# Reclaim Brixton movement - meetings and April 25th protest planned



## editor (Mar 31, 2015)

It's still in its infancy, but there's good things happening here, and everyone is invited to get involved. 


> Last night, an important community event was held upstairs at the Ritzy, tasked with bringing together “activists, concerned residents, fans of Brixton and beyond on a soundtrack of some good music over a few drinks.”
> 
> With gentrification fast destroying much of Brixton’s character, the meeting was billed as an opportunity for locals to meet up, chat, network and perhaps find ways to work together to help preserve the soul of Brixton’s community.









Activists and residents gather for the first Reclaim Brixton event






Second Reclaim Brixton meeting attracts a growing number of local activists and residents

A protest has been planned for midday on April 25th.

*More:*
Reclaim Brixton Facebook
#‎reclaimbrixton‬


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## cuppa tee (Apr 7, 2015)

standard writes 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-protest-against-gentrification-10158208.html


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## The39thStep (Apr 7, 2015)

Not many people of colour in those pictures of the second meeting .What happened?


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## gabi (Apr 7, 2015)

This bit struck me as slightly ironic



> We really need Graphic Designers, publicists and media folk to volunteer and offer their services to assist in this movement if it is to be a success.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Not many people of colour in those pictures of the second meeting .What happened?


not many people in the picture of the first meeting


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## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2015)

gabi said:


> This bit struck me as slightly ironic


yer quite right. i wonder how many people at either meeting post here.


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## gabi (Apr 7, 2015)

I kind of support some of the issues, mainly housing. But it does smack quite a bit of NIMBYism. Brixton will always be changing and to be honest some of the changes I've noticed since returning after two years have been quite good.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 7, 2015)

Is this the London Black Revs event?


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## editor (Apr 7, 2015)

gabi said:


> I kind of support some of the issues, mainly housing. But it does smack quite a bit of NIMBYism. Brixton will always be changing and to be honest some of the changes I've noticed since returning after two years have been quite good.


Which ones have been "quite good" out of this list: Protest, dirty politics and bloody Pop:Brixton – how Brixton Buzz reported all the local news for March


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## editor (Apr 7, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Is this the London Black Revs event?


No, That's earlier on the same day.


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## gabi (Apr 7, 2015)

editor said:


> Which ones have been "quite good" out of this list: Protest, dirty politics and bloody Pop:Brixton – how Brixton Buzz reported all the local news for March



Well I quite like having a huge selection of quality eateries for one


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## cuppa tee (Apr 7, 2015)

gabi said:


> Well I quite like having a huge selection of quality eateries for one



theres nothing like a nice slice of battenburg when times get tough.........


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## editor (Apr 7, 2015)

gabi said:


> Well I quite like having a huge selection of quality eateries for one


That wasn't the question I asked.


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## superfly101 (Apr 7, 2015)

Who and WTF is Black Blockade?


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## Gramsci (Apr 7, 2015)

gabi said:


> I kind of support some of the issues, mainly housing. But it does smack quite a bit of NIMBYism. Brixton will always be changing and to be honest some of the changes I've noticed since returning after two years have been quite good.



The way things are going I will not have a back yard left in a few years time.

Which is why I think Reclaim Brixton was started by a couple of locals.

A huge increase in eateries means nothing to the residents of the Loughborough Estate whose TRA has voted to join the demo on the 25th.

Brixton Rec Users Group committee at meeting on weekend also agreed to join Reclaim Brixton.

Its the threat to the arches that imo was the tipping point that kick started this off. Doubtless if Network Rail get there way there will be an improved shopping experience and more eateries on that stretch of road.


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## Gramsci (Apr 7, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yer quite right. i wonder how many people at either meeting post here.



Not many from what I have seen. 

Its easy to sneer.

Two local residents have managed to get it together in short amount of time to set up an umbrella organisation for all those groups and individuals who are totally fed up with the way Brixton is going. 

They have done a great job getting people together from disparate groups. All praise to them I say.


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## gabi (Apr 7, 2015)

Who are they trying to 'Reclaim Brixton' from exactly? 

I'm reminded of a certain poet who posts on these boards' little ditty 'I'm more Brixton than you'

I think maybe it needs a bit more thought before going out protesting. Needs to be slightly more targeted.


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## Gramsci (Apr 7, 2015)

Its worth putting here the FB page for the 25th


> Brixton is widely known for its vibrancy, which is another word for social & cultural diversity. But Brixton's vibrancy now has a question mark on it. Will Brixton turn into a living museum or will it live?
> Meet up in front of the Black Cultural Archives on Windrush square on Saturday 25 April, midday to reclaim Brixton.
> 
> Earning less than £25,000? Or long-standing Afro-Caribbean resident? Maybe artist, musician? Shopkeeper? Librarian? Community worker? A teenage skater? A senior resident? A child who likes to play outside pens? Show the world your love for Brixton.
> ...


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## Gramsci (Apr 7, 2015)

gabi said:


> Who are they trying to 'Reclaim Brixton' from exactly?
> 
> I'm reminded of a certain poet who posts on these boards' little ditty 'I'm more Brixton than you'
> 
> I think maybe it needs a bit more thought before going out protesting. Needs to be slightly more targeted.



I was chatting to one of the market traders on weekend. Told him I was really glad to read his forthright remark in the SLP about the threat to arches by Network Rail- "No to turning Brixton into yuppieland."

As he said its a class and race issue. The people he ( and me) talk to around Brixton feel they are getting pushed out.

I was also chatting to one of the street artists on weekend doing one of the arches and she said they same thing is happening across central London. Shoreditch being and example. Its not just Brixton its across London.

Just look at what is happening at Sweets Way and the Aylesbury estate at the moment. Just two examples.


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## Gramsci (Apr 7, 2015)

Daughter of local resident did these two artworks in support of the shops in arches and for the demo on 25th


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## Gramsci (Apr 8, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Who and WTF is Black Blockade?




This is Black activist organised protest on same day as demo at Windrush square.

From there FB page



> London Black Revs is a self-determined working class URBAN revolutionary organisation. Our principles and offensives range from anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-homophobic and anti-fascist campaigns and operations. We are a democratic-militant organisation that encourages self-leadership but strictly adheres to fighting oppression and exploitation in non-abstract forms. We combine practical versatility, modern methods for organising, self-emancipation, direct action, militant defensive's and offensives and full commitment to the struggle as cornerstones of London Black Revolutionaries.
> Our organisation is for those who see nothing else but struggle and will not settle for anything less than a world rid of oppression and exploitation.



And the mission statement says:


> Black Liberation and the end of oppression and exploitation



Wickipedia entry


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Not many from what I have seen.
> 
> Its easy to sneer.
> 
> ...


sorry, where's the sneer?


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## Nanker Phelge (Apr 8, 2015)

Earning less than £25,000? Or long-standing Afro-Caribbean resident? Maybe artist, musician? Shopkeeper? Librarian? Community worker? A teenage skater? A senior resident? A child who likes to play outside pens? Show the world your love for Brixton.
The fight against gentrification starts here!!


I'm none of the above listed types....can I not come out to play then?


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## aussw9 (Apr 8, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Earning less than £25,000? Or long-standing Afro-Caribbean resident? Maybe artist, musician? Shopkeeper? Librarian? Community worker? A teenage skater? A senior resident? A child who likes to play outside pens? Show the world your love for Brixton.
> The fight against gentrification starts here!!
> 
> 
> I'm none of the above listed types....can I not come out to play then?



Gentrifer!


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## Nanker Phelge (Apr 8, 2015)

aussw9 said:


> Gentrifer!



Only lived here for 20+ years.....what a rotter I am....


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Earning less than £25,000? Or long-standing Afro-Caribbean resident? Maybe artist, musician? Shopkeeper? Librarian? Community worker? A teenage skater? A senior resident? A child who likes to play outside pens? Show the world your love for Brixton.
> The fight against gentrification starts here!!
> 
> 
> I'm none of the above listed types....can I not come out to play then?


You don't identify with artist /musician types then?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

.


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## aussw9 (Apr 8, 2015)

editor said:


> You don't identify with artist /musician types then?



I think the question is why do you have to identify with any of those types? Shouldn't you just have to have  connection to Brixton and care about your community?


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## Nanker Phelge (Apr 8, 2015)

editor said:


> You don't identify with artist /musician types then?



In some ways, yes, I do...


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

aussw9 said:


> I think the question is why do you have to identify with any of those types? Shouldn't you just have to have  connection to Brixton and care about your community?


I don't think their statement was intended to be an definitive list, just an example of the sort of people who may feel disenfranchised by the changes.


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## aussw9 (Apr 8, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't think their statement was intended to be an definitive list, just an example of the sort of people who may feel disenfranchised by the changes.



I understand that, however I feel that it hasn't been communicated clearly that this is an issue for all in the community and the language could inadvertently feel exclusive or point out groups who Brixton should be reclaimed from. 

I'll leave it there from now as to not draw away from the issue at hand.


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## Up the junction (Apr 8, 2015)

I'm not clear on the bascis; take what back, for whom, from whom?  Do they, for example, want Granville Arcade decaying and 1/3 empty? 

What year do they want to reset to?

Need some clarification on representation and goals.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I'm not clear on the bascis; take what back, for whom, from whom?  Do they, for example, want Granville Arcade decaying and 1/3 empty?
> 
> What year do they want to reset to?
> 
> Need some clarification on representation and goals.


pls engage brain and all should become obvious


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I'm not clear on the bascis; take what back, for whom, from whom?  Do they, for example, want Granville Arcade decaying and 1/3 empty?


I get a a bit pissed off hearing this myth repeated. It was never 1/3rd empty and the only reason it was "decaying" was because the owners at the time were intentionally running it down so they could push through their shitty redevelopment plans.


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## Up the junction (Apr 8, 2015)

editor said:


> I get a a bit pissed off hearing this myth repeated. It was never 1/3rd empty and the only reason it was "decaying" was because the owners at the time were intentionally running it down so they could push through their shitty redevelopment plans.


It's no "myth"  2nd Ave was 90% empty - fucking ghost town, 3rd Ave 30%, etc ... these are facts.


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> It's no "myth"  2nd Ave was 90% empty - fucking ghost town, 3rd Ave 30%, etc ... these are facts.


Nope. It was run down for sure, but never as bad as 1/3rd empty - and I've got plenty of pictures from that time to disprove those "facts."


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## Up the junction (Apr 8, 2015)

Then lets see 2nd Ave before the 'rent free' period.


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## Nanker Phelge (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> What year do they want to reset to?



To before the indoor market became the whitest place in London...


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> To before the indoor market became the whitest place in London...


no, just above the barrel on the left hand side there - is that someone not white? and moving toward the right, below the figure 2. but there's certainly something anemic about the place.


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## Nanker Phelge (Apr 8, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> no, just above the barrel on the left hand side there - is that someone not white? and moving toward the right, below the figure 2. but there's certainly something anemic about the place.



Tanned probably.


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Then lets see 2nd Ave before the 'rent free' period.


Hang on - you said all of _Granville Arcade_ was 1/3rd empty. It wasn't. But give me the year and I'll show you some pics.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Hang on - you said all of _Granville Arcade_ was 1/3rd empty. It wasn't. But give me the year and I'll show you some pics.


no, don't give him the exercise involved in moving the goalposts. he made his claim and has to stick with it.


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## Up the junction (Apr 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Hang on - you said all of _Granville Arcade_ was 1/3rd empty. It wasn't. But give me the year and I'll show you some pics.


90% of 2nd Ave plus bits in 3rd Ave and elswhere is 1/3 of Granville Arcade


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> 90% of 2nd Ave plus bits in 3rd Ave and elswhere is 1/3 of Granville Arcade


can i see your working?


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## Up the junction (Apr 8, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> can i see your working?


numpty + freak = clown car co-pilot


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> 90% of 2nd Ave plus bits in 3rd Ave and elswhere is 1/3 of Granville Arcade


Just look at it struggling in 2003.


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## Up the junction (Apr 8, 2015)

Is that the era they want to reset to?

Or shall we all go back another five years to be safe?


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

And here's the empty 2nd Ave in 2003: 






http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/11/...-seven-powers-magick-shop-in-brixton-village/


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Is that the era they want to reset to?


You said before the 'rent free period'. I have produced photos of that period. It wasn't as empty as you claimed.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> numpty + freak = clown car co-pilot


so you're making it up as you go along. and there was me thinking you knew something of the subject.


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## Up the junction (Apr 8, 2015)

editor said:


> You said before the 'rent free period'. I have produced photos of that period. It wasn't as empty as you claimed.


The Space Makers Agency teamed up with London & Associated Properties PLC and Lambeth Council to fill the empty shop units in the Brixton Village indoor market (aka Granville Arcade).

*Claimed to be the UK's biggest* 'empty shops project,' the disused units have been given over to temporary and permanent projects with the aim of kickstarting regeneration.

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/photos/brixton-village-indoor-market.html


Do you honestly think people don't remember how shit it was alongthere - really, who are you trying to convince?


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Do you honestly think people don't remember how shit it was alongthere - really, who are you trying to convince?


I'm not trying to convince anyone, but I'm interested in why you're choosing to ignore my photos and run with a commercial press release.

PS The ''After' in that rather deceptive press release was a one off event.


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## Up the junction (Apr 8, 2015)

Do you honestly not remember or do you have an agenda for which it suits you to not remember? Look at that photo, do you remember that?

Going back to the point, take what back, for whom, from whom?


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Do you honestly not remember or do you have an agenda for which it suits you to not remember? Look at that photo, do you remember that?
> 
> Going back to the point, take what back, for whom, from whom?


I walked through the Village almost every day for 20 years so I remember it very well. And as for the 'taking back' - I imagine they're referring to it being a true community resource and not a tourist attraction for white middle class people to go shopping in high end and unaffordable 'independent' stores. Most locals I know don't set foot in the Village any more because they either can't afford it or it offers nothing for them any more. Does that bother you in the slightest or should they just suck it up?


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## Up the junction (Apr 8, 2015)

"you imagine" - well, like a lot of people I look forward to seeing the goals fleshed out.


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> "you imagine" - well, like a lot of people I look forward to seeing the goals fleshed out.


What "goals" are these? More reduction in social housing in Brixton? The rising rents? The takeover of all long term independent traders by chains? The continued pricing out of the people living in one of London's poorest wards?


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

This chimes with Brixton's fate: 
Camden Market stall holders in 'state of fear' over development plans


> When Camden Market first opened in 1973, it was based in a bomb-damaged packing warehouse and was only expected to last a summer. Forty years later, it’s grown from counter-culture ghetto to capitalist mecca, with young tourists flocking to buy everything from Doc Martins and designer furniture to vinyl records and bongs.
> 
> Now though, stall holders say they are in a “state of fear” over plans to list the market on the stock exchange and plough the proceeds into developing 170 new flats, a potential boutique hotel, cinema and designer stores. Market veterans warn the plans risk sucking the “charm and creativity” out of an area whose edgy, bohemian vibe inspired the likes of The Clash, Amy Winehouse and Pete Doherty.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

editor said:


> This chimes with Brixton's fate:
> Camden Market stall holders in 'state of fear' over development plans


yeh there's a thread about camden


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh there's a thread about camden


I know but it seems pertinent to this thread too.


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## Mr Retro (Apr 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Hang on - you said all of _Granville Arcade_ was 1/3rd empty. It wasn't. But give me the year and I'll show you some pics.


It's interesting the way you remeber things. In my head I remember it as first avenue always full and except for a few stragglers the rest of the market more or less empty. If I'd been asked, from memory I'd have said the market wasn't 50% occupied. 

I also remeber a  thread when Mrs Magpie and Intostella raged against the new name of Brixton Village and how they would continue to call it by its proper name. Jesus how long ago was that?


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## Boudicca (Apr 8, 2015)

When I had a unit in Granville, it was probably one third empty.  As Mr Retro says, 1st Ave was usually full but 2nd wasn't.


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 8, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> It's interesting the way you remeber things. In my head I remember it as first avenue always full and except for a few stragglers the rest of the market more or less empty. If I'd been asked, from memory I'd have said the market wasn't 50% occupied.
> 
> I also remeber a  thread when Mrs Magpie and Intostella raged against the new name of Brixton Village and how they would continue to call it by its proper name. Jesus how long ago was that?


 there was a time when Granville Arcade was definitely run down with lots of empty units, it wasn't thriving in the 90s/00s.
Can't say I'm a fan of the 'Village' now - I don't want to eat in a drafty market with pidgeons flying about and insufficient toilet facililities. But you cant turn back time and it's popular. I just don't want to loose a general market selling veg/fish/fabric/pans/stuff everything - surely there is still room for both, provided the landlord doesn't price them all out.

When it comes to shops/markets/etc the best way to 'reclaim' them is with your custom - vote with your feet and your purse


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## Gramsci (Apr 8, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> sorry, where's the sneer?



If I misunderstood your post what was the point you were making?


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> When it comes to shops/markets/etc the best way to 'reclaim' them is with your custom - vote with your feet and your purse


That's not going to work in the Village because it's no longer interested in catering to its traditional crowd: it's now all about foodies and tourists.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> If I misunderstood your post what was the point you were making?


no, the way this works is you answer the question.


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## Gramsci (Apr 8, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> no, the way this works is you answer the question.



So you do not want to clarify what you were getting at. Fair enough.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> So you do not want to clarify what you were getting at. Fair enough.


you fucking don't want to clarify what you were getting at. you said 'it's easy to sneer' but when asked 'where's the sneer?' you've been unable or unwilling to point to it. where's the fucking sneer?


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## Gramsci (Apr 8, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you fucking don't want to clarify what you were getting at. you said 'it's easy to sneer' but when asked 'where's the sneer?' you've been unable or unwilling to point to it. where's the fucking sneer?



I will not reply to posts using abusive language.


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## DietCokeGirl (Apr 8, 2015)

The Village bashing makes me sad, I hate that every business there is tarred with the same brush.There are still traditional traders, maybe not as many, and I won't pretend I know how much they are or aren't adapting to the changes, but they are still there and still serving long-term customers. I'm trying to bite my tongue (er, clench my fingers in this format?) from going on a full-on rant but there's also a good few independent businesses in the village who try and contribute to the local community. I can understand why people dislike it, and dislike going there, but I feel it's got this symbolic status when there are some much bigger villains out there.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I will not reply to posts using abusive language.


you've not shown yourself willing to meaningfully respond when asked a simple question this morning which you could have answered when you passed through round half eight this morning.


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> The Village bashing makes me sad, I hate that every business there is tarred with the same brush.There are still traditional traders, maybe not as many, and I won't pretend I know how much they are or aren't adapting to the changes, but they are still there and still serving long-term customers. I'm trying to bite my tongue (er, clench my fingers in this format?) from going on a full-on rant but there's also a good few independent businesses in the village who try and contribute to the local community. I can understand why people dislike it, and dislike going there, but I feel it's got this symbolic status when there are some much bigger villains out there.


I think it's more about the inevitable trajectory the Village is on, and the way that the new lifestyle-friendly businesses are constantly bring promoted as the face of nu-Brixton in the glossy magazine features and estate agent blurb (aka the "'Brixton Village effect'"). 

Yes, it's not fair on the existing traditional businesses, but it's the very thing that will lead to them eventually being priced out and replaced by more lifestyle foodie joints and boutiques.


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you've not shown yourself willing to meaningfully respond when asked a simple question this morning which you could have answered when you passed through round half eight this morning.


Can you leave it out please.


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## Buckaroo (Apr 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I will not reply to posts using abusive language.



Don't use abusive language then


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## Gramsci (Apr 8, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> The Village bashing makes me sad, I hate that every business there is tarred with the same brush.There are still traditional traders, maybe not as many, and I won't pretend I know how much they are or aren't adapting to the changes, but they are still there and still serving long-term customers. I'm trying to bite my tongue (er, clench my fingers in this format?) from going on a full-on rant but there's also a good few independent businesses in the village who try and contribute to the local community. I can understand why people dislike it, and dislike going there, but I feel it's got this symbolic status when there are some much bigger villains out there.



Fair enough point. 

To make it clear its not Reclaim Brixton who are doing that particular demo. Reclaim Brixton demo is at Windrush sq. 

The "Handson Family" who started Reclaim Brixton have a unit in Brixton Village. I think I chatted to one of them a while back. They were there from the Spacemaker time. However they are not happy with how its ended up. The Spacemaker idea was more of making it a creative space that would cater to all. 

Market Row is a different case. That was never empty. Its ending up like Brixton Village.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Can you leave it out please.


of course. i simply wondered why i'd been accused of sneering, only to be met by prevarication. but yes, i'll leave it.


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The Spacemaker idea was more of making it a creative space that would cater to all.


A regular Brixton urbanite railed against Spacemakers from the start, by virtue of the way that he felt that they had no interest in any form of exit plan to protect existing traders once the units had been suitably hip-ified,


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## Gramsci (Apr 8, 2015)

Buckaroo said:


> Don't use abusive language then



I don’t use the F word in my posts when replying to others. It crosses a line when I get it directed at me.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> So you do not want to clarify what you were getting at. Fair enough.


simple point, agreeing with a previous post and wondering about the number of urbanites there. one of the people pictured is a colleague of mine who doesn't post here. i hope that's ok with you.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I don’t use the F word in my posts when replying to others. It crosses a line when I get it directed at me.


i'll adopt the same policy wr2 the s word.


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## Buckaroo (Apr 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I don’t use the F word in my posts when replying to others. It crosses a line when I get it directed at me.



Right, sorry, I was being pedantic and trying to be fxnxy but fxxx it, this place is off it's txxx tonight! All the best


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## Up the junction (Apr 8, 2015)

So have the revisionists now re-remembered how utterly shit it was?


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## mao (Apr 8, 2015)

This was on today's ES:


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> So have the revisionists now re-remembered how utterly shit it was?


It was 'shite' because a developer intentionally made it that way.


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## DietCokeGirl (Apr 8, 2015)

Anyway, to dare to go back to topic, I just had a proper read up on this campaign, good luck to them - I like the idea of making music and sound central to their gathering because one of the really lovely things about stepping out into Brixton is the music and sounds all around (including the CD man in the Arches, long may he remain) . And good to see housing is on their agenda.


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Anyway, to dare to go back to topic, I just had a proper read up on this campaign, good luck to them - I like the idea of making music and sound central to their gathering because one of the really lovely things about stepping out into Brixton is the music and sounds all around (including the CD man in the Arches, long may he remain) . And good to see housing is on their agenda.


I think the way that live music has been progressively pushed out of Granville Arcade - and the growth of bolshy security guards ensuring that things are all kept nicey nicey for the grazers - has proved quite instrumental in altering the overall vibe of the place.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> So have the revisionists now re-remembered how utterly shit it was?


what you don't seem to have the wit to work out is that gentrification writes off and forced out one population, traditionally the existing working class population, in favour of a new middle class population who remake the area in their image. i don't suppose anyone would say the auld brixton, the auld hoxton or wherever were perfect. but the areas could have been improved with their existing inhabitants in situ instead of communities being dispersed so some rich people can enjoy themselves.


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## Up the junction (Apr 8, 2015)

I think that's a 'yes'


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## newbie (Apr 8, 2015)

Looking at the photos of the two meetings is rather odd.  The first one looks more or less like Iexpect a meeting in Brixton to look.  The second one could have been, well anywhere, almost like it's been gentrified.


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## netbob (Apr 8, 2015)

The timeline, from what I remember, was:

That part of the market _was_ empty, but empty because of the plan to knock it down and build flats (it had been brought up by a company that had previous on buying markets, emptying them then building on them)

The plan was stopped due to residents and councilors campaigning along with the subsequent success in getting the buildings listed

The (well intentioned) response from the council was to encourage the owners to _do something_ with now empty part of the market (see photographs), now knocking it down was not an option.

The owners hired Spacemakers and were open about their reasons for doing so - to rebrand, go upmarket and focus on food and fashion rather than retail (I seem to remember the annual report refereed to them as 'specialist marketeers' and success in increasing rents?) Meanwhile, spacemakers were talking up community and sustainable food, which was at best naive.

After the _empty_ units were filled, the rents went up on the _non-empty_ units. At least half the units on Market Row, and many others in the non-empty part of Brixton Village were replaced (anecdotally evicted due to rent increases, but the facts are not on record). Many of the shops were replaced with bars/restaurants without any planning permission and residents on surrounding roads suffered an increase in antisocial behavior from the new bars without the normal routes of appeal.

The problem with Brixton Village / Spacemakers (I'm not referring to the wider issues on this thread) is not that change happened, it was almost certainly always going to. The problem was that it happened in a way that pretended to be community led change, but was actually the opposite of that.

The creation myth about an empty market saved by food is just that, a myth.

The more boring truth is that the fast, unaccountable, change in Brixton Village and Market Row, enabled by Spacemakers and a lack of planning enforcement, stole Brixton's chance to have a say over the change that was coming (even if the broad-brush economics made some change unavoidable).


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## Up the junction (Apr 8, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> what you don't seem to have the wit to work out is that gentrification writes off and forced out one population, traditionally the existing working class population, in favour of a new middle class population who remake the area in their image. i don't suppose anyone would say the auld brixton, the auld hoxton or wherever were perfect. but the areas could have been improved with their existing inhabitants in situ instead of communities being dispersed so some rich people can enjoy themselves.


Given this is a response to the extent of occupancy in Granville Arcade at a certain point, I'm not sure if you are saying the transformation of the arcade begat wider gentrification or wider gentrification begat the transformation of the arcade. tbh, I don't have much faith you know what you're talking about generally, and I'm pretty sure you'll bottle an opinon and say it was a bit of both. So, what do you say?


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## editor (Apr 8, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I think that's a 'yes'


You'd better Photoshop those photos I posted up then.


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## soupdragon (Apr 9, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> So have the revisionists now re-remembered how utterly shit it was?



And this is the best of all possible worlds isn't it.

Before the Spacemakers, the emptiness of 3rd Avenue of Granville Arcade was due to landlord actions.

Atlantic Properties (who owned it for many years before LAP bought it from them) had been a family run, fairly stable landlord, but when the parents passed it on to their kids, the kids suddenly massively hoiked the rents (maybe doubled them?) around the year 2000 (and renamed it Brixton Village at that time). This was covered in the Independent, the article used to be online. The pet shop went around 2003? Until around a year? before the spacemakers, there were still a number of businesses struggling along in there - the big Rasta shop, a Columbian restaurant where Cornercopia moved to, some clothes shops, the Reggae shop, one or two other cafes. Of course, there were 'circulation problems' with 3rd Avenue - when empty it was inevitably a bit of a dead end, and that was the reason why the council started to do a deal with LAP to knock it down and punch through to Pope’s Road. LAP then sewed as much insecurity as they could amongst the traders and people started to sell up, and move to Peckham etc.

After the market was listed the landlords were at a real loss about what to do, and were quite open to a range of possibilities I think. I think the council could have put them in touch with an organisation with an actual understanding of local markets and community development. Instead my understanding is that the council's at the time new town centre director got a hold of the Spacemakers, who had no experience of any of this, and gave them to LAP. They did this very much on the quiet without any consultation with community groups etc. The pop up project then did little to create a balanced range of businesses, did nothing to support the still remaining traders by - for example - looking to establish clusters of shops that could support and extend around existing clothes shops, and did nothing to bring in any kind of supported units for local people without any capital or experience writing business plans (which they could have done and should have done). Etc. There were a number of soft-barriers to becoming one of the ‘curated’ businesses that got a unit and the Spacemakers and council rejected the London Youth Support Trust who have 20 years or so of supporting young people from work class backgrounds from having a unit.

It may have been shit - but it was shit because the landlords were making it so. Then there was a brief moment when maybe it could have been developed in a more imaginative, broader, community developmental way than it turned out. It would have been a more involved thing to do than just say 'let a thousand flowers bloom' like the Spacemakers did, but I think LAP were genuinely stuck and would have gone with any number of things.

The Pop Brixton project is potentially the council's attempt at doing something more community developmental on land they own themselves. Hope they're not in the process of screwing that up too.


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## Up the junction (Apr 9, 2015)

Just to be clear, I think we all know _why_ 2nd Ave was largely empty and _almost all _of us acknowledge it was largely empty.


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## gabi (Apr 9, 2015)

Jesus, the NIMBYism going on here is fucking hilarious. How long do you have to have been in brixton to join this group?

Anyway, here's to Vic.



> i'm more brixton than you
> 
> whether south west nine or south west two
> one thing is irrefutably true
> ...


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## editor (Apr 9, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Just to be clear, I think we all know _why_ 2nd Ave was largely empty and _almost all _of us acknowledge it was largely empty.


Oh, we're back to just 2nd Ave now?

The story isn't that the market was on some doomed, unstoppable route to decay and was only saved by the Spacemakers and the foodies. It was cynically and intentionally laid out to rot by the developers.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Given this is a response to the extent of occupancy in Granville Arcade at a certain point, I'm not sure if you are saying the transformation of the arcade begat wider gentrification or wider gentrification begat the transformation of the arcade. tbh, I don't have much faith you know what you're talking about generally, and I'm pretty sure you'll bottle an opinon and say it was a bit of both. So, what do you say?


i'm still waiting to see your working which i asked for yesterday.


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## Up the junction (Apr 9, 2015)

Right, the voice of authority: why are you asking me and not the former arcade tennants who also say 1/3?

Clown car it is: honk for even more attention.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Right, the voice of authority: why are you asking me and not the former arcade tennants who also say 1/3?
> 
> Clown car it is: honk for even more attention.


you made specific claims which i thought you could substantiate. it now seems you can't. what a pity.


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## David Clapson (Apr 9, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I'm not clear on the bascis; take what back, for whom, from whom?



The answer is obvious and I'm sure you're just pretending to be ignorant to get a rise out of people, but I'll take the bait anyway: the main thing to be taken back is rented housing. Rich tenants and homeowners, predominantly white professionals, have displaced poor tenants, who are mostly black working class with a goodly smattering of low income whites. But the issue is much more nuanced than that. Black homeowners have benefited from gentrification by selling up, a few black Porsche-driving property developers have benefited even more. That shouldn't obscure the fact that a larger number of black tenants have either been forced out or fear that they will be. I suspect these people will be the most aggrieved group attending the demo. But I doubt many of them will turn up as they tend to be cynical about the value of such things. I hope I'm proved wrong.

Debating which avenue in the Granville Arcade was empty is missing the point. There are still plenty of places selling cheap and/or ethnic goods, so nobody has been forced out by poor availability of groceries and fabrics and so on. Granville Arcade's relevance is that the new wave of eateries enabled by Spacemakers was the tipping point which attracted lots of young white readers of lifestyle articles to overcome their preconceptions of Brixton as a scary ghetto. The posh restaurants are symbolic of the problem, that's why they are vilified.  But getting rid of them would serve no purpose now that the genie is out of the bottle and white professionals have realised that Brixton is safe and only ten minutes from the West End. To turn the clock back now you'd need rioters to torch the tube station, the Police station and Foxtons for good measure. That's not going to happen. The Reclaim Brixton campaign will achieve nothing and the few people who turn up will be easily contained in the square. Anyone hoping for something on the scale of the G20 protest will be sadly disappointed.


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## Gramsci (Apr 9, 2015)

gabi said:


> Jesus, the NIMBYism going on here is fucking hilarious. How long do you have to have been in brixton to join this group?
> 
> Anyway, here's to Vic.



Please point out in my posts where I have been a nimby.

I was chatting to someone I know who is from a Council estate TRA tonight and mentioned the argument going on here. She said that this whole issue is dividing people. Her estate will be sending people down on the 25th. I have some posters now for the event.


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## Up the junction (Apr 9, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The answer is obvious and I'm sure you're just pretending to be ignorant to get a rise out of people, but I'll take the bait anyway: the main thing to be taken back is rented housing. Rich tenants and homeowners, predominantly white professionals, have displaced poor tenants, who are mostly black working class with a goodly smattering of low income whites. But the issue is much more nuanced than that. Black homeowners have benefited from gentrification by selling up, a few black Porsche-driving property developers have benefited even more. That shouldn't obscure the fact that a larger number of black tenants have either been forced out or fear that they will be. I suspect these people will be the most aggrieved group attending the demo. But I doubt many of them will turn up as they tend to be cynical about the value of such things. I hope I'm proved wrong.
> 
> Debating which avenue in the Granville Arcade was empty is missing the point. There are still plenty of places selling cheap and/or ethnic goods, so nobody has been forced out by poor availability of groceries and fabrics and so on. Granville Arcade's relevance is that the new wave of eateries enabled by Spacemakers was the tipping point which attracted lots of young white readers of lifestyle articles to overcome their preconceptions of Brixton as a scary ghetto. The posh restaurants are symbolic of the problem, that's why they are vilified.  But getting rid of them would serve no purpose now that the genie is out of the bottle and white professionals have realised that Brixton is safe and only ten minutes from the West End. To turn the clock back now you'd need rioters to torch the tube station, the Police station and Foxtons for good measure. That's not going to happen. The Reclaim Brixton campaign will achieve nothing and the few people who turn up will be easily contained in the square. Anyone hoping for something on the scale of the G20 protest will be sadly disappointed.


I don't think it's obvious, not least because you express a number of views each of which can be branch points to another conclusion.

Nor was I pretending to be ignorant, I wanted - still want - clarification of the goals: hardly controversial given they are actively courting support. What is it they want people to turn out for? You've crystalised a view, lets hope they do.

I broadly agree with the conclusions in your 2nd para - broad-based media promo made a significant contribution to what happened in the wake of Spacemakers involvement at the arcade.


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## Gramsci (Apr 9, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The answer is obvious and I'm sure you're just pretending to be ignorant to get a rise out of people, but I'll take the bait anyway: the main thing to be taken back is rented housing.
> 
> Debating which avenue in the Granville Arcade was empty is missing the point. There are still plenty of places selling cheap and/or ethnic goods, so nobody has been forced out by poor availability of groceries and fabrics and so on.



This thread has got sidetracked on the Brixton Village. The posts by memespring and
soupdragon explain what happened.

The issue that has angered a lot of people is the railway arches in Atlantic road and Brixton Station road. This has not been lost yet. I have not heard anyone yet saying they support Network Rail. Am I being a NIMBY for supporting the arches shopkeepers?

I know several shopkeepers in Brixton area who are worried that when their leases finish they will not be able to afford to stay here. So the shops outside Brixton Village and Market road are under threat in long term.

Housing in the number one issue across London. I was talking to a Black Brixton resident and he said it was his most important issue. Get rid of buy to let Landlords and build Council Housing. He was long time Labour party supporter. His view is that its been an issue ignored by mainstream politicians.


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## Gramsci (Apr 9, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> To turn the clock back now you'd need rioters to torch the tube station, the Police station and Foxtons for good measure. That's not going to happen. The Reclaim Brixton campaign will achieve nothing and the few people who turn up will be easily contained in the square. Anyone hoping for something on the scale of the G20 protest will be sadly disappointed.



This remains to be seen. "pessimism of the intellect optimism of the will" as my name sake would say.

Reclaim Brixton has got backing of resident groups. Also Lambeth Housing Activists with Unite Community. The 25th is supposed to be peaceful event on Windrush square that is a start rather than the end of Reclaim Brixton.

As for riots. Something I know about. Riots can work. The 81 riot/ uprising ( I prefer to use the word riot Rioting has long tradition in this country.) led to the Scarman enquiry. The problem of "inner cities" was taken seriously. What is surprising is that there have not been more public disturbances in this economic crisis across Europe.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> This thread has got sidetracked on the Brixton Village. The posts by memespring and
> soupdragon explain what happened.
> 
> The issue that has angered a lot of people is the railway arches in Atlantic road and Brixton Station road. This has not been lost yet. I have not heard anyone yet saying they support Network Rail. Am I being a NIMBY for supporting the arches shopkeepers?



I'd argue that part of the reason that the market problems didn't generate as much public anger is because they were and are somewhat more "out of sight and out of mind" that Atlantic Rd and Brixton Station Rd. The public are (very properly) having their noses rubbed in the situation with the arches, and the arches have also become somewhat of an up-to-date signifier for the broader gentrification issue, just as situations from Cooltan to Carlton Mansions have also been.   



> I know several shopkeepers in Brixton area who are worried that when their leases finish they will not be able to afford to stay here. So the shops outside Brixton Village and Market road are under threat in long term.
> 
> Housing in the number one issue across London. I was talking to a Black Brixton resident and he said it was his most important issue. Get rid of buy to let Landlords and build Council Housing. He was long time Labour party supporter. His view is that its been an issue ignored by mainstream politicians.



*Actively* ignored. Council housing is the only feasible method of mass-construction that will fill the "housing gap", but (as Thatcher and her coterie were well-aware) mass social housing encourages solidarities and community-spiritedness in a way (i.e. in an *unmanaged*, hard-to-manipulate way) that our neoliberal Parliamentarians absolutely loathe.


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## Gramsci (Apr 10, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd argue that part of the reason that the market problems didn't generate as much public anger is because they were and are somewhat more "out of sight and out of mind" that Atlantic Rd and Brixton Station Rd. The public are (very properly) having their noses rubbed in the situation with the arches, and the arches have also become somewhat of an up-to-date signifier for the broader gentrification issue, just as situations from Cooltan to Carlton Mansions have also been.



Agree with you about Council Housing.

The covered markets were also a big issue. The campaign to get them listed was in part to make sure they remained as markets not to end up as full of eateries for the well off. I know one of the main people behind getting it listed is upset at what has happened to the covered markets. Part of the listing was that  Brixton Village is part of Afro Carribean heritage.I was not even against Spacemakers to start with. Then when later on one says that its not what one wanted you are told you are a Nimby. I am someone who has tried to engage with Council over the years and accept  change. But all I have to show for it is to be evicted and see my community broken up. Change should be managed - not left up to the "market" or the over mighty state ( the Council). In fact the local State ( the Council) work with the "market" ( big business/ property developers) in practise.

I think people like me have not been "Nimby" enough. As with the "meanwhile" use of the ice rink site a lot of Brixton people will give new things the benefit of the doubt. Then it turns out to be not what they signed up to.

The same thing goes for the Brixton Central masterplan consultations. I encouraged the Brixton Rec Users group committee to go to the consultations and engage with the Council. Now it turns out it was all a sham and the Council new before Xmas that that Network Rail were going to evict the arches.

I notice gabi has not answered my question about where I am being a Nimby. Its not posters like me that are the problem on this section of U75.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 10, 2015)

We need to Reclaim this Board before we can hope to reclaim any part of Brixton because this Board gives an alternative voice that is largely unheard anywhere else. That's not hyperbole, that's how right wing the mainstream have become.

We, as a community, have made good progress in recent weeks, the right wing, self identifying, gentrifying, astroturfers have fallen silent; the Arches issue essentially killed them but they fucked up across the board (pun intended) and are looking kind of desperate.


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## gabi (Apr 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Agree with you about Council Housing.
> 
> The covered markets were also a big issue. The campaign to get them listed was in part to make sure they remained as markets not to end up as full of eateries for the well off. I know one of the main people behind getting it listed is upset at what has happened to the covered markets. Part of the listing was that  Brixton Village is part of Afro Carribean heritage.I was not even against Spacemakers to start with. Then when later on one says that its not what one wanted you are told you are a Nimby. I am someone who has tried to engage with Council over the years and accept  change. But all I have to show for it is to be evicted and see my community broken up. Change should be managed - not left up to the "market" or the over mighty state ( the Council). In fact the local State ( the Council) work with the "market" ( big business/ property developers) in practise.
> 
> ...



I haven't replied because I didnt see your post, apologies. I have a life outside of urban75.

Can you answer my question? Who exactly are you trying to 'Reclaim Brixton' from? What gives you the right to decide who is worthy and who isn't of living and running businesses here?

Who are you trying to reclaim Brixton from?


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## editor (Apr 10, 2015)

gabi said:


> What gives you the right to decide who is worthy and who isn't of living and running businesses here?


Exactly where has he made those claims?


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 10, 2015)

I didn't feel very welcome in most of Brixton 25/30 years ago - I feel much more comfortable and accepted now. I passionately want Brixton to remain a mixed community with lively market and nightlife.  But what do we want reclaim?  Brixton has never had just one community - but many, and it has changed over time. 

I feel the whole 'reclaim' idea is muddled. I think we can put pressure on Lambeth council about planning, policy, selling off land and buildings. We can support businesses and people.  All the rest is just arguing amongst ourselves.


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## uk benzo (Apr 11, 2015)

I don't think reclaim brixton is about kicking out anyone, it's about taking brixton out of the grips of rampant social cleansing, ie, out of the hands of corrupt councillors who collaborate with private mega profiteers dressed in sheep's clothing. 

It's all too easy to focus on sensational rhetoric and forget the gritty issues at hand. The council are scum and have fucked over everyone. Housing is fucked, social services fucked, brixton culture is getting fucked... All at the hands of the council who we pay tax to. 

So please stop all of this tedious shit that reclaim is about chasing out residents with pitch forks etc etc. It's boring and mildly distracting.


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## Up the junction (Apr 11, 2015)

People here are focused on Brixton but it’s nothing compared to, for example, parts of Peckham. Sydenham has just about gone. What’s rolling down the hill from Crystal Palace to Anerley and Penge is also pretty significant. West Norwood is inevitably next – not least because, outside parts of Catford, there is virtually nowhere else left.

Call it ‘gentrification’ or call it ‘a renaissance’; it’s here right now, folks, and it is now about ‘managing change’. Boroughs across south London have been grappling with that for a decade, sometimes well, sometimes not.

My point: The arguments about the contribution of media and Brixton Village are … a bit silly. This is at least as much about a city being reborn with hundreds of thousands of new immigrants, huge new infrastructure projects, new industries: I’m really not sure it helps the cause of Brixton to look only at Brixton.


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## BigMoaner (Apr 11, 2015)

west norwood is gone, too. gentrified to fuck.


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## 299 old timer (Apr 11, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> west norwood is gone, too. gentrified to fuck.



I can confirm West Norwood is in fact still there, I was down there earlier today doing my shopping. Certain parts by the station are getting a bit coffee shop ponceyfied though. Coffee is the main gentrifier....


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## David Clapson (Apr 11, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> As for riots. Something I know about. Riots can work. The 81 riot/ uprising ( I prefer to use the word riot Rioting has long tradition in this country.) led to the Scarman enquiry. The problem of "inner cities" was taken seriously. What is surprising is that there have not been more public disturbances in this economic crisis across Europe.



Couldn't agree more. People seem to have forgotten that a riot can form a valid part of the political process, so long as the rioters choose targets honestly and express a justifiable grievance. Many black people seem to have forgotten or not been taught about Scarman. They feel excluded from the political process. I suspect they believe that even when they riot their views are ignored by the establishment. Perhaps this partly explains why the Mark Duggan protest deteriorated into random looting and arson? Maybe the logic was "torching police cars won't achieve anything, so fuck it, we may as well have some free shoes."  The dispiriting thing about Reclaim Brixton is that some of it is framed as black vs white.  If it could be just rich vs poor we might get somewhere. It should be all about the poor discouraging the rich from buying in Brixton. (Driving out the rich who are already here would serve no purpose.) In my opinion the most effective way to stop the flow of rich buyers would be a massive protest with a unified rent reduction theme, and some direct action to take Brixton off the tube map. Property prices would plummet.


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## Up the junction (Apr 11, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> and some direct action to take Brixton off the tube map. Property prices would plummet.


LOL. Anyway, the converse of this is to add the erstwhile much wanted Overground station to East/Brixton - that'll add 10% to everything straight away. The Canary Wharf commuters have utterly transformed every stop on that line south of Surrey Quays.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> LOL. Anyway, the converse of this is to add the erstwhile much wanted Overground station to East/Brixton - that'll add 10% to everything straight away. The Canary Wharf commuters have utterly transformed every stop on that line south of Surrey Quays.


erstwhile doesn't mean what you think it does. a word to the wise: if you don't know what a word means, don't use it.


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## Up the junction (Apr 11, 2015)

What do I think it means?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> What do I think it means?


i don't suppose you've given the matter the consideration it deserves


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## Up the junction (Apr 11, 2015)

"can I see your working"


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## T & P (Apr 11, 2015)

I don't think focusing on (or even bringing up in the first place) the grammatical quality of a member's post is relevant to the discussion at hand, or particularly edifying for that matter. But points must be scored, I guess.


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## Gramsci (Apr 12, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> My point: The arguments about the contribution of media and Brixton Village are … a bit silly. This is at least as much about a city being reborn with hundreds of thousands of new immigrants, huge new infrastructure projects, new industries: I’m really not sure it helps the cause of Brixton to look only at Brixton.



There are moves to link up the struggles across London. The recent "Brick Lane Debates" in Brixton did this. I am around Soho a lot and the same thing is happening. There is a "Save Our Soho" campaign. 

The is Brixton forum so it focuses on Brixton.


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## Gramsci (Apr 12, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Couldn't agree more. People seem to have forgotten that a riot can form a valid part of the political process, so long as the rioters choose targets honestly and express a justifiable grievance. Many black people seem to have forgotten or not been taught about Scarman. They feel excluded from the political process. I suspect they believe that even when they riot their views are ignored by the establishment. Perhaps this partly explains why the Mark Duggan protest deteriorated into random looting and arson? Maybe the logic was "torching police cars won't achieve anything, so fuck it, we may as well have some free shoes."  The dispiriting thing about Reclaim Brixton is that some of it is framed as black vs white.  If it could be just rich vs poor we might get somewhere.



The earlier riots in Brixton also had a lot of looting and arson. At the time the first riot in Brixton in 81 was also in some quarters regarded in the same way as the recent riot in London.

Agree about the Black vs White. I think this is politically divisive. As you say its some not all of it. Reclaim Brixton from what I have seen of it is a broad based.


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## Gramsci (Apr 12, 2015)

gabi said:


> I haven't replied because I didnt see your post, apologies. I have a life outside of urban75.
> 
> Can you answer my question? Who exactly are you trying to 'Reclaim Brixton' from? What gives you the right to decide who is worthy and who isn't of living and running businesses here?
> 
> Who are you trying to reclaim Brixton from?



You still have not said where I am being a nimby in my posts. I think my previous posts here have covered a lot of the issues. 

The question that should be asked is why Network Rail , for example, has the "right" to turf out existing small business. 

I support Cressingham Gardens, The Guinness Trust AST and the shopkeepers in the Arches. This does not make me a nimby.


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## Gramsci (Apr 12, 2015)

Poster by Lambeth Housing Activists and Unite Community


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## editor (Apr 13, 2015)

Huge crowd at the meeting now.  And it's a far more mixed crowd this time around.


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## editor (Apr 13, 2015)

It's all pretty upbeat and positive too. Good meeting with loads of ideas.


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## editor (Apr 14, 2015)

gabi said:


> Can you answer my question? Who exactly are you trying to 'Reclaim Brixton' from? What gives you the right to decide who is worthy and who isn't of living and running businesses here?
> 
> Who are you trying to reclaim Brixton from?


Shame you couldn't be bothered to show up at the meeting to find out for yourself, really.


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## Up the junction (Apr 14, 2015)

It's the Illuminati, isn't it? 

No one expected the Brixton Illuminati!


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## editor (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> It's the Illuminati, isn't it?
> 
> No one expected the Brixton Illuminati!


What are you on about?


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## Up the junction (Apr 14, 2015)

We're trying to work out who you are saving Brixton from, and you seem a bit shy about saying.


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## editor (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> We're trying to work out who you are saving Brixton from, and you seem a bit shy about saying.


Where have I stated that I'm "saving" Brixton from anything?


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## Up the junction (Apr 14, 2015)

I feel like I'm try to talk to a stroppy teenager about whether they've done their homework.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> *We're *trying to work out who you are saving Brixton from, and you seem a bit shy about saying.



Who is we're?


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## Up the junction (Apr 14, 2015)

Why even ask? Is it important?

If it helps, on this page of this thread, gabi and myself.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 14, 2015)

Gabi isn't on this page.


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## editor (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I feel like I'm try to talk to a stroppy teenager about whether they've done their homework.


If you want a grown up conversation, try acting like one. Let's start with you backing up your bizarre assertion that I've claimed to be "saving" Brixton from something or another.


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## Up the junction (Apr 14, 2015)

Would you prefer "reclaiming", or do you not support the campaign?


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## editor (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Would you prefer "reclaiming", or do you not support the campaign?


Unlike you, I prefer to go long to the meetings and find out what is being proposed, rather than make up daft stuff on a bulletin board. The broad aims of the protest have been posted up several times already and I broadly support them (protecting social housing tenants and local businesses from eviction, calling for a halt to massive rent rises, protecting local services, forcing developers to give something back to the community they're exploiting etc etc).

If you're unwilling to read what's already been posted, then I can't be arsed to spoonfeed you the information you're to lazy to look up yourself, so your sneery 'points' are going to go unanswered. I've got better things to do with my time.


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## Up the junction (Apr 14, 2015)

editor said:


> Unlike you, I prefer to go long to the meetings and find out what is being proposed, rather than make up daft stuff on a bulletin board. The broad aims of the protest have been posted up several times already and I broadly support them .
> 
> If you're unwilling to read what's already been posted, then I can't be arsed to spoonfeed you the information you're to lazy to look up yourself, so your sneery 'points' are going to go unanswered. I've got better things to do with my time.


Can you please try to not talk about me and concentrate on the issue.

"(protecting social housing tenants and local businesses from eviction, calling for a halt to massive rent rises, protecting local services, forcing developers to give something back to the community they're exploiting etc etc)"

Okay. I won't ask you how they propose to do that because you have already said, in relation to your anti-immigrant stance on new businesses in Brixton, you don't know anything about business.


----------



## editor (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Okay. I won't ask you how they propose to do that because you have already said, in relation to your anti-immigrant stance on new businesses in Brixton, you don't know anything about business.


Ah, so you're here to troll and to try and disrupt the forum by making up silly lies and daft misrepresentations. Stop now, please.


----------



## Up the junction (Apr 14, 2015)

Well I can't say anymore because you've censored me in a private message but, as a point of fact,  you did say you don't want newcomers starting up businesses in Brixton - inc. that New Zealand woman.

I'll leave it at that.


----------



## editor (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Well I can't say anymore because you've censored me in a private message but, as a point of fact,  you did say you don't want newcomers starting up businesses in Brixton - inc. that New Zealand woman.
> 
> I'll leave it at that.


If you keep on disrupting this discussion with defamatory cross-thread nonsense about how I supposedly support an "anti-immigrant stance on new businesses in Brixton" you will be banned. So I would indeed leave it at that if I were you.


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Okay. I won't ask you how they propose to do that because you have already said, in relation to your anti-immigrant stance on new businesses in Brixton, you don't know anything about business.


Come on, argue with the guy all you want and disagree on everything but that's too far to accuse of anti-immigration when it's blatanly untrue.


----------



## editor (Apr 14, 2015)

I had to leave early last night, but one of the aims of the meeting was to draw up a list of demands to the council. I'll mail them now to ask if I can post them up on Buzz.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2015)

editor said:


> I had to leave early last night, but one of the aims of the meeting was to draw up a list of demands to the council. I'll mail them now to ask if I can post them up on Buzz.


"we have no demands to make of you. our banners read only: behold your future executioners"


----------



## editor (Apr 14, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> "we have no demands to make of you. our banners read only: behold your future executioners"



It wasn't quite as hardcore as that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> We're trying to work out who you are saving Brixton from, and you seem a bit shy about saying.



it's "Reclaim Brixton", cheesewit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I feel like I'm try to talk to a stroppy teenager about whether they've done their homework.



With language use like the above, you're not "try [sic] to talk", you're gibbering.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Why even ask? Is it important?
> 
> If it helps, on this page of this thread, gabi and myself.



Nice of you to speak for gabi. I'm sure he'll appreciate that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 14, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Gabi isn't on this page.



gabi is *never* on the same page as anyone else.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Well I can't say anymore because you've censored me in a private message but, as a point of fact,  you did say you don't want newcomers starting up businesses in Brixton - inc. that New Zealand woman.
> 
> I'll leave it at that.



Were you born a twat, or have you taken lessons?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 14, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Were you born a twat, or have you taken lessons?



Certainly evidence of a two day residential course having been attended.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Apr 14, 2015)

I haven't been able to make any of the meetings yet, but I do hope they pull together a clear manifesto. On social media at least the campaign has gained momentum, and it's interesting how (currently) a fairly broad premise has gained a lot of support, while other campaigns which directly target some of the main issues at the heart of gentrification (housing, closure of public services) have been less attended and discussed. I'm glad some of those campaigns intend to work together, hopefully a few of the thousands planning to attend Windrush Square will be exposed to and then lend their support to protests about Cressington Gardens, libraries closures, etc.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> We're trying to work out who you are saving Brixton from, and you seem a bit shy about saying.



I went to the meeting. First one I have been to.

I was impressed. At that meeting there were a lot of groups and individuals present. A lot was discussed.

Those present included:

The Network Rail shops, the market traders, Ritzy living wage, rep from the Latin American Community, Guinness Trust, Cressingham Gardens, Unite Community, Lambeth Housing Activists, London Black Revolutionaries, Left Unity, Save Our Libraries and Loughborough Estate (LETRA)

Also someone from Hackney who said they are having the same issues up there. They will send people down from Hackney on the day.

Also a cross section of Brixton. White and Black.

The meeting was chaired well by the Handson Sisters.

The surprise to me was the London Black Revs. A lot of them turned up. They are quite young and seems came out of the "Occupy" movement. They are quietly spoken and I was impressed. They have know gone around and talked to local business. There demo is going to be peaceful and will join up with Windrush Sq gathering.

A list of demands to Lambeth Council was agreed. Its not up on the FB page yet. I would rather wait until it is. Basically demands were around housing, stopping existing business like arches shop getting pushed put out, policing and protecting local culture.

The emphasis on the day will be to keep it peaceful. The various marches from the estates will aim to converge at the square at 12.

Cant say to much as this is open forum and anyone can see it. (ie the plod). The event is on FB and a lot of people have said they will come. There was legal adviser at meeting.

Windrush Square from 12 will be peaceful and family friendly. This was agreed by all. So it will be gathering of a cross section on Brixton.


----------



## editor (Apr 16, 2015)

More about the event here: 







Reclaim Brixton event on Sat 25th April – times, places and meet up points


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 16, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The surprise to me was the London Black Revs. A lot of them turned up. They are quite young and seems came out of the "Occupy" movement. They are quietly spoken and I was impressed. They have know gone around and talked to local business. There demo is going to be peaceful and will join up with Windrush Sq gathering.



Funnily enough they're being denounced on the massive Clapton Ultras bunfight in Politics as an example of the worst kind of divisive intersectionalist types. Not that I've had any contact with them to know either way but the difference in views is interesting.


----------



## editor (Apr 16, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Funnily enough they're being denounced on the massive Clapton Ultras bunfight in Politics as an example of the worst kind of divisive intersectionalist types. Not that I've had any contact with them to know either way but the difference in views is interesting.


I think the Clapton Ultras thread lives in its own particular universe.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Funnily enough they're being denounced on the massive Clapton Ultras bunfight in Politics as an example of the worst kind of divisive intersectionalist types. Not that I've had any contact with them to know either way but the difference in views is interesting.



Think that was more to do with a single member of LBR, who happens to control their social media input, going off on one, rather than the whole organisation being muppets.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2015)




----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2015)

Black revs have released a video:


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Funnily enough they're being denounced on the massive Clapton Ultras bunfight in Politics as an example of the worst kind of divisive intersectionalist types. Not that I've had any contact with them to know either way but the difference in views is interesting.



The most significant criticism was of the people who spat and threw bottles at SH on account of him being accused of DV, whilst, at the same time, continuing to work with LBR notwithstanding that group having a convicted rapist in its ranks!


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> The most significant criticism was of the people who spat and threw bottles at SH on account of him being accused of DV, whilst, at the same time, continuing to work with LBR notwithstanding that group having a convicted rapist in its ranks!


Can we please keep all the CU stuff in _that_ thread?


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

editor said:


> Can we please keep all the CU stuff in _that_ thread?



I didn't raise it; I just clarified.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 19, 2015)

This is not reclaim the streets Brixton for sure. It will be interesting to see if people have the balls to push out of the square, take and hold the junction. The village bit led by the London Black Rev is a bit of a sideshow (that I want to see and support with my big white being).


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2015)

editor said:


> Can we please keep all the CU stuff in _that_ thread?


the containment fields are weakening


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Were you born a twat, or have you taken lessons?


ah, the auld nature or nurture debate


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 19, 2015)

TopCat said:


> This is not reclaim the streets Brixton for sure. It will be interesting to see if people have the balls to push out of the square, take and hold the junction. The village bit led by the London Black Rev is a bit of a sideshow (that I want to see and support with my big white being).



No its not. Its a peaceful protest on Windrush square that is family friendly.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 19, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> No its not. Its a peaceful protest on Windrush square that is family friendly.


We shall see. You can't call an event like this and expect to control the attendees. Not unless you are a deluded middle class liberal with a huge sense of entitlement.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 19, 2015)

TopCat said:


> We shall see. You can't call an event like this and expect to control the attendees. Not unless you are a deluded middle class liberal with a huge sense of entitlement.



Ru saying I am deluded middle class liberal?


----------



## TopCat (Apr 19, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Ru saying I am deluded middle class liberal?


Did you call the demo?


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 19, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Did you call the demo?



No but I have volunteered to help out on the day.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 19, 2015)

Bigger cages longer chains!


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> The most significant criticism was of the people who spat and threw bottles at SH on account of him being accused of DV, whilst, at the same time, continuing to work with LBR notwithstanding that group having a convicted rapist in its ranks!



That rapist was thrown out of LBR last year.


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

poptyping said:


> That rapist was thrown out of LBR last year.



As per Editor's request, I'll not derail this thread with this topic.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> As per Editor's request, I'll not derail this thread with this topic.



Be great if you could not spread misinformation though


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

poptyping said:


> Be great if you could not spread misinformation though



I will continue to refrain from doing so.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> I didn't raise it; I just clarified.



What did you clarify that needed clarifying?


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> What did you clarify that needed clarifying?



The reason for the criticism on the other thread.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> The reason for the criticism on the other thread.



And that needed clarifyiing here in response to what?


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> And that needed clarifyiing here in response to what?



The post I quoted, which appeared (to me at least) not to accurately reflect the nature of the criticism on the other thread.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> The post i quoted, which appeared (to me at least) not to accurately reflect the nature of the criticism on the other thread.



I think you just enjoyed making a little bit of controversial noise.


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I think you just enjoyed making a little bit of controversial noise.



You think wrong.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> You think wrong.



From you that's a compliment.


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> From you that's a compliment.



Interesting that you should take it that way.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> Interesting that you should take it that way.



Why


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Why



Really?  Is it worth derailing this thread?  I don't think so.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> Really?  Is it worth derailing this thread?  I don't think so.



why


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> why



Cheerio.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> Cheerio.



ponce


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ponce


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


>



Why


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Why


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


>



why


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> why



Seriously, there's no point derailing this thread.  I'm off.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> Seriously, there's no point derailing this thread.  I'm off.



Good. Bye.


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Good. Bye.



Goodbye to you too.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> Goodbye to you too.



So you're not off?


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So you're not off?



Yeah, just leaving.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> Yeah, just leaving.



Good. Bye. Ponce.


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Good. Bye. Ponce.



Goodbye.  Athos.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> Goodbye.  Athos.



still here then.


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> still here then.



No, I'd gone.  But you quoting me brought me back.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> No, I'd gone.  But you quoting me brought me back.



why


----------



## Athos (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> why



Because you're such a great conversationalist.  But I'm afraid I really must go, now.  Night.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

Athos said:


> Because you're such a great conversationalist.  But I'm afraid I really must go, now.  Night.



Good. Bye.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2015)

Go get a room and bugger each other senseless, you pair of spunk-gibbons!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Go get a room and bugger each other senseless, you pair of spunk-gibbons!



why


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> why



Because you'll both enjoy it, and maybe he'll give your Hoover some extra lovin' !!!


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 19, 2015)

Great work Nanker Phelge


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 19, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because you'll both enjoy it, and maybe he'll give your Hoover some extra lovin' !!!



That hoover is very sensitive....don't you dare insult him!


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2015)

Jeez. This  protest is pretty important to some of the people that live in Brixton and I don't think the recent 'debate' here is doing it much justice.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 20, 2015)

Are you suggesting it is less important to me than it is to you?


----------



## shifting gears (Apr 20, 2015)

Fucking depressing last page.


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Are you suggesting it is less important to me than it is to you?


No. I'm suggesting that the issues are more fucking important than the playground crap you and Athos have been posting up. Please stop.


----------



## shifting gears (Apr 20, 2015)

Yeah give it a fucking rest, seriously.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 20, 2015)

editor said:


> No. I'm suggesting that the issues are more fucking important than the playground crap you and Athos have been posting up. Please stop.



You clearly did not see what I was doing then.

I never post in that way. It was for a reason.

I stand by it.

I achieved what I set out to do. You know me just about enough to know I don't engage in silly games.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 20, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> Yeah give it a fucking rest, seriously.



go fuck yourself....


----------



## shifting gears (Apr 20, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> go fuck yourself....



Sorry I must have missed your oh so clever point

Do forgive me.

Prick.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 20, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> Sorry I must have missed your oh so clever point
> 
> Do forgive me.
> 
> Prick.



try harder


----------



## shifting gears (Apr 20, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> try harder



Sorry it's just above me.

Sleep well though clever cunt.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Apr 20, 2015)

And so it begins again....
Can't you just ignore the name callers and stick to the topic?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2015)

it'll never be right till there's another baked potato place in brixton


----------



## Belushi (Apr 20, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it'll never be right till there's another baked potato place in brixton



It would be organic, artisan spuds costing £7 each


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2015)

Belushi said:


> It would be organic, artisan spuds costing £7 each


noooooo!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2015)

Belushi said:


> It would be organic, artisan spuds costing £7 each



Given what Network Rail are trying to do with the prices on the arches, you'd probably need to be charging £7 a spud just to be able to afford the rent.


----------



## Ms T (Apr 20, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it'll never be right till there's another baked potato place in brixton


There is - in the old Blacker Dredd's on Coldharbour Lane.


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2015)

Ms T said:


> There is - in the old Blacker Dredd's on Coldharbour Lane.


Which is defiantly " Still a record shop" too!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2015)

Ms T said:


> There is - in the old Blacker Dredd's on Coldharbour Lane.


but does it do ratatouille?


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 20, 2015)

Blacker Dread is due to be released soon.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> but does it do ratatouille?



Or sarsaparilla?


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 20, 2015)

There is a mobile baked potato guy who sets up every day on Brixton Station Road. £3 quid a pop I think. No ratatouille afaik.


----------



## madolesance (Apr 20, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> There is a mobile baked potato guy who sets up every day on Brixton Station Road. £3 quid a pop I think. No ratatouille afaik.



That's Grant who used to run 'El Panzon', that featured at many places around Brixton.Think his spud are good though.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 21, 2015)

So is what is happening?  is it just a few banners on Windrush sq? speeches (if so what time)? peaceful? family friendly? what sort of thing should I expect? I need to plan my shopping (and choose my outfit & hat obviously)

I foolishly read the last couple of pages of Nanker/ Athos pissing contest, so I'm non the wiser - hope that isn't an indication of the level of intellectual protest to expect.


----------



## editor (Apr 21, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> So is what is happening?  is it just a few banners on Windrush sq? speeches (if so what time)? peaceful? family friendly? what sort of thing should I expect? I need to plan my shopping (and choose my outfit & hat obviously)


There will be talks, banners, campaigning, stuff for kids, acoustic acts and more taking place in Windrush Square as well as a protest in Atlantic Road by the shopkeepers between noon and 2pm. 

Reclaim Brixton event on Sat 25th April – times, places and meet up points


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> So is what is happening?  is it just a few banners on Windrush sq? speeches (if so what time)? peaceful? family friendly? what sort of thing should I expect? I need to plan my shopping (and choose my outfit & hat obviously)
> 
> I foolishly read the last couple of pages of Nanker/ Athos pissing contest, so I'm non the wiser - hope that isn't an indication of the level of intellectual protest to expect.



It will be between 12 and 5 on Windrush. I know it say until 3 on some leaflets but it will be to 5.

Like editor said the debate here has not being doing the event justice.

It is difficult to say here what may happen in detail for legal reasons. This is open board anyone can look at. People have a right to assemble peacefully. In legal terms its just people meeting up on the square. Not an organised event.

What will happen on the day will also depend on the reaction of the police. I do not expect them to interfere in what happens on Windrush sq. According to the SLP last Friday the Met have say they have "appropriate policing plan on place"

Yes it will be family friendly. There will be measures to ensure this and peoples safety. Also peaceful. Its important to all concerned. As I said before to be accused of being middle class liberal.

This has gathered a lot of media interest. So its likely they will be around on Sat. Any trouble will get into papers but not the other side.

And the level of intellectual protest will be higher than here.

A lot could go right on Saturday or not. One thing that would help a lot is if people like you can turn up on the day as local concerned resident.

If I was you I would come earlier rather than later. It will be more than just banners and speeches. Hopefully it will be fun.

The marches from the estates should be there by 12am. If you wanted to join one of them you would be welcome. See Editors Brixton Buzz piece- #234


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> It will be between 12 and 5 on Windrush. I know it say until 3 on some leaflets but it will be to 5.
> 
> Like editor said the debate here has not being doing the event justice.
> 
> ...


what do you mean by intellectual protest?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> It will be between 12 and 5 on Windrush. I know it say until 3 on some leaflets but it will be to 5.
> 
> Like editor said the debate here has not being doing the event justice.
> 
> ...


btw 12am midnight 12pm midday


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 22, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> what do you mean by intellectual protest?



There is likely to be speakers at the demo.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 22, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> btw 12am midnight 12pm midday



Yes Midday 12pm to 5pm.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 22, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> There is likely to be speakers at the demo.


A big rig?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> There is likely to be speakers at the demo.


perhaps you could outline how this is intellectual protest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Yes Midday 12pm to 5pm.


so the marches won't be arriving at 12am as previously stated but instead at a more sociable 12pm.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 22, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you could outline how this is intellectual protest.


Hearts and minds, Pickers, hearts and minds.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Hearts and minds, Pickers, hearts and minds.


ime everyone protests at the speakers, who only tell them why they're there when everyone who turns out knows already why they're there.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 22, 2015)

It


David Clapson said:


> Blacker Dread is due to be released soon.


 always surprises me when people are so dim as to nick money and pay it into their own bank account.


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2015)

Reclaim Brixton banner appears on Walton Lodge luxury development in Coldharbour Lane


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 22, 2015)

Last time anyone used the word "reclaim" on a placa


TopCat said:


> It
> 
> always surprises me when people are so dim as to nick money and pay it into their own bank account.


He didn't nick it, somebody else did.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 22, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you could outline how this is intellectual protest.



I was replying to friendofdorothy comment 



> hope that isn't an indication of the level of intellectual protest to expect.



Not trying to be difficult but as I said for legal reasons cannot go into detail here.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 22, 2015)

TopCat said:


> A big rig?





I would not know myself. 

Best to go and see.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 22, 2015)

Yes - trying to get a big rig


----------



## TopCat (Apr 22, 2015)

See you all there.


----------



## Ms T (Apr 23, 2015)

I saw that Brindisa is supporting the demo by also closing both its shop and cafe between 12 and 2pm on Saturday "in solidarity with our neighbours". Pleasantly surprised by this.


----------



## han (Apr 23, 2015)

Of course, it's not about protecting their windows, oh no. [emoji12]


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2015)

Oooh. Walton Lodge is still occupied.


----------



## organicpanda (Apr 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Oooh. Walton Lodge is still occupied.


not for much longer by the looks of it


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> for legal reasons cannot go into detail here.



Every time Gramsci says this a Superintendent somewhere adds another van of riot police to the roster...


----------



## T & P (Apr 23, 2015)

han said:


> Of course, it's not about protecting their windows, oh no. [emoji12]


You could argue that many of the businesses closing down during the protest might also have had that in mind... If trouble were to flare up (which for the record I don't think it will), I doubt vandals would be very particular about which window to smash.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Apr 23, 2015)

Replacing a window is likely to be cheaper than the cost of closing and still paying staff, tbh. Unless you've got fucking MASSIVE windows.


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> not for much longer by the looks of it


They've been illegally evicted. One builder arrested. More later.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 23, 2015)

Why did they do that? Its obviously going to take Lexadon 5 years or so to get round to doing anything on the site.
Mr Knight was quite happy to let the Shoreditch Ladies and their hangers on have a free licence for 6 months at the Angel.


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2015)

Squatters attacked and one builder arrested as Walton Lodge in Brixton is evicted


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Replacing a window is likely to be cheaper than the cost of closing and still paying staff, tbh. Unless you've got fucking MASSIVE windows.


The PR fallout isn't so good though.


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2015)

Here's what an illegal eviction looks like:



http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/04/...n-lodge-building-on-coldharbour-lane-brixton/


Some testosterone-stuffed oaf tried to grab my camera off me earlier on. Lexadon are really showing their true colours here.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 23, 2015)

> After some confusion over whether the squat was legal (i.e. was it commercial or residential), the police decided that it was indeed residential after a representative for Lexadon insisted that a caretaker lived in the building.


 I'd like to know what the courts would have to say about that. If the police were wrong to classify the building as residential, what now? Can a court give squatters permission to reoccupy?


----------



## TopCat (Apr 23, 2015)

The police are currently very antsy because they have no contact details for any of the organisers nor an idea of what is going to happen.
They ARE reading this site with interest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Squatters attacked and one builder arrested as Walton Lodge in Brixton is evicted


i saw a similar (but sadly more effective) eviction in east finchley at the turn of the century, leaving two squatters with broken ankles when they jumped from a window to escape thugs sent by a landlord


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2015)

TopCat said:


> The police are currently very antsy because they have no contact details for any of the organisers nor an idea of what is going to happen.
> They ARE reading this site with interest.


in that case they'll know more about drugs and that but still be ignorant about the £30 and packed lunch

oops


----------



## TopCat (Apr 23, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> I'd like to know what the courts would have to say about that. If the police were wrong to classify the building as residential, what now? Can a court give squatters permission to reoccupy?


No


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 23, 2015)

TopCat said:


> The police are currently very antsy because they have no contact details for any of the organisers nor an idea of what is going to happen.
> They ARE reading this site with interest.
> They have been rather taken in by the London Black Rev so expect the Village to possibly be shut/evacuated or just full of pumped up cops.
> They will declare a major incident if the A23 gets taken over.
> Jolly japes.


The village and Market Row will be closed, no doubt about it. The Revs won't be able to do their walkthrough of the village, so they'll have to find some other focus for their discontent.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 23, 2015)

Surely closing the village achieves their goal. So job done.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The village and Market Row will be closed, no doubt about it. The Revs won't be able to do their walkthrough of the village, so they'll have to find some other focus for their discontent.


surely the rev rather than revs.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 23, 2015)

TopCat said:


> See you all there.



sorted...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> sorted...


i'll see your pitiful sound system and raise you this little gem from taiwan


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 23, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i'll see your pitiful sound system and raise you this little gem from taiwan



Can you get that to Brixton for Saturday?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Can you get that to Brixton for Saturday?


i'll do my best


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 23, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i'll do my best



get cracking.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> get cracking.


i've already emailed my contact in hsinchu


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The village and Market Row will be closed, no doubt about it. The Revs won't be able to do their walkthrough of the village, so they'll have to find some other focus for their discontent.


The market has told its traders that they will NOT be closing unless a health and safety risk occurs.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 23, 2015)

The market mgmt are clueless. £5 says the police will strongly advise closure.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 23, 2015)

Was it Black Revs squatting the laundry?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 23, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i've already emailed my contact in hsinchu



Can we get one without the daft trees painted on it. We're not hippies. We're urban.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Can we get one without the daft trees painted on it. We're not hippies. We're urban.


you'll get what you're dam' well given and you'll bloody well like it


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 23, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you'll get what you're dam' well given and you'll bloody well like it



Nazi.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Nazi.


if you don't want a wall of speakers loud enough to be heard 30 miles away i won't bother, simple as.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 23, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> if you don't want a wall of speakers loud enough to be heard 30 miles away i won't bother, simple as.



Please yourself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Please yourself.


i will, mein fuhrer.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The village and Market Row will be closed, no doubt about it. The Revs won't be able to do their walkthrough of the village, so they'll have to find some other focus for their discontent.



The information I got tonight is that the markets will be open.


----------



## Up the junction (Apr 23, 2015)

For those unfamiliar with Rev


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2015)

TopCat said:


> See you all there.



Hopefully see u there. 

I am helping out as steward/ litter collection.

If anyone wants to help out on the day doing an hour of stewarding that would be welcome. Its just to be there if there are any problems. 

Hopefully the weather will hold out. If it does you will not be disappointed. There will be a lot on. Plan is it will be friendly carnival atmosphere on the square.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Here's what an illegal eviction looks like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Its hardly good PR for Lexadon.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Why did they do that? Its obviously going to take Lexadon 5 years or so to get round to doing anything on the site.
> Mr Knight was quite happy to let the Shoreditch Ladies and their hangers on have a free licence for 6 months at the Angel.



Because he is an unpleasant property developer who takes umbrage at a group of lefties taking "his" building back for the community for a few days.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 24, 2015)

UPDATE!!

So much has been happening, all positive mainly. We've all been busy with this- the contributions have been overwhelming!

The last minute final meeting was small due to the short notice BUT a few things were done, which is included below.

(Names of volunteers have not been included)

The BCA

We have some great news! the Black Cultural Archives - a space created on the back of campaign and protest wants to assist!
( BCA= a good example of regeneration!)

They will also be creating a live archive to document visitors on the day regarding Reclaim Brixton which is fantastic! Finalising this as we speak.

FORECAST
Forecast of rain is likely so be prepared, looking for a gazebo or two to protect some sound equipment.
A waterproof cable cover SHOULD be delivered today for Health & Safety.

SOUND 
-A quality member of the public has donated a healthy kit.
-A second quality member of the public has donated funds for transport- still sorting 
- 2 Brixton venues are providing some mics and channel mixer and DJ PA.
-We have a dedicated sound engineer for the day.
-We have two dedicated stage hosts
-We have a volunteered police liason regarding the sound to avoid seizure/noise issues

STAGE
Line up to be finalised but generally performance on the day via stage outside BCA and under the tree include:

UNITED VIBRATIONS
LOS HERMANOS ARIAS(Cuban folk)
RHYTHMS OF RESISTANCE
ALABAMA 3 (acoustic set)
SKILLOSOPHI (reggae)
THE FLOACIST PRESENTS FLOW (spoken word)
OUR BRIXTON 45 min takeover
TAWIAH 
IVORY COAST/ PAN AFRICAN DRUMMERS
MARACUTI DRUMMERS
STEEL DRUMMERS ( Brixton station crew)

***As this is not an organised festival etc, this is all subject to change. It's a simple vibe with a lot of fantastic people contributing***

Schedule and contacts have been provided to Steward head.

STEWARDING 
Provision of hi vis of up to 50 should be available today

We have approx 30 stewards currently signed up to assist the event, some are first aiders.

REFUSE COLLECTION POINT
Lambeth refuse collection have been contacted and provided rolls of bags and happily agreed to creating collection point near phone boxes outside KFC.

Let's be all conscious of this!

MEET UP POINTS:
All walking in solidarity to the square.

11am from Guinness Trust AST Tenants 
11am from Save Cressingham Gardens 
11.30 from Myatts Field North Community Centre
11.30am Loughborough Centre ( anti road closure)- meet outside Brixton tube to walk through Brixton Village before attending square 
11.30am London Black Revs meeting at Brixton tube walking through Brixton Village

There will also be tenants from Dorchester Court, Leigham Court Sheltered Housing, Central Hill estate and other local groups aiming to arrive for midday.

Brixton Rec Brixton Rec User Group (Brug) will be linking hands in solidarity from midday

Save Brixton Arches
Traders will shut their shops from midday -2pm and walk to the square in solidarity between midday and 12.30
SBA will hold interactive community art back at the arches after 12.30 onwards.

CHILDRENS AREA- ST MATTHEWS
A number of volunteers have said that they will provide bead making, face painting. Awaiting confirmation....

OPEN TO THE PUBLIC DEMANDS
We are hoping to arrange large sheets for the public to add their demands on the day to be placed on the Town Hall by the close of events..

PRESS
Reclaim has spoken to The Guardian, SW Londoner and represented on London Live in an hour discussion regarding Gentrification this week.

Supposed to be sending Brixton Blog something today hopefully regarding the Instagram 'why I love Brixton' accounts.

CHANGE.ORG petition 
A petition calling for the resignation of key planning Lambeth councillors was set up by a concerned citizen.
We know that this was suggested earlier this month regarding exposing councillors and property developers...

PHOTOGRAPHERS
A general call out for photographers and video makers was given, we would urge anyone to upload POSITIVE pics/ vids with the hashtag ‪#‎reclaimbrixton‬

NIGHT MARKET ON THE SQUARE
We have it on good authority that at least three food vendors are highly supportive of the event.

They will need to get to the square to set up, we will offer stewarding to ensure their safe set up.

(And most importantly,KEY DEMANDS agreed on meeting 3 to be published before event!!)

Thanks for reading!


----------



## Up the junction (Apr 24, 2015)

Does it need a license?

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/leisure-p...eth-events/apply-for-a-temporary-event-notice


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Does it need a license?
> 
> http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/leisure-p...eth-events/apply-for-a-temporary-event-notice


No. It's a spontaneous happening in a public space.


----------



## Up the junction (Apr 24, 2015)

Call it what you want. You can even call it an illegal eviction if you want. It doesn't matter.

I remember that spontaneous band - brass section, etc - a few years ago, outside the Ritzy. Loads of publicity, maybe something to go with the market or the Ritzy ... cancelled at the last minute and people went to the pub.

It's a shame for the cost of £21.00. Invites another shambles.


----------



## han (Apr 24, 2015)

Critical Mass has been going for over 20 years, spontaneously, and has successfully avoided being a shambles. I don't see why it should be a shambles.


----------



## Up the junction (Apr 24, 2015)

It's a cycle ride, on cycles.


----------



## han (Apr 24, 2015)

Er, yes. Which should make it more shamble-prone!


----------



## han (Apr 24, 2015)

The less planned these spontaneous gatherings are, the more fun (and successful) they are, I find.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Call it what you want. You can even call it an illegal eviction if you want. It doesn't matter.
> 
> I remember that spontaneous band - brass section, etc - a few years ago, outside the Ritzy. Loads of publicity, maybe something to go with the market or the Ritzy ... cancelled at the last minute and people went to the pub.
> 
> It's a shame for the cost of £21.00. Invites another shambles.


What's costing £21 here?


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

han said:


> The less planned these spontaneous gatherings are, the more fun (and successful) they are, I find.


It seems that some people only like their entertainment if it's nice and orderly and council approved.


----------



## Up the junction (Apr 24, 2015)

I'm not looking for an argument. I can't be the only one to see exactly this scenario before n Brixton; a lot of organisation, a lot of goodwill, and no one thought about the basic licensing. 

Who's electricity are the sound system using?


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I'm not looking for an argument. I can't be the only one to see exactly this scenario before n Brixton; a lot of organisation, a lot of goodwill, and no one thought about the basic licensing.
> 
> Who's electricity are the sound system using?


Already sorted, thanks.  Why does it concern you?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 24, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Who's electricity are the sound system using?



Not yours...so dont fret about it


----------



## Black Activist (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> It's still in its infancy, but there's good things happening here, and everyone is invited to get involved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





editor said:


> It's still in its infancy, but there's good things happening here, and everyone is invited to get involved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


... Reclaiming Brixton can be done the easy,,, or the HARD WAY!!
People only seem to learn the Hard Way!


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Apr 24, 2015)

Market management confirmed Village is staying open, after consultation with police. As a result Champange and Vomage are boarding up their windows and thus making a laughing stock of themselves.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Market management confirmed Village is staying open, after consultation with police. As a result Champange and Vomage are boarding up their windows and thus making a laughing stock of themselves.


That's like them announcing: "Yes we are not part of the Brixton community".


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> That's like them announcing: "Yes we are not part of the Brixton community".


i suppose they're known locally as champagne and vomit


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I'm not looking for an argument. I can't be the only one to see exactly this scenario before n Brixton; a lot of organisation, a lot of goodwill, and no one thought about the basic licensing.
> 
> Who's electricity are the sound system using?


very kind of you to offer.


----------



## T & P (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> That's like them announcing: "Yes we are not part of the Brixton community".


Frankly, given the enormous amount of attention and pantomime villain status C&F has been given from the off by many on these boards, on Facebook and elsewhere (some of the comments on a Facebook page being nothing short of disgraceful, if we're honest), I cannot blame them one bit for being extra cautious about tomorrow. And to try to turn that into yet another dig at them and alleged further confirmation that they're not part of the community is simply astonishing, IMO.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> That's like them announcing: "Yes we are not part of the Brixton community".



Or, throw bricks at us, we're ready!


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

T & P said:


> Frankly, given the enormous amount of attention and pantomime villain status C&F has been given from the off by many on these boards, on Facebook and elsewhere (some of the comments on a Facebook page being nothing short of disgraceful, if we're honest), I cannot blame them one bit for being extra cautious about tomorrow. And to try to turn that into yet another dig at them and alleged further confirmation that they're not part of the community is simply astonishing, IMO.


Do you really think that? Instead of barricading themselves in, imagine if they'd done something really radical and reached out to the community during the time they've been here. You know, simple things like supporting local campaigns, offering cut price OAP evenings and cut price deals for residents of the estate that overlooks them, or perhaps donating to the Soup Kitchen which opened up at the same time.

Instead, they seem to prefer to live in their little bubble of luxury, so I'm not surprised they now feel alienated by the community that surrounds them. I have zero sympathy for their plight.


----------



## T & P (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> Do you really think that? Instead of barricading themselves in, imagine if they'd done something really radical and reached out to the community during the time they've been here. You know, simple things like supporting local campaigns, offering cut price OAP evenings and cut price deals for residents of the estate that overlooks them, or perhaps donating to the Soup Kitchen which opened up at the same time.
> 
> Instead, they seem to prefer to live in their little bubble of luxury, so I'm not surprised they now feel alienated by the community that surrounds them. I have zero sympathy for their plight.


I don't think fearing property damage during a planned protest scheduled to go past their front door has anything to do with being alienated by the community. I suspect a myriad of businesses in Brixton, both old and 'nu', many of them much loved by those protesting tomorrow, have not reached out to the community in the ways you suggest anymore than C&F has. But even if they have not done so, it certainly does not justify anyone putting their windows through.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

T & P said:


> I don't think fearing property damage during a planned protest scheduled to go past their front door has anything to do with being alienated by the community. I suspect a myriad of businesses in Brixton, both old and 'nu', many of them much loved by those protesting tomorrow, have not reached out to the community in the ways you suggest anymore than C&F has. But even if they have not done so, it certainly does not justify anyone putting their windows through.


At no point have I tried to justify such an action and - notably - at no point has anyone suggested putting in their windows, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2015)

Black Activist said:


> ... Reclaiming Brixton can be done the easy,,, or the HARD WAY!!
> People only seem to learn the Hard Way!



It's not "people" who fail to learn the hard way, it's the self-serving tossers that govern us.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i suppose they're known locally as champagne and vomit



Champagne & Frottage.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 24, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I'm not looking for an argument.



Ya big liar


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 24, 2015)

ShamVain & FromArse.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> What's costing £21 here?



Our hearts and minds


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

Just in case the cops get over excited:
Reclaim Brixton: important legal information on your rights


----------



## T & P (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> At no point have I tried to justify such an action and - notably - at no point has anyone suggested putting in their windows, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.


Well, not to dwell on it anymore than it deserves, but it all started when it was announced a few posts above that after consultation with the police, Brixton Village would remain open and C&F would be boarding its windows, which then attracted instant scornful comments that were unjustified and wide of the mark IMO. So while I agree 100% and am happy to make it perfectly clear that no one here has suggested committing any illegal acts, I don't think C&F can be much to blame for having genuine concerns and taking precautions in that respect (which might even have been on police advice).

For the record I don't care one bit for C&F, and I am extremely unlikely to ever visit the place, let alone spend my money there. But I find its vilification at every given opportunity as much of a complete waste of time and energy as actually counterproductive to the very cause Reclaim Brixton is fighting for.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

T & P said:


> For the record I don't care one bit for C&F, and I am extremely unlikely to ever visit the place, let alone spend my money there. But I find its vilification at every given opportunity as much of a complete waste of time and energy as actually counterproductive to the very cause Reclaim Brixton is fighting for.


I think you're wildly exaggerating this supposed "vilification at every given opportunity" but if they think they're so divorced from the local community that they have to shut up shop while other businesses stay open during a Brixton event, then that's _their_ problem, not anyone else's.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> Ya big liar


to be fair s/he's not lying as s/he doesn't have to look for an argument, does s/he?


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> they have to shut up shop while other businesses stay open during a Brixton event



It's not just the family friendly jamboree in the square, it's the march through BV by the Revs. I don't blame a champagne bar for feeling threatened by that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> It's not just the family friendly jamboree in the square, it's the march through BV by the Revs. I don't blame a champagne bar for feeling threatened by that.


well the easiest way to deal with it would be for them to present themselves in a good light, perhaps by handing snifters of prosecco


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> It's not just the family friendly jamboree in the square, it's the march through BV by the Revs. I don't blame a champagne bar for feeling threatened by that.


Could you point me in the direction of anything resembling a threat to Fromage that has been published by the Black Revs? Thanks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> Could you point me in the direction of anything resembling a threat to Fromage that has been published by the Black Revs? Thanks.


apparently someone's threatened to throw a half brie through their window.


----------



## gaijingirl (Apr 24, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> apparently someone's threatened to throw a half brie through their window.


----------



## gaijingirl (Apr 24, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> apparently someone's threatened to throw a half brie through their window.



I hope they've thought that through caerphilly!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2015)

gaijingirl said:


> I hope they've thought that through caerphilly!


it's merlot a rumour at the moment tho


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> Could you point me in the direction of anything resembling a threat to Fromage that has been published by the Black Revs? Thanks.



What planet are you on?? Just the name of the group is threatening to rich whites.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 24, 2015)

oh the horror!


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> What planet are you on?? Just the name of the group is threatening to rich whites.


Please feel free to expand on this fascinating theory. Please! I insist!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> What planet are you on?? Just the name of the group is threatening to rich whites.


you seem to have all the spine of a blancmange if you think that


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> Please feel free to expand on this fascinating theory. Please! I insist!


So you want the whole history of race relations in a post?  Do stop trolling your own board.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> So you want the whole history of race relations in a post?  Do stop trolling your own board.


i'd just like you to expand on your point rather than raise a different issue.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> So you want the whole history of race relations in a post?  Do stop trolling your own board.


I want you to explain why the words "Black Revs" in Brixton is " threatening to rich whites."

Do you actually know what the Black Revs are, by the way? Or is just the words that you find so threatening? And if so, why?


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> I want you to explain why the words "Black Revs" in Brixton is " threatening to rich whites."
> 
> Do you actually know what the Black Revs are, by the way? Or is just the words that you find so threatening? And if so, why?



What is your problem? Do you have zero imagination? You are pretending that the word 'revolutionaries' denotes peace and love. That's moronic. 

The Revs I've met seem like sensible people who won't bring a guillotine and I'm happy to help them. But if you organise a march of London Black Revolutionaries to take back the market you'd be very naive to think that only sensible people will show up.


----------



## T & P (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> I think you're wildly exaggerating this supposed "vilification at every given opportunity" but if they think they're so divorced from the local community that they have to shut up shop while other businesses stay open during a Brixton event, then that's _their_ problem, not anyone else's.


 When the 'event' in question is a protest, and when C&F have de facto been elected as one of the chief poster boys of gentrification in Brixton by a number of people who will be likely to attend said protest, boarding up their windows has not so much to do with being divorced from the local community as taking precautions against acts of vandalism that might or might not happen.

I don't feel sorry or aggravated that they have to put boards up, but trying to pass off such move as some kind of contemptuous act towards 'the local community' seems bizarre to say the least.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2015)

T & P said:


> When the 'event' in question is a protest, and when C&F have de facto been elected as one of the chief poster boys of gentrification in Brixton by a number of people who will be likely to attend said protest, boarding up their windows has not so much to do with being divorced from the local community as taking precautions against acts of vandalism that might or might not happen.
> 
> I don't feel sorry or aggravated that they have to put boards up, but trying to pass off such move as some kind of contemptuous act towards 'the local community' seems bizarre to say the least.


their most contemptuous act imo opening  in the first place.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> What is your problem? Do you have zero imagination? You are pretending that the word 'revolutionaries' denotes peace and love. That's moronic.
> 
> The Revs I've met seem like sensible people who won't bring a guillotine and I'm happy to help them. But if you organise a march of London Black Revolutionaries to take back the market you'd be very naive to think that only sensible people will show up.


i suspect the cops will be there too


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 24, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> What is your problem? Do you have zero imagination? You are pretending that the word 'revolutionaries' denotes peace and love. That's moronic.
> 
> The Revs I've met seem like sensible people who won't bring a guillotine and I'm happy to help them. But if you organise a march of London Black Revolutionaries to take back the market you'd be very naive to think that only sensible people will show up.



You are one of the great, accidental comedians of our generation; almost a philosopher king.


----------



## alfajobrob (Apr 24, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> You are one of the great, accidental comedians of our generation; almost a philosopher king.



Pot, kettle, bollocks


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 24, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> You are one of the great, accidental comedians of our generation; almost a philosopher king.



Hi Dexter. Hope to see u tomorrow. If you want to join up with one of the marches from the estates I am sure you would be welcome.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 24, 2015)

I will be at Windrush Square at 10 am tomorrow. Hope weather holds out and it all goes well.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 24, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Hi Dexter. Hope to see u tomorrow. If you want to join up with one of the marches from the estates I am sure you would be welcome.


He would.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 24, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Hi Dexter. Hope to see u tomorrow. If you want to join up with one the marches from the estates I am sure you would be welcome.



I will be there, probably just early on as I have priors elsewhere; however i think this is so important that it is worth shunting other engagements to the sidings.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 24, 2015)

As Nanker Phelge has said Brixton Cultural Archives in last few days have come aboard Reclaim Brixton. This is to there credit. And they deserve thanks for this. I think they were concerned they might upset the Council ( who give them grant).

What I have heard is that some Labour Cllrs now think that the Labour administration should engage with Reclaim Brixton.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

Good piece in the Guardian: 


> The gentrification of Brixton unites an eclectic group of protesters
> The commercial rent and housing problems here in Lambeth are actually the story of London: no one can afford it any more
> "There’s a feeling in the air... that this protest will unleash something that, once it’s out, will be difficult to get back in its box".
> http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...rixton-unites-an-eclectic-group-of-protesters


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

T & P said:


> When the 'event' in question is a protest, and when C&F have de facto been elected as one of the chief poster boys of gentrification in Brixton by a number of people who will be likely to attend said protest


Who are these people? Where has this happened?


----------



## Greebo (Apr 24, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> <snip> What I have heard is that some Labour Cllrs now think that the Labour administration should engage with Reclaim Brixton.


In the long run, it would be a good idea for the entire council to engage with Reclaim Brixton.  And by "engage with" I mean "listen to and try to work with"  not "talk at, wear down, and soften up".


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> What is your problem? Do you have zero imagination? You are pretending that the word 'revolutionaries' denotes peace and love. That's moronic.
> 
> The Revs I've met seem like sensible people who won't bring a guillotine and I'm happy to help them. But if you organise a march of London Black Revolutionaries to take back the market you'd be very naive to think that only sensible people will show up.


So you'll have no problem cataloguing a list of violent actions recently undertaken by the Black Revs, yes?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> Good piece in the Guardian:


if you leave a load of journalists with computers for a few years it's likely they'll come up with a couple of reasonable articles


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 24, 2015)

Lastest from the shop in arches:

Save Brixton Arches can now confirm that these are our times for tomorrow's Reclaim Brixton event. Please help spread the word and we hope to see you all there!

12-12:30: shutting shops & gathering with banners on Altantic Rd
12:30-1:00: march to square
1:00-4:00: Live interactive art at arches, petitions, meet the traders
3:00-5:00: Join other campaigners and take signatures to council

The linking arms around the shops will take place between 12-12.30. All welcome


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 24, 2015)

Guiness Trust residents who will be marching tomorrow morning are blockading the estate. They are under threat of eviction I was there this morning. If anyone wants to support them on Sat they could join up with there march starting at 11am from the estate. 

Some photos from this morning:


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 24, 2015)

Greebo said:


> In the long run, it would be a good idea for the entire council to engage with Reclaim Brixton.  And by "engage with" I mean "listen to and try to work with"  not "talk at, wear down, and soften up".



Good point.

What irritates me is that the Labour Group wait to see which way the wind is blowing. Now Reclaim Brixton has received a lot of media coverage and more importantly united a mix bunch of Brixtonians they are as I was told are "putting feelers out".

Typical New Labour.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> ...FromArse.



I've tasted a few cheeses like that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> It's not just the family friendly jamboree in the square, it's the march through BV by the Revs. I don't blame a champagne bar for feeling threatened by that.



London Black Revolutionaries is a small group of loosely-aligned revos with a fairly loose set of principles. To feel "threatened" by them speaks to me of a rather stereotyped attitude to black people engaging in politics by C& F.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 24, 2015)

T & P said:


> Frankly, given the enormous amount of attention and pantomime villain status C&F has been given from the off by many on these boards, on Facebook and elsewhere (some of the comments on a Facebook page being nothing short of disgraceful, if we're honest), I cannot blame them one bit for being extra cautious about tomorrow. And to try to turn that into yet another dig at them and alleged further confirmation that they're not part of the community is simply astonishing, IMO.



And not just on social media.

C&F and the wine shop on Atlantic road are resented by some Brixton residents and other shopkeepers who I talk to. At no prompting from me.

These two business symbolize what some do not like about recent changes to Brixton.

You might not like that but its view I come across often.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> And not just on social media.
> 
> C&F and the wine shop on Atlantic road are resented by some Brixton residents and other shopkeepers who I talk to. At no prompting from me.


I certainly know loads of people - of all ages and backgrounds - who hate what they are and what they represent. And I'm not the only one to notice the lack of community engagement from C&F.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> What planet are you on?? Just the name of the group is threatening to rich whites.



Which speaks loudly of the attitudes of such people, but doesn't speak very loudly about who and what LBR *actually* are.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> What is your problem? Do you have zero imagination? You are pretending that the word 'revolutionaries' denotes peace and love. That's moronic.
> 
> The Revs I've met seem like sensible people who won't bring a guillotine and I'm happy to help them. But if you organise a march of London Black Revolutionaries to take back the market you'd be very naive to think that only sensible people will show up.



It's not a march of "London Black Revolutionaries", it's a march by a political organisation called "London Black Revolutionaries" which has about as many core members as the London Anarchist Federation. If anyone is ignorant or stupid enough to take that as threatening, they'd probably better stay away from the NH Carnival and the Southhall Diwali festivals too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> As Nanker Phelge has said Brixton Cultural Archives in last few days have come aboard Reclaim Brixton. This is to there credit. And they deserve thanks for this. I think they were concerned they might upset the Council ( who give them grant).
> 
> What I have heard is that some Labour Cllrs now think that the Labour administration should engage with Reclaim Brixton.



They're pretty much soiling their underwear that such a volume of protest could be pulled together in such a short time, and trying to work out how to a) use it, and b) neutralise any power the movement gains. It's not just the Swappies who do entryism, and some of the councillors in wards with estates slated for "regeneration" are starting to worry that their safe ward seats may not be so safe anymore.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2015)

Oh I've definitely heard that Lambeth are now wanting to engage with Reclaim Brixton. It was easy when they were picking off isolated groups but now they're all getting together - and piecing together the ugliness of what our co operative council is up to - they're shitting bricks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Good point.
> 
> What irritates me is that the Labour Group wait to see which way the wind is blowing. Now Reclaim Brixton has received a lot of media coverage and more importantly united a mix bunch of Brixtonians they are as I was told are "putting feelers out".
> 
> Typical New Labour.



Yep, and they'll expect us to listen, too.
Apparently Chuckie Ummuna has been fulminating about Streatham Greens, and how they're "behind" Save Cressingham Gardens, which would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.Bartley & co only got involved for the first time at "Housing Question Time", when Save Cressingham Gardens had already been around for more than a year. Good old Labour, same old smearing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2015)

editor said:


> Oh I've definitely heard that Lambeth are now wanting to engage with Reclaim Brixton. It was easy when they were picking off isolated groups but now they're all getting together - and piecing together the ugliness of what our co operative council is up to - they're shitting bricks.



They know that if tomorrow can be built on, it raises a lot of inconvenient questions about decisions that have been made, and the justifications for them. Stuff that might reflect badly on councillors, and even former councillors like Smilin' Steve Reed MP, or Pete Robbins. It's quite edifying, seeing local councillors trying to disassociate themselves from Cabinet decisions - like an adult version of "it wasn't me, a big boy did it then ran away!" - and with Brixton Buzz pumping out substantive stories every day detailing the truth behind the "co-operative" lies, it's harder for Lambeth Labour to use the usual smoke and mirrors to obfuscate anyone trying to dig beneath the veneer.


----------



## ffsear (Apr 25, 2015)

This battle was lost years ago!   Move on


Do you people realise that half of clapham are gonna turn up to whitness the "vibrant edgyness"  It's all to ironic for me

Anyone protesting about the rise in payday loan out lets and cash for gold shops that we have seen pop up everywhere over the last few years ???


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Apr 25, 2015)

Alright, goodnight Brixton, sleep tight and get some rest ready for your dancing shoes tomorrow! Be safe, look after each other. See you all there!


----------



## ffsear (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Do you really think that? Instead of barricading themselves in, imagine if they'd done something really radical and reached out to the community during the time they've been here. You know, simple things like supporting local campaigns, offering cut price OAP evenings and cut price deals for residents of the estate that overlooks them, or perhaps donating to the Soup Kitchen which opened up at the same time.
> 
> Instead, they seem to prefer to live in their little bubble of luxury, so I'm not surprised they now feel alienated by the community that surrounds them. I have zero sympathy for their plight.




We'll they wernt exactly given a chance.  The protests against them where organised weeks before they even opened.

Now they don't so enough to supports those who never game them a chance ?

Plus,  it's probably their insurers telling them to close for the day and Board up the windows


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Apr 25, 2015)

ffsear said:


> We'll they wernt exactly given a chance.  The protests against them where organised weeks before they even opened.


It's never too late to do something nice.


----------



## paolo (Apr 25, 2015)

On the basis that people moving into an area ruin it, I'll be protesting against myself tomorrow. I'll start nice, maybe dress up a bit - do a bit of DJing, run a live blog - then later give myself a smack, then do my windows. That'll teach me.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

ffsear said:


> We'll they wernt exactly given a chance.  The protests against them where organised weeks before they even opened.


They had every fucking chance to get involved in the community after they opened.  But they did nothing.

They've been here long enough to know what Brixton means to a lot of people , but they prefer to live in their luxury tourist-attracting bubble. So if they don't give a fuck about the local community, why should anyone give a fuck about these Johnny-come-lately, £10 a glass-of-bubbly, cash-in merchants?


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

paolo said:


> On the basis that people moving into an area ruin it


I don't recall anyone proposing that argument.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Do you people realise that half of clapham are gonna turn up to whitness the "vibrant edgyness"  It's all to ironic for me


Are they really? Probably best that people just roll over and accept the evictions in your world, eh? No need to make a fuss!


----------



## TopCat (Apr 25, 2015)

I hope you went straight to bed after that post Editor or you will be knackered!


----------



## TopCat (Apr 25, 2015)

I had better get my arse out of bed.


----------



## Mation (Apr 25, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> apparently someone's threatened to throw a half brie through their window.


If that put the window in they could only have champagne glass. No wonder they want go board them up!


----------



## 299 old timer (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Oh I've definitely heard that Lambeth are now wanting to engage with Reclaim Brixton. It was easy when they were picking off isolated groups but now they're all getting together - and piecing together the ugliness of what our co operative council is up to - they're shitting bricks.



Source?


----------



## han (Apr 25, 2015)

And just think, if everyone who goes to the demo votes Green. Could we kick the corrupt Labour council out? Yes, we could!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

ffsear said:


> This battle was lost years ago!   Move on



Easy to say if it's not affecting *you*. Not so easy to do if you're in the middle of it.
Me, I'd rather go down fighting than "move on" to accommodate whiny cowards who don't have the courage of their convictions. terribly old-fashioned of me, I know.



> Do you people realise that half of clapham are gonna turn up to whitness the "vibrant edgyness"  It's all to ironic for me



And...? it's not about them - if they're entertained, that's nice for them, but it's not really something that features on the "things to give a fuck about" scale. "Reclaim Brixton" is about getting a message of unity sent, and it'll do that.



> Anyone protesting about the rise in payday loan out lets and cash for gold shops that we have seen pop up everywhere over the last few years ???



You mean like many community groups have been doing for more than a decade? Are you politically deaf and blind?[/QUOTE]


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

Looks like we are going to get a bit of sunshine, heading off to Windrush Square shortly hope to meet some of you there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You mean like many community groups have been doing for more than a decade? Are you politically deaf and blind?


yes he is


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

han said:


> And just think, if everyone who goes to the demo votes Green. Could we kick the corrupt Labour council out? Yes, we could!


the next london election's in 2018 so i fear you're stuck with the shitty corrupt councillors till then.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Source?


sauce!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

paolo said:


> On the basis that people moving into an area ruin it...



Which would be an argument, but not one that's been made on this thread, unless you equate the above with the far more nuanced position of the sale of a lifestyle to people who often may have more money than sense.



> I'll be protesting against myself tomorrow. I'll start nice, maybe dress up a bit - do a bit of DJing, run a live blog - then later give myself a smack, then do my windows. That'll teach me.



Or you could just give yourself the smack to the bonce.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Mation said:


> If that put the window in they could only have champagne glass. No wonder they want go board them up!



Thanks. Made me chuckle!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thanks. Made me chuckle!


why isn't there an anarchist glaziers?


----------



## han (Apr 25, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> the next london election's in 2018 so i fear you're stuck with the shitty corrupt councillors till then.


Bollox. 
And I've just demonstrated my lack of understanding about how our electoral system works. It's so bloody complicated!


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

Info about the action here. 
Reclaim Brixton 25th April: Black Revs and the Brixton Village Black Blockade action


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

han said:


> And just think, if everyone who goes to the demo votes Green. Could we kick the corrupt Labour council out? Yes, we could!



Bartley (Green PPC for Streatham) would get my vote purely on the basis of having very obviously (given the reactions) thrown a scare up Chukka Umunna *and* Lambeth Labour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Info about the action here.
> Reclaim Brixton 25th April: Black Revs and the Brixton Village Black Blockade action


there's two n's in guinness. just for the future, like.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> why isn't there an anarchist glaziers?



Replacing windows with panes of toughened sugar glass.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> there's two n's in guinness. just for the future, like.


Not my poster! I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Replacing windows with panes of toughened sugar glass.


hansel and gretel ltd


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> hansel and gretel ltd



Might encourage mass window-licking, though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Might encourage mass window-licking, though.


i don't think so, people would smash the windows to get hold of a snack.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 25, 2015)

Solidarity from Birmingham


----------



## han (Apr 25, 2015)

Yeah I'm voting for him.


----------



## ffsear (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> They had every fucking chance to get involved in the community after they opened.  But they did nothing.



They have.  Brixtons community spans a wide social spectrum.  They can't be everything to everyone.   I see the big picture,   just never understood the fuss over this one shop.

Anyway,  enjoy your day.  Lots of photos please!


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 25, 2015)

Solidarity today - looks like a big turnout from the pics I'm seeing.


----------



## Belushi (Apr 25, 2015)

Manu Chao showing his support


----------



## 299 old timer (Apr 25, 2015)

ffsear said:


> They have.  Brixtons community spans a wide social spectrum.  They can't be everything to everyone.   I see the big picture,   just never understood the fuss over this one shop.
> 
> Anyway,  enjoy your day.  Lots of photos please!



I agree. One crappy shop selling overpriced cheese does not count for a lot. Seems to me that they and others are an easy target for the first wave of gentrifiers (1WG) who came along in the late 80s and 90s who think they are the voice of Brixton. The true enemy is the council, it has proved itself by its actions. Give full support to the businesses under the arches, full support for Cressingham, and fuck off this scummy New Labour council in the coming elections.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

There's been a great turn-out so far and it's brilliant seeing all the threatened estates coming together. Really good mix of people too. There's still hope for Brixton!


----------



## Crispy (Apr 25, 2015)

Sparra's on her way (while I slave over a hot stove)


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 25, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> there's two n's in guinness. just for the future, like.



Misuse of the apostrophe there, pickers.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

Great atmosphere in the Square, just popped back for a quick break.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

yeh, nice day for sitting round in the square with a band beneath the auld bovril sign


----------



## pesh (Apr 25, 2015)

had a great time on the Cressingham Gardens march, lots of lovely people, friendly party vibes in Brixton, sorry to have to go to work..


----------



## pesh (Apr 25, 2015)

.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)




----------



## cuppa tee (Apr 25, 2015)

march arrives at windrush square via rushcroft road...........


----------



## Tricky Skills (Apr 25, 2015)

First set of snaps, audio and video from BBuzz.

LOVELY atmosphere out there. Well done to all involved. Now... ACTION?


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 25, 2015)

Looks great. Well done all from an ex Stockwellite.


----------



## tufty79 (Apr 25, 2015)

Plumdaff said:


> Looks great. Well done all from an ex Stockwellite.


Likewise from an ex Brixtoner.


----------



## Maharani (Apr 25, 2015)

Absolutely lovely atmosphere. Sun's come out too!  Message getting across loud and clear.


----------



## shifting gears (Apr 25, 2015)

Foxtons window well and truly STOVED in


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 25, 2015)

Suprised they didn't board up for today tbh.

Storming the gates at town hall too.

(Just seen the pics on the other thread now)


----------



## Twattor (Apr 25, 2015)

Always a particularly articulate way of expressing an opinion. Much as I hate foxtons, I hate mindless reactionism more. These events always descend to this. Makes me ashamed.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Always a particularly articulate way of expressing an opinion. Much as I hate foxtons, I hate mindless reactionism more. These events always descend to this. Makes me ashamed.


Twattor indeed. I am very happy to see Foxton's windows smashed. I did a genuine LOL when I saw the pic.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

I'm more concerned about the permanent damage Foxtons do to communities than them losing a window.


----------



## Twattor (Apr 25, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Twattor indeed. I am very happy to see Foxton's windows smashed. I did a genuine LOL when I saw the pic.



Of course, because it is so grown up.

Where to next, then? Off to Barnardo's again? Those capitalist purveyors of second hand goods. They've just about got round to replacing their windows. Must be due to be smashed up again.

Don't be a cunt.


----------



## ffsear (Apr 25, 2015)

*Trinity Arms (@TrinityArms)*
25/04/2015 16:11
Avoid the Brixton highstreet idiots are ruining reclaim brixton demo #brixton #reclaimbrixton

Download the official Twitter app here


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 25, 2015)

What?!


----------



## shifting gears (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Always a particularly articulate way of expressing an opinion. Much as I hate foxtons, I hate mindless reactionism more. These events always descend to this. Makes me ashamed.



People like you make me ashamed - horses for courses.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Of course, because it is so grown up.
> 
> Where to next, then? Off to Barnardo's again? Those capitalist purveyors of second hand goods. They've just about got round to replacing their windows. Must be due to be smashed up again.
> 
> Don't be a cunt.


Smashing a window of an organisation that is ruining local communities is a legitimate thing to do.


----------



## Twattor (Apr 25, 2015)

In that breaking the law is legitimate?  Look it up.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 25, 2015)

Definitely peaceful and keeping it fluffy while I was there - until about 2pm?  Amazing banners, placards, and even a hat.

Dexter, Miss-Shelf, gaijingirl, and Agent Sparrow, good to see you.  Gramsci, I think I saw you stewarding.  Pesh, sorry if I missed you in passing (only saw your PM when I got back).

Loved the arrival of the Save Brixton Arches people with the samba band.    Great idea of the campaign against police violence to have a stall with bust cards, some of them in Oyster card size wallets.

As for media coverage - there were probably half as many holding mics or filming as there were taking part in the protest.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> In that breaking the law is legitimate?  Look it up.


Yes. It's a brilliantly direct way for a community to communicate their dissatisfaction.


----------



## killer b (Apr 25, 2015)

it's an _obligation_ to do their windows.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Always a particularly articulate way of expressing an opinion. Much as I hate foxtons, I hate mindless reactionism more. These events always descend to this. Makes me ashamed.



Read some Sun Tzu some time. A small action can carry great symbolic weight *and* obviate the need for more destructive action.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm more concerned about the permanent damage Foxtons do to communities than them losing a window.



They have insurance - more than a lot of people who let from them can afford.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> In that breaking the law is legitimate?  Look it up.



The criminal justice system recognises that sometimes breaking the law *is* legitimate. You, on the other hand, are rigid.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> In that breaking the law is legitimate?  Look it up.



Yes, can be.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Yes. It's a brilliantly direct way for a community to communicate their dissatisfaction.



Like I said above, it carries great symbolic weight. In a single action it draws attention to one of the causes that have led to the travails at the Arches, and even on the estates, without anyone getting hurt.


----------



## Twattor (Apr 25, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> Yes, can be.


Go on then, give me the defence that says I can smash a shop window. Might be helpful in future


----------



## Twattor (Apr 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The criminal justice system recognises that sometimes breaking the law *is* legitimate. You, on the other hand, are rigid.


Getting on a bit, so need a bit of physio


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> Yes, can be.



Been a principle since at least the 1820s and early 1830s, when William Hone and others broke the sedition laws to keep people informed about electoral reform. Most memorably deployed w/r/t Trident Ploughshares and Drax, IIRC.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Go on then, give me the defence that says I can smash a shop window. Might be helpful in future



What are you on about?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Go on then, give me the defence that says I can smash a shop window. Might be helpful in future



Judges have this thing, which is a duty to present the discerned facts behind the action, as well as the action itself and the results of the action. Your defence would depend on *why* you acted.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Of course, because it is so grown up.
> 
> Where to next, then? Off to Barnardo's again? Those capitalist purveyors of second hand goods. They've just about got round to replacing their windows. Must be due to be smashed up again.
> 
> Don't be a cunt.



Barnardo's have been complicit with the detention of children. They are the cunts. 

Well done to the people who did Foxtons windows in


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 25, 2015)

A cop is referring to protestors as scum:
Take a look at @DC_Cartwright's Tweet:


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 25, 2015)

ACAB


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

killer b said:


> it's an _obligation_ to do their windows.



An informal obligation, though, like the obligation for Sheffield United and Sheffield Wednesday fans to look daggers at each other.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 25, 2015)

In a recent YouGov poll, when asked the question "What would be your reaction if you heard that a branch of Foxtons had had a window smashed in?" 87% of respondents replied "lol".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

poptyping said:


> Barnardo's have been complicit with the detention of children. They are the cunts.



Yep, although that *and* their historic failures were the reasons given for the window-smashing back in '13.

And the whole Barnardos _schtick_ was done by a bunch of wankers called the _Informal Anarchist Federation_ (stealing the name from the much less wanky Italian F.A.I.) who've almost made a career out of carrying out "political actions" that endanger the lives and/or livings of ordinary working people, rather than by locals, so why Twattor is mentioning it like it was something done by Brixtonites, I don't know.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> A cop is referring to protestors as scum:
> Take a look at @DC_Cartwright's Tweet:




Nothing changes.
And why is the daft cunt busy twittering when they should be working?


----------



## shifting gears (Apr 25, 2015)

Fuck ANYONE defending foxtons getting their windows smashed in.

Today was peaceful, non-violent , but needed something to signify the discontent.

This was perfect.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 25, 2015)

Interestingly, the police who escorted the march from the Cressingham Gardens Rotunda were non local Met.  And full police, not the usual (until now) high vis plastic ones.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 25, 2015)

good to see gaijingirl Greebo eme friendofdorothy Mation  and TopCat again!  And a good chat with Dexter Deadwood on the walk round the roads

Time I was there was peaceful and good cross section of people 
Agree with shifting gears and ViolentPanda about the symbolic action of the windows


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> In a recent YouGov poll, when asked the question "What would be your reaction if you heard that a branch of Foxtons had had a window smashed in?" 87% of respondents replied "lol".



12% replied "I'd be angry that it wasn't me that done it" and 1% replied "wtf Foxtons?".


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 25, 2015)

Btw I see from pictures on Twitter that the person who was just so eager to buy some property he couldn't wait until Monday was properly masked up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

that was fun  the little piggies at brixton police station looked really scared


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

Miss-Shelf said:


> good to see gaijingirl Greebo eme friendofdorothy Mation  and TopCat again!  And a good chat with Dexter Deadwood on the walk round the roads
> 
> Time I was there was peaceful and good cross section of people
> Agree with shifting gears and ViolentPanda about the symbolic action of the windows



Thank you Miss-Shelf it was a pleasure as always


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The criminal justice system recognises that sometimes breaking the law *is* legitimate. You, on the other hand, are rigid.


more like turgid


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Of course, because it is so grown up.
> 
> Where to next, then? Off to Barnardo's again? Those capitalist purveyors of second hand goods. They've just about got round to replacing their windows. Must be due to be smashed up again.
> 
> Don't be a cunt.


you seem the sort of undiscriminating twat who would brick anything


----------



## Twattor (Apr 25, 2015)

No. I live here


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

I loved the remote controlled wheelie bin, very funny.
This child is giving it some resistance, the next generation; Yes!


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> No. I live here



In Foxton's?


----------



## Twattor (Apr 25, 2015)

Actually,  yes. Can anyone suggest a good glazier?


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Always a particularly articulate way of expressing an opinion. Much as I hate foxtons, I hate mindless reactionism more. These events always descend to this. Makes me ashamed.



“Protest beyond the law is not a departure from democracy; it is absolutely essential to it.” - Howard Zinn


----------



## cuppa tee (Apr 25, 2015)




----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

I got a bit of Foxton's glass, it was a big lump and then i dropped it on the way home; yeah beer slowed my hand.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

Reading what some of the local businesses and media have been saying to the press - and on Twitter - is certainly proving illuminating.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Reading what some of the local businesses and media have been saying to the press - and on Twitter - is certainly proving illuminating.



Links pls


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 25, 2015)

Is it all over?


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


>




It was an inch thick and it caved in, now i reckon that takes a bit of skill and deserves a round of applause.


----------



## Twattor (Apr 25, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> Today was peaceful, non-violent , but needed something to signify the discontent.



I just get a bit sad about people smashing things up for the sake of it. Some of us go to a bit of trouble to build things and are disheartened by cunts that just lik


Dexter Deadwood said:


> I got a bit of Foxton's glass, it was a big lump and then i dropped it on the way home; yeah beer slowed my hand.
> 
> View attachment 70696


Hardly a lump of Berlin Wall


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 25, 2015)

Spark plug innit.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

I had a lovely day out and i felt part of this community.
I met TopCat and Mation for the first time and a few others that i have not seen for a long time.
Tried to meet up with frogwoman but failed to do so, I think babylon were interfering with Twitter.


----------



## Effrasurfer (Apr 25, 2015)

Rushy that broken glass was gone when I got back so thanks if it was you!


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> I just get a bit sad about people smashing things up for the sake of it. Some of us go to a bit of trouble to build things and are disheartened by cunts that just lik
> 
> Hardly a lump of Berlin Wall



You are another comedy account, a one joke pony, you all appeared around the same time when others went silent.


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 25, 2015)

exellent news about foxton's windows.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> cunts that just lik


yeh more action needed or no one will enjoy it.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

I stuck all my photo's here; (approx 100)
https://dexterdeadwood.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/reclaimbrixton-brixton-photo-set/
(It's my personal blog, non commercial blog)
Feel free to share, copy and paste, do what you like (a name check would be nice)

The mainstream media will try to portray things a certain way, they are not fit for purpose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I stuck all my photo's here; (approx 100)
> https://dexterdeadwood.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/reclaimbrixton-brixton-photo-set/
> (It's my personal blog, non commercial blog)
> Feel free to share, copy and paste, do what you like (a name check would be nice)
> ...


i can't believe you took so many pictures without me in any of them.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 25, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I had a lovely day out and i felt part of this community.
> I met TopCat and Mation for the first time and a few others that i have not seen for a long time.
> Tried to meet up with frogwoman but failed to do so, I think babylon were interfering with Twitter.



I tried to tweet to you but you didnt reply.


----------



## superfly101 (Apr 25, 2015)

I like it!


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I tried to tweet to you but you didnt reply.



I did but it was delayed, I think babylon were interfering with social media. Then Foxton's happened and i went down there and then came back and i felt like calling out "who is Frogwoman?, I am Dexter" but decided not to.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 25, 2015)




----------



## Greebo (Apr 25, 2015)




----------



## brixtonblade (Apr 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> An informal obligation, though, like the obligation for Sheffield United and Sheffield Wednesday fans to look daggers at each other.


I actually had to sign a contract but your point still stands


----------



## Twattor (Apr 25, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh more action needed or no one will enjoy it.



effing apps cutting a bloke off mid lik...

leaves you wanting more


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> effing apps cutting a bloke off mid lik...
> 
> leaves you wanting more


your post was castrated


----------



## ffsear (Apr 25, 2015)

Smashed windows or not. Sad truth.  Foxtons will be open as usual on Monday.	Nothing changes


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Smashed windows or not. Sad truth.  Foxtons will be open as usual on Monday.	Nothing changes


pity the infection not cauterized.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 25, 2015)

In the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...nti-gentrification-protesters-mass-in-brixton


----------



## cesare (Apr 25, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Smashed windows or not. Sad truth.  Foxtons will be open as usual on Monday.	Nothing changes


It might drive their workers wages up though


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> In the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...nti-gentrification-protesters-mass-in-brixton



The Blog are quick to copy this bollocks.
http://www.brixtonblog.com/reclaim-...housands-attend-mostly-peaceful-protest/29829


----------



## CH1 (Apr 25, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I stuck all my photo's here; (approx 100)
> https://dexterdeadwood.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/reclaimbrixton-brixton-photo-set/
> (It's my personal blog, non commercial blog)
> Feel free to share, copy and paste, do what you like (a name check would be nice)
> ...


These photos are brilliant Dexter.
I may use some on Facebook - I have friends in Manchester, Newark, USA
and Zimbabwe amongst other places who are always keen to hear of events linked to what remains of Brixton's radical conscience.


----------



## clandestino (Apr 25, 2015)

Is everything OK there now? Some folk on twitter seem to think it's all kicking off again, but I don't know if that's just people getting the wrong end of the stick...

Hope everyone's OK.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

Police helicopter out.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

CH1 said:


> These photos are brilliant Dexter.
> I may use some on Facebook - I have friends in Manchester, Newark, USA
> and Zimbabwe amongst other places who are always keen to hear of events linked to what remains of Brixton's radical conscience.



Take what you like.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

clandestino said:


> Is everything OK there now? Some folk on twitter seem to think it's all kicking off again, but I don't know if that's just people getting the wrong end of the stick...
> 
> Hope everyone's OK.


Windrush Square is still busy - with a chilled out festival kind of vibe - while a sizeable group of protesters matched down Brixton Road. There's LOADS of cops about. I think this will be going on for some time.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

I spoke to some of the arch readers and they said that they were delighted with today and really moved with the support they've received.


----------



## clandestino (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Windrush Square is still busy - with a chilled out festival kind of vibe - while a sizeable group of protesters matched down Brixton Road. There's LOADS of cops about. I think this will be going on for some time.



Hope it stays chilled.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 25, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Smashed windows or not. Sad truth.  Foxtons will be open as usual on Monday.	Nothing changes


Funnily enough they have not been exactly pushing the Brixton office.
It never features in their regular Wednesday Evening Standard advert.
Maybe we might get speedy noodle back with one more push?


----------



## story (Apr 25, 2015)

As I was walking towards Windrush Square I came upon a march (about 200 people, but I'm not good at counting crowds) travelling down Atlantic Road with placards and loudspeakers etc. so I joined them. Rumour was that they were marching on the police station. Buses and cars were surrounded by the milling crowd. Some of the car people looked annoyed but the bus driver opened his window to high-five everyone who passed by, and the passengers were on their feet and clapping and cheering as we passed.

We stopped outside Stella's hairdresser, where they were holding a banner saying _*Stella: hair to stay!*_ and there was a cheerful and rowdy few minutes of chanting "Stella! Stella!" and then we were off again, round the corner at M&S. Traffic had to stop for us, including a police van with sirens on. The march offered loud and heartfelt anti-copper chants as it passed the cops. Cops were silent and grim. The march arrived at the police station and broken into two factions. One stopped in the street, holding up traffic, and gave chants and small speeches, mostly about racist cops and police oppression. There were lots of "Hands up! Don't shoot!" 's going on. The other section, about 50 or so, went up the steps of the police station. I stood on the wall to watch. The chant now was "Who killed Mark Duggan? You killed Mark Duggan!" Other names were Ricky Bishop, Sean Rigg, Wayne Douglas, Harry Stanley, etc..... So many, too many....

All the windows on the front of the station were quickly shut fast, as if a storm was approaching. I couldn't see what was happening inside the lobby, but I saw some scuffling at the door, and people started beating on the glass doors. It looked to me as if the police were trying to shut the doors. The shouting changed to cries of protest and I saw that the shutters were being brought down, it looked as if people were being caught in the doors and under the shutter.

Suddenly the protestors surged back away from the doors and a crowd of cops came barrelling out, led by a big burly cop spraying pepper spray at close quarters. One woman was caught right in the face. I later saw her being tended to by friends, washing her face with milk. About four cops baton charged the crowd and beat several protestors with truncheons, pushing them backwards down the stairs while holding their upper arms. I saw one man fall. I'd be surprised if he doesn't sustain some pretty bad bruises. There was also plenty of heavy shoving by the police. They took their stand at the foot of the stairs.

The protest retreated to the perimeter wall and set up anti-cop chanting. Soon after, the riot cops turned up and joined the police cordon. They looked to me as if they'd just had a mainline hit of testosterone, all bulging neck veins wooden-foot walking. They joind the Brixton cops to make a tight cordon all around the outside of the police station.

One young protester, maybe still in her teens, with a skateboard, stood on the wall and berated the cops with eloquence and wit.

Another young woman chided the police about deaths of asylum seekers in custody.

Another came forward and asked the police "Who do you serve?" and the crowd picked this up very fast. It triggered several rounds of loud and angry chanting at the police that included "Whose streets? Our streets? Who pays you? We pay you! Whose community? Our community!" and plenty more.

A woman took the megaphone and asked for calm; she also said that the police are supposed to defend and protect the community, but were here standing against the community, that there were only white faces in the police line, and that it was no wonder that people feel angry at the police when they demonstrate such disrespect for black lives.

A man standing next to me asked if I thought it could go off. I said no, I didn't think so. However, earlier I did feel as if it could. The baton charge and the shoving of people who were already retreating seemed pretty OTT to me, especially as they were pushing people who were already dealing with a face full of pepper spray backwards down the stairs. If someone had been hurt or injured, it could have gone off. If the riot dogs had turned up about three minutes earlier and waded in to the crowd, it could have gone off.

I stayed a little longer and then left to join the party in Windrush Square. As I walked up Brixton Road loads of legal observers passed me going towards the police station. There had been one or two there, handing out bust cards and taking notes.

Was anyone else there at the station?


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

clandestino said:


> Hope it stays chilled.


I think Windrush Square will be fine - the rambling mob is where the action is going to be.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 25, 2015)

Good luck to everyone involved in saving the spirit of London's greatest area.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I spoke to some of the arch readers and they said that they were delighted with today and really moved with the support they've received.



With the arches being closed for two hours to hold their own protest they were a bit disconnected from the Square, I left the Square briefly just before 2pm and also spoke to some of the traders and they were indeed delighted to know there had been a great turnout in the Square and that that atmosphere was fantastic.

I did post on the *Out with the Old... Network Rail tell businesses to vacate Atlantic Road arches*
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ntic-road-arches.331912/page-23#post-13856177
that any kind of close down would be difficult to achieve but they did it and it worked and full credit to them; that's community.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

How many cops?


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

The cop station is now on lockdown.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I did post on the *Out with the Old... Network Rail tell businesses to vacate Atlantic Road arches*
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ntic-road-arches.331912/page-23#post-13856177
> that any kind of close down would be difficult to achieve but they did it and it worked and full credit to them; that's community.


And it was wonderful that the bubbly Fromagers decided to _really_ show their support and close down all day long!


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

I'm like 30 seconds from the cop shop but I have had a drink.......


----------



## brixtonblade (Apr 25, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> The Blog are quick to copy this bollocks.
> http://www.brixtonblog.com/reclaim-...housands-attend-mostly-peaceful-protest/29829


That blog article is shit - the story here isnt the odd bit of disturbance but the fact that so many people came out together and made a stand.  I thought it was a really nice atmosphere - was there with a baby so home already but was a great vibe and a great day.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 25, 2015)

Brief update:
- 10 people rushed the police station and were driven out with pepper spray. Confirmed by legal observers. No windows broken, sadly
- another group got into the town hall and the rumour mill says they cornered 5 coppers and gave them a kicking. Don't know if it was true, but if it was one of the legal observers will be able to confirm it
- as of about 6 pm there'd been 2 arrests, one for the Foxtons window. The bloke who broke it wasn't arrested so perhaps the arrest was for the person who sprayed Yuppies Out on the other window
- a group of 60 or so went down to the police station and many riot officers tried to kettle them. But the only thing kettled was a bicycle soundsystem, which was instantly destroyed. Much chanting of "the only thing you've kettled is a bike.."
- lots of security at BV and Market Row to keep out protesters, but they forgot to guard the Pope's Road entrance and about 40 people waltzed in for a peaceful march. They didn't pass the champagne bar, which was boarded up.
- the helicopter is busy, I suspect because people are running around dodging kettling attempts

All good fun and very well planned and executed by the protesters, who have been keeping the police stretched by popping up at a wide range of thoroughly deserving targets at opposite ends of Brixton. No random violence or looting. Brixton can be proud so far. But I suspect things will carry on for hours yet so I'm off out again.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

In the moment of an election #ReclaimBrixton was organised without trade unions and without any political parties. We showed them how redundant they are.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 25, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I think babylon were interfering with Twitter.


If you're on O2 or Giffgaff, Brixton center is a dead zone for reception.

Fantastic atmosphere this afternoon. Brixton ain't dead yet


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

Crispy said:


> If you're on O2 or Giffgaff, Brixton center is a dead zone for reception.
> 
> Fantastic atmosphere this afternoon. Brixton ain't dead yet



Giffgaff, thanks for that. frogwoman


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

I'm just going to have a stroll down to the cop shop not to get more beers in the supermarket or anything.


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 25, 2015)

I was proud today. Foxtons got what was due. Fuck them!


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

Reclaim Brixton: Foxtons estate agents in Brixton gets windows smashed


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Reclaim Brixton: Foxtons estate agents in Brixton gets windows smashed



Company police!


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Brief update:
> -- another group got into the town hall and the rumour mill says they cornered 5 coppers and gave them a kicking. Don't know if it was true, but if it was one of the legal observers will be able to confirm it


Hmm. x 10.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

Oh and well done to all you urbanites who came out today to support this important protest.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> That blog article is shit - the story here isnt the odd bit of disturbance but the fact that so many people came out together and made a stand.  I thought it was a really nice atmosphere - was there with a baby so home already but was a great vibe and a great day.


There's a great set of photos here: http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/04/...ke-a-stand-against-increasing-gentrification/

I'll be adding more later.


----------



## Rushy (Apr 25, 2015)

Barnardos Windows stoved in again. Brave  revolutionaries.


----------



## gaijingirl (Apr 25, 2015)

Just back home.  What a great day!  I hope we see more of the same over summer - brilliant work by those who organised it.  The kids and I took part in the human chain around the arches and whilst we did this, organisers were wheeling bottled water around to those involved.  I was really blown away at this level of detail and organisation.  I hope they read this because it I want to say how impressive it was.  I'd really like to see other areas do the same in the upcoming months and ultimately for there to be a gathering of all those areas in a Reclaim London demo.  Good to see load of urbanites - too many to mention here.  Everything I saw was peaceful and fun but powerful - I felt inspired.

Yeah Foxtons got their window put through but I'm assuming they have an annual budget for this.


----------



## gaijingirl (Apr 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Barbados Windows stoved in again. Brave  revolutionaries.



Barnados I assume - this I don't really get.    It's not representative of the event as a whole from my perspective.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I did but it was delayed, I think babylon were interfering with social media. Then Foxton's happened and i went down there and then came back and i felt like calling out "who is Frogwoman?, I am Dexter" but decided not to.


More likely to be high density of phone use in the area "maxing out" the networks than Babylon using their phone necromancy skillz. Apparently happened last new years' eve during the final countdown too for lots of the spectators there.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Barbados Windows stoved in again. Brave  revolutionaries.



There is a reason.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 25, 2015)

gaijingirl said:


> I'd really like to see other areas do the same in the upcoming months and ultimately for their to be a gathering of all those areas in a Reclaim London demo.



^^^ this with bells on! Too many community spaces disappearing, the threat to social housing, the constant increases to private renters. To build on this, I'd like to see something happening every other week in different areas.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

Good to see Labour standing strong.


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 25, 2015)

load of old bill heading up f


ViolentPanda said:


> More likely to be high density of phone use in the area "maxing out" the networks than Babylon using their phone necromancy skillz. Apparently happened last new years' eve during the final countdown too for lots of the spectators there.


happens at millwall too at half time. then goes back to normal once the game starts. density of calls.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Reclaim Brixton: Foxtons estate agents in Brixton gets windows smashed




I see the OB are doing their most important job - defending privilege.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Barnardos Windows stoved in again. Brave  revolutionaries.



Fuck off, there's a good _rentier_.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I see the OB are doing their most important job - defending privilege.



What do they think is going to get looted from an Estate Agents? Pamphlets?


----------



## brixtonblade (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Good to see Labour standing strong.




Cant wait for the answer to this one...

@IainSimpson Do you think that might have anything to do with the fact that people facing eviction are really angry at yr housing policies?


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

Wow. This Labour Councillor really is quite shit 
https://twitter.com/IainSimpson


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> Cant wait for the answer to this one...
> 
> @IainSimpson Do you think that might have anything to do with the fact that people facing eviction are really angry at yr housing policies?


Have a look at his tweets. I may as well be conversing with a Tory.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

Cop shop quiet now but they are stacking up.
Had a laugh with the legendary landlord who tried to hush me (for my own sake) in front of a van of paramilitary police but i told him i was on the public pavement and he was looking down at me from the front of his premises as a landlord.
"What is it that you want Dexter?"
"Well, I used to be a Marxist but let's have anarchy."
Then we both exchanged Platonic quotes, I know he taught English and is a very clever man. He didn't test me and I got away with it. Also took his advice and went home.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 25, 2015)

Favelado said:


> What do they think is going to get looted from an Estate Agents? Pamphlets?


A stylish (if you like that sort of thing) yet incredibly uncomfortable chair?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

gaijingirl said:


> Barnados I assume - this I don't really get.    It's not representative of the event as a whole from my perspective.



The justification used in 2013 (by the "Informal Anarchist Federation" twats) when the same thing happened, was that as Barnardos are involved in the detention of juvenile refugees in the UK, they're a fair target. Wouldn't have bothered with them myself, but I know that some immigration activists get quite het up about Barnardos involvement, as it tends to lend an air of respectability to the (mostly illegal) detention of children.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

boohoo said:


> ^^^ this with bells on! Too many community spaces disappearing, the threat to social housing, the constant increases to private renters. To build on this, I'd like to see something happening every other week in different areas.



And the constant increase in private rents that's pushing ever more people to food banks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> load of old bill heading up f
> 
> happens at millwall too at half time. then goes back to normal once the game starts. density of calls.



Nah, that's a couple of West Ham fans in a Mercedes van outside the ground, using electronics kit to wind you up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Favelado said:


> What do they think is going to get looted from an Estate Agents? Pamphlets?



The estate agency's supply of "total cunt" pills?


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 25, 2015)

what did the beards in the village do whilst it was all going off? 

where they just chomping away in teh vibrant hub as usual?


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 25, 2015)

pop up riot.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Wow. This Labour Councillor really is quite shit
> https://twitter.com/IainSimpson



Way too many of them are. Simpson seems to use twitter to do quite a bit of re-tweeting/arse-licking, though, as well as using it to talk vapid party-political shite.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> what did the beards in the village do whilst it was all going off?
> 
> where they just chomping away in teh vibrant hub as usual?


Probably. The fight for affordable rents and social housing for the community probably isn't their concern.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Have a look at his tweets. I may as well be conversing with a Tory.



He's "new Labour". You *are* conversing with a Tory.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 25, 2015)

To Let. Innovatively open-fronted retail property complete with original shattered glass artwork.  Vibrant area with local rock-throwing customs and culture .Excellent transport links. Up and coming area.

15000 pounds a month rent.

Call or walk right in (open 24 hours) for further info.


----------



## cuppa tee (Apr 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> what did the beards in the village do whilst it was all going off?


Plenty beards on the march, and hats too


----------



## gaijingirl (Apr 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The justification used in 2013 (by the "Informal Anarchist Federation" twats) when the same thing happened, was that as Barnardos are involved in the detention of juvenile refugees in the UK, they're a fair target. Wouldn't have bothered with them myself, but I know that some immigration activists get quite het up about Barnardos involvement, as it tends to lend an air of respectability to the (mostly illegal) detention of children.



yes - I have read this information here (and other information about Barnados) before so I'm not unaware of this and it is probably a legitimate point.  However, I'm fairly sure that the majority of people passing by Barnados would not be aware of this and as a result it is really not very helpful to today's cause.  I say this as someone who deals with juvenile refugees in my workplace.


----------



## brixtonblade (Apr 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Way too many of them are. Simpson seems to use twitter to do quite a bit of re-tweeting/arse-licking, though, as well as using it to talk vapid party-political shite.


He's gone pretty quiet on that discussion... I'd be interested to hear his thoughts as a councilor on the suggestion that people are annoyed with his party's policy but he doesnt seem to want to talk about anything substantive


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

gaijingirl said:


> yes - I have read this information here (and other information about Barnados) before so I'm not unaware of this and it is probably a legitimate point.  However, I'm fairly sure that the majority of people passing by Barnados would not be aware of this and as a result it is really not very helpful to today's cause.  I say this as someone who deals with juvenile refugees in my workplace.


Totally agree, which is why I was so rude about the window-breakers when it happened in 2013 - if imprisoning kids was Barnardos' primary function, breaking their windows might have been (then as now) a meaningful statement, but weighed against the social good they manage to do too, it's not meaningful or at all worthwhile.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> He's gone pretty quiet on that discussion... I'd be interested to hear his thoughts as a councilor on the suggestion that people are annoyed with his party's policy but he doesnt seem to want to talk about anything substantive



They seldom do. When our ward councillors (Tulse Hill) get cornered about Cressingham, the usual whine is "we didn't know what the Cabinet was planning". Chinny fucking reckon.


----------



## cuppa tee (Apr 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Totally agree, which is why I was so rude about the window-breakers when it happened in 2013 - if imprisoning kids was Barnardos' primary function, breaking their windows might have been (then as now) a meaningful statement, but weighed against the social good they manage to do too, it's not meaningful or at all worthwhile.


........if every business involved in exploitation or shady dealing was targeted there wouldn't be many windows left intact on the main drag


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

Favelado said:


> To Let. Innovatively open-fronted retail property complete with original shattered glass artwork.  Vibrant area with local rock-throwing customs and culture .Excellent transport links. Up and coming area.
> 
> 15000 pounds a month rent.
> 
> Call or walk right in (open 24 hours) for further info.



Beautiful.


----------



## brixtonblade (Apr 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> They seldom do. When our ward councillors (Tulse Hill) get cornered about Cressingham, the usual whine is "we didn't know what the Cabinet was planning". Chinny fucking reckon.


In which case I'd be a lot happier if he kept his gob shut about the whole thing - if he's going to chip in with his thoughts on the day then I think it's only fair for him to explain HIS PARTY'S shitty policies.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> ........if every business involved in exploitation or shady dealing was targeted there wouldn't be many windows left intact on the main drag



Quite. Where do you draw the line - the greengrocer who sells dollar bananas rather than fairtrade bananas?
Barnardos justify their involvement via an "if we weren't involved, it'd be even worse" argument, and while the argument hasn't been tested, the raw numbers of complaints against detention staff have gone down. Whether that's down to Barnardos or to suppression of data, we've yet to find out.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> In which case I'd be a lot happier if he kept his gob shut about the whole thing - if he's going to chip in with his thoughts on the day then I think it's only fair for him to explain HIS PARTY'S shitty policies.



In an ideal world he'd stop mouthing vapid posturing shite and engage with what's going on, but frankly a lot of these wankers are so unused to being held to account - so used to operating politics *on* us rather than actually *for* us - that they have a hard time seeing *why* they should engage with us smelly plebs.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

Would those food stalls at the Ritzy end of the Square usually be there on a Saturday or were they just opportunist leftovers?


----------



## Cpatain Rbubish (Apr 25, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> why isn't there an anarchist glaziers?





ViolentPanda said:


> Replacing windows with panes of toughened sugar glass.





Pickman's model said:


> hansel and gretel ltd



Actually, it's "All the Hansels and All the Gretels Anarcho-Socialist Syndicalist Sugar Glass Co-operative Collective Disorganisation" not Ltd! Tsk!

ETA: They have a social and ethical policy which would prohibit them from taking on Foxtons as a client under the "why we wont do business with cunts addendum"


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2015)

Later in day spontaneous march started through Brixton. First stop the Town Hall. Large crowd outside side entrance tried to invade the Town Hall. They were shouting "Our Town Hall"


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 25, 2015)

fuck white supremacy?

not sure if its racism what's happening in teh brixton. more treating the working classes like garbage.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 25, 2015)

Fuck it all the same.


----------



## 299 old timer (Apr 25, 2015)

Fuck White Supremacy?  Oh dear oh dear, clearly the agent provocatuers are on top form. Stay alert!


----------



## girasol (Apr 25, 2015)




----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 25, 2015)

Fantastic coverage from all concerned. It does take an effort even in this techno age and you have to be bothered.
Urban and Buzz dovetail beautifully in this regard to form an alternative source of information.


----------



## cuppa tee (Apr 25, 2015)

.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2015)

Next stop Foxtons


----------



## T & P (Apr 25, 2015)

Glad to hear everyone had a good time  It'd be ace if Lambeth and Network Rail took a bit of notice of how unpopular their treatment of social tenants/ traders is.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2015)

The protestors went on the Brixton Village. As they went past the arches they chanted Save Our Shops.In Brixton Village they chanted Its Our Market.


----------



## uk benzo (Apr 25, 2015)

Great day. The highlight for me was the march through BV with bemused tourists looking on filming with camera phones. I enjoyed the afternoon's political entertainment. The mix of people was great.

I was dismayed when a handful of people started chucking cans of lager at the police who were trying to shut down the sound system in the middle of the st Mathews church junction, which inevitably hit innocent bystanders.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 25, 2015)

And finally, Sid and Nancy the remote controlled wheelie bins, equipped with air horns and water pistols


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2015)

The Guinness Trust campaigners enter Windrush Square.


----------



## shaman75 (Apr 25, 2015)




----------



## ska invita (Apr 25, 2015)

Crispy said:


> Fantastic atmosphere this afternoon. Brixton ain't dead yet


whatever else is said and done it warms the cockles to see brixton out on the streets and in action....

really hope this can lead to something lasting....wonder what will/can happen next? would be nice to see it spread to other boroughs... reclaim hackney next? would be great if it could turn into a london wide movement


----------



## 19sixtysix (Apr 26, 2015)

It's behind you!


editor said:


>



What the fuck this lot were going to do after the event is anybody's guess.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Apr 26, 2015)

.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

19sixtysix said:


> It's behind you!
> 
> 
> What the fuck this lot were going to do after the event is anybody's guess.



My best guess is that most of them will masturbate, if they are not too tired, about those opposing them; most will fail to orgasm.


----------



## 19sixtysix (Apr 26, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> My best guess is that most of them will masturbate, if they are not too tired, about those opposing them; most will fail to orgasm.



Not quite what i'd meant but 
I missed all the fun being stuck at work all day.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Apr 26, 2015)

'Aint no body' and 'rythem is a dancer' were certainly highlights of the day. Unless you were stuck on that 159.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 26, 2015)

I think those choons were coming from the bicycle soundsystem which was smashed to pieces by the riot polis. The owner was very upset.


----------



## shaman75 (Apr 26, 2015)

It was certainly dragged off to the police station.  I think that was what finished the party and the Police knew it.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 26, 2015)

Twitter says this guy was arrested and is being held at Brixton police station http://www.theguardian.com/profile/jason-parkinson


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Apr 26, 2015)

Great day. Loads of friends old and new out today. It was Baby Hatter(15 months)'s first protest. Hopefully we radicalised him. (He's off to Syria next week.)

Best day since the Thatcher death party.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 26, 2015)

Please remind me what the Ritzy letters were rearranged to say that evening. I can't remember but I'm sure it was the funniest thing I'd ever seen. Apart from Sid and Nancy this afternoon.


----------



## Buckaroo (Apr 26, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Please remind me what the Ritzy letters were rearranged to say that evening. I can't remember but I'm sure it was the funniest thing I'd ever seen. Apart from Sid and Nancy this afternoon.



This?


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 26, 2015)

Yes! It was the Lol which slayed me. But I was shitfaced.


----------



## Rushy (Apr 26, 2015)

Effrasurfer said:


> Rushy that broken glass was gone when I got back so thanks if it was you!


No one would trust me with a precious broom and pan but someone kindly did it for me!


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 26, 2015)

Great to see so many urbz out and about today.  I enjoyed holding hands with other customers at the Arches. Lots of passers by where interested in why and stayed to listen. I hope it makes Network rail take notice.

Lovely atmosphere in Windrush square, It was really intersesting talking to many people there. I had to go home before anything kicked off.




Twattor said:


> I just get a bit sad about people smashing things up for the sake of it. Some of us go to a bit of trouble to build things and are disheartened by cunts that just lik
> 
> Hardly a lump of Berlin Wall


I have mixed feeling about destruction. I don't like to see vandalism. I favoured passive resistence and non violent action in my youth.

Unfortunately the media usually ignore peaceful protests. Many social changes began with a riot. The suffragettes smashed a lot of windows. I'm not surprised that some glass got broken, but glad the protesters only hit specific targets though.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 26, 2015)

The police station incident is on youtube. Rather shocking viewing.


----------



## han (Apr 26, 2015)

Christ!!


----------



## boohoo (Apr 26, 2015)

What would be good is if the Brixton buzz wrote a small individual article about all the different groups who turned up and what their cause is. I do think this would offer inspiration to those looking to get involved in causes local to them. I'd like to add my voice to those dealing with private renting issues (more fucking noise needs to be made about this!!)


----------



## ffsear (Apr 26, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> load of old bill heading up f
> 
> happens at millwall too at half time. then goes back to normal once the game starts. density of calls.



Will be worse when you get relegated next week


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 26, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Will be worse when you get relegated next week


Fair point Nige


----------



## girasol (Apr 26, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The police station incident is on youtube. Rather shocking viewing.




Sorry I'm failing to see what's so shocking in there?  Just the usual police behaviour in these types of situations, didn't see anything out of the ordinary?  We all know the police don't exist to protect the ordinary people anymore.  They exist to protect money and property (and themselves)


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

boohoo said:


> What would be good is if the Brixton buzz wrote a small individual article about all the different groups who turned up and what their cause is.  <snip>


Brixton Buzz has covered several of those groups, this year and before.


----------



## cesare (Apr 26, 2015)

girasol said:


> Sorry I'm failing to see what's so shocking in there?  Just the usual police behaviour in these types of situations, didn't see anything out of the ordinary?  We all know the police don't exist to protect the ordinary people anymore.  They exist to protect money and property (and themselves)


That was always their function.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 26, 2015)

Wtf do people think the police will do when people try to storm a police reception screaming and shouting. 

That's an entirely predictable response. 

More importantly I hope people don't get a knock on the door after the police see that video. Not as many people with faces obscured as they may wish later in the week.


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 26, 2015)

i bet half of the coppers in there have done more for the community of brixton in a day than many of them people attacking it do in years!


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 26, 2015)

and what have the police got to with rising rents and landlords being cunts?

"protect property, init."


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

story said:


> As I was walking towards Windrush Square I came upon a march (about 200 people, but I'm not good at counting crowds) travelling down Atlantic Road with placards and loudspeakers etc. so I joined them. Rumour was that they were marching on the police station. Buses and cars were surrounded by the milling crowd. Some of the car people looked annoyed but the bus driver opened his window to high-five everyone who passed by, and the passengers were on their feet and clapping and cheering as we passed.
> 
> We stopped outside Stella's hairdresser, where they were holding a banner saying _*Stella: hair to stay!*_ and there was a cheerful and rowdy few minutes of chanting "Stella! Stella!" and then we were off again, round the corner at M&S. Traffic had to stop for us, including a police van with sirens on. The march offered loud and heartfelt anti-copper chants as it passed the cops. Cops were silent and grim. The march arrived at the police station and broken into two factions. One stopped in the street, holding up traffic, and gave chants and small speeches, mostly about racist cops and police oppression. There were lots of "Hands up! Don't shoot!" 's going on. The other section, about 50 or so, went up the steps of the police station. I stood on the wall to watch. The chant now was "Who killed Mark Duggan? You killed Mark Duggan!" Other names were Ricky Bishop, Sean Rigg, Wayne Douglas, Harry Stanley, etc..... So many, too many....
> 
> ...


yes


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 26, 2015)

cant be arsed


----------



## boohoo (Apr 26, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Brixton Buzz has covered several of those groups, this year and before.


Yes - like Cressingham and  the arches - but other groups came down. like Central Hill people and Knights Walk. A separate article on the people facing huge disruption to their lives and the likeliness to be forced away from their community would be useful.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Yes - like Cressingham and  the arches - but other groups came down. like Central Hill people and Knights Walk. A separate article on the people facing huge disruption to their lives and the likeliness to be forced away from their community would be useful.


AFAIK they've been covered too, but you've probably not seen as much because their threat of regeneration etc began a lot more recently.  Keeping the article readably short while including enough detail to do each of several groups any justice at all would be a problem.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 26, 2015)

Greebo said:


> AFAIK they've been covered too, but you've probably not seen as much because their threat of regeneration etc began a lot more recently.  Keeping the article readably short while including enough detail to do each of several groups any justice at all would be a problem.



But as separate estates or just as part of the same issue facing Cressingham? Central Hill and Knights Walk don't have local blogs that have big followings so separate stories would be good.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 26, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> I think those choons were coming from the bicycle soundsystem which was smashed to pieces by the riot polis. The owner was very upset.


that is very shit...should have a whip round for them


----------



## boohoo (Apr 26, 2015)

ska invita said:


> that is very shit...should have a whip round for them


Yes - help get it back on the road.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

If you think it's important, why don't you write it, or at least pull the details together?  Serious question.

Bear in mind that each of those campaigns (including Sweets Way and Dorchester Court) are sustained by people in their spare time with their (limited) spare energy and resources, and a lot of them are already doing as much as they can.  As is Brixton Buzz.

The cavalry isn't coming over the hill unless you help provide the horses.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 26, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Unfortunately the media usually ignore peaceful protests. Many social changes began with a riot. The suffragettes smashed a lot of windows. I'm not surprised that some glass got broken, but glad the protesters only hit specific targets though.


suffragettes had an extensive targeted (and iirc non-deadly) bombing campaign too


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> cant be arsed


yes we want no cant on this thread


----------



## boohoo (Apr 26, 2015)

Greebo said:


> If you think it's important, why don't you write it, or at least pull the details together?  Serious question.
> 
> Bear in mind that each of those campaigns (including Sweets Way and Dorchester Court) are sustained by people in their spare time with their (limited) spare energy and resources, and a lot of them are already doing as much as they can.  As is Brixton Buzz.
> 
> The cavalry isn't coming over the hill unless you help provide the horses.



Too busy with work (to get the money for an over inflated rent), childcare and running the mural project (for the last five years). I am exceptionally time poor to the point of trying not to have a melt down.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Apr 26, 2015)

ska invita said:


> that is very shit...should have a whip round for them


Yeah, anyone know a contact? Seen them at Critical Mass in the past.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

And I'm too busy being an unpaid carer and doing my tiny share of this estate's campaign while trying to prevent physically burning out again.  It's always easy to have a great idea - less easy to find somebody with the time and energy to do it.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 26, 2015)

Greebo said:


> And I'm too busy being an unpaid carer and doing my tiny share of this estate's campaign while trying to prevent physically burning out again.  It's always easy to have a great idea - less easy to find somebody with the time and energy to do it.



Or as someone said to me - if you want someone to do something, find a busy person. My mum is a full time carer for my dad so I know how hard it is to find time.

Do you have any contacts for any of the groups affected by large private rents (such as Dorcester Court?)


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

boohoo said:


> <snip> Do you have any contacts for any of the groups affected by large private rents (such as Dorcester Court?)


shifting gears?  

You might also try asking Lambeth Housing Activists (they meet on something like the first Monday of the month?), although I suggest that you be very wary indeed when giving any contact details, maybe create a second or third email account to use with them. </teaching grandmother to suck eggs>


----------



## leanderman (Apr 26, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Or as someone said to me - if you want someone to do something, find a busy person. My mum is a full time carer for my dad so I know how hard it is to find time.
> 
> Do you have any contacts for any of the groups affected by large private rents (such as Dorcester Court?)



Dorchester court people told me: 'Most of the court is owned by Manaquel Co Ltd. Their director is property tycoon Heinrich Feldman.'  They are contactable on Twitter


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2015)

The London Black Rev led some very weird trot cult like call and response chanting.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 26, 2015)

ska invita said:


> suffragettes had an extensive targeted (and iirc non-deadly) bombing campaign too



There was a story that they planned to assassinate the Prime Minister at the time.  (They did attack Streatham hill station!! - but then Streatham had a WSPU branch there)

Some historians suggest that it was the work of the larger peaceful Suffragists movement that actually won the vote.


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Apr 26, 2015)

A Huge Shout out and thanks to the ReclaimBrixton organiser who helped my friend.

She had driven down from Scotland on a visit to her elderly Mum who had had emergency surgery and was in a critical state, and got as far as the junction approaching the Ritzy when the roads were shut and she was trapped. Having had a good conversation with one of the organisers through her car window, she then explained her problem and the organiser helped her to do the impossible - get through the gridlock, asking people to move, clearing the way so she could get through. I have spoken to her this morning - she is really grateful.

Great Brixton community spirit.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 26, 2015)

boohoo said:


> What would be good is if the Brixton buzz wrote a small individual article about all the different groups who turned up and what their cause is. I do think this would offer inspiration to those looking to get involved in causes local to them. I'd like to add my voice to those dealing with private renting issues (more fucking noise needs to be made about this!!)



editor if this is something you are up for then I'm game for helping out


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> The London Black Rev led some very weird trot cult like call and response chanting.


it seemed like a weird mix of the lord's prayer, the c of e marriage ceremony and a spot of marx.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 26, 2015)

someone told me it was them doing human microphone to get the speech heard by the whole crowd

it did feel a bit like being back at church saying the Credo


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> The London Black Rev led some very weird trot cult like call and response chanting.



It came from Occupy, the human microphone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_microphone#As_a_form_of_protest
David Graeber has some interesting ideas on this in his excellent book; The Democracy Project.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13330433-the-democracy-project


----------



## cuppa tee (Apr 26, 2015)

The press tv reporter featured in Tricky Skills pictures on brixton buzz has a piece up for viewing.......
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/04/25/408074/Britain-London-Brixton-protest


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> It came from Occupy, the human microphone.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_microphone#As_a_form_of_protest
> David Graeber has some interesting ideas on this in his excellent book; The Democracy Project.
> http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13330433-the-democracy-project


it wasn't a speech it was call and response like any chant


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> The press tv reporter featured in Tricky Skills pictures on brixton buzz has a piece up for viewing.......
> http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/04/25/408074/Britain-London-Brixton-protest



Had to change the headline before I tweeted a link to it, it was thousands not hundreds; shame on PressTV for distorting the truth


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The police station incident is on youtube. Rather shocking viewing.




Which twat filmed it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Which twat filmed it.


there's always someone who has to spoil it for all the rest


----------



## ska invita (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Which twat filmed it.


posting on the youtube comments asking for it to be taken down often works


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

ska invita said:


> posting on the youtube comments asking for it to be taken down often works



Shame it won't also delete any other copies downloaded.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 26, 2015)

I've seen someone I recognise in that.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Shame it won't also delete any other copies downloaded.


well yes ~ sooner the better eh


----------



## Tricky Skills (Apr 26, 2015)

Pretty pissed off to wake up this morning to find out that VIOLENCE dominated most of the media reporting. The bloody Guardian really should know better.

We need to build upon what was achieved yesterday.

BBuzz opinion piece.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 26, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Pretty pissed off to wake up this morning to find out that VIOLENCE dominated most of the media reporting. The bloody Guardian really should know better.
> 
> We need to build upon what was achieved yesterday.
> 
> BBuzz opinion piece.



Guardian article written by the editor of Brixton Blog.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Apr 26, 2015)

poptyping said:


> Guardian article written by the editor of Brixton Blog.





Wonder if she was paid for that?


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> <snip> We need to build upon what was achieved yesterday.
> 
> BBuzz opinion piece.


Agreed - the strong point of yesterday was that it wasn't one class, one ethnicity, one creed, or one age group.  And most of it was peaceful and productive, in spite of some very silly rumourmongering  (on my way back up to Morval Rd, one twit said "there's going to be a riot down there later").  There were a lot of people who were nothing like stereotypical protestors, and they'd only show up on a Saturday for something which really concerns them.


poptyping said:


> Guardian article written by the editor of Brixton Blog.


Not surprised.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 26, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Wonder if she was paid for that?



Wondering the same thing.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 26, 2015)

Bit of an odd piece in terms of style as well. Hardly any quotes in it. Makes it read more like her version of the day than an 'objective' news report.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

Stopped reading beyond "More than a 1,000 people....."


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Stopped reading beyond "More than a 1,000 people....."


I'd have guessed a few hundred, although that might be boosted if you counted everyone who was even there for 10 minutes, instead of the most people present at one time.

BTW the amount of smalltime media people was rather large:  It seemed to me that there were roughly half as many of them as there were of protestors in the first hour in Windrush Square.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

I enjoyed yesterday, it was good, old fashioned fun.  And good to see a cross section (albeit fairly narrow) of the communities pulling together. 

But two things troubled me.

"Whose Brixton, Our Brixton" chants and "Yuppies Out" sprayed on Foxtons both made me uncomfortable.  I could characterise it by saying it looked rather like people who've been here 5 years attacking those who've been here 2.  Or 10 & 5, 20 & 10, 40 & 20, don't get hung up on the numbers. 

Brixton doesn't belong to people who've been here 5,10, 20, 40 years any more than those who've arrived in the last 2, 5, 10, 20 can be dismissed as yuppies.  Blaming individuals is not the point as the (excellent) woman who seemed to do much of the compering from the gazebo was at pains to stress.  If hers was the line agreed at the planning meeting and endorsed by the organised groups then its a shame it didn't get through to the people with the megaphones and the spray can, and those supporting them.  Subculture(s) against subculture isn't going anywhere.

The other thing, well for those that remember the day, years ago, when RTS campaigners closed off the high st and there was a sandpit outside Morleys, it was like that.  On that occasion I met an elderly lady with her shopping bags looking utterly defeated as she realised there were no buses and she'd have to walk.  Yesterday two teenagers stood at the busstop (just after Foxtons lost its window) and one said the the other "I just want to go home, they're stealing my saturday".

There were members of an awful lot of Brixton communities walking past, taking no notice, ignoring and being ignored.  If this is to make a difference, and I hope it does, they have to be engaged and their rights (for want of a better word) have to be considered.  Not just in the abstract but properly, responsibly on future occasions like yesterday.

Alternatively, if it's just a party for hundreds or thousands of locals and their mates from far and wide, then fine, but the campaigns, the real, serious self-interest campaigns with a lot to lose, the ones prayed in aid throughout the day, they'll get little except harm from being associated with it.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 26, 2015)

get involved and ensure those things that you want to happen happen then

also any organisers of a massive event like this can't be held responsible for every single group, person or indeed action taken


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> I enjoyed yesterday, it was good, old fashioned fun.  And good to see a cross section (albeit fairly narrow) of the communities pulling together.
> 
> But two things troubled me.
> 
> ...



I didn't get that impression at all.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> I enjoyed yesterday, it was good, old fashioned fun.  And good to see a cross section (albeit fairly narrow) of the communities pulling together.
> 
> But two things troubled me.
> 
> ...



Whilst I agree in theory it's interesting how you have the skill to ascertain that those involved in the protest were from 'far and wide' whilst those wandering past were 'members of an awful lot of Brixton communities'.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

19sixtysix said:


> It's behind you!
> 
> 
> What the fuck this lot were going to do after the event is anybody's guess.



Fairly obvious - stand around, showing locals exactly what the priorities of the criminal justice system are.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Whilst I agree in theory it's interesting how you have the skill to ascertain that those involved in the protest were from 'far and wide' whilst those wandering past were 'members of an awful lot of Brixton communities'.


it's not a skill, it's a personal observation.  I have no problem with people from outside the area joining yesterdays protest, but I could observe that they were there. Of the three comments so far, two are from people who don't live in Brixton.  I have no problem with that, it's just an observation.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> My best guess is that most of them will masturbate, if they are not too tired, about those opposing them; most will fail to orgasm.



Most of them find it hard to reach the vinegar strokes if they're not giving someone a beating, apparently.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

ddraig said:


> get involved and ensure those things that you want to happen happen then
> 
> also any organisers of a massive event like this can't be held responsible for every single group, person or indeed action taken


I haven't suggested any organisers are responsible.  This medium allows for direct communication with people who were there and who will be there in future.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> it's not a skill, it's a personal observation.  I have no problem with people from outside the area joining yesterdays protest, but I could observe that they were there. Of the three comments so far, two are from people who don't live in Brixton.  I have no problem with that, it's just an observation.



I wasn't on the protest so you're out of luck there I'm afraid.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

cesare said:


> That was always their function.



True, but they used to pretend to be there to look after everyone. Now they've dropped even the pretence.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I didn't get that impression at all.


fair enough.  Do you think the people in the newly done up flats in Rushcroft Road didn't get that impression?  Or the ones who want to buy something Foxtons are selling?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> i bet half of the coppers in there have done more for the community of brixton in a day than many of them people attacking it do in years!



Really? 
When you only get a visit from the OB if your gaff has been broken into, and stuff actually stolen - when they don't bother about theft from cars anymore, except to give you a crime number?
When you're much more likely to get police assistance if you're a posh shop, and get police hassle if you're a shop that serves the local community (including selling booze)?
When you only see police patrols on the "nice streets" and the town centre, and if you live on an estate you'll mostly only ever see a pair of PCSOs?

Get real. Most of our esteemed OB have wiped their cocks on many of the communities of Brixton.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

boohoo said:


> But as separate estates or just as part of the same issue facing Cressingham? Central Hill and Knights Walk don't have local blogs that have big followings so separate stories would be good.



editor and Tricky Skills have done separate stories on Central Hill and Knights Walk. Also, IIRC, some Central Hill wallahs are working to get a website and a facebook page set up in the same way Cressingham Gdns has. Knights Walk is, from what I've heard, a bit less "active" because it's so small - less of a pool of talent to draw on.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 26, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Pretty pissed off to wake up this morning to find out that VIOLENCE dominated most of the media reporting. The bloody Guardian really should know better.
> 
> We need to build upon what was achieved yesterday.
> 
> BBuzz opinion piece.


Apologies in advance for this terribly despondent argument, but if there's no violence you get almost no coverage. If there's almost no coverage how do you go about building on what was achieved yesterday to get a good outcome? What's the process? I'm assuming your objective is rent controls and protection of social housing. How can you achieve that? Only the fringe parties support it, so voting won't work.  You have to persuade central government to legislate and they just won't do it unless we create a crisis. Maybe a rent strike? I doubt enough people would participate. If it was a workable idea I've have thought the groups who came yesterday would be calling for it. It doesn't appear to be on anybody's agenda, which I find very disheartening. As I said upthread you could try to hurt the local property market by torching the tube station, the police station and Foxtons. That might just wind the clock back to when most white professionals dismissed Brixton as a dangerous ghetto. But realistically it's too extreme...you need a large number of fearless violent people and the risk of fatalities on both sides is too high. 

Rioting is hateful but it deserves serious discussion because it gets results. The Chartists and Suffragettes used it to get the vote, the poll tax riot helped get Thatcher out and the 1981 Brixton riot resulted in lots of investment from central govt, which paid for the Rec amongst other things. It also gave Brixton the country's first community police consultative group and (allegedly) less tolerance of police racism and less stop and search.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> it's not a skill, it's a personal observation.  I have no problem with people from outside the area joining yesterdays protest, but I could observe that they were there. Of the three comments so far, two are from people who don't live in Brixton.  I have no problem with that, it's just an observation.


How do you instinctively know that someone is from outside the are?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

boohoo said:


> There was a story that they planned to assassinate the Prime Minister at the time.  (They did attack Streatham hill station!! - but then Streatham had a WSPU branch there)
> 
> Some historians suggest that it was the work of the larger peaceful Suffragists movement that actually won the vote.



Often male historians, I've noticed!


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> fair enough.  *Do you think the people in the newly done up flats in Rushcroft Road didn't get that impression?  Or the ones who want to buy something Foxtons are selling?*



I don't care what they think.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

editor said:


> How do you instinctively know that someone is from outside the are?


I think that's an odd question to be perfectly honest, what difference does that minor observation make to the general point I made?  Do you think it was wrong, are you going to claim every single person protesting was local?  Even PM, as evidenced upthread? Anyway, I didn't say anything about _instinctively_. 

But, to give a couple of examples, overhearing people asking for directions- "where are the arches", "where is the Village'.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I don't care what they think.


why not?  They are, or may be about to become, part of the Brixton communities.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

What about the teens at the busstop?  Do you care what they, and others born and bred locally, think when they hear some 22 year old from the Home Counties megaphoning "Whose Brixton, Our Brixton" along Atlantic Road?



< no, I don't know for sure, does it matter, somebody who heard the chanting was born and bred in the area>


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> What about the teens at the busstop- I'll guess they were born and bred locally.  Do you care what they think when they hear some 22 year old from the Home Counties megaphoning "Whose Brixton, Our Brixton" along Atlantic Road?



Will gentrification not affect him too then?


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> why not?  They are, or may be about to become, part of the Brixton communities.



You don't know what they may think about yesterday or anything else; go and speak with them then report back with additional information.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Will gentrification not affect him too then?


I edited but you're faster than me.  And ftr they were young women.

Of course gentrification will affect them.  But that doesn't mean their own thoughts can be discounted.  The chanting seems to me to exclude them.  And yes, I really can tell the difference between people brought up locally and those who've arrived as adults.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> I edited but you're faster than me.  And ftr they were young women.
> 
> Of course gentrification will affect them.  But that doesn't mean their own thoughts can be discounted.  The chanting seems to me to exclude them.  And yes, I really can tell the difference between people brought up locally and those who've arrived as adults.



But this suggests that a protest is only legitimate if every single person in the community has been consulted on it. which would be a logistical nightmare. I'm sure following Saturday a lot more people DO know about it and the issues than before it. That's the whole point of gathering together and making a lot of noise.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

poptyping said:


> Bit of an odd piece in terms of style as well. Hardly any quotes in it. Makes it read more like her version of the day than an 'objective' news report.



Just dropped a comment on the Brixton Blog piece asking the author to have a bit of self-respect.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> You don't know what they may think about yesterday or anything else; go and speak with them then report back with additional information.


It's you that said "I don't care what they think.", not me.  

Some of them post, or have posted here, or on the various blogs and so on.  It doesn't matter whether I agree with them or loathe every view they hold I don't blame them personally for neo-liberalism, gentrification, our co-operative council or any of the other structural issues at the heart of yesterdays protest.  Do you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> What about the teens at the busstop?  Do you care what they, and others born and bred locally, think when they hear some 22 year old from the Home Counties megaphoning "Whose Brixton, Our Brixton" along Atlantic Road?
> 
> 
> 
> < no, I don't know for sure, does it matter, somebody who heard the chanting was born and bred in the area>


you don't know if they meant 'protesters stealing my saturday' or 'police stealing my saturday' or 'employers stealing my saturday' or something else.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Whilst I agree in theory it's interesting how you have the skill to ascertain that those involved in the protest were from 'far and wide' whilst those wandering past were 'members of an awful lot of Brixton communities'.



It's newbie. He just *knows* these things.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> It's you that said "I don't care what they think.", not me.
> 
> Some of them post, or have posted here, or on the various blogs and so on.  It doesn't matter whether I agree with them or loathe every view they hold I don't blame them personally for neo-liberalism, gentrification, our co-operative council or any of the other structural issues at the heart of yesterdays protest.  Do you?



I can't cope with your supernatural powers of reasoning and deduction. Being able to read other peoples minds is a special skill, look after it.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> But this suggests that a protest is only legitimate if every single person in the community has been consulted on it. which would be a logistical nightmare. I'm sure following Saturday a lot more people DO know about it and the issues than before it. That's the whole point of gathering together and making a lot of noise.


uh huh, and I supported yesterdays protest.  But, as said, that particular chant made me uncomfortable, and appeared to be at odds with the position being put forward by the compere, which I think was close to what those groups who coalesced to organise the protest wanted to say.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just dropped a comment on the Brixton Blog piece asking the author to have a bit of self-respect.



I've just posted a comment as well.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't know if they meant 'protesters stealing my saturday' or 'police stealing my saturday' or 'employers stealing my saturday' or something else.


I only quoted part of the overheard conversation, but yes, I think I got a reasonable impression.  A woman who also overheard explained what was going on.  When she'd finished and moved on they rolled their eyes.  I don't know exactly what their thoughts were because I didn't ask them.  

That little incident happened to me.  I used it to illustrate a general point.  Folk can pick over the incident to prove me somehow incapable of observing what happened, or perhaps, could discuss the general point.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I can't cope with your supernatural powers of reasoning and deduction. Being able to read other peoples minds is a special skill, look after it.


I don't understand what you're trying to say.  

Do you support the chant of "Whose Brixton, Our Brixton", and if so why?


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> uh huh, and I supported yesterdays protest.  But, as said, that particular chant made me uncomfortable, and appeared to be at odds with the position being put forward by the compere, which I think was close to what those groups who coalesced to organise the protest wanted to say.



"Whose Brixton, Our Brixton"?

It's just a rehash of "Whose streets, our streets" from the original reclaim the streets.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> I only quoted part of the overheard conversation, but yes, I think I got a reasonable impression.  A woman who also overheard explained what was going on.  When she'd finished and moved on they rolled their eyes.  I don't know exactly what their thoughts were because I didn't ask them.
> 
> That little incident happened to me.  I used it to illustrate a general point.  Folk can pick over the incident to prove me somehow incapable of observing what happened, or perhaps, could discuss the general point.


what, that you use a single incident to generalise from, despite generalisations being at best only partially true? i do not believe the evidential basis for your point secures your point, i suggest it in fact weakens it.


----------



## ffsear (Apr 26, 2015)

Why did no one kick the shit out of the window breaker ?

Probably some wannabe anachist fuck who dosen't give 2 fucks about brixon


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> "Whose Brixton, Our Brixton"?
> 
> It's just a rehash of "Whose streets, our streets" from the original reclaim the streets.


but with different overtones and connotations.  A bunch of pedestrians liberating roads from traffic is not the same as members fairly narrow subcultures claiming an area where hundreds of thousands of people live for their own.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> what, that you use a single incident to generalise from, despite generalisations being at best only partially true? i do not believe the evidential basis for your point secures your point, i suggest it in fact weakens it.


but I didn't use a single incident, I tied it back to another one some years ago when another relatively spontaneous protest also closed the road and stopped the buses.  Don't the people affected matter?  Are those on the protest so much more important than the ones on whose behalf they claim to be acting, those who are being and will be affected by gentrifcation (or by cars in the case of RTS)?


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> but with different overtones and connotations.  A bunch of pedestrians liberating roads from traffic is not the same as members fairly narrow subcultures claiming an area where hundreds of thousands of people live for their own.



I'm not sure people have impromptu conferences analysing what popular protest chants might be unrepresentative whilst on a demonstration.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> I only quoted part of the overheard conversation, but yes, I think I got a reasonable impression.  A woman who also overheard explained what was going on.  When she'd finished and moved on they rolled their eyes.  I don't know exactly what their thoughts were because I didn't ask them.
> 
> That little incident happened to me.  I used it to illustrate a general point.  Folk can pick over the incident to prove me somehow incapable of observing what happened, or perhaps, could discuss the general point.


You sure seemed to be overhearing a lot of things on Saturday.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Why did no one kick the shit out of the window breaker ?
> 
> Probably some wannabe anachist fuck who dosen't give 2 fucks about brixon


I wouldn't stop anyone kicking in a Foxtons window and I certainly wouldn't inflict violence on them. Why should I?


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Why did no one kick the shit out of the window breaker ?
> 
> Probably some wannabe anachist fuck who dosen't give 2 fucks about brixon



Cock.


----------



## ffsear (Apr 26, 2015)

editor said:


> I wouldn't stop anyone kicking in a Foxtons window and I certainly wouldn't inflict violence on them. Why should I?



But why on a day when (some) of the world is watching a supposedly peaceful protest that has a point.   Peoples efforts have been undermined by 1 idiot


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm not sure people have impromptu conferences analysing what popular protest chants might be unrepresentative whilst on a demonstration.


well no, it would have been pointless to try to challenge it yesterday.  But I thought it worth raising it today because I read it as being divisive.  

Maybe I'm wrong, and part of the point of yesterday was to emphasise division between those who've been here a short time- the 'yuppies'- and those who've been here long enough to claim it's 'OUR Brixton'.  How long is that?


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

editor said:


> You sure seemed to be overhearing a lot of things on Saturday.


what?  I reported a chant that was repeated over and over again, and one snippet of overheard conversation, plus what the compere said.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> well no, it would have been pointless to try to challenge it yesterday.  But I thought it worth raising it today because I read it as being divisive.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, and part of the point of yesterday was to emphasise division between those who've been here a short time- the 'yuppies'- and those who've been here long enough to claim it's 'OUR Brixton'.  How long is that?


Not everyone who has been here a short time is a "yuppie."


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

ffsear said:


> But why on a day when (some) of the world is watching a supposedly peaceful protest that has a point.   Peoples efforts have been undermined by 1 idiot


Most people are grown up enough to realise that this one small incident was just that. A small incident.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

ffsear said:


> But why on a day when (some) of the world is watching a supposedly peaceful protest that has a point.   Peoples efforts have been undermined by 1 idiot


It's not something I'd do mysewlf, but I don't have much of an issue with using a Foxtons window as a symbol.  They have, after all, positioned themselves as a major figurehead for the problem.

'Yuppies Out', otoh, points a finger at some people from a presumed highground which may be perfectly justifiable but quite possibly isn't.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> but I didn't use a single incident, I tied it back to another one some years ago when another relatively spontaneous protest also closed the road and stopped the buses.  Don't the people affected matter?  Are those on the protest so much more important than the ones on whose behalf they claim to be acting, those who are being and will be affected by gentrifcation (or by cars in the case of RTS)?


when you say some years ago you in fact mean about 19 years ago. tbh if you fortuitously overheard a lot of people tutting and that then yes, you might have a point. but what i saw yesterday gave me the impression that the people around the demonstration were broadly supportive. although i have no doubt it was not universally popular - what is? - i neither saw nor heard any swell of disapprobation. and even you don't seem to have seen or heard much bar this solitary exchange. you're reading to much into it, frankly, as while these women may have been frustrated at being inconvenienced that hardly leads directly to their adopting the attitudes you imagine for them.


----------



## ffsear (Apr 26, 2015)

editor said:


> Most people are grown up enough to realise that this one small incident was just that. A small incident.




Yet it's become the icon of yesterday. Most of the reports I have read feature the picture of the smashed window .


----------



## shaman75 (Apr 26, 2015)

shaman75 said:


>




The original mobile video I uploaded of this to facebook and then made public so a friend could share it has gone a bit viral and currently has over 50K views...  About 40K were today.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Yet it's become the icon of yesterday. Most of the reports I have read feature the picture of the smashed window .


That's how the media works, Thankfully those who were at the event - and those with any real interest in the issues - generally manage to see a bit further than a photo of a relatively minor bit of damage.


----------



## ffsear (Apr 26, 2015)

But for raising awareness,  its less then helpful.  I thought that was the whole point


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

editor said:


> Not everyone who has been here a short time is a "yuppie."


well those who've been allocated social housing in the area won't feel themselves targetted.  Apart from that, who else has moved into the area recently that isn't, in some way or other, pricing out previous occupants?  

The driver, surely, for the discontent is that what was once a cheap area where relatively poorly paid people could afford to live and shop is changing to exclude them. That local rents and sales, and the incoming shops, price out all but 'yuppies', a shorthand word for those who can afford to buy into the area.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 26, 2015)

I don't know why people do  this 'oh, the protest was great and peaceful but it was all undermined by an idiot who [invariably breaks a windows of a capitalist interest]'. Such a load of liberal handwringing bullshit and it doesn't undermine it all. 

Most protests/demos would be pretty ineffective if they followed the state/police/authorities rules and restrictions on 'acceptable' protest.

Besides, breaking the window of an estate agent seems a more productive use of energy than being a broker of the financial kind.


----------



## shaman75 (Apr 26, 2015)

Some pics: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.972418869444551.1073741865.151184141568032&type=3


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> well those who've been allocated social housing in the area won't feel themselves targetted.  Apart from that, who else has moved into the area recently that isn't, in some way or other, pricing out previous occupants?


That doesn't make them a yuppie, ffs.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> when you say some years ago you in fact mean about 19 years ago. tbh if you fortuitously overheard a lot of people tutting and that then yes, you might have a point. but what i saw yesterday gave me the impression that the people around the demonstration were broadly supportive. although i have no doubt it was not universally popular - what is? - i neither saw nor heard any swell of disapprobation. and even you don't seem to have seen or heard much bar this solitary exchange. you're reading to much into it, frankly, as while these women may have been frustrated at being inconvenienced that hardly leads directly to their adopting the attitudes you imagine for them.


fair enough. You observed the storming of the police station and I didn't.  I used my observation to try to raise a general point, nothing more.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

The window smasher had a balaclava on (lol) which means they're as likely to be a state asset as an anarchist. They came tooled up for it, whoever it was.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

editor said:


> That doesn't make them a yuppie, ffs.


so what does?  What would you describe as a 'Yuppie' in this, 2015 in Brixton, context?  And how is that distinguished from the people who've spent huge sums in Rushcroft Rd or where the dole office used to be, who eat and yak in 'the Village' and so on?  

Who has moved into the area recently that isn't, in some way or other, pricing out previous occupants?


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

shaman75 said:


> Some pics



Great photoset. We have had some outstanding stuff from yesterday.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

I got a little emotional when the Guinness Trust campaigners were cheered into the square yesterday.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 26, 2015)

The naivety and hypocrisy is getting too much. The protesting was characterized by violence, it wasn't just one naughty person FFS! There was the town hall incident, the police station incident, the payday loans one, 3 broken windows, people throwing cans at the officer who tried to interfere with the sound system next to the square, etc. Chanting 'fuck the police' isn't exactly non-violent either. 

Most people who went yesterday didn't actually protest. They just had a nice party in the sun. Nobody seems to have a clue about how the event might resolve the housing crisis. They haven't thought it through. They listened to speeches and music and chatted over lunch, took photos and told themselves they'd been raising issues and sending a message. It's protesting for the selfie generation. The main thing is that you can say you were there and you took photos and tweeted them. How about admitting that what you did will achieve nothing except to make you feel important?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 26, 2015)

That covers most of the usual bases apart from "middle class and don't even come from the area". Admittedly that one would be a bit hard to support in the circumstances.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

editor said:


> View attachment 70754
> 
> I got a little emotional when the Guinness Trust campaigners were cheered into the square yesterday.



Smoke gets in your eyes, I think Brian Ferry did a song about it.

When the marches entered the square it was powerful. The entire day was well organised and bodes well for the future.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Smoke gets in your eyes, I think Brian Ferry did a song about it.
> 
> When the marches entered the square it was powerful. The entire day was well organised and bodes well for the future.


i don't agree. the police station bit needs a bit of tightening up so boarders not repelled next time


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The naivety and hypocrisy is getting too much. The protesting was characterized by violence, it wasn't just one naughty person FFS! There was the town hall incident, the police station incident, the payday loans one, 3 broken windows, people throwing cans at the officer who tried to interfere with the sound system next to the square, etc. Chanting 'fuck the police' isn't exactly non-violent either.
> 
> Most people who went yesterday didn't actually protest. They just had a nice party in the sun. Nobody seems to have a clue about how the event might resolve the housing crisis. They haven't thought it through. They listened to speeches and music and chatted over lunch, took photos and told themselves they'd been raising issues and sending a message. It's protesting for the selfie generation. The main thing is that you can say you were there and you took photos and tweeted them. How about admitting that what you did will achieve nothing except to make you feel important?



If you're on the side of Foxton's and the police then fuck you. You're the enemy.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Most people who went yesterday didn't actually protest. They just had a nice party in the sun. Nobody seems to have a clue about how the event might resolve the housing crisis. They haven't thought it through. They listened to speeches and music and chatted over lunch, took photos and told themselves they'd been raising issues and sending a message. It's protesting for the selfie generation. The main thing is that you can say you were there and you took photos and tweeted them. How about admitting that what you did will achieve nothing except to make you feel important?


I await with keen interest the updated guidelines on how to successfully participate in a protest from Mr Patronising O' Twat.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 26, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The naivety and hypocrisy is getting too much. <snip>
> 
> Chanting 'fuck the police' isn't exactly non-violent either.<snip>



How is chanting supposed to be 'violent'?

Is it a matter of tone of voice or something?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> I don't understand what you're trying to say.
> 
> Do you support the chant of "Whose Brixton, Our Brixton", and if so why?



Who was chanting it?
Unless it was a mono-class, mono-cultural group, then your whining is irrelevant, and as the chanters weren't mono-class or mono-cultural (ascertainable from pictures and copious video)...


----------



## shaman75 (Apr 26, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The naivety and hypocrisy is getting too much. The protesting was characterized by violence, it wasn't just one naughty person FFS! There was the town hall incident, the police station incident, the payday loans one, 3 broken windows, people throwing cans at the officer who tried to interfere with the sound system next to the square, etc. Chanting 'fuck the police' isn't exactly non-violent either.
> 
> Most people who went yesterday didn't actually protest. They just had a nice party in the sun. Nobody seems to have a clue about how the event might resolve the housing crisis. They haven't thought it through. They listened to speeches and music and chatted over lunch, took photos and told themselves they'd been raising issues and sending a message. It's protesting for the selfie generation. The main thing is that you can say you were there and you took photos and tweeted them. How about admitting that what you did will achieve nothing except to make you feel important?



They might not have thought things through, but they did nearly shut the police station and take over the town hall, both of which might have been more likely to be successful if the protesting was characterised by violence, rather than by most people just having a nice party in the sun.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

editor said:


> You sure seemed to be overhearing a lot of things on Saturday.



He's obviously a nosy cunt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> well no, it would have been pointless to try to challenge it yesterday.  But I thought it worth raising it today because I read it as being divisive.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, and part of the point of yesterday was to emphasise division between those who've been here a short time- the 'yuppies'- and those who've been here long enough to claim it's 'OUR Brixton'.  How long is that?



It's not about how long you've been here, it's about how you interact (or not) with the existing community. One of the "selling points" of some of the pricey new developments is their closeness to what we call "nu Brixton", allowing new residents to isolate themselves from "old Brixton" as effectively as if they were just visiting _flaneurs_.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Yet it's become the icon of yesterday. Most of the reports I have read feature the picture of the smashed window .



It's become an "icon" because it serves the media's purpose to make it an icon. Why do you think that is?


----------



## shaman75 (Apr 26, 2015)

Some chanting going on here


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Who was chanting it?
> Unless it was a mono-class, mono-cultural group, then your whining is irrelevant, and as the chanters weren't mono-class or mono-cultural (ascertainable from pictures and copious video)...


the people chanting were those seeking claim "OUR Brixton" to the exclusion of other people.  I'd have thought that was obvious, even just from youtube or flikr.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> well those who've been allocated social housing in the area won't feel themselves targetted.



We're already targeted, by people with far more power to damage us than a disparate group of protesters. it's one of the reasons some people marched yesterday,for crying out loud! 



> Apart from that, who else has moved into the area recently that isn't, in some way or other, pricing out previous occupants?
> 
> The driver, surely, for the discontent is that what was once a cheap area where relatively poorly paid people could afford to live and shop is changing to exclude them. That local rents and sales, and the incoming shops, price out all but 'yuppies', a shorthand word for those who can afford to buy into the area.



What drives the change?


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not about how long you've been here, it's about how you interact (or not) with the existing community. One of the "selling points" of some of the pricey new developments is their closeness to what we call "nu Brixton", allowing new residents to isolate themselves from "old Brixton" as effectively as if they were just visiting _flaneurs_.


and?  That's just nonsense.  No-one was protesting yesterday because some newly arrived residents don't "interact" like there's some sort of acceptability test or something, based on "the existing community", whatever that means.  

What's relevant is that rents and prices are being pushed ever higher and existing residents and businesses are being driven out because policy or because they can't afford to stay.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> the people chanting were those seeking claim "OUR Brixton" to the exclusion of other people.  I'd have thought that was obvious, even
> just from youtube or flikr.



I take it to mean "our" as in "the people's", not the power of capital etc


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The naivety and hypocrisy is getting too much. The protesting was characterized by violence, it wasn't just one naughty person FFS! There was the town hall incident, the police station incident, the payday loans one, 3 broken windows, people throwing cans at the officer who tried to interfere with the sound system next to the square, etc. Chanting 'fuck the police' isn't exactly non-violent either.



What's getting too much is your bed-wetting liberal conflation of a handful of isolated incidents into a representation of the #reclaimbrixton demo as "characterised by violence". 



> Most people who went yesterday didn't actually protest. They just had a nice party in the sun. Nobody seems to have a clue about how the event might resolve the housing crisis.



The remit of the event wasn't to resolve the housing crisis, it was to bring together disparate communities from across the borough, so that bridges can be built and so that *with the aid of such solidarities*, solutions *can* be sought. 



> They haven't thought it through. They listened to speeches and music and chatted over lunch, took photos and told themselves they'd been raising issues and sending a message. It's protesting for the selfie generation. The main thing is that you can say you were there and you took photos and tweeted them. How about admitting that what you did will achieve nothing except to make you feel important?



Have you done a lot of protesting? Over the 35+ years of my adult life, I've seen loads of protests, from fluffy ones you'd expect to change nothing, to violent ones you *know* will bring about change. the thing all those hundreds of protests had in common was that *all* of them brought about change, because people are instrumental animals with a keen mind for making choices that serve their own interests. You don't go on even the mildest of protests to make yourself feel important - that'd be a rather stupid risk in a state where the primary function of the police is to enforce defence of private property and privilege - you go because a cause matters enough to you to risk getting gassed, or beaten or nicked.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

I've posted up some pics from the protest. 










































http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/04/...tos-from-windrush-square-and-central-brixton/


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## boohoo (Apr 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Often male historians, I've noticed!


yes - Martin Pugh springs to mind! Still he is a good historian even if I don't agree with him a lot!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> and?  That's just nonsense.  No-one was protesting yesterday because some newly arrived residents don't "interact" like there's some sort of acceptability test or something, based on "the existing community", whatever that means.
> 
> What's relevant is that rents and prices are being pushed ever higher and existing residents and businesses are being driven out because policy or because they can't afford to stay.



As ever, you've missed the point.
When you have a bloc within a community who don't interact with the rest of that community, two messages get sent:
1) Other people within that broader community are sent the message that those who don't interact, don't *want* to,and
2) People like-minded to the non-interactors get the message that there's a place for them.

That's not my theory, by the way, that's what the work of geographer prof Doreen Massey has shown.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> the people chanting were those seeking claim "OUR Brixton" to the exclusion of other people.  I'd have thought that was obvious, even just from youtube or flikr.


To the exclusion of property developers and those seeking to evict or exploit them, you div.


----------



## pesh (Apr 26, 2015)

am I supposed to give a fuck about 2 teenagers with an aversion to walking being mildly inconvienced?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

boohoo said:


> yes - Martin Pugh springs to mind! Still he is a good historian even if I don't agree with him a lot!



I read his book about the Pankhursts. it was..interesting.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I read his book about the Pankhursts. it was..interesting.



His book on Women's history post 1915 is very good.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

Interesting piece here: 
Gentrification in Brixton: who wins, who loses and who's to blame?


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> I take it to mean "our" as in "the people's", not the power of capital etc





editor said:


> To the exclusion of property developers and those seeking to evict or exploit them, you div.



Capital, property developers and so on weren't listening.  Capital can't listen, thinking of property developers as individuals, as people who listen, is pointless.  

Those chants were aimed at, and heard by, people in Brixton, and it was quite plain that a claim was being staked "OUR Brixton".  

If the target of the chanting had been Lambeth council, or Network Rail, or Foxtons then fine, no problem at all.  Even general attacks on capital and stuff.

You seem to want to defend divisive chants by a small proportion of protestors, of whom there were only maybe a couple of thousand in total drawn from a population of hundreds of thousands. How do all the rest get engaged- by chanting that the area belongs to a few members of noisy subcultures.  I don't think so.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

pesh said:


> am I supposed to give a fuck about 2 teenagers with an aversion to walking being mildly inconvienced?


IMHO no.

Sorry as I feel for anyone who was inconvenienced, yesterday's demonstration gave plenty of very widely covered notice.  If 3 presumably literate and net-using teenagers couldn't make other arrangements, tough.

An elderly woman from the same estate as me was on the protest, and she chose to leave quite early so that she'd be able to get a bus back up the hill (before they were diverted).

Also, let it be remembered that one woman trying to drive through Brixton to visit her mother in hospital was allowed through (protestors got out of her way), after she explained what her situation was.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> Capital, property developers and so on weren't listening.  Capital can't listen, thinking of property developers as individuals, as people who listen, is pointless.
> 
> Those chants were aimed at, and heard by, people in Brixton, and it was quite plain that a claim was being staked "OUR Brixton".
> 
> ...



I wasn't there, but I reckon you're over thinking it a bit.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> I wasn't there, but I reckon you're over thinking it a bit.


Absolutely. It looks like things seem strange in Newbie World.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> Capital, property developers and so on weren't listening.  Capital can't listen, thinking of property developers as individuals, as people who listen, is pointless.
> 
> Those chants were aimed at, and heard by, people in Brixton, and it was quite plain that a claim was being staked "OUR Brixton".
> 
> ...


It's pretty clearly based on the common chant "whose streets? our streets!" that happens at pretty much every demo. I think you are over-egging any "divisive" aspect here; "our" doesn't refer to any particular subset of people, it means people generally, and I'd be surprised if any significant number of listeners misunderstood that. I've not even seen that interpretation in the Mail etc.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 26, 2015)

Whose streets I have always taken to mean the public, not the state etc. 

It's not heavily caveated with asterisks and stuff.


----------



## Maharani (Apr 26, 2015)

ffsear said:


> But why on a day when (some) of the world is watching a supposedly peaceful protest that has a point.   Peoples efforts have been undermined by 1 idiot


Read the thread...


----------



## boohoo (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> "Whose Brixton, Our Brixton"?
> 
> It's just a rehash of "Whose streets, our streets" from the original reclaim the streets.



God  I don't remember ever having heard the chant - I must have been right pissed at the Reclaim the streets I went to.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

Whose Brixton?

Yours, mine, everybody's, regardless of income or background.  It can be big enough for all of us.  As long as nobody gets too greedy, that is.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 26, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Whose Brixton?
> 
> Yours, mine, everybody's, regardless of income or background.  It can be big enough for all of us.  As long as nobody gets too greedy, that is.



Ace point, Greebo!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> Capital, property developers and so on weren't listening.  Capital can't listen, thinking of property developers as individuals, as people who listen, is pointless.
> 
> Those chants were aimed at, and heard by, people in Brixton, and it was quite plain that a claim was being staked "OUR Brixton"
> If the target of the chanting had been Lambeth council, or Network Rail, or Foxtons then fine, no problem at all.  Even general attacks on capital and stuff.
> ...


i don't know where you get the notion that hundreds of thousands of people live in brixton from. but a word to the wise: it is bollocks that even a hundred thousand people live in brixton. it's maybe 60,000 on the basis of 'brixton' being the wards of ferndale, brixton hill, tulse hill and coldharbour. the map of lambeth at http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Lambeth Wards.jpg shows brixton being in coldharbour ward (15,842 in 2011) but there you go


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 26, 2015)

I was on the street near to the pavement on the first time the protesters took the junction.   People waiting for buses were curious on the whole and not pissed off.   Of course that's just my opinion at that time which was probably about 2pm.	Might have varied later.   When you hear a chant like 'whose streets our streets'   and you're not a protester maybe it makes you think.	Maybe it pisses you off.   Maybe you think, like the guy who runs the shop opposite Forest Hill station when he asked about my day and what I'd been up to 'but darling you can't stop that type of business gentrifying an area' 

Later in the afternoon (I left early to go shop with my daughter) we and others had a long wait at the bus stop up Effra Road for a 37.   Many people were walking rather than wait so long for a bus.  Their mood wasn't angry.	 

As Greebo  pointed out - younger people who are internet literate were most likely aware of events and could choose to be out of the area
Others unaware must have clocked windrush square setting up for hours - at that point make your leaving plans.	Some people will be genuinely inconvenienced and in difficulty and I'm genuinely sorry for their trouble.   But as others point out upthread, there are bigger inconveniences being cause in Brixton, in Hackney, all over London as money is diverted towards the top away from communities and living for more and more becomes more and more precarious


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

Some dangerous stuff going on here;


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## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know where you get the notion that hundreds of thousands of people live in brixton from. but a word to the wise: it is bollocks that even a hundred thousand people live in brixton. it's maybe 60,000 on the basis of 'brixton' being the wards of ferndale, brixton hill, tulse hill and coldharbour. the map of lambeth at http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Lambeth Wards.jpg shows brixton being in coldharbour ward (15,842 in 2011) but there you go


oh - and newbie it's disheartening that when you make a claim that can be checked you're found wanting. it makes me wonder about the other claims you make which can't be so readily verified.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Some dangerous stuff going on here <snip>


All kinds of people having a good time together, neither paying for it, nor doing serious harm... down with this sort of thing!


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> I wasn't there, but I reckon you're over thinking it a bit.


well we'll see, won't we, whether this has real traction or is simply a social whirl for those who use Brixton as a plaything. That's happened before, this place being the icon it is. 

Maybe I'm the only person in the area who felt alienated by the chanting, but nobody has said anything so far that reduces that feeling, and comparisons to a minor subculture from some years ago certainly don't work. I don't know how long the chanters have lived here, nor how much they "interact (or not) with the existing community", nor to what extent the local communities wish to interact with them.  But I'm a bit doubtful that their efforts will amount to much if they don't include the rest of us.


----------



## ffsear (Apr 26, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Read the thread...




Would love to but been supporting the London marathon mostly today.  Real people, fighting real issues


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Would love to but been supporting the London marathon mostly today.  Real people, fighting real issues


hardworking families intent on damaging their knees.


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## TopCat (Apr 26, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Would love to but been supporting the London marathon mostly today.  Real people, fighting real issues


Fucking idiots the lots of them.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

ffsear said:


> Would love to but been supporting the London marathon mostly today.  Real people, fighting real issues


Sure they were.  Okay, maybe a few who were raising money for charity, you can have those.  But as for the rest... 

So how can you tell me that we don't count
or say that Brixton isn't mine?
Let me take you by the hand and guide you through the streets of Brixton,
I'll show you plenty
that'll make you change your mind.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

boohoo said:


> God  I don't remember ever having heard the chant - I must have been right pissed at the Reclaim the streets I went to.



It's a popular chant. Even the fash are known to have used it against muslims. 

Maybe it pre-exists reclaim the streets. Maybe reclaim the streets were coined after _it_.


----------



## T & P (Apr 26, 2015)

editor said:


> How do you instinctively know that someone is from outside the are?


Well, others seem to possess that very power whenever they're judging whether customers of some unpopular businesses in the Village might be locals or tourists.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2015)

My favourite placard was one that read "Working class lives matter". I think I will have this made into a fuck off banner with a few working class hero faces above.


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## TopCat (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> It's a popular chant. Even the fash are known to have used it against muslims.
> 
> Maybe it pre-exists reclaim the streets. Maybe reclaim the streets were coined after _it_.


I remember this chant in Brixton 30 years ago after Cherry Groce was shot and the area went up.


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> "Whose Brixton, Our Brixton"?
> 
> It's just a rehash of "Whose streets, our streets" from the original reclaim the streets.


surely the ideal is to get everyone, rich, young, poor, old, etc, etc wanting change in brixton. wanting to screw the greedy landlords, the heartless local politicians. no matter how long someone has been in brixton, if you live there you have a right to say "we don;t want our town turned into a rich ghetto". keep fighting!


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> It's a popular chant. Even the fash are known to have used it against muslims.
> 
> Maybe it pre-exists reclaim the streets. Maybe reclaim the streets were coined after _it_.



I never heard it on any RTS actions. First I became aware of it was the student demos in 2010.


----------



## cesare (Apr 26, 2015)

It was being used way before the studes got active.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> surely the ideal is to get everyone, rich, young, poor, old, etc, etc wanting change in brixton. wanting to screw the greedy landlords, the heartless local politicians. no matter how long someone has been in brixton, if you live there you have a right to say "we don;t want our town turned into a rich ghetto". keep fighting!



Well it excludes those who have moved there because of gentrification. It's trendy Brixton now. It'll end up like Hoxton.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2015)

It was anarchists involved with 121 who were yelling it in 198five during the riots.


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## BigMoaner (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Well it excludes those who have moved there because of gentrification. It's trendy Brixton now. It'll end up like Hoxton.




it's way beyond hoxton even now, imo


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 26, 2015)

cesare said:


> It was being used way before the studes got active.



Fairynuff


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## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> I never heard it on any RTS actions. First I became aware of it was the student demos in 2010.



I've already back pedalled and prepared to say I'm wrong on that. I've heard it on and off on quite a few demos though. After a while they become a blur.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> it's way beyond hoxton even now, imo



Really? Tbf I think I've been to Brixton twice in the last ten years.


----------



## cuppa tee (Apr 26, 2015)

funny ... "dead rabbit on a stick, no trouble"* never caught on
( * unspecified anarchist faction 1978 )


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 26, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Do you have any contacts for any of the groups affected by large private rents (such as Dorcester Court?)



Southwark and Lambeth Housing Action

As for more info on groups. This has been all covered by Brixton Buzz and other media. 

As Greebo says there is only so much that can be done. This last week I have been on three protests - Guinness Trust, Clapham eviction resistance and helping out on Reclaim Brixton. 

The thing is how much coverage does it get to make the authorities listen?


----------



## reubeniz (Apr 26, 2015)

With regards to the bike sound system. Who are they and can we help.

Nice little rig they had. Fairly clear sound with a fair bit of a punch, bass wise.  They were well up for random people chatting over the mic and even sticking their own phones to play tunes ( cant think of many rigs that open lol )

I for 1 would certainly contribute to see them back on the road and to celebrate to completion of this i may post some photos of flying hats 

Not sure of the damage caused to it but at the point this picture was taken its not totally trashed.

http://www.demotix.com/news/7446548/dancing-streets-brixton-reclaim-brixton-protest#media-7446662

 The bass speaker, amplifier, crossover etc  (inside the box) are the most expensive parts. I cant see (in the photo) if the tweeter and midrange horns are damaged. The tweeter is a Wide Dispersion Piezo Horn Tweeter ( £15 i remember getting several from maplins years ago  ).  The midrange is a bit of a mashup but prob not expensive to replace.

Its the time and hassle.  If the police have their bike and rig, then they have to get it back. Hopefully without going down a long process/added expense etc 

Going by the stickers they get about so someone will know them.  When i spoke to 1 of them (about what set up they were running, sound wise) he said it wasn't his but suggested it had a website called peddle...... something ( he wasn't sure what it was )







[/IMG] 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	












































I also have some vids of them in the street halfway between the Town Hall and the Square. May stick them up with the hat pics if this is successful.  Someone has already post a clip up in this thread.  Quality stuff.  

As mentioned, who are they?

Are they ok?

Do they need help?

I may even have a small round piezo  tweeter and an 8ohm 8in driver they can have (guess they whant 4ohm ideally ). Maybe if i can find it i have a JBL tweeter but it needs a new diaphragm  JBL 2404H .  A bit over kill for this set up tho.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> I never heard it on any RTS actions. First I became aware of it was the student demos in 2010.


It's way older than that. It was definitely in use in the early/mid 2000s





> There were chants of “Whose Streets? Our Streets!”
> https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/06/312853.html


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=r9XGjh4eypcC&pg=PT303&lpg=PT303&dq=reclaim+the+streets+"whose+streets+our+streets"&source=bl&ots=wHIy7lrvn1&sig=uENY22RRpyUhigJlO0WcWTxN2mo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1Dc9Vff_MNfUapy8gLgO&ved=0CCAQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=reclaim the streets "whose streets our streets"&f=false


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> I enjoyed yesterday, it was good, old fashioned fun.  And good to see a cross section (albeit fairly narrow) of the communities pulling together.
> 
> There were members of an awful lot of Brixton communities walking past, taking no notice, ignoring and being ignored.  If this is to make a difference, and I hope it does, they have to be engaged and their rights (for want of a better word) have to be considered.  Not just in the abstract but properly, responsibly on future occasions like yesterday.
> 
> Alternatively, if it's just a party for hundreds or thousands of locals and their mates from far and wide, then fine, but the campaigns, the real, serious self-interest campaigns with a lot to lose, the ones prayed in aid throughout the day, they'll get little except harm from being associated with it.



I was there from 10am.

I was talking to people throughout the day who asked what it was about.

I disagree it was a narrow cross section of communities. It was Council tenants, shopkeepers, private renters and local political activists among others.

It was kept peaceful on Windrush sq.

There are a lot of younger people out there across London who are frustrated and have had enough. What I did notice was the number of younger people protesting. They are not listened to. They have had the worst of it in this recession.

As I hope to show in my photos the attempt to take over Town Hall was not just a few militants but a large crowd. What does surprise me is the growing anger that I see when I talk to people about what is happening to London.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

Don't be identifying people. Let the old bill do their own leg work.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> fair enough.  Do you think the people in the newly done up flats in Rushcroft Road didn't get that impression?  Or the ones who want to buy something Foxtons are selling?



Did I see anyone attacking individuals? No

Some people attacked symbols of what is wrong with London- Foxtons.

Secondly I did talk to a young professional for example on the day - a Doctor- she said she finds it difficult to afford to live in London.

On the day when I was stewarding the Guinness Trust march to square I made sure a car got through that had two women who wanted to get to the new building next to Clifton Mansions. Invited them to the event on square. Those flats are owned by Lexadon so they will be rented out. They arer therefore paying through the nose for it to fill greedy Lexadon coffers.

Reclaim Brixton is a loose group. Some , as one said recently , are reasonably well off, but being reasonably well off is now not enough in central London.

I do however think there is a section of the middle class who are complacent. They know what the problems are but do not what any changes in reality. It does not affect them much.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Don't be identifying people. Let the old bill do their own leg work.



I try not to. I use my photos to show more about what happens. My side rather than the mainstream news media.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 26, 2015)

I am very well off compared to many who were there.  I am a university lecturer and earn a decent amount of £.  (housing still takes a massive % of my income though) 
I was there for a number of reasons -
-solidarity with others who are not in secure housing positions (those I know and those I don't know )
-solidarity with all of us in London who feel that £ has flowed upwards to a small % of individuals and business who have increasing power to shape the fabric of spaces and homes to the detriment of many
-solidarity with my young adult daughter and her generation of renters  - she's already been evicted once (suspect that her very low rent was the main factor) and cannot now afford the flat she is in (estate agents making loads of money out of getting her in and out of the contract)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> surely the ideal is to get everyone, rich, young, poor, old, etc, etc wanting change in brixton. wanting to screw the greedy landlords, the heartless local politicians. no matter how long someone has been in brixton, if you live there you have a right to say "we don;t want our town turned into a rich ghetto". keep fighting!



More accurately, perhaps, "we don't want London turned into a rich white ghetto".


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I try not to. I use my photos to show more about what happens. My side rather than the mainstream news media.



Use some identification-skewing software then.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

Actually even that's pointless as the old bill can unscramble it. 

You would have to remove people's faces then create a new image with the faces missing and replace them with others like Santa or Charles Manson.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

dp


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> I remember this chant in Brixton 30 years ago after Cherry Groce was shot and the area went up.


your memory is obviously less shot than mine 

anyway, 'whose streets' or 'whose Brixton'.  There's a difference.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> your memory is obviously less shot than mine
> 
> anyway, 'whose streets' or 'whose Brixton'.  There's a difference.



Only if you're inward looking and with no class analysis.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Well it excludes those who have moved there because of gentrification. It's trendy Brixton now. It'll end up like Hoxton.



And like Hoxton, the roots spread further afield, seeking out the little corners where gentrification hasn't yet fully taken root. The Brixton Foxtons wanker mentioned in the New Statesman web article who said "soon it'll all be private housing" has a point, however much of a vapid cunt he is - if the working class (and the renters are mostly w/c IME) on the estates no longer feel welcome in Brixton, then there's very little disincentive for them to do a deal with Foxtons w/r/t exercising RtB, taking the money and heading north with their cut, and very little incentive bar need for staying in the borough beyond family ties.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> And like Hoxton, the roots spread further afield, seeking out the little corners where gentrification hasn't yet fully taken root. The Brixton Foxtons wanker mentioned in the New Statesman web article who said "soon it'll all be private housing" has a point, however much of a vapid cunt he is - if the working class (and the renters are mostly w/c IME) on the estates no longer feel welcome in Brixton, then there's very little disincentive for them to do a deal with Foxtons w/r/t exercising RtB, taking the money and heading north with their cut, and very little incentive bar need for staying in the borough beyond family ties.



Which then fucks over those who *do* very much want to stay there as being *awkward*.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Did I see anyone attacking individuals? No


I didn't suggest anything like that happened, in the bit you quoted I was on about chanting, nothing else.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I try not to. I use my photos to show more about what happens. My side rather than the mainstream news media.



I think C66 was referring to the photos reubeniz posted, which were showing a lot of faces.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Which then fucks over those who *do* very much want to stay there as being *awkward*.



Yep.
Fortunately there appears to be a lot of solidarity among estate-dwellers in Lambeth, with people wanting to "fight the power" rather than yielding to it, but how long that'll last in the face of rampant demographic change is anybody's guess.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

Well it's two things really. Those who have a camera in their hand as an action happens aren't involved in that action as they're more a 'witness'.

Their choice to publish the images may well hamper, rather then help, their campaign and those whose front doors get put through won't be thankful for their 15 mins of fame. 

I loathe the fact everyone has a camera nowadays.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I am very well off compared to many who were there.  I am a university lecturer and earn a decent amount of £.  (housing still takes a massive % of my income though)
> I was there for a number of reasons -
> -solidarity with others who are not in secure housing positions (those I know and those I don't know )
> -solidarity with all of us in London who feel that £ has flowed upwards to a small % of individuals and business who have increasing power to shape the fabric of spaces and homes to the detriment of many
> -solidarity with my young adult daughter and her generation of renters  - she's already been evicted once (suspect that her very low rent was the main factor) and cannot now afford the flat she is in (estate agents making loads of money out of getting her in and out of the contract)



Letting agencies and agents are a cancer. If people really want to know why Foxtons' window being smashed was a great symbolic act, they don't need to go any further than the inflated "fees" charged for everything from hand-over to AST renewal to "paperwork". Leeches need to be burned off.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Actually even that's pointless as the old bill can unscramble it.
> 
> You would have to remove people's faces then create a new image with the faces missing and replace them with others like Santa or Charles Manson.



Or various high-ranking members of the Met.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Only if you're inward looking and with no class analysis.



People who whine about divisiveness often (oddly, given their whining) don't do "class analysis".


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Only if you're inward looking and with no class analysis.


tosh. 

'Our streets' is a reasonable chant from a bunch of people who've occupied the streets in protest, whether about cars, student fees or something else. The street(s) have been taken over and the people who've taken them are right in claiming they're 'our streets'.

'Our Brixton' is very different.  

and while there are aspects of class involved here I don't think deploying class as part of this discussion will achieve anything other than division.  Neither existing communities nor any of the wave after wave of incomers are delineated by class, and this notion that all incomers are m/c is just lazy stereotyping.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I was there from 10am.
> 
> I was talking to people throughout the day who asked what it was about.
> 
> ...


Well done you for the effort you put in. Big respect.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> tosh.
> 
> 'Our streets' is a reasonable chant from a bunch of people who've occupied the streets in protest, whether about cars, student fees or something else. The street(s) have been taken over and the people who've taken them are right in claiming they're 'our streets'.
> 
> ...



AFAIK the fight isn't against all incomers beyond property developers wanting to kick out those in social housing for high returns on lucrative land values. Perhaps you're lucky enough to be a property owner in Lambeth in which case I'd rather have those on the streets on Sat fighting my corner if I was in social housing and the bulldozers were at my door than a do nothing whinger like yourself.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2015)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I am very well off compared to many who were there.  I am a university lecturer and earn a decent amount of £.  (housing still takes a massive % of my income though)
> I was there for a number of reasons -
> -solidarity with others who are not in secure housing positions (those I know and those I don't know )
> -solidarity with all of us in London who feel that £ has flowed upwards to a small % of individuals and business who have increasing power to shape the fabric of spaces and homes to the detriment of many
> -solidarity with my young adult daughter and her generation of renters  - she's already been evicted once (suspect that her very low rent was the main factor) and cannot now afford the flat she is in (estate agents making loads of money out of getting her in and out of the contract)


Good to meet you (again). Sorry I must have been pissed before when we met.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Well it's two things really. Those who have a camera in their hand as an action happens aren't involved in that action as they're more a 'witness'.
> 
> Their choice to publish the images may well hamper, rather then help, their campaign and those whose front doors get put through won't be thankful for their 15 mins of fame.
> 
> I loathe the fact everyone has a camera nowadays.



I don't loathe the fact that seemingly everyone has a camera, but I do get annoyed at how few people think to obscure faces or crop their pictures so as to minimise exposure.
Also, w/r/t reversing pixellation etc, IIRC that's possible, but only via the same algorithms you've used (algorithms for effects vary between software manufacturers, apparently - so I've been told, so unless you've used photoshop, and the piggies use photoshop to undo it, they won't necessarily get a usable image, despite how the people on NCIS and other cop shows always manage it!).


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> tosh.
> 
> 'Our streets' is a reasonable chant from a bunch of people who've occupied the streets in protest, whether about cars, student fees or something else. The street(s) have been taken over and the people who've taken them are right in claiming they're 'our streets'.
> 
> ...


Newbie does not have a class analysis. Telling that.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Well it's two things really. Those who have a camera in their hand as an action happens aren't involved in that action as they're more a 'witness'.<snip>
> 
> I loathe the fact everyone has a camera nowadays.


I had a camera, a campaign T shirt (with back print as well as front print), a tongue in my head, and a placard - the last few of these were used more than the first one mentioned.  And the uncropped pictures were purely for my own use.  Will you demand that every shot on Reclaim Brixton's FB group page is taken down too?

Anyone worried about being seen should bear in mind that central Brixton (including Windrush Square) has heavy CCTV coverage  all the time - be careful out there.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> AFAIK the fight isn't against all incomers beyond property developers wanting to kick out those in social housing for high returns on lucrative land values. Perhaps you're lucky enough to be a property owner in Lambeth in which case I'd rather have those on the streets on Sat fighting my corner if I was in social housing and the bulldozers were at my door than a do nothing whinger like yourself.



And given that at the moment there are 6 estates in Lambeth threatened with the bulldozer, including the one Greebo and I live on, I'd rather have people with fire in their bellies on my side than do-nothing whingers like newbie too.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> AFAIK the fight isn't against all incomers beyond property developers wanting to kick out those in social housing for high returns on lucrative land values. Perhaps you're lucky enough to be a property owner in Lambeth in which case I'd rather have those on the streets on Sat fighting my corner if I was in social housing and the bulldozers were at my door than a do nothing whinger like yourself.


As I said earlier, the compere went out of her way to stress that this wasn't an argument between different parts of the Brixton population.  I think that was the agreed position of the organised groups who helped put the event together.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Newbie does not have a class analysis. Telling that.



Some people will do anything to avoid examining the issue of class. Often those people are those who recognise the relevance of class, but refuse to engage with it because it doesn't facilitate their own views or wishes. The modern Labour Party are probably the biggest exemplars of the trend, but are far from the only people engaging in what is basically a case of sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending that they can't hear.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Good to meet you (again). Sorry I must have been pissed before when we met.


I will be disappointed if you remember me next time we meet!


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Some people will do anything to avoid examining the issue of class. Often those people are those who recognise the relevance of class, but refuse to engage with it because it doesn't facilitate their own views or wishes. The modern Labour Party are probably the biggest exemplars of the trend, but are far from the only people engaging in what is basically a case of sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending that they can't hear.


Whilst they pretend they can't hear we can ignore them as they are utterly irrelevant. Consigned to the wheelie bin of history.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

Greebo said:


> I had a camera, a campaign T shirt (with back print as well as front print), a tongue in my head, and a placard - the last few of these were used more than the first one mentioned.  And the uncropped pictures were purely for my own use.  Will you demand that every shot on Reclaim Brixton's FB group page is taken down too?
> 
> Anyone worried about being seen should bear in mind that central Brixton (including Windrush Square) has heavy CCTV coverage  all the time - be careful out there.



I think you missed me saying 'during an action'. Hopefully It's obvious what I mean by that.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Newbie does not have a class analysis. Telling that.



I didn't say i don't have one, I said I don't think it's particularly relevant in the context of this discussion. 

Maybe I'm wrong on that, so what is the 'class analysis' that I should bring to bear on this issue?  The previous population is w/c and the newly arrived are m/c?  Everyone who owns a home locally is m/c?  Everyone who lives on an estate is w/c? Owners of small business in the arches are ok but of small business in Granville are capitalist scum?  

tmm the class issues here are structural and far wider than parochial stuff in Brixton and trying to shoehorn discussions between neighbours into the same mould doesn't really work.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> I didn't say i don't have one, I said I don't think it's particularly relevant in the context of this discussion.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong on that, so what is the 'class analysis' that I should bring to bear on this issue?  The previous population is w/c and the newly arrived are m/c?  Everyone who owns a home locally is m/c?  Everyone who lives on an estate is w/c? Owners of small business in the arches are ok but of small business in Granville are capitalist scum?
> 
> tmm the class issues here are structural and far wider than parochial stuff in Brixton and trying to shoehorn discussions between neighbours into the same mould doesn't really work.


Irrelevant fool.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Irrelevant fool.


please spell out your class analysis in the context of this thread.


----------



## shygirl (Apr 26, 2015)

Well done everyone who was there and put time and effort into this.   Had to go to Wales, really pissed I couldn't be there.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

You newbie have been batting all day, your wicket has been broken over and over, every over; are you not exhausted?


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> please spell out your class analysis in the context of this thread.


You ain't worth a yawn fella.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> You newbie have been batting all day, your wicket has been broken over and over, every over; are you not exhausted?


 battling?  not really, but I'll wander off when motd comes on.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

shygirl said:


> Well done everyone who was there and put time and effort into this.   Had to go to Wales, really pissed I couldn't be there.



You can come and play another day, would be nice to see you again.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> You ain't worth a yawn fella.


which is another way of saying you can't.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> battling?  not really, but I'll wander off when motd comes on.



I said batting not battling, a freudian slip on your part.
Thanks for the reminder because Arsenal were great today, played the carparkers off our lawn.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 26, 2015)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Others unaware must have clocked windrush square setting up for hours - at that point make your leaving plans.	Some people will be genuinely inconvenienced and in difficulty and I'm genuinely sorry for their trouble.   But as others point out upthread, there are bigger inconveniences being cause in Brixton, in Hackney, all over London as money is diverted towards the top away from communities and living for more and more becomes more and more precarious



Good post. 

Some were not inconvenienced. The night market outside the Ritzy set up early in the morning and did a lot of extra business as a result of the protest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> I didn't say i don't have one, I said I don't think it's particularly relevant in the context of this discussion.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong on that, so what is the 'class analysis' that I should bring to bear on this issue?  The previous population is w/c and the newly arrived are m/c?  Everyone who owns a home locally is m/c?  Everyone who lives on an estate is w/c? Owners of small business in the arches are ok but of small business in Granville are capitalist scum?
> 
> tmm the class issues here are structural and far wider than parochial stuff in Brixton and trying to shoehorn discussions between neighbours into the same mould doesn't really work.


when you've been caught talking shit it might be better to stfu than continue spouting bollocks


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

well alright, you spell out the class analysis that ought to be applied here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> well alright, you spell out the class analysis that ought to be applied here.


why should i do that for a liar?


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

to show your erudition.  I'm clearly not up to it and no-one else has come up with anything.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I think you missed me saying 'during an action'. Hopefully It's obvious what I mean by that.


As I understand it, "an action" isn't exact - it's similar to the line between "campaigner" and "activist".  

Maybe you've heard (and used) exact definitions, but I've heard it used about people putting post its on estate agency windows, standing in solidarity outside an imminent eviction, or occupying (without forcing entry) an evicted property, as well as things which were far more definitely on the unfortunate side of where the current law seems to stand.  

All of those things were described to me as actions, which ones would you list as that?  Serious question BTW, not taking the piss.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> to show your erudition.  I'm clearly not up to it and no-one else has come up with anything.


i've no need to prove my erudition to someone who has yet to demonstrate their honesty.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2015)

what are you on about?


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> well alright, you spell out the class analysis that ought to be applied here.



The class analysis is that the working class are under threat of losing social housing for example. "Petit Bourgeois" shopkeepers are under threat of being pushed out so Capital can maximize profits on the land it owns. As Marx shows the smaller bourgeois are always under threat of being pushed down by larger capital. The list goes on. Its frankly obvious to see. 

You either get rid of Capitalism or regulate it by using the State to stop the worst excesses. In this country over past 30 years neo-liberalism holds sway. The ideology that capitalism should be unconstrained. This is why in London in particular people are starting to say enough is enough. 

The class composition of Reclaim Brixton is a mixture of (lower) middle class and working class. 

Those chanting "Our Brixton" were a lot of local Black people who feel that they are on process of being pushed out. Did not surprise me as its a complaint I hear often.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> what are you on about?


read the the fucking thread and all will become clear


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

Greebo said:


> As I understand it, "an action" isn't exact - it's similar to the line between "campaigner" and "activist".
> 
> Maybe you've heard (and used) exact definitions, but I've heard it used about people putting post its on estate agency windows, standing in solidarity outside an imminent eviction, or occupying (without forcing entry) an evicted property, as well as things which were far more definitely on the unfortunate side of where the current law seems to stand.
> 
> All of those things were described to me as actions, which ones would you list as that?  Serious question BTW, not taking the piss.



We were discussing the publishing of photos pertaining to the storming of buildings which led to this branch of discussion.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Well done you for the effort you put in. Big respect.



Thanks. 

BTW hands up for being a middle class liberal.

You were right that more happened on the day than I predicted.

It was a day with different aspects. The marches to Windrush sq and assembly there, the shops linking hands, the "reclaim the streets" like party in the road and the attack on Foxton etc.

In all I think the day was success. As long as media coverage is all of it and not just one part of it Im happy. Whether it will lead to anything more is another issue. The various campaigns will go on ( on estates, and the the shops).

The only problem on day was that the organisation that offered to give power for sound system pulled out at last minute. Not sure if it was the police or the Council that they got worried about.So it was a bit unfocused the square. Which is partly why I think people started to do other stuff.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Don't be identifying people. Let the old bill do their own leg work.


There's at least one video posed which shows loads of faces at the Town Hall/Foxtons incidents - some of which I recognise.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2015)

editor said:


> There's at least one video posed which shows loads of faces at the Town Hall/Foxtons incidents - some of which I recognise.



I know. To which I posted:

'Which twat filmed that '


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 26, 2015)

As for the police. They are a mixed bunch. When I was stewarding the Guinness Trust march a driver got really irate about being held up. I tried to talk with him and he started to get aggressive. Two coppers came over and had a word with him. They then asked me which way we wanted to go up to square and helped out. They also did not interfere with Windrush sq events.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Thanks.
> 
> BTW hands up for being a middle class liberal.
> 
> ...


I tend to judge people on their words and deeds. You gain much credit for both. Lets have a pint some time.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 26, 2015)

TopCat said:


> I tend to judge people on their words and deeds. You gain much credit for both. Lets have a pint some time.



Yes I would like that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> I didn't say i don't have one, I said I don't think it's particularly relevant in the context of this discussion.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong on that, so what is the 'class analysis' that I should bring to bear on this issue?  The previous population is w/c and the newly arrived are m/c?  Everyone who owns a home locally is m/c?  Everyone who lives on an estate is w/c? Owners of small business in the arches are ok but of small business in Granville are capitalist scum?
> 
> tmm the class issues here are structural and far wider than parochial stuff in Brixton and trying to shoehorn discussions between neighbours into the same mould doesn't really work.



The thing about class analysis, is that you have to make a class analysis, not just pass on the trite banalities, stereotypes and cliches you've farted out above.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> You newbie have been batting all day, your wicket has been broken over and over, every over; are you not exhausted?



He's never exhausted, because in his own mind he's seldom wrong, everyone else is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> which is another way of saying you can't.



It's also another way of saying "you're not worth the effort, because it's obvious that you won't pay any attention to what's put before you".


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> what are you on about?



That's the question.
Can you answer it please.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

newbie said:


> well alright, you spell out the class analysis that ought to be applied here.



It can be as simple or as complex as you care for it to be. At its simplest you can analyse the class dynamic of the protest thusly: 
That the majority of those protesting are workers (using the definition "those who sell their labour to someone further up the chain of ownership of the means of production than they are") who are affected by the demographic changes in Brixton.
That those they're protesting against include _rentiers_, property speculators and those who have homes and businesses bought for them, and/or who have the social capital to borrow in ways that those who are protesting don't have access to.

It's nothing startling. In fact most of it is obvious to anyone who doesn't ignore class dynamics as driving a lot of social  inequities and inequalities.  It's not about whether you rent or own, it's about what you're required (or not required) to do in order to have that roof over your head, just as it's not about how much you earn, but about whether you have much or any "disposable income" after paying for the necessities of life. "Yuppie" doesn't mean what it did 30 years ago. Now it encompasses what we used to call "trust fund kids" - a virus that used to be found only around Hampstead and Notting Hill, but is now infecting a much wider swathe of London.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The class analysis is that the working class are under threat of losing social housing for example. "Petit Bourgeois" shopkeepers are under threat of being pushed out so Capital can maximize profits on the land it owns. As Marx shows the smaller bourgeois are always under threat of being pushed down by larger capital. The list goes on. Its frankly obvious to see.
> 
> You either get rid of Capitalism or regulate it by using the State to stop the worst excesses. In this country over past 30 years neo-liberalism holds sway. The ideology that capitalism should be unconstrained. This is why in London in particular people are starting to say enough is enough.
> 
> ...



Not just social housing, either. The squeeze on working people in private rentals is ongoing.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 26, 2015)

One of the groups who supported Reclaim Brixton are the Ritzy workers.

Out of that campaign (Ritzy workers) a new campaign, based on similar campaigns in US, to make Brixton Union town. Unionise all workers in Brixton.



> We want to help workers in Brixton to unionise EVERY workplace and fight for decent pay, conditions and jobs.
> 
> If you want to know which union to join, or how to unionise your workplace then send us a message or email unionbrixton@gmail.com.



facebook

Twitter

unionbrixton@gmail.com


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 26, 2015)

So, when's the next one?


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 27, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> One of the groups who supported Reclaim Brixton are the Ritzy workers.
> 
> Out of that campaign a new campaign, based on similar campaigns in US, to make Brixton Union town. Unionise all workers in Brixton.
> 
> ...



That man is a #LivingLegend and i finally got the opportunity to say hello.


----------



## newbie (Apr 27, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The class analysis is that the working class are under threat of losing social housing for example. "Petit Bourgeois" shopkeepers are under threat of being pushed out so Capital can maximize profits on the land it owns. As Marx shows the smaller bourgeois are always under threat of being pushed down by larger capital. The list goes on. Its frankly obvious to see.
> 
> You either get rid of Capitalism or regulate it by using the State to stop the worst excesses. In this country over past 30 years neo-liberalism holds sway. The ideology that capitalism should be unconstrained. This is why in London in particular people are starting to say enough is enough.
> 
> The class composition of Reclaim Brixton is a mixture of (lower) middle class and working class.



ok thanks for that. I agree with you, it's obvious to see and hasn't changed hugely over the years.  The threat to social housing goes back to at least RTB, smaller shops have been squeezed locally for a good few years now, as the phone shops and other chains have moved in, though it's all gathering pace as the local state, via the council, proves ever more utterly ineffective at regulating and managing capital.  So yes, I'd agree with all of that.  

It doesn't, however, address what was actually said, which was that there's only a difference between the chants "our streets" and "our Brixton" for those without a class analysis.  That is what I'd like someone to address.  Although I'm off to bed now and at work all day tomorrow so by the time I read anything that's written the moment will have passed.  Sorry about that.



> Those chanting "Our Brixton" were a lot of local Black people who feel that they are on process of being pushed out. Did not surprise me as its a complaint I hear often.



some of those chanting were black, some were white, some were local, some, well, I dunno.  It's not who chanted, but what was chanted that made me feel uncomfortable.  The claim that Brixton is 'Ours'.  It's snappy for sure, snappier than something about how Brixton is for the people that live here and not just a cashcow for Lexadon, Network Rail, or Foxtons, or the so called co-operative Labour council.  But both the slogan and the insults and putdowns on this thread say quite clearly to me that "Our Brixton" is pretty exclusive. Which is a shame, because that wasn't the general feel of the protest (which was inclusive), wasn't what was being said over the PA and isn't the basis for an effective campaign.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

newbie said:


> But both the slogan and the insults and putdowns on this thread say quite clearly to me that "Our Brixton" is pretty exclusive. .


That's just _your_ opinion and I'm pretty sure it's not one shared by many people, if any.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 27, 2015)

newbie said:


> ok thanks for that. I agree with you, it's obvious to see and hasn't changed hugely over the years.  The threat to social housing goes back to at least RTB, smaller shops have been squeezed locally for a good few years now, as the phone shops and other chains have moved in, though it's all gathering pace as the local state, via the council, proves ever more utterly ineffective at regulating and managing capital.  So yes, I'd agree with all of that.
> 
> It doesn't, however, address what was actually said, which was that there's only a difference between the chants "our streets" and "our Brixton" for those without a class analysis.  That is what I'd like someone to address.  Although I'm off to bed now and at work all day tomorrow so by the time I read anything that's written the moment will have passed.  Sorry about that.
> .



The question I answered was this:



> please spell out your class analysis in the context of this thread.



In the context of this thread. 

As you said so far there had not been one.

I have given you the class analysis.

I don’t know what else to say that has not been covered in other posts.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 27, 2015)

You newbie might think you have achieve your goal and I would agree with you on that score. You played a good game on the elongation thing. I underestimated you; that's my fault but in mitigation, you should have read my mind.


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

Reclaim Brixton. I'm confused. What back to the affluent area it was before the 1950s. It seems we for get that Brixton was a place of grandure and decadence. And life did happen before then. Peoples life's where changed then, just as they are now. It's sad that Foxtons has been targeted. Streatham had a Foxtons before Brixton?!?!!


----------



## Belushi (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Reclaim Brixton. I'm confused. What back to the affluent area it was before the 1950s. It seems we for get that Brixton was a place of grandure and decadence.



No, that's actually one of the most predictable things people say on gentrification threads.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> It's sad that Foxtons has been targeted. Streatham had a Foxtons before Brixton?!?!!



You're sad that London's 'most aggressive' estate agent business that makes a huge profit at the cost of other people's misery has been targeted? It only got its window smashed ffs. It's beyond parody.


----------



## Winot (Apr 27, 2015)

newbie said:


> ok thanks for that. I agree with you, it's obvious to see and hasn't changed hugely over the years.  The threat to social housing goes back to at least RTB, smaller shops have been squeezed locally for a good few years now, as the phone shops and other chains have moved in, though it's all gathering pace as the local state, via the council, proves ever more utterly ineffective at regulating and managing capital.  So yes, I'd agree with all of that.
> 
> It doesn't, however, address what was actually said, which was that there's only a difference between the chants "our streets" and "our Brixton" for those without a class analysis.  That is what I'd like someone to address.  Although I'm off to bed now and at work all day tomorrow so by the time I read anything that's written the moment will have passed.  Sorry about that.
> 
> ...



Thank you for attempting to introduce a nuanced analysis. The fact that it is difficult to have such a debate here without being shouted down is the reason many no longer post here.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 27, 2015)

newbie said:


> ok thanks for that. I agree with you, it's obvious to see and hasn't changed hugely over the years.  The threat to social housing goes back to at least RTB, smaller shops have been squeezed locally for a good few years now, as the phone shops and other chains have moved in, though it's all gathering pace as the local state, via the council, proves ever more utterly ineffective at regulating and managing capital.  So yes, I'd agree with all of that.
> 
> It doesn't, however, address what was actually said, which was that there's only a difference between the chants "our streets" and "our Brixton" for those without a class analysis.  That is what I'd like someone to address.  Although I'm off to bed now and at work all day tomorrow so by the time I read anything that's written the moment will have passed.  Sorry about that.
> 
> ...



"our" sounds inclusive to me


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## stethoscope (Apr 27, 2015)

Quick, we're going to need 'trigger warnings' and 'safe spaces' next lest someone gets a teensy bit offended at a chant of 'whose Brixton, our Brixton'.

Christ almighty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2015)

Winot said:


> Thank you for attempting to introduce a nuanced analysis. The fact that it is difficult to have such a debate here without being shouted down is the reason many no longer post here.


it'd be good if there'd been honesty within his attempt to introduce a nuanced debate. but at least we can appreciate the attempt.


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## pesh (Apr 27, 2015)

'Our Brixton' sounds inclusive to me too, unless you consider yourself to be one of the cunts shitting on everything in search of ever more profit.


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## ska invita (Apr 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Quick, we're going to need 'trigger warnings' and 'safe spaces' next lest someone gets a teensy bit offended at a chant of 'whose Brixton, our Brixton'.
> 
> Christ almighty.


a lot of people like to romanticise the paris commune, but what they tend to forget is just how disruptive to bus services the barricades were


----------



## pesh (Apr 27, 2015)




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## han (Apr 27, 2015)

To me, 'our Brixton' means the one that everyone who lives here loves, the one that property developers and Network Rail are on their way to destroying due to their concern for nothing but cash.


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## han (Apr 27, 2015)

There's nothing exclusive about it, unless you're on the side of Foxton's and Network Rail.


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## Up the junction (Apr 27, 2015)

Am I missing something, is Foxton's a firm of  estate agents with an average sized office almost opposite the tube?


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## Greebo (Apr 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Am I missing something, is Foxton's a firm of  estate agents with an average sized office almost opposite the tube?


Suffice it to say that that particular estate agency/letting agency  chain has form, and IMHO unpleasantly antisocial form at that.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Am I missing something, is Foxton's a firm of  estate agents with an average sized office almost opposite the tube?


Yes. Estate agents are parasitical businesses and Foxton's are amongst the worst of them.


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## cuppa tee (Apr 27, 2015)

satire.............http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...m-brixton-from-guardian-readers-2015042797754


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## Up the junction (Apr 27, 2015)

Indeed, at worst it is a parasite though, arguably, more properly the agent of parasites.


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## stethoscope (Apr 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Indeed, at worst it is a parasite though, arguably, more properly the agent of parasites.



I think that tends to let them off the hook a bit. They are much more involved and interconnected in the whole dynamic of _estate/letting agents-property developers-gentrification-loss of social housing_ than merely 'agent of'.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> I think that tends to let them off the hook a bit. They are much more involved and interconnected in the whole dynamic of _estate/letting agents-property developers-gentrification-loss of social housing_ than merely 'agent of'.


The Foxtons agent in that New Statesman article gleefully predicting that soon Brixton will have 100% private housing.


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## 299 old timer (Apr 27, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> The Foxtons agent in that New Statesman article gleefully predicting that soon Brixton will have 100% private housing.



That seems an easy prediction to make, given that none of the main political parties are committed to building social housing, or trying to do anything about the runaway greed of developers and landlords. And I mean proper social housing, not this ridiculous "affordable" cobblers.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 27, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> That seems an easy prediction to make, given that none of the main political parties are committed to building social housing, or trying to do anything about the runaway greed of developers and landlords. And I mean proper social housing, not this ridiculous "affordable" cobblers.


Sure, I was merely illustrating the venality of estate agents


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## Up the junction (Apr 27, 2015)

He's a salesman. If it wasn't property it would be second hand cars.


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## Up the junction (Apr 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> I think that tends to let them off the hook a bit. They are much more involved and interconnected in the whole dynamic of _estate/letting agents-property developers-gentrification-loss of social housing_ than merely 'agent of'.


Okay, that's interesting. I was curious as to what _people think _distinguishes this agent from every other agent in Brixton.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> He's a salesman. If it wasn't property it would be second hand cars.


What's your point?


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Yes. Estate agents are parasitical businesses and Foxton's are amongst the worst of them.


I'd put local landlords and developers Lexadon in that list too.



> Case study 48 Trent Road was converted to four flats by its owners, Mr Jerry Knight and Lexadon Ltd. Because three planning applications had been refused for such use and the owners had failed to resolve the matter informally with the Council’s Planning Enforcement team, planning enforcement notices were served requiring the cessation of the unauthorised use of the property as flats.
> 
> The owners failed to comply with the requirements of the planning enforcement notice within the prescribed periods and as a result, prosecution proceedings were instigated against the owners. In addition, planning enforcement officers and planning lawyers worked with the Counter Fraud Team’s accredited financial investigator (AFI) to pursue a Proceeds of Crime Act (POCA) application in respect of the profits made through this unlawful activity. Our AFI has specific powers under the POCA legislation to acquire financial information on defendants from banks and other institutions.
> 
> ...


Classy.


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## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Okay, that's interesting. I was curious as to what _people think _distinguishes this agent from every other agent in Brixton.


How about this for starters:



> Described by the Independent as the “Estate agent that gives estate agents a bad name“,  The Guardian had this to say about Foxtons business ethics:
> 
> Staff were paid minimal basic salaries plus commission so that, according to one former employee, they were “driven to do almost anything to clinch a deal”.
> 
> ...


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

Belushi said:


> No, that's actually one of the most predictable things people say on gentrification threads.


But it's true! Why forget the history. The buildings, the infrastructure, the architecture. This has also made Brixton what it is today, not just what happend in the past 70 years. To say 'reclaim' is such a shallow word.


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## peterkro (Apr 27, 2015)

I couldn't make it on Saturday but followed what was going on.A big thank you who all who took part showing off the Brixton I've known and loved for 35 years.A special thanks to those who took out Foxtons window and those brave souls who had a go at the police station (not forgetting those that tried to get into the town hall a decent enough tactic, by the way the town hall has been occupied by people before,squatters took it over for a full day some time ago although admittedly we had the support of the workers inside).


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## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

Quick post: 
Reclaim Brixton – new video shows the energy, the issues and the fun of the day


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## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Reclaim Brixton. I'm confused. What back to the affluent area it was before the 1950s.


It wasn't particularly affluent in the 1950s.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2015)

editor said:


> It wasn't particularly affluent in the 1950s.


it's not been a particularly affluent area.


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## cesare (Apr 27, 2015)

You'd have to go back to the turn of the century for well to do middle-class-ness in Brixton: http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/booth-map.html


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Reclaim Brixton. I'm confused. What back to the affluent area it was before the 1950s. It seems we for get that Brixton was a place of grandure and decadence. And life did happen before then. Peoples life's where changed then, just as they are now. It's sad that Foxtons has been targeted. Streatham had a Foxtons before Brixton?!?!!



You haven't read the thread,have you? If you had, you wouldn't have piled in with the most oft-repeated banal question on the subject of gentrification.
You're also historically-inaccurate. *Parts* of Brixton were certainly affluent in the first half of the 20th century, but other parts were the same old crumbling terraces with 2 or 3 families living in them. My maternal family was one of them during the '30s. We're not forgetting anything, we merely have a somewhat more well-informed and nuanced view of what Brixton was.
As for change, another thing you'd know if you had read the thread is that it's not change _per se_ that has upset people - most of us are well-aware of the rise (and the fall) of the popularity of areas - it's the rate of change, and the fact that the speed is fed by "investment opportunities" and people wanting to buy into some sort of "cred" for living in Brixton.

Try not to be so dumb, eh?


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

Winot said:


> Thank you for attempting to introduce a nuanced analysis. The fact that it is difficult to have such a debate here without being shouted down is the reason many no longer post here.



You can fucking shut it, too! 

  

Sorry, you left an open goal there!


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

editor said:


> It wasn't particularly affluent in the 1950s.


As an editor I don't think you need me to explain what Brixton represented in regards to class, shopping, theatres and amenities. We also don't need to talk about electric and the tram. Please look at this image and tell me that Brixton wasn't affluent before!
http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/zebra-taxi-cab.html


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You haven't read the thread,have you? If you had, you wouldn't have piled in with the most oft-repeated banal question on the subject of gentrification.
> You're also historically-inaccurate. *Parts* of Brixton were certainly affluent in the first half of the 20th century, but other parts were the same old crumbling terraces with 2 or 3 families living in them. My maternal family was one of them during the '30s. We're not forgetting anything, we merely have a somewhat more well-informed and nuanced view of what Brixton was.
> As for change, another thing you'd know if you had read the thread is that it's not change _per se_ that has upset people - most of us are well-aware of the rise (and the fall) of the popularity of areas - it's the rate of change, and the fact that the speed is fed by "investment opportunities" and people wanting to buy into some sort of "cred" for living in Brixton.
> 
> Try not to be so dumb, eh?



Maybe the word 'dumb' is very apt here. Do you honestly think a place that is so close to Central London would stay put. Of course it has rapidly changed. Supply and demand. I believe places out side zone 6 don't change as fast. I think not realising this is 'dumb'


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## 299 old timer (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Maybe the word 'dumb' is very apt here. Do you honestly think a place that is so close to Central London would stay put. Of course it has rapidly changed. Supply and demand. I believe places out side zone 6 don't change as fast. I think not realising this is 'dumb'



It took time, but it was inevitable. The Victoria Line was the first "gentrifier" of recent decades imho, allowing folk quick passage to central London and back. It's not that Brixton exists in it's own little bubble either, just go and check property prices in Streatham...
A work colleague can't find a place to rent / buy in his home town of Beckenham, and is looking outside of London now. The "Reclaim Brixton" issue just mirrors what a mess property is all over the London area, question is: which political party has the cajones to tackle it?


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> It took time, but it was inevitable. The Victoria Line was the first "gentrifier" of recent decades imho, allowing folk quick passage to central London and back. It's not that Brixton exists in it's own little bubble either, just go and check property prices in Streatham...
> A work colleague can't find a place to rent / buy in his home town of Beckenham, and is looking outside of London now. The "Reclaim Brixton" issue just mirrors what a mess property is all over the London area, question is: which political party has the cajones to tackle it?


Exactly it's everywhere Dalston, peckham, tooting blah blah. The problem is if people are willing to pay. Sadly they are to the disappointment of others.


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## killer b (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> The problem is if people are willing to pay.


what other choice might 'people' have?


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## ska invita (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Exactly it's everywhere Dalston, peckham, tooting blah blah. The problem is if people are willing to pay. Sadly they are to the disappointment of others.


exactly why this is the first step and it would be great to see other local communities organise similarly - of course brixton isnt unique in this - but it is unique in having a particularly strong sense of community, hence they are 'first' off the blocks on this in london (at this scale)


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## cesare (Apr 27, 2015)

http://radicalhousingnetwork.org/


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## ffsear (Apr 27, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Sure they were.  Okay, maybe a few who were raising money for charity, you can have those.  But as for the rest...
> 
> So how can you tell me that we don't count
> or say that Brixton isn't mine?
> ...




No need. I lived there 11 years.  Got priced out and moved away in October.


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## 299 old timer (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Exactly it's everywhere Dalston, peckham, tooting blah blah. The problem is if people are willing to pay. Sadly they are to the disappointment of others.



Insane:
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/Brixton.html
_Most of the sales in Brixton over the past year were flats which on average sold for £392,603. Terraced properties had an average sold price of £719,435 and semi-detached properties averaged at £877,251. 

Brixton, with an overall average price of £454,355 was more expensive than nearby Tulse Hill (£415,235), but was cheaper than Stockwell (£690,745) and Clapham (£746,818). 

*In the past year house prices in Brixton were 16% up on the year before and 36% up on 2012 when they averaged at £334,334.*

Last year most property sales in Streatham involved flats which sold for on average £329,962. Terraced properties sold for an average price of £508,013, while semi-detached properties fetched £702,519.

Streatham, with an overall average price of £416,939, was similar in terms of sold prices to nearby West Norwood (£421,540), but was more expensive than Streatham Vale (£360,433) and cheaper than Streatham Hill (£438,396).

*During the last year, sold prices in Streatham were 18% up on the previous year and 34% up on 2012 when the average house price was £310,395.*_

_The majority of sales in Beckenham during the last year were flats, selling for an average price of £295,216. Terraced properties sold for an average of £464,607, with semi-detached properties fetching £588,282. 

Beckenham, with an overall average price of £435,219 was more expensive than nearby Elmers End (£370,773) and New Beckenham (£411,229), but was cheaper than Eden Park (£548,702).

*Overall sold prices in Beckenham over the last year were 14% up on the previous year and 29% up on the 2012 level of £336,077.*_

I think I spot a trend.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Maybe the word 'dumb' is very apt here. Do you honestly think a place that is so close to Central London would stay put. Of course it has rapidly changed. Supply and demand. I believe places out side zone 6 don't change as fast. I think not realising this is 'dumb'



You didn't read my post, did you?
Had you done so, you'd have seen that I'm sanguine about change - that I acknowledge that it happens - but that what I object to is the speed of forced change caused by changes in the way housing is regarded.

You talk about supply and demand as if what we have here is a simple equation - it isn't. Look to new private developments and you soon see that supply is not primarily targeted at residential demand - at those who wish to purchase a place to live - but at investors, be they property speculators or buy-to-let landlords. A normal supply and demand equation would merely be a matter of matching housing need with housing, something that could be done profitably enough for any developer taking a long view (as the builders of "Metroland" did). Unfortunately, we have a housing development culture which is about maximum sweating of land assets, and minimisation of development costs - effectively, poorly-built, badly-designed private housing that can only effectively be marketed to non-residential buyers, who can then exploit people needing housing via the particularly-useless rental legislation in England and Wales.

It's all a *bit* more nuanced than simple supply and demand (unless you have a degree in Economics, in which case you've already drunk way too much "free market" Kool-Aid).


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Quick, we're going to need 'trigger warnings' and 'safe spaces' next lest someone gets a teensy bit offended at a chant of 'whose Brixton, our Brixton'.
> 
> Christ almighty.



TBF Steph, you just triggered me by mentioning that _gonif_ Jesus.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Indeed, at worst it is a parasite though, arguably, more properly the agent of parasites.



The majority of parasites are self-limiting in what they parasitise in order to live. Estate agents are not known for being self-limiting in their greed.


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

killer b said:


> what other choice might 'people' have?


Not to live in Zone 2. My work is in zone 1. I can't afford that so you have to do what you can afford.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Okay, that's interesting. I was curious as to what _people think _distinguishes this agent from every other agent in Brixton.



Possibly the fact that Foxtons is the only "local" estate agent to regularly do mail-outs to council estates hinting at the fortunes to be made if you exercise your "Right to Buy".


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ska invita said:


> exactly why this is the first step and it would be great to see other local communities organise similarly - of course brixton isnt unique in this - but it is unique in having a particularly strong sense of community, hence they are 'first' off the blocks on this in london (at this scale)


I don't think smashing up a place you love is very unique, but that's just my opinion


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## stethoscope (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Not to live in Zone 2. My work is in zone 1. I can't afford that so you have to do what you can afford.



How about, communities shouldn't have to move further and further away because they are being priced out/pushed out?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> I don't think smashing up a place you love is very unique, but that's just my opinion


Nobody loves Foxtons though


----------



## ska invita (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> I don't think smashing up a place you love is very unique, but that's just my opinion


a symbolic attack on foxtons is not smashing up the place you love. unless you happen to love foxtons.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> I don't think smashing up a place you love is very unique, but that's just my opinion



You think Foxton's window went through out of love?


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Not to live in Zone 2. My work is in zone 1. I can't afford that so you have to do what you can afford.



So people should be displaced from family, friends and community at the whim of capital?


----------



## cesare (Apr 27, 2015)

I bet the Foxtons' manager loves Foxtons


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> I don't think smashing up a place you love is very unique, but that's just my opinion



A broken window in Foxton's - an estate agent, FFS. Not 'smashing up a place you love'.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Not to live in Zone 2. My work is in zone 1. I can't afford that so you have to do what you can afford.


Eventually only the super rich will be able to afford to live in London. Who will clean their cars, look after their children and serve them caviar and where will they live?


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## Blagsta (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> I don't think smashing up a place you love is very unique, but that's just my opinion



Who smashed up what now?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> I don't think smashing up a place you love is very unique, but that's just my opinion



"Smashing a place up"?
2 or 3 windows broken isn't a place "smashed up", unless you're a journo.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> How about, communities shouldn't have to move further and further away because they are being priced out/pushed out?



But Steph, the poster can't live where they want, so why should anyone else be able to?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

cesare said:


> I bet the Foxtons' manager loves Foxtons



I bet the Foxtons' manager's mum loves the Foxtons' manager, and I bet she's the only person who does. Probably tells her neighbours that her offspring is on the game - less shameful than admitting they're an estate agent for the biggest firm of cunts in the business!


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> How about, communities shouldn't have to move further and further away because they are being priced out/pushed out?


This is wrong and the government needs to do something about it.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Smashing a place up"?
> 2 or 3 windows broken isn't a place "smashed up", unless you're a journo.



Sadly it's what the world outside of Brixton get to see as presented by the media.

There was so much positive energy on Saturday but one window puts through becomes the image of the whole event.

Very frustrating.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> So people should be displaced from family, friends and community at the whim of capital?


You have to do what is best to survive. A lot of people don't have the pleasure to have friends and family a round them. You have to go were the work is.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> This is wrong and the government needs to do something about it.


LOL


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> A broken window in Foxton's - an estate agent, FFS. Not 'smashing up a place you love'.


One goes to two, two goes to three and so on......


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## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> You have to do what is best to survive. A lot of people don't have the pleasure to have friends and family a round them. You have to go were the work is.


Indeed they don't and they're often the very people who get ripped off and exploited under the system you seem to accept so easily.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> One goes to two, two goes to three and so on......


What are you on about?


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## ska invita (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> This is wrong and the government needs to do something about it.


without pressure from below they wont do shit


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

editor said:


> What are you on about?


Whoops


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 27, 2015)

cesare said:


> I bet the Foxtons' manager loves Foxtons



Maybe it was him in the balaclava?


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> This is wrong and the government needs to do something about it.



Well, successive governments aren't looking to do much about it (mostly because they profit from the way things are/continue to go). So local communities stand up (as they have at the weekend) themselves to organise and to try and change things/apply pressure onto both local and national government. What gets me is that instead of celebrating all that is positive about actions at the weekend, some people seem very quick to focus in on a bit of broken glass to steer the narrative away from it being worthwhile. Precisely what government, 'politicians' and the media want.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> You have to do what is best to survive. A lot of people don't have the pleasure to have friends and family a round them. You have to go were the work is.


What if they work in McDonald's in Oxford Street and earn just £900 a month?


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> What if they work in McDonald's in Oxford Street and earn just £900 a month?


Then you wouldn't work in McDonald's if you couldn't afford to live on that wage..... But like property, there's always somebody willing to pay a premium or work for £900....., it's a bloody nightmare


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## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

Final set of photos from the event on Buzz:













Photo study: Reclaim Brixton by Alex Bartsch


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Then you wouldn't work in McDonald's if you couldn't afford to live on that wage..... But like property, there's always somebody willing to pay a premium or work for £900....., it's a bloody nightmare


Lots of people work for McDonald's and can barely afford to live.


----------



## tufty79 (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Then you wouldn't work in McDonald's if you couldn't afford to live on that wage


----------



## peterkro (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Possibly the fact that Foxtons is the only "local" estate agent to regularly do mail-outs to council estates hinting at the fortunes to be made if you exercise your "Right to Buy".


I live in a housing co-op where I get letters from estate agents wanting to buy my flat (Foxtons is down market in this world) now given there is no possibility of my selling anything or indeed passing the flat off to children you'd think they'd know there very expensive brochures were a waste of time.Oh no they keep sending them off and I keep ripping them up and tossing in the bin.If that's Capitalism at their fineist they are fucked.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Possibly the fact that Foxtons is the only "local" estate agent to regularly do mail-outs to council estates hinting at the fortunes to be made if you exercise your "Right to Buy".


 This has been going on for years (before Foxtons) finance the rtb, let the ex-tenant live there until the property can be sold  - give the ex-tenant a portion of the profits - which isn't usually enough for them to stay in the area - and sometimes the ex-tenant is worse off as a result, no council flat and renting privately


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Then you wouldn't work in McDonald's if you couldn't afford to live on that wage..... But like property, there's always somebody willing to pay a premium or work for £900....., it's a bloody nightmare



In further news those on the dole only do so because they can afford to.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 27, 2015)

Just as a few general questions and, in particular, to those who have been resident in Brixton for 30+ years - when did the area start gentrifying, what were the signs of that gentrification and have there been gradations in that process?


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> In further news those on the dole only do so because they can afford to.


it's all about _choice_.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> One goes to two, two goes to three and so on......



And yet that didn't happen, did it?


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Just as a few general questions and, in particular, to those who have been resident in Brixton for 30+ years - when did the area start gentrifying, what were the signs of that gentrification and have there been gradations in that process?


Are you a journalist by any chance?


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2015)

he's a fantasist.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 27, 2015)

killer b said:


> it's all about _choice_.



It's the liberal litmus test.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Are you a journalist by any chance?


 
Nope.  As a lot of people on these boards must be getting mightily tired of hearing, I'm a lawyer.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

editor said:


> What are you on about?



I think they're proposing that a single broken window inevitably leads to social disorder. The last time I heard this proposed with any seriousness was when Boris's first "deputy mayor for crime" trotted out a set of ideas based on James Q. Wilson's "Broken Windows theory". it was shite back in the day, and it's *still* shite!


----------



## Diamond (Apr 27, 2015)

Incidentally, I was cycling through Loughborough Junction yesterday, a place that I lived in from 2010 to 2012 and noticed that it had changed remarkably - there were new build flats sprouting up, the Cambria looked to be a lot more boring of a pub and there was another place on the way down Coldharbour Lane that looked to be thriving on a Sunday afternoon.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Just as a few general questions and, in particular, to those who have been resident in Brixton for 30+ years - when did the area start gentrifying, what were the signs of that gentrification and have there been gradations in that process?



Read the innumerable gentrification threads. You'll find detailed answers to your questions there.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> And yet that didn't happen, did it?


Yet. It shouldn't of happend at all. It just gives Foxtons free advertising. It only takes one person to graphitti a blank wall. If this is not repainted then more will appear


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

killer b said:


> it's all about _choice_.



It is. it's always about choice. 
Of course, when you actually get around to discussing what your "choice" comprises of, it often varies with social class and/or with spending power.  Odd, that!


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Nope.  As a lot of people on these boards must be getting mightily tired of hearing, I'm a lawyer.


Welcome to London or Brixton


----------



## Diamond (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Read the innumerable gentrification threads. You'll find detailed answers to your questions there.


 
To be frank - I can't be arsed.  However, I remember soon after I graduated from university, some friends of mine moved to Brixton and I used to spend a lot of time in the area, then I moved to Loughborough Junction three years later and also spent a lot of time in Brixton as a result.  Over the course of that period 2007-2012 the area changed quite a bit. I was wondering whether this change is a rolling process that has been going on for some time or whether it is quite a sharp about-turn IYSWIM.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Yet. It shouldn't of happend at all. It just gives Foxtons free advertising. It only takes one person to graphitti a blank wall. If this is not repainted then more will appear



Like I said to editor , you're trotting out a version of "Broken Windows theory", which always sounds very convincing if you're a "law'n'order" type, but which isn't really borne out in non-partisan research in the last 30+ years. You're claiming an inevitability to events, an inevitability that doesn't actually exist.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Like I said to editor , you're trotting out a version of "Broken Windows theory", which always sounds very convincing if you're a "law'n'order" type, but which isn't really borne out in non-partisan research in the last 30+ years. You're claiming an inevitability to events, an inevitability that doesn't actually exist.


Ok let me come and graffiti your wall. Let's see what happens. We can call it 'The Reclaim my wall theory' I await your reply.


----------



## cesare (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Ok let me come and graffiti your wall. Let's see what happens. We can call it 'The Reclaim my wall theory' I await your reply.


Are you Banksy?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2015)

cesare said:


> Are you Banksy?


you're only out by one letter


----------



## Greebo (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Ok let me come and graffiti your wall. Let's see what happens. We can call it 'The Reclaim my wall theory' I await your reply.


Go right ahead - it's a council flat and the council will be delighted to charge you with criminal damage, which carries a hefty fine.  Do try to make it non-racist and non-threatening (ie  nothing which encourages hate crimes) graffiti, or it'll be prioritised for removal by the maintenance crew.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

Diamond said:


> To be frank - I can't be arsed.  However, I remember soon after I graduated from university, some friends of mine moved to Brixton and I used to spend a lot of time in the area, then I moved to Loughborough Junction three years later and also spent a lot of time in Brixton as a result.  Over the course of that period 2007-2012 the area changed quite a bit. I was wondering whether this change is a rolling process that has been going on for some time or whether it is quite a sharp about-turn IYSWIM.



You can kind of date it into 3 (somewhat overlapping) blocks,to my way of thinking, which is the "Bohemian" (for want of a better all-round term) block of settlement where the squatters and the "arty types" colonised Brixton because it was cheap, cheerful and inclusive. You could roughly date this from the '70s until the mid-'90s, and it included people buying because you could still get "bang for buck" in terms of the number of bedrooms your money would buy, if you didn't mind some of the local peculiarities. 
You then had a "mainstreaming" block, which you could date from the early '90s to around 2012, where Brixton became more of a mainstream housing destination for people not deterred by folk-myth and hysteria, where a lot of people bought or rented because it made financial sense to, and who came to love the local cultures. As with the previous block, this was fairly slow and steady, although it also saw the loss (to development) of several community assets such as Cooltan.
From roughly 2010-ish (would probably have been a little  earlier but for _das finanzkreis_) gentrification has hyper-accelerated. rather than the "slow and steady" change of the previous two blocks - which although they displaced people, tended to displace to nearby _locales_ - gentrification in Lambeth in general - and Brixton in particular - has been fast and brutal, with the local authority leading the way in that brutality with the clearance/eviction of short-life tenants from suddenly-valuable town-centre properties, and the minimisation of their obligations to those they displaced. Speculative buying of property is also a borough-wide (and city-wide) problem, as is the development of "luxury homes" for sale - it changes expectations and markets. What has also driven this is the realisation by various commercial entities of those changed expectations, and their attempts (as diverse as Lexadon's property rentals and Shrub & Shutter's cocktails in a jamjar) to cash in on it. Short-termist profit-making is triumphing over long-term community interests and needs - Brixton is being made over in the image of a group of people who have little interest in the place or the communities, only in the profits realisable, or the social capital accrued from living somewhere "edgy".

The above is a fairly well-simplified overview.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You can kind of date it into 3 (somewhat overlapping) blocks,to my way of thinking, which is the "Bohemian" (for want of a better all-round term) block of settlement where the squatters and the "arty types" colonised Brixton because it was cheap, cheerful and inclusive. You could roughly date this from the '70s until the mid-'90s, and it included people buying because you could still get "bang for buck" in terms of the number of bedrooms your money would buy, if you didn't mind some of the local peculiarities.
> You then had a "mainstreaming" block, which you could date from the early '90s to around 2012, where Brixton became more of a mainstream housing destination for people not deterred by folk-myth and hysteria, where a lot of people bought or rented because it made financial sense to, and who came to love the local cultures. As with the previous block, this was fairly slow and steady, although it also saw the loss (to development) of several community assets such as Cooltan.
> From roughly 2010-ish (would probably have been a little  earlier but for _das finanzkreis_) gentrification has hyper-accelerated. rather than the "slow and steady" change of the previous two blocks - which although they displaced people, tended to displace to nearby _locales_ - gentrification in Lambeth in general - and Brixton in particular - has been fast and brutal, with the local authority leading the way in that brutality with the clearance/eviction of short-life tenants from suddenly-valuable town-centre properties, and the minimisation of their obligations to those they displaced. Speculative buying of property is also a borough-wide (and city-wide) problem, as is the development of "luxury homes" for sale - it changes expectations and markets. What has also driven this is the realisation by various commercial entities of those changed expectations, and their attempts (as diverse as Lexadon's property rentals and Shrub & Shutter's cocktails in a jamjar) to cash in on it. Short-termist profit-making is triumphing over long-term community interests and needs - Brixton is being made over in the image of a group of people who have little interest in the place or the communities, only in the profits realisable, or the social capital accrued from living somewhere "edgy".
> 
> The above is a fairly well-simplified overview.


nice to see you keep it simple for Diamond


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Ok let me come and graffiti your wall. Let's see what happens. We can call it 'The Reclaim my wall theory' I await your reply.



That's an even more fatuous argument than your previous ones. You wouldn't be "reclaiming" my wall, you tit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> nice to see you keep it simple for Diamond



I like to do my bit for the community.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You can kind of date it into 3 (somewhat overlapping) blocks,to my way of thinking, which is the "Bohemian" (for want of a better all-round term) block of settlement where the squatters and the "arty types" colonised Brixton because it was cheap, cheerful and inclusive. You could roughly date this from the '70s until the mid-'90s, and it included people buying because you could still get "bang for buck" in terms of the number of bedrooms your money would buy, if you didn't mind some of the local peculiarities.
> You then had a "mainstreaming" block, which you could date from the early '90s to around 2012, where Brixton became more of a mainstream housing destination for people not deterred by folk-myth and hysteria, where a lot of people bought or rented because it made financial sense to, and who came to love the local cultures. As with the previous block, this was fairly slow and steady, although it also saw the loss (to development) of several community assets such as Cooltan.
> From roughly 2010-ish (would probably have been a little  earlier but for _das finanzkreis_) gentrification has hyper-accelerated. rather than the "slow and steady" change of the previous two blocks - which although they displaced people, tended to displace to nearby _locales_ - gentrification in Lambeth in general - and Brixton in particular - has been fast and brutal, with the local authority leading the way in that brutality with the clearance/eviction of short-life tenants from suddenly-valuable town-centre properties, and the minimisation of their obligations to those they displaced. Speculative buying of property is also a borough-wide (and city-wide) problem, as is the development of "luxury homes" for sale - it changes expectations and markets. What has also driven this is the realisation by various commercial entities of those changed expectations, and their attempts (as diverse as Lexadon's property rentals and Shrub & Shutter's cocktails in a jamjar) to cash in on it. Short-termist profit-making is triumphing over long-term community interests and needs - Brixton is being made over in the image of a group of people who have little interest in the place or the communities, only in the profits realisable, or the social capital accrued from living somewhere "edgy".
> 
> The above is a fairly well-simplified overview.


 
Interesting.  That periodisation was broadly my impression too but not having lived in the area, I couldn't really comment with certainty.  One thing that does strike me though is the causal link between people moving in to the area and the area developing places like this champagne and cheese shop.  Presumably there's a kind of positive feedback loop going on there but I don't think a champagne and cheese shop would have a punt without knowing it had a target market to begin with.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 27, 2015)

And it is funny to see Violent Panda and Pickman's patting each others' backs...

Personally, I've got nothing on today at work, hence my presence on these boards but you chaps must have nothing on _ever_ to form such a constant clique...


----------



## tompound (Apr 27, 2015)

That's a very good synopsis. Personally though I don't think that what you describe as the third wave (2010-) and what is happening now as gentrification. My understanding of gentrification (as defined by urban geographers) is what you describe very well pre-2010. Now it's more about hyper privatisation, asset acquisition; unfettered capitalism in essence.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 27, 2015)

tompound said:


> That's a very good synopsis. Personally though I don't think that what you describe as the third wave (2010-) and what is happening now as gentrification. My understanding of gentrification (as defined by urban geographers) is what you describe very well pre-2010. Now it's more about hyper privatisation, asset acquisition; unfettered capitalism in essence.


 
What is interesting, to my mind anyways, is when you see pictures of Brixton in the Victorian/Edwardian era when it appears to have been a wealthy, middle-class suburb.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 27, 2015)

Diamond said:


> <snip> Personally, I've got nothing on today at work, hence my presence on these boards but you chaps must have nothing on _ever_ to form such a constant clique...


Do give it a rest, there's a good chap.  It's less a clique than a truce.  FYI VP is longterm sick and disabled.  And I'm his carer, hence my amount of time spent on urban, except when out doing my bit for this estate (as I was this morning), combined with a bit of advocacy and outreach.

Do you have any more jibes you want to get in, you sad little man?


----------



## Diamond (Apr 27, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Do give it a rest, there's a good chap.  It's less a clique than a truce.  FYI VP is longterm sick and disabled.  And I'm his carer, hence my amount of time spent on urban, except when out doing my bit for this estate (as I was this morning), combined with a bit of advocacy and outreach.
> 
> Do you have any more jibes you want to get in, you sad little man?


 
If someone gives me abuse on a bulletin board, they can expect it back in equal amounts, regardless of their personal situation.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 27, 2015)

Diamond said:


> If someone gives me abuse on a bulletin board, they can expect it back in equal amounts, regardless of their personal situation.


As can you.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> You have to do what is best to survive. A lot of people don't have the pleasure to have friends and family a round them. You have to go were the work is.



Friends and family are necessary to wellbeing.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> One goes to two, two goes to three and so on......



What?


----------



## Diamond (Apr 27, 2015)

Greebo said:


> As can you.


 
Fair enough, as I think I have made clear on countless times before given the amount of people who line up to take an ad hominem pop at my posts, I make no special pleading in that regard.


----------



## 299 old timer (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> From roughly 2010-ish (would probably have been a little  earlier but for _das finanzkreis_) gentrification has hyper-accelerated.



_More stats:
_
*During the last year, sold prices in New Addington were 22% up on the previous year and 26% up on 2008 when the average house price was £193,522.

Overall sold prices in Peckham over the last year were 12% up on the previous year and 28% up on the 2012 level of £320,825.*

_*Overall sold prices in Catford over the last year were 19% up on the previous year and 31% up on the 2012 level of £249,085.*_

Just to support your observation - it's happening all over, even Catford! 

A common stat appears to be a 25/30% rise in property prices over the last couple of years. Why is this? What happened in 2012 to spark this explosion in prices?


----------



## Greebo (Apr 27, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> _<snip> _A common stat appears to be a 25/30% rise in property prices over the last couple of years. Why is this? What happened in 2012 to spark this explosion in prices?


The Olympics, social cleansing (carting off a lot of beggars and rough sleepers, and very actively dissuading their return) and the publicity surrounding it.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Then you wouldn't work in McDonald's if you couldn't afford to live on that wage..... But like property, there's always somebody willing to pay a premium or work for £900....., it's a bloody nightmare



Is this a serious comment?


----------



## 299 old timer (Apr 27, 2015)

Greebo said:


> The Olympics, social cleansing (carting off a lot of beggars and rough sleepers, and very actively dissuading their return) and the publicity surrounding it.



Good shout - the Olympics must have something to do with it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

tompound said:


> That's a very good synopsis. Personally though I don't think that what you describe as the third wave (2010-) and what is happening now as gentrification. My understanding of gentrification (as defined by urban geographers) is what you describe very well pre-2010. Now it's more about hyper privatisation, asset acquisition; unfettered capitalism in essence.


I agree that it's not gentrification as we came to understand it, or to deploy the term in general use. The only reason I still use it is because I see what's happening as an extension and acceleration of traditional gentrification into neoliberalism engraved into a community - commodification of the public space of community into saleable chunks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

Diamond said:


> What is interesting, to my mind anyways, is when you see pictures of Brixton in the Victorian/Edwardian era when it appears to have been a wealthy, middle-class suburb.



That's generally because most of the pictures that make it into mass circulation are those showing main thoroughfares or showing roads of houses soon after they were built - stuff like Water Lane, Tulse Hill and Herne Hill rather than the smaller back-streets where the working class lived.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> _More stats:
> _
> *During the last year, sold prices in New Addington were 22% up on the previous year and 26% up on 2008 when the average house price was £193,522.
> 
> ...



Sure, absolutely.
Now check out *volume* turnover by area. We're in the upper reaches for Greater London, if Land Registry stats are to be believed. In other words, we're currently being colonised more heavily than Catford, Peckham or (hawk, spit) New Addington.



> A common stat appears to be a 25/30% rise in property prices over the last couple of years. Why is this? What happened in 2012 to spark this explosion in prices?



From about 2010 until 2012, property development in Greater London went into overdrive, mostly on the basis of either seeking an Olympic premium, or using the Olympics as a "window" through which to project London property as a good investment opportunity - especially as prices are tied to the govts' reluctance to deflate the property price bubble.


----------



## cesare (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sure, absolutely.
> Now check out *volume* turnover by area. We're in the upper reaches for Greater London, if Land Registry stats are to be believed. In other words, we're currently being colonised more heavily than Catford, Peckham or (hawk, spit) New Addington.
> 
> 
> A common stat appears to be a 25/30% rise in property prices over the last couple of years. Why is this? What happened in 2012 to spark this explosion in prices?


oi, less of the shit about New Addington. Thought better of you than that


----------



## kabbes (Apr 27, 2015)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...m-brixton-from-guardian-readers-2015042797754


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

cesare said:


> oi, less of the shit about New Addington. Thought better of you than that



Sorry, had a bad experience there two thirds of a lifetime ago that set me against it. It came to represent my idea of what a community would be like if it were populated with "just minding my own business, don't want to get involved" types (which I realise probably isn't an accurate assessment of the place or its' people).


----------



## cesare (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sorry, had a bad experience there two thirds of a lifetime ago that set me against it. It came to represent my idea of what a community would be like if it were populated with "just minding my own business, don't want to get involved" types (which I realise probably isn't an accurate assessment of the place or its' people).


No, it's pretty much like Thamesmead, where the council used to house families that they thought were problems


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> Friends and family are necessary to wellbeing.


Yes but many don't have them close


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Yes but many don't have them close



True. Yet here you are saying that people should be even further away from their loved ones.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You can kind of date it into 3 (somewhat overlapping) blocks,to my way of thinking, which is the "Bohemian" (for want of a better all-round term) block of settlement where the squatters and the "arty types" colonised Brixton because it was cheap, cheerful and inclusive. You could roughly date this from the '70s until the mid-'90s, and it included people buying because you could still get "bang for buck" in terms of the number of bedrooms your money would buy, if you didn't mind some of the local peculiarities.
> You then had a "mainstreaming" block, which you could date from the early '90s to around 2012, where Brixton became more of a mainstream housing destination for people not deterred by folk-myth and hysteria, where a lot of people bought or rented because it made financial sense to, and who came to love the local cultures. As with the previous block, this was fairly slow and steady, although it also saw the loss (to development) of several community assets such as Cooltan.
> From roughly 2010-ish (would probably have been a little  earlier but for _das finanzkreis_) gentrification has hyper-accelerated. rather than the "slow and steady" change of the previous two blocks - which although they displaced people, tended to displace to nearby _locales_ - gentrification in Lambeth in general - and Brixton in particular - has been fast and brutal, with the local authority leading the way in that brutality with the clearance/eviction of short-life tenants from suddenly-valuable town-centre properties, and the minimisation of their obligations to those they displaced. Speculative buying of property is also a borough-wide (and city-wide) problem, as is the development of "luxury homes" for sale - it changes expectations and markets. What has also driven this is the realisation by various commercial entities of those changed expectations, and their attempts (as diverse as Lexadon's property rentals and Shrub & Shutter's cocktails in a jamjar) to cash in on it. Short-termist profit-making is triumphing over long-term community interests and needs - Brixton is being made over in the image of a group of people who have little interest in the place or the communities, only in the profits realisable, or the social capital accrued from living somewhere "edgy".
> 
> The above is a fairly well-simplified overview.


Sounds about right but I'm interested to hear what you think the area of Brixton was like in the 20s 30s etc. Was it gentrifide then?


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Sounds about right but I'm interested to hear what you think the area of Brixton was like in the 20s 30s etc. Was it gentrifide then?


Does it matter in the context of this thread?

 If you're that interested in Brixton history there's a dedicated thread on it.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Sounds about right but I'm interested to hear what you think the area of Brixton was like in the 20s 30s etc. Was it gentrifide then?


One of the things that happened in the 1930s was a lot of v. large houses and gardens were cleared to make way for Effra Court, Brixton Court, Crownstone Court, Brockwell Court, Arlington Lodge and others.

This would have been a major change - decaying Victorian mansions being replaced by luxury (for the time) short term rental properties. A bit like the Lexadon of their time.

So I would say in a way there was a gentrification period between the wars - and it was largely driven by property development, just like now.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> True. Yet here you are saying that people should be even further away from their loved ones.


It depends what you want and what quality of life you want to lead. Bringing a family up in any city is always going to be expensive. Some times y


Blagsta said:


> True. Yet here you are saying that people should be even further away from their loved ones.





editor said:


> Does it matter in the context of this thread?
> 
> If you're that interested in Brixton history there's a dedicated thread on it.[/QUOTE
> I think it matters completely in this context of thread. I'm just interested to hear the persons thoughts.... I'm interested to hear that this word we keep throwing a round 'gentrifide, gentrification' is


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> It depends what you want and what quality of life you want to lead. Bringing a family up in any city is always going to be expensive. Some times y





CH1 said:


> One of the things that happened in the 1930s was a lot of v. large houses and gardens were cleared to make way for Effra Court, Brixton Court, Crownstone Court, Brockwell Court, Arlington Lodge and others.
> 
> This would have been a major change - decaying Victorian mansions being replaced by luxury (for the time) short term rental properties. A bit like the Lexadon of their time.
> 
> So I would say in a way there was a gentrification period between the wars - and it was largely driven by property development, just like now.



So its just one big circle. The Victorians thought it had potential and now in 2015 the potential has come again. The one thing you can't change about Brixton is its position on the map. This is what is driving the wheel


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 27, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Some dangerous stuff going on here;




Someone suggested a whip round for the owner of the trashed bicycle soundsystem - there were 2 systems and I can't tell them apart from the vids. The owner of the one which was trashed is the guy in the white t shirt and specs above. He won't mind me disclosing that. He's been at plenty of other local demos so he's probably a familiar face to many here. If anyone wants to contact him maybe a message on the noticeboard at 56A would work https://56abikespace.wordpress.com

The dancing in the vid above was illegal because it was on the A23 and the organisers had not asked permission to block it. I thought the policing was done with a light touch - blocking a major route for hours and hours has often provoked some very heavy handed use of riot police in the past. I felt bad for the giant officer who had cans chucked at his head when he asked for the soundsystem to be moved out of the road - he was very friendly and good humoured. The use of pepper spray to defend the police station seemed proportionate to me. It's a scary-looking episode but AFAICS baton use was light, nobody was arrested and the women who were sprayed in the face were happy as larry an hour or two later. We didn't see any of the G20-style police violence where shields were smashed in people's faces etc. Did anyone see any blood spilled? I didn't.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Does it matter in the context of this thread?
> 
> If you're that interested in Brixton history there's a dedicated thread on it.


It matters completly because i think as much as you push the fact a way Brixton was gentrifide many many years ago. This is why I find the word 'gentrification / reclaim ' so stupid because Brixton was for the affluent. It has just done a full circle.


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## cesare (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> It matters completly because i think as much as you push the fact a way Brixton was gentrifide many many years ago. This is why I find the word 'gentrification / reclaim ' so stupid because Brixton was for the affluent. It has just done a full circle.


A hundred year round circle. That's many generations.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> It matters completly because i think as much as you push the fact a way Brixton was gentrifide many many years ago. This is why I find the word 'gentrification / reclaim ' so stupid because Brixton was for the affluent. It has just done a full circle.


That's too simplistic to even bother with, sorry.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> So its just one big circle. The Victorians thought it had potential and now in 2015 the potential has come again. The one thing you can't change about Brixton is its position on the map. This is what is driving the wheel


Not really. If you consider how multi occupied houses which had become slums were cleared in Somerleyton Road/Loughborough Park so that Moorlands Estate and Barrier Block could be built. Or the clearances to build the two Loughborough estates, or Angell Rown, or Stockwell Park.

All these previous developments were politically motivated to rehouse working people to a decent standard in low cost council housing at high density.

What we have now is market driven property speculation - hence the poorer residents are being displaced by those able to afford high rents or large mortgages. What is amazing is the scale of it.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> It matters completly because i think as much as you push the fact a way Brixton was gentrifide many many years ago. This is why I find the word 'gentrification / reclaim ' so stupid because Brixton was for the affluent. It has just done a full circle.


the power of capital to continuously rearrange communities is not a force of nature and is not one people have to take on the chin and say, oh its just a cycle, it just the way the world turns. people build communities and connections over decades and have every right to stay in them and remain living with their friends and family, continue to run their little businesses they have over years etc etc. These forces can be stopped, communities can be protected - its not inevitable.


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## Belushi (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> It matters completly because i think as much as you push the fact a way Brixton was gentrifide many many years ago. This is why I find the word 'gentrification / reclaim ' so stupid because Brixton was for the affluent. It has just done a full circle.



I don't think you really understand what gentrification is tbh.


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

editor said:


> That's too simplistic to even bother with, sorry.


But true! I'm sure people have been pushed out before.... It's just a vicious citcle


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## cesare (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> But true! I'm sure people have been pushed out before.... It's just a vicious citcle


That doesn't necessarily mean that people shouldn't try and break it.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Not really. If you consider how multi occupied houses which had become slums were cleared in Somerleyton Road/Loughborough Park so that Moorlands Estate and Barrier Block could be built. Or the clearances to build the two Loughborough estates, or Angell Rown, or Stockwell Park.
> 
> All these previous developments were politically motivated to rehouse working people to a decent standard in low cost council housing at high density.
> 
> What we have now is market driven property speculation - hence the poorer residents are being displaced by those able to afford high rents or large mortgages. What is amazing is the scale of it.


Why did they become slums? And what drove the reason for the clearance?


----------



## trabuquera (Apr 27, 2015)

Either this bloke writing in PROSPECT magazine doesn't understand what gentrification is either, or I've lost the plot in this narrative some time ago:

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blogs/jay-elwes/brixton-regained

it's well enough written but I don't think I agree with a word it says! "gentrification doesn't cause house prices to rise, it's the other way round" - eh?


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Go right ahead - it's a council flat and the council will be delighted to charge you with criminal damage, which carries a hefty fine.  Do try to make it non-racist and non-threatening (ie  nothing which encourages hate crimes) graffiti, or it'll be prioritised for removal by the maintenance crew.


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## CH1 (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Why did they become slums? And what drove the reason for the clearance?


Two reasons:
1. The houses were old - 1840s to 1870s
2. They were multi occupied and the landlords were maximising their return.

From the autobiography of Canon Charles Walker, who was a Catholic priest at Corpus Christi, Brixton Hill:

"In the late 1960s, the housing situation in Brixton was excruciating. Much of the housing stock was sub-standard; the was a chronic shortage of accommodation and lamentable over-crowding. Somerleyton Road and its adjacent streets were the horror story of the time. These streets were lined with big Victorian family houses on four floors with basement. All were in multiple occupation and in recent times many of the basements had been drinking dives. Most of the basements had been bricked up by the council by the time I got to Brixton. I estimated that one of these houses accommodated 40 souls. The landings commonly featured a cooker and piles of household impedimenta. I talked to a black lady on one of these landings during a visit to the house. She was trying to do some washing up in a bowl of water with two wide-eyed children clinging to her skirts. White and black people shared each other's poverty. I was called one night to an Irishman I knew who had died in a nearby room."


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

Some one has painted a tag on the Foxtons boarding. Let's see if what i said is true.


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## Greebo (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 what were you trying to say to me in post 975?


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## Nanker Phelge (Apr 27, 2015)

.


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## Nanker Phelge (Apr 27, 2015)

Greebo said:


> mwareing1 what were you trying to say to me in post 975?



Ignore it and it might go away


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## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

trabuquera said:


> Either this bloke writing in PROSPECT magazine doesn't understand what gentrification is either, or I've lost the plot in this narrative some time ago:
> 
> http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blogs/jay-elwes/brixton-regained
> 
> it's well enough written but I don't think I agree with a word it says! "gentrification doesn't cause house prices to rise, it's the other way round" - eh?


I think it's a dreadful article. "Shocking outbreak of violence" my arse.


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## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Some one has painted a tag on the Foxtons boarding. Let's see if what i said is true.


What does it say?


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Two reasons:
> 1. The houses were old - 1840s to 1870s
> 2. They were multi occupied and the landlords were maximising their return.
> 
> ...


Another major factor was with huge regeneration plans being touted from the 60s onwards, there was little incentive for landlords to update or maintain their properties: they were just happy to hang on and pick up a compensation cheque.


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## CH1 (Apr 27, 2015)

That is true - they knew they would likely get compulsorily purchased whatever they did.


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## stethoscope (Apr 27, 2015)

editor said:


> What does it say?



I'm hoping 'Don't panic, Mr mwareing1!'.



I'll get my coat.


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Two reasons:
> 1. The houses were old - 1840s to 1870s
> 2. They were multi occupied and the landlords were maximising their return.
> 
> ...


Really interesting. I must read more about this. And this all came about with the influx of west indies population etc


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Two reasons:
> 1. The houses were old - 1840s to 1870s
> 2. They were multi occupied and the landlords were maximising their return.


mwareing1

Brixton/Stockwell was a speculative development at a time when house building went bonkers (the Victorian period) Grumbles about over building in Stockwell were aired in 1844 in the Builders News as much of Stockwell had fine empty houses with lots of too let signs. They were built for the reclusive middle classes to have their suburban retreats but as the railway came  (and lots of poor people were displaced then) this started to affect the demographic. This was happening anyway as the rich rented (this is an important point) and so would regularly move to the next trendy point (occasionally settling for longer than a few years). As time went on, the type of people living in these 'posh' houses changed - as London in parts was over stocked with housing, builders and house owners struggled to fill some places and some houses were divided and room rented individually.

These places didn't tend to get repaired as much as they could do and this led to them being in a poor condition. Add to that the fact they completely went out of fashion (as CH1 mentioned) and the mansions style apartments were built.

History goes around in circles.  The poorer people with lack of choice have always been displaced when it is convenient.


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

editor said:


> What does it say?


Tell me how you load an image from my libary and I'll show you


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Sounds about right but I'm interested to hear what you think the area of Brixton was like in the 20s 30s etc. Was it gentrifide then?



I know what it was like - my great-gran and her family (2 adults, 6 kids) lived in 2 rooms in a "worker's terrace" on Mayall Rd in the late '20s/early '30s, with my nan working as a "maid" in one of the large houses on Water Lane. It was like most other places - prosperous enough on the main drags, but with the back streets crammed with the working class, and with some of the older (mid-Victorian) properties sub-divided and let a family to a room. Affluence in most areas with a mixed demographic was and is generally a partial thing, with pockets of wealth, larger stretches of people getting by in various states of security and insecurity, and a significant minority just about getting by, or just about failing to. Now and 85 years ago have a lot in common, including exploitative landlords. _Plus ça change..._


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## pesh (Apr 27, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Someone suggested a whip round for the owner of the trashed bicycle soundsystem - there were 2 systems and I can't tell them apart from the vids. The owner of the one which was trashed is the guy in the white t shirt and specs above. He won't mind me disclosing that. He's been at plenty of other local demos so he's probably a familiar face to many here. If anyone wants to contact him maybe a message on the noticeboard at 56A would work https://56abikespace.wordpress.com


top guy who always plays top tunes, pretty sure he was providing the soundtrack to the Thatcher party in the square a couple of years ago… i'm definitely up for bunging him a few quid towards rebuilding it bigger and better. if someone organised a kick-starter page with the Chaka Khan video on it he'd probably get enough to build a mobile stage let alone a bike.


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 27, 2015)

newbie said:


> ok thanks for that. I agree with you, it's obvious to see and hasn't changed hugely over the years.  The threat to social housing goes back to at least RTB, smaller shops have been squeezed locally for a good few years now, as the phone shops and other chains have moved in, though it's all gathering pace as the local state, via the council, proves ever more utterly ineffective at regulating and managing capital.  So yes, I'd agree with all of that.
> 
> It doesn't, however, address what was actually said, which was that there's only a difference between the chants "our streets" and "our Brixton" for those without a class analysis.  That is what I'd like someone to address.....
> 
> some of those chanting were black, some were white, some were local, some, well, I dunno.  It's not who chanted, but what was chanted that made me feel uncomfortable.  The claim that Brixton is 'Ours'.  It's snappy for sure, snappier than something about how Brixton is for the people that live here and not just a cashcow for Lexadon, Network Rail, or Foxtons, or the so called co-operative Labour council.  But both the slogan and the insults and putdowns on this thread say quite clearly to me that "Our Brixton" is pretty exclusive. Which is a shame, because that wasn't the general feel of the protest (which was inclusive), wasn't what was being said over the PA and isn't the basis for an effective campaign.


I think it is their Brixton, but its your Brixton and my Brixton too. 
I think we need to remind Lambeth, the police and the govt, that they are here to represent us - they do not 'own' the place.


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> mwareing1
> 
> Brixton/Stockwell was a speculative development at a time when house building went bonkers (the Victorian period) Grumbles about over building in Stockwell were aired in 1844 in the Builders News as much of Stockwell had fine empty houses with lots of too let signs. They were built for the reclusive middle classes to have their suburban retreats but as the railway came  (and lots of poor people were displaced then) this started to affect the demographic. This was happening anyway as the rich rented (this is an important point) and so would regularly move to the next trendy point (occasionally settling for longer than a few years). As time went on, the type of people living in these 'posh' houses changed - as London in parts was over stocked with housing, builders and house owners struggled to fill some places and some houses were divided and room rented individually.
> 
> ...


I think some people on here need to read this. As I said it is just a circle of history repeating its self! Sad but true


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> So its just one big circle. The Victorians thought it had potential and now in 2015 the potential has come again. The one thing you can't change about Brixton is its position on the map. This is what is driving the wheel



Trite shite. If it were dependent on "position on the map", then Brixton would have gentrified *prior* to many other more outlying and less transport-rich parts of southwest and southeast London.


----------



## Belushi (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> I think some people on here need to read this. As I said it is just a circle of history repeating its self! Sad but true


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I know what it was like - my great-gran and her family (2 adults, 6 kids) lived in 2 rooms in a "worker's terrace" on Mayall Rd in the late '20s/early '30s, with my nan working as a "maid" in one of the large houses on Water Lane. It was like most other places - prosperous enough on the main drags, but with the back streets crammed with the working class, and with some of the older (mid-Victorian) properties sub-divided and let a family to a room. Affluence in most areas with a mixed demographic was and is generally a partial thing, with pockets of wealth, larger stretches of people getting by in various states of security and insecurity, and a significant minority just about getting by, or just about failing to. Now and 85 years ago have a lot in common, including exploitative landlords. _Plus ça change..._


Very interesting. So what your saying we've been here before. How very sad that still we are in the same predicament nearly 100 years on....so it's not Reclaim at all as what date are we reclaiming ???????


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 27, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> It took time, but it was inevitable. The Victoria Line was the first "gentrifier" of recent decades imho, allowing folk quick passage to central London and back. It's not that Brixton exists in it's own little bubble either, just go and check property prices in Streatham...
> A work colleague can't find a place to rent / buy in his home town of Beckenham, and is looking outside of London now. The "Reclaim Brixton" issue just mirrors what a mess property is all over the London area, question is: which political party has the cajones to tackle it?


The problems here are London problems. I fear the govt, the councils and the property developers are all far to close.
Is it the old boys network, business connections or corruption?


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> It matters completly because i think as much as you push the fact a way Brixton was gentrifide many many years ago. This is why I find the word 'gentrification / reclaim ' so stupid because Brixton was for the affluent. It has just done a full circle.



Brixton *wasn't* "for the affluent". Back then developers had a little more sense than nowadays insofar as they built workers' housing as well as homes for the posh. As has been emphasised over and over again, *PARTS* of Brixton were for the affluent, not all of it. Streets were built to house rail workers,  to house those who worked in the posh shops etc etc.
The only stupid thing here is your wilful ignorance.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Trite shite. If it were dependent on "position on the map", then Brixton would have gentrified *prior* to many other more outlying and less transport-rich parts of southwest and southeast London.


You just said:
'Now and 85 years ago have a lot in common'


----------



## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> I think some people on here need to read this. As I said it is just a circle of history repeating its self! Sad but true



It's not quite that simple. It's a bit more complex than that. And would be nice to think that some efforts to challenge aspects of this change might have some impact. We are in a much better position than the Victorian poor were.

The problem is this movement of those who can't afford it isn't just in Brixton but across London so even if people look to settle in new spaces unless they can buy somewhere they will be moved on.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Brixton *wasn't* "for the affluent". Back then developers had a little more sense than nowadays insofar as they built workers' housing as well as homes for the posh. As has been emphasised over and over again, *PARTS* of Brixton were for the affluent, not all of it. Streets were built to house rail workers,  to house those who worked in the posh shops etc etc.
> The only stupid thing here is your wilful ignorance.



No need to be rude at the end!!! never going to convince someone of your argument if you call them a fool at the end!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Very interesting. So what your saying we've been here before. How very sad that still we are in the same predicament nearly 100 years on....so it's not Reclaim at all as what date are we reclaiming ???????



No, I'm not saying that we've been here before, I'm saying that the class demographic of those times was considerably broader, and that currently it's narrowing.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Brixton *wasn't* "for the affluent". Back then developers had a little more sense than nowadays insofar as they built workers' housing as well as homes for the posh. As has been emphasised over and over again, *PARTS* of Brixton were for the affluent, not all of it. Streets were built to house rail workers,  to house those who worked in the posh shops etc etc.
> The only stupid thing here is your wilful ignorance.


There was a reason why they built those houses for the rich. Selfish reasons


----------



## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Brixton *wasn't* "for the affluent". Back then developers had a little more sense than nowadays insofar as they built workers' housing as well as homes for the posh. As has been emphasised over and over again, *PARTS* of Brixton were for the affluent, not all of it. Streets were built to house rail workers,  to house those who worked in the posh shops etc etc.



Online booth maps are really interesting  and his comments ( if you can read the handwriting)


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> There was a reason why they built those houses for the rich. Selfish reasons



Again that simplifies it too. A lot of people building in the Victorian period were trying their luck . Some did alright but many only built one of two places and a lot of people lost a lot of money. And it wasn't necessarily rich/middle class people but those who could buy up a little plot and build on it.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> It's not quite that simple. It's a bit more complex than that. And would be nice to think that some efforts to challenge aspects of this change might have some impact. We are in a much better position than the Victorian poor were.
> 
> The problem is this movement of those who can't afford it isn't just in Brixton but across London so even if people look to settle in new spaces unless they can buy somewhere they will be moved on.


I wonder in the Victorian era it would take over 7 months to repair 2 escalators?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 27, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> So people should be displaced from family, friends and community at the whim of capital?


I'm sure some of them would still send us to the colonies if they could ...


----------



## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> I wonder in the Victorian era it would take over 7 months to repair 2 escalators?


Who knows.... lots of great ideas in the Victorian period either failed miserably, didn't get off the ground very well or lost loads of money.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Again that simplifies it too. A lot of people building in the Victorian period were trying their luck . Some did alright but many only built one of two places and a lot of people lost a lot of money. And it wasn't necessarily rich/middle class people but those who could buy up a little plot and build on it.


Sorry I meant poor


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Two reasons:
> 1. The houses were old - 1840s to 1870s
> 2. They were multi occupied and the landlords were maximising their return.
> 
> ...



Some of them were already like that in the '30s - one of the drivers for some of the Brixton _bourgeoisie_ to form a branch of the BUF - they didn't object to the wealthy Jews who lived in some of the suburban villas, but they really didn't like the proximity of all those Paddies and Kikes and other povs who provided the workforce.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I'm sure some of them would still send us to the colonies if they could ...


yep - I believe that. We are in the way of the place being sold to the highest bidder.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Really interesting. I must read more about this. And this all came about with the influx of west indies population etc



No, it didn't.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Who knows.... lots of great ideas in the Victorian period either failed miserably, didn't get off the ground very well or lost loads of money.


Like The Dome ha ha


----------



## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Sorry I meant poor


Blimey -are you drinking on the internet? 

Not to clear about your argument.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Like The Dome ha ha


dome is not Victorian - Crystal Palace struggled - lot of similarity between these spaces.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, it didn't.


Enlighten me


----------



## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Enlighten me


I suggest you get some books out about local history, look on urban, talk to the Brixton society, visit the archives. You clearly have a passion for this investigation into history. I recommend Dyos' book on the Victorian suburb about Camberwell. An excellent account of how London developed certainly in one area.

Then come back and tell us what you have learned.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Enlighten me


I've already mentioned (twice!) that there were already sub-divided homes in Brixton in the '20s and '30s, ergo your point that "this all came about with the influx of west indies population etc" is a load of shite. Windrush was post-war, slum housing in Brixton came long before the _Empire Windrush_ did.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> You just said:
> 'Now and 85 years ago have a lot in common'



You appear to believe that "a lot in common" means "everything in common". It doesn't.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> The problems here are London problems. I fear the govt, the councils and the property developers are all far to close.
> Is it the old boys network, business connections or corruption?



It's all three, plus the 4 decade-old problem of the gutting of local authority powers and the centralisation of much of their remit (which has *facilitated* town hall corruption because scrutiny too is centralised).


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 27, 2015)

The daily mash has it about right: 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*THE Guardian has condemned the middle-class gentrification of Brixton by its own readers.*

The paper has backed the Reclaim Brixton campaign to stop working-class, ethnic minority groups being priced out of the London borough by white, liberal, middle-class people who work in the media.

Nikki Hollis, a _Guardian_ columnist who lives in Brixton, said: “I’m having all my dreadful friends over for supper so we can discuss what to do about ourselves.

“We’ll probably force one of the local delis out of business, which would make the area five percent less desirable.”

Guardian reader Tom Logan said: “Brixton has changed so much since I moved here from Guildford six months ago to the flat my parents bought me on Coldharbour Lane.

“The African-Caribbean community is being forced out by white_Guardian_ readers who want to live here because it’s associated with riots and reggae.”

He added: “I live here because The Clash once wrote a song about it, which is totally different.”

Donna Sheridan, 61, who moved to Brixton from Trinidad in 1965, said: “I think the _Guardian_ readers are quite nice. Completely full of shit, but nice.”

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...m-brixton-from-guardian-readers-2015042797754


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> It's not quite that simple. It's a bit more complex than that. And would be nice to think that some efforts to challenge aspects of this change might have some impact. We are in a much better position than the Victorian poor were.
> 
> The problem is this movement of those who can't afford it isn't just in Brixton but across London so even if people look to settle in new spaces unless they can buy somewhere they will be moved on.



Social housing is a large part of the basis of "we" being in a better position. Unfortunately it's something that local government is desperate to undermine in pursuit of building new homes which won't actually be social housing, but rather subject to the whims of whoever owns or co-owns the SPV built to finance the demolition of social housing for the construction of not-social housing.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 27, 2015)

trabuquera said:


> Either this bloke writing in PROSPECT magazine doesn't understand what gentrification is either, or I've lost the plot in this narrative some time ago:
> 
> http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blogs/jay-elwes/brixton-regained
> 
> it's well enough written but I don't think I agree with a word it says! "gentrification doesn't cause house prices to rise, it's the other way round" - eh?


Not it's their argument, but there is a point in that the current round of gentrification in London is outside of the usual feedback loop which we've seen in the past.

Previously you would get an area becoming trendy and more desirable, richer people buying property there, rents going up because of that and forcing out older residents and businesses, and average prices increasing so that the minimum level is raised even higher and so on and so on. That's certainly happened in the past in Brixton.

OTOH now in London we just have all property going massively up in price no matter where it is. This causes similar social effects simply because of the money involved but it's harder to stop given that prices are going up for reasons outside of the usual loop.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> No need to be rude at the end!!! never going to convince someone of your argument if you call them a fool at the end!!



TBF, I'm not making my argument for that particular poster, but for the slightly-less emptyheaded readers who may come later.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> There was a reason why they built those houses for the rich. Selfish reasons



Yes, and...?


----------



## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Social housing is a large part of the basis of "we" being in a better position. Unfortunately it's something that local government is desperate to undermine in pursuit of building new homes which won't actually be social housing, but rather subject to the whims of whoever owns or co-owns the SPV built to finance the demolition of social housing for the construction of not-social housing.



Yes - something that came about at the end of the VIctorian era and looks set to be eroded even more than it has been over the next ten, twenty (however long it takes to totally destroy it).

There is a real sense of the 'normal' people really not mattering.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Online booth maps are really interesting  and his comments ( if you can read the handwriting)



I've read Mayhew, and have looked at Booth's maps, although with both I'm always a bit deterred by the "well-meaning do-gooder" tone, IYSWIM. Booth's maps, though, were probably the first meaningful piece of what's now called "human geography" in the UK, and certainly set the cat among the pigeons!


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You can kind of date it into 3 (somewhat overlapping) blocks,to my way of thinking, which is the "Bohemian" (for want of a better all-round term) block of settlement where the squatters and the "arty types" colonised Brixton because it was cheap, cheerful and inclusive. You could roughly date this from the '70s until the mid-'90s, and it included people buying because you could still get "bang for buck" in terms of the number of bedrooms your money would buy, if you didn't mind some of the local peculiarities.
> You then had a "mainstreaming" block, which you could date from the early '90s to around 2012, where Brixton became more of a mainstream housing destination for people not deterred by folk-myth and hysteria, where a lot of people bought or rented because it made financial sense to, and who came to love the local cultures. As with the previous block, this was fairly slow and steady, although it also saw the loss (to development) of several community assets such as Cooltan.
> From roughly 2010-ish (would probably have been a little  earlier but for _das finanzkreis_) gentrification has hyper-accelerated. rather than the "slow and steady" change of the previous two blocks - which although they displaced people, tended to displace to nearby _locales_ - gentrification in Lambeth in general - and Brixton in particular - has been fast and brutal, with the local authority leading the way in that brutality with the clearance/eviction of short-life tenants from suddenly-valuable town-centre properties, and the minimisation of their obligations to those they displaced. Speculative buying of property is also a borough-wide (and city-wide) problem, as is the development of "luxury homes" for sale - it changes expectations and markets. What has also driven this is the realisation by various commercial entities of those changed expectations, and their attempts (as diverse as Lexadon's property rentals and Shrub & Shutter's cocktails in a jamjar) to cash in on it. Short-termist profit-making is triumphing over long-term community interests and needs - Brixton is being made over in the image of a group of people who have little interest in the place or the communities, only in the profits realisable, or the social capital accrued from living somewhere "edgy".
> 
> The above is a fairly well-simplified overview.


Do you think that Brixton needs reclaiming from all these Bohemians, arty types and gentrifiers? 
Should I pack my bags now?


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, I'm not making my argument for that particular poster, but for the slightly-less emptyheaded readers who may come later.



So less rudeness on the end so that they read your sensible and interesting addition to the conversation rather than get irritated at your ranty bit.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> I wonder in the Victorian era it would take over 7 months to repair 2 escalators?



For most of the Victorian era there were no escalators, just lifts.


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've read Mayhew, and have looked at Booth's maps, although with both I'm always a bit deterred by the "well-meaning do-gooder" tone, IYSWIM. Booth's maps, though, were probably the first meaningful piece of what's now called "human geography" in the UK, and certainly set the cat among the pigeons!



I don't mind the "well-meaning do gooder" bit - many of these people did set out to help poorer people - because they felt it was their godly duty - but I think I prefer that over and above this current batch of rich people who overall really don't give a toss.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've read Mayhew, and have looked at Booth's maps, although with both I'm always a bit deterred by the "well-meaning do-gooder" tone, IYSWIM. Booth's maps, though, were probably the first meaningful piece of what's now called "human geography" in the UK, and certainly set the cat among the pigeons!


the soho cholera map


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## Citizen66 (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> It depends what you want and what quality of life you want to lead. Bringing a family up in any city is always going to be expensive. Some times y



Oh shut up you daft prick.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Do you think that Brixton needs reclaiming from all these Bohemians, arty types and gentrifiers?
> Should I pack my bags now?



I think Brixton needs reclaiming from speculators and those out to make a quick buck. it *doesn't* need reclaiming from people who love Brixton and contribute to its' communities, but rather from those who seek to profit by commodifying the Brixton *we* (those who love it) helped make.


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Oh shut up you daft prick.



Shhh - stop shouting. No need to! Shouting usually is a sign that you haven't got a decent argument.


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I suggest you get some books out about local history, look on urban, talk to the Brixton society, visit the archives. You clearly have a passion for this investigation into history. I recommend Dyos' book on the Victorian suburb about Camberwell. An excellent account of how London developed certainly in one area.
> 
> Then come back and tell us what you have learned.


Brilliant.


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## T & P (Apr 27, 2015)

For all I know it might have also happened in previous 'eras' of gentrification, but what is criminal this time around is that social housing seems to be deliberately being targeted by the very government bodies in charge of looking after it. There appears to be a conscious effort to replace much of the existing vital social housing with private dwellings to whom the majority of social tenants will have no economic means to get access to, and who likely be offered accommodation far away from the area and community they've lived in for many years.

The more visible and much-talked about signs of gentrification- such as the arrival of 'hipster' types to the area and upmarket shops and bars opening up- are in my view both a consequence not a cause, and a distraction not really worth wasting time about. I'm aware many disagree with this sentiment. But the plight of social tenants as a direct result of Lambeth's plans in collusion with property developers is a scandal about which all of us who are not property developers should be united on.


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## David Clapson (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Brilliant.



Extra points if you discover the pivotal role of dust.


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Brilliant.



I can pm you a list of good London books which should give you an interested rounded view. Or come over for a cup of tea and I will take you through a teary eyed story of my childhood in Brixton in the 1980s... (I'm serious!!)


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Yes - something that came about at the end of the VIctorian era and looks set to be eroded even more than it has been over the next ten, twenty (however long it takes to totally destroy it).
> 
> There is a real sense of the 'normal' people really not mattering.



In my purely-personal opinion, the "death of politics" (well, credible *party* politics) has meant that "normal people" have far less leverage on govt (and especially local govt) than they had 30 years ago, and this in turn has allowed a species of glib semi-professional hucksters to permeate the wards - a type exemplified by Steve Reed - rather than the traditional fare of civic-minded people wanting to do their bit, with just one or two power-hungry knobbers per party. This being the case, we *don't* matter, because the only influence we have is at best the power to vote them out at the end of the political cycle.


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think Brixton needs reclaiming from speculators and those out to make a quick buck. it *doesn't* need reclaiming from people who love Brixton and contribute to its' communities, but rather from those who seek to profit by commodifying the Brixton *we* (those who love it) helped make.


Would you want Brixton to be like it was 10 years a go needing a bit of TLC. Politics a side at least money is being spent to preserve the buildings and architecture


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> So less rudeness on the end so that they read your sensible and interesting addition to the conversation rather than get irritated at your ranty bit.



Sorry mum!


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Would you want Brixton to be like it was 10 years a go needing a bit of TLC. Politics a side at least money is being spent to preserve the buildings and architecture



You've missed the point. Again.


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I can pm you a list of good London books which should give you an interested rounded view. Or come over for a cup of tea and I will take you through a teary eyed story of my childhood in Brixton in the 1980s... (I'm serious!!)


Let me start with the books....and I will let you know how I got on ;-)


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## David Clapson (Apr 27, 2015)

T & P said:


> For all I know it might have also happened in previous 'eras' of gentrification, but what is criminal this time around is that social housing seems to be deliberately being targeted by the very government bodies in charge of looking after it. There appears to be a conscious effort to replace much of the existing vital social housing with private dwellings to whom the majority of social tenants will have no economic means to get access to, and who likely be offered accommodation far away from the area and community they've lived in for many years.
> 
> The more visible and much-talked about signs of gentrification- such as the arrival of 'hipster' types to the area and upmarket shops and bars opening up- are in my view both a consequence not a cause, and a distraction not really worth wasting time about. I'm aware many disagree with this sentiment. But the plight of social tenants as a direct result of Lambeth's plans in collusion with property developers is a scandal about which all of us who are not property developers should be united on.


Agree 1000%. Cameron's recent offer of more right-to-buy was in my view the immoral and moronic low point of his premiership; his Blair-invading-Iraq moment.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Shhh - stop shouting. No need to! Shouting usually is a sign that you haven't got a decent argument.



Or that I couldn't be bothered. I did actually attempt to write something.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I can pm you a list of good London books which should give you an interested rounded view. Or come over for a cup of tea and I will take you through a teary eyed story of my childhood in Brixton in the 1980s... (I'm serious!!)



Oops, shouldn't have called you "mum". If your childhood was in the '80s, you're younger than me!


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, I'm not making my argument for that particular poster, but for the slightly-less emptyheaded readers who may come later.


Oh great......


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## mwareing1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oops, shouldn't have called you "mum". If your childhood was in the '80s, you're younger than me!


I think its because you think you know every thing Panda. Maybe just maybe you dont


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> I think its because you think you know every thing Panda. Maybe just maybe you dont



I don't think anything of the sort. I'm just old enough to have experienced a lot of life and to have taken on board the lessons I've been offered.
The fact that you offer up an "argument" about me thinking that I know everything says quite a bit more about you, than about me, though. Well done!


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 27, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Would you want Brixton to be like it was 10 years a go needing a bit of TLC. Politics a side at least money is being spent to preserve the buildings and architecture


I recall Brixton was ok 10 years ago, but thats just my opinion. I'm not sure what is better now
I love urban architecture, I'm a townie, but I would ask who is preserving the buildings and for whom? 
eg. If Lambeth was proposing demolishing Olive Morris House in order to build council houses, I doubt many people would be objecting. If network rail was renovating the arches for the benefit of their existing tenents, I doubt customers would have been out on saturday holding hands.


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## story (Apr 27, 2015)

newbie said:


> well no, it would have been pointless to try to challenge it yesterday.  But I thought it worth raising it today because I read it as being divisive.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, and part of the point of yesterday was to emphasise division between those who've been here a short time- the 'yuppies'- and those who've been here long enough to claim it's 'OUR Brixton'.  How long is that?



I think you're wrong, yes. When I was in amongst people shouting that, it was being called by everyone who was there: young, old, black, white, men, women, people who looked like they were probably recent incomers, and others who've lived here for a long old while. There was no segregation or apartheid of any kind in the crowd. It was a very mixed group of all aspects of Brixton. I made a particular effort to look at the crowd to see who was calling that chant, exactly because I was wondering about it. I was very cheered and reassured to see that people who appeared to me to be recent incomers were side by side with older more "traditional" Brixtonians.

The issue, for me, is about the craven exploitation of a place, a location, a community, a way of living, a local culture, that is in many ways unique to Brixton.

As has been discussed, Brixton has always been a place of change. That's one of the things that makes it what it is. But these recent changes have a kind of groupie wannabe aspect. Like everyone suddenly discovering the hot new band and trying to pretend they've been into them for aaaages.

I've been in Brixton since about 1987. These most recent changes feel as if a whole culture - a largely white privileged culture at that - has been parachuted in. It's like regime change, or colonialisation.




newbie said:


> the people chanting were those seeking claim "OUR Brixton" to the exclusion of other people.  I'd have thought that was obvious, even just from youtube or flikr.



I wandered through Brixton markets before during and after the demo. There were loads of people simply going about their business: an old man skanking gently to _My Boy Lollipop_ on Station Road, biddies with their shopping trollies, mothers dragging children in and out of shops and along the markets, plenty of people in the eateries with their toddlers, lots and lots of people who may or may not have known or cared about the demo going on nearby, not bothered, not interested, too busy, whatever. To my mind, most if not all of them were "Our Brixton" people, wanting to simply live and shop and socialise and move about in Brixton without feeling as if they were in any way different from each other, or at risk of being unable for reasons of money to continue living and eating and shopping in Brixton. None of them were demonstrating or chanting. But they were in no way being excluded by the chanting: the chanting was in defence of their normal Saturday afternoon.

Or so it seemed to me.



BigMoaner said:


> surely the ideal is to get everyone, rich, young, poor, old, etc, etc wanting change in brixton. wanting to screw the greedy landlords, the heartless local politicians. no matter how long someone has been in brixton, if you live there you have a right to say "we don;t want our town turned into a rich ghetto". keep fighting!



Yes, and that's why I liked it so much that there were several different types of demo and actio., and all of those I saw involved people from all walks of life.

It felt very inclusive to me.




Up the junction said:


> Indeed, at worst it is a parasite though, arguably, more properly the agent of parasites.



Having had recent cause to talk to estate agents, the local independents (Eden Harper, Martin Barry) both roll their eyes at Foxtons and say that they are known in the trade to hike their prices by 25% as a matter of course. It gets the seller to put their property on with them, and even if they have to drop the price, they get the commission. If they know they've overvalued a property (which they do) they just let it rot on the market for a month or so, then advise the owner to drop the price. There are enough people willing or able or foolish enough to pay the higher price to make it worth their while, and that hikes the price of property locally. Their valuer doesn't live locally, he comes in from an office in North London and values properties here on the fly, in and out the door in 15 minutes. And he's known in the trade to be (and I quote) "A real bell end".

Foxtons are scum. So are Kinleigh Folkard & Hayward.



mwareing1 said:


> I don't think smashing up a place you love is very unique, but that's just my opinion



Just gonna add my voice to the earlier chorus saying that the places that were targeted are not loved by the local community.





As for the thing about it being a shame that a broken window and storming the police station made the news at the expense of the story of the peaceful demo: well of course the headline is about the direct action; but those stories I saw in the press did also cover the reasons for the demo and the fact that it was also/mostly happy and peaceful. More importantly, most people these days are fairly savvy about googling to learn more about news that interests them. Didn't shaman75 say that the video of people dancing on the blocked A23 had had 40 thousand views and shares? People will surf and link from one story to another and get an idea of the background very easily and naturally. It's a cliche (cos it's true) that if there'd been no broken window, there'd be no headline, and the whole day would have been a footnote rather than a story. Because of Brixton's history (civil disobedience, Thatcher death parties, uprisings and riots etc), any story about any action here will draw interest.


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Or that I couldn't be bothered. I did actually attempt to write something.


Shouting makes you look silly...

*ruffles citizen66's hair*


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oops, shouldn't have called you "mum". If your childhood was in the '80s, you're younger than me!


Well I was ten in 1983 if that helps so really I'm was little in the late 1970s.


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I recall Brixton was ok 10 years ago, but thats just my opinion. I'm not sure what is better now
> I love urban architecture, I'm a townie, but I would ask who is preserving the buildings and for whom?
> eg. If Lambeth was proposing demolishing Olive Morris House in order to build council houses, I doubt many people would be objecting. If network rail was renovating the arches for the benefit of their existing tenents, I doubt customers would have been out on saturday holding hands.



Seem there was a time that preserving was about protecting heritage - now it whether you can make a place prettier and more interesting so you can sell it to people who know little about it 0 like providing a provenance to the space that improves its value.


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## story (Apr 27, 2015)

Oh, and I meant to say: that thing about the youngsters being annoyed about not being able to get a bus: well young'uns often feel aggrieved about anything that obstructs their own plans. And in contrast to what you, newbie , overheard, I offer this in contrast: I was walking up the Hill and fell into step with a very pregnant woman who said "Whoo! No buses!", so I said "Yeah, cos of the demo, I hope you've not got far to go." She said she wished she could be at the demo herself because she wanted her child to grow up in the Brixton she knows and loves and she's worried about the changes, she was glad someone is trying to reclaim Brixton from the Guppies [sic].


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 27, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Only if you're inward looking and with no class analysis.


I don't think we should all need a fucking degree in economic or political history to post here. I don't need 'class analysis' to know when people are being shafted.



newbie said:


> snip...
> and while there are aspects of class involved here I don't think deploying class as part of this discussion will achieve anything other than division.  Neither existing communities nor any of the wave after wave of incomers are delineated by class, and this notion that all incomers are m/c is just lazy stereotyping.


I agree. There has a lot of divisiveness on these boards when we could all support the issues.
Those in power like it when people fight amongst themselves, they know it distracts us from fighting them.
Why else would they try to divide us into strivers and skivers? I hear lots of my low paid co-workers who have bought into this lie and will argue against their own neighbours/communities.


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

^^^ this. Too much name calling on this board when we need to come together to fight for the things that matter.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> ^^^ this. Too much name calling on this board when we need to come together to fight for the things that matter.


not enough name calling on this board and too much unanimity


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 27, 2015)

story said:


> snip...
> I was very cheered and reassured to see that people who appeared to me to be recent incomers were side by side with older more "traditional" Brixtonians.
> 
> The issue, for me, is about the craven exploitation of a place, a location, a community, a way of living, a local culture, that is in many ways unique to Brixton.
> ...


Yes. Brixton always felt generally full of people who didn't care where you are from or what you do or why you have a funny haircut. Everyone was tolerated. Coming from a small town, small minded, close knit community - Brixton felt like freedom. 

I think any protests need to be inclusive of all the people of Brixton, including ones you don't like, if they are to succeed.


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> not enough name calling on this board and too much unanimity


I'll try to be less careful with my spelling and grammar to give you something to pick at...
oh come on - give us a smile...


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> not enough name calling on this board and too much unanimity



Stop it now.  Do I need to post pics of kittens and fluffy stuff to make you happy?

Interesting article about ancient wall make you feel better?:

http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015/04/27/medieval-river-wall-uncovered-in-parliament-gardens/


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Well I was ten in 1983 if that helps so really I'm was little in the late 1970s.



Still makes you over a decade younger than me!


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Seem there was a time that preserving was about protecting heritage - now it whether you can make a place prettier and more interesting so you can sell it to people who know little about it 0 like providing a provenance to the space that improves its value.



History reduced to a "selling point".


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Still makes you over a decade younger than me!



Old fart.... whoops! name calling!!!


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 27, 2015)

story said:


> Oh, and I meant to say: that thing about the youngsters being annoyed about not being able to get a bus: well young'uns often feel aggrieved about anything that obstructs their own plans. And in contrast to what you, newbie , overheard, I offer this in contrast: I was walking up the Hill and fell into step with a very pregnant woman who said "Whoo! No buses!", so I said "Yeah, cos of the demo, I hope you've not got far to go." She said she wished she could be at the demo herself because she wanted her child to grow up in the Brixton she knows and loves and she's worried about the changes, she was glad someone is trying to reclaim Brixton from the Guppies [sic].


damn those guppies


----------



## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> History reduced to a "selling point".



Feels like it. Look what is happening to central London as more high rises take away London's more traditional skyline and things are only protected if they can really be justified. I am reporting the disappearance of the murals in the Elephant and Castle subways as they get buried. They reflect the diversity and history of the area and the burying of the paintings of this seems to symbolise what will happen once the nu-heygate is finished and the shopping centre changes.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I don't think we should all need a fucking degree in economic or political history to post here. I don't need 'class analysis' to know when people are being shafted.



To be fair, you're doing "class analysis" every time you sit down and think about *how* people are getting shafted. "Class analysis" isn't about being able to quote Marx or understand the intricacies of all three volumes of "Capital", it's about recognising the reality of most shafting-like social situations being based on the oppression of one group by another.	



> I agree. There has a lot of divisiveness on these boards when we could all support the issues.
> Those in power like it when people fight amongst themselves, they know it distracts us from fighting them.
> Why else would they try to divide us into strivers and skivers? I hear lots of my low paid co-workers who have bought into this lie and will argue against their own neighbours/communities.



In my own personal experience, arguing on here has honed my arguments "out there". Rather than distracting me, I've been able to tackle the powerful cogently and coherently.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Old fart.... whoops! name calling!!!



Doh! Why you...I oughta....


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> damn those guppies



I for one welcome our new piscine overlords. All hail the shiny fantailed master!


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Feels like it. Look what is happening to central London as more high rises take away London's more traditional skyline and things are only protected if they can really be justified. I am reporting the disappearance of the murals in the Elephant and Castle subways as they get buried. They reflect the diversity and history of the area and the burying of the paintings of this seems to symbolise what will happen once the nu-heygate is finished and the shopping centre changes.



The fate of the Heygate always brings a wry smile to my face, knowing my parents were evicted (along with my toddler brother and an infant me) from their private rental slum bedsitter after the landlord got CPOd to make way for the Heygate. The circle of London life writ small. 

The problem you mention is not just London-wide, either, sadly. It's anywhere that the past can be packaged into something that can be sold - a no-longer-used town hall sold to a developer and internally-divided into flats and given a twee slightly-referential name (happened in Norfolk). 3-4 century-old tithe barns turned into holiday accommodation - all that sort of stuff that shows no...well, I was going to say reverence, but it doesn't even show a modicum of respect for history, IMO.


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## boohoo (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The fate of the Heygate always brings a wry smile to my face, knowing my parents were evicted (along with my toddler brother and an infant me) from their private rental slum bedsitter after the landlord got CPOd to make way for the Heygate. The circle of London life writ small.
> 
> The problem you mention is not just London-wide, either, sadly. It's anywhere that the past can be packaged into something that can be sold - a no-longer-used town hall sold to a developer and internally-divided into flats and given a twee slightly-referential name (happened in Norfolk). 3-4 century-old tithe barns turned into holiday accommodation - all that sort of stuff that shows no...well, I was going to say reverence, but it doesn't even show a modicum of respect for history, IMO.



I've got a book of Elephant and Castle History if you want to borrow it. I was born at Lambeth Hospital up that way.

I briefly lived in a tower block on Hackney downs - it was interesting to see that it had replaced nice large Victorian houses in about 1972. Five of the six block built were pulled down in the late 1990s.

Here's my block (sorry it's a Top Gear clip ):



What replaced it was all low rise housing on a similar scale to that which had been removed!

Lots of nice looking buildings with a story are being sold off to be turned into flats - the police station in Penge is one example.


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> To be fair, you're doing "class analysis" every time you sit down and think about *how* people are getting shafted. "Class analysis" isn't about being able to quote Marx or understand the intricacies of all three volumes of "Capital", it's about recognising the reality of most shafting-like social situations being based on the oppression of one group by another.
> 
> 
> 
> In my own personal experience, arguing on here has honed my arguments "out there". Rather than distracting me, I've been able to tackle the powerful cogently and coherently.


Thanks. So many threads on urban make me feel that no ones allowed to join in unless they can quote Marx. Its a odd elitism.

I wasn't really sure what the 'Reclaim Brixton' day of protest was about from this thread. Many posters here have been aggressive to any view that isn't their own, I really thought I might not be welcome on day. That's why I went to see for myself, and I heard some really interesting viewpoints. I neatly combined all the various campaigns around Lambeth including housing, the arches, the markets, the libraries etc in a way that didn't put anyone down, other than the councillors and politicians.


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## shaman75 (Apr 27, 2015)

story said:


> Didn't shaman75 say that the video of people dancing on the blocked A23 had had 40 thousand views and shares?



114,406 Views and 1,437 shares atm


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Thanks. So many threads on urban make me feel that no ones allowed to join in unless they can quote Marx. Its a odd elitism.



I think part of it depends on the political _milieu_ in which you were raised - I was fortunate to grow up in an environment which was not only permeated by class politics, but was also rife with examples of classism, so I got to know Marx, but at the same time as learning practical working-class everyday politics like never giving a fascist, racist or queer-basher an even break.
TBF, Marx's analysis is fit for the industrial era, not the post-industrial era. While we can draw lessons from it, we can't really apply it meaningfully to the modern day without re-writing it to take into account 160+ years of changing social and industrial circumstances, so while quoting him is an okay party trick, it's pretty meaningless in terms of gauging someone's analysis of or commitment to class politics! 



> I wasn't really sure what the 'Reclaim Brixton' day of protest was about from this thread. Many posters here have been aggressive to any view that isn't their own, I really thought I might not be welcome on day. That's why I went to see for myself, and I heard some really interesting viewpoints. I neatly combined all the various campaigns around Lambeth including housing, the arches, the markets, the libraries etc in a way that didn't put anyone down, other than the councillors and politicians.



Posters do tend to be volubly defensive of their own viewpoints, and sometimes I think it can crowd out those who are less assertive. That said, in my experience if you're making a decent point, most people will eventually listen once they've told you that you're wrong!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I've got a book of Elephant and Castle History if you want to borrow it. I was born at Lambeth Hospital up that way.



Thanks. I'll take you up on the loan offer once I've thinned the embarrassingly-large "to read" pile that I've allowed to build up. 



> I briefly lived in a tower block on Hackney downs - it was interesting to see that it had replaced nice large Victorian houses in about 1972. Five of the six block built were pulled down in the late 1990s.
> 
> Here's my block (sorry it's a Top Gear clip ):
> 
> ...




Planners realised you could achieve the same housing density with low rise, without many of the attendant maintenance problems, and obviating some of the social problems.



> Lots of nice looking buildings with a story are being sold off to be turned into flats - the police station in Penge is one example.



Was it replaced?


----------



## boohoo (Apr 28, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Was it replaced?



I don't think the police station has been replaced - according to the internet it once was the oldest working police station in London.


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 28, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, and...?


Right or wrong it's just history repeating its self.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 28, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Right or wrong it's just history repeating its self.


The same could be said about genocide; even if there's a tendancy for things to recur it doesn't mean that you (or I, or anyone else) shouldn't do whatever's possible to prevent, reduce, or stop them.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 28, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I for one welcome our new piscine overlords. All hail the shiny fantailed master!



no to gentrifishcation

guppies out


----------



## mwareing1 (Apr 28, 2015)

Greebo said:


> The same could be said about genocide; even if there's a tendancy for things to recur it doesn't mean that you (or I, or anyone else) shouldn't do whatever's possible to prevent, reduce, or stop them.


Stop them???? I understand what your saying about pushing family's out etc. That's crap. Brixton is 15 mins away on the train from central London. The population of London is growing at dramatic rates so people need to live somewhere. You can't stop people wanting  to live closer to there work and want to enjoy a change. Who ever 'them' are. You can't blame people for wanting a change. You should blame the goverment for not providing a better solution.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 28, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I don't think we should all need a fucking degree in economic or political history to post here. I don't need 'class analysis' to know when people are being shafted.



You don't need to have a degree to have a class analysis either.


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 28, 2015)

but you need to have a class to have a degree.


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 28, 2015)

unless you go the OU route FACT


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Right or wrong it's just history repeating its self.



It's not "repeating itself". Some things are similar, some are not.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 28, 2015)

mwareing1 said:


> Stop them???? <snip>


Kindly slow down and take the trouble to read my posts properly! 

Your skimming and apparent misreading (deliberate or otherwise) does you no credit, and makes you look less bright than you probably are.

"Them" referred to the recurring "things" ("phenomena and events", if you prefer longer words) which need to be prevented, reduced, or stopped.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 28, 2015)

For Reclaim connoisseurs there is another event on Friday May 1st - a street party in E1 outside the poor doors:


----------



## editor (Apr 28, 2015)

Reclaim Brixton has generated some real discussion about the housing crisis and gentrification across a wide range of media outlets, so I think it's been a fucking great success.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 28, 2015)

editor said:


> Reclaim Brixton has generated some real discussion about the housing crisis and gentrification across a wide range of media outlets, so I think it's been a fucking great success.


Front page of today's SLP too.


----------



## 299 old timer (Apr 28, 2015)

editor said:


> Reclaim Brixton has generated some real discussion about the housing crisis and gentrification across a wide range of media outlets, so I think it's been a fucking great success.



Which can only be a good thing, because when one stops to think about it, the 20/30% rise in house prices across London over the last couple of years (with all the subsequent increases in rent by greedy landlords looking to make a quick buck thus forcing tenants out) can not have happened purely by chance. I'm of the opinion that this has been deliberately steered by the Tories, with able assistance from their Liberal and Labour poodle chums, to make large short  term profits for those who could be in the position to make that killing. Absolutely no coincidence that that prick Boris "look a me, I'm so wacky" Johnson was giving planning permission left right and centre.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Which can only be a good thing, because when one stops to think about it, the 20/30% rise in house prices across London over the last couple of years (with all the subsequent increases in rent by greedy landlords looking to make a quick buck thus forcing tenants out) can not have happened purely by chance. I'm of the opinion that this has been deliberately steered by the Tories, with able assistance from their Liberal and Labour poodle chums, to make large short  term profits for those who could be in the position to make that killing. Absolutely no coincidence that that prick Boris "look a me, I'm so wacky" Johnson was giving planning permission left right and centre.



The "deliberate steering" is more a malign ignoring of the house price bubble and the effects it has on housing. The motivation to ignore is that the current stability of our economy is partly based on the price bubble - burst the bubble and see Osborne's "recovery" turn belly-up. Labour and the Lib-Dems go along with this because they face exactly the same predicament.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 28, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Which can only be a good thing, because when one stops to think about it, the 20/30% rise in house prices across London over the last couple of years (with all the subsequent increases in rent by greedy landlords looking to make a quick buck thus forcing tenants out) can not have happened purely by chance. I'm of the opinion that this has been deliberately steered by the Tories, with able assistance from their Liberal and Labour poodle chums, to make large short  term profits for those who could be in the position to make that killing. Absolutely no coincidence that that prick Boris "look a me, I'm so wacky" Johnson was giving planning permission left right and centre.



You make it sound a little bit like a conspiracy theory there, like they're doing it on the quiet. All the major parties have been quite open about pushing house price inflation AFAIK.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 28, 2015)

And today we're told that the housing crisis means the UK "is in breach of its own United Nations human rights commitment to provide people with adequate homes". A very well timed announcement - Brixton leads the way http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/28/uk-housing-crisis-in-breach-of-human-rights 

So how do we maintain our position at the centre of the debate?

I saw a C4 news guy at the Ritzy earlier- I hope he's doing a housing story.


----------



## editor (Apr 28, 2015)

This has be the least informed, most inaccurate and stupidest 'report' yet by that clueless twat Simon jenkins



> Some Brixton residents don’t like the gentrifiers. A few hundred of them smashed Foxtons’ windows at the weekend to prove it.
> 
> They also smashed a charity shop for good measure. They then gathered in Windrush Square off Brixton Road, perhaps unaware that it was named after an earlier group of newcomers
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...-urban-wheel-is-forever-turning-10210040.html


----------



## Greebo (Apr 28, 2015)

editor said:


> This has be the least informed, most inaccurate and stupidest 'report' yet by that clueless twat Simon jenkins


Jesus wept.  He should stick to what he's good at, although I can't quite remember what that is; is this person supposed to be a regular journalist?  Perhaps Brixton Bugle will allow him on their team, just to see how he gets on...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2015)

editor said:


> This has be the least informed, most inaccurate and stupidest 'report' yet by that clueless twat Simon jenkins


i dunno, he has a point about smashing the windows at tory and labour hqs tho in addition to, rather than instead of, foxtons.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 28, 2015)

Apart from the snobbery about modern social housing and his ignorance of the Barnardo's issue he makes lots of good points and describes what we're up against.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i dunno, he has a point about smashing the windows at real tory, yellow collaborating tory, and red tory hqs tho in addition to, rather than instead of, foxtons.


CFY


----------



## Greebo (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Apart from the snobbery about modern social housing and his ignorance of the Barnardo's issue he makes lots of good points and describes what we're up against.


Drowned out by his accusation of a few hundred people doing what only one twunt did.  He also got the order of events the wrong way around - the day began with marches converging at Windrush Square (and the Arches) - what followed was entirely peaceful and non violent apart from a few very minor events which have been blown out of all proportion.

I am not looking forward to explaining to my relatives why what they'll have seen in the media is nothing at all like what happened on the ground.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2015)

editor said:


> This has be the least informed, most inaccurate and stupidest 'report' yet by that clueless twat Simon jenkins



I just left a sarky comment. Fucking Tory knobshine.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 28, 2015)

Ah, so you're one of the people in denial about the violence. As for getting the order of events wrong...who the hell cares? He got the big picture right..."The protests in Brixton will achieve very little as long as there are so many vested interests at work in the capital." That's what we need to be thinking about.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Apr 28, 2015)

editor said:


> This has be the least informed, most inaccurate and stupidest 'report' yet by that clueless twat Simon jenkins



Blimey, that's bad. I thought he was supposed to have sound economics?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Apart from the snobbery about modern social housing and his ignorance of the Barnardo's issue he makes lots of good points and describes what we're up against.


standard journos


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Ah, so you're one of the people in denial about the violence. As for getting the order of events wrong...who the hell cares? He got the big picture right..."The protests in Brixton will achieve very little as long as there are so many vested interests at work in the capital." That's what we need to be thinking about.


it seems to me i have to repeat myself and say that the only violence i observed in brixton on the weekend came from the police.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 28, 2015)

I saw no violence. Smashing a window isn't violence. Storming a building isn't violence.

Tear gassing some protestors is violence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I saw no violence. Smashing a window isn't violence. Storming a building isn't violence.
> 
> Tear gassing some protestors is violence.


yeh and that's what i saw.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Ah, so you're one of the people in denial about the violence.



A couple of smashed windows and steaming the town hall gates isn't 'violence'.

The actions of bailiffs, councils, the government, and the police are though.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 28, 2015)

editor said:


> This has be the least informed, most inaccurate and stupidest 'report' yet by that clueless twat Simon jenkins



Social media will soon render him redundant. Then he may be finding himself smashing windows too.


----------



## editor (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Ah, so you're one of the people in denial about the violence. As for getting the order of events wrong...who the hell cares?


I care because he's describing an entirely inaccurate and misleading set of events that bears little relation to what happened. It's a bag of lies, basically, designed to misrepresent the the aims of the protest and the vast majority of protesters.

If that's what you look for in a paper, then I'm sure you'll have no problem finding a publication that suits you, mind.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Ah, so you're one of the people in denial about the violence. As for getting the order of events wrong...who the hell cares? <snip>


Do yourself a favour and shut up or fuck off now, for your own safety.  Because if you mouth off in real life, like you've done in this bit of urban, I really don't fancy your chances.  

The order of events matters because a lot of people were not there to make anything resembling trouble - all they wanted was to show solidarity and make themselves heard in a peaceful protest.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 28, 2015)

Ooh, threats now, I should report you to the polis.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Ooh, threats now, I should report you to the polis.


No threat - a very reasonable conclusion reached about the consequences of extremely provocative behaviour.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 28, 2015)

You're such an ignorant twonk.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> You're such an ignorant twonk.


and you're an effete and ineffectual handwringer with pretensions to erudition.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> You're such an ignorant twonk.


Try again; your next randomly inept attempt at typing might make sense.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Ooh, threats now, I should report you to the polis.



Hi ern.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 28, 2015)

oh good lord - I go away and you are all calling each other names. Like the house of commons or something!

Calm down people - it's only the internet.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> You're such an ignorant twonk.



Don't be a nob eh?. This stuff is really important to peoples lives - and it affects posters such as  Greebo especially. You might view how things reported by the media isn't too important, but when its so close to you it really is.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 28, 2015)

Ok so disagreements on the Simon Jenkins article. The event was misrepresented. hardly a first time for the press.

Greebo - step away from the computer - don't get angry - don't waste your precious energy on someone looking for a fight. He's one person - the march was seen in many different ways by many. It is always frustrating when you feel that something so close to your heart is written off as a load of old nonsense by some journalists. Take a breather - fight the real things that need to be fought and ignore those who don't have the heart to understand why you care so much about this issue. xxx


----------



## boohoo (Apr 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Don't be a fucking prick eh?. This stuff is really important to peoples lives - and it affects posters such as  Greebo especially. You might view how things reported by the media isn't too important, but when its so close to you it really is.



Nice language now please. Just tell him to stop being so heartless.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 28, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I saw no violence. Smashing a window isn't violence. Storming a building isn't violence.
> 
> Tear gassing some protestors is violence.


Actually they are both violence, and there was no tear gas, it was pepper spray, a reasonable response to a crowd which could have taken over a major police station. Anyway, I doubt anyone wants me to repeat myself, I said all this upthread. (I also called for more violence, not less...but what's the point of repeating earlier posts?)


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Don't be a nob eh?. This stuff is really important to peoples lives - and it affects posters such as  Greebo especially. You might view how things reported by the media isn't too important, but when its so close to you it really is.


What on earth makes you think this is unimportant to me? If you bother to read my posts they are heartfelt because the community I love (and have contributed a great deal to) is being destroyed. I'm not a homeowner, I live in fear of having to leave the best community in the country.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> What on earth makes you think this is unimportant to me? If you bother to read my posts they are heartfelt because the community I love (and have contributed a great deal to) is being destroyed. I'm not a homeowner, I live in fear of having to leave the best community in the country.



Maybe you need to look at finding the common ground with others here instead of fighting every point. It's the causing arguments that is giving people grief.  We will all have different opinions about the idea of Reclaim Brixton and how it has been reported because well, that's how people work.

The most important thing is to build on this united front to keep reminding the press and anyone else that will listen that this destruction of community is happening in Brixton and all over London.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> What on earth makes you think this is unimportant to me? If you bother to read my posts they are heartfelt because the community I love (and have contributed a great deal to) is being destroyed. I'm not a homeowner, I live in fear of having to leave the best community in the country.



Reading your posts, I truly don't know what you believe in and where you stand tbh.

But, anyway, I'll bow out.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Ooh, threats now, I should report you to the polis.



And just when I thought you couldn't get dumber...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Calm down people - it's only the internet.



When someone says something stupid in a personal conversation, and someone else takes offence, do you jump in "calm down, it's only a conversation"?


----------



## cuppa tee (Apr 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Reading your posts, I truly don't know what you believe in and where you stand tbh.


likewise, but tbf it's probably not a good idea to state openly you want violence on the streets in a public forum........


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Actually they are both violence, and there was no tear gas, it was pepper spray, a reasonable response to a crowd which could have taken over a major police station. Anyway, I doubt anyone wants me to repeat myself, I said all this upthread. (I also called for more violence, not less...but what's the point of repeating earlier posts?)



You're conflating damage of property with violence against a person. The two aren't in any way comparable.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 28, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> When someone says something stupid in a personal conversation, and someone else takes offence, do you jump in "calm down, it's only a conversation"?



This is the internet and people do become quite different to what they are in real life (as well as people trolling). The level of ranting, aggressive behaviour and name calling would probably not be received so well if we were all sitting in a pub.

I wouldn't expect to say calm down it's only a conversation.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 28, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> likewise, but tbf it's probably not a good idea to state openly you want violence on the streets in a public forum........


----------



## cuppa tee (Apr 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Er, I haven't?!


Apologies I  was referring to the poster you quoted


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 28, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Reading your posts, I truly don't know what you believe in and where you stand tbh.
> 
> But, anyway, I'll bow out.



It's a troll.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 28, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Front page of today's SLP too.


Yes it was quite a positive article, I thought - if you read the whole text.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 28, 2015)

Great article for a tabloid that could easily have boosted sales by sensationalising the 'violence'


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 28, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Yes it was quite a positive article, I thought - if you read the whole text.
> View attachment 70861



Jack is a good journalist.

On inside pages he covers the attempted eviction of long time resident in Clapham from house the Council want to auction off.

After seeing my photos of that in Brixton Buzz he rang me to ask about what happened.

He also rightly quotes Cyndi- who has done am amazing job- that the protest is about "Hypergentrification". Its now sections of the middle class who are also under threat.

The frustration is also at the political class. I notice the Council , when asked, keep repeating the line that the Council is" "working hard to harness" for residents opportunities from rapid changes to the area.

The feeling I get is that a lot of local residents and small business do not think a Labour Council sticking up for them. 

A Council Officer recently said to me that Network Rail investing here would bring jobs and housing and that the shopkeepers in the arches had had there places cheap for years. My understanding of that conversation is that the Council are still talking to NR. That the small business will be shafted for the greater good as the Council see it.

What people are up against can be shown by the reaction to Ed Milibands mild proposals to reform the property market:


> *Tory candidate said it's 'sort of policy you might expect from Soviet Russia'*
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ns-control-property-market.html#ixzz3Ye387PgI



Never underestimate the opposition of big bourgeoisie to limitation of property rights to make profit. Sorry to bring in Marx again but private property is the basis of modern Capitalism.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 28, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Maybe you need to look at finding the common ground with others here instead of fighting every point. It's the causing arguments that is giving people grief.  We will all have different opinions about the idea of Reclaim Brixton and how it has been reported because well, that's how people work.
> 
> The most important thing is to build on this united front to keep reminding the press and anyone else that will listen that this destruction of community is happening in Brixton and all over London.



The thing is, I've already found common ground IRL with the guy who did Foxton's window and the people who blocked the A23 to provoke the TSG and the people who tried to occupy the police station etc etc. I'll leave you guys to it and bow out of this thread - I thought I had some common ground with the likes of Gramsci who can see that rioting can have a positive effect, but perhaps not.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 28, 2015)

boohoo said:


> The most important thing is to build on this united front to keep reminding the press and anyone else that will listen that this destruction of community is happening in Brixton and all over London.



And so far Reclaim Brixton has been united front. Cyndi has played important role to keep disparate groups together. RB goes all the way from Black revolutionaries to small business owners.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The thing is, I've already found common ground IRL with the guy who did Foxton's window and the people who blocked the A23 to provoke the TSG and the people who tried to occupy the police station etc etc. I'll leave you guys to it and bow out of this thread - I thought I had some common ground with the likes of Gramsci who can see that rioting can have a positive effect, but perhaps not.



People do like shouting a lot in here. I would suggest that you stay  - just trying not to get into arguments! Everyone is entitled to air their opinion - we just (including myself) need to learn to not get into silly arguments that distract us from the important stuff.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 28, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> And so far Reclaim Brixton has been united front. Cyndi has played important role to keep disparate groups together. RB goes all the way from Black revolutionaries to small business owners.



We need to be reclaiming London!


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 28, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> The thing is, I've already found common ground IRL with the guy who did Foxton's window and the people who blocked the A23 to provoke the TSG and the people who tried to occupy the police station etc etc. I'll leave you guys to it and bow out of this thread - I thought I had some common ground with the likes of Gramsci who can see that rioting can have a positive effect, but perhaps not.



Boohoo has been giving good advice on this thread. 

I do not represent all Reclaim Brixton. Some were upset about the Foxtons as they felt it detracted from the positive things that happened that day.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 28, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Tory candidate said it's 'sort of policy you might expect from Soviet Russia'


As a mid-teen I was bowled over by the film Dr Zhivago.
That is the sort of housing policy I would expect from Soviet Russia.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 28, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Thanks. So many threads on urban make me feel that no ones allowed to join in unless they can quote Marx. Its a odd elitism.



I do instead of just handing out abuse. One need some kind of analysis. 

Marx is readable. More so than many Marxist who came after him. He has a sense of humour lacking in later Marxists. I would recommend reading Capital volume one. 

Marx was also into literature. Marx favourite writer was Balzac. If you want to know what he was about read "Cousin Odette"

A wonderful read. An attack on the "class of idlers" as Balzac called them. In the post Napoleonic age when everything came down to money.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 28, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I do not represent all Reclaim Brixton. Some were upset about the Foxtons as they felt it detracted from the positive things that happened that day.



I was a bit upset with the boring bastards and trots who sat around doing nothing in windrush square, I felt they distracted from the positive things that happened that day,


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 29, 2015)

smokedout said:


> I was a bit upset with the boring bastards and trots who sat around doing nothing in windrush square, I felt they distracted from the positive things that happened that day,





Trots always turn up to set up there stalls. Got to give it to them for perseverance.

It was sunny. Sitting around in the square was rather pleasant.

See my photos earlier on this thread where I did take a stroll through Brixton as well.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Affluence in most areas with a mixed demographic was and is generally a partial thing, with pockets of wealth, larger stretches of people getting by in various states of security and insecurity, and a significant minority just about getting by, or just about failing to. Now and 85 years ago have a lot in common, including exploitative landlords. _Plus ça change..._



Yes and even further back



> "In countries like Britain, people last lived lives as unequal as today, as measured by wage inequality, in 1854, when Charles Dickens was writing Hard Times," he states.


----------



## editor (Apr 29, 2015)

Mind you, I could happily watch Foxtons windows being kicked in every day because I definitely prefer the way it looks when it's all boarded up.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Apr 29, 2015)

Cllr Lib Peck, the Leader of Lambeth Council, has attempted to politicise Reclaim Brixton, overlooking the reasons as to why so many gathered in the first place 

BBuzz piece.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 29, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Cllr Lib Peck, the Leader of Lambeth Council, has attempted to politicise Reclaim Brixton,<snip>


FFS this is a safe Labour seat - why on earth is she and the rest of her party stooping to this new low?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Jack is a good journalist.



Agreed. it's always satisfying when you see someone doing "old skool" stuff like not shitting on their own doorstep (unlike Ms McKie of the _Brixton Bogle_).  



> On inside pages he covers the attempted eviction of long time resident in Clapham from house the Council want to auction off.
> 
> After seeing my photos of that in Brixton Buzz he rang me to ask about what happened.
> 
> He also rightly quotes Cyndi- who has done am amazing job- that the protest is about "Hypergentrification". Its now sections of the middle class who are also under threat.



Which makes the story somewhat easier to sell, *and* to tell.



> The frustration is also at the political class. I notice the Council , when asked, keep repeating the line that the Council is" "working hard to harness" for residents opportunities from rapid changes to the area.



I tend to switch off whenever a "statement" uses formulaic phrases that don't really involve any commitment to working for "the people". "working hard to harness.." just says to me that they won't take any responsibility if they *fail* to harness those opportunities. 



> The feeling I get is that a lot of local residents and small business do not think a Labour Council sticking up for them.



And IMO for good reason. When you have councillors actually declaring that their ward "has too much social housing", and others cheerleading the demographic change that gentrification brings, those attitudes aren't going to work unless the wider opinion (from council officers,for example) is conducive to it.



> A Council Officer recently said to me that Network Rail investing here would bring jobs and housing and that the shopkeepers in the arches had had there places cheap for years. My understanding of that conversation is that the Council are still talking to NR. That the small business will be shafted for the greater good as the Council see it.



The same sort of civic knob-end who discards the opinion of estate-dwellers because we supposedly live in "subsidised" housing. 



> What people are up against can be shown by the reaction to Ed Milibands mild proposals to reform the property market:
> 
> 
> Never underestimate the opposition of big bourgeoisie to limitation of property rights to make profit. Sorry to bring in Marx again but private property is the basis of modern Capitalism.



As is the drive to turn profit into ever-greater profit despite the tendency of the rate of profit to diminish over time (unless you happen upon a helpful "market" manipulation like the property price bubble).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2015)

editor said:


> Mind you, I could happily watch Foxtons windows being kicked in every day because I definitely prefer the way it looks when it's all boarded up.



Plus, the boards are so infinitely-decorateable.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Cllr Lib Peck, the Leader of Lambeth Council, has attempted to politicise Reclaim Brixton, overlooking the reasons as to why so many gathered in the first place
> 
> BBuzz piece.



Just left a sarky comment on Peck's wordpress blog. I hope it won't be moderated out of existence!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2015)

Greebo said:


> FFS this is a safe Labour seat - why on earth is she and the rest of her party stooping to this new low?



They feel threatened. After all, according to Streatham CLP's analysis, the Greens are more of a threat to Labour's majorities than the Conservative and Lib-Dem options. Labour will still win the seats, I've no doubt, but a smaller majority in two of the constituencies (Hoey's is insulated somewhat because she's not part of "the machine") will send a message to ordinary voters that Lambeth Labour isn't unassailable in the next set of local elections, and that they can't use the tactics they've always deployed against the Tories and Lib-Dems - their record in power in Lambeth. The Greens are a clean slate, so Labour are constructing their smears now, on the principle that if you sling enough mud, some will stick.


----------



## Up the junction (Apr 29, 2015)

Greebo said:


> FFS this is a safe Labour seat - why on earth is she and the rest of her party stooping to this new low?


At the risk of appearing complacent?


----------



## Greebo (Apr 29, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> At the risk of appearing *arrogant?*


Corrected for you.


----------



## Up the junction (Apr 29, 2015)

I guess you don't get to be a council leader unless you play the game well.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 29, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I guess you don't get to be a council leader unless you play the game well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I guess you don't get to be a council leader unless you play the game well.


the winner takes it all


----------



## Tricky Skills (Apr 29, 2015)

But the loser has to fall.

Eventually


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 29, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> But the loser has to fall.
> 
> Eventually


Steve Reed, Croydon MP? sorry, can you explain please.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2015)

smokedout said:


> I was a bit upset with the boring bastards and trots who sat around doing nothing in windrush square, I felt they distracted from the positive things that happened that day,



As is always the case.


----------



## ibilly99 (Apr 29, 2015)

Nye Bevan's words resonate forcefully down the decades.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 29, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Cllr Lib Peck, the Leader of Lambeth Council, has attempted to politicise Reclaim Brixton, overlooking the reasons as to why so many gathered in the first place
> 
> BBuzz piece.



Good piece.

I add a few more comments.

Interesting that Cllr Peck decided to write about Reclaim Brixton rather than ignore it.



> The wider issue of gentrification is a much more complicated debate. I don’t speak to many people who want to return Brixton back to where it was ten years ago – a place people without jobs, a place with a reputation for crime, a place that didn’t feel safe. And so for many in the community the word “reclaim” felt inappropriate – it didn’t recognise the positive change that has taken place, and instead tried to put up boundaries in a place whose very strength has always been inclusivity and diversity



Ten years ago? I do not agree it felt unsafe. Nor was it a place without jobs. Its not a description that I would give to Brixton ten years ago.

So after saying it was a community spirited event she sticks the knife in saying Reclaim Brixton is backward looking and trying to put up boundaries. Far from putting up boundaries it was celebrating the diversity that is under threat from "hypergentrification". She does not explain what she means by putting up boundaries.

BTW the Reclaim Brixton position is "Say Yes to Improvement and no to Gentrification".

I do not understand why she goes on at length about the Greens. They played a small role in Reclaim Brixton. I have nothing against the Greens. Why she says they started using the term social cleansing I do not know. It was not started by them.

The main political groups involved were London Black Revolutionaries and Left Unity. Who she does not refer to.

Also non aligned group like Lambeth Housing Activists and Unite Community. Whose members did a lot of volunteering for the event.  A LHA leading light did a lot organise and keep the different political activists involved from falling out.

Cllr Peck ignores the involvement of Unite Community and LHA. They are both local grass roots organisations who , one would of thought, the local Labour party would support.

She also ignores the fact that Cressingham Gardens residents organised there own march to Windrush sq in the morning. Not at instigation by Green party. It CG residents who are opposing the Council plans.

And every time a Labour Cllr sings the praises of the Somerleyton Road scheme all I think of is my community broken up by Council and the Mansions left empty.

An ex Coop member , who has now left London, emailed me to say that she was glad Reclaim Brixton happened. She was heartened that Brixton community still has some fighting spirit left.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2015)

> The wider issue of gentrification is a much more complicated debate. I don’t speak to many people who want to return Brixton back to where it was ten years ago – a place people without jobs, a place with a reputation for crime, a place that didn’t feel safe. And so for many in the community the word “reclaim” felt inappropriate – it didn’t recognise the positive change that has taken place, and instead tried to put up boundaries in a place whose very strength has always been inclusivity and diversity


altho i don't hail from brixton or lambeth i do recall that even ten years ago people in brixton had jobs.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> But the loser has to fall.
> 
> Eventually


every loser whines.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 29, 2015)

ibilly99 said:


> Nye Bevan's words resonate forcefully down the decades.



love the guy with the shades, and the guys having a smoke behind him


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Steve Reed, Croydon MP? sorry, can you explain please.



Former "Leader" of Lambeth Council, failed contender for the Streatham seat and all-round one-off-the-wrist merchant.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Good piece.
> 
> I add a few more comments.
> 
> ...



Note how much (2/3rds) of her supposed point is about perception - how some people *felt* unsafe, and how Brixton had a *reputation* for crime - rather than fact. I remember back then somewhat differently - as the era when Donal MacIntyre *couldn't* get mugged in Brixton! 



> So after saying it was a community spirited event she sticks the knife in saying Reclaim Brixton is backward looking and trying to put up boundaries. Far from putting up boundaries it was celebrating the diversity that is under threat from "hypergentrification". She does not explain what she means by putting up boundaries.



She's accusing the protesters of being exclusionary snobs, basically.



> BTW the Reclaim Brixton position is "Say Yes to Improvement and no to Gentrification".
> 
> I do not understand why she goes on at length about the Greens. They played a small role in Reclaim Brixton. I have nothing against the Greens. Why she says they started using the term social cleansing I do not know. It was not started by them.



There's a reason, you can be sure. back in March, Streatham CLP had an election strategy meeting. I have in my possession a recording of said meeting. A chap who identifies himself as "a number-cruncher" is explicit that the major threat to Labour hegemony in the three constituencies that cover Brixton is the Green Party, not the Tories or Lib-Dems, who are still tainted. They know that the Greens can't win any of the constituencies, but they're fully-aware that the Greens can (and likely will) cut their majorities substantially, and that this may feed into Labour ward losses at a later date. It's mud-slinging by Labour in the knowledge that some of it, however fatuous, will stick.  



> The main political groups involved were London Black Revolutionaries and Left Unity. Who she does not refer to.
> 
> Also non aligned group like Lambeth Housing Activists and Unite Community. Whose members did a lot of volunteering for the event.  A LHA leading light did a lot organise and keep the different political activists involved from falling out.
> 
> ...



While Peck is obviously disheartened that the community has.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> the era when Donal MacIntyre *couldn't* get mugged in Brixton!


what a sad indictment on brixton that someone actually trying to get mugged in 2002 couldn't find someone to oblige.


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## Greebo (Apr 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> <snip> Cllr Peck ignores the involvement of Unite Community and LHA. They are both local grass roots organisations who , one would of thought, the local Labour party would support.
> 
> She also ignores the fact that Cressingham Gardens residents organised there own march to Windrush sq in the morning. Not at instigation by Green party. It CG residents who are opposing the Council plans. <snip>


I think and (_pace _Garrison Keillor) I could be all wrong about this, Labour representatives such as Lib Peck think that it's okay to tie Save Cressingham Gardens with the Green party because of a few stupid coincidences:
1) Green ink on our T shirts.

2)Using the phrase "green retrofit" (because it's far more concise than "improving energy efficiency in the most ecofriendly way possible, reduce or avoid carbon tax, and also access the grants which could make such measures significantly reduce the cost of repair and refurbishment").

3) The fact that some Green party members have been seen in public wearing our T shirts.

Paranoia is such an ugly thing.  TUSC joined us in the march down, but they didn't organise our bit of the march either.  AFAIK some of the other tenants did.  Shocking I know, self-organising plebs.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> what a sad indictment on brixton that someone actually trying to get mugged in 2002 couldn't find someone to oblige.



Hilarious bit of telly, though. By the end of the prog you ended up wondering just how much his producer must have hated him, to put out something that made him look such a twat that by the end he had to literally wander around with an open bag, showing his laptop and phone to all and sundry for hours on end before someone skanked him!


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## Gramsci (Apr 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's a reason, you can be sure. back in March, Streatham CLP had an election strategy meeting. I have in my possession a recording of said meeting. A chap who identifies himself as "a number-cruncher" is explicit that the major threat to Labour hegemony in the three constituencies that cover Brixton is the Green Party, not the Tories or Lib-Dems, who are still tainted. They know that the Greens can't win any of the constituencies, but they're fully-aware that the Greens can (and likely will) cut their majorities substantially, and that this may feed into Labour ward losses at a later date. It's mud-slinging by Labour in the knowledge that some of it, however fatuous, will stick.
> 
> .



Instead of number crunching- a very New Labour pastime- I would have thought they might look at why the Greens are getting support. 

The Greens ( and SNP) say all the right things about inequality etc. Things that the Labour party no longer wants to talk about.


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## Up the junction (Apr 30, 2015)

It was exactly the same in the local elections in Lambeth last year. In the end Labour swept all before it but the Greens were always considered the threat - and they were; in a number of wards Labour returned all three councillors but the Greens were the next three:

http://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/mgElectionElectionAreaResults.aspx?Page=all&EID=25


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## boohoo (Apr 30, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Good piece.
> 
> Ten years ago? I do not agree it felt unsafe. Nor was it a place without jobs. Its not a description that I would give to Brixton ten years ago.



Ten years ago - Brixton was looking much better than thirty years ago. Even twenty years ago was a huge improvement on thirty years ago and was feeling safer.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Instead of number crunching- a very New Labour pastime- I would have thought they might look at why the Greens are getting support.
> 
> The Greens ( and SNP) say all the right things about inequality etc. Things that the Labour party no longer wants to talk about.



Well quite!
What they're also doing, which our Labour councillors seem to have withdrawn from in a big way over the last ten years (unless combined with a photo-op or other publicity opportunity), is basic grassroots work in the community. Labour's problem is right there, combined with the lack of activists (Streatham CLP has about a quarter of the membership it had when I left the party 20 years ago) willing to assist.


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## 299 old timer (Apr 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well quite!
> What they're also doing, which our Labour councillors seem to have withdrawn from in a big way over the last ten years (unless combined with a photo-op or other publicity opportunity), is basic grassroots work in the community. Labour's problem is right there, combined with the lack of activists (Streatham CLP has about a quarter of the membership it had when I left the party 20 years ago) willing to assist.



That's complacency. Given the last set of results in the recent local elections when they took complete control they probably think they don't have to bother.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well quite!
> What they're also doing, which our Labour councillors seem to have withdrawn from in a big way over the last ten years (unless combined with a photo-op or other publicity opportunity), is basic grassroots work in the community. Labour's problem is right there, combined with the lack of activists (Streatham CLP has about a quarter of the membership it had when I left the party 20 years ago) willing to assist.


surprised you left after the poll tax.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> That's complacency. Given the last set of results in the recent local elections when they took complete control they probably think they don't have to bother.



Very foolish position to take, though. As it is, Lambeth Labour's estate "regeneration" programme is going to mean them losing votes in those wards for at least the next 5 years, and "Reclaim Brixton" has shown us that there's wider discontent with the way the Labour administration has "managed" the borough.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> surprised you left after the poll tax.



Grin and bear it. Blair's "clause 4 moment" caused me to stop doing so.


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## Gramsci (Apr 30, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Ten years ago - Brixton was looking much better than thirty years ago. Even twenty years ago was a huge improvement on thirty years ago and was feeling safer.



I never felt unsafe in Brixton.

It was outside factors that affected Brixton. Such as Thatchers government causing mass unemployment.

IMO Brixton always worked. People got on with their lives. The riots were caused by police action.

I remember after the first riot there was a sense that crossed all age groups that Brixton had defeated a racist Met. I remember seeing a senior Tory politician do a walkabout in  Brixton after the riot and getting heckled in the street by middle aged Afro Caribbean ladies. What I am saying is that it was not doom and gloom.

I really object to the view that Brixton was this crime ridden area that was terrible to live in back then. It was not perfect but neither was it a terrible place to be.


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## boohoo (Apr 30, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I never felt unsafe in Brixton.
> 
> It was outside factors that affected Brixton. Such as Thatchers government causing mass unemployment.
> 
> ...



I don't think it was terrible  but I do remember a lot of crap things happening outside our house. I was a child and then a teen growing up in Brixton next to one of the rough estates. There was quite a lot of car crashes outside the house which didn't help the number of upset people I witness however there was other stuff that happened. My mum got mugged about four times around there - once outside the house. It taught me to dress down, look scruffy and cover up.

It was about ten years ago I started feeling safe walking around the streets anywhere. Maybe it's different because I'm female.


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## BigMoaner (May 1, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I never felt unsafe in Brixton.
> 
> It was outside factors that affected Brixton. Such as Thatchers government causing mass unemployment.
> 
> ...


hmmm i can remember a feeling a little unnerved being offered crack by about 10 different dealers on cold harbour lane every time i walked down it. you think old people/young people feel safe around open drug markets?


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## BigMoaner (May 1, 2015)

can also remember a HELL of a lot of people getting shot in brixton in yardie shit in late 90s early 00s.


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## BigMoaner (May 1, 2015)

,


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## BigMoaner (May 1, 2015)

what did happen to all that yardie shooting stuff?


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## boohoo (May 1, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> what did happen to all that yardie shooting stuff?



Maybe it's still there just not getting as much coverage. The book Yardie was out in the 90s and that probably brought that group to people's attention. No-one talks much about the Triads.


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## BigMoaner (May 1, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Maybe it's still there just not getting as much coverage. The book Yardie was out in the 90s and that probably brought that group to people's attention. No-one talks much about the Triads.


but there was a lot of street shootings back then, no? i witnessed a gun being waved out of car and pointed at one of hte cafes on CHL


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## boohoo (May 1, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> but there was a lot of street shootings back then, no? i witnessed a gun being waved out of car and pointed at one of hte cafes on CHL



I'm not sure. I don't know how much street crime went up or down. I think Stockwell/ Brixton was mugger mile at that point.


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## co-op (May 1, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> hmmm i can remember a feeling a little unnerved being offered crack by about 10 different dealers on cold harbour lane every time i walked down it. you think old people/young people feel safe around open drug markets?



Crack and coke came in mid 90s at the earliest (in terms of street dealing). Before then there was plenty of weed for sale but it never felt heavy to me. When crack came I thought it felt more nervous and edgy on the streets, especially all those ones like Saltoun Rd etc where street dealers kind of backed in off from Railton Rd where the weed had always been pretty openly sold but without agg that I remember.


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## co-op (May 1, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> but there was a lot of street shootings back then, no? i witnessed a gun being waved out of car and pointed at one of hte cafes on CHL



There was gun stuff everywhere in the UK big cities for a while, Brixton seemed like a lot less than North London or the outer south - Norwood, Thornton Heath Tulse Hill I thought. Got no figures to back that up mind you...


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## HASL (May 4, 2015)

reubeniz said:


> With regards to the bike sound system. Who are they and can we help.
> 
> Nice little rig they had. Fairly clear sound with a fair bit of a punch, bass wise.  They were well up for random people chatting over the mic and even sticking their own phones to play tunes ( cant think of many rigs that open lol )
> 
> I for 1 would certainly contribute to see them back on the road and to celebrate to completion of this i may post some photos of flying hats


 

Hey we are currently looking after the sound system and it would be really great if people wanted to contribute to its repair! We have finally got it back off the police and on first inspection the frame is broken, the battery's dead and now unuseable and the wiring has all been ripped out.

We would like to raise £100-200 to buy replacement parts for it, with most of this going on a good battery that doesn't need replacing when it is left with no charge for a while. If you want to contribute anything for it then email HASLemail@gmail.com and we will send you the bank details.

Thanks for the help and hopefully pedals will be back up and smashing the system soon!


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## FridgeMagnet (May 4, 2015)

I accidentally deleted the above post this afternoon instead of approving it  so I have just undeleted it and am bumping the thread.


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## David Clapson (May 5, 2015)

More coverage of Reclaim Brixton on C4 News tonite - fascinating piece putting the protest in the context of the election http://www.channel4.com/news/stanley-greene-uk-election-war-photographer   The Brixton images start at 7 mins 30 secs


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## Not a Vet (May 6, 2015)

Just as a footnote to the disorder. All the people arrested were not from Brixton.


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## Rushy (May 6, 2015)

Not a Vet said:


> Just as a footnote to the disorder. All the people arrested were not from Brixton.


Stirrer.


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## editor (May 6, 2015)

I hope this becomes a regular event. It was an important protest.


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## peterkro (May 6, 2015)

co-op said:


> Crack and coke came in mid 90s at the earliest (in terms of street dealing). Before then there was plenty of weed for sale but it never felt heavy to me. When crack came I thought it felt more nervous and edgy on the streets, especially all those ones like Saltoun Rd etc where street dealers kind of backed in off from Railton Rd where the weed had always been pretty openly sold but without agg that I remember.


Crack was being dealt on the street well before that.The frontline was still about (in somewhat reduced form) and I remember scoring before the Dexter Playground was extended and that was done in 1986.It certainly wasn't as pervasive as it later became but it was happening.


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## co-op (May 6, 2015)

peterkro said:


> Crack was being dealt on the street well before that.The frontline was still about (in somewhat reduced form) and I remember scoring before the Dexter Playground was extended and that was done in 1986.It certainly wasn't as pervasive as it later became but it was happening.





My dates are a bit hazy, possibly not unrelated to frontline product consumption.


----------



## editor (May 6, 2015)

Please try and keep the evening of Thursday 11th June free. That is all for now.


----------



## Winot (May 8, 2015)

Scene and Heard from David Ziggy Greene:


----------



## editor (May 8, 2015)

Winot said:


> Scene and Heard from David Ziggy Greene:
> 
> View attachment 71281


Have you got a source for that as it's just a bit too small to read all the text?


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## Winot (May 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Have you got a source for that as it's just a bit too small to read all the text?



Here you go:

http://samu.co.uk


----------



## David Clapson (May 11, 2015)

The Mirror has finally covered it.  The delay is very puzzling. Maybe they now think it's news because of the post-election barny outside Downing Street? Prepare to be enraged: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/watch-moment-mob-trying-break-5589605


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## Mr Retro (May 11, 2015)

What was the point behind storming the police station? It was never going to end well for the protestors was it?


----------



## editor (May 11, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> What was the point behind storming the police station? It was never going to end well for the protestors was it?


Anger and frustration, probably.


----------



## leanderman (May 11, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> What was the point behind storming the police station? It was never going to end well for the protestors was it?



None of those arrested came from Brixton, or even London.


----------



## editor (May 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> None of those arrested came from Brixton, or even London.


Some of the people pictured in the video certainly did though.


----------



## leanderman (May 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Some of the people pictured in the video certainly did though.



The one trying to ram open the shutter with his skateboard is an enduring image.


----------



## Mr Retro (May 11, 2015)

I'm trying to think if I've seen something more stupid this year.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm trying to think if I've seen something more stupid this year.



The General Election?


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (May 15, 2015)

Reclaim Brixton sends a powerful message to Lambeth Council.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2015)

Another interesting video:


----------



## BigMoaner (May 16, 2015)

maybe kick labour out of the council and get the greens in? what a shower of cunts lambeth council sound.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The one trying to ram open the shutter with his skateboard is an enduring image.


surely endearing image


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

Without meaning to bang on about this - reclaim Brixton for whom and why?

I deal with a lot of people from Lambeth at my pro bono centre who are being screwed over by the council, employers, housing etc... but you know what, in four years of advising, I have never come across a single person who has sat down opposite me and asked for legal advice on "reclaiming" Brixton or any other area for that matter from newcomers.

The idea that a neighbourhood should be preserved for a specific set of people is a bit odd when you think about it...


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

Of course, maybe some smartarse is going to pipe up about how my punters should be "educated" in the "class struggle"...


----------



## newbie (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Without meaning to bang on about this - reclaim Brixton for whom and why?
> 
> I deal with a lot of people from Lambeth at my pro bono centre who are being screwed over by the council, employers, housing etc... but you know what, in four years of advising, I have never come across a single person who has sat down opposite me and asked for legal advice on "reclaiming" Brixton or any other area for that matter from newcomers.
> 
> The idea that a neighbourhood should be preserved for a specific set of people is a bit odd when you think about it...


it's not at all odd to attempt to protect the area *from* those who use the huge sums of money at their disposal to drive out the people who call it home.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Without meaning to bang on about this - reclaim Brixton for whom and why?
> 
> I deal with a lot of people from Lambeth at my pro bono centre who are being screwed over by the council, employers, housing etc... but you know what, in four years of advising, I have never come across a single person who has sat down opposite me and asked for legal advice on "reclaiming" Brixton or any other area for that matter from newcomers.
> 
> The idea that a neighbourhood should be preserved for a specific set of people is a bit odd when you think about it...


no one's asked you because they know you'd proffer nothing useful


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Of course, maybe some smartarse is going to pipe up about how my punters should be "educated" in the "class struggle"...


if they did ask you what would you say in your considered legal advice? how much pro bono work do you do for residents in the borough in which you live?


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> no one's asked you because they know you'd proffer nothing useful



And your utility, sir?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Of course, maybe some smartarse is going to pipe up about how my punters should be "educated" in the "class struggle"...



Nope, looks like just you...


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Nope, looks like just you...



So my punters are keeping schtum about their real issues surrounding the invasion of cheese and wine out of politeness...?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> So my punters are keeping schtum about their real issues surrounding the invasion of cheese and wine out of politeness...?



I dunno, I wasn't referring to them.


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> if they did ask you what would you say in your considered legal advice? how much pro bono work do you do for residents in the borough in which you live?



Hackney?

None.

That's because it's a massive effort to advise from usually 6.30-10.30 every Thursday evening in Lambeth and then do a significant amount of work in the rest of my free time on pertinent cases while also holding down a city law job.  Not easy.


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## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

Aren't there better threads to trawl your holiness on?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> And your utility, sir?


i serve people from all boroughs with a smile


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Aren't their better threads to trawl your holiness on?



Do I do a lot more than you?


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

euh

edit: oh you have.


----------



## superfly101 (May 16, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> euh
> 
> edit: oh you have.



Go fuck yourself you self centred fucking cunt!

Having been in the lovely position to have to rely on the Brixton Advice Centre from 2010 to fight my corner when nobody else would or could at least they were paid until 2012 for their work (badly but ....)

Now since 2012 the whole adivce service (thanks to it's removal from legal aid funding) is dependent on good natured people investing their own time or very young people earning their legal spurs giving community advice as part of their law degrees.

Diamond isn't wearing some jaunty hat and eating cheese. They're actually giving their quite valuable time to keep the most vulnerable in you society from being fucked over by you local Labour Council which has form!

It's often these sort of people who protect you!


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Go fuck yourself you self centred fucking cunt!
> 
> Having been in the lovely position to have to rely on the Brixton Advice Centre from 2010 to fight my corner when nobody else would or could at least they were paid until 2012 for their work (badly but ....)
> 
> ...


Not me.


----------



## superfly101 (May 16, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Not me.



If I'm wrong in attributing things I to a personal view apologise!

Reading back here I probably am ;=p sorry!

But what's happened to advice since 2012 in Brixton  we need more Diamonds!


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Without meaning to bang on about this - reclaim Brixton for whom and why?
> 
> I deal with a lot of people from Lambeth at my pro bono centre who are being screwed over by the council, employers, housing etc...



Shouldn't you have posted the bit about you working pro bono in capitals, just in case anyone misses your ego-stroking?



> ...but you know what, in four years of advising, I have never come across a single person who has sat down opposite me and asked for legal advice on "reclaiming" Brixton or any other area for that matter from newcomers.



Why *would* they ask you? To them all you are is some mouthpiece who does legal stuff and lives elsewhere. For all they care, you're the sort of person who fantasises about moving to "vibrant Brixton".



> The idea that a neighbourhood should be preserved for a specific set of people is a bit odd when you think about it...



Well, it's fortunate that *that* isn't what "Reclaim Brixton" is about then, isn't it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Go fuck yourself you self centred fucking cunt!
> 
> Having been in the lovely position to have to rely on the Brixton Advice Centre from 2010 to fight my corner when nobody else would or could at least they were paid until 2012 for their work (badly but ....)
> 
> ...



Of all the free legal advice I've had in the last 20 years, I've been fortunate in that those that gave me free advice never boasted about doing so on the internet.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> If I'm wrong in attributing things I to a personal view apologise!
> 
> Reading back here I probably am ;=p sorry!
> 
> But what's happened to advice since 2012 in Brixton  we need more Diamonds!



No, what we *really* need is better funding, not goodwill.


----------



## SpamMisery (May 16, 2015)

What does living in a different borough have to do with doing pro bono work?!!


----------



## Up the junction (May 16, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Go fuck yourself you self centred fucking cunt!





butchersapron said:


> Not me.


QED


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> What does living in a different borough have to do with doing pro bono work?!!


he's yet to demonstrate he does one thing for the denizens of hackney which makes him an asset to the borough.


----------



## superfly101 (May 16, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, what we *really* need is better funding, not goodwill.


FFS or course we do!!!!

But funded services now do not exist!!!!

Since funded services no longer exits but some nice people are still carrying on..... do we go.... or do we go.......


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> QED


BINGO!


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

The main thing is that the virtue of the man is recognised.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> The main thing is that the virtue of the man is recognised.


there is no virtue in the man


----------



## superfly101 (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> he's yet to demonstrate he does one thing for the denizens of hackney which makes him an asset to the borough.



I live in Brixton have done  for a fair while my last housing advice who has kept me here for 12 months was from a Greek girl working for the Single Homelessness Project in Vaxhall. Before that it was from a Canadian girl giving advice at the BAC.

The BAC girl was trainee Irwin Mitchell - Irwin Mitchell are one of the few legal firms still pursuing Judicial Review etc when Councils go bad!

So PM how many people of Brixton have you helped to stop being homeless? Does a homeless or soon to be person  give a fuck if that person helping them lives in Brixton or Billaricky?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> I live in Brixton have done  for a fair while my last housing advice who has kept me here for 12 months was from a Greek girl working for the Single Homelessness Project in Vaxhall. Before that it was from a Canadian girl giving advice at the BAC.
> 
> The BAC girl was trainee Irwin Mitchell - Irwin Mitchell are one of the few legal firms still pursuing Judicial Review etc when Councils go bad!
> 
> So PM how many people of Brixton have you helped to stop being homeless? Does a homeless or soon to be person  give a fuck if that person helping them lives in Brixton or Billaricky?


i can't say i've ever kept count


----------



## Limerick Red (May 16, 2015)

Why weren't Pearse and Nessan invited to speak?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

Limerick Red said:


> Why weren't Pearse and Nessan invited to speak?


i wonder whether they saw enough of brixton last time they visited


----------



## Limerick Red (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder whether they saw enough of brixton last time they visited


Reclaiming Brixton champions 1991


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Aren't their better threads to trawl your holiness on?



I work hard.

Much of that is in aid of those who cannot afford it - in the


ViolentPanda said:


> Shouldn't you have posted the bit about you working pro bono in capitals, just in case anyone misses your ego-stroking?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jog on.

I work pro bono.

You may not like it; it may not wash so easily with your prejudices but quite frankly you can get gone.


----------



## Blagsta (May 16, 2015)

Bono is a cunt


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

This thread is the type of stuff  that really turns my stomach btw.

Lots of folk masturbating each other about their favorite High Street and then acting all high and mighty and doing, nothing.

It's not about gentrification. It's about people. Maybe youse will wake up some day and see that.


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

Blagsta said:


> Bono is a cunt


Working for him? Fucking hell.


----------



## Limerick Red (May 16, 2015)

Get gone! Like Pearse and Nessan


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> This thread is the type of stuff  that really turns my stomach btw.
> 
> Lots of folk masturbating each other about their favorite High Street and then acting all high and mighty and doing, nothing.
> 
> It's not about gentrification. It's about people. Maybe youse will wake up some day and see that.


bit like you & kingsland road


----------



## killer b (May 16, 2015)

Walter Mittys boasting about their world saving antics turn my stomach. It takes allsorts.


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> This thread is the type of stuff  that really turns my stomach btw.
> 
> Lots of folk masturbating each other about their favorite High Street and then acting all high and mighty and doing, nothing.
> 
> It's not about gentrification. It's about people. Maybe youse will wake up some day and see that.


Bloat that CV. _Helper_.


----------



## Limerick Red (May 16, 2015)

killer b said:


> It takes allsorts.


Man of the people!!!


----------



## killer b (May 16, 2015)

hah! that's him isn't it? nailed.


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Bloat that CV. _Helper_.



Would you rather that I did not do my pro bono clinic?


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

Or maybe you think it is merely incidental.  Something I do not commit to...


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Would you rather that I did not do my pro bono clinic?


You do what work?


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

bono cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Would you rather that I did not do my pro bono clinic?


i'd rather you didn't whine on about it


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> You do what work?



I have already set that out but presumably you are too lazy to bother to read.

In the last few weeks I have advised on employment, housing, intestate issues and divorce (with nasty dom violence aspects).


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd rather you didn't whine on about it



Pathetic


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> bono cunt.



So eloquent!


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> So eloquent!


You've decided to do this on here - everywhere. Crack on. I had you right 10 years ago. Didn't i?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Pathetic


after the eponymous scandal john profumo spent most of the redt of his life quietly doing charity work in whitechapel. he didn't do what you do and brag about it. you're worse than a disgraced tory.


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

I wonder what use diamond and his pro bono sell is?

_Dangerous_.


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

Looking to make work/bono i get it.


----------



## Diamond (May 16, 2015)

Truly you are demonstrating your idiocy chaps.

Writ large.


----------



## Limerick Red (May 16, 2015)




----------



## superfly101 (May 16, 2015)

Without people giving their free time pro-bono do you think would ever happen?

http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2015/05/vulnerability-a-fresh-start/

This has been  going on for years! Now that people have no access to funded legal help do you think it's more or less likely to happen?


----------



## Diamond (May 17, 2015)

The interesting point for us is that the pressure seems to be coming from the "up" rather than being pushed "down".

There is a lot of chat about legal aid but, to be frank, most punters would never have qualified under the previous regime anyway.


----------



## Diamond (May 17, 2015)

But those eejits who want to discourage me from giving up my free time to help people in Lambeth who need legal aid pro bono - you people can get fucked.


----------



## Diamond (May 17, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of all the free legal advice I've had in the last 20 years, I've been fortunate in that those that gave me free advice never boasted about doing so on the internet.



I have not boasted about my pro bono clinic at all.  To suggest otherwise is mealy-mouthed nonsense.

I could go into details but that would raise issues around client-advisor confidence as you no doubt are aware.


----------



## Diamond (May 17, 2015)

Anyways, what we can take away from this is that (i) there are some people who don't like getting old, (ii) they and their associates confuse themselves to the extent that this becomes political and (iii) it's the beards and cheese that fucked it.


----------



## killer b (May 17, 2015)

I'm not sure whether it would be worse for diamond to use a real or imagined case of domestic violence to try and win an argument on the internet.


----------



## butchersapron (May 17, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Anyways, what we can take away from this is that (i) there are some people who don't like getting old, (ii) they and their associates confuse themselves to the extent that this becomes political and (iii) it's the beards and cheese that fucked it.


uh huh


Pro bono, every single word  you posted.

I would kill myself to find CV bloating


----------



## butchersapron (May 17, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Anyways, what we can take away from this is that (i) there are some people who don't like getting old, (ii) they and their associates confuse themselves to the extent that this becomes political and (iii) it's the beards and cheese that fucked it.[/QUOTE} look at you. Why


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 17, 2015)

Diamond said:


> This thread is the type of stuff  that really turns my stomach btw.
> 
> Lots of folk masturbating each other about their favorite High Street and then acting all high and mighty and doing, nothing.
> 
> It's not about gentrification. It's about people. Maybe youse will wake up some day and see that.



Lots of people here are doing something. We just don't have a flag as big as yours.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 17, 2015)

Calling people 'punters' is not helping them either. It's what the gambling and prostitution business use as a term for those less esteemed than the less esteemed.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2015)

Diamond said:


> This thread is the type of stuff  that really turns my stomach btw.
> 
> Lots of folk masturbating each other about their favorite High Street and then acting all high and mighty and doing, nothing.
> 
> It's not about gentrification. It's about people. Maybe youse will wake up some day and see that.


d'you not recall your froth about the mosque on kingsland road where you claimed to be concerned about equality issues but although happy to post about it here you refused - despite your vaunted legal knowledge - to raise it with anyone including the mosque or local authority. you've a record of wanking on about high streets but refusing to do anything about it.


----------



## butchersapron (May 17, 2015)

Do it through me or don't exist.


----------



## pesh (May 17, 2015)

Diamond said:


> I have not boasted about my pro bono clinic at all.


you hardly do anything else.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 17, 2015)




----------



## editor (May 17, 2015)

Any chance of this getting back on topic about the Reclaim Brixton movement? it's kind of important to some people.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> FFS or course we do!!!!
> 
> But funded services now do not exist!!!!
> 
> Since funded services no longer exits but some nice people are still carrying on..... do we go.... or do we go.......



We do what we can, and that includes harassing the council. For example, they really don't like being constantly reminded that the "cabinet allowances" (not even their normal "expenses" allowances,mind!) for councillors that they collect, would have kept full-time advice workers at three or four different locations, and still had enough left over to fund court actions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2015)

Diamond said:


> I work hard.
> 
> Much of that is in aid of those who cannot afford it - in the
> 
> ...



Thing is, plenty of people work _pro bono_. Most don't mention it every chance they get. That's nothing to do with my disliking what you post, or being "prejudiced", it's about the fact that you throw your "good works" and your education in peoples' faces. Most of us grew out of that by our early 20s, and just get on with doing what we can.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2015)

Diamond said:


> This thread is the type of stuff  that really turns my stomach btw.
> 
> Lots of folk masturbating each other about their favorite High Street and then acting all high and mighty and doing, nothing.



The "doing nothing" is an assumption on your part. Just because people don't blow their own trumpets in the way you do, doesn't mean they do nothing.
And unlike you, what *they* do is unlikely to be included on their CV as a brag point.



> It's not about gentrification. It's about people. Maybe youse will wake up some day and see that.



"Youse"? Going for a bit of cred with some argot?
Gentrification *is* about people. People are implicated in and harmed by gentrification.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Bloat that CV. _Helper_.



Yup.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2015)

Diamond said:


> But those eejits who want to discourage me from giving up my free time to help people in Lambeth who need legal aid pro bono - you people can get fucked.



People don't want to discourage you from "giving up your free time", they'd like you to stop going on about your good works.
Interesting how absolutely you missed that.


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 17, 2015)

'Reclaim' is so general a word - it is hard to pin down what 'Reclaim Brixton' means. So far I can understand that it is inclusive of many ralated causes to save the market traders and oppose Lambeth council on various issues arround planning and housing.

I'd like to 'reclaim' or perhaps just 'save' London from becoming an even more divided city - with only rich people living within zone 2 and  cleansed of the poor. I'm not sure we all want to 'reclaim' the same things and I'm reading this thread to find out exactly what others want to reclaim. It is a valid question to ask - what do we want 'reclaim' and for whom? There is no go-back-in-time-a-tron. 

I don't want to hear an argument of who is allowed to live or work here in Brixton - that is the kind of small town/ village mentality, petty mindedness, xenophobia that I moved to the big city to avoid.  I'm fed up of the the 'I'm more Brixton than you' and 'you are all gentifiers' attitude' I keep hearing (IRL as well as here) The kind of personal abuse that I've read on this thread is not helpful to anyone.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> 'Reclaim' is so general a word - it is hard to pin down what 'Reclaim Brixton' means. So far I can understand that it is inclusive of many ralated causes to save the market traders and oppose Lambeth council on various issues arround planning and housing.
> 
> I'd like to 'reclaim' or perhaps just 'save' London from becoming an even more divided city - with only rich people living within zone 2 and  cleansed of the poor. I'm not sure we all want to 'reclaim' the same things and I'm reading this thread to find out exactly what others want to reclaim. It is a valid question to ask - what do we want 'reclaim' and for whom? There is no go-back-in-time-a-tron.
> 
> I don't want to hear an argument of who is allowed to live or work here in Brixton - that is the kind of small town/ village mentality, petty mindedness, xenophobia that I moved to the big city to avoid.  I'm fed up of the the 'I'm more Brixton than you' and 'you are all gentifiers' attitude' I keep hearing (IRL as well as here) The kind of personal abuse that I've read on this thread is not helpful to anyone.


i thought it meant reclaiming brixton from people only seeking to make a quick buck out of the area and those who wanted nothing better than to change the area to suit their own agendas: people seeking to impose development plans and so on. the thing i think people object to is the notion that regeneration or improvement of the area necessarily means the loss of community amenities, the current population, and conversely the necessity of gentrification.


----------



## 299 old timer (May 18, 2015)

Reclaim Brixton from the same bunch of Labour tossers who have been complicit in making what Brixton is today. The chance has come and gone, until the next time. Looks like the majority who voted for slimy Chuka don't really give a fuck about what is going on - turkeys voting for Xmas.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> 'Reclaim' is so general a word - it is hard to pin down what 'Reclaim Brixton' means. So far I can understand that it is inclusive of many ralated causes to save the market traders and oppose Lambeth council on various issues arround planning and housing.



And reclaim it from people who are only here to profiteer. The massive problem that *anywhere* with a "vibrant" local culture has, is that some people will always want to "buy into" the culture at a safe distance (as opposed to doing the normal thing of moving somewhere and finding your own way), and some people will always be on hand to marketise local culture and sell it on as a "consumer experience" (hence the whole Clapham = partytown meme). I know one can't really "reclaim" Brixton from that commercialisation of our culture - as the old saying goes, "money talks" - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't rail against it or cast the occasional clog into the money machine.



> I'd like to 'reclaim' or perhaps just 'save' London from becoming an even more divided city - with only rich people living within zone 2 and  cleansed of the poor. I'm not sure we all want to 'reclaim' the same things and I'm reading this thread to find out exactly what others want to reclaim. It is a valid question to ask - what do we want 'reclaim' and for whom? There is no go-back-in-time-a-tron.



I don't think we *can* save London from becoming an even more divided city, because it's what those with the money want - safety and security - and that only comes with straight divisions between haves and have-nots. We were lost the moment "gated communities" were allowed back in the '80s.



> I don't want to hear an argument of who is allowed to live or work here in Brixton - that is the kind of small town/ village mentality, petty mindedness, xenophobia that I moved to the big city to avoid.  I'm fed up of the the 'I'm more Brixton than you' and 'you are all gentifiers' attitude' I keep hearing (IRL as well as here) The kind of personal abuse that I've read on this thread is not helpful to anyone.



Some people feel threatened. I know I certainly do. My council has pretty much said, w/r/t my estate: "Fuck the people that live there, we're going for regeneration". The problem is that "it's not for us". State-led regeneration never is. It has a long and ignoble history of removing many of the "indigenous" people through simple economics. 
Anecdotally, this sort of engineered demographic change finds favour with our current local administration. They're sanguine about elements of their core electorate - the "problem" families in the social housing who take up so much of their time - being removed, because they see those votes as being replaced in the majority by those of "nice" people who don't make such demands on them.  

I've moved on a bit from "you're all gentrifiers" to "I'm happy to welcome anyone who participates in the wider community". What I don't welcome is people who want "the Brixton experience" while remaining at a remove from that community and their effect on that community. My vision of "reclaiming" Brixton is the continuance of the fluidly multi-cultural, multi-class, reasonably sexuality-blind atmosphere that has come into being over the last 40 years or so. All those elements go toward making Brixton the place I love, and the removal of *any* of those elements will - in my opinion - have the effect of destroying what makes Brixton different.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Reclaim Brixton from the same bunch of Labour tossers who have been complicit in making what Brixton is today. The chance has come and gone, until the next time. Looks like the majority who voted for slimy Chuka don't really give a fuck about what is going on - turkeys voting for Xmas.



Edited.
"Reclaim Brixton" from Labour, fine.
it's not just about Lambeth Labour, though. It's also about the relentless marketisation of "Brixton as a tourist experience", where that benefits a narrow pool of property-owners and a narrower pool of business-owners, but kebabs everyone else.


----------



## Diamond (May 18, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> uh huh
> 
> 
> Pro bono, every single word  you posted.
> ...


 
You think I do pro bono for my CV?

You think that city law firms give one tiny quantum of a shit about pro bono?

How fucking naive are you?


----------



## Diamond (May 18, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Calling people 'punters' is not helping them either. It's what the gambling and prostitution business use as a term for those less esteemed than the less esteemed.


 
It's part of the common lexicon of my pro bono clinic - funnily enough we have a sense of humour, pretending that we're people of ill-repute.


----------



## Diamond (May 18, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thing is, plenty of people work _pro bono_. Most don't mention it every chance they get. That's nothing to do with my disliking what you post, or being "prejudiced", it's about the fact that you throw your "good works" and your education in peoples' faces. Most of us grew out of that by our early 20s, and just get on with doing what we can.


 
I have mentioned it maybe two or three times on these boards in four years of advising, all pertinent.

Don't caricature my position with "_every chance [you] get_" because it is obvious nonsense that undermines your general posting still further.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 18, 2015)

Diamond said:


> It's part of the common lexicon of my pro bono clinic



so what?


----------



## Diamond (May 18, 2015)

Anyway, reflecting the chorus of those less keen on viciously personal attacks and intending to get back on topic - I am yet to be convinced that the whole idea of "reclaiming" an area, any area for that matter, makes sense.

It has similarities with revanchist and/or irredentist ideas, which almost always depend on some romanticised, concrete myth, which on closer inspection, is not so concrete at all.


----------



## Diamond (May 18, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> so what?


 
So I'm not really concerned about your opinion, especially when you seek to advance it by rather snide selective quotation.


----------



## Up the junction (May 18, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> so what?


what?


----------



## butchersapron (May 18, 2015)

28 grand a year and _this _is all they got back (now risen to £11,264 a term).


----------



## 299 old timer (May 18, 2015)

Diamond said:


> You think I do pro bono for my CV?
> 
> You think that city law firms give one tiny quantum of a shit about pro bono?
> 
> How fucking naive are you?



City law firms do give a shit about pro bono - it makes them look very decent and is good press. Just go to the front page of any City law firm's website and there it is, nowadays they call it "Corporate Social Responsibility".
Are you sure you know what you're talking about?


----------



## Diamond (May 18, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> City law firms do give a shit about pro bono - it makes them look very decent and is good press. Just go to the front page of any City law firm's website and there it is, nowadays they call it "Corporate Social Responsibility".
> Are you sure you know what you're talking about?


 
Right...

So that's why over the course of maybe 15 interviews with about 6 different firms over the past 3 years, not a single one asked about my participation in pro bono...


----------



## butchersapron (May 18, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Right...
> 
> So that's why over the course of maybe 15 interviews with about 6 different firms over the past 3 years, not a single one asked about my participation in pro bono...


I'm sure you made sure they knew.


----------



## 299 old timer (May 18, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Right...
> 
> So that's why over the course of maybe 15 interviews with about 6 different firms over the past 3 years, not a single one asked about my participation in pro bono...



Talk about miss the point completely


----------



## Diamond (May 18, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> I'm sure you made sure they knew.


 
I'm a lot more sure that you have zero idea of what you pretend to know.  Here in particular and more generally.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 18, 2015)

Diamond said:


> So I'm not really concerned about your opinion, especially when you seek to advance it by rather snide selective quotation.



OK.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Anyway, reflecting the chorus of those less keen on viciously personal attacks and intending to get back on topic - I am yet to be convinced that the whole idea of "reclaiming" an area, any area for that matter, makes sense.
> 
> It has similarities with revanchist and/or irredentist ideas, which almost always depend on some romanticised, concrete myth, which on closer inspection, is not so concrete at all.



Similarities my arse. It doesn't hark back to a mythic golden age or a wish to reclaim territory, it merely wishes to preserve some of what makes our home *our home*.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2015)

Diamond said:


> I have mentioned it maybe two or three times on these boards in four years of advising, all pertinent.



On six different threads, more than once on most of those threads. That six threads where you mention "my pro bono work" or "my pro bono clinic". I haven't included any of the times you've mentioned pro bono as a general thing, because that's not what we're talking about

So, not "two or three times on these boards". Double that many threads, and many times than number of instances. The search function is your friend. 



> Don't caricature my position with "_every chance [you] get_" because it is obvious nonsense that undermines your general posting still further.



The "obvious nonsense" is the "hardly ever" line you tried to spin above.


----------



## Diamond (May 18, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> On six different threads, more than once on most of those threads. That six threads where you mention "my pro bono work" or "my pro bono clinic". I haven't included any of the times you've mentioned pro bono as a general thing, because that's not what we're talking about
> 
> So, not "two or three times on these boards". Double that many threads, and many times than number of instances. The search function is your friend.
> 
> ...


 
Congratulations on your diligence.  I have been on these boards well over ten years, I have advised pro bono for around four years and, I can't be asked to check your findings so I'll take them on trust, I have mentioned my pro bono advice six times...in four years.

Damning stuff, truly damning.


----------



## Diamond (May 18, 2015)

Also, I'm still not sure what the underlying point is - the fact that I provide free legal advice to residents of Lambeth who need it on areas such as housing - that's totally irrelevant to the subject matter, provides me with no special insight, renders my opinions beyond worthless, or merely winds you up because you would rather someone else was doing it in the first place?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Congratulations on your diligence.  I have been on these boards well over ten years, I have advised pro bono for around four years and, I can't be asked to check your findings so I'll take them on trust, I have mentioned my pro bono advice six times...in four years.
> 
> Damning stuff, truly damning.



Lets hope you read documents more thoroughly than posts.
Not "six times".
6 different threads.
More than once on each thread (not including this one, by the way).


----------



## ddraig (May 18, 2015)

please Diamond, you have ruined this thread, please stop


----------



## Diamond (May 18, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Lets hope you read documents more thoroughly than posts.
> Not "six times".
> 6 different threads.
> More than once on each thread (not including this one, by the way).


 
Six times, six occasions, six threads - split the hairs all you want...


----------



## editor (May 18, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Six times, six occasions, six threads - split the hairs all you want...


This thread has gone off topic enough. Please do not mention your pro bono work again and I would ask posters to do the same


----------



## 299 old timer (May 18, 2015)

Ok Diamond, City law firms don't give a shit about  "Corporate Social Responsibility", that's why they dedicate a whole page on their websites to the matter:

http://www.addleshawgoddard.com/csr/

http://www.taylorwessing.com/about-us/corporate-social-responsibility.html

http://www.pinsentmasons.com/en/about-us/starfish/

http://www.allenovery.com/corporate-responsibility/Pages/default-new-page.aspx

http://www.olswang.com/who-we-are/corporate-responsibility/

etc etc etc

edit ooopps, sorry editor!


----------



## Diamond (May 18, 2015)

To be fair, I made an attempt to drag it back on topic just up the page but that seems to have slipped beneath the waves.  I'll steer clear for a while to allow others to plot a better course.

(see proximate post above...)


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2015)

Diamond said:


> Also, I'm still not sure what the underlying point is - the fact that I provide free legal advice to residents of Lambeth who need it on areas such as housing - that's totally irrelevant to the subject matter, provides me with no special insight, renders my opinions beyond worthless, or merely winds you up because you would rather someone else was doing it in the first place?



The underlying point is that you offer an opinion and qualify it with (to paraphrase) "I do pro bono work in Lambeth and none of my punters have ever mentioned anything about reclaiming Brixton", (your post #1213) as though this has any meaning with regard to the movement "Reclaim Brixton", which is as much about community and community issues as about the individual sufferings of the people of Brixton and Lambeth.
That I find you dickheadish, self-promoting and self-aggrandising is irrelevant, and doesn't render your opinions worthless. It renders them worthy.
Of scrutiny.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2015)

editor said:


> This thread has gone off topic enough. Please do not mention your pro bono work again and I would ask posters to do the same



I have posted my last on the subject (post #1318).


----------



## editor (May 18, 2015)

Here's some more info about the forthcoming benefit 
Brixton Fightback concert and the Save Cressingham Gardens campaign


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 18, 2015)

The 'Reclaim' word will get people scratching their heads, I don't think it sums up every aim behind all the causes, but I'm not sure there is a word that does. It does say something though, and that is 'act now' and if you have to question it too much then you'll never get what Reclaim: Brixton is really about, and mostly because you don't want to.  There's enough on these pages, and others, and facebook, twitter etc..., which scream out the motivations of those involved and if you need to question those motives and reduce it down to what does 'reclaim' means then you have failed to pay any attention to the honest fight people are having to engage in just to stay in their own homes....


----------



## editor (May 18, 2015)

Trollboy 'violet panda' forthwith ejected back to whence it came.


----------



## David Clapson (May 18, 2015)

Will this thread always be the main one about Reclaim Brixton? Would it be useful to have a new thread about what we do next? We've got to keep the momentum going and not be distracted by people who still want to question the name of a demo which happened weeks ago.


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 18, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> Will this thread always be the main one about Reclaim Brixton? Would it be useful to have a new thread about what we do next? We've got to keep the momentum going and not be distracted by people who still want to question the name of a demo which happened weeks ago.



I thought Reclaim:Brixton was an organisation? not just the one day?   they did something outside Foxtons before the big thing in Brixton the other Saturday, didn't they?	Yes I'd like to know what we can do next too. 
But everytime I check this thread I just find a load of people slagging each other off.



Nanker Phelge said:


> The 'Reclaim' word will get people scratching their heads, I don't think it sums up every aim behind all the causes, but I'm not sure there is a word that does. It does say something though, and that is 'act now' and if you have to question it too much then you'll never get what Reclaim: Brixton is really about, and mostly because you don't want to.  There's enough on these pages, and others, and facebook, twitter etc..., which scream out the motivations of those involved and if you need to question those motives and reduce it down to what does 'reclaim' means then you have failed to pay any attention to the honest fight people are having to engage in just to stay in their own homes....



I'm against the sell off homes, I'm against what the council are doing. I support the market. I support people fighting to have a home, I've been following whats happening at Cressingham and the Guiness ests.  I was at event on 25th April and I have read all this thread (sorry I'm an old fart so I don't do facebook or twitter) - but even I'm still unclear about some of the stuff I've read and heard. 

Are people not allowed to ask questions? I know some friends /neighbours/ co workers have no clue what its about at all, or they beleive the tiny bit they heard from the papers and I can only tell them what I know. Not everyone will be an activist, some people just live, shop, work here - not everyone is on line -  shouldn't causes like this seek a community wide support base?  

This isn't a simple single issue campaign but broader movements still need to be clear about what they are for and sweep all sorts of support along with them, don't they?   I suppose the intolerance of some of the 'anti-gentification', some of the who qualifies as community sort views I've come across on these forums makes me wary of getting more involved, even though I want to do something to save the diverse Brixton and London that I love.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 18, 2015)

That is exactly where most people feel. In the middle of something they just don't understand. I don't think the words 'Reclaim Brixton' tell the whole story, but I don't know what words will. I think people want a a voice and today that voice is aired under 'reclaim brixton'. It's not a perfect pitch, but it is a place to start from. I think it is the place to stand and ask questions, but it is not the place for pedants and semantics. Yet.

I think 'reclaim brixton' will grow up beyond those two words.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I thought Reclaim:Brixton was an organisation? not just the one day?   they did something outside Foxtons before the big thing in Brixton the other Saturday, didn't they?	Yes I'd like to know what we can do next too.
> But everytime I check this thread I just find a load of people slagging each other off.
> 
> I'm against the sell off homes, I'm against what the council are doing. I support the market. I support people fighting to have a home, I've been following whats happening at Cressingham and the Guiness ests.  I was at event on 25th April and I have read all this thread (sorry I'm an old fart so I don't do facebook or twitter) - but even I'm still unclear about some of the stuff I've read and heard.
> ...



The demo would not have happened without wide range of community support. I think the amount of interest in Reclaim Brixton surprised the person who started it off. It just took off suddenly. This would not have happened if it had not got the interest of a lot of people. The actual day had Council tenants, Housing Association tenants, shopkeepers etc on it. This does show wide community base.

I do not think most of the people involved are what one would call full time political activists.

I just live and shop here as well. I played a small part in it as I feel the need to try and do something. There is so much going on in the area that I find it hard to keep up or do more than I do now.

It has also been well covered by Brixton Buzz and Brixton Blog.

I have reposted up here from the Facebook page as well. There is enough info out there.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> The 'Reclaim' word will get people scratching their heads, I don't think it sums up every aim behind all the causes, but I'm not sure there is a word that does. It does say something though, and that is 'act now' and if you have to question it too much then you'll never get what Reclaim: Brixton is really about, and mostly because you don't want to.  There's enough on these pages, and others, and facebook, twitter etc..., which scream out the motivations of those involved and if you need to question those motives and reduce it down to what does 'reclaim' means then you have failed to pay any attention to the honest fight people are having to engage in just to stay in their own homes....



Well said, Senor Phelge. Well said.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2015)

editor said:


> Trollboy 'violet panda' forthwith ejected back to whence it came.



That's a pity. He was quite the thriller.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> That is exactly where most people feel. In the middle of something they just don't understand. I don't think the words 'Reclaim Brixton' tell the whole story, but I don't know what words will. I think people want a a voice and today that voice is aired under 'reclaim brixton'. It's not a perfect pitch, but it is a place to start from. I think it is the place to stand and ask questions, but it is not the place for pedants and semantics. Yet.
> 
> I think 'reclaim brixton' will grow up beyond those two words.



I don't think it's *possible* to tell the whole story, simply because everybody's version is inflected with their personal experiences - we all bring who we are to "Reclaim Brixton", and hopefully what we take from it is a sense of unity and community - of not feeling alone in the middle of a maelstrom.


----------



## paolo (May 19, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> My vision of "reclaiming" Brixton is the continuance of the fluidly multi-cultural, multi-class, reasonably sexuality-blind atmosphere that has come into being over the last 40 years or so. All those elements go toward making Brixton the place I love, and the removal of *any* of those elements will - in my opinion - have the effect of destroying what makes Brixton different.



Wonderfully put - I think a lot of people would stand by that.

I hope reclaim can become something that unifies people who care about Brixton - regardless of race, class, clothes or anything else that superficially divides.


----------



## editor (May 20, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's a pity. He was quite the thriller.


He certainly had some very old (as in two decades) and rather strange personal beef to dredge up, but it had nothing to do with Reclaim Brixton so he had to go. No doubt he'll be back soon.


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## Gramsci (May 20, 2015)

REEL News will be showing there film of Reclaim Brixton along with short docs from other part of the world. REEL NEWS have been around for a while. They do a lot on a shoestring budget to cover what mainstream media might miss or not show in sympathetic light.

They also sell ( quite cheap) DVD version. More info here







*Film night in Brixton on May 28*

The defeat of the Labour Party in the election seems to follow the pattern of social democratic parties across Europe being in crisis through implementing the politics of austerity.
In places like Greece and Spain, people who don't feel represented by any political party have built huge mass movements and formed their own parties - with housing activism being a major driving force.
Are we sseeing the start of our own mass movement in Britain with the growing housing movement and events like Reclaim Brixton?

*Join us for a FREE informal night of films, discussion, music and drinks as we show:*

*RECLAIM BRIXTON (Reel News 2015) 15:29*
Thousands take part in the Reclaim Brixton to send a powerful message to Lambeth Council: Stop selling Brixton off to property developers and start putting people before profit.

*THE LEGACY OF THE BLACK PANTHERS (Reel News 2008) 20:49*
Spawned by the US civil rights movement of the 60s, the Panthers were masters of community organisation in a country with very little political representation.

*GREECE: COMMUNITY ORGANISING (Reel News,2012) 22:14*
How a mass movement based on solidarity grew to combat savage austerity measures.

*SPAIN: INDIGNADOS - 25-S (Reel News, 2012) 15:41*
"They don't represent us!" Spain's mass movement surround Parliament in 2012, just before the formation of Podemos.


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## ManSoAdmired (May 22, 2015)

Looks fantastic, I'll be there. Will there be any discussion of future Reclaim Brixton efforts? I'm interested in getting involved, but I'm completely new to activism.


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## Gramsci (May 22, 2015)

ManSoAdmired said:


> Looks fantastic, I'll be there. Will there be any discussion of future Reclaim Brixton efforts? I'm interested in getting involved, but I'm completely new to activism.



There will be people who have been involved in RB there. So you are welcome to come and chat. They are friendly bunch of people.


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## Gramsci (Jun 14, 2015)




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## editor (Jul 22, 2015)

Next assembly this Saturday. 






Reclaim Brixton host Pop Up Assembly in Windrush Square, 25th July at noon


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## brixtonblade (Jul 22, 2015)

It's interesting that the council seems to be the main organisation getting criticised (beyond broader objections to gentrification as a process) 

Is there any evidence of labour getting less support locally?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2015)

editor said:


> Next assembly this Saturday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how does a pop up assembly differ from a static protest?


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## editor (Jul 22, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> how does a pop up assembly differ from a static protest?


Perhaps they're just using the on-trend vernacular to make a point?


----------



## T & P (Jul 22, 2015)

I was much happier with the original plans put forward by Grow Assembly, tbh...















(just kidding, editor. Just kidding)


----------



## ddraig (Jul 22, 2015)

so hilarious init!!


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## Twattor (Jul 22, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> It's interesting that the council seems to be the main organisation getting criticised (beyond broader objections to gentrification as a process)
> 
> Is there any evidence of labour getting less support locally?



I doubt it; most people don't look beyond the name of the party, irrespective of policies local or otherwise. A lot of people will support the same party simply because they always have done.

I often think that political parties should be forced to change their names every two years in the way that telecoms companies seem to do.  In 10 years time we'd have no idea which party was which, and people would actually have to look at policies to decide who got their vote.


----------



## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2015)

http://www.progress.org/article/an-...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

This is a recent US article about the economics of gentrification and points to community ownership such as Land Trusts, explaining how they work in other places and get started.	

Also, a Community Charter in Scotland's Forth Valley - the first of its kind in the UK - is being used as a unique method to oppose commercial interests. The Charter has been inspired by numerous Bills of Rights that protestors are using throughout the US to uphold the rights of communities.


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## Gramsci (Jul 24, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> It's interesting that the council seems to be the main organisation getting criticised (beyond broader objections to gentrification as a process)
> 
> Is there any evidence of labour getting less support locally?



I think its rational response to what is happening to Brixton.

After all on Pop thread one poster said that instead of criticising Pop and the business in it one should criticise the Council for allowing it to happen.

The Council who are supposed to represent and support interests of residents and small business are more than willing to do deal with developers ( Our Town Hall) and not take sides against big landowners ( Network Rail). And set up pointless schemes like Pop.

So I think it right to criticise this administration.

There would be no need for Reclaim Brixton if Lambeth Labour fought for the small affordable local shop, Council housing and not closing libraries for example.


----------



## editor (Jul 24, 2015)

I'm guessing it's a response to the 'threat' of Saturday's protest but - lol - Foxtons is all boarded up http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/07/brixton-foxtons-is-all-boarded-up-again/


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 25, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> It's interesting that the council seems to be the main organisation getting criticised (beyond broader objections to gentrification as a process)
> 
> Is there any evidence of labour getting less support locally?



At the level of wards, no. They hold 56 out of 63, although that may change somewhat at the next locals.
At the level of constituency Labour Parties, Streatham, Dulwich etc and Vauxhall are all smaller and crapper than they were 20 years ago, mostly thanks to Blair's changes to party democracy. It was the last straw for a lot of my generation who were party members and activists. Why be active for a party you have no say in?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm guessing it's a response to the 'threat' of Saturday's protest but - lol - Foxtons is all boarded up http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/07/brixton-foxtons-is-all-boarded-up-again/



Wonder if they'll have their own honour guard of plod again?


----------



## Twattor (Jul 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm guessing it's a response to the 'threat' of Saturday's protest but - lol - Foxtons is all boarded up http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/07/brixton-foxtons-is-all-boarded-up-again/



Wasn't it the case that at the last Reclaim Brixton march the windows were put in in an oh-so-grown-up "legitimate" protest?  Shortly before everyone moved on to barnardos with some tenuous justification about historic abuse of second hand clothing or something equally sketchy.  Pathetic vandals justifying criminal damage in the name of politics.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Wasn't it the case that at the last Reclaim Brixton march the windows were put in in an oh-so-grown-up "legitimate" protest?  Shortly before everyone moved on to barnardos with some tenuous justification about historic abuse of second hand clothing or something equally sketchy.  Pathetic vandals justifying criminal damage in the name of politics.



Better to damage property than people.

Barnardo's is involved with the detention of children who are asylum seekers.  It's not an issue to be taken lightly.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Wasn't it the case that at the last Reclaim Brixton march the windows were put in in an oh-so-grown-up "legitimate" protest? <snip>


No.  One person kicked in one window.  During a day which was amazingly peaceful and harmonious, given the size of the crowd.

No matter what you think of 2nd hand clothes or the principles which Barnardo's claims to uphold, the charity has very dirty hands indeed.  Children from the homes were shipped off to to do extremely hard manual work in the colonies (including ones who they weren't orphans, and not telling the parents where those children had been sent, let alone that they'd been sent) as late as the 1950s.

That's before you take into account what they currently do about non adult asylum seekers.


----------



## editor (Jul 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Wasn't it the case that at the last Reclaim Brixton march the windows were put in in an oh-so-grown-up "legitimate" protest?  Shortly before everyone moved on to barnardos with some tenuous justification about historic abuse of second hand clothing or something equally sketchy.  Pathetic vandals justifying criminal damage in the name of politics.


You've got just about all of your facts wrong there.
This isn't a march. It's not advertised as a march. Reclaim Brixton wasn't a march. Today's event is an assembly. And the last one passed by peacefully without any incidents whatsoever. 

And remember: there's no marching.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Wasn't it the case that at the last Reclaim Brixton march the windows were put in in an oh-so-grown-up "legitimate" protest?  Shortly before everyone moved on to barnardos with some tenuous justification about historic abuse of second hand clothing or something equally sketchy.  Pathetic vandals justifying criminal damage in the name of politics.


I was a bit confused about the Barnados bit. But it has happened before on other demos.

Maybe someone has a beef about child migrants? Barnados were highly involved in sending "orphans" to Australia and Canada where some fell prey to violent and abusive Christian Brothers schools (which sounded more like farms operated by child labour to me).

Sounds like a more likely cause of violent emotions than abuse of old clothing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2015)

editor said:


> You've got just about all of your facts wrong there.
> This isn't a march. It's not advertised as a march. Reclaim Brixton wasn't a march. Today's event is an assembly. And the last one passed by peacefully without any incidents whatsoever.
> 
> And remember: there's no marching.


edited: missed the do on 27/6


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## editor (Jul 25, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i must have imagined the to-do at the police station then


Reclaim Brixton took place in Windrush Square and was never advertised as a march. What people chose to do after the event is up to them.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Reclaim Brixton took place in Windrush Square and was never advertised as a march. What people chose to do after the event is up to them.


i was referring to the april do at which there were several processions, the june event having passed me by.


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## editor (Jul 25, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i was referring to the april do at which there were several processions, the june event having passed me by.


The April event was never advertised as march either (although several estates marched _to _the event).


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## Winot (Jul 25, 2015)

What's wrong with a march anyway


----------



## editor (Jul 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> What's wrong with a march anyway


Nothing at all, although legally it's a whole different ball game to a static assembly.


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## Tricky Skills (Jul 25, 2015)

Here's the June assembly. It was more like a slightly rebellious school assembly than an anti-capitalist crusade. Passionate, but 100 people max. And we all sat down in a nice circle on the Windrush Square grass.


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## Winot (Jul 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Nothing at all, although legally it's a whole different ball game to a static assembly.



Ah, gotcha. That makes sense.


----------



## Sly (Jul 25, 2015)

I had the pleasure of staying in your area of London over the last month and witnessed how intense that main square can be sometimes - which inspired me to write this poem while I walked around Brixton one day.  Hope everything works out for everyone.  Cheers.
*
Brixton*_ ~ 7/24/15 8:44 P.M._

Broken djembe drummer
Try beating over
Political loud speaker
Of another street sweeper
Is there no common cause in the volume of all

The rich, white lady
Violent waving
The same bookend
As the ISIS trend
What’s so unbelievable about these non-believers

Fashion friendly yuppie
Sharply selling
Corporate coupons
To demographics’ piss-ons
Do bad people find places that are good to their people

The poor, black beggar
Thinks you were
Worth the same name
As the KKK
Because you didn't give smokes to those hungry throats

Sarcastic graffiti artists
Covering comics
To fight each other
Over who’s owner
Superheroes forgetting their need to be heroic

The cheat drug dealer
Peddling bad healer
The same ethics
As fast food practice
Are there legal differences if illegal is indifferent

Paradise door bouncer
Judging suitors
In need of drink
Relief from street
Can the sour come cleaner than the sweeter seem dirty

Stoned, hippie baby-doll
Crying on the wall
An empty list
To help the homeless
If it was the thought that counted you’d give it a second thought

There’s writing on the mall
“Everything must fall”
The reality of these estates
Neighbors have sponsored window frames
The dog house was condemned to be an H&M
And Ronald bought the back yard
They’re growing grass again in the parks
For the college kids to drink their budgets
Within the bars of the freshly painted fences
Police officers finally offered up some policy
Protecting the welcoming of Tesco’s new community
They’re directing the rich to watch the signs
That read “CCTV is watching live”
Criminals best dare to be aware
No picking pockets on the stairs
On the way down to the tube to the next ghetto
Rent will be too low to feel like home sweet home
Just remember the month you lived before being evicted
From a place safe enough for you to stop staying in
Water filled the stones again almost miraculously
Everything got boring after it got clean – socially
But tourists seem to like the area for its mundanity
Every aisle is marked for easy opportunity
It’s never hard to get around
When everywhere is just like your hometown
See, Electric Avenue couldn’t keep the lights lit
So Starbucks is expanding its campaign to kill Brixton

‘Race’ games causing tension
Distraction
In a class system situation

We’re all one race, every person
Human
On Mother Earth’s skin

Poor is poorest poured empty
Solitary
Under the rich’s full capacity

We’re all one cause, equally
Solidarity
Out of love to live peacefully

The out with the old, in with the new mentality
Died of old age in the birth of its second second
Naturally
Sisters take off your leopard skins
And hand them to bare brethren
Some things are going to fall this autumn
Back to school sales on businesses at the bottom
Whose owners can’t afford
To have their voices heard
Inconvenient citizens at fault
For supporting convenient parts
Everyone is guilty
For the fast food need
The daily clothes shopping
Every single cup of coffee
And every distraction in the way
Experiencing life through microwaves
Everything that was wanted
Now wants everything
We could not see
How what made life an easier hell
How our conveniences always inconvenienced someone else
We’ll just take turns being that someone else
‘Til someone tells the rich to sell themselves
There’s a fire sale in the clearance part of town
No one’s stopping crime
They’re just moving it around
But if there was ever a time to stand still with shame and guilt
To change the narrative of a planet burning out
Brixton, the time is now.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Wasn't it the case that at the last Reclaim Brixton march the windows were put in in an oh-so-grown-up "legitimate" protest?  Shortly before everyone moved on to barnardos with some tenuous justification about historic abuse of second hand clothing or something equally sketchy.  Pathetic vandals justifying criminal damage in the name of politics.


 Damaging property is a historic form of political protest, and the media always calls it vandalism, equating it with some mindless form of destruction. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/57781419 it's nothing new. Our system of law values property above people, so attacking property is a logical thing to do.

Its only a shame they didn't daub the windows or hand out leaflets with the message they wanted to get across so it appeared in the media ignorant of the wrongs done by Barnardos, so the public would understand why they had chosen that particular charity as a target.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 25, 2015)

Also, Foxtons.

Bricking a Foxtons during a protest is like picking up some litter and putting it in the correct recycle bins.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 25, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Damaging property is a historic form of political protest, and the media always calls it vandalism, equating it with some mindless form of destruction. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/57781419 it's nothing new. Our system of law values property above people, so attacking property is a logical thing to do.
> 
> Its only a shame they didn't daub the windows or hand out leaflets with the message they wanted to get across so it appeared in the media ignorant of the wrongs done by Barnardos, so the public would understand why they had chosen that particular charity as a target.


they can smash up any property if it's "a logical thing" to do, as long as it's not mine.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 25, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Our system of law values property above people



How do you mean?


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 25, 2015)

I thought that was the historic basis of alot of our laws. Certainly it did when suffragettes where around or when Barnados sent children away with permission of their parents.   Perhaps I should have phrased that in the past tense - 'Our system of law valued property above people, so attacking property was a logical thing to do.'  

When I heard some of the punitive sentences handed out to looters after the 2011 rioting I thought that our law still overvalues property. What do you think?


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Wasn't it the case that at the last Reclaim Brixton march the windows were put in in an oh-so-grown-up "legitimate" protest?  Shortly before everyone moved on to barnardos with some tenuous justification about historic abuse of second hand clothing or something equally sketchy.  Pathetic vandals justifying criminal damage in the name of politics.



Interesting. So much excrement in a single post from someone who usually prides themselves on being well-informed.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 25, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I thought that was the historic basis of alot of our laws. Certainly it did when suffragettes where around or when Barnados sent children away with permission of their parents.   Perhaps I should have phrased that in the past tense - 'Our system of law valued property above people, so attacking property was a logical thing to do.'
> 
> When I heard some of the punitive sentences handed out to looters after the 2011 rioting I thought that our law still overvalues property. What do you think?



Fair enough. When I read it I just thought: "if I smashed in a window, I'd get a bollocking; if I did the same to someone's face, I'd get a heavier penalty". But I'm not a lawyer, judge, policeman or thug with a history of violent crime so I'm probably wrong.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 26, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fair enough. When I read it I just thought: "if I smashed in a window, I'd get a bollocking; if I did the same to someone's face, I'd get a heavier penalty". But I'm not a lawyer, judge, policeman or thug with a history of violent crime so I'm probably wrong.


I don't know either - there's probably an urb with more experience who can put us right.


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## Gramsci (Jul 26, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fair enough. When I read it I just thought: "if I smashed in a window, I'd get a bollocking; if I did the same to someone's face, I'd get a heavier penalty". But I'm not a lawyer, judge, policeman or thug with a history of violent crime so I'm probably wrong.



In the case of violence against property which is considered to be part of a riot what Judges/ police call "exemplary" sentences are handed down. That is you get more time for it than if you had done the same act on a drunken Saturday night. One thing the State does not like is when the ordinary Joe decides to threaten social "order".


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## Gramsci (Jul 26, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I thought that was the historic basis of alot of our laws. Certainly it did when suffragettes where around or when Barnados sent children away with permission of their parents.   Perhaps I should have phrased that in the past tense - 'Our system of law valued property above people, so attacking property was a logical thing to do.'
> 
> When I heard some of the punitive sentences handed out to looters after the 2011 rioting I thought that our law still overvalues property. What do you think?



You are correct. Its also something that’s been contested. Its the concept of private property that is defended by the State that provides one of the basis for modern Capitalism. Loss of common land and enclosures in 19C is one aspect of it. 

Bringing up the Suffragettes is interesting. They did do attacks on property as part of the campaign for the vote. 

Are posters here saying that was out of order? That they should have lobbied peacefully like the Suffragists?


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## BigMoaner (Jul 27, 2015)

Depends whose property they are attacking. And depends on your definition of property (i.e. are we just talking bricks and mortor/land or does it extend to other types of property such as cars, personal items, etc?). if it's the property of those withholding the vote then perhaps justified. which is far different than saying "it is logical to attack property as the state values it more than humans". it'd be more "logical" to attack the state, surely - rather than what people own?


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## ddraig (Jul 27, 2015)

How do you 'attack the state'?


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## Greebo (Jul 27, 2015)

ddraig said:


> How do you 'attack the state'?


The same way you eat an elephant; bit by bit, and preferably with a lot of help.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 27, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> Depends whose property they are attacking. And depends on your definition of property (i.e. are we just talking bricks and mortor/land or does it extend to other types of property such as cars, personal items, etc?). if it's the property of those withholding the vote then perhaps justified. which is far different than saying "it is logical to attack property as the state values it more than humans". it'd be more "logical" to attack the state, surely - rather than what people own?


I was only talking about the attack on the Barnardos shop, and using the example of the suffragettes damaging public buildings (govt offices, shops and post boxes) 

I don't think that there is any justification to damage private individuals homes or property.


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## Winot (Jul 27, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I was only talking about the attack on the Barnardos shop, and using the example of the suffragettes damaging public buildings (govt offices, shops and post boxes)
> 
> I don't think that there is any justification to damage private individuals homes or property.



The suffragettes didn't have the vote, obviously, so they should be given more latitude when it comes to 'illegal' activity.  Similarly for apartheid South Africa.


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## editor (Jul 27, 2015)

Winot said:


> The suffragettes didn't have the vote, obviously, so they should be given more latitude when it comes to 'illegal' activity.  Similarly for apartheid South Africa.


How about this one? 





> Four women walked free from Liverpool Crown Court yesterday after a jury found them not guilty of criminal charges despite their admission that they did more than pounds 1.5m worth of damage to a Hawk warplane.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pounds-15m-hawk-attack-women-freed-1331285.html


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## Winot (Jul 27, 2015)

editor said:


> How about this one?



A good advert for Jury trials.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I was only talking about the attack on the Barnardos shop, and using the example of the suffragettes damaging public buildings (govt offices, shops and post boxes)
> 
> I don't think that there is any justification to damage private individuals homes or property.


i do. for example, we've all heard what rachman did to his own tenants. i wonder whether that might have stopped sooner had he suffered the same treatment.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 27, 2015)

ddraig said:


> How do you 'attack the state'?



I could tell you that, but then the state would know how I'm attacking them.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 27, 2015)

Greebo said:


> The same way you eat an elephant; bit by bit, and preferably with a lot of help.



And condiments.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 27, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I was only talking about the attack on the Barnardos shop, and using the example of the suffragettes damaging public buildings (govt offices, shops and post boxes)
> 
> I don't think that there is any justification to damage private individuals homes or property.



I think there can *sometimes* be some small justification for attacking the property (but not the homes of private individuals. For example, I think that the targeting of highly expensive vehicles for arson in Berlin was a partially-effective brake on property developers parking up in the working-class areas they aimed to gentrify.


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## ddraig (Jul 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I could tell you that, but then the state would know how I'm attacking them.


wanted Big Moaner to answer!


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## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2015)

ddraig said:


> wanted Big Moaner to answer!


no, you didn't. you really didn't.


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## Gramsci (Jul 27, 2015)

Winot said:


> The suffragettes didn't have the vote, obviously, so they should be given more latitude when it comes to 'illegal' activity.  Similarly for apartheid South Africa.



There is a difference.

Women did not have the vote. But in UK there was allowed peaceful protest and lobbying of government. Some women who campaigned for vote disagreed with the Suffragettes use of violent ( against property) methods. And btw they were damaging private property not government property in the link I give as example.

Its much easier to give people latitude in hindsight.

Apartheid was a violent suppression of sections ( the majority) of the population of SA. Any peaceful opposition was dealt with severely. The violence of the Apartheid state led to violent opposition in the end as the only possible way to get rid of Apartheid. Its an example of attacking the whole state. Apartheid was the basis of how the State worked. To oppose it was opposing the basis of the State. 

Unlike Suffragettes who wanted a reform of the State to allow women same right as (some) men to vote. They were not trying to overturn the whole state.


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## BigMoaner (Jul 28, 2015)

ddraig said:


> How do you 'attack the state'?


no idea. blow up the internet? you tell me.


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## ddraig (Jul 28, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> no idea. blow up the internet? you tell me.


you were saying it is better than attacking property so thought you may have had a plan!
or some thoughts at least


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## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> no idea. blow up the internet? you tell me.


how would you propose to blow up the internet?


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## SpamMisery (Jul 28, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> how would you propose to blow up the internet?


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## BigMoaner (Jul 28, 2015)

I would propose blowing up the internet by downloading too much stuff at once or some such technical shit.


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## Rushy (Jul 28, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> I would propose blowing up the internet by downloading too much stuff at once or some such technical shit.


Didn't they do just that in Lawnmower Man?


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## Rushy (Jul 28, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Didn't they do just that in Lawnmower Man?


Or did he just blow himself up?


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## BigMoaner (Jul 28, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Or did he just blow himself up?


no idea, sorry.


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## brixtonblade (Jul 28, 2015)

Typing 'Google' into Google should do it


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## Greebo (Jul 29, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> Typing 'Google' into Google should do it


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## BigMoaner (Jul 29, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> Typing 'Google' into Google should do it


i've just tried that an according to twitter i've blown up the internet in only South America and Japan. doesn't work, next


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