# Thatcher at the Senedd



## Dic Penderyn (May 18, 2008)

Worse than the old hag turning up for a visit. 
THEY'RE PUTTING UP A HUGE IMAGE OF HER!!! 

in the Western Fail

I'm actually shocked, I've no love for the assembly, but I'm really surprised they've put a statue up of her!!

Unveiling on Wednesday, dunno what time.


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## FaradayCaged (May 18, 2008)

Aneurin Bevan hairy muff, but THATCHER!? definately not hairy muff, well, probably does.


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## GarfieldLeChat (May 18, 2008)

i give it a month before it's totalled by someone...

it's a bit like going the the knesset in isreal and errecting a picture of hitler and say well if it wasn't for him we'd not have a home land now...

can't see isreal every prasing hitler and can't see the welsh standing for glorifaction of thatcher either...

perhaps they could take it down drag it off to offers dyke and stuff it full of hay and once a year have a cermonial burning of it like a welsh angel of the north mixed with the wicker man...


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## FaradayCaged (May 18, 2008)

or just dump it in the bay


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## Udo Erasmus (May 19, 2008)

Maybe some of our nationalist Assembly Members need to be reminded about what Thatcher did to the working class as they have on at least two occasions stated that they would be prepared to work with them "in the interests of Wales". They came within a whisker of forming a "rainbow coalition" that would have brought the Tories back into power last year, and while remembering what happened the last time the tories were in power, people might not find it so edifying to hear that  leading Nationalists Adam Price MP and Alex Salmond MP have stated that in the event of a hung parliament after the general election they would be prepared to block with the Tories.

I heard Eamonn McCann speak, of Raytheon 9 and Irish Civil Rights fame & he mentioned that on the civil rights marches in the 60s two of the key slogans on placards were: "Tories out North and South" (ie attacking unionists on a class rather than nationalist basis and hitting out at the ruling class in the South of Ireland" and "Tories are Vermin - Aneurin Bevan".


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## Udo Erasmus (May 19, 2008)

ANEURIN BEVAN: 
*
"That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were." 

"The House of Commons is like a church. The vaulted roofs and stained glass windows, the rows of statues of great statesmen of the past, the echoing halls, the soft-footed attendants and the whispered conversations, contrast depressingly with the crowded meetings and the clang and clash of hot opinions he has just left behind in the election campaign. Here he is, a tribune of the people, coming to make his voice heard in the seats of power. Instead, it seems he is expected to worship; and the most conservative of all religions - ancestor worship. "

"We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run down. "
"Observer", 6 December 1953. 

I read the newspapers avidly. It is my one form of continuous fiction. 
Interview in The Times, 29 March 1960.*


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## Dic Penderyn (May 19, 2008)

there's even a facebook group about it... http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=17669671690


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## CRI (May 19, 2008)

Anyone want to take bets on how long it will be before it gets defaced?


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## editor (May 19, 2008)

*packs hammer
*books ticket to Cardiff.


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## mwgdrwg (May 19, 2008)

Wtf!


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## Belushi (May 19, 2008)

It aint going to last five fucking minutes. I know its part of an art project but I find it pretty fucking offensive tbh.


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## Hocus Eye. (May 19, 2008)

The idea of a Thatcher statue in Wales is at the very least tactless and insensitive.  At worst it is a howling insult, an insult as bad as Gordon Brown inviting Thatcher to Downing Street.  They will need to have a security guard employed full time to oversee that so called piece of art.  The reference to it casting a shadow is most apposite

Apologies for coming in to the Welsh forum.  I am English but did live for a year in Cardiff as a post-grad student.  I'll have a pint of Brains SA while I am here.


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## Belushi (May 19, 2008)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Apologies for coming in to the Welsh forum.  I am English but did live for a year in Cardiff as a post-grad student.  I'll have a pint of Brains SA while I am here.



Quick, everyone start speaking Welsh


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## editor (May 19, 2008)

Can you imagine the outraged rumblings that are going to erupt in the ex-mining communities about this?

I reckon this Thatcher homage is going to have a lifespan of weeks, if not days.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 19, 2008)

Their should be even more outrage that leading figures in Plaid and SNP have stated that in the event of a hung parliament they would be prepared to prop up the tories in Parliament - nationalism betrays the class once more.

_*"That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were." - Nye Bevan *_


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## lewislewis (May 19, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Their should be even more outrage that leading figures in Plaid and SNP have stated that in the event of a hung parliament they would be prepared to prop up the tories in Parliament - nationalism betrays the class once more.



If they give us a parliament, so that Thatcher if she should ever be reborn wouldn't be able to rule over us. That's the point you're failing to grasp. Back to the paper sale.


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## ddraig (May 19, 2008)

Udo
please shut up and stop telling people what they should be more outraged about eh?

start another shouty BLOCK CAPITOL thread if you must


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## Udo Erasmus (May 20, 2008)

David Cameron: I want to be The New Thatcher

I think it is perfectly pertinent if we are outraged about a statue of Thatcher to say what an utter disgrace that Nationalists in Scotland and Wales seem to have forgotten what 17 years of Thatcher was like and are already offering their solidarity with the Tories in exchange for a few crumbs off the table. Any red blooded socialist would be absolutely sickened - this is true insult to the working class of Wales and the spirit of those who fought back in 1984.


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## poster342002 (May 20, 2008)

Slight aside, but I note the similarity of the word "senedd" to "senate". Is it a literal translation?


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## Udo Erasmus (May 20, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> Slight aside, but I note the similarity of the word "senedd" to "senate". Is it a literal translation?



This might help give some background:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/southeast/sites/assembly/pages/history.shtml


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## Dic Penderyn (May 20, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> Slight aside, but I note the similarity of the word "senedd" to "senate". Is it a literal translation?



Pretty much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senedd


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## penderyn2000 (May 20, 2008)

Comment at http://radicalsocialist.org.


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## Belushi (May 20, 2008)

Lot of Penderyns round her nowadays


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## lewislewis (May 20, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> David Cameron: I want to be The New Thatcher
> 
> I think it is perfectly pertinent if we are outraged about a statue of Thatcher to say what an utter disgrace that Nationalists in Scotland and Wales seem to have forgotten what 17 years of Thatcher was like and are already offering their solidarity with the Tories in exchange for a few crumbs off the table. Any red blooded socialist would be absolutely sickened - this is true insult to the working class of Wales and the spirit of those who fought back in 1984.



It's about control of our own affairs not a few crumbs off the table. I am growing increasingly annoyed at your posts!

The advent of a Cameron-led new Thatcherism is precisely why we need self-government for Wales. To prevent his attacks against our people. Cameron will never win a majority in Wales and thus should not have any democratic mandate from the people of Wales.
The paradox for him is that his party will have more of an influence in Wales if he cedes more power to Wales with its proportional representation element at elections.

More important things going on at the Senedd today though to be honest, was anyone listening to the radio earlier? Some very disappointing comments about 'asylum seekers' from the general public in response to the WAG's ruling that failed asylum seekers (awaiting deportation or during appeal) should be allowed free healthcare. A progressive ruling that doesn't apply in England.


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## llantwit (May 20, 2008)

It is indeed a progressive ruling. I was drawn to this line in the BBC report, though:


> Previously, the Welsh assembly had passed regulations to introduce charging for secondary healthcare for refused asylum seekers.
> The regulations, which meant charges for all forms of secondary care, except treatment provided in accident and emergency (A&E) departments, were passed in April 2004.


I wasn't aware of that one, and am disgusted that it got passed without some kind of public discussion. Asylum seems to be one of those issues where it's just assumed by politicians that 'public opinion' equals the hate-filled rants of Daily Mail leaders. My suspicion is that most peoples' attitudes to asylum issues are a lot more moderate than that.


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## Threshers_Flail (May 20, 2008)

Not that this makes sense in the slightest anyway, but Thatcher in the past has said that devolved power in Wales and Scotland should be withdrawn by a future Tory party even if they have popular support. I do hope this thing gets vandalized in some way.


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## lewislewis (May 20, 2008)

Cameron doesn't agree with that.


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## Dic Penderyn (May 21, 2008)

hmmm, not only of a picture of a horrible woman, but no very good art either (imho, I realise these things are subjective). bbc report


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## lewislewis (May 21, 2008)

Bloody horrible. It is only temporary though, thankfully. The responses have also been very encouraging, I think.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 21, 2008)

I think one positive thing about the picture is that is does capture the sense that there was a clash in Wales. That labour and capital were in sharp conflict, that our history was contested by different forces.
In this sense, the picture is more authentic than much of the re-writing of Welsh history that is going on at the moment. For the nationalists, South Wales as a site of sharp class war doesn’t fit into their picture of a nation cosily united against English oppression.
Hence, a whole culture that was English speaking and working class is being supressed in the interests of the “National Project”.
The kind of pitched battles that have been fought in Wales: The Newport and Merthyr Risings, The Rebecca Riots, The General Strike of 26, Little Moscows in the Valleys, The Fed & the Great Miners Strike of 1984 don’t fit into the airbrushed image of “The New Wales” - many know more about Hywel Dda than Dic Penderyn or Lewislewis. If you look in the local history section of a mainstream bookshop  will see all kinds of books on nationalism, Gwynfor Evans, but no books on the Labour Party and labour movement, despite these traditions having dominated Welsh politics in the South for generations.
A whole history and culture is being abandoned and reshaped because it doesn’t fit into the nationalist ideology. The history of our class is being supressed because it challenges those who would wish to forge new chains to bind us with, and sew new illusions.


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## Belushi (May 21, 2008)

> For the nationalists, South Wales as a site of sharp class war doesn’t fit into their picture of a nation cosily united against English oppression.



Thats actually bollocks Udo, but dont let that stop you.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 21, 2008)

Belushi said:


> Thats actually bollocks Udo, but dont let that stop you.



What specifically is 'bollocks'? Wales was a site of sharp class struggles and working class struggle. The Nationalists would rather celebrate people like Hywel Dda from the Middle Ages because they want to cultivate the idea of a Wales that was united and a common community from the past to the prsent, to talk about working class struggle and conflict within Wales would challenge the project of creating a "national culture" and "national identity". Of course, some nationalists do allude to this history (giving it a nationalist twist), but when they do they domesticate the struggle or paint it in a way that robs it of its claws. In general, my point stands.

Over to you, belushi


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## Belushi (May 21, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> What specifically is 'bollocks'? Wales was a site of sharp class struggles and working class struggle. The Nationalists would rather celebrate people like Hywel Dda from the Middle Ages because they want to cultivate the idea of a Wales that was united and a common community from the past to the prsent, to talk about working class struggle and conflict within Wales would challenge the project of creating a "national culture" and "national identity". Of course, some nationalists do allude to this history (giving it a nationalist twist), but when they do they domesticate the struggle or paint it in a way that robs it of its claws. In general, my point stands.
> 
> Over to you, belushi



Third rate caricature of nationalism.

And you dont need to lecture me about the class struggle in the valleys I was there in 1984, unlike yourself.


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## lewislewis (May 21, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> In this sense, the picture is more authentic than much of the re-writing of Welsh history that is going on at the moment. For the nationalists, South Wales as a site of sharp class war doesn’t fit into their picture of a nation cosily united against English oppression.
> Hence, a whole culture that was English speaking and working class is being supressed in the interests of the “National Project”.



You're nuts.

I'm English-speaking and working class and very much part of the national project, albeit a more critical part.

I think your attitude is divisive.


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## lewislewis (May 21, 2008)

llantwit said:


> It is indeed a progressive ruling. I was drawn to this line in the BBC report, though:
> 
> I wasn't aware of that one, and am disgusted that it got passed without some kind of public discussion. Asylum seems to be one of those issues where it's just assumed by politicians that 'public opinion' equals the hate-filled rants of Daily Mail leaders. My suspicion is that most peoples' attitudes to asylum issues are a lot more moderate than that.



Our fave AM on this
http://leannewoodamac.blogspot.com/2008/05/asylum-seekers-ruling-is-necessary.html
She is also on ITV Wales' politics programme tomorrow arguing the pro-asylum seekers case against crackpot right-wing Tory MP David Davies (the Monmouth one not the old guy).
Tune in and enjoy! Don't know what time it's on though.


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## niclas (May 22, 2008)

Belushi said:


> Third rate caricature of nationalism.
> 
> And you dont need to lecture me about the class struggle in the valleys I was there in 1984, unlike yourself.



Sums it all up. The history of the Welsh working class doesn't fit into Udo's little Brit compartments - a lot of it is about national oppression linked to class oppression (M'luds I cite the Mold riots of 1869 - not medieval history but class politics married to the national oppression that existed at the time... you can still see the bullet holes in the town hall building).

If anyone thinks that Welsh politics is similar to English politics, ask yourself why Crewe is about to vote Tory. Would a similar working-class town in Wales vote the same way?


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## Dhimmi (May 22, 2008)

Dic Penderyn said:


> hmmm, not only of a picture of a horrible woman, but no very good art either (imho, I realise these things are subjective). bbc report



Blimey those are pisspoor, looks like Tony Hancock sans trilby and Babs Cartland sans poodle. Good to see they've left a space for two more. Let me guess those are for King Edward and some other bastard.


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## lewislewis (May 22, 2008)

niclas said:


> If anyone thinks that Welsh politics is similar to English politics, ask yourself why Crewe is about to vote Tory. Would a similar working-class town in Wales vote the same way?



Never.
More often than not, opposition to Labour in Wales since 1997 (as expressed electorally) has come from the left not from the right. Sometimes this opposition from the left has been expressed in a misguided way such as backing the Lib Dems, but Plaid Cymru are always the main benefactor of Labour's failures, most recently a few weeks ago on Caerphilly council with the victory there, or even in the urban parts of Carmarthenshire (esp. Llanelli) where Labour was decimated by Plaid. 

Welsh politics since 1997 does tell us that it is very possible to stand on a clear left-wing platform and get elected. We have to keep this up and take it further, and ensure that grievances about the Labour party and about New Labour are not misdirected into support for the BNP, or even for the Conservative Party in any amount that would challenge Plaid.

Just being on left platforms and talking the talk isn't good enough. We need policy actions that can be considered progressive to come out of this realignment of Welsh politics. I think we have already achieved several of these (mainly on PFI & public services), are on the brink of a number of others (council housing, renewable energy) and could get even more if we had full powers at the Assembly.

The question of nationalism and the compromises needed to get in power and maintain power are to me far less important than the fact that we are now at a stage where we are actually promoting a programme of government that is in theory radically different to that being propagated by the mainstream parties in the Westminster parliament.
To turn this more openly into practice we need to make sure that we have more public support.

The BNP have also been kept out of Wales even as in England they are gaining seriously worrying footholds. The non-Plaid left was also crucial to this as was the work of Searchlight Cymru. Wales is also different to England in that even the Tories here are involved in anti-fascism (not the militant kind though). The BNP results were awful across all of Wales apart from Swansea where they were worrying. The BNP did worse than the far-left in many parts of Wales. 

So far, so good. 

_At the same time we need the left in England to develop a response to devolution that involves critical support for Plaid and a commitment to a party that accepts electoralism as a means to an end that should be actively and professionally pursued. Time to stop pissing around in the sects and fractions. The alternative to this is people like the BNP getting more power and the centre-right having a clean sweep at every election. I don't want to live next door to a fascist country! _


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## lewislewis (May 22, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> A whole history and culture is being abandoned and reshaped because it doesn’t fit into the nationalist ideology. The history of our class is being supressed because it challenges those who would wish to forge new chains to bind us with, and sew new illusions.


*
"Although those of us who have been brought up in Monmouth and in Glamorgan are not Welsh-speaking, Welsh-writing Welshmen, nevertheless we are all aware of the fact that there exists in Wales, and especially in the rural areas, a culture which is unique in the world. And we are not prepared to see it die."*
Aneurin Bevan, 1953
Nye attended the Ebbw Vale Eisteddfod in 1958 amongst huge interest and called the event "a monument to civilisation".

Surprisingly, I discovered all of this from the blog of the right-wing Labour AM Leighton Andrews, of all people. Good shout.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 22, 2008)

niclas said:


> If anyone thinks that Welsh politics is similar to English politics, ask yourself why Crewe is about to vote Tory. Would a similar working-class town in Wales vote the same way?



Evidently, there are differences between Welsh politics and English politics, but this seems the old argument that the Welsh working class is inherrently more left than the English working class.
I hear rumour that the Poll Tax was sank in a riot in Trafalgar Square in London, that some of the most militant miners in 1984 were in the pits of Yorkshire. Indeed, in the early 70s English workers were extremely militant bringing down the Heath government. In fact, the most radical section of Welsh workers often saw themselves as fighting as part of a common struggle with English and Scottish workers, it was this unity from below that won us the Welfare State and wrang many key concessions from the boss class. Niclas by trying to break-up unity between Welsh and English workers is, in the long term, strengthening the British working class.

What about a similar working class town in the North of England? Do you think that they would be likely to vote Tory?

Even within different areas of Wales we see a variation in militancy.

Why do more people vote left in the South of Wales than the North? 

Why have traditionally Welsh left wing politicians come from the valleys rather than Ynys Mon?

This is not a very convincing argument.


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## rioted (May 22, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> ...nationalism betrays the class once more.


'cos the Labour Party never did that, did it?


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## Udo Erasmus (May 22, 2008)

rioted said:


> 'cos the Labour Party never did that, did it?



A valid point.


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## niclas (May 22, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Niclas by trying to break-up unity between Welsh and English workers is, in the long term, strengthening the British working class.



I think you're trying to say "strengthening the British ruling class"? So that's what I've been doing all these years...



Udo Erasmus said:


> What about a similar working class town in the North of England? Do you think that they would be likely to vote Tory?



The metropolitan hacks describe Crewe as being an archetypal northern industrial town - and it is. 



Udo Erasmus said:


> Even within different areas of Wales we see a variation in militancy.
> 
> Why do more people vote left in the South of Wales than the North?
> 
> Why have traditionally Welsh left wing politicians come from the valleys rather than Ynys Mon?



RJ Derfel was a Welsh socialist pioneer from Caernarfon, Robert Owen from Newtown. The Valleys is where the bulk of Welsh workers live and where the class struggle has been at its sharpest (although slate workers in Bethesda would argue with that). Simplistic north-south stereotypes that seek to divide us don't really stand up to examination.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 22, 2008)

> Simplistic north-south stereotypes that seek to divide us don't really stand up to examination



And simplistic English-Welsh stereotypes that seek to divide us don't really stand up to examination.

I'm not sure what point you are making? Tom Paine, who participated in revolutions in America and France came from East Anglia, ditto William Godwin, godfather of British anarchism. But currently East Anglia is a bastion of Toryism. Ever read the Making of the English Working Class? 

But in more recent history, the entire working class fought back against Thatcher, but some of the most notable events were in England - the 1981 uprisings in the inner cities, the battle of the beanfield, the polltax riots.

Welsh workers have a history they can be well proud of, bur diminishing other sets of workers, or pretending that the Welsh are inherently more radical than the English is bogus


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## Udo Erasmus (May 22, 2008)

One of the areas with the most radical history in Britain is the East End of London, immortalised in Jack London's, "The People of the Abyss", where the fabian Beatrice Webb went down and out and wrote a diary, birthplace of the New Unionism, a place where Rudolf Rocker once roamed, in the 1920s, George Lansbury and the Rebel Councillors of Poplar perhaps represented the finest traditions of the Labour Party actually, for once, fighting for working class people, once represented by Phil Piratin, a Communist MP, whose book "Our flag stays Red" recalls the collosal battles to drive the fascists out of the East End, and latterly still elected left wing politicians.

The early history of the East End is recounted in two remarkable history's by anarchist historian, Bill Fishman - East End Jewish Radicals, and East End 1888

But despite the traditions of radicalism this is also a place where the fascists have had a base in the 30s, in the 70s and most memorably when Derek Beacon, became the BNPs first elected councillor on the isle of dogs.


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## christonabike (May 22, 2008)

Gwynfor Evans will be turning in his fucking grave


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## lewislewis (May 22, 2008)

I read that it was ironic that the woman that destroyed the tin industry, is represented in tinplate.

I also overheard a man on the bus today saying he was considering getting his hands on some eggs in reference to this artwork ; )


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## Karac (May 22, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> The kind of pitched battles that have been fought in Wales: The Newport and Merthyr Risings, The Rebecca Riots, The General Strike of 26, Little Moscows in the Valleys, The Fed & the Great Miners Strike of 1984 don’t fit into the airbrushed image of “The New Wales” - many know more about Hywel Dda than Dic Penderyn or Lewislewis.


My guess is not many people know about Hywel Dda or the Merthyr risings-both sort of hidden histories


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## teqniq (May 23, 2008)

So it's tin is it? Lift it and sell it for scrap!


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## Udo Erasmus (May 23, 2008)

llantwit said:


> It is indeed a progressive ruling. I was drawn to this line in the BBC report, though:
> 
> I wasn't aware of that one, and am disgusted that it got passed without some kind of public discussion. Asylum seems to be one of those issues where it's just assumed by politicians that 'public opinion' equals the hate-filled rants of Daily Mail leaders. My suspicion is that most peoples' attitudes to asylum issues are a lot more moderate than that.



This might be pertinent to this discussion:

*Medecins du Monde publishes findings on so called 'Health Tourism'*


Key findings:

    * We saw no evidence of the so-called 'health tourist' who comes to the UK seeking expensive treatment. Our patients had been in the UK for an average of 3 years before accessing care.


And our findings confirm what a number of other independent studies have shown, that migrants and British citizens have similar health profiles and that migrants are no more likely to have expensive, complicated medical needs than anyone else.

    * We saw a worrying number of pregnant women (118) who had difficulty accessing proper care.  Although they were entitled, nearly 70% of the women had no access to care before coming to the clinic. This lack of access puts both mother and child in jeopardy and must be addressed as a matter of urgency.

    * Rather than saving money, the proposed government changes on health regulations would only result in greater costs because:

          o Lack of GP access means no chance of preventing diseases
          o Lack of GP access means no chance of early and affordable treatment of diseases - including those which are contagious
          o Lack of GP access is likely to lead to increased pressure on already burdened A&E departments.


Download the full report
http://www.medecinsdumonde.org.uk/doclib/104524-report2007light.pdf


Enquiries/further information
Susan Wright
susan.wright@medecinsdumonde.org.uk
020 7515 7534
http://www.medecinsdumonde.org.uk/


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## llantwit (May 23, 2008)

Karac said:


> My guess is not many people know about Hywel Dda or the Merthyr risings-both sort of hidden histories


I don't see them as that hidden.
I learned about Merthyr, the SW Chartists and Rebecca in school - used to be on the curriculum here.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 23, 2008)

llantwit said:


> I don't see them as that hidden.
> I learned about Merthyr, the SW Chartists and Rebecca in school - used to be on the curriculum here.



Loads of people know about this kind of stuff from the popular novels of Alexander Cordell. I guess the critical point is that sometimes this kind of history can become domesticated or robbed of its edge. The question is how to link these dead historical events with living movements happening today.
Unfortunately, the left once had a strong tradition of comemorating history and keeping it alive, but this seems to be dwindling. As historian, Tristram Hunt puts it here: "For generations, such recognition of the radical past would have been second nature within the progressive left, and a roll-call of historic struggles won and lost provided the inspirational hinterland for generations of activists"

Incidentally, in Niclas's derrogatory comments about English workers and working class struggle in England, we see more evidence of how Nationalism's left wing face is drenched in national chauvinism and mystification. Frankly his comments about Crewe are moronic, this was a seat that was represented by a Labour MP, if it's now gone Tory, rather than analyse this, he just makes racist glib comments about English workers.


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## niclas (May 23, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Incidentally, in Niclas's derrogatory comments about English workers and working class struggle in England, we see more evidence of how Nationalism's left wing face is drenched in national chauvinism and mystification. Frankly his comments about Crewe are moronic, this was a seat that was represented by a Labour MP, if it's now gone Tory, rather than analyse this, he just makes racist glib comments about English workers.



I know Udo's only a cyber-being created to wind up the Welsh left (witness the hilarious counter-demo of the St David's Day parade), but would he please explain what is racist about my earlier comment on Crewe?

(here it is) *"If anyone thinks that Welsh politics is similar to English politics, ask yourself why Crewe is about to vote Tory. Would a similar working-class town in Wales vote the same way?"*

racist, moronic, chauvinist and mystifying?


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## llantwit (May 23, 2008)

RACIST!!!
You get used to shouting that if you're a member of Respect... it's like a reflex reaction.


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## Karac (May 23, 2008)

llantwit said:


> I don't see them as that hidden.
> I learned about Merthyr, the SW Chartists and Rebecca in school - used to be on the curriculum here.



Really?-all i can remember from History lessons was WW2-How Britain wun the War  and Russia=bad people


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## Udo Erasmus (May 23, 2008)

Niclas, you're an ethnic absolutist.


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## niclas (May 23, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Niclas, you're an ethnic absolutist.



Damn, my secret's out...


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## Udo Erasmus (May 24, 2008)

Let's get down to brass tacks.

Many will remember that Niclas' former party, Forward Wales, was rapped by the socialist left in Wales for its nationalist slogan, "PUTTING WALES FIRST". As is obvious, this can only mean we need to put Wales (rich and poor) ahead of other countries because we are Welsh. 

Duly shamed, Niclas and co-thinkers, comes up with a new slogan for "Welsh Socialists" (ie Left Nationalists), "PUTTING WELSH WORKERS FIRST"

But here he ties himself up in even more knots. Does the sentiment of this phrase sound familiar? Isn't it a bit like Gordon Brown's appeal to the working class on a national chauvinist basis rather than class consciusness, "British Jobs for British Workers"? 

Hasn't the socialist left always resisted attempts to give industrial struggles a nationalist twist. 

For instance, the GMB trade union slogan when Burberry was being closed of "KEEP BURBERRY BRITISH". Burberry got shut down because the labour and trade union bureaucrats isolated  workers through a nationalistic campaign to “Keep Burberry British” and futile appeals to businessmen, media celebrities, churches and royalty to put pressure on Burberry’s CEO Angela Ahrendts to change her mind. 

Just to further expound how ridiculous this slogan was:

Imagine if Burberry had decided to keep its base in Treorchy open, and then to cut its workforce in  by half, impose worse working conditions etc. It could claim to have met the GMBs demand to "KEEP BURBERRY BRITISH". The issue is not one of nationality, but class. The socialist and union movement is a global, internationalist movement, a working-class movement of the poor. It has a duty to mobilise its members and supporters on the basis of class interests and therefore to always, always challenge nationalist feeling not to encourage it. The idea of the Nation is a key armament in Ruling Class ideology. Workers need to develop class consciousness. Traditionally reformism has fudged the question by chanelling working class consciousness into change through parliament and the institutions of the nation state.

One can well imagine Plaid Cymru supporters complaining about the slogan, "KEEP BURBERRY BRITISH" - Not on the basis of the class analysis above, but rather on the basis, we're not British, we're Welsh.

As stated before: We don't oppose British Nationalism with Welsh Nationalism, we oppose Nationalism with Working Class Internationalism.

Moving onto Crewe. Niclas immediately seeks to explain the transfer of traditional Labour votes to the Tories in terms of the supposed radical difference between Welsh and English workers. Actually we see exactly the same process going on in Wales of the implosion of Labour. For example, where I live traditional Labour voters have switched to LibDem, in other areas it might be Plaid, in some areas it may even be Tory. But it's the same process going on. Of course, there are differences - Wales has a 4 party system, and a different context with the Assembly & issues such as the Welsh language. But Niclas's attempts to divide the working class are a road to nowhere.


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## llantwit (May 24, 2008)

Karac said:


> Really?-all i can remember from History lessons was WW2-How Britain wun the War  and Russia=bad people


We did that too.


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## LilMissHissyFit (May 24, 2008)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> i give it a month before it's totalled by someone...
> 
> it's a bit like going the the knesset in isreal and errecting a picture of hitler and say well if it wasn't for him we'd not have a home land now...
> 
> ...



Im thinking someone should don a balaclava and use a super soaker to drench it in acid or something which will do it some damage.
Its the ultimate insult having that evil bitches face on the sennedd


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## editor (May 24, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> As stated before: We don't oppose British Nationalism with Welsh Nationalism, we oppose Nationalism with Working Class Internationalism.


And there's where you lose most Welsh people who couldn't give a flying fuck about your pedantic lefty political point scoring.


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## 1927 (May 24, 2008)

editor said:


> And there's where you lose most Welsh people who couldn't give a flying fuck about your pedantic lefty political point scoring.



Here here!


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## niclas (May 24, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Let's get down to brass tacks.



Do you still claim I'm a racist?


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## lewislewis (May 24, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Moving onto Crewe. Niclas immediately seeks to explain the transfer of traditional Labour votes to the Tories in terms of the supposed radical difference between Welsh and English workers. Actually we see exactly the same process going on in Wales of the implosion of Labour. For example, where I live traditional Labour voters have switched to LibDem, in other areas it might be Plaid, in some areas it may even be Tory. But it's the same process going on. Of course, there are differences - Wales has a 4 party system, and a different context with the Assembly & issues such as the Welsh language. But Niclas's attempts to divide the working class are a road to nowhere.



There isn't so much a 'radical difference between Welsh and English workers' but a substantial and measurable difference in voting patterns, political attitudes and the organisation & presence of political parties. When you combine these elements, throw in devolution, Welsh national identity and the language in some areas, you end up with a different political context than the one in England.
That is why we have a distinctive movement in Wales, to address the distinctive political situation in Wales.

What part of that don't you understand?


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## LilMissHissyFit (May 25, 2008)

editor said:


> And there's where you lose most Welsh people who couldn't give a flying fuck about your pedantic lefty political point scoring.



Innit... now, wheres that supersoaker?


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## penderyn2000 (May 28, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> There isn't so much a 'radical difference between Welsh and English workers' but a substantial and measurable difference in voting patterns, political attitudes and the organisation & presence of political parties.



But there are substantial differences between the political outlooks of different parts of Wales; the same applies to England.  The nature of employment is far more crucial to the development of consciousness than national origins.  Anyone who has lived and worked in different mining communities, as I have, will be aware of that.  Yes, there are some cultural differences between Welsh valleys towns and the mining communities of South Yorkshire, but they are far outweighed by the similarities.  

The fact that Udo misses is that historically there was a repression of Wales as a nation every bit as brutal as that visited on the Palestinians by Israel.  Socialists must be sensitive to this and not draw an equivalence between Wales as a nation and the nation which historically invaded and subsumed this country. However, it was a major step forward for Welsh miners when they broke from local organisation to become part of an all-UK union.  They recognised their interests lay with those of other workers, not the bosses who shared the same nationality.  

This thread's about Thatcher.  Welsh miners fought alongside English and Scottish miners in the struggle against her - who could say that was not a good thing?  It is the legacy of defeat of that struggle which has weakened class consciousness amongst workers and driven some, but still a minority, to seek solutions in separatism.

Anyone interested in discussing issues crucial to socialists in South Wales is invited to the first meeting of the Cardiff Radical Socialist Forum on Thurs June 5, 7.30pm, Model Inn.


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## GarfieldLeChat (May 28, 2008)

editor said:


> And there's where you lose most Welsh people who couldn't give a flying fuck about your pedantic lefty political point scoring.



not sure tbh you need to differentiate between the Welsh and the rest of the world. no one gives a flying fuck about pedantic lefty point scoring.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 28, 2008)

I hardly think that it was pedantic, to say that if people are outraged by a mere image of Thatcher _at_ the Senedd, they should be more outraged that the nationalists came within a whisker of forming a bloc that would have seen Tory ministers in Wales _inside_ the Senedd! More pertinently the Nationalists in Scotland and Wales have been courting Cameron and the Tories offering to do a deal to prop up the Tories in the event of a hung parliament after the next general election.

I'm not sure why Penderyn claims I deny that Wales was oppressed historically? The point is that for Welsh independence to be worthwhile now it would have to offer Welsh workers rather more than the 1945 Labour government and British Working class movement has achived. Instead what Nationalism offers is some Old Labour rhetoric and minor reforms tacked onto a general acceptance of the neoliberal consensus.

Penderyn mentions the miners. The period when miners began to unite was around the Great Unrest around 1910/11 and culminated in a radical manifesto of rank and file working class organisation, _The Miners' Next Step_ published a year later. 7 years later the local paper in Merthyr was to declare, "Outside of Russia, Nowhere was the Russian Revolution welcomed with greater joy than in Merthyr". This was followed by the explosion of the Communist Party into the valleys,the bitter struggle of 1926 when Miners were left to fight it out alone after betrayal by the TUC in a nine-month lock out, and forced to return with worst conditions and pay than when they began to strike (it was incidentally this defeat that led Nye Bevan to abandon revolutionary syndicalism and go down the parliamentary road), the huge mobilisations against the means test in 1935 vividly described by Gwyn Alf Williams in _When Was Wales_ and Welsh workers volunteering to go abroad to defend the Spanish republic. Communist writer, Lewis Jones, the Welsh Steinbeck, reportedly collapsed after speaking at meeting after meeting mobilising people to volunteer.

What is striking is at this peak of working class struggle in Wales, national demands were not being raised by Welsh workers. The Nationalist Party in Wales formed a year before the General Strike of 26 was irrelevant to these militant workers, indeed it was totally hostile to these militant workers feeling more afinity with the European far right than working class in Wales.

Penderyn is also wrong to claim that I equate British and Welsh nationalism.

The rise of nationalism in Wales and Scotland is actually a product of the defeat of class struggle, and is  locked into the dynamics of the Labour Party. In both countries, nationalist parties first made their breakthrough from disillusionment with Harold Wilson's Labour party as a protest vote and have only been able to break out of a very narrow base by changing their programme to orientate towards traditional Labour voters. In South Wales, nationalism has grown from the hammering that working class struggle has taken under Thatcher and the accelerated shift to the right of the traditional party of the working class under Blair. Of course, many Plaid voters do not vote for them because of their nationalist rhetoric but because Plaid raise some vaguely old-labour type demands, but given the collapse of Labour, some voters now look to some form of nationalism.

The trouble is that nationalism and the appeal to nation mystify class divisions and blunt the edge off class struggle rather than sharpening the edge. For example, it is clear that many businessmen and corporations in Scotland are now embracing nationalism and the SNP. Welsh nationalism also relies like all nationalisms on a falsification of history and pedalling of myths.

One of the most sickening spectacles I saw last year was during the PCS strike on their May Day rally, a union rep was handing out little Welsh flags on sticks. And one of the union reps had a gigantic Welsh flag. Now I have no idea what a national flag has to do with class struggle? Does the Welsh flag help build class consciosness or is does the ideology of a nation blunt it?

To be frank, I think that Penderyn is being opportunist and trying to cosy up to nationalists!


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## osterberg (May 28, 2008)

penderyn2000 said:


> The fact that Udo misses is that historically there was a repression of Wales as a nation every bit as brutal as that visited on the Palestinians by Israel.




I was with you up to that point. Are you talking about the middle ages ?
Wales was hardly a nation in the modern sense at the time . It was a bunch of small rival kingdoms with a norman bit in the south.That was long before the industrial revolution and the rise of capitalism and I can't see that having much relevance with the miners' struggles you mention.

 Perhaps the suppression of the Welsh language counts as national oppression but it pales a bit compared with the oppression of Palestinians.

 I have no problem with people having a national identity and would be happy with the break-up of the British state but it's class relations that is the main cause of divisions in society rather than nationality.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 28, 2008)

Penderyn is trying to cosy up to the nationalists - but best not to mention that Penderyn's organisation campaigned strongly against devolution. A valid position, to be sure, but given that he reprimanded me for not recognising legitmate national aspirations, a little contradictory.


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## lewislewis (May 28, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> I hardly think that it was pedantic, to say that if people are outraged by a mere image of Thatcher _at_ the Senedd, they should be more outraged that the nationalists came within a whisker of forming a bloc that would have seen Tory ministers in Wales _inside_ the Senedd! More pertinently the Nationalists in Scotland and Wales have been courting Cameron and the Tories offering to do a deal to prop up the Tories in the event of a hung parliament after the next general election.



People are genuinely outraged about the Thatcher image- they are talking about it and are politically interested in it. The interest in this case expressed as anger. I'm very pleased it went up and caused this debate because it exposes how unpopular the Thatcherite consensus is in Wales.

But people weren't outraged by the possibility of Plaid forming a coalition that included the Tories, at the time. Alot of people were supportive in fact. I think their support was in spite of the Tories, because Plaid would be leading the government. That did excite alot of people at the time and I dabbled with the idea- but the Tories hadn't changed enough. They can't even commit all of their party to supporting primary legislative powers for Wales, even when 40% of their voters support this objective. There were also problems with working with the Lib Dems, as they are useless and cannot be trusted with responsibility.

The left opposed working with the Tories, and a socialist administration was formed as the alternative. I think that was the right choice for Plaid and so far it has worked reasonably well.
In the long-term Plaid needs to replace Labour as the mainstream social democratic party in Wales.

On the subject of Cameron, I think it is not so much a courting of the Tories as an attempt to gain more independence for Wales. It is only through further powers that we will be able to build the different kind of society Plaid wants. The nationalism is part of the social agenda and vice versa.


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## penderyn2000 (May 28, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> best not to mention that Penderyn's organisation campaigned strongly against devolution. A valid position, to be sure.



No, please, do mention it.  My partner and I walked into the polling station immediately behind two SWP members.  Our votes cancelled each other out.  So we can at least agree that in that instance the SWP were opportunist, though not half as opportunist as when they abandoned class politics altogether to ditch the Socialist Alliance and launch Respect.  Please do not lecture me on opportunism.   

Our position on devolution has changed according to changing reality: the assembly exists now, so we make demands on it that challenge its fake democracy and the misleadership of the likes of Rhodri Morgan and his Plaid allies.  As regards nationalism, we recognise Wales as a nation and therefore the right of its people to secession if they so choose.  If it became the overwhelming will of the Welsh people we would support it and fight for that secession to become the fight for a socialist society.  Since it is clearly not the overwhelming will of the Welsh people, we do not advocate it.

Workers Power made its name with a booklet called "The Death Agony of the Fourth International" in which we traced the degeneration  of that international as a result of tailing petit bourgeois nationalist movements.  Many years ago we debated what is now Socialist Resistance, part of the Respect project, on that very issue. 

As for the rest of Udo's post, aren't you just repeating what I said?  The thrust of my post was essentially to agree with you against the nationalists, but you seem hell bent on making as many enemies as possible.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

As to devolution, it's a pragmatic question not one of principle. But the point is your formulations are ambiguous. For example, you stated earlier "we shouldn't trample on the legitimate aspirations of a small nation" - you need to clarify what you believe specifically are these legitimate aspirations? Otherwise the statement is mere rhetoric. For Niclas and Lewislewis opposing the Welsh Assembly and a Welsh Parliament would be treading on the legitimate national aspirations of the Welsh nation to self-determination. Whereas, for me, the question of a parliament for Wales with lawmaking powers is not posed in terms of nation, but rather whether it will forward the interests of the left wing movement and be of benefit to Welsh working people.



> As regards nationalism, we recognise Wales as a nation and therefore the right of its people to secession if they so choose. If it became the overwhelming will of the Welsh people we would support it and fight for that secession to become the fight for a socialist society. Since it is clearly not the overwhelming will of the Welsh people, we do not advocate it.



Perfectly valid, but how do you respond to nationalist demands being made now? How do you respond to the growth of nationalism in Wales today? Or do you just ignore it in order to ingratiate to left nationalists?

I'm glad that we and Penderyn seem to be in some agreement, so he will forgive me if we talk about the 5% where we may not see eye to eye. Though he's a bit cheeky as I recall him tailing petit-bourgeois anarchists, fluffy pacifists and vegan fundamentalists sometime back. 



> you seem hell bent on making as many enemies as possible.



Not really, but as Marx did say in 1848, we communists  disdain to conceal our views.


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## osterberg (May 29, 2008)

> .....but you seem hell bent on making as many enemies as possible.



 Not the only one, is he.

 It would have been nice if Respect had adopted the radical Marxist programme PR wanted it to do but then Respect would have ended up with as many members as er..PR.

 As for opportunism , the SWP has always supported the demand for a Welsh assembly as a furthering of democracy,supported Welsh language rights,the right to independence if thats what people want.But we're not nationalists and we've always tried to put the interests of the working class first.
 Can't see what's opportunist about that.

 For what its worth I don't think Penderyn2000 was being opportunist either.
 I hope that next week's "radical socialist" meeting that PR's doing is constructive and not just another excuse for some SWP bashing.
 Good luck with it.

 By the way Udo's not in the SWP.


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## editor (May 29, 2008)

osterberg said:


> Perhaps the suppression of the Welsh language counts as national oppression but it pales a bit compared with the oppression of Palestinians.


Right. So unless it comes up to the Palestinian Suffering Mark, then it doesn't really count?


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## llantwit (May 29, 2008)

editor said:


> Right. So unless it comes up to the Palestinian Suffering Mark, then it doesn't really count?


Where'd you get that idea from?
He was responding to a direct point made by Penderyn, who said:


> The fact that Udo misses is that historically there was a repression of Wales as a nation every bit as brutal as that visited on the Palestinians by Israel.


Which is a bit of a bizarre claim, if you ask me.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

editor said:


> Right. So unless it comes up to the Palestinian Suffering Mark, then it doesn't really count?



Trouble is that because Plaid are a capitalist party they can't even defend the Welsh language adequately, and given that it is corporate globalisation that eradicates local cultures and communities and traditional life, only our anti-capitalist politick can do the trick. For example they reneged on a Welsh language newspaper and attempted/attempting the biggest school closure programme in Wales ripping out the heart of rural communities. What alternative does nationalism offer Welsh workers? Anything radically beyond the British Welfare State won in 1945? I don't think so? So why should we support the Welsh middle class project?

It was a highly symbolic moment and said it all about the nationalists "vision"when the Leader of Plaid spent St David's Day on Wall Street - the street that keeps you and I off easy street.

Do you seriously think that the nationalists in power would pursue anti-neoliberal policies Adam Price MP has made clear that their economic strategy is based on Ireland (whose boom saw a massive increase inequality and child poverty) and courting foreign multinationals to come to Wales? In the early 70s, Labour once made rhetoric about taxing the rich and business until the pips squeak. Plaid's economic thinking is radically different. Britain currently has the lowest corporation tax of any Western economy. This is not enough for Plaid they want to give multinationals bigger tax breaks than even Thatcher or Gordon Brown would support. (of course public services still have to be paid for, so we get higher tax bills & more indirect stealth taxes). We need to curb corporate power not pander to it.

Do you seriously think that the nationalists in power would be anti-imperialist when they have welcomed the UK Military Academy coming to South Wales (How many of Plaid's 200+ Cllrs, 3 MPs or 15 AMs have made any public statements opposing this?)

Do you seriously think that the nationalists in power would be pro-working class when they are just as good at cutting local services and closing schools as the other parties?


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

osterberg said:


> Not the only one, is he.
> It would have been nice if Respect had adopted the radical Marxist programme PR wanted it to do but then Respect would have ended up with as many members as er..PR.



I don't think that this is entirely fair comment to make, as the entire radical left doesn't make the weight at the moment. Personally, yes, the Respect project was flawed, but hopefully the non-Galloway version can get a more right-on attitude and sharper class politics.


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## editor (May 29, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Trouble is that because Plaid are a capitalist party they can't even defend the Welsh language adequately, and given that it is corporate globalisation that eradicates local cultures and communities and traditional life, only our anti-capitalist politick can do the trick.


Where did I mention Plaid Cymru?

They're not the only people with an interest in the Welsh language, you know.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

I would argue that Wales was slightly different from Israel/Palestine, for example, in that the ruling class here was relatively quickly bound together with the English ruling class, with the ruling dynasty of Britain in the 16th Century being of Welsh ancestry, ie. the tudors. Wales was wholly assimilated into the English governmental system under Henry VIII. The Act of Union of 1536 (revised in 1543) established some form of  equality for the Welsh people before the English law set today's borders between England and Wales. Palestinians on the occupied territories do not have full equality before Israeli law. Closer to our time, a Welshman, Lloyd George, whom was close to the nationalist movement, waged imperialist wars and sent working class youth to be butchered on the Somme (hence many prefer the epiphet, the Butcher Boy to the Welsh Wizard)


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## osterberg (May 29, 2008)

editor said:


> Right. So unless it comes up to the Palestinian Suffering Mark, then it doesn't really count?


 Of course it counts.
 I totally support the right of the Welsh people to speak their own langauge but ,for example , being banned from speaking Welsh at work isn't quite the same as having an Israeli tank demolish your house.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

editor said:


> Where did I mention Plaid Cymru?
> 
> They're not the only people with an interest in the Welsh language, you know.



This is true, at the last Welsh language rally in Cardiff the only parties in evidence were Plaid and Respect. Plaid's recent  antics seem to have pissed off Cymdeithas no end.

A socialist society run for people not profit would in, the long term, be more likely to preserve local cultures and commnities that nationalist neoliberal stuff.


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## editor (May 29, 2008)

osterberg said:


> Of course it counts.
> I totally support the right of the Welsh people to speak their own langauge but ,for example , being banned from speaking Welsh at work isn't quite the same as having an Israeli tank demolish your house.


And you just going to keep on serving up these irrelevant comparisons until you come up against Godwin's Law?


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

editor said:


> And you just going to keep on serving up these irrelevant comparisons until you come up against Godwin's Law?



You don't actually seem to be saying anything.

So, you think that Wales is oppressed, tell us in what way? - what is your solution?

Welsh independence? But the main force advocating that would give Welsh workers less than they won from the reforms implemented by the British State in 1945, and is often anti-working class. I see English workers as my allies in the fight for a fairer society and would rather unite with them than rich Welsh people.


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## osterberg (May 29, 2008)

> And you just going to keep on serving up these irrelevant comparisons until you come up against Godwin's Law?


Eh? What's Godwin's Law?
I didn't make the comparison,it was Penderyn2000.
I was just pointing out that it wasn't a good comparison.
I actually agree with you that attacks on the Welsh language are a bad thing.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

Osterberg - you are a colonizer and opressor - don't deny it!


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

Out of interest, it is interesting that Niclas and Lewislewis somehow _forgot_ (cough, cough) to tell us that part of the agreement between the LibDems and Plaid on Cardiff Council was to enforce a tougher sickness regime on council workers that according to UNISON could lead to genuinely ill workers being sacked.
Thousands of Council workers are likely to be striking shortly to oppose this attack. We'll be on the picket lines with them!


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## editor (May 29, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> So, you think that Wales is oppressed, tell us in what way? - what is your solution?


If you view the Welsh language as an expression of their culture and national identity, then there is no doubt that historically the Welsh have been oppressed, particularly around the period following the 'Blue Books' outrage.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be finding a 'solution' for.


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## penderyn2000 (May 29, 2008)

osterberg said:


> Not the only one, is he.
> 
> It would have been nice if Respect had adopted the radical Marxist programme PR wanted it to do but then Respect would have ended up with as many members as er..PR.



This is one of the issues we'll be discussing at the meeting next week, to which all the socialists on here are invited.  The fact that the anti-war movement was so big, yet socialists recruited poorly from it, was what convinced the SWP leadership to abandon the specifically socialist (though not specifically revolutionary) Socialist Alliance and build Respect.  I'm not going through all the arguments about that again, but the fact is that the recent election results were generally worse for both sides of the former Respect than the SA had previously attained.  

We have to start from analysing the reasons why socialists have been doing badly rather than looking for endless quick fixes.  

If we are revolutionary socialists we also have to be clear about the path to revolution.  The majority of workers will not attain a revolutionary consciousness outside of a revolutionary crisis.   Our task is therefore to orientate towards the vanguard and win this vanguard from its reformist illusions to a clear commitment to a revolutionary programme.  The reason we are critical of the SWP, the SP and others is not because of a mindless desire to bash but because these groups are continually bolstering reformist illusions in their attempts to orientate to the majority.  The SP, eg, are presently committed to building an explicitly reformist workers party,  Labour Party Mk 2, in order to provide a seedbed for recruitment.  

The Bolsheviks had about ten thousand in 1905 and were still a small minority before the crisis erupted in 1917.  Through having a clear revolutionary programme and well-trained and committed cadre, however, they were able to lead the working-class and peasantry to revolution.  

Does Osterberg believe we cannot build a party of ten to twenty thousand revolutionary socialists in the UK?  

I suspect Udo, had he not been compromised by the influence of the largest left group, might be part of such an organisation.

On our tailing of anarchists etc - we attempted to orientate to a large and vibrant movement just as Globalise Resistance did, but in an honest way, and I'm sure Llantwit will attest to the fact that Cardiff Social Forum was the site of many sharp disagreements between ourselves and those of a more libertarian persuasion.  As for tailing pacifists, we never at any time shirked our responsibility to call for the defeat of the US/UK in its imperialist adventures.  That put us in a small minority on the left, which didn't include anyone here to my knowledge.  

The fact is, we need a new revolutionary party.  The larger groups aren't fit for purpose and will split rather than reform.  Small groups do not have the resources to compete effectively.  We need to establish basic principles and begin the process of regroupment as a matter of priority - that's why we want people to participate in the new forum.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

*Why Cardiff Council Workers Are Striking against LibDems/Plaid Council*

At the Branch AGM on 13th March a motion was almost unanimously passed which will instigate the process for a ballot for industrial action if the Council persists with the introduction of the new sickness absence policy from 1st April.

Unison was consulted on the new proposals back in October, when the Scrutiny Committee asked for a review of the sickness absence figures just a year after the introduction of the last policy.

We considered this to be too soon to be changed again

·        the Work Life Balance changes had only just been introduced so any benefits that were anticipated to come from that would not necessarily have begun to materialise. 

·        In other Local Authorities in Wales where similar Work Life Balance initiatives have been tried there has been an improvement in sickness absence levels, less stress and better staff morale.

·        The year old policy also introduced the tightening up of sickness recording, so numbers were always likely to go up initially.

The new policy is, whatever way you look at it, penalising ill health. 

When the Council introduced the last sickness policy they said it was because our long term sickness levels were too high and introduced ways to dismiss the long term sick more easily. 

This time they are saying our short term sickness- what they now call ‘persistent’ sickness – is the target.

At the moment if you go off sick you have to phone in on the first day and the third within the first week. Under the new policy you will have to phone in every day for the first week. This is unnecessary and heavy handed – almost bullying management.

And even worse, they have cut out an entire stage in the procedures so that they can sack us after just 9 incidences of sickness in a 14 month period.

The Branch Committee decided, in November, that we should tell the Council we reject the new policy in no uncertain terms. A comprehensive response was submitted alongside supporting evidence from the Institute of Management. You may have seen this submission quoted in the Echo.

The Branch Committee also decided that this represented a charter to sack our members for genuine illness and that this is unacceptable. Therefore, if the Council refused to listen to our concerns we would bring the matter to a general meeting to discuss instigating the process for a ballot for industrial action. The Executive Business Meeting decided that the policy would be implemented on 1st April. That is why the motion was put to the General Meeting.

The first step in the process was for you to vote for it in a general meeting. Then the Full Time Regional Organiser, Steve, will have to meet with the employer on our behalf to see if there is any way we can secure satisfactory changes to the policy by having further discussions with the employer. Then we will call you to a further general meeting to report back. You will then have to vote on whether you wish to proceed to a ballot.

What forms of industrial action could we take?

·        We could ‘withdraw good will’.

·        We could refuse to co-operate with the new policy.

·        We could take strike action.

We think this policy is draconian and ultimately will not work, it will just victimise the sick. UNISON will not stand by and allow this to be foisted upon our members – watch this space for more info


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

In terms of a discussion on nationalism, interestingly, a recent survey claims that three-quarters of Plaid voters don't support independence and only half even a Welsh parliament: http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...w-making-parliament-for-wales-91466-20983066/

In Scotland, Alex Salmond won't hold an immediate referendum on independence because he knows that he would lose.


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## lewislewis (May 29, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> In Scotland, Alex Salmond won't hold an immediate referendum on independence because he knows that he would lose.



Well duh...

Would you hold one if you thought you'd lose? Now I can see why your bunch haven't quite made it in politics yet


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

Sorry, what I meant is that it suggests that the certainly historic advance of the nationalist parties doesn't neccesarily indicate a major advance in nationalism. And that people are voting for the nationalist parties for other reasons.


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## editor (May 29, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> In terms of a discussion on nationalism, interestingly, a recent survey claims that three-quarters of Plaid voters don't support independence and only half even a Welsh parliament: http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...w-making-parliament-for-wales-91466-20983066/


But of more significance in that article is the news that around 40% of Tory voters now want to see a law-making Welsh Parliament - a colossal turnaround from the party that campaigned against devolution in 1979 and 1997.


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## lewislewis (May 29, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Trouble is that because Plaid are a capitalist party they can't even defend the Welsh language adequately, and given that it is corporate globalisation that eradicates local cultures and communities and traditional life, only our anti-capitalist politick can do the trick. For example they reneged on a Welsh language newspaper and attempted/attempting the biggest school closure programme in Wales ripping out the heart of rural communities. What alternative does nationalism offer Welsh workers? Anything radically beyond the British Welfare State won in 1945? I don't think so? So why should we support the Welsh middle class project?
> 
> It was a highly symbolic moment and said it all about the nationalists "vision"when the Leader of Plaid spent St David's Day on Wall Street - the street that keeps you and I off easy street.
> 
> ...



Your analysis is incorrect.

The Plaid Minister will shortly be announcing a new daily Welsh language news service in print.
The reason it didn't happen first time around is because the bidder thought it wasn't enough money. Plaid didn't renege on anything it was simply a matter of waiting until someone else stepped forward to deliver the daily service.

Although I don't support Ireland's centre-right economic boom as the way forward for Wales, it actually saw a reduction of inequality in Ireland AND a reduction of child poverty. I proved both of these things to Udo in a private discussion and he seemed to acknowledge them.
I don't want a Celtic Tiger economy in Wales I want something more modest and more controlled, but Ireland is a useful example of an independent small country similar to us and how independence won't mean economic decline.

Finally, you said:
"Britain currently has the lowest corporation tax of any Western economy."
Does Ireland not count as a Western economy? Does Germany not count? Both of these have lower corporation tax rates than the UK and are both more equal societies than the UK.

This is just a factual dispute though- I want to see  a move towards a Scandinavian-style social democracy in Wales based on high taxation of the rich. 
Adam Price's idea of cutting corporation tax in targeted areas of Wales also doesn't seem legal (there was something about it reported before along these lines) so I think eventually we will have to have a rethink. 

I think Salmond has a progressive idea in Scotland as his targets for economic growth also state that inequality must be reduced, so if Scotland doesn't become a more equal society as the economy grows then the SNP won't have achieved their targets.


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## ddraig (May 29, 2008)

Udo! ffs

please answer or i will have to try other avenues
1. why are you posting about the possible unison strike at Cardiff Council??
2. where did you get this info and is it ok for you to be posting it as the ballot has not gone out yet?
3. what good is posting it here going to achieve?

how many people directly involved do you think post or are even likely to read this forum???

serious questions


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## ddraig (May 29, 2008)

*Point Of Order Udo*

that meeting and decision were both well before the May election and knowing who would be in control of the council.

THE MEETING WAS IN MARCH 

so it is not 'aginst the plaid/lib dem council' but the council as an employer


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

ddraig said:


> Udo! ffs
> 
> please answer or i will have to try other avenues
> 
> ...



1. Basic working class solidarity. Any working class people trying to fight back against the bosses merit support. This strike is taking place against the backdrop of wider unrest. Currently a huge proportion of people in Wales work in the public sector. The British ruling class are trying to impose a pay rise below inflation (ie a pay cut) across the public sector. This comes at the same time as workers are already feeling the pinch of rising fuel prices, electricity and water bills, rising council tax, rising food prices. We also know that it's not everyone being told to tighten their belts - for the rich, they've never had it so good! 

As a socialist I support the trade union movement. I believe that if this strike is successful it will build confidence among other workers to organise and improve the lot of our class. People in Britain now work the longest hours for the worst pay in Europe - why? Because the trade union movement was smashed under Thatcher. 

Supporting these seemingly small disputes is part of rebuilding the combativity of working class organisations so that we can begin to improve the life and conditions of people in Wales and start pushing back against the continued dismantling of the Welfare State and various reforms won in 1945 like free health care, free education etc.

Because of their strategic power under capitalism, workplace organisation is very important.

Also, Niclas and Lewislewis have sold the Plaid deal with the LibDems as progressive, it's important to highlight the reality: That Plaid, a self proclaimed left wing party, is about wage a vicious attack on working people. Alongside doing a deal with the LibDems to keep open one school on their patch and close schools in other areas of Cardiff.

2. It's not secret, it's from UNISON's website and represents the perspective agreed democratically by the Union branch.

3. Hopefully, it will help build solidarity and highlight the importance of supporting the trade union movement, this is not just a dispute between one group of workers and the council, but rather about working people as a whole bettering themselves. There must be lots of people on this forum who have, or know people who have been harrassed at work because they are sick, or fear that Employers are getting more and more vicious against people who have to take time due to ill-health. There must be lots of people on this forum who have experienced having their rights denied in the workplace, but not being able to do anything about it.

There is a general trend towards society becoming more authoritarian and particularly attacks on the sick. For example, the government is talking about a draconian Welfare reform. THey want to abolish the traditional "sick note" and replace it with a "well-note" where the Doctor says, this is what you are well enough to do - ie, away to harrass people who are sick and force them back into work or onto the dole heap.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

*Point of Order Rejected*



ddraig said:


> that meeting and decision were both well before the May election and knowing who would be in control of the council.
> 
> THE MEETING WAS IN MARCH



Unfortunately, Ddraig this doesn't hold up. As according to the Echo one of the things agreed in the LibDem/Plaid Coalition was explicitly a new sickness policy for the Council. ie. Plaid have signed up to the LibDem policy. It's not just the Council "as an employer" but Council policy as dictated by the Political parties who run it. Otherwise why would it have been an item in the deal sealed between LibDems and Plaid?

What about these last ditch talks, well after Plaid/LibDems have taken power: 
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...-heads-for-sick-levels-strike-91466-20945714/



> But Unison, which has 4,000 members at Cardiff council, and the GMB, which has 2,300 members, has made an 11th-hour appeal to the authority’s *new Liberal Democrat and Plaid executive* for talks.



Why so keen to defend Plaid? I hope I have answered your 3 questions to your satisfaction?


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## ddraig (May 29, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Unfortunately, Ddraig this doesn't hold up. As according to the Echo one of the things agreed in the LibDem/Plaid Coalition was explicitly a new sickness policy for the Council. ie. Plaid have signed up to the LibDem policy. It's not just the Council "as an employer" but Council policy as dictated by the Political parties who run it. Otherwise why would it have been an item in the deal sealed between LibDems and Plaid?
> 
> What about these last ditch talks, well after Plaid/LibDems have taken power:
> http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...-heads-for-sick-levels-strike-91466-20945714/
> ...



thanks for your thorough answers to my 3 q's. 
I am not defending Plaid particularly just making the point that it wasn't a vote against plaid or the lib dems as the meeting to opose the disgusting new sickness policy was in march and attempts were made to repeal it after the 1st April when it was brought in.
as i understood it there was always going to be an attempt to get the new administration to withdraw the new policy, whoever it was.
now i don't know that or if plaid backed it or had any say and if they did then they cnuts too!


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## Udo Erasmus (May 29, 2008)

ddraig said:


> just making the point that it wasn't a vote against plaid or the lib dems as the meeting to opose the disgusting new sickness policy was in march and attempts were made to repeal it after the 1st April when it was brought in.



Well it was a vote against LibDems because they were in power in march, and introducing the new policy, and part of the deal cut between LibDems and Plaid was to reduce the sickness rate at the council. To be fair, maybe they meant reducing the sick rate by differernt means, but the fact that Unions have been engaged in last minute talks suggests that it was referring to the current policy, and that both parties are in support of the existing policy.


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## lewislewis (May 29, 2008)

I am sure that it is not the case that Plaid isn't on the same side as the unions. Time will reveal all.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 30, 2008)

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...ncil-walkout-may-cripple-city-91466-20990816/

I fear you may be disappointed, unless they try and play the old politicians game of having two faces. But this is precisely why I argued that if they want to position themselves as a party of the left it would have been better to remain in opposition and build their forces rather than teaming up with the LibDems.


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## lewislewis (May 30, 2008)

Can't be in opposition forever though...if we want to change things it makes sense to try and have 'power' (not much of it yet but we'll see).


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 6, 2008)

*Smash The Wage Freeze*

While the dispute that the Council Workers are balloting for strike action for, is not linked directly with action against the Wage Freeze, it feeds into a general mood of opposition and rising union action.

With the falling rate of profit/credit crisis, the ruling class has been attempting to stabilise their profits by squeezing the working class. You won't hear politicians calling for bosses, millionaires and fat cats to tighten their belts - only working people.

There has been, (or the prospect) of strike action across a huge section of the trade union movement - teachers, postal workers, railway workers, council workers, lecturers, civil servants etc. etc.

Brown is attempting to impose a pay cut/cut in living standards on all public sector workers - but let's be clear, while Brown is using divide and rule - ie. references to public sector workers enjoying privileges that most workers don't enjoy, if this suceeds it will send a clear signal to big business to start cutting wages for workers in the private sector.

Therefore, each individual struggle of a group of workers against a pay freeze, actually is a fight for all working people, because they are part of a fightback against the attempt to impose a cut in living standards and wages on ALL working people.

In our organisation we have been trying in a modest way to support groups of workers on strike - taking collections at our workplaces for striking postal workers, setting up an informal network of rank and file unionists, trying to make people aware that these disputes are in defence all working people, trying to push for co-ordinated strike action - a general strike across the public sector - if different unions strike on the same day it turns an economic dispute into a political event, while also waging a battle to build a grassroots alternative to the trade union bureaucracy and the Labour Party link. Sure it's not perfect, but if we can help build a fighting coalition of the working class on some level, then that will be something.


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## Udo Erasmus (Jun 6, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> Can't be in opposition forever though...if we want to change things it makes sense to try and have 'power' (not much of it yet but we'll see).



Those who try and change the system from within 
Often find the system changes them from within - Udo


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