# Far-right protest: Give over, get your arse to Dover - 30th January 2016



## DrRingDing (Jan 19, 2016)

> On Saturday 30 January neo-Nazis and violent racists from across the UK will head to the coastal town of Dover for an anti-refugee protest. Far-right groups are trying to exploit the “migrant crisis” to whip up racial hatred and bring about ever-harsher controls on those coming to the UK.
> 
> Across Europe the far-right have been organising against refugees and encouraging governments to increase their hostility to migrants. While governments close borders with fences and batons to keep those in need out, fascists fire bomb refugee housing. In the UK fascists have tried to organise their own patrols of trucks entering the country, looking for migrants.
> 
> ...



London Antifascists

We were out-numbered last time and this time the fash have been making a big effort to get more down.

More people are needed. Not a street fighter? Feel you're too old? Doesn't matter, come down and make up the numbers.

What are you going to do instead on the 30th? Going to Tescos? Wanking over some weird Japanese porn?

Give over, get your arse to Dover.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

surely 'come over, get your arse to dover' would be better.  but another title would be even better than that.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> surely 'come over, get your arse to dover' would be better.  but another title would be even better than that.



Semantics. I'm not in Dover and thus cannot beckon someone to "come over" if I'm not there.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Semantics. I'm not in Dover and thus cannot beckon someone to "come over" if I'm not there.


this isn't about _you_ beckoning anyone but people 'coming to' the demonstration. tbh 'get your arse to' is hardly inviting, and is likely to put off more people than it attracts.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> this isn't about _you_ beckoning anyone but people 'coming to' the demonstration. tbh 'get your arse to' is hardly inviting, and is likely to put off more people than it attracts.



"Come on chaps, let's stick to those frightfully awful blackshirts "


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> "Come on chaps, let's stick to those frightfully awful blackshirts "


it needs to appeal to a wider audience than just your friends.

it is important to get people down to this so it is a pity, though not a surprise, to see you make such a pig's ear of this.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> it needs to appeal to a wider audience than just your friends.
> 
> it is important to get people down to this so it is a pity, though not a surprise, to see you make such a pig's ear of this.



Oh fuck off. Are you going to show your face?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Oh fuck off. Are you going to show your face?


'oh fuck off'


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## DrRingDing (Jan 19, 2016)

That'll be a no then. Maybe you should consider that before abusing those that will.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> That'll be a no then. Maybe you should consider that before abusing those that will.


it's none of your fucking business you dull cunt.


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## jimmer (Jan 19, 2016)

Doubt the choice of thread title on here is going to make much difference to the eventual turn out tbh.

Last time far-right scaffolder Roy Price Junior came up with a ditty which went "If you don't go to Dover you're a cunt" and the right did alright for numbers.


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## StoneRoad (Jan 19, 2016)

If we fight amongst ourselves ... then united we stand becomes divided we fall.


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## jimmer (Jan 19, 2016)

The left's already divided:


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2016)

Will be in Dover on 30th anyway, roughly what time is this kicking off then?


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## jimmer (Jan 19, 2016)

Kent Anti-Racist Network have called a protest in the Market Square at 11am, although it's worth bearing in mind that it kicked off an hour before the designated start time last time.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2016)

jimmer said:


> Kent Anti-Racist Network have called a protest in the Market Square at 11am, although it's worth bearing in mind that it kicked off an hour before the designated start time last time.




Ta, will be in town for a birthday, so will be about.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> it's none of your fucking business you dull cunt.



Says Mr Sparkle Pants.

What genius propaganda have you come up with over the years?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Says Mr Sparkle Pants.


i suppose 'fuck off' is the pinnacle of your repartee.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i suppose 'fuck off' is the pinnacle of your repartee.



You really shouldn't expect high brow, moustache twiddling retorts when you're abusive.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> You really shouldn't expect high brow, moustache twiddling retorts when you're abusive.


i don't expect them at all. but you're not in a position to complain about other people being abusive.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't expect them at all. but you're not in a position to complain about other people being abusive.



The difference is that I generally only give abuse when someone else starts it. I rarely take digs at anyone these days, on the boards unless I'm started on.

Which is more appropriate that going around trying to poke holes in everybody for the fuck of it.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> The difference is that I generally only give abuse when someone else starts it. I rarely take digs at anyone these days, on the boards unless I'm started on.
> 
> Which is more appropriate that going around trying to poke holes in everybody for the fuck of it.


i made a couple of well-intended comments, you got arsy and started being abusive: now you'll doubtless say i'm a special case. while i think of it you could mention something about the far-right in the thread title. if you want people to look at it, like.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i made a couple of well-intended comments, you got arsy and started being abusive: now you'll doubtless say i'm a special case. while i think of it you could mention something about the far-right in the thread title. if you want people to look at it, like.



There you go. Far-right in the title.


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## smokedout (Jan 19, 2016)

jimmer said:


> The left's already divided:




Two events being organised on the same day in different parts of the country is hardly a sign of a major split.  At worst a break down in communications, more likely an unavoidable clash due to different commitments.  I can see how that might happen - explaining to a bunch of tenants facing the loss of their homes that a certain date is sacrosant because of a fairly small fascist gathering 60 miles away is a pretty tough sell.


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## jimmer (Jan 19, 2016)

If people are going to lose their homes howling at some empty buildings in central London on a weekend isn't going to do anything to help them keep them.


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## smokedout (Jan 19, 2016)

and howling at some fascists in Kent will?


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## YouSir (Jan 19, 2016)

Do any of the arguing points here matter enough to argue about?


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## smokedout (Jan 19, 2016)

nah not really, thats sort of my point, so theres a housing march that day, perhaps Kent will lose a handful of people to that and the march will lose a handful of folk to Kent.  Not really a big deal in the wider scope of things and no need for snide remarks.


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## Anudder Oik (Jan 23, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> surely 'come over, get your arse to dover' would be better.  but another title would be even better than that.



hangover, keep your arse on the sofa.


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## Nigel (Jan 24, 2016)

Yet another demo on the same day 1
National gathering of Frackers in London !


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## malatesta32 (Jan 25, 2016)

money spent, cant make kent.


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## The Flying Pig (Jan 25, 2016)

All well and good going over to Dover but surely a more valid venue would have been Bury Park recently where support in a high asian population area opposing another Britain First stunt is more valid and shows solidarity with more than just a wasteland car park or dual carriageway.


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## teqniq (Jan 30, 2016)




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## teqniq (Jan 30, 2016)




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## twentythreedom (Jan 30, 2016)

Ah, did do a search but missed this thread 

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Kicking off in Dover today

Live updates as violence erupts at Dover anti-fascist protest


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## teqniq (Jan 30, 2016)




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## twentythreedom (Jan 30, 2016)

They've been lucky with the weather


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2016)

Fash getting a reet bashing today LOL


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2016)




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## twentythreedom (Jan 30, 2016)

Whose blood?


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 82844



Apparently they smashed some vehicles up believing them to be anti fascists, but turned out to be Russian school kids on a trip to the UK


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2016)




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## twentythreedom (Jan 30, 2016)

Best history lesson ever


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2016)

lol


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## twentythreedom (Jan 30, 2016)

Faces that only a mother could love


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2016)

lol


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2016)

lol


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## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> lol


he is red, white and blue


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2016)

Sweet innit? Fash well & truly bashed in Dover!


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## Bakunin (Jan 30, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> lol



Skimming the shallow end of the gene pool, there. When that lot were born the midwives slapped their mothers.


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## framed (Jan 30, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> lol



Zombiefied!


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2016)

Watch on Vimeo


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## framed (Jan 30, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> lol



Mon The Gers! lol


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## DrRingDing (Jan 30, 2016)

twentythreedom said:


> Whose blood?



The Chelsea Headhunters/C18. Cos that's what you do when you've been spanked...wipe you blood on the opposing coach that'll tell us.....I'm sure the filth will be interest in the DNA if they were impartial.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2016)

lotsa shots here. havent had any 1st hand reports. fash outnumbered, plod lost control, several arrests, few injuries incredibly! 

Far right and anti-fascists Clash in Dover | Lee Thomas	+44 (0)77 8414 2973


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## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2016)

bizarre!


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## Spymaster (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Apparently they smashed some vehicles up believing them to be anti fascists, but turned out to be Russian school kids on a trip to the UK


Welcome to England!


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## articul8 (Jan 31, 2016)

Who's the guy in the trilby (or is it a homberg)?


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## Red Sky (Jan 31, 2016)

Funny old day. 200+ antifascists stuck at the services as it was sealed off as a crime scene meaning that numbers on the counter demo were cut by around a third. Anti fascists seized the initiative early on (perhaps spurred on by the words of Diane Abbott?)  and abandoning Weymann Bennett on the platform streamed out of Market Sq and going around police lines converged to block the march in front of Dover Priory station.

Apparently the fash then broke out of their kettle and crossed the grounds of a private school to get to the side of the antifascist blockade. This rapidly turned into hand to hand fighting in a petrol station forecourt as cops locked themselves in their vehicles. Lots of bricks were thrown. Injuries on both sides.

The cops got their act together (kind of) and used their vans to create a corridor for the main fash demo to move onto Folkestone Rd. Antifascists climbed a wall behind their kettle to escape and prevent roaming fascists from getting onto a hill behind them. 

The rest of the day was just aggro. aggro , aggro - Kent cops were not in control in any way, although they had the video cameras out in force so a few nickings are to be expected in the days to come, especially as the local press are describing Dover as  a 'war zone' and the event gained national media attention.


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## cantsin (Jan 31, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Funny old day. 200+ antifascists stuck at the services as it was sealed off as a crime scene meaning that numbers on the counter demo were cut by around a third. Anti fascists seized the initiative early on (perhaps spurred on by the words of Diane Abbott?)  and abandoning Weymann Bennett on the platform streamed out of Market Sq and going around police lines converged to block the march in front of Dover Priory station.
> 
> Apparently the fash then broke out of their kettle and crossed the grounds of a private school to get to the side of the antifascist blockade. This rapidly turned into hand to hand fighting in a petrol station forecourt as cops locked themselves in their vehicles. Lots of bricks were thrown. Injuries on both sides.
> 
> ...



It can be argued all day long about what was achieved / or not, but antis looked like they did alright for themselves all told ?


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## Red Sky (Jan 31, 2016)

cantsin said:


> It can be argued all day long about what was achieved / or not, but antis looked like they did alright for themselves all told ?


Didn't think that was a particularly negative report!


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## cantsin (Jan 31, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Didn't think that was a particularly negative report!


Not at all ,a measured one if anything, but reading nonsense elsewhere , was just interested in overall impression ?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> The Chelsea Headhunters/C18. Cos that's what you do when you've been spanked...wipe you blood on the opposing coach that'll tell us.....I'm sure the filth will be interest in the DNA if they were impartial.


they did take samples


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## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2016)

articul8 said:


> Who's the guy in the trilby (or is it a homberg)?


yeh let's identify anti-fascists on the net  you fucking numpty


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## cantsin (Jan 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh let's identify anti-fascists on the net  you fucking numpty


 To be fair, if you're going to yomp around with  that lot , dressed like something out of Raymond Chandler novel with the air of quiet confidence / bonhomie he seems to be exuding, getting noticed was presumably not a pressing issue . Or he was out to do his shopping and the antis swamped him.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2016)

cantsin said:


> To be fair, if you're going to yomp around with  that lot , dressed like something out of Raymond Chandler novel with the air of quiet confidence / bonhomie he seems to be exuding, getting noticed was presumably not a pressing issue . Or he was out to do his shopping and the antis swamped him.


tbf at leazt the day's best dressed person was on our side


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## Kaka Tim (Jan 31, 2016)

Well done to all who went. Cant see that the master race will be celebrating - poor turnout for them and they were met with fierce opposition. Its the same fucking goons on all these things isn't it? You wonder why they bother.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> Well done to all who went. Cant see that the master race will be celebrating - poor turnout for them and they were met with fierce opposition. Its the same fucking goons on all these things isn't it? You wonder why they bother.


some people like to be battered


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## albionism (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> lol


looks like he's got a tooth embedded in his head.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2016)

albionism said:


> looks like he's got a tooth embedded in his head.


looks like he could have tried out for the role of the joker


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## albionism (Jan 31, 2016)

Someone's either left their tooth in his head, or a maggot 
is trying to escape.


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## albionism (Jan 31, 2016)

Big ups to all who went and dealt with those fuck-muppets.


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## butchersapron (Jan 31, 2016)

cantsin said:


> To be fair, if you're going to yomp around with  that lot , dressed like something out of Raymond Chandler novel with the air of quiet confidence / bonhomie he seems to be exuding, getting noticed was presumably not a pressing issue . Or he was out to do his shopping and the antis swamped him.


He was from this lot - whole gang of them:


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## ddraig (Jan 31, 2016)

vice effort
We Saw Fascists and Anti-Fascists Make Each Other Bleed in Dover | VICE | United Kingdom


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## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2016)

[QUOTE="malatesta32, post: 14348939, member: 51210"[/QUOTE]

trilby, homburgs are like tony hancock, black, upturned brim, dent in crown.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2016)

fash are talking it up as a victory cos there are a coupla photos of 2 young lads with bloody faces and a young lass also. there is a short video of the fash besting a small group of antifascists. there are loads of fash on cops violence pix which are gonna mean doors going in. the MO seems to be that they werent nicking fash as it would have been too volatile so will wait a few days. which has has been happening now and again recently.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 31, 2016)

The odious Janice Atkinson piped up yesterday in regard to Diane Abbott & anti-fascists; "Get back to Hackney Ms Abbott and take your nasty friends with you."


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2016)

articul8 said:


> Who's the guy in the trilby (or is it a homberg)?



It's a fedora, you philistine.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 31, 2016)

2016_01_30_Far_Right_Demo_JGO - Images | London News Pictures

The look of fear in the eyes of the guy with the C18 face mask


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## articul8 (Jan 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh let's identify anti-fascists on the net  you fucking numpty


To be fair he's not exactly inconspicuous!


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## Red Sky (Jan 31, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> Well done to all who went. Cant see that the master race will be celebrating - poor turnout for them and they were met with fierce opposition. Its the same fucking goons on all these things isn't it? You wonder why they bother.



It wasn't a poor turnout for them. Given that the whole event was effectively a neo-Nazi effort (Celtic crosses, White pride flags, sieg heils,  the whole bit) they managed a public event that got over 200 out. They were met with opposition but it wasn't conclusive.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> It wasn't a poor turnout for them. Given that the whole event was effectively a neo-Nazi effort (Celtic crosses, White pride flags, sieg heils,  the whole bit) they managed a public event that got over 200 out. They were met with opposition but it wasn't conclusive.



I'm sure Weyman's Warriors have already reported it as a conclusive victory, though.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 31, 2016)

ddraig said:


> vice effort
> We Saw Fascists and Anti-Fascists Make Each Other Bleed in Dover | VICE | United Kingdom



The main image on there, the fascist on the left with the Odal face mask - any particular far right group using that atm?


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## Red Sky (Jan 31, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm sure Weyman's Warriors have already reported it as a conclusive victory, though.



Weymann was there but as a mark of the decline of the UAF they were very much second (or even third) fiddle to the KARN and the AFN.

Of course the Socialist Worker write up completely neglects to mention any role played by the AFN Anti-fascists stand up to Nazi National Front in Dover


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## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2016)

this is the new anarchist antifa leader! 
'I say you chappies, where's the black bloc?'


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## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2016)

Vice is full of 'war zone ... utter carnage ... relentless street fight...' crivvens! hyperbole? surely not?
But in other news, a confession by that nob who was attacking the BUF armband wearer not realising they're on the same side and if things aint better next time, he's gonna delete folk from facebook.


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 1, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> 2016_01_30_Far_Right_Demo_JGO - Images | London News Pictures
> 
> The look of fear in the eyes of the guy with the C18 face mask


Is that Diddy?


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## albionism (Feb 1, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> 2016_01_30_Far_Right_Demo_JGO - Images | London News Pictures
> 
> The look of fear in the eyes of the guy with the C18 face mask


that's diddy fiddler!


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## albionism (Feb 1, 2016)

Eat Shit! He looks like he's having one!


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 1, 2016)

albionism said:


> View attachment 82907



OH NO, GROMIT! 

WE'VE FORGOTTEN THE CHEESE!


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## DotCommunist (Feb 1, 2016)

fromage friekorp


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 1, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> fromage friekorp


If it's worth saying once...


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## DotCommunist (Feb 1, 2016)

godammit

anyways good show on all who made it down.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 1, 2016)

bit of Argie Bhaji


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## malatesta32 (Feb 1, 2016)

good overview and well written without hyperbole. (edit: mostly). 
Post-Dover: 5 Reflections on Antifascism Today


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 1, 2016)

Undercover plod? or fash fighting alongside plod with that home-made weapon?

Animated GIF  - Find & Share on GIPHY


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## Fingers (Feb 1, 2016)

malatesta32 said:


> fash are talking it up as a victory cos there are a coupla photos of 2 young lads with bloody faces and a young lass also. there is a short video of the fash besting a small group of antifascists. there are loads of fash on cops violence pix which are gonna mean doors going in. the MO seems to be that they werent nicking fash as it would have been too volatile so will wait a few days. which has has been happening now and again recently.



I would say Andy Royston is top of the list for doors going in.


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## friedaweed (Feb 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> tbf at leazt the day's best dressed person was on our side


You'll be gutted when you find out he works in one of the local hotels


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 1, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Undercover plod? or fash fighting alongside plod with that home-made weapon?
> 
> Animated GIF  - Find & Share on GIPHY


I saw that; I wasn't sure what point was being made. Doesn't look like a police baton to me.


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 1, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I saw that; I wasn't sure what point was being made. Doesn't look like a police baton to me.



Looks like a home-made cosh. Going off the fash attack from the right as well, plod were alongside fash fighting anti-fascists.


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## butchersapron (Feb 1, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I saw that; I wasn't sure what point was being made. Doesn't look like a police baton to me.


More his actions, the polices actions (or lack of) the face covered etc the cosh is neither here nor there really. Would need to see before after etc


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## grogwilton (Feb 1, 2016)

Hmm, think the same copper is seen attacking fash in this vid: 

Not saying it doesn't happen but the policing was such a shambles they were just attacking who was in front of them. The more worrying bit later in the day was when around 50 fash, possibly pie and mash squad were allowed out of the town centre escorted by just 2 cops whilst the EDL 'peaceful' protest was kettled with huge numbers, and for some reason unknown to the confused locals all charged into the Dover Experience building.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 1, 2016)

Kent Krap Koppers had weeks to prepare for this and fucked it right up. worse than sussex plod. not good PR really is it?


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## Red Sky (Feb 1, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Looks like a home-made cosh. Going off the fash attack from the right as well, plod were alongside fash fighting anti-fascists.



Nah..they were just a complete shambles. If you watch the first minute of the RT livestream (which I can't link to for some reason) one copper can clearly be heard saying "What the fuck is going on?", which pretty much sums the day up.


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## Fingers (Feb 1, 2016)

The policing was a monumental fuck up of the highest order. I had guessed it would be because last time was pretty much a fuck up so I did not go for precisely that reason.


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## Red Sky (Feb 1, 2016)

Fingers said:


> The policing was a monumental fuck up of the highest order. I had guessed it would be because last time was pretty much a fuck up so I did not go for precisely that reason.



You have absolutely no sense of fun.


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## Fingers (Feb 1, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> You have absolutely no sense of fun.



I know, I know


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## DrRingDing (Feb 1, 2016)

I hear Chelsea are getting grief for being turned over by some vegans and feminists


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## Fingers (Feb 1, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I hear Chelsea are getting grief for being turned over by some vegans and feminists



Like


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## The Flying Pig (Feb 1, 2016)

There is some right fantasy stuff on here. But I suppose as long as the scribes believe it.....


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## The Flying Pig (Feb 1, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I hear Chelsea are getting grief for being turned over by some vegans and feminists


Humour I suppose sometimes lightens the mood


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## DrRingDing (Feb 1, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> There is some right fantasy stuff on here. But I suppose as long as the scribes believe it.....



What fantasy stuff is that?


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## DrRingDing (Feb 1, 2016)

Speak up or fuck off.


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## Red Sky (Feb 1, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> There is some right fantasy stuff on here. But I suppose as long as the scribes believe it.....



I guess you know better, y'know from 'watching vids' and that.


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## DrRingDing (Feb 1, 2016)

Looks like The Flying Pig retreated just like Chelsea


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## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> What fantasy stuff is that?


everyone was eating bacon sarnies as the headhunters coach entered the services station carpark


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## Red Sky (Feb 1, 2016)

To be fair to him - it is very difficult to find any objectivity in any of the write ups of these events from either side. Everyone knows the opposition reads their postings so everything is written up in full Pravda mode. The Novara piece Post-Dover: 5 Reflections on Antifascism Today at least admits to the level of violence offered up by the fash.

I find the whole anti-fascist keyboard cheerleading squad intensely irritating tbh.


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## Fingers (Feb 1, 2016)




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## Red Sky (Feb 1, 2016)

Fingers said:


>




"The Reds were nothing like the old AFA and Red Action - I can tell you"  - this nostalgic mutual admiration is just so sweet!


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## Fingers (Feb 1, 2016)

He think Royston in an undercover cop.  He gets through a good two litres of vodka a day ffs


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## DrRingDing (Feb 1, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> I find the whole anti-fascist keyboard cheerleading squad intensely irritating tbh.



Who's this then?


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## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

Here's a  report from the services Post-Dover: 5 Things Antifascists Can Learn from a Motorway Services in Kent


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## jimmer (Feb 2, 2016)

Didn't think the point in the afternoon where the Nazis got run by anti-fascists had been caught on video but turns out it was -



Think the key things I'll take away from Dover are a) there is now a violent neo-Nazi street movement in the UK and b) while not getting decisive victories at the moment, anti-fascists are doing alright.


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## Red Sky (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Who's this then?



The host of bell-ends who never get off the sofa but whose anti-fascism consists of posting contextless pictures of bleeding far-righters on social media.


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## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

jimmer said:


> Didn't think the point in the afternoon where the Nazis got run by anti-fascists had been caught on video but turns out it was -
> 
> 
> 
> Think the key things I'll take away from Dover are a) there is now a violent neo-Nazi street movement in the UK and b) while not getting decisive victories at the moment, anti-fascists are doing alright.




Did better than alright at the services.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Did better than alright at the services.



Is that a confession?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Is that a confession?



Well you seem to be playing priest.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 2, 2016)

New Statesman excels itself in liberal bullshit:
Both sides of the Dover riots: who are the young anti-immigration and anti-fascist protesters?

"anti-immigration" protestors who just happen to do Hitler salutes.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 2, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> New Statesman excels itself in liberal bullshit:
> Both sides of the Dover riots: who are the young anti-immigration and anti-fascist protesters?
> 
> "anti-immigration" protestors who just happen to do Hitler salutes.


That article's already drawn a blitzkrieg of ire. Even Pierce Penniless is entertainingly enraged


----------



## chilango (Feb 2, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> New Statesman excels itself in liberal bullshit:
> Both sides of the Dover riots: who are the young anti-immigration and anti-fascist protesters?
> 
> "anti-immigration" protestors who just happen to do Hitler salutes.



What a curious piece of writing that was. Very odd.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> What a curious piece of writing that was. Very odd.





> India Bourke is the _New Statesman_'s editorial assistant.



Tipped for the top!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 2, 2016)

> My family is really political and left-wing so I go to alot of rallies with my dad. And my mum was a Labour MP.



Just a regular cross-section


----------



## chilango (Feb 2, 2016)

I liked how they all gave their exam grades


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2016)

i liked the 'police interrupt the violence' caption


----------



## gawkrodger (Feb 2, 2016)

reads like it's written by someone on work experience


----------



## jimmer (Feb 2, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> reads like it written by someone on work experience


Only differences between editorial assistant and work experience are a pay check and a contract.


----------



## chilango (Feb 2, 2016)

Read to me like a trial piece by wannabe journalist getting first shot at writing for the student newspaper...


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Speak up or fuck off.


I really can't be bothered you obviously only have eyes for the chosen few, but I must say I am enjoying the humour, which is more than can be said for
two people I know who have come back with painful injuries.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Here's a  report from the services Post-Dover: 5 Things Antifascists Can Learn from a Motorway Services in Kent


What they can learn is endless but you have to want to listen to experience to learn or you are just on mistake repeat mistake.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

jimmer said:


> Didn't think the point in the afternoon where the Nazis got run by anti-fascists had been caught on video but turns out it was -
> 
> 
> 
> Think the key things I'll take away from Dover are a) there is now a violent neo-Nazi street movement in the UK and b) while not getting decisive victories at the moment, anti-fascists are doing alright.



James where have you been for the last 30 years. They never went away!


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Looks like The Flying Pig retreated just like Chelsea


No I have a real job that requires sleep in between my shifts.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 2, 2016)

Dover in the Morning Star for the 2nd day running.


----------



## grogwilton (Feb 2, 2016)

Fingers said:


>




Who is this bloke? I've seen his stuff linked to on here before, but forget his name.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

grogwilton said:


> Who is this bloke? I've seen his stuff linked to on here before, but forget his name.


Why are you giving oxygen to known racist scumbags and then claim not to know who he is. Or like Jimmer are you another who knows little about the history of the racists.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Feb 2, 2016)

This video is pretty good. Are there any vids or stills from the service station trouble at Maidenhead?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> This video is pretty good. Are there any vids or stills from the service station trouble at Maidenhead?



Your like bloody London buses. you all come at once. Yeh please put up more vids and photos esp. of Maidstone where we can identify more anti fascists trying to go about their daily work.


----------



## grogwilton (Feb 2, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Why are you giving oxygen to known racist scumbags and then claim not to know who he is. Or like Jimmer are you another who knows little about the history of the racists.



Er it's the second one. I don't know who he is. Like I said. In the post.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 2, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Your like bloody London buses. you all come at once. Yeh please put up more vids and photos esp. of Maidstone where we can identify more anti fascists trying to go about their daily work.



Anti-Fascist Network posted the fuckin' video ffs! Even photojourno's are like, wtf?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> What they can learn is endless but you have to want to listen to experience to learn or you are just on mistake repeat mistake.



Do you understand how self important that sounds?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Your like bloody London buses. you all come at once. Yeh please put up more vids and photos esp. of Maidstone where we can identify more anti fascists trying to go about their daily work.


yes stick up evidence the police haven't got.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Why are you giving oxygen to known racist scumbags and then claim not to know who he is. Or like Jimmer are you another who knows little about the history of the racists.



"History of the racists" do go on, enthrall us with your insights.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

The Flying Pig stop doing the fashes job.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> The Flying Pig stop doing the fashes job.


yeh coming over here, doing their job


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> The Flying Pig stop doing the fashes job.


Not quite sure what u mean


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> "History of the racists" do go on, enthrall us with your insights.


Derrrrr! The have always been violent little racist thugs! I thought every self respecting anti fascist knew this, unless of course you are straight of the Goldsmiths bus on a jolly up, not realising that some heavy lifting maybe required


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Not quite sure what u mean



Spotting this as an opportunity to be divisive.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Derrrrr! The have always been violent little racist thugs! I thought every self respecting anti fascist knew this, unless of course you are straight of the Goldsmiths bus on a jolly up, not realising that some heavy lifting maybe required



I think you need to read a bit of history first. 

The BNP moved away from punch ups a long time ago....and with that change in tactics so did some anti-fascists. This looks like a serious, new resurgence of not just the 'far right' but neo-nazis well up for extreme violence. After Dover they are going to feel empowered...even though they shouldn't.

The climate has changed and it has to be met with a robust reply.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Derrrrr! The have always been violent little racist thugs! I thought every self respecting anti fascist knew this, unless of course you are straight of the Goldsmiths bus on a jolly up, not realising that some heavy lifting maybe required



So, you don't think successfully repelling the Chelsea Headhunters is much of an achievement?

Do tell us your achievements? They must be impressive (or complete bullshit).


----------



## laptop (Feb 2, 2016)

Teensy observation: the local BBC hack on the ground was better-informed than most, going by the phrasing of this:



> Counter-demonstrators included members of Kent Anti-Racism Network, anti-fascist group Antifa and people with Socialist Worker placards.
> 
> Far-right and anti-racism protesters clash in Dover - BBC News



Also, 17 arrests reported yesterday, but on closer inspection none of them door-knocks. Yet.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Spotting this as an opportunity to be divisive.


Fully understand now


----------



## ddraig (Feb 2, 2016)

priceless


> But she also acknowledged that with hindsight it may have been better to have had the two rallies on separate days.


Dover protest arrests: police to hold review into handling of marches that led to violence and arrests


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> So, you don't think successfully repelling the Chelsea Headhunters is much of an achievement?
> 
> Do tell us your achievements? They must be impressive (or complete bullshit).





DrRingDing said:


> I think you need to read a bit of history first.
> 
> The BNP moved away from punch ups a long time ago....and with that change in tactics so did some anti-fascists. This looks like a serious, new resurgence of not just the 'far right' but neo-nazis well up for extreme violence. After Dover they are going to feel empowered...even though they shouldn't.
> 
> ...


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I think you need to read a bit of history first.
> 
> The BNP moved away from punch ups a long time ago....and with that change in tactics so did some anti-fascists. This looks like a serious, new resurgence of not just the 'far right' but neo-nazis well up for extreme violence. After Dover they are going to feel empowered...even though they shouldn't.
> 
> The climate has changed and it has to be met with a robust reply.



The climate changed in 2009 with the arrival of the EDL.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> The climate changed in 2009 with the arrival of the EDL.



They were the soft face of fascism. This is a turn for the worst.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> So, you don't think successfully repelling the Chelsea Headhunters is much of an achievement?
> 
> Do tell us your achievements? They must be impressive (or complete bullshit).


I don't comment on my activities  - again seems to be a modern day. I will leave it there.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> They were the soft face of fascism. This is a turn for the worst.



Soft face? You are having a laugh I suppose? Politically they may now be more extreme but it's the same people.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> So, you don't think successfully repelling the Chelsea Headhunters is much of an achievement?
> 
> Do tell us your achievements? They must be impressive (or complete bullshit).


If you were there you know what happened.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> If you were there you know what happened.



What have you achieved?...and how do you think we should react to neo-nazis completely fucking off electoral politics for bloody street warfare?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> What have you achieved?...and how do you think we should react to neo-nazis completely fucking off electoral politics for bloody street warfare?


tomorrow


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> tomorrow



Come back when you're sober...or preferably not at all.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 2, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Soft face? You are having a laugh I suppose? Politically they may now be more extreme but it's the same people.



Having a laugh? Not entirely.

You'd get the odd seig heilling numpty on the EDL marches but this lot were full on SS fantasising wankers, tooled up like nothing I've heard of in recent years. Plenty of blades, knuckle dusters, bike chains, coshes etc.


----------



## albionism (Feb 3, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> They were the soft face of fascism. This is a turn for the worst.


They are the same, only now a bit braver/more stupid to openly show their
true Nazi leanings and not hide behind the "we're not racist" bullshit of the
EDL.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Having a laugh? Not entirely.
> 
> You'd get the odd seig heilling numpty on the EDL marches but this lot were full on SS fantasising wankers, tooled up like nothing I've heard of in recent years. Plenty of blades, knuckle dusters, bike chains, coshes etc.


i think you should have paid better attention to who was on edl marches.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2016)

albionism said:


> They are the same, only now a bit braver/more stupid to openly show their
> true Nazi leanings and not hide behind the "we're not racist" bullshit of the
> EDL.


i think we can safely say people who get battered then draw swastikas in their own blood are not the full shilling.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 3, 2016)

albionism said:


> They are the same, only now a bit braver/more stupid to openly show their
> true Nazi leanings and not hide behind the "we're not racist" bullshit of the
> EDL.



When was the last time the Chelsea Headhunters went on a demo together? I don't remember them going on EDL nonsense.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 3, 2016)

....and there were plenty of groups that splintered off of the EDL as they weren't racist enough.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 3, 2016)

Plus the EDL had a larger appeal (see, we're not racist nonsense). This attracted a wider political spectrum than these cunts.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 3, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Plus the EDL had a larger appeal (see, we're not racist nonsense). This attracted a wider political spectrum than these cunts.



This is true  - for a while the EDL were attracting fairly big numbers and getting some favourable media coverage. The nazis were in there - but it went beyond that. Dover was the hardcore far-right jobbycrust without the kling-ons.


----------



## albionism (Feb 3, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Plus the EDL had a larger appeal (see, we're not racist nonsense). This attracted a wider political spectrum than these cunts.


One would have had to have been a racist in the first place to have anything to do with the EDL. 
Either that, or very, very naive/stupid indeed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2016)

albionism said:


> One would have had to have been a racist in the first place to have anything to do with the EDL.
> Either that, or very, very naive/stupid indeed.


yeh but at the start there were so many casual racists and so many naive people that the number of 'proper' nazis was small in comparison. however, as the number of casual racists, naive and stupid people has dwindled the nazis have become a much larger proportion of those active.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 3, 2016)

It's more complicated than that. The Dover crowd was made up of some old neo-nazis, british Movement, a token effort from National Action, but a significant majority were recruited into the South East Alliance (Paul Pitt's crowd) via the EDL, a lot of whose hoodies were on display. The  SEA were the co-organisers with the March for England for ..ermm the March for England, the annual Brighton ding-dong. They are now organising openly with neo-Nazis. 

The journey of the Pie&Mash Squad/Casuals United and the various Infidel groups is interesting. They all started with the EDL, splintered into the various Infidel groups while still following the EDL line i.e that Islam was the problem and they were defending European liberal values against an invasion. We would see Israeli and rainbow flags flown side by side on their demos. They were not always convinced Nazis. Now that crew has swallowed the Fourteen words and waves swastikas.

The failure of the left to successfully confront or disrupt the EDL during their hey-day (although efforts were made especially in towns that are anarcho/lefty strongholds, the job was often left to the UAF) has opened the door to a more virulent strain of far-right politics. That failure I believe was down to the long gap in time (1992-2009) between the need for an active anti-fascist street movement. That meant that many older activists had simply retired. It is also down to, to some extent, the self mythologisation of AFA. Don't get me wrong, i'm not disrespecting the efforts of that generation - but the literature they produced convinced many that the answer to far-right street politics lay only in squaddism. Squaddism was a totally inappropriate response to a far-right movement that organised online and only came together in large numbers for demos. This left anti-fascists floundering for answers for years. Sadly this left the far-right to get more and more confident with their street mobilisations - until we have the situation we see today.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 3, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> It's more complicated than that. The Dover crowd was made up of some old neo-nazis, british Movement, a token effort from National Action, but a significant majority were recruited into the South East Alliance (Paul Pitt's crowd) via the EDL, a lot of whose hoodies were on display. The  SEA were the co-organisers with the March for England for ..ermm the March for England, the annual Brighton ding-dong. They are now organising openly with neo-Nazis.
> 
> The journey of the Pie&Mash Squad/Casuals United and the various Infidel groups is interesting. They all started with the EDL, splintered into the various Infidel groups while still following the EDL line i.e that Islam was the problem and they were defending European liberal values against an invasion. We would see Israeli and rainbow flags flown side by side on their demos. They were not always convinced Nazis. Now that crew has swallowed the Fourteen words and waves swastikas.
> 
> The failure of the left to successfully confront or disrupt the EDL during their hey-day (although efforts were made especially in towns that are anarcho/lefty strongholds, the job was often left to the UAF) has opened the door to a more virulent strain of far-right politics. That failure I believe was down to the long gap in time (1992-2009) between the need for an active anti-fascist street movement. That meant that many older activists had simply retired. It is also down to, to some extent, the self mythologisation of AFA. Don't get me wrong, i'm not disrespecting the efforts of that generation - but the literature they produced convinced many that the answer to far-right street politics lay only in squaddism. Squaddism was a totally inappropriate response to a far-right movement that organised online and only came together in large numbers for demos. This left anti-fascists floundering for answers for years. Sadly this left the far-right to get more and more confident with their street mobilisations - until we have the situation we see today.



That's a lot of pointing about what you think was/is wrong. What do you suggest we do?


----------



## PurpleHaywood (Feb 3, 2016)

/


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2016)

PurpleHaywood said:


> /


\


----------



## jimmer (Feb 3, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> James where have you been for the last 30 years. They never went away!



Thirty years ago there was a violent neo-Nazi street movement, but for most of the last three decades there hasn't been one. For the vast majority of that period the far-right were engaged in an electoral project which is now over, they weren't rioting or attacking anti-fascists. Unless I've missed something.

While the BNP was busy knocking on doors there were several attempts to engage in street activity by other far-right groups, generally by the National Front who continued their Remembrance Sunday marches and held protests across the country. But you can't really call those street-focussed groups a movement, they weren't going anywhere. 

Most of those groups couldn't get more than a dozen on the streets. Group's like Kevin Watmough and Eddie Morrison's White Nationalist Party, then British People's Party. They weren't much of a threat to anybody. Even more recent attempts at explicitly neo-Nazi street activity such as Kieren Trent's English National Resistance flopped and never drew the numbers the far-right are currently mobilising.

There were a few occasions where the far-right got numbers worth paying attention to on the streets, but they weren't rioting, they were trying to appear respectable. Like the BNP protest outside the Commission for Racial Equality on Borough High Street. Even the United British Alliance protests outside Finsbury Park Mosque were fairly tame.

I can't think of a single occasion in the past 15 years where a mob of 50+ neo-Nazis has attacked anti-fascists, until last year. Apart from a few attacks on meetings by EDL groups, I can't think of any other worrying instances of far-right violence directed towards the left in the period from the late 90s through to last year. 

Since then we've had the attack on the Clapton Ultras in Thamesmead by EDL and South East Alliance (SEA) linked hooligans, then the far-right attack on anti-fascists who were occupying their RV point in Dover last September, then the numerous attacks in Dover last weekend where neo-Nazis and EDL types were working together.

There was a brief period last Saturday where these fascists effectively had control of the streets, I can't think of another time where that's happened. 

The far-right is back on the streets and is using political violence against the left, which looks set to increase. Even the Chelsea Headhunters appear to have made a foray into far-right street activity again. That's a bit of a change from the early 00s you will have to admit.

This shift from electoralism to street activity is personified by people like former BNP eastern region organiser Chris Livingstone. He dons a suit, stands in elections, gives a respectable image while the BNP is going strong. Now he's an organiser for Misanthropic Division who were in Dover, involved in the rioting and throwing Nazi salutes.

The left needs to recognise the scale of the threat fast, because things have changed. Pretending things are the same as they always have been is not helpful.



The Flying Pig said:


> Or like Jimmer are you another who knows little about the history of the racists.



I have to admit my knowledge of the League of Empire Loyalists is a little flakey.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> It's more complicated than that. The Dover crowd was made up of some old neo-nazis, british Movement, a token effort from National Action, but a significant majority were recruited into the South East Alliance (Paul Pitt's crowd) via the EDL, a lot of whose hoodies were on display. The  SEA were the co-organisers with the March for England for ..ermm the March for England, the annual Brighton ding-dong. They are now organising openly with neo-Nazis.
> 
> The journey of the Pie&Mash Squad/Casuals United and the various Infidel groups is interesting. They all started with the EDL, splintered into the various Infidel groups while still following the EDL line i.e that Islam was the problem and they were defending European liberal values against an invasion. We would see Israeli and rainbow flags flown side by side on their demos. They were not always convinced Nazis. Now that crew has swallowed the Fourteen words and waves swastikas.
> 
> The failure of the left to successfully confront or disrupt the EDL during their hey-day (although efforts were made especially in towns that are anarcho/lefty strongholds, the job was often left to the UAF) has opened the door to a more virulent strain of far-right politics. That failure I believe was down to the long gap in time (1992-2009) between the need for an active anti-fascist street movement. That meant that many older activists had simply retired. It is also down to, to some extent, the self mythologisation of AFA. Don't get me wrong, i'm not disrespecting the efforts of that generation - but the literature they produced convinced many that the answer to far-right street politics lay only in squaddism. Squaddism was a totally inappropriate response to a far-right movement that organised online and only came together in large numbers for demos. This left anti-fascists floundering for answers for years. Sadly this left the far-right to get more and more confident with their street mobilisations - until we have the situation we see today.



Some fair points, but the ' the situation we see today " still amounts to v small numbers for the fascists on Saturday - the fact that they managed to cause some damage looked like ( via the footage, and that indymedia report that got ' hidden , but was still readable ) it was at least in part due to the usual ( nowadays) mismatch - middle aged lumps,the  football boys, out and nazis, pissed up brawlers  vs well intentioned ( + doing more than this keyboard commentator, obvs)  predominantly middle class antis , as well as the obviously game / determined + brave minority amongst them .


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 4, 2016)

cantsin said:


> Some fair points, but the ' the situation we see today " still amounts to v small numbers for the fascists on Saturday - the fact that they managed to cause some damage looked like ( via the footage, and that indymedia report that got ' hidden , but was still readable ) it was at least in part due to the usual ( nowadays) mismatch - middle aged lumps,the  football boys, out and nazis, pissed up brawlers  vs well intentioned ( + doing more than this keyboard commentator, obvs)  predominantly middle class antis , as well as the obviously game / determined + brave minority amongst them .



Did you really believe that report on Indymedia was posted by anti fash?

Bear in mind the footage you've seen was taken by people that are unlikely to be on the front line so it would not give a fair impression of precedings.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 4, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Did you really believe that report on Indymedia was posted by anti fash?
> 
> Bear in mind the footage you've seen was taken by people that are unlikely to be on the front line so it would not give a fair impression of precedings.



there 's a bit in the indymedia piece that describes what is very clearly visible in a painful chunk of footage ( just tried to find it, cldnt ) , as a whole load of young, v obviously underquipped antis are pinned against a wall, with a few OB protecting them, head bowed and looking away from the fash  as fash spit at them, taunt them , chuck stuff at them from close quarter....they'd surrendered en masse , and were waiting to be lead away  and I've just never seen that before, either  IRL when i used to go, or footage , whatever....they're there, dressing the part, showing willing, but they just shouldn't be putting themselves in that kind of situation imo, they're doing no one any favours - not saying that was representative of the whole day, but i think there's a problem there that's obvious to see


----------



## jimmer (Feb 4, 2016)

They weren't militant anti-fascists, they turned up to join the counter-protest at a point when there were neo-Nazi mobs going around Dover attacking people and the police had the main body of militant anti-fascists surrounded and contained. I'm told they were attacked by people linked to the Pie and Mash Squad, tried getting out of the area and then ran into the main fascist march. It looks like London Anti-fascists have some photographs of the attackers which are being intermittently released.


----------



## jimmer (Feb 4, 2016)

cantsin said:


> the usual ( nowadays) mismatch - middle aged lumps,the  football boys, out and nazis, pissed up brawlers  vs well intentioned ( + doing more than this keyboard commentator, obvs)  predominantly middle class antis , as well as the obviously game / determined + brave minority amongst them .


There's an element of truth to this, but I think it's overstated on here because of a couple of events. The out and out Nazis are pretty soft in general. But yeah it's noticeable that anti-fascists are generally in there 20s and early 30s and the far-right types are predominantly 50+. You can almost count the number of anti-fascists who're over 40 on one hand.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 4, 2016)

jimmer said:


> They weren't militant anti-fascists, they turned up to join the counter-protest at a point when there were neo-Nazi mobs going around Dover attacking people and the police had the main body of militant anti-fascists surrounded and contained. I'm told they were attacked by people linked to the Pie and Mash Squad, tried getting out of the area and then ran into the main fascist march. It looks like London Anti-fascists have some photographs of the attackers which are being intermittently released.



fair enough, explains that


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 4, 2016)

jimmer said:


> There's an element of truth to this, but I think it's overstated on here because of a couple of events. The out and out Nazis are pretty soft in general. But yeah it's noticeable that anti-fascists are generally in there 20s and early 30s and the far-right types are predominantly 50+. You can almost count the number of anti-fascists who're over 40 on one hand.


And therein lies the problem to say "The out and out Nazis are pretty soft in general." is absolute bollox and untrue. Where you get this idea from of have not got a clue. As I mentioned previously you need to know and understand these thugs to be prepared. Sending middle class uni types to confront these nutjobs is irresponsible and physically dangerous. As you well know you have lost the support of many working class types who are prepared to get involved with the heavy lifting. Firstly because of the very divisive safe space and intersectionalist logic and secondly because when you go to a demo you want to know that the people you are standing with are going to stand, not cower or run away. Whether we like it or not many of the uni gang are just not prepared or up to confronting fascist thugs.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 4, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> And therein lies the problem to say "The out and out Nazis are pretty soft in general." is absolute bollox and untrue. Where you get this idea from of have not got a clue. As I mentioned previously you need to know and understand these thugs to be prepared. Sending middle class uni types to confront these nutjobs is irresponsible and physically dangerous. As you well know you have lost the support of many working class types who are prepared to get involved with the heavy lifting. Firstly because of the very divisive safe space and intersectionalist logic and secondly because when you go to a demo you want to know that the people you are standing with are going to stand, not cower or run away. Whether we like it or not many of the uni gang are just not prepared or up to confronting fascist thugs.



I guess it has to be accepted that there's no one 'sending middle class uni types' anywhere, they're turning up to a demo and 'opposing the nazis' with the best of intentions, and good on them - but when they're mixed up with militant antifas/difficult to distinguish from them, bound to be problematic if it gets lively.


----------



## jimmer (Feb 4, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> And therein lies the problem to say "The out and out Nazis are pretty soft in general." is absolute bollox and untrue. Where you get this idea from of have not got a clue. As I mentioned previously you need to know and understand these thugs to be prepared. Sending middle class uni types to confront these nutjobs is irresponsible and physically dangerous. As you well know you have lost the support of many working class types who are prepared to get involved with the heavy lifting. Firstly because of the very divisive safe space and intersectionalist logic and secondly because when you go to a demo you want to know that the people you are standing with are going to stand, not cower or run away. Whether we like it or not many of the uni gang are just not prepared or up to confronting fascist thugs.


It's not bollocks, what makes you think they're hard? Look at the photographs of the neo-Nazis at the White Man March in Liverpool, they're the most ideologically committed neo-Nazis in the country and the majority of them are pretty soft. Out of Misanthropic Division, Right Wing Resistance, National Action and North West Infidels there are probably half a dozen people anti-fascists should be wary of, another half a dozen who could probably hold their own and the rest are dorks and losers. You should be able to work that out from watching their training videos.

If there are people not engaging in anti-fascism because they can't handle the latest wave of identity politics then they're not really anti-fascists are they? While I think there are a few intersectional types involved with the AFN the vast majority of the network seems to be made up of anarchists and socialists whose politics precede the latest trends. I'm also not aware of a single time the AFN has been ran in the past few years. Obviously there are people going on anti-fascist protests who aren't up to taking on the far-right, the trick is not to turn up with them.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 4, 2016)

cantsin said:


> Some fair points, but the ' the situation we see today " still amounts to v small numbers for the fascists on Saturday - the fact that they managed to cause some damage looked like ( via the footage, and that indymedia report that got ' hidden , but was still readable ) it was at least in part due to the usual ( nowadays) mismatch - middle aged lumps,the  football boys, out and nazis, pissed up brawlers  vs well intentioned ( + doing more than this keyboard commentator, obvs)  predominantly middle class antis , as well as the obviously game / determined + brave minority amongst them .



This is the problem of trying analyse anything via the 'footage'.

I was chatting to an old AFA (first incarnation I believe) member a couple of nights ago. In them days you'd have yer street fight, go home, write it up in the next week or so, wait for the print run and then read the opposition's version of events in Spearhead or whatever (while presumably they were crowding round a copy of Fighting Talk). For exceptionally big events there would be mainstream press coverage with half a dozen photos in the paper.  Now the contest for control of the narrative of events is happening _while _things are still happening. To put it another way - I was in Dover on Saturday, but I genuinely haven't got the foggiest idea what actually happened at Maidstone Services.

There is a necessity to show that we didn't run away, that we are capable  of standing up to the fash etc etc, but this football hoolie "We won, you got done"  #muppets stuff isn't perhaps all that useful. Statements are being made and footage being put online that might not seem quite so clever in the cold light of Dover magistrates court in six months time. This is a political contest - not a prizefight.

The best bet to defeat this kind of fascism is by mass direct action. This means a broad spectrum of people being involved - the gender balance alone on Saturday was hugely different. Anti-Fascists were probably 50/50 (or 42/41/7/13 in more 21st century terms)  but the fash had just a handful of women with them. Age-wise was striking as well. If we had run away (which we didn't) there's a few of them that would probably given themselves a heart attack chasing us. In terms of class - part of the problem here is self appointed spokespeople. Instead of the voice of the AFN being represented, what we get in the media is the likes of Dan 'Middle' Glass. He's apparently an 'award winning activist' and will no doubt be knocking out a Comment is Free piece about the terrible trauma he personally suffered on Saturday, 'cos he's mates with the Guardian set. So the public voice of anti-fascism is a middle class one.


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## The Flying Pig (Feb 4, 2016)

If u are really tellin people the fascists are not dangerous that is then why uni bods are turning up and getting turned over


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## Red Sky (Feb 4, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> If u are really tellin people the fascists are not dangerous that is then why uni bods are turning up and getting turned over



Were you actually there?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> If u are really tellin people the fascists are not dangerous that is then why uni bods are turning up and getting turned over



Surprised you haven't come out with your "ninjas" rant yet.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Were you actually there?



And if so, on which of the 3 sides? Fascist, anti-fascist or state?


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## Red Sky (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> And if so, on which of the 3 sides? Fascist, anti-fascist or state?



Fourth side - bemused shopper.


----------



## jimmer (Feb 4, 2016)

The local press are not happy:


> YOU are not welcome in our town. Do not come back.
> 
> 
> This is the message we want the far-right thugs and "anti-fascist" yobs – who disgraced themselves in Dover on Saturday – to hear loud and clear.



Dover protests FULL STORY: The chaos, aftermath and reaction to far-right and anti-fascist clashes


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> This is a political contest - not a prizefight.



Not quite as simple as that. The nucleus of the fash will carry on regardless of the beatings they get. But the shitter the time they have the more the cracks will appear in their (hopefully) short lived 'unity'.  Once egos start getting sore and people start accumulating power/losing power then that will pull them apart. In addition the less committed, who are there for the buzz and the temporary feeling of empowerment, are most susceptible to coming off worse in the fight. 

Keep beating them on the street, the less committed will fuck off and the hardcore will take it out on each other.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 4, 2016)

jimmer said:


> The local press are not happy:
> 
> 
> Dover protests FULL STORY: The chaos, aftermath and reaction to far-right and anti-fascist clashes



The best comment....



> "People were trying to buy scratch cards whilst this was all going on."



Dover protests FULL STORY: The chaos, aftermath and reaction to far-right and anti-fascist clashes


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 4, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> The best comment....
> 
> 
> 
> Dover protests FULL STORY: The chaos, aftermath and reaction to far-right and anti-fascist clashes



The whole thing is Framley Examiner genius 

"There was no message, it was just organised anarchy."


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Surprised you haven't come out with your "ninjas" rant yet.


Thai is coming very soon


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> And if so, on which of the 3 sides? Fascist, anti-fascist or state?


total bollox! those who cast the first stone......


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 4, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Thai is coming very soon



They  say twenty minutes, but in my experience it's always nearly an hour. Spring Rolls are good though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> total bollox! those who cast the first stone......



Cos of course nothing that was said about you on the Clapton Ultras threads you contributed to, was credible, was it?


----------



## xes (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> And if so, on which of the 3 sides? Fascist, anti-fascist or state?


Surely 'State' and 'Fascist' are one and the same?


----------



## cantsin (Feb 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> He was from this lot - whole gang of them:
> View attachment 82867



wasnt sure if you were bantzing here or not, but if not, cldnt find anything about them ?

if you were, now the dust has settled a bit, what do we think *was *going on with this dapper / wildly innapropriately attired fellow ?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> The whole thing is Framley Examiner genius
> 
> "There was no message, it was just organised anarchy."



They probably don't even get why that's hilarious.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

xes said:


> Surely 'State' and 'Fascist' are one and the same?



Not all fascists are state assets, to be fair. Some of them are just cunts.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2016)

cantsin said:


> wasnt sure if you were bantzing here or not, but if not, cldnt find anything about them ?
> 
> if you were, now the dust has settled a bit, what do we think *was *going on with this dapper / wildly innapropriately attired fellow ?



Probably like the slapheaded dapper be-hatted dudes from the sci-fi prog "Fringe" - meta-humans from the future, come back to fuck us over.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Probably like the slapheaded dapper be-hatted dudes from the sci-fi prog "Fringe" - meta-humans from the future, come back to fuck us over.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Probably like the slapheaded dapper be-hatted dudes from the sci-fi prog "Fringe" - meta-humans from the future, come back to fuck us over.



that's what I'm worried about


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> And if so, on which of the 3 sides? Fascist, anti-fascist or state?



Hope not Hate. 

But don't be sad, two out of three ain't bad.


----------



## moonstomp (Feb 4, 2016)

As someone who wasn't there can I ask a question of those that  are more clued up on AFN tactics ?  when you say mass direct action does that mean just physically blocking there route similar to the German Antifa tactics ? and is the physical stuff a defensive reaction as opposed to an offensive tactic ? I don't expect anyone to go into incriminating details but as one of the older guard [ as you might say ] I'm genuinely curious. I do think that if the AFN are going to organise a mass demo they should be able to steward it effectively which means maintaining discipline and also protecting the non fighters from aggression . From experiencing Antifa Demos in Germany there are often smaller  groups of ''squaddists '' roving around on the fringes AFA style as well as the main mass of people on the demo/blockade.
I really hope this isn't taken as a put down as the video footage from Saturday shows there's a new generation of Anti fascists who are prepared to put themselves on the line.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 4, 2016)

moonstomp said:


> As someone who wasn't there can I ask a question of those that  are more clued up on AFN tactics ?  when you say mass direct action does that mean just physically blocking there route similar to the German Antifa tactics ? and is the physical stuff a defensive reaction as opposed to an offensive tactic ? I don't expect anyone to go into incriminating details but as one of the older guard [ as you might say ] I'm genuinely curious. I do think that if the AFN are going to organise a mass demo they should be able to steward it effectively which means maintaining discipline and also protecting the non fighters from aggression . From experiencing Antifa Demos in Germany there are often smaller  groups of ''squaddists '' roving around on the fringes AFA style as well as the main mass of people on the demo/blockade.
> I really hope this isn't taken as a put down as the video footage from Saturday shows there's a new generation of Anti fascists who are prepared to put themselves on the line.



Just like that - only without the discipline 'cos we're not Germans.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Were you actually there?


No


jimmer said:


> It's not bollocks, what makes you think they're hard? Look at the photographs of the neo-Nazis at the White Man March in Liverpool, they're the most ideologically committed neo-Nazis in the country and the majority of them are pretty soft. Out of Misanthropic Division, Right Wing Resistance, National Action and North West Infidels there are probably half a dozen people anti-fascists should be wary of, another half a dozen who could probably hold their own and the rest are dorks and losers. You should be able to work that out from watching their training videos.
> 
> If there are people not engaging in anti-fascism because they can't handle the latest wave of identity politics then they're not really anti-fascists are they? While I think there are a few intersectional types involved with the AFN the vast majority of the network seems to be made up of anarchists and socialists whose politics precede the latest trends. I'm also not aware of a single time the AFN has been ran in the past few years. Obviously there are people going on anti-fascist protests who aren't up to taking on the far-right, the trick is not to turn up with them.



If you really believe what you have written I think you are delusional.
Once again you decide who is and isn't "really anti-fascist".
Look at recent history and you will see it was the combined weirdos of Goldsmiths and their groupies who decided who could be in their gang and who couldn't. 
And as for "the trick" ?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 4, 2016)

Give over piglet.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 4, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Give over piglet.


hohohohoho mr fox


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 4, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> No



Then accept that your analysis isn't worth all that much.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Then accept that your analysis isn't worth all that much.


It is worth  a lot more than you think to a lot more people than you can ever imagine........
And on that note I am going to put my energies into worthwhile anti fascist action that will actually make a difference.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Just like that - only without the discipline 'cos we're not Germans.



I'm sure you'll agree that there's a diverse set of tactics that ought to be employed in addition to the above.

The AFN needs to step up and take responsibility and fill the vacuum the UAF has left, while not compromising it's militancy.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 4, 2016)

In short I'd like to remind people while this is a spike in Hitler fantasisers unity and activity it will not last. Although we must not wait until they fall apart again. We should use this as an opportunity to get more organised and prepared.


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## DrRingDing (Feb 4, 2016)

One more thing. This site has a lot of people from AFA and Red Action. The fash turn out was mostly in their 40s and 50s. Maybe it's time for our old timers to have a second wind?


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 4, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> It is worth  a lot more than you think to a lot more people than you can ever imagine........
> And on that note I am going to put my energies into worthwhile anti fascist action that will actually make a difference.



I look forward to the results.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 4, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> One more thing. This site has a lot of people from AFA and Red Action. The fash turn out was mostly in their 40s and 50s. Maybe it's time for our old timers to have a second wind



"Who do you think you are kidding, National  Action?" etc


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## J Ed (Feb 5, 2016)

Saw a few National Action stickers around in Walsall today, peeled/rubbed em off


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## chilango (Feb 5, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> One more thing. This site has a lot of people from AFA and Red Action. The fash turn out was mostly in their 40s and 50s. Maybe it's time for our old timers to have a second wind?



I think the fact that the middle-aged fash are still doing the same old stuff without seemingly moving on is a graphic illustration of their failures (personal and political), I'd be loathe to mirror that.


----------



## albionism (Feb 5, 2016)

Why so? I'll be anti-fash until i die. It's not youthful folly,
something to grow out of.


----------



## chilango (Feb 5, 2016)

albionism said:


> Why so? I'll be anti-fash until i die. It's not youthful folly,
> something to grow out of.



Quite.

...but hopefully you don't keep repeating the same old stuff over and over again, in public, do you?


----------



## chilango (Feb 5, 2016)

albionism said:


> Why so? I'll be anti-fash until i die. It's not youthful folly,
> something to grow out of.



Sorry, probably deserves a longer answer later but...

...I didn't intend to imply that it's "youthful folly", but rather that experience (and age) should lead people through a process of reflection, evaluation and change regarding strategy and tactics - and indeed "activism" as a role.

Something about doing the same thing and expecting different results.

...and something about how not being the same man I was 20 years ago.

Maybe I'll explain better later.

...but the sight of the same middle-aged men standing around under an NF banner seig heiling in almost sealed knot recreation of what they did when were young in the 80's is not a sight that screams "success" to me.


----------



## jimmer (Feb 5, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> If you really believe what you have written I think you are delusional.
> Once again you decide who is and isn't "really anti-fascist".
> Look at recent history and you will see it was the combined weirdos of Goldsmiths and their groupies who decided who could be in their gang and who couldn't.
> And as for "the trick" ?


Well I was being quite specific with my words. The out and out neo-Nazis are not on the whole not up to much, it's the patriot types who've come through the EDL people need to be worried about. From looking at the footage of the clashes in Dover the people leading the far-right line in the more serious clashes were EDL or patriot types, not the neo-Nazis. People like Andy Royston, I also spotted a load of Millwall EDL in the front lines. Royston weirdly has a mixed race girlfriend and has had run ins with National Action in the past. I would also swear one of the Millwall EDL lot is mixed race. This is presumably going to be one of the lines on which the far-right unity breaks. Anyway, when there was damage being inflicted on anti-fascists by the far-right it was these people leading them, it's only later in the day when the far-right as a whole have got some confidence that you start to see National Action members at the front. That also works as an analogy for the impact the EDL has had on neo-Nazi street activity, opening up a political space and giving them confidence etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2016)

cantsin said:


> wasnt sure if you were bantzing here or not, but if not, cldnt find anything about them ?
> 
> if you were, now the dust has settled a bit, what do we think *was *going on with this dapper / wildly innapropriately attired fellow ?


That was just the banner chilango made for me for a site i used to do.

No idea frankly.


----------



## jimmer (Feb 5, 2016)

That banner reminded me of this - Anarchist demonstration in union Square, New York, 1914 photo gallery


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2016)

albionism said:


> Why so? I'll be anti-fash until i die. It's not youthful folly, something to grow out of.



I still get people online telling me I'll grow out of my politics, assuming that I'm in my 20s or 30s. The shock is amusing when I tell them I'm in my 50s, and that I rate UAF as piss-weak dilettantes, rather than as actual anti-fascists.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 5, 2016)

chilango said:


> I think the fact that the middle-aged fash are still doing the same old stuff without seemingly moving on is a graphic illustration of their failures (personal and political), I'd be loathe to mirror that.



I think it's more the case they've spotted an opportunity both politically and practically to have another go to explore areas that were previously problematic to them.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 5, 2016)

ive written about this before that doing 'political stuff' like EDL meant you could kick off without the hefty sentencing given to footy hooligans. EDL alway had that terrace mentality of having 'taken' a city by marching thru it (with full plod protection), and all the piss-ups, inter-firm brawling and arrests in the early to mid period before it collapsed with 'sir tommy' exeunt! they also sang 'youre not english,' 'no surrender' and 'who are you' and other baboon tunes from the crazy world of soccer teams!


----------



## chilango (Feb 5, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I think it's more the case they've spotted an opportunity both politically and practically to have another go to explore areas that were previously problematic to them.



Could be. I don't follow the individuals in question closely enough to say one way or the other. 

However, the impression created stands (imo of course) and let's not forget that this street stuff is still (thankfully) more about creating impressions, about image and so on than it is about sustained physical control of neighbourhoods. Hence all the flags and costumes (on both sides). Hence the debate above about how victory or defeat can be portrayed via video and photo.

I do think that "veterans" have a role to play, but that it need not mirror the opposition in this case.

I'm also cautious about overplaying these set-piece confrontations.

...but these are observations from a distance (in time and space ). So may be mistaken.


----------



## jimmer (Feb 5, 2016)

I think it comes across as being about impressions, but to think it's just that is naive. Ultimately it's about power. The ability to crush an opposing political movement and control the streets. The far-right are a long way off being able to control the streets on a scale where people would notice, but for a very brief period on Saturday that's effectively what they did. Attacking political opponents, hospitalising members of the media, acting without impunity. That's the first time many of the younger lot will have tasted what that power is like and they'll have a taste for it, they'll want to exercise that level of collective power again. Ultimately all this means in the immediate future is more attacks on the left and anti-fascists, but if that continues for a sustained period of time and they're able to continue operating despite the level of opposition and repression they face, we could be in a place where people really need to be concerned. I really wouldn't be shocked to see something happen here like the attacks in Sweden recently where neo-Nazis effectively did a pogrom.


----------



## chilango (Feb 5, 2016)

jimmer said:


> I think it comes across as being about impressions, but to think it's just that is naive. Ultimately it's about power. The ability to crush an opposing political movement and control the streets. The far-right are a long way off being able to control the streets on a scale where people would notice, but for a very brief period on Saturday that's effectively what they did. Attacking political opponents, hospitalising members of the media, acting without impunity. That's the first time many of the younger lot will have tasted what that power is like and they'll have a taste for it, they'll want to exercise that level of collective power again. Ultimately all this means in the immediate future is more attacks on the left and anti-fascists, but if that continues for a sustained period of time and they're able to continue operating despite the level of opposition and repression they face, we could be in a place where people really need to be concerned. I really wouldn't be shocked to see something happen here like the attacks in Sweden recently where neo-Nazis effectively did a pogrom.



I think that's the long term "vision".

But, they're a long, long way off it. Further than they've historically been I'd argue.

For now, it is still about creating an image, an impression - and part of that is the momentary rush of "collective power" that you talk about. But at this stage that isn't even symbolic control of streets. Not yet. Never mind maintaining any sort of tangible control.

I would be shocked if we saw something like the attacks in Sweden. I wouldn't be shocked if we saw a pale imitation of it hyped up on YouTube or Facebook or whatever. You can see that the likes of Britain First and National Action are clearly looking at this angle.  That would be cause enough for alarm.

None of this should be taken as an excuse for complacency. Things can change pretty quickly if you take your eye off the ball. But rather its simply an attempt to apply a bit of longer/wider context from the outside as it were.


----------



## framed (Feb 9, 2016)

*TAL Fanzine Blog:*
*They Think It’s All Dover… Fascists Humiliated By Antifa!*


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 9, 2016)

framed said:


> *TAL Fanzine Blog:*
> *They Think It’s All Dover… Fascists Humiliated By Antifa!*


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 9, 2016)

There's been some pathetic drivel written about Dover. That's the article we should have had some time ago.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 10, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> There's been some pathetic drivel written about Dover. That's the article we should have had some time ago.



It's ok - but it was written by someone who didn't make it to Dover! Be nice if it gave a heads up to the AFN rather than AFA 'n all.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 10, 2016)

It's a solid piece. It's a political position firmly opposed to the liberal left. It does not make exceptions for fascists just because they are muslims...unlike some on the left have done over the years. This is important for working class support. There'll be plenty of waverers on the fashes side. If anti-fash is clearly in opposition to those bastards it takes the wind out of the 'Patriots' sails.

It's a sober but passionate call to arms, referencing recent history to propose an appropriate strategy.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 10, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> It's a solid piece. It's a political position firmly opposed to the liberal left. It does not make exceptions for fascists just because they are muslims...unlike some on the left have done over the years. This is important for working class support. There'll be plenty of waverers on the fashes side. If anti-fash is clearly in opposition to those bastards it takes the wind out of the 'Patriots' sails.
> 
> It's a sober but passionate call to arms, referencing recent history to propose an appropriate strategy.



As I said - it's ok. It ticks a lot of boxes that certain people like (slagging off 'hippies and Corbynistas' for example) but it ignores the fact that there's been an active ultra-nationalist street movement in the UK since 2009. This is not a new phenomenon.

I'm not sure it proposes a 'strategy' - it makes a few obvious points (we need a movement, it'd be better if it was a big movement etc etc) and then sprinkles the term 'working class' about a bit.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 10, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> As I said - it's ok. It ticks a lot of boxes that certain people like (slagging off 'hippies and Corbynistas' for example) but it ignores the fact that there's been an active ultra-nationalist street movement in the UK since 2009. This is not a new phenomenon.
> 
> I'm not sure it proposes a 'strategy' - it makes a few obvious points (we need a movement, it'd be better if it was a big movement etc etc) and then sprinkles the term 'working class' about a bit.



You're missing the point re: 2009. The EDL were the soft face of fascism. Their popularity relied on bringing a broad spectrum of the working class right wing together. To do this the hardcore had to suck it up and go along with the we're not racist, support our troops and Islamic extremists....and flew Israeli flags. It was confused and contrived.

What we're seeing today is a sea change. They are openly neo nazi. They aren't courting the working class right wing like the EDL, see the bands of middle class nipsters in their ranks. They are exclusively and overtly about coming after 'the reds'. This is about settling scores and feeling entitled to the neo-nazi street presence like there is in many places on the continent. A presence they do not have thanks to the previous generation of anti-fascists. This is a position that must not be squandered. It's a wake up call.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 10, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> You're missing the point re: 2009. The EDL were the soft face of fascism. Their popularity relied on bringing a broad spectrum of the working class right wing together. To do this the hardcore had to suck it up and go along with the we're not racist, support our troops and Islamic extremists....and flew Israeli flags. It was confused and contrived.
> 
> What we're seeing today is a sea change. They are openly neo nazi. They aren't courting the working class right wing like the EDL, see the bands of middle class nipsters in their ranks. They are exclusively and overtly about coming after 'the reds'. This is about settling scores and feeling entitled to the neo-nazi street presence like there is in many places on the continent. A presence they do not have thanks to the previous generation of anti-fascists. This is a position that must not be squandered. It's a wake up call.



Just to point out that everything that the SEA and the NF have done in Dover hasn't been about 'the reds' - it's been about immigration. The NF are still certainly focused on 'the working class right wing'. 

Any obsession with 'the REDS' has got little to do with 'an earlier generation of anti fascists' - it's to do with the fact that some on the left recognised the threat of an ultra-nationalist street movement in 2009 and have been mobilising against it ever since and are now regarded by the fash as the enemy.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 10, 2016)

The immigration banner is just an opportunist rallying point. 

The EDL I find it hard to describe as ultra nationalist. Nationialist, yes. Hard right, of course but trying to paint them as thousands of neo nazis is ignorant.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 10, 2016)

I guess you've come through the school of the SWP or similar.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 10, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I guess you've come through the school of the SWP or similar.



Then I'd guess you haven't got a fucking clue what you're on about.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 10, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Then I'd guess you haven't got a fucking clue what you're on about.



Your solution is mass demos. That's all you've come out with. This is the blinkered approach of the UAF. Big demos are important but they are only a tactic and not a strategy.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 10, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> The immigration banner is just an opportunist rallying point.
> 
> The EDL I find it hard to describe as ultra nationalist. Nationialist, yes. Hard right, of course but trying to paint them as thousands of neo nazis is ignorant.



Who is painting them as thousands of neo-Nazis? I'm not. I still hold that politically speaking  the anti-Islam street movements were more dangerous than those of the neo-Nazi groups because their views resonate with the sections of the general public in a way that sieg-heiling and waving a swastika about don't.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 10, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Your solution is mass demos. That's all you've come out with. This is the blinkered approach of the UAF. Big demos are important but they are only a tactic and not a strategy.



The solution at the moment is mass demos because the opposition are currently trying to build through mass marches organised online. They're not doing paper sales, leafletting estates or organising meetings above pubs. If they were then anti-fascist tactics would have to change. 

You might have noticed a slight difference in emphasis between an AFN and UAF callout for a mass demo no? 

The UAF approach is (generally) to hold a rally in the same town and the same time as the EDL (or whoever) to activley engage with the police and local politicians and 'community leaders'. They tend to end up dealing with affluent 'stakeholders' who are happy that the day pass without any 'trouble'. They do succeed in bringing the unions on board often. 

The other approach is a mass demo that attempts to block the route of the march or some such. 

What are your answers?


----------



## Anudder Oik (Feb 10, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> The immigration banner is just an opportunist rallying point.




I think that at the heart of the EDL mobilizations, deep down and unspoken, was a dislike of immigration and a fear of change, as well as other factors such as dienfranchisement. That's what it tapped into. This nazi lot are just laying it bare. Having said that I think the internal fighting at EDL demos showed that the wider EDL supporters dislike the cranky NF lot and not just for the bad publicity that seig heilers were giving. The reasons for this fault line would need to be studied by any serious anti-fascist as it may be useful.

Now, look at the bloody flag the NF had at Dover, ffs, a german ww2 navy flag with NF emblazened in it. Even cunts are gonna think they're cunts.

As for the working class getting involved in anti-fascism, I can't see much of that happening myself. There aren't any struggles going on that would normally politicize a generation and mass immigration doesn't go down well. I fear that the slogan "Refugees are welcome here" may have a negative effect and at worst encourage people to see the anti-fascists as elitists or out of touch. This slogan, however humane, is now synonimous for mass immigration. I may be wrong but it seems that support and disagreement for the slogan is split by class. Middle class support it, working class don't.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 10, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> What are your answers?



These small but highly violent groups need to be stamped out before they have an opportunity to rock up at demos. Blocking a route is fairly pointless if you're allowing them to grow. As the article states above, they need to be pre-emptively challenged both physically and politically.

Trying to recreate what you perceive as strength (the blocs on demos you've seen on the continent) is a defensive tactic which is good for protecting people from punches but not so good for flying lumps of concrete. We need to go on the offensive.

A major problem is that the lefts current discourse is often dominated by the middle class. With the implosion of the SWP and UAF the AFN has a prime opportunity to reach out to the greater working class.

Don't play the victim in propaganda or actions.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 13, 2016)

I may be wrong but it seems that support and disagreement for the slogan is split by class. Middle class support it, working class don't.[/QUOTE]

not sure it's as cut and dry as all that, but feels hard to argue with the basic premise - 'Open Borders' feels like a pretty abstract aspiration at times.


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 13, 2016)

cantsin said:


> I may be wrong but it seems that support and disagreement for the slogan is split by class. Middle class support it, working class don't.



not sure it's as cut and dry as all that, but feels hard to argue with the basic premise - 'Open Borders' feels like a pretty abstract aspiration at times.[/QUOTE]


It's middle class wank .


----------



## kingfisher (Feb 13, 2016)

cantsin said:


> I may be wrong but it seems that support and disagreement for the slogan is split by class. Middle class support it, working class don't.



not sure it's as cut and dry as all that, but feels hard to argue with the basic premise - 'Open Borders' feels like a pretty abstract aspiration at times.[/QUOTE]
LOOK IF WE ACTUALLY HAD A REVOLUTION, yeah on this small island, are we actually gonna say we are gonna have open borders? yeah for refugees but for the capitilist CIA wreckers? they can jog on - no utopian things ever worked, BEXCause THERES ALWAYS BEEN WR3ECKERS,


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> not sure it's as cut and dry as all that, but feels hard to argue with the basic premise - 'Open Borders' feels like a pretty abstract aspiration at times.




It's middle class wank .[/QUOTE]

Trouble is that it's opposite - CLOSED BORDERS or REGULATED BORDERS is ruling class wank.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> These small but highly violent groups need to be stamped out before they have an opportunity to rock up at demos. Blocking a route is fairly pointless if you're allowing them to grow. As the article states above, they need to be pre-emptively challenged both physically and politically.
> 
> Trying to recreate what you perceive as strength (the blocs on demos you've seen on the continent) is a defensive tactic which is good for protecting people from punches but not so good for flying lumps of concrete. We need to go on the offensive.
> 
> ...



Never seen any 'blocs on demos' on the continent so I'm a bit baffled there. 

"Pre-emptively challenged", "go on the offensive" "stamped out" - like  a lot of stuff written on the left, this looks great on paper and if you put it into practice I'll be mightily impressed but it's a bit short on actual practicality.

As far as discourse on the left goes then there's the stuff written by the orgs involved e.g the AFN on their blogs etc and then there 's whoever the mainstream press happen to want to talk to e.g Dan Glass, that's simply to do with the class structure of the press.


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 14, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> It's middle class wank .



Trouble is that it's opposite - CLOSED BORDERS or REGULATED BORDERS is ruling class wank.[/QUOTE]

Regulated borders are an issue that has very strong working class support across the board . Last time I checked Schengen wasn't the result of working class agitation but neo liberal capitalism and the free market . It's not the 1850s any more . Ruling classes operate differently . As does capital . 
This one world utopia stuff is definitely middle class wank .


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 14, 2016)

malatesta32 said:


> money spent, cant make kent.



It's chilly, put on a nice pullover, if you're going to Dover ,
And maybe a scarf, for the larf .


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Trouble is that it's opposite - CLOSED BORDERS or REGULATED BORDERS is ruling class wank.



Regulated borders are an issue that has very strong working class support across the board . Last time I checked Schengen wasn't the result of working class agitation but neo liberal capitalism and the free market . It's not the 1850s any more . Ruling classes operate differently . As does capital .
This one world utopia stuff is definitely middle class wank .[/QUOTE]

But Schengen and free movement within Europe are contingent with the Fortress Europe idea. Free movement within Europe and razor-wire fences around it. I'm sure Schengen enjoys wide support amongst that part of Europe's working class that it enabled to travel elsewhere for a higher wage.

Schengen and free movement within Europe are a different argument to how to deal with the mass movement of refugees from Syria, Iraq and Libya. As the left are we really going to start arguing that refugees should be left to drown in the Med?


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 14, 2016)

Just carry on as you are , arguing there should be no borders, one world,  and everyone in the world should move to Europe if they want to .  It's working brilliantly . A sure fire recipe for working class support .

Don't mind me .


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Just carry on as you are , arguing there should be no borders, one world,  and everyone in the world should move to Europe if they want to .  It's working brilliantly . A sure fire recipe for working class support .
> 
> Don't mind me .



Just carry on as you are, arguing that there should be borders, ethno-linguistic nation states, razor-wire, border patrols, Europe for the europeans. It's working brilliantly . A sure fire recipe for a better world.

Don't mind us


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 14, 2016)

The point is nobody will be minding you


----------



## andysays (Feb 14, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> The point is nobody will be minding you



And who here or elsewhere do you think cares about anything you say?

The point is that once again you're coming out with all sorts of right-wing bollocks and then attempting to justify it by claiming that everyone who's working class thinks along the same reactionary lines as you. But you're wrong, we don't.

Why don't you stop trying to justify your tired old shit by claiming it's pro-working class when actually it's objectively pro-boss class in just about every way, and admit that you just don't like anyone who's not like you in your narrow minded bigoted outlook, doesn't matter if it's immigrants, gays, women, etc, keep them all out and/or in their place.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Just carry on as you are , arguing there should be no borders, one world,  and everyone in the world should move to Europe if they want to .  It's working brilliantly . A sure fire recipe for working class support .
> 
> Don't mind me .


the imposition of borders as we know them today of recent origin, so it's not a pipedream to imagine a world without the fuss which accompanies international travel these days. and in a world without borders i think most people would move to north america in preference to europe.


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 14, 2016)

andysays said:


> And who here or elsewhere do you think cares about anything you say?
> 
> The point is that once again you're coming out with all sorts of right-wing bollocks and then attempting to justify it by claiming that everyone who's working class thinks along the same reactionary lines as you. But you're wrong, we don't.
> 
> Why don't you stop trying to justify your tired old shit by claiming it's pro-working class when actually it's objectively pro-boss class in just about every way, and admit that you just don't like anyone who's not like you in your narrow minded bigoted outlook, doesn't matter if it's immigrants, gays, women, etc, keep them all out and/or in their place.



Now now Tarquin. 

Your just proving my point for me. 

Business loves open borders and cheap labour . It's why businessmen created schengen and the free market .I haven't come out with anything right wing . Your Utopianism is a middle class affectation and your hysterical reaction to even the mildest disagreement to it is why working class people will continue to turn their backs on you . And tbh I think many of you prefer it like that .


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Now now Tarquin.
> 
> Your just proving my point for me.
> 
> Business loves open borders and cheap labour . It's why businessmen created schengen and the free market .I haven't come out with anything right wing . Your Utopianism is a middle class affectation and your hysterical reaction to even the mildest disagreement to it is why working class people will continue to turn their backs on you . And tbh I think many of you prefer it like that .


if business loves open borders why isn't the business-friendly tory party promoting open borders?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> if business loves open borders why isn't the business-friendly tory party promoting open borders?



It is. It just can't alienate its racist membership and voters by being open about it. They want a divided and disempowered w/c. They want cheap labour, they are the bosses. They want a housing crisis, they are the landlords.

By allowing the m/c to dictate discourse most people will be alienated. 

Have a read of this by Lisa McKenzie.....

The refugee crisis will hit the UK’s working class areas hardest | Lisa Mckenzie


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> if business loves open borders why isn't the business-friendly tory party promoting open borders?



Some of them do . Just like all the other pro business parties in Europe .


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Some of them do . Just like all the other pro business parties in Europe .


they don't seem so keen on ob if you listen to what they say and look at what they do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> It is. It just can't alienate its racist membership and voters by being open about it. They want a divided and disempowered w/c. They want cheap labour, they are the bosses. They want a housing crisis, they are the landlords.
> 
> By allowing the m/c to dictate discourse most people will be alienated.
> 
> ...


most people are alienated anyway by virtue of living in a capitalist society


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> if business loves open borders why isn't the business-friendly tory party promoting open borders?



Probably for the same reason the tiny ineffectual fringe who do are a tiny ineffectul fringe . It'd be political suicide .
 Most people reckon one world Utopianism is the stuff of cranks . Who neither give a shit about the consequences or the people who would actually feel the consequences .

Not to worry though . The handy thing about one world, no borders ballsology is its proponents can just call people nasty names if they disagree with it. ANd then they can be completely discounted, ignored and forgotten about . And that's what generally happens across the board .


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Now now Tarquin.





Casually Red said:


> The handy thing about one world, no borders ballsology is its proponents can just call people nasty names if they disagree with it.



Not that you'd stoop to mudslinging of course.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Now now Tarquin.
> 
> Your just proving my point for me.
> 
> Business loves open borders and cheap labour . It's why businessmen created schengen and the free market .I haven't come out with anything right wing . Your Utopianism is a middle class affectation and your hysterical reaction to even the mildest disagreement to it is why working class people will continue to turn their backs on you . And tbh I think many of you prefer it like that .



Business doesn't love open borders (except for capital flow). It loves regulated borders - a drip feed of immigrants to undercut the local working class, but also a world divided up into spheres of affluence.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 14, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Business doesn't love open borders (except for capital flow). It loves regulated borders - a drip feed of immigrants to undercut the local working class, but also a world divided up into spheres of affluence.



Yea businesses hate having a mass pool of cheap labour to exploit. 

Are you a swappie turncoat? RS21?


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Yea businesses hate having a mass pool of cheap labour to exploit.



Yeah - but they want that mass pool of labour elsewhere. Doesn't matter where - as long as labour and environmental regulations are weaker.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Are you a swappie turncoat? RS21?



Play the ball, not the man.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 14, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Yeah - but they want that mass pool of labour elsewhere. Doesn't matter where - as long as labour and environmental regulations are weaker.



This is a discussion about fascism in the uk. Not about some mythical capitalist overlord that desires homeostasis inside all of its states.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> This is a discussion about fascism in the uk. Not about some mythical capitalist overlord that desires homeostasis inside all of its states.



The question was - should UK anti-fascists associate themselves with the sentiment and slogan "Refugees welcome here". Personally I think it's the only course of action that makes sense.

Not sure where you got a 'mythical overlord' from - am I a conspiraloon or a SWPie?


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## DrRingDing (Feb 14, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> The question was - should UK anti-fascists associate themselves with the sentiment and slogan "Refugees welcome here". Personally I think it's the only course of action that makes sense.



Did you read Lisa's article above?


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## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Did you read Lisa's article above?



Yes - when it came out. She makes valid points about how the burden of housing refugees falls on the worst off. 

Should we then make it our 'anti-fascist' position to demand that the state restrict the flow of migrants either by violence or by paying Turkey or some other less affluent country to house them in tents until the UN decides it's safe for them to go home. 'Cos that's what the opposition are saying.


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> *the imposition of borders as we know them today of recent origin,* so it's not a pipedream to imagine a world without the fuss which accompanies international travel these days. and in a world without borders i think most people would move to north america in preference to europe.



yeah, there was a lot less fuss back in the day . If you transgressed on someone's turf without an invite you got a sword up the Jaxie, or taken prisoner and either enslaved or ransomed .

It's a pipe dream . Like Wicca and that nonsense too . Even Druids didn't wander hither and thinner were they pleased . Willy nilly.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 14, 2016)

blut und boden


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> yeah, there was a lot less fuss back in the day . If you transgressed on someone's turf without an invite you got a sword up the Jaxie, or taken prisoner and either enslaved or ransomed .
> 
> It's a pipe dream . Like Wicca and that nonsense too . Even Druids didn't wander hither and thinner were they pleased . Willy nilly.


druids got thinner as they wandered i think you'll find.


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 14, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Yes - when it came out. She makes valid points about how the burden of housing refugees falls on the worst off.
> 
> Should we then make it our 'anti-fascist' position to demand that the state restrict the flow of migrants either by violence or by paying Turkey or some other less affluent country to house them in tents until the UN decides it's safe for them to go home. 'Cos that's what the opposition are saying.




How about you just stop shrieking " cunt " at people for not being a fan of open borders . And realise that to get on in the real world you'll have to agree to disagree with ordinary people and not alienate the living fuck out of them . Nobody's demanding you have to change your utopian beliefs , you've a right to them. What you've no right to do though is silence and condemn ordinary people for not buying into the same hokum .

I'm all for the most robust physical challenges to fascism but it also has to be tackled politically and socially . What you are doing...and fuck me you are...is saying either people must agree with your one world carry on or they're in the same tent as the far right . A more sure fire way of driving them into it I never heard . Total alienation from anti fascism and the left in general lies down that route .

This isn't some little bubble, it's real life .


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> How about you just stop shrieking " cunt " at people for not being a fan of open borders . And realise that to get on in the real world you'll have to agree to disagree with ordinary people and not alienate the living fuck out of them . Nobody's demanding you have to change your utopian beliefs , you've a right to them. What you've no right to do though is silence and condemn ordinary people for not buying into the same hokum .
> 
> I'm all for the most robust physical challenges to fascism but it also has to be tackled politically . What you are doing...and fuck me you are...is saying either people must agree with your one world carry on or they're in the same tent as the far right . A more sure fire way of driving them into it I never heard . Total alienation from anti fascism and the left in general lies down that route .
> 
> This isn't some little bubble, it's real life .



When'd I call you a 'cunt'? Or anyone? Or silence them? Or do anything apart from put my point of view ?


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 14, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Did you read Lisa's article above?



I read it. I thought the conclusion was pretty sound.



> Our response must be that all social inequality is unjust. We must turn our anger on to those ideologues who promote austerity measures, social cleansing and a policy of profit before people, and not on to each other, whether the others are Syrian refugees needing a place of safety, or poor British working-class mothers living on council estates and struggling to get by.




I also read her twitter account where she says



> *Lisa Mckenzie* ‏@*redrumlisa*
> 
> 
> .@*LukeEdeNoronha* no I believe in open borders the free movement of people. No Borders-no refugees-no one is illegal



Sound woman.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> When'd I call you a 'cunt'? Or anyone? Or silence them? Or do anything apart from put my point of view ?


you're so bloody unreasonable, disputing cr's inventions


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 14, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Yes - when it came out. She makes valid points about how the burden of housing refugees falls on the worst off.
> 
> Should we then make it our 'anti-fascist' position to demand that the state restrict the flow of migrants either by violence or by paying Turkey or some other less affluent country to house them in tents until the UN decides it's safe for them to go home. 'Cos that's what the opposition are saying.



Have a read of the IWCA's position taken many years ago..... IWCA policy on asylum seekers and immigration | The Heckler


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Have a read of the IWCA's position taken many years ago..... IWCA policy on asylum seekers and immigration | The Heckler



Not read that before .. but again it seems to be making the kind of common sense points Liza was making. You think anyone out and about in Dover (or anywhere else) is trying to get refugees dumped on the poorest communities and has no analysis or awareness of wealth and resource inequality?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 14, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Not read that before .. but again it seems to be making the kind of common sense points Liza was making. You think anyone out and about in Dover (or anywhere else) is trying to get refugees dumped on the poorest communities and has no analysis or awareness of wealth and resource inequality?



This is not about you. This is about nipping fascism in the bud. You carry on with your simplistic statements you are giving more ground to the opposition. A blind and simplistic pro-immigration banner will be doing the job of the fash.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> This is not about you. This is about nipping fascism in the bud. You carry on with your simplistic statements you are giving more ground to the opposition. A blind and simplistic pro-immigration banner will be doing the job of the fash.



Write your own banner then and bring it along. What would it say?


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## DrRingDing (Feb 14, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Write your own banner then and bring it along. What would it say?



I like this one...


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I like this one...



It's good ..I'm in the photo, are you?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 14, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> It's good ..I'm in the photo, are you?



Nah, I couldn't make Liverpool. Absolutely gutted.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

It's an easy one to make a slogan for. National Action are self avowed Nazis. They hand the propaganda to you on a plate. There were Refugees Welcome banners in Liverpool 'n all.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 14, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Your solution is mass demos. That's all you've come out with. This is the blinkered approach of the UAF. Big demos are important but they are only a tactic and not a strategy.





DrRingDing said:


> Nah, I couldn't make Liverpool. Absolutely gutted.



Liverpool was a 'mass demo'


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2016)

If the question was actually put to working class communities , rather than to the ' left' , about closed , regulated or open borders I wonder what the conclusion would be or what answers they would come up with?


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 15, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> If the question was actually put to working class communities , rather than to the ' left' , about closed , regulated or open borders I wonder what the conclusion would be or what answers they would come up with?



Which working class communities? The ones currently fleeing Aleppo?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 15, 2016)

Only indigenous people allowed in this referendum!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Only indigenous people allowed in this referendum!


what, people who had four grandparents born in this country?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> what, people who had four grandparents born in this country?



Great grandparents, to be sure.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Great grandparents, to be sure.


make that 8 great grandparents then i suppose. or trace your aryan ancestry back to 1750 or something


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> make that 8 great grandparents then i suppose. or trace your aryan ancestry back to 1750 or something



And the lineage has to be consistently working class. One shop owner in there and you're disqualified Im afraid.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And the lineage has to be consistently working class. One shop owner in there and you're disqualified Im afraid.


i bet you'd let arkwright vote


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 15, 2016)

Not sure if acting is working class or not. Anyone written any papers on it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not sure if acting is working class or not. Anyone written any papers on it?


Google Scholar


----------



## jimmer (Feb 15, 2016)

Next mobilisation by the far-right groups present in Dover is in Manchester towards the end of the month. North West Infidels (NWI) are the organisers and they've dived head first into the world of Combat 18 imagery. They're billing the event as part of a 'nationalist uprising' and are refusing to liaise with the police.

NWI protest:



Manchester Anti-fascists counter-protest:



People have been suggesting what's happening at the moment is the Blood & Honour scene mobilising. Would explain why the Chelsea Headhunters are returning to far-right street activity and it's the main link between the indigenous far-right and the Polish far-right types who're apparently mobilising for Manchester.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2016)

jimmer said:


> Next mobilisation by the far-right groups present in Dover is in Manchester towards the end of the month. North West Infidels (NWI) are the organisers and they've dived head first into the world of Combat 18 imagery. They're billing the event as part of a 'nationalist uprising' and are refusing to liaise with the police.
> 
> NWI protest:
> 
> ...



this will end well


----------



## jimmer (Feb 15, 2016)

Presumably it will end with a Copeland or a Breivik and plenty of jail sentences.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2016)

jimmer said:


> Presumably it will end with a Copeland or a Breivik and plenty of jail sentences.


there's a couple of wannbe copelands and breiviks every year, sent down without much fanfare.


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 16, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Which working class communities? The ones currently fleeing Aleppo?



. How about the British working class. Or the working class across Europe. Were these anti fascist mobilisations are actually taking place, and were fascism is on the rise 
 Unless the European or British working class been officially discounted and dumped as the _cause de jour_ now .

Your not an Alleppo based activist as far as I'm aware .


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 16, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> . How about the British working class. Or the working class across Europe. Unless they've been t ]
> 
> Your not an Alleppo based activist as far as I'm aware .


But the people that  you support the forcing of assad people. All sex  case RAPERS. 
10million refugees. For opposing assad.


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## The39thStep (Feb 16, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Which working class communities? The ones currently fleeing Aleppo?


Geographical working class communities anywhere in England.


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## Red Sky (Feb 16, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Geographical working class communities anywhere in England.



Then I reckon the answer would be different depending on if we were in Haringey or Hartlepool. I also suspect that there wold be a variety of opinions no matter where you asked.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Then I reckon the answer would be different depending on if we were in Haringey or Hartlepool. I also suspect that there wold be a variety of opinions no matter where you asked.


by no means, the uk working class one homogenous block from kent to kettering and beyond[/The39thStep]


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> by no means, the uk working class one homogenous block from kent to kettering and beyond[/The39thStep]



They await only the vanguard to awake them to their historical purpose.


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 16, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> If the question was actually put to working class communities , rather than to the ' left' , about closed , regulated or open borders I wonder what the conclusion would be or what answers they would come up with?



It'd probably depend a lot on who was putting the question. According to McKenzies article there seems to be working class mums who instinctively know not to even talk to the wider left , because they know from experience they'll immediately be judged, scorned and given the message they've gotten their entire lives, " you're a bit shit, aren't you ? Please fuck off back to your rat hole and stop stinking up the place with your silly opinions..like they bloody matter  " . Well it'd be more polite than that but ..same humiliating message at the end of the day . The one they've always gotten . You don't count and I don't want to hear you, be quiet and go away .
I think you'd need the UN or someone to conduct that survey .

I think myself it's a real mistake to confuse and conflate anti fascism with support for open borders. While there's definitely points of convergence in the issues , the fact is its utterly pointless swanning into an area from outside waving a  " refugees welcome" banner , when the reality on the ground could well be different , for a host of reasons . That's totally self defeating and potentially very counter productive . Anti fascism is about confronting and defeating fascism, open borders is a separate issue . It impinges upon anti fascism as an issue but ultimately it's  not the same issue . And confusing and conflating the 2 things is a big mistake IMO .

Anti fascism ..successful that is..isn't just about physically confronting fascists, it's about draining the swamp of alienation and bitterness they thrive in . Convincing people that the fascists only want to exploit grievances for a warped agenda that's contrary to their own interests, and basic morality . Alienating working class communities by announcing on their behalf, without asking them, " refugees welcome " simply isn't going to do that . Especially in areas were there isn't a wholehearted welcome . It'll only add to it . A scenario were the left , and indeed anti fascism, is added to the list of working class grievances is something anti fascists should be conscious of . And I'd suggest, maybe not doing . Because that could end badly . As any strategy that isn't firmly rooted in realism will.

Luckily as things stand the fascists have completely lost the plot , gone full Adolf, and won't be making any headway in England for the foreseeable. But still . Point stands .


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> It'd probably depend a lot on who was putting the question. According to McKenzies article there seems to be working class mums who instinctively know not to even talk to the wider left , because they know from experience they'll immediately be judged, scorned and given the message they've gotten their entire lives, " you're a bit shit, aren't you ? Please fuck off back to your rat hole and stop stinking up the place with your silly opinions..like they bloody matter  " . Well it'd be more polite than that but ..same humiliating message at the end of the day . The one they've always gotten . You don't count and I don't want to hear you, be quiet and go away .
> I think you'd need the UN or someone to conduct that survey .
> 
> I think myself it's a real mistake to confuse and conflate anti fascism with support for open borders. While there's definitely points of convergence in the issues , the fact is its utterly pointless swanning into an area from outside waving a  " refugees welcome" banner , when the reality on the ground could well be different , for a host of reasons . That's totally self defeating and potentially very counter productive . Anti fascism is about confronting and defeating fascism, open borders is a separate issue . It impinges upon anti fascism as an issue but ultimately it's  not the same issue . And confusing and conflating the 2 things is a big mistake IMO .
> ...


what is the wider left?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 16, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Luckily as things stand the fascists have completely lost the plot , *gone full Adolf*, and won't be making any headway in England for the foreseeable. But still . Point stands .





......but be wary about what you define as "headway". If successfully attacking left groups is considered by them as making "headway" which it would be as this shit hasn't occurred regularly and successfully for a long time....then it's an issue.


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 16, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> ......but be wary about what you define as "headway". If successfully attacking left groups is considered by them as making "headway" which it would be as this shit hasn't occurred regularly and successfully for a long time....then it's an issue.



Only if they get away with it . But on the positive side the hardcore true believers have emerged from behind their EDL sandbags and left themselves more visible and vulnerable . Whether physically or politically . I think the course of action to address them while their going in that direction speaks for itself .


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 16, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> It'd probably depend a lot on who was putting the question. According to McKenzies article there seems to be working class mums who instinctively know not to even talk to the wider left , because they know from experience they'll immediately be judged, scorned and given the message they've gotten their entire lives, " you're a bit shit, aren't you ? Please fuck off back to your rat hole and stop stinking up the place with your silly opinions..like they bloody matter  " . Well it'd be more polite than that but ..same humiliating message at the end of the day . The one they've always gotten . You don't count and I don't want to hear you, be quiet and go away .
> I think you'd need the UN or someone to conduct that survey .
> 
> I think myself it's a real mistake to confuse and conflate anti fascism with support for open borders. While there's definitely points of convergence in the issues , the fact is its utterly pointless swanning into an area from outside waving a  " refugees welcome" banner , when the reality on the ground could well be different , for a host of reasons . That's totally self defeating and potentially very counter productive . Anti fascism is about confronting and defeating fascism, open borders is a separate issue . It impinges upon anti fascism as an issue but ultimately it's  not the same issue . And confusing and conflating the 2 things is a big mistake IMO .
> ...



The two issues aren't automatically conflated. There is obviously a big overlap between those willing to come out on the streets and oppose fascists and those in favour of No Borders but no anti-fascist group/movement that I'm aware of makes it compulsory to believe in No Borders. You certainly don't have to believe in open borders to want to do more for the millions in the terrible situation of fleeing from Syria. During the EDL years the issue hardly came up, as they professed to not be worried by immigration but only Radical Islam. 

You call a demo - people turn up with banners. Some of them say things you might not automatically agree with. 

Seeing as we're talking about Dover, the whole issue here began with the National Front trying to shut down locals doing refugee solidarity work. So some elements of the local community at least do want to make refugees welcome. Should we defend them against fascist intimidation or leave them to it until we've had a chance to consult the entire local working class?


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## The39thStep (Feb 16, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Then I reckon the answer would be different depending on if we were in Haringey or Hartlepool. I also suspect that there wold be a variety of opinions no matter where you asked.


Why would it be different in Hartlepool ?


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## The39thStep (Feb 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> what is the wider left?


Glastonbury ? No wait that was the anarchist hinterland.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> It'd probably depend a lot on who was putting the question. According to McKenzies article there seems to be working class mums who instinctively know not to even talk to the glastonbury , because they know from experience they'll immediately be judged, scorned and given the message they've gotten their entire lives, " you're a bit shit, aren't you ? Please fuck off back to your rat hole and stop stinking up the place with your silly opinions..like they bloody matter  " .





The39thStep said:


> Glastonbury ? No wait that was the anarchist hinterland.


nah, doesn't work.


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## DrRingDing (Feb 16, 2016)

I know I should listen to myself when I say this more than anyone else but maybe we should leave the sectarianism out of this discussion?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I know I should listen to myself when I say this more than anyone else but maybe we should leave the sectarianism out of this discussion?


no


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## Casually Red (Feb 16, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> The two issues aren't automatically conflated. There is obviously a big overlap between those willing to come out on the streets and oppose fascists and those in favour of No Borders but no anti-fascist group/movement that I'm aware of makes it compulsory to believe in No Borders. You certainly don't have to believe in open borders to want to do more for the millions in the terrible situation of fleeing from Syria. During the EDL years the issue hardly came up, as they professed to not be worried by immigration but only Radical Islam.
> 
> You call a demo - people turn up with banners. Some of them say things you might not automatically agree with.
> 
> Seeing as we're talking about Dover, the whole issue here began with the National Front trying to shut down locals doing refugee solidarity work. So some elements of the local community at least do want to make refugees welcome. Should we defend them against fascist intimidation or leave them to it until we've had a chance to consult the entire local working class?



Not at all . Like I've said those who believe in open borders have a right to those views . Personally I don't agree with that position but the infintely more important point is not letting  the fascists getting away with targeting anyone  on the left as it only encourages them . All I'm saying is there's a time, place and context were campaigning for open borders is more appropriate . What's being defended from the fascists is your RIGHT to do so . And that's what should unite people. Because tomorrow itll be someone elses right to take a position that comes under attack if they get away with it .Introducing a divisive position itself ..well it's divisive . It doesn't contribute to the issue at hand . And has the potential to play into their hands .
All many in the local community see is 2 groups of people fighting each other , one pro open borders and one anti. And that's the message they often get. Luckily the anti ones in this case were waving swastikas ..but still. It's a wider point, I'm not focussing specifically on Dover and every in and out there .

Well done for confronting them btw...forgot to say that earlier .


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## Casually Red (Feb 16, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Why would it be different in Hartlepool ?



Because anyone who isn't local gets accused of being a French spy. And then hung by the neck until they are dead .


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 16, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Why would it be different in Hartlepool ?



The real question is .. why would it be different in Haringey? (or would it?)


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Why would it be different in Hartlepool ?


everything is different in hartlepool


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 16, 2016)

Yeah but theres that chippy that is excellent. i asked for a filet au haddock, french fries and a bagutte and woke up on the pavement:
'we only do cod you southern puff!'
anyway, EDL preston this week will be small
NWI in MCR but there be trouble afoot! National Action men are imploding cos 1 of their members has been exposed as a ... wait for it! s*x offender. eek.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 16, 2016)

Apparently NA are trying to spin the registered sex offender as a hero. I kid you not.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 16, 2016)

Early contenders for first place in this years 'Spot the braincell' then.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 17, 2016)

some of far right chums opinions from Shirtfront: 
'National Action are supporting a man named Ryan Fleming that homosexually attacked a under age boy because the under age boy would not blow him.'
'Nicky Crane might have "come out" as a homo but I'm not aware of him ever being convicted of a non-consensual homo sex act with a 17 year old. Ryan Fleming is a convicted, self-confessed nonce. But Fleming's lemmings dash over the cliff in his defence, calling him a "hero".'
'most of us think NA needs exposing for what it really is, and the more you and your little bunch of goons post rubbish and defend your willy-prodding mate the bigger the hole you're digging, and the sooner NA stands for Not Applicable the better.'
& nauseum...


----------



## FuckParade (Feb 17, 2016)

.


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## DownwardDog (Feb 17, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Why would it be different in Hartlepool ?



It would depend where in Hartlepool you asked. You'd get middle class mumbling in West Park. In Tankerville Street you wouldn't get out alive.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2016)

DownwardDog said:


> It would depend where in Hartlepool you asked. You'd get middle class mumbling in West Park. In Tankerville Street you wouldn't get out alive.


what, smothered with foie gras?


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## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> The real question is .. why would it be different in Haringey? (or would it?)


Dunno I suspect that views on immigration are far more likely to be influenced by class if anything. There are some people I have come across who automatically assume that non white people are more likely to be against immigration controls. I have yet to see any research that confirms their assumptions.
There was some research that did indicate that views differed on types of immigrants ie some were seen more favourably than others. Bringing in doctors for example from overseas was seen as more acceptable than bringing in  low skilled workers.


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## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> everything is different in hartlepool


I got hit in the back of the head with a Lucazade bottle at a Hartlepool / Darlington game in the 70s


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## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I got hit in the back of the head with a Lucazade bottle at a Hartlepool / Darlington game in the 70s


bloody darlington fans


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## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> bloody darlington fans


I was.


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## Casually Red (Feb 18, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I got hit in the back of the head with a Lucazade bottle at a Hartlepool / Darlington game in the 70s



I remember standing in queue there outside a nightclub back in the Stock Aitken and Waterman heyday and almost everyone in it looked like this







Fuck that I thought...


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Feb 18, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> I remember standing in queue there outside a nightclub back in the Stock Aitken and Waterman heyday and almost everyone in it looked like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 20, 2016)

Various far-right splinter groups claiming to have disrupted a UAF 'Refugees Welcome' demo in Newcastle today. They say they occupied the demo point. Any northern comrades shed any light on this?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 20, 2016)

The ruins of the UAF empire being squatted by paedos and other assorted pricks.


----------



## jimmer (Feb 21, 2016)

London Anti-fascists report on Dover -

Dover: Wake up call for the left, no victory for nationalism


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 21, 2016)

As I have been saying for months the ninja thing is futile. The fascists used it to their benefit in Dover by ninjering themselves and attacking anti fascists who did not realise the ninja next to them was a fascist. The ONLY way forward is to connect with the working class in working class areas, believe it or not this is where the fascists have any foothold, not in those leafy, fluffy, gentrified London safer spaces or whatever they call them. Very nice of the student types to get on their coaches, dress up for the day and invade a town they know nothing about. But for sustainability the work has to be long term in Towns and estates that unfortunately the identity politics types have no interest in or understanding of.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> As I have been saying for months the ninja thing is futile. The fascists used it to their benefit in Dover by ninjering themselves and attacking anti fascists who did not realise the ninja next to them was a fascist. The ONLY way forward is to connect with the working class in working class areas, believe it or not this is where the fascists have any foothold, not in those leafy, fluffy, gentrified London safer spaces or whatever they call them. Very nice of the student types to get on their coaches, dress up for the day and invade a town they know nothing about. But for sustainability the work has to be long term in Towns and estates that unfortunately the identity politics types have no interest in or understanding of.


strange how you ignore the fash had no connection to dover. funny that.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 21, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> The fascists used it to their benefit in Dover by ninjering themselves and attacking anti fascists who did not realise the ninja next to them was a fascist.



Total bollocks. You've been getting your info from fash FB pages.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 21, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> As I have been saying for months the ninja thing is futile. The fascists used it to their benefit in Dover by ninjering themselves and attacking anti fascists who did not realise the ninja next to them was a fascist.



Back that up.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2016)

Totally do all this stuff in public and say where and when it happened.

Embarrassing all round/joey.


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## The Flying Pig (Feb 21, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Totally do all this stuff in public and say where and when it happened.
> 
> Embarrassing all round/joey.


If you have not seen it then I certainly won't be sending you on any scouting missions.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 21, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Back that up.


Have look you will see.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 21, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Total bollocks. You've been getting your info from fash FB pages.


Again if you have not seen it I will not be sending you on any recci missions


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> strange how you ignore the fash had no connection to dover. funny that.


You can say what u like but my stance still stands. It also applies to other actions these publicity craving uni types get involved in. It is all short term look at meism.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 21, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> It is all short term look at meism.



As opposed to your behaviour on here.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> strange how you ignore the fash had no connection to dover. funny that.


I have more reason to hate the fascists than most, which is why i get so vexed by the all knowing, self righteous day trippers.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 21, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> As opposed to your behaviour on here.





Fozzie Bear said:


> As opposed to your behaviour on here.


Well said that person.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 21, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Well said that person.



LOL


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> strange how you ignore the fash had no connection to dover. funny that.


Strange how you ignore the main thrust of my comments.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2016)

Thread locked


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 22, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Have look you will see.



No. You made a wild claim, back it up. Why do you want to see anti fascists go to jail?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Strange how you ignore the main thrust of my comments.


yeh? the main thrust of your comments seems to be that one lot of people can parachute in where they will while you object to other people descending in opposition.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> I have more reason to hate the fascists than most, which is why i get so vexed by the all knowing, self righteous day trippers.


you're a big teaser


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 22, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> I have more reason to hate the fascists than most ... self righteous day trippers.


1/ how do you know? 
2/ there are a LOT of people on here who have been at this for ages and earned a lot of respect for their endeavours.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 22, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Have look you will see.



Been 'watching vids' again have you?


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 22, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> I will not be sending you on any recci missions



No - you won't.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 22, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> No. You made a wild claim, back it up. Why do you want to see anti fascists go to jail?


No I obviously do not want to see any anti fascists end up in court but I also do not want to see antifascists put them selves at unnecessary risk of injury or arrest due to poor reconnaissance or planning.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 22, 2016)

Rule number one never ever stop at a Motorway service station on route to a demo. Anyone with an ounce of previous experience knows this.
Two things can happen, you either bump into the opposition or the police. The former can lead to violence and injury and the latter can lead to violence, injury, everyone on the coach searched and the coach delayed or turned back.  If anyone is unaware I can refer you to various previous demos where less
organised groups have had this happen. If you don't know your history and learn from it how can you plan your future?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Rule number one never ever stop at a Motorway service station on route to a demo. Anyone with an ounce of previous experience knows this.
> Two things can happen, you either bump into the opposition or the police. The former can lead to violence and injury and the latter can lead to violence, injury, everyone on the coach searched and the coach delayed or turned back.  If anyone is unaware I can refer you to various previous demos where less
> organised groups have had this happen. If you don't know your history and learn from it how can you plan your future?


yeh thank you for handily posting that weeks after everyone else had cottoned on.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh thank you for handily posting that weeks after everyone else had cottoned on.


cottoned on - yep !! But not one person even gave it a second thought on their merry way. As I am finding out on here, I am 100% certain the know alls from the London unis, wel know it all so aint going to listen to some oik who does not talk thier language


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> cottoned on - yep !! But not one person even gave it a second thought on their merry way. As I am finding out on here, I am 100% certain the know alls from the London unis, wel know it all so aint going to listen to some oik who does not talk thier language


perhaps it's the charming way you address them as equals.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 22, 2016)

Yes I agree. Hopefully there are none of those pompous uni types on here. I have tried at face to face meetings to discuss forthcoming demos with them but they really do know a lot more than oiks from the satellite towns. Working class types are just not worth listening to.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Working class types are just not worth listening to.


it's disappointing you've had that experience.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 22, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Yes I agree. Hopefully there are none of those pompous uni types on here. I have tried at face to face meetings to discuss forthcoming demos with them but they really do know a lot more than oiks from the satellite towns. Working class types are just not worth listening to.



Stop whinging about students. Plant your own banner and start organising then.


----------



## kingfisher (Feb 22, 2016)

is it alright though, to work with the secret services explicitly - ala searchlight hnh - to get antifascist data/intel - , and on a second train is it alright (i think it is) to just wish the secret service would destablize them far right guys a bit (though this means any call for ALL COVER NAMES of undercovers is a bit compromised maybe, because we aint just talkin about soppy climate camp (mi5) wankers , and is the flying pig a cop? you guys seem to be giving him a hard time, but i think it sonly been said explicitly once , - and just why was that thread about clapton ultras been snitches (or whatever) deleted, and in my little corner of squatting/activbism (which iv mainly retired from to focus on my anti-spy stuff) THEY WERE ALWAYS TRYING TO MAKE US GO CLAPTON - (i said sorry footballs shit and breathing in red smoke aint gonna make it better) - just your thoughts, abuse me if you like, PM me if you like, - and Students, yeah they are all spies but so is everyone


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 23, 2016)

'Working class types are just not worth listening to.' Okay, I'll get me coat!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> is it alright though, to work with the secret services explicitly - ala searchlight hnh - to get antifascist data/intel


most people who work with searchlight / hnh surely so do to get fascist data and intel. not that anyone i know works with searchlight or hnh.


----------



## framed (Feb 23, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> is it alright though, to work with the secret services explicitly - ala searchlight hnh - to get antifascist data/intel - , and on a second train is it alright (i think it is) to just wish the secret service would destablize them far right guys a bit (though this means any call for ALL COVER NAMES of undercovers is a bit compromised maybe, because we aint just talkin about soppy climate camp (mi5) wankers , and is the flying pig a cop? you guys seem to be giving him a hard time, but i think it sonly been said explicitly once , - and just why was that thread about clapton ultras been snitches (or whatever) deleted, and in my little corner of squatting/activbism (which iv mainly retired from to focus on my anti-spy stuff) THEY WERE ALWAYS TRYING TO MAKE US GO CLAPTON - (i said sorry footballs shit and breathing in red smoke aint gonna make it better) - just your thoughts, abuse me if you like, PM me if you like, - and Students, yeah they are all spies but so is everyone



And, from what I hear, the snitch from Clapton who made the statement to police that effectively sealed the conviction of an anti-fascist Celtic supporter was, _ahem_, on the anti-fascist side at Dover...


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 23, 2016)

framed said:


> And, from what I hear, the snitch from Clapton who made the statement to police that effectively sealed the conviction of an anti-fascist Celtic supporter was, _ahem_, on the anti-fascist side at Dover...


Is that a fact or an allegation?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 23, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> is it alright though, to work with the secret services explicitly - ala searchlight hnh - to get antifascist data/intel - , and on a second train is it alright (i think it is) to just wish the secret service would destablize them far right guys a bit (though this means any call for ALL COVER NAMES of undercovers is a bit compromised maybe, because we aint just talkin about soppy climate camp (mi5) wankers , and is the flying pig a cop? you guys seem to be giving him a hard time, but i think it sonly been said explicitly once , - and just why was that thread about clapton ultras been snitches (or whatever) deleted, and in my little corner of squatting/activbism (which iv mainly retired from to focus on my anti-spy stuff) THEY WERE ALWAYS TRYING TO MAKE US GO CLAPTON - (i said sorry footballs shit and breathing in red smoke aint gonna make it better) - just your thoughts, abuse me if you like, PM me if you like, - and Students, yeah they are all spies but so is everyone


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 23, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> is it alright though, to work with the secret services explicitly - ala searchlight hnh - to get antifascist data/intel - , and on a second train is it alright (i think it is) to just wish the secret service would destablize them far right guys a bit (though this means any call for ALL COVER NAMES of undercovers is a bit compromised maybe, because we aint just talkin about soppy climate camp (mi5) wankers , and is the flying pig a cop? you guys seem to be giving him a hard time, but i think it sonly been said explicitly once , - and just why was that thread about clapton ultras been snitches (or whatever) deleted, and in my little corner of squatting/activbism (which iv mainly retired from to focus on my anti-spy stuff) THEY WERE ALWAYS TRYING TO MAKE US GO CLAPTON - (i said sorry footballs shit and breathing in red smoke aint gonna make it better) - just your thoughts, abuse me if you like, PM me if you like, - and Students, yeah they are all spies but so is everyone


All I can say is think yourself very lucky or clever that you never made the step into the abyss that is called safer spaces clupton.


----------



## jimmer (Feb 24, 2016)

framed said:


> And, from what I hear, the snitch from Clapton who made the statement to police that effectively sealed the conviction of an anti-fascist Celtic supporter was, _ahem_, on the anti-fascist side at Dover...


I don't think this is true. From what I can remember the people who gave statements were some ex-cop who has supported Clapton for ages (not one of the Ultras) and a young couple who were Dulwich Hamlet fans. Not anybody who would take part in an anti-fascist mobilisation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2016)

framed said:


> And, from what I hear, the snitch from Clapton who made the statement to police that effectively sealed the conviction of an anti-fascist Celtic supporter was, _ahem_, on the anti-fascist side at Dover...


if true it is nice that he has decided which side he's on.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 24, 2016)

jimmer said:


> I don't think this is true. From what I can remember the people who gave statements were some ex-cop who has supported Clapton for ages (not one of the Ultras) and a young couple who were Dulwich Hamlet fans. Not anybody who would take part in an anti-fascist mobilisation.


Why ruin a perfectly good story?


----------



## kingfisher (Feb 24, 2016)

AN EX COP? yeah, heard that story before, did he quit the force when he was 18 (conveniently excusing passing out photo) - bloody hell - who was orchestrating SH hate campaign, This celtic anti fa shit , Calling liza mckenzie racist, ETC ETC - all helped with vice magazine, eh, i reckon someone has the old thread archived , would they pass it to me,


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 24, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> AN EX COP? yeah, heard that story before, did he quit the force when he was 18 (conveniently excusing passing out photo) - bloody hell - who was orchestrating SH hate campaign, This celtic anti fa shit , Calling liza mckenzie racist, ETC ETC - all helped with vice magazine, eh, i reckon someone has the old thread archived , would they pass it to me,



It's still archived on this site - in the dustbin. Trawl through all 107 pages of it if that floats your boat. More heat than light though


----------



## kingfisher (Feb 24, 2016)

what is the best way to download a whole forum like this (like all the posts fgrom all the subforums) and how big would it be , not more than a gig or somethign ? may be good mental hospital project


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## Red Sky (Feb 24, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> may be good mental hospital project



That it would be.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 24, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> what is the best way to download a whole forum like this (like all the posts fgrom all the subforums) and how big would it be , not more than a gig or somethign ? may be good mental hospital project



Dunno how techie you are, how much effort you're willing to in or if this is any good but a quick google produced this..... GitHub - qjroberts/xenforo-scraper: Scrape a single XenForo forum


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## kingfisher (Feb 24, 2016)

get my interns on it


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> get my interns on it


i expect your mates in gchq already have it neatly filed away by date, author and subject.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i expect your mates in gchq already have it neatly filed away by date, author and subject.


Not sure why anybody would want to rake up all that clapton crap again. As he says it is only down the road. Pay the place a visit and make up your own mind.


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## kingfisher (Feb 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i expect your mates in gchq already have it neatly filed away by date, author and subject.



YES , i expect they have mister 100,000 messages. i do think thats interesting the division of labour - GCHQ have 4x staff of mi5, but are they "go carry fetch" boys for mi5? do they do policy? and we know the ravey message boards was monitored by old bill, but the division of labour between twitter, facebook, bbs, intersting, different set of skills, DOUBT YOU WILL DISCUSS THIS FAM, my mates in GCHQ, personally i reckon one of my mates lets call him FALCON was gchq field agent, (they maybe came in with the earth bound anonymous) - but , yeah with the #spycops - bitd the online legend wasnt a problem but now we see a person online - "say , on a forum - Just shutting dfown spy talk DEMANDING EVIDENCE " o na forum, or on facebook , there in a group eh it doesnt matter, eh expect this flying pig gonna get some stick now, - but yeah BASICALLY the SECRET SERVICES is the most fascinating subject ever, do you think you are anonymous Pickman's model are you behind a wall? well, all the more old school naval intelligence crossword compiler skill to work out who you are, eh it doesnt matter, your a spook, were all spooks , apart from a few, eh like the woman in wetherspoons today throwing down a leaflet "you will be mad---- or you will be dead" they been saying this to me for weeks, the man in the co op in the ambulance jacket deciding over bread and yoghurts - "balooning around " in the parlance, bit of eye contact a nod, he was like someone stoned! !! but im glad they are not using their best people on me and mine, there are real DANGEROUS PEOPLE out there. (arent there) but dont negate the amount that the SS establishment wants to retain its hegemony on narrative control (or something)


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> YES , i expect they have mister 100,000 messages. i do think thats interesting the division of labour - GCHQ have 4x staff of mi5, but are they "go carry fetch" boys for mi5? do they do policy? and we know the ravey message boards was monitored by old bill, but the division of labour between twitter, facebook, bbs, intersting, different set of skills, DOUBT YOU WILL DISCUSS THIS FAM, my mates in GCHQ, personally i reckon one of my mates lets call him FALCON was gchq field agent, (they maybe came in with the earth bound anonymous) - but , yeah with the #spycops - bitd the online legend wasnt a problem but now we see a person online - "say , on a forum - Just shutting dfown spy talk DEMANDING EVIDENCE " o na forum, or on facebook , there in a group eh it doesnt matter, eh expect this flying pig gonna get some stick now, - but yeah BASICALLY the SECRET SERVICES is the most fascinating subject ever, do you think you are anonymous Pickman's model are you behind a wall? well, all the more old school naval intelligence crossword compiler skill to work out who you are, eh it doesnt matter, your a spook, were all spooks , apart from a few, eh like the woman in wetherspoons today throwing down a leaflet "you will be mad---- or you will be dead" they been saying this to me for weeks, the man in the co op in the ambulance jacket deciding over bread and yoghurts - "balooning around " in the parlance, bit of eye contact a nod, he was like someone stoned! !! but im glad they are not using their best people on me and mine, there are real DANGEROUS PEOPLE out there. (arent there) but dont negate the amount that the SS establishment wants to retain its hegemony on narrative control (or something)


sorry to burst your bubble but secret services not most fascinating subject ever, and you're a pub bore who bigs up the people you affect to deplore while ignoring other more likely reasons for group failure than state involvement. yes mi5 and the police infiltrate some groups. but they're not everywhere all the time.


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes mi5 and the police infiltrate some groups. but they're not everywhere all the time.


 
CLEARLY YOU ARE ONE OF THEM AND THIS IS YOUR WOEFUL ATTEMPT AT MISDIRECTION


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> CLEARLY YOU ARE ONE OF THEM AND THIS IS YOUR WOEFUL ATTEMPT AT MISDIRECTION


clearly


----------



## krink (Feb 25, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> CLEARLY YOU ARE ONE OF THEM AND THIS IS YOUR WOEFUL ATTEMPT AT MISDIRECTION



you can tell by his shoes


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 25, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> YES , i expect they have mister 100,000 messages. i do think thats interesting the division of labour - GCHQ have 4x staff of mi5, but are they "go carry fetch" boys for mi5? do they do policy? and we know the ravey message boards was monitored by old bill, but the division of labour between twitter, facebook, bbs, intersting, different set of skills, DOUBT YOU WILL DISCUSS THIS FAM, my mates in GCHQ, personally i reckon one of my mates lets call him FALCON was gchq field agent, (they maybe came in with the earth bound anonymous) - but , yeah with the #spycops - bitd the online legend wasnt a problem but now we see a person online - "say , on a forum - Just shutting dfown spy talk DEMANDING EVIDENCE " o na forum, or on facebook , there in a group eh it doesnt matter, eh expect this flying pig gonna get some stick now, - but yeah BASICALLY the SECRET SERVICES is the most fascinating subject ever, do you think you are anonymous Pickman's model are you behind a wall? well, all the more old school naval intelligence crossword compiler skill to work out who you are, eh it doesnt matter, your a spook, were all spooks , apart from a few, eh like the woman in wetherspoons today throwing down a leaflet "you will be mad---- or you will be dead" they been saying this to me for weeks, the man in the co op in the ambulance jacket deciding over bread and yoghurts - "balooning around " in the parlance, bit of eye contact a nod, he was like someone stoned! !! but im glad they are not using their best people on me and mine, there are real DANGEROUS PEOPLE out there. (arent there) but dont negate the amount that the SS establishment wants to retain its hegemony on narrative control (or something)


Rather than all this incoherent rambling just get yer arse down to clupton where you can find out all you need to know from the undercovers, informers and spies down there. p.s. please do let the rest of us know how you get on


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2016)

krink said:


> you can tell by his shoes


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 27, 2016)

Sabcat Printing| Before Engaging in Public Antifascist Activity Ask Yourself....


----------



## comrade spurski (Feb 28, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> I have more reason to hate the fascists than most, which is why i get so vexed by the all knowing, self righteous day trippers.


You make the worst all knowing self righteous comment I have heard in ages about having "more reason to hate fascists than most" to demonstrate why you get so "vexed by the all knowing self righteous day trippers"?
There are just not enough  to go round.
You arguments are nowhere near as well thought out, persuasive or logical as you seem to think. You are coming across as an all knowing, self righteous arse as best. At worst you come across as a wanker who enjoys simply slagging of anti fascists.
Just my opinion of course


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 28, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Sabcat Printing| Before Engaging in Public Antifascist Activity Ask Yourself....



It's an interesting piece and possibly deserves it's own thread (or to go on one of the more generic anti fascist ones). Strange that it emerges via Sabcat as the West Mids has been a bit of a black hole for anti-fascist organising, at least as far as set pieces go.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 28, 2016)

comrade spurski said:


> You make the worst all knowing self righteous comment I have heard in ages about having "more reason to hate fascists than most" to demonstrate why you get so "vexed by the all knowing self righteous day trippers"?
> There are just not enough  to go round.
> You arguments are nowhere near as well thought out, persuasive or logical as you seem to think. You are coming across as an all knowing, self righteous arse as best. At worst you come across as a wanker who enjoys simply slagging of anti fascists.
> Just my opinion of course


Oh dear you have obviously been sold the capitalist dream of personality politics. Listen to what is being said rather than how it is being said


----------



## framed (Feb 28, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> It's an interesting piece and possibly deserves it's own thread (or to go on one of the more generic anti fascist ones). Strange that it emerges via Sabcat as the West Mids has been a bit of a black hole for anti-fascist organising, at least as far as set pieces go.



It's not written by someone from the West Midlands (or the East Midlands, for that matter). It's stated in the introduction that the article grew out of informal discussions among some of those previously involved in AFA and Antifa (from various parts of the country). I wasn't involved in those discussions, but I was asked to comment and offer criticisms/amendments to a couple of drafts before it was published.

Sabcat is the publisher, but as far as I am aware, the article was not written by the guys at Sabcat. They published it because, like me, they agree that it's an important contribution to anti-fascist debate.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 28, 2016)

framed said:


> It's not written by someone from the West Midlands (or the East Midlands, for that matter). It's stated in the introduction that the article grew out of discussions among some of those previously involved in AFA and Antifa (from various parts of the country). I wasn't involved in those discussions, but I was asked to comment and offer criticisms/amendments to a couple of drafts before it was published.
> 
> Sabcat is the publisher, but as far as I am aware, the article was not written by the guys at Sabcat. They published it because, like me, they agree that it's an important contribution to anti-fascist debate.



That would explain why it has such an 'outsider looking in' feel to it. As it states at the beginning - militant anti-fascism has (for some reason) been an anarchist preserve for some time and yet the author is talking about the need to drive for socialism, to have red flags on demos, to use lefty/Trot language like 'the people rose up'.  It's assumption throughout is that the purpose of anti-fascism is to build the movement, recruit members into the party etc etc, rather than confront and defeat right wing street movements.


 Some of it reads as a critique of what the UAF were organising three years ago i.e mass community demos where the local M.P gets to stand up and sound off about the evils of racism, while voting for public service cuts the next week , some of the rest of the article reads as a critique of (small a) antifa, i.e 'latter day ninjas'  while never really making the distinction. 


Asking why you're doing what you're doing - why this tactic, why that propaganda? should be part of anyone political's practice, anti-fascist or not. Believe it or not there are people currently mobilising who have put some thought into these questions


----------



## framed (Feb 28, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> That would explain why it has such an 'outsider looking in' feel to it. As it states at the beginning - militant anti-fascism has (for some reason) been an anarchist preserve for some time and yet the author is talking about the need to drive for socialism, to have red flags on demos, to use lefty/Trot language like 'the people rose up'.  It's assumption throughout is that the purpose of anti-fascism is to build the movement, recruit members into the party etc etc, rather than confront and defeat right wing street movements.



The writer may not himself have been involved directly for a couple of years, but among those who discussed the issues he is raising are people who are very much still active anti-fascists. I have my own doubts about the overall impact and limitations of the proposed propoganda stunts in the article. Been there, done that, is how I felt when reading it, but I didnt feel strongly enough about it to shoot down the obvious enthusiasm of it.




Red Sky said:


> Some of it reads as a critique of what the UAF were organising three years ago i.e mass community demos where the local M.P gets to stand up and sound off about the evils of racism, while voting for public service cuts the next week , some of the rest of the article reads as a critique of (small a) antifa, i.e 'latter day ninjas'  while never really making the distinction.



Fair point.




Red Sky said:


> Asking why you're doing what you're doing - why this tactic, why that propaganda? should be part of anyone political's practice, anti-fascist or not. Believe it or not there are people currently mobilising who have put some thought into these questions




I think that's really the crux of the article from how I read it. From the discussions, it was felt by some of those who are currently involved in militant anti-fascist actions that some of the basics have been lost and that a restatement of basic priciples would be of value to a new generation of anti-fascists. The intention isn't to slag people off for perceived political inadequacies, but to encourage their activity and offer some reminders of similar approaches that have worked in the past.


----------



## comrade spurski (Feb 28, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Oh dear you have obviously been sold the capitalist dream of personality politics. Listen to what is being said rather than how it is being said


Oh dear...you are obviously a wanker who knows fuck all...you a manager in the NHS by any chance?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 28, 2016)

comrade spurski said:


> Oh dear...you are obviously a wanker who knows fuck all...you a manager in the NHS by any chance?


That will be any form of sensible political discussion put to one side then.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 28, 2016)

framed said:


> The intention isn't to slag people off for perceived political inadequacies, but to encourage their activity and offer some reminders of similar approaches that have worked in the past.



It would be useful if the author/s had provided more specific examples. When they say this "The general public might sympathise with an ‘innocent bystander’ assaulted by the opposition, but if your event made a big noise about smashing fascism, and fascism smashed you, they will judge you harshly." do they have a particular mobilisation in mind? 

Also "This includes banners or placards that carry any slogans like ‘let them in’ or ‘no borders’ – do not make or carry anything like this. If you want to make the case for No Borders, i.e. dissolving national borders before we have abolished capitalism, then take it to the workers’ movement, and try and get it adopted by the unions." and my favourite "If that is what you want, go hunt sabbing, get it out your system." are basically snide digs at anarchist hobbyhorses. However for all the mentions of 'socialism' throughout the article it's not made clear why the author's think that anarchists have been left carrying the anti-fascist can. Perhaps a call out to the unions to throw their weight behind anti-fascism would be more appropriate.


----------



## framed (Feb 28, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> It would be useful if the author/s had provided more specific examples. When they say this "The general public might sympathise with an ‘innocent bystander’ assaulted by the opposition, but if your event made a big noise about smashing fascism, and fascism smashed you, they will judge you harshly." do they have a particular mobilisation in mind?
> 
> Also "This includes banners or placards that carry any slogans like ‘let them in’ or ‘no borders’ – do not make or carry anything like this. If you want to make the case for No Borders, i.e. dissolving national borders before we have abolished capitalism, then take it to the workers’ movement, and try and get it adopted by the unions." and my favourite "If that is what you want, go hunt sabbing, get it out your system." are basically snide digs at anarchist hobbyhorses. However for all the mentions of 'socialism' throughout the article it's not made clear why the author's think that anarchists have been left carrying the anti-fascist can. Perhaps a call out to the unions to throw their weight behind anti-fascism would be more appropriate.



I welcome it as a contribution to, or the start of a debate. As I intimated above, I didn't have to agree with all of it in order to endorse it as a contribution. There's language in it that I would have phrased differently, or jettisoned as unnecessary sectarian barbs. I doubt that it's the last piece that Sabcat will publish on the strategy and tactics appropriate to anti-fascism and hopefully subsequent articles from the same author may reflect examples of the practice that he preaches.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 28, 2016)

framed said:


> I welcome it as a contribution to, or the start of a debate. As I intimated above, I didn't have to agree with all of it in order to endorse it as a contribution. There's language in it that I would have phrased differently, or jettisoned as unnecessary sectarian barbs. I doubt that it's the last piece that Sabcat will publish on the strategy and tactics appropriate to anti-fascism and hopefully subsequent articles from the same author may reflect examples of the practice that he preaches.



Look foward to it - even if  T-Shirt printers makes for an unusual political front group.


----------



## jimmer (Feb 29, 2016)

Was the article written by someone involved in Red London?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Sabcat Printing| Before Engaging in Public Antifascist Activity Ask Yourself....



What would be handy is if old anti-fash that are union full-timers would help the AFN get some cash from their employers. We know there's lots of money there and the UAF simply are not a force anymore (if they ever were).


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> What would be handy is if old anti-fash that are union full-timers would help the AFN get some cash from their employers. We know there's lots of money there and the UAF simply are not a force anymore (if they ever were).


Hohoho I guess that was a pure comedy quote or you have not been keeping up with the current events


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Hohoho I guess that was a pure comedy quote or you have not been keeping up with the current events



Fuck off.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Hohoho I guess that was a pure comedy quote or you have not been keeping up with the current events



I guess they'll be queuing up to hand over cash to your org - when you decide what to call it.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 29, 2016)

Looking like fash are returning


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Fuck off.


So you obviously don't know the reasons and you were actually putting a serious question out there.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 29, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Looking like fash are returning


Well hopefully rule number one will be followed this time. Rule number two if you don't already know, is ... please don't ninja up unless you are prepared to stand your ground. Too many are turning up ninja'd up and are not fit for purpose. When you get decked or run away it gives the fascists an easy victory and unsettles committed and determined anti fascists. By all means support the demo but their is no need to ninja unless you are prepared to physically stand your ground.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 29, 2016)

There's lots of reasons to ninja. Having a dossier handed to your employer that you're a domestic extremist being one upon many. I guess you don't run into that too much if all your ops are 'covert'.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 29, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There's lots of reasons to ninja. Having a dossier handed to your employer that you're a domestic extremist being one upon many. I guess you don't run into that too much if all your ops are 'covert'.


I do not accept that reply. In the real world to attend an anti fascist demo does not make you "a domestic extremist". It makes you a responsible citizen. To ninja may well to others put you in a.d.e. category.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> I do not accept that reply. In the real world to attend an anti fascist demo does not make you "a domestic extremist". It makes you a responsible citizen.



Have you been living in the UK for the past however many years? Or on the moon?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> So you obviously don't know the reasons and you were actually putting a serious question out there.



The world does not revolve around that incident. Why do you want to keep highlighting it?

Who are you?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 29, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Looking like fash are returning



Let's see who rocks up this.

Flying Pig are you going to come along and show us the roar of our ways?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Let's see who rocks up this.
> 
> Flying Pig are you going to come along and show us the roar of our ways?





DrRingDing said:


> The world does not revolve around that incident. Why do you want to keep highlighting it?
> 
> Who are you?


If you really are unaware of the repercussions of whatever incident you are suggesting then you have not fully understood what exactly took place.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 29, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Have you been living in the UK for the past however many years? Or on the moon?


you can ridicule as much as you like, knowledge of your enemy and experience counts for a lot. Again if the above is your assessment, well you will learn nothing. That is your choice.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 29, 2016)

You're not making any sense.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> If you really are unaware of the repercussions of whatever incident you are suggesting then you have not fully understood what exactly took place.





Mr.Bishie said:


> You're not making any sense.


Maybe Dr ringading can put you in the picture.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 29, 2016)

So you don't believe that plod 'domestic extremist' files against all walks of UK activists exist?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 29, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So you don't believe that plod 'domestic extremist' files against all walks of UK activists exist?


Really ? Woooo! scary. Part and parcel of being an activist. If you really are that scared of being on it you need to think again. Maybe that should be rule number three when attending an anti fascist demo.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Well hopefully rule number one will be followed this time. Rule number two if you don't already know, is ... please don't ninja up unless you are prepared to stand your ground. Too many are turning up ninja'd up and are not fit for purpose. When you get decked or run away it gives the fascists an easy victory and unsettles committed and determined anti fascists. By all means support the demo but their is no need to ninja unless you are prepared to physically stand your ground.



This is very peculiar - by your own admission your only knowledge of what's happened in Dover in the last 14 months has been from 'watching vids' - what gives you the idea that you have a fucking clue what you're talking about?


----------



## Fingers (Feb 29, 2016)

Never Ninja myself. I find sunglasses and a hat does the job. Then again I work for myself so probs not at risk as others.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 29, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> This is very peculiar - by your own admission your only knowledge of what's happened in Dover in the last 14 months has been from 'watching vids' - what gives you the idea that you have a fucking clue what you're talking about?


The niavity of some on here is very worrying and if the subject matter were not so serious it would be described as laughable


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 29, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> This is very peculiar - by your own admission your only knowledge of what's happened in Dover in the last 14 months has been from 'watching vids' - what gives you the idea that you have a fucking clue what you're talking about?


Who said I have not been to Dover?


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Who said I have not been to Dover?



You weren't there in September or this January. By your admission, I could trawl back through the posts if you like.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> The niavity of some on here is very worrying and if the subject matter were not so serious it would be described as laughable



No, you're fucking laughable, you're either a troll or an imbecile.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Who said I have not been to Dover?


I am obviously wasting my time with people who are far more important than me, with far more knowledge of anti fascism than me, with far more intel than I could ever dream of and of course have years of experience of confronting fascists so why listen to anything I may have to say.
 But let me leave you with this one. When the fascists wanted to travel to Tower Hamlets in 2013 it was the RMT union staff that refused to transport the morons on their designated trains.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Really ? Woooo! scary. Part and parcel of being an activist. If you really are that scared of being on it you need to think again. Maybe that should be rule number three when attending an anti fascist demo.


no, rule 3 is don't stand near the flying pig.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> I am obviously wasting my time with people who are far more important than me, with far more knowledge of anti fascism than me, with far more intel than I could ever dream of and of course have years of experience of confronting fascists so why listen to anything I may have to say.
> But let me leave you with this one. When the fascists wanted to travel to Tower Hamlets in 2013 it was the RMT union staff that refused to transport the morons on their designated trains.


it wasn't union staff -the hedleys and cashs of the union - buttfl staff belonging to the rmt. my recollection the fash got to aldgate tho.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> I am obviously wasting my time with people who are far more important than me, with far more knowledge of anti fascism than me, with far more intel than I could ever dream of and of course have years of experience of confronting fascists so why listen to anything I may have to say.



Organise your own fucking thing then and stop fucking whinging.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Feb 29, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Organise your own fucking thing then and stop fucking whinging.


As I said I am gone. Carry on as we usually do. No fuss, no bother, no disbelieving whinging ninnies, just doing the job in the right way. 
Talk is very cheap, insults even cheaper. Strange how not one other person on here has the savy to come up with any progressive ideas.
Best leave you to it. I have more than enough fash to deal with in my own back yard


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> As I said I am gone. Carry on as we usually do. No fuss, no bother, no disbelieving whinging ninnies, just doing the job in the right way.
> Talk is very cheap, insults even cheaper. Strange how not one other person on here has the savy to come up with any progressive ideas.
> Best leave you to it. I have more than enough fash to deal with in my own back yard



You haven't come up with a single 'progressive' idea, just a load of negative straw man bollocks about what you imagine other anti-fascists to be. I wish this was the last we were gonna hear from you.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> If you really are unaware of the repercussions of whatever incident you are suggesting then you have not fully understood what exactly took place.



Trying to stir up the shit? Who are you?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> As I said I am gone. Carry on as we usually do. No fuss, no bother, no disbelieving whinging ninnies, just doing the job in the right way.
> Talk is very cheap, insults even cheaper. Strange how not one other person on here has the savy to come up with any progressive ideas.
> Best leave you to it. I have more than enough fash to deal with in my own back yard



Where's your backyard?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 29, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> I do not accept that reply. In the real world to attend an anti fascist demo does not make you "a domestic extremist". It makes you a responsible citizen. To ninja may well to others put you in a.d.e. category.



Work closely with SB to know that then?


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## The39thStep (Feb 29, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Work closely with SB to know that then?


Would he have to?


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## Red Sky (Jul 22, 2016)

Since the events of 30th of January there have been a number of arrests of anti-fascists and so far two prison sentences. The longest of those sentences was twelve months handed down to Michelle Smith, a Unite union official and single mother. Merseyside AFN are organising prisoner and arrestee support. Please bung 'em a few quid. 

Donate button on this page Merseyside Anti-Fascist Network | Facebook


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## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Since the events of 30th of January there have been a number of arrests of anti-fascists and so far two prison sentences. The longest of those sentences was twelve months handed down to Michelle Smith, a Unite union official and single mother. Merseyside AFN are organising prisoner and arrestee support. Please bung 'em a few quid.
> 
> Donate button on this page Merseyside Anti-Fascist Network | Facebook


Liked for the link rather than the news


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## The Flying Pig (Dec 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Back that up.


PINNED POST
*News Feed*







*Manchester Antifascists*
November 22 at 4:31pm · 
/// WE WILL BE ASSEMBLING AT 11:45 FOR A MIDDAY (12PM) START IN BOLTON TOWN HALL SQUARE. ///

*NO BLACK BLOC* Urban ninja and crusty punk attire will make you a target to both our opposition and the police for unfair treatment. Also, the far right have been adopting this tactic, and it would make it confusing and easier for them to infiltrate our demonstration. We will not appreciate any of our supporters showing up in this fashion.

Masks optional, but strongly advised.
Good to see Manchester Antifasicists are keeping up the militant anti fascist stance and not falling into the trap of soppy ninjas. Some on here castigated me for telling ninja's not required on Anti fascist demos, A good job our Northern comrades understand the score.


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## Red Sky (Dec 2, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> PINNED POST
> *News Feed*
> 
> 
> ...



What tidings from Bolton? Watched any good vids?


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