# 114 arrested on conspiracy charges over alleged plan to protest



## In Bloom (Apr 13, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7996394.stm


> More than 100 people have been arrested in Nottingham over a suspected plan to target a power station.
> 
> Police said 114 men and women were arrested in Sneinton Dale on suspicion of conspiracy to commit aggravated trespass and criminal damage.
> 
> Officers said they believed those arrested were planning to protest at nearby Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station.


Worrying.


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## _pH_ (Apr 13, 2009)

I was just searching for a thread on this 

'Specialist equipment'


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## In Bloom (Apr 13, 2009)

_pH_ said:


> 'Specialist equipment'


Probably bolt cutters, D locks and/or climbing equipment.  Nothing you couldn't buy at B&Q.


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## _pH_ (Apr 13, 2009)

I thought as much, but the police statement obviously tries to sex it up a bit


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## ymu (Apr 13, 2009)

Not worrying. They rendezvoused at a school car-park in the middle of the night and made enough noise to rouse the neighbours, resulting in the cops being called before they'd managed to do anything. You can hardly expect the plod to politely wait until they'd successfully locked on.


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## _pH_ (Apr 13, 2009)

ymu said:


> Not worrying. They rendezvoused at a school car-park in the middle of the night and made enough noise to rouse the neighbours, resulting in the cops being called before they'd managed to do anything. You can hardly expect the plod to politely wait until they'd successfully locked on.



hmmmm. that was a bit daft tbf.


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Apr 13, 2009)

according to my bf who works in power and energy they always arrest people planning to protest near power stations.

This is becuase it potentially could affect the whole countrey.  If one power station goes off it could affect the 50hz balance of the national grid.


apparently they arrsested some poeple at Kings North power station a while back.


But then.  Me don't know the inns and outs.


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## In Bloom (Apr 13, 2009)

ymu said:


> Not worrying. They rendezvoused at a school car-park in the middle of the night and made enough noise to rouse the neighbours, resulting in the cops being called before they'd managed to do anything. You can hardly expect the plod to politely wait until they'd successfully locked on.


Ah, idiots.

Do we actually know whether they planned to target the power station or not though?


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## phildwyer (Apr 13, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7996394.stm
> 
> Worrying.



What do you expect?


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## laptop (Apr 13, 2009)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> according to my bf who works in power and energy they always arrest people planning to protest near power stations.
> 
> This is becuase it potentially could affect the whole countrey.  If one power station goes off it could affect the 50hz balance of the national grid.



That's what they'll say.

But it's mostly bollocks.

The system has to be able to cope with a station going off-line suddenly. Almost always, it does cope. Do the lights even blink when a nuke suffers a scram shutdown - which happens more often than you'd hope? No.

Just two or three times in the past decade, the grid in the US (which is shit) and in joined-up Europe have failed to cope - and iirc none of these blackouts were due to a simple supply outage.


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## In Bloom (Apr 13, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> What do you expect?


When I first heard about it, I'd gotten the impression they had arrested the protestors in advance of the protests, mass arrests before anything had gone on on that scale would be, to say the least, worrying, regardless of what I might or might not expect.


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## free spirit (Apr 13, 2009)

shit.



putting 2 & 2 together, I'm presuming this'll be linked to the Eastside Climate Action peeps who previously targeted that power station a couple of years back.

essentially the nottingham branch of the Climate Camp crew / EF.


should be a good, well sorted crew, but a hundred arrests is fucking nuts... no wonder there's nobody left to put the word out... bet they'll have raided all their houses and impounded all their computers and potentially mobiles as well, so it could take a while for word to get out.

there's stuff from greenpeace and FOE that says it's not them, so pretty much got to be this crew.


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## _pH_ (Apr 13, 2009)

wot laptop says. Power stations go off line all the time for maintenance, with the national grid drawing on supplies form elsewhere


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## _pH_ (Apr 13, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> When I first heard about it, I'd gotten the impression they had arrested the protestors in advance of the protests, mass arrests before anything had gone on on that scale would be, to say the least, worrying, regardless of what I might or might not expect.




but they were arrested for 'conspiracy'


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## ymu (Apr 13, 2009)

Regardless of the site, if the protest goes beyond what the law deems legitimate the police can lawfully intervene. If they found a bunch of people about to lock-on at Tesco's, they'd arrest them too.

Looks like these guys just fucked up by advertising their presence too early.


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## In Bloom (Apr 13, 2009)

_pH_ said:


> but they were arrested for 'conspiracy'


Yeah, that'll be because they'd only assembled, they hadn't reached the power plant or actually done anything yet.  It's a bollocks charge, but it's one the cops are quite fond of, since it's very difficult to prove that you weren't planning to do something.


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## ymu (Apr 13, 2009)

_pH_ said:


> but they were arrested for 'conspiracy'


Because they were arrested before they actually acted on the plan, so that's all they can be done for. IB thought they had been picked up in the planning stages - which would be worrying - but they were actually picked up at the rendezvous.


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## In Bloom (Apr 13, 2009)

ymu said:


> Regardless of the site, if the protest goes beyond what the law deems legitimate the police can lawfully intervene.


Actually, I'll think you'll find that the reverse is the case, the police cannot lawfully intervene unless the protest actually breaks the law or they have reasonable suspicion that it is about to, there's no legal requirement for protestors to seek legitimisation from the state.  At least, that's the ideal, the reality is somewhat different.


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## _pH_ (Apr 13, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Yeah, that'll be because they'd only assembled, they hadn't reached the power plant or actually done anything yet.  It's a bollocks charge, but it's one the cops are quite fond of, since it's very difficult to prove that you weren't planning to do something.





ymu said:


> Because they were arrested before they actually acted on the plan, so that's all they can be done for. IB thought they had been picked up in the planning stages - which would be worrying - but they were actually picked up at the rendezvous.



right yeah, with you now IB. sorry for being a thicky there


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## laptop (Apr 13, 2009)

It's worrying, because we now face a conspiracy trial. Which is sapping for any movement or campaign (not least because of the green ink). Which is what it's for.

It's also worrying because 114 people will - or should - shortly be reading Abbie Hoffman's testimony to the Chicago conspiracy trial.

And, provisionally, Sacha Baron Cohen has been cast as Abbie Hoffman, while Spielberg has approached Will Smith for a part 

Perhaps the state would do well to drop all charges


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## ymu (Apr 13, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Actually, I'll think you'll find that the reverse is the case, the police cannot lawfully intervene unless the protest actually breaks the law or they have reasonable suspicion that it is about to, there's no legal requirement for protestors to seek legitimisation from the state.  At least, that's the ideal, the reality is somewhat different.


I didn't say it anything different. I was just pointing out that it wasn't just power stations where arrests would be made if the premises were being obstructed, or there was reasonable suspicion that they were about to be.


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## ymu (Apr 13, 2009)

laptop said:


> It's worrying, because we now face a conspiracy trial. Which is sapping for any movement or campaign (not least because of the green ink). Which is what it's for.
> 
> It's also worrying because 114 people will - or should - shortly be reading Abbie Hoffman's testimony to the Chicago conspiracy trial.
> 
> ...


They were in the act of going ahead with the protest, so they would have been arrested at some point and would face a charge of conspiracy regardless. They just don't have aggravated trespass, criminal damage, made-up assault allegations to deal with as well.


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## brew (Apr 13, 2009)

If they're highlighting "specialist equipment", they could be intending to charge them with going equipped for criminal damage. That wouldn't take much; climbing harnesses, walkie talkies, lock-ons etc. As I understand it, criminal damage doesn't actually have to be permanent damage, in the normal sense. It can include actions that prevent the use of something, even on only a temporary basis. Anyway, I'm just (rather unhelpfully) guessing.


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## laptop (Apr 13, 2009)

Prosecutors rarely bring conspiracy charges for things that defendants have done. In front of a jury the risk, for the prosecution, is undermining the substantive charge - they can be and have been seen as laying it on too thick.

Defending a charge of conspiracy to do something that was not, in fact, done - whether in court or outside - is quite different to defending a substantive charge.

I look forward to a perverse acquittal


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## ymu (Apr 13, 2009)

laptop said:


> Prosecutors rarely bring conspiracy charges for things that defendants have done. In front of a jury the risk, for the prosecution, is undermining the substantive charge - they can be and have been seen as laying it on too thick.


Not necessarily true for protesters.



> Five campaigners against Brighton arms manufacturer EDO MBM were arrested after some of them locked themselves to the doors of the factory on October 3rd (see previous press release) in protest against the sale of weapons for conflicts in Iraq and Palestine.
> 
> 
> The five were arrested for minor charges on October 3rd at a protest at EDO MBM. However, their charges have were raised to 'Conspiracy to Commit Criminal Damage' which carries a maximum ten year sentence and must be tried in a Crown Court before a jury. They will appear in the Crown Court this Wednesday at 9.30am where the case will be transferred to. The trial will last for ten days.
> ...


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## Wilf (Apr 13, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> When I first heard about it, I'd gotten the impression they had arrested the protestors in advance of the protests, mass arrests before anything had gone on on that scale would be, to say the least, worrying, regardless of what I might or might not expect.



I'd guess this wasn't just police responding to then 'making a noise' at the start of the action.  That might have been the trigger, but it sounds a bit odd that they had that number of police and vans available at that time of night to respond -  and were able to respond so quickly (to people meeting up).  More likely the police were aware this was going to happen and simply responded to someone phoning in that it has started.  

Hard to tell if this is correct, but it does seem like a very well coordinated police response to an action that hadn't even got beyond the 'car park stage'.

E2a: the BBC report quotes a Councillor describing it as an "intelligence led operation".  Also, the residents reference to 'noise' seems to be the arrests themselves rather than the protesters gathering together.


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## lostexpectation (Apr 13, 2009)

it was highly unlikely 114 people were going to get through, or even  attempt to


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## _pH_ (Apr 13, 2009)

4thwrite said:


> I'd guess this wasn't just police responding to then 'making a noise' at the start of the action.  That might have been the trigger, but it sounds a bit odd that they had that number of police and vans available at that time of night to respond -  and were able to respond so quickly (to people meeting up).  More likely the police were aware this was going to happen and simply responded to someone phoning in that it has started.
> 
> Hard to tell if this is correct, but it does seem like a very well coordinated police response to an action that hadn't even got beyond the 'car park stage'.



I did wonder that too. Police being in sufficient numbers to arrest 114 people without knowing about it beforehand seems pretty impossible to me.


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## ymu (Apr 13, 2009)

4thwrite said:


> I'd guess this wasn't just police responding to then 'making a noise' at the start of the action.  That might have been the trigger, but it sounds a bit odd that they had that number of police and vans available at that time of night to respond -  and were able to respond so quickly (to people meeting up).  More likely the police were aware this was going to happen and simply responded to someone phoning in that it has started.
> 
> Hard to tell if this is correct, but it does seem like a very well coordinated police response to an action that hadn't even got beyond the 'car park stage'.


True. The police are claiming an "intelligence-led" operation.


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## Wilf (Apr 13, 2009)

... which all takes us back to IB's post 11 (sorry, don't know how to link to individual posts ).  

If there was intelligence that they were planning to genuinely put the power station at risk, you can see the police logic in doing a pre-emptive raid.

If however it was just the usual lock ons and the like - essentially _inconveniencing _the power station - it does represent a hardening of police tactics (though by no means the first example of this)


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## e19896 (Apr 13, 2009)

ymu said:


> True. The police are claiming an "intelligence-led" operation.



see http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/04/427421.html?c=all some speculation there on this:


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## Lily (Apr 13, 2009)

What is the conspiracy?

To trespass?

Trespass is surely a civil matter.

Hanging banners from cooling towers is perfectly legal if no damage is caused.


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## smashthestate (Apr 13, 2009)

Lily said:


> What is the conspiracy?
> 
> To trespass?
> 
> ...



Presumably *aggravated* trespass, which is a crime. I've never heard of conspiracy to commit aggravated trespass before, thought conspiracy to X was reserved for more serious things (criminal damage, murder etc).

They would argue that hanging banners from towers is illegal cos it would disrupt the lawful activity goign on at the power station.

e2a: I haven't posted on here for ages, just thought i'd check here for more info as BBC and indymedia between them don't say much.


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## ymu (Apr 13, 2009)

I think they'd have to have evidence of more than a banner drop. The Fairford coach was unlawfully detained and sent back.

To do it lawfully. I mean. I'm not assuming this was lawful. 114 sounds like an awful lot for in-yer-face DA.


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## e19896 (Apr 13, 2009)

ymu said:


> I think they'd have to have evidence of more than a banner drop. The Fairford coach was unlawfully detained and sent back.
> 
> To do it lawfully. I mean. I'm not assuming this was lawful. 114 sounds like an awful lot for in-yer-face DA.



http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/...421.html?c=all was rather quick for indymedia, if you read there it seems the police was acting on info given, this of course been a comment on a news wire, so yes speculation, but wtf 114 nicked all over the news this morning, is this just more Police disinformation re G20 evil anarchist etc.?

For them to nick 114 it would have to been (my feelings) well planned i.e. vans, detention space police to deal with, booking in and so it goes on, would they just act on a noise complaint as has been said on the BBC news? or indeed did they know and how did they know all speculation agreed but it makes you think..


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## laptop (Apr 13, 2009)

e19896 said:


> this of course been a comment on a newswire, so yes speculation



You left a calling card with one of those comments.


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## free spirit (Apr 13, 2009)

smashthestate said:


> Presumably *aggravated* trespass, which is a crime. I've never heard of conspiracy to commit aggravated trespass before, thought conspiracy to X was reserved for more serious things (criminal damage, murder etc).
> 
> They would argue that hanging banners from towers is illegal cos it would disrupt the lawful activity goign on at the power station.
> 
> e2a: I haven't posted on here for ages, just thought i'd check here for more info as BBC and indymedia between them don't say much.


conspiracy to commit criminal damage would be the most likely one I reckon, depends largely on what 'equipment' they found really... anyone with bolt cutters etc on them, or in their car could well be the excuse they need to charge everyone with it... or maybe just preidentified peeps.

be either a brave or foolish move on the police's part to prosecute them though given the recent greenpeace precedent of successfully using the defence of the damage being justified to prevent the greater crime of climate change. 

depends what the police's motives are really, if they just want to cause the activists so much hastle that they'll burn out, then it's worth them prosecuting I guess, but it could also backfire like the greenpeace one did.

Greenpeace do tend to be more careful about preparing their actions in such a way as to allow this type of defence to work, so it's not a magic get out of jail free card.... ie I hope these folks did it right as well.


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## e19896 (Apr 13, 2009)

laptop said:


> You left a calling card with one of those comments.



As you ask source please?


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## Divisive Cotton (Apr 13, 2009)

e19896 said:


> For them to nick 114 it would have to been (my feelings) well planned i.e. vans, detention space police to deal with, booking in and so it goes on, would they just act on a noise complaint as has been said on the BBC news? or indeed did they know and how did they know all speculation agreed but it makes you think..



I would say it's pretty easy to nick that amount of people in one swoop - scoop them up into two coaches and away they go

I remember on one of the Irish marches in the 90s they hoovered up around 300 fascists off the streets and whisked them away before the march reached them


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## free spirit (Apr 13, 2009)

Divisive Cotton said:


> I would say it's pretty easy to nick that amount of people in one swoop - scoop them up into two coaches and away they go
> 
> I remember on one of the Irish marches in the 90s they hoovered up around 300 fascists off the streets and whisked them away before the march reached them


yes, but only if it's been planned in advance.

no way would the police have had enough resources to arrest 100 people at once at midnight on a standard sunday night.

*thinks*

hmm, actually they might have had if it had been shift change time, and they got the shift that was finishing to stick around an extra hour or 2 so that they temporarily had double the number of officers on duty.

much more likely it was a planned operation though IMO


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## free spirit (Apr 13, 2009)

Just remembered this case, which should mean they have a fair idea what they're doing, good legal support etc.



> *   No case to answer after Notts E.On protest *
> 
> Notts IMC + Tash |      18.01.2009 20:35                                           | Climate Chaos             | Ecology                        | Nottinghamshire
> Two environmentalists, arrested following a blockade of E.On's Nottingham offices, had the case against them dismissed on Wednesday. The case collapsed after it emerged that the prosecution had offered no evidence to support the charge of aggravated trespass. The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) were found to have been negligent in their administration of the case and were ordered to pay the defence's costs.
> ...


[nots indymedia]


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## free spirit (Apr 13, 2009)

> Nottingham's Climate Criminals
> 
> Pat |      13.04.2009 13:55                                              | Climate Chaos                        | Nottinghamshire
> It may be only speculation that "Officers said they believed those arrested were planning to protest at nearby Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station."
> ...


also from the notts indymedia feed, which pretty much means it is who I thought it was... (note the veggies.org.uk link)


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## Lily (Apr 13, 2009)

smashthestate said:


> Presumably *aggravated* trespass, which is a crime. I've never heard of conspiracy to commit aggravated trespass before, thought conspiracy to X was reserved for more serious things (criminal damage, murder etc).
> 
> They would argue that hanging banners from towers is illegal cos* it would disrupt the lawful activity going on* at the power station.


That could be said about any action or demo.

That could be said about me fumbling for my ticket whilst standing at the top of an escalator on the underground.
*(Breaking News : Mass arrests of French tourists.)* Heh!


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## free spirit (Apr 13, 2009)

> Police have carried out what is thought to be the biggest pre-emptive raid on environmental campaigners in UK history, arresting 114 people believed to be planning direct action at a coal-fired power station.The arrests - for conspiracy to commit criminal damage and aggravated trespass - come amid growing concern among campaigners about increased police surveillance and groups being infiltrated by informers.
> 
> Nottinghamshire police said the raid on an independent school in Nottingham was made just after midnight this morning. The force said it seized "specialist equipment" thought to be linked to a planned protest at nearby Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station, a coal plant owned by the utility company E.On.
> 
> ...


[gruaniad]




> Today reports have begun to circulate that police have carried out what according to the Guardian "is thought to be the biggest pre-emptive raid on environmental campaigners in UK history, arresting 114 people believed to be planning direct action at a coal-fired power station". The arrests don't really come as a huge surprise to me. What we are witnessing today is a massive increase in police surveillance of environmental campaigners and an increasing number of environmental groups being infiltrated by informers.


[gruaniad cif]


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## free spirit (Apr 13, 2009)

Lily said:


> That could be said about any action or demo.


I think that may well have been the point... hence why the CJA was seen by many as a line in the sand type piece of legislation... they crossed the line in the sand and have just kept on going ever since.



Lily said:


> That could be said about me fumbling for my ticket whilst standing at the top of an escalator on the underground.
> *(Breaking News : Mass arrests of French tourists.)* Heh!


hmm, well, only if you refused to move when asked to, and refused to leave when asked etc.


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## winjer (Apr 13, 2009)

ymu said:


> Not necessarily true for protesters.


I wish they'd be more careful about putting *all* their press releases on the site:

'Conspiracy Prosecution Comes Unstuck'
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/08/406698.html

"_Five anti-war protesters were found not guilty at 4pm on Wednesday after an eleven day trial at Brighton Crown Court. The jury took only four hours to find all defendants not guilty of 'Conspiracy to Cause Criminal Damage'._"


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## OneStrike (Apr 13, 2009)

Just to add a little local knowledge, (having lived there), the place where the Police arrested the group is not in any way discreet, it's on a fairly busy road a few minutes walk from the City Centre.  And to get to the power station mentioned would require 3 buses and at least a 15 minute drive.


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## free spirit (Apr 13, 2009)

Smurker said:


> Just to add a little local knowledge, (having lived there), the place where the Police arrested the group is not in any way discreet, it's on a fairly busy road a few minutes walk from the City Centre.  And to get to the power station mentioned would require 3 buses and at least a 15 minute drive.


hmm... and how close is it to the alt location hinted at in that indymedia post I quoted?

(the veggies one)


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## lostexpectation (Apr 13, 2009)

prosecutions isn't really what this is about its about nicking them now


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## moon23 (Apr 13, 2009)

The conspiracy charge won't stick, it  will 

1: Stop the action
2: put other people off from attempting it, e.g. fluffy types are scared and your serious activists get paranoid about doing further actions whilst the plod are waiving a conspiracy charge over their heads. The charges will be no futher actioned leaving the threat of a future charge over people’s head.

The National grid is fragile, one outage may not  cut it off, but the plod will be looking at France and Germany where the grid has been targeted with some success and be worried about any escalation of civil unrest at the moment.

Specialized equipment is probably a few d-locks and some bolt cutters. Just in the  same way as plastic bottles get re-branded as *missiles*

We can read from this that 

People are prepared to escalate the conflict against the status quo, and that the state is prepared to fight back.


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## moon23 (Apr 13, 2009)

smashthestate said:


> Presumably *aggravated* trespass, which is a crime. I've never heard of conspiracy to commit aggravated trespass before, thought conspiracy to X was reserved for more serious things (criminal damage, murder etc).
> 
> They would argue that hanging banners from towers is illegal cos it would disrupt the lawful activity goign on at the power station.
> 
> e2a: I haven't posted on here for ages, just thought i'd check here for more info as BBC and indymedia between them don't say much.



Yes thanks to the Criminal Justice Act there now exists the new charge of aggravated trespass which is a criminal rather than civil act. They won't be able to prove a conspiracy in court though.


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## OneStrike (Apr 13, 2009)

free spirit said:


> hmm... and how close is it to the alt location hinted at in that indymedia post I quoted?
> 
> (the veggies one)





  Missed that FS!   The alt location is a short walk away, that makes much more sense to me, not as appealing a news story if you can't mention a power station or two.


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## bezzer (Apr 13, 2009)

seems with the passing of all this terror legislation, a nasty little security complex has grown up in this country - if we stopped protesting then we would make a lot of people unemployed...


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## free spirit (Apr 13, 2009)

Smurker said:


> Missed that FS!   The alt location is a short walk away, that makes much more sense to me, not as appealing a news story if you can't mention a power station or two.


presumed that was what was being hinted at.


don't think they need to be looking for a deep mole in their organisation then if the police can't even work out what the target was meant to be... either that or there'd been some deliberate misinformation going on (from one side or the other).


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## david dissadent (Apr 13, 2009)

The government seems increadibly keen to defend coal power stations.


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## e19896 (Apr 13, 2009)

Divisive Cotton said:


> I would say it's pretty easy to nick that amount of people in one swoop - scoop them up into two coaches and away they go
> 
> I remember on one of the Irish marches in the 90s they hoovered up around 300 fascists off the streets and whisked them away before the march reached them



Yes and no and i rember what your talking about, but lets move on as there are people who read here you would not give info to, idd agree but needs some thought and planning, this leads me to the thought inside info? not that one is saying either way and people involved have come forowrd while ive been in the pub ive known for some years so to be trusted, lap top gone quite mind you..


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## lopsidedbunny (Apr 13, 2009)

In Bloom said:


> Probably bolt cutters, D locks and/or climbing equipment.  Nothing you couldn't buy at B&Q.



Yeah I agree, it a bit naff to say the least.


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## lopsidedbunny (Apr 13, 2009)

ymu said:


> Not worrying. They rendezvoused at a school car-park in the middle of the night and made enough noise to rouse the neighbours, resulting in the cops being called before they'd managed to do anything. You can hardly expect the plod to politely wait until they'd successfully locked on.



I think it was well planned by the pigs rather than the noise that tipped them off.


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## e19896 (Apr 13, 2009)

lopsidedbunny said:


> I think it was well planned by the pigs rather than the noise that tipped them off.



So this be, it was not the noise that tipped them off, who did needs to be asked, or was they following and keeping people under there watchfull eye, of course speculation, but how did The Police Know?


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## OneStrike (Apr 13, 2009)

Don't shoot me down! i admit i have no idea, but if there was suspicion for an 'attack' upon a power station would the police have extra powers to use covert evidence gathering, phone bugs and the like.  Assuming it fell under counter Terrorism measures?  I doubt it is relevant, i'm just curious.


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## ymu (Apr 13, 2009)

lopsidedbunny said:


> I think it was well planned by the pigs rather than the noise that tipped them off.


It's certainly looking that way.

It's hard to keep stuff quiet with that many people. Be interesting to know exactly how they got the info though.


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## e19896 (Apr 13, 2009)

ymu said:


> It's certainly looking that way.
> 
> It's hard to keep stuff quiet with that many people. Be interesting to know exactly how they got the info though.



agreed in context, but think about it for a moment only a few need to know, get them to said loaction ie meeting point this being the school, sleep early morning rise food coffee tea, a written location and asked not to be talked about etc paper eaten or got rid off so nothing is left.

onto location, enter and then take action, much as what happend at the opencast action, but other shit happend there people got busted, same people involved so one is told, people busted of course speculation, but come it aint hard to work out such an action with large no,s..


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## OneStrike (Apr 13, 2009)

Looks like it could have been the Power station, lots of minibuses e.t.c. were left at the meet.  Suprised they didn't meet somewhere more private to be honest.


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## Wilf (Apr 13, 2009)

lopsidedbunny said:


> I think it was well planned by the pigs rather than the noise that tipped them off.



Probably something as straightforward as monitoring e-mails (though I'd hope they weren't so daft as to circulate the final details elecronically) or, more likely, mobile phones.  Might even have simply been following people as they headed for the meet up.

As touched on in other posts, I'd guess green direct action is probably the second biggest area of police/intelligence activity at the moment - but a _very _long way behind the policing of Muslim radicals.  In fact so far behind it that they wouldn't bother with the effort of getting somebody 'inside' groupings like this.  Dunno though, I'm guessing...


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## lopsidedbunny (Apr 13, 2009)

Remember the "undercover" agent empolyed by the Corprate companies not so long ago who posted his personal detials on the web (Myspace?) and got found out.  To rub salt in the wound someone gave him false information by claiming that there were going to be a demo held at Hyde Park which ended up in the Evening Standard... these protesters groups get all sorts of two bit "protesters" in the club... both coppers and corp' security agencies employees sadly.


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## winjer (Apr 14, 2009)

4thwrite said:


> though I'd hope they weren't so daft as to circulate the final details elecronically


Lower your expectations


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## free spirit (Apr 14, 2009)

winjer said:


> Lower your expectations


carrier pidgeon is the only way to be sure IME...


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## winjer (Apr 14, 2009)

Smurker said:


> The alt location is a short walk away, that makes much more sense to me, not as appealing a news story if you can't mention a power station or two.


"Climate Rush comment on Sneinton arrests over planned Ratcliffe...

A group called Climate Rush said they had been planning a non-violent protest at a power station - but were arrested before they could carry it out..."
http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/h...er-protest/article-897366-detail/article.html

Link doesn't work at the moment, but google lists it.


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## OneStrike (Apr 14, 2009)

Logic suggested that the alternative place was more practical,  apparenttly losts of minibuses e.t.c. are still left at the sire, so maybe the power station was the intended site of protest.  I hope they are all ok, horrible situation waiting for your court appearance, especially for those with families e.t.c.


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## free spirit (Apr 14, 2009)

winjer said:


> "Climate Rush comment on Sneinton arrests over planned Ratcliffe...
> 
> A group called Climate Rush said they had been planning a non-violent protest at a power station - but were arrested before they could carry it out..."
> http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/h...er-protest/article-897366-detail/article.html
> ...



could be I guess.

I got the feeling climate rush were fairly well connected (eg support from caroline lucas on their website), but potentialy a bit non worldly wise about the potential for police action, and the need to take precautions... all a bit jolly hockey sticks, which I guess could explain the complete silance from them since the arrests if they've not had press / legal contacts stashed safely offsite to co-ordinate the response if the police did take this kind of action.

easy to sit on the sofa and criticise though I guess


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## gentlegreen (Apr 14, 2009)

david dissadent said:


> The government seems increadibly keen to defend coal power stations.


The "conspiracy" thing is clearly worrying, but these people are idiots.

They had one on "Today" earlier.

"shut down all power stations now" ....



Presumably he wants a massive nuclear programme... or for us all to leave the cities and get a strip of land and a mud hut.

I blame the drugs - or the organic green tea ...

I wonder if he passed his physics GCSE ....


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## GoneCoastal (Apr 14, 2009)

All 114 released on bail http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7997598.stm


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## laptop (Apr 14, 2009)

Three forces involved, so the probability of it being a spur-of-the-moment response to loud chat at the gathering point is vanishingly small.


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## e19896 (Apr 14, 2009)

laptop said:


> Three forces involved, so the probability of it being a spur-of-the-moment response to loud chat at the gathering point is vanishingly small.





laptop said:


> You left a calling card with one of those comments.



Your source please, or are you like moust in your trade masters of disinformation?


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## Kaka Tim (Apr 14, 2009)

Wouldn't be at all suprised if the cops had an informer within the group. Wouldn't be a cop or a spook - more like somebody connected with the activist movement who they have 'turned' - possibly through threateneing to prosecute him/her for something else. 

Aynone know if  MI5 got a dedicated team targetting environmental protestors?


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## free spirit (Apr 14, 2009)

e19896 said:


> Yes and no and i rember what your talking about, but lets move on as there are people who read here you would not give info to, idd agree but needs some thought and planning, this leads me to the thought inside info? not that one is saying either way and people involved have come forowrd while ive been in the pub ive known for some years so to be trusted, *lap top gone quite mind you..*





e19896 said:


> Your source please, *or are you like moust in your trade masters of disinformation?*



his source presumably was the article linked to in the post prior to his which stated the following...



> More than 200 officers from Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Staffordshire and British Transport Police took part in the raid at the Iona School shortly after midnight on Monday.



which was pretty easy to work out really.

If you want to retain even the tiniest hint of credibility on here though I'd seriously suggest you actually listen to what Laptop was saying to you on the other thread, rather than lashing out at him and attempting to smear him as a potential informant. That is what you were hinting at isn't it?


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## laptop (Apr 14, 2009)

e19896 said:


> Your source please



I am pleased to see that you now make it clear when you are speculating.

My source for the first is the link you gave to the indymedia page where someone offers a speculation. You write here as though you're reporting someone else's speculation; but oddly enough that person shares typing tics with you. That is all.

My source for the second is the BBC report linked immediately above.



e19896 said:


> or are you like moust in your trade masters of disinformation?



I think you would find, were you to read this correspondence, that my subject here is accurate information and that what I ask of *you* is honest reporting.


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## free spirit (Apr 14, 2009)

Kaka Tim said:


> Wouldn't be at all suprised if the cops had an informer within the group. Wouldn't be a cop or a spook - more like somebody connected with the activist movement who they have 'turned' - possibly through threateneing to prosecute him/her for something else.
> 
> Aynone know if  MI5 got a dedicated team targetting environmental protestors?


not sure, but probably. IMO that's what this smear campaign attempting to label us as eco terrorists has been about, ie justifying bringing us into the remit of MI5 and GCHQ.

the purpose of this though I doubt would be for MI5 to actually put informers in place necessarily, much more likely that it'd be to enable them to use their electronic surveillance methods against us. I very much doubt that the police have the ability to do much electronically beyond the odd wire tap, but GCHQ would have the ability to have computers sat there constantly churning through data on thousands of mobile phones, email accounts etc etc to do stuff like pattern analysis, look for unusual clusters of mobile phone locations together to indicate potential meetings, and if the paranoid activists are correct then listen in to the meeting via any mobile or fixed line phones that haven't had the battery removed... not entirely sure how possible the last bit is (though it defo works on landlines)... they could also use the mobile phone location data to get info on potential targets, and meet points etc.

most of this can be done pretty easily largely automatically, and it's exactly the sort of programming they'd have had to develop to use against al queida, so it'd have taken sod all effort to reconfigue it and input all the data they've been gathering on us lot over the last 20 odd years, and turn it against us.

probably in this case though that they just got access to the email list / facebook group, and got most of their info this way.

there are ways around this, but you need the entire group involved to buy into it fully, and not just think you're being overly paranoid etc. otherwise someone will let something slip at some point... done right though it could also be used to lay some nice little false trails. It'd only take a couple of entirely wasted 200 person 3 force operations before the police really started to question the intel they were getting IMO.


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## winjer (Apr 14, 2009)

free spirit said:


> look for unusual clusters of mobile phone locations together to indicate potential meetings, and if the paranoid activists are correct then listen in to the meeting via any mobile or fixed line phones that haven't had the battery removed...


Or look for clusters of mobile phones that suddenly drop of the network all together when they're switched off at the same time.

The point of taking batteries out of mobiles is not that the police can listen in if you don't, it's to show other people that the phone is definitely off.


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## free spirit (Apr 14, 2009)

winjer said:


> Or look for clusters of mobile phones that suddenly drop of the network all together when they're switched off at the same time.
> 
> The point of taking batteries out of mobiles is not that the police can listen in if you don't, it's to show other people that the phone is definitely off.


nah, it's both.

the bit about MI5 / GCHQ listening in may just be precautionary bollocks, but being as we'd not know what their capabilities actually are until 30 years down the line, it does seem pretty sensible as it's not really beyond the realms of what could be technically possible.

better safe than sorry eh


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## winjer (Apr 14, 2009)

free spirit said:


> it does seem pretty sensible as it's not really beyond the realms of what could be technically possible.


Keep believing that if you want, I'll stick with the laws of physics.


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## two sheds (Apr 14, 2009)

There was a stunning radio adaptation a while ago on the rise of Nazism by Kressman Taylor called “Address Unknown”. It’s an exchange of (fictional) letters set before the war between a German Jew Max living in the US and his friend/ex business partner Martin, who went back to live in Germany in early 30s. Their letters become increasingly distant as Martin increasingly buys into anti-Semitism. Martin then says he can’t write to Max any more because of the new laws that have come in preventing contact with Jews. 

  Max’s sister shortly after happens to go to Berlin, but disappears and his letters are returned to Max ‘Addressee Unknown’ (Adressant Unbekant). Max pleads with Martin for his help in finding her. Eventually Martin replies that the sister had arrived at his house chased by Storm Troopers, and that he had had to turn her away and she was caught and killed. Martin points out how dangerous it was for him that a Jewess had turned up at his house, and demands that Max write to him no more since he will have no dealings with Jews apart from on financial matters. 

  Max sends a series of cablegrams: “Your terms accepted.  November audit shows 13% increase. February fourfold assured. Planned exhibition May. Prepare leave from Moscow if market opens unexpectedly. Financial instructions mailed new address. Eisenstein”. … “American contributors will furnish 1000 brushes for your German Young Painters League. Mandleberg has joined in supporting the League. You must send eleven Picasso reproductions, twenty by ninety to branch galleries on the 25th, no sooner. Reds and blues must predominate. We can allow you $8,000 on this transaction at present. Start new accounts book”. … “Good news. Our stock reached 116 … Swiss miniatures are having a vogue … plan to be in Zurich … Uncle Solomon will be glad to see you and we know you will rely heavily on his efforts.” “Rebus says he must write more briefly and clearly so that everyone … I’m sure … may want to take your family with you Before leaving, however, … Reubens 15 by 204 blue and yellow’ All the cablegrams are signed “Eisenstein”. 

  Along the way Martin writes in panic that he has been called in by the Nazis who demanded to know the Code. He has to resign his office, his son is thrown out of the Boys’ Core, his daughter is thrown out of extra classes. He writes “I am in fear for my life, Max. … No more.” Max's final cablegram is: “A shipment of 1500 brushes … will reach your Berlin associates … The God of Moses be at your Right Hand. Eisenstein”. It is returned, stamped “Addressant Unbekant”. .


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 14, 2009)

Looking at how groups like Climate Camp and Keep It In The Ground organise (neccessarily one could argue, for being open and accountable) it is not remotely suprising that they are heavily infiltrated.

They will need to re-think how to balance open-ness with security. Bloody hell that sounds like the neolab excuse for security paranoia. The state might be determined to make us all paranoid as they are.


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## free spirit (Apr 14, 2009)

winjer said:


> Keep believing that if you want, I'll stick with the laws of physics.


really?

I must have missed that lesson.

is the ability of mobile phone operating systems to withstand viruses capable of telling the phone to open a line to a specified number upon receipt of a specified bit of code sent from outside in the same way that the phone regularly responds to code sent from the nearest transmitters asking it to respond to determine which transmitter's closer, a standard physics law?

best tell the FBI then eh.

I'd not be worried about it if I couldn't see a mechanism that'd make it technically possible for them to do it, and this is not just possible, it's such an obvious and relatively simple thing for the security services to have done that they'd have to be pretty incompetant not to have done it. Note that I'm not saying they've gone to all this effort simply to bug some hippies, but once they've spent the time and resources developing the code and techniques to enable them to do it against AQ or organised crime, then this just becomes another standard tool in their arsenal that they can use at virtually no cost against anyone else they chose to, eco activists included.

I'm not talking about the police having direct access to the technology either, I'm talking specifically about GCHQ having this ability, and the ability to turn it against us at will if and when we're deemed a big enough thread for them to worry about. The recent press smears labelling us as eco-terrorists, and the level and manor of these arrests together with the raised profile of environmental actions of late would give a good indication to me that the intelligence services are stepping this up a gear, which makes it highly likely that GCHQ would be involved IMO.


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## e19896 (Apr 14, 2009)

free spirit said:


> his source presumably was the article linked to in the post prior to his which stated the following...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not at all, i would not hint just say how it is, this said how did The Police know?


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## winjer (Apr 14, 2009)

free spirit said:


> is the ability of mobile phone operating systems to withstand viruses capable of telling the phone to open a line to a specified number upon receipt of a specified bit of code sent from outside in the same way that the phone regularly responds to code sent from the nearest transmitters asking it to respond to determine which transmitter's closer, a standard physics law?


No, it's the ability of batteries to power such transmissions without noticeable drops in charge, and for older/simpler phones the complete unability to run such code.



> best tell the FBI then eh.


Nextels are not regular mobile phones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialized_Mobile_Radio
and I'm familiar with the Ardito case, which doesn't negate my point about physics in the slightest :yawn:


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## e19896 (Apr 14, 2009)

> A mass police raid in the early hours of yesterday morning resulted in the arrests of 114 individuals in the grounds of a Sneinton school. Those arrested have been released on bail following questioning related to “suspicion of conspiracy to commit trespass and aggravated criminal damage”. The police are saying that those arrested were “planning a period of prolonged disruption to the safe running of Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station”. The Nottingham Evening Post, in it’s usual measured and objective style, is saying that there was a “plot to attack a power station”.
> 
> Whilst this kind of raid is unprecedented in size, it is nothing new in the world of direct action. There is even a precedent in environmental direct action in the region, with police arresting eight people for “conspiracy to cause a public nuisance” in relation to anti-M1 widening protests in 2007. After a year on bail, the 8 had the charges against them thrown out of court.
> 
> As is now usual for those accused of environmental direct action, several raids were made on the homes of those arrested and the Sumac Centre was raided. When raids were being made in the aftermath of a blockade of E.On’s offices last year, they used keys from the accuseds’ personal possessions and attempts to observe the police’s actions were met with refusal and intimidation. The police often use these raids to confiscate important personal belongings such as computers until the investigation is over - a punishment for the arrested irrespective of whether they are ever actually convicted.



http://autonomousnott.wordpress.com/


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## free spirit (Apr 14, 2009)

e19896 said:


> Not at all, i would not hint just say how it is, this said how did The Police know?


don't know, but there's a fair few possibilities.

could be a plant, could be some of the stuff I mention above, info picked up / overheard at the climate camp kettle, or could be that the police had simply added themselves to a relatively open email list and received enough details via email to piece it together, or a combination of some or all of the above.


the presence of 3 forces IMO doesn't actuall necessarily indicate much advance notice of the operation, as it could also be a sign that the operation was pulled together using the Mutual Aid system to request urgent support from surrounding forces, though I think it's more likely they had advance intelligence.


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## free spirit (Apr 14, 2009)

winjer said:


> No, it's the ability of batteries to power such transmissions without noticeable drops in charge, and for older/simpler phones the complete unability to run such code.
> 
> 
> Nextels are not regular mobile phones.
> ...


wait, what?

when and where did I say anything about them being able to do this either on old phones, or without causing the battery power levels to drop?

you just dreamt that up.

yes it may only work on certain types of phone, on newer phones etc, and yes people may notice their battery has been drained, but none of that means it's not possible to do, which is what you'd made out, and continue to make out in this post by talking about it going against the laws of physics.

perhaps you could be so kind as to spell out exactly how this goes against the laws of physics.


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## Wilf (Apr 14, 2009)

Kaka Tim said:


> Wouldn't be at all suprised if the cops had an informer within the group. Wouldn't be a cop or a spook - more like somebody connected with the activist movement who they have 'turned' - possibly through threateneing to prosecute him/her for something else.
> 
> Aynone know if  MI5 got a dedicated team targetting environmental protestors?



Possibly, but as l-bunny suggested, might have been a power company placement


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## e19896 (Apr 14, 2009)

free spirit said:


> don't know, but there's a fair few possibilities.
> 
> could be a plant, could be some of the stuff I mention above, info picked up / overheard at the climate camp kettle, or could be that the police had simply added themselves to a relatively open email list and received enough details via email to piece it together, or a combination of some or all of the above.
> 
> ...



Read my other post on this, but i feel there is a Police Informer within see http://autonomousnott.wordpress.com/ for a good update and links to past actions involving said alleged Police Informer,.

An action at an opencast went ahead no Police there, when we met in the dead of night at a community center, only those who needed to know had the information of where we was going to hit, 5am wake up we are all given a note telling us where said location was and the aim of the action, we was asked to rid ourselves of the note..

We move off, aksed to keep mobiles switched off etc, get to the location of Dolehill at Wingerworth, Chesterfield the place was taken out of service shall we say, it was then talked about going to occupy the office of RGB, of which we did some hours latter we are all nicked for the theft of a yoghurt, ie burgulary.

We are all detained and interviewed, not one of us talks apart from one person, we are all then charged and a court case of several months ensues, following this some of no longer was involved..

However the person who talked, is still active, and each time a Mass Action has been planned with them involved it has been nicked, further prove of what i call speculation, is during The G8 Ministers Meetings in Sheffield, The Police had a good idea of our plans, none was talked about on email or phones, but only in closed meetings of which alleged police infromer was there, and when the convergance space become a social center they become involved.

You might ask why did i continue to be involved, because i was told by trusted people what i thought was not fact, so move along, now following the nicking of 114 people i raise it again as a posibilty not an absolute, but it needs to be asked



> In the meantime, we will need to keep a look out for the fallout of these arrests and support anyone who is charged. The cops have certainly not beaten climate change movement but we do need to rethink how we organise and act.http://autonomousnott.wordpress.com/


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## free spirit (Apr 14, 2009)

e19896 said:


> Read my other post on this, but i feel there is a Police Informer within see http://autonomousnott.wordpress.com/ for a good update and links to past actions involving said alleged Police Informer,.
> 
> An action at an opencast went ahead no Police there, when we met in the dead of night at a community center, only those who needed to know had the information of where we was going to hit, 5am wake up we are all given a note telling us where said location was and the aim of the action, we was asked to rid ourselves of the note..
> 
> ...


I'm not discounting the possibility that there is an informer. 

The release of historic records under the 30 year rule has shown that they've had high ranked long term informers in place in pretty much every vaguely effective campaigning organisation in the past, so we'd be pretty naive to think they'd not attempt it this time.

From what you're saying, it sounds pretty likely to be the case here. I'm a bit confused though, did this person give evidence that was used in court against you / everyone on that RGB action, or signed statements that were seen by anyone etc. if so, why has anyone allowed themselves to work with them again? and if not, how do you know that they talked?


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## winjer (Apr 14, 2009)

free spirit said:


> wait, what?
> 
> when and where did I say anything about them being able to do this either on old phones, or without causing the battery power levels to drop?
> 
> you just dreamt that up.


Now who's picking fights for the sake of it?


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## free spirit (Apr 14, 2009)

winjer said:


> Now who's picking fights for the sake of it?


not me.

you pretty clearly implied that it was against the laws of physics for anyone to be able to use a mobile phone as a remote microphone / bug.

You then state essentially that it's not possible on older phones, or without causing a noticable drop in battery power, which would kinda imply that it was technically possible on newer phones but that there would be a noticable drop in battery power... ie not against the laws of physics at all.

what is against the laws of physics would be for a phone to be able to do this when it's power source has been removed... so we get back to this being a sensible precaution as it removes any possibility of this method of surveillance being successfully used against you.

for me this is not an argument for the sake of it, as it's discussing the finer points of what is and isn't a sensible precaution to take against the probable increased intelligence services interests in our movements activities, and could be the difference between successful actions, and a series of pre-emptive busts that demoralise the entire movement. So IMO it'd be helpful if you would either expand on your statement to explain why you believe it's against the laws of physics, or retract / modify / clarify it.

that is the sole purpose of this interaction from my side anyway


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## winjer (Apr 14, 2009)

free spirit said:


> you pretty clearly implied that it was against the laws of physics for anyone to be able to use a mobile phone as a remote microphone / bug.


No, I clearly implied that it was not a sensible precaution, but a paranoid delusion to believe that the state might be listening to any mobile phone, any time. You've provided no reason for anyone with even a basic knowledge of electronics or mobile networks to think anything different, if you can't be bothered to even think this through to that level then there's no point me explaining it any further.


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## winjer (Apr 14, 2009)

Kaka Tim said:


> Wouldn't be at all suprised if the cops had an informer within the group. Wouldn't be a cop or a spook - more like somebody connected with the activist movement who they have 'turned' - possibly through threateneing to prosecute him/her for something else.


My understanding is that the Climate Rush folk were very loose with details over email lists, crossposting etc, so I think a proper informer is not likely.



> Aynone know if  MI5 got a dedicated team targetting environmental protestors?


Not since they shut down F branch, it's the job of the Branch.


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## e19896 (Apr 14, 2009)

free spirit said:


> I'm not discounting the possibility that there is an informer.
> 
> The release of historic records under the 30 year rule has shown that they've had high ranked long term informers in place in pretty much every vaguely effective campaigning organisation in the past, so we'd be pretty naive to think they'd not attempt it this time.
> 
> From what you're saying, it sounds pretty likely to be the case here. I'm a bit confused though, did this person give evidence that was used in court against you / everyone on that RGB action, or signed statements that were seen by anyone etc. if so, why has anyone allowed themselves to work with them again? and if not, how do you know that they talked?



We all did no reply in interviews, they talked and said person x did eat said yogert, dispite the fact we all agreed to keep our mouths shut, at court it was much the same, i decided to trust them regards G8 Sheffield, but events and happenings lead me to thinking they talked againe, now this and i know there involved at the planning stage of such events, but as said all speculation..


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## ymu (Apr 14, 2009)

free spirit said:


> and if the paranoid activists are correct then listen in to the meeting via any mobile or fixed line phones that haven't had the battery removed... not entirely sure how possible the last bit is (though it defo works on landlines)...


It's possible, and it is used by law enforcement agencies. The only paranoia is whether your grouplet is enough of a target for this stuff to be used against them.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-150467.html




			
				December 2006 said:
			
		

> The FBI appears to have begun using a novel form of electronic surveillance in criminal investigations: remotely activating a mobile phone's microphone and using it to eavesdrop on nearby conversations.
> 
> The technique is called a "roving bug," and was approved by top U.S. Department of Justice officials for use against members of a New York organized crime family who were wary of conventional surveillance techniques such as tailing a suspect or wiretapping him.


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## ymu (Apr 14, 2009)

Oops. Sorry. Missed the last page. Apologies for redundant post.


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## free spirit (Apr 14, 2009)

winjer said:


> No, I clearly implied that it was not a sensible precaution, but a paranoid delusion to believe that the state might be listening to any mobile phone, any time. You've provided no reason for anyone with even a basic knowledge of electronics or mobile networks to think anything different, if you can't be bothered to even think this through to that level then there's no point me explaining it any further.


er no, this is what I said if you'd care to read it and play a little game of spot the difference.



> I very much doubt that the police have the ability to do much electronically beyond the odd wire tap, but GCHQ would have the ability to have computers sat there constantly churning through data on thousands of mobile phones, email accounts etc etc to do stuff like pattern analysis, l*ook for unusual clusters of mobile phone locations together to indicate potential meetings, and if the paranoid activists are correct then listen in to the meeting via any mobile or fixed line phones that haven't had the battery removed...*



there's a major difference between listening to any phone at any time, and being able to listen into specific targeted phones at specific targeted times, such as when several known activists mobile phone signals put them together in the same location which would potentially indicate that a meeting could be taking place, that might be worth a listen.

note that my opinion has not altered from the first statement to the last, precisely because I have thought this through, yours on the other hand has wibbled about all over the place from saying it defies the laws of physics to saying that it can't be done on old phones or that it'd use up power from the battery (well duh).

believe what you want to believe, but don't go around spouting stuff about posts I make defying the laws of physics if you're not prepared to even expand on the point to show what you mean... at least don't do that and not expect it to get my back up.


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## ymu (Apr 14, 2009)

Batteries out before leaving home then.


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## david dissadent (Apr 14, 2009)

You have to admire the balls of the police officer who ordered this raid. I mean it’s a huge career risk ordering 200 police to swing into action to stop a climate protest and hoping to god no one gets shot in Nottingham that night. You will have one hell of a day explaining why all those officers were not out preventing gun toting gangsters if something does go awry, hell if anyone gets burgled Id imagine the local press might have the odd word to say about the allocation of police resources.…… 

Unless this crowd planned something pretty fucking spectacular like a couple of kilos of C4 in a turbine hall or a truckload of ANFO outside the EON headquarters then this looks totally OTT. On the whole these protests merely replicate mechanical failures that any fitter or engineer would see on a regular basis. Chaining yourself to a conveyer belt? Well not unlike the drive motor packing in is it. Somehow industrial civilization in the UK does not come to a grinding halt with every turbine failure or conveyer belt that packs up in a Power station.

I keep getting the overwhelming impression that someone at the home office has a real bee in their bonnet over climate change activists. Maybe their Mrs ran off with a crusty from greenpeace or something.


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## Corax (Apr 14, 2009)

ymu said:


> Batteries out before leaving home then.



Even better I'd have thought, would be to leave it at home and use a cheaply-obtained, unregistered pay-as-you-go instead.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 14, 2009)

A good graun piece from the activist POV. Apols if already posted.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2009/apr/14/activism-climate-change


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## free spirit (Apr 14, 2009)

Corax said:


> Even better I'd have thought, would be to leave it at home and use a cheaply-obtained, unregistered pay-as-you-go instead.


to a certain extent, but unregistered phones could fairly quickly be linked for intelligence gathering purposes as being of interest based on calls made to other phones being watched etc.

but there's been mention of the government wanting to make it so that all mobiles have to be registered, so this avenue may well not be open for long


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## lopsidedbunny (Apr 14, 2009)

I did read the the *police broke into the wrong building by mistake and rasacked* the "self-funded" special needs school by mistake the building they were after was a building next door so in the mean time the police had taken all the equipment meant for the school's use. The School is damaged beyond repair and as it self funded they have no money to repair what been taken or damaged. So they had to closed down the school until the lenghtly reclaiming damages from the police materised....

read link...

* Climate Raids - Police Wrongly Break Into School and Seize Learning Equipment *
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/04/427466.html


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## laptop (Apr 14, 2009)

"We thought protesters were planning to gum up a power station with Plasticine®"


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## david dissadent (Apr 14, 2009)

The suggestion by a lawyer on Newsnight was that the arrests were aimed at getting the bail conditions. Sort of an easy means of imposing ASBOs.


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## e19896 (Apr 15, 2009)

Climate change activists seem to be split into two camps.

1. Eco-toffs and their middle class arse-licking sycophants:

These fuckers want to save the planet by restricting the working class to charabang day trips for holidays so that they can continue their jetset lifestyles on the back of working class carbon savings. Unfortunately, in terms of climate, these daft twats have carbon footprints that far outweigh any savings that would be gained from reducing the working class to forelock tugging peasants.

2. Dozy primmo hippies:

These year zero Pol Pot tits would like us all to scratch a living dirt farming turnips so that we can eat them by candlelight - fucking mental bastards. Yes Reinold, I mean you.

I care about the environment in which I live, and the world that my grandchildren will inherit, but the antics of these idiots only encourages me to burn railway sleepers, old tyres, lignite and plastic packaging to spite them.


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## Corax (Apr 15, 2009)

Yay for solidarity....


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## laptop (Apr 15, 2009)

Of course, the only working-class people that climate change affects are the turncoats who have learned to read and understand what's going on - so fair enough?


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## e19896 (Apr 15, 2009)

Corax said:


> Yay for solidarity....



Do not get me wrong the actions of The Police was out of order, but ive no time for the politics, or class of those involved, but will defend there right to protest (to some extent) I will defend the freedom of speech and self protest:


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## Wilf (Apr 15, 2009)

e19896 said:


> Climate change activists seem to be split into two camps.
> 
> 1. Eco-toffs and their middle class arse-licking sycophants:
> 
> ...



I personally haven't got much time for Plane Stupid and there is a bit of a history of rich youngsters claiming 'leadership' roles in environmentalism (Zac Goldsmith et al).  However, generalising from that that the whole movement is anti-working class is pointless.  Moreover, this just isn't the thrread for it.


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## e19896 (Apr 15, 2009)

4thwrite said:


> I personally haven't got much time for Plane Stupid and there is a bit of a history of rich youngsters claiming 'leadership' roles in environmentalism (Zac Goldsmith et al).  However, generalising from that that the whole movement is anti-working class is pointless.  Moreover, this just isn't the thrread for it.



So we are talking about 114 people being nicked, no doubt some of them if not all of them are as you said, and what here is not the place to point it out? this is no generalising if what we are told they was going to do ie shut down a power station on a bank holiday monday (to be true?), a time of peak power, this bigest impact it would have had is upon the working class, those useing the power and those working there.

Of course this was an indirect anti working class attack, I disagree with power stations, but simply saying there wrong lets on mass close one down is not in any circumstance going to win over the working class, not going to make us think of alternatives, such as wind power etc.

The whole climate change debate is based upon bogus information, no doubt modern life is having an impact of Mother Earth, (yes I hug trees) and I do try and lead a life that work with Mother Earth not against her, but these sad mothers are a part of the problem and closing down a power station is not going to change much, it might get an headline, feed the ego of those involved for a while, no what will change people is direct communication education.

I do take issue with how the Police acted on this, because first they come for The Middle Class then they come for the Working Class etc., how they acted is of concern for us all, but I will also ask was it right for them in the first place to go for a Power Station like this, and I will say of course not, yes due to fact of me being openly classiest (it would be lie not to say this) but the wider impactions of there ill thought out, not planed so well actions.


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## moon23 (Apr 15, 2009)

free spirit said:


> to a certain extent, but unregistered phones could fairly quickly be linked for intelligence gathering purposes as being of interest based on calls made to other phones being watched etc.
> 
> but there's been mention of the government wanting to make it so that all mobiles have to be registered, so this avenue may well not be open for long



Yes or you take your new phone home and it's located at your home address or run through the system and crossed referenced with being turned on as your over phone gets turned off, or you buy new phone with your own phone on you and it's linked to point of sale.

It's not fool proof. Face it we live in a 100% survillance society, big brother has won and you either need mass revolution or to use legal methods of change. We were far too complicent about allowing the state to build the infastructure to trap us in a virtual prison.


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## GoneCoastal (Apr 16, 2009)

Interesting article about pre-charge bail conditions (apols if already posted) http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2009/apr/14/activism-pre-emptive-action

(And how wide open for abuse they are)


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## winjer (Apr 16, 2009)

Shame Bibi is so crap on facts.

"A limited form of this came along in the criminal justice bill in 2002" - Criminal Justice Act 2003

"A couple of years ago, for example, post-charge bail conditions were imposed on members of activist group Fit Watch which prevented them entering the M25"

Fitwatch didn't exist a couple of years ago (June 2007 for pedants), and those conditions were imposed much more recently.


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## winjer (Apr 16, 2009)

ymu said:


> It's possible, and it is used by law enforcement agencies. The only paranoia is whether your grouplet is enough of a target for this stuff to be used against them.


Or well-funded enough to buy Nextels.


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## GoneCoastal (Apr 16, 2009)

winjer said:


> Shame Bibi is so crap on facts.
> 
> "A limited form of this came along in the criminal justice bill in 2002" - Criminal Justice Act 2003
> 
> ...


Fair enough...   I only picked it up because it was on a twitter feed


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 23, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> They will need to re-think how to balance open-ness with security. Bloody hell that sounds like the neolab excuse for security paranoia. The state might be determined to make us all paranoid as they are.



It's a tricky issue alright, but we should remember that there is a clear difference between being security conscious as an activist and paranoia and secrecy displayed by the state. An activist is responsible for his or her own actions and nothing else and so has every right to keep secrets, particularly from a state with an ever diminishing appreciation of the concept of fair play; the state acts in our name and is funded by us and so has no right whatsoever to keep secrets from us. 

In my activist days I had my doubts about some of the precautions people took when planning actions (won't list them here, if you know what I mean then you'll know what I mean) and whether they didn't amount to excessive paranoia. This raid is proof that the plod really do think it's worthwhile to use extensive surveillance against peaceful activists however, so I guess I'll have to rethink that one.

Apols if it has been posted already but this article is a good discussion of all the guilty-until-proven-innocent skullduggery employed by the pigs in this case. No surprise that they're opting for ridiculous bail conditions, harassment and petty theft as punishment rather than troubling the courts, given that the last 'conspiracy to commit aggravated trespass' case in Nottinghamshire was thrown out of court...


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 23, 2009)

e19896 said:


> Climate change activists seem to be split into two camps.
> 
> 1. Eco-toffs and their middle class arse-licking sycophants:
> 
> ...





I'd comment properly but I can't be arsed and what I would like to say will probably get me banned.


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## Azrael (Apr 23, 2009)

GoneCoastal said:


> Interesting article about pre-charge bail conditions (apols if already posted) http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2009/apr/14/activism-pre-emptive-action
> 
> (And how wide open for abuse they are)


I believe people can still appeal to magistrates to have the bail conditions varied. I also remember something about the police only being able to impose conditions if they have enough evidence for a charge, but need CPS approval. You'd have to check with a lawyer on that.  

Regardless, the concept of "police bail" (bail that facilitates investigation) is an extension of "investigative detention" and has no place in a common law system. So far as I know Scotland doesn't have it, and we shouldn't either. It's wide open for abuse, and even if it isn't abused, it's not justified.


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## Azrael (Apr 23, 2009)

And the flip side is, serious criminals are being turned loose under these powers. 

Like all "tough" law, they're hard on the innocent and soft on the guilty.


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## Corax (Apr 23, 2009)

This does not go nearly far enough.


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## Kaka Tim (Apr 24, 2009)

Kaka Tim said:


> Wouldn't be at all suprised if the cops had an informer within the group. Wouldn't be a cop or a spook - more like somebody connected with the activist movement who they have 'turned' - possibly through threateneing to prosecute him/her for something else.
> 
> Aynone know if  MI5 got a dedicated team targetting environmental protestors?



Looks like this answers my earlier specualtion

*
Police caught on tape trying to recruit protester as spy*
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/24/strathclyde-police-plane-stupid-recruit-spy

Compelling evidence that environmental activists are beng seriously targetted - and infiltrated -  by the secret police
police


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## lostexpectation (May 4, 2009)

isn't the  reason why most groups don't protest secretly, but make it known they are going to protest, 

makes me doubt these type of climate protesters even more.


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## Paulie Tandoori (May 4, 2009)

yeah, fuckers, they did look like they might be wrong uns eh?! 

bloody secret protests (and public ones!!!!!) fuckers 

i doubt everyone now, even you....


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## winjer (Jul 6, 2009)

> Police will take no further action against 67 of the eco-protesters who were arrested over an alleged threat to Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station. The other 47 of the 114 arrested in April remain on police bail pending further investigation.


http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/h...rotestors/article-1139374-detail/article.html


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