# Wahaca make planning applications for the old Brady's /Railway Tavern pub on Atlantic Road, Brixton



## editor (Sep 29, 2013)

I'm still really upset at the loss of this pub and the council's pathetic handling of the whole business. This should have been a great community resource instead of yet another chain. 

Two planning applications have now gone up outside which I thought may be of interest to some folks:


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## netbob (Sep 29, 2013)

No letters through the doors of neighbours (part of a pattern when they want to force things through)


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## DietCokeGirl (Sep 30, 2013)

Can I object on the base of NOTANOTHERBLOODYCHAIN or does it have to be on specifics of the material changes?


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## innit (Sep 30, 2013)

Nooooooooooooooo


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## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2013)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Can I object on the base of NOTANOTHERBLOODYCHAIN or does it have to be on specifics of the material changes?


the material change is that it's another bloody chain


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## Onket (Sep 30, 2013)

Oh come on, it could have been much worse. Hope the building renovation is sympathetic. I'll definitely go there.


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## leanderman (Sep 30, 2013)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Can I object on the base of NOTANOTHERBLOODYCHAIN or does it have to be on specifics of the material changes?



Which other chains? The high street ones?


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## DietCokeGirl (Sep 30, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Which other chains? The high street ones?


The entire High Street pretty much, creeping in the vill-aaage and surrounds....plus, another bloody restaurant. Does no-one eat at home anymore? I feel like the last person in London with a kettle and a jar of coffee.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2013)

DietCokeGirl said:


> The entire High Street pretty much, creeping in the vill-aaage and surrounds....plus, another bloody restaurant. Does no-one eat at home anymore? I feel like the last person in London with a kettle and a jar of coffee.


but no food, i note.


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## DietCokeGirl (Sep 30, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> but no food, i note.


I HAVE FOOD! Admittedly it's all in tins brought from Stockwell Food and Wine, but I microwave it all by myself. *smug*


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## leanderman (Sep 30, 2013)

DietCokeGirl said:


> The entire High Street pretty much, creeping in the vill-aaage and surrounds....plus, another bloody restaurant. Does no-one eat at home anymore? I feel like the last person in London with a kettle and a jar of coffee.



I was thinking this today. We used to buy food at markets, now we dine there.

People even go there for toast!


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## Yelkcub (Sep 30, 2013)

Mmmm. Wahaca was nice last time I ate there.


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## editor (Sep 30, 2013)

Anyone who ever went to Brady's will know what a fantastic community asset it could have become if it wasn't for fucking useless Lambeth cocking the whole thing up.


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## Onket (Sep 30, 2013)

This is clearly a good use of the building. 

If it remains empty after it has opened and nobody uses it, I will post on this thread saying how right you were,  editor. Although you do sound a lot like those snobs who complained about Nandos opening in Stoke Newington or wherever it was.


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## ChrisSouth (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> Anyone who ever went to Brady's will know what a fantastic community asset it could have become if it wasn't for fucking useless Lambeth cocking the whole thing up.


I went to Brady's quite a lot. But it's still not evident what was so unique about it that it's the only place that could be a community asset.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 1, 2013)

memespring said:


> No letters through the doors of neighbours (part of a pattern when they want to force things through)


 
Is it supposed to be regular procedure to do that? I can't recall getting them more than once or twice anywhere I've lived I don't think.

TBH my guess would be that objecting to this one would be a waste of time anyway given how long it's been since the building was in use as a pub.


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## editor (Oct 1, 2013)

ChrisSouth said:


> I went to Brady's quite a lot. But it's still not evident what was so unique about it that it's the only place that could be a community asset.


I didn't say it was the "only" place that could have been a community asset.

However, given the amount of energy that first went into reopening it as a squatted social centre, and then the determined local campaigning for it to become a community resource, I'd say this was a pub that most definitely should have been saved for the community.


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## Rushy (Oct 1, 2013)

Why was the campaign for a community space / resource quite so wedded to that building, particularly given the huge costs associated with a proper refurbishment? I appreciate that it would have been nice but the community could be just as well if not better served by something more affordably manageable. The building, rather than the service, seems to have been the main driving factor.

When BCA was first campaigning for the Raleigh Hall site I recall suggesting in a public meeting that they would be up and running much faster and in a far more flexible and affordable building if they took the site now occupied by Electric Social. More than 10yrs later on they are still not open.


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## Onket (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> I didn't say it was the "only" place that could have been a community asset.
> 
> However, given the amount of energy that first went into reopening it as a squatted social centre, and then the determined local campaigning for it to become a community resource, I'd say this was a pub that most definitely should have been saved for the community.





editor said:


> this was a pub that most definitely should have been saved for the community.



I wonder who will eat at the new place when it opens, if not the community.


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## ffsear (Oct 1, 2013)

Community centre 







Wahaca


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## Manter (Oct 1, 2013)

DietCokeGirl said:


> The entire High Street pretty much, creeping in the vill-aaage and surrounds....plus, another bloody restaurant. Does no-one eat at home anymore? I feel like the last person in London with a kettle and a jar of coffee.


I like wahaca, and I like eating out. But I love your last sentence


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## Onket (Oct 1, 2013)

Perhaps they will provide a free shuttle bus to get people in from outside the local area?


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## Thimble Queen (Oct 1, 2013)

I don't mind wahaca but I personally don't want one in Brixton.


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## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

If I had the cash I'd start up a kebab place.


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## pissflaps (Oct 1, 2013)

if i had the cash i'd move to Hampstead.

/any chance of a whip round?


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## editor (Oct 1, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Why was the campaign for a community space / resource quite so wedded to that building, particularly given the huge costs associated with a proper refurbishment? I appreciate that it would have been nice but the community could be just as well if not better served by something more affordably manageable. The building, rather than the service, seems to have been the main driving factor.


Perhaps because the building had such a special place in local people's hearts? That can happen you know.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> If I had the cash I'd start up a kebab place.


 
Organic donner meat scraped off the floor of only the finest slaughterhouses, with an Authentic Turkish style kebab sauce? Only a tenner.


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## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> if i had the cash i'd move to Hampstead.
> 
> /any chance of a whip round?


I can contribute with a whipping.


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## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Organic donner meat scraped off the floor of only the finest slaughterhouses, with an Authentic Turkish style kebab sauce? Only a tenner.


Only the finest horse and badger meats in my establishment!


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## pissflaps (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I can contribute with a whipping.


behind the bike sheds. 15 minutes. bring a friend. and possibly some lip balm.


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## Rushy (Oct 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> if i had the cash i'd move to Hampstead.


I'd spread my time between my beachside home in Barbados and chalet in StQuelquechose but I'd maintain a pad in Brixton to keep me grounded.


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## innit (Oct 1, 2013)

A couple of summers ago they actually did bus people in to Brixton Village from East London. 

Also, I expect half of Clapham will eat there, as per.


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## Onket (Oct 1, 2013)

innit said:


> Also, I expect half of Clapham will eat there, as per.



Probably better to leave it boarded up & falling down, then.


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## Rushy (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> Perhaps because the building had such a special place in local people's hearts? That can happen you know.


Of course. It's just a shame the community idea did not stir people as much as the building did. The community use ideal seems to get raised as an option whenever plans are announced for a building. If the the community space idea was not wedded not specific buildings and went looking for a space then it might have a better chance of being realised.


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## el-ahrairah (Oct 1, 2013)

i guess the point was that the community wanted that building, lambeth would rather have left it to rot to sell off cheap sometime than let people use it.  co-operative, see.


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## Rushy (Oct 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i guess the point was that the community wanted that building, lambeth would rather have left it to rot to sell off cheap sometime than let people use it.  co-operative, see.


I don't disagree that Lambeth fucked up by abandoning phase 2 or 3 of the town centre redevelopment for which Bradys was CP'd and then leaving it closed up. But I also think any argument for having any prime space would be much stronger if the "community use" strategies did not live and die with individual buildings.


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## editor (Oct 1, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Of course. It's just a shame the community idea did not stir people as much as the building did.


I disagree. There was an awful lot of effort that went into the community bid and a lot of people were behind the idea. A site containing detailed plans was published and they even got Prince Charles down. Had Lambeth decided to support it rather than change their mind every minute, then I feel the pub could easily have ended up as a useful community resource - or at least reopened open as a pub (read the other thread to see how Lambeth went for the quick buck on that score).


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## Rushy (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> I disagree. There was an awful lot of effort that went into the community bid and a lot of people were behind the idea. A site containing detailed plans was published and they even got Prince Charles down. Had Lambeth decided to support it rather than change their mind every minute, then I feel the pub could easily have ended up as a useful community resource - or at least reopened open as a pub (read the other thread to see how Lambeth went for the quick buck on that score).


I did not suggest that people didn't put lots of effort in. But as far as I am aware all these plans died with that building being sold. I can appreciate that it would have been a great (if expensive to maintain) location but why was it the _only _spot?


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## editor (Oct 1, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I did not suggest that people didn't put lots of effort in. But as far as I am aware all these plans died with that building being sold. I can appreciate that it would have been a great (if expensive to maintain) location but why was it the _only _spot?


I guess they felt - like me - that such a distinctive building with such long associations with music and Brixton life was the _right_ place for it. Right in the heart of Brixton.

Sometimes buildings can have that quality and trying to recreate what made them so special elsewhere is unlikely to work. Happens to football grounds too, for example.


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## Rushy (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> I guess they felt - like me - that such a distinctive building with such long associations with music and Brixton life was the _right_ place for it. Right in the heart of Brixton.
> 
> Sometimes buildings can have that quality and trying to recreate what made them so special elsewhere is unlikely to work. Happens to football grounds too, for example.



I agree that it would have been a good place for it (apart from the expense of maintenance) but it does raise a question mark in my mind about the genuine demand for and will to develop a community facility if its existence is so very dependant on the history of one particular building and a small number of people who occupied it for a short period.

I don't know anything about football, I'm afraid.


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## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

You're swerving the question Ed - why, in your opinion, would the community not rally behind a different building?


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## editor (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> You're swerving the question Ed - why, in your opinion, would the community not rally behind a different building?


No, I'm really not. The building was the entire focus of the campaign. It's where people wanted it to be. It's where all the history, heritage, memories and love was. It's where people imagined its future. 

When the building was squatted they spent weeks and weeks clearing out a filthy sewer. The could have just found somewhere else to squat, but such was the pull of the building, they chose to put in the extra work to make Brady's come alive again.

I'm sorry if you can't see that, but that;s certainly how I felt about the place. Besides where else would it have gone?


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## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> No, I'm really not. The building was the entire focus of the campaign. It's where people wanted it to be. It's where all the history, heritage, memories and love was. It's where people imagined its future.
> 
> When the building was squatted they spent weeks and weeks clearing out a filthy sewer. The could have just found somewhere else to squat, but such was the pull of the building, they chose to put in the extra work to make Brady's come alive again.
> 
> I'm sorry if you can't see that, but that;s certainly how I felt about the place. Besides where else would it have gone?


I can see that 100% and I truly empathise. However, it doesn't really answer the question (and allow me to clarify that I don't expect a final answer from you or any other individual - I'm interested in your opinion as someone who'd been part of it (or so I'm led to believe)). As Rushy has already said, there were other options, that might not have had the same pull and history, but that could nevertheless have served as a community centre.


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## editor (Oct 1, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I agree that it would have been a good place for it (apart from the expense of maintenance) but it does raise a question mark in my mind about the genuine demand for and will to develop a community facility if its existence is so very dependant on the history of one particular building and a small number of people who occupied it for a short period.


Considering all the soul-destroying setbacks and the endless changes of mind from the council, I think they did a very good job of trying to get the building back into public use. Solid plans were researched and put into place, endless meetings with the council went on, local opinions canvassed and a decent amount of publicity was attracted (front cover of local papers, Prince Charles visit, TV etc).

Up until recently it looked like it was going to happen until the council suddenly decided to flog it off to a bunch of dodgy developers. I don't think that proves that there wasn't much community demand. I think it proves that the council were only interested in a quick buck and didn't give much of a fuck about all the work that had gone into trying to make it a useful community resource.

All this is documented in the original 26 page Brady's thread.


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## editor (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I can see that 100% and I truly empathise. However, it doesn't really answer the question (and allow me to clarify that I don't expect a final answer from you or any other individual - I'm interested in your opinion as someone who'd been part of it (or so I'm led to believe)). As Rushy has already said, there were other options, that might not have had the same pull and history, but that could nevertheless have served as a community centre.


What other options were offered? I'm happy to be roved wrong here, but I didn't see the council proposing any other suitable central Brixton alternative properties.


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## el-ahrairah (Oct 1, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I don't disagree that Lambeth fucked up by abandoning phase 2 or 3 of the town centre redevelopment for which Bradys was CP'd and then leaving it closed up. But I also think any argument for having any prime space would be much stronger if the "community use" strategies did not live and die with individual buildings.


 
i see what you mean, but with this one the stategy was inextricably linked to the building and its history.


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## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> What other options were offered? I'm happy to be roved wrong here, but I didn't see the council proposing any other suitable central Brixton alternative properties.


I dunno that any were - I'm assuming that such existed/still exists, and that a community organisation could have shifted its focus onto acquiring a different building after it became clear that Brady's was a no-go. I'm really not trying to have a go at anyone, merely curious, like Rushy, why it seemed to be an all or nothing effort.


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## innit (Oct 1, 2013)

@ onket 

If you think beer in the Albert's expensive, etc.


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## cuppa tee (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> It's where all the history, heritage, memories and love was.


If one was a cynic one could easily imagine this might be a good enough reason for some people to want it gone, or at least
changed beyond recognition.


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## Rushy (Oct 1, 2013)

I can't help feeling that the "community need" argument risks looking a bit flaky if it is tied inextricably to one property. I can see why it means so much to the people who squatted it for that relatively short period of time. It must have been great fun and very exciting all mucking in together with a common goal. But whilst their needs and the community needs clearly overlap, I don't see that broader community needs are quite so site specific. 

The Prince of Wales Trust proposal did not suggest going back to the raw, angry and anarchic days of Bradys. They offered meeting rooms, work space, counselling rooms, free wifi beamed from the clock tower, a community cafe and performance space. Have these needs now gone?


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## editor (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I dunno that any were - I'm assuming that such existed/still exists, and that a community organisation could have shifted its focus onto acquiring a different building after it became clear that Brady's was a no-go.


But that's exactly the problem. It only became clear that Brady's was a no go right at the very, *very* end of a very long and drawn out process where every indication deemed to suggest that the 'co-operative' council were going to back the community scheme.


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## editor (Oct 1, 2013)

Rushy said:


> The Prince of Wales Trust proposal did not suggest going back to the raw, angry and anarchic days of Bradys.


FYI: nobody ever suggested that.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2013)

Rushy said:


> The Prince of Wales Trust proposal did not suggest going back to the raw, angry and anarchic days of Bradys.


i think you mean 'the good old days'.


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## Rushy (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> FYI: nobody ever suggested that.


FYI: my post did not say that they did.


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## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> But that's exactly the problem. It only became clear that Brady's was a no go right at the very, *very* end of a very long and drawn out process where every indication deemed to suggest that the 'co-operative' council were going to back the community scheme.


I can see how that might have deflated a lot of people. But as Rushy points out above maybe the aims of the group that tried to salvage Brady's didn't really overlap all that strongly with broader community needs? Seems to me that the goal of bringing the building back as a venue was as important as the more basic needs it would have/could have met (not that the former is necessarily opposed to the latter of course), and as such I think it's valid to ask questions such as have come about in this thread.


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## editor (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I can see how that might have deflated a lot of people. But as Rushy points out above maybe the aims of the group that tried to salvage Brady's didn't really overlap all that strongly with broader community needs? Seems to me that the goal of bringing the building back as a venue was as important as the more basic needs it would have/could have met (not that the former is necessarily opposed to the latter of course), and as such I think it's valid to ask questions such as have come about in this thread.


I am of the opinion that is could have been a real community asset to Brixton and would have been very widely used. You may of course disagree, but neither of us will ever know for sure thanks to the council hastily flogging it off.

But did central Brixton need a community resource more than it needed another chain restaurant? _Absolutely_, in my book. You may of course disagree with that too.


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## Onket (Oct 1, 2013)

innit said:


> @ onket
> 
> If you think beer in the Albert's expensive, etc.





I have never said the beer is expensive in the Albert, innit. It was claimed (on a flyer for a gig/night) that the Albert had a 'cheap bar'. It doesn't have a cheap bar, it has a normal priced bar. It was misadvertising and I quite rightly pointed it out. I never said it was expensive.


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## Rushy (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> I am of the opinion that is could have been a real community asset to Brixton and would have been very widely used. You may of course disagree, but neither of us will ever know for sure thanks to the council hastily flogging it off.
> 
> But did central Brixton need a community resource more than it needed another chain restaurant? _Absolutely_, in my book. You may of course disagree with that too.


I don't think TruXta disagreed with your first point.

The thing about chain restaurants is that they develop a concept and then look for a site.


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## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> I am of the opinion that is could have been a real community asset to Brixton and would have been very widely used. You may of course disagree, but neither of us will ever know for sure thanks to the council hastily flogging it off.
> 
> But did central Brixton need a community resource more than it needed another chain restaurant? _Absolutely_, in my book. You may of course disagree with that too.


I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. I'm sure Brady's would've made a lovely community venue and have been widely used. And I'm not sure how you came to think I'm saying I'm happy for Wahaca or similar to get the place. The point I've made (Rushy really) was: since Brady's became a no-go, what stopped people from setting their sights on another place? Was there something about Brady's as a space that made it uniquely placed to meet the community needs? What other places could have been alternatives? Were these questions asked internally by the campaigners?


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## editor (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> The point I've made (Rushy really) was: since Brady's became a no-go, what stopped people from setting their sights on another place? Was there something about Brady's as a space that made it uniquely placed to meet the community needs? What other places could have been alternatives? Were these questions asked internally by the campaigners?


I've done my best to answer that, but perhaps el-ahrairah's earlier answer sums it up best when he explains that the campaigner's strategy was "inextricably linked to the building and its history."

There were no viable alternatives offered or suggested, neither would there seem to be much need to consider them when the council and other interested parties all seemed to be agreeing that Brady's would be the venue for the project.


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## Onket (Oct 1, 2013)

innit said:


> @ onket
> 
> If you think beer in the Albert's expensive, etc.



Turns out I've already told you.



Onket said:


> No, I simply stated that describing it as having a cheap bar, was incorrect. It is a pub with pub prices, I never said it was expensive.
> 
> Since then, of course, they have lowered the price of Carling, so one of the drinks they sell is 'cheap', the others are still 'pub priced'.



Please try to remember it this time.


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## innit (Oct 1, 2013)

Amaze


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

Onket said:


> I wonder who will eat at the new place when it opens, if not the community.



People who enjoy _faux_-Mexican cuisine, undoubtedly, but they won't necessarily be from the local community.

I bet they won't serve lasagna and chips, either.


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## Onket (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> People who enjoy _faux_-Mexican cuisine, undoubtedly, but they won't necessarily be from the local community.
> 
> I bet they won't serve lasagna and chips, either.



I suspect most of them will be local. Not  serving lasagne is a given though, and almost certainly not worth mentioning. I suspect they won't serve chicken korma either.


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## leanderman (Oct 1, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> I don't mind wahaca but I personally don't want one in Brixton.



Nimbyism!


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. I'm sure Brady's would've made a lovely community venue and have been widely used. And I'm not sure how you came to think I'm saying I'm happy for Wahaca or similar to get the place. The point I've made (Rushy really) was: since Brady's became a no-go, what stopped people from setting their sights on another place? Was there something about Brady's as a space that made it uniquely placed to meet the community needs? What other places could have been alternatives? Were these questions asked internally by the campaigners?



I think you're under-estimating the degree to which the council misled locals about this.  They pretty much gave the local community a nod and a wink that Brady's would be a community centre, then rowed back from that, and offered no alternatives (offering an alternative would have meant admitting that they'd misled the local community about Bready's, after all).


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## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think you're under-estimating the degree to which the council misled locals about this.  They pretty much gave the local community a nod and a wink that Brady's would be a community centre, then rowed back from that, and offered no alternatives (offering an alternative would have meant admitting that they'd misled the local community about Bready's, after all).


That's quite possible. Do you know what happened to ABCBrixton?


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> That's quite possible. Do you know what happened to ABCBrixton?



The community org?  Still around, but not doing much, as far as I know (which isn't surprising given that the 3rd sector appears intent on "capturing" community representation in Brixton).


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## Thimble Queen (Oct 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Nimbyism!


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## Santino (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> People who enjoy _faux_-Mexican cuisine, undoubtedly, but they won't necessarily be from the local community.


Not authentic for you, is it? 

What are you, a hipster?


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## Santino (Oct 1, 2013)

Would you prefer a Peruvian food truck?


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## leanderman (Oct 1, 2013)

I'm dubious about the terms 'community' and 'community asset', especially in the context of pubs.

Pubs do not always work for children, some women, old people, the disabled, those who don't drink for religious reasons etc.

Then there is the notion of fathers drinking themselves into ill health, squandering the family's money and dodging household duties.

On the other hand, how sad, in some ways, the transformation of the Effra Social is.

Where now small groups of people drink, strangers to each other, there was once a working men's club/Tory club, which would have been a real community place, in which patrons knew each other.

Of course, that belonged to an earlier and more homogeneous London


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

Santino said:


> Not authentic for you, is it?



It's not "authentic" for anyone, regardless of how Wahaca sell themselves.



> What are you, a hipster?



Nope.


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## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not "authentic" for anyone, regardless of how Wahaca sell themselves.


I can't see that they claim any kind of authenticity tbh. Wasn't it some Masterchef winner who set it up?


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## ska invita (Oct 1, 2013)

DietCokeGirl said:


> The entire High Street pretty much, creeping in the vill-aaage and surrounds....plus, another bloody restaurant. Does no-one eat at home anymore? I feel like the last person in London with a kettle and a jar of coffee.


according to this the average Londoner eats out 4 times a week - which bearing in mind those of us who eat out a lot less (once a  week personally), that means some people are eating out 5,6,7 days a week


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## pissflaps (Oct 1, 2013)

it's a serviceable enough restaurant chain as far as restaurant chains go. at least it's not a fucking pizza express. awful places.


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## leanderman (Oct 1, 2013)

ska invita said:


> according to this the average Londoner eats out 4 times a week - which bearing in mind those of us who eat out a lot less (once a  week personally), that means some people are eating out 5,6,7 days a week



probably includes sandwiches


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I'm dubious about the terms 'community' and 'community asset', especially in the context of pubs.
> 
> Pubs do not always work for children, some women, old people, the disabled, those who don't drink for religious reasons etc.
> 
> ...



"More homogeneous" is relative, though, given that for at least the last 100 years, the area has been home to social strata from unskilled blue collar working class, to upper middle class.  I'd say that what's changed, especially so in the last 2 decades (but previously too, back in the days when the shebeens were more prominent) is how the _locale_ has become a venue for visiting pleasure-seekers to a far greater extent, and that this has had the usual effect on some businesses of causing them to "follow the easy money".


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## leanderman (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> "More homogeneous" is relative, though, given that for at least the last 100 years, the area has been home to social strata from unskilled blue collar working class, to upper middle class.  I'd say that what's changed, especially so in the last 2 decades (but previously too, back in the days when the shebeens were more prominent) is how the _locale_ has become a venue for visiting pleasure-seekers to a far greater extent, and that this has had the usual effect on some businesses of causing them to "follow the easy money".



I suspect it was more homogeneous in: sharing same mother tongue, going in large numbers to a smaller number of churches, supporting local football teams and in other ways no doubt.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I can't see that they claim any kind of authenticity tbh. Wasn't it some Masterchef winner who set it up?



They sell themselves as "Mexican market eating".  Seems plain to me they're making a claim to authenticity in that statement.


----------



## mxh (Oct 1, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Organic donner meat scraped off the floor of only the finest slaughterhouses, with an Authentic Turkish style kebab sauce? Only a tenner.


 
tenner ? Bit steep.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> They sell themselves as "Mexican market eating".  Seems plain to me they're making a claim to authenticity in that statement.


Really?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Really?



Yes, really.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I can't see that they claim any kind of authenticity tbh. Wasn't it some Masterchef winner who set it up?


Yes, Thomasina Miers who won Masterchef in 2005, setting up Wahaca in Covent Garden the following year. Now 10 restaurants plus 2 street food trucks.


----------



## mxh (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Really?


 
Market food, not Street food.


----------



## Onket (Oct 1, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, Thomasina Miers who won Masterchef in 2005, setting up Wahaca in Covent Garden the following year. Now 10 restaurants plus 2 street food trucks.



A success story.

Frowned upon by nimbys in Brixton.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 1, 2013)

Onket said:


> A success story.
> 
> Frowned upon by nimbys in Brixton.



Yes. But she did go to the elite St Paul's Girls' School (£6,000 a term for day pupils) and is married to a merchant banker.

Oh, and she has a silly name.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, really.


"Inspired by" seems to be the tag-line in my reading. It no more claims authenticity than does a pizza place on Brixton Hill.


----------



## Onket (Oct 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Yes. But she did go to the elite St Paul's Girls' School (£6,000 a term for day pupils) and is married to a merchant banker.
> 
> Oh, and she has a silly name.



Burn the witch.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2013)

"Local pub to turn into chain restaurant" is a positive news story now is it?

Perhaps it should have been turned into flats.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> "Inspired by" seems to be the tag-line in my reading.



Then possibly you're only semi-literate. 
Nowhere does it say "Mexican-style" or "Anglo-Mexi fusion", just "Mexican Market Eating". 



> It no more claims authenticity than does a pizza place on Brixton Hill.



Does the pizza place on Brixton Hill advertise itself as "Italian Pizzeria eating"?  Not that I recall.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Yes. But she did go to the elite St Paul's Girls' School (£6,000 a term for day pupils) and is married to *a merchant banker.*



The rhyming slang, or of the profession (not that the two are mutually exclusive, you understand!)?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Then possibly you're only semi-literate.
> Nowhere does it say "Mexican-style" or "Anglo-Mexi fusion", just "Mexican Market Eating".
> 
> Does the pizza place on Brixton Hill advertise itself as "Italian Pizzeria eating"?  Not that I recall.


"Looking to the markets of Mexico for inspiration." It's Mexican as much as your bog standard Italian is "Italian". Nor does it use the word "authentic" anywhere I can see, which IME is a dead give-away.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The rhyming slang, or of the profession (not that the two are mutually exclusive, you understand!)?



From the Telegraph announcements (10-08-2009): The engagement is announced between Mark, son of Mr and Mrs Anthony Williams, of Antigua, and Thomasina, daughter of Mr and Mrs Probyn Miers, of Guiting Power, Gloucestershire.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> "Looking to the markets of Mexico for inspiration." It's Mexican as much as your bog standard Italian is "Italian". Nor does it use the word "authentic" anywhere I can see, which IME is a dead give-away.



Roland Barthes has just flicked a bogie at you for being so soapy as to not realise that advertising is sometimes a bit more subtle than stamping the word "authentic" on something in big red letters.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> From the Telegraph announcements (10-08-2009): The engagement is announced between Mark, son of Mr and Mrs Anthony Williams, of Antigua, and Thomasina, daughter of Mr and Mrs Probyn Miers, of Guiting Power, Gloucestershire.



Daddy had a stupid Christian name, so daughter had to be "blessed" with one too.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Roland Barthes has just flicked a bogie at you for being so soapy as to not realise that advertising is sometimes a bit more subtle than stamping the word "authentic" on something in big red letters.


You think most people who eat at Wahaca think it's authentic Mexican food - whatever that is? I don't.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Yes. But she did go to the elite St Paul's Girls' School (£6,000 a term for day pupils) and is married to a merchant banker.



....... she also co-wrote a cookery book called "soup kitchen "


----------



## leanderman (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Daddy had a stupid Christian name, so daughter had to be "blessed" with one too.



and what the hell, where the hell is Guiting Power?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> and what the hell, where the hell is Guiting Power?


Nazi stronghold.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> You think most people who eat at Wahaca think it's authentic Mexican food - whatever that is? I don't.



You're moving the goalposts again. It's not about the perceptions of customers, it's about how the company presents/advertises itself in order to "prime" those perceptions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> and what the hell, where the hell is Guiting Power?



Somewhere to be when the power cuts come again?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> ....... she also co-wrote a cookery book called "soup kitchen "



Oh, how I expect she and her editor laughed when they came up with that title!


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 1, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I can't help feeling that the "community need" argument risks looking a bit flaky if it is tied inextricably to one property.


 Why should it not be tied to one property?

Bradys was/is a great building - lots of history, a central location, 'iconic' if you like - why should the community not want it? A building where lots of local people spent lots of time and had lots of memories - that's the sort of building you want.

If Argos closed down, or the Electric Social, who the fuck would want those buildings as community centres? Why would we want them? They're rubbish normal buildings. Part of this is opportunism, and rightly so: if there's a chance to save a decent building for community use, let's fucking take it (rather than going down some managerial route, which ends up giving you a space no-one wants to use.)

The community recently saved the Ivy House pub in Peckham/Nunhead. They could have got together and opened a brand new boozer in a new commercial unit somewhere locally, but that wasn't the point. The point was _saving the building itself_, for _the sake of itself_.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Nazi stronghold.



By the Windrush river apparently - and aptly ... sort of.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're moving the goalposts again. It's not about the perceptions of customers, it's about how the company presents/advertises itself in order to "prime" those perceptions.


Takes two to tango, especially if you're talking about semiotics.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Why should it not be tied to one property?
> 
> Bradys was/is a great building - lots of history, a central location, 'iconic' if you like - why should the community not want it? A building where lots of local people spent lots of time and had lots of memories - that's the sort of building you want.
> 
> If Argos closed down, or the Electric Social, who the fuck would want those buildings as community centres? Why would we want them? They're rubbish normal buildings. Part of this is opportunism, and rightly so: if there's a chance to save a decent building for community use, let's fucking take it (rather than going down some managerial route, which ends up giving you a space no-one wants to use.)


I just don't see why it had to be an either or _from the outset_ if that was indeed the idea behind it all. Of course I can agree that Brady's would make an especially suitable location for a CC. The Electric Social would do just fine too IMO.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Takes two to tango, especially if you're talking about semiotics.



Ah, the old blame-shifting - "it's all your fault, VP. You talked about semiotics, therefore I have a licence to shift the subject to customer perception, and how I personally feel on that subject!"

Muppet!


----------



## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ah, the old blame-shifting - "it's all your fault, VP. You talked about semiotics, therefore I have a licence to shift the subject to customer perception, and how I personally feel on the subject!
> 
> Muppet!


And your opinion is of course entirely objective. Cuz of semiotics and Barthes. Right.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I just don't see why it had to be an either or _from the outset_ if that was indeed the idea behind it all. Of course I can agree that Brady's would make an especially suitable location for a CC. The Electric Social would do just fine too IMO.


You're missing the point (I think.) The starting point is to save the building for the community, rather than open a community centre. The latter is a tool to get the former.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> You're missing the point (I think.) The starting point is to save the building for the community, rather than open a community centre.



Save it for the community to do what with? Continue as a pub (I'd love it if that happened)? Something else? A combination of uses? No point having a communal building if it's not used for meeting some communal need is there?

You might be right tho, that I'm missing something.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Save it for the community to do what with? Continue as a pub (I'd love it if that happened)? Something else? A combination of uses? No point having a communal building if it's not used for meeting some communal need is there?
> 
> You might be right tho, that I'm missing something.


Does the purpose matter, as long as it's space people in the community can use? 

If it's turned into flats it's lost forever. If it's turned into a Wahaca, you're only serving a narrow demographic.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 1, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Does the purpose matter, as long as it's space people in the community can use?
> 
> If it's turned into flats it's lost forever. If it's turned into a Wahaca, you're only serving a narrow demographic.


 I think somehow people believe I'm in favour of Wahaca taking over the space. Which I've not said and isn't true.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I think somehow people believe I'm in favour of Wahaca taking over the space. Which I've not said and isn't true.


Fair enough 

Clearly Wahaca is a better result than having Bradys taken over by an estate agent. Or remaining empty for another 15 years.

It's just a terrible shame we lost a decent opportunity for something unique. I want Brixton to have imaginative and unique buildings for the community to use. Peckham had a fucking great, weird/amazing library built. But in Brixton we're just gonna spend £30m on new council offices instead.


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2013)

I'm with Truxta- or at least what I think he's trying to say. My thought process/sales pitch to the council  would be we the community need space to do x which is important because y. And we have an iconic, historically significant building here, that would be fantastic, be saved by this project and add value in these ways.

Instead, it sounds a bit like the cart came before the horse- "this is an iconic, historically significant building so give it to the community and we'll invent some 'community stuff' to go in it. We can't have the building? Stuff it then"

If there is a genuine need for a community space (and I happen to think there is)that need still exists even if Brady's isn't an option. Which doesn't mean flats/pricy restaurants are desirable for that site, or that Lambeth hasn't behaved badly- simply that the community space dream should live on, and be looking for some other space in central Brixton. (Even while regretting that its not Brady's)


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2013)

And on Wahaca/Thomasina Myers- sneering at someone because her parents gave her a silly name is a bit reductive- if she had renamed herself Jane someone would dig out the fact she wasn't really called that and sneer at her for hiding her origins. It's divisive and unpleasant to spend so much time searching for evidence of people's origins and using it to tar and feather them- its part of the divide and rule that this government are pushing so hard, and I'm afraid it's working. 

Sorry to be so blunt in criticising some people on here I like, but I think it's a real shame if a serious point (pertinently here how much investment to get businesses off the ground in this country is tied up in old school/family networks, for example) becomes 'she went to a posh school and has a silly name ner ner ne ner ner'. It makes valid concerns about the direction the country is taking into adolescent pointing and jeering- and therefore easy to ignore and dismiss


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2013)

Odd how chains which take over these spots are almost universally owned and run by those with inherited privilege though isn't it. Almost like there was some basic economic imbalance in society.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> And on Wahaca/Thomasina Myers- sneering at someone because her parents gave her a silly name is a bit reductive- if she had renamed herself Jane someone would dig out the fact she wasn't really called that and sneer at her for hiding her origins. It's divisive and unpleasant to spend so much time searching for evidence of people's origins and using it to tar and feather them- its part of the divide and rule that this government are pushing so hard, and I'm afraid it's working.
> 
> Sorry to be so blunt in criticising some people on here I like, but I think it's a real shame if a serious point (pertinently here how much investment to get businesses off the ground in this country is tied up in old school/family networks, for example) becomes 'she went to a posh school and has a silly name ner ner ne ner ner'. It makes valid concerns about the direction the country is taking into adolescent pointing and jeering- and therefore easy to ignore and dismiss



It's not about the name.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> I'm with Truxta- or at least what I think he's trying to say. My thought process/sales pitch to the council  would be we the community need space to do x which is important because y. And we have an iconic, historically significant building here, that would be fantastic, be saved by this project and add value in these ways.
> 
> Instead, it sounds a bit like the cart came before the horse- "this is an iconic, historically significant building so give it to the community and we'll invent some 'community stuff' to go in it. We can't have the building? Stuff it then"
> 
> If there is a genuine need for a community space (and I happen to think there is)that need still exists even if Brady's isn't an option. Which doesn't mean flats/pricy restaurants are desirable for that site, or that Lambeth hasn't behaved badly- simply that the community space dream should live on, and be looking for some other space in central Brixton. (Even while regretting that its not Brady's)



There will always be a need for community space - we don't need to invent that need, or prove it. People will always need to get together. Opportunities (like Bradys) can be the catalyst to generate new uses and get more people involved.


----------



## colacubes (Oct 1, 2013)

.


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2013)

And while I'm at it, on the Soup Kitchen book...it was published in 2005 when soup kitchens had all but died out. It was a harmless phrase with nothing to most people but historical interest... There were a few 'soup kitchens'- mostly food trucks, referred to as soup-runs usually- ministering to the homeless, but they were seriously considering banning them as not helping address the problems of that group (it was briefly a government policy proposal in 2007, and the proposal was supported by many of the major charities. Shelter still thought they had a place but wrote a whole policy paper on what they were not and should not be. Which included common, regular, part of the established social benefit framework ...)

Now that our country is going down the toilet, soup kitchens (and food bank, something I had only heard of in socially brutal America) have become both common and loaded terms. It's a bit harsh to blame her for being one of the editors of a book with that title, published 8 years ago before we had any idea soup kitchens would become part of our reality again.


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Odd how chains which take over these spots are almost universally owned and run by those with inherited privilege though isn't it. Almost like there was some basic economic imbalance in society.


Which is *precisely* my point- make that point, don't sneer at her name, or the village her parents live in. 

E2a- tbf it wasn't you doing the sneering up thread


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 1, 2013)

who said what about her name, where was that?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> Which is *precisely* my point- make that point, don't sneer at her name, or the village her parents live in.
> 
> E2a- tbf it wasn't you doing the sneering up thread


Her name and parents' location (and various other factors) are cultural signifiers, even if they're not directly connected. It's not exactly random.

eta: I don't see any sneering at her parents' location (maybe I missed that) but being privately educated is a bit of a point as well.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> And while I'm at it, on the Soup Kitchen book...it was published in 2005 when soup kitchens had all but died out. It was a harmless phrase with nothing to most people but historical interest... There were a few 'soup kitchens'- mostly food trucks, referred to as soup-runs usually- ministering to the homeless, but they were seriously considering banning them as not helping address the problems of that group (it was briefly a government policy proposal in 2007, and the proposal was supported by many of the major charities. Shelter still thought they had a place but wrote a whole policy paper on what they were not and should not be. Which included common, regular, part of the established social benefit framework ...)
> 
> Now that our country is going down the toilet, soup kitchens (and food bank, something I had only heard of in socially brutal America) have become both common and loaded terms. It's a bit harsh to blame her for being one of the editors of a book with that title, published 8 years ago before we had any idea soup kitchens would become part of our reality again.



I can't help keep noticing that public life is increasingly being dominated by people from the top schools.

As well as the professions this is seen in music, food, the England cricket team even.

And I'm pretty sure that research by the Sutton Trust backs up my suspicions.


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> There will always be a need for community space - we don't need to invent that need, or prove it. People will always need to get together. Opportunities (like Bradys) can be the catalyst to generate new uses and get more people involved.


You do need to 'prove it' to get investment. And the council handing a building over is investment. 

Look, I'm not saying they acted well (they never do) or that the space isn't needed as a community space, just that 'there will always be a need' isn't an argument with any force- all you need is someone to go 'no there isn't' and you are at an impasse.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> Which is *precisely* my point- make that point, don't sneer at her name, or the village her parents live in.
> 
> E2a- tbf it wasn't you doing the sneering up thread



I really don't think I was sneering.


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I can't help keep noticing that public life is increasingly being dominated by people from the top schools.
> 
> As well as the professions this is seen in music, food, the England cricket team even.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure that research by the Sutton Trust backs up my suspicions.


I don't dispute any of that. As I have said again and again, make that point, don't point at an individual and say 'and her dad had a stupid name too'


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I really don't think I was sneering.


I can't see the post numbers in the new version of the forum, but there was an exchange between you and VP that started at 9.56, which picked at her name, her dad's name and the village she came from. I think it had a very sneering tone. And it takes away from the real point, which is the one Fridgemagnet and then you made much more constructively and clearly- that there is a take over of public life by a cartel who went to school and university together and have access to investment etc which is allowing them to take over public life. That's the real issue


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> You do need to 'prove it' to get investment. And the council handing a building over is investment.
> 
> Look, I'm not saying they acted well (they never do) or that the space isn't needed as a community space, just that 'there will always be a need' isn't an argument with any force- all you need is someone to go 'no there isn't' and you are at an impasse.


Yeah I think you're mostly right about having to play the game to get investment. But the council wouldn't be 'handing the building over' - it would be (in an ideal world) keeping the building in public ownership and for public use, indefinitely, creating social, cultural and communal benefits. Truly "cooperative"! (Which is why it won't happen.)


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Her name and parents' location (and various other factors) are cultural signifiers, even if they're not directly connected. It's not exactly random.
> 
> eta: I don't see any sneering at her parents' location (maybe I missed that) but being privately educated is a bit of a point as well.


The issue imo is when a genuine concern- as evidenced by the Sutton trust report Leanderman referenced- is reduced to lazy stereotypes. The country and villages are not the preserve of the rich, names (and even silly posh sounding names) don't always mean you are either silly or posh, even public school educations hide a myriad of financial situations and experiences (though less so than in the past)- if we reduce everything to us v them, we are shoring up the ridiculous 'class' differences that are doing such damage to the country. 

I know I am now going to get beaten up for mentioning class without the correct references to modern socialist thinking, and tbh I sort of wish I hadn't started this (I am sure she can fight her own battles) but I wish we could all address people as people rather than as archetypes*

*ok, naive I know and it may be too late for the uk to move beyond our strange class based system, but a girl can dream


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not "authentic" for anyone, regardless of how Wahaca sell themselves.


God help those eating inauthentic food. Scum. Scum, pure and simple.


----------



## colacubes (Oct 1, 2013)

.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> I can't see the post numbers in the new version of the forum, but there was an exchange between you and VP that started at 9.56, which picked at her name, her dad's name and the village she came from. I think it had a very sneering tone. And it takes away from the real point, which is the one Fridgemagnet and then you made much more constructively and clearly- that there is a take over of public life by a cartel who went to school and university together and have access to investment etc which is allowing them to take over public life. That's the real issue



I was not sneering.


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I was not sneering.


Ok... Really don't want to fight, that's how it read to me. I take it back


----------



## leanderman (Oct 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> Ok... Really don't want to fight, that's how it read to me. I take it back



You don't have to take anything back. I have been accused of much worse here!

I think Thomasina is a silly name. It was an aside, no more.

And the village name (Guiting Power) struck me as very unusual.

I didn't mean them to obscure my main point about privilege.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oh, how I expect she and her editor laughed when they came up with that title!


It was a book raising money for charity, at a time when soup kitchens were a lot more scarce than they have become in recent years.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2013)

[


Rushy said:


> I did not suggest that people didn't put lots of effort in. But as far as I am aware all these plans died with that building being sold. I can appreciate that it would have been a great (if expensive to maintain) location but why was it the _only _spot?



It was designated for some kind of community use in the Brixton Masterplan that was agreed by Council Cabinet.

It is pointless going to consultation meetings to help the Council make a Masterplan for Brixton and then seeing the Council ditch them.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I dunno that any were - I'm assuming that such existed/still exists, and that a community organisation could have shifted its focus onto acquiring a different building after it became clear that Brady's was a no-go. I'm really not trying to have a go at anyone, merely curious, like Rushy, why it seemed to be an all or nothing effort.



It was not about one particular community organisation pushing this use of Bradys.

The original Brixton Masterplan ( agreed by Cabinet but not statutory planning guidelines) says that officers should:




> Brady’s community facility
> Define a delivery methodology for Brady’s building to
> include community/cultural/leisure use and remodelled
> rear addition to provide active frontage and overlook to
> new public space.



After all the consultation on the Brixton Masterplan it was flogged off.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> And while I'm at it, on the Soup Kitchen book...it was published in 2005 when soup kitchens had all but died out. It was a harmless phrase with nothing to most people but historical interest... There were a few 'soup kitchens'- mostly food trucks, referred to as soup-runs usually- ministering to the homeless, but they were seriously considering banning them as not helping address the problems of that group (it was briefly a government policy proposal in 2007, and the proposal was supported by many of the major charities. Shelter still thought they had a place but wrote a whole policy paper on what they were not and should not be. Which included common, regular, part of the established social benefit framework ...)
> 
> Now that our country is going down the toilet, soup kitchens (and food bank, something I had only heard of in socially brutal America) have become both common and loaded terms. It's a bit harsh to blame her for being one of the editors of a book with that title, published 8 years ago before we had any idea soup kitchens would become part of our reality again.



IIRC Terrance Conran's first restaurant was called Soup Kitchen in the 60s. It sold fresh made soup and bread.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 2, 2013)

leanderman said:


> From the Telegraph announcements (10-08-2009): The engagement is announced between Mark, son of Mr and Mrs Anthony Williams, of Antigua, and Thomasina, daughter of Mr and Mrs Probyn Miers, of Guiting Power, Gloucestershire.



Top be honest you could delve into the history of some local HC members and find similar backgrounds.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Oct 2, 2013)

Without detracting from the very  valid  'co-operative bollocks Lambeth' argument, I do find the whole name and background sneering thing a bit wearing. On paper I grew up in one of Melbourne's wealthiest suburbs and my siblings all have ridiculously posh names, but the reality was the absolute opposite of a life of wealth and luxury. You can't always judge a book by its cover.


----------



## pissflaps (Oct 2, 2013)

welcome to U75, posh until proven otherwise.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> They sell themselves as "Mexican market eating".  Seems plain to me they're making a claim to authenticity in that statement.



if an African chef cooks my 'traditional British Roast Dinner' does that not make it traditional?

having walked past a few Wahacas, i'm not sure they are claiming to be that authentic.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 2, 2013)

Dan U said:


> if an African chef cooks my 'traditional British Roast Dinner' does that not make it traditional?
> 
> having walked past a few Wahacas, i'm not sure they are claiming to be that authentic.



I haven't been to Central America since summer '92 but back then authentic would have involved at least one period of 24hrs being glued to the throne and shitting in litres.


*Sorry if it's a bit early for that*


----------



## pissflaps (Oct 2, 2013)

i got that after a visit to chiquitos in leicester square as all fresh-off-the-boaters do. well authentic then.


----------



## Onket (Oct 2, 2013)

"If we can't have it no-one can" says U75.


----------



## pissflaps (Oct 2, 2013)

Onket said:


> "If we don't want it no-one can" says U75.



fixed, a bit.


----------



## Onket (Oct 2, 2013)

This thread appears to be about a proposed 'community space' a couple of hundred yards away-

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...s-community-space-and-feel-good-vibes.315609/


----------



## TruXta (Oct 2, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> It was not about one particular community organisation pushing this use of Bradys.
> 
> The original Brixton Masterplan ( agreed by Cabinet but not statutory planning guidelines) says that officers should:
> 
> ...


Thanks.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 2, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Top be honest you could delve into the history of some local HC members and find similar backgrounds.



It was not delving, it was 10 seconds on Wikipedia

Next time, the name of someone I had never heard of comes up I will curb my curiosity, since it seems to have annoyed so many people!


----------



## Rushy (Oct 2, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I haven't been to Central America since summer '92 but back then authentic would have involved at least one period of 24hrs being glued to the throne and shitting in litres.
> 
> 
> *Sorry if it's a bit early for that*


Bless you Dan U for what I have just been informed was my 1,000th like. You win a ... warm fuzzy feeling?

Shame my comment was about poo


----------



## leanderman (Oct 2, 2013)

shakespearegirl said:


> Without detracting from the very  valid  'co-operative bollocks Lambeth' argument, I do find the whole name and background sneering thing a bit wearing. On paper I grew up in one of Melbourne's wealthiest suburbs and my siblings all have ridiculously posh names, but the reality was the absolute opposite of a life of wealth and luxury. You can't always judge a book by its cover.



So, because Thomasina has a supposedly posh name it does not mean she is posh? 

Even though she patently is? Some books you can judge by the cover.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 2, 2013)

leanderman said:


> It was not delving, it was 10 seconds on Wikipedia
> 
> Next time, the name of someone I had never heard of comes up I will curb my curiosity, since it seems to have annoyed so many people!


Easy fella. That wasn't my point.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 2, 2013)

leanderman said:


> So, because Thomasina has a supposedly posh name it does not mean she is posh?
> 
> Even though she patently is? Some books you can judge by the cover.


You sound a bit like Stella English (oops) Katy Hopkins there - and she makes me want to throw things at the telly.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 2, 2013)

Now I have to look up Stella English


----------



## Rushy (Oct 2, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Now I have to look up Stella English


Sorry - I meant Katy Hopkins.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/katie-hopkins-video-watch-holly-2028125


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

TruXta said:


> And your opinion is of course entirely objective. Cuz of semiotics and Barthes. Right.



Have I claimed that my opinion is objective?

Nah, it's just you wriggling again, isn't it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> You're missing the point (I think.) The starting point is to save the building for the community, rather than open a community centre. The latter is a tool to get the former.



The most broadly beneficial tool, at that.  After all, whatever Lambeth make/made off the back of selling or leasing the building to Wahaca, will be a drop in an ocean of piss, with regard to helping bridge any funding gap, whereas a community focal point - that's somewhere that people who're affected by the funding cuts etc can get together, could even organise!

And there, as they say, is the rub: The co-operative council doesn't particularly approve of people organising, especially outside party lines.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> I'm with Truxta- or at least what I think he's trying to say. My thought process/sales pitch to the council  would be we the community need space to do x which is important because y. And we have an iconic, historically significant building here, that would be fantastic, be saved by this project and add value in these ways.
> 
> Instead, it sounds a bit like the cart came before the horse- "this is an iconic, historically significant building so give it to the community and we'll invent some 'community stuff' to go in it. We can't have the building? Stuff it then"



That's hardly what happened.  There have been a fair few attempts to save other socially important buildings for social use, here and elsewhere.  It's a recognised method of using a community-owned asset.  It's not the case that the cart was put before the horse.  Many of the proposed uses would have allowed community assets based elsewhere to find a more permanent home.
In this case, though, it's debatable whether Lambeth (councillors and/or officers) ever had any intention of allowing community use of Brady's, but coming out and saying "no, we're only interested in what we can make from the building" would have been too bald even for Lambeth, so they strung the local community along.

The only value that the council are interesting in, has nothing to do with adding, just with realising.



> If there is a genuine need for a community space (and I happen to think there is)that need still exists even if Brady's isn't an option. Which doesn't mean flats/pricy restaurants are desirable for that site, or that Lambeth hasn't behaved badly- simply that the community space dream should live on, and be looking for some other space in central Brixton. (Even while regretting that its not Brady's)



I'm not sure people get why Brady's was an almost ideal building for the intended community usages - part of it was because the building was big enough that community assets that are spread out all over Brixton currently, could have been brought together "under one roof", at a saving to the council, and to those community assets - and because the building is central enough and memorable enough that people would know where to go, and be able to get there easily.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> And on Wahaca/Thomasina Myers- sneering at someone because her parents gave her a silly name is a bit reductive- if she had renamed herself Jane someone would dig out the fact she wasn't really called that and sneer at her for hiding her origins. It's divisive and unpleasant to spend so much time searching for evidence of people's origins and using it to tar and feather them- its part of the divide and rule that this government are pushing so hard, and I'm afraid it's working.
> 
> Sorry to be so blunt in criticising some people on here I like, but I think it's a real shame if a serious point (pertinently here how much investment to get businesses off the ground in this country is tied up in old school/family networks, for example) becomes 'she went to a posh school and has a silly name ner ner ne ner ner'. It makes valid concerns about the direction the country is taking into adolescent pointing and jeering- and therefore easy to ignore and dismiss



It's not a case of "because", it's a case of "on top of anything else, her dad's name is Probyn, and her name is Thomasina. OMFG!".
And researching someone's origins is fair game - to know where someone "comes from" is to get a clue as to the attitudes they might have been inculcated with.  If their later actions then appear to be in keeping with those attitudes, then good. If not, that's also good.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Odd how chains which take over these spots are almost universally owned and run by those with inherited privilege though isn't it. Almost like there was some basic economic imbalance in society.



Are you some sort of pinko, Fridge?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Have I claimed that my opinion is objective?
> 
> Nah, it's just you wriggling again, isn't it?


#redacted


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> And while I'm at it, on the Soup Kitchen book...it was published in 2005 when soup kitchens had all but died out. It was a harmless phrase with nothing to most people but historical interest... There were a few 'soup kitchens'- mostly food trucks, referred to as soup-runs usually- ministering to the homeless, but they were seriously considering banning them as not helping address the problems of that group (it was briefly a government policy proposal in 2007, and the proposal was supported by many of the major charities. Shelter still thought they had a place but wrote a whole policy paper on what they were not and should not be. Which included common, regular, part of the established social benefit framework ...)
> 
> Now that our country is going down the toilet, soup kitchens (and food bank, something I had only heard of in socially brutal America) have become both common and loaded terms. It's a bit harsh to blame her for being one of the editors of a book with that title, published 8 years ago before we had any idea soup kitchens would become part of our reality again.



Not wishing to appear that I'm attacking everything you're saying, but soup kitchens have never, over the past 25 years, "all but died out".  They've been part of social reality in most cities since the mid-'80s. I wish to fuck they had "all but died out", but all that happened is that they went a bit more "underground", with most efforts shipping food and blankets from surburban locations, rather than being centrally located in the cities.  Cheaper, you see - more "bang for your buck" to use the local church hall to make the food, rather than hiring a storefront.  The need has always been there, but more so since Thatcher, and looks like it'll become a much more deeply-embedded part of social reality before the neoliberals have finished.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

Santino said:


> God help those eating inauthentic food. Scum. Scum, pure and simple.



G-d doesn't help anyone.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

TruXta said:


> #redacted



#redacted2


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> I can't see the post numbers in the new version of the forum, but there was an exchange between you and VP that started at 9.56, which picked at her name, her dad's name and the village she came from.



Hmm.
I made a crack that Guiting Power is somewhere I'd like to be when the power cuts come (Guiting Power/Getting Power, see what I did?).



> I think it had a very sneering tone. And it takes away from the real point, which is the one Fridgemagnet and then you made much more constructively and clearly- that there is a take over of public life by a cartel who went to school and university together and have access to investment etc which is allowing them to take over public life. That's the real issue



A "sneering tone" (if such a thing was intended, rather than being attributed) doesn't detract from the real point, although I'd concede that focusing on the perceived sneering tone might allow someone to shift the focus from that real point, onto something less relevant.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are you some sort of pinko, Fridge?


*checks whether dad has written any books*


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## ffsear (Oct 2, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Now I have to look up Stella English




Here you go!


----------



## pissflaps (Oct 2, 2013)

/punches monitor


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## cuppa tee (Oct 2, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> It was a book raising money for charity, at a time when soup kitchens were a lot more scarce than they have become in recent years.



Someone needs to edit her Wikipedia page so this philanthropic act does not go unnoticed.


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## el-ahrairah (Oct 2, 2013)

this is a proper old school thread.  reminds me of 2002.  if only hatboy and annakey had lived to see this


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## leanderman (Oct 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hmm.
> I made a crack that Guiting Power is somewhere I'd like to be when the power cuts come (Guiting Power/Getting Power, see what I did?).
> 
> 
> ...



But, most of all, I love the village name, Guiting Power. It's baffling and extraordinary.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 2, 2013)

ffsear said:


> Here you go!




Thanks. I'm flattered

Tho' somehow I think Katy Hopkins would revel in Thomasina's success as proof of the value of good breeding, good schooling and jolly hard work -unlike those layabout 'welfarers'


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## ffsear (Oct 2, 2013)

She would.  That's what makes her a fucking moron!


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## Onket (Oct 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> A "sneering tone" (if such a thing was intended, rather than being attributed)



LOL


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2013)

Onket said:


> LOL



Glad to have entertained you.


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## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> this is a proper old school thread.  reminds me of 2002.  if only hatboy and annakey had lived to see this



I think they might lurk here.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> And on Wahaca/Thomasina Myers- sneering at someone because her parents gave her a silly name is a bit reductive- if she had renamed herself Jane someone would dig out the fact she wasn't really called that and sneer at her for hiding her origins. It's divisive and unpleasant to spend so much time searching for evidence of people's origins and using it to tar and feather them- its part of the divide and rule that this government are pushing so hard, and I'm afraid it's working.
> 
> Sorry to be so blunt in criticising some people on here I like, but I think it's a real shame if a serious point (pertinently here how much investment to get businesses off the ground in this country is tied up in old school/family networks, for example) becomes 'she went to a posh school and has a silly name ner ner ne ner ner'. It makes valid concerns about the direction the country is taking into adolescent pointing and jeering- and therefore easy to ignore and dismiss



The divide and rule that is going on is at: 

 Immigrants, the unemployed, the disabled, those on benefits who live in luxury due to extra bedroom etc

Its also been aimed at people who have Marxists fathers who happen to be Jewish immigrants. Pretty well says it all.

It is definitely not aimed at people like her. These people get an easy ride in the media and in government.


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## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2013)

leanderman said:


> So, because Thomasina has a supposedly posh name it does not mean she is posh?
> 
> Even though she patently is? Some books you can judge by the cover.



If you go on like this you will have the Daily Mail looking into your background.


----------



## oryx (Oct 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> And on Wahaca/Thomasina Myers- sneering at someone because her parents gave her a silly name is a bit reductive- if she had renamed herself Jane someone would dig out the fact she wasn't really called that and sneer at her for hiding her origins. It's divisive and unpleasant to spend so much time searching for evidence of people's origins and using it to tar and feather them- its part of the divide and rule that this government are pushing so hard, and I'm afraid it's working.
> 
> Sorry to be so blunt in criticising some people on here I like, but I think it's a real shame if a serious point (pertinently here how much investment to get businesses off the ground in this country is tied up in old school/family networks, for example) becomes 'she went to a posh school and has a silly name ner ner ne ner ner'. It makes valid concerns about the direction the country is taking into adolescent pointing and jeering- and therefore easy to ignore and dismiss



I agree with you to a large extent, but the 'divide and rule' culture is mainly manifesting itself in attacks on benefit claimants and other financially and socially vulnerable people, while it is largely accepted that the media, the arts, business etc etc is controlled by an upper middle class elite of which I have little doubt that Thomasina Miers is part. 

We as a society are sleepwalking into accepting this, and its consequent relationship to a lack of social mobility. It's all about power, and influence. If pointing out someone's rather privileged background is part of challenging this, then I don't have a problem with it.


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## Gramsci (Oct 2, 2013)

oryx said:


> I agree with you to a large extent, but the 'divide and rule' culture is mainly manifesting itself in attacks on benefit claimants and other financially and socially vulnerable people, while it is largely accepted that the media, the arts, business etc etc is controlled by an upper middle class elite of which I have little doubt that Thomasina Miers is part.



A narrative that is used in media to justify these people is one of personal struggles against illness. Makes these people fit the narrative of pulling themselves up by there bootstraps. Unlike those layabouts who get sent to ATOS.

See here the Daily ( hurrah for the Blackshirts) Mails  article on Thomasina and her struggle with anorexia and depression. Not that these are not real illnesses. It the way they are used as PR. 

Of course these people are not posh they are "Bohemian". 

All this camouflages the ruling elites. They are clever. Make it seem like they are part of a Meritocracy not a self perpetuating ruling class. Cameron is past master at this. 



> She is happily married, to investment banker Mark Williams, and lives a deliciously bohemian lifestyle in a north London Victorian house.






> What viewers didn’t know was that Tommi, as she likes to be known, with her clipped accent that spoke of an uppercrust background, was working through issues with weight, dieting and bingeing.
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...a-Miers-admits-binge-eater.html#ixzz2gblNkrr8


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## leanderman (Oct 3, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> A narrative that is used in media to justify these people is one of personal struggles against illness. Makes these people fit the narrative of pulling themselves up by there bootstraps. Unlike those layabouts who get sent to ATOS.
> 
> See here the Daily ( hurrah for the Blackshirts) Mails  article on Thomasina and her struggle with anorexia and depression. Not that these are not real illnesses. It the way they are used as PR.
> 
> ...



Good analysis. 

Separately, I wonder whether other countries choose first names as carefully as we do to signal status.


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## Ms T (Oct 3, 2013)

You can afford a "deliciously bohemian" lifestyle if you're married to an investment banker. 

While I have no doubt that Thomasina Miers is talented (I have her Mexican cookbooks), it was obvious she was rather monied.  On winning Masterchef, she opened her own restaurant.  Fair enough.  But it was in Covent Garden.


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## ffsear (Oct 3, 2013)

From what I have seen and read about her,   she seems like a talented and decent and hardworking person. I like to judge people for what they are,  rather by where they come from.


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## leanderman (Oct 3, 2013)

ffsear said:


> From what I have seen and read about her,   she seems like a talented and decent person.   I like to judge people for what they are,  rather by where they come from.



The feedback on her food suggests it is excellent value.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

Ms T said:


> You can afford a "deliciously bohemian" lifestyle if you're married to an investment banker.
> 
> While I have no doubt that Thomasina Miers is talented (I have her Mexican cookbooks), it was obvious she was rather monied.  On winning Masterchef, she opened her own restaurant.  Fair enough.  But it was in Covent Garden.



To be fair, lots of the Masterchef winners can expect to do that kind of thing if they want to. I met Shelina P who won last year in The Florence and she had people throwing money at her for restaurant ventures. She was lovely. Her fella runs a pub between Balham and Clapham South.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> If you go on like this you will have the Daily Mail looking into your background.



Definitely, what with his username being an anagram of Lean *Red* Man"!


----------



## leanderman (Nov 3, 2013)

Did anyone explain the extensive building work out the back of Bradys?


----------



## editor (Nov 3, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Did anyone explain the extensive building work out the back of Bradys?


I did ask but no one's answered yet. There seems to be a fair bit of wood going into its construction.


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## leanderman (Nov 3, 2013)

editor said:


> I did ask but no one's answered yet. There seems to be a fair bit of wood going into its construction.



Exactly. It's intriguing. Can't see a planning application.


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## CH1 (Nov 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Exactly. It's intriguing. Can't see a planning application.





Gramsci said:


> A narrative that is used in media to justify these people is one of personal struggles against illness. Makes these people fit the narrative of pulling themselves up by there bootstraps. Unlike those layabouts who get sent to ATOS.
> See here the Daily ( hurrah for the Blackshirts) Mails  article on Thomasina and her struggle with anorexia and depression. Not that these are not real illnesses. It the way they are used as PR.
> Of course these people are not posh they are "Bohemian".
> All this camouflages the ruling elites. They are clever. Make it seem like they are part of a Meritocracy not a self perpetuating ruling class. Cameron is past master at this.


Planning application is here: http://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/online-applications/simpleSearchResults.do?action=firstPage
Design statement is here: http://planning-docs.lambeth.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00437994.pdf
Regarding the Daily Mail article the sentence which stuck out to me was: "My twin brother is schizophrenic and my grandmother killed herself".
My heart melted at that. I guess a true cynic would say I am a victim of the Daily Mail's manipulation of human interest stories. Nevertheless I am fascinated and feel much more positive about this person's enterprise for having seen that. Thank you Gramsci.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2013)

ffsear said:


> I like to judge people for what they are,  rather by where they come from.


you must find it a trial reading other people's posts here then, when they take the opposite attitude


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## happyshopper (Nov 4, 2013)

CH1 said:


> Design statement is here: http://planning-docs.lambeth.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00437994.pdf



The design statement promises that the development will be "vibrant".


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Nov 4, 2013)




----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2013)

happyshopper said:


> The design statement promises that the development will be "vibrant".


Breaks my heart seeing what's happened to this pub and remembering all the bullshit Lambeth came up with. All the effort that people put in crushed by Lambeth's short term interests.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2013)

Added a piece on BrixtonBuzz about the new proposals: http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/11/...or-bradys-public-house-atlantic-road-brixton/


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## leanderman (Nov 4, 2013)

editor said:


> Breaks my heart seeing what's happened to this pub and remembering all the bullshit Lambeth came up with. All the effort that people put in crushed by Lambeth's short term interests.



So seven flats at, say, £400,000 each and a restaurant to let at, who knows, £1,000 a week.

If the one-acre site was sold for less than £1million, a reasonable profit for the developer.

Not sure I'd want to live, Zelig-like, inches from a railway line. 

And will the clock be cleaned and restored?


----------



## CH1 (Nov 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> So seven flats at, say, £400,000 each and a restaurant to let at, who knows, £1,000 a week.
> If the one-acre site was sold for less than £1million, a reasonable profit for the developer.
> Not sure I'd want to live, Zelig-like, inches from a railway line.
> And will the clock be cleaned and restored?


Good points - but surely the cinematic reference should be to Henry Spencer of "Eraserhead". Carve them chickens!


----------



## rio1 (Nov 4, 2013)

Anyone know if planning permission has actually been granted for this or have they started building work without?


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## colacubes (Nov 4, 2013)

Permission was originally granted a few months ago for the 7 flats and for the ground floor to be split into 2 units - 1 retail unit (A1) and 1 cafe/restaurant (A3).  The new application is for the same 7 flats and the 1 cafe/restaurant unit as Wahaca want to take it.  So the answer is not exactly black and white.  I suspect the new planning application is a formality. There's no difference between the original application that was granted and the current one as far as the flats are concerned.  It's more about what happens on the ground floor.  I can't imagine there's any reason it would be rejected for A3 use as half of the previous application was for just that.


----------



## Rushy (Nov 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> So seven flats at, say, £400,000 each and a restaurant to let at, who knows, £1,000 a week.
> 
> If the one-acre site was sold for less than £1million, a reasonable profit for the developer.
> 
> ...


I think it was sold for 750-850K so there will be a lot of profit. This is because the permission for flats was not there when it was purchased so there were no guarantees resi could be added; and a lot of that profit will be from an increase in property values generally over the past 24 months. 

The council should make more effort tomaximise the value of sites before selling. If this one had the permission for flats beforehand they would have been able to achieve far more at sale. Or, they could have sold it for less but with a clawback for planning gain - reducing risk for the developer whilst sharing any upside.

Lambeth often sells houses which they have converted into flats without planning permission. Because they have no permission, they risk being enforced back to a house and you cannot secure finance against them, so they sell for much less than the combined value of the flats. If they bothered to get permission - and they should be able to on most - they would be able to sell for considerably more.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2013)

CH1 said:


> Regarding the Daily Mail article the sentence which stuck out to me was: "My twin brother is schizophrenic and my grandmother killed herself".
> My heart melted at that. I guess a true cynic would say I am a victim of the Daily Mail's manipulation of human interest stories. Nevertheless I am fascinated and feel much more positive about this person's enterprise for having seen that. Thank you Gramsci.


 
Call me a cynic but the interview with her in the Daily Mail comes across as a calculated PR exercise.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 4, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Call me a cynic but the interview with her in the Daily Mail comes across as a calculated PR exercise.


Could be - but I feel an affinity to people expressing compassion about mental suffering. It just makes me very biased.
I did not mean to imply you were a cynic by the way. I kind of assumed that that bit hadn't hit you between the eyes as it did me.


----------



## rio1 (Nov 4, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Lambeth often sells houses which they have converted into flats without planning permission. Because they have no permission, they risk being enforced back to a house and you cannot secure finance against them, so they sell for much less than the combined value of the flats. If they bothered to get permission - and they should be able to on most - they would be able to sell for considerably more.


 
I never really understood why they did this when they, themselves, can grant planning permission.  However, most of the auctions they've done recently seem to have gone for relatively full amounts.  If the conversions were done over ten years ago I think they have to give planning anyway.


----------



## Rushy (Nov 4, 2013)

rio1 said:


> I never really understood why they did this when they, themselves, can grant planning permission.  However, most of the auctions they've done recently seem to have gone for relatively full amounts.  If the conversions were done over ten years ago I think they have to give planning anyway.


If you can prove the conversion (house into flats) was completed and occupied more than 4yrs ago you can get a certificate of lawful use. This should be much easier for the council because they (should) have all the records to hand to prove the case. Mostly, I think they've been going at a discount but you are right that this has been less lately.

Also, they are usually so badly converted that they need to be ripped back to the bare bones and started again.


----------



## leanderman (Nov 4, 2013)

CH1 said:


> Could be - but I feel an affinity to people expressing compassion about mental suffering. It just makes me very biased.
> I did not mean to imply you were a cynic by the way. I kind of assumed that that bit hadn't hit you between the eyes as it did me.



Posh people seem especially prone to family tragedies like that. But I am probably basing this conjecture on reading too many novels.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2013)

CH1 said:


> Could be - but I feel an affinity to people expressing compassion about mental suffering. It just makes me very biased.
> I did not mean to imply you were a cynic by the way. I kind of assumed that that bit hadn't hit you between the eyes as it did me.


 
Mental health issues are in my family background etc.

As for the article I do not like being emotionally manipulated. This article was clearly clever piece of PR. Ever since Stephen Fry did his programme on mental illness ( which was good) Ive noticed coming out as suffering from some kind of mental illness ( anorexia/ Bi polar being the favourite) is seen as good PR move.

This trivialises mental illness imo.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Posh people seem especially prone to family tragedies like that. But I am probably basing this conjecture on reading too many novels.


 
Been reading Oliver James "The Selfish Capitalist". He uses research to show that media (TV etc) shows middle classes and wealthy more than the rest of population. This gives people distorted view of how society works in reality.


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## CH1 (Nov 4, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> As for the article I do not like being emotionally manipulated. etc


The Daily Mail let me down in this respect in 1997. I nearly died of malaria - which was quite a popular thing to do at the time (Simon Hughes' brother died returning from Kenya with undiagnosed malaria for example).
I had 3 weeks in the Hospital for Tropical Diseases - including some days in intensive care. Relatives sent for etc etc.
On recovery the Daily Mail contacted me to do a story (having been passed on by the hospital). Even took photos of me outside St Matthews in my fetching leather jacket. Unfortunately they never published the rather moving article which they wrote.
I was gutted  as I was on the council at the time and it would have been good publicity - free of charge at that.
But I had not conspired to procure it.
As for mental illness - I am supposed to be bipolar, but have always felt alienated. That's why I felt happy in Brixton in the late 1970s I guess. Now I feel alienated because these new so-called yuppies are NOT alienated. Although Thomasina Miers may at least have an appreciation of what alienation and mental illness feels like.


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## leanderman (Nov 25, 2013)

Have we discussed this, a retail box park out back?

http://www.brixtonblog.com/plan-for...ers-behind-former-bradys-pub-in-brixton/18473


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## editor (Nov 25, 2013)

God, that sounds predictably awful.


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## editor (Nov 25, 2013)

Work is already well underway on the back of Bradys.


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## Rushy (Nov 25, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Have we discussed this, a retail box park out back?
> 
> http://www.brixtonblog.com/plan-for...ers-behind-former-bradys-pub-in-brixton/18473


This is terribly annoying as it is now exactly what the land owners (railtrack or TFL) told us they would not let us do.


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## editor (May 22, 2015)

Did those "regular DJ nights" and spaces that are "available for local community events" bigged up on Wahaca's website ever materialise?


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## Rushy (May 22, 2015)

Get a life.

ETA. And have a lovely long weekend.


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## cuppa tee (May 22, 2015)

editor said:


> Did those "regular DJ nights" and spaces that are "available for local community events" bigged up on Wahaca's website ever materialise?


not that I'm aware of but they had a blackboard outside saying that grasshoppers are the menu yesterday.....


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## editor (May 22, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Get a life.
> 
> ETA. And have a lovely long weekend.


I fail to see why asking an entirely reasonable request about whether a chain had delivered on its promises to the community should receive such an abusive response.


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## Ms T (May 22, 2015)

editor said:


> Did those "regular DJ nights" and spaces that are "available for local community events" bigged up on Wahaca's website ever materialise?


They have DJs on a Friday and Saturday night I think. I saw a sign the other day and made a mental note to avoid going then.


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## editor (May 23, 2015)

Ms T said:


> They have DJs on a Friday and Saturday night I think. I saw a sign the other day and made a mental note to avoid going then.


Really? I've never seen or heard anything.


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## Ms T (May 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Really? I've never seen or heard anything.


That's what the sign said.


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## colacubes (May 23, 2015)

Ms T said:


> That's what the sign said.



I have seen the sign also.  I haven't been in at the weekend to see whether or not it was true for the same reasons as you


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## friendofdorothy (May 23, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> not that I'm aware of but they had a blackboard outside saying that grasshoppers are the menu yesterday.....


cocktail? or deep fried?


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## Manter (May 23, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> not that I'm aware of but they had a blackboard outside saying that grasshoppers are the menu yesterday.....


I tried crickets last time I went. There was quite interesting blurb on the menu about sustainable protein..... But they weren't particularly pleasant. Sort of gritty.


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## Ms T (May 23, 2015)

colacubes said:


> I have seen the sign also.  I haven't been in at the weekend to see whether or not it was true for the same reasons as you


#middleaged


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## editor (May 23, 2015)

Manter said:


> I tried crickets last time I went. There was quite interesting blurb on the menu about sustainable protein..... But they weren't particularly pleasant. Sort of gritty.


It's just more foodie marketing bollocks.


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## colacubes (May 23, 2015)

Ms T said:


> #middleaged



Innit


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## Manter (May 23, 2015)

editor said:


> It's just more foodie marketing bollocks.


Also, traditional Mexican street food. Which is what wahaca tries to sell. 

And both that article and what wahaca say on their menu is heavily caveated- we simply don't know what impact eating insects would have, because few people do


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## editor (May 23, 2015)

Manter said:


> Also, traditional Mexican street food. Which is what wahaca tries to sell.


They're after the "incredible vibrancy" of "real" Mexican food. I love vibrant food.


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## Manter (May 23, 2015)

editor said:


> They're after the "incredible vibrancy" of "real" Mexican food. I love vibrant food.


There's really no point talking to you about stuff you've taken against.... I'm sure they are not perfect, but it's really not that bad


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## cuppa tee (May 23, 2015)

Manter said:


> Also, traditional Mexican street food. Which is what wahaca tries to sell.



how many crickets do you think are hopping round Brixton in May, more likely they are imported and and im guessing are being punted to foodies who want to get one over their aspirational chums at the next elitist supper club event


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## Manter (May 23, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> how many crickets do you think are hopping round Brixton in May, more likely they are imported and and im guessing are being punted to foodies who want to get one over their aspirational chums at the next elitist supper club event


Elitist super club? Brixton wahaca?! Um.... Ok


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## cuppa tee (May 23, 2015)

Manter said:


> Elitist super club? Brixton wahaca?! Um.... Ok



foodie snobs have been known to slum it in wahaca from time to time


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## editor (May 23, 2015)

Manter said:


> There's really no point talking to you about stuff you've taken against.... I'm sure they are not perfect, but it's really not that bad


I haven't said that they're bad at all - I have no real opinion about Wahaca either way - but there's nowt wrong with calling out faddy foodie "street food" nonsense when I see it.


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## cuppa tee (May 27, 2015)

Wahaca are now giving out freebies to hard pressed members of the community



> _it was the week-of payday, and i didn't have a tenner to my name. i was gutted, because i've been saying for ages now that i want to do a beer tasting course, because i legit know nothing about beer. when i'm at the pub, i'll get a pint of whatever's going. it all tastes the same to me. real beer lovers will be rolling their eyes at that statement, but that evidences the fact i needed learning. i tweeted them that in response to their ad, asking if they'd be holding another one ~after pay day.
> 
> their response? come on down, and bring a friend - it's on us! never one to refuse an offer of tacos, i grabbed my beer-blogging mate little shaun, and we headed to brixton for_ #tacotuesday.


http://www.bloglovin.com/blogs/bein...og=4617195&frame=1&click=0&user=0&viewer=true

I wonder if they'd do the same for someone without a food/fashion blog


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## editor (May 27, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Wahaca are now giving out freebies to hard pressed members of the community
> 
> 
> http://www.bloglovin.com/blogs/bein...og=4617195&frame=1&click=0&user=0&viewer=true
> ...


And that's one big synergetic PR win for all concerned!


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## cuppa tee (May 27, 2015)

editor said:


> And that's one big synergetic PR win for all concerned!



.......with stats like these who could lose out


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## T & P (May 27, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Wahaca are now giving out freebies to hard pressed members of the community
> 
> 
> http://www.bloglovin.com/blogs/bein...og=4617195&frame=1&click=0&user=0&viewer=true
> ...


Perhaps not. Though to be fair, just like the 99.999% of all the other businesses in Brixton, old and 'nu', which would have also not offered a freebie to an ordinary mortal either.


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## elmpp (May 27, 2015)

editor said:


> And that's one big synergetic PR win for all concerned!


You ruin these boards.

Can't you please at least allow mod ignoring?


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## SpamMisery (May 28, 2015)

elmpp said:


> You ruin these boards.
> 
> Can't you please at least allow mod ignoring?



You can now, just click on his nick


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## cuppa tee (May 28, 2015)

T & P said:


> Perhaps not. Though to be fair, just like the 99.999% of all the other businesses in Brixton, old and 'nu', which would have also not offered a freebie to an ordinary mortal either.


Apologies, my post was more a general comment on the dynamics of the nu-economy than a pop at wahaca specifically


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## ViolentPanda (May 29, 2015)

elmpp said:


> You ruin these boards.
> 
> Can't you please at least allow mod ignoring?



You're a bit of a wanker, aren't you?
The bit that gets wanked.


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## 299 old timer (May 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're a bit of a wanker, aren't you?
> The bit that gets wanked.



That's a bit wanky, even for you.


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## editor (May 29, 2015)

Can we not follow elmpp's FAQ busting lead and stop the off topic personal sniping now, please?


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## Mr Retro (May 31, 2015)

We were in Wahaca last Monday when The Village and Granville were closed. The staff are really friendly if a bit over exuberant-funky, food is good if not brilliant and its a lovely place to sit and eat. For a chain its the best around in my opinion.


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## ViolentPanda (May 31, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> That's a bit wanky, even for you.



The difference being I make no pretence of trying to be a nice person making neutral comments.


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