# Children not allowed to go to the toilet in lessons - for *any* reason.



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

No. 3 son said this to me on Friday and I didn't believe him. However No.2 son is back now and he says the same. I trust what _he_ says as he's a student councillor and stuff  Apparently it counts even if it's a double lesson.
 No.2 son has a really bad upset tummy. I kept him off on Friday just in case he was right about the toilet thing. He's not so bad now and normally I'd send him in but if he isn't allowed to go to the toilet what am I supposed to do? 

It can't be right to stop kids going to the toilet can it? If I send him in with a note saying he has an upset tummy and has to go to the loo when he needs to will they have to allow him to go?


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 12, 2011)

What fresh stupidity is this?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 12, 2011)

You have to ring the school secretary and they should be issued with a toilet pass. A lot of kids use going to the loo as a disruption/truancy thing. However, legally there are kids who MUST be allowed free access to the loo. Sometimes though they don't want kids in who have any possibility of gastric virus so you should ring the school secretary anyway in case they'd rather he stayed at home..


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jun 12, 2011)

madzone said:


> No. 3 son said this to me on Friday and I didn't believe him. However No.2 son is back now and he says the same. I trust what _he_ says as he's a student councillor and stuff  Apparently it counts even if it's a double lesson.
> No.2 son has a really bad upset tummy. I kept him off on Friday just in case he was right about the toilet thing. He's not so bad now and normally I'd send him in but if he isn't allowed to go to the toilet what am I supposed to do?
> 
> It can't be right to stop kids going to the toilet can it? If I send him in with a note saying he has an upset tummy and has to go to the loo when he needs to will they have to allow him to go?


 
Sending him in with a note seems the right thing to do. If they still refuse they are being stupid so go in and raise hell.


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

What about girls who get their periods in the middle of lessons though? They shouldn't have to explain why they need to go to the loo.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 12, 2011)

it's impossible to tell which kid really needs the loo, and which just wants to leave class for a little walk / smoke / snack / graffiti / fight / text. however, i don't know any teacher who, if presented with a note from a parent or carer saying that the student had an upset stomach (at our school it wouldn't come via the school secretary at all) would then deny them permission.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 12, 2011)

Well at my school they feel comfortable enough to have a quiet word with the teacher re periods and get permission to slip off to the loo. There are always kids who use it (going to the loo) to endlessly disrupt/roam unsupervised/vandalise/fuck off home.


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> What fresh stupidity is this?


 
Fuck knows. Last week they were having a 'swoop' on school uniform (their words) They've sent a letter home to parents of girls, saying their skirts are too short. Thing is you can only get uniform from one authorised uniform supplier in town and the skirts they sell are the ones the school are complaining about  My boy got put in an exclusion room because his blazer was ripped. They didn't have one in his size from the authorised retailer so we tried to get him one from M&S. They said he couldn't wear it. When I asked why the snippy cow who called me said 'But what if 15 or 20 children were wearing blazers from M&S?'


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 12, 2011)

I am dreading mainstream schools actually. Are they all this mad and power crazed?


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> I am dreading mainstream schools actually. Are they all this mad and power crazed?


 
Dunno. My youngest begs me to let him change schools but afaik all the local ones are just as bad.


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 12, 2011)

madzone said:


> Dunno. My youngest begs me to let him change schools but afaik all the local ones are just as bad.


 


I'm not going to be happy about all this bollocks am I? Just hoping the local schools are vaguely normal! Everyone should enjoy primary school, at least. My middle son loves going to his special school.


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well at my school they feel comfortable enough to have a quiet word with the teacher re periods and get permission to slip off to the loo. There are always kids who use it (going to the loo) to endlessly disrupt/roam unsupervised/vandalise/fuck off home.


 
I'm not sure anyone feels comfortable enough to speak out at this school. You go to assemblies etc and the teachers are looming over the silent children like dementors. It's age old that kids will use toilet breaks for stuff other than to go to the toilet, I still don't think it's acceptable to stop them going. If it was adults being denied toilet breaks at work people would have a different opinion.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Jun 12, 2011)

madzone said:


> the teachers are looming over the silent children like dementors



Oh, come off it.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 12, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well at my school they feel comfortable enough to have a quiet word with the teacher re periods and get permission to slip off to the loo. There are always kids who use it (going to the loo) to endlessly disrupt/roam unsupervised/vandalise/fuck off home.


 
yeah this.

there is, perversely as it might sound, a duty of care problem if we allow students to wander the school unsupervised, too.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 12, 2011)

Well to be honest having worked in a couple of 'power crazed' schools and a few 'let the kids be free' schools I can tell you that children are safer and better educated in the former. Also schools in the latter category tend to have very little equipment that isn't damaged or nicked.
The other thing about the former is that vulnerable children (learning disabled, autistic, gay, anxious etc etc) are happier in the former and often miserable in the other. 

They need to get the uniform purchase thing sorted though.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 12, 2011)

madzone said:


> I'm not sure anyone feels comfortable enough to speak out at this school. You go to assemblies etc and the teachers are looming over the silent children like dementors. It's age old that kids will use toilet breaks for stuff other than to go to the toilet, I still don't think it's acceptable to stop them going. If it was adults being denied toilet breaks at work people would have a different opinion.


 
and yet there are jobs where you can't just nip off to the loo. like teaching, funnily enough.  at most schools you're never asked to control your toilet needs for much longer than two hours.


it's been the rule at every school i've taught at in my career (15 years), btw.


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Oh, come off it.


 
Nope. Not joking.

Teachers have left because of what the new head is like.


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 12, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well to be honest having worked in a couple of 'power crazed' schools and a few 'let the kids be free' schools I can tell you that children are safer and better educated in the former. Also schools in the latter category tend to have very little equipment that isn't damaged or nicked.
> The other thing about the former is that vulnerable children (learning disabled, autistic, gay, anxious etc etc) are happier in the former and often miserable in the other.
> 
> They need to get the uniform purchase thing sorted though.



Yes I understand a child with special needs might need supervision of this kind, but of course then they should really be getting 1:1 support already for that.

Complete change of subject, but what happens when that support assistant needs to go to the loo themselves and have a meal break. This was always what put me off mainstream school for the  boys, as they both bolt - quickly as well.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 12, 2011)

...actually one pupil at my school that was often in trouble but I really got on with and thought our school was really 'extra' said there was no way they'd stay on in our sixth form. They turned up back at our school after a term at college begging to come back with the cry "I want to be educated, I want to learn!"


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 12, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Yes I understand a child with special needs might need supervision of this kind, but of course then they should really be getting 1:1 support already for that.


I didn't mean that, I meant bullying from other pupils and a general air of chaos (and menace sometimes). 

Also I'm not allowed to slip out to the loo when i'm  doing 1:1 (or even whole class support).


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 12, 2011)

...also if regarding rules if everyone is consistent, SEN kids know where they are and how things work and feel more secure when it's clear rather than some sort of fluid rules that are hard to fathom and change from class to class.


----------



## madamv (Jun 12, 2011)

My daughter is in year three and thats what they told us at the start of her year.


----------



## zenie (Jun 12, 2011)

Went like that when I was at Secondary school, no toilet breaks unless you had a parents note, they started locking the toilets during lessons so you had to get a key from reception. Seems fair enough tbh, we used to go and throw wet toilet roll at the ceiling or block the sinks and flood the toilets, scrawl stuff across toilet cubicles.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jun 12, 2011)

madzone said:


> Nope. Not joking.
> 
> Teachers have left because of what the new head is like.



there are always people like that thought, some people just can't handle change. doesn't really say much about the situation either way. 
also, I'm sure the school understands that the skirts are coming from the suggested retailer. Could it be that the girls are _wearing_ their skirts too short? ie getting the wrong size, altering them, or maybe _not_ actually buying them from the suggested retailer etc?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 12, 2011)

madzone said:


> Nope. Not joking.
> 
> Teachers have left because of what the new head is like.


Sounds grim. That uniform thing is out of order. Having new Head Teachers is often a make or break. Sounds like the head hasn't really got a proper handle on things and staff are scared of the new regime. most teachers are staying put in schools because of the current climate so if they're leaving, things must be bad.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 12, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Sounds grim. That uniform thing is out of order. Having new Head Teachers is often a make or break. Sounds like the head hasn't really got a proper handle on things and staff are scared of the new regime. most teachers are staying put in schools because of the current climate so if they're leaving, things must be bad.


 
we lost 22 staff last summer and there's more this year. the pressure of the academy way of doing things is vile (as is our head).


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

Miss Caphat said:


> there are always people like that thought, some people just can't handle change. doesn't really say much about the situation either way.
> also, I'm sure the school understands that the skirts are coming from the suggested retailer. Could it be that the girls are _wearing_ their skirts too short? ie getting the wrong size, altering them, or maybe _not_ actually buying them from the suggested retailer etc?


 Errr...no the school _doesn't_ understand the irony of clamping down on uniform that they say the parentshave to buy 
It's fuck all to do with people not liking change. These are good teachers who have left.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 12, 2011)

go round to the Heads house and offer her out, then when she squares up kick her in with your hobnail boots for half a fucking hour.


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Sounds grim. That uniform thing is out of order. Having new Head Teachers is often a make or break. Sounds like the head hasn't really got a proper handle on things and staff are scared of the new regime. most teachers are staying put in schools because of the current climate so if they're leaving, things must be bad.


 
The thing is he's been part of the school for years. Teachers who are leaving (including the Senco) are openly critical of him. It's like he has to make his mark at all costs.


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> go round to the Heads house and offer her out, then when she squares up kick her in with your hobnail boots for half a fucking hour.


 
It's a him so it wouldn't be a fair fight.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jun 12, 2011)

madzone said:


> Errr...no the school _doesn't_ understand the irony of clamping down on uniform that they say the parentshave to buy
> It's fuck all to do with people not liking change. These are good teachers who have left.


 
well clearly they're all evil psychopaths who want your son to poop his pants then. I'm glad we helped you discover what you already knew to be true.


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

Miss Caphat said:


> well clearly they're all evil psychopaths who want your son to poop his pants then. I'm glad we helped you discover what you already knew to be true.


 
Bit of a leap there.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jun 12, 2011)

madzone said:


> Bit of a leap there.




that was kind of the point


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

Miss Caphat said:


> that was kind of the point


 
Why's that then?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 12, 2011)

madzone said:


> It's a him so it wouldn't be a fair fight.



mmm, I can see your issue there. Organise the annoyed into funding some of those portaloo blue thunderboxes. Or encourage your children to cheerfully piss out of the classroom window seeing as toilet time is being monitered.


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> mmm, I can see your issue there. Organise the annoyed into funding some of those portaloo blue thunderboxes. Or encourage your children to cheerfully piss out of the classroom window seeing as toilet time is being monitered.


 
I wouldn't put it past my youngest to shit himself tbf.


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Jun 12, 2011)

I don't ever remember this being a problem when I was at primary school (early 80s) , nor more than a handful of people needing the loo in lesson time. 

Surely a good teacher can tell the difference between kids who need the loo and (no pun intended) those who are taking the piss?


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 12, 2011)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> I don't ever remember this being a problem when I was at primary school (early 80s) , nor more than a handful of people needing the loo in lesson time.
> 
> Surely a good teacher can tell the difference between kids who need the loo and (no pun intended) those who are taking the piss?


 
nah - kids are fucking excellent actors.

also - you leave yourself open to all kinds of hassle if you let some kid go but not the one you suspect is skiving / planning to start a fire.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 12, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> nah - kids are fucking excellent actors.
> 
> also - you leave yourself open to all kinds of hassle if you let some kid go but not the one you suspect is skiving / planning to start a fire.


 
edit - i am a good teacher, experienced too.... but i'm not a fucking psychic - what an odd idea. If anyone of any profession could tell absolutely when they were being lied to, it would revoluionise the judicial process... save a fortune.


----------



## dessiato (Jun 12, 2011)

The way that I deal with it is to tell the students that they don't have to ask, just say that they are going. Of course since the majority of my students are at university or adults it is seldom a real problem.

With my children class I ask them to wait till break, it is funny how often they then find that they don't really need to go.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 12, 2011)

Plus me and spanglechick work in a secondary. I've worked in primaries too and it's not as if major behavioural problems suddenly surface when they go from primary to secondary.


----------



## gaijingirl (Jun 12, 2011)

I agree completely with everything Spanglechick and Mrs Magpie say on this subject.  The toilets are my (secondary) school are locked during lessons and we are told not to let students go for any reason.  I'm not allowed to just walk out the classroom to use the toilet either - even if I do need to go and somehow I manage it.  I am not the world's strictest teacher and I do use my discretion, so I will allow students occasionally to go, but really I shouldn't.


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Jun 12, 2011)

I accept it's probably different in secondary....apart from anything else in primary you have the same teacher all day so he/she can quickly build up a picture of what is going on.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 12, 2011)

there do seem to be more explicit rules now, about things that before were defacto banned but not explicitly legislated against. The recent 'hugging' thread is another example.  i think it's a result of the way we now bring kids up to question authority and not to just accept 'because i said so' as an answer. it's really positi ve that young people feel more empowered than we did at school, but because lessons need to proceed and it often isn't the best teaching and learning activity to explain why you shouldn't do x, y or z (and because people who'd rather not be learning do take the opportunity to turn a simple query and explanation into a great and indignant debate) when you have a syllabus to deliver... then an explicit rule to point to means that you can point to the rule and carry on with the lesson.

then there are facilities for 'student voice'... pupil consultations, school councils and the like, where student representatives can discuss the rules in as much detail as they like. all schools have to have these now.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 12, 2011)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> I accept it's probably different in secondary....


 
ah - didn't notice you were referring to primary. little kids aren't really my forte - but i think there's also an element with young kids of advanced toilet training. learning to go when you have break so you don't get caught out later.  if they came up from primary having been allowed to piss at will, there'd be chaos the first time they had a double lesson.


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> nah - kids are fucking excellent actors.
> 
> also - you leave yourself open to all kinds of hassle if you let some kid go but not the one you suspect is skiving / planning to start a fire.


 This is a middle of nowhere, uber-middle class school not some inner city ghetto school


----------



## madzone (Jun 12, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> there do seem to be more explicit rules now, about things that before were defacto banned but not explicitly legislated against. The recent 'hugging' thread is another example.  i think it's a result of the way we now bring kids up to question authority and not to just accept 'because i said so' as an answer. it's really positi ve that young people feel more empowered than we did at school, but because lessons need to proceed and it often isn't the best teaching and learning activity to explain why you shouldn't do x, y or z (and because people who'd rather not be learning do take the opportunity to turn a simple query and explanation into a great and indignant debate) when you have a syllabus to deliver... then an explicit rule to point to means that you can point to the rule and carry on with the lesson.
> 
> then there are facilities for 'student voice'... pupil consultations, school councils and the like, where student representatives can discuss the rules in as much detail as they like. all schools have to have these now.



My middle boy is on all of those. He's having words with the headmaster all over the place. He plans to attend the next PTA meeting to discuss the toilet and uniform issues with them


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 12, 2011)

madzone said:


> This is a middle of nowhere, uber-middle class school not some inner city ghetto school


 
makes very little difference. kids skive anywhere, and behavioural issues that serious are rare, but happen, in all schools. nothing much to do with class, mostly a ESBD special needs thing.


----------



## madzone (Jun 13, 2011)

It still seems very Victorian to me. School is fucking my youngest _right _up as it did my eldest. If we behaved at home the way teachers behave in that school we'd have Children's Services coming a-knocking.


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 13, 2011)

Still think it sounds  ridiculous tbh.

ETA and all the adults saying they couldn't take a loo break... they're not kids!


----------



## madzone (Jun 13, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Still think it sounds  ridiculous tbh.
> 
> ETA and all the adults saying they couldn't take a loo break... they're not kids!


 
Exactly. People bring not being allowed to go to the toilet up on here all the time as a sign of bad working conditions and lack of workers rights but suddenly it's ok if you're a kid. If a teacher suddenly felt an explosive shit coming on what would they do? Shit themselves?


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 13, 2011)

madzone said:


> Exactly. People bring not being allowed to go to the toilet up on here all the time as a sign of bad working conditions and lack of workers rights but suddenly it's ok if you're a kid. If a teacher suddenly felt an explosive shit coming on what would they do? Shit themselves?


 
Remember the DSS staff telling me I couldn't change James, when he was dripping in poo, cos it wasn't allowed there. Perfectly ok for me to push him thru the streets in his own shit tho, he was a kid and disabled therefore ok.


----------



## Kanda (Jun 13, 2011)

How the fuck are you supposed to get through a double lesson without a fag break!!


----------



## madzone (Jun 13, 2011)

Kanda said:


> How the fuck are you supposed to get through a double lesson without a fag break!!


 
Innit. I'm sure that in itself is against some human rights or other


----------



## scifisam (Jun 13, 2011)

I've also worked in secondary schools and the 'no toilet breaks' thing is OK if it's not draconian, and if there's sufficient time to go to the loo out of lessons. One school I worked at gave the entire school five minutes to go the loo - from 1:20 to 1:25, the last five minutes of lunch break. Staff guarded the loos during all other breaks, so the only time students could go to the loo was during lessons. I have no idea how this was supposed to work. The girls were bleeding on their chairs. 

I'm generally in favour of well-defined, consistently-enforced discipline, but if the rules are so strict that the teacher either spend all their time enforcing them, or they have to circumvent them, then they're not working.


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 13, 2011)

scifisam said:


> I've also worked in secondary schools and the 'no toilet breaks' thing is OK if it's not draconian, and if there's sufficient time to go to the loo out of lessons. One school I worked at gave the entire school five minutes to go the loo - from 1:20 to 1:25, the last five minutes of lunch break. Staff guarded the loos during all other breaks, so the only time students could go to the loo was during lessons. I have no idea how this was supposed to work. The girls were bleeding on their chairs.
> 
> I'm generally in favour of well-defined, consistently-enforced discipline, but if the rules are so strict that the teacher either spend all their time enforcing them, or they have to circumvent them, then they're not working.


 
That's fucked up.


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 13, 2011)

scifisam said:


> i've also worked in secondary schools and the 'no toilet breaks' thing is ok if it's not draconian, and if there's sufficient time to go to the loo out of lessons. One school i worked at gave the entire school five minutes to go the loo - from 1:20 to 1:25, the last five minutes of lunch break. Staff guarded the loos during all other breaks, so the only time students could go to the loo was during lessons. I have no idea how this was supposed to work. The girls were bleeding on their chairs.
> 
> I'm generally in favour of well-defined, consistently-enforced discipline, but if the rules are so strict that the teacher either spend all their time enforcing them, or they have to circumvent them, then they're not working.



*w     t       f   ?*


----------



## chilango (Jun 13, 2011)

How utterly uncivilised.

I let my students go (more or less) whenever they want. I know that sometimes they're off for a fag or a chat, but when they get back they're ready to work again. Hell, I've even been known to send older kids to get themselves a coffee if they look like they need it!

Different  school cultures though innit.


----------



## Edie (Jun 13, 2011)

God I really don't want my kids to go to a school where the general discipline is so shit that they can't go for a piss if they need to. Fuck sake, it's a disgrace


----------



## TruXta (Jun 13, 2011)

Edie said:


> God I really don't want my kids to go to a school where the general discipline is so shit that they can't go for a piss if they need to. Fuck sake, it's a disgrace


 
If you send your kids to public schools they'll whip'em when they ask to go to the loo. TrU FACK


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm sure that what Sam posted must be breaching some human rights! Imagine if that was happening to old people in a home, it would be called abuse.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 13, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> You have to ring the school secretary and they should be issued with a toilet pass.


 
There's such a thing as a toilet pass?


----------



## Looby (Jun 13, 2011)

To be fair to the teachers, if I was in the loos during lessons I was generally skiving, smoking or pissing about.


----------



## madzone (Jun 13, 2011)

sparklefish said:


> To be fair to the teachers, if I was in the loos during lessons I was generally skiving, smoking or pissing about.


 
And is that such a bad thing? We behave as if kdis are wild animals sometimes...


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 13, 2011)

madzone said:


> And is that such a bad thing? We behave as if kdis are wild animals sometimes...


 
well yeah - it is. lesson time isn't for any of those things. and schools don't work very well if kids do those things instead of learning. and then you also have parents who will threaten legal action and the papers if their child falls and hits their head / has a massive asthma attack / whatever when they should've been in your class but in fact were off smoking / skiving / pissing about.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 13, 2011)

Edie said:


> God I really don't want my kids to go to a school where the general discipline is so shit that they can't go for a piss if they need to. Fuck sake, it's a disgrace


 
fuck all to do with general discipline. it's the rule in lots (most?) schools - even those with excellent discipline. but, y'know... nice way to put it all back on the teachers.


----------



## Edie (Jun 13, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> fuck all to do with general discipline. it's the rule in lots (most?) schools - even those with excellent discipline. but, y'know... nice way to put it all back on the teachers.


Do teachers not run schools?


----------



## chilango (Jun 13, 2011)

Edie said:


> Do teachers not run schools?


----------



## zenie (Jun 13, 2011)

The kids do thesedays.....and rings round their parents


----------



## madzone (Jun 13, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> well yeah - it is. lesson time isn't for any of those things. and schools don't work very well if kids do those things instead of learning. and then you also have parents who will threaten legal action and the papers if their child falls and hits their head / has a massive asthma attack / whatever when they should've been in your class but in fact were off smoking / skiving / pissing about.


 
Realistically how many kids take an opportunity to go for a skive in the loo every lesson? I'd wager it's not that many.


----------



## Sweet FA (Jun 13, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> if they came up from primary having been allowed to piss at will


(((will))) 

After practically a year with my 3/4s, I know which ones are trying it on and which ones actually need a piss. It's all training to a certain degree; we've all got to hold it sometimes so not a bad idea to get them to hang on til break/lunch if they can. 

I've got one child who after working really hard for a while _always_ needs a big dump. He's genuine about it (I've erm tested the air after he's been in ) so I'm assuming the strain he puts on his brain affects his bowels somehow


----------



## chilango (Jun 13, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> well yeah - it is. lesson time isn't for any of those things. and schools don't work very well if kids do those things instead of learning. and then you also have parents who will threaten legal action and the papers if their child falls and hits their head / has a massive asthma attack / whatever when they should've been in your class but in fact were off smoking / skiving / pissing about.


 
I'm glad I don't work in such a litigous (sp?) atmosphere.

From my pov if a kid taking 5 min out of an hour's lesson means they work more effectively for the other 55 min then that's fine with me. But I run a pretty libertarian ship in my classroom  and that works for me and my style of teaching in my subject with the kids that I have. I fully appreciate that it isn't applicable for other teachers, other subjects, other schools, other kids etc.

For me, the bottom line is we are trying give the kids the opportunity to learn, and to relish/enjoy/appreciate etc etc that learning process. Pretty much all else is subordinate to that. Or ought to be.


----------



## chilango (Jun 13, 2011)

madzone said:


> Realistically how many kids take an opportunity to go for a skive in the loo every lesson? I'd wager it's not that many.


 
...and for those that do. There's an issue that needs addressing. banning toilet breaks is probably not going to solve the problem, Just going to keep it in a classroom.


----------



## Edie (Jun 13, 2011)

chilango said:


> ...and for those that do. There's an issue that needs addressing. banning toilet breaks is probably not going to solve the problem, Just going to keep it in a classroom.


Well yer. You also seem to have a much better attitude towards the kids you teach.


----------



## chilango (Jun 13, 2011)

Edie said:


> Well yer. You also seem to have a much better attitude towards the kids you teach.



To be fair. The kids I teach have a good attitude towards me. Makes it all so much easier...


----------



## boohoo (Jun 13, 2011)

We weren't allowed to go to the loo outside of break in primary or secondary school - my friend wet herself on purpose in primary because the teacher wouldn't let her go 
Learning to use the loo at break didn't kill me! In fact, essays and learning french and PE were much harder and more painful than bladder control.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jun 13, 2011)

I've worked with kids a lot, but not in a classroom. What always used to make smile is when they asked you where the loo was and you'd point them at a wall. Obviously it takes girls and while to get used to this, but what suprised me was the number of lads who found it awkward. Then there were the ones who delighted in shitting in full site of everyone.


----------



## Looby (Jun 13, 2011)

madzone said:


> And is that such a bad thing? We behave as if kdis are wild animals sometimes...


 
I was a shit at school, craved discipline and came out with fuck all so I'm probably not the best one to ask.  I also went to the worst school in the area where most of the kids were worse than wild animals.


----------



## madzone (Jun 13, 2011)

chilango said:


> I'm glad I don't work in such a litigous (sp?) atmosphere.
> 
> From my pov if a kid taking 5 min out of an hour's lesson means they work more effectively for the other 55 min then that's fine with me. But I run a pretty libertarian ship in my classroom  and that works for me and my style of teaching in my subject with the kids that I have. I fully appreciate that it isn't applicable for other teachers, other subjects, other schools, other kids etc.
> 
> For me, the bottom line is we are trying give the kids the opportunity to learn, and to relish/enjoy/appreciate etc etc that learning process. Pretty much all else is subordinate to that. Or ought to be.


Where do you work? Got room for a bright, creative 12 yr old?


----------



## madzone (Jun 13, 2011)

sparklefish said:


> I was a shit at school, craved discipline and came out with fuck all so I'm probably not the best one to ask.  I also went to the worst school in the area where most of the kids were worse than wild animals.


 
My youngest is going to come out with fuck all just like my eldest did. There's too _much_ discipline.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Jun 13, 2011)

It's been interesting reading the teachers' perspectives actually. Particularly as I only really come across this issue when I'm working with a primary school age kid who is still weeing/soiling, and it's infuriating when you find out that the school refuses to let them go to the toilet in lessons. I think there should be more slack for primary schools kids though compared to primary school kids.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 13, 2011)

madzone said:


> Realistically how many kids take an opportunity to go for a skive in the loo every lesson? I'd wager it's not that many.



it goes in waves. most lessons no one asks. then if one person goes you get wave after wave of kid suddenly being desperate. in classes where i have let kids go, it's sometimes been as many as 10 or 12. one after the other, all lesson.



Edie said:


> Well yer. You also seem to have a much better attitude towards the kids you teach.


 
ah - i have a bad attitude? right. that's why i go out of my way to work all the hours to get the very best results for my kids at a school that has problems recruiting because of the area it's in? It makes me feel so much better after staying up til 3am last night working, and having brought home more work for tonight, to know that i've got a bad attitude.

Quite frankly, fuck you - with your arrogant assumption that you know better about how to instil discipline in a difficult school.  Fuck you entirely Edie. 

I don't think i'll bother posting on any more threads about education. Everyone's a fucking expert on teaching because they remember being at school however many years ago and because they might have kids themselves. Because of course that beats the fifteen years experience of classroom management in different schools, and all the training, and everything else. This fucking job uses you up, emotionally. and then you come home and realise that a huge number of people think you've got a bad fucking attitude because your experience tells you that kids do better when they stay in the fucking classroom.

genuinely - people wonder why teaching has such a huge fucking drop out rate? Fuck you.


----------



## madzone (Jun 13, 2011)

Seriously though Spangles, if you felt an explosive shit coming on in the middle of a lesson what would you do? Would you shit yourself?


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 13, 2011)

madzone said:


> Seriously though Spangles, if you felt an explosive shit coming on in the middle of a lesson what would you do? Would you shit yourself?


 
no - i'd have to run out - but if i had a stomach upset i already knew about, i'd take immodium. or i'd take the day off. generally though (and i have diarreah-y IBS) i just sweat through the cramps. but in your son's case he'd have a note... so there's no problem.


----------



## madzone (Jun 13, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> no - i'd have to run out - but if i had a stomach upset i already knew about, i'd take immodium. or i'd take the day off. generally though (and i have diarreah-y IBS) i just sweat through the cramps. but in your son's case he'd have a note... so there's no problem.


 
But what if it came on at school? You don't always get ill at home do you? And he took immodium and it didn't work.

Even after listening to the teachers on the thread I still feel the same as I did at the start. To me it's unacceptable to prevent children and young people from using the toilet when they need it. I wouldn't have asked to go to the toilet, I would have suffered in silence. I once sat with hydrochloric acid burning into my leg because I was too scared of the teacher to tell him I'd spilled it. I still have the scar.


----------



## innit (Jun 13, 2011)

> > Realistically how many kids take an opportunity to go for a skive in the loo every lesson? I'd wager it's not that many.
> 
> 
> <br />
> ...



Go spangles!


----------



## Sweet FA (Jun 13, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> Everyone's a fucking expert on teaching because they remember being at school however many years ago and because they might have kids themselves. Because of course that beats the fifteen years experience of classroom management in different schools, and all the training, and everything else. This fucking job uses you up, emotionally. and then you come home and realise that a huge number of people think you've got a bad fucking attitude because your experience tells you that kids do better when they stay in the fucking classroom.
> 
> genuinely - people wonder why teaching has such a huge fucking drop out rate? Fuck you.


This. In spades.


----------



## nagapie (Jun 13, 2011)

madzone said:


> Realistically how many kids take an opportunity to go for a skive in the loo every lesson? I'd wager it's not that many.



When they don't lock the toilets at my school, there are loads of kids hanging out in them during lesson time. All the kids whose teachers couldn't be arsed to argue the no toilet during lessons rule. Kids now have Blackberries, they will use any excuse to get out of class to go ping some people.


----------



## pk (Jun 13, 2011)

Now if I was a teacher there'd be no fucking mobile phones - those would be locked away from 9am until 3.30pm. Any school permitted kids to have phones on them is asking for trouble.


----------



## nagapie (Jun 13, 2011)

Our parents refused to let us ban mobile phones completely as they said the kids needed them if they needed to contact their parents. 

I do feel for some kids and parents. Schools are full of petty rules that some kids just can't adapt to. I do worry about how I'll feel when my son goes to secondary school and has to be part of what is sometimes a mindless machine. But the thing that stops school from being a total piece of shit is excellent individual teachers and the reality is that the teachers most kids love and respect are the strict ones. Obviously strict on it's own is not enough, they need to be caring and imaginative as well. But the teachers that let the kids do anything - chat, go to the toilet - are interpreted by the children as not giving a damn about them.


----------



## madzone (Jun 13, 2011)

nagapie said:


> Our parents refused to let us ban mobile phones completely as they said the kids needed them if they needed to contact their parents.
> 
> I do feel for some kids and parents. Schools are full of petty rules that some kids just can't adapt to. I do worry about how I'll feel when my son goes to secondary school and has to be part of what is sometimes a mindless machine. But the thing that stops school from being a total piece of shit is excellent individual teachers and the reality is that the teachers most kids love and respect are the strict ones. Obviously strict on it's own is not enough, they need to be caring and imaginative as well. But the teachers that let the kids do anything - chat, go to the toilet - are interpreted by the children as not giving a damn about them.



See, my kids do need their mobiles in school because there's one bus home and it's happened more than once that some teacher or other has kept people in and they've missed the bus. They're not allowed to use the school phone to call for a lift. However, they're both told that if they use their phones inappropriately then it's their own tough shit if they get them confiscated.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jun 13, 2011)

madzone said:


> See, my kids do need their mobiles in school because there's one bus home and it's happened more than once that some teacher or other has kept people in and they've missed the bus. They're not allowed to use the school phone to call for a lift. However, they're both told that if they use their phones inappropriately then it's their own tough shit if they get them confiscated.



Where is the contradiction? Don't use them in class?


----------



## madzone (Jun 13, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> Where is the contradiction? Don't use them in class?


 
What contradiction?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jun 13, 2011)

There is none


----------



## madzone (Jun 13, 2011)

Global Stoner said:


> There is none


 
SHUT UP THEN!!!!!

Go and sit outside the headmistresses office.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jun 13, 2011)

Feels sideburns nervously 

Think my hair is loose as self defense mechanism from being picked up that way in school days.


----------



## Ich bin ein Mod (Jun 13, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> it goes in waves. most lessons no one asks. then if one person goes you get wave after wave of kid suddenly being desperate. in classes where i have let kids go, it's sometimes been as many as 10 or 12. one after the other, all lesson.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
This. Every day feels like a fresh attack on teachers at the moment. What gets forgotten is that we do this job to try and do the best for the pupils. It's simple to think that you could just let a kid go to the loo during a lesson, but that doesn't take into account the disruption, even if you don't get the wave of kids trying it on afterwards. There does need to be some flexibility wrt letting pupils out during lessons, but generally I don't let pupils out and they cope pretty well.


----------



## oryx (Jun 13, 2011)

innit said:


> Go spangles!



Innit, innit?! 

'scuse the pun, but I have the greatest respect for teachers bearing in mind the shit they put up with.


----------



## zenie (Jun 13, 2011)

madzone said:


> See, my kids do need their mobiles in school because there's one bus home and it's happened more than once that some teacher or other has kept people in and they've missed the bus. They're not allowed to use the school phone to call for a lift. However, they're both told that if they use their phones inappropriately then it's their own tough shit if they get them confiscated.


 
In the days before mobiles we used a payphone


----------



## Fingers (Jun 13, 2011)

The solution to this is a unisex toilet in the corner of the classroom. This is a niche in the market I have never thought of.


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2011)

nagapie said:


> But the thing that stops school from being a total piece of shit is excellent individual teachers and the reality is that the teachers most kids love and respect are the strict ones. Obviously strict on it's own is not enough, they need to be caring and imaginative as well. But the teachers that let the kids do anything - chat, go to the toilet - are interpreted by the children as not giving a damn about them.



I can't agree with that.

"Strictness" in itself is no indicator of anything.  As you rightly say it's the caring that matters.

Instead of simply being strict, it's a matter of classroom management. Can the teacher create, and maintain, an environment where the kids learn, and enjoy/appreciate that learning?

For some teachers, in some subjects, in some schools, with some kids it may be that strictness is a way of achieving that. In other circumstances it's not.

You have to take into account the teacher's character, their teaching style, the nature of the subject (and the lesson), the syllabus, the culture of the school, the kids' learning needs and learning styles, their characters and so much more...teaching is a bloody skilled job! 

I've no problems managing a classroom and maintaining an excellent learning environment with a "freer" approach. My kids enjoy their lessons and actively want to engage with the learning. I'm lucky. I'm in a situation where the more libertarian approach can work. But it still takes hard work and skill on my part to make it work, to create that environment and that interest in what I teach. 

I fully understand that it's only one approach though and not applicable for every teacher, in every school.


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2011)

Regarding the toilet. in a previous school I knew of two colleagues who shat themselves in class  Fortunately minor incidents not spotted by the kids. I also had a colleague who took great pride in getting his first class in the morning started and then going for a 20 minute dump during the lesson.

There was a lot of toilet talk in that staffroom.


----------



## madzone (Jun 14, 2011)

I've been thinking about this in the night 

Why is education _so_ focussed on control? We seem to be so anxious to control everything they do or think all the time. This particular school has a massive problem with it. They have to be silent, all look the same to the point where you're only allowed to buy uniform from one shop. There's teachers on here saying they won't learn if they're allowed to go to the toilet when they want to. What the fuck is going on? What is it we're expecting to churn out? My middle boy is fine - in the running to be head boy - because he thrives in that kind of environment. My youngest, however, is miserable as sin. Properly depressed about what goes on., He begs me not to send him there. The difference between them is the middle boy is an academic so they all love him. My youngest is creative though. Just as intelligent as his older brother but absolutely no provision for a child like him in secondary school. Sitting still, being silent all like fucking poison to him. It's like education hasn't moved on in the last 100 years. So much for different learning styles. If you're learning style is kineasthetic how is that going to work in a classroom where you have to sit still?

And what makes it so difficult to discuss is that the minute you start to say there may be a problem with the education system's expectations of children  teachers get defensive and start bleating about how hard it is for them. No-one is saying otherwise actually. The problem is with the service not the people who deliver it. In this instance the problem is with the head. He sets the ethos of the school and he couldn't care less about individuals. He is solely focussed on control and how the school looks to outsiders. He's the one who has decided not to let the children go to the toilet at all. It was exactly the same when my eldest was at that school and he's in his 20's now. I don't know why I bother starting threads like this though because they always end up the same.


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 14, 2011)

madzone said:


> But what if it came on at school? You don't always get ill at home do you? And he took immodium and it didn't work.
> 
> Even after listening to the teachers on the thread I still feel the same as I did at the start. To me it's unacceptable to prevent children and young people from using the toilet when they need it. I wouldn't have asked to go to the toilet, I would have suffered in silence. I once sat with hydrochloric acid burning into my leg because I was too scared of the teacher to tell him I'd spilled it. I still have the scar.


 I think so as well. And I speak as someone whose both parents were teachers. Nothing a teacher ever  did could therefore be wrong. Although as Madzone says, this isn't about the teachers, but about the management at the school. They sound obsessed by making up rules for the sake of it.


----------



## katie_biscuit (Jun 14, 2011)

madzone said:


> It can't be right to stop kids going to the toilet can it? If I send him in with a note saying he has an upset tummy and has to go to the loo when he needs to will they have to allow him to go?


 
I agree that it isn't right to stop children going to the toilet, but most teachers do have a grasp of which ones are trying it on and which aren't.  I have a friend who has a daughter who gets repeated urine infections, and she needs to be allowed out during lessons if she needs the toilet, or the infections could get worse.  A urine infection isn't something you should need to be off school for, so a letter in that situation has covered the problem.

But in the case of an upset stomach I think the school might well be inclined to say that you should keep him at home because it is potentially infectious.  At my children's school they'd send them home immediately for that.


----------



## madzone (Jun 14, 2011)

katie_biscuit said:


> I agree that it isn't right to stop children going to the toilet, but most teachers do have a grasp of which ones are trying it on and which aren't.  I have a friend who has a daughter who gets repeated urine infections, and she needs to be allowed out during lessons if she needs the toilet, or the infections could get worse.  A urine infection isn't something you should need to be off school for, so a letter in that situation has covered the problem.
> 
> But in the case of an upset stomach I think the school might well be inclined to say that you should keep him at home because it is potentially infectious.  At my children's school they'd send them home immediately for that.


 
So if teachers have an inkling of who's taking the piss (pun intended) why does there need to be a blanket ban on _all _kids going to the toilet? 

And he didn't have an upset stomach when I sent him in, it came on during the day. I kept him off on Friday and Monday and they phoned yesterday and said they wanted me to send him back.


----------



## Edie (Jun 14, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> it goes in waves. most lessons no one asks. then if one person goes you get wave after wave of kid suddenly being desperate. in classes where i have let kids go, it's sometimes been as many as 10 or 12. one after the other, all lesson.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chill out FFS. Just let kids go for a piss when they want, it's just a normal human right to be able to toilet yourself as you choose


----------



## katie_biscuit (Jun 14, 2011)

madzone said:


> So if teachers have an inkling of who's taking the piss (pun intended) why does there need to be a blanket ban on _all _kids going to the toilet?
> 
> And he didn't have an upset stomach when I sent him in, it came on during the day. I kept him off on Friday and Monday and they phoned yesterday and said they wanted me to send him back.


 
I think that all depends on the size and management of any given school.  The larger the school the more stupid blanket rules they are forced to make up to stop the students running rings around them 

If he is better then send him back, if he isn't then them phoning and saying send him back should be greeted with "that's not what the GP/ NHS Direct recommended" or words to that effect.  You're his parent, you know best.  You deal with HIM, they deal with hundreds of kids like cattle.  It isn't up to them to decide he is well if you think he isn't.  Go the the doctor and ask them for a note if the school think he is on a skive.  If your child has a stomach bug he passes on to half of his class THEN the school will know what poor attendance levels look like.  If in doubt, say he was fine til he had the school dinners and see if that has any effect on their attitude.


----------



## innit (Jun 14, 2011)

Nice.


----------



## Sweet FA (Jun 14, 2011)

Edie said:


> Just let kids go for a piss when they want


You haven't really thought this through have you?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 14, 2011)

this is why i went into FE

in FE  if your  students fuck about  it's  their fault 

in compuslury education if students  fuck about it's  the teachers fault

if  students start failing your class because they are always going off to the toilet while in our class   who gets the blame?

teachers only get about an hour a week in their  subject  maybe two if their  lucky    and  what  happens  when a student  nips out  for 15 min of that?    what happens  when they miss that important lesson.  and who gets the blame?


----------



## Edie (Jun 14, 2011)

Sweet FA said:


> You haven't really thought this through have you?


To be honest, probably not.


----------



## Sweet FA (Jun 14, 2011)




----------



## sheothebudworths (Jun 14, 2011)

I asked my son about this yesterday. The only time they're refused a toilet visit is if they were to ask right at the start of a lesson. This is a large, bog standard comp.


----------



## madzone (Jun 14, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> this is why i went into FE
> 
> in FE  if your  students fuck about  it's  their fault
> 
> ...


 
(((((teachers)))))


----------



## Edie (Jun 14, 2011)

Sweet FA said:


>


It just seems like if you have to make petty rules like that, what you've got is an overall bad discipline problem in the school. Which should be dealt with, not by cracking down on the symptom of the problem (kids skiving during supposed piss breaks) but by sorting out the fact that you've got a schools worth of kids who want and _feel able_ to take the mickey. It's like that stupid 'no touching' ban. It's just indicative of how kids feel they can do what they want, and teachers feel powerless to deal with it by being reasonable.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 14, 2011)

there is a lot wrong  with  education  nowadays  and  these  rather annoying rules are a symptom of it.

you have a body of knowledge to transmit  and a set amount of time to do it in.   it's you  and however many students.  you have about an hour. 

your students are all  operating with different needs and abilities  yet somehow your lesson needs to  work for all of them.


what do you do if a few students start to fall behind?  what do you do  when students want to leave the class?   what do you do with students who come late  or start faffing about in class?


----------



## madzone (Jun 14, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> there is a lot wrong  with  education  nowadays  and  these  rather annoying rules are a symptom of it.
> 
> you have a body of knowledge to transmit  and a set amount of time to do it in.   it's you  and however many students.  you have about an hour.
> 
> ...


 
At my kid's school they just give them endless detentions.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 14, 2011)

that's about all they can do.

plus   there is weird rules on detentions  too  now isn't there?


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> there is a lot wrong  with  education  nowadays  and  these  rather annoying rules are a symptom of it.
> 
> you have a body of knowledge to transmit  and a set amount of time to do it in.   it's you  and however many students.  you have about an hour.
> 
> ...


 
Again the key is creating a situation where the kids themselves _want_ to learn and _want _to get something out of the lesson. Not always easy, not always possible. But crack that and so many of these issues are solved.


----------



## madzone (Jun 14, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> that's about all they can do.
> 
> plus   there is weird rules on detentions  too  now isn't there?


 
You really think that's all they can do? Why _keep _doing something that doesn't work? 

I don't know about any rules on detentions, my youngest gets about an hour and a half every week.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 14, 2011)

chilango said:


> Again the key is creating a situation where the kids themselves _want_ to learn and _want _to get something out of the lesson. Not always easy, not always possible. But crack that and so many of these issues are solved.


 
of course.  just that isn't  very easy.
just done an assignment  on how you might use  ICT to help 
http://ithinkihavethatmanga.com/media/SSS T4.pdf

most of that is very pie in the sky though.  unfortunately it's very rare for  major changes to happen.  people don't like change.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 14, 2011)

madzone said:


> my youngest gets about an hour and a half every week.


 
You'd think, that just _maybe_, they might have worked out that it isn't working on him and try some other way of resolving his behaviour


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 14, 2011)

madzone said:


> You really think that's all they can do? Why _keep _doing something that doesn't work?



because you aren't allowed to do anything else 

seriously  what punishments  can teachers give?

or beyond that  what  can one  teacher change in their lesson?

to really make an impactyou would have to radically change the system  but  thats  going to be near impossible  as it  requires  money  and  takes risks


----------



## madzone (Jun 14, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> because you aren't allowed to do anything else
> 
> seriously  what punishments  can teachers give?
> 
> ...


 Why does it have to be punishment based?

And who says I'm talking about one teacher? Why are teachers so fucking defensive?


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 14, 2011)

weepiper said:


> You'd think, that just _maybe_, they might have worked out that it isn't working on him and try some other way of resolving his behaviour


 
My friend has a lot of problems with her ASD son and his school, and they're a special school that's supposed to be "outstanding" at dealing with autism as well. They don't seem to take on board anything she suggests for helping.


----------



## madzone (Jun 14, 2011)

weepiper said:


> You'd think, that just _maybe_, they might have worked out that it isn't working on him and try some other way of resolving his behaviour


 
Wouldn't you just? Mind you, this is the school that gave my diagnosed hyperactive kid detentions for fidgetting. My youngest is getting detentions for fidgetting as well


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> of course.  just that isn't  very easy.
> just done an assignment  on how you might use  ICT to help
> http://ithinkihavethatmanga.com/media/SSS T4.pdf
> 
> most of that is very pie in the sky though.  unfortunately it's very rare for  major changes to happen.  people don't like change.


 
I'm lucky. I'm in that fortunate situation. Once, for example, I was held up by a member of management and got to a lesson 15 minutes late. I arrived to find my class of 15 year olds sat quietly getting on with their work. I don't generally have any major discipline issues and my kids are now well trained in the ideas of self-motivation  and self-directed learning. But, as I said, I'm lucky. I'm in position where this is possible.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 14, 2011)

madzone said:


> Why does it have to be punishment based?
> 
> And who says I'm talking about one teacher? Why are teachers so fucking defensive?


 
i'm just trying to give the teachers perspective.

rewards are a good idea  but i'm not sure how  you would reward good behaviour.
what possible reward systems are in place?  gold stars?   smiley faces on homework?   i'm not sure most schools have  any tangible reward schemes.  although if you look in that assignment i put up  i did include a section on  rewards schemes.
in the classic  approach   the reward is  the  qualification.


----------



## madzone (Jun 14, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> i'm just trying to give the teachers perspective.
> 
> rewards are a good idea  but i'm not sure how  you would reward good behaviour.
> what possible reward systems are in place?  gold stars?   smiley faces on homework?   i'm not sure most schools have  any tangible reward schemes.  although if you look in that assignment i put up  i did include a section on  rewards schemes.
> in the classic  approach   the reward is  the  qualification.


 


Can you seriosuly only see things in terms of reward and punishment?


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2011)

I've worked in schools where they have formal "reward systems". Generally they sucked.

Again you have to get to situation where the kids find the learning itself a reward and missing out on that punishment enough. I very rarely need to punish any of my students. The occasional lapse in behaviour (which is almost always a case of misdirected energies or thoughtlessness rather than anything more serious) is dealt with by discussing with the kid appropriate measures for them to take...if a kid makes a mess, they come in and help with cleaning at lunchtime, if they've not respected a classmate they volunteer to help/do something nice for them or the class in general. They usually respond better to this than a knee jerk referral to the formal disciplinary procedures.

But again, I know that this approach requires certain conditions to have been created for it to work. Not everybody is lucky enough to be in that position.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 14, 2011)

madzone said:


> Can you seriosuly only see things in terms of reward and punishment?


 
you haven't read that  link i put up have you?

there are lots of  different ways to approach education.  the problem is  we are stuck in the current one.    this current  approach means  teacher are forced to try and  adapt  student behaviour to fit  the classroom environment   rather than adapt the classroom environment  to meets the student's needs and abilities.

therefore 

looking from the perspective of a teacher in one of these classrooms   when a student  exhibits a behaviour that is detrimental to the learning environment what do you do?

i'm all for changing the system  but    i'm aware that is beyond the ability of  individual teachers.   individual teachers have to  work within the system.


----------



## Edie (Jun 14, 2011)

chilango said:


> I'm lucky. I'm in that fortunate situation. Once, for example, I was held up by a member of management and got to a lesson 15 minutes late. I arrived to find my class of 15 year olds sat quietly getting on with their work. I don't generally have any major discipline issues and my kids are now well trained in the ideas of self-motivation  and self-directed learning. But, as I said, I'm lucky. I'm in position where this is possible.


What position are you in?


----------



## stuff_it (Jun 14, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> There's such a thing as a toilet pass?


 
They used to have one per classroom at my old school, it made it easy for the teacher to know that only one kid from each class was out at a time, and if it was missing by the end of the lesson it was pretty obvious that someone had done a bunk or drowned during a swirly from an older pupil, or whatever. You didn't have to give a reason, but couldn't really go a lot of times in one lesson or it would be noticed.




Edie said:


> What position are you in?


 
Do the guards keep them quite with a clip round the head with a night stick if they get stuck waiting?


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2011)

Edie said:


> What position are you in?


 
A position where the nature of my subject, the syllabus that I follow, the style of my teaching, my own personality, the culture of the school, the nature of the kids etc etc etc allow me work in the manner I've been describing.


----------



## stuff_it (Jun 14, 2011)

chilango said:


> A position where the nature of my subject, the syllabus that I follow, the style of my teaching, my own personality, the culture of the school, the nature of the kids etc etc etc allow me work in the manner I've been describing.


 
Art teacher in a private prep?


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Art teacher in a private prep?


 
Not quite but close enough.


----------



## stuff_it (Jun 14, 2011)

Doh, 15, so not a prep...easy life still though.

In the US state secondaries have all the same equipment as a private school in the UK, kilns, free canvas for you to stretch, free oil paint, etc....in the UK we were still using 6 block powdered paint for out GCSEs


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Doh, 15, so not a prep...easy life still though.



Easy?

Yes. I guess it is. In the sense that many of the issues discussed above just aren't an issue.

The question should be though _why_ it is easy in comparison to other types of school/subject. What are the differences that make it easier? and can they be applied to the majority of schools/subjects?


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 14, 2011)

madzone said:


> Wouldn't you just? Mind you, this is the school that gave my diagnosed hyperactive kid detentions for fidgetting. My youngest is getting detentions for fidgetting as well


 
What is this place? The junior version of GITMO?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Jun 14, 2011)

never let my kids go to the loo - unless they ask like 50 times and confirms it's an emergency. If they're little I tell them to go beforehand. No way of telling the time-wasters from the ones who really need to go. Also if you let one go, you get a sea of hands and every single one of them wants to.


----------



## madzone (Jun 14, 2011)

A toilet pass sounds like a good idea. I'll mention it to middle boy so he can think about it as part of his campaign


----------



## nagapie (Jun 14, 2011)

chilango said:


> I can't agree with that.
> 
> "Strictness" in itself is no indicator of anything.  As you rightly say it's the caring that matters.
> 
> ...



I didn't say strictness in itself was an indicator of anything, I said it has to be combined with other things. I was referring to classroom management, I think that's just a semantics point you're picking up on. I think my post referred to how certain structures don't suit certain kids as well. However, I can only comment on my 12 years of teaching in inner London schools, the kids want structures. Call that strict or classroom management or whatever but the freer classes at my school are bedlam. Perhaps kids are too socialised into being passive, that's another issue. Personally I think the whole school system is rotten.


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2011)

nagapie said:


> I didn't say strictness in itself was an indicator of anything, I said it has to be combined with other things. I was referring to classroom management, I think that's just a semantics point you're picking up on. I think my post referred to how certain structures don't suit certain kids as well. However, I can only comment on my 12 years of teaching in inner London schools, the kids want structures. Call that strict or classroom management or whatever but the freer classes at my school are bedlam. Perhaps kids are too socialised into being passive, that's another issue. Personally I think the whole school system is rotten.


 
Fair enough.

Bedlam isn't _always_ bad, mind.

But I'd agree that kids want structure - at least they want consistency and to know where they stand.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 14, 2011)

thing is, i teach a creative subject in a variety of overwhelmingly kinasthetic-led ways. soe of the kids i teach -about half, maybe - have a genuine love for the subject. they enjoy learning and look forward to their drama classes. but teenagers are a troubled group, and hard to get through to in many cases. My problems with kids looking for chances to piss about or skive off come from those who like the subject well enough when it' something immediate and fun, but really resent having to rehearse something more than once, or learn lines, or write some coursework. the syllabuses make quite adult demands on kids - and some thrive on that... but even in a subject as kinasthetic as anything the curriculum has to offer, there still has to be continued application of effort. hard work. focus.


----------



## Mation (Jun 14, 2011)

This thread has reminded me of saying in class "But _Sir_" very loudly, "I have my PERIOD and I really need to go to the loo NOW" to my poor teacher who had just refused my first request to go. 

I did have my period and needed to sort it out pronto, but was also intent on embarrassing him as I was cross that he'd said no. It worked, he went very red and shooed me out of the room quickly.


----------



## madzone (Jun 14, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> thing is, i teach a creative subject in a variety of overwhelmingly kinasthetic-led ways. soe of the kids i teach -about half, maybe - have a genuine love for the subject. they enjoy learning and look forward to their drama classes. but teenagers are a troubled group, and hard to get through to in many cases. My problems with kids looking for chances to piss about or skive off come from those who like the subject well enough when it' something immediate and fun, but really resent having to rehearse something more than once, or learn lines, or write some coursework. the syllabuses make quite adult demands on kids - and some thrive on that... but even in a subject as kinasthetic as anything the curriculum has to offer, there still has to be continued application of effort. hard work. focus.


 

You know I love you but fuck me that's patronsing and blinkered.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 14, 2011)

madzone said:


> You know I love you but fuck me that's patronsing and blinkered.


 
you think it doesn't happen?


----------



## madzone (Jun 14, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> you think it doesn't happen?


 
Think what doesn't happen?


----------



## ymu (Jun 14, 2011)

Miss Green had this policy when I was 8. I was so terrified of asking if I coukd go, I carefully and deliberately wet myself in class, and went to dry off later.

Child abuse IMO. Ridiculous policy.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2011)

Thats fucked up. I learned early that when I wanted bog I was going and nobody can stop me. Oh the refrain of 'couldn't you go at breaktime' no miss/sir, I need a piss when I need one.

Why would you piss yourself- I';d have pissed in the supply cupboard before doing that.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 14, 2011)

I was such a disruptive twat at school that had my bog breaks been banned I'd have happily laid a log on the classroom floor. See how smoothly the lesson flows after that contribution.


----------



## ymu (Jun 14, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Thats fucked up. I learned early that when I wanted bog I was going and nobody can stop me. Oh the refrain of 'couldn't you go at breaktime' no miss/sir, I need a piss when I need one.
> 
> Why would you piss yourself- I';d have pissed in the supply cupboard before doing that.


 
I wasn't a kid who ever messed about. I had no idea why some kids couldn't seem to control their bladders, I only ever needed to go once in class, but I didn't want to get humiliated like others did for asking, so I calculated that slowly releasing watery piss over the course of an hour would be preferable. No one ever said anything, so it turned out I made the right call.

Viciously unimaginative teacher. 

Blanket bans like that are a crap solution. Teachers might we'll need something to help them deal with time-wasters, but not if they're mindlessly causing distress by being too fucking crap to bother differentiating.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 15, 2011)

We don't lock the loos but we have no going to the loo in lesson time without a toilet pass (ie kids with medical conditions) but there is a certain amount of discretion. I am in an exceptional school though. Classrooms are not locked. Theft is really rare (I can remember two incidents in 5 years although BSF workers stole loads in the holidays). I once (accidentally) left my purse in full view on a desk in a classroom with a substantial amount of cash in it and when I finally found it at the end of the day it was still there, untouched. State Comprehensive.


----------



## ymu (Jun 15, 2011)

I didn't do mornings in 6th form, and I had teachers who would rather risk being reported for not reporting me than report me themselves because they knew I wasn't just skiving and didn't need any more stress. Even the headmaster was happy to keep the punishment at a weekly meeting where he suggested I see him before assembly every day, I noted that it was unlikely to happen, he asked me to try and I agreed that I would.

The rigid process type cunts got me expelled eventually, but I owe the other teachers a lot for shielding me just long enough. You can't put kids in boxes, and for some of them just trying can cause real problems. I had a fucking nightmare of a camping trip with family friends because I was too shy to ask about toilet arrangements, thanks to that horrible, humiliating teacher. Hiding behind rules is just a shit way to teach. Kids know when they're taking the piss, and if they are, you embarrass the ones who are doing it, not mortify the whole fucking lot for no reason. 

Strong feelings here. Heh.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

it's easy to say "just do x"  but  i have to say it's a hell of a lot harder than that

there is  never a just do x solution to these problems    and as much as blanket bans  on toilet going isn't a sensible solution i hope people realise  that  it's a legitimate attempt at trying to deal with a real problem.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

ymu said:


> Kids know when they're taking the piss, and if they are, you embarrass the ones who are doing it, not mortify the whole fucking lot for no reason.


 
by embarrassing that student you run the risk of further alienating that student. you basically  end up creating  enemies.  not to mention the ethical issues  regarding  humiliating a student in front of their peers

plus i'm not sure that  a lot of them really  do think they are taking the piss.


----------



## ymu (Jun 15, 2011)

A lot of kids have genuine anxieties being made worse by it, yeah, I agree. Sledgehammer to crack a nut. Surpprised locking thetoiets is even legal. If you can afford to have someone scurrying around with keys, you can afford to have them patrolling for miscreants. Terrible response to the problem.


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> it's easy to say "just do x"  but  i have to say it's a hell of a lot harder than that
> 
> there is  never a just do x solution to these problems    and as much as blanket bans  on toilet going isn't a sensible solution i hope people realise  that  it's a legitimate attempt at trying to deal with a real problem.


 It's interesting you assume there's a problem. This is a very middle class school in a rural area. The kids aren't hooligans. I was looking on their website last night to see if there's any mention of strike action and there's a letter from the gurning head telling parents that they must buy knee length skirts for their daughters even though he knows they're really difficult to get. Uniform shouldn't be difficult to get  The bloke's a tosser and he's turning the school into a fucking prison camp.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

i wasn't talking about  just one school.   people have mentioned that this is the rule in other schools as well.

i can't talk specifics  but i can  talk of generalities.  and issues about class room behaviour are  as general as you get.

so yes when i hear there  is a rule about this kind of thing  i assume  that it's there to address a problem. 

as for my thoughts on uniforms i was very glad i went to a non uniform school.


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> i wasn't talking about  just one school.   people have mentioned that this is the rule in other schools as well.
> 
> i can't talk specifics  but i can  talk of generalities.  and issues about class room behaviour are  as general as you get.
> 
> ...


 
So, when you hear of companies enforcing a no toilet break rule on adults do you think the same thing?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

are you  trying to sugest that  those two things are the same?


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> are you  trying to sugest that  those two things are the same?


 
How are they substantially different?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

it seems like your taking issue  with anyone   who even tries  to explain the thinking behind  these kind of rules  even after they have said  they think they are poor rules.   you may have a justifible axe to grind with this  guy  at  your school  as he does sound a bit of a dick   but    watch where you swing that thing  because some of us are just trying to show the bigger picture


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> How are they substantially different?


 
yes 

the relationship is totally different    not to mention the type of  work  going on 

this is more akin to businesses   banning   toilet break during  important meetings.    your still allowed to go  when not in a meeting  but  your  expected not to dash off half way through a presentation

the diffrences are  so huge  i could go on for hours


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> yes
> 
> yes they bloody well are.


 
I didn't say are they I said _how_ are they?

And I'm not swinging anything anywhere. It just seems as soon as you start a thread about education teachers come piling in saying that there's no other way.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

actually  if you re-read the thread  the teachers say that  there are  lots of other ways    but  then go  on to list why  those ways   aren't happening

as you will see if you read my posts  i was  saying  WHY these things happen  not  saying this  is  the best way or the only way.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

To be fair teachers have come piling in saying a whole range of things.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> yes
> 
> the relationship is totally different    not to mention the type of  work  going on
> 
> ...



Interesting point.

As a teacher who does let students go to the bathroom when they ask - they rarely ask during a part of my lesson that's "teacher delivered"...if they do I get them to wait till that bits finished and go at a less disruptive time (i.e. during the part of the lesson that is "student production" if you like).


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> yes
> 
> the relationship is totally different    not to mention the type of  work  going on
> 
> ...


 
Difference being there aren't presentations going on all working day.


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> To be fair teachers have come piling in saying a whole range of things.


 
Well, no-one seems to be listening to _you_  I wish there were more teachers like you.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

that's my policy too  and  it works  fine  for me  because i have  nice long lessons.  i freely allow  people  to  go  to the loo or  get some coffee  because  there is   a lot of opertunities for that.     however i can tatally understand    the  problems  of  being in an hour  slot  in which you get  at least 10min knocked off  for waiting for people to turn up and then pack up     i can really  imagine  being in the situation  when the students  wern't as  mature  as   my lot  are   so  can see the logic behind   these rules  even  when  i don't agree with them.    i'm  all for flexability  personally   but  that just  be because i'm very fortunate  with  the  groups i get and the very little presure i'm under


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> that's my policy too  and  it works  fine  for me  because i have  nice long lessons.  i freely allow  people  to  go  to the loo or  get some coffee  because  there is   a lot of opertunities for that.     however i can tatally understand    the  problems  of  being in an hour  slot  in which you get  at least 10min knocked off  for waiting for people to turn up and then pack up     i can really  imagine  being in the situation  when the students  wern't as  mature  as   my lot  are   so  can see the logic behind   these rules  even  when  i don't agree with them.    i'm  all for flexability  personally   but  that just  be because i'm very fortunate  with  the  groups i get and the very little presure i'm under


 
What is it you teach?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> Difference being there aren't presentations going on all working day.


 
yes  because school and work are very diffrent


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> What is it you teach?


 
city & guilds web design


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> thank you for pointing out another diffrence between work and school.
> 
> i told you there were a lot of them


 
  You're just being silly now.


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> city & guilds web design



In a secondary school?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

you asked me  to point out the differences didn't you?

school is rather like a large number of presentations  that you are expected to sit through going on all day.

if there was a workplace  that had  that model  employees would be expected  to take toilet break etc  in  break periods.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> In a secondary school?


 
no as i mentioned earlier i'm FE


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> no as i mentioned earlier i'm FE


 
So it's ok to let 17 yr olds go to the toilet but not 16 yr olds....


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> you asked me  to point out the differences didn't you?
> 
> school is rather like a large number of presentations  that you are expected to sit through going on all day.
> 
> if there was a workplace  that had  that model  employees would be expected  to take toilet break etc  in  break periods.



This is fucking ridiculous  You're being daft for the sake of it. Haven't you got some lesson plans to do or something?
Next time anyone complains about bad working practices in their place of employment I'll point them towards this thread because it seems to be ok to treat kids in a way we wouldn't ever dream of saying was ok for adults.


----------



## _angel_ (Jun 15, 2011)

ymu said:


> Miss Green had this policy when I was 8. I was so terrified of asking if I coukd go, I carefully and deliberately wet myself in class, and went to dry off later.
> 
> Child abuse IMO. Ridiculous policy.


 
I think I wet myself about the same age (not on purpose) cos the loo blocks were too far away from the classroom. What Sam posted about truly was abuse, definitely.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

i don't get  how you come up with this after reading my posts


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> Well, no-one seems to be listening to _you_  I wish there were more teachers like you.


 
Thing is, not all teachers are in the same position as me.

As I keep repeating, I'm lucky. I work hard, damn hard, to be able to teach this way. It _does_ take a considerable amount of skill, a lot of hours put in building up the relationships with the pupils,and a lot of confidence in what I'm doing and why I do it this way, but at the end of the day most teachers work just as hard (if not harder) and are not in a position to do it this way.

The question is _how_ and _why_ are other teachers put in the position where they can't be as free/relaxed in their approach ?


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> school is rather like a large number of presentations  that you are expected to sit through going on all day.



That might be part of the problem...


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> Interesting point.
> 
> As a teacher who does let students go to the bathroom when they ask - they rarely ask during a part of my lesson that's "teacher delivered"...if they do I get them to wait till that bits finished and go at a less disruptive time (i.e. during the part of the lesson that is "student production" if you like).


 
going back to this one  i'm guessing it  also  depends on the method of delivery.  if your doing  nearly all lecture style  presentations  in a class  you really  need  full attendance   where as  with worksheet based stuff you have  a hell of a lot of flexibility.


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> Thing is, not all teachers are in the same position as me.
> 
> As I keep repeating, I'm lucky. I work hard, damn hard, to be able to teach this way. It _does_ take a considerable amount of skill, a lot of hours put in building up the relationships with the pupils,and a lot of confidence in what I'm doing and why I do it this way, but at the end of the day most teachers work just as hard (if not harder) and are not in a position to do it this way.
> 
> The question is _how_ and _why_ are other teachers put in the position where they can't be as free/relaxed in their approach ?



Like i said earlier, the problem is with the service not who's delivering it.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> That might be part of the problem...


 
totally.   the regimented  factory line style  education  system  really isn't  very  good  at promoting   motivation  which is what  we really want


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> totally.   the regimented  factory line style  education  system  really isn't  very  good  at promoting   motivation  which is what  we really want


 
So, how do you go about addressing it? It seems that teachers behave like sheep. They admit the system is wrong but still perpetuate it.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> So, how do you go about addressing it? It seems that teachers behave like sheep. They admit the system is wrong but still perpetuate it.


 
that is a subject of long debate.    hell early in this thread i linked to a whole essay i wrote about  how you might go about  making a different system.

the think is   we have a current system    and it   works up to a point.     and to change the system  would   take  lots of money  and   a lot of governmental change in policy.  

there are  lot's  of schools  that try something diffrent   places like summerhill for example  but   to change  the majority of  schools  you would  need  mass public support and  goverment support

untill that time teachers  will  beforece into the same system that  the students are forced into.

what  do you really  expect  teacher to do?      often the choice is work within the  system or quit.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> So, how do you go about addressing it? It seems that teachers behave like sheep. They admit the system is wrong but still perpetuate it.


 
That's not really fair. There's only so much a teacher can do when faced with an entire system. But, you're absolutely right that we should do what we can. That needs support from parents too though. If, for example, teachers strike against a management regime or take industrial action against SATs then parents need to be vocal in their backing of teachers. If teachers try and introduce new curricula or a new exam board/system, again parents need to back the teachers rather than worry about league tables and exam scores.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

In fact, if there was generalised rejection of the entire ethos of league tables that would be a very healthy start. Parents should stop taking about "catchment areas" and pass rates. Very unhealthy in the context of this discussion.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 15, 2011)

I hate league tables with a pure and deathly loathing.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

the whole concept of exams i find  really rather  strange.  they are really rather shit as a means  of determining  a students ability.


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> That's not really fair. There's only so much a teacher can do when faced with an entire system. But, you're absolutely right that we should do what we can. That needs support from parents too though. If, for example, teachers strike against a management regime or take industrial action against SATs then parents need to be vocal in their backing of teachers. If teachers try and introduce new curricula or a new exam board/system, again parents need to back the teachers rather than worry about league tables and exam scores.


 Well, I was just about to say that teachers seem to be happy to strike against things that are affecting them personally so why can't they use strike action in a case like this. As it goes I keep my kids off school during any strike action even if the school is still open because I feel that the way head teachers go about getting non-union staff in to cover anyone striking undermines the right to strike in the first place. 

However, no-one is _forced_ to become a teacher.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> the whole concept of exams i find  really rather  strange.  they are really rather shit as a means  of determining  a students ability.



Yup.

One factor in making my position so favorable is the lack of exams as assessment in my subject in the system I work in. There is, of course, formal assessment, but it is much more holistic in its approach. My 18 year old students frinal grade for example is drawn from  a continuous assessment of their work over two years and a summative assessment of this body of work at the end of the two years. Howver, even then the pressure is slightly less as those students who go to continue studying my subject at University do not get offered places based upon this grade, but rather on an appropriate portfolio of their work presented at interview.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> Well, I was just about to say that teachers seem to be happy to strike against things that are affecting them personally so why can't they use strike action in a case like this. As it goes I keep my kids off school during any strike action even if the school is still open because I feel that the way head teachers go about getting non-union staff in to cover anyone striking undermines the right to strike in the first place.
> 
> However, no-one is _forced_ to become a teacher.


 
Teachers are never "happy to strike". 

Most industrial action that I'm aware of has been about issues such as SATs, no? 

But even when teachers take action to defend pay and conditions surely you should still back them? A happy, settled teacher who feels well-treated is always, always going to be a better teacher than a de-motivated, insecure teacher with half an eye on looking for a new job. Surely?


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> Teachers are never "happy to strike".
> 
> Most industrial action that I'm aware of has been about issues such as SATs, no?
> 
> But even when teachers take action to defend pay and conditions surely you should still back them? A happy, settled teacher who feels well-treated is always, always going to be a better teacher than a de-motivated, insecure teacher with half an eye on looking for a new job. Surely?



I've just said I actively support them when they strike.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> However, no-one is _forced_ to become a teacher.



Terrible argument. School managers who apply a similar philosophy (you don't like it here? get a different job!)  - and I've worked for some - preside over schools with higher staff turnover and less motivates staff. High turnover of teachers is not good for students.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> I've just said I actively support them when they strike.


 


Just going through the arguments.


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> Terrible argument. School managers who apply a similar philosophy (you don't like it here? get a different job!)  - and I've worked for some - preside over schools with higher staff turnover and less motivates staff. High turnover of teachers is not good for students.


 
It might be a terrible argument but it's still valid. We keep hearing how bad it is for teachers so why do they go for the job in the first place?


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> It might be a terrible argument but it's still valid. We keep hearing how bad it is for teachers so why do they go for the job in the first place?


 
Do you want that argument taken to it's conclusion? that good teachers who see the faults in the system just don't bother becoming teachers or leave the profession? That you'll be left with teachers who are either willing to put up with things they know are wrong or who simply don't care?

I'm sure that's not what you are arguing. But like I said I've seen this argument used by managers in schools and it does the students no good at all.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> It might be a terrible argument but it's still valid. We keep hearing how bad it is for teachers so why do they go for the job in the first place?



...and...and...aren't we actually talking about "how bad it is" for the students not the teachers anyway? (though you can't really separate the two that much)


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> Do you want that argument taken to it's conclusion? that good teachers who see the faults in the system just don't bother becoming teachers or leave the profession? That you'll be left with teachers who are either willing to put up with things they know are wrong or who simply don't care?
> 
> I'm sure that's not what you are arguing. But like I said I've seen this argument used by managers in schools and it does the students no good at all.



I'm saying it can't be a surprise to people how flawed the system is so why do they buy into it by becoming employed as a teacher? I considered training as a CPN at one time but couldn't condone what they system was doing so I chose to go into the private/voluntary sector instead.



chilango said:


> ...and...and...aren't we actually talking about "how bad it is" for the students not the teachers anyway? (though you can't really separate the two that much)


 
The children have no choice....


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> Yup.
> 
> One factor in making my position so favorable is the lack of exams as assessment in my subject in the system I work in. There is, of course, formal assessment, but it is much more holistic in its approach. My 18 year old students frinal grade for example is drawn from  a continuous assessment of their work over two years and a summative assessment of this body of work at the end of the two years. Howver, even then the pressure is slightly less as those students who go to continue studying my subject at University do not get offered places based upon this grade, but rather on an appropriate portfolio of their work presented at interview.


 
yep  again i'm very glad that  the city and guilds in marked  on a portfolio basis.  there is also an exam  but  if you don't pass it first time   we  ask the questions  orally  and    take a different angle.   we make it as easy as possible for the student to demonstrate understanding 

it's a far cry  from exams    especially  ones  that  have only one answer.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> I'm saying it can't be a surprise to people how flawed the system is so why do they buy into it by becoming employed as a teacher? I considered training as a CPN at one time but couldn't condone what they system was doing so I chose to go into the private/voluntary sector instead.



I repeat...



chilango said:


> That you'll be left with teachers who are either willing to put up with things they know are wrong or who simply don't care?


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> I repeat...


 We're left with that anyway though


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> We keep hearing how bad it is for teachers so why do they go for the job in the first place?


Because they love their subject and love kids. The awful bit of teaching is successive governments' initiatives and 'measurable outcomes'. The workload of teachers is immense. Anyone who thinks it's 8am to 3:30pm and long holidays is very much mistaken. I see lots of enthusiastic idealist young teachers who very quickly sink into a pit of low morale. Also in other countries teachers are respected far more than in the UK. The UK doesn't really like children much and teenagers are largely portrayed as dangerous alien beings, so I'm not surprised that teachers don't have the respect in our society as they do in other countries.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 15, 2011)

actually   the  flaws in the system was one of the reasons i picked FE   mind you that's nearly as bad.

i can only speak for myself  but  i fell into teaching.  i started out  doing  teaching assistance at a small colledge  and  i saw i was doing some good.  it perhaps  wasn't the best  system  but  what i was doing was  appreciated.  even when i felt i was    in a  really bad system   at lambeth college  i could at least say to myself   every  day i went in at least one of my students  was  thankful that i was there  and had a rewarding experience.

if i were to  quit  they might  get someone worse


----------



## Pingu (Jun 15, 2011)

pfffttt.. kids today with their x stations, mobile interwebs, bookfacewitter, etc etc.

dont know they are born.

when i were a lad all we had was a ball and a cup and if we were lucky a casio calulator to write boobies on.



in school you didnt go to the loo mid lession... you went before it or after it. lessons were 40 minutes long so a double lesson was only 80 mins. you seriously want me to believe that a teenager (i will grant you younguns are differnet) cant work out if they need to go to the bog for up to 80 minutes? (again if there is a medical reaon thats diff).

we are far too soft on kids these days. not saying we should go back to victorian times etc but IMO the balance has shifted too far to other way. ditto mobilephones in lessons.. should be turned off. in an emergency parents can call school. 

as an aside i interviewd several students last week for some graduate positions we have open. I found it hard to believe some of them had GCSEs never mind degrees.  


right bring it on mofofs


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> We're left with that anyway though



No. there are, still, plenty of teachers who a) care and b) try to make a difference.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

Pingu said:


> pfffttt.. kids today with their x stations, mobile interwebs, bookfacewitter, etc etc.
> 
> dont know they are born.
> 
> ...



8008135.


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> No. there are, still, plenty of teachers who a) care and b) try to make a difference.


 

How do they try to make a difference?


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> How do they try to make a difference?


 
All manner of ways...

a) Doing what they can with each class, each student to make the best learning environment possible.
b) Arguing, fighting, discussing for change and improvement in their workplace and to the system as a whole.


----------



## Sweet FA (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> A position where the nature of my subject, the syllabus that I follow, the style of my teaching, my own personality, the culture of the school, the nature of the kids etc etc etc allow me work in the manner I've been describing.


EFL teacher in a private language school?


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2011)

Sweet FA said:


> EFL teacher in a private language school?


 
Nope.

I've known a fair few of those though.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 15, 2011)

madzone said:


> Well, no-one seems to be listening to _you_  I wish there were more teachers like you.


 
we could all be like that if we worked in a private school with no significant behaviour issues.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 15, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> we could all be like that if we worked in a private school with no significant behaviour issues.


 
...and tiny class sizes...


----------



## ymu (Jun 15, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> we could all be like that if we worked in a private school with no significant behaviour issues.


 
I don't have the guts to work with young uns, most of my students are older than me and earning four times as much. 

I do, honestly appreciate that it's difficult, but I really didn't respond well to what seemed like pointless rigidity as a kid. Found it quite damaging, really.

I am thinking of offering cheap stats and science-based careers oriented workshops to schools, especially difficult kids. If it ever happens, you can point and laugh at me then. (Do you reckon anyone would go for it?)


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 15, 2011)

chilango said:


> Thing is, not all teachers are in the same position as me.
> 
> As I keep repeating, I'm lucky. I work hard, damn hard, to be able to teach this way. It _does_ take a considerable amount of skill, a lot of hours put in building up the relationships with the pupils,and a lot of confidence in what I'm doing and why I do it this way, but at the end of the day most teachers work just as hard (if not harder) and are not in a position to do it this way.
> 
> The question is _how_ and _why_ are other teachers put in the position where they can't be as free/relaxed in their approach ?



good question. You've alluded to it quite coyly - can you tell us what kind of school you do teach in?

For the record. I work bloody hard too - i'm well liked by the kids as a whole and have good classroom relationships within the context of the school. I'm also passionate about my subject and I get some of the best results in the school. For whatever it's worth, I'm consistently judged as 'good - to outstanding' in inspections and observations. 



Shippou-Sensei said:


> going back to this one  i'm guessing it  also  depends on the method of delivery.  if your doing  nearly all lecture style  presentations  in a class  you really  need  full attendance   where as  with worksheet based stuff you have  a hell of a lot of flexibility.


 
My specific problem (there's very little 'lecture'-style teaching at secondary level - we'd fail our observations if we did that, apart from the fact it isn't great for the age of kids) is that all my work is done in groups. If a child leaves for five or ten mins (my room is quite a way away from the nearest loos) then it's very hard for the rest of her group to continue with their rehearsal. So you end up with five kids missing out that time, and not just one.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 15, 2011)

ymu said:


> I don't have the guts to work with young uns, most of my students are older than me and earning four times as much.
> 
> I do, honestly appreciate that it's difficult, but I really didn't respond well to what seemed like pointless rigidity as a kid. Found it quite damaging, really.
> 
> I am thinking of offering cheap stats and science-based careers oriented workshops to schools, especially difficult kids. If it ever happens, you can point and laugh at me then. (Do you reckon anyone would go for it?)



maybe - but budgets are being slashed next year, and schools are offered a fair amount of that kind of stuff for free. (NESTA etc)


----------



## madzone (Jun 15, 2011)

I went in to school to pick up youngest again and someone spoke to me about uniform. She said they'd been listening to the parents and how unhappy they are with the prices and only being able to get the uniform in one shop in town. She proudly announced that they're changing retailers........to a shop eighteen miles away


----------



## ymu (Jun 15, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> maybe - but budgets are being slashed next year, and schools are offered a fair amount of that kind of stuff for free. (NESTA etc)


 Yeah. Prolly wouldn't ask much more than expenses. Have lots of time these days, and I love teaching. It's the same stuff I teach doctors, but with a view to giving kids an idea of how science and stats relate to really fucking interesting jobs, where there's a shortage, and they don't need a degree to get started.

Reverse brain drain sort of thing. Lots of people have a talennt for what I do, if only they knew it.

I'd be bringing my partner to look stern and scary for me, mind.


----------

