# Brian Bows Out of Brixton



## Brian (Dec 6, 2002)

To be the police Commander for Lambeth was my career ambition from 1980 when I first served in the Borough.  My fifteen months as Lambeth’s Commander were the most challenging and most fulfilling of my police service.  For me it was not just a job, it was a personal commitment to those I worked for, both to the people of Lambeth and to those brave and committed men and women, the police and support staff of Lambeth.  I look back on this time with enormous pride.

Were I now to return to Lambeth as the Borough Commander, certain sections of the media, whose intentions have been clear from the start, would no doubt highlight and exaggerate the challenges that Lambeth faces.  I would anticipate unreasonable and unjustified attention on the work of my colleagues in the police and unfounded criticism of them should crime rise for any reason.

The Commissioner has made it clear that I should move on to other duties.  Were the Commissioner and his senior colleagues to be pressurised, against their own professional judgement, into reversing their decision, I could not be sure that the London Borough of Lambeth would get the level of support from Scotland Yard that it needs and has every right to expect.  My successor is more likely to secure such support.

For these reasons it is with great reluctance that I have decided it is time for me to put the needs of Lambeth before my own desire to return.  However unfair and unjustified, I believe it is now in the best interests of Lambeth that I move on.

I have spent most of my twenty-six years police service working in London boroughs.  Having been a commander in two different boroughs over a period of four years, I am one of the most experienced ACPO rank officers in borough policing.  I can with authority say, based on the size, complexity and challenge of the job, my successor in Lambeth should be of ACPO rank.

I want to thank all my supporters for their unswerving loyalty.  It was a privilege to serve you as Lambeth’s Commander.  I will continue to have close links with the borough and with Brixton in particular.  I hope to serve you again in the future in some other capacity.  Lambeth is a wonderful place, a great Borough and I wish you all every success in the future.


----------



## Mr Retro (Dec 6, 2002)

My first post here was to say I've never experienced anybody in a position of authority to make so much sense and my feelings have strengthened.

Good luck and thanks, but not goodbye hopefully, Brian.


----------



## Dubversion (Dec 6, 2002)

well it's a terrible shame that things have turned out the way they have, and it angers me that as the first real authority figure with an intelligent approach to the borough's problems, you should be prevented from doing something that you clearly feel deeply.

but i understand and respect your decision and in turn wish you luck in your future. thanks for trying! 

and i hope the residents of your next commission are equally appreciative....


thanks brian


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

As soon as someone comes along brave enough to try a radical approach to engage ALL of the community in a progressive dialogue - and starts getting results - what happens?

The fucking Daily Mail and the 'old guard' destroy it under a smokescreen of homophobia, stitch ups, misinformation and sleazy sex bribes.

...and politicians wonder why so many young people feel completely and utterly disenfranchised by the political process...


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 6, 2002)

so sorry to read this, but I know that whatever path your career takes now you will make a great success of it. Good luck, boss! You did your best, that's what matters.


----------



## Maidmarian (Dec 6, 2002)

Tried to PM you but yer box is full !!!

 So sorry about it all , but I do understand & respect your reasoning.

 All the very best for the future !


----------



## squirmy (Dec 6, 2002)

why the fuck cant good things be left alone?

why do certain sections of the media destroy everything about this country?

brian paddick is a man who understood the ways of brixton. someone who took that knowledge and made things better.

someone like that should be left alone to do their job.

good luck brian


----------



## Chuff (Dec 6, 2002)

Come to Hackney


----------



## Gollum (Dec 6, 2002)

So what now, Brian? What are your plans? Where will you be going?


----------



## Caspar Hauser (Dec 6, 2002)

It's a sad day but I can understand your decision.
Good luck Brian and thank you. You have been an inspiration for a lot of people, myself included.

Respect to the Commander!


----------



## marty21 (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by CliffChuff _
> *Come to Hackney *



absolutely......


----------



## etnea (Dec 6, 2002)

Re-iterating much of the above.  It is a sad day indeed, but much respect to you.  All the best,
Etnea


----------



## Celt (Dec 6, 2002)

Absolute respect.


----------



## hatboy (Dec 6, 2002)

Yeah well, you don't have a choice now do you?

Listen Brain, whatever you can do to salvage a decent
career I don't blame you for.

That's not you talking tho, that is a carefully couched press release - you're one of them now - sorry to lose you but good luck.

God I hate the Mail. Bastards.

And this whole affair has really crystalised my attitude to the police - I've less faith in them than ever.  

Can't you leave the police and do politics or something?

- Paul

(More reasoned, less emotional response later).  I'm really sad about this - for Brixton.


----------



## fudgefactorfive (Dec 6, 2002)

> Were I now to return to Lambeth as the Borough Commander, certain sections of the media, whose intentions have been clear from the start, would no doubt highlight and exaggerate the challenges that Lambeth faces.  I would anticipate unreasonable and unjustified attention on the work of my colleagues in the police and unfounded criticism of them should crime rise for any reason.



This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. It's like saying that we can never have a gay prime minister because it would get other members of the Labour Party into trouble.


----------



## blamblam (Dec 6, 2002)

Hopefully you'll now get a proper job which doesn't involved being in charge of a bunch of racist murderers, and locking poor people up in concrete boxes.

Oooh dear the system you protect has screwed you, you poor thing  let me dry my tears...


----------



## Friz (Dec 6, 2002)

The job of a police officer is to defend and serve the community in the detection and prevention of crime and the preservation of public order. The police operate most effectively as a body, not as individuals. The raising of any particular individuals personal profile for whatever motive is at best a distraction and at worse an obstruction. Lambeth is no different to any other inner city borough. The social problems are equal. Brian Paddicks claim to fame seems to centre around the softly softly approach in offences involving the possession of cannabis. This seems of course to have been a popular move locally but coppers are not employed to be popular they exist to enforce the law. It is the job of Parliament to decide if the possession of cannabis should be lawful or not. When laws are in place they should be enforced otherwise you risk the law appearing an ass. In a calculated move to attract publicity and raise his personal profile Paddick brought about his own demise. History shows this usually to be the end result. He did not lose his job through homophobia he was removed because he was seen in the public eye to condone criminal offences both in his professional and private life. This I am sure was not the case in reality. However because he chose to raise his own profile beyond what is normal for a police officer he has paid a price. Anything else is just sentimental nonsense


----------



## hatboy (Dec 6, 2002)

Fuck off Icepick, what the fuck do you know about it?  You haven't met this bloke and I don't think you live round here do you? If not, butt out.

"All coppers are bastards" bla, bla, bla - how can that attitude ever change things?


----------



## blamblam (Dec 6, 2002)

Oh yes sorry to interrupt the mass arse-licking session hatboy.

Well I suppose if he lets off some stoners then you lot don't really care how many people his cops kills or how many kids he locks up for shoplifting/crack or whatever.

Oh yeah but crackheads are surplus


----------



## blamblam (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *Fuck off Icepick, what the fuck do you know about it?  You haven't met this bloke and I don't think you live round here do you? If not, butt out. *


No but I have spoken to some relatives of people Brixton cops murdered. One of whom was attacked by riot cops on a demo against the killings.

So *you* can fuck off you squirming little brown-nose


----------



## Brian (Dec 6, 2002)

I think this is where I came in....


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

Icepick: do you live in Brixton?

And are you of the opinion that 'all coppers are scum' and therefore must all be branded with the same racist brush, regardless of what the indivisuals or what the local community actually thinks?

Paddick made a real difference in Lambeth, earning the respect of a huge chunk of the community, and - to quote a black leader - "was a model of openness when it came to investigating deaths in custody".

Seeing as it's clear that Paddick's radical approach went some considerable way to bridging the traditional distrust and hate between the black community and the police, is that not a good thing?

What would you have done instead?

You see, it's easy to criticise, but coming up with real world solutions that makes the lives of the community better is a little harder.

I feel that Paddick achieved that and that's why I found myself in the (unique) position of defending a policemen.

What have you achieved? What have you done for the good of this community?


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 6, 2002)

Brian, I'm extremely sad to hear that you've been forced to give up your dream.

But someone like you won't be kept down for long. I am sure you will re-emerge in public life some time in a role that, again, really makes a positive difference to people's lives.

Until then, I wish you all the very best.

i2s


----------



## Caspar Hauser (Dec 6, 2002)

Just fuck off icepick!
Hatboy is really the last person who would call crackheads surplus, on the contrary. 
First you branded Mrs M an racist and now you are attacking hatboy. You are one stupid git, aren't you.


----------



## flygirl (Dec 6, 2002)

Brian,
I wish you all the best for your future in the police force.

FWIW: in my opinion (as an ex-stockwell park estate: tyler house resident) I think you made a real difference in Brixton to how folk saw the police. And you personally changed my mind about the role of the police and policing.
Part of the way you achieved that was by sticking your neck out and being a 'leader' not just a follower.

All the best
flygirl

icepick- you are like a small child with no manners. It is truely embarrasing.


----------



## Rollem (Dec 6, 2002)

One day iceprick you will grow up 

Brian, sorry to see that the bastards succeeded in grinding you down. I don’t blame you for taking this decision (though I don’t believe fully that you had a choice in the first place)

I hope you manage to find a role that both challenges and fulfils you as you work in Lambeth did.

The Met can learn a lot from this, namely how it *is* possible to gain the respect of a community with good, honest policing. 

Good luck Brian, and remember, you may be one of ‘them’ but you’re also one of us


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by flygirl _
> *icepick- you are like a small child with no manners. It is truly embarrasing. *


I couldn't have put it better myself.


----------



## blamblam (Dec 6, 2002)

Oh dear how unusual, criticism's of our saviour Paddick greeted with attacks from all the regulars 

Okay that's cool if hatboy doesn't think crackheads are surplus. Doesn't mean he's not an arse-licker.



> What have you achieved? What have you done for the good of this community


 Yeah sit back and I'll tell you my fucking life story. 

Tell you what I haven't done: I haven't been in charge of a bunch of people who've killed 3 black guys in custody. Aw but as long as you lovely hippies get your draw without having to worry about pc plod then what does a few dead nigger matter


----------



## Beach Bum (Dec 6, 2002)

*Yahoo, Cowboy!!!*

Brian, thank you for having made a difference. While the outcome is not what you had in mind, there is a positive result: the community has pulled together in an unprecedented way. You’ve also offered the public a gay role model beyond reproach.

While change is never fast or easy, you made a good start.

Stay out of trouble, cowboy.

David


----------



## blamblam (Dec 6, 2002)

> Good luck Brian, and remember, you may be one of ‘them’ but you’re also one of us


*retch*


----------



## Mr Retro (Dec 6, 2002)

You've made your point Icepick. Try to be a little dignified and leave it at that.


----------



## Jessiedog (Dec 6, 2002)

Brian was the reason I first came to this site. Sadly, as I predicted at that time, he will not be returning to his position.  


Friz,

How long did it take for you to become such an ill-informed dickwad?


Brian,

You have probably made the right choice to bow out, you were never gonna' win against the system. Good luck with your career and all your future endeavours.

Blessings.

 

Woof


----------



## aurora green (Dec 6, 2002)

Whilst its true neither Paddick nor Icepick need me to stick up for them, I feel reluctantly compelled to comment.

Paddick has done a lot that is very popular within the local community, and it bad that he has been persecuted for it.

However, it is fact that people have died whilst in police custordy in Brixton, and we should never forget this. 

Also anyone involved in the direct action movement will almost certainly have experienced or witnessed police brutality first hand and may find this glorification of law enforcers hard to take. 

There are always two sides to every argument.


----------



## hatboy (Dec 6, 2002)

Friz and Icepick - you have a very superficial take on all this.

It's not about the cannabis policy (although that was sensible), it's about Brian being someone who was developing unprecendented trust between local people and the police.

And listen Icepick - I don't think the sun shines out of Brian's arse. I judge by what I experience, what I see, and I was impressed.

More on deaths in police custody in a moment. I'm just trying to locate a previous post.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Dec 6, 2002)

Whatever Brian Paddick was like as an individual (and I don't know him) it makes no difference to the fact that 3 black people were murdered under his command and every one was covered up......it is also a fact that the police force is institutionally racist and used to smash up pickets and worker's movements. Let us not forget that the MET killed miners and seriously injured 1000s of them in the 1980s. They did the same at Wapping. And they enjoyed it singing songs like "Arthur Scargill pays our wages"......

The police under capitalism play a social role because people are forced to use them that way (being a vigilante is illegal) and even then Asian communities up north were forced to use self-defence (and rightly so) to defend their communities against the BNP cos the racist police force were no use and just persecuted them.....

Only the other day on London Tonight it showed members of the MET intimidating and threatening to arrest firefighters who were staging a demo......

At the end of the day the police force will ultimately be used to oppress people and protect the ruling classes. It will always be used to brutally oppress any militant worker's movements and will always be racist, sexist and homophobic and will oppress the poor cos that is the nature of the capitalist system it serves.....

And police officers, including Brian Paddick, have to take responsibility for serving in an organisation that does this....

PS B4 you ask editor I work in Brixton, am a union steward and have fought my whole life for a better system (socialism/communism).......


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by icepick _
> *Tell you what I haven't done: *


That's a really pathetic cop out. ('scuse the pun) A politician would be proud of that evasion.

What's the matter, icepick - was the question too difficult or awkward for you to answer?

I took the unprecedented step of defending a copper because I felt Paddick's initiatives made a real change for the better in my community (do you live in Lambeth, by the way - you seemed to have avoided that question)

Now you tell me what practical, pragmatic solutions you've got. How would you have set about improving police/black community relations?

Oh, and post up deeply offensive shite like, "as long as you lovely hippies get your draw without having to worry about pc plod then what does a few dead nigger matter " and you'll be banned.

After you've answered my questions, of course. 

If you can.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by icepick _
> *Hopefully you'll now get a proper job which doesn't involved being in charge of a bunch of racist murderers, and locking poor people up in concrete boxes.
> 
> Oooh dear the system you protect has screwed you, you poor thing  let me dry my tears... *



you sir are a fucking cock when will you learn you teenie fucking sad ack grow up and fast.   


brian very sad to hear chap, but there is always hackney or that livingstone fella needs knockin goff his pearch and then you could still have a kinda of influence and help shpa lambeth in a more centralised way.  i reckon you  beat livingstone hands down (and when you do, rather than if , it'll be the best way to say heres mud in yer eye to the hate mail)

good luck 

Paddick for mayor 

get's my vote.....


----------



## hatboy (Dec 6, 2002)

I can't find the post I was looking for unfortunately.

But, of course three deaths in police custody is three too many. Paddick himself acknowleges that. It has also been said by Lee Jasper (chair of the local community police consultative group and the London mayor's advisor on race) and others that the ensuing investigations into these deaths have been the most transparent and thorough in Brixton for a long time, if ever. 

Icepick, don't talk to me about "dead n******".   A friend and neighbour of mine is the cousin of Derek Bennett, the guy shot dead by police over the imitation gun/lighter incident.  Even he ended up signing the petition in support of Paddick.

I've also talked to the mother of Ricky Bishop (one of the three black men who you refer to dying in police custody). Have you?
I didn't pressure her for an opinion, or to support Paddick or anything. I respected her grief and listened to what she had to say.


----------



## jimmer (Dec 6, 2002)

Is it easy for *one* person to make a difference in the police force? 

I think the fact that Brian has been booted out of his job just shows the true role the police play in society, there isn't space to be caring or to listen to people. The idea of having a police force is to oppress, when individuals in it try and do anything about it they're booted out.

I can't say I really have any feelings about Brian losing his job, and as I don't live in Brixton it isn't really anything to do with me.


----------



## hatboy (Dec 6, 2002)

Cockney Rebel - yeah that's the wider picture. The whole point was that Paddick was different from that.  Too different for the Met, which does, sadly,  back up what you say.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Friz _
> *The job of a police officer is to defend and serve the community in the detection and prevention of crime and the preservation of public order. The police operate most effectively as a body, not as individuals. The raising of any particular individuals personal profile for whatever motive is at best a distraction and at worse an obstruction. Lambeth is no different to any other inner city borough. The social problems are equal. Brian Paddicks claim to fame seems to centre around the softly softly approach in offences involving the possession of cannabis. This seems of course to have been a popular move locally but coppers are not employed to be popular they exist to enforce the law. It is the job of Parliament to decide if the possession of cannabis should be lawful or not. When laws are in place they should be enforced otherwise you risk the law appearing an ass. In a calculated move to attract publicity and raise his personal profile Paddick brought about his own demise. History shows this usually to be the end result. He did not lose his job through homophobia he was removed because he was seen in the public eye to condone criminal offences both in his professional and private life. This I am sure was not the case in reality. However because he chose to raise his own profile beyond what is normal for a police officer he has paid a price. Anything else is just sentimental nonsense *



actaully it shows you know very little about law here the decsion as to whether the law has in fact been broken is down to either the senior officer in charge at the time or the arresting officer depending on the size and scale of the arrest.  i would suggest you learn abit more and actually nick off on this one as it is not for a matter for nasty little trolls like you.

paddick for mayor


----------



## fudgefactorfive (Dec 6, 2002)

Question for people that don't live in Brixton: does anyone else find this constant reference to "the Brixton community" and the constant refrain of "Do you live here? If not, what do you know about it?" that comes from Brixtonians when asked critical questions from non-Brixtonians, just a little bit spooky?


----------



## blamblam (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> *That's a really pathetic cop out. ('scuse the pun) A politician would be proud of that evasion.
> 
> What's the matter, icepick - was the question too difficult or awkward for you to answer?*


No not really. I'm just not gonna tell you where I live or justify myself to you.

If ya don't like it, well you know what you can do.

And for the record I have no interest in improving cop/community relations.


----------



## squirmy (Dec 6, 2002)

so if you have no interest in it, why are you making such a big deal in slagging someone of who was making things better?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2002)

*Things go full circle...*

This thread really brought a smile to my face.

Brian broke me up laughing with his quip "this is where I came in" as it's so true.

The issues remain the same even if the faces change.

However open Lee Jasper (another self elected community "leader")  says Brian was investigating deaths in police custody, the deaths remain a serious concern.

Paying attention to Brian's posts here, you have noticed that he always was proud to defend the role of the police and their actions.

He was happy to be part of the co-ercive arm of the state during the miners strike and no doubt other strikes and has not wavered from carrying out the orders of his masters as is his job to do so.

He enforced the law whilst breaking it himself ( I belived his ex when he said Brian smoked dope) which is pretty low behaviour but no doubt typical of the police in general.

Whlst it has been endearing to have a police commander who is more open than his predecessor, radical he isn't because a dedicated police commander can't be.

The Paddick fan club here have been a little overwhelming in there support and admiration for the man. I can understand why this may grate on the nerves of some who take a different attitude to the police.

Many of the fan club however do live in brixton and want to see change occour so I also see they ain't going to wait for any supposed revolution. But wherever you live you have a right to an opinion on the subject.

Bye Brian!

TC


----------



## maes (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fudgefactorfive _
> *Question for people that don't live in Brixton: does anyone else find this constant reference to "the Brixton community" and the constant refrain of "Do you live here? If not, what do you know about it?" that comes from Brixtonians when asked critical questions from non-Brixtonians, just a little bit spooky? *



Are you local?


----------



## hatboy (Dec 6, 2002)

"And for the record I have no interest in improving cop/community relations".

That's a shame really, because it wasn't about us "brown-nosing". It was about them changing, and Paddick was trying to help that.

<edited to add:  ROFLMFAO at Maestro    >


----------



## fudgefactorfive (Dec 6, 2002)

> [hatboy] And this whole affair has really crystalised my attitude to the police - I've less faith in them than ever.



To be frank that sums up how I feel about this as well. Ditto media, ditto government.


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

*Things go full circle...*



> _Originally posted by TopCat _
> *He enforced the law whilst breaking it himself ( I belived his ex when he said Brian smoked dope) *


Really. Have you met his ex then?

What evidence have you? Have you read his expensively-rewarded statement? 

What exactly are you basing your 'belief' on?


----------



## Lock&Light (Dec 6, 2002)

Like you, Jessie, I was first attracted to urban75 by the furore caused by Brian's first postings on these boards. Although I live in Holland, and have no right therefore to speak for Brixtonians, it's been obvious to me that most people recognise the quantum leap Brian's contribution to community policing could have been.  (Children like icepick excepted) 

I feel very sorry that the clock seems to have been turned back.

Brian, I wish you well in the future, and thank you for your great efforts.


----------



## fanta (Dec 6, 2002)

Brian it is a serious blow to the residents of Lambeth, and the police who serve the area, that you have been forced out because of asinine prejudice. The bigots have succeeded in undermining the effective community policing that you were putting in place here.

Iceprick - don't be so fucking immature please.


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by icepick _
> *And for the record I have no interest in improving cop/community relations. *


That figures.

It's always harder to come up with answers, isn't it?

But seeing as you can't handle that question, perhaps you'd like to tell me how you'd improve things around Brixton?

Go on. Use your brain and offer something constructive, pragmatic and realistic.

I dare you.


----------



## elia canetti (Dec 6, 2002)

*What a load of shit!*

Hi Brian

I've lived in Brixton for 21 years, and l'll let you into a little secret.
We hate your guts so much!! When i was in Brixton last year at
a demo for a UNISON guy who had been sacked because of his
support for youths in Brixton which rucked with your cops in July 2001,
we went down coldharbour lane with about 50 people with onlookers
shouting "kill the pigs! Kill the pigs!". Thats is what decent Brixtonians
thing of the police and of you. 

So you can stick your artifically created support up your arse 
once Mike Slocombe finishes licking it.

EC


----------



## squirmy (Dec 6, 2002)

*What a load of shit!*



> _Originally posted by elia canetti _
> *Hi Brian
> 
> I've lived in Brixton for 21 years, and l'll let you into a little secret.
> ...



you live in brixton, yet you say 'when i was in brixton last year'

before you try and slag brian off with such shit at least think about what you are going to say.


----------



## fanta (Dec 6, 2002)

Hey look everyone, elia canetti is back from rehab!


----------



## agricola (Dec 6, 2002)

why is it people feel the need to display their avant-gardeness on this thread?   

Comiserations to the Commander for his enforced move, the way in which the likes of the _Mail_ behaved was sickening, almost as much as the Yard abandoned you.


----------



## elia canetti (Dec 6, 2002)

Yes I no longer live there. But like have said I lived there for
21 years!! I think I know what I'm talking about. And all my
friends who I have grown up with still live in that area, so I feel
I know what people think about brixton cops and the aforementioned
bastard brian!

EC


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2002)

*Mike...*

Yes I believed the expensively rewarded statement. 

It rang true, unlike Brian saying after that he just allowed his lover to smoke it in their flat which did not ring true but was an admission of breaking the law whilst enforcing it on the people of lambeth...


----------



## fat hamster (Dec 6, 2002)

So sorry to see you finally go, mate.  You've had an effect for good far beyond the boundaries of Lambeth.   

Keep the faith!  (((((((Brian)))))))


----------



## hatboy (Dec 6, 2002)

Elia -  Who is "we"?

Who elected you?  In this whole affair I've never said "we all think this" or "Brixton thinks that". What I have said is many people supported Paddick round here. They did.

Remember this. 

"If someone had said just five years ago that black, white, young and old, straight and gay, liberal and anarchist would all be standing together giving a standing ovation to a police commander in Brixton, people might have said they had smoked one spliff too many.  But there they were - the kind of cross-community gathering local politicians would give their right arm for..."

Watch this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/36591000/rm/_36591088_paddick2230_wrout_vi.ram

Ah memories, I remember laughing at that at the time because I was called an "anti-establishment voice" or something. I never told the BBC that. I guess it was because I had a hat on.    

<edited to add: bollocks, that video link didn't work, but it's the "the BBC's Penny Wrout" link on the right of the page in the first link if anyone's interested.>


----------



## cockneyrebel (Dec 6, 2002)

Icepick you shouldn't use words like n***** in any context.....

As for Lee Jasper he would say that wouldn't he. He's very well off and part of the New Labour project, he's hardly gonna object to the fact that the police service serves the ruling classes and smashes up worker's movements if they fight back......

The police force under capitalism will always be racist because capitalism will always be racist and that's what it ultimately serves. That doesn't mean you don't fight for reforms, but ultimately it will always be racist....

Like I said the police have already started intimidating firefighters and would kill again like they did with the miner's strike if given the orders.....any police officer has to take responsibility for this including Brian. He was happy to serve for a force that murders black people, killed miners and smashed up communities and the fact of the matter is they'd do it again...


----------



## blamblam (Dec 6, 2002)

hear hear


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

*What a load of shit!*



> _Originally posted by elia canetti _
> *So you can stick your artifically created support up your arse
> once Mike Slocombe finishes licking it.
> EC *


Seeing as you've decided to make the imsults personal by posting up my full name,  perhaps you'd like to level the playing field and share your real name?

I don't like being insulted by pathetic, spineless, anonymous cowards, you see.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2002)

Well I am glad we are returning to the very real issues of policing ni lambeth. Critical Judgement has been put somewhat on hold since brians move elsewhere.

I will say garfield made me chuckle with his call for Brian to be made mayor rather than Ken Livingstone...

Judgeing both by their actions, well I know who I will vote for...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2002)

*But Mike...*

Your name is all over this site! You allow people to register with nicknames..

Rememeber The Commander!


----------



## agricola (Dec 6, 2002)

cockneyrebel,

not wishing to derail this thread any further, but do you have a source for your claim that the Police are already intimidating the striking Firefighters?


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

*But Mike...*



> _Originally posted by TopCat _
> *Your name is all over this site! You allow people to register with nicknames.. *


That's no excuse. If someone's going to throw offensive insults at me and use my full name,  then they've made it *personal*.


----------



## blamblam (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> *That figures.
> 
> It's always harder to come up with answers, isn't it?
> ...


For starters, legalise all drugs, provide free on the NHS for those who need them, provide housing for everyone by using the empty ones, higher minimum wage, bring unemployment benefit up to a standard to provide a decent living (not gonna be much left crime now is there?), build another tube station in Streatham so Brixton's not so fucking crowded every morning, put in another travelcard machine, let all of the nonviolent prisoners out of brixton prison, pay the firefighters + public service workers a decent wage, put the cops under democratic control of the community and forbid them from breaking strikes.

And how to pay for it? Tax the rich bastards. 

But this isn't gonna happen, so what was the point of your question mr smart arse?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2002)

*Aw come on...*

You called me "Fuckwit troll" after one of my first posts here.

I think you are genuinley fed up that brian won't be back and I accept that.

It's just many people don't think that he was much out of the ordinary, in fact I would go so far as to say that he was/is a cop, no more, no less with all the baggage that entails.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Dec 6, 2002)

agricola it was a piece that was on both London Tonight and Newsroom SE. The firefighters had a demo outside a control room cos a scab worker was working inside.....it was a peaceful protest and the police dispersed the demo saying they would nick all the firefighters and they physically intimidated them and pushed them. They then threatened the union rep with arrest, cos he was doing an interview outside the control room the next day.....

They killed miners (when Paddick was in the police), and would do it again tomorrow if given the orders.....

Paddick and any other police officer have to take responsibility for the fact that their job, as part of the police force, is to oppress workers and ultimately kill them if they get too militant, and oppress black and Asian communities, women (look at the sex industry), gay and lesbian communities and people who are poor and working class.....

Brian Paddick is part of a force that did this, does this and always will do it under capitalism.....


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by icepick _
> *But this isn't gonna happen, so what was the point of your question mr smart arse? *


Just as I thought: you haven't got a single pragmatic, realistic thought in your head, only oceans of hate and Crass-for-beginners fantasies.

Paddick's already done more for the legalisation of cannabis (and harder drugs) than you'll ever achieve in your bitter life.

But your admission that you are unable to offer any form of alternative that would have benefited the Brixton community is duly noted.

It must be great living in your bubble, where you're free to  criticise everyone while contributing absolutely fat zero yourself.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Dec 6, 2002)

Editor I don't think a socialist society is pie in the sky (and neither do hundreds of millions of workers)......

I'm a TU steward in Brixton and have been helping the Brixton fire firefighters day in day out. I also helped in the campaign against racist murders by the police......

Just cos he got soft drugs semi-legalised that doesn't excuse the fact he serves a force that is racist, sexist, and anti-worker.....and the fact that he serves for a force that has murdered untold black people, miners and oppressed any militant strike that has happened.......


----------



## hatboy (Dec 6, 2002)

Well I thought he was a person trying to make movement in a stuck system. 

Icepick - I like all of those ideas. If you said things like that more often here instead of just getting in fights it would be more interesting.

Agree with Cockneyrebel about Icepick's use of the "n" word.


----------



## blamblam (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> Just as I thought: you haven't got a single pragmatic, realistic thought in your head, only oceans of hate and Crass-for-beginners fantasies.


fwiw I've never heard a crass song in my life.

And why's legalising drugs and providing them free not pragmatic or realistically? They do it in Switzerland. And where was the hate in my suggestions?

Ha ha you do get wound up easily!


> Paddick's already done more for the legalisation of cannabis (and harder drugs) than you'll ever achieve in your bitter life.


Ooooh well get you! Better go and end it all now then, eh?


> But your admission that you are unable to offer any form of alternative that would have benefited the Brixton community is duly noted.


Com'on don't you think we really need an extra ticket machine in the station?


> It must be great living in your bubble, where you're free to  criticise everyone while contributing absolutely fat zero yourself.


 
You're really trying hard with these insults.

Get a job, hippy.


----------



## Miscellaneous (Dec 6, 2002)

It's a shame that the top brass have put such a spin on this... you did brilliantly in making Police-Community relations better. It is indeed a great shame, but I hope you can work your magic elsewhere. You have my deepest admiration and respect.


Manda
xxxxxx


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cockneyrebel _
> *Editor I don't think a socialist society is pie in the sky (and neither do hundreds of millions of workers *


I haven't said that *at all* 

I was asking icepick what practical alternatives he could have offered *right here, right now*  for the people of Brixton, and all I got back was a load of tub thumping that had absolutely nothing to do the topic being debated.

For the record, I'd actually like most of what he came up with too, but right now I'm trying to find out if he has anything to offer about  *this topic*  other than sheer hatred.


----------



## stupid kid (Dec 6, 2002)

*But Mike...*



> _Originally posted by TopCat _
> *Your name is all over this site! You allow people to register with nicknames..*


I've also been a victim of abuse of the internet from people I didn't know, and I assure you it's intimidating and infuriating.


----------



## Miscellaneous (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by icepick _
> *You're really trying hard with these insults.
> 
> Get a job, hippy. *



FFS can`t you grow up?  I worked with better behaved 4 year olds.............  

why do you have to make everything into a personal vendetta, if you don`t like something dont reply to it, and leave it well alone.......


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2002)

*Well...*

I posted here originally under my own name and I have got over, and moved on frombeing called a fuckwit troll...


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by icepick _
> *Get a job, hippy. *


What's your job?

Have you got a job?

You sound like a Tory.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2002)

*hahahahah*

Tory!

Come on now, take a deep breath and go and have a pint down the albert...

we can do all this some more later!


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

*Well...*



> _Originally posted by TopCat _
> * and moved on from being called a fuckwit troll... *


You've brought this up twice in the last ten minutes.

Are you getting nostalgic for those days?


----------



## Dubversion (Dec 6, 2002)

i find a lot of this difficult.

in my heart i'm an idealist, and my idealism utterly rejects the police force in its current form and what it is supposed to protect.

in many ways i fucking hate the police, and have been in incidents where nothing would have made me happier than visiting violence on them in return for the violence they have visited on me and mine.

the deaths in custody, the continual bullshit in the police in brixton and everywhere else sickens me.

and yet.. and yet..

is it better to draw an absolutist line in the sand and reject anything that falls short of it, in the meantime brooking no compromise or attempts to at least ease the pressure. or is it better to accept that Brian - for all the contradictions, for all the compromises to my ideals it involves, has for the period he was in charge improved things, if only a little, and did forge stronger links with the community.

OF COURSE he's still a cop. OF COURSE he's still going to defend indefensible actions. OF COURSE the police are capable of being vicious violent scum, and murderers to boot.

but the alternative to trying to make the most of someone as *comparatively* radical as Brian is to sit around and wait for things to get much much worse and wait for  a revolution that probably isn't going to happen. it's the same kind of attitude that led certain socialist groups in the 80s to oppose things like rape crisis centres on the grounds that they were 'revisionist', that by improving peoples' lot, you were setting back the coming of the revolution.

if we do that - if we draw such distinct and immovable lines in the sand - and wait for our idealistic visions to flourish, we'll be climbing over the fucking rubble and bodies and burnt out cars in Coldharbour Lane all over again. and i for one can't be fucked with that. and nor can the people who live there.

icepick, i share some of your ideas, but not all. and Brixton is not there to be a battleground for your idealism, it's where people live and are sick of the shit that happens there. and if that means compromising our principles somewhat by encouraging a comparatively liberal cop rather than a fucking psycho, then so be it.


----------



## blamblam (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> *What's your job?
> 
> Have you got a job?
> ...


Why thank you, madam.

I cross dead people off marketing databases, if you must know 

[geez some people really can't take a joke! damn hippies]

[editor: url removed for a whole host of reasons I can't be arsed to go into. PM me if you want to know why]


----------



## blamblam (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dubversion _
> *and if that means compromising our principles somewhat by encouraging a comparatively liberal cop rather than a fucking psycho, then so be it. *


I've never said paddick wouldn't be better than anyone else. Just am surprised by how everyone here creams their pants at the mere mention of his name. 
"Wow a minor-murderer-scumbag instead of a psycho! Excellent, ur ugh aaaagh.... oh sorry I've just come"


----------



## Jessiedog (Dec 6, 2002)

Total Word Dub!

 

Woof


----------



## nosos (Dec 6, 2002)

*My $0.02*

I don't know Brixton at all and it really has nothing to do with me what-so-ever. But I have read quite a lot of what Brian has written, and he does seem like a person who genuinely cares about others and wants to make a difference. And, to me at least, the whole affair shows just how shit the media, the police and the government in general are.


----------



## Miscellaneous (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by icepick _
> *
> I've never said paddick wouldn't be better than anyone else. Just am surprised by how everyone here creams their pants at the mere mention of his name.
> "Wow a minor-murderer-scumbag instead of a psycho! Excellent, ur ugh aaaagh.... oh sorry I've just come" *



God you are a complete attention-seeking twat arn't you?

Dub- word!!


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by icepick _
> * Just am surprised by how everyone here creams their pants at the mere mention of his name.  *


Forget being a Tory. You've got a job made for you at the Mail!

Who needs troublesome facts when you can dish out ludicrous, Everest-sized misrepresentations and downright lies at the drop of a hat?


----------



## Kidda (Dec 6, 2002)

icepick you've thrown a wobbler cos Brian was getting more attention then you, so now climb back in your pram, be a dear and shut the fuck up. Let them get on with the real issue of this thread
There was no need for your outburst, it was just attention seeking fuckwittery. 
And the insults you threw at Mike just proves this.

Your just a little boy with no real concept of whats going on, your stuck in some anarchist ideology and one day you will get a very big shock. You talk about a working class revolution, whats the bet you really have no clue what its like to be a working class person at the bottom of the shit heap? You come across as a middle class twat who likes to think he's right about everything. i think were the same age, and it makes it hard for me to understand how someone can be so imature. Come join the real world.

Mr Paddick, i dont live in Brixton, but there are many issues up here that are simular to those people in Lambeth face.
I dont like the police or what they stand for, but as a person you proved that there was a bit more too your tuppence worth than most. At least you tried.


----------



## Saxon Rillet (Dec 6, 2002)

I find the obsequious and sycophantic attitude that accompanies everything Brian Paddick does revolting.
If he was a proper copper instead of a social worker, I'd have some respect for him.


----------



## Miscellaneous (Dec 6, 2002)

Saxon- wtf are you on? He is the best thing the police has had for Public Relations for god knows how long.....


----------



## fudgefactorfive (Dec 6, 2002)

Yeah but which kind of PR, manda? Absolutely Fabulous styley, or getting actual facts to actual people styley?


----------



## hatboy (Dec 6, 2002)

Dubversion - spot on.


----------



## solano (Dec 6, 2002)

the voice of brixton eh? white middle class liberal hippy nonsense.


----------



## Miscellaneous (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fudgefactorfive _
> *Yeah but which kind of PR, manda? Absolutely Fabulous styley, or getting actual facts to actual people styley? *



From what I have seen he has been getting the real facts to the people, but you don`t have to take my word for it.......


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solano _
> *the voice of brixton eh? white middle class liberal hippy nonsense. *


I don't recall anyone claiming to be the 'voice of brixton' here.

Perhaps you could point me in the direction of such a post - or are you just making it up as you go along?


----------



## freethepeeps (Dec 6, 2002)

> He is the best thing the police has had for Public Relations for god knows how long.....



Well only if the point was for the police to show itself up as a homophobic, secretive organisation, which doesn't keep its word to the public.


----------



## Miscellaneous (Dec 6, 2002)

> a homophobic



erm I though Brian Paddick Was homosexual?!


----------



## Dubversion (Dec 6, 2002)

manda, i think the point was that the police demonstrated their homophobia by the way they treated paddick


----------



## Miscellaneous (Dec 6, 2002)

fair play dub, i`m bowing out now......

Over and out.

Manda
xxxxxxx


----------



## solano (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> *I don't recall anyone claiming to be the 'voice of brixton' here.
> 
> Perhaps you could point me in the direction of such a post - or are you just making it up as you go along? *




(from Cambridge International Dictionary of English)

forum
noun [C] 
a place or an occasion for talking about a problem or matter esp. of public interest 
The phone-in programme provides/is a forum for the public to express their views on different topics.
The World Economic Forum met in Switzerland.

In ancient Rome the forum was the area in the middle of the town for public business. 

This is the 'Brixton Forum'?


----------



## Dubversion (Dec 6, 2002)

what's your point, solano?

surely if this is the brixton forum, then it is a series of voices about brixton, not all in agreement. which still doesn't resolve what you said about the 'voice of brixton'.

there's no unanimity here.


----------



## fudgefactorfive (Dec 6, 2002)

> there's no unanimity here.



what on this thread? understatement


----------



## Friz (Dec 6, 2002)

Friz,

How long did it take for you to become such an ill-informed dickwad?


Attempting to raise the debate on these boards to a level beyond the kindergarten seems like a hopeless task.
Debates, of whatever colour always have wider issues outside simple local predudice and misconception.
The root of social problems in Lambeth and all other inner city boroughs stem from long political indifference to poverty and deprivation. Who remembers the new Labour election slogan - 'tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime'. Just bullshit. 
The fundamental principle of capitalism is a society geared to reward the 'haves'. The underclass are the enevitable result because not everyone can succeed in such a system. It's structured that way.
The Police are unpopular because they are a tool of that system. Should the system change then so would the Police. Am I stating the ovious here? Their job description is simply to maintain the status quo. Paddick knows that quite well. The moment he took the personal decision to step outside the parameters of his job description it made him a target. I make no value judgement about that, it was probably calculated. His personal ambitions are his own affair. However the blind faith in which others will follow are all to evident here. Paddick has learned his first lesson in politics, be different and for a while the crowd will follow like lemmings. However Lambeth does not need anymore political gimmickary. It needs financial investment from central government. Better social housing for those with no money. Good schools with good teachers. Jobs, real jobs. Afterwards there will be a little less to do for the likes of Mr Paddick. How can that be achieved democratically? By the middle class majority in the shires electing a government that will make them poorer by high taxation. In short, it's never going to happen. The alternative for the underclass is revolt and revolution, not escapism in chemical substances. The sooner the better. This may be an old fashioned concept but it's as true now as in was in seventeenth century France. France is a country of equals as a result of a painful revolution. Eventually there is really no choice.


----------



## Rollem (Dec 6, 2002)

nicely put dub


----------



## fudgefactorfive (Dec 6, 2002)

> Attempting to raise the debate on these boards to a level beyond the kindergarten seems like a hopeless task



It does often seem hopeless but then again it does often happen.

And it is a two-way process remember.


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Dec 6, 2002)

I'm not a Brixtonian but I am a Londoner.  It's sad to see that you won't be back in Lambeth Brian.  

I am sorry to say that it is a significant number of police who I meet (professionally and as a member of the public) who demonstrate unprofessional, uncaring, bigoted, violent or just plain fuck-witted behaviour.  

However, Brian seems to be one of the much needed other sort - and to be fair I've met quite a few of them too.   So I hope he will get a useful hands on job some place where  he can start making a difference again.  

I came to these boards because of the news coverage of Brian.  Since then my long dormant activism has been re-awakened and I now find myself aligning with "anarchists" "hippies" and other "enemies of the state" on demos and in arguments with friends and colleagues.  So if nothing else, Brian has been responsible for the recruitment of one more Urbanite.  

And Icepick, what have you achieved?  Well, you've got me to use the Ignore function for the first time.


----------



## editor (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solano _
> *(from Cambridge International Dictionary of English)
> <snip>
> In ancient Rome the forum was the area in the middle of the town for public business.
> ...


This is laughably desperate! And what a selective quote too!

Here's the dictionary definitions you seemed to have conveniently missed out - no doubt, purely by accident, eh?

"Forum: 

A public meeting place for open discussion

A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program"

And that's just about what it is.

At no point have I, or anyone else claimed to be, 'The Voice of Brixton' like you suggested and your attempts to prove otherwise have rather failed, haven't they?


----------



## Peter Matisse (Dec 6, 2002)

As a resident of Lambeth for 24 years I am sorry to see you leave Brian.

There has been a lot of ill informed rhetoric on this thread by people who are too imature and too ill informed to do other than offer gratuitous insults.

The point about Brian is that he has worked within an institutionally bioted organisation and has tried to effect change through his own efforts within that organisation. It takes great courage to do that, it is easy to stand and shout on the outside knowing that you will not have to put your own words into practice. 

To all those who are braying like donkeys about being glad Brian has gone, I say wait and see what will happen in Lambeth now. I can almost gaurantee that before the year is out you will be wishing he were still in charge.

As a gay man myself I am very proud of Brian, and I am very proud to have been part of the campaign in support of him. 

I wish you well in whatever you chose to do in the future Brian, Lambeth will be a poorer place without you.


----------



## Jessiedog (Dec 6, 2002)

Friz,

That's much better!

Maybe I was too quick to judge, for which I apologise. It's been a traumatic nite for me (what with having to fend off "reasonable" hunt supporters till grassy gets there 'n all).

I would say though that until the revolution arrives, Lambeth would (IMO) be better off with Brian at the helm of the police rather than anyone else.

Further, the legalisation/regulation of all drugs, would go a long way towards solving many of the UK's problems.

Welcome to the machine!

 

Woof


----------



## Peter Matisse (Dec 6, 2002)

Jessiedog

How right you are about drugs.


----------



## solano (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> *This is laughably desperate! And what a selective quote too!
> 
> Here's the dictionary definitions you seemed to have conveniently missed out - no doubt, purely by accident, eh?
> ...



I left out the above because that's already glaringly obvious, my intention was to offer 'other' meanings for the word 'forum'.  And why are you so obsessed with yourself michael? i used the term 'voice' to mean a collective voice.


----------



## Jessiedog (Dec 6, 2002)

Peter,

For a fuller rant of mine, you could check half way down this page.

Blessings.

 

Woof


----------



## Dubversion (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solano _
> *
> 
> I left out the above because that's already glaringly obvious, my intention was to offer 'other' meanings for the word 'forum'.  And why are you so obsessed with yourself michael? i used the term 'voice' to mean a collective voice. *





*



			the voice of brixton eh? white middle class liberal hippy nonsense
		
Click to expand...

 * 

by meaning collective voice, you still shoot yourself in the foot, solano, for the very reason that - as this thread ably demonstrates - there is no 'collective voice'. there are as many people against brian as for, it seems.

so your jibe was either directed at mike, or at a non-existent collective voice.

which is it?


----------



## solano (Dec 6, 2002)

quote:  by meaning collective voice, you still shoot yourself in the foot, solano, for the very reason that - as this thread ably demonstrates - there is no 'collective voice'. there are as many people against brian as for, it seems.

so your jibe was either directed at mike, or at a non-existent collective voice.

which is it?

****

? 
firstly i think there's alot more of importance on this thread than my 'jibe'.  secondly, a collective does not necessarily agree with each other.  obviously this forum is a collective of people who live/lived in, or know of Brixton.  Reading through this thread i got the impression that it was in the majority, supportive of the OB/Brian & that most of these supportive comments bore similarities that i would consider to be a mixture of 'white' 'middleclass' 'hippy' or 'liberal' positions.


----------



## Dubversion (Dec 6, 2002)

well as someone who offered qualified support to brian, which am i, solano? or hatboy? or mike?

do you actually have a fucking clue to back up your lazy stereotyping?


----------



## solano (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dubversion _
> *well as someone who offered qualified support to brian, which am i, solano? or hatboy? or mike?
> 
> do you actually have a fucking clue to back up your lazy stereotyping? *



what's wrong with lazy stereotyping?

reforming the police i would consider to be a liberal position.


----------



## Dubversion (Dec 6, 2002)

it probably is, and one i dont feel terribly comfortable with.

but if you read my previous post - posted as a non-hippy, non-liberal, certainly non-middle class Brixton (ish) resident, perhaps you might see why i see paddick as a very qualified and contextual good thing. not in an absolute, ideological sense, but in the sense of being preferable to whatever SPG-trained hardcase they replace him with.


----------



## elia canetti (Dec 7, 2002)

*Anarchists support Brian Paddick?*

Talking about representation, when was it decided and by
whom [Mike Slocombe?] that anarchists support Brian Paddick.
SOmething which was posted to the indymedia not long ago.
In my eyes anyone that supports cops no matter how liberal
the cop maybe is NOT an Anarchist. Maybe the Green Party/
legalise Canabis people liked Brian because it allowed them
to set-up there little rackets in brixton? 

As for Lee Jasper, he wanted to put me in prison as one of the
supposed Mayday organisers. A fucking Uncle tom if I ever saw
one. And do the Brixton anarchists support Lee Jasper aswell?

Get your politics straight, Brian Paddick was a cop that believed
in Capitalism, believed in the state and was happy to make his
career out of the paramilitary style policing of his rank and file 
piglets in Brixton. 

EC


----------



## hatboy (Dec 7, 2002)

Solano said:  "white middle class hippy bollocks" or something.

Listen Solano, if it was only the white middle class who supported Paddick, then I would not have supported him myself because this would have indicated that he wasn't getting it right.

I was at the meeting reported by the BBC thus:

"If someone had said just five years ago that black, white, young and old, straight and gay, liberal and anarchist would all be standing together giving a standing ovation to a police commander in Brixton, people might have said they had smoked one spliff too many. But there they were - the kind of cross-community gathering local politicians would give their right arm for..." 

... and I also collected signatures for the petition in support of Paddick. As the BBC reported there was cross-community support.

Friz - I resent the implication that Paddick supporters are "lemmings". I am quite capable of thinking intelligently for myself and do. My support for Paddick was not unconditional, it was based on a rational assessment of him and his ideas.

I notice that my posts earlier in this thread aren't countered, perhaps that's because I'm talking sense.


----------



## editor (Dec 7, 2002)

*Anarchists support Brian Paddick?*



> _Originally posted by elia canetti _
> *Talking about representation, when was it decided and by
> whom [Mike Slocombe?] that anarchists support Brian Paddick.*


Exactly where are you getting this bullshit from?

Do you actually read what gets posted here or do you just make it up to show what a clueless, cowardly twat you are?

Firstly: who the fuck are you? You keep name-checking me, so why don't you level the playing field and reveal your own name - or are anonymous, spineless snipes the best you can manage?

Secondly, what the fuck are you on about with all this 'anarchist' shit?

No one here has ever declared themselves a spokesperson for 'the anarchists' - least of all me - and no one has ever been so stupid as to declare that 'all anarchists support Paddick'.

So where are you getting this shit from? Some shitty tabloid paper? 

Can't you think for yourself?


----------



## Gerry1time (Dec 7, 2002)

As an occasional U75 poster and long time lurker, i can't believe that a thread like this has disappeared into non related and bitchy arguments between people.

From an internet and  encouraging true democracy point of view, Brian posting his resignation letter just as a thread, and  letting anyone anywhere respond is not a bad thing, to say the least. Who else EVER does that these days?

I couldn't care less if he were lib dem, tory or labour (trade union, socialist or new), pro anarchist/ anti anarchist/ guardian reading anarchist. He's published his resignation letter to people who will be affected by it, with the whole world watching...

For that, on a human being to human being level, he gains my deepest respect...

He also seemed to do a lot of good work in his area. Which surely is the best test of someone in their job?

Perhaps though, from what i read of his resignation letter, we shouldn't expect anything too bad. By stressing the importance of an ACPO level officer, he's ensuring things won't be as bad as some other choices. As for what he suggested in the letter about is future jobs. Well, i don't expect to have seen the last of him for a good long while. Martin Bell bacame an MP after all.....


gerry1time


----------



## editor (Dec 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solano _
> *  And why are you so obsessed with yourself michael? i used the term 'voice' to mean a collective voice. *


Strange how there seems to be so many posters ready to engage me on first name terms while they hide behind their anonymous log ins, isn't it?

If you want to call me my by my real name as oposed to my board name, then have the fucking bottle to include your own full name and personal details so that I can argue with you on an equal basis.


----------



## freethepeeps (Dec 7, 2002)

Equal basis?

Are we all editors now?

I stayed out of this one, cos I know how hot and bothered you get on this topic ed!


----------



## Cartoon Cowboy (Dec 7, 2002)

*Gerry1time*

Top post! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





You should come out of your shell more often. 

The Paddick affair is not of direct relevance to me (though it was what brought me to these boards) but I am saddened that he has been villified and undermined and see his removal (which is what this is) as a starkly retrograde step.

Paddick should be remembered for his courage and commitment to those he was supposed to be serving - the people of Lambeth and for the long-term good that his influence will surely have. I would ask the ones who seem so keen to heap scorn on him if they can really see no difference between him and most other senior police officers in the UK.


----------



## editor (Dec 7, 2002)

It's one thing to argue with me as another poster, but when I start getting personally attacked by name, it seems entirely reasonable for me to ask the same of those name-checking me.

Why else would anyone bother to post up my full name unless they were escalating it into a personal attack?

So if these individuals don't want to be accused of being spineless cowards, I would invite them to give me the same opportunity of knowing exactly who they are and what they do.

Seems fair to me....


----------



## Vixiha (Dec 7, 2002)

*Frizz*, protecting & serving the public does not include strictly enforcing every single law to the detriment of society.  

We have tons of stupid laws that aren't enforced.  I think here, it's still illegal to commit adultry but nobody's been arrested for it for decades.  Anal sex is still illegal in some states too, but nobody's enforcing that one either.

Drug laws are more harmful to society than the drugs themselves.  And even in cases where the drugs have become harmful to someone, addiction is a disease, not a crime.  Realizing that doesn't make you a bad cop, to the contrary, it makes you an enlightened & compassionate one.


----------



## Jessiedog (Dec 7, 2002)

Word CC and Vix!

 

Woof


----------



## ernestolynch (Dec 7, 2002)

Asides - having been on the receiving end of 'icepick's childish rants on many an occasion, and also been called a 'fucking knacker' by Solano - its interesting to see their little tantrums on this thread.

I'm largely ambivalent to the issue of Paddick - it was good to see someone in the police who had slightly left-of-centre issues. Not all 'coppers are bastards' - many join up to actually serve their community, shock horror. A friend of mine joined up and she holds more left-wing opinions than many of my other friends.

However of course I am in favour of a violent communist revolution with *no mercy* for capitalists and their lackeys - but as that seems a long way off in this country, I'm happy to see piecemeal advances towards bettering our lives in the here and now.

Dub's post a few pages back was the one I agree with most. 

To icepick - who seems to revel in the fact that he works in the odious marketing industry - what a help to the community he is....have you ever thought about it is like to work the streets in inner-city London - dealing with the flotsam and jetsam of capitalism's lashings? Investigating rape, assault and child abuse cases? Your call for an immediate 'stateless' society is utopian and as dead-end as nomoney.

In a violent communist revolution I reckon that there are many coppers, soldiers who would come over to the side of the people.


----------



## Friz (Dec 7, 2002)

The post by Vixiha gets to some of the meat in the Paddick affair.

Successive governments in Britain do not have the bottle to legalise drugs. It would alienate the middle class vote on which they depend. So they tolerate a liberal interpretation in the enforcement of some laws and not others. Particulary those which suit them best. They use policemen like Paddick as scapegoats because they themselves are lacking moral and political courage, a cultural malaise in Britain. 
Paddick could never have carried out his experiments in Lambeth without prior authorisation from the Home Office. They used him as a front man and when his private life became public there was a problem. He was no longer useful to their dubious end game. He lost moral credulity in the eyes of the middle class voters. 
Why else would a newspaper like The Daily Mail bother with such a story? Answer - In order to damage the government to whom they are opposed. Their readership are the very voters on which Blair depends.
This so called new Labour government will stop at nothing to preserve their core support among middle England voters.
Policemen are paid to enforce and uphold the laws of Parliament not interpret them. After all the Law is supposed to represent the will of the majority. Cops are just tools in a process. If the have other personal ambitions they should have the courage to resign and do something more useful.


----------



## freethepeeps (Dec 7, 2002)

> They used him as a front man and when his private life became public there was a problem.



I think it's what led to his private life being exposed, as that happened after he'd already been attacked by the Police Federation.



> Why else would a newspaper like The Daily Mail bother with such a story? Answer - In order to damage the government to whom they are opposed.



How about because they're knee-jerk reactionaries who are homophobic and hate stoners?


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 7, 2002)

I can't believe I am reading some of shit that has been posted here, the nasty stuff I mean. All Brian wanted to achieve by starting this thread was to explain why he's not returning to Lambeth. People with their own agendas have hijacked it and turned it into a hate-thread against the police in general.
I am all for free-speech and discussion but this has degenerated beyond that and I sometimes think that these so-called hardcore 'anarchists' are as bad with their bigoted attitude towards the police as the hardcore racists who say that 'all black people are bad because of their skin colour.'
It's the same way of thinking, never seeing the good in people.

Brian, you tried your best, just ignore these ignorant people, they know nothing.


----------



## freethepeeps (Dec 7, 2002)

> I am all for free-speech and discussion but this has degenerated beyond that



If its limited its not free!



> I sometimes think that these so-called hardcore 'anarchists' are as bad with their bigoted attitude towards the police as the hardcore racists who say that 'all black people are bad because of their skin colour.'



Its not the best comparison, is it.

Coppers choose to become, and can equally choose to not be coppers.

Perhaps you haven't noticed how coppers feel about anarchists?

That's a lot of the reason Brian ended up in hot water. The "Anarchy is attractive" business.

Anyway, Brian knew the score, as he said earlier in the thread.

Personally, I will never forget his claim that the Met was the best in the world at dealing with protests  and his statement that the policing at the MFJ march was ok, when it clearly wasn't.

At the end of the day, the police force is the boot boy of the state.

Anarchy is incompatible with both those forms of social control.

I'm sure that there are "nice" people in all sorts of shit organisations. Does that mean I should love MacDs cos the bloke who fries burgers is an ok individual. Or that I should love Parliament cos a couple of Mps are ok to talk to over the dinner table? Or the World Bank because its got Mamphele Ramphele in it?


----------



## Streathamite (Dec 7, 2002)

FTP, he was y FAR the best top cop brixton ever had. FFS, learn enough pragmatism to live in the real world with the rest of us.
(bravely attempts to drag thread back on topic). Brian, I'm so sorry you've taken this decision. I feel honoured to have been involved in the ccampaign to get you back to lambeth - and gutted we've failed.
so this is what defeat feels like - horrible. 
But you've made this decision for reasons as honourable as ever.
You're a star. Brixton will miss you. Dammit, I'll miss you!


----------



## Choc (Dec 7, 2002)

sorry to hear this brian paddick.

i hope you will get a good job you will like again very soon!
and whatever (shit) has happened here in your career and for us people in brixton you already have made a big difference and will be viewed in the future and already now as a sort of pioneer!

once you get a stone rolling (saying?)......you can't stop it anymore!


----------



## freethepeeps (Dec 7, 2002)

Its debatable as to whether he was Brixton's best cop ever.

Anyway, as Brian will now be involved in Intelligence Gathering for the Met, there's every likelihood I haven't heard the last of him, even if you lot have.


----------



## hatboy (Dec 7, 2002)

FTP said -

"I'm sure that there are "nice" people in all sorts of shit organisations. Does that mean I should love MacDs cos the bloke who fries burgers is an ok individual".

No, it means that you should continue to dislilke McDonalds whilst respecting the "OK individual".

This is how I, and many others, viewed Paddick.

Speak as you find.


----------



## Saxon Rillet (Dec 7, 2002)

I was saddened to discover that my post on this subject was deleted.
There was nothing homophpobic, racist or offensive in it. Merely a condemnation of the pro-Brian brigade - of which the editor is an humble cog in the machine - and it's failure to discern that Paddick might in some small way be responsible for his own demise.
We already live in an age dominated by the likes of The Guardian newspaper - once the radical mouthpiece of progress - which is nothing more now than a microphone for the Labour Party.

Denying free speech is the work of a despot, the hallmark of a fascist regime. Is that how you would like U75 to be known?

Both the Nazis and the Communists - the two most execrated types of political idealogues this world has known - were right in their methods of control. They knew that killing debate, opinion, the voice of the free, was a sure fire way of ensuring their vile hegemony was prevalent. I fear your actions have led you down this path.

What happened to my modest two line post? Where did it go?

I'm sorry to hear you're out of a job, Mr Paddick.Perhaps Barbara Roche has got a place for you in the multi-million pound tax-payer funded OTPOTSS department of the Government.


----------



## JHE (Dec 7, 2002)

*Imaginary censorship?*

What are you talking about, SR?  What was deleted?  Your earlier post is still there...

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=554555#post554555


----------



## Saxon Rillet (Dec 7, 2002)

JHE, you're right. Absolute contrition on my part, especially to the editor who I suggested had deleted my post. I simply got lost and couldn't find it. I committed a grave misjudgment and for that I sincerely apologize to the editor and all the other posters who have taken part in this debate.


----------



## ernestolynch (Dec 7, 2002)

Sympathetic as I am to the idea of a copper who smokes draw (after all is that not the issue here) lets not delude ourselves with the idea that the 5 or 6 people on this internet message board who live in Brixton (who are all blow-ins from outside of Lambeth/London) are not really representative of the so-called Brixton 'community'.

The 'Race' thread on General is a testament to that.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ernestolynch _
> *Sympathetic as I am to the idea of a copper who smokes draw *



he didn't do that, get your facts right.


----------



## ats (Dec 7, 2002)

I think a lot of the posters here are rather missing the point.

Many people in Lambeth, and in the Brixton community in particular, have been working for the last twenty years to establish dialogue between police and community.  We would argue that policing must take place with the consent of the community.

Innovations such as lay visiting, which started in Lambeth as part of that process, have been adopted nationally. 

Brian Paddick's significance was that he recognised that working with the community was of major importance.  What's been lost is not an individual copper, but a voice for an entire community.

Good luck in your future career, Brian.  We'll miss you.


----------



## ernestolynch (Dec 7, 2002)

I seriously doubt the validity and franchise of the self-proclaimed 'Brixton community' eveident on these boards. Where are the black people of Brixton represented here? The working class? The huge number of yuppie scum who are buying up flats at the rate of knots, sending long-time Brixtonians down the A23 to Streatham, Norbury and West Croydon? The white flight from Brixton to Carshalton and Sutton?

What about John Major?

The half-dozen internet-using web-design types who *currently* reside in Brixton do not constitute a 'community'.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ernestolynch _
> *
> What about John Major?
> 
> *



now, that IS funny!


----------



## editor (Dec 7, 2002)

*Imaginary censorship?*



> _Originally posted by JHE _
> *What are you talking about, SR?  What was deleted?  Your earlier post is still there... *


You know if there's one thing that REALLY pisses me off, it's when individuals launch into outrageous, slanderous rants accusing me of "denying free speech", being a "despot" and "showing the hallmarks of a fascist regime" only for them to later realise that they got their facts *completely and utterly wrong*.

And what was the terrible 'despotic', 'fascist' act I was supposed to have committed? 

Heck, Saxon thought I deleted *one*  precious post of his!
Which - it turns out - I hadn't touched - it was still there, untouched. What a clown!

It seems ol' Sax was so blinded by clueless, knee-jerk indignation he couldn't muster the energy needed to use the simple search facility provided on every page.

I'm going to go to the pub to think about this, but don't be surprised if you end up being banned, Saxon.

I *really* don't like having to read a pageful of spiteful, hateful bile aimed at me, neither do I enjoy half baked lectures on the evils of Nazism, especially when it's delivered by an abusive  big mouth who can't even get the simplest of facts right.


----------



## Stig (Dec 7, 2002)

*W of W ... I've read all of it.*



> I'm going to go to the pub to think about this, but don't be surprised if you end up being banned, Saxon.



Respect to all who have debated the issue *properly and
objectively* on this thread. I agree with Dub's post most, and I think ernest's post made a lot of sense too, likewise hatboy who knows of what he speaks.

More when I'm less drunk.


----------



## ernestolynch (Dec 7, 2002)

That's the first time I've ever been praised. 

As for Saxon - he's not worth the skin on anyone's fingertips.


----------



## editor (Dec 8, 2002)

I'm still chortling over his tragically misguided onslaught:

"Denying free speech is the work of a despot, the hallmark of a fascist regime. Is that how you would like U75 to be known?"

...followed by his equally misguided historical lecture:

"Both the Nazis and the Communists - the two most execrated types of political idealogues this world has known - were right in their methods of control. They knew that killing debate, opinion, the voice of the free, was a sure fire way of ensuring their vile hegemony was prevalent. I fear your actions have led you down this path."

Of course, the real tragedy is that the guy is so full of himself that he immediately assumes that the disappearance of his single post must signify a complete volte-face of my every one of my political beliefs.

That's how 'dangerous' he believes his dull and ineffectual post was.

What a dreamer!


----------



## pooka (Dec 8, 2002)

Brian: Just to say good luck and thanks for making a difference. Whoever your sucessor is, they know what they will be measured against. And the democratic deficit in policing will not go away. Your comment "Were the Commissioner and his senior colleagues to be pressurised, against their own professional judgement, into reversing their decision, I could not be sure that the London Borough of Lambeth would get the level of support from Scotland Yard that it needs....", hardly inspires confidence!

As for the rest of this thread. Sad to see how many people view this issue through the narrow prisms of Urban75 or of their own ideologies. They should get out and about more and spend some time with real people in the borough.

(Incidentally, cockneyrebel, where did the Met kill miners? Sounds like your source is the same as the person on the Miners Strike thread who announced that Orgreave was a working colliery into which "scabs" were being bussed!)


----------



## maximilian ping (Dec 8, 2002)

best thread i've read on u75. pure class.

i woke up in australia with the worst hangover ever. my hand hurts after a bouncer threw me down some stairs. but after reading all this stuff i'm getting sober.

i was at a meeting of the lambeth community-police group after paddick was nobbled by mail on sunday. the black community had loads of good things to say about him. so its not just middle class bleeding lib whities who like him.  

icepick etc. what a bunch of tuff urban warriors! people who hate all coppers should be buried alive, preferably with any children they have, to aid the gene pool. i suppose if you lot of snobs were getting slowly kicked to death in an alley you would refuse a copper's help. fucking freaks

good effort brian


----------



## grubby local (Dec 8, 2002)

a general  .

Mr Ping, i seem to remember you from somewhere?
gx


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by maximilian ping _
> *icepick etc. what a bunch of tuff urban warriors! people who hate all coppers should be buried alive, preferably with any children they have, to aid the gene pool. i suppose if you lot of snobs were getting slowly kicked to death in an alley you would refuse a copper's help. fucking freaks
> *



one hopes that ice pick would stay true to his word and say fuck off copper to his last breath ....i wonder if the throey could be tested


----------



## hatboy (Dec 8, 2002)

Ernesto said:

"Sympathetic as I am to the idea of a copper who smokes draw (after all is that not the issue here) lets not delude ourselves with the idea that the 5 or 6 people on this internet message board who live in Brixton (who are all blow-ins from outside of Lambeth/London) are not really representative of the so-called Brixton 'community'. 

The 'Race' thread on General is a testament to that".

I see your point, but, no, it wasn't about draw, it was about (as ats pointed out) what has come to be called "policing by consent".

5 or 6 people on Urban75 eh? It was much bigger than that, and it didn't centre around U75. It happened in Brixton, the real-life Brixton.

Go and view the BBC video of the March meeting at the Town Hall. And then there was the 5000 signature petition.

Also Ernesto, regarding this "currently reside" thing.  Listen, I may originally be what you call a "blow-in" to South London (some 18 years ago) but Brixton is more home to me now than anywhere has ever been and I'm not "currently residing". I live here and I'm staying.

I don't live in a bubble you know. I talk to people. And defer to those who know more than I do. I have a variety of friends including people born and raised in Brixton.  I didn't ignore their opinions throughout this whole affair.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 8, 2002)

I have looked at most of this thread.I thought Dubversion post was the one I am most in agreement.I thought some of the attacks on the editor were below the belt.This site does provide a genuine forum where a range of views can be expressed.I am also impressed how well the site works on a technical level(try using LBLs site etc for a comparison and also LBLs own "forums").All this is down by a lot of voluntary unpaid effort.

       I was talking to a friend yesterday she pointed out that the Daily Mail is influential with sales of two million(therefore the readership would be higher).It seems to me that this country is run by middle England with an obsequious new Labour government in tow.They would regard anyone who lives in Brixton as dirt.Which saddens me that some of the argument on this thread has got so heated.The average middle Englander would not differentiate between say Hatboy and Icepick.


----------



## chegrimandi (Dec 8, 2002)

bloody hell, that was a bit of a bar-room brawl, now wasn't it...

I know very little of the subject matter but for the record, it seems sad to me that people that try and do something positive for a community should be subjected to such vitriolic abuse....

For example, I think people (I know I do) use this site as a very good source of information, on a huge range of contemporary topics. The person/people  that is/are involved with running the site do not deserve to get abused for their bloody beliefs and agendas.....there are people that criticise from afar and people that try and do stuff to change things - this is much harder than the first option because more often than not you will fail - people in general don't like failure...

icepick you seem very bitter and angry, I suggest you move on matey....! YOU BIG NUTTER


----------



## newbie (Dec 8, 2002)

> I seriously doubt the validity and franchise of the self-proclaimed 'Brixton community' eveident on these boards.



Why?  do you think we're pretending to live here, or someone is controlling our views.  Do you honestly think this whole Paddick thing has been orchestrated by people who've just arrived in Brixton on the wave of the latest trendiness?  Don't be so silly.

I don't think that there has been any claim that the people who natter here represent any particular 'community'.  We represent ourselves, nothing more than that, and have as much right as anyone to discuss our local policing.

As for being blow-ins, is it really necessary to be born here to have a view?  A very large proportion of both Lambeth and London residents are migrants of one sort or another.  So what.  I don't know where you live (or why you're interfering in our parochial issues), but if only people born there are entitled to a view then is it any wonder the brightest leave at their first opportunity and most don't come back.  They, we, live in the big city because it's not run by people who expect their grandparents to validate any fresh opinion.

[for the record I was born in London and first moved to Brixton in 1973]


----------



## Brian (Dec 8, 2002)

I really appreciate all you guys entering the debate.  The thing about views that you strongly disagree with is they make you think.  They make you question what you do and what you believe in.  That has got to be healthy.  I hope none of you are completely unchanged by what has been said here.

At the end of the day, I just wanted to try to make things better within the limited sphere in which I operated.  I will leave the revolution to you guys!

I have a realistic view of the police, not an idealistic one.  At this point in history I believe I can achieve more good as a serving experienced police Commander than an ex-cop.  Rest assured, you have not heard the last of me.  There is more work to be done.


----------



## JHE (Dec 8, 2002)

As one of the many people who first heard of u75 from a newspaper article about you, Brian Paddick, I'd like to say that you seem a very sensible person.

I first looked at the debates on these boards just out of curiosity, to see if there was any truth in the Evening Standard's version of events, that a senior police officer was oddly sympathetic to anarchism etc.  What I found, apart from some unexceptional comments about anarchism, was that a (by then famous!) police officer had wanted to engage with others about what _policing priorities_ should be.

I'm not going to look up the archives to find your list, but I remember that it seemed exactly the sort of thing that any decent person who knows of the crime problems in London should support.  

You say that you had long wanted to be involved in the policing of Lambeth and this is no longer an option.  I'm sorry that it didn't work out and suspect  that some people were out to get you because you were seen as unusually liberal and/or because you're homosexual.

Best of luck to you, and I hope that your sort of view of what the police in London should be concentrating on prevails.


----------



## maximilian ping (Dec 8, 2002)

Mr Local, i believe we have met. Lahore was it? 1944? wot wot.
Frontline may be joining us soon. teehee. 
mx


----------



## Clapham Omnibus (Dec 9, 2002)

*To a Job Well Done*

Cheers Brian for a job well done,

Brixton could have been a very volatile place. But both you and your officers averted on many occasions confrontation.

That is not to say that when a firm hand was needed it was missing.

Your diplomatic approach not only gained the respect of a troubled community but I think the country, police forces and urban communities further afield.

It gets my gripe that some of the posters on this thread have put their typing fingers to work before the have engaged their brains.

Somehow I do not think we have heard the last of Brian Paddick.

Good luck in your career with best wishes and thanks.

Ps Now if you can get the 156 bus service in shape you may make the new years honours list next year


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2002)

*Respect to L4P*



> _Originally posted by grubby local _
> *a general  . *


(Hi Grubby).  I've been off the boards for a few days and I need an aspirin after reading through all this!   

AHEM. I want to say this (sorry if it has already been said and I missed it among the screeds of abuse) :  Absolutely top respect to those people who put so much time, money and effort into the* lambeth4paddick *campaign -- especially *Peter Matisse*, who has been amazing.  Hats off to you all for not being cynical, sneering gits and for working so hard for something you really believed in. Things have not turned out as we would have wanted but that does not detract from  your achievement.


----------



## Friz (Dec 9, 2002)

I wonder if Mr Paddick could provide answers to some questions that have been bothering me. 

Did reported crime drop during his tenure at Brixton?
Were there less instances of public disorder?
Did the police find witnesess more willing to co-operate in 
investigations?

My point is that if as a result of his more liberal regime some of these matters came about then he can claim success. Scotland Yard could adopt the same policies in other areas. It may well be a useful tool to move the government towards the legalisation of soft drugs. A positive response from his creative policy.

Are not Police Commanders judged like all other workers and managers on results not popularity?


----------



## pooka (Dec 9, 2002)

Friz: You can find data relating to the period of the cannabis trial here.

You can find data for Lambeth Street Crime (street crime is often used as a barometer) here 

Alternatively, you can visit the Met's website. There are more statistics than you can shake a stick at and you can do your own analysis!


----------



## Eddie E (Dec 9, 2002)

You could, of course, visit here and change the organisation more quickly from the inside    .................     go on! go on! go on!

Regards

Eddie E
(ducks and apologises quickly as Met recruitment may not be an U75 priority!)
(Edited to add apology)


----------



## Friz (Dec 9, 2002)

Thanks Pooka, useful links.
communication is great!


----------



## newbie (Dec 9, 2002)

Brian meets Michael Buerk on The Choice, R4 9am & 9.30pm tomorrow


----------



## h0ax (Dec 10, 2002)

Icepick once claimed here that he had a relative killed in police custody... the post was hastily deleted but I wonder if that has any bearing on the vehemence of his posts... if it's true of course...

Brian, I never met you, although there have been many, many things I have done in Lambeth over the years that you could have sent me down for, some of them pretty tasty too, but if you were genuinely looking into reducing the sentences for victimless crime like pill popping or smoking a bit of wacky-baccy and concentrating on the armed gangs running thousands of pounds a week then you have nothing but my respect.

The treatment you got in the press was shitty to begin with, but I think after a while people were "so what?" and more supportive... 

There's nobody these days who hasn't been in the presence of a spliff at some time or another. 

It's about time this country grew up, and the powers that be find the time to bring our licensing laws up to scratch with Europe, a 3am drink-up time, then perhaps there wouldn't be so many people doing drugs - the community would benefit and the tax returns too would pay for more late nights in the Mayfair bars for those who make the rules.

The law is an ass. This matter proves it irrefutably.

I find it such a shame, that the people who choose to accuse and stereotype are the last people to provide an alternative solution.

This includes Icepick and the Daily Mail.

Anyway Brian, I thought your ex-boyfriend Rollenau or whatever his name was acted like a complete cunt, so I fear I might have to smack him in the face if ever I see him, which although against the law would surely be a crime worth turning a blind eye to... a bit like the spliffs, eh?



Be lucky.


----------



## Jessiedog (Dec 10, 2002)

Eddie,

I checked the link, but there was nothing about K9 recruitment.

 

 

Woof


----------



## Brian (Dec 10, 2002)

Jessiedog, I think you're wonderful!


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jessiedog _
> *Eddie,
> 
> I checked the link, but there was nothing about K9 recruitment.
> ...



bloody right, Jess, the Met is doggist.


----------



## Eddie E (Dec 10, 2002)

Grrrrrrrrrrrr! I've taught myself to keep posting him/her and he/she but keep forgetting to allow for Jessiedog.
The Met, however, is better at this than me.

Jessiedog,

Especially for you, please join, Go on! go on! Go on!   .....    your door is through here with more details than are given to human applicants.
For example no human would face advertising paragraphs like those available through the 'Breeding' link ...............  Stud Dogs, Brood Bitches and Artificial Insemination!!!!!

You live in a challenging world, Jessiedog!

Regards
Eddie

P.S. does this one  make your day?


----------



## WHSpliff.net (Dec 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Friz _
> *Brian Paddicks claim to fame seems to centre around the softly softly approach in offences involving the possession of cannabis. This seems of course to have been a popular move locally but coppers are not employed to be popular they exist to enforce the law. It is the job of Parliament to decide if the possession of cannabis should be lawful or not.*



Above you suggest that the 'Lambeth Experiment’ was down to just Brian - and it should have been down to Parliament, yet below you claim the Home Office (servants of Parliament) used him as a 'front man'  



> _Originally posted by Friz _
> * Paddick could never have carried out his experiments in Lambeth without prior authorisation from the Home Office. They used him as a front man ....*



The 'Lambeth Experiment’  was run with full approval from both Scotland Yard & the Home Office, that is of public record - no question of Brian being used.



> _Originally posted by Friz _
> *My point is that if as a result of his more liberal regime some of these matters came about then he can claim success. Scotland Yard could adopt the same policies in other areas. It may well be a useful tool to move the government towards the legalisation of soft drugs.*



The point being that the 'Lambeth Experiment’  was one of the considerations in respect of the re-classification of cannabis, together with the Home Affiars Select Committee report and the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs' report.

It was a 'government sponsored' experiment, which will be rolled out across the country next year - or don't you read the news?



> As a result of the ‘Lambeth Experiment’, in which police ceased arresting people for cannabis possession, levels of street crime have been cut by 35 per cent and burglaries by more than 8 per cent.
> 
> The scheme has not transformed the district into a haven of drug dealing, as critics have claimed, however class A drug arrests increased substantially - 159 compared with 96 for both cannabis & class A drugs, in a similar period last year.
> 
> ** Metropolitan Police report (March 2002)



Total respect to all 'thinking' coppers, and inrespect of drugs - extra respect to both Brian & Eddie!

And to those that made personal attacks on the editor - if you don't like him/his site - why not fuck off & set-up your own?


----------



## LDR (Dec 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fudgefactorfive _
> *
> 
> This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. It's like saying that we can never have a gay prime minister because it would get other members of the Labour Party into trouble. *



Exactly - It sounds like a cop out.  Pardon the pun.


----------



## dr256 (Dec 10, 2002)

I dunno whether to be sad that we've lost a fight, or pissed off that we're giving up.

While I realise this is someone life we all talking abou about it seems really that fucked up that for the first time in living history a community get behind the cops and media sticks it nose in, the head coppers panic at the thought of scandel and the world once again ends up putting it's head in the sand.

I'll respect Mr Paddick's decision to bow out, like I said it is his life. 
But I'll never respect the police authority again, I reallly don't see how the OPINION of a single newspaper should make any difference. Surely the opinions of the people of lambeth and in particular, brixton, are the voices that matter, not some jumped up arse of a rag.

Very very fucked up.


----------



## free spirit (Dec 10, 2002)

<not entering into the arguements, and not brixton resident or even close>

Brian you have my respect as a high ranking police officer who was actually prepared to engage the community (and others) in debate on issues that virtually everyone else had been shamefully ducking for far too long.

I know good people who've done time for canabis, and exstacy (I know that pills weren't part of the official agenda, but i lived in hope that a sensible policy may follow) and had their lives fucked up for no good reason. I had a good mate who died form heroin leaving a pregnant girl friend to bring up their kid alone. He got hooked on heroin in prison... The drugs laws are so blatently wrong, and undoubtedly part of the problem rather than the solution... I applaude anyone who has the courage to put their neck on the line to try to affect change for the better.

I'm sorry you got fucked over, but I reckon you probably had a fair idea what you might be getting yourself in for - so respect to you for not bowing under the pressure. Good luck for the future, for what it's worth I agree that you're likely to be able to have a more positive influence from the inside than from the outside. Don't let the bastards grind you down 

Just out of interest where are you being moved to? Someone earlier mentioned you are going over to police intelligence - is this right? If so maybe it will be the first time that the 2 words weren't an anachronism, I just hope that you still retain the ability to use your intelligence to prioritise etc. Have a good laugh at my file for me won't you - I'm the one who got his police photo taken with Reclaim The Streets sunburnt into my face


----------



## Jessiedog (Dec 10, 2002)

Thanks Brian  .

And thanks for the links Eddie.

Mind you, forget about the Artificial Insemination Unit. If that "Sharne" has got anything to do with it, I think prefer the sound of:



> maiden bitches are always put to a proven stud dog.



 

Woofata Woof WOOF


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by free spirit _
> *- I'm the one who got his police photo taken with Reclaim The Streets sunburnt into my face *


HTF did you manage THAT??


----------



## Friz (Dec 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WHSpliff.net _
> *
> 
> It was a 'government sponsored' experiment, which will be rolled out across the country next year - or don't you read the news?
> ...


----------



## Peter Matisse (Dec 10, 2002)

Thanks for your kind words IntoStella but I was just one of the people who kept lambeth4paddick running. Pooka, ATS, and the redoubtable Mrs M, all did just as much as I, and put just as much as I did into the campaign. 

Before that Hatboy, The Green Party, and the Big Issue organised a petition of 5,000 signatures, and Mrs M was involved in that also. Not to mention all the help we had from the people on this site. 

Most of all the thing that kept us all going was the support we had from people in Lambeth. I have lived here for many years and I think the people in Lambeth are some of the finest in the world. 

From all of us involved in the campaign a big thank you.


----------



## Bond (Dec 10, 2002)

Yep the best Commander Lambeth had. 

Peter Matisse, Pooka, ATS, Hatboy and Mrs M you all did a great job with the campaigning and everything else.


----------



## Peter Matisse (Dec 10, 2002)

I have been reading on this thread some people expressing views that seem to be saying that Brian Paddick should have expected what happened to him, because he pushed the envelope. 

That type of view is so outrageous it makes me bloody angry! Brian put his neck on the block to make the streets safer for all of us who live and work in Lambeth. And is the price he had to pay for that, namely having his private life dragged through the tabloids, having lies told about him, having other homophobic police officers working against him, losing the job he loved and always wanted, justified!  Not to mention the effect this has had on him, his family and his friends! 

Do some of you idiots not realise this is the 21st Century!  We need inovative and courageous people to provide radical solutions to the problems that we have today. We need politians with guts and foresight unafraid of the gutter press. But most of all we need ordinary people to understand that they can make a difference. It is apathy that allows so much to go unchallenged!

Rubbish like the Daily Mail only exists because we continue to buy it, second rate people only stay in power, and continue to effect out lives, because we cannot be bothered to do any thing about it. 

When somebody like Brian Paddick comes along you should cheer! The forces that were ranged against him are exactly the forces that should be dismantled.  Those who only want a narrow, repressed, patrician and patronising agenda, in which ordinary people are treated with contempt.  

Brian is unafraid to communicate with people using all the ways that people today communicate, including the internet, and why not! Not all police officers are like Brian, and not all police officers are racist, sexist, homophobic thugs. It is only the intellectually moribund that cannot move out of their bunkers of dogma. 

Well they may have got away with that a hundred years ago but not today.


----------



## exosculate (Dec 10, 2002)

Blimey - this has become a heated thread (and the other thread too).

I would like to add my thoughts, though Im not from Brixton, im not sure whether that matters though but forgive me if it does.

The beginning of this thread did appear like a major ass-kissing festival. I am always slightly wary of such things. If i see a group of people wandering in one direction I have a gut feeling to walk the opposite way anyhow.

Perhaps Icepick has taken the advice of Nietzsche

  " To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task"

Isn't it important for some people to question what they percieve as a herd like approach in a given situation?

I have to say I agree with Icepick that the police fulfill a dual role within society. But perhaps I am more pragmatic. I realise that we are stuck at present with the system we have got. By all accounts this Brian bloke does seem a better choice to have lead the police in Brixton than any other senior police officer I have ever heard of. I also quite like Tony Benn but it did not encourage me to like the House of Commons. Of course individuals have significance but institutions do even more so im my view. Individuals can help change institutions but is the institution itself that must change in order to achieve progress. I think Brians failure in this respect speaks volumes for why the institutional aspect to police culture is so fundamental.

In essence Icepick I find myself in agreement with you, although I think you really do downplay the importance of the individual to ram home your point.


----------



## hatboy (Dec 11, 2002)

There's quite afew people here saying they liked the man and his ideas but not the institution. I thought that was what I was saying all along.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 11, 2002)

Brian - good luck with your next job and as they say in Japan, gambatte kudasai.

Apologies for the multiple posts - the hazard of trying to "chat" when you're the only one online. Where are all the other nightcrawlers?



> _Originally posted by Friz _
> *The job of a police officer is to defend and serve the community in the detection and prevention of crime and the preservation of public order. The police operate most effectively as a body, not as individuals. The raising of any particular individuals personal profile for whatever motive is at best a distraction and at worse an obstruction. Lambeth is no different to any other inner city borough. The social problems are equal. Brian Paddicks claim to fame seems to centre around the softly softly approach in offences involving the possession of cannabis. This seems of course to have been a popular move locally but coppers are not employed to be popular they exist to enforce the law. It is the job of Parliament to decide if the possession of cannabis should be lawful or not. When laws are in place they should be enforced otherwise you risk the law appearing an ass. In a calculated move to attract publicity and raise his personal profile Paddick brought about his own demise. History shows this usually to be the end result. He did not lose his job through homophobia he was removed because he was seen in the public eye to condone criminal offences both in his professional and private life. This I am sure was not the case in reality. However because he chose to raise his own profile beyond what is normal for a police officer he has paid a price. Anything else is just sentimental nonsense *



Two words to you: Simon Foy

And if you don't know what I'm talking about you also don't know what you're talking about, which you patently don't.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by icepick _
> *Well I suppose if he lets off some stoners then you lot don't really care how many people his cops kills or how many kids he locks up for shoplifting/crack or whatever...Oh yeah but crackheads are surplus  *


So how many would that be then icepick? Do you actually know anything about the Lambeth police or are you just talking 'generally'? Do you know about what the local approach to crack is?

edit: also could someone post a link to info that tells us about these three deaths in police custody. Who, when, where and how? Specifically re. the date Brian Paddick was appointed and was 'suspended'.



> _Originally posted by icepick _*For starters, legalise all drugs, provide free on the NHS for those who need them, provide housing for everyone by using the empty ones, higher minimum wage, bring unemployment benefit up to a standard to provide a decent living (not gonna be much left crime now is there?), build another tube station in Streatham so Brixton's not so fucking crowded every morning, put in another travelcard machine, let all of the nonviolent prisoners out of brixton prison, pay the firefighters + public service workers a decent wage, put the cops under democratic control of the community and forbid them from breaking strikes.*


hehehehe you've been reading the Green Party manifesto. Sure you're not an undercover greenie?


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fudgefactorfive _
> *Question for people that don't live in Brixton: does anyone else find this constant reference to "the Brixton community" and the constant refrain of "Do you live here? If not, what do you know about it?" that comes from Brixtonians when asked critical questions from non-Brixtonians, just a little bit spooky? *


Not when the whole discussion is about policing in Lambeth. Obviously if the discussion was about whether the teletubbies was any good then it would be disturbing.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 11, 2002)

*What a load of shit!*



> _Originally posted by elia canetti _
> *Hi Brian
> 
> I've lived in Brixton for 21 years, and l'll let you into a little secret.
> ...



Is this another wonderful WOMBLES message of seasonal goodwill to all, along with the forthcoming 'proletarian shoplifting' on Oxford Street on 21st December?  And is this the mad, bad & dangerous to know elia or the nice, intelligent one? (The voices! The voices!) 



> _Originally posted by elia canetti _*Maybe the Green Party/ legalise Canabis people liked Brian because it allowed them to set-up there little rackets in brixton?*


And what about the Button Factory? And where the hell is your current Womble HQ radical diary anyway?

Do you really want to know the secret why the Green Party Drugs Group et al have been left alone? Its because they aren't actually doing anything to hurt anyone or inciting people to smash up property or attack the police. The Lambeth Green Party has been in existence long before Brian Paddick came on the scene (well this time round - I don't know about 1980).


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solano _*In ancient Rome the forum was the area in the middle of the town for public business.
> 
> This is the 'Brixton Forum'? *


Unless things have changed since I lived there last, The Brixton Forum is run by Jo Negrini. Or do you mean the Lambeth Police Consultative Group? But this is the nearest online equivalent.



> I seriously doubt the validity and franchise of the self-proclaimed 'Brixton community' eveident on these boards. Where are the black people of Brixton represented here? The working class? The huge number of yuppie scum who are buying up flats at the rate of knots, sending long-time Brixtonians down the A23 to Streatham, Norbury and West Croydon? The white flight from Brixton to Carshalton and Sutton?
> 
> What about John Major?
> 
> The half-dozen internet-using web-design types who *currently* reside in Brixton do not constitute a 'community'.


You can't tell what someone's race/ethnicity/nationality is from their sig surely? A lot of kids get internet access from school. And you said first that the yuppies are moving in then later that there is 'white flight' - make up your mind. Lambeth is a big place - Brian Paddick was Borough Commander of *Lambeth* stretching all the way from Waterloo to Streatham South and encompasses both some really grim estates and some really posh areas also, sometimes side by side. Hey we've even got MI5!


----------



## Beach Bum (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Peter Matisse _
> *
> 
> That type of view is so outrageous it makes me bloody angry!
> ...



Peter, you're so hot when you're angry. I think I need a cold shower.

You go, girl!!!


----------



## editor (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *There's quite afew people here saying they liked the man and his ideas but not the institution. I thought that was what I was saying all along. *


Indeed. 

But it seems that some people are so weighed down with dogma and class hate that they can't separate the two or even acknowledge an individual for his individual efforts to improve things for the community.

But I'm getting more than a little fed up with all these pathetic anonymous snipes that my support of Paddick's initiatives in Lambeth add up to me being some sort of 'cop lover'.

I'll remind posters that I've always taken every opportunity to heavily criticise the police when they've been out of order (see: endless reports on this site, my rant on the BBC at Mayday 2001 etc)

For fuck's sake, I even started an *entire* campaign single-handed when I saw how certain police were abusing their powers (see: Football Fans Against the Criminal Justice Act  )

But maybe it's easier to trot out personal insults, blatant lies and preach simplistic hate than to actually deal with the issues and come up with viable, pragmatic alternatives that stand the remotest chance of making a real difference.

I'll take a positive 'do-er' like Paddick over a negative, lazy dreamer any day.

Talk is cheap, you see....


----------



## LDR (Dec 11, 2002)

After all the good communciation that Brian did, what was actually achieved?


----------



## freethepeeps (Dec 11, 2002)

> Talk is cheap, you see....



Indeed, on U75 its free!


----------



## Vixiha (Dec 11, 2002)

Some people enjoy defaming public figures without regard of truth or reason; it makes them feel bigger, I guess.

I wonder if they're aware of the term 'libel'.


----------



## blamblam (Dec 11, 2002)

*Re: What a load of shit!*



> _Originally posted by TeeJay _
> *Do you really want to know the secret why the Green Party Drugs Group et al have been left alone? Its because they aren't actually doing anything to hurt anyone or inciting people to smash up property or attack the police. *


Oh yes the lovely Green Party. Never done anything to hurt anyone.

Except of course in every country where they've got into power, when they've entusiastically backed the war on Afghanistan and loads of other crap. Hmmm some pattern seems to be emerging...

And is all that stuff really in their manifesto? Cos not only do we need another ticket machine but they've gotta fix the fucking 7-day ticket one which has been broken for days 

And ed I wonder if oyu could point out the "dogma" and "class hatred" I'm preaching here. As I recall I haven't made many political points, just amusement at the habitual Brian £90k-a-year arse-licking sessions which occur every time his name is mentioned!

And oooh vixiha good point! You should get a talk show or something


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 11, 2002)

rabbit


----------



## Friz (Dec 11, 2002)

There seems to be an attitude of mind from some people who contribute to this thread that unless you live in Brixton you cannot possibly understand the truth of Paddick's activities and the problems that beset Lambeth. Silly. The inner city areas of French cities have exactly the same problems but have utterly different methods of trying to solve them from Brians credo.
I thought the point of constructive debate was to advance understanding or am I being a utopian troll, whatever that is!


----------



## pooka (Dec 11, 2002)

Isn't it in France that the gendarmerie are going to have their uniforms redesigned (out goes the De Gaulle headgear) and to be taught some common courtesy by expensive consultants?


----------



## exosculate (Dec 11, 2002)

Do I sense a bit of geographic rivalry here.


----------



## GaryJenkins (Dec 11, 2002)

> Hey we've even got MI5!



Isn't it MI6 who live in the Egyptian-style building on the south side of Vauxhall Bridge?   I think that MI5 are across in Westminster in Thames House, on the north side of Lambeth Bridge.


----------



## dormouse (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Friz _
> *There seems to be an attitude of mind from some people who contribute to this thread that unless you live in Brixton you cannot possibly understand the truth of Paddick's activities and the problems that beset Lambeth. Silly. The inner city areas of French cities have exactly the same problems but have utterly different methods of trying to solve them from Brians credo.
> I thought the point of constructive debate was to advance understanding or am I being a utopian troll, whatever that is! *



Not exactly but surely those who see the results of his policy - or his removal - directly every day when they walk to or from the tube station or whatever have a rather more meaningful input to the debate than the rest of us?  I mean most of us can pop in to the website when we feel like it and have a nice cosy discussion on the pros and cons of this policy or that, but living with the results is a different matter.  This is the real world and people in Brixton live in it and they wanted Brian back.  Why?  Because he made life better for them.  Which was his job and his ambition.

(Sorry for any incoherence - it's Christmas.  You should have seen this before I checked the spelling!)


----------



## editor (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by freethepeeps _
> *
> 
> Indeed, on U75 its free!
> ...


Not quite true if you're the owner 

And if the moderator's started charging for their time here, there'd be a handsome price to pay!


----------



## Brian (Dec 11, 2002)

'Hardtalk' News 24 4:30am and 10:30pm tomorrow, Friday 12th.

Overseas viewers, BBC World TV 03:30, 08:30, 11:30, 15:30, 18:30 23:30 GMT Friday 12th.  I have not seen it but I was not very happy with the way it went.  It was an experience!  All about Lambeth and the cannabis, my ex and losing my job.  If you enjoy seeing someone suffer, this is for you!


----------



## exosculate (Dec 11, 2002)

> Indeed, on U75 its free!



Free at the point of delivery......perhaps ?


----------



## free spirit (Dec 11, 2002)

> I have been reading on this thread some people expressing views that seem to be saying that Brian Paddick should have expected what happened to him, because he pushed the envelope.
> 
> That type of view is so outrageous it makes me bloody angry! Brian put his neck on the block to make the streets safer for all of us who live and work in Lambeth. And is the price he had to pay for that, namely having his private life dragged through the tabloids, having lies told about him, having other homophobic police officers working against him, losing the job he loved and always wanted, justified! Not to mention the effect this has had on him, his family and his friends!



not sure if this was aimed at me or not (probably others i hope) but just to reiterate my point on this which was that IMO Brian must have had an inkling of the flak he'd have to take for spearheading this initiative, and that being the case, I respect him all the more for not bottling out of it and following through with a what he believed was the right policy. We need many more people like brian who are prepared to make a stand despite the potential consequences

IntoStella





> quote:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally posted by free spirit
> - I'm the one who got his police photo taken with Reclaim The Streets sunburnt into my face
> ...



er well it was like this you see... one fine mayday morning I was walking through parliament square when a bunch of no good hippy layabouts tickled me to the floor and used face paint to write reclaim the streets on my face. It being a sunny day I decided to stick around in the fresh air (for some reason the cars seemed to have vanished) and dance to some samba band, hang a few flower pots from trees  / lamposts etc. later on I took a wander up to traf square (it being on the tourist trail etc.) and soon found myself trapped in by several rows of the dastardly masked up, padded, shield and weapon carrying anarchists (well i presume that's what they were, they seemed to match the tabloid description anyway). After a few hours stuck in traf square I got a bit bored and decided to partake in a game of sitting in front of these masked up anachists, and trying to persuade them of the fact that they really should just let people go coz it was bound to be illegal to keep thousands of us prisoner for hours on end for no reason - i presumed the police would be along shortly to arrest these anarchists and free us all. Anyway, it got to a point where they'd herded way too many people into far too small a space (me being an experienced event organiser I have a certain level of understanding of crowd control, overcrowding and the dangers of people getting trampled to death when the anarchists made periodic charges into the crowd). So I decided this was getting silly and I'd just sit there and not move any further - at which point 2 of the anarchists grabbed me and with assistance of 6 more anarchists (me being a wriggly little fucker), managed to wrestle me to the ground kneel on me for ages, fracture my arm, break my glasses and put me in quick cuffs. It was at this point that i realised my mistake - the anarchists who'd been illegally imprisoning us and periodically beating a few people were actually the police and to my surprise i found that the lovely fluffy people i'd been trapped with were actually the nasty vicious anarchist i'd been warned about 

yeah, anyway to cut a long story slightly less long, i tried to rub the face paint off my face before the photo, only to find that it was uv resistant and all the rest of my face was properly sun burnt apart from the reclaim the streets bit which was bright white... so my police record has me with reclaim the streets emblazoned all over my face 

<oh yeah Brian, how come it took 8 of your nice boys and girls to arrest little old me - you maybe need to revise your wriggle resistance training procedures Also if i managed an event is a way that enforced that amount of dangerous over crowding I'd be in court like a shot - did you lot learn nothing from hillsborough? - diversion over, back to the thread... i still think you're cool btw>


----------



## Peter Matisse (Dec 11, 2002)

free spirit, no it was not aimed at you, I understood your point of view.


----------



## Peter Matisse (Dec 11, 2002)

Brian re Hardtalk; tomorrow is Thursday 12th, your post says the programme goes out on Friday 12th.

It's also repeated on BBC2 on Saturday mornings at 9.10 am.


----------



## Friz (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by dormouse2 _
> *
> 
> Not exactly but surely those who see the results of his policy - or his removal - directly every day when they walk to or from the tube station or whatever have a rather more meaningful input to the debate than the rest of us?  I mean most of us can pop in to the website when we feel like it and have a nice cosy discussion on the pros and cons of this policy or that, but living with the results is a different matter.  This is the real world and people in Brixton live in it and they wanted Brian back.  Why?  Because he made life better for them.  Which was his job and his ambition.
> ...



Wow! do you really feel a difference now Brian has gone? Can one cop really make such a difference? I am not sure where fact and fantasy begin and end here. I have sought some truth in these dialogs but I'm beginning to suspect a hidden agenda in this fawing support of Brian. Yes, of course support the legalisation of drugs, it's common sense. Do not layer an issue disguised as support for some ambitious copper. It devalues the real point.


----------



## Brian (Dec 11, 2002)

I told you it was a traumatic experience, I do not know what day it is anymore.    It is tomorrow Thursday 12th!  Thanks Peter.  (I think I got confused by trying to work out what day it was in Australia...hope that's cleared that up!)


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brian _
> *'Hardtalk' News 24 4:30am and 10:30pm tomorrow, Friday 12th.
> 
> If you enjoy seeing someone suffer, this is for you! *



Poor you! I am sure you did well, wish I could hear the whole of that R4 slot...... I was on school run! Is the Hardtalk interview on for one hour?


----------



## hatboy (Dec 11, 2002)

God I've been thru this shit with so many people so many times I really can't be bothered to go back and explain it all again from the start just for people like icepick.

I've countered all you "all cops are bastards" lot: 

Fawning over Brian - Not guilty!

Respecting the Met as an institution - Not guilty!

Liking one policeman in a high position in my area who tried to improve communication and trust between the community and the police - Guilty!  

Free-spirit - what does 8 police arresting you in Parliament Square have to do with the former Commander of Lambeth?

Parliament Square is in Westminster, er, not a part of Lambeth.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: What a load of shit!*



> _Originally posted by icepick _*Oh yes the lovely Green Party. Never done anything to hurt anyone.
> 
> Except of course in every country where they've got into power, when they've entusiastically backed the war on Afghanistan and loads of other crap. Hmmm some pattern seems to be emerging...
> 
> And is all that stuff really in their manifesto? Cos not only do we need another ticket machine but they've gotta fix the fucking 7-day ticket one which has been broken for days *


Much as this deserves a proper response, I'll leave it to another thread. Won't want anyone to think I'm just another politician who wants to take over everything.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 11, 2002)

Doesn't anyone know who Simon Foy is/was? (Well I'm sure Brian Paddick does, but what about the rest of you 'experts'). And why is this a big deal? Lets just say that this reflects the power of the media to 'set the agenda' even for self-professed 'alternative' types.

Also, here's the 'silver lining': 1. Who's to say Lambeth won't get another good Commander & 2. Maybe Brian Paddick will be the head of the Met one day - onwards and upwards.


----------



## Jessiedog (Dec 11, 2002)

free spirit,

A humourous, good natured and poignent post!

Blessings.

 



Brian,

Sit tight! The worst (I hope) is over.

 

Woof


----------



## ats (Dec 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TeeJay _
> *Doesn't anyone know who Simon Foy is/was? *



I remember Simon Foy - a decent enough senior copper if you didn't mind a slight New Zealand accent, and not dissimilar to many who have given out defensive expanations of police behaviour over the years.  As such, he's a good example to use to show what it is that Brian Paddick has been able to bring to Lambeth - a willingness to engage with the community in a way that senior police have never done before, and have not been doing since Paddick's suspension.

Many many people over the years have tried to persuade us that we should accept what the police are doing.  Very few have been willing to listen.  That's what makes Brian Paddick unusual - he sees the process as being a two-way one, where the police have to learn from the community as well as vice-versa.

I was very interested to hear from the Radio Four interview withMichael Buerk that the whole cannabis experiment came about because the prosecution of a young PC for dropping some confiscated dope rather than making an arrest (pretty much standard practice in Lambeth - in almost seven years of lay visiting I've never come across anyone being held in police cels for possession of cannabis) meant that PCs were stating that they were going to arrest anyone they found in possession of the slightest quantity of dope.

A lot of senior managers, in all sorts of fields, would have fudged a situation like this.  The ability to come up with a clear, decisive response to a tricky situation is what makes someone like Brian Paddick good at his job.  Something that is not, perhaps, emphasised enough in discussions of all this is that Brian was well respected by his junior officers, because they felt he suported them.  When running the lambeth4paddick stall at the Coutry Show, we were astonished to see how many police were coming in to ask for T-shirts and baseball caps.

Winning the support of the community, while maintaining the confidence of his junior officers - that's quite an achievement.  Doing it while focusing police resources on the serious crimes such as crack and guns - of course that's a major achievement.


P.S. Note to Brian:  Please, please, whatever anyone is urging, don't go into politics.  Your talents would be completely thrown away as a powerless backbencher.  If you decide to leave the police - and I'm not saying that that is necessarily an apppropriate course of action - there are much better fields for you to make your mark in.

You have decisiveness, leadership, an ability to inspire others and great humanity.  (I shall always remember seeing you break the news to a man in custody that his father had died.  You handled it with tact, sensitivity and calmness.)

Whatever you do next, you have created a yardstick against which senior police officers in Lambeth will be judged by the community.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 12, 2002)

While I support all the good work that Brian Paddick had done, the reason I raised the issue of Simon Foy is because I feel that not enough credit is being given to other 'progressive elements' within the police force. Brian Paddick didn't suddenly appear from nowhere and doesn't exist in a vacuum. If he really was one totally isolated individual he wouldn't really have made that much difference, but he isn't and so he did make a difference.

The irony is that his high visibility was a double edged sword. Locally it was a benefit in that it enabled much better police-community relations, but in the wider national context, by being so visible he became an irresistable target for media and party political point-scoring.

The question that we should ask ourselves now therefore is if we had to choose between someone with a high profile (with the benefits and problems associated with it) or someone who maybe on the surface was more 'conservative', but who was still more progressive 'behind the scenes' and 'on the ground', which would we choose?

Another thing to consider when wishing Brian Paddick well is the hope that his future career success and promotion to a senior post in the Met may inspire other young police officers to have the courage of their convictions and not be afraid to 'push the envelope' and take risks with new and pioneering approaches to policing. This also goes beyond what we would normally consider police work to encompass having an input to crime reduction policies generally.


----------



## hatboy (Dec 12, 2002)

I saw you on Hardtalk Brian. Fuck, that must have been difficult.  I thought you were impressive. Tim Sebastian was a really tough bastard from the outset and you got the whole story across* and managed to keep cool despite his clear opposing position (I know interviewers aren't supposed to take sides, but he really did seem to be against you).  

This is worth watching tonight (Thurs) at 10.30 on BBC News 24 even if you don't much like Paddick or aren't interested in him, just for the tension.  

*whole story - the interview was confined to the cannabis pilot, which wasn't your main acheivement. Your main acheivement here was dialog and developing trust IMO.

U75 didn't get a mention. But I thought that was fine. As I said earlier this thing happened in real-life Lambeth and didn't centre around U75, although U75 was definitely a part of the Paddick story.

Anyway mate, when's the film coming out?


----------



## h0ax (Dec 12, 2002)

Hardtalk is on tonight on News24 at 10.30, for those interested...


----------



## Beanis (Dec 12, 2002)

if your so liberal how come you joined the police.
i dont know all the facts, but what i do know is that if your so keen on changing things, why the hell were you in the police for 20 odd years.
I HATE THE POLICE


----------



## Masseuse (Dec 12, 2002)

God, in a few years this whole episode is going to seem so backward and bizarre.

Good luck for the future Brian.  At least those "Dark Forces" we hear so much about didn't arrange for a convenient accident.


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beanis _
> *i dont know all the facts, but ...*


...then perhaps you should research them before commenting from a position of sheer ignorance?


----------



## pooka (Dec 12, 2002)

For those of us who go to bed at night, don't have satellite and can't remember how to set the vid, the programme is available at the 
Hardtalk Webpage.


----------



## blamblam (Dec 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> *...then perhaps you should research them before commenting from a position of sheer ignorance? *


So you know everything do you?

No?

Then maybe you shouldn't comment on anything then, commenting from a position of sheer ignorance.

(Or you wouldn't just be having a go at everyone who doesn't love Brian would you?  )


----------



## editor (Dec 13, 2002)

Oh dear. I see icepick's desperate to score points!

But anyone who starts a post personally criticising someone with the foreword, "I don't know all the facts but..." deserves all they get.

The facts are so incredibly easy to find so why defend someone too lazy to look them up?

But there again, you're a bit of a fan of clueless bumbling, personal attacks,  intelligent debate-reducing sloganeering (like your chum's 'I HATE THE POLICE' squeak) and posts that are 100% content-free when it comes to offering pragmatic, real world alternatives.

And are you going to apologise for this disgraceful, disgusting, libellous remark or shall I have just to ban you instead?
It really was an unacceptable comment.


> Aw but as long as you lovely hippies get your draw without having to worry about pc plod then what does a few dead nigger matter


----------



## tarannau (Dec 13, 2002)

you are a silly little boy aren't you icepick? 

It's one thing having to reason your posts and give a persuasive argument, quite another to make a facetious comment with little understanding or experience of the overall situation.

Whilst it must be tough to mould your limited intellect around the principle that not everything in life is simply black or white, I'd ask you to try. The fact that many of us here have supported Paddick and valued his achievements, is a far cry from unreservedly loving the man and cheerleading for the police. 

The sooner you understand that the better. Not everyone has to be over-simplistic and objectionable....

(edited after Editor's post: congrats icepick - racist nastiness and cheap jibes to go with your general foolishness. Well done fuckwit)


----------



## LieGerm (Dec 13, 2002)

Brian, I heard you on a radio 4 interview the other morning and all I can say is, much respect; you have triumphed. One day your critics will see this. 

There are not many people willing to actually make a stand for their principles, and those that do are often bullied back in to being part of a mindless flock. You have inspired, and I'm sure you'll carry on being a human being with a conscience no matter what job you end up doing next.

 Best of luck, me old mucker!


----------



## ernestolynch (Dec 13, 2002)

In fairness to Icepick (huh  when has that ever been said by anyone here) I don't think he meant anything 'racist' by mentioning the word nigger. I think he had read a few of Adam Porter's posts which also make the same reference.

However I work with black kids everyday and I don't think a comment like that from some middle-class so-called anarchist is useful or relevant.

It is also out of order for him to be launching into the editor who has invested a lot of time, money and commitment into this website. You don't go around someone's house and shit on their beds.

He may be immature and just showing off a pseudo-revolutionary and radical attitude, but using the word like that should only be left to black people themselves. Adam Porter, a middle-class Jewish Englishman should not either be allowed to describe himself as a 'nigger' as he has done on several occasions.

Back to the subject - this is not a black and white case. Many many police officers join because they wish to serve their communities, not to enforce racism or capitalism. I wholeheartedly believe that if the violent Communist revolution which I dream of comes, many of the boys and girls in blue would change sides and join the people.


----------



## Eddie E (Dec 13, 2002)

Can I open a small window onto the career of policing.

Firstly there is no such a thing as an average policemen.  Each individual has a different career path, spending time on a variety of different subjects.   Each and every day of his working life he makes decisons about taking action or not taking action.
There is more than ample authority for any officer to make up his or her own mind (with a few boring exceptions) about what action to take and over my thirty years I can recall nothing I did about which I had serious misgivings or was totally opposed.

Strangely enough, during that thirty years I grew up, I learned more about some topics and in later career did many things differently to how I would have done them earier when less well informed.  Sometimes the decisions were influenced by pressures such as time, other demands and the surrounding circumstances  - and I hope I grew to take all these into account.

Similarly I recognised that some officers did things with which they agreed but I was hesitant.   They, sometimes, failed to understand exactly what motivated me to make some of my decisions.   Across all that period the number I found in the 'bastard' category were very limited and I have come across more examples pro rata in my private life than within the police.

I don't take the posted criticisms of 'police' at all personally because, more than most, I know there is no such object as 'the police'.  When criticism is directed at individuals I examine it as I would suggestions against any other private individual.   I view it exactly as I view criticism of 'the state' - I look for the wrongdoing of the individual and respond accordingly.

There will always be views about the individuals within any career but having such a career does not warrant anyone attributing any beliefs to me, I made my own mind up about a whole series of issues.  It certainly gives nobody authority to credit me with any particular political beliefs, indeed many of the political adjectives that I thought I understood over my life seem, recently, to be inaccurate and I have grave difficulty interpreting many of them.

Any organisation may have generally recognisable attributes but that is far from ensuring that the individuals within it share them all.  Do you seriously believe that everyone within any profession agrees totally with all the others.  Look at the group, career, social circle, of which you are personally part and you will immediately know that this is the truth.  The debates within policing circles make some discussed on these boards seem very minor.  There are a host of individuals with individual positions, individual beliefs and certainly individual behaviours.

During their career some policemen have an effect not only on the people with whom they deal directly but upon the development of policing.  Despite my own involvement with the legalisation debate I am strongly of the opinion that Brian's distinction was in taking the risk of communicating.   Its far less risky not to take that step.  I know such a comment condems the general communicative abilities of policing generally, but that is a view I already hold strongly.   It is changing, but ever so slowly.

Accountability is important, and that does not always mean in retrospect, which is generally the UK position.   Accountability should start before activity and that was the difference in Lambeth.   We have adequate structures to ask retrospective questions but opening the way to questioning before decision making is new - that's why Lambeth was better off.

Regards, even to Icepick
Eddie E


----------



## ernestolynch (Dec 13, 2002)

Fairplay and keep posting.


----------



## exosculate (Dec 13, 2002)

> I don't take the posted criticisms of 'police' at all personally because, more than most, I know there is no such object as 'the police'.




So the Macpherson report presumably is a load of nonsense then i.e institutional racism of 'the police' as you put it. 



> Back to the subject - this is not a black and white case. Many many police officers join because they wish to serve their communities, not to enforce racism or capitalism. I wholeheartedly believe that if the violent Communist revolution which I dream of comes, many of the boys and girls in blue would change sides and join the people.



I always knew you were capable of formulating a view of the police - they are 'workers' then I presume earnest.


----------



## ernestolynch (Dec 13, 2002)

Living in your student halls it'll take you a good few years before you know who the workers are. Go and play with icepick and the other Old Etonians. Soggy biscuit wasn't it?

BTW The 'MacPherson Report' was produced by which so-called anarchist group? So why are you placing so much emphasis on a report published by the Liberal Capitalist State? You can't have it both ways.......


----------



## exosculate (Dec 13, 2002)

Have I hurt your feelings - Im sorry. I feel you have an ego that needs a bit of deflating though. Your back to your old trick of picking on irrelevant things like

Your young/a student - actually incorrect (why worry about this eh)

When are you going to become Mr Spellchecker man ? 

Since you are a Stalinist - Im wondering how old you are - do they employ teachers in their 80's. Or are you merely a supply teacher ?


----------



## ernestolynch (Dec 13, 2002)

I completely distrust the state and all its machinations.

You take the MacPherson report (whatever that was about - tell me) as gospel. 

You also know NO coppers.

So where does your superiority complex come from - apart form your self-instilled public school attitude?


----------



## exosculate (Dec 13, 2002)

How do you know ?

1) Whether I know any 'coppers'

2) Or the type of school I attended

Are you Mystic Earnest ?


----------



## Friz (Dec 14, 2002)

The previous post from Eddie E is considered and makes the point that policemen are individuals. They are also workers in need of a job like everyone else. However the state takes the individual and mold him or her into an instrument and an enforcement tool to use on demand. Their individuality is secondary to their reason for being. 
 The Lambeth experiment was and presumably still is a policy of the state. Mr Paddick was simply the instrument that carried it out. As an individual his skills of communication are good hence his personal popularity. However the state policy has now become confused. In the minds of joe public it's Paddick's policy and Paddick that deserves the credit for it's success. 'Victories have many fathers but defeat is an orphan'. In other words the messenger has become bigger than the message. That was his mistake. Hindsight is a wonderful gift but Paddick should have anticipated his lover trying to capitalise on his high profile. The policy of state risked being discredited so the messenger had to go. Presumably his successor will be a little more careful.


----------



## Caspar Hauser (Dec 14, 2002)

I am sorry Friz but all you are doing is making general assumption. From reading your post one can see that you have no knowledge about the 'Lambeth experiment' or the way the police and the law in England works (it's different to the system in continental Europe). 
It wasn't a state policy. It was the project of one police commander trying to tackle the problems in his borough. The state adopted this policy, not the other way around.


----------



## Jessiedog (Dec 14, 2002)

My understanding of the sequence of events:

1)  Shortly before Brain took over as the Commander of Lambeth, a constable was arrested for not following procedure (the constable found a wee bit of cannabis on someone and chucked it down the drain rather than taking the person down to the shop and cautioning them (a complaint was made).

2) All the constable's colleagues told Brian that they were going to, therefore, arrest everyone they came across with even the tiniest bit of cannabis, rather than risk there careers. This sounded like madness and a waste of police time to Brian.

3) Unsure of his bosses response if he simply suggested to them his idea for the "cannabis pilot", Brian contacted a freelance journalist he new well and "flew a kite" by having the idea published in the Evening Standard.

4) The public response was generally positive and armed with this, Brian discussed the idea further with his superiors who were supportive and the pilot was subsequently (and successfully) implemeted.

5) Then, of course Brian's (ex?) partner sold his allegations to the gutter press.

So, my understanding is that the idea was Brians and was backed by his superiors.

 

Woof


----------



## Friz (Dec 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jessiedog _
> *My understanding of the sequence of events:
> 
> 1)  Shortly before Brain took over as the Commander of Lambeth, a constable was arrested for not following procedure (the constable found a wee bit of cannabis on someone and chucked it down the drain rather than taking the person down to the shop and cautioning them (a complaint was made).
> ...



Ok, lets accept this is how it happened. It still becomes a policy of the state because Brian, as a servant of the state was carrying out a policy which they specifically authorised. In any organisation where ideas are suggested by staff and later adopted become the policy of the company. My previous post is still a valid conclusion to why he was justifibly removed.


----------



## Caspar Hauser (Dec 14, 2002)

Just out of interest, because you compare the police with a company. Who do you think owns this company 'Lambeth police' or 'The Metropolitan Police'? The residence of Lambeth or London? Or are they just the costumers of these services, but who owns it then?

As for _'Victories have many fathers but defeat is an orphan'_. You know when criticism on the experiment was at its height Commissioner Sir John Stevens referred to the scheme as the 'Paddick experiment'. It only became a 'Metropolitan  Police experiment led by Commander Paddick' when it became a success.


----------



## pooka (Dec 14, 2002)

I think perhaps Friz you're imposing logic to events to fit your world view, rather than the other way round. You would do well to read through the history. The bare bones are that:

Paddick was removed from his post because of allegations bought by the Mail on Sunday;

These allegations did not amount to anything which meritted either criminal or disciplinary action of any form;

Failure to return him to his post is a capitulation to that newspaper, allowing them to dictate policing appointments.

That's the long and the short of it.


----------



## Friz (Dec 14, 2002)

The Metropolitian Police is run as a service to both the state and the public. Lambeth happens to be part of the whole. It is funded by the state through taxation. I suppose the 'customers' are in the end all taxpayers. 

You are right. The Commissioner was defending his own position. It's always someone elses fault when the shit hits the fan. Paddick knows perfectly well the rules of the game and took calculated risks. Lets get real!

It is far to simplistic a view to say Paddicks removal was a capitulation to the newspapers. Far be it from me to defend the gutter press but are they not an institution of freedom? They have an important role in the exposal of public hypocrisy and wrong doing of those in public office. They may be a sad lot but we would be worse off without them.


----------



## Caspar Hauser (Dec 14, 2002)

You have not answered my question who actually owns the service 'police'.



> _Originally posted by Friz _
> *It is far to simplistic a view to say Paddicks removal was a capitulation to the newspapers. Far be it from me to defend the gutter press but are they not an institution of freedom? They have an important role in the exposal of public hypocrisy and wrong doing of those in public office. They may be a sad lot but we would be worse off without them. *



The 'Daily Mail' as an institution of freedom?  
That's a joke, isn't it. Or have you completely lost your mind?


----------



## Friz (Dec 14, 2002)

You may consider my post as a joke but try telling that to folk who live in a country where the press are completely controlled by the dictators in power.
Yugoslavia for example when Milosovich ran things. There's a long list of countries today where the press is just a state organ.
Thing is, if you have something for long enough you regard it with contempt. Have you ever lived under in a country without freedoms? Of course the UK press abuse their position but millions buy their papers. I would rather live with that than in a country that controlled access to information.
You need to wake up to a few realities mate.


----------



## Friz (Dec 14, 2002)

Oh, and of course the police as I have said so often are a state institution. In your value judgement 'owned' but the use of English is wrong.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 14, 2002)

The Queen owns the police.


----------



## agricola (Dec 14, 2002)

st,

not any more..... burrell "owns" us now


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Friz _*You may consider my post as a joke but try telling that to folk who live in a country where the press are completely controlled by the dictators in power.Yugoslavia for example when Milosovich ran things. There's a long list of countries today where the press is just a state organ.Thing is, if you have something for long enough you regard it with contempt. Have you ever lived under in a country without freedoms? Of course the UK press abuse their position but millions buy their papers. I would rather live with that than in a country that controlled access to information.You need to wake up to a few realities mate. *



A better comparison is between America with its first amendment protection of free speech and Germany and France with their prohibition on certain forms of "hate speech". Which model of "free speech" actually delivers a more free society and prevents abuses, hatred, racially motivated violence, political and business corrupution etc etc.

Another example is the "moderation" of discussion boards on the internet. I personally find a much more intelligent and inclusive level of debate on forums which have clear rules than others which have an 'anything goes' attitude but where the whole thing either disintegrates into virtual warfare or separates into mutually exclusive ghettos of people preaching to their own little 'congregations' - be they 'right-on' or 'extremist' of some sort.

Don't think that the only way to have freedom is to follow the American model of freedom.

How does this apply to this thread? I believe that the Mail is guilty of deliberate defamation of anyone in public life they dislike for political reasons. Why? Because they know that they can't win the argument by telling the truth and setting forth intelligent arguments. They are trying to silence people and drive them out of public life, and they have a long list of victims behind them. How does this in any way make us more free?


----------



## pooka (Dec 15, 2002)

Friz; You set up a straw man in order to knock him down. You suggest that people in UK who feel that the Fourth Estate exerts undue influence per force are arguing for state control of the media. What nonsense.

In this country, we have no written constitution worth talking about. Conventionally, our freedoms our meant to be protected by a web of checks and balances. Between the crown, the judiciary, the two house of the legistlature, the press and the institutions of civil society (trades unions, professional bodies, voluntary associations and so on). 

In that context, the check against the power of the media resides in the capacity of other, democratic agents to resist the press's sectional interests, most often the interests of their proprietors, not their readers. To comment that the balance has swung too far in the media's favour is not to argue for state control, and people have every right to hold politicians to account when they behave in such craven ways. 

You also suggest that the sales figures of newspapers give legitamcy to their sectional, polictical interference. But when asked why they buy a particular newspaper, most people respond with the sports coverage, followed by the crossword, the horoscope, the TV listings, the weather. In the case of the Sun, half naked women may figure whilst the Mail specialises in lifestyle advice, such as where best to get your bikini line waxed.

You fall back on the refrain of every world weary cycnic. "Get real". Well, it's getting real that has resulted in turnouts in General Elections below 60% and in local elections below 30%. And that's where the real  risks to freedom and order lay.


----------



## Friz (Dec 15, 2002)

I think that I made it clear in previous posts that I was not defending the behaviour of the press. I tried to make a point that if you go down the road of selective censorship of the media as  in France, accountability is reduced. Political and institutional life becomes corrupted. People in power and I include the likes of Mr Paddick are less concerned that their activities will be held up to public scrutiny. Public life in France is moribund with a political elite who behave in a disgraceful and corrupt way. I think this is in no small part because of a muzzled media that is largely state controlled. 

I believe that the public have a right to know if policeman and politicians et al; behave in a hypocritical or dishonest way. Without an intrusive media how else are we to know? I accept this was not the case with Paddick and we are getting off the subject a little. However he was fully aware of the character and behaviour of his lover. He must have realised the risks he was running and how his high profile policy in Lambeth could be brought into discredit. He took those risks and paid a price that's how it should work.


----------



## Caspar Hauser (Dec 15, 2002)

Keep your thinking within the box and your head below the parapet and everything will be all right.
Never fall in love with someone, because if the relationship breaks down your ex may sell you to a newspaper with a political agenda.
But as you said that's the way it should be.
What a wonderful world.


----------



## Friz (Dec 15, 2002)

It's a question of judgement. Senior policemen and others who aspire to positions of control over society are required to have lots of it. The rest of us can live as we please.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 15, 2002)

Sorry Friz but you are compaining about a political elite and then you say there is one rule for them and another for us.

Thank God the UK is becoming less like that.

Did you know that the leader of the lib dems is presenting a leading comedy show on tv?

Do you realise that some of our best MPs are gay, balck, women, in their early 30s etc etc

"We" are taking over and becoming "them" and vice versa

You've got these 'senior policemen' coming online to urban75 and talking to us just like you or me

Are you saying all these things are bad

FFS


----------



## Friz (Dec 15, 2002)

Not at all. All those things are a positive sign that British society is dynamic. Why do you assume that because those who aspire and achieve positions of control are an elite? They just have control therefore they need perhaps a greater level of judgement than the rest of us. By definition without judgement they would be fairly useless. I believe very much in a society without elites of any description and without state control. However, as long as the status quo remains and they have contol over my life I want them to have good judgement. I believe that Paddick lacks that essential quality. I have arrived at that conclusion by an in depth study of the whole picture. I do not doubt that he did some good in Lambeth, certainly in PR. However he is just an instrument of a policy and his successors will maintain that policy if it works. Time will be the judge of that but at least the baggage of Paddick will not be around to discredit it.


----------



## newbie (Dec 15, 2002)

> as long as the status quo remains and they have contol over my life I want them to have good judgement. I believe that Paddick lacks that essential quality.




I'm with you most of the way on the role of the press, but that's too sweeping.  His judgement was thrown in to question, was examined in detail in both public and private, and he's still got his job, albeit a different position.  Essentially his judgement has been shown to be within the bounds of acceptable for someone in his position.


----------



## pooka (Dec 16, 2002)

> I have arrived at that conclusion by an in depth study of the whole picture


Erm....from France? Pomposity rarely adds weight to an arguement, Friz.


----------



## Friz (Dec 16, 2002)

Personal insults usually indicate an exausted argument.


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Friz _
> *. I believe that Paddick lacks that essential quality. I have arrived at that conclusion by an in depth study of the whole picture. I do not doubt that he did some good in Lambeth, certainly in PR. However he is just an instrument of a policy and his successors will maintain that policy if it works. *


So what would have been your real-world, pragmatic, achievable alternatives that would have created a similar amount of positive change in Lambeth and earned a similar amount of backing from the public?


----------



## Friz (Dec 16, 2002)

'Positive change' is a subjective statement. It can mean many things to many differing view points. As an example:-
I would regard change as positive if crime, particulary violent crime and street robbery were reduced. On the other hand enabling it easier for the drug pedlars to operate would be for me a negative. However this is not about me or you Editor it is about how law enforcement is effective for a whole community. I stress the word whole because appealing to minorities does not always mean the whole community. Do not confuse marshalled activism with majority community support. It's like saying the views of U75 posters reflect the feelings of the community of Lambeth. 
Police work is about effective law enforcement. With community consent and support it makes the job easier so that's desirable. However enforcement is the bottom line. That's their 'raison detre'. I believe in the legalisation of all drugs but as long as there's a law of prohibition it should be respected. Where does it end? What other laws can be disregarded because it does not suit a section of the community? Law is the last line of defence for society against chaos. W.H. Auden wrote a wonderful poem about law. The first line reads..... Law, say the gardeners, is the sun. It's worth a read. It's too long to repeat here but it makes a good point. 
Good PR usually brings support at least among some of the population so Paddick's policy achieved something there. Maybe that will continue. That's positive. I am not a policeman so I do not think it appropriate for me to suggest how to Police Lambeth. That does not disqualify me from having an opinion why Mr Paddick's removal was justified. I see no point in labouring the point.


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2002)

_"I would regard change as positive if crime, particulary violent crime and street robbery were reduced. "_ 
There was a huge reduction in street crime.

_"On the other hand enabling it easier for the drug pedlars to operate would be for me a negative."_ 
There was a large increase in arresting street dealers.

_"Do not confuse marshalled activism with majority community support"_ I was basing my opinion on the unprecedented support at public meetings, from speaking to locals, the vibe in the pubs and street markets, from the words of community leaders and from a MORI poll. 

What were you basing your opinions on?

More facts


----------



## Friz (Dec 16, 2002)

If all what you state is correct then the policy will continue.


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Friz _
> *If all what you state is correct then the policy will continue. *


No need to take my word for it - just look up the official figures!

And sadly, things didn't continue thanks to the Daily Mail who would rather dwell on tawdry muckraking, homophobic witch-hunts and paper-shifting sensationalism rather than reporting on anything positive happening in Lambeth.

Paddick should have been supported by the press and the issues debated publicly. Instead the Mail went round offering tens of thousands of pounds to publish irrelevant ancient stories from an ex-lover.

The trouble with any kind of sensible, pragmatic drug policy is that it invariably gets middle England up in a self righteous lather - and that's why we're stuck with a ludicrously botched, spineless, half-baked and backward-looking approach.

And that's why I supported someone who had the bottle to try  and get on and actually do something constructive.

If nothing else, Paddick drove the issues of cannabis decriminalisation, drug policy and community policing on to the front pages - something most activists have been unsuccessfully trying to do for years.


----------



## solano (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> *Strange how there seems to be so many posters ready to engage me on first name terms while they hide behind their anonymous log ins, isn't it?
> 
> If you want to call me my by my real name as oposed to my board name, then have the fucking bottle to include your own full name and personal details so that I can argue with you on an equal basis. *



i've been a way a while, so not had the opportunity to answer this.  
Mr editor, i have read dozens of threads on these boards where people have refered to you as Mike & you ain't batted an eyelid, i simply call you Michael and you get a big blue vain accross your forehead.  strange...

btw i'm called alan.


----------



## Friz (Dec 16, 2002)

I find it difficult to understand why the policy did not continue if it was as successful as you say. The Mail article was surely only an unwelcome distraction to the wider view.. The Home Office and The Commissioner would look very silly if they ignored an apparent solution to Lambeth's problems handed to them on a plate.

I'm just wondering if this is not perhaps all about personality. Supporting the man not the objective.


----------



## Jessiedog (Dec 16, 2002)

My understanding is that the policy is continuing and will be extended across the Met and (essentially) nationwide.

 

Woof


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solano _
> *
> 
> i've been a way a while, so not had the opportunity to answer this.
> ...


Here's the big difference, Alan. 

It's when someone 'new' shows up on these boards and immediately starts aggressively slagging me off by MY FULL NAME.

And if you can't see the difference between that and a regular poster mentioning my first name in polite conversation, I suggest you get an adult to explain it for you.

PS What's your real surname? Where do you live? Where do you work? If you're going to pretend you don't mind people making use of your personal details (even though your board profile is conspicuously empty), you'd best back it up or give up your 'argument'.


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Friz _
> *I find it difficult to understand why the policy did not continue if it was as successful as you say *


It's not me making any claims about its success, I'm just referring to the official figures.

But in stead of expecting me to do your thinking for you, why don't you look up the official figures and then try and work out why they weren't adopted nationwide?


----------



## Caspar Hauser (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Friz _
> *I find it difficult to understand why the policy did not continue if it was as successful as you say. The Mail article was surely only an unwelcome distraction to the wider view.. The Home Office and The Commissioner would look very silly if they ignored an apparent solution to Lambeth's problems handed to them on a plate.
> 
> I'm just wondering if this is not perhaps all about personality. Supporting the man not the objective. *



Are you sure you live in France and not in Utopia? 
Look, the Netherlands have the most effective drugs policy in Europe. Surveys show that they have far less problem drug users, far less drug related deaths and even far less young people who are using dope than the UK. But the UK is still not prepared to adopt the Dutch model. 
Why? 
Because the drugs issue isn't about logic. It's about ideological, political and economic interests.

As far as I understand it, the main reason for the support Paddick received from the residents was not his drugs policy but that he was prepared to talk to them and more important to listen. He was visible on the streets. He engaged with the Brixton community and didn't despise its members as so many have before. 
And that Friz is a personal quality.


----------



## Friz (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jessiedog _
> *My understanding is that the policy is continuing and will be extended across the Met and (essentially) nationwide.
> 
> 
> ...



This is also my understanding. So Paddick has taken on a pioneering role and does not need the cult of personality. Unless as a useful basis for a future career or advancement in the one he's in.


----------



## solano (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> *Here's the big difference, Alan.
> 
> It's when someone 'new' shows up on these boards and immediately starts aggressively slagging me off by MY FULL NAME.
> ...




when have i ever used your full name? or any other personal details of yours?, Never, if anyone needs to sort their shit out it's you.


----------



## agricola (Dec 16, 2002)

full name or no, you only have 55 posts and most of them are abusing someone, usually the Editor (here and that whole "nationalist wales" thread)


----------



## solano (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by agricola _
> *full name or no, you only have 55 posts and most of them are abusing someone, usually the Editor (here and that whole "nationalist wales" thread) *



what? i have never abused the editor (apart from one exchange on the thread you mention, when things got a little heated, certainly not on this thread & for the record the editor called me a liar & ignorant for not agreeing with him on the other thread) i once refered to ernest lynch as a fucking knacker (the only abuse i have ever aimed at anyone personally (that i can recall)) and i thought that was rather amusing.


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solano _
> *Never, if anyone needs to sort their shit out it's you. *


That's two personal insults in your last two posts, but I guess that's because you're still sore after making a complete and utter arse of yourself earlier in this thread.

After all, your laughable attempts to make out that people were claiming these boards to be the 'Voice of Brixton' were a scream! 

Remind me: how many dictionary definitions did you have to ignore to construct that woefully bereft, 'argument'?!

Oh, and when and where exactly did I get a "big blue vain" [sic] "accross" my forehead

(PS www.iespell.com is your friend)


----------



## hatboy (Dec 16, 2002)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jessiedog 
My understanding is that the policy is continuing and will be extended across the Met and (essentially) nationwide. 



Woof 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Me too.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 16, 2002)

ed. - with all respect for the hard work etc etc but... (at the risk of getting a bollocking or told to read the rules again)

Isn't it slightly unfair that the moderator is also a participant in the conversations being moderated? I mean its like the ref joining in the game isn't it? Couldn't you just log in with another name, so people didn't feel to intimidated about disagreeing with you?


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TeeJay _
> *ed. - with all respect for the hard work etc etc but... (at the risk of getting a bollocking or told to read the rules again)
> 
> Isn't it slightly unfair that the moderator is also a participant in the conversations being moderated? I mean its like the ref joining in the game isn't it? Couldn't you just log in with another name, so people didn't feel to intimidated about disagreeing with you? *


What the fuck?!! 

What conversations have I 'moderated'? 
Whose words have I changed? 
What posts have I edited?

The only reason why anyone should feel 'intimidated' by my posts is if they haven't got a decent argument in the first place.

And if they haven't got a decent argument, it won't just be me ripping them apart!

To blame it on being 'intimidated' by a moderator is an absolute cop out - it certainly hasn't stopped the several people who regularly slag me off here, has it?

And note - their posts were not altered in any way.


----------



## solano (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> *That's two personal insults in your last two posts, but I guess that's because you're still sore after making a complete and utter arse of yourself earlier in this thread.
> 
> After all, your laughable attempts to make out that people were claiming these boards to be the 'Voice of Brixton' were a scream!
> ...



fuck me (there you go, i just insulted myself...) i made a simple comment that the majority of those who back Paddick (on the Brixton Forum) are coming from one of the following, namely, white, middleclass, liberal, or hippy positions. i ain't got an argument it was just my obsevation.  i don't understand your point about the dictionary, i just posted some crap from the dictionary like you told me to in our last altercation, more of an in joke i thought you might of seen the funny side of.  And finally, picking on my slight dyslexia is surely the most insulting thing to do?


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solano _
> * i don't understand your point about the dictionary, i just posted some crap from the dictionary like you told me to in our last altercation, more of an in joke i thought you might of seen the funny side of.  And finally, picking on my slight dyslexia is surely the most insulting thing to do? *


Your freshly-announced dyslexia can be considerably helped by the simple addition of iespell, which would let you correct your spelling mistakes before posting.

Instead of being so dramatically 'insulted' (who's got the 'bulging blue vein' now, eh?) perhaps you should be thankful for the useful advice: it will help you immensely if you're contributing to online forums. And it's absolutely free.

I'm afraid I can't help you with your comprehension problems however, although I would suggest that a few less insults may get you a more pleasant response in the future.

PS You managed to spell 'dyslexia' correctly, which is more than I can do.


----------



## solano (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> * I'm afraid I can't help you with your comprehension problems however, although I would suggest that a few less insults may get you a more pleasant response in the future.
> *




Ditto.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> *What the fuck?!!
> 
> What conversations have I 'moderated'?
> ...


I was under the impression that you are the person who decides what is and is not an acceptible on the boards. I thought you did this by warning people about their posts and if they ignored the warning you gagged them and/or blocked their IP address. Sorry if I've got this wrong. Maybe you could refer me to the place where all this kind of stuff is all written down?


----------



## editor (Dec 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TeeJay _
> *
> I was under the impression that you are the person who decides what is and is not an acceptible on the boards. I thought you did this by warning people about their posts and if they ignored the warning you gagged them and/or blocked their IP address. Sorry if I've got this wrong. Maybe you could refer me to the place where all this kind of stuff is all written down? *


I do wish people would fucking look before engaging in knee jerk reactions and posting nonsense all over these boards

At the top of *every single forum*  there is a thread called 'Posting FAQ: please read'.  

Had you bothered to follow that simple request, you would have learnt the guidelines for posting here. 

You will note that all the guidelines are there to try and stop the boards being spammed/trolled/attacked/maliciously linked or used to promote illegal content. There is nothing about me - or the moderators - 'gagging' individuals - the only people who get booted off are ones who continually ignore these guidelines or piss off the community here.

Any more questions?


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 17, 2002)

Why don't you put in something about identifying individuals or making personal attacks on people especially where this is grossly off topic?

You could also just say that anyone attacking the editor will be booted. Its the same rules as apply to a pub - if you walk in and insult the landlord they are quite within their rights to show you the door and it's only to be expected. It doesn't mean that there isn't freedom of speech for people who behave in a reasonable and respectful manner.


----------



## editor (Dec 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TeeJay _
> *You could also just say that anyone attacking the editor will be booted.  *


So do you think I should ban Solano? 

He's dedicated some considerable effort into insulting me recently.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 17, 2002)

I think it would be a good idea to float it around as a suggested addition to the 'Posting FAQ: please read'. I'll also PM you a copy of the equivalent thingy for another forum that I use a lot and which seems to be popular. As for Solano ... hmm, I don't have all the facts - this is where you come in.


----------



## solano (Dec 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> *So do you think I should ban Solano?
> 
> He's dedicated some considerable effort into insulting me recently. *




deary me, this is all so boring, if you remember mr editor, our first 'meeting' was you lambasting me for the dreadfull crime of putting club before country (this will all seem very boring to those who are more interested in the origional points that this thread was evoking). you and a couple of other welsh football fans attacked both me and my club for the henious crime that also led to vile welsh nationalists sending death threats to a 69 yearold pensioner* (bobby robson) & you wonder why i got slightly insulting? then i make a 'jibe' at the position of this thread (can you prove me wrong?) & you take it as an attack on you & carry on & on about it.  I've got better things to do with my time than keep going toe to toe with you, i've enjoyed taking part in all the threads on u75 and have found the site enjoyable on many occasions, but it's time to call time and for me to fuck off for good.  I stand by every word i have written on these boards (especially ernestolynch being a Knacker) and my post history is there for people to make up their own minds.


Howay the Lads


*before you get all shirty & call your lawyer, i've never said that your good self was responsible for writing these fowl scribes.


Edited : the 'henious crime' was resting an injured player who is on record saying he could not play.  And editor, i never said you agreed with the actions of the letter writting scum.


----------



## editor (Dec 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solano _
> *... that also led to vile welsh nationalists sending death threats to a 69 yearold pensioner* (bobby robson) & you wonder why i got slightly insulting?  *


I didn't make any of those threats, neither did I condone them in any way - so to use that as an excuse for your personal insults is not only inaccurate, it's deeply dishonest.

Why should I should carry the can for the actions of people I don't even know?

You're welcome to keep posting here, but if you can't separate the issues from the personalities, perhaps it's best you go.


----------



## Friz (Dec 17, 2002)

I think the 'brian bows out of Brixton' thread died of natural causes.
RIP.


----------



## solano (Dec 17, 2002)

*resurrected*

editor, i've just done a search on my posts & can not find the thread we first met on (club/country) any idea where it is?


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Friz _
> *I think the 'brian bows out of Brixton' thread died of natural causes.
> RIP. *


No, it just became a wankerfest.


----------



## editor (Dec 17, 2002)

*resurrected*



> _Originally posted by solano _
> *editor, i've just done a search on my posts & can not find the thread we first met on (club/country) any idea where it is? *


Why are you still here? Didn't you just flounce off?


> I've got better things to do with my time than keep going toe to toe with you... but it's time to call time and for me to fuck off for good


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 17, 2002)

*resurrected*



> _Originally posted by solano _
> *editor, i've just done a search on my posts & can not find the thread we first met on (club/country) any idea where it is? *


If you were paying attention, twerp, you would know that old threads have to be deleted all the time to make server space. Of course, it's an outrage that anyone might have destroyed any precious examples of your deathless prose.  From your ludicrous conviction that Mike is some sort of onerous authoritarian figure, I can only assume that you are in the region of 11 or 12 years old and you just got told off for not doing your geography homework. You are being incredibly tedious.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 18, 2002)

*Re: resurrected*



> _Originally posted by IntoStella _
> *If you were paying attention, twerp, you would know that old threads have to be deleted all the time to make server space. Of course, it's an outrage that anyone might have destroyed any precious examples of your deathless prose.  From your ludicrous conviction that Mike is some sort of onerous authoritarian figure, I can only assume that you are in the region of 11 or 12 years old and you just got told off for not doing your geography homework. You are being incredibly tedious. *



and that's bitch slapping your arse


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2002)

Guess what: solano's just registered under a different name.

Some people just have no principles or honesty, do they?


----------



## newbie (Dec 18, 2002)

Can you be sure?  There have been occasions when three separate people have logged in from this IP address, two of them on the same PC.  How can you know who's sitting there pressing the keys?


----------



## solano (Dec 18, 2002)

*Re: resurrected*

i re-registered under the name 'solano's toe' (how honest is that ed?)in order to provide the below reply, i originally tried using 'solano' but was unable for some reason on my comp at home (this normally works fine, it was as if my IP had been blocked or something)

just as well i refreshed my page here at work and seen your post ed or i would have to write another reply to explain (no, please no!)



> _Originally posted by IntoStella _
> *If you were paying attention, twerp, you would know that old threads have to be deleted all the time to make server space. Of course, it's an outrage that anyone might have destroyed any precious examples of your deathless prose.  From your ludicrous conviction that Mike is some sort of onerous authoritarian figure, I can only assume that you are in the region of 11 or 12 years old and you just got told off for not doing your geography homework. You are being incredibly tedious. *



no need to get your knickers in a twist, i'm well aware of the fact old threads are deleated for space, i just thought for nostalgic reasons i would re-read the above mentioned thread before i flounced off for good.  despite it only being 2/3 weeks old It just came as a slight suprise that there is no history of it in my own post logs, despite posts from months ago being there (including references to posts long since deleted) & also no hint of it on the origional forum (despite much older threads hanging around) anyway, it's all water under the bridge now, and there are many other things of greater importance. may you all find love and true happiness. 

best wishes, 

solano
x


----------



## ernestolynch (Dec 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: resurrected*



> _Originally posted by solano _
> *may you all find love and true happiness.
> 
> best wishes,
> ...



Including me, the ............ what was it again?


----------



## BL2ALLb (Dec 18, 2002)

Cheers Brain....never met him........but it is quie rare to meet a copper with balls...............and courage...........

some very socaialist men try to change the system from within......they are far and few between.................

but they try. Which is more than most.

Hats off to you geezer........but always remember when all the power games have been done it is the lowly paid worker that wipes the bum.

Bad Karma comes to all in the end. 

Thankyou tho for communicating which most cops will do but are on their guard when they do..and the uniform is very questionale so I hope you will be quietly questioning within.

The latest unemployed figures did not include the crack heads..or socially excluded........they must also must not be forgotten....................Brian has a pension..........a lot dont.

Dont say it often ......but thanx for the learning and the progressive communication. Its not often Im nice to a man in authority. Fullstop.I crashed onto the boards because of the barrister takin us to war.


----------



## editor (Dec 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: resurrected*



> _Originally posted by solano _
> *i re-registered under the name 'solano's toe'.... *


Are we in for yet another of these 'long goodbyes' that always seem to hang around in the air like a bad smell after a poster has flounced off the site, swearing never to return?

Like I said, some posters ain't got any honesty....


----------



## BL2ALLb (Dec 19, 2002)

yeah but some have loyalty.......an old fashioned word.....and we all searching for it.


----------



## BL2ALLb (Dec 19, 2002)

Meaning .............my loyalities will lean towards Mike............whereas others lead to employment contracts..........





mike is freedom of speech and teaching that right...


coppers have killed my mates....Brian knows that..Sir Roger Birch knows that.the Home Office know that...............


but still we must try to communicate...........


and hope Justice....DECENCY ............exists.


----------



## BL2ALLb (Dec 19, 2002)

I took my kids off red meat in 88............one of my mates was the Queens Butchers....Allen & co...in 88 we discovered that CJD was going to be dangerous..................more die from legal liars..........wwho made decisions in good faith.......and leaglly slaughtered people...he as a good man.....he took on Westmisnster Council........


Dance Music in 88 was considered to be the 'Devil 's Music'.......


persucution...harrassement....

death.......


now all of a sudden it s a big export.............but many got slaughtered.


----------



## BL2ALLb (Dec 19, 2002)

That didnt come accross well..............but men make serious mistakes an it takes so fucking long to accept..............then rectify......it..............


People are struggling...old admin systems dont work and are too slow..............


Ask Brian?


----------



## fanta (Dec 20, 2002)

I confess that most times I have no idea what the fuck BL2ALLb is talking about!

Is it some sort of code?


----------



## editor (Dec 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fanta _
> *I confess that most times I have no idea what the fuck BL2ALLb is talking about! Is it some sort of code?
> *


Churchill's comments about 'an enigma
wrapped in a mystery' do rather spring to mind at times...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by editor _
> *Churchill's comments about 'an enigma
> wrapped in a mystery' do rather spring to mind at times... *




i don't know for me i have always read them more like a narrative in a david attenbourgh wild animal film kind :

and here....in the deepest darkest dephs.....ofurban75!...find the posts hard at work.....etc



edited to add museings i guess


----------



## newbie (Dec 20, 2002)

I think she's one of the most consistently interesting posters around but I'd like to know how to pronounce BL2ALLb.


----------



## Streathamite (Dec 23, 2002)

I don't know which intrigues me more - our Editor's comparison of BL2ALLB with none other than Clement Attlee-or the wierd literary symbiosis betwixt B2LALLb and our Garf


----------



## Masseuse (Dec 23, 2002)

I love BL2ALLb posts.  He sounds like a cool fella to me.

I have noticed that Garfield has gone a bit stream of consciousness lately.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 23, 2002)

me stream never i have when who why did they do that, can it be ure never it wouldn't be like that it might you know never mnd 2 days left hmmmmm


----------



## Jessiedog (Dec 23, 2002)

lol@garf

 

Woof


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 24, 2002)

So who is the new commander?


----------



## Streathamite (Dec 24, 2002)

Brian Moore - not the veteran footie commentator, a career copper with distinctly questionable "incidents"concerning his time as a junior officer in walthamstow ( I refer to the Walthamstow Officers Golf Society-look at the acronym)


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Red Jezza _
> *Brian Moore - not the veteran footie commentator, a career copper with distinctly questionable "incidents"concerning his time as a junior officer in walthamstow ( I refer to the Walthamstow Officers Golf Society-look at the acronym) *



not he of slippy stair fame ??????????


----------



## BL2ALLb (Dec 24, 2002)

talkin of apple + pairs...........dont forget to wish a merry feast for the coppers locked up..........those who strayed from the path of law and path and over indulged in temptation................locked in cells with a bit of fruit .......cold sandwiches and a packet of crisps.........and the rest that are free 

pray they dont choke on their mince pies.
Amen.


----------



## hatboy (Dec 24, 2002)

Brian Moore is leaving too now.


----------



## TeeJay (Dec 24, 2002)

OK I just want to say he fell he wasn't pushed ... oh sorry, got the wrong end of that one. What I mean is ... I think it's disgusting how urban75 have hounded this poor policeman (Brian Moore) out of his job simply because of some youthful indiscetions. Its a time to put and end to these witch hunts.


----------



## Mikee (Dec 26, 2002)

*Gutted*

Right wing  media  : simple-minded, racist, homphobic, pathetic, squibbling little xenophobic fuckwits.

Shame is though that we already knew that. 

Brian - your decision is yours alone to make of course and I have to agree with your thinking in some ways but it does kind of feel like bowing out to the superior forces of fuckwittery that abound throughout the institutions of government and the police.

True - the situation could never revert to anything close to the tolerant forward looking type vibe that was in play during your time , but I hope you can exewrcise some influence elsewhere in order to ensure that we don't end up with someone intent on undoing the progress that's been made ( what's left of it ) in the relationship between the police and the community. In  the end its the people of Lambeth who have to bite the bullet ( so to speak ) and get what they're given.

I and several others   were fortunate enough to get smeared to ~'#*! for our campaign in support of your return but at the very least it showed that you cant just put asidfe the wishes of the community - or can you. In the end they got what they wanted and we got.....????? So efectively - we achieved what? 

The buck stops with the media - anyone who thinks this has anythiing to do with anything other than their selling newspapers is somewhat mistaken, and , once again they managed to screw up a step in the direction of progress. 
Be nice if everyone could remember that next time they go to buy a paper....

I'm out for now can't formulate my sentences properly - too pissed off.

Laters


----------



## TONYSW9 (Dec 27, 2002)

*brian*

Sorry mate,when they told you that there
were great oppotunities for bent policemen in
brixton,they meant corrupt and dishonest,not
gay.


----------



## Streathamite (Dec 31, 2002)

hatboy-re your last posting. Is there any more info you can give on that? The more the better


----------



## Caspar Hauser (Dec 31, 2002)

It was in the SLP, Red Jezza. 
You can find it covered in this thread


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2019)

Great thread. Miss lots of the banned.


----------

