# Stop BNP red white and Blue festival



## northernhord (Jul 15, 2008)

Stop the BNP's 
Red, White & Blue festival




National protest and demonstration
Saturday, August 16th, Codnor-Denby Lane, Codnor 
15 mins drive from Junction 26 of the M1 -Travel to protest from all directions via A610
Don't let this 'festival' go unchallenged

Watch the website http://nobnpfestival.wordpress.com for up to 
the minute details of where to go

Protest and mass picket from 9am.
Rally Codnor centre at 12.30pm (Time TBC)
Map and further details on website
(Route to Codnor via A610)
Note these details may alter as the event gets nearer

Watch the website http://nobnpfestival.wordpress.com for up to 
the minute details of where to go



Derby founding meeting: Railway Institute, (Old ‘Sir John Peel’) Wellington St & Park St (behind Swallow Hotel) 
Monday 14th July 7:30pm

Stay in contact
View the Stop the BNP's Red, White and Blue festival website
http://nobnpfestival.wordpress.com for further info email nobnpfestival@riseup.net

Organised by Notts & Derby Stop the BNP  
RMT Conference supports protest (June 2008)
Supported by Midlands TUC, FBU East Midlands, UCU East Midlands, Derby ASLEF, Derby UAF, Nott’m/ Notts Refugee Forum, the UAF and many other unions, anti-racist and other campaigns across the country.


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## sonny61 (Jul 15, 2008)

What a total waste of time.
99% of the public have never even heard of the RWB, or what it is.

Free publicity for the fascists.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 15, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> What a total waste of time.
> 99% of the public have never even heard of the RWB, or what it is.
> 
> Free publicity for the fascists.



There has been no publicity in the media for the RWB that I have seen.


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## sonny61 (Jul 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> There has been no publicity in the media for the RWB that I have seen.



There will be now won't they, that is the point.


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## october_lost (Jul 15, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> What a total waste of time.
> 99% of the public have never even heard of the RWB, or what it is.
> 
> Free publicity for the fascists.



Yeah, we should just let the far-right get on with it, eh 

Nice to see anti-fascist activity outside of the muppetry of ANL and their co-thinkers, I will see if I can get along


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## The Black Hand (Jul 15, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> There will be now won't they, that is the point.



Not much I expect. If you expect 300k people to oppose the BNP I think you will be mistaken. There maybe a few thousand there. I think the police will have it well under control - they will want to shepard the BNP sheep into the pen and keep the wolves away Not much will happen. No story. 

Alternatively, a few clever wolves may dress as sheep and sabotage the bash from the inside. Still not much of a story if a tent burns down mysteriously... They wouldn't have to clear the site and the farming police can still keep the wolves away from the BNP sheep. Though it would make them worry. We'll see eh? I'm not going to write anything off and certainly it is time that the BNP got a serious scare.


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## kyser_soze (Jul 15, 2008)

Why bother opposing it when you can get pictures of everyone there and start dumping shit through their letterboxes - shit on a fascist would be a popular campaign, surely?

Was it this 'festival' that someone got the picture of some absolute hag making a v sign at the camera and looking really, really bad?


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## grogwilton (Jul 15, 2008)

.


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## grogwilton (Jul 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> We'll see eh? I'm not going to write anything off and certainly it is time that the BNP got a serious scare.



Indeed. This is the first thing in ages Ive been up for going to. Will see if I can get a car full of people to head down to this...


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## The Black Hand (Jul 15, 2008)

grogwilton said:


> Indeed. This is the first thing in ages Ive been up for going to. Will see if I can get a car full of people to head down to this...



Good man. Gonna see if I can get the Durham Miners bus for this


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## jasoon (Jul 15, 2008)

I will try come.  Can we try batter the bnp there too?  Being asain, hope this does not have any repercussions.


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## danbreen (Jul 15, 2008)

http://www.antifa.org.uk/nucleus3.32/nucleus332/


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## Flashman (Jul 15, 2008)

I think I might go, it's only down t' road. I'll try and get a few mates down n'all.


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## northernhord (Jul 15, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> What a total waste of time.
> 99% of the public have never even heard of the RWB, or what it is.
> 
> Free publicity for the fascists.



Dont go then, simple as.


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## chico enrico (Jul 15, 2008)

This is a totally pointless event.

these RW+B dos show the _real face_ of the BNP behind the carefully managed spin: the knuckle draggers and swastika tattooed nutters. At the last one one of the regional organisers glassed another one infront of the kiddies playing on the bouncy castle FFS!!!

let them get on with it, get caught out seig heiling, attacking each other and whetaver the fuck else they do and all under the media lense.

alternatively, give them the masssive PR coup of being able to say a bunch of reds stopped britains celebrating their flag and culture.

(that said, all well and good if they get kicked to fuck as they make way to the event and whatever but an organised protest/demo is just a load of self-defeating bollocks and only plays into their hands)


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## militant atheist (Jul 16, 2008)

Protested against against the RWB about four years ago when it was held at Griffin's farm near Welshpool.  Cops sealed off the town and hemmed us in for hours.  However, sympathetic local press reports along the lines of 'local anti-fascist protestors ruin BNPs big day' made it worthwhile - not to mention all the additional hassle those attending had to go through to get in.
Will try and get along to Derbyshire this year, I think.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> This is a totally pointless event.
> 
> alternatively, give them the masssive PR coup of being able to say a bunch of reds stopped britains celebrating their flag and culture.
> 
> (that said, all well and good if they get kicked to fuck as they make way to the event and whatever but an organised protest/demo is just a load of self-defeating bollocks and only plays into their hands)



I do not think this is the case. 

For starters the BNP trying to make that sort of political capital out of being protested against by REds is only going to appeal to their converted. The Reds don't want to stop the BNP celebrating their flag, they want to stop them, end of. Anti fascist PR should be put out with that in mind, detailing how BNP policies are not going to work.

Think about it - If you've got Mrs Sleepy Shires she's going to think they're extreme right chancers - she's old enough to know her politics, she may think 'rule britannia' but that is the rule of the status quo who are still in power. 

Then there's 'Yobbo yoof' on a Nottingham multicultural estate - he thinks good, about time somebody gave the bnp some stick.

There's 'redundant scab miner' from one of the pit villages in the area. He doesn't trust nobody but has a grudging respect for Arthur Scargill 'cos he was right and I was sold out'. The BNP are outsiders to him and have not earned their right to speak.

All in all its a progressive networking political class struggle event and people should think more deeply before they dismiss so easily.


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## northernhord (Jul 17, 2008)

^ Indeed, this is working class people fighting the BNP, and a broad coalition to boot, it aint those middle class reactionary pricks the SWP.

Ive read lots on urban about working class people being racist so when an event happens where its Trade unions and local activists who are working class and who are making an effort to get keep the views of those BNP scumbags out of the minds Of everyday folk this should at least be seen as doing something better than doing fuck all.

And To some of those earlier posters on this thread, Its simple really, if you dont want to go to the event and air your grievances then fair enough but dont start all the mock greek philosophical posturing and pot noodle rationalising as a means of justifying not going, its fake as fuck and as see through as a highly polished piece of glass.


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## trevhagl (Jul 17, 2008)

At the very least it will certainly embarrass the nazi sympathisers on the council who allow it to go ahead


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## durruti02 (Jul 17, 2008)

isn't this an area where the bnp have been gettung bucket loads of votes and a few cllrs .. if that is the case, is that relevant to any action?


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## revolt (Jul 18, 2008)

I'm bang up for this, even sold my ticket to V festival so I can make it! Anyone know how to get there bu public transport, whats the nearest train station ect???


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## Nigel (Jul 19, 2008)

Sounds interesting.
Keeping up a continiuty is this area is important.
try and get along, if not, hope it goes well.


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## cyberfairy (Jul 19, 2008)

BNP had a stall in Lancaster today-seemd to get no support whatsoever but the UAF got plenty when they stood in front handing out leaflets. BNP were apparently photographing them-very dodgy looking geezers-ended up being forced to leave after a lot of police interest


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## butchersapron (Jul 19, 2008)

Not AFA. AFA doesn't exist.


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## cyberfairy (Jul 19, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Not AFA. AFA doesn't exist.



Sorry, UAF...


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## butchersapron (Jul 19, 2008)

Ta. Small but important detail


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## cyberfairy (Jul 19, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Ta. Small but important detail



Thought there was a Lancaster AFA but might have got mixed up-out of interest why is it an important detail? I thought AFA stood for Anti Fascists Association and was sure there was at least one group or  figurehead with that name.


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## butchersapron (Jul 19, 2008)

cyberfairy said:


> Thought there was a Lancaster AFA but might have got mixed up-out of interest why is it an important detail? I thought AFA stood for Anti Fascists Association and was sure there was at least one group or  figurehead with that name.



AFA _was_ Anti-fascist-action. AFA lead the physical force approach to the far-right which led to the BNP's turn to electoralism. The main people behind AFA suggested that there is a political vacuum due to the mainstream parties abandonment of w/c communities, a vacuum that the far right could potentially fill and that needed to be met with not only negative physcial force but with a positive political program. The IWCA grew out of that understanding


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## cyberfairy (Jul 19, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> AFA _was_ Anti-fascist-action. AFA lead the physical force approach to the far-right which led to the BNP's turn to electoralism. The main people behind AFA suggested that there is a political vacuum due to the mainstream parties abandonment of w/c communities, a vacuum that the far right could potentially fill and that needed to be met with not only negative physcial force but with a positive political program. The IWCA grew out of that understanding



Cheers


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## Vintage Paw (Jul 19, 2008)

revolt said:


> I'm bang up for this, even sold my ticket to V festival so I can make it! Anyone know how to get there bu public transport, whats the nearest train station ect???



Derby. Not entirely sure what bus you want but head to the main bus station and you should be able to find one from there. 

Just looked at Trent Buses website, and the H1 goes hourly from Derby, via Heanor, to Codnor. Takes about 40 minutes, and is only hourly, so not that ace really.


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## sonny61 (Jul 19, 2008)

cyberfairy said:


> BNP had a stall in Lancaster today-seemd to get no support whatsoever but the UAF got plenty when they stood in front handing out leaflets. BNP were apparently photographing them-very dodgy looking geezers-ended up being forced to leave after a lot of police interest



I can well believe that the BNP got no public interest, as most political parties stalls in town centers do.

The UAF, got plenty, really?
Sounds like a SWP claim, hundreds of papers sold, new members signed up, people who were just passing by joining in, all that sort of thing, the SWP always seems to come out with.


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## cyberfairy (Jul 19, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> I can well believe that the BNP got no public interest, as most political parties stalls in town centers do.
> 
> The UAF, got plenty, really?
> Sounds like a SWP claim, hundreds of papers sold, new members signed up, people who were just passing by joining in, all that sort of thing, the SWP always seems to come out with.


I am nothing to do with SWP, was out shopping and watched peoples reactions


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## scott_forester (Jul 19, 2008)

Don't they hold these behind big fences?


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## rogue_lettuce (Jul 20, 2008)

scott_forester said:


> Don't they hold these behind big fences?



They might choose not to just to piss off the council, as that was one of the conditions they would have imposed if a license were granted.


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## butchersapron (Jul 20, 2008)

Yeah, they might. But they won't. Why on earth woukd they do that?


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## derf (Jul 20, 2008)

northernhord said:


> Stop the BNP's
> Red, White & Blue festival
> .



Cheeky bastards. Using a very nice flag as a symbol to peddle their filthy politics.
Still they expect and want demos against them. Turns a few loonies with a message of hate into a news item.
If you want to make piss them off line the route of the march without a banner in sight, stay silent and turn your backs as they pass.
That's bound to annoy the shit out of them and there is nothing they can use as positive publicity.


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## rogue_lettuce (Jul 20, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah, they might. But they won't. Why on earth woukd they do that?



Because they're about as mature as a bunch of primary school kids, and "take THAT, council!" seems like something that would roll off their tongues easily?


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## The Black Hand (Jul 20, 2008)

northernhord said:


> ^ Indeed, this is working class people fighting the BNP, and a broad coalition to boot, it aint those middle class reactionary pricks the SWP.
> 
> Ive read lots on urban about working class people being racist so when an event happens where its Trade unions and local activists who are working class and who are making an effort to get keep the views of those BNP scumbags out of the minds Of everyday folk this should at least be seen as doing something better than doing fuck all.
> 
> And To some of those earlier posters on this thread, Its simple really, if you dont want to go to the event and air your grievances then fair enough but dont start all the mock greek philosophical posturing and pot noodle rationalising as a means of justifying not going, its fake as fuck and as see through as a highly polished piece of glass.



Yes, well said.


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## Citizen66 (Jul 20, 2008)

The problem that most people already realise is that the far right are moving upwards in mainstream politics in a way that the left isn't.

You can push as much dog shit through Nazi letterboxes as you like or waste time disrupting their RWB non-events and in the mean time they've got some disgusting cunt in City Hall and some working class people are actually listening to them...

A recession is coming... this is how it starts again, doesn't it?


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## october_lost (Jul 21, 2008)

/\ /\ What s/he said, though that doesnt mean that we should allow them to organise unoppossed, but theres far too many people in these neck of the woods that are operating completely within the sphere of negative politics.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 21, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> The problem that most people already realise is that the far right are moving upwards in mainstream politics in a way that the left isn't.
> 
> You can push as much dog shit through Nazi letterboxes as you like or waste time disrupting their RWB non-events and in the mean time they've got some disgusting cunt in City Hall and some working class people are actually listening to them...
> 
> A recession is coming... this is how it starts again, doesn't it?



Give over - they are only represented in 1% of town halls. They are still an excresence on the face of Council politics. AND they know it.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 21, 2008)

october_lost said:


> /\ /\ What s/he said, though that doesnt mean that we should allow them to organise unoppossed, but theres far too many people in these neck of the woods that are operating completely within the sphere of negative politics.



We are being negative towards the BNP and positive in the knowledge that better politics and practice are what is needed. The vast majority of us are already doing it.


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## october_lost (Jul 21, 2008)

Attica said:


> We are being negative towards the BNP and positive in the knowledge that better politics and practice are what is needed. The vast majority of us are already doing it.



No. By negative politics, I mean we are being reactive rather than proactive. This is a traversty, especially when we have a chance to out flank the left in the short to meduim term.


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## trevhagl (Jul 21, 2008)

I think the trouble is is that the biggest selling newspaper in the UK has very similar politics to the fascists, so people are already brainwashed so all the BNP have to do is get their votes


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## LLETSA (Jul 21, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> I think the trouble is is that the biggest selling newspaper in the UK has very similar politics to the fascists, so people are already brainwashed so all the BNP have to do is get their votes





No mainstream newspaper has similar politics to the fascists, while it is impossible to say how many readers of a particular newspaper share its editorial viewpoint on all issues. 

Banging on about asylum and immigration and the like isn't 'having the same politics as the fascists.' The people who write this stuff in the tabloids don't even believe it themselves; they simply know that it sells.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 21, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> A) No mainstream newspaper has similar politics to the fascists, while it is impossible to say how many readers of a particular newspaper share its editorial viewpoint on all issues.
> 
> B)Banging on about asylum and immigration and the like isn't 'having the same politics as the fascists.' The people who write this stuff in the tabloids don't even believe it themselves; they simply know that it sells.



A) That is open to debate, there certainly is space for a similar broad brush right wing take on British politics and history which provides a breeding ground for fascist recruits.

B) That is another absolutism Letty. Its just not true, and there certainly are enough right wing journalists around to write the crap. Its wishful thinking to believe these people who write the right bile do not share the pov sometimes, or in some way.

C) You should go to university for a MA or something.


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## Citizen66 (Jul 21, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> The people who write this stuff in the tabloids don't even believe it themselves; they simply know that it sells.



No, they don't write it because it 'sells' !

They write it to suit the agenda of the news group and in stupid enough language for many to understand.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> AFA _was_ Anti-fascist-action. AFA lead the physical force approach to the far-right which led to the BNP's turn to electoralism. The main people behind AFA suggested that there is a political vacuum due to the mainstream parties abandonment of w/c communities, a vacuum that the far right could potentially fill and that needed to be met with not only negative physcial force but with a positive political program. The IWCA grew out of that understanding



 Shite analysis that then. Many Marxists have suggested that there is a vacuum way way before Red Action did.

You could also say that the 1970s orginators of AFA got too old to continue so hung up their direct action boots, and donned their jacket and zimmer frame.


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## LLETSA (Jul 21, 2008)

Attica said:


> A) That is open to debate, there certainly is space for a similar broad brush right wing take on British politics and history which provides a breeding ground for fascist recruits.
> 
> B) That is another absolutism Letty. Its just not true, and there certainly are enough right wing journalists around to write the crap. Its wishful thinking to believe these people who write the right bile do not share the pov sometimes, or in some way.
> 
> C) You should go to university for a MA or something.





There might be plenty of right-wing journalists around, but most of those writing for the mainstream press don't endorse the BNP and nor do right-wing papers take a consistent anti-immigrant stance. In the very same papers that rattle on about asylum you are just as likely to find an article repeating aspects of the mainstream consensus about immigration being a positive thing.

A 'right-wing take' on British politics and history has always been in the mainstream, but has less of an influence now than ever before.


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## LLETSA (Jul 21, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> No, they don't write it because it 'sells' !
> 
> They write it to suit the agenda of the news group and in stupid enough language for many to understand.





It's a terrible thing, this stupid language.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 22, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> No, they don't write it because it 'sells' !
> 
> They write it to suit the agenda of the news group and in stupid enough language for many to understand.



Selling papers is imporatnt to the Red Tops as it is where they generate 70% of their revenue (the rest comes through advertising). The reverse is true of the broadsheets; i.e. they are much more dependent on (beholden to) their adverisers who provide 70% of their incomes.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. info is from Price Waterhouse Coopers' Transaction Services (October 2004).


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 22, 2008)

Attica said:


> Shite analysis that then. Many Marxists have suggested that there is a vacuum way way before Red Action did.



You didn't read BA's post did you? It doesn't contain a claim that AFA were first, just that they did it.

Louis MacNeice


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 22, 2008)

Attica said:


> A) That is open to debate, there certainly is space for a similar broad brush right wing take on British politics and history which provides a breeding ground for fascist recruits.



Given that the Sun derives the majority of it's income from sales, this is a very worrying suggestion: i.e. a mas circulation UK daily newspaper may be broadly speaking fascist (as opposed to taking a right wing editorial line, albeit one that swerves betwen conservatism and neo-liberalism with little recogniton of the contradictions between them). 

Louis MacNeice


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## The Black Hand (Jul 22, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You didn't read BA's post did you? It doesn't contain a claim that AFA were first, just that they did it.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



FFS you missed the point. RA breath too AND suck eggs....


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## lights.out.london (Jul 22, 2008)

Any one going from London?

No Pasaran!


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## Nigel (Jul 30, 2008)

lights.out.london said:


> Any one going from London?
> 
> No Pasaran!



Can do, bring some people down?
PM us closer to the date!


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## The Black Hand (Aug 3, 2008)

Actions against the RWB have already started;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/08/405243.html


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## e19896 (Aug 3, 2008)

Attica said:


> Actions against the RWB have already started;
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/08/405243.html



STS have their office at 47 Rockingham Close Chesterfield S40 1JE, phone 01246 278754 and 07889 832076. Get in contact and tell them what you think of their support of the BNP.

Campaigns against all supporters of the BNP event will continue. We will stop the fascists! 

just in case you are to lazy to read

see you there..


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## sonny61 (Aug 4, 2008)

e19896 said:


> STS have their office at 47 Rockingham Close Chesterfield S40 1JE, phone 01246 278754 and 07889 832076. Get in contact and tell them what you think of their support of the BNP.
> 
> Campaigns against all supporters of the BNP event will continue. We will stop the fascists!
> 
> ...



Bring on the revolution! 
Next week, Griffin's bike tyres are going to be let down!

I must congratulate the anti fascist on their tactics.
Bragging all over the Internet what anti fascists intend, is by no means forewarning the Old Bill. No way!


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## e19896 (Aug 4, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> Bring on the revolution!
> Next week, Griffin's bike tyres are going to be let down!
> 
> I must congratulate the anti fascist on their tactics.
> Bragging all over the Internet what anti fascists intend, is by no means forewarning the Old Bill. No way!


*
WANKER*


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## The Black Hand (Aug 4, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> Bring on the revolution!
> Next week, Griffin's bike tyres are going to be let down!
> 
> I must congratulate the anti fascist on their tactics.
> Bragging all over the Internet what anti fascists intend, is by no means forewarning the Old Bill. No way!



DOh! The announcement of the demo means the filth are tooling up - you know nothing.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 4, 2008)

e19896 said:


> *
> WANKER*



Agreed.


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## sonny61 (Aug 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> DOh! The announcement of the demo means the filth are tooling up - you know nothing.



The British police are the best in the world, and I am sure the cells will be overflowing if you decide to be naughty middle class boys.
If your really lucky, maybe your get to share a cell with a fascist.

After all the bragging and puffing your chests out(not to mention the free publicity given to the BNP).
  If the BNP thingy is not stopped, then your going to look a complete bunch of knobs.

My money is on the police, after all the free intelligence supplied to them by anti fascists.
Policing a rural area is much easier than inner cities.

The way to beat the BNP is through the ballot box. Not serving time, which some anti fascists may be doing.

I suspect all this threat of violence is a bluff, otherwise why have the police been given such warning?
Threats of violence, can carry lengthy jail terms, even if it is a bluff.


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## e19896 (Aug 4, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> The British police are the best in the world, and I am sure the cells will be overflowing if you decide to be naughty middle class boys.
> If your really lucky, maybe your get to share a cell with a fascist.
> 
> After all the bragging and puffing your chests out(not to mention the free publicity given to the BNP).
> ...



ask those who know me, and take a look at some of them i wonder how there faces ended up mashed up? middle class indeed do you you know what your talking about you sound like one of them, if you are going lets meet, my boots would like to do walking see you there wanker..


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## sonny61 (Aug 4, 2008)

Well maybe your working class, I presume most of the anti fascists are middle class.

My experience of the far left was from uni, and those in the  Labour party, during the dark days of Tory rule, when they seemed determined to destroy the party.

Follow the path you have chosen, and see where it gets you.


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## e19896 (Aug 4, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> Well maybe your working class, I presume most of the anti fascists are middle class.
> 
> My experience of the far left was from uni, and those in the  Labour party, during the dark days of Tory rule, when they seemed determined to destroy the party.
> 
> Follow the path you have chosen, and see where it gets you.



so you do not want to meet, aged 43 and been at this from the age of 14, and still we are dealing with people like you, as if we did not have enough to deal with?


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## october_lost (Aug 5, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> Well maybe your working class, I presume most of the anti fascists are middle class.
> 
> My experience of the far left was from uni, and those in the  Labour party, during the dark days of Tory rule, when they seemed determined to destroy the party.


So no recent experience then


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## lights.out.london (Aug 5, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> Well maybe your working class, I presume most of the anti fascists are middle class.
> 
> My experience of the far left was from uni, and those in the  Labour party, during the dark days of Tory rule, when they seemed determined to destroy the party.
> 
> Follow the path you have chosen, and see where it gets you.



"...I presume...".

You presume wrong.

...and what is more heinious? A middle-class "Guardian reader"-type, actively commited to the end of fascist politics and parties/groups in this country, or a committed fascist activist hiding behind the 'respectable' facade of the BNP?

My enemies' enemy....


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## chico enrico (Aug 5, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> No mainstream newspaper has similar politics to the fascists, while it is impossible to say how many readers of a particular newspaper share its editorial viewpoint on all issues.
> 
> Banging on about asylum and immigration and the like isn't 'having the same politics as the fascists.' The people who write this stuff in the tabloids don't even believe it themselves; they simply know that it sells.



not strictly true. the Sun now has a Polish edition and the BNP are actively courting the Polish vote. the latter being a very dangerous development as anyone with any knowledge of the eastern european far right will understand.


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## LLETSA (Aug 5, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> not strictly true. the Sun now has a Polish edition and the BNP are actively courting the Polish vote. the latter being a very dangerous development as anyone with any knowledge of the eastern european far right will understand.





Most Poles are not fascist sympathisers and never have been, while the kind of Poles who come to work here are, by and large, the ones least likely to fall for the BNP's unworkable crap. 

In any case, the Polish edition of the Sun is not advising anybody to vote for the BNP; in fact it gives out the same mixed messages of the English edition: insincere anti-asylum sentiment etc, while elsewhere praising the contributions of immigrants to British society and, when the subject comes up, condemning the BNP.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 5, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Most Poles are not fascist sympathisers and never have been, while the kind of Poles who come to work here are, by and large, the ones least likely to fall for the BNP's unworkable crap.
> 
> In any case, the Polish edition of the Sun is not advising anybody to vote for the BNP; in fact it gives out the same mixed messages of the English edition: insincere anti-asylum sentiment etc, while elsewhere praising the contributions of immigrants to British society and, when the subject comes up, condemning the BNP.



Didn't know you spoke and read Polish?


----------



## LLETSA (Aug 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> Didn't know you spoke and read Polish?





Actually, I did learn a fair bit when I was visiting the country on a fairly regular basis about fifteen years ago, although most of it has fallen into disrepair.

I take your point though-the devious Murdoch empire may well be putting out a 'Nazi' edition of the Sun in Polish, especially for Poles working here. It's utterly concerning.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> Didn't know you spoke and read Polish?



Answer it and leave and the bullshite pls.


----------



## LLETSA (Aug 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> Answer it and leave and the bullshite pls.





I did answer it. (See above.) I even acknowledged your implied point that there might be a 'Nazi' edition of the Sun aimed at historically fascistic Poles, with the aim of getting them to vote BNP. Non-Poles may not know about this due to their inability to read Polish.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> Didn't know you spoke and read Polish?



Answer it and leave out the bullshite.


----------



## lights.out.london (Aug 5, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> not strictly true. the Sun now has a Polish edition and the BNP are actively courting the Polish vote. the latter being a very dangerous development as anyone with any knowledge of the eastern european far right will understand.



Righteous. Good post.


----------



## chico enrico (Aug 6, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Most Poles are not fascist sympathisers and never have been, while the kind of Poles who come to work here are, by and large, the ones least likely to fall for the BNP's unworkable crap.
> 
> In any case, the Polish edition of the Sun is not advising anybody to vote for the BNP; in fact it gives out the same mixed messages of the English edition: insincere anti-asylum sentiment etc, while elsewhere praising the contributions of immigrants to British society and, when the subject comes up, condemning the BNP.



yes. i know that on both counts.

however the BNP are actively courting the Polish vote. fact. have a look at their site.


----------



## LLETSA (Aug 6, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> yes. i know that on both counts.
> 
> however the BNP are actively courting the Polish vote. fact. have a look at their site.




I never denied they were; I said they're unlikely to make significant inroads into it.

If you know the Sun isn't exactly calling for a BNP vote why make connections between the two issues in a single post?


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 6, 2008)

There is an alternative event on the Saturday in Derby for anyone in the area. Full details are on Facebook here http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=29179625571&ref=ts  but for those of you not on facebook it runs from noon until midnight, with a BBQ and DJs during the day and the main event in the evening from 7-11 ish

Local producer Baby J (who has worked with Mark Ronson and Amy Winehouse) is promoting this and Asher D from So Solid Crew is playing. 

It's at the West End Community Centre on Mackworth Road in Derby, if you are Sat-Navving it's DE22 3BL

Admission is Free.............


(ok'd with site Editor)


----------



## october_lost (Aug 6, 2008)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> There is an alternative event on the Saturday in Derby for anyone in the area. Full details are on Facebook here http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=29179625571&ref=ts  but for those of you not on facebook it runs from noon until midnight, with a BBQ and DJs during the day and the main event in the evening from 7-11 ish
> 
> Local producer Baby J (who has worked with Mark Ronson and Amy Winehouse) is promoting this and Asher D from So Solid Crew is playing.
> 
> ...


Even before I looked at the site I knew it would be the splitters doing theyre best to capitalise using PR rather than engaging in political activity, and low and behold I was right


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 6, 2008)

october_lost said:


> Even before I looked at the site I knew it would be the splitters doing theyre best to capitalise using PR rather than engaging in political activity, and low and behold I was right




Eh? 

I know I'm a bit thick but can you explain to me what you me, please 

EDIT did you misunderstand me? This is an alternative event to the Red White and Blue festival, not an alternative to any action at the site, which we strongly support.

Our target audience is anyone and everyone, but we are particularly hoping to attract young people who wouldn't dream of going on a political march/rally...


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 6, 2008)

I think he means How alternative is it  it's done by LMHR? They're an swp front, so one part of the argument.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 6, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I think he means How alternative is it it's done by LMHR? They're an swp front, so one part of the argument.


 
Party pooper.


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 6, 2008)

OK I need to make it clear I'm not in the SWP (nor any other political party). I am a member of city-zen who are doing the daytime warm-up stuff (DJs and BBQ), but I need to make it clear I am speaking on a personal basis here.

 As far as I know none of the City-zen team are members of SWP or any political party, although I couldn't vouch for that.  

We are aware of the SWP angle, and I'm not their biggest fan, but I consider them a far lesser evil than the BNP, and me and the rest of City-zen team are happy to be involved in this.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 6, 2008)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> OK I need to make it clear I'm not in the SWP (nor any other political party). I am a member of city-zen who are doing the daytime warm-up stuff (DJs and BBQ), but I need to make it clear I am speaking on a personal basis here.
> 
> As far as I know none of the City-zen team are members of SWP or any political party, although I couldn't vouch for that.
> 
> We are aware of the SWP angle, and I'm not their biggest fan, but I consider them a far lesser evil than the BNP, and me and the rest of City-zen team are happy to be involved in this.


 
You appear rather sensible, makes a change from the dipsticks posting.


----------



## rogue_lettuce (Aug 6, 2008)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> This is an alternative event to the Red White and Blue festival, not an alternative to any action at the site, which we strongly support.



Surely if it's on the same date, in a different place, then one couldn't possibly go to the Red White and Blue festival to take action AND go to the Red Black and Green festival? In which case, surely it IS an alternative to any action at the site? 
And presenting it as "an alternative event to" the BNP fest makes it sound like you're offering people two choices of how to express their White Nationalism


----------



## october_lost (Aug 6, 2008)

MC5 said:


> You appear rather sensible, makes a change from the dipsticks posting.



Are you going to address what I said or just engage in smears?


----------



## october_lost (Aug 6, 2008)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> OK I need to make it clear I'm not in the SWP (nor any other political party). I am a member of city-zen who are doing the daytime warm-up stuff (DJs and BBQ), but I need to make it clear I am speaking on a personal basis here.
> 
> As far as I know none of the City-zen team are members of SWP or any political party, although I couldn't vouch for that.
> 
> We are aware of the SWP angle, and I'm not their biggest fan, but I consider them a far lesser evil than the BNP, and me and the rest of City-zen team are happy to be involved in this.



It wasn't a crack at you, if you follow the thread the SWP have basically decided to do their entirest to avoid getting onto a broad based campaign and this includes holdsing an alternative event. They have basically behaved in a very sectarian manner and its all too typical of them...


----------



## audiotech (Aug 6, 2008)

october_lost said:


> Are you going to address what I said or just engage in smears?


 
You barked "splitters", which turned out to be wrong and that was it wasn't it?


----------



## october_lost (Aug 7, 2008)

MC5 said:


> You barked "splitters", which turned out to be wrong and that was it wasn't it?



How so, the SWP uses one front instead of another, have you not sussed this yet?


----------



## rioted (Aug 7, 2008)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> OK I need to make it clear....


The SWP prey on the naive, that's one of the reasons some of us hate them. Could you give us some idea of timeline? When was the r/b/g festival mooted? Were any of those organising against the BNP festival informed or involved?


----------



## audiotech (Aug 7, 2008)

october_lost said:


> How so, the SWP uses one front instead of another, have you not sussed this yet?


 


> Originally Posted by *october_lost*
> 
> 
> _Even before I looked at the site I knew it would be the splitters doing theyre best to capitalise using PR rather than engaging in political activity, and low and behold I was right_




_No, you were wrong._

_



			OK I need to make it clear I'm not in the SWP (nor any other political party). I am a member of city-zen who are doing the daytime warm-up stuff (DJs and BBQ), but I need to make it clear I am speaking on a personal basis here.

As far as I know none of the City-zen team are members of SWP or any political party, although I couldn't vouch for that. 

We are aware of the SWP angle, and I'm not their biggest fan, but I consider them a far lesser evil than the BNP, and me and the rest of City-zen team are happy to be involved in this.
		
Click to expand...

_
_I've sussed out that City-zen is not a front for the SWP. Have you yet?_


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 7, 2008)

The front is LMHR. Don't play so coy. _No one_ is accusing City-zen of being an SWP front.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 7, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> The front is LMHR. Don't play so coy. _No one_ is accusing City-zen of being an SWP front.


 
I'll leave the post from from october_lost and the reply from Oswaldtwistle hanging.


----------



## october_lost (Aug 8, 2008)

MC5 said:


> [/I]
> 
> _No, you were wrong._



No I wasn't, LMHR is definitely the SWP.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2008)

MC5 said:


> _I've sussed out that City-zen is not a front for the SWP. Have you yet?_



Is there an organisation called that? 

It's the name of a London estate agents too that deals with city-boy dwellings.

http://www.cityzenproperties.co.uk/


----------



## audiotech (Aug 8, 2008)

october_lost said:


> No I wasn't, LMHR is definitely the SWP.


 
Whatever.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2008)

Brilliant. Bye.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 8, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Brilliant. Bye.


 
see, ya.


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2008)

City-Zen was something set up by one of the more infrequent Urbanites on P/P

Jegsy or something, a student in Derby, amazed to see its still going


----------



## october_lost (Aug 8, 2008)

Would that be jonesy?


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 13, 2008)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> There is an alternative event on the Saturday in Derby for anyone in the area. playing.
> 
> It's at the West End Community Centre on Mackworth Road in Derby...



This has now been CANCELLED. I don't know why, it is on police advice.

I know no more than that.


----------



## october_lost (Aug 15, 2008)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> This has now been CANCELLED. I don't know why, it is on police advice.
> 
> I know no more than that.



Nice to see they complied, we all know the police as everyones interests at heart.


----------



## Workers friend (Aug 15, 2008)

I hope this event is a good one for our side The Anti Nazis that is in case anybodies wondering.


----------



## Rabidrodent (Aug 16, 2008)

Media reporting Antifa attack the po-leece outside gates of festival.

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/BNP-protestors-descend-Derbyshire-village/article-272444-detail/article.html

Go Antifa Go!


----------



## treelover (Aug 16, 2008)

Looks like the anti-BNP protest has had a poor turn out, much less than Welling, perhaps a tacit acknowledgement that this is not the 90's and the politics is different. As I have said before less of the grand standing, more focus on the issues that are affecting the working class.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 16, 2008)

treelover said:


> Looks like the anti-BNP protest has had a poor turn out, much less than Welling, perhaps a tacit acknowledgement that this is not the 90's and the politics is different. As I have said before less of the grand standing, more focus on the issues that are affecting the working class.


 
Do keep up, the picket was restricted to 30 and the march to 700 by the old bill.


----------



## treelover (Aug 16, 2008)

But there is only about 400 on the march?


----------



## audiotech (Aug 16, 2008)

treelover said:


> But there is only about 400 on the march?


 
I didn't realise you were counting.


----------



## trevhagl (Aug 16, 2008)

treelover said:


> Looks like the anti-BNP protest has had a poor turn out, much less than Welling, perhaps a tacit acknowledgement that this is not the 90's and the politics is different. As I have said before less of the grand standing, more focus on the issues that are affecting the working class.




The "jobs and homes not racism" is a good idea. It has been too easy for the BNP to portray anti fascists as loony lefty PC types whose issues are irrelevant to the working class. We need to show that New Labour are almost as right wing as the nazis themselves therefore going one step further is not the solution. Labour are failing BECAUSE they are Tories, not because they are left wing


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 16, 2008)

northernhord said:


> Dont go then, simple as.



Remember mate, you're not allowed to key the cars of BNP members or certain posters will get all self-righteous on your arse.


----------



## JHE (Aug 16, 2008)

According to BBC radio news, about 40 demonstrators stoned police.


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 16, 2008)

I didn't see that, and I was there. Some jostling of the police, but I saw no stones.

EDIT It may have been after most of us marched back to the village to disperse. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/7565354.stm - the police admit most people behaved 'impeccably', which they did.


----------



## Tokyo (Aug 16, 2008)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> I didn't see that, and I was there. Some jostling of the police, but I saw no stones.
> 
> EDIT It may have been after most of us marched back to the village to disperse. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/7565354.stm - the police admit most people behaved 'impeccably', which they did.



Would this be the Antifa action at the site?  I was at the Notts Stop the BNP/UAF demo from about 10:30 until about 14:30 and saw a bit of pushing and shoving, but no stone throwing and not even any arrests.

While it's possible something kicked off later, at least half the crowd had left by 14:30.




			
				Treelover said:
			
		

> Looks like the anti-BNP protest has had a poor turn out, much less than Welling, perhaps a tacit acknowledgement that this is not the 90's and the politics is different. As I have said before less of the grand standing, more focus on the issues that are affecting the working class.



I thought that the demo measured up to expectations.  I reckon that there were around 500 - 600 at the initial rally (about 100 UAF, which was fewer than I expected, the rest largely linked to Notts Stop the BNP to some extent, a fair few of them local).  I felt that the march had slightly fewer - I guess a few older folk didn't think they could make it, or perhaps some people who attended the rally just weren't up for it.  The UAF rally afterwards started with 500 - 600 again, but about half had drifted off by the time I left, half an hour in.

The Notts campaign is genuinely addressing issues that are affecting the working class.  It's true that this demo did that less directly, but I reckon it achieved its aim of showing mass opposition to the festival, led by a local campaign, and making it more difficult for the BNP to hold a similar event next year.




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> Do keep up, the picket was restricted to 30 and the march to 700 by the old bill.



Actually, the signs posted up with regulations stated that the rallies were limited to 700 and the march didn't have a limit, but as the march was marshalled to and from the location of the rallies, it'd be difficult to have had more than that and complied with the regulations.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 17, 2008)

JHE said:


> According to BBC radio news, about 40 demonstrators stoned police.



So the police got stoned. No wonder they downgraded it.


----------



## october_lost (Aug 17, 2008)

The beeb says 33 were arrested and the Derby news says 40 people were involved, clearly the later numbers are complete fantasy.


----------



## urbanrevolt (Aug 17, 2008)

I didn't count every one but I'd have thought 5-600 is accurate.  It was good but the UAF were shit, Weyamn Bennet telling police to move Notts Stop the BNP demonstrators from front of the crowd, SWP elders telling more enthusiastic members to stop pushing and even trying to stage sitdown (as opposed to trying to break through police lines)- fortunatley most ignored them and even those stiting down got up again.

Bob Crow was quite good.  The earlier protest at the farm sounded good but would have been better to take place at the same time that the main rally got to top of the hill and near farm- may have bene diffiuclt to co-ordinate I guess and good on them for trying.  

Most locals seemed bemused and a few even hostile- two still hated the BNP but thought we were just as bad and one elderly tory (at a guess) thought we were worse but most I spoke to (about twenty or so) were reasonably sympathetic if bemnused at first- of course quite a few from local villages and towns were on demo.

It was good in all but UAF directing police to remove demonstrators was disgraceful if not surprising.


----------



## urbanrevolt (Aug 17, 2008)

I'm guessing the arrests (unless they are exaggeration) are from the seperate action earlier.


----------



## urbanrevolt (Aug 17, 2008)

More clarification here http://infantile-and-disorderly.blogspot.com/2008/08/bnp-rally-goes-ahead.html


----------



## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Aug 17, 2008)

urbanrevolt said:


> I didn't count every one but I'd have thought 5-600 is accurate.  It was good but the UAF were shit, Weyamn Bennet telling police to move Notts Stop the BNP demonstrators from front of the crowd, SWP elders telling more enthusiastic members to stop pushing and even trying to stage sitdown (as opposed to trying to break through police lines)- fortunatley most ignored them and even those stiting down got up again.
> 
> Bob Crow was quite good.  The earlier protest at the farm sounded good but would have been better to take place at the same time that the main rally got to top of the hill and near farm- may have bene diffiuclt to co-ordinate I guess and good on them for trying.
> 
> ...



Was it UAF who told police to remove demonstrators or somebody from uaf who told police to move on demonstrators?


----------



## barney_pig (Aug 17, 2008)

perhaps weyman was pointing out who hAd stolen his mobile


----------



## urbanrevolt (Aug 17, 2008)

CUMBRIANDRAGON said:


> Was it UAF who told police to remove demonstrators or somebody from uaf who told police to move on demonstrators?



It was Weyman Bennet.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 17, 2008)

urbanrevolt said:


> It was Weyman Bennet.


this is really really ooo .. what evidence do you have?? .. if it is as you say this shoudl be made a really big issue .. to have called an alternate demo was bad enough but this is fucking outrageous ..


----------



## urbanrevolt (Aug 17, 2008)

only that i witnessed it- plus quite a few others I'd guess.


----------



## urbanrevolt (Aug 17, 2008)

It was also outrageous that they sent a delegation- negotiated with the police to allow only 30 hand selected out whilst the police held back the rest.  I mean as a tactic I'd oppose it as symbolic and self-limiiting- we should all pass!  But IF it had been put to the rally and we'd voted for it then although I'd have been against it and still pushed for us to be allowed to go I think it would be dfendable- a mistake but not out of order.

But to negotaite privately with the police with not a word to the rally- that's not on.  

We should make something out of the very poor tactics and the attemtp to sow division.  But most of all we need to build a biggerbetter and more deep rooted and better organised demo next time.  The banners Houseds and Hiosptials not racism were a good idea as is orgnaising in local communities for campaigns not just agianst the BNP but against the cuases- poverty, poor housing priovatisation etc.  obviously we welcome UAF, SWP anbd anyone else and shouldn't exclude them but also shouldn't let them take over and dictate terms


----------



## mk12 (Aug 18, 2008)

> Most locals seemed bemused and a few even hostile



Does this fact have any bearing on your tactics? Or do you just shrug and think, "so what"?


----------



## urbanrevolt (Aug 18, 2008)

mk12 said:


> Does this fact have any bearing on your tactics? Or do you just shrug and think, "so what"?



well obviously not which is why it was mentioned.

It should have big bearing- first of all taklking to people, explaining what we're up to- most (but if I'm honest not all) semed failry sympathetic

second- taking on board what people say

third asking them what response they want

Don't get me wrong- there were quite a few people on the march from that area.  And quite  alot of passers-by were supportive but a number were bemused, curious etc.

Longer term it obviously needs a deep =rooted campaign not just in Derbyshire but probably more urgently in e.g. Stoke to address the problems of working class people and why a few vote BNP (and even in their best areas it is only a minority) but their concerns need to be listened to which is why I mentioned it.


----------



## treelover (Aug 18, 2008)

measured comment UR, but while only a 'few' may vote BNP, one can be certain many many more are concerned about mass migration, the 'no borders' stance of much of the left, just like CND in the 80's, will never convince them.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 18, 2008)

**hang on**


----------



## october_lost (Aug 18, 2008)

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/n...icle-273452-detail/article.html#StartComments
http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/n...icle-273516-detail/article.html#StartComments


----------



## Zachor (Aug 18, 2008)

october_lost said:


> http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/n...icle-273452-detail/article.html#StartComments
> http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/n...icle-273516-detail/article.html#StartComments



Its quite frightening to see just how many positive comments towards bnp.  OK some of them are obvious bnp plants but quite a few are not.

Worryingly it seems as if the idiotic actions of the so called antifash have been compared with the less antisocial way that the bnp behaved.

The result of this is that many of the locals are now prejudiced against the rantifascist cause.

Yet again has the Left / anarcho antifash shot themselves in the feet with both  barrels.

Time and time again the same old failed and indeed counterproductive confrontational demos with the police have been done only to see the bnp rise.

This is not 1936.  This is not Cable Street.  This new sort of fascism needs to be fought in a different way.

The Swaps and the ANL managed to  reduce support for antifash parties in Dagenham for example by getting a bunch of plastic revolutionaries to scream 'nazi' at ordinary people who were right on the edge economically and socially.  

To see yet another anti fash failiure is beyond sad.  Its criminal.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 18, 2008)

Nothing that happened here this weekend matters one way or the other. It's irrelavent. Don't build cases on it.


----------



## october_lost (Aug 18, 2008)

Zachor, the aim of the mobilisation was to disrupt the event so it would have problems finding a venue in the future. I think feelings towards the actions maybe mixed but surely your viewing it through the perspective of the media etc


----------



## mk12 (Aug 18, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Nothing that happened here this weekend matters one way or the other. It's irrelavent. Don't build cases on it.



True.


----------



## urbanrevolt (Aug 18, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Nothing that happened here this weekend matters one way or the other. It's irrelavent. Don't build cases on it.



Not true I'd say. Action can bring about changes.   If we build a strike in a school against privatisation and the academy is put off then it is a result.  if we stop a deportation it is a result.  Action can work.

So it's true that nothing we do makes any difference.  Did 600 people demostrating against the BNP stop them.  No.  But it showed a lot of people don't buy thier message of race hatred and it gave us an opportunity to speak to local people many of whom (most out of the 30 or so I spoke to) sympathised with what were saying with 3 saying we were just as much to blame.  

Some of the comments in the local rag show there's a long way to go but those sort of forums are not really representative any more than this one is (well may be a bit more but hardly truly repsentative).

Treelover- true the fact that most people don't like the BNP doesn't mean they're won to opposing deportations in general.  Fair enough.

But two points-
1) change comes though organising around issues people care about already and eventually there can be sea changes in people's view not just or pirmarily by discussions but in the context of joint action (for example many working class people came to oppose slavery in 19the centrue Britain read Bury the Chains book)
2) even it is unpopular I won't stop opposing forcible deportations- actually sometiems campaigns can gain a lot of local support e.g. Sukula campaign in Bolton (which we won btw)

Saturday was the start of a process.  I think the Notts Stop the BNP led campaign as opposed to the UAF leaders is a helathy one- it needs to evolve and develop but was it worth starting the process.  Sure it was.

More reports http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2008/08/18/we-challenged-bnp-next-year-we-must-stop-them

http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/2261


----------



## urbanrevolt (Aug 18, 2008)

Also treelover fair and important points but scratch below the surface of concerns over mass migration and they're about job insecurty, poor housing, crap services, crime, crap living conditions etc.  We can find common causes and campaigns on this and must- even whilst we continue to disagree with some on migration or even racism- so whilst I would disagree with some working class people on some of these issues this doesn't stop me having joint campaigns to save a housing estate or get more investment or fight privatisation.  It is essential and that is how we will get change if we do through common action and discussion along the way,.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 18, 2008)

I don't think you've made your case at all there UR. In fact, you've said nothing.


----------



## urbanrevolt (Aug 18, 2008)

If you say so!


----------



## urbanrevolt (Aug 19, 2008)

But to give it a slightly more serious response.  Are you saying no action is ever going to change anything?  If so then pointing to specific campaigns whether strikes against acedemies, anti deportation campaigns or antiracist camapigns that get people from different communities talking and organising together is useful.  There are examples where campaigning works.

Now may be you;d agree but you think having a demo against the BNP doesn't.  But if several hundred local residents and trade unionists from local areas and further afiled come together under the banner of homes and hospitals not racism and start a dialogue with local people and begin to initiate campaigns as the Amber Valley and Notts Stop the BNP camapigsn are beginning to do then I think it does begin a process where people can become more confident to confront the BNP and to ahve camapigns and actions to save jobs, to fight for high quality public services.  I think that's worth a go. Will I convince butchersapron that change is possible- may be not.  But others seemed to also think we could begin to make a difference so I won't lose sleep over it but thanks for your concern.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 19, 2008)

No. I'm saying.



> Nothing that happened here this weekend matters one way or the other. It's irrelavent. Don't build cases on it.



Stop the trot waffling.

If i wanted to say anything as thick as



> no action is ever going to change anything?



I would have.


----------



## urbanrevolt (Aug 19, 2008)

well ok but if you accept that action can change things then having demonstrations, leafletting local people, beginning a process of engaging with issues like housing, hospitals, schools etc. issues people are exercised by (and this means asking them) is a beginning.  I'd say nothing that happened here last weekend is vital but it all matters as it's beginning to engage with the issues.

Thanks anyway for raising thgis because I think it's always worth thinking about what we do and whether it actually has any positive or negative effect.


----------



## grogwilton (Aug 19, 2008)

Zachor:

The reports appear to come from the residents living near the farm, of which there arent that many, it being a farm. At least one of the neighbours, a family, was heavily involved with the Notts campaign, so much so that they spoke from the platform twice. 

The reports also seem to complain as much about the noise from the festival and nazi saluting by drunks as about antifa. 

Im pretty sure the reaction urbanrevolt got is more representative then these newspaper forums, I find very, very few people ever post on these things as few people read their local press online, much less post on the stories. Many of the people writing there are BNP plants, some of them are intelligent enough BNP plants to put 'Codby local' instead of 'obvious knuckle dragging unionist from Northern Ireland.'


----------



## barney_pig (Aug 19, 2008)

new lies from the trots


> A lively and militant demo of over 500 Unite Against Fascism activists took to the streets of Codnor, Derbyshire, to oppose the Nazi BNP’s Red, White and Blue festival, on Saturday 16 August.
> 
> UAF mobilised a large number of local trade unions and anti-racist groups. There was a particularly good turn out from the CWU, RMT, Unison and teaching unions.
> 
> But, no sooner had the demonstration gathered the police announced that the demo could not take place. _UAF activists had to push through the police lines and take the road. _It was only after this that the police let the march take place.


collaborate with becomes push through...
http://www.swp.org.uk/


----------



## Fullyplumped (Aug 19, 2008)

This, from the Drink-Soaked Trotskyite Popinjays, is most odd. 

It purports to be an SWP petition / name-and-address gathering sheet relating to the "Stop the red white and blue festival" campaign, which says people should oppose the Nazi BNP because 

_"they deny the holocaust where thousands of LGBT people, trade unionists and disabled people were slaughtered."_ 

No mention of Jews (or, to be fair, any other ethnic group). Given that Jews were by far the largest group slaughtered in the Holocaust, it seems odd that they are not mentioned in its propaganda relating to the campaign.

Can anyone confirm that the petition form pictured in the Drink-soaked Trots blog is genuine? And would anyone involved in the SWP care to comment on the organisation's views on Jews and the holocaust, and why it omitted to mention Jewish victims?  Maybe there wasn't space.


added - I note that the original poster on the Drink-soaked Trots blog links to the AWL website which may have been the original source of this.


----------



## Zachor (Aug 19, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:


> This, from the Drink-Soaked Trotskyite Popinjays, is most odd.
> 
> It purports to be an SWP petition / name-and-address gathering sheet relating to the "Stop the red white and blue festival" campaign, which says people should oppose the Nazi BNP because
> 
> ...


Fullyplumped, I don't always agree with your POV but you've done a great service putting this up.

This is an appalling action on the part of the Trots/SWP.  To leave out mention of the group which made up the majority of the victims of the Holocaust cannot be just excused away as 'a slip' as was the reply from some presumably swappie weasel on the AWL site.

Yet again we have one of the major UK non mainstream parties of the left doing something that could quite legitimately be described as antisemitism by omission.  This is more than just spouting bollocks about zioinism not the Jewish people being a problem.  This is an indication of some of the underlying sympathies and prejudices of the SWP.  It is also an indication possibly of how many shots the Islamists associated with SWP and its front groups are calling.

The fact that this matter was not challenged at any time and was put out in thename of two mainstream high profile organisations is disgusting.

The only outcome of this will be a deterioration in community relations not an improvement.

Way to go swaps - NOT


----------



## Fullyplumped (Aug 19, 2008)

If it's true, Zachor.


----------



## Zachor (Aug 19, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:


> If it's true, Zachor.



Of course.  I looked at the original doc and it looked like a genuine swappie doc to me.

MInd you the fucking swaps have got form for the dodgy company they keep.   GG and crew for instance.

If all can be proved then it gives more weight to the arguments that bigotry is endemic in both halves of the party formerly known as Respect


----------



## Fullyplumped (Aug 19, 2008)

Zachor said:


> Of course.  I looked at the original doc and it looked like a genuine swappie doc to me.
> 
> MInd you the fucking swaps have got form for the dodgy company they keep.   GG and crew for instance.
> 
> If all can be proved then it gives more weight to the arguments that bigotry is endemic in both halves of the party formerly known as Respect



Certainly, the reports on this event in socialist worker on line don't discuss the Holocaust. But their archives give full coverage. This piece by the academic Henry Maitles in 2005, is very clear about what happened. 
_The Nazis were the barbaric product of the crisis of capitalism in Germany between the wars and the Holocaust was a product of their twisted world outlook which had at its heart the notion that the Jews were a subhuman enemy. The Holocaust became central to the Nazis, while the Nazis and the successful outcome of the war were central to the interests of German capital.

The German invasion of the USSR in 1941 unleashed murder on a vast scale. The Nazis found they now controlled areas with many millions of Jews—there were less than half a million within the borders of Germany itself. Forced Jewish emigration from the lands the Nazis controlled was no longer an issue. The “solution to the Jewish problem” was to murder them.

In the first week of the invasion more Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen (the SS killing squads) than in the previous eight years of Nazi rule in Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia and half of Poland. 

Indeed, until mid-1941, there were more communists and socialists in Nazi concentration camps than Jews. 

The Einsatzgruppen moved in behind the German army. One historian summed up what happened in the city of Bialystok, which had some 50,000 Jews, when the Nazis entered on 27 June 1941: “Dante-esque scenes took place in these streets. Jews were taken out of the houses, put against the walls and shot... At least 800 Jews had been locked in the Great Synagogue before it had been set on fire...the soldiers were throwing hand grenades into the houses.”​_Good, passionate stuff. Even just over a year ago, Henry was writing about the Holocaust for Socialist Worker. It would be sad if their turn towards the religious zealots led them to forget this.


----------



## JHE (Aug 19, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:


> This, from the Drink-Soaked Trotskyite Popinjays, is most odd.
> 
> It purports to be an SWP petition / name-and-address gathering sheet relating to the "Stop the red white and blue festival" campaign, which says people should oppose the Nazi BNP because
> 
> ...



Much as I despise the Social Workers' Party and particularly its Anti-Zionism and its Islamophilia, I cannot go along with any attempt to slag off the Social Workers for noting that "thousands of LGBT people, trade unionists and disabled people were slaughtered" in the Nazis' extermination programmes.

Anyone who sees anything sinister in the supposed omission of Jews (or Gypsies) from that little list is a fool.  If we have to read anything into the supposed omission, it should just be that the Social Worker who wrote the leaflet thought the readers of the leaflet (including 'LGBT' people, TUists & disabled people) might well not know that "thousands of LGBT people, trade unionists and disabled people were slaughtered", while taking it for granted that we all know that many Jews were murdered.



PS:

1.   While it's true to say that "Jews were by far the largest group slaughtered in the Holocaust", it is worth mentioning in any discussion of Nazi extermination programmes that there were millions of other people too.  I believe the generally accepted figures are that 12 million people were murdered, half of whom were Jews.

2.  Calling the BNP Nazi seems to me untrue, daft and unconvincing to most people, but that's a different argument...


----------



## Fullyplumped (Aug 19, 2008)

Well, let's hear from SWP adherents if they think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Surprising amount of goodwill here!


----------



## Zachor (Aug 19, 2008)

JHE said:


> Much as I despise the Social Workers' Party and particularly its Anti-Zionism and its Islamophilia, I cannot go along with any attempt to slag off the Social Workers for noting that "thousands of LGBT people, trade unionists and disabled people were slaughtered" in the Nazis' extermination programmes.
> .



I agree it was right to mention the others but what would it have taken to mention ALL the victims.  


JHE said:


> Anyone who sees anything sinister in the supposed omission of Jews (or Gypsies) from that little list is a fool.
> .



Not necessarily.  Taken with the Swaps other actions it doesn't look too much like an accident.


JHE said:


> If we have to read anything into the supposed omission, it should just be that the Social Worker who wrote the leaflet thought the readers of the leaflet (including 'LGBT' people, TUists & disabled people) might well not know that "thousands of LGBT people, trade unionists and disabled people were slaughtered", while taking it for granted that we all know that many Jews were murdered.
> .



Agree there but still think that leaving out the major group showed where the swaps sympathies lie.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 19, 2008)

JHE said:


> Calling the BNP Nazi seems to me untrue, daft and unconvincing to most people, but that's a different argument...





O rly? Try telling that to the Denby residents who had to endure these useless fucking cunts doing Hitler salutes outside their homes during the ungodly hours, or more to the point all those people who've been beaten up by these gangsters for having the wrong coloured skin.


----------



## Zachor (Aug 19, 2008)

Jeff Robinson said:


> O rly? Try telling that to the Denby residents who had to endure these useless fucking cunts doing Hitler salutes outside their homes during the ungodly hours, or more to the point all those people who've been beaten up by these gangsters for having the wrong coloured skin.



Maybe it would have been better to have just had some film crews documenting what wankers they are and hanging them by their own ropes rather than pandering to the plastic revolutionaries and having a ruck with the old bill?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 19, 2008)

Or maybe your hero Boris "lol" Johnson could have helped the anti-fascist cause by publishing another article arguing that black people were genetically inferior to whites?


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## Zachor (Aug 19, 2008)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Or maybe your hero Boris "lol" Johnson could have helped the anti-fascist cause by publishing another article arguing that black people were genetically inferior to whites?



This isn't the issue here and you know it.

What is the issue is what is the best way to beat these fash fuckers.  The problem is the anti's kicking off distracted attention from the bnp.  Not distract attention in a good way but meant that attention went to the behaviour of the antis and not the disgusting bnp.

If people want to go and have a row with the old bill take up footie aggro not antifash activity.

Parachuting in revoltionary fantasists and middle class students and union full timers aint the way to beat the fash.  When this has been tried in certain other areas the fash have exploited the fact that the anti's support has to be bussed in and increased their credibility and share of subsequent votes.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 19, 2008)

Er, this was at a rural festival - everybody was "bussed" in. Thanks to the commotion the local community are now putting pressure on to ensure that the filthy scum won't get to host their race hate jamboree there next year – that’s a result.

A discussion about tactics is one thing, but your posts about “plastic revolutionaries” are nothing of the sort and people won’t take you seriously anyway given that your anti-fascist strategy seems to comprise solely of attacking the left and agitating online for the election of racist tories.


----------



## grogwilton (Aug 20, 2008)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Er, this was at a rural festival - everybody was "bussed" in. Thanks to the commotion the local community are now putting pressure on to ensure that the filthy scum won't get to host their race hate jamboree there next year – that’s a result.
> 
> A discussion about tactics is one thing, but your posts about “plastic revolutionaries” are nothing of the sort and people won’t take you seriously anyway given that your anti-fascist strategy seems to comprise solely of attacking the left and agitating online for the election of racist tories.



To repeat Keyboard, the demo included a large local contingent, who held banners reading 'jobs and homes not racism'. You really have some gall to paint locals agitating for better housing as 'plastic revolutionaries' when your last political act was to vote for a tory who is currently doing away with the limited legislation providing social housing in London (helping the BNP divide communities with even less social housing).

You cannot criticise any left on here anymore. Your only actions consist of voting tory and attacking the left. You are to all intents and purposes a tory, and as a result everyone here has fuck all respect for your piss poor criticisms of events you weren't at.


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## Zachor (Aug 20, 2008)

grogwilton said:


> To repeat Keyboard, the demo included a large local contingent, who held banners reading 'jobs and homes not racism'. You really have some gall to paint locals agitating for better housing as 'plastic revolutionaries' when your last political act was to vote for a tory who is currently doing away with the limited legislation providing social housing in London (helping the BNP divide communities with even less social housing).
> 
> You cannot criticise any left on here anymore. Your only actions consist of voting tory and attacking the left. You are to all intents and purposes a tory, and as a result everyone here has fuck all respect for your piss poor criticisms of events you weren't at.



Yawn.  I have the perfect right to criticise an antifash event (and you don't have to be hard left to be antifash you can be an antifash tory or lib dem) where the actions against the fash are not only ineffectual but counterproductive.


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## socialistsuzy (Aug 20, 2008)

the BNP is thriving off of the lack of decent affordable homes, lack of decent jobs etc. Tories,Lib Dems and Labour are the ones carrying out those attacks on public services and communities, not just leaving the door open for the BNP but holding it open with a red carpet. 
The only real way to defeat the BNP is to build a real working class alternative that can fight for jobs, homes, services etc. and can cut across the BNP's base.


----------



## trevhagl (Aug 20, 2008)

Zachor said:


> Its quite frightening to see just how many positive comments towards bnp.  OK some of them are obvious bnp plants but quite a few are not.
> 
> Worryingly it seems as if the idiotic actions of the so called antifash have been compared with the less antisocial way that the bnp behaved.
> 
> ...



You are talking bollocks, i had a look on there and about 80percent of the posters are BNP, sent to the website by their fuhrers, it's just SO obvious! I know racist people but they just wouldn't be arsed to bother going on a website, unless they were the real diehards


----------



## trevhagl (Aug 20, 2008)

JHE said:


> Much as I despise the Social Workers' Party and particularly its Anti-Zionism and its Islamophilia, I cannot go along with any attempt to slag off the Social Workers for noting that "thousands of LGBT people, trade unionists and disabled people were slaughtered" in the Nazis' extermination programmes.
> 
> Anyone who sees anything sinister in the supposed omission of Jews (or Gypsies) from that little list is a fool.  If we have to read anything into the supposed omission, it should just be that the Social Worker who wrote the leaflet thought the readers of the leaflet (including 'LGBT' people, TUists & disabled people) might well not know that "thousands of LGBT people, trade unionists and disabled people were slaughtered", while taking it for granted that we all know that many Jews were murdered.
> 
> ...



What WOULD you call them then? "A little bit right wing" ?


----------



## Zachor (Aug 20, 2008)

socialistsuzy said:


> the BNP is thriving off of the lack of decent affordable homes, lack of decent jobs etc. Tories,Lib Dems and Labour are the ones carrying out those attacks on public services and communities, not just leaving the door open for the BNP but holding it open with a red carpet.
> The only real way to defeat the BNP is to build a real working class alternative that can fight for jobs, homes, services etc. and can cut across the BNP's base.



Fucking Spot On.  Common sense at last.  

Deal with the resource provision and allocation problems plus deal with the real problem of people who shouldn't be here in a humane and fair way and the bnp will lose a lot of what is driving their support build up.


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## socialistsuzy (Aug 20, 2008)

which means building a new mass workers party, with representatives that only accept the average wage of the people they represent etc. and fighting the tories, lab, libdems on cuts and privatisations etc. 
Any campaign against the BNP can't be popular frontist and align with so called 'well meaning' tories, labours etc. As it is their politics that creates the vaccuum for the BNP to fill. A campaign has to be built along united working class lines involving the Trade Unions. 
protests do play an important role if organised and stewarded properly, like in welling or tower hamlets where the BNP were driven out by a mass campaign involving all layers of working class people in the borough.


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## Zachor (Aug 20, 2008)

socialistsuzy said:


> which means building a new mass workers party, with representatives that only accept the average wage of the people they represent etc. and fighting the tories, lab, libdems on cuts and privatisations etc.
> Any campaign against the BNP can't be popular frontist and align with so called 'well meaning' tories, labours etc. As it is their politics that creates the vaccuum for the BNP to fill. A campaign has to be built along united working class lines involving the Trade Unions.
> protests do play an important role if organised and stewarded properly, like in welling or tower hamlets where the BNP were driven out by a mass campaign involving all layers of working class people in the borough.




I disagree that it should only be a workers party.  Agree that privatisation should be fought but there is a considerable amount of anti fash opinion from other parties and groups that should be utilised.


----------



## socialistsuzy (Aug 20, 2008)

When those party's are a cause of the BNP's success how can you have them in any anti-BNP movement??
look at the failures of UAF, all it can do is the occasional demo and putting out leaflets in the elections saying 'don't vote nazi' (which is obviously a ridiculous tactic in areas like barking and dag. where they are supported and seen as 'respectable'). UAF are held back by the fact that they have lab./tory/libdems supporters etc because in order to keep their support UAF can't call a new mass party to fight against cuts etc because it means campaigning against the parties whose members are supporting/sponsoring them, rendering the campaign ineffectual when it comes to concretely building against the BNP.


----------



## Zachor (Aug 20, 2008)

socialistsuzy said:


> When those party's are a cause of the BNP's success how can you have them in any anti-BNP movement??



But that assumes that all parties are monolithic monothought cliques.  Which with the exeptions of some of the more loonspud groups on the right and the left is not true. 


socialistsuzy said:


> look at the failures of UAF, all it can do is the occasional demo and putting out leaflets in the elections saying 'don't vote nazi' (which is obviously a ridiculous tactic in areas like barking and dag. where they are supported and seen as 'respectable').



That was a fucking disaster.  To urge a vote for a scumbag like Hodge who had been identified in the minds of locals with the enforced (as they saw it) demographic changes in the area was stupid.  



socialistsuzy said:


> UAF are held back by the fact that they have lab./tory/libdems supporters etc because in order to keep their support UAF can't call a new mass party to fight against cuts etc because it means campaigning against the parties whose members are supporting/sponsoring them, rendering the campaign ineffectual when it comes to concretely building against the BNP.



I think that UAF are held back by being dominated by the SWP.

If you want to change things then you need lots of different people on board.

OK some people will not want to work with some groups fair do's thats there decision.  i personally wouldn't want to work with NL or SWP led groups.


----------



## Nigel (Aug 20, 2008)

socialistsuzy said:


> When those party's are a cause of the BNP's success how can you have them in any anti-BNP movement??
> look at the failures of UAF, all it can do is the occasional demo and putting out leaflets in the elections saying 'don't vote nazi' (which is obviously a ridiculous tactic in areas like barking and dag. where they are supported and seen as 'respectable'). UAF are held back by the fact that they have lab./tory/libdems supporters etc because in order to keep their support UAF can't call a new mass party to fight against cuts etc because it means campaigning against the parties whose members are supporting/sponsoring them, rendering the campaign ineffectual when it comes to concretely building against the BNP.



Whats the SP's position on UAF.
You seem to have some members involved with it, others not?
Bit opportunist pushing CNWP on this issue?


----------



## Nigel (Aug 20, 2008)

What happened to the thirty odd people arrested?
Have any been charged?
Is their a support network for them?


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## socialistsuzy (Aug 20, 2008)

you're missing the point. if the way to defeat the BNP is by building an alternative mass party that cuts across it's base and fights on behalf of ordinary people (would have to be anti-capitalist in nature because of the nature of privatisation, cuts etc.). 
If people agree that this is the way to defeat the BNP how can you be in a party that is in direct conflict with that?


----------



## socialistsuzy (Aug 20, 2008)

Nigel said:


> Whats the SP's position on UAF.
> You seem to have some members involved with it, others not?
> Bit opportunist pushing CNWP on this issue?



we helped organise the protest alongside the local UAF group, anti-BNP group and other local campaigners. 
I think UAF's politics are fundamentely flawed, if you can say they've got any politics.


----------



## Zachor (Aug 20, 2008)

socialistsuzy said:


> you're missing the point. if the way to defeat the BNP is by building an alternative mass party that cuts across it's base and fights on behalf of ordinary people (would have to be anti-capitalist in nature because of the nature of privatisation, cuts etc.).
> If people agree that this is the way to defeat the BNP how can you be in a party that is in direct conflict with that?



I agree that thre is a need to fight privatisations etc.  However, its a mistake to view the working class as an amorphous mass holding similar views and having similar needs.

I think that an anti bnp party that was anti capitalist in nature would exclude many people who believe in fairness, equal opportunities etc but who don't for various reasons subscribe to socialist dogma.


----------



## trevhagl (Aug 20, 2008)

Socialist Suzy is entirely correct regarding the way the 2 Tory parties have fucked over the working class to such an extent that they even resort to voting for fascists . Its amusing to hear of anyone saying there are anti fascists in the Tory party and New Labour - there are but the thing is these people have no voices and are sidelined, and can do nothing about the Govts Bilderberg agenda. We need a party ran by the working class FOR the working class


----------



## Zachor (Aug 20, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> and can do nothing about the Govts Bilderberg agenda.



Whooop Whooop Loonspud alert.  I class people using 'bilderberg' as some sort of justification with the same contempt as I use those quoting from the Protocols or induldging in 911 'truthism'.



trevhagl said:


> We need a party ran by the working class FOR the working class




And what about those people who don't consider THEMSELVES to be working class but are anti fash?  If you want to do away with the fash you have to have a broad appeal grouping.  Much better to be effective than living in a self congratulatory politically pure bubble.


----------



## october_lost (Aug 20, 2008)

Nigel said:


> What happened to the thirty odd people arrested?
> Have any been charged?
> Is their a support network for them?



Most are from the antifa network, so they will have asses the situation they were left with.


----------



## Nigel (Aug 20, 2008)

*United Front*

The initiative Socialist Suzy is adhering to is one by the Socialist Party(ex Militant), which although is a good initiative, hasn't really picked up, and probably wont for another few years(if ever), waiting for prominent Trade Unionists & Trade Unions to break away from the Labour Party and form a 'New Workers Party'. As was shown by their last national conference

This is her & their prerogative. However others have different outlooks, such as Anarchists, Labour Left, Communists, Anti Racist Campaigners who wish to stay non aligned, etc. This along with various other Trotskyist  groups who are involved in other Front Organisations such as Democratic Socialist Alliance, RESPECT, Left List. All with their own set programme for the  masses & working class.
http://www.s223581270.websitehome.co.uk/keyword/CNWP

We have seen the shit one group can do who act opportunistically; UAF. We should not encourage others to do the same.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 20, 2008)

Zachor said:


> Fucking Spot On.  Common sense at last.
> 
> Deal with the resource provision and allocation problems plus deal with the real problem of people who shouldn't be here in a humane and fair way and the bnp will lose a lot of what is driving their support build up.



...by voting tory?


----------



## Zachor (Aug 20, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> ...by voting tory?



If necessary yes.  Antifascists are not only found on the Left. 

I would advocate a much broader anti fash campaign.  Being part of and worse being identified with the Left Ghetto is damaging the antifash cause.

The BNP are going to clean up politicaly when the economic shit hits the fan later.  If a broad based democratically run campaign (coupled with genuine action to deal with the resource issues etc) then they may be able to be stopped.


----------



## rioted (Aug 20, 2008)

Zachor said:


> .....the real problem of people who shouldn't be here......


Who's that then?  

Thisisderby.co.uk - many of the fascist commenting on there can be seen regularly on Thisisnottingham.co.uk, another of the Daily Mail's local press empire.

I think the whole day was a success: I doubt the bnp will be using that venue again.


----------



## Herbert Read (Aug 20, 2008)

waving lollipops is not enough


----------



## socialistsuzy (Aug 20, 2008)

Nigel said:


> The initiative Socialist Suzy is adhering to is one by the Socialist Party(ex Militant), which although is a good initiative, hasn't really picked up, and probably wont for another few years(if ever), waiting for prominent Trade Unionists & Trade Unions to break away from the Labour Party and form a 'New Workers Party'. As was shown by their last national conference
> 
> This is her & their prerogative. However others have different outlooks, such as Anarchists, Labour Left, Communists, Anti Racist Campaigners who wish to stay non aligned, etc. This along with various other Trotskyist  groups who are involved in other Front Organisations such as Democratic Socialist Alliance, RESPECT, Left List. All with their own set programme for the  masses & working class.
> http://www.s223581270.websitehome.co.uk/keyword/CNWP
> ...



The CNWP is a recognition of the urgent need for a new mass workers party, but isn't claiming to be one. The CNWP is to popularise and propagandarise the idea of a new mass workers party. We recognise that any mass party will grow out of objective conditions and changing conciousness and it is our hope that the CNWP can be a part of that process or can help build a new party. You can't dictate any new party, that's why the CNWP hasn't got a detailed programme, more a loose set of demands, because the nature of any party has to be decided by it's members, when it is formed.  You can't jump ahead of class consciousness but you can try to raise it.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 20, 2008)

Zachor said:


> If necessary yes.  Antifascists are not only found on the Left.
> 
> I would advocate a much broader anti fash campaign.  Being part of and worse being identified with the Left Ghetto is damaging the antifash cause.
> 
> The BNP are going to clean up politicaly when the economic shit hits the fan later.  If a broad based democratically run campaign (coupled with genuine action to deal with the resource issues etc) then they may be able to be stopped.



Even though tory policies have contributed towards support for fascists?


----------



## Zachor (Aug 20, 2008)

rioted said:


> Who's that then?
> 
> .




People with no LEGAL right to be here.  Those here illigally, visa overstayers, economic migrants who have no work and no prospect of work, foreign criminals, etc.  Provided that its done fairly then I can't see what the problem is.  All countries have the right to remove those with no right to live in that particular nation.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 20, 2008)

Zachor said:


> People with no LEGAL right to be here.  Those here illigally, visa overstayers, economic migrants who have no work and no prospect of work, foreign criminals, etc.  Provided that its done fairly then I can't see what the problem is.  All countries have the right to remove those with no right to live in that particular nation.



Hanging's too good for them!


----------



## Zachor (Aug 20, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> Even though tory policies have contributed towards support for fascists?



New Labour policies of importing cheap labour and shitting on the working classes has caused a much bigger growth of fash groups than ever happened under the Tories.


----------



## Zachor (Aug 20, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> Hanging's too good for them!



Wouldn't go that far Blagsta.  A free plane ticket home would suffice.


----------



## october_lost (Aug 20, 2008)

Zachor said:


> New Labour policies of importing cheap labour and shitting on the working classes has caused a much bigger growth of fash groups than ever happened under the Tories.



I think you will find immigrants coming here, illegal or otherwise are driven by the logic of capitalism, a system you clearly support. There is clearly a contradiction in your thinking to blame people and their circumstances but not the economic system which drives them.


----------



## treelover (Aug 20, 2008)

> I think you will find immigrants coming here, illegal or otherwise are driven by the logic of capitalism, a system you clearly support. There is clearly a contradiction in your thinking to blame people and their circumstances but not the economic system which drives them.
> 20-08-2008 16:54



OL, 

it not about blaming individuals, to move freely is a natural instinct, but that does not mean you should not control it, the 'No Borders' position is a disaster for the left, a denial of the reality on the ground: ethnic tensions, white flight, exploitation of migrant labour by employers, a significant criminal element, while at the same time, a new US style entreprenurial migrant class is developing which is hostile to the welfare state. I also notice they( NB) have a prominent role in the Convention of the Left in Manchester, even doing the benefit gig, yet no workshops etc, on the massive welfare changes, etc, its crazy, and how comfortable will those who disagree with NB feel at this event?


Imo, the left should fight hard on basic issues, while doing what the anti-globalisation movement did woth some success, challenge the neo-liberal trade regime which is fucking up so much of the globe.


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## rogue_lettuce (Aug 20, 2008)

Zachor said:


> Wouldn't go that far Blagsta.  A free plane ticket home would suffice.



This reminds me of the time the (dutch?) government gave free plane tickets and a monetary reward to loads of gypsies, 'illegals', etc, and basically told them to go home... A few weeks later, they came back, with family. They'd used the monetary reward to buy plane tickets back for themselves and other family members.


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## treelover (Aug 20, 2008)

The gloating there says a lot about why the WILOTL is failing


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## Nigel (Aug 20, 2008)

socialistsuzy said:


> The CNWP is a recognition of the urgent need for a new mass workers party, but isn't claiming to be one. The CNWP is to popularise and propagandarise the idea of a new mass workers party. We recognise that any mass party will grow out of objective conditions and changing conciousness and it is our hope that the CNWP can be a part of that process or can help build a new party. You can't dictate any new party, that's why the CNWP hasn't got a detailed programme, more a loose set of demands, because the nature of any party has to be decided by it's members, when it is formed.  You can't jump ahead of class consciousness but you can try to raise it.



Don't you think that it is a bit opportunistic & could possibly be seen as divisive, to push CNWP, when in the process of trying to build an effective broad based anti fascist movement, especially in this context.


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## durruti02 (Aug 20, 2008)

Zachor said:


> I would advocate a much broader anti fash campaign.  Being part of and worse being identified with the Left Ghetto is damaging the antifash cause.
> 
> The BNP are going to clean up politicaly when the economic shit hits the fan later.  If a broad based democratically run campaign (coupled with genuine action to deal with the resource issues etc) then they may be able to be stopped.



whats the point of that? .. the damage being done to our society is not by the fasc but by the neo libs of NuLab and the Torys .. that is the enemy


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## rogue_lettuce (Aug 20, 2008)

treelover said:


> The gloating there says a lot about why the WILOTL is failing



What gloating?


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## Nigel (Aug 20, 2008)

Originally Posted by Zachor  View Post
People with no LEGAL right to be here. Those here illigally, visa overstayers, economic migrants who have no work and no prospect of work, foreign criminals, etc. Provided that its done fairly then I can't see what the problem is. All countries have the right to remove those with no right to live in that particular nation.



october_lost said:


> I think you will find immigrants coming here, illegal or otherwise are driven by the logic of capitalism, a system you clearly support. There is clearly a contradiction in your thinking to blame people and their circumstances but not the economic system which drives them.



So being divisive, scapegoating immigrants who have little to no influence over housing, labour policies, is going to create a balanced society, and defeat far right ideas and organisations.

When has forced immigration ever stopped the cheap labour market, did such policies as this work in Uganda, Fiji? No

Is Immigration, something that has been happening in this country for thousands of years, to a higher proportion since the peak of the industrial revolution been a drain on the British Economy: Even according to advisors  ruling class, Architects & players of of modern capitalism such as F.T., Digby Jones, CBI et al, No.

Will this stop the housing shortage, which is more due to Selling off Council Housing, Scams with housing trusts involving privatisation within social housing, mortgage rates & interest rates rising because of an unprotected, free market policies that are incapable of dealing with a world recession that is coming in the private housing market.

How is forced immigration going to help the Health Service and other areas of the public sector with a large proportion of its employees repatriated.


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## Nigel (Aug 20, 2008)

Sorry O.L. got wrong post


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## Jeff Robinson (Aug 20, 2008)

So Keyboard Zachor thinks that the presence of anarchists and socialists is harming the anti-fascist cause and also thinks the involvement of Labour is a "disaster". So who's left to join his 'broad coalition"? The Lid dummies, the tories and forces to their right presumably (UKIP, English Democrats?).  

Great idea - a sort of inverted version of Trotsky's United Front strategy. Maybe Enoch Powell's rotting corpse could be spokesman?


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## grogwilton (Aug 20, 2008)

Zachor said:


> Fucking Spot On.  Common sense at last.
> 
> Deal with the resource provision and allocation problems plus deal with the real problem of people who shouldn't be here in a humane and fair way and the bnp will lose a lot of what is driving their support build up.



But didnt you vote for Boris who's now doing away with what little social housing provision there was in existing london housing development legislation?


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## sonny61 (Aug 20, 2008)

I don't see how a few hundred turning up, and a minority attacking the police, resulting in 33 arrests, is a success.

The farmer has already said he will be holding it again next year.
Before a few months ago I had never heard of the RWB, now plenty like myself now have.

I feel sorry for some of the young ones arrested, and if they are charged I hope the courts are kind to them.
Some will now have future careers ruined by obtaining a criminal record.

And for what?
The BNP rally went ahead, and next years rally will go ahead, with even a more heavy police presence.

As a Labour party member I have been accused of not taking the BNP seriously by other members, which is true.
Perhaps I have been guilty of taking not much notice of the BNP,  when it will be us who will suffer from any rise in the BNP.

Last Weekend seems to me, a victory for the fascists.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 20, 2008)

"Plenty like myself"?

I'm not entirely sure who that might be. For the sake of argument. Perhaps you could expand?


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## october_lost (Aug 20, 2008)

If the far-right organise they have to be oppossed, they may win small victories but thats nothing compared to what would happen if they go about unoppossed. AFAICS the Labour Party is pusing the far-right vote, and as for your comment about future careers, surely your not so naive as to undermine the importance of political action, Im sure there was not one among the 33 who werent aware of the risks and we should commend their bravery not make silly remarks behind the safety of our computer, they have taken a huge risk and they have to be supported if the situation now demands it.

@ Treelover, Im not interested in the left. I'm trying to defend a consistent humane approach to politics, thats my first and only basis. If you think I live in some crusty fuelled dream where everything third worldly is made sexy yet I cant be arsed to deal with people I live and work with, then your wrong. I do practical stuff, and so do people whom I politically agree with, I just think there are good and bad ways of managing and approaching the issue of open borders, but that it can't be left alone just because it looks like a PR diaster.


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## october_lost (Aug 20, 2008)

Nigel said:


> Sorry O.L. got wrong post



Apology accepted. Don't let it happen again


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## sonny61 (Aug 20, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "Plenty like myself"?
> 
> I'm not entirely sure who that might be. For the sake of argument. Perhaps you could expand?



Sorry, not very good English.
I mean the publicity regarding the rally, now many more people know about it than did before. 
 Bad thing I think, some may disagree.


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## Zachor (Aug 21, 2008)

Jeff Robinson said:


> So Keyboard Zachor thinks that the presence of anarchists and socialists is harming the anti-fascist cause and also thinks the involvement of Labour is a "disaster". So who's left to join his 'broad coalition"? The Lid dummies, the tories and forces to their right presumably (UKIP, English Democrats?).
> 
> Great idea - a sort of inverted version of Trotsky's United Front strategy. Maybe Enoch Powell's rotting corpse could be spokesman?




JR you seem to have misheard.  Its the ACTIONS of some anarchs and socialists who damage the antifash cause.  NL's policies not least the failiure to invest in housing and services and the mass importation of cheap labour has been a major factor in boosting the bnp.  I would advise left / anarch groups (if they can cease fighting with another for more than ten mins) to study the way the bnp has built. How it has managed to get itself trusted by people and how it has built a prescence in many areas.  That is the way to build an alternative to the bnp not a self agrandising fight with the police.  

Also, it would be short sighted to believe that antifascist attitudes only exist on the Left.  That may have been the position fifty or sixty years ago but not now.  We now have a society where minorities have been accepted into many parts of society including the Tory party and to believe that this has not had a positive effect on institutions is stupid.

As regards immigration we do have  a moral duty to take in those who are fleeing oppression I would stand by that for many reasons.  We also have a moral duty to those who are born here and those who have been naturalised and contribute to our society.  We don't owe a moral duty over and above basic human rights to someone who just wants to come here and make a quick buck even though that is a natural desire.

If you want to talk about rotting corpses then the animated but stinking body of revoultionary socialist thinking is sadly still around and still burying its head in the sand.


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## Zachor (Aug 21, 2008)

treelover said:


> OL,
> 
> it not about blaming individuals, to move freely is a natural instinct, but that does not mean you should not control it,



Very true.  I would quite like to move somewhere else for a while.  It is a natural desire.  However I accept that any country I might go to will have controls on entry.  Its normal and natural for a country to want to and need to control its borders.


treelover said:


> the 'No Borders' position is a disaster for the left,



You are so right.


treelover said:


> a denial of the reality on the ground: ethnic tensions, white flight, exploitation of migrant labour by employers, a significant criminal element, while at the same time, a new US style entreprenurial migrant class is developing which is hostile to the welfare state.



Managed immigration is far better than no borders.  I know when I look at a left group poster or leaflet if it mentions no borders or similar then I know it will be a load of unrealistic bollocks.  It is a total denial of reality.  The problem is by following a no borders position blindly the only winners will be the fash.  The victims will be manifold.  




treelover said:


> I also notice they( NB) have a prominent role in the Convention of the Left in Manchester, even doing the benefit gig, yet no workshops etc, on the massive welfare changes, etc, its crazy, and how comfortable will those who disagree with NB feel at this event?



I'm afraid that this is typical behaviour.  I don't feel comfortable at NB sponsored events.


treelover said:


> Imo, the left should fight hard on basic issues, while doing what the anti-globalisation movement did woth some success, challenge the neo-liberal trade regime which is fucking up so much of the globe.



Spot on.  Personally I don't think there is any alternative to some form of capitalism as humans are a trading species and besides that the alternatives have beenb tried and failed, but the rapacious form of neoliberalist capitalism that is the problem.


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## trevhagl (Aug 21, 2008)

Zachor said:


> Whooop Whooop Loonspud alert.  I class people using 'bilderberg' as some sort of justification with the same contempt as I use those quoting from the Protocols or induldging in 911 'truthism'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK then if it isn't a Bilderberg agenda what is it? Why else would a Labour party be as right wing as the Tories? Read some books, starting with "Them" by Jon Ronson (suppose he's a loon too?) and Seamus Milne "The Enemy Within" which explains that in order to be promoted to minister you have to be vetted by M15 and if you rock the boat once you are a minister, damaging stuf in their files is leaked to the press...


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## trevhagl (Aug 21, 2008)

I honestly believe Blair (and now Brown) were paid to infiltrate and destroy the Labour party. If they really cared about the party they wouldn't be all out to alienate its traditional supporters

But if you or anyone else can find me another reason for self destruct i'm all ears


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## Zachor (Aug 21, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> OK then if it isn't a Bilderberg agenda what is it? Why else would a Labour party be as right wing as the Tories?
> 
> Labour went to the right because they wanted to be in Govt not in opposition. They saw the way British society was going and tacked accordingly.
> 
> ...


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## Zachor (Aug 21, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> I honestly believe Blair (and now Brown) were paid to infiltrate and destroy the Labour party. If they really cared about the party they wouldn't be all out to alienate its traditional supporters
> 
> But if you or anyone else can find me another reason for self destruct i'm all ears



The labour party was dead but not buried back in the early 90's.  The party was extremely vunerable to shysters like Blair who exploited the disarray and rose within the party.  

The mans an utter tosser and an unprincpled one at that but I don't believe this Bilderberg guff anymore than I believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.


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## socialistsuzy (Aug 21, 2008)

Nigel said:


> Don't you think that it is a bit opportunistic & could possibly be seen as divisive, to push CNWP, when in the process of trying to build an effective broad based anti fascist movement, especially in this context.




why should it be when we believe that the best way of combatting the BNP is to build a mass working class alternative that can cut across divisions by uniting to fight for jobs, services etc.
The best response i've had when campaigning on the CNWP has been when linking it to the campaign against the BNP. constantly on stall when you campaign against the BNP the main questions you get are, 'how do we actually get rid of them? 130,000 people voted for them how do we stop that?' 'gigs don't work, what else do we do?' and the best answer and the one that hits a note is raising that the BNP can fill a vaccuum at the present time where the working class have been abandoned by the LP and we need a new mass workers party to fight against job cuts, privatisation etc. and cut the BNP's base from beneath them.


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## Jeff Robinson (Aug 21, 2008)

Zachor said:


> If you want to talk about rotting corpses then the animated but stinking body of revoultionary socialist thinking is sadly still around and still burying its head in the sand.



A rotten metaphor to conclude a rotten post.


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## Zachor (Aug 21, 2008)

Jeff Robinson said:


> A rotten metaphor to conclude a rotten post.



Well if you feel its more important to be politically pure rather than being politically effective against the bnp then thats sure problem.  Me, I'll go for what works.


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## trevhagl (Aug 21, 2008)

Zachor;7934589][QUOTE=trevhagl said:


> OK then if it isn't a Bilderberg agenda what is it? Why else would a Labour party be as right wing as the Tories?
> 
> Labour went to the right because they wanted to be in Govt not in opposition. They saw the way British society was going and tacked accordingly.
> 
> ...


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## trevhagl (Aug 21, 2008)

Zachor said:


> Well if you feel its more important to be politically pure rather than being politically effective against the bnp then thats sure problem.  Me, I'll go for what works.



Its establishment friendly/New Labour types like yourself who fuel the rise of the BNP...


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## Zachor (Aug 21, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> Its establishment friendly/New Labour types like yourself who fuel the rise of the BNP...



Bollocks.  Did I once say that I was New Labour friendly?  No I did not.


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## trevhagl (Aug 21, 2008)

Zachor said:


> Bollocks.  Did I once say that I was New Labour friendly?  No I did not.




So where you coming from then? You sound like Kelvin Mckenzie or some other tool of the establishemnt, trying to ridicule anyone who fights for democracy


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## Zachor (Aug 21, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> Zachor;7934589 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## trevhagl (Aug 21, 2008)

You probably believe in ID cards/database state too?


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## Zachor (Aug 21, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> You probably believe in ID cards/database state too?



No I dont'.  I believe that it wrong to curtail the freedom of the individual in this way.

Yes sometimes the community or the state does need to circumscribe individual liberties but what NL have proposed is an appalling abuse of individual rights.  Yes criminals and terrorists have to be dealt with but not by treating ALL citizens as criminals and terrorists.


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## soam (Aug 21, 2008)

An exceelnt book on the destruction of labour and the hijacking of the new Labour plan is by Robin Ramsy, Prawn Cocktail Party - highly reccomended


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## Zachor (Aug 21, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> So where you coming from then? You sound like Kelvin Mckenzie or some other tool of the establishemnt, trying to ridicule anyone who fights for democracy



I was once a supporter of Left parties (for a short time I did associate with the SWP) but I would now consider myself as a Left of centre social democrat.

Neither Left nuttery nor Right nuttery makes sense to me.  Not in a society with a diversity of opinions.


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## Zachor (Aug 21, 2008)

soam said:


> An exceelnt book on the destruction of labour and the hijacking of the new Labour plan is by Robin Ramsy, Prawn Cocktail Party - highly reccomended



Sounds interesting.


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## lights.out.london (Aug 21, 2008)

rogue_lettuce said:


> This reminds me of the time the (dutch?) government gave free plane tickets and a monetary reward to loads of gypsies, 'illegals', etc, and basically told them to go home... A few weeks later, they came back, with family. They'd used the monetary reward to buy plane tickets back for themselves and other family members.


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## TopCat (Aug 21, 2008)

So as I am newly back from holidays abroad, did you lot manage to stop the RWB?


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## durruti02 (Aug 21, 2008)

TopCat said:


> So as I am newly back from holidays abroad, did you lot manage to stop the RWB?


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## trevhagl (Aug 21, 2008)

Zachor said:


> No I dont'.  I believe that it wrong to curtail the freedom of the individual in this way.
> 
> Yes sometimes the community or the state does need to circumscribe individual liberties but what NL have proposed is an appalling abuse of individual rights.  Yes criminals and terrorists have to be dealt with but not by treating ALL citizens as criminals and terrorists.



Oh no he's agreeing with ME now! All i need now is for El Jefe to agree with something is say and then i have world domination!


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## trevhagl (Aug 21, 2008)

TopCat said:


> So as I am newly back from holidays abroad, did you lot manage to stop the RWB?




We don't stop ANYTHING we just argue on forums!


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## Zachor (Aug 21, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> Oh no he's agreeing with ME now! All i need now is for El Jefe to agree with something is say and then i have world domination!





im not a TOTAL contrarian you know.  I do agree with others on occasion.


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## rioted (Aug 21, 2008)

Zachor said:


> All countries have the right to remove those with no right to live in that particular nation.


I know! I should "go back to Russia"!!


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## rioted (Aug 21, 2008)

Zachor said:


> Its normal and natural for a country to want to and need to control its borders.




It's completely *abnormal* for a "country" to have *any* "wants".


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## october_lost (Aug 21, 2008)

Zachor said:


> No I dont'.  I believe that it wrong to curtail the freedom of the individual in this way.



But immigration controls are fine, I noted in your outline of 'how ridiculous open borders is' that you didn't mention the free movement of commerce and trade, I take it making links around the movement of free labour and capital is equally absurd in your opinion?


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## lights.out.london (Aug 22, 2008)

TopCat said:


> So as I am newly back from holidays abroad, did you lot manage to stop the RWB?



Real life? Are you _insane_?


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## october_lost (Aug 22, 2008)

Lets be realistic, it was disrupted enough to make it questionable it will go ahead again in that neck of the woods.


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## lights.out.london (Aug 22, 2008)

You'd hope so. But they'll be back....somewhere. 

They really are the party of bottom-feeding scum. Incredible. A whole weekend of the Ugly Parade.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 22, 2008)

Anyway, to conclude the thread, was this festival actually stopped?


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 22, 2008)

Yes. Also we managed to stop the Nazi BNP by titting about on the internet. Everything's fine now.


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## rogue_lettuce (Aug 23, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Everything's fine now.



Except global warming, which has been quadrupled by the doubts expressed on this very messageboard. You see, it works on the "I don't believe in fairies" basis...


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## trevhagl (Aug 23, 2008)

october_lost said:


> Lets be realistic, it was disrupted enough to make it questionable it will go ahead again in that neck of the woods.



Would like to say what the smug twats on here answer to that is.


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## trevhagl (Aug 23, 2008)

fuck me have i become illiterate? I meant i'd like to SEE what the smug twats answer to that is... cos they're never happy unless they're criticising and if people actually ACHEIVE something i imagine they'll be lost for words..


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## lights.out.london (Aug 24, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yes. Also we managed to stop the Nazi BNP by titting about on the internet. Everything's fine now.



Some useful work _was_ done. IRL. With real people.


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