# Palm: Pre, webOS & app discussion



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 8, 2009)

Seems to me we need a new thread for Palm's new era. Ars has this rather enthusiastic write up of the new Palm:



> The entire UI is based on a "desktop + cards" paradigm, where "cards" replace "windows" or even "apps." You start with a display area that contains a blank desktop and an iPhone-style dock at the bottom. You can bring up a launcher card that slides up from the bottom of the screen and takes over, and from there you can bring up new cards: a web card containing a web page, a chat card with a conversation in it, an email card with your messages on it, etc. New cards slide up from the bottom, while the current card moves to the side, the result being that you can flip through a stream of cards from side-to-side, much like Apple's Coverflow.
> This card paradigm is truly fascinating, and it appears to be a very effective way to do multitasking on a smartphone.
> 
> Beneath the display region is a touch-sensitive gesture region, where you can use gestures to control the device without interfering with whatever it is you're doing in the display area. (e.g., you can use a gesture in this area to scroll a web page without accidentally clicking a link, like I sometimes do on my iPhone).


Treacentral's first impressions of the Palm Pre (not sure about that name, what's wrong with the Palm Exec or Palm Pro 2?):



> [FONT=verdana, arial][FONT=verdana, arial]The hardware for the Palm Pre is simply fantastic. My first thought is that it had an 'egg' shape, which can really backfire on devices, but on the Pre comes out as elegant and *organic*. Palm's presentation of the Pre really emphasized the organic and natural feel of the Pre in subtle ways -- their stage was wood, the color scheme around the presentation positively forest-like.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial][FONT=verdana, arial]
> [/FONT][/FONT]
> [FONT=verdana, arial][FONT=verdana, arial]The Pre itself has very natural lines and looks as though it feels absolutely fantastic in the hand. There are subtle touches throughout. One of the biggest ones is that the main portion of the screen has a significant and noticeable curve at the corners. The result is that the standard (and necessary) information like signal strength, carrier, time at the top and notifications at the bottom actually appear to be part of the hardware of the phone instead of interrupting your experience of whatever application you happen to be using. Palm really focused on how the Pre helps you focus on what you want without distraction and the Pre delivers. However you _do_ need all that distracting information so it's there, just not in a way that constantly bothers you.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial][FONT=verdana, arial]
> [/FONT][/FONT]
> [FONT=verdana, arial][FONT=verdana, arial]You may have noticed that I'm ostensibly in the "hardware" section of this impressions article but I've diverged into talking about software. That's key to the Pre's success -- the two are completely intertwined.[/FONT][/FONT]


Some photos of the Pre:

















So...what do people think of the new phone and the new OS? I'm not sure yet, still trying to get my head round whether this is an overcomplicated lot of spin or something genuinely new and possibly innovative..! 


(*ed: earlier thread here - http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=270940 )


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## Crispy (Jan 8, 2009)

It's definitely intriguing. And it beat my expectations, tbh. It'll be very interesting to see how it sells...


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 8, 2009)

I am not sure.

I think there are a lot of Palm sites who really really want to see Palm live as a company and are irrationally boosting this after, oh, a couple of hours. There are lots of potentially good things here, but come on - the comments quoted above are fanboyism.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 8, 2009)

The market's are impressed:






Source


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 8, 2009)

markets lol


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 8, 2009)

Just stating fact. Hmmm I quite like the clever way they've tried to straddle all the different contact accounts you can have...


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

It's way, way better than I ever expected, and if the videos (and user comments) on Engadget are anything to go by, this could be a real hit. The browser looks fantastic and the interface is silky smooth.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/palm-pre-in-depth-impressions-video-and-huge-hands-on-gallery/

Either way, it's great to see something genuinely new and fresh that seems to easily be on-par (or above) with its competitors.


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Here's the basic specs:


> High-speed wireless (EV-DO Rev. A or HSDPA, depending on version)
> 802.11b / g WiFi
> Integrated GPS
> 3.1-inch 24-bit color 480 x 320 display
> ...


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

editor said:


> It's way, way better than I ever expected, and if the videos (and user comments) on Engadget are anything to go by, this could be a real hit. The browser looks fantastic and the interface is silky smooth.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/palm-pre-in-depth-impressions-video-and-huge-hands-on-gallery/
> 
> Either way, it's great to see something genuinely new and fresh that seems to easily be on-par with its competitors.



I'm tempted to agree, being reading all kinds of stuff about it, quite like the integrated contacts/calendar/email thing they got going on. This is open but coherent (as opposed to wildly open Android and wildly closed Apple generalisations I know but it's a point none the less). 

Palm may be onto something with their 'fat middle' strategy...


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## Sunray (Jan 9, 2009)

This looks like they have pulled a diamond out of the hat when everyone was expecting a toy rabbit.  

So much so that I think its even eclipsing Android and there are suggestions that its even better than the iPhone, which rocks my world.  My 1st impressions is that its a very desirable bit of kit indeed.  I like the idea of multiple website convergence. It looks lovely.  The only sand in the Vaseline that I can see are that there is no 3d graphics acceleration on the phone, so no nice games.

It would have been nice it they had taken Apples lead on press conferences.  When Apple release or talk about something its usually available the next day.  I really liked that about them, it satisfies the kid consumer in me.  I just don't think that Palm could get away with waiting any longer.

Just had a quick look at that Video of the Phone in operation, there was a slight lag on the touch scrolling, but its not the finished product so I would expect that to dissapear.   

It super snappy. Like the card style interface for applications.  Like the speed of scrolling a web page, on the iPhone there is a significant moment when it renders the newly uncovered area.  This is in the main, down to the lowly clocked ARM11 Apple use, lower speed than even the iTouch.  The Pre has one of those new super low power but super powerful TI OMAP CPU's, blimey does that power show.  Zings along.

As I said initially, this is a new market segment.  These devices are starting to come of age because current technology is them possible, this is a real player in that market.


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think there are a lot of Palm sites who really really want to see Palm live as a company and are irrationally boosting this after, oh, a couple of hours. There are lots of potentially good things here, but come on - the comments quoted above are fanboyism.


Arstechnica has never been what I'd call a Palm fanboy site, and the guy reviewing it (their deputy editor) is an iPhone user:





> As a dedicated iPhone user, I experienced something very strange and quite unexpected while watching Palm demo the new OS: _my iPhone suddenly felt old and played out_. It's like Palm started with the iPhone, copied all the best ideas, and then made the whole package better.
> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/pos...-new-handset-pre-operating-system-at-ces.html


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

Any news or hint on how the storage may work? Is it just solid state or will there be a micro sd card for memory expansion?


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

Sunray said:


> It would have been nice it they had taken Apples lead on press conferences.  When Apple release or talk about something its usually available the next day.  I really liked that about them, it satisfies the kid consumer in me.



The first version of the iPhone was announced six months before anyone could buy it.


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

I never thought that Palm would get me excited again, or even get close to the iPhone, but early reviews suggest that it's got some mighty impressive tricks up its sleeve. It's faster than Safari and there's cut and paste too!


> The UI is incredibly well thought out and smooth. Animations going in and out of apps, and all of the menus and switching are done with a grace and simplicity that we rarely see on any device. *The UI outclasses most of its competition on a number of levels, and actually may be quite a bit more revolutionary than the iPhone. *Multitasking works like a charm, and reps say you can push it quite hard before you'll need to close applications. One of the most fascinating components of the UI is that when you're zoomed out to cards, the data is still active in the previews.
> 
> There are all sorts of little perks to the OS that make things easy and convenient. For instance, when viewing an email you can click on the sender and view their contact card, which is populated with traditional info like phone and email, but also includes statuses for different services like GoogleTalk and Facebook -- another tap and you're chatting with them.
> 
> ...


Oh, and there's a GSM 3G version coming up 






http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/there-will-be-a-umts-palm-pre/

I've never seen such widespread enthusiasm for any Palm product, ever.


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

I'm liking the notifications screen showing appts, IM, calls and music player.






In fact the UI is so far in advance of my Centro it's hard to believe it's made by the same people.


















http://www.palm.com/us/products/phones/pre/index.html#tab2


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

From the Guardian:


> Palm's press conference at CES today achieved what most of us would have considered impossible a year ago: it created more interest than Apple's Macworld keynote. Hot topic of conversation on the interweb tubes right now is the Palm Pre smartphone, and its new webOS operating system.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/jan/08/palm-pre-ces


And PC Pro:





> Palm today announced what promises to be the product that finally matches and even betters the Apple iPhone, and certainly looks to be the most important product announced at this year's Consumer Electronics Show.
> 
> http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/244962/palm-announces-killer-phone.html



Gizmodo preview:


> Palm Pre Preview: Simply Amazing
> Hey, I just had some time to play with the Palm Pre, *maybe the most important handset to be announced in two years*, and here's what it was like to use it.
> 
> ...Positively frothing review follows: http://i.gizmodo.com/5126702/palm-pre-preview-simply-amazing


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## Sunray (Jan 9, 2009)

I await price and availability of the 3G version.

How much do people think?  I wonder if they will be carrier only or generally available contract free for reasonable money.  I reckon 299 is probably going to be the contract free one.  More and its starting to get expensive.  349? 399?  Hmmmm...


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## Sunray (Jan 9, 2009)

Those videos on Engadet make it ever more compelling.

Great phone.


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Those videos on Engadet make it ever more compelling.
> 
> Great phone.


I have to say that I really didn't think they could deliver something of such high quality and obvious innovation. 

Well done Palm!


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## Xanadu (Jan 9, 2009)

Wow, impressive!  Hope this is available soon!


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## Sunray (Jan 9, 2009)

Thats the only problem I can see. Thats the US model.  3G is in the works but no timings and pricing. 

No point winning everyone over with the phone if you can't buy it for ages.


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Palm has traditionally been hugely more popular in the States than Europe, so it's not surprising that they're going for the home market, but we'd best get this phone soon seeing as I'm now so stoked up over it!

I'll hassle their PR dept tomorrow.


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

It's a whole load smaller than an iPhone - and there's a full QWERTY keyboard onboard (plus removable battery, MMS, 3MP cam with flash etc)!


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## The Groke (Jan 9, 2009)

Anything said about Exchange mail functionality?

If it can do that, then it is certainly on the "potentials" list for my next phone purchase!

Looks really promising - well done Palm.


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## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Just stating fact.



Nah, he meant plural's don't require apostrophe's



Kid_Eternity said:


> The first version of the iPhone was announced six months before anyone could buy it.



Absolutely. Due to FCC approvals, it's impossible to keep a new phone under wraps in the US. You have to announce 6 months ahead, or people will find out anyway.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 9, 2009)

Sunray said:


> How much do people think?  I wonder if they will be carrier only or generally available contract free for reasonable money.  I reckon 299 is probably going to be the contract free one.  More and its starting to get expensive.  349? 399?  Hmmmm...



I think that will make a huge difference to how popular it gets. 

Looks nice, good to see another player.


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## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

Had a chance to watch the UI demos over breakfast. I'm very impressed. Everything looks slick, powerful and simple. Like Sunray says, this is the first thing I've seen that out-apples the iphone (sorry android, you're just too inconsistent)


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Had a chance to watch the UI demos over breakfast. I'm very impressed. Everything looks slick, powerful and simple. Like Sunray says, this is the first thing I've seen that out-apples the iphone (sorry android, you're just too inconsistent)


It's really very impressive. Amazing that they kept it all under wraps before the launch too seeing how advanced the phone and OS is.


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## Lazy Llama (Jan 9, 2009)

It looks very nice indeed.

Reality checks:

No removable storage (which some people held against the iPhone)
No front-facing camera (  )
Inductive charging (Wikipedia says "Inductive charging generally charges too slowly and generates too much heat for most portable electronics")
You have to take the charger or spare batteries with you everywhere because you can't charge via USB (AFAIK)
Battery life? And what would that be with 3G?
No release date, and Palm have already slipped this thing multiple times. I wouldn't expect a 3G version in the UK much before September.
Price?

Anyone tried wiping a hard drive with their inductive charger yet?


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## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

Indeed. Shame there's no backwards compatability, but trad palm apps would stand out a mile in that UI 

Also, not so enthused about the 'all in the cloud' sync model 

LL: USB charging is a yes, AFAIK

Extending the touch sensor all the way off the screen is a atroke (haha!) of genius, IMO. When there's nothing for your finger to hide, you don't have to lift it off in the middle of contrlling something.


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## g force (Jan 9, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> It looks very nice indeed.
> 
> Reality checks:
> 
> No removable storage (which some people held against the iPhone)





Only one that's an "not buy" issue for me.....hmmm...suspect it might end up getting it and another reason I didn't get an iPhone.


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

The lack of a SD slot is a pain but a real, proper keyboard is a total win. The interface looks slicker than the iPhones and the spec sheet is right on the money. AFAIK, there's been no statement on whether older apps will work - some say they may work inside one of their onscreen 'cards.'

[FONT=verdana, arial][FONT=verdana, arial]




[/FONT][/FONT]
Here's a bit of info about the OS:


> [FONT=verdana, arial][FONT=verdana, arial]Palm intends for the vast majority of developers to take advantage of existing web-technologies to develop applications for webOS and the Palm Pre.
> 
> In essence, the SDK will involve a mix of web-standards combined with specific webOS calls for device functionality:[/FONT][/FONT]  [FONT=verdana, arial][FONT=verdana, arial]Palm WebOS applications are easy to write using Mojo, a new application framework based on the HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript standards that web developers already know and love. WebOS applications are installed and run directly on the device at native speed and have access to a wide range of device services.
> 
> ...


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## g force (Jan 9, 2009)

Yeah not a deal killer more of a "significant annoyance"  but christ...I wasn't expecting all of this. I'm genuinely excited and intrigued by it just as i'd given up on Palm ever pulling it out of the bag.

I'm hoping our IT team take a trail one on to compare against the current BB's we have. Although businesses in general are wed to RIM because they do what they need to do best.


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## Lazy Llama (Jan 9, 2009)

Crispy said:


> LL: USB charging is a yes, AFAIK


Ah yes, they list a car charger adapter with a USB socket in the accessories.

No sign of the Pre on the UK site.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Had a chance to watch the UI demos over breakfast. I'm very impressed. Everything looks slick, powerful and simple. Like Sunray says, this is the first thing I've seen that out-apples the iphone *(sorry android, you're just too inconsistent*)



Yep.



editor said:


> It's really very impressive. Amazing that they kept it all under wraps before the launch too seeing how advanced the phone and OS is.



Yep me too. In fact I'm actually astonished nothing has slipped out, perhaps Palm has been lucky in being uninteresting so no one saw the value in trying to leak? Either that or they have security measures other phone makers can only dream of! 

<ed: off topic material removed>


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## Piers Gibbon (Jan 9, 2009)

well..blimey o' reilly...this was unexpected

I think in some subtle morphic resonance way all our moaning somehow helped make this phone possible ;-)

it seriously could be an iphone beater for those of us who like a real keyboard..and cut 'n paste

but let's not forget Palms ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...after being jerked around by Palm too many times us Mac users need to SEE one of these synching nicely with our Address Book, Diary etc...

but hey..well done Palm!


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## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> but let's not forget Palms ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...after being jerked around by Palm too many times us Mac users need to SEE one of these synching nicely with our Address Book, Diary etc...


It won't
'Cloud' only, as far as we know so far


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## Piers Gibbon (Jan 9, 2009)

er...have to admit I'm a little hazy on this whole Cloud thing

 my .Mac/MobileMe account says it is all cloudy....so surely Missing Synch can help me synch everything up via that? Oh please someone tell me it will


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Crispy said:


> It won't
> 'Cloud' only, as far as we know so far


But the platform seems so open that a desktop app surely wouldn't be long in coming - especially considering Palm's user base?


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## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

oh, if you have .mac then you'll probably be ok


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## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

editor said:


> But the platform seems so open that a desktop app surely wouldn't be long in coming - especially considering Palm's user base?


We have no idea yet just how easy that'll be. and tbh, I'd much rather do my desktop synching with a 1st party product. Palm's old 'conduit' system was excellent because 3rd parties could plug into it. What we don't want to happen is a plethora of sync solutions from multiple providers that only support their own software...


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

<ed: off topic material removed>


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Crispy said:


> We have no idea yet just how easy that'll be. and tbh, I'd much rather do my desktop synching with a 1st party product. Palm's old 'conduit' system was excellent because 3rd parties could plug into it. What we don't want to happen is a plethora of sync solutions from multiple providers that only support their own software...


Hmmm. Most people rate the third party 'Missing Sync' as a superb piece of software and I'd imagine they'd be quick to get invovled with Palm's new device.


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## Piers Gibbon (Jan 9, 2009)

yeah I'm impressed with Missing Sync


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## Lazy Llama (Jan 9, 2009)

I would think that rather than create a desktop app, they're get people to sync their desktops to the cloud and then sync the portable device to the cloud too. Just as .Mac/MobileMe does at the moment.

That means that Palm only have to sync with the cloud, and it's down to the desktop software people to sync the desktop apps to the cloud. It removes the chicken/egg situation of "why should I add Palm Pre sync to my calendar program when there are no users" , as there's plenty of demand to sync to Google Calendar/Mail already.


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## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

Missing sync is great, but it only does what it does. If you have a piece of software on the Palm that needs to sync information with the computer, it has to be through a conduit.

I have no doubt that missing sync or something similar will appear for the Pre, but it will sync what it wants to sync and won't be a universal solution. The same problem exists with the iphone. If itunes wants to sync it, it will and very well too. But there's no default way of synching custom info. As a result, the methods for synching 3rd party apps are numerous and varied, with no consistent interface.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

<ed: off topic material removed>


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

Crispy said:


> It won't
> 'Cloud' only, as far as we know so far



I'm not sure, it says it does Outlook syncing, surely that implies some kind of desktop syncing at some point?

I'm getting more and more interested in this phone, going to stick with my Centro (and 20 quid deal with O2 natch!) until it's clear what the state of play is with this and Android. 

Probably another six months before buying a new phone then...


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## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

Nah, it'll be outlook over the air too, just like the iphone.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 9, 2009)

Provided its easy to keep a backup of your contacts on your own PC, which can easily be intergrated into my mail program, I don't really mind if you do it through bluetooth, a cable or through the cloud.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Nah, it'll be outlook over the air too, just like the iphone.



Ah right. Well I'm sure they'll sort it somehow. It's not an issue for me as I've my contacts uploaded to my Google account now (in prep for possibly getting an Android powered phone) so this would just draw them from that. 

I really love the way when you look at a contact with the new os/phone you see their details including whether they're online or not via various chat software and facebook. Very useful and cool!


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> If you don't want to be treated like a cunt, don't act like one. Simple.


OK. This is now an official warning.  Stop this harassment please.


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## chilango (Jan 9, 2009)

Slight derail, but anyone know a good site for getting old palm os freeware.

I-ve dug my old clie out and fancy using it as a pda.


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

chilango said:


> Slight derail, but anyone know a good site for getting old palm os freeware.
> 
> I-ve dug my old clie out and fancy using it as a pda.


There's loads, but here's some to get you started:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/8436/must-have-treo-freeware-applications/
http://software.palminfocenter.com/homeSoftware.asp?sSection=true&section=free
http://www.freewarepalm.com/
http://forum.treonauts.com/palm-os-...eeware/138-best-free-software-palm-treos.html

...and one from me:
http://www.urban75.org/tech/palm-freeware.html


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Laptop Mag have given it a hands on:



> We had a brief chance today to go hands-on with the freshly announced Palm Pre, a touchscreen device with a full slide-out QWERTY keyboard, and we’re super impressed with what we’ve seen from Palm both in terms of the brand new OS and the hardware.
> 
> Its “card” user interface is beautifully executed. You can launch multiple windows–Palm says there isn’t a limit right now–and flip through them with ease. When you’re done interacting with one card, a simple swipe across the device’s soft and efficient touch screen closes the associated application...
> 
> ...


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## chilango (Jan 9, 2009)

editor said:


> There's loads, but here's some to get you started:
> http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/8436/must-have-treo-freeware-applications/
> http://software.palminfocenter.com/homeSoftware.asp?sSection=true&section=free
> http://www.freewarepalm.com/
> ...



Cheers ed.


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## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

I just realised the interface for multiple browser windows on the iphone is  just like Cards, but palm does it so much better.


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I just realised the interface for multiple browser windows on the iphone is  just like Cards, but palm does it so much better.


The way it handles messaging is superb:


> It's not just one or two "killer" features, or the phone's overall size, or even the way the handset gently curves so that it fits snugly against your ear while placing the microphone right near your lips. It's the entire package. From the hardware to the software and everything in between it's almost as if the people at Palm studied every smart phone on the market and improved upon every single one of them.
> 
> The new operating system, called the Palm webOS, seems to be able to integrate everything you use in a smart phone seamlessly. From email (Microsoft Outlook, POP3, IMAP, Gmail, Yahoo, AOL) to instant messaging, to Wi-Fi, GPS and EV-DO 3G connectivity, to eight gigabytes of built-in storage, to the replaceable battery, to calendars and contacts, to the way your fingers slide from one application to another, and slide them off the screen when you're done with them, the Pre brings a new sense of oneness to Palm's small, portable, personal cell phone/computer.
> 
> ...


Awesome!


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

There's four videos here from the presentation. I'm sold!

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/244962/palm-announces-killer-phone.html


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## Lazy Llama (Jan 9, 2009)

> The biggest unknown is price, which went unmentioned during the demo. My assumption is that Palm would try to take market share by coming in significantly lower than the $200 or so Apple wants for its iPhone. But when I ran that theory by Palm CEO Ed Colligan, he looked at me liked I’d peed on his rug. “Why would we do that when we have a significantly better product,” he asked, then walked away.
> 
> Translation: Bargain hunters are going to be disappointed.


http://mediamemo.allthingsd.com/20090108/live-from-ces-palm-unveils-nova/


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> http://mediamemo.allthingsd.com/20090108/live-from-ces-palm-unveils-nova/


It's a top of the range phone offering unrivalled, class-leading performance, so I didn't really expect them to knock it out cheap.

But price is vital though: too high and they'll blow it, even if it does look like a glorious handset.

They've also got to get it out sharpish because there'll be 'nuff manufacturers already working on pinching their ideas.


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## g force (Jan 9, 2009)

Yep....people will pay a slight premium for a better phone but only to a point. If it's $250 or above (approx 20% premium) they might be okay if it marketed right, if it's nearer $300 it's gonna fail IMO esp as you say I bet Apple will start nicking ideas and the Android team gets more handsets available.


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## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

Well, the iphone is down to 100 on a sensible contract (free on the pricey ones) so I'd expect something similar.


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## g force (Jan 9, 2009)

Wonder if it will be offered as a carrier exclusive at launch or across all of them? 02 has the iPhone, T-Mobile has the G1, Vodafone seems to be heavily pushing BlackBerry...


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## Crispy (Jan 9, 2009)

Looks like the future's bright then......


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Well, the iphone is down to 100 on a sensible contract (free on the pricey ones) so I'd expect something similar.


Yes, but it didn't launch at that price.

Phones always start off more expensive to grab revenue from early adopters, rabid fanboys and the must-have-it-now crowd.*

(*I fear I'm in the latter category for this device).


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## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Good video interview here:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UjQ4v2QEZUI
Walkthrough:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JRnlzbuLRwM


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

Waiting for the price to drop isn't really a bad thing, gives more time for software bugs to be ironed out, decent apps to be created etc...


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## Xanadu (Jan 9, 2009)

Hmmm, response from the touch screen could be better - hope they sort they out before release.


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## Lazy Llama (Jan 9, 2009)

> "The pre will indeed be available in H2 [2nd half] within the UK and selected European markets," Paul Ghent, vice president of sales for Palm Europe said. The official response from Palm Europe accompanies news that there is a WCDMA version of the Pre in the works for regions outside the U.S.


http://www.mobileburn.com/news.jsp?Id=6011

So it's going to be at least 6 months before you'll be able to get one in the UK.

It won't record video, but Palm may add that later.
The Palm App Store will only host Palm-approved apps, but they say that's to ensure security and stability. 
No idea whether there will be any other way of getting apps onto it, given the no-desktop-sync and no removable media decisions.


----------



## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> http://www.mobileburn.com/news.jsp?Id=6011
> 
> So it's going to be at least 6 months before you'll be able to get one in the UK.


That's a long wait alright - if it is indeed 6 months -  but do-able for me for something as good as the Pre. 

Of course other phones might catch up in the meantime and I may be tempted, but right now it looks streets ahead of the WM and Android offerings, and even usurps the mighty iPhone  (and without the Apple control freakery too!).

Be interesting to see what app developers come up with for the Palm from now on.


----------



## paolo (Jan 9, 2009)

On pricing, an officially unlocked 8gb iPhone is about 500 quid. If this comes out at 300, it's excellent value, and still not bad at 400.

And obviously there'll be the usual lock in deals to hide the handset cost, so it could easily be 'free' on tarriffs similar to iPhone ones that have £100 upfront.

All in all, I can't see price being an issue, unless the unlocked cost is north of the iPhone.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 9, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> All in all, I can't see price being an issue, unless the unlocked cost is north of the iPhone.


From what  Ed Colligan said, I would assume that this is going to cost more than an equivalent iPhone, whether locked, unlocked or dressed in shiny black leather. I would imagine they'll be looking for an Apple/G1-style exclusive tie-up with a UK operator to get lots of cash in early.

Plenty of time to save up though, anywhere between 6 and 11 months would be within the scope of H2'09


----------



## paolo (Jan 9, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> From what  Ed Colligan said, I would assume that this is going to cost more than an equivalent iPhone, whether locked, unlocked or dressed in shiny black leather. I would imagine they'll be looking for an Apple/G1-style exclusive tie-up with a UK operator to get lots of cash in early.
> 
> Plenty of time to save up though, anywhere between 6 and 11 months would be within the scope of H2'09



Interesting - do you happen to have a link for the Ed Colligan thing? (Me being lazy  )


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> http://www.mobileburn.com/news.jsp?Id=6011
> 
> So it's going to be at least 6 months before you'll be able to get one in the UK.
> 
> ...



What's the deal without it not being able to record video? 



Lazy Llama said:


> From what  Ed Colligan said, I would assume that this is going to cost more than an equivalent iPhone, whether locked, unlocked or dressed in shiny black leather. I would imagine they'll be looking for an Apple/G1-style exclusive tie-up with a UK operator to get lots of cash in early.
> 
> Plenty of time to save up though, anywhere between 6 and 11 months would be within the scope of H2'09



So...Vodafone after getting their hands burnt on the BB Storm might be a possible exclusive carrier? O2 have iPhone, Orange the Touch HD, T Mobile the G1. If not Vodafone then *shudder* 3?


----------



## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Plenty of time to save up though, anywhere between 6 and 11 months would be within the scope of H2'09


Would I be correct in guessing that you're not that impressed with the Palm?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

Very impressive speed at which the Pre switches view depending on which way up it is. Oh yeah how do you pronounce Pre is it like prey/pray, pree/free/ or fly/die?


----------



## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Waheeey! We're getting the Pre in the first half of 2009 after all.



> *Palm CEO says Europe gets Pre in the first half, too*
> 
> According to the press materials, Palm hadn't intended to announce a timeframe for the 3G GSM version of the Pre this week, but Ed Colligan can pretty much do and say whatever he pleases -- it's one of the perks of wearing the CEO hat -- and he's apparently mentioned in an interview with IDG that it'll roll out in the first half of 2009
> 
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/156767/palms_pre_is_coming_to_europe_says_ceo.html


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

Yep LL already posted this:



Lazy Llama said:


> http://www.mobileburn.com/news.jsp?Id=6011
> 
> So it's going to be at least 6 months before you'll be able to get one in the UK.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yep LL already posted this:


He actually said: _"Plenty of time to save up though, anywhere between* 6 and 11 months would be within the scope of H2'09* ".
_
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8578407&postcount=73

My link says it's coming in Q1, not Q2.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 9, 2009)

editor said:


> Would I be correct in guessing that you're not that impressed with the Palm?


I'm very impressed, it looks very nice, as I've posted in the other now-closed thread, but I know that reality doesn't always match expectation/launch demos and I think lots of people are getting a little over-excited. 

Anyone would think it was an Apple product


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 9, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Interesting - do you happen to have a link for the Ed Colligan thing? (Me being lazy  )


There's a link on this post http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8578170&postcount=70


----------



## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> I'm very impressed, it looks very nice, as I've posted in the other now-closed thread, but I know that reality doesn't always match expectation/launch demos and I think lots of people are getting a little over-excited.
> 
> Anyone would think it was an Apple product


Compared to the wild hyperbole around the iPhone launches, this is pretty tame stuff indeed, but for a phone to get this level of interest and excitement after the iPhone has already hit the scene is very impressive indeed - especially from a company most people thought were dead and buried.

(*apart from Sunray before he reminds us    )


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 9, 2009)

editor said:


> He actually said: _"Plenty of time to save up though, anywhere between* 6 and 11 months would be within the scope of H2'09* ".
> _
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8578407&postcount=73
> 
> My link says it's coming in Q1, not Q2.


One quote from the CEO, one from the vice president of sales for Palm Europe.
We can live in hope...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> I'm very impressed, it looks very nice, as I've posted in the other now-closed thread, but I know that reality doesn't always match expectation/launch demos and I think lots of people are getting a little over-excited.
> 
> Anyone would think it was an Apple product



Yep, I'm definitly interested but I'm not going to be spouting any lines about getting this asap, I want to see how it pans out a bit first. This year looks like it's going to be a turning point for the smartphone market.


----------



## editor (Jan 9, 2009)

A mighty 25 min hands on video of the Pre:
http://treocentral.com/content/Stories/2322-1.htm

There's an impressive attention to design detail going on.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2009)

Watching that now, very interesting. 

Something that's just occurred to me is security. With all your contacts/calendars etc all pulled together on the Pre can you imagine losing the phone? It'd be a mine of personal data to exploit all conveniently in one place...


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 10, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Watching that now, very interesting.
> 
> Something that's just occurred to me is security. With all your contacts/calendars etc all pulled together on the Pre can you imagine losing the phone? It'd be a mine of personal data to exploit all conveniently in one place...


Same as any phone really though, right?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2009)

To a degree but this one pulls more info together than any of the others. One of its greatest innovations could present a security risk just as innovative!


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Jan 10, 2009)

Xanadu said:


> Same as any phone really though, right?



my last phone had a kill switch which was activeated the moment i knew it was gone wiping everything from the phone and SD's all phones should have this as default imo


----------



## Sunray (Jan 10, 2009)

I was listening to the Engadget pod cast, which is as interesting as is annoying.  They were suggesting that the phone's software is alpha status, which is why Palm were coy when asked about the soft keyboard for landscape entry.

It might be a feature but its not written yet.


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2009)

I imagine Palm had to let it out of the bag because their shares were collapsing. If it is an alpha version it's looking pretty damn fine so far:


> The UI is incredibly well thought out and smooth. Animations going in and out of apps, and all of the menus and switching are done with a grace and simplicity that we rarely see on any device. The UI outclasses most of its competition on a number of levels, and actually may be quite a bit more revolutionary than the iPhone. Multitasking works like a charm, and reps say you can push it quite hard before you'll need to close applications. One of the most fascinating components of the UI is that when you're zoomed out to cards, the data is still active in the previews.


http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/palm-pre-in-depth-impressions-video-and-huge-hands-on-gallery/

Here's the specs known so far:


> High-speed wireless (EV-DO Rev. A or HSDPA, depending on version)
> 802.11b / g WiFi
> Integrated GPS
> 3.1-inch 24-bit color 480 x 320 display
> ...


Interface tour:
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/01/09/palm-pre-interface-tour/


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2009)

It doesn't mean a great deal of course, but this US tech show is absolutely frothing about the Pre, with the presenters saying they'll be ditching their iPhones as soon as the new Palm comes out. Like I said, it means nothing, but it at least shows that there's something of a real hype and buzz already starting up over the handset in the States.


http://www.g4tv.com/ces2009/videos/35959/CES_09_iPhone_Challengers.html


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 10, 2009)

<ed: pointless off topic shit removed>


----------



## Sunray (Jan 10, 2009)

Amazing quality for Alpha.  

The only issue for Palm is getting it out the door, the sooner the better but I think they have at least 6 months grace.  That final hurdle is easily the hardest. Esp as the pressure is now well and truly on from every single angle you can think of, share holders, Sprint network, Senior management, users and their dogs.


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> <ed: pointless off topic shit removed>


Stop this now, please.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 10, 2009)

Sunray said:


> The only issue for Palm is getting it out the door, the sooner the better but I think they have at least 6 months grace.  That final hurdle is easily the hardest. Esp as the pressure is now well and truly on from every single angle you can think of, share holders, Sprint network, Senior management, users and their dogs.



They're in a head to head race with Android now I guess. If Palm can get this out (and it's as good as it looks) before Google have got a few more handsets out then they're gonna sell shitloads. 

But if a lot of decent Android handsets come out in the next 6 months, and Palm have a delay, then I imagine a lot of their potential customers aren't going to wait and Palm could end up with an expensive flop on their hands.


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2009)

Unless Palm spectacularly screw up the rollout of the phone or come up with a bonkers price, I can't see it flopping.

It's got the kind of wow factor the iPhone created at its launch, and when it comes to functionality and interface, it's about as good as it gets.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 10, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> They're in a head to head race with Android now I guess. If Palm can get this out (and it's as good as it looks) before Google have got a few more handsets out then they're gonna sell shitloads.
> 
> But if a lot of decent Android handsets come out in the next 6 months, and Palm have a delay, then I imagine a lot of their potential customers aren't going to wait and Palm could end up with an expensive flop on their hands.



Personally, its twatted Android, its making the iPhone look seriously jaded, which I didn't think I say for at least a year or more.  

Its got loads and loads of genuine innovation in the hardware and the software.  The gesture bar at the bottom is quite a brilliant addition.  The light glows when you use it.

All the new phones that are of this ilk are now going to be judged by the Palm Pre when its released, its that ground breaking.  An Android phone had a task on its hands competing with the iPhone, but it was doing a reasonable job, I personally don't think the 1st version was as good but its not so bad.   With the Pre the competition has moved onto another level, its going to be interesting to see how Apple and Google compete or if they pretend it doesn't exist.

But like I said in that post, it has to be available to buy before any of the above becomes reality.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2009)

editor said:


> It doesn't mean a great deal of course, but this US tech show is absolutely frothing about the Pre, with the presenters saying they'll be ditching their iPhones as soon as the new Palm comes out. Like I said, it means nothing, but it at least shows that there's something of a real hype and buzz already starting up over the handset in the States.
> 
> 
> http://www.g4tv.com/ces2009/videos/35959/CES_09_iPhone_Challengers.html



I'd disagree I think it means a great deal (not least because I've read similiar comments) and should worry Apple. That kind of momentum (or herde mentality) will be crucial in getting this to have a good launch which in turn ups the chances of success. They need to create the perception they're the hot new thing town...

Must say its a fucking great year for smartphone users, so much choice!


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jan 10, 2009)

ok...just to stop me wanting to get the Pre yesterday..is it missing anything?

for me:

- synch guarantee with Mac
- a Life Balance conduit

er

that's it

damn..so I'm likely to be ditching the perfectly good Centro and overpaying for this when it comes out in the UK...I hate that


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 10, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Must say its a fucking great year for smartphone users, so much choice!



Indeed, I keep holding of, because something new always seems to be around the corner. Almost got a Touch HD over xmas, but couldn't quite bring myself to sign up for 18/24 months when we're going to see some very cool kit in the next 6. I haven't been this interested in the phone market for years!


----------



## Sunray (Jan 10, 2009)

None of the smart phones I've seen does video calling.  How dead is that technology.  I think it'll be revived when they really start to run out of idea on how to compete.

Remember that HP ad when they were up a mountain video calling their mates.  

Never going to happen, but everything else you can do and nothing to do with HP.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Indeed, I keep holding of, because something new always seems to be around the corner. Almost got a Touch HD over xmas, but couldn't quite bring myself to sign up for 18/24 months when we're going to see some very cool kit in the next 6. I haven't been this interested in the phone market for years!



I know what you mean, I'm glad I held off. Gonna see where we are in June/July (assuming my Centro keeps working) before taking the jump.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Amazing quality for Alpha.
> 
> The only issue for Palm is getting it out the door, the sooner the better but I think they have at least 6 months grace.  That final hurdle is easily the hardest. Esp as the pressure is now well and truly on from every single angle you can think of, share holders, Sprint network, Senior management, users and their dogs.



Yep for an alpha it's pretty amazing.



beesonthewhatnow said:


> They're in a head to head race with Android now I guess. If Palm can get this out (and it's as good as it looks) before Google have got a few more handsets out then they're gonna sell shitloads.
> 
> But if a lot of decent Android handsets come out in the next 6 months, and Palm have a delay, then I imagine a lot of their potential customers aren't going to wait and Palm could end up with an expensive flop on their hands.



Agree about the grace period of 6 months, people have been waiting for sometime with Palm many fans had lost patience, they can't fuck up now.



editor said:


> Unless Palm spectacularly screw up the rollout of the phone or come up with a bonkers price, I can't see it flopping.
> 
> It's got the kind of wow factor the iPhone created at its launch, and when it comes to functionality and interface, it's about as good as it gets.



Yep, it's got the buzz, be interesting to see how Google and Apple (amongst others) respond.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 10, 2009)

Sunray said:


> None of the smart phones I've seen does video calling.  How dead is that technology.  I think it'll be revived when they really start to run out of idea on how to compete.
> 
> Remember that HP ad when they were up a mountain video calling their mates.
> 
> Never going to happen, but everything else you can do and nothing to do with HP.



Funny how it was predicted by sci fi writers for years, but when we get it we can't be bothered with it. I had 3 phones with it on, in that time I only made about 5 calls with it for the novelty value and that was just because I had free mins.

Want something to set phones apart? I think they should do "tough" models, bit heavier, but rubber casing and thick screen protectors.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Funny how it was predicted by sci fi writers for years, but when we get it we can't be bothered with it. I had 3 phones with it on, in that time I only made about 5 calls with it for the novelty value and that was just because I had free mins.
> 
> Want something to set phones apart? I think they should do "tough" models, bit heavier, but rubber casing and thick screen protectors.



I tried it when I first got the n73, mainly to call my little niece who thought it was amazing she could see her uncle on the phone, but it was too expensive and crap quality. 

If the quality had been better and you could use your free minutes (maybe a 4=1 conversion) then perhaps I'd used it more...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 10, 2009)

The only person I know that regularly uses video calling is a colleague who is away from home an awful lot on tours, and uses it so his little girl can see her dad every night.

His bills are fucking horrendous though


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The only person I know that regularly uses video calling is a colleague who is away from home an awful lot on tours, and uses it so his little girl can see her dad every night.
> 
> His bills are fucking horrendous though



I imagine with a decent size screen it could be useful for deaf people...


----------



## cybertect (Jan 10, 2009)

I only just caught up with this news.

Er. 

Wow. 

The first Palm I've wanted since I wangled purchasing a Treo 270 from my local O2 store the day before it was officially available in the UK because I was off to the US for two weeks after that.

e2a: The 'cards' interface concept echoes some of Jef Raskin's ideas. This is a good thing.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 10, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Funny how it was predicted by sci fi writers for years, but when we get it we can't be bothered with it. I had 3 phones with it on, in that time I only made about 5 calls with it for the novelty value and that was just because I had free mins.
> 
> Want something to set phones apart? I think they should do "tough" models, bit heavier, but rubber casing and thick screen protectors.



http://www.mphone.co.uk/rugged_tough_phone.html

Not smart phones, but aimed at the outdoor worker like builders,  engineering and squat party goers esp that XP3 when its esp squat juicy.

Cant imagine a iPhone being too useful to someone installing new track on the underground?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2009)

It's a decent size too:


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2009)

Engadget has just done a piece on the wireless charger. The fact that even the phone's _charger_ has managed to pack in real innovation and attract interest speaks volumes of  Palm's design.










http://www.engadget.com/photos/palm-pre-touchstone-eyes-on-2/1274574/


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 10, 2009)

A wireless charger is almost off the scale on my "meh-ometer", but each to their own I guess


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jan 10, 2009)

I wonder whether the wirelessness of the charger will catch on with other manufacturers...be nice if you could recharge all phones by just leaving them on a cafe table frinstance

or would that fry your elbows as well?


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> A wireless charger is almost off the scale on my "meh-ometer", but each to their own I guess


Surely, it's got to be a bit more 2009 to just slap yer phone onto a funky cordless mat t'ing rather than fiddle about shoving in Ye Olde cables, no?

Cables are, like, sooooooo 2008, man.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> A wireless charger is almost off the scale on my "meh-ometer", but each to their own I guess



I quite like it, the 'puck' as apparently it's known...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 10, 2009)

editor said:


> Surely, it's got to be a bit more 2009 to just slap yer phone onto a funky cordless mat t'ing rather than fiddle about shoving in Ye Olde cables, no?
> 
> Cables are, like, sooooooo 2008, man.



I'm so behind the times


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 10, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> I wonder whether the wirelessness of the charger will catch on with other manufacturers...be nice if you could recharge all phones by just leaving them on a cafe table frinstance
> 
> or would that fry your elbows as well?



How long before stuff like that appears on the Jazzz-ometer?


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 10, 2009)

So the Touchstone charger is an optional accessory rather than coming with the phone.

And the Palm site says "Requires Palm Pre back cover for Touchstone charging dock, sold separately."

Does that mean you have to buy the Touchstone and then buy a new back for your phone so that you can use the charger?

"Charges device in approximately four hours"


----------



## editor (Jan 10, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> And the Palm site says "Requires Palm Pre back cover for Touchstone charging dock, sold separately."
> 
> Does that mean you have to buy the Touchstone and then buy a new back for your phone so that you can use the charger?


I'd imagine they'd come bundled together. Palm have said that it's not going to be that expensive, but it is an interesting development that helps crank up the 'wow' factor of the phone. 

The integrated address book is 100% win too. What a brilliant idea.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 10, 2009)

editor said:


> I'd imagine they'd come bundled together.


The page for the charger (http://www.palm.com/us/products/accessories/dock.html#tab2) says the back is sold separately. I would guess that's so you can have one charger and multiple phones. 

I assume the back is too expensive to bundle with every phone.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 11, 2009)

Pricing has been announced:



> Palm Europe VP of Sales, Mr. Paul Ghent has confirmed the unlocked Palm Pre will cost $500-$550 in Europe while Sprint customers will get it for $399.



How much will it be in the UK unlocked? £500? £450? £400?


----------



## Sunray (Jan 11, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Pricing has been announced:
> 
> 
> 
> How much will it be in the UK unlocked? £500? £450? £400?



Currently 500usd is 330gbp, so perhaps 399 inc vat unlocked, which is a fair price.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 11, 2009)

It would make it cheaper then the iphone and touch hd, which would have to be an advantage.


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2009)

As a pointer, the Centro is currently $299 unlocked from Palm's US website while the Centro is priced at £146 in the UK (direct link from Palm's website to Amazon).

The Palm Pre is now featured on the UK website too:
http://www.palm.com/uk/en/products/smartphones/pre/


----------



## kropotkin (Jan 11, 2009)

I want it.
I'm going to get it.

Well done palm. Shame about the screen reolution- apparently the same screen type as the Tx, just a little smaller.
Is the "microSD" section of the features list a microsd slot?


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2009)

kropotkin said:


> I want it.
> I'm going to get it.
> 
> Well done palm. Shame about the screen reolution- apparently the same screen type as the Tx, just a little smaller.
> Is the "microSD" section of the features list a microsd slot?


No SD card slot sadly, but you can hook it directly up to your PC and drag and drop files over.

I reckon the screen res is just fine for the device - don't forget it's physically smaller than an iPhone yet packs as many pixels - and that gesture area at the bottom will make it a lot easier to use.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 11, 2009)

8Gb is one of the flaws and I don't think it takes any external memory?  Not for apps, but for music and video.  I've got over 8Gb music on my iPhone, which is why I got the 16Gb iPhone.  Its not like flash ram is horrendously expensive.  I can see bigger versions appearing in time.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 11, 2009)

It seems such an obvious thing to miss of! Flash memory keeps getting cheaper, so it won't be long till we can pick up 32gb for peanuts. If your taking a phone on a 18 month contract, its a bit limiting.


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> It seems such an obvious thing to miss of! Flash memory keeps getting cheaper, so it won't be long till we can pick up 32gb for peanuts. If your taking a phone on a 18 month contract, its a bit limiting.


More memory would have been good, and the lack of an SD card is a serious omission but I guess compromises had to be made and the entire package of the phone still looks better than anything else out there.

I reckon 8GB will be OK for me at least for a while - I've been using a 4GB card in my Centro and it's nowhere near full (I never watch movies and there's hundreds of tunes stored on there). 

No doubt they'll be offering larger capacity phones in the future too.


----------



## kropotkin (Jan 11, 2009)

A very odd omission. Hardly takes up any space- could have gone next to the SIM. Doesn't add much in terms of cost. Weird.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 11, 2009)

The lack of micro sd card doesn't bother me, i'll just buy another iPod in the meantime until they release a higher capacity version...


----------



## Sunray (Jan 11, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> The lack of micro sd card doesn't bother me, i'll just buy another iPod in the meantime until they release a higher capacity version...



Not having to cart two devices is the number one reason I bought an iPhone.  My iPod mini now languishes at the bottom of a draw somewhere.

I was looking at the demo of the music player on it, its very slow, presumably because its pre production, but it needs to be of iPod quality. It looks passable, but the combination of the memory size and OK player means it not the phone for me right now because those things are the sole reason I own the phone I do (and put up with its foibles)


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I was looking at the demo of the music player on it, its very slow. It looks passable, so its not the phone for me right now because that is the reason I own the phone I do.


Well, you are looking at an alpha version of the phone, and I'd very surprised if the final player isn't vastly improved on.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 11, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Not having to cart two devices is the number one reason I bought an iPhone.  My iPod mini now languishes at the bottom of a draw somewhere.



Yeah I'm all for convergence too, but I already carry around an iPod and a Centro so continuing to do that wont be that big a hassle. Real convergence to the level I'd like is still a little way off so I'll just have to wait.


----------



## paolo (Jan 11, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Not having to cart two devices is the number one reason I bought an iPhone.  My iPod mini now languishes at the bottom of a draw somewhere.
> 
> I was looking at the demo of the music player on it, its very slow, presumably because its pre production, but it needs to be of iPod quality. It looks passable, but the combination of the memory size and OK player means it not the phone for me right now because those things are the sole reason I own the phone I do (and put up with its foibles)



On a similar tip, I'm curious to see how easy it will be to find and download media. I grab lots of podcasts from iTunes, and the range of content there and ease of access is great. Loads of BBC stuff, and the background download queue works really well, hoovering very large files up as and when it detects open WiFi.

In other areas webOS looks fantastic, but I do so much 'media stuff' with my iPhone, I'd be reluctant to give that up.


----------



## jayeola (Jan 11, 2009)

Hope at last for the solid, intuitive and reliable OS that is PALM. Thanks Ed for bumping into me and telling me about this F2F in RL. 

Guess who's going to be plugging this in the next hardware review meetings? over and over until we get them ;-)


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> On a similar tip, I'm curious to see how easy it will be to find and download media. I grab lots of podcasts from iTunes, and the range of content there and ease of access is great. Loads of BBC stuff, and the background download queue works really well, hoovering very large files up as and when it detects open WiFi.
> 
> In other areas webOS looks fantastic, but I do so much 'media stuff' with my iPhone, I'd be reluctant to give that up.


Seeing as the OS is written in HTML, CSS, JavaScript etc, it surely should be fairly simple for developers to knock out useful media apps.


----------



## paolo (Jan 11, 2009)

editor said:


> Seeing as the OS is written in HTML, CSS, JavaScript etc, it surely should be fairly simple for developers to knock out useful media apps.



That's the rendering & interface model, not what the OS is written in. That has little bearing on media functionality or content availability.


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> That's the rendering & interface model, not what the OS is written in. That has little bearing on media functionality or content availability.


You've lost me here. Someone could write an app that locates online media, podcasts, streaming radio stations etc etc., but if you're looking for an all-in-one service that then iPhone may be a better bet for now.

I read that the Palm will also provide over-the-air downloads from Amazon's MP3 service.

Here's an excellent preview of the new OS.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zaSw1r8U32M


----------



## paolo (Jan 11, 2009)

The tech stack of HTML/CSS/JS is what the apps use to render things to the display, and manage some (all?) aspects of user input.

The OS will be written in a conventional language (e.g C++).

Not that any of that necessarily affects the potential for someone to write a good media player. Early days.


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2009)

At least one developer is very excited by how Palm is advancing:





> Thursday Palm announced its next-generation foray into mobile computing with a one-two hardware/software punch at CES 2009. The company talked about its new mobile phone platform called prė that combines impressive hardware and a new operating system, called WebOS, that runs on the device. The name is appropriate; all the software running on the device is a combination of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.
> 
> Friday, Palm revealed a little more information about how developers will build applications on the phone, covering local storage and how messaging between applications and data stores will happen on the device:
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jan 12, 2009)

More details of the Palm webOS SDK:



> For starters, everything is tested and previewed in the web browser (our shots are of the Mac version, so Safari), which bodes well for Palm’s “anyone who knows how to program in Javascrizzy can write an application”, line. We’re told that even in Safari, apps work just like they would on the actual device, and much like the iPhone Simulator, just in the web browser.
> 
> This means scrolling and rubberband-man bouncing. Very cool and very sneaky. The SDK operates as a local server that serves up the web pages (applications), and you can hook into it from your local browser



Screengrabs galore: 
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/gallery/handsets/palm-webos-sdk/


----------



## Sunray (Jan 12, 2009)

I must point out that JavaScript is a horrible language to use to develop large applications.  If the web browser did one thing badly that is it and partly down to people at Microsoft.  Its caused developers to go back 10 years in code structure development.


----------



## editor (Jan 12, 2009)

There's rumours of a 'Centro2'  running webOS in the works, although it all seems a little early for a Feb 2009 release.


> While the timing of this latest Palm rumor is likely way off if the company’s history is to be considered, the subject matter seems fairly obvious: A WebOS-powered Centro-alike is in the works. Citing “a seemingly reliable firsthand source,” Palm Infocenter states that Palm will deliver a Centro 2 in Fall 2009.
> 
> The handset will maintain much of the current Centro’s styling and will also be headed to Sprint. While it is very difficult if not impossible to imagine Palm releasing two new handsets so closely to each other, could this be part of Palm’s new strategy as it positions itself for a comeback? Yeah, we think not.
> 
> ...


----------



## Crispy (Jan 12, 2009)

How are they going to fit it all into the small screen? The interface would have to compromised, or the phone would have to be larger...


----------



## editor (Jan 12, 2009)

I can see the point of a low cost webOS smartphone but as you say, I can't see how they'd pack all the UI goodness into something as small as the Centro's screen.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 12, 2009)

editor said:


> I can see the point of a low cost webOS smartphone but as you say, I can't see how they'd pack all the UI goodness into something as small as the Centro's screen.



Centro 2?


----------



## editor (Jan 12, 2009)

Good piece on Engadget about the Pam webOS:


> The announcement of a wild, revolutionary new mobile platform with potentially far-reaching implications for the industry (and our hearts) is bound to generate some twisted buzz and some outright fallacies in this minefield we call the interwebs, so we wanted to circle back, catch our breath, and do our part to help dispel some of the myths that are cropping up around webOS and the Pre.
> 
> *The Pre is not the only webOS-based device planned.*
> During the Pre's fanfare-packed intro, Palm CEO Ed Colligan mentioned that webOS would serve as Palm's platform "for the next decade." So unless the company plans to offer nothing but the Pre for the next 10 years (hint: they don't), there will be plenty of hardware variations from which to choose -- just like the Palm OS of old.
> ...


http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/01/12/palm-pre-and-webos-lies-damn-lies-and-statistics/


----------



## editor (Jan 12, 2009)

Palm's approach to contact management really sounds genius:





> Synergy has a feature called "linked contacts." It offers a single view that links contacts from the various e-mail and social-networking platforms you use. For example, if you have the same contact listed in your Outlook, Google and Facebook accounts, Synergy recognizes they're the same person, links the information, and presents it to you as one listing.
> 
> If you update a contact on your webOS device, it will also will be updated in your various accounts, whether on a personal computer or on the Web.
> Synergy also offers layered calendars. You can view events for work, family, friends, sports teams, or other interests in one view or see them individually at a glance.
> ...


And the pundits are impressed:





> According to Michael Gartenberg, vice president of mobile strategy at Jupitermedia, Synergy is the most interesting aspect of the Pre and it demonstrates Palm's understanding of what people want in a mobile platform: The ability to consolidate different information stores across the various parts of their lives -- business and personal.
> 
> "Synergy seems to do a pretty good job consolidating all of my contact information into one entry," Gartenberg said. "This idea of centrally synchronizing and organizing contact information in this way is kind of revolutionary, something that no one has done before. The key is good synchronization. If you control the synchronization of these data stores, in many ways you control the world."
> http://tech.yahoo.com/news/nf/20090112/tc_nf/64007


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 12, 2009)

I wonder if someone will create a similar calendar/addressbook app for Windows/Linux/OS X. 
Seems strange that no one has already done it.


----------



## editor (Jan 12, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> I wonder if someone will create a similar calendar/addressbook app for Windows/Linux/OS X.
> Seems strange that no one has already done it.


You can guarantee that Apple, Microsoft, Android, Uncle Tom Cobley and all will be busy trying to rip off the idea in double quick time, so Palm better get a move on.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 12, 2009)

editor said:


> You can guarantee that Apple, Microsoft, Android, Uncle Tom Cobley and all will be busy trying to rip off the idea in double quick time, so Palm better get a move on.



A fiver says there's an app on the Android marketplace within a couple of months


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 12, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> A fiver says there's an app on the Android marketplace within a couple of months



Heh yep.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 12, 2009)

editor said:


> You can guarantee that Apple, Microsoft, Android, Uncle Tom Cobley and all will be busy trying to rip off the idea in double quick time, so Palm better get a move on.



Palm have ripped the multi-touch capacitive screen from Apple.  They must be paying Apple for its use because Apple have a patent on that and it couldn't be clearer.

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...&RS=AN/Apple+AND+TTL/"Multipoint+touchscreen"

They patented the fuck out of some of the tech on the iPhone

The gestures like pinch zooming and that nice flick scrolling are also patented by Apple.

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...AND+TTL/Gestures&RS=AN/Apple+AND+TTL/Gestures

Again, unlike some patents, its pretty clear.

Take from this site 

http://www.unwiredview.com/2007/01/16/apples-iphone-is-it-really-well-protected-by-patents/

I wonder if Apple will actually go down the protectionist route, or introduce a better device or both?


----------



## editor (Jan 12, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Palm have ripped the multi-touch capacitive screen from Apple.  They must be paying Apple for its use because Apple have a patent on that and it couldn't be


Well, I don't think you can actually say that for sure without knowing more about the Palm or its technology - for all you (or me) know they might have patented something similar years ago - or maybe they are licensing it from Apple.

But there's nothing wrong with phones nicking ideas off each other - Apple swiped stuff like the threaded SMS and on/off ringer from Palm and I'm delighted to see Palm nicking great stuff from Apple. It's all good for the consumer in the end, isn't it?


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2009)

There's a very good full overview of the Palm Pre here:

http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2009/01/little-things-a.html

The phone also scooped three awards at CES, including the top 'Best of CES' award.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 13, 2009)

editor said:


> There's a very good full overview of the Palm Pre here:
> 
> http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2009/01/little-things-a.html



That's an excellent piece. Almost could be the basis for the wiki article...


----------



## Sunray (Jan 13, 2009)

editor said:


> Well, I don't think you can actually say that for sure without knowing more about the Palm or its technology - for all you (or me) know they might have patented something similar years ago - or maybe they are licensing it from Apple.
> 
> But there's nothing wrong with phones nicking ideas off each other - Apple swiped stuff like the threaded SMS and on/off ringer from Palm and I'm delighted to see Palm nicking great stuff from Apple. It's all good for the consumer in the end, isn't it?



Well, yes, but if you have an idea and want to make money from it, then surely you'd like to protect your idea from others if they are using it in direct competition to your own company.  If someone rips off Urban75.com your going to get a tad miffed.

I'm not going to get into a debate on the pro's and con's of intellectual property because there are pro's and con's, and thats not the point I was trying to make.

My point is more that Apple have a pretty serious legal team and aren't afraid to use it.  I would hope that Palm have sorted all the IP out with respect to the Pre because it is a great phone and I'd like to see it released and not get entangled into a bitter patent wrangle.  If that were to happen, it could kill off the Phone and potentially Palm with it.


----------



## paolo (Jan 13, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> A fiver says there's an app on the Android marketplace within a couple of months



I doubt it.

The key thing here is that it's an implementation of a core service. These things are incredibly difficult for a 3rd party developer to deliver or replace.

If it was 'real' open source, it would be more possible, but I've not seen any distro type thing going on for Android, and suspect in practical terms it's not actually open source in the same way Linux is.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 13, 2009)

editor said:


> Palm's approach to contact management really sounds genius:And the pundits are impressed:



The important part of this is how the APIs are organised.

If there's a public API to interact with this Palm Synergy, terrific, that's great. You can have whatever contact management system interacting with lots of others. Great stuff, two thumbs up.

If it's limited to whatever Palm choose, screw that. This is one of the things that I was thinking about when I said I was doubtful about systems which don't do desktop sync. The thing is, if a gadget syncs with whatever desktop you have, and other sites sync with the same desktop, you have blanket syncing, as long as they all work of course.


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2009)

Here's something I thought I'd never hear: Engadget declaring that "Palm stole the CES show" with their new phone!
http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/12/ces-2009-all-the-stuff-and-more/


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 13, 2009)

Sunray said:


> The gestures like pinch zooming and that nice flick scrolling are also patented by Apple.
> 
> http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...AND+TTL/Gestures&RS=AN/Apple+AND+TTL/Gestures
> 
> Again, unlike some patents, its pretty clear.



There's flick scrolling on Android as well, so I guess they could potentially have a moan at Google as well...


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> If there's a public API to interact with this Palm Synergy, terrific, that's great. You can have whatever contact management system interacting with lots of others. Great stuff, two thumbs up.
> 
> If it's limited to whatever Palm choose, screw that. This is one of the things that I was thinking about when I said I was doubtful about systems which don't do desktop sync. The thing is, if a gadget syncs with whatever desktop you have, and other sites sync with the same desktop, you have blanket syncing, as long as they all work of course.


Here's a comment from an Engadget user:





> I'm personally interested in this. Palm said they'd open all hardware access with their SDK and such, but even then I would be skeptical.
> 
> It's interesting to note Palm said all of their own applications bundled with the Pre were build in the same html/css/etc. framework. Though Palm has said on a few occasions there will be a special extended API for its partners to have better direct access to hardware. So I'm not quite sure what to think on the matter of potential future gaming and navigation on the Pre
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/13/palms-mojo-sdk-for-webos-in-pictures/


Nice debate on CNet too. Their reviewer thinks that the Pre will fail because it doesn't do iTunes-like desktop syncing, while just about everyone disagrees with him in the comments section.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13526_3-10141045-27.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20


----------



## Crispy (Jan 13, 2009)

Well it prevents me from buying one, for a start.


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Well it prevents me from buying one, for a start.


Really? Seeing as conforms to the USB mass storage standard, you'll still be able to do all the usual stuff with playlists and ratings with Windows Media, WinAmp etc, but not, I guess, with iTunes:


> There's very clearly two different schools of people when it comes to organizing and buying music. One depends on the iTunes library, and its database-esque provisions to pick out, sort and organize songs. The other is completely folder-based, there actually are software on this side to automate the sorting process too, if you so wish (e.g. automatically add numbers to the file name).
> 
> Whether you choose one or the other is a matter of personal preference. I've done both and because of the range of devices I own, I constantly do both at the same time. Even with an iPod, my PC library is NOT organized using iTunes; I use smart playlists a lot but all my files are device-only, copied from a location that's not the iTunes library.
> 
> ...





> This functionality isn't anything new - my creative zen does the same, I can sync it with wmp, creative software etc or... I can drag and drop media as I feel like.
> 
> So what you are reporting as a problem is actually a benefit - the user will be able to use music management software (itunes excluded of course) or drag and drop.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 13, 2009)

My computer is the central source of all my information and I want to sync (as in - have things automatically update when I plug it in) whatever data my 3rd party apps need to. The iphone does this a bit, but it's not extensible. The pre isn't going to do it at all? And rely on 'the cloud'? Big Fat No from me. I have my own shit on my own computer and do not want to trust the cloud.

Oh and btw, to sync itunes with a generic player - BadApple for windows and SyncTunes for OSX.


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2009)

Crispy said:


> The pre isn't going to do it at all? And rely on 'the cloud'?


I don't think anyone knows for sure yet, to be honest.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 13, 2009)

Well let's see then. Because that aside, this looks like a great phone


----------



## Sunray (Jan 13, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> There's flick scrolling on Android as well, so I guess they could potentially have a moan at Google as well...



Its looking like they are taking a very relaxed attitude, perhaps because they are number one new phone in the US. 

If a phone comes along and dethrones them I wonder if they will get the knives out.  

I know IBM have taken a lead on this saying they will not actively enforce some patents they hold and they are one of the world leaders for Tech patents.


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Its looking like they are taking a very relaxed attitude, perhaps because they are number one new phone in the US.


Apple never have a 'relaxed' attitude to protecting their property rights, even when their claim may perhaps be a little less than certain. Never. They're one of the most litigious tech companies on the planet.

If a competitor is using their patented technology without permission and payment, they will sue, as sure as night follows day.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 13, 2009)

editor said:


> Apple never have a 'relaxed' attitude to protecting their property rights, even when their claim may perhaps be a little less than certain. Never. They're one of the most litigious tech companies on the planet.
> 
> If a competitor is using their patented technology without permission and payment, they will sue, as sure as night follows day.



I wonder how watertight that patent is then, because Android has got the flick scroll thing pretty much down to the letter - a slow drag doesn't move much, a quick flick and whatever list you're on speeds by in the blink of an eye.  It's great, makes getting through big lists nice and easy, but it's a direct rip from Apple.


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I wonder how watertight that patent is then, because Android has got the flick scroll thing pretty much down to the letter - a slow drag doesn't move much, a quick flick and whatever list you're on speeds by in the blink of an eye.  It's great, makes getting through big lists nice and easy, but it's a direct rip from Apple.


The Picsel viewer on my 2004 Sony Clie is very similar: it lets me smoothly drag and flick objects and text around the screen, with a bigger flick resulting in it moving faster, and a slower flick moving the item slower.


----------



## paolo (Jan 13, 2009)

Accelerative pointer behaviour was part of the 1980s Macs. So that wins.


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Accelerative pointer behaviour was part of the 1980s Macs. So that wins.


Touchscreen?


----------



## paolo (Jan 13, 2009)

editor said:


> Touchscreen?



No of course not 

Actually - for kinetic UI behaviour - it's not such a good example. Better would be the experimental Motion Finder that Apple put out in the early 90s. No idea if those ideas were kicking around much earlier, e.g. at PARC.


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2009)

The Sony Picsel one is very, very close to the iPhones.


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2009)

Fucking hell. Engadget seem to have turned into total Palm fanboys all of a sudden. 

Here's a comprehensive 'Everything You Need To Know About The Pre' feature that's just gone up:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/13/palm-pre-everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know/


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 13, 2009)

> While we don't see it on any literature, Palm reps told us the device has a microSD slot in addition to the 8GB of on-board storage, thus potentially letting the Pre get loaded up with a whopping 24GB of data.





I thought it didn't have one?


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2009)

If it's got a SD slot then the win-o-meter has simply gone off the scale and this won't be an iPhone killa. It'll be a D3str0ya!


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 13, 2009)

It would seem a huge thing to leave out and can't cost much to add.

Roll on 32gb MicroSD...

35gb would be a good amount for a music collection, couldn't get my whole lot on, but most the stuff I might want to listen to whilst out and about.

All of this will be useless though if it doesn't have a headphone jack.


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> All of this will be useless though if it doesn't have a headphone jack.


It has a 3.5mm jack on the top.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 13, 2009)

editor said:


> If it's got a SD slot then the win-o-meter has simply gone off the scale and this won't be an iPhone killa. It'll be a D3str0ya!



Steady on old chap!


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 13, 2009)

Will teach me to read better.

Has Palm normally been tied to a few networks or do we stand a chance of getting this across the board? I was very tempted by a Touch HD over xmas, but couldn't quite bring myself to sign the contract with so many new options available this year.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 13, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Will teach me to read better.
> 
> Has Palm normally been tied to a few networks or do we stand a chance of getting this across the board? I was very tempted by a Touch HD over xmas, but couldn't quite bring myself to sign the contract with so many new options available this year.



Eh, it's not even out in the US yet, so I wouldn't expect to get it over here for quite a few months.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 13, 2009)

Ah sounds good. 24 gigs would make this a serious contender for replacing the iPod. Now let's here some good news about the battery (havent heard anything about its power yet)...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 13, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Eh, it's not even out in the US yet, so I wouldn't expect to get it over here for quite a few months.



I meant based on past phones like the Treo, have they been available across all networks or just carried by a couple?


----------



## Private Storm (Jan 13, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Ah sounds good. 24 gigs would make this a serious contender for replacing the iPod.



They've updated the Engadget page to read:



> Update: Apparently someone got their wires seriously crossed at our meeting. The Pre does not have a microSD slot -- which is kind of a disappointment.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 13, 2009)

Do you think if enough people make a fuss now they will change it before the finished one comes out?


----------



## Sunray (Jan 13, 2009)

editor said:


> The Picsel viewer on my 2004 Sony Clie is very similar: it lets me smoothly drag and flick objects and text around the screen, with a bigger flick resulting in it moving faster, and a slower flick moving the item slower.



If prior use can be proved then the patent application is dismissed.  The flick scrolling is 2007? Don't know how long it takes to get approval, probably ages, those are patent applications, can't sue until a patent gets approved.

Maybe the rest of the world is making hay while Apple waits, no problem from me.


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2009)

Here's a lively article from an iPhone site. There's no denying that Palm have had a good rifle through Apple's iPhone for ideas, but I really don't agree with the form factor claim.

The Pre is _nothing_ like the iPhone, apart from the fact that they both have a big screen on the front - but then so did the Sony Clie  and the Lifedrive years ago.


> What the Palm Pre Stole from the iPhone… and What the iPhone Should Steal From the Pre
> http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2009/01/13/palm-pre-stole-iphone-iphone-steal-pre/


Some good user comments too:





> As iPhone users, I don’t see any reason we can’t all acknowledge that Palm probably has a winner on their hands. It’s a great looking device. The software looks phenomenal. And it offfers something to power users that the iPhone does not: a physical keyboard and a removable battery.
> Also, it is in OUR best interest for Palm to succeed with this new phone, because it will push Apple to update and improve the iPhone platform (something they are probably already doing anyway).


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2009)

Here's a Pandora developer who's worked on the webOS talking about the platform:





> Well, I think one of the important little nuances here to understand is that you might think from the name "webOS" and from the technologies used – HTML and CSS and Javascript – you might think that this is the whole thing, just kind of a fancy web browser, and that you're – y'know, any interaction you take is interacting with web content.
> 
> That's really not how it works at all. What you really have, is that you have an environment where a developer can write a traditional application – so, an application that gets installed onto the phone with all its code and all of its user interface elements and that is actually local to the phone.
> 
> ...


More here: http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9685/interview-with-pandora-about-developing-for-webos/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 14, 2009)

You know I think it's way past time we all got past the 'who stole what from who' bollox. That shit's for the lawyers. 

I don't care if the Pre ripped off the iPhone or vice versa as long as I get the best possible smartphone for my needs.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 14, 2009)

I think Palm's hoping its ex Apple connections save it a little grief on rips like the multitouch gestures and animations.

The downside is that a legal battle's far more likely to kill off Palm than anything else. Apple could get paid for every Pre sold as well as every iphone unless Palm have a good case.


----------



## Structaural (Jan 14, 2009)

editor said:


> If it's got a SD slot then the win-o-meter has simply gone off the scale and this won't be an iPhone killa. It'll be a D3str0ya!



Nah, the iphone is nearly two years old, I'm surprised it's taken this long for a decent contender to come along. A processor and memory update to the iPhone and some serious app updates will move the goalposts again. It wouldn't even exist if the iPhone hadn't come along... and certainly not in it's current form.

I'm quietly impressed with the Pre though - nice phone, nice OS (though you can see the iPhone influence and they should have gone for a higher resolution screen). I'll be interested in battery life with that fast processor and background tasking, though the removable battery should help there...


----------



## Structaural (Jan 14, 2009)

tarannau said:


> I think Palm's hoping its ex Apple connections save it a little grief on rips like the multitouch gestures and animations.
> 
> The downside is that a legal battle's far more likely to kill off Palm than anything else. Apple could get paid for every Pre sold as well as every iphone unless Palm have a good case.



I don't think they should be able to patent multi-touch - any more than double-click or flick scrolling. I hope they do take someone to court and lose. 
We've seen this technology for ages on the massive touch screens and anyone should be able to use it.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 14, 2009)

FWIW my understanding is that Palm's multitouch isn't markedly different from Apple's. I can understand a corp aiming to use multitouch in a similar fashion, but the view is that Palm have used largely identical gestures and motions to Apple's UI - pinching for zooming and the like. That's going to be harder to pass off as accidental, especially when you've ex-Apple folk like Rubenstein (ex head of Ipod division) at Palm.

Not sure if litigation is on the way, but it'd be a surprise if Apple doesn't look back to the lawyers.


----------



## g force (Jan 14, 2009)

But a legal battle is just as potentially damaging to Apple...being seen to bully people just because it can't handle a decent competitive phone being on the market. I seriously doubt the Palm people would be so dumb as to have not read the patents and found a work around. That is after all why you pay such stupidly high fees to your legal counsel team!


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2009)

Structaural said:


> Nah, the iphone is nearly two years old,..


Eh? The iPhone 3G was launched in July 2008.


tarannau said:


> FWIW my understanding is that Palm's multitouch isn't markedly different from Apple's. I can understand a corp aiming to use multitouch in a similar fashion, but the view is that Palm have used largely identical gestures and motions to Apple's UI - pinching for zooming and the like.


It'll be interesting to see just how much Apple can claim. My five year old Sony Clie had gesture flicking and an inertia scroll identical to the iPhones, so Apple certainly can't claim to have come up with that.

I can't imagine Palm would be so naive as to blatantly rip something off without ensuring that they have the right to use it, but with Apple's vast pots of cash and highly litigious 'slap 'em down' attitude, I wouldn't be surprised if they launched  a legal case anyway - regardless of the strength of their case. It's a great way to nobble the opposition.

The Creative v Apple case is an interesting reference.
http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/3339/4363/creative-sue-apple-patent-infringement.phtml


----------



## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

1.5 years since release, 2 since announcement.


----------



## Structaural (Jan 14, 2009)

editor said:


> Eh? The iPhone 3G was launched in July 2008.



Yeah but the essential tech and look and feel was established with the original iPhone keynote in Jan 2007. So any vendor has had since then to be influenced. So Palm coming along two years later with an iPhone 'killa' isn't that big a deal.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 14, 2009)

editor said:


> The Creative v Apple case is an interesting reference.


That ended in Apple paying Creative $100M. $100M would be a lot of money for Palm to fork out right now.

Things haven't gone well for Creative since then. Last year they halved their workforce, and in Q3 alone they lost $32M


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2009)

Structaural said:


> Yeah but the essential tech and look and feel was established with the original iPhone keynote in Jan 2007.


If, as you say, the iPhone 3G was fundamentally an identical phone to the one released 1.5 years ago, then perhaps it's great news for iPhone fans that the Pre has come along to shake up Apple with a fresh design and superb UI that, frankly, makes their phone look a little outdated.

I only wish other companies had been  capable of doing the same. Competition is good for consumers, while a single all-powerful, rival-crushing market leader is not.


----------



## Structaural (Jan 14, 2009)

editor said:


> I only wish other companies had been  capable of doing the same. Competition is good for consumers while a single all-powerful, rival-crushing market leader is not.



I agree, isn't it good Apple exists or Windows would be even worse than it is now?


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2009)

Structaural said:


> I agree, isn't it good Apple exists or Windows would be even worse than it is now?


Absolutely. Apple did wonders for the design and usability of smartphones, but their control-freakery sucks.


----------



## Structaural (Jan 14, 2009)

editor said:


> Absolutely. Apple did wonders for the design and usability of smartphones, but their control-freakery sucks.



Yep, it is rather excessive. Hopefully all this competition will temper that somewhat. 
The main thing that impresses me about the Palm is background processes, if that doesn't make it into the next version of the iPhone I'll be moving on...


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2009)

Structaural said:


> Yep, it is rather excessive. Hopefully all this competition will temper that somewhat.
> The main thing that impresses me about the Palm is background processes, if that doesn't make it into the next version of the iPhone I'll be moving on...


If it works as well as we've seen, their multi tasking solution and interface is nothing short of brilliant.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

I'd be interested to see how it handles running out of ram...


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I'd be interested to see how it handles running out of ram...


I imagine it'll just get slower and slower like WM, although all the hands-on previews have commented that it seemed pretty slick even with multiple cards open.


----------



## Structaural (Jan 14, 2009)

How much RAM does it have (pageable not SD)? the iPhone has a rather measley 128mb.

This palm also uses the latest ARM cortext processor which is a major step up from the iPhone's rather dated ARM that runs about half the speed.

I would've thought this is your dream phone Ed, made by Palm, hardware keyboard, all the iPhone good stuff but not made by Apple.


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2009)

Structaural said:


> How much RAM does it have (pageable not SD)? the iPhone has a rather measley 128mb.


They haven't announced that yet. 

It's certainly looking like a great phone, but if I buy it, it'll because of its features, specs and UI, not because it's a Palm. After all, the Palm OS I've been using for years has vanished: this is an entirely new thing and I'd be just excited by this phone regardless of who came up with it.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 14, 2009)

> The Pre is not the only webOS-based device planned.
> During the Pre's fanfare-packed intro, Palm CEO Ed Colligan mentioned that webOS would serve as Palm's platform *"for the next decade."* So unless the company plans to offer nothing but the Pre for the next 10 years (hint: they don't), there will be plenty of hardware variations from which to choose -- just like the Palm OS of old.



I was re-reading some of the press cutting on this and then I saw this!  Haha.  

A decade!  Lets compare and contrast now with 10 years ago shall we.

Window 98 was in full swing, running in a huge 16Mb ram (a decent DSLR camera takes pictures bigger than that) running on a massively powerful 486DX2-66.   My current desktop has 4 cpu's running 45 times faster than that with 128 times as much memory, with my lowly 2Gb. 

Hard disks were about 3Gb. I've 300 times that in my machine and its not a lot by some.  I need to upgrade.

5Ks download was your lot.

My mobile phone looked like this







Sony's 1st PDA the P800 wasn't released till 2002.

How dated will the WebOS be in 10 years time, it will be irrelevant in 3 years or less.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 14, 2009)

Depends how they define "WebOS".
Linux is still looking okay after more than 10 years


----------



## Structaural (Jan 14, 2009)

Unix is 39 years old... 

But a hell of a lot can happen in the computer industry in 10 years (especially as it seems to grow exponentially). I expect my phone to be incorporated into my contact lenses by then...


----------



## Sunray (Jan 14, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Depends how they define "WebOS".
> Linux is still looking okay after more than 10 years



The Linux/Unix Kernel is fine, its based on computer science principals which is a small branch of maths.  

What your saying there is that PI is a good way of defining the ratio of the radius of a circle to its circumference.  No?! Really?

webOS looks a bit more dependant on current hardware and software.  The speed at which the world moves in those circles, in 3 years we will be onto v2 of all these phones and some other upstart will have something that kicks them all in the teeth.  

Remember how 80's music sounds, computer hardware that's 3 years old looks like 80's music sounds.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 14, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I'd be interested to see how it handles running out of ram...



Yep that and how good the battery life is (its like the Centro you can kiss goodbye any iPod killing)...


----------



## Crispy (Jan 14, 2009)

10 years from now, there will be completely different screen, network and interface technology that will make webOS look like a stone tablet


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 14, 2009)

Are you confusing the OS with the UI?

Or are you and Sunray really saying that no current OS will be in use in 10 years because the IO devices will have changed. Or is only WebOS affected in some strange hardware-dependent way that you know about?


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 14, 2009)

Sunray said:


> The Linux/Unix Kernel is fine, its based on computer science principals which is a small branch of maths.
> 
> What your saying there is that PI is a good way of defining the ratio of the radius of a circle to its circumference.  No?! Really?


In what way is saying that Linux is still in use more than 10 years on like saying anything about Pi? I think I lost the analogy somewhere.

Do you think that the Linux kernel is mathematically 'perfect'?
Ask Andrew Tanenbaum about that one....


----------



## Sunray (Jan 15, 2009)

Operating system kernels are based on the same distinct principals.  They are unavoidable principals.  So much so that some of those principals are directly supported in hardware, atomic writes for instance.

No matter how complex the hardware and software, those founding principals remain constant, like PI.  Hence the longevity of the Unix kernel.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 15, 2009)

I still don't see any relevance of that to why WebOS can't possibly be in use in 10 years time. There are operating systems that are built on those principles which aren't around any more. Remember BeOS*? 

After all, by Tanenbaum's definition of an operating system**, WebOS *is* Linux.

The ability of an OS to survive is partly dependent on its ability to adapt to new technologies, and unless you have a good reason to believe WebOS  cannot be changed to handle new technologies, given the information that's been released about it, I see no reason why it shouldn't be around in another 10 years. The UI might look different, but that doesn't mean it's not WebOS underneath. As I said in my post, it depends on how you define WebOS.



* - Some bits of BeOS (but not the kernel) are now part of ALP which almost brings us back on-topic.
** - _Modern Operating Systems - Tanenbaum, A_ The OS is the kernel, everything else is hardware, system programs or applications


----------



## editor (Jan 15, 2009)

Palm OS 1.0 was released 13 years ago...


----------



## Sunray (Jan 15, 2009)

Can you not see the flaw in what your saying, the OS its running on is based upon a 40 year old OS.  

The rest is targetted at hardware and software that have evolved at a huge speed.  In ten years webOS will not be relevant.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 15, 2009)

Christ alive this thread has taken a seriously geeky turn...


----------



## editor (Jan 15, 2009)

I was talking to a journo yesterday who went to the CES show and he said people was falling over themselves to get on to the Palm store, such was the buzz.

Here's Palm's round up of the coverage: http://blog.palm.com/palm/2009/01/a-brief-history-of-the-palm-pre-.html

Who'd have ever thought that Palm could have pulled this out of the bag? They're like a boxer who spent the last three rounds on the canvas narrowly avoiding being counted out and then they've suddenly comeback with a knock out punch!


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 15, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Can you not see the flaw in what your saying, the OS its running on is based upon a 40 year old OS.
> 
> The rest is targeted at hardware and software that have evolved at a huge speed.  In ten years webOS will not be relevant.


Why can't WebOS evolve too? 

How do you know so much about it, that you can say it can't cope with any future hardware or software changes?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 15, 2009)

editor said:


> I was talking to a journo yesterday who went to the CES show and he said people was falling over themselves to get on to the Palm store, such was the buzz.
> 
> Here's Palm's round up of the coverage: http://blog.palm.com/palm/2009/01/a-brief-history-of-the-palm-pre-.html
> 
> Who'd have ever thought that Palm could have pulled this out of the bag? They're like a boxer who spent the last three rounds on the canvas narrowly avoiding being counted out and then they've suddenly comeback with a knock out punch!



It's crazy, really crazy stuff. Palm are now the target and Apple are losing their boss just at the time they'll see a Palm coming back into the game.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 15, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Why can't WebOS evolve too?
> 
> How do you know so much about it, that you can say it can't cope with any future hardware or software changes?



It may well cope with all those changes, but what it'll not cope with it radical paradigm changes brought about by competition and new ideas.  How many of those ideas have we had in the last 10 years?

10 years in Computing is so far into the future to assume that any pillar you rely on now will still even be relevant, let alone still in use.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 15, 2009)

Yeah, who would have thought 10 years ago that we'd still designing apps with HTML, CSS and Javascript? 
WebOS, it's like Netscape's webtop concept from, when would that be? About ten years ago.... 

Maybe the opposite is true, and that only systems which have embraced the cloud will be relevant in 10 years.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 15, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Yeah, who would have thought 10 years ago that we'd still designing apps with HTML, CSS and Javascript?
> WebOS, it's like Netscape's webtop concept from, when would that be? About ten years ago....
> 
> Maybe the opposite is true, and that only systems which have embraced the cloud will be relevant in 10 years.



Computer languages are not relevant to this discussion.  People use Cobal and that's antiquated.  These are just forms of mathematical expressions and are all functionally equivalent.

I'm talking about software tied to hardware and current paradigms.   10 years. I'm not saying it'll not exist, just its chances are very low.  

Battery, cpu power will be massively enhanced, as will screen technology, including flexible displays.  What is possible now with webOS will be  irrelevant by then.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 16, 2009)

*Pre to use Centro battery?*

If true this is epic fucking fail:



> Coming through Engadget with sources at Palminfocenter and TreoCentral, "the phone will use the exact same battery as the Treo 800w and the Centro -- a 1150mAh model. Apparently Palm reps were happy to snap the back off the device and show the source of its juice off. That same size battery is used in the G1 as well" Jump for more deets.


The Centro battery is shit requiring all kinds of faffing about to get a full day, just about, out of it. And it's not even 3G; how the hell will the Pre manage with such a lame battery?


----------



## editor (Jan 16, 2009)

It sure seems a duff move, but I guess a lot depends on how power efficient the new processor is. At least you can always upgrade to a 1350mAh battery or carry around some cheapo eBay back up batteries.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 16, 2009)

editor said:


> At least you can always upgrade to a 1350mAh battery or carry around some cheapo eBay back up batteries.



Sure but the point surely is that you shouldn't have too?


----------



## editor (Jan 16, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Sure but the point surely is that you shouldn't have too?


I'm withholding judgement until the thing gets real-life tested. Palm have got so much right so far, I'd be astonished if they crippled it with a dire battery.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 16, 2009)

Ah the original Engadget piece has had several updates, looks like Palm's PR department are alert!



> *Update 2:* We've just gotten word from Palm that this actually isn't set in stone yet. In their words: "We're still doing some final development and testing various user scenarios as part of carrier certification."



Hmmm...bit of a politicians answer...but perhaps if a bunch of people complain about using the Centro battery they may think it wise to up the spec.


----------



## paolo (Jan 16, 2009)

1150mAh is roughly the same territory as the iPhone 3G, which has passable - if not particularly stellar - performance.

The truth will be in real use. The processor, radio and screen power draw will have an impact, as will software based techniques (or the lack of) for power reduction.

All in all, I'd say there's too many unquantifiable variables to make battery life worth speculating about at the moment.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 16, 2009)

Why do companies skimp on these things? It can't cost that much extra to put a bigger one in. My E61 has a 1500mAh battery, delivers the best battery life from a phone I've had and its a good few years old now.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 16, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Why do companies skimp on these things? It can't cost that much extra to put a bigger one in. My E61 has a 1500mAh battery, delivers the best battery life from a phone I've had and its a good few years old now.



No idea. But I could see battery life being a marketable element for smartphones given the heavy use they get.


----------



## paolo (Jan 17, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Why do companies skimp on these things?



Form factor.


----------



## editor (Jan 17, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Why do companies skimp on these things? It can't cost that much extra to put a bigger one in. My E61 has a 1500mAh battery, delivers the best battery life from a phone I've had and its a good few years old now.


That's partly because it's only got a relatively small 320 x 240 pixels screen. My old Treo 650 had an *awesome* battery life thanks to its monster 2400mAh battery.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 17, 2009)

Ace. Does it stick out the back the phone or does it just fit like a standard battery. How much did it cost if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## editor (Jan 17, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Ace. Does it stick out the back the phone or does it just fit like a standard battery. How much did it cost if you don't mind me asking?


The Treo 650 battery? That's the same size as the regular battery, just as the 1350mAh Centro battery is the same size too.


----------



## editor (Jan 17, 2009)

Check out the _long hair_ from Elevation Partners talking about why they invested a vast wedge of cash into Palm:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/7181/tech-ticker-interview-with-elevations-roger-mcnamee/

The guy carries about 8 phones with him!


----------



## johnnymarrsbars (Jan 17, 2009)

i'd trade in my iPhone for that in a second. looks absolutely awesome. i was fearing the worst for palm but that looks beautiful!


----------



## editor (Jan 18, 2009)

johnnymarrsbars said:


> i'd trade in my iPhone for that in a second. looks absolutely awesome. i was fearing the worst for palm but that looks beautiful!


That bloke in the interview specifically mentions the rubbish battery life of rivals, so presumably the Pre can deliver in this department.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/7181/tech-ticker-interview-with-elevations-roger-mcnamee/


----------



## editor (Jan 19, 2009)

There's a good run down of the Pre's features here:
http://blog.treonauts.com/2009/01/palm-pre-smartphone.html

Boy do I _want_ this thing!
















The overlaid calendar feature (where you can choose to overlay work/personal/shared calendars etc) is exactly what I want.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 19, 2009)

editor said:


> There's a good run down of the Pre's features here:
> http://blog.treonauts.com/2009/01/palm-pre-smartphone.html
> 
> Boy do I _want_ this thing!
> ...




Me too!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 19, 2009)

editor said:


> The overlaid calendar feature (where you can choose to overlay work/personal/shared calendars etc) is exactly what I want.



You can already do that with the calendar on the G1


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 19, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> You can already do that with the calendar on the G1



Does that mean you have to sync various calendars with Gcal though? Where as this will just pull the ones your already using together...


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jan 19, 2009)

ok..here's an interesting insight into my fickle gadgetlove

because I now know/expect that I'll be getting the new Palm Pre in a year or so (rather than bailing out towards iPhone etc) I now love my Palm Centro a bit more than I did when I had given up on Palm


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 19, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Does that mean you have to sync various calendars with Gcal though? Where as this will just pull the ones your already using together...



Dunno, I only use Gcal


----------



## editor (Jan 19, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> You can already do that with the calendar on the G1


Not quite. The Palm can combine calendars from _multiple_ sources. You're stuck with Google only.


> The webOS address book displays all the information available for each person from multiple different sources. A single person's entry could have, for instance, phone numbers from an Exchange Server, a street address from Google, and a picture from Facebook. All of this would be displayed to the user together, without regard to where it came from.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 19, 2009)

Ah right.  Quite impressive, although it's way more functionality than I personally need.  Quite handy for business users I'd imagine...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 19, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Ah right.  Quite impressive, although it's way more functionality than I personally need.  Quite handy for business users I'd imagine...



It's perfect for me, I have three calendars (work, personal and a charity I'm a trustee for) juggling them all is easier with this set up.


----------



## editor (Jan 19, 2009)

Very interesting....



> After describing Palm's "synergy" method of combining contacts and calendars from multiple locations (including LinkedIn, also a new feature we hadn't heard about before), McNamee gets into describing the new stuff:
> But better than that, it does stuff for you. So when you wake up in the morning, it has taken your calendar -- if you ask it to -- and downloaded the maps for you whole day, it's downloaded the wikipedias for the people you're going to visit and the companies you're going to see... Why is it on PCs you have to go and do all that?
> 
> And when you're late -- get this -- when you're late it -- remember, this things has GPS, it has a clock, and it has your calendar. So it not only knows where you are, it knows where you're supposed to be and when; and so when it realizes you're going to be late, it says "Hey, not only are you going to be late, but I can take care of it for you. I'll send an email to your assistant or to the people in the meeting, which would you prefer? And oh, by the way, here's the map." This is the beginning of a new wave.​ Sounds pretty good to us.  Actually, what has us most excited is that if this sort of functionality is in there and Palm didn't even bother telling us about it during their CES2009 presentation, what other goodies are in store for webOS?
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 19, 2009)

Whoa. That teeters between utterly cool and a little scary (Matrix/Hal 9000!)!! Glad about the LinkedIn integration, means another one of my accounts contacts will be accessible...


----------



## paolo (Jan 19, 2009)

Unless I'm getting confused, I think Apple patented all that - pretty much exactly as described. Gonna be fun!

(I loathe software patents btw, just before anyone thinks I'm cheering on the legal wrangles).


----------



## editor (Jan 19, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Unless I'm getting confused, I think Apple patented all that - pretty much exactly as described. Gonna be fun!


If they patented it, why haven't they implemented it?

Not entirely sure how you could patent such a thing, mind. Still, Apple helped themselves to Palm's threaded SMS and ringer on/off switch (and probably more besides), so maybe patents aren't quite as useful as a competition killer when it comes to mobiles?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 19, 2009)

editor said:


> If they patented it, why haven't they implemented it?



To stop anyone else using it?


----------



## editor (Jan 19, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> To stop anyone else using it?


Well that is one possibility, but it would be rather strange to supposedly own a fantastic piece of market-leading software and then not get around to actually implementing it.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 19, 2009)

editor said:


> Well that is one possibility, but it would be rather strange to supposedly own a fantastic piece of market-leading software and then not get around to actually implementing it.



Corporations do it all the time. Especially in things like the drug trade, local and better remedies are regular bought off or patented then the companies release a more expensive version at their leisure. 

Tech companies might want to get something right or roll it out in a particular time frame (Apple would be a good candidate for this I reckon, they can do all kinds of things with the iPod touch/iPhone but hold back so they can drip feed the market)...

Anyway, partly speculation but that's one view on why they might patent then file it away...


----------



## editor (Jan 19, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Tech companies might want to get something right or roll it out in a particular time frame (Apple would be a good candidate for this I reckon, they can do all kinds of things with the iPod touch/iPhone but hold back so they can drip feed the market)...


I'm not sure there's much space for 'drip-feeding' potentially competition-crushing features in the fast moving mobile market. 

That's why Apple released the iPhone missing basic consumer features like video, MMS and cut and paste, it's why the Blackberry Storm feels unfinished and it's why and most people agree that the G1 phone was rushed out too.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 19, 2009)

editor said:


> I'm not sure there's much space for 'drip-feeding' potentially competition-crushing features in the fast moving mobile market.
> 
> That's why Apple released the iPhone missing basic consumer features like video, MMS and cut and paste, it's why the Blackberry Storm feels unfinished and it's why and most people agree that the G1 phone was rushed out too.



There is when your the dominate player but yeah I agree it is still a risky thing to do.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 19, 2009)

Happens all the time. There are some companies that manufacture absolutely nothing and exist only by suing other companies for patent infringement. The whole patent system is abused by all players


----------



## editor (Jan 19, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Happens all the time. There are some companies that manufacture absolutely nothing and exist only by suing other companies for patent infringement. The whole patent system is abused by all players


I've no doubt it does, but I'm still not convinced that's what's happening in this particular instance. Still, I guess we'll find out in time if seriously Apple's over-worked legal department starts up once again.


----------



## editor (Jan 20, 2009)

Excellent!



> CompanionLink Software has announced plans to release desktop synchronization software for devices running the new webOS, including the upcoming Palm Pre.
> This application will be able to sync contacts, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses, calendar events, tasks, notes, and alarms and reminders between a webOS-based smartphone and the Palm Desktop, Microsoft Outlook, Lotus Notes, ACT! by Sage, and GoldMine.
> 
> 
> http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=14810


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 20, 2009)

Nice one!


----------



## paolo (Jan 20, 2009)

editor said:


> I've no doubt it does, but I'm still not convinced that's what's happening in this particular instance.



It's something I'm certainly curious about. WebOS has at least one ex-Apple senior tech leading it. Was this stuff an Apple (staffer) idea, and they only attempted to lock it down when they discovered it was going to appear in webOS, even though they might not have decided if/when to actually develop it?


----------



## editor (Jan 20, 2009)

Has anyone actually produced details of this patent Apple are supposed to own on this technology because no one's mentioned it anywhere else as far as I know.


----------



## paolo (Jan 20, 2009)

editor said:


> Has anyone actually produced details of this patent Apple are supposed to own on this technology because no one's mentioned it anywhere else as far as I know.



I should temper my previous post - it's quite probably a patent _application_.

I did google after posting, to make sure I wasn't going mad, and did find the report. Can't C&P a link  but hopefully someone who is using a regular computer can do the honours.


----------



## editor (Jan 21, 2009)

Now this is interesting:





> For those of you who weren't listening in to Apple's earnings call today, you missed a prime moment of defensiveness when Tim Cook fielded a question about how the company plans to stay competitive amidst new entries from the likes of Google and, more recently, Palm. What seemed like an answer due to end with a "we've got some great new stuff on the way" slant, Cook dovetailed into how the company views its new smartphone competition. In his words:
> 
> _Q: "There are other iPhone competitors coming to the market: Android, Palm Pre. How do you think about sustaining leadership in the face of these competitors?"
> 
> ...


I really hope Apple doesn't wave it's almighty financial clout and embark on an endless bout of legal battles for none-too-obvious infringements in the hope they can batter all competition dead.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 22, 2009)

What is your view on intellectual property?

I'm against software patents, but generally support protecting ideas like the multi-touch screen Apple created.  The reason I take this view, is that it protects companies who want to innovate.  Innovation cost stacks and stacks of money, because you have to employ the brightest people for possibly no end result. Having those very ideas created in that endeavour used in competing products by companies who didn't risk a penny is unfair.  Apple have tons of cash, so they can innovate easily, but for smaller companies, that innovation risk is very high and should be protected.

It would piss me off if someone made money out of my ideas.

Competition is one thing, direct copying is another.  In the now dead MP3 player war, nobody came up with as easy a way to access music than the scroll wheel, its the primary reason that the iPod became so successful.  The competition had 7 years and failed.  Someone did though, Apple.  Flick scrolling showed that it was possible to compete with the scroll wheel, but nobody thought to use it in a music player.

If Palm have decided it would be cheaper to just steal ideas from Apple rather than come up with their own new ideas, then I predict the demise of Palm in a snow of legal action.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 22, 2009)

editor said:


> Now this is interesting:I really hope Apple doesn't wave it's almighty financial clout and embark on an endless bout of legal battles for none-too-obvious infringements in the hope they can batter all competition dead.



What if they go for obvious infringements. like the fact the multitouch gestures on the pre appear pretty much identical?

No idea whether Palm and Rubenstein think they've got something that allow them to sail so close, but that seems a pretty obvious infringement.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 22, 2009)

Palm are royally fucked if Apple go after them...maybe this is sabre rattling as part of unseen license negotiations?


----------



## editor (Jan 22, 2009)

Sunray said:


> What is your view on intellectual property?
> 
> I'm against software patents, but generally support protecting ideas like the multi-touch screen Apple created.  The reason I take this view, is that it protects companies who want to innovate.


IP plays an important part in protecting a company's investment, but has becoming increasingly open to abuse, particularly by larger, bullying companies with hotshot lawyers (e.g. Apple):





> Sadly, it doesn't matter to most companies that their patents may not stand up in court because the mere threat of court action is sufficient to blackmail businesses into coughing up licence fees. If the choice is between an extortionate licence fee or even more extortionate legal fees (with no guarantee of success) most companies just aren't prepared to take the risk.





> Many modern patents never result in an actual product, instead they are traded in secret between giant companies so that they may be used as weapons in the legal cold war that erupts whenever anyone is foolish enough to try to bring a new product to market.
> 
> Patents are now so numerous and far-reaching that it is essentially impossible to introduce a new software application or electronic device that does not infringe on a patent that somebody, somewhere has filed. Instead, companies must gather their own patent arsenal so that when they are inevitably sued, they will hopefully be able to find something buried deep in their archive that will allow them to launch a countersuit to nullify their attacker.


This is a great article by the way: http://www.charcoaldesign.co.uk/articles/patents.


tarannau said:


> What if they go for obvious infringements. like the fact the multitouch gestures on the pre appear pretty much identical?


Perhaps Apple's claim is not as solid as you might think?


----------



## tarannau (Jan 22, 2009)

Nope, I can't pretend to understand the complexities of IP law, despite working with patent lawyers a fair bit before.

What's an issue is that Palm's multitouch is remarkably similar, id not basically identical to Apple's. Which is a coincidence even for a layman, especially given Rubenstein's ex-position as the head of the ipod division. Palm's got to know that'll come under scrutiny.


----------



## editor (Jan 22, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Nope, I can't pretend to understand the complexities of IP law, despite working with patent lawyers a fair bit before.
> 
> What's an issue is that Palm's multitouch is remarkably similar, id not basically identical to Apple's. Which is a coincidence even for a layman, especially given Rubenstein's ex-position as the head of the ipod division. Palm's got to know that'll come under scrutiny.


If you look hard at the iPhone you will see a _ton_ of identical technologies on previous smartphones including icon-based touchscreen menu, threaded SMS, ringer on/off etc etc etc - that's the nature of technical innovation which often involves incremental improvements on the ideas of many people before.

But what's of real concern to the consumer - and I'm not just on about Apple here - is the way that companies can try and block others on spurious patent claims, with customers ultimately footing the bill. 





> *Once Again, Apple's 200 iPhone Patents Don't Stop Others From Claiming Infringement*
> You may recall that Steve Jobs proudly hyped up the fact that Apple had filed over 200 patents on the technologies related to the iPhone, as if that showed how special it was. However, as we noted, those patents hardly stopped others from filing patent infringement lawsuits against Apple.  In the latest case, we have a company named EMG Technology claiming the iPhone violates its recently issued patent on viewing a mobile website.
> 
> The patent appears to cover the process of reformatting a website so that it can be more easily viewed on a mobile browser -- something that's been done for ages, since well before this patent was originally filed in 2006. Of course, the priority date on this patent may actually go back to March of 2000, since it appears that various continuations were filed -- a common practice among patent holders to be able to later add changes to a patent's language to cover actual innovations that others came up with, but which the patent holder now wants credit, even if the original patent application wouldn't have covered that technology specifically.
> ...


More lawsuits: http://www.applematters.com/article/the-iphone-lawsuits/


----------



## tarannau (Jan 22, 2009)

Ah, no doubts it cuts both ways. Apple has a massive legal team and contingency fund partly because they're a brand often targeted for potentially lucrative patent claims and partly because they're as vigorous as anyone in defending their space.

It's arguable if Creative, for example, with their loss making mp4 playing division, would survive without Apple's legally-prompted licencing of their catchall menu system patent. The individual multitouch gestures seem far more differentiated if anything.

Swings and roundabouts. But it seems, if anything, pretty much the only way to play the technology game now.


----------



## editor (Jan 22, 2009)

Palm is rumoured to be announcing the Euro 3G GSM version of the Pre at the Mobile World Congress in Feb. Whoppeee!


----------



## editor (Jan 23, 2009)

Palm responds:





> It didn't take too long for Palm to start deflecting Apple's strong sentiment on its iPhone multi-touch patent being ripped off in Palm's new webOS™, PC Mag has managed to get in touch with a spokeswoman at Palm on Thursday who said that the company has not been contacted by Apple's legal team, to her knowledge.
> 
> "Palm has a long history of innovation, obviously reflected in our own products and our own robust apps portfolio," she said. "We have long been recognized for our fundamental patents in the mobile space. If we're faced with legal action, we're confident that we have the tools to defend ourselves."
> 
> ...


----------



## Sunray (Jan 23, 2009)

editor said:


> Palm is rumoured to be announcing the Euro 3G GSM version of the Pre at the Mobile World Congress in Feb. Whoppeee!



Some thought PC Pro pod cast that it'll not see the light of day in the UK until the Autumn because Palm don't have the financial muscle to launch like the larger companies.  They also reflected my sentiment that there are a lot of people signed up to long term contracts, how many of the basket of people that might buy it are left for them to take esp if its expensive?

I'm not going to be interested till the end of the year at the earliest so its timed well for the people that jumped on the 3G iPhone at launch.


----------



## editor (Jan 23, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Some thought PC Pro pod cast that it'll not see the light of day in the UK until the Autumn because Palm don't have the financial muscle to launch like the larger companies.  They also reflected my sentiment that there are a lot of people signed up to long term contracts, how many of the basket of people that might buy it are left for them to take esp if its expensive?
> 
> I'm not going to be interested till the end of the year at the earliest so its timed well for the people that jumped on the 3G iPhone at launch.


There's always people signed up to long term contracts but this notion that they're all running on parallel timeframes is a bit silly.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 23, 2009)

Its only of recent time that you had to sign up to a contract to get these phones.

Apart from the odd exception these were all generally available contract free, so it is a valid point to make esp as operators are using the lure of the tech to ensnare people into longer contracts.  Not everyone wants or can afford an expensive smart phone.


----------



## editor (Jan 23, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Its only of recent time that you had to sign up to a contract to get these phones.
> 
> Apart from the odd exception these were all generally available contract free, so it is a valid point to make esp as operators are using the lure of the tech to ensnare people into longer contracts.  Not everyone wants or can afford an expensive smart phone.


Eh? Millions of people signed up to long term deals to get Nokia N95s, WM smartphones, Blackberrys, Sony Ericssons etc etc. I did it for _years on end_ before I moved back to Palm.


----------



## paolo (Jan 23, 2009)

That aside, I don't know I there's anything to read into the timing of their announcement vs. actual ship date. They'll be very busy with the home market for quite a few months. And there's also the issue of production volumes. It only takes for there to be one component that is in short supply to affect the whole thing. I've read one unverified story of the first run being 200k. Even if it's 1m, that's only a few months of stock in terms of US sales, if it goes well.

Apple had a lag of about 6 months before breaking out of native turf. Maybe Palm will be quicker, but not much quicker I'd bet.


----------



## editor (Jan 24, 2009)

Here's Gizmodo's "definitive FAQ" on the Pre:
http://i.gizmodo.com/5133554/palm-pre-the-definitive-faq


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 24, 2009)

I didn't realise that the Palm App Store will be the *only* way of buying apps and you can *only* do it through the phone. 
At least until someone jailbreaks it.


----------



## editor (Jan 24, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> I didn't realise that the Palm App Store will be the *only* way of buying apps and you can *only* do it through the phone.
> At least until someone jailbreaks it.


Note sure if that's true, but here's the real difference:


> On Thursday, we were contacted by a developer who has used and is familiar with the Mojo SDK; he had a lot of good things to say about how Palm is handing the extremely nascent developer community and his hopes for the future of the platform.
> 
> The developer told us that he has explored mobile development on Apple's iPhone SDK and found much of the company's position towards their community to be "developer-hostile"—an obvious reference to their insistence on enforcing a pointless NDA well past its expiration date and their strong hand in regulating what can and cannot be developed for its platform.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jan 24, 2009)

Ah, it's not set in stone at all. In fact, Palm have been _asking developers what they want_ rather then telling them what they have to have:


> *Palm request for app store advice opens floodgate
> *
> Andrew Shebanow didn't imagine that asking for feedback about how Palm Inc.'s app store should work would open up a flood of input. He also didn't expect the move would change his job description. But now both have happened.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 24, 2009)

So "definitive FAQ" is not definitive


----------



## editor (Jan 24, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> So "definitive FAQ" is not definitive


Clearly not!

You've got to admit that Palm's open approach thus far seems to be a breath of fresh air, no?


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 24, 2009)

Palm have been working on this particular iteration of the OS/product for more than 2 years, but there still seems to be an awful lot that is either undecided, or is being kept secret. I'm hoping for their sake that it's the latter.

I'm really curious why they couldn't announce a price or availability date at the launch. Did they launch it too early?


----------



## editor (Jan 24, 2009)

Judging by the wildly enthusistic hands-on reviews from CES, I'd say the phone is close to ready.

Seeing as it's such a revoltionary product, it makes a lot of sense to let developers and consumers know what's coming up. 

Judging by user comments on sites like Engadget, a lot of people are now going to hold off buying a new phone and wait for the Pre to come out, so Palm were wise to let folks know what's coming up.

Besides, it's common practice to announce products several months before they launch.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 24, 2009)

editor said:


> Ah, it's not set in stone at all. In fact, Palm have been _asking developers what they want_ rather then telling them what they have to have:



I have to say that I find that omission very worrying.  It takes ages to develop these things so they work properly and are reliable. This is especially true if they want to include a billing model and payment model as people take offence if you fuck with their money. When is this due for release.  Like the iPhone,  I doubt its going to come with a software store from release, 5 months would be an insane target if they haven't even finished the specs yet.

Secondly, making hard decisions like this and being right is one of the reasons Apple were successful with the App store.  Made the decision, this is how its going to work,  and they wrote it and it works and 15000 applications and millions of downloads (often of meaningless crap I would admit) later its hard to argue with what they did.

Open source, for all its greatness does suffer from leadership. Far too many people feel they know best and you end up with a mess at the end.


----------



## paolo (Jan 24, 2009)

Millions of downloads... 500 million, to put a figure on it.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 24, 2009)

I don't have a problem with app downloading via the phone; I much prefer that to faffing about with straight to pc then syncing to get apps on my phone...


----------



## editor (Jan 24, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I have to say that I find that omission very worrying.  It takes ages to develop these things so they work properly and are reliable. This is especially true if they want to include a billing model and payment model as people take offence if you fuck with their money. When is this due for release.  Like the iPhone,  I doubt its going to come with a software store from release, 5 months would be an insane target if they haven't even finished the specs yet.


I can't say it particularly bothers me. Android's app store was only half built when it went live (it couldn't take any payments) and punters had no problems getting their hands on software. Apple's app store wasn't exactly glitch-free either, with their bizarre policy on seemingly randomly banning certain apps.

I think Palm are doing exactly the right thing in listening to developers and trying to come up with something that works well and encourages the growth of the community. Developers need to know what they're working with and Palm seem keen to encourage a dialogue.

Judging by the immense thought and innovation that has gone into the phone and OS so far, I'm confident that there'll be something useful in place come the launch date.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 24, 2009)

Given that the Pre already uses all the services you use having no killer apps on day one isn't a big deal in my view.


----------



## editor (Jan 24, 2009)

That's true. The webOS is _the_ killer app.


----------



## paolo (Jan 24, 2009)

Some of the questions quoted above only have a symbolic value, for being asked.

Should devs be able to release trials? Err, like, doh!
Should devs all have to implement their own payment mechanisms, or should there be a communal facility? Hmm, now, let me see.

These aren't "discussions" Palm needs to have, it's showboating. Fair enough, and if they can cock a snook at other platforms, well that's all fine too. All part of the commercial game. But as proof of that Palm are good, and others are bad, it's a bit hollow. Like Google saying they wouldn't charge developers any commission for using their App Store. Which was genius misdirection.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 24, 2009)

editor said:


> I can't say it particularly bothers me. Android's app store was only half built when it went live (it couldn't take any payments) and punters had no problems getting their hands on software. Apple's app store wasn't exactly glitch-free either, with their bizarre policy on seemingly randomly banning certain apps.
> 
> *I think Palm are doing exactly the right thing in listening to developers and trying to come up with something that works well and encourages the growth of the community. Developers need to know what they're working with and Palm seem keen to encourage a dialogue.*
> 
> Judging by the immense thought and innovation that has gone into the phone and OS so far, I'm confident that there'll be something useful in place come the launch date.



No, I really don't need any more information that a fully concrete platform and perhaps a decent SDK.  I can get on and write an application with it.

I don't need anything more or less than that.  I certainly don't need to get into a dialogue with Palm about the platform itself.  That smaks of a lack of confidence in their ability.  Its all their own work so far and its impressive,  why change direction now?


----------



## editor (Jan 25, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Some of the questions quoted above only have a symbolic value, for being asked.
> 
> Should devs be able to release trials? Err, like, doh!


Well, Apple don't seem to think so and they're rather successful at this smartphone malarkey.


paolo999 said:


> These aren't "discussions" Palm needs to have, it's showboating.


Is it really? Have you actually read the article referred to?


----------



## Crispy (Jan 25, 2009)

Um, the apple app store is full of 'lite' free versions of full apps.


----------



## paolo (Jan 25, 2009)

Just to set the record straight, the article does not say that Palm asked these questions at all. One employee did, and Palm then had the blog taken down whilst they decided what to do about it. Developer discussion is promised to be reintroduced, but until it is, there is no way of confirming what questions Palm wants to entertain.

So I'll park my comments above, and wait and see what Palm's position will actually be.


----------



## editor (Jan 25, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Um, the apple app store is full of 'lite' free versions of full apps.


But many, many apps do not offer trial versions and never have done.
Interesting discussion here http://blogs.oreilly.com/iphone/2008/12/the-app-store-effect.html


paolo999 said:


> Just to set the record straight, the article does not say that Palm asked these questions at all. One employee did, and Palm then had the blog taken down whilst they decided what to do about it. Developer discussion is promised to be reintroduced, but until it is, there is no way of confirming what questions Palm wants to entertain.


Actually, it was taken down because they were overwhelmed by the response and decided that it would best be served by continuing the debate in Palm's new developer blog:





> To Palm’s credit, though, after reviewing my post and the feedback it had received, there was a general recognition internally that the conversation was a great thing and that we’d like that conversation to continue. But rather than have it be a conversation between me and the developer community, we decided that it would be better if we could widen the conversation to include even more people at Palm. And so here we are.
> 
> This is your chance to let Palm know what you would and would not like to see on the webOS platform, in particular in areas related to:
> 
> ...


----------



## paolo (Jan 25, 2009)

In the new blog, the guy specifically says he's not acting as a representative of Palm.

E2a: And he also references misintepretation, phrases like 'Isn't it great that Palm's doing this'. Maybe he reads this thread.


----------



## editor (Jan 25, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> In the new blog, the guy specifically says he's not acting as a representative of Palm.


Um, and I've just linked to their official developer blog where they specifically ask for input from developers.


----------



## paolo (Jan 25, 2009)

You've said "This is what Palm are doing"
He's specifically said that is misinterpreting things.

I can't argue on his behalf, so I give up.


----------



## editor (Jan 25, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> You've said "This is what Palm are doing"
> He's specifically said that is misinterpreting things.
> 
> I can't argue on his behalf, so I give up.


Employee from Palm ask developers want they want. Is overwhelmed by the feedback so goes to his boss. Boss is keen to continue the dialogue and elects to move the discussion to the official developers blog. 

Sure looks like official Palm policy to me.


----------



## Structaural (Jan 26, 2009)

editor said:


> Judging by the wildly enthusistic hands-on reviews from CES, I'd say the phone is close to ready.
> 
> Seeing as it's such a revoltionary product, it makes a lot of sense to let developers and consumers know what's coming up.



Revolutionary? Are you sure?


----------



## editor (Jan 26, 2009)

Structaural said:


> Revolutionary? Are you sure?


Yes. Absolutely. That's why it's created such a stir.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 26, 2009)

editor said:


> Yes. Absolutely. That's why it's created such a stir.



I wouldn't go so far as to call it revolutionary though.  It's a big step forward certainly, but IMO it's (good, well thought out) evolution of current stuff, not anything earth shatteringly new.

TBH I think a great deal of the stir has been caused by the sheer surprise of Palm pulling something out of the bag when everyone had written them off


----------



## editor (Jan 26, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to call it revolutionary though.  It's a big step forward certainly, but IMO it's (good, well thought out) evolution of current stuff, not anything earth shatteringly new.


I'd say the webOS is revolutionary, as is the handset's gesture area and touchstone charger. It can do things no other smartphone can do and some of its functionality is going to be rapidly copied.

There's enough websites out there who agree with my description too, but let's not get hung up on the 'r' word!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 26, 2009)

Hmmm not sure if revolutionary is the right words really. Seems evolutionary more than anything; ie someone thought of something like FriendsFeed and how that'd be cool as a phone...


----------



## editor (Jan 26, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Hmmm not sure if revolutionary is the right words really. Seems evolutionary more than anything; ie someone thought of something like FriendsFeed and how that'd be cool as a phone...


Liek i said, there's enough websites out there who agree with my description, but let's not get hung up on the 'r' word.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 26, 2009)

editor said:


> Liek i said, there's enough websites out there who agree with my description, but let's not get hung up on the 'r' word.



I don't think anyone is 'hung up' on the word but it's a big word that deserves scrutiny!


----------



## editor (Jan 26, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I don't think anyone is 'hung up' on the word but it's a big word that deserves scrutiny!


Call it what you like, but this sure seems a big step forward for mobiles:





> *Linked contacts* – With Synergy, you have a single view that links your contacts from a variety of sources, so accessing them is easier than ever. For example, if you have the same contact listed in your Outlook, Google and Facebook accounts, Synergy recognizes that they’re the same person and links the information, presenting it to you as one listing. And if you update a contact on your webOS device, it also will be updated in your various accounts, whether on a personal computer or on the web.
> 
> *Layered calendars* – Your calendars can be seen on their own or layered together in a single view, combining work, family, friends, sports teams, or other interests. You can toggle to look at one calendar at a time, or see them all at a glance.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 26, 2009)

editor said:


> Call it what you like, but this sure seems a big step forward for mobiles:



I agree it is a big step forward but not sure about using pr infested terms like revolutionary...


----------



## Sunray (Jan 26, 2009)

All things are evolutionary if its a mobile phone.

Revolution would be Palm saying the mobile phone is dead, we have invented this device for thought to thought transfer with in Eye visual display.

Creepy, but revolutionary.


----------



## editor (Jan 26, 2009)

Sunray said:


> All things are evolutionary if its a mobile phone.
> 
> Revolution would be Palm saying the mobile phone is dead, we have invented this device for thought to thought transfer with in Eye visual display.
> 
> Creepy, but revolutionary.


Really? Many people cited the iPhone as being a revolutionary product in the mobile phone market and that didn't even match existing mobile technology in many areas.

Oh well....


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 26, 2009)

editor said:


> Really? Many people cited the iPhone as being a revolutionary product in the mobile phone market and that didn't even match existing mobile technology in many areas.
> 
> Oh well....



Those many people would be wrong.


----------



## editor (Jan 26, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Those many people would be wrong.


No, they're not 'wrong.' They just happen to hold a different opinion to you.

I think Apple's iPhone made a 'markedly  new or radical change' to the smartphone market.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 26, 2009)

maybe the amount of revolution could be measured in degrees?
So, the Pre is a 196° revolution on the iphone?
Which was a 245° revolution on previous touchscreen phones?


----------



## editor (Jan 26, 2009)

Crispy said:


> maybe the amount of revolution could be measured in degrees?
> So, the Pre is a 196° revolution on the iphone?
> Which was a 245° revolution on previous touchscreen phones?


I dunno. What do you think?


----------



## Crispy (Jan 26, 2009)

I think it's a stupid idea because it quantifies something that's unquantifiable, and that words can mean whatever you want them to mean, and that I couldn't really care if something's 'revolutionary' or 'evolutionary - just that it's 'good'


----------



## Sunray (Jan 26, 2009)

In the light of struggling to talk about a device that we know little about and is not going to come out for months, I totally disagree.

Revolution is something that changes the way people perceive things.   Saying the Pre is revolutionary does make as much sense as the saying the iPhone is revolutionary.  Both take existing ideas and make them better.  That is evolution. 

Revolution is where someone has a novel idea and applies it to some other problem to get somewhere in a giant step.  Everyone goes 'fuck why didn't I think of that, so obvious' or in some cases very hard.  There have been few revolutionary products in history IMO, as has been said, over used marketing bullshit these days.  Most are just evolutionary stages, one good idea being  built upon and refined over time.  Some better than others.

The ford model T car was a revolutionary product, not because it was a car but the mass production of a car enabled economy scale, production lines, the idea anyone could own a car, etc etc.  Pretty revolutionary and the effects of which still reverberate around the world today.

The mobile phone is revolutionary, not because its a phone but because we can now call standing just about anywhere in the world.  That has enabled communication in places where phone lines were never going to be put in or the ones that were, were very expensive to use.  The effects of this are still being felt in remote and rural communities.  Who know where that will lead.

Given the the backdrop, the Palm Pre is good but not revolutionary.


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2009)

We'll soon find out if the law suits are going to start flying - Apple has just had their multi-touch patent confirmed:
http://news.worldofapple.com/archives/2009/01/26/apple-awarded-multi-touch-patent/


----------



## Structaural (Jan 27, 2009)

I hope Apple lose if they go ahead. This isn't tech that should be only used by one company. It's like trying to patent ctrl-click.

More here:
http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/chris-dannen/techwatch/does-apple-really-own-multi-touch


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2009)

Structaural said:


> I hope Apple lose if they go ahead. This isn't tech that should be only used by one company. It's like trying to patent ctrl-click.
> 
> More here:
> http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/chris-dannen/techwatch/does-apple-really-own-multi-touch


Totally agree. If Apple win, everyone else loses.


----------



## jayeola (Jan 28, 2009)

> EDIT: Today Physorg.com is reporting that Apple has officially been awarded the multi-touch patent. Patent number 7,479,949 awards Apple ownership of software capable of "detecting one or more finger contacts with the touch screen display" to computing devices.



??


----------



## editor (Jan 28, 2009)

In depth analysis of the strength of Apple's patent claims here:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/28/apple-vs-palm-the-in-depth-analysis/#continued

It seems that if things get dirty, Palm's got a veritable* arsenal* of older, potentially iPhone-smackin' patents up its sleeve, so let's hope common sense wins all round.


> If you're going to say that the Pre crosses the boundaries of Apple's spring-back edge scrolling patent, you're really not in a position to say that the iPhone doesn't similarly ape Palm's call-management patent -- or the brightness patent, or the contacts patent, or the dim-during-sync patent, or... you get the idea.
> 
> Apple might be the more infamous IP juggernaut, but Palm has literally hundreds of patents of its own, and we managed to dig up four that seem to directly implicate the iPhone in just a few hours of searching. Imagine what Palm's lawyers could do, armed with their actual knowledge of what Palm owns and the motivation of some serious hourly fees.


----------



## editor (Jan 28, 2009)

Great user comment frpm that link: 





> Most big businesses use patents like countries use nuclear weapons. They're a deterrent to stop other people attacking them. This is why Palm are confident that Apple won't sue - it would be mutually assured destruction.


It's a really good article too. Well done Engadget.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 28, 2009)

very good article. 

The best way to beat the competition is to release competition crushing products.

I think Apple will sue though because if they are seen to be doing nothing then people could see it as open season on their stuff.


----------



## editor (Jan 28, 2009)

Sunray said:


> very good article.
> 
> The best way to beat the competition is to release competition crushing products.


Palm sure has got some mighty big patents up its sleeve and a great new phone, so let's hope Apple don't turn this into death by lawyer.

*in response to edit: I'm not sure Apple will sue because it seems that many of their patent claims aren't that strong in the first place (and open to side-stepping tweaking by Palm), while some of Palm's seem_ very_ solid.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm thinking that they will sue and then come to some well publicised cross patent deal. 
 nobody loses face but a warning is sent?

Whats strange is that palm didn't sue?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 28, 2009)

Maybe they just didn't have the funds to take the battle to a huge company like Apple?


----------



## editor (Jan 28, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Maybe they just didn't have the funds to take the battle to a huge company like Apple?


Quite possible considering Apple's vast riches and Palm's heavily depleted coffers.


----------



## editor (Jan 28, 2009)

I think Apple might face quite a backlash (from the tech press at least) if they do go ahead and try to crush Palm.





> What's left? Devices from phone-heavy vendors like Samsung and LG? They were never really considered iPhone competitors and none bring much new to the fight. Because of that, we're left with the iPhone.
> 
> But when I saw the Palm Pre announced at CES, I was thrilled. Sure, some of its functionality looked similar to the iPhone, but it also provided enhancements to the iPhone's design and made me believe that for once, we have a possible "iPhone killer" coming our way.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sunray (Jan 29, 2009)

There is now so much talk in the press now, I'm wondering that there is no smoke without fire.

Is it just the press being the press and a reaction, like my instant reaction, to the fact that Steve Jobs, in his iPhone demo, put up a slide that said Patented, stoked with last weeks stand in CEO's words and that Palm have seemingly moved into that very space in a some form of patent brinkmanship.

Or is someone stirring the pot from somewhere?


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2009)

New video about the Pre with added Nokia taunting. Damn, it's looking hot!

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/29/palms-vp-of-design-shows-off-pre-features-scoffs-at-n95/

The UI looks very responsive even when the bloke had loads of apps open. The Amazon store looks good too. Browse the site, stream tunes, buy them and/or download it and then copy it over to your PC - with no DRM bollocks. It also syncs with iTunes.

edit:_The Pre will have full MSExchange support, it will have the same abilities of a BB and then some (understatement). It uses a synergy platform for those functions which syncs/pushes/pulls everything via the cloud. Make no mistake about it, Palm is going after the business customers it lost to RIM years ago_


----------



## Sunray (Jan 30, 2009)

Ah, syncing with iTunes makes it a real Apple killer.  I like the idea that I can put a new phone onto my iTunes and sync and it will restore everything as it was like on the previous Phone.  

The Pod casts are great.

Blackberries are a tough one to try to muscle out because of the super duper encryption they use and connection with push email, to the Blackberry Enterprise Server. They have carved out that IBM style space, remember the ad 'Nobody's going to get fired for using RIM'. 

Indian government asked for the master key due to concern that Blackberries could be used by terrorists and got told to fuck off by RIM.


----------



## g force (Jan 30, 2009)

Yep can't really see it being a competitor to RIM on the corporate email stuff.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 30, 2009)

I would guess that 'itunes sync' is limited to music only, not the full range of calendars, contacts, photos etc.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I would guess that 'itunes sync' is limited to music only, not the full range of calendars, contacts, photos etc.


Well, yes. After all, that's what most people use iTunes for, I'd imagine.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 30, 2009)

I was addressing Sunray's point:


> I like the idea that I can put a new phone onto my iTunes and sync and it will restore everything as it was like on the previous Phone.


Which is rather more than I expect the Pre to do.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 30, 2009)

editor said:


> It also syncs with iTunes.


Does it? I didn't catch that bit in the video. 

I thought iTunes would only communicate with Apple devices.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> I thought iTunes would only communicate with Apple devices.


No, I can already set iTunes to sync with my Palm.

http://www.normsoft.com/kb/idx/42/172/article/
http://www.markspace.com/products/palm/palm-sync-software.html


PS He mentions iTunes sync in the video.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 30, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Does it? I didn't catch that bit in the video.
> 
> I thought iTunes would only communicate with Apple devices.


You can get plugins for all sorts, including generic USB storage


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2009)

You can just slam in an USB lead and the Pre appears as a generic USB drag and drop drive which is well handy. There's also Bluetooth tethering and Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR with A2DP stereo Bluetooth support. Which rather rocks.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I was addressing Sunray's point:
> 
> Which is rather more than I expect the Pre to do.


Quite possibly so. Palm are more interested in working with Amazon's DRM free service (there's a streaming store browser onboard), but basic iTunes support may well prove appetising to some iPod users.

Here's the format support:

Audio Formats: MP3, AAC, AAC+, AMR, QCELP, WAV
Video Formats: MPEG-4, H.263, H.264
Image Formats: GIF, Animated GIF, JPEG, PNG, BMP


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2009)

Another video update from CES:



> Man, we can't get enough Peter Skillman -- check out this 25-minute Pre hands-on demo Palm's VP of design did at CES.
> 
> Sure, there's some overlap with what we saw Matias Duarte demo during the announcement and the shorter Skillman video we saw yesterday, but there's also some stuff that slipped under the radar -- like the Touchstone's "gecko feet" in action at 1:48, a kinda-sorta unboxing at 2:29, an impressive email / IM / SMS multitasking demo at 12:10, and a peek at the video player at 20:09. Skillman also confirms that the Pre will do MMS, but video recording capability and Touchstone pricing remain a mystery.
> 
> ...


Video here: http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/30/another-pre-hands-on-video-with-palms-vp-of-design/


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jan 30, 2009)

editor said:


> PS He mentions iTunes sync in the video.


Can you tell me when because I've listened to it 3 times now and the word 'itunes' never passes his lips as far as I can tell?
Really.

Maybe it was another video?


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Can you tell me when because I've listened to it 3 times now and the word 'itunes' never passes his lips as far as I can tell?
> Really.


Ok. I definitely heard it on one of the vids. Seeing as you can already do this on Palms with third party software, I can't see it being an issue.


----------



## paolo (Jan 30, 2009)

Interesting stuff.

One minor tense correction re WebOS functionality. "You will" rather than "You can".


----------



## Sunray (Jan 30, 2009)

editor said:


> You can just slam in an USB lead and the Pre appears as a generic USB drag and drop drive which is well handy. There's also Bluetooth tethering and Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR with A2DP stereo Bluetooth support. Which rather rocks.



The tethering is an issue for operators in the UK as they want to sell you dongles with 3g data sim's built in.  Fuck knows why, some people are just buying the dongles, removing the sim and selling the dongles on ebay.

The A2DP is yet another way to prise me away from the iPhone, Apple don't support that bluetooth profile, bluetooth as a whole on the iPhone is crazy limited.  

I can forgive Apple because I know how hard these things are to get all working at launch, but we are starting to approach 18 months from release and these are still not being addressed and everyone it appears, knows the iPhone feed back page.  I'm not unhappy with the iPhone, just a little dismayed at the slow progress.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2009)

Very interesting article on Apple's claim to 'multitouch':
http://i.gizmodo.com/5142445/dissecting-apples-multitouch-patent-can-it-stop-palm


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2009)

The Palm SIM-free pre-order price has been spotted at $399 which makes it very competitive.

http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2009/01/palm-prē-preorder-price-399.html


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 31, 2009)

So that's £399 in the UK then...?


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> So that's £399 in the UK then...?


Not if the Centro pricing was anything to go by.


----------



## jayeola (Jan 31, 2009)

posting from a nokia e71. Mwahahahahahaha!


----------



## paolo (Jan 31, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> So that's £399 in the UK then...?



Could be lower, or even higher - that web site also shows a standard retail of $599.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 31, 2009)

editor said:


> Not if the Centro pricing was anything to go by.



Surely that's not as relevant given the current weak exchange?


----------



## editor (Feb 4, 2009)

Rumoured US Pre release for mid March, announcement for Europe expected at trade show this month....
http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/04/palm-pre-landing-mid-march/


----------



## middle C (Feb 4, 2009)

i haven't read the whole thread, but i have a question.
palm pre uses the same pinch ui on zooming in/out of photo as apple does - isn't that gesture ui copyrighted by apple?


----------



## Crispy (Feb 4, 2009)

I suggest you read the last few pages, it's been covered in depth. It's patented, not copyrighted. Big difference.


----------



## Xanadu (Feb 4, 2009)

editor said:


> Rumoured US Pre release for mid March, announcement for Europe expected at trade show this month....
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/04/palm-pre-landing-mid-march/



Excellent timing for me!  I'm getting a new phone around April.  Hopefully we'll see it in the UK around then.  I wonder how much it'll cost on a £30 a month contract.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 4, 2009)

Initially might be more than that depending on the price of the handset and who Palm choose for their carrier if they are going down the Apple/G1 route of single carrier.


----------



## middle C (Feb 5, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I suggest you read the last few pages, it's been covered in depth. It's patented, not copyrighted. Big difference.



thanks.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I suggest you read the last few pages, it's been covered in depth. It's patented, not copyrighted. Big difference.


And even then, there appears to be considerable doubt as to what Apple actually owns - or, more crucially, what they would be able to make a credible case for in court.

Read this: http://i.gizmodo.com/5142445/dissecting-apples-multitouch-patent-can-it-stop-palm

The market continued to be excited by the Pre:



> Palm shares continue to climb amid Pre hopes
> 
> Palm Inc. the maker of the Treo smart phone, has seen its stock price soar this year -- even as the overall market has mostly declined -- amid optimism surrounding its upcoming operating system and Pre phone, which includes a large touch screen and a slide-out QWERTY keyboard.
> Palm, whose shares lost nearly 52 percent of their value in 2008 finish the year at $3.07, has seen its stock price more than double since then. By comparison, the Dow Jones industrial average is down about 9.5 percent year-to-date.
> ...


----------



## mack (Feb 5, 2009)

Probably a daft question - but how easy/difficult are the current Palm phones to unlock - and any opinions on the likely difficulty of getting the new Pre sim free/unlocked?


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2009)

mack said:


> Probably a daft question - but how easy/difficult are the current Palm phones to unlock - and any opinions on the likely difficulty of getting the new Pre sim free/unlocked?


Palm already offer the Centro unlocked and may possibly offer the Pre unlocked in the UK (although not immediately). All my Palm handsets have been unlocked (650/680/Centro).


----------



## paolo (Feb 5, 2009)

mack said:


> Probably a daft question - but how easy/difficult are the current Palm phones to unlock - and any opinions on the likely difficulty of getting the new Pre sim free/unlocked?



The other option is get an unlocked one from Belgium when they launch there (if they stay locked here in the UK.)


----------



## editor (Feb 9, 2009)

Here's an interesting article that suggests Apple could end up getting seriously fucked if they chase Palm over their claims on a multi touch patent;





> This all gets traced back to Wayne Westerman, and his partner John Elias, who hold the multi-touch patent.
> 
> "The key here is that Westerman's Ph.D. thesis shows he was aware of Bell Labs and other prior art and gestures such as pinching," says Perez-Fernandez.
> 
> ...




http://www.cnbc.com/id/28978246


----------



## Sunray (Feb 9, 2009)

I think it should be forgotten till either side does anything. It would take a decade to sort out anyway by which time both devices will have been and gone.

I look forward to having a go on one of these devices.


----------



## editor (Feb 9, 2009)

I think the topic is worth discussing because the matter of patent rights is going to play a big part in mobile development, especially when it comes to a company as famously litigious as Apple. Don't forget, they were rattling their sabre on this matter only a few weeks ago.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 9, 2009)

editor said:


> I think the topic is worth discussing because the matter of patent rights is going to play a big part in mobile development, especially when it comes to a company as famously litigious as Apple. Don't forget, they were rattling their sabre on this matter only a few weeks ago.



Its only of interest if Apple does anything and that will not be until they can get their hands on one and make up their mind.

There has been talk of mutually assured destruction and a decade long legal fight  if they do.

2019 is a long time away and we will all have ethanol powered super computers in our pockets.


----------



## editor (Feb 10, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Its only of interest if Apple does anything and that will not be until they can get their hands on one and make up their mind.
> 
> There has been talk of mutually assured destruction and a decade long legal fight  if they do.
> 
> 2019 is a long time away and we will all have ethanol powered super computers in our pockets.


Where are you getting this definitive  'ten year' timescale from?


----------



## editor (Feb 10, 2009)

Palm have hired another Apple veteran, Chuq von Rospach, which makes quite a few ex-Apple folks now working for the company.
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2009/2/palm-hires-yet-another-apple-vet


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 10, 2009)

You can follow him on Twitter here: http://twitter.com/chuq


----------



## Sunray (Feb 10, 2009)

editor said:


> Where are you getting this definitive  'ten year' timescale from?



One of the Engadget team is a ex-lawyer and one of his college friends is now a patent lawyer. So he grilled him over this very issue. Its on the podcast for the 30 jan I think.  I'd have to revisit.

He suggested a decade of legal fighting.

This to me is the 1st really dark cloud on the horizion.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/921/1050921/apple-told-google-android-fingers-multi-touch


----------



## editor (Feb 10, 2009)

It's an interesting claim, but there doesnt seem to be anything substantial in there backing it up.

If Apple don't go for Palm (and by all accounts, Palm hold enough patents to _really_ damage them), then that's good news for the industry as a whole.

Notably, Dell have just released a touchscreen laptop with full multi touch gestures including pinch and stretch to zoom, just like the iPhone. Apple may have famously busy hotshot lawyers, but trying to defend what appears to be a flimsy claim against the entire industry could be truly disastrous.


----------



## paolo (Feb 10, 2009)

Sunray said:


> One of the Engadget team is a ex-lawyer and one of his college friends is now a patent lawyer. So he grilled him over this very issue. Its on the podcast for the 30 jan I think.  I'd have to revisit.
> 
> He suggested a decade of legal fighting.
> 
> ...



Wouldn't surprise me. How long did the Apple-MS GUI thing go on for? Might not have been ten years, but it seemed like ages.


----------



## editor (Feb 10, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Wouldn't surprise me. How long did the Apple-MS GUI thing go on for? Might not have been ten years, but it seemed like ages.


A lot of patent claims get settled in_ much_ less time than a decade.

The legendary Creative vs Apple patent battle only lasted around four months and that was with $100m at stake.
http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/23/apple-and-creative-settle-apple-forks-out-100m/


----------



## tarannau (Feb 10, 2009)

Isn't that because Apple and Creative came to a financial agreement rather than it dragging through the courts though? Apple gave Creative some much needed liquidity and offered 'made for ipod' certification for their products in return for dropping the claim iirc.


----------



## editor (Feb 10, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Isn't that because Apple and Creative came to a financial agreement rather than it dragging through the courts though?


...which is often what happens with patent claims....


----------



## Sunray (Feb 10, 2009)

A quick look and RealNetworks wins after 7 years
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003699123_bizbriefs09.html
Lasers at 10 years
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+end+of+a+long+patent+fight-a06199709

I remember Autodesk had one as well plus I could swear Apple and Microsoft fought it out over windows for ever.

I stand by my though that it only becomes of interest (but not interesting) if Apple really go for it.  Up until that point, its all speculation.  

Palm need to release the Pre before Apple is able to consider its position.


----------



## editor (Feb 10, 2009)

Sunray said:


> A quick look and RealNetworks wins after 7 years
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003699123_bizbriefs09.html
> Lasers at 10 years
> http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+end+of+a+long+patent+fight-a06199709.


But for every 7 year or 10 year patent battle you find, there's_ loads_ more that were much shorter in length, even when the stakes were extremely high.

Like the one year Intel vs Transmeta $250m - http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2201962/intel-settles-transmeta-patent

If it does come down to a Apple vs Palm vs just about everyone else, there's no guarantees that it would be a ten year long battle at all.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 10, 2009)

It would be nicer if they spent the huge legal fees on R&D so they outperform the competition, rather then trying to cripple them.


----------



## editor (Feb 10, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> It would be nicer if they spent the huge legal fees on R&D so they outperform the competition, rather then trying to cripple them.


Indeed.


----------



## editor (Feb 10, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Can you tell me when because I've listened to it 3 times now and the word 'itunes' never passes his lips as far as I can tell?


FYI, Pocket Tunes 5 has just been released for the Palm OS:


> You can now synchronize your playlists from iTunes on your PC or 		Macintosh with your smartphone or PDA.  Simply connect your device, 		and the Pocket Tunes Sync software can automatically synchronize 		selected playlists, including album art, with iTunes.  Never again will 		you be without your favorite tunes.  (Pocket Tunes Sync for Windows works 		with both Windows Mobile and Palm OS devices.  Pocket Tunes Sync for Macintosh 		works only with Palm OS devices.)
> http://www.pocket-tunes.com/


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2009)

Sunray said:


> This to me is the 1st really dark cloud on the horizion.
> 
> http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/921/1050921/apple-told-google-android-fingers-multi-touch


Engadget are describing it as a "sketchily-sourced piece" and it's got even sillier now with a writer claiming he's heard that Apple warned Google against including a 3.5mm headphone jack on the G1 after Cupertino was shown a prototype. 

Which is really fucking daft.
Story: http://daringfireball.net/2009/02/apple_google_palm

Best comments on the whole patent shenanigans are coming from Engadget readers:


> Also, I have to say that as much as I love my iPhone, if Apple's allowed to stifle other companies' designs, we may never end up seeing the device that beats it. And Apple won't have to compete by adding missing features like FRICKIN MMS...
> 
> ...The problem is companies are patenting things that are not the result of hard work other than the hard work that goes into finding ways to patent things that are already in common use or are so obvious that they work the way a five-year-old would assume they would work.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sunray (Feb 11, 2009)

All entirely in Apples hands but they can't sue for patent infringement until the Pre goes on sale.

Its very *yawn* because its all ifs buts and maybe's.  Apple may never sue, so all the patent web bluster so far will be irrelevant anyway.  I'm no so keen to add more.


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2009)

Sunray said:


> All entirely in Apples hands but they can't sue for patent infringement until the Pre goes on sale.
> 
> Its very *yawn* because its all ifs buts and maybe's.  Apple may never sue, so all the patent web bluster so far will be irrelevant anyway.  I'm no so keen to add more.


I just want the chuffin' Palm Pre to come out. 

I'm desperate to get my hands on a slick smartphone offering all that smartypants functionality - my Centro is feeling more like an ancient relic with every day!

There's a big mobile event next week in Barcelona and Palm are set to give another announcement...


----------



## Structaural (Feb 11, 2009)

Forgot the iPhone, forget the Pre

the pomegranate phone beats them all


----------



## Sunray (Feb 11, 2009)

Structaural said:


> Forgot the iPhone, forget the Pre
> 
> the pomegranate phone beats them all



Everyone on the internet has already seen that.  

You'll be posting up a hilarious picture of a cat in a sec.


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2009)

The Independent has a big piece on the Palm Pre today.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...alm-can-it-be-a-big-player-again-1606238.html


----------



## Structaural (Feb 11, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Everyone on the internet has already seen that.
> 
> You'll be posting up a hilarious picture of a cat in a sec.




Damn, you take two weeks off the Internet and the world passes you by...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 11, 2009)

editor said:


> Story: http://daringfireball.net/2009/02/apple_google_palm



I was going to post that up, not so much regarding google but for what it's saying regarding the different relationships between Apple and Google, and Apple and Palm.

If that bit about Palm now having a standing offer for Apple engineers jumping ship of a 50% pay rise is true - and Gruber has good sources and tends not to publish stuff he's not sure about - that's practically a declaration of war, and you can expect Apple to reply in some way.


----------



## Crispy (Feb 11, 2009)

"shit just got real"

This will be interesting, but I hope the pre makes it.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 11, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I was going to post that up, not so much regarding google but for what it's saying regarding the different relationships between Apple and Google, and Apple and Palm.
> 
> If that bit about Palm now having a standing offer for Apple engineers jumping ship of a 50% pay rise is true - and Gruber has good sources and tends not to publish stuff he's not sure about - that's practically a declaration of war, and you can expect Apple to reply in some way.



Well, if that is true and the number of ex Apple employees at Palm does make me wonder,  could this get personal?

Personal battles are never ever good.


----------



## editor (Feb 12, 2009)

Some Palm updates from yesterday's Investor Conference:





> Apple patent battle? "There's no issue with Apple over patents right now. There's been speculation but nothing's been done.
> 
> The whole issue with patents is elaborate... We have a big patent portfolio in mobile computing built over 15 years... we did that to have a defensive position in the marketplace. It's like two porcupines circling around... you don't attack so you don't get stung. If something does happen there we do have the portfolio to defend ourselves. We're going to drive the product out the door."


There'll be no more Palm OS devices either...
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/7091/notes-from-palms-investor-conference-today/

... but it's been confirmed the Pre will act as a tethered modem - something the iPhone still can't do.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 12, 2009)

Tethering? Excellent!


----------



## paolo (Feb 12, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Tethering? Excellent!



Possibly excellent. You don't know what the option will cost yet.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 12, 2009)

Won't that depend on the network rather then Palm?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 12, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Won't that depend on the network rather then Palm?



Yep that's my assumption too.


----------



## paolo (Feb 12, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Won't that depend on the network rather then Palm?



Absolutely. Handset / OS vendors can't give away a network's bandwidth.

FWIW, T/Mobile seem to be the best on this at the moment. For £12.50 extra per month, their Web'n'Walk Plus tariff explicitly allows tethering. Bundled with a 3Gb/month allowance I think, but no hard cut off or extra charges if you go over. They just reserve the right to slow you down. But, with a G1, you get that tariff as part of the contract deal, no extra to pay.

Palm I assume will end up on either Vodafone or Orange. My assumption is Vodafone. To date they've not been very tethering friendly. I think the record monthly bill I know of was 27 thousand pounds, for a guy who had 125mb data plan, and then caned it tethering. Afterwards Vodafone (reportedly) said "Never use your mobile as a modem".

But all that could change when the Pre is launched here. After all, O2 had no concept of an unlimited data plan up until they took on the iPhone. Then they muttered something about a 200mb limit, then quickly dropped that idea just before launch, and now run unlimited (but with no tethering permitted).


----------



## editor (Feb 12, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Possibly excellent. You don't know what the option will cost yet.


It's cost me nothing so far with my other Palm handsets as it goes under my unlimited data plan, even if T Mobile say I'm not allowed to use my phone as a modem.

It's all down to whether you take the piss or not, I guess. It's well handy being able to hook up my phone to my laptop occasionally - and it's been a real life saver at times.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 12, 2009)

How can they tell if you are tethering or not? When I was on 3 I paid £5 a month for "unlimited" browsing (1gb) on the phone, although you weren't supposed to use it as a modem it worked and I got about 384kbs. Don't think I ever went over, or if I did, I never got billed for it.

I'm hoping the Pre ends up cross network, as that has to help drive prices down, but it would be nice if it ended up on Orange as they are the only network I can use.

I first used tethering about 10 years ago with an Erickon (not sony!) and a Psion over IR. You got charged by the min and it was even more painful then dial up! It seems odd that since the iphone people are now getting excited that you can do it with a new phone!


----------



## Crispy (Feb 12, 2009)

I guess they could snoop your browser ID and see that it was a desktop version? Also ports and protocols that shouldn't be coming froma phone? Just guessing.


----------



## paolo (Feb 12, 2009)

editor said:


> It's cost me nothing so far with my other Palm handsets as it goes under my unlimited data plan, even if T Mobile say I'm not allowed to use my phone as a modem.
> 
> It's all down to whether you take the piss or not, I guess. It's well handy being able to hook up my phone to my laptop occasionally - and it's been a real life saver at times.



T-Mobile do seem to be the best on this kind of thing.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I guess they could snoop your browser ID and see that it was a desktop version? Also ports and protocols that shouldn't be coming froma phone? Just guessing.



Is this something they could automatically block or would be a case of them looking into if you were taking the piss?


----------



## paolo (Feb 12, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> I first used tethering about 10 years ago with an Erickon (not sony!) and a Psion over IR.



It wasn't really on the telco's radar all those years back. These days mobile broadband is a distinct revenue stream.

In answer to Crispy's speculation... no, ports shouldn't give it away. They could packet sniff for the user agent (i.e. browser identifier), but I don't think they'll bother implementing that unless tethering "against terms and conditions" becomes a problem for them.


----------



## paolo (Feb 12, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Is this something they could automatically block or would be a case of them looking into if you were taking the piss?



If they packet sniffed the HTTP requests, then yes they could drop those packets, or slow them down.


----------



## editor (Feb 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I guess they could snoop your browser ID and see that it was a desktop version? Also ports and protocols that shouldn't be coming froma phone? Just guessing.


I guess they could do but unless you're seriously taking the piss with massive file downloads, I can't see them bothering.

I've known quite a few people 'unofficially' use their phones as modems with no bother, and I've done it for years on end, mainly uploading HTML edits, web browsing and uploading web-sized photos.

It's a _really_ useful feature.


----------



## paolo (Feb 12, 2009)

editor said:


> I guess they could do but unless you're seriously taking the piss with massive file downloads, I can't see them bothering.
> 
> I've known quite a few people 'unofficially' use their phones as modems with no bother, and I've done it for years on end, mainly uploading HTML edits, web browsing and uploading web-sized photos.
> 
> It's a _really_ useful feature.



Sure. The one word of warning I would add though (to casual readers of this thread, not Editor), is - if you're thinking about doing this, make sure that your contract doesn't allow them to charge you for overruns. The fees can be deadly.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 12, 2009)

I don't see why they should get arsey about it. If your paying for 3gb, then why should it matter how you choose to use it?


----------



## Crispy (Feb 12, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> I don't see why they should get arsey about it. If your paying for 3gb, then why should it matter how you choose to use it?


I guess laptops can hammer the connection much harder than a phone can.


----------



## editor (Feb 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I guess laptops can hammer the connection much harder than a phone can.


I always turn off images when I'm browsing via my phone.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 13, 2009)

Palm OS is finally dead

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/971/1050971/palm-os


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 13, 2009)

editor said:


> It's cost me nothing so far with my other Palm handsets as it goes under my unlimited data plan, even if T Mobile say I'm not allowed to use my phone as a modem.
> 
> It's all down to whether you take the piss or not, I guess. It's well handy being able to hook up my phone to my laptop occasionally - and it's been a real life saver at times.



When I had my n73 on T Mobile I used roughly 150mbs (sometimes as much as 400mb) a month via tethering for over a year not once had any problems...


----------



## editor (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Palm OS is finally dead
> 
> http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/971/1050971/palm-os


It should go down as one of the truly great mobile OSs.


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2009)

New video of the Palm Pre here: 

The functionality looks fantastic. Real clever and original stuff.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 15, 2009)

Excellent vid, Palm should do a few of these and cut down 20 second versions for tv adverts. This phone can't come out quick enough!


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Excellent vid, Palm should do a few of these and cut down 20 second versions for tv adverts. This phone can't come out quick enough!


Unless it comes out at some ridiculously high price, my money's going straight on this puppy.

The multi-tasking interface is superb!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 15, 2009)

editor said:


> Unless it comes out at some ridiculously high price, my money's going straight on this puppy.
> 
> The multi-tasking interface is superb!



Mine too! I'm prepared to pay up to £400 unlocked for this (don't really want a contract as the 02 sim only is perfect for my needs)...


----------



## cyberfairy (Feb 15, 2009)

This might be an ever so slight derail but I bought a Treo on ebay recently and love it to bits-however I unlocked it and put it on orange pay as you go but despite only ever making a few short phonecalls and texts on it a week, my credit disappears within days My other half did something to disconnect it from going onto web but it still tries to connect until I cancel-could this be where my credit is going or might it be something else?


----------



## Crispy (Feb 15, 2009)

looking very good indeed


----------



## paolo (Feb 15, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Excellent vid, Palm should do a few of these and cut down 20 second versions for tv adverts. This phone can't come out quick enough!



That video, as it stands, would get banned.

Apple have already had an ad banned in the UK for showing unrealistic rendering times. In the Palm video, there is no web rendering time whatsoever. It's about as fake as you can make it.


----------



## jayeola (Feb 15, 2009)

Sticking with the Nokia E71 until the pre comes out as I don't think that it'll be for a while. By that time I do hope palm's threats of patent mofo-ness have been relegated. would be really silly to purchase something that can be touched, only to find that Palm have "untouched" it cos they didn't want to upset the Apple "we invented touch" massive.


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2009)

jayeola said:


> Sticking with the Nokia E71 until the pre comes out as I don't think that it'll be for a while. By that time I do hope palm's threats of patent mofo-ness have been relegated. would be really silly to purchase something that can be touched, only to find that Palm have "untouched" it cos they didn't want to upset the Apple "we invented touch" massive.


The consensus seems to be that Apple have already ripped off several Palm's long-standing patents, so that any kind of patent war would be massively counter-productive for both parties.

Let's hope so anyway, because a lengthy legal battle would be of zero benefit to consumers.





paolo999 said:


> That video, as it stands, would get banned.
> 
> Apple have already had an ad banned in the UK for showing unrealistic rendering times. In the Palm video, there is no web rendering time whatsoever. It's about as fake as you can make it.


I'd say that ad was more about showing off the _functionality_ rather than making bold claims that consumers would enjoy such speeds (which is what Apple did in their banned advert).

Mind you, the Palm Pre browser is supposed to be considerably faster than the iPhone's so it will be interesting to see what kind of speed it manages in the real world.





> The browser is based on WebKit, though it's actually faster at rendering, displaying and scrolling through pages than any of its competitors, including Mobile Safari. If you're on a web page you can flip the display around and it will automatically reorient.
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/palm-pre-in-depth-impressions-video-and-huge-hands-on-gallery/



Edit: you can see the browser in action here: 
It seems pretty fast (although clearly not immediate as in the video).


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 15, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> That video, as it stands, would get banned.
> 
> Apple have already had an ad banned in the UK for showing unrealistic rendering times. In the Palm video, there is no web rendering time whatsoever. It's about as fake as you can make it.



Not it wouldn't they could easily have a greyed out disclaimer at the bottom of the screen...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 15, 2009)

It's not so much the rendering times as the download times. My _desktop_ is only a bit faster than that.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 15, 2009)

Clearly it must be on Wifi or they are in that mythical 3G zone where you get the theoretical max download speed.


----------



## paolo (Feb 16, 2009)

The video is 'edited', just like Apple's. No point Editor pretending that plucky little Palm is good editing, and bad evil Apple is nasty editing.

Fake vids are fake vids. I'll post some Apple ones up in this thread if that helps.

Anyone saying they're not faked?

No. Good.


----------



## editor (Feb 16, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> The video is 'edited', just like Apple's. No point Editor pretending that plucky little Palm is good editing, and bad evil Apple is nasty editing.


Or the web page could have just been cached, no?

No idea why you're getting so worked up about this, btw. Palm hasn't made any claims that users will enjoy super fast speeds: they're just showing off the device's functionality in an informative video.


----------



## editor (Feb 16, 2009)

Some ore developments:


> On the heels of the enthusiasm that has greeted the debut of the Palm(R) webOS(TM) platform and the Palm Pre(TM) phone, O'Reilly Media and Palm, Inc. (NasdaqALM) today announced that they're collaborating to create the first official resource for programming the new webOS platform. Written by Palm Vice President and Software Chief Technology Officer Mitch Allen and members of the webOS development team, "Palm webOS: Developing Applications in JavaScript Using the Palm Mojo(TM) Framework" is being edited and distributed by O'Reilly Media, a leading publisher of technology resources.
> 
> The first chapter of the Rough Cuts Version of the book is currently available online for free from the Palm Developer Network at http://developer.palm.com, and is scheduled to be available on the O'Reilly website Monday by 7 p.m. CET (10 a.m. Eastern). Rough Cuts is a service from Safari Books Online that provides early access to books on cutting-edge technologies prior to publication. Programmers eager to learn how to develop applications on webOS can literally read the book online as it is being written or download it as a PDF. And with Rough Cuts, readers can participate in an ongoing discussion about the book and technology. The complete book will be published upon release of Mojo, Palm's webOS software development kit (SDK).
> 
> ...


First chapter here: http://developer.palm.com/webos_book/book1.html


----------



## editor (Feb 16, 2009)

Woohoo! The Pre _will_ support Flash. The phone just keeps on getting better.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/palm-joins-adobes-open-screen-project-pre-to-support-flash/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 16, 2009)

Nice one!


----------



## RaverDrew (Feb 16, 2009)

editor said:


> Woohoo! The Pre _will_ support Flash. The phone just keeps on getting better.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/palm-joins-adobes-open-screen-project-pre-to-support-flash/



Awesome, mobile RedTube FTW


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 16, 2009)

RaverDrew said:


> Awesome, mobile RedTube FTW



Heh 'Take your porn into your Palm'...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 16, 2009)

Never seen the point in redtube, torrents ftw.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Feb 16, 2009)

Looks like Palm may be partnering with Vodafone for the Pre in Europe.

No European GSM announcement for the Pre at the Mobile World Congress though.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 17, 2009)

Biggest and perhaps only problem I now have with the Pre is with that tiny keyboard.  

I reckon I can easily out type anyone on a tiny keyboard with Apples virtual one.   I don't like the action of pressing onto something i'm holding.  I prefer the very light touch approach.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Biggest and perhaps only problem I now have with the Pre is with that tiny keyboard.


It's bigger than the Centro's keyboard and I've been getting along just fine with that. 

You may prefer a virtual onscreen keyboard - and they're certainly fine for short messages - but usability tests show a hardware keyboard as being superior.

That's why PC keyboards still have proper keys with physical feedback and people aren't typing on sheets of groovy glass.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 17, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Biggest and perhaps only problem I now have with the Pre is with that tiny keyboard.
> 
> I reckon I can easily out type anyone on a tiny keyboard with Apples virtual one.   I don't like the action of pressing onto something i'm holding.  I prefer the very light touch approach.



It depends on your use, I have the Centro (Pre has the same style keyboard but with bigger and better spaced buttons) and can type pretty well on it. I regularly post on here (posts as long as this) on it and send texts/tweets/emails every day from it with ease...


----------



## paolo (Feb 17, 2009)

My typing, fastest to slowest:

* PC Keyboard (tappable & tactile)
* Touch (tappable)
* Hardkey phone (clicky. have to *press*)

Maybe if I used a hardkey phone qwerty enough, I'd get used to it.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 17, 2009)

editor said:


> It's bigger than the Centro's keyboard and I've been getting along just fine with that.
> 
> You may prefer a virtual onscreen keyboard - and they're certainly fine for short messages - but usability tests show a hardware keyboard as being superior.
> 
> That's why PC keyboards still have proper keys with physical feedback and people aren't typing on sheets of groovy glass.



There might be an infinity number of tests to prove it, but I'm not so keen now I've got so quick with this device.

PC keyboards are much bigger and I can type with many fingers and without looking at the keyboard. I'm not supporting it with my left hand either. I don't think its very relevant to include that.

Clearly a compromise has to be made somewhere. Personally I'm not keen in pressing my device.  I can also type a lot faster without having to make that contact that you need with a button.

This is a good example of me on a small keyboard.  By the time he has typed www i've entered the whole thing.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Maybe if I used a hardkey phone qwerty enough, I'd get used to it.


It's generally recognised as a faster input method for longer messages and, of course, it lets you use speed dials and program shortcuts by pressing a single key.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

Here's the iPhone Speed Typing Test test:


I beat him by miles on my Centro!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 17, 2009)

editor said:


> Here's the iPhone Speed Typing Test test:
> 
> 
> I beat him by miles on my Centro!




I beat him by about 3 seconds on my G1


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

Sunray said:


> This is a good example of me on a small keyboard.  By the time he has typed www i've entered the whole thing.


It's a 'she' and she is typing spectacularly slow.


----------



## Crispy (Feb 17, 2009)

Obviously, this calls for a type-off, mana á mano.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Obviously, this calls for a type-off, mana á mano.


Has there ever been any studies that concluded that virtual keyboards were faster than hardware ones?

Individuals will have their preferences of course, but I've always thought that a well designed hardware keyboard will always beat hitting a flat piece of lifeless glass.


----------



## Crispy (Feb 17, 2009)

Thoughts count for nothing! Only action! Typist vs typist in a ring of combat.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 17, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Thoughts count for nothing! Only action! Typist vs typist in a ring of combat.



I'll have an IBM "M" type as my weapon of choice 

Keyboard design reached perfection in 1984 as far as I'm concerned...


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Thoughts count for nothing! Only action! Typist vs typist in a ring of combat.


So far the G1 and Centro has beaten the iPhone guy. Let's see what your phone is made of. Get typing son!


----------



## paolo (Feb 17, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I beat him by about 3 seconds on my G1



Heh heh!

Exact same for me on glass. 

I'd have been sooooo slow on hardkey, but I think this is probably showing that the biggest factor might be what you are used to, not the keyboard type.


----------



## Crispy (Feb 17, 2009)

editor said:


> So far the G1 and Centro has beaten the iPhone guy. Let's see what your phone is made of. Get typing son!



when I get home. no flash on my work machine


----------



## paolo (Feb 17, 2009)

Crispy said:


> when I get home. no flash on my work machine



"iPhone FC making a substitution. Off goes paulo999, on is Crispy."

*High-Fives Crispy*


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 17, 2009)

Oi! Enough with the bloody thread derail mofos!


----------



## paolo (Feb 17, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Oi! Enough with the bloody thread derail mofos!



It's fun derail though. And sort of relevant. Ish.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> "iPhone FC making a substitution. Off goes paulo999, on is Crispy."
> 
> *High-Fives Crispy*


Crispy hasn't got an iPhone.


----------



## paolo (Feb 17, 2009)

editor said:


> Crispy hasn't got an iPhone.



He's got an iPod Touch. Same thing, for a typing test. 

(Crispy, you've not bottled it have you?  C'mon! )


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> I'd have been sooooo slow on hardkey, but I think this is probably showing that the biggest factor might be what you are used to, not the keyboard type.


With a good hardware keyboard, you can _feel_ the adjacent keys without looking down and that's going to give you an advantage over dead glass with zero tactile or haptic feedback.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 17, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> It's fun derail though. And sort of relevant. Ish.



Bitchasses.


----------



## Crispy (Feb 17, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> He's got an iPod Touch. Same thing, for a typing test.
> 
> (Crispy, you've not bottled it have you?  C'mon! )


about 20 secs. bear in mind I don't do a massive amount of typing. the autocorrect fixed my typing of the word 'three' and the word 'couple'


----------



## paolo (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah I benefitted from a couple of auto-corrects. Roughly a draw. Ish. 

Anyway, sorry KE... As you were.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

Crispy said:


> about 20 secs. bear in mind I don't do a massive amount of typing. the autocorrect fixed my typing of the word 'three' and the word 'couple'


For a proper comparison between the keyboards ability, auto-correcting should be disallowed - or trickier words used!


----------



## Crispy (Feb 17, 2009)

That's like saying predictive text is cheating!


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

Crispy said:


> That's like saying predictive text is cheating!


Not at all - but if you were relying on auto-correct, you would have been bollocksed for time if the sample text included several tricky words that would easily confuse your software.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

This is a pretty good feature:


> *Text Words Per Minute *
> 
> The capabilities of the iPhone's on screen keyboard has been one of the most widely discussed features since the phone was announced in January. There have been many who feared that it would be slow and difficult to use, especially those who are used to hardware keyboards as found on BlackBerries and Treos.
> 
> ...


Win for QWERTY keypads!

The rest of the feature is quite good too, and shows how the iPhone trounces the opposition in many areas of usability.

Shame they didn't include a Palm OS phone in there - there was a similar test in a UK mag a while ago and they were right up there when it came to speed and ease of use.

http://www.wirelessinfo.com/content/Apple-iPhone-Cell-Phone-Review/Hardware.htm


----------



## Sunray (Feb 17, 2009)

I did make a point of saying Apples virtual keyboard due to its often amazing ability to convert even the most unlikely mistakes into what I intended typing. Without that I would have to go a lot slower.


----------



## paolo (Feb 17, 2009)

There's simply no way on *earth* a 12 key numeric (N series) is anything like as quick as that, in relative terms. I've posted here for six months on 'cap qwerty', but barely posted anything from my 12 key 6300.

I reckon though that, all things considered now, hardkey qwerty has the edge. But closer than might be imagined.

What I'd really like in a hard key design is a massively light touch. So, fingers at close range, as they are with a handheld, one can tap. Like a real keyboard. Not press.

If nothing else, it's more fluid.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> I reckon though that, all things considered now, hardkey qwerty has the edge. But closer than might be imagined.


The Palm Pre keyboard comes with auto-correct for a double win, btw.

Interesting article:
10 things the Palm Pre does better than the iPhone
http://www.t3.com/feature/10-things-the-palm-pre-does-better-than-the-iphone


----------



## paolo (Feb 17, 2009)

Is one of them "Be available to buy" ?


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Is one of them "Be available to buy" ?


When the time comes, I expect nothing less than cheerleading Palm staff orchestrating a countdown outside the store and delivering high fives and whoops after I've spent four days outside the store.


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2009)

The Palm Pre will be able to surf the web while taking calls, and MySpace has announced a custom application for the handset.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2341178,00.asp


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2009)

Interesting HTML5 techie stuff. The Google guy is loving the Pre!



> Looks like offline Gmail on the iPhone wasn't the only trick Google's Vic Gondotra has up his sleeve during his talk at MWC -- he also gave a quick demo of Google Maps running as a web app on the Palm Pre. Of course, what's interesting there is that the Pre's HTML-based SDK means that web apps can act like first class citizens on the device -- which is probably why Vic called the Pre "arguably one of my favorite devices." Hopefully that means we're going to see a lot more Pre devs really blur the line between local and cloud-based applications, but for now we'll just settle for the short demo video after the break.



http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/18/google-demos-html5-based-maps-on-the-palm-pre/


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2009)

Here's the soft touch back you need for the Touchstone accessory to work (I prefer that to the glossy one anyway):]






Elsewhere, Palm have confirmed that games are in development for webOS.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/19/palm-confirms-games-are-in-development-for-pre-drops-a-few-othe/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 19, 2009)

I prefer the matte going by that photo...


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2009)

It's actually quite significant that Google Mobile Maps is going to launch a browser-based version of the service for the Pre. 

Google's developers won't have to write several applications for competing operating systems in the future, and the fact that Palm is leading this change bodes well for the platform. 

http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/41580/Google+Mobile+Maps+launches+browser-based+version.html


----------



## Xanadu (Feb 20, 2009)

Do we have any indications on possible UK launch dates or which operators it'll be available on?


----------



## Crispy (Feb 20, 2009)

nope


----------



## editor (Feb 20, 2009)

Xanadu said:


> Do we have any indications on possible UK launch dates or which operators it'll be available on?


Demo models have been seen working on the Spanish Vodafone GSM network so the technology is there.

Palm have just added the Pre to their UK website, which suggests that a UK launch is coming sooner rather than later.


----------



## Xanadu (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm a month away from my contract expiring!  I would love to get the Palm Pre, but I'm not really willing to wait more than a couple of months.


----------



## editor (Feb 20, 2009)

Xanadu said:


> I'm a month away from my contract expiring!  I would love to get the Palm Pre, but I'm not really willing to wait more than a couple of months.


My contract ran out four months ago, but I'm hanging on!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 20, 2009)

That's the beauty of the sim only deals, you can pick and choose what phone you want without waiting for contracts to end...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 21, 2009)

Get the Pre experience on your Centro...heh.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Get the Pre experience on your Centro...heh.


That's well clever!

*downloads trial


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 21, 2009)

It works quite well!! It's quite neat as a taster of things to come...


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm very impressed. I might even buy it - it'll help me keep on the craving for the new Palm.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 21, 2009)

editor said:


> I'm very impressed. I might even buy it - it'll help me keep on the craving for the new Palm.



Agreed to all three points. 

It also made me think a Centro 2 running webOS could easily be done too...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 22, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That's the beauty of the sim only deals, you can pick and choose what phone you want without waiting for contracts to end...



That was my way of thinking, but turns out its much cheaper to buy a phone via a contract. For example, touch hd is about £550 unlocked, if you sign up for 18 months its about another tenner a month on top of the sim only price, so a big saving.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 22, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> That was my way of thinking, but turns out its much cheaper to buy a phone via a contract. For example, touch hd is about £550 unlocked, if you sign up for 18 months its about another tenner a month on top of the sim only price, so a big saving.



It depends on the phone, the savings aren't huge but not being tied into a long ass contract is part of the saving if you ask me...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 22, 2009)

I hear you, but wanted a new toy and the saving was to good not to take. First 18 month contract which makes me a bit uncomfortable, but since I can only get orange over my way, I guess it makes no difference. Couldn't have justified £550 on a new phone, but sub £200 made it ok.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 23, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> I hear you, but wanted a new toy and the saving was to good not to take. First 18 month contract which makes me a bit uncomfortable, but since I can only get orange over my way, I guess it makes no difference. Couldn't have justified £550 on a new phone, but sub £200 made it ok.



Yeah I dig what you're saying too...it's a cash flow issue, my absolute limit would be a bout 400 but that's really pushing it. The Centro only cost me 154 inc a 4gig card, so over a year with a 19.54 month sim only I barely pay 500 quid...


----------



## editor (Feb 23, 2009)

I bought the TealOS app in the end. Can't wait to get the real thing - having several web pages open, along with email etc and being able to flick between them is going to rock!


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 23, 2009)

I can do that on my touch hd.


----------



## editor (Feb 23, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> I can do that on my touch hd.


Not like you can do it on the Palm Pre, which enjoys an infinitely better UI and isn't cursed with the bloated hideousness of WM, lurking under the surface like a slab of Titanic-sinking ice.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 23, 2009)

Not had any other WM devices to compare it with, but out the box its better then symbian. Not sure what all the fuss is about with WM, its fast, responsive and very customizable. Had about 10 apps running earlier, several web pages in tabs and no slow down. 

I do agree the new Palm OS does look very slick though.


----------



## editor (Feb 23, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Not had any other WM devices to compare it with, but out the box its better then symbian. Not sure what all the fuss is about with WM, its fast, responsive and very customizable.


I was very tempted by HTC Touch HD - it's a really lovely phone with some great features, but I just don't fancy going back to a WM phone, no matter how slickly it's been skinned.


----------



## paolo (Feb 23, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> out the box its better then symbian.


----------



## editor (Feb 23, 2009)

paolo999 said:


>


Have you had a good play on the HTC Touch HD? I can't think of any Symbian phone I'd prefer.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 23, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Not had any other WM devices to compare it with, but out the box its better then symbian. Not sure what all the fuss is about with WM, its fast, responsive and very customizable. Had about 10 apps running earlier, several web pages in tabs and no slow down.
> 
> I do agree the new Palm OS does look very slick though.



The problem with Windows Mobile 6.x is that its essentially running on borrowed time.   Its taken a desktop paradigm and supplanted it onto a small device without any real thought to whether or not that was a good fit.

OK it works, but there are starting to be a number of other systems that have shown Microsoft how wrong they were.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 23, 2009)

paolo999 said:


>





I know symbian is pants, but I used it for years, through several phones and having a phone with a nice interface is like a breath of fresh air. New Palm OS looks great, but if I'd kept waiting for the next great thing, I'd still be using a 3330.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 23, 2009)

Sunray said:


> The problem with Windows Mobile 6.x is that its essentially running on borrowed time.   Its taken a desktop paradigm and supplanted it onto a small device without any real thought to whether or not that was a good fit.
> 
> OK it works, but there are starting to be a number of other systems that have shown Microsoft how wrong they were.



I think I know what you mean, I don't think I'd like to use it on a device with a smaller screen, might make some things a bit fiddly. Having a start menu is a good example of this, but the screen is large enough that you don't have to pull out the stylus to use much stuff.

One advantage (although it shouldn't be) is if you've spent years using windows, you can work stuff out very quickly.


----------



## paolo (Feb 23, 2009)

editor said:


> Have you had a good play on the HTC Touch HD? I can't think of any Symbian phone I'd prefer.



I was agreeing with that. Probably too subtle with my smileys.


----------



## paolo (Feb 23, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> New Palm OS looks great, but if I'd kept waiting for the next great thing, I'd still be using a 3330.



An important point. People keep talking about what they can do with webOS. Except they can't. It's not available.

What you _will_ be able to do looks really good of course. Future ownership. Talk about the phone you will buy one day, as if it exists now. Me myself I'm loving the new iPhone. It's amazing. Beats everything. That's right, the one you _can't actually buy yet._.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 23, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> An important point. People keep talking about what they can do with webOS. Except they can't. It's not available.
> 
> What you _will_ be able to do looks really good of course. Future ownership. Talk about the phone you will buy one day, as if it exists now. Me myself I'm loving the new iPhone. It's amazing. Beats everything. That's right, the one you _can't actually buy yet._.



People did the same for the iPhone...nothing wrong with a little enthusiasm for what you hope to be able to do with a phone that you like the look of...


----------



## editor (Feb 23, 2009)

There's a lot to mull ovr with the Palm too: the fact that you could have two emails from different accounts open and active at the same time is a real boon, and having a couple of Word docs and browsers open and copying and pasting between them is nothing less than 100% win.


----------



## editor (Feb 23, 2009)

The Pre is starting to be seen in celebs hands, which means that a launch must be very close now...
http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/23/palm-pre-handled-handed-out-to-celebrities/


----------



## Private Storm (Feb 24, 2009)

Palm's website has been updated too, feel a launch coming on soon.

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/Palm_readies_Pre_for_UK.html

http://www.palm.com/uk/en/products/smartphones/pre/


----------



## editor (Feb 24, 2009)

That TealOS (webOS copy) interface/skin for older Palms really is superb. The real thing is going to be awesome!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 24, 2009)

Not so sure about a launch soon, from I've read no celebs have the Pre they were just allowed to play with a unit. 

Also there's apparently been a security issue which has meant more testing, the next round not due to start until April. 

June is what I've seen as the likely release date....


----------



## editor (Feb 24, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Also there's apparently been a security issue which has meant more testing, the next round not due to start until April.
> 
> June is what I've seen as the likely release date....


Business bods are confident:





> Palm’s new hail-Mary handset, the Pre, has serious Miracle-in-Miami potential if the latest word from Deutsche Bank is to be believed.
> 
> In a note to clients today, Deutsche analyst Jonathan Goldberg was decidedly optimistic about Pre’s chances of lifting Palm (PALM) out of its downward spiral. “After channel checks and a company meeting with Palm at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona we are raising our rating on Palm to Buy,” he wrote. “We see clear signs that they are capable of executing to plan and shipping the Pre at least on time. We found a lot of carrier interest in the device as well.”
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 24, 2009)

It's possible it's Palm pr plan to get people thinking it's coming later so they can go 'ta da!' but I'm not convinced. Something sounds right about the delay to me...


----------



## editor (Feb 24, 2009)

Cute. Engadget have now made a 'hub' for all the Palm Pre news and info.
http://www.engadget.com/hub/palm-pre


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 25, 2009)

Very neat, just been browsing that. Can't stop reading about this device, dead excited and can't wait to get my hands on a unit!


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2009)

Interesting piece on Wired. It looks like develoeprs are taking an interest n the Pre:





> Palm Energizes Developers for the Pre Phone
> 
> With the Pre just a few months from launch, Palm is wasting no time courting developers -- the one group that is arguably most critical to the new phone's success.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sunray (Feb 26, 2009)

They have missed a trick. The SDK isn't available and there isn't an emulator. 

These should have been released at the launch, that would have allowed people to get to work on it straight away and it would have had a smattering of applications when it finally becomes available.


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2009)

Sunray said:


> They have missed a trick. The SDK isn't available and there isn't an emulator.


Thre wasn't exactly a flood of iPhone or Android apps available at launch, but if the webOS is as easy to program as has been suggested, then apps should come in quickly. The Palm Pre won't be hindered by any Steve Jobs-stye control freakery either, which is good news for consumers and developers.

The SDK has already been released to a private group of developers, and it's been reported that it's not lumbered with pointless NDAs either.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news...jo-a-developer-speaks-about-palms-new-sdk.ars


----------



## Crispy (Feb 26, 2009)

It'll be interesting to see just how powerful the apps can be. I get the feeling that advanced graphics/sound will be tricky in Javascript.


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2009)

Crispy said:


> It'll be interesting to see just how powerful the apps can be. I get the feeling that advanced graphics/sound will be tricky in Javascript.


I don't think it'll ever compete with the iPod Touch - at least not for a while - but I'm more interested in all round usability and integrated functionality and - so far - it seems to have the iPhone and its rivals roundly beaten on that score.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Feb 26, 2009)

> Unfortunately Palm is currently not opening this developer program to the public and has only released the Mojo framework and SDK to a private group of developers.


So, that'll be under an NDA then, otherwise it wouldn't be a private group for long


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> So, that'll be under an NDA then, otherwise it wouldn't be a private group for long


Err, as far as I know they won't be arbitarily banning apps on a whim and forcing developers to never discuss the reasons for the refusal publicly. As far as I can see the SDK is not finished yet, hence it's being kept within a small group while it's being finalised.

See the difference?


----------



## Crispy (Feb 26, 2009)

The difference between what?

an NDA on a pre-release bit of software, and control over distribution of 3rd party apps are seperate issues


----------



## Lazy Llama (Feb 26, 2009)

The SDK is currently under an NDA, thus the SDK is absolutely lumbered with an NDA, at the moment.

That's all I was saying, not that Palm are evil and will eat your first-born as Apple blatantly do.

Much in that if someone said the Palm only worked on wind-up power, I'd say that was wrong.

(Though on here they could probably work on wind-up power...)


----------



## Crispy (Feb 26, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> (Though on here they could probably work on wind-up power...)


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2009)

Crispy said:


> The difference between what?
> 
> an NDA on a pre-release bit of software, and control over distribution of 3rd party apps are seperate issues


The NDA Apple introduced to stop developers discussing the reason for their apps being secretly refused from the App Store.

AFAIK, the webOS does not come with such a NDA, and Palm is not seeking total control over what apps the public is allowed to use on the phone they've bought.

_That's _the difference.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 26, 2009)

What are they afraid of by allowing the SDK out there?

Making it only JavaScript is a real pain because JavaScript is an interpreted language and its a bit shit if you ask me.  The web runs on it but popularity or installed base does not means its a great language.  

Being interpreted = slow so don't expect games like you get on the iPhone and the longer they take to execute the more power they consume. 

I hope that there can be more direct coding of native applications, its a speedy phone with native OpenGL acceleration so will be able to run good looking games just like the iPhone does.  Just not from JavaScript.


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2009)

Sunray said:


> What are they afraid of by allowing the SDK out there?


I'd take a wild stab in the dark and say it's because it's a brand new OS and they'd prefer to have a few select developers push it to its limits and find out the flaws before a general release. It seems a perfectly normal thing to do, if you ask me.

Interesting iPhone vs Palm Pre comparison on CNet:


> Perhaps it's the allure of the new and shiny, but Palm's Pre is our new tech crush, and it leaves the iPhone looking like an old maid. The hands-on videos we've seen show an interface as responsive, if not more responsive, than the iPhone's and the combination of the Cards and Synergy system far outshines the linear tree-structure of input into Apple's phone. It really looks like the iPhone but better.
> 
> That said, there are so many variables and unknowns that could quickly shift our opinion of the Pre. Battery life and the way it plays with other devices, like PCs, are two concerns that immediately spring to mind. Part of the strength of the iPhone is the ease with which it syncs files from your computer to the phone, but something tells us Palm won't overlook this.


http://www.cnet.com.au/mobilephones/pdaphones/0,239036203,339295147,00.htm


----------



## Crispy (Feb 26, 2009)

Didn't Palm previously say that synchronisation would be primarily throught the cloud? (spit. is there a less nauseating word I could be using?)


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Didn't Palm previously say that synchronisation would be primarily throught the cloud? (spit. is there a less nauseating word I could be using?)


They did but I think I remember some 3rd party bunch saying you'd still be able to sync to desktops, old stylee. With Google offering more offline features for mail/calendars/to-dos etc I think it'll become academic eventually.

I do like the idea of having my phone automatically sync data to (another spit!) the cloud and it's going to work great with multiple overlaid calendars.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 26, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> That's all I was saying, not that Palm are evil and will eat your first-born as Apple blatantly do.



This literally made me laugh out loud!


----------



## Sunray (Feb 26, 2009)

editor said:


> I'd take a wild stab in the dark and say it's because it's a brand new OS and they'd prefer to have a few select developers push it to its limits and find out the flaws before a general release. It seems a perfectly normal thing to do, if you ask me.
> 
> Interesting iPhone vs Palm Pre comparison on CNet:
> 
> http://www.cnet.com.au/mobilephones/pdaphones/0,239036203,339295147,00.htm



A review based upon hand on videos and making out that the iPhone is dead because of it is amazing Palm fan boy rubbish. 

I can't buy the Pre yet which means all the praise in the world is hot air.  There are precisely 0 applications for the Pre compared to the 20,000 for the iPhone, and that's starting to mature a little now.  Some of the apps and games are really worth having.  Rolando for instance.

I've been enjoying my iPhone for nearly 8 months now, and I've got more music on my phone than the Pre has flash memory.  

I'm not doubting any of its creditials but its currently Vaporware.  Until that changes its 'iPhone killer' status is very muted. 

Remember the iPhone v2 (firmware v3) is due around June time.  Apple just bought up the entire worlds supply of flash memory.


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I can't buy the Pre yet which means all the praise in the world is hot air.  There are precisely 0 applications for the Pre compared to the 20,000 for the iPhone, and that's starting to mature a little now.  Some of the apps and games are really worth having.


But the vast, vast majority of iPhone apps are absolute rubbish and the phone _still_ can't perform basic functions like MMS, cut and paste and video, neither is there anything (yet) to match the Palm's 'synergy' concept which is very exciting.

The iPhone is a great phone but from what I've seen, the Palm serves up a fascinating and innovative  'refresh' that looks to have stolen a match on the handset. For now.

With luck, Apple will respond with an even better phone and consumers everywhere will benefit (so long as they can afford to endlessly upgrade!).


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 26, 2009)

I have to agree with Sunray, it's pointless comparing a phone nobody can buy with one that's been out for two years. It's just lazy journalism for fanbois in my opinion.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 26, 2009)

editor said:


> But the vast, vast majority of iPhone apps are absolute rubbish and the phone _still_ can't perform basic functions like MMS, cut and paste and video, neither is there anything (yet) to match the Palm's 'synergy' concept which is very exciting.



I'm not sure we will ever see MMS on an iphone, its old tech, its all about email. Not saying that I agree, but Apple are very good at telling their users when tech is dead by not supporting it.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 26, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> I'm not sure we will ever see MMS on an iphone, its old tech, its all about email. Not saying that I agree, but Apple are very good at telling their users when tech is dead by not supporting it.



They've got it right too (no floppy drives, moving to USB etc)...


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I have to agree with Sunray, it's pointless comparing a phone nobody can buy with one that's been out for two years. It's just lazy journalism for fanbois in my opinion.


Come on: people are always comparing and discussing the feature sets of unreleased products here.


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> They've got it right too (no floppy drives, moving to USB etc)...


Hasn't quite gone to plan with the one button mouse though, has it?


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> I'm not sure we will ever see MMS on an iphone, its old tech, its all about email. Not saying that I agree, but Apple are very good at telling their users when tech is dead by not supporting it.


It may be old tech to you, but  553 million picture messages were sent last year in the UK - up 23 per cent on 2007.

That's more than 1.5 million _per day_ in the UK alone.  Nearly 5 million were sent on Xmas day.



> *Video and Picture messages (MMS)*
> Total number of picture messages (MMS) sent in:
> 2008 total 553 million
> 2007 total 449 million
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 26, 2009)

editor said:


> Come on: people are always comparing and discussing the feature sets of unreleased products here.



There's a difference between us shooting the breeze on here about it and some proper article with comparison charts! It's a nonsense, the comparison chart compares a real phone with one that that could and probably will change when it's actually made available.



editor said:


> Hasn't quite gone to plan with the one button mouse though, has it?



I didn't say Apple are perfect.


----------



## Crispy (Feb 26, 2009)

I won't buy a phone that doesn't have mms


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 26, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I won't buy a phone that doesn't have mms



I won't buy a phone that's not in the shops yet.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 26, 2009)

editor said:


> It may be old tech to you, but  553 million picture messages were sent last year in the UK - up 23 per cent on 2007.
> 
> That's more than 1.5 million _per day_ in the UK alone.  Nearly 5 million were sent on Xmas day.




I've never really use it, but I think you missed my point. Millions of people were using floppy discs when apple phased them out no doubt it caused lots of frustration for people who used them. Not saying its right, just the way apple does stuff, I'd be very surprised if you ever saw MMS on an iphone. Copy and paste maybe.


----------



## paolo (Feb 26, 2009)

editor said:


> It may be old tech to you, but  553 million picture messages were sent last year in the UK - up 23 per cent on 2007.
> 
> That's more than 1.5 million _per day_ in the UK alone.  Nearly 5 million were sent on Xmas day.



How do reckon that compares with email?


----------



## Crispy (Feb 26, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> How do reckon that compares with email?


From phones?


----------



## Lazy Llama (Feb 27, 2009)

editor said:


> Interesting piece on Wired. It looks like develoeprs are taking an interest n the Pre:


Here's a copy of the developer presentation  - 

It's almost an hour long and shows actual Javascript code and a very simple app being developed. It looks pretty simple to get started with.

In the skim viewing I gave it, it didn't really seem to do anything much that a plain web app couldn't, but I didn't have an hour to sit and listen to it all. There's some talk of the HTML5 local database use, and the internal db storage called Depots, the Mojo framework etc.

The development and demos are all run on a Mac using an emulator and TextMate. The emulator looks nothing like the Pre screens that were demoed at the launch, but I'm presuming that's because the demoed app was so simple.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 27, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> How do reckon that compares with email?



Comparing emails sent from phones would be quite interesting...


----------



## paolo (Feb 27, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Comparing emails sent from phones would be quite interesting...



Given that we are talking about smart phones here, yes it would.

How does your personal ratio compare?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 27, 2009)

I haven't sent an MMS for years but as my phones have got more capable send more and more emails.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 27, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Given that we are talking about smart phones here, yes it would.
> 
> How does your personal ratio compare?



I send about three or four MMS a year at best (less now I can upload straight to Facebook), and can send double or more than that in emails each day.


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> How do reckon that compares with email?


I've no idea, but there's no doubt that a growing amount of consumers send MMS messages in vast numbers every day, and it's a serious omission off any new smartphone.


----------



## paolo (Feb 27, 2009)

The numbers I've found, quite old admittedly, showed a year-on-year halving of MMS use per user. Maybe it's picking up again. Anyone here using it more and more?


----------



## paolo (Feb 27, 2009)

OK, recent UK numbers. Volumes are increasing, but MMS share of messaging is declining, slightly.

Total messages (SMS/MMS), followed by %ge that were MMS

2008: 79.453bn - MMS 0.7%
2007: 57.349bn - MMS 0.8%


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> The numbers I've found, quite old admittedly, showed a year-on-year halving of MMS use per user. Maybe it's picking up again. Anyone here using it more and more?


You're welcome to keep on trying and spin that anyway you like, but the fact remains that with 1.5m MMS messages sent _every day_ in the UK, it's a very popular messaging service that is growing in use (up 23 per cent from last year). 

The lack of MMS on a modern smartphone is a serious omission, regardless of what Apple aficionados insist.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Feb 27, 2009)

interesting...I never got into MMS..maybe 3 in total.. have always had a smartphone though so I guess that's why (emails)


----------



## g force (Feb 27, 2009)

Yeah I don't bother with MMS at all...text to luddite mates, emails to those in the 21st Century


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> interesting...I never got into MMS..maybe 3 in total.. have always had a smartphone though so I guess that's why (emails)


The vast majority of mobile phone users have never sent an email from their phones.


----------



## Jasef (Feb 27, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> interesting...I never got into MMS..maybe 3 in total.. have always had a smartphone though so I guess that's why (emails)



I've only ever received 1. Ever.  I think I tried to send one once but it involved lots of faffing around on the Nokia I had. So I gave up...


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

I rarely use MMS, although it's come in handy occasionally. Go to a big footie game or concert though and you'll see them being fired off all over the place.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Feb 27, 2009)

editor said:


> The vast majority of mobile phone users have never sent an email from their phones.



yeah I can believe that..am trying to migrate my girlf away from hotmail to her grown-up email address  so she can use the Centro properly and we can stop spending all our money on intercontinental sms


----------



## paolo (Feb 27, 2009)

editor said:


> The vast majority of mobile phone users have never sent an email from their phones.



Do you think that's true for smart phones?


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Do you think that's true for smart phones?


There's ample evidence that people don't use all the features on their smartphones (see below for example) and I certainly know people with smartphones who have never sent an email, although there's no question that millions of MMS messages are sent from smartphones.





> "Hardware on mobile phones has been outpacing the software capabilities," Miner declared, noting that 80% of mobile phones being sold today have cameras on them, yet the number of people who actually know how to use them or get the images off the phones is between 10 and 50%, depending on the model.
> http://www.thestandard.com/news/2008/09/24/big-challenge-android-getting-people-use-hardware


----------



## Crispy (Feb 27, 2009)

"Hardware on mobile phones has been outpacing the software capabilities"

Certainly agree. It's only now, bump started by apple, that the phone manufacturers are coming to understand that sotware is important. More important than hardware in many ways.


----------



## paolo (Feb 27, 2009)

editor said:


> There's ample evidence that people don't use all the features on their smartphones (see below for example) and I certainly know people with smartphones who have never sent an email, although there's no question that millions of MMS messages are sent from smartphones.



Do you believe the vast majority of smart phone users have never sent an email from their phone?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 27, 2009)

Many people never used memory sticks whilst there machines had floppy drives, despite them being superior. It was only when computers stoped shipping with them that they made the change.

Stop supporting MMS and people will switch to email. This will cause problems for all the people who haven't got email or haven't got their phone setup to accept it, but we got over this with floppy, I'm sure we will get over it again.


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Do you believe the vast majority of smart phone users have never sent an email from their phone?


Eh? I certainly haven't said _anything _like that, but there is ample evidence that a sizeable percentage of people who buy smartphones don't use all the features. I've no doubt that email would be one of those unused features for some.

It seems to me that you're on some weird stat-twisting mission to 'prove' that MMS isn't important just because the iPhone hasn't got that capability.

Here's the facts: MMS is used by millions of smartphone users. It is growing in use and with 1.5m MMS messages sent every day in the UK, it is patently obvious that it is a hugely popular service. For a smartphone not to have this useful feature is a serious omission right now (that may change in a few years of course). 

And here's the facts to back that up:


> MMS still with a future
> Since MMS hit the mainstream in 2004 the press and analysts have been critical about its level of success. Back then, they wanted to MMS reach the same value as SMS, USD $30bn, for it be considered a success; finally in 2009 this will be a reality. MMS is growing fast and certain countries, such as China and the United States, are becoming very big markets. Worldwide MMS traffic of 75 billion messages in 2008 is impressive, and the future growth looks very good in Asia, as affordable camera-equipped handsets flood the market with China leading the way.
> 
> A recent Airwide survey of 140 mobile operators worldwide on the use of mobile messaging across the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spa agrees with the general thrust of Portio's - that the growth in mobile messaging shows no signs of slowing. The study shows that the number of people sending text messages (SMS) across the EU is growing 3.3% year on year, a figure only beaten by MMS which is growing by 9.2%.
> ...


----------



## paolo (Feb 27, 2009)

I didn't say what you had or had hadn't said. I asked a question. I assume your answer is 'no'.


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> I didn't say what you had or had hadn't said. I asked a question. I assume your answer is 'no'.


The answer is "I don't know."

If you're that bothered to prove your point, why don't you do some of your own research instead of relying on me to do it for you?


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Stop supporting MMS and people will switch to email.


Only if it's as easy to send a picture by email as it is to send and receive an MMS message, which for many phones is a simple process of 'click and send.'


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 27, 2009)

On my Touch HD it is just that, click the mail icon on the photo and you have a choice of MMS or your mail accounts. Can't remember about Nokia as my E61 didn't have a camera.

I agree the software needs to be that easy to get people make the change though.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 27, 2009)

editor said:


> You're welcome to keep on trying and spin that anyway you like, but the fact remains that with 1.5m MMS messages sent _every day_ in the UK, it's a very popular messaging service that is growing in use (up 23 per cent from last year).
> 
> The lack of MMS on a modern smartphone is a *serious* omission, regardless of what Apple aficionados insist.



Omission yes.

Serious problem, hardly.  I've never cursed the day Apple sold me a phone because it doesn't send MMS.  I can receive MMS.


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Serious problem, hardly.


I didn't say it was a 'serious problem.'


----------



## Crispy (Feb 27, 2009)

This is like watching lawyers argue about the punctuation of a contract clause.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 27, 2009)

Crispy said:


> This is like watching lawyers argue about the punctuation of a contract clause.


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

Crispy said:


> This is like watching lawyers argue about the punctuation of a contract clause.


I just find it weird how the iPhone brigade here are insisting that people don't need MMS.

They might _think_ they do, of course. Heck, they might even use MMS often, find them really useful and be one of the millions sending them regularly, but, apparently, they're all wrong. 

And that's because if the iPhone doesn't do MMS, then MMS is a technology to be dismissed.

Apparently.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 27, 2009)

It's possible to comment on something, such as the way a company does things without becoming partisan. Hence my original reply to you.



> I've never really use it, but I think you missed my point. Millions of people were using floppy discs when apple phased them out no doubt it caused lots of frustration for people who used them. Not saying its right, just the way apple does stuff, I'd be very surprised if you ever saw MMS on an iphone. Copy and paste maybe.



Email will replace MMS, the question is when and should it be enforced like Apple choose to do. You originally said Apple still doesn't support MMS. I don't think they ever will.


----------



## Crispy (Feb 27, 2009)

editor said:


> I just find it weird how the iPhone brigade here are insisting that people don't need MMS.
> 
> They might _think_ they do, of course. Heck, they might even use them often, find them really useful and be one of the millions sending them regularly, but, apparently, they're all wrong.
> 
> ...


I now can't shake the mental image of these sort of posts being delived over half-moon specs by a learnéd barrister to a skeptical and weary judge 

RT. HON. EDITOR QC: .... Apparently
_He turns to face the jury_
RT. HON. EDITOR QC: Does any person here present now deny these facts here preesented? No, my respected peers
_He nods at the judge_
RT. HON. EDITOR QC: Your honour. They do not They can not. The defence rests.
_He sits. Shuffles papers. A calm sip of water etc_


----------



## Jasef (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm pretty sure there used to be someone who sold popcorn. And supplied deck-chairs. Yes, that's what there used to be. I remember when this was fields, y'know...!


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

Jasef said:


> I'm pretty sure there used to be someone who sold popcorn. And supplied deck-chairs. Yes, that's what there used to be. I remember when this was fields, y'know...!


I'm done with stating the obvious now, jaed.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 27, 2009)

editor said:


> I just find it weird how the iPhone brigade here are insisting that people don't need MMS.
> 
> They might _think_ they do, of course. Heck, they might even use MMS often, find them really useful and be one of the millions sending them regularly, but, apparently, they're all wrong.
> 
> ...



Isn't it possible that the flip side to that is iPhone users feel MMS is just being used as a stick to beat them with by those who aren't enamoured by Apple?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 27, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I now can't shake the mental image of these sort of posts being delived over half-moon specs by a learnéd barrister to a skeptical and weary judge
> 
> RT. HON. EDITOR QC: .... Apparently
> _He turns to face the jury_
> ...



Comedic genius!


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Isn't it possible that the flip side to that is iPhone users feel MMS is just being used as a stick to beat them with by those who aren't enamoured by Apple?


Err, this is a thread about the _Palm Pre _that is in danger of being taken over by iPhone users insisting that no one needs MMS.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 27, 2009)

editor said:


> Err, this is a thread about the _Palm Pre _that is in danger of being taken over by iPhone users insisting that no one needs MMS.



Yes yes of course but was speaking generally but as it's been brought up here Rumpoll of the Bailey style...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 27, 2009)

Or users of other phones, who can send MMS, but were trying to explain Apple's thinking.


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Or users of other phones, who can send MMS, but were trying to explain Apple's thinking.


I didn't realise you were privy to Apple's thinking, but thanks for the rolleyes. They always help things along.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 27, 2009)

That's because you always jump down peoples throats when posting their thoughts on a situation. I'm not Apple, just specualting on their motives. Its not P&P, we're only talking about new toys.

You then go of on one about the iphone users insisting nobody needs MMS, when I don't even use an iphone and infact chose a phone that enabled me to do exactly what I wanted on it.

Of course its speculation, but then so is much of this thread, hence why I started my original post with "I'm not sure" rather then "This is how it will happen"


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

_Back to the Pre_, I'm watching the  and although it's not really my thing, there's a few interesting snippets in there. Emulator is on the way, as is a full SDK and there'll be plug ins for some text editors like Eclipse.

You can have multiple examples of applications open, with each given a different state if they're in the foreground or background - so it's possible to have three different emails from different accounts open and active, and copy and paste between them and any other open apps.

Data will be cached locally so web based apps cans run offline.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 27, 2009)

http://tinycomb.com/2009/02/04/palm-pre-release-date-leaked/

15th March for the US, thats a few websites that have said that.  So couple of weeks for reviews and then the long slog till its out here.


----------



## paolo (Feb 27, 2009)

Launch in 2 weeks - much quicker than I expected. If I land my new contract I'm tempted to gray one in. 

Edit: Facepalm! CDMA, doh.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Feb 27, 2009)

Don't get your hopes up.

Compare that story with this one.

And there's no FCC approval yet.


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Don't get your hopes up.
> 
> Compare that story with this one.
> 
> And there's no FCC approval yet.


I'm not expecting a UK launch before June at the earliest, but I will say one thing: Palm are very good at keeping things up their sleeve.

No one knew - or even expected - the company to pull out a product as advanced and as innovative as the Pre, so I won't be surprised if they've got more surprises up their sleeve, or if the phone comes earlier than expected.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Feb 27, 2009)

Then there's this Sprint update where the Treo Pro went from the 15th Feb launch on that list to "TBD". 

Maybe they've decided not to launch the Treo Pro as the Pre is ready early.

We'll see two weeks on Sunday.


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2009)

Not sure who'd want the already quite-old Pro when the Pre is coming out.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 27, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Don't get your hopes up.
> 
> Compare that story with this one.
> 
> And there's no FCC approval yet.



I can't find it now but I've read before that that doesn't really mean anything and you can get FCC approval on the quiet. March 15th sounds very earlier even for the US going the things I've read about testing issues over security and the next round of testing due to start April. I really don't expect it launched anywhere before June.

I'm beginning to think Palm have got their act together on the marketing via rumour and leak front at long last...


----------



## Jasef (Feb 28, 2009)

editor said:


> _Back to the Pre_, I'm watching the  and although it's not really my thing, there's a few interesting snippets in there. Emulator is on the way, as is a full SDK and there'll be plug ins for some text editors like Eclipse.



Slight correction. Eclipse is a (very good) IDE. See www.eclipse.org . Its what a heck of a lot of developers use since, unlike a lot of IDE it can be used for more than one language and has zillions of extensions that make the process easier.. Its also (and this is a huge flame war) much easier to use than other IDEs, like Emacs... And since there's a plugin for Pre development, creating apps should be a breeze. All good.


----------



## Jasef (Feb 28, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Don't get your hopes up.
> 
> Compare that story with this one.
> 
> And there's no FCC approval yet.



Didn't the iPhone not have FCC approval until very late...?


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2009)

The HTC Magic G2 phone has only just got FCC approval and Vodafone UK are already taking pre-orders.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Feb 28, 2009)

Jasef said:


> Didn't the iPhone not have FCC approval until very late...?


Mid-May for an end of June launch


----------



## Jasef (Feb 28, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Mid-May for an end of June launch



I'm annoyed as I'm gong to be in the US for a bit and I'm _returning_ to Blighty on 16th March... And since that's a Warehouse date, it might not get to stores until Monday morning...


----------



## Lazy Llama (Feb 28, 2009)

It looks like it's going to be provider exclusive until the end of the year in the US anyway so you'd have to sign up to a plan to get one anyway.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 3, 2009)

15th March is starting to look a very optimistic date. 
Palm Pre Still Not Ready for Launch, Says Sprint CEO.


----------



## editor (Mar 3, 2009)

I'd say that the Pre is in fact more or less finished and ready for release but they want to make sure that there's going to be enough to satisfy demand when it launches. 

There is a _considerable_ buzz about the phone now - if Engadget's user comments are anything to go by it's the most anticipated gadget of 2009 by miles.

Seeing where the company where three months ago, it's an amazing transition.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 3, 2009)

editor said:


> Seeing where the company where three months ago, it's an amazing transition.


It is very impressive.

But they do need to get this right first time. One slip could well kill the company dead. 

If I were them I'd make it as late as they can afford to make sure it's absolutely right. Last Chance Saloon for Palm.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 3, 2009)

Yep, and the last thing they want to do is release it, and everyone find massive glitches or bugs which has people returning it like the BB Storm...


----------



## editor (Mar 3, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> It is very impressive.
> 
> But they do need to get this right first time. One slip could well kill the company dead.
> 
> If I were them I'd make it as late as they can afford to make sure it's absolutely right. Last Chance Saloon for Palm.


Of course. But they have been working on this for a very long time by all accounts. I can remember the Palm rep telling me something amazing was coming ages ago.

I'm still amazed how they kept it all under wraps.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 3, 2009)

editor said:


> Of course. But they have been working on this for a very long time by all accounts. I can remember the Palm rep telling me something amazing was coming ages ago.
> 
> I'm still amazed how they kept it all under wraps.



I remember that, it was the Palm Pro launch wasn't it?

I have to agree, it's pretty remarkable they've not had one leak about this.


----------



## editor (Mar 3, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I remember that, it was the Palm Pro launch wasn't it?


He'd been hinting that something enormous was lurking back at the Centro launch!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 3, 2009)

Crazy, how did they manage to keep it all under wraps??


----------



## Jasef (Mar 3, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Crazy, how did they manage to keep it all under wraps??



Would you expect it after the phones they released recently...?


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2009)

Palm have gambled *everything* on this new handset.

It's certainly brave, and the product looks good, but if it doesn't deliver, then they are _sensationally_ fucked.



> Struggling mobile manufacturer Palm laid out the full extent of its financial woes yesterday, after announcing that its third-quarter revenues fell by 73% compared to the previous year - and that it burned through around $100m of its cash reserves in those three months, leaving it with around $220m of cash.
> 
> That means that Palm will have to stake any recovery on its Pre handset, a touchscreen smartphone - like Apple's iPhone - which is due to hit the market later this year. Although the Pre has garnered positive publicity, the financial news puts even more pressure on it to dig Palm out of its financial hole.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 4, 2009)

> The company said it expects declining revenue and continued margin pressure as well in the fiscal quarter quarter ending in May.
> 
> http://blogs.barrons.com/techtrader...-revs-miss-burning-cash-seeking-more-capital/


Anyone still thinking it's launching the Pre a week on Sunday?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 4, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Anyone still thinking it's launching the Pre a week on Sunday?



Launching on a Sunday?


----------



## Jasef (Mar 4, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Anyone still thinking it's launching the Pre a week on Sunday?



Wasn't the note about expected dates units would get to a warehouse...?


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 4, 2009)

Sure, it was what date the replacement units would be available. So get units in the warehouse on 15th March, start selling them on the 16th, so a week on Monday then?

If that were likely, why would they predict falling revenue for March, April and into May?


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Sure, it was what date the replacement units would be available. So get units in the warehouse on 15th March, start selling them on the 16th, so a week on Monday then?
> 
> If that were likely, why would they predict falling revenue for March, April and into May?


Come on: there could be a whole host of reasons for that.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 4, 2009)

editor said:


> Come on: there could be a whole host of reasons for that.


You still think it's going to be on sale in less than two weeks, even though they haven't announced a price, released the finished SDK or got FCC approval?

I await the 15th March 2009 with bated breath, as that's now the date that the Treo Pro is being launched on Sprint. I'm sure they'll be happy to launch the Pro and the Pre on the same day 

(Late May would be my guess)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 4, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> You still think it's going to be on sale in less than two weeks, even though they haven't announced a price, released the finished SDK or got FCC approval?
> 
> I await the 15th March 2009 with bated breath, as that's now the date that the Treo Pro is being launched on Sprint. I'm sure they'll be happy to launch the Pro and the Pre on the same day
> 
> (Late May would be my guess)



I'm still going with what Palm said, June at the earliest. In the UK by July.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> You still think it's going to be on sale in less than two weeks, even though they haven't announced a price, released the finished SDK or got FCC approval?


No I don't, but I was simply pointing out that there could be a host of reasons why they're predicting falling revenue for March, April and into May.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2009)

Interesting: 





> On Thursday, March 12, Sprint and Palm will co-host a Webcast centered around the Pre, complete with a demo by Fared Adib, vice president of Sprint Device Operations & Logistics, and Matt Crowley, product line manager at Palm. According to the e-mail, they will also highlight three key differentiators that make the Pre a "standout in the smartphone device category."
> 
> The Webcast starts at 11 a.m., Pacific on March 12 with 20 minutes scheduled for the presentation and 20 minutes allowed for Q&A. It's not clear whether Palm and Sprint will release any new information (ahem, availability date and pricing) or if it will be more of what's already out there. Either way, I'm registered for the event for be sure to check back on March 12th at 11 a.m. for all the details.
> 
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10188601-1.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=Crave


----------



## Sunray (Mar 4, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I'm still going with what Palm said, June at the earliest. In the UK by July.



That would be a possible mad moment to launch.

There is a lot of rumour that Apple will refresh the iPhone line around that time and if they do its going to get them an enormous amount of mainstream column inches.  

I think getting the launch well away from anything Apple do would be a sensible idea.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2009)

Sunray said:


> That would be a possible mad moment to launch.
> 
> There is a lot of rumour that Apple will refresh the iPhone line around that time and if they do its going to get them an enormous amount of mainstream column inches.
> 
> I think getting the launch well away from anything Apple do would be a sensible idea.


You don't think the Pre stands out on its own as a hugely desirable handset?

The Pre offers something quite different to the iPhone and unless Apple totally rip off their multi-tasking interface and synergy concepts, I'd say Palm have nothing to fear from another iPhone launch. If anything it'll be_ Apple_ not wanting to release their phone the same time as the long awaited Pre.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 5, 2009)

I think the Pre (being that its a totally new phone and os not just a revision) can hold its own against the 'new' iPhones in July...

But anyway, yeah Ed, that Sprint/Palm event certainly is tantalising!


----------



## Sunray (Mar 5, 2009)

editor said:


> You don't think the Pre stands out on its own as a hugely desirable handset?
> 
> The Pre offers something quite different to the iPhone and unless Apple totally rip off their multi-tasking interface and synergy concepts, I'd say Palm have nothing to fear from another iPhone launch. If anything it'll be_ Apple_ not wanting to release their phone the same time as the long awaited Pre.



Its not about the phone as a product.

Apple are fawned upon by the mainstream press. Palm are nobodies in comparison.  The tech press will give them column inches but that's not who they need to be selling the phone to to survive.  

If they step on the coat tails of Apples marketing juggernaut then it could get swamped.

Right now would be an ideal time to release it don't you think.  Pretty benign moment, nothing really big on the Mobile phone front for a while.   If and when Apple did refresh the iPhone line or other players came into the game, it'd get included into all the comparison reviews in the main stream press.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 5, 2009)

Even if Apple did nothing more than make the handset a different colour they'd still get more publicity than Palm, and would still sell more. 

Sunray is right, Palm would be insane to go head to head with Apple on lauch dates, they need to get in first by a significant amount, or wait till any new iphone fuss has died down.


----------



## editor (Mar 5, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Even if Apple did nothing more than make the handset a different colour they'd still get more publicity than Palm, and would still sell more.
> 
> Sunray is right, Palm would be insane to go head to head with Apple on lauch dates, they need to get in first by a significant amount, or wait till any new iphone fuss has died down.


Normally I'd agree with, but this is different. The iPhone is on diminishing publicity returns now whereas an exciting new product *and* a new OS from one of the most famous smartphone makers on the planet is sure to generate more publicity than a third product refresh, even if it's for the mighty iPhone.

The buzz about the Palm Pre is *huge*. And if you don't believe me, check out the leading gadget site Engadget's poll on 'most anticipated gadget of 2009'.

That site is famed for its Apple fanboydon, but check out the user comments - the Pre is leading by _miles._


----------



## Structaural (Mar 5, 2009)

I hope it does really well. My iPhone is pissing me off now. Crashing browser, no C&P, no backgrounding, sluggish, locked to one computer syncing. Apple need a kick.

The problem with the Pre is that it is popular with people like us - gadget freaks, but the most people are still well enamoured with the iPhone, so they'd better do some really good marketing.


----------



## g force (Mar 5, 2009)

editor said:


> Normally I'd agree with, but this is different. The iPhone is on diminishing publicity returns now whereas an exciting new product *and* a new OS from one of the most famous smartphone makers on the planet is sure to generate more publicity than a third product refresh, even if it's for the mighty iPhone.
> 
> The buzz about the Palm Pre is *huge*. And if you don't believe me, check out the leading gadget site Engadget's poll on 'most anticipated gadget of 2009'.
> 
> That site is famed for its Apple fanboydon, but check out the user comments - the Pre is leading by _miles._



True but their points were regarding mainstream press...I doubt a lot of mobile phone buyers regulalrly visit Engadget (they bloody should though!!) and instead take cues from Metro, Guardian, Times etc who do fawn over apple.

If Apple did release multi colours for the iPhone plus new features it would get massive coverage.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 5, 2009)

editor said:


> The buzz about the Palm Pre is *huge*. And if you don't believe me, check out the leading gadget site Engadget's poll on 'most anticipated gadget of 2009'.
> 
> That site is famed for its Apple fanboydon, but check out the user comments - the Pre is leading by _miles._


At the moment it doesn't qualify for nominations though:

"It has to be a real gadget people can buy! Pre-orders don't count."

and

"Don't nominate anything that wasn't sold for the first time in 2008."

Those rules make no sense though. If you can buy it, why would it be anticipated, and if it was sold for the first time in 2008, why would it be most anticipated of 2009?

Bizarre!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 5, 2009)

g force said:


> True but their points were regarding mainstream press...I doubt a lot of mobile phone buyers regulalrly visit Engadget (they bloody should though!!) and instead take cues from Metro, Guardian, Times etc who do fawn over apple.
> 
> If Apple did release multi colours for the iPhone plus new features it would get massive coverage.



Who do you think the Guardian, BBC etc take their cues from?


----------



## g force (Mar 5, 2009)

PR teams if the Guardian tech pages are anything to go by...


----------



## editor (Mar 5, 2009)

g force said:


> If Apple did release multi colours for the iPhone plus new features it would get massive coverage.


I'm sure it would because when it comes to PR hype, Apple are the absolute kings. Eve minor product refreshes get press way out of proportion to the content.

But I very much doubt a few pretty colours is going to be much of a story to sustain compared to a brand new phone with a brand new OS with some absolutely stunning features. What do you think is going be the biggest story: "Apple release the same phone with a few colours and a few tweaks," or" Ahoy! The real iPhone killer* is in town  it's smaller, with amazing features, stunning functionality and a real keyboard!"



Lazy Llama said:


> At the moment it doesn't qualify for nominations though:


The total dominance of the Pre from user comments just proves how keenly anticipated the device is, regardless of Engadget's bizarre rules.

*example claim. Not my opinion.


----------



## paolo (Mar 5, 2009)

Sunray said:


> That would be a possible mad moment to launch... I think getting the launch well away from anything Apple do would be a sensible idea.



Totally.

A big part of my job years ago was planning product launches, and you just don't go head to head if you can avoid it.

There's only so many column inches to be had, and there's no upside to sharing them with a competitor.


----------



## editor (Mar 5, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Totally.
> 
> A big part of my job years ago was planning product launches, and you just don't go head to head if you can avoid it.


Unless, of course, you're quick to reveal some 'spoiler' press releases of your own around the time of the rival launch. 

Happens quite a lot and can be an effective way of diluting the impact of the other product.


----------



## editor (Mar 5, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Even if Apple did nothing more than make the handset a different colour they'd still get more publicity than Palm, and would still sell more.
> 
> Sunray is right, Palm would be insane to go head to head with Apple on lauch dates, they need to get in first by a significant amount, or wait till any new iphone fuss has died down.


Tee hee! Right on cue:



> *Palm Pre is officially year's hottest gadget*
> T3 decides the iPhone not as exciting any more
> 
> The year's hottest gadgets have been announced, and a few surprises have been sprung - namely the Palm Pre hitting the top spot, despite only being announced a month and a half ago.
> ...







> A big theme of this year’s Hot 100 is time-worn brands redeeming themselves: Toshiba phones and Sony Walkmans in the top 10 is surprising enough but… a Palm phone? A hot product from a company that, like Vanilla Ice, was big in the 90s?
> 
> Believe it. Palm has taken the best aspects of the iPhone and BlackBerry Pearl, thrown away the things that users don’t like about those handsets and produced this year’s hottest gadget. Even more than Nokia’s N97, it’s the first true “iPhone killer”.
> 
> ...


T3 Top 100: http://hot100.t3.com/1/


----------



## g force (Mar 5, 2009)

editor said:


> I'm sure it would because when it comes to PR hype, Apple are the absolute kings. Eve minor product refreshes get press way out of proportion to the content.
> 
> But I very much doubt a few pretty colours is going to be much of a story to sustain compared to a brand new phone with a brand new OS with some absolutely stunning features. What do you think is going be the biggest story: "Apple release the same phone with a few colours and a few tweaks," or" Ahoy! The real iPhone killer* is in town  it's smaller, with amazing features, stunning functionality and a real keyboard!"
> 
> ...



I totally agree...I just fear your average punter will keep up with the Jones' and plump for iPhone. The Pre needs to be sold in big numbers, mates seeing mates using it and then it won't have a problem...and that might require Palm offering killer deals from the off to grab market share quickly*. 

It's just that for many, many punters Palm has no brand value (god I hate saying that)...they know Nokia, Apple and Blackberry. I believe that's why HTC struggles to really break in because it's a nothing brand that relies on networks taking it's handsets and promoting them.

*issue here being Palm is losing money hand over fist right now so is constrained


----------



## editor (Mar 5, 2009)

g force said:


> It's just that for many, many punters Palm has no brand value (god I hate saying that)...they know Nokia, Apple and Blackberry. I believe that's why HTC struggles to really break in because it's a nothing brand that relies on networks taking it's handsets and promoting them.


Point to bear in mind here is that while Palm have never been that big in the UK, they are a _very_ well known brand in the US and that's where they'll look to make a killing.


----------



## editor (Mar 5, 2009)

Re: release date. I'm not saying that the Pre is coming this month, but it's worth noting that the G2 has already got a rather nippy March 15th release set for France:
http://androidcommunity.com/htc-dream-gets-march-15th-release-on-orange-france-20090305/


----------



## Xanadu (Mar 6, 2009)

Ah, my phone contract expires in May.  Might actually need to pick up a new battery to tide me over til then.  I hope it's out by June over here.  Needs to be HSPDA for me to bother with it though...


----------



## Structaural (Mar 10, 2009)

Palm's struggle with cash:

Link


----------



## editor (Mar 10, 2009)

Structaural said:


> Palm's struggle with cash:
> 
> Link


Seems to be going well though: 





> Palm increases stock offering, nets $83.9 million
> 
> Palm shares rose sharply in early morning trading Tuesday, after the handset maker increased the size of its secondary offering and netted $83.9 million.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Mar 10, 2009)

Here's an other almighty piece of excited pre-release hype about the Palm Pre. The OS looks as smooth as silk and well fast. Double want!

"Is it better than the iPhone?"
"It'll certainly give it a run for the money"

NBC TV feature.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/10/in-case-you-missed-late-night-with-jimmy-fallon-last-night/


----------



## Sunray (Mar 10, 2009)

g force said:


> ...I believe that's why HTC struggles to really break in because it's a nothing brand that relies on networks taking it's handsets and promoting them.



Not quite true, they are a nothing brand but rely on making handset for everyone and as such are a multi-billion dollar company.  

Didn't have a design team, but got one and started using their muscle and production technology to build their own handsets. 

Give it a bit longer and they will be up there in terms of brand recognition.


----------



## editor (Mar 10, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Not quite true, they are a nothing brand but rely on making handset for everyone and as such are a multi-billion dollar company.
> 
> Didn't have a design team, but got one and started using their muscle and production technology to build their own handsets.
> 
> Give it a bit longer and they will be up there in terms of brand recognition.


HTC and "struggling" don't really go together right now!



> HTC's sales revenue totalled $2.2 billion for 2005, a 102% increase from the previous year. It was listed as the fastest growing tech company in BusinessWeek's Info Tech 100
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Tech_Computer_Corporation


----------



## Structaural (Mar 10, 2009)

editor said:


> Here's an other almighty piece of excited pre-release hype about the Palm Pre. The OS looks as smooth as silk and well fast. Double want!
> 
> "Is it better than the iPhone?"
> "It'll certainly give it a run for the money"
> ...



adverts for it are appearing too (Sprint in the US). Man they've banked company on this, hope it goes well for them.


----------



## editor (Mar 10, 2009)

Structaural said:


> adverts for it are appearing too (Sprint in the US). Man they've banked company on this, hope it goes well for them.


Yep - the stakes are very very high on this one...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 10, 2009)

If Palm pull this off it will be a spectacular about turn!


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 10, 2009)

More Pre hype from Bono's mate (with a bunch of disclaimers from Palm saying that it's too early to make comparisons with released products) - http://investor.palm.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-09-48035


----------



## paolo (Mar 10, 2009)

$84m won't last long... still sailing close to the wind I'd say.

I really hope the gamble pays off. In a sea of me-too-smartphone dross, the Pre is something bringing some genuinely new ideas. Would be a terrible injustice if Palm fails whilst the likes of Samsung, LG et al keep trotting out uninspired touch-screen nonsense.


----------



## editor (Mar 10, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> I really hope the gamble pays off. In a sea of me-too-smartphone dross, the Pre is something bringing some genuinely new ideas.


It'll be good news for iPhone users too if the Palm Pre proves a hit. They've already come up with a load of fresh ideas that no one else had thought of, and the more true innovators in the market, the better for all.


----------



## dweller (Mar 11, 2009)

editor said:


> It'll be good news for iPhone users too if the Palm Pre proves a hit. They've already come up with a load of fresh ideas that no one else had thought of, and the more true innovators in the market, the better for all.



Perhaps LFO should do the pre's promotion music.

"There are many imitators, but we are the true creators. We're back "


----------



## paolo (Mar 11, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> More Pre hype from Bono's mate (with a bunch of disclaimers from Palm saying that it's too early to make comparisons with released products) - http://investor.palm.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-09-48035



The product, it seems, will be able to stand up for itself, so it's a bit crap when you have to make an SEC filing fessing up to talking shit.


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> The product, it seems, will be able to stand up for itself, so it's a bit crap when you have to make an SEC filing fessing up to talking shit.


Yeah because Steve Jobs & Co have never, ever employed any kind of hype for their products at all, ever, have they?

*erects crash barriers outside store
*starts countdown
*high fives
*runs around the block



The Elevation Partners guy is an idiot but he's doing a grand job of garnering pre-release headlines.


----------



## paolo (Mar 11, 2009)

Nokia 'incentivised' (100 Euros) people to queue in Regent Street for the 5800. Nokia didn't need to make an investor declaration about it. Subtle difference between hype and making statements that could mislead investors. It _is_ subtle at times, but there is a difference.


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> Nokia 'incentivised' (100 Euros) people to queue in Regent Street for the 5800.


Exactly the same thing happened for the iPhone launch in Poland too, and quite probably elsewhere.


paolo999 said:


> Subtle difference between hype and making statements that could mislead investors.


Seeing as Palm's retraction for the comments mace by their over-excited _investor _ was swift, I don't think anyone was misled.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 11, 2009)

editor said:


> Exactly the same thing happened for the iPhone launch in Poland too, and quite probably elsewhere.


Though that was the local telco, Orange, not the handset manufacturer.


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Though that was the local telco, Orange, not the handset manufacturer.


I didn't actually say that Apple were responsible. 

They certainly co-ordinate chanting lines of fuckwits outside their stores before product launches and pay their staff to whoop like hyperactive hyenas and charge around blocks high fiving people, though.

It's not a job I'd fancy, to be honest.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 11, 2009)

editor said:


> I didn't actually say that Apple were responsible- although they could have been.


And I didn't say you did. 

Elevation were bigging up the Pre prior to them selling a load of their Palm stock so it was fairly important that Palm cleared things up before the offering.


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Elevation were bigging up the Pre prior to them selling a load of their Palm stock so it was fairly important that Palm cleared things up before the offering.


I don't think they could have done it much quicker to be honest.


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2009)

Looks like it's going to be out on O2 in the UK (which suits me just fine).



> Carriers and Palm have been absolutely silent on the matter, but let's be honest: there's very likely been one of the most heated, no-holds-barred wars over the past few months to score European exclusivity on the Pre since the Storm and the iPhone -- and with launches broadly expected by mid-year, time is running out to secure a deal.
> 
> Spanish media is reporting that Telefonica has now locked up that deal, not just for Spain and the UK (where it operates as O2) but for Latin America as well under the Movistar brand. If true, that'd be a nice, big "screw you" to archrival Vodafone, which has the mighty Storm / Magic two-pack under its belt.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 11, 2009)

And me! Already on O2 via the sim only deal so either I get it unlocked or on contract but either way it'll mean no pissing about porting my number.


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2009)

Might prove tempting for existing iPhone O2 users looking for something new too....


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 11, 2009)

editor said:


> Might prove tempting for existing iPhone O2 users looking for something new too....



Hmmm yeah especially early adopters who'll be at the end of their contract when the Pre launches...


----------



## paolo (Mar 11, 2009)

Blimey - wasn't expecting that!

Wonder if they'll sell them without a contract, but will take a standard or iPhone O2 SIM?


----------



## Sunray (Mar 11, 2009)

Can't see them going cheaper, so expect the 18 month 30 and 35 quid a month deals they are selling the iPhone on.  Started to make a mint on those deals if the number of iPhones i've seen people using on the tube in recent months is anything to go by.  Prolly why they got the deal.  Saves them having to compete on the contract.

600min 500text, unlimited web plus the wifi hotspots for 35.


----------



## Structaural (Mar 12, 2009)

They should sell it cheaper than the iphone if they want to position themselves as somewhere between a smartphone and an ordinary phone. Which is what they were saying they wanted to do.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 12, 2009)

So, someone walks into an O2 store, and sees that they can choose between the Pre, or the new (if the June rumours are true) iPhone.

Palm is fucked if that's the case, even if the Pre is technically a far superior product I reckon more people will pick the iPhone.  Palm just hasn't got the "cool" factor.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 12, 2009)

I think that entirely depends on how well its sold. 

The Pre looks pretty good and its merged interaction system may well appeal to the facebook , social networking crowd.  While these applications are on the iPhone they are not integrated like they are on the Pre.

Lots of the o2 shops I've been in now have live working phones on open demo.  Thats how I had a go at the n5800 (bad).  So people can compare them all for themselves, no salesman involved.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 12, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I think that entirely depends on how well its sold.
> 
> The Pre looks pretty good and its merged interaction system may well appeal to the facebook , social networking crowd.  While these applications are on the iPhone they are not integrated like they are on the Pre.



I guess it'll come down to how many people want their phone as a tool, and how many want a fashion accessory...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 12, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I think that entirely depends on how well its sold.
> 
> The Pre looks pretty good and its merged interaction system may well appeal to the facebook , social networking crowd.  While these applications are on the iPhone they are not integrated like they are on the Pre.
> 
> Lots of the o2 shops I've been in now have live working phones on open demo.  Thats how I had a go at the n5800 (bad).  So people can compare them all for themselves, no salesman involved.



Indeed. I think the social media luvvies really shouldn't be underestimated. And I also agree about the instore change too, its much better to try out the phones than have some salesperson talking shit about it...


----------



## g force (Mar 12, 2009)

O2....bugger......no reception in flat, no reception at folks place in Brum. 

Massive error to lock the handest into a single operator across LatAm, Spain and the UK IMO. So much for consumer choice having to take a certain handset on a particular network.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 12, 2009)

editor said:


> Interesting:


Well, the event went ahead and they did make one announcement.

They said what the Sprint call plans were going to be. (See the link if you care).

Still no date, no price.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 12, 2009)

Yeah I'm noticing a slight but growing irritation with Palm just re-showing the same information again and again on a number of blogs and twitter feeds...


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 12, 2009)

This guy thinks it'll be their downfall.
I don't agree but it is a bit wearying.

With Apple showing their software newness next week, Palm are going to need something solid soon to keep the momentum.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 12, 2009)

Crazy.   Surely they can say when its going to be available.  

I'm starting to Doom monger now.  I've a feeling that something isn't working properly and they need to delay it, perhaps for a component change or lack of supply or something. Something is causing the fear and they daren't say because all eyes are on their every move now.  

If they are to make good on the 1st half of this year, they have 14 weeks left.  If they are tight lipped then its 1st July and even they aren't sure if they can make good on that. 14 weeks to go they should have the boxes stacking up in the warehouse by now.  If they don't they are going to launch a vaporware product.  One that is listed for sale but you can't buy one for love nor money, like the Wii at launch.


----------



## paolo (Mar 12, 2009)

There was talk awhile back of a supply problem with their choice of display. No idea how true that was.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 12, 2009)

I reckon if Palm can't get it in the shops before Apple launch the new iPhone, they're fucked.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 12, 2009)

It might have been better to do that 'Somethings coming and its amazing....' count down marketing thing.  Till they could announce it with a known date for sale.


----------



## paolo (Mar 12, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I reckon if Palm can't get it in the shops before Apple launch the new iPhone, they're fucked.



That, and the issue of cash burn. I wonder at what point the revenue ramp reaches a point where they are covering their cost base again - which is what they need to stem the blood loss.


----------



## editor (Mar 12, 2009)

Seeing as Palm managed to keep both the new phone and the new OS under wraps for so long, I'm not going to pay much attention to net rumours about supposed delays.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 12, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> This guy thinks it'll be their downfall.
> I don't agree but it is a bit wearying.
> 
> With Apple showing their software newness next week, Palm are going to need something solid soon to keep the momentum.


 
Totally agree.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 12, 2009)

If Palm don't hit their stated first half of this year they'll lose significant good will. 

Sunray, it was reported a few weeks back that testing wasn't going to plan due to finding a security problem. The next round of testing is due to start beginning of April (this is the reason I don't but into the idea of it coming out early).


----------



## Sunray (Mar 13, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> If Palm don't hit their stated first half of this year they'll lose significant good will.
> 
> Sunray, it was reported a few weeks back that testing wasn't going to plan due to finding a security problem. The next round of testing is due to start beginning of April (this is the reason I don't but into the idea of it coming out early).



If find it hard to imagine that any single feature would cost them an entire months work to fix.


----------



## paolo (Mar 13, 2009)

Sunray said:


> If find it hard to imagine that any single feature would cost them an entire months work to fix.



Not a security issue at least. Those can usually be plugged very quickly in my experience, even if you have to go for a crude solution.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 13, 2009)

Sunray said:


> If find it hard to imagine that any single feature would cost them an entire months work to fix.



I don't think it did just that Palm scheduled the next round of testing later as a result of it...


----------



## paolo (Mar 13, 2009)

It's worth tempering the frustration with the fact that - if Palm are to make a go of this - it's not really 'us' they need to care about in the medium term. Sure we've seen the early demos and are waiting with baited breath, but for the volume of sales they need*, the majority of the required audience probably doesn't give a shit about on-time, or late or whatever, at the moment.

* I've no idea what they need actually.... maybe they'd survive for a bit just playing the N9x Gear-Head type space?


----------



## editor (Mar 13, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> If Palm don't hit their stated first half of this year they'll lose significant good will.
> 
> Sunray, it was reported a few weeks back that testing wasn't going to plan due to finding a security problem. The next round of testing is due to start beginning of April (this is the reason I don't but into the idea of it coming out early).


Have you a source for that please?

Not sure how they can lose 'goodwill'. Most punters are blissfully unaware of the Pre and will make their mind up in the usual way when they go in the shop. The earlier the Pre is in the shops the better, but it's not going to annoy ordinary people if it's later than expected.


----------



## g force (Mar 13, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Totally agree.



I think that guy's being a bit of a twat...the 'launch' merely said "this is coming" and had to be timed with CES to start the buzz. The fact people were jizzing themselevs via blogs, twitter etc isn't Pal's problem, it did the job perfectly. That's part of the IT/tech media's problem it constantly wants news to fill its blogs and then gets the hump if they don't get it.

The biggest issue isn't customer perception because as other have noted the maintream consumer has little idea the Pre is coming, there's been no marketing push etc because there's no release date to work to.

However, Palm does need to get its act together because of the money. They're tearing through the cash they raised and in the current economy no supplier will take Palm's word (a company losing shed loads) that the new phone will ease cash flow and enable them to pay for kit needed to build more Pre's.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 13, 2009)

Good will from the very people that are hyping it up now.


----------



## editor (Mar 14, 2009)

Interesting update. The Pre's browser looks great and its four times faster than the iPhone's according to this:


> As it stands, the best shot you have at a "full" web browsing experiencing is with Apple's iPhone. Granted, Opera Mini ain't half bad, and Fennec (er, Mobile Firefox, holds a lot of promise, but it's hard to argue with the sheer performance numbers associated with Safari. That said, it looks like Cupertino has its work cut out for it upon the release of Palm's Pre. During a recent webcast, viewers were treated to a sneak peek at the Pre loading up Big12Sports.com. Said site is pretty intensive to load, and even on WiFi it takes well over 20 seconds to completely pull up on Apple's darling. The site took around eight seconds to finalize on the Pre, suggesting that it either has a wicked fast browser _or_ caching abilities, both of which we could learn to appreciate. Hit the read link for a peek at the video, because -- you know -- seeing is believing.


http://jkontherun.com/2009/03/12/palm-pre-webcast-tidbit-browser-nearly-4x-faster/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 16, 2009)

Apparently the Pre's spec sheet has been 'leaked'. No new newness however...getting a little bored of this now, new actual info Palm or release the damn thing!


----------



## editor (Mar 16, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Apparently the Pre's spec sheet has been 'leaked'. No new newness however...getting a little bored of this now, new actual info Palm or release the damn thing!


They said "the first half of 2009" and by all accounts they're still on schedule.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 16, 2009)

It didn't become available today (or yesterday), so that's another rumour squashed.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 16, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> It didn't become available today (or yesterday), so that's another rumour squashed.



Yeah but who in their right mind believed this thing would be on the shelves before April?


----------



## editor (Mar 16, 2009)

It's been in London already!


> Last Thursday night about 400 people gathered at Shoreditch House in London's trendy East End, to celebrate T3's annual Hot 100 list. Crowned as our number one gadget, the Palm Pre made its first UK appearance after being announced at the Las Vegas trade show CES - and even had its own Palm-hired bodyguard.
> http://www.t3.com/news/palm-pre-had...100-party?=38390&cid=OTC-RSS&attr=T3-Main-RSS


Their stocks continue to rise too:





> Shares of handset maker Palm Inc. charged up 7.5 percent in premarket trading Friday after an analyst upgraded the company, saying its new operating system has boosted the company's potential to catch up with smartphone industry leaders Apple Inc. and Research in Motion Ltd.


http://www.mobile-tech-today.com/news/Palm-Shares-Leap-on-Upgrade/story.xhtml?story_id=100008D3P3LW


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 16, 2009)

256mb confirmed ram, Q2 release in the US all good news but for the battery, it's the same as the Centro which is shite...


----------



## editor (Mar 16, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> 256mb confirmed ram, Q2 release in the US all good news but for the battery, it's the same as the Centro which is shite...


True, but it's using a different CPU.

The main specs have been on the Palm site for ages. Where are you getting these new ones?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 16, 2009)

BGR via the My Pre twitter feed (would link but posting from my Centro). This is a Sprint road map leak...


----------



## Sunray (Mar 17, 2009)

editor said:


> Interesting update. The Pre's browser looks great and its four times faster than the iPhone's according to this:
> http://jkontherun.com/2009/03/12/palm-pre-webcast-tidbit-browser-nearly-4x-faster/



Thats because it uses the TI OMAP CPU which is based on the ARM Cortex A8 CPU, something that can be run at 800Mhz and has a higher IPC than the ARM11 clocked at a lowly 412Mhz on the iPhone.

Nothing very new, both the Pre and the iPhone browsers are based upon webkit partly developed by Apple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit).  I doubt that Palm have done much to the browser.


----------



## editor (Mar 18, 2009)

Another Pre video here: http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9710/sprint-palm-pre-webinar-videos-posted/


----------



## editor (Mar 18, 2009)

I've just watched all of that video - and boy is the interface _fast_. I WANT!


----------



## paolo (Mar 18, 2009)

You're now commenting on your own posts.

e2a... I've done this myself (on different subjects). Something to self-check.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 18, 2009)

Nice vid, really hope the battery use works out well enough to run the thing properly.


----------



## Structaural (Mar 18, 2009)

At least you can swap it out if it dies.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 18, 2009)

Structaural said:


> At least you can swap it out if it dies.


This presumes the user is organised enough to keep 2 batteries charged.... 
(I know I'm not)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 18, 2009)

Crispy said:


> This presumes the user is organised enough to keep 2 batteries charged....
> (I know I'm not)



Also, I'm trying to bring down the number of things I carry about...


----------



## Structaural (Mar 18, 2009)

Yeah true, can't say I would, I keep forgetting to charge my extra battery pack.


----------



## sumimasen (Mar 20, 2009)

The Pre, any release date rumours yet? Can't find any..


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> The Pre, any release date rumours yet? Can't find any..


Still the 'first half of 2009'.


----------



## sumimasen (Mar 20, 2009)

I hope Palm see the sense in releasing it before iPhone v3, I want it bad!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 20, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> I hope Palm see the sense in releasing it before iPhone v3, I want it bad!



If they don't, they're fucked.


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> If they don't, they're fucked.


Why? It still has some great features that the iPhone can't match.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 20, 2009)

editor said:


> Why? It still has some great features that the iPhone can't match.



In reality the hype will over power any coverage it needs to generate the sales it needs to survive until the end of the year.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 20, 2009)

editor said:


> Why? It still has some great features that the iPhone can't match.



Doesn't matter.  They need to get it out before it get's swamped under a wave of iHype.  No matter how good the Pre is, it's not an _iPre_.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 20, 2009)

They're bleeding money, have no real hope to survive other than the Pre to be a success...


----------



## sumimasen (Mar 21, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Doesn't matter.  They need to get it out before it get's swamped under a wave of iHype.  No matter how good the Pre is, it's not an _iPre_.



Exactly.  The Pre looks very exciting, but I don't think I can hold out if they're going to make me wait.  I'll just think 'fuck it', and then get the iPhone.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 21, 2009)

I think there's a few people who are gonna make exactly that decision if the Pre slips...


----------



## paolo (Mar 21, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> They're bleeding money, have no real hope to survive other than the Pre to be a success...



As long as the tech isn't fundamentally flawed (and no reason to believe it is), someone would pick up the remains. Dell, HP, whoever. The Pre & WebOS will survive even if Palm don't.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 22, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> As long as the tech isn't fundamentally flawed (and no reason to believe it is), someone would pick up the remains. Dell, HP, whoever. The Pre & WebOS will survive even if Palm don't.



How many companies have the cash reserves to make any of Palm in this current economic climate?


----------



## paolo (Mar 22, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> How many companies have the cash reserves to make any of Palm in this current economic climate?



Depends on how far the stock falls. Wouldn't have to be a company either - could even be private equity.

One way or another someone would pick it up at some point. Not many quick routes in to that market!


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2009)

The Pre's still garnering a lot of press attention. Business Week have just written a substantial and very positive three page  article on the handset and the firm's prospects.





> As recently as late 2008, Pandora Networks' Chief Technology Officer Tom Conrad still had big doubts about the prospects for smartphone maker Palm. In November, Conrad was among a coterie of software developers invited to Palm (PALM) headquarters in Sunnyvale, Calif., to take an early, up-close look at an operating system for use in the company's phones. "I was totally skeptical when I walked in," says Conrad, who met Palm execs along with representatives of MySpace (NWS), Intuit (INTU), movie site Fandango, and Epocrates, a maker of mobile software for physicians.
> 
> ...Conrad still had a fondness for Palm products and figured the brand still had cachet with consumers. "If by some miracle they had come up with something special, I knew there would be a market for them," he remembers thinking. And Palm delivered. After two days of briefings about its WebOS software, "I left a total believer."


This is rather interesting: 





> Normally, developers flock to devices with the most market share. But many developers contacted by BusinessWeek say they would rather write for Palm than other platforms such as Microsoft (MSFT) Windows and in some cases, Google's (GOOG) Android. "From my point of view, Palm is No. 2," says Ge Wang, co-founder of Smule, a maker of popular iPhone apps.


http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/mar2009/tc20090323_446801.htm


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 24, 2009)

*Dell buy of Palm would make sense, say analysts*



paolo999 said:


> As long as the tech isn't fundamentally flawed (and no reason to believe it is), someone would pick up the remains. Dell, HP, whoever. The Pre & WebOS will survive even if Palm don't.



Looks like you might be on to something.



> Whether a deal by Dell Inc. to buy Palm Inc. is truly in the offing, it would make sense for both companies, three analysts said Monday.
> 
> 
> Still, at least one additional analyst said the time has already passed for such a deal, which was first rumored at least two years ago.
> ...



Dell apparently has 9 billion in cash reserves and wants to get into the smartphone market. Palm having a great product and new OS but going down the pan might be a good buy for them if they've that kind of cash floating about...


----------



## paolo (Mar 25, 2009)

Palm will need to keep their stock price vaguely stable and not get to the point where shareholders lose their bottle (i.e. wide open to a hostile bid).

The good news - if my speculative scenario happens - is that there won't really a big difference to the consumer. The tech will hit the streets, it just might have a different badge on it if the cash scenario gets tricky. In fact, in Europe at least, Dell probably has better brand recognition, so a takeover could be a boost.


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2009)

Looks like there's still plenty of consumer interest in the Pre:





> Is there still enthusiasm for the forthcoming Palm Pre, facing a growing field of rival smartphones and stingy consumer budgets? Yes, according to a new analysis by Web measurement service Compete.
> 
> Despite the weak economy, little advertising and no confirmed release date, data suggests the device hasn't disappeared from consumers' minds. Since Palm announced it would release a new smartphone at the Consumer Electronics Show in January, traffic to informational pages on Palm.com and wireless carrier Sprint.com indicates that people are still intrigued by the Pre.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Mar 25, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> They're bleeding money, have no real hope to survive other than the Pre to be a success...


They are, but Wall Street remains convinced they're on to a winner.



> Palm shares jump as investors ignore losses
> All eyes remain on launch of Pre smart phone later this year
> 
> Palm Inc.'s share prices jumped Friday as investors ignored lower-than-expected sales and a deep net loss for its third fiscal quarter, choosing instead to focus on the upcoming launch of the Pre smart phone later this year.
> ...


----------



## Sunray (Mar 25, 2009)

A loss is where you spending money without hope of getting it back.

An investment is where you are spending money with a very high probability of getting more back.


----------



## Structaural (Mar 26, 2009)

I heard Dell might buy Palm. Talk about killing your brand 

It's the only way Dell will get into the market though:

dells_iphone_killer_rejected_by_carriers_as_too_dulll


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2009)

Tease, tease, tease...


> That Pre Sure Got Some Powerful Magic, Boy…
> 
> It has not yet been given a price or a release date, but Palm’s forthcoming Pre handset continues to have a remarkably restorative effect on the company’s share price. It wasn’t so long ago that Palm shares were trading just above a dollar. Today, they’re hovering around $8.67, bouyed up by little more than the device’s Consumer Electronics Show debut, an uneventful media Webcast, some hyperbolic remarks from one of the company’s investors and the enthusiasm of a few bullish analysts.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sunray (Mar 26, 2009)

Be nice to see a slimmer touch screen only version.  I'm really not convinced by that keyboard.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Be nice to see a slimmer touch screen only version.  I'm really not convinced by that keyboard.


It'll be better than the iPhone's. 

It's bigger than the one on the Centro and I have no problems with that, and almost anything's got to be better than touching a lifeless piece of flat glass, IMO.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 26, 2009)

editor said:


> It'll be better than the iPhone's.
> 
> It's bigger than the one on the Centro and I have no problems with that, and almost anything's got to be better than touching a lifeless piece of flat glass, IMO.



After many months of use I am very happy with not having to physically press anything.  I don't have to hold the device with any force when I am using it and I can really go much faster because of that.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2009)

Sunray said:


> After many months of use I am very happy with not having to physically press anything.  I don't have to hold the device with any force when I am using it and I can really go much faster because of that.


Each to their own of course, but there's a reason why virtual keyboards on laptops and desktops have never caught on and why Blackberrys are so popular with heavy email users.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 26, 2009)

editor said:


> Each to their own of course, but there's a reason why virtual keyboards on laptops and desktops have never caught on and why Blackberrys are so popular with heavy email users.



The blackberry keyboard is very good.  I've had a go on that and its a nice size.  That Pre keyboard I think is pushing it, its just too diddy for me.

Watch people use it. Its clearly not comfortable.  

I'll give you a race when its released, I bet I can beat you one fingered on my iphone with the correction off.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 26, 2009)

This is why I like "landscape" slide out keyboards, they just have a bit more room and are thus much easier to use...


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2009)

Sunray said:


> That Pre keyboard I think is pushing it, its just too diddy for me.


You've never even _touched_ the Pre, so I'm not sure how you declare it to be inferior to the iPhone's virtual keyboard.

The iPhone keypad might be fine for short messages, but it's just plain uncomfortable bashing away at flat, untactile glass for long.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 26, 2009)

don't bash, a light touch is all that's needed


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2009)

Crispy said:


> don't bash, a light touch is all that's needed


It's still an uncomfortable way to write anything over a short message or two. That's why keyboards have proper tactile feedback, innit? Besides, some people prefer to bash.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Mar 26, 2009)

it's funny..my head says that surely flat glass screens are the way forward (no moving parts) but typing just feels so much better on real keys, for me/for now


----------



## Sunray (Mar 26, 2009)

editor said:


> It's still an uncomfortable way to write anything over a short message or two. That's why keyboards have proper tactile feedback, innit? Besides, some people prefer to bash.



Experience over the last 8 months tells me different. The very same could be said having to press those tiny keys.  There is no room for error either, its that key or your wrong.  On a virtual one there is room for error as it works out the most likely button due to area covered and position.

I'm happy to write long messages without a second thought, its neither hard or tiresome.


----------



## paolo (Mar 26, 2009)

I posted on urban for six months from my iPhone. You won't see any shortening of posts because of that. It's fine.

And it's important to note that a mini hardware set of QWERTY clicky buttons is very very different to a PC Keyboard. To think of them as having the same qualities is, well, wrong.

As I've said before, you can tap at the glass. You tap on a PC keyboard. You *press* on the mini buttons. I don't like the pressing buttons thing personally.

There's a reason PC keyboards don't have clicky pressy keys


----------



## jæd (Mar 26, 2009)

editor said:


> Each to their own of course, but there's a reason why virtual keyboards on laptops and desktops have never caught on and why Blackberrys are so popular with heavy email users.



Probably because there haven't been any decent multi-touch virtual keyboards around. Touch keyboards on a desktop would be a bit daft, although the HP Touchsmart is quite cool...



Sunray said:


> Experience over the last 8 months tells me different. The very same could be said having to press those tiny keys.  There is no room for error either, its that key or your wrong.  On a virtual one there is room for error as it works out the most likely button due to area covered and position.
> 
> I'm happy to write long messages without a second thought, its neither hard or tiresome.



Right at the moment the only thing that limits the length of messages on my iPhone is the itty-bitty screen size... Each to their own...!


----------



## editor (Mar 27, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> it's funny..my head says that surely flat glass screens are the way forward (no moving parts) but typing just feels so much better on real keys, for me/for now


It's the same for most people, and that's something that's been backed up by independent research. Funnily enough, the only people I've ever heard insist that the iPhone keyboard is in fact superior to a hard-key QWERTY phone are ...iPhone fans.





> *iPhone and Hard-Key QWERTY Texting Was Equally Rapid, but iPhone Owners Made More Errors*
> When compared to hard-key QWERTY phone owners using their personal phones, iPhone owners' rate of text entry on the iPhone was equally rapid. However, iPhone owners made more errors during text entry and also left significantly more errors in the completed messages.
> 
> While iPhone owners made an average of 5.6 errors/message on their own phone, hard-key QWERTY owners made an average of 2.1 errors/message on their own phone, p < .01. iPhone owners also left an average of 2.6 errors/completed message created on the iPhone compared to an average of 0.8 errors/completed message left by hard-key QWERTY phone owners on their own phone.
> ...





Sunray said:


> The very same could be said having to press those tiny keys.  There is no room for error either, its that key or your wrong.  On a virtual one there is room for error as it works out the most likely button due to area covered and position..


That doesn't make any sense. A hardware keyboard is far more accurate (see link above).


----------



## Crispy (Mar 27, 2009)

Meh. I've got no real complaints about the iPod touch keyboard. I post on urban all the time and I rarely have to go back and correct mistakes. It certainly makes the device less bulky. If the Pre turns out to be as good as it promises to be, I may well get one. But I would rather have a slimmer device with a touch keyboard, as long as it's as good as the apple one. This post typed on my iPod and there's no discomfort and I've only had to go back for two mistakes.


----------



## editor (Mar 27, 2009)

Crispy said:


> This post typed on my iPod and there's no discomfort and I've only had to go back for two mistakes.


I think the iPhone keyboard is _absolutely fine_ for short messages and emails, and certainly better than predictive text numeric keypads.

But, like I've been saying all along, a flat, non-tactile glass virtual screen simply can't match a proper hardware keyboard for any kind of sustained use - and all the research I've seen backs that up.

If you're only likely to be knocking out short emails, then I'm sure the iPhone keyboard will be fine for most users, but I'd never recommend them for anyone - like me - who is sometimes called upon to write lengthier articles on their handsets (I've written 500+ word live launch reports on my Centro).


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 27, 2009)

editor said:


> That TealOS (webOS copy) interface/skin for older Palms really is superb. The real thing is going to be awesome!


Looks like Palm didn't like it, as they've requested it be removed and from Monday TealOS will no longer be available.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/27/palm-issues-takedown-for-tealos/

I guess they have to protect their IP, even if it hurts their own customers.


----------



## editor (Mar 28, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Looks like Palm didn't like it, as they've requested it be removed and from Monday TealOS will no longer be available.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/27/palm-issues-takedown-for-tealos/
> 
> I guess they have to protect their IP, even if it hurts their own customers.


I'm amazed Palm let them get away with it for so long, to be honest, so good on 'em.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 28, 2009)

Bit Apple like though aint it..?


----------



## editor (Mar 28, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Bit Apple like though aint it..?


You think Apple would let a commercial, third party company release a total clone of a forthcoming operating system, and then give them several months to sell it before asking them to stop - and even giving them a grace period?

LOL.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 28, 2009)

kid_eternity said:


> bit apple like though aint it..?


----------



## editor (Mar 28, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


>


Does this sound like Apple - by far one of the most litigious tech companies on the planet -  to you? 





> Even though Teal Technology still does not make any statements regarding the upcoming demise of TealOS, I managed to get my hands on an insider who was willing to give us all a bit of further insight into what really happened.
> 
> Cutting a long story short: my initial analysis turned out to be spot-on. There were no “attack lawyers” involved…instead, it was all about future sales opportunities:
> Without listing any detailed concerns, Palm politely but firmly asked us to remove it from our site and to stop distributing it. Since we eventually at some point want to develop for the Pre and webOS, we agreed to remove it to preserve the relationship with Palm. ​http://tamspalm.tamoggemon.com/2009/03/28/news-from-tealos/


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 29, 2009)

More rumours about a release date for the Pre (in the US). Based on tweets from an alleged beta-tester, so quite possibly closer to the truth than any of the previous rumours.

Thursday 30th April.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 29, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


>



Thing is Palm acting all Apple like is probably a welcome change for their fanbois. It shows they've realised they're running a business that wants to make some serious cash. And this means they'll actually compete properly rather than limping along like some sad old hasbeen!


----------



## editor (Mar 29, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Thing is Palm acting all Apple like is probably a welcome change for their fanbois.


You're trolling, right?

Palm haven't even called in their lawyers.


----------



## editor (Mar 30, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> More rumours about a release date for the Pre (in the US). Based on tweets from an alleged beta-tester, so quite possibly closer to the truth than any of the previous rumours.
> 
> Thursday 30th April.


If that leak is true (and I have my doubts) then the Pre was "still going strong" after 8 hours of mixed battery use - which would be impressive.

More: http://mobilitytoday.com/news/009422/palm_pre_release_date


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 30, 2009)

editor said:


> You're trolling, right?
> 
> Palm haven't even called in their lawyers.



Eh?? Not at all!

Like I said Palm getting more competent would be welcomed by the fanbois because it'd be an indicator they really do have the balls to run the company properly rather than limp on like an aging rock star using his back catalogue as justification for still being noteworthy...


----------



## editor (Mar 30, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Eh?? Not at all!
> 
> Like I said Palm getting more competent would be welcomed by the fanbois because it'd be an indicator they really do have the balls to run the company properly rather than limp on like an aging rock star using his back catalogue as justification for still being noteworthy...


I've really no idea what you're on about.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 30, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> More rumours about a release date for the Pre (in the US). Based on tweets from an alleged beta-tester, so quite possibly closer to the truth than any of the previous rumours.
> 
> Thursday 30th April.



If that is true the then there is a real chance that it might actually arrive over here this year.   If they waited till the last moment, i'd have some doubts that Palm could make enough for the US and Europe.  How long did the Centro take to appear here?


----------



## jæd (Mar 30, 2009)

Sunray said:


> If that is true the then there is a real chance that it might actually arrive over here this year.   If they waited till the last moment, i'd have some doubts that Palm could make enough for the US and Europe.  How long did the Centro take to appear here?



Not likely to be real since this would be the last beta test the guy ("twitterer"  ) would be on...


----------



## jæd (Mar 30, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Eh?? Not at all!
> 
> Like I said Palm getting more competent would be welcomed by the fanbois because it'd be an indicator they really do have the balls to run the company properly rather than limp on like an aging rock star using his back catalogue as justification for still being noteworthy...



Heh... Palm finally getting their shit together... Would be good to see...


----------



## Crispy (Mar 30, 2009)

editor said:


> I've really no idea what you're on about.


He's saying:

If palm were on the way out, then they'd not have the will to bother with things like this. Their willingness to clamp down on this project indicates a company in goog health.

Personally, I think being able to develop the Pre and its OS is a better indication.


----------



## editor (Mar 30, 2009)

Crispy said:


> He's saying:
> 
> If palm were on the way out, then they'd not have the will to bother with things like this. Their willingness to clamp down on this project indicates a company in goog health.


That logic doesn't exactly hold true when it comes to Apple though, does it? They're raking cash in hand over fist and are still one of the most litigious tech companies on the planet.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 30, 2009)

That's exactly the point 

Broken company on its way out: Won't bother enforcing its IP rights.

Strong company: Will bother

It's a simple argument, although not a very strong one. Actual company performance is a better indicator.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 30, 2009)

jæd said:


> Heh... Palm finally getting their shit together... Would be good to see...



Exactly.


----------



## editor (Mar 30, 2009)

Crispy said:


> That's exactly the point
> 
> Broken company on its way out: Won't bother enforcing its IP rights.
> 
> ...


It's simple argument alright, but sadly it doesn't bear much relation to reality.

With a copyright infringement as blatant as this one, even the most troubled company would have been quick to get the lawyers in and banked some much-needed funds.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 30, 2009)

That's not quite how the TealOS guys said it but there you go...

Anyway, moving on from that dead end...

It seems the April 30th (I call bullshit, and still stick to my previous view of June at the earliest for launch) launch story is still going...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 30, 2009)

Interesting speculation on WebOS coming to a netbook...



> Mark Spoonauer of Laptop Magazine has written up an interesting article in which he gives 5 reasons why Palm's WebOS could shake up the netbook world.
> 
> 
> Netbooks have been popping out all over the place lately. The Asus Eee PC sold like hotcakes and other companies have been putting out netbooks since. I picked up a Dell Mini 9 myself, and I love that little thing. Netbooks are small and lightweight, making them much more portable than the average laptop. I love netbooks but some of them are pretty expensive, depending on the amount of memory and the type of processor you get. I would love to have a netbook running Palm's WebOS.
> ...


----------



## Crispy (Mar 30, 2009)

Only if they license the os to someone else. Palm have their hands entirely full with the pre right now.


----------



## editor (Mar 30, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Only if they license the os to someone else. Palm have their hands entirely full with the pre right now.


They've gone on record to say that they're currently working on several other handsets besides the Pre.

Considering the way that they kept their massively innovative Pre completely under wraps for so long, I wouldn't be surprised if they had other big surprises up their sleeves. A netbook running webOS? Hell, why not!* Besides, I bet they still want to prove that Foleo point.

(*athough I'm not convinced there's onein the wings right now)


----------



## Sunray (Mar 31, 2009)

editor said:


> They've gone on record to say that they're currently working on several other handsets besides the Pre.
> 
> Considering the way that they kept their massively innovative Pre completely under wraps for so long, I wouldn't be surprised if they had other big surprises up their sleeves. A netbook running webOS? Hell, why not!* Besides, I bet they still want to prove that *Foleo point *.
> 
> (*athough I'm not convinced there's onein the wings right now)



It failed because intel produced a low powered x86 chip.  Is Palm going to burn a few million dollars at some airfield?


----------



## editor (Mar 31, 2009)

Sunray said:


> It failed because intel produced a low powered x86 chip.  Is Palm going to burn a few million dollars at some airfield?


It failed because Palm got cold feet for a variety  of reasons. Most of the early reviews were very positive and they were well ahead of the game with the concept of a small netbook concept.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 31, 2009)

The Foleo was dropped with good reason, it could have never succeeded given the rise of netbooks.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 31, 2009)

editor said:


> It failed because Palm got cold feet for a variety  of reasons. Most of the early reviews were very positive and they were well ahead of the game with the concept of a small netbook concept.


But utterly failed to twig that people wanted a computer, not a big keyboard and screen for theirr phone.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 31, 2009)

Oh man, I was gonna delete my comment, really can't be bothered to go round and round the Foleo crap again!


----------



## Crispy (Mar 31, 2009)

ok, let's not go there


----------



## editor (Mar 31, 2009)

Crispy said:


> But utterly failed to twig that people wanted a computer, not a big keyboard and screen for theirr phone.


You can't possibly know that for sure because it didn't get released. It *did* pick up some positive reviews though and although netbooks refined and improved the concept considerably, who knows what apps and innovation may have been around the corner. I would have bought one as there was nothing else like it at the time and it would have been perfect for me for covering news stories.


Kid_Eternity said:


> The Foleo was dropped with good reason, it could have never succeeded given the rise of netbooks.


Happy to end this off topic debate here, but would like to point out that the Foleo happened way before netbooks appeared.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 31, 2009)

editor said:


> would like to point out that the Foleo happened way before netbooks appeared.


Palm Foleo announced 30th May 2007, cancelled 4th Sept 2007
Asus Eee 701 announced early June 2007, available Oct 2007


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 31, 2009)

Let's move on!


----------



## editor (Mar 31, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Palm Foleo announced 30th May 2007, cancelled 4th Sept 2007
> Asus Eee 701 announced early June 2007, available Oct 2007


Five months is a _very long time_ in the electronics industry. Can we now move on? Please.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 31, 2009)

editor said:


> Five months is a _very long time_ in the electronics industry. Can we now move on? Please.



Stop bloody replying to it and we will!


----------



## Sunray (Apr 1, 2009)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aXkaV43qbehs&refer=home

It really needs to pull its finger out in the manufacturing stakes according to that, 8 million Pre's to justify its current stock price.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 1, 2009)

Looks like Palm are going to announce the release date and the price for the Pre today.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/01/palm-release-date-pricing-announcement-later-today/


----------



## g force (Apr 1, 2009)

Really on April 1st?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 1, 2009)

g force said:


> Really on April 1st?



"Hahahaha, you're all sooooo gullible!  We're bankrupt really, but hey, it's been a laugh"


----------



## Sunray (Apr 1, 2009)

g force said:


> Really on April 1st?



If they make a mistake they can always go 'fooled you!'


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 1, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> "Hahahaha, you're all sooooo gullible!  We're bankrupt really, but hey, it's been a laugh"


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 1, 2009)

You know the Palm Pre may actually end up being quite cool in that it'll be different; it's like everyone has a Blackberry or iPhone on the tube these days (seriously I rarely see any other kind of smartphone anymore, time was you'd see all kinds including the odd Treo)!


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 1, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Looks like Palm are going to announce the release date and the price for the Pre today.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/01/palm-release-date-pricing-announcement-later-today/


Likely to be announcement of "Classic" mode so that you can run your old PalmOS apps, apparently.

Good news for those with investment in PalmOS apps if it's true.


----------



## editor (Apr 1, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Likely to be announcement of "Classic" mode so that you can run your old PalmOS apps, apparently.
> 
> Good news for those with investment in PalmOS apps if it's true.


If that's true, it's fantastic news. Some of the old Palm OS apps are still as good as some of the best available on other platforms.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 1, 2009)

It'll also help them out in case they launch soon after they make the SDK public, as it'll give them a base of apps that people can run on it without developers having to get to grips with the SDK capabilities.

They might also be wise, from a business/encouraging developers point of view, to follow in Sony's footsteps in dropping the "classic" mode in future products/updates to push people towards the new apps. The last thing they'll want is a load of people buying Pre's to run their old PalmOS apps on with no new app spend. That may be why classic mode has been kept quiet until now.

Presuming it exists at all, of course.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 2, 2009)

DRM free music via the Amazon music store. Making calls is apparently cool too...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 2, 2009)

Now *THIS* is very cool!



> One of the developer partners for the Pre launch is Fandango, the popular online movie ticket site.  The application on the Pre is full featured, allowing you to preview trailers, check shows and movie times, and all your usual stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 2, 2009)

Palm have announced early access to the Mojo SDK for more developers. Still not open access but better than the "select developers" who previously had access.

There's also more info about "Classic" - it's a 3rd party application which can be purchased, and it's not built using the standard Mojo SDK but with unpublished APIs which other developers won't have access to.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/01/palm-announces-webos-sdk-availability-palm-os-emulation-for-pre/

Still no price or date, but this is the first real news since the original Pre announcement, unless you count the Sprint price plans as news...


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 2, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> But there’s something up it’s sleeve. This shows you the power of webOS and the API’s built into the Pre. When you purchase movie tickets on Fandango for yourself, it AUTOMAGICALLY adds a calendar appointment over in your calendar apps. Sweet huh?


Nice as a demo of what's possible, but if it's anything like the Fandango iPhone app, it's US only.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 2, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Nice as a demo of what's possible, but if it's anything like the Fandango iPhone app, it's US only.



I bloody hope it's Europe wide...


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 2, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I bloody hope it's Europe wide...


Fandango is US/Canada only as far as I can see, they don't understand any city outside of North America on their website fandango.com


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 2, 2009)

That's crap...

Anyhoo...more video newness here.


----------



## editor (Apr 2, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That's crap...
> 
> Anyhoo...more video newness here.


I'm finding Palm's site really slow, but this one loads quick enough: http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/01/pandora-amazon-other-third-party-apps-demoed-on-palm-pre/

(I'm guessing it's the same vid). The Spring TV app looks great although I'm not sure if we'll get it here. Everything looks very smooth and slick. The streaming Pandora web app while you're in another app is very nice.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 2, 2009)

Nope that's another one. The Palm one was slow at first but seems to be working now. Very nice example of how the Fandango app and synergy works together in an every day situation...


----------



## Crispy (Apr 2, 2009)

They're accepting applications for early access to the SDK now, but you have to convince them that your app will be good enough, tie into the contacts/calendar API etc.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/02/palm_pre_sdk/


----------



## Sunray (Apr 2, 2009)

Eh?!

How can you do that before you've even written it?


----------



## Crispy (Apr 2, 2009)

Well I imagine "We're going to make a Twitter client that ties into contacts and location awareness, so that you can read the tweets of those near you" would do better than "you press the button and it farts"


----------



## Sunray (Apr 2, 2009)

How you going to know either is good enough though?


----------



## Crispy (Apr 2, 2009)

You're not. It looks like this is an attempt to get a selection of quality apps ready by launch, instead of a flood of dross. Some decent applications may not make it, I suppose. I'm pretty sure that once the Pre and the store are up and running, access will be open.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 2, 2009)

It's also a clever way of explaining why there's only a few apps at launch "Well we limited the number for quality reasons" etc...


----------



## editor (Apr 2, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Well I imagine "We're going to make a Twitter client that ties into contacts and location awareness, so that you can read the tweets of those near you" would do better than "you press the button and it farts"


I like the way you're thinking, squire. I'd rather have 10 great apps covering my needs than a flood of utter dross.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 2, 2009)

But that thinking will have to stop after launch, of course.


----------



## editor (Apr 2, 2009)

Crispy said:


> But that thinking will have to stop after launch, of course.


For sure, but if there's already a good suite of high quality apps covering my needs, then I'm not going to be to arsed with the 300 fart and titty-wobbling apps that follow.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 2, 2009)

Well, I doubt that a few months is long enough to cover all the bases, so I'd expect to wait a while for eg. Office document editing, hardcore PIM apps and the like.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 2, 2009)

Rubbish idea IMO.

High quality applications take time and the longer you leave it till the people that make those applications get their hands on the tools to make those applications the longer it will be before you see them.


----------



## editor (Apr 2, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Rubbish idea IMO.
> 
> High quality applications take time and the longer you leave it till the people that make those applications get their hands on the tools to make those applications the longer it will be before you see them.


I'm not sure how you can make that call without even seeing what apps are coming up or are already in development.

The synergy feature is already _way_ ahead of anything else on the market, and there's clearly more to come, so I'd say it's a bit premature to declare their policy as "rubbish."


----------



## Sunray (Apr 2, 2009)

One feature of a phone does not make a suite of applications.

Its a bad idea because its locking out people who would ultimately make the phone better without any work from Palm.  Give me one reason that's a sensible idea?


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 2, 2009)

A curious thing. In these demo sessions, they won't let reviewers drive the Pre themselves, someone from Palm/Sprint has to have a hand on the phone at all time. They won't even let the phone be moved by anyone else.

Is it a lot less finished than we're led to believe or maybe it's just particularly susceptible to finger marks?  

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12261_7-10210019-51.html


----------



## Sunray (Apr 2, 2009)

Its either bugged to fuck and they know it and don't want to let investors know or the stock price is dead or a clever ploy to garner some extra press as there is no such thing as bad publicity.  Glowing reviews from respected journalists would be a lot better than someone complaining that they can't even touch it.  Just gives me the impression they are hiding something.

12 weeks till the end June. No release date for the US yet, 3 months after announcing it.


----------



## paolo (Apr 2, 2009)

If one wanted to be sensationalist, one could describe potential developers who aren't invited into the programme, as "banned"


----------



## paolo (Apr 2, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> A curious thing. In these demo sessions, they won't let reviewers drive the Pre themselves, someone from Palm/Sprint has to have a hand on the phone at all time. They won't even let the phone be moved by anyone else.
> 
> Is it a lot less finished than we're led to believe or maybe it's just particularly susceptible to finger marks?
> 
> http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12261_7-10210019-51.html



A month or so back, Engadget managed to get one unaccompanied for a few hours based on them taking it on major TV programme (Saturday Night Live/Jay Leno/that kind of thing).

That's the only one I've heard of.


----------



## editor (Apr 3, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Its either bugged to fuck and they know it and don't want to let investors know or the stock price is dead or a clever ploy to garner some extra press as there is no such thing as bad publicity.  Glowing reviews from respected journalists would be a lot better than someone complaining that they can't even touch it.  Just gives me the impression they are hiding something.


I'm pretty sure the investors would have had a pretty good play with it by now - and presumably they found it not wanting.


paolo999 said:


> A month or so back, Engadget managed to get one unaccompanied for a few hours based on them taking it on major TV programme (Saturday Night Live/Jay Leno/that kind of thing).
> 
> That's the only one I've heard of.


There's a comprehensive, three minute, independent video walk through here, by the way. . Its very slick.

More videos here. The full old Palm OS emulator looks superb.  http://www.youtube.com/user/phonescoop


----------



## editor (Apr 3, 2009)

Gizmodo are impressed: 





> *Palm Pre's First Apps Hands On: Seriously Good-Looking Programs*
> 
> We're nearing the still unknown release date for the Palm Pre, and new details are slowly surfacing. Sprint demoed the Pre's WebOS apps at CTIA, including PalmOS Emulator, Google Maps and Pandora. These look fantastic.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Apr 3, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> If one wanted to be sensationalist, one could describe potential developers who aren't invited into the programme, as "banned"


Or you could just read their entirely reasonable explanation: 





> Admission to the program is by application – we’ll admit a small group of developers to start and gradually increase the size of the program as the tools mature.
> 
> We’d like to let everyone in, but we want to make sure that we can provide a solid development experience and attentive developer support before we scale up.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 3, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> A curious thing. In these demo sessions, they won't let reviewers drive the Pre themselves, someone from Palm/Sprint has to have a hand on the phone at all time. They won't even let the phone be moved by anyone else.
> 
> Is it a lot less finished than we're led to believe or maybe it's just particularly susceptible to finger marks?
> 
> http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12261_7-10210019-51.html



Yeah I been puzzling over that one too, a few people have mentioned that too.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 3, 2009)

editor said:


> Or you could just read their entirely reasonable explanation:



I call that an unreasonable bullshit excuse.  Even Apple didn't do that, and how restrictive are they?

Its an SDK, release it and let people develop for the phone.  What are they afraid of?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 3, 2009)

I read somewhere (can't bloody remember where now) that the reason Palm wont let anyone hold it is 'fairness'. They basically said they didn't want anyone to feel others were getting better treatment by how much they got to hold it or demo it without supervision...


----------



## editor (Apr 3, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I call that an unreasonable bullshit excuse.  Even Apple didn't do that, and how restrictive are they?
> 
> Its an SDK, release it and let people develop for the phone.  What are they afraid of?


It's really rather simple. The company don't have the huge R&D resources and  vast pots of $$$$ cash that moneybags Apple have - and they're writing a brand new OS from the ground up. That's an awful lot of work.

Because it's so new, they don't want to release an unfinished SDK and so are relying on tried and tested developers to help mature the product before releasing it to everyone. 

That sure seems entirely reasonable to me - or would you rather they release a half-arsed, unfinished version and then piss off smaller developers when they have to change and rewrite things later? That's what happened with Android, IIRC and it looks like they've learnt from their mistakes.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 3, 2009)

editor said:


> It's really rather simple. The company don't have the huge R&D resources and  vast pots of $$$$ cash that moneybags Apple have - and they're writing a brand new OS from the ground up. That's an awful lot of work.
> 
> Because it's so new, they don't want to release an unfinished SDK and so are relying on tried and tested developers to help mature the product before releasing it to everyone.
> 
> That sure seems entirely reasonable to me - or would you rather they release a half-arsed, unfinished version and then piss off smaller developers when they have to change and rewrite things later? That's what happened with Android, IIRC and it looks like they've learnt from their mistakes.



As long as the documentation is reasonable and things that are marked as 'might change', of course I expect that.  The SDK for Windows 7 has been out there for ages already, MS release the SDK well before the final product because they support their developers very well indeed and realise that without them onboard they would die.

Most software developers are use to such things and get on with it.  Its highly unlikely to change radically in what, 3 months or even this year for that matter.  Choosing a select few is just favouritism and nothing else.


----------



## editor (Apr 3, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Most software developers are use to such things and get on with it.  Its highly unlikely to change radically in what, 3 months or even this year for that matter.  Choosing a select few is just favouritism and nothing else.


It's _exactly_ the kind of thing Apple did - and they have vast R&D resources and riches that Palm could only dream of.


> During the beta iPhone SDK program, a limited number of developers will be accepted into Apple’s iPhone Developer Program and offered the ability to get code onto iPhones for testing.
> http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17755


If I was releasing a new, untested OS into the world, I'd do exactly the same: get tried and trusted allies to help tweak and polish the product and unearth flaws, and only release it to everyone when it's stable.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 3, 2009)

editor said:


> It's _exactly_ the kind of thing Apple did - and they have vast R&D resources and riches that Palm could only dream of.
> If I was releasing a new, untested OS into the world, I'd do exactly the same: get tried and trusted allies to help tweak and polish the product and unearth flaws, and only release it to everyone when it's stable.



No, what Apple did was get a limited number of people into their developer program, which allowed them to the full App store and upload onto the Phone with the Beta of 2.0 of the software.

The SDK was freely available for download the moment they released it and it included a iphone emulator.

Palm clearly have a SDK, just release it to the world.  We know its not totally finished.  It can even ship without an emulator if the phone isn't ready, but having documentation, examples and such is a boon for any developer


----------



## Crispy (Apr 3, 2009)

What are you on about? It's exactly the same process 

Pre-release limited access to iron out bugs, get developer feedback, get some reasonable apps finished. Launch, and open to all. Exactly the same as what apple did.


----------



## jæd (Apr 3, 2009)

Sunray said:


> No, what Apple did was get a limited number of people into their developer program, which allowed them to the full App store and upload onto the Phone with the Beta of 2.0 of the software.



This is the stage Palm are at.



Sunray said:


> Palm clearly have a SDK, just release it to the world.  We know its not totally finished.  It can even ship without an emulator if the phone isn't ready, but having documentation, examples and such is a boon for any developer



If have neither sample phones ready or an emulator, how are developers going to test their application...?


----------



## Sunray (Apr 3, 2009)

Crispy said:


> What are you on about? It's exactly the same process
> 
> Pre-release limited access to iron out bugs, get developer feedback, get some reasonable apps finished. Launch, and open to all. Exactly the same as what apple did.



No, the SDK was announced and made available immediately for download by anyone.  They had a limited developer participation scheme where they got dev iPhone 3G's with the v2.0 software on it.  Nobody knew these existed though speculation was rife.

How do you think the App store was launched with 800 applications in it?


----------



## jæd (Apr 3, 2009)

Sunray said:


> No, the SDK was announced and made available immediately for download by anyone.  They had a limited developer participation scheme where they got dev iPhone 3G's with the v2.0 software on it.  Nobody knew these existed though speculation was rife.
> 
> How do you think the App store was launched with 800 applications in it?



There was some limited access to the SDK before the beta was on general release:



> "Don't just take my word on how good this platform is -- we called up a handful of companies and asked them to send out a couple of engineers to see what they could accomplish in two weeks with an SDK that they've never even seen before."


http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/06/live-from-apples-iphone-press-conference/

There's a timeline of SDK releases at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_OS


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 3, 2009)

> Pandora's integration with WebOS will make it the best available mobile version of this music service.



Which, if the Pandora website is anything to go by, won't be available anywhere other than the USA.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 3, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Which, if the Pandora website is anything to go by, won't be available anywhere other than the USA.



They've really got to sort this kind of thing.


----------



## editor (Apr 4, 2009)

Some more press:





> *New Palm Pre apps underscore Apple's iPhone limitations*
> 
> While third-party apps are being trumpeted as the iPhone's strength, key Palm Pre demos this week were designed to highlight their restrictions by taking advantage of those precise things that Apple won't allow.
> http://www.appleinsider.com/article...pps_underscore_apples_iphone_limitations.html


Outlook desktop sync will be possible with the Pre:
http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palma...crosoft-outlook-to-palm-pre-using-google.html
Pre first impression: http://www.computerworld.com/action...t&articleId=9130976&taxonomyId=0&pageNumber=1


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 4, 2009)

editor said:


> Some more press:
> Outlook desktop sync will be possible with the Pre:
> http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palma...crosoft-outlook-to-palm-pre-using-google.html



If you're prepared to pay 30 dollars...


----------



## Crispy (Apr 4, 2009)

That's just for standalone desktop Outlook. Exchange support appears to be built in already


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 5, 2009)

Sat Nav demo on the Pre

http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/03/pre-sprint-navigation-app-demoed-on-video/

It's Sprint's own app though so isn't likely to be available outside the US.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 6, 2009)

The biggest limitation I can see for the Pre is that they are limiting apps to Javascript which is fine for certain things, but its interpreted and therefore a bigger battery life drain and order of magnitudes slower than native code access. Unless they release a proper SDK with low level access to the phones hardware then there will be serious limitations to what apps are able to be coded.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2009)

Sunray said:


> The biggest limitation I can see for the Pre is that they are limiting apps to Javascript which is fine for certain things, but its interpreted and therefore a bigger battery life drain and order of magnitudes slower than native code access. Unless they release a proper SDK with low level access to the phones hardware then there will be serious limitations to what apps are able to be coded.


That's a whole load of fairly wild speculation there. You have no idea at all how good or bad the battery life is.


----------



## Structaural (Apr 6, 2009)

Sunray said:


> The biggest limitation I can see for the Pre is that they are limiting apps to Javascript which is fine for certain things, but its interpreted and therefore a bigger battery life drain and order of magnitudes slower than native code access. Unless they release a proper SDK with low level access to the phones hardware then there will be serious limitations to what apps are able to be coded.



Going to limit any decent gaming apps and anything that wants 3D. I'm sure they'll get a C based SDK in the end, or they'll not be able to compete with Android or Apple.


----------



## jæd (Apr 6, 2009)

Structaural said:


> Going to limit any decent gaming apps and anything that wants 3D. I'm sure they'll get a C based SDK in the end, or they'll not be able to compete with Android or Apple.



Also, until they get a C based SDK it will be hard to port games to the Pre (eg Castle Wolfstein).


----------



## Sunray (Apr 6, 2009)

editor said:


> That's a whole load of fairly wild speculation there. You have no idea at all how good or bad the battery life is.



If you read my post again, I'm not saying its going to be good or bad, just that running Javascript is more expensive in terms of juice for less end product than a native application.  

Javascript is a rubbish language to develop in as well.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 6, 2009)

Perhaps not the best way to woo journos...



> Palm's look but don't touch demo policy has sparked a wide range of frustration and contempt from some journalists and bloggers trying to cover the device at the CTIA show this week. Despite having arguably the most interesting and anticipated product, Palm had a very low key presence at the industry show. The company did not have a booth on the show floor, declined to provide meetings with media outlets, and made no announcements at the show.
> 
> Palm's sole space at CTIA included a private room in the Las Vegas Convention Center. It was largely sponsored by Sprint. This private "VIP lounge" was only open to industry analysts and pre-approved members of the press invited beforehand by Sprint. Even in this controlled environment, Palm's reps were reluctant to allow anyone to handle the Pre at all and stuck to a script for most of the demo presentations.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 6, 2009)

*Howard Stern drops Pre for BlackBerry Bold*

Pissing off journos, hoping that celebs will boost the Pre? Not clear whether this will be a winning strategy is it...



> When Palm sent US radio shock-jock Howard Stern a pre-production Pre to try out, they were obviously hoping for some mainstream publicity.  That seems to have backfired somewhat, *after Stern compared the Palm Pre to the BlackBerry Bold, and went on to state his preference for the RIM smartphone.*
> 
> Stern’s opinion of the Pre was that it was “a fine phone” but cited its inability to connect to Lotus Notes as a “dealbreaker”.  The Pre has since fallen from conversation on Stern’s show, to be replaced by gleeful, swooning discussion of the BlackBerry Bold’s charms.
> 
> Of course, there are lots of people out there who don’t use Lotus Notes and never plan to, and as such Stern’s judgment isn’t particularly relevant.  There are also those who will consciously be swayed toward the Pre out of dislike of the DJ.  Still, Palm might just be kicking themselves for not knocking up some basic Lotus Notes sync for Stern to use.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2009)

As if Stern's opinion is going to make a tot of difference! And Lotus Notes? Never used it.

The 'don't touch' policy certainly is annoying, but if look around the web, journalists are still far from being 'pissed off' with Palm. In fact, most still remain _very_ excited by the Pre.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 6, 2009)

editor said:


> As if Stern's opinion is going to make a tot of difference! And Lotus Notes? Never used it.
> 
> The 'don't touch' policy certainly is annoying, but if look around the web, journalists are still far from being 'pissed off' with Palm. In fact, most still remain _very_ excited by the Pre.



Yeah I guess you're Stern and his show (one of the most successful in the US) with its huge audience is going to have zero impact....why Palm were desperate to get it into the hands of this nobody is just baffling.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yeah I guess you're Stern and his show (one of the most successful in the US) with its huge audience is going to have zero impact.....


Graham Norton is hugely popular here but I don't imagine many mainstream consumers  give a flying fuck about what phone he endorses, or whether it's compatible with Lotus Notes or not (which is what he rejected the Pre for).


----------



## kropotkin (Apr 6, 2009)

I certainly hope that the Palm PR department don't make the mistake of giving Graham Norton a Pre to promote.
They'd only end up kicking themselves.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 6, 2009)

editor said:


> Graham Norton is hugely popular here but I don't imagine many mainstream consumers  give a flying fuck about what phone he endorses, or whether it's compatible with Lotus Notes or not (which is what he rejected the Pre for).



Heh no idea what kind of tech expert would compare Howard Stern to Norton. But hey you're the gadget guru! *bows*


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Heh no idea what kind of tech expert would compare Howard Stern to Norton. But hey you're the gadget guru! *bows*


Hey, if you're the kind of guy who is influenced by what _celebs_ and shockjocks say about tech kit, that's your call!

Personally, I couldn't give a monkeys.


----------



## Structaural (Apr 7, 2009)

Quite a good look at what Apple could learn from the Pre:

new_palm_pre_apps_underscore_apples_iphone_limitations


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 7, 2009)

editor said:


> Hey, if you're the kind of guy who is influenced by what _celebs_ and shockjocks say about tech kit, that's your call!
> 
> Personally, I couldn't give a monkeys.



*sigh* I'm not. But...oh man you're so obtuse it's amazing! 

Fuck it, can't be bothered trying to explain elementary marketing strategy...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 7, 2009)

Structaural said:


> Quite a good look at what Apple could learn from the Pre:
> 
> new_palm_pre_apps_underscore_apples_iphone_limitations



Yep and this is the stuff Palm need to push big time.


----------



## editor (Apr 7, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Fuck it, can't be bothered trying to explain elementary marketing strategy...


I'm always willing to learn from experts, so what's your professional expertise in this area then?


----------



## Crispy (Apr 7, 2009)

You don't need professional expertise to understand that endorsements by well-known people can help the success of a product.


----------



## editor (Apr 7, 2009)

Crispy said:


> You don't need professional expertise to understand that endorsements by well-known people can help the success of a product.


You don't need professional expertise to understand that endorsements by well-known people don't always help the success of a product either. In fact, some celeb endorsements might even _put off_ some people from buying the product.

It depends on who they are, their area of expertise, their credibility, what they're famous for and a whole load of other factors.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 7, 2009)

Crispy said:


> You don't need professional expertise to understand that endorsements by well-known people can help the success of a product.



Indeed oft time ordinary folk can make more sense of the obvious than so called experts.

Anyway Palm's pr strategy needs work is the point here. They have a potentially fantastic device, the first one capable of taking on the iPhone but they also have a lot of work to even launch it properly...


----------



## Sunray (Apr 8, 2009)

They really really need to announce a date people can buy it.  The industry is now fully expecting a new iPhone June or July to go with the new version of the software.

Really don't want to be caught up with the buzz of that if Apple pull something special out of the hat.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 8, 2009)

Sunray said:


> They really really need to announce a date people can buy it.  The industry is now fully expecting a new iPhone June or July to go with the new version of the software.
> 
> Really don't want to be caught up with the buzz of that if Apple pull something special out of the hat.



Indeed. The amount of frustrated to annoyed bloggers and commenters I've read along the lines of "Announce already!" is getting a little silly. Palm needs to take control of this.


----------



## editor (Apr 8, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Indeed. The amount of frustrated to annoyed bloggers and commenters I've read along the lines of "Announce already!" is getting a little silly. Palm needs to take control of this.


Well, I'm getting fucking bored waiting for the thing to come out, but the media are still happy to big up the Pre and lavish praise on the handset:


> Palm Pre Smartphone, WebOS Are Looking Like iPhone Killers
> 
> Palm just can’t seem to stop showing off its hot new smartphone, the Pre, and the company’s stellar application platform, the WebOS. While there is no word yet when the Pre will hit store shelves, journalists, bloggers, gadget heads and Palm fans are chomping at the bit to get their hands on this handheld. eWEEK’s Stephen Wellman logged some time with the Pre at the 2009 CTIA show in Las Vegas, and has an in-depth look at Palm’s device, a gadget many claim will be this year’s iPhone killer. The handset might also look to give BlackBerry maker RIM a run for its money as well.


http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and...WebOS-Are-Looking-Like-iPhone-Killers-267367/


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Apr 8, 2009)

Announce already

Blimey ...are Palm about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?


----------



## Sunray (Apr 9, 2009)

I do hope not, I want decent competition to kick Apple into innovating new cool stuff.


----------



## sumimasen (Apr 9, 2009)

There can only be one reason for Palm's incredible, amazing reluctance to announce a release date.....................................  the Pre is buggy as hell


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 9, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> There can only be one reason for Palm's incredible, amazing reluctance to announce a release date.....................................  the Pre is buggy as hell



I've been wondering if it's that or some kind pr cat and mouse game with Apple...


----------



## editor (Apr 10, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> There can only be one reason for Palm's incredible, amazing reluctance to announce a release date.....................................  the Pre is buggy as hell


Not a single hands-on review has found anything 'buggy' about the Pre.

Maybe the wait is because they've got even more surprises up their sleeve? After all, they're still on schedule.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 10, 2009)

I didn't think there'd been any hands-on with the pre yet?


----------



## jæd (Apr 10, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I didn't think there'd been any hands-on with the pre yet?



As far as I can tell there have been "hands on" just with a Palm exec standing menacingly in the background...


----------



## editor (Apr 10, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I didn't think there'd been any hands-on with the pre yet?


Here's one from back in early January: http://gizmodo.com/5126702/palm-pre-hands+on-first-impressions


----------



## Crispy (Apr 10, 2009)

I was mistaken then


----------



## sumimasen (Apr 10, 2009)

editor said:


> Not a single hands-on review has found anything 'buggy' about the Pre.
> 
> Maybe the wait is because they've got even more surprises up their sleeve? After all, they're still on schedule.



I hope you're right, though if their schedule deadline is end of June, for logistical purposes they would need to announce the release date with a couple of months notice surely.

When Apple announced the iPhone in Jan 07, release date of June 07 was immediately stated.  Even the prices of the two models were in place.


----------



## editor (Apr 10, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> I hope you're right, though if their schedule deadline is end of June, for logistical purposes they would need to announce the release date with a couple of months notice surely.
> 
> When Apple announced the iPhone in Jan 07, release date of June 07 was immediately stated.  Even the prices of the two models were in place.


I'm guessing here, but maybe Palm had to announce early because the company needed to reassure investors fast and whip up interest among the networks/tech sites. Saying that, the platform seemed remarkably stable back then.

They've stuck steadfastly to their '1st half of 2009' deadline and recently confirmed that they're still on schedule. Sprint US has already shown the phone in their latest advertising.


----------



## editor (Apr 10, 2009)

Sprint employees are apparently now being trained on the Palm Pre:

http://www.prethinking.com/home/200...-training-on-the-palm-pre-pres-launch-is.html


----------



## sumimasen (Apr 10, 2009)

Cool!  That's re-whetting the appetite!  Same link speculating 5 weeks from now.


----------



## editor (Apr 10, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Cool!  That's re-whetting the appetite!  Same link speculating 5 weeks from now.


Wish they'd fucking hurry up. My Palm Centro feels like something from the stone age in comparison to the G1, iPhone, HTC Touch HD etc.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 10, 2009)

editor said:


> Wish they'd fucking hurry up. My Palm Centro feels like something from the stone age in comparison to the G1, iPhone, HTC Touch HD etc.



Tell me about it...


----------



## sumimasen (Apr 10, 2009)

Just wondering when it reaches these shores...

Iphone on o2
Storm on vodafone
G1 on T-Mobile

That leaves Orange for exclusivity..


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 10, 2009)

It's going to be O2.


----------



## sumimasen (Apr 10, 2009)

Oh.  18 month contract it is then.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 10, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It's going to be O2.



It'll be interesting to see how O2 markets it, seeing as they're going to have the new iPhone to wow people with as well.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 10, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Oh.  18 month contract it is then.



Yep.



beesonthewhatnow said:


> It'll be interesting to see how O2 markets it, seeing as they're going to have the new iPhone to wow people with as well.



Indeed. It will be interesting to see how that pans out...


----------



## sumimasen (Apr 10, 2009)

"Say it o2, who's your daddy?"
"You are, Master iPhone. Woof, you are"
"That's right, now lick my shoes, you're a dirty little whore aren't you. Say it."
"I'm a dirty little whore"
"And I'm your bag bad da-"
"Excuse me I need to take this other call.... Mmm, Master Palm helllllo..... I am Master Palm. I am your big horny bitch.."


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 10, 2009)

I wonder if bookies are taking bets on the release date. Latest rumour is May 17th...http://mypre.com/two-potential-launch-dates-as-soon-as-may-17th-2009101307


----------



## editor (Apr 12, 2009)

I definitely can't be arsed to sit through this right now, but this may be of interest to some:


> During CTIA I visited the Sprint VIP lounge and I recorded this exclusive 45-minute video walkthrough of the Palm Pre! I also snapped a bunch of pictures…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 12, 2009)

I got be honest I think I've had my fill of walk throughs, video clips of synergy or how cool it is to close cards by flicking them off screen. Palm, announce already!


----------



## paolo (Apr 12, 2009)

One of my bugbears, not about Palm specifically, is fake pictures.

Doing those pretend superimposed shots that make a phone, mp3player, whatever, have magical resolution they simply don't have.

In Palm's case, the repeated annoyance is the battery meter et al BEING ON THE PLASTIC.

Can someone, for the love of f^&^king chris, post an actual picture that's real, not some photoshop shit.

(it really is probably just my little niggle. I doubt the Pre will be anything less for these duff photos. It just annoys me. Any phone. Any gadget. I hate it)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 12, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> *
> In Palm's case, the repeated annoyance is the battery meter et al BEING ON THE PLASTIC.*
> 
> Can someone, for the love of f^&^king chris, post an actual picture that's real, not some photoshop shit.



If I understand you right I should point out that the screen is a bit bigger at the top and bottom than what you see. It includes a strip of black at the top and bottom for info and notifications.


----------



## editor (Apr 12, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> One of my bugbears, not about Palm specifically, is fake pictures.
> 
> Doing those pretend superimposed shots that make a phone, mp3player, whatever, have magical resolution they simply don't have.
> 
> ...


Eh? There's literally _hundreds_ of photos of the 'real' Palm Pre out there, and there's no shortage of videos either. I've no idea what your 'ON THE PLASTIC' comment is about either but if you're thinking that the battery meter is not on the screen, you're wrong. 

However, the plastic gesture area underneath the screen is a brilliant idea.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/palm-pre-in-depth-impressions-video-and-huge-hands-on-gallery/5
http://gizmodo.com/5126702/palm-pre-preview-simply-amazing
http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/palm-pre-in-depth-impressions-video-and-huge-hands-on-gallery/


----------



## jæd (Apr 12, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> One of my bugbears, not about Palm specifically, is fake pictures.
> 
> Doing those pretend superimposed shots that make a phone, mp3player, whatever, have magical resolution they simply don't have.
> 
> ...



Probably a render. Fun when you see ads with them in, especially cars with an impossibly smooth finish...  Why always best to play with the real thing.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 12, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I got be honest I think I've had my fill of walk throughs, video clips of synergy or how cool it is to close cards by flicking them off screen. Palm, announce already!



They need to get it onto shelves so people can go an buy it now.  Apple are gearing up for the 3rd gen iPhone so the sooner the better.

I'm still curious about the price and if its going to be contract only.  That's an annoying Apple idea and now everyone seems to be clamouring for a piece of the action.  

The EU needs to kick the carriers in the balls and tell them that single carrier for a phone is anti-competitive.


----------



## editor (Apr 12, 2009)

FoxNews are _very_ impressed: 


> Earlier this month, I finally got a chance to check out the most buzzed-about gadget of the year — the upcoming Palm Pre smartphone.
> 
> I'm happy to report that all the hype from the gadget shows is true. Palm's got a winner on its hands and Apple's got a challenger for first place among smartphones.
> 
> ...




http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,514708,00.html


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 12, 2009)

Lol Fox 'news'!


----------



## editor (Apr 12, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Lol Fox 'news'!


I think I'm failing to find that LOL moment here.


----------



## jæd (Apr 13, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Lol Fox 'news'!



Yaay for FOX news... Always in impartial and the first to breaking news, whichever side of the political spectrum it is...


----------



## jayeola (Apr 13, 2009)

I got an email a couple of days ago about the Pre I'm looking forward to seeing it. Pre this, pre that, rah rah. I'm supposed to be tempted to sign up to "Sprint", even though I've marked myself as a Brit living in the UK ffs. 

Palm, tell me when it will be available in Europe!

Note: If I get one Obama will get one too and ppl will throw thier iphones and other bricks in the.. oh no, uh, they wil recyle them.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 13, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I wonder if bookies are taking bets on the release date. Latest rumour is May 17th...http://mypre.com/two-potential-launch-dates-as-soon-as-may-17th-2009101307



Engadget have may down as Sprint have cancelled all holiday in May.

Sensible time, get out there early enough to be away from the launch of the iPhone launch so reviews etc are plastered all over the web and real media.  

Also to get to be compared to the new iPhone, which gives it much wider coverage. All the people with iPhones (many millions) are going to read about the new iPhone and therefore about the Pre as well.


----------



## editor (Apr 13, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Also to get to be compared to the new iPhone, which gives it much wider coverage. All the people with iPhones (many millions) are going to read about the new iPhone and therefore about the Pre as well.


Although there's no denying that the new iPhone is going to generate the usual press frenzy, they are facing diminishing returns in terms of features to wow people with.

After all, the phone's fabulous UI, great form factor and massive app store are the big attractions and apart from bolting on less compelling stuff that is already available on other phones (video, compass, better camera) I fancy Apple may find it harder to get folks as excited third time around.

The Pre is a brand new phone offering a radical new OS with some interesting and unique features which I think will guarantee coverage galore, regardless of what the iPhone comes up with.

Bear in mind that the UK coverage is always going to be a lot less than the US where Palm is still a fairly big player.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 13, 2009)

The press will still give the iPhone huge column inches in comparison to the Pre on its own.  If it waited till after the iPhone which Palm knows it will get a direct comparison with, it will have lost a lot of free publicity.

Clearly they can only do that if it can hold a candle with the iPhone, so Palm are gambling on the sentiment you profess.  Everyone thinks that its been a year since Apple release the phone but actually its 2 years, the 3G is just an engineering tweak. They might release something interesting with the new version.  Dual core ARM Cortex A9 with an OLED display and Tegra graphics.  That would make it the most powerful smart phone ever created.  Apple sometimes do pull things like that out of the hat, though I prepare to be disappointed.


----------



## editor (Apr 13, 2009)

Sunray said:


> They might release something interesting with the new version.  Dual core ARM Cortex A9 with an OLED display and Tegra graphics.  That would make it the most powerful smart phone ever created.  Apple sometimes do pull things like that out of the hat, though I prepare to be disappointed.


Thing is, high end tweaks like that aren't going to wow ordinary consumers like the original iPhone did. Tech spods like us will love it of course, but I'd say regular punters will be far more interested in getting more useful functions like MMS, video, better camera with flash and perhaps smart compass/GPS apps.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 13, 2009)

editor said:


> I'd say regular punters will be far more interested in getting more useful functions like MMS, video, better camera with flash and perhaps smart compass/GPS apps.



I dunno, I think regular punters are more interested in what's cool and trendy, and that's one area where Apple beat everyone hands down, in spite of a possible lack of features...

The Pre is almost certainly going to be the best smartphone available from a technical/feature point of view, but it still won't have the desirability factor that Apple have managed to build up so carefully for their products over the years.


----------



## sumimasen (Apr 13, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The Pre is almost certainly going to be the best smartphone available from a technical/feature point of view, but it still won't have the desirability factor that Apple have managed to build up so carefully for their products over the years.



I'm finding the Pre incredibly desirable.  It looks good, it looks fast, it looks smooth.  

And most importantly, hardly anyone else will have one because the vast majority have locked themselves into an iPhone contract.  Now THAT's desirability!


----------



## editor (Apr 13, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I dunno, I think regular punters are more interested in what's cool and trendy, and that's one area where Apple beat everyone hands down, in spite of a possible lack of features...


Sure, but I'm talking about them managing to stir up a massive press frenzy for the third version and I'm thinking that it's going to be a lot harder just because it's no longer so 'new.'


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 13, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I dunno, I think regular punters are more interested in what's cool and trendy, and that's one area where Apple beat everyone hands down, in spite of a possible lack of features...
> 
> The Pre is almost certainly going to be the best smartphone available from a technical/feature point of view, but it still won't have the desirability factor that Apple have managed to build up so carefully for their products over the years.



Basically this.


----------



## editor (Apr 13, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Basically this.


But does it matter? Palm aren't trying to create an iPhone beater, nor have they got the resources to do so, no matter how good the Pre is. 

They're trying to create a great Palm phone that sells well, and I'd say they're on course to do just that.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 13, 2009)

If it doesn't generate a buzz (outside us tech luvvies) it won't sell well enough to ensure Palm survives, if Palm goes down it will be to the detriment to the industry and smartphone users.


----------



## mack (Apr 13, 2009)

Looks like the Pre is due pretty soon now if the number of stories on Engadget today is anything to go by.

Pictures of the pre "in the wild", Sprint schedules and a price for the touchstone charger thingy $69.99 - love the comments from some about the high price!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 13, 2009)

Yeah there's this since of building going on...70 dollars so we could be looking at roughly 45 quid for it?


----------



## mack (Apr 13, 2009)

More than that I reckon - about £60 over here.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 14, 2009)

Wireless charging, interesting technology for technology sake, but ultimately pointless. Just like wireless headphones and wireless mice, 50 quid so you can lose a cable?  Still need to plug the charging device in.  

Thinking about it further, if you really de-construct it, I spend 20 quid on docking station thing for my iPhone, whats the difference?  You can put the Pre in a non-specific part of the fairly small charging device where I am forced to push it onto the specified slot.  All that technology has solved what problem?


----------



## editor (Apr 14, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Thinking about it further, if you really de-construct it, I spend 20 quid on docking station thing for my iPhone, whats the difference?  You can put the Pre in a non-specific part of the fairly small charging device where I am forced to push it onto the specified slot.  All that technology has solved what problem?


It appears that the Touchstone technology will be used for many other things, as yet undisclosed.

I'm not going to pay $70 for the privilege, but there are clear benefits. It's easier to slap your phone on a surface than fiddle about with cables every time, and there's some nice touches too. If the phone rings it automatically answers the call if you pick it up off the charger and if you put it down mid call it switches to answerphone.

Nothing revolutionary, but definitely handy and as Apple has proved time and time again, there's no shortage of people willing to pay premium rates for stylish things of questionable value compared to similar products.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm up with the idea of cable free charging.  Someone ages ago came up with an intelligent mat for your table that can work out what you put onto it and charge it.  It was contact charging, power was negotiated by the device that was put onto the mat, so you wouldn't get a shock.

It would be cool for there to be wireless power everywhere and power could be on our mobile bill.

Until such times, I think its an interesting technology demonstration but no more.  I suppose if its cheap to make, good way of relieving the foolish with their money.  

e.g. Vertu phones.  14800 quid for a phone that has jewelled bearing buttons, solid titanium case but no data cable and will go out of date in a few years time.


----------



## paolo (Apr 14, 2009)

How does the phone size differ, when you've swapped the regular back for the cable free charging back?


----------



## editor (Apr 14, 2009)

paolo999;8997291]How does the phone size differ said:


> Until such times, I think its an interesting technology demonstration but no more. I suppose if its cheap to make, good way of relieving the foolish with their money.


Like I said, Palm has hinted that the Touchstone will be used for more than just a charger.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 14, 2009)

Sprint internal documents show everything to be ready by May 16th, the Pre has been spotted in the wild and a general buzz it looks like the release date is close. Still think we won't see it till June at earliest but it'll be good to see this being sold. Palm needs to pre empt the new iPhone big time.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 14, 2009)

I would be very surprised if this country sees it much before November.  Unless of course Palm have really gone for it on the manufacturing stakes.  I suppose that the downturn is good in that there is a shit load of spare capacity in China able to crank out millions of handsets in the blink of an eye.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 14, 2009)

editor said:


> It's exactly the same size as far as I can see.Like I said, Palm has hinted that the Touchstone will be used for more than just a charger.



Its round thing you put your phone on?  What else could it do that could possibly be of interest?

One foot, foot rest?


----------



## editor (Apr 14, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Its round thing you put your phone on?  What else could it do that could possibly be of interest?
> 
> One foot, foot rest?


You really can't think of anything?

I'll take a guess and suggest auto desktop sync, auto media sync, cloud back ups, music playback with built in speakers, network back up... you knew, all the sort of things that currently usually involve fiddling about with plugging in cables or delicately slotting  a handset into a cradle.


----------



## jæd (Apr 14, 2009)

editor said:


> You really can't think of anything?
> 
> I'll take a guess and suggest auto desktop sync, auto media sync, cloud back ups, music playback with built in speakers, network back up... you knew, all the sort of things that currently usually involve fiddling about with plugging in cables or delicately slotting  a handset into a cradle.



You could do all that bluetooth, or wifi... If you used the Touchstone you'd have to get new speakers, etc when you could just bluetooth a2dp for them...


----------



## Sunray (Apr 14, 2009)

Exactly.  Don't even have to take it out of your pocket for all that to work just fine, no touchstone involved.  

So wireless comms etc is out because its old hat.  My toothbrush does wireless charging, so its not like Palm created anything new, just changed its application and called it something cool.

I am at a loss to see how much further they can take the technology.


----------



## editor (Apr 14, 2009)

jæd said:


> You could do all that bluetooth, or wifi... If you used the Touchstone you'd have to get new speakers, etc when you could just bluetooth a2dp for them...


I've never heard of a phone charging through wi-fi or Bluetooth. And, of course, Bluetooth/Wi-Fi drains the battery a treat.  Future Touchstone bases could come with speakers built in.

I'm not claiming that it's a revolutionary new thing, but it sure seems a lot easier/handier than your fiddly alternatives.





Sunray said:


> My toothbrush does wireless charging, so its not like Palm created anything new, just changed its application and called it something cool.


Isn't that _*exactly*_ what Apple did with the iPhone?

There's never been a cordless phone charger till now so no matter how you spin it, it's a nice little addition for those who want it.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 14, 2009)

editor said:


> I've never heard of a phone charging through wi-fi or Bluetooth. And, of course, Bluetooth/Wi-Fi drains the battery a treat.  Future Touchstone bases could come with speakers built in.
> 
> I'm not claiming that it's a revolutionary new thing, but it sure seems a lot easier/handier than your *fiddly alternatives*.Isn't that _exactly_ what Apple did with the iPhone?
> 
> There's never been a cordless phone charger till now so no matter how you spin it, it's a nice little addition for those who want it.



Fiddly? I push my phone into the docking station which sits beside my keyboard, its pretty soft push in and pull out.   That was my point, its like they have solved a problem nobody had before they invented it.

Surely a nicer phone or releasing it earlier would have been better use of the resources?


----------



## editor (Apr 14, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Surely a nicer phone or releasing it earlier would have been better use of the resources?


'Nicer'? What's wrong with the Pre?

You may not like the Touchstone concept but it seems to have excited an awful lot of people elsewhere. I'd certainly rather slap a phone on a charging surface which is smart enough to answer a call when I pick it up and switch to speakerphone when I put it down than mess about with cradles and docks.

But if you're determined to keep telling me it's actually a shit innovation then we'll have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid.

It's not worth $70 mind, but I'd certainly pay up to $50 for the convenience.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 14, 2009)

There really isn't much difference between using a dock and the touchstone, a small click. I don't care if it auto answers the phone if I pick it up either, I can use my fingers to answer the phone quite easily! I'd only get it because it looks cool, Sunray's right it's a solution looking for a problem...


----------



## editor (Apr 14, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> There really isn't much difference between using a dock and the touchstone, a small click. I don't care if it auto answers the phone if I pick it up either, I can use my fingers to answer the phone quite easily! I'd only get it because it looks cool, Sunray's right it's a solution looking for a problem...


Thank you for your opinion. I disagree and a fancy a fair few elsewhere might do too.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 14, 2009)

editor said:


> Thank you for your opinion. I disagree and a fancy a fair few elsewhere might do too.



You don't think it looks cool? I reckon there's a fair few people who'll get this because of that alone. In fact in one of the first videos I saw of it the Palm guy said it's cool and the journo/blogger agreed! 

There aint nothing wrong with Palm trying to up it's cool stakes, it's what will help it not get trounced by Apple come June/July.


----------



## jæd (Apr 15, 2009)

editor said:


> And, of course, Bluetooth/Wi-Fi drains the battery a treat.



But if its attached to the Touchstone thingy you're going to be charging anyway. The main problem with sync'ng via Touchstone is that you're going to have to punch a signal through an inductive charging device. I would think that its going to be very noisy (electrically speaking) and it would hard to get enough bandwidth.  I just think there's more proven ways to sync.

Of course, when the Pre does come out we'll be able to say for sure...



editor said:


> Future Touchstone bases could come with speakers built in.



Once you factor in the Syncing Touchstone thats an expensive pair of speakers for one device...


----------



## editor (Apr 15, 2009)

jæd said:


> But if its attached to the Touchstone thingy you're going to be charging anyway. The main problem with sync'ng via Touchstone is that you're going to have to punch a signal through an inductive charging device. I would think that its going to be very noisy (electrically speaking) and it would hard to get enough bandwidth.  I just think there's more proven ways to sync.


I've seen videos of the Touchstone in action. It seems to work a treat. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot more devices using the technology over the coming months because, simply, it's easier and quicker than fiddling about with wires.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 15, 2009)

I don't fiddle about with wires, I have one of these







No wires required, which is my point.  There is precious little difference between that and the touchstone.  The only difference?  The Pre can be placed on an area, small area its not very big, rather than into the slot, that's it.  Switching to speaker phone automatically is a nice tech demo, but wouldn't be want I wanted anyway as I pretty much use the headphones to make and receive calls, very comfortable.

I'm not saying its not cool, its very cool, but I think they should have made it a large rubber mat rather than something so small.


----------



## editor (Apr 15, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Switching to speaker phone automatically is a nice tech demo, but wouldn't be want I wanted anyway as I pretty much use the headphones to make and receive calls, very comfortable.


I use the speakerphone a lot and like the idea of being able to just slap the phone down to charge it or switch from the earpiece. 

I've had loads of cradles for my phones in the past but the Touchstone seems a much more elegant solution.

Fair enough if it's not for you, but don't be surprised if a lot of phones switch to this system.

(*in response to your edit: the last thing I'd want on my desk is a large rubber mat, thanks very much!)


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 15, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I'm not saying its not cool, its very cool, but I think they should have made it a large rubber mat rather than something so small.


So one of these perhaps - http://www.powermatdigital.com/product-line.html launched at CES the day before the Pre was announced.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 15, 2009)

Yup, didn't know they were actually things you could buy.

I think I'm more excited about the concept of that large coil resonance idea they had powering a 40w light bulb.  

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/30211

So you could just plug it into the wall and all your devices would charge when they were near.   This could lead to wireless power being everywhere and you'd have an extra item on your bill for power.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 17, 2009)

If this is a widespread experience this is great news, it should mean well and quickly made apps:



> TheStandard.com published a report on the initial reactions to the Mojo developers kit that Palm announced a few weeks ago. The feedback is good. Developers are claiming that Palm has made it incredibly easy to access the best features and functions of webOS and the Palm Pre. They’ve addressed the issues associated with multi-tasking, such as memory usage and other reasons that Apple cites as reason for their restriction of the feature.
> 
> These restrictions are basically non-existent on webOS. Palm is using HTML and Javascript, two coding languages that nearly every developer has been using for years, so they already have an army of coding experts at their disposal. API’s are easy to access and incorporate into applications, and the results are impressive. Developers have been able to push out final versions of applications in as little as a few weeks. FlightView was one of those, where the company was able to develop the application in a short period of time thanks to the ease of webOS.


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> So one of these perhaps - http://www.powermatdigital.com/product-line.html launched at CES the day before the Pre was announced.


Apart from the fact it looks nowhere near as elegant as the Pre, have you got any pricing or availability on these?

Oh, I just checked. It's not available until this autumn at the earliest  (if it ever shows up).





Kid_Eternity said:


> If this is a widespread experience this is great news, it should mean well and quickly made apps:


That does look very exciting!

There's a short video of the old OS emulator in action here: 
Look how fast GTS Racing starts up!


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 17, 2009)

editor said:


> Apart from the fact it looks nowhere near as elegant as the Pre, have you got any pricing or availability on these?
> 
> Oh, I just checked. It's not available until this autumn at the earliest  (if it ever shows up).


Yes, Q3 and $100 for the mat, $25-35 for the adapter.

Better to go to http://www.uk.wildcharge.com/ if you want to get a wireless charger today.

They do mats for £50, and adapters for £25-27, including iPhone.

I wouldn't pay for one, but then I wouldn't pay for a Touchstone either.


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Yes, Q3 and $100 for the mat, $25-35 for the adapter.
> 
> Better to go to http://www.uk.wildcharge.com/ if you want to get a wireless charger today.









You're 'aving a laugh! That thing has fallen off the ugly tree and hit most of the branches on the way down. Who'd want that fugly thing hogging their desktop?!






Oh, and it's £50 for the big shiny thing and then you have to keep on paying extra for each hideous clunky skin you have to bolt on to every single item you want to charge.

http://www.firebox.com/product/2128/WildCharge

Mmmm.. looking good!






Compare with:


----------



## Sunray (Apr 17, 2009)

I like the shiny mat, its really shiny.

But until this sort of things comes built to devices, its all very meh.

I would prefer them to include better security, like wireless key fob detection rather than wireless charging.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 17, 2009)

Sorry, I didn't realise we were talking aesthetics, we were taking availability of wireless charging.

Palm are giving an option for charging one device, which may or may not ever be available in the UK; Sunray was asking for a mat-based charger and I've linked to two.

If you want ugly, look at the Palm kit currently available. It's uglier than the Vx was all those years ago


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I like the shiny mat, its really shiny.


How do you like having to fork out for a really ugly plastic skin that has to be stuck onto each and every item you wish to charge?


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Sorry, I didn't realise we were talking aesthetics, we were taking availability of wireless charging.


You don't think aesthetics come into it? LOL!

I know you're determined to be, like, _really down_ on the Pre, but that pug-ugly, botched up, strap-on-a-ghastly-skin 'solution' you posted up is hardly an example of integrated wireless charging. I'm not that bothered about the Touchstone, but _come on!_


Lazy Llama said:


> If you want ugly, look at the Palm kit currently available. It's uglier than the Vx was all those years ago


Now you are talking bollocks. The Pro and and the Centro are both very well designed phones, and the Pre is even better. Still, each to their own....


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 17, 2009)

editor said:


> .That does look very exciting!
> 
> There's a short video of the old OS emulator in action here:
> Look how fast GTS Racing starts up!




Fucking christ that's fast! It's almost instant.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 17, 2009)

editor said:


> How do you like having to fork out for a really ugly plastic skin that has to be stuck onto each and every item you wish to charge?



Rubbish.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 17, 2009)

editor said:


> You don't think aesthetics come into it? LOL!


I'll take availability over aesthetics when I go shopping _LOL!_


editor said:


> I know you're determined to be, like, _really down_ on the Pre, but that pug-ugly, botched up, strap-on-a-ghastly-skin 'solution' you posted up is hardly an example of integrated wireless charging.


Tell me where I said it was? It's just an example of wireless charging that someone could *buy* if they wanted it. It's a first gen product from a third party, it's never going to integrate as well as 1st party add-ons. 

As for being down on the Pre, accusing me of being "really down on the Pre" is like someone accusing you of being really down on the iPhone. And  we all know what you say to people who accuse you of that, don't we?

I think the Pre has a lot of potential. Until it's on the market, _all_ it has is potential.

As someone who has owned four PalmOS devices starting with a US Robotics Palm Professional in 1997, I liked Palm a lot back when they were making good products. I'd say that they lost the plot about 6 years ago when they stopped supporting the Mac, stopped any significant PalmOS development, moved to make Windows phones and concentrated on a bunch of pretty average products which held no interest for me. 

I'm pleased that things are changing and think the Pre is the first sign that they're back on the right track

What I _don't_ think is that all that Palm (or any other company) do is good and should be accepted without question, and that everything about the Pre is new, completely innovative and made of chocolate kittens. You know, like your own approach to the iPhone.

Bringing the thread back on topic, any idea whether the Touchstone will work if you put your Pre in an in-use case? All the cases on the Palm site involve you taking the phone out of the case to use it or charge it. How close to the Touchstone does the phone have to be to charge?


----------



## editor (Apr 18, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> As for being down on the Pre, accusing me of being "really down on the Pre" is like someone accusing you of being really down on the iPhone. And  we all know what you say to people who accuse you of that, don't we?


Yes. I'd say they're a bit confused or just dishonest, because I've done nothing but praise the iPhone recently. I've never liked Apple's control freakery, but the iPhone is an excellent handset.

Back on topic, here's a vid showing .


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 18, 2009)

Dell would probably make a lot of sense. They want in to the smartphone market abd could just grab a ready made set up with huge potential. Palm could do with a big cash injection too...


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2009)

'Kin _schlebs_ are getting first dibs on the Pre: http://mypre.com/angelina-jolie-likes-her-pre-will-adopt-8-more-2009201354


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2009)

Wall Street are still loving the Pre with one analyst thinking they may ship over 6m handsets. I'd be happy with just the one shipped to me please. 





> Palm Stock Continues Climb on New Upgrade
> April 20, 2009 11:24:18 AM
> 
> Even on a largely down day for the Dow, Palm's stock is surpassing its 52 week high and is now trading above $10 for the first time since the Elevation recapitalization. Palm shares have continued to rise since the unveiling of the Pre back in January. Despite a number of claims that PALM is fully valued amid all of the hype and expectations for the Pre, the stock continues to receive analyst upgrades.
> ...


More: http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2009/04/20/palm-merrill-ups-rating-to-buy-sets-14-target/


----------



## jayeola (Apr 21, 2009)

editor said:


> I'd be happy with just the one shipped to me please.


Join the queue, bud.


----------



## sumimasen (Apr 21, 2009)

This is getting ridiculous.  Palm obviously know their release date, for what possible reason would they not share it.  It's bordering on childishness!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 21, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> This is getting ridiculous.  Palm obviously know their release date, for what possible reason would they not share it.  It's bordering on childishness!



They're playing cat and mouse with Apple I think...


----------



## editor (Apr 21, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> They're playing cat and mouse with Apple I think...


It would certainly be in Apple's interests to try and divert attention from Palm's big day.


----------



## jæd (Apr 21, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> They're playing cat and mouse with Apple I think...



They _have_ to release the Pre sometime in May. Any later and they will bump into Apple (almost certainly) announcing the new iPhone at the start of the 2009 WWDC in June. The new iPhone will probably be released in July. (No-brainer...)


----------



## Radar (Apr 22, 2009)

Well whenever the 3G version comes out, anyone with a bit of cop spending their own readies will hang back for a month or so to see if there's any show-stoppers lurking in there.

Can you really see the 3G version coming out in Q2 ??


----------



## Sunray (Apr 22, 2009)

jæd said:


> They _have_ to release the Pre sometime in May. Any later and they will bump into Apple (almost certainly) announcing the new iPhone at the start of the 2009 WWDC in June. The new iPhone will probably be released in July. (No-brainer...)



Well, they are saying 1st Half 2009.  Thats Jan-Jun.  They have 10 weeks to launch in the US. Plenty of time if they have the warehouses filled with phones.  Much tougher if they are still fixing critical bugs in the software.

Its not like Palm are short of expertise in releasing hardware, so I'd say the former is probably the most likely scenario.


----------



## jayeola (Apr 23, 2009)

I've just seen a palm treo pro on kinsington high street. It's running win mobile. This aint the pre is it? What os will the pre run?


----------



## Crispy (Apr 23, 2009)

jayeola said:


> I've just seen a palm treo pro on kinsington high street. It's running win mobile. This aint the pre is it? What os will the pre run?


Palm: Pre, *webOS* & app discussion


----------



## sumimasen (Apr 23, 2009)

Palm: *Pre*, webOS & app discussion


----------



## jayeola (Apr 24, 2009)

Ahem.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 24, 2009)

*webOS*


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 24, 2009)

Well you're all wrong, I named this thread and I say the focus is Palm.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2009)

No one actually knows for sure of course, but Credit Suisse analysts reckons that the Pre could sell for significantly less than the iPhone, which would certainly help it gain market traction.
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=15156&news=Palm+Pre+webOS+Sprint


----------



## sumimasen (Apr 25, 2009)

"...The GSM version for Europe and Latin America may debut later this year..."  Great, the UK can't even be guaranteed a release date in 2009.  <anger rising>


----------



## Sunray (Apr 25, 2009)

Looks like the 3rd gen iPhone will be in the UK before the Pre.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 25, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> "...The GSM version for Europe and Latin America may debut later this year..."  Great, the UK can't even be guaranteed a release date in 2009.  <anger rising>



Hmmm but didn't Palm say the Pre would launch in Europe 1st half of this year also?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 25, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Looks like the 3rd gen iPhone will be in the UK before the Pre.



Ah well, that's them fucked then.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 25, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Hmmm but didn't Palm say the Pre would launch in Europe 1st half of this year also?



Open to some interpretation.




			
				Palm Pre Press release said:
			
		

> Availability and Pricing Palm Pre is scheduled to be available first in the United States exclusively from Sprint in the first half of 2009, and will be followed by a world-ready UMTS version for other regions



The US version is EV-DO rev A so no point getting your US mate to send you one.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Ah well, that's them fucked then.


So long as the Pre delivers on the tech front and is supported by keen pricing and strong advertising, I think the Palm will do very well indeed.

It's already picked up massive press interest and I can't see that all disappearing overnight just because another version of the iPhone is coming along.

The Pre is quite a different phone offering different features and strengths and not everyone wants an iPhone.

If the European Pre release date slips back in Europe too far, I'll probably get a s/hand G1 to bide me over or summat.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 25, 2009)

I'm getting a new current gen smartphone in July so if Palm want my money they better get it out. My iPod is basically dying now so getting an iPhone with decent storage is a serious temptation.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 25, 2009)

32gb is a near certainty for the iPhone.  

Thats one decision I can't quite fathom for the Pre and one I hope they correct quickly.  8Gb with no expansion.  All my apps for take up a few Mb so the Gb's of storage is for files or for entertainment and 8Gb suddenly isn't so great.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 25, 2009)

Makes no sense. If they gave it 8gb of storage with Micro SD slot, you could have up to 40gb in your pocket*. The way SD card prices fall it would make a lot of sense. 

*Although I wish they would hurry up and release 32gb micro SD.


----------



## editor (Apr 25, 2009)

It's down to pricing. Not everyone needs 32GB and not everyone wants to fork out the extra for 32GB. If Palm are looking to woo people with a keen pricing, then 8GN is a decent compromise. After all, that's a fair bit of storage for all but the hardcore multimedia freaks.

I wish it had come with a SD card slot though - then it would have ticked _all_ my boxes.

Oh, and a bit of press:



> Palm Pre Something to Tweet About
> Palm's(PALM Quote) upcoming Pre smartphone is a hit already, if your measurements include how much Web site and blog space is devoted to the new touch-screen device. The device is a hot topic on Twitter.com, garnering nearly 33 million online mentions so far.
> 
> http://www.thestreet.com/story/10491209/1/palm-pre-something-to-tweet-about.html


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 26, 2009)

Sunray said:


> 32gb is a near certainty for the iPhone.
> 
> Thats one decision I can't quite fathom for the Pre and one I hope they correct quickly.  8Gb with no expansion.  All my apps for take up a few Mb so the Gb's of storage is for files or for entertainment and 8Gb suddenly isn't so great.



Me either, I have just over 16 gigs of music plus apps, and probably would have some vids, I need 20 gig absolute minimum.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 26, 2009)

editor said:


> It's down to pricing. Not everyone needs 32GB and not everyone wants to fork out the extra for 32GB. If Palm are looking to woo people with a keen pricing, then 8GN is a decent compromise. After all, that's a fair bit of storage for all but the hardcore multimedia freaks.
> 
> I wish it had come with a SD card slot though - then it would have ticked _all_ my boxes.
> 
> Oh, and a bit of press:



Choice is never a bad thing. Obvious to have a range of phones with various memory configurations. 

I'm running 13gb music and thats because I trim it of stuff I know I've not listened to. 

Priority is to release it? Are they just going to launch it or are they going to give a date?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 26, 2009)

editor said:


> It's down to pricing. Not everyone needs 32GB and not everyone wants to fork out the extra for 32GB. If Palm are looking to woo people with a keen pricing, then 8GN is a decent compromise. After all, that's a fair bit of storage for all but the hardcore multimedia freaks.
> 
> I wish it had come with a SD card slot though - then it would have ticked _all_ my boxes.
> 
> Oh, and a bit of press:



What I meant was by including a micro SD slot you could give people the choice. 8gb will be enough for many, but those who wanted to could add an additional 16gb or 32gb.


----------



## sumimasen (Apr 26, 2009)

They're gonna 'do an Apple', and will include the slot on Pre v2 in 2010.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 27, 2009)

New blog post from someone at Sprint with lots of useful info.

Details on "First Use", how to make your Pre faster if it becomes sluggish, how to extend battery life, how to transfer data from your desktop, integration of IM and SMS/MMS, all sounds very interesting and the blogger says they work well in practice.

There is a curious statement that "the only actual device complaint is the inability to select/hilight text on a webpage" which I'd have thought would be one of the main places you'd want to select text. Could be that he/she got it wrong or that they're not talking 'select' in a cut'n'paste context.

The blogger says that actual release date is soon...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 28, 2009)

Hmmm tips on how to extend battery life or performance don't inspire confidence.


----------



## Radar (Apr 28, 2009)

And I'm not a great fan of handsets that won't tether either (but that could just be a sop to Sprint for the US market)


----------



## jæd (Apr 28, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Hmmm tips on how to extend battery life or performance don't inspire confidence.



Nor does : "# Make sure a data-intensive app isn’t running in the background (e.g., Music)."  And with just 8gb it doesn't seem much of an iPhone killer...

Hopefully it wil be out soon so we can through all the hype and speculation...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 28, 2009)

jæd said:


> Nor does : "# Make sure a data-intensive app isn’t running in the background (e.g., Music)."  And with just 8gb it doesn't seem much of an iPhone killer...
> 
> *Hopefully it wil be out soon so we can through all the hype and speculation...*



Yep...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 28, 2009)

jæd said:


> Nor does : "# Make sure a data-intensive app isn’t running in the background (e.g., Music)."  And with just 8gb it doesn't seem much of an iPhone killer...
> 
> Hopefully it wil be out soon so we can through all the hype and speculation...




TBF any phone is going to suffer from poor battery life if you leave lots of apps running in the background that use the features like GPS and wireless/data connection. If people haven't had a phone that can multi task before its worth reminding them of the fact.


----------



## editor (Apr 29, 2009)

Some early SDK emulator shots. The interface is already looking very slick and clean.







http://www.prethinking.com/webos-early-sdk/webos-early-sdk/2248834

(*one image fixed)


----------



## Crispy (Apr 29, 2009)

image no work 
but the link does  - very nice looking


----------



## editor (Apr 29, 2009)

Crispy said:


> image no work


Really? I can see 'em OK. Try following the link instead.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 29, 2009)

editor said:


> Really? I can see 'em OK. Try following the link instead.



Yeah, if you've already viewed an image at the original site, your browser will show it in the thread using the copy from its cache. But if you haven't visited the link yet, the image won't work. This is the case for all sites that don't allow hotlinked images.


----------



## newbie (Apr 29, 2009)

are those buttons at the bottom intended for use with a stylus?  They don't look finger sized


----------



## Crispy (Apr 29, 2009)

newbie said:


> are those buttons at the bottom intended for use with a stylus?  They don't look finger sized


That's the status bar of the emulator window


----------



## newbie (Apr 29, 2009)

Oh.

so it is


----------



## editor (Apr 29, 2009)

Later rumour suggests that Palm is planning a _balls-of-steel_ launch the day before the iPhone.



> The really ballsy part, if it's true, is the utter confidence Palm must have in their product to think they can overshadow whatever Apple decides to launch in the way of a new iPhone the following day. There's been a few rumours that it's a tablet and low end iPhone we'll be seeing in which case the Pre would stand out. Perhaps a few of the ex-Apple employees over at Palm still have some buddies on the inside.


http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/04...t-the-pre-the-day-before-apples-wwdc-keynote/


----------



## Crispy (Apr 29, 2009)

Bloody hell, that is gutsy.

That apple tablet rumour _again_


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 29, 2009)

Haha gutsy! Total genius or utter fool move.


----------



## jæd (Apr 30, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Haha gutsy! Total genius or utter fool move.



It would be completely foolish. During the run up to the WWDC there's going to be umpteen rumours of Mac Mini Laptops, Tablets, the "amazing" features of the iPhone 3.0, etc.

The Pre launch would be news for a day, but the WWDC keynote and any new products (and associated hype) would mean everyone would forget it. There's also umpteen zillion devs in San Francisco, all talking about the GSM iPhone.

(GSM matters because it will be hard to switch over from AT+T to Sprint. Palm would have to sell or give away "unlocked" Palm Pre's to developers)

It also means that Palm would be trying to position the Pre as a competitor to the Iphone. Its an 8gb CDMA "fun" smartphone with a (probably) low price point. The iPhone 3.0 will be 32 Gb, an established App base, and much higher price point.


----------



## paolo (Apr 30, 2009)

If it's true, then I'm not convinced it's automatically a doomed launch.

The one thing it will do is absolutely lay clear to the media who Palm believe they are competing head-on with. Every review of the Apple offering will mention Palm, so they'd get a free ride on the juggernaut.

They'd best be doing it in the bay area though


----------



## Sunray (Apr 30, 2009)

I'm not convinced that Apple will release a low cost iPhone when their existing model sells so well?

Why would you undercut yourself?


----------



## jæd (Apr 30, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I'm not convinced that Apple will release a low cost iPhone when their existing model sells so well?
> 
> Why would you undercut yourself?



I thinks increadibly unlikely based on Apple's business strategy : "Selling computer stuff we like at a premium because we can". Why can muppet pundits understand this...?


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

jæd said:


> The Pre launch would be news for a day, but the WWDC keynote and any new products (and associated hype) would mean everyone would forget it.


I think you're a bit out of touch here. The Pre and its new OS already has received *enormous* publicity and I can't see all that disappearing overnight just because Apple release the third iteration of a phone that - so far - appears to only offer an incremental upgrade to the last two. 

Early guesstimates suggest that it's going sell for less than the iPhone, and if the early reviews/previews are anything to go by, it easily matches (and in some areas) surpasses the current iPhones in many areas. 

Incidentally, Palm are now rumoured to be prepping a second 'nano' style phone for later this year.

http://mypre.com/palm-releasing-smaller-mini-pre-in-late-2009-2009301412


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 30, 2009)

I think letting slip of another phone so soon after the Pre will be about isn't wise tbh.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I think letting slip of another phone so soon after the Pre will be about isn't wise tbh.


If it's targeting a totally different demographic, I can't see how it will have a negative impact.

Companies like Nokia have released wide ranges of models _simultaneously_ for years and they seem to have done alright. 

If anything, the second, smaller model will strengthen the brand, and substantially broaden the appeal of Palm.


----------



## jæd (Apr 30, 2009)

editor said:


> I think you're a bit out of touch here. The Pre and its new OS already has received *enormous* publicity and I can't see all that disappearing overnight just because Apple release the third iteration of a phone that - so far - appears to only offer an incremental upgrade to the last two.



Its received enormous publicity in the tech press. In the mainstream media there was one story back when it was launched.  The iPhone had the mainstream press going gaa-gaa for months.  I see iPhone 3.0 as the iPhone with all the snags people bleated on endlessly about removed. Its actually quite good. 



editor said:


> Early guesstimates suggest that it's going sell for less than the iPhone, and if the early reviews/previews are anything to go by, it easily matches (and in some areas) surpasses the current iPhones in many areas.



This is all based on "ifs" and speculation. The iPhone 3.0 firmware is easily downloaded.



editor said:


> Incidentally, Palm are now rumoured to be prepping a second 'nano' style phone for later this year.



Bad idea and unlikely. Unless Pre come up with a very good method of developing for different screen sizes it would fragement an already small number of developers.

Palm need to release a second phone in about 6 / 8 months from the first, but I think it will a 16 gb version.


----------



## jæd (Apr 30, 2009)

editor said:


> Companies like Nokia have released wide ranges of models _simultaneously_ for years and they seem to have done alright.



The majority of Nokia's phones weren't smart-phones with scads of developers writing 3rd party software.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

jæd said:


> Its received enormous publicity in the tech press. In the mainstream media there was one story back when it was launched.  The iPhone had the mainstream press going gaa-gaa for months.  I see iPhone 3.0 as the iPhone with all the snags people bleated on endlessly about removed. Its actually quite good.


The iPhone is already a good phone but v3 is still more or less the same phone as the 3G model and it's going to be pretty hard for the press to get into such a lather over something they've already seen.

That's not to say that it won't still get a ton of press hyperbole - that's what Apple excel at after all - but the notion that as soon as it's announced all interest in the (let's be honest, far more interesting) Palm Pre will disappear instantly seems hugely unlikely.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 30, 2009)

editor said:


> If it's targeting a totally different demographic, I can't see how it will have a negative impact.
> 
> Companies like Nokia have released wide ranges of models _simultaneously_ for years and they seem to have done alright.
> 
> If anything, the second, smaller model will strengthen the brand, and substantially broaden the appeal of Palm.



I don't agree, Palm don't have the luxury of dividing people's attention like this. They need to focus on doing one thing, the Pre, right and right first time. 

You can't have situation where nobody knows when it's released then start wondering whether they should just hold out for another phone or not when you're a company in Palm's position.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I don't agree, Palm don't have the luxury of dividing people's attention like this. They need to focus on doing one thing, the Pre, right and right first time.


Well, that's your opinion but I fancy Palm have a little bit more expertise in this area.

As far as I can see they've spent an awful long time making sure they get the Pre right, but it would seem bizarre to me that they wouldn't look to expand their range to try and attract different demographics.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 30, 2009)

We'll have to agree to disagree but I never said they shouldn't release another unit just not so soon (I think they drop a 16 or 32 gigger around Spring 2010). They are on the edge of the abyss as a company and they have only one good shot at salvaging a future for themselves, they cannot risk it by mucking up the launch or the product. Letting people think there's another unit coming so soon after the Pre will undermine it.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree but I never said they shouldn't release another unit just not so soon (I think they drop a 16 or 32 gigger around Spring 2010). They are on the edge of the abyss as a company and they have only one good shot at salvaging a future for themselves, they cannot risk it by mucking up the launch or the product. Letting people think there's another unit coming so soon after the Pre will undermine it.


But if it's a completely different sort of phone why would it make any difference? I want the one with a keyboard, so I don't care what's coming after. 

You could say the same about Apple announcing their v3 iPhone a while ago, but that hasn't stopped people buying the current model in droves.


----------



## jæd (Apr 30, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree but I never said they shouldn't release another unit just not so soon (I think they drop a 16 or 32 gigger around Spring 2010). They are on the edge of the abyss as a company and they have only one good shot at salvaging a future for themselves, they cannot risk it by mucking up the launch or the product. Letting people think there's another unit coming so soon after the Pre will undermine it.



Its called the Osbourne Effect.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect )

And people _are_ delaying purchase of the iPhone because there's one on the horizon. Its why iPhone 3gs are being discounted...


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

jæd said:


> Its called the Osbourne Effect.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect )
> 
> And people _are_ delaying purchase of the iPhone because there's one on the horizon. Its why iPhone 3gs are being discounted...


Except the other (rumoured) Palm phone has not been announced, a release date has not been set and its existence hasn't even been confirmed.

I fancy that rather sinks your point - unless you think people are labouring under the illusion that Palm will never, ever release any other phone apart from the Pre.


----------



## jæd (Apr 30, 2009)

editor said:


> Except the other (rumoured) Palm phone has not been announced, a release date has not been set and its existence hasn't even been confirmed.
> 
> I fancy that rather sinks your point - unless you think people are labouring under the illusion that Palm will never, ever release any other phone apart from the Pre.



I was responding to you point about the iPhone. I know two mates who are delaying buying it until the new one comes out.

If people seriously thought there was Palm Pre 16 Gb version coming out soon (ie 2 months) after the Pre then they might delaying buying it... Same with the Palm Nano.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

jæd said:


> If people seriously thought there was Palm Pre 16 Gb version coming out soon (ie 2 months) after the Pre then they might delaying buying it... Same with the Palm Nano.


There has been no announcement about a second Palm Pre, although it's probable that there will be larger capacity versions at an unspecified later date. 

The 'Nano' is only an unsubstantiated Internet rumour and if it does exist it is likely to be an entirely different kind of phone appealing to a different kind of demographic.

I fail to see how either of the above will influence the sales of Palm's sole announced handset.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

In line with all good web rumours, a suitably vague and blurry photo of the 'second' Palm phone has emerged with it looking a bit like a stretched Centro.








http://mypre.com/palm-webos-qwerty-candybar-image-leaks-2009301415

Can't say I'm convinced yet.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 30, 2009)

jæd said:


> I was responding to you point about the iPhone. I know two mates who are delaying buying it until the new one comes out.
> 
> If people seriously thought there was Palm Pre 16 Gb version coming out soon (ie 2 months) after the Pre then they might delaying buying it... Same with the Palm Nano.



Yep, I'm not going to buy a Pre on day one if a new phone is anywhere near confirmed. I have this horrible feeling Palm may fuck this all up...


----------



## hendo (Apr 30, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I have this horrible feeling Palm may fuck this all up...



You're not on your own; see this piece in the FT today, which suggests the Pre could be 'DOA' which is a bit strong for a phone that hasn't even seen the market yet, but there you go. .


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yep, I'm not going to buy a Pre on day one if a new phone is anywhere near confirmed.


I must admit, I don't understand your logic here. 

If the Pre matches your technical and pricing preferences, to hold back from buying it just because there's another phone on the distant horizon  - which may not even match your requirements - seems really odd.





hendo said:


> You're not on your own; see this piece in the FT today, which suggests the Pre could be 'DOA' which is a bit strong for a phone that hasn't even seen the market yet, but there you go. .


He does seem to be out on a limb with his opinion there, unless he has special insider access. 

  But if he is right, then I'll be looking at an Android device, I guess.


----------



## jæd (Apr 30, 2009)

hendo said:


> You're not on your own; see this piece in the FT today, which suggests the Pre could be 'DOA' which is a bit strong for a phone that hasn't even seen the market yet, but there you go. .



This is a bit incorrect:

'Finally, he does not view Palm as an attractive takeover candidate: “Their crown jewel is the OS, but the smart phone industry is migrating away from closed to open platforms. As such Palm is on the wrong side of the fence.”'

Android is the only really "open" platform around. And Palm's WebOs is supposed to be open as well. 

If Palm position it as a iPhone killer then it will fail (like all the others). If they position as a fun, cheap, smart-phone it will be fine...


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 30, 2009)

There have been a few reports that Palm may restrict availability of the Pre to ensure it sells out on release, which could tie in with what the guy was saying about limited production. They're preparing hype with the "Palm Pre Protest Guy" viral casting.

I've also seen a few rumoured prices of $300 for the Pre which I'm assuming is with a Sprint plan, placing it above the AT&T iPhone price-wise. And the Palm head-honcho did say "Why would we sell it cheaper than the iPhone when it's a better product?" when asked about pricing.

The Americans will find out soon enough. I suspect Palm want to get a solid US launch under their belts before negotiating deals with EU carriers to ensure they get the best deal, much as Apple did with the iPhone. That would push out an EU launch a few months, but could still be Oct/Nov, I'd have thought.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 30, 2009)

hendo said:


> You're not on your own; see this piece in the FT today, which suggests the Pre could be 'DOA' which is a bit strong for a phone that hasn't even seen the market yet, but there you go. .



Some of that is worrying, you might want to restrict sales at the start deliberately like Apple did with the 3G, but when people started to get annoyed at how long it was talking suddenly they became universally available.

If they have only ordered 1 million handsets, that's a crazy low number and might be a hole in the head for Palm. They are in the business of selling phones are they not?


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

jæd said:


> This is a bit incorrect:
> 
> 'Finally, he does not view Palm as an attractive takeover candidate: “Their crown jewel is the OS, but the smart phone industry is migrating away from closed to open platforms. As such Palm is on the wrong side of the fence.”'


That is a very strange statement to make seeing as the most successful smartphone at the moment is the _none-more-closed_, uber-proprietary iPhone, with the equally closed Blackberry OS not far behind.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

More rumours of the Palm 'Eos', plus less-blurry shot. Looks good, but it's not for me because the screen's too small, the cam's a bit duff and there's bugger all storage.





> _Rumor:_ Moments after the first blurry-cam shot of an unknown WebOS based device began making the rounds, Engadget has obtained a host of new details and specs on the unannounced device. The device itself may be called the *Palm Eos* and could be headed to AT&T in the fall if the source is indeed correct.     Engadget's leaked rendering of the device shows it taking a similar form factor to the classic Treo and Centro design. Spec-wise is is said to be a a quadband GSM / HSDPA phone and will supposedly be only 10.6mm (.42" inches) thin. It will measure 55mm x 111mm (~ 2.1" x 4.3" inches), weigh 100 grams (3.52 ounces), and will sport a 2.63-inch, 320 x 400 capacitive display. Curiously absent at this time is any mention of WiFi, though without any official word everything about this unit is still very much up in the air.
> 
> Engadget lists the known specs at this time as:
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 30, 2009)

editor said:


> I must admit, I don't understand your logic here.
> 
> If the Pre matches your technical and pricing preferences, to hold back from buying it just because there's another phone on the distant horizon  - which may not even match your requirements - seems really odd.He does seem to be out on a limb with his opinion there, unless he has special insider access.
> 
> But if he is right, then I'll be looking at an Android device, I guess.



It's dependent on the Pre coming out in the UK by July, if it doesn't Palm loses my money as I'm not waiting any longer. It has one shot at getting it right and the fact that Palm aren't shutting this speculation down makes me wonder if it's true or if Palm's pr is pretty crap...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 30, 2009)

Heh just thought of an amusing conspiracy theory, what if all these rumours are started by Apple?


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It's dependent on the Pre coming out in the UK by July, if it doesn't Palm loses my money as I'm not waiting any longer. It has one shot at getting it right and the fact that Palm aren't shutting this speculation down makes me wonder if it's true or if Palm's pr is pretty crap...


The vast majority of Palm's target audience won't be bothered at all- it's only impatient tech-freaks like ourselves who are getting all hot and bothered abut release dates.

I'm slowly  beginning to resign myself to maybe buying a s/hand G1 to tide me over until the Pre surfaces. At least at the end of that I'll have all my data 'in the cloud' so it'll be a piece of piss to transfer everything over.

PS I'm not sure how you expect Palm to 'shut speculation down.' Apple have it every day.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 30, 2009)

editor said:


> PS I'm not sure how you expect Palm to 'shut speculation down.' Apple have it every day.



They could easily deny it and announce some new titbit of info which would shift the coverage on from these potentially sales damaging reports. Android is interesting but neither of the current set of handsets inspire me, I don't see anything new coming out by the time I'll be buying so my next choice will be a Blackberry or the new iPhone.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> They could easily deny it and announce some new titbit of info which would shift the coverage on from these potentially sales damaging reports.


I don't think it is damaging to have people constantly talking about Palm in the news, and their rising share price seems to back that up.

And if they 'deny' anything they end up giving away info to competitors. They're just doing what Apple do, IMO.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 30, 2009)

If they deny it they don't give any advantage to their competitors, and like I said they need to sway and influence the narrative. I don't really see them doing that with their lack of response to this...


----------



## g force (May 1, 2009)

editor said:


> In line with all good web rumours, a suitably vague and blurry photo of the 'second' Palm phone has emerged with it looking a bit like a stretched Centro.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks like a BlackBerry Curve with extended screen! But as you say it could be anyything in that pic


----------



## Xanadu (May 1, 2009)

So, I'm guessing UK release date is several months away?

My phone is knackered now, and I'm desperate for something new.  Alas, I'm not sure what to go for.  Seems like the choices are something good for web browsing (the Nokia E71 or Blackberry Bold), or something with a 3.5mm headphone out for MP3 playing/flash for taking pictures (the Nokia N96 or Sony Ericsson C905).


----------



## editor (May 1, 2009)

Xanadu said:


> So, I'm guessing UK release date is several months away?


Most likely but it could be earlier. No one knows at the moment and it's ruddy frustrating.


----------



## Xanadu (May 1, 2009)

editor said:


> Most likely but it could be earlier. No one knows at the moment and it's ruddy frustrating.



I don't think I can wait long enough 

Though, in July, this baby is coming out:  http://shop.vodafone.co.uk/shop/mobile-phone/nokia-n97?WT.srch=1


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 1, 2009)

Yeah I can't wait either really, just about had enough of the quaint Palm Centro and want something with a bigger screen and better apps...


----------



## editor (May 1, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yeah I can't wait either really, just about had enough of the quaint Palm Centro and want something with a bigger screen and better apps...


The Centro has aged rapidly even though some of the apps are excellent and it's far more usable than a lot of newer phones.

I've been humbled more than a few times when I've had to ask to borrow someone's iPhone/G1 etc to view a website that the Centro couldn't muster and the lack of GPS has become a pain.

I'm thinking that a s/hand G1 may be my only way to cure those waiting blues.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 1, 2009)

Yeah it is a great little phone whicj has served me very well but its time has come to an end.  Apps are key but screen size is a major factor for me now...


----------



## Crispy (May 1, 2009)

Loads more info on the 2nd WebOS phone, called the Eos, apparently

http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/30/palm-eos-super-thin-3g-and-headed-to-atandt/








> 4GB storage
> Price: $349 (pre-rebate)
> Camera: 2 megapixel fixed focus digital camera and flash / video capture
> Connectivity: Bluetooth 2.1 w/ A2DP and EDR, USB 2.0 via micro USB
> Removable 1150 mAh battery (4 hours 3G talk time)


----------



## Lazy Llama (May 1, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Loads more info on the 2nd WebOS phone, called the Eos, apparently


Editor beat you to it - http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=9075359&postcount=1017


----------



## editor (May 1, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Editor beat you to it - http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=9075359&postcount=1017


I am *so* on the ball.


----------



## Crispy (May 1, 2009)

I'm so off the ball, the ball's on me. Or something


----------



## editor (May 1, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I'm so off the ball, the ball's on me. Or something


It's hard to get comfy on the ball though. 
*kicks it over to Crispy


----------



## editor (May 2, 2009)

Now, here's a wild one:





> * Palm: Will Foleo Be Revived As A Netbook?*
> 
> Is *Palm* (PALM) working on a netbook?
> *Trip Chowdhry, an analyst with Global Equities Research*, asserts in a note to clients today that Palm is doing exactly that: he says they intend to produce a $399 netbook that will run the *Palm Web OS* that debuts soon on the eagerly awaiting *Pre* smartphone. Chowdhry says the device will use *Qualcomm*’s (QCOM) Gobi 3G wireless chip, *ARM* (ARMHY) chipsets and have 8-10 hours of battery life. He says the device is being designed by three ex-*Apple* (AAPL) iPod guys. He also says the netbook will only support browser-based applications, and not “native applications.”
> ...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 2, 2009)

Why would you buy a machine with a non standard OS? Palm should stick to making phones for now.


----------



## Sunray (May 2, 2009)

WebOS netbook v Windows Netbook

Extreme fail.

I can get a fairly decent Atom based netbook that has 6-7 hours battery that can run firefox and other standard applications. What would possess me to buy one that doesn't?

http://www.dabs.com/products/hp-com...idescreen-5HVX.html?refs=4294952000-423160000

272 is about 399 US.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 2, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Why would you buy a machine with a non standard OS? Palm should stick to making phones for now.



Indeed. If its a retarded netbook like the fooleo then Palm are real idiots...just get the bloody Pre release ffs Palm!


----------



## editor (May 2, 2009)

Sunray said:


> WebOS netbook v Windows Netbook
> 
> Extreme fail..


Best see if it exists and see what it does before declaring it a failure, I'd say.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 2, 2009)

What features would you like to see to make you buy one over a windows based netbook?


----------



## editor (May 2, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> What features would you like to see to make you buy one over a windows based netbook?


Full 3G integration with GPS and synergy would be an interesting start, but I'm not judging it until I see something solid about it.


----------



## editor (May 6, 2009)

A few more trickles of info: there's going to be full support for Office 2007, ringback tones, and custom ringtones, with the promise of video recording support and wireless PictBridge printing further down the line.

Interesting facts for the impatient types here insisting that Palm are screwing everything up by taking so long to release it:

iPhone: announced on January 9, 2007
released on June 29, 2007

Pre: announced on January 8, 2009
...


----------



## Sunray (May 6, 2009)

Steve Jobs announced the date it was going to be available to buy and they stuck to it.

Palm have yet to do that apart from the vague 1st half of this year if it all goes to plan.

Never predict the future, generally going to be wrong.
http://www.computerworld.com/action...&articleId=9008439&taxonomyId=15&pageNumber=1


----------



## g force (May 6, 2009)

I don't believe that analyst or indeed many analysts. I bet he's saying all of that while also recommending his clients buy stock then as the share price rises, dump it.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 6, 2009)

editor said:


> A few more trickles of info: there's going to be full support for Office 2007, ringback tones, and custom ringtones, with the promise of video recording support and wireless PictBridge printing further down the line.
> *
> Interesting facts for the impatient types here insisting that Palm are screwing everything up by taking so long to release it:*
> 
> ...



Who's doing that? 

All I've said is they should announce when it's going to be released and focus on the Pre and stop all this crap about other phones and devices...Apple announced it in Jan and said when it was going to be released.


----------



## Lazy Llama (May 6, 2009)

Palm have announced their Pre partner for Canada:


> TORONTO, May 06, 2009 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Palm, Inc. (NASDAQALM) today announced that Palm Pre(TM), the first phone based on the new Palm(R) webOS(TM) mobile platform, will debut in Canada exclusively on Bell Mobility's 3G high-speed mobile network in the second half of 2009.


http://investor.palm.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=382075

There's also a CNet article comparing Pre and iPhone multi-tasking and notifications.


----------



## jæd (May 6, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Palm have announced their Pre partner for Canada:
> 
> http://investor.palm.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=382075



Bell Mobility has a CDMA network so its likely they will be deploying this version. I would guess mid-August to September. I would also guess at the first week of July for the US Pre launch. (So that there's enough seperation but continued interest...)



Lazy Llama said:


> There's also a CNet article comparing Pre and iPhone multi-tasking and notifications.



There's also an overview of Pre multi-tasking and notifications at : http://developer.palm.com/webos_book/book3.html


----------



## g force (May 7, 2009)

But no word on European or UK networks? Does that suggest a September/October UK launch?


----------



## editor (May 7, 2009)

The Centro took ages to make it over to the UK after its US launch, so maybe we will suffer the same kind of delay. Or maybe not.


----------



## g force (May 7, 2009)

Network is the big thing for me...I can hold off choosing for a while - but if it's not here by October, forget it.


----------



## sumimasen (May 7, 2009)

My contract ended in March.  Since then I've been on the exorbant PAYG tariff waiting for the Pre.  No way can I wait till Autumn, I'll have to become an iBitch this June instead I guess.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 7, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> My contract ended in March.  Since then I've been on the exorbant PAYG tariff waiting for the Pre.  No way can I wait till Autumn, I'll have to become an iBitch this June instead I guess.



What network you on?


----------



## editor (May 7, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> My contract ended in March.  Since then I've been on the exorbant PAYG tariff waiting for the Pre.  No way can I wait till Autumn, I'll have to become an iBitch this June instead I guess.


I'm impatient as fuck, but if I crack, it'll definitely be for the Google G2 phone.


----------



## Sunray (May 7, 2009)

I think you've been the total definition of patient.

I gave in when the iPhone 3G was released.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 7, 2009)

Looks like I'll be getting the new iPhone in July...


----------



## editor (May 7, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I think you've been the total definition of patient.
> 
> I gave in when the iPhone 3G was released.


Imagine how a techie like me must feel when I have to ask to borrow someone's iPhone/HTC/G1 to look at a website or a map?

The humiliation! My once proud Centro feels like a Nokia clunk-a-brick sometimes.


----------



## editor (May 7, 2009)

Just to tease me further, here's a new video of the Pre in action:
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/252331/video-exclusive-palm-pre-in-action.html

I'm guessing the demo's taking place in the UK. It looks great.


----------



## sumimasen (May 7, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> What network you on?



o2.  Costing me £15-£20 a week due to my usage.



editor said:


> I'm impatient as fuck, but if I crack, it'll definitely be for the Google G2 phone.



First I've heard of it.  I'm off to do a G2 v iPhone assessment...........


----------



## editor (May 7, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> o2.  Costing me £15-£20 a week due to my usage.
> 
> 
> 
> First I've heard of it.  I'm off to do a G2 v iPhone assessment...........


It's also known as the HTC Magic.


----------



## Sunray (May 7, 2009)

editor said:


> Imagine how a techie like me must feel when I have to ask to borrow someone's iPhone/HTC/G1 to look at a website or a map?
> 
> The humiliation! My once proud Centro feels like a Nokia clunk-a-brick sometimes.



Your resistance will make owning it so much sweeter when it finally does get released if you don't own another smart phone.

The Pre will be giant leaps from the Centro.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 7, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> o2.  Costing me £15-£20 a week due to my usage.
> 
> 
> 
> First I've heard of it.  I'm off to do a G2 v iPhone assessment...........



For £20 a month you can get their Sim only deal (I'm on it 600 mins, unlimited texts, free net access) which is only one month rolling contract.


----------



## Lazy Llama (May 7, 2009)

More BGR speculation about an early June, pre-Apple WWDC Pre launch with an alleged Palm internal schedule document.


----------



## sumimasen (May 7, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> For £20 a month you can get their Sim only deal (I'm on it 600 mins, unlimited texts, free net access) which is only one month rolling contract.



Holy shit how did I miss that!  Thank you mate, ordered it just now 

Pre:  you're now within my sights again.


----------



## sumimasen (May 7, 2009)

editor said:


> It's also known as the HTC Magic.



After I read that and was out and about, I did manage to pop into a Vodafone store.  Had a play with the Magic and have to say I was pretty impressed.  It was responsive, the typing texts was accurate, the net worked fast.  I had no opportunity to test out any apps, but as long as the useful ones exist, it deserves to be successful imho. <off to read more relevant thread>


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 7, 2009)

Did you check to see if it was on wifi or the network. When the first iphone came out, I went to have a play with one and the salesman was trying to tell me how fast the net was, till I pointed out I'd expect it to be on the store wifi.


----------



## sumimasen (May 7, 2009)

It was def on the 3G.  Infact the sales rep did mention at the start that this phone operates on some sort of 3.5G (sic) network.  I classed this immediately as bullshit, but it could have subconsciously affected me because it did feel really fast while I was surfing a photo heavy website.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 7, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> It was def on the 3G.  Infact the sales rep did mention at the start that this phone operates on some sort of 3.5G (sic) network.  I classed this immediately as bullshit, but it could have subconsciously affected me because it did feel really fast while I was surfing a photo heavy website.



Not bullshit. Its called HSDPA and its ace.


----------



## sumimasen (May 8, 2009)

Very interesting!  So which phones have this HSDPA (and how much faster is it than 3G, KB/s wise)?

Magic - Yes
iPhone 3G - Obviously no
Pre - ?
Blackberry - ?
Nokia - ?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 8, 2009)

Very quick google suggest yes to the pre, many nokia's, not sure about blackberry as I couldn't be bothered to search for more then 10 seconds for each one. I'm sure if your looking at buying a handset and basing your decision around it, you could check the specs for that model easily enough. 

Worth noting though, just because the phone has it doesn't mean you will get it everywhere you go. Its rare for me to pick it up, but then I don't spend much time in towns/cities. Also worth mentioning that even if you get it, if loads of other people are using it, then you don't connect as fast.


----------



## sumimasen (May 8, 2009)

Cheers GS for summarising what it's all about!

I hardly picked up 3G when I had the iPhone for a few weeks, so I guess it's to be expected that HSDPA would not be an always-on network either.


----------



## Xanadu (May 8, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Very interesting!  So which phones have this HSDPA (and how much faster is it than 3G, KB/s wise)?
> 
> Magic - Yes
> iPhone 3G - Obviously no
> ...



IIRC on Orange, I was getting 200Kb/s downloads on HSDPA


----------



## Crispy (May 8, 2009)

the new iphone in june will very likely have hspda, though


----------



## Lazy Llama (May 8, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> iPhone 3G - Obviously no


iPhone 3G - Actually yes.


Crispy said:


> the new iphone in june will very likely have hspda, though


Pretty likely. The current iPhone 3G has it.


----------



## jæd (May 8, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Cheers GS for summarising what it's all about!
> 
> I hardly picked up 3G when I had the iPhone for a few weeks, so I guess it's to be expected that HSDPA would not be an always-on network either.



Where are you...? I have 3G access about 95 % of the time in London. The 3G blackspots are usually in large buildings or underground bars... Are you sure it wasn't faulty...?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 8, 2009)

Someone doesn't like the keyboard on the Pre. I find the Centro is not too bad after a bit of practice (although I can't type one handed on for shit) so not sure how relevant this is:



> Now for the not great news: our tipster is _not_ a fan of the keyboard at all.  It's quite a bit "harder" than the somewhat rubbery keys on the Palm Centro -- they're not raised up very much and packed very close together. Many a mistake was made because of the cramped keys and the lack of definition between them. Overall the impression was not great.


----------



## editor (May 9, 2009)

I've now got an Android phone to bide me over before the mighty Pre finally emerges in the UK, but Forbes.com are getting very excited about the company's prospects:


> *Palm More Promising Than Apple Or RIM*
> 
> The sharp moves higher in share prices of Apple and RIM look to be tired, but Palm is still full of pep.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/08/re...l-finance-guru-insight-iphone-blackberry.html


----------



## g force (May 9, 2009)

Hardly suprising....Apple and RIM both surging ahead so probably at top range of pricing, Palm uncertain and could be a good buy. In reality it means diddly squat.


----------



## Lazy Llama (May 10, 2009)

Engadget has the news that Best Buy will be getting stock of the Touchstone charger on 10th May (which is today), priced at $70.

Pre can't be far behind...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 10, 2009)

In the US that is...


----------



## editor (May 10, 2009)

With my G1 winging its way to me, I'm feeling a bit more relaxed about waiting for the Pre launch now. At least all my options are open and I'm not stuck to a contract. I'd hate to sign up to something now, find that the Pre really is amazing when it comes out later and be stuck waiting for my contract to finish.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 11, 2009)

I can't see the Pre, as good as it looks, being mind blowingly better than what else is out there tbh.


----------



## editor (May 11, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I can't see the Pre, as good as it looks, being mind blowingly better than what else is out there tbh.


Well, it's got a few things that puts it above others for me, most noticeably its size, synergy functionality, support for older palm apps and a full QWERTY keyboard.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 11, 2009)

Synergy looks good but I can easily live without the others no probs if the phone works well but more importantly the applications are numerous and useful.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 11, 2009)

Is this the first review of the Pre?


----------



## editor (May 11, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Is this the first review of the Pre?


The guy certainly seems impressed, although he may be a tad biased, of course: 





> *Multi-tasking:*
> 
> This is where the phone excels like no other. It truly Multi-tasks and does it with amazing flair. Putting it through a real world test, I started to launch app after app. Pandora, Webpages, email, among a few I cannot name), and the phone had NO LAG whatsoever. The ability to switch between apps using the cards interface was great and you could actually see everything running in the background. This has truly made this phone a revolutionary step in the next direction with operating systems for cell phones.
> 
> Furthermore, notifications kept popping up with emails, texts, etc. and the phone didn’t miss a beat notifying or allowing me to switch between the applications when new notifications popped up. I fell in love with this right away. All too often on several other phones, you have to stop what you are doing to accept an incomming call, text message or email. Not on this phone and it does it with some horsepower and slicker unlike any other device on the market. Apple is going to have a seriously hard time trying to play catch up to the Pre.


----------



## Crispy (May 11, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Is this the first review of the Pre?


Not really, it's a gush from a fanboy who got to hold one for half an hour 

Still, encouraging.


----------



## editor (May 11, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Not really, it's a gush from a fanboy who got to hold one for half an hour
> 
> Still, encouraging.


Accepting the bias of the source, I can't imagine he'd lie about the smoothness of the multitasking because his site would lose all credibility if the Pre came out a stuttering, juddering mess. Mind you, his opinion does tie in with the Pre videos already seen: it does seem very slick and capable.


----------



## jæd (May 11, 2009)

editor said:


> Accepting the bias of the source, I can't imagine he'd lie about the smoothness of the multitasking because his site would lose all credibility if the Pre came out a stuttering, juddering mess. Mind you, his opinion does tie in with the Pre videos already seen: it does seem very slick and capable.



It would depend on the Apps he's putting in the background, and how many would start it juddering.

It also seems Gushing Fanboy had to pay for his encounter with drinks...

I want an independent review...!


----------



## sumimasen (May 11, 2009)

Yep this preview (not review) was certainly not going to be objective.  What buggers me is how he mentions that under the conditions of his article he was not allowed to take photos or mention what the apps are like.  WTF Palm, you're not releasing a nuclear device, enough with the cloak-and-daggers PR theme.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 11, 2009)

jæd said:


> I want an independent review...!



Haha there's no such thing!


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 11, 2009)

jæd said:


> It would depend on the Apps he's putting in the background, and how many would start it juddering.



Indeed. I can have loads of apps running in the background with no effect on the performance my phone, its more about battery life for me when running stuff that uses GPS or a wireless connection.


----------



## Lazy Llama (May 11, 2009)

I suspect that the reason there are no photos and no mention of 'certain apps' is because Palm have some new apps, either 3rd party or their own, lined up for launch and they don't want the info leaking out.

We've already seen some of the 3rd party apps that are being developed and we know that Palm have only released the SDK to a limited subset of developers, but I would imagine Palm want to keep the apps up their sleeves until launch day.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 11, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> I suspect that the reason there are no photos and no mention of 'certain apps' is because Palm have some new apps, either 3rd party or their own, lined up for launch and they don't want the info leaking out.



I thought that was kinda obvious because he says in the piece there are new apps he cannot mention but that are substantial etc...


----------



## editor (May 11, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> I suspect that the reason there are no photos and no mention of 'certain apps' is because Palm have some new apps, either 3rd party or their own, lined up for launch and they don't want the info leaking out.
> 
> We've already seen some of the 3rd party apps that are being developed and we know that Palm have only released the SDK to a limited subset of developers, but I would imagine Palm want to keep the apps up their sleeves until launch day.


Exactly. They spilled a fair few beans at the launch with their synergy technology, and I've no doubt there's developers busy copying that right now, so it's hardly surprising that they're keeping their cards close to their chest.

For the launch, they need other big apps to wow the public so it would be made to start leaking them all out now.


----------



## sumimasen (May 11, 2009)

The apps aren't going to be groundbreaking though are they.  Very cool maybe, but not worthy of top secret classified information.


----------



## Lazy Llama (May 11, 2009)

If they're just run-of-the-mill apps it wouldn't make much sense to be so tetchy about them, but then Palm have been very secretive about the Pre all along. Not allowing people to hold it on their own etc which also hasn't made much sense.


----------



## editor (May 11, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> The apps aren't going to be groundbreaking though are they.  Very cool maybe, but not worthy of top secret classified information.


Their synergy software most definitely was, so maybe they've got more smartypants stuff coming up. Word is that their Facebook client is going to be something a bit special.


----------



## Sunray (May 11, 2009)

editor said:


> The guy certainly seems impressed, although he may be a tad biased, of course:



Multi-tasking was invented in the late 50's. Its not revolutionary.


----------



## Crispy (May 11, 2009)

Dealing with it in a sane way on a mobile phone is pretty clever though


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 11, 2009)

The cards system is very nice, but under Symbian you just press a button to see what is running, under windows mobile you just tap an icon. Its not all that ground breaking.


----------



## Sunray (May 11, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Dealing with it in a sane way on a mobile phone is pretty clever though



Hardly registers a flicker for me.  

Windows Mobile has been doing it since day one.  To state it is revolutionary is crazy talk.

I refer the poster to my comments on what is meant by 'revolution'.


----------



## editor (May 11, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Windows Mobile has been doing it since day one.  To state it is revolutionary is crazy talk.
> 
> I refer the poster to my comments on what is meant by 'revolution'.


Whatever it is, it's about a thousand times more elegant than anything Windows Mobile can muster.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 11, 2009)

It looks pretty and sounds like a nice improvement, but pressing a button that's always at the top of your screen and selecting the app isn't really that hard.


----------



## editor (May 11, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> It looks pretty and sounds like a nice improvement, but pressing a button that's always at the top of your screen and selecting the app isn't really that hard.


What! In WM, apps don't even close when you hit the red 'X' button!

Instead - when you find your phone grinding to a halt - you have to click into the task manager and scroll down to find the program to actually close it. 

Compare with the Pre: flick!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 11, 2009)

editor said:


> What! In WM, apps don't even close when you hit the red 'X' button!
> 
> Instead - when you find your phone grinding to a halt - you have to click into the task manager and scroll down to find the program to actually close it.
> 
> Compare with the Pre: flick!



To be fair, in the two years I had a WM mobile phone I never had it "grind to a halt", it just closed down the least used app in memory to free up space for something new, can't say it was ever a problem...


----------



## editor (May 11, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> To be fair, in the two years I had a WM mobile phone I never had it "grind to a halt", it just closed down the least used app in memory to free up space for something new, can't say it was ever a problem...


I described the Palm's solution as being a whole load more elegant, and from what I've seen, it most defintely is. 

I couldn't believe I had to rummage around in a W95-style task manager just to close a program in WM! Hopeless!


----------



## Sunray (May 11, 2009)

Interestingly, Windows Mobile reasons for working like this is technologically sound.  Its just it doesn't fit the conceptual model of most users have of multi-tasking, memory and power management.    All a bit too exposed.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 11, 2009)

editor said:


> What! In WM, apps don't even close when you hit the red 'X' button!
> 
> Instead - when you find your phone grinding to a halt - you have to click into the task manager and scroll down to find the program to actually close it.
> 
> Compare with the Pre: flick!



I know I came late to the WM party after using Symbian for years, but never had any of this, loads of apps running, no slowdown. Like I said icon at top of the screen, press it for a drop down menu of all you running apps, select or close the app you want from it. So we're talking the difference between one tap or two - hardly the end of the world.







[/IMG]


----------



## jæd (May 11, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Multi-tasking was invented in the late 50's. Its not revolutionary.



Not really, but its a big sigh of relief that finally has a decent UI that works (we hope) on a mobile phone. Not sure about the current version, but the prevous one was a hopeless confusing mess to end users...

That's whats so appealling about the Pre. Someone actually seems to have done things right.


----------



## editor (May 11, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Like I said icon at top of the screen, press it for a drop down menu of all you running apps, select or close the app you want from it. So we're talking the difference between one tap or two - hardly the end of the world.


That's not running the standard WM interface. You're using the HTC Touch-Flo UI which does a good job of covering up the WM cracks but delve in deep enough and you'll soon end up consulting the Task Manager.


----------



## Crispy (May 11, 2009)

'revolutionary' is an over-used word anyway


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 11, 2009)

I honestly haven't had to go beyond it in the last couple months. I can't think of anything that I would need to do so. My only gripe was about the contacts being a bit fiddly and Dutties Rom's solve that. What do you do which would mean that you need to? 

Anyway it doesn't take away from the point that the Palm interface's method of muti tasking is not revolutionary - very nice, but not ground breaking. Symbian has been touch of the button for many many years. 

If the Pre had been available, I would have given it serious thought and next upgrade I'll look closely at Palm OS, provided there are decent mapping apps.


----------



## Xanadu (May 12, 2009)

editor said:


> That's not running the standard WM interface. You're using the HTC Touch-Flo UI which does a good job of covering up the WM cracks but delve in deep enough and you'll soon end up consulting the Task Manager.



I'm not using touchflo, and it's only two taps to close an app.  There's even a setting on my phone to change the function of the close button so it actually closes an application.


----------



## Sunray (May 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> 'revolutionary' is an over-used word anyway



Steve jobs didn't use it in the original iPhone presentation.

He just said he was 're-inventing the mobile phone' which is very accurate.


----------



## editor (May 12, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Steve jobs didn't use it in the original iPhone presentation.
> 
> He just said he was 're-inventing the mobile phone' which is very accurate.


LOL. How wrong can you be?!

Here's Apple's iPhone press release:


> MACWORLD SAN FRANCISCO—January 9, 2007—Apple today introduced iPhone, combining three products—a *revolutionary mobile phone*, a widescreen iPod with touch controls, and a breakthrough Internet communications device with desktop-class email, web browsing, searching and maps—into one small and lightweight handheld device. iPhone introduces an entirely new user interface based on a large multi-touch display and pioneering new software, letting users control iPhone with just their fingers. iPhone also ushers in an era of software power and sophistication never before seen in a mobile device, which completely redefines what users can do on their mobile phones.
> 
> *“iPhone is a revolutionary and magical product that is literally five years ahead of any other mobile phone,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO*. “We are all born with the ultimate pointing device—our fingers—and iPhone uses them to create the *most revolutionary user interface* since the mouse.”
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 12, 2009)

I'm sure Sunray will be devastated his memory isn't quite what he thought it...


----------



## Crispy (May 12, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Steve jobs didn't use it in the original iPhone presentation.



Well, if we keep to the high-grade nitpicking standard for these sort of threads, I do believe he's correct. Steve Job's original presentation was not the same as the text of the press release.


----------



## editor (May 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Well, if we keep to the high-grade nitpicking standard for these sort of threads, I do believe he's correct. Steve Job's original presentation was not the same as the text of the press release.


You can spin it anyway you like fella, but Steve Jobs most definitely called the iPhone "revolutionary" which, I believe, was the claim being disputed. The word's plastered all over the press release, with his name on it.


----------



## g force (May 12, 2009)

"literally five years ahead".....oh dear. Can't just be five years, oh no, it has to be "literally".


----------



## Crispy (May 12, 2009)

editor said:


> The word's plastered all over the press release, with his name on it.



Ah yes, but he didn't say it _in the presentation itself_. It's important to be as narrow and anally specific as possible about these things, or we might all have to end up agreeing with each other. And where would the tech forum be then eh?


----------



## kropotkin (May 12, 2009)

LOL! Indeed.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Ah yes, but he didn't say it _in the presentation itself_. It's important to be as narrow and anally specific as possible about these things, or we might all have to end up agreeing with each other. And where would the tech forum be then eh?



Quite


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Ah yes, but he didn't say it _in the presentation itself_. It's important to be as narrow and anally specific as possible about these things, or we might all have to end up agreeing with each other. And where would the tech forum be then eh?


----------



## sumimasen (May 12, 2009)

Lookee here, a photo of a box!


----------



## sumimasen (May 12, 2009)

These leaked photos are on the Engadget site


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 12, 2009)

Been reading in places that review copies are now being sent out, and that they were told they'd get one four weeks before launch which means first week of June for US launch.


----------



## jæd (May 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Ah yes, but he didn't say it _in the presentation itself_. It's important to be as narrow and anally specific as possible about these things, or we might all have to end up agreeing with each other. And where would the tech forum be then eh?



Classic...!


----------



## sumimasen (May 12, 2009)

7th June keeps being mooted here and there.


----------



## Crispy (May 12, 2009)

So the day before the new iphone reveal?
That's mighty brave or mighty stupid.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 12, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> 7th June keeps being mooted here and there.



Yep that's the date I keep reading.



Crispy said:


> So the day before the new iphone reveal?
> That's mighty brave or mighty stupid.



Yep, going to be interesting this.


----------



## jæd (May 12, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> These leaked photos are on the Engadget site



They've only gone and printed their manual in Foreign...! EPIC FAIL...!!!


----------



## sumimasen (May 12, 2009)

lol, Microsoft says hold off buying the iPhone or Pre, we may just surprise you this June


----------



## editor (May 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Ah yes, but he didn't say it _in the presentation itself_.


Oh, but he did, Mr Sarkypants. He was positively spinning with the 'revolutions'!


> This is a day I've been looking forward to for two-and-a-half years. Every once in a while, a *revolutionary* product comes along that changes everything. ...Well, today, we're introducing three *revolutionary* products of this class. The first one is a widescreen iPod with touch controls. The second is mobile phone. And the third is a breakthrough Internet communications device. So, three things: a widescreen iPod with touch controls; a *revolutionary* mobile phone; and a breakthrough Internet communications device. An iPod, a phone, and an Internet communicator. An iPod, a phone ... are you getting it? These are not three separate devices, this is one device, and we are calling it iPhone. Today, Apple is going to reinvent the phone, and here it is.
> 
> http://www.iphonebuzz.com/complete-...-conference-and-expo-january-9-2007-23447.php


LOL, PWN, HTH, HAND, Tea No Sugar  etc.

  


sumimasen said:


> lol, Microsoft says hold off buying the iPhone or Pre, we may just surprise you this June


Think I'ol take a raincheck on that one.


----------



## Crispy (May 12, 2009)

editor said:


> Oh, but he did. He was positively spinning with the 'revolutions'!
> LOL, PWN, HTH, HAND, Tea No Sugar  etc.


Oh god, the pain, the pain. I'll never post again. Tell my mother I love her. Into the dark I go.


----------



## editor (May 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Oh god, the pain, the pain. I'll never post again. Tell my mother I love her. Into the dark I go.


----------



## sumimasen (May 12, 2009)

The release date of the release date has, um, been released:  

19th May i.e. next Tuesday

http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/05/11/palm-and-sprint-announcing-pre-availability-may-19th-in-the-wsj/


----------



## g force (May 13, 2009)

Well at least we'll know by then at least...still be a stab in the dark on a UK date though! Arrgghhh so frustrating...


----------



## Structaural (May 13, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> lol, Microsoft says hold off buying the iPhone or Pre, we may just surprise you this June



Vista Mobile!


----------



## editor (May 13, 2009)

From my experience of using an iPhone and G1 (both virtual and hardware keyboards), I can categorically say that unless they've done something catastrophic to it, the Pre's Centro-like keyboard (and its placement) is going to kick the ass of both. As a big time keyboard thumper, that's the USP that's going to be draw me to the Pre.


----------



## g force (May 13, 2009)

Absolutely...alongside network options and price plans.


----------



## editor (May 13, 2009)

g force said:


> Absolutely...alongside network options and price plans.


Well, yes that too 

At least I'm not tied to a contract now, so I can hopefully pick up the Pre for free on a 12 month deal (although I reluctantly accept that's more likely to be 18 months) and then flog off my G1.


----------



## jæd (May 13, 2009)

editor said:


> From my experience of using an iPhone and G1 (both virtual and hardware keyboards), I can categorically say that unless they've done something catastrophic to it, the Pre's Centro-like keyboard (and its placement) is going to kick the ass of both. As a big time keyboard thumper, that's the USP that's going to be draw me to the Pre.



That will depend on your opinion of on-screen or hardware keyboards.   And _from the previews of Firmware 3.0 posted online_ it looks like there will be more use of the horizontal, full width keyboard. From where its used already, IME its much easier to type faster with two fingers..


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 13, 2009)

*expects 15 more pages on the tedious intricacies of keyboard use on smart phones*


----------



## editor (May 13, 2009)

jæd said:


> That will depend on your opinion of on-screen or hardware keyboards.   And _from the previews of Firmware 3.0 posted online_ it looks like there will be more use of the horizontal, full width keyboard. From where its used already, IME its much easier to type faster with two fingers..


Research has found that a decent hardware keyboard is always more accurate than a virtual one, whatever its orientation, and that's echoed in my own experiences. It's also a lot more comfortable with a real keyboard as you get tactile feedback and don't have to keep looking at the keyboard to see what you're typing.

I don't really fancy having to move the phone to landscape mode to write messages either, but each to their own. I'm only stating my opinion.


Kid_Eternity said:


> *expects 15 more pages on the tedious intricacies of keyboard use on smart phones*


*expects more pointless sneery comments from KE


----------



## jæd (May 13, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> *expects 15 more pages on the tedious intricacies of keyboard use on smart phones*



Heh...  Do you have the research to back that up...?


----------



## g force (May 13, 2009)

TBH the best keyboard i've used is on the Blackberry Curve - although 'keyboard' also relies on the ergonomics of the handset itself and how you can hold it and type with one hand etc not simply the key spacing, 'give' and speed it appears on the screen.

Anyhow...I pray the Pre will come out on Orange or Vodafone although with Voda so tied to RIM I wonder if they'd bother? And they're the only two networks I can get coverage in my flat with!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 13, 2009)

g force said:


> I pray the Pre will come out on Orange or Vodafone



It's going to be on O2 IIRC.


----------



## g force (May 13, 2009)

Damn....02 is the thing that stopped me getting an iphone (really cannot be arsed with unlocking shit). Exclusive network deals suck balls.


----------



## editor (May 13, 2009)

It's not definite yet, and there's a chance that the Pre may also be available unlocked (at a suitably wallet draining price).


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## g force (May 13, 2009)

Which then makes it even less of an option sadly. As nice as it looks so long as I have Google maps, email and a working phone i'll stick to my BB on Vodafone. I left 02 due to network issues and shitty customer service and I never intend to return!


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## editor (May 17, 2009)

Looks like Palm's done an amazing job in the UK of hyping up the Pre. This from the Daily Mirror: 





> Results: Palm Pre beats the new iPhone!
> 
> The numbers are in. We asked you which gadget due in Summer you’d be buying first and you voted for the Palm Pre in droves, crushing the new iPhone. Read on for the full results.
> 
> ...



Here's a fairly comprehensive Pre video review It's still looking pretty damn good to me:


----------



## jæd (May 17, 2009)

editor said:


> Looks like Palm's done an amazing job in the UK of hyping up the Pre. This from the Daily Mirror:
> 
> Here's a fairly comprehensive Pre video review It's still looking pretty damn good to me:



What does electricpig.co.uk have to do with the Daily Mirror...? 

And I'm not seeing the raw results or the methodology of this poll.  And if its the results of the poll here it looks like someone has just posted the results of a Internet Web Poll...


----------



## Lazy Llama (May 17, 2009)

The Daily Mirror don't do their own tech journalism, they just syndicate it in from that ElectricPig site.


----------



## editor (May 17, 2009)

jæd said:


> What does electricpig.co.uk have to do with the Daily Mirror...?


Their articles are published on the Daily Mirror site:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/techno...alm-pre-beats-the-new-iphone-115875-21355236/

I'm sure Palm aren't even slightly bothered about the accuracy or methodology of the poll - they'll just be delighted to get such juicy mainstream press ahead of launch.


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## editor (May 18, 2009)

Some Sprint workers have got their paws on the Pre and one is feeling the love: 





> A number of Sprint Employees have tipped us that the Palm Pre Advocate units have arrived in stores - for really real.  These are the one-per-store units assigned to an employee who will be the Pre expert for that location -- the Advocate.  We've already heard from one Sprint Employee's impressions on the keyboard, now we have that and a lot more.
> 
> First off, the phone is as small as we've reported, it "feels like pure sex in the hand."  Ahem.  We have corroboration that the keyboard does in fact feel on the small side: "definitely a cross between a Centro and a Treo Pro keyboard."  The webOS is "amazing" and "responsive."


Apparently, a Twitter search tab is now embedded in the overall search interface which would be a handy touch.


http://www.precentral.net/palm-pre-sprint-advocate-phones-have-arrived-really-real


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## jæd (May 18, 2009)

editor said:


> I'm sure Palm aren't even slightly bothered about the accuracy or methodology of the poll - they'll just be delighted to get such juicy mainstream press ahead of launch.



Certainly good PR. The poll is meaningless without detailing their methodology...



editor said:


> Some Sprint workers have got their paws on the Pre and one is feeling the love: Apparently, a Twitter search tab is now embedded in the overall search interface which would be a handy touch.



Are they going to have regular firmware update to integrate every new bandwagon...?


----------



## editor (May 18, 2009)

jæd said:


> Are they going to have regular firmware update to integrate every new bandwagon...?


Get with it. Twitter is hardly a 'new bandwagon'.


----------



## dweller (May 18, 2009)

editor said:


> Get with it. Twitter is hardly a 'new bandwagon'.



It is for the majority of consumers...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 18, 2009)

Interesting that there's pr of that level in a British tabloid, almost hints the Pre may arrive sooner than later in the UK...


----------



## jæd (May 18, 2009)

dweller said:


> It is for the majority of consumers...



Yes... There's also the issue of what happens for all the less popular and emerging social networking sites out there. Will there be some kind of plugin framework to extend Synergy...?


----------



## Lazy Llama (May 18, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Interesting that there's pr of that level in a British tabloid, almost hints the Pre may arrive sooner than later in the UK...


It's only on their website, not in the paper AFAIK; they simply take a feed of everything from that ElectricPig site - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology/ I doubt Palm or their PR had anything to do with the mention.

There are lots of stories fed through, mostly sourced elsewhere. The Pre one mentioned is already at the bottom of the third page of tech news just under the "Android shipments to increase 900% in 2009" story, so it's not exactly a huge profile.


----------



## jayeola (May 18, 2009)

@jaed Twitter is good for __some__ things, like getting the attention of managers of some companies.


----------



## jæd (May 18, 2009)

jayeola said:


> @jaed Twitter is good for __some__ things, like getting the attention of managers of some companies.



I don't doubt its useful. I'm just wondering how they will keep Synergy working when new social networking sites pop-up all the time...


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## Kid_Eternity (May 18, 2009)

Add a search field along with wikipedia, google etc? I don't see that they have to jump on every single SN site that comes along to the degree they do with Facebook...


----------



## editor (May 18, 2009)

jæd said:


> I don't doubt its useful. I'm just wondering how they will keep Synergy working when new social networking sites pop-up all the time...


 Successful ones don't "pop up all the time." 

Twitter has been going since 2006 and it's now the third most used social network (Facebook being the largest, followed by MySpace). Being able to directly search Twitter from inside the Palm webOS with an integrated interface will be a lot more convenient than having to fire open a third party app.

You may not use it much, but for an awful lot of people, Twitter is one of the main things they do while connected.





Lazy Llama said:


> There are lots of stories fed through, mostly sourced elsewhere. The Pre one mentioned is already at the bottom of the third page of tech news just under the "Android shipments to increase 900% in 2009" story, so it's not exactly a huge profile.


Pretty damn good for Palm's publicity dept, though.

That's just the sort of quote that does wonders for a PR campaign.


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## Lazy Llama (May 18, 2009)

editor said:


> That's just the sort of quote that does wonders for a PR campaign.


Yeah, on past evidence I  expect their adverts to go something along the lines of:




			
				Palm PR said:
			
		

> Most anticipated phone of summer 2009*, coming to you in umm... well we're not sure, but probably not summer 2009, or maybe we can get an Indian Summer that'll stretch out a bit to... well, we can't really say, but it'll be soon**
> (* Compared to 2 other currently non-existent phones)
> (** May not be soon)


----------



## jæd (May 18, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Add a search field along with wikipedia, google etc? I don't see that they have to jump on every single SN site that comes along to the degree they do with Facebook...



If there was some kind of open framework that allowed people to write plugins to import contacts from other social networking sites then you wouldn't have to jump on each one. Just let the community do it for you.

And don't forget in some countries like Brazil (with Orkut), other SN's are very popular...!


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## jæd (May 18, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Yeah, on past evidence I  expect their adverts to go something along the lines of:



The survey quoted may be great for PR, but if it was ever used in adverts it would be shot down by the ASA immedietely...


----------



## editor (May 18, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Yeah, on past evidence I  expect their adverts to go something along the lines of:


Or, quite simply: 

_"Most anticipated phone of summer 2009" _- Daily Mirror.


----------



## Lazy Llama (May 18, 2009)

editor said:


> Or, quite simply:
> 
> _"Most anticipated phone of summer 2009" _- Daily Mirror.


Yeah, you're right. That is funnier.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2009)

Lazy Llama;9154645]Yeah said:


> Yeah, on past evidence I  expect their adverts to go something along the lines of:


PS You know, the only mobile phone manufacturer I can think of who's been slapped down by the ASA recently for dodgy adverts was Apple.

What's the 'past evidence' with Palm you're referring to?


----------



## Lazy Llama (May 18, 2009)

editor said:


> Breathe in.... and breathe out... just let that Palm thing go.... if it's not for you, iJog on....


Really, get over your _Pre_-conceptions . I already have 3 Palm devices and if I want a Pre I'll get one, thanks. And maybe you should take your own advice and stop the "oooh, nasty Apple have banned another app" posts on the iPhone thread. If it's not for you, Palm yourself off. 

Ah, but your posts are all about the company aren't they? Whereas mine, oh... that was about the company too. Still, your boards... you make the rules. I'll unsubscribe from this thread and look for unbiased Palm news/discussion somewhere where it's allowed.


editor said:


> PS You know, the only mobile phone manufacturer I can think of who's been slapped down by the ASA recently for dodgy adverts was Apple.
> 
> What's the 'past evidence' with Palm you're referring to?


The point went that way ---->

Tell me where *I* said their advert would be slapped down by the ASA?

I was _joking_ about the evidence of their inability/strategy of not releasing a release date (until tomorrow, in the US, maybe).


----------



## jæd (May 18, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> Really, get over your _Pre_-conceptions . I already have 3 Palm devices and if I want a Pre I'll get one, thanks. And maybe you should take your own advice and stop the "oooh, nasty Apple have banned another app" posts on the iPhone thread. If it's not for you, Palm yourself off.
> 
> Ah, but your posts are all about the company aren't they? Whereas mine, oh... that was about the company too. Still, your boards... you make the rules. I'll unsubscribe from this thread and look for unbiased Palm news/discussion somewhere where it's allowed.
> 
> ...



The ASA advert would be me.

But if they produced something like:

"Most anticipated phone of summer 2009" - Daily Mirror*. 
Out TBC | £TBC | Palm

* Sample size not disclosed. Or the source. Or who we asked.

They would be slapped silly by the ASA...


----------



## editor (May 18, 2009)

jæd said:


> The ASA advert would be me.
> 
> But if they produced something like:
> 
> ...


So you keep saying but I'm not sure why you think that. They would be accurately quoting the Daily Mirror and making no claims for themselves. Why should that be 'slapped down'? 





Lazy Llama said:


> Really, get over your _Pre_-conceptions . I already have 3 Palm devices and if I want a Pre I'll get one, thanks. And maybe you should take your own advice and stop the "oooh, nasty Apple have banned another app" posts on the iPhone thread. If it's not for you, Palm yourself off.


Blimey. Lighten up fella. It's only banter!

On a general note, I'd day the way that Apple are banning apps and controlling the distribution is news because they're a hugely influential and successful company whose actions may have ramifications for all phone users. 

Where they lead others are likely to follow, and I'm not keen on ending up with the phone manufacturers controlling all app development and distribution and banning programs on their own dodgy moralistic judgements, like another fucking Walmart.

Edit: but we've had all this out on the other thread about a zillion times so shall we keep this one to Palm stuff?


----------



## jæd (May 18, 2009)

editor said:


> So you keep saying but I'm not sure why you think that. They would be accurately quoting the Daily Mirror and making no claims for themselves.



Because they would be quoting the survey conducted by ElectricPig and syndicated in the Daily Mirror rather than the Daily Mirror's own opinion. As mentioned the survey has very little data accompanying it...

(And the phrase "Most anticipated phone of summer" doesn't actually appear on http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/techno...alm-pre-beats-the-new-iphone-115875-21355236/ away...)


----------



## editor (May 19, 2009)

jæd said:


> Because they would be quoting the survey conducted by ElectricPig and syndicated in the Daily Mirror rather than the Daily Mirror's own opinion. As mentioned the survey has very little data accompanying it...


No idea why you're so fascinated by this, but if the phrase appeared on the Daily Mirror's site under their news banner, then Palm would be at complete liberty to cite them as the source, because it appears as a Daily Mirror article. Btw, you are aware that many newspaper surveys aren't actually conducted by the newspaper staff themselves, aren't you?

Anyhow, back on topic, the New York Times is reporting thst the Pre will be released in the first week of June.


> Guys, guess what? The Palm Pre is really, seriously, totally coming out, like, super soon. How soon? Well the New York Times, one of the most respected newspapers of our age, claims The Smartphone That Saved Palm (despite their denials) is due in the first week of June, which means the countdown to destruction just got a little shorter. Unless the Times is making stuff up. And let's be honest -- at this point, maybe they are. We can say this, however, the Pre is due, and it's due soon, and if we don't see it before WWDC, we'll be pretty surprised. Our call? We've got a sneaking suspicion that all this speculation will be over before you know it. Like, tomorrow.
> 
> Guys, guess what? The Palm Pre is really, seriously, totally coming out, like, super soon. How soon? Well the New York Times, one of the most respected newspapers of our age, claims The Smartphone That Saved Palm (despite their denials) is due in the first week of June, which means the countdown to destruction just got a little shorter. Unless the Times is making stuff up. And let's be honest -- at this point, maybe they are. We can say this, however, the Pre is due, and it's due soon, and if we don't see it before WWDC, we'll be pretty surprised. Our call? We've got a sneaking suspicion that all this speculation will be over before you know it. Like, tomorrow.


----------



## editor (May 19, 2009)

Official launch date confirmed: June 6th:


> The day you've been waiting for is here. Sprint just announced that the Pre will cost $199.99 after $100 mail-rebate and 2-year contract and will launch on June 6th as rumored this morning. The phone will go on sale nationwide at Sprint stores, Best Buy, Radio Shack, and select Wal-Mart stores. The Pre will be available under Sprint's Everything Data or Business Essentials with Messaging and Data plans. Accessories include the optional $69.99 Touchstone charging dock kit that includes the $49.99 dock and $19.99 Pre back cover.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/19/palm-launching-pre-on-june-6th-official/



I'd run a mile from a 2yr deal, but they seem to do things different in the States. I expect pricing for other plans should be released later. No news on a UK release.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 19, 2009)

300 dollars (with the ability to gain 100 back) and two year contract? Two years is a very long time...but at least the date's out now! Roll on news of the UK/Europe launch...


----------



## editor (May 19, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> 300 dollars (with the ability to gain 100 back) and two year contract? Two years is a very long time...but at least the date's out now! Roll on news of the UK/Europe launch...


America's quite different to the UK - phones regularly come with cashback offers (maybe this is to stop people buying up loads of them?) and their contracts are generally hideously long - and expensive - compared to the UK.

My mates in the States can't believe how often we change phones over here, or how many phones we can get for free!

I'm really looking forward to reading some detailed reviews and seeing if the phone lives up to the hype.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 19, 2009)

I was wondering why the cashback thing, stopping people from buying multiples and selling on makes sense. Yup, looking forward to the proper reviews also. And a UK launch date!


----------



## Sunray (May 19, 2009)

Thats an unusual launch date, its the Saturday before the Apple keynote. 

I'm not so sure that is the best time but will ensure that it gets compared to the new iPhone,  v3 of the iPhone and v3 iPhone applications.  I can imagine that Apple have at least one v3 Application they want to share, Sat Nav perhaps.


----------



## editor (May 19, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Thats an unusual launch date, its the Saturday before the Apple keynote.
> 
> I'm not so sure that is the best time but will ensure that it gets compared to the new iPhone,  v3 of the iPhone and v3 iPhone applications.  I can imagine that Apple have at least one v3 Application they want to share, Sat Nav perhaps.


Whatever kind of phone the Pre turns out to be, you can't knock the company's ability to drum up precious publicity. 

They've created a real buzz about this phone, and I'm guessing they'll have a few more surprises up their sleeve when the phone launches.

Either way, it's good to see at least one company with the imagination to try and take on the mighty iPhone and introduce some real innovation of their own.


----------



## Sunray (May 19, 2009)

There isn't enough in the package to make me want to switch, Synergy, multi-tasking and perhaps less control freak attitude although how much is yet to be seen.  This can be as much carrier driven as it is Palm or Apple, so might be hard to judge. Keyboard is of little interest to me. 

8Gb really isn't enough for me, I'll be surprised if Palm don't rectify this fairly soon.  

For people that don't own a next gen smart phone it finally gives a proper choice.

Looking at the specs, I note that its specifically ruling out proper SatNav in their software as its not got the maps on board. Like the iPhone, relying on a data connection.  In the US that can be a problem because their GSM coverage isn't complete.  So when you are most likely to need it, its not going to work.  Looks like proper directional sat nav when its working, from the images on Palms site.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 19, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Thats an unusual launch date, its the Saturday before the Apple keynote.
> 
> I'm not so sure that is the best time but will ensure that it gets compared to the new iPhone,  v3 of the iPhone and v3 iPhone applications.  I can imagine that Apple have at least one v3 Application they want to share, Sat Nav perhaps.



In a sense it's a reasonable date. They can't do it post Apple keynote as they'll get buried by a superior PR machine. They have to get it out before the end of June to keep to their word. This gives them a pre-emptive strike, although how powerful remains to be seen...


----------



## editor (May 19, 2009)

Sunray said:


> There isn't enough in the package to make me want to switch, Synergy, multi-tasking and perhaps less control freak attitude although how much is yet to be seen.  This can be as much carrier driven as it is Palm or Apple, so might be hard to judge. Keyboard is of little interest to me.
> 
> 8Gb really isn't enough for me, I'll be surprised if Palm don't rectify this fairly soon.
> 
> For people that don't own a next gen smart phone it finally gives a proper choice.


There's no smartphone that's going to satisfy anyone, but the Pre certainly offers a different focus than the iPhone. 

I can't bear phones without proper keyboards and I hate Apple's power-mad, censoring control-freak approach so Android or Palm handsets appeal more to me. I don't need 45,000 songs on my phone, neither do I want to play zillions of games.

However, based on what I've seen, Palm's synergy concept, hardware keyboard, old app support and superb multitasking interface look right up my boulevard, so it's going right on my shortlist. I dare say there's quite a few folks who also find it equally appealing and will prefer it to the iPhone.


----------



## Crispy (May 19, 2009)

should have been a teensy bit more pre-emptive than this though


----------



## editor (May 20, 2009)

Crispy said:


> should have been a teensy bit more pre-emptive than this though


Not entirely sure what you mean there.

Anyway, the off-contract price for the Pre has been set at $549, which isn't too bad for a 'at launch' price.

Discussion here:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/19/palm-pre-to-run-549-off-contract/

vs iPhone pricing feature:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10244910-1.html


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 20, 2009)

$549 could mean £399 unlocked...with a 20 quid sim only deal that's a good deal...


----------



## Sunray (May 20, 2009)

editor said:


> There's no smartphone that's going to satisfy anyone, but the Pre certainly offers a different focus than the iPhone.
> 
> I can't bear phones without proper keyboards and I hate Apple's power-mad, censoring control-freak approach so Android or Palm handsets appeal more to me. I don't need 45,000 songs on my phone, neither do I want to play zillions of games.
> 
> However, based on what I've seen, Palm's synergy concept, hardware keyboard, old app support and superb multitasking interface look right up my boulevard, so it's going right on my shortlist. I dare say there's quite a few folks who also find it equally appealing and will prefer it to the iPhone.



Off contract, 549 makes it way cheaper than the iPhone.  Fuck if the iPhone was that price, I'd have bought it out of contract.  350 quid, say 399 with vat. Bargain. Just you'll not be able to get one till the GSM version arrives, its EVDO rev A. Sprint only.

You don't know what sort of control Palm are going to exercise on their app store.  Given that most applications get onto the app store these days, its a bit premature to say Palm will be better. I think everyone overblows Apples control, its there yes, but with 25000+ application, some really rather good ones, the facts aren't backing that argument up too well.

Games and apps take up nothing memory wise, its just media that the Gbs are used.  Ive got more than 8Gb of media on my phone, its primary use is an iPod.  Thats why I got it, I can't see the point of going to a phone who's ethos was making these features accessable and then not using them?  

There is no primary feature on my iPhone I don't really use apart from the camera, and thats only because its so appallingly shit.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 20, 2009)

editor said:


> America's quite different to the UK - phones regularly come with cashback offers (maybe this is to stop people buying up loads of them?) and their contracts are generally hideously long - and expensive - compared to the UK.



What worries me is how we follow the states. It wasn't that long ago that I was able to get the latest smartphone on a 12 month contract with some heavy bargaining. I know the UK market is very different to the US, but now you need to sign up to an 18 month to get the same kind of leverage and the best deals are on 24 month contacts. Sadly I can see us going that way.


----------



## editor (May 20, 2009)

Sunray said:


> You don't know what sort of control Palm are going to exercise on their app store.  Given that most applications get onto the app store these days, its a bit premature to say Palm will be better. I think everyone overblows Apples control, its there yes, but with 25000+ application, some really rather good ones, the facts aren't backing that argument up too well..


Apple maintains complete and total control over what can and can not be installed on their handsets, and actively bars apps on moral grounds. 

Palm can not because you can download whatever apps you like from anywhere you like*.


> Pre App Store at launch. Better: no lock down, a la iPhone. You will be able to install third-party apps without jailbreaking, through USB or over the air.
> http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2009/02/11/palm-ceo-palmos-is-d.html





> 13.) Will there be restrictions on apps?
> Palm will certify all developers and approve all apps, but only to make sure they work properly. They won't kill apps for content-related reasons like Apple does. Think Android, not iPhone.
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2338583,00.asp


(*although I imagine the networks might try to block certain apps like VoIP);


----------



## Sunray (May 20, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> What worries me is how we follow the states. It wasn't that long ago that I was able to get the latest smartphone on a 12 month contract with some heavy bargaining. I know the UK market is very different to the US, but now you need to sign up to an 18 month to get the same kind of leverage and the best deals are on 24 month contacts. Sadly I can see us going that way.



People are lemmings.  Its simple. Buy out of contract and tell the operators to go fuck their 18 month contract.   If that option was available to me with the iPhone I would have done. 

If nobody wants 18 month contracts, operators will stop offering them.  Its to lower their churn rates and they did it by making the deals sweeter and then hauling in the 12 month ones and then lessing the deals for 18 months having got people use to 18 months.

Fortunately nobody bought the 1st iPhone so they were forced to make the 35 quid deal much better value.  I like the wifi extra feature.


----------



## Crispy (May 20, 2009)

editor said:


> Not entirely sure what you mean there.



KE said that launching before the iphone announcement was a pre-emptive strike. a few days doesn't seem pre-emptive enough to me.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 20, 2009)

Sunray said:


> People are lemmings.  Its simple. Buy out of contract and tell the operators to go fuck their 18 month contract.   If that option was available to me with the iPhone I would have done.



If I'd had the cash I would have bought my phone outright, but its so much cheaper to buy them through contract. It's about another £10 a month over sim only deal on the same tariff, so works out at £180 vs £550.


----------



## editor (May 20, 2009)

Crispy said:


> KE said that launching before the iphone announcement was a pre-emptive strike. a few days doesn't seem pre-emptive enough to me.


The new iPhone won't be released until July 17th, according to the latest rumours.

http://www.techdigest.tv/2009/05/rumour_new_ipho.html


----------



## jayeola (May 20, 2009)

Just got an email from Palm's marketing arm that the Pre is coming out in June..



> The new Palm® Pre™ phone will be here June 6, starting at $199.99 on the Sprint network (after rebate and service agreement).1


----------



## g force (May 20, 2009)

Finally light at the end of the tunnel....now to see which UK networks it will come on!


----------



## sumimasen (May 20, 2009)

g force said:


> Finally light at the end of the tunnel....now to see which UK networks it will come on!



We know who - o2.

Now the question of when..


----------



## editor (May 20, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> We know who - o2.


That's not confirmed. Word is that both Vodafone and O2 are battling over the rights of what might be a big selling handset.


----------



## sumimasen (May 20, 2009)

I thought there was a gentleman's agreement with o2 in place.  But fair enough to Palm for re-considering.  The hype of Pre is unprecedented, probably the best they will have for one of their products for many many years.


----------



## editor (May 20, 2009)

oks like Palm may be fucking up the launch a bit with a shortage of phones, but the pricing is looking keen:


> *Palm Pre Buzz: Monthly Costs Will Be Lower Than the iPhone*
> 
> Palm has finally confirmed the rumors that it will roll out the much-hyped Pre on June 6, and is partnering up with Sprint as the Pre’s wireless carrier. But just like iPhone adopters had to swallow a two-year contract with AT&T, Pre fans are wondering just how much it will cost them above to sign a two-year deal with Sprint.
> 
> ...


American mobile rates are bonkers!


----------



## Sunray (May 20, 2009)

$150 is 96 quid.  

Isn't that what badgers has,  gets you unlimited everything, unlimited roaming and data in the EU and a new phone every 6 months if you want it?


----------



## editor (May 20, 2009)

It's now available in one big US store for $199 without any faffing about with a rebate. The phone's just received FCC approval ahead of its launch on June 6th, but shortage rumours abound - so we might get another bout of arses doing that 'camping outisde the phone store' nonsense. 

And if the Americans techies get_ really_ excited, there might be some fresh 'high fivin'' footage to take the piss out of, although I can't imagine the store staff doing circuits of the block a-whoopin' and a-hollerin'.


----------



## Crispy (May 21, 2009)

Do we know which specific factories the pre is being made in? might get some clues as to why there's apparent supply problems.


----------



## editor (May 21, 2009)

Bloke from Sprint was saying that some shortages for the first 4-8 weeks are the norm when it's a big new product launch, while others reckon it's a bit of an Apple-like ruse to boost demand.

Chi Mei Communications are reckoned to be the Pre manufacturer but it seems no one knows for sure.
http://www.precentral.net/palm-pre-manufactured-cmcsfoxconn


----------



## editor (May 21, 2009)

The ruddy thing's already out there for some lucky users, with it already showing up in mobile ad impressions:
http://www.millennialmedia.com/press/052009.html


----------



## editor (May 22, 2009)

Latest rumour is that there's going to be serious stock shortages at launch, with one report saying that some stores are going to have as little as four models for sale, which is fucking stupid.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 22, 2009)

Oh dear...well let's hope production ramps and they get it together...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 22, 2009)

Looks like the Pre is getting into the hands of people now: http://www.precentral.net/palm-profile-pic-and-hands-video


----------



## editor (May 23, 2009)

The screens look lush:












The phone automatically backs up all data onine and SlingPlayer is coming to the Palm too.
http://palmgoon.com/


----------



## editor (May 23, 2009)

Browser's looking good too:


----------



## Piers Gibbon (May 23, 2009)

grrrr get a bloody move on Palm

my Centro is doing the freeze instead of answer calls..just a tad irksome for a freelance voiceover doing insta-jobs (or anyone frankly)


----------



## editor (May 23, 2009)

The iPhone Blog has an iPhone v3 vs Palm Pre face off and calls it a draw.
http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2009/05/22/iphone-30-palm-pre/

Seeing as it's an iPhone site, it's a very balanced article:



> Applications
> 
> This one is a slam dunk for Apple and the iPhone, right? Not so fast! Sure, the iPhone has 35,000+ applications in the App Store, brilliant and terrible both. 1 billion downloads is nothing to sneeze at either. After all, Apple re-invented mobile software by putting one little icon on their home screen that gave instant access to tens of thousands of additional icons for every single one of their 15 million+ users (30 million+ if we count iPod touch as well). That’s a juggernaut by any stretch of the imagination. Based on the same, objective Cocoa superset of C, and using the same Xcode developer tools that Mac programmers are already familiar with, it gave the iPhone immediate access to just the type of design-conscious, experience-oriented developers Apple values. This has lead to great social network tools, awesome utilities, and games gorgeous enough to give Nintendo the night sweats. (And no, we’re not mentioning fart apps) Sounds like it would be impossible for anyone to catch up?
> 
> ...





Piers Gibbon said:


> grrrr get a bloody move on Palm


Tell me about it. I want this ruddy phone NOW!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 23, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> grrrr get a bloody move on Palm
> 
> my Centro is doing the freeze instead of answer calls..just a tad irksome for a freelance voiceover doing insta-jobs (or anyone frankly)



Yep this has started happening to me in the last few weeks. It's gone from being a real fucking pain to now interfering with business. Think I might have to buy a cheapo phone to see me through the next few weeks or follow the Editor and bag a 2nd hand G1 until when the Pre is released...


----------



## editor (May 23, 2009)

You won't be disappointed with the G1. It's a great phone but I want the Palm Mojo!


----------



## sumimasen (May 24, 2009)

HSeconded.  I've had the G1 for a week now and it's really exceeded my expectations.  So much so that (and I dare not admit it to myself too much yet) after months of pining worse than a cat on heat for the Pre, I may not be rushing to put it on my shopping list as soon as it's released.....


----------



## Sunray (May 24, 2009)

The iPhone and Pre are all at the leading edge of a wave that will eventually see the demise of the existing candy bar type phones.

I think there is plenty of space for expansion once people realise how much of a step up in both usability and functionality these phones are from the current generation of phones used my the masses.


----------



## editor (May 24, 2009)

Sunray said:


> The iPhone and Pre are all at the leading edge of a wave that will eventually see the demise of the existing candy bar type phones.


You think so? There's an awful lot of people who don't need phones to do much more than make calls and send texts and although smartphones are becoming hugely popular, the candy bar form factor has a lot going for it.

My Treo 650 was by miles the most usable handset I've ever tried - and that includes the Centro, G1 and iPhone. The Pre looks like it'll be better than most smartphones because the physical keyboard is in the 'right' place.


----------



## editor (May 24, 2009)

A ton of Palm webOS emulator videos have been leaked here. 
The OS looks very, very good. Full multi-tasking when on a call (send/text/receive email, look up maps etc etc) and a nice clear UI. Love the status bar. 

http://mypre.com/palm-pre-interface-video-demos-from-webos-emulator-2009241592


----------



## editor (May 24, 2009)

It's official. The Pre will be on O2:


> O2 is set to follow up its success with the iPhone in the UK by grabbing an exclusive deal to stock the device that gadget fans reckon is the closest thing to a real competitor to the Apple device, the Palm Pre.
> 
> The UK's largest mobile phone operator, with more than 20 million customers, is understood to have seen off fierce competition for the new handset from Vodafone and Orange, and it will be available in the UK in time for the crucial Christmas period.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/may/24/02-iphone-palm-pre



Gizmodo The Definitive Guide and FAQ to the  Pre: http://gizmodo.com/5133554/palm-pre-the-definitive-guide-and-faq

And here's the entire leaked Sprint Business launch doc for the Pre: http://www.engadget.com/photos/pre-launch-manual/2032689/


----------



## Sunray (May 24, 2009)

editor said:


> You think so? There's an awful lot of people who don't need phones to do much more than make calls and send texts and although smartphones are becoming hugely popular, the candy bar form factor has a lot going for it.
> 
> My Treo 650 was by miles the most usable handset I've ever tried - and that includes the Centro, G1 and iPhone. The Pre looks like it'll be better than most smartphones because the physical keyboard is in the 'right' place.



What I'm basing this on is that it will be increasingly hard to differentiate these products, if that's not already the case. I'm talking about the low to middling end of the market.

CPU power, batteries, screens technology etc etc are all marching on apace.  

Somewhen in the future the cost of the hardware for a smart phone with all the functionality of the current iPhone and Pre will be trivial.  So technology will essentially force the hand.  Clearly they can still do the standard phone but that will be so cheap it'll be hard to make and real money unless you sell 100 million.  

The profit will be in higher end models, and what goes in high end models filters down.  somewhere in the future all the things that are uncommon in the iPhone and Pre will be standard on lower end phones.

Steve Jobs stated Apple reckon they are 5 years ahead of everyone else.  That means they (everyone else) will catch up in 3 years time?


----------



## editor (May 25, 2009)

This is rumoured to be the low end WebOS handset to follow the Centro. Not entirely convinced it's real, mind.






http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/24/palm-eos-on-track-for-atandt-release-second-half-of-2009/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 25, 2009)

Christmas???


----------



## editor (May 25, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Steve Jobs stated Apple reckon they are 5 years ahead of everyone else.


That's patently bullshit.


----------



## g force (May 25, 2009)

editor said:


> It's official. The Pre will be on O2:
> 
> 
> Gizmodo The Definitive Guide and FAQ to the  Pre: http://gizmodo.com/5133554/palm-pre-the-definitive-guide-and-faq
> ...



Damn..instantly a no go for me


----------



## editor (May 25, 2009)

Apparently, the Pre has a better battery life than the iPhone 3G, with a claimed 5 hours talk time.
I'm a little doubtful myself, but the OS is a lot leaner than the iPhone's so it may be possible. I hope so!
http://www.intomobile.com/2009/05/24/palm-pre-battery-life-revealed-5-hour-talk-time.html

I'm liking the way that Pre handles contacts:











http://palmgoon.com/follow-up-on-contacts/


----------



## editor (May 25, 2009)

The Pre 'gestures' navigation explained:
http://www.engadget.com/photos/leaked-palm-pre-gesture-guide-1/2034098/


----------



## editor (May 26, 2009)

There's a_ really_ interesting article on Forbes about how Palm and Apple have developed a bitter rivalry:





> Palm fights back (against Apple)
> The beleaguered handset maker says its new smartphone, the Pre, is an iPhone killer. Apple isn't laughing.
> 
> (Fortune Magazine) -- Not much rattles Apple. Disciplined and focused, the company lavishes attention on its own elegant products and rarely deigns to discuss rivals. Yet here was Tim Cook, Apple's chief operating officer and designated stand-in for ailing CEO Steve Jobs, erupting during an earnings call in late January at the mere mention of a pip-squeak competitor.
> ...



http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/22/technology/lashinsky_palm.fortune/?postversion=2009052604


----------



## Crispy (May 26, 2009)

editor said:


> The Pre 'gestures' navigation explained:
> http://www.engadget.com/photos/leaked-palm-pre-gesture-guide-1/2034098/



Hmm. Some interesting stuff there, but I'm worried it's not intuitive enough for new users. One of the fundamental rules of UI design is that you should have a good idea what an interaction will do before you make it. AFAICS, there's no obvious onscreen clue that a particular gesture will have a particular effect. A button with a left-pointing arrow is more direct and obvious than a stroke left on a blank area of the device. Stroking upwards from the gesture area has different effects depending on context, but it's not obvious what effect you'll get. Likewise swiping sideways to delete an object from a list - what's wrong with a red X?


----------



## hendo (May 26, 2009)

Apparently Nokia's appstore is a bit of a mess


----------



## editor (May 27, 2009)

O2 are now downplaying the Pre exclusive deal:
http://palmgoon.com/o2-downplays-palm-pre-exclusivity-rumors/


----------



## g force (May 27, 2009)

I hope so...I hate network exclusives but it seems to be the way of things. Orange or particularly Vodafone would interest me.


----------



## sumimasen (May 27, 2009)

The Pre will so blatently be on exclusive, it's a more lucrative no-lose strategy at the point of entry.  I think o2 are being delicate because of their bed partner iPhone.


----------



## Sunray (May 27, 2009)

It makes complete sense to have both hot competing products on the same carrier from o2's business perspective.  Then they dont have to compete with another operator if it gets popular.


----------



## editor (May 27, 2009)

Curiously, the Pre made an appearance at the Google I/O keynote
http://mypre.com/palm-webos-makes-appearance-at-google-io-2009271707/
and there's possible new features being announced:


> According to the host of All Things Digital: D7 conference, Walt Mossberg and Kara Swisher, Palm will be revealing un-speculated newness at the is weeks conference.
> 
> Walt: “And they [Palm] are not only are going to come and talk in more detail about the Palm Pre than you have seen before, but they’re actually going to introduce some things that haven’t even been speculated, uhh, that the Palm Pre’s going to be about to do that haven’t even been speculated on the blogs, and they’re going to show some cool features.”
> http://palmgoon.com/palm-to-reveal-more-secrets-at-d7-mcnamee-to-apple-bash/


Edit: full Palm Pre user guide now online:
http://www.scribd.com/SprintGurus


----------



## editor (May 28, 2009)

First Pre camera pic has been posted and it's not bad at all considering it's a cameraphone.


> ​ Palm's official Twitter account just tweeted about testing out yfrog, the image / video sharing site -- and as you might expect from a manufacturer, it wants to share pictures snapped with its own equipment. Thanks to some helpful EXIF data parsed out by the site, we know the image you're looking at here was taken using a Pre, apparently smack in the middle of enjoying a few 5-cent horsey rides. As far as we can tell this is the first shot we've seen posted from the Pre's camera, and we're cautiously optimistic about what the 3 megapixel sensor has managed to do here. Sure, blowing the image up to full size reveals some nasty artifacting and muddy details, but when you get right down to it, that's what cameraphone shots are all about, right?


http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/27/palm-pre-camera-used-results-shared-at-long-last/

And...


> Pre Central is getting word from a tipster with a webOS emulator that the Pre is going to support IMAP IDLE. This means that users on GMail will have near instantaneous reception of new emails. That’s right, it’s getting pushed down to the phone from the GMail servers.
> 
> 
> This is great news for Pre users. Currently, the only phone to support GMail push is the G1 (and soon any other Android device). Palm’s close relationship with Google and their heavy incorporation of GMail into Synergy and the Pre’s contacts and calendars is proving to be extremely beneficial for soon-to-be Pre users.
> ...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 28, 2009)

Most cameraphones work ok in good light, it will be interesting to see some shots taken inside.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 28, 2009)

And also whether this is a live or posed shot. Some cameraphones have great shutter speeds others don't.


----------



## editor (May 28, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> And also whether this is a live or posed shot. Some cameraphones have great shutter speeds others don't.


Some more pics here: http://gizmodo.com/5271677/first-photographs-taken-with-a-palm-pre

They're clearly not taken by a photographer trying to show off the camera at its best. It's easily good enough for my needs, although the critical part will be how responsive the thing is. My Centro camera is like a lightning bolt compared to the G1's!
http://gizmodo.com/5271677/first-photographs-taken-with-a-palm-pre#

Edit: this one suggest that it can freeze action (albeit in fairly bright conditions):


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 28, 2009)

BGR has itself a Pre:



> The Pre feels really good in your hand in terms of size and shape, but there’s a real plasticky aura about it. Additionally, things aren’t looking good for that QWERTY either. And hey, you know we take them keyboards seriously! When you try and type on the top row of keys, your finger hits the bottom part of the front piece and on top of that, you often hit multiple keys at the same time while typing. It’s actually really frustrating and doesn’t bode well for such a fantastic social communication/personal/business tool.
> 
> The screen is really responsive and blends right in with the casing — awesomely executed and the capacitive touch is so damn beautiful. We’d rate it just behind the iPhone but in front of the T-Mobile G1 as far as screens go.


----------



## editor (May 28, 2009)

Seeing as the keyboard on the Pre is bigger than the one on the Centro (which I can hurtle messages out of), I'm taking their comments with a large pinch of salt.


----------



## Sunray (May 28, 2009)

The k800i and beyond were the 1st camera phone that was 1/2 decent.  

That was nothing to any proper camera I've ever used.


----------



## editor (May 28, 2009)

Palm are certainly giving it some!





> The Palm Pre will synchronize perfectly with Apple’s iTunes, copying across audio and video files as long as they aren’t copy-protected.  The news, which comes courtesy of Fortune, was first tipped back in January when Palm VP of design Peter Skillman demonstrated the Pre on video.
> 
> However, at the time there was no follow-up, and the knowledge that the Pre will connect to a computer as a mass storage device indicated that third-party apps would be needed in order to sync with iTunes.  According to Fortune, however, the required code for direct synchronization is baked into the Pre’s own firmware.
> 
> ...



Nice: 





> There is however, plenty of good news: the Pre will, in fact have IMAP IDLE (AKA Push) Gmail capabilities, meaning that you'll get your spam nearly the moment it hits Gmail's servers. Finally, the previously spied Reminder field in the Pre's Contacts has been found out, and it's a really awesome feature allowing you to make a note and attach it to a particular contact, so that the next time you are in contact with that person, the reminder will pop up and... remind you.
> [Engadget]


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 28, 2009)

editor said:


> Seeing as the keyboard on the Pre is bigger than the one on the Centro (which I can hurtle messages out of), I'm taking their comments with a large pinch of salt.



Yeah I was thinking I'll wait to see what the context was (as in what keyboards they like)...be interesting to see the first proper review from them though.


----------



## Structaural (May 28, 2009)

I like that reminder feature.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 28, 2009)

Yeah that's pretty fucking sweet!


----------



## g force (May 28, 2009)

editor said:


> Seeing as the keyboard on the Pre is bigger than the one on the Centro (which I can hurtle messages out of), I'm taking their comments with a large pinch of salt.



True but the comment about the top keys and that ridge above it looks like it could be a legit concern...the typing in general I think just takes getting use to a new keyboard more than a desing fault.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (May 28, 2009)

wow that Reminder feature is very GTD (Getting Things Done)


----------



## editor (May 28, 2009)

g force said:


> True but the comment about the top keys and that ridge above it looks like it could be a legit concern...the typing in general I think just takes getting use to a new keyboard more than a desing fault.


Here's a different opinion:





> Pre hands-on
> Once you slide open the keyboard, which itself is pretty neat, it remains intuitively easy to operate. You may need to learn a couple of gestures for shutting apps, going back, etc., but in five minutes, you're in business. If you're used to typing on a Palm Treo or BlackBerry, the Pre will be very comfortable. For those who have become frustrated typing on the iPhone's screen, it will be a welcome improvement.
> http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-source/hands-palm-pre-697



I guess the keyboard won't be for everyone - a lot of people weren't keen on the Centro keyboard at first. It looked tiny to me after having a Treo but I got used to it pretty quick and love it now.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 28, 2009)

BGR's first impression have been picked up here.



> According to the site, the top row of keys is difficult to reach without hitting the main part of the phone.  Also reported was hitting two keys instead of the intended one.  It should be noted that it looks like BGR only had the unit for a short time, so with practice the experience may change.
> 
> It should be noted my all-to-limited five minutes on the device in Janurary didn’t reveal this flaw, so one review does not a trend make.
> Unfortunately, if you’ve used enough slider phones, you know this problem well.  I’ve run into this issue on other slider phones, as it’s top row of keys were problematic.  There certainly isn’t a lot of room for all those keys, but it does look like more room than say on the wildly popular Palm Centro.  Time will tell.
> ...


----------



## editor (May 28, 2009)

This is very big news for Palm:





> Think you'll have to wait until June 6th for all the Pre surprises to emerge? Think again. A breaking Reuters report has just dropped one of the biggest cellular bombshells of the year: Verizon Wireless, America's largest mobile operator, will soon be carrying Palm's Pre.


And you've got it to the company - they seem to be doing things right and putting in ample care and attention and churning up Apple-like amounts of publicity. First they slam in iTunes syncing (comments galore here) and even their choice of ring tones makes a news story!





> Composer, professor, publisher, and Chair of the UCLA Department of Music, Roger Bourland was commissioned by Palm to provide eight ringtones for its new handheld device, the Pre.
> 
> Bourland praised Matias Duarte for having the vision to commission “micro-compositions; not just phone emulations, or paid-for chunks of pre-existing songs.” Each ringtone is roughly 24 seconds long before it kicks into the message service.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 28, 2009)

Yep they're doing well in a lot of ways, the number of units they'll have ready for launch leaves something to be desired though...


----------



## jæd (May 29, 2009)

Interesting analyis of how the iTunes sync works : http://nanocr.eu/2009/05/28/syncing-music-and-video-to-the-palm-pre/ . Can't see this working long-term... (Anyhow I thought we were supposed to hate iTunes...?  )


----------



## editor (May 29, 2009)

jæd said:


> Interesting analyis of how the iTunes sync works : http://nanocr.eu/2009/05/28/syncing-music-and-video-to-the-palm-pre/ . Can't see this working long-term... (Anyhow I thought we were supposed to hate iTunes...?  )


The point being is that it's another carrot to tempt over early iPhone users reaching the end of their contracts and also to lure iPod users who are looking for a more interesting/cheaper/keyboard-toting handset.

It's a very smart move.


----------



## jæd (May 29, 2009)

editor said:


> The point being is that it's another carrot to tempt over early iPhone users reaching the end of their contracts and also to lure iPod users who are looking for a more interesting/cheaper/keyboard-toting handset.



Would have to be very early adopters to see 8gb as anything other than a down-grade. Palm need either a 16Gb unit or a SDHC reader asap... That would be


----------



## editor (May 29, 2009)

jæd said:


> Would have to be very early adopters to see 8gb as anything other than a down-grade. Palm need either a 16Gb unit or a SDHC reader asap... That would be


I'm sure the next version will have that, but for a lot of users, 8GB will be absolutely ample (that's up to 2,000 songs and even Apple says that most users have less than 1,000 songs.), and they're far more likely to be persuaded by the functionality and keen pricing. 

Remember: the Pre is not a high end device. It's a third of the price of the N97*.

(*according to web reports)


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (May 29, 2009)

jæd said:


> Would have to be very early adopters to see 8gb as anything other than a down-grade. Palm need either a 16Gb unit or a SDHC reader asap... That would be



The SDHC would make far more sense, an 8gb card is about a tenner and 16gb cards will fall to that soon enough.


----------



## editor (May 29, 2009)

First proper hands on review - it's a winner!


> Conclusion:
> Everyone’s expectation are set enormously high for this device and it really feels like the original iPhone launch again. Well, maybe not quite as insane but still. Palm has done a masterful job of crafting and molding the hype factor, but there seems to be an underlying issue. In being so secretive, they’ve let people’s imaginations run wild and expectations couldn’t possibly be higher.
> 
> The OS is great. There’s no ifs ands or buts; it’s really refreshing to see something that’s brand new with a UI unlike anything else out there. The only problem with this is, Palm’s never been a hardware company that anyone’s really cared about.
> ...


(It's worth noting that they have a pre-production or not-quite-finished model, by all accounts, and it's a bit of a rushed review)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 29, 2009)

> The only problem with this is, Palm’s never been a hardware company that anyone’s really cared about. They have been the furthest thing from innovative since circa-2003 — their hardware has always been second rate at best and it doesn’t seem to be changing now.



Wow that's some endorsement! 

But seriously, looks like we'll have to wait to someone gets a real unit in their hands rather than the glitchy app barren one BGR got...


----------



## editor (May 29, 2009)

I can live with a less than super-shiny case if the OS does the job. The same was said about the G2 phone - because it's so light, it feels a bit tacky because we always associate quality with heft.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 1, 2009)

Another . I'm assuming this isn't a review unit...still looks very nice although the apps opening up look a little slower than those units Palm have been showcasing in recent months.


----------



## Sunray (Jun 1, 2009)

The engadget podcast is nearly 100% pure pre this week.


----------



## jæd (Jun 4, 2009)

Another review thats highlighted the keyboard as a problem:



> The good: The Palm Pre's multitasking capabilities and notifications system are unparalleled. The smartphone features a vibrant display with multitouch functionality as well as a solid Web browser and good multimedia integration. The Pre offered good call quality and wireless options include 3G, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, and GPS.
> 
> The bad: The Pre's keyboard is cramped. Battery life drains quickly and the smartphone can be sluggish at times. Lacks expansion slot, video-recording capabilities, onscreen keyboard, and Flash support. The Pre App Catalog is still in beta with a limited number of titles.


http://reviews.cnet.com/smartphones/palm-pre/4505-6452_7-33490473.html?tag=mncol;txt

I'm surprised at the lack of on-screen keyboard. How do you use it when the physical one is put away...?

(And I love that this phone is getting user-ratings already..)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 4, 2009)

I've read there's problems with slowness of the of phone, don't like the sound of that tbh, also battery drain aint a surprise as it uses the same shitty battery the Centro uses...


----------



## g force (Jun 4, 2009)

The idea of flipping from landscape view to portrait to enter a web address is a fail point for sure but that review was generally positive and seemed balance/fair.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 4, 2009)

Advert for the Pre: http://www.facebook.com/palm?v=app_80586168109&viewas=1487143300


----------



## g force (Jun 4, 2009)

Crap...but I find most phone ads annoying


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 4, 2009)

It was a bit high concept wasn't it? All mood and hippy stuff and very little shots of the phone and why it's cool (the iPhone ones by contrast are simple but show you exactly how cool the device is)...


----------



## g force (Jun 4, 2009)

Well there's that and it employs so many visual cliches that I lost count. The hated the iPhone ads at first (and their clear BS around app times) but they're not that bad on repeated view as it shows Apple's USP - the ease of UI use.

I think this could be the teaser ad though followed by more ads that actually attempt to articualte a USP...becuase if they attempt to go down the "lifestyle accessory" route it's doomed.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm assuming this is a gentle easing into the new Palm branding too...and likewise not sure they can pull off the lifestyle thing either. That said if they can show the speed and usefulness of the OS they shouldn't do too badly with the ads...


----------



## Sunray (Jun 4, 2009)

I await the reviews and the flaws and bugs.

The iPhone was and still has plenty of flaws in terms of missing features, but when it did what it did, the 1st gen iPhone was rock solid.  Apples QA was well on the ball with that.  

I wonder if Palm can do the same.


----------



## g force (Jun 4, 2009)

I dunno the 'missing' features cnet mentions....is voice dialling a real biggie? I used it once I think and that was just to see the comedy option it came up with, rather than someone i wanted to speak to.


----------



## Sunray (Jun 4, 2009)

Voice dial is for proper hands free operation. 

Can't be certified hands free in this country.  Its illegal to press buttons on devices that are not part of the car.


----------



## jæd (Jun 4, 2009)

The reviews are certainly coming thick and fast now. Respected Industry Pundit Walt Mossburg has posted his. Key problem appears to be the Palm App Store: 



> In fact, during my testing, one of my downloads from the App Catalog caused my Pre to crash disastrously — all my email, contacts and other data were wiped out, and the phone was unable to connect to the Sprint network or Wi-Fi. Palm conceded the catastrophe was due to problems it still has getting the App Catalog to work with the phone’s internal memory, and explained that this is one reason it hasn’t widely distributed the developer tools.



The battery life sucks as well...

http://ptech.allthingsd.com/20090603/palms-new-pre-takes-on-iphone/

I'm off for a bit. Play nice...


----------



## Sunray (Jun 4, 2009)

Engadgets review

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/03/palm-pre-review/


----------



## Crispy (Jun 4, 2009)

not in that review, but cut'n'paste only works in editable text boxes, not arbitrary text! >_<


----------



## editor (Jun 4, 2009)

I really enjoyed reading that Engadget review. Looks like there's some tweaking to be done, but overall it's an exciting new handset.

I'm still up for buying it.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 4, 2009)

definitely sounds like they've got a lot of stuff right and the niggles they do have should be easily fixed. And probably will be by the time it launches over here


----------



## Sunray (Jun 4, 2009)

Like all devices of this type, its always a hard choice between getting it out the door and getting it right. 

In Palm's case its getting it out the door 1st before the money runs out.  Seems to have polished it off reasonably well with a few rough edges which are to be expected and I can imagine they are busily working on at the moment.

Needs to be bought by people to give critical mass to make developers consider it worthwhile developing software for it.

e2a : I've been reading about it more and I ponder if its strong enough in Todays market.  The new iPhone 2 will be announced in a few days time.  

Is there enough there I won't be able to do on the iPhone 2, perhaps even do on my phone now.  Facebook and Twitter have applications. The Facebook app I can call and email. I can call using VoIP applications on WiFI.  I can IM on all the networks.   blah blah blah.

What is left?  A keyboard?  If thats a deal breaker then fine, but I look towards the new iPhone release to see how the playing field pans out after that.


----------



## Structaural (Jun 5, 2009)

Backgrounding is quite the win for me. I think I could be quite persuaded by the 2nd iteration of the Pre next year. Depends what Apple pull out of the hat.

I've realised that 90% of the iPhone apps I use are mainly the built in apps, mainly because of lack of backgrounding.


----------



## Sunray (Jun 5, 2009)

Yes as far as IM goes, background applications are useful, but Apples push server is going to be fired up when v3 is released to simulate background process at much lower battery cost.

I'll have to see how well it works before making any further comment on that.  I'm pretty certain I don't want a loop running in the back ground on an appliation I cant see.  Its not a number cruncher its a phone.  e.g. Even Windows is event driven.  So once you move from one application to the other, the previous app should get 0 cpu cycles.  I see Apples push system as a network extension of event driven applications.  What is nice on the Pre over the iPhone is that it keeps the applications loaded, meaning switching between them is much faster.  If the new iPhone is much faster tho this annoyance will be reduced.

I like the Pre's notification system.  Very slick.


----------



## Structaural (Jun 5, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Yes as far as IM goes, background applications are useful, but Apples push server is going to be fired up when v3 is released to simulate background process at much lower battery cost.
> 
> I'll have to see how well it works before making any further comment on that.  I'm pretty certain I don't want a loop running in the back ground on an appliation I cant see.  Its not a number cruncher its a phone.  e.g. Even Windows is event driven.  So once you move from one application to the other, the previous app should get 0 cpu cycles.  I see Apples push system as a network extension of event driven applications.  What is nice on the Pre over the iPhone is that it keeps the applications loaded, meaning switching between them is much faster.  If the new iPhone is much faster tho this annoyance will be reduced.
> 
> I like the Pre's notification system.  Very slick.



It should be possible if the iPhone kernel is unix based as claimed, I've 80 processes running on this work computer and 77 of them are sleeping. I heard rumours of allowing one user background app but they're not very persistent. Push could work well but no good for radio apps - they should allow you to quit the iPod too, once loaded it's always in the background. 

Anyway back to the Pre... 
I'm quietly impressed except for the App store and the lack of developers, and battery life - but I understand you can actually remove it (my 1 year old iphone's battery is terrible now). They'll get it together hopefully. It all good for us consumers.


----------



## Sunray (Jun 5, 2009)

I am very surprised by iTunes integration.  Its cool, the podcasts that are on there and the way they work is near perfect and for that alone its great the Pre gets access.

But

From where I am standing they seem to have a clear Apple baiting policy, how far are they going to take this I wonder?  

All Apple have to do in this instance is entirely change how it connects to the iPhone, which they can do as they have done it in the past.  I got an update to iTunes yesterday. It might be that after the release of v3 of the iPhone software, it'll just stop working?


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2009)

A round up of reviews:


> The *Engadget* Palm Pre review was an overall positive one: "Just like the iPhone's notches up the ladder, and the G1's contributions, the Pre moves the game forward in a very real way.
> "We know this won't be the last of the webOS devices, and we know that as Palm improves its products, so will Apple, RIM, Microsoft, Google, and the rest of the smartphone gang. Unfortunately for them, their work just got a little bit tougher."
> And *Gizmodo* says that the Palm Pre's screen is "the best multitouch screen" they've ever seen, but was slightly more reserved when giving its final verdict:
> "The Pre," it says, "may have hardware that's worse than the G1/G2, but the whole package—the software and the hardware—isn't bad. It's good. It's different. That's something we can get behind. I can't wait to see what Palm gets dealt in their next hand."
> ...


*PC World* gave it a 'very good' rating: 





> Hardware flaws aside, the Palm Pre made a solid impression on me. Its eye-catching design and smooth operation make this smartphone the most exciting device I've seen in a while.





Structaural said:


> I'm quietly impressed except for the App store and the lack of developers, and battery life - but I understand you can actually remove it (my 1 year old iphone's battery is terrible now). They'll get it together hopefully. It all good for us consumers.


Yep, the battery is removable, so you can just stock up on some cheapo back up ones and bung them in your bag if you're out for the weekend.






Someone's just pulled a Pre apart too!
http://www.rapidrepair.com/guides/Palm-Pre/palm-pre-dissasembly-repair-guide.html


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2009)

MarkSpace is about to release a sync tool for the Pre and Macs (PC coming soon):






> Take all your favorites with you — from your Mac to your Palm Pre
> 
> The Missing Sync works with Mac applications you already know and use — Address Book, iTunes, iCal, Entourage, Safari and iPhoto — to let you transfer and sync information and files between your Mac and Pre.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 7, 2009)

Anyone else see  over being accused of Palm bias due to getting a free Pre?


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Anyone else see  over being accused of Palm bias due to getting a free Pre?


Mind you, it's a bizarre accusation seeing as Laporte clearly says that he's only been given a review copy for seven days.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 7, 2009)

editor said:


> Mind you, it's a bizarre accusation seeing as Laporte clearly says that he's only been given a review copy for seven days.



Oh yeah totally, Leporte was on point with his reaction, he's a big guy profile wise and knows his stuff, he can't be accused of this kinda thing and let it fly. The other guy from Techcrunch was blatantly being a tosser about it...


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Oh yeah totally, Leporte was on point with his reaction, he's a big guy profile wise and knows his stuff, he can't be accused of this kinda thing and let it fly. The other guy from Techcrunch was blatantly being a tosser about it...


I guess there must have been a fair bit of 'previous' going on between the two but it was interesting to hear that Leporte 'loved' the Pre and wanted to buy one.

Edit to add: some interesting titbits:





> Here are some cool and interesting tidbits we learned about the Palm Pre:
> 
> * In general, this Palm hardware reminds us a lot more of Apple's engineering style than any of hardware we've taken apart by other manufacturers (like Dell).
> * The Pre logic board is substantially smaller than the iPhone logic board, which is very impressive considering how renowned Apple's engineers are for shrinking hardware footprints.
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 7, 2009)

editor said:


> I guess there must have been a fair bit of 'previous' going on between the two but it was interesting to hear that Leporte 'loved' the Pre and wanted to buy one.



Yep, it was a little shocking to see him swear as he's normally so mild mannered...the Pre is getting some good reviews, and some decent buzz but I can't help feel it's about to be trounced by the new iPhone press coverage wise...


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yep, it was a little shocking to see him swear as he's normally so mild mannered...the Pre is getting some good reviews, and some decent buzz but I can't help feel it's about to be trounced by the new iPhone press coverage wise...


I'm sure Apple will get the usual ton of press but the Pre has already made quite a splash and looks on course to notch up decent sales. 

It's not going to trounce the iPhone, but that's not really the point: Palm need a solid, innovative performer as a platform to build on and the Pre seems to living up to its promise.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jun 7, 2009)

editor said:


> MarkSpace is about to release a sync tool for the Pre and Macs (PC coming soon):



this is very good news...

my only other question mark is my legacy palm apps working on pre with the emulator


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> this is very good news...
> 
> my only other question mark is my legacy palm apps working on pre with the emulator


I think most old apps will run but you're buggered if they rely on hotsyncing - which buggers up Bonsai and NoteStudio.

It seems that the Pre has had a good start, with stores selling out pretty quickly.





> Sprint’s store on Mission Street in San Francisco sold out of its allotment of 60 Pre phones within two hours, manager Daniel Chan said. The outlet started a waiting list and will get its next consignment in a few days, he said. About half the people who bought the Pre already owned an iPhone, he said.
> 
> Misha Vladimirskiy, a 30-year-old photographer from San Francisco, is on that waiting list and was told he should get his Pre in five days.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2009)

Tech guru Walt Mossberg calls it 'beautiful, innovative and versatile' in this seven minute video review.


> All in all, I believe the Pre is a smart, sophisticated product that will have particular appeal for those who want a physical keyboard. It is thoughtfully designed, works well and could give the iPhone and BlackBerry strong competition -- but only if it fixes its app store and can attract third-party developers.



http://www.textually.org/textually/archives/2009/06/023774.htm/QUOTE]


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2009)

T3 Mag have just reviewed the Pre - and they're well impressed.





> As for the design, Palm did an inspired job of balancing the weight, size and shape of the Pre to fit gracefully into your hand (see hands-on photos here). When closed, it’s like holding a small, highly polished stone - a stone that can stream the music service Pandora while alerting you that your flight’s delayed. The screen is crisp, with 320 x 480 pixels - the exact same as the iPhone, though smaller in size, resulting in a better picture overall.
> 
> Multitouch works like a dream, with a light flick of the finger called upon when needing to perform an action. We hate to keep comparing it to the iPhone, but it feels more accurate and responsive, particularly when flicking the finger upwards to exit a program.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2009)

According to some analysts, Palm shifted their entire stock of 50-60,000 Pres over the weekend, with 150,000 app downloads in the first day alone. Nothing on the iPhone's numbers of course, but still very impressive. 

http://i.gizmodo.com/5283156/more-than-50000-palm-pres-sold-more-than-150000-apps-downloaded


----------



## Structaural (Jun 9, 2009)

No-one on here bought one yet then? Or is it US only?


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2009)

US only for now. If the comments on sites like Engadget are anything to go by (cue pinch of salt), the Pre is still looking a very strong contender after Apple's new iPhone announcement, and initial user feedback has been very positive.


----------



## Structaural (Jun 9, 2009)

Ah. Well I look forward to an Urban75 review.

Considering the prices for the new iPhone I think quite a few people will be tempted by the Pre and still no backgrounding on the iPhone... I can see a few Apple-hating mates upgrading their N95s to the Pre (or G1).


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2009)

Nearly a week after launch, there's still a considerable buzz being generated by the Pre, with the phone picking up very positive reviews all round and huge interest from the tech community.

And here's a interesting 'leak': 





> Looks like Palm's webOS Reset Doctor, intended for resetting Pre smartphones with a mangled system, has been outed to the public at large along with a very special bonus for hackers and other programming enthusiasts: a complete 195MB root image of webOS itself. Code-inclined individuals on the PreCentral forums have already cracked open the ROM and are getting an unfettered glimpse at the Palm's new platform, which for the layman means it should open the doors for some crazy Pre hacking and possibly hint, by way of unfinished / unused code, of what's to come for the platform -- and if we're really lucky, maybe someone will be able to look at this and move us one step closer to an unlocked Pre that could jump onto Verizon's network
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/09/palms-webos-root-image-leaks-out-code-enthusiasts-reschedule-t/


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2009)

Advantage Palm when it comes to price, then. By miles. 






Oh,  and Jon Rubinstein, the ex-head of Apple's iPod and Mac divisions, is now totally in charge at Palm.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/10/jon-rubinstein-takes-over-as-palm-ceo/


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2009)

There's a very comprehensive review on Tech Radar. They seem pretty impressed. The camera pics looked pretty damn good too,





> The Palm Pre is a good messaging phone, but not the best we have ever tried. It beats the iPhone, which is why we think the Palm Pre has a better shot as a business phone than a personal media player.
> 
> Keys on the slide-out keyboard are quite small – a hair smaller than the soft keys on the iPhone, in fact – but you will likely be able to type faster on the Palm Pre because of the tactile feedback – you can pres quickly and move on, but the iPhone soft keys provide no sensation when you press – unlike the Samsung Instinct, which uses haptics to give you feedback on finger presses.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 11, 2009)

editor said:


> Advantage Palm when it comes to price, then. By miles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wonder how that will look when the Pre is released over here and how they will all compare. Btw where did that image come from?


----------



## g force (Jun 11, 2009)

Is that really Sprint's advantage on the bit that really matters - the service plans..the handset only price difference is $49. Or more like, huge fuck up by AT&T as per usual.


----------



## Sunray (Jun 11, 2009)

That price difference is entirely down to AT&T having the iPhone contract.

O2 have it here, expect near identical pricing to the iPhone.


----------



## g force (Jun 11, 2009)

Which is a joke - so much for consumer choice with exclusive network deals...


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2009)

Sunray said:


> That price difference is entirely down to AT&T having the iPhone contract.
> 
> O2 have it here, expect near identical pricing to the iPhone.


I wouldn't bet on it.


----------



## Sunray (Jun 11, 2009)

Its the same price on Sprint as the iPhone (after that rebate).

Why would they give you a separate contract for it?

If they do offer a different contract to the iPhone,  one camp will be pissed off.


----------



## sumimasen (Jun 11, 2009)

editor said:


> I wouldn't bet on it.



You think iPhone would let o2 get away with selling the Pre at a lesser price? Doubtful.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 11, 2009)

WTF is "Nike+ integration"


----------



## g force (Jun 11, 2009)

Utterly pointless is what it is.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jun 11, 2009)

nike+ is a little gadget that goes in your running shoe and tells your ipod how fast you are going etc etc


----------



## Crispy (Jun 11, 2009)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> WTF is "Nike+ integration"


you get bluetooth trainers so you can go jogging and the ipod records your run, plays music that varies in intensity etc. pretty popular apparently.
http://www.apple.com/ipod/nike/

waste of time if you ask me


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2009)

Crispy said:


> you get bluetooth trainers so you can go jogging and the ipod records your run, plays music that varies in intensity etc. pretty popular apparently.
> http://www.apple.com/ipod/nike/
> 
> waste of time if you ask me


Especially if you hate Nike!

You can see just about every single screen you'll ever see on the Palm pre: 
http://www.techradar.com/news/phone...-pre-screen-explained-607521?src=rss&attr=all

It really is a beautifully designed interface, easily as good as the iPhone's (if not better, IMO), which makes the new Nokia look even more stone age.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 11, 2009)

Crispy said:


> you get bluetooth trainers



Please tell me you're joking


----------



## g force (Jun 12, 2009)

editor said:


> Especially if you hate Nike!
> 
> You can see just about every single screen you'll ever see on the Palm pre:
> http://www.techradar.com/news/phone...-pre-screen-explained-607521?src=rss&attr=all
> ...



Sure it looks good but the iPhone's is incredibly user friendly...even my dad the world's biggest technophobe 'got it' and from the vids I think the iPhone shades it on useability.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 12, 2009)

g force said:


> Sure it looks good but the iPhone's is incredibly user friendly...even my dad the world's biggest technophobe 'got it' and from the vids I think the iPhone shades it on useability.



I did read somewhere that the gestures on the Pre aren't obvious and when it was shown to people they weren't sure how to use the phone. Contrast this with the iPhone which anyone without smart phone experience can use with ease...


----------



## Crispy (Jun 12, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I did read somewhere that the gestures on the Pre aren't obvious and when it was shown to people they weren't sure how to use the phone. Contrast this with the iPhone which anyone without smart phone experience can use with ease...


This worries me too. The 'gesture area' is completely unmarked and does multiple things that are not immediately apparent. It's very clever and looks nice to use, but it's not intuitive.


----------



## editor (Jun 12, 2009)

It takes a little learning for sure, but once learnt it looks a lot better than the iPhone's UI.


----------



## Sunray (Jun 12, 2009)

I think better in this context is very hard to quantify. 

I would reserve judgement on that till I had one in my hand.


----------



## editor (Jun 12, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I think better in this context is very hard to quantify.
> 
> I would reserve judgement on that till I had one in my hand.


I think being able to flick through pages without having to touch the screen every time is smart, and the 'flick' card paradigm is box fresh good.

I'm not saying that it's better than the iPhone, but I do think the Palm's UI is the best out there now.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 12, 2009)

editor said:


> It takes a little learning for sure, but once learnt it looks a lot better than the iPhone's UI.



If you have to 'learn' how to use a phone there's a failure of design going on somewhere isn't there?


----------



## paolo (Jun 12, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> If you have to 'learn' how to use a phone there's a failure of design going on somewhere isn't there?



I've not used a Pre so I can't comment on the specifics, however I think it's fair to say that once in a while there's a new paradigm that justifies a change in thinking that users have to adapt to.

When you put someone in front of a Mac back in '84 they wouldn't know what a close box was, a scroll bar, none of those things. The unfamiliarity didn't make it wrong though. Quite the opposite.


----------



## editor (Jun 12, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> If you have to 'learn' how to use a phone there's a failure of design going on somewhere isn't there?


You mean like you don't have to learn how to use a computer, a car, a camera, an MP3 player, software etc? Oh, hang on....

Even the humble mouse baffled people at first.


----------



## editor (Jun 12, 2009)

Now this is terrific news:


> Palm Pre owners making the jump from the iPhone, or anyone looking to get more organizational synchronization going, take note: Evernote has quietly dropped an official client in the Pre's App Catalog for download.
> 
> Adding text notes and pictures from your Pre's camera or photo roll are the two big features in this client, but the Palm's multi-tasking "cards" also allows for having multiple notes open at once. While a search box isn't apparent from the home screen, just start typing with the keyboard and you'll see note results as you type. No audio recording or file uploads at the moment, but that could be coming in a future update.









This suggests that there's a whole load of apps for the Pre coming our way soon.


----------



## Sunray (Jun 12, 2009)

editor said:


> I think being able to flick through pages without having to touch the screen every time is smart, and the 'flick' card paradigm is box fresh good.
> 
> I'm not saying that it's better than the iPhone, but I do think the Palm's UI is the best out there now.



That sentence is a contradiction.  

I do think that its splitting hairs.  The iPhone UI is very simple.  They make a use of a lot of text on buttons which I feel is one of their master strokes.  Icons have been show to be deficient because you can't easily depict abstract concepts like Paste in a small icon.  If you can fit it on the button, write what that button does in text.  

If you look at the iPhone this philosophy has been take to quite some length.  Its not free of icons, but its not got many. 

While Palm have noticed this, they haven't really taken it on board like Apple have 









Case in point. As you can see, text and icons. I know which is more obvious.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 12, 2009)

editor said:


> You mean like you don't have to learn how to use a computer, a car, a camera, an MP3 player, software etc? Oh, hang on....
> 
> Even the humble mouse baffled people at first.



Me personally it's not an issue but for your average punter...?


----------



## editor (Jun 12, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Me personally it's not an issue but for your average punter...?


Nokia sell phones by the crateload and they've got one of the worst and most baffling  UIs known to man.


----------



## editor (Jun 12, 2009)

This is what I call a good UI:


> Palm did its best to bring together as many kinds of data as it could. Displaying email, calendar, and address book information from different sources all together is a no-brainer, but that's just part of it.
> 
> Instant messaging is a good example. This combines conversations from different IM services, and regular text messages, too. It doesn't matter if a friend is texting you or chatting over IM, all your messages from this person are threaded together.
> 
> ...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jun 12, 2009)

That is quite very cool.


----------



## Sunray (Jun 12, 2009)

At your end, potentially weirding out who ever your talking to!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 12, 2009)

editor said:


> Nokia sell phones by the crateload and they've got one of the worst and most baffling  UIs known to man.



Branding helps though doesn't it? People have been using them for years. Basically if a punter goes into a shop and has a quick play with a iPhone then a Pre which do you think they're instantly going to like and understand?


----------



## editor (Jun 13, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Branding helps though doesn't it? People have been using them for years. Basically if a punter goes into a shop and has a quick play with a iPhone then a Pre which do you think they're instantly going to like and understand?


Apple sure managed to get people into the concept of using an onscreen keyboard instead of a familiar QWERTY hardware one and there were 'nuff people who found that hard at first.


----------



## Sunray (Jun 13, 2009)

I'm looking forward to getting to have a go at one of these at some point.  Given that they only managed to get 200k into shops in the US, its not looking good for UK delivery.   I'm assuming they can ramp production up, its not like they don't know how to, they make other phones.


----------



## editor (Jun 13, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I'm looking forward to getting to have a go at one of these at some point.  Given that they only managed to get 200k into shops in the US, its not looking good for UK delivery.   I'm assuming they can ramp production up, its not like they don't know how to, they make other phones.


They haven't really launched it properly in the States yet - it's had hardly any promotion to date, but they must be well chuffed with the sales.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 13, 2009)

Good news that Palm have seen sense are now downplaying other Web os devices until the Pre proves itself sales wise. It was never a wise strategy to make people buying the Pre feel something else might be coming a few months down the line...


----------



## Sunray (Jun 13, 2009)

I suppose the version they have released is a special version for the cosy up to Sprint because precious few networks run EVDO.  Sort of a pre release. Who in their right mind would buy a phone that can only be used in the US with varying degrees of success?  Fortunately for Palm only 10% of the US have a passport.

The GSM version is the big one because when that launches it can be used worldwide.


----------



## editor (Jun 13, 2009)

Palm have always been much, much bigger in the US than anywhere else. You go the States and you'll see Centros and Treos everywhere, whereas they're both rare over here.


----------



## mack (Jun 13, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Fortunately for Palm only 10% of the US have a passport.



That explains a lot.


----------



## editor (Jun 15, 2009)

Spot the difference between Apple and Palm's approach to hackers:


> *Palm caution hackers over Pre tethering: Sprint might get mad*
> 
> Palm have cautioned one group of webOS hackers regarding opening up the Pre to unofficial tethering, not because they don’t wish their platform to be modified but as it might anger Sprint.  The team behind the Pre Dev Wiki were “politely cautioned” by the manufacturer that discussing ways to enable tethering on the smartphone might prompt Sprint to pressure Palm into shutting down the project.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jun 15, 2009)

Engadget have tried to spin it, but the developer who received the email from Palm explains:





> I was the person who received that message from Palm. They have been extremely friendly to the hacking scene thus so far. Gizmodo has blown it out of proportion. WebOS updates are only required because Palm doesn't want the maintain old infrastructure necessary to keep old versions of the OS running. Tethering directly breaks the AUP/ToS, and Sprint obviously doesn't want that. Palm has to keep Sprint happy.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/15/palm-webos-system-upgrades-mandatory-hacking-scene-forbidden-fr/



Edit: tethering is go already!
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/15/pre-data-tethering-is-a-go-sprint-be-damned/


----------



## editor (Jun 15, 2009)

Hello... the latest  rumour is that the Pre will be hitting eastern Europe in September ($550 contract free), so presumably we'll get it before that.

http://www.prethinking.com/home/200...g-to-the-european-markets-this-september.html


----------



## Sunray (Jun 15, 2009)

editor said:


> Hello... the latest  rumour is that the Pre will be hitting eastern Europe in September ($550 contract free), so presumably we'll get it before that.
> 
> http://www.prethinking.com/home/200...g-to-the-european-markets-this-september.html



Thats site has the stupidest poill ever.  Palm Pre v iPhone on a Palm Pre site.  

Must remember to bookmark it on my iPhone.


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## editor (Jun 15, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Thats site has the stupidest poill ever.  Palm Pre v iPhone on a Palm Pre site.


You'll find similar ones on iPhone sites. 

In fact, this one did an entire feature on it - and wasn't as biased as you might think. http://iphonehelp.in/2009/05/31/palm-pre-vs-the-apple-iphone-3g-final-preview/


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## jæd (Jun 16, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Thats site has the stupidest poill ever.  Palm Pre v iPhone on a Palm Pre site.
> 
> Must remember to bookmark it on my iPhone.



Anyone who thinks Internet polls are accurate or representative is a muppet...


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## editor (Jun 20, 2009)

Considering there aren't many apps available, this is a mighty impressive figure: 





> *Close to 700,000 Palm Pre apps downloaded to date*
> There may not be a ton of Pre apps available just yet, but it looks like there's enough to accumulate an impressive 666,511 downloads as of June 17th, which likely means that we're close to or past the 700,000 mark by now. As you can see above in graph form courtesy of Medialets, things have been rising steadily as more and more apps became available, and there's no noticeable sign of a drop-off even as apps remained around the 30 mark after the end of the first week. Of course, it's obviously still a little early to draw any firm conclusions, and there's no telling how things could shake out once the long-awaited PreFart and PreBeer apps make their debut.
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/20/close-to-700-000-palm-pre-apps-downloaded-to-date/








There's an excellent and hugely in-depth review of the Palm Pre here, which does a good job of highlighting the phones weaknesses and strengths compared to the iPhone.

The big surprise for me was battery life. I thought the iPhone would trounce the Pre, but they're very similar. The reviewer notes that the build quality is much better on the iPhone, but there are some compelling features on the Pre:


> Augmenting that powerful combination, Palm did a tremendous job in bringing brand new features to the table. Shame on Nokia, Motorola and the established cell phone industry for failing to do what it took Palm two years to do.
> 
> The Pre’s multitasking is one area where Palm completely trumped Apple. There are tradeoffs that Palm made but the Pre is just so much more productive (perhaps more for chatting than actual work) because of its multitasking support. There’s absolutely no reason for Apple not to embrace something similar. I’m guessing we won’t see real multitasking from Apple until iPhone OS 4.0, but there’s a lot of catch up that Apple needs to do here. If Apple had been working on multitasking since before the Pre announcement, we’ll easily see it supported in the iPhone next year. If Apple didn’t start on multitasking support until after Palm’s CES keynote, we won’t see it until 2011. Without a doubt this is a clear advantage for Palm.
> 
> ...


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## editor (Jun 22, 2009)

_This_ is why the Palm webOS is worth supporting:


> *Want to Jailbreak the Pre? No Worries, Palm Says*
> 
> The Palm Pre's Mojo SDK still isn't available to the public, and coders are champing at the bit. They're so eager to program for the Pre that some folks have hacked into their Pres and are beginning to create the same sort of "jailbroken" community we've seen for years on the iPhone.
> 
> ...


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 23, 2009)

Great news. The more succesfull they are the more likely others will follow suit thus putting pressure on Apple who will in turn make a superior product even better!


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## editor (Jun 23, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Great news. The more succesfull they are the more likely others will follow suit thus putting pressure on Apple who will in turn make a superior product even better!


Well, you can always dream, I guess.

This is interesting (albeit not too scientific):


> *Palm Pre beats iPhone 3G S in 2 out of 3 speed tests by CNET*
> 
> In a special episode of CNET Prizefight, Briant Tong, Bonnie Cha, and Nicole Lee pit the iPhone 3G S against the Palm Pre in three speed tests: boot up time, loading a Web page, and taking and sending a photo. They also included the second-gen iPhone in the tests for further comparison.
> 
> ...


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 23, 2009)

Is it? I thought you said on the other thread you didn't see much value in these kinds of test for most people?

Either way isn't it a little undermined by this whopping great caveat:



> Keep in mind that this is a non-scientific test that takes place in the CNET studios in San Francisco, a city where the iPhone suffers from widely-reported network problems.


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## editor (Jun 23, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Is it? I thought you said on the other thread you didn't see much value in these kinds of test for most people?


I said it was interesting, that's all.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 23, 2009)

Why is it interesting if it doesn't mean anything due to it's methodology being so obviously flawed?


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## editor (Jun 23, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Why is it interesting if it doesn't mean anything due to it's methodology being so obviously flawed?


I found the feature of interest and certainly don't dismiss all user opinion and comparisons unless they're standing in a lab with their phone.


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## editor (Jun 24, 2009)

Hackers are getting busy with the Pre even though the SDK isn't out yet, and it's an encouraging sign for the platform. Some dude has already got a Nintendo emulator running directly on the Pre.


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## editor (Jun 24, 2009)

Interesting, in-depth article on eWeek:

*Why the Palm Pre Is a Major Advancement in Smartphones*
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wireless/Why-the-Palm-Pre-is-a-Major-Advancement-in-Smartphones/


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## editor (Jun 25, 2009)

Despite their only being a paltry 30 apps currently available and the phone only available in limited numbers, Palm have delivered a staggering one million app downloads already - something that's sure to attract the attention of developers. 

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/25/palm-app-catalog-sees-1-million-downloads/

There's a great detailed piece on Ars Technica, contrasting the differing UI approaches between the iPhone and the webOS: 





> So right now, it's obvious that Pre is a 1.0 product, but it's also clear that it's a fantastic start. If Palm can continue to refine webOS and to offer new models in different form factors, then the sky's the limit for where this platform can go.
> http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/reviews/2009/06/ars-palm-pre-review.ars


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## Structaural (Jun 25, 2009)

Its lacklustre build is a problem for a few owners with cracked screens, I wonder how they'll hold up during a two-year contract:

http://www.precentral.net/psb-pre-screen-cracks-emerge


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## editor (Jun 25, 2009)

Structaural said:


> Its lacklustre build is a problem for a few owners with cracked screens, I wonder how they'll hold up during a two-year contract:


That article says that they're all being replaced by the stores without any hassle, so it would suggest it's an early production run problem.


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## Crispy (Jun 25, 2009)

That's an excellent article and I'm still only half way through (the ars one)
EDIT: It's really making me want one


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## jæd (Jun 25, 2009)

editor said:


> Despite their only being a paltry 30 apps currently available and the phone only available in limited numbers, Palm have delivered a staggering one million app downloads already - something that's sure to attract the attention of developers.



I make that an average of 6.67 apps downloaded per Pre if this is to be believed :
http://www.gadgetell.com/tech/comment/150k-palm-pre-sold-says-analyst/

How does that compare to iPhone apps...? 

Main problem is the SDK isn't on _general_ release until the "end of summer", along with the Pre unit shortage. Although I wonder if WebOS as is easy to use whether it might be a handy prototyping tool...  

Do you have any links to an online frontend to the Pre App store...? 



editor said:


> There's a great detailed piece on Ars Technica, contrasting the differing UI approaches between the iPhone and the webOS:



That's certainly a comprehensive piece. I made a PDF of the article to read yesterday in the park.    PM me if anyone wants a copy.


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## editor (Jun 25, 2009)

Crispy said:


> That's an excellent article and I'm still only half way through (the ars one)
> EDIT: It's really making me want one


The bit about how Palm effectively plumped for an Apple-style method of dealing with multi-tasking is very interesting. 

There's no denying that at times it's v1.0-ness shines through, with rough edges here and there, but I think it's a tremendously exciting platform.


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## editor (Jun 25, 2009)

jæd said:


> Main problem is the SDK isn't on _general_ release until the "end of summer", along with the Pre unit shortage. Although I wonder if WebOS as is easy to use whether it might be a handy prototyping tool...


It's not on general release, but they're getting it out to 'thousands' of developers and there's already a fair bit of hacking going on.



jæd said:


> Do you have any links to an online frontend to the Pre App store...?


It's on their main site.


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## g force (Jun 25, 2009)

Crispy said:


> That's an excellent article and I'm still only half way through (the ars one)
> EDIT: It's really making me want one



It really needs a decent edit though...too many "paradigms" for a start.


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## jæd (Jun 25, 2009)

editor said:


> It's not on general release, but they're getting it out to 'thousands' of developers and there's already a fair bit of hacking going on.



Not to us yet... 



editor said:


> It's on their main site.



Where...?  I can see http://software.palm.com/uk/en/ but that's old Palm stuff and Windows Mobile... I keep getting bounced back to the uk site... Is it on the us version...?


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## editor (Jun 25, 2009)

jæd said:


> Where...?  I can see http://software.palm.com/uk/en/ but that's old Palm stuff and Windows Mobile... I keep getting bounced back to the uk site... Is it on the us version...?


It's here (or at least the more well known ones are):
http://www.palm.com/us/products/phones/pre/pre-mobile-applications.html

Bigger listing here:
http://www.techradar.com/news/phone.../20-palm-pre-apps-you-should-try-today-608278

Updated listings here:
http://www.everythingpre.com/forum/palm-pre/updating-pre-apps-list-18791.html


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 25, 2009)

iPhone 3GS pisses all over the Pre in web browsing speeds:



> The results of the iPhone-based tests alone are rather astonishing and seem to indicate that many of Apple’s claims about the performance gains of their 3.0 OS and the iPhone 3GS may hold some water. Using OS 3.0 on the same iPhone 3G yields nearly 3X the JavaScript performance in Mobile Safari vs. using iPhone OS 2.2.1. The iPhone 3GS ups the ante by another factor of 3, bringing JavaScript performance on the iPhone 3GS to just 12X that of a full-powered desktop machine that has well over four times the raw processing muscle alone. The T-Mobile G1 running the “Cupcake” version of the Android OS completed the test suite in about 91 seconds. This makes it about a third faster than the iPhone 3G running Apple’s previous OS (2.2.1). The Palm Pre came storming out of the gate with speeds that closely rival the iPhone 3G running Apple’s latest iPhone OS.


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## editor (Jun 25, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> iPhone 3GS pisses all over the Pre in web browsing speeds:


It's not just about browsing speeds though, is it?

Besides other tests have come up with different results:
http://www.iphonefootprint.com/2009/06/iphone-3g-s-versus-palm-pre-speed-test/


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## jæd (Jun 26, 2009)

editor said:


> It's here (or at least the more well known ones are):
> http://www.palm.com/us/products/phones/pre/pre-mobile-applications.html
> 
> Bigger listing here:
> ...



Thanks, thats useful. 

The main problem appears to be :



> *The payment system for the Palm app store — important if the company wants to charge for certain programs — is still under construction*. And most crucially, Palm has yet to open its software development kit, the main set of tools needed to write apps, to most of the thousands of developers who have expressed an interest in creating programs for the Pre.



http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/technology/companies/24palm.html

My bold. 

My thoughts are that they've had six months to plan for this and have have been shown how this works by Apple. (And they are supposed to have Apple devs...) Why are they taking their time...? Did they run out of money before the Pre was released...?


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 26, 2009)

jæd said:


> Thanks, thats useful.
> 
> The main problem appears to be :
> 
> ...



They've had longer than six months; they must have been working on the Pre for at least a year, they know about the Apple app store for about the same amount of time if not longer, what on earth are Palm playing at?


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## editor (Jun 26, 2009)

Palm have just come up with a brand new OS and a brand new phone. They already have an app store up and running - something that Apple couldn't manage for a year after the launch of the iPhone - and a huge amount of work is going into progressing the platform.

Expecting them to roll out a complete package to the same standard of a well established rival twenty times their size strikes me as a bit naive. It took Apple a long time to offer the absolute basics of a smartphone (three versions before MMS!) so clearly compromises have to be made on a handset's evolution. I'd say Palm is on track.


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## jæd (Jun 26, 2009)

editor said:


> Palm have just come up with a brand new OS and a brand new phone. They already have an app store up and running - something that Apple couldn't manage for a year after the launch of the iPhone - and a huge amount of work is going into progressing the platform.
> 
> Expecting them to roll out a complete package to the same standard of a well established rival twenty times their size strikes me as a bit naive. It took Apple a long time to offer the absolute basics of a smartphone (three versions before MMS!) so clearly compromises have to be made on a handset's evolution. I'd say Palm is on track.



That doesn't really cut it for me... Apple had to come up with the whole concept from more or less scratch. Palm not only have had long experience of selling applications on-line, but had a model to aim for. And Apple and Android are both interesting case-studies...

I understand why the SDK is delayed (since there were probably last minute changes to the o/s, etc...) but to still be working on the App Store might be their undoing...


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## editor (Jun 26, 2009)

jæd said:


> That doesn't really cut it for me... Apple had to come up with the whole concept from more or less scratch. Palm not only have had long experience of selling applications on-line, but had a model to aim for. And Apple and Android are both interesting case-studies...


Android - backed by the might of Google - was released in October 2008 and didn't support paid apps until the middle of Feb 2009.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jun 26, 2009)

Might we see it on other devices? I've got to say it strikes me as interesting platform and by the time my contract expires it should have matured, with hopefully more devices. 

From Engadget



> Palm had its quarterly results conference call yesterday and although CEO Jon Rubinstein and CFO Doug Jeffries kept a pretty tight lid on the future product talk, they did say that licensing webOS to third parties isn't "a religious issue for us." That's pretty vague, sure, but we can't help but immediately think back to the golden age of Palm OS, when licensees like Sony put out amazing devices like the Clie PEG-NZ90 that we've lovingly mocked up with a webOS screenshot above -- we're sure Palm's upcoming handsets will be interesting in their own right, but we'd love to see a manufacturer like HTC riff on webOS the way it's tweaking Android. Of course, Jeffries also said Palm has "no plans at this time to even talk about" licensing, so this is all just a pipe dream for now, but let's not ruin the moment, okay? Hit the read link for the full call transcript.



Complete with a mockup


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## editor (Jun 26, 2009)

Decent  sales are being predicted for the Pre:


> A market analyst says Sprint has probably sold 150,000 Palm Pre's since this smartphone debuted early this month. But that's just a drop in the bucket for analyst's predictions for the future.
> 
> At this point, sales are still being held down by the Palm's inability to meet demand. This is something these companies warned would be the case after the launch, and Palm isn't expected to be able to keep up with demand until late next month.
> 
> ...


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 26, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Might we see it on other devices? I've got to say it strikes me as interesting platform and by the time my contract expires it should have matured, with hopefully more devices.
> 
> From Engadget
> 
> ...



Well I hope he's being vague because they have a plan to aggressively push licensing the OS out. It'd be a real disappointment if they didn't tbh...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jun 26, 2009)

Maybe. I can't see apple ever licensing out osx, but I doubt they will suffer. If Palm do I can't see them doing it for a while yet, they need to iron out the bugs first.

I hope the Pre is just one of a family of devices though, webOS sounds a cool concept, but hardware wise I've been spoilt by my Touch HD.


----------



## editor (Jun 26, 2009)

The Sony Palm OS devices were awesome.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 26, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Maybe. I can't see apple ever licensing out osx, but I doubt they will suffer. If Palm do I can't see them doing it for a while yet, they need to iron out the bugs first.
> 
> I hope the Pre is just one of a family of devices though, webOS sounds a cool concept, but hardware wise I've been spoilt by my Touch HD.



I hope they do, I want Palm to be a huge success along with Google's Android because it will mean better smartphones.



editor said:


> The Sony Palm OS devices were awesome.



Never had one but had a good look with a couple of friends that used to swear by them, very nearly bought one but they ceased supporting/making them by the time I needed a PDA...


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Never had one but had a good look with a couple of friends that used to swear by them, very nearly bought one but they ceased supporting/making them by the time I needed a PDA...


The Sony Palm OS devices were excellent - and way ahead of their time. I had two of them and loved 'em.

Elsewhere, it looks like the SDK is being really opened up now:





> Rumor: We’re hearing lots of reports of people being welcomed to the Palm Mojo SDK early access program today. Perhaps this means that the grand expansion of the program Palm said wasn’t happening till the end of the Summer has been accelerated due to the amount of phones being sold and the demand for new applications. Or maybe the people we’re hearing from are just lucky.
> 
> This was sent in by a tipster who claims that it’s part of the official welcome email from the Palm Developer Program:
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2009)

The SDK has now been thoroughly leaked out into the wild and available for download through torrents.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/27/palms-mojo-sdk-beta-for-webos-leaks-into-the-wild/


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## jæd (Jun 29, 2009)

editor said:


> The SDK has now been thoroughly leaked out into the wild and available for download through torrents.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/27/palms-mojo-sdk-beta-for-webos-leaks-into-the-wild/



Heh. Just wish they had leaked the Mac one. Annoying to have to use VMWare.


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2009)

Now this makes the Pre even more tempting: there's now an extended battery available that the same size as the original, offering 1350mAh of juice. It's not cheap at $45, but that price will come down.

Elsewhere, there's an interesting user review here from a bloke living 'off grid' which highlights one of the appealing aspects of Palm Pre and WebOS, and that's that it isn't dependent on a host computer for backups and for firmware updates. The fella lives in the middle of Texas, and he's liking the Palm so far:





> The Pre has been all that I could have asked for, and more. Here are some snippets of what I do with my phone...
> 
> *I am able to snap pictures as I work and immediately text or email them to interested parties.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2009)

Given the choice between fast'n'basic and slow'n'fully featured, I think I'd plump for the Pre's approach. The camera on my G1 is a shocker!





> The Pre carries a 3-megapixel camera. It doesn't have autofocus, but it does have a flash. The camera takes pictures extremely fast. It shoots them nearly as fast as the shutter release button can be pressed. This means end users aren't likely to miss those must-have shots of their kids scoring the game-winning goal. Even when the flash is being used, the camera works lickety-split.
> 
> The camera does lack a number of features, though. All users can do is take pictures. There are no user-configurable controls for altering the way the Pre captures images. This means the photographers in the crowd might run into some frustration in that they won't be able to fine-tune the camera. For most users, this probably isn't going to be an issue. Pictures taken with the Pre are pretty good. Focus, exposure, white balance and color were captured accurately by the Pre.
> 
> http://www.informationweek.com/news...articleID=218101430&pgno=4&queryText=&isPrev=


----------



## jæd (Jun 30, 2009)

editor said:


> Elsewhere, there's an interesting user review here from a bloke living 'off grid' which highlights one of the appealing aspects of Palm Pre and WebOS, and that's that it isn't dependent on a host computer for backups and for firmware updates. The fella lives in the middle of Texas, and he's liking the Palm so far:



If he's living "off the grid" how come he has a mobile phone contract and wifi in his cabin. That T-1000 will find him in no time...


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2009)

jæd said:


> If he's living "off the grid" how come he has a mobile phone contract and wifi in his cabin. That T-1000 will find him in no time...


 From the second paragraph of that article: 





> ...my family lives completely off-grid. What power we do use comes from our small solar array, and we do occasionally run a generator.
> http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/188142-off-grid-living-palm-pre.html


Ahem.

I guess being able to update his phone without having to fire up a desktop/laptop would lighten the power load slightly for the fella. It's an interesting article.


----------



## jæd (Jun 30, 2009)

editor said:


> From the second paragraph of that article: Ahem.
> 
> I guess being able to update his phone without having to fire up a desktop/laptop would lighten the power load slightly for the fella. It's an interesting article.



Fair point. I've always assumed that off-the-grid included off the communications grid as well... I is wrong. 

That ability to upgrade the firmware has smacked down some of those homebrew guys making their own tones.



> If you’ve been having fun downloading new message tones via email links using the loophole in webOS software your fun has come to an end with the OTA webOS update 1.04 which has provided security fixes for the operating system.


http://palmgoon.com/webos-update-104-arrives-and-kills-email-homebrew-apps-boo/


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## editor (Jun 30, 2009)

jæd said:


> That ability to upgrade the firmware has smacked down some of those homebrew guys making their own tones.


I don't think people are too surprised by that seeing as it let people install programs via email!


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2009)

The GSM version must be getting closer! Here's a bloke in Vietnam using one.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/30/video-palm-pre-caught-playing-with-gsm-sim-in-vietnam/


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## editor (Jul 1, 2009)

jæd said:


> Heh. Just wish they had leaked the Mac one. Annoying to have to use VMWare.


And here it is  

http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9851/mac-version-of-the-webos-mojo-sdk-leaked/


----------



## youbeauty (Jul 1, 2009)

iPhone vs Pre smackdown from the Register. iPhone wins on points: 

www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/01/palm_pre_v_iphone_3gs/


----------



## jæd (Jul 1, 2009)

editor said:


> And here it is
> 
> http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9851/mac-version-of-the-webos-mojo-sdk-leaked/



Thanks, but I don't need this now


----------



## jayeola (Jul 1, 2009)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/01/palm_pre_v_iphone_3gs/ started reading this palm pre vs iphone comparison


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## editor (Jul 1, 2009)

youbeauty said:


> iPhone vs Pre smackdown from the Register. iPhone wins on points: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/01/palm_pre_v_iphone_3gs/


Interesting article, but it's a bit strange that price isn't factored in - I believe the Pre is substantially cheaper than the iPhone in the States. Still, it's a strong showing considering its a v1 phone against a mature product from one of the richest tech companies on the planet. I thoroughly disagree with the reviewer about the keyboard though....


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 1, 2009)

How well is the Pre doing compared the 1st gen iPhone?


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> How well is the Pre doing compared the 1st gen iPhone?


It terms of features, it's miles ahead compared to the original iPhone - in fact, some of its features are miles ahead of the 3GS, but if you're referring to sales, then it's clearly not going to match Apple's much hyped launch or any subsequent launches. It's a much, much smaller company.

Word is that the Pre's sold 300,000 so far which isn't bad considering supplies are limited and they've only just started their promotoinal push.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2009)

UK launch details to be revealed next week?






			
				T3 Mag said:
			
		

> Palm Pre UK launch announcement to be made next week?
> 
> Finally, the UK gets a look-in on the year's hottest touchscreen mobile launch
> 
> ...


----------



## g force (Jul 1, 2009)

Please be on Vodafone so I can be tempted!!!


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2009)

I don't really care what network it's on. But anything but T Mobile would be nice.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 1, 2009)

I don't care either - as long as it has a reasonably priced UNLIMITED data deal


----------



## jayeola (Jul 1, 2009)

I'm with O2 an an unlimited data tarrif. Can't fault it.
/dev/nokiae71


----------



## sumimasen (Jul 1, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> I don't care either - as long as it has a reasonably priced UNLIMITED data deal



Of course it will be.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2009)

According to the Guardian, it's O2 for the Pre: 





> American gadget group Palm will next week confirm that it has signed a deal with O2 which will see the mobile phone network become the exclusive UK partner for its eagerly awaited Palm Pre handset.
> 
> The Pre, which went on sale in the US last month, has been tipped as the most viable alternative yet produced to the iPhone. The new version of the Apple device – the iPhone 3GS – went on sale less than two weeks ago and a million were snapped up in the first three days.
> 
> ...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jul 2, 2009)

Why do manufactures have to have network exclusives? What do they gain from it? I see the attraction to the networks as the right handset could be a powerful tool to make people switch networks, but do they pay the manufactures more money or something?


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2009)

I posted this elsewhere, but I'm well chuffed to discover that that it's now possible to sync the fantastic Bonsai outliner/to-do desktop app with the Palm Pre. It's an awesome program and I'm yet to see anything as good on any platform - which means I'm even more sold on the Pre  
http://www.natarasoftware.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6840


----------



## g force (Jul 2, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> Why do manufactures have to have network exclusives? What do they gain from it? I see the attraction to the networks as the right handset could be a powerful tool to make people switch networks, but do they pay the manufactures more money or something?



Is the EU still looking at it re: iPhone deals across Europe as a restrictive practice? Sadly 02 makes the Pre a no-no for me....be nice to have a killer smartphone but if the phone part doesn't work due to shit coverage in my home it makes it sort of pointless. Shame.


----------



## Callum91 (Jul 2, 2009)

In think the Pre would have been better on Orange. Orange is the only network to lack a '' must have phone '' , O2 now have 2!


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jul 2, 2009)

g force said:


> Is the EU still looking at it re: iPhone deals across Europe as a restrictive practice? Sadly 02 makes the Pre a no-no for me....be nice to have a killer smartphone but if the phone part doesn't work due to shit coverage in my home it makes it sort of pointless. Shame.



Same for me as well, Orange is the only network that works where I live. I could buy outright and get a sim only contract, but its a much more expensive way to buy a new smartphone.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2009)

I don't think it's healthy for O2 to have two of the hottest smartphones around, but after fifteen years (or thereabouts) with T-Mobile I'm happy to be shot of them.


----------



## Sunray (Jul 3, 2009)

editor said:


> I don't think it's healthy for O2 to have two of the hottest smartphones around, but after fifteen years (or thereabouts) with T-Mobile I'm happy to be shot of them.



I've been unhappy with exclusivity contracts from the start.  Its hardly competitive but why isn't so clear cut so its avoided any real inspection.

Expect remarkably similar contracts to the iPhone.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2009)

If Orange or Vodafone had won the contract, consumers could have benefited from a pricing war, but O2 now have zero incentive to price the Pre competitively.


----------



## sumimasen (Jul 3, 2009)

2 of the most hyped phones exclusive to one network provider?  Worthy of an investigation.


----------



## Sunray (Jul 3, 2009)

The argument put forward by the operators is that there are similar models available on other networks.

If you compare features then there are, saying that the Apple or Palm UI is superior or that MOSX or WebOS makes them entirely unique devices is clearly a subjective argument.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2009)

In this comprehensive 'deathmatch' against the iPhone, Computerworld makes it a very close call.





> The overall winner is ...
> 
> The Pre is a surprisingly strong competitor to the groundbreaking iPhone. RIM’s efforts to compete with the iPhone have been uninspiring; the Google Android platform turned out to be a weak competitor, too wrapped up in Google’s offerings to the exclusion of the business world; and Microsoft has been AWOL.
> 
> ...


----------



## sumimasen (Jul 6, 2009)

If I'm not mistaken Palm are holding a press briefing tomorrow to announce the UK's release date.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 6, 2009)

Apparently so...be interesting if they announce prices...


----------



## sumimasen (Jul 7, 2009)

Let's see who can guess the pricing, bragging smug smartarse rights to the closest one. I'm going for:

Handset - £235
Contract - £35 per month for 18 months
Deal - 600 minutes, 500 texts, unlimited fair usage data


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 7, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Let's see who can guess the pricing, bragging smug smartarse rights to the closest one. I'm going for:
> 
> Handset - £235
> Contract - £35 per month for 18 months
> Deal - 600 minutes, 500 texts, unlimited fair usage data



I can see most of that but the unit costing £199...


----------



## Callum91 (Jul 7, 2009)

£199 seems abit cheap imo.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2009)

No pricing today, just confirmation of the O2 deal. What 'holidays'? Summer? Christmas?  (I think we're looking at the start of Q4).



> Availability and Pricing
> 
> Palm Pre is scheduled to be available initially in the UK, Ireland and Germany exclusively on the O2 network, and in Spain exclusively on the Movistar network, in time for the holidays. Pricing for the phone has not yet been determined.
> 
> ...


----------



## sumimasen (Jul 7, 2009)

Sigh. 

No pricing yet, but sign up to register your interest. The more people that sign up, the more we can factor just how high we can charge you.


----------



## sumimasen (Jul 7, 2009)

KE I originally thought £199 would be a reasonable price but when you factor in the ludicrous prices of the two 3GS models, I suspect o2 will price the Pre between these iPhones.


----------



## Sunray (Jul 7, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> KE I originally thought £199 would be a reasonable price but when you factor in the ludicrous prices of the two 3GS models, I suspect o2 will price the Pre between these iPhones.



???

What are you talking about.  If they stick it at 199 on contract its more expensive than the *16Gb*3GS which is only 184 quid.

I am very curious to see how they position the contract and price.  If its cheaper in _any way_ I for one am bleating like wounded lamb.

Own goal for Palm IMO. Should have at least sold it to a competitor to O2, all are desperate to have some competition to the iPhone.  They would have marketed it much harder than O2 need to do?  I mean of late you'd be forgive for thinking that O2 shops just sell iPhones the way their window displays have been for the last 2 years.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 7, 2009)

Yep I agree not a great move by Palm at all...


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yep I agree not a great move by Palm at all...


Without knowing the proposed pricing, the deal that Palm negotiated, or the advertising budget and marketing push that O2 have pledged to commit, I'm not entirely sure how you can reach that conclusion.


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2009)

Nissing Sync is now out for Pre/Mac users.


> Mark/Space, creator of award-winning desktop and handheld synchronization software, announced immediate availability of Release 1.0 of The Missing Sync for Palm Pre, for Mac. Synchronize contacts, calendars, music, ringtones, photos and more between a Mac and the new Palm Pre phone. And, a Windows Vista and Windows XP version is in development.
> 
> The Missing Sync for Palm Pre makes your Pre and Mac close companions.
> 
> ...


----------



## jæd (Jul 8, 2009)

editor said:


> Without knowing the proposed pricing, the deal that Palm negotiated, or the advertising budget and marketing push that O2 have pledged to commit, I'm not entirely sure how you can reach that conclusion.



Because it only has 8 Gb and in December "the holidays", five and a half months away, thats going to start looking small... Please, Palm either introduce a 16 Gb model or get a memory card holder...!


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 8, 2009)

oh I wish they would just get on with it
my centro died last night and I have now gone back to the treo 650
how long am I going to have to wait??

I hate feeling forced to the front of the queue to beg for whatever crappy uncompetitive deal o2 deign to offer..gah

(the centro is doing this mad thing of dying whenever it goes to sleep..it did it a few months ago and then fixed itself mysteriously..and now it keeps randomly trying to synch when not asked..and then dying)


----------



## sumimasen (Jul 8, 2009)

Sunray said:


> ???
> 
> What are you talking about.  If they stick it at 199 on contract its more expensive than the *16Gb*3GS which is only 184 quid.
> 
> ...



3G 8GB - £96.89
3GS 16GB - £184.98
3GS 32 GB - £274.23

You think the Pre will be positioned closer to iPhone's second best model rather than their top model?  Wishful thinking. o2 aren't that generous.


----------



## Sunray (Jul 8, 2009)

If they have any sense and want it to sell, it will be 99 quid on a 35pcm, 18 month contract.

The editor and who ever can bang on about how fantastic it all is but this quote is bang on 



> For one thing, the two devices will be competing for the same customers. For another, the Iphone is more than a mere poster child for applications on phones and handset integration with the web: it's the benchmark,


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2009)

Sunray said:


> If they have any sense and want it to sell, it will be 99 quid on a 35pcm, 18 month contract.
> 
> The editor and who ever can bang on about how fantastic it all is but this quote is bang on


Err... and where does this quote come from? Does the author already know the UK pricing? If there's a big price differential, then they clearly won't be competing for the same customers in all areas.

He's right about the Apple's benchmark qualities, but when it comes to multi tasking  and contact management, Palm is currently miles ahead of Apple, and for some people (read: me) that's more important than 50,000 apps, many of which are utterly flippant and heavily duplicated (and distributed through a moralistic, monopolistic outlet).


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 8, 2009)

Sunray said:


> If they have any sense and want it to sell, it will be 99 quid on a 35pcm, 18 month contract.
> 
> The editor and who ever can bang on about how fantastic it all is but this quote is bang on



That quote is spot on, and also the comment earlier about O2 shops basically looking like iPhone stores...like I said Palm didn't really do a good job letting this go to O2, it can't compete with the iPhone on that network...


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That quote is spot on, and also the comment earlier about O2 shops basically looking like iPhone stores...


Err, the O2 stores sell shedloads of other phones, you know, and not every punter shares your enthusiasm for the iPhone either.

Regardless of what posters are in store windows, they reality is that most of their business comes from selling other makes of phone.


----------



## jæd (Jul 8, 2009)

Sunray said:


> If they have any sense and want it to sell, it will be 99 quid on a 35pcm, 18 month contract.
> 
> The editor and who ever can bang on about how fantastic it all is but this quote is bang on



Quote is from http://www.telecomasia.net/article.php?id_article=14111

I'd disagree slightly. The Pre is for people who want a cheap smart-phone. The iPhone is for people with more $$$$ who want an all-singing and dancing gizmo which does stuff well. O2 has done well to bag both ends of the market. (And Nokia is for people who want feature-phones)


----------



## jæd (Jul 8, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That quote is spot on, and also the comment earlier about O2 shops basically looking like iPhone stores...like I said Palm didn't really do a good job letting this go to O2, it can't compete with the iPhone on that network...



Perhaps O2 will get giant models of the Pre to put in their windows...?


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2009)

jæd said:


> Quote is from http://www.telecomasia.net/article.php?id_article=14111


That writer hasn't actually ever touched or used a Pre, but I'd go along with his conclusion: 





> Simplicity may be on the Pre’s side. While Linux-based, webOS development is centered on HTML5 and JavaScript and is therefore already well understood by web developers. But what chance has Palm of rallying the great and the good of application and content developers (as well as the masses) to webOS when even Nokia is struggling to keep them onside?
> 
> Developer support, as much as an ingenious user experience, will make or break these high-end device offerings going forward.


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2009)

There may not be two zillion programs and 500 fart apps in the Palm app store, but there's certainly some high quality apps coming through - and it looks like the Pre may come with the BBC iPlayer pre-installed (although the article is woefully vague). There will be, however, UK-specific apps loaded on the phone.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology/2009/07/07/palm-pre-to-get-bbc-iplayer-115875-21502178/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 8, 2009)

editor said:


> Err, the O2 stores sell shedloads of other phones, you know, and not every punter shares your enthusiasm for the iPhone either.
> 
> Regardless of what posters are in store windows, they reality is that most of their business comes from selling other makes of phone.



Yes and the front window is what draws people inside, and it's iPhone, iPhone, iPhone! Palm are fucked if they think they can compete with that!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 8, 2009)

jæd said:


> Perhaps O2 will get giant models of the Pre to put in their windows...?



Yeah running a video of the Ed telling everyone that iPhone owners are no different from baby killers...


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yes and the front window is what draws people inside, and it's iPhone, iPhone, iPhone! Palm are fucked if they think they can compete with that!


Yes, they are there now, but have you got a magic time machine that shows you what their shopfronts will look like in a few months time, then?



Kid_Eternity said:


> Yeah running a video of the Ed telling everyone that iPhone owners are no different from baby killers...


Hilarious!


----------



## jæd (Jul 8, 2009)

editor said:


> There may not be two zillion programs and 500 fart apps in the Palm app store, but there's certainly some high quality apps coming through - and it looks like the Pre may come with the BBC iPlayer pre-installed (although the article is woefully vague). There will be, however, UK-specific apps loaded on the phone.
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology/2009/07/07/palm-pre-to-get-bbc-iplayer-115875-21502178/



I would guess it would be like the iPhone's, where clicking on iPlayer links on the Beeb spawns a mp4 stream. Much easier and faster to implement. (However they could use the TvGuide.Uk iPhone App as a model which gives direct links to iPlayer...)


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2009)

jæd said:


> I would guess it would be like the iPhone's, where clicking on iPlayer links on the Beeb spawns a mp4 stream. Much easier and faster to implement. (However they could use the TvGuide.Uk iPhone App as a model which gives direct links to iPlayer...)


The unofficial one on the G1 works very well indeed - I usually watch a bit of tele on it before crashing out at night.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 8, 2009)

sorry but I'm baffled - which "holidays" will the Pre be ready for?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 8, 2009)

editor said:


> Yes, they are there now, but have you got a magic time machine that shows you what their shopfronts will look like in a few months time, then?
> 
> Hilarious!



Oh dear your Palm masturbation fantasy knows no bounds! Do you really think they are gonna take em all down just because the Pre is coming out? 

Or do you have your tin foil hat on and believe they'll be replaced by massive Pres!


----------



## Sunray (Jul 8, 2009)

I kinda hope they do, I'd be right in there asking what they were doing with them.  Those huge iphones would make quite a kitsch table for the front room.


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Oh dear your Palm masturbation fantasy knows no bounds! Do you really think they are gonna take em all down just because the Pre is coming out?
> 
> Or do you have your tin foil hat on and believe they'll be replaced by massive Pres!


I haven't made any such claim, although I'd suggest that O2 clearly has good reasons to aggressively promote the Pre and that agreed marketing budgets probably proved a factor in persuading Palm to go with the company.

Btw, I've no idea why you're being so sneery and going on about "masturbation fantasies", but I'd be really grateful if you stopped.


----------



## sumimasen (Jul 9, 2009)

Actually there may be a way to ballpark how much the Pre could cost. See what the prices are for both the Pre and iPhone in the US. Factor in some 'Rip-Off Britain' plus a few extra quid for the fact that these phones aren't on competing networks like they are in the US, and there you go.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Actually there may be a way to ballpark how much the Pre could cost. See what the prices are for both the Pre and iPhone in the US. Factor in some 'Rip-Off Britain' plus a few extra quid for the fact that these phones aren't on competing networks like they are in the US, and there you go.


If O2 sell the Pre at the same price as the iPhone, it's going to really struggle, but put in enough of a price advantage - say £50 minimum - and back it up with some decent advertising and it could prove a tempting alternative.

The Pre continues to attract tons of positive press  - it's in the Guardian yesterday and was in the London Lite yesterday  - so it's certainly got a head start over a lot of other smartphones coming through.

I just wish they'd fucking hurry up and get the thing out.


----------



## Callum91 (Jul 9, 2009)

Isn't the build quality on the Pre abit iffy?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 9, 2009)

From what I've read it is, cracks in screen, creaky plasticky feel etc...


----------



## Callum91 (Jul 9, 2009)

Tbh , you really can't fault Apple for the build quality of the iPhone , it's the most solid gadget I've ever seen.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2009)

Callum91 said:


> Isn't the build quality on the Pre abit iffy?


There's certainly been some complaints (not unexpected for a totally new design) but most reviews have put the standard of construction as being reasonably good for the price/features. It's certainly not up to iPhone's stellar standards, but then it costs less and not many companies have their budget/bargaining clout.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 9, 2009)

Callum91 said:


> Tbh , you really can't fault Apple for the build quality of the iPhone , it's the most solid gadget I've ever seen.



It also feels it too, it doesn't feel cheap and plasticky (Palm Centro I'm looking at you), no creaking bits or anything...


----------



## Callum91 (Jul 9, 2009)

Until the Pre's build quality issues are properly sorted I wouldn't even consider buying one , the last thing I want to be doing is sending my phone back every few weeks.


----------



## Sunray (Jul 9, 2009)

The odd report of a crack screen or plastic feel does not mean that is going to happen.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2009)

Callum91;9388924]Until the Pre's build quality issues are properly sorted I wouldn't even consider buying one  said:


> It also feels it too, it doesn't feel cheap and plasticky (Palm Centro I'm looking at you), no creaking bits or anything...


I don't think _any_ phone can match the iPhone for sheer build quality, but it's hardly the most important thing for most people (I don't recall you regularly going on about the Centro's build quality either). 

So long as it's robust enough to stand up to my daily use, that's good enough for me. Just about any phone with slide out components is going to have some play in it anyway. It's not a big deal.





Sunray said:


> The odd report of a crack screen or plastic feel does not mean that is going to happen.


Indeed. Even Apple's products aren't immune to similar problems from time to time.


----------



## Callum91 (Jul 9, 2009)

I mean't that I personally wouldn't buy one , creaks and squeeks on phones and such annoy the fuck out of me.


----------



## Sunray (Jul 9, 2009)

Callum91 said:


> I mean't that I personally wouldn't buy one , creaks and squeeks on phones and such annoy the fuck out of me.



I think your barrier to entry is daft.


----------



## Callum91 (Jul 9, 2009)

Personal preference isn't it , you might like the pre , I don't.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2009)

editor said:


> I think you're over reacting slightly. The problem is nowhere near as bad as you seem to be making out, and most of the issues reported seem to have been with the early production run. There seems to be a lot of satisfied customers on the web. I don't think _any_ phone can match the iPhone for sheer build quality, but it's hardly the most important thing for most people (I don't recall you regularly going on about the Centro's build quality either).
> 
> So long as it's robust enough to stand up to my daily use, that's good enough for me. Just about any phone with slide out components is going to have some play in it anyway. It's not a big deal.Indeed. Even Apple's products aren't immune to similar problems from time to time.



Yeah that's because the shitty battery life was more a issue, fucking phone didn't even last a year either which tells you a lot about Palms commitment to quality...


----------



## Sunray (Jul 10, 2009)

Callum91 said:


> Personal preference isn't it , you might like the pre , I don't.



You've owned one?


----------



## Callum91 (Jul 10, 2009)

I don't like the look of the Pre and I can't see myself buying one . I have a perfectly good Blackberry 8900 and an iPod touch , the Pre isn't even on my radar.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2009)

Callum91;9389447]Personal preference isn't it  said:


> Yeah that's because the shitty battery life was more a issue, fucking phone didn't even last a year either which tells you a lot about Palms commitment to quality...


Actually, it says more about your _personal_ experience with _one_ handset. 

My Treo 650 lasted 3 years of heavy use and is still going strong, as is my Centro. C'est la vie.


Callum91 said:


> I don't like the look of the Pre and I can't see myself buying one . I have a perfectly good Blackberry 8900 and an iPod touch , the Pre isn't even on my radar.


Jolly good. I guess you haven't much else to add to this thread now then.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 10, 2009)

editor said:


> You've never even _seen_ one, let alone used one, have you? Actually, it says more about your _personal_ experience with _one_ handset.
> 
> My Treo 650 lasted 3 years of heavy use and is still going strong, as is my Centro. C'est la vie.
> Jolly good. I guess you haven't much else to add to this thread now then.



I wouldn't say so, I was a member of plenty of Palm forums in the last year and plenty of people bitched about the quality of the build and the crap batter. It wasn't a minority experience.


----------



## editor (Jul 11, 2009)

Here's an interesting article: 





> Apple iPhone 3GS vs. Palm Pre: In Real Life
> 
> *"It's nice to have a real, physical keyboard again. Didn't realize how much I missed it. (Sorry, 3GS.)" *
> The Pre's keyboard is one of the biggest things in Palm's favor right now. The 3GS's speed makes typing on the screen a whole lot quicker and easier than it has been on past iPhones, but my thumbs need more physical feedback.
> ...


Pre's are still shifting 40,000 units a week in the US, despite stock shortages and here's an absolute beast of a charger!






http://store.palm.com/product/index...alm+Pre&pg=2&parentPage=family&catsId=3238806


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 12, 2009)

to answer my own question..

the pre will be available in the UK in time for Christmas

http://shop.o2.co.uk/update/palmpre.html

which is fugging annoying considering my Centro has now totally broken

have been forced back to an old Treo... retro brick feeling!


----------



## editor (Jul 12, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> to answer my own question..
> 
> the pre will be available in the UK in time for Christmas
> 
> ...


Palm have been saying 'before the holidays' but a few pundits seem to think it may be a fair bit earlier than that, with September being floated around quite a bit. It looks like it'll be coming with quite a few UK-specific apps pre installed too.

Isn't your Centro still under warranty? Have you tried a hard reset?

After a few months with the G1, I'm still looking keenly to the Pre - the fact that it can run all my old apps and - huzzah! - now sync with the super Bonsai means there's nothing else out there that looks a better fit for me.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 12, 2009)

I'd be grateful if you have any suggestions for hard resetting an evil centro... every time I put the battery in it the screen stays blank and the red light appears on the case..so it makes no difference if I press the on button or not


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 12, 2009)

I'd love to think that Sept is possible..but when the official o2 site says this:

"Palm Pre will only be available on O2. You'll be able to buy online, through O2 shops and over the phone in time for Christmas." 

then I'm assuming Christmas Eve..on Oxford Street, one store only


----------



## editor (Jul 12, 2009)

Do you keep the phone plugged in for a while before trying to start it? If there's no charge (i.e. the charging light is red) it won't start. 

Try taking the battery out and seeing if you can start it that way. Otherwise, do a hard reset, take out the battery, wait 45 seconds then put it back in and then turn it back on.

How to hard reset: 





> 1. Remove the battery from the rear of the unit.
> 
> 2. Hold down the power button while reinserting the battery.
> 
> ...


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 12, 2009)

thanks....I have tried all of the above - promise - including all varieties of pluuged in and not

whatever I do..all I get is red light on insertion of battery

once it did reboot..then went in to a perma hotsynch loop....then died


----------



## editor (Jul 12, 2009)

A long shot: have you checked that the display brightness isn't set to zero?
Also, try taking the battery out and rubbing the connectors with toothbrush and alcohol. It seems to have done the job for a few folks.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 12, 2009)

thanks - have tried the brightness thingy but will now try the alcohol - cheers

I just wish there was a HARDER hard reset button somehwre


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 12, 2009)

It was a cool little phone for a while but a cheap one nonetheless...


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2009)

Here's a review of the Classic Palm OS Emulator app. 

Basically, just about all your old Palm OS apps will work fine, although desktop data hotsync won't work for most apps yet (there's already workarounds for the superb Bonsai).  Original registrations work, so I'll have a ton of apps to install!

http://www.precentral.net/review-classic-palm-os-emulator-motionapps


----------



## jæd (Jul 14, 2009)

editor said:


> Here's a review of the Classic Palm OS Emulator app.
> 
> Basically, just about all your old Palm OS apps will work fine, although desktop data hotsync won't work for most apps yet (there's already workarounds for the superb Bonsai).  Original registrations work, so I'll have a ton of apps to install!
> 
> http://www.precentral.net/review-classic-palm-os-emulator-motionapps



Its $29.99...? It wasn't included by default...? They must be kidding...! https://www.motionapps.com/classic/buy/  Unless you have a ton of Apps then it surely it will be cheaper just to buy new App from the Palm App store when they are available. 

Thinking back to the Apps I used on my old Treo 650 I think I probably would splash for this...


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 14, 2009)

2 things that makes me tend towards the iPhone right now is that a) it's available and b) it can Skype right now

I make a LOT of calls to Gerbilly and Skype would save me a lot


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> 2 things that makes me tend towards the iPhone right now is that a) it's available and b) it can Skype right nowt


You can use Skype on a lot of other phones and - if I recall correctly - you can only make a Skype call on an iPhone if you're connected to Wi-Fi - so it's no good if you're out and about.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article6005428.ece

There's always the Skypephone which is pretty cheap; http://www.three.co.uk/Mobiles/3_Skypephone


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 14, 2009)

thanks Ed...am hoping by the time the Pre comes out there will be a skype app for it

sadly yes it looks like it is always going to be wifi only grrr


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> thanks Ed...am hoping by the time the Pre comes out there will be a skype app for it
> 
> sadly yes it looks like it is always going to be wifi only grrr


You could get a netbook and use that for Skype....


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 14, 2009)

yeah am thinking I might do that netbook thing if I do any more big travels

just wish mac wd make me a netbook...sigh

but really I was hoping to find a smartphone that would allow me to leave the lappy/netbook AT HOME at last


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2009)

It's always a compromise: my Android phone can take the place of a laptop for short trips, but after a day or two you'll be begging for a proper keyboard and adecent sized screen. 

I took my Asus Eee netbook to NYC instead of my usual laptop and was really glad I did. It was light and sturdy enough to shove in my bag and the battery life was excellent - and I was able to back up all my photos.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 14, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> yeah am thinking I might do that netbook thing if I do any more big travels
> 
> just wish mac wd make me a netbook...sigh
> 
> but really I was hoping to find a smartphone that would allow me to leave the lappy/netbook AT HOME at last



The iPhone has meant I use my laptop a lot less. It's great!


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> The iPhone has meant I use my laptop a lot less. It's great!


It's the same for most smartphone users on all platforms  - myself included -  but that's not going to help Piers who wants to make Skype calls on 3G. The iPhone doesn't allow that, as Skype calls are restricted to wi-fi only.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 14, 2009)

editor said:


> It's the same for most smartphone users on all platforms  - myself included -  but that's not going to help Piers who wants to make Skype calls on 3G. The iPhone doesn't allow that, as Skype calls are restricted to wi-fi only.



That's just one thing he was talking about though, there's plenty of other ways it helps. Also, I rarely have problems finding a wifi hotspot and with free access to over 5000 of them I reckon it's not that big a deal.


----------



## jæd (Jul 14, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That's just one thing he was talking about though, there's plenty of other ways it helps. Also, I rarely have problems finding a wifi hotspot and with free access to over 5000 of them I reckon it's not that big a deal.



Will the Pre have the same access to the O2 Wireless hot-spots the iPhone does...?


----------



## jæd (Jul 14, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> yeah am thinking I might do that netbook thing if I do any more big travels
> 
> just wish mac wd make me a netbook...sigh
> 
> but really I was hoping to find a smartphone that would allow me to leave the lappy/netbook AT HOME at last



Might be one coming out in October : http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2...ina-suggests-800-itablet-coming-this-fall.ars . Alternativly you can install OS X on Dell netbooks, apparently.


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2009)

jæd said:


> Will the Pre have the same access to the O2 Wireless hot-spots the iPhone does...?


I'd say that's quite likely unless the Pre sells for a lot cheaper than the iPhone.


jæd said:


> Might be one coming out in October : http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2...ina-suggests-800-itablet-coming-this-fall.ars . Alternativly you can install OS X on Dell netbooks, apparently.


I wouldn't hold my breath on that one arriving in October, although I've been banging on for ages that Apple are missing out by not having a netbook-style device.

Thing is, I like the fact that my netbook was cheap - as soon as prices start sailing past £400-500 (that reports cites a very pricey $800), I'm going to start treating the thing a bit more preciously - and for me the whole point of a netbook is that it's a small, cheap, light laptop you can shove in your bag and carry everywhere.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 14, 2009)

I agree Editor..I think sadly if I want a sub 200 quid device it is NEVER going to be Mac


----------



## Sunray (Jul 14, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That's just one thing he was talking about though, there's plenty of other ways it helps. Also, I rarely have problems finding a wifi hotspot and with free access to over 5000 of them I reckon it's not that big a deal.



Yup, how far are we away from a McDonalds, Starbucks and a Pret.  

In C London, wifi is nearly 100% guaranteed.


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Yup, how far are we away from a McDonalds, Starbucks and a Pret. .


Sadly, all ghastly places to be around though.


----------



## Sunray (Jul 14, 2009)

Don't have to go into them to get a signal.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 14, 2009)

but don't you have to buy a coffee to get the log in password?


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Don't have to go into them to get a signal.


I can't say I'd want to hang around outside a McDonalds with an expensive phone in my hand, given the choice.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2009)

The Pre's camera looks plenty good enough if this guy's (nearly 2k+!) photos are anything to go by:





http://picasaweb.google.com/tlopezjr


----------



## Sunray (Jul 15, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> but don't you have to buy a coffee to get the log in password?



No, if you get the iPhone contract, which I can imagine will be very similar to the Pre contract, you get the BT Openzone and Cloud Wifi networks thrown in free.

Just need to register once with your mobile number and its automatic after that unless you master reset the phone.  These are all in McD's, Pret and Starbuck, all the major train stations and a load of other places.  Just need to use google maps to find them.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2009)

Sunray said:


> No, if you get the iPhone contract, which I can imagine will be very similar to the Pre contract, you get the BT Openzone and Cloud Wifi networks thrown in free.
> 
> Just need to register once with your mobile number and its automatic after that unless you master reset the phone.  These are all in McD's, Pret and Starbuck, all the major train stations and a load of other places.  Just need to use google maps to find them.


As an aside, when I had my Centro I used to glance enviously at people with wi-fi connected phones, but since getting my G1 phone, I've barely used wi-fi (even when it's available) because it's less hassle - and almost as fast - to stick with 3G. 

I do use it to watch the odd BBC iPlayer program when I'm in bed, but it's nowhere as essential as I thought it might be. Obviously for Piers it's a different story, but if he really needs always-on Skype connectivity, a Palm Pre or an iPhone are unlikely to fulfil that need.


----------



## Sunray (Jul 15, 2009)

The iPhone will seamlessly switch to a BTOpenzone or Cloud network if its in range once you have registered on them,  don't have to do anything, its quite a bit faster to access the net, O2 3G is patchy for good speed. Sometimes its HSDPA wifi like speed, other times its like 56k modem speeds. 

Main issue I've found, esp at stations, the router is often borked, so it switches to wifi network and essentially cuts you off, forcing you to switch off wifi.


----------



## jæd (Jul 15, 2009)

Sunray said:


> The iPhone will seamlessly switch to a BTOpenzone or Cloud network if its in range once you have registered on them,  don't have to do anything, its quite a bit faster to access the net, O2 3G is patchy for good speed. Sometimes its HSDPA wifi like speed, other times its like 56k modem speeds.



I usually have wifi off, and if I want to do something just flip it on and have a quick sniff for a network. It only takes two seconds to do and may make my like network requests quicker...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 15, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> but don't you have to buy a coffee to get the log in password?



Not if you're logging on via the cloud wifi net. Sounds like the iPhone might be  worth consideration for you.


----------



## g force (Jul 15, 2009)

So our head of IT has one already, although Palm clearly sent a US handset as it has some pre-loaded Sprint stuff on it. We're trialling it (despite being a RIM client on Vodafone). I got to have a play for about 5 minutes and from what I've seen overall I was impressed - nice clean interface, cards system was great, screen is very good - miles ahead of RIM on that count and definitely on par with the iPhone.

Minor quibbles would be that when 'opening' the phone the slide action isn't great, very 'juddery', felt I was going to break the damn thing. The handset does feel kinda cheap as reviews have mentioned (to my mind so does the G1) - the plastics seem similar to the type used on the battery cover of my current BB. I also preferred the 'in hand' feel of the BB Curve, again though that's my preference and I do have small hands  

That said one complaint in some reviews I've seen has been the keyboard. IMO it's pretty good and old Palm users will like it...yes the top row is a little cramped but it's really not a deal breaker. I prefer physical keypads for writing lengthy emails so for me the Pre is already ahead of the iPhone, but the key 'feel' wasn't anywhere near as good as the BB Curve.

So in summary of my brief experience - a very nice looking handset with a lovely display and will make a great phone. But it's not IMO (although to be fair it isn't Palm's target market) going to trouble RIM in the corporate market so I doubt we'll be getting them!


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2009)

Sunray said:


> The iPhone will seamlessly switch to a BTOpenzone or Cloud network if its in range once you have registered on them,  don't have to do anything, its quite a bit faster to access the net, O2 3G is patchy for good speed. Sometimes its HSDPA wifi like speed, other times its like 56k modem speeds.


Problem is that you have to keep your wi-fi turned on for that to happen, and that's going to impact on battery life. I turned off the wi-fi by default on my G1 for that reason.

*casts envious looks at g force.


----------



## Sunray (Jul 15, 2009)

I've not really noticed much of a difference on or off tbf, get 1-1/2 to 2 days generally, and I like the convenience.


----------



## Sunray (Jul 15, 2009)

g force said:


> So our head of IT has one already, although Palm clearly sent a US handset as it has some pre-loaded Sprint stuff on it. We're trialling it (despite being a RIM client on Vodafone). I got to have a play for about 5 minutes and from what I've seen overall I was impressed - nice clean interface, cards system was great, screen is very good - miles ahead of RIM on that count and definitely on par with the iPhone.
> 
> Minor quibbles would be that when 'opening' the phone the slide action isn't great, very 'juddery', felt I was going to break the damn thing. The handset does feel kinda cheap as reviews have mentioned (to my mind so does the G1) - the plastics seem similar to the type used on the battery cover of my current BB. I also preferred the 'in hand' feel of the BB Curve, again though that's my preference and I do have small hands
> 
> ...



I've always thought the G1 was a pretty solid bit of kit.


----------



## g force (Jul 15, 2009)

The G1 I used felt cheap - ie the materials seemed pretty poor. 

I was really impressed by the Pre I have to say, even for the short time I played around with it - didn't dig into the OS too much etc but on first impressions it's a great phone. I'd sonsider getting one for personal use were it not for the 02 exclusivity.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2009)

g force said:


> I was really impressed by the Pre I have to say, even for the short time I played around with it - didn't dig into the OS too much etc but on first impressions it's a great phone. I'd sonsider getting one for personal use were it not for the 02 exclusivity.


Good to hear seeing as I'm holding out for the ruddy thing! First impressions are important for new phones, so it looks like Palm are off to a good start.


----------



## g force (Jul 15, 2009)

Definitely worth it IMO now I've had a look in person. It also bodes well I think for people trying it in store - you can see pretty quickly what it does and how it does it. The screen is amazingly crisp  and the design is very neat so I reckon they're on to an winner.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2009)

Interesting post about 'homebrew' apps on PreCentral:


> There can be no better example of the difference in philosophy between Apple and Palm than in the environment for homebrew apps. For iPhone developers, Apple's year-long delay in launching its App Store, and its rigid control over what apps may (and can) be installed on the iPhone, have led to an underground developer community, a back-and-forth battle between those "jailbreaking" the iPhone to allow 3rd party apps and Apple's OS updates to break the breaking, and a high barrier to entry for any developer who wishes to legitimately distribute its application.
> 
> Contrast that with Palm, whose tradition of openness to 3rd party applications goes back to the earliest days of the PalmOS. While Apple chose a proprietary Unix basis for its iPhone OSX, Palm went with open-source Linux, and even though Palm has been releasing the SDK quite slowly as it ramps up its developer support structure, it has supported the OS exploration of pre dev wiki, and permitted (and had its moderators participate in) threads about homebrew apps on the official Palm user forum.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2009)

Now, this is great  news for long time Palm users - full hotsync for old apps will soon be available. Nice. 

http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/6817/hotsync-coming-to-classic/


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2009)

Palm has now made the Mojo SDK beta and docs publicly available. 



> After a successful early access program, Palm’s Mojo Software Development Kit is available to all interested app developers. The SDK can be downloaded from a new developer portal -- Palm webOSdev -- at developer.palm.com. Any interested developer with a valid email address can access the SDK, its associated documentation, and new Mojo developer forums.
> 
> The initial response to Palm webOS apps -- from both developers and customers -- has been enthusiastic. Even in its initial beta stage, over 1.8 million apps have been downloaded from the beta App Catalog since Palm Pre was released less than six weeks ago. Thousands of developers have participated in the Mojo SDK early access program since it began in early April. New applications are in the pipeline for the Palm App Catalog, and the App Catalog submission process will be opened to all developers beginning this fall.
> 
> http://blog.palm.com/palm/2009/07/mojo-sdk-available-to-all-.html


Palm developer portal: http://developer.palm.com/


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Jul 16, 2009)

ok..my centro has come back from the dead. That is so weird. It's almost like a metaphor for Palm itself.

have now hard reset it and will see what happens after I restore all my data. what a saga.


----------



## editor (Jul 24, 2009)

CNet ran a iPhone 3G3 vs Palm Pre 'prizefight' which saw Apple's all-conquering  only managing to win by the tiniest of margins - just 0.6 per cent. Not bad for a brand new phone that's been pitted against a third generation phone from one of the biggest tech companies so the planet!



> In what could possibly be the closest cell phone Prizefight in CNET history, the Apple iPhone 3GS just narrowly beat out the Palm Pre. Both smartphones won one round each and tied in the others, so we had to break down the overall score to the nearest one hundredth of a point and the iPhone snuck by with a mere 0.06-point lead to remain the reigning champ. However, the Pre shouldn't feel bad. To come that close to beating the iPhone as a first-generation device speaks volumes about the smartphone's capabilities. In the end, though, it's really the consumer who wins. You have two great touch-screen smartphones to choose from, both of which have redefined how we use and what we expect from mobile devices, and with such heated competition, we can only imagine what's to come.



http://reviews.cnet.com/4370-6454_7-850-101.html?tag=mid_container;pf_left_nav


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## Kid_Eternity (Jul 24, 2009)

I tend not to bother taking those things seriously anymore, that said that one is bullshit, there's no way the Pre draws with the iPhone on sexiness terms! The iPhone pisses on the Pre from a great height in terms of looks.


----------



## editor (Jul 25, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I tend not to bother taking those things seriously anymore, that said that one is bullshit, there's no way the Pre draws with the iPhone on sexiness terms! The iPhone pisses on the Pre from a great height in terms of looks.


I would have thought that getting to see and handle BOTH the phones would have given you a rather more informed and balanced  opinion myself.

Not that I ever go along with the notion of "sexiness" in a gadget.


----------



## editor (Jul 26, 2009)

The Pre has dropped to a hugely competitive $99 in the States, while PC World thinks that webOS is the most open mobile platform on the market. 

http://www.pcworld.com/article/169039/palm_pre_is_the_most_open_mobile_platform_on_the_market.html


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 26, 2009)

You see nothing wrong with a two year contract I take it?


----------



## editor (Jul 26, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> You see nothing wrong with a two year contract I take it?


I see a lot wrong with it, but Americans don't seem to have such a problem with long contracts - hence the price cut is significant in that context. £60 is very cheap for such a cutting edge smartphone.


----------



## jæd (Jul 27, 2009)

editor said:


> The Pre has dropped to a hugely competitive $99 in the States, while PC World thinks that webOS is the most open mobile platform on the market.
> 
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/169039/palm_pre_is_the_most_open_mobile_platform_on_the_market.html



I'd be interested in their follow up articles as this one managed to gloss over the limitations in their current SDK. (No low-level networking, no low-level graphics manipulation, no-level file io...). Compared to Android and the iPhone it's not so open... They promise further articles so hopefully they will answer it there...


----------



## editor (Jul 27, 2009)

I can't wait to get a piece of this action:


> ​ While Palm is busily engaged in a game of domination with Apple to see which one can keep iTunes sync working or broken the longest, the Pre homebrew community hasn't been sitting idle, introducing two new and painless ways to get homemade software up in your handset. The first is a desktop app called WebOS Quick Install that works on Mac, PC, and Linux, allowing installation with just a drag, a drop, and a click. The other is called fileCoaster, enabling users to download and install IPKs right on the phone itself, plus other files too. Two great apps for fans of unofficial softwares and good tidings for a warm future of basement innovation -- only a month after the first custom apps came to light.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/27/installing-pre-homebrew-now-even-easier/



http://www.precentral.net/installing-homebrew-apps-desktop-drag-n-drop-device-too


----------



## Structaural (Jul 29, 2009)

Interesting. For all Pre's multi-tasking (which, lets face it, is essentially flipping between Jarva webpages), you can't take a call and surf the web at the same time (unlike the iPhone). This is down to the chosen mobile companies using CDMA networks.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/07/28/the-palm-preiphone-multitasking-myth/

(about half-way down). Interesting article - I didn't know that Amiga developed one of the first kernel protected true multi-tasking OSs.


----------



## editor (Jul 29, 2009)

Structaural said:


> Interesting. For all Pre's multi-tasking (which, lets face it, is essentially flipping between Jarva webpages), you can't take a call and surf the web at the same time (unlike the iPhone). This is down to the chosen mobile companies using CDMA networks.


Indeed - as you say it's down to the  limitations of the current CDMA technology that the Pre operates on in the States (it can take calls and surf when connected to  wi-fi). It won't be a problem on GSM over here though. 

The Pre's multi tasking capabilities are still inherently superior to the iPhone though, mainly thanks to its superb interface.


----------



## Structaural (Jul 29, 2009)

It isn't bad, but like I said - it's effectively multi-tasking between widgets not apps.


----------



## Sunray (Jul 29, 2009)

I look forward to having a play with one of these, I'm assuming that like the iPhone they will have live demonstrations in the o2 shops.


----------



## jæd (Jul 29, 2009)

editor said:


> Indeed - as you say it's down to the  limitations of the current CDMA technology that the Pre operates on in the States (it can take calls and surf when connected to  wi-fi). It won't be a problem on GSM over here though.



Still going to be a problem to people locked into two year contracts. And when will a GSM Pre be released in the US...?



editor said:


> The Pre's multi tasking capabilities are still inherently superior to the iPhone though, mainly thanks to its superb interface.



Only very few of the iPhones' Apps actually multi-task so it's not a fair comparision.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jul 30, 2009)

editor said:


> The Pre has dropped to a hugely competitive $99 in the States, while PC World thinks that webOS is the most open mobile platform on the market.
> 
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/169039/palm_pre_is_the_most_open_mobile_platform_on_the_market.html





> *Update: *Best Buy marketing manager John Bernier has chimed in via his Twitter account to say that the Pre is $199 and that the "error is being corrected."


http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/26/palm-pre-drops-to-99-at-best-buy/


----------



## editor (Jul 30, 2009)

Lazy Llama said:


> http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/26/palm-pre-drops-to-99-at-best-buy/


Quite a few lucky sods got it for $99 if web reports are to be believed.


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2009)

This site is reviewing all the apps currently available from the Pre AppStore (there's over a hundred 'homebrew' apps also available unofficially).

There's not a lot of choice right now but the apps look to be high quality. 














http://justanothermobilemonday.com/...p-catalog-30-apps-in-30-days-part-1-evernote/


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2009)

And this will do nicely  







http://www.slashgear.com/palm-pre-wifi-app-creates-diy-evdo-router-video-0351040/


----------



## Sunray (Aug 3, 2009)

editor said:


> And this will do nicely
> 
> 
> 
> ...



remember who has the exclusivity for the Pre. 

Be prepared for the outrageous 15 quid a month bolt on that will cost you to use.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 3, 2009)

Sunray said:


> remember who has the exclusivity for the Pre.
> 
> Be prepared for the outrageous 15 quid a month bolt on that will cost you to use.



I just turned my Touch HD into a wifi modem/router, software was on the latest rom I put on it. Orange don't seem to have a way of stopping you tethering. Data allowence is stingy, but as I don't often travel with a laptop it does me fine.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Aug 3, 2009)

I was asking about tethering on 02 (about the iphone) and the guy in carphone warehouse said you could just pay the 15 quid for one month...and then drop it the next...then ring up three months later and put it on again for one month

that would suit me fine as most of the time I'd like to leave the lappy at home..but I cannot believe 02 wont put some stupid barrier in place so you can't do that


----------



## Sunray (Aug 3, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> I just turned my Touch HD into a wifi modem/router, software was on the latest rom I put on it. Orange don't seem to have a way of stopping you tethering. Data allowence is stingy, but as I don't often travel with a laptop it does me fine.



They can port block for perhaps 80, 443 and 25 only which you'd find ok for basic use but shit for anything else.  Could monitor user agent strings, number on the ttl and mac address for a tethering check.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 3, 2009)

user agent can be spoofed.
up your laptop's TTL  by +1.
mac adress is tricky though


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 3, 2009)

Fair enough, but they don't seem to block it at the moment and I'm not going to start streaming stuff or downloading torrents through it.


----------



## Sunray (Aug 4, 2009)

Crispy said:


> user agent can be spoofed.
> up your laptop's TTL  by +1.
> mac adress is tricky though



Pain in the arse to spoof all those. Just get a 3G dongle.


----------



## jæd (Aug 4, 2009)

editor said:


> And this will do nicely
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So we've already forgotten about this, then : http://www.fiercedeveloper.com/story/palm-silences-pre-dev-wiki-tethering-talk/2009-06-15 



> The Pre Dev Wiki webOS developer community information resource said it will honor a request from Pre manufacturer Palm and cease all discussion concerning tethering the smartphone to laptops for mobile wireless Internet access, explaining that such talk risks upsetting the device maker's relationship with operator partner Sprint.


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2009)

Presumably the author isn't part of the Pre Dev Wiki webOS developer community. Still, at least Palm won't be threatening to brick peoples phones.


----------



## jæd (Aug 4, 2009)

editor said:


> Presumably the author isn't part of the Pre Dev Wiki webOS developer community. Still, at least Palm won't be threatening to brick peoples phones.



There will probably be an OTA update that closes this instead...


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2009)

jæd said:


> There will probably be an OTA update that closes this instead...


Maybe, maybe not. There's already over a hundred 'homebrew' apps available, and with Palm not following Apple's ludicrous bully-boy lead of threatening to brick the phones of anyone not doing exactly as they say, I'd imagine such apps will continue to be made available.


----------



## jæd (Aug 4, 2009)

editor said:


> Maybe, maybe not. There's already over a hundred 'homebrew' apps available, and with Palm not following Apple's ludicrous bully-boy lead of threatening to brick the phones of anyone not doing exactly as they say, I'd imagine such apps will continue to be made available.



Cool. 2007 wants its discussion points back. You can still run homebrew apps on the iPhone. Just that no-one bothers with them now there's the App Store.

I predict exactly the same happening once Palm gets it App Store running.


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2009)

jæd said:


> I predict exactly the same happening once Palm gets it App Store running.


You predict Palm will actively try to brick phones running 'unauthorised' software? You want to be put a bet on that? 






In the States, the Palm TV campaign has involved a rather creepy looking woman which has got a very mixed reaction but - tellingly - it continues to churn up column inches which I guess means it's done the job (either way, it has to be better than the dreadful U2 Blackberry advert).
http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/04/palms-ad-agency-loves-that-youre-creeped-out-by-new-tv-spots/


----------



## jæd (Aug 4, 2009)

editor said:


> You predict Palm will actively try to brick phones running 'unauthorised' software? You want to be put a bet on that?



You seem to have mis-interpreted my post:

"You can still run homebrew apps on the iPhone. Just that no-one bothers with them now there's the App Store.

I predict exactly the same happening once Palm gets it App Store running."

Once people are able to get Apps through the Pre App Store only a minority will bother with homebrew.


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2009)

jæd said:


> Once people are able to get Apps through the Pre App Store only a minority will bother with homebrew.


I'd say that very much depends on what apps are available outside the App Store - after all there's nothing stopping people buying apps from third party sites, with no jailbreaking or fiddling about needed.

You are aware that Pre users aren't forced to buy their apps through just the one, highly controlled and censor-happy corporate outlet, yes?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 4, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> I was asking about tethering on 02 (about the iphone) and the guy in carphone warehouse said you could just pay the 15 quid for one month...and then drop it the next...then ring up three months later and put it on again for one month
> 
> that would suit me fine as most of the time I'd like to leave the lappy at home..but I cannot believe 02 wont put some stupid barrier in place so you can't do that



Seriously??


----------



## grit (Aug 4, 2009)

Editor: Seeing how you seem to be the champion of the Pre, have you managed to get your hands on one already?


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2009)

grit said:


> Editor: Seeing how you seem to be the champion of the Pre, have you managed to get your hands on one already?


I'm not a "champion" of the phone, but it certainly seems to be the one that comes closest to matching my needs.  It hasn't been released in the UK yet but it's had some tremendous reviews in the US.


----------



## grit (Aug 4, 2009)

editor said:


> I'm not a "champion" of the phone, but it certainly seems to be the one that comes closest to matching my needs.  It hasn't been released in the UK yet but it's had some tremendous reviews in the US.



Oh just thought you grabbed one off ebay or something. If I was that excited by a bit of tech I wouldnt be able to restrain myself


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2009)

grit said:


> Oh just thought you grabbed one off ebay or something. If I was that excited by a bit of tech I wouldnt be able to restrain myself


There'd be no point - there's no GSM version yet.


----------



## jæd (Aug 5, 2009)

editor said:


> You are aware that Pre users aren't forced to buy their apps through just the one, highly controlled and censor-happy corporate outlet, yes?



I love the loaded language here.  Btw, the SDK Terms and Conditions indicate otherwise. See "4.3 : Applications Can Only Be Distributed Through the Palm Application Catalog, etc, etc" http://developer.palm.com/termsofservice.html


----------



## jæd (Aug 5, 2009)

grit said:


> Oh just thought you grabbed one off ebay or something. If I was that excited by a bit of tech I wouldnt be able to restrain myself



Surprised he hasn't played with one in NYC, or at least installed the SDK to use the emulator....


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2009)

jæd said:


> I love the loaded language herel


My words are carefully chosen and entirely accurate. The Apple appstore is _absolutely_ a highly controlled and censor-happy corporate outlet. It is in sole control of what apps get approved and it regularly censors apps based on moral grounds - and it's pissed this long time Apple journo off so much that's he abandoning the iPhone: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/31/i-quit-the-iphone/

As for Palm, you  can freely download Palm Pre apps from third party sites, just like you can do with Windows Mobile, Blackberry, Symbian etc etc. 

Rest assured, if Palm suddenly start acting like Apple then I'll be just as quick to call them cunts too.


jæd said:


> Surprised he hasn't played with one in NYC, or at least installed the SDK to use the emulator....


I'm certainly interested in the Palm Pre, but I'm not going to go jetting off to  New York just to play with one, or start faffing about with an emulator.


----------



## jæd (Aug 5, 2009)

editor said:


> My words are carefully chosen and entirely accurate. The Apple appstore is _absolutely_ a highly controlled and censor-happy corporate outlet. It is in sole control of what apps get approved and it regularly censors apps based on moral grounds - and it's pissed this long time Apple journo off so much that's he abandoning the iPhone: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/31/i-quit-the-iphone/



Oh noes...!   A big-mouth blogger has a hissy fit...! Apple gonna fail for sure...! 



editor said:


> Rest assured, if Palm suddenly start acting like Apple then I'll be just as quick to call them cunts too.



We shall wait and see...


----------



## grit (Aug 5, 2009)

4.2 and 4.3 on that TOS makes for a very interesting read.

And please dont back yourself up with idiots like techcrunch bloggers.

From the TOS if people cant be arsed clicking the link:

4.2 Application Signing.  Developer acknowledges and agrees that Applications which access or make use of Palm’s APIs may not be installed or used on Palm Devices, except in a test environment, without first being signed with a certificate issued by or for Palm.  Developer acknowledges and agrees that the method under which such certificates will be issued, and Developer’s ability to distribute such Applications for use with Palm Devices will be subject to further terms and conditions, which may include additional fees for application signing.  Such terms and conditions shall be presented to Developer upon or before Developer’s request for issuance of a certificate for any Application.

4.3 Applications Can Only Be Distributed Through the Palm Application Catalog.  Developer acknowledges and agrees, that absent a separate written agreement with Palm, Developer may not distribute any Application except as allowed by Palm’s formal approved distribution process and channel (the “Application Catalog”).   Developer acknowledges and agrees that (a) distribution of Applications will be subject to further terms and conditions, which may include a share of the revenue generated from sale of the Applications to be paid to Palm by Developer, where such terms and conditions shall be presented to Developer upon or before Developer’s request for distribution of any Application, (b) because of certain laws, regulations, as well as contractual or other restrictions, *Palm may refuse to allow the distribution of certain types of Applications*, and (c) distributed Applications may be viewable or inspectable by third parties, and Palm is not obligated to take any steps to obfuscate the code associated with the Applications or take any other steps to prevent third parties from viewing or inspecting Application code.

Edited to add: The reason I call techcrunch idiots that for a supposedly tech site they cant figure out how a certain story made it into their RSS feed and then went around the net asking people to help them cover up their fuck up

Oh and bold emphasis mine.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2009)

grit said:


> (b) because of certain laws, regulations, as well as contractual or other restrictions, *Palm may refuse to allow the distribution of certain types of Applications*


That's OK because you'll still be able to freely download the programs elsewhere. See the difference?





> Palm CEO Ed Colligan Talks Pre with Investors
> 
> Not only will Palm have an app store at launch, they're not locking down the device so you can only install apps from their app store.  You'll be able to "side load" apps directly over USB or over the air from any provider.
> 
> http://www.precentral.net/palm-ceo-ed-colligan-talks-pre-investors


----------



## jæd (Aug 5, 2009)

grit said:


> 4.2 and 4.3 on that TOS makes for a very interesting read.



These are the ones. It will be interesting if these can (or are) be used to take-down homebrew apps, and whether previous announcements are binding or are superceded by the linked agreement. Lawyers are looking into this as we speak...

Its yet more Wait-And-See Pie from Palm...


----------



## grit (Aug 5, 2009)

Yeah but from the wording of that TOS it looks as if you can download from other sources once they have been *sanctioned by Palm*. See the use of the SDK is required to write a application that calls palm's API.

To be honest as a developer what would scare me more is actually this line 

"Applications may be viewable or inspectable by third parties, and Palm is not obligated to take any steps to obfuscate the code associated with the Applications or take any other steps to prevent third parties from viewing or inspecting Application code."

Which translates to if you do something we like we are going to steal it or let our mates steal it and there is nothing you can do.


----------



## jæd (Aug 5, 2009)

grit said:


> Edited to add: The reason I call techcrunch idiots that for a supposedly tech site they cant figure out how a certain story made it into their RSS feed and then went around the net asking people to help them cover up their fuck up



I have learnt so much out from muppet tech sites by simply having a fast updating RSS reader...


----------



## grit (Aug 5, 2009)

The fact that their fuckup could have caused somebody outside of techcrunch his job is what i found really offensive.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2009)

jæd said:


> These are the ones. It will be interesting if these can (or are) be used to take-down homebrew apps, and whether previous announcements are binding or are superceded by the linked agreement. Lawyers are looking into this as we speak....


Have you a source for this please?


----------



## jæd (Aug 5, 2009)

grit said:


> To be honest as a developer what would scare me more is actually this line
> 
> "Applications may be viewable or inspectable by third parties, and Palm is not obligated to take any steps to obfuscate the code associated with the Applications or take any other steps to prevent third parties from viewing or inspecting Application code."
> 
> Which translates to if you do something we like we are going to steal it or let our mates steal it and there is nothing you can do.



Probably because apps are basically a mashup of Javascript / CSS / HTML, etc. Any bod can read anyone-else's code. If you have your own valuable IP in a WebOs app you should do your own obfuscation.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2009)

jæd said:


> I have learnt so much out from muppet tech sites by simply having a fast updating RSS reader...


Not that you've ever made a mistake, posted something incorrectly or accidentally relayed false information, eh?

If you work on tech websites you're on hideously short deadlines as you try and get the stories out. Even if you research stories thoroughly, it's easy to make mistakes - I've even received press releases that contain inaccurate information and some PR agencies send out horribly vague statements.

They're only 'muppets' if they can't be bothered to correct their stories.


----------



## grit (Aug 5, 2009)

editor said:


> Not that you've ever made a mistake, posted something incorrectly or accidentally relayed false information, eh?
> 
> If you work on tech websites you're on hideously short deadlines as you try and get the stories out. Even if you research stories thoroughly, it's easy to make mistakes - I've even received press releases that contain inaccurate information and some PR agencies send out horribly vague statements.
> 
> They're only 'muppets' if they can't be bothered to correct their stories.



The article in question had [DO NOT PUBLISH] in the title and then they claimed they didnt know how it go onto the RSS, if you fuck up at least have the balls to say what happened and dont try and force other bloggers to take down their reference to your fuckup.


----------



## grit (Aug 5, 2009)

Anyway those TOS show a pretty much identical model (actually a bit worse) than the apple app store. I say a bit worse because it appears that palm wont even handle the payment aspects which for a lot of developers is one of the strenghts of the apple app store. 

Those big corporate guys who you seem to dislike so much editor are all playing the same game, which really shouldnt be surprising


----------



## jæd (Aug 5, 2009)

editor said:


> Have you a source for this please?



Does a SDK Agreement in July supercede a PR announcement from Feb...? Lawyers are internal, and you would have to sign a NDA. (And I suspect they are not the only set of lawyers looking at the terms and charging money)


----------



## grit (Aug 5, 2009)

jæd said:


> Does a SDK Agreement in July supercede a PR announcement from Feb...? Lawyers are internal, and you would have to sign a NDA. (And I suspect they are not the only set of lawyers looking at the terms and charging money)



The PR announcement is vague enough "you can sideload" he just trailed off before he said "only from sanctioned Palm providers".

ETA: "If you have your own valuable IP in a WebOs app you should do your own obfuscation."

If its js/html/css there isint much you can do to protect it which kinda sucks.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2009)

jæd said:


> Does a SDK Agreement in July supercede a PR announcement from Feb...? Lawyers are internal, and you would have to sign a NDA. (And I suspect they are not the only set of lawyers looking at the terms and charging money)


So when you claimed that "Lawyers are looking into this as we speak....", that was you giving an example of the poor reporting you were talking about earlier, yes?


----------



## Crispy (Aug 5, 2009)

Oh Zing! Point scored! High Five!


----------



## grit (Aug 5, 2009)

Except for the fact he is skipping all the posts previously that point out the holes in his argument (with direct quotes for Palm's TOS no less) and which backup what was said over on the iphone thread for the past few pages


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2009)

grit said:


> Except for the fact he is skipping all the posts previously that point out the holes in his argument (with direct quotes for Palm's TOS no less) and which backup what was said over on the iphone thread for the past few pages


Palm's TOS covers apps being distributed via their app store.

Can you produce any links that state that Palm will take legal action or attempt to 'brick' the handsets of anyone installing apps from third party sites?  There's over a hundred 'homebrew' apps currently being distributed and Palm has taken no action against any of the authors.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 5, 2009)

grit said:


> Except for the fact he is skipping all the posts previously that point out the holes in his argument (with direct quotes for Palm's TOS no less) and which backup what was said over on the iphone thread for the past few pages


sorry, should have put a  on


----------



## grit (Aug 5, 2009)

They dont state it specifically because they dont need to. in 4.3 the sentence that I bolded shows they have the right to decide what gets distrbuted (this obviously extends to used aswell).

The point is that those homebrew applications are currently breaking the TOS, why are they allowed to contuine, few possiblites. prob becuase Its a new handset with fuck all apps and they have far more pressing things to worry about now that they have launched their do or die product. Why? because the only people who care about this stuff is nerds like us on internet forums

The point being made here is that the motive and ideaology in palms model is the same for apple. Make money for the shareholders and control what happens on your platform so you dont get shafted by something unexpected.

which is what ive been saying to you for the past few days



ETA 2nd time: The fact that your looking for an actual sentence similar to "if you do something we dont like we will brick your phone" shows you dont have much experience reading these sort of documents. Those two paragraphs of legalise above cover everything, because a lot of very smart very rich lawyers created them under instruction by palm


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2009)

grit said:


> ETA 2nd time: The fact that your looking for an actual sentence similar to "if you do something we dont like we will brick your phone" shows you dont have much experience reading these sort of documents. Those two paragraphs of legalise above cover everything, because a lot of very smart very rich lawyers created them under instruction by palm


Coming from someone who has already showed woeful ignorance of how the mobile app industry operates, I'll just ignore that load of cloudy, vague bollocks.

FYI: No other handset manufacturer has threatened to brick phones apart from Apple, and no one has threatened to do it since. 

Oh, and I have no expectations of an 'open source utopia', but I'm pretty sure that Palm's model won't be as controlling and as morally censorious as Apple's. In fact, it already isn't. 


Crispy said:


> sorry, should have put a  on


----------



## grit (Aug 5, 2009)

editor said:


> Coming from someone who has already showed woeful ignorance of how the mobile app industry operates, I'll just ignore that load of cloudy, vague bollocks.
> 
> FYI: No other handset manufacturer has threatened to brick phones apart from Apple, and no one has threatened to do it since.
> 
> Oh, and I have no expectations of an 'open source utopia', but I'm pretty sure that Palm's model won't be as controlling and as morally censorious as Apple's. In fact, it already isn't.



Funny because I think (correct me if I'm wrong please) I'm the only person here who writes mobile applications for a living. 

Your attempting to make direct comparisons for a phone that is released (recently i might add) to only the American market so far, by a company who is on the chopping block financially (15 dollars a share ffs). To the monster that is apple who are on their 3rd generation of a similar handset and who are very strong (closed at about 165 dollars a share i think).

Just because you dont agree with me, doesnt mean I dont know what I'm talking about.


----------



## jæd (Aug 5, 2009)

grit said:


> ETA 2nd time: The fact that your looking for an actual sentence similar to "if you do something we dont like we will brick your phone" shows you dont have much experience reading these sort of documents. Those two paragraphs of legalise above cover everything, because a lot of very smart very rich lawyers created them under instruction by palm



This is why we have fairly smart, hopefully very affordable lawyers (we can hope...) looking at these things... 




			
				editor said:
			
		

> So when you claimed that "Lawyers are looking into this as we speak....", that was you giving an example of the poor reporting you were talking about earlier, yes?



Not unless I suddenly turned into a tech blogger / journo. 

30 - 15, I make it...


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2009)

grit said:


> Funny because I think (correct me if I'm wrong please) I'm the only person here who writes mobile applications for a living.


You're probably the only person here who thought that Blackberry, Nokia and Microsoft vetted all their apps and employed the same  monopolistic and censorial approach to app distribution as Apple.


----------



## jæd (Aug 5, 2009)

grit said:


> Funny because I think (correct me if I'm wrong please) I'm the only person here who writes mobile applications for a living.



With me its about (at most) 20 % of my job... Ideally I would like to make it more but its just seen as a research project / keeping a toe in.



grit said:


> Your attempting to make direct comparisons for a phone that is released (recently i might add) to only the American market so far, by a company who is on the chopping block financially (15 dollars a share ffs). To the monster that is apple who are on their 3rd generation of a similar handset and who are very strong (closed at about 165 dollars a share i think).



Its also a comparison between a company that rebooted smart-phones with an innovative offering that's probably struggling under its success, compared to a tiny company where much is still in development and just hot air.


----------



## grit (Aug 5, 2009)

editor said:


> You're probably the only person here who thought that Blackberry, Nokia and Microsoft vetted all their apps and employed the same  monopolistic and censorial approach to app distribution as Apple.



There are vetting processes for official applications, and i was happy to concede that those company's dont take the exact same attitude. They really wish that they had an application platform as successfull as apples so they would have to take these actions.

Before the TOS was posted and we had a look I would have continued on this debate, but you obviously have no interest in changing/conceding any of your argument even with the evidence provided. Thats your choice, and as its your site maybe you dont want to lose face, fair enough.

I think I've articulated myself well and shown with evidence why certain practices are common in the mobile industry and why they will contuine. So on that I think I'm going to check out of this debate as it doesnt feel like we are getting anywhere.

Once again you can claimed you have kicked my ass,  you seem to get a lot of enjoyment from it


----------



## jæd (Aug 5, 2009)

grit said:


> So on that I think I'm going to check out of this debate as it doesnt feel like we are getting anywhere.



Good advice. I think its best to return when Palm have something solid to offer...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 5, 2009)

jæd said:


> Good advice. I think its best to return when Palm have something solid to offer...



Indeed.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2009)

Back on topic, a new Homebrew App Gallery has just gone up on precentral.
There's some useful-looking apps in there, including unofficial Google Voice apps.







http://www.precentral.net/homebrew-apps

Oh, and as for the supposed high Pre return rates:


> > Goldberg says his talks with Palm management suggest Pre return rates are no higher than usual for a new device; his chats with developers suggest a high level of interest in the Web OS software of the phone, and he expects Palm to show progress with its applications catalog by September. Component suppliers, furthermore, indicate Palm is up’ing its orders from them, which he takes as a positive sign for Pre sales down the road.
> >
> > http://blogs.barrons.com/techtrader...utsche-says-pre-returns-normal-ups-tgt-to-17/


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Aug 5, 2009)

argh...right now I am trying to restore my data to my second intermittently crashing Palm Centro (after a brief stint back with my old previous model - which then died, this was the second one of those I owned - I washed the first one) ...I'm loyal me

now my LifeBalance conduit keeps crashing and my Restore did not restore the email settings..or loads of other stuff. Missing Synch is being flakey on me, this Centro's down key is broken and it's all worn me down... I just want to get on and do some work, I just need my calendar, addresses, email and LifeBalance to work everyday, that's it

I don't think I can wait the three? months for the Pre. I am not rushing but headed foot draggingly towards an iPhone, I'll get the shortest 2 bloody year contract and then maybe slide back to the Pre mark 2 when it has a huge catalogue of apps, a video camera, more memory and a Gobbling TeasMaid. Have fun and pls iron out any niggles k thnks bai..

I tried Palm, I really tried. Good luck.

Sad..I remember banging on about my Palm 650 as the first great smartphone, seven years ago or so?

(just as a tiny insight into the mind of this consumer...I hate the Appleborg for censoring apps and borking the iTunes/Pre connection and I hope they give in. buuut I have to confess as a non-skillz geek i am looking forward to synching entirely natively Macstylee..no conduits..no mysterious palmdoubling of contacts - which helped frak up my accounts software address book. I just want it to work and synch with sod all fiddling now, always.

I really want the Pre to succeed, I think Apple will benefit from the competition as well, and I hope it makes them open up a bit and chill. 

and I cannot really understand why the Pre is not here, now. 

But with some bitterness I do remember the unforgivable 5?!? months it took to make the latest Palm centro firmware update available to Mac users...and as I'm typing that I realise that if I trusted Palms competence a bit more I might have bought my sixth (!!!) Palm smartphone on ebay and hung on in there for three months more....


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2009)

That sucks.

Just a thought: why not resurrect your Treo 650 for now or pick up a cheap one off eBay? There's one there with a 'buy now or best offer' for just £35!

The Pre is still expected 'soon' but no date yet.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Aug 5, 2009)

my old 650 died..
all my many Palms are now defective....(and have been therefore grinding me down)

I might still have bought yet another one off ebay...If I absolutely KNEW the Pre would be running LifeBalance natively (not in an emulator with consequent synching potential mares) by the time it comes out in Nov. But I don't.

as I say I need to change phone now. and I just want it to work. and I don't want to change for the fourth time in a couple of months, and then keep crossing my fingers for a LifeBalance conduit. At the moment the only real reason for me to wait would be my virtual keyboard allergy. But I tried it again and it's ok.

Funnily enough I might buy another centro for my girlfriend though..she had a bad experience with some HTC? virtual keyboard and now wants another palm (it was because I'd lent her the spare that this was even more nightmarish)


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2009)

The latest rumour is that the Pre will be coming to O2 on October 30th....


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Aug 10, 2009)

that's slightly sooner than we thought..good

update on my oh so interesting saga..I'm up and running on the centro again, just
- Resco backups work..Missing Synch on the Mac ones simply do not.
- TomTom are ripoff artists, I bought it for my first Treo...but because I have had three die on me I cannot transfer my TomTom software again they say.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 10, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> that's slightly sooner than we thought..good
> 
> update on my oh so interesting saga..I'm up and running on the centro again, just
> - Resco backups work..Missing Synch on the Mac ones simply do not.
> - TomTom are ripoff artists, I bought it for my first Treo...but because I have had three die on me I cannot transfer my TomTom software again they say.



Its like they are almost asking you to torrent it.


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> that's slightly sooner than we thought..good
> 
> update on my oh so interesting saga..I'm up and running on the centro again, just
> - Resco backups work..Missing Synch on the Mac ones simply do not.


Have you written to the folks at Missing Sync? They're usually pretty good at tech support. They've also got a Windows version coming up soon which is good news for me: http://www.markspace.com/products/pre/windows/palm-pre-sync-overview.html 

The October 30th release date rumour is still floating about, although there's no definite pricing details yet (iPhone-like tariffs have been suggested by some).






Palm have been promoting the Pre in the States with some fairly weird adverts that have got a mixed reaction from the tech blogs, but it seems that they're proving pretty effective with th epublic: http://mypre.com/people-feel-inspiration-and-happiness-on-palm-pre-ad-study-2009112695/


----------



## sumimasen (Aug 11, 2009)

The Gadget Show did a quick video article on iPhone v Pre v N97.  iPhone just edged it for them, not clear why though.

http://fwd.five.tv/gadgets/phones/palm-pre


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2009)

I just watched that - the things it got marked down for (no video, no block email delete) are almost certainly going to be added soon.


----------



## Teepee (Aug 12, 2009)

it seems like the palm pre spies on it's users,

http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/Palm_Pre_privacy/

sends your GPS co ordinates and list of installed apps back to palm HQ. Weird. Can any pre owners replicate this guy's findings?

e2a: slashdot article http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1334059

e2a again: seems confirmed. http://www.precentral.net/fyi-pre-reports-your-location-palm


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 12, 2009)

How nice of Palm the nice corporation...


----------



## editor (Aug 12, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> How nice of Palm the nice corporation...


Sorry to spoil your glee, but it can be turned off.

"You go to "Location Services" on the Pre you can turn off background collection no matter what you picked the first time you turned on the phone.

I leave everything turned off - GPS, Background Data Collection, Auto Locate, everything. And it doesn't effect programs that use GPS at all! The program will ask you whether or not you want to turn GPS on."

http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/12/pre-phones-home-with-your-location-which-explains-the-black-hel/


----------



## editor (Aug 13, 2009)

Ah, Palm have been (very) quick to release an official statement:


> Palm takes privacy very seriously, and offers users ways to turn data collecting services on and off. Our privacy policy is like many policies in the industry and includes very detailed language about potential scenarios in which we might use a customer's information, all toward a goal of offering a great user experience. For instance, when location based services are used, we collect their information to give them relevant local results in Google Maps. We appreciate the trust that users give us with their information, and have no intention to violate that trust.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 13, 2009)

Engadget said:
			
		

> The biggest change appears to be a fix for that nasty bug that caused the Pre to reset or turn off when the keyboard was closed -- that bit of grey foam pictured was added to the battery compartment to tighten up the battery connection. There's a also word that the screen cracking and unintended rotation issues have been addressed, although time will tell on those, and the button color has changed from pearl to silver. As for improvements, well, there's a new battery model, and the Palm logo is now embossed on the carrying case. Yep, just little stuff, but it's good to see Palm addressing the build issues on the Pre, which are by far the most common complaint about the device.



It looks like Palm are listening to customers. Maybe not so bad for those waiting for a UK release.


----------



## tarannau (Aug 17, 2009)

A lot of rumours are circulating about Palm's financial health after analysts begin to cut their predictions following disappointing sales figures. Brutally put, initial sales haven't met up to expectations, the network hasn't gained the customers it'd like and the handset's seemingly failing to dent (in particular) customer loyalty to Apple and Blackberry. Even the Blackberry Storm, of all blinking handsets, seems to have produced a more obvious upturn for its carrier.With new Android handsets on the way it's looking potentially grim for Palm, with analysts quick to point out future funding difficulties.

More detail here:
http://www.toptechnews.com/story.xhtml?story_id=0120016HEP8O&page=1

More of the same elsewhere and suddenly a lot of the positivity over the platform is beginning to disipate. It's going to be a much more difficult path for Palm than expected by the looks of it, one that I'm not convinced it'll survive.


----------



## grit (Aug 17, 2009)

tarannau said:


> A lot of rumours are circulating about Palm's financial health after analysts begin to cut their predictions following disappointing sales figures.



They have been in the shit for a long time, the share price is about 15 dollars which is a joke. The Pre is really their do or die move.


----------



## tarannau (Aug 17, 2009)

No doubts about that, but the positivity over the launch and analyst predictions gave them a decent negotiating position with the networks and investors. 

Now they're a little bit more constricted, to say the least.


----------



## Sunray (Aug 17, 2009)

Their problem was they released it a bit late.  If Apple hadn't entered the phone market, we would all be falling over for this phone because its a great phone.  The UI would be revolutionary.

But now the world and its dog has release a touch screen phone.  People who would have bought it, like me for instance, are locked into iPhones.  I evangelise it to others.  They buy the phone. 

The king for consumers is Apple with its UI. King for business is the RIM with its keyboard.  Android is starting to gather pace due to the number of phones manufacturers are releasing.  

However Palm are viewed in the US or here, they are a bit late to market and are going to have to work damn hard to get the acceptance they require.  Their biggest fail is not making it reasonably priced contract free and locking it to any one carrier. Huge failure as far as I can see.  I might have bought one, but I'm not going to get locked into another long contract for anything other than a new iPhone and I don't mean the GS.


----------



## sumimasen (Aug 17, 2009)

Disappointing sales in US = better deals in the UK


----------



## tarannau (Aug 17, 2009)

Or more likely: disappointing sales in US mean less economies of scale and the repositioning of the Palm as more of a premium niche product.


----------



## grit (Aug 17, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Disappointing sales in US = better deals in the UK



Eh no.


----------



## sumimasen (Aug 17, 2009)

Well we'll see.


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Brutally put, initial sales haven't met up to expectations, the network hasn't gained the customers it'd like and the handset's seemingly failing to dent (in particular) customer loyalty to Apple and Blackberry. .


None of the analysts have the slightest clue about the actual sales figures, and some are painting a very different picture to your doom'n'gloom scenario:





> Pacific Crest analyst James Faucette writes that his checks find that monthly sell-through of the Pre in August is “trending up slightly sequentially” versus run-rates at the end of July. He contends the improvement reflect better advertising, improved supply and strong word-of-mouth. That said, Faucette adds that further acceleration is going to be requried to meet his August quarter sales estimate of 750,000 units. He maintains his Outperform rating and $17 price target, and still thinks the company’s WebOS and software development team could be more to a potential acquirer - he mentions Nokia and Motorola - than as a stand-alone company.
> 
> http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2009/08/17/palm-pre-sales-pick-up-in-august-or-maybe-not/


----------



## grit (Aug 17, 2009)

editor said:


> None of the analysts have the slightest clue about the actual sales figures, and some are painting a very different picture to your doom'n'gloom scenario:



While their share price drops 5% to 13.29!


----------



## tarannau (Aug 17, 2009)

Whilst it's always tempting to take analyst reports with a pinch of salt, there's a head of steam building up that's affecting Palm's share price and negotiating position. From a quick Google:



> Grozovsky cut his estimate on Palm (NASDAQ: PALM) Pre unit sales for the August quarter to 350,000 from 400,000, which he says is already low relative to Wall Street expectations. He downgraded Palm to "sell" from "hold."
> 
> "We believe that our 400,000 units estimate for Pre was a low estimate relative to Street expectations and, as a result, believe that should the company even achieve these numbers, it would be viewed as a disappointment by investors," the research note said.





> If JNK wireless consultant iGR (quoted in TechChrunch) is to be believed, Palm Pre sales are not as high as other analysts seem to think. As expected, the sales rate has dropped somewhat since the launch date, but iGR is estimating that Pre sales have dropped to and stabilized around 22,000 - 25,000 units a week, from a launch week high of 140,000, adding up to a to-date total of around 320,000 sales. Sprint’s inventory of Pre phones has reached a supply-demand stabilization point (which bodes well for Bell customers in Canada).




Either way, the bullish stance of one of Palm's investors is looking a long way from reality now and momentum's being lost:



> You know the beautiful thing: June 29, 2009, is the two-year anniversary of the first shipment of the iPhone. Not one of those people will still be using an iPhone a month later. - Roger McNamee, Elevation Partners - March 05, 2009


----------



## tarannau (Aug 17, 2009)

Add to that, there's no reason for Palm to keep mum after being so cocky.  Particularly when the massive success of the Apple iphone in the last quarter is drawing media attention:



> The early results are in and it doesn’t look good for Palm. Today, Apple announced their third quarter results for the fiscal year 2009, a three month period sales period which ended on June 27. Apple’s quarterly sales numbers represent a non holiday record for the Cupertino based company. Highlights include overall global revenue of $8.34 billion with a net quarterly profit of $1.23 billion. Apple sold a whopping 5.2 million iPhones which, according to Techcrunch, represents a 626 percent growth over the equivalent quarter last year. Twice as many iPhones were sold in the last quarter as Mac computers (2.6 million), thereby symbolizing Apple’s shift from a personal computer maker to a provider of wireless entertainment and communications devices.
> What’s really scary about the Apple numbers is that they barely include sales figures for the new 3GS iphone which only became available a few days before the end of their quarter



More here on the Telegraph blogs
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/andrewkeen/100002376/is-apple-taking-palm-to-the-smartphone-cleaners/


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Add to that, there's no reason for Palm to keep mum after being so cocky.  Particularly when the massive success of the Apple iphone in the last quarter is drawing media attention:


What a bizarre article.  No one in their right mind expected the Pre to be outselling the iPhone at this ridiculously early stage. 

The Pre is a brand new handset running a brand new operating system. There's only one phone available, it hasn't been offered for sale anywhere else in the world but the US, (and then only on one, lower ranked network), and with Palm being something like 25 times smaller than Apple they haven't a hope in hell of matching their advertising reach.

They have, however, created a very exciting new OS with huge potential and the phone has picked up a phenomenal buzz, so it's plain weird to write them off at such an early stage.

As a comment on that (nearly a month old) article rightly points out: 





> Apple sells their phones worldwide and has a 3 year brand advantage. Palm is selling their phone on the third place carrier in the US only. Being able to sell one million phones into a very competitive market isn’t bad. If Palm can improve this phone with updates, and continue to improve webOS, by their next gen phone they will really start to compete. Don’t be an Apple fan boy, at least feign lack of bias.


----------



## tarannau (Aug 17, 2009)

It's not just one article though, is it?

From Businessweek:



> Due to the slightly disappointing sales this may cause difficulties when Palm approach other carriers, one expert said “If Sprint can’t prove that the Pre is an iPhone killer, it’ll really affect the level of subsidies”.



I'd agree that it's too early to count Palm out entirely. But the promotional silence hardly bodes well for a company so bullish before. Palm needs momentum, particularly with new Android phones on the horizon, and it's not achieving that to the degree I would have expected. So much depends on rapid growth and success:



> Palm's budget Eos smartphone is rumored today to be on hold due to worries over Pre sales. The Centro replacement, nicknamed "Pixie," is said by contacts in Asia to still be under development but that its actual launch is frozen until Palm has "better visibility" of how well the Pre and other existing phones are selling


www.electronista.com


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2009)

All I'm seeing is a bunch of rumours, 'maybes' and some fairly wild speculation there.  The Eos phone hasn't even  been officially announced and seeing as no one had a clue about the Pre until its official announcement, I'll take that blog comment with a ton of scepticism.

This article you linked to on the electronista site certainly caught my eye and - if true - may prove to have an impact on network provider's choice of handsets/partners in the future:





> The analyst group maintains that "not one" provider offering the iPhone has seen a financial or market share boost since adding it to their rosters. In many cases, these companies have either seen reduced profit from the heavy subsidies needed for the iPhone or haven't seen the surge in data revenues they expected from customers moving to more expensive smartphone plans.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/tech...20090817?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews



Edit to add- here's a more credible take on the supposed 'delay' to the Eos:


> Palm Wars Episode V: The Analysts Strike Back. Not long after throwing Palm’s stock into the clearance bin, Morgan Joseph analyst Ilya Grozovsky has penned another research note on Palm.
> 
> This time he’s claiming that the unannounced non-slider Eos/Pixie webOS smartphone has been delayed from its unannounced 2009 holiday season to next year. Grozovsky stated that Palm will need to put all its muscle behind the Eos if it hopes to compete against the $99 iPhone 3G currently on AT&T (the Eos is rumored to be landing on AT&T - and Sprint - at $99).
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 17, 2009)

Another day another person I know has a blackberry, virtualy everyone I know has a BB or iPhone now. Palm seriously have their work cut out for them, in fact I wouldn't be surprised at this point if the Pre flops in the UK...


----------



## grit (Aug 17, 2009)

editor said:


> All I'm seeing is a bunch of rumours, 'maybes' and some fairly wild speculation there.



They didnt have the huge burst of opening sales they hoped for, and there is a load riding on this. What the share price says is that the industry doesn't think it has it in it. 

ETA: The problem for palm is that having a good feature set at a good price is not enough, it needs to break through the now dominated market.

That of course can be wrong, the fact that things are vague is what would put me on the defensive. If things were good they would be shouting it from the rooftops.


----------



## Sunray (Aug 17, 2009)

I'd be interested in getting a Pre but 6 months to go on the ol' contract.  I'm not signing another monster 18 month contract for the Pre.  

They should have gone for serious cheap with the good UI and keyboard off contract.  Seriously undercutting the iPhone I would have been very interested in it when my contract ran out, but they have gone the single carrier Apple route.

I can only think they had $$$ in their eyes when doing this, rather than looking at the bottom line.

The Pre was announced at the beginning of the year.  Its August now and the GSM version, the version that can make them real money still isn't here.  Launching the EVDO phone 1st isn't one of Palm's greatest decisions.   The more I look at that decision, the more I'm baffled.  The could have sold it to a bigger US operator and also to the rest of the English speaking world.


----------



## grit (Aug 17, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I can only think they had $$$ in their eyes when doing this, rather than looking at the bottom line.



They need cash NOW!


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Another day another person I know has a blackberry, virtualy everyone I know has a BB or iPhone now. Palm seriously have their work cut out for them, in fact I wouldn't be surprised at this point if the Pre flops in the UK...


I don't think the UK market has ever been a particular big concern for Palm - even when they were dominating the smartphone market with the massively successful Treo, they remained comparatively rare phones over here.

As for the Pre "flopping" or not, it seems a _ridiculously_ premature to be posting such negative opinions before the thing has even got a firm UK release confirmation, let alone a release date.


grit said:


> They didnt have the huge burst of opening sales they hoped for, and there is a load riding on this. What the share price says is that the industry doesn't think it has it in it..


Unless you know something I don't, neither the sales figures or Palm's target numbers have been released.

I don't think the share price is much of an indicator at the moment seeing as it's responding to speculation and they've been going up and down for months (but still remain in rude health compared to last year).


----------



## Sunray (Aug 18, 2009)

grit said:


> They need cash NOW!



Yeah true so where does the EVDO decision come into that?

GSM = Everybody 
EVDO = Nobody

It stands to reason the engineering department could have turned out a GSM phone in the same time as the EVDO version?  That can't even do data and phone at the same time!

'You know that restaurant I was talking about, um forgotten its name, hang on I'm going to have to call you back to look it up'

Crazy decision.


----------



## grit (Aug 18, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Yeah true so where does the EVDO decision come into that?



Simple they are broke and couldn't afford to do it, so they correctly targeted the market where they have the most brand awareness.


----------



## editor (Aug 18, 2009)

grit said:


> Simple they are broke and couldn't afford to do it, so they correctly targeted the market where they have the most brand awareness.


Exactly. They must have spent an absolute fortune developing the new webOS and the Pre, so it makes sense to use their limited resources releasing the handset in a market where they are still a fairly respected brand.

Don't forget, Palm are really quite tiny compared to most of the other big players like Nokia, Apple, Blackberry etc.


----------



## Sunray (Aug 18, 2009)

The US market is a fine place to choose, but EVDO makes no sense there either really. The operator is small and once you buy a Pre your limited to just either Verizon or Sprint so when your contract runs out you have a choice of two or bin the phone.


----------



## grit (Aug 18, 2009)

editor said:


> Exactly. They must have spent an absolute fortune developing the new webOS and the Pre, so it makes sense to use their limited resources releasing the handset in a market where they are still a fairly respected brand.
> 
> Don't forget, Palm are really quite tiny compared to most of the other big players like Nokia, Apple, Blackberry etc.



Thats why I think they are probably going to be taken over by someone like Nokia. It makes sense the Symbian s60 ecosystem that a lot of the higher end nokia's are in is... shit compared to what apple and to a lesser extend RIM have done.

Your right the exact numbers have not been released, but a lot of people are losing their confidence because the share price drive when due to the hype of the pre, its now in the market and doesn't appear to be the runaway success they need. 

They needed people queuing up in the street, and it did not happen on the scale that was required, and this is in their strongest market.

The fight is not over yet, but its not a great start.


----------



## editor (Aug 18, 2009)

grit said:


> They needed people queuing up in the street, and it did not happen on the scale that was required, and this is in their strongest market.


To be fair, at no point did Palm (or Sprint) even _suggest_ that they were expecting masses of people queuing in the street.

I really wouldn't pay much attention to the share price either - it's been going up and down all over the place in recent months, usually fuelled by groundless speculation.

They have been linked with several takeover rumours. I thought Dell made the most sense, but Palm doesn't seem too keen on the idea as far as I can see.


----------



## Sunray (Aug 18, 2009)

I think a takeover will be most likely but I'm not sure anyone in the market has the financial balls to do it.  All the big players are corporations that would just assimilate Palm and innovation that brought out WebOS would get diluted and in the end vanish.

Apple is one rare corporation and that is because Steve Jobs is a techy head honcho.  Its a rare thing that someone that understands and enjoys technology and how its developed, gets to run the company.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 18, 2009)

Should have said Europe not UK, just don't see Palm surviving, they don't seem to have the hunger or the resources to make a real go of selling this product.


----------



## editor (Aug 18, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Should have said Europe not UK, just don't see Palm surviving, they don't seem to have the hunger or the resources to make a real go of selling this product.


That comment really makes no sense at all. The Pre is already hitting well above its weight in terms of attracting column inches, and their developer program seems to  be doing a great job.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 18, 2009)

Sales are where it counts.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 18, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Sales are where it counts.



Yep, and that's it, I have very little faith in the Pre doing well in Europe and Palm surviving....


----------



## editor (Aug 18, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yep, and that's it, I have very little faith in the Pre doing well in Europe and Palm surviving....


So you keep saying but you seem to be basing that opinion on, well, nothing at all as far as I can see: US sales figures are yet to be released, and there's been no announcement of a European release, or any details about their marketing strategy or pricing.

FYI, the Pre broke its carriers sales record when it launched in the US.



> Sprint breaks its sales record with Palm Pre
> 
> Sprint Nextel executives said Monday that the launch of the much anticipated Palm Pre on Saturday hit a new sales record for the company.
> 
> ...


----------



## jæd (Aug 18, 2009)

editor said:


> So you keep saying but you seem to be basing that opinion on, well, nothing at all as far as I can see: US sales figures are yet to be released, and there's been no announcement of a European release, or any details about their marketing strategy or pricing.
> 
> FYI, the Pre broke its carriers sales record when it launched in the US.





> *Neither Sprint nor Palm is discussing specific sales figures*, but Tim Donahue, vice president of business marketing for Sprint, said that the launch exceeded the company's expectations.



Without specific sales figures, that's pretty much meaningless PR speak.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 18, 2009)

jæd said:


> Without specific sales figures, that's pretty much meaningless PR speak.



Yep, I'm just going on gut feeling, and freely admit I've no hard data...


----------



## editor (Aug 18, 2009)

jæd said:


> Without specific sales figures, that's pretty much meaningless PR speak.


The figures would certainly help, but unless Sprint are lying through their teeth about the success of the launch, then they're a long way from the gloomy failure that KE keeps banging on about.

I've no idea what he's basing this mysterious "gut feeling" on either.


----------



## editor (Aug 18, 2009)

Pam have announced the acceptance criteria for their app store. Happy to note there seems to be no  "duplicate functionality" restrictions which means Pam users will be able to enjoy rival browsers, email clients etc.



> Acceptance Criteria
> 
> Palm will accept apps into the beta test program based on the following criteria:
> 
> ...


----------



## grit (Aug 18, 2009)

editor said:


> FYI, the Pre broke its carriers sales record when it launched in the US.



That doesnt carry much weight considering they are the ugly red headed stepchild of us cellular telecoms.


----------



## grit (Aug 18, 2009)

editor said:


> I've no idea what he's basing this mysterious "gut feeling" on either.



I'd imagine its the same thing as a few posters here along with the general industry analysts.

They are coming in late into a market that has very high barriers to entry for them.

They dont have the cash lying around to give the massive marketing push that they need to even get their brand awareness in the same ballpark as their competitors.

They paired up with an operator that quite possibly can be considered one of the worst networks in the US.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 18, 2009)

grit said:


> I'd imagine its the same thing as a few posters here along with the general industry analysts.
> 
> They are coming in late into a market that has very high barriers to entry for them.
> 
> ...



Indeed.


----------



## editor (Aug 18, 2009)

grit said:


> I'd imagine its the same thing as a few posters here along with the general industry analysts.


Could you point me in the direction of a single analyst who has predicted the Pre "flopping" in Europe, or that Palm don't have the "hunger" to adequately promote the product, please? Thanks.


----------



## grit (Aug 18, 2009)

editor said:


> Could you point me in the direction of a single analyst who has predicted the Pre "flopping" in Europe, or that Palm don't have the "hunger" to adequately promote the product, please? Thanks.



My post was regarding the issues they face in both markets. the market has revised their expectations downwards. they can be as hungry as they want doesn't mean they will get the sales they need. with the negative estimations we are seeing it's logical that they transfer to their possible performance in their least strong market

on a side note can't wait to see how this thread blows up once the offical figures are released


----------



## editor (Aug 18, 2009)

grit said:


> My post was regarding the issues they face in both markets.


Oh, OK. It rather looked like you'd piped up to support KE's "hunch" that Palm was going to "flop" in Europe (before they'd even announced a release date or pricing) and that there was no hope for the company.


grit said:


> on a side note can't wait to see how this thread blows up once the offical figures are released


I'm not sure what you mean. Why should it "blow up"? I expect the sales to be reasonable and probably in the middle ground of the various analyst estimations, but nowhere near that of the iPhones.

Mind you, I can't say I've ever had a technology buying decision made by the popularity of a device*, so even if the sales figures prove disappointing for Palm, I'll still judge the handset on its merits alone and buy accordingly.

(*unless there was a real chance that it was going to be made obsolete in the near future, of course)


----------



## grit (Aug 18, 2009)

wouldn't use the term flop but I think the face bigger challenges in Europe than the us, so if the us goes badly or not as well as they hope it seems reasonable that they will do worse in Europe

the blow up comment was an observation about the fact there is a healthy (and fun!) debate going on when we can only speculate I imagine it to go up a gear once we have real numbers to throw at each other


----------



## editor (Aug 18, 2009)

grit said:


> wouldn't use the term flop but I think the face bigger challenges in Europe than the us


You don't say?!!


----------



## grit (Aug 18, 2009)

editor said:


> You don't say?!!



Oh back into this mode, ok I'm taking another breather from this thread.


----------



## editor (Aug 19, 2009)

A wee snippet of news.


> First, in the dearth of Pre sales numbers, a disproportionate amount of our posts have been based on analyst conjecture -- which had led to plenty of consternation.  Recently, though, Palm let us know that there's an analyst report based on _fact_ and _testing_ that's worth pointing out. Ken Dulaney of Gartner Research recently upgraded the company's enterprise category for the Pre from "Concierge" to "Appliance" thanks to Palm's addition of Remote Wipe and Password complexity requirements:
> _ We have tested these policies on the device, and they have passed our tests. We will now categorize the Palm Pre, along with Research In Motion's BlackBerry, Windows Mobile devices, Nokia E-Series phones and Apple iPhones in the appliance category. _​Gartner uses three levels to categorize smartphones: "Concierge" for basic business requirements, "Appliance" for heavy-duty business use (Blackberry wins out here), and "Platform" for the really hardcore stuff (Windows Mobile is the leader here).  The Appliance level is the main level, so it's great to see the Pre graduate to it.
> 
> http://www.precentral.net/palm-pre-and-business-upgraded-more-upgrades-come



Oh, and the Palm 'Eos' phone that was supposedly delayed is now being touted as being on schedule for an autumn release.
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=15537&news=Palm+Eos+Pre+webOS+ATT+Pixie+Compal


----------



## g force (Aug 19, 2009)

That just make me hate Gartner and their terms even more..."concierage" doesn't even relate to the other two category names!


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2009)

Bish bosh! Palm are having a go at Apple again!





> Former Palm Inc. Chief Executive Officer Ed Colligan rejected a proposal from Apple Inc.’s Steve Jobs to refrain from hiring each other’s employees two years ago, calling it wrong and “likely illegal,” according to their communications.             Colligan, who stepped down as CEO in June, discussed the matter with Jobs in August 2007, as the mobile-phone war heated up, according to the communications. Apple had introduced the iPhone two months earlier, just as Palm hired a former Apple executive, Jon Rubinstein, to develop new smart phones. Jobs, Apple’s CEO, told Colligan he was concerned that Rubinstein was recruiting Apple employees. “We must do whatever we can to stop this,” Jobs said in the communications.
> 
> The U.S. Justice Department is investigating possible collusion in hiring among technology companies, a person familiar with the probe said in June. Derick Mains, a spokesman for Palm, said the company hasn’t been contacted by the Justice Department. Bloomberg News reviewed the communications between Jobs and Colligan.
> 
> ...


Usual bunfight: http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/20/palms-colligan-rebuffs-steve-jobs-likely-illegal-plea-to-sto/


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2009)

The homebrew apps are slowly growing in number and Palm have been taking a positive  interest: 





> ...we hear that many of the developers who have apps in our Gallery have been contacted by Palm and will be getting their apps into the official App Catalog! When that happens, some apps will continue in Homebrew as Beta versions so you can test their future updates, some will be 'Graduates' where you can see them in the Gallery but download them from the official App Catalog. Congrats developers!
> 
> http://www.precentral.net/webos-qui...ngs-new-featuresand-end-rooting-required-apps


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Aug 24, 2009)

well I am now back in the running to be a Pre owner (managed to get an old centro working - sort of) ... it is good to hear that the Apps are expanding, would like moar! For instance just this morning I was reading about a basic and cheap teleprompter app for iphone which I'd like

and I'm still in need of a LifeBalance synch for the pre

so I guess I am hoping for an exponential leap in Pre apps..or at least a real belief that this is on its way

my next phone will either be Pre or iPhone..interestingly I'm wondering whether the apple tablet rumours would mean I could get all the iphone apps I crave on a tablet..and have a pre as my phone..we'll see


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> well I am now back in the running to be a Pre owner (managed to get an old centro working - sort of) ... it is good to hear that the Apps are expanding, would like moar! For instance just this morning I was reading about a basic and cheap teleprompter app for iphone which I'd like


I'm still holding on for the Pre. I'm enjoying my Android phone but there's a lot I miss about the Palm and even the latest HTC Magic phone has failed to topple the Pre in a recent 'face off': 

http://reviews.cnet.com/4370-6454_7-877-101.html

There's certainly some apps coming through, but there's always going to be something of an 'early adopter' battle when you move to a new OS. 

The fact that I'll be able to sync with Agendus makes me v. happy indeed though!


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Aug 24, 2009)

this seems to suggest i might be able to synch lifebalance on the pre...

http://motionapps.blogspot.com/

· Ability to use custom conduits and desktop applications that are syncing their data between desktop and phone through HotSync


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2009)

Nice. Someone's created a virtual keyboard for the Palm.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9879/palm-pre-webos-virtual-keyboard-install-guide/


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Aug 25, 2009)

nice indeed. have sent that on to the people who do the cykey keyboard..hoping they will port it to Pre, virtually


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Aug 26, 2009)

cykey people wrote back to say they thought it was not possible as they imagined that the Pre will only take one press at a time..whereas the cykey system is all about chords/lots of presses at a time...I wonder if there is really any reason the Pre could not do that?

he also said he was waiting for the apple tablet with baited breath as he felt sure that would be able to do it...hmmm


----------



## editor (Aug 27, 2009)

The Pre's camera gets a very positive review in this camera phone face off. The most important thing to me is the speed - and the reviewer says that it's the fastest she's ever used.





> Palm Pre: The Pre ($200 with a two-year Sprint Nextel contract and mail-in rebate) is a strong smart phone, and on closer inspection I learned it also has a great, simple camera.
> 
> The Pre's 3-megapixel camera is frill-free: Its only real feature is the ability to turn its flash on or off or put it on auto.
> 
> ...


The other good news is that Google look set to release a native Google Voice app for the Pre. 
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9882/native-google-voice-app-in-the-works/

It's just launched in Canada and there's a rather good couple of videos showing it off:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9882/native-google-voice-app-in-the-works/


----------



## Crispy (Aug 27, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> cykey people wrote back to say they thought it was not possible as they imagined that the Pre will only take one press at a time..whereas the cykey system is all about chords/lots of presses at a time...I wonder if there is really any reason the Pre could not do that?
> 
> he also said he was waiting for the apple tablet with baited breath as he felt sure that would be able to do it...hmmm


He probably thinks the screen is resistive - ie. one 'touch' at a time. the pre has a capacative screen, so can be multi touch and therefor supports chording. There's not really enough space on the screen for that sort of thing though is there?


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Aug 27, 2009)

thanks - I've just written to tell him about the capacitative screen (sp?)...small though it is - it would be a compromise yes


----------



## editor (Aug 29, 2009)

The rumours continue to suggest an October 30th UK launch. 
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/techno...re-uk-launch-on-30th-october-115875-21631921/



> According to their source, the Palm Pre will be priced identically to the iPhone - although they couldn’t confirm if this meant the iPhone 3G or 3GS.


It would be a _huge_ mistake to price it the same as the 3GS. I can't imagine many punters being tempted to go for the unknown Pre when it's priced the same as the massively advertised, beautifully designed and well received 3GS.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Aug 29, 2009)

price sigh


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 30, 2009)

nothing to see here


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 30, 2009)

If they price like the iPhone Palm will be royally fucked in the UK. There's no way it can compete against that level of desirability...


----------



## editor (Aug 31, 2009)

Some mysterious Palm model numbers have appeared in Sprint's inventory, fuelling speculation that there could be other versions of the Pre coming and/or the Eos. 

http://www.precentral.net/new-palm-phones-sprint-inventory-p120-and-c40


----------



## editor (Sep 5, 2009)

Lots of nice tweaks coming in now: LED notifications for missed calls/texts etc  (I *really* like this), image saving & URL copying  and improved zoom on text-entry fields with email searching on the way.

The developers community is developing fast too,  with almost 200 homebrew apps with over 1 million downloads.

http://www.precentral.net/webos-12-brings-led-notifications
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9887/video-of-palm-pre-webos-12-in-action/


----------



## jæd (Sep 9, 2009)

Palm "Pixie" announced : http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/09/the-palm-pixi-is-official-headed-to-sprint-this-holiday-season/ Not for the fat-fingured.

Looks like the same specs and still CDMA so I'm not holding my breath for it over here...

Oh, and the iTunes event later might lock the Pre out of iTunes again. So be ready to have the same old argument again... 

Still no App Store...?


----------



## g force (Sep 9, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> If they price like the iPhone Palm will be royally fucked in the UK. There's no way it can compete against that level of desirability...



IT's a tricky one....iPhone is seen as a premium piece of kit, Palm view the Pre as the same but they also need to tempt people so it's a real balancing act.

The need people using it, showing their mates etc nothing beats good word of mouth. If it's a similar price to the Curve on Vodafone they should be okay as it's a nicer looking handset but going head-to-head with Apple on pricing is just dumb whatever Palm think their brand and new handset is worth.


----------



## grit (Sep 9, 2009)

jæd said:


> Not for the fat-fingured.



You weren't joking were you, I'd imagine anyone with anything other than tiny hands would have issues using that keyboard. fail.

Pricing the Pre to be the same as the iphone is retarded, its not tricky at all.


----------



## jæd (Sep 9, 2009)

grit said:


> You weren't joking were you, I'd imagine anyone with anything other than tiny hands would have issues using that keyboard. fail.



I think Engadget got the name wrong. Its a Palm _for_ Pixies...



grit said:


> Pricing the Pre to be the same as the iphone is retarded, its not tricky at all.



Thankfully they didn't release the 4gb version...


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2009)

jæd said:


> Still no App Store...?


Eh? The Palm launched with an App Store running, although they haven't implemented the commercial part (as a point of reference, it took Apple over a year to get their app store running after the release of the iPhone so I guess these things take time. The Palm paid app store is now in beta).



grit said:


> You weren't joking were you, I'd imagine anyone with anything other than tiny hands would have issues using that keyboard. fail.
> 
> Pricing the Pre to be the same as the iphone is retarded, its not tricky at all.


Engadget describes the keyboard as "definitely usable" and if US Centro sales are anything to go by, most people will have no problem adjusting to it. Oh, and the Pre UK pricing hasn't actually been confirmed.

For a low-end smartphone, Pixi looks very promising - that first preview seems positive enough -  but pricing will be critical.

Interface video: http://www.viddler.com/explore/engadget/videos/588/


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2009)

Here's the Pixi specs. It's very thin. Big win for the removable battery and SD card slot, but the lack of wi-fi means it won't float my boat. I guess that's not such an issue if you've got a good 3G connection (come to think of it, I rarely use the wi-fi on my phone).









> Palm Pixi Features
> 
> * High-speed connectivity (EVDO Rev. A)
> * 2.63-inch multi-touch screen with a vibrant 18-bit color 320x400 resolution TFT display
> ...


Gizmodo's pretty positive quick review here: http://gizmodo.com/5355112/palm-pixi-hands-on-the-smaller-pre-with-a-better-keyboard-and-no-wi+fi



> What I saw was good. It's the same OS, so you can do everything you could do before, but the ball is replaced by a touch "area"—the same area you'd use for the off-screen forward and back gestures before. Just tap it and you get the same effect as the Pre. And in all the apps I saw there wasn't a huge difference in speed between the two devices.
> 
> What's most surprising is that even though the keyboard is technically smaller on the Pixi than on the Pre, each key is more raised because there's no sliding lid to maintain clearance of. So even though the keys are slightly different and smaller, I was able to thumb out words faster and with fewer errors than before. High five.
> 
> Overall, it's definitely slimmer, lighter and more pocketable than the Pre. It has almost all the same features—no Wi-Fi won't affect your ability to download apps or music—so you're not missing on that much stuff if for some reason you choose the Pixi over the Pre. But when asked about whether or not you can run the same number of apps simultaneously, multitasking, as on the Pre, I was once again met with what amounted to "no comment." Think of it like a less pricey computer.


----------



## Radar (Sep 9, 2009)

What SD card slot ?? 

I can't find any mention of one in the available reviews or specs.


----------



## g force (Sep 9, 2009)

Specs look good and jesus that thing is tiny!!!


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2009)

Radar said:


> What SD card slot ??


The one I must have made up! Sorry about that.  

Edit to add: it looks like it will be coming to the UK too, some time or another.
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/26986/palm-pixi-headed-europe-o2-interested

First TV ad for the phone: http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/26985/palm-advert-meet-palm-pixi


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## jæd (Sep 9, 2009)

editor said:


> The one I must have made up! Sorry about that.
> 
> Edit to add: it looks like it will be coming to the UK too, some time or another.
> http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/26986/palm-pixi-headed-europe-o2-interested
> ...



"Palm is not giving any details at this time about Palm Pixi availability in Europe and Canada; however, Palm does plan to bring Palm Pixi to both regions as soon as it can and will announce more when appropriate"

Given that they will have to get a GSM version out I'd suspect improvement in Mr Satan's working conditions before I see one on the Tube... 

Having a SD-card would've made up for the lack of wifi. _If_ this thing is even remotely pushed as a Blackberry replacement its full of fail.


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2009)

jæd said:


> _If_ this thing is even remotely pushed as a Blackberry replacement its full of fail.


Where have you seen that suggested or even hinted at by Palm? Nowhere, that's where!

It's going for the same low-end market as their hugely successful Centro


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 9, 2009)

I think Palm made a mistake not including an SD slot with the Pre, especially as its only got 8gb. The way the price of flash memory falls it means you can upgrade cheaply 6-12 months after getting the phone.

Roll on 32gb Micro SD.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 9, 2009)

g force said:


> IT's a tricky one....iPhone is seen as a premium piece of kit, Palm view the Pre as the same but they also need to tempt people so it's a real balancing act.
> 
> The need people using it, showing their mates etc nothing beats good word of mouth. If it's a similar price to the Curve on Vodafone they should be okay as it's a nicer looking handset but going head-to-head with Apple on pricing is just dumb whatever Palm think their brand and new handset is worth.



Agreed, yet another person is now wanting an iPhone because of me getting one. Everyone that has a play with it loves it and ask how much it costs etc with a real view to getting one.


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## editor (Sep 9, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> I think Palm made a mistake not including an SD slot with the Pre, especially as its only got 8gb. The way the price of flash memory falls it means you can upgrade cheaply 6-12 months after getting the phone.
> 
> Roll on 32gb Micro SD.


They've said that the Pre is only the first of a whole range of webOS  phones coming out, so I'd imagine there's going to be handsets with SD slots/more memory on the horizon.

8GB will be fine for me, but I'll sorely miss an SD card slot.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 9, 2009)

I gotta say I wouldn't relish the idea of answering the question "What phone is that?" with the words "It's a Palm Pixi" either!


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## editor (Sep 9, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I gotta say I wouldn't relish the idea of answering the question "What phone is that?" with the words "It's a Palm Pixi" either!


If you're bothered by that, them perhaps you're too cool for school.

Elsewhere, there's now over 200 Palm homebrew apps available, notching up 1,245,000 downloads in three weeks.


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## Radar (Sep 10, 2009)

editor said:


> but I'll sorely miss an SD card slot.


Yeah, i was gobsmacked with the original pre announcement that there was no sd variant slot, and even moreso with today's news

I've always been a palm afficiando <fnarr fnarr>, but won't be considering the pre or derivatives with my own money until the lack of storage has been addressed.

Hopefully they'll get it sorted sooner rather than later.


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## editor (Sep 10, 2009)

Radar said:


> Yeah, i was gobsmacked with the original pre announcement that there was no sd variant slot, and even moreso with today's news


What phone do you currently use? To be honest, 8GB will be fine for me for now.


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## jæd (Sep 10, 2009)

editor said:


> What phone do you currently use? To be honest, 8GB will be fine for me for now.



I wonder if you'll be still be saying that if/when a 16 Gb Palm Pre comes out...


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## Crispy (Sep 10, 2009)

hang on, the pixi has a 360x400 screen and the pre has a 360x480 screen

this really screws with app developers. now they have to target two screen sizes. This is exactly the sort of thing that kills development - multiple hardware targets. Especially for games.


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## jæd (Sep 10, 2009)

Crispy said:


> hang on, the pixi has a 360x400 screen and the pre has a 360x480 screen
> 
> this really screws with app developers. now they have to target two screen sizes. This is exactly the sort of thing that kills development - multiple hardware targets. Especially for games.



Since its CSS it _should_ be fluid anyway. I'd be more wary of the change in CPU.

Does make things a bit tricky. (Why do you think Android phones all look the same...?)


----------



## grit (Sep 10, 2009)

I havent looked into the palm sdk, but ive heard its all run on html/css/js. So just use em/% in your css and it should adapt reasonably easy.

Edit: what jaed said.


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## Crispy (Sep 10, 2009)

CSS - that's fine for websites. When you've made a custom piece of art to frame your game, for instance, there's no convenient way to shrink it down. Absolute screen position is _required_ for many apps. By changing the screen size, developers have to take account of it everywhere.

I thought they'd done really well by choosing 360x480 and a capacative touchscreen as it maintained parity with the iphone to encourage ports or parallel development.


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## editor (Sep 10, 2009)

jæd said:


> I wonder if you'll be still be saying that if/when a 16 Gb Palm Pre comes out...


Naturally, I'd always like more memory, but I'm not going to refuse to buy the phone because it 'only' comes with 8GB.



Crispy said:


> hang on, the pixi has a 360x400 screen and the pre has a 360x480 screen
> 
> this really screws with app developers. now they have to target two screen sizes. This is exactly the sort of thing that kills development - multiple hardware targets. Especially for games.


The webOS is specifically designed to be fluid:



			
				Palm said:
			
		

> Palm webOS is designed to run on a variety of hardware with different screen sizes, resolutions and orientations...
> http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1761


Their 'cards' interface seems to have scaled down with no problems and all the 'hands on' reviews thus far seem to have been positive.


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## Crispy (Sep 10, 2009)

Yes, I understand. That works wonders for apps that are not dependent on every pixel being on the right place.

Maybe palm are just going to say that no apps of this type will ever be supported on webOS. A very bad move, IMO.


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## editor (Sep 10, 2009)

It's a bit out of date, but this piece on mobile screen sizes is interesting:
http://sender11.typepad.com/sender11/2008/04/mobile-screen-s.html

There's not many platforms with only one screen size.


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## Crispy (Sep 10, 2009)

editor said:


> It's a bit out of date, but this piece on mobile screen sizes is interesting:
> http://sender11.typepad.com/sender11/2008/04/mobile-screen-s.html
> 
> There's not many platforms with only one screen size.


which is precisely why apple have not messed around with theirs


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## editor (Sep 10, 2009)

Crispy said:


> which is precisely why apple have not messed around with theirs


Apple don't produce low end phones though and the Pixi is aimed at a totally different demographic (if the speculated low price turns out to be true). 

I predict that the Pixi will sell very well indeed and there'll be no shortage of useful apps to entice users. It'll never compete with the iPhone as a gaming handset, but there again, I see nothing to suggest that it's even trying to.

Edit to add two links: 

Building Applications for WebOS, not the Pre
http://treo.discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=202141

Effective Design for Multiple Screen Sizes
http://mobiforge.com/designing/story/effective-design-multiple-screen-sizes


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## editor (Sep 10, 2009)

Biff! Palm's rejects its first app 'for the current time' from its App catalog for using an undocumented API.

Users will, of course, still be able to freely download the app from the Homebrew site when it's completed without fear of a 'bricking' for their troubles or having to fanny about with the jailbreaking dance. 

http://www.precentral.net/nanplayer-rejected-app-catalog


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## grit (Sep 10, 2009)

editor said:


> Biff! Palm's rejects its first app 'for the current time' from its App catalog for using an undocumented API.
> 
> Users will, of course, still be able to freely download the app from the Homebrew site when it's completed without fear of a 'bricking' for their troubles or having to fanny about with the jailbreaking dance.
> 
> http://www.precentral.net/nanplayer-rejected-app-catalog



Eh just looking at the homebrew site and up to recently you did have to hack/jailbreak the phone to install homebrew apps.

edited to add: So it seems to be going pretty much the same path as the iPhone. Bit of a pain in the arse to jailbreak at the start and then the process gets streamlined.


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## jæd (Sep 10, 2009)

I love the:



> We have our first report of an app rejected from Palm's app catalog, but at least there's a clear and understandable (if somewhat maddening) reason.



if this was Apple it would be:



> We have our usual report of an app rejected from Apple's App Store, and at there's the usual unfounded Apple-bollocks of a reason (Apple are c-unts lolz)


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## editor (Sep 10, 2009)

jæd said:


> I love the:
> 
> 
> 
> if this was Apple it would be:


Yeah, it's exactly the same.

LOL.


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## Radar (Sep 10, 2009)

editor said:


> What phone do you currently use? To be honest, 8GB will be fine for me for now.


An ancient motorola, and to be fair that only has a max of a 2Gb micro SD expansion.

I just like the idea of whacking a huge micro SD in there and using it as a photo/music/ISO store.


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## jæd (Sep 10, 2009)

Radar said:


> An ancient motorola, and to be fair that only has a max of a 2Gb micro SD expansion.
> 
> I just like the idea of whacking a huge micro SD in there and using it as a photo/music/ISO store.



Don't worry. 8 Gb will be all you need. Lol.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 11, 2009)

8 gigs? Lol have almost that in films on my iPhone! Man I wish there was a 64gigger...


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## editor (Sep 11, 2009)

jæd said:


> Don't worry. 8 Gb will be all you need. Lol.


How much storage do you think the average phone user needs then?

Oh look! Palm have just approved a Google Voice app for their app store. That's handy.


> It looks like it isn't just bluster from Palm when it comes to thinking differently about its app approval policy. Besides taking a pretty healthy stance on applications that deviate from its current standards, today 10 new titles have shown up for download... a Google Voice app being one of them. gDial Pro, a piece of software which started its life as a homebrew application, is now an official part of the beta store. The program lets you access Google Voice's full feature set (including a dialer), and no one seems very bothered by it.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/10/third-party-google-voice-app-hits-the-webos-app-catalog/



And here's Palm's response to the developer of the app they rejected from the app store. Spot the difference with you-know-who's attitude!


> Well, how about that -- Palm Developer Community Manager Chuq Von Rospach has taken the time to respond to earlier reports of NaNplayer's rejection from the App Catalog, and he's surprisingly cool about it. As we'd heard, the underlying issue is that NaNplayer uses private APIs that will change in a future version of webOS, so Palm doesn't want apps built on them. That's understandable, but here's where Palm's doing it right: Chuq says that Palm is happy for NaNplayer "to continue life as a homebrew application until we get to the point where we can release public, supportable APIs for the functionality that it requires." That's the sort of hacker-friendly compromise we can get behind -- anyone in Cupertino taking notes?
> 
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/10/palm-responds-to-nanplayer-rejection-we-are-happy-for-it-to-co/


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## editor (Sep 11, 2009)

Woohoo!
The Palm Pre launches in the UK next week!

Oh, hang on. It's one of those journo things. Bah.

http://www.t3.com/news/palm-pre-uk-teaser-event-scheduled-for-next-week?=40833


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## jæd (Sep 13, 2009)

editor said:


> Woohoo!
> The Palm Pre launches in the UK next week!
> 
> Oh, hang on. It's one of those journo things. Bah.
> ...



Um, perhaps not:

From the article linked to above:



> The smartphone will be on show in the UK next week, but Palm still refuses to give an actual launch date...



It Pro Portal goes on to say:



> Palm has confirmed that it won't be launching its Pre smartphone next week during the Playbite 2009 event, contrary to an article that has appeared online.
> 
> A spokesperson for the company told tech website V3 that the event to which an article published in PC Advisor referred to was Playbite, which will be held on the 15th (ed: the same day as Motorola is launching its Android Dext in the UK).
> 
> Read more: http://www.itproportal.com/portal/n...palm-denies-early-uk-pre-debut/#ixzz0R1mKAcOm


----------



## editor (Sep 14, 2009)

jæd said:


> Um, perhaps not:


Like I said, it's a journo thing and the Palm Pre will be on show there.  I'm going, in fact!

Elsewhere, what appears to the updated  Palm App catalogue interface looks very slick indeed:







http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/14/is-this-palms-revamped-app-catalog/


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## editor (Sep 15, 2009)

I *finally* got to play with a Palm Pre today and it really is a lovely, lovely handset - and it's tiny too!

The screen is incredibly sharp and the interface is extremely slick - easily the rival of the iPhone and light years ahead of Android.

I'll post up a full 'hands on report' on the all-new tech site later: www.wirefresh.com


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## Piers Gibbon (Sep 15, 2009)

as I get closer to having to choose between the Pre and an iphone I find myself with a horribly uneasy feeling that synching my mac and a Pre might be not entirely straightforward

what with the broken iTunes link, the lack of LifeBalance conduit, and the whole cloud thing being a bit new and scary


----------



## editor (Sep 15, 2009)

What problems do you think you'll have syncing the Pre with your Mac?


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## jæd (Sep 16, 2009)

editor said:


> I *finally* got to play with a Palm Pre today and it really is a lovely, lovely handset - and it's tiny too!
> 
> The screen is incredibly sharp and the interface is extremely slick - easily the rival of the iPhone and light years ahead of Android.
> 
> I'll post up a full 'hands on report' on the all-new tech site later: www.wirefresh.com



Good you finally got to see one. I'm sure we all look forward to your balanced and objective review on that website.



Piers Gibbon said:


> as I get closer to having to choose between the Pre and an iphone I find myself with a horribly uneasy feeling that synching my mac and a Pre might be not entirely straightforward
> 
> what with the broken iTunes link, the lack of LifeBalance conduit, and the whole cloud thing being a bit new and scary



MissingSync looks like it will handy. I used the previous version for my Treo when I realised Palm's last sync tool was crap. Unlike Palm, the developer is gave out regular updates to the sync-tool...!


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Sep 16, 2009)

yes I'm guessing Missing Synch would be the way to go for Pre/Mac synch
and that's partly what's making me nervous as I'm not so impressed with my two years of using that on my Centro
it's this as well - the broken iTunes link, the lack of LifeBalance conduit, and the whole cloud thing being a bit new and scary

none are definite dealbreakers...but just make me nervous


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## grit (Sep 16, 2009)

jæd said:


> Good you finally got to see one. I'm sure we all look forward to your balanced and objective review on that website.


----------



## editor (Sep 16, 2009)

jæd said:


> Good you finally got to see one. I'm sure we all look forward to your balanced and objective review on that website.



Glad you're looking forward to it so keenly. Here's the review: http://www.wirefresh.com/?p=80


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## jæd (Sep 16, 2009)

editor said:


> Glad you're looking forward to it so keenly. Here's the review: http://www.wirefresh.com/?p=80



So that's a review of a phone based on a "play" at the tiny manufacturers booth by way of a tech junket..? Right...


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## editor (Sep 16, 2009)

jæd said:


> So that's a review of a phone based on a "play" at the tiny manufacturers booth by way of a tech junket..? Right...


There really is no end to your attempts to put me down, is there? First you cast aspirations on my integrity by suggesting the review would be biased and now that you've presumably failed to back that one up, you've decided to slag off the _style_ of the review itself. 

FYI: the review is called a "hands on review" and that's exactly what it is. Perhaps the concept escapes you, but  it's quite a popular and common sort of review  on tech sites and gives readers a reviewer's first  impressions of a gadget. Some people find them quite useful/interesting/entertaining.

I already knew an awful lot about the phone and spent a good ten minutes with the device, so I reckon I got a pretty good impression of it capabilities. If  you have any further questions on the Palm Pre, I'd be happy to try and answer them for you.


----------



## jæd (Sep 16, 2009)

editor said:


> FYI: the review is called a "hands on review" and that's exactly what it is. Perhaps the concept escapes you, but  it's quite a popular and common sort of review  on tech sites and gives readers a reviewer's first  impressions of a gadget. Some people find them quite useful/interesting/entertaining.



I'd of thought the review should be entitled "first impressions" rather "hands on". "hands on" IMO (of course) implies you spent more than 10 mins with it. 



editor said:


> I spent a good ten minutes with the device and got a pretty good impression of it capabilities, so if you have any further questions on the Palm Pre, I'd be happy to try and answer them for you.



There's one about 10 ft away from me being used as a novelty paper-weight on my boss's desk. Mostly because its CDMA, and also because I think he may have lost the charger.


----------



## grit (Sep 16, 2009)

Were you able to actually make a call on the thing?


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## editor (Sep 16, 2009)

grit said:


> Were you able to actually make a call on the thing?


I got as far as dialling a number but then the bloke didn't want me chatting to his contact! 

It really was a bit of a slapdash affair, to be honest. Apparently their main guy couldn't make it as his wife had just given birth, so they were going to cancel the event. They decided to reluctantly go ahead anyway rather than piss off journos (and no doubt start off a fresh wave of rumours), so the thing went off a bit half cocked. The rep had just synced his personal contacts to his phone and had only had it himself an hour before the event started.

I gave the phone a really good go though and had - obviously - already read and watched a ton of reviews and videos on the web, so it's not like the phone was a brand new thing to me.


jæd said:


> I'd of thought the review should be entitled "first impressions" rather "hands on". "hands on" IMO (of course) implies you spent more than 10 mins with it.


"Hands on" is just fine for me, thanks. 

But to recap: you don't think I'm capable of an impartial review. You don't feel the review has any credibility and you don't like its title either.  I wonder what you're going to criticise next...


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## Sunray (Sep 16, 2009)

Review seems reasonable to me. 

What was the carrier shown?  I am assuming it was the GSM version rather than a CDMA version for demo purposes?


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## hiccup (Sep 16, 2009)

http://www.wirefresh.com/ seem to be broken (I can see the review, no other pages though).


----------



## editor (Sep 16, 2009)

Sunray;9703444] What was the carrier shown?  I am assuming it was the GSM version rather than a CDMA version for demo purposes?[/QUOTE]It was on the O2 network. The phone had a pre production serial etched on it.[QUOTE=hiccup said:


> http://www.wirefresh.com/ seem to be broken (I can see the review, no other pages though).


Eeek! You're right (gets on case!).

Oh, and as for jaed's 'concerns' about the  supposedly inappropriate use of the phrase 'hands on', here's another review from the same event.


> *PlayBite: Hands-on with the UK/GSM Palm Pre*
> 
> ...In fact, the event was in part billed as the first chance for UK journalists to get a *hands-on* with the Palm Pre...
> http://www.last100.com/2009/09/15/playbite-hands-on-with-the-palm-pre/


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 16, 2009)

Well anyway...moving on...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 16, 2009)

I thought it was a good review, well done with the new site!

The only think I was wondering was how many people wrote the article? You've only credited yourself at the top, but refer to "we" throughout the review.


----------



## editor (Sep 16, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> I thought it was a good review, well done with the new site!
> 
> The only think I was wondering was how many people wrote the article? You've only credited yourself at the top, but refer to "we" throughout the review.


Thanks for your comments. 

It's customary on tech sites (and elsewhere) for reviewers to talk in the third person.


----------



## editor (Sep 17, 2009)

First UK Palm Pre video. It's the same one they've used all over Europe, but they've got some smug toff to do the English voiceover.

http://www.palm.com/uk/en/products/phones/pre/index.html#video


----------



## editor (Sep 17, 2009)

Palm have announced their first quarter results and said that the "vast majority" of the 823,000 phones sold were Pres. They're now dropping WM to concentrate on pure webOS development. They're not out of the woods yet either...



> Palm just announced its first quarter results -- the first to really include numbers from the Pre -- and they're positive (well, depending on how you look at things), with a $2.8m gross profit on $68m in revenue. Actually, that's a little low, since Palm uses the same sort of subscription accounting for the Pre as Apple does for the iPhone, so the unofficial numbers are higher: $100.6m gross profit on $360.7m in revenue.
> 
> Still, we should point out that according to GAAP (you know, the dudes that matter), the outfit had a net loss in fiscal Q1 2010 of $164.5 million, while the non-GAAP net loss was pegged at $13.6 million....
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/17/palm-announces-first-quarter-results-2-8m-profit-on-68m-reven/


----------



## Xanadu (Sep 18, 2009)

editor said:


> Palm have announced their first quarter results and said that the "vast majority" of the 823,000 phones sold were Pres. They're now dropping WM to concentrate on pure webOS development. They're not out of the woods yet either...



GAAP stands for Generally Accepted Accounting Practices.  The article isn't referring to a company/group called GAAP.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2009)

Xanadu said:


> GAAP stands for Generally Accepted Accounting Practices.  The article isn't referring to a company/group called GAAP.


Good to see Engadget still delivering!


----------



## sumimasen (Sep 20, 2009)




----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2009)

Another fresh rumour: Nokia preparing  a takeover bid for Palm.

http://www.precentral.net/nokia-rumored-be-mulling-takeover-bid-palm


----------



## g force (Sep 23, 2009)

TBH that would make a lot of busines sense. Nokia drop their stuff, take on WebOS and get the combined dev teams working on it to accelerate time to market, plus they make pretty nice handsets in terms of quality.


----------



## jæd (Sep 23, 2009)

g force said:


> TBH that would make a lot of busines sense. Nokia drop their stuff, take on WebOS and get the combined dev teams working on it to accelerate time to market, plus they make pretty nice handsets in terms of quality.



Probably make more sense for Motorola to take them over... (If they have the cash...)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 23, 2009)

editor said:


> Another fresh rumour: Nokia preparing  a takeover bid for Palm.
> 
> http://www.precentral.net/nokia-rumored-be-mulling-takeover-bid-palm



That'd raise a few eyebrows...


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Sep 23, 2009)

I've not got any knowledge on takeovers or whatnot but as a potential Pre purchaser I'd be relieved if Palm and the webOs got some deeper pockets. Right now they look a bit sickly weakly, there's that scary story in wirefresh about the "guy who does the Pre marketing couldn't be here so I'm filling in and don't really know much". There should be a hot team not just one guy. 

It's this kind of way-behindness that scares me away - especially as a Mac user, ending up as a minority of a not-well-supported minority..

I've decided to go with an iPhone for 18 months and see where the Pre is at then

One thing that clinched it for me was this much laughed at slip-on keyboard for the iPhone. I've ordered one and will happily review it for wirefresh when it arrives. 

http://itwinge.com/itwinge.html


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> One thing that clinched it for me was this much laughed at slip-on keyboard for the iPhone. I've ordered one and will happily review it for wirefresh when it arrives.


Cheers!

After having a good play with the Pre, I'm happy to wait a few more weeks for its release. Apparently, the app store has been inundated with programs, so there should be a decent selection available when the handset finally gets released.

I've certainly changed my mind about the need for so many apps - after downloading a ton of cutting edge augmented reality apps for my Android phone and installing endless programs, I've realised that most are just pointless fluff, and some are  no better than just going to a website.

I'm still missing Bonsai, Note Studio and the Agendus something rotten too.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Sep 23, 2009)

yeah..I'm missing LifeBalance and that's it

it's not that LB is some godlike, irreplaceable program...but shifting all my todos, projects and endless random notes to a new Mac+Pre config is just a step too far right now

btw the thing about the iTwinge is not that you have to use it everytime...but that using is a good transition from real to virtual keyboard..and it builds precise muscle memory that's useful even when it's not there

that's the theory anyway


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2009)

It's official: The Palm Pre will be released in the UK in three weeks, on the 16th October.
http://blog.palm.com/palm/2009/09/europe-says-willkommen-failte-and-welcome-to-palm-pre.html

Tariffs here: http://www.o2.co.uk/palmpre They're the same as the 3G 8GB with the same free access to Openzone and The Cloud Wi-Fi hotspots.


----------



## jæd (Sep 24, 2009)

editor said:


> It's official: The Palm Pre will be released in the UK in three weeks, on the 13th October.
> http://blog.palm.com/palm/2009/09/europe-says-willkommen-failte-and-welcome-to-palm-pre.html
> 
> Tariffs here: http://www.o2.co.uk/palmpre They're the same as the 3G 8GB with the same free access to Openzone and The Cloud Wi-Fi hotspots.





> "The webOS phone will be available on 13 October in Germany and on 16 October in the U.K. and Ireland. "



Surely thats on the 16th...?  Another three days to wait...!


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2009)

jæd said:


> Surely thats on the 16th...?  Another three days to wait...!


Yeah, you're right. I was trying to hastily upload the story onto wirefresh at the same time and that's how mistakes happen, Godammit.

(I would normally insert an embarrassed smiley here, but that pink thing is too dreadful to include)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 24, 2009)

editor said:


> It's official: The Palm Pre will be released in the UK in three weeks, on the 16th October.
> http://blog.palm.com/palm/2009/09/europe-says-willkommen-failte-and-welcome-to-palm-pre.html
> 
> Tariffs here: http://www.o2.co.uk/palmpre They're the same as the 3G 8GB with the same free access to Openzone and The Cloud Wi-Fi hotspots.



What do you think of the pricing?


----------



## sumimasen (Sep 24, 2009)

About fucking TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## sumimasen (Sep 24, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> What do you think of the pricing?



Considering that on this thread back on the 7th July I guessed £235 for the handset and you guessed £199, and the price is actually £97.... I for one am pretty chuffed.


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> What do you think of the pricing?


The handset's cheap enough (free to £97 is a pretty good launch price for a high end handset) but I fucking hate 18 month contracts and the monthly tariff is higher than I'd like - even if it is slightly sweetened by the unlimited data and free wi-fi.

At least O2 had the sense to price it the same as the older iPhone 3G 8GB - anything higher would have been crazy. I think they would have been better off pricing it slightly under just to give consumers a reason to go with the comparatively unknown Palm.

I guess it'll boil down to the amount advertising they throw at it. The iPhone has had_ immense _advertising recently.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 24, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Considering that on this thread back on the 7th July I guessed £235 for the handset and you guessed £199, and the price is actually £97.... I for one am pretty chuffed.



I did? Was the pricing just for the handset without tarrif or with tarrif?


----------



## sumimasen (Sep 24, 2009)

No way it could've been priced lower than the old iphone from a marketing POV.  What kind of impression would that have been, for the brand-new breakthrough Pre to not even be 'worth' as much as the lower-end iphone....


----------



## sumimasen (Sep 24, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I did? Was the pricing just for the handset without tarrif or with tarrif?



We were both correct regarding the contract - the £35 600 minute deal.


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2009)

Not entirely sure what a 'mindshare' is, but it seems the Pre is punching way above its weight in the US in it:



> *New study says Palm Pre second only to iPhone 3GS in mindshare*
> 
> Market research firm Interpret recently made some discoveries about public perception of smartphones that should shock, surprise, and amaze you. The just released report, dubbed "Signature Smartphones: Gaining Mindshare in Order to Gain Market Share," reveals that despite being massively disadvantaged in the marketplace, Palm managed to nab a huge chunk of mindshare with the Pre -- in fact, the report suggests that the Pre is number two only to the iPhone 3GS in the metric.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2009)

Video recording hacked for the Palm Pre: http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-pre-gets-hacked-video-recording/
Mozilla coders join Palm have pop at Apple: http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-10361764-264.html


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 25, 2009)

The video looks very nice.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Sep 26, 2009)

Video very cool!
And the openness of the OS seems to be paying dividends in the accelerated speed of apps and tweaks. Has anyone heard any news about an Office suite for Pre. Have realised that is the only other thing I kinda need..


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2009)

Palm have just updated their webOS to 1.2, adding cut, copy, and paste support from the browser and other improvements. Homebrew apps still work fine after the update too.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2009)

Interesting: according to this, Palm's webOS already commands the same size share as Windows worldwide - and the Palm Pre is yet to be released anywhere but the US.







http://www.precentral.net/webos-picking-steam-moble-web


----------



## grit (Oct 1, 2009)

editor said:


> Interesting: according to this, Palm's webOS already commands the same size share as Windows worldwide - and the Palm Pre is yet to be released anywhere but the US.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Using an advertising networks numbers wouldnt be the most reliable.


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2009)

Rarely have I seen tech reporting as bad as this: http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/09/30/pre-faltering-palm-laying-off-employees/

Got to love the Palm update that completely destroys the writer's original assertion. The comments are fun too.


----------



## grit (Oct 2, 2009)

editor said:


> Rarely have I seen tech reporting as bad as this: http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/09/30/pre-faltering-palm-laying-off-employees/
> 
> Got to love the Palm update that completely destroys the writer's original assertion. The comments are fun too.



nevermind, i just remembered there is no point getting into this discussion again. nothing to see move along


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2009)

FYI: the article originally claimed that Palm was laying off employees because the Pre was struggling and the company was "faltering". Then they revised it to say they were laying off employees working on their Windows Mobile division. Then someone pointed out that was because Palm had already announced that they would be stopping all Windows Mobile production.  And then Palm made a statement that they weren't laying anyone off at all. Doh!

The Pre is currently #2 in Amazon's best selling list (and also the only handset that is not free in the top five).


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 2, 2009)

editor said:


> Interesting: according to this, Palm's webOS already commands the same size share as Windows worldwide - and the Palm Pre is yet to be released anywhere but the US.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't get how the graph was put together. If it was Market Share I'd expect to see WinMo a lot higher, if just because of the number of people who get issued one for work and the length of time its been around.


----------



## grit (Oct 2, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> I don't get how the graph was put together. If it was Market Share I'd expect to see WinMo a lot higher, if just because of the number of people who get issued one for work and the length of time its been around.



Its just usage figures from an advertising network, shouldnt really be taken seriously.


----------



## 6_6 (Oct 2, 2009)

i used a Palm Pre couple days ago.
it was crap.  
it was very *slow*, product finsihing is cheap, took me a while to figure how to go 'back' (by sweeping left from center ball).

i'm well disappointed.


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2009)

Global_Stoner said:


> I don't get how the graph was put together. If it was Market Share I'd expect to see WinMo a lot higher, if just because of the number of people who get issued one for work and the length of time its been around.


It's not tremendously accurate at all. 


6_6 said:


> i used a Palm Pre couple days ago.
> it was crap.
> it was very *slow*, product finsihing is cheap, took me a while to figure how to go 'back' (by sweeping left from center ball).
> 
> i'm well disappointed.


Really? Where did you try it? How many cards did you have open?

I found it to be very fast indeed - waaaaay faster than my Android and easily as speedy as an iPhone. Just about all the reviews I've seen have said much the same too.


----------



## g force (Oct 2, 2009)

What did you think of the finish Ed? I found it disappointing TBH but I guess Palm are playing the "get more people to use smartphones" card rather than "replace an iphone" approach. Our IT guys were tempted to get some but the quality/toughness was a real concern as our BlackBerry users are pretty cack-handed


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2009)

It's not up to the luxury lines of the iPhone, but I found it pretty well finished - easily as good as my G1 and as good as most phones I've owned. The top line of the keyboard is a bit fiddly, but easy enough to get used to I reckon.

 The screen is really superb, btw. Better than the iPhone's IMO.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 5, 2009)

Went into my local o2 shop this morning.  I asked whether there would be any demo Pres before the 16th so that I could check it out before the release date.  Shop guy said that the demos would be available on the 16th, but to actual purchase one wouldn't be available till about 10 days after


----------



## g force (Oct 5, 2009)

editor said:


> It's not up to the luxury lines of the iPhone, but I found it pretty well finished - easily as good as my G1 and as good as most phones I've owned. The top line of the keyboard is a bit fiddly, but easy enough to get used to I reckon.
> 
> The screen is really superb, btw. Better than the iPhone's IMO.



Agreed on the screen...it is absolutely stunning. The sliding mechanism however I didn't like as much, but that's personal taste, I hate the G1 for the same reason.


----------



## editor (Oct 5, 2009)

Demo of the Palm Pre running Flash with some multi-tasking action. Nice!

http://www.viddler.com/explore/engadget/videos/658/


----------



## editor (Oct 6, 2009)

Well, here's a few ways in which Palm is differentiating itself from Apple:



> Welcome news for developers tonight: Palm has just concluded a gathering of developers and journalists to officially introduce their new Developer Relations heads to the community, and made two big announcements to boot.
> 
> Firstly, they've announced a new app distribution model that does away with any Big Brother review process. Developers can now upload their applications directly to Palm, who will then return a URL which can be used to access applications directly from the Pre - as simple as that.
> 
> ...




In other words, Palm will let developers fully distribute their apps via the web. Developers will submit their apps to Palm, and Palm will return to them a URL that they can then blog, tweet, do whatever they want to share it. When a person then clicks on that URL they can easily install the app, bypassing any kind of store. And while Palm is providing the URL, it is not going to be reviewing the apps in any way.

http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/0...ee-development-for-open-source-and-free-pres/

Edit to add: the Palm Pixi sure looks lovely. If they shoved on WiFi, I'd prefer it over the Pre.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 6, 2009)

Question aimed at Editor. 

As you know the G1 can get unbearable slow and laggy the more apps you install on it. It's gotten to the point where I must keep my android apps to a minimum so that I don't throw the phone against the wall in frustration. This in contrast to the iphone, which I note on a friend's 3G: tons of apps, and no impact on speed. 

Which camp does the Pre appear to fall in?


----------



## editor (Oct 6, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Question aimed at Editor.
> 
> As you know the G1 can get unbearable slow and laggy the more apps you install on it. It's gotten to the point where I must keep my android apps to a minimum so that I don't throw the phone against the wall in frustration. This in contrast to the iphone, which I note on a friend's 3G: tons of apps, and no impact on speed.
> 
> Which camp does the Pre appear to fall in?


I can only give an opinion based on my brief play with the Pre and what I've read in countless reviews and forum chat posts, but the Pre seems to generally be as nippy as the iPhone. 

My G1 is driving me up the fucking wall. Can't wait to get rid of it, to be honest.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 6, 2009)

Yeah I was VERY impressed with the G1 at the start, but its battery life and its reaction to lots of apps have wilted my love for it.  Glad that there's the Pre to fall back on


----------



## editor (Oct 6, 2009)

The Android Facebook and MySpace apps - all of 'em - are shit compared to the mobile versions of the websites!


----------



## editor (Oct 7, 2009)

Very positive 'first Palm Pre Uk review' in The Times:


> Meet the Palm Pre. This is the real deal, a worthy competitor for the iPhone. Beautiful, easy to use, yet able to do complex tasks, without mimicking Apple.
> 
> If you prefer typing on a keyboard to glass, you will like it. But if you want to carry thousands of songs on your phone, the iPhone remains the better choice.
> 
> ...



http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article6863386.ece


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2009)

I don't see this myself, but... Palm Pre UK launch – bigger than the iPhone’s?


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 13, 2009)

Has anyone felt the device yet?  This video demo says the build quality isn't as good as it should be for a high-end phone.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2009)

Xanadu said:


> Has anyone felt the device yet?  This video demo says the build quality isn't as good as it should be for a high-end phone.


I'ev had a play with the phone,. It wasn't up to the smooth sheen of an iPhone (but that's an exceptionally well built handset), but it felt fine to me, and easily as good as my G1.

http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-pre-uk-hands-on-review/


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 13, 2009)

Forgot to post a link to the video review:

http://www.trustedreviews.com/video/Palm-Pre


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Oct 13, 2009)

trusted reviews guy really didn't get excited by it

he prefers onscreen keyboards..actually there is one available for the Pre I believe


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> trusted reviews guy really didn't get excited by it
> 
> he prefers onscreen keyboards..actually there is one available for the Pre I believe


The proper hardware keyboad is oone of the reasons I'm buying the Pre!

And yes, there is an onscreen keyboard available now (albeit a Homebrew app).


----------



## manifold (Oct 13, 2009)

Went into my local O2 store today to try and reserve one and was told there hadn't been much interest (the iphone sold out) so I could probably stroll in on Friday lunchtime and just pick one up.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2009)

manifold said:


> Went into my local O2 store today to try and reserve one and was told there hadn't been much interest (the iphone sold out) so I could probably stroll in on Friday lunchtime and just pick one up.


Was there any promotional material visible? There's precisely zero mention of the Pre in my local Carphone Warehouse and O2's website is just as bad: it's like handset doesn't exist!

http://www.wirefresh.com/o2s-website-spot-the-palm-pre/


----------



## manifold (Oct 13, 2009)

They may have had a poster up outside, but I went in on a whim when I was hurrying past so I wasn't really paying attention. I think the guy behind the counter was a bit surprised that I'd heard of it.


----------



## grit (Oct 13, 2009)

Everyone seems far more concerned that iPhone will be available on other networks by the looks of things.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 13, 2009)

Oh yeah it's released this Friday, actually forgot! Hmmm been past a few O2 shops recently and not seen any Pre posters in shop windows or instore....


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2009)

grit said:


> Everyone seems far more concerned that iPhone will be available on other networks by the looks of things.


It's strange, because you'd think that with O2 losing exclusivity on the iPhone, they'd be really pushing the one hot phone they _do_ have exclusivity on.


----------



## grit (Oct 13, 2009)

editor said:


> It's strange, because you'd think that with O2 losing exclusivity on the iPhone, they'd be really pushing the one hot phone they _do_ have exclusivity on.



They dont have much faith in it. They have other brands that have far better recognition.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2009)

grit said:


> They dont have much faith in it.


That's a bit of a bold statement there, squire. 

You do realise that O2 would have had to bid for the right to carry the Pre and will most probably* lose their exclusivity deal if they fail to shift enough units?

(this is how many exclusivity deals work: the network promises enough sales to make it economically viable for the manufacturer to grant sole rights. If they fail to reach those targets, they deal can be negated).

Apparently, O2 TV ads start today, and with Pre shifting over a million units in the States already and early positive sales reports from Germany, I can't see what you're basing your 'no faith' claim on....


----------



## grit (Oct 13, 2009)

editor said:


> That's a bit of a bold statement there, squire.
> 
> You do realise that O2 would have had to bid for the right to carry the Pre and will most probably* lose their exclusivity deal if they fail to shift enough units?
> 
> ...



Dont condescend to me please, there is no need. The no faith comment is in reference to the weak marketing support for launch. Your numbers back up my sentiment seeing has 3GS sold a million units on its launch weekend.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2009)

grit said:


> Dont condescend to me please, there is no need. The no faith comment is in reference to the weak marketing support for launch. Your numbers back up my sentiment seeing has 3GS sold a million units on its launch weekend.


You claimed that O2 "didn't have much faith" in the Pre. Could you explain what you're basing that on, please because the marketing is yet to start. 

The sales of the iPhone 3GS are completely irrelevant to your claim.


----------



## grit (Oct 13, 2009)

editor said:


> You claimed that O2 "didn't have much faith" in the Pre. Could you explain what you're basing that on, please because the marketing is yet to start.
> 
> The sales of the iPhone 3GS are completely irrelevant to your claim.



Then so are the Pre numbers to yours 

The fact that the marketing hasnt started yet supports my view, this thing goes on sale in 3 days! By your own admission along with several accounts on this thread it actually seems to be something that we all agree on. There has been no big push, O2 feels their marketing budget is better spent elsewhere.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2009)

grit said:


> Then so are the Pre numbers to yours
> 
> The fact that the marketing hasnt started yet supports my view, this thing goes on sale in 3 days! By your own admission along with several accounts on this thread it actually seems to be something that we all agree on. There has been no big push, O2 feels their marketing budget is better spent elsewhere.


Perhaps Palm/O2's strategy isn't all about generating queues for the launch and they're more interested in long term sales?

I must admit to being a bit baffled by O2's exceedingly low key strategy at the moment, but you're way out of line declaring that O2 'doesn't have much faith in the product'. It's _*way*_ too early to make such a call.


----------



## grit (Oct 13, 2009)

editor said:


> they're more interested in long term sales?



Your good for a laugh I'll give you that


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2009)

grit said:


> Your good for a laugh I'll give you that


It's pretty pointless trying to have an intelligent conversation with you, isn't it? You just make stuff up and then go for the ad hominems.

*sigh


----------



## grit (Oct 13, 2009)

editor said:


> It's pretty pointless trying to have an intelligent conversation with you, isn't it? You just make stuff up and then go for the ad hominems.
> 
> *sigh



Explain the concept of what a long term sales strategy is. OF COURSE palm want people lining up on the streets like the iPhone. 

_Why would they want to delay sales?_


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2009)

grit said:


> Explain the concept of what a long term sales strategy is. OF COURSE palm want people lining up on the streets like the iPhone.
> 
> _Why would they want to delay sales?_


So why isn't every single mobile phone launch stage-managed like Apple's iPhone launches?

Go on. Have a little think about it and see what you can come up with.


----------



## grit (Oct 13, 2009)

editor said:


> So why isn't every single mobile phone launch stage-managed like Apple's iPhone launches?
> 
> Go on. Have a little think about it and see what you can come up with.



Dont deflect, answer the question, why would you want to delay sales.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 14, 2009)

It really is pathetic, you go to o2.co.uk and there is NOTHING ZIP ZILCH NADA there!  It's like the Pre doesn't exist! There's a nice photo, blurb and link to the 3GS in all its glory though.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 14, 2009)

editor said:


> So why isn't every single mobile phone launch stage-managed like Apple's iPhone launches?



My guess would be there just isn't the intrest. Who get excited about a new nokia with a better camera or another winmo smartphone other then geeks. Its credit to apple they have managed to drum up that level of interest in their product.


----------



## grit (Oct 14, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> It really is pathetic, you go to o2.co.uk and there is NOTHING ZIP ZILCH NADA there!  It's like the Pre doesn't exist! There's a nice photo, blurb and link to the 3GS in all its glory though.



According to Editor its all part of Palm's masterplan not to sell any phones.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2009)

grit said:


> Dont deflect, answer the question, why would you want to delay sales.


Why do you think Nokia - the world's biggest seller of phones - don't indulge in iPhone style launch events, complete with crash barriers, high fiving staff and massive press hype? Any ideas?

And why on earth do you think that all phones have massive stocks at launch? Your naivety is breathtaking.


grit said:


> According to Editor its all part of Palm's masterplan not to sell any phones.


You're projecting your own ignorance again.


----------



## grit (Oct 14, 2009)

editor said:


> Why do you think Nokia - the world's biggest seller of phones - don't indulge in iPhone style launch events, complete with crash barriers, high fiving staff and massive press hype? Any ideas?
> 
> And why on earth do you think that all phones have massive stocks at launch? Your naivety is breathtaking.
> You're projecting your own ignorance again.



Still failing to answer that one simple question.

Its fun aswell watching you having to resort to answering questions with questions and insulting me rather than answering.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2009)

grit said:


> Still failing to answer that one simple question.


Silly me was thinking you might be able to think for yourself and work it out. 

I'm feeling generous so read and learn: Palm aren't 'delaying sales' by having a relatively low key launch *because they most likely haven't got enough stocks of the handsets.* This is common with new product launches, unless you have the vast budget of a company like Apple.

Therefore a big launch would backfire spectacularly with punters pissed off with the lack of availability and the whole venture would prove a total PR disaster and a colossal waste of Palm's limited budget. 

What they do have, however, is a phone that many consider to be a worthy alternative to the iPhone, and that's what's really important at this stage.

Better to sell slow and steady than have a half-cocked launch.


----------



## grit (Oct 14, 2009)

editor said:


> Silly me was thinking you might be able to think for yourself and work it out.
> 
> I'm feeling generous so read and learn: Palm aren't 'delaying sales' by having a relatively low key launch *because they most likely haven't got enough stocks of the handsets.* This is common with new product launches, unless you have the vast budget of a company like Apple.
> 
> ...



No company is going to see selling out of stock at launch as a bad thing FFS.

"Oh noes we made too much money too quickly whatever will we do!"

Same thing happened to the iPhone and it didnt seem to be a issue, ditto for Nintendo's Wii. In fact from a marketing buzz point of view its a good thing. It makes the product more exclusive which gets more attention.


----------



## g force (Oct 14, 2009)

You're not really comparing like-for-like there. There was no real competition for the iPhone in what it did and how (please don't argue RIM phones can!!) ie, touchscreen etc, ditto the Wii and its 'family' games and controller.

If there's no Pre's available and people want to buy a phone of that ilk they can easily get an iPhone, HTC, Google and Palm will never see their custom.

That said, I find 02's lack of Pre on their website so close to launch as pretty astounding.


----------



## grit (Oct 14, 2009)

g force said:


> You're not really comparing like-for-like there. There was no real competition for the iPhone in what it did and how (please don't argue RIM phones can!!) ie, touchscreen etc, ditto the Wii and its 'family' games and controller.
> 
> If there's no Pre's available and people want to buy a phone of that ilk they can easily get an iPhone, HTC, Google and Palm will never see their custom.
> 
> That said, I find 02's lack of Pre on their website so close to launch as pretty astounding.



Playstation 3 sold out as well at launch (which had plenty of competition from Xbox) and people didnt suddenly go buy Xbox instead.

Selling products is a good thing. Its the same way you rarely hear web developers complaining about having to scale their services. Scaling problems are good, it means there is more people wanting to give you money than you originally anticipated.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2009)

grit said:


> Playstation 3 sold out as well at launch (which had plenty of competition from Xbox) and people didnt suddenly go buy Xbox instead.


Hello? You're comparing Sony with _Palm? _. Sony are one  of the biggest tech companies on the planet, while Palm are barely heard of in this country  - and they've got one shot to get this right.

A half cocked launch which sees no Pre phones available would be the dumbest idea of all. Interested customers looking for the Pre would simply be sold iPhones/Nokias etc.


g force said:


> You're not really comparing like-for-like there. There was no real competition for the iPhone in what it did and how (please don't argue RIM phones can!!) ie, touchscreen etc, ditto the Wii and its 'family' games and controller.
> 
> If there's no Pre's available and people want to buy a phone of that ilk they can easily get an iPhone, HTC, Google and Palm will never see their custom.


Well, exactly.


----------



## g force (Oct 14, 2009)

grit said:


> Playstation 3 sold out as well at launch (which had plenty of competition from Xbox) and people didnt suddenly go buy Xbox instead.
> 
> Selling products is a good thing. Its the same way you rarely hear web developers complaining about having to scale their services. Scaling problems are good, it means there is more people wanting to give you money than you originally anticipated.



Sony and Playstation have much bigger brand recognition compared to Palm, people were willing to wait for a delayed console.

Now part of that is Palm's fault, which marketing could have fixed...but in the UK is you asked mobile users to name phone brands I'm willing to bet Palm would come pretty low down - behind Apple, BB, Nokia, Sony, HTC, Samsung...maybe even Motorola


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2009)

g force said:


> Sony and Playstation have much bigger brand recognition compared to Palm, people were willing to wait for a delayed console.
> 
> Now part of that is Palm's fault, which marketing could have fixed...but in the UK is you asked mobile users to name phone brands I'm willing to bet Palm would come pretty low down - behind Apple, BB, Nokia, Sony, HTC, Samsung...maybe even Motorola


Indeed. I'd imagine most people have no idea that Palm even make phones, or that they're even an active company. When prompted people might remember the Palm Pilot, but it's very rare you'll see a Centro or Treo phone in the UK.

In the States it's quite a different story, but the company has never enjoyed much brand recognition in the UK and, as you say, they'd probably be one of the last on people's list.

It's simply absurd to try and compare the company with well established, multi national enormo-brands that enjoy a vastly superior market presence here.


----------



## grit (Oct 14, 2009)

Ok Ok, so they need to sell a lot of phones as its their last shot, but not too many because they cant afford for it to be really successful and thus disappointing consumers? 

Is this the summary?


----------



## Radar (Oct 14, 2009)

Anyone see the pre advert on Sky before the Belarus match ?? At least they're doing something


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 14, 2009)

I really hope they do well, its nice to see a company making an OS from the ground up and making their own hardware who isn't apple.

I really hope they do well, but doubt I'll buy a Pre, I'd like to see a model with a decent sized screen.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 15, 2009)

There's a very limp interview on the BBC site with Rubenstein, Palm's chief exec, and an o2 head honcho. 

On a personal level, I don't mind the shockingly poor marketing of the Pre. Means when I go in tomorrow morning I'm not going to find it sold out.


----------



## mack (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm going to have a play with it just to see what the build quality is like, I've seen a few videos where the slider mechanism looks wobbly which would annoy the fuck out of me, and to see if my average sized fingers have any issues with the keys.

It's a toss up now for me between the Pre or HTC Hero chin an'all.


----------



## live_jayeola (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm on O2 already and have been with them for a few years. In Nov I got a Nokia e71 which I am happy to ditch for a Palm. My contract was extended with the new phone.

What's the best way to get my hands on a Palm Pre with a contract? Extend my contract further? I'm happy with O2. Never had to ring customer services to complain.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 15, 2009)

Jayeola I think you should call o2 direct and see what they can do for you.  Being with them a few years = loyal customer.  Hopefully they'll treat you as such!


----------



## g force (Oct 15, 2009)

Say your current handest doesn't meet your needs and the Palm Pre would. If you can't get a new handest you'll have to take your business elsewhere...usually works


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 15, 2009)

Bear in mind however that the iphone and most likely the Pre are premium and therefore untouchable,  i.e their prices are non-negotiable, no matter how loyal a customer you are.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 15, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> There's a very limp interview on the BBC site with Rubenstein, Palm's chief exec, and an o2 head honcho.
> 
> On a personal level, I don't mind the shockingly poor marketing of the Pre. *Means when I go in tomorrow morning I'm not going to find it sold out.*



The iPhone had stupid levels of hype, sold million in its first weekend. I strolled into a Carphone warehouse with no waiting and picked one up on the first day of release. I asked the guy how many they had in stock and he said 'Loads mate'...


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> The iPhone had stupid levels of hype, sold million in its first weekend. I strolled into a Carphone warehouse with no waiting and picked one up on the first day of release. I asked the guy how many they had in stock and he said 'Loads mate'...


If the US release is anything to go by, Palm's infinitely smaller resources may mean that there's a lot less Pre's around on launch day.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm serious, if you go to the o2 website, I will be utterly amazed and impressed if you can find the Pre on that in under 2 minutes.

It's the night before release ffs.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Oct 15, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> I'm serious, if you go to the o2 website, I will be utterly amazed and impressed if you can find the Pre on that in under 2 minutes.
> 
> It's the night before release ffs.



Yes. I had a look at this. I'm baffled by the whole downplaying it stance of 02. and Palm don't seem to have helped much either. It worries me.

Either we'll be surprised over the next few weeks and months..or..or..well I guess it's just not gonna take off as I hoped. 

I'm looking forward to having a go on it in store. IF if if I were to go for it I need to find a To Do list app for it that synchs with a mac desktop. 

argh I'm still vacillating between this and an iPhone..STILL!

My head says iphone due to stable, mature platform and LifeBalance and no synch issues with my mac..less fecking about with geekery above my station...and the general sense I get that apps/linkups/etc will get to iPhone first..

My heart says Pre due to smaller pebbly size, real keyb, open webOs likely to lead to innovs at some point in the future...and a certain pleasure in saying feck off to apple and everybody else's iPhone ;-)


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2009)

Things get even more bizarre if you go into a Carphone Warehouse. _They've never even heard of the Pre!_

http://www.wirefresh.com/carphone-warehouse-and-palm-pre-the-palm-what/


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm starting to wonder whether they've either fecked up stupidly...OR basically looked at it dispassionately (none of that "hope it succeeds, it deserves it" stuff) and simply decided that spending any money/effort on marketing is just not worth it 

so is this phone going to -

a..go crazy with word of mouth
b..trickle along with a few sales

or

c...basically fizzle out


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> I'm starting to wonder whether they've either fecked up stupidly...OR basically looked at it dispassionately (none of that "hope it succeeds, it deserves it" stuff) and simply decided that spending any money/effort on marketing is just not worth it
> 
> so is this phone going to -
> 
> ...


The oddest thing is that it's picked up *tons* of positive reviews, and has been in the press all week, so O2 have only got to shove the thing in the shops.

Maybe the picture will become cleared tomorrow.


----------



## manifold (Oct 15, 2009)

Given the trouble they've been having with network growth, I wonder if O2 are just worried about overloading their system at the moment and the Pre's just launched at the wrong time.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 15, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> I'm starting to wonder whether they've either fecked up stupidly...OR basically looked at it dispassionately (none of that "hope it succeeds, it deserves it" stuff) and simply decided that spending any money/effort on marketing is just not worth it
> 
> so is this phone going to -
> 
> ...



It wouldn't surprise me if it's simply rational economics. 

Perhaps they just looked at the money being poured in along and adjusted how much backing they'd give it?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 15, 2009)

manifold said:


> Given the trouble they've been having with network growth, I wonder if O2 are just worried about overloading their system at the moment and the Pre's just launched at the wrong time.



Hmmm not sure at least going by a recent statement in which they said they should be on top of it within the next six or so weeks...


----------



## grit (Oct 15, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> I'm starting to wonder whether they've either fecked up stupidly...OR basically looked at it dispassionately (none of that "hope it succeeds, it deserves it" stuff) and simply decided that spending any money/effort on marketing is just not worth it



Another way of saying that is that O2 dont have much faith in it.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2009)

grit said:


> Another way of saying that is that O2 dont have much faith in it.


No, it's not actually, so is there any chance of you stopping your endless repeats of this fact-free assertion?


----------



## grit (Oct 15, 2009)

Its the same point, they are not interested in it and hence dont put any money behind it.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 15, 2009)

grit said:


> Its the same point, they are not interested in it and hence dont put any money behind it.



Faith is the wrong term when it comes business. It's rational not blind belief.


----------



## grit (Oct 15, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Faith is the wrong term when it comes business. It's rational not blind belief.



Maybe using the word faith was a poor choice, I should have used confidence.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 15, 2009)

grit said:


> Maybe using the word faith was a poor choice, I should have used confidence.



My point is your talking in emotive terms, no business or businessperson worth their salt works like that. O2 aren't pushing the Pre as much as they could because of how some executive 'feels' about the unit. They're doing it because they've made a business decision to.

Anyway, we've had this dance more than needed, can we move past this now because it really is boring the hell out of me!


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 16, 2009)

Anyone bought a Palm Pre yet then?


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Oct 16, 2009)

I had a look on o2 and carphone warehouse to check the levels of hype and fanfroth on launch day

er....


----------



## mack (Oct 16, 2009)

6 day wait on Expansys!

http://www.expansys.com/d.aspx?i=189165

PC Pro gave it a meh review sighting poor battery life, sluggish UI and flimsy build quality.

Going to the local O2 store at lunch to see if there is anything on display, the windows were devoid of any advertising when I passed this morning.


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Anyway, we've had this dance more than needed, can we move past this now because it really is boring the hell out of me!


Amen to that.  

I'm guessing that there aren't going to be that many units available right now, with the promotion ramping up as supplies grow. I'll try and pick one up in town tomorrow if there's any still available.


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 16, 2009)

mack said:


> 6 day wait on Expansys!
> 
> http://www.expansys.com/d.aspx?i=189165
> 
> ...



Judging from videos I've seen, I doubt the UI is that sluggish.  The flimsy build quality and poor battery life would be a worry.  I'm not carrying a second battery around with me.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 16, 2009)

Guess I'm the first one here with one then!  What do I win?!


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Guess I'm the first one here with one then!  What do I win?!


Tell us more! Where did you get it from?



Xanadu said:


> Judging from videos I've seen, I doubt the UI is that sluggish. The flimsy build quality and poor battery life would be a worry. I'm not carrying a second battery around with me.


By all accounts the battery life is about the same as the iPhone 3G (although you can of course carry spares).

I wouldn't describe the build as 'flimsy' either. It's certainly not Nokia-street tuff, but it seemed OK to me.


----------



## live_jayeola (Oct 16, 2009)

just got a news letter from palm telling me that it's available from O2 /today/.....

.... It's Friday....


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 16, 2009)

I bought it from Westfield o2 shop.  Everyone wearing snazzy Pre t-shirts, big tv screens with Pre.  NOW they advertise!  I've not played about with it yet as I've put it to charge for 5-6 hours.  Staff said they had plenty in stock - though I was the first to get one and there were 3 other people behind me waiting for one.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 16, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Guess I'm the first one here with one then!  What do I win?!



What do you think of it? How's the build? Is that slide out keyboard really that shaky? Er...how does the WebOS handle loads of cards being open at once?


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 16, 2009)

It's solid enough, though I'm treating it with kid gloves as it looks so glossy and shiny.  Not the type of phone you could gently drop on a table, though in a few weeks I'll be chucking it on the bed without too much worry.

Don't know what you mean by a shaky keyboard?  No notion of that.  I've not tried the webOS yet, work is in the way


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 16, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> It's solid enough, though I'm treating it with kid gloves as it looks so glossy and shiny.  Not the type of phone you could gently drop on a table, though in a few weeks I'll be chucking it on the bed without too much worry.
> 
> Don't know what you mean by a shaky keyboard?  No notion of that.  I've not tried the webOS yet, work is in the way



I think he may be referring to the wobble shown in this video review:

http://www.trustedreviews.com/video/Palm-Pre


----------



## grit (Oct 16, 2009)

editor said:


> Amen to that.



Fuck it nevermind, delete my account please.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 16, 2009)

Xanadu said:


> I think he may be referring to the wobble shown in this video review:
> 
> http://www.trustedreviews.com/video/Palm-Pre



Yup that's the one.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 16, 2009)

Xanadu said:


> I think he may be referring to the wobble shown in this video review:
> 
> http://www.trustedreviews.com/video/Palm-Pre



Near miss from squinty eh? It's definitely overpriced, but that WebOS does look very polished.


----------



## Structaural (Oct 16, 2009)

grit said:


> Fuck it nevermind, delete my account please.


----------



## fen_boy (Oct 16, 2009)

I had a play with one at lunch time in the O2 shop in Cambridge.
It was pretty good.
I thought the build quality was fine.
It was reasonably nippy when opening things up, but it was quite heavily locked down so a lot of the apps didn't work.
It was easy to use and accessing most of the functions was pretty intuitive.
The keyboard was much better than I thought it would be, nearly as good as my blackberry.
I'd consider getting one if my contract was due to expire.


----------



## manifold (Oct 16, 2009)

I got one this morning.

I'm happy with it. The build quality is ok, although it was _covered_ in fingerprints almost before I'd got it out of the box. The UI is very intuitive, but can be a little jumpy; certainly not deal-killer territory. I picked the keyboard up almost straight away, although it really is tiny. It's taken me longer to get used to the touchscreen (I'm having a lot of trouble hitting menu's along the top thanks to fat thumbs; but have no trouble with them on the keyboard weirdly).

Will play with it over the weekend and hope the battery lasts (through each day).


----------



## cybertect (Oct 16, 2009)

The Register's review is a bit 'meh' too.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/10/16/review_phone_palm_pre/

They're really not sold on the keyboard.

One iPhone beating feature - you can use the Pre to


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 16, 2009)

Saw the advert on tv and have to say i didn't like it originally but it was really quite watchable. Very different from the usual adverts on the telly...actually made the Pre look good!


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2009)

I got one today too - and bagged a free Touchstone charger  

The keyboard is not perfect but still way, waaay better than any onscreen one, IMO. The camera is *brilliant* - fast as fuck - and the handset is surprisingly small too.

*charging now


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 17, 2009)

How did you get the free touchstone charger?? I s'pose due to industry contacts, or can us commoners get one?!


----------



## live_jayeola (Oct 17, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Guess I'm the first one here with one then!  What do I win?!



* When you are speaking on the phone and pressing your face against the phone, does your face set any keys off? Mine does on my phone and it f*cks me off!

* What's the key board like? Sent any texts or emails yet? Do you have to hit [shift]+[alt]+[blah] to get at any keys like a "£" at all?

* is it really able to do more than one thing at a time?
* Organiser?? Does it have categories for this like all the other Palms did in the old days when I had a Treo?
* Does the contacts have categories?
* Lots more questions but I think I'll have to either buy it from you or rob you!


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 17, 2009)

Honestly I've just not had the time to play with my new toy 

* When you are speaking on the phone and pressing your face against the phone, does your face set any keys off? Mine does on my phone and it f*cks me off!
--- Nope, the phone is face-resistant!

* What's the key board like? Sent any texts or emails yet? Do you have to hit [shift]+[alt]+[blah] to get at any keys like a "£" at all?
--- I like it.  I do have slender fingers, if that's a factor, but I am pretty speedy with the email.  Yep there's a shift button, and a seperate button to activate the numberpad (which I like, the numbers being in 3 x 3 format, rather than across in one row)

* is it really able to do more than one thing at a time?
---Yes, and actually that's the most refreshing thing of the phone that I've noticed.  Click a button and start your new thing, then seamlessly get back to what you were doing.  Big win here.

* Organiser?? Does it have categories for this like all the other Palms did in the old days when I had a Treo?
--- Not tried it, plus this is my first Palm

* Does the contacts have categories?
--- Doesn't look like it.

* Lots more questions but I think I'll have to either buy it from you or rob you!
--- I won't sell


----------



## Radar (Oct 17, 2009)

So, apart from the obligatory OS upgrade what new apps are people installing on their new toys ??

Playing with one in the o2 shop yesterday I was pretty impressed with it. I'm still not chuffed about the lack of memory expansion, but the actual OS footprint on the 8G is pretty small.

I may be heading back there today with a passport and leaving with a pre sized hole in my bank account


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2009)

I'm really impressed with it so far - the user interface is leagues above the Android, and the phone really does feel like a pebble in your hand. 

Early UK review here: http://www.pocket-lint.com/review/4125/palm-pre-mobile-phone-review


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 17, 2009)

I'm hoping I'll be able to check it out today in an O2 store 

Is O2 any good as a network?  How's their 3G network compared to Vodafone and Orange?


----------



## Sunray (Oct 17, 2009)

Using the pre in  the o2 shop and this keyboard is total fail. Too much pressure required for a smalll device  biggest problem is that the window doesnt scroll with the text and apples text editor is so much easier. wow these are sharp edges.

They need to do a touch only one to interest me.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Using the pre in  the o2 shop and this keyboard is total fail. Too much pressure required for a smalll device  biggest problem is that the window doesnt scroll with the text and apples text editor is so much easier. wow these are sharp edges.


I'd rather use the Pre's keyboard than bash away at a unyielding slab'o of glass and I have no problems typing away on it. That's one of the reasons I bought the Pre (along with the multi-tasking and incredible synergy syncing).

My first impressions is that it's a gorgeous little device.


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 17, 2009)

Went into two O2 stores in central London, but didn't see a single Palm Pre on display.  I'm not going to buy a phone unless I can see it in action first.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 18, 2009)

editor said:


> I'd rather use the Pre's keyboard than bash away at a unyielding slab'o of glass and I have no problems typing away on it. That's one of the reasons I bought the Pre (along with the multi-tasking and incredible synergy syncing).
> 
> My first impressions is that it's a gorgeous little device.



The difference is that on an iphone bashing it to type isn't what I would do, very lightly touch is more accurate.

It Pre looks lovely, the card interface is good.  Is that a trackball?  Couldn't see what it did other than a button.  The edges are lethal.

Not scrolling when typing is a really annoying hole in the browser far as I am concerned so its clearly still a work in progress.  This flaw made me yearn to turn it sideways which works but you cant type.  Clicking into text for editing is also lacking, should be more fuzzy and there is no obvious way of positioning the cursor easily apart from touch and that requires fairly serious precision when the text is small.

It does feel very fast and snappy in general use.


Not really a lot gained and a lot lost in the inclusion of a keyboard.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2009)

Sunray said:


> The difference is that on an iphone bashing it to type isn't what I would do, very lightly touch is more accurate.
> 
> It Pre looks lovely, the card interface is good.  Is that a trackball?  Couldn't see what it did other than a button.  The edges are lethal.
> 
> ...


There's a major firmware upgrade coming that fixes a lot of the (very minor) glitches in the Palm.

The edges are not 'lethal,' the keyboard is a great compromise for its size and the massive advantage of using a real keyboard is that a large chunk of the screen isn't obscured whenever you want to type anything. You can precisely position the text using the range key. Cut and paste is about to be improved.

The webOS is unequivocally the best mobile operating system available IMO - spend a little time flicking between open email, web and config windows and everything else seems as clunky as fuck, and the notifications and gesture interfaces are superb. 

That said, the OS is certainly better than the actual phone itself, which can't match the build of the iPhone.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 19, 2009)

Yes webOS is very slick, am enjoying using it.

I've had the weekend to play with it now.  The biggest disappointment, and I can't overstate this, is the shockingly bad app catalog.  Pretty disgraceful actually.  I've not found one app yet worthy of download, and this has soured my recommending this phone. 

Where's an MSN Messenger app? Or Yahoo Messenger app?  Or an app for the tube, buses or railways?  The catalog is also very USA-centric.  Very amateurish, Palm.

Palm claim it's all about quality not quantity, yeah but you need quantity to produce quality.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm still trying to find a friend who has bought the Pre so I can play with it and fall in lurve..

The app-gap is my main concern as well. I think in a year or so it may catch up. I think the Office docs app is being delayed for Pre as well

And I was arguing on wirefresh that it seems to me that whenever a company/software provider/whatever decide to dip a toe in the mobile water they always seem to release an iPhone version as their first go...(please prove me wrong on this, it's only a perception)

Now when it's a free app to publicise a tie-in for a movie then I don't give a toss..but I am Very interested when it is companies like Ocado (who deliver my shopping) and thetrainline (who I'd like to get better at ordering tix in advance from) and Zipcar (who I hire cars from)... Now of course all of those are ok to access via normal browser...but...

I think this perception of "iPhone gets the new goodies first.." is going to make a difference


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> Where's an MSN Messenger app? Or Yahoo Messenger app?  Or an app for the tube, buses or railways?  The catalog is also very USA-centric.  Very amateurish, Palm.


We're certainly paying the price for being early adopters but things will get better quickly. My Android phone already feels old in compared to the Pre.

I've downloaded the Flickster movie guide, Tweed Twitter app, Yelp local guide, Accu Weather and bweather apps so far and they're all pretty excellent.

There's hundreds of useful apps available on the Homebrew catalogue too  http://www.precentral.net/homebrew-apps but we're going to have wait a little for the European firmware version to catch up before we can use them all though.

There's a MSN/yahoo app on the way too: http://www.agilemobile.com/palmpre.php - and this is a good stop gap: http://www.meebo.com/


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 19, 2009)

Well at least those links provide a glimmer of hope.


----------



## grit (Oct 19, 2009)

*debating online is worse than my other drug addictions *

Right I'm back after a relaxing weekend with the missus and ready to argue about ridiculous details in the mobile space (joking!).

Seriously though, I'd be very interested to hear from people what apps they feel are most lacking from the pre's app store and if the pre owners are prepared to pay for apps (and if so what sort of price point would be expected).

Would there be any willing guinea pig pre testers out there?


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Oct 19, 2009)

could webos do an iphone simulator?  I guess somebody would already be doing this if it were possible..but it would be fantastic if all those iPhone apps could be run inside webos!


----------



## grit (Oct 19, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> could webos do an iphone simulator?  I guess somebody would already be doing this if it were possible..but it would be fantastic if all those iPhone apps could be run inside webos!



Well the approach that looks to be the best one for cross platform mobile development is doing all dev in html/css/javascript and then running your local web app in web browser wrapper.

This allows you to pretty much write the app once and then with a small bit of tweaking getting it running on iPhone/android/webos/nokia etc


----------



## g force (Oct 19, 2009)

Hang on...what was that I saw on E4 last night? Yes it was a Palm Pre advert!


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Oct 19, 2009)

Yeah but they are not all doing that..so get busy making me an iPhone simulator for the Pre please!

I'd pay at least a fiver for that ;-)


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 19, 2009)

g force said:


> Hang on...what was that I saw on E4 last night? Yes it was a Palm Pre advert!



Yeah saw one during Five's The Gadget Show earlier...actual advertising from Palm? Who'd thunk it!?


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm still waiting to transfer my number over, so I haven't been using it as my main phone yet, but the thought of going back to Android already feels like a massive step backward. The multi tasking makes an unbelievable amount of difference to usability - it's fantastic.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 20, 2009)

I've downloaded the two weater apps - Accuweather and bweather.  Both look slick.  But why do their current temp and 5-day weather forecast differ from each other? Should be the same surely, as they would source from the same place I would think.


----------



## grit (Oct 20, 2009)

editor said:


> The multi tasking makes an unbelievable amount of difference to usability - it's fantastic.



I've really been reviewing my use of the iPhone and the lack of proper multi tasking is defo becoming a pain in the arse. 

How many cards are you running at once before it starts to crack under the load?


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2009)

grit said:


> I've really been reviewing my use of the iPhone and the lack of proper multi tasking is defo becoming a pain in the arse.
> 
> How many cards are you running at once before it starts to crack under the load?


I've only ever had about five or six at one go: email, some web pages and weather, and everything ran very smoothly indeed. The Palm system feels much more like working on a computer at home. The phone may have its faults (like the lack of apps) but going back to a handset with anything other than a webOS-like interface would feel a major step backwards now. The notifications system is superb too.

My Android phone felt positively _Neanderthal_ when I used it this morning.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 20, 2009)

There's footage on youtube of people opening up to 20 cards on their Pre - wow!


----------



## paolo (Oct 20, 2009)

A interesting test would be having a 3rd party media app - e.g. Spotify - playing whilst doing other stuff. That's something the iPhone just cannot do (rather than can do but a little clunkily, like having web pages rendering whilst using email).


----------



## kazza007 (Oct 20, 2009)

Is this an iphone killer then?  Who's the market, people who like bb AND iphones?


----------



## grit (Oct 20, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> There's footage on youtube of people opening up to 20 cards on their Pre - wow!



Got a link I just went looking for that video. 

Of the videos im seeing on youtube one thing that is concerning me is that the touchscreen doesnt appear to be accurate in the sense that a few videos are showing people having to tap twice sometimes three times.


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2009)

kazza007 said:


> Is this an iphone killer then?  Who's the market, people who like bb AND iphones?


It's not an iPhone killer. It's a hugely capable iPhone _alternative_ that has its pros and cons over the iPhone.


----------



## g force (Oct 20, 2009)

Indeed...it depends what you want out of a phone really. The good news is whatever your tasts the consumer is now pretty much catered for (once network exclusivity terms end) - iPhone, Pre, BB, Nokia that new Motorola, HTC....take your pick, have a play around the shop and then get the phone that you can lvie with.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 20, 2009)

grit said:


> Got a link I just went looking for that video.
> 
> Of the videos im seeing on youtube one thing that is concerning me is that the touchscreen doesnt appear to be accurate in the sense that a few videos are showing people having to tap twice sometimes three times.



 5 min clip

 8 min clip


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> 5 min clip


That dude sure digs his Pre! Mind you, 17 open apps with music streaming in the background ain't to be sniffed at.

I've had no problems with the touchscreen at all. It seems very accurate.


----------



## grit (Oct 20, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> 5 min clip




Colour me impressed....


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 20, 2009)

g force said:


> Indeed...it depends what you want out of a phone really. The good news is whatever your tasts the consumer is now pretty much catered for (once network exclusivity terms end) - iPhone, Pre, BB, Nokia that new Motorola, HTC....take your pick, have a play around the shop and then get the phone that you can lvie with.



Yup, these are great days for the smartphone users!


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 21, 2009)

Is the Palm Pre on display in any O2 stores yet?  I want to have a play with one.


----------



## Radar (Oct 21, 2009)

All the O2 stores I've been in since Friday have had at least 2 working Pres on display

e2a: Surrey Quays, Fenchurch Street & Cannon Street


----------



## hiccup (Oct 21, 2009)

I had a play with one in a shop the other day (02 in Chiswick). It was rather lovely. I just can't justify doubling my monthly contract cost to get one.


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 21, 2009)

Hmmm, will check out an O2 store today then...


----------



## manifold (Oct 21, 2009)

After a few days I love what the Pre could be with some work on Palm's part, but I'm starting to notice a few major os flaws (hopefully they get addressed quickly).

Primarily the alarm clock is really unreliable, which would make me think twice about getting one if I hadn't already. I woke up late today to find my phone asking me to dismiss the alarm, which wasn't actually ringing. The sound was at full volume, so it's not because I'd set it to silent, or vibrate. I've also found that sometimes in the evening the alarm has cancelled itself for the next day and I have to reset it. You also have to set it at 5 minute intervals, which is a little annoying (yes, on some days I really do like those extra 2 minutes of sleep, but can't afford the full 5)

I've had a few launcher issues as well where it will just open up the last application instead of the launch menu. So far this has fixed itself after a few minutes, but I can see some resets in the future (and the Pre takes _ages_ to start/shutdown).

There's no easy way to manage files, but I suspect an app will come along to fix that (I can't figure out how to delete pdf's away from a computer).

There's also a little light-bleed from the lcd around the edges of the phone, which I noticed last night watching a film, and of course the battery life really is awful.

All-in-all I still prefer the Pre over my old samsung (which was stuck on the old EDGE network and quite battered), but it still has a couple of major kinks that need ironing out.

Edit: Now I'm testing it, the alarm won't sound at all! ffs

Edit 2: Got it working again, and having looked into it, it seems that until they bring out the update the pre won't play daily alarms that you set on the same day :/


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2009)

That new patch can't come quick enough for some minor annoyances, but it's still the best phone I've used by miles. Good to see Fliq Notes coming out soon.

Have you tried restarting the phone, btw? That's cleared up the alarm issue for some folks.


----------



## manifold (Oct 21, 2009)

Yeah, hopefully it's fixed it for tomorrow now. I just don't like going to sleep not knowing whether it will wake me up on time.


----------



## Radar (Oct 21, 2009)

What's the story with the bing-bong thing ??

I have one touchstone that works perfectly. I have another one that when the Pre is docked and hits 100% it oscilates between a charging and non-charging mode and bing-bongs each time it goes into charging mode.

I'm bringing both touchstones into work tomorrow and doing a side by side test.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm thinking it's a dodgy batch. I'm getting mine replaced on the weekend.


----------



## Radar (Oct 22, 2009)

Mine seems to be having a fit at the moment and not sending SMSes, but I suspect that could be down to having my old number ported across, which completed yesterday noon after submitting the PAC on Saturday night.

The inability to forward SMS or to select text within SMS or emails is also supposed to be addressed by the next OS upgrade.

Anyone played with the SDK yet ??


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2009)

I've had no problems sending texts - and I'm loving the way I can start a chat in Google Talk and seamlessly continue in SMS. *Very* slick.

I really want to get my hands on al that Homebrew stuff, so I'm mustard keen to get my mitts on the firmware upgrade. Quite a few apps are appearing in the store now though: Fliq Notes looks like something I'd pay for once the desktop app is released.


----------



## grit (Oct 22, 2009)

editor said:


> I've had no problems sending texts - and I'm loving the way I can start a chat in Google Talk and seamlessly continue in SMS. *Very* slick.



Is it possible to stop that behaviour from happening? Personally I wouldnt like it switching between IM and SMS with me knowing/controling it.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Oct 23, 2009)

as mentioned ad nauseam before I have been concerned about whether synching would really work with a Pre and my mac...without having to use google

I totally know that the plural of anecdote is not proof..but these posts from an experienced phone geek suggest I'm right to be at least wary at this stage (I too have an unhappy history with Missing sync on the mac and palm centro)

http://jwz.livejournal.com/1069500.html

so he has decided to go back to iPhone

http://jwz.livejournal.com/1108212.html

and that is the direction I'm headed now

so long..and I'd love to hear some tales of Pre/Mac lurve!

I really want the Pre to succeed..and bizarrely I might get one+ a new 18 month 02 contract and swap with an unhappy iPhone friend (although I'm not sure he realises how much money I'd want to do that, assuming it's even technically possible???)


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> so he has decided to go back to iPhone


That users experience with the performance of his phone bears no relation to mine or just about every review I've ever read. 

It's easily as fast as an iPhone and the multi-tasking elevates into another league altogether for some tasks. Right now, I'm listening to a streamed radio website, have two email windows open, another website, the image viewer and a notes app and it's running very smoothly.  

Have you checked out precentral.net? There's loads of good advice on there about the Pre and Mac issues. I'm still *really* loving the the phone.


grit said:


> Is it possible to stop that behaviour from happening? Personally I wouldnt like it switching between IM and SMS with me knowing/controling it.


Of course. It's entirely up to you. It's a great feature.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Oct 23, 2009)

glad to hear Pre is still pleasuring you!
I wasn't really referring to his speed issues..purely the synching with Mac probs...and I've read about the advice on Pre/Mac issues, cheers. I think what's attractive about iPhone for a mac user is there aren't really any synch issues to need advice on!


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2009)

Piers Gibbon said:


> glad to hear Pre is still pleasuring you!
> I wasn't really referring to his speed issues..purely the synching with Mac probs...and I've read about the advice on Pre/Mac issues, cheers. I think what's attractive about iPhone for a mac user is there aren't really any synch issues to need advice on!


Absolutely, but the iPhone doesn't come without its own set of caveats.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 23, 2009)

I've just come across thisa article on the Mirror's site 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology/2009/10/16/palm-pre-top-10-apps-115875-21752692/

It lists their favourite Pre apps, but when I do a search for "TubeApp" or "AP News" on my phone, it returns with zero results.  Anyone else able to access these apps?


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2009)

APNews is there (it's AP Mobile) but some of the others are homebrew apps.

I've been using Accuradio - an amazing free streaming radio app, wetter.com and the almost ludicrously glossy bWeahter weather apps, infopedia, flixster and Yelp. Oh, and Tweed which is really good too.

I might have a go at this homebrew lark over the weekend,


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 27, 2009)

New UK based review here.



> It’s been just over a week since I took loan of a Palm Pre, a device that bears the weight of Palm’s future success on its shoulders. Or so the story goes.
> And it’s far too good a story for most pundits not to have written, me included. The truth, of course, is a little less dramatic but significant nonetheless.
> While the Palm Pre is undoubtedly the company’s comeback device, the big bet is the accompanying webOS that powers the Pre along with the subsequently released Palm Pixi. In fact since the second device running webOS was unveiled, Palm have announced that, moving forward, they’re dumping Windows Mobile to pursue a single OS strategy. Thanks Redmond for easing the transition away from the dying PalmOS to the newly born webOS. But make no mistake, that’s all you were good for.
> It’s in this context that when reviewing the Palm Pre it’s more tempting than usual to consider the phone’s hardware as separate from the operating system it runs on. So that’s exactly what I’m going to do.


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2009)

It's a really remarkable phone. I'll be amazed if every other smartphone manufacturer doesn't rip off the webOS concept and offer some form of similar multitasking in the coming months: it's _that_ good.


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 27, 2009)

Hmmm, I still haven't had a chance to try out the Palm Pre.  I'm stuck in between getting the Blackberry Bold 9700, the Nokia E72 and the Palm Pre.

This is rather worrying: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/tec...gps-to-report-users-locations-to-company.html


----------



## grit (Oct 27, 2009)

I was in my local O2 shop on saturday playing with one. WebOS looks slick and the multi-tasking is nice. The keyboard for me was close to unusable (however this is all down to personal preference I guess).

My only really complaint was the lack of accuracy of the touchscreen, it was giving a little ripple effect when a tap is registered and it always seemed to be slightly off.

It kinda reminded me of a G1, groundbreaking OS being shown in a tech demo shell.


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2009)

Xanadu said:


> Hmmm, I still haven't had a chance to try out the Palm Pre.  I'm stuck in between getting the Blackberry Bold 9700, the Nokia E72 and the Palm Pre.
> 
> This is rather worrying: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/tec...gps-to-report-users-locations-to-company.html


That news is _terrifyingly_ old! You can turn it off as easy as pie. It's a non issue.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 27, 2009)

Had a play with it recently, not particulary impressed, the apps for sluggish compared to the iPhone, the screen was no where near as good or responsive. The build felt cheap and plasticky, although it sat very nicely in the hand and was very comfortable to hold. I was amazed at how tiny the thing is! 

The keyboard is terrible though, even the Palm Centro's tiny cramped keyboard pwns this. The buttons aren't raised enough, they're too stiff, the top row is nigh on impossible to type comfortably on. I felt like a prototype of a better phone to come to me...


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2009)

That's strange because I'm finding the phone every bit as snappy as an iPhone - it's a very responsive phone. Maybe the display models are getting borked.

I prefer the Pre's keyboard to the iPhone's by miles, but it's a matter of personal preference, of course. Have to say that going back to any phone that doesn't have Palm's slick multi tasking feels like a massive step backwards now.


----------



## Sunray (Oct 27, 2009)

Least I'm not alone in thinking exactly the same about the keyboard.  Too small and stiff for comfort.  Its only good feature was that kinda rubbery shine makes your finger stick when pressing so you don't skit across multiple keys.  I don't want to press very much at all, or i'll have to tense my left arm up to support each press.  I find that annoying.

OS looks great though, needs better hardware. Unfortunately for Palm, Apple got there 1st.


----------



## grit (Oct 27, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> the apps for sluggish compared to the iPhone, the screen was no where near as good or responsive. The build felt cheap and plasticky, although it sat very nicely in the hand and was very comfortable to hold. I was amazed at how tiny the thing is!



Thats pretty much it, seemed to be about a 300ms delay in application responsiveness and the touch screen was not accurate. iPhone seemed to take a different view on the application responsiveness issue, where sometimes showing a splash screen and forcing the user to wait until the application had fully loaded and therefore seemed snapier. WebOS seems to redraw the screen the minute it has something to show and therefore the first few seconds of using the application is a bit sluggish.


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2009)

I'm really not getting this lag at all and just about every Pre video I've seen on the web doesn't either.


----------



## grit (Oct 27, 2009)

editor said:


> I'm really not getting this lag at all and just about every Pre video I've seen on the web doesn't either.



These comparisons are being made against the iPhone so its all relative in that regard.


----------



## Xanadu (Oct 27, 2009)

A 300ms lag is pretty hefty.  The videos (including user reviews) posted on YouTube don't show any lag.


----------



## grit (Oct 27, 2009)

Xanadu said:


> A 300ms lag is pretty hefty.  The videos (including user reviews) posted on YouTube don't show any lag.



That was a rough guess from using the phone in the shop for about fifteen minutes. It certainly felt like 300ms however as its a guess it could be less.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 27, 2009)

editor said:


> That's strange because I'm finding the phone every bit as snappy as an iPhone - it's a very responsive phone. *Maybe the display models are getting borked.
> *
> I prefer the Pre's keyboard to the iPhone's by miles, but it's a matter of personal preference, of course. Have to say that going back to any phone that doesn't have Palm's slick multi tasking feels like a massive step backwards now.



That's what I was hoping, gonna try and see if there's a better working one in a O2 shop locally. I agree with you about not being able to go backwards. Now every phone I use other than iPhone just frustrates, none come close in terms of ui.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 27, 2009)

Sunray said:


> Least I'm not alone in thinking exactly the same about the keyboard.  Too small and stiff for comfort.  Its only good feature was that kinda rubbery shine makes your finger stick when pressing so you don't skit across multiple keys.  I don't want to press very much at all, or i'll have to tense my left arm up to support each press.  I find that annoying.
> 
> OS looks great though, needs better hardware. Unfortunately for Palm, Apple got there 1st.



Yep the keyboard is horrible, the Centro one is easily the best tiny full qwerty I've ever used. The iPhone is the best non hardware one I've used.



grit said:


> Thats pretty much it, seemed to be about a 300ms delay in application responsiveness and the touch screen was not accurate. iPhone seemed to take a different view on the application responsiveness issue, where sometimes showing a splash screen and forcing the user to wait until the application had fully loaded and therefore seemed snapier. WebOS seems to redraw the screen the minute it has something to show and therefore the first few seconds of using the application is a bit sluggish.



I don't know if it was just a display unit problem tbh but when I tried to flip the card off screen to shut an app down it didn't move. I had to try again to get it to 'grip'. There was a noticable lag when opening apps, or navigating in them. It was slower doing this than the iPhone 3G.


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2009)

grit said:


> These comparisons are being made against the iPhone so its all relative in that regard.


I meant from watching people use the Pre on videos. It's as snappy as an iPhone - and just about every review says that too.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 27, 2009)

One odd thing I noticed though was the 3G speeds while surfing the net were great and consistent. I took out my iPhone and could only get two bars to the Pre's 4 and the web was slow. I was standing barely a foot from the Pre! O2 really have to sort out their network coverage...


----------



## grit (Oct 27, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yep the keyboard is horrible, the Centro one is easily the best tiny full qwerty I've ever used. The iPhone is the best non hardware one I've used.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if it was just a display unit problem tbh but when I tried to flip the card off screen to shut an app down it didn't move. I had to try again to get it to 'grip'. There was a noticable lag when opening apps, or navigating in them. It was slower doing this than the iPhone 3G.



To be honest a display unit is just a unboxed retail unit so if its a problem with the demo models in the shop its a problem with the retail version of the phone.


----------



## grit (Oct 27, 2009)

editor said:


> I meant from watching people use the Pre on videos. It's as snappy as an iPhone - and just about every review says that too.



Got any mates with a iPhone 3g? would be interested to see it in a side by side comparison speed wise, sure you'd get another wirefresh article out of it


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 27, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> One odd thing I noticed though was the 3G speeds while surfing the net were great and consistent. I took out my iPhone and could only get two bars to the Pre's 4 and the web was slow. I was standing barely a foot from the Pre! O2 really have to sort out their network coverage...



That doesn't make sense.  Same 3G network = same performance levels, especially as you had the phones side by side!


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2009)

grit said:


> Got any mates with a iPhone 3g? would be interested to see it in a side by side comparison speed wise, sure you'd get another wirefresh article out of it


There's a video comparison with the 3G here: 

The iPhone looks pretty massive compared to the Pre! There's no lag I can see and the reviewer had no problem typing on the Pre either. In fact he says it's better than the iPhones.


----------



## grit (Oct 27, 2009)

at 1:29 - 1:30 shows the delay in opening an application.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 27, 2009)

grit said:


> To be honest a display unit is just a unboxed retail unit so if its a problem with the demo models in the shop its a problem with the retail version of the phone.



Hmmm I'm not sure it's that simple, it's possible that the constant less than careful use might have messed the units up. Like I said this was just first impressions and store units, real world use could easily be very different.



sumimasen said:


> That doesn't make sense.  Same 3G network = same performance levels, especially as you had the phones side by side!



You're telling me! I was baffled, but then I've had super fast 3G speeds on the 3GS moved half a foot and it's dropped to Edge...O2 = fail.


----------



## grit (Oct 27, 2009)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Hmmm I'm not sure it's that simple, it's possible that the constant less than careful use might have messed the units up.



Does not compute, if someone using the phone in the shop can mess it up, its an issue with the phone.

People are not testing its bouncing ability off the walls.


----------



## paolo (Oct 27, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> That doesn't make sense.  Same 3G network = same performance levels



Different antenna design, different radio receiver chip.


----------



## sumimasen (Oct 27, 2009)

I see.  So does that mean the Pre's is superior to the iPhone's, 3G-wise.


----------



## paolo (Oct 27, 2009)

sumimasen said:


> I see.  So does that mean the Pre's is superior to the iPhone's, 3G-wise.



Possibly. You'd need a more scientific test to say for sure.

(e2a: Comparing 'Bars' alone isn't sufficient. There is no standard for number of bars, vs. signal. Rendering speed is also problematic. Different processors, different compilations of the Web Kit renderer - from anecdotal reports, I suspect the Pre renders faster. A bandwidth test would probably be the least flawed method of determining effectiveness of the RF receiver system.)


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2009)

The reception and sound on my Pre is a whole load better than my T-Mobile G1.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 27, 2009)

editor said:


> The reception and sound on my Pre is a whole load better than my T-Mobile G1.



That could be because you have better coverage where you are. I stood with my iPhone in hand and tested the loading of a web page against the Pre and it was baffling!


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2009)

This is handy: £15 gets you a spare battery plus a desktop battery charger so you can keep multiple batteries charged up.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Q347-2-X-Batt...ries_MobilePhoneBatteries?hash=item5d263f9905


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2009)

OK. So here's where the Pre has absolutely blown me away. I just had a call from Pier Gibbons (from these very boards).  After the call, I thought I'd save his number, so clicked the '+' icon next to his number and typed in his name.

Immediately, the Pre linked together his Facebook account (and an old contacts entry I'd forgotten about) and added his photo and his email address so I've now got his full profile in my address book. Very impressive.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Oct 28, 2009)

and it did all that whilst you got my name wrong - it's magic ;-)


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 28, 2009)

editor said:


> OK. So here's where the Pre has absolutely blown me away. I just had a call from Pier Gibbons (from these very boards).  After the call, I thought I'd save his number, so clicked the '+' icon next to his number and typed in his name.
> 
> Immediately, the Pre linked together his Facebook account (and an old contacts entry I'd forgotten about) and added his photo and his email address so I've now got his full profile in my address book. Very impressive.



Its very impressive, but I've been doing that with Touch Flow and WinMo for quite some time now, its a great feature. 

Only just released the other day its grabbed everyone's birthdays from Facebook and put them in my Outlook Calendar as well.


----------



## cliche guevara (Oct 31, 2009)

editor said:


> OK. So here's where the Pre has absolutely blown me away. I just had a call from Pier Gibbons (from these very boards).  After the call, I thought I'd save his number, so clicked the '+' icon next to his number and typed in his name.
> 
> Immediately, the Pre linked together his Facebook account (and an old contacts entry I'd forgotten about) and added his photo and his email address so I've now got his full profile in my address book. Very impressive.



There is an android app for that, which I had when I first got my Magic. I've since deleted it, and been looking for it for months! To have it native would be great.

My brother bought a pre home form work yesterday, must say I was very impressed it it, was a pleasure to use.


----------



## sumimasen (Nov 1, 2009)

I love my Pre, I would lick it after dropping it in the toilet I would.  However what I don't like about my Pre:

- Dialling a number is on permanent loudspeaker. wtf.  BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP.  Not surprised if I wake up the neighbours.

- Similarly, if I am unfortunately on the phone to someone and at the same time I get a text, dear christ the text alert is also on loudspeaker and one of these days my eardrum won't take it anymore and it will burst.

- There's no autocorrection while texting/emailing.  Although the keyboard is much better than my ex iphone/G1, I'm not perfect and I wouldn't mind this little feature.

- Yeah it's great synching my Facebook contacts to my phonebook.  However although I like all 300 of my friends, I only really speak on the phone with a fraction of them.  That's a lot of needless scrolling Palm.

There's other 'bugs', I'll post them as I recall them.  Anyone else have a similar list?


----------



## kazza007 (Nov 1, 2009)

I hate the idea of EVERYTHING synching in terms of friends off social network sites and numbers, email addresses, I prefer tings separate, why do manufacturers think that this is a good idea?  We don't necessarily communicate with EVERYONE via texts/emails/facespace...some you communicate with more than others, and using one or more medium, and wouldn't like the fact that someone has decided that social networking sites should dominate our lives


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Nov 1, 2009)

I don't get why it has to be all or nothing, why can't you choose which contacts from each service you'd like synced?


----------



## editor (Nov 1, 2009)

kazza007 said:


> I hate the idea of EVERYTHING synching in terms of friends off social network sites and numbers, email addresses, I prefer tings separate, why do manufacturers think that this is a good idea?  We don't necessarily communicate with EVERYONE via texts/emails/facespace...some you communicate with more than others, and using one or more medium, and wouldn't like the fact that someone has decided that social networking sites should dominate our lives


For me it's an absolutely brilliant idea and it's proved invaluable already. But then, my Facebook account isn't full of hundreds of people I don't know. The ability to manually link contacts is very useful too.



sumimasen said:


> - Dialling a number is on permanent loudspeaker. wtf.  BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP.  Not surprised if I wake up the neighbours.


Just turn off the speaker (switch on top) and the dialling is silent.





sumimasen said:


> - Yeah it's great synching my Facebook contacts to my phonebook. However although I like all 300 of my friends, I only really speak on the phone with a fraction of them. That's a lot of needless scrolling Palm.


Why not open the keyboard and start typing the name? You don't even need to have any apps open top start searching.


----------



## editor (Nov 19, 2009)

Just an update to say I'm still *really* loving my Pre - it makes my Android G1 feel very outdated in terms of performance and interface, and althoughugh we're still waiting on a major system update before the full App Store becomes available, I haven't found myself missing much.

Seems to be doing OK in the States too, where it's now the sixth best selling smartphone.

http://www.precentral.net/pre-moving-world-6-smartphone-q3-2009


----------



## Radar (Nov 24, 2009)

WebOS 1.3.1 is out for europe


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2009)

Radar said:


> WebOS 1.3.1 is out for europe


Already downloaded and updated! 
http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-pre-webos-1-3-1-update-arrives-in-europe-full-feature-listing/

Next stop: the homebrew community!
http://www.precentral.net/how-add-homebrew-apps-patches-and-themes


----------



## sumimasen (Nov 26, 2009)

I'm doing the homebrew thing as we speak.  Stuck on the installation bit though, when asked what type of webosdoctor to download.  Is it "Sprint", "Bell" or "Don't Care - Emulator".  I've gone for the last one


----------



## editor (Nov 26, 2009)

The homebrew thing looks a bit confusing, although loads of people seem to have done it with no bother.


----------



## sumimasen (Nov 26, 2009)

Yeah I blazed through anyway and have installed a couple of things.  Tell you what, it's a whole new Pre world out there!  Apps make a smartphone, and finally I have access to more than a pathetic few!


----------



## editor (Nov 26, 2009)

Could you do me a favour and explain the process in really, really simpleton terms?


----------



## sumimasen (Nov 26, 2009)

I started off using your link above http://www.precentral.net/how-add-homebrew-apps-patches-and-themes and to be fair it is pretty straightforward.  The only confusing bit was with what I referred to above.  I did choose the emulator option and there seemed to be no side-effects.

Once you have the software installed called WebOs Quick Install, you actually navigate _within_ it the 3 categories of apps, patches & themes.


----------



## Radar (Nov 26, 2009)

The choice above only applies if you intend using the "panic button" in webOSquickinstall. 

If you download the correct webosdoctor image from palm via the jnlp link, rename it to webosdoctor.jar and drop it in the same directory as webOSquickinstall.jar then you don't get asked.

To get webosdoctor, head to http://palm.com/ROM, tell it your palm is borked, select the correct image (O2 for UK). It will then prompt you for your serial number before letting you download the jnlp file to start the webosdoctor application.

At least this time Palm have made the S/N returned via software the same as the one inside the case


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2009)

I know bugger all about mobile app development, but an awful lot of people seem to be getting excited about Palm's new Ares software development package which has hit beta.







> Breaking tradition from Mojo -- Palm's other webOS SDK -- the big news with Ares is that the dev environment is fully web-based with no additional tools needed for apps to get whipped into reality. Not only does that make getting started a breeze (theoretically, anyway), but Palm thinks that this is the way to bring mobile development to a whole new category of folks who may not come from traditional dev backgrounds -- they want to pull in web geeks who've got the ideas and design experience but not necessarily the hardcore coding background that you'd normally need to take the next Air Hockey to production
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/17/palms-ares-sdk-goes-to-public-beta/


User comment: 





> Compared to a lot of things, though, this is definitely easy! I have been trying it out just now, and I have to say:
> 
> I am just absolutely floored at how well it works. A full application development suite based in the browser. This is what people have been talking about when they gush over the possibilities of HTML5. Someone went and did it and it's Palm.


----------



## dweller (Dec 18, 2009)

^^^ that does look really cool


----------



## Sunray (Dec 18, 2009)

That looks pretty shit I must say.  I have a minor thing about flash looking dev tools.  They are tools, not games.  

Its JavaScript. The worst development language ever created.  So bad is it that Google have created a tool that takes Java and turns it into JavaScript.


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2009)

Why is something that makes it easy for less techie types to create apps 'shit'? It's not like most of the mobile phone apps currently created are particularly good or complex. I'd imagine there's loads of people with good ideas but not enough experience of a proper coding environment who may enjoy using this - and the more people having a go at app writing the better, surely?

Heck, even I might give it a go.


----------



## Sunray (Dec 21, 2009)

I'd prefer them to put the effort into making a tool worth using rather than making it look pretty.   Every single 'pretty' dev tool I have ever used in (gulp) 30 years of using computers has been totally abysmal and so lacking in basic functionality that you nearly immediately hit its limits trying to to do basic stuff.

Its a dev tool, dev tools shouldn't look flash. Look at Visual Studio, its been pretty much the same for 15 years now, has no peer as it does what it does so brilliantly its amazing.  Its no beginners tool. 

To make the Pre work, its all JS CSS and HTML.  So all you need to get started is notepad and a good book on JavaScript and the Pre SDK documentation.  No flashy tools required. However much I dislike JS its still a fully (dis) functional language with so many horrible knots in that you need to be really on your game to get it to do what you want reliably.


----------



## editor (Dec 21, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I'd prefer them to put the effort into making a tool worth using rather than making it look pretty.   Every single 'pretty' dev tool I have ever used in (gulp) 30 years of using computers has been totally abysmal and so lacking in basic functionality that you nearly immediately hit its limits trying to to do basic stuff.
> 
> Its a dev tool, dev tools shouldn't look flash. Look at Visual Studio, its been pretty much the same for 15 years now, has no peer as it does what it does so brilliantly its amazing.  Its no beginners tool.
> 
> To make the Pre work, its all JS CSS and HTML.  So all you need to get started is notepad and a good book on JavaScript and the Pre SDK documentation.  No flashy tools required. However much I dislike JS its still a fully (dis) functional language with so many horrible knots in that you need to be really on your game to get it to do what you want reliably.


I don't understand your argument: tech bods already have the tools to create complex apps, but this tool gives newbies an easier way in, and if they show an aptitude for producing apps, they can just learn more as they go along.

As a consumer, I don't give a shit _how_ an app was made - all I care about is: is it useful/fun/productive.


----------



## paolo (Dec 21, 2009)

Sunray said:


> I have a minor thing about flash looking dev tools.



Me too. In general, the "cooler" they look, the more useless they are.

The Visual Studio example is a good one. And there are parallels outside of coding. Things like Photoshop and Quark XPress do not look "cool". There's no reason they need to.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Dec 27, 2009)

Oh dear. This doesn't look good...never thought the Pre would sell anywhere near the iPhone but thought it might hold it's own.



> Carphone Warehouse is giving away two free airline tickets to anyone who buys a Palm Pre before the end of January as speculation increases that sales of the mobile phone, seen as the closest competitor to Apple's iPhone have fallen far short of expectations.
> 
> *Mobile phone network O2, which offers the Palm Pre under an exclusive deal in the UK, is believed to have mountains of unsold phones.*


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2009)

How on earth can it be reasonably expected to 'hold its own' against a company twenty times its size and one with an advertising budget and brand awareness that completely dwarfs its efforts?

Most people in the UK have never even heard of Palm.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Dec 28, 2009)

Hold it's own in the market generally. Looks like most people haven't heard of Palm and never will...


----------



## johnnymarrsbars (Dec 28, 2009)

i'm in the market for a new smartphone. i've had 2 iPhones, which overall are pretty good but the reliability just isn't there. the browser crashes quite a bit and the mail app doesn't always alert me of new messages. there was one time where it spontaneously deleted all my text messages as well. nice..

thing is, i'm a mac user and will want to be using my phone as a music player as well (i use iTunes).

at work we have an exchange server but i'll also want to use it to sync my personal contacts and calendars over the air as well (mobileme at the moment, but apparently google do the same thing for free?).

basically what i use on my phone is email, calendars, messaging, web browsing and a bit of facebook and twitter. the lack of apps in the palm catalogue doesn't really bother me too much as i don't want to play games or have an app on my phone that simulates drinking a pint or whatever.

really unsure what to do!

blackberrys are out as i really hate their UI. looks about 10 years behind apple or palm.


----------



## paolo (Dec 28, 2009)

The Google over the air push sync works really well for me on the iPhone.

The issue you might have though is that it uses the one available 'slot' for Exchange based syncing, so you can't use it alongside syncing to, say, your office Exchange.


----------



## Xanadu (Dec 28, 2009)

johnnymarrsbars said:


> really unsure what to do!
> 
> blackberrys are out as i really hate their UI. looks about 10 years behind apple or palm.



My blackberry 9700 is brilliant.  I don't give a fuck that the interface looks a little dated - it just works.  My only complaint is the lack of a decent web browser.


----------



## johnnymarrsbars (Dec 28, 2009)

paolo999 said:


> The Google over the air push sync works really well for me on the iPhone.
> 
> The issue you might have though is that it uses the one available 'slot' for Exchange based syncing, so you can't use it alongside syncing to, say, your office Exchange.



i know - i've found this on my iPhone and its a pain.


can the pre handle more than one exchange account?


----------



## purplex (Dec 28, 2009)

How long is the battery life?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Dec 28, 2009)

johnnymarrsbars said:


> i know - i've found this on my iPhone and its a pain.
> 
> 
> can the pre handle more than one exchange account?



I use the gmail push with my iPhone and it works perfectly, as well as a Blackberry.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 1, 2010)

johnnymarrsbars said:


> i know - i've found this on my iPhone and its a pain.
> 
> 
> can the pre handle more than one exchange account?



I could be wrong but to connect to Exchange like that you have to negotiate a licence from Microsoft.  Two concurrent connections would I assume cost more.


----------



## sumimasen (Jan 1, 2010)

purplex said:


> How long is the battery life?



You'll be charging it overnight, every night.


----------



## live_jayeola (Jan 1, 2010)

purplex said:


> How long is the battery life?



Even if you reduce the screen brightness it'll be about two days max. The minute you install aps and start using the email, you will get a day. I carry around a cable and plug it into the office, home or my gf's machine to charge it.


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 1, 2010)

purplex said:


> How long is the battery life?



The battery on my blackberry is brilliant.  If I watch out for battery usage, I get around a week of charge.  Usually I listen to music, use the internet and a few apps, so I get around 2 - 3 days.


----------



## sumimasen (Jan 1, 2010)

Xanadu said:


> The battery on my blackberry is brilliant.  If I watch out for battery usage, I get around a week of charge.  Usually I listen to music, use the internet and a few apps, so I get around 2 - 3 days.



That's incredible for a smartphone. Pre and iphone can't get near that, wonder how RIM do it.


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 1, 2010)

According to the Blackberry website:

Battery & Battery Life (of the Blackberry 9700)

    * Battery: 1500 mAh removable/rechargeable cryptographic Lithium cell
    * Talk Time: Up to 6 hours (GSM and UMTS)
    * Standby Time: Up to 21 days/504 hours (GSM), Up to 17 days/408 hours (UMTS)
    * Music Playback Time: Up to 38 hours

That's probably correct, but I use Wi-fi for UMA calls at home, so it'll use up way more power.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 1, 2010)

sumimasen said:


> That's incredible for a smartphone. Pre and iphone can't get near that, wonder how RIM do it.



It's no mystery, the BB is a great emailer but still a very low tech phone, no touch screen, small screen area, no apps that really push the phone and also no 3G...


----------



## paolo (Jan 1, 2010)

Xanadu said:


> According to the Blackberry website:
> 
> Battery & Battery Life (of the Blackberry 9700)
> 
> ...



WiFi is _lower_ power than cellular.


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 1, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It's no mystery, the BB is a great emailer but still a very low tech phone, no touch screen, small screen area, no apps that really push the phone and also no 3G...



Mines got 3G and Wi-fi.  There are quite a few apps around now with 3D games coming soon (obviously nowhere near as many as the iPhone though), and while the screen is only 2.4", it's also higher resolution than the iPhone and Palm Pre.


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 1, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> WiFi is _lower_ power than cellular.



Really??

On my old Windows Mobile phone, wi-fi used to drain the battery like mad.


----------



## live_jayeola (Jan 1, 2010)

Bloody hell after hearing stories of good battery life I may be tempted to ditch the iPhone. Sometimes I wish I could use a phone as a "dedicated talking to people device", like I used to and not for the net, emails, photos, sms, music, PDA...


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 2, 2010)

live_jayeola said:


> Bloody hell after hearing stories of good battery life I may be tempted to ditch the iPhone. Sometimes I wish I could use a phone as a "dedicated talking to people device", like I used to and not for the net, emails, photos, sms, music, PDA...


I wanted it all, but didn't care about apps, so went for the blackberry.  It's great so far, but I'm desperate for them to release the WebKit browser, so we can get some Palm Pre/iPhone style browsing.


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 2, 2010)

After 2 and a half days of use (facebook, browser, third party rss reader, text, email and a few short calls), I'm at 75% of battery.


----------



## editor (Jan 2, 2010)

Blackberry make great business handsets, but they lag miles behind when it comes to fun stuff. I'm never going to go back to a non-touchscreen phone.


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 2, 2010)

Having an optical touchpad is like having a laptop trackpad.  I haven't really missed not having a touch screen yet.  Especially because I can use my mobile with my gloves still on.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 2, 2010)

Xanadu said:


> Having an optical touchpad is like having a laptop trackpad.  I haven't really missed not having a touch screen yet.  Especially because I can use my mobile with my gloves still on.



So can I, its one of the few advantages of resistive touch screens.


----------



## paolo (Jan 2, 2010)

Xanadu said:


> After 2 and a half days of use (facebook, browser, third party rss reader, text, email and a few short calls), I'm at 75% of battery.



Do you have time usage stats on your phone? If so, it be good to post up the numbers, having been reset after a full charge.


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 3, 2010)

Can't find any usage stats.

Since yesterday, I've made a couple of short calls, sent about a dozen texts, watch a couple of videos on YouTube, spent about 20 minutes browsing the net, and installed 4 apps.  I'm on 50% battery now.


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2010)

The thread's been hijacked by ruddy Blackberrys!

(((Palm Pre)))


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 4, 2010)

Someone's got to advertise them to the consumer.  With all the iPhone, Palm Pre and Android talk, the techies keep forgetting about the other alternative...


----------



## grit (Jan 4, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> WiFi is _lower_ power than cellular.



Are you sure? Even with an active connection established?


----------



## sumimasen (Jan 4, 2010)

I thought it was common knowledge that 3G drains battery faster than wifi.


----------



## grit (Jan 4, 2010)

sumimasen said:


> I thought it was common knowledge that 3G drains battery faster than wifi.



Yeah 3G maybe, but when someone says cellular I think GPRS.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 4, 2010)

If your running wifi, your 3g connection will still be running. Visiting the outside world over xmas I was blown away by how I get an HSDPA connection most places I visited. Back in the Dale now and back on 1 bar of slowness.


----------



## Xanadu (Jan 5, 2010)

Xanadu said:


> Can't find any usage stats.
> 
> Since yesterday, I've made a couple of short calls, sent about a dozen texts, watch a couple of videos on YouTube, spent about 20 minutes browsing the net, and installed 4 apps.  I'm on 50% battery now.



I haven't charged my phone this year - it's at 20% battery now.


----------



## editor (Jan 7, 2010)

Woooargh! Palm have just released seven big hitting, graphics-intensive games for the Pre:

Need for Speed Undercover (EA Mobile)
The Sims 3 (EA Mobile)
MONOPOLY (EA Mobile)
Asphalt 5: Elite Racing (Gameloft)
Let’s Golf! (Gameloft)
Glyder 2 (Glu Mobile)
X-Plane (Laminar Research)
http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-pre-gets-sims-3-need-for-speed-and-other-graphics-intensive-games/

And there's more! Check out their hotspot app: 



> Who cares about wired tethering? Palm just dropped a bomb with a Mobile Hotspot app that'll bring WiFi routing to up to five devices, not unlike the MiFi devices already offered by both Sprint and Verizon. That's awesome, right up until the moment that the networks totally saturate -- but until then, you'd best believe we're going to be riding this wave of glorious 3G.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/palm-intros-mobile-hotspot-app-guaranteed-to-make-your-router-j/


----------



## editor (Jan 7, 2010)

Video and flash support next month too!


----------



## Radar (Jan 7, 2010)

And plus models of the Pre and Pixi, stateside only at the moment 

Double storage, no mention of what the CPU is and no mention of any removable storage


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 7, 2010)

16 gig storage is very nice, Palm getting serious with that bump.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 7, 2010)

I see that as what they should have started it with tbf.  Not really much to see from Palm other than 'lots' = Seven.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 7, 2010)

editor said:


> And there's more! Check out their hotspot app:



I've had it for months. Don't all smart phones not made by apple have one? 

Doesn't half eat battery life though!


----------



## editor (Jan 8, 2010)

Sunray said:


> I see that as what they should have started it with tbf.  Not really much to see from Palm other than 'lots' = Seven.


And EA Mobile’s Tetris, Sudoku, and SCRABBLE, and Gameloft’s The Oregon Trail and Brain Challenge, for starters.

They're getting the big gaming players onboard and that *is* important.


----------



## c01642 (Jan 8, 2010)

Engadget has some details on the Pre Plus and the Pixi Plus with a need for speed video.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/palm-pre-plus-and-pixi-plus-first-hands-on/


----------



## editor (Jan 8, 2010)

They're loving the new Pre too. It's good to see Palm hitting back.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 8, 2010)

I do think that Palm was at least a year too late to market and unless it does something spectacular the iPhone + immense marketing has imploded its market and its fighting for its life.  

These new models are what they should have released a year ago.

EA isn't going to be producing games for the phone unless there is a sizable installed base.  You can ask them and they will port some stuff over (quite probably Palm doing most of the porting work) , but that's a long long way from EA producing new games for that platform.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 8, 2010)

16GB is a great start, but I think they've missed a trick by not including a micro SD slot. It would mean you have 32gb, so it could compete with the iphone on storage on when 32gb micro sd finally comes out, could be boosted further.


----------



## editor (Jan 8, 2010)

The Pre may not be able to match the iPhone's cornucopia of apps or its vast wads of cash or advertising budget, but it is substantially cheaper (this is a BIG thing), it's physically smaller, has a physical keyboard, a better operating system and is now getting games as good as the best on the iPhone. Crucially, it's also now appearing on one of the US's biggest carriers. 

I'd say that might be enough for it to keep its head above water, although it's always going to be a different story in the UK, where Palm remains a very minor player.


----------



## g force (Jan 8, 2010)

Indeed Palm in the US is a big deal....for whatever reason in the UK it never really has been.


----------



## Structaural (Jan 8, 2010)

Noah in Heroes uses one every episode. Nice lingering product placement.


----------



## fen_boy (Jan 11, 2010)

Not sure how accurate this is, but Palm Pre sells just 220 units in Ireland in 12 weeks.


----------



## Radar (Jan 12, 2010)

Ooh, webOS 1.3.5.2 available since yesterday


----------



## editor (Jan 13, 2010)

Yet another Apple high flyer joins Palm/Elevation.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10433198-56.html


----------



## tarannau (Jan 13, 2010)

Tevanian left Apple a good years ago, didn't he?


----------



## sumimasen (Jan 14, 2010)

Radar said:


> Ooh, webOS 1.3.5.2 available since yesterday



I see no difference!


----------



## grit (Jan 15, 2010)

editor said:


> Yet another Apple high flyer joins Palm/Elevation.
> 
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10433198-56.html



Joining the venture capitalists that back Palm != joining Palm.

ETA: Thats similar to saying that because I have some AMD shares, I've joined AMD.


----------



## editor (Jan 15, 2010)

grit said:


> Joining the venture capitalists that back Palm != joining Palm.
> 
> ETA: Thats similar to saying that because I have some AMD shares, I've joined AMD.


Your analogy is rather ill-informed. Elevation have invested _vast_ sums into Palm and are their major investor as well as holding a quarter share in the company. 



> The Apple-to-Palm exodus heated up in the summer of 2007. Palm had just hired Rubinstein, formerly head of Apple's iPod unit, and Apple CEO Steve Jobs feared Rubenstein was recruiting Apple employees, reported Bloomberg. So Jobs proposed a no-poaching rule to former Palm CEO Ed Colligan, according to Bloomberg. Colligan rejected the proposal, calling it wrong and "likely illegal."Why leave Apple for Palm? It's not just the money, Golvin says. "Some of these Apple executives might have been left out of the mobile evolution at Apple. People who are successful in Silicon Valley tend to have a good nose for where the market is going, where opportunity for innovation lies, and clearly that's much more in mobile than traditional computing."​




http://www.cio.com/article/516019/Palm_Benefits_from_Apple_Alums


----------



## editor (Jan 21, 2010)

Incredible! 

*Palm Pre Plus multi-tasks with 50 simultaneous open apps! (video)*
http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-pre-plus-multi-tasks-with-50-simultaneous-open-apps-video/


----------



## sumimasen (Feb 14, 2010)

There was a software update recently.  Any Pre owners know how I can get rid of the utterly useless and ridiculous American apps on it.  Who gives a shit about Nascar, NFL and Sprint TV!!!


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2010)

Palm are wobbling badly right now. I've just written this piece about their plight in the UK:

Palm Pre: why it failed in the UK
http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-pre-why-it-failed-in-the-uk/

I wish they'd fucking sort it out.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 26, 2010)

editor said:


> Palm are wobbling badly right now. I've just written this piece about their plight in the UK:
> 
> Palm Pre: why it failed in the UK
> http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-pre-why-it-failed-in-the-uk/
> ...



The choice of O2 as a carrier has got to be one of the most incredible  Roberto Carlos style own goals I've ever seen.   O2 shops were iPhone shops and to some extent they still are.

The Pre was forgotten before it even got into their stores and once it did arrive only the Palm heads and the well informed knew about it. Nestling under the 8ft high iPhone, iPhone banners, iPhone bunting and iPhone ballons all over the floor and a stack of open demo iPhones.  

Sales were probably only to the tech press!


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2010)

Sunray said:


> The choice of O2 as a carrier has got to be one of the most incredible  Roberto Carlos style own goals I've ever seen.   O2 shops were iPhone shops and to some extent they still are.
> 
> The Pre was forgotten before it even got into their stores and once it did arrive only the Palm heads and the well informed knew about it. Nestling under the 8ft high iPhone, iPhone banners, iPhone bunting and iPhone ballons all over the floor and a stack of open demo iPhones.
> 
> Sales were probably only to the tech press!


Could you post all that on the Wirefresh article because I really like it - and I've just sent Palm the link to the article.


----------



## Sunray (Feb 26, 2010)

editor said:


> Could you post all that on the Wirefresh article because I really like it - and I've just sent Palm the link to the article.



Done.


----------



## g force (Feb 26, 2010)

02 shops are definite still iPhone shops. Hell it's only their logo that appears on TV ads too so they must be subsidising that still even though Orange and Voda have it.


----------



## Radar (Feb 26, 2010)

hey ed.. Your wirefresh article made the front page of http://www.precentral.net/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 27, 2010)

Sunray said:
			
		

> The choice of O2 as a carrier has got to be one of the most incredible  Roberto Carlos style own goals I've ever seen.   O2 shops were iPhone shops and to some extent they still are.
> 
> The Pre was forgotten before it even got into their stores and once it did arrive only the Palm heads and the well informed knew about it. Nestling under the 8ft high iPhone, iPhone banners, iPhone bunting and iPhone ballons all over the floor and a stack of open demo iPhones.
> 
> Sales were probably only to the tech press!



Well said.


----------



## Radar (Feb 27, 2010)

And WebOS 1.4 has finally hit the O2 download servers.

This is the first WebOS ever to hit euro and US networks simultaneously, in fact the first recorded sighting of 1.4 in the wild was on an unlocked german pre running with a dutch SIM whilst roaming in Vietnam 

e2a:
O2 WebOS 1.4 Release Notes


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2010)

Radar said:


> And WebOS 1.4 has finally hit the O2 download servers.
> 
> This is the first WebOS ever to hit euro and US networks simultaneously, in fact the first recorded sighting of 1.4 in the wild was on an unlocked german pre running with a dutch SIM whilst roaming in Vietnam
> 
> ...


Nice. Very nice:


> New blink notifications (a blinking light in the gesture area) alert you  when email, text message, or other notifications arrive. You clear the  blink notification by turning the screen on and off or unlocking the  screen. The blink notification preference is on by default; you can turn  it off in Screen & Lock > Blink Notifications.


Palm's onscreen alert system is already leagues above the iPhone's and flashing LEDs are a superb way to see if you've got an email/SMS waiting.

Amazingly, Palm's PR rang me back and have promised a statement in response to my article. They've also forwarded it to Palm.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Feb 27, 2010)

Nice one!


----------



## purplex (Feb 28, 2010)

Radar said:


> And WebOS 1.4 has finally hit the O2 download servers.
> 
> This is the first WebOS ever to hit euro and US networks simultaneously, in fact the first recorded sighting of 1.4 in the wild was on an unlocked german pre running with a dutch SIM whilst roaming in Vietnam
> 
> ...



Just downloaded, installing now....


----------



## sumimasen (Mar 5, 2010)

editor said:


> Amazingly, Palm's PR rang me back and have promised a statement in response to my article. They've also forwarded it to Palm.



Look forward to hearing the reply.




Anyone know when paid apps are coming?  

And is the new update any good or as buggy as the last one?


----------



## editor (Mar 5, 2010)

sumimasen said:


> Anyone know when paid apps are coming?


This month apparently and there's expected to be a ton of games coming through. I miss my Palm Pre. Oh, and the new Facebook app for Palm is ace.


----------



## live_jayeola (Mar 13, 2010)

Looks like my money is on a Nokia 900. Not just because it runs Linux. A number of the dev team have them and they are ace. Bit bulky mind you but... another thread perhaps?


----------



## Sunray (Mar 19, 2010)

Business analysts have now downgraded Palm to sell and set the target price of it to $0 which means they don't think its got any future unless Palm can generate some earning growth.

I think that it will have to be bought to continue as a going concern, can't lose $22 million a quarter for too long before someone pulls the plug.

webOS is good but the hardware it runs on is not really up to the job.  

Someone might buy them to get their hands on the patents and webOS.    Palm are currently valued at ~600 million dollars.  Not sure if there is anyone out there that is desperate to get into the Smart phone business that's not already?  Most of the players are already committed to a line of products.  Apple is a possibility but they would just asset strip it and put a pillow over its face.  Then fire off huge lawsuits to Nokia over early Palm patents.

Poor old Palm, I think they are the victim of poor quality staff in key positions and some flaky hardware.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 20, 2010)

Yeah looks like Palm is sliding down the shitter, how different things are from just a year ago...


----------



## grit (Mar 20, 2010)

A buyout by Google would make a lot of sense right about now.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 20, 2010)

grit said:


> A buyout by Google would make a lot of sense right about now.



Hardly. They are the creators of Android with lots of hardware partners that have committed to the Android platform and already have a phone.

Buying Palm would indicate to the entire world that Google are considering replacing Android or that Android isn't as good as it could be. Google aren't a patent trolling company, with just a single product the only thing Palm could offer them would be webOS? 

Given how many hardware partners Google have now, I can't think of a more spectacular own goal they could score.  Up there with Palm choosing O2 as their exclusive UK carrier.  Google's release of their own Android phone caused ripples in the Android pond which must have taken some smooth talking from Google.  Buying Palm would be akin to dropping a brick into that pond.


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Mar 20, 2010)

I'm so sad about this

there is also a bit of schadenfreude at having called it correctly six months ago by getting an old iphone to see how things panned out rather than wait and sign up to a new Pre contract (after years and years of being a loyal Treo and Centro user)

but actually all of us iPhone users are also losers here too...with no perceived real competition apple seem to be going even more madly control freakish as time goes by


----------



## grit (Mar 20, 2010)

Piers Gibbon said:


> but actually all of us iPhone users are also losers here too...with no perceived real competition apple seem to be going even more madly control freakish as time goes by



There wasnt six months ago but there is plenty of real competition now.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 20, 2010)

grit said:
			
		

> A buyout by Google would make a lot of sense right about now.



Looks to me that only reason to buy them is to own patents...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 20, 2010)

Piers Gibbon said:
			
		

> I'm so sad about this
> 
> there is also a bit of schadenfreude at having called it correctly six months ago by getting an old iphone to see how things panned out rather than wait and sign up to a new Pre contract (after years and years of being a loyal Treo and Centro user)
> 
> but actually all of us iPhone users are also losers here too...with no perceived real competition apple seem to be going even more madly control freakish as time goes by



Yeah...had they released the Pre early enough I'd had one...


----------



## grit (Mar 20, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Looks to me that only reason to buy them is to own patents...



yup


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2010)

I still preferred my Pre to my iPhone, but their UK operation is a shambles.

Re: Palm's patents. They're going to be worth an awful lot of money - in fact, it could be suggested that there's a veritable gold mine of patent claims awaiting Palm's buyer.


----------



## elbows (Mar 20, 2010)

Can tell they are a bit desperate as they are offering $1 million in bonuses (total) to developers:

http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1841&Itemid=35


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 20, 2010)

Wow they're fucked.


----------



## editor (Mar 21, 2010)

elbows said:


> Can tell they are a bit desperate as they are offering $1 million in bonuses (total) to developers:
> 
> http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1841&Itemid=35


Your logic is desperately faulty: Android offered _*£10m*_ to developers three years ago.

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/calling-all-developers-10m-android.html

.. and then there's this: "Behind the scenes are the venture capitalists, such as Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, which recently established the *$100 million *iFund to invest in mobile applications for the iPhone"
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9905858-7.html


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 21, 2010)

In this context they're fucked! I doubt they'll be around in present form by the end of the year..!


----------



## editor (Mar 21, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> In this context they're fucked! I doubt they'll be around in present form by the end of the year..!


I really wouldn't write them off quite yet.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 21, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Wow they're fucked.



Not because they are offering money to developers, that's been common for ages.

They are fucked because they are losing $20 million a quarter and have been for 18 months. That can't continue for much longer.


----------



## grit (Mar 21, 2010)

editor said:


> I really wouldn't write them off quite yet.



Its over Editor, really.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 21, 2010)

grit said:
			
		

> Its over Editor, really.



Yep.


----------



## editor (Mar 22, 2010)

The fat lady isn't singing quite yet. Palm has just announced that they’ll soon be launching the Pre Plus and Pixi Plus on AT&T in the States.

http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2010/03...-pre-plus-for-att-at-50-and-150-respectively/


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## g force (Mar 22, 2010)

Woo great (potentially...it's not like we'll get 'em in the UK for 6-8 months) handsets on a network groaning already. The phrase "swansong" springs to mind...I don't want Palm to die but as a company they're pretty much a headcase.

WebOS is a fine piece of technology but the crap build quality of the handsets and the dire marketing outside of the US has hindered them.

Only option is to sell to another company before Android overtakes them. Seriously compare an HTC handset to a Pre and it's embarassing...sure its form is nice but everything else looks cheap. We sent all our 8 demo models back to Palm after they all broke within 6 weeks of use - on 2 the slider stopped working FFS! Sticking to the BlackBerry for work phones here because for their many faults they hardly ever break.


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 22, 2010)

Yep I've not played with one pre that didn't feel cheap and plasticky. Who do people thing are likely to buy them at this point?


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## elbows (Mar 22, 2010)

editor said:


> Your logic is desperately faulty: Android offered _*£10m*_ to developers three years ago.
> 
> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/calling-all-developers-10m-android.html
> 
> ...



OK in the context of people presently saying that Palm is doomed my logic may well come across as faulty. The fact they are offering developers money is not proof that they are in the last desperate throws of life. I stand by the notion that its a desperate tactic though, as it was when others did it, for they are all desperate to get a lions share of the mobile market. The iFund is slightly different in that its an investment rather than a competition, and I cant tell quite how mad keen on it Apple were/are as they arent the ones actually doing it, but maybe it just appears less desperate in hindsight because of the success the app store has had.

At the end of the day these gimmicks have no significance compared to the real big motivators for developers. If they are developing for commercial reasons then they want a platform that has lots of users who are prepared to buy apps. If they want to have fun & enjoy developing then they want good development tools and a platform that has some good features they can harness in interesting ways (+decent handsets). They would prefer to use languages that they have some familiarity with already. Thats about it really, and these factors can overcome a lot of the other crap, which is why so many still develop for iphone despite the negative things Apple do.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 22, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yep I've not played with one pre that didn't feel cheap and plasticky. Who do people thing are likely to buy them at this point?



See above, I don't think there is anyone that would do it to keep them afloat.  

A private equity firm + patent troll might do it for the patents, risky that though. You'd be taking on the big ones and might lose.


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## grit (Mar 22, 2010)

Sunray said:


> See above, I don't think there is anyone that would do it to keep them afloat.
> 
> A private equity firm + patent troll might do it for the patents, risky that though. You'd be taking on the big ones and might lose.



675 million is fuck all for the patents for someone like Google or Nokia to have in the battle chest. 

Nokia would be wise to snap them up for patents but also as they could desperately use PalmOS to finally kill off horrible symbian.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Mar 22, 2010)

Article by Jean-Louis Gassée (ex-Apple, 1981-1990) about the issues Palm have, particularly from the sales and finance side.


> With this in mind, we turn to Palm’s latest quarterly numbers released March 18th, 2010: 960,000 units shipped but… only 408,000 “sold-through”. The latter terms refers to units actually sold to paying customers, as opposed to the 960,000 shipped to distribution channels such as Verizon and Sprint.





> ...after the 29% fall, Palm still seems “worth” about $670M.
> Why?
> 
> Because someone might buy Palm for more than its “book value”, the accounting number. That's the speculators' bet.
> I think that theory will be disproved.



http://www.mondaynote.com/2010/03/21/who-will-buy-palm/

I really had hoped that Palm's technology could triumph over their poor management decisions (announcing product and not saying when it would be available or for how much for far too long, picking disastrous telco partners, awful adverts, confusing the market with additional devices at almost the same price, woeful product launches and support outside of the US), but it's not looking very positive for them at the moment.


----------



## elbows (Mar 22, 2010)

grit said:


> also as they could desperately use PalmOS to finally kill off horrible symbian.



Im not sure that would fit with their plan, which seems to be to based on supporting 2 different opensource royalty-free platforms. They have been busy on this front: Symbian OS evolves into Symbian Platform, and Maemo (as used on their tablets and N900) has merged with Intels Moblin to become MeeGo. Silly names.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 22, 2010)

grit said:


> 675 million is fuck all for the patents for someone like Google or Nokia to have in the battle chest.
> 
> Nokia would be wise to snap them up for patents but also as they could desperately use PalmOS to finally kill off horrible symbian.



Hmm, yeah, Nokia's a possibility, but they have a new OS,  Maemo on the N900, but its just a Linux skin job.  PalmOS is gonna be better than that.  Its not like they cant have another. Nokia is huge.

Had a go in the iPhone...um, O2 shop the other day and webOS defo one of the nicer OS's out there.  It's not quite the panacea that Ed makes out, but its got some nice features that I'd like on the iPhone and are well know to be missing.


----------



## grit (Mar 22, 2010)

elbows said:


> Im not sure that would fit with their plan, which seems to be to based on supporting 2 different opensource royalty-free platforms. They have been busy on this front: Symbian OS evolves into Symbian Platform, and Maemo (as used on their tablets and N900) has merged with Intels Moblin to become MeeGo. Silly names.



I dont think anyone really takes Sybmbian or Maemo that seriously as a target platform. The spectacular failure of the Ovi store is a testament to how little Nokia understand this smart phone market. 

Thats not to say they are in trouble, they have huge penetration in Africa and other lower end markets. But this Android and iPhone party is well out of their comfort zone.


----------



## elbows (Mar 22, 2010)

Symbian has enough of the wider market share to be taken very seriously, but Id agree that Nokia are in danger of dropping the ball when it comes to the new smartphone era we are finding ourselves in, or of hardly picking up the ball in the first place. I had an N800 internet tablet back in the day and it wasnt too bad for a pre-iphone device, but seems quite clunky in 2010 and yeah Maemo certainly doesnt have the userbase to be taken too seriously, at least not at this point, and Im not really sure what the merger witht he intel stuff will mean for the future.

All the same Im really not sure that snapping up another OS is the solution, even if its quite a good OS. If webOS had a lot more love and a lot more apps it would seem like a better proposition but then Palm wouldnt be in trouble, and if Nokia reach a point of needing to harness someone elses platform in future then I would think Android would be a better bet.


----------



## editor (Mar 22, 2010)

The parallels between Palm's plight and Commodore Amiga are too close for comfort.


----------



## grit (Mar 22, 2010)

Its really important to view the numbers in context I guess. My personal attitude is that as a developer I want to target the group that has proven themselves to be happy with micro payments and have high enough spec handsets to provide a powerful user experience. 

Your right however that the sheer volume of Symbian in the lower end market has to be considered. That's fine, but honestly its for people in those markets to address themselves. I looked at starting a small WISP in Goa recently and it could be done but to be honest the return by western standards just is not worth it. Even if you scale up and get great volume.

Android would be an obvious choice (I would be really excited if we saw nokia feature phones running android). Androids minimum requirements are lower than Symbian so its technically possible. However a port of WebOS could work if Nokia did the modifications well.


----------



## sumimasen (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm fucking furious. After the hundred quid I shelled out in NOVEMBER, THE PRE IS NOW FREE ON ALL TARIFFS.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 22, 2010)

Its because they have a lot of stock to sell and Palm are desperate to sell it, they are now making a loss on them to sell them. If they don't O2 send them back.

That link posted above tells it all.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2010)

sumimasen said:


> I'm fucking furious. After the hundred quid I shelled out in NOVEMBER, THE PRE IS NOW FREE ON ALL TARIFFS.


Not sure why you should be furious. It's a great phone with the best mobile OS and just about all phones end up free/much cheaper after launch.


----------



## elbows (Mar 23, 2010)

editor said:


> The parallels between Palm's plight and Commodore Amiga are too close for comfort.



Can you expand on that thought a bit?

As far as I can tell most platforms are doomed to obscurity in the end, and a large and loyal fanbase usually doesnt stand the test of time unless the product remains compelling. So I suppose its not hard to compare Palm and Amiga because its the usual story that could also be applied to many others. Exceptions include Microsoft, who have made windows last much longer without such love, by sheer volume of users and apps, with a dominant share thats not going to happen very often. Apple were exceedingly lucky to get a second go at greatness after many years of looking like they were going to be the usual story of a slow painful fall from grace.

I dont sense that webOS has anything like the love that AmigaOS had back in the day. Indeed Im amused to see that the more recent legal twists in the AmigaOS story appear to have been sorted and that development on that OS continues. Clearly there are things quite a lot of people really like about webOS, and people who really wanted it to succeed, but due to past failings Palm probably only had one chance to get this right and they didnt do enough right to deliver a good enough experience to people. Expressing a desire to go back to webOS if they improve their UK operation or the hardware or whatever is not enough. And for all the hope that was expressed when the Pre was announced, and all the positive reviews and good things about the OS, I think an underlying sense that Palm may already have had its day was present even before the product came out, and this perception made it even harder to succeed. 

From a developers point of view the lack of buzz & sales obviously harmed things from the start, there were some delays in getting the dev tools out, and they made the same mistake as Apple first made by only offering javascript as the language to use. Like Apple did when it allowed native apps, they are rectifying that problem but unlike Apple it may be too late.

Thinking about it the iphone really didnt have too many spectacular apps for quite some time after it first came out (not quite so noticable in UK due to later launch), Apple were lucky that at the time that it was not just 'all about the apps'. I would assume that apps are far more important now which makes it harder for everyone that follows Apple, although I think the extent to which app availability matters may be overstated at the moment - most of the iphone competitors have fallen down in some way with the hardware, core os functionality, marketing or price. If they got those things right from the get go then app/developer issues wouldnt have mattered so much or would have been overcome due to overall success and buzz, the momentum.

Im not sure we will learn much more about the state of things from watching Palm this year. Im more interested in how the steady rise of Android progresses, and how Windows Phone 7 fares.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2010)

elbows said:


> I dont sense that webOS has anything like the love that AmigaOS had back in the day.


In America, Palm is still a very big name, and even now you'll see a lot of Treos and Centros being used.

In the UK, Palm have never enjoyed anywhere near the same kind of popularity.


----------



## grit (Mar 23, 2010)

editor said:


> In America, Palm is still a very big name, and even now you'll see a lot of Treos and Centros being used.
> 
> In the UK, Palm have never enjoyed anywhere near the same kind of popularity.



At the moment the Americans are not too crazy about Palm either. The word viable is being thrown around.


----------



## g force (Mar 23, 2010)

Sunray said:


> See above, I don't think there is anyone that would do it to keep them afloat.
> 
> A private equity firm + patent troll might do it for the patents, risky that though. You'd be taking on the big ones and might lose.



Not sure a PE firm could afford it right now no matter who the jumped into bed with. Palm obv think they have a value, rightly, due to their patents and WebOS. There is an intrinsic value there but they might be forced to sell cheap just to stay afloat.

The issue for any investor is how do they get their money back? And when? Most PE firms want payback in 3 years as their exit strategy. Can't see that happening with Palm...lets say $300m (if it sells at $300m!) profit in 3 years for a firm currently losing $20m a quarter? Doesn't take a genius to figure out that getting funding for that sort of buy out in the current market would redefine "tricky". Where are the profits going to come from exactly?

Now another firm, maybe HTC could grab it and the potential 'loss' would be negligible and written off as an R&D expense. But would HTC really abandon the route it's taken to switch to WebOS?

Sadly unless Palm itself can turn things around I sense it may well die and then a mad scamble will begin for the patents.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2010)

Their main backers, Elevation Partners, have announced that they remain firmly behind the company.



> But Elevation, which bought a 25 percent stake in Palm for $325 mln in 2007, said the smartphone maker still has "enormous opportunity" and backed its management led by Chief Executive and Chairman Jon Rubinstein, a former member of Elevation who is also famous for developing Apple's iPod.
> 
> "Jon and his team have built the best mobile operating system available today and they are now working through short-term execution challenges with Elevation's complete support," Elevation said through a spokesman.



http://www.reuters.com/article/idCAN1916520720100319?rpc=44


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## Sunray (Mar 23, 2010)

Well, after putting their money where their mouth is, they are not going to say that its dead are they, they stand to lose a lot of money if they said anything else.

'Short term execution challenges'  you have to love them for that!  That needs to get written on Palm's headstone. 

Unless people start buying the phone over the iPhone or Blackberries , Palm is dead.  I can't see what Palm can do to make people do that.  I'm not gonna jump from a solid ship to one that's half sunk.


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## tarannau (Mar 23, 2010)

Palm is the new Psion. Too small to compete now. And unfortunately, Psion at least could morph into Symbian at a more amenable time. Now it's vs Apple, WM and Android, the latter two offering similar options to handset manufacturers.


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## grit (Mar 23, 2010)

editor said:


> Their main backers, Elevation Partners, have announced that they remain firmly behind the company.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/idCAN1916520720100319?rpc=44



Well owning 25% of Palm of fucking course they are going to say that. Each time the share price drops these guys are losing money. Considering they have already lost half of their investment.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2010)

grit said:


> Well owning 25% of Palm of fucking course they are going to say that. Each time the share price drops these guys are losing money. Considering they have already lost half of their investment.


You're quite wrong and miles out with your figures. 



> While Palm's share price has plunged 72 percent since the first deal in June 2007, the value of Elevation's investment has been maintained by the terms of the original deals.
> 
> Palm's filings show that Elevation has invested a total of $460 million in the company, an investment that is worth $432 million today based on Friday's close of $4.00.


----------



## grit (Mar 23, 2010)

editor said:


> You're quite wrong and miles out with your figures.



The previous quote you had stated 325 million for 25%, with a market cap of 650 million (ish). Its close to half of their investment.

Your further quote then says "the value of Elevation's investment has been maintained by the terms of the original deals." Which essentially means that Palm is hurting even more to keep these guys happy. The fact they had these "terms" shows quite a lack of confidence.

As sunray quoted "Short term execution challenges" <- that sets alarms ringing.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2010)

grit said:


> The previous quote you had stated 325 million for 25%, with a market cap of 650 million (ish). Its close to half of their investment.
> 
> Your further quote then says "the value of Elevation's investment has been maintained by the terms of the original deals." Which essentially means that Palm is hurting even more to keep these guys happy. The fact they had these "terms" shows quite a lack of confidence.
> 
> As sunray quoted "Short term execution challenges" <- that sets alarms ringing.


You can spin it all you like, but your orginal claim that "they have already lost half of their investment," remains as wrong as Billy Wrong on All Wrong's Day.


----------



## grit (Mar 23, 2010)

editor said:


> You can spin it all you like, but your orginal claim that "they have already lost half of their investment," remains as wrong as Billy Wrong on All Wrong's Day.



Its not spin its what the market says. I'll rephrase then.

The price of the stocks they have purchased are worth 50% of their original value. However they are not stupid and had some heavy duty terms and conditions in the purchase agreement to guard them if Palm doesnt get its shit together.

These terms have kicked in.


----------



## g force (Mar 23, 2010)

editor said:


> You can spin it all you like, but your orginal claim that "they have already lost half of their investment," remains as wrong as Billy Wrong on All Wrong's Day.



True but they paid $325m for a quarter of the firm. Hell will freeze over before anyone even thinks about buying Palm for $1.3billion, a firm that by it's own admission is losing $20m per financial quarter.

A lot rests on the 2010 performance, if they can arrest the decline that will be about as good as it will get.

Share price isn't a true reflection of the value of the firm - see Lehman Bros as an example


----------



## grit (Mar 23, 2010)

g force said:


> Share price isn't a true reflection of the value of the firm - see Lehman Bros as an example



Its a really good indicator, especially when the market gives it a guide price of $0 LOL


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2010)

grit said:


> Its a really good indicator, especially when the market gives it a guide price of $0 LOL


Why's that so amusing to you?


----------



## grit (Mar 23, 2010)

editor said:


> Why's that so amusing to you?



More shocking than amusing.


----------



## sumimasen (Mar 23, 2010)

editor said:


> Not sure why you should be furious. It's a great phone with the best mobile OS and just about all phones end up free/much cheaper after launch.



After 4 months?  Sell-on value has now being thrown to shit, and for it to go straight to free (not even an embarrassing half-price) suggests to me that the towel is being thrown in.  Further implications is the level of service I can expect from being a Pre owner.  I also foresee the UK Palm app store to be a shambolic excuse of aquality, as there seems to be little interest in making the Pre a powerhouse smartphone,


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2010)

sumimasen said:


> After 4 months?  Sell-on value has now being thrown to shit, and for it to go straight to free (not even an embarrassing half-price) suggests to me that the towel is being thrown in.  Further implications is the level of service I can expect from being a Pre owner.  I also foresee the UK Palm app store to be a shambolic excuse of aquality, as there seems to be little interest in making the Pre a powerhouse smartphone,


There's loads of excellent apps in the soon-come full Palm store, and there's always the chance that any phone you buy early will become free later. That's just how it works.

Palm's UK support is fucking shite though. Shockingly shite. I was very happy with my Pre - in several departments it thoroughly out-performs the iPhone - but their tech support was so bad I threw in the towel.


----------



## grit (Mar 23, 2010)

editor said:


> There's loads of excellent apps in the soon-come full Palm store, and there's always the chance that any phone you buy early will become free later. That's just how it works.



True but it was extremely quick for the pre to go free with any contract. That said the resale value of any phone is shit, often not even worth considering if its tied to a subsidized contract.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2010)

grit said:


> True but it was extremely quick for the pre to go free with any contract. That said the resale value of any phone is shit, often not even worth considering if its tied to a subsidized contract.


It's been on sale for nearly six months, so it's not that unusual for the price to drop. I never really consider the 'resale' value on my phones because I don't expect it to be too hot after 18 months.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2010)

The UK Palm catalogue is about to grow considerably larger with the paid app store kicking in on March 31st.

http://www.precentral.net/paid-app-catalog-going-international-march-31st


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 23, 2010)

Isn't this really too little too late?


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Isn't this really too little too late?


Well, I woud have been happy with the news if I still had my Pre.


----------



## g force (Mar 24, 2010)

It's a little like offering a new dessert from the kitchen's of the Titanic.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 24, 2010)

g force said:


> It's a little like offering a new dessert from the kitchen's of the Titanic.



Kinda my thinking and unless the Ed can convince 500,000 people to go buy a Pre and start paying for apps it's not going to make much difference at this point.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 24, 2010)

editor said:


> Well, I woud have been happy with the news if I still had my Pre.



Much as I admire your spirited defence of the Pre, come on, it's fucked


----------



## g force (Mar 26, 2010)

I think it's doubly fucked when a Palm advocate such as Ed, a guy who knows his technology etc gives up on it and switches to an iphone. I wonder how many consumers go in to a shop take one looik, hold it and think "nah i'll take the BlackBerry for free" or "for £50 I can get an iphone".

It's sad because the potential is huge but the Pre is a beta product.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2010)

g force said:


> I think it's doubly fucked when a Palm advocate such as Ed, a guy who knows his technology etc gives up on it and switches to an iphone. I wonder how many consumers go in to a shop take one looik, hold it and think "nah i'll take the BlackBerry for free" or "for £50 I can get an iphone".
> 
> It's sad because the potential is huge but the Pre is a beta product.


I think that's a bit harsh. Loads of people are enjoying the Pre and the Pixi, and the webOS is far superior to the iPhone's OS. UK support is dreadful though and that's what made me switch.

This guy loves his Pre so much, he's gone out and made his own advert - and it's better than the original Palm ones!

http://www.wirefresh.com/fan-makes-palm-pre-video-improves-on-original/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 26, 2010)

editor said:


> I think that's a bit harsh. Loads of people are enjoying the Pre and the Pixi, and the webOS is far superior to the iPhone's OS. UK support is dreadful though and that's what made me switch.
> 
> This guy loves his Pre so much, he's gone out and made his own advert - and it's better than the original Palm ones!
> 
> http://www.wirefresh.com/fan-makes-palm-pre-video-improves-on-original/



Loads of people isn't really a number, and it sure as hell isn't enough to save Palm. People going into an O2 shop aren't likely to buy the Pre now and releasing a new version isn't going to do much. 

The only hope for Palm is a buy out from a company with far deeper pockets than it has.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2010)

Palm's survival really hasn't got much to do with how popular they are in the UK.


----------



## elbows (Mar 26, 2010)

Im genuinely interested in how popular they are in the USA - I know the Palm brand had more love there in the past, but Im not exactly falling over people on the web who are gushing over WebOS - yes there were plenty of positive reviews but if you know of any communities I can find with people dancing with joy about WebOS then Id appreciate a link.

From what I have read from some quarters it doesnt sound like its only the UK operation which has some shambolic features, some people who were organising a big developers meetup for the Pre launch got very disheartened by how they were dealt with by Palm, but its hard to tell how much of that was their own fault.

Im also interested in how much the networks/stores are getting behind the Pre in the USA, Im not certain that O2s lack of effort is unique.


----------



## grit (Mar 26, 2010)

elbows said:


> Im genuinely interested in how popular they are in the USA - I know the Palm brand had more love there in the past, but Im not exactly falling over people on the web who are gushing over WebOS - yes there were plenty of positive reviews but if you know of any communities I can find with people dancing with joy about WebOS then Id appreciate a link.
> 
> From what I have read from some quarters it doesnt sound like its only the UK operation which has some shambolic features, some people who were organising a big developers meetup for the Pre launch got very disheartened by how they were dealt with by Palm, but its hard to tell how much of that was their own fault.
> 
> Im also interested in how much the networks/stores are getting behind the Pre in the USA, Im not certain that O2s lack of effort is unique.



It was a flop in the states as well, everyone thinks they are going down.


----------



## elbows (Mar 26, 2010)

OK Ive done some research of my own. Plenty of people who want it to do well, who like some things about webos. Plenty of complaints about build quality & support in the USA. Looks like the marketing has been lousy there too, and they have had issues with getting the carriers to promote it properly - not sure what the reasons are but maybe they just havent learnt how to team up with carriers properly, which could be fatal on its own let alone with the other problems. Complaints about app quantity, quality, lack of free apps.

Its a big shame - I want there to be multiple successful platforms at this stage in the mobile game, and some of the development stuff for webos looks quite good, albeit with some big omissions - apparently there is no microphone API which prevents apps using that, which rules out a few categories of apps for now.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2010)

Palm own an absolute killer OS - there's nothing as good anywhere - but they've shot themselves in the foot with poor management, weird advertising, and occasional quality control issues. Their UK launch was a comedy of errors, as I reported on wirefresh: http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-pre-why-it-failed-in-the-uk/


----------



## elbows (Mar 26, 2010)

Yeah ive followed your analysis of the Uk situation, was just trying to get a wider sense.

Anyway the other big problem they now have is perception of their possible failure will affect potential sales, people not wanting to end up with a dead duck, which will further compound Palms woes.

Having a good OS is not enough to save them now, they have to do something very special to get back on track, Im struggling to imagine how they will pull it off. Maybe they can stick with it and slowly get somewhere but Id be more inclined to expect a fairly rapid demise, especially if they cant shift the stock thats already out there.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 26, 2010)

editor said:
			
		

> Palm's survival really hasn't got much to do with how popular they are in the UK.



It's indicative of a wider problem, you can't sell to one Market and expect to survive in this day and age. Like I said Palm's only hope now is to get bought out. 

No amount of hope or crap fan adverts is going to save them.


----------



## editor (Mar 28, 2010)

Blimey: 





> Pundits across the Internet have been writing Palm's obituary since it reported a bad third quarter earlier this month and said the next quarter would be even worse. While Palm has said it will soldier on, it's still open to any fair offer, according to execs.
> 
> Of all the possible outcomes, purchasing Palm for patent protection is one of the worst next to bankruptcy. A smartphone vendor in need of patents to protect could buy Palm, which has a very old, rich library of patents related to phones, and keep just that as its shield against litigation by Apple (NASDAQ: AAPL), Research in Motion (NASDAQ: RIMM) or Motorola (NYSE: MOT).
> 
> ...


And not everyone thinks it's game over yet:


> "Palm has some time left. Not a great deal of time to change course, but they have time," he said. "I think everyone is throwing in the towel a little too quickly. They still have a path. Some may not hold them in good standing, but I think there's a lot more to it right now."


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 28, 2010)

Poor deluded fool...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 28, 2010)

Anyone been brave enough to over clock their's?



> Looking to harness the real power inside of your Pre (or Pre Plus) -- and you've upgraded to webOS 1.4? If that's the case, you're going to love what a couple of Palm-loving hackers have come up with. Namely, a major overclock kernel patch for the device which boosts the CPU speed from a measly 500MHz all the way up to a finger-searing 800MHz (there's also a more tame 720MHz variation available).



Engadget


----------



## sumimasen (Mar 31, 2010)

So today's D-Day, where the almighty Palm App Store opens for business in the UK.  Not that the o2 site are advertising this, perish the thought.


----------



## editor (Mar 31, 2010)

sumimasen said:


> So today's D-Day, where the almighty Palm App Store opens for business in the UK.  Not that the o2 site are advertising this, perish the thought.


o2 have to take a lot of the blame for the low sales of the Pre in the UK. 

Why the fuck they took it on when it's clear they have little or no interest in promoting the thing is anyone's guess. 

Maybe it was a strategic thing to stop other networks getting it?


----------



## elbows (Mar 31, 2010)

Maybe Palm are crap at building useful relationships with network operators, or making the deal good enough for the networks, because it doesnt seem like they have faired much better with their US partnerships either.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Mar 31, 2010)

It's true O2 have been terrible for Palm but Palm haven't done much for themselves either.


----------



## Sunray (Mar 31, 2010)

editor said:


> o2 have to take a lot of the blame for the low sales of the Pre in the UK.
> 
> Why the fuck they took it on when it's clear they have little or no interest in promoting the thing is anyone's guess.
> 
> *Maybe it was a strategic thing to stop other networks getting it?*



Totally.  Their advertising and Telefonics's general ad is that they are 'the home of the smart phone'  and with the only genuine challenger to the iPhone tucked in there, well they are aren't they.


----------



## sumimasen (Mar 31, 2010)

In news shocking enough to rival Ricky Martin's, there is no sign of an updated App Store on my Pre.


----------



## editor (Mar 31, 2010)

And in true Palm style, they haven't troubled themselves to tell customers (or the press) anything. 

Apparently, it's trickling out in Holland at the moment.


----------



## manifold (Apr 1, 2010)

Wow Palm. You've released a whole 10 new apps that i can pay for? And they're all games too? 

They even told me in excited announcement text that I could now download the accuweather app that's been both available and free for ages... I still love webOS but this is just shit.


----------



## editor (Apr 1, 2010)

Is there really only ten more apps?

FFS. Do you know their PR agency *still* hasn't responded to that piece I write about them back in February - and they promised me a reply 'within a few days.' 
They really are utterly fucking useless.


----------



## manifold (Apr 1, 2010)

They seem to be releasing the apps in waves - up to 720 from 500 last night when I posted. Maybe the developers have to give permission to sell overseas.


----------



## sumimasen (Apr 1, 2010)

If you try to tap on a paid app it comes up with an error message.

What. A. Fail.


----------



## editor (Apr 1, 2010)

Palm. Fail. Same amount of letters, so they could switch their logo over, no bother.

It's so depressing seeing what an arse they're making of this, and witnessing their horrendous public relations skills.


----------



## elbows (Apr 1, 2010)

Facepalm!


----------



## mack (Apr 1, 2010)




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## sumimasen (Apr 2, 2010)

Some apps on offer:
Tetris @ £5.07
Sudoku @ £3.62
PS3 cheat codes @ £5.07

If anyone has found any apps worth paying for please do share!


----------



## Piers Gibbon (Apr 2, 2010)

oh god it's like watching a car crash in slow motion


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## sumimasen (Apr 2, 2010)

I feel sorry for my Pre.... makes me love it even more

And I still feel relieved that I'm not the 15th person to take out an iphone around the pub table.


----------



## purplex (Apr 2, 2010)

I quite like mine, battery life is woeful, but it is a nice OS and browsing is OK on it, apps don't excite me so much, they will have to give me something I desparately need before Im going to spend money on them. 
There's a lot of gameloft games on there now if that's your bag, and like all app stores a whole load of crap. Still a lot of free apps.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 2, 2010)

sumimasen said:


> Some apps on offer:
> Tetris @ £5.07
> Sudoku @ £3.62
> PS3 cheat codes @ £5.07
> ...



5.07 for something you can get on gamespot for free, GTA China Town wars is 5.99 on iPhone.


----------



## editor (Apr 2, 2010)

sumimasen said:


> And I still feel relieved that I'm not the 15th person to take out an iphone around the pub table.


Tell me about it. I'm not very good being part of the iHorde.

Still, at least you know you've got the best, most productive operating system in your hand with the Pre


----------



## grit (Apr 8, 2010)

Bunch of rumors at the moment that Lenovo (!) may be interested in snapping up Palm. Their stock has jumped circa 20%.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 8, 2010)

grit said:


> Bunch of rumors at the moment that Lenovo (!) may be interested in snapping up Palm. Their stock has jumped circa 20%.



Is there any company that hasn't been rumoured to interested in buying Palm?


----------



## editor (Apr 8, 2010)

Lenovo could be a great match, although I'm not holding my breath on that one.


----------



## live_jayeola (Apr 8, 2010)

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/32495/palm-stock-rises-lenovo-buy-out


----------



## grit (Apr 8, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Is there any company that hasn't been rumoured to interested in buying Palm?



None (i think?) of them had been enough to move the market, this seemed to have a small bit more weight behind it, still totally unfounded rumors though


----------



## editor (Apr 8, 2010)

live_jayeola said:


> http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/32495/palm-stock-rises-lenovo-buy-out


Bah! I ran the story way before them!

http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-shares-leap-20-as-lenovo-takeover-rumours-circulate/


----------



## editor (Apr 8, 2010)

Here's a frank and rather honest interview with Palm CEO, Jon Rubinstein:

http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2010/04/08/palm-ceo-puts-his-cards-on-the-table/


----------



## grit (Apr 8, 2010)

editor said:


> Here's a frank and rather honest interview with Palm CEO, Jon Rubinstein:
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...to-introduce-mobile-advertising-platform.html



wrong link?!


----------



## hiccup (Apr 8, 2010)

Wow, you can get two Palm Pre Plus handsets for $50 in the states now (with a contract):

http://www.pocket-lint.com//news/32405/palm-pre-pixi-prices-slashed


----------



## editor (Apr 8, 2010)

grit said:


> wrong link?!


Ooops. Sorry:
http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2010/04/08/palm-ceo-puts-his-cards-on-the-table/


----------



## editor (Apr 9, 2010)

Tthe shares are now leaping up 12% on the rumours of HTC being interested in taking over Palm. 

HTC and webOS would be a marriage made in heaven! Bring it on!!!!

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/palm-shares-rise-12-in-pre-market-trade-2010-04-09


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 9, 2010)

Hmm at this point I'm wondering if someone is about to dump a lot of Palm stock, too many rumours boosting share value...


----------



## paolo (Apr 9, 2010)

editor said:


> Tthe shares are now leaping up 12% on the rumours of HTC being interested in taking over Palm.
> 
> HTC and webOS would be a marriage made in heaven! Bring it on!!!!
> 
> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/palm-shares-rise-12-in-pre-market-trade-2010-04-09



The survival of webOS needs brand reach. I don't think HTC is known to anyone but gadget geeks. Terrible fit, unless HTC have a massive warchest for marketing.


----------



## elbows (Apr 9, 2010)

You would think that its still early enough in the really smartphone evolution for Palms OS to be worth something, worth buying palm for. The brand isnt completely and utterly worthless yet either.


----------



## editor (Apr 9, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> The survival of webOS needs brand reach. I don't think HTC is known to anyone but gadget geeks. Terrible fit, unless HTC have a massive warchest for marketing.


Eh? HTC are one of the most successful smartphone makers, raking in huge profits with millions of people already owning their products!



> HTC has gone from a respected but low key phone manufacturer making Windows Mobile handsets to be branded up by other companies (like the O2 XDA range) to one of the most exciting mobile brands on the planet.
> 
> Although it is still making goods for others – like the Google Nexus One for example – it is phones like the HTC HD2, perhaps the finest current Windows Phone, and the Android-toting Hero, Desire and Legend that have catapulted the company to a whole new plane.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 9, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> The survival of webOS needs brand reach. I don't think HTC is known to anyone but gadget geeks. Terrible fit, unless HTC have a massive warchest for marketing.



Don't agree even people I know who used to refer to all smartphones as blackberries have mentioned HTC by name recently. I think the brand is seeping into general conscious due to the rise of the iPhone and Blackberry.


----------



## paolo (Apr 9, 2010)

Compared with Dell, Nokia, Sony, LG et al they're a nobody brand.

And are they a bigger brand than Palm?

The idea that all the Pre needs is an HTC badge and it'll fly out of the shops is nonsense.


----------



## elbows (Apr 9, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> The idea that all the Pre needs is an HTC badge and it'll fly out of the shops is nonsense.



I dont think people are suggesting that. I think the idea is that HTC would do better hardware and might make less of an arse of dealing with the network operators.


----------



## paolo (Apr 9, 2010)

I don't believe that Palm's issues are related to hardware.

As for dealing with Network operators, that may well be more pertinant.

But... Anyone playing in this market now has to take on Apple (and Google, to a lesser degree right now). It's a big ask and deep pockets and/or brand reach is what's needed.


----------



## editor (Apr 9, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> I don't believe that Palm's issues are related to hardware.


I disagree. Palm currently has the best OS but a very limited number of handsets available. 

HTC are recognised as one of the leading designers and manufacturers of high end smartphones.

Palm's webOS + HTC handset design = world'o'win in my book.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 9, 2010)

What's the build quality like on htc phones these days?


----------



## editor (Apr 9, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> What's the build quality like on htc phones these days?


Looks pretty easy on the eye to me. 









> But that’s not to say this isn’t one beautifully crafted piece of kit. From the cold metal feel, right through to the heft of the device in your hand, the HTC Legend screams quality. Sure, it’s a copycat design, but it’s also a very good one.


http://www.electricpig.co.uk/2010/03/09/htc-legend-review-design-and-build-quality/


----------



## paolo (Apr 9, 2010)

editor said:


> I disagree. Palm currently has the best OS but a very limited number of handsets available.
> 
> HTC are recognised as one of the leading designers and manufacturers of high end smartphones.
> 
> Palm's webOS + HTC handset design = world'o'win in my book.



They are undoubtedly the leading hardware designers. No question.

To focus on that ignores so many other issues - which the Palm CEO himself recognises. (Thanks for that interview link by the way - very frank, a good read).


----------



## editor (Apr 9, 2010)

Fancy running some Linux applications on your Palm Pre?

No problem!



> iPhone OS is on perpetual lockdown. Android hacking's boring, considering the platform's Linux credentials. It's webOS, Palm's Linux-based OS, where some of the best gratuitous, for-the-hell-of-it hacking is taking place nowadays. Exhibit A: OpenOffice, running on a Pre. A Pre!
> 
> http://gizmodo.com/5513510/your-palm-pre-can-now-run-basically-any-linux-application


----------



## editor (Apr 10, 2010)

Engadget are feeling the HTC + Palm love, big time!
http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/09/editorial-htc-and-palm-should-get-hitched-and-make-beautiful-ba/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 10, 2010)

Interesting...


----------



## paolo (Apr 10, 2010)

A selection of analysts opinions in this MarketWatch article:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/palm-fueled-by-rumors-but-price-would-be-high-2010-04-09


----------



## Crispy (Apr 12, 2010)

Palm actively looking for a buyer now, apparently
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=arvXvuu.DqW4


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 12, 2010)

editor said:


> I disagree. Palm currently has the best OS but a very limited number of handsets available.
> 
> HTC are recognised as one of the leading designers and manufacturers of high end smartphones.
> 
> Palm's webOS + HTC handset design = world'o'win in my book.



Can I have it on a Touch HD2 or an Evo please?


----------



## editor (Apr 12, 2010)

Global_Stoner said:


> Can I have it on a Touch HD2 or an Evo please?


The Palm webOS on a Touch HD2 or Desire would be *awesome*.


----------



## editor (Apr 12, 2010)

Palm now supposedly definitely up for sale. HTC still a name associated with a takeoever.
http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-is-up-for-sale/


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 12, 2010)

Here's to hoping. I think it could do them some good having an OS to call their own, especially as all the new windows phones will be much more uniform and they will have no chance to put sense/touchflo on to personalize them.


----------



## manifold (Apr 12, 2010)

editor said:


> Fancy running some Linux applications on your Palm Pre? No problem!


That's got me a little excited again now.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 12, 2010)

HTC buying Palm would be very cook indeed, it'd be ideal thinking about it. A great os on great hardware to really take on Google and Apple, just what the smartphone market needs.

Now just watch as Apple fucking buys them out for their patent portfolio...


----------



## grit (Apr 12, 2010)

manifold said:


> That's got me a little excited again now.



Why? what would you run?


----------



## grit (Apr 12, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> A great os on great hardware to really take on Google and Apple, just what the smartphone market needs.



They are shipping Android devices, they are not in competition with google.


----------



## manifold (Apr 12, 2010)

grit said:


> Why? what would you run?


Well, Open Office for one.  No doc editing on the Pre at the moment as far as I know.


----------



## grit (Apr 12, 2010)

manifold said:


> Well, Open Office for one.  No doc editing on the Pre at the moment as far as I know.



You mean like the desktop version of Open Office?


----------



## manifold (Apr 12, 2010)

I don't think there's a 'light' version, but it looked like the full version in the video Editor linked to


----------



## editor (Apr 13, 2010)

Linux Firefox (more or less fully) ported to the Pre!

I wish webOS would gain more traction because there's clearly loads of fun to be had with such an open device. 

http://www.precentral.net/firefox-ported-webos-pdk-blame-madness


----------



## grit (Apr 13, 2010)

editor said:


> Linux Firefox (more or less fully) ported to the Pre!
> 
> I wish webOS would gain more traction because there's clearly loads of fun to be had with such an open device.
> 
> http://www.precentral.net/firefox-ported-webos-pdk-blame-madness



Why on earth would anyone bother??


----------



## editor (Apr 13, 2010)

grit said:


> Why on earth would anyone bother??


Great things come from hacking and experimenting.


----------



## grit (Apr 13, 2010)

editor said:


> Great things come from hacking and experimenting.



Getting desktop versions of applications running on hardware where they cant really be used, is not one of these instances.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 13, 2010)

From the full article, it seems it's the Android version of Firefox, so it's a mobile-friendly one, but the UI doesn't seem to fit very well on the Pre screen (from the screenshot you can see the "http://" of the address bar, but not the actual address).

It's a good start though, by a single person doing the port.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 13, 2010)

One of the more interesting things I've read (and pondered) regarding Palm buyout is Nintendo taking it over. Can't see it myself but then if Ninty wanted to steam into the phone market and bring it's MASSIVE IP back catalogue with it I reckon that might raise a few eyebrows over at Apple!


----------



## grit (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm starting to wonder if they will find a buyer. The concept of throwing good money after bad comes to mind. For example if a takeover was going to happen why wouldnt have people pounced when it was at $3

E2A: Nice post showing the complete fuck up the whole thing has been

http://www.mondaynote.com/2010/03/21/who-will-buy-palm/


----------



## Sunray (Apr 13, 2010)

I like the idea they could license WebOS, something they should have done that straight away.  With Android slow but now rapid take up there was some desperation in the ranks to take on the iPhone.

Android is nothing to WebOS


----------



## grit (Apr 13, 2010)

Sunray said:


> I like the idea they could license WebOS, something they should have done that straight away.  With Android slow but now rapid take up there was some desperation in the ranks to take on the iPhone.
> 
> Android is nothing to WebOS



You sure you dont mean the Android interface is nothing to the WebOS interface?

WebOS is essentially WebKit on linux.


----------



## editor (Apr 13, 2010)

grit said:


> You sure you dont mean the Android interface is nothing to the WebOS interface?
> 
> WebOS is essentially WebKit on linux.


You make it sound like it's been slapped together in half an hour when in fact it's pretty much recognised as the best mobile OS out there.

It's certainly the best I've ever used.


----------



## grit (Apr 13, 2010)

editor said:


> You make it sound like it's been slapped together in half an hour when in fact it's pretty much recognised as the best mobile OS out there.
> 
> It's certainly the best I've ever used.



Not at all, its just down to the architecture. WebOS is essentially a visual layer on top of a regular linux kernal. The bottom layers are pretty generic, its the user interface that's put on top of it that makes it magic. So its easy to put it on top of something else. If someone does buy them, I hope its RIM. They have the good hardware that fits the WebOS concept and an interface that by their own admission is not really up to much.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Not at all, its just down to the architecture. WebOS is essentially a visual layer on top of a regular linux kernal. The bottom layers are pretty generic, its the user interface that's put on top of it that makes it magic. So its easy to put it on top of something else. If someone does buy them, I hope its RIM. They have the good hardware that fits the WebOS concept and an interface that by their own admission is not really up to much.



They might make a consumer version or just keep Palm.

Blackberries are part of a larger system for employees of large companies.  The blackberry OS has full end to end encryption of all its data, one of its key marketing points.

That is something that cannot be shoehorned into an OS it has to be built in from the very start.


----------



## grit (Apr 14, 2010)

Sunray said:


> They might make a consumer version or just keep Palm.
> 
> Blackberries are part of a larger system for employees of large companies.  The blackberry OS has full end to end encryption of all its data, one of its key marketing points.
> 
> That is something that cannot be shoehorned into an OS it has to be built in from the very start.



Its not a trivial job to do it, but with that particular combination its the least messy.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2010)

(((Palm)))

It's Commodore all over again!

Palm Shake-Up Imminent, Rubinstein May Be Out
http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/23/palm-shake-up/

Is Palm Crumbling Before Our Eyes?
http://mashable.com/2010/04/23/palm-crumbling


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 24, 2010)

Buy out any day now then...


----------



## flutterbye (Apr 27, 2010)

The Preware package manager is ace, provides easy access to all the available app stores and configuration patches which add some really nice functionality to the phone. Essential IMO.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2010)

There's so much to like about Palm, but the company just aren't too interested in the UK.
I'm *still* waiting their promised response to my article from February.


----------



## grit (Apr 27, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Buy out any day now then...



I'm half considering dumping a few hundred quid into the stock if the rumors really gain traction. The question is, does anyone really want them?


----------



## g force (Apr 27, 2010)

I doubt it...why by Palm and service it's considerable debts when Android exists already and is backed by Google? Makes no sense for Dell, or RIM or just about anyone else.


----------



## grit (Apr 27, 2010)

g force said:


> I doubt it...why by Palm and service it's considerable debts when Android exists already and is backed by Google? Makes no sense for Dell, or RIM or just about anyone else.



Exactly, I'm not sure if people are willing to spend 500 odd million quid for a few patents.


----------



## Lazy Llama (Apr 28, 2010)

So it's HP.

Buying Palm for $1.2bn

http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2010/100428xa.html


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 28, 2010)

Lazy Llama said:


> So it's HP.
> 
> Buying Palm for $1.2bn
> 
> http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2010/100428xa.html



Wish it had been HTC. 

Still plenty of cash behind them, be interesting to see what hardware they choose to put WebOS on. I'm hoping for a much larger screened device with a physical keyboard.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 28, 2010)

I don't see that as being a very good fit.

HP don't make smart phones for any sector so aren't even a player.  Are they trying to take on the world with a failed platform?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 28, 2010)

Don't they make the Ipaq at the moment? It could be a move to be more consumer friendly and move away from winmo.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 28, 2010)

Oh yeah so they do, the iPaq was a compaq brand.

That set the world alight.

Clearly they can make some nice hardware, but they are very stern and business focused company.  That's where they made all their money.  

Consumer's orientated stuff always seem a bit of an afterthought with HP


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 28, 2010)

Sunray said:


> Oh yeah so they do, the iPaq was a compaq brand.
> 
> That set the world alight.



Never used one, assume its just another me to winmo device (although I think it may have been one of the first "pocket pc's)

It would make sense to buy another company who are better at it then they are. Only time will tell I guess.


----------



## tarannau (Apr 28, 2010)

It's not as bad as it could be i guess; HP are a huge company, with their tentacles in pretty much all areas of IT. Rather them than someone like Dell.

Whether they've really the focus and skills is another matter. Neither Palm or HP have ever really set the world alight with handset design in the past. Good OS, but there's a hell of a lot of work to do.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 28, 2010)

WebOS despite some serious press praise and actually being pretty good, failed.

I can't see how HP can remove the stranglehold that Apple and its App's have.  HP have never produced anything as consumer focused as the iPhone and iTunes.  Their laptops might be sold to the public, but it seems that no matter how hard HP try, cant quite get away from being a corporate company.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 28, 2010)

Lazy Llama said:
			
		

> So it's HP.
> 
> Buying Palm for $1.2bn
> 
> http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2010/100428xa.html



Real shame it isn't HTC...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 28, 2010)

Sunray said:


> WebOS despite some serious press praise and actually being pretty good, failed.
> 
> I can't see how HP can remove the stranglehold that Apple and its App's have.  HP have never produced anything as consumer focused as the iPhone and iTunes.  Their laptops might be sold to the public, but it seems that no matter how hard HP try, cant quite get away from being a corporate company.



Price Differentiation? If they can provide devices of a similar spec, make them "free" on contract and market them well that could give them advantage. The last part will probably prove hardest. TBH I'd say their biggest competition won't be from apple, but from the many android devices that will be released before they get any new hardware out. 

If they can make sure they hit all the networks, that would be a massive step up as well.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 28, 2010)

HTC would have been a terrible partner.  

They are a huge Taiwanese company that have made a name for themselves making other people stuff.  In recent years they have made a further name for themselves copying the best bits of other peoples phones.


----------



## flutterbye (Apr 28, 2010)

Webos will make a great tablet OS, battery life is my only qualm with my pre, functionally its superb.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 28, 2010)

flutterbye said:


> Webos will make a great tablet OS, battery life is my only qualm with my pre, functionally its superb.



Looks like you may be right



> The word is that Palm's existing hardware roadmap is basically untouched at this point by this acquisition, but the good news on the HP end of things is that the company sees webOS as a "prized asset," and they intend to "scale it across multiple connected devices." That sounds like tablets to us, and HP didn't beat back that assumption.



Engadget


----------



## Sunray (Apr 29, 2010)

I think that its wait and see.

I am assuming they are going to be keeping Palm as an entity.  Consuming it into HP will lose the creative talents that made WebOS.  Just need to underpin their hardware division with some extra industrial quality, sadly lacking in the Pre by all accounts.


----------



## grit (Apr 29, 2010)

As an ex HP employee, this really makes me sad, they are going to fuck it up. Its the most ridiculous company I've ever had the misfortune working for.


----------



## g force (Apr 29, 2010)

Too early to call but HP doesn't seem a great fit. HP's very problem is its size and reach into all sorts of things. I does good printers, but so it should. After that the company is a mish-mash of conflicting ideas...christ they spend tens of millions a year on a copywriting agency to try understand what they do internally.


----------



## flutterbye (Apr 29, 2010)

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1603448/hp-buys-palm



> In fact the only person who is crying into his beer is the Celtic crooner and smug purveyor of Irish noise, Bono. Apparently he lost an estimated £92 million on the deal.


----------



## Sunray (Apr 29, 2010)

Oh, thats got to hurt!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 29, 2010)

Great news!


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## editor (Apr 29, 2010)

I think HP are going to be a great fit for Palm. They're a hugely successful electronics manufacturer who spend a lot of money in R&D. There could be some really interesting stuff coming up!


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## grit (Apr 29, 2010)

editor said:


> I think HP are going to be a great fit for Palm. They're a hugely successful electronics manufacturer who spend a lot of money in R&D. There could be some really interesting stuff coming up!



Who are plagued by ridiculous lack of internal management and have failed consistently to produce any real successful consumer mobile electronics.

Your just happy_* someone*_ has bought them


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## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 29, 2010)

editor said:


> I think HP are going to be a great fit for Palm. They're a hugely successful electronics manufacturer who spend a lot of money in R&D. There could be some really interesting stuff coming up!



Yeah, right.

Anything they come out with now is too little , too late. The Pre was their chance and they fucked it.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 29, 2010)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Yeah, right.
> 
> Anything they come out with now is too little , too late. The Pre was their chance and they fucked it.



Depends on how much their willing to spend. The Pre didn't fail because it was a bad product, but because it was poorly marketed. Some new products and a decent marketing budget could change that. 

I think a web OS tablet could be interesting as well, the ipad has ignited interest in the form factor and most of them just don't have the grunt to run a desktop OS well.


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## elbows (Apr 29, 2010)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Yeah, right.
> 
> Anything they come out with now is too little , too late. The Pre was their chance and they fucked it.



The Pre was Palms last chance as a standalone company, but I think its much too early to say what will happen as part of HP.


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## Lazy Llama (Apr 29, 2010)

The first MP3 player I ever owned was designed by DEC/Compaq (now part of HP), so they did some relatively innovative work in consumer electronics, though this was back in 2000.
They didn't make or sell it themselves but they did do the design work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Jukebox - I still have it, with a 40GB drive in, instead of the 6GB it came with, and last time I checked, it still worked. Went round the world with me too.


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## editor (Apr 29, 2010)

grit said:


> Who are plagued by ridiculous lack of internal management and have failed consistently to produce any real successful consumer mobile electronics.


Would this be the same 'unsuccessful' company currently selling more computers than any other manufacturer on the planet?

http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1353330


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## grit (Apr 29, 2010)

editor said:


> Would this be the same 'unsuccessful' company currently selling more computers than any other manufacturer on the planet?
> 
> http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1353330




Where did I claim that their OEM business was unsuccessful? 

E2A: The company has been through some rough times, looks to have stabilised now. The point I was making is that this is not something they traditionally would be strong in. I think Palm people are going to have a difficult time adjusting. Which doesn't lead to a good product.


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## editor (Apr 29, 2010)

HP are keen to get into netbooks and slate products. The webOS is already a superior OS to the  iPhone/iPad's, so mix Palm's OS with HP's world beating computing expertise and it's not hard to see vast amounts of potential for some really interesting new devices.


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## Kid_Eternity (Apr 29, 2010)

I still would have preferred HTC but this is better than Palm going under and the innovative WebOS ceasing to be. The smartphone market seriously need a strong mix of OS' for people to choose from. And the coming tablet market too...can't wait to see what HP do with Palm!


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## Lazy Llama (Apr 29, 2010)

It'll be interesting to see whether HP integrate Palm or keep it as a distinct unit as it used to be under US Robotics and 3Com. 

If integrated it'll be a shame to see the brand die though I think it's now been shown that it's not a brand with a strong presence any more.


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## sumimasen (Apr 29, 2010)

So where does this leave the humble Palm Pre owner?


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## editor (Apr 29, 2010)

sumimasen said:


> So where does this leave the humble Palm Pre owner?


In a much happier place I'd imagine, as it looks like HP are going to throw loads of cash at their platform.


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## sumimasen (May 1, 2010)

As long as they're interested in mobiles rather than all this talk about tablets above!


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## flutterbye (May 1, 2010)

Lazy Llama said:


> It'll be interesting to see whether HP integrate Palm or keep it as a distinct unit as it used to be under US Robotics and 3Com.
> 
> If integrated it'll be a shame to see the brand die though I think it's now been shown that it's not a brand with a strong presence any more.



http://www.precentral.net/palm-operate-business-unit-within-hp
_



			Here’s the word, straight from HP during today’s conference call: “We intend to operate it as a business unit, which is in line with the way we’re structured today.”
		
Click to expand...

_


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## editor (May 6, 2010)

After facing a wall of silence and disinterest from Palm, I've suddenly had one of their UK directors on the phone, promising me early review models of the Palm Pre Plus and Pixi Plus, and an extended loan of a Pre for evaluating apps - and a personal pre-release hands-on.

All very encouraging. I'm really intrugued by the Pixi Plus. It's not a phone for me, but I can see people liking it.


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## Piers Gibbon (May 6, 2010)

that is encouraging

Palm's reluctance to engage with the public has always mystified me....someone needs to point out to them that when they have graphs saying "Units Purchased" it is PEOPLE doing the purchasing


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## editor (May 11, 2010)

Palm delivered on their promise and I'm now holding an (original) Palm Pre on extended load. 

First impression is that it's a lovely size and the OS is as pleasant as ever, but the overall experience has fallen a bit behind the 3GS, mainly because of the apps.


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## Kid_Eternity (May 11, 2010)

editor said:
			
		

> Palm delivered on their promise and I'm now holding an (original) Palm Pre on extended load.
> 
> First impression is that it's a lovely size and the OS is as pleasant as ever, but the overall experience has fallen a bit behind the 3GS, mainly because of the apps.



First impression? Didn't you own one before?


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## editor (May 11, 2010)

Kid_Eternity said:


> First impression? Didn't you own one before?


Well, first impressions in light of not owning one for five  months!


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## flutterbye (May 11, 2010)

preware is what you need


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## editor (May 11, 2010)

Yeah, I was on that before. I forgot how small the Pre is compared to the iPhone. I keep losing it!


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## Kid_Eternity (May 11, 2010)

editor said:
			
		

> Well, first impressions in light of not owning one for five  months!



Heh ah right.


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## Kid_Eternity (May 11, 2010)

editor said:
			
		

> Yeah, I was on that before. I forgot how small the Pre is compared to the iPhone. I keep losing it!



Was playing with a mates blackberry earlier, tiny little light thing compared to the hefty iPhone..!


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## WWWeed (May 19, 2010)

*So there not dead yet then...*



> O2 has followed its exclusive on the Palm Pre with the new Pre Plus and Pixi Plus smartphones, the telco said today.
> 
> Both handsets will be available on the network on 28 May. Trying for an iPad spoiler, O2?
> 
> ...



taken from http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2010/05/19/o2_palm_pre_plus_pixi_plus/


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

The pricing is daft. Who's going to shell out £25/month for two years for a Pre Plus when you can get a HTC Desire? And they're stuck on fucking o2 again.



Full price plans here: http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-pre-plus-and-pixi-plus-in-uk-on-may-28th-daft-prices-again/


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## beesonthewhatnow (May 19, 2010)

Palm really do seem intent on fucking themselves up as much as possible, don't they?


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## editor (May 19, 2010)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Palm really do seem intent on fucking themselves up as much as possible, don't they?


The Pre and Pixis are very nice phones, but you'd have to be a fucking nutter to spend what o2 are asking when you can get better phones on more established platforms for less.


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## Kid_Eternity (May 19, 2010)

That's idiotic...but not surprising coming from Palm.


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## editor (May 20, 2010)

Early review for the UK Pre Plus. It's not tremendously good. http://www.pocket-lint.com/review/4773/palm-pre-plus-smartphone-review

Palm have lost far too much ground here and offering an all-plastic phone in direct competition with the Desire, iPhone, Blackberry etc is_ insane. _


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## beesonthewhatnow (May 20, 2010)

Palm are nuts. Imagine if they produced something like the Desire, but running WebOS...


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## g force (May 20, 2010)

That review neatly sums up what's wrong with it. Great OS, shit handset quality and a pretty crap app store. All plastic case? Really Palm? Really???

HP really need to step in quick smart and get that sorted. Fuck it...outsource the handset design to HTC if you have to.


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## editor (May 20, 2010)

The webOS is so good and intuitive that whenever I spend five minutes on the Pre I get immediately frustrated by the limitations of my iPhone. The gesture area is genius as is the card multi-tasking, but the hardware and software is miles behind.

Palm owners in Europe get a shit deal compared to US users too.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (May 20, 2010)

Madness. If were HP I'd make sure they were given away on cheap contracts, get more phones out there, people talk about them, developers will be more interested as there are more handsets. Even if they made a loss doing so, it would help massively when the next gen of hardware comes out and had brand recognition.  

Ed: What do you mean the software is miles behind? Do you mean the apps for it or the syncing software?


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## editor (May 27, 2010)

Palm Pre Plus gets reviewed here and us as you might suspect: praise for the webOS but a big downer on the ridiculous price and lack of apps: http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/smartphones/358141/palm-pre-plus


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## Lazy Llama (May 27, 2010)

O2 had an advert for the Pixi Plus in the Metro yesterday.

I don't think it mentioned the price though.


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## editor (May 27, 2010)

Palm's VP of Human Interface and User Experience - the fella mainly responsible for the lovely webOS interface -  has jumped ship to become User Experience Director for Android.

 Palm 
 Android

http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/6433/palm-ui-chief-departs-for-google/


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## grit (May 27, 2010)

editor said:


> Palm's VP of Human Interface and User Experience - the fella mainly responsible for the lovely webOS interface -  has jumped ship to become User Experience Director for Android.
> 
> Palm
> Android
> ...



Didnt think those guys would like the culture at HP.


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## sumimasen (Aug 24, 2010)

BUMP.

Don't buy a Pre unless you want a battery life that lasts use till lunchtime, dropped calls every fucking time, an appstore that's laughable, and buggy software to boot.

Ive had it since launch, and regret it hardcore.


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## editor (Aug 24, 2010)

The battery life wasn't so bad, but the app store is a joke. That said, the Pre still has the best OS of any mobile platform - but that's a fat lot of good if there's no decent apps to run.


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## Kid_Eternity (Aug 24, 2010)

sumimasen said:


> BUMP.
> 
> Don't buy a Pre unless you want a battery life that lasts use till lunchtime, dropped calls every fucking time, an appstore that's laughable, and buggy software to boot.
> 
> Ive had it since launch, and regret it hardcore.


 
Very happy I never waited for it and got an iPhone 3GS instead...very happy indeed.


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## manifold (Aug 25, 2010)

I've just given up on the Pre after the screen cracked by itself. The battery wasn't too bad, but the internal clock was a joke (there isn't one), and on more than one occasion something or other left me fuming.

The app catalogue on the iphone is fantastic, but like ed says the OS on the Pre was a step above. I'm missing that, the notifications, the contact linking (not played enough with the iphone yet, so hope there's something similar) and the keyboard, but practically all the rest of the Pre can go hang.


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## Radar (Aug 28, 2010)

Your Pre should still be under warrenty,wouldn't a cracked screen be covered unless it was caused by abuse.

The power button on my own pre died a couple of week back. I bounced it back to O2 and they had it back a week later as good as new.


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## editor (Aug 28, 2010)

manifold said:


> I've just given up on the Pre after the screen cracked by itself. The battery wasn't too bad, but the internal clock was a joke (there isn't one), and on more than one occasion something or other left me fuming.
> 
> The app catalogue on the iphone is fantastic, but like ed says the OS on the Pre was a step above. I'm missing that, the notifications, the contact linking (not played enough with the iphone yet, so hope there's something similar) and the keyboard, but practically all the rest of the Pre can go hang.


The iPhone doesn't do proper contact linking - Android does a far better job of it.


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## sumimasen (Sep 6, 2010)

I now have to return my 2nd Pre for repair, and just like last time I'm fucked because I have hundreds of business-related texts that I will lose. I can't even back them up, my Samsung from 5 years ago could do so though!


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## editor (Sep 6, 2010)

sumimasen said:


> I now have to return my 2nd Pre for repair, and just like last time I'm fucked because I have hundreds of business-related texts that I will lose. I can't even back them up, my Samsung from 5 years ago could do so though!


You can if you follow these fiddly instructions:



> Didn't see anything like this on the forums so figured I'd share my experience in saving my SMS messages, call log, and possibly other things when exchanging my Pre today.
> 
> This should theoretically work for backing up information as well, in case you are worried about bricking your phone, wipe clean every so often, etc.
> 
> ...



Or an easier, but more time consuming way:


> The only way I was able to do it was to use the "Copy All" feature in the text thread and paste it in an email. It doesn't save the entire conversation though it saves it in sections depending on where in the thread you are at.
> 
> I needed to get an entire thread about 2 months long backed up, so I went to the very top of the thread, did the "Copy all" option and repeated as I scrolled down through the conversation. Once you do that 2 or 3 times, you'll get an idea of how big a chunk of the conversation is being copied.
> 
> This is much faster then clicking on each individual text and copying into an email.


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## sumimasen (Sep 6, 2010)

Cheers Ed, though I don't want to root in case o2 use that as an excuse for the numerous issues I have with the phone. Ive already tried the 2nd method, it's unbearably crap lol


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## editor (Sep 6, 2010)

I'm sorry you had such a shit time with the Pre. It looked such a great phone when it was announced too


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## Radar (Sep 6, 2010)

If you web doctor it back to standard 1.4.5 there's no trace left on the original phone. Anyhow my pre went back and it had been hacked around with something rotten, yet O2's repair people didn't seem to care


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## Sunray (Sep 6, 2010)

I was looking at the release notes for WebOS 2.0  

Palm, your having a laugh if you think that is a full point release?  It hardly brings anything new to the table.

http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/webos_20_now_available_for_download.php



> Exhibition
> 
> Exhibition is a screensaver-like program that runs when the phone is docked. It can display slideshows, a clock, stock updates, news, or sports tickers but can also be customized through apps created by developers.



A screen saver?


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 6, 2010)

It's fucked, why are they bothering?


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## editor (Sep 6, 2010)

Sunray said:


> I was looking at the release notes for WebOS 2.0
> 
> Palm, your having a laugh if you think that is a full point release?  It hardly brings anything new to the table.


Hold on - Palm have certainly lost ground, but the new grouped/multi-tasking interface _completely _pisses over anything Apple and Android can manage - and neither have managed to come up with cordless charging too.

http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-webos-2-0-offers-even-better-multi-tasking-and-search/


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 6, 2010)

editor said:


> Hold on - Palm have certainly lost ground, but the new grouped/multi-tasking interface _completely _pisses over anything Apple and Android can manage - and neither have managed to come up with cordless charging too.
> 
> http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-webos-2-0-offers-even-better-multi-tasking-and-search/


 
Cordless charging or a slightly less complicated way to switch tasks aren't going to save it. Nobody will give a fuck.  They had a chance and blew it pretty much every step of the way.


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## paolo (Sep 6, 2010)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Cordless charging or a slightly less complicated way to switch tasks aren't going to save it. Nobody will give a fuck.  They had a chance and blew it pretty much every step of the way.


 
Yep.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 6, 2010)

Things Palm fucked up:

- The huge lead time without giving a launch date
- Bugger all PR
- Finally releasing it close to an iPhone launch
- Going with O2 as a carrier
- Fuck all in the app store
- Crap tech support



Any more?


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## editor (Sep 6, 2010)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Cordless charging or a slightly less complicated way to switch tasks aren't going to save it. Nobody will give a fuck.  They had a chance and blew it pretty much every step of the way.


I'm not disagreeing with that, but Sunray's comment were a little unfair - the new release does bring some interesting new features. It's just a shame that the OS and the hardware never kept up with the brilliant OS.


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## editor (Sep 6, 2010)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Things Palm fucked up:
> 
> - The huge lead time without giving a launch date
> - Bugger all PR
> ...


 I think I covered it pretty much in these wirefresh articles: 

http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-pre-why-it-failed-in-the-uk/
http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-in-the-uk-its-pretty-hopeless-really/
http://www.wirefresh.com/o2s-website-spot-the-palm-pre/
http://www.wirefresh.com/carphone-warehouse-and-palm-pre-the-palm-what/
http://www.wirefresh.com/palm-pres-uk-pricing-our-thoughts/


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## Sunray (Sep 6, 2010)

editor said:


> I'm not disagreeing with that, but Sunray's comment were a little unfair - the new release does bring some interesting new features. It's just a shame that the OS and the hardware never kept up with the brilliant OS.


 
Its not that brilliant, some features are good, but the odd good feature does not make a good phone.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 6, 2010)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Things Palm fucked up:
> 
> - The huge lead time without giving a launch date
> - Bugger all PR
> ...



Going head to head with the iPhone without a proper PR campaign was insane, in fact beyond insane...hopefully HP will do a better job with the next devices (I expect the tablet WebOS to be a big deal if done right)...


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## mauvais (Sep 7, 2010)

I just looked at what you can do with the webOS API, in considering whether it's a viable platform for developing a commercial app on. Well, no, it is not. It's crap.


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## sumimasen (Oct 19, 2010)

O2 no longer selling Palm Pre Plus. What's all that about?


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## editor (Oct 19, 2010)

sumimasen said:


> O2 no longer selling Palm Pre Plus. What's all that about?


The somewhat underwhelming Palm Pre 2 is coming.


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## Kid_Eternity (Apr 7, 2011)

Rumours of an iPhone styled Pre:









> Our editor-in-chief, Dieter Bohn, writing for sibling site PreCentral.net lands an exclusive first look at an HP/Palm webOS slab device, potentially code-named Stingray.
> While we are quite confident that the image is legit, unfortunately we don’t have a lot of confidence in any further information. Is the device coming or is it simply a prototype that has been canned? Our tipster described it as “an EVO with webOS” and suggests it simply has yet to be announced.
> If real and if HP goes ahead and releases it, it will be their first phone without a keyboard, leaving webOS itself as their key differentiators. With more an more emerging about the tablet-specific webOS 3.0 (similar to how iOS 3.2 was iPad specific), it’ll be interesting to see what ultimately launches on the phone.


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## editor (Apr 7, 2011)

I love Palm, but they're fucked. If they'd had the courage of their convictions and launched the Foleo, who knows where they could have been by now...


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## Kid_Eternity (Apr 7, 2011)

Can't see any future for them either despite having been bought by HP. Perhaps they might carve out a small slice of the tablet market?


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## editor (Sep 3, 2013)

Apropos of nothing, I stumbled across a band called The Weather Station who were rather a pleasant listen in a folkie kind of way. Turns out the singer (Tamara Lindeman/Hope) was the woman who appeared in the rather weird original Palm Pre ads. She has a lovely voice.



The ad agency responsible for the promo campaign went bust.


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## Piers Gibbon (Sep 3, 2013)

nice, I like a bit of folk

Palm Pre..ahh that takes me back, thank god I didn't buy one and die hoping for an OS upgrade, or an app to be released

Amazing how Palm chucked away their early technological lead...I was very happy with my Treo, YEARS ahead of the first iphone


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 3, 2013)

Yeah...Palm....they're the reason I have an iPhone. Just couldn't hang on any longer once my wonderful Palm Centro died; there was nothing else that looked good at the time and they fucked about no end with pushing the UK release date of the Palm Pre (which I *REALLY* wanted) back. iPhone 3GS came out and it was that or what 6 months with a shitty old Nokia 'feature' phone (after a few months of torture as my Centro died)...


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 3, 2013)

The whole Pre saga was just a massive facepalm from start to finish. They had a great OS but everything else Palm did was bonkers.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 3, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The whole Pre saga was just a massive facepalm from start to finish. They had a great OS but everything else Palm did was bonkers.



It didn't feel as solid as the Centro build wise but the UX was sublime...


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 3, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> It didn't feel as solid as the Centro build wise but the UX was sublime...


OS was great. Hardware was crap. The launch and marketing were farcical. It was doomed from the very start.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 3, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> OS was great. Hardware was crap. The launch and marketing were farcical. It was doomed from the very start.



I really like the look of it, compared to what else was available at the time, but couldn't bring myself to buy a Pre.


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## editor (Sep 3, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The whole Pre saga was just a massive facepalm from start to finish. They had a great OS but everything else Palm did was bonkers.


The OS interface still stands the test of time too. I occasionally fire up my Pre and the card multitasking system is still miles better than anything Apple or Android have managed (although Apple have had a pretty good stab at ripping
it off recently).


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 3, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> OS was great. Hardware was crap. The launch and marketing were farcical. It was doomed from the very start.



Yup, in hindsight their utter fuck up saved me wasting a lot of time and money in a dead in platform...


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## editor (Sep 3, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> OS was great. Hardware was crap. The launch and marketing were farcical. It was doomed from the very start.


All that faffing about selling off parts of the company and buying them back was like a rerun of the Commodore/Amiga catastrophe.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 3, 2013)

editor said:


> The OS interface still stands the test of time too. I occasionally fire up my Pre and the card multitasking system is still miles better than anything Apple or Android have managed (although Apple have had a pretty good stab at ripping
> it off recently).


iOS 7 pretty much rips the card system off entirely


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## elbows (Sep 3, 2013)

The card multitasking system was so good that it made people gush over WebOS despite the rest of that OS being nothing really special as far as I could tell. I'm not surprised, that stuff matters, and I'm glad its been copied since its a design worthy of living on well past the rest of the debacle.


----------



## editor (Sep 3, 2013)

elbows said:


> The card multitasking system was so good that it made people gush over WebOS despite the rest of that OS being nothing really special as far as I could tell. I'm not surprised, that stuff matters, and I'm glad its been copied since its a design worthy of living on well past the rest of the debacle.


Actually, the OS was pretty good all over. The notifications were years ahead of the iPhone, for example.


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## Piers Gibbon (Sep 4, 2013)

well, selfishly I guess I am glad that ios7 is ripping of the Palm OS...good tech shouldn't just languish unused for years (and doesn't tend to - despite what some people think about Tesla having invented free electricity machines...)


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 6, 2013)

Piers Gibbon said:


> well, selfishly I guess I am glad that ios7 is ripping of the Palm OS...good tech shouldn't just languish unused for years (and doesn't tend to - despite what some people think about Tesla having invented free electricity machines...)



Have to agree, all companies rip off other companies. Google originally ripped off the Blackberry design for its Android phone until they saw the iPhone and then ripped that off. Apple ripped off Xerox, on and on...

I really don't care as long as good ideas remain available on platforms I want to pay for.


----------

