# Dispatches & Panorama programmes on ATOS disability assessments (30/7)



## BigTom (Jul 30, 2012)

There are two programmes on tonight about the ATOS disability assessment process, which it would be really good to publicise, especially the channel 4 dispatches one, which has a doctor going undercover to find out about the process, this is on at 8pm tonight, and has led to the story about ATOS targets to find 89% of people fit for work:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jul/27/disability-benefit-assessors-film?CMP=twt_fd



> Secret filming of training given to doctors recruited by the private company Atos to assess whether sickness and disability benefit applicants are fit for work suggests that staff are monitored to ensure they do not find excessive numbers of claimants eligible.
> ...
> The trainer tells trainee assessors: "If it's more than I think 12% or 13%, you will be fed back 'your rate is too high.'" When Bick questioned how the company could know in advance the precise proportion of people who needed to be put in this category, the trainer replied: "How do we know? I don't know who set the criteria but that's what we are being told."
> 
> Bick asked: "So if we put 20% in, we would get picked up on?". He was told by the trainer that, in that scenario, his cases would be reviewed.


 

http://benefitscroungingscum.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/q-when-is-target-not-target-when-its.html

is a really good, balanced article discussing the targets. 

then at 8:30pm, Panorama has a program about the same - not sure about this, the title is dodgy and the BBC don't have a great record when it comes to disability stuff but this telegraph article suggests at least it will highlight the injustice of it with a story about a man with a heart condtion found fit for work having been advised by his assessor to seek urgent medical advice, who died from a heart attack five weeks later

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...s-sending-sick-and-disabled-back-to-work.html



> Despite the assessor telling Mr Hill to seek urgent medical advice, he was still found fit for work. In the meantime doctors had diagnosed him with heart failure.
> 
> He won his appeal but he was ordered to attend another assessment.
> 
> ...


 
I think it's important that people who have not experienced or heard about this process, or who do not understand that it is such a failure, should see the dispatches program, and possibly the panorama one, though I might regret saying that later tonight.
I'm sure there will be discussion here about them both, probably over a couple of threads..


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## Voley (Jul 30, 2012)

Ta for that. Will watch the Dispatches one.


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

yeah, needed its own thread



shamelessly bumping up hits....


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

'Neil Bateman, a Welfare Rights Advisor says that his success rate for appeals is much higher and that the system is badly flawed:
“I think I’ve won all of the appeals so far. 80-90% with experienced advisers is quite common, which is ridiculous that we’re getting such a fantastic success rate. The way they gather the evidence and the quality of the decision-making is badly wrong.” '

from Panorama

maybe even the Panorama one will be a bit more balanced, unlike usual BBC output on benefits, etc..

in fact, it has to be, the abuses/failures/corruption is now too widespread, well known, etc to be ignored..


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

Snap Tom..


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

'Todays newspapers are once again hitting the lazy scrounger rhetoric as hard as they can with The Fail, Express and Sun all vying for the most despicable articles.

The mail:
Off sick for a decade... with acne or a cough! The astonishing cases among 885,000 benefit claimants

The Express:
SLICKNESS BENEFIT CULTURE THAT BLEEDS COUNTRY DRY

The Sun:
Disability benefits treble in 20yrs. Annual bill is £13bn. And this is how many claim: 3,226,790 '



reposting what you put up, i don't think it is a co-incidence that the tabloids and the DWP have launched a media offensive before the programmes, in fact its so fucking transparent...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2012)

I don't tweet, has anyone tweeted this?

Would be good to get it really going


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## Fedayn (Jul 30, 2012)

This is what was placed on the DWP intranet this morning in regards to the programme.....



> *Media coverage about Employment and Support Allowance and Work Capability Assessments.*
> 
> Two television programmes will be shown today (30 July) about Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) and Work Capability Assessments (WCA). The programmes are Panorama at 8.30pm on BBC Two, and Dispatches at 8pm on Channel 4.
> It is expected that the programmes will cover:
> ...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Todays newspapers are once again hitting the lazy scrounger rhetoric as hard as they can with The Fail, Express and Sun all vying for the most despicable articles.
> 
> The mail:
> Off sick for a decade... with acne or a cough! The astonishing cases among 885,000 benefit claimants
> ...


 
Maybe it'll backfire?  Maybe so many people will want to see these scroungers under examination, they'll watch the programme?  (They'll probably watch the BBC one though)


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> This is what was placed on the DWP intranet this morning in regards to the programme.....


 

Nice one Fed, they are worried...


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> '<snip>
> reposting what you put up, i don't think it is a co-incidence that the tabloids and the DWP have launched a media offensive before the programmes, in fact its so fucking transparent...



Thanks treelover..


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> This is what was placed on the DWP intranet this morning in regards to the programme.....


Excellent Fed.


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

"We know that it is a difficult process, and we won't get every decision right, but we have worked incredibly hard to continuously improve the process and will continue to do so. It is extremely disappointing that these programmes do not seem willing to offer a balanced view.”

The cheek, these will (hopefully) be the first programmes to do so!


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

Now it's a WAR in the fucking Express..!! 

BRITAIN’S benefits system faces a fresh blitz after figures reveal nearly 900,000 people have claimed sickness handouts for more than a decade.
Taxpayers shelled out around £4billion last year alone to long-term benefit claimants for a vast number of ailments, the new statistics show.
They also reveal a catalogue of dubious cases – including 20,000 alcoholics and drug addicts who pocket handouts costing £100million a year.
Employment Minister Chris Grayling said the statistics underlined why drastic action is needed to make sure funds only go to those who have genuine health reasons for not working. The sick pay system has been blamed for keeping millions of families mired in benefit dependency.
Mr Grayling said: “These figures show the scale of the problem and the ludicrous situation that used to exist and why we are right to reform the system.”
The statistics, based by the Department for Work and Pensions on data from November 2011, show that 885,100 people – 34 per cent of the 2.6 million who live on the state “sick note” payments – have been doing so for at least a decade.
These figures show that there is plenty more fat to be trimmed out of the benefits budget
John O’Connell, research director of the TaxPayers’ Alliance
More than 1,000 people have been raking in handouts for headaches – at a cost of £5million a year. Some 690 people had been claiming handouts for obesity problems for at least 10 years, costing £3.3million in one year alone. And 20 people have been signed off for “coughs” at a cost of £100,000 last year.
The shocking Whitehall statistics will intensify anger at Britain’s spiralling welfare bill.
Last night John O’Connell, research director of the TaxPayers’ Alliance, said: “These figures show that there is plenty more fat to be trimmed out of the benefits budget. It’s crucial that the Government gets control of claims. The welfare system needs drastic reform.”


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

when will Levinson look at how issues around disabled people/benefits is covered by the Tabloids, its out of control, lies, smears, mis-information...

An example, 'headaches' will mean migraines, etc which can be devastating and very very severe...


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

'The Silence of the Labour Party'....


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

The Labour party are well up for what the Tories are doing treelover. They won't turn any of this around if they ever get elected again.


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## BigTom (Jul 30, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> The Labour party are well up for what the Tories are doing treelover. They won't turn any of this around if they ever get elected again.


 
They brought in ESA, the WCA and ATOS...


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

'There are two main areas of concern: unease about the government policy of retesting people's fitness for work, and alarm about practical hitches in the testing process delivered by Atos. Kate Green, a Labour MP who sits on the committee, said that while she was broadly supportive of the policy to help more people back into work, "the delivery has been absolutely disastrous".'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jul/24/atos-faces-critical-report-by-mps?intcmp=239



Of course, just read between the lines here, its obvious...


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)




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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

http://gamesmonitor2014.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/vile-atos-get-lucrative-games-contracts/

Tried to post image of graffiti outside ATOS HQ...


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

Surprised at this article from the Torygraph... It's factual..!

I know who did that Graffiti treelover and was surprised at who it was to be honest.


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

BigTom said:


> They brought in ESA, the WCA and ATOS...


They did Tom. Started with that prick Purnell who is now chair of ippr think tank.
He was a useless politician and now he's part of the feckers inventing shit policies for these braindead blerts in Westminster to force through.


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

How I almost lost my boyfriend to the WCA



> _Lauren’s boyfriend Mark has been repeatedly failed by the benefit system and is featured in tonight’s __BBC Panorama documentary__ on the __Work Capability Assessment__ (WCA). Mark struggles with written communication but here his girlfriend Lauren speaks about his experiences, and the impact it’s had on his mental health._


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## Bakunin (Jul 30, 2012)




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## Treacle Toes (Jul 30, 2012)

*Reviewer of fitness-to-work benefit tests to stand down*





> The man in charge of reviewing the government's controversial fitness-to-work benefit assessments is to stand down, the BBC's Panorama has learned.
> Professor Malcolm Harrington has called for a big overhaul of the process of testing claimants' ability to work to make it more "fair and humane".
> He said ministers wanted a "fresh set of eyes" - but denied this was because of changes he had asked for.
> Officials said he had only been recruited for a limited period.


 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19046447


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> "We know that it is a difficult process, and we won't get every decision right, but we have worked incredibly hard to continuously improve the process and will continue to do so. It is extremely disappointing that these programmes do not seem willing to offer a balanced view.”
> 
> The cheek, these will (hopefully) be the first programmes to do so!


 
and in the meantime, let's feed the press loads of dubious figures just so nobody believes the programmes


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 30, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> This is what was placed on the DWP intranet this morning in regards to the programme.....


 
Grayling's got the fucking cheek to claim that "Reforming incapacity benefits is all about saving lives"?
Jesus fucking Christ on a Honda 125, just how murderously-deluded is this turd in human form?


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 30, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Now it's a WAR in the fucking Express..!!
> 
> BRITAIN’S benefits system faces a fresh blitz after figures reveal nearly 900,000 people have claimed sickness handouts for more than a decade.
> Taxpayers shelled out around £4billion last year alone to long-term benefit claimants for a vast number of ailments, the new statistics show.
> ...


 
Fucking idiots cherry-picking and misrepresenting data.
Those people with headaches? Almost all are people who suffer from vascular headaches such as migraine, or from cluster headaches, both of which put the majority of sufferers in so much pain and/or an altered state of consciousness that they're unable to function normally.
What the fuck the Tax-avoider's Alliance has to do with this except for being pally with Richard shitcunt Desmond, who also enjoys "minimising his taxation", I haven't got a fucking clue.

Fucking kill them all, the shit-eating lying fuckpigs.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'The Silence of the Labour Party'....


 
Hardly surprising, especially with Blair sticking his hand up Miliband's arse.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 30, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> They did Tom. Started with that prick Purnell who is now chair of ippr think tank.
> He was a useless politician and now he's part of the feckers inventing shit policies for these braindead blerts in Westminster to force through.


 
Top-down social engineering by cunts who're even less subtle than the Victorian and Edwardian wankers whose shoes they're walking in. Clueless middle and upper class wankers with little experience of the lives the likes of us live (not that they give a fuck), but feel qualified to hand down their prescriptions for modifying our behaviour.
How anyone can still fool themselves that party politics is the solution to this situation is beyond me. These cunts are much of a cuntitude, whichever "party" they represent. A vote for any of them has pretty much become a vote for our own oppression, with each party offering a slightly different garnish on the shit sandwich they're feeding us.


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

Nothing yet on Sue Marsh's blog yet(diary of a benefit scrounger) maybe she is on one of the progs and has to keep stum...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2012)

Reminder bump as Dispatches one is on in a minute on Ch 4


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

Wow, excellent programme, decent trainer says categorically ''ESA is designed to take people off benefits'' and examples of one guy on 160 ml of morphine a day and still failing test...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> Wow, excellent programme, decent trainer says categorically ''ESA is designed to take people off benefits'' and examples of one guy on 160 ml of morphine a day and still failing test...


 
I'm on pause at the moment whilst cooking.

I reckon all these disabled who are capable of using one finger should show exactly what they can do with it to the DWP


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

Well, we have found the smoking gun! there are targetS for how many pass the ATOS medical, 12% for the support group and this request is sent down to Atos by the DWP, lets get it on You Tube..

WELL DONE DISPATCHES...


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## harpo (Jul 30, 2012)

Absolutely shocking. DWP firmly in the driving seat. A bit like when they denied having targets for sanctions.

So that was the one they weren't allowed to see first and this next, Panorama, they have vetted?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2012)

Yes, but haven't they responded about these programmes on the other thread?


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## BigTom (Jul 30, 2012)

dispatches was great, I really hope that some of the mail/telegraph journalists and readers watched it.. intro to panorama seems ok.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2012)

BigTom said:


> dispatches was great, I really hope that some of the mail/telegraph journalists and readers watched it.. intro to panorama seems ok.


 
Clashing with swimming and Corrie, what do you think?


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## BigTom (Jul 30, 2012)

yes! panorama states how small benefit fraud is, says it's only a small number of people. but now chris grayling is on screen urgh


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## BigTom (Jul 30, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Clashing with swimming and Corrie, what do you think?


 
well thankfully there is always 4OD and iPlayer


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## Bernie Gunther (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> Well, we have found the smoking gun! there are targetS for how many pass the ATOS medical, 12% for the support group and this request is sent down to Atos by the DWP, lets get it on You Tube..
> 
> WELL DONE DISPATCHES...


 
Dispatches have proof of targets?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2012)

BigTom said:


> well thankfully there is always 4OD and iPlayer


 
Daily Mail type ain't interested though

What's the BBC one like?  I'm still on Dispatches


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## BigTom (Jul 30, 2012)

started off well but iplayer fucked up and I'm watching it from the start again, lol.. first 10 minutes good though - man with empheczyma (sp? lung problem) got 0 points and passed on tribunal.  Too much Chris Grayling but had a welfare rights adviser saying he's had 100% success rate on appeals, contrasting the DWP claim of 30%.  Hopefully the second half of the program is as good.

The mail journalists etc. might well watch it tho and make them think again about what they are saying.


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## harpo (Jul 30, 2012)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Dispatches have proof of targets?


Twice on the secret filming, Atos staff stated the target was 12-13%.


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## BigTom (Jul 30, 2012)

GRAAAAAAAAYYYLLLIIINNGGG  man I don't know if I'd rather kill him in the face or IDS. Saying that his opinion of the high success rate of appeals is down to judges not looking hard enough to think of some kind of work someone can do. what a fucking arsehole cunting dickface.


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## Captain Hurrah (Jul 30, 2012)

Encouraging to see stuff like that, however limited.  But how long can people maintain prejudice?  Some can be pretty resilient.


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## harpo (Jul 30, 2012)

Oh fuck off fuck OFF Grayling. 

Tough love?


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## shagnasty (Jul 30, 2012)

Saw the end of panorama will catch up later .But it didn't look good for atos or dwp,government.Even the architects of scheme now have doubts


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## BigTom (Jul 30, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Encouraging to see stuff like that, however limited. But how long can people maintain prejudice? Some can be pretty resilient.


 
Given the amount of time the opposite kind of propaganda has been going on, it'll take some time I think, but it's really encouraging to see not just 1 but 2 programs saying what disabled people have been saying.
I think there will be a fair number of people who see this and will come out against the WCA as it is, whilst still believing that there are loads of people faking it, but that the assessment needs to be changed. I hope so anyway.


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

TV went on the blink for Panorama, but saw both lords of poverty, prof's gregg and harrington interviewed, defending the principles of the test/benefit, etc, the worst bit was a welfare rights officer from the Maudsley who said one of here clients when being assessed and informing them of multiple overdoses, was asked  '' why aren't you dead?'

words fucking fail me..


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

harpo said:


> Twice on the secret filming, Atos staff stated the target was 12-13%.


 

needs to be up YT, BBC one said it couldn't say for certain, wrong, the Atos employee on dispatches was clear and a credible source...


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## BigTom (Jul 30, 2012)

I haven't finished watching it yet - in between the poverty pimps are stories from people found fit to work, including stephen hill who died 39 days after assessment.  The commentary has been - imo - very much against atos/wca so far - to me it's taking a line of "there are scroungers, but it's a small number and look at these people who can't work and are getting zero points, can that be right?".  I don't know how much of that is confirmation though.  They are explaining WRAG at the moment.. here is paul gregg that I've not seen before..


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Given the amount of time the opposite kind of propaganda has been going on, it'll take some time I think, but it's really encouraging to see not just 1 but 2 programs saying what disabled people have been saying.
> I think there will be a fair number of people who see this and will come out against the WCA as it is, whilst still believing that there are loads of people faking it, but that the assessment needs to be changed. I hope so anyway.


 
Yes, it was the seminal Panorama doc 'Britain on the sick' which helped pave the way for the reforms...

and of course it was Gregg and Harrington's friends, NL who instigated them including Purnell who is a mate of Greggs*...

Professor Paul Gregg is responsible for the new sanctions regime instigated by Purnell, if we had had a decent student movement there would have been protests at his Uni...


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/

Sue Marsh is now tweeting and blogging on this, can people do the same....


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## Libertad (Jul 30, 2012)

BigTom said:


> GRAAAAAAAAYYYLLLIIINNGGG  man I don't know if I'd rather kill him in the face or IDS. Saying that his opinion of the high success rate of appeals is down to judges not looking hard enough to think of some kind of work someone can do. what a fucking arsehole cunting dickface.


 
Maiming either of these two cuntz is now going to be my main goal in whatever life I have left. I'm going to prove Grayling right in so much as I am capable of doing one last job.


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## harpo (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> needs to be up YT, BBC one said it couldn't say for certain, wrong, the Atos employee on dispatches was clear and a credible source...


All the more credible because they *thought* they were training new medical staff.


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## Greebo (Jul 30, 2012)

Watched both programmes back to back, now I really need a drink.


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/c...hink-twice-before-opposing-necessary-reforms/

That cow Odone in the telegraph...

oh, and will be become common, she is the first to use the example of the para-olympics to bash disabled claimants...


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

'Hows about the state parasites show some empathy for their hosts'

some twat posted this, hard to believe there are such creatures


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## Bernie Gunther (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/c...hink-twice-before-opposing-necessary-reforms/
> 
> That cow Odone in the telegraph...
> 
> oh, and will be become common, she is the first to use the example of the para-olympics to bash disabled claimants...


 
Strong image used with the story though.


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/c...hink-twice-before-opposing-necessary-reforms/
> 
> That cow Odone in the telegraph...
> 
> oh, and will be become common, she is the first to use the example of the para-olympics to bash disabled claimants...


Wish someone would pie her in the face. Concrete pie that is.


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

I think the gubmnt will seriously look at the appeals process now and find a way to hobble the judges.. as well as hobble the whole appeals process too that is.


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## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I think the gubmnt will seriously look at the appeals process now and find a way to hobble the judges.. as well as hobble the whole appeals process too that is.


 
they are trying to already.

1. the referal back to the dwp before appeal, no time limit on their decision

2. complete removal of all benefits while alleal is being processed. bakunin's dla appeal took over a year. can't imagine esa appeals during the same period were all that faster. this effectively removes the right of appeal from anyone without independent means of support


only possible upside is that this will likely be shot down eventually by the judiciary. they don't like any gvt trying to limit access to even a quasi judicial sustem like the benefit appeals.


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2012/jul/30/tv-review-panorama-disabled-faking
'This Panorama examining the new assessment tests for disability benefits was a 30-minute howl of despair'


Lucy Mangan has reviewed it in the G, good humane review, though usually afaik she is not known for sympathy to claimants, etc..


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

Indeed toggle. I realise the appeals process is snowed under yet there's nothing being done to aleviate that. Makes me wonder if they have a 'target'  of how many won't make it. 

Greyskull and Atos say there are no 'targets' but I'm sure they are using other words making this a sort of pathetic truth.


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

*@tomgreatrexmp After @bbcpanorama and @C4Dispatches tonight, MPs have chance 2 tackle DWP Minister on #wca #Atos in Parli debate on 4 Sept.*


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## Jackobi (Jul 30, 2012)

toggle said:


> they are trying to already.


 
Already a part of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 - Clause 102. And on the cards for April 2013, effectively ending the current 'ease' of claiming an assessment rate of ESA during the appeal.


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## wtfftw (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2012/jul/30/tv-review-panorama-disabled-faking
> 'This Panorama examining the new assessment tests for disability benefits was a 30-minute howl of despair'
> 
> 
> Lucy Mangan has reviewed it in the G, good humane review, though usually afaik she is not known for sympathy to claimants, etc..


Dunno about.known for it but I'm sure she's been sympathetic in a column before. Will dig out a link when I can.


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> *@tomgreatrexmp After @bbcpanorama and @C4Dispatches tonight, MPs have chance 2 tackle DWP Minister on #wca #Atos in Parli debate on 4 Sept.*


 
how many will though?


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

' BBC programmes on the subject is that it was co-directed_ by a Disabled woman _- Kate Ansell - who I used to talk with regularly. She was a contributor to BBC's Ouch website, which for many of us was a rallying point. No surprise that the BBC D-G closed the site and messageboard down.'


revealing comment on CIf, i thought it was so different , here was someone who knows what they are talking about...


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## ShiftyBagLady (Jul 30, 2012)

Christina Odone says in that article '...their prized autonomy comes at a price'.
So there you have it disabled people. If you want autonomy, if you want security and support then you will have to pay the price. Though the price may be your dignity; it may be intrusive and objectifying. Iit may be your health, it might cause you considerable stress and despair and force you into occupations your health cannot sustain but they will give you your autonomy so long as you comply.

I don't want to live in this country anymore  These people make me sick to my stomach.


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## wtfftw (Jul 30, 2012)

wtfftw said:


> Dunno about.known for it but I'm sure she's been sympathetic in a column before. Will dig out a link when I can.


http://m.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyl...ety-lucy-mangan?cat=lifeandstyle&type=article


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## harpo (Jul 30, 2012)

Yeah blah blah autonomy, dignity, work is good for you.

And yet you've fucking closed Remploy, you vile hypocritical cunts


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## Libertad (Jul 30, 2012)

"If you're no longer a viable wealth creating unit then why should capital bother to subsidise you?" Says Grayling.


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 30, 2012)

Does work make sick people better? 



> You often hear this bizarre phase turned into a jingo by the Tories when they shout out that “Work makes you better” ! You think, I know he must be speaking about certain types of illnesses, but when you realise this phase is applied Carte Blanche to every kind of conceivable and killer diseases that human beings suffer from, one has to really start seriously questioning the wisdom and the intelligence of a person uttering this in a parrot like fashion.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Jul 30, 2012)

Even if work does improve feelings of well being, increase mobility and widen your circle of support (that would be an excellent therapy for people with chronic conditions if it were true, show me some studies please) it cannot possibly apply to people with degenerative and fatal diseases. Or chemo patients.
It's an ignorant, stupid thing to say.


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

wtfftw said:


> http://m.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyl...ety-lucy-mangan?cat=lifeandstyle&type=article


 

Ok, but i think it was before she had her ephinany, anyway take back my comment...


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 30, 2012)




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## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Does work make sick people better?


 
it can do. i've got a long history of depressive episides and i'm better off now than i was before, but it took me a long time to get there and had i been under the kind fo stress bakunin was under for his appeal, i'd never had got there.workbeyond your current capabilities or starve is never going to help anyone. ease ypurself into a place that accepts you for who you are, at your own pace could achieve far better results for those capable.

what is always ignored is how willing work is to accept anyone different. I think it is significantly easier in some regions than others.


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## Frumious B. (Jul 30, 2012)

Don't know if this has been mentioned before but I would recommend anyone claiming ESA or DLA to subscribe to http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/  All the info you need, provided by specialist barristers.


----------



## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Don't know if this has been mentioned before but I would recommend anyone claiming ESA or DLA to subscribe to http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ All the info you need, provided by specialist barristers.


 
mentioned before, but always welcome to be repeted IMO.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 30, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Don't know if this has been mentioned before but I would recommend anyone claiming ESA or DLA to subscribe to http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ All the info you need, provided by specialist barristers.


 
I don't know why they charge though, the people who need their services most are those least able to afford them. Me for instance.


----------



## Frumious B. (Jul 30, 2012)

How could they do it for free? It's not a hobby, it's their job. It saves people lots of money and you can get a refund if it doesn't help.


----------



## wtfftw (Jul 30, 2012)

I think local libraries can have membership.


----------



## harpo (Jul 30, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


>




He said he was considering desperate measures. Nobody picked up on that. Anyone dealing with vulnerable folks should be trained to recognise desperation. Instead it was an exhausting cycle of people who didn't understand him, didn't try to. Nobody even said 'hold on, I'll just pass you to someone who can help, and this is the help they can give you'. There were just breathy gasps as the poor untrained minimum wage call centre staff looked for the script or worked out who they could pass it onto next. The best they could possibly do was to finish on an aggressive hardfaced mer who spat 'put in in writing' before slaming the phone down.

Fail.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

Libertad said:


> I don't know why they charge though, the people who need their services most are those least able to afford them. Me for instance.


Libertad, if you can't afford the £15 sub at the moment (it's been a stretch for VP and I at times to pay for that and the DRH), you have only to ask one of the urbanites who currently subscribe and they'll look up whatever it is that you need to know.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/c...hink-twice-before-opposing-necessary-reforms/
> 
> That cow Odone in the telegraph...
> 
> oh, and will be become common, she is the first to use the example of the para-olympics to bash disabled claimants...


 
Going on about autonomy ffs, benefits _enable _people to live autonomously. Mind you, Odone and those of her stripe know that, which is why they so resent the whole idea of social security. I know it's a bit pathetic to say this, but I do hope she gets paralysed in a car accident or somesuch and loses all mobility from the neck down so that she has to type her column with a kind of prod thing attached to a headband around her forhead. Might not look so smug in her byline pic then, eh?


----------



## Libertad (Jul 31, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Libertad, if you can't afford the £15 sub at the moment (it's been a stretch for VP and I at times to pay for that and the DRH), you have only to ask one of the urbanites who currently subscribe and they'll look up whatever it is that you need to know.


 
Thanks Greeble, that's very kind and I may have to take you up on that offer.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> How could they do it for free? It's not a hobby, it's their job. It saves people lots of money and you can get a refund if it doesn't help.


 
Barton Hill Advisory Service had  very good (and free) guides to incapacity and DLA. Mind you, that site's not been up for ages. Shame. I've gotta say, the idea of benefitsandwork charging doesn't really sit right with me either.


----------



## treelover (Jul 31, 2012)

Stop and Review the cuts to benefits" - Pat's petition. Please sign, numbers already going up tonight.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20968


----------



## Libertad (Jul 31, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> How could they do it for free? It's not a hobby, it's their job. It saves people lots of money and you can get a refund if it doesn't help.


 
They have information to help people in desperate circumstances and yet they want to charge you for it. You can't see anything wrong in that?


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Jul 31, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Don't know if this has been mentioned before but I would recommend anyone claiming ESA or DLA to subscribe to http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/  All the info you need, provided by specialist barristers.


What's this? A site with guides on assessment criteria and so forth?
One that charges £20 for the information?


----------



## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Thanks Greeble, that's very kind and I may have to take you up on that offer.


You'll want to speak to VP - he'll have more free time than me tomorrow.  BTW it's not kindness, it's solidarity.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Jul 31, 2012)

It's bloody desperate that they charge. Desperate and sad. Bloody hellfire.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> It's bloody desperate that they charge. Desperate and sad. Bloody hellfire.


Agreed, but accessing and using their material vastly improved the last DLA claim, and helped VP fill in his dad's Attendance Allowance form more than just relying on the Disability Rights Handbook (which reminds me, I need to order the new one) did.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Jul 31, 2012)

People should have the information freely available; it's not supposed to be a test of wits. 
I am glad that people on urbnsa share that information,I've just seen the ATOS medical assessment thread, it's good to have that support and advice.
People shouldn't be profiting off it though, that's a bit shit.
I was going to say that it puts others who don't have access to it at a disadvantage but then I reckon everybody gets theshitty end of the stick anyway.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> People should have the information freely available; it's not supposed to be a test of wits.
> I am glad that people on urbnsa share that information,I've just seen the ATOS medical assessment thread, it's good to have that support and advice.
> People shouldn't be profiting off it though, that's a bit shit.
> I was going to say that it puts others who don't have access to it at a disadvantage but then I reckon everybody gets theshitty end of the stick anyway.


FWIW the DRH is in most libraries, but you have to be mobile enough to get there.  CAB is free but you have to be mobile enough to get there.  If you can't use public transport, shelling out for your own copy and one annual subscription can be cheaper than the minicab fares.


----------



## Frumious B. (Jul 31, 2012)

Libertad said:


> They have information to help people in desperate circumstances and yet they want to charge you for it. You can't see anything wrong in that?


 It's sad, but blame the DWP for coming up with a 600 question DLA claim form which you can't fill in adequately without legal advice. How do you expect lawyers and their staff to work for nothing? They're working full time to keep up with all the changes to the rules and the tricks that ATOS get up to. They can't just publish the info they know of and then stop and go off and do paid work. They have to keep the site up to date. It's a colossal amount of research and they provide amazing detail on how to answer all the questions. If you had read their 'About Us' page you would know why they're not funded by councils or the government or charity. How do you expect them to live?


----------



## treelover (Jul 31, 2012)

'Black Triangle Campaign 

*WORK and Pensions Secretary Chris Grayling’s  contribution to tonight’s BBC Panorama programme, in which he catagorically states that there are no intrinsic or extrinsic targets in the DWP /ATOS Work Capability Assessment (WCA) regime, shows him to be either a liar or not in possessions of the facts. *
Dispatches’ excellent contribution this evening systematically discredits his claims showing, beyond reasonable doubt, that there are indeed internal targets of 12% .
Black Triangle, along with many other Disabled Peoples Organisations, join with the BMA in demanding an end to the WCA ‘with immediate effect’.
*We call for the immediate resignation of Chris Grayling. *
Neither he, nor the WCA is “fit for purpose.” 

*Dr. Stephen M. Carty MB ChB MRCGP DRCOG*
Member and Medical Adviser, Black Triangle Campaign.'


We need more outspoken doctors like this one,


----------



## Frumious B. (Jul 31, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> People should have the information freely available; it's not supposed to be a test of wits.
> I am glad that people on urbnsa share that information,I've just seen the ATOS medical assessment thread, it's good to have that support and advice.
> People shouldn't be profiting off it though, that's a bit shit.
> I was going to say that it puts others who don't have access to it at a disadvantage but then I reckon everybody gets theshitty end of the stick anyway.


The politicians have deliberately made it into a test of wits. They've constructed this maze that even a healthy, intelligent, motivated person would struggle to get through. And it's getting worse and worse every year. The suicide rate is going to shoot up, and the politicians will just shrug their shoulders. There are some good free advisers funded by central govt/councils/charity who can help individual claimants but their funding is being cut and they have to focus on the most in need, i.e. people with poor literacy or too disabled to write.

I feel the benefitsandwork people are doing a fantastic job of protecting vulnerable people from the state and the recession. They have lots of subscribers who say the service has made a huge difference. If you want to use their info without paying, have a read of the free areas of their site and PM me or one of the other subscribers your email address and we can send you the pdfs you want. Here's a summary. Maybe when you can afford to you'll subscribe if you want to. They're a limited company so you could always get their accounts from companies house and decide whether they are profiteers.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Thanks Greeble, that's very kind and I may have to take you up on that offer.


 
i'MA SUBSCRIBER


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> It's sad, but blame the DWP for coming up with a 600 question DLA claim form which you can't fill in adequately without legal advice. How do you expect lawyers and their staff to work for nothing? They're working full time to keep up with all the changes to the rules and the tricks that ATOS get up to. They can't just publish the info they know of and then stop and go off and do paid work. They have to keep the site up to date. It's a colossal amount of research and they provide amazing detail on how to answer all the questions. If you had read their 'About Us' page you would know why they're not funded by councils or the government or charity. How do you expect them to live?


 
I agree.  For under £20, if it helps you fill in the form correctly, it's worth it, and these are lengthy guides (ie. the mental health one alone is over 80 pages)


----------



## coltrane (Jul 31, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Grayling's got the fucking cheek to claim that "Reforming incapacity benefits is all about saving lives"?
> Jesus fucking Christ on a Honda 125, just how murderously-deluded is this turd in human form?


 
Well there's your "Compassionate Conservatism" in a nutshell. Force sick and disabled claimants to attend a (less than) half hour computerised, dumbed down and stressful assessment for sometimes complex ailments by barely qualified assessors box tickers working to targets that are oficially denied. Then reduce folk's income if they "pass" the assessment and hand them over to the tender mercies of the likes of A4E, who are crying out for sick and disabled folk to help boost their bottom line, to attend their "tailored support" programmes so that they can be bullied, hectored and bullshitted into non existent jobs. These schemes are a shining beacon of what "Compassionate Conservatism" is all about, because they miraculously cure the sick and give them freedom and independence by taking up the plentiful non-existent jobs that they might find difficult getting to, never mind actually having considerable difficulty actually doing.

Jesus Christ himself would be impressed with the miracles and compassion shown by the current enlightened crowd shower or wankers running things at the DWP.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> Stop and Review the cuts to benefits" - Pat's petition. Please sign, numbers already going up tonight.
> 
> http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20968


Signed it, months ago, but if anyone hasn't got around to it, please do.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 31, 2012)

Just watched both back to back.  Two words stood out. Toxic & Despicable.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 31, 2012)

I just finished the panorama one, interesting that Paul Gregg who designed the wrag or work programme (or both) was critical of how the wca is working out in practice to support disabled people into work or whatever sickening phrase he uses.  

Surely reform must be on the way for the wca (if not for the whole concept/ideology it is produced by) if the architects of it are backing away from it.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jul 31, 2012)

At work last night it was all mentioned in a copy of the Daily Star (lol) I picked up in the canteen, saying that it's a load of bollocks but only because of the way it is set up, to catch people who are faking layabouts anyway, is flawed and a drain on taxpayers' money. Obligatory quote from someone in the Tax Avoiders' Alliance.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 31, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Surely reform must be on the way for the wca (if not for the whole concept/ideology it is produced by) if the architects of it are backing away from it.


 
Your optimism is to be admired Tom. Let's not hold our breath eh?


----------



## treelover (Jul 31, 2012)

hardly anything in the media about the programmes and the killer fact, there are targets, the BBC news usually has a package on that nights edition on Panorama, i may have missed it but i don't recall one for this, i wonder why?

Nothing on Newsnight either, they really don't want to change the narrative do they?


----------



## treelover (Jul 31, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Your optimism is to be admired Tom. Let's not hold our breath eh?


 

they have just got rid of Harrington, who was no friend of claimants and will want an even more pliant adviser, there are rumours there will be no appeal for Universal Credit, etc..


----------



## mrs quoad (Jul 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> They also reveal a catalogue of dubious cases – including 20,000 alcoholics and drug addicts who pocket handouts costing £100million a year.


Christ.

Hay _et al.* _identify there to be 287,000 problem opiate and 198,000 problem crack cocaine users (2006:2) 

And that's not including people who're alcohol dependent!

Is the Express _seriously _claiming that well in excess of half a million drug and alcohol dependent people are fit to work?

Seriously?

*Hay G, Gannon M, MacDougall J, Millar T, Eastwood C and McKeganey N (2006) _National and Regional Estimates of the Prevalence of Opiate Use and / or Crack Cocaine Use 2005/06: A Summary of Key Findings. _Home Office Online Report 21/07


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 31, 2012)

Yep Mrs Q. Plans afoot to strip them of benefits if they don't go into rehab progs. There are just soo many rehab progs available a ain't there. No doubt a whole new opportunity for the usual gubmnt contracting suspects. A4emma drying out clinic anyone?


----------



## mrs quoad (Jul 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Yep Mrs Q. Plans afoot to strip them of benefits if they don't go into rehab progs. There are just soo many rehab progs available a ain't there. No doubt a whole new opportunity for the usual gubmnt contracting suspects. A4emma drying out clinic anyone?


No need for A4e.

Drug misuse already has a wealth of large, corporate organisations who've become experts in contract tendering over the last 10yrs.

As an aside, the only proposals I'd seen along those lines were suggesting that people could be compelled to attend one appointment at a drug service, for information and / or advice.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Hows about the state parasites show some empathy for their hosts'
> 
> some twat posted this, hard to believe there are such creatures


 
State parasites = politicians, hosts = us.

You gibbering spoon.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 31, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> No need for A4e.
> 
> Drug misuse already has a wealth of large, corporate organisations who've become experts in contract tendering over the last 10yrs.
> 
> As an aside, the only proposals I'd seen along those lines were suggesting that people could be compelled to attend one appointment at a drug service, for information and / or advice.


I've a feeling they may be looking at some kind of 'conditionality' * I hate that word* for those with addictions when the Universal Credit comes in. Given they seem to be making it all up as they go along I'm not certain at all what the blerts are up to to be honest. 

Perhaps once addicts are placed in the WRAG it'll be up to their WP to make sure they meet the terms of their agreement/conditionality.

Who knows what's going on with the 'black box' approach 'tween gubmnt and WPs


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Barton Hill Advisory Service had very good (and free) guides to incapacity and DLA. Mind you, that site's not been up for ages. Shame. I've gotta say, the idea of benefitsandwork charging doesn't really sit right with me either.


 
B & W isn't a business, and the main annual subscription is pretty much to cover the large amount of bandwidth the website and forums there consume. I don't begrudge the subscription purely because I get my moneys'-worth out of it.
Personally, I also e-mail copies of B & W's benefits guides to anyone who can't afford the subscription, but need the info.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> What's this? A site with guides on assessment criteria and so forth?
> One that charges £20 for the information?


 
As an annual subscription. As I've just says to FL, their website and forums consume a lot of bandwidth, and the subscription (which has always been about the same as long as I've subscribed) pays for that, for the many legal opinions B & W get on their guides before publishing them, and for professional research when needed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> People should have the information freely available; it's not supposed to be a test of wits.
> I am glad that people on urbnsa share that information,I've just seen the ATOS medical assessment thread, it's good to have that support and advice.
> People shouldn't be profiting off it though, that's a bit shit.
> I was going to say that it puts others who don't have access to it at a disadvantage but then I reckon everybody gets theshitty end of the stick anyway.


 
Just to point out, B & W isn't run for profit, it's one DLA claimant working full-time from home, and hiring in professional assistance as and when, and to be fair, he's done a shedload more to uncover stuff like the various handbooks and guides used by assessors than the mainstream disability orgs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> The politicians have deliberately made it into a test of wits. They've constructed this maze that even a healthy, intelligent, motivated person would struggle to get through. And it's getting worse and worse every year. The suicide rate is going to shoot up, and the politicians will just shrug their shoulders. There are some good free advisers funded by central govt/councils/charity who can help individual claimants but their funding is being cut and they have to focus on the most in need, i.e. people with poor literacy or too disabled to write.
> 
> I feel the benefitsandwork people are doing a fantastic job of protecting vulnerable people from the state and the recession. They have lots of subscribers who say the service has made a huge difference. If you want to use their info without paying, have a read of the free areas of their site and PM me or one of the other subscribers your email address and we can send you the pdfs you want. Here's a summary. Maybe when you can afford to you'll subscribe if you want to. They're a limited company so you could always get their accounts from companies house and decide whether they are profiteers.


 
IIRC it only eventually got set up as a limited company, as the DWP etc were making noises about suing the founder for libelling them, and it was the best way for him to stop them turning him over.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> they have just got rid of Harrington, who was no friend of claimants and will want an even more pliant adviser, there are rumours there will be no appeal for Universal Credit, etc..


 
What are the odds on Mansel Aylward to take over?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2012)

> Ministers are considering a complaint to Ofcom over the programme after it emerged that Dr Steve Bick, who conducted the undercover filming, is a Labour activist who stood at the last election.
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2181365/Out--Boss-incapacity-benefit-crackdown-called-humanity.html#ixzz22CztT6S3​


 
Obviously it's the Daily Mail so not much comment on the story or the facts


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 31, 2012)

So what if he has political leanings. His preferred political party are doing nothing to stop this rot.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 31, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> What are the odds on Mansel Aylward to take over?


Oh fuck................... It'll be someone similar anyway.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Oh fuck................... It'll be someone similar anyway.


 
Well quite, someone with the cocks of big pharma, big insurance and the government vying for their arsehole.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> So what if he has political leanings. His preferred political party are doing nothing to stop this rot.


 
Quite. I didn't see anything that evinced pro-Labour bias, and if he didn't exhibit a pro-Labour bias then this complaint, like so much the ConDems do, is spurious window-dressing that attempts to obscure the true subject under debate.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 31, 2012)

Fuck me this looks despicable too:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jul/31/minister-accused-video-disability-claimants



> The minister for employment, Chris Grayling, has been accused of trying to censor a Ministry of Justice courts service information video which sought to help and advise those appealing against decisions to have their disability and sickness benefit taken away.
> 
> A string of emails and letters between Grayling and Ministry of Justice civil servants, seen by the Guardian, appear to show that the minister for employment wanted to remove parts of the educational video produced by Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service which gave advice on how be to more successful during the appeals process. Emails sent from the minister's account complain about the video's "tone" and "negative comments" towards the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) even though the sections in dispute were agreed to be factually true.
> 
> ...


 
And lying toads into the bargain, another suprise.

The message would seem to be to promote as widely as possible that claimants must appear in person if they want to be twice as likely to win their appeal. Any ideas on how to push that?


----------



## BigTom (Jul 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> So what if he has political leanings. His preferred political party are doing nothing to stop this rot.



It was also stated in the program so it's not like anyone was deceived about it (and labour like this shit anyway)


----------



## treelover (Jul 31, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> State parasites = politicians, hosts = us.
> 
> You gibbering spoon.


 
er no, the poster is a well known r/


Frankie Jack said:


> I've a feeling they may be looking at some kind of 'conditionality' * I hate that word* for those with addictions when the Universal Credit comes in. Given they seem to be making it all up as they go along I'm not certain at all what the blerts are up to to be honest.
> 
> Perhaps once addicts are placed in the WRAG it'll be up to their WP to make sure they meet the terms of their agreement/conditionality.
> 
> Who knows what's going on with the 'black box' approach 'tween gubmnt and WPs


 
w libertarian, he is referring to people living off the taxpayer, its a regular meme...

there will be 'robust' conditionality for all claimants...


----------



## treelover (Jul 31, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jul/31/disabled-cuts-paralympic-games-atos
*disabled anti-cuts campaigners take the fight to the Paralympic Games*

Activists to protest against sponsorship of the Games by Atos, the private firm that carries out government fitness-for-work tests


----------



## treelover (Jul 31, 2012)

Btw, ATOS is a French company,  have campaigners made link there with disabled activists, unions, the left, etc?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 31, 2012)

Just spotted a good post by Bob Williams-Findlay on my farceboak that kinda explain how the WCA tests are set up/rigged so that targets are not needed.


> This is a functional-activities-assessment-tool. One of my arguments is that it is possible to "know" what kind of individuals are going to score high/low during an assessment.
> 
> This "knowledge" comes from existing 'data collection', therefore it is possible to use this "knowledge" to forecast the percentage of people who will be assessed who will pass or fail. My argument, which some are saying is pedantic, is that this process doesn't constitute "target setting" - the reason I'm saying this is because in my opinion a target is something one is trying to reach, these assessments ensures the outcome from the beginning - therefore no target needs to be set.
> 
> ...


----------



## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Just spotted a good post by Bob Williams-Findlay on my farceboak that kinda explain how the WCA tests are set up/rigged so that targets are not needed.


Thanks for the link.  so, basically a war of attrition against benefit claimants.  Why am I not surprised?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 31, 2012)

Sonia Poulton has put up a letter to Ed Milibland on google docs asking for people to sign it before it gets sent to him. 

I can't get it to work as yet but anyone interested might do.

Sonia doc.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> Btw, ATOS is a French company, have campaigners made link there with disabled activists, unions, the left, etc?


They have their own problems. Autism is regarded as a psychiatric condition in France.


----------



## shagnasty (Aug 1, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Sonia Poulton has put up a letter to Ed Milibland on google docs asking for people to sign it before it gets sent to him.
> 
> I can't get it to work as yet but anyone interested might do.
> 
> Sonia doc.


keep getting a too many ascesing this site message


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

shagnasty said:


> keep getting a too many ascesing this site message


Me too shagnasty. I've messaged her to put my name on it anyway before it goes off.


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2012)

'French Atos workers are disgusted and are quoted as saying

this shameful scandal should not stay in the shadows. Our duty as
employees of Atos members and trade unionists, is to inform you about
these events that affect disabled workers for whom on this side of the
Channel we have a special regard'​ 
The union in ATOS France apparently did put out a message, not sure of its provenance...


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2012)

just signed Sonia's letter, really weird, editing while someone else is as well!

and watching more people sign up in real time, though a enemy could sabotage it quite easily...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

The Paralympics will show us just how much disabled people can achieve, and shame despicable benefits cheats.

And the Daily Fail fuckwit journalists are off leading the pack in whipping up hatred for sick and disabled.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 1, 2012)

It doesn't say how long it took her to walk up to the top of the slide?

Furthermore, you don't need your feet to land in a pool of water. In fact, there's probably a lot of people who have walking difficulties who love swimming because it takes the weight of their feet.

Not saying if she was on the fiddle or not, but without the full story as to how long it took her to get up the slide and what exactly her disabilities were...

Dominique Jackson



> *The Paralympics will show us just how much disabled people can achieve*


 

Dominique might as well be asking why all normal able-bodied people aren't all athletes

TWAT


----------



## Greebo (Aug 1, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> The Paralympics will show us just how much disabled people can achieve, and shame despicable benefits cheats.
> 
> And the Daily Fail fuckwit journalists are off leading the pack in whipping up hatred for sick and disabled.


AFAIK a lot of those athletes were lucky enough to get early access to appropriate treatment and adaptations - it's not the same for everyone.  I love the way that journalists frequently use overachieving healthy supercrips to whip people who are long term sick or have fairly advanced stages of a degenerative condition.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 1, 2012)

Greebo said:


> AFAIK a lot of those athletes were lucky enough to get early access to appropriate treatment and adaptations - it's not the same for everyone. I love the way that journalists frequently use overachieving healthy supercrips to whip people who are long term sick or have fairly advanced stages of a degenerative condition.


 
and just because a lot of them have lost limbs doesn't necessarily mean they're in constant pain


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> The Paralympics will show us just how much disabled people can achieve, and shame despicable benefits cheats.
> 
> And the Daily Fail fuckwit journalists are off leading the pack in whipping up hatred for sick and disabled.


 
I felt moved to post a comment pointing out that Paralympians, wonderful as they are, represent a fairly narrow slice of disability, and that DWP error far exceeds fraud as a source of loss for the DWP.


----------



## panpete (Aug 1, 2012)

treelover said:


>


I can't see the images


----------



## panpete (Aug 1, 2012)

BigTom said:


> Given the amount of time the opposite kind of propaganda has been going on, it'll take some time I think, but it's really encouraging to see not just 1 but 2 programs saying what disabled people have been saying.
> I think there will be a fair number of people who see this and will come out against the WCA as it is, whilst still believing that there are loads of people faking it, but that the assessment needs to be changed. I hope so anyway.


What we need to do is to spread propaganda about the very people who have spent so much time spreading bad propeganda. E.g. the sun, and other tabloids.


----------



## panpete (Aug 1, 2012)

Jackobi said:


> Already a part of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 - Clause 102. And on the cards for April 2013, effectively ending the current 'ease' of claiming an assessment rate of ESA during the appeal.


Great. If I am found fit for work, there will be plenty time for me to default with my mortgage payments and get my house reposessed. , so I can sit on a nice waiting list while no one has any obligation to house me.
Homelessness in my late forties, just what I need to sort out my life.
How is that going to  help me?


----------



## panpete (Aug 1, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Does work make sick people better?


Work made me sicker


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2012)

people are now putting their conditions on the Sonia Poulton letter, it makes for very sad reading...


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2012)

“IS WORK GOOD FOR YOUR HEALTH AND WELL-BEING?”, by Gordon Waddell,

as far as I know, Waddell is a acolyte of the Wesseley School, named after the influential Psychiatrist Simon Wesseley (and considered corrupt by many) who along with Peter White advocates much physical illness is psycho-somatic in origin, esp M.E, and that basically sickness is an avoidance scheme from work, this is now the model the DWP largely use along with a bastardisation of the social model of disability..

VP may know more...


----------



## panpete (Aug 1, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Sonia Poulton has put up a letter to Ed Milibland on google docs asking for people to sign it before it gets sent to him.
> 
> I can't get it to work as yet but anyone interested might do.
> 
> Sonia doc.


 
There are too many people accessing this file right now. Some functionality may be disabled. Try again Dismiss
Thanks though, will keep trying.


----------



## panpete (Aug 1, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Me too shagnasty. I've messaged her to put my name on it anyway before it goes off.


Thanks Frankie, please could you tell me how I can do that. I see no address for sonia.
I also, dont know how to work twitter. ~(If that's got anything to do with it.

Thanks


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> The Paralympics will show us just how much disabled people can achieve, and shame despicable benefits cheats.
> 
> And the Daily Fail fuckwit journalists are off leading the pack in whipping up hatred for sick and disabled.


 

does anyone know a DM journo, (apart from Sonia) do they believe what they write, some are NUJ members are they not?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

She's on facebook too and realises the problems people are having. 

Sonia


----------



## toggle (Aug 1, 2012)

panpete said:


> Great. If I am found fit for work, there will be plenty time for me to default with my mortgage payments and get my house reposessed. , so I can sit on a nice waiting list while no one has any obligation to house me.
> Homelessness in my late forties, just what I need to sort out my life.
> How is that going to help me?


 

it's not.

if the aim actually was to get sick/disabled peole into work, ti's obviously self defeating.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

treelover said:


> does anyone know a DM journo, (apart from Sonia) do they believe what they write, some are NUJ members are they not?


I believe many are now freelance touting for any work they can get these dats treelover and editors are only after whatever copy sells and suits their agendas.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

If anyone can't acess the Sonia Doc or doesn't use farceboak or twatter yet wants to sign, please message me in complete confidence and I'll get your sigs onto the letter by hook or by crowbar.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 1, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> If anyone can't acess the Sonia Doc or doesn't use farceboak or twatter yet wants to sign, please message me in complete confidence and I'll get your sigs onto the letter by hook or by crowbar.


Pm sent


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

Thanks Greebo. xx


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

Benefit tests that are not fit for purpose



> *Recent media coverage has exposed the unfairness, inhumanity and high public cost of the government’s fit-for-work tests. It is time for rethink*
> It is common knowledge amongst disability campaigners and charities that the Work Capability Assessment – the test by which nearly 2 million Incapacity Benefit claimants are being reassessed for their eligibility for Employment and Support Allowance -  is fundamentally flawed.
> But yesterday this revelation made it out into the mainstream media. Thanks to a double whammy of investigative reporting by Channel 4′s Dispatches and BBCI’s Panorama programme, the bureaucratic incompetence, use of unofficial targets to reduce claimant numbers and sheer inhumanity of the WCA in dealing with very ill people was displayed for all to see, via undercover recordings and first-hand accounts.
> It was clear that at the heart of these problems is the DWP’s belief that people’s health can be assessed as objectively as a means test. As a result, the WCA strives for such fool-proof standardisation through tick-boxes that it leaves no room for professional discretion, and becomes so inflexible that it is fundamentally incompatible with the messy, subjective, fluctuating world of ill health and disability.



How many people and bodies, apart from Tory ministers and cash pocketing ATOS *and of course Tory fed right wing newspapers* really think the WCA is acceptable? More and more are finally waking up to the realisation of just how brutal and unacceptable it really is.


----------



## panpete (Aug 1, 2012)

I think its so brutal it's surreal.
I also think that atos's various actions are surreal as shown on dispatches yesterday.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 1, 2012)

treelover said:


> does anyone know a DM journo, (apart from Sonia) do they believe what they write, some are NUJ members are they not?


used to
no almost never
yes mainly
they hate their readership more than most as it goes the people who have the largest hatred for their readers are their journos because their readership swallows this crap unthinkingly... it's very odd...

the morning start on the other hand only ever had reporter1, reporter2 for their reporters contacts, velocomen comrades, you vill be reporter1, reporter2, ...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 1, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Benefit tests that are not fit for purpose
> 
> 
> 
> How many people and bodies, apart from Tory ministers and cash pocketing ATOS *and of course Tory fed right wing newspapers* really think the WCA is acceptable? More and more are finally waking up to the realisation of just how brutal and unacceptable it really is.


tbf atos was brought in by labour... they're who the civil service have used for their assessments for years don't for a second think that under labour this process would be in any way different.


----------



## panpete (Aug 1, 2012)

There is a blank ESA form you can get off the web to practice on.
I have all the B&W help books.
While I am waiting I should be practicing filling in the blank ESA form and I know my CAB will also help if I book an appt, but I just don't have the energy to do it.
It's not a simple case of can't be arsed, every time I think about doing it, I get so anxious because it is so complicated, and seems to have many trip-me-up type traps. Can only book CAB appt once form received.
I think our CAB have cut back on welfare advisors so there is a good chance I may get a volunteer and I don't know how well they are trained in benfits.
I just can't seem to find a way to get over this block.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> tbf atos was brought in by labour... they're who the civil service have used for their assessments for years don't for a second think that under labour this process would be in any way different.


Indeed Garf. I very much doubt anything will change the whole rigged rotten test at any point in the near future. Not going to stop me being a ranting activist while I've breath or a keyboard though.

This coming winter may see me stopped through lack of sufficient food and/or heat. Single on JSA with attachments for rent, CT and a two year old Social fund loan has me seriously struggling on £57 a week. 

I'm fit to work though with MS remitting, Fibro, depression, just discovered the itches I have are a type of eczema and I may be diabetic too. 

Looking forward to October when I'll be another £6 a week better off when the Social Fund loan is paid. LHA and DWP can't find where the Rent and CT arrears are actually from yet still continue to deduct anyway and LHA also expects me to pay £1 a week to each as well as not entitled to full Rent and CT benefits here it seems. 

£63 a week.. Can't fucking wait...


----------



## Greebo (Aug 1, 2012)

panpete said:


> There is a blank ESA form you can get off the web to practice on.
> I have all the B&W help books.
> While I am waiting I should be practicing filling in the blank ESA form and I know my CAB will also help if I book an appt, but I just don't have the energy to do it..


1) Start by filling in your NI, name and address on the form.  At least that bit doesn't need you to think about it too much.
2) Next, make yourself a mug of tea or coffee.
3) Now read as much of one B & W book as you can bear to, while drinking the tea/coffee.
4) After that, have a look at the bit of the form it matches, and begin to work through a rough copy of your answers, keeping the form and that bit of the booklet open so that you can keep looking between them.
5) Take frequent breaks, don't try to do more than half an hour without taking 5 minutes to do something else, and preferably something enjoyable.
6) Rinse and repeat as needed.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Aug 1, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Indeed Garf. I very much doubt anything will change the whole rigged rotten test at any point in the near future. Not going to stop me being a ranting activist while I've breath or a keyboard though.
> 
> This coming winter may see me stopped through lack of sufficient food and/or heat. Single on JSA with attachments for rent, CT and a two year old Social fund loan has me seriously struggling on £57 a week.
> 
> ...


fair play... 

I just hate the constant this is the fault of the previous administration bullshit but this really was, had Labour not tried to out Tory the Tories to look like it was doing something to fix a moral panic problem rather than not fixing a non-existent problem then the Tories wouldn't have had a leg up...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> fair play...
> 
> I just hate the constant this is the fault of the previous administration bullshit but this really was, had Labour not tried to out Tory the Tories to look like it was doing something to fix a moral panic problem rather than not fixing a non-existent problem then the Tories wouldn't have had a leg up...


It was just as I was experiencing serious health problems and getting diagnosed that Labours James Bastard Purnell was all over the media advocating his Welfare reforms. Many of us saw what the intentions were and had an idea what was coming. And come it did. 

Yes Labour are at the root of all these reforms. Sadly some of the more well known activists out there are blatant or even fully paid up Labour supporters. 

Only actual political party I've seen that is against the WRA and actually saying so and trying to do something is the SNP. 

For that alone they have my support as they may be the only ones that can make a diference to us north of the border.


----------



## panpete (Aug 1, 2012)

Greebo said:


> 1) Start by filling in your NI, name and address on the form. At least that bit doesn't need you to think about it too much.
> 2) Next, make yourself a mug of tea or coffee.
> 3) Now read as much of one B & W book as you can bear to, while drinking the tea/coffee.
> 4) After that, have a look at the bit of the form it matches, and begin to work through a rough copy of your answers, keeping the form and that bit of the booklet open so that you can keep looking between them.
> ...


I like that. I'll keep it and do it.
Now to find a blank ESA form.


----------



## panpete (Aug 1, 2012)

I thought I would post this.

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/20...journment-debate-announced-for-4th-september/

Sonias letter is on there. I dunno if the adjournment is good or bad. Good hopefully. Something has to give. My friend accompanied his friend to the CAB as he had been put on WRAG instead of support group. The advisor thinks things will change. The advisor is a welfare officer.


----------



## panpete (Aug 1, 2012)

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/20...ed-at-helping-disability-claimants-to-appeal/
Minister tried to censor helpful vid.


----------



## harpo (Aug 1, 2012)

Work in the mind of a Tory:  horny-handed son of toil whistling merrily at a job well done.

Work in the experience of most of the rest of us:  precarious conditions, management bullying, stupidly high targets, earnings barely enough to feed, clothe and shelter, no free time or space or money to think about who you could be or develop yourself. 

At least Mediaeval overlords didn't have to gall to tell the serfs they should be enjoying it.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

but.. but.. Greyskull and Scameron say it's "tough love" harpo. They only want the best from us 'stock' to benefit their big contract buddies.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 1, 2012)

Greebo said:


> 1) Start by filling in your NI, name and address on the form. At least that bit doesn't need you to think about it too much.
> 2) Next, make yourself a mug of tea or coffee.
> 3) Now read as much of one B & W book as you can bear to, while drinking the tea/coffee.
> 4) After that, have a look at the bit of the form it matches, and begin to work through a rough copy of your answers, keeping the form and that bit of the booklet open so that you can keep looking between them.
> ...


 

That's all very well Greebs, but when one section of guidance (Mental Health) is over 80 pages long, not a lot of it tends to stick 

My arms were fucked up, not so much from typing, but from scrolling through loads of other documents


----------



## panpete (Aug 1, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's all very well Greebs, but when one section of guidance (Mental Health) is over 80 pages long, not a lot of it tends to stick
> 
> My arms were fucked up, not so much from typing, but from scrolling through loads of other documents


Yeah, the thought of it makes me feel suddenly drained.


----------



## Cloo (Aug 2, 2012)

Finally got round to watching Panorama - I knew about all the people winning appeals, but I didn't realised people could get tested again after that, sometimes in a matter of weeks. It makes no sense at all. And surely it easily done, as well as cheaper and more humane, to clearly label the files those who have incurable degenerative disorders, and therefore will clearly not get better, and those who have a chronic illness when there is no reason to believe that the aspects that stop them working will improve, thereby saving everyone from repeated tests. Oh sorry, forgot, sense doesn't come into it.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 2, 2012)

One thing that Panorama didn't mention about the appeals. 
Someone is turned down at ATOS assessment then ATOS get paid.
At appeal the ATOS assessment is overruled but.....
ATOS _don't have to pay any money back following their error!!_


----------



## Greebo (Aug 2, 2012)

Cloo said:


> Finally got round to watching Panorama - I knew about all the people winning appeals, but I didn't realised people could get tested again after that, sometimes in a matter of weeks. It makes no sense at all. And surely it easily done, as well as cheaper and more humane, to clearly label the files those who have incurable degenerative disorders, and therefore will clearly not get better, and those who have a chronic illness<snip>


Oh but it makes sense. Just not the sense you or I want it to make.

It makes sense to slowly but surely hasten the death of unproductive people. If they commit suicide, or merely deteriorate sooner than they might have otherwise done, the bureaucrats can claim that *they did nothing of which to be ashamed*. Granted, it's a pity that those people have died (and more probably will die befeore the year is out), but they were already in a bad way, and now they're no longer suffering.

Why build gas chambers or death camps when it's cheaper (and easier to sweep under the carpet) to allow those people to die at home?


----------



## Greebo (Aug 2, 2012)

yardbird said:


> One thing that Panorama didn't mention about the appeals.
> Someone is turned down at ATOS assessment then ATOS get paid.
> At appeal the ATOS assessment is overruled but.....
> ATOS _don't have to pay any money back following their error!!_


*You What???????   *


----------



## Cloo (Aug 2, 2012)

Well, that explains a lot.

Tests were ridiculous too - it doesn't matter where you can move your arms and legs when asked. What might matter more is whether can you move repeatedly, many times over the course on the day. No 20-minute test can establish, for example, whether you can concentrate for a whole day. And even if you could test someone on standing up for an hour and they could do it, it wouldn't show you that they might then be exhausted/in pain and unable to do anything the next day as a result of the exertion.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 2, 2012)

Greebo said:


> *You What???????  *


 
You didn't know that ATOS still gets paid if their decision is overturned?


----------



## Greebo (Aug 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's all very well Greebs, but when one section of guidance (Mental Health) is over 80 pages long, not a lot of it tends to stick
> 
> My arms were fucked up, not so much from typing, but from scrolling through loads of other documents


I realise that, but IMHO the only way to tackle it is in small bites.  Too much at a time will be overwhelming, even if it doesn't wreck your arms and hands.  BTW anything longer than 2 A4 pages gets downprinted.  Far less tiring to read.  Anyway, VP used some of the money from the OU's Disabled Student Allowance to pay for a laser printer (and the toner & paper for it), might as well use it.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You didn't know that ATOS still gets paid if their decision is overturned?


No.  And if I didn't, the chances are that a lot of other people don't know either.


----------



## ericjarvis (Aug 2, 2012)

yardbird said:


> One thing that Panorama didn't mention about the appeals.
> Someone is turned down at ATOS assessment then ATOS get paid.
> At appeal the ATOS assessment is overruled but.....
> ATOS _don't have to pay any money back following their error!!_


 
It's true of just about all the outsourced public administration contracts. To a large extent because most of them are only seriously profitable if the provider can regularly fuck up big time with no penalty.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 2, 2012)

Greebo said:


> No. And if I didn't, the chances are that a lot of other people don't know either.


It was something that I wondered a long time ago and asked the MS Society and then others about it.
Lots of 'Surely not?'
It also gives ATOS a financial Incentive to turn down as many as poss.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 2, 2012)

> *Atos wins £400m deals to carry out disability benefit tests*
> 
> Firm unexpectedly wins two contracts despite disquiet over handling of work capability assessment, while G4S misses out


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/aug/02/atos-disability-benefit-tests


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 2, 2012)

Good that G4s is ousted. Bad that the same shit is ongoing even with changes to descriptors. Dice will still be firmly loaded in gettng people off benefit regardless of the 'tough love' *SPIT* rhetoric.


----------



## Cloo (Aug 2, 2012)

Interesting blog here from Mind about working with DWP on descriptors for mental illness Obviously, they are wary of attaching their name to anything, but I can see why they would think it was worth at least trying. Doesn't sound as though they'll have much time to sort it though. Good luck to them anyway.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 2, 2012)

Cloo said:


> Interesting blog here from Mind about working with DWP on descriptors for mental illness Obviously, they are wary of attaching their name to anything, but I can see why they would think it was worth at least trying. Doesn't sound as though they'll have much time to sort it though. Good luck to them anyway.


 
The other thing with this is that they will be testing the new descriptors (and modifying them as they go along) to provide data/evidence for them to be changed.
Only IDS and Grayling have completely ignored all the evidence on workfare that says it doesn't work.  So even if these tests come back and they say that the new descriptors give better outcomes, don't hold your breath for them to actually respond to that in the obvious and sensible way - especially if it means more people will get put into the support group.


----------



## Cloo (Aug 2, 2012)

Indeed.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 2, 2012)

Cloo said:


> Interesting blog here from Mind about working with DWP on descriptors for mental illness Obviously, they are wary of attaching their name to anything, but I can see why they would think it was worth at least trying. Doesn't sound as though they'll have much time to sort it though. Good luck to them anyway.


Best comment yet on that blog.



> *Saltley Gates* replied on 2 Aug 2012 at 10:23
> "Are you going to be asking searching questions that demand answers from ATOS regarding the footage?
> Can we have a definitive comment on the specific failings the undercover footage exposed, i.e. no more than 12% to be put into the support group regardless?
> What about the misinformation we are given concerning these things?
> ...


My bolding.


----------



## toggle (Aug 2, 2012)

Greebo said:


> No. And if I didn't, the chances are that a lot of other people don't know either.


 
it does make me wonder how much they bunged to whom to get that into their contract


----------



## toggle (Aug 2, 2012)

Greebo said:


> I realise that, but IMHO the only way to tackle it is in small bites. Too much at a time will be overwhelming, even if it doesn't wreck your arms and hands. BTW anything longer than 2 A4 pages gets downprinted. Far less tiring to read. Anyway, VP used some of the money from the OU's Disabled Student Allowance to pay for a laser printer (and the toner & paper for it), might as well use it.


 
good use for it.that's what i would have done had i qualified for it early enough to actually get anyhting


----------



## toggle (Aug 2, 2012)

yardbird said:


> It was something that I wondered a long time ago and asked the MS Society and then others about it.
> Lots of 'Surely not?'
> It also gives ATOS a financial Incentive to turn down as many as poss.


 
wonder if this is how the gvt can claim they don't set targets. they incentivise the provider to set as low a target as they can get away with, while giving the gvt the deniability.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 2, 2012)

No, they can claim they don't set targets by calling these statistical norms - and it does make sense. If an HCP was saying 0% or 100% of the people they see was fit for work you'd think something was off there (especially if it was 100%) and want someone to look into it.
The problem here is that they've plucked a figure out of the air, rather than letting things develop and see what % is the statistical norm for HCPs finding people fit to work/WRAG/support group.
It's a number that is no doubt based on their financial aims for reducing IB/ESA claims or on some kind of faith that 11% is the right number for the support group because obviously most people on the sick are faking it, the daily mail said so.

e2a of course by setting the descriptors in the way they have it's designed to put as few people as possible in the support group so any statistical norm that comes out of it does not necessarily reflect the reality of the number of people who should be in the support group.. it's pretty telling that iirc 29% of people go into the support group even with the descriptors as they are.  
I do think that IDS/Grayling actually believe the propaganda of the past many, many years about scroungers and think there must be loads of them, even though the evidence from the WCA process so far is that it's not true and where people were on IB who shouldn't have been it's because Thatcher used it as a way to reduce unemployment figures.


----------



## panpete (Aug 2, 2012)

Greebo said:


> I realise that, but IMHO the only way to tackle it is in small bites. Too much at a time will be overwhelming, even if it doesn't wreck your arms and hands. BTW anything longer than 2 A4 pages gets downprinted. Far less tiring to read. Anyway, VP used some of the money from the OU's Disabled Student Allowance to pay for a laser printer (and the toner & paper for it), might as well use it.


What does downprinted mean please?


----------



## Greebo (Aug 2, 2012)

panpete said:


> What does downprinted mean please?


Downloaded and printed more or less as soon as it's downloaded.


----------



## panpete (Aug 2, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Downloaded and printed more or less as soon as it's downloaded.


Thanks. Does this mean that the DWP/Atos won't read more than two A4 sheets of extra information attached to an esa50 form or have I mis-understood?

Thanks


----------



## Greebo (Aug 2, 2012)

panpete said:


> Thanks. Does this mean that the DWP/Atos won't read more than two A4 sheets of extra information attached to an esa50 form or have I mis-understood?
> 
> Thanks


 You misunderstood.

I meant that I find it too tiring to read anything longer than 2 pages of A4 when it's on a computer screen.  Too much scrolling, flicker,and glare.


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2012)

More I read about the DWP, ATOS, Grayling and co, they really are 'the lords of poverty'


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2012)

btw, wish there was a way to find out who sabotaged Sonia's open letter, scum...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 3, 2012)

Repeated tonight (this morning) on BBC2


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> btw, wish there was a way to find out who sabotaged Sonia's open letter, scum...


What?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> btw, wish there was a way to find out who sabotaged Sonia's open letter, scum...


It's published in the Fail.  The letter is back on Google Docs but has links to other sites to sign it.

Edited to add the Fail link


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> What?


The google doc had parts of the letter deleted then the whole thing crashed. May have been the weight of hits but doesn't explain missing parts.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2012)




----------



## panpete (Aug 3, 2012)

Greebo said:


> You misunderstood.
> 
> I meant that I find it too tiring to read anything longer than 2 pages of A4 when it's on a computer screen. Too much scrolling, flicker,and glare.


Thanks.
I find scrolling really hard too. Especially if I am reading a web page with two scroll bars, like in a frame.
I also can't concentrate to read really long and detailed articles.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 3, 2012)

One question that I have is why was an IT company - a french IT company - given the contract to force people into work?


----------



## panpete (Aug 3, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> One question that I have is why was an IT company - a french IT company - given the contract to force people into work?


Maybe the board members of Atos are also buddies of the government.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> One question that I have is why was an IT company - a french IT company - given the contract to force people into work?


AFAIK.. It's a very convoluted relationship between Atos Healthcare CEOs, UNUM CEOS, *both called O'donnell* Government ministers and the plan to deny disability and get the sick and disabled off benefits using a computer program to test the victims with Biopsychosocial models flying around in the mix.

BLACK TRIANGLE go some way to explaining it. Add in James Purnell, Lord David Fraud, a think tank or three, and bobs yer uncle.


----------



## panpete (Aug 3, 2012)

*UK: Official guidelines to deal with suicide by the jobless*

I know this isn't to do with panorama or dispatches but it is an alarming read about the DWP and the welfare cuts.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/may2011/suic-m18.shtml


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 3, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> One question that I have is why was an IT company - a french IT company - given the contract to force people into work?


 
A lot of these contractor companies were originally IT/business services companies. This is just an expansion on that into partial *direct* provision of services rather than staying strictly in a middleman role.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> A lot of these contractor companies were originally IT/business services companies. This is just an expansion on that into partial *direct* provision of services rather than staying strictly in a middleman role.


Exactly VP. Turning various areas of Gubmnt responsibility into a (private) business structure where profit is maximised before benefit. This, I feel, is where the old addage "Private taking up public slack" comes in.


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Best comment yet on that blog.
> 
> 
> My bolding.


 
wonder if that is 'Red Miner/North Miner' on CIF?, he is great..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

panpete said:


> *UK: Official guidelines to deal with suicide by the jobless*
> 
> I know this isn't to do with panorama or dispatches but it is an alarming read about the DWP and the welfare cuts.
> 
> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/may2011/suic-m18.shtml


Yeah there was a bit of a heehaw when that first came up. At that time I told my JC+ advisor I had suicidal thoughts when I'm off on a deep depression and it's only the courage and my lads that stop me, though, if I had the meds to hand it the time.. who knows. The stuffed shirt stiffened and had a splutter and came out with " but you're ok just now?"  It's bollocks.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> wonder if that is 'Red Miner/North Miner' on CIF?, he is great..


Aye he is eh.


----------



## panpete (Aug 3, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Yeah there was a bit of a heehaw when that first came up. At that time I told my JC+ advisor I had suicidal thoughts when I'm off on a deep depression and it's only the courage and my lads that stop me, though, if I had the meds to hand it the time.. who knows. The stuffed shirt stiffened and had a splutter and came out with " but you're ok just now?"  It's bollocks.


Facepalm indeed. Sorry to hear you were feeling so sad that you cannot tell me for sure you would not have taken an overdose if you had tablets to hand. Without sounding like the stuffed shirt at the DWP, I really do hope you are not feeling like that at the moment, and that you have support for times when you do.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

panpete said:


> Facepalm indeed. Sorry to hear you were feeling so sad that you cannot tell me for sure you would not have taken an overdose if you had tablets to hand. Without sounding like the stuffed shirt at the DWP, I really do hope you are not feeling like that at the moment, and that you have support for times when you do.


Thanks pp. Yeah I'm ok just now. It's winter when it gets bad. 18 hours darkness and watching every penny on the utility meters that use up half my benefit each week and trying to exist foodwise on what's left. Being ill, single, on JSA with attachments taken off of course means in the medias view I'm living it up with wall to wall flat screen holidays and an alky, fag smoking, drug addict with cars in the garge and all the mobile, ipod, home comforts that the average working family could never afford. 

The reality is £57 a week and mostly struggling to keep the cats bowl filled.


----------



## panpete (Aug 3, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Thanks pp. Yeah I'm ok just now. It's winter when it gets bad. 18 hours darkness and watching every penny on the utility meters that use up half my benefit each week and trying to exist foodwise on what's left. Being ill, single, on JSA with attachments taken off of course means in the medias view I'm living it up with wall to wall flat screen holidays and an alky, fag smoking, drug addict with cars in the garge and all the mobile, ipod, home comforts that the average working family could never afford.
> 
> The reality is £57 a week and mostly struggling to keep the cats bowl filled.


It's really sad to hear that in the 21st Century people are unsure if they can afford to feed themselves.
It's almost like reading dystopian fiction. I'm not saying what you're saying isn't true, what I mean is that the genuine level of suffering from members of our modern day society sounds like part of a fantasy horror or something, but it isn't, it's present-day reality.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 3, 2012)

panpete said:


> <snip>It's almost like reading dystopian fiction. I'm not saying what you're saying isn't true, what I mean is that the genuine level of suffering from members of our modern day society sounds like part of a fantasy horror or something, but it isn't, it's present-day reality.


Word. I can't bear to leave my copy of "Benefit" where it's visible, far too much of it has come to pass.


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2012)

'Estelle Haviland • 4 hours ago

Not so long ago, my aunty, who is profoundly deaf, totally blind (without any light perception), cannot speak and has a mild learning disability (childhood measles) was investigated for benefit fraud. Assessors left her in the middle of a busy car park to "see if she could make it back into the testing centre".
My mother saw this from the waiting room, and ran out rescue her.
She was so frightened, she was shaking.

I would say this borders on "torture""

found here:

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012...o-are-targeted-in-the-media-its-the-disabled/

In what way would descriptors help in this example?????Reply'


must have missed this comment when I read the blog, for gods sake how can this be tolerated in a decent society? 

This is not acceptable

Could someone send this to Guardian contacts, new statesman, owen jones other progressive media..


----------



## panpete (Aug 4, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Word. I can't bear to leave my copy of "Benefit" where it's visible, far too much of it has come to pass.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 4, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Estelle Haviland • 4 hours ago
> 
> Not so long ago, my aunty, who is profoundly deaf, totally blind (without any light perception), cannot speak and has a mild learning disability (childhood measles) was investigated for benefit fraud. Assessors left her in the middle of a busy car park to "see if she could make it back into the testing centre".
> My mother saw this from the waiting room, and ran out rescue her.
> ...


I caught that today just as I was up to my neck in stuff. Unbelievable aint it. Where do I know Estelle Haviland from............?


----------



## panpete (Aug 4, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Estelle Haviland • 4 hours ago
> 
> Not so long ago, my aunty, who is profoundly deaf, totally blind (without any light perception), cannot speak and has a mild learning disability (childhood measles) was investigated for benefit fraud. Assessors left her in the middle of a busy car park to "see if she could make it back into the testing centre".
> My mother saw this from the waiting room, and ran out rescue her.
> ...


I think Estelle should sell her story to the press.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2012)

panpete said:


> I think Estelle should sell her story to the press.


 
Yeah, if she gets enough money, she might not need ESA


----------



## panpete (Aug 4, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, if she gets enough money, she might not need ESA


SRSLY though, I do.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 4, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Estelle Haviland • 4 hours ago
> 
> Not so long ago, my aunty, who is profoundly deaf, totally blind (without any light perception), cannot speak and has a mild learning disability (childhood measles) was investigated for benefit fraud. Assessors left her in the middle of a busy car park to "see if she could make it back into the testing centre".
> My mother saw this from the waiting room, and ran out rescue her.
> ...


 
fuck me.
anyway, I posted this on twitter this morning and I've never had so many comments coming back to me.. it's probably my 3rd most retweeted tweet (behind one about workfare in february when it was a huge national news story and one from ukuncut, both of which made "top tweet" status which I don't know how it happens tbh, but both were tweets on very busy hashtags which this isn't).
Shiv Malik has been tweeted at so he should see the story, but I think someone from the indy is most likely to be able to follow this up as they may have contact details for the person who commented.

e2a I've also tweeted to Anne Begg MP who wrote the article and an indy journo I've spoken to before about ukuncut stuff, so hopefully there will be some follow up on this.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 4, 2012)

I'm just watching the panorama. It says that last year between january and august an average of 32 people that the DWP had ruled fit to work died _every week_. That, if true, if fucking scandalous.


----------



## panpete (Aug 4, 2012)

More deaths = less money spent on public spending.
The welfare reforms are totally devoid of any human element.
The people dying are not related to, or are not friends of the ministers in charge of welfare so they don't care.
Maye the welfare reforms are a type of 'cull' to the poor population. Either deaths from lack of care, or suicide from total despair and inability to live in such a way any longer.
It's hard for me to grasp just how ruthless and heartless they are.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 4, 2012)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I'm just watching the panorama. It says that last year between january and august an average of 32 people that the DWP had ruled fit to work died _every week_. That, if true, if fucking scandalous.


 
http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2012/04/32-die-a-week-after-failing-in.html



> *We've used the Freedom of Information Act to discover that, between January and August last year, 1,100 claimants died after they were put in the "work-related activity group".*
> 
> This group - which accounted for 21% of all claimants at the last count - get a lower rate of benefit for one year and are expected to go out and find work.
> 
> ...


 
(my emphasis)


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 4, 2012)

Quick calculation suggests that with a sample of 730,000 at various stages and types of ESA a figure of 8000 deaths a year across all types is about 1:90 but obviously that includes the people who were so sick that even those bastards at ATOS couldn't justify kicking them off 'support' ESA. The 'work related activity group' figure of 1100 deaths in one years for 21% of the total would be 1:139.

The annual chance of death for _all_ adults of working age looks like it's around 1:800 or so ... (guessing that number by looking at the curve here, anyone have a better figure?)

Paging Kabbes (I'm guessing he's going to know how to best interpret this kind of data)


----------



## BigTom (Aug 4, 2012)

The important figure there is the WRAG group one, but really it would be the fit-to-work one that would be most telling, except of course they don't give those figures.

Kabbes isn't around anymore afaik  ymu, Mrs Quoad and umm.. equationgirl i think are also statisticians. 

I'm not sure how much real meaning you can get out of the statistic tbh.  You'd expect people who are put in the wrag group to have a higher death rate than the whole population as well.

If you had a figure for those declared fit-for-work you could compare that directly with the population as a whole, and expect it to be the same.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 4, 2012)

BigTom said:


> The important figure there is the WRAG group one, but really it would be the fit-to-work one that would be most telling, except of course they don't give those figures.
> 
> Kabbes isn't around anymore afaik  ymu, Mrs Quoad and umm.. equationgirl i think are also statisticians.
> 
> ...


 
Yep, would be a very useful thing for some researchers to produce a 'declared fit for work' figure, because I think we might reasonably predict that it would show a big difference from the 'all people of working age' figure.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 4, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Estelle Haviland • 4 hours ago
> 
> Not so long ago, my aunty, who is profoundly deaf, totally blind (without any light perception), cannot speak and has a mild learning disability (childhood measles) was investigated for benefit fraud. Assessors left her in the middle of a busy car park to "see if she could make it back into the testing centre".
> My mother saw this from the waiting room, and ran out rescue her.
> ...


Its definitely abuse. It looks like they were hoping she'd get run over. If that happened in a care home itd rightly be seen as abuse and could be investigated as such. I fail to see why being a so called assessor changes that.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 4, 2012)

Surprisingly, DWP don't keep any records of those kicked off ESA onto JSA at all. Quite a few have made noises about this but I don't think it's been taken up in any form. 

People like myself who would never pass a WCA as it stands or scrape into the WRAG through appeals.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 4, 2012)

Ah.. I've seen Estelle Haviland on twitter convos. Her account is locked down tight though.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 4, 2012)

ATOS the only ones to benefit from PM's reform of disability benefit 
Quite surprised by this article from Joan Byrnie of the Daily Record. Not looked at the comments yet though as they are generally worthy of typical red top rags.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I'm just watching the panorama. It says that last year between january and august an average of 32 people that the DWP had ruled fit to work died _every week_. That, if true, if fucking scandalous.


It is true - the Mirror did a massive investigation and uncovered it through Freedom of Information requests.

http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2012/04/32-die-a-week-after-failing-in.html

ETA: Beaten to it by BigTom!


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Quick calculation suggests that with a sample of 730,000 at various stages and types of ESA a figure of 8000 deaths a year across all types is about 1:90 but obviously that includes the people who were so sick that even those bastards at ATOS couldn't justify kicking them off 'support' ESA. The 'work related activity group' figure of 1100 deaths in one years for 21% of the total would be 1:139.
> 
> The annual chance of death for _all_ adults of working age looks like it's around 1:800 or so ... (guessing that number by looking at the curve here, anyone have a better figure?)
> 
> Paging Kabbes (I'm guessing he's going to know how to best interpret this kind of data)


1100 people died in 8 months, not a year, so I think the ratio should be lower.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> ATOS the only ones to benefit from PM's reform of disability benefit
> Quite surprised by this article from Joan Byrnie of the Daily Record. Not looked at the comments yet though as they are generally worthy of typical red top rags.


 
I glanced at the first couple of comments.. then stopped.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> ATOS the only ones to benefit from PM's reform of disability benefit
> Quite surprised by this article from Joan Byrnie of the Daily Record. Not looked at the comments yet though as they are generally worthy of typical red top rags.


Someone kicked some arse and set them straight, by referencing the BBC and panorama programmes. Worth a read, there's only a handful.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

BigTom said:


> I glanced at the first couple of comments.. then stopped.


Nah, there's a good one almost at the end. 6th or 7th I think. Worth a read.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Nah, there's a good one almost at the end. 6th or 7th I think. Worth a read.


 
Yes  a nice longish considered one and this which is very much to the point



> Celia Lawton-Livingstone
> 
> 4:00 PM on 4/8/2012
> 
> ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Nah, there's a good one almost at the end. 6th or 7th I think. Worth a read.


Yeah. Had a look. The lowlife comments are being voted down and some reasonably good supportive comments on there. I did have a log in for the DR but was constantly being set on as a noob who knew nothing and I should shut up and fuck of.. After a few good verbals I got banned.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Yeah. Had a look. The lowlife comments are being voted down and some reasonably good supportive comments on there. I did have a log in for the DR but was constantly being set on as a noob who knew nothing and I should shut up and fuck of.. After a few good verbals I got banned.


You probably got banned for spelling words correctly


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 4, 2012)

I was the epitome of politeness and subtle piss taking eq. *well learned from years on Urb* Seems I was inciting the locals to foaming rages. 

Edited to add. Happens in the locals here too.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 4, 2012)

> *It’s not the benefit fraudsters who are targeted in the media, it’s the disabled*


 

From the comments section:



> ' Estelle Haviland • a day ago
> 
> Not so long ago, my aunty, who is profoundly deaf, totally blind (without any light perception), cannot speak and has a mild learning disability (childhood measles) was investigated
> for benefit fraud. Assessors left her in the middle of a busy car park to "see if she could make it back into the testing centre".
> ...


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> From the comments section:


Covered on the previous page Rutita, although I'm still appalled that assessors did this. Hope the complaints went in after her ordeal. Disabled people are not there to be mocked by others, and especially not as fodder for a car park-based obstacle course.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 4, 2012)

You know what that case reminds me of, when they used to 'swim' suspected witches, if they drowned they were innocent and if they survived they were guilty and could hang.
If the woman survived this literal ordeal she was fit for work and could starve with no benefit, if she failed and wandered under a bus it proves she was disabled but nevermind.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> You know what that case reminds me of, when they used to 'swim' suspected witches, if they drowned they were innocent and if they survived they were guilty and could hang.
> If the woman survived this literal ordeal she was fit for work and could starve with no benefit, if she failed and wanderedunder a bus it proves she was disabled but nevermind.


A not-unfair comparison, _angel_, especially given that most of those drowned as witches most likely weren't 

And there was me thinking we were only going back in history to Victorian England, not 17th century Scotland.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 4, 2012)

Lol, none of them were 'witches' as that's not possible in fact! Altho poisoning got lumped in with witchcraft sometimes. I digress tho!


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Covered on the previous page Rutita, although I'm still appalled that assessors did this. Hope the complaints went in after her ordeal. Disabled people are not there to be mocked by others, and especially not as fodder for a car park-based obstacle course.


I think we'd all like some verification that this actually did happen. I've never heard of anyone being taken out off the WCA rooms during the assessment at any point over the last 4/5 years.


----------



## Quartz (Aug 4, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Is the Express _seriously _claiming that well in excess of half a million drug and alcohol dependent people are fit to work?


 
I'm absolutely gobsmacked that there are over 500K drug and alcohol dependent people.




GarfieldLeChat said:


> tbf atos was brought in by labour...


 

So what? The Tories have now been in for 2 years. They've had ample opportunity to scrap or replace it. All they really need to do is announce that in response to concerns raised they'll be imposing an audit, and you bet your socks that things will suddenly improve. I mean, heaven forfend that ATOS should be found to be defrauding the taxpayer, what with the directors being personally liable...



treelover said:


> 'Estelle Haviland • 4 hours ago
> 
> Not so long ago, my aunty, who is profoundly deaf, totally blind (without any light perception), cannot speak and has a mild learning disability (childhood measles) was investigated for benefit fraud. Assessors left her in the middle of a busy car park to "see if she could make it back into the testing centre".
> My mother saw this from the waiting room, and ran out rescue her.
> ...


 
Bollocks to torture; this is putting someone deliberately in harm's way. That's attempted murder.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 4, 2012)

Well we'd all like to believe it isn't true.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 4, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Well we'd all like to believe it isn't true.


I don't believe or disbelieve that a blind woman was taken from her assessment to a carpark and left there to find her way back either with or without an assessor observing. I would like to see evidence though that this may have happened and that people are taken out of the room where their assessment is taking place for whatever reason.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> A not-unfair comparison, _angel_, especially given that most of those drowned as witches most likely weren't
> 
> And there was me thinking we were only going back in history to Victorian England, not 17th century Scotland.


Workfare is outdoor relief by another name imo. People have it wrong when they talk of the workhouse.
Its going back before that.
Wasn't there some tory cow who wanted the elizabethen poor laws re enacted?
That's what's happening IMO


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I think we'd all like some verification that this actually did happen. I've never heard of anyone being taken out off the WCA rooms during the assessment at any point over the last 4/5 years.


True - at the moment (and I include myself in this) it's outrage over third-hand information.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I don't believe or disbelieve that a blind woman was taken from her assessment to a carpark and left there to find her way back either with or without an assessor observing. I would like to see evidence though that this may have happened and that people are taken out of the room where their assessment is taking place for whatever reason.


 
She was being investigated for fraud so this would have been DWP though Frankie J.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> 1100 people died in 8 months, not a year, so I think the ratio should be lower.


 
Ok, didn't spot that.

In which case, about 1:92?

So if ATOS puts you in the 'work related activity' group, it would appear that you're roughly 10x more likely to die that year than the average person of working age.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Ok, didn't spot that.
> 
> In which case, about 1:92?
> 
> So if ATOS puts you in the 'work related activity' it would appear that you're roughly 10x more likely to die that year than the average person of working age.


An atos assessment is pretty bad for the health then, regardless of illness.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 4, 2012)

Libertad said:


> She was being investigated for fraud so this would have been DWP though Frankie J.


Ah.. so it wasn't a WCA this happened at?


----------



## BigTom (Aug 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Ah.. so it wasn't a WCA this happened at?


 
No, this was benefit fraud investigations.. lots of people have made the same mistake on twitter today so you're far from alone.

And hopefully the indy will be able to contact Estelle Havilland (who has both a facebook and twitter feed, the fb linked from the indy profile, so she is definitely a real person), and follow up on this story.  I'll let you know if either Anne Begg MP who wrote the blog or the indy journo get back to me about it.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Ah.. so it wasn't a WCA this happened at?


 
Not the way I read it.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 4, 2012)

BigTom said:


> No, this was benefit fraud investigations.. lots of people have made the same mistake on twitter today so you're far from alone.
> 
> And hopefully the indy will be able to contact Estelle Havilland (who has both a facebook and twitter feed, the fb linked from the indy profile, so she is definitely a real person), and follow up on this story. I'll let you know if either Anne Begg MP who wrote the blog or the indy journo get back to me about it.


Not that because it wasn't a WCA makes what they did any more palatable Tom. Thanks for clearing up the confusion on my part.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 4, 2012)

Of course not, but for once ATOS isn't at fault, lol.. it's the DWP directly this time.


----------



## mrs quoad (Aug 4, 2012)

Quartz said:


> I'm absolutely gobsmacked that there are over 500K drug and alcohol dependent people.


Conservative estimate, tbf. You could get pretty close to that with heroin / cocain alone. 

http://www.coolgeography.co.uk/GCSE/AQA/Population/Population Pyramids/Population Pyramids.htm

^^^ suggests <8m people <20yrs old. 

So 52m people, 500k'd be under 1%. Which strikes me as distinctly low.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 4, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Conservative estimate, tbf. You could get pretty close to that with heroin / cocain alone.
> 
> http://www.coolgeography.co.uk/GCSE/AQA/Population/Population Pyramids/Population Pyramids.htm
> 
> ...


Are government just focussing on those in receipt of benefit tho Mrs Q?


----------



## Quartz (Aug 4, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> So 52m people, 500k'd be under 1%. Which strikes me as distinctly low.


 
I do realise it's just under 1%. That still strikes me as alarmingly high.


----------



## mrs quoad (Aug 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Are government just focussing on those in receipt of benefit tho Mrs Q?


The figures originally quoted were about 20k benefit claimers. So the other 480k (minimum).....


----------



## panpete (Aug 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Surprisingly, DWP don't keep any records of those kicked off ESA onto JSA at all. Quite a few have made noises about this but I don't think it's been taken up in any form.
> 
> People like myself who would never pass a WCA as it stands or scrape into the WRAG through appeals.


It is probably no accident that no such records were kept because they, no doubt knew, that the death rate for those seen as fit for work would be much higer. Public knowledge of such a high number of deaths would cause too much bad publicity for them.
Not keeping records means that we can never know the amount of deaths in people market fit for work.

Personally, having worked in an office with computerized admin, I find it hard to believe that the DWP did not keep statistics of people marked fit for work who died, because surely if they can pull a list of people on ESA who died, then, they can also pull a list of people on JSA who died, and from that data, you can extract a list of all JSA claimants who have been through the WCA.

I think, it's more like the DWP have these stats, but they are refusing to release them, for reasons stated above.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I think we'd all like some verification that this actually did happen. I've never heard of anyone being taken out off the WCA rooms during the assessment at any point over the last 4/5 years.


 
W/R/T IB assessments, each time I had an IB medical (Sema rather than Atos, IIRC) I was escorted from the "consulting rooms" and asked to climb a short flight of stairs, and I knew several people who independently related the same thing to me without prompting, so I'm open to the possibility that it really happened.


----------



## ericjarvis (Aug 5, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Conservative estimate, tbf. You could get pretty close to that with heroin / cocain alone.
> 
> http://www.coolgeography.co.uk/GCSE/AQA/Population/Population Pyramids/Population Pyramids.htm
> 
> ...


 
However it should also be noted that the government generally give the figures as if there are no people at all who are both drug and alcohol dependent. In fact there's a considerable overlap.


----------



## treelover (Aug 5, 2012)

BigTom said:


> fuck me.
> anyway, I posted this on twitter this morning and I've never had so many comments coming back to me.. it's probably my 3rd most retweeted tweet (behind one about workfare in february when it was a huge national news story and one from ukuncut, both of which made "top tweet" status which I don't know how it happens tbh, but both were tweets on very busy hashtags which this isn't).
> Shiv Malik has been tweeted at so he should see the story, but I think someone from the indy is most likely to be able to follow this up as they may have contact details for the person who commented.
> 
> e2a I've also tweeted to Anne Begg MP who wrote the article and an indy journo I've spoken to before about ukuncut stuff, so hopefully there will be some follow up on this.


 

good news, the response to the tweet, they have crossed the rubicon on this one, i am going to inform as many as I can about this,


----------



## treelover (Aug 5, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> A not-unfair comparison, _angel_, especially given that most of those drowned as witches most likely weren't
> 
> And there was me thinking we were only going back in history to Victorian England, not 17th century Scotland.


 

This is how I saw it all going, when Blair, Blunkett and Hutton first mooted these reforms,NL had a very dark heart...


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> A lot of these contractor companies were originally IT/business services companies. This is just an expansion on that into partial *direct* provision of services rather than staying strictly in a middleman role.


Got it.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 8, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> AFAIK.. It's a very convoluted relationship between Atos Healthcare CEOs, UNUM CEOS, *both called O'donnell* Government ministers and the plan to deny disability and get the sick and disabled off benefits using a computer program to test the victims with Biopsychosocial models flying around in the mix.
> 
> BLACK TRIANGLE go some way to explaining it. Add in James Purnell, Lord David Fraud, a think tank or three, and bobs yer uncle.


I think governments deliberately make things complicated. We have the kind of confusing arrangements and Kafka-esque bureaucracy that makes this country look like Terry Gilliam's _Brazil_.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 8, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> I think governments deliberately make things complicated. We have the kind of confusing arrangements and Kafka-esque bureaucracy that makes this country look like Terry Gilliam's _Brazil_.


Sad thing is they wouldn't need to complicate things so much if they weren't being so devious in their intentions. UK is not the only country where the sick and disabled and the students are being demonised and hounded. The same approach is being used in Australia, New Zealand too as well as countries I've not yet had definite evidence of. 

This has been in the planning for many more years than we realise. Studies like THIS and others *that I can't find right now*. The push by UNUM to get governments to reduce welfare and force people to take pension, health and every other possble insurance that they don't have or need because of the Welfare State.


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## tufty79 (Aug 8, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> The push by UNUM to get governments to reduce welfare and force people to take pension, health and every other possble insurance that they don't have or need because of the Welfare State.


i'm already getting spam emails for health insurance with titles like 'worried about NHS reforms?'. i'm not sure there's a head/desk emoticon, is there?


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 8, 2012)

Exactly Tufty. Just the other week when I was searching for a lost JSA payment I had to take a form to the bank to verify it wasn't stuck somewhere in their system. While I was there the girl at the inquiries desk asked me if I was interested in health/disablity/unemployment insurance. 

I replied as 'nicely' as I could that "These insurance scams are the reason the NHS and Welfare were being given away to the highest profitable contractor and her granny had to sell her home to pay for her care" There may have been a miniscule glint of realisation in here eye... but more likely just a "what the fuck is she on about" before business as usual.


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 8, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> W/R/T IB assessments, each time I had an IB medical (Sema rather than Atos, IIRC) I was escorted from the "consulting rooms" and asked to climb a short flight of stairs, and I knew several people who independently related the same thing to me without prompting, so I'm open to the possibility that it really happened.


That I can understand to a certain extent. Taking a blind/deaf person who has little vocabulary to a carpark and dumping them there to see if they can make their way back is a whole other unnecessary extreme.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> That I can understand to a certain extent. Taking a blind/deaf person who has little vocabulary to a carpark and dumping them there to see if they can make their way back is a whole other unnecessary extreme.


 
Mmmm, let me put it another way.
What was *supposed* to happen at IB medical assessments is that they had a step-high box that they were supposed to ask you to step onto and off of. They weren't supposed to get you to use stairs.
So, just another example of taking the piss out of crips, as far as I'm concerned.


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 8, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mmmm, let me put it another way.
> What was *supposed* to happen at IB medical assessments is that they had a step-high box that they were supposed to ask you to step onto and off of. They weren't supposed to get you to use stairs.
> So, just another example of taking the piss out of crips, as far as I'm concerned.


Ahhhh. So there is NO reason at all to move from the room during these exams. Thanks for the heads up VP.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Ahhhh. So there is NO reason at all to move from the room during these exams. Thanks for the heads up VP.


 
From what I've read in places, their step test is sly.  I've read that people have been asked to get onto the doctor's bed, which is raised high, so they have steps to get up to it, and they've obviously raised bed so you have to use steps, so you're obviously being assessed on that

Very sneaky


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## treelover (Aug 10, 2012)

*'Monday 13th Despatches on Channel 4 at 8pm: Jobcentre Plus* Following on from the recent programme about Faking it and DLA claims, Reporter Morland Sanders investigates Jobcentre Plus, the organisation tasked with getting Britain back to work and cracking down on dole cheats. With the help of jobseekers, undercover filming and a former insider, the programme reveals the shirkers' tricks that make it easy to cheat the system.'

Oh dear, is Ch4 back to its usual theme of bashing the unemployed?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 10, 2012)

I hope not 
...meanwhile...
http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012...and-other-disabled-people-hate-david-cameron/


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## treelover (Aug 10, 2012)

'Following on from the recent programme about Faking it and DLA claims'


the thing is Dispatches on ATOS wasn't about 'faking it' it was about the nature of this company, its abuses and failures, the UK press corp* is abusing its position.

yes, i know its only a brief review, but it's wrong...


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## treelover (Aug 10, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I hope not
> ...meanwhile...
> http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012...and-other-disabled-people-hate-david-cameron/


 

really good article, more and more people are being affected by the reforms, but just like in the U.S, there is no effective political representation...


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## Frumious B. (Aug 10, 2012)

For those who have difficulty filling in claim forms there are people who will do it for you, e.g. Broadway http://www.broadwaylondon.org/WhatWeDo/AdviceServices/WelfareRights.html They are for 'vulnerably housed' people, which seems to include anyone on benefits struggling with rent. They have one welfare rights worker for Lambeth called Dan Norris - nice bloke, very experienced. He makes home visits and fills in people's forms for them dan dot norris at broadwaylondon.org.


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## treelover (Aug 10, 2012)

The Dispatches programme is not looking good, just saw the trailer, its an sensationalist 'expose' of how the unemployed 'get away' with not satisfying the legal requirements of the JSA, etc, no mention of how robust/nasty/ridiculous they are, and of course, whether there any decent jobs to actually look for...

It attacks the job centre as well, softening up for more private involvement?...

and of course, the Olympics are now finished so you can bet it will get more coverage than the ATOS ones..


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2012)

treelover said:


> The Dispatches programme is not looking good, just say the trailer, its an sensationalist 'expose' of how the unemployed get away with not satisfying the legal requirements of the JSA, etc, no mention of how robust/nasty/ridiculous they are, and of course, whether there any decent jobs to actually look for...


 
C4 did 'The Great Global Warming Swindle' and Dispatches did a whole bunch of utterly irresponsible 'Satanic Panic' shite.

They'll only tell the truth if they think there are headlines in it.

If telling lies gets better headlines, causes more of a sensation, that's what Dispatches will do.

The cunts.


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## BigTom (Aug 11, 2012)

treelover said:


> The Dispatches programme is not looking good, just saw the trailer, its an sensationalist 'expose' of how the unemployed 'get away' with not satisfying the legal requirements of the JSA, etc, no mention of how robust/nasty/ridiculous they are, and of course, whether there any decent jobs to actually look for...
> 
> *It attacks the job centre as well, softening up for more private involvement?...*
> 
> and of course, the Olympics are now finished so you can bet it will get more coverage than the ATOS ones..


 
One thought of mine..

Universal Credit is moving to online, so you'll eventually do your fortnightly signing on / submitting job searches without going to the job centre (at least in theory, as I understand the aim to be). 
AFter 6-12 months (or less if you're a prisoner) you get sent on the work programme (or sector based work academy possibly if you're 18-24), whereby you'll be going X number of times per week to your private provider.

Where's the role for the job centre now? 

I can easily see the JCP being scrapped competely as a physical entity, whta you do on the work programme with a4e etc. already mirrors what the JCP do, so how long before JCP gets shut down entirely?

This dispatches sounds utter bullshit, bet more people watch and believe it than did the dispatches on atos


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 11, 2012)

treelover said:


> *'Monday 13th Despatches on Channel 4 at 8pm: Jobcentre Plus* Following on from the recent programme about Faking it and DLA claims, Reporter Morland Sanders investigates Jobcentre Plus, the organisation tasked with getting Britain back to work and cracking down on dole cheats. With the help of jobseekers, undercover filming and a former insider, the programme reveals the shirkers' tricks that make it easy to cheat the system.'
> 
> Oh dear, is Ch4 back to its usual theme of bashing the unemployed?


 
ah, and the Olympics will have finished by then so lots of people might be able to watch it, unlike the other two programmes


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## harpo (Aug 12, 2012)

Taking swipes at JCP staff is easy, and no doubt some of them ARE crap, but at least the JCP doesn't pocket bonuses for getting people off the books. The 'private' sector does. 

Unlike the expose on Atos, our overlords will be rubbing their hands with glee at this facilitation of privatising every single public function they can.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 13, 2012)

and guess what's back on tomorrow morning?  Saints and Scroungers


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## _angel_ (Aug 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> *'Monday 13th Despatches on Channel 4 at 8pm: Jobcentre Plus* Following on from the recent programme about Faking it and DLA claims, Reporter Morland Sanders investigates Jobcentre Plus, the organisation tasked with getting Britain back to work and cracking down on dole cheats. With the help of jobseekers, undercover filming and a former insider, the programme reveals the shirkers' tricks that make it easy to cheat the system.'
> 
> Oh dear, is Ch4 back to its usual theme of bashing the unemployed?


"lefty" channel four


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## treelover (Aug 13, 2012)

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/20...-c4-dispatches-secrets-of-the-benefit-cheats/


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## treelover (Aug 13, 2012)

'*An evening of action against the media cheats*

On Monday 13th August, Channel 4′s Dispatches will be broadcasting an episode called “Tricks of the Dole Cheats”. The programme will help further stigmatise people who claim social security. Yesterday it had already provided the Daily Mail with an opportunity for its favourite type of rant under the headline “Benefit cheats’ bonanza”.

This despite the fact half a million people were sanctioned last year, and the fact that 99.3% of benefits payments have nothing to do with fraud.
If you’re fed up with the way the media blame people claiming benefits for the UK’s economic woes, then tonight you can can do something about it.
Visit the Facebook event for more details on how to take action or see suggestions below.'


Boycott Workfare is urging online protests, good for them...

Sonia Poulton's on the case as well, if only we had this when the reforms were first proposed...


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## yardbird (Aug 13, 2012)

The Dispatches program was titled wrongly.


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## Greebo (Aug 13, 2012)

yardbird said:


> The Dispatches program was titled wrongly.


Not only that, it protrayed jobcentre staff as lackadaisical and complacent.


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## treelover (Aug 13, 2012)

Softening it up for privatisation, Reed, ingeus, etc..


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## ericjarvis (Aug 13, 2012)

yardbird said:


> The Dispatches program was titled wrongly.


 
Misleadingly certainly, but probably deliberately.


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