sleaterkinney (Jun 11, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Why shouldn't these 'tossers' identify themselves as Irish?


Would you want to be the same nationality as Seany?


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## revol68 (Jun 11, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Why shouldn't these 'tossers' identify themselves as Irish?



cos they're fucking english!

you're irish if you live in Ireland and these pricks should stop trying to jump on the ethnicity band wagon like everyother yank whose granny conceived whilst pished on Guinness.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 11, 2007)

If you are born into an Irish family in England, I believe it reasonable to still consider yourself to be ethnically Irish


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## revol68 (Jun 11, 2007)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> If you are born into an Irish family in England, I believe it reasonable to still consider yourself to be ethnically Irish



showing the utter bullshit that is ethnicity then.


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## Numbers (Jun 11, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> cos they're fucking english!
> 
> you're irish if you live in Ireland


u saying one has to live in Ireland to be Irish?


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## ice-is-forming (Jun 11, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> I get to tick irish ffs, mind you there are tossers born in England who are entitled to tick irish.



obviously tossers born in Ireland get to tick Irish too


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## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 11, 2007)

diond said:
			
		

> There's also the saying 'nitty gritty' that originally had attached connotations of the slave trade. However, it seems to have morphed into an acceptable use in contemporary language. A saying is different to a label I know, but it shows that words are flexible and can change in impact given time.


just for refference nitty gritty beign racist is an urban myth it was first record in print in the 1950's which would suggest it was long after slavery had dissappeared... 

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/nitty-gritty.html


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## GarfieldLeChat (Jun 11, 2007)

revol68 said:
			
		

> yeah like someone saying 'throwing a paddy' it's clearly rooted in anti irish racism (as is paddy wagon) but i don't feel offended by it at all because the material conditions have changed and irish people rarely experiance racism nowadays.


the orginal phrase is stuck in a paddy and reffers to rice fields ... it's corruption over the years has meant it's turn into having a paddy... and that paddy means tantrum... but hey if you want to view it as racist language... 

it's the whole niggardly ting all over again with stupid people thinking that words which have similar or partial inferred refferences are the same and racist...


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## revol68 (Jun 13, 2007)

GarfieldLeChat said:
			
		

> the orginal phrase is stuck in a paddy and reffers to rice fields ... it's corruption over the years has meant it's turn into having a paddy... and that paddy means tantrum... but hey if you want to view it as racist language...
> 
> it's the whole niggardly ting all over again with stupid people thinking that words which have similar or partial inferred refferences are the same and racist...



eh no, the throwing a paddy and paddy wagon both come from the stereotype (with some truth) of the Irish being prone to drinking and fighting.


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 13, 2007)

Does anyone still use the expression 'to call a spade a spade'?


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## Gromit (Jun 13, 2007)

goldenecitrone said:
			
		

> Does anyone still use the expression 'to call a spade a spade'?



I think you have to say shovel now


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## kyser_soze (Jun 13, 2007)

'Digging implement'


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## Fruitloop (Jun 13, 2007)

I was always unsure what sense of 'spade' was in question.


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## kyser_soze (Jun 13, 2007)

I'd always thought it was about, well, spades - the phrase means to be srtaight talking, which I can see coming more from talking about something simple and 'honest'...also it led to Wilde saying:

'Anyone who calls a spade a spade should be compelled to use one' - which would also indicate it's not about race...

BTW, I'll say what I said on the not watching thread...she used it cos she thought she'd be a wigga, and down with the sistas thinking she was jackie brown or some shit.


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