# Making a murderer



## moomoo (Jan 2, 2016)

Is anyone watching this documentary series on Netflix? My daughter has just finished and she is absolutely raving about it! Apparently I HAVE to watch it!


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## DotCommunist (Jan 2, 2016)

I've seen the trailer and posted it on the netflix thread but not been in the mood yet. It looks like it might be interesting if you are in the mood for grim true crime docus I spose


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## Reno (Jan 2, 2016)

I've got it lined up with another gazillion tv series. There is so much good stuff out there right now. I've heard this is a lot like The Jinx, which I thought was amazing.


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## Epona (Jan 2, 2016)

I'm halfway through episode 3 right now - ie. I am watching it as I post here.


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## moomoo (Jan 2, 2016)

I'm going to start tomorrow...

Apparently it's quite harrowing.


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## sparkybird (Jan 2, 2016)

Watched it all in 2 sittings. Completely compelling if shocking
The story is of course fascinating, but the way it's been filmed/put together is pretty amazing.
By the end though, I was a bit unsure about whether it was right that I had been 'entertained' by it.


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## peterkro (Jan 2, 2016)

Anonymous say they have evidence proving the guys innocence which they should release in the next few days.


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## Part 2 (Jan 3, 2016)

I'm at epsiode 6 and now trying to decide of thats a spoiler or not ^^


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## quimcunx (Jan 3, 2016)

Just finished episode 3.  I'm not watching avidly, flicking around tabs.  It's all shonky as hell.  I think what is sort of fascinating is how much is out there between arrest and trial in the US.  That just doesn't happen here. Someone is charged, maybe remanded and you hear nothing more til the trial.  Also what gets me are law professionals of one sort or another talking about 'evil incarnate' and 'this person who showed human emotion is actually a 'monster' stuff.  The performance of it all for media. It annoys me. He is human whether he killed her or not. Humans kill.



Spoiler



the nephew's heavily prompted story about what happened in the trailer but there's no blood. Impossible.   How is no one picking up on this at the time.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2016)

i look forward to the follow-up, marketing a murderer


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## Thora (Jan 3, 2016)

I'm up to episode 4, it's pretty depressing.  Especially the "confession" of the 16 year old with an IQ of 65 where the investigator is just instructing him to draw pictures!


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## moomoo (Jan 3, 2016)

Thora said:


> I'm up to episode 4, it's pretty depressing.  Especially the "confession" of the 16 year old with an IQ of 65 where the investigator is just instructing him to draw pictures!



My daughter was telling me about that! Apparently his defence lawyer told him to plead guilty. I'm going to start watching it now.


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## quimcunx (Jan 3, 2016)

That boy's mum is (unwittingly) not helping him by not realising that he could have said things happened when they didn't at police prompting.


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## Thora (Jan 3, 2016)

quimcunx said:


> That boy's mum is (unwittingly) not helping him by not realising that he could have said things happened when they didn't at police prompting.


The mum is not very bright either though, neither of them knew what "inconsistent" meant.


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## quimcunx (Jan 3, 2016)

Yeah, it's just so frustrating.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jan 4, 2016)

Ten episodes? Started to get bored by episode five so stupidly googled it which completely spoiled the ending but at least I don't have another four hours of this to find out whether he gets away with it after it took twenty seconds to discover on Wikipedia.


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## quimcunx (Jan 5, 2016)

Spoiler



so the judge at sentencing talks about Avery's previous crimes without saying what they are.  Now you would hope he's not saying the rape he didn't do, but who knows.  But this is the first suggestion I've noticed that he's committed any other crimes. My options over what happened were either he's innocent, jail turned him bad, he committed the murder and of all the people who commit a murder at some point in their lives it's feasible one of them has been wrongly imprisoned at at earlier time, but I had also thought that there was no criminal history to speak of because one hadn't been mentioned[/s]


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## Thora (Jan 5, 2016)

He threw a cat into a fire and served some time for it, and he ran his cousin's car off the road and threatened her with a gun (both mentioned in first episode) - there might have been some minor juvenile stuff too, I don't remember.


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## moomoo (Jan 5, 2016)

I've just watched episode 4.  I can't believe the way Brandon was treated! it's outrageous!


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## quimcunx (Jan 5, 2016)

Thora said:


> He threw a cat into a fire and served some time for it, and he ran his cousin's car off the road and threatened her with a gun (both mentioned in first episode) - there might have been some minor juvenile stuff too, I don't remember.



Ah.  Just me not paying attention then.


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## quimcunx (Jan 5, 2016)

While the investigation seems shit I'd be interested in an alternate explanation of what happened if he didn't do it.  It seems a lot of things would have to come together,  maybe too many coincidences needed.

Also are they from the same area Fargo was set in?  It seems like a similar accent.


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## Part 2 (Jan 5, 2016)

quimcunx said:


> While the investigation seems shit I'd be interested in an alternate explanation of what happened if he didn't do it.  It seems a lot of things would have to come together,  maybe too many coincidences needed.
> 
> Also are they from the same area Fargo was set in?  It seems like a similar accent.



Neighbouring state.

There were four other suspects but they weren't allowed to put forward an alternate explanation explicitly in court. Loads of reading online including details of the four and their previous convictions (much worse on the face of it than SA), phone records for the dead woman etc


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## OneStrike (Jan 5, 2016)

Chip Barm said:


> Neighbouring state.
> 
> There were four other suspects but they weren't allowed to put forward an alternate explanation explicitly in court. Loads of reading online including details of the four and their previous convictions (much worse on the face of it than SA), phone records for the dead woman etc



Got a recommended starting point Chip Barm, while your on?  I binge watched the whole lot yesterday so i'm in the mood.  Mrs Strike has Big Brother on.  I was suspicious of the Brother and housemate tbh.


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## Part 2 (Jan 5, 2016)

It's all on Reddit, couldn't tell you which threads I went through and looking now there's new info provided by jurors who were apparently scared for what would happen if they didn't convict. The three jurors who were in the minority weren't prepared to negotiate appear to have connections to the legal system in some way or another.

Making a Murderer • /r/MakingaMurderer


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## Diamond (Jan 6, 2016)

Very good series.  If you like this kind of stuff, check out "The Staircase" about the Michael Petersen case.


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## goldenecitrone (Jan 6, 2016)

Excellent documentary. Good to see Ken Kratz get his comeuppance, the foul sack of shit that he is. Amazing how the American justice system works. And terrifying. As one lawyer says, most people won't commit a crime, but anybody could be accused of committing one. And that's when you will need hundreds of thousands of dollars to save yourself from being locked up for life.


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## chainsawjob (Jan 7, 2016)

I'm enjoying this enormously and really must stay out of this thread until I finished watching it! I can see why people rave about it, it's very well done.


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## SamSav (Jan 7, 2016)

Literally watching the last 15 minutes of the last episode. Hands down one of the best things I've ever watched.


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## wayward bob (Jan 7, 2016)

watched it all yesterday - with the cinematography and soundtrack it was hard to remember it wasn't actually a film some of the time. i found the interviews with brendan most shocking, but not far behind was the case made for his prosecution. 



Spoiler



oh yeah and steven's sentencing - besides the cat and the car incident there were 2 counts of burglary that included beer and a couple of sandwiches from a bar 



my top tip? don't watch with someone who comes in 2/3 of the way through who's too ready with their opinions  closest i've come to divorce


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## Epona (Jan 7, 2016)

We've still not finished watching it, think we got through episode 6 or 7 last night?

I hope we'll get through the rest of it soon, just so I can discuss it properly.


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## wayward bob (Jan 7, 2016)

Reno said:


> I've heard this is a lot like The Jinx, which I thought was amazing.


just started this on youtube - is there a leaky helium factory somewhere in the vicinity? 

eta: it's a glitch with the first ep, second's normal :thumbs :


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## spanglechick (Jan 7, 2016)

I'm 6 episodes in.  I just can't believe that this is a safe conviction.  

The nephew's confession is meaningless - quite apart from the dodginess of the way it was prompted and suggested in places, she clearly was not killed in his trailer or his garage, let alone stabbed and/or throat cut on the bed.  No DNA in an environment that cluttered?

The car key was obviously planted.  The cop who called in the licence plate two days before it was 'discovered' was such a bad liar under oath that I thought his nose was going to start growing, pinocchio style... and the tampered-with phial of blood?  It's a solid gold smoking gun that someone at the local police force was planting evidence to frame him.

SA might have done it.  I don't know...  but with that much evidence of police dodginess, he should never have been convicted.

And then there's all the judicial weirdness.  Not being able to cross-examine the nephew or seemingly to even refer to his confession in SA's defence? How is that legal?  And not being able to pursue any lines of defense that suggest someone else did it?  wtf?  Can that happen in the UK?


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## quimcunx (Jan 7, 2016)

It's all just astounding from beginning to end, isn't it?


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## BigMoaner (Jan 7, 2016)

incredible, incredible stuff.

this is the stuff that true crime saddos like myself dream off.

i am literally avoiding all other posts on this thread in case there is a spoiler. 3 episodes in.

just brilliant.


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## BigMoaner (Jan 7, 2016)

if you liked this, watch this HBO "The Jinx" - just as good. brilliant stuff. 

The Jinx: The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst (TV Mini-Series 2015) - IMDb

on all the usual streaming sites (which are evil, i know, but HBO have taken enough of my doller over the years)


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## Part 2 (Jan 8, 2016)

White house responds to petition...

White House Responds to 'Making a Murderer' Petition


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## wayward bob (Jan 8, 2016)

wayward bob said:


> just started this on youtube - is there a leaky helium factory somewhere in the vicinity?


as an aside - i didn't realise this was a standard workaround for posting copyrighted stuff on youtube. changing the pitch gets around automatic filters, hence helium voices. see also only posting a corner or a slice of the fullscreen image.

torrented it in the end, a good watch if gruesome in parts (i found it more so than mam).


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## Nanker Phelge (Jan 8, 2016)

3 eps in. What a fucked up tale...


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## goldenecitrone (Jan 8, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> 3 eps in. What a fucked up tale...



You ain't seen nothing yet. Ne Ne Ne Nanker...


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## SamSav (Jan 9, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> if you liked this, watch this HBO "The Jinx" - just as good. brilliant stuff.
> 
> The Jinx: The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst (TV Mini-Series 2015) - IMDb
> 
> on all the usual streaming sites (which are evil, i know, but HBO have taken enough of my doller over the years)



Will give that a watch later, ta. Another good one like Making a Murderer I've watched is "Death on the Staircase". Brilliant stuff as well.


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## moomoo (Jan 9, 2016)

I've just finished episode 5. It's all very dodgy! All the evidence so far is circumstancial!


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## Voley (Jan 9, 2016)

I'm on episode 3. It's absolutely mind boggling. Thoroughly depressing but compelling viewing. I shudder to think how it pans out.


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## dolly's gal (Jan 10, 2016)

half way through ep 9. major binge over past couple of days. I had to find out what happened as the suspense was too much but I'll of course finish watching. astonishing really, just mind boggling, the police handling of the investigation, whether he did it or not. the lack of DNA evidence and the absence of blood anywhere (except the stuff in the car) simply doesn't tally with the cops' version of events


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## Voley (Jan 10, 2016)

It's incredible, isn't it moomoo ? Just watched three hours of it this afternoon and it's still making me go wtf? on a very regular basis. I'm on episode 7 just now and it's genuinely compelling viewing.

*A PLEA FOR NO SPOILERS THOUGH, PLEASE !*

peterkro said something earlier on in this thread that may or may not give the game away on the outcome of the whole thing. 

If in doubt, please don't say it. I might start a "spoilers allowed" thread once I've got to the end.

Fantastic bit of TV, mind, even if it's so profoundly depressing.


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## moomoo (Jan 10, 2016)

I've actually tentitively booked the day off sick tomorrow so I can finish watching it...

I am a bad person!!


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## moomoo (Jan 10, 2016)

Voley, do you change your mind about guilt every 5 mins? I do!


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## Thora (Jan 10, 2016)

What do you mean by spoilers?  This is a documentary about something that has actually happened


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## peterkro (Jan 10, 2016)

Voley I mentioned Anonymous "say" they have evidence,days have gone by and nothing.Next time I'll use spoiler tags.


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## spanglechick (Jan 10, 2016)

Thora said:


> What do you mean by spoilers?  This is a documentary about something that has actually happened


Presumably the verdict(s), and bits of evidence that are disclosed as the series goes on.


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## Maharani (Jan 10, 2016)

peterkro said:


> Voley I mentioned Anonymous "say" they have evidence,days have gone by and nothing.Next time I'll use spoiler tags.


How do you do spoiler tags?


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## peterkro (Jan 10, 2016)

Maharani said:


> How do you do spoiler tags?





Spoiler



Fourth symbol from the right on tool bar (it's the insert function) then select spoiler,name it if you want to and type between tags.


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## Voley (Jan 10, 2016)

spanglechick said:
			
		

> Presumably the verdict(s), and bits of evidence that are disclosed as the series goes on.



Exactly this. I'm on episode 8 right now. I don't know the verdict yet and am trying to avoid finding it out until I've seen  the series right to the end.

There's an argument that says I was daft to even click on this thread at all if I didn't want to know, I suppose. But I wouldn't have heard of this great bit of TV if moomoo hadn't mentioned it in the first place.


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## moomoo (Jan 10, 2016)

Voley said:


> Exactly this. I'm on episode 8 right now. I don't know the verdict yet and am trying to avoid finding it out until I've seen  the series right to the end.
> 
> There's an argument that says I was daft to even click on this thread at all if I didn't want to know, I suppose. But I wouldn't have heard of this great bit of TV if moomoo hadn't mentioned it in the first place.



Glad you're enjoying it!


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## Voley (Jan 10, 2016)

moomoo said:
			
		

> Voley, do you change your mind about guilt every 5 mins? I do!



Yes! 

OK. Gonna stay off the net until I've seen the rest, I think. It's probably the only way.


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## Maharani (Jan 10, 2016)

Voley said:


> Exactly this. I'm on episode 8 right now. I don't know the verdict yet and am trying to avoid finding it out until I've seen  the series right to the end.
> 
> There's an argument that says I was daft to even click on this thread at all if I didn't want to know, I suppose. But I wouldn't have heard of this great bit of TV if moomoo hadn't mentioned it in the first place.


I'm on 8 too!


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## Voley (Jan 10, 2016)

moomoo said:
			
		

> Glad you're enjoying it!



It's fucking mingboggling. Dunno if I'm 'enjoying' it as such (iyswim) but it's one of the most compelling bits of TV I've watched in years.

I'd like the team that made it to do a series on Hillsborough. I really like their style.

OK. That's me off the net till I've watched the whole thing.


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## moomoo (Jan 10, 2016)

I'm about to start episode 7...


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## Nanker Phelge (Jan 10, 2016)

I've not wanted to smash the telly so much since Thatcher was primesinister,


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## mack (Jan 10, 2016)

Seriously jaw dropping Tv..when's season 2 starting


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## Part 2 (Jan 11, 2016)

Manitowoc County Sheriffs Department - Manitowoc, Wisconsin - Police station | Facebook


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## Epona (Jan 11, 2016)

Have now finished watching the entire run - can't say I enjoyed it, I was muttering obscenities through my clenched teeth pretty much throughout.  It was horrible and upsetting to watch, and at some points the documentary in itself seemed a bit voyeuristic (although that may not be a terrible thing overall if it convinces people that there has been a miscarriage of justice here).


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## Voley (Jan 11, 2016)

Epona said:


> Have now finished watching the entire run - can't say I enjoyed it, I was muttering obscenities through my clenched teeth pretty much throughout.  It was horrible and upsetting to watch, and at some points the documentary in itself seemed a bit voyeuristic (although that may not be a terrible thing overall if it convinces people that there has been a miscarriage of justice here).


There are plenty of bits that are very uncomfortable to watch, right enough. And I did find myself wondering if it was entertainment, too. Overall though, I think the programme hit the right note. It could have been much more sensationalist and wouldn't have been as good.

I've just got the last one to watch this evening.


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## Maharani (Jan 11, 2016)

tried to add a spoiler alert, didn't work.
Edited to try again aftee reading peterkro 's instructions properly. 



Spoiler



who did the crime I wonder...Steven seems to think it may have been her brothers, esp Charles.


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## SamSav (Jan 11, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> if you liked this, watch this HBO "The Jinx" - just as good. brilliant stuff.
> 
> The Jinx: The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst (TV Mini-Series 2015) - IMDb
> 
> on all the usual streaming sites (which are evil, i know, but HBO have taken enough of my doller over the years)



Watched this based on your recommendation, great shout. Was another fascinating watch. The bit at the very end of the last episode was scary, shame there is not more of these type of documentary series out there, I could watch them all day.


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## Epona (Jan 11, 2016)

Maharani said:


> tried to add a spoiler alert, didn't work.
> Edited to try again aftee reading peterkro 's instructions properly.
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



There was a brother of the victim who was very prominent throughout the entire trial - and who had access to the victim's voicemails (some of which had been deleted, we still don't know by whom, but the brother admitted to guessing her password and logging in to 'listen' to them - but was never questioned further on that as far as the documentary went, and who had been given access to Steven Avery's scrapyard and trailer when he was part of a citizens search).  I would not say he did it, he's never been on trial, but his known access to the victim's cellphone voicemails (which could, including the fact that some had been deleted, could be a major piece of evidence) and access to the Avery property makes me wonder why he was not questioned further.


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## polly (Jan 11, 2016)

It's a series of podcasts but _Serial _is said to be similar and very good (if that word can be used in the context). Here's the link.

I was struck by how there was such a lack of outrage and anger on the part of the Avery and Dassey families - they didn't even seem to grasp how fucked up it was what was being done to them. How powerless the poor are in the US. How easily all those principles they proclaim to uphold and defend are erased. I was _so_ angry with the media ('murder is hot' - what the actual fuck?), judge, police, prosecutors, shit lawyers...

Having done a bit of reading around the case since I finished watching it, I'm unconvinced that Avery was innocent. Of course that's not the point at all - it should have been a mistrial and the behaviour of all the abovementioned is despicable, particularly where Brendan is concerned. A very sad and fucked up state of affairs.


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## Epona (Jan 11, 2016)

polly said:


> It's a series of podcasts but _Serial _is said to be similar and very good (if that word can be used in the context). Here's the link.
> 
> I was struck by how there was such a lack of outrage and anger on the part of the Avery and Dassey families - they didn't even seem to grasp how fucked up it was what was being done to them.



It's actually really easy to get worn down if you or someone you love is accused of something - just on the basis that whatever happens next is going to be another kick in the gut that you're somehow expecting.  We went through something last year (not anything on this scale, just an accusation of theft that was being investigated by police - I say 'just' but that is still pretty serious - nothing came of it in the end as was right because it was a false accusation, but it was horrific to go through, and went on for weeks on end) and it just leaves you drained.  You don't stop being angry, but you get to a point where you're actually too tired and drained and stressed to display any emotion about it other than resignation.


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## polly (Jan 11, 2016)

Epona said:


> It's actually really easy to get worn down if you or someone you love is accused of something - just on the basis that whatever happens next is going to be another kick in the gut that you're somehow expecting.  We went through something last year (not anything on this scale, just an accusation of theft that was being investigated by police - I say 'just' but that is still pretty serious - nothing came of it in the end as was right because it was a false accusation, but it was horrific to go through) and it just leaves you drained.  You don't stop being angry, but you get to a point where you're actually too tired and drained and stressed to display any emotion about it other than resignation.



Yeah, that's understandable (and sorry you went through something horrible too). I really don't think they 'got' how outrageous it all was though (stuff like Brendan being grilled for hours without his lawyer present), I suppose partly because all the leading figures seemed to have very low IQs. But I also think there seemed to be an element of just expecting no protection from those in power. They just seemed to be completely disenfranchised.


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## Epona (Jan 11, 2016)

polly said:


> Yeah, that's understandable (and sorry you went through something horrible too). I really don't think they 'got' how outrageous it all was though (stuff like Brendan being grilled for hours without his lawyer present), I suppose partly because all the leading figures seemed to have very low IQs. But I also think there seemed to be an element of just expecting no protection from those in power. They just seemed to be completely disenfranchised.



I wasn't for a second btw trying to say that my situation was in any way comparable with this, just that I can understand how people can become resigned to being accused of things.


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## BigMoaner (Jan 11, 2016)

SamSav said:


> Watched this based on your recommendation, great shout. Was another fascinating watch. The bit at the very end of the last episode was scary, shame there is not more of these type of documentary series out there, I could watch them all day.


glad you enjoyed.

I found him horribly likable. Totally world weary, cool as ice. Obviously with a real cuntish side. 

True crime done well - book or film - is incredibly entertaining/fascinating. Read the Brian Masters' book on Dennis Nielson. Another masterpiece of the genre.


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## Epona (Jan 11, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> glad you enjoyed.
> 
> I found him horribly likable. Totally world weary, cool as ice. Obviously with a real cuntish side.
> 
> True crime done well - book or film - is incredibly entertaining/fascinating. Read the Brian Masters' book on Dennis Nielson. Another masterpiece of the genre.



Do you mean Nilsen?


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## Maharani (Jan 11, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> glad you enjoyed.
> 
> I found him horribly likable. Totally world weary, cool as ice. Obviously with a real cuntish side.
> 
> True crime done well - book or film - is incredibly entertaining/fascinating. Read the Brian Masters' book on Dennis Nielson. Another masterpiece of the genre.


Why 'obviously with a real cuntish side'?


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## BigMoaner (Jan 11, 2016)

Maharani said:


> Why 'obviously with a real cuntish side'?


remember we are talking about a different show to this one.

the guy we are talking about committed a handful of murders...hence his cuntish side


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## BigMoaner (Jan 11, 2016)

Epona said:


> Do you mean Nilsen?


do you already know the answer to that 
yes, i mean nilsen.


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## Maharani (Jan 11, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> remember we are talking about a different show to this one.
> 
> the guy we are talking about committed a handful of murders...hence his cuntish side


No I hadn't remembered!


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## Epona (Jan 11, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> remember we are talking about a different show to this one.
> 
> the guy we are talking about committed a handful of murders...hence his cuntish side



I actually have no idea what you are talking about, if it's a different issue than the one on this thread, then it's all getting a bit confusing.


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## BigMoaner (Jan 11, 2016)

Epona said:


> I actually have no idea what you are talking about, if it's a different issue than the one on this thread, then it's all getting a bit confusing.


me and SamSave were discussing on this thread, briefly, a show called the Jinx - the main subject of which I said I found likeable, but not really as he also killed a lot of people.

I also recommended to SamSave a book about Nilsen, another good True Crime work.


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## LiamO (Jan 11, 2016)

CRUDE SPOILER ALERT - DON'T FUCKIN READ THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED IT YET... at least til someone PMs me how to do the spolier thing properly  

 My attention was caught by the shifty brother in episode 2 (I think)  - him and that fucking slimy ex-boyfriend. 

His very first interview contained something of a freudian slip where he used the wrong tense when talking about his sister... and then corrected himself. I'm only on episode 6 and the kids are asking why I am shouting at the telly. 

The stuff with the phone messages is completely mind-boggling. Btw epona. I'm pretty sure it was the 'ex' rather than the brother who (smirking as he said it) 'guessed' her password.

I don't think there is any great, pre-planned conspiracy on the part of the cops... yet... just a shower of cunts deciding who the guilty man was and 'making' all the evidence fit him to the completely illogical exclusion of all others. 

but the 'finding' of a (ahem) key piece of evidence by two cops who had recently been questioned over the law suit from their previous frame-up of the same guy... who had NO business being there... just lying openly on the floor of his bedroom... which had already been searched by many people over the previous  3 days...


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## Nanker Phelge (Jan 11, 2016)

Watching West of Memphis on Netflix. Another fucking disasterof a case.


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## moomoo (Jan 11, 2016)

Just finished watching it.  God, that was a rollercoaster!


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## Diamond (Jan 12, 2016)

Again - just to reiterate, if you like this stuff, The Staircase is in my view an even more fascinating true crime doc in the same vein.

Entire series here:



I warn that it is about six and a half hours long!  But well worth it.


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## Voley (Jan 12, 2016)

moomoo said:
			
		

> Just finished watching it.  God, that was a rollercoaster!



Wasn't it just? It just gets more and more unreal as the series unfolds.


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## mack (Jan 13, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Watching West of Memphis on Netflix. Another fucking disasterof a case.



Watched this last night, another great documentary worth watching, thanks for the heads up.


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## moomoo (Jan 13, 2016)

Has everyone watched MAM now then? What do you think? I don't think they are guilty because there is no evidence! I just feel so sorry for Brendan.


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## kittyP (Jan 13, 2016)

Voley said:


> There are plenty of bits that are very uncomfortable to watch, right enough. And I did find myself wondering if it was entertainment, too. Overall though, I think the programme hit the right note. It could have been much more sensationalist and wouldn't have been as good.



I think something to remember also is that we are not used to seeing such a level of TV coverage of court cases in this country whilst it is very common in America.


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## kittyP (Jan 13, 2016)

Maharani said:


> tried to add a spoiler alert, didn't work.
> Edited to try again aftee reading peterkro 's instructions properly.
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I personally thought that the brother that they kept interviewing throughout seemed very suspicious but I don't know if that was just how the programme makers wanted it to look though iyswim?


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## kittyP (Jan 13, 2016)

Spoiler






LiamO said:


> I don't think there is any great, pre-planned conspiracy on the part of the cops.
> 
> but the 'finding' of a (ahem) key piece of evidence by two cops who had recently been questioned over the law suit from their previous frame-up of the same guy... who had NO business being there... just lying openly on the floor of his bedroom... which had already been searched by many people over the previous  3 days...



Those two paragraphs conflict each other. 

And if you don't think it was a pre-planned police conspiracy then SA definitely did it coz of the burnt bones. 

Or do you mean that you don't think the police killed her?


----------



## kittyP (Jan 13, 2016)

moomoo said:


> Just finished watching it.  God, that was a rollercoaster!



It really was huh!?
My heart broke for Brendan most of all 
He reminds me of some of the young men I have worked with. 
It's an utter disgrace the way he was treated. 

It is the most compelling, gripping TV series I have ever watched I think. 
It did feel weird being entertained by something real and so horrific but I also think it is good that it has gripped the audiences so well as at least the story is being heard!


----------



## kittyP (Jan 13, 2016)

Something else that really struck me about how the US is different was how much they made of and kept banging on about Teresa attending church! 
How that fucking awful investigator working Brendan's "defence" lawyer kept fucking crying saying "I am sorry I just can't stop thinking about the ribbon outside her church" 

And, whilst not really to do with the case, did the video of her strike anyone as really weird? 
She seemed like she was actually acting out a character not just talking about herself.


----------



## moomoo (Jan 13, 2016)

kittyP said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I personally thought that the brother that they kept interviewing throughout seemed very suspicious but I don't know if that was just how the programme makers wanted it to look though iyswim?



We thought that as well. And the ex boyfriend. Proper shifty...


----------



## Maharani (Jan 13, 2016)

kittyP said:


> Something else that really struck me about how the US is different was how much they made of and kept banging on about Teresa attending church!
> How that fucking awful investigator working Brendan's "defence" lawyer kept fucking crying saying "I am sorry I just can't stop thinking about the ribbon outside her church"
> 
> And, whilst not really to do with the case, did the video of her strike anyone as really weird?
> She seemed like she was actually acting out a character not just talking about herself.


Yeah he was plain weird and the ribbon scene was just wtf.


----------



## Athos (Jan 13, 2016)

SPOILER

Great series.

In my opinion, *if* the programme accurately represented all the evidence, then neither ought to have been convicted. Not because I'm convinced of their innocence (particularly Avery's), but because of the serious problems with the investigation. That's both in terms of the failure to pursue obvious lines of enquiry which might have pointed away from Avery's guilt e.g. the deleted voicemails, Bobby's change of evidence coupled with him and Tadych providing mutual alibis etc.; and the very strong implication that they attempted to frame him e.g. 'finding' the key.

Katz's criticism of the series are interesting, particularly that the programme underplayed Avery's criminal past, and didn't cover his previous interaction with the victim, or the fact that DNA from his sweat was found on the latch of the hood of her car. But, without going through the transcripts of the trial, it's hard to assess these claims.

If forced to nail my colours to the mast, I'd say I think it more likely than not that Brendan was not involved, but more likely than not that Avery was. Recognising that that's not the standard of proof required for a criminal conviction, and that there's scope for others to have committed the crime - most likely sometime on the property.

I suspect some law enforcement officers did act corruptly  in trying to ensure he'd be convicted, and that this was probably motivated by both a belief that he was guilty, and self-interest regarding the litigation.


----------



## kittyP (Jan 13, 2016)

Spoiler






Athos said:


> Katz's criticism of the series are interesting, particularly that the programme underplayed Avery's criminal past, and didn't cover *his previous interaction with the victim*



Do you have a link to this?


----------



## Athos (Jan 13, 2016)

moomoo said:


> Has everyone watched MAM now then? What do you think? I don't think they are guilty because there is no evidence! I just feel so sorry for Brendan.



It's not true to say there is no evidence: there's the bones, the shell cases (with DNA), her car being found on the property, Avery's blood in the car, the key and Brendan's confessions.  Surely it's that you're not convinced by the evidence for a variety of reasons e.g. the key was probably planted, the irregularities with the DNA testing, etc.


----------



## moomoo (Jan 13, 2016)

Athos said:


> It's not true to say there is no evidence: there's the bones, the shell cases (with DNA), her car being found on the property, Avery's blood in the car, the key and Brendan's confessions.  Surely it's that you're not convinced by the evidence for a variety of reasons e.g. the key was probably planted, the irregularities with the DNA testing, etc.



Yes. That's what I meant.


----------



## Athos (Jan 13, 2016)

kittyP

Bustle


----------



## kittyP (Jan 13, 2016)

Athos said:


> kittyP
> 
> Bustle



Cheers


----------



## Voley (Jan 13, 2016)

kittyP said:
			
		

> I think something to remember also is that we are not used to seeing such a level of TV coverage of court cases in this country whilst it is very common in America.



What struck me is how much is prejudicial to the trial. That defence lawyer who was spouting off to the media about 'evil incarnate' before he'd even met his client. Absolutely insane.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jan 13, 2016)

Something the brother said that I found weird...



Spoiler: Spoiler



Interviewer: “How are you holding up?”

Mike Halbach: “Um . . . I mean… the grieving process, you know, could last days, could last weeks, could last years. You know hopefully, we find answers as soon as possible so we can, you know, begin to . . . hopefully, you know, move on, hopefully with Teresa still in our life.”

Why discuss grieving for someone you have yet to discover is dead.

The other scene I found strange is when, after the Rav4 has been found, the brother and ex boyfriend get all shifty when asked if they have ever been on the Avery land. I found them way too defensive in that moment.....and in addition, if my sister had last been seen on a plot of land that members of the public could access fairly easily, I would be up there in a flash....


----------



## Ms T (Jan 16, 2016)

I.m watching it now and it's making me very cross indeed about the shit the US "Justice" system gets away with.


----------



## Ms T (Jan 16, 2016)

Thora said:


> I'm up to episode 4, it's pretty depressing.  Especially the "confession" of the 16 year old with an IQ of 65 where the investigator is just instructing him to draw pictures!


And this. It's like interrogating a 10-year-old.


----------



## Ms T (Jan 16, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> Excellent documentary. Good to see Ken Kratz get his comeuppance, the foul sack of shit that he is. Amazing how the American justice system works. And terrifying. As one lawyer says, most people won't commit a crime, but anybody could be accused of committing one. And that's when you will need hundreds of thousands of dollars to save yourself from being locked up for life.


Have you seen The Jinx? It illustrates perfectly how money can get you off. See also OJ Simpson.


----------



## Shirl (Jan 16, 2016)

Just out of interest, having read the thread, why would anyone watch this?


----------



## Thora (Jan 16, 2016)

Why would anyone watch a documentary about anything?


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 16, 2016)

Shirl said:


> Just out of interest, having read the thread, why would anyone watch this?


It's worth watching, I reckon.  I know some people have avoided spoilers, but I knew how it ends and I'd seen most of the evidence alluded to - and yet I still watched it with my jaw dropped in shock.


----------



## moomoo (Jan 16, 2016)

Shirl said:


> Just out of interest, having read the thread, why would anyone watch this?



It's fascinating!


----------



## Shirl (Jan 16, 2016)

I'm not convinced  I used to quite like  crime docudrama but since doing jury service last summer I can't stand any sort of real life crime tv. I can't even really find the words to describe how I feel but it's a bit like the worst kind of voyeurism for me.


----------



## Shirl (Jan 16, 2016)

Thora said:


> Why would anyone watch a documentary about anything?


That's a good point. I don't usually watch documentaries.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 16, 2016)

Ms T said:


> Have you seen The Jinx? It illustrates perfectly how money can get you off. See also OJ Simpson.



Not yet. Waiting for it to come onto Netflix. OJ I did see.



Shirl said:


> Just out of interest, having read the thread, why would anyone watch this?



It's compulsive viewing. You just want to see how the twists and turns pan out and are constantly trying to work out what the fuck really happened.


----------



## moomoo (Jan 16, 2016)

Shirl said:


> I'm not convinced  I used to quite like  crime docudrama but since doing jury service last summer I can't stand any sort of real life crime tv. I can't even really find the words to describe how I feel but it's a bit like the worst kind of voyeurism for me.



I get that. It's not comfortable viewing but it's interesting. And tbh, it gave me something else to talk about other than the kids!


----------



## Shirl (Jan 16, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> It's compulsive viewing. You just want to see how the twists and turns pan out and are constantly trying to work out what the fuck really happened.


I am really quite fascinated by my change in attitude since doing jury service last year. I was always interested in crime and criminality, now I find it very difficult to think about


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 16, 2016)

I've never been into True Crime stuff, cos it all seems to focus around a salacious / mawkish interest in the detail around murder.

This is less about the crime, and more about the justice system - iykwim.


----------



## Shirl (Jan 17, 2016)

spanglechick said:


> I've never been into True Crime stuff, cos it all seems to focus around a salacious / mawkish interest in the detail around murder.
> 
> This is less about the crime, and more about the justice system - iykwim.


It's often just the title that puts me off. There seem to be so many so called documentaries that from just reading the title I assume are going to be 'just look at these weirdos' kind of television. I don't really trust television any more.


----------



## Ranu (Jan 17, 2016)

Spoiler



The thing I couldn't understand was that the prosecution in the Avery case seemingly proved beyond reasonable doubt that the murder happened in Avery's garage.  Yet the prosecution in his nephew's case proved beyond reasonable doubt that the murder happened in Avery's bedroom.  That seemed to go unnoticed, or did I miss a bit?  Surely an appeal could have been built around that contradiction.


----------



## Reno (Jan 17, 2016)

Shirl said:


> It's often just the title that puts me off. There seem to be so many so called documentaries that from just reading the title I assume are going to be 'just look at these weirdos' kind of television. I don't really trust television any more.



When something is a true crime thing on Channel 5 then it's in all likelihood crap. When it's a several hour documentary on HBO and Netflix, who have a reputation for quality TV series, it has a chance to be pretty good. These recent true crime series are as gripping as any thriller and there are very well made. They aren't freak shows, thats generally reality tv which is a different thing.


----------



## Reno (Jan 17, 2016)

Minor spoilers below:



Just finished watching it all. It's good, but it didn't have me as gripped as Serial or The Jinx, the succes of both of which are very likely the case that Netflix commissioned this. This lacks a compelling central character like The Jinx did in Robert Durst and it covers very similar ground to Serial. This also is the flip side of The Jinx. The Jinx was about how an extremely rich murderer evades the law due to his privileged position (no spoiler, the first episode is about him confessing to killing someone and then it gets more jawdroppingly batshit from there on) and due to a flawed judicial system. Making a Murderer is about two poor men who probably didn't commit a murder or who at least should have reasonable doubt on their side, don't stand a chance.

Of these three recent true crime series, this one most obviously had an agenda from the start. I was a little troubled by how little interest the series had in the murder victim and the unsympathetic way with which it treated her brother who was the representative for the victim's family. His only "crime" was that he put his trust in the law, which usually is the case with the families of murder victims. I also have my doubts about someone who kills the family pet in a manner so cruel that they go to prison for it (maybe the local police force were cat lovers and that's how he got on their shit list). The series glossed over this and other aspects which could have shifted ones sympathies from the film makers cause.  There is no doubt though that several of the characters on the side of the law made for extremely hissable villains.

I though at ten hours it was too long and often repetitive. I'm not that shocked at how corrupt and incompetent US law enforcement and the judicial system can be. Plenty of examples if you follow US news and the podcast This American Life had similar cases. It still was involving for the most part, but think it would have worked just as well at half the length or it could have devoted more of that time to other perspectives.


----------



## girasol (Jan 17, 2016)

Won't watch the whole thing, too long, too much detail. Also it's not my kind of thing. Murder for entertainment stopped interesting me a while ago. It did grab me at first: to see how justice systems can go wrong but it just drags on and on. Episode 6 on now but I lost interest... Especially now I have googled it. Not convinced Avery is innocent either after doing some reading.


----------



## ffsear (Jan 20, 2016)

moomoo said:


> I've just watched episode 4.  I can't believe the way Brandon was treated! it's outrageous!



Its unbelievable,  He clearly is heavily autistic and really didn't understand what he was being asked most of the time.

Steven Avery's defence lawyers were brilliant I thought.  How they can go from 7 of 12 initially stating not guilty to a guilty verdict is beyond me.


----------



## Glitter (Jan 20, 2016)

Is this only on Netflix?


----------



## moomoo (Jan 20, 2016)

Glitter said:


> Is this only on Netflix?



Yes. x


----------



## Glitter (Jan 20, 2016)

moomoo said:


> Yes. x



Bah.  x


----------



## moomoo (Jan 20, 2016)

Glitter said:


> Bah.  x



Sorry.


----------



## leanderman (Jan 20, 2016)

Spoiler: Spoiler



It was grim, but riveting. The conviction of Brendan appears unsafe. But I am not sure with Steven, because the documentary very much took his side.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 21, 2016)

The fucking public defender 

Is there no appropriate adult system there. A 16 year old with an IQ of 65 is interrogated alone for hours and its admissable. 

Jesus. 

Will be back in a few episodes.


----------



## Ranbay (Jan 22, 2016)

Watched it all in 3 nights, thing that gets me is, they both got found guilt of different ways of killing her.....


----------



## innit (Jan 22, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> Watched it all in 3 nights, thing that gets me is, they both got found guilt of different ways of killing her.....


I thought it was unfair on Steven's jury, who convicted him after being sold one story,  that the state then presented a totally different set of facts as the truth in Brendan's trial which they might have found totally unconvincing. Although the jury in Brendan's trial clearly managed to get over that, so who knows.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jan 22, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> Watched it all in 3 nights, thing that gets me is, they both got found guilt of different ways of killing her.....



Indeed. Evidence that the prosecuter accepted made no sense in in Steven's case was re-presented as fact by the same prosecuter in the Brendan case. It was bonkers.


----------



## 1%er (Jan 22, 2016)

Glitter said:


> Is this only on Netflix?


No, it is also on many sites. You can watch it all here (There are around 70 links for each episode). I watch Vodlocker.com links most of the time if I'm watching TV shows via the Internet, you will get pop-ups before the show starts and you don't need to download anything (SO DON"T), all the episodes are available from the above link and all have options for Vodlocker.com as far as I know.


----------



## Geoffrey (Jan 23, 2016)

Just watched the whole thing over the last week.  Fascinating but and absolute tragedy.  Still in a bit of disbelief about it.


----------



## Glitter (Jan 30, 2016)

I've just signed up to Netflix to get this. Thank you to the people who gave me links but I'm not great at watching TV on a tablet. Husband is out tonight so I'm going to start it.


----------



## sim667 (Feb 3, 2016)

I'm on episode 9 at the moment. At times I have to remind myself it's an actual case. The narrative is insane


----------



## Reno (Feb 4, 2016)

sim667 said:


> I'm on episode 9 at the moment. At times I have to remind myself it's an actual case. The narrative is insane


It's not if you follow how the law and law enforcement work in the US.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 4, 2016)

I watched this all last week. Unbelievable. It's not often that I shout at the TV.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 4, 2016)

I think it's been difficult for a lot of people to accept that this series has been about the fucked up legal system in the US and not a show about the guilt or innocence of the two accused.

I have had lots of discussions with people obsessed with Brendan and Steven's innocence, but I found it impossible to make any decision on that from what was shown on screen. There was a lot that was not shown on screen, including some evidence that was not presented in the TV representation.

I think they key point of the show is that trial was a travesty and the only outcome should have been a proper retrial.


----------



## sim667 (Feb 4, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I think it's been difficult for a lot of people to accept that this series has been about the fucked up legal system in the US and not a show about the guilt or innocence of the two accused.
> 
> I have had lots of discussions with people obsessed with Brendan and Steven's innocence, but I found it impossible to make any decision on that from what was shown on screen. There was a lot that was not shown on screen, including some evidence that was not presented in the TV representation.
> 
> I think they key point of the show is that trial was a travesty and the only outcome should have been a proper retrial.



I think the whole point of the documentary is to make the point they can never have a proper trial, after a full on miscarriage of justice 18 years older.

If they hadn't been found guilty, would the second trial still have let the police off the hook for the 36 mil that that insurance weren't prepared to pay?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 4, 2016)

sim667 said:


> If they hadn't been found guilty, would the second trial still have let the police off the hook for the 36 mil that that insurance weren't prepared to pay?



I doubt it.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 4, 2016)

Especially given that Avery took the lesser payout before the trial even began.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 4, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I think it's been difficult for a lot of people to accept that this series has been about the fucked up legal system in the US and not a show about the guilt or innocence of the two accused.



Yes - if conclusive evidence were to be found in the future that showed one or both of them really is guilty - it wouldn't affect in the slightest the fact of the truly shocking way their trials were conducted.

One thing that was interesting is the extent to which all the proceedings and evidence seems to be quite open to examination in the US - I gather it wouldn't be possible to make a similar documentary in this country as trials aren't filmed and I think all the transcripts of proceedings are destroyed after 6 years or something.


----------



## Reno (Feb 4, 2016)

I don't quite understand why this has become such a huge thing here, while the far better The Jinx hasn't (at least not in the UK). It did make waves in the US where the show also had real life repercussions on the case. The Jinx is the inverse of Making a Murderer, being about someone who has gotten away with murder for decades because he is rich and influential and the legal system in that case is equally grotesque because Robert Durst never went to prison. What The Jinx has over Making a Murderer is a truly compelling central character and far better pacing. It's slightly different in that the documentary film-maker is a character in the series who investigates the case, which I also think makes The Jinx a little more honest in that it doesn't pretend to be subjective.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 4, 2016)

I watched the Jinx just before Making a Murderer. It was also very good.

Anyone who liked The Jinx should watch a film called The Act of Killing. It's one of the most terrifying/fascinating/disturbing/baffling documentaries I've ever seen.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 4, 2016)

And I think the reason the Jinx hasn't created such a big reaction is that the notion of a (probably guilty) person not being convicted in a situation where evidence may have been missed, in what seems a highly unusual case, is much less scary than the notion of a (possibly inoocent) person getting convicted despite no convincing evidence being presented.

MaM provokes much more of a "that could have been me" response.


----------



## quimcunx (Feb 4, 2016)

Reno said:


> I don't quite understand why this has become such a huge thing here, while the far better The Jinx hasn't (at least not in the UK). It did make waves in the US where the show also had real life repercussions on the case. The Jinx is the inverse of Making a Murderer, being about someone who has gotten away with murder for decades because he is rich and influential and the legal system in that case is equally grotesque because Robert Durst never went to prison. What The Jinx has over Making a Murderer is a truly compelling central character and far better pacing. It's slightly different in that the documentary film-maker is a character in the series who investigates the case, which I also think makes The Jinx a little more honest in that it doesn't pretend to be subjective.



Making a Murderer is on Netflix, a legal internet tv service that has become exceedingly popular.  When I took a look at the jinx it was on some dodgy streaming site.  Maybe if Netflix carry it and promote it, it will be more talked about.  by the by I watched the first episode but haven't been back which doesn't really speak to it being more compelling.   Especially if one was privy to how often and quickly I will binge series on Netflix.


----------



## Reno (Feb 4, 2016)

quimcunx said:


> Making a Murderer is on Netflix, a legal internet tv service that has become exceedingly popular.  When I took a look at the jinx it was on some dodgy streaming site.  Maybe if Netflix carry it and promote it, it will be more talked about.  by the by I watched the first episode but haven't been back which doesn't really speak to it being more compelling.   Especially if one was privy to how often and quickly I will binge series on Netflix.


The Jinx was on Sky, but I assume most people here torrented Making a Murderer anyway. You should stick with The Jinx, it has revelations and plot twists which made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. And it avoids the repetitiveness which Making a Murderer falls into. I just found The Jinx a far more skillful piece of documentary/film making.

I nearly gave up after four episodes of Making a Murder but once the court case  started I found it more compelling. I still found it way too long. I'm just not surprised that the US can have a legal system which is 3rd world worthy.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 4, 2016)

I never heard of The Jinx tbh, until after Making a Murderer (and the two were being compared). It's just turned up on prime, but it's on the pay per view bit and not the subscription bit...so fuck that. I tried finding it on Kodi, but the links didn't really work....so I'll wait for it to appear somewhere sensible....

I don't do sky.


----------



## Reno (Feb 4, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I don't do sky.



Quality torrents available. It was an HBO production.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 4, 2016)

Reno said:


> Quality torrents available. It was an HBO production.



I quit torrenting ages ago....have shit internet


----------



## Diamond (Feb 4, 2016)

Just want to big up The Staircase another time.

The Michael Peterson case and the documentary around _both_ the prosecution and the defence is absolutely brilliant.

Jean Xavier Lestrade was given almost immediate access subsequent the death of Peterson's wife and followed the whole trial in minute detail and it is a fascinating case.

There is an almost 50/50 split, largely between genders, as to whether Michael Peterson is guilty or not from the people that I have recommended it to:



Would be interested to know whether a connoisseur like Reno would have an opinion on that series.


----------



## Reno (Feb 4, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Just want to big up The Staircase another time.
> 
> The Michael Peterson case and the documentary around _both_ the prosecution and the defence is absolutely brilliant.
> 
> ...



I've never seen it but heard it's very good.


----------



## Diamond (Feb 4, 2016)

Just started watching The Jinx

Is it not massively prejudicial?


----------



## Reno (Feb 4, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Just started watching The Jinx
> 
> Is it not massively prejudicial?


What of ?

Maybe watch a little more than 10 minutes before you make up your mind about it. There is six hours of plot turns and revelations.


----------



## Diamond (Feb 4, 2016)

Reno said:


> What of ?
> 
> (And maybe watch a little more than 10 minutes before you make up your mind about it. There s six hours of plot turns and revelations)



Only third episode in but it seems to be assuming his guilt and amplifying it while this guy is still on trial


----------



## Reno (Feb 4, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Only third episode in but it seems to be assuming his guilt and amplifying it while this guy is still on trial


Watch it to the end and then we can talk.

Though even at this point: 



Spoiler



you don't think it's a little strange that when Robert Durst confessed to murdering his neighbour and cutting up his body to dispose of it and not going to prison for that was a little strange ? Think about it, who kills in self defence and then cuts up a body to quietly dispose of it ?



I find The Jinx far less suspect than Making a Murderer. There were no reports of the film-makers omitting evidence. Here he discovers the evidence as the series goes along and acts according to what he finds. Making a Murderer had all the footage from the start and shaped it into an arguement, this series is an ongoing investigation. With Making a Murderer I was pretty much convinced of the guys innocence and it was reading up on it afterwards which cast doubt on the whole series. With The Jinx there are no doubts left by the end.

The most amazing thing is that Durst chose to take part on his own accord and that pays off big time.


----------



## wayward bob (Feb 5, 2016)

Reno said:


> I find The Jinx far less suspect than Making a Murderer. There were no reports of the film-makers omitting evidence.





Spoiler



not omitting it as such, but they did face questions about how long they sat on the key piece of evidence before telling the cops, some suggested it took over a year. the fact he was arrested *the day before the series finale aired* is otherwise one hell of a coincidence...


----------



## Ms T (Feb 5, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Just started watching The Jinx
> 
> Is it not massively prejudicial?


Here it would be, yes, but the laws are different in the US.


----------



## innit (Feb 5, 2016)

Ms T said:


> Here it would be, yes, but the laws are different in the US.


And not in a good way, judging from MaM.


----------



## oneunder (Feb 5, 2016)

The Jinx ending was excellent. creepy as fuck . great defence too i suspect


----------



## mack (Feb 5, 2016)

Just about to watch the 1st episode of American Crime Story - 10 part series on the OJ case. Available on all torrent sites for those inclined.

ETA..what a cheese fest..


----------



## wiskey (Feb 6, 2016)

Watched all of MaM in 24 hours ... gripping definitely, utterly terrifying in a 'what if someone decided I did something and I got locked up for life' kinda way. 

The American legal system is bonkers ... personally I still don't quite get the difference between county/state/federal law enforcement but I think tbh this was the whole point of the film. Whether Avery was guilty was a by-product of the complete fucked-upness of the whole system.


----------



## Gromit (Feb 24, 2016)

I hope never to be tried by an American jury because they appear to be dumb as skunks.

There is an orgy of evidence in this case which in of itself is suspicious (to quote Minority Report).

If Steve Avery did do the murder he did such a piss poor job of it that you'd have to think he either wanted to be caught (in which case he'd confess) or is the laziest murderer ever born.


Spoiler



You have access to a car crusher but don't crush the car?





Spoiler



You hide the body on your own property instead of moving the remains to somewhere else?





Spoiler



You cut your finger but let it freely bleed everywhere? The cut was on his left hand but the blood stain is on the right hand side of the steering column? That makes no sense. Why would he ever touch that part of the car, especially with that hand.





Spoiler



You move a car but keep the key in your bedroom? Really?



The only theory that i can lodge which gives him motive is that he missed being the unjustly accused victim of a crime. That it had been his identity for 18 years and he wanted it back. But I don't think he is smart enough to engineer a chain of evidence to implicate wrong doing by the police.

As for Brandon.


Spoiler



Why the hell would they believe a confession where none of the evidence supports his confession? Forget the duress of a simple minded individual. There are no chain marks on the bed. No rope marks on the bed. No blood in the room. No hairs in the room. No evidence of him being in that room. If the crime took place it certainly didn't take place as he described. In court they kept asking how did you know those details then? But they weren't details. There is no evidence that they are true details.


----------



## wiskey (Feb 24, 2016)

It occurred to me earlier ...



Spoiler



"that before I watched it I read a snippet somewhere on the net which went along the lines of ...
viewers had noticed that in the often used photo of the victim she's seen holding a bunch of keys, yet only one key was found, in the bedroom - so where did all the other keys go? (ie house keys etc) that were on the bunch. I never found out if anything came of that line of enquiry"


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 24, 2016)

Just watched all of the Jinx. Wow. Every bit as disturbing as Making. And incredible to watch him get found not guilty of murder after dismembering the body, dumping it in the water, and then going back to retrieve the head to make it more difficult to identify the cadaver.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 30, 2016)

.


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 30, 2016)

There is a case update I've just seen on bbc news but I can not add link via phone.

New suspects apparently.


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## OneStrike (Mar 30, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> There is a case update I've just seen on bbc news but I can not add link via phone.
> 
> New suspects apparently.



Link to Nankers bbc news story,  Making A Murderer: Steven Avery's lawyer has 'new suspects'

Zellner, Avery's brief, claims he has an air-tight alibi and that she has a key suspect in mind though doesn't want to name names in case said person absconds. You can read more on the link provided.


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## Ted Striker (Aug 12, 2016)

Brendan is being released! Making a Murderer subject Brendan Dassey's conviction overturned - BBC News

Conviction has been quashed

(also, series 2 is coming...)
Netflix confirms season two of Making a Murderer


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## moomoo (Aug 12, 2016)

Hurrah!!


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## BigMoaner (Aug 12, 2016)

all you making a murderer fans....

...now watch The Jinx. True crime at it's ultimate greatness.


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## moomoo (Aug 12, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> all you making a murderer fans....
> 
> ...now watch The Jinx. True crime at it's ultimate greatness.



What's it about?


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## BigMoaner (Aug 12, 2016)

a billionaire serial killer. the doc team had access to him for months and months.

at teh start he denies everything...by the end...well i won't give anything away.

and if you don't find him horribly likable on some level...i guess the classic psychopathic charm.

incredible mini series. it was on the putlockers.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 12, 2016)




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## moomoo (Aug 12, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> a billionaire serial killer. the doc team had access to him for months and months.
> 
> at teh start he denies everything...by the end...well i won't give anything away.
> 
> ...



Sounds right up our street! Is it on Netflix?


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## BigMoaner (Aug 12, 2016)

nope, on all hte putlockers though.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 12, 2016)

if you're not on virgin, just google putlocker The jinx. putlocker.is has it i think.


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## baffled (Aug 12, 2016)

The Jinx is really good and I'd agree that he is oddly very likeable.

Edit; there's a user on daily motion who has the whole series up billyjones2k14

Link to playlist doesn't seem to work

The Jinx - The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst


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## BigMoaner (Aug 12, 2016)

baffled said:


> The Jinx is really good and I'd agree that he is oddly very likeable.


totally world weary is what i thought. totally sick of everything, whilst sitting on billions. but yeah, you can only warm so much to such a character.


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## pengaleng (Aug 12, 2016)

jinx is well good, making a murderer is longed out redneck crap.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 12, 2016)

pengaleng said:


> jinx is well good, making a murderer is longed out redneck crap.


what did you make of durst?


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## Reno (Aug 13, 2016)

I thought The Jinx was amazing but there is a difference between a murderer being compelling and "very likeable". I thought Durst was ultimately rather loathsome.


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## DrRingDing (Aug 13, 2016)

Making a Murderer subject Brendan Dassey's conviction overturned - BBC News

The nephew has had his conviction overturned.


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## teuchter (Aug 13, 2016)

Good.


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## baffled (Aug 13, 2016)

Reno said:


> I thought The Jinx was amazing but there is a difference between a murderer being compelling and "very likeable". I thought Durst was ultimately rather loathsome.



Yeah compelling would've been a better choice of words.


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## pengaleng (Aug 13, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> what did you make of durst?



tbh boring, whiny, it's as if the american police dont have previous of this type of shit, I dont know why anyone was surprised.

it was just some boring story, at least jinx dude probably did it.


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## Idris2002 (Aug 13, 2016)

pengaleng said:


> it's as if the american police dont have previous of this type of shit, I dont know why anyone was surprised.



You're not wrong there, there's the case of the Memphis 3 for example.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 13, 2016)

pengaleng said:


> tbh boring, whiny, it's as if the american police dont have previous of this type of shit, I dont know why anyone was surprised.
> 
> it was just some boring story, at least jinx dude probably did it.


Durst IS the jinx one


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## pengaleng (Aug 13, 2016)

well fucking sorry ok I am high and I got MS ffs

i got em mixed roungd

that guy is a fuckin G


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## BigMoaner (Aug 13, 2016)

pengaleng said:


> well fucking sorry ok I am high and I got MS ffs
> 
> i got em mixed roungd


Okay then go to bed.


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## pengaleng (Aug 13, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Okay then go to bed.




erm????? wtf is this?  gotta go to bed cus I'm disabled isit? BigCunt you coulda just gone oh ok, you got em mixed up no big deal. like someone normal.

am well sorry I got the names mixed up but am sure you can work it out.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 13, 2016)

Why don't you just fuck off and go and have a massive poo on the toilet.


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## pengaleng (Aug 13, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Why don't you just fuck off and go and have a massive poo on the toilet.




well dunno wtf this is about.

you sound like you need to sort your life out tho.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 13, 2016)

pengaleng said:


> well dunno wtf this is about.


Lol. Enjoy your high and relax.


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## pengaleng (Aug 13, 2016)

dont worry, I wont post on yer little murder stories thread any more, it obviously aint for people like me.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 13, 2016)

pengaleng said:


> dont worry, I wont post on yer little murder stories thread any more, it obviously aint for people like me.


Up to you. Had a heavy night?


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## moomoo (Aug 13, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Up to you. Had a heavy night?



Stop it.


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## moomoo (Aug 13, 2016)

My boy sorted out Putlockers on my laptop for me and then told me it wasn't actually legal!


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## wiskey (Aug 13, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Up to you. Had a heavy night?



are you alright? you're being pretty off tbh


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## wiskey (Aug 13, 2016)

Anyway ... back on topic ... the ?lawyer for Brendan was on R4 at some ungodly time this morning and was explaining that until recently interviews with juveniles weren't recorded in the state, Brendan was one of the first cases where everything was recorded ... which is pretty barbaric imo, god knows how many other convictions have gone through where they've coerced the defendant like they did with him


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## BigMoaner (Aug 13, 2016)

wiskey said:


> are you alright? you're being pretty off tbh


Really? I just said to him that durst was from the jinx. Then he called me a cunt. And said that I was having a go at him. There was no intension of offence but he went into one. So I went along with him. Hope he's not too upset! He added the disabled bit later btw.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 13, 2016)

Pengaleng, you okay chap?


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## wiskey (Aug 13, 2016)

I doubt he's very upset at all. I just think you went too far with the heavy night bit.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 13, 2016)

moomoo said:


> My boy sorted out Putlockers on my laptop for me and then told me it wasn't actually legal!


Its not, I don't think. I do feel for the film industry in many ways.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 13, 2016)

ive just read back and seen the MS. i honestly, and no one will believe me, thought that was a typo.

I am really sorry mate if my digs came across as a dig against MS. Fucking hell NO! I swear on my daughter's life that I didn't compute that when i first read it.

I just thought you were "high" as you said, and my heavy night comment was me trying to defuse the situation by having a chat about it, i like talkign to high people. Seriously, anyone who takes hte piss out of MS or any disability is a cunt of hte highest proportions and sorry if you thought me riling you up was riling you up over that! Or the fact that you were disabled (which i think you added later to clarify to thicko here that 'MS' meant disabled).

Donating £10 to MS charity today.


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## spanglechick (Aug 13, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> ive just read back and seen the MS. i honestly, and no one will believe me, thought that was a typo.
> 
> I am really sorry mate if my digs came across as a dig against MS. Fucking hell NO! I swear on my daughter's life that I didn't compute that when i first read it.
> 
> ...


Why is it so rare to see a proper apology on the Internet? Obviously, not my place to say whether or not it's enough, but it warms my heart to see someone properly try to make amends.


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## pengaleng (Aug 13, 2016)

ahhhhh they pm's me an apology earlier and I was like no worries and I aint even looked at this but am glad i did just now/.

you never had to give money to that bullshit charity tho they aggravate me cus they funded research into the wii and if it helps people with ms exercise, a fucking tramp on the street coulda told you that it does. lol still annoys me and i coulda done with a tenner.


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## DrRingDing (Sep 10, 2016)

Now he aint getting out.... Making a Murderer's Brendan Dassey may not get out of prison after all


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## Ax^ (Nov 20, 2016)

bit late to watching this.. and half way in 


but the american police system is a little scary is all I've got to say...

yay sure you can question a minor repeatedly without a responsible person being present in any capacity


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 20, 2018)

Ax^ said:


> bit late to watching this.. and half way in
> 
> 
> but the american police system is a little scary is all I've got to say...
> ...



It's back. Anyone watched any yet?


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## wiskey (Oct 20, 2018)

Nanker Phelge said:


> It's back. Anyone watched any yet?


What's back about it?


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## Looby (Oct 20, 2018)

wiskey said:


> What's back about it?


New series on Netflix.


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## wiskey (Oct 20, 2018)

Looby said:


> New series on Netflix.


Yeah but I cba to Google ... Same case with new info, same team with new case, something else?


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## rubbershoes (Oct 20, 2018)

wiskey said:


> Yeah but I cba to Google ... Same case with new info, same team with new case, something else?



Original case being appealed


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## Sue (Nov 8, 2018)

I'm about three episodes into the new series. There's lots of stuff about evidence that was in the trial that we didn't see in the first series, including the sweat DNA on the latch.


Spoiler



The more they go into the evidence, the more it looks like SA is innocent. Looks like the so-called sweat DNA was no such thing and that it was planted. SA's new lawyer has found huge gaps/inconsistencies in the prosecution's narrative.


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## Fozzie Bear (Nov 8, 2018)

Sue said:


> I'm about three episodes into the new series. There's lots of stuff about evidence that was in the trial that we didn't see in the first series, including the sweat DNA on the latch.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...



I was surprised how interesting the painstaking work around reviewing the evidence became during the 2nd series. The contrasting characters of the lawyers are cool too.


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## Numbers (Nov 8, 2018)

Really enjoyed it, didn't want it to end actually.  Throws up a few things I never thought of, we both agreed SA is innocent and also who we believe done it.


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## spellbinder (Nov 9, 2018)

I  liked the first one and felt really sorry for his mum, you could see the life draining from her in each episode. 

The whole series left me with a different opinion of him each time. He's innocent, he's guilty, he's innocent, he's guilty. I felt emotionally rung out by the end.

I don't have netflix


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## Sue (Nov 15, 2018)

Just finished the second series. Fucking hell.



Spoiler



Quite incredible how utterly despicable and hell bent the State is on keeping Brendan in jail. And all that forensic evidence that seemed to have been tampered with. 

And Bobby Dassey and Scott potentially being involved and Teresa Halbach's diary presumably being planted by the ex/flatmate. 

The whole thing is so fucked up, with the state/judiciary being more concerned about saving face than that two men are in jail when they very probably shouldn't be. Incredible. Oh, and Kathleen is massively kickass and Ken Kratz is such a sex pest weasel.


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## wiskey (Nov 22, 2018)

I'll happily watch the soon to appear Netflix documentary on Kathleen Zellner I'm sure someone is about to make  I find her fascinating.


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## Nine Bob Note (Nov 23, 2018)

Zellner appeared formidable, but she flip-flopped between accusing the ex-boyf one episode and Brendan's brother and stepfather the next, without explanation


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## wiskey (Nov 23, 2018)

Yeah I was a bit confused about the legalities of it ... You don't just have to prove your person is innocent you actually have to say 'and this bloke did it'... I think?


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## Sue (Nov 23, 2018)

Surely she was identifying inconsistencies/things that hadn't been investigated properly that pointed to other possible suspects?


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 23, 2018)

I’m about halfway through it. At the end of series one I was convinced he was guilty. And now I think the opposite. His ‘girlfriend’ was pretty disturbing, basically admitting that she was positioning herself to be on the second series.


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## Ted Striker (Nov 23, 2018)

Nine Bob Note said:


> Zellner appeared formidable, but she flip-flopped between accusing the ex-boyf one episode and Brendan's brother and stepfather the next, without explanation



I think that (pointing the finger) was overplayed as, iirc, in the original trials, the defence were not allowed to suggest an alternative killer? Which always struck me as a bit odd.


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## wiskey (Nov 23, 2018)

Ah maybe I got it wrong then, maybe saying 'but it was clearly him not me' isn't enough.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Jan 12, 2019)

Sue said:


> Just finished the second series. Fucking hell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kathleen is amazing!


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## HoratioCuthbert (Jan 12, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m about halfway through it. At the end of series one I was convinced he was guilty. And now I think the opposite.



Same!  It’s pretty scary what can happen to a person once they are in the system, it’s probably near enough impossible to definitively prove what happened to it’s down to how convincing a story each lawyer can tell. Hats off to Kathleen who seems to be really digging deep to try find out what happened, rather than just trying to navigate the law.


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## 1%er (Aug 24, 2022)

Kathleen Zellner has recently lodged a third "motion for post conviction relife" it can be viewed here.

She claims she has "new" evidence and that there is now clear evidence that Bobby Dassey is a clear "Denny suspect" (A Denny suspect is a third party who can be shown to have motive and opportunity to have committed the crime instead of the defendant.)

Apparently Kathleen Zellner made a new records request in May 2022 and a new clark who hadn't dealt with this case in the past released a load of new documents by "mistake" that hadn't been released before. Zellner is claiming some of this information should have been given to the defence and because it wasn't, this is a clear Brady violation (A Brady violations occur when the prosecution hides or fails to disclose evidence favorable to a criminal defendant.)

Watch out for a new series of Making a Murderer some time in 2023/4


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