# Brixton Market redevelopment?



## nick (Dec 9, 2008)

Sorry for the C&P, but thought that this might be of interest. It came from the "Friends of Brixton Market"


> Dear Friends of Brixton Market,
> 
> We want to update you on something big that's happening.
> 
> ...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 9, 2008)

building apartments on top?


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## Crispy (Dec 9, 2008)

I will have to look at the planning app when it comes up on the lambeth website...


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## editor (Dec 9, 2008)

I've seen the architect's drawing and it's as ugly as fuck and totally out of scale for the area.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 9, 2008)

editor said:


> I've seen the architect's drawing and it's as ugly as fuck


 

What a surprise


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## Bob (Dec 9, 2008)

editor said:


> I've seen the architect's drawing and it's as ugly as fuck and totally out of scale for the area.



10 Storeys I could just about take if it were nice. But this whole thing rings alarm bells that seriously worry me...


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 9, 2008)

> In the proposed scheme the number of small shop units would decrease by about 30


hmmm. *most* of the small businesses in there then


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## newbie (Dec 9, 2008)

Brixton Hatter said:


> hmmm. *most* of the small businesses in there then



are there that many? tbh none of them look to be particularly thriving. In the last few months two of the traders have told me they're getting out as soon as they can


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 9, 2008)

newbie said:


> are there that many? tbh none of them look to be particularly thriving. In the last few months two of the traders have told me they're getting out as soon as they can



but at the moment the markets offer relatively cheap opportunities to set up a small food shop/record shop/caff/whatever. And if the development goes ahead i can imagine a smaller number of larger shops (chain shops like next, borders, gap, burger king etc) leaving less opportunities for locals to be entreprenurial, taking money away from the locality (...and giving it to all the rich shareholders and investors who lost £ during the banking crisis )


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## netbob (Dec 9, 2008)

not much of a looker it has to be said:







but it's got trees! (I could be an architect I reckon, draw crap add trees)


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## Crispy (Dec 9, 2008)

Doesn't look like there's any planning guidance on a possible Overground station, judging by the plan on the architect's website. Although I'd not be surprised if Lambeth weren't forward-thinking enough to think about it. The planning app will make things clearer.


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## newbie (Dec 9, 2008)

Brixton Hatter said:


> but at the moment the markets offer relatively cheap opportunities to set up a small food shop/record shop/caff/whatever. And if the development goes ahead i can imagine a smaller number of larger shops (chain shops like next, borders, gap, burger king etc) leaving less opportunities for locals to be entreprenurial, taking money away from the locality (...and giving it to all the rich shareholders and investors who lost £ during the banking crisis )



oh yes, the whole thing makes me cringe.

meanwhile


> - LAP want to connect the last avenue to a possible Brixton Station platform extension, and widen it, removing all the shops from one side.


can anyone explain how this is supposed to work.  I'm obviously missing something because to my uneducated eye there's a slight height difference


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## Bel (Dec 12, 2008)

The new plan looks like an opportunity to make a killing and put two fingers up at the local character or amenity of the area.  I'd argue that Granville arcade forms a very significant part of the Brixton built environment and to rip it down and put down another characterless development would be an absolute shame and would really detract from the area.

Incidentally my dad told me that his uncle Philip (Granville-Grossman) built the place in the 1930's.


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## editor (Dec 12, 2008)

It's also important to note that the similarly large building development on the corner of Coldharbour Lane and Valentia Place remains unfinished, years after work started, and the adjacent site of Cooltan is a flattened wasteland, with the buildings lying empty for getting on a decade. And then there's the disused petrol station a little further down the road.

What makes the council think that this new development is likely to succeed, particularly bearing in mind the current downturn?


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## Crispy (Dec 12, 2008)

Having overlayed the plan on gmaps, I'm almost certain that the "possible Brixton Station platform extension" refers to a possible Overground station.

If I was Lambeth Council, I'd say that a contribution towards such a station would be a condition of planning permission.


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## Gramsci (Dec 14, 2008)

I cant see anything on the Lambeth planning website yet.Does not seem like they have put in the application yet.As the arcades come under the new Brixton masterplan (not yet finished.Its has been delayed for 3 months) I wonder if LAP have been talking to Future Brixton Council Officers about this proposal.

The new alleyway and mixed use development does go along with whats in the new masterplan (as it stands at the moment) .Though the height might be a problem.

When the application goes in it will be subject to public consultation.So I would advise people to get there comments ready to submit to planning.Planning applications (when submitted) are normally left in the local library for the public to look at.

The Council may want to get some kind of planning "gain" from this development.I see the proposals will contain "affordable housing" which will keep the Council happy.

The main points are IMO  -Height
                                    Architectural merit
                                    Safegaurding small retailers


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## Bob (Dec 15, 2008)

editor said:


> It's also important to note that the similarly large building development on the corner of Coldharbour Lane and Valentia Place remains unfinished, years after work started, and the adjacent site of Cooltan is a flattened wasteland, with the buildings lying empty for getting on a decade. And then there's the disused petrol station a little further down the road.
> 
> What makes the council think that this new development is likely to succeed, particularly bearing in mind the current downturn?



They might be able to pre-let / sell enough properties to make it worthwhile. However that does sound a little unlikely given the (presumably) low rent of the existing retailers, and that it has residential stuff above the shops.


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## Gramsci (Dec 17, 2008)

editor said:


> It's also important to note that the similarly large building development on the corner of Coldharbour Lane and Valentia Place remains unfinished, years after work started, and the adjacent site of Cooltan is a flattened wasteland, with the buildings lying empty for getting on a decade. And then there's the disused petrol station a little further down the road.
> 
> What makes the council think that this new development is likely to succeed, particularly bearing in mind the current downturn?



The unfinished block of flats has now been taken over by another property developer as the last one went bust.It appears that the previous developer had a cavalier attitude towards planning and building regs.The building is higher than the original plans allowed and Ive heard the building standards arent that high.The only other alternative would be to demolih it and start again.


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## tarannau (Dec 17, 2008)

Bel said:


> The new plan looks like an opportunity to make a killing and put two fingers up at the local character or amenity of the area.  I'd argue that Granville arcade forms a very significant part of the Brixton built environment and to rip it down and put down another characterless development would be an absolute shame and would really detract from the area.
> 
> Incidentally my dad told me that his uncle Philip (Granville-Grossman) built the place in the 1930's.



Looks out of scale for sure, but I'm not immensely opposed to the idea of using private developments to pay for a much needed overhaul of the site if done properly. It's looking increasingly shabby and down at heel, as much I love the place it compares badly to better maintained local competitors like Tooting market. In a perfect world the cash would be magicked up with no strings attached, but realistically that's a non starter.

My major concern centres around this point:



> - LAP said they would guarantee that current traders would be able to return to the new market space. LAP also indicated they are open to providing returning traders with guarantees of current rent levels. They didn't give any specifics of how these guarantees would work. They indicated that they are open to developing these guarantees as formal documents through the planning consultation process.



I'd want these assurances checked over with a fine toothed comb. They'd have to be set for a long time, with only inflation based raises at most. And service charges and similar - often a backdoor method of forcing out smaller traders - would need equally cast iron guarantees. I'd also insist that rate charges remain unchanged for new traders too , if only to stop the character of the market being changed markedly as current occupants retired or tried to change ownership.

Worried also about the prospect of the three larger units and what they'd contribute too.


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## editor (Dec 17, 2008)

Gramsci said:


> The unfinished block of flats has now been taken over by another property developer as the last one went bust.It appears that the previous developer had a cavalier attitude towards planning and building regs.The building is higher than the original plans allowed and Ive heard the building standards arent that high.The only other alternative would be to demolih it and start again.


I've noticed what looks like another level on the top appearing. There seems to be about 3 people working on the site now, so they should be finished some time around 2015 at this rate.

Maybe the building should be checked over for the safety of the workers if it's as iffy as you suggest?


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## teuchter (Dec 17, 2008)

To start with I thought the ten-storey building was being proposed over the main Brixton market bit in between Coldharbour Lane and Electric Avenue. Which would be totally out of scale. Now I see (I think) that it's the "Brixton Village" bit they are proposing to develop. Aside from concerns about the effect on the market, a high building here would seem less inappropriate given that it is mainly bounded by the railway lines.

The drawings on the architect's site are certainly uninspiring. And looking at their other projects, they are similarly undistinguished. 

I wouldn't have much faith in Lambeth Planning to enforce any kind of high standard of architectural design. If they even knew what that was if it hit them.


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## Gramsci (Jan 19, 2009)

Just heard from Brixton Society that the developer is mounting display of plans in Unit 85/86 of Brixton Village (Granville Arcade) on:

 Thursday 22nd January  12 to 3
 Friday 23rd January       2  to 5
 Saturday 24th January  10 to 1

 Any comments on proposals to 

  Redevelopment proposals for Brixton Village
  FREEPOST RLSX-KHXT-BGSR
  Four Communications
  49 Leicester square
  London
  WC2 7FG

 or email to

j.charlton@lap.co.uk

  I think Four Communications are a PR company


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## boohoo (Jan 19, 2009)

teuchter said:


> To start with I thought the ten-storey building was being proposed over the main Brixton market bit in between Coldharbour Lane and Electric Avenue. Which would be totally out of scale. Now I see (I think) that it's the "Brixton Village" bit they are proposing to develop. Aside from concerns about the effect on the market, a high building here would seem less inappropriate given that it is mainly bounded by the railway lines.



This reminds me of what's happening around Dalston junction. There are some nice houses and old buildings, tending to be low rise. Many of the old houses on Dalston Lane have gone to rot very very quickly (an incentive to pull them down although in a conservation area) and what has already been removed (the old Dalston theatre and two Georgian houses) they plan to build up to 14 storey buildings which will look totally out of place. 

As Hackney spent (as I understand it) £8 million demolishing their high rise stock, I don't understand how they can build new high rises. 

I really hope they don't pull down Brixton village. It has a lot of character and with a bit of investment could be a great little shopping place.


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## teuchter (Jan 19, 2009)

boohoo said:


> As Hackney spent (as I understand it) £8 million demolishing their high rise stock, I don't understand how they can build new high rises.



Well, there's good high-rise and there's bad high-rise.

And an awful lot of mediocre high-rise too of course.


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## lang rabbie (Jan 19, 2009)

Gramsci said:


> I think Four Communications are a PR company



Yup.   A certain Jim Dickson is their "Director, Politics" - although AFAIK he (and party hacks of various other political pursuasions working for Four) are fairly scrupulous in maintaining a "Chinese Wall" from any work they do for clients of the property team with planning applications in Lambeth.

I think it will take a lot more than Four's Machiavellian PR tactics for Brixton folk to ever learn to love the new owners of the covered markets' plans for redevelopment.


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## boohoo (Jan 19, 2009)

teuchter said:


> Well, there's good high-rise and there's bad high-rise.
> 
> And an awful lot of mediocre high-rise too of course.



for some reason, some like the Barbican work... aspirational, desired whereas others just don't. I lived in one for over sixth month. Space was great as was storage as was the view watching thunder storms creep across landscapes...this is what happened to the one I lived in:



I think much of the recent stuff going up is dull and will be critised in the future. The planners won't learn....


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## boohoo (Jan 19, 2009)

This is what has happened at Dalston junction... god, it makes me wince - car crash development and tooo many acidental fires. 

http://opendalston.blogspot.com/


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## teuchter (Jan 19, 2009)

"Accidental fires" make me rather angry.

I think the owners of these buildings should be held more responsible for making sure the "accidental" fires don't happen in the first place.

Battersea Power Station is one massive slow-motion accidental fire happening in front of our noses.


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## boohoo (Jan 19, 2009)

The Dalston blogspot is exceptionally upsetting as it record te council ripping out a mainly Victorian and Georgian housing group and replacing with shite. Some interesting shots of the interior of Dalston theatre as it was destroyed (which also makes me turn away). Hackney council are ... *trying to find a really polite bad word*


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## boohoo (Jan 19, 2009)

You weren't around for this thread:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=127793&highlight=fire


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## fbm (Jan 21, 2009)

*URGENT: Get ready to fight for Brixton Market*

As already noted by Gramsci, London Associated Properties are displaying their plans thursday, friday, saturday in Granville Arcade.

Thursday 22nd January 12 to 3
Friday 23rd January 2 to 5
Saturday 24th January 10 to 1

They are doing this as part of their supposed 'consultation' - which seems to consist of zero opportunity for actual feedback to be taken on board. They have already distributed a leaflet about the presentation which contains the line "The redevelopment will NOT change or alter the nature of the market in any way". What are they going to do then, leave it as it is?

Friends of Brixton Market are going to be distributing leaflets on these days giving the alternative view. *If you are able to pop by and help, we'd be very grateful.*

Please check the (new!!) FBM website: www.friendsofbrixtonmarket.org for more info or email us at brixtonmarket@googlemail.com

LAP's application is a very frightening development for Brixton. The proposal within itself would be disastrous for Brixton and were it to succeed would set a precedent that could see Brixton change beyond recognition into blandville in the next ten years.

What's especially frightening about LAP is their tactics in other developments around London.

In the past week or so, both the Islington Tribune and the Evening Standard have reported on two separate developments where LAP are destroying historic and much loved markets, riding roughshod over the desires of the community and local council and are quoted as "bullying" traders.

Evening Standard article about Antiquarius in King's Road, Chelsea

Antique Traders Gazette

Islington: LAP evict all traders

Islington: LAP try to turn market into nightclub

If you are in any doubt that this is serious, please read these articles.

When LAP's application is validated by the council, there will be a link on FBM's website to the Lambeth planning website where you can register your opposition.

Friends of Brixton Market and other local groups are working on alternative plans to safe guard the market for us all for the future.

None of them will go anywhere if LAP succeed. Beating their application will only be the first battle with them. Please tell everyone you know, and check back here and at  www.friendsofbrixtonmarket.org


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## newbie (Jan 22, 2009)

cooo.  So in Islington they want to turn a posh antiques market into a _"bohemian-style coffee shop, bar, and restaurant displaying and promoting works from local artists, photographers and musicians."_. Brixton isn't Islington but I s'pose the local equivalent would be to turn Granville Arcade into a live music venue with stalls selling wet fish and live snails.


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## Cowley (Jan 22, 2009)

Sure Brixton Market needs a bit of a tidy up, but it doesn't need some radical overhaul with a view to changing the architectual beauty of it.  I don't like those drawings...they look awful, really awful.

It's really sad that most developers these days feel the need to reshape landmark sites with souless modern architecture. Why not just a sympathetic restore?

A prime example is Spitalfields Market which has been totally ruined over the past 5 years, I'm surprised they haven't gone the whole hog and pulled down those beautiful Grade II listed Huguenot Houses in the side streets off Spitalfields.

It's all about money, fuck the heritage


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## Crispy (Jan 22, 2009)

These guys look like utter bastards. I'll come down on Saturday to look at the proposals.


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## editor (Jan 22, 2009)

fbm said:


> As already noted by Gramsci, London Associated Properties are displaying their plans thursday, friday, saturday in Granville Arcade.
> 
> Thursday 22nd January 12 to 3
> Friday 23rd January 2 to 5
> Saturday 24th January 10 to 1


I'll take a look today and see if I can grab some photos.


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## tarannau (Jan 22, 2009)

May well pop down myself today and heckle my consultation.

I'll keep an eye out for the folks of FBM as well. I don't mind giving up a little time to help if this is spectacularly awful


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 22, 2009)

> *Brixton can’t cope with hundreds of new residents in new tower blocks. *


 
especially yuppies 

Awful idea and I hope they don't get away with it


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## wjh (Jan 22, 2009)

Just been and had a look around at the presentation and talked to a guy from LAP and Barry Stanford (the architect).  Managed to avoid the woman from the PR company thankfully.

Sounds like they are putting the planning application in 'cos they expect it to take a long time to get through and if it does they'll have three years to start the project.  The project is to be wholly funded through the sale of the 112 residential units,  so they're not going to start until the financial market picks up enough for them to get a return (I took that as the banks aren't going to give them any money any time soon.)

They reckon 18 months from start of demolition to the market opening again for business (with another six months work to finish the residential).  This sounds like it'll be the end of a lot of the small businesses operating in the market as I don't see anywhere viable for them to move to in central brixton.  The guy from LAP made an off the cuff remark about doing some deal on the Woolworths site to temporarily re-site the traders.  

They seemed completely unaware that ASC (http://www.ascstudios.co.uk/) rent out the spaces above 5th and 6th avenue,  so I showed them around. Doesn't sound like there's going to be any provision for studio spaces in the new build.

When questioned about social housing the answers were dismissive and they are doing all they can to reduce the amount of social housing in the development "in order to make it a viable project."


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## editor (Jan 22, 2009)

Took a look. It's horribly out of scale and looks like the kind of rubbish bland development that would make Brixton blend into anytown. 

Good to see hatboy there giving it full barrels to the developers. I quizzed the owner and he admitted that they haven;t the slightest interest in spending a penny on the market now - all they want is to get planning permission and start raking the cash in.

Seeing as it could take up to three years to get the permission, they'll probably just run the place down until it's such a shithole that residents will agree to anything.

Photos later.


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## editor (Jan 22, 2009)

The've got these questionnaires that are totally geared to getting the 'right' answers - so there's no "Are you against this development YES/NO" option, only ones that can be spun by the developers.


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## gaijingirl (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm going down tomorrow - I hate the sound of this.  These greedy bloody tosspot developers with their crap questionnaires ...


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## Xeno (Jan 22, 2009)

Why not a restore? Because refurbishment attracts VAT, unlike new-build. Also, it doesn't allow architects to get their rocks off with bold "statements" that other people have to live in, not them. Also, if/when the traders were invited to move back in, the current ones would not be able to afford the huge new rents. All Brixton character would be stripped out and carted off and replaced with franchise clone retail crud. 

Jim Dickson. Yes, I think he's the guy who helped push through the chopping off of the corner of Brockwell Park. Let's all go down to the exhibitions and give them an earful. They have not applied for planning permission yet and if there is enough opposition they might adapt their plans. 

Don't forget the first rule of urban redevelopment. After you have acquired the property you want to pull down, let it go to rack and ruin. That way, the mug punters won't realise that the buildings are quite sound, and they will object less when you propose demolition.


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## shygirl (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm going down at 2 pm and gonna give out leaflets for FBM.  Perhaps a couple of you guys could help with leafleting.


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## Crispy (Jan 22, 2009)

Yes, I'm willing to do that. Gotta do some shopping anyway, so can ill a whole load of birds with one stone


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## netbob (Jan 22, 2009)

Right, am plotting how to sort this out, me and niplsa are in the albert if anyone wants to join the plotting.


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## Dan U (Jan 22, 2009)

good luck with this.

i work near the Antiques Market in Islington and these fuckers have been sniffing around for ages. The council there have already let too many 'chains' in to that side of Upper Street imo and once the market goes all 'trendy' it won't be long before other national retailers are sniffing around the remaining independents round Camden Passage etc.

makes me cross all this.


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## quimcunx (Jan 22, 2009)

memespring said:


> Right, am plotting how to sort this out, me and niplsa are in the albert if anyone wants to join the plotting.



I can't come down but good luck.  

Has your victory earlier in the week bouyed you up?


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## editor (Jan 23, 2009)

memespring said:


> Right, am plotting how to sort this out, me and niplsa are in the albert if anyone wants to join the plotting.


I witnessed some of the later parts of that plotting tonight.

It was very interesting.


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## netbob (Jan 23, 2009)

editor said:


> I witnessed some of the later parts of that plotting tonight.
> 
> It was very interesting.



hmm no dinner + guiness makes memesprings fall over


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## Bob (Jan 23, 2009)

memespring said:


> Right, am plotting how to sort this out, me and niplsa are in the albert if anyone wants to join the plotting.



I'll catch up with you by email....


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## brix (Jan 24, 2009)

I'll be popping down around midday on my way to the Gaza demo outside BBC Broadcasting House.

This development would rip the soul out of the market.  It's completely out of scale for the area and is monumentally ugly


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## netbob (Jan 24, 2009)

I had quite good fun with them yesterday. They have no answers on:

- social impact of having a private park in the middle of town
- what they mean by affordable housing
- impact on already stretched services (parking etc)
- if they have any community support
- effects on a conservation area of a minging highrise building
- effect on general brixton economy of shutting a large part of the market for 2 years


and their questionnaire is utterly lame, i'm not going to submit one and just write to my councillor instead.


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## editor (Jan 24, 2009)

I think we should set up our own questionnaire here that includes options like:
"Do you think Brixton will benefit from this development YES/NO"
"Do you trust the developers to deliver their promises?"

etc etc


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## Mind (Jan 24, 2009)

Was there this morning.

Their PR people are a bunch of amateurs who are no doubt making things worse for the developer.  
I'm not surprised that Jim Dickson is a director there.

Typical.


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## netbob (Jan 24, 2009)

I've just fired off a few preliminary FOI requests:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/list_of_council_assessments_of_t
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/list_of_documents_submitted_to_l
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/list_of_meetings_between_lambeth_2
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/list_of_meetings_between_lambeth


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## newbie (Jan 24, 2009)

the first one is about  'indoor meetings'.  Is that a typo?


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## netbob (Jan 24, 2009)

newbie said:


> the first one is about  'indoor meetings'.  Is that a typo?



doh 


I seem to be  fucking up everything I touch at the moment.


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## Dan U (Jan 24, 2009)

nice one memespring.

i've said this a few times on here in relation to Lambeth and other councils, but working at a council i've observed the blind panic a well asked FOI question can bring.

an under used weapon in local campaigning imo. it's a huge positive thing organising petitions and challenging in public meetings etc but i think people often miss a trick and don't go after the decision making process or financial rationale behind things like this as well 

i've sat in meetings where senior management are more worried about 'what the daily mail' might say as opposed to making a correct decision for a community.


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## lang rabbie (Jan 24, 2009)

memespring said:


> I've just fired off a few preliminary FOI requests:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You might need to add one about meetings between *consultants appointed by Lambeth *and L&AC.   

AFAIK much of the work on FutureBrixton - in which the first hints of a favourable atttiude to a high rise redevelopment of the site was expressed - was done by consultants retained by Lambeth rather than Lambeth officers.


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## brix (Jan 24, 2009)

I went down today and had fun giving them a hard time.  I asked them to show me any information they'd had printed in any of the local community languages.  Of course they couldn't.  I asked them how they were possibly hoping to engage the local community when many people don't have English as a first language - they shuffled around and looked a bit awkward.

I asked the guy from LAP if he was aware that his company had a reputation as bully boys.  He did look a bit embarrassed at this point - there were a few poeple listening in.  I advised them to spend 5 minutes googling the company.

The architect was there but neither he or the guy from LAP were able to give me a straight answer about the amount of social housing in the development.  They also gave feeble answers to questions about their plans to keep the market going in a viable way while they redevelop. 

The questionnaire, as memespring says, is rubbish.  Again, I would rather make my views known to my local councillor and, when the time comes, in my objection to planning permission for the development.


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## Bob (Jan 25, 2009)

Mind said:


> Was there this morning.
> 
> Their PR people are a bunch of amateurs who are no doubt making things worse for the developer.
> I'm not surprised that Jim Dickson is a director there.
> ...



Hang on isn't he a sitting Labour councillor for Herne Hill? Or has he stood down?

http://www.lambethlabour.com/lambethlabourpeople/jimdickson.html


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## Bob (Jan 25, 2009)

memespring said:


> doh
> 
> 
> I seem to be  fucking up everything I touch at the moment.



If you have a chance give me a call - I've got some campaign ideas that might help.

If anyone wants to start emailing their councillors then go to:
writetothem.com and put in your postcode and you can email them directly from the site.

For the record the planning committee members are:
# Councillor Toren Smith  (Chair) - Labour
# Councillor Diana Morris  (Vice-Chair) - Labour
# Councillor Andrew Gibson  - Labour
# Councillor Julian Heather   Lib Dem
# Councillor David Malley   - Labour
# Councillor Brian Palmer   - Lib Dem
# Councillor Neil Sabharwal   - Labour

Substitute members are:
# Councillor Adedamola Aminu - Labour
# Councillor June Fewtrell  - Lib Dem 
# Councillor Ruth Ling - Labour 
# Councillor Andrew Sawdon  - Lib Dem - Oval ward

Further details here.


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## colacubes (Jan 25, 2009)

Bob said:


> Hang on isn't he a sitting Labour councillor for Herne Hill? Or has he stood down?
> 
> http://www.lambethlabour.com/lambethlabourpeople/jimdickson.html



Cabinet member for finance and resources according to the Lambeth website.


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## lang rabbie (Jan 25, 2009)

Mind said:


> Was there this morning.
> 
> Their PR people are a bunch of amateurs who are no doubt making things worse for the developer.
> I'm not surprised that Jim Dickson is a director there.
> ...



See my post 25 above, before anyone else posts anything too defamatory about Jim, much as I might enjoy reading it.


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## Gramsci (Jan 25, 2009)

Well I went to have a look.Without having a go I did ask the guy from LAP and architect a few questions.The pretty girl from the PR company unfortunately had to go as I was all up for asking her a few questions).

 Well according to the architect they are going to keep the glass roof and the metal struts.These they have looked at and are in good shape.So the  layout will be roughly the same.They is proposed an alleyway between the market and the Laundry leading to the new proposed Exchange sq.The now units there will face outwards onto the new alleyway.There will be a couple of larger units but most units will stay the same.The retail will be on the ground floor only with flats above.

 The flats above are proposed to have "green roofs".They will be high compered to the rest of Brixton skyline.They said they needed the flats to subsidise the market development.They did admit in the present climate thus scheme was no go.The front of the new development looks bland to me.Not exciting modern architecture.

  What was interesting was how the architects plans fitted in with the, as yet to be published, Future Brixton masterplan.They did say they have been talking to Future Brixton officers (including the top one who i wont name).They issue of sustainability is addressed.The high density housing is in line with Councils proposals and mixed use of site is as well.

 They also said the drains /infrastructure need modernising.Which is probably correct as our drains dont work that well.The rats can come up them.


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## Gramsci (Jan 25, 2009)

memespring said:


> and their questionnaire is utterly lame, i'm not going to submit one and just write to my councillor instead.



 You could ask your Councillor why the Future Brixton masterplan is not yet published for public viewing and consultation.

 What disturbed me about the plans is that LAP and senior officers in Future Brixton are talking about big developments in Brixton on the basis of the (unpublished and not agreed by cabinet) masterplan.It seems residents are coming last in line on consultation on this.

 Also it might be worth asking your Councillor what Future Brixton are up to and whether they have Councillor approval for talking to developers like LAP.

 I have obtained a copy of the FB final draft of masterplan so I know what Im talking about.

 Im on the FB email list and I have had nothing on this.

 What concerns is that LAP are looking to put in an application that the present Labour administration can support through secret talks with trusted seniot officers.


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## Gramsci (Jan 25, 2009)

LAP are promising to rehouse the traders temporarily whilst building works go on and give them a right to return.This should be written into any planning approval.

 LAP say they will keep leases at same level until they expire.So I assume that means they can go up afterwards.I dont now whether LBL can put in rent controls in any planning approval (Do u know Lang Rabbie?).

 I dont think so.Tried to talk to the friends of BM but was waylaid explaining how market rents and capitalism worked to one of our more thick residents.Seems that LAP wont put up rents because they "Wont do that". They would if they could and could get people to pay it.


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## Gramsci (Jan 25, 2009)

lang rabbie said:


> Yup.   A certain Jim Dickson is their "Director, Politics" - although AFAIK he (and party hacks of various other political pursuasions working for Four) are fairly scrupulous in maintaining a "Chinese Wall" from any work they do for clients of the property team with planning applications in Lambeth.
> 
> I think it will take a lot more than Four's Machiavellian PR tactics for Brixton folk to ever learn to love the new owners of the covered markets' plans for redevelopment.



Thanks I know the building in Leicester sq. Im sure they have Chinese wall.But all these people know each other.New Labour / PR / business all seem linked. The Proles come last.


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## brix (Jan 25, 2009)

Gramsci said:


> LAP are promising to rehouse the traders temporarily whilst building works go on and give them a right to return.This should be written into any planning approval.
> 
> LAP say they will keep leases at same level until they expire.So I assume that means they can go up afterwards.I dont now whether LBL can put in rent controls in any planning approval (Do u know Lang Rabbie?).
> 
> I dont think so.Tried to talk to the friends of BM but was waylaid explaining how market rents and capitalism worked to one of our more thick residents.Seems that LAP wont put up rents because they "Wont do that". They would if they could and could get people to pay it.



The guy from LAP told me that rents would stay at the same level "until we rent all the units".


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## Gramsci (Jan 25, 2009)

For the record Im not against new developments if they are of high quality and meet social criteria.

 Seems to me the economic arguments for saving the market are weak under our wonderful capitalist "free market". 

 social housing (thats cheap see other threads on this), reasonably priced retail units and art spaces (as other poster points out) are whats needed.


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## OpalFruit (Jan 31, 2009)

There is an update on the FurureBrixton plans in the Agenda papers for the Feb 9th meeting here: 
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/ieListMeetings.aspx?CId=225&Year=2009


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## Gramsci (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks for that Opal Fruit.Reading the "interim" report seems like the collapse in land values and the consultants dealing with this going bust has delayed the Masterplan.

 Interesting that now the land values have changed the report says that  public bodies rather than private business may play a more important role.


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## netbob (Mar 1, 2009)

Video of what LAP are planning for a market in Chelsea here (with a mention of Brixton) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7915944.stm


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## brix (Mar 13, 2009)

Someone posted this Evening Standard story about the market on another thread:  http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...'will+rip+the+guts+out+of+Brixton'/article.do

Does anyone know anything about a demonstration tomorrow?


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## tarannau (Mar 13, 2009)

Not heard a peep. FBM have my email address too, but no contact from them either.


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## brix (Mar 13, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Not heard a peep. FBM have my email address too, but no contact from them either.



There's nothing on their website either 

Don't tell me this is an example of poor journalism from the Evening Sub-Standard?


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## newbie (Mar 13, 2009)

SLP is reporting today that the plans have been dropped and they'll invest in the existing market


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## brix (Mar 13, 2009)

newbie said:


> SLP is reporting today that the plans have been dropped and they'll invest in the existing market



Who?  LAP?  

Without any strings?

Sorry, want to be pleased but if you're talking about LAP I can't see them doing anything without it having strings attached.


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## Stobart Stopper (Mar 13, 2009)

Just read this in the Standard, it's a fucking outrage IMO.


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## newbie (Mar 13, 2009)

brix said:


> Who?  LAP?
> 
> Without any strings?
> 
> Sorry, want to be pleased but if you're talking about LAP I can't see them doing anything without it having strings attached.



yes I agree, but that's what it says.  Doesn't seem to be online yet but I guess it will be in the next day or so.


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## lang rabbie (Mar 13, 2009)

A curious press release came out of the town hall today...



> *Lambeth backs bid to get iconic market listed *
> 13 March 2009
> 
> Lambeth Council has thrown its weight behind a bid to get Granville Arcade - the main part of Brixton's historic covered markets - listed. *Councillors will join local MPs, market traders and residents at the market tomorrow (Saturday March 14) at 1pm in support of calls to give the market listed status. *They will meet at the Coldharbour Lane entrance to Granville Arcade SW9.
> ...



But surely those concerns were only possible because our Nu-Labour council had authorised the earlier Future Brixton planning documents that recommended demolishing Granville Arcade to build housing on top!



> Granville Arcade has been at the heart of Brixton Market for more than 80 years and the market shops represent a number of Lambeth’s diverse communities. Current traders include a Rastafarian café, Portuguese and Afghanistan butchers, traditional fishmongers and Columbian restaurants.



It is also half empty, which is a major challenge to everyone.   Whatever gripes I share about the new property owners and their attempts to hike the traders' rents, the aisles of Granville Arcade furthest from Atlantic Road have been slowly dying for years...



> Councillor Rachel Heywood, cabinet member for culture and communities says: "Brixton Market is an iconic symbol of Lambeth's history and Granville Arcade (also known as Brixton Village) is the jewel in the market's crown. It has a great social, historic, and cultural significance - particularly for the Windrush generation and the African Caribbean community.



When I hear the word "iconic", I reach for my revolver...



> "The shops and businesses trading from the arcade today represent Lambeth’s diverse communities and are a living example of the integration of new communities into society through economic and social opportunities. The unique cultural significance of Granville Arcade deserves to be recognised and its future preserved for future generations."
> ENDS





> Note to editors:
> 
> A draft masterplan has been developed for Brixton following extensive consultation with local people. It aims to guide development in the town centre, and has two core themes - sustainability and the retention of Brixton's distinctive character, including the cultural heritage and unique niche of the indoor markets


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## editor (Mar 16, 2009)

Yeee-hi!


> Traders win battle to save Brixton Market
> 
> PLANS to demolish one of London's most famous markets have been shelved after opposition from traders and residents.
> 
> ...


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## DJWrongspeed (Mar 16, 2009)

I think the place needs a rethink, a relaunch, the idea of loads of little business'  in there is great, but ldn markets are fickle and it needs a bit of theme to get it going again,  bland as that might sound.  I think alot of the business' are there coz it's cheap, but if there's no-one there 

I'll try and post up my '98 audio doc of the place, it's a mad mix of the place.


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## nick h. (Mar 16, 2009)

I wonder how the rents in the Granville Arcade compare with normal retail space? 

Perhaps it would help if they sorted out the ventilation in there.  Some of the stalls are a bit whiffy. I wouldn't want to set up shop if I was going to be breathing in fish stink all day.


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## Bob (Mar 17, 2009)

lang rabbie said:


> A curious press release came out of the town hall today...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's phenomenal chutzpah. I'm impressed. Presumably the Friends of Brixton Market are too pleased to get support from the council to complain.


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## supercity (Mar 18, 2009)

The arcades have been run down by whoever's in charge of them for years. Back in the day, when British Rail wanted to shut down a station, they'd make a return journey from it impractical, wait a year or two, then show everyone how few passengers they were carrying. The market, it seems to me, has been managed in the same way.

I've lived here for long enough to witness the death of Station Road market, the decline of Electric Avenue, and now this? 

Anyone with a commercial head on their shoulders and a bit of cash behind them could make a go of the arcades by allowing them to open later, doing a bit of high-quality refurbishment, and with a well implemented system of preferential rents, ie charge loads to Starbucks and their ilk and charge less to local, specialised businesses (organic pizza place, fishmongers) in a fixed ratio. That way you get the chain store crowd, and the "discerning" shopper.

The way Marylebone High St has been managed may not be to everyone's taste, but the reason it's not an identikit shopping street and still has small-turnover speciality shops is that it's been managed on these lines for years. Not that we'd see the arcades turning into a rival for W1 in a hurry...


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## Boudicca (Mar 27, 2009)

I had a clothing shop in Granville Arcade for about three years, but there was never really enough business to make it worthwhile.  I expanded into the next unit, hit the VAT threshold, realise all my profit was going to the VAT man and gave up and went to Camden.

Also tried a cafe, but the opening hours made it impossible to make money.  

Market management were amiable enough, but DJwrongspeed is right, it does need a theme and probably a rent free period to entice people down there.


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## Crispy (Mar 27, 2009)

Strangely enough, the proposed Overground station (that would probably have ended up being paid for by the redevelopment) would have been an ideal magnet for the market. If you had to walk past/through the market to get to the station, passing trade and familiarity would rocket.


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## supercity (Mar 27, 2009)

When that bit of Camden market burnt down, I remember thinking that I'd have been straight on the phone, offering free pitches.

Brixton arcades are such an under-appreciated cracker of a place, the lack of nous, or deliberate running-down, pisses me off a treat.


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## Boudicca (Mar 28, 2009)

It isn't that easy to make money in Brixton.  Shoplifting is a major problem (lots of addicts come to steal) and there doesn't see to be much money being spent (unless you are a hairdresser or a chicken shop).  So it might need some lateral thinking to come up with a way of getting Granville Arcade going again.


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## snowy_again (Mar 28, 2009)

a new record shop* was open today next to rosie's and they were refurbing a unit next to it for another cafe. 

*older hip hop from my brief gander


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## lang rabbie (Mar 28, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Strangely enough, the proposed Overground station (that would probably have ended up being paid for by the redevelopment) would have been an ideal magnet for the market. If you had to walk past/through the market to get to the station, passing trade and familiarity would rocket.



I think the proposals to build an overground station are actually part of the problem.  Because National Rail and LT's consultants reckoned that it would cost £50 million to construct a new station on the viaduct (no I don't know how they got to that figure!) all the development proposals were looking at  large scale demolition and rebuild with loads of housing on top to pay for the new station, which would inevitably completely change the character of the markets.   Options for refurbishment and some smaller scale infill redevelopment didn't get a look in.


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## Crispy (Mar 28, 2009)

So, where does the money for the station come from? It's not a simple situation at all, and I don't see a clean solution


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## teuchter (Mar 28, 2009)

50 million? Jings crivens.


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## Crispy (Mar 28, 2009)

fuck me. well that's not going to happen any time soon then


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## quimcunx (Mar 28, 2009)

Surely if that figure got revised up from 2003 it will be revised down again.  You know with the building trade being as it is... 

Like the olympics. I am confidently awaiting new lower figures on the cost of that to be anounced...


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## Crispy (Mar 28, 2009)

yeah, but there's now less money chasing the cheaper prices - doesn't mean a building boom 
even for the boom years, that's a lot of money for a 2 platform railway station


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## quimcunx (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm not expecting  building boom.  Just curious about the spiralling building costs when it was a boom not apparently dropping now there is less of a boom...


Not that I've seen, anyhow.


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## Crispy (Mar 28, 2009)

Well contractors are falling over each other to give cheap quotes so they actually have some jobs. And steel prices have come way down now that China's not buying it all. But costs can't fall a great deal. The only big projects getting new funding in London right now are, broadly, the Olympics and Arab money-backed projects.


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## Gramsci (Mar 29, 2009)

lang rabbie said:


> A curious press release came out of the town hall today...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The FB proposals do propose the increase of "mixed use" sites and higher buildings.So this is a confusing turn around unless FB are going to change the masterplan.The idea of more mixed use sites is that at different times of day the site would always see a use.This is supposed to stop dark unused (and therefore unsafe) areas at night-according to the masterplan.

Also the point that GA is important part of Windrush generation and reflects diversity etc is all very well. But ive seen nothing concrete in masterplan in how this historical heritage /diversity will be protected by the Council.The only way is for lowish rents and planning restrictions on unit size.Also some kind of diversity "monitering" I suppose.

The Windrush generations children have moved further into South London (Croydon).So that element has been slowly decreasing.

 Im never sure what people want.If Brixton really changes the Market could be protected as a piece of architecture but could end up like Bermondsey market. Bermondsey market has kept the architecture but really is a posh eaterie area now. Protecting architectural heritage does not necessarilly result in preserving cultural heritage or diversity.


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## DJWrongspeed (Apr 2, 2009)

Pop vid of the market>>>
Rarely has Brixton market and even the grim multi-storey been so bigged up 

  this one totally passed me by, was lovin the 2step around that time though.


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## Jonti (Apr 3, 2009)

*Nice!*

Thanks for that, I've linked to it from brixtonmarket.net

The town centre needs marketing as a whole, that's what's not been happening.  It takes organised groups of traders to do that (think: singleminded ), landlords have their own interests.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2013)

*Bumped as I've just posted up a piece looking back at what might have been at the Village/Granville Arcade:







http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/11/...ve-been-horrendous-developer-plans-from-2009/


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## loulou82 (Nov 5, 2013)

editor said:


> *Bumped as I've just posted up a piece looking back at what might have been at the Village/Granville Arcade:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OH MY GOD! That is horrifying!


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## Rushy (Nov 5, 2013)

loulou82 said:


> OH MY GOD! That is horrifying!


Really? It looks uncanilly like a taller version of your new home.


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## TruXta (Nov 5, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Really? It looks uncanilly like a taller version of your new home.


 that's a very fair comment actually.


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## Onket (Nov 5, 2013)

Bit dodge, that logo, innit?!


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## loulou82 (Nov 5, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Really? It looks uncanilly like a taller version of your new home.


BS is not going to win any beauty awards but that thing looks like an architecture A level students project from 1992.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2013)

Onket said:


> Bit dodge, that logo, innit?!


I thought that when I saw it. It's like the NF mixed in with a swastika. What were they thinking?!


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## editor (Nov 5, 2013)

loulou82 said:


> BS is not going to win any beauty awards but that thing looks like an architecture A level students project from 1992.


How's that any different from BS?

Your new Barrats home looks like a bland, cheaply constructed office block from any town, anywhere and I imagine will be unlikely to be still around in 60 years time. It contributes nothing to the townscape.

And before you go, "but what about the Barrier Block?", I'll agree that it splits opinions, but at least it is distinctive, unique and built like a tank. And if you ever get to go inside, you'll see the flats are fabulously well designed with south facing terraces all around the back.


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## loulou82 (Nov 5, 2013)

editor said:


> How's that any different from BS?
> 
> Your new Barrats home looks like a bland, cheaply constructed office block from any town, anywhere and I imagine will be unlikely to be still around in 60 years time. It contributes nothing to the townscape.
> 
> And before you go, "but what about the Barrier Block?", I'll agree that it splits opinions, but at least it is distinctive, unique and built like a tank. And if you ever get to go inside, you'll see the flats are fabulously well designed with south facing terraces all around the back.


I actually quite like the brutalism of the barrier block. It's a conversation point which is always a good thing in my opinion. 

I'm not going to defend the architecture of BS, it could be the HQ of Wernham Hogg, but it will be my home. To be fair i've never lived in an 'attractive' building but have always tried my best to make the inside a real home.

The market is a piece of history that would have been violated if that development was allowed to proceed.


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 5, 2013)

loulou82 said:


> OH MY GOD! That is horrifying!


It looks like your new home but without the penthouse/watchtower.Which in my opinon is also horrifying,Ps the market is being violated and will continue that way.


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## editor (Nov 5, 2013)

loulou82 said:


> The market is a piece of history that would have been violated if that development was allowed to proceed.


The traditional market is just being violated in different ways now.


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## Strangerdanger (Nov 5, 2013)

There's a difference between fugly and bland. BS is bland, that building is just fugly. Whenever I see a combination of yellow and red I think of a hotdog, and although that rendering is only a few years old it looks severely dated.


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## shygirl (Nov 5, 2013)

editor said:


> How's that any different from BS?
> 
> Your new Barrats home looks like a bland, cheaply constructed office block from any town, anywhere and I imagine will be unlikely to be still around in 60 years time. It contributes nothing to the townscape.
> 
> And before you go, "but what about the Barrier Block?", I'll agree that it splits opinions, but at least it is distinctive, unique and built like a tank. And if you ever get to go inside, you'll see the flats are fabulously well designed with south facing terraces all around the back.



Were you aware that Foxton's don't 'cover' the Barrier Block?


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 5, 2013)

Nice one for the update and reminder editor - just goes to show the original plan was all about _realising the development potential _by sticking loads of 'luxury' flats on top of the arcade. Clearly the Arcade itself didn't need redeveloping in order to be a popular place. You have to wonder whether this lesson has actually been learned elsewhere in the borough...


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## editor (Nov 6, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Were you aware that Foxton's don't 'cover' the Barrier Block?


I don't know what you mean or why you've included a rolleyes, sorry.


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## shygirl (Nov 6, 2013)

editor said:


> I don't know what you mean or why you've included a rolleyes, sorry.



That Foxton's don't sell flats in the barrier block, which is kinda predictable but ridiculous too.


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## CH1 (Nov 6, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Really? It looks uncanilly like a taller version of your new home.


Better balconies though - almost up to the standard of the Fabrik system-built blocks corner of Lilford Road and Coldharbour Lane.


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## CH1 (Nov 6, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Were you aware that Foxton's don't 'cover' the Barrier Block?


I'm sure they would if anyone in there wanted to sell. I just checked on Zoopla and nothing available. Which is not too surprising - there must be a limited number of rtb in there and those probably prefer their capacious flats with south facing patios to any shoe box at double the price elsewhere!


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