# Brexiteer complains he has to wait in queue at EU airport: ‘This isn’t the Brexit I voted for’



## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

You thick fucking twat. This is exactly what you voted for. 



> Brexiteer who was forced to wait in an immigration queue at an EU airport in Amsterdam has complained that "this isn’t the Brexit I voted for”.
> 
> Colin Browning, who described himself as one of the 17.4 million people who voted for Brexit, said he was forced to wait for nearly an hour at Amsterdam Airport Schiphol before his passport was checked.
> 
> ...











						Brexiteer complains he has to wait in queue at EU airport
					

‘I didn’t vote to stand in a queue for over an hour [while] some jobsworth checks our passports’




					www.independent.co.uk


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## Idris2002 (Feb 14, 2020)

Ah now, surely that's a joke.


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## ska invita (Feb 14, 2020)

parody account


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## ska invita (Feb 14, 2020)

The Independent doing its bit for the click bait culture wars


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## killer b (Feb 14, 2020)

Incredible bit of journalism there. Couldn't confirm it was real but knew it'd get the clicks so reported it anyway.


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## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2020)

killer b said:


> Incredible bit of journalism there. Couldn't confirm it was real but knew it'd get the clicks so reported it anyway.


And the utterly predictable replies


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Pretty sure there'll be plenty more actual people who think just like this when they find they can't swish through the EU lane on their way to Benidorm.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Mind you this could be worrying:


> On Thursday, the UK government confirmed that tough new travel rules will come into effect next year which could mean a traveller whose British passport has almost 15 months to run may be turned away from EU airports.


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## MickiQ (Feb 14, 2020)

I don't remember a box on the form "Do you want to wait in a long queue at EU passport control Yes or No?"
Being outside the EU is like being inside in one way, you accept there are both advantages and disadvantages, dumbass was probably in the wrong queue though, we can still use the EU ones for another 11 months.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

killer b said:


> Incredible bit of journalism there. Couldn't confirm it was real but knew it'd get the clicks so reported it anyway.


Check out the twitter account. He's real enough and every bit of a xenophobic cunt as you might expect.


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## marty21 (Feb 14, 2020)

He hates cyclists too


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## killer b (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Check out the twitter account. He's real enough and every bit of a xenophobic cunt as you might expect.



I'm not very interested in combing through random twitter user's posts tbh. I was commenting on the Indie's rush to report the latest thing trending on twitter without due diligence, not volunteering to carry out the diligence myself. 

It's a pisstake either way though, even if the account is genuine.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

Brexitpocalypse Watch
					

"Make Britain wait again".     Although these are the same gates we’ve been using for ages and the queue has no relation to Brexit whatsoever, it is interesting to see they have a Union Flag next to the Swiss flag. That’s new.




					www.urban75.net
				





ffs

I would hope that now it is a fait accompli that people would stop peddling lies. 

There are no extra queues. This whole thread is based on a lie. Shame on editor  for propagating it.

Brexit is shit, so is the EU. Fuck all of those cunts.


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## Teaboy (Feb 14, 2020)

killer b said:


> It's a pisstake either way though, even if the account is genuine.



Yeah this.  There's a only a few people in front him, this happens all the time.  Either its a parody account or he's real and having a bit of a joke.


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## killer b (Feb 14, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> Yeah this.  There's a only a few people in front him, this happens all the time.  Either its a parody account or he's real and having a bit of a joke.


It's a real failure of imagination to assume that people you're opposed to politically are deadly serious all the time - they mostly take the piss as much as you do.


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## Idris2002 (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Check out the twitter account. He's real enough and every bit of a xenophobic cunt as you might expect.



Very well, editor - you win this round. _But we shall meet again._


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> Yeah this.  There's a only a few people in front him, this happens all the time.  Either its a parody account or he's real and having a bit of a joke.



The flag to the left of the Swiss flag is the EU flag. All entrants to the Schengen zone must queue. This is the softest border that the EU offers. Entries from non-EU/EEC zones are far, far harsher.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2020)

Something about new customs checks on exports of gammon, I dunno you fill in the blanks.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I would hope that now it is a fait accompli that people would stop peddling lies.



I fully endorse the rest of your post but this bit seems hopelessly naive.


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## gosub (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> You thick fucking twat. This is exactly what you voted for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't vote for a Brexit that had anything to do with immigration.  It was the only consultation on ever closer union I'd had in my lifetime and the government spent tax payers money telling me if I was more in favour of a common market than a United States of EUorpe I should vote leave. 

 Hasn't worked out like that, but there was no point waiting for the next consultation as it was hard enough to get this one, and had it gone for Remain I'm damn sure it would have been taken as enthusiastic support for even more 'ever closer union.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

gosub said:


> I didn't vote for a Brexit that had anything to do with immigration.  It was the only consultation on ever closer union I'd had in my lifetime and the government spent tax payers money telling me if I was more in favour of a common market than a United States of EUorpe I should vote leave.
> 
> Hasn't worked out like that, but there was no point waiting for the next consultation as it was hard enough to get this one, and had it gone for Remain I'm damn sure it would have been taken as enthusiastic support for even more 'ever closer union.




Yeah, but musicians will now be subject to the same checks that they always have done. So well done, you massive racist, ignorant, hater of teh culture.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 14, 2020)

Presumably bigger queues at airports will disincentivise environmentally reckless frequent and unnecessary air travel. Would be interested in teuchter's view


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## gosub (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, but musicians will now be subject to the same checks that they always have done. So well done, you massive racist, ignorant, hater of teh culture.



62400 repitions don't make a truth,, just another form of tidious bigot


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 14, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Would be interested in teuchter's view



* files under 'things you never expected to read on urban'.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Presumably bigger queues at airports will disincentivise environmentally reckless frequent and unnecessary air travel. Would be interested in teuchter's view



That would just mean more obnoxious arseholes cluttering up the Westcountry every summer 

And then they'll be all like 'these Cornish roads are a right state, why is there no development funding going to this economically depressed region?'


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## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> That would just mean more obnoxious arseholes cluttering up the Westcountry every summer
> 
> And then they'll be all like 'these Cornish roads are a right state, why is there no development funding going to this economically depressed region?'


it's to attract the tourists who've only ever seen cornwall on poldark


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## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Would be interested in teuchter's view


good thing you didn't tag him, we'd never have heard the end of it


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> it's to attract the tourists who've only ever seen cornwall on poldark



Apparently you get loads of Germans in Cornwall on account of some German TV adaptation of one of those Daphne Du Maurier books.


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## killer b (Feb 14, 2020)

the roads in cornwall are mostly very well maintained IME - it's just that there's only one of them going in and out...


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2020)

killer b said:


> the roads in cornwall are mostly very well maintained IME - it's just that there's only one of them going in and out...



Well, three but yes. The main road into Cornwall, the A30, was one of many things improved with the help of EU funding.


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## Reno (Feb 14, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Apparently you get loads of Germans in Cornwall on account of some German TV adaptation of one of those Daphne Du Maurier books.


Rosamunde Pilcher is the one who is far more popular in Germany than in the UK and who had over a hundred of her mostly Cornwall set stories and books adapted for German TV.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

marty21 said:


> He hates cyclists too


He reposted a clip of some pitiful, cowardly cunt in a fast car pushing an old man off his bike into roadside hedges. Total scumbag.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2020)

Reno said:


> Rosamunde Pilcher is the one who is far more popular in Germany than in the UK and who had over a hundred of her mostly Cornwall set stories and books adapted for German TV.



That must be it then.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Brexitpocalypse Watch
> 
> 
> "Make Britain wait again".     Although these are the same gates we’ve been using for ages and the queue has no relation to Brexit whatsoever, it is interesting to see they have a Union Flag next to the Swiss flag. That’s new.
> ...


You don't think queues will be any longer once we're fully out of the EU? Good luck with that.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> He reposted a clip of some pitiful, cowardly cunt in a fast car pushing an old man off his bike into roadside hedges. Total scumbag.



Still, interesting to finally learn Spymaster's real name.


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## Chilli.s (Feb 14, 2020)

Looked like a woman pushed off to me, not even slightly funny.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> You don't think queues will be any longer now that we're out of the EU? Good luck with that.



Queues at Schiphol this week are no longer than they were in January.

True or false?

If true, which it is, what you have posted is a pack of lies. Why did you feel the need to spread lies?


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> Yeah this.  There's a only a few people in front him, this happens all the time.  Either its a parody account or he's real and having a bit of a joke.


His Twitter account suggests that you're wrong on both accounts.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Queues at Schiphol this week are no longer than they were in January.
> 
> True or false?
> 
> If true, which it is, what you have posted is a pack of lies. Why did you feel the need to spread lies?


Queues WILL be longer once we're fully out of the EU. True or false?


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Chilli.s said:


> Looked like a woman pushed off to me, not even slightly funny.


That makes it even worse. I hope they laughed so much they lost control of the car and smashed into a nearby wall.

*with no one seriously hurt, but the car a total right off, so the aforementioned cyclist - once recovered from their violent assault - could serenely cycle past and laugh at them. And then call the police. Hahaha.


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## tim (Feb 14, 2020)

Reno said:


> Rosamunde Pilcher is the one who is far more popular in Germany than in the UK and who had over a hundred of her mostly Cornwall set stories and books adapted for German TV.



How appalling! Hopefully BREXIT will mean that  Germans will no longer be forced to watch this bilge

**


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## Teaboy (Feb 14, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> ... Would be interested in teuchter's view



Post reported.


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## Sprocket. (Feb 14, 2020)

I just wasn’t born for these times.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Queues WILL be longer once we're fully out of the EU. True or false?




We are out of the EU and queues are no longer. So, false.


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## Steel Icarus (Feb 14, 2020)

Thick ignorant racist gammon-faced Brexiteers complaining 
Condescending snobby Remainers cheering as babies drown

Nuance, depth, sense, asleep at the wheel


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> *We are out of the EU* and queues are no longer. So, false.


Not really. Not until the start of next year at the earliest.


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## two sheds (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> We are out of the EU and queues are no longer. So, false.



We've still got their rules for another year though haven't we?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not really. Not until the start of next year at the earliest.



Is the UK a member of the EU? No? OK, so we're out of the EU. This isn't that hard.


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## Chilli.s (Feb 14, 2020)

I gave his twatter a cursory glance and concluded that he's an immature cunt with some misogyny  aggression issues that, given a few years and a few more life experiences will probably make him a bit depressed about his lack of empathy and his expanding loneliness. Bet he drives after a pint or two as well.


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Is the UK a member of the EU? No? OK, so we're out of the EU. This isn't that hard.


Yet the rules for being out haven't been laid down yet so we continue with the current rules for now. This really isn't that hard.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> We are out of the EU and queues are no longer. So, false.


Nopeity nope. Or as you would say, false. 

The  UK is currently in a _transition period_ with the EU during which travel arrangements will not change until January 2021. And that's when the queues will almost certainly get longer for what I hope are rather obvious reasons,


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

two sheds said:


> We've still got their rules for another year though haven't we?



Yes. And NO ONE KNOWS what will happen when the transition period ends. Except it seems editor who has some kind of portal to the future that neither HM Govt. nor the EU has access to.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Is the UK a member of the EU? No? OK, so we're out of the EU. This isn't that hard.


You're repeating the same mistake.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Nopeity nope. Or as you would say, false.
> 
> The  UK is currently in a _transition period_ with the EU during which travel arrangements will not change until January 2021. And that's when the queues will almost certainly get longer for what I hope are rather obvious reasons,



IS THE UK A MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION, YES OR NO?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> You're repeating the same mistake.



You are repeating the same lies.


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> IS THE UK A MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION, YES OR NO?


Don't be a twat.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> IS THE UK A MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION, YES OR NO?


You're going a bit gammon, mate.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> You're going a bit gammon, mate.



Keep telling the lies. Mate.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Don't be a twat.



So we're a member of the EU in your world. I see...


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## Steel Icarus (Feb 14, 2020)

Fucking taties


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So we're a member of the EU in your world. I see...


The UK is following EU rules this year. After that, things may well change as the UK will (presumably) be leaving the transition period and entering into  a new relationship with the EU, including new border arrangements, whatever those arrangements may be. For now, those arrangements have not been made so things carry on much as they were, but (caps lock alert) THAT SAYS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT HOW THINGS WILL BE FROM NEXT YEAR ONWARDS.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Queues WILL be longer once we're fully out of the EU.





editor said:


> the queues will almost certainly get longer



Pitiful.


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Pitiful.


Well, we'll see. Your history of predictions on here _cough_ KFC _cough_ is, shall we say, mixed.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The UK is following EU rules this year. After that, things may well change as the UK will (presumably) be leaving the transition period and entering into  a new relationship with the EU, including new border arrangements, whatever those arrangements may be. For now, those arrangements have not been made so things carry on much as they were, but (caps lock alert) THAT SAYS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT HOW THINGS WILL BE FROM NEXT YEAR ONWARDS.



They may well change, or they may not. I don't know, you don't know, editor doesn't know, no one knows. Therefore stating that border queues will get longer is a lie. TWAT enough for you?


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Pitiful.


Selective, deceitful and downright dishonest quote of the day goes to the Banhof. The actual sentence read (the bit in bold is the part he left out):


editor said:


> Queues WILL be longer once we're fully out of the EU. *True or false?*


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## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2020)

Sometimes get the impression that some posters who voted remain would almost like to see longer queues.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Selective, deceitful and dishonest quote of the day goes to the Banhof. The actual sentence read (the bit in bold is the part he left out)






			
				editor said:
			
		

> Queues WILL be longer once we're fully out of the EU. *True or false?*



No one knows. *True or false?*


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No one knows. *True or false?*


Why are you trying to misrepresent me by selectively and dishonestly requoting my words?


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> The  UK is currently in a _transition period_ with the EU during which travel arrangements will not change until January 2021.



Indeed, as you clearly knew/know, which begs the question why you started this thread, based on a fake news story.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Why are you trying to misrepresent me by selectively and dishonestly requoting my words?



Apologises, I assumed that you feared that queues will get longer after the transition period ends, if I that assumption is incorrect I retract that assumption wholeheartedly.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Sometimes get the impression that some posters who voted remain would almost like to see longer queues.


Not me.  I want free and unfettered access to the EU, and I want to be able to tour without having to pay for extra paperwork, carnets etc, or be subjected to border checks.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Indeed, as you clearly knew/know, which begs the question why you started this thread, based on a fake news story.


The article states that actually, but the _whole point of the story _is the stupid cunt's response to the queue he encountered. And as far as I can see, that's not fake at all.


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Not me.  I want free and unfettered access to the EU, and I want to be able to tour without having to pay for extra paperwork, carnets etc, or be subjected to border checks.


And despite the FACT that the UK has left the EU, this is still entirely within the power of the UK govt to achieve if it so wishes.


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## elbows (Feb 14, 2020)

I am in favour of broader bored eh checks.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And despite the FACT that the UK has left the EU, this is still entirely within the power of the UK govt to achieve if it so wishes.


Don't know about you, but I'm not holding out a lot of hope that travelling to Europe in 2021 with my band will be as seamless as it is now.


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## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Not me.  I want free and unfettered access to the EU, and I want to be able to tour without having to pay for extra paperwork, carnets etc, or be subjected to border checks.


Personally I don’t think the queues in most main airports especially those used by tourists will be any worse than they are now tbh.


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## pseudonarcissus (Feb 14, 2020)




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## two sheds (Feb 14, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Personally I don’t think the queues in most main airports especially those used by tourists will be any worse than they are now tbh.



Not sure whether that's true. I often recall overtaking long lines of people as I walked into the 'EU only' queue.


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## pogofish (Feb 14, 2020)

tim said:


> How appalling! Hopefully BREXIT will mean that  Germans will no longer be forced to watch this bilge
> 
> **




Have you watched much German TV in general - It is mostly not their highest/most developed form of cultural expression!


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## Spymaster (Feb 14, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Sometimes get the impression that some posters who voted remain would almost like to see longer queues.


I'm _sincerely hoping_ for longer queues for holders of UK passports.

It'll mean shorter queues for those of us with EU ones


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## Teaboy (Feb 14, 2020)

I really don't care.  Being a human and I'd only waste that precious extra time.  Might as well stand in the queue at least there is safety in numbers.


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## two sheds (Feb 14, 2020)

pogofish said:


> Have you watched much German TV in general - It is mostly not their highest/most developed form of cultural expression!



I always enjoyed the sports coverage of athletics. For 1500 metres and the like, the camera focused <all the time> on the German runner even if they were last.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Not sure whether that's true. I often recall overtaking long lines of people as I walked into the 'EU only' queue.


Yep. me too.


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## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Not sure whether that's true. I often recall overtaking long lines of people as I walked into the 'EU only' queue.


I suppose it’s where you go.Personally  I’ve never seen long queues at airports in Spain, France , Italy or Portugal for non EU tbh as the majority of people getting off the planes have been EU . As I said before Portugal is planning on introducing UK fast track lines alongside the EU ones, other countries reliant in tourism may well do the same . Anyway we’ll see .


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## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> I'm _sincerely hoping_ for longer queues for holders of UK passports.
> 
> It'll mean shorter queues for those of us with EU ones


Apart from when you are returning home 😂


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## Teaboy (Feb 14, 2020)

IME the worst queues are always at UK airports.  Then again I do tend to go to tin pot countries who just wave you through without looking at your passport.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> I'm _sincerely hoping_ for longer queues for holders of UK passports.
> 
> It'll mean shorter queues for those of us with EU ones


British people love queuing


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 14, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Apart from when you are returning home 😂



He could use his Irish passport going into the EU, and UK one when coming home.


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## two sheds (Feb 14, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> IME the worst queues are always at UK airports.  Then again I do tend to go to tin pot countries who just wave you through without looking at your passport.



Belgium


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 14, 2020)

Teaboy said:


> Might as well stand in the queue at least there is safety in numbers.



Try telling that to people queuing at Chinese airports.


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## Spymaster (Feb 14, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Apart from when you are returning home 😂


Then I'll use my UK one.

Dual nationality ftw


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## alfajobrob (Feb 14, 2020)

Can we ask Brexit to implement special queues for Musician's where they get forcibly strip searched and held for days whilst every part of their equipment and carnet is examined?


If so, it may speed things up for the rest of us normal folk.


We live in hope.


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## two sheds (Feb 14, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Then I'll use my UK one.
> 
> Dual nationality ftw



Two passports one is clearly forged they'll be pulling you out to one side for several-hour-long terrorist and money laundering checks


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

alfajobrob said:


> Can we ask Brexit to implement special queues for Musician's where they get forcibly strip searched and held for days whilst every part of their equipment and carnet is examined?
> 
> 
> If so, it may speed things up for the rest of us normal folk.
> ...


Awesome post bro'.


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## alfajobrob (Feb 14, 2020)

I don't travel a great deal anymore by plane, but when I do I don't consider it a massive imposition if passport control takes a bit longer wherever you are. So what if you have to queue!

You should be grateful they let you back in or anywhere.

If you want it tough, try owning a yacht and clearing immigration in a variety of ports.


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## skyscraper101 (Feb 14, 2020)

The queues aren't necessarily to do with Brexit. It's been a problem for people flying in and out of the Schengen area since 2017.


> The intermittent delays follow the introduction in March (2017) of new EU regulations in the wake of the Paris and Brussels terror attacks. The new rules demand both entry and exit checks on passengers from countries – including Britain – outside the 26-nation Schengen border-free zone.











						Passengers facing delays and long queues at some European airports
					

Holiday destinations such as Madrid, Lisbon and Mallorca affected amid shortage of border staff and tighter security checks




					www.theguardian.com


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## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2020)

alfajobrob said:


> I don't travel a great deal anymore by plane, but when I do I don't consider it a massive imposition if passport control takes a bit longer wherever you are. So what if you have to queue!
> 
> You should be grateful they let you back in or anywhere.
> 
> If you want it tough, try owning a yacht and clearing immigration in a variety of ports.


First they came for the travelling musicians , then they came for the yacht owners .


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

alfajobrob said:


> If you want it tough, try owning a yacht and clearing immigration in a variety of ports.


I'd like to try travelling by yacht please.


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## elbows (Feb 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> British people love queuing



You may have stumbled upon one of the less considered underlying drivers of Brexit.

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built the queue for em,
In Englands green & pleasant Land


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## Yossarian (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Don't know about you, but I'm not holding out a lot of hope that travelling to Europe in 2021 with my band will be as seamless as it is now.



But still, nobody knows what's going to happen - it's all up to the skill of Britain's leadership and its negotiating team now - how seamless immigration arrangements will be is going to depend on how much mutual goodwill and trust there is, and how much desire there is on both sides to put politics to one side and make life as easy as possible for the traveling public. 

So it's not 100% certain queues will be longer, only 99.99999999999999999%.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> But still, nobody knows what's going to happen - it's all up to the skill of Britain's leadership and its negotiating team now - how seamless immigration arrangements will be is going to depend on how much mutual goodwill and trust there is, and how much desire there is on both sides to put politics to one side and make life as easy as possible for the traveling public.
> 
> So it's not 100% certain queues will be longer, only 99.99999999999999999%.


I take it all back. With Boris at the helm, what can possibly go wrong? In fact, we'll probably go through immigration _even quicker_ now that our great nation has got independence from Europe and its bendy banana rules.


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## elbows (Feb 14, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> But still, nobody knows what's going to happen - it's all up to the skill of Britain's leadership and its negotiating team now - how seamless immigration arrangements will be is going to depend on how much mutual goodwill and trust there is, and how much desire there is on both sides to put politics to one side and make life as easy as possible for the traveling public.
> 
> So it's not 100% certain queues will be longer, only 99.99999999999999999%.



Well under that scenario I'm sure our glorious leadership will simply rebrand the humble queue.

My soopah computah, when fed with pertinent facts such as the nature of Johnsons favoured showboating public projects to date, and Cummings claim that he was disinterested in spin, made a judgement.

Its conclusion was simple. Those people are not waiting in a queue. They are merely taking a slow walk on a long bridge.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 14, 2020)

elbows said:


> Its conclusion was simple. Those people are not waiting in a queue. They are merely taking a slow walk on a long bridge.



From Scotland to Ireland?


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 14, 2020)

its an odd story

seeming as even when i fly into dublin with my irish passport and before Brexit

I still have a queue to get my passport checked


----------



## elbows (Feb 14, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> From Scotland to Ireland?



A queue by any other name may still be just as dull,
unless the bridge you're queuing on warns unexploded bomb!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> The article states that actually, but the _whole point of the story _is the stupid cunt's response to the queue he encountered. And as far as I can see, that's not fake at all.



So someone posts something moronic on Twitter and that’s basis for a thread in politics now? No wonder no one takes this forum seriously any more.


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 14, 2020)

the land bridge between ireland and scotland are they going to pave over the gaints causeway


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 14, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> the land bridge between ireland and scotland are they going to pave over the gaints causeway



A bridge to there would be a around 65 miles, not the 20 odd miles suggested.


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 14, 2020)

it may as well be a bridge to friggin american the dopey half witted cunt is planning

tis not going to happen


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No wonder no one takes this forum seriously any more.


I didn't realise you'd conducted a survey, although posters are of course free to ignore any threads that aren't _srs bsns_ enough for them.

One thing is rather strange though. If you don't like this thread, why are you the second most prolific poster on it, by a long chalk?


----------



## Azrael (Feb 14, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Personally I don’t think the queues in most main airports especially those used by tourists will be any worse than they are now tbh.


Since the fast lane is tied to single market countries, if Al Johnson pivots to the EFTA, they won't. This currently looks fantastically unlikely, so British citizens would be expected to join the non-E.E.A./Swiss queue, the one any remotely frequent traveller to the Continent will have noticed is often packed (and bizarrely, quite a few British travellers insist on using it).

Can't see this going down well with many who voted for Brexit, which, along with everything from job losses to the loss of pet passports, will pile on the pressure to get talking to Norway and pals.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> I didn't realise you'd conducted a survey, although posters are of course free to ignore any threads that aren't _srs bsns_ enough for them.
> 
> One thing is rather strange though. If you don't like this thread, why are you the second most prolific poster on it, by a long chalk?



Because I dislike the Trumpian way you are attempting to spread bullshit as fact.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Because I dislike the Trumpian way you are attempting to spread bullshit as fact.


You're the one that seems most confused about current border controls, but no doubt you'll be able to shout back another _devastating_ response IN CAPITAL LETTERS. 

*dons earmuffs


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> You're the one that seems most confused about current border controls, but no doubt you'll be able to shout back another _devastating_ response IN CAPITAL LETTERS.
> 
> *dons earmuffs



Enlighten me oh wise one, what am I missing about immigration controls? What changed when we left the EU two weeks ago? Nothing except at Amsterdam airport they added a Union Flag next to the Swiss and EU flag. Same queue for everyone as before. 

If I am missing something, now’s your chance to shine.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

Take your time editor


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Enlighten me oh wise one, what am I missing about immigration controls? What changed when we left the EU two weeks ago? Nothing except at Amsterdam airport they added a Union Flag next to the Swiss and EU flag. Same queue for everyone as before.


Nothing has changed yet because, I have already patiently explained many posts again, the UK is currently in a _transition period_ with the EU during which travel arrangements will not change until January 2021. And after that, things will almost certainly change and -  unless you blindly believe in the awesome negotiating power of the Tories - there is, I believe, a very good chance that things will get worse.

I do hope this fairly obvious statement will now fully sink in and you won't switch back to SHOUTY CAPITALS and employing unhinged, reality-lost words like 'Trumpian.'


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Take your time editor


Fucking hell. And now you're nagging me because I haven't answered your post within 300 seconds? You're really, really losing it here. I think it's time you step away from the computer before you burst a blood vessel or something.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 14, 2020)

marty21 said:


> He hates cyclists too


Did you think only normal people hated them?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Nothing has changed yet because, I have already patiently explained many posts again, the UK is currently in a _transition period_ with the EU during which travel arrangements will not change until January 2021. And after that, things will almost certainly change and -  unless you blindly believe in the awesome negotiating power of the Tories - there is, I believe, a very good chance that things will get worse.
> 
> I do hope this fairly obvious statement will now fully sink in and you won't switch back to SHOUTY CAPITALS and employing unhinged, reality-lost words like 'Trumpian.'



So nothing has changed and you have no idea if things will or will not change in the future.

Well done . Awesome thread.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Feb 14, 2020)

wow , are you two still at it ?

where's the love? it is clinton's day after all...  ♥


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> I take it all back. With Boris at the helm, what can possibly go wrong? In fact, we'll probably go through immigration _even quicker_ now that our great nation has got independence from Europe and its bendy banana rules.



Maybe after being incessantly reminded of Britain's contribution to the Second World War, they'll introduce a special fast-track "Liberator" queue where groveling Dutch officials will wave British citizens through after presenting them with flowers.


----------



## elbows (Feb 14, 2020)

ruffneck23 said:


> where's the love? it is clinton's day after all...  ♥



I did not inhale brexit relations with that woman.

Oh, not that Clinton.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2020)

Azrael said:


> Since the fast lane is tied to single market countries, if Al Johnson pivots to the EFTA, they won't. This currently looks fantastically unlikely, so British citizens would be expected to join the non-E.E.A./Swiss queue, the one any remotely frequent traveller to the Continent will have noticed is often packed (and bizarrely, quite a few British travellers insist on using it).
> 
> Can't see this going down well with many who voted for Brexit, which, along with everything from job losses to the loss of pet passports, will pile on the pressure to get talking to Norway and pals.


I can’t say I’m an expert of every EU airport but my experience of queues at the ones I use is very different , and you are right the non EU lanes are full of Brits . I think very often they sign posted as EU plus others.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Maybe after being incessantly reminded of Britain's contribution to the Second World War, they'll introduce a special fast-track "Liberator" queue where groveling Dutch officials will wave British citizens through after presenting them with flowers.


Tulips one would hope and small statues of some kid with a finger in a dam.


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 14, 2020)

ruffneck23 said:


> wow , are you two still at it ?
> 
> where's the love? it is clinton's day after all...  ♥



Ah, Clinton's day. Now we're getting somewhere.



> "This isn't the Brexit I voted for"



Depends on the definition of what *This *is...if *This *means this and never will be, that is not, that is one thing...

Hope that clears that up.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Nothing has changed yet because, I have already patiently explained many posts again, the UK is currently in a _transition period_ with the EU during which travel arrangements will not change until January 2021. And after that, things will almost certainly change and -  unless you blindly believe in the awesome negotiating power of the Tories - there is, I believe, a very good chance that things will get worse.
> 
> I do hope this fairly obvious statement will now fully sink in and you won't switch back to SHOUTY CAPITALS and employing unhinged, reality-lost words like 'Trumpian.'


tbf, the best hope for reasonable travel arrangements to/from the EU is the absolutely appalling negotiating power of the Tories. As Azrael said, there's a long way to go and a lot to happen, and while EFTA/Norway+ may look unlikely right now, come November it might be looking increasingly plausible.

As a British citizen, it is my sincere hope that the EU negotiators trample all over Boris Johnson's ambitions in every single sphere of the negotiations.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2020)

Open up the second front


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Open up the second front


Nothing good comes from the Tories getting what they want.


----------



## gosub (Feb 14, 2020)

ruffneck23 said:


> wow , are you two still at it ?
> 
> where's the love? it is clinton's day after all...  ♥


Probably at the dry cleaners


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2020)

My position would be on HS2, money for bus services, bailing out Flybee, money for high streets and what ever they get from Brexit negotiations is that they don’t go far enough rather than just opposing every issue they try and resolve .  I certainly be cheering on the EU either .


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 14, 2020)

How will it be any different to travelling to a non-EU country now? I don't recall ever having to wait for hours at passport control in a non-EU country. Although the last time I went to America, they did insist on doing an iris scan, which was a little scary, but I don't recall ever thinking 'I didn't think it would take this long'. I don't see how that's going to change.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 14, 2020)

So is this story by the op fake news or outrage porn?


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 14, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> So is this story by the op fake news or outrage porn?



Spread by fake delivery drivers.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 14, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Spread by fake delivery drivers.



Right, go on then - I’ll finally bite as this is the third or so time you’ve spouted that.

How am I a fake delivery driver?



If you could hurry up so as not to derail this thread any longer.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> How will it be any different to travelling to a non-EU country now? I don't recall ever having to wait for hours at passport control in a non-EU country. Although the last time I went to America, they did insist on doing an iris scan, which was a little scary, but I don't recall ever thinking 'I didn't think it would take this long'. I don't see how that's going to change.


I had a 3 hour wait last time I visited New York.


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 14, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Right, go on then - I’ll finally bite as this is the third or so time you’ve spouted that.
> 
> How am I a fake delivery driver?
> 
> ...



Because you aren’t a delivery driver.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> I had a 3 hour wait last time I visited New York.


Mine was Boston, and I was through in about an hour, but even at three hours, it's hardly the end of the world, is it? I've waited longer in my GP's waiting room for a pre-booked appointment.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> I've waited longer in my GP's waiting room for a pre-booked appointment.


Well there's a totally on-topic and relevant comparison, but it's great to know that you're so time-rich you're happy to wait three hours in any given queue.  Some people have places they need to be, and deadlines they have to meet, and they can lose money and sometimes their own job when they're unnecessarily held up by bureaucracy.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Well there's a totally on-topic and relevant comparison, but it's great to know that you're so time-rich you're happy to wait three hours in any given queue.  Some people have places they need to be, and deadlines they have to meet, and they can lose money and sometimes their own job when they're unnecessarily held up by bureaucracy.


It's not that I'm time-rich (but I actually am. I never have to be anywhere at any time  ). It's just that I'm a realist, and realise that travelling to another country may result in an hour or three between getting off the plane and exiting the terminal. If you have to be there before a certain time, take an earlier flight.


----------



## Azrael (Feb 14, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbf, the best hope for reasonable travel arrangements to/from the EU is the absolutely appalling negotiating power of the Tories. As Azrael said, there's a long way to go and a lot to happen, and while EFTA/Norway+ may look unlikely right now, come November it might be looking increasingly plausible.
> 
> As a British citizen, it is my sincere hope that the EU negotiators trample all over Boris Johnson's ambitions in every single sphere of the negotiations.


Given that some 60 Tory MPs voted for a basic E.E.A. deal in the indicative votes (and more would've if the payroll had been given a free choice), there's at least a theoretical caucus for it within the parliamentary party. They're currently whipped in every sense, but when the economic reality starts to bite, who knows. It's the only way Brexit has half a chance of being accepted long-term, so I'd be overjoyed if it somehow happened.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 14, 2020)

Honestly though, of all the many issues to get vexed about, including potential consequences of leaving the EU, waiting longer in airport queues is a bit of a shit one. And I say this as somebody who hates airports (am fine with flying, hate the stuff either end) and who fully understands how stressful flying with young kids etc is. But still.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> It's not that I'm time-rich (but I actually am. I never have to be anywhere at any time  ). It's just that I'm a realist, and realise that travelling to another country may result in an hour or three between getting off the plane and exiting the terminal. If you have to be there before a certain time, take an earlier flight.


Has that happened to you often on the Eurostar, then? Or between EU countries?


----------



## Azrael (Feb 14, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Honestly though, of all the many issues to get vexed about, including potential consequences of leaving the EU, waiting longer in airport queues is a bit of a shit one. And I say this as somebody who hates airports (am fine with flying, hate the stuff either end) and who fully understands how stressful flying with young kids etc is. But still.


Yeah well, this is the country that saw a string of news reports in the late '90s about the woes of family pets stuck in quarantine, leading to the pet passport scheme being set up. A successful Brexit's far likelier to be foiled by people having their holidays wrecked than any number of earnestly argued papers about a percentage drop in GDP.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 14, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Honestly though, of all the many issues to get vexed about, including potential consequences of leaving the EU, waiting longer in airport queues is a bit of a shit one. And I say this as somebody who hates airports (am fine with flying, hate the stuff either end) and who fully understands how stressful flying with young kids etc is. But still.


Exactly. Even if the story were true, it's still a non-story.



editor said:


> Has that happened to you often on the Eurostar, then? Or between EU countries?


I've never been on the Eurostar, and no, I've never had major delays at an EU destination, but I have had to wait an hour at Boston, which I didn't believe was anything remotely resembling a tweetworthy experience, and if it does transpire that clearing customs takes a little longer, what harm? It'll be one of the many joys of not being in the EU. Thankfully, I have an Irish passport


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 14, 2020)

Azrael said:


> Yeah well, this is the country that saw a string of news reports in the late '90s about the woes of family pets stuck in quarantine, leading to the pet passport scheme being set up. A successful Brexit's far likelier to be foiled by people having their holidays wrecked than any number of earnestly argued papers about a percentage drop in GDP.



Fair point. See also unavailability/high prices on non essential food & stuff. Although I don't see prohibitive checks/queues at borders being a real issue, maybe temporarily in right circs I suppose. But it serves noones interests.


----------



## MrSki (Feb 14, 2020)

Sorry I don't want to break the rules and just post a video. This thread is even more fucked than the UK will be next year. Colin is experiencing his 30 minutes of fame & has to live with it. For him it might even be worse than brexit.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 14, 2020)

Let's all laugh at everyone who voted for Brexit at every available opportunity, that will make us feel better right? _Told you. Fucking muppets._


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Well there's a totally on-topic and relevant comparison, but it's great to know that you're so time-rich you're happy to wait three hours in any given queue.  Some people have places they need to be, and deadlines they have to meet, and they can lose money and sometimes their own job when they're unnecessarily held up by bureaucracy.



It’s numbers.

Last time I landed in New York I had my missus and two kids with me, we walked off the plane, through immigration and picked up our luggage within about ten minutes of the 747 docking at the gate.

There were 400 people behind us.

The secret is positioning yourself ahead of them, if your time is so fucking precious that a thirty minute wait affects your schedule, buy a first class ticket. You’re a rock star after all...


----------



## MrSki (Feb 14, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Let's all laugh at everyone who voted for Brexit at every available opportunity, that will make us feel better right? _Told you. Fucking muppets._


I am not laughing but I hope those that did will stand up and own it.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 14, 2020)

https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/the-first-world-problems-of-urban-75.285394/
		










						The First World Problems Of Musicians
					

But the rain that flattens my hair ... Oh, these are the things that kill me    The Smiths, The Queen Is Dead   :(




					www.urban75.net


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 14, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Let's all laugh at everyone who voted for Brexit at every available opportunity, that will make us feel better right? _Told you. Fucking muppets._


Is that what's happening here?


----------



## Flavour (Feb 14, 2020)

whether they laugh or say "but this is what you voted for, northern thick racist pleb, suck it up now and enjoy the chaos you are totally responsible for as an individual voter in a referendum, prick" it's all the same.


MrSki said:


> I am not laughing but I hope those that did will stand up and own it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Let's all laugh at everyone who voted for Brexit at every available opportunity, that will make us feel better right? _Told you. Fucking muppets._



Anyone who doesn’t give a fuck about a political union with the EU is a “gammon”, after all.


----------



## MrSki (Feb 14, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Let's all laugh at everyone who voted for Brexit at every available opportunity, that will make us feel better right? _Told you. Fucking muppets._


Those laughing the most will probably have Russian accents to their laughs.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 14, 2020)

"this is what you voted for" in a yes/no on whether to be in a free trade bloc


----------



## Flavour (Feb 14, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> Is that what's happening here?


looks like it to me gauging from the first few posts of this thread, though i admit i haven't read all 6 pages.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Anyone who doesn’t give a fuck about a political union with the EU is a “gammon”, after all.


and deserves everything bad that happens to them as a result of brexit, unlike remainers, who are victims. here, go on, sign a petition to allow those of us who voted remain to retain EU citizenship, we love Europe!


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 14, 2020)

Flavour said:


> whether they laugh or say "but this is what you voted for, northern thick racist pleb, suck it up now and enjoy the chaos you are totally responsible for as an individual voter in a referendum, prick" it's all the same.


Has anybody said that?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 14, 2020)

Flavour said:


> and deserves everything bad that happens to them as a result of brexit, unlike remainers, who are victims. here, go on, sign a petition to allow those of us who voted remain to retain EU citizenship, we love Europe!


All I'm saying is that IF leaving the EU results in slightly longer dalays at the airport, it's not the end of the world. There are far more worrying ramifications.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 14, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Those laughing the most will probably have Russian accents to their laughs.



yeah cos without Russian interference remain would definitely have won right? it was the Russians what fucked our democracy. everyone was jolly well content with how neoliberal austerity was going up until 2016, before those pesky Russian cyberspooks started influencing people.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 14, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> All I'm saying is that IF leaving the EU results in slightly longer dalays at the airport, it's not the end of the world. There are far more worrying ramifications.


i agree


----------



## MrSki (Feb 14, 2020)

Individual votes don't really amount to much (Colin's vote did not swing it) unless you are claiming to be on the winning side which Colin is. When he realises that 'taking back control' starts to infringe on his day to day life then he needs to suck it up. What has been won & how will it impact on day to day life? Time will tell but anyone who voted for this shit should at least be honest enough to own up to it.


----------



## MrSki (Feb 14, 2020)

Flavour said:


> yeah cos without Russian interference remain would definitely have won right? it was the Russians what fucked our democracy. everyone was jolly well content with how neoliberal austerity was going up until 2016, before those pesky Russian cyberspooks started influencing people.


If you say so but I don't agree. The failure to publish the Russa report before the election & the lack of media scrutiny of the leave campaign during the ref. leaves a lot of questions unanswered. The PM had his £15K holiday in the Carib & claims in the register of members Interests that it was paid for by some JCB bloke who denies paying for it. There was a time when lying to Parliament was enough to end a political career but these days it seems to advance it.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 14, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Those laughing the most will probably have Russian accents to their laughs.



Have you ever taken a drink of vodka?



Spoiler


----------



## rich! (Feb 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Don't know about you, but I'm not holding out a lot of hope that travelling to Europe in 2021 with my band will be as seamless as it is now.


European bands won't be able to tour in the UK either, so we'll have a lovely monoculture where only UK bands can play gigs and eventually everyone will have heard them and gigs will stop existing.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 14, 2020)

rich! said:


> European bands won't be able to tour in the UK either, so we'll have a lovely monoculture where only UK bands can play gigs and eventually everyone will have heard them and gigs will stop existing.



As long as it's not all folk and harps and stuff


----------



## rich! (Feb 15, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> How will it be any different to travelling to a non-EU country now? I don't recall ever having to wait for hours at passport control in a non-EU country. Although the last time I went to America, they did insist on doing an iris scan, which was a little scary, but I don't recall ever thinking 'I didn't think it would take this long'. I don't see how that's going to change.


You've never arrived at Narita at the same time as a flight from the US full of people visiting their Japanese relatives.
Or, indeed, flew to the US in the last year. Every fucking US airport makes "non-US" wait for 2 hours.
Last time I went to SF, the entire queue let a nursing mother to the front. Immigration still dicked her around.


----------



## rich! (Feb 15, 2020)

editor said:


> I had a 3 hour wait last time I visited New York.


Autograph queue again?


----------



## rich! (Feb 15, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Honestly though, of all the many issues to get vexed about, including potential consequences of leaving the EU, waiting longer in airport queues is a bit of a shit one. And I say this as somebody who hates airports (am fine with flying, hate the stuff either end) and who fully understands how stressful flying with young kids etc is. But still.


It's a nightmare if you need people to travel for work.
"What time do we arrive so we can book a taxi to the meeting?" "Oh, we arrive at 6 to 11 oclock".


----------



## MrSki (Feb 15, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Have you ever taken a drink of vodka?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You still here you boring little cunt? Who cares about you?


----------



## rich! (Feb 15, 2020)

editor said:


> Has that happened to you often on the Eurostar, then? Or between EU countries?



Eurostar checkin has been shit for a couple of years in Brussels. On a bad day an hour from outside to the waiting area.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 15, 2020)

It doesn’t really matter if this Tweet is a hoax or not as once the anti-Brexit media pick it up they run with it as ‘look - proof Brexit is shit’ in a cringeworthy post fact manner.

Now that James O’Brien has passed judgement (the most ardent Brexit doomsday shaman) on all of this then that’s all the plebs need to understand.









						James O'Brien tells Remainers: Don't blame Colin, blame the leaders he believed — LBC
					

A Brexiter has been ridiculed on social media for complaining about a queue at an airport in Amsterdam. But James O'Brien told people to be angry with the leaders, not the people who believed them.




					apple.news


----------



## rich! (Feb 15, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> As long as it's not all folk and harps and stuff


We have both types of music. Crusty ska punk, and dub ska punk.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 15, 2020)

gosub said:


> I didn't vote for a Brexit that had anything to do with immigration.  It was the only consultation on ever closer union I'd had in my lifetime and the government spent tax payers money telling me if I was more in favour of a common market than a United States of EUorpe I should vote leave.
> 
> Hasn't worked out like that, but there was no point waiting for the next consultation as it was hard enough to get this one, and had it gone for Remain I'm damn sure it would have been taken as enthusiastic support for even more 'ever closer union.



That makes sense you're getting a like here from a remainer who can understand your point of view. Disagree with it though.


----------



## MrSki (Feb 15, 2020)

Tip of the Iceberg: More Connections Between Boris Johnson and Russian Influencers Emerge – Byline Times Well worth a read. Especially by twatface Marty1


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 15, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Presumably bigger queues at airports will disincentivise environmentally reckless frequent and unnecessary air travel. Would be interested in teuchter's view



Its an interesting arguement. Brexit isolationism and environmental sustainability.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 15, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Do you want my view?



Grrrrr?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 15, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Tip of the Iceberg: More Connections Between Boris Johnson and Russian Influencers Emerge – Byline Times Well worth a read. Especially by twatface Marty1


I'm really not arsed about the tip of the iceberg, so long as Brexit doesn't fuck up my supply of Iceberg lettuce.


----------



## Big Bertha (Feb 15, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Indeed, as you clearly knew/know, which begs the question why you started this thread, based on a fake news story.


It was a particularly egregious fake news story wasn’t it


----------



## Numbers (Feb 15, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It’s numbers.....


I’ll take one for the team.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 15, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> I'm really not arsed about the tip of the iceberg, so long as Brexit doesn't fuck up my supply of Iceberg lettuce.



You’ll get your Iceberg lettuces alright, only you’ll be queuing for hours to get one!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Tip of the Iceberg: More Connections Between Boris Johnson and Russian Influencers Emerge – Byline Times Well worth a read. Especially by twatface Marty1


Very interesting article


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2020)

Here's some of the grrrrreeeeaaat benefits of Brexit: 

Passports needing to be renewed 6 months before they expire
EHIC no longer valid and additional Health Insurance needed that doesn't include pre-existing medical conditions
Additional paperwork required for Art and Music on tour
Free mobile roaming charges may end
Four months minimum to arrange pet travel
Extra driving docs may be needed
At border control, you may need to show a return or onward ticket, show you have enough money for your stay and use separate lanes from EU, EEA and Swiss citizens when queueing
You may need to make a customs declaration if you take goods with you to sell abroad or use for business


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 15, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Because you aren’t a delivery driver.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 15, 2020)

editor said:


> Here's some of the grrrrreeeeaaat benefits of Brexit:
> 
> Passports needing to be renewed 6 months before they expire
> EHIC no longer valid and additional Health Insurance needed that doesn't include pre-existing medical conditions
> ...



All bollocks ATM, seems as no one actually knows what agreements are to come.

#ProjectFear.


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> All bollocks ATM, seems as no one actually knows what agreements are to come.
> 
> #ProjectFear.


Actually, all directly quoted off the GOVERNMENT'S OWN WEBSITE:








						Visiting the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein
					

What to prepare for travel the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein from 1 January 2021.




					www.gov.uk
				




#projectfear my fucking arse 

 😂


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 15, 2020)

editor said:


> Actually, all directly quoted off the GOVERNMENT'S OWN WEBSITE:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's advice of what could happen, not what will happen.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 15, 2020)

Just a load of stuff that may or may not happen.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 15, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Just a load of stuff that may or may not happen.


And even if it does, what's the big deal? Shit happens. Deal with it. Crying about it won't change anything.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 15, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's advice of what could happen, not what will happen.



True? The website on several of the points is certainly saying "will need" rather than "may need".


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 15, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's advice of what could happen, not what will happen.


Plenty of morons punting that stuff around as if it were fact though.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 15, 2020)

two sheds said:


> True? The website on several of the points is certainly saying "will need" rather than "may need".


Only on declaring cash that I can see. Most of it is "may". It has to be.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 15, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Only on declaring cash that I can see. Most of it is "may". It has to be.





> On the day you travel, you’ll need your passport to both:
> 
> have at least 6 months left
> be less than 10 years old (even if it has 6 months or more left)
> ...



is as far as I got. Not that I'm bothered though I've no intention of doing any travel


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> And even if it does, what's the big deal? Shit happens. Deal with it. Crying about it won't change anything.


It’s a wonder that anyone went in holiday before the EU


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 15, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> It’s a wonder that anyone went in holiday before the EU


No no. There was absolutely no world before the EU.

Life didn't exist.


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 15, 2020)

editor said:


> Here's some of the grrrrreeeeaaat benefits of Brexit:
> 
> Passports needing to be renewed 6 months before they expire
> EHIC no longer valid and additional Health Insurance needed that doesn't include pre-existing medical conditions
> ...



Sorry man but if that's the worst we have to worry about over Brexit (it isn't, but never mind that) then pfft. Most of that stuff is normal for beyond EU travel and stops literally nobody travelling.

I'm all for free movement, and schengen was great not having to stop when driving between Austria and Italy but ffs, that is not life-changing stuff you are quoting.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 15, 2020)

]


The39thStep said:


> It’s a wonder that anyone went in holiday before the EU



Going back before the EU, and even before the EEC, and no British bands ever toured Europe, and that's a TobyJug fact.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 15, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Sorry man but if that's the worst we have to worry about over Brexit (it isn't, but never mind that) then pfft. Most of that stuff is normal for beyond EU travel and stops literally nobody travelling.
> 
> I'm all for free movement, and schengen was great not having to stop when driving between Austria and Italy but ffs, that is not life-changing stuff you are quoting.


It's not even particularly bothersome.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> No no. There was absolutely no world before the EU.
> 
> Life didn't exist.


I had mates who holidayed in Albania , Yugoslavia . East Germany with the same preparation as going to the states . 


cupid_stunt said:


> ]
> 
> 
> Going back before the EU, and even before the EEC, and no British bands ever toured Europe, and that's a TobyJug fact.


And yachts had to left anchored miles out .


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 15, 2020)

I go abroad once every couple of years, I can't say additional paperwork for touring bands was uppermost in my mind when faced with the leave or remain option.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 15, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I go abroad once every couple of years, I can't say additional paperwork for touring bands was uppermost in my mind when faced with the leave or remain option.


If more people were concerned about touring band's paperwork the referendum result could have been a whole different ball game.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Feb 15, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> It’s a wonder that anyone went in holiday before the EU



They didnt. 
Butlins ruled.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 15, 2020)

Lupa said:


> They didnt.
> Butlins ruled.



The EU only came into being in 1993, I can assure you there was plenty of travel across Europe well before that.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 15, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> It's not even particularly bothersome.



You will have to show your passport, just like you currently do, so it’s easy to see why some people are getting all hysterical about it.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2020)

Lupa said:


> They didnt.
> Butlins ruled.


I was a great fan of Butlins but Benidorm’s highest tourist year was set in the 70s .


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Feb 15, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I was a great fan of Butlins but Benidorm’s highest tourist year was set in the 70s .



Yeh. I was thinking of the EC. 🥴


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's advice of what could happen, not what will happen.


So it's the _government_ spreading #projectfear?! Why would they do that?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2020)

Lupa said:


> Yeh. I was thinking of the EC. 🥴


I think the growth of the tourist industry both in Spain and Portugal began when both countries had dictators . Probably Greece as well .


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Sorry man but if that's the worst we have to worry about over Brexit (it isn't, but never mind that) then pfft. Most of that stuff is normal for beyond EU travel and stops literally nobody travelling.
> 
> I'm all for free movement, and schengen was great not having to stop when driving between Austria and Italy but ffs, that is not life-changing stuff you are quoting.


I'm quoting the bare minimum of what might happen, but with Boris leading the Brexit bus and cheered on by Farage and the right wing lunkheads, I fear far worse is to come.

What do you think are the good things we can all look forward to out of Brexit? (obvs not the NHS windfall because that was a pack of lies).


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2020)

editor said:


> So it's the _government_ spreading #projectfear?! Why would they do that?


I’ll get shot down for this but if govt departments didn’t issue up to date advice that included mays on a regular basis then everyone would be up in arms about not being informed. It’s a fluid and dynamic situation so best cover all bases.


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I’ll get shot down for this but if govt departments didn’t issue up to date advice that included mays on a regular basis then everyone would be up in arms about not being informed. It’s a fluid and dynamic situation so best cover all bases.


Yes, but that advice was dismissed as #projectfear when I posted it.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm quoting the bare minimum of what might happen, but with Boris leading the Brexit bus and cheered on by Farage and the right wing lunkheads, I fear far worse is to come.
> 
> What do you think are the good things we can all look forward to out of Brexit?


Johnson’s got a big majority whether he’s being cheered in by Farage or not is frankly irrelevant . That ship has sailed .


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 15, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Because you aren’t a delivery driver.





Then wtf am I doing delivering parcels all day then?


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 15, 2020)

editor said:


> What do you think are the good things we can all look forward to out of Brexit? (obvs not the NHS windfall because that was a pack of lies).



Straight bananas obvs. 

The end of UKIP and the Brexit Party?

Seriously dude, wtf? Why are you even asking me that? Because I've criticized your laying out of a few harmless consequences makes me some sort of Faragian? Get a grip. The implication in my post was that there is big shit to come because of Brexit, just not what you are talking about here. Which isn't big shit at all.

/NeitherBrusselsnorWestminster. Nor the SWP before anyone starts.


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 15, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Then wtf am I doing delivering parcels all day then?



Learning the perils of being a right wing cunt.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 15, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I think the growth of the tourist industry both in Spain and Portugal began when both countries had dictators . Probably Greece as well .



Thailand is still wildly popular with tourists and gap yah types, pretty dodgy government there last time I checked.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 15, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Thailand is still wildly popular with tourists and gap yah types, pretty dodgy government there last time I checked.



Not in the EU, how on earth do people manage to get in? Last time I went I had to fill out a form on the plane and stand in a queue for literally six minutes. Ball ache extrodinaire. Fucking Farage’s fault.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 15, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not in the EU, how on earth do people manage to get in? Last time I went I had to fill out a form on the plane and stand in a queue for literally six minutes. Ball ache extrodinaire. Fucking Farage’s fault.



You'll know more than me about this stuff, but I remember going to croatia pre joining EU, sometime around early 00s so at that time they aspired to EU but by no means a given they would get in any time soon, and we flew through customs while a flight came in just before us, russia, they got the (literal) big guns out for, poor fuckers looked like they'd be queuing for days. Almost like it's possible to reach agreements with other states which takes account of stuff like governance etc


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 15, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> You'll know more than me about this stuff, but I remember going to croatia pre joining EU, sometime around early 00s so at that time they aspired to EU but by no means a given they would get in any time soon, and we flew through customs while a flight came in just before us, russia, they got the (literal) big guns out for, poor fuckers looked like they'd be queuing for days. Almost like it's possible to reach agreements with other states which takes account of stuff like governance etc



Some borders take ages to cross, others are quicker. First time I went to India the prick stared at my visa stamped in my passport for a full five minutes. What was he looking at? Three hundred passengers on my flight, three hundred on the Monarch that landed five minutes later, two divs who stared at ink in a page for five minutes each passenger.

Other countries just process you.

Best guess come the end of the transition period is that it will be exactly the same as now, the sole difference being that you will need a minimum of six months left on your passport. The EU is introducing an ESTA style system, this is for everyone outside of the Schengen zone to comply with, but just watch dickeads like the OP get the vapours over it and pretend it is linked...


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2020)

Amusing, well i found it amusing.  quote from Twitter thats pertinent to this 



> It was ‘free movement of goods, services, capital and labour’. It was an economic policy.  It wasn’t ‘free movement of liberal blob melts to ponce around Europe, thinking they are Oscar Wilde on a gap year.’


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 15, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> The end of UKIP and the Brexit Party?



hmm

on current performance, the tory party hasn't got far to go before it turns in to ukip, and is in power...


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2020)

editor said:


> Here's some of the grrrrreeeeaaat benefits of Brexit:
> 
> Passports needing to be renewed 6 months before they expire
> EHIC no longer valid and additional Health Insurance needed that doesn't include pre-existing medical conditions
> ...



Being in London ,where in my day to day work a lot of the people I deal with are from other EU countries, the blase attitude seen in posts here that nothing is decided yet , it will be alright in the end and so stop making a fuss is not reflected in what I hear from my EU friends.

Given that this country has a particularly obnoxious right wing Tory govenernment for them the next few years are a worry.

Some of them work for companies that are Europe wide. Until Brexit that was not a problem. The future is uncertain now. And these arent well of middle class people.

As my local Black British friends remind me the party that supports Brexit is the party that has been being deporting Black British people. Why in my area Brixton/ Loughborough Juntion the large Black British working class voted Remain.

Thiis is all a joke for some but not for a lot of people I know and work with.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 16, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not in the EU, how on earth do people manage to get in? Last time I went I had to fill out a form on the plane and stand in a queue for literally six minutes. Ball ache extrodinaire. Fucking Farage’s fault.



6 mins?  Fucks sake - that’s barbaric, cancel Brexit NOW!


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 16, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Being in London ,where in my day to day work a lot of the people I deal with are from other EU countries, the blase attitude seen in posts here that nothing is decided yet , it will be alright in the end and so stop making a fuss is not reflected in what I hear from my EU friends.
> 
> Given that this country has a particularly obnoxious right wing Tory govenernment for them the next few years are a worry.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. I thought the thread was about someone delayed at customs. Apologies.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 16, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> I'm sorry. I thought the thread was about someone delayed at customs. Apologies.



I know it's hilarious.


----------



## T & P (Feb 16, 2020)

editor said:


> Pretty sure there'll be plenty more actual people who think just like this when they find they can't swish through the EU lane on their way to Benidorm.


There were such instances right after the referendum vote three years ago. One example I half remember was of a farmers association in either Cornwall or Wales- either way a massively pro-Brexit area- issuing a statement not 48 hours after the vote voicing concerns about the EU subsidies they’d been enjoying for decades and seeking reassurances they’d still receive them.

Many Brexiteers in the media and government also had the cheek to constantly paint the EU as arrogant and hostile because they weren’t willing to allow the UK to continue most of the EU membership perks after we leave. Because why shouldn’t you expect to still receive all your Sky channels simply because you’ve cancelled your subscription?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 16, 2020)

T & P said:


> One example I half remember was of a farmers association in either Cornwall or Wales- either way a massively pro-Brexit area- issuing a statement not 48 hours after the vote voicing concerns about the EU subsidies they’d been enjoying for decades and seeking reassurances they’d still receive them.



I don't really see why this is cited as irrational or silly. The UK is not a net beneficiary of EU funding, it contributes more than is distributed back. So eg CAP agricultural subsidies are in effect HMT > EU > farmer. Seeking reassurances that post middle man being removed there would still be a distribution of funding from A to C seems fairly sensible from the point of view of farmers really. More questionable would perhaps be the markets they buy from and sell to.


----------



## keybored (Feb 16, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Those laughing the most will probably have Russian accents to their laughs.


яeported for xenophobia.


----------



## andysays (Feb 16, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I go abroad once every couple of years, I can't say additional paperwork for touring bands was uppermost in my mind when faced with the leave or remain option.


And it's that sort of selfish disregard of the massive damage Brexit will do which has got us into this sorry situation.

I hope you're suitably ashamed of yourself now, young man.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 16, 2020)

I think they will fuck it up. Even on their own terms. They are going to fuck the economy at some point (I reckon). What they are talking about is impossible. It's demented. I don't know how businesses aren't panicking. Trade, warehousing, transport, distrubution. That's all going to be sorted is it? And if not, what happens then?

They seem like they have got their heads in the clouds; basking in a wave of right-wing populism, in the guts of foreign billionaire hobbyists who are showing off and in the grip of self-delusion. Once the stock-markets get spooked it's a snowballing effect. And that's assuming that some overseas interests are not looking to actively TRY and make things go as badly as possible for the British state. 

Sections of the economy could (likely will under this lot) be wiped out. Then there are the foreseen, and also unknowable unforeseen changes in world currents. We don't actually produce or make much, so lets fuck with trade? The knock on effects could last generations. For what? 

A bit of a Jeremiad; I don't know what will happen, and others can use it as they like. But I look at the shower in charge and can't help but fear the worst.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

Really encouraging start.  









						Brexit: Britain and EU 'will rip each other apart' in trade talks
					

French foreign minister says it will be hard for UK to strike deal by end of year given differences




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> Really encouraging start.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is there something in there about queues?


----------



## andysays (Feb 17, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> Is there something in there about queues?


It isn't mentioned in the article,  but I've heard that as a conciliatory measure the EU will offer to allow Remain voters to use a special express gate just for them, while all Leave voters will have to stand in the rain for a minimum of six hours while being poked with cattle prods on the way to Benidorm like the thick racist scum they are.


----------



## Big Bertha (Feb 17, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> Is there something in there about queues?


Couldn’t see anything , mainly about fishing I think


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 17, 2020)

As soon as is feasibly possible I'm going to be getting an EU passport. The absolute shambles that is Brexshit and all the associated racism and bigotry it has galvanized has made me embarrassed to use my UK one.

That aside, I do feel the need to stress this: these queues are because the UK isn't in Schengen and all passports must be properly inspected and not just briefly glanced at and waved through since 2017. It's the same deal for people flying from Ireland, same too for Bulgaria, Romania, Cyprus, Croatia. Passport checks upon entry and exit are going to be a thing for the foreseeable, as long as the flight originates from outside Schengen.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 17, 2020)

Bit baffled why you'd be embarrassed about something you haven't been or done tbh

What's an EU passport and how can you get one if the UK is no longer in the EU?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 17, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Bit baffled why you'd be embarrassed about something you haven't been or done tbh
> 
> What's an EU passport and how can you get one if the UK is no longer in the EU?



Because I don't particularly wish to be associated by default with a government beset on making this country a global laughing stock, and implementing openly hostile and racist deportations of black people and be a card carrying member with a little blue passport if I don't have to.

Dual citizenship with an EU _member country _can be obtained through a variety of means, e.g. residence, spouse citizenship, parentage... it depends on the country.


----------



## alex_ (Feb 17, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Bit baffled why you'd be embarrassed about something you haven't been or done tbh
> 
> What's an EU passport and how can you get one if the UK is no longer in the EU?



Irish ancestors, paying the Maltese 150k, marrying someone with on. The list goes on.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> Because I don't particularly wish to be associated by default with a government beset on making this country a global laughing stock, and implementing openly hostile and racist deportations of black people and be a card carrying member with a little blue passport if I don't have to.


You'd rather be associated with a multi-state body that does all the above much but more effectively and aggressively? And not by default, but by choice?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 17, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> You'd rather be associated with a multi-state body that does all the above much but more effectively aggressively? And not by default, but by choice?



Yes, without the blue passports.

Because everything is that black and white.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2020)

It is in this case yes. The EU is doing all that you say you don't want to be associated with. And that you're making a choice to be associated with it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 17, 2020)

On ebay you can get passport covers in a range of colours that say citizen of the world, job done


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 17, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> It is in this case yes. The EU is doing all that you say you don't want to be associated with. And you're making a choice to be associated with it.



Then I guess must be just like all those other thousands of British applying for Irish citizenship and so on, evil wronguns all of em.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2020)

Thats the thing about Johhny Foreigner , as soon as they see someone with 'an EU passport' they'll think you are one of them and not really from the UK


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> Then I guess must be just like all those other thousands of British applying for Irish citizenship and so on, evil wronguns all of em.


By _your _logic then yes - it's _you _effectively saying exactly that. It's there from your first utterly black and white post.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 17, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Thats the thing about Johhny Foreigner , as soon as they see someone with 'an EU passport' they'll think you are one of them and not really from the UK



Works better if you also wear a rollneck


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Works better if you also wear a rollneck


and have a gauloise in your mouth


----------



## philosophical (Feb 17, 2020)

When I first applied to go to China over 30 years ago a visa for a British passport holder was £40, but for an Irish passport holder it was £4. I immediately applied for and got my Irish passport (mother from County Cork) and have never used a British passport since.
Now intend going through the rigmarole of registering the birth of my son with the Irish authorities as a precursor to him getting his Irish passport. He was born in Lewisham Hospital.
I have a brother and other family in County Clare and we have been there very often over the last 30 years. I was born in Kent, but would be too ashamed to revive my British passport, as it turns out getting an Irish passport all those years ago was a very good decision.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 17, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> By _your _logic then yes - it's _you _effectively saying exactly that. It's there from your first utterly black and white post.



Well I shall certainly remember to hang my head in shame when I decide to work, live or retire in an EU country one day.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> Well I shall certainly remember to hang my head in shame when I decide to work, live or retire in an EU country one day.


It's hard to tell through your prickly defensiveness, but you are aware of the EU's record on the stuff that you say you don't want to be associated with right?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2020)

philosophical said:


> When I first applied to go to China over 30 years ago a visa for a British passport holder was £40, but for an Irish passport holder it was £4. I immediately applied for and got my Irish passport (mother from County Cork) and have never used a British passport since.
> Now intend going through the rigmarole of registering the birth of my son with the Irish authorities as a precursor to him getting his Irish passport. He was born in Lewisham Hospital.
> I have a brother and other family in County Clare and we have been there very often over the last 30 years. I was born in Kent, but would be too ashamed to revive my British passport, as it turns out getting an Irish passport all those years ago was a very good decision.


Seems a lot of kerfuffle just to try and avoid a potential queue


----------



## philosophical (Feb 17, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Seems a lot of kerfuffle just to try and avoid a potential queue


You are wrong in your reasoning.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> Well I shall certainly remember to hang my head in shame when I decide to work, live or retire in an EU country one day.


Perhaps as a fitting recognition of your heroic gesture the EU could set up a seperate border control queue  for those who hang their heads in shame.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You are wrong in your reasoning.


Come on be honest you are trying to avoid a queue. Seen it before, any excuse.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 17, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> Well I shall certainly remember to hang my head in shame when I decide to work, live or retire in an EU country one day.


So it's about how Brexit will affect your chances of easily doing those things, then?


----------



## philosophical (Feb 17, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Come on be honest you are trying to avoid a queue. Seen it before, any excuse.


You are wrong in your reasoning.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> On ebay you can get passport covers in a range of colours that say citizen of the world, job done


The bastards make you take the cover off at passport control though. Busted.


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 17, 2020)

plus if you on a flight to benidorm 


its going to be hard to claim your not from england


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 17, 2020)

Getting an EU passport if you can is probably a good idea. Accumulating passports generally is probably quite good from an individual point of view. But that's because of the utility they offer, rather than because of some identity bollocks (pun wasn't intended)


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 17, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> It's hard to tell through your prickly defensiveness, but you are aware of the EU's record on the stuff that you say you don't want to be associated with right?



Yes. And in a world of contradictions, I shall probably still endeavor to get a passport from an EU state.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2020)

I warn all you irishoids, once these pushy lib-dem new citizens get their passports they will be gunning for non-residential voting rights next. The _new imperialism._


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> Yes. And in a world of contradictions, I shall probably still endeavor to get a passport from an EU state.


Right, it's just that your first post argued that to hold a document like a UK passport puts you in a position of complicity with those things that you're justifiably outraged at - a black and white position if you like. But your course of action in response is to put yourself into a position of complicity again, but this time with a much more damaging body and one that has been heavily racialised and say _well there's contradictions - it's not black and white. _Those contradictions must work at the UK level too then, knocking your first post back a bit.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 17, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> Because I don't particularly wish to be associated by default with a government beset on making this country a global laughing stock, and implementing openly hostile and racist deportations of black people and be a card carrying member with a little blue passport if I don't have to.
> 
> Dual citizenship with an EU _member country _can be obtained through a variety of means, e.g. residence, spouse citizenship, parentage... it depends on the country.



Use one of these covers to firmly signal to everyone that you’re not far right gammon scum 



Spoiler: warning: woke af












						Remainer Passport Holder - PRE ORDER
					

Show you are a remainer across the world with this fantastic passport holder * CURRENTLY ON PRE-ORDER, ALL ORDERS WILL BE SHIPPED WHEN STOCK ARRIVES (ROUGHLY W/C 16th March - W/C 23rd March)




					tneshop.co.uk


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 17, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> I warn all you irishoids, once these pushy lib-dem new citizens get their passports they will be gunning for non-residential voting rights next. The _new imperialism._



they been promising an refrendom on that for about 7 years already..

still think even the add brit's would not out way the daispora voter if we went down that line


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 17, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Use one of these covers to firmly signal to everyone that you’re not far right gammon scum
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It has been a tough day for you, getting up early to go to your fake meeting of delivery drivers, and then back to the grind of your far right nonsense.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 17, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Right, it's just that your first post argued that to hold a document like a UK passport puts you in a position of complicity with those things that you're justifiably outraged at - a black and white position if you like. But your course of action in response is to put yourself into a position of complicity again, but this time with a much more damaging body and one that has been heavily racialised and say _well there's contradictions - it's not black and white. _Those contradictions must work at the UK level too then, knocking your first post back a bit.



Alright assuming the sole reason for getting a second EU passport is my outrage at the current UK government and that aligning by default with an EU country somewhat negates that, then sure. But that's neither what I'm saying, nor the reason for doing it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 17, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> I warn all you irishoids, once these pushy lib-dem new citizens get their passports they will be gunning for non-residential voting rights next. The _new imperialism._


When I use my non-residential voting rights, I am going to write "from hell's heart I stab at thee" next to the spunking cock.

(seriously though, they could at least give us a seat in the Seanad).


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> It has been a tough day for you, getting up early to go to your fake meeting of delivery drivers, and then back to the grind of your far right nonsense.


What is this 'fake' thing you've got going on with that poster?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 17, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> "this is what you voted for" in a yes/no on whether to be in a free trade bloc


How's Lexit coming along then?.


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 17, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> What is this 'fake' thing you've got going on with that poster?



He isn't a delivery driver and he goes on about how he is all the time. Presumably as a front for his far right propaganda.

Similar in credibility to his claim he isn't a racist because one of his children has a non-white skinned grandparent. Shame Marty1 is such a racist.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> He isn't a delivery driver and he goes on about how he is all the time. Presumably as a front for his far right propaganda.
> 
> Similar in credibility to his claim he isn't a racist because one of his children has a non-white skinned grandparent. Shame Marty1 is such a racist.


Why would he go on about being a delivery driver if he's not a delivery driver?


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 17, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Why would he go on about being a delivery driver if he's not a delivery driver?



Who knows? Why do lots of people lie on the internet?

To further his racist agenda probably.


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 17, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> When I use my non-residential voting rights, I am going to write "from hell's heart I stab at thee" next to the spunking cock.
> 
> (seriously though, they could at least give us a seat in the Seanad).



tbf if it can in about a million vote from the north side of boarder would be coming down with simular sentiment


----------



## NoXion (Feb 17, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Who knows? Why do lots of people lie on the internet?
> 
> To further his racist agenda probably.



How? Are we supposed to give his posts extra weight on account of his occupation? Because I don't do that, and I don't think anyone else here does. Kind of smacks of the idea that working class people can't be right-wing shitheads, when clearly they can.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 17, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> How's Lexit coming along then?.



Well we're leaving the EU. Oh and EU is talking about 'being closer' to ordinary people in response. So alright really.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 17, 2020)

Not that I travel now but I'd have loved Irish or Dutch dual nationality. Not for European reasons but I like those two countries and am not particularly keen on England's history or politics.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> To further his racist agenda probably.


How does pretending to be a delivery driver do that?


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 17, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> How does pretending to be a delivery driver do that?



When people are generating propaganda they often claim fake experiences to back them up, whether it works or not, who knows? It doesn't stop them trying though.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> When people are generating propaganda they often claim fake experiences to back them up, whether it works or not, who knows? It doesn't stop them trying though.


Ok, but why a delivery driver? What do you reckon his game plan could be here?


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 17, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> It's hard to tell through your prickly defensiveness, but you are aware of the EU's record on the stuff that you say you don't want to be associated with right?


If the EU did not exist do you think the situation in the Med would be any different, that countries like Italy or Greece would welcome these migrants with open arms? 
Do you believe either the UK's or anyone else's will change now that we have left?


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> If the EU did not exist do you think the situation in the Med would be any different, that countries like Italy or Greece would welcome these migrants with open arms?
> Do you believe either the UK's or anyone else's will change now that we have left?


I'm not sure how you managed that but that's not my post you've quoted. 

Whn you say "the situation in the Med", what do you mean? Do you think it's been handled well by the EU?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> If the EU did not exist do you think the situation in the Med would be any different, that countries like Italy or Greece would welcome these migrants with open arms?
> Do you believe either the UK's or anyone else's will change now that we have left?



Is that of any relevance to the point i was making though? I don't think so. The EU has certainly made those arrangements more effective, more far reaching, more brutal and mercenary than would be possible otherwise though. One of the wondrous benefits of internationalism right there.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 17, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> I'm not sure how you managed that but that's not my post you've quoted.
> 
> Whn you say "the situation in the Med", what do you mean? Do you think it's been handled well by the EU?


Stupidity on my part (and an android phone) I was trying to reply to butchersapron
Sorry about that


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 17, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Ok, but why a delivery driver? What do you reckon his game plan could be here?



Maybe they know one, or maybe read an article about the life of a delivery driver. In general when lying its useful to keep it simple so you can't be caught out.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 17, 2020)

NoXion said:


> How? Are we supposed to give his posts extra weight on account of his occupation? Because I don't do that, and I don't think anyone else here does. Kind of smacks of the idea that working class people can't be right-wing shitheads, when clearly they can.



Oddly enough BIG's big idea is that w/c people are simply racist on the whole - which makes this even odder. In his world tube and train drivers in the RMT are racist but delivery drivers in no union (and certainly not in the most left-wing union in the country as the previous are) can't be.


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 17, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Oddly enough BIG's big idea is that w/c people are simply racist on the whole - which makes this even odder. In his world tube and train drivers in the RMT are racist but delivery drivers in no union (and certainly not in the most left-wing union in the country as the previous are) can't be.



I have met loads of racist tube and train drivers, that you haven't probably puts you in a little bubble. How else is it that the UK population is very racist but that train and tube drivers are exempt? Is it their self-interest in joining their union that protects them from holding racist views.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat???????????


----------



## gosub (Feb 17, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> I warn all you irishoids, once these pushy lib-dem new citizens get their passports they will be gunning for non-residential voting rights next. The _new imperialism._



Just hit them with a tax bill like the Yanks do


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> I have met loads of racist tube and train drivers, that you haven't probably puts you in a little bubble. How else is it that the UK population is very racist but that train and tube drivers are exempt? Is it their self-interest in joining their union that protects them from holding racist views.


Lying horrible cunt.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> Is there something in there about queues?


Why don't you try reading it instead of making a pointless twatty comment?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2020)

Nothing like a spirited Monday morning


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 17, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Well we're leaving the EU. Oh and EU is talking about 'being closer' to ordinary people in response. So alright really.


And the figurehead of brexit has a big Tory majority and is hiring eugenicists, great stuff.


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 17, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Lying horrible cunt.



Lying about the racist tube drivers? Are they exempt from societal problems?

I heard that you weren't that pleasant either so back to you.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 17, 2020)

'Being British' is nothing to be either ashamed or proud of, it's a simple fact. If you've a problem with the government, racism and the rest, do something about it. Changing your passport as a protest is the absence of doing something.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

Another Brexit success story.



> A 95-year-old Italian man who has been in the UK for 68 years has been asked to prove he is resident in the country by the Home Office in order to remain after Brexit, despite receiving the state pension for the past 32 years.
> 
> Antonio Finelli came to the country in 1952 when he answered an appeal for immigrant labour as part of the reconstruction effort after the second world war ended.
> 
> He was welcomed with one week’s advance wages and a sandwich when he arrived at Folkestone harbour, but almost 70 years later says he has been forced to supply 80 pages of bank statements to prove his right to stay in the UK.











						Italian man, 95, resident in UK for 68 years, told to prove it
					

Antonio Finelli, a UK state pension recipient for 32 years, was asked for proof when he applied to stay post-Brexit




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 17, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> And the figurehead of brexit has a big Tory majority and is hiring eugenicists, great stuff.



Yes was great before the referendum when we had that govt that wasn't tory and wasn't cutting fuck out of everything in an ideological frenzy, miss those days


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 17, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Ok, but why a delivery driver? What do you reckon his game plan could be here?



Ive had to take a peek through the ignore function of that idiots conspiracy theory about me - wtaf


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Lying about the racist tube drivers? Are they exempt from societal problems?
> 
> I heard that you weren't that pleasant either so back to you.


What did you hear? Spell it out.


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 17, 2020)

TopCat said:


> What did you hear? Spell it out.



Go fuck yourself.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Go fuck yourself.


You heard something you said? What was it?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2020)

This thread smacks of being provoked by a continental lager headache.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

Everyone's a winner with Brexit!



> Consumers face higher costs and reduced availability on the four-fifths of food imports that come from the EU, according to the British retail industry body as it renewed its call for Britain to strike a deal with the bloc which cuts red tape and border friction. Cabinet minister Michael Gove last month raised concerns among manufacturers and retailers, warning that a new EU trade relationship would involve increased costs and extra bureaucracy at borders. He admitted that a new “smart” border to cut trade friction would not be ready until 2025.





> The British Retail Consortium said consumers will face higher costs and fewer goods without efforts to reduce the burden at borders. Almost 80 per cent of food that British retailers import comes from the EU, mostly through the ports of Dover and Folkestone, which handle almost 7,000 lorries every day.





> The BRC has also accepted that so-called “frictionless trade” is not possible given the British government’s aim of diverging from EU rules and regulations, but said that the impact would be mitigated by efforts to reduce paperwork around value added tax, export health certificates and other customs and excise procedures. It is also calling for a zero tariff trade deal. Helen Dickinson, chief executive of the BRC, said: “The issue is simple — higher tariffs and extensive checks will harm consumers, retailers, and the UK economy.”







__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2020)

At least the planes are still flying


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> Why don't you try reading it instead of making a pointless twatty comment?


You're supposed to give a clue as to the relevance of the link, and what's at the other end of it.



> Really encouraging start.


Isn't much of a clue.

4 *Content-free posts are not permitted.* Posts containing nothing more than links to websites or video files are not permitted. Please explain the nature and relevance of the linked content as a courtesy to users.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> You're supposed to give a clue as to the relevance of the link, and what's at the other end of it.
> 
> 
> Isn't much of a clue.
> ...


It was an on-topic link, with included description: "_Brexit: Britain and EU 'will rip each other apart' in trade talks,_"  followed by a comment from the French foreign minister, preceded by my own comment relating to that content.  So go fuck yourself, you trolling prick.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

And here come the memes!



Meanwhile: 



> There has been a 10% drop in the number of skilled workers from overseas applying to work in private companies since the Brexit vote, a new report suggests. Over 4,000 fewer applications for Skilled Worker Visas were made by non-EU workers seeking to work in the private sector in 2018-19.











						Large drop in skilled workers applying to work in UK since Brexit vote
					

There has been a 10% drop in overseas skilled workers applying to work in the private sector, a study suggests.




					metro.co.uk


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> And here come the memes!
> 
> View attachment 198861
> 
> ...


Whilst I personally am a supporter of free movement there is a potential silver lining in this in that companies might consider spending money on training something that has gone out of fashion these days


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Whilst I personally am a supporter of free movement there is a potential silver lining in this in that companies might consider spending money on training something that has gone out of fashion these days


Or import workers from further afield. All the commonwealth countries for starters.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Whilst I personally am a supporter of free movement there is a potential silver lining in this in that companies might consider spending money on training something that has gone out of fashion these days


I admire and salute your optimistic outlook on this matter.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Or import workers from further afield. All the commonwealth countries for starters.


Exactly; they'll do whatever maximises returns to their shareholders.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 17, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Or import workers from further afield. All the commonwealth countries for starters.


That is going on now if I look over the top of the desk in front of me I can see a dozen Indian engineers here on 2 year contracts


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> It was an on-topic link, with included description: "_Brexit: Britain and EU 'will rip each other apart' in trade talks,_"  followed by a comment from the French foreign minister, preceded by my own comment relating to that content.  So go fuck yourself, you trolling prick.
> 
> View attachment 198860


Remoaner anger froths over...


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Exactly; they'll do whatever maximises returns to their shareholders.


Certainly whatever's necessary to keep businesses running. Correctly so.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> That is going on now if I look over the top of the desk in front of me I can see a dozen Indian engineers here on 2 year contracts


Same here but that's a function of where the skills are rather than anything to do with the EU. I was trying to hire Front End devs last year and it was almost impossible to find perm staff from anywhere_ but_ India.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Remoaner anger froths over...


Cool comment bro.'


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> And here come the memes!
> 
> View attachment 198861
> 
> ...


Companies forced to train UK workers in order to keep profits up.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 17, 2020)

Companies have been denied a source of precarious labour. How terrible.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Certainly whatever's necessary to keep businesses running. Correctly so.


Decisions taken by the financialised corporations to maximise dividend return are not necessarily necessary for survival as a going concern.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Decisions taken by the financialised corporations to maximise dividend return are not necessarily necessary for survival as a going concern.


Oh well.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2020)




----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Companies forced to train UK workers in order to keep profits up.


It's OK. Brexit will make everything OK again. Well, apart from the well documented sharp rise in racism and xenophobia. And the predicted price rises. And the predicted shortages. But think of all that much needed money that's going to be pumping into the NHS now, just like they promised. Oh no, wait.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 17, 2020)

God its like looking at facebook


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> God its like looking at facebook


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> It's OK. Brexit will make everything OK again. Well, apart from the well documented sharp rise in racism and xenophobia. And the predicted price rises. And the predicted shortages. But think of all that much needed money that's going to be pumping into the NHS now, just like they promised. Oh no, wait.


Don't forget the predicted increase in dogging, and hordes of ex pats from Spain clogging up our NHS.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

This must be the worst thread currently on the boards for hysterical speculation presented as news items


----------



## andysays (Feb 17, 2020)

So is this just the most recent "shit posting anything bad about Brexit" thread now


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

andysays said:


> So is this just the most recent "shit posting anything bad about Brexit" thread now


Give me some good news about Brexit, then.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2020)

andysays said:


> So is this just the most recent "shit posting anything bad about Brexit" thread now


And lets not forget the collapse of Jamie Olivers restuarant chain 'due to Brexit' "diners stopped eating out due to uncertainty triggered by the 2016 EU referendum result."


----------



## andysays (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> Give me some good news about Brexit, then.


I'm surprised at you, on this thread that would clearly be off-topic


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> Give me some good news about Brexit, then.


Is likely to lead to a United Ireland.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> Give me some good news about Brexit, then.


.



The39thStep said:


> And lets not forget *the collapse of Jamie Olivers restuarant chain 'due to Brexit'* "diners stopped eating out due to uncertainty triggered by the 2016 EU referendum result."


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 17, 2020)

It's like despite the literally thousands of pages on this on these very boards some people are three years back and just yelling "RACISTS!" over and over


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

More like a pissed-up tramp on a park bench shouting random shit "Raaa, look at this Brexit shit!", "Raaaa, some French bloke says ..... blaaaa", "Raaaa, what a load of shit .... raaaaa" ....


----------



## Wilf (Feb 17, 2020)

S☼I said:


> It's like despite the literally thousands of pages on this on these very boards some people are three years back and just yelling "RACISTS!" over and over


_'Gammony-racist, gammony-racist. No come backs!,_


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2020)

Quite divisive, Brexit.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 17, 2020)

Didn't the 1920s tabloids have headlines that a Labour Government would 'nationalise women' or something? That's proper peak hysteria, but we are getting there.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

S☼I said:


> It's like despite the literally thousands of pages on this on these very boards some people are three years back and just yelling "RACISTS!" over and over


Who has yelled 'RACIST'?!


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> .


Now that is some good news, but I was hoping fr something a bit more recent. I need some of those flag waving Brexit feelgood vibes.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 17, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Quite divisive, Brexit.


Really? Can't say I've got that impression myself


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 17, 2020)

andysays said:


> So is this just the most recent "shit posting anything bad about Brexit" thread now



He’ll be digging up some article claiming that Brexit is banning bendy bananas soon...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> Cool comment bro.'




Are you twelve?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 17, 2020)

andysays said:


> So is this just the most recent "shit posting anything bad about Brexit" thread now



Brexit ate editor’s hamster.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Are you twelve?


I was just sinking to the infantile level of the 'remoaner' comment. So sorry if it offended you.


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Brexit ate editor’s hamster.


Ah, the voice of maturity.   


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> He’ll be digging up some article claiming that Brexit is banning bendy bananas soon...


You're really quite desperate for a reaction, aren't you? Three personal digs in a row. How about you get back on topic and keep the shitty beef to yourself?


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2020)

Dear oh dear.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> I was just sinking to the infantile level of the 'remoaner' comment. So sorry if it offended you.
> Ah, the voice of maturity.



There are many bad aspects to Brexit, try posting some. Everything you have posted on this thread from your OP to now is just fucking embarrassing, like a small child shouting whahhhhhhh.

But to keep attacking Brexit from a myopic stance that as a drummer in a middling band you may have to fill out a form at some point ain’t gonna change the minds of people who were fucked over by Cameron/Osprick/EU’s killer austerity etc. You keep going on about how things are going to get worse, if you lost your job in 2009 and have spent the next decade getting sanctioned for bullshit reasons, how the fuck will Brexit make things worse? Apart from carnets for touring bands, of course.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2020)

If the left hand don’t get you the right hand will


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> Now that is some good news, but I was hoping fr something a bit more recent. I need some of those flag waving Brexit feelgood vibes.


Pounds gone up


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> as a drummer in a middling band .... carnets for touring bands, of course.


And there you again.  All personal. You fucking coward.

I've clearly brought up more than the impact of Brexit on 'touring middling bands,' but you'll just ignore all that so you keep up your pathetic personal beef.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 17, 2020)

editor said:


> And there you again.  All personal. *You fucking coward.*
> 
> I've clearly brought up more than the impact of Brexit on touring middling bands.



Bit personal.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 17, 2020)

S☼I said:


> It's like despite the literally thousands of pages on this on these very boards some people are three years back and just yelling "RACISTS!" over and over



It's like despite the literally thousands of pages on this on these very boards some people are three years back and just yelling "people are just yelling RACISTS! over and over" over and over.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 17, 2020)

I'll _it's like despite the literally thousands of pages on this on these very boards some people are three years back and just yelling "people are just yelling RACISTS! over and over" over and over_ YOU in a minute


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 17, 2020)

is shitty beef part of the same trade deal as chlorinated chicken?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 17, 2020)

Not specifically beef I don't think but ratshit in wheat and popcorn yes:









						9 Disgusting Things That the FDA Allows in Your Food
					

The FDA is concerned with food safety, but not necessarily grossness. Here are the acceptable levels of bugs, hairs, poop and other things found in certain foods.




					www.livescience.com
				






> Consider the defect "mammalian excreta" a rather polite way for the FDA to tell you there's rodent poop in your food. The icky defect comes up 15 times in the FDA's handbook.


----------



## gosub (Feb 17, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> He’ll be digging up some article claiming that Brexit is banning bendy bananas soon...


As it is WTO thing won't make a difference.  I did think Brexit would lead to a better understanding  of the world it hasn't just two groups of bigots taking over the floor. I knew about the racists but it's brought home the scratch every liberal..


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2020)

fucking hell.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 18, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> When people are generating propaganda they often claim fake experiences to back them up, whether it works or not, who knows? It doesn't stop them trying though.



You might have a point if he'd ever used his delivery driver work to say racist things. He's a right-winger but doesn't use his work to back it up.



Spymaster said:


> Or import workers from further afield. All the commonwealth countries for starters.



Not very likely with the current govt. If they did, they'd then send them back for spurious reasons.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2020)

TopCat said:


> fucking hell.


You have no idea how many twisted justifications dismissing various sections right to an opinion I have sat through in the last couple of years


----------



## TopCat (Feb 18, 2020)

gosub said:


> You have no idea how many twisted justifications dismissing various sections right to an opinion I have sat through in the last couple of years


i wasn't having a pop at you.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 18, 2020)

gosub said:


> You have no idea how many twisted justifications dismissing various sections right to an opinion I have sat through in the last couple of years


I think that's true, it *is *true. Just don't think another 'look at the thickos' thread does much to get beyond it.


----------



## Streathamite (Feb 18, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Some borders take ages to cross, others are quicker. First time I went to India the prick stared at my visa stamped in my passport for a full five minutes. What was he looking at? Three hundred passengers on my flight, three hundred on the Monarch that landed five minutes later, two divs who stared at ink in a page for five minutes each passenger.
> 
> Other countries just process you.
> 
> Best guess come the end of the transition period is that it will be exactly the same as now, the sole difference being that you will need a minimum of six months left on your passport. The EU is introducing an ESTA style system, this is for everyone outside of the Schengen zone to comply with, but just watch dickeads like the OP get the vapours over it and pretend it is linked...





B.I.G said:


> Who knows? Why do lots of people lie on the internet?
> 
> To further his racist agenda probably.


I know Marty 21 quite well. He is most definitely not a racist


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2020)

Wrong Marty


----------



## Streathamite (Feb 18, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> I have met loads of racist tube and train drivers, that you haven't probably puts you in a little bubble. How else is it that the UK population is very racist but that train and tube drivers are exempt? Is it their self-interest in joining their union that protects them from holding racist views.


Sorry, but whaaat?😮😮?


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 18, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's like despite the literally thousands of pages on this on these very boards some people are three years back and just yelling "people are just yelling RACISTS! over and over" over and over.



It's all rather toxic, this Brexit lark.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Feb 18, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Not specifically beef I don't think but ratshit in wheat and popcorn yes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I wish I hadn't read that.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 18, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Not specifically beef I don't think but ratshit in wheat and popcorn yes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Apparently EU rats don't shit?


----------



## scifisam (Feb 18, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> It's all rather toxic, this Brexit lark.



On both sides. Obvs it doesn't exist in isolation but it's shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> This must be the worst thread currently on the boards for hysterical speculation presented as news items


No, that's the terf thread


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2020)

editor said:


> In
> Give me some good news about Brexit, then.


Discussing it has passed the time at work for more than four years now


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 18, 2020)

scifisam said:


> On both sides. Obvs it doesn't exist in isolation but it's shit.



For sure. Some remainers think all leavers are thick racists and some leavers think all remainers are moany thick liberals.

Perhaps we could refrain from using the emotive and combative "r" words...


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 18, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> I know Marty 21 quite well. He is most definitely not a racist



Wrong poster. Although you have to ask why Marty1 chose his name.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Not very likely with the current govt. If they did, they'd then send them back for spurious reasons.


Nah. This government has never had a problem with documented aliens who make UK businesses money. This I think is one of the potential benefits of the exit. I've never been entirely comfortable with the free movement and the right to work anywhere in the bloc based on membership of it. People from Poland should have no greater right to work here than people from India. Priority should be given to immigrants from the Commonwealth, not the EU. We'll see what happens.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Wrong poster. Although you have to ask why Marty1 chose his name.


Oh shut up, you bellend.


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 18, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Oh shut up, you bellend.



You shut up. Enjoy defending your far right posters.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 18, 2020)

Jer-ry, Jer-ry, Jer-ry...

etc


----------



## scifisam (Feb 18, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Nah. This government has never had a problem with documented aliens who make UK businesses money. This I think is one of the potential benefits of the exit. I've never been entirely comfortable with the free movement and the right to work anywhere in the bloc based on membership of it. People from Poland should have no greater right to work here than people from India. Priority should be given to immigrants from the Commonwealth, not the EU. We'll see what happens.



That's worked out well for the Windrush people who used to make the UK money and are now being deported or finding themselves not eligible for pensions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Priority should be given to immigrants from the Commonwealth, not the EU. We'll see what happens.


perhaps you should look at what has happened





__





						Migration Statistics Quarterly Report - Office for National Statistics
					

Immigration to the UK and emigration from the UK, including net migration (the difference between immigration and emigration).



					www.ons.gov.uk


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2020)

scifisam said:


> That's worked out well for the Windrush people who used to make the UK money and are now being deported or finding themselves not eligible for pensions.


Windrush and this current deportation debacle, whilst jaw-dropping, aren't indicative of an inability to handle immigration correctly more broadly. Remember also that we won't have this government forever.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you should look at what has happened
> View attachment 198931
> 
> 
> ...


That's no more than you'd expect though is it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> I have met loads of racist tube and train drivers, that you haven't probably puts you in a little bubble. How else is it that the UK population is very racist but that train and tube drivers are exempt? Is it their self-interest in joining their union that protects them from holding racist views.


i have met lots of tube drivers, being fortunate enough to count several among my friends. i have neither encountered nor heard of a large number of racist tube drivers, my experience being quite the opposite, that many tube drivers have a proud record of anti-fascism.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 18, 2020)

I agree with misgivings about freedom of movement within europe at expense of people outside of the fortress, not sure why it should be based on commonwealth though. An ideal scenario would be based on need but given any govt is going to look at people as units of labour then its also a fantasy scenario


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> ... not sure why it should be based on commonwealth though.


Payback. Britain has benefitted from exploiting those nations in the past. Use this as an opportunity to demonstrate that in some small measure "Commonwealth" can work both ways. It's by no means easy when you start considering who exactly was exploited (were white Australians/South Africans/Canadians?) and a few countries like Pakistan may cause some debate. The fact is though there are more than enough people in those member states to fill any immigration needs the UK will have and immigrants from them they should now be _considered_ ahead of those from the EU. I'm not advocating free movement between them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Payback. Britain has benefitted from exploiting those nations in the past.


so the argentinians should be included in that, the sudanese, the egyptians. and how would you treat people from mozambique, a commonwealth country which was never a british colony?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 18, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Payback. Britain has benefitted from exploiting those nations in the past. Use this as an opportunity to demonstrate that in some small measure "Commonwealth" can work both ways. It's by no means easy when you start considering who exactly was exploited (were white Australians/South Africans?) and a few countries like Pakistan my cause some debate. The fact is though there are more than enough people in those member states to fill any immigration needs the UK will have and immigrants from them they should now be _considered_ ahead of those from the EU. I'm not advocating free movement between them.



Don't completely agree but fair enough. Certainly from a stance of greatest need commonwealth is a better fit than EU. Yeah I wasn't talking fom either, which would result in poor places becoming poorer, but a fairer way of determining migration based on human need not economic value


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> so the argentinians should be included in that, the sudanese, the egyptians. and how would you treat people from mozambique, a commonwealth country which was never a british colony?


As I said, it's not easy. There are loads of anomalies but the recognised 54 members of the Commonwealth of Nations is a good starting point.


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i have met lots of tube drivers, being fortunate enough to count several among my friends. i have neither encountered nor heard of a large number of racist tube drivers, my experience being quite the opposite, that many tube drivers have a proud record of anti-fascism.



Good for you. I’ve met the opposite as well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> a fairer way of determining migration based on human need not economic value


need? not desire?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 18, 2020)

Bear with me on this, but maybe tube drivers are no less or more likely to be racist or hold other chauvinistic or reactionary views than people who aren't tube drivers


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> need? not desire?



Yeah maybe need not the right word, although not sure desire is either. Somewhere between the two. Compelled maybe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah maybe need not the right word, although not sure desire is either. Somewhere between the two. Compelled maybe.


perhaps a simple wish to live somewhere. but then if you're going to prioritise people from 'the commonwealth' on the basis of some former shared experience of the british empire then please explain to me what you'd propose for mozambique.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps a simple wish to live somewhere. but then if you're going to prioritise people from 'the commonwealth' on the basis of some former shared experience of the british empire then please explain to me what you'd propose for mozambique.



Yeah. I dunno I don't disagree, what I'd obv really like to see is everybody having the right to live where they like, based on desire, without being compelled or economically coersed to migrate and leave family, friends, social networks (which would hinder mass migrations, because these don't happen just because people fancy a change of environment) but without a great levelling of the wealth gap and lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty that isn't going to happen. So while migration has to be limited I'd just like to see that based on the needs of the people compelled to migrate not the assumed benefits to receiving states. I dunno though, it's hard this stuff isn't it.

I'm not sold on the commonwealth thing


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> ... if you're going to prioritise people from 'the commonwealth' on the basis of some former shared experience of the british empire then please explain to me what you'd propose for mozambique.


Mozambique is unique in that respect but they're still on the list of 54.

There are many ways to confound the proposition but there will also be ones to make it work, at least in some kind of principle. I just think that it's a better starting point than 'everyone who's a member of the EU can live and work wherever they want within it'.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 18, 2020)

Letting some Commonwealth folk live in the UK; certainly cheaper than reparation.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 18, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Windrush and this current deportation debacle, whilst jaw-dropping, aren't indicative of an inability to handle immigration correctly more broadly. Remember also that we won't have this government forever.



I'd say that the way the government is acting now is pretty indicative of how they'll act in the future.

And we won't get a different type of government for quite a while.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah. I dunno I don't disagree, what I'd obv really like to see is everybody having the right to live where they like, based on desire, without being compelled or economically coersed to migrate and leave family, friends, social networks (which would hinder mass migrations, because these don't happen just because people fancy a change of environment) but without a great levelling of the wealth gap and lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty that isn't going to happen. So while migration has to be limited I'd just like to see that based on the needs of the people compelled to migrate not the assumed benefits to receiving states. I dunno though, it's hard this stuff isn't it.


Of course it's hard and your post demonstrates why. There are loads of different ideas about what a fair immigration policy is.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 18, 2020)

I'm a great fan of free movement within the EU and believe that it's loss will impoverish us greatly both economically and socially
I personally know several UK citizens who have taken full advantage of it to work across Europe as well has people coming here.
It would be great if we lived in a world where anyone could live anywhere in the world they wanted without it being driven by poverty, but such a world won't come about in the lifetimes of anyone posting on these boards


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I'd say that the way the government is acting now is pretty indicative of how they'll act in the future.


I disagree with that wrt future economic migration from outside the EU, and, unfair as it is, Windrush and deportations to Jamaica are pretty specific fuck-ups fundamentally based on not giving citizenship to people who should have been given it automatically. That's a completely different ball game to the issuing of work permits and residencies for overseas workers now.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 18, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> I disagree with that wrt economic migration from outside the EU, and, unfair as it is, Windrush and deportations to Jamaica are pretty specific fuck-ups fundamentally based on not giving citizenship to people who should have been given it automatically. That's a completely different ball game to the issuing of work permits and residencies for overseas workers now.



It really isn't, though - it's all connected. The current government are the ones who are overseeing the Windrush problems and deportations. It's insanely optimistic to think they'll be kinder to other people moving in from the commonwealth now.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 18, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Of course it's hard and your post demonstrates why. There are loads of different ideas about what a fair immigration policy is.



I don't agree with open borders - or rather I do but it is only viable in a world without economic disparity and poverty - but the one thing open borders types say which is bang on is that there is no such thing as a fair immigration policy. It will always be unfair, it will always prevent people exercising choice to live elsewhere, it will always separate families etc.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 18, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah. I dunno I don't disagree, what I'd obv really like to see is everybody having the right to live where they like, based on desire, without being compelled or economically coersed to migrate and leave family, friends, social networks (which would hinder mass migrations, because these don't happen just because people fancy a change of environment) but without a great levelling of the wealth gap and lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty that isn't going to happen. So while migration has to be limited I'd just like to see that based on the needs of the people compelled to migrate not the assumed benefits to receiving states. I dunno though, it's hard this stuff isn't it.
> 
> I'm not sold on the commonwealth thing



Its certainly complex. Something like  16% of Romania's work force has emmigrated for work in other EU countries causing a skill and labour crisis.  One of their Govt ministers a few years ago actually called for freedom of movement to be curbed.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2020)

[


Spymaster said:


> I disagree with that wrt future economic migration from outside the EU, and, unfair as it is, Windrush and deportations to Jamaica are pretty specific fuck-ups fundamentally based on not giving citizenship to people who should have been given it automatically. That's a completely different ball game to the issuing of work permits and residencies for overseas workers now.


It's indicative of the potential for callous disregard of anything approaching natural justice wrt immigrants and how they can be fucked over if they don't have cast-iron legal rights. That has implications for any immigrant, EU or not, and it shows up the naivety of anyone who might trust governments on this.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2020)

scifisam said:


> It really isn't, though - it's all connected. The current government are the ones who are overseeing the Windrush problems and deportations. It's insanely optimistic to think they'll be kinder to other people moving in from the commonwealth now.


I don't agree with that. The two issues are very seperate but it's not a question of "being kinder" to anyone. It's one of putting in place a working immigration policy. Now clearly the overwhelming view on these boards will be that that is impossible under a Tory government while others would argue that an open borders policy that some on the left would like to see, or anything approaching it, is economically and socially suicidal. As Proper Tidy said, it's not easy and no government has got it much better than others. But it is governments that are going to form them.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's indicative of the potential for callous disregard of anything approaching natural justice wrt immigrants and how they can be fucked over if they don't have cast-iron legal rights


Correct.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 18, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> I'm a great fan of free movement within the EU and believe that it's loss will impoverish us greatly both economically and socially
> I personally know several UK citizens who have taken full advantage of it to work across Europe as well has people coming here.
> It would be great if we lived in a world where anyone could live anywhere in the world they wanted without it being driven by poverty, but such a world won't come about in the lifetimes of anyone posting on these boards


However much of the EU immigration trends  to the UK has been driven precisely by those from impoverished countries.Firstly the  aftermath of the EU southern Europe ( Spanish, Italian, Portuguese) crisis from 2009 onwards and then by the expansion of the EU and the impoverished eastern european states. Mainly in long hours, low wages , precarious employment. UK emmigation to the UK is quantitiatively different. Most of this immigration is relatively short term and has in some cases reversed as the economy picks up in the workers home state ie Poland.From many UK employers point of view its been a running tap of cheap convenient  labour.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 18, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> However much of the EU immigration trends  to the UK has been driven precisely by those from impoverished countries.Firstly the  aftermath of the EU southern Europe ( Spanish, Italian, Portuguese) crisis from 2009 onwards and then by the expansion of the EU and the impoverished eastern european states. Mainly in long hours, low wages , precarious employment. UK emmigation to the UK is quantitiatively different. Most of this immigration is relatively short term and has in some cases reversed as the economy picks up in the workers home state ie Poland.From many UK employers point of view its been a running tap of cheap convenient  labour.


Indeed it has but for the immigrants themselves it has offered the opportunity to move in search of economic gains, to settle  down and build a new life in the country they moved too or return home having made their fortunes as it were. The important thing is that freedom of movement gives them a great deal of choice in the process, that isn't true of people on work visas who are subject to strict limitations on who they can work for.
The Indian engineers currently sitting 20ft from me are here because their employee signed a  contract to provide them.
They get no say in who they work for or what they do and after 2 years they get sent home whether they want to go or not.
On the other hand I know a Polish girl who came here to work in Starbucks,got bored with that and got a job as a gym instructor.
Somewhere along the line she got married to my son's best mate
Clearly some employers are exploiting FOM for their own ends but it's fundamentally no different than exploiting UK workers.
People brought here on work visas (which we will now see a LOT more of) have far fewer rights and are much easier to exploit.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Indeed it has but for the immigrants themselves it has offered the opportunity to move in search of economic gains, to settle  down and build a new life in the country they moved too or return home having made their fortunes as it were. The important thing is that freedom of movement gives them a great deal of choice in the process, that isn't true of people on work visas who are subject to strict limitations on who they can work for.
> The Indian engineers currently sitting 20ft from me are here because their employee signed a  contract to provide them.
> They get no say in who they work for or what they do and after 2 years they get sent home whether they want to go or not.
> On the other hand I know a Polish girl who came here to work in Starbucks,got bored with that and got a job as a gym instructor.
> ...


Well said. And we shouldn't overstate the idea that people are driven to come to the UK from Eastern Europe by desperation. It's more like people moving to London, say, from South Wales or Cornwall or Peterborough, or whereever else they feel their options are limited (economically or otherwise) and they want to get out, to go somewhere new.

As to the damage suffered by the places from which people are draining, that's a tricky one to quantify as it involves pluses and minuses. As we see now with Poland, people with money returning home or just sending the money home can help an economy. In the 1960s, Franco positively encouraged young people to leave Spain and find work somwhere where there was work so that they could send money back. Better in many respects for young Spaniards today to be able to fuck off to the UK to work rather than languish in Spain where there is no work. It's not purely better for exploitative employers seeking to cut wages. And of course if immigration puts downward pressure on wages for some sectors, well emigration puts an upward pressure on wages, too.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Windrush and this current deportation debacle, whilst jaw-dropping, aren't indicative of an inability to handle immigration correctly more broadly. Remember also that we won't have this government forever.


I think they are in part, the must be seen to do something about immigration we've had couldn't target EU nationals so meant all the more pressure on non EU.  And it has been seen to be doing something rather than being  effective- throwing out archives without digitization bad form though the family tree industry had a lot of data which they ignored.

While May was at the Home Office they cancelled the contract on a couple of King Airs that used to do Coastal Patrol (was a 2mil a year contract) she must have spent that on those cardboard cutouts they put in airport's. Just brought the King airs back recently due to the number of people risking their lives in one of worlds busiest shipping lanes


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well said. And we shouldn't overstate the idea that people are driven to come to the UK from Eastern Europe by desperation. It's more like people moving to London, say, from South Wales or Cornwall or Peterborough, or whereever else they feel their options are limited (economically or otherwise) and they want to get out, to go somewhere new.
> 
> As to the damage suffered by the places from which people are draining, that's a tricky one to quantify as it involves pluses and minuses. As we see now with Poland, people with money returning home or just sending the money home can help an economy. In the 1960s, Franco positively encouraged young people to leave Spain and find work somwhere where there was work so that they could send money back. Better in many respects for young Spaniards today to be able to fuck off to the UK to work rather than languish in Spain where there is no work. It's not purely better for exploitative employers seeking to cut wages. And of course if immigration puts downward pressure on wages for some sectors, well emigration puts an upward pressure on wages, too.



You're right that can't apply broad brush strokes to everybody - I have polish mates with decent jobs who could earn good money back in Poland but choose to remain here, they like their lives here - but clearly there is economic coersion at play with a large number of EU migrants. 

I've spent most of my life in a factory town, low wage low skill, and from very early 00s it's become home to EU migrant workers in various waves - first portuguese plus some spanish, then polish (lots) , then lithuanians, bulgarians, croats, romanians, then portuguese again, so on. 

Lots of positives of course - lots of portuguese caffs and a thriving portuguese community today firmly embedded, the polish added to an existing 2nd/3rd gen polish welsh thing as was a POW camp during war and many stayed after. But there was no denying how grim it must have been for most of these migrants - these weren't by and large people coming with tech skills to work in IT or whatever, they were coming to do unskilled low paid factory work through agencies, for a long time agencies were (and may still I dunno) exclusively recruiting overseas because they could pay min wage then deduct travel (minibus to factory and back for shifts) and accommodation and make off the margins. Lots of stuff came out about fifteen people sharing six beds in two ups two downs locally, the mirror used to be good at reporting it. I made mates with quite a lot of portuguese in first large cohort and a fair few poles in subsequent years, there was no way it was their desire to leave family and friends, often partners and kids, behind to live in Hightown flats and work 6-2 in pancrisp on the days when the minibus showed up, it was a shit existence and this was the norm. I know they hated it, I know they wanted to be back home. Mostly they are now, the ones I knew. Some people stay, build lives, find a route up the labour market ladder, of course. 

Anyway bit rambling but clearly when you have large quite dramatic mass migrations, like with polish followed by other 'eastern europeans', this isn't a sudden wave of desire to experience difference cultures. If it was they wouldn't have picked some shithole already on its arse. It was and remains economic coersion, and that is more exploitative than a UK person moving from south wales to london


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i have met lots of tube drivers, being fortunate enough to count several among my friends. i have neither encountered nor heard of a large number of racist tube drivers, my experience being quite the opposite, that many tube drivers have a proud record of anti-fascism.


Those must be the ones on the north lines. The ones on the south lines dress up like Casper the ghost at weekends. They're actually all plants from the deep South in America, where they're forcefully separated from their parents at an early age, and taught to speak proper English and complain about the weather, then, after ~20 years of training, they're shipped to England in containers of Reese's peanut butter cups, and they infiltrate and assimilate, before taking all the tube drivers' jobs. They all have second jobs, too, as delivery drivers for Amazon, so when you see an Amazon driver carrying a box, it most likely contains white sheets. It's a plan so cunning you could pin a tail on it and call it a fox.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 18, 2020)

Bit more on Portugal's present thinking in UK/Portugal  issues post Brexit which strangely enough is not in my Portuguese paper 








						Portugal considers subsidising UK tourists' post-Brexit healthcare
					

Country considers continuing cover offered by European health insurance card




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Feb 18, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Bear with me on this, but maybe tube drivers are no less or more likely to be racist or hold other chauvinistic or reactionary views than people who aren't tube drivers


Tube drivers are very organised with the vast majority in a radical trade union. I would assert they are, because of a wish to be in a union and the influence of the union on their viewpoint, to be much less racist than the average bloke. Certainly less than many musicians.


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Tube drivers are very organised with the vast majority in a radical trade union. I would assert they are, because of a wish to be in a union and the influence of the union on their viewpoint, to be much less racist than the average bloke. Certainly less than many musicians.


Sorry, where do musicians come into this, and what studies are you basing your remarkable claim on?


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 18, 2020)

Sadiq Khan is off to meet Guy Verhofstadt to sort all this kerfuffle over freedom of movement.









						Sadiq Khan urges EU to offer Britons 'associate citizenship'
					

Guy Verhofstadt’s idea would give continued freedom of movement to those who wanted it




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Sadiq Khan is off to meet Guy Verhofstadt to sort all this kerfuffle over freedom of movement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That hasn't got a hope in hell of getting off the ground.


----------



## Maltin (Feb 18, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Mozambique is unique in that respect but they're still on the list of 54.


What about Rwanda?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 18, 2020)

editor said:


> That hasn't got a hope in hell of getting off the ground.


Agreed but funnily enough the Spectator is backing it.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Agreed but funnily enough the Spectator is backing it.



“The offer would include continued freedom of movement and residence around the bloc for those who wished to retain such rights”. 

That’ll be the end of that then.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> I'm not very interested in combing through random twitter user's posts tbh. I was commenting on the Indie's rush to report the latest thing trending on twitter without due diligence, not volunteering to carry out the diligence myself.
> 
> It's a pisstake either way though, even if the account is genuine.



It's fucking bonkers.  Can you imagine the equivalent 30 years ago, The Sun Exclusive! Arthur down the Rose & Crown says there's too many immigrants!!!


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2020)

smokedout said:


> It's fucking bonkers.  Can you imagine the equivalent 30 years ago, The Sun Exclusive! Arthur down the Rose & Crown says there's too many immigrants!!!


That's what makes up much of the mainstream press now, with entire articles/features gleaned from an amusing photo/video/tweet, the 'controversial' utterances of some D list celeb, fake fallouts between celebs and PR-pumped made up stories about some bollocks or another.

It's the kind of stuff that in the past would just about merit a thread on a bulletin boards, but now becomes trending stories shared by millions. It's as depressing as fuck, but so long as the public have an insatiable appetite for it for this kind of crap, we'll keep on getting more of the same passed on as important news.


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2020)

editor said:


> That's what makes up much of the mainstream press now, with entire articles/features gleaned from an amusing photo/video/tweet, the 'controversial' utterances of some D list celeb, fake fallouts between celebs and PR-pumped made up stories about some bollocks or another.
> 
> It's the kind of stuff that in the past would just about merit a thread on a bulletin boards, but now becomes trending stories shared by millions. It's as depressing as fuck, but so long as the public have an insatiable appetite for it for this kind of crap, we'll keep on getting more of the same passed on as important news.


Didn't you post this thread?


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> Didn't you post this thread?


Whoosh goes the point.  This is a bulletin board not the mainstream press.
Bulletin boards are fine for this kind of thing. Like I said in the post you clearly failed to read properly.


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2020)

it isn't fine though. you're just helping to perpetuate the thing you're criticising.


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> it isn't fine though. you're just helping to perpetuate the thing you're criticising.


I don't think you understand how bulletin boards work. It's where people are free to discuss things that catch their eye in the news, and they can freely post about it regardless of whether you personally think the item is newsworthy or not.

And if it's not of interest to you, the good news is that there's plenty of other threads for you to join in with. Whining about a lively 420+ post thread because you don't like the topic is all a bit pathetic ,really. If you don't like it or it, don't post on it. Simple.

PS This board is not the mainstream press, which is what I'm criticising. Not sure why you're failing to see the difference.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 18, 2020)

Surely if you can just opt into fom and all the individual benefits of being a citizen of an EU member state while actually being from a non-EU state and enjoying any benefits that may be associated with that then literally everybody but a hardcore of headbangers would do that. I would just for the EHIC if nothing else. What a bizarre idea to push, they must think there is some utility to this bit what


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2020)

editor said:


> I don't think you understand how bulletin boards work. It's where people are free to discuss things that catch their eye in the news, and they can freely post about it regardless of whether you personally think the item is newsworthy or not.
> 
> And if it's not of interest to you, the good news is that there's plenty of other threads for you to join in with. Whining about a lively 420+ post thread because you don't like the topic is all a bit pathetic ,really. If you don't like it or it, don't post on it. Simple.
> 
> PS This board is not the mainstream press, which is what I'm criticising. Not sure why you're failing to see the difference.


I know this board isn't the mainstream press. But you wouldn't let someone post some bollocks made up clickbait story from The Sun, or the Mail or whatever without comment or criticism andI don't really see what's different here. Part of the reason stories like this are poisonous is because they're shared widely and used as the launchpad for shit arguments (sorry, 'lively 450+ post threads) all over social media (including urban). That's one of the reasons they're so popular with newspapers who want more clicks so they can sell advertising.


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> I know this board isn't the mainstream press. But you wouldn't let someone post some bollocks made up clickbait story from The Sun, or the Mail or whatever without comment or criticism andI don't really see what's different here.


There's loads of threads that get posted here that I think are bollocks but I rarely feel the need to dive in and go and _on and on_ about how shit I think they are.


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2020)

I've posted 7 times on this thread, and only 5  of them were about how it's a shit topic (and most of those in response to some bollocks you've posted). Not sure that really counts as _going on and on_ tbf.


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> I've posted 7 times on this thread, and only 5  of them were about how it's a shit topic (and most of those in response to some bollocks you've posted). Not sure that really counts as _going on and on_ tbf.


Sure sounds like you're going on and on to me now.


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2020)

whatever man. carry on filling your forum with bullshit clickbait if that's the way you want it to go. it's a shame though, and I'll tell you when I think it's a shame.


----------



## elbows (Feb 18, 2020)

Long before Brexit I determined that listening to a compilation of Avon from Blake's 7 putdowns was more rewarding than arguing with editor. After Brexit, I suspect little has changed, but I will now check.


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2020)

elbows said:


> Long before Brexit I determined that listening to a compilation of Avon from Blake's 7 putdowns was more rewarding than arguing with editor. After Brexit, I suspect little has changed, but I will now check.


Do these kind of unprovoked and needless personal attacks make you feel good?


----------



## elbows (Feb 18, 2020)

I was hoping you would see the funny side.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 18, 2020)

The Guardian reports news that surely put to rest some of the biggest fears expressed on Urban over Brexit.  

"The right of artists, entertainers, sports people and musicians to enter for performances, competitions and auditions will be retained."


----------



## Riklet (Feb 19, 2020)

S☼I said:


> It's like despite the literally thousands of pages on this on these very boards some people are three years back and just yelling "RACISTS!" over and over



"It'll be bad for the ECONOMY you RACISTS!"

Oh how things have moved on. If only South Park could do an episode....


----------



## andysays (Feb 19, 2020)

editor said:


> Give me some good news about Brexit, then.


Average weekly wages in the UK are apparently up to pre-financial crisis levels for the first time since 2008, according to BBC website.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 19, 2020)

andysays said:


> Average weekly wages in the UK are apparently up to pre-financial crisis levels for the first time since 2008, according to BBC website.


Is that in real terms?


----------



## prunus (Feb 19, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Surely if you can just opt into fom and all the individual benefits of being a citizen of an EU member state while actually being from a non-EU state and enjoying any benefits that may be associated with that then literally everybody but a hardcore of headbangers would do that. I would just for the EHIC if nothing else. What a bizarre idea to push, they must think there is some utility to this bit what



Maybe they’ll make it reciprocal, so that for each person who takes up the right here 1 person in the EU gets it into the UK.

That way people who don’t like EU people coming here by freedom of movement can limit it by limiting their own freedoms, and those that do like it can get it by giving it. 

Direct democracy in action.


----------



## andysays (Feb 19, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Is that in real terms?


Yes, in real terms.

No link cos I'm posting on my phone, but the story is in the business section from yesterday.


----------



## flypanam (Feb 19, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Is that in real terms?


According to Michael Roberts, no.








						UK: full employment, but falling incomes
					

Britain’s unemployment rate has fallen to a new 42-year low of 4.3% in the three months to July. That’s down from 4.4% a month ago and the lowest since 1975.  That sounds good news for all – …




					thenextrecession.wordpress.com
				



_Britain’s unemployment rate has fallen to a new 42-year low of 4.3% in the three months to July. That’s down from 4.4% a month ago and the lowest since 1975.  That sounds good news for all – until we look at what is happening to average wages for British workers after inflation is deducted.  Average weekly earnings only rose by 2.1% per year in the quarter, weaker than expected and the same as last month.  But inflation jumped from 2.6% to 2.9%.  So real wages are falling and the decline is accelerating – for the average._


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 19, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Is that in real terms?



According to the BBC, the average worker is now 65p better off in real terms than they were 12 years ago.



> But to many workers, this minor economic landmark will serve less as a cause for celebration and more as a reminder that the past decade has been the worst for improvements in living standards in more than 200 years.











						Wages back above pre-economic crisis levels
					

Average wages - when adjusted for inflation - exceed pre-crisis levels for the first time since 2008.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## kabbes (Feb 19, 2020)

Well that’s something to, if not celebrate, at least have some relief about.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 19, 2020)

What will you all be spending your 65p on?

I might go and buy a Wispa.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> According to the BBC, the average worker is now 65p better off in real terms than they were 12 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My wages remain about 15% below 2008 levels


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> What will you all be spending your 65p on?
> 
> I might go and buy a Wispa.


Be thankful you have that 65p


----------



## High Voltage (Feb 19, 2020)

I can honestly say that I've not had a pay increase OR a cost of living increase for certainly 10 maybe 15 years

My pay has changed three times during that time and that's once up (substantially) and once down even more substantially due to changing jobs - and no pay increase likely EVER in my current job

So where the fuck this "pay increase" is coming from I'm fucked if I know

Edit: Stupid typo . . . again


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 19, 2020)

Funny isn't it, reckon very few of the people I know are as or more comfortable now than pre crash. Clearly some people are


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 19, 2020)

I don't know how they calculate the average, or if they include the pay of chief executives - if they do, then the wages of 1,538,000 people could stay the same for every £1 million rise in executive pay and the average rise would still be 65p.


----------



## killer b (Feb 19, 2020)

we're getting our first pay rise in about 5 years this april. think this is pretty typical tbh.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 19, 2020)

While we're sharing anecdotes, since April last year I've been working in a full-time permanent position (with no zero-hours fuckery, to boot!) that pays more than anything else I've had for the past ten years or more. Although if I had to assign a primary cause for that, I suspect that it would be because I've gotten older.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 19, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> What will you all be spending your 65p on?
> 
> I might go and buy a Wispa.



You might need to shop around - I got one recently and I think it was 80p.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 19, 2020)

Are Wispa bars still the same size they were 12 years ago?


----------



## andysays (Feb 19, 2020)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> You might need to shop around - I got one recently and I think it was 80p.


I was in Morrison's earlier, Wispas are still 65p there, but so are Yorkies so I bought one of them instead...


----------



## pesh (Feb 19, 2020)

Really glad my rent has only gone up by 65p over the last 12 years.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 19, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> According to the BBC, the average worker is now 65p better off in real terms than they were 12 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not sure average is the right figure. Large increases at the top can mask lack of increase or decrease for the rest of us. Median is normally better.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 19, 2020)

Rent prices decline for first time in ten years. 








						UK rents fall for first time in a decade
					

Yorkshire records biggest percentage decline but signs emerge rents are rising again




					www.google.com


----------



## pesh (Feb 19, 2020)

You can really feel the difference. Probably going to buy one of those double wispas.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Rent prices decline for first time in ten years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That story's from early 2019 - rents went up again after that.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 19, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> That story's from early 2019 - rents went up again after that.


oh my bad. Will look for up to date statistics.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> oh my bad. Will look for up to date statistics.



I looked for a link but they all seem to be from Landlord Magazine or whatever and fucked if I'm clicking on any of that shit.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 19, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> I looked for a link but they all seem to be from Landlord Magazine or whatever and fucked if I'm clicking on any of that shit.


Yeah I got that as well. Lots of vested interest statistics and not much honesty in how they are compared and presented.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2020)

pesh said:


> You can really feel the difference. Probably going to buy one of those double wispas.


wish i'd got one while i was getting my dinner


----------



## alex_ (Feb 19, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Are Wispa bars still the same size they were 12 years ago?



possibly, but once we leave the EU they can be any size you like !


----------



## two sheds (Feb 19, 2020)

and any ingredients


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2020)

alex_ said:


> possibly, but once we leave the EU they can be any size you like !


Chlorinated too.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Not sure average is the right figure. Large increases at the top can mask lack of increase or decrease for the rest of us. Median is normally better.


Yep. Found this but only up to 2016.







Plus, as others have noted, wages aren't the full story. There are also other additional costs to factor in that have gone up a lot since 2008, like rent rises and, for many younger people, student loan repayments based on the new 9k tuition fees. Also, this is only full-time. Changes in working dynamics re full and part time can also skew things.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 19, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. Found this but only up to 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To 2019:


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2020)

So, still significantly below 2008. But the rich keep getting richer. And the tories keep getting back in. 

And the BBC keep misrepresenting the stats to favour the govt.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 19, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So, still significantly below 2008. But the rich keep getting richer. And the tories keep getting back in.


2007/8 as peak SWOT analysis for neoliberalism


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> 2007/8 as peak SWOT analysis for neoliberalism


I'll see if I can find a top 1 per cent graph for that period. I will wager that it will show a smooth - and steep - upwards curve.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 19, 2020)

two sheds said:


> and any ingredients



I'll miss having horse meat in the lasagne.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 19, 2020)

NoXion said:


> I'll miss having horse meat in the lasagne.



God - yeah, I can remember all that carry on.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 19, 2020)

NoXion said:


> I'll miss having horse meat in the lasagne.


I never saw what all the fuss was about, although those knackered old racehorses could be a bit tough.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 19, 2020)

Had a horse steak in france once. Was lovely. Assume that wasn't some knackered old racing horse pumped full of steroids then shot when it got a bit slow and minced for cheap readymeals like the nags in the lasagnes though tbf


----------



## MrSki (Feb 19, 2020)

andysays said:


> Yes, in real terms.
> 
> No link cos I'm posting on my phone, but the story is in the business section from yesterday.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 19, 2020)

Just came across a big Twitter thread in which some Remainers who presumably wanted the right of U.K. citizens to travel, work or live abroad in the EU having a right old go at British citizens who are living or working in Spain .


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 19, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Had a horse steak in france once. Was lovely. Assume that wasn't some knackered old racing horse pumped full of steroids then shot when it got a bit slow and minced for cheap readymeals like the nags in the lasagnes though tbf



Good old EU food standards.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 19, 2020)

MrSki said:


>




Blue check Twitter accounts are always a trusted source of information.  As is Twitter of course.


----------



## MrSki (Feb 20, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Blue check Twitter accounts are always a trusted source of information.  As is Twitter of course.


You really are a tedious twat.
Andy Verity is a financial journalist who currently works for the BBC & the clip is from the BBC via twitter.
You seem to favour right wing sources so surely the BBC would be a trusted source for you? Or is it not right wing enough?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2020)

Didn't know this , according to The Times  just under half of flights taken by men aged 20 to 45 in 2019 were for stag do's.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 20, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Didn't know this , according to The Times  just under half of flights taken by men aged 20 to 45 in 2019 were for stag do's.


I don’t believe this.  It sounds bollocks.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 20, 2020)

Sounds true to me. I also hear that just under half of flights taken by women aged 45 to 60 are for divorce celebrations.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I don’t believe this.  It sounds bollocks.


Its in The Mirror  as well apparantly based on tel interviews with 2000 people by Hubub  some enviroment group.https://www.hubbub.org.uk/whywingit


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2020)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 20, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Had a horse steak in france once. Was lovely. Assume that wasn't some knackered old racing horse pumped full of steroids then shot when it got a bit slow and minced for cheap readymeals like the nags in the lasagnes though tbf


Horse meat can be amazing, better than beef. But you're right in your assumption. If it was juicy and tender, the horse steak you ate will have been from a horse bred to be eaten and killed at a  young age. In a way, eating knackered old horses is less bad ethically - at least they had a life first.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Horse meat can be amazing, better than beef. But you're right in your assumption. If it was juicy and tender, the horse steak you ate will have been from a horse bred to be eaten and killed at a  young age. In a way, eating knackered old horses is less bad ethically - at least they had a life first.


Didnt realise that 88% of horses are raised for eating in France 








						Countries Where Foals Are Bred For Horsemeat
					

We may dislike it, but there are still many people who eat horse meat. A few years ago, I interviewed a woman from Malta who was living in Britain. When I asked her what she missed, she said the beauty of the island and her mother serving horse meat. For her, horse meat was a taste of home.




					www.ponybox.com


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 20, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Didnt realise that 88% of horses are raised for eating in France
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At least you can be sure the meat hasn't come from a factory farm. tbh I don't see it as any different from eating British lamb.

That's 88 per cent of draught horses, btw, not 88 per cent of all horses. Unsurprisingly they breed horses with plenty of meat on them to eat.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 20, 2020)

I've never been through an airport or on a flight where I got the impression that anywhere close to half the men 20-45 were on their way to or from stag dos - but then I've never flown on Hell Airlines.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> I've never been through an airport or on a flight where I got the impression that anywhere close to half the men 20-45 were on their way to or from stag dos - but then I've never flown on Hell Airlines.


I'm sure the figures are questionable but in my experience avoid the Thursday Friday mid/late  evening flights from Manchester to Faro/Prague/Barcelona/Alicante after Easter,


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 20, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> I've never been through an airport or on a flight where I got the impression that anywhere close to half the men 20-45 were on their way to or from stag dos - but then I've never flown on Hell Airlines.


Many years ago I went to Riga for a weekend back when flights there were absurdly cheap, and it did appear that the majority of British men in the city were on stag dos. It was weird, and the locals didn't quite know what to make of it.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 20, 2020)

On the other side of the coin, I can’t imagine many of the flights to the US or Japan are made up of stag dos.  

It just sounds highly unbelievable.  Like one of those things somebody made up as a joke on Twitter that then gets reported as fact in a tabloid.


----------



## pesh (Feb 20, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 199170


----------



## 2hats (Feb 20, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It just sounds highly unbelievable.  Like one of those things somebody made up as a joke on Twitter that then gets reported as fact in a tabloid.


I suspect there is a clue here...


The39thStep said:


> tel[ephone] interviews with 2000 people by Hubub


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 20, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> I've never been through an airport or on a flight where I got the impression that anywhere close to half the men 20-45 were on their way to or from stag dos - but then I've never flown on Hell Airlines.



I flew back through Malaga a couple of years ago and they have a separate area where they've dumped all the UK budget airline flights.    

The stag do or similar lads session type holiday ratio there was well over 50% I'd say. And similar for hen dos amongst the women.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 20, 2020)

2hats said:


> I suspect there is a clue here...


There’s nothing on CensusWide’s website (who apparently did the research) that allows me to see the original data, sampling method or anything that would allow me to assess the validity and reliability of either the research or its interpretation.  I still call bollocks.


----------



## 2hats (Feb 20, 2020)

kabbes said:


> There’s nothing on CensusWide’s website (who apparently did the research) that allows me to see the original data, sampling method or anything that would allow me to assess the validity and reliability of either the research or its interpretation.  I still call bollocks.


Sorry - for the avoidance of doubt - I was casting some degree of scepticism over the numbers.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Many years ago I went to Riga for a weekend back when flights there were absurdly cheap, and it did appear that the majority of British men in the city were on stag dos. It was weird, and the locals didn't quite know what to make of it.


Riga, Vilnius, Tallinn, and a couple of others have targeted the party market and set themselves up as stag-do destinations with cheap booze, group accomodation, bars, firearms packages, and easily available prostitution. The problem is that it's worked to the extent that many other people now avoid them like the plague because of it. It's a shame because all are very definitely worth seeing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 20, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Riga, Vilnius, Tallinn, and a couple of others have targeted the party market and set themselves up as stag-do destinations with cheap booze, bars, firearms packages, and easily available prostitution. The problem is that it's worked to the extent that many people now avoid them like the plague because of it. It's a shame because all are very definitely worth seeing.


We were in an establishment with nearly-naked women dancing on the bar (this is actually very normal in Riga) when a group with a man dressed as a baby was refused entry. The bouncer even looked at us as if to say 'wtf?' It's a real clash of cultures.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Feb 20, 2020)

kabbes said:


> On the other side of the coin, I can’t imagine many of the flights to the US or Japan are made up of stag dos.



I've been on two 7 days Las Vegas Stag dos back in the day....


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 20, 2020)

Probably says something about the poverty of aspiration of my mates or something but have never been abroad for a stag do, the furthest was brighton (and everybody pissed and moaned with a few no shows). Tbh if I'm spending a big chunk of money and taking time off work I'd kind of want to choose my own holiday at a time and place of my choosing really


----------



## kabbes (Feb 20, 2020)

Harry Smiles said:


> I've been on two 7 days Las Vegas Stag dos back in the day....


Ok...


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 20, 2020)

Stag doos are shit aren't they


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 20, 2020)

Just had a party the night before we got married. Left early, left them to it.


----------



## elbows (Feb 20, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Didn't know this , according to The Times  just under half of flights taken by men aged 20 to 45 in 2019 were for stag do's.



Presumably the other half were drummers?


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 20, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Riga, Vilnius, Tallinn, and a couple of others have targeted the party market and set themselves up as stag-do destinations with cheap booze, group accomodation, bars, firearms packages, and easily available prostitution. The problem is that it's worked to the extent that many other people now avoid them like the plague because of it. It's a shame because all are very definitely worth seeing.


When I was in Birmingham, I used to have lunch in a greasy spoon called Cafe Face (really). One day I picked up the Sun and had a flick through it. The agony aunt column's letter that week was from a bloke who'd gone on a stag do somewhere in the East, and been egged on by his "mates" to have sex with a prostitute. On arriving home, his conscience tapped him on the shoulder, and informed him of what he'd done. From what the guy said, he was on the verge of throwing himself in the river.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Stag doos are shit aren't they


Cant stand them tbh Never had one personally , went fishing with a mate the day before my last marriage  had a great time away from all the stress of the arrangements


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 20, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Stag doos are shit aren't they



Went to one at Santa Pod, for double shitness. The groom wanted us to stay overnight and suffer a second day of 'top-fuellers', we all bailed off to a free party and were home by 4 on Sunday...


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> When I was in Birmingham, I used to have lunch in a greasy spoon called Cafe Face (really). One day I picked up the Sun and had a flick through it. The agony aunt column's letter that week was from a bloke who'd gone on a stag do somewhere in the East, and been egged on by his "mates" to have sex with a prostitute. On arriving home, his conscience tapped him on the shoulder, and informed him of what he'd done. From what the guy said, he was on the verge of throwing himself in the river.


Went to Benidorm on a stag do and the groom to be got robbed by a load of Morrocans when he was coming out of a brothel.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 20, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Cant stand them tbh Never had one personally , went fishing with a mate the day before my last marriage  had a great time away from all the stress of the arrangements


Only been on one in my life. The guy's fiancee had, a few days earlier been henned by her girlfriends Belfast style - tied to a lamppost and covered in vinegar and yoghurt. The guy himself was still raging about this when we met him - "if you guys try any funny business you're dead men".


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 20, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Went to one at Santa Pod, for double shitness. The groom wanted us to stay overnight and suffer a second day of 'top-fuellers', we all bailed off to a free party and were home by 4 on Sunday...


Sounds thrilling!  
What's wrong with people who organise something without consulting people first? They must think they're the bollox, and everyone is going to see how great they are when the surprise is sprung,


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 20, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 199170



Being dragged on extended overseas stag/hen dos is easily avoided by simply not being friends with irritating twats.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Being dragged on extended overseas stag/hen dos is easily avoided by simply not being friends with irritating twats.


Everyones the father of hindsight Frank


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Being dragged on extended overseas stag/hen dos is easily avoided by simply not being friends with irritating twats.


Or by being old enough to remember back when a stag do, (if it happened at all), meant just getting more pissed than usual in your local/town.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 20, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Everyones the father of hindsight Frank



[smug]Except for the some of us who've never been on a stag night  [/smug]


----------



## kabbes (Feb 20, 2020)

I always turned down the overseas ones (except one in Belfast, which I don’t count).  The UK ones were bad enough though.

I’m too old to have friends with stag dos now, for which I am very grateful.


----------



## souljacker (Feb 20, 2020)

My stag do was in Tallinn. That was only for close mates who were all well up for it. Then we had another night out in reading for everyone else. Then finally, a calm relaxed one with my dad and father in law. Ticked all the boxes required and were all a good laugh.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I’m too old to have friends with stag dos now, for which I am very grateful.


I think I'm a bit older than you and went to a great one in November. Six of us had dinner and drinks up The Shard, a few more drinks in a nearby pub and Ubers home soon after midnight. When I got home, our neighbour's daughter's were just going out.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 20, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Being dragged on extended overseas stag/hen dos is easily avoided by simply not being having friends.


Which, in fairness, isn't that difficult... for cyclists.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 20, 2020)

Bezza's was in the Dogstar, Dedsilence night. Then some dick'ead booked a fucking stripper


----------



## kabbes (Feb 20, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> I think I'm a bit older than you and went to a great one in November. Six of us had dinner and drinks up The Shard, a few more drinks in a nearby pub and Ubers home soon after midnight. When I got home, our neighbour's daughters were just going out.


 

Maybe you’ve reached an age where some of your friends have got divorced and are now getting remarried?  Of my core friends whose weddings I went to, they’re all still married right now.  But I do know some other more peripheral friends that are starting to get divorced.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 20, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Maybe you’ve reached an age where some of your friends have got divorced and are now getting remarried?  Of my core friends whose weddings I went to, they’re all still married right now.  But I do know some other more peripheral friends that are starting to get divorced.


In that regard, getting married is a lot like getting pissed. It's great for a while, then one day you wake up and look at yourself in the mirror, and say 'what the fuck did I do! Never again!' But you're fucking stupid, and don't take the best advice you ever gave yourself.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Maybe you’ve reached an age where some of your friends have got divorced and are now getting remarried?


Yes. The guy in November was on his 3rd. We reckon he's got something against money.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 20, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. The guy in November was on his 3rd. We reckon he's got something against money.


Therapy would have been a lot cheaper


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 20, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> The guy in November was on his 3rd. We reckon he's got something against money.


Or likes that cake they often have.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 20, 2020)

Chilli.s said:


> Or likes that cake they often have.


Wedding?


----------



## killer b (Feb 20, 2020)

The last stag night I went on was a pub crawl round Lancaster. We took the bus.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Therapy would have been a lot cheaper


Or assassination.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 20, 2020)

I was going to say "Or cocaine" but that wouldn't actually  be true.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 20, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. The guy in November was on his 3rd. We reckon he's got something against money.


<Heads off to check feminist textbook>


----------



## NoXion (Feb 20, 2020)

Never been on a stag do. Can't say that I'm at all broken up about that, but at the same time I'm not going to dismiss the notion in a fit of sour grapes.


----------



## Poot (Feb 20, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Never been on a stag do. Can't say that I'm at all broken up about that, but at the same time I'm not going to dismiss the notion in a fit of sour grapes.


Well, one way to look at it is that it's cheaper to go on the stag weekend (I mean, you can pretend one of you's getting married, I dunno, get t shirts printed or something) get pissed, be silly and then - and here is the cruncher - DON'T get married. You'd save a fortune. You don't even need to buy wedding presents. 

We should all do it! Let's book it!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 20, 2020)

two sheds said:


> [smug]Except for the some of us who've never been on a stag night  [/smug]



I've been to one, which was a Chinese dinner and a couple of pints at the pub. I think it was me, the groom's dad, the groom and the bride's sister's fella who was a bit of a nob and turned up to the wedding in jeans.


----------



## seeformiles (Feb 20, 2020)

I avoid them as much as possible but did have to go on one to Amsterdam since I was the best man. I promised the bride to be I would make sure the groom didn’t sleep with a prostitute or drown in a canal - so it was a pretty civilised affair as far as these things go (and I think that despite the drinking and drugging we were pretty good ambassadors for the UK on the whole). Have turned down a few overseas ones after seeing the “plan” and who’s going. I’ve got no qualms about saying no to them and you’ll never catch me in a lap dancing club. Never been very good at this “lad” thing at all - especially being loud and boorish in public. Mixed company is far more interesting anyway.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 20, 2020)

Every single stag night I have been on (including my own) has followed pretty much the same pattern,a pub crawl around Nantwich.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 20, 2020)

seeformiles said:


> Never been very good at this “lad” thing at all - especially being loud and boorish in public. Mixed company is far more interesting anyway.


This. Even if the plan is to have a good drunken/drugged night out, mixed company is better. Groups of pissed lads dressed in mankinis is just sad.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 20, 2020)

seeformiles said:


> I avoid them as much as possible but did have to go on one to Amsterdam since I was the best man. I promised the bride to be I would make sure the groom didn’t sleep with a prostitute or drown in a canal - so it was a pretty civilised affair as far as these things go (and I think that despite the drinking and drugging we were pretty good ambassadors for the UK on the whole). Have turned down a few overseas ones after seeing the “plan” and who’s going. I’ve got no qualms about saying no to them and you’ll never catch me in a lap dancing club. Never been very good at this “lad” thing at all - especially being loud and boorish in public. Mixed company is far more interesting anyway.


Yeah, much the same for me. Last stag do I went on we went bowling. Wild times.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 20, 2020)

Last stag do I was on included footgolf. Completely fucked my knee up


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 20, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Last stag do I was on included footgolf. Completely fucked my knee up



Is that kicking golf balls


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 20, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Many years ago I went to Riga for a weekend back when flights there were absurdly cheap, and it did appear that the majority of British men in the city were on stag dos. It was weird, and the locals didn't quite know what to make of it.


“British” men have a horrific reputation in Riga ti this day. Some idiot urinating on a war memorial didn’t help the cause either.

Nothing to do with Brexit, mind.


----------



## maomao (Feb 20, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is that kicking golf balls


It's kicking footballs into big holes. My hated (by me) ex manager at work did it on his stag do so have always assumed it's for cunts. 

I had dinner and slept with my fiancee the night before I got married. Was a bit worried she'd leg it if I went out for the evening.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 20, 2020)

Pitch and putt using footballs. It was a bit if a laff, but my dodgy knees weren't up to toebunging the ball down the course.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 20, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> You'd rather be associated with a multi-state body that does all the above much but more effectively and aggressively? And not by default, but by choice?



you put things into words well


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2020)

Poot said:


> Well, one way to look at it is that it's cheaper to go on the stag weekend (I mean, you can pretend one of you's getting married, I dunno, get t shirts printed or something) get pissed, be silly and then - and here is the cruncher - DON'T get married. You'd save a fortune. You don't even need to buy wedding presents.
> 
> We should all do it! Let's book it!


Let's just cut to the chase I will now vomit on you


----------



## Gerry1time (Feb 20, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Every single stag night I have been on (including my own) has followed pretty much the same pattern,a pub crawl around Nantwich.



Just checking, do you or anyone you know have any sort of connection with Nantwich? Or has life just been incredibly random to you?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 20, 2020)

Gerry1time said:


> Just checking, do you or anyone you know have any sort of connection with Nantwich? Or has life just been incredibly random to you?


----------



## Streathamite (Feb 20, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Wrong poster. Although you have to ask why Marty1 chose his name.


Sorry, yes, my f-up!


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 20, 2020)

Gerry1time said:


> Just checking, do you or anyone you know have any sort of connection with Nantwich? Or has life just been incredibly random to you?


Born and raised in Crewe,  Nantwich is just up the road and it's where all the good pubs were


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 21, 2020)

Never been on a stag do, back in the 90s, the British lads coming over to Dublin really put me off the idea of them.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 21, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Never been on a stag do, back in the 90s, the British lads coming over to Dublin really put me off the idea of them.


Did you never experience a stag do before "British lads coming over to Dublin"? I reckon I'm older than you, and I saw plenty of Irish lads having stag parties in Dublin, and they tended to get equally, it not a lot more pissed than people from another country.
Seems like some racist shite to me.


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 21, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> Did you never experience a stag do before "British lads coming over to Dublin"? I reckon I'm older than you, and I saw plenty of Irish lads having stag parties in Dublin, and they tended to get equally, it not a lot more pissed than people from another country.
> Seems like some racist shite to me.



No, I'd never experienced stag dos and yes, they were loud, bigoted, groping fuckwits of the highest order.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Feb 21, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> No, I'd never experienced stag dos and yes, they were loud, bigoted, groping fuckwits of the highest order.


Just the English/British?


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 21, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> Just the English/British?



Yeah. Obviously. Irish are beyond reproach.


----------



## Poot (Feb 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Let's just cut to the chase I will now vomit on you


And I will fight you. Then we can be thrown out of the club and job's a good 'un. Next stop Riga or Budapest or somewhere. Excellent. 

I think I prefer this virtual version, actually.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 21, 2020)

Gerry1time said:


> Just checking, do you or anyone you know have any sort of connection with Nantwich? Or has life just been incredibly random to you?



Nantwich has been very popular for stag dos ever since Ryanair introduced their Manchester - Manchester service.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 21, 2020)

I wasn't there but some (welsh) lads I knew from football went to dublin late 90s/early 00s, not sure if stag or not but basically same thing, lads all lads etc, anyway they got booted out of a bar on temple bar and had words spoken from the guards for giving alternate renditions of ooh ahh paul mcgrath and ooh ahh up the ra


----------



## hot air baboon (Feb 21, 2020)

while stocks last


----------



## pesh (Feb 21, 2020)

whats the average lifespan of a butterfly again?


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 21, 2020)

Can someone hunt down and kill that moaning gammon brexiteer with the shit goatee On the cruise ship in Japan 

a global epidemic is spoiling his fucking holiday and he’s told them he’s british and demands better treatment but apparently they are all bloody foreigners and don’t speak the queens English. This wouldn’t have happen with a blue passport 

the state of it


----------



## TopCat (Feb 21, 2020)

hot air baboon said:


> while stocks last
> 
> View attachment 199372


This is just an advert isn't it.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 21, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> Can someone hunt down and kill that moaning gammon brexiteer with the shit goatee On the cruise ship in Japan
> 
> a global epidemic is spoiling his fucking holiday and he’s told them he’s british and demands better treatment but apparently they are all bloody foreigners and don’t speak the queens English. This wouldn’t have happen with a blue passport
> 
> the state of it


Must be pretty bleak on that ship. Dying people, ineffective barrier controls for infection, reports of personal meds running out.

Worse to know that other nations stepped up and supported their citizens to leave whilst our govt did the least possible and what they did do, was done badly.

So you insult him, condemn him for moaning and wish him dead. He may be a fucking bigot but you truly are a cunt.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Must be pretty bleak on that ship. Dying people, ineffective barrier controls for infection, reports of personal meds running out.
> 
> Worse to know that other nations stepped up and supported their citizens to leave whilst our govt did the least possible and what they did do, was done badly.
> 
> So you insult him, condemn him for moaning and wish him dead. He may be a fucking bigot but you truly are a cunt.



behave you drama Hoover. Two people died on the diamond princess and they had a combined age of 171

the infection control processes put in place weren’t ideal but worked

people are being released from the vessel. This gobshite is waving a metaphorical Union Jack around demanding shit

same fucker probably heard gobbing off about snowflakes down the british legion

what he needs is a stiff upper lip like wot won two world wars and one World Cup

he can get in the sea along with that flooded Vic Haddock creature from ironbridge


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 21, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> the infection control processes put in place weren’t ideal but worked



It went from under a half dozen to near on 650 cases infected in 2 weeks, and you think the quarantine worked?


----------



## elbows (Feb 21, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> It went from under a half dozen to near on 650 cases infected in 2 weeks, and you think the quarantine worked?



It will probably be studied for years to come as a vivid and cruel example of what not to do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> It went from under a half dozen to near on 650 cases infected in 2 weeks, and you think the quarantine worked?


It's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## andysays (Feb 21, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> It went from under a half dozen to near on 650 cases infected in 2 weeks, and you think the quarantine worked?


As I already pointed out on the relevant thread, the point of the quarantine was to stop it spreading beyond the people on the ship.

But if we're talking about the bloke I think we're talking about, he apparently is in the early stages of dementia, so I don't think it's really fair to have a pop at him, or to use whatever anyone imagines he's said as a way of attacking Brexiteers (this bit not directed at CS)


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 21, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> It went from under a half dozen to near on 650 cases infected in 2 weeks, and you think the quarantine worked?


Operation was a success but the patient unfortunately died


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 21, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> It went from under a half dozen to near on 650 cases infected in 2 weeks, and you think the quarantine worked?



it’s a boat stuffed to the gills with old people socialising sharing eating facilities. The Half dozen to near on 650 cases infected in two weeks is likely to be a lag in the testing and diagnostic process, they were likely all exposed from day one patient one So your “soaring infection rate” is actually natural progression in two weeks (14 days... ring any bells)

but keep on banging out your walking dead pandemic panic wet dreams

anyhow, this isn’t an epidemiology tutorial it’s a critique of the fuckers attitude. I am bathing in the delicious schadenfreude of it all.

eta the stats actually reflect the low morbidity  rates of the coronavirus. In an almost perfect social and physical environment for the spread of a virus and a population exposed who are likely least able to fight it, only two deaths of 84/87 year old is pretty amazing


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 21, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> it’s a boat stuffed to the gills with old people socialising sharing eating facilities. The Half dozen to near on 650 cases infected in two weeks is likely to be a lag in the testing and diagnosis process, they were likely all exposed from day one patient one So your “soaring infection rate” is actually natural progression in two weeks (14 days... ring any bells)



The ship has been in quarantine, passengers confined to their cabins, not 'socialising [and] sharing eating facilities', you clearly haven't a fucking clue what you are posting about.



> but keep on banging out your walking dead pandemic panic wet dreams



Err, I've being posting positive news on the subject, you total fucking twat.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 21, 2020)

tbf two deaths out of 3,700 so far isn't so bad. People regularly keel over on cruises at the best of times given the demographic. 650 out of 3,700 on board infected - just over 15 per cent - is that bad or medium or good? I don't know.

A Brexit connection seems a bit of a stretch, though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbf two deaths out of 3,700 so far isn't so bad. People regularly keel over on cruises at the best of times given the demographic. 650 out of 3,700 on board infected - just over 15 per cent - is that bad or medium or good? I don't know.


It's bad for the 650


----------



## TopCat (Feb 21, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbf two deaths out of 3,700 so far isn't so bad. People regularly keel over on cruises at the best of times given the demographic. 650 out of 3,700 on board infected - just over 15 per cent - is that bad or medium or good? I don't know.
> 
> A Brexit connection seems a bit of a stretch, though.


Reportedly they have only tested half of the passengers.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 21, 2020)

The life long effects of pneumonia are not to be dismissed.


----------



## elbows (Feb 21, 2020)

andysays said:


> As I already pointed out on the relevant thread, the point of the quarantine was to stop it spreading beyond the people on the ship.



Its going to be a lot easier if I just wait a long time for the inevitable studies and lessons learnt from this boat clusterfuck to emerge.

You are not wrong about the primary aim, but thats too narrow a picture to paint of the full aims and requirements of such a quarantine.

In any case there is every chance they have failed at the primary aim too, since recently they eventually let many people leave the boat and do their thing in Japan. And a quarantine is not usually considered a guide to best practice when one of the quarantine officers ends up getting infected, which also happened with this boat.

edited to add - well failed is probably too strong a word to use. They (Japan) still got something out of it, at the very least it bought some time. Meanwhile it is suspected that there is community spread in Japan now anyway, spread that came from other routes.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 21, 2020)

This sort of attack from that dog man above is really shit. Very reminiscent of those remoaners who gleefully pointed out the age of leave voters and welcomed their deaths as a way of getting their way politically.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This sort of attack from that dog man above is really shit. Very reminiscent of those remoaners who gleefully pointed out the age of leave voters and welcomed their deaths as a way of getting their way politically.



Yeah, that had to be peak remoaner bitterness, really showed the true nasty colours of some people.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 21, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> The ship has been in quarantine, passengers confined to their cabins, not 'socialising [and] sharing eating facilities, you clearly haven't a fucking clue what you are posting about.
> 
> 
> 
> Err, I've being posting positive news on the subject, you total fucking twat.



your understanding of quarantine is wonky. It’s really simple. Someone got on the boat infected, normal services continued till someone falls ill, is diagnosed/suspected then quarantine is put in place...the space between arrival on board and first quarantine is uncontrolled virually Everyone could have been exposed

this isn’t even specialised knowledge this is logic....


----------



## TopCat (Feb 21, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yeah, that had to be peak remoaner bitterness, really showed the true nasty colours of some people.


It may have been peak remoaner thus far. I suspect though that it will be trounced by future comments and actions.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This sort of attack from that dog man above is really shit. Very reminiscent of those remoaners who gleefully pointed out the age of leave voters and welcomed their deaths as a way of getting their way politically.


i do that as well


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It may have been peak remoaner thus far. I suspect though that it will be trounced by future comments and actions.



LOLZ


----------



## gosub (Feb 21, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> i do that as well


----------



## TopCat (Feb 21, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> i do that as well


I'm not surprised but this sort of thing is always shocking, the reality that a fellow human really does have a dog heart.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I'm not surprised but this sort of thing is always shocking, the reality that a fellow human really does have a dog heart.



Possibly the greatest compliment you could give a fellow human  thank you


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> Possibly the greatest compliment you could give a fellow human  thank you


Yeh it'll conk out rather earlier than a human heart


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 21, 2020)

Dogs have the best hearts, leave them.out if this...whatever this is


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Dogs have the best hearts, leave them.out if this...whatever this is


They're good natured little things.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh it'll conk out rather earlier than a human heart



But toppers with enthusiastic optimistic love, you wouldn’t find them moaning about cruise ships


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> But toppers with enthusiastic optimistic love, you wouldn’t find them moaning about cruise ships


Yes you would, dogs become seasick very easily


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes you would, dogs become seasick very easily



Do you have data for this


----------



## two sheds (Feb 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes you would, dogs become seasick very easily



Not Sea Dogs they don't


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Not Sea Dogs they don't


Even sea dogs. Captain kidd spent half his time at sea throwing up and captain Johnson's general history of the pirates is replete with tales of pirates being caught unawares due to their mal de mer


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 21, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> Do you have data for this



Dog data?  It’s a little ruff.


----------



## Supine (Feb 21, 2020)

Brexiteer angry that brexit means he can't employ foreign labour 









						Brexiteer blasts immigration plans as 'catastrophic' for fishing industry
					

ONE of Scotland’s staunchest Brexiteers has blasted Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit immigration plans, warning they will be “catastrophic” for…




					www.thenational.scot


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 21, 2020)

Oh dear, EU can’t make a deal between themselves for EU budget due to Brexit.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes you would, dogs become seasick very easily



Raffles spent 4 years on the Radio Caroline ship without getting seasick.



> Raffles became a crew member during the time that the Ross Revenge was being fitted out in Santander and as the story goes was rescued by Peter Chicago in the Port of Solares where apparantly he was found after being thrown into the water by spanish dockers. Raffles was resident onboard the Ross Revenge from 1983-1987 and lived with Peter until he passed away.
> Source


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 21, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> your understanding of quarantine is wonky. It’s really simple. Someone got on the boat infected, normal services continued till someone falls ill, is diagnosed/suspected then quarantine is put in place...the space between arrival on board and first quarantine is uncontrolled virually Everyone could have been exposed
> 
> this isn’t even specialised knowledge this is logic....



My understanding!


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 21, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> My understanding!



Yes. Your understanding.

You know patient zero/the index case sailed on the ship for 5 days then disembarked and was diagnosed only  six days later onshore. There was no quarantine until 11 days after Patient Zero first waltzed around the vessel


----------



## TopCat (Feb 21, 2020)

Supine said:


> Brexiteer angry that brexit means he can't employ foreign labour
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Asserting that his plan was to take less profit and pay the staff more, with productivity bonuses and a share in the dividend, he could have a chance. However he just wants cheap labour. He will adjust or sell his boat. Could be good money filleting fish when this is sorted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Raffles spent 4 years on the Radio Caroline ship without getting seasick.


Lucky auld raffles


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 21, 2020)

Supine said:


> Brexiteer angry that brexit means he can't employ foreign labour
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There’s an advert in that link to buy an EU passport for €25k. Slovenian. Seems if you have ancestors going back as far as four generations then your good. And these people seem to be able to guarantee to find the necessary proof that everyone is eligible.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 21, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Raffles spent 4 years on the Radio Caroline ship without getting seasick.


Such loving awareness


----------



## alex_ (Feb 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Reportedly they have only tested half of the passengers.



and the staff aren’t quarantined


----------



## TopCat (Feb 21, 2020)

alex_ said:


> and the staff aren’t quarantined


And the cabins suffer a shared air ventilation system that cant be turned off.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> eta the stats actually reflect the low morbidity  rates of the coronavirus. In an almost perfect social and physical environment for the spread of a virus and a population exposed who are likely least able to fight it, only two deaths of 84/87 year old is pretty amazing


Mortality, not morbidity.  The morbidity rate would be the rate at which people get the illness, not die from it.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 21, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Mortality, not morbidity.  The morbidity rate would be the rate at which people get the illness, not die from it.


 
In a 3711 pool of candidates and after 11 days unchecked exposure on a cruise ship with social areas, social eating, leisure facilities and all the increased risk profiles of cruise life, stair rail fomites for instance, cleaning staff contacting through all cabins systematically and with a statistically weak population there are only circa 637 testing positive for the virus, this is an unexpectedly low morbidity rate Versus the current narrative and specific circumstances


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> In a 3711 pool of candidates and after 11 days unchecked exposure on a cruise ship with social areas, social eating, leisure facilities and all the increased risk profiles of cruise life, stair rail fomites for instance, cleaning staff contacting through all cabins systematically and with a statistically weak population there are only circa 637 testing positive for the virus, this is an unexpectedly low morbidity rate Versus the current narrative and specific circumstances


You said it had a low morbidity rate and immediately quoted the death rate as evidence for this.  But that’s a mismatch of data.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 21, 2020)

kabbes said:


> You said it had a low morbidity rate and immediately quoted the death rate as evidence for this.  But that’s a mismatch of data.



Sorry my analysis and explaination of it obviously needs to slow down and be broken down into digestible size chunks for you maybe I was unconsciously packaging it in simpler terms


----------



## TopCat (Feb 21, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> Sorry my analysis and explaination of it obviously needs to slow down and be broken down into digestible size chunks for you maybe I was unconsciously packaging it in simpler terms


I think perhaps you are quite stupid and despite this being obvious to others, you have little self awareness.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 21, 2020)

I just looked up morbidity versus mortality


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 22, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I think perhaps you are quite stupid and despite this being obvious to others, you have little self awareness.


All of the above 
please find my “tears in the rain C-beams infectious diseases version monologue” below

I’m currently employed by a national company and  literally just got paid to be involved  in drafting and signing off on the corporate policies, procedures and protocols to mitigate risk of corona virus on the 25 vessel Chinese fleet  on my current project. It was on advisement/steered by three separate national health organisations and pretty fucking thorough. TBH i’m fed up of the coronavirus

In the last 21 years i’ve managed disease outbreaks in many captive working populations, including UK military, Yemeni army, Syrian oilfield workers, UK FCO consular populations, UN workers in Afghanistan,  local cholera and amoebic dysentery misery in various African countries.  I have collected the shit samples of 50 third world caterers and convinced security teams to risk driving through insanely dangerous places to get shit to a clinic for testing. I’ve put 800 men on a diet of dried biscuits and water for a week in Chad  to counter a crippling food poisoning carnival
My favourite client pleaser is dropping respiratory tract infection reporting dramatically in projects after international crew changes, with simple but effective measures, a problem that dogs the industry
I only stopped humping the Oxford book of tropical medicine around the world when I realised I could put a copy on my iPad

I’ve even been on the other side, long stays in foreign hospitals with fevers of unknown origin (viral) that have taken me to the edge of organ failure and i’ve had to manage post exposure prophylaxis for my team who put themselves in direct risk of infection to save lives and help them and their families process the consequences

.......
However the guy moaning like fuck About the U.K. government not putting a private jet on for him is still a fucking dick


----------



## Humberto (Feb 22, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> All of the above
> please find my “tears in the rain C-beams infectious diseases version monologue” below
> 
> I’m employed by a national company and  literally get paid to be involved  in drafting and signing off on the corporate policies, procedures and protocols to mitigate risk of corona virus on the 25 vessel Chinese fleet  on my current project. It was on advisement/steered by three separate national health organisations and pretty fucking thorough. TBH i’m fed up of the coronavirus
> ...



liked for the adventurousness


----------



## elbows (Feb 22, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> it’s a boat stuffed to the gills with old people socialising sharing eating facilities. The Half dozen to near on 650 cases infected in two weeks is likely to be a lag in the testing and diagnostic process, they were likely all exposed from day one patient one So your “soaring infection rate” is actually natural progression in two weeks (14 days... ring any bells)



It is not safe to assume everyone was exposed on day one, rather than some being exposed later, including during the quarantine period. Especially when phenomenon such as a quarantine officer getting infected was observed.

Unfortunately it was no surprise to me that Japan carried on rigidly with the 14 day timing, and did not consider anything that happened over that period to be worthy of resetting the timer or some other major change in approach. Combined with questions about the amount of false negatives that tests may be experiencing with this virus, and its no surprise that after the 14 days we've end up with things like a boat passenger destined for Israel testing negative when departing Japan and positive (provisionally) when back in Israel.



> In an almost perfect social and physical environment for the spread of a virus and a population exposed who are likely least able to fight it, only two deaths of 84/87 year old is pretty amazing



Much like the lag you mention with testing and diagnostics, there is also a lag in regards to cases dying, so deaths from the boat so far doesnt mean all that much to me at this moment.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 22, 2020)

Riga is meant to be gorgeous


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 22, 2020)

elbows said:


> It is not safe to assume everyone was exposed on day one, rather than some being exposed later, including during the quarantine period. Especially when phenomenon such



It seems an odd assumption for bellaozzydog to make, as in most cases the incubation period is around 5 days and only in rare cases up to 14 days, which is why Hui-ling Yen, an expert from the University of Hong Kong, explained in this article from over a week ago - “This few days should have been the peak. Most of the literature about the virus reported that the mean incubation period is around 5 days. So if the quarantine works, we should start to see a decline soon,” Yen adds.

There was just over 200 cases at that point, about a week into quarantine, and that tripled in the week after, which is petty good evidence that it was spreading during the quarantine period, especially as several experts have raised questions and/or criticised quarantine lapses on the ship, here's one of many...



> A Japanese expert on infectious diseases was ejected from the locked down Diamond Princess cruise ship in Yokohama this week after raising questions about quarantine lapses amid mounting criticism of the government's handling of the coronavirus crisis on board.
> 
> In a damning expose on YouTube, Kentaro Iwata, an infectious diseases professor at Kobe University, said he had been asked to leave after expressing concerns about "chaotic" scenes that could help spread the Covid-19 virus.
> 
> ...



Even the National Institute of Infectious Diseases in Tokyo admits it continued to spread after the ship was put into quarantine status...



> Most of the infected passengers developed symptoms between 6to 9 February, the institute said, while most crew members first showed symptoms from 10 February onwards.
> 
> While passengers were confined to their cabins, apart from brief, restricted periods on deck, members of the ship’s staff continued to prepare meals and perform other work duties, thereby allowing the virus to spread to colleagues and passengers.
> 
> ...


----------



## maomao (Feb 22, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Riga is meant to be gorgeous


I once had a supervisor from Riga when I worked in a warehouse sixteen years ago. He was a prick and insisted on listening to Depeche Mode all day every day.


----------



## High Voltage (Feb 22, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> All of the above
> please find my “tears in the rain C-beams infectious diseases version monologue” below
> 
> I’m currently employed by a national company and  literally just got paid to be involved  in drafting and signing off on the corporate policies, procedures and protocols to mitigate risk of corona virus on the 25 vessel Chinese fleet  on my current project. It was on advisement/steered by three separate national health organisations and pretty fucking thorough. TBH i’m fed up of the coronavirus
> ...




Phffffhhh! "Facts" 😒


😏


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 22, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> All of the above
> please find my “tears in the rain C-beams infectious diseases version monologue” below
> 
> I’m currently employed by a national company and  literally just got paid to be involved  in drafting and signing off on the corporate policies, procedures and protocols to mitigate risk of corona virus on the 25 vessel Chinese fleet  on my current project. It was on advisement/steered by three separate national health organisations and pretty fucking thorough. TBH i’m fed up of the coronavirus
> ...



It is February 2020, we are three weeks in to Brexit. And you present yourself as an ‘expert’, huh


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 22, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It is February 2020, we are three weeks in to Brexit. And you present yourself as an ‘expert’, huh



With the coronavirus outbreak, it seems like a lot of experts are admitting that they're not entirely sure what is happening or what will happen next, not making confident assertions, belittling their critics, and boasting about their CVs.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 22, 2020)

Why are you bells posting about coronavirus on a Brexit thread? 

This thread is for chucking around veiled slurs of racism and posting ill-informed, biased, agenda pieces, masquerading as news articles.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 22, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> With the coronavirus outbreak, it seems like a lot of experts are admitting that they're not entirely sure what is happening or what will happen next, not making confident assertions, belittling their critics, and boasting about their CVs.



  That’s what a bottle of cheap red wine doe to me

i was countering The “confident assertions“ of a small number of urban posters, who were making bold statements which didn’t seem logical and did not fit the facts.

i  was belittling a single critic, the old bloke as to me he represented an example of the blustering Brit abroad full of self importance and expecting his gvt to treat him with a level of importance way above foreigners which is deluded

That wasn’t boasting about my CV that was a few examples of my practical experiences of managing health outbreaks and in particular quarantine procedures, and my current role which gives me an insight in to infection control on marine vessels, with posters calling me stupid , a cunt, dog heart (wtf) etc  I thought I’d defend my position a bit, I’m not an epidemiologist, but it would seem urban Is full of them, all having graduated from the World War Z school of tropical medicine 
Never having had a proper job my CV is full of mad shit, one day I’ll write a book about it and send you a copy in the mean time I apologise for offending anyone and will keep off urban
1. When I’m drunk
2. On Friday nights when everyone else is drunk


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 22, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> That’s what a bottle of cheap red wine doe to me
> 
> i was countering The “confident assertions“ of a small number of urban posters, who were making bold statements which didn’t seem logical and did not fit the facts.
> 
> ...


Are you a doctor then, Bella?


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 22, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Are you a doctor then, Bella?



No, just an ex military medic and HSE bloke working remote areas. The best description of the role when I’m medic‘ing would be Prescribing Paramedic working under licence from a doctor (I’m not a uk reg Paramedic either despite holding all the relevant quals and having to crack regular CPD) . I’m not involved with hands on patients any more my job is to assess contractors remote medical services and responses and companies overall health and safety shit


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> Never having had a proper job my CV is full of mad shit, one day I’ll write a book about it and send you a copy


nothing gets Spymaster's pulse racing faster than a book about cvs


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 22, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> i was countering The “confident assertions“ of a small number of urban posters, who were making bold statements which didn’t seem logical and did not fit the facts.



You mean the “confident assertions" based on reports from professors & other experts from Universities & the National Institute of Infectious Diseases in Tokyo, some of which have actually been on the cruise ship? And, that their statements don't seem logical you, and don't fit the facts according to you? 

Okey dokey.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Feb 22, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> You mean the “confident assertions" based on reports from professors & other experts from Universities & the National Institute of Infectious Diseases in Tokyo, some of which have actually been on the cruise ship? And, that their statements don't seem logical you, and don't fit the facts according to you?
> 
> Okey dokey.



I’ve moved on, have you go shopping or something


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 22, 2020)

Can we stop talking about fucking coronavirus on here please, especially as I've got a slight cold?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Can we stop talking about fucking coronavirus on here please, especially as I've got a slight cold?


Yep. I've got the old running tap nose and hacking cough...so I've decided to put off some things this weekend because I didn't want people to worry I'd come back from a cruise or summat.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 22, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Can we stop talking about fucking coronavirus on here please, especially as I've got a slight cold?





do i need to be wearing a mask to use urban?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> do i need to be wearing a mask to use urban?


no, but it helps


----------



## Big Bertha (Feb 22, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> do i need to be wearing a mask to use urban?


I always glove up first


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 22, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Can we stop talking about fucking coronavirus on here please, especially as I've got a slight cold?



Yeah, me too.

Did it go through your mind even for a millisecond that you could have Coronavirus?  I did, even though a remote possibility - probably because in my work I come into contact with a high number of people on a daily basis.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yeah, me too.
> 
> Did it go through your mind even for a millisecond that you could have Coronavirus?  I did, even though a remote possibility - probably because in my work I come into contact with a high number of people on a daily basis.


((((people))))


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> Yes, without the blue passports.
> 
> Because everything is that black and white.


Including the "blue" passports, which are of course far more black than blue...as they always were:


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 22, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Including the "blue" passports, which are of course far more black than blue...as they always were:
> 
> View attachment 199443



Interesting fact. They were often black and sometimes dark blue. Because back before anybody gave a flying fuck about any of this, nobody ever settled on a pantone. So it was just down to whatever colour ink the passport office had at the time. The colours being agreed upon in 1921 by The League Of Nations. A foreign authority.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> Interesting fact. They were often black and sometimes dark blue. Because back before anybody gave a flying fuck about any of this, nobody ever settled on a pantone. So it was just down to whatever colour ink the passport office had at the time. The colours being agreed upon in 1921 by The League Of Nations. A foreign authority.


Never had a blue one, though!


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2020)

Fabulous stupidity









						WATCH: Brexiteer tries to blame EU for recent floods
					

A Brexiteer on Question Time has tried to blame the European Union for recent flooding in the UK.




					www.theneweuropean.co.uk


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 22, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> The colours being agreed upon in 1921 by The League Of Nations. *A foreign authority.*



Aww, bless you, you love foreign entities making decisions on behalf of sovereign nations don’t you.

So progressive.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 22, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Aww, bless you, you love foreign entities making decisions on behalf of sovereign nations don’t you.
> 
> So progressive.



Well done on missing the point by a country mile.

To reiterate. This new ‘blue’ passport is based even more on a multilateral decision making body than the burgundy ‘EU’ passports ever were. So contemplate that in your ‘sovereign’ decision making logic.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Aww, bless you, you love foreign entities making decisions on behalf of sovereign nations don’t you.
> 
> So progressive.


Neither the LN or EU can properly be described as foreign authorities or entities as the UK was a member state and treaty signatory of both.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Aww, bless you, you love foreign entities making decisions on behalf of sovereign nations don’t you.
> 
> So progressive.


the league of nations' most conspicuous and lasting success came with the agreement of internationally recognised road signs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Neither the LN or EU can properly be described as foreign authorities or entities as the UK was a member state and treaty signatory of both.


iwtmta


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 22, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Neither the LN or EU can properly be described as foreign authorities or entities as the UK was a member state and treaty signatory of both.



Regardless, if we’re going down the logic that this ‘new’ passport colour is somehow some great sovereign decision, then it is no more so (in fact even less so) than the colour they’re switching from.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> Regardless, if we’re going down the logic that this ‘new’ passport colour is somehow some great sovereign decision, then it is no more so (in fact even less so) than the colour they’re switching from.


Well, are "we"?
Seems like very trivial, distractionary bollux to me.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 22, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Well, are "we"?
> Seems like very trivial, distractionary bollux to me.



much like the passports


----------



## andysays (Feb 22, 2020)

editor said:


> Fabulous stupidity
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you been keeping count of how many individual Brexiteers have said or done stupid things since the referendum?

Just wondering how many more need to be caught out in this way before the original decision gets reversed


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 22, 2020)

If anyone else posts stuff like that without comment they get badgered to fuck.


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> do i need to be wearing a mask to use urban?


No, just avoid the rest of the Internet for two weeks


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2020)

andysays said:


> Have you been keeping count of how many individual Brexiteers have said or done stupid things since the referendum?
> 
> Just wondering how many more need to be caught out in this way before the original decision gets reversed


Oh come on. It's as funny as fuck. Live on TV. Real stupidity.


----------



## andysays (Feb 22, 2020)

editor said:


> Oh come on. It's as funny as fuck. Live on TV. Real stupidity.


See, there are some positives to Brexit after all


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2020)

andysays said:


> Have you been keeping count of how many individual Brexiteers have said or done stupid things since the referendum?
> 
> Just wondering how many more need to be caught out in this way before the original decision gets reversed



I"ll see your stupid Brexiteers and raise you an Anna Soubry and Chuka Umanu


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2020)

gosub said:


> I"ll see your stupid Brexiteers and raise you an Anna Soubry and Chuka Umanu


It's a different party every week with Chuka!


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 22, 2020)

and I'll throw in this equally absurd gem .............


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 22, 2020)




----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> and I'll throw in this equally absurd gem .............
> 
> View attachment 199452


Showing that at least one law remains completely unchanged whether the U.K. is in the suprastate or not.


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2020)

twitter is great, you don't have to go looking for dickheads now: just load it up and there's a wall of the cunts, of every shade.


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Showing that at least one law remains completely unchanged whether the U.K. is in the suprastate or not.



Ignoring the obvious Godwin, had to look the bloke up he, s a psychology professor - How the fuck did he get that bit of paper without covering Asch and all the other 50s conformity experiments that proved  Germans  in Nazi Germany weren't atypical?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 22, 2020)

gosub said:


> Ignoring the obvious Godwin, had to look the bloke up he, s a psychology professor - How the fuck did he get that bit of paper without covering Asch and all the other 50s conformity experiments that proved  Germans  in Nazi Germany weren't atypical?


There are loads of criticisms of those studies, tbf, which are nowhere near as clear-cut as some try to represent them. Not sure what relevance they have for people voting for Hitler, though.


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2020)

killer b said:


> twitter is great, you don't have to go looking for dickheads now: just load it up and there's a wall of the cunts, of every shade.


A bit like Question Time these days.


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are loads of criticisms of those studies, tbf, which are nowhere near as clear-cut as some try to represent them. Not sure what relevance they have for people voting for Hitler, though.



Cox Asch was trying to prove the Germans were different and it wouldnt have happened elsewhere and end of up proving the exact opposite that in the main cultural differences  of nationality were were minimal (unless you were French)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 22, 2020)

gosub said:


> Cox Asch was trying to prove the Germans were different and it wouldnt have happened elsewhere and end of up proving the exact opposite that in the main cultural differences  of nationality were were minimal (unless you were French)


Ah ok my mistake then. Different asch studies from the ones I was thinking of. I was thinking of the length of a line ones. Fair enough.


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ah ok my mistake then. Different asch studies from the ones I was thinking of. I was thinking of the length of a line ones. Fair enough.



Same bloke same study a shed load of lying stooges and one subject. Years since I did A level and I'll have to dig out my copy of Gross but I'm pretty sure I'm remembering the underlying motivation of the experiment correctly And I do remember it was the French that came out as marginally more indiviualistic (which means it didn't come up in a Friday afternoon lesson - I, and the rest of the class must have  been sober)


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 22, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> All of the above
> please find my “tears in the rain C-beams infectious diseases version monologue” below
> 
> I’m currently employed by a national company and  literally just got paid to be involved  in drafting and signing off on the corporate policies, procedures and protocols to mitigate risk of corona virus on the 25 vessel Chinese fleet  on my current project. It was on advisement/steered by three separate national health organisations and pretty fucking thorough. TBH i’m fed up of the coronavirus
> ...



Fair play, this was a comprehensive lesson in how to artfully pull rank. If this was twitter there would be stuff about calling the police to report a murder and people being bodied.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 22, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Why are you bells posting about coronavirus on a Brexit thread?
> 
> This thread is for chucking around veiled slurs of racism and posting ill-informed, biased, agenda pieces, masquerading as news articles.


Yes, these are our core values!


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 22, 2020)




----------



## Raheem (Feb 22, 2020)

The39thStep said:


>



I believe it's customary to say: _But what do you think_?


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 23, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yeah, me too.
> 
> Did it go through your mind even for a millisecond that you could have Coronavirus?  I did, even though a remote possibility - probably because in my work I come into contact with a high number of people on a daily basis.



Are there many confirmed cases in your area?


----------



## Part-timah (Feb 23, 2020)




----------



## tommers (Feb 23, 2020)

Part-timah said:


> View attachment 199531


From where? Looks like they're already in Britain.


----------



## Part-timah (Feb 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> From where? Looks like they're already in Britain.



Nah, turning up Britishness up to 11 is common when conservatives go abroad.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 23, 2020)

Part-timah said:


> Nah, turning up Britishness up to 11 is common when conservatives go abroad.



especially when they have gone to live abroad because they don't want to live in england any more because of "all those immigrants, they don't want to integrate"


----------



## two sheds (Feb 23, 2020)

yep looks like an Ex-pats club, and they're renowned (in the Netherlands at least) for not learning the language.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2020)

bound to be a joke post about the double standards


----------



## JimW (Feb 23, 2020)

"City of Preston News Network".


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2020)

ska invita said:


> bound to be a joke post about the double standards



Yup


----------



## JimW (Feb 23, 2020)

Looks like they'd be fine on a pints-based system, mind.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 23, 2020)

As well as being a spoof article, not even sure that photo was taken in an ex pat bar. Rangers badge on poster behind them.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 23, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> As well as being a spoof article, not even sure that photo was taken in an ex pat bar. Rangers badge on poster behind them.



Does it fit the remoaner narrative?

Old white people - check.

Union Jack - check

Implied stupidity- check

Bingo!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 23, 2020)

Old white people are the real victims here.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 23, 2020)

I love how the fact noone actually knows these two people's views, or how they voted in the referendum, and yet nevertheless they seemingly deserve to be the object of remainer ire.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2020)

Looks like a hun hole


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2020)

The spoof FB piece used this (Getty) picture from a 2017 'Economist' piece...so likely to be genuine expats in Spain, but as the article is £walled I it's difficult to say if the they were L or R voters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2020)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I love how the fact noone actually knows these two people's views, or how they voted in the referendum, and yet nevertheless they seemingly deserve to be the object of remainer ire.


Anyone sitting in a hun-friendly bar deserves obloquy


----------



## A380 (Feb 23, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Every single stag night I have been on (including my own) has followed pretty much the same pattern,a pub crawl around Nantwich.


You should put this on a tee shirt.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 23, 2020)

Is there any polling showing british ex pats in spain, portugal etc mainly voted leave anyway or is it just a trope?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is there any polling showing british ex pats in spain, portugal etc mainly voted leave anyway or is it just a trope?


No ex pats were given a vote, there was quite a fuss about it at the time


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 23, 2020)

But there 'gammons', so who cares, right?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is there any polling showing british ex pats in spain, portugal etc mainly voted leave anyway or is it just a trope?


ES source, I'm afraid:



No idea about the validity of the survey, though:


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> No ex pats were given a vote, there was quite a fuss about it at the time


That was the 15 year residency rule; it excluded about 700k apparently.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 23, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> No ex pats were given a vote, there was quite a fuss about it at the time



Yeah I remember that, was only those who lived exclusively overseas for 15+ years though wasn't it. 

Anyway I can't find any post ref polling or analysis but I did find an FT thing from just before election which said 3 in 4 ex pats would vote remain, which makes sense really. Gibraltar had largest remain vote share overall I think.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah I remember that, was only those who lived exclusively overseas for 15+ years though wasn't it.
> 
> Anyway I can't find any post ref polling or analysis but I did find an FT thing from just before election which said 3 in 4 ex pats would vote remain, which makes sense really. Gibraltar had largest remain vote share overall I think.


Yeh cos they didn't want to be fucked by the Spanish but now they're going to be fucked by the Spanish


----------



## editor (Feb 23, 2020)

Silly Dave



> But Dave, who bought his Spanish holiday home after voting to leave, no longer wants to..











						Brexiteer Brits living in Spain just realised something about the end to free movement
					

While it might be sunny in Spain, things are not looking so great over in the UK, especially considering the fast-approaching Brexit deadline. But it seems like a group of Leave Voters, who have settled down in the southern European country, are only just starting to realise this, as the...



					www.indy100.com


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2020)

I suspect that the "ex-pat Leave voter" vox pop pieces on UK TV news were fairly easily assembled by production teams focusing in on particular bars at particular times.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 23, 2020)

Do these ex pats think that an end to freedom of movement means no more traveling then? Like we're all going to be permanently stuck in ther UK forever?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Do these ex pats think that an end to freedom of movement means no more traveling then? Like we're all going to be permanently stuck in ther UK forever?


I think, based on interviews given, their concerns are more centred on any possible tit-for-tat, retaliatory points-based immigration schemes, their access to health-care and pensions problems and the like.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is there any polling showing british ex pats in spain, portugal etc mainly voted leave anyway or is it just a trope?


Think it’s quite hard to actually define ex pats ie there are those whose main or only property is abroad and who are resident in the country where they live , there are those that have properties in both UK  and abroad , there are those that work abroad , there are also those that have either joint citizenship or citizenship in an EU country . 
In my experience ( from Spain my mother lived there for years and Portugal)  far from being the stereotyped Conservative/UKIP leavers who apparently left the UK on the grounds they don’t like immigrants they are a mixed bunch . I’ve met some right twats but also Labour supporters , ex miners , train drivers health workers , a couple of ex CP members, a rather excitable bloke who was into anarchism and a couple who were in the SWP. There’s a lot of ‘expat’ remain forums and lobby groups . Labour/ Tories/ LibDems all canvassed the expat areas in the 80s and 90s.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> ES source, I'm afraid:
> 
> View attachment 199568
> 
> ...


'This isn't the Brexit that I didn't vote for'.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 23, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> If anyone else posts stuff like that without comment they get badgered to fuck.


Its true.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2020)

The other thing is that there’s no reason why ex pats should be anymore in the know that people in the U.K. What some of those ghastly anti working class box pop articles on Brits abroad fail to grasp is that some of the comments made by ex pats re Spain/Portugal and other EU states valuing the Brits is that they are absolutely right , they do and will implement measures to ensure that not only can they stay but hope to attract more .
Always found it strange that continuity remainers who go on about the right to live/ work abroad ( but rarely do) then go out an attack those who are living and working abroad on the grounds they aren’t the right people to do so.


----------



## elbows (Feb 25, 2020)

Wilf said:


> 'This isn't the Brexit that I didn't vote for'.



I cant believe it isnt what he didnt say it wasnt.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 25, 2020)

two sheds said:


> yep looks like an Ex-pats club, and they're renowned (in the Netherlands at least) for not learning the language.



Same as the a lot of the Dutch in Portugal , Dutch bars , Dutch supermarkets


brogdale said:


> ES source, I'm afraid:
> 
> View attachment 199568
> 
> ...


There were a few other polls , albeit with very small samples that showed a similar % majority, At the time of the referendum it was estimated that only 1.4 million of the 4.9 million British citizens of voting age who lived overseas were eligible to vote in UK elections because of the 15-year rule .Ironically for the 'any migrant but British ' Remainers on social media if the 15 year rule had been abolished at the time the 'ex pats' might have swung the referendum in their favour.

The Tories today announced that they will scrap the 15 year rule. The bloke in who has been leading a campaign for this is a  97 year old Labour Party member who lives in Italy. When he wrote to the Labour Party they replied that “Abolishing the 15-year rule would completely overstretch electoral administrators who have described the sector as ‘pushed to the limit’,”


----------



## editor (Mar 3, 2020)

To the surprise of absolutely no-one: 



> *Brexit making far-right ideas mainstream, major report finds*
> 
> Brexit is causing far-right views on immigration and identity to be drawn into the mainstream, a report has warned.
> Research by Hope Not Hate found that Britain’s departure from the EU has fuelled discussions of loyalty, elitism and patriotism, “drawing people who might have otherwise have been attracted to the far right back into the mainstream right”.
> ...











						Brexit making far-right ideas mainstream, major report finds
					

'Cordon sanitaire' keeping far-right discourse out of mainstream politics has collapsed, Hope Not Hate says




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Read the report here https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/fear-and-hope-report-2019-07-final-1.pdf


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> To the surprise of absolutely no-one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you read beyond the headline. Like actually read that report?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> To the surprise of absolutely no-one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


tbh a look at the first few words of the report and who wrote it are sufficient to start questions popping into one's mind.


the authors both work at hnh. one is the boss. the other a senior policy officer.


they commissioned this report? my understanding of 'commissioned' is someone being sought out to do something, not for an organisation's personnel to do what they were paid for.

i am not commissioned to answer library users' queries. it's my job.

they have commissioned polls

so one question i'm left pondering is, to what extent is this the report the work of the pollsters, who were actually commissioned to do something, and to what extent it is the work of lowles and carter?


----------



## souljacker (Mar 4, 2020)

> Research by Hope Not Hate found that Britain’s departure from the EU has fuelled discussions of loyalty, elitism and patriotism, “drawing people who might have otherwise have been attracted to the far right back into the mainstream right”.



This is surely a good thing isn't it? Still not great but better than people being attracted to the far right?

I'd also argue that this isn't just a brexit thing and can be accredited to other factors like Trump and rise of social media giving voices to racist nobheads.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 4, 2020)

Is this what this thread is for now then; just posting random, unqualified headlines that vaguely suit our prejudices? I've always thought that was against the FAQs and have seen posters warned for doing it on many occasions.

Is this thread exempt from the rules? If so can we all do it?


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh a look at the first few words of the report and who wrote it are sufficient to start questions popping into one's mind.
> 
> View attachment 200532
> the authors both work at hnh. one is the boss. the other a senior policy officer.
> ...


I don't think they filled in all the questions in the survey themselves.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Did you read beyond the headline. Like actually read that report?


Why yes I did. How about you? Or are you about to go into some weird denial that Brexit hasn't led to a rise in xenophobic/racist incidents?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> I don't think they filled in all the questions in the survey themselves.


that's good


----------



## kabbes (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Why yes I did. How about you? Or are you about to go into some weird denial that Brexit hasn't led to a rise in xenophobic/racist incidents?


The article doesn’t say that Brexit has led to a rise in xenophobia or racist incidents, regardless of whether this is true or not.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> The article doesn’t say that Brexit has led to a rise in xenophobia or racist incidents, regardless of whether this is true or not.


The two aren't connected? OK, if you say so.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 4, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Is this thread exempt from the rules? If so can we all do it?



All threads are exempt from the rules.
No, you can't do it.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> I don't think they filled in all the questions in the survey themselves.


Are you aware of the background of Hope Not Hate?


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Are you aware of the background of Hope Not Hate?


Yes, but it might be easier if you just delivered your Big Point.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> The two aren't connected? OK, if you say so.


Whether or not the two are connected is a subject worthy of debate, not something that can be just inferred from a drop-and-run posting of a headline.  The report referenced in the article actually implies the opposite, for what it’s worth, suggesting that a more central ground has recaptured those who previously might have been engaging in aggression, thus acting potentially to reduce xenophobic incidents.   Whether or not I agree with that is a sidebar — it’s _your_ link I’m summarising.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 4, 2020)

I wish people would have the fucking stones to just come out and blame racism on Yes voters like they want to


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I wish people would have the fucking stones to just come out and blame racism on Yes voters like they want to


I don't blame all yes voters for racism because that would be stupid.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> I don't blame all yes voters for racism because that would be stupid.


What percentage of them do you blame?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Why yes I did. How about you? Or are you about to go into some weird denial that Brexit hasn't led to a rise in xenophobic/racist incidents?


I did read it and asked if you had because of the disconnect between the article and the headline. 
I'm always a bit meh about Nick Lowles writings. Immediately start asking what is his agenda.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 4, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I wish people would have the fucking stones to just come out and blame racism on Yes voters like they want to



Yes is remain, no?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Yes, but it might be easier if you just delivered your Big Point.


I was interested in knowing if you were aware of the background of HnH. EDIT: It was a genuine question, I've previously wrongly assumed people are aware of HnH's background. 

Let's remember HnH are a liberal state-sponsored "anti-extremist" organisation. One whose ancestry includes giving the names of left wing activists to spooks and attacking groups such as the IWCA. While a source of a report doesn't necessarily invalidate it's conclusions Pickman's model is absolutely correct that seeing this report is from HnH should flag up warning signs for anyone with class based politics.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> What percentage of them do you blame?


Some of them. How about you?


----------



## kabbes (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Some of them. How about you?


“Some of them” is a majority or a minority?


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> “Some of them” is a majority or a minority?


I haven't conducted a poll so can't possibly know. How about you? What do you think?


----------



## kabbes (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> I haven't conducted a poll so can't possibly know. How about you? What do you think?


I’m not the one connecting the fact that people voted Brexit to a rise in xenophobic incidents.  What is your point of identifying this putative connection if it is not to suggest that those who voted that way are at fault for the rise?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Yes is remain, no?


No


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 4, 2020)

TopCat said:


> No



So confused! 

Anyways, it seems that each side is blaming the other. And it's a tough one to call, for sure. Which side will own it in the end?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

Tbh all stuff like this tells me is what absolute fucking lunacy it was for (most of) the left to abandon leaving the EU to the right


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I’m not the one connecting the fact that people voted Brexit to a rise in xenophobic incidents.  What is your point of identifying this putative connection if it is not to suggest that those who voted that way are at fault for the rise?


Perhaps you missed this: 








						Brexit is strongly linked to xenophobia, according to scientists
					

‘I think the Leave campaign gave a new, acceptable way to express xenophobia’




					www.independent.co.uk
				











						UK has seen 'Brexit-related' growth in racism, says UN representative
					

UN special rapporteur on racism says ‘extreme views’ have gained ground in Britain since vote




					www.theguardian.com
				











						Xenophobic bullying souring lives of eastern European pupils in UK
					

Study finds children in England and Scotland experiencing rising prejudice since Brexit vote




					www.theguardian.com
				











						Hate crime did spike after the referendum – even allowing for other factors
					

Did hate crime spike after the referendum? While there is no doubt the number of reported crimes increased, they are always more frequent in June and July and after other significant events, like t…




					blogs.lse.ac.uk
				




etc etc


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> So confused!
> 
> Anyways, it seems that each side is blaming the other. And it's a tough one to call, for sure. Which side will own it in the end?


It's going to be a shitshow for years and years, and my guess is that the rich will keep on getting richer and the poor will get on getting poorer.  Fuck knows how much all this has cost so far.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> It's going to be a shithsow for years and years, and my guess is that the rich will keep on getting richer and the poor will get on getting poorer.  Fuck knows how much all this has cost so far.



No real change, then. Meanwhile the country (and urban) will continue to tear themselves apart. Sigh.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Perhaps you missed this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not relevant what I missed or didn't miss.  I'm asking you this: what is the point you are making by posting these articles, if _not _to suggest that a vote for Brexit is at fault for the rise of xenophobic incidents?  I mean, you must have a view on it.  You are posting these articles on a regular basis, which implies you have a _strong_ view on it, at that.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It's not relevant what I missed or didn't miss.  I'm asking you this: what is the point you are making by posting these articles, if _not _to suggest that a vote for Brexit is at fault for the rise of xenophobic incidents?  I mean, you must have a view on it.  You are posting these articles on a regular basis, which implies you have a _strong_ view on it, at that.



Isn't it more important to identify the reasons why racism is on the increase, rather than which group of voters may or may not have (inadvertently or deliberately) have possibly contributed to its rise?


----------



## kabbes (Mar 4, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Isn't it more important to identify the reasons why racism is on the increase, rather than which group of voters may or may not have (inadvertently or deliberately) have possibly contributed to its rise?


Yes it is.  Why are you addressing this question to me?  Editor is the one repeatedly posting links about the rise in racism on threads about the Brexit vote, not me.  I would much rather be talking about the underlying reasons for the rise, rather than what I see as just one reaction to it.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It's not relevant what I missed or didn't miss.  I'm asking you this: what is the point you are making by posting these articles, if _not _to suggest that a vote for Brexit is at fault for the rise of xenophobic incidents?  I mean, you must have a view on it.  You are posting these articles on a regular basis, which implies you have a _strong_ view on it, at that.


I'm suggesting that Brexit has contributed to a rise in xenophobia - an opinion those links seem to clearly support - and it depresses the fuck out of me, and I think it's going to get worse. How about you? Do you actually have any opinions on this matter?


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Yes it is.  Why are you addressing this question to me?  Editor is the one repeatedly posting links about the rise in racism on threads about the Brexit vote, not me.  I would much rather be talking about the underlying reasons for the rise, rather than what I see as just one reaction to it.



Apologies, was just throwing it out there. Going to bail on this thread for now and leave it to the more knowledgeable.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm suggesting that Brexit has contributed to a rise in xenophobia - an opinion those links seem to clearly support - and it depresses the fuck out of me, and I think it's going to get worse. How about you? Do you actually have any opinions on this matter?


If Brexit has contributed to a rise in xenophobia, does it not follow that the rise in xenophobia can be at least partially blamed on those who voted for Brexit?


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> If Brexit has contributed to a rise in xenophobia, does it not follow that the rise in xenophobia can be at least partially blamed on those who voted for Brexit?


That is what the research that has been posted suggests, yes. I think it would be very strange to assume that no xenophobes voted for Brexit. But what do you think? Or have you turned into some sort of answer-swerving faux-Paxman?


----------



## andysays (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> I don't blame all yes voters for racism because that would be stupid.


If you're asserting that racism has got worse simply because of the fact that more people voted Leave than voted Remain, then the logic of that position is surely that all Leave voters are to blame, whether or not they are actually racist or their vote was motivated by racism.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

andysays said:


> If you're asserting that racism has got worse simply because of the fact that more people voted Leave than voted Remain, then the logic of that position is surely that all Leave voters are to blame, whether or not they are actually racist or their vote was motivated by racism.


Fantastic piece of twisting there. Olympic standard. How about you read the research I posted up and come back to me with something a little less dishonest?


----------



## kabbes (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> That is what the research that has been posted suggests, yes. I think it would be very strange to assume that no xenophobes voted for Brexit. But what do you think? Or have you turned into some sort of answer-swerving faux-Paxman?


I don't understand why you are obsessed with what I think about it.  What I think about it is irrelevant to this discussion.  You have repeatedly posted up a bunch of links about the rise in xenophobia on Brexit threads.  You, not me.  And then when it is suggested that this imples you are blaming Brexit voters for the rise in xenophobia, you refute thinking this.  Again: you, not me.  All I am trying to do is to get to the bottom of what point you are actually intending to make by posting up these headlines.  You, not me.  In amongst all this headline-posting made by you, it doesn't matter one whit what I think of any of it.

But I think we're there.  As above:



andysays said:


> If you're asserting that racism has got worse simply because of the fact that more people voted Leave than voted Remain, then the logic of that position is surely that all Leave voters are to blame, whether or not they are actually racist or their vote was motivated by racism.



This is the logic of you saying "That is what the research that has been posted suggests, yes" in response to me asking "If Brexit has contributed to a rise in xenophobia, does it not follow that the rise in xenophobia can be at least partially blamed on those who voted for Brexit?"


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> I was interested in knowing if you were aware of the background of HnH.
> 
> Let's remember HnH are a liberal state-sponsored "anti-extremist" organisation. One whose ancestry includes giving the names of left wing activists to spooks and attacking groups such as the IWCA. While a source of a report doesn't necessarily invalidate it's conclusions Pickman's model is absolutely correct that seeing this report is from HnH should flag up warning signs for anyone with class based politics.


Also they're on about how sophisticated their analysis is which makes an klaxon go off in my mind. Lots of charts but I'm always suspicious of publications which rely on pretty pictures


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I don't understand why you are obsessed with what I think about it.


Err,no. You repeatedly keep asking questions while refusing to offer an opinion of your own on the very same subject. It gets tiresome after a while, so I can't be arsed anymore.  


kabbes said:


> But I think we're there.


"We're"?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 4, 2020)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> But there 'gammons', so who cares, right?


"They're"


----------



## kabbes (Mar 4, 2020)

Yes, we're there on the journey of trying to figure out what point you are making by posting up all these headlines about the rise in xenophobia.  It's exactly what people assumed in the first place -- you're blaming it at least partially on the vote for Brexit.  And this implicitly means you're blaming it at least partially on everybody who voted for Brexit.

If you're really insistent on what my opinion is on the whole matter -- I think the right has been weaponising nationalism and xenophobia for a long time now, and Brexit is a symptom of that process.  I don't think that the vote for Brexit _caused_ this xenophobia any more than I think people buying ice cream _causes_ hot weather.


----------



## andysays (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Fantastic piece of twisting there. Olympic standard. How about you read the research I posted up and come back to me with something a little less dishonest?


What, specifically, are you saying I've twisted?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 4, 2020)

Someone is drastically out of their depth on this thread


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm suggesting that Brexit has contributed to a rise in xenophobia - an opinion those links seem to clearly support - and it depresses the fuck out of me, and I think it's going to get worse. How about you? Do you actually have any opinions on this matter?


What, in this context, is brexit? You're talking like it's an event when it seems more like a process


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Someone is drastically out of their depth on this thread


Show me in the shallow water before I get too deep


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Yes it is.  Why are you addressing this question to me?  Editor is the one repeatedly posting links about the rise in racism on threads about the Brexit vote, not me.  I would much rather be talking about the underlying reasons for the rise, rather than what I see as just one reaction to it.


You're capable of a bit more sophistication than that, though, no? Brexit - including the whole gamut: the reasons the vote was called in the first place, the reasons the campaigns were fought as they were, the reasons leave won, the reasons politicians reacted to that result, and the reasons people voted Tory last year - is _both_ a consequence of _and_ a contributing cause of rises in particular forms of racism. It can't be separated out from everything else as either just a cause or just a reaction.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> It's going to be a shitshow for years and years, and my guess is that the rich will keep on getting richer and the poor will get on getting poorer.  Fuck knows how much all this has cost so far.


It was reported the other week, about £200bn


----------



## Wilf (Mar 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I think the right has been weaponising nationalism and xenophobia for a long time now, and Brexit is a symptom of that process.  I don't think that the vote for Brexit _caused_ this xenophobia any more than I think people buying ice cream _causes_ hot weather.


 This. Brexit is clearly important, a key symbolic issue, but _one that is symbolic of more than one thing_. Maybe even an effect that for some has intensified and focused the original causes and grievances, but still an effect.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I don't think that the vote for Brexit _caused_ this xenophobia any more than I think people buying ice cream _causes_ hot weather.


I totally disagree with that. It has very poor explanatory value in working out how and why things have happened since the vote. It is not a passive actor in the process. I don't want to drag him into this, but Reno on here gave Brexit and the rise in xenophobia as the motivating reason why he went back to Germany. That would be a more accurate analogy for 'buying ice cream in hot weather'.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 4, 2020)

What you're referring to, lbj, is the consequence of the way that the vote was reacted to, not the vote itself.  Politicians across the board immediately leapt on the vote as meaning no more free movement, restrictions on immigration and so on.  The left decided not to embrace Brexit and make a convincing case for Lexit, but instead to throw their lot in with Remain.  This created an atmosphere in which to be socially liberal was seen to be synonymous with being anti-Brexit.  The right was able to mop up, and as their momentum increased, those who were the opposite socially liberal felt more able to be heard.

None of that was because people voted Brexit, though.  It was because of what came next.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> What, in this context, is brexit? You're talking like it's an event when it seems more like a process


It's an ongoing process that started from the referendum vote.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> It was reported the other week, about £200bn


Worth it, do you think? I'm still not sure what great benefits we're all going to get out of this massive spending.


----------



## andysays (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> It's an ongoing process that started from the referendum vote.


This post appears to confirm that you are indeed fixing on the actual vote itself, disregarding much of the argument of the stuff you've quoted, which suggests that it was the way the campaign was conducted *by both sides *which led many people to view the result as necessarily being a victory for racism, and to branding everyone who voted Leave as motivated by racism.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

andysays said:


> This post appears to confirm that you are indeed fixing on the actual vote itself,


Nope. But whatevs.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 4, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Someone is drastically out of their depth on this thread


Why did I get a warning for this, and what does "you wouldn't let it lie" mean, please?

You're clearly reading my posts so I'd be grateful for an answer.

Thanks.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> ... gave Brexit and the rise in xenophobia as the motivating reason why he went back to Germany.





Proper Tidy said:


> Tbh all stuff like this tells me is what absolute fucking lunacy it was for (most of) the left to abandon leaving the EU to the right


----------



## strung out (Mar 4, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Why did I get a warning for this, and what does "you wouldn't let it lie" mean, please?
> 
> You're clearly reading my posts so I'd be grateful for an answer.
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> It's an ongoing process that started from the referendum vote.



Started from.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Why did I get a warning for this, and what does "you wouldn't let it lie" mean, please?
> 
> You're clearly reading my posts so I'd be grateful for an answer.
> 
> Thanks.


Seeing as you have requested clarification, this is my one post on the subject. If you wish to take it further, post in the feedback forum. If you continue posting in this thread about this topic, warnings will be given, in line with the site rules. If anyone else has an opinion, please refer to the feedback forum because I don't want this thread disrupted.

You know _exactly_ what mutual ignore means. It means do not quote, mention or reference posts/opinions by the other person.  Ever.

Mutual ignores are brought in as a last desperate measure when clashes between two posters turn toxic and/or constantly disrupt threads. But you seem to think this doesn't apply to you because you've been chipping away at this for weeks now, posting up endless digs across  multiple threads that clearly refer to me.

I've no idea why you persist in doing so because under the rules of this site, it will eventually lead to a ban, so I strongly suggest you wind it in. You are free to post about so many other topics, so it really can't be hard to stop responding to my posts. Thank you and goodbye.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Started from.


Sorry, I  meant from the announcement of the referendum and from thereon in.


----------



## andysays (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Sorry, I  meant from the announcement of the referendum and from thereon in.


Thank you for clarifying that. It clearly wasn't just me who misunderstood the point you were intending to make.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> That is what the research that has been posted suggests, yes. I think it would be very strange to assume that no xenophobes voted for Brexit. But what do you think? Or have you turned into some sort of answer-swerving faux-Paxman?



I think pre-existing xenophobia and racism has been emboldened by the Brexit vote, as opposed to it producing any feelings that weren't previously there.  I'm going by what friends have told me as opposed to any particular research (which I haven't read in detail) but some of them have had quite a depressing time, especially immediately following key votes/events.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Sorry, I  meant from the announcement of the referendum and from thereon in.


tbf I would include the lead-up to that and why the ref was called. Even back to Gordon Brown's 'British Jobs for British People' shite, the issue was already bubbling, while the Daily Express has been conducting a vicious, nakedly racist anti-immigrant campaign for at least the last 20 years. It then took specific conditions in the tory party for a ref to come around - despite the best efforts of the likes of the Daily Express, UKIP struggled to gain more than around 15 per cent of any national vote, but of course most of that 15 per cent came from the Tories, who were themselves historically divided on the topic. Even Cameron's majority in 2015 can be factored in - the coalition with the libs effectively ruled out any ref as long as it lasted. 

One point where I would disagree with kabbes regards the meaning that politicians took from the ref result, specifically the meaning that it meant ending free movement, a meaning that Labour accepted from the start. The reasons the politicians took that tack had to do with the reasons leave won. We can't deny that immigration was a major factor in the leave vote - and polls suggest that a majority of those voting leave did so motivated in large part by a desire to end free movement. Of course, most of 52 per cent is nowhere near a majority, but that didn't matter. Could things have played out differently? Perhaps yes, but perhaps it is very unlikely given that this was always on course to be a tory-led brexit in which the tories neutralise UKIP/Brexit Party by coopting their idea of what brexit should be. It wasn't a surprise that that happened.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

8ball said:


> I think pre-existing xenophobia and racism has been emboldened by the Brexit vote, as opposed to it producing any feelings that weren't previously there.  I'm going by what friends have told me as opposed to any particular research (which I haven't read in detail) but some of them have had quite a depressing time, especially immediately following key votes/events.


That's what I think too. Pre-existing xenophobia and racism was emboldened and amplified by the Brexit vote and with a populist cunt like Farage at the front, 'normalised' into the point where cunts on football terraces and in the street now think it's OK to shout out their vile politics.


----------



## andysays (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> That's what I think too. Pre-existing xenophobia and racism was emboldened and amplified by the Brexit vote and with a populist cunt like Farage at the front, 'normalised' itto the point where cunts on football terraces and in the street now think it's OK to shout out their vile politics.


And a significant part of why/how that happened is that many of those who benefited from Britain being in the EU dismissed the concerns of those who didn't benefit, but instead felt, rightly or wrongly, that e.g. free movement across the EU had undermined their position, as being thick racists. 

The victory of Brexit became a victory for racism etc almost by default


----------



## B.I.G (Mar 4, 2020)

andysays said:


> And a significant part of why/how that happened is that many of those who benefited from Britain being in the EU dismissed the concerns of those who didn't benefit, but instead felt, rightly or wrongly, that e.g. free movement across the EU had undermined their position, as being thick racists.
> 
> The victory of Brexit became a victory for racism etc almost by default



Undermined their position of preferring to live somewhere without those from another country.


----------



## andysays (Mar 4, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Undermined their position of preferring to live somewhere without those from another country.


Thank you for providing a perfect illustration of my point


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbf I would include the lead-up to that and why the ref was called. Even back to Gordon Brown's 'British Jobs for British People' shite, the issue was already bubbling, while the Daily Express has been conducting a vicious, nakedly racist anti-immigrant campaign for at least the last 20 years. It then took specific conditions in the tory party for a ref to come around - despite the best efforts of the likes of the Daily Express, UKIP struggled to gain more than around 15 per cent of any national vote, but of course most of that 15 per cent came from the Tories, who were themselves historically divided on the topic. Even Cameron's majority in 2015 can be factored in - the coalition with the libs effectively ruled out any ref as long as it lasted.



I've asked this before but why do you think similar scenarios are playing out across europe, in US etc.

Imo the crash is the point that should be examined, how that undermined neoliberalism and its political face of the socially liberal pro business blair/brown/cameron/osborne/merkel/clinton/obama ilk, how we are in a period of flux as something else replaces that undermined current. But that would mean also recognising how much the left has fucked it up by allowing itself to become associated with that political failure, allowing the right to capitalise and provide the alternative, which in turn has resulted in much of the left retreating to open defence of what came before in the face of a right wing insurgency. 

Btw ukip took 17% of vote in 2009 EU elections and 28% (largest party) in 2014, both post crash, both show the growth of euroscepticism over recent times. Worth also noting that while ukip always of right, not always anti immigration (they saw the opportunity) and in 2009 when the story really started for them they were basically a pro business libertarian party


----------



## B.I.G (Mar 4, 2020)

andysays said:


> Thank you for providing a perfect illustration of my point



Except you are the one playing pretend with others’ motives. Apart from the very special lexiteers most of the people voting for Brexit did it to reduce the number of foreign accents in their area. If they hadn’t wouldn’t people have complained about the brexit they are getting or not so heavily endorsed the racist tory brexit they are getting.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 4, 2020)

JimW said:


> Looks like they'd be fine on a pints-based system, mind.


Wouldn't we all, old chap, wouldn't we all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> It's an ongoing process that started from the referendum vote.


No, it started before that, it started with the repeated promises for a referendum on eu membership and the conjunction of forces which led to those premises. Starting where you suggest is like starting a history of WW2 on 3/9/1939


----------



## brogdale (Mar 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> No, it started before that, it started with the repeated promises for a referendum on eu membership and the conjunction of forces which led to those premises. Starting where you suggest is like starting a history of WW2 on 3/9/1939


Important to remember that right-wing, nationalistic/Atlanticist interests were organising and campaigning against the UK's involvement with the, then, EEC some 11 years before we actually joined in 1973.

e2a: as covered in this 2009 book (that I have not read)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 4, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I've asked this before but why do you think similar scenarios are playing out across europe, in US etc.
> 
> Imo the crash is the point that should be examined, how that undermined neoliberalism and its political face of the socially liberal pro business blair/brown/cameron/osborne/merkel/clinton/obama ilk, how we are in a period of flux as something else replaces that undermined current. But that would mean also recognising how much the left has fucked it up by allowing itself to become associated with that political failure, allowing the right to capitalise and provide the alternative, which in turn has resulted in much of the left retreating to open defence of what came before in the face of a right wing insurgency.
> 
> Btw ukip took 17% of vote in 2009 EU elections and 28% (largest party) in 2014, both post crash, both show the growth of euroscepticism over recent times. Worth also noting that while ukip always of right, not always anti immigration (they saw the opportunity) and in 2009 when the story really started for them they were basically a pro business libertarian party


I agree with you about the crash being a pivotal point, and imo it was a massive missed opportunity. 

Not sure you've asked your first question of me before, but my answer would be the same as the one I've been giving here for years - brexit is not a reaction to the rise in populist nationalism around the world; it is a manifestation of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Worth it, do you think? I'm still not sure what great benefits we're all going to get out of this massive spending.


It's not £200bn spent but £200bn lost


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree with you about the crash being a pivotal point, and imo it was a massive missed opportunity.
> 
> Not sure you've asked your first question of me before, but my answer would be the same as the one I've been giving here for years - brexit is not a reaction to the rise in populist nationalism around the world; it is a manifestation of it.



Well I don't really disagree as such, but I think the rise of the right - the 'manifestation of it' - has been because it has been the right that has recognised what came before is dead and what comes now must present itself as different, a break. So with brexit it was the failure of the left to identity what lay behind it and offer a challenge, an alternative, a break, that wasn't chauvinistic rather than brexit itself that has led us here.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 4, 2020)

B.I.G said:


> Except you are the one playing pretend with others’ motives. Apart from the very special lexiteers most of the people voting for Brexit did it to reduce the number of foreign accents in their area. If they hadn’t wouldn’t people have complained about the brexit they are getting or not so heavily endorsed the racist tory brexit they are getting.



Complain to who?  The Remoaner Smuglords?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

8ball said:


> Complain to who?  The Remoaner Smuglords?


They're playing glasto this year


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2020)

good thing no remainers hold far-right views


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 4, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> good thing no remainers hold far-right views


To busy praising the EU for keeping the migrants out of Greece


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 4, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Well I don't really disagree as such, but I think the rise of the right - the 'manifestation of it' - has been because it has been the right that has recognised what came before is dead and what comes now must present itself as different, a break. So with brexit it was the failure of the left to identity what lay behind it and offer a challenge, an alternative, a break, that wasn't chauvinistic rather than brexit itself that has led us here.


My position from the start has been a version of what has come to be known as 'radical remain'. To a large extent that was motivated by a negative - I feared exactly what has happened, essentially, the emboldening of nasty forces and a tory-led brexit that leads to only bad things. Despite agreeing with those who criticise the EU's neoliberal character, I am not in the camp of those who wish to see the EU crash and burn. Again, that is to a large extent due to a negative - I fear the r/w forces that would likely take control in the event of a collapse of the EU, I would see such a collapse as a genuine threat to peace. But not entirely negative - there are positives about EU membership, including free movement, but also the guarantees of certain rights, however imperfectly they may be enforced (and it will always be imperfect).  Plus international cooperation has to happen, and if not this way, there would need to be another - that leaves a question to be answered and a hole that could be filled with things a lot worse than the current EU.

Having said all the above, if there were a movement seeking to leave the EU and establish a new kind of European solidarity, such as that of Melenchon in France, I might well support it. I'm not wedded to the idea of the EU at all costs - that's part of the divisive 'you're a remainer or a leaver and that's that' binary - and something better would be great. But we're nowhere near that. In that sense, remainer/leaver misses the point - _this leave_ is the thing I specifically oppose.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 4, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Important to remember that right-wing, nationalistic/Atlanticist interests were organising and campaigning against the UK's involvement with the, then, EEC some 11 years before we actually joined in 1973.



Indeed, for example, 'The World Tomorrow' was a 'paid for' programme carried by various powerful European radio stations, including Radio Luxembourg & some of the 60's offshore pirate stations, presented by Garner Ted Armstrong of the American based 'Radio Church of God', and he preached against the UK getting involved in the EEC, plenty suspect the European airtime was actually paid for by the CIA.



> ---
> Yet it is the “Radio Luxembourg” and “Radio Caroline North”, “Radio 270”, “Radio Scotland”, “Radio 390” and “Wonderful Radio London” broadcasts that are most interesting because they represented the US interests in developing Europe as a single entity.
> ---
> Armstrong’s broadcasts and supporting literature had a history dating back to pre-WWII in which he warned that a United States of Europe would eventually defeat both the UK and USA with a person similar to Adolph Hitler as its leader. This is thoroughly documented in both the recordings of his broadcasts and his literature. In fact before WWII ended Armstrong thought that the USA would lose and when it actually won, he immediately began predicting that a USE would arise from the ashes and try again. His dire warnings predate even the earliest of the Benelux agreements for trade in iron, steel and coal.











						Herbert W. Armstrong. C.I.A. Agent
					

The Radio Church of God, later the Worldwide Church of God was not only a religion, it was a also a geo-political movement whose teachings were buried within a religious context.




					thepainfultruth.org


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2020)

‘The far right’ isn’t a monolith made up only of brexiteers and assadists. Nick Griffin and Sargon wanker for example diverge on a lot


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> To busy praising the EU for keeping the migrants out of Greece



Literally in the case of some of the activists I know


----------



## B.I.G (Mar 4, 2020)

8ball said:


> Complain to who?  The Remoaner Smuglords?



Their local tory MP they voted for.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 4, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> To busy praising the EU for keeping the migrants out of Greece




Free movement in action...


----------



## andysays (Mar 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> They're playing glasto this year


They've had to cancel their European tour though


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Free movement in action...
> 
> View attachment 200564


TBF the UK hardly stood four square in defence of migrants trying to cross the med or otherwise enter the eu while a member and should large numbers of people try to cross the Channel I would not be surprised if Johnson pushed a policy of let them drown. After all, the UK has punched above its weight once more in terms of the government's role in creating push factors for migration


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not £200bn spent but £200bn lost


So what have we got for the £200bn?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> So what have we got for the £200bn?


Boris johnson


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 4, 2020)

"we"

What


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

S☼I said:


> "we"
> 
> What


As in the _we the people_, whose money is being spent.  Or is the money coming from a magic Brexit moneytree I didn't hear about? Apols if that's the case.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> TBF the UK hardly stood four square in defence of migrants trying to cross the med or otherwise enter the eu while a member and should large numbers of people try to cross the Channel I would not be surprised if Johnson pushed a policy of let them drown. After all, the UK has punched above its weight once more in terms of the government's role in creating push factors for migration



Not sure anyone would suggest the UK is much better, though certainly it is a far more welcoming society than France, Hungary, Austria and so on and the UK has not taken to shooting at refugees in boats. When the Greeks were abusing the refugees earlier this week Bob Geldorf and his cohorts were very quiet about the free movement they love to bang on about though.


----------



## dessiato (Mar 4, 2020)

Apropos of posts earlier in the thread I've decided to apply for Spanish citizenship so as to be able to continue my freedom of movement within the EU and to be able to continue my lifestyle.

I'm currently studying for the exams.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 4, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Indeed, for example, 'The World Tomorrow' was a 'paid for' programme carried by various powerful European radio stations, including Radio Luxembourg & some of the 60's offshore pirate stations, presented by Garner Ted Armstrong of the American based 'Radio Church of God', and he preached against the UK getting involved in the EEC, plenty suspect the European airtime was actually paid for by the CIA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was early Caroline, right? (mid 1960s)
By the time I was listening its was all Loving Awareness tbh.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> As in the _we the people_, whose money is being spent.  Or is the money coming from a magic Brexit moneytree I didn't hear about? Apols if that's the case.


Magic moneytree though, in 2020


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Magic moneytree though, in 2020


I've absolutely no idea what your last two posts have been about, sorry.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 4, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That was early Caroline, right? (mid 1960s)



Yes, it was certainly carried by the Caroline north ship, off the Isle of Mann, up to the end in March 1968, but not by the south ship during the 60's, as Ronan o'Rahilly had resisted carrying it until forced into accepting it by shareholders, by which time coverage in the south was already provided by 'Wonderful Radio London' & 'Radio 390'.



> By the time I was listening its was all Loving Awareness tbh.



Same here.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 4, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not sure anyone would suggest the UK is much better, though certainly it is a far more welcoming society than France, Hungary, Austria and so on and the UK has not taken to shooting at refugees in boats. When the Greeks were abusing the refugees earlier this week Bob Geldorf and his cohorts were very quiet about the free movement they love to bang on about though.


By the standards set by various EU countries, the UK is below average, and well below France, wrt accepting refugees.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> TBF the UK hardly stood four square in defence of migrants trying to cross the med or otherwise enter the eu while a member and should large numbers of people try to cross the Channel I would not be surprised if Johnson pushed a policy of let them drown. After all, the UK has punched above its weight once more in terms of the government's role in creating push factors for migration





Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not sure anyone would suggest the UK is much better, though certainly it is a far more welcoming society than France, Hungary, Austria and so on and the UK has not taken to shooting at refugees in boats. When the Greeks were abusing the refugees earlier this week Bob Geldorf and his cohorts were very quiet about the free movement they love to bang on about though.



There’s some horrific footage of the Greeks using tear gas on children.The EU yesterday referred to Greece as ‘ their shield ‘


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 4, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> By the standards set by various EU countries, the UK is below average, and well below France, wrt accepting refugees.



Have you seen how France treats refugees?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> My position from the start has been a version of what has come to be known as 'radical remain'. To a large extent that was motivated by a negative - I feared exactly what has happened, essentially, the emboldening of nasty forces and a tory-led brexit that leads to only bad things. Despite agreeing with those who criticise the EU's neoliberal character, I am not in the camp of those who wish to see the EU crash and burn. Again, that is to a large extent due to a negative - I fear the r/w forces that would likely take control in the event of a collapse of the EU, I would see such a collapse as a genuine threat to peace. But not entirely negative - there are positives about EU membership, including free movement, but also the guarantees of certain rights, however imperfectly they may be enforced (and it will always be imperfect).  Plus international cooperation has to happen, and if not this way, there would need to be another - that leaves a question to be answered and a hole that could be filled with things a lot worse than the current EU.
> 
> Having said all the above, if there were a movement seeking to leave the EU and establish a new kind of European solidarity, such as that of Melenchon in France, I might well support it. I'm not wedded to the idea of the EU at all costs - that's part of the divisive 'you're a remainer or a leaver and that's that' binary - and something better would be great. But we're nowhere near that. In that sense, remainer/leaver misses the point - _this leave_ is the thing I specifically oppose.



Fair enough. For me the anti democratic nature of the EU makes it incapable of reform to something it never was but an actual radical remain campaign from left, rather than occasional lip service to it from some quarters (diem25, AEIP) to little impact while left as a whole threw itself into defence mode would have been better. Same with a left leave too orc, it existed but was basically left to a cpb/trot lash up which likewise had no impact. Whichever way you cut it, it's hard to look at last few years and come to any conclusion other than the left fucking it to benefit of an insurgent right


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not sure anyone would suggest the UK is much better, though certainly it is a far more welcoming society than France, Hungary, Austria and so on and the UK has not taken to shooting at refugees in boats. When the Greeks were abusing the refugees earlier this week Bob Geldorf and his cohorts were very quiet about the free movement they love to bang on about though.


I'm reminded of the welcome the Vietnamese boat people were afforded in Hong Kong, and the great efforts this country went to to minimise Jewish immigration in the 30s. People in this country may be more welcoming than many other countries. The government has in the main been less hospitable over the past 115 years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Have you seen how France treats refugees?


Never mind refugees, they can be very unpleasant to their own citizens examples of which  abound including the 1961 massacre of Algerians and the vile, bestial way the cops behave in the suburbs of Paris.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 4, 2020)

I know we are down to the bare bones here but at one time we had a decent ‘well on balance I’d rather remain but reform the EU’ contingent. I had a lot of sympathy with that position at one time and only came round to a leave position about a month,  if that , before the referendum . Now  the boards are reduced to some of the worst my enemies enemy is my friend sort of guff I’ve ever seen. No one imo who thinks they are on the left should have a position of uncritical and unconditional support for the EU.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 4, 2020)

Terrible record on dealing with refugee crises.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I know we are down to the bare bones here but at one time we had a decent ‘well on balance I’d rather remain but reform the EU’ contingent. I had a lot of sympathy with that position at one time and only came round to a leave position about a month,  if that , before the referendum . Now  the boards are reduced to some of the worst my enemies enemy is my friend sort of guff I’ve ever seen. No one imo who thinks they are on the left should have a position of uncritical and unconditional support for the EU.



I don't think it's just on here tbf, seems to be the case generally. In interests of fairness, I also know people at ref who voted leave but from left and with more sympathy for a remain position who have moved over last few years to a more standard brexit and antagonistic position. All credit to brexit really, has been the perfect political bomb


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 4, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I don't think it's just on here tbf, seems to be the case generally. In interests of fairness, I also know people at ref who voted leave but from left and with more sympathy for a remain position who have moved over last few years to a more standard brexit and antagonistic position. All credit to brexit really, has been the perfect political bomb


Haven’t seen that on  here tbh here being my point


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> As in the _we the people_, whose money is being spent.  Or is the money coming from a magic Brexit moneytree I didn't hear about? Apols if that's the case.


 the amount actually spent on brexit pales into insignificance beside the money that has been lost because of the departure from the eu


----------



## killer b (Mar 4, 2020)

The 200 billion quid lost thing people are chucking around isn't actually 200 billion quid disappearing out of our bank accounts - it's 200 billion quid less growth to the economy. Is this how we measure the common good here now, growth to the economy?


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

killer b said:


> The 200 billion quid lost thing people are chucking around isn't actually 200 billion quid disappearing out of our bank accounts - it's 200 billion quid less growth to the economy. Is this how we measure the common good here now, growth to the economy?


You might if it's your benefits being cut as a result. And it's obvious that the whole Brexit process that dragged on for years must have cost a fucking bomb anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

killer b said:


> The 200 billion quid lost thing people are chucking around isn't actually 200 billion quid disappearing out of our bank accounts - it's 200 billion quid less growth to the economy. Is this how we measure the common good here now, growth to the economy?


It's how I answered editor's question about how much brexit had cost. Many brexiteers doubtless see reduced economic growth as a price worth paying. Speaking personally, it'd have been nice if some of the money that never was had gone, in no particular order, to things like  returning he wages to their 2008 level, to housing the homeless, to lifting children out of poverty and to making sure everyone in the country was literate and numerate. I'm not sure the common good has been well served over the past 4 years in any way you wish to measure it


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## killer b (Mar 4, 2020)

Benefits aren't cut because the economy isn't growing as fast now as it was in 2015. They're cut because of political choices by those in government.


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

In it together


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 4, 2020)

The government prints money , it’s not the same as a household account .


----------



## killer b (Mar 4, 2020)

Focus on relentless and endless growth to the economy has brought us to the brink of environmental & social collapse, and will most likely see us over the edge. Fuck growth tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

coronavirus will deal a great blow to growth, while also reducing pollution


----------



## 8ball (Mar 4, 2020)

killer b said:


> The 200 billion quid lost thing people are chucking around isn't actually 200 billion quid disappearing out of our bank accounts - it's 200 billion quid less growth to the economy. Is this how we measure the common good here now, growth to the economy?



Yup


----------



## 8ball (Mar 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> coronavirus will deal a great blow to growth, while also reducing pollution



Thank fuck it wasn’t a farting virus.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

killer b said:


> Benefits aren't cut because the economy isn't growing as fast now as it was in 2015. They're cut because of political choices by those in government.


Yes, but do you think Brexit - and all the costs incurred so  far - is going to make things better or worse?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Yes and do you think Brexit - and all the costs incurred so  ar - is going to make things better or worse?


We have a tory administration, which makes the question largely redundant


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> We have a tory administration, which makes the question largely redundant


And they got in on a mandate to _get Brexit done._ I think it's going to make things worse for 'normal' people. What do you think?


----------



## killer b (Mar 4, 2020)

I think the choices of this government are going to make things worse. But this government's choices _without_ brexit would also be to make things worse, so...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> And they got in on a mandate to _get Brexit done._ I think it's going to make things worse for 'normal' people. What do you think?


I think that you're understating the consequences
But I know of no tory government that's ever made things better


----------



## kabbes (Mar 4, 2020)

killer b said:


> The 200 billion quid lost thing people are chucking around isn't actually 200 billion quid disappearing out of our bank accounts - it's 200 billion quid less growth to the economy. Is this how we measure the common good here now, growth to the economy?


Hey, that’s £200bn less for billionaires to put in the Cayman Islands!


----------



## killer b (Mar 4, 2020)




----------



## killer b (Mar 4, 2020)

_Human Life vs Capital Accumulation_ is the topic of David Harvey's latest podcast btw, you should give it a listen - he's very good. 









						Anti-Capitalist Chronicles
					

Anti-Capitalist Chronicles is a Democracy at Work (d@w) production. d@w produces media and live events to expose capitalism’s systemic problems and to show how democratizing our workplaces solves them. We can do better than capitalism.




					www.democracyatwork.info


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 4, 2020)

While I agree with the general point about growth, we all know who suffers first and worst in any recession. The billionaires and their Cayman accounts will be just fine.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I think that you're understating the consequences
> But I know of no tory government that's ever made things better


John Major deregulated the importation of certain fireworks for rebranding and re exportation only. These leaked onto the market and gave five fantastic grin provoking  years of pyrotastic 1000 explosion cracker cakes and more before they were all banned again.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I think that you're understating the consequences
> But I know of no tory government that's ever made things better


Clean Air Act 1956


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Clean Air Act 1956


Things


----------



## Marty1 (Mar 4, 2020)

Here’s an interesting article quoting Douglas Carswell musing over potential advantages from a mega trade deal with the US.









						German companies ‘poised to relocate to UK’ after Brexit on ONE condition
					

EU chiefs could be issued a huge blow if a US-UK Free Trade Agreement (FTA) is secured - as German businesses might find relocating en masse to the UK




					galaxynewsexpress.com
				




A booming post Brexit economy would certainly unite the country.


----------



## MrSki (Mar 4, 2020)




----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 4, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Here’s an interesting article quoting Douglas Carswell musing over potential advantages from a mega trade deal with the US.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry, but Douglas Carswell  ,  told Express.co.uk.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 4, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Clean Air Act 1956


Tabled and passed with some reluctance by Eden's administration after 'rebellious' backbench activity made continued inaction untenable. This, of course, followed the previous (Churchill II) administration's outright lying about the 9k+ spike in mortality during the December 1952 'great smog'; to protect economic interests, they blamed the increased mortality on a non-existent 'flu epidemic.


----------



## Marty1 (Mar 4, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sorry, but Douglas Carswell  ,  told Express.co.uk.





Yes, I’m beginning to understand there’s little appetite for any Brexit positivity on here, regardless of the source


----------



## brogdale (Mar 4, 2020)

Thought they'd finally hoofed out the matey1 bridge-dweller?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 4, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yes, I’m beginning to understand there’s little appetite for any Brexit positivity on here, regardless of the source



As a leave voter, I remain open minded as to how things will play out.

But, I don't consider the Express nor the twat Carswell as worthwhile sources for anything.


----------



## MrSki (Mar 4, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Thought they'd finally hoofed out the matey1 bridge-dweller?


Yeah I saw it too yesterday but not a permo for some reason. Fucking cockwomble that he is.


----------



## Marty1 (Mar 4, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> As a leave voter, I remain open minded as to how things will play out.
> 
> But, I don't consider the Express nor the twat Carswell as worthwhile sources for anything.



Im hopefully optimistic and enjoyed the article


----------



## killer b (Mar 4, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> While I agree with the general point about growth, we all know who suffers first and worst in any recession. The billionaires and their Cayman accounts will be just fine.


Sure. But the suffering of the poor during recessions is again a political choice, not an inevitability. And the end-point of never-ending growth is human extinction (or so Harvey argues, and it's a point I find difficult to disagree with - the evidence is all around us).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 4, 2020)

killer b said:


> Sure. But the suffering of the poor during recessions is again a political choice, not an inevitability. And the end-point of never-ending growth is human extinction (or so Harvey argues, and it's a point I find difficult to disagree with - the evidence is all around us).


Yep. cos keeping the rich getting richer is the priority of the system. Got to keep those profits going. So again, I agree with the overall point, but this capitalist system isn't going away with brexit, so the point that the poor will be squashed by any economic downturn is still valid, imo, cos we can know that that will happen inevitably _in this system_.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 4, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Here’s an interesting article quoting Douglas Carswell musing over potential advantages from a mega trade deal with the US.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



nothing like broadening posters reading habits Marty


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Here’s an interesting article quoting Douglas Carswell musing over potential advantages from a mega trade deal with the US.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bwahaha.


----------



## Marty1 (Mar 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Bwahaha.



And if Britain starts an economic boom, you will say the same?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 4, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Here’s an interesting article quoting Douglas Carswell musing over potential advantages from a mega trade deal with the US.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fuck me, where to start on that delusional drivel? Maybe I'll just start with this. The UK is already aligned to the EU. A trade deal with the EU is the straightforward one, and also the important one given that half of the UK's exports go to the EU. IIRC less than 10 per cent of the UK's exports go to the US currently, and the US has a very different regulatory scheme. The UK is very far from aligned with the US, making any trade deal to make 'what is legal in Clacton will be legal in North Carolina' a very, very, very tricky thing to do even if you didn't know that any such alignment would fuck your trade deal with your most important trading partner, the EU. 

Utter, utter drivel from one of the most swivelly of swivel-eyed loons, but you and I and everyone else have to hope against hope that he isn't right, and that a FTD with the US isn't imminent. That would really fuck us.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

Carswell's book is a good example of the stuff I was talking about before though tbf.

Posh fella, posh schools, posh chin, posh politics, tory even when he wasn't, business right wing, every part of him ruling class with ruling class politics, representing a piss poor tory constituency.

This is how he presented his book:


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 4, 2020)

A red fist.  kinell. Comrade Carswell

But this drivel about trade deals just highlights the inherent contradictions of a right-wing, 'business-led' brexit. The TD that really matters, the one that matters as much as all the others put together, is the one with the EU. The easiest and most painless way to get a TD with the EU is to agree to remain aligned. Easy peasy. Except that that would render brexit utterly pointless - the easiest and most painless way to stay aligned is to stay in the EU.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

Oh I didn't actually read the carswell piece, fuck that


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 4, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Oh I didn't actually read the carswell piece, fuck that



wise. tbh wise not to read anything Marty0.1 posts. But it did cause you to post up carswell's book cover, and that made me laugh, so not all for nothing.


----------



## xenon (Mar 4, 2020)

.


----------



## xenon (Mar 4, 2020)

.


----------



## editor (Mar 5, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> And if Britain starts an economic boom, you will say the same?


What credible evidence have you seen that would suggest Britain is about to burst into economic bloom (note: shit YouTube videos posted by fuckknowswho do not count as credible evidence)?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 5, 2020)

editor said:


> What credible evidence have you seen that would suggest Britain is about to burst into economic bloom (note: shit YouTube videos posted by fuckknowswho do not count as credible evidence)?


Pah. Evidence is for the weak-hearted. This is faith-based politics. If it fails, it fails cos of you lot who lacked faith in it. It's unpatriotic not to believe.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 5, 2020)

I wish the above were some kind of parody of the situation. It's not.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 5, 2020)

editor said:


> What credible evidence have you seen that would suggest Britain is about to burst into economic bloom (note: shit YouTube videos posted by fuckknowswho do not count as credible evidence)?


The truth is neither the UK or the EU are  about to burst into economic boom


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> The truth is neither the UK or the EU are  about to burst into economic boom


Since 2008, qe, slashing interest rates and all that jazz, long-term stagnation has been the order of the day, as per Japan post-1990. And as per Japan post-1990 there is not necessarily any end to that in sight (remember how low interest rates were supposed to be temporary - they'll be going up in six months' time...). But an economy in an already rich country that stays around the same size is not in and of itself a problem. It's a problem for capitalism and the extraction of profits, hence all that central bank and govt intervention from r/w govts in Japan. But for society, it need not be a problem at all. In fact, it probably ought to be thought of as a necessity in today's conditions. It's also an opportunity to chip away at capitalism as its profits diminish and the model fails. 

There are lots of ifs and buts in the above, though. Without intervention, such a stagnation will tend to lead to what we've had in the last decade - a reduction in real wages in order that returns on capital can continue to roll in. Thus far all the wrong lessons have been taken from the 2008 crash. 

And yes, you're right, this is true with or without brexit.


----------



## Anju (Mar 5, 2020)

British economy 'to grow 0.16% at best under US trade deal'
					

Admission lays bare limited benefits of ‘ambitious’ agreement with Donald Trump




					www.theguardian.com
				




That's a quiet boom.

Personally I'm looking forward to moving to a more US style economy. Their stuff must be way better than what we get in the EU. Why else would 50 1000mg Metformin cost €2.30 in Spain when in America 14 500mg Metformin cost $12. Life will be so much more exciting when FOM stands for food or medicine rather than freedom of movement.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2020)

editor said:


> What credible evidence have you seen that would suggest Britain is about to burst into economic bloom?


the impending arrival of spring

i've already seen some cherry trees blooming away  and it can't be long until other flowers are out


----------



## brogdale (Mar 5, 2020)

Judging by the rather distracted, distant and hollow look on the normally perma-smile features of the newly appointed Chancellor at yesterday's PMQs, I wouldn't be yelling BUY!, BUY! just yet.

Looked like he had the woes of the world on his shoulders, and could only manage pretty low quality auto-pilot braying.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 5, 2020)

German car manufacturers already import their cars tariff free into the US, BMW has factories in both the USA and Mexico and VW/Audi has plants in the southern US 
Unless UK workers are willing to work for a lot less than Mexican ones, I can't see German car manufacturers moving their jobs here.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 5, 2020)

Today's ONS Incomes data "reveal" (as though we didn't know) that disposable household income for the poorest (lowest quintile) of the population is falling.

The inflexion in the red line, turning to decline happens to have occurred pretty much at the point of the June 2016 referendum.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 5, 2020)

The years before the crash are very revealing there, and show the scale of the failure of the Blair/Brown govts as well as the nature of capitalist 'booms'. Top fifth zooming up, bottom fifth falling remorselessly.

Once you've factored in rents, there is an even grimmer picture - most at the bottom not in social housing will have seen housing costs zoom up in that period. There's also the steep rise in utility costs to factor in, which disproportionately hits the poorest.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The years before the crash are very revealing there, and show the scale of the failure of the Blair/Brown govts as well as the nature of capitalist 'booms'. Top fifth zooming up, bottom fifth falling remorselessly.


Yep; comes from that Mandelsonian intense comfort.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The years before the crash are very revealing there, and show the scale of the failure of the Blair/Brown govts as well as the nature of capitalist 'booms'. Top fifth zooming up, bottom fifth falling remorselessly.
> 
> Once you've factored in rents, there is an even grimmer picture - most at the bottom not in social housing will have seen housing costs zoom up in that period. There's also the steep rise in utility costs to factor in, which disproportionately hits the poorest.


i think you'll find people in social housing saw rents zoom up in that period, as councils increased them towards "market" levels.

but that chart doesn't really represent public sector pay, which has been below inflation for many years.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 5, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you'll find people in social housing saw rents zoom up in that period, as councils increased them towards "market" levels.
> 
> but that chart doesn't really represent public sector pay, which has been below inflation for many years.


That's undoubtedly correct, and would have made the graph even worse; the data set is before housing costs.


----------



## CNT36 (Mar 5, 2020)

Starting to worry there could be three or four people in front of me for my flight to the Scillies next month.


----------



## Marty1 (Mar 6, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> nothing like broadening posters reading habits Marty



Yes, well it certainly offers for a diversity of opinion from the saturation of anti-Brexit hysteria articles from The Independent.


----------



## editor (Mar 6, 2020)

And on a related note. I feel sorry for some of them. They were hoping for an easy retirement and now all this shit has blown up 



> ritons living in Spain are confused and fearful about their post-Brexit futures “to a quite shocking extent”, according to the author of a study, with poor support and communication from British and Spanish authorities mainly to blame.
> 
> Despite the withdrawal agreement securing the basic rights of UK citizens legally resident on the continent, Karen O’Reilly, a sociology professor at Loughborough University, said her research revealed “enormous levels of uncertainty and worry”.





> Many Britons in Spain were not officially registered as Spanish residents, O’Reilly said, partly because different Spanish local authorities have interpreted free movement policies differently. The situation is exacerbated because Spain does not allow dual nationality for Britons.
> 
> “Lots of people have just buried their heads in the sand,” O’Reilly said. “It’s not hard to pass under the radar, halfway up a mountain in Spain. There are people here really living on the breadline: pretty much undocumented migrants.
> 
> “People are afraid to register because they’re worried they will be told they aren’t legal, that they won’t meet future income requirements, that they will be told to go back to a country they maybe left decades ago and where they have nothing.”











						British residents in Spain 'confused and alarmed' about post-Brexit future
					

Lack of information has left thousands of expats confused about status, study shows




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## editor (Mar 6, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yes, well it certainly offers for a diversity of opinion from the saturation of anti-Brexit hysteria articles from The Independent.


So what are the clear, obvious, credible and deliverable benefits of Brexit for you?  

*As in right now or in the very near future, not in some hazy, fantasy booming Britain dreamt up by some Youtube video banged out by pointless bedroom shitehawk.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 6, 2020)

editor said:


> So what are the clear, obvious, credible and deliverable benefits of Brexit for you?
> 
> *As in right now or in the very near future, not in some hazy, fantasy booming Britain dreamt up by some Youtube video banged out by pointless bedroom shitehawk.



No, I think they're from incredibly non-hysterical Daily Express articles.


----------



## Marty1 (Mar 6, 2020)

editor said:


> So what are the clear, obvious, credible and deliverable benefits of Brexit for you?
> 
> *As in right now or in the very near future, not in some hazy, fantasy booming Britain dreamt up by some Youtube video banged out by pointless bedroom shitehawk.



Ill get bk to you on Sun/Mon when I’m off work.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 6, 2020)

editor said:


> And on a related note. I feel sorry for some of them. They were hoping for an easy retirement and now all this shit has blown up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pleasant change to see an article that acknowledges the diversity of UK citizens living in Spain. I must say that in  Portugal the advice given from both the British consulate and the Portuguese Govt has been good ie if you haven’t got a resident certificate get one ie 30 mins max at the Town Hall or if  that’s lapsed got to Border Security and Immigration and get a renewal, sign up for Health and/ or Social  Security and whilst you can change your driving license for a Portuguese one wait and see what happens  . Very often with expats you end up with a load of buffoons offering advice on Facebook sites which is normally , like Facebook is , a load of tosh . Fill in the correct documents and you are fine . Both the U.K. and the EU countries should be making efforts to ensure that everyone who has a right to stay can stay .


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 6, 2020)

I dunno why british ex pats in spain get such a hard time tbh, most of them are just pensioners trying to have a few years in the sun between working and popping their clogs


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I dunno why british ex pats in spain get such a hard time tbh, most of them are just pensioners trying to have a few years in the sun between working and popping their clogs


Very mixed bunch as they are in Portugal . Always find it ironic that the ones that go and live abroad in the EU are lambasted by the Remainers that stay at home . I went to some Dutch people house last year for a do ,no Portuguese there , a few spoke English but fewer spoke any Portuguese . All Dutch food and raving about a Dutch supermarket and a Dutch bar. The idea that the U.K. abroad are unique is laughable tbh . Same with the French and Germans here.


----------



## Marty1 (Mar 6, 2020)

editor said:


> So what are the clear, obvious, credible and deliverable benefits of Brexit for you?
> 
> *As in right now or in the very near future, not in some hazy, fantasy booming Britain dreamt up by some Youtube video banged out by pointless bedroom shitehawk.



Controlling our immigration is a big one for me.

Be nice for people to come here on merit and have a better chance of decent work than the current system.

From my experience in the area I live and my job, companies like Amazon exploit a constant flow of cheap and disposable labour to maximise their profits - ultimately its de-humanising and people just become commodities.  I’d hope that controlling immigration may reduce/stop this type of contempt from certain employers and may make them think twice about treating workers like shit.

From my experience, nothing could be as bad as it is in the EU.

A strange thing happened today - we were all issued with a lanyard badge with nothing on it but a Q-code  - we were told that if you simply scan it with your phones camera it will open an app that lets you voice any grievances/complaints about the job directly to Amazon UK - this is unprecedented.  It may turn out to be a waste of time but part of me felt this as a potential step forward somehow and possibly as a result of us leaving the EU.  Perhaps Amazon are realising that their days of taking the utter piss are not as certain as they once were?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 6, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> From my experience, nothing could be as bad as it is in the EU.


That's an odd comment. What experience do you have of the UK not being in the EU?

People being treated like commodities is nothing new. It's called capitalism. Marx wrote about it 150 years ago.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 7, 2020)

Hence left wing ideas giving us things like state pension, a vote, reasonably safe working conditions etc through working class organisation and tradition, rather than getting your information from rich men pushing anti-working class agendas.


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 7, 2020)

two sheds said:


> No, I think they're from incredibly non-hysterical Daily Express articles.



Unlike the entirely credible reports from the Independent!

I'm not sure which is worse tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2020)

alfajobrob said:


> Unlike the entirely credible reports from the Independent!
> 
> I'm not sure which is worse tbh.


 The express' articles are worse due to their journos' looser grasp of the language.


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 7, 2020)

Both are poxy excuses for papers and quoted by fucking cretins.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2020)

Humberto said:


> Hence left wing ideas giving us things like state pension, a vote, reasonably safe working conditions etc through working class organisation and tradition, rather than getting your information from rich men pushing anti-working class agendas.


The pension on a lw idea. Unless you think that the likes of Bismarck, Churchill and Lloyd George were left wing. Nor is the notion of the vote tbh. The ancient Romans or athenians for example would be baffled by your claim.


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 7, 2020)

I wished I lived in Indy or Express land. It must be nice to be so fucking stupid.

Just walk around with your head up your arse..la la la.


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 7, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The express' articles are worse due to their journos' looser grasp of the language.



They have better weather reports though..

I'm still awaiting Snowmaggedon!


----------



## two sheds (Mar 7, 2020)

alfajobrob said:


> Unlike the entirely credible reports from the Independent!
> 
> I'm not sure which is worse tbh.




(((((Lady Di))))


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2020)

alfajobrob said:


> They have better weather reports though..
> 
> I'm still awaiting Snowmaggedon!


If by better you mean more accurate then the indy has them


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 7, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> If by better you mean more accurate then the indy has them



Ok. Are you accusing the Independent of being accurate?

Is this some weird joke I'm not getting?


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 7, 2020)

You know how people rightly get derided for posting links to the Sun/Express?

What makes it any better?

It's just clickbait for twats.


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 7, 2020)

Oh shit.. just seen the OP.

Clickbait for twats.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 7, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The pension on a lw idea. Unless you think that the likes of Bismarck, Churchill and Lloyd George were left wing. Nor is the notion of the vote tbh. The ancient Romans or athenians for example would be baffled by your claim.



You live and learn


----------



## Humberto (Mar 7, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The pension on a lw idea. Unless you think that the likes of Bismarck, Churchill and Lloyd George were left wing. Nor is the notion of the vote tbh. The ancient Romans or athenians for example would be baffled by your claim.



I'm not saying you are wrong, but I found this interesting:




> In 1902 George Barnes, General Secretary of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, formed the National Committee of Organised Labour for Old Age Pension. Barnes spent the next three years travelling the country urging this social welfare reform. The measure was extremely popular and was an important factor in Barnes being able to defeat Andrew Bonar Law, the Conservative cabinet minister in the 1906 General Election. (1)
> 
> 
> David Lloyd George, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the government led by Herbert Asquith, made a speech had warned that if the Liberal Party did not pass radical legislation, at the next election, the working-class would vote for the Labour Party: "If at the end of our term of office it were found that the present Parliament had done nothing to cope seriously with the social condition of the people, to remove the national degradation of slums and widespread poverty and destitution in a land glittering with wealth, if they do not provide an honourable sustenance for deserving old age, if they tamely allow the House of Lords to extract all virtue out of their bills, so that when the Liberal statute book is produced it is simply a bundle of sapless legislative faggots fit only for the fire - then a new cry will arise for a land with a new party, and many of us will join in that cry."











						Old Age Pensions Act
					

A detailed account of the Old Age Pensions Act that includes includes images, quotations and the main facts of the situation. Key Stage 3. GCSE British History. A-level.




					spartacus-educational.com


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 7, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The pension on a lw idea. Unless you think that the likes of Bismarck, Churchill and Lloyd George were left wing. Nor is the notion of the vote tbh. The ancient Romans or athenians for example would be baffled by your claim.


So we can  write off the Chartists as part of working class history then? Or the notion that the working class see the state as a means of providing welfare . Neither universal suffrage or the welfare state reforms would have been delivered with out working class agitation.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 7, 2020)

Yeah tbf concessions made by cunts to keep everything ticking over are still gains. 

On the state pension, its my view that given its clear erosion with changes to state pension age, how shit it is in UK compared to pretty much any other developed economy, how its likely they'll means test it and make it a benefit for poor people (see pension credit) etc, and fact that everybody gets old and for all but the very wealthy the state pension is a large part of retirement income, that this is something the left etc should be building a big campaign around it. Foundations already there in WASPI. Would mean lots of activist types getting over their boomer/all pensioners are tory/rich thing though


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 7, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah tbf concessions made by cunts to keep everything ticking over are still gains.
> 
> On the state pension, its my view that given its clear erosion with changes to state pension age, how shit it is in UK compared to pretty much any other developed economy, how its likely they'll means test it and make it a benefit for poor people (see pension credit) etc, and fact that everybody gets old and for all but the very wealthy the state pension is a large part of retirement income, that this is something the left etc should be building a big campaign around it. Foundations already there in WASPI. Would mean lots of activist types getting over their boomer/all pensioners are tory/rich thing though


Anyone remember Jack Jones's  National Pensioners Convention ?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 7, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Anyone remember Jack Jones's  National Pensioners Convention ?



Only from his book but its still going I think. 

But seriously, putting aside that it's right and that most of us will be reliant on state pension so it's also self interest, it's a great wedge issue. The sympathies it could pull in from unusual quarters etc. Got to be better than vilifying old people anyway


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> So we can  write off the Chartists as part of working class history then? Or the notion that the working class see the state as a means of providing welfare . Neither universal suffrage or the welfare state reforms would have been delivered with out working class agitation.


Oh the expansion of the franchise, I quite agree. But the vote itself, existing for hundreds of years in england before the shrinking of the electorate in 1832, hardly a lw idea

I don't deny the place of wc agitation but the notion that these things specifically lw ideas, which when you see the politics of eg some of the suffragists fighting for votes for women seems untenable


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 7, 2020)

The Luddites, on the other hand, and Captain Swing's mob... they were proper!


----------



## TopCat (Mar 7, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Anyone remember Jack Jones's  National Pensioners Convention ?


Yes. Well organised. Their voices heard.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 8, 2020)

Far removed from the overwhelming concern of longer queues for UK holiday makers this is however a thought provoking contribution on the real issues of EU border controls









						Detention, torture and killing … how the EU outsourced migration policy | Kenan Malik
					

Only a morally warped ideology can justify opening fire at those fleeing for their lives




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Marty1 (Mar 8, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Far removed from the overwhelming concern of longer queues for UK holiday makers this is however a thought provoking contribution on the real issues of EU border controls
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Nobody knows how many migrants have been killed by EU-funded forces. Of those who have escaped their clutches, at least 20,000 people have drowned in the Mediterranean in the past six years alone.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 8, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Far removed from the overwhelming concern of longer queues for UK holiday makers this is however a thought provoking contribution on the real issues of EU border controls
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This, the treatment of those outside the EU, forever trying to gain entry, paying a fortune to traffickers,  often losing their lives in the journey. Why do the remainers avoid talking about it?


----------



## Marty1 (Mar 8, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This, the treatment of those outside the EU, forever trying to gain entry, paying a fortune to traffickers,  often losing their lives in the journey. Why do the remainers avoid talking about it?



Because it destroys their narrative of the EU being everything lovely that gives them a warm fuzzy feeling?


----------



## B.I.G (Mar 8, 2020)

TopCat and Marty1 united at last.

Its more likely that it wouldn’t be any different if the EU existed or not.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 8, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Because it destroys their narrative of the EU being everything lovely that gives them a warm fuzzy feeling?


Why am I in a corner of the arena with you Marty1 getting remainer shit on us both? 
Where is everyone else?


----------



## hot air baboon (Mar 8, 2020)

I mean wtaf - 200 up votes      needless to say the Gaurdian ( oops wrong thread )


----------



## editor (Mar 8, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Because it destroys their narrative of the EU being everything lovely that gives them a warm fuzzy feeling?


There's plenty that's wrong with the EU, but please explain in practical, likely-to-happen terms how Brexit would prevent this terrible ongoing situation from continuing. Thanks.


----------



## Marty1 (Mar 8, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Why am I in a corner of the arena with you Marty1 getting remainer shit on us both?
> Where is everyone else?



It’s a mystery.

Perhaps we’ve become immune to the vulnerabilities of the culture war - a rarity.


----------



## B.I.G (Mar 8, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> It’s a mystery.
> 
> Perhaps we’ve become immune to the vulnerabilities of the culture war - a rarity.



The culture war 😂 I’m sorry for everything TopCat 40 years of struggle against the man and this is what you get!


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 8, 2020)

editor said:


> There's plenty that's wrong with the EU, but please explain in practical, likely-to-happen terms how Brexit would prevent this terrible ongoing situation from continuing. Thanks.



Well it weakens the EU, although it would have had greater impact on its border policies if there had been a prominent left leave campaign pre & post referendum highlighting the EU's approach to migration


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 9, 2020)

It also means that the U.K. is no longer complicit in the decision making processes which lead to the situations described.


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## B.I.G (Mar 9, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> It also means that the U.K. is no longer complicit in the decision making processes which lead to the situations described.



Ah. The morality of convenient geography.


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 9, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This, the treatment of those outside the EU, forever trying to gain entry, paying a fortune to traffickers,  often losing their lives in the journey. Why do the remainers avoid talking about it?



Probably because our governments busy wanking itself into a bubbly froth over finally stopping the immigrant hordes.

Unless they can pay in which case welcome to the UK, we’re open to all.


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 9, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> It also means that the U.K. is no longer complicit in the decision making processes which lead to the situations described.



Presumably we can still be complicit in blowing countries up and supporting dictators to encourage more refugees though.


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## JimW (Mar 9, 2020)

Doubt we'd have seen the deals with Libya or Turkey as bilateral efforts absent the EU.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2020)

JimW said:


> Doubt we'd have seen the deals with Libya or Turkey as bilateral efforts absent the EU.


Which Libyan govt?


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## Spymaster (Mar 9, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Presumably we can still be complicit in blowing countries up and supporting dictators to encourage more refugees though.


Of course we could but this is a weird way that some of you are arguing here. Someone mentions EU treatment of migrants and a remoaner says ‘how does Brexit change that’. Someone says we’re out of that system and a remoaner says ‘but we might be just as bad as the EU’ with reference to something else entirely.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> It also means that the U.K. is no longer complicit in the decision making processes which lead to the situations described.


Yeh the vigour with which Johnson opposes it is amazing


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## JimW (Mar 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Which Libyan govt?


That was part of the problem, hardly took account of the situation in country or didn't care.


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## Spymaster (Mar 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh the vigour with which Johnson opposes it is amazing


And again!


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## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2020)

JimW said:


> That was part of the problem, hardly took account of the situation in country or didn't care.


Er who created the situation in country?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> And again!


By no means. I am simply pointing to the energy with which hmg are displaying their long-awaited lack of complicity


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## JimW (Mar 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Er who created the situation in country?


What's your point there as regards signing the deal?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2020)

JimW said:


> What's your point there as regards signing the deal?


 the uneasy state of affairs in Libya may see the deal govt shortly replaced by another authority


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## Spymaster (Mar 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> By no means. I am simply pointing to the energy with which hmg are displaying their long-awaited lack of complicity


Are you suggesting that separating the U.K. from EU policy making processes was not a major factor in many people’s decision to vote leave?


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## JimW (Mar 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> the uneasy state of affairs in Libya may see the deal govt shortly replaced by another authority


True, think they basically dealt with tripoli as they still controlled the coastguard.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2020)

Spymaster said:


> Are you suggesting that separating the U.K. from EU policy making processes was not a major factor in many people’s decision to vote leave?


depends what you mean by many. I doubt more than 10 or 20 thousand people would have framed their major reason for leaving in that manner.


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## Steel Icarus (Mar 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> depends what you mean by many. I doubt more than 10 or 20 thousand people would have framed their major reason for leaving in that manner.


Nevertheless there would be a significantly larger number whose primary reason for voting to leave could be described as such.


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 9, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Nevertheless there would be a significantly larger number whose primary reason for voting to leave could be described as such.



Oh sure, voting to get away from Brussels dictated rules and regulations was a significant factor.

It’d just be nicer if it wasn’t the uk government that had exceeded any of these recommendations when implementing them and the papers that hadn’t reacted to the Brussels laws with a xenophobic zeal for Imperial weights, measures and blue passports that had prompted people to side with fascist far right fuck nuggets.

God I wish Jeremy C had gone dicks out for Leave and we hadn’t had to deal with the farcical plp coup after the ref, maybe then a left leave would have had legs instead of everything about vote leave being done by a right lead cabal of racists and embezzlers.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Nevertheless there would be a significantly larger number whose primary reason for voting to leave could be described as such.


Yes, let's let the psephologists take over


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, let's let the psephologists take over


They'd only offer numerical/statistical attempts at rational explanations. Probs best left to the sociologists and psychologists who analyse and interpret the networked subjectivity of the (social) mediatised 'politics' of Brexit.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> They'd only offer numerical/statistical attempts at rational explanations. Probs best left to the sociologists and psychologists who analyse and interpret the networked subjectivity of the (social) mediatised 'politics' of Brexit.


perhaps it's an irrational explanation we need.


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps it's an irrational explanation we need.


Seem to recall that significant numbers of those asked stated that their desire for Brexit outweighed any potential for material disadvantage. Such affective political decision making would therefore appear to be outside any conventional notions of rationality?


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## The39thStep (Mar 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Seem to recall that significant numbers of those asked stated that their desire for Brexit outweighed any potential for material disadvantage. Such affective political decision making would therefore appear to be outside any conventional notions of rationality?


Well for many the question of national sovereignty,  an elected parliament making legislation and the national state being the focus for change didnt seem quite as outside the conventional notions of rationality as you suggest.


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Well for many the question of national sovereignty,  an elected parliament making legislation and the national state being the focus for change didnt seem quite as outside the conventional notions of rationality as you suggest.


Yes, that's probably right.
I suppose I should have specified the sort of economic rationality that is said to underpin most electoral decision making.
Personally, I have to say that I think it is the height of irrationality to expect any change moving from shared neoliberal sovereignty to national neoliberal sovereignty .


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## The39thStep (Mar 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Yes, that's probably right.
> I suppose I should have specified the sort of economic rationality that is said to underpin most electoral decision making.
> Personally, I have to say that I think it is the height of irrationality to expect any change moving from shared neoliberal sovereignty to national neoliberal sovereignty .


Except that in the GE of 2017 it looked like it was possible to change the latter but its always been impossible to change the former


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Except that in the GE of 2017 it looked like it was possible to change the latter but its always been impossible to change the former


 
admirable optimism comrade.


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## The39thStep (Mar 9, 2020)

Pessimism of the intellect optimism of the will


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Pessimism of the intellect optimism of the will


Pretty sure that 'Toni didn't envisage that will expressed through nationalism and a thumping majority for the right party of capital.


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## The39thStep (Mar 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Pretty sure that 'Toni didn't envisage that will expressed through nationalism and a thumping majority for the right party of capital.


Dunno if you've ever read Gramsci but that quote came from his writings in far more difficult times than just an election of a Tory government .


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Dunno if you've ever read Gramsci but that quote came from his writings in far more difficult times than just an election of a Tory government .


Yes and yes, but you put the quote up, so must have felt it held some relevance?


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## redsquirrel (Mar 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Seem to recall that significant numbers of those asked stated that their desire for Brexit outweighed any potential for material disadvantage. Such affective political decision making would therefore appear to be outside any conventional notions of rationality?


WTF! Seriously brogdale this is a really bad line of argument.

The polls I saw put that "material disadvantage" in terms of "damage to the economy". Any move to workers control of the MOP would result in "damage to the economy" so would a desire for such measures be irrational?
But even on a wider definition of "material disadvantage" this is a terrible argument. I would favour a much flatter pay scale both at my workplace and across society despite the fact that would be to my "material disadvantage". Are you really claiming that is irrational? Of course it isn't. I believe the benefits to society would be worth any personal loss to me.

Your post is going dangerously close to taking an almost neutral positions of economics.


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> WTF! Seriously brogdale this is a really bad line of argument.
> 
> The polls I saw put that "material disadvantage" in terms of "damage to the economy". Any move to workers control of the MOP would result in "damage to the economy" so would a desire for such measures be irrational?
> But even on a wider definition of "material disadvantage" this is a terrible argument. I would favour a much flatter pay scale both at my workplace and across society despite the fact that would be to my "material disadvantage". Are you really claiming that is irrational? Of course it isn't. I believe the benefits to society would be worth any personal loss to me.
> ...


Not really, i don't think there's the equivalence that you perceive, there. 
Securing the MoP and socialising the needs & wants met by them would appear to be completely rational, economically or otherwise.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Not really, i don't think there's the equivalence that you perceive, there.
> Securing the MoP and socialising the needs & wants met by them would appear to be completely rational, economically or otherwise.


Like I said you seem to have excepted economics as neutral. Really, really dangerous.

And if you think workers securing the MoP is economically rational you are absolutely crazy. Even the minor (state focused) social democratic measures pushed by the LP were classed as economically damaging.


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> And if you think workers securing the MoP is economically rational you are absolutely crazy.


My bad, it's just that I thought that was point of revolutionary politics.
Maybe I need to read more?


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## redsquirrel (Mar 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> My bad, it's just that I thought that was point of revolutionary politics.
> Maybe I need to read more?


The point of securing workers control of the MoP is not to provide a more rational economics it is to do away with economics altogether - by removing the _economic_ exploitation of workers.


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## 8ball (Mar 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> The point of securing workers control of the MoP is not to provide a more rational economics it is to do away with economics altogether - by removing the _economic_ exploitation of workers.



I don't think that does away with economics altogether.


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> The point of securing workers control of the MoP is not to provide a more rational economics it is to do away with economics altogether - by removing the _economic_ exploitation of workers.


Yes, to secure for the workers the fruits of any labour...what's not rational about that?


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## redsquirrel (Mar 9, 2020)

8ball said:


> I don't think that does away with economics altogether.


Well you'll need to outline an argument why. What do you think economics is?


brogdale said:


> Yes, to secure for the workers the fruits of any labour...what's not rational about that?


It's not _economically rational._


Capitalism is, by definition, the system of society where the exploitation of workers is economic as opposed to extra-economic. Economics is not neutral is the part of the very basis of the justification and extension of the class war under capitalism.


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Well you'll need to outline an argument why. What do you think economics is?
> It's not _economically rational._
> 
> 
> Capitalism is, by definition, the system of society where the exploitation of workers is economic as opposed to extra-economic. Economics is not neutral is the part of the very basis of the justification and extension of the class war under capitalism.


It's completely economically rational for the class.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> It's completely economically rational for the class.


Assuming you mean the working class then absolutely not. Economics is tool of exploitation of labour by capital you cannot re-work it to benefit labour - at least not without making it something so different that it cannot in any real sense be "economics"


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Assuming you mean the working class then absolutely not. Economics is tool of exploitation of labour by capital you cannot re-work it to benefit labour - at least not without making it something so different that it cannot in any real sense be "economics"


Possible this may bore others, so perhaps best to move on?
Just to say, it's possible to describe something as _economically_ something, say rational, without subscribing to the theory of the discipline of Economics. It does have a conventional usage.
e2a: like something that is materially advantageous might be said to be economically rational. But I'm conscious that I may just be exposing the limits of my own appreciation of theory.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Possible this may bore others, so perhaps best to move on?


Yeah fair enough, just one final comment.


brogdale said:


> e2a: like something that is materially advantageous might be said to be economically rational.


It's that equality that I would precisely deny, e.g. the enclosure of the commons was economically rational but to the material disadvantage of society (though obviously not to all sections of it).


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Yeah fair enough, just one final comment.
> It's that equality that I would precisely deny, e.g. the enclosure of the commons was economically rational but to the material disadvantage of society (thought obviously not to all sections of it).


Depends on whose rationality we're considering.
Ends.


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## kabbes (Mar 9, 2020)

Economical rationality has a particular definition, which includes preferring more money to less money at a personal level, without reference to any sense of context.  Any actions that involve reducing money become irrational, regardless of reason.  This is why humans in reality are not rational.  Anyway, I’m pretty sure that this is the version of economic rationality redsquirrel us referring to.


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 9, 2020)

Surely people saying they don't care about the economic impact is more to do with people not feeling any benefit when the economy is supposedly doing well so fuck it


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## brogdale (Mar 9, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Surely people saying they don't care about the economic impact is more to do with people not feeling any benefit when the economy is supposedly doing well so fuck it


There is that.


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## Mogden (Jun 30, 2020)

This cock is being a twat again. I can't think how else to word it    He better not end up in Derby!


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## editor (Jun 30, 2020)

Mogden said:


> This cock is being a twat again. I can't think how else to word it    He better not end up in Derby!


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## editor (Jun 30, 2020)




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## Mogden (Jun 30, 2020)

editor said:


>



Missed that. Thank you  Hopefully he will have drawn enough attention to himself to warrant someone keeping an eye on him


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