# WOW Amazon Kindle.



## ChrisC (Aug 14, 2011)

Just seen one of these. What a clear screen, just like paper. Me wants one. ;-) Yes me wants one now. Any ideas where I can pick up a deal?


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## craigxcraig (Aug 14, 2011)

no idea where you can get a deal - but gotta agree with you re WOW! My wife and I bought a couple prior to our travels and they're an essential bit of kit for travelling, I've not stopped reading!


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## purves grundy (Aug 14, 2011)

My mate's bought an ipad at the same time as I bought a Kindle; he hasn't stopped guffawing at me for purchasing what he sees as a primitive, laughable piece of technology. But then, he's a thick bastard who doesn't read.


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## maldwyn (Aug 14, 2011)

Amazon now do refurbs for around £80


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## grit (Aug 14, 2011)

purves grundy said:


> My mate's bought an ipad at the same time as I bought a Kindle; he hasn't stopped guffawing at me for purchasing what he sees as a primitive, laughable piece of technology. But then, he's a thick bastard who doesn't read.



Yeah I see a lot of people push the ipad when the kindle comes up, no comparison. I always think people on the tube reading an ipad look ridiculous, its too big and heavy. Kindle is perfect for what its designed for


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## 5t3IIa (Aug 14, 2011)

I see someone reading a Kindle on the tube every day. I've seen about 3 iPads.


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## ChrisC (Aug 14, 2011)

There's a kindle app on my Android phone. I could not imagine reading a book on my HTC Desire. I will get a kindle at some point.


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## marty21 (Aug 14, 2011)

I let me Kindle to some mates who have just gone to Italy for 2 weeks - they got me to order about 7 books, which they paid for, and I get to keep 

but I can still read my kindle on my phone and my Ipod Touch


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## Bungle73 (Aug 14, 2011)

It's horses for courses.  If all you want to do is read books then get a Kindle because the screen is much better for reading from for long periods.  If your main interest is surfing the net and playing with apps then you need an iPad, which is what I have

I have read books in my iPhone too btw.  I read the whole of Frankenstein, A Christmas Carol and Great Expectations on it, and I'm in the middle of The Odyssey.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 14, 2011)

My daughter got a Kindle about a year ago but returned it after about a fortnight as she found loads of books she wanted to load on it just weren't available on a Kindle


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## strung out (Aug 14, 2011)

what would be really brilliant is if you got the kindle version free every time you bought a hard copy of a book. i much prefer having proper books, but for holidays etc then having the kindle version would be brilliant.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 14, 2011)

I've picked up a kindle 3 or 4 times (in Tesco), then put it back 

Think I might get one for Artichoke, at some point in the not-too-distant future.


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## Bob_the_lost (Aug 14, 2011)

I've got a tablet and the kindle. They are very different beasts and i'm not sure which one gets more use. The tablet is crap for reading, too heavy, but the kindle obviously can't do movies and it's web browser is nearly useless.

In terms of value for money i'd say the kindle is better by a mile. Not as flashy but far more mature.

At some point they'll probably merge but that's a long way off yet.


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## maldwyn (Aug 14, 2011)

As a person with reduced vision my kindle is a god send. I like its simplicity it's for nothing eles but reading. In addition to books I load mine with articles from the web transferred via Instapaper.


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## Teepee (Aug 15, 2011)

is it possible to transfer your own Ebooks onto a kindle, say PDF format?


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## newme (Aug 15, 2011)

Someone explain why a kindle which to me seems like basically a screen that displays text, is better than an iPad, which has a screen that displays text, films etc and presumably has better specs. (ive never used either).


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## scifisam (Aug 15, 2011)

newme said:


> Someone explain why a kindle which to me seems like basically a screen that displays text, is better than an iPad, which has a screen that displays text, films etc and presumably has better specs. (ive never used either).



It's much, much easier to read text on for prolonged periods, it's very light indeed, switches on in a second and can be read in bright, direct sunlight. It also costs about 5 times less.


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## gosub (Aug 15, 2011)

and you use it for days without charging


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## Bob_the_lost (Aug 15, 2011)

Teepee said:


> is it possible to transfer your own Ebooks onto a kindle, say PDF format?


Yes, very easy. The kindle can read pdfs without conversion but i use calibre to convert them to mobi format which reads a bit better on the kindle.

The ipad is three times the weight of the Kindle. If you've ever tried holding up a hardback book to read you're not far off the tablet experience. Then there's battery life, as gosub says it's better, a tablet gives you around 8-10 hours use and it doesn't care if it's a movie or a book you're reading. I got through 8 books on the kindle between charges last time.

There's also the size, the kindle is smaller and closer to pocketsized. If you go for one of the 5" Sony models it is literally pocket sized. My other half has one and it fits in her handbag very happily so it can and does go most places she does.


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## London_Calling (Aug 15, 2011)

I expect I know the answer but does it deal with sunlight any better than a smartphone screen?


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## strung out (Aug 15, 2011)

you probably know the answer because it was answered three posts above yours


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## London_Calling (Aug 15, 2011)

People post after I've gone to bed!! 

*back to my coffee*


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Aug 15, 2011)

newme said:


> Someone explain why a kindle which to me seems like basically a screen that displays text, is better than an iPad, which has a screen that displays text, films etc and presumably has better specs. (ive never used either).


That's like saying "Someone explain why a book, which to me seems like basically some paper with words on it, is better than an TV, which has a screen that displays pictures, text, films etc and presumably has better specs."


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## grit (Aug 15, 2011)

gosub said:


> and you use it for days without charging



Days? more like weeks!


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## Radar (Aug 15, 2011)

strung out said:


> what would be really brilliant is if you got the kindle version free every time you bought a hard copy of a book. i much prefer having proper books, but for holidays etc then having the kindle version would be brilliant.


My take on this, is that if I've bought a hard copy then the e-version is fair game for me to get any way I can.

Torrents FTW


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## newme (Aug 15, 2011)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> That's like saying "Someone explain why a book, which to me seems like basically some paper with words on it, is better than an TV, which has a screen that displays pictures, text, films etc and presumably has better specs."



Being as Ive never used a Kindle, as I stated quite clearly in my post, explain how I would know exactly how it works and what it is. Especially given as my question pretty much asked these details.


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## newme (Aug 15, 2011)

scifisam said:


> It's much, much easier to read text on for prolonged periods, it's very light indeed, switches on in a second and can be read in bright, direct sunlight. It also costs about 5 times less.



Very helpful cheers 
Only seen an iPad briefly but that seemed basically like a small laptop screen, which Ive never really had any problems reading text on for long periods of time. How is it easier exactly on a Kindle? 

Looking at getting one based on all this possibly to replace large pile of books thats cluttering up the place.


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## ChrisFilter (Aug 15, 2011)

newme said:


> Very helpful cheers
> Only seen an iPad briefly but that seemed basically like a small laptop screen, which Ive never really had any problems reading text on for long periods of time. How is it easier exactly on a Kindle?
> 
> Looking at getting one based on all this possibly to replace large pile of books thats cluttering up the place.



Looking at the Kindle screen is like looking at paper. It's not backlit.


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## newme (Aug 15, 2011)

ChrisFilter said:


> Looking at the Kindle screen is like looking at paper. It's not backlit.



Aaah ic cheers.


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## rhod (Aug 15, 2011)

newme said:


> Someone explain why a kindle which to me seems like basically a screen that displays text, is better than an iPad, which has a screen that displays text, films etc and presumably has better specs. (ive never used either).



The iPad is designed to display fast-moving colour images (amongst many other things), wheras the Kindle uses a different display technology (ePaper) which provides a much better display contrast, and only uses power when the screen is refreshed occasionally (i.e. when "turning a page" every few minutes). For a portable item this means it's lighter and needs less charging.

I've been toying with getting a Kindle for my partner who has mobility problems with her hands and finds that books are becoming increasingly difficult to hold for long periods.

I've decided to get a different e-reader, however. The CyBook Opus is a bit smaller than the Kindle, but is half the weight.







Doesn't have wireless or a few bells & whistles, but it's not a major problem to transfer books via usb whilst the unit is charging up. You can replace batteries and SD cards, too - which I don't think is possible with the Kindle.

And it's only 70 quid from eBay!


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## pianissimo (Aug 15, 2011)

I like how I can have articles send to the Kindle, and how I can convert pdf to mobi for the Kindle.  And it's much much much easier for my eyes when reading than on any LCD/LED/AMOLED displays.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Aug 15, 2011)

newme said:


> Being as Ive never used a Kindle, as I stated quite clearly in my post, explain how I would know exactly how it works and what it is. Especially given as my question pretty much asked these details.


I have also never touched either but it's not hard to read the previous posts to yours in this very thread.


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## pianissimo (Aug 15, 2011)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I have also never touched either but it's not hard to read the previous posts to yours in this very thread.



I was surprised how light and good quality it felt of the Kindle when I first touched it.  Highly recommend for reading over any iPads.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Aug 15, 2011)

pianissimo said:


> I was surprised how light and good quality it felt of the Kindle when I first touched it. Highly recommend for reading over any iPads.


Well I ain't getting no iPad that is for sure.
Can't imagine getting a kindle either, I have a backlog of books to get through, plus the library is free.
I never end up reading much on holiday anyway so one book is fine.


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## scifisam (Aug 15, 2011)

newme said:


> Very helpful cheers
> Only seen an iPad briefly but that seemed basically like a small laptop screen, which Ive never really had any problems reading text on for long periods of time. How is it easier exactly on a Kindle?
> 
> Looking at getting one based on all this possibly to replace large pile of books thats cluttering up the place.



I've never had any problems reading on a computer screen either, but I still find the Kindle much pleasanter - I think my eyes were just used to the strain. It looks so much like paper that it's little bit spooky.


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## Throbbing Angel (Aug 15, 2011)

...and £111 on Waterstones main website
 looks like a good deal


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## mrs quoad (Aug 16, 2011)

Throbbing Angel said:


> ...and £111 on Waterstones main website
> looks like a good deal


£111 in Tesco, too.


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## grit (Aug 16, 2011)

its 111 quid everywhere thats the RRP.


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## Bungle73 (Aug 16, 2011)

It's £111 everywhere, including on Amazon.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 16, 2011)

Realized today that I've now read enough books on the thing for it to actually count as a saving over having the paper copies.


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## newme (Aug 16, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> Realized today that I've now read enough books on the thing for it to actually count as a saving over having the paper copies.



Does seem like kindle copies are a damn sight cheaper than physical copies. Plus they are backed up forever by Amazon so you can never lose them, damage them, or in the case of 4 of mine I lent out recently find someone has partially destroyed the spines and fucking wrote on them


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 16, 2011)

I haven't actually bought any books from Amazon. 

However having backups is a good thing, I'm crap at hanging onto paperbacks.


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## newme (Aug 16, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> I haven't actually bought any books from Amazon.
> 
> However having backups is a good thing, I'm crap at hanging onto paperbacks.



Well I was certainly not going to be paying to replace all the physical copies of stuff Ill be shifting. Assuming I can actually find them for free anyway lol. But when its a pain to find and is gonna be like £2.50 or whatever I saw one Ive not got, its not a huge deal. Seems a lot of stuff isn't that available, well not on thepiratebay anyway lol, clearly have to find beter places to look once Ive got one.

I seem to hang onto books rather well, but then be annoyed they are sitting about taking up room and Im not getting round to reading them more than once anyway.


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## belboid (Aug 16, 2011)

I just bought one for mrs b's birthday.  I'm still trying to work out if it is possible to lend books on the darned thing.  Google implies you can, but i think that might only be for yanks, as I haven't seen a single item that has the 'Lending Enabled' symbol.

Am I wrong?  Or is this a really irritating (lack of) feature on this otherwise really rather nice machine?


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## newme (Aug 16, 2011)

belboid said:


> I just bought one for mrs b's birthday.  I'm still trying to work out if it is possible to lend books on the darned thing.  Google implies you can, but i think that might only be for yanks, as I haven't seen a single item that has the 'Lending Enabled' symbol.
> 
> Am I wrong?  Or is this a really irritating (lack of) feature on this otherwise really rather nice machine?



If people are getting them off torrents and such like they pirating em must be fairly simple, can you not simply copy the files to a usb drive and give them that, or email it.


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## belboid (Aug 16, 2011)

hmm, sounds reasonable.  But if thats how to do it the publishers are fucking idiots. One of the beauties of books is lending them to someone else, its idiotic of the sellers actually force you into illegal downloading


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## newme (Aug 16, 2011)

belboid said:


> hmm, sounds reasonable.  But if thats how to do it the publishers are fucking idiots. One of the beauties of books is lending them to someone else, its idiotic of the sellers actually force you into illegal downloading



Well if you already have bought it legally then I imagine you can simply copy the files, saving you illegally downloading it. Fact is DRM in general was a giant fail so implementing a system whereby you could beam your files to someone else, presumably not access them while the other person has them as well it was a lend not a copy, then protect that from being lent on from that person until its returned to the original owner. All the while preventing it being copied when circumvention is fairly simple in general (see mp3 DRM problems over the years) is a huge technical hassle and generally ended up mostly screwing over people that actually paid while those that didn't got around it anyway.

Plus it would limit it to only people with kindles, other readers would be unable to read it probably opening them up to issues that way, meaning then they have to open the protocol, publish it, bla bla bla. More problems than its worth for them.


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## Throbbing Angel (Aug 16, 2011)

grit said:


> its 111 quid everywhere thats the RRP.



I was talking about  The CyBook Opus that Rhod is getting off ebay for his missus - I think I typed a reply, got distracted, then hit POST after other people had posted.
Rhod's paying £70 for his from Waterstone's ebay store, on their main website, they are £111


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## belboid (Aug 16, 2011)

newme said:


> Well if you already have bought it legally then I imagine you can simply copy the files, saving you illegally downloading it. Fact is DRM in general was a giant fail so implementing a system whereby you could beam your files to someone else, presumably not access them while the other person has them as well it was a lend not a copy, then protect that from being lent on from that person until its returned to the original owner. All the while preventing it being copied when circumvention is fairly simple in general (see mp3 DRM problems over the years) is a huge technical hassle and generally ended up mostly screwing over people that actually paid while those that didn't got around it anyway.
> 
> Plus it would limit it to only people with kindles, other readers would be unable to read it probably opening them up to issues that way, meaning then they have to open the protocol, publish it, bla bla bla. More problems than its worth for them.


all no doubt true - but it is also why kindles will only remain a small proportion of the overall market unless they sort it out. You'd have thought after betamax and video2000, or hd-dvd and blu-ray, they'd realise that so overly proprietary formats cant last.  Especially for a market that has always been so based upon lending (and, to a lesser extent, second hand, a dead market in the E world)


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## grit (Aug 16, 2011)

belboid said:


> but it is also why kindles will only remain a small proportion of the overall market unless they sort it out.



Kindle is the biggest selling e-reader........


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## 100% masahiko (Aug 16, 2011)

grit said:


> Kindle is the biggest selling e-reader........



Yep pretty much.
I'm happy with Kindle. However, if I had the choice, I'd bought this.






http://www.barnesandnoble.com/nook/index.asp

Does anyone know how it was never released in the UK?


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## belboid (Aug 16, 2011)

grit said:


> Kindle is the biggest selling e-reader........


but a tiny proportion of the book market


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## Bob_the_lost (Aug 16, 2011)

belboid said:


> but a tiny proportion of the book market


Bigger (volume) than hardbacks last I heard. Smaller grossing but the sales model is a lot more suited to the long tail approach that Amazon loves.

They are the future.


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## belboid (Aug 16, 2011)

3% of the whole market, I think I saw. Much easier for stocking slower selling back catalogue, indeed, but unless they sort out some way of overcoming the sharing thing, other companies will probly steal the march


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## Bob_the_lost (Aug 16, 2011)

I don't really like Amazon's format or DRM. The market has a lot of change left in it and i doubt DRM is here to stay any more than it was for music which is a whole different league of difficult to copy than any drm'd book.


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## scifisam (Aug 16, 2011)

belboid said:


> 3% of the whole market, I think I saw. Much easier for stocking slower selling back catalogue, indeed, but unless they sort out some way of overcoming the sharing thing, other companies will probly steal the march



Really? I don't think not being able to share a book will have as much impact as you think.


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## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

belboid said:


> 3% of the whole market, I think I saw. Much easier for stocking slower selling back catalogue, indeed, but unless they sort out some way of overcoming the sharing thing, other companies will probly steal the march



Perhaps worldwide (although this would suggest more like 11% http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/may/03/ebook-sales-amazon-kindle), which is hardly surprising (£111 may not seem an enormous amount to most of us, but for most of the world it is), but in the US I believe it's more like 25%, and ebook sales outstrip book sales on Amazon.


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## grit (Aug 17, 2011)

belboid said:


> but a tiny proportion of the book market


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## kalidarkone (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm getting one soon so I can have all my textbooks in a light format-some of them are huge and meaty!! No more lugging em about!!


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## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

I think that hints at where the Kindle might find new ground over its next few releases; text books are expensive to print, heavy and quickly obsolete - a subscription electronic model would certainly be a better way to publish them... Really the only impediment is a lack of colour and a decent chapter/navigation/notes system. The large form factor of text books isn't really relevant as most images won't fill a page anyway. I reckon we'll see a durable, cheap version of the Kindle aimed at schools, and perhaps a touch/stylus/usb keyboard one aimed at students (although that has the bigger issue of screen refresh rates to deal with, dual monitors works of course, but increases cost, size and battery drain). Depends on profit margins etc of course, but it would be a stupendously good idea in terms of getting customers early.


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## grit (Aug 17, 2011)

100% masahiko said:


> Yep pretty much.
> I'm happy with Kindle. However, if I had the choice, I'd bought this.
> 
> 
> ...



Considering B&N are close to going out of business and are looking for a buyer, I'd imagine the breaks have been put on a lot of things they do.


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## 100% masahiko (Aug 17, 2011)

Retail sector is seriously sucking...


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## lobster (Aug 17, 2011)

100% masahiko said:


> Yep pretty much.
> I'm happy with Kindle. However, if I had the choice, I'd bought this.
> 
> 
> ...



 I just had a look at the specs



> Read for up to 8 hours***** without recharging with wireless off



I have read the kindle well over a month with an average of at list 30 minutes a day on a single charge.
The Nook Colour  has a backlight which is not that comfortable for reading over long periods of time and I doubt your be able to read in the sun.

Duokan is a alternative operating system for kindle that can read render Epub , pdf , mobi and others without the need to remove the original one. I have yet to try myself, i am hoping kindle add epub support soon


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## grit (Aug 17, 2011)

lobster said:


> I just had a look at the specs
> 
> I have read the kindle well over a month with an average of at list 30 minutes a day on a single charge.
> The Nook Colour has a backlight which is not that comfortable for reading over long periods of time and I doubt your be able to read in the sun.
> ...



I'm using pdf,mobi and epub on a stock kindle without issues?


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## Bungle73 (Aug 17, 2011)

The Nook Colour just has a standard LCD screen; you might as well just get an iPad.

As for why it's not sold over here: well for a start B&N don't trade in the UK, and do they sell anywhere other than the US anyway?


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## lobster (Aug 17, 2011)

grit said:


> I'm using pdf,mobi and epub on a stock kindle without issues?



 are you sure your not converting the epub files first?


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## belboid (Aug 17, 2011)

grit said:


>


don't worry, everyone makes mistakes, yours was understandable


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## grit (Aug 17, 2011)

belboid said:


> don't worry, everyone makes mistakes, yours was understandable



I'm amazed you fail to see that the two are not related.


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## belboid (Aug 17, 2011)

Cid said:


> (although this would suggest more like 11% http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/may/03/ebook-sales-amazon-kindle),


£180 mill out of £3.1bill?  Thats more like 6%


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## belboid (Aug 17, 2011)

grit said:


> I'm amazed you fail to see that the two are not related.


sorry, sales of books are unrelated to sales of ebooks?


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## grit (Aug 17, 2011)

belboid said:


> sorry, sales of books are unrelated to sales of ebooks?



That amazon drm is not related to market penetration of ereaders/kindle.

In addition a physical book and a ebook are different products, so they are not directly related.


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## belboid (Aug 17, 2011)

lol, what fucking drivel. Of course they're related


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## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

belboid said:


> £180 mill out of £3.1bill? Thats more like 6%






> Overall the share of digital sales accounted for by the consumer market for ebooks and downloads rose from 2% to 11% in 2010.



Note that those figures are total sales, not profits (ebooks being cheaper) and that they don't include free resources like project Gutenberg. Also remember that the Kindle 2 was only released in August of that year, with Christmas being where sales really took off... Quite a lot of those sales probably come from the last week of the year.


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## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

Indeed ebook sales have overtaken paperback sales overall in the US:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/apr/15/ebook-sales-milestone


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## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

grit said:


> That amazon drm is not related to market penetration of ereaders/kindle.
> 
> In addition a physical book and a ebook are different products, so they are not directly related.



Um... Bit like saying MP3s aren't directly related to CD sales.


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## belboid (Aug 17, 2011)

Cid said:


> Note that those figures are total sales, not profits (ebooks being cheaper) and that they don't include free resources like project Gutenberg. Also remember that the Kindle 2 was only released in August of that year, with Christmas being where sales really took off... Quite a lot of those sales probably come from the last week of the year.


aah, good point, fair do's


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## marty21 (Aug 17, 2011)

grit said:


> That amazon drm is not related to market penetration of ereaders/kindle.
> 
> In addition a physical book and a ebook are different products, so they are not directly related.


  people who buy a physical book are unlikely to shell out for a digital one - and people buying the kindle ones, won't buy the physical ones - pretty closely closely related..

I miss my Kindle, it is on holiday in Italy atm


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## grit (Aug 17, 2011)

marty21 said:


> people who buy a physical book are unlikely to shell out for a digital one - and people buying the kindle ones, won't buy the physical ones - pretty closely closely related..
> 
> I miss my Kindle, it is on holiday in Italy atm



They are in the same domain, but by your own admission they are not direct like for like comparisons which is what some people are trying to represent here.


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## marty21 (Aug 17, 2011)

grit said:


> They are in the same domain, but by your own admission they are not direct like for like comparisons which is what some people are trying to represent here.


but sales of one has an impact on the other - if I didn't have a Kindle - I'd have bought a lot physical books - and book sales would have increased by that amount - by having a kindle I am buying less physical books


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## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

grit said:


> They are in the same domain, but by your own admission they are not direct like for like comparisons which is what some people are trying to represent here.



The fundamental unit of a book's value is information... 1,300 years ago the information in Al-Khwarizmi's copy of the Almagest would be the same(ish) as a copy bought today, but the financial value would have been immensely greater. The Arab world went on to develop books and more rapid methods of transcribing them, the financial value decreases... later still Gutenberg develops his press, and the financial value drops still further, and so on. Today the information value of a book is the same, i.e a book bought on a kindle has the same intrinsic value as a book hand written on parchment - you are buying the same book. The only difference is the medium its being read on, just as Gutenberg's press must have had scribes running in fear, the Kindle is probably giving Mr Penguin nightmares.

e2a: There are other factors like the artistic value of an illuminated manuscript, but these are not really relevant here.


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## grit (Aug 17, 2011)

Cid said:


> The fundamental unit of a book's value is information... 1,300 years ago the information in Al-Khwarizmi's copy of the Almagest would be the same(ish) as a copy bought today, but the financial value would have been immensely greater. The Arab world went on to develop books and more rapid methods of transcribing them, the financial value decreases... later still Gutenberg develops his press, and the financial value drops still further, and so on. Today the information value of a book is the same, i.e a book bought on a kindle has the same intrinsic value as a book hand written on parchment - you are buying the same book. The only difference is the medium its being read on. There are other factors like the artistic value of an illuminated manuscripts, but these are not really relevant here.



The information value is the same, but I dont agree that the consumer's decision making process is as simplistic as you suggest.


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## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

grit said:


> The information value is the same, but I dont agree that the consumer's decision making process is as simplistic as you suggest.



I haven't suggested the consumer's decision making is simple, just that the intrinsic value of an ebook is the same as that of a paperback. How that affects the market remains to be seen - i suspect that readers will become more and more common as they become more accessible (as the Kindle has shown in the US), but that books will be around for a while yet. They might become more of a niche thing, just-in-time type stuff where books are printed on order etc.


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## grit (Aug 17, 2011)

Cid said:


> I haven't suggested the consumer's decision making is simple, just that the intrinsic value of an ebook is the same as that of a paperback. How that affects the market remains to be seen - i suspect that readers will become more and more common as they become more accessible (as the Kindle has shown in the US), but that books will be around for a while yet. They might become more of a niche thing, just-in-time type stuff where books are printed on order etc.



I think there are people, for whatever reasons, that dont treat them with the same value. FWIW the dead tree book in my view isint going anywhere, for a long long time.


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## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

Buying something for a value beyond its intrinsic one requires that your product offers something extra. I would argue that, in the case of the modern paperback, that is minimal and something people will (and have) get over pretty quickly. Which is not to say the printed book will die, but it will change - as I said one-off/small run manufacturing by smaller printers might be one way it goes (one-off not necessarily meaning high cost, print on demand tech is already around).


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## grit (Aug 17, 2011)

Cid said:


> Buying something for a value beyond its intrinsic one requires that your product offers something extra. I would argue that, in the case of the modern paperback, that is minimal and something people will (and have) get over pretty quickly. Which is not to say the printed book will die, but it will change - as I said one-off/small run manufacturing by smaller printers might be one way it goes (one-off not necessarily meaning high cost, print on demand tech is already around).



I think you are discounting people's desire for the tactile experience of a regular book tbh. Not that there is any logic to such a view, but thats humans i guess


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2011)

You're making a right mess of contradictory statements here grit.

The printed paper book is never going to die, but that hardly means they are completely different to e-books. The only question is how large a share of the market e-books can get, and what share of that market the kindle will get.

What point are you trying to make, or are you just trying to have an argument for arguments sake?


----------



## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm not, it's just not significant enough to buck the trend. When the modern paperback came out I expect people talked about flimsy (pulp etc) they felt compared to a good hardback, but that didn't stop them dominating the market with a small form factor, low cost and light weight... ebook readers have several major problems they need to get over; initial cost, availability of materials etc, but they are just much better and people who read a lot and actually buy new books will switch to them. Again, the paper book market is not going away, but it will have to change in pretty fundamental ways.


----------



## grit (Aug 17, 2011)

Cid said:


> I'm not, it's just not significant enough to buck the trend. When the modern paperback came out I expect people talked about flimsy (pulp etc) they felt compared to a good hardback, but that didn't stop them dominating the market with a small form factor, low cost and light weight... ebook readers have several major problems they need to get over; initial cost, availability of materials etc, but they are just much better and people who read a lot and actually buy new books will switch to them. Again, the paper book market is not going away, but it will have to change in pretty fundamental ways.



Certainly in time I can see that being the case, I just think there is a lot of people who value the idea of having physical paper in their hands, however irrational that may be. Any of the changes that you are talking about I think are going to take a really long time to transpire.


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2011)

Cid said:


> but they are just much better


Wow, that's one heck of a claim.  They have many advantages, for sure, but to say that they are just 'much better' is bloody nonsense. I like reading in the bath, frinstance...


----------



## The Octagon (Aug 17, 2011)

belboid said:


> Wow, that's one heck of a claim. They have many advantages, for sure, but to say that they are just 'much better' is bloody nonsense. I like reading in the bath, frinstance...



An odd comparison, paper books don't exactly thrive if dropped in water.


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2011)

they dont explode either tho


----------



## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)




----------



## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

grit said:


> Certainly in time I can see that being the case, I just think there is a lot of people who value the idea of having physical paper in their hands, however irrational that may be. Any of the changes that you are talking about I think are going to take a really long time to transpire.



They already have transpired, ebooks are outselling paper books in the US.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 17, 2011)

Cid said:


>


ooh - that's a fancy one. Mine looks like a glorified freezer bag.  Works tho - i can read my kindle in the bath, shower, while swimming, fixing oil rigs, diving for pearls...


----------



## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

belboid said:


> Wow, that's one heck of a claim. They have many advantages, for sure, but to say that they are just 'much better' is bloody nonsense. I like reading in the bath, frinstance...



How many books can you store in your book? how many magazines? Can you read a newspaper on your book? Can your book play music? Is it comfortable to hold your book and change pages with one hand? Does your book have a built in dictionary? Can you read PDFs on your book etc etc... there are a few things the kindle is bad at; cracked screens, cost of loss etc but it is a phenomenally good product. I love books, always have, and probably wouldn't give a child a Kindle, but they are generally a far better product for people who read a lot.


----------



## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> ooh - that's a fancy one. Mine looks like a glorified freezer bag. Works tho - i can read my kindle in the bath, shower, while swimming, fixing oil rigs, diving for pearls...



Yeah I noticed that one, might get one if you reckon it's good, cheap and doesn't add a fucking massive box to the thing.


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2011)

Cid said:


> How many books can you store in your book? how many magazines? Can you read a newspaper on your book? Can your book play music? Is it comfortable to hold your book and change pages with one hand? Does your book have a built in dictionary? Can you read PDFs on your book etc etc... there are a few things the kindle is bad at; cracked screens, cost of loss etc but it is a phenomenally good product. I love books, always have, and probably wouldn't give a child a Kindle, but they are generally a far better product for people who read a lot.


I dont want my book to do most of those things. I want it to be 'a book.' That simple. I want to be able to flick back n forth more easily than I can (at present) on a kindle, I want to be able to lend it to someone, and to be able to be lent books. I want to be able to read it in the bath without being afraid of dipping a corner into the water. I dnt want to have all my books dissapear because my bags been nicked.

They are a great prodcut, but that doesnt mean they are definitively 'better' than a book.  Not yet anyway.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 17, 2011)

to weigh in on this. i like my kindle. i read more over all now i can just have it in my bag on the offchance, and my reading of classic literature has shot up, because it's free.  (I know lots of stuff *can* be free, but I'm not entirely skint and i am lazy, and in the end I just don't mind paying).

However, it will never replace some of the books i buy because they are things of gorgeousness printed beautifully with fantastic vibrant photography. I want to have those books on my shelves and take them down and look at them.  It will never replace another large section of my book buying, which is play scripts - because scripts get abused and scrawled on in a way that neat annotations and highlighting doesn't really come close to. But novels? Yeah. Why not? It is a pain i won't be able to lend them out any more, but for every one i lend out there's twenty that need eventual schlepping to the charity shop.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 17, 2011)

Cid said:


> Yeah I noticed that one, might get one if you reckon it's good, cheap and doesn't add a fucking massive box to the thing.


it's a bit like using your kindle in an outsize ziplock bag made of the type of stuff they make cheap lilos out of. but it doesn't leak.  it's a fair bit bigger than the kindle, though.


----------



## grit (Aug 17, 2011)

Cid said:


> They already have transpired, ebooks are outselling paper books in the US.



Ebooks are already outselling all physical books? 

Really?? got a link?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 17, 2011)

kalidarkone said:


> I'm getting one soon so I can have all my textbooks in a light format-some of them are huge and meaty!! No more lugging em about!!



Funnily enough that's the one thing I don't rate it for. A textbook is much easier to flick between pages.


----------



## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

grit said:


> Ebooks are already outselling all physical books?
> 
> Really?? got a link?



Slight bit of hyperbole on my part, outselling paperbacks over the first quarter, but they are doing very well, linked earlier in the thread:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/apr/15/ebook-sales-milestone

Remember that sales figures don't include free books/piracy as well.


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2011)

I'll be intrigued by how well they do over a year, rater than in a single month. February is always a slow sales time, certainly compared with the summer hols & xmas, its a nothing of a month.  And buying someone an e-book is a shit present.


----------



## grit (Aug 17, 2011)

Cid said:


> Slight bit of hyperbole on my part, outselling paperbacks over the first quarter, but they are doing very well, linked earlier in the thread:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/apr/15/ebook-sales-milestone
> 
> Remember that sales figures don't include free books/piracy as well.



Still in fairness thats a lot swifter than I imagined


----------



## Cid (Aug 17, 2011)

belboid said:


> I'll be intrigued by how well they do over a year, rater than in a single month. February is always a slow sales time, certainly compared with the summer hols & xmas, its a nothing of a month. And buying someone an e-book is a shit present.



Yeah, i expect it will be more like 10-15%, still a massive achievement in a year (I realise the first Kindle came out in 2007, but Kindle 3 was the one that actually managed to reach a mass market).


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Aug 17, 2011)

The Octagon said:


> An odd comparison, paper books don't exactly thrive if dropped in water.


I'm another one of those people who like to read whilst in the bath. Thanks to my waterproof cover I can now even read whilst showering. Take that celuluddites!


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 17, 2011)

I used an old yellowed map case on holiday last month, but am tempted. Which one did you get bob?


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Aug 17, 2011)

I had one of these: http://www.amazon.co.uk/TrendyDigit...S9N8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1313603006&sr=8-2

It lasted a year and then the plastic desicated and split. The same happened to my other half's cover of the same make.

I now have one similar to this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aquapac-PDA...8?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1313603113&sr=1-8 which is much easier to use (when you seal it you *know* it's sealed, faster to take off/put on etc.) and seems to be holding up better.


----------



## newme (Aug 17, 2011)

The Octagon said:


> An odd comparison, paper books don't exactly thrive if dropped in water.



Mine happen to be excellent freestyle swimmers.


----------



## lobster (Aug 17, 2011)

I use one of these : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eco-Nique-N...XVSK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313607656&sr=8-1


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2011)

Bob_the_lost said:


> I had one of these: http://www.amazon.co.uk/TrendyDigit...S9N8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1313603006&sr=8-2
> 
> It lasted a year and then the plastic desicated and split. The same happened to my other half's cover of the same make.
> 
> I now have one similar to this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aquapac-PDA...8?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1313603113&sr=1-8 which is much easier to use (when you seal it you *know* it's sealed, faster to take off/put on etc.) and seems to be holding up better.


yup, get a beautiful, sleek, stylish n sexy device.  And then cover it in shitty ugly plastic mac that even a paedo would be ashamed of wearing!


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Aug 17, 2011)

belboid said:


> yup, get a beautiful, sleek, stylish n sexy device. And then cover it in shitty ugly plastic mac that even a paedo would be ashamed of wearing!


Then watch it bob around your bath like an unusually educational turd


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2011)

no better way to spend £150


----------



## gosub (Aug 18, 2011)

Cid said:


> How many books can you store in your book? how many magazines? Can you read a newspaper on your book? Can your book play music? Is it comfortable to hold your book and change pages with one hand? Does your book have a built in dictionary? Can you read PDFs on your book etc etc... *there are a few things the kindle is bad at*; cracked screens, cost of loss etc but it is a phenomenally good product. I love books, always have, and probably wouldn't give a child a Kindle, but they are generally a far better product for people who read a lot.



you missed undermining bookshops, which I will miss slightly more than record shops


----------



## Cid (Aug 18, 2011)

gosub said:


> you missed undermining bookshops, which I will miss slightly more than record shops



Nah, the bookshop's fate was sealed long before the Kindle; on-line retailers, increasing rents etc.


----------



## belboid (Aug 18, 2011)

Kindles will add very significantly to that process tho. The ability to download the first chapter for free undermines the great advantage actual shops have for scanning thru a book to see if you'll like it.  The fact that there is one major retailer will also have a dreadful effect upon the diversity of books that are actively promoted (something that has also happened in the physical bookworld with the dominance of Waterstones).  And then there's the loss of knowledgeable staff, people who can actually help find the book you cant quite remember the name of, etc etc


----------



## Pingu (Aug 18, 2011)

i love my kindle.. it fucking rocks. i can take hundreds of books wth me on my travels which .. is bleeding super cool.

However I still like the feel and smell you get from a real book and have no intention of not buying proper books


----------



## Cid (Aug 18, 2011)

belboid said:


> Kindles will add very significantly to that process tho. The ability to download the first chapter for free undermines the great advantage actual shops have for scanning thru a book to see if you'll like it. The fact that there is one major retailer will also have a dreadful effect upon the diversity of books that are actively promoted (something that has also happened in the physical bookworld with the dominance of Waterstones). And then there's the loss of knowledgeable staff, people who can actually help find the book you cant quite remember the name of, etc etc



Amazon already dominated the book market anyway and those previews were inevitable (they already had the 'look inside' thing after all). This is not due to the Kindle, it's a feature of shifts in retail to low-cost online models and a failure of physical shops to adapt.


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## gosub (Aug 18, 2011)

how can you adapt when you have higher overheads


----------



## belboid (Aug 18, 2011)

I think Amazxon & waterstones both sell roughly the same  amount of books actually - or at least they did a couple of years ago.

And bookshops are adapting.  Thats why so many of them have cafes and whathaveyou integrated within them. More instore events. And dumping staff


----------



## Pingu (Aug 18, 2011)

tbh the kindle 4 has a built in tasimo machine. i, for one, cant wait


----------



## ChrisFilter (Aug 18, 2011)

Apropos of nothing, I buy far more books via the Kindle app on my phone than I ever bought paperbacks.


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## newme (Aug 18, 2011)

belboid said:
			
		

> I dnt want to have all my books dissapear because my bags been nicked.



Actually Amazon keep a backup of every book you purchase for kindle, so all your books are safe.


----------



## belboid (Aug 18, 2011)

you've still lost them whilst on holiday.  And if you have non-amazon books, where are they?


----------



## newme (Aug 18, 2011)

belboid said:


> you've still lost them whilst on holiday.  And if you have non-amazon books, where are they?



If you had books in the bag that was lost, you would have lost those too. So equally bad in that respect.
Can't say I lose things enough that this is a concern.


----------



## belboid (Aug 18, 2011)

Nonsense. You dont carry around all your holiday reading around with you, so you'd still have all but one book back at your holiday home. And the idea that you can't have a bag nicked is not one that convinces me


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## newme (Aug 18, 2011)

belboid said:


> Nonsense. You dont carry around all your holiday reading around with you, so you'd still have all but one book back at your holiday home. And the idea that you can't have a bag nicked is not one that convinces me



Think you do far more reading on holiday than I do. Plus presumably have more holidays than me if this is such an overriding factor.


----------



## Cid (Aug 18, 2011)

gosub said:


> how can you adapt when you have higher overheads



Basically by diversifying, as Belboid says quite a lot of bigger bookshops have cafes now, so it becomes something of a cross between a library, a cafe and a shop.


----------



## scifisam (Aug 18, 2011)

belboid said:


> you've still lost them whilst on holiday. And if you have non-amazon books, where are they?



Probably on your computer, since you'll have had to download them and copy them over if they're non-Amazon books. And if you don't have internet access while on holiday (which is all you'd need for the Amazon books) then you're probably not on the kind of holiday where access to electronics is part of the plan.


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## belboid (Aug 18, 2011)

newme said:


> Think you do far more reading on holiday than I do.


well, I take the books....I dont necessarily read them...



scifisam said:


> And if you don't have internet access while on holiday (which is all you'd need for the Amazon books)


I'd need a new kindle to download them onto, too


----------



## newme (Aug 18, 2011)

belboid said:


> well, I take the books....I dont necessarily read them...
> 
> I'd need a new kindle to download them onto, too



Ah but if you weren't going to read them anyway, whats the giant hurry to have them replaced immediately


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 18, 2011)

Bob_the_lost said:


> II now have one similar to this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aquapac-PDA...8?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1313603113&sr=1-8 which is much easier to use (when you seal it you *know* it's sealed, faster to take off/put on etc.) and seems to be holding up better.



Ah should have thought of looking them, I've used one for years on my phone, which takes loads of abuse being shoved into damp pockets.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 18, 2011)

belboid said:


> you've still lost them whilst on holiday. And if you have non-amazon books, where are they?



On my hard disk...nothing to stop your storing them online if you want to back them up that way. Since getting a Kindle my record for hanging on to paperbacks has increased by almost 100%.


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## scifisam (Aug 18, 2011)

belboid said:


> well, I take the books....I dont necessarily read them...
> 
> I'd need a new kindle to download them onto, too



This is true. That's what holiday insurance is for.

I agree about it hastening the demise of bookshops, btw - that is a shame.


----------



## newme (Aug 18, 2011)

scifisam said:


> This is true. That's what holiday insurance is for.
> 
> I agree about it hastening the demise of bookshops, btw - that is a shame.



Saving trees tho.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 18, 2011)

I wonder how long it will be till we see generic e-readers being sold dirt cheap in places like Tesco and the like? I only reason I've got a Kindle as it seemed the only half decent option for my budget when I bought it.


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## Cid (Aug 18, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> I wonder how long it will be till we see generic e-readers being sold dirt cheap in places like Tesco and the like? I only reason I've got a Kindle as it seemed the only half decent option for my budget when I bought it.



Cheapest now (from a quick google) is this:







£52 from Asda apparently.

e2a: seems the cheapest ones use LED backlit screens, I'm sure e-ink's massive success in the last year will enable them to drop their prices a fair bit though.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 18, 2011)

Aye it would have to be e-ink for me to consider it an e-reader. Otherwise it's just a shit tablet.


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## craigxcraig (Aug 18, 2011)

My kindle recently went tits up (think I sat on my rucksack whilst at the airport...) I must say, having now spoken with Amazon how impressed I am by there aftersales. They're sending me a new kindle (to my brother in law, due in India in next couple of weeks) and I've 60 days to return my damaged kindle to them, all free of charge and cause it's linked to my acct, none of my books have been lost.


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## newme (Aug 18, 2011)

How long after you bought it was that? Tis rather good after sales certainly.


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## craigxcraig (Aug 19, 2011)

Totally - my wife bought it in March and comes with a one year guarente. Their normal rtn policy is thirty days but when told we're in India, extended to sixty. Whilst chatting to them on skype our connection became poor and the customer services guy followed our call with emails to resolve. Very impressed!


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## grit (Aug 19, 2011)

craigxcraig said:


> Totally - my wife bought it in March and comes with a one year guarente. Their normal rtn policy is thirty days but when told we're in India, extended to sixty. Whilst chatting to them on skype our connection became poor and the customer services guy followed our call with emails to resolve. Very impressed!



That was my experience as well when I had an issue with one I bought as a present, I think the best customer service I've come across when dealing with a return. I've never gotten a replacement unit before returning the original before.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 19, 2011)

They are rather spot on...the way they send out a new one before they get the old back is the crowning jewel.


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## grit (Aug 19, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> They are rather spot on...the way they send out a new one before they get the old back is the crowning jewel.



IT also gives a hint to just how much of a markup there is on the device.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 19, 2011)

Either that or they know the screens are breaking easier then they should and want to keep customers sweet so there is less bad press.

That and if you don't return the old one you get charged for another on you card that you payed with.


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## belboid (Aug 19, 2011)

naah, amazon are just quite good at that type of thing, nothing to do with the kindle specifically.  We bought a toaster for me bro-in-law for xmas (exciting beasts that we are) and when it broke last month, they sent a new one out as soon as we told them, and said to get the other one back in the 'next month or so'


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 19, 2011)

Good on them then! Although they could make finding a number on their website.


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## Bob_the_lost (Aug 19, 2011)

Hah, this thread is cursed. I just managed to total my kindle. It was laying next to me, i put my hand on it and snap, there goes the screen.

£50 for a repair if it's your fault it seems, i can live with that.


----------



## Cid (Aug 20, 2011)

Don't admit to it ya numpty, accidental screen damage is a common problem with them, and you can get away with saying you have no idea what happened.


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## Bob_the_lost (Aug 20, 2011)

I am one of the worlds worst liars, unless it's in the name of comedy in which case i do deadpan better than a crematorium workers dustpan.


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## craigxcraig (Aug 20, 2011)

grit said:


> IT also gives a hint to just how much of a markup there is on the device.



This in a nutshell - theres nowt 'special' about the kindle (though I'm a fan!)


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## grit (Aug 20, 2011)

craigxcraig said:


> This in a nutshell - theres nowt 'special' about the kindle (though I'm a fan!)



Its a design mantra that I wish we saw more of in consumer electronics, keep it simple stupid.


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## Cid (Aug 20, 2011)

Bob_the_lost said:


> I am one of the worlds worst liars, unless it's in the name of comedy in which case i do deadpan better than a crematorium workers dustpan.



It's hardly even a lie, I could sit on my iphone and the screen wouldn't break, any product should be able to stand up to at least some abuse.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 20, 2011)

love my kindle, but it's gonna kill bookshops, if i'm anything like a typical kindle user. i've read loads more than i did pre-kindle but only paid for a few books on it. i have about 500 books on it now, more than i'll ever probably get through. i suppose i will eventually buy paper books again, but at the mo, i can't imagine it.


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## strung out (Aug 20, 2011)

you can't have a very good imagination


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## Orang Utan (Aug 20, 2011)

i'm sure there will be a graphic novel that will eventually come along that i will feel the need to read, but fiction paperbacks...nah!


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## grit (Aug 20, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> i'm sure there will be a graphic novel that will eventually come along that i will feel the need to read, but fiction paperbacks...nah!



It does pdfs pretty well, if you could live without colour


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## Orang Utan (Aug 20, 2011)

i've only looked at one pdf. i imagine it would be a bit awkward looking at pictures though as you only have a small window. wouldn't you need to 'move' the page about to see everything. colour is necessary.
i dled the hare with the amber eyes and it was totally pointless trying to read the family tree which is necessary for understanding the story. maps in the george rr martin books are shite too.


----------



## mrs quoad (Aug 21, 2011)

It sounds as if it'd be a bit hopeless for academic use.

?


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Aug 21, 2011)

It isn't perfect. For pdf which contain mostly text it's fine but as soon as you want to introduce diagrams, code or images it's pretty poor. On that front you do want an e-reader that's a larger format and they don't make many of those at the moment. Damn you que!


----------



## craigxcraig (Aug 21, 2011)

grit said:


> It does pdfs pretty well, if you could live without colour



I did see someone with an iPad reading a graphic novel - the only time I've been sorely tempted by one.


----------



## innit (Aug 21, 2011)

mrs quoad said:


> It sounds as if it'd be a bit hopeless for academic use.
> 
> ?


Wouldn't work for me - i write on textbooks and for me, the act of physically marking the page is intimately connected with learning.

Highlighting on screen just wouldn't cut it.

I do adore my Kindle though - just not for learning.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 21, 2011)

Bob_the_lost said:


> It isn't perfect. For pdf which contain mostly text it's fine but as soon as you want to introduce diagrams, code or images it's pretty poor. On that front you do want an e-reader that's a larger format and they don't make many of those at the moment. Damn you que!


tbh, for me it's also what innit posted - the physicality of a text. I can usually remember where on a page (and where by feel, in a book / pdf) a quotation / snippet is. And it'll have my rapidly-formatted, hand-written shorthand next to it, alerting me to how significant / important it is.

Those are kinda the things that the Kindle loses, aren't they? Notes need to be typed (and - if formatting is available - specifically formatted). Even the best pdf editors / annotators I've found on the iPad don't get anywhere close to cutting it when compared to pen / ruler / highlighter / paper. So, yeah... I'd be surprised (though delighted) if the Kindle could offer anything that'd be particularly ace for that kinda reference-based use?


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## Orang Utan (Aug 21, 2011)

I think all this 'physicality' nonsense is romantic mush


----------



## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> I think all this 'physicality' nonsense is romantic mush


Your device is  made from limited resources, and will eventually become a source of toxic waste.  I'll stick to dead trees for the next few years, thanks.


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## grit (Aug 21, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Your device is made from limited resources, and will eventually become a source of toxic waste. I'll stick to dead trees for the next few years, thanks.



What about all the environmental damage caused by the transport of a physical good?


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## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

grit said:


> What about all the environmental damage caused by the transport of a physical good?


If you insist on going down that route, why not factor in the environmental impact of the internet itself?


----------



## grit (Aug 21, 2011)

Greebo said:


> If you insist on going down that route, why not factor in the environmental impact of the internet itself?



Thats not the internets sole function, so it doesn't seem like a good comparison.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Neither is transporting books the sole function of road haulage and the postal service.  Anyway, a wall covered in filled bookshelves makes better sound insulation than  one kindle ever will.

Stack a few large books on the floor and you've got a makeshift step or seating, or an emergency pan rest.  I'd like to see you do any of that with a kindle and still use it afterwards as more than a paperweight.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 21, 2011)

i've just downloaded the booker longlist. yah boo, grandparents!


----------



## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Don't I remember you getting a kindle stolen outside a pub?  If so, how long did you have to wait for the replacement?


----------



## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> i've just downloaded the booker longlist. yah boo, grandparents!


Quantity instead of quality, it it?  In previous years, some of them have been pretentious to the point of making me want to stuff my right arm with raw onions and then chew it off rather than continue reading.


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## mrs quoad (Aug 21, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> I think all this 'physicality' nonsense is romantic mush


Can you type margin notes on the Kindle as fast (and as formatted / eyegrabbing) as you could on a pdf printout / text?


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## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

One thing I was wondering about:
Once you've bought your kindle in the UK and have got it registered here, would it be possible to download e books in other languages (from elsewhere in the EU) without having to re-register or something?


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## Cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Neither is transporting books the sole function of road haulage and the postal service. Anyway, a wall covered in filled bookshelves makes better sound insulation than one kindle ever will.



But Kindle traffic represents a pretty small impact, most are less than 800kb which is a negligible amount of CO2 (from what I can find on a quick google it's less than 1/4g), a book on the other hand relies on extensive shipping, intensive forestry and road freight... Penguin say that a 500 page paperback uses roughly 2.5kg C02, so 10,000 times more energy intensive. Trees obviously also absorb carbon, don't know whether that's taken into account.

Of course the Kindle itself has a carbon footprint, I have no idea what this is. Even so, over it's lifespan, I will probably get at least 100 books out of it plus assorted magazines and newspapers and, considering it can't be more than an iPad that comes in at 160kg, that represents a decent saving. That's obviously pretty rough, but a lot of articles seem to agree... Material scarcity and waste is obviously an issue, and i think that's where the whole ebook reader market will succeed or fail.


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## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Cid said:


> But Kindle traffic represents a pretty small impact,<snip>Material scarcity and waste is obviously an issue, and i think that's where the whole ebook reader market will succeed or fail.


Okay, so what about getting foreign books (in a different language) etc onto the same kindle. I know they're available, but do you have to re-register your kindle or anything?

I'm asking because I reckon I've easily spent over £100 in the last 2 years on new & used (non educational) books in german and french, and if the same kindle could take them as well as English reading material then I'd consider getting one.


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## Cid (Aug 21, 2011)

mrs quoad said:


> Can you type margin notes on the Kindle as fast (and as formatted / eyegrabbing) as you could on a pdf printout / text?



From what I've tried it's a bit weak in this department, expect dramatic changes over the next few years though.


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## Cid (Aug 21, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Okay, so what about getting foreign books (in a different language) etc onto the same kindle. I know they're available, but do you have to re-register your kindle or anything?



http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&x=0&ref_=nb_ss&y=0&field-keywords=french edition&url=node=154606011

Not tried tbh, can't imagine it being a problem.

I'm not sure about character sets for non-latin alphabet languages though.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 21, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Okay, so what about getting foreign books (in a different language) etc onto the same kindle. I know they're available, but do you have to re-register your kindle or anything?



It's just another ebook reader. Nothing says you have to get them from amazon.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 21, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Don't I remember you getting a kindle stolen outside a pub?  If so, how long did you have to wait for the replacement?


Yep. It took a day, just as long as any item from Amazon would cost. Had to wait a bit before I could afford to replace it mind.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 21, 2011)

mrs quoad said:


> Can you type margin notes on the Kindle as fast (and as formatted / eyegrabbing) as you could on a pdf printout / text?


I don't know as that is not what I want a kindle for. wouldn't want to type on that keyboard mind! In any case, from recent experience, taking notes by keyboard is a vastly better way than writing them with a pen. I would need a proper keyboard though


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## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> It's just another ebook reader. Nothing says you have to get them from amazon.


The reason I'm asking is because if I only need to get one, it's viable.  Three would be difficult to justify though.

There's also the question of how much non-literature foreign fiction is in e book form (via a not that great mobile broadband).  I don't need it simplified, or formulaic, just reasonably-paced fiction in the original language.  Nothing too heavy-going, it gets read at the end of a long day or while waiting.

Sorry about the load of apparently silly questions - bear in mind that I don't use e books at all!


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## Orang Utan (Aug 21, 2011)

English speakers are surely not the only readers of ebooks?


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## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> Yep. It took a day, just as long as any item from Amazon would cost. Had to wait a bit before I could afford to replace it mind.


Okay, so given the thing would often get carried around central Brixton, Streatham, and Tulse Hill, I'd definitely need to insure the thing as well.  <adds to list of what to spend any spare money on>.

How does it stand up to being dropped on a solid floor?  Already wrote off a CD player this year that way.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 21, 2011)

I've dropped it onto wooden floors a few times though I wouldn't recommend it.


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## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> English speakers are surely not the only readers of ebooks?


Didn't say they were - I know they're available in other languages.  Does the kindle need to be re-registered for them though?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 21, 2011)

However the English speaking way leads the world in them at the moment. Tbh the sooner this stops being about the kindle and a single supplier the better, I think the market would be healthier for everyone with some real competition in places you can get legal content. At the moment if you don't get a Kindle, you're choice of content is limited if you want to read new books without using torrents.


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## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> I've dropped it onto wooden floors a few times though I wouldn't recommend it.


*adds shockproof/padded case to list* The floors here are concrete.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 21, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Didn't say they were - I know they're available in other languages. Does the kindle need to be re-registered for them though?



Amazon aren't the only way to get files on it. You can download a book from another source and copy it on with your PC as you do on to memory stick.


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## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> <snip>You can download a book from another source and copy it on with your PC as you do on to memory stick.


Okay, thanks for that.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 21, 2011)

Indeed! Free books FTW!


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## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> Indeed! Free books FTW!


*If* they're free, and there's the rub.  Need to find enough of the ones I'd want to read to justify the cost of device, downloading, case, and insurance. Another thing to probably get next year and no sooner - got enough to keep going with until then.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 21, 2011)

i'd check what books you can get for free first then. i managed to get a torrent of about 900 books for free, though i _only_ wanted to read about 500 of them! there are loads more in english but i'm sure there are just as many books in other languages. i wouldn't know where to look, but i'm sure you could find them on the net.


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## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Won't have the spare cash until March (cluster of winter birthdays), so plenty of time to look around.

Torrent not an option here.

OTOH might be able to ask bro to download something as a birthday & christmas present (Yule, but he's not going to stop calling it a christmas present just because I open it on the 21st and get a head start on the drinking etc before most people) on his broadband.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 21, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Torrent not an option here.



Do you mean because of bandwidth...you may be underestimating how small they are? Most books are far less then you would use watching something on you tube. Heck you could go past that very easily browsing urban in a day. After all they are only text.


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## Greebo (Aug 21, 2011)

Not just bandwidth - the signal here is extremely variable. Plus, the modem dongle keeps overheating - once a day or so. Just this one, not VP's. Then again, I don't think his has been dropped a couple of times either.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 22, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Not just bandwidth - the signal here is extremely variable. Plus, the modem keeps overheating - once a day or so. Just this one, not VP's. Then again, I don't think his has been dropped a couple of times either.



If you can keep the net functioning that you can post on urban, you can download ebooks, they really are tiny. I used to live the depth of the yorkshire dales, slow as heck wireless conection passed through the valley which died often. When it did I used my mobile on gsm mode, not even mobile "broadband" and had to turn images of on urban (even smiles) to use it...even at that usage I could have downloaded books.


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## newme (Aug 22, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Not just bandwidth - the signal here is extremely variable. Plus, the modem dongle keeps overheating - once a day or so. Just this one, not VP's. Then again, I don't think his has been dropped a couple of times either.



Even with a fairly poor signal you could get a book in less than a minute.


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## Greebo (Aug 22, 2011)

Okay, thanks for that. 

V annoying to be 5 miles as the crow flies from Victoria, yet unable to get proper broadband, unable to get cable, unable FFS to get a reliable mobile broadband system. Not just because of trees or tall buildings, but because it's a bloody council estate which BT thinks is too full of povs to upgrade the nearest junction box and the line supplying it! 

And relax....


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## newme (Aug 22, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Okay, thanks for that.
> 
> V annoying to be 5 miles as the crow flies from Victoria, yet unable to get proper broadband, unable to get cable, unable FFS to get a reliable mobile broadband system. Not just because of trees or tall buildings, but because it's a bloody council estate which BT thinks is too full of povs to upgrade the nearest junction box and the line supplying it!
> 
> And relax....



From what I hear there may be some forcing involved that will get upgrades done soonish, of course soonish and BT doesnt exactly inspire confidence tbh.


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## Greebo (Aug 22, 2011)

newme said:


> From what I hear there may be some forcing involved that will get upgrades done soonish, of course soonish and BT doesnt exactly inspire confidence tbh.


I won't hold my breath then.


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## scifisam (Aug 22, 2011)

Greebo, thanks for reminding me - I should use my Kindle for reading more books in foreign languages too. Turns out you can buy them through your normal Amazon account; you don't have to re-register on Amazon.de or whatever. I'm getting a few old German classics for free. 

Visting the .de site did inform me that Kindles are the same price in Euros as they are in pounds, so if any of you are going on holiday in Europe then you may as well have one sent to wherever you're staying, like I did in the US.

I also, for complicated reasons, bought a Kindle from Toys R Us in the US, and it broke immediately, due (I think) to my daughter sitting on it (and I told them this). Toys R Us were useless despite me purchasing an extended warranty from them, but Amazon are sending me a replacement. A free replacement for a product bought from a non-Amazon source in a different country and damaged by us, and they're replacing it straight away.

All the books I've bought via Amazon are available to both the Kindles registered to my account, btw.

Edit: Turns out I don't even have to send the damaged Kindle back, because it was bought abroad. Shame it really is unfixable!


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## maomao (Aug 22, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Okay, so what about getting foreign books (in a different language) etc onto the same kindle. I know they're available, but do you have to re-register your kindle or anything?
> 
> I'm asking because I reckon I've easily spent over £100 in the last 2 years on new & used (non educational) books in german and french, and if the same kindle could take them as well as English reading material then I'd consider getting one.



Mine handled short-form and long-form Chinese fine and with no adjustment so a couple of accents and umlauts shouldn't be a problem.


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## Greebo (Aug 22, 2011)

scifisam said:


> Greebo, thanks for reminding me - I should use my Kindle for reading more books in foreign languages too. Turns out you can buy them through your normal Amazon account; you don't have to re-register on Amazon.de or whatever. I'm getting a few old German classics for free.


Okay, thanks for that.  Modern German classics (Boll, Brecht, Falada) I really can take or leave.  Still, more choice means there's bound to be a few enjoyable books in there - right?

Checked amazon.de - looks like you can get a German kindle with English instructions.  Looking better already.


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## Cid (Aug 22, 2011)

newme said:


> Even with a fairly poor signal you could get a book in less than a minute.



Given that ebooks are usually less than 800kb, you could download one on an ancient 28.8kbps modem in less than 30 seconds.

Greebo - Project gutenberg has some foreign language stuff, not that much in German, but plenty of classics:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/search.html/?default_prefix=authors

Option to change language is at the bottom of the 'search start' page.


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## newme (Aug 22, 2011)

Cid said:


> Given that ebooks are usually less than 800kb, you could download one on an ancient 28.8kbps modem in less than 30 seconds.



Not quite. 28.8k modem gave a maximum theoretical download speed of 3.6k, which was more like 2.5k in reality.
800kb at 2.5k per second is 320 second, so 5 mins 20 seconds assuming full speed realistic speed from starting.

To get that in under 30 seconds you need a speed over 26.6k sustained download, giving a connection speed of 0.2Mb which you wouldn't have got.

My estimate was gives about 13.3k sustained so varying between 10-15k on a dodgy connection of 0.1mb, which ime is about right if its a really dodgy wireless. Giving 1 minute per ebook.


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## Cid (Aug 22, 2011)

Yeah, remembered that just after posting... Still shouldn't really be an issue on even the worst dongles.


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## rhod (Sep 7, 2011)

Well, after admiring the Missus' bookeen opus (that I mentioned earlier in the thread) for the last week, and contemplating the prospect of fighting over the damn thing I decided to get one myself. Had a look on Waterstone's ebay page again and noticed that they had an alternative ereader for sale.

It's an Elonex 511TEB. I thought I'd give it a spin.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Elonex-51...ets_eReaders&hash=item2313b486d8#ht_525wt_934

*Bad points so far*
Can't format .txt and .htm documents properly (- weird line breaks etc)
Doesn't mount to Linux to manage folders and files- OK on Windows, though.

*Good points so far*
Nice screen, refresh speed and page change buttons are better than Bookeen.
Displays epubs very well.
Stylus sensitive screen - handwriting recognition or keyboard for notes.
Text to voice is quite good - I've heard a lot worse on a "proper" computer.
Scribble memos and diagrams too using stylus.
Can record and store mp3 files.
4Gig capacity

Oh, and did I mention it's just *£39.99 !!!* - OK, it's a refurbed unit, but in excellent nick with original packaging and leads etc. Can't go wrong at that price


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## 100% masahiko (Sep 7, 2011)

rhod said:


> Well, after admiring the Missus' bookeen opus (that I mentioned earlier in the thread) for the last week, and contemplating the prospect of fighting over the damn thing I decided to get one myself. Had a look on Waterstone's ebay page again and noticed that they had an alternative ereader for sale.
> 
> It's an Elonex 511TEB. I thought I'd give it a spin.
> 
> ...



Is it still buggy as hell? Heard Chinese text would appear out of nowhere - maybe fixed now...


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## Random (Sep 7, 2011)

Sorry to dive in without reading the whoe thread - but is there a good 'generic' e-book reader yet? I don't want to tie myself in to Amazon, and have them deciding what I can read, deleting my books remotely, etc.


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## rhod (Sep 7, 2011)

> Is it still buggy as hell? Heard Chinese text would appear out of nowhere - maybe fixed now...




I've only had it a couple of days, but tested it out on a few different types & size of epub and it seems fine, so far. Made bookmarks and jumped back and forward through documents. No freezing yet, or Chinese text. I think this might have been a problem on the 511EB only? That was the non-touch screen version. They issued a firmware update for that model, but not for this - which might suggest this model did not have the same issues.


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## rhod (Sep 7, 2011)

Random said:


> Sorry to dive in without reading the whoe thread - but is there a good 'generic' e-book reader yet? I don't want to tie myself in to Amazon, and have them deciding what I can read, deleting my books remotely, etc.



You could try the Elonex model I mentioned a few posts ago. It's compatible with epubs and PDF/Adobe reader mobile. You can convert to epub from many other formats using a program called calibre. Depends on where you intend to get your books from & whether they are DRM protected or not.


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## Random (Sep 7, 2011)

Cheers!


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## 100% masahiko (Sep 7, 2011)

Are books cheaper on Waterstone? And is the range better than Amazon (one thing that's pissing me off is that I can't get the entire Jonathan Ames on Kindle edition)?


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## rhod (Sep 7, 2011)

I think Kindle currently has the widest range, and are probably pretty cheap. Of course there are ways to strip DRM if you want to, so that you can read the document on a generic device. I imagine the lack of all of Jonathan Ames catalogue on ebook formats is probably a rights/publishing issue.


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