# Stephen Lawrence murder trial begins at Old Bailey



## Fedayn (Nov 14, 2011)

....... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15716320



> Gary Dobson, 36, and David Norris, 35, both of south London, deny the charges.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2011)

this will end well


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## bi0boy (Nov 14, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> this will end well



...allegedly.


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## TopCat (Nov 14, 2011)

Lets let this run it's course eh? leave it 'till then.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 14, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Lets let this run it's course eh? leave it 'till then.


surely we can find something to argue about for the next two months until the verdict?


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## eoin_k (Nov 14, 2011)

Is the one whose father had alleged links with the dodgy private detective from the hacking scandal in the retrial?


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## William of Walworth (Nov 14, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Lets let this run it's course eh? leave it 'till then.



I agree with this, it's tempting to speculate and post stuff about the accused that we know from earlier, but doing that on here is chock full of risks ....


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## Mrs Magpie (Nov 14, 2011)

.....and I so want justice not to founder yet again that I really feel I ought to close this, or bin it or summat. Nothing personal, Feds. It's for The Greater Good


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## editor (Dec 13, 2011)

Thread reopened seeing as it's now being reported in the news.

Secret filming shown in court shows them to be a right pair of charmers:


> David Norris bragged that he would 'skin a black ****' and 'blow their two arms and legs off', the Old Bailey heard today.
> Norris, now 35, and Gary Dobson, 36, are accused of being part of a racist gang of youths who stabbed 18 year-old Stephen to death in Eltham, south east London, in April 1993...
> 
> One clip on December 14 1994 at 11.03p captured Norris as he said: "If I was going to kill myself do you know what I would do? I would go and kill every black c***, every Paki, every copper, every mug that I know.
> ...


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## The39thStep (Dec 14, 2011)

editor said:


> Thread reopened seeing as it's now being reported in the news.
> 
> Secret filming shown in court shows them to be a right pair of charmers:



This has been around for a while , I am pretty much sure clips of it were used on a TV Programme many years ago and also in a previous court hearing.


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## hammerntongues (Dec 14, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> This has been around for a while , I am pretty much sure clips of it were used on a TV Programme many years ago and also in a previous court hearing.



It has , I can remember seeing the footage a few years ago , one of them was swinging a big sword around bragging of who he was going to chop . scary fuckers .


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## Spymaster (Dec 14, 2011)

hammerntongues said:


> It has , I can remember seeing the footage a few years ago , one of them was swinging a big sword around bragging of who he was going to chop . scary fuckers .



Scary fuckers indeed.

I think these scum are incredibly fortunate not to have been extrajudicially "dealt with" during the intervening years.


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## Gingerman (Dec 14, 2011)

Kinda ironic really,if they had been originally convicted all those years ago they probably would be out by now and woulda disappeared back into a life of well deserved obscurity.Stephen Lawerence would have been just another long forgotten victim.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2011)

Looks like we got a verdict.


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## 5t3IIa (Dec 30, 2011)

And? And!


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2011)

It's either a verdict or off by 4.Just wait.


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## 5t3IIa (Dec 30, 2011)

*LATEST:*

Stephen Lawrence jury sent home for the day, will resume deliberations next Tuesday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 30, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> *LATEST:*
> 
> Stephen Lawrence jury sent home for the day, will resume deliberations next Tuesday
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/


that doesnt sound so good imo.... jury must be split


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## ddraig (Dec 30, 2011)

ffs


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## 5t3IIa (Dec 30, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> that doesnt sound so good imo.... jury must be split



I'm not sure one can surmise that....


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## Spymaster (Dec 30, 2011)

Bollocks.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> that doesnt sound so good imo.... jury must be split


They've had no time between summing up and the 4pm cut off. It does suggest there's disagreement. Just a badly time thing i suspect.


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 30, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> They've had no time between summing up and the 4pm cut off. It does suggest there's disagreement. Just a badly time thing i suspect.


im only hoping the disagreement is whether it was manslaughter or murder.....


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## 5t3IIa (Dec 30, 2011)

The jury don't get to decide that. They were charged with murder, under 'joint enterprise'. The jury can't pick what to find them guilty of - it's a yes or no answer.


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> The jury don't get to decide that. They were charged with murder, under 'joint enterprise'. The jury can't pick what to find them guilty of - it's a yes or no answer.


The jury can find guilty of manslaughter. That's the midway verdict, there but can't prove that you done it. Which is mostly likely IMO


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## Spymaster (Dec 30, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> The jury don't get to decide that. They were charged with murder, under 'joint enterprise'. The jury can't pick what to find them guilty of - it's a yes or no answer.



The judge can allow them the manslaughter option. He hasn't here?


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> The judge can allow them the manslaughter option. He hasn't here?


He has.


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## 5t3IIa (Dec 30, 2011)

Oh, can he? Please excuse me for not knowing what the fuck I'm talking about 

@butchers -- can't quote on work PC


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 30, 2011)

The jury can reach three verdicts: guilty of murder, guilty of manslaughter, or not guilty.

Guardian

tbh: imo, I believe the judge has sown doubt in the juries heads


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## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2011)

There's not going to be a guilty on either of them on this. The evidence is just not there.


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## 5t3IIa (Dec 30, 2011)

This is interesting:



> In a passage marked by the judge as the jury's "route to verdict", he told them that they must first decide if blood and fibres found on clothing belonging to the accused did come from Lawrence, as the crown alleges. If so, can the jury exclude that contamination occurred? The central plank of the crown's case is the forensic evidence.
> 
> The judge told the jury they cannot consider secret video and audio recordings from 1994 of Dobson and Norris – which were shown to the jury during the trial – until they have ruled out contamination.
> 
> The jury were then told they must be sure that Dobson and/or Norris were "present and participating in an unlawful group attack on Stephen Lawrence which resulted in his death". It they are not sure on this point, they must acquit. If they are sure, they go on to decide if the defendants are guilty of murder or manslaughter.



Lots to go through, and in order.


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## Citizen66 (Dec 30, 2011)

They'll get a not guilty then. No way can the jury, hand on heart, say the forensics definitely weren't contaminated. 

Another monumental fuck up by plod.


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## trevhagl (Dec 30, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> They'll get a not guilty then. No way can the jury, hand on heart, say the forensics definitely weren't contaminated.
> 
> Another monumental fuck up by plod.



some may say deliberate?


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## purenarcotic (Dec 30, 2011)

Have to say I agree, I don't think they'll get a guilty.

=/


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## _angel_ (Dec 30, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> They'll get a not guilty then. No way can the jury, hand on heart, say the forensics definitely weren't contaminated.
> 
> Another monumental fuck up by plod.


That's what I'm thinking too.


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## Jon-of-arc (Dec 30, 2011)

Isnt all this chat the sort of stuff that we're not supposed to be saying because of contempt laws or something?

Anyway, it just doesnt sound like the case was proven to me, from what I've read.  All that stuff about the possibility of contamination.


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 30, 2011)

I wonder with all the defendents newly 'anti-racist' beliefs will they donate any of the significant damages they will recieve if found 'innocent' to anti-racist groups...
didnt think so


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## ddraig (Dec 30, 2011)

yeah but you ARE pretty clueless so it don't count for shit
e2a to Jon


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 30, 2011)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Isnt all this chat the sort of stuff that we're not supposed to be saying because of contempt laws or something?
> 
> Anyway, it just doesnt sound like the case was proven to me, from what I've read. All that stuff about the possibility of contamination.


its in the public domain now.... as long as the jury dont read U75  but thats their problem not ours....


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## Jon-of-arc (Dec 30, 2011)

ddraig said:


> yeah but you ARE pretty clueless so it don't count for shit
> e2a to Jon



another non-specific hit & run insult from my growing following of detractors.


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## ddraig (Dec 30, 2011)

you appear to be a stubborn blinkered fool who lashes out at people on here who have the patience (not me) to provide you with all the answers and explanations you demand, yes demand, and when you don't like them act the twat and chuck your toys out


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## 5t3IIa (Dec 30, 2011)

ddraig said:


> you appear to be a stubborn blinkered fool who lashes out at people on here who have the patience (not me) to provide you with all the answers and explanations you demand, yes demand, and when you don't like them act the twat and chuck your toys out



And he shits on toast.


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## Jon-of-arc (Dec 30, 2011)

ddraig said:


> you appear to be a stubborn blinkered fool who lashes out at people on here who have the patience (not me) to provide you with all the answers and explanations you demand, yes demand, and when you don't like them act the twat and chuck your toys out



when someone calls me a "moaning middle class fucker" I dont like it, you mean?  shock fucking horror!


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## Jon-of-arc (Dec 30, 2011)

5t3IIa said:


> And he shits on toast.



when you're right, you're right.


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## 5t3IIa (Dec 30, 2011)

Anyway. Takeaway beef pls. 

The bit I remember hearing about a blood drop was that it's 'structure' was such that it could only have soaked in, it wasn't a flake that had floated over from another evidence bag.


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## William of Walworth (Dec 30, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> The jury can reach three verdicts: guilty of murder, guilty of manslaughter, or not guilty.
> 
> Guardian
> 
> tbh: imo, I believe the judge has sown doubt in the juries heads


 
(I read that Guardian piece in detail too)

Not sure the judge had a lot of legal choice, but I have to say I'm not happy at all with all this being discussed in all this amount of detail on here, before the verdict is reached.

Thread should have been kept locked until verdict time, IMO.


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## Proper Tidy (Dec 30, 2011)

It's all in the public domain. You can get this off the BBC website.


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## Spymaster (Dec 30, 2011)

William of Walworth said:


> Thread should have been kept locked until verdict time, IMO.



Eh? 

Why?


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## 8115 (Dec 30, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Eh?
> 
> Why?



Because isn't it that you're not supposed to discuss things except impartial reporting in the media before the verdict, and I think message boards are public enough to count in some ways as the media.  I've got a few things to say that I wouldn't post up before the verdict.


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## xenon (Dec 30, 2011)

Not read whole thread. But that undercover footage in the flat was shown on TV in the late 90's wasn't it. Perhaps this is partly why the judge has directed the jury not to place weight on that evidence. Regarding the potential of contamination leading to the blood sample, surely they only have to satisfy themselves with regards probabilities. The forensic witness, one of them IIRC, said they couldn't rule out the possibility of contamination. What else would they say in answering that.  

Where's Ocums Razer.


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## William of Walworth (Dec 31, 2011)

Yes, 8115 has it.

It's not that I lack interest myself Spy (and PT) cos I am very interested obs ...

I just think it's always a tad risky to blur the distinction between straight discussion of a case's progress as reported by the BBC/etc, and speculating on the implications of those reports ....

I'm not a lawyer but I have a point I think.


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## ymu (Dec 31, 2011)

Spymaster said:


> Eh?
> 
> Why?


Because inappropriate reportage can fuck up the case before the verdict is in, as it did in the Levi Bellfield abduction case. I'd much rather this thread was closed until the verdicts have been safely delivered, however small the risk.

Plus, they've started prosecuting papers for ignoring the rules now (about bloody time), so it's a potentially very big headache for editor, given how high this site ranks in google.


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## William of Walworth (Dec 31, 2011)

ymu said:


> Because inappropriate reportage can fuck up the case before the verdict is in, as it did in the Levi Bellfield abduction case. I'd much rather this thread was closed until the verdict has been delivered, *however small the risk*.
> 
> Plus, they've started prosecuting papers for ignoring the rules now, so it's a potentially big headache for editor, given how high this site ranks in google.



You seem to know the score better than I do, but I definitely agree. I've bolded what I think is the most relevant bit of yr post  ....

I'm quite surprised the ed reopened this thread further up, to be honest.


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## 8115 (Dec 31, 2011)

Especially given the recent publicity about jurors not being supposed to research cases on the internet.  I don't think this sort of thing is a million miles away from what they have in mind.


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## goldenecitrone (Dec 31, 2011)

If any jurors are looking in, they're guilty, but don't let my opinion influence you in any way. It's just my opinion. They are guilty.


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## Proper Tidy (Dec 31, 2011)

goldenecitrone said:


> If any jurors are looking in, they're guilty, but don't let my opinion influence you in any way. It's just my opinion. They are guilty.



As fuck


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 3, 2012)

...which is what the jury thought too


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## London_Calling (Jan 3, 2012)

> *Gary Dobson and David Norris found guilty of racist murder of Stephen Lawrence*
> 
> New evidence helps convict men of murder 18 years after teenager's fatal stabbing



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/03/stephen-lawrence-verdict-guilty-murder

I don't know what definition of 'contamination' the jury used but I'm not sure it's in the Merriam-Webster.

Hints of OJ.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 3, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16347953


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## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2012)

FUCKING YES!


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## peterkro (Jan 3, 2012)

Good news at last.


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## ddraig (Jan 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> FUCKING YES!


 ^^^^^ THIS THIS THIS


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## craigxcraig (Jan 3, 2012)

Superb news - heres hoping for a long spell in prison.


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## Ponyutd (Jan 3, 2012)

Maybe they'll get chased down a landing and stabbed....see how they like that.


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## peterkro (Jan 3, 2012)

They'll have to do their time in segregation.


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## Badgers (Jan 3, 2012)

Seems fair


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## paolo (Jan 3, 2012)

Does this have implications for Knight and the Acourt brothers, or would that still need new evidence?


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## Kidda (Jan 3, 2012)

His poor family must have gone through hell yet again, i hope they can find some peace now.


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## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> Does this have implications for Knight and the Acourt brothers, or would that still need new evidence?


Evidence would be needed.


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## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> Does this have implications for Knight and the Acourt brothers, or would that still need new evidence?



It would.

At least everyone knows they're murdering cunts though.


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## story (Jan 3, 2012)

They'll appeal though, won't they?


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## temper_tantrum (Jan 3, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> Does this have implications for Knight and the Acourt brothers, or would that still need new evidence?



Scotland Yard have just said the case isn't closed and they are hoping the convictions will bring forward further evidence. So sounds as though they're still going to try and get them too.


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## London_Calling (Jan 3, 2012)

Of course.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 3, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Scotland Yard have just said the case isn't closed and they are hoping the convictions will bring forward further evidence. So sounds as though they're still going to try and get them too.


 
  *hopes*


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## RoyReed (Jan 3, 2012)

So there is some fucking justice in this world after all!


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## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2012)

I wonder if they'll open up about the help they're _alleged_ to have received from certain quarters?


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## skyscraper101 (Jan 3, 2012)

In not completely unrelated news, tram woman is also set to face trial soon

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16394046


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## temper_tantrum (Jan 3, 2012)

The Guardian have got an interesting story up about the new forensics, and the mega media injunction:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/03/stephen-lawrence-breakthrough-met-police


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## Lock&Light (Jan 3, 2012)

Is it possible that Dobson and/or Norris, having stayed quiet till now in the hope/expectation of a 'not guilty' verdict, could now start squeaking about their associates in the hope of gaining leniency?


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## ddraig (Jan 3, 2012)

let's hope so
no honour among racist scumbag murderers


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 3, 2012)

The mitigation hearings are going on right now, and it looks as if a statement issued by one of the lawyers is more or less admitting they were present at the crime.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2012)

skyscraper101 said:


> In not completely unrelated news, tram woman is also set to face trial soon
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16394046


 
crown court trial requested. Should be a fairly mental trial


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## temper_tantrum (Jan 3, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Is it possible that Dobson and/or Norris, having stayed quiet till now in the hope/expectation of a 'not guilty' verdict, could now start squeaking about their associates in the hope of gaining leniency?



Dobson's lawyer has just said in mitigation that his client was not the ringleader. This after his client was taken back to the cells (edit: after the verdict) protesting his innocence.

They've both been banged up for the past year and more, btw - I didn't know that.

Norris's lawyer says in mitigation that his client received a serious beating in Belmarsh.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 3, 2012)

> Gary Dobson's mother, who told the trial her son had been at home during the attack, wept in the public gallery of Court 16.



Will she now get done for perjury?


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## story (Jan 3, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Norris's lawyer says in mitigation that his client received a serious beating in Belmarsh.



How does that mitigate his crime, ffs.


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## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Norris's lawyer says in mitigation that his client received a serious beating in Belmarsh.



A busted nose and four broken ribs apparently.

What a shame.


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## ddraig (Jan 3, 2012)

story said:


> How does that mitigate his crime, ffs.


give him another few years for the fucking cheek!


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## temper_tantrum (Jan 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> A busted nose and four broken ribs apparently.
> 
> What a shame.



And the teef. Don't forget the teef he apparently lost.

Edit: Let's hope that the odious Rod Liddle now receives the measure of public opprobrium which is his due. The cunt.


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## ElizabethofYork (Jan 3, 2012)

The forensic evidence seems very weak.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2012)

well, the jury was convinced


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## yardbird (Jan 3, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Will she now get done for perjury?


I was wondering if _both_ mothers could be done for perjury ?


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## Lock&Light (Jan 3, 2012)

ElizabethofYork said:


> The forensic evidence seems very weak.



But it was the drop that made the pail pour over.


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## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> well, the jury was convinced


Were you? Or was anyone here convinced by the forensic evidence? The only bit that rang true for me was the blood stain (minute) that was found on Dobson's jacket lining and had to have been liquid when it came into contact with the garment.


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## Lock&Light (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Were you? Or was anyone here convinced by the forensic evidence? The only bit that rang true for me was the blood stain (minute) that was found on Dobson's jacket lining and had to have been liquid when it came into contact with the garment.



That seems like enough, to me.


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## bignose1 (Jan 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> FUCKING YES!


There were fucking tears in our office just now and were having a few beers after 4. Having met and talked with both of Stephen's parents over the years I know how much this will mean to them.
As for the Acourts and Knight.....maybe your next.


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## bignose1 (Jan 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> A busted nose and four broken ribs apparently.
> 
> What a shame.


Watch out for the soap trick


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## London_Calling (Jan 3, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> well, the jury was convinced


Of their guilt, no question.

Based on that evidence, well....

You'd have trouble finding a jury in London that wasn't at least a little 'unsympathetic' to these two.


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## dtb (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Were you? Or was anyone here convinced by the forensic evidence? The only bit that rang true for me was the blood stain (minute) that was found on Dobson's jacket lining and had to have been liquid when it came into contact with the garment.



i have similar feelings about the evidence, does seem like they've got a good case for appeal


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## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> There were fucking tears in our office just now and were having a few beers after 4.



Yeah, a few of us are going over the pub to raise a glass shortly.

Worrying about the appeal now.


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## ymu (Jan 3, 2012)

Fucking excellent news.

The point about the forensics is precisely the blood spot that had to have been liquid when it contacted the jacket - a point the defence did not dispute. OJ got off because a similar thing was proven - but that's because the police tried to fit him up (by, for eg, pouring some of his blood sample onto one of his socks). The wet blood in this case proves that Dobson was present when Stephen was killed. It's not possible to dismiss all of the forensics as contamination, which makes it less likely that the other forensics were due to contamination.

I can't see an appeal being likely when they have just admitted being at the scene but not ringleaders, according to their lawyers statement. For a lesser charge, maybe, but they won't directly overturn this verdict on forensic grounds.


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## temper_tantrum (Jan 3, 2012)

Full judgement on decision to quash Dobson's aquittal has now been released:
http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/r-v-dobson-judgment-18052011.pdf

(relates to the revoked double-jeopardy law; he has been tried 2ce).

Edit: 'No application to quash the acquittals of Neil Acourt and Luke Knight is before the court' (YET).


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## DotCommunist (Jan 3, 2012)

knowing SFA about forensics, I was assuming something about the process was told to the jury that convinced them.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 3, 2012)

As said earlier, Dobson, in mitigation has intimated that he was there, but wasn't the prime mover, so I think it's probably just a matter of time before the others are up for trial too. I'm not worried about an appeal.


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## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2012)

ymu said:


> I can't see an appeal being likely when they have just admitted being at the scene but not ringleaders, according to their lawyers statement ....



Wonder if they'll grass Acourt and Knight now.


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## London_Calling (Jan 3, 2012)

Do you really? I don't.

RE: an appeal:


> Tellingly, they did not produce a single expert to testify in support of their claims that contamination had somehow produced the evidence against them.


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## KeeperofDragons (Jan 3, 2012)

It's taken long enough but it is justice of a sorts as some of Stephen's attackers have still not been brought to trial


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## ymu (Jan 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Wonder if they'll grass Acourt and Knight now.


Looks like they might. Dobson, at least, seems to have cracked already. Seems most likely that these two really were more on the periphery too, if they didn't bother getting rid of the clothes they were wearing, as the Acourts certainly did and Knight probably did too.

Let's hope they really go for it in their mitigation hearing.


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## ddraig (Jan 3, 2012)

and still confident racist scum in Eltham


​
*@jonsnowC4*Jon Snow​
Our crew filming point where Stephen Lawyrence died had racial abuse shouted at them from a passing white van:locals say it is commonplace​
4 minutes ago via web​


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## temper_tantrum (Jan 3, 2012)

ymu said:


> Let's hope they really go for it in their mitigation hearing.



They've had it, haven't they? Court's finished for the day. Sentencing 11.30am tomorrow.


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## teqniq (Jan 3, 2012)

Result!


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## Streathamite (Jan 3, 2012)

At long last - justice.


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## colacubes (Jan 3, 2012)

ddraig said:


> and still confident racist scum in Eltham
> 
> 
> 
> ...



On Radio 5 they were saying that one of their crews went into a local pub to ask people about the verdict and were told by the locals that it wasn't the sort of pub they should be asking questions about it in.


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## BlackArab (Jan 3, 2012)

A day I thought I'd never see come. I came close to being in a similair situation myself around the same time except we turned on the bullying cunts rather than running. I really hope every black prisoner in the system has been following this case.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 3, 2012)

ymu said:


> I can't see an appeal being likely when they have just admitted being at the scene but not ringleaders, according to their lawyers statement. For a lesser charge, maybe, but they won't directly overturn this verdict on forensic grounds.



Can't be a lesser charge, they have both been convicted of murder. They can only be sentenced to life. What their briefs have been quibbling about since the verdict is mitigation to be reflected in the minimum recommendation they each receive as to how long they must serve before they can be _considered_ for parole. An agreement to grass at this, or a later stage would be reflected in the min. rec.

What I do not know, will the min. rec. be set at today's rates, or as if they'd been sentenced at the time of the attack? Back in the mid 90's the min. recs. were a fair bit less that they are today.


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## yardbird (Jan 3, 2012)

nipsla said:


> On Radio 5 they were saying that one of their crews went into a local pub to ask people about the verdict and were told by the locals that it wasn't the sort of pub they should be asking questions about it in.


I  was taken aback when I heard this, but then thought about it


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## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

BlackArab said:


> A day I thought I'd never see come. I came close to being in a similair situation myself around the same time except we turned on the bullying cunts rather than running. I really hope every black prisoner in the system has been following this case.


Similar situations have happened quite a lot. Terry May for instance.


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## bmd (Jan 3, 2012)

So pleased about this verdict, justice for the Lawrence family at last.


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## Stoat Boy (Jan 3, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I was taken aback when I heard this, but then thought about it


 
The problem is that the South London rumour mill has been alive with all sorts of rumours. Throw in a jury selection process that leaves a lot to be desired (nobody living in Eltham or the surrounding boroughs was allowed to be selected) and there will be a local sense of injustice, that somehow the whole case was rigged against them from the beginning and people living in the area have been vilified ever since the murder, rather un-justly I feel.

I have no doubts that these boys were guilty (although I have my doubts about how the second trial was bought around) but the whole manner of it has been diversive on many levels and there will be a perception amongsts sections of the white working class community that essentially the system will go to all sorts of lengths to secure a conviction if a racial attack is carried out by whites against non-whites but not the other way. Now you can argue against this but that does not alter what people will feel.

Personally I think they were the sort of arseholes who just got a kick out of hurting anybody who was different to them be in skin colour, hair style or even football team but that the vilification of an entire section of the areas population that occured was totally out of order.

Still the Establishment got the result it wanted along with a change in the law that could back fire in years to come against people for whom a lot of you probably have more sympathy.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 3, 2012)

oh fuck, I agree with Peter Bottomley now...



> if more people could bring up their children like Doreen and Neville Lawrence brought up theirs and fewer people can be brought up like some of the attackers it would be a far better society


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Terry May for instance.


Who? Google tells me nothing about what you are alluding to here.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

nipsla said:


> On Radio 5 they were saying that one of their crews went into a local pub to ask people about the verdict and were told by the locals that it wasn't the sort of pub they should be asking questions about it in.


 
Can anybody here really be shocked by this and similar?


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 3, 2012)

Who's shocked.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Who? Google tells me nothing about what you are alluding to here.


Terry May was a young lad who I knew in Thornton Heath who was stabbed to death in 1981 by a mob of black kids for no reason whatsoever. He had a disability so could not run. The main knife wielding killer went to my school (fuck you Gardiner).

The police did a shit job by trying to fit up the culprits and they all got acquitted at the Old Bailey as a result. If the plod had left their racism out of it convictions would have followed. I had to endure school with the main killer for another year and put up with the rest swaggering around the area for years.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 3, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> There's not going to be a guilty on either of them on this. The evidence is just not there.



hehe heh heh heh heh heh
thought you were always RIGHT!!!???????


----------



## BlackArab (Jan 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Who? Google tells me nothing about what you are alluding to here.



nor me


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Terry May was a young lad who I knew in Thornton Heath who was stabbed to death in 1981 by a mob of black kids for no reason whatsoever. He had a disability so could not run. The main knife wielding killer went to my school (fuck you Gardiner).
> 
> The police did a shit job by trying to fit up the culprits and they all got acquitted at the Old Bailey as a result. If the plod had left their racism out of it convictions would have followed. I had to endure school with the main killer for another year and put up with the rest swaggering around the area for years.


----------



## peterkro (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Terry May was a young lad who I knew in Thornton Heath who was stabbed to death in 1981 by a mob of black kids for no reason whatsoever. He had a disability so could not run. The main knife wielding killer went to my school (fuck you Gardiner).
> 
> The police did a shit job by trying to fit up the culprits and they all got acquitted at the Old Bailey as a result. If the plod had left their racism out of it convictions would have followed. I had to endure school with the main killer for another year and put up with the rest swaggering around the area for years.



Daily Mail, 27 Feb. 1982. At this time the press were also covering the Terry
May trial. Seven black youths were accused of murdering a crippled white
youth, Terry May, during what the Daily Mail described as 'a revenge hunt for
skinheads who had attacked black youths at Thornton Heath, South London'.
The newspapers graphically described witnesses' accounts of black youths
'swarming' over the dead boy's body. Comparison between this coverage and
the coverage given to attacks by white youths on black people is illuminating.

From Socialistregister.com (pdf) is the only reference I can find for the case,note I'm not commenting I know very little about the case.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> .... the vilification of an entire section of the areas population that occured was totally out of order.



Which sections?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

peterkro said:


> Daily Mail, 27 Feb. 1982. At this time the press were also covering the Terry
> May trial. Seven black youths were accused of murdering a crippled white
> youth, Terry May, during what the Daily Mail described as 'a revenge hunt for
> skinheads who had attacked black youths at Thornton Heath, South London'.
> ...


Hardly anyone remembers him. Mainly a bunch of shit stirring fascists who helped poison and polarise the area in the first place.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> hehe heh heh heh heh heh
> thought you were always RIGHT!!!???????


That's the important bit here trev. Well done.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> Who's shocked.


 
I was just referring to remarks about 'confident racists' and the like, as if surprised. The country's full of confident racists.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 3, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> I was just referring to remarks about 'confident racists' and the like, as if surprised. The country's full of confident racists.



A typical liberal, do you see racists everywhere?


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> A typical liberal, do you see racists everywhere?



No, but I hear casual racist sentiment expressed almost every day. Don't you?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 3, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> No, but I hear casual racist sentiment expressed almost every day. Don't you?



Not every day but quite often, I was only joking I agree with you - anyone who thought any of the comments on that video were shocking has obviously lived a very sheltered life.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 3, 2012)

Bloody Hell. Paul Dacre's pronouncement on the case has made me want to vomit. Apparently it's all down to him


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 3, 2012)

Still - good verdict though


----------



## paolo (Jan 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> As said earlier, Dobson, in mitigation has intimated that he was there, but wasn't the prime mover



Certainly looks possible that Dobson will go down that route. If he solely says it was Norris, I can't imagine that actually helping him at all - still joint enterprise and he wouldn't be giving anything new. So the only hope for bargaining is to bring a new name, be prepared to give evidence, and for it to be good enough evidence for a reasonable chance of a further conviction.

[my speculation: I don't actually know how these work]

Gonna be an interesting to see if/how this develops.


----------



## paolo (Jan 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Bloody Hell. Paul Dacre's pronouncement on the case has made me want to vomit. Apparently it's all down to him



Was gonna say earlier the Mail was inevitably going to go to town on having run *that* headline.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 3, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Scotland Yard have just said the case isn't closed and they are hoping the convictions will bring forward further evidence. So sounds as though they're still going to try and get them too.



I think you are right.However I am a bit confused about posters ( not you) supporting the Police in this case whilst on the other thread about hating the Police expressing completely different views.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

lawrence suspects and emma west on 1 day! shirtfront's gonna be smoking hot today!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> some may say deliberate?



I wouldn't rule it out. Norris's dad had a lot of "acquaintances" among the coppers on the early investigations.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 3, 2012)

nipsla said:


> On Radio 5 they were saying that one of their crews went into a local pub to ask people about the verdict and were told by the locals that it wasn't the sort of pub they should be asking questions about it in.


meaning most of the pubs round there,
weird oasis of hate it was when i lived and worked around there
and they seem proud of their saaarf lundon/kent border asshole attitude


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Scotland Yard have just said the case isn't closed and they are hoping the convictions will bring forward further evidence. So sounds as though they're still going to try and get them too.



This might be why Norris and Dobson were tried first - get Norris in chokey, and his family's "associates" worrying about geting him out, and not looking out for Knight or the Acourt brothers.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I wonder if they'll open up about the help they're _alleged_ to have received from certain quarters?



Be lovely if a few more of those shitcunts from our local "regional serious crime squad" ended up doing time, whether under Rule 43 or not.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 3, 2012)

That's the second time somebody has mentioned Emma west, as if there is any equivalence.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Is it possible that Dobson and/or Norris, having stayed quiet till now in the hope/expectation of a 'not guilty' verdict, could now start squeaking about their associates in the hope of gaining leniency?



We can omly hope.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> And the teef. Don't forget the teef he apparently lost.
> 
> Edit: Let's hope that the odious Rod Liddle now receives the measure of public opprobrium which is his due. The cunt.



He could always stand as Norris's surrogate and take the kickings for him.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2012)

ddraig said:


> meaning most of the pubs round there,
> weird oasis of hate it was when i lived and worked around there
> and they seem proud of their saaarf lundon/kent border asshole attitude



Absolutely. Eltham's a properly nasty shit hole which is why I was after Stoat Boy to explain this:



> _the vilification of an entire section of the areas population that occured was totally out of order._



Most folk who've spent any time in the area, particularly if they're black, will have no problem whatsoever with vilifying this particular section of society.

It's a nasty, scary place.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> That's the second time somebody has mentioned Emma west, as if there is any equivalence.



its to do with the seige mentality so beloved of fascist websites/organisations. they can inflate the victom balloons!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

west and lawrence top 2 topics on both VNN and stormfront. it is they who equate them as part of some daft conspiracy.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> its to do with the seige mentality so beloved of fascist websites/organisations. they can inflate the victom balloons!



It's not just them though is it, it's also 'lefts' trying to demonstrate some sort of narrative between the two in their slightly deranged pursuit of justice against a troubled woman who mouthed off on a tram (but didn't kill anybody).

But anyway.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> west and lawrence top 2 topics on both VNN and stormfront...



I can't find the thread on stormfront. Which forum's it in?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

stormfront britain then 'Dobson & Norris' thread - if you must! im starting to look like a nazi pimp ere!


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 3, 2012)

Am I the only one that has problems with condeming whole geoghracical areas as


Spymaster said:


> Absolutely. Eltham's a properly nasty shit hole which is why I was after Stoat Boy to explain this:
> 
> Most folk who've spent any time in the area, particularly if they're black, will have no problem whatsoever with vilifying this particular section of society.
> 
> It's a nasty, scary place.



Comments reminds me of some interesting research that looked at racism in south east London:



> It was the last film, Routes of Racism, which provided the most direct spring­board for the debate. Set in Greenwich in South East London, Roger Hewitt’s film, based on his study of the same name, explored the effects of anti-racist policies on people living in a borough, which has seen three racist murders in recent years. Young white working class people, and local youth workers, questioned the traditional, liberal approach to anti-racism. Many interviewed for the film, argued that anti-racism promoted double standards. It was argued that this clumsy application of anti-racist practice created a perception among some, that Black and Asian people are favoured over Whites. The film highlighted how, in this context, young people increasingly expressed their anger and frustration through racism and racist
> attacks. The second half of this thought provoking film gave a voice to the victims of race attacks who talked movingly about their experience, fear and anger at being terrorised by local race attackers.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 3, 2012)

ddraig said:


> meaning most of the pubs round there,
> weird oasis of hate it was when i lived and worked around there
> and they seem proud of their saaarf lundon/kent border asshole attitude


I lived in LB greenwich whilst studying at Thames Poly (as it then was)in t'80s, and I think you are absolutely spot on here. I'd never before come across  such violently-expressed racial hatred as when I first went into an Eltham pub - truly shocking


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> The problem is that the South London rumour mill has been alive with all sorts of rumours. Throw in a jury selection process that leaves a lot to be desired (nobody living in Eltham or the surrounding boroughs was allowed to be selected) and there will be a local sense of injustice, that somehow the whole case was rigged against them from the beginning and people living in the area have been vilified ever since the murder, rather un-justly I feel.



One thing I've repeatedly noticed in that part od south London is how *conspicuously* people would be publicly supportive of Lawrence's alleged killers.
I'd wager that at least part of any "local sense of injustice" will be similarly conspicuous - i.e. to avoid a kicking or a lamping.



> I have no doubts that these boys were guilty (although I have my doubts about how the second trial was bought around) but the whole manner of it has been diversive on many levels and there will be a perception amongsts sections of the white working class community that essentially the system will go to all sorts of lengths to secure a conviction if a racial attack is carried out by whites against non-whites but not the other way. Now you can argue against this but that does not alter what people will feel.



Logic is irrelevant to people making their decisions from emotional viewpoints. If you believe you're part of a persecuted class, then all else will follow from that belief.



> Personally I think they were the sort of arseholes who just got a kick out of hurting anybody who was different to them be in skin colour, hair style or even football team but that the vilification of an entire section of the areas population that occured was totally out of order.
> 
> Still the Establishment got the result it wanted along with a change in the law that could back fire in years to come against people for whom a lot of you probably have more sympathy.



I don't see that an "entire section of the area's population" was vilified. It's beeen perfectly clear to anyone living in or near, or knowing someone living in or near Eltham any time in the last 40 years that it's had more than a little racial tension going on. Most places have got past that, but Eltham is *still* all this time on, the place where you have to worry about your skin colour, or even about the political views you express. Eltham may not be a haven for racists, but for whatever reasons, some members have continued to tolerate what has become intolerable elsewhere.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 3, 2012)

e2a to 39th step
have u got a link to go with that?
i agree with Spy, i felt the tension and danger being there and travelling through and i am white
i also worked with people from the area and even when i moved away had to go back for work sometimes and it didn't seem to have changed.
stoat boy is an apologist and what is your answer to what you have quoted above? racism=racism=racism
and guilt=guilt
also bang on VP and Streathamite


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jan 3, 2012)

Streathamite said:


> I lived in LB greenwich whilst studying at Thames Poly (as it then was)in t'80s, and I think you are absolutely spot on here. I'd never before come across such violently-expressed racial hatred as when I first went into an Eltham pub - truly shocking



So well over 20 years ago then ? South East London, like most other places in the country was no doubt a lot more racist. But times have moved on enormously and to just write off an entire area based on this crime is just beyond belief but not surprising given the hysteria that is exhibited by many on the left when it comes to anything to do with racism.


----------



## Voley (Jan 3, 2012)

Streathamite said:


> I lived in LB greenwich whilst studying at Thames Poly (as it then was)in t'80s, and I think you are absolutely spot on here. I'd never before come across such violently-expressed racial hatred as when I first went into an Eltham pub - truly shocking


I was a student there when Lawrence was killed. The Abbey Arms just down the road from where I lived was a fucking shithole like you describe above. I wasn't surprised to see it get a mention in the Beating The Fascists book.

I'm really glad these two have been sent down today. It's shameful that its taken 18 years.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 3, 2012)

Are the responses down to hardened racist attitudes though? Seems more likely that it's a community siege mentality. In which case surely just dismissing the whole place as a vile shitpit of bigots will just entrench attitudes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Which sections?



I've no doubt Stoatie's inplication is that the entire white working class community of Eltham was vilified, which is pretty much far from the case. I'm totally open about my belief that parts of the white working class community have tolerated overt racism beyond what's acceptable in most other communities, but that hardly makes every fucker who lives there a racist (and therefore worthy of vilification).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> Are the responses down to hardened racist attitudes though? Seems more likely that it's a community siege mentality. In which case surely just dismissing the whole place as a vile shitpit of bigots will just entrench attitudes.



The fairly static demography of the place probably hasn't helped.


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 3, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16400148

BBC footage first broadcast in 1993.





> A BBC Newsnight report broadcast two weeks after the murder of Stephen Lawrence showed the level of anger among the black community in Eltham, south-east London following the murder.
> 
> 
> The BBC's Mark Easton spoke to Stephen's parents Doreen and Neville and to some of the police officers involved in the murder investigation.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 3, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> So well over 20 years ago then ? South East London, like most other places in the country was no doubt a lot more racist. But times have moved on enormously and to just write off an entire area based on this crime is just beyond belief but not surprising given the hysteria that is exhibited by many on the left when it comes to anything to do with racism.


a young man was fucking murdered, this is not hysteria you apologist cunt
oh and look, you've moved the goalposts already, no one has written off the whole area
seriously, you might want to join the threads on stormfront instead if that is your logic


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> west and lawrence top 2 topics on both VNN and stormfront. it is they who equate them as part of some daft conspiracy.



"you can't even be rude to coons or murder niggers in yer own country anymore!! What's the world coming to!".


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 3, 2012)

Two going to prison for the racist murder of a black man, a prison likely to have a disproportionate number of young black men. Looks like they'll spend their days on the fraggle wing...


----------



## ddraig (Jan 3, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> Are the responses down to hardened racist attitudes though? Seems more likely that it's a community siege mentality. In which case surely just dismissing the whole place as a vile shitpit of bigots will just entrench attitudes.


wtf are you on about? under siege from who and when?
there were hardened racist attitudes and yes there are racists everywhere

the difference was (and for quite a while) that it was openly expressed with a knowing grin and sparkle in their eye.
it being south london there were many different nationalities and cultures there but in and around eltham they didn't like it and vocalised it loudly and often, in pubs, on buses, on the street and in work.

i asked one who came out with something once that if they or people they knew who felt like that thought they were fighting a war then couldn't they see by looking around them that they'd lost already
and they really didn't get it


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jan 3, 2012)

ddraig said:


> a young man was fucking murdered, this is not hysteria you apologist cunt
> oh and look, you've moved the goalposts already, no one has written off the whole area
> seriously, you might want to join the threads on stormfront instead if that is your logic



Yep. A young man was murdered. As happened on Oxford Street on Boxing day. And as happens on far to many occassions through out the year. Do we see memorials to those young men ? Did we see charities set up in their name ? No. Not at all. Still they aint classed as 'racist' are they ? I dont see many lefties wetting thier collective knickers over those murders.

What happened to Stephen Laurence was fucking horrible. And it was shocking that the OB took so long to get a conviction. But young men murder other young men on far to frequent a basis and in particular young black men killing young black men. But they aint so much 'fun' to campaign about is it ?


----------



## ddraig (Jan 3, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> Yep. A young man was murdered. As happened on Oxford Street on Boxing day. And as happens on far to many occassions through out the year. Do we see memorials to those young men ? Did we see charities set up in their name ? No. Not at all. Still they aint classed as 'racist' are they ? I dont see many lefties wetting thier collective knickers over those murders.
> 
> What happened to Stephen Laurence was fucking horrible. And it was shocking that the OB took so long to get a conviction. But young men murder other young men on far to frequent a basis and in particular young black men killing young black men. But they aint so much 'fun' to campaign about is it ?


so that makes it all ok then
just another murder
i guess you think it is a shame that it wasn't another black boy wot done it and it was never in the the news?
you make me sick


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jan 3, 2012)

ddraig said:


> so that makes it all ok then
> just another murder
> i guess you think it is a shame that it wasn't another black boy wot done it and it was never in the the news?
> you make me sick



Tedious. Really tedious. And just beneath contempt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> So well over 20 years ago then ? South East London, like most other places in the country was no doubt a lot more racist. But times have moved on enormously and to just write off an entire area based on this crime is just beyond belief but not surprising given the hysteria that is exhibited by many on the left when it comes to anything to do with racism.



Eltham's post-war demography has changed a lot more slowly than other parts of south-east London, partly because of the nature of the housing, and partly because the post-war *reputation* of Eltham has meant that it hasn't seen quite the same degree of "gentrification" as other s/e London neighbourhoods. This has probably militated toward attitudes being somewhat "backward" (if you've no impetus to change attitudes, then why would you?) by the standards of somewhere like Lewisham. No-one, however, has written Eltham off. That's just a fantasy you've concocted in order to make your specious point.

Want to know why some people get exercised by racism? How about watching your mate get held down and his elbow stamped on for the sin of being a "Paki" (he's Mauritian)? What about seeing another triumvirate of mates get slapped around at least once a week for several years for the sin of being "jungle bunnies"? How about getting punched repeatedly in the face for "hanging about with nignogs"?
Been there, experienced that.
That was coppers doing the stamping, slapping and punching, by the way. If I catalogued non-police racism I've encountered (usually not in the areas I've lived in), I'd probably use up the boards' entire bandwidth, and I'm only a white bloke who's experienced this, not one of the people who've borne the brunt of racism. There's no excuse for it. No-Fucking-Excuse-Whatsoever.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 3, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> Tedious. Really tedious. And just beneath contempt.



Let's be honest - you've got precisely the reaction you were hoping for. If tedium's what you're after I'd suggest a look in the mirror.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 3, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> Tedious. Really tedious. And just beneath contempt.


yes you are
and an apologist, for shame


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Two going to prison for the racist murder of a black man, a prison likely to have a disproportionate number of young black men. Looks like they'll spend their days on the fraggle wing...


Only if they go potty.
Otherwise, they'll be in with the nonces, perverts and policemen who're on Rule 43. That's good in a way, because nonces, perverts and coppers should *occasionally* have someone *they* can look down on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> Tedious. Really tedious. And just beneath contempt.



Your own "contribution" (much akin to the contribution a diarrheic dog leaves) was an attack on a group of people for attacking a group of people.
The problem being that it was a fantasy, and no such thing had actually happened.

You really shouldn't use phrases like "beneath contempt" when they're more aptly deployed at you than by you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

ddraig said:


> yes you are
> and an apologist, for shame



He doesn't know what the word means (shame, that is).


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 3, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> And the teef. Don't forget the teef he apparently lost.
> 
> *Edit: Let's hope that the odious Rod Liddle now receives the measure of public opprobrium which is his due. The cunt*.


 
Can what he wrote be publicly reported/discussed (or linked to) now?

Or is that sub judice in terms of Liddle's own possible prosecution?

I'm a tad underinformed here ... sorry.

(PS Just to be clear, I've long thought RL to be a scumbag myself).


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> Can what he wrote be publicly reported/discussed (or linked to) now?



If not could you PM me please?

Haven't heard about this.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 3, 2012)

ddraig said:


> wtf are you on about? under siege from who and when?
> there were hardened racist attitudes and yes there are racists everywhere
> 
> the difference was (and for quite a while) that it was openly expressed with a knowing grin and sparkle in their eye.
> ...



I don't know Eltham at all. I could be entirely wrong. Maybe it is something in the water round there. I do know we had riots that were attributed to race here, and that it became very fashionable to dismiss the whole estate, or even the whole town, as some white working class shithole where anybody looking a bit different wasn't welcome. Which, inevitably, caused attitudes to harden amongst some.

I'd suggest the vilification QP/Wrexham received in the wake of the riots was nothing compared to Eltham in the wake of Lawrence's murder. I'd suggest negative media reports condemning a whole community and everybody who lives there as backwards bigots often has the effect of creating a siege mentality in which frequently the negative traits attributed to them are embraced, at least by some.

But I don't know. It just seems a bit daft to dismiss the whole place as seemingly  populated only by irredeemable racists.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> Yep. A young man was murdered. As happened on Oxford Street on Boxing day. And as happens on far to many occassions through out the year. Do we see memorials to those young men ? Did we see charities set up in their name ? No. Not at all. Still they aint classed as 'racist' are they ? I dont see many lefties wetting thier collective knickers over those murders.
> 
> What happened to Stephen Laurence was fucking horrible. And it was shocking that the OB took so long to get a conviction. But young men murder other young men on far to frequent a basis and in particular young black men killing young black men. But they aint so much 'fun' to campaign about is it ?



Do you not think-though I sometimes wonder if you do-that the utterly rotten nature of the original police 'investigation, the police assumption that Lawrence and DuWayne Brooks were not victims, that evidence was lost, the links between the police and Norris dad, in short the complete failure of the police to investigate this case and that the investigation was "marred by a combination of professional incompetence, institutional racism and a failure of leadership by senior officers" makes it a little different from the far too many other murders in this country or are they ALL the same?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 3, 2012)

Some very dubious comments under this very good article. Why the torygraph ran it is a mystery, they continue to provide succor for racists.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100126
940/your-arrogant-racism-is-part-of-londons-past-an-open-letter-to-stephen-lawrences-killers/#disqus_thread


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 3, 2012)

Just got in, so I'll keep it brief:

1.  About fucking time.
2.  It was very moving/saddening to hear Doreen Lawrence's reaction to this verdict.
3.  Hopefully, one day, the rest of the killers will be caught and dragged into court.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Some very dubious comments under this very good article. Why the torygraph ran it is a mystery, they continue to provide succor for racists.
> 
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100126
> 940/your-arrogant-racism-is-part-of-londons-past-an-open-letter-to-stephen-lawrences-killers/#disqus_thread



That's an excellent piece.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 3, 2012)

I am glad for the Lawrence family that today, and a partial form of justice, has finally happened. Seems invidious to say more really.


----------



## elbows (Jan 3, 2012)

Good news.

In some ways I was surprised by the verdict but I probably should have figured that it was a likely outcome if Id thought about it harder, as the last thing anybody needed was for the farce to continue, and even small forensic evidence tends to count for quite a lot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2012)

i thought they were going to walk, so it's a much better result than i expected


----------



## elbows (Jan 3, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> I don't know Eltham at all. I could be entirely wrong. Maybe it is something in the water round there. I do know we had riots that were attributed to race here, and that it became very fashionable to dismiss the whole estate, or even the whole town, as some white working class shithole where anybody looking a bit different wasn't welcome. Which, inevitably, caused attitudes to harden amongst some.
> 
> I'd suggest the vilification QP/Wrexham received in the wake of the riots was nothing compared to Eltham in the wake of Lawrence's murder. I'd suggest negative media reports condemning a whole community and everybody who lives there as backwards bigots often has the effect of creating a siege mentality in which frequently the negative traits attributed to them are embraced, at least by some.
> 
> But I don't know. It just seems a bit daft to dismiss the whole place as seemingly populated only by irredeemable racists.



Well I come from a midlands town which has a fair range of unattractive qualities about it. I was born here, live here and there are some people I like here. But I don't really have a problem with focus being drawn towards the negative aspects of the place. Not all of the criticism is always fair, and such things can be used to write off already-marginalised people, but a lot of the problems linger horribly and deserve to be talked about and confronted. Its ok to generalise to make a worthwhile point, so long as the generalisations are gotten away from if the subject is then discussed in more detail or from a different angle. Some places are at risk of getting a bit too much flack if they lack more positive things that are also associated with them, and then the horrible ugly side dominates their entire rep.

At the end of the day most of us are painfully aware of the nature of cycles of broken people coping in unpleasant ways with their lot, and the way the pain gets passed around in a cruel and often rather random way. A way that seldom has resemblance of a just connection between todays perpetrator and the forces that originally planted such ugly seeds in the area. The long-term crimes of economic exploitation combined with unpleasant reactions to change, festering and bubbling away, sporadically bursting out to claim another victim. I don't know Eltham so I can't say how much such factors were at work there, but most of the ugly underbellies I've seen have quite a history. Anyway such concepts are not powerful enough to utterly eliminate the simple desire to 'hate a load of horrific gits who are well worth hating', and Im not suggesting it should be as I too like to see shits face the consequences of their actions, but when talking about an entire place I really need to look at the history and other sorts of victims past. Who made the monsters?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

Stoat Boy said:


> Yep. A young man was murdered. As happened on Oxford Street on Boxing day. And as happens on far to many occassions through out the year. Do we see memorials to those young men ? Did we see charities set up in their name ? No. Not at all. Still they aint classed as 'racist' are they ? I dont see many lefties wetting thier collective knickers over those murders.



I've always thought that one thing the left and the right have agreed about is that all murder is vile.

Still, you appear to view things differently, and believe that "lefties" (whatever the fuck that means) have some sort of index of vileness based on whether a murder is racist or not.

What a sad, twisted piece of shit you are.



> What happened to Stephen Laurence was fucking horrible. And it was shocking that the OB took so long to get a conviction. But young men murder other young men on far to frequent a basis and in particular young black men killing young black men. But they aint so much 'fun' to campaign about is it ?



Interesting use of "aint" (it has an apostrophe in, by the way) in an attempt to project your "working classness".

Your problem is that you've got no fucking class whatsoever.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> No, but I hear casual racist sentiment expressed almost every day. Don't you?


No.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Do you not think-though I sometimes wonder if you do-that the utterly rotten nature of the original police 'investigation, the police assumption that Lawrence and DuWayne Brooks were not victims, that evidence was lost, the links between the police and Norris dad, in short the complete failure of the police to investigate this case and that the investigation was "marred by a combination of professional incompetence, institutional racism and a failure of leadership by senior officers" makes it a little different from the far too many other murders in this country or are they ALL the same?



Fed, don't you realise that what *actually* matters is whether a murder becomes a _cause celebre_ for "lefties"? None of that other nonsense has any relevance!


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> No.


 
Oh.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Absolutely. Eltham's a properly nasty shit hole which is why I was after Stoat Boy to explain this:
> 
> Most folk who've spent any time in the area, particularly if they're black, will have no problem whatsoever with vilifying this particular section of society.
> 
> It's a nasty, scary place.


Fuck off labelling a huge place and it's people as cunts. Just fuck off.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 3, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Oh.


Me neither. If they're from people you know, change your social circle. I'm not saying I never hear anything racist, but it's rare compared to when I was a child, or indeed my younger years generally. I think the last person I heard being a racist twat was David Starkey, and at the other end of of the braincell spectrum, that tram woman, so basically, on youtube, and from people of widely different levels of education. It still exists, but attracts opprobrium.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Me neither. If they're from people you know, change your social circle. I'm not saying I never hear anything racist, but it's rare compared to when I was a child, or indeed my younger years generally. I think the last person I heard being a racist twat was David Starkey, and at the other end of of the braincell spectrum, that tram woman, so basically, on youtube, and from people of widely different levels of education. It still exists, but attracts opprobrium.



Like most people, I can't so easily change my workplace. Most people I socialise with aren't at all racist, if any.

I don't mean Starkey-type 'intellectualised' racism, just, as I said, casual racism of the type that's passed down the generations and repeated as a matter of course (I hear the same from certain family members sometimes and we have black married-in family members. It clearly doesn't apply to they and their offspring...) Sometimes I challenge it, sometimes I can't be arsed as I realised a long time ago that the world is incurably stupid.


----------



## discokermit (Jan 3, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> But I don't know. It just seems a bit daft to dismiss the whole place as seemingly populated only by irredeemable racists.


fuck 'em. they're cockneys.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 3, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Like most people, I can't so easily change my workplace. Most people I socialise with aren't at all racist, if any.


I work in an inner-city school and I've never heard racism from the staff and so rarely from the pupils that I can only recall one incident in the last few years. Schools are quite rarified places really and are not quite like working anywhere else.


----------



## newbie (Jan 3, 2012)

elbows said:


> Good news.
> 
> In some ways I was surprised by the verdict but I probably should have figured that it was a likely outcome if Id thought about it harder, as *the last thing anybody needed was for the farce to continue*, and even small forensic evidence tends to count for quite a lot.


that's the grounds for appeal, right there.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I work in an inner-city school and I've never heard racism from the staff and so rarely from the pupils that I can only recall one incident in the last few years



It is clearly dying out in your corner of the planet. And I don't work in a school.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 3, 2012)

Many people can and do change their workplaces regarding things like casual racism. In this case your defeatist attitude is misplaced I think.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Many people can and do change their workplaces regarding things like casual racism. In this case your defeatist attitude is misplaced I think.



I don't want to change my workplace, where I do pretty much what the fuck I want, just because I hear casual racism from arseholes. As I just said, water off a duck's fucking back.

And most people don't change jobs because they hear racism. Many welcome it and, indeed, join in.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Me neither. If they're from people you know, change your social circle. I'm not saying I never hear anything racist, but it's rare compared to when I was a child, or indeed my younger years generally. I think the last person I heard being a racist twat was David Starkey, and at the other end of of the braincell spectrum, that tram woman, so basically, on youtube, and from people of widely different levels of education. It still exists, but attracts opprobrium.


I hugely agree with you. What sort of circles is LLETSA moving in and continuing to move in despite being assailed by racist opinions every day? I hear this sort of crap myself maybe three times a year and act on it.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

discokermit said:


> fuck 'em. they're cockneys.


<insert wanker smilie here>


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Many people can and do change their workplaces regarding things like casual racism. In this case your defeatist attitude is misplaced I think.


Or challenge their colleagues.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> I hugely agree with you. What sort of circles is LLETSA moving in and continuing to move in despite being assailed by racist opinions every day? I hear this sort of crap myself maybe three times a year and act on it.


 
I act on it as well. I usually laugh at them. Most of them aren't hardline racists, it's just part of their normal dialogue to make cetain assumptions or repeat them. Others do it because they think it's funny or rebellious.

I suppose it depends what circles you move in. If you have a right-on type of job or mix mainly with politicos, you're bound to not encounter racism.

I don't see what's to be gained by this pretence that racism is dying out. It is definitely less openly expressed and less virulent than it used to be but it's still there.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 3, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> I don't want to change my workplace, where I do pretty much what the fuck I want, just because I hear casual racism from arseholes. As I just said, water off a duck's fucking back.
> 
> And most people don't change jobs because they hear racism. Many welcome it and, indeed, join in.



I didn't mean change jobs.I meant doing something about the racism where they work.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Or challenge their colleagues.


 
I used to do a lot more of this when I believed it was linked to political change. It can be exhausting and soul destroying. Now, as I said, I tend to regard the world as incurably idiotic. I can't help it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Or challenge their colleagues.


Yes. This is what I meant.


----------



## discokermit (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> <insert wanker smilie here>


cockneys are all bitter. i think it was because their granddads were all cuckolded by american servicemen during the war. it's left a legacy of hate.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> I act on it as well. I usually laugh at them. Most of them aren't hardline racists, it's just part of their normal dialogue to make cetain assumptions or repeat them. Others do it because they think it's funny or rebellious.
> 
> I suppose it depends what circles you move in. If you have a right-on type of job or mix mainly with politicos, you're bound to not encounter racism.
> 
> I don't see what's to be gained by this pretence that racism is dying out. It is definitely less openly expressed and less virulent than it used to be but it's still there.



Casual racism is not dying out but racists themselves are so often cowards they can be easily challenged. If challenged and dealt with rigorously they tend to keep their opinions to themselves or fuck off. Hence me wondering who you come into contact with and how much you challenge people.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I didn't mean change jobs.I meant doing something about the racism where they work.


 
What do you want me to do? It's just part of the everyday nonsense dialogue and isn't personally directed at anybody. The handful of non-white employees are perfectly capable of looking after themselves.

I might have to get something to beep out the nasty words though.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> I don't want to change my workplace, where I do pretty much what the fuck I want, just because I hear casual racism from arseholes. As I just said, water off a duck's fucking back.
> 
> And most people don't change jobs because they hear racism. Many welcome it and, indeed, join in.


It ain't water off a ducks back to many people. How do your black/brown colleagues feel about it?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

discokermit said:


> cockneys are all bitter. i think it was because their granddads were all cuckolded by american servicemen during the war. it's left a legacy of hate.


Take yer _humour_ and feck off.


----------



## grit (Jan 3, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> It can be exhausting and soul destroying. Now, as I said, I tend to regard the world as incurably idiotic. I can't help it.



This.

Some fights are not worth the effort. I had a white south african boss when I was younger, he was a staunch supporter of apartheid. I would argue the anti racist point with him, but fucking hell after a while I just realized what a fucking waste of time it was.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Casual racism is not dying out but racists themselves are so often cowards they can be easily challenged. If challenged and dealt with rigorously they tend to keep their opinions to themselves or fuck off. Hence me wondering who you come into contact with and how much you challenge people.


 
They're mostly people who I get on fine with in most circumstances. They've no time for organised racists and mostly vote Labour (if at all.) As I keep saying, it's just a set of assumptions passed down the generations-casual prejudice. Sometimes I take the piss, at other times I'm too preoccupied or can't be arsed.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> It ain't water off a ducks back to many people. How do your black/brown colleagues feel about it?


 
Like I said, the few that there are are perfectly capable of looking after themselves. In any case, it's mostly the type of casual prejudice that doesn't apply to those non-whites that you personally know.


----------



## discokermit (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Take yer _humour_ and feck off.


seriously, i've never known racism as bad as when i worked in south london/croydon. the black country is hardly some racist free utopia but when i moved to london i was genuinely shocked.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

grit said:


> This.
> 
> Some fights are not worth the effort. I had a white south african boss when I was younger, he was a staunch supporter of apartheid. I would argue the anti racist point with him, but fucking hell after a while I just realized what a fucking waste of time it was.


I would have fucked him up in all sorts of ways. Made his life a misery.


----------



## grit (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> I would have fucked him up in all sorts of ways. Made his life a misery.



He was my boss and an ex mercenary... I understand and appreciate your sentiment, but I'll admit my own sense of self preservation kicked in after a while.

I can see how challenging the casual racists could be productive,the type of people who dont even think about it, its just near tradition for them. The hardcore are a different breed.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

grit said:


> I can see how challenging the casual racists could be productive,the type of people who dont even think about it, its just near tradition for them. The hardcore are a different breed.



This is just the thing. You can talk to people about it and pretty much convince them they're wrong, only to find them saying exactly the same things at a later date (as with many subjects, not just racism.) Or they'll intensify what they normally say in an attempt to wind you up. In the end you just have to shrug your shoulders.

I think that those who work in teaching, local government, the charity sector etc etc may gain a pretty false view of how much racism still exists and how it's just second nature to loads of people.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

Casual racists are all around us and will never go away. They need to be challenged yes. Organised racists are a different matter. They need a brutal beating, be sent home limping as an example to the rest.


----------



## grit (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Casual racists are all around us and will never go away. They need to be challenged yes. Organised racists are a different matter. They need a brutal beating, be sent home limping as an example to the rest.



Yeah... thing is though you have to be careful, you can end being as bad as the thing you are fighting against IYSWIM.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

dp


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 3, 2012)

dp


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

discokermit said:


> People from the Black Country are all bitter. i think it was because their grandmothers all had willing and depraved sexual congress with the factory-owners while their menfolk were busy creating surplus value in the factories. it's left a legacy of hate.



Good of you to admit it, like.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

grit said:


> Yeah... thing is though you have to be careful, you can end being as bad as the you are fighting against IYSWIM.


I don't think you ever end up like that but for sure the emotional cost has taken a toll on quite a few. Not me really, I was always on the periphery but others have not worked, had relationships, the struggle fucked them up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

discokermit said:


> seriously, i've never known racism as bad as when i worked in south london/croydon. the black country is hardly some racist free utopia but when i moved to london i was genuinely shocked.



Croydon *thinks* it is London, but is actually Surrey touched by bits of London sprawl.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Croydon *thinks* it is London, but is actually Surrey touched by bits of London sprawl.



Don't piss us Croydonites off. There are more of us than in any other London Borough.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

grit said:


> He was my boss and an ex mercenary... I understand and appreciate your sentiment, but I'll admit my own sense of self preservation kicked in after a while.
> 
> I can see how challenging the casual racists could be productive,the type of people who dont even think about it, its just near tradition for them. The hardcore are a different breed.



Of course, "ex mercenary" in the RSA often means "me and my mates used to get ten rand a head off the local coppers for beating up kaffirs", or "I was a member of the AWB who went on weekenders to Namibia".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Don't piss us Croydonites off. There are more of us than in any other London Borough.



Because you're actually in Surrey, you Surreyite!


----------



## grit (Jan 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course, "ex mercenary" in the RSA often means "me and my mates used to get ten rand a head off the local coppers for beating up kaffirs", or "I was a member of the AWB who went on weekenders to Namibia".



Be as cute as you like, to this day he was one of the toughest men I've ever met, and I've drank with quite a few gangsters/provos while getting up to mischief in Dublin.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

grit said:


> Be as cute as you like, to this day he was one of the toughest men I've ever met, and I've drank with quite a few scumbags while getting up to mischief in Dublin.



I'm not being cute, I've met a few plastic Saffers, though, one of whom claimed to be an ex-merc, but couldn't even strip a Browning Hi-Power.


----------



## Meltingpot (Jan 3, 2012)

grit said:


> Be as cute as you like, to this day he was one of the toughest men I've ever met, and I've drank with quite a few gangsters/provos while getting up to mischief in Dublin.



What is it with SA and mercs? Pretty much every other time you hear of a mercenary in the news, he seems to have served in the South African army.


----------



## grit (Jan 3, 2012)

Meltingpot said:


> What is it with SA and mercs? Pretty much every other time you hear of a mercenary in the news, he seems to have served in the South African army.



My knowledge of the history is pretty shit, but apparently a huge amount of men who left the army just essentially became "soliders of fortune"(I think thats the correct term)/mercs  because they didnt know how to do anything else.

Apparently one common "game" these out of work soldiers used to play to kill time between jobs, was for one of them to rape a black woman while his mates called the cops. The object of the game being that you would "finish" and get out before cops/security responded


----------



## Meltingpot (Jan 3, 2012)

grit said:


> My knowledge of the history is pretty shit, but apparently a huge amount of men who left the army just essentially became "soliders of fortune" (I think thats the correct term) because they didnt know how to do anything else.



Yep, could be true but wouldn't that be true of soldiers from other countries too, is what I'm getting at; it seems to be SA in particular.



grit said:


> Apparently one common "game" these out of work soldiers used to play to kill time between jobs, was for one of them to rape a black woman while his mates called the cops. The object of the game being that you would "finish" and get out before cops/security responded



Bastards.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2012)

grit said:


> Apparently one common "game" these out of work soldiers used to play to kill time between jobs, was for one of them to rape a black woman while his mates called the cops. The object of the game being that you would "finish" and get out before cops/security responded



That's got more than a whiff of bollocks about it.


----------



## story (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Casual racists are all around us and will never go away. They need to be challenged yes. Organised racists are a different matter. They need a brutal beating, be sent home limping as an example to the rest.



Sometimes racism is insidious, and therefore hard to challenge.

A young black friend of mine who works in the gaming industry tells that, as the only black person in the office, most of the white people don't seem to know how to engage with him. When walking along a corridor he sees them deciding whether to greet him, to meet his eye, asking themselves "Well how would I greet a white person?" and trying to replicate it. He tells of how they make cheerful attempts to include him in conversation, after ceasing the conversation that was ongoing when he arrived.

Because of an HR problem, I pressed him on certain points. He was reluctant to suspect his colleagues of racism, but in the end the HR issue turned out to be a racist one.

How does one tackle this kind of invisible silent racism?

I have white South London acquaintances (Croydon & Crystal Palace) who have become more overtly racist in the last several months (since the riots, in fact...). They have hidden this from me over the years, presumably because they knew the reaction they'd get if they were more open.

I've had conversations with these people about their attitudes, and no longer see them. I recognise that nothing I have said will materially change their attitudes.

How can one challenge racism if it is hidden?

Mrs Magpie: I rarely encounter racism here in Brixton, but I know it happens. A poster on here recently experienced a racist comment in her child's school, in Lambeth. A mixed race friend of mine was recently turned down for a building job after being asked on the phone "Where were you born? (Zambia) We only employ British people". When he told me about it (again, only when I pressed him) I asked how often he encounters racism and he said "Weekly, at least." He lives in Tottenham.

When I asked these friends why they were so reluctant to speak about their experiences they told me that they can't change it, and don't want to waste time thinking about it, it's just part of their experience.

It prompted me to ask around, and the answers I have received suggest to me that racism is common, normal, and tolerated.

The racism displayed by the Lawrence killers is overt and dangerous, but the hidden racism is no less dangerous, and just as invidious.


----------



## grit (Jan 3, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> That's got more than a whiff of bollocks about it.



I've heard far stranger things in my life that I know for a fact to be true! but like anything it might not be, seems pretty tame considering some of the things that are acknowledged to go on in SA.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 3, 2012)

grit said:


> I've heard far stranger things in my life that I know for a fact to be true! but like anything it might not be, seems pretty tame considering some of the things that are acknowledged to go on in SA.


Tame???????


----------



## discokermit (Jan 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Good of you to admit it, like.


haha! like the bosses would bother!

have you seen black country women? or men? we're bred for work, not looks.


----------



## grit (Jan 3, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Tame???????



I have a family member thats done a lot of work as a charity medic over there, rape is an extremely common occurrence (I'd hope its obvious I'm not making light of the act of rape).


----------



## cantsin (Jan 3, 2012)

just read on a football related forum that Dobson's had a good kicking inside recently, broken ribs sustained. could be a long old stretch for these two.....


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 3, 2012)

BBC News predicts that because the judge will have to sentence as if they are minors, they could be looking at 15 years or possibly even less.

Doesn't seem like a lot, especially considering all the years they've got off. =/


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> BBC News predicts that because the judge will have to sentence as if they are minors, they could be looking at 15 years or possibly even less.
> 
> Doesn't seem like a lot, especially considering all the years they've got off. =/


These two ain't had much life in the meantime. They ain't the Acourts.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> These two ain't had much life in the meantime. They ain't the Acourts.


boo fucking hoo, not had much of a life. fuck them tbh.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> boo fucking hoo, not had much of a life. fuck them tbh.


I agree wholeheartedly with you with the boohoo. I think though if anything they have a Dante's Inferno style retribution for what they done. Years of Unemployment and vilification. Now years of prison. It's hardly going to improve when they get out either (if they make it).


----------



## Gingerman (Jan 3, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Some very dubious comments under this very good article. Why the torygraph ran it is a mystery, they continue to provide succor for racists.
> 
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100126
> 940/your-arrogant-racism-is-part-of-londons-past-an-open-letter-to-stephen-lawrences-killers/#disqus_thread


Fuck me,the Torygraph's comments section attracts some right fucking nutters


----------



## BlackArab (Jan 3, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> Was gonna say earlier the Mail was inevitably going to go to town on having run *that* headline.



Have to say despite my dislike for the DM, I will always respect them for this. It was unprecedented and I could be wrong but seemed to me to give a boost to the campaign having media pressure coming from the right as well as the left.


----------



## OneStrike (Jan 3, 2012)

TopCat said:


> These two ain't had much life in the meantime. They ain't the Acourts.



Whats with the Acourts then? have they been making money/come from money?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

It will all out soon enough...


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 3, 2012)

story said:


> Sometimes racism is insidious, and therefore hard to challenge.
> 
> A young black friend of mine who works in the gaming industry tells that, as the only black person in the office, most of the white people don't seem to know how to engage with him. *When walking along a corridor he sees them* deciding whether to greet him, to meet his eye,* asking themselves "Well how would I greet a white person?"* and trying to replicate it. He tells of how they make cheerful attempts to include him in conversation, after ceasing the conversation that was ongoing when he arrived.
> 
> ...



How on earth would he know what someone else is thinking?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 3, 2012)

ddraig said:


> e2a to 39th step
> have u got a link to go with that?
> i agree with Spy, i felt the tension and danger being there and travelling through and i am white
> i also worked with people from the area and even when i moved away had to go back for work sometimes and it didn't seem to have changed.
> ...


 
http://www.redaction.org/anti-fascism/is_anti-racism.html


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I wonder if they'll open up about the help they're _alleged_ to have received from certain quarters?



Which/what quarters would they be??


----------



## Corax (Jan 3, 2012)

BlackArab said:


> Have to say despite my dislike for the DM, I will always respect them for this. It was unprecedented and I could be wrong but seemed to me to give a boost to the campaign having media pressure coming from the right as well as the left.


Hearing Dacre on the radio coming close to claiming credit for the emancipation proclamation was a bit sickening though.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 3, 2012)

Corax said:


> Hearing Dacre on the radio coming close to claiming credit for the emancipation proclamation was a bit sickening though.


You have a stronger stomach than I do.


----------



## paolo (Jan 4, 2012)

BlackArab said:


> Have to say despite my dislike for the DM, I will always respect them for this. It was unprecedented and I could be wrong but seemed to me to give a boost to the campaign having media pressure coming from the right as well as the left.



At the time it was published, emotively at least I thought "good on the mail" (first and last time)

But in hindsight what I felt doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

These things need to run through as good a judicial process as we can get. To abandon that is mob justice. It's only steps away from the News of The World and peadiatricians being beaten up.

With such a bold headline, there's almost no doubt - in my mind - it was prejudicial to everything that followed. They didn't sue, ergo: Guilty as charged by the Mail. That's not an unreasonable, if simplistic, conclusion many will have come to (I certainly did).

We have to do better than that.

Finally, for at least two of the perpetrators, we have. I hope the remaining three are convicted - without the likes of the Mail getting into dangerous territory, no matter the visceral appeal.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 4, 2012)

Dunno really.  From what I followed of the latest case (obviously I didn't see all the evidence) I was not convinced "beyond reasonable doubt" of their guilt, since the plods had generally made a mess of the forensic evidence, and while the taped conversations proved conclusively that they are / were racist twunts, proof of being a racist twunt doesn't strike me as conclusive evidence of having committed one particular racist attack.

This whole case has led to a lot of odd positions.

The Daily Fail is hardly a beacon of anti racist campaigning - the cynical part of me wonders whether they would take up a case so eagerly if the victim was a black unemployed youth and the alleged attackers a bit more middle class.

The reaction of a lot of "law and order" types has been to get indignant about the abolition of the 'double jeopardy' rule.  I suspect they (and the "lefties" referred to somewhere on this thread) might have reacted differently if the first such case had been (say) a black youth accused of attacking a policeman.

As for Eltham - one London district can't be pigeon-holed, let alone any London borough, or the whole bit on one side of the River.  For a start, those of us from that far out in SE London (I grew up in the Grove Park kinda region) aren't "cockneys" thanks all the same.

But Eltham does seem to some extent to be different from many areas around it.  To some extent, Woolwich / Eltham has a  character more like a "one industry town" outside London - much of the housing estates round Well Hall went up during the 1914-18 war and subsequently, and much of the employment was based on the munitions / engineering trades around Woolwich.   (compare & contrast with Dagenham and Fords)


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Can't be a lesser charge, they have both been convicted of murder. They can only be sentenced to life. What their briefs have been quibbling about since the verdict is mitigation to be reflected in the minimum recommendation they each receive as to how long they must serve before they can be _considered_ for parole. An agreement to grass at this, or a later stage would be reflected in the min. rec.
> 
> What I do not know, will the min. rec. be set at today's rates, or as if they'd been sentenced at the time of the attack? Back in the mid 90's the min. recs. were a fair bit less that they are today.


Either way theyll probably be on 43's so grassing the others up shouldnt make any difference...


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> I don't know Eltham at all. I could be entirely wrong. Maybe it is something in the water round there. I do know we had riots that were attributed to race here, and that it became very fashionable to dismiss the whole estate, or even the whole town, as some white working class shithole where anybody looking a bit different wasn't welcome. Which, inevitably, caused attitudes to harden amongst some.
> 
> I'd suggest the vilification QP/Wrexham received in the wake of the riots was nothing compared to Eltham in the wake of Lawrence's murder. I'd suggest negative media reports condemning a whole community and everybody who lives there as backwards bigots often has the effect of creating a siege mentality in which frequently the negative traits attributed to them are embraced, at least by some.
> 
> But I don't know. It just seems a bit daft to dismiss the whole place as seemingly populated only by irredeemable racists.


Ordsall ???


----------



## Grandma Death (Jan 4, 2012)

I've always thought the double jeopardy rule was a weird anomaly. Why shouldn't someone be tried again if new and sufficient has come to light? 

As for the convictions. They are safe enough for me.  Whilst I accept there is an argument for cross contamination as was put forward by their defence this conviction is as a result of the sum of all parts. The lies. The video evidence. Also (and I know this wasn't considered by the jury)  the pair have a history of violent behaviour some of which was racist according to the article I read in the telegraph.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> At the time it was published, emotively at least I thought "good on the mail" (first and last time)
> 
> But in hindsight what I felt doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
> 
> ...


what I thought was a) we all knew they werefucking guilty; b) everyone also knows suing for libel is a rich man's game. Frankly the dm could have claimed I killed sl and I wouldn't have been able to sue. So, the mail was throwing its weight about and for once its desire to sell papers and people's anger about the murder coincided


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 4, 2012)

...oh yeah, a quick message to Alexander Baron ("author" of the article "Drop Dead Doreen Lawrence") - Fuck you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

Fucking's too good for him


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 4, 2012)

ddraig said:


> meaning most of the pubs round there,
> weird oasis of hate it was when i lived and worked around there
> and they seem proud of their saaarf lundon/kent border asshole attitude



I met a cheeky chappy from Eltham who was 'racist and proud' on holiday in Mexico a few years back. I just commented that in view of this, his choice of destination was perplexing.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2012)

^ I think for most of them the issue is immigration into this country. They're not generally concerned with tourism.

I'm surprised he didn't mention that to you.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 4, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Me neither. If they're from people you know, change your social circle. I'm not saying I never hear anything racist, but it's rare compared to when I was a child, or indeed my younger years generally. I think the last person I heard being a racist twat was David Starkey, and at the other end of of the braincell spectrum, that tram woman, so basically, on youtube, and from people of widely different levels of education. It still exists, but attracts opprobrium.



Yes, but you live in Brixton in cosmopolitan London. Meanwhile, in the rest of the country, casual racism is alive and well, ime.

In my home town 'paki' is used in everyday language by many. It perpetuates through confirmation bias. If I object, it is usually me who is viewed as having a problem.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 4, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> ^ I think for most of them the issue is immigration into this country. They're not generally concerned with tourism.
> 
> I'm surprised he didn't mention that to you.



Hey said 'racist and proud'. He didn't furnish me with the specifics and nor did I encourage further dialogue on the matter.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2012)

Right.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 4, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Yes, but you live in Brixton in cosmopolitan London. Meanwhile, in the rest of the country, casual racism is alive and well, ime.


I used to hear casual racism in Brixton all the time. Of course there are racists here, but in the thirty-odd years I've lived here things have changed for the better and it will elsewhere too. It's about a critical mass of people who make it clear it's out of order.


----------



## Ms T (Jan 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Either way theyll probably be on 43's so grassing the others up shouldnt make any difference...



It said on the radio this morning that the sentencing guidelines at the time of the attack will apply.


----------



## Ms T (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what I thought was a) we all knew they werefucking guilty; b) everyone also knows suing for libel is a rich man's game. Frankly the dm could have claimed I killed sl and I wouldn't have been able to sue. So, the mail was throwing its weight about and for once its desire to sell papers and people's anger about the murder coincided



Neville Lawrence was Paul Dacre's decorator iirc. That's why the DM took up the case.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

Ms T said:


> Neville Lawrence was Paul Dacre's decorator iirc. That's why the DM took up the case.


it suddenly looks less mysterious


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2012)

I loathe Dacre and the Mail as much as anyone but I think everyone in news learned something from the Mail’s ‘sue us’ headline, not least that later advances in DNA analysis can make you look a complete wanker (by potentially, or actually for a number of years now passed, prejudicing the possibility of a fair trail).


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 4, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I used to hear casual racism in Brixton all the time. Of course there are racists here, but in the thirty-odd years I've lived here things have changed for the better and it will elsewhere too. It's about a critical mass of people who make it clear it's out of order.



That's assuming that the same kind of stability continues. What's been going on in the world economy for the past three years suggests strongly that this will not be the case. Progress is not cumulative. Outside of the relatively small circles of committed political activists, opinions and attitudes are more fluid. Yesterday's casual racist is also tomorrow's casual racist. Yesterday's hardline racist is tomorrow's racist street activist or even killer. As I said earlier, racism hasn't gone away, it's just that people feel the need to be quieter about it. That's something that those who work in certain types of profession and/or spend most of their time among politicos tend to forget, I think.

And racism exists among all ethnic groups. Has nobody ever experienced the racism of those originating on the Indian sub-continent towards whites or blacks, or that of black people towards Asians?


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> And racism exists among all ethnic groups. Has nobody ever experienced the racism of those originating on thew Indian sub-continent towards whites or blacks, or that of black people towards Asians?


Yep, I hear it a lot. Mainly, because of the mix I interact with, it's Indian/Bangladeshi's about pretty well everyone - so many dreadful racists, and some Eastern Europeans towards other Eastern Europeans. I have to say some of the latter are also really very switched on and have embraced 'London' in all its forms inc. tolerance on a level they had no sense of at all before coming here.

Some of it is so stupid as well, almost all English people are on crack or coke, all white women are sluts, etc, etc. Same old, I suppose.


----------



## coley (Jan 4, 2012)

newbie said:


> that's the grounds for appeal, right there.


I have had the impression throughout this trial that the defence have just gone 'through the motions' keeping their powder dry for the appeal


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 4, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> Yep, I hear it a lot. Mainly, because of the mix I interact with, it's Indian/Bangladeshi's about pretty well everyone - so many dreadful racists, and some Eastern Europeans towards other Eastern Europeans. I have to say some of the latter are also really very switched on and have embraced 'London' in all its forms inc. tolerance on a level they had no sense of at all before coming here.
> 
> Some of it is so stupid as well, almost all English people are on crack or coke, all white women are sluts, etc, etc. Same old, I suppose.


 
This is just the thing-as people congratulate themselves that overt racism has supposedly disappeared, whole new categories of racist have appeared whose influence is bound to give succour to indiginous racists.

Also, we must not forget that it is in the post-McPherson etc era that an overtly racist party began to gain an unprecedented level of support while the terminal decline of the socialism etc adhered to by racism's most active opponents deepened. Just because that racist party is currently having problems, it doesn't mean the reasons for its support are disappearing. The economic crisis is bound to only deepen them.


----------



## dtb (Jan 4, 2012)

coley said:


> I have had the impression throughout this trial that the defence have just gone 'through the motions' keeping their powder dry for the appeal



yep, seems like they hardly offered up any defence at all


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 4, 2012)

MellySingsDoom said:


> ...oh yeah, a quick message to Alexander Baron ("author" of the article "Drop Dead Doreen Lawrence") - Fuck you.


 Alexander Baron died over ten years ago.


----------



## story (Jan 4, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> How on earth would he know what someone else is thinking?


 
So far as anyone is able to discern what another person is thinking or feeling, he probably got there the same way that you or I might: inference based on body language, instinct, previous experience, the context, other behaviours of the individual and so forth. He himself was very reluctant to assume there was any racism, and by giving his work colleagues the benefit of the doubt for many months, allowed a tricky situation to become entrenched and increasingly difficult to resolve. When the issue finally got addressed, one of the points against him was that he had not been bothered by it up til now, so what had changed.

Anyway, the veracity of his interpretation is kinda beside the point here. You have neatly illustrated the problem in such a situation. Since we cannot really know what another person is thinking, it's easy to miss the silent hidden racism and thus leave it unchallenged.


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 4, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Alexander Baron died over ten years ago.



Not the author/screenwriter Mrs M.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jan 4, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Alexander Baron died over ten years ago.


Not the novelist.


----------



## _angel_ (Jan 4, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Yes, but you live in Brixton in cosmopolitan London.


 Yeah, where someone got stabbed to death because he was black.  





> Meanwhile, in the rest of the country, casual racism is alive and well, ime.
> 
> In my home town 'paki' is used in everyday language by many. It perpetuates through confirmation bias. If I object, it is usually me who is viewed as having a problem.


----------



## paolo (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what I thought was a) we all knew they werefucking guilty; b) everyone also knows suing for libel is a rich man's game. Frankly the dm could have claimed I killed sl and I wouldn't have been able to sue. So, the mail was throwing its weight about and for once its desire to sell papers and people's anger about the murder coincided



All true but I'm not sure what you're actually concluding?


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 4, 2012)

story said:


> So far as anyone is able to discern what another person is thinking or feeling, he probably got there the same way that you or I might: inference based on body language, instinct, previous experience, the context, other behaviours of the individual and so forth. He himself was very reluctant to assume there was any racism, and by giving his work colleagues the benefit of the doubt for many months, allowed a tricky situation to become entrenched and increasingly difficult to resolve. When the issue finally got addressed, one of the points against him was that he had not been bothered by it up til now, so what had changed.
> 
> Anyway, the veracity of his interpretation is kinda beside the point here. You have neatly illustrated the problem in such a situation. Since we cannot really know what another person is thinking, it's easy to miss the silent hidden racism and thus leave it unchallenged.


 
How can you challenge something that's silent or hidden?

You can't second-guess what somebody might be thinking and go after them on that basis.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> All true but I'm not sure what you're actually concluding?


in part that your conclusions about the killers and the mail were a mite facile.


----------



## story (Jan 4, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> How can you challenge something that's silent or hidden?
> 
> You can't second-guess what somebody might be thinking and go after them on that basis.


 
That's the point I'm making, LLETSA.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post, to which The39thStep was responding.

Hidden, silent racism does exist, and how does one challenge that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

story said:


> That's the point I'm making, LLETSA.
> 
> Perhaps you missed my earlier post, to which The39thStep was responding.
> 
> Hidden, silent racism does exist, and how does one challenge that.


you have a witch hunt of course


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 4, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Yeah, where someone got stabbed to death because he was black.



Who?


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 4, 2012)

MellySingsDoom said:


> ...oh yeah, a quick message to Alexander Baron ("author" of the article "Drop Dead Doreen Lawrence") - Fuck you.



Any chance of a link to this article?

I've googled for it but all the links are dead.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Any chance of a link to this article?
> 
> I've googled for it but all the links are dead.


only because you don't know how to fucking google.  i'm not linking to a far-right website, but if you google "drop dead doreen lawrence" (including quotation marks) you'll find it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Any chance of a link to this article?
> 
> I've googled for it but all the links are dead.


I wouldn't bother, it's not like Baron is anything but an open racist, anti-semitic homophobe. It's not an article from a paper or anything.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> only because you don't know how to fucking google.  i'm not linking to a far-right website, but if you google "drop dead doreen lawrence" (including quotation marks) you'll find it.



Nope. Links are all still dead.

I did come across a post elsewhere saying that Google have removed all the links to it. Tried Yahoo, same shit.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I wouldn't bother, it's not like Baron is anything but an open racist, anti-semitic homophobe. It's not an article from a paper or anything.



Just some cunt's internet rant?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

were working 30 mins ago

it's on this site anyway w ww   infotext   manuscripts.o   rg/


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 4, 2012)

story said:


> That's the point I'm making, LLETSA.
> 
> Perhaps you missed my earlier post, to which The39thStep was responding.
> 
> Hidden, silent racism does exist, and how does one challenge that.


 
You can't challenge silent racism. And there's no need to challenge racism that isn't expressed.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 4, 2012)

Cheers, Pickers.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Just some cunt's internet rant?


Pretty much. Oddball character. Not worth discussing or wasting time thinking about really.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I wouldn't bother, it's not like Baron is anything but an open racist, anti-semitic homophobe. It's not an article from a paper or anything.



Is he that fascist-friendly oddball who's in the Islamic Party or some such?


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> were working 30 mins ago
> 
> it's on this site anyway w ww infotext manuscripts.o rg/


 
Getting this:



> Forbidden
> You don't have permission to access /poetry.html on this server.
> Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.



Anyway, fuck it. I get the gist.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Is it that fascist-friendly oddball who's in the Islamic Party or some such?


The Islamic Party did use his anti-gay materials (Mohammad Naseem who ran brum RESPECT was the link). He also took the SWP/Bookmarks bookshop to court for stocking searchlight years ago as well. (And that's more attention than he needs i reckon)


----------



## story (Jan 4, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> You can't challenge silent racism. And there's no need to challenge racism that isn't expressed.


 
No?

Silent racism affects the behaviour and attitudes of those who hold the views, and those who are on the receiving end of those attitudes.

It may not be stated, but silent racism is certainly acted upon. It informs decision making and choices, and it has an undermining effect on those who are despised.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 4, 2012)

story said:


> So far as anyone is able to discern what another person is thinking or feeling, he probably got there the same way that you or I might: inference based on body language, instinct, previous experience, the context, other behaviours of the individual and so forth. He himself was very reluctant to assume there was any racism, and by giving his work colleagues the benefit of the doubt for many months, allowed a tricky situation to become entrenched and increasingly difficult to resolve. When the issue finally got addressed, one of the points against him was that he had not been bothered by it up til now, so what had changed.
> 
> Anyway, the veracity of his interpretation is kinda beside the point here. You have neatly illustrated the problem in such a situation. Since we cannot really know what another person is thinking, it's easy to miss the silent hidden racism and thus leave it unchallenged.



I don't really think that it is desirable to try and challenge what we think someone might be thinking. The reality is that unlike the 60s when i was growing up most people in this country will have met a black person.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> only because you don't know how to fucking google.  i'm not linking to a far-right website, but if you google "drop dead doreen lawrence" (including quotation marks) you'll find it.



Forbidden access.


----------



## _angel_ (Jan 4, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Who?


ermmmmmmm..... it's kind of what the thread's about.


----------



## paolo (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> in part that your conclusions about the killers and the mail were a mite facile.



I described my own initial thoughts about the mail and the killers as facile.

I've no idea what point you're now trying to make.


----------



## Ted Striker (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Getting this:
> 
> Anyway, fuck it. I get the gist.



Tbh the most alarming thing in it was the line that everyone should sympathise Doreen and Neville for the murder of their son, but moreso Neville for being married to Doreen for so many years. It flicked from overt, common or garden relatively urbane racist bile, to end of the pier bawdy nonsense (then reverting to the familiar territory of defending the accused).


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jan 4, 2012)

Ian Blair on the Today programme talking about the possibility of further prosecutions said something along the lines of 'things change over time and the people who are providing protection [for the suspects] now may not be around to do so in the future' - implying that they're waiting for Acourt senior to drop off his perch, or somesuch?

Spymaster: re: Rod Liddle, he wrote an article in the Spectator which the attorney general is investigating for contempt of court, and the trial judge ordered the jury not to read. It was in the print issue, but has been withdrawn from their website (sorry for HuffPo link, first story I could find: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...f-court-stephen-lawrence-trial_n_1099296.html). It basically said that Norris and Dobson were innocent and were being persecuted by the police as a result of having been unproven suspects in the Lawrence case. It was contempt because it talked about one of them having been convicted of a racist offence (information which was covered by the media injunction to avoid prejudicing the jury). There was a copy knocking around on Twitter yesterday, I've had a quick look but can't find it, the original tweet may have been deleted. Someone with more Google skills/time than me might be able to find you a link. I think the case is still open, so Liddle might yet come to court.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 4, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> ermmmmmmm..... it's kind of what the thread's about.



So he got murdered in Brixton? 

I wasn't making a statement that nowhere in London is racist btw, just by and large it isn't really useful to use a cosmopolitan metropolis as the yard stick for UK attitudes as a whole.


----------



## Ms T (Jan 4, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Ian Blair on the Today programme talking about the possibility of further prosecutions said something along the lines of 'things change over time and the people who are providing protection [for the suspects] now may not be around to do so in the future' - implying that they're waiting for Acourt senior to drop off his perch, or somesuch?
> 
> Spymaster: re: Rod Liddle, he wrote an article in the Spectator which the DPP is investigating for contempt of court, and the trial judge ordered the jury not to read. It was in the print issue, but has been withdrawn from their website. It basically said that Norris and Dobson were innocent and were being persecuted by the police as a result of having been unproven suspects in the Lawrence case. It was contempt because it talked about one of them having been convicted of a racist offence (information which was covered by the media injunction to avoid prejudicing the jury). There was a copy knocking around on Twitter yesterday, I've had a quick look but can't find it, the original tweet may have been deleted. Someone with more Google skills/time than me might be able to find you a link. I think the case is still open, so Liddle might yet come to court.



That's not quite what he said, tbf.  His point was that it was impossible for them to get a fair trial because of the extensive previous coverage in the Daily Mail or elsewhere.  The article has been removed but is quoted here.

http://speakforengland.blogspot.com/2011/11/vindictive-charade-rod-liddle-and.html


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jan 4, 2012)

Ms T said:


> That's not quite what he said, tbf. His point was that it was impossible for them to get a fair trial because of the extensive previous coverage in the Daily Mail or elsewhere. The article has been removed but is quoted here.
> 
> http://speakforengland.blogspot.com/2011/11/vindictive-charade-rod-liddle-and.html



Ta - I was recalling from memory 
Edit: I was referring to this bit:
'A few years ago two of the men not now facing a retrial were sentenced to eighteen months in prison for having thrown an empty paper cup in the direction of a black policeman.' (Ah - one of the others - not one of those on trial. Yes.)​And he DID suggest they were being persecuted as a result of having been unproven suspects in the Lawrence case:
'But of course they were not sentenced to eighteen months for having thrown an empty paper cup in the direction of a police officer, they were sentenced to eighteen months for the crime of having not been found guilty of the murder of Stephen Lawrence'​
Anyway, it was a vile little article from a vile little man.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Liddle referred _mainly_ to the other suspects who were not in court this time and their previous convictions. I can't see it's contempt of court.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 4, 2012)

story said:


> No?
> 
> Silent racism affects the behaviour and attitudes of those who hold the views, and those who are on the receiving end of those attitudes.
> 
> It may not be stated, but silent racism is certainly acted upon. It informs decision making and choices, and it has an undermining effect on those who are despised.


 
So what do you suggest? That individuals are singled out for apparently having racist motives which although never expressed might be affecting their behaviour towards others? Who decides?


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 4, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Spymaster: re: Rod Liddle, he wrote an article in the Spectator which the attorney general is investigating for contempt of court, and the trial judge ordered the jury not to read. It was in the print issue, but has been withdrawn from their website (sorry for HuffPo link, first story I could find: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...f-court-stephen-lawrence-trial_n_1099296.html). It basically said that Norris and Dobson were innocent and were being persecuted by the police as a result of having been unproven suspects in the Lawrence case. It was contempt because it talked about one of them having been convicted of a racist offence (information which was covered by the media injunction to avoid prejudicing the jury). There was a copy knocking around on Twitter yesterday, I've had a quick look but can't find it, the original tweet may have been deleted. Someone with more Google skills/time than me might be able to find you a link. I think the case is still open, so Liddle might yet come to court.



Yes I've seen the Liddle article. Bits of it were cut and pasted into threads on Stormfront to bolster various viewpoints. Don't really fancy trawling through there again to find the Baron article though.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 4, 2012)

What time is sentencing?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

11-30


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Yes I've seen the Liddle article. Bits of it were cut and pasted into threads on Stormfront to bolster various viewpoints. Don't really fancy trawling through there again to find the Baron article though.



Sorry, I was catching up on the thread from yesterday, so my post was probably rather out-of-date given where the thread has gone since


----------



## ExtraRefined (Jan 4, 2012)

ddraig said:


> and still confident racist scum in Eltham
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That whole stretch of SE London along the old A2, Eltham, Welling, Bexleyheath, and even more so out into North Kent is still seriously racist.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Ta - I was recalling from memory
> Edit: I was referring to this bit:
> 'A few years ago two of the men not now facing a retrial were sentenced to eighteen months in prison for having thrown an empty paper cup in the direction of a black policeman.' (Ah - one of the others - not one of those on trial. Yes.)​And he DID suggest they were being persecuted as a result of having been unproven suspects in the Lawrence case:
> 'But of course they were not sentenced to eighteen months for having thrown an empty paper cup in the direction of a police officer, they were sentenced to eighteen months for the crime of having not been found guilty of the murder of Stephen Lawrence'​
> Anyway, it was a vile little article from a vile little man.



And he's wrong - Norris was convicted for that.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 4, 2012)

ExtraRefined said:


> That whole stretch of SE London along the old A2, Eltham, Welling, Bexleyheath, and even more so out into North Kent is still seriously racist.



Careful, Topcat will shout at you!


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> And he's wrong - Norris was convicted for that.



Yes, I was just reading this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/03/stephen-lawrence-police-nine-suspects
Which suggests that both Norris and one of the non-convicted were convicted together - was just going to post to ask whether anyone knows more - ??? (I think I read yesterday that they abused a black guy in the street, who turned out to be an off-duty cop).
(Interesting detail about the Acourts' lives in there, btw, though probably well-known to those who are better-informed about the case than me).


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Yes, I was just reading this:
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/03/stephen-lawrence-police-nine-suspects
> Which suggests that both Norris and one of the non-convicted were convicted together - was just going to post to ask whether anyone knows more - ??? (I think I read yesterday that they abused a black guy in the street, who turned out to be an off-duty cop).
> (Interesting detail about the Acourts' lives in there, btw, though probably well-known to those who are better-informed about the case than me).



The other one was one of the Acourts


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Careful, Topcat will shout at you!


So an area that has an ethnic minority population of over 30% is seriously racist? Add to the 30% the decent people who don't have any racist attitudes? How many people make an area seriously racist?


----------



## Ms T (Jan 4, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Ta - I was recalling from memory
> Edit: I was referring to this bit:
> 'A few years ago two of the men not now facing a retrial were sentenced to eighteen months in prison for having thrown an empty paper cup in the direction of a black policeman.' (Ah - one of the others - not one of those on trial. Yes.)​And he DID suggest they were being persecuted as a result of having been unproven suspects in the Lawrence case:
> 'But of course they were not sentenced to eighteen months for having thrown an empty paper cup in the direction of a police officer, they were sentenced to eighteen months for the crime of having not been found guilty of the murder of Stephen Lawrence'​
> Anyway, it was a vile little article from a vile little man.



The white working classes are one of Liddle's bugbears.  He does have a point about *some* of it.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> And he's wrong - Norris was convicted for that.


I remember now. It was less the paper cup and more the racist abuse he shouted at the black copper no? He went on rule 43 If I remember correctly? Or was that when the great gangster was caught nicking barrels from a pub?


----------



## coley (Jan 4, 2012)

Ms T said:


> That's not quite what he said, tbf. His point was that it was impossible for them to get a fair trial because of the extensive previous coverage in the Daily Mail or elsewhere. The article has been removed but is quoted here.
> 
> http://speakforengland.blogspot.com/2011/11/vindictive-charade-rod-liddle-and.html


And you can guarantee that will be the main thrust of the appeal, that and the doubts about 'contaminated' evidence


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

Ms T said:


> The white working classes are one of Liddle's bugbears. He does have a point about *some* of it.


Michael Collin in his book The Likes of Us: A Biography of the White Working Class used the orginal Lawrence trial to show (very convincingly) how these people were used as stick to beat the wider class with. Liddle couldn't manage that sustained critical examination if he was given the rest of his life to come up with it. Post-pub two paragraph rants is all he cna manage.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jan 4, 2012)

Oh interesting, I got that book for Xmas, will schedule it next on my reading list.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> I remember now. It was less the paper cup and more the racist abuse he shouted at the black copper no? He went on rule 43 If I remember correctly? Or was that when the great gangster was caught nicking barrels from a pub?


Yep, it was the abuse and driving the car directly at the copper. Don't know if they went on 43 but i know they've had serious grief inside so if they did, it doesn't bode well for their long term prospects...


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 4, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Forbidden access.



The page still works for me, so I can PM the link if you really want (not posting it here). He used to contribute to 'The New Right' group. But as butchers says, he's an oddball.


----------



## Ms T (Jan 4, 2012)

coley said:


> And you can guarantee that will be the main thrust of the appeal, that and the doubts about 'contaminated' evidence



We shall see but traditionally juries are given quite a lot of credit for being able to disregard previous publicity.  One of my colleagues (a journalist) was allowed to be on the jury for a pretty high-profile murder (the brother of that Eastenders actress who was stabbed in North London), which surprised me.  And the media did pretty much respect the blackout in this case.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said: ↑I wonder if they'll open up about the help they're _alleged_ to have received from certain quarters?
Fedayen: Which/what quarters would they be??

does someone wanna clarify this stuff?


----------



## ExtraRefined (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> So an area that has an ethnic minority population of over 30% is seriously racist? Add to the 30% the decent people who don't have any racist attitudes? How many people make an area seriously racist?


30%? What's that figure for, the whole of Greenwich Borough? Because it's certainly not accurate for the area I'm talking about. For Bexley as a whole it's 10%, and for Kent it's 6%.

I'm not convinced it's exactly a guarantee of racial harmony either. Alabama was 25% black in 1960.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> So an area that has an ethnic minority population of over 30% is seriously racist? Add to the 30% the decent people who don't have any racist attitudes? How many people make an area seriously racist?



Fwiw, I agree with you. My blood was up a bit when I made that post yesterday.

I just spent a fair bit of time in the area for a few years and felt highly unwelcome whenever we used the pubs, some of the shops, streets etc. You get used to low-level stuff and curiosity, but in and around Eltham the racism was far more palpable than anywhere else I've ever experienced _anywhere in the world_. It was a truly awful feeling.

Of course the entire community isn't racist, but sometimes it didn't half feel that way.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> it suddenly looks less mysterious


So it wasnt because of the emulsion the case engendered.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Yep, it was the abuse and driving the car directly at the copper. Don't know if they went on 43 but i know they've had serious grief inside so if they did, it doesn't bode well for their long term prospects...


Mr Norris senior made some comments about his lad letting the side down by going on the rule because he was getting aggro from other prisoners.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Fwiw, I agree with you. My blood was up a bit when I made that post yesterday.
> 
> I just spent a fair bit of time in the area for a few years and felt highly unwelcome whenever we used the pubs, some of the shops, streets etc. You get used to low-level stuff and curiosity, but in and around Eltham the racism was far more palpable than anywhere else I've ever experienced _anywhere in the world_. It was a truly awful feeling.
> 
> Of course the entire community isn't racist, but sometimes it didn't half feel that way.


Ok, I see your point.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Mr Norris senior made some comments about his lad letting the side down by going on the rule because he was getting aggro from other prisoners.



So going on 43 makes you some kind of wanker in the criminal community?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> So going on 43 makes you some kind of wanker in the criminal community?


Yes.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 4, 2012)

stephj said:


> The page still works for me, so I can PM the link if you really want (not posting it here).



Cheers appreciate it if you could. 

Although will have to check tonight as tapatalk won't let me access PMs.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> butchersapron said: ↑I wonder if they'll open up about the help they're _alleged_ to have received from certain quarters?
> Fedayen: Which/what quarters would they be??
> 
> does someone wanna clarify this stuff?


That coppers with long and profitable relationships with Norris and others did their best to make the investigation go wrong - whether through simple threats, fear of exposure or money.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Yes.


Yeah because your in with grasses, nonces, paedos, rapists , molesters and thats just the screws....


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Yes.



Is r43 solitary, or just mixed-in with a different set of prisoners?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> That coppers with long and profitable relationships with Norris and others did their best to make the investigation go wrong - whether though simple threats, fear of exposure or money.



thanks butchers! not up on this underworld stuff! someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the 'lawrence 2' may have info that is yet to come out about the other 3 and also that the mum of 1 had perjured herself. the legal - and extra-legal -  repercussions have yet to play out then!


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Is r43 solitary, or just mixed-in with a different set of prisoners?


When we got offered the choice by the screws as they had set us up for a hiding (Rochdale 8 - 1980) it was basically with the nonces/grasses, so not necessarily solitary( to go on soilitary is up to the prison authorities) The principal screw was a BM organiser, Brian Baldwin and his thinking was clear..put em in with the nonces..to further criminalise us. We declined it and took our chances in the shower...thankfully  the lube worked wonders...


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Is r43 solitary, or just mixed-in with a different set of prisoners?



It's the beast wing.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> When we got offered the choice by the screws as they had set us up for a hiding (Rochdale 8 - 1980) it was basically with the nonces/grasses, so not necessarily solitary( to go on soilitary is up to the prison authorities) The principal screw was a BM organiser, Brian Baldwin and his thinking was clear..put em in with the nonces..to further criminalise us. We declined it and took our chances in the shower...thankfully the lube worked wonders...



So it's just a different wing where all the R43 prisoners mix with each other?

Aren't nonces and the like just as likely to get done by other prisoners on rule 43 for something else?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> So it's just a different wing where all the R43 prisoners mix with each other?


Yes.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Is r43 solitary, or just mixed-in with a different set of prisoners?



Nonces, grasses, coppers and those who need to hide behind the screws for protection, like Noris. No 'self respecting' criminal would want to mix with nonces or ask the screws for protection.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> So an area that has an ethnic minority population of over 30% is seriously racist? Add to the 30% the decent people who don't have any racist attitudes? How many people make an area seriously racist?





> The white population of Eltham is 86.7%, which is below the national average of 92.2% but higher than the London district area average.[5] 12.3% of people were born outside the United Kingdom. The largest minority group in Eltham are Black-African and Black-Caribbean people, who compose 5.8% of the total population. Asians are 3.7% of Eltham's population


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltham

So given the influx from Eastern Europe to mainly poorer areas of London, it seems to be about, or maybe a tad over, 10% non-white which, just based on driving through, is a surprise to me. Don't see too many non-whites.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> So it's just a different wing where all the R43 prisoners mix with each other?
> 
> Aren't nonces and the like just as likely to get done by other prisoners on rule 43 for something else?



No, cos then you'd get slung back in with regular prisoners who'd know you're a wrong'un.


----------



## story (Jan 4, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> So what do you suggest? That individuals are singled out for apparently having racist motives which although never expressed might be affecting their behaviour towards others? Who decides?



No.

I am no more in favour of trying to identify or punish thought crime than you.

I hadn't got further than making the point that silent insidious racism does exist, and does have effects, and then asking the question "How can one challenge silent and hidden racism?"

I think it's a valid question, but I have no answer. I thought airing it here might be interesting. So far the response has been "There's nothing that can be done about it." Perhaps that is the best current answer. Perhaps the only racism we can realistically tackle is that which is overtly stated.

But there are people - some of whom have posted on this thread - who say they feel it is pointless or exhausting to challenge even overt racism.

It seems redundant to state that such laxity allows it to become or remain institutional.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltham


That's out of date and inaccurate. I will try and get the precise figure's.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 4, 2012)

some stats in this bbc bit
'healing an open wound'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16315568


> Bordered by the wards of Kidbrooke and Shooters Hill to the north and the borough of Bromley to the south, black and minority ethnic people make up more than a third of its population of 78,380. This compares with 41% in the borough of Greenwich and about 31% across London.
> In 1991, 6.3% of Eltham's population was made up of black and minority ethnic people.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

Meltingpot said:


> Yep, could be true but wouldn't that be true of soldiers from other countries too, is what I'm getting at; it seems to be SA in particular.



RSA's armed forces absorbed a lot of "overflow" in the '70s (literally tens of thousands of well-trained Rhodesian regulars) at the expense of some of their own not-so-well-trained elite units, which put quite a few people on the mercenary circuit. Bear in mind to that for regimes like South Africa, use of mercenaries (often former special forces) provided an element of cut-out *and* some plausible deniability if they wanted to go into a neighbouring country and piss around.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

Very interesting, judge says Dobson repeatably lied to put Norris in the clear...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

Ms T said:


> The white working classes are one of Liddle's bugbears. He does have a point about *some* of it.



That's one of Liddle's stock-in-trades, though. He constructs a tirade around a kernel of fact.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

So 12 years plus so far...No guarantee of release once min term is served


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Is r43 solitary, or just mixed-in with a different set of prisoners?



it's the nonce wing isn't it?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

Dobson - 15 years 2 months min


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

oh dear.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

Norris - 14 years, 3 months, min


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

norris 14yrs!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> So it wasnt because of the emulsion the case engendered.


Emulsion? Emotion? Probably in part it was


----------



## BlackArab (Jan 4, 2012)

One of the disturbing factors for me is that Dobson is the dead spit of one of my mates. Could pass for twins.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

BlackArab said:


> One of the disturbing factors for me is that Dobson is the dead spit of one of my mates. Could pass for twins.


So he's got a dobsonganger


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> So he's got a dobsonganger



A doppelgangster


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Is r43 solitary, or just mixed-in with a different set of prisoners?



No, rule 43 isn't solitary, it's "segregation from general population" and means you get housed in a prison's "vulnerable prisoner unit", which is like a normal prison wing, but populated with bent coppers, nonces, perverts, grasses and the heavily-indebted.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 4, 2012)

BlackArab said:


> One of the disturbing factors for me is that Dobson is the dead spit of one of my mates. Could pass for twins.


And David Norris recently ran to become Ireland's first openly gay president


----------



## BlackArab (Jan 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> So he's got a dobsonganger



 Probably a good thing he lives overseas now with his 'twin' all over the news.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 4, 2012)

I can't see them getting out after their allotted time. They'll stay a pair of embittered racists 'In Denial Of Murder'. I can't see a damascene moment of repentance.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> So it's just a different wing where all the R43 prisoners mix with each other?
> 
> Aren't nonces and the like just as likely to get done by other prisoners on rule 43 for something else?



Not really. Any of the knobbers in the VPU kick off, and it's back to "general population" for them, where they're likely to come a cropper.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Very interesting, judge says Dobson repeatably lied to put Norris in the clear...



Interesting, but not surprising, IMO.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> oh dear.



How sad.

Never mind!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I can't see them getting out after their allotted time. They'll stay a pair of embittered racists 'In Denial Of Murder'. I can't see a damascene moment of repentance.



My piles bleed for them.


----------



## coley (Jan 4, 2012)

Ms T said:


> We shall see but traditionally juries are given quite a lot of credit for being able to disregard previous publicity. One of my colleagues (a journalist) was allowed to be on the jury for a pretty high-profile murder (the brother of that Eastenders actress who was stabbed in North London), which surprised me. And the media did pretty much respect the blackout in this case.


Fair enough, but media blackout or not, if I had been up for jury selection and had been asked if I could be totally subjective in this case, my answer would have to be "no" and its this aspect I believe the defence will hang its hat


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 4, 2012)

Whatever you do, don't look at the comments on the Torygraph blogs. Almost all of the comments that have been left are barking. The vast majority are from fash like this one who calls himself "spearofodin" (a dead giveaway).



> *spearofodin*
> 16 hours ago
> How many are worth voting for on the grounds of merit ?
> 
> ...



However, "Groovybear" offers a cut and paste from the BNP website.



> Emma West, the woman who spoke out about​
> immigration on that Croydon tram was dragged through court once more on Tuesday​
> the 3rd January.​Emma West, however, is being brutally bullied by​
> the Establishment, clearly with the intention of cowing the entire native​
> ...



1. West didn't speak out against immigration, she hurled a load of racist abuse at her fellow passengers

2. The tone is hysterical. "Brutally bullied by the Establishment"? How?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

barnes is spear of odium. penis.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 4, 2012)

ddraig said:


> a young man was fucking murdered, this is not hysteria you apologist cunt
> oh and look, you've moved the goalposts already, no one has written off the whole area
> seriously, you might want to join the threads on stormfront instead if that is your logic



I wouldn't be surprised if our Stoaty wasn't a regular commenter on Torygraph blogs. His sentiments look similar to those I read yesterday.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> barnes is spear of odium. penis.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 4, 2012)

If they'd turned themselves in 18 years ago, they'd probably be out by now. Must be kicking themselves.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> If they'd turned themselves in 18 years ago, they'd probably be out by now. Must be kicking themselves.


i think someone else will be kicking them now!


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 4, 2012)

The comments over at shitcunt are hilarious.  

It's a Marxist conspiracy!  The soviet union has moved west! It's just like the show trials!


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 4, 2012)

Bet the other three are having sleepless nights.


----------



## hammerntongues (Jan 4, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> Bet the other three are having sleepless nights.



Hopefully all of them will have been having sleepless nights for the last 18 . Not through guilt because I doubt they have remorse but the constant looking over their shoulder , frankly I am amazed that there doesn`t seem to have been any private retribution handed out before this.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 4, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> Hopefully all of them will have been having sleepless nights for the last 18 . Not through guilt because I doubt they have remorse but the constant looking over their shoulder...



^^^
This. I take some comfort that because of their actions 18 years ago their lives have been more horrible that they would otherwise probably have been. Sweet dreams cunts.
I have a friend who was murdered in Catford, we all know who done it, but he got a not guilty at the Old Bailey. The murdering cunt will have to live with what he's done, had he got a guilty and done some time (wouldn't have been much tbf - squat fight & fire jobbie) he'd have done his penance and be free to move on. As it is he's gone a bit loopy and been wholly ostracised by pretty much everyone he's ever known.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> Bet the other three are having sleepless nights.



Chronic insomnia can drive you doolally-tap.

*RESULT!!!*


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> Hopefully all of them will have been having sleepless nights for the last 18 . Not through guilt because I doubt they have remorse but the constant looking over their shoulder...



I sadly doubt it, though. Still, hopefully they'll be making up for it after yesterday's verdict.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> A doppelgangster


Shit wish Id have added the gangster...
...its your gag even though I set you up..


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Interesting, but not surprising, IMO.


Suggest to me the non-norris accused were as scared of the consequences of dropping Norris junior in it as anything else.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

BlackArab said:


> One of the disturbing factors for me is that Dobson is the dead spit of one of my mates. Could pass for twins.


yeh? but he'll not have any bother unless he's inside i expect


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I can't see them getting out after their allotted time. They'll stay a pair of embittered racists 'In Denial Of Murder'. I can't see a damascene moment of repentance.


frankly i'll be surprised if we don't read of them being attacked in side, like happened to ian huntley


----------



## coley (Jan 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I sadly doubt it, though. Still, hopefully they'll be making up for it after yesterday's verdict.


Wonder if they offered them anything in return for squealing on the other three?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

coley said:


> Wonder if they offered them anything in return for squealing on the other three?


of course they did. 14 years minimum instead of 30.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2012)

I believe they were sentenced as juveniles.


----------



## BlackArab (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh? but he'll not have any bother unless he's inside i expect



Might take him to Notting Hill Carnival next time he's over for the lulz


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

BlackArab said:


> Might take him to Notting Hill Carnival next time he's over for the lulz


go to boots first for the bandages


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

coley said:


> Wonder if they offered them anything in return for squealing on the other three?


Given that Dobson was lying to cover for Norris even in this latest trial i suspect they/he feel the potential costs far outweigh the potential benefits.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> I believe they were sentenced as juveniles.


I was trying to find out on the net but delinkwent


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> I believe they were sentenced as juveniles.


based on...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Suggest to me the non-norris accused were as scared of the consequences of dropping Norris junior in it as anything else.



That is pretty much the vibe that's done the rounds over the last 2 decades. Tie into that some of the OB and ex OB wanting the case to go away, and Dobson (often viewed as the gang's Ygor character) being desperate to stop the whole house of cards collapsing (with the consequences that might have for his own family from the OB and from Norris associates) almost logically follows.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> based on...


Reports that they were sentenced as juveniles, perhaps? Have a read of the BBC report.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> based on...


 The judge said it in his pre-sentencing comments.


----------



## BlackArab (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> based on...



Their ages at the time of the crime


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> based on...



See if you can work it out.


----------



## marty21 (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> based on...


They were sentenced as juveniles as they murdered him when they were 16/17, That is my understanding .


----------



## Ranbay (Jan 4, 2012)

> The pair were sentenced at the Old Bailey as if they were juveniles because both were under 18 when the black teenager died.



init


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

coley said:


> Wonder if they offered them anything in return for squealing on the other three?



Given the dynamics of that little group, I'm not sure, now that Norris has been convicted, that inducements would be necessary. I reckon that if Norris and Dobson lose their appeal (and they almost certainly *will* appeal), then there's going to be a flow of new information hitting the investigation, either from people who no longer have to worry about the malign influence of the Norris family and their paid men in the OB, or from Knight and the Acourt Bros trying to save their own arses.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> See if you can work it out.


not having followed this story as closely as some, i wasn't aware of the judge's pre-sentence comments (cheers ba). when you say you 'believe' something, it would be nice to know why you 'believe' it.


----------



## xenon (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> based on...



There were several corrospondents on radio news this morning describing this   is how the sentensing would be imposed. A minimum of 12 years as juvaenile offenders. This also excluding the CJA 2003 amendments regarding racially motivated murder. (It could have been 25 years as a starter if this murder had been committed by adults after 2003.)

That was my understanding anyway FWIW.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Given that Dobson was lying to cover for Norris even in this latest trial i suspect they/he feel the potential costs far outweigh the potential benefits.



I reckon that dynamic is going to change, though, just like it did for Norris's esrtwhile contemporary Kenny Noye.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2012)

I very much doubt that. Noye is no kind of example.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I reckon that dynamic is going to change, though, just like it did for Norris's esrtwhile contemporary Kenny Noye.


It's a definite possibility - prior to the convictions people were still going to be very very wary, maybe not so much now. The again, if you open your mouth and you're inside it could be argued that you're now a target in a very confined space...that said, i don't know how much clout Norris and associates have now, inside or out.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> I very much doubt that. Noye is no kind of example.



Care to explain why you doubt it, oh gnomic one?


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 4, 2012)

Was yesterdays verdict unanimous, btw?


----------



## peterkro (Jan 4, 2012)

Yes.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

Spymaster said:


> Was yesterdays verdict unanimous, btw?


No it was published...


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Care to explain why you doubt it, oh gnomic one?


Noye was a feared and disliked criminal who was hated by very many people who knew him well - plenty would have been very happy to grass him up, if they had proof and could do it anonymously. He was a cunt to pretty well everyone.

This other lot will likely be a self styled 'band of brothers' gang with loyalty and hatred of authority being integral to their relationships. They are each 'one of your own' in south London vernacular. They've also had two decades to prepare for this.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> It's a definite possibility - prior to the convictions people were still going to be very very wary, maybe not so much now. The again, if you open your mouth and you're inside it could be argued that you're now a target in a very confined space...that said, i don't know how much clout Norris and associates have now, inside or out.



As said earlier, a lot of Norris Jr's "influence" resided in his father's reputation and contacts (including in the OB) at the time of the murder. While there are (as mentioned w/r/t the Daniel Morgan murder thread) still some of those same coppers around, they're not in the same position to exert influence now, whatever Norris Sr. might have on them, as they were back then.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> Noye was a feared and disliked criminal who was hated by very many people who knew him well - plenty would have been very happy to grass him up, if they had proof and could do it anonymously. He was a cunt to pretty well everyone.
> 
> This other lot will likely be a self styled 'band of brothers' gang with loyalty and hatred of authority being integral to their relationships. They are each 'one of your own' in south London vernacular. They've also had two decades to prepare for this.


so what you mean isn't 'noye is no kind of example' but 'noye is a bad example'.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2012)

Noye is a career criminal and from a diff world and a diff time.


----------



## Ranbay (Jan 4, 2012)

Poor lads where fitted up init...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> Noye was a feared and disliked criminal who was hated by very many people who knew him well - plenty would have been very happy to grass him up, if they had proof and could do it anonymously. He was a cunt to pretty well everyone.



Not true. It wasn't until late in his career that Noye sowed the seeds of his own destruction by acting like he didn't have to follow the same rules as "normal" crims. Before that, he was pretty scrupulous about cultivating those who knew him best. That he got convicted in the end wasn't down to an overwhelming weight of grassing against him, it was down to bloody-mindedness



> This other lot will likely be a self styled 'band of brothers' gang with loyalty and hatred of authority being integral to their relationships. They are each 'one of your own' in south London vernacular. They've also had two decades to prepare for this.



Two decades of thinking you're untouchable isn't as good a preparation as it might be.
As for "hatred of authority", given how often that band of thugs got a free pass from the local OB, you might more accurately say "contempt for".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> Poor lads where fitted up init...



Obviously, for "Mark Carter", shouting out "Oi, nigger!" and other racist abuse as they ran at Lawrence and Brooks doesn't constitute racism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> Noye is a career criminal and from a diff world and a diff time.



And a contemporary (and alleged sometime associate) of Clifford Norris, David Norris's dear old dad. Not really such a different world and different time, if ickle David was soaking up stories about daddy and daddy's mates on daddy's knee.


----------



## BlackArab (Jan 4, 2012)

The Lawrences thank the Daily Mail: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jan/04/stephen-lawrence-parents-daily-mail

more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2012/jan/04/lawrence-dailymail?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> of course they did. 14 years minimum instead of 30.


The tarrif (30 years) for racially aggravated murder does not apply as they have to be sentenced as if it was when it happened.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

Sentencing comments from judge here (pdf)


----------



## ddraig (Jan 4, 2012)

thanks ba


----------



## dtb (Jan 4, 2012)

the investigation cost £50m!!!


----------



## coley (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Given that Dobson was lying to cover for Norris even in this latest trial i suspect they/he feel the potential costs far outweigh the potential benefits.


I have a feeling they are pinning everything on an appeal otherwise I think they may have held their hands up.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 4, 2012)

dtb said:


> the investigation cost £50m!!!


 
£50m barely gets you a decent striker nowadays.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 4, 2012)

dtb said:


> the investigation cost £50m!!!


£30 million for a collapsed corrupt cops trial in South Wales
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-16009068


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 4, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> £50m barely gets you a decent striker nowadays.



And £2m short of Petra Ecclestone's house.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 4, 2012)

dtb said:


> the investigation cost £50m!!!



Murder investigations normally cost millions as soon as it gets a bit complicated.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

Don't expect anyone to know this for sure off the top of their head but given that this re-trial only happened following a judgment on appeal, does this impact on the likelihood of the convicted being given leave to appeal? Or is it irrelevant?


----------



## past caring (Jan 4, 2012)

Irrelevant.

ETA: I cannot see an application for leave being refused, either, at least not if drafted by a reasonably competent brief.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

Thought so, didn't see how it could be otherwise.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

panda, so norris's dad, who is 'a bit naughty' (copyright D. Dyer) was paying cops off to supress evidence against his wee boy then?


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> £50m barely gets you a decent striker nowadays.


Yeah as Chelsea will be reminding Mr Torres some time soon


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> I was trying to find out on the net but delinkwent


are you from the music hall?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> My piles bleed for them.


that put me off me spaghetti hoops!


----------



## ddraig (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> panda, so norris's dad, who is 'a bit naughty' (copyright D. Dyer) was paying cops off to supress evidence against his wee boy then?


come on! not fair to ask really
fingers/pies/dodgy cunts is all that is needed to be known really
oh and tis 'nawty' 'propah naw-tay'


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> are you from the music hall?


Acha cha cha...dats me done


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Acha cha cha...dats me done


i thank you and good nighta!


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

ddraig said:


> come on! not fair to ask really
> fingers/pies/dodgy cunts is all that is needed to be known really
> oh and tis 'nawty' 'propah naw-tay'


Fingers in dodgy cunts...story of my life


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

ddraig said:


> come on! not fair to ask really
> fingers/pies/dodgy cunts is all that is needed to be known really
> oh and tis 'nawty' 'propah naw-tay'


sorry, not familiar with this 'soccer vernacular!'


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Fingers in dodgy cunts...story of my life


youve been warned


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> panda, so norris's dad, who is 'a bit naughty' (copyright D. Dyer) was paying cops off to supress evidence against his wee boy then?



It's tangled.
Basically, what West Midlands Serious Crime Squad were to violence, South-east Regional Crime Squad were to corruption. While Norris's dad was never caught handing wedges of soiled fivers to coppers, he certainly had associations with coppers from SERCS, as well as with local plod. Associations good enough that he had an uncanny ability to predict when his assets were going to be raided, etc, and associations that would have stood him in good stead for a blind eye to be turned to the indiscretions of his son's little posse. How deeply these associations influenced the original Lawrence investigations, and how much was down to shoddy work and institutionally racist practices by the coppers, we'll never know. What we do know is that between those two factors, justice was denied for nearly 20 years.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

ddraig said:


> come on! not fair to ask really
> fingers/pies/dodgy cunts is all that is needed to be known really
> *oh and tis 'nawty' 'propah naw-tay'*



Only if you're from Dudley!
Here in Sahff Lahndahn it's "propah nor-tee".


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2012)

.


----------



## Lock&Light (Jan 4, 2012)

Does anyone know why there was a difference in the two sentences. What was that based on?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2012)

oops wrong thread


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's tangled.
> Basically, what West Midlands Serious Crime Squad were to violence, South-east Regional Crime Squad were to corruption. While Norris's dad was never caught handing wedges of soiled fivers to coppers, he certainly had associations with coppers from SERCS, as well as with local plod. Associations good enough that he had an uncanny ability to predict when his assets were going to be raided, etc, and associations that would have stood him in good stead for a blind eye to be turned to the indiscretions of his son's little posse. How deeply these associations influenced the original Lawrence investigations, and how much was down to shoddy work and institutionally racist practices by the coppers, we'll never know. What we do know is that between those two factors, justice was denied for nearly 20 years.


This crime squad were based in East Dulwich nick at the end of Underhill Road which | lived on in the 90's. They were a fucking nightmare. I saw them beating a man in the Chinese over the road from the nick and then calling their uniformed brethren to nick him!


----------



## maomao (Jan 4, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Does anyone know why there was a difference in the two sentences. What was that based on?


Age at the time of the crime. the full sentencing notes have already been linked to.


----------



## Lock&Light (Jan 4, 2012)

maomao said:


> Age at the time of the crime. the full sentencing notes have already been linked to.



Thanks.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jul/27/lawrence.ukcrime

This gives a bit more detail with regard to the bastard police.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> youve been warned


Ok I promise thats me out of here for a while....

......der der der der der der


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

more! more!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

cheers panda! is there a defnitive book on this - not a morton/gangland type thing tho!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> This crime squad were based in East Dulwich nick at the end of Underhill Road which | lived on in the 90's. They were a fucking nightmare. I saw them beating a man in the Chinese over the road from the nick and then calling their uniformed brethren to nick him!


well the guy in the chinese takeaway shd have taken em to court to claim compensation - a cop suey as it shd be known! (feck, bignose's 'humour' has got to me!!!)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> cheers panda! is there a defnitive book on this - not a morton/gangland type thing tho!



Unfortunately nothing definitive. Like I said on the Daniel Morgan thread last year, a lot of it is stuff picked up from reading various articles over the last 25 or so years, from experiencing policing in that area as opposed to policing in SW London, and from talking to mates and acquaintances who got on the wrong side of the SERCS (in one case, because the bloke beat an SERCS copper in a burn up on their respective Suzuki Katanas  ). There's books that touch on the various bits and pieces, but nothing definitive as yet.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

maybe not for long ! theres bound to be a hack version as the story now has some sort of 'closure' ending. tho obviously theres a couple more to nick!


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 4, 2012)

On the subject of Daniel Morgan, I'm near certain that Clifford Norris was part of that same ring of corrupt plod, informers and gangsters in SE London, that Jonathan Rees was part of, and Morgan probably signed his death warrant by finding out about and confronting Rees over it.


----------



## Lock&Light (Jan 4, 2012)

Streathamite said:


> On the subject of Daniel Morgan, I'm near certain that Clifford Norris was part of that same ring of corrupt plod, informers and gangsters in SE London, that Jonathan Rees was part of, and Morgan probably signed his death warrant by finding out about and confronting Rees over it.



Is there a a website, or other place, where the subject of Daniel Morgan can be easily read up on?


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> ...that said, i don't know how much clout Norris and associates have now, inside or out.


pretty much none; not least because when he got sent down  for nine years, customs and police managed to nab pretty much all he had. Norris is unemployed and on benefits, living in a bedsit in Kent. Well and truly yesterday's man.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 4, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Is there a a website, or other place, where the subject of Daniel Morgan can be easily read up on?


not one that gives the full, grim story with any degree of depth or substance. It took me an awful lot of webwork.


----------



## Lock&Light (Jan 4, 2012)

Streathamite said:


> not one that gives the full, grim story with any degree of depth or substance. It took me an awful lot of webwork.



Be good if you could write a book on it.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 4, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Be good if you could write a book on it.


thank'ee, but that's a labour too far for me!


----------



## xenon (Jan 4, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Is there a a website, or other place, where the subject of Daniel Morgan can be easily read up on?




These old articles might help.

Murder trial collapse exposes News of the World links to police corruption 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/mar/11/news-of-the-world-police-corruption?INTCMP=SRCH

Daniel Morgan Murder Time Line
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/11/daniel-morgan-axe-murder-case-timeline

And also found this WRT thread.

Lawrence case 'corruption' probe
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5214644.stm


----------



## Lock&Light (Jan 4, 2012)

xenon said:


> These old articles might help.



Thanks for those.


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

BlackArab said:


> The Lawrences thank the Daily Mail: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jan/04/stephen-lawrence-parents-daily-mail
> 
> more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2012/jan/04/lawrence-dailymail?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487



fuck me how confused must the guilty parties feel, lapping up all the Mail racism for years then being told by em racism is wrong!!!


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> panda, so norris's dad, who is 'a bit naughty' (copyright D. Dyer) was paying cops off to supress evidence against his wee boy then?



theres stuff like this mentioned in a few geezer books i read years ago, can't remember which ones though...corruption was rife down that neck of the woods


----------



## xenon (Jan 4, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Thanks for those.



No worries. I bookmarked them when Streathamite amongst others, were posting about the whole NoWT and surrounding issues in the Summer.


----------



## Lock&Light (Jan 4, 2012)

xenon said:


> No worries. I bookmarked them when Streathamite amongst others, were posting about the whole NoWT and surrounding issues in the Summer.



Good thinking.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2012)

Police say new evidence has come to light:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16413433
have Norris & Dobson ratted their mates out? If so, why would they do so?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Police say new evidence has come to light:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16413433
> have Norris & Dobson ratted their mates out? If so, why would they do so?



Probably not them grassing, but there'll be plenty of folk happy to talk now these two are safely away for a long, long time.


----------



## Gingerman (Jan 4, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Probably not them grassing, but there'll be plenty of folk happy to talk now these two are safely away for a long, long time.


Did'nt loads of people call the OB after the murder fingering these guys? Imagine theres lots of people in the area who'd be happy to see the lot of them banged up.The Acourts and their little gang seem the sort of swaggering cunts who liked to throw their weight around what they laughingly call their 'manor', making life miserable for people.Squeaky bumtime for the Acourts and Knight.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 4, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> Did'nt loads of people call the OB after the murder fingering these guys?


A total of 26 tip-offs, most naming Acourt & his gang.


----------



## Garek (Jan 4, 2012)

Including some left under the wipers of plod cars.


----------



## fat Andy (Jan 4, 2012)

Garek said:


> Including some left under the wipers of plod cars.



Inteligence yes, but not evidence. Sadly often the case that people will gladly tell the police who did it, but wont do it formally (perhaps understandable) or back up the statement with facts, evidence etc......


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> A total of 26 tip-offs, most naming Acourt & his gang.


So many good people of Eltham came forward despite the fear.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> So many good people of Eltham came forward despite the fear.


...and very quickly, but the police followed their own flawed and way-off the mark theories in that Stephen must have known his attacker and was probably dodgy, being as he was black


----------



## newbie (Jan 4, 2012)

coley said:


> I have a feeling they are pinning everything on an appeal otherwise I think they may have held their hands up.


aye, and I've a feeling they'll win it, as perhaps they should.  Which saddens me because I believe they are racist murderers who should have been banged up a long time ago.

The headlines today seemed to be fairly unanimous that justice had been done, eventually.  Everybody knew they did it, they shouldn't have got away with it for so long.  That sentiment has been widespread for twenty odd years, like many others I first heard of them when I read about them on the front page of the Mail, and everything that's happened since has simply reinforced the well-known fact that they did it.

How can there be a jury untainted by those atmospherics?  The presumption of guilt was tangible. Even the youngest jurors have spent their entire life with this coming up again and again with the constant theme that justice had not been done, everybody knew who did it, just as everybody knows that corrupt police were paid off by gangsters. No juror could consider an acquittal without anticipating that the massive weight of public opinion would think, and vociferously say or more likely SHOUT, that they'd got it wrong.

I'll be surprised if the appeal doesn't succeed.

.


----------



## Gingerman (Jan 4, 2012)

Wheres Norris Snr these days? still banged up? for someone who's cast a malignant shadow over the whole case I cant recall ever seen a pic of him anywhere.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ...and very quickly, but the police followed their own flawed and way-off the mark theories in that Stephen must have known his attacker and was probably dodgy, being as he was black


It was ever thus.


----------



## articul8 (Jan 4, 2012)

Shame what happened to Duwayne as well, it turned him into a lib dem


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

They will never win on appeal. They caused so much grief for senior plod and politicians that they will pay and pay. It won't be long before the Acourts get theirs and I will raise a glass on that day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> They will never win on appeal. They caused so much grief for senior plod and politicians that they will pay and pay. It won't be long before the Acourts get theirs and I will raise a glass on that day.


Not just the one I hope!


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 4, 2012)

newbie said:


> I'll be surprised if the appeal doesn't succeed.


When I was reading news reports of the trial online I wasn't that sure that the evidence was strong enough and if I'd been a juror going on just what the news said I might have not been sure beyond reasonable doubt. Since I've looked deeper into stuff actually said and presented in court I would have found them guilty. There's all sorts of technical detail regarding the issue of cross-contamination that never made it into the news reports.


----------



## newbie (Jan 4, 2012)

I don't think there's been any reasonable doubvt in anyone's mind for many years. Which makes the evidence something of a formality.

I hope TopCat is right.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

newbie said:


> I don't think there's been any reasonable doubt in anyone's mind for many years.


I dunno about that. Well if you had that view a few weeks ago it was not based on available evidence or if it was you were not evaluating it fairly in my view. The stuff that came out at the trial made a big difference.

Don't get me wrong, we knew they were violent racist bastards but killers of Lawrence?


----------



## Geri (Jan 4, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> Wheres Norris Snr these days? still banged up? for someone who's cast a malignant shadow over the whole case I cant recall ever seen a pic of him anywhere.



He's living in a bedsit above a shop.


----------



## newbie (Jan 4, 2012)

I knew little or nothing of them being violent or racist at any other time but concur with the inescapable conclusion that they were the killers of Lawrence. And have done for donkey's years.  Haven't you?

You or any of us could have been on that jury, do you honestly believe you could push aside everything you've 'known' and every single conversation you've ever had about the subject and go solely on what you'd hear in court?  Be fair and impartial to a pair of racist murderers who've got away with it for far too long? I don't think I could, nor would I trust that the other 11 could either.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 4, 2012)

Been catching up with this thread properly, took a while but thanks for all stuff that I wasn't yet clued up on. Plus repect also to plenty of regulars for getting so well informed and for their resarch ...  

Especially thanks for clarifying what the contemptible and loathesome Rod Liddle had been up to.

Very much hoping that Knight and the Acourts get their comeuppance soon ... some grounds for hope on that in earlier posts and links maybe.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2012)

do you only get your info from this place, WoW?


----------



## newbie (Jan 4, 2012)

Come to that, given the stuff you've posted on this thread about the Acourts, would you resign because of bias if asked to be on a jury for one or both of them for this murder?

I'm not having a go or trying to put you on the spot, just trying to clarify why the verdict is likely to be overturned on appeal.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

newbie said:


> Come to that, given the stuff you've posted on this thread about the Acourts, would you resign because of bias if asked to be on a jury for one or both of them for this murder?
> 
> I'm not having a go or trying to put you on the spot, just trying to clarify why the verdict is likely to be overturned on appeal.


No.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

But hell will freeze over before I am invited onto a jury.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 4, 2012)

Nothing particularly groundbreaking in these two Guardian articles but very interesting reading all the same :

Vikram Dodd on the Stephen Lawrence and the determination of his parents :

Neville and Doreen Lawrence's long fight for justice sent shockwaves across all levels of British society

Sandra Laville on Dobson/Norris and associates :

Stephen Lawrence's murderers grew from swaggering teenage racists into jobless middle-aged men


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2012)

oh yeah, the Guardian too


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 4, 2012)

Why not? They're perfectly reasonable articles, nothing perfect or anything as I said.

And the G was all I had time to get more up to date with today, a bit of TV aside, until I found time tonight for this (obviously wider/broader ranging) thread.

Thanks for your input though ...


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2012)

i just found it extraordinary that you didn't know about the rod liddle stuff.
it's wise to get your info from a wide range of sources, not just this place.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 4, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Is there a a website, or other place, where the subject of Daniel Morgan can be easily read up on?



The Transpontine blog mentioned has published a lot of interesting local information related to it.

The Dave Courtney thread from the Summer has some useful links, as did the Milly Dowler/NOTW one from July onwards.

There is also a thread specifically about the Daniel Morgan murder case.

Finally, there is of course the Morgan family's Justice For Daniel campaign website.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> i just found it extraordinary that you didn't know about the rod liddle stuff.
> it's wise to get your info from a wide range of sources, not just this place.


I didn't know about the Rod Liddle stuff either. So what? From what little I now know it would appear that Mr Liddle is someone I could happily live a life never coming to know about,


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

He is just teasing WoW.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 4, 2012)

Oh, ok.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2012)

The Mirror claims that there may now be further re-investigations into:

"...the racist murder of teenager Rolan Adams – who was stabbed to death in February 1991, two miles from where Stephen died – the racist stabbing of Asian restaurant worker Gurdeep Bhangal and the attempted murder of white youth Stacey Benefield."

with this lot in the frame.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 4, 2012)

There was another racist murder in Eltham around this time I'm sure - a young Asian lad iirc.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Excellent if they are finally going over Roland Adams death again.


----------



## colacubes (Jan 4, 2012)

I just watched last night's Panorama and have been in tears all the way through it.  I was only 15 when it happened and although I've been politically aware and active for a long time and followed the case as I was growing up it really brought it home to me what that family have been through.  The lack of respect and dignity afforded to that poor kid while he was dying   Just awful   Although I'd always known about the fuck ups of the police and their corruption I'd never realised the lack of compassion he was shown as he was dying   I thought I'd been hardened to this shit over the years through the job I work in and the dreadful injustices and discrimination I hear about but fucking hell 

Sorry - threads probably gone past it but I'm genuinely angry and upset.  I hope they get the rest of them and the Lawrence family get the justice they deserve.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> He is just teasing WoW.


And the rod liddle info was googleable.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 4, 2012)

Belushi said:


> There was another racist murder in Eltham around this time I'm sure - a young Asian lad iirc.



2 more, Rohit Dugal and Ruhullah Aramesh.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> And the rod liddle info was googleable.


Only if you knew it existed.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Only if you knew it existed.


Aye, I was only teasing him cos he asked about this at the beginning of the trial


----------



## Belushi (Jan 4, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> 2 more, Rohit Dugal and Ruhullah Aramesh.



Ah, it was Rohit Dugal I was thinking of. That killing was also on Well Hall Rd iirc, very close to where Lawrence was murdered.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Aye, I was only teasing him cos he asked about this at the beginning of the trial


Exactly.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Exactly.


Huh?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> The Mirror claims that there may now be further re-investigations into:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of note is that Sergeant Crowley from Plumstead nick - the one who verballed Duwayne Brooks, claiming that Brooks had 'admitted' to him that he had not seen the faces of the killers of Stephen Lawrence whilst en route to Southwark ID suite - was also working the Adams inquiry. Crowley was subsequently accused of "undermining the credibility of Nathan Adams, the principal prosecution witness, surviving victim and brother of Rolan Adams" during that investigation.

http://www.chronicleworld.org/archive/lawrence/sli-22.htm


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 4, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Ah, it was Rohit Dugal I was thinking of. That killing was also on Well Hall Rd iirc, very close to where Lawrence was murdered.



A bit up the road I think yeah. There was a march through Eltham in his memory that could have ended up as a disaster and major victory of the far-right were it not for some rather selfless and quick thinking & actions by numerous folk.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Is cuntface Crowley still employed as Bill?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> A bit up the road I think yeah. There was a march through Eltham in his memory that could have ended up as a disaster and major victory of the far-right were it not for some rather selfless and quick thinking & actions by numerous folk.


Expand?


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Expand?



The march walked into hundreds of BNP/C18/B&H types with the support of a fair number of locals. It was totally unstewarded and unprepared for such an eventuality. Numerous people got organised into stewards groups, defended the march flagged down buses and got people out of the area before it became a disaster.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 4, 2012)

when was this please fed?
i'm presuming you are not on about the march that was supposed to go to the bookshop or the time a meeting was attacked in the library in welling?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 4, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> The march walked into hundreds of BNP/C18/B&H types with the support of a fair number of locals. It was totally unstewarded and unprepared for such an eventuality. Numerous people got organised into stewards groups, defended the march flagged down buses and got people out of the area before it became a disaster.


Thanks.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 4, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Thanks.



More than welcome TC


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 4, 2012)

ddraig said:


> when was this please fed?
> i'm presuming you are not on about the march that was supposed to go to the bookshop or the time a meeting was attacked in the library in welling?



Late 1992, nah it was neither the October 1993 march or the attack on the library meeting in 1990. The Rohit Duggal was the 'catalyst' in many ways for a direct pop at the bookshop. The march on May 8th 1993 got to the bookshop and had a go and was well stewarded and well defended. The fash didn't have it their way that time, neither did the police.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 4, 2012)

thanks


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 4, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> The march walked into hundreds of BNP/C18/B&H types with the support of a fair number of locals. It was totally unstewarded and unprepared for such an eventuality. Numerous people got organised into stewards groups, defended the march flagged down buses and got people out of the area before it became a disaster.



Is this the march organised by the Rohit Duggal Family Campaign in November 1992, from which SWP/ARA types were excluded following the Lee Jasper hijacking of the Rolan Adams campaign (_Beating The Fascists_ pp223-5)?


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 4, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Is this the march organised by the Rohit Duggal Family Campaign in November 1992, from which SWP/ARA types were excluded following the Lee Jasper hijacking of the Rolan Adams campaign (_Beating The Fascists_ pp223-5)?



Yeah that'd be the one I think.


----------



## Sweetpea (Jan 4, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Ah, it was Rohit Dugal I was thinking of. That killing was also on Well Hall Rd iirc, very close to where Lawrence was murdered.


Ruhullah Aramesh was murdered in Thornton Heath, quite a way from Eltham.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> A bit up the road I think yeah. There was a march through Eltham in his memory that could have ended up as a disaster and major victory of the far-right were it not for some rather selfless and quick thinking & actions by numerous folk.


sounds a bit like the national black caucus bermondsey debacle


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 4, 2012)

Sweetpea said:


> Ruhullah Aramesh was murdered in Thornton Heath, quite a way from Eltham.



Aye it was outside of Eltham, but within a few miles of the area.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> sounds a bit like the national black caucus bermondsey debacle



It didn't get that bad due to quick thinking and acting.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 4, 2012)

As someone who hasn't been following this story at all - are people generally satisfied it was these two guys that did it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

8ball said:


> As someone who hasn't been following this story at all - are people generally satisfied it was these two guys that did it?


i'm not satisfied but it was those two blokes and some of their mates


----------



## Gingerman (Jan 5, 2012)

http://www.prweek.com/uk/news/92814/
I bet he wont be putting that on his resumé


----------



## paolo (Jan 5, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> http://www.prweek.com/uk/news/92814/
> I bet he wont be putting that on his resumé



WTF? I assume Clifford is doing this solely to maintain the profile of the 'Clifford Brand', rather than actually believing they are innocent, but jeez.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 5, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> WTF? I assume Clifford is doing this solely to maintain the profile of the 'Clifford Brand', rather than actually believing they are innocent, but jeez.


you do know the difference between 1998 and 2012, don't you? don't you?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 5, 2012)

paolo999 said:


> WTF? I assume Clifford is doing this solely to maintain the profile of the 'Clifford Brand', rather than actually believing they are innocent, but jeez.


 That was from 1998


----------



## 8ball (Jan 5, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not satisfied but it was those two blokes and some of their mates



So is the general consensus that it was a larger group but these were the only two they had sufficient evidence on?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 5, 2012)

8ball said:


> So is the general consensus that it was a larger group but these were the only two they had sufficient evidence on?


no, i don't think i represent the general consensus


----------



## 8ball (Jan 5, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i don't think i represent the general consensus



Ok, so I take it that's your personal opinion, though?

I've not been paying attention but I get the impression that it's 'taken as read' by the mainstream media that these two are guilty, even if there are others equally guilty not in the dock.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 5, 2012)

Ju


malatesta32 said:


> well the guy in the chinese takeaway shd have taken em to court to claim compensation - a cop suey as it shd be known! (feck, bignose's 'humour' has got to me!!!)


....how dare you say anything after that.........but I like it!!!!!!!!!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 5, 2012)

Did any of 'the five' or their chums from the NTO like Hyland (convicted for the earlier racist attack on Marlon Conton) or Copley and Goatley (both involved in the Rolan Adams killing, and along with Hyland connected to a car of "laughing white youths" seen prowling Well Hall Road following the Lawrence murder) pay the hundred quid to Duwayne Brooks when he sued them in 2008?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jun/14/lawrence.ukcrime
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/72556.stm
http://www.chronicleworld.org/archive/lawrence/sli-20.htm

And was no further action taken against the ex-cop and the former civilian police worker nicked in 2009 over non-disclosure of evidence during the original Lawrence murder investigation because there was no evidence that they were bent/racist/incompetent, or just not enough evidence to prove it?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8420905.stm
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2873419/No-action-over-Lawrence-pair.html


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

Re; Eltham

My own (negative)experiences of the area (1989) would echo those of many above.

@TC - afaics nobody is labelling 'the whole population'. What people have stated is that the area stood out in that agressive and casual racism were very much 'in yer face' there. The committed racists/fascists seemed to have a substantial sea of casual racism in which to swim.

Re; the percentage of 'non-white' people in the area as 'evidence' that the area was not dangerously and violently racist... This is a red herring, surely? Bits of Bethnal Green were well on top racially (including many of the pubs) in the 80's/90's but the area had a huge asian population.

@ those who insist that all casual racism (whether in the workplace or the pub) must be challenged at all times... tis well for ye that live and work in places where this is doable. Many people don't. It is easy to challenge racism, especially in an office-type environment, these days. Being one of the very few to challenge it in an Eltham pub (or indeed on most London building sites) in the 80's and 90's was a much more challenging (and potentially dangerous) affair. So to anyone who lived/lives in those areas and does a bit (no matter how much or how little) I salute you - to those getting all evangelical I would respectfully suggest ye cop yerselves on a wee bit and accept that 'pulling' people over casual racism is not _always_ either effective, advisable or even safe.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 5, 2012)

8ball said:


> So is the general consensus that it was a larger group but these were the only two they had sufficient evidence on?


yes, pay attention


----------



## two sheds (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm not sure I'd agree they couldn't receive a fair trial because of the amount of publicity by the way. Yes it was a disgusting crime but the question is whether or not they did it which seems to me to be a wholely different question.

The Daily Mail article is different, though, but is also a difficult one. How do you balance the chance of prejudicing the trial against a protest against the police just letting racist offenders go free.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 5, 2012)

Interesting 1991 article from _The Guardian_ (or possibly _The Observer_) about Thamesmead in the wake of the Rolan Adams murder, covering NTO/The Firm/Goldfish Gang, as well as police/CPS unwillingness to label it a racist attack, SWP/NBC/BNP political football etc:

http://gangsinlondon.blogspot.com/1991/05/last-exit-to-nowhere-two-black-men-have.html


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Re; Eltham
> 
> My own (negative)experiences of the area (1989) would echo those of many above.
> 
> ...


 
Don't disagree with much of this Liam but for you to announce, bravely, that  'nobody is labelling the whole population' simply leaves a convenient bolt hole for those that are. Look at not just the Mail's  but the Mirror's coverage when they sent reporters down to the area and it is simply full of white working class= racist chavs type bile.Some of that sentiment seeps onto his board at times imo.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Don't disagree with much of this Liam but for you to announce, bravely, that 'nobody is labelling the whole population' simply leaves a convenient bolt hole for those that are.



can you expand on this a bit.... then we might have a chance to clarify before the shouty liberals arrive?



The39thStep said:


> Look at not just the Mail's but the Mirror's coverage when they sent reporters down to the area and it is simply full of white working class= racist chavs type bile.Some of that sentiment seeps onto his board at times imo.



To clarify my own position... I was referring to posts on here (especially TC reckoning people were doing that on here) rather than in the Press. I would not disagree with your point, nor indeed for the tendency for some urbanites to indulge (pardon the pun...)_ liberally_ in anti-working class bile dressed up as right-on politics.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> @ *those who insist that all casual racism (whether in the workplace or the pub) must be challenged at all times*... tis well for ye that live and work in places where this is doable. Many people don't. It is easy to challenge racism, especially in an office-type environment, these days. Being one of the very few to challenge it in an Eltham pub (or indeed on most London building sites) in the 80's and 90's was a much more challenging (and potentially dangerous) affair. So to anyone who lived/lives in those areas and does a bit (no matter how much or how little) I salute you - to those getting all evangelical I would respectfully suggest ye cop yerselves on a wee bit and accept that 'pulling' people over casual racism is not _always_ either effective, advisable or even safe.



Who would those be? There was a conversation earlier about challenging casual racism in the workplace and the possibility or not of changing the workplace for the better by challenging it. Before you make your respectful suggestions, maybe you should characterise others' positions more accurately.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Who would those be? There was a conversation earlier about challenging casual racism in the workplace and the possibility or not of changing the workplace for the better by challenging it. Before you make your respectful suggestions, maybe you should characterise others' positions more accurately.


 
I can't be arsed looking them up, it's a long thread(I was on  a voluntary ban and unable to partake at the time) but I was a little confused/disappointed by the moralising responses of some posters to Lletsa's post about casual racism.

If you are that bothered link to the discussion and I'll name names for you.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> So to anyone who lived/lives in those areas and does a bit (no matter how much or how little) I salute you - to those getting all evangelical I would respectfully suggest ye cop yerselves on a wee bit and accept that 'pulling' people over casual racism is not _always_ either effective, advisable or even safe.


And try to image being non-white and living there, inc. having your kids go to school there. Back then, the  area of contention extended right down to estates in Orpington as well.

Fwiw, I have spoken to a coupe of people who are pretty atuned to sentiment in that area and they do say things have 'got better'. How you put then and now in a frame of reference I have no idea....


----------



## 8ball (Jan 5, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> yes, pay attention



Ok.  I've not been paying attention, as I said, but it can be hard to tell from meeja reports when these things become big showtrials.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> Did'nt loads of people call the OB after the murder fingering these guys? Imagine theres lots of people in the area who'd be happy to see the lot of them banged up.The Acourts and their little gang seem the sort of swaggering cunts who liked to throw their weight around what they laughingly call their 'manor', making life miserable for people.Squeaky bumtime for the Acourts and Knight.



Over two dozen separate I.D.s of the whole gang within 24 hours of the murder. Shows in what esteem they were held, doesn't it?


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 5, 2012)

'esteem' being fundamental to fuck all, of course.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> And try to image being non-white and living there, inc. having your kids go to school there.



In some ways (and please don't take this the _wrong_ way) it was/is easier for non-whites than whites. And before people get their knickers in a twist I better expand on that.

1. If you are from that area/estate then your being a Local often 'trumps' your skin colour/religion/sexuality/politics etc. 'He might be a nigger/taig/queer/commie... but he is OUR....'

2. Black people are black. They don't have any choices to make about what 'side' they are on. Nor will their own side label them a 'traitor' the way an actively anti-racist white kid might be labelled by his peers. A special kind of contempt was reserved for traitors/Lundy's IME.

Do you opt for the safety of the tribe? Do you choose to opt out of the tribe mentality but say nothing aloud? Do you remove yourself physically from the area at the earliest opportunity and spend the rest of your days decrying the 'Chavs' who remain? Do you speak out? Do you do it privately or publicly? Do you _physically_ lay your stall out? Do you worry about come-backs on your family for what you say or do?

I would say I have done all of the above at different times in my life.

Having said all that it is my experience that any genuine positive change must ultimately come from _within_ the community/estate. Attempts to impose change by outsiders (whether by the OB, the Council or by those in the semi-State Race Industry) often prove less than helpful.

None of the above in any way diminishes the very real sense of fear and tension that was the daily experience of many non-white people. Nor is it intended to.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 5, 2012)

You seem to be talking about school friends and not how the wider culture/area might treat you. Whatever, it reads a bit Michelle Pfeiffer/Hollywood.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

But as you yourself have said, Liam, there are plenty of non-racist white people in Eltham. You seem to be asking 'What do I do if I fall in with a bunch of racist cunts?' Um, fall out with them, perhaps?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> You seem to be talking about school friends and not how the wider culture/area might treat you. Whatever, it reads a bit Michele Phiffer.



you'll have to expand on that. Not sure what you are saying.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> can you expand on this a bit.... then we might have a chance to clarify before the shouty liberals arrive?
> 
> To clarify my own position... I was referring to posts on here (especially TC reckoning people were doing that on here) rather than in the Press. I would not disagree with your point, nor indeed for the tendency for some urbanites to indulge (pardon the pun...)_ liberally_ in anti-working class bile dressed up as right-on politics.



Just wouldn't want to let the shouty liberals who do equate racism asworking class culture to seek cover  within you saying that  nobody was labelling the whole community when in fact I would rather let them expose themsleves.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> 1. If you are from that area/estate then your being a Local often 'trumps' your skin colour/religion/sexuality/politics etc. 'He might be a nigger/taig/queer/commie... but he is OUR....'


How true do you really think this is?


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> you'll have to expand on that. Not sure what you are saying.


If it's not clear enough, Stephen Lawrence came from the Eltham area, and so did his murderers i.e. the same circs that you believe makes it "easier for non-whites".


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> If it's not clear enough, Stephen Lawrence came from Eltham area, and so did his murderers i.e. the same area that you believe makes it "easier".


Indeed. I have to say the idea that it's in any way easier for black people growing up in an area full of white racists than white people who are not racist is rather strange.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> In some ways (and please don't take this the _wrong_ way) it was/is easier for non-whites than whites. And before people get their knickers in a twist I better expand on that.
> 
> 1. If you are from that area/estate then your being a Local often 'trumps' your skin colour/religion/sexuality/politics etc. 'He might be a nigger/taig/queer/commie... but he is OUR....'
> 
> ...



This chimes in with the narrative within the Routes to Racism research which concluded that racism was a product of a youth culture in the area ( rather than parenting etc) in which racism ( rather than anti racsism) was seen to be a radical response against the existing order . There was also a widespread perception that things were bent in a way in which non whites benefited.

in a wider context these were exactly the conditions that the BNP did so well in their 'Rights for Whites' campaign and later their narrative that whites should be treated as a racial identity on par with other racial identities.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But as you yourself have said, Liam, there are plenty of non-racist white people in Eltham. You seem to be asking 'What do I do if I fall in with a bunch of racist cunts?' Um, fall out with them, perhaps?



I'm not talking about Eltham specifically. Have a read of the article linked above (which I have only just done ... after I posted).

In the city I grew up in there were 2 racist murders within a few weeks of each other the year I left school. Many of those convicted were indeed schoolmates or kids I grew up with. Me and my mate made a concious decision to go on the anti-racist protest march that so many of our 'mates' were trying to attack. There were social repercussions for many years. I sometimes reflect that, whilst that stance may have been right from a political/moral point of view for us personally, it was not the most effective in terms of any influence we may have had amongst our peers because it made us 'outsiders' (whose views could be instantly dismissed simply because of that).

I now live in the north of Ireland. I have lost count of how many people (community workers/ Artists/ even ex-prisoners) from Loyalist areas who have been driven out by 'their own' for daring to question the prevailing views and attitudes. Loyalist communities/estates (where if you substitute religious labels for race,  you have the same as kind of reactionary attitudes and intimidation as many white estates in england in the 80's) are often devoid of any social dissent at all.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Just wouldn't want to let the shouty liberals who do equate racism asworking class culture to seek cover within you saying that nobody was labelling the whole community when in fact I would rather let them expose themsleves.



glad we cleared that up cos they are circling now...



littlebabyjesus said:


> How true do you really think this is?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But as you yourself have said, Liam, there are plenty of non-racist white people in Eltham. You seem to be asking 'What do I do if I fall in with a bunch of racist cunts?' Um, fall out with them, perhaps?



If only it were that easy.
Realistically, "getting out" can be the hardest thing of all, especially if you've no means to leave the area, so even if you have the courage of your convictions, you (and/or your family) may be unable to escape the consequences of them.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But as you yourself have said, Liam, there are plenty of non-racist white people in Eltham. You seem to be asking 'What do I do if I fall in with a bunch of racist cunts?' Um, fall out with them, perhaps?



That is not what I am saying at all.

Besides it reduces everything to the personal level. Sometimes if you want to influence a group of people you must find a way to do so from within the group - unless of course you prefer to indulge yourself in finger-wagging and tutting for the rest of your natural.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

I've tried to engage in a civil way, Liam, even though I think you're talking utter bollocks. But hey ho. You seem unable to engage without labelling other posters this or that...


----------



## coley (Jan 5, 2012)

newbie said:


> aye, and I've a feeling they'll win it, as perhaps they should. Which saddens me because I believe they are racist murderers who should have been banged up a long time ago.
> 
> The headlines today seemed to be fairly unanimous that justice had been done, eventually. Everybody knew they did it, they shouldn't have got away with it for so long. That sentiment has been widespread for twenty odd years, like many others I first heard of them when I read about them on the front page of the Mail, and everything that's happened since has simply reinforced the well-known fact that they did it.
> 
> ...


Totally agree and I believe this is what will get them off, it will not be hard for any decent QC to make a case that it was impossible for them to recieve a fair trial, in fact I believe the defence will concentrate soley on this issue, as to introduce the forensics might allow the appeal court to rule in a guilty verdict.
All because of of police incomptence, corruption and racism 20 years ago.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> That is not what I am saying at all.
> 
> Besides it reduces everything to the personal level. Sometimes if you want to influence a group of people you must find a way to do so from within the group - unless of course you prefer to indulge yourself in finger-wagging and tutting for the rest of your natural.


But you are the one reducing everything to the personal level. Your post makes no sense when you extend it to people you don't know. The idea that it's easier for black people to deal with racism from strangers than for white people to deal with racism from strangers is simply laughable, as is the idea that, when dealing with people you don't know, 'he's 'our' nigger/queer/etc'. You think gay-bashers don't pick on locals because they're locals?


----------



## treelover (Jan 5, 2012)

'Eltham, like Britain, has changed since. Most markedly, what was once a bastion of the white working class has become every bit as racially diverse as the rest of the capital. In 1991, just 6.3 per cent of its population was black or from an ethnic minority. Today, that figure is 34 per cent – compared with 31 per cent for London as a whole.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...d-but-the-hate-goes-on-in-eltham-6285108.html

Its not just the tabloids that have articles about those dreadful white working class areas, estates,etc, the Indie has had a number of them over the last two days, including this one, note, 'bastion' is a military term for a fortress... though for the writer its just not 'hideously white' anymore..


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## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Indeed. I have to say the idea that it's in any way easier for black people growing up in an area full of white racists than white people who are not racist is rather strange.



Which is why I made such an effort to clarify exactly what I meant in my post... thereby making it more likely that any disingenuous wiberal lefty coming along afterwards and _deliberately_ choosing to read what they would _like_ me to have said, rather than what I actually wrote... look like a complete cunt.

Oh for the black & white, fundamentalist world you crave...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

treelover said:


> Its not just the tabloids that have articlea about those dreadful white working class areas, estates,etc, the Indie has had number of them over the last two days, including this one, note, 'bastion' is a military term for a fortress... though for the writer its just not 'hideously white' anymore..


Yep, they try to reduce things to simplistic narratives and are not averse to lying to do so. The same happened with the Mail's coverage of a racist murder in Hastings a couple of years ago, in which they used pictures from over a decade ago of derelict buildings that have since been totally renovated to paint a picture of a nasty dole-scum smackville-on-sea.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Which is why I made such an effort to clarify exactly what I meant in my post... thereby making it more likely that any disingenuous wiberal lefty coming along afterwards and deliberately choosing to read what they would _like_ me to have said, rather than what I actually wrote... look like a complete cunt.
> 
> Oh for the black & white, fundamentalist world you crave...


You don't make any sense at all.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But you are the one reducing everything to the personal level. Your post makes no sense when you extend it to people you don't know. The idea that it's easier for black people to deal with racism from strangers than for white people to deal with racism from strangers is simply laughable, as is the idea that, when dealing with people you don't know, 'he's 'our' nigger/queer/etc'. You think gay-bashers don't pick on locals because they're locals?



 again with the strawmen? kiss my proletarian ringpiece


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 5, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Probably not them grassing, but there'll be plenty of folk happy to talk now these two are safely away for a long, long time.



It doesn't seem unreasonable to anticipate that victims and witnesses of past incidents involving the Acourt-Norris gang/NTO will be more vocal (or rather, more heard) now that the first two have gone down - especially now that the Rolan Adams killing and other brutal assaults are also being revisited in the public square.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...gs-in-eltham-had-gone-unpunished-6284643.html


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> again with the strawmen? kiss my proletarian ringpiece


I would argue with you, but I no longer have the first idea what you are saying. I suspect you don't either.


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## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The idea that it's easier for black people to deal with racism from strangers than for white people to deal with racism from strangers is simply laughable



EXACTLY. Which is why I said _no such thing_. Ever. But you already know this, don't you?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> 1. If you are from that area/estate then your being a Local often 'trumps' your skin colour/religion/sexuality/politics etc. 'He might be a nigger/taig/queer/commie... but he is OUR....'





littlebabyjesus said:


> How true do you really think this is?


Ok, one last go. How is this a strawman?


----------



## past caring (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But you are the one reducing everything to the personal level. Your post makes no sense when you extend it to people you don't know. The idea that it's easier for black people to deal with racism from strangers than for white people to deal with racism from strangers is simply laughable, as is the idea that, when dealing with people you don't know, 'he's 'our' nigger/queer/etc'. You think gay-bashers don't pick on locals because they're locals?



You're overlooking a couple of crucial words in the post from Liam that kicked this all off - he said "in some ways" it can be easier being black.

Do you think (speaking in general terms, of course, becauase there's always exceptions that proove the rule) there might be no circumstances/experiences that might be more difficult for white kids to deal with?

ETA: for the sake of clarity and to perhaps make it easier - I am talking about some experiences that, generally speaking, black kids aren't going to have....


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> EXACTLY. Which is why I said _no such thing_. Ever. But you already know this, don't you?


No, I don't. I don't have a clue what your point is. Are you talking about people you know personally and how you relate to them, or people who live in the same area that you do not know personally?


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## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> *I've tried to engage in a civil way, Liam*, even though I think you're talking utter bollocks. But hey ho. You seem unable to engage without labelling other posters this or that...



Lol.

Confusing passive-aggression and the persistent erection of strawmen with 'civility' is illustrative. just so you recognise my agression is of the non-passive variety ... fuck off you posh twat.


----------



## treelover (Jan 5, 2012)

Btw, what on earth has happened to the Indie web site? its all over the place...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Lol.
> 
> Confusing passive-aggression and the persistent erection of strawmen with 'civility' is illustrative. just so you recognise my agression is of the non-passive variety ... fuck off you posh twat.


Wow. You accusing others of passive-aggression? Do you have any self-awareness at all?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 5, 2012)

I suppose it could mean that a black person could have the support of their friends, family etc (although it wuld probably be very different if they were one of the only black families in the area). Not at all sure about the "local" stuff either tho liam given my own experiences and those of mates with homophobia etc, altho am sure that for some people it's the case.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I suppose it could mean that a black person could have the support of their friends, family etc (although it wuld probably be very different if they were one of the only black families in the area). Not at all sure about the "local" stuff either, altho am sure that for some people it's the case.


Well it wasn't the case for Stephen Lawrence.


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## frogwoman (Jan 5, 2012)

well. no.


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## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Wow. You accusing others of passive-aggression? Do you have any self-awareness at all?



Lol.

Listen, Nurse Ratchett... I am deeply insulted by the likes of you labelling my open and honest aggression 'passive'.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Which is why I made such an effort to clarify exactly what I meant in my post... thereby making it more likely that any disingenuous wiberal lefty coming along afterwards and deliberately choosing to read what they would _like_ me to have said, rather than what I actually wrote... look like a complete cunt.
> 
> Oh for the black & white, fundamentalist world you crave...



Has it ever actually existed?
I mean, I'd love to be able to reduce racism to a simple anti-human impulse fueled by irrationality, even to an attribute of a particular class (because for reasons of personal prejudice I'd love to be able to assure myself that *all* middle-class people are racists), but it's *always* more complicated than someone deciding whether or not to be a cunt. There are *always* environmental factors involved that are peculiar to each manifestation.
That's why I don't even agree with the binary opposition of racist/not-racist that the media are happy to tout - racism/non-racism aren't just ideological positions, they're also situated in the environment of the individual attempting to adopt the position, and by environment I don't just mean _locale_ or class, I also mean the social and economic situation of the individual.


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## hammerntongues (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well it wasn't the case for Stephen Lawrence.



why do you come to that conclusion , it seems to me from seeing both archive and recent footage that he had many friends and a very close family ?


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

You're weird and unpleasant, liam. Engaging with you is extremely frustrating. I'm leaving you alone now.


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## past caring (Jan 5, 2012)

You're a fucking clown, tbf.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> why do you come to that conclusion , it seems to me from seeing both archive and recent footage that he had many friends and a very close family ?


Being local didn't save him from the local racists.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2012)

past caring said:


> You're a fucking clown, tbf.



Is that anything like a juggling clown? 

I hate clowns!


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I suppose it could mean that a black person could have the support of their friends, family etc (although it wuld probably be very different if they were one of the only black families in the area). Not at all sure about the "local" stuff either tho liam given my own experiences and those of mates with homophobia etc, altho am sure that for some people it's the case.



hi froggy.

No the simple point I was making, in response to another poster - which lbj has deliberately chosen to 'confuse' or consider only out of context - was that there was no moral/social dilemna or choices for black people... they were black... they were visibly different and identifiable because of this... they were subjected to racism on a daily basis _because_ of this.

A white person living on such an estate had a dilemna, had choices to make.

here is my post that set lbj off




LiamO said:


> In some ways (and please don't take this the _wrong_ way) it was/is easier for non-whites than whites. And before people get their knickers in a twist I better expand on that.
> 
> 1. If you are from that area/estate then your being a Local often 'trumps' your skin colour/religion/sexuality/politics etc. 'He might be a nigger/taig/queer/commie... but he is OUR....'
> 
> ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Being local didn't save him from the local racists.



Which is probably why the original statement about being local was qualified.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> No the simple point I was making, in response to another poster - which lbj has deliberately chosen to 'confuse' or consider only out of context - was that there was no moral/social dilemna or choices for black people... they were black... they were visibly different and identifiable because of this... they were subjected to racism on a daily basis _because_ of this.
> 
> A white person living on such an estate had a dilemna, had choices to make.



LBJ was questioning your first point more than your second point, I think.


----------



## hammerntongues (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Being local didn't save him from the local racists.



My take on that ,  and it is of course only a personal opinion , is  that if he had been known to those cunts and not just an anonymous poor black kid then it is likely it wouldn`t have happened. same area does n`t make you local in this scenario sadly.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which is probably why the original statement about being local was qualified.


It was?



> If you are from that area/estate then your being a Local often 'trumps' your skin colour/religion/sexuality/politics etc. 'He might be a nigger/taig/queer/commie... but he is OUR....'



Well, I suppose 'often' is a qualification. I would dispute this statement and the truth of it.


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## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You're weird and unpleasant, liam. Engaging with you is extremely frustrating. I'm leaving you alone now.



Now THAT what I call _passive_-aggression.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Now THAT what I call _passive_-aggression.


No it's not.


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## frogwoman (Jan 5, 2012)

yep the whole "i hate pakis but you're all right". i don't think it's true in every case though - anita desai wrote a very good book about her experiences growing up as an asian kid in such an environment and the fact that even though she was thought to be "all right" her experiences etc inevitably ended up pushing her apart from the people she was hanging around with. and the dilemmas that someone would face in such a situation - "you're all right, not like the others" are pretty similar to those of the anti-fash white kids tbh.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It was?
> 
> Well, I suppose 'often' is a qualification. I would dispute this statement and the truth of it.



Dispute away, by all means, but do so with substance, not rhetoric, please!


----------



## past caring (Jan 5, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I suppose it could mean that a black person could have the support of their friends, family etc (although it wuld probably be very different if they were one of the only black families in the area). Not at all sure about the "local" stuff either tho liam given my own experiences and those of mates with homophobia etc, altho am sure that for some people it's the case.



What I was getting at - and one of the "some ways" that Liam's post was pretty much correct, I'd say. i.e. how many black kids who experience(d) racism at school/the youth club/in their neighbourhood also go home to racist parents and wider family? White kids who come to the conclusion that racism is wrong may well have to deal with the fallout of how they reconcile that outlook with the views of some of their nearest and dearest. That isn't to say that racism is easier to deal with if you're black, of course, but then again, that wasn't what was said....

The homophobia thing is a bit different, though, I think - for one, there is at least the option of not coming out/pretending to conform. I do think that there's some element of truth in what Liam has said with this, though - not that someone who is gay will be entirely safe in an area because they are local, but that friends who are homophobic in general will sometimes effectively put that to one side because of the friendship - i.e. "don't like puffs but you're alright". Not saying that is great mind (and it's not the ideal reaction) but it isn't rejection, either, and certainly gives scope to work with. Was how it worked with a couple of gay blokes in my group of mates in our teens, anyway.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It was?
> 
> Well, I suppose 'often' is a qualification. I would dispute this statement and the truth of it.



yes, that's right. The only qualification/contextualisation I offered was the word 'often'. All the bits in red below are my imagination. twat.




LiamO said:


> In *some* ways (and *please don't take this the wrong way*) it was/is easier for non-whites than whites. *And before people get their knickers in a twist I better expand on that*.
> 
> 1. If you are from that area/estate then your being a Local often 'trumps' your skin colour/religion/sexuality/politics etc. 'He might be a nigger/taig/queer/commie... but he is OUR....'
> 
> ...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 5, 2012)

treelover said:


> Btw, what on earth has happened to the Indie web site? its all over the place...



I know, it's odd, isn't it - it's a shame, because the redesign is otherwise quite appealing on the eye. I did get in touch with them about it a few weeks ago but haven't heard back since the initial contact.


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## stethoscope (Jan 5, 2012)

past caring said:


> What I was getting at - and one of the "some ways" that Liam's post was pretty much correct, I'd say. i.e. how many black kids who experience(d) racism at school/the youth club/in their neighbourhood also go home to racist parents and wider family? White kids who come to the conclusion that racism is wrong may well have to deal with the fallout of how they reconcile that outlook with the views of some of their nearest and dearest. That isn't to say that racism is easier to deal with if you're black, of course, but then again, that wasn't what was said....
> 
> The homophobia thing is a bit different, though, I think - for one, there is at least the option of not coming out/pretending to conform. I do think that there's some element of truth in what Liam has said with this, though - not that someone who is gay will be entirely safe in an area because they are local, but that friends who are homophobic in general will sometimes effectively put that to one side because of the friendship - i.e. "don't like puffs but you're alright". Not saying that is great mind (and it's not the ideal reaction) but it isn't rejection, either, and certainly gives scope to work with. Was how it worked with a couple of gay blokes in my group of mates in our teens, anyway.



Good post pc. Certainly I and some of my friends have experienced the latter whilst growing up - having friends/acquaintances whom would certainly be homophobic, yet because of 'growing up with them', those friends and I were regarded as somehow seperated/'different'. And tbh, it isn't always until you get older and more comfortable/confident with say your sexuality, that you sometimes actually call out their behaviour - because as I certainly found, it was better to be friends with them than make enemies.


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## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

past caring said:


> What I was getting at - and one of the "some ways" that Liam's post was pretty much correct, I'd say. i.e. how many black kids who experience(d) racism at school/the youth club/in their neighbourhood also go home to racist parents and wider family? White kids who come to the conclusion that racism is wrong may well have to deal with the fallout of how they reconcile that outlook with the views of some of their nearest and dearest. That isn't to say that racism is easier to deal with if you're black, of course, but then again, that wasn't what was said....
> 
> The homophobia thing is a bit different, though, I think - for one, there is at least the option of not coming out/pretending to conform. I do think that there's some element of truth in what Liam has said with this, though - not that someone who is gay will be entirely safe in an area because they are local, but that friends who are homophobic in general will sometimes effectively put that to one side because of the friendship - i.e. "don't like puffs but you're alright". Not saying that is great mind (and it's not the ideal reaction) but it isn't rejection, either, and certainly gives scope to work with. Was how it worked with a couple of gay blokes in my group of mates in our teens, anyway.



beautifully summised PC...

btw, does this mean that you, VP, 39th step, hammerntongues, froggy, stephj etc who all kind of understood what I was saying (whether or not they agree with me is by the by) are all as stupid as me then? Maybe lbj could give us some classes.

I would really like to stay and discuss this but unfortunately I have used up my allotted time having been suckered once more by a posh liberal into arguing about stuff I didn't say rather than what I did. I will learn one day.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> yep the whole "*i hate pakis but you're all right*". i don't think it's true in every case though - anita desai wrote a very good book about her experiences growing up as an asian kid in such an environment and the fact that even though she was thought to be "all right" her experiences etc inevitably ended up pushing her apart from the people she was hanging around with. and the dilemmas that someone would face in such a situation - "you're all right, not like the others" are pretty similar to those of the anti-fash white kids tbh.


Yep. On a personal level, this has a lot of truth to it. I don't think it applies much, if at all, beyond that, though, to people you don't know or who you may only know by sight.


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## hammerntongues (Jan 5, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. On a personal level, this has a lot of truth to it. *I don't think it applies much, if at all, beyond that,* though, to people you don't know or who you may only know by sight.



what doesn`t apply beyond that ?


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> what doesn`t apply beyond that ?


The idea that being local may trump other factors - the homophobia of a homophobe or the racism of a racist. In terms of homophobia, the most common reaction of young gay people is probably as has been described here, to hide it - and thinking back to homophobic people I've known in the past, I think ostracism from the group/ beating you up could well have been their most likely reaction to finding out that one of their friends was gay, tbh. In terms of racism, it's only among people you know that the 'I hate blacks but you're alright' attitude applies.


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## butchersapron (Jan 5, 2012)

The attorney general is reviewing the sentences after a complaint.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 5, 2012)

past caring said:


> The homophobia thing is a bit different, though, I think - for one, there is at least the option of not coming out/pretending to conform. I do think that there's some element of truth in what Liam has said with this, though - not that someone who is gay will be entirely safe in an area because they are local, but that friends who are homophobic in general will sometimes effectively put that to one side because of the friendship - i.e. "don't like puffs but you're alright". Not saying that is great mind (and it's not the ideal reaction) but it isn't rejection, either, and certainly gives scope to work with. Was how it worked with a couple of gay blokes in my group of mates in our teens, anyway.



I used to live in a multi-storey estate. In my block there was an older fella, openly gay, very camp and almost too stereotypically a hairdresser. He drunk not in the gay pubs in town but in the local-rather dodgy to many-boozer with the folk he's known for years. He was well known and well liked, he was 'our puff'. This kinda banter went on for years I found, my best mates dad would always refer to him as 'Colin the puff', again not ideal as pc said, but within the confines of a rather grim estate without judgement and without any hate. At no point in his life was he or has he ever been abused, attacked, ridiculed or threatened in that scheme. This is a city where gay/homophobic attacks were noted and often brutally murderous... It's not to say that life was/is ideal for Colin but the scheme was without doubt a place where he always felt welcome and absolutely safe irrespective of who he was. Now, I don't doubt some of Colins mates there would baulk at big gay pride demos in the area or open displays of gay men being affectionate but as my best mate told me after Colin was in the pub one night when the gay pride demo was all over the press/tv a mate in the pub wondered what the hell he was doing there when he could be out enjoying himself....


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## Fedayn (Jan 5, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> The attorney general is reviewing the sentences after a complaint.



The complaint they were too lenient or not lenient enough?


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## butchersapron (Jan 5, 2012)

I strongly suspect the former but nothing certain  at this point really.


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## Lock&Light (Jan 5, 2012)

A "member of the public" has complained that the minimum time-to-serve is too lenient.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 5, 2012)

the attorney general reviewing the sentences on the complaint of one solitary member of the public?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 5, 2012)

Certainly I have known people in Bermondsey who hate everyone not from Bermondsey _more_ than they do hate black people, commies, gays etc.


----------



## maomao (Jan 5, 2012)

Guardian:

*Breaking news:*​
Attorney general to review whether sentences imposed on Stephen Lawrence's killers are too lenient. More details soon …


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 5, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> Wheres Norris Snr these days? still banged up? for someone who's cast a malignant shadow over the whole case I cant recall ever seen a pic of him anywhere.


nope - penniless, on benefits and living in a bedsit in kent. When he got put away, the police and customs managed to relieve him of all his cash and his 600k home.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 5, 2012)

maomao said:


> Guardian:
> 
> *Breaking news:*​
> Attorney general to review whether sentences imposed on Stephen Lawrence's killers are too lenient. More details soon …


 
I read somewhere that the sentences were the maximum permitted by the sentencing guidelines...


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 5, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> the attorney general reviewing the sentences on the complaint of one solitary member of the public?





> A spokeswoman for the attorney general's office said that sentences for certain crimes, including murder, could be reviewed if requested by members of the public.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/05/stephen-lawrence-murder-sentences-review



> If you are concerned that a sentence may be unduly lenient, it's important that you tell the Attorney General's office quickly, so he and his advisers have time to consider it before the deadline. (The 28 day limit is calendar days not working days, so weekends and holidays do count!).
> 
> All cases are considered personally by the Attorney General or his deputy, the Solicitor General.
> 
> ...



http://www.attorneygeneral.gov.uk/ULS/Pages/default.aspx


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## Streathamite (Jan 5, 2012)

8ball said:


> I read somewhere that the sentences were the maximum permitted by the sentencing guidelines...


not quite - they were, under the guidelines that pertained in 1993, not the ones that apply now. That's what a potential appeal is about now


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## 8ball (Jan 5, 2012)

Streathamite said:


> not quite - they were, under the guidelines that pertained in 1993, not the ones that apply now. That's what a potential appeal is about now



So was the case against these two started while the 1993 guidelines were in effect?

Not that I know whether it makes a difference - just that the stuff I read before would seem a bit disingenuous.


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## DarthSydodyas (Jan 5, 2012)

Wiki has an interesting article on this.   In particular, the reasoning behind the sentencing.



> The judge stated that the sentences reflected the fact that Dobson and Norris were juveniles at the time of the fatal stabbing, which took place before the Criminal Justice Act 2003; the starting point for the minimum term was therefore 12 years. The judge acknowledged this was "lower than some might expect".[12][15] A similar crime committed in 2011 by an adult would have justified a sentence with a starting point of 25 years for the minimum term.[46] Article 7 of the European Convention on Human Rights, incorporated into English law by the Human Rights Act 1998, forbids retrospective increases in sentences. Thus a person may not be given a sentence more severe than that which could have been imposed at the time of the crime.[14]


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## Orang Utan (Jan 5, 2012)

wasn't there a big fuss over michael howard attempting to retrospectively increase the sentences of jon venables and robert thompson?
there was concern (and rightly so) that a home secretary swayed by public opinion shouldn't be able to have an effect on notorious criminals' sentences.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 5, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> wasn't there a big fuss over michael howard attempting to retrospectively increase the sentences of jon venables and robert thompson?
> there was concern (and rightly so) that a home secretary swayed by public opinion shouldn't be able to have an effect on notorious criminals' sentences.


Yeah. tbh I think this challenge is a big mistake. They will rot for long enough inside. And if they continue to deny they did it, they'll be in there for a very long time anyway.


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## Gingerman (Jan 5, 2012)

Streathamite said:


> nope - penniless, on benefits and living in a bedsit in kent. When he got put away, the police and customs managed to relieve him of all his cash and his 600k home.


Anyone know where I can buy the world's smallest violin ?


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 5, 2012)

Would have missed this Indie article if Dave Cinzano hadn't posted the link earlier up.

It's pretty fucking sickening that members/associates of the Acourt gang got away with _all kinds_ of this sort of shit around that time and later 

For what small amount it's worth from me on Eltham. My friends (when new as a couple) lived in some housing asociation flats near the town centre about 10 to 15 years or so years ago and I visited them there at least 4 or 5 times. He was Glaswegian, she Australian, and both found the atmosphere round _some_ places in the town pretty unpleasant and unwelcoming to anyone 'different' or outsider (eg a bit alternative minded/looking, like them, and they were white). Although I only went to pubs there twice with them myself (can't remember which ones sorry), I can't say I saw or heard about much myself, in or out of the pubs, that contradicted their view. And they picked the less bad ones they said ...

I know more than enough personally about pubs across South London to know which ones I don't want to go in, simply from the atmosphere in the street outside. Scarcely welcoming in SE9 I thought ....

And I've drank in shedloads of pubs across Walworth, Rotherhithe, Bermondsey etc South London etc, with S London footy fans and all sorts (I was OK to most because I was 'only' Oxford!  ), and I wasn't always all that fussy either sometimes, just avoided the *very* worst ones.

I wish I could bloody well remember their names, but there were at least two pubs I was warned -- not just by my mates there, others too -- to avoid in Eltham, that looked to me (back then) from the outside at least, as bad or worse as any place I'd avoided elsewhere. Very much not about the beer this!
(at least not only  ).

I get more than a bit frustrated by the hint/suggestion that not liking the more thuggish/intimidating pubs, and not liking places (or parts of places) because of that, is somehow demonising or being prejudiced against everyone in that area, all members of the working classes there, etc.

FWIW as well, my friend did a lot of research into the local history of the area (going right back I mean) when he lived there and what he was able to tell me was pretty damned fascinating. So I do know that there's *much* more about Eltham than the Acourts' circle and like people, I also take the point that plenty of locals reported against people associated with them around that time.

But also at that time, they got away with shitloads of shit it seems, partly I suppose because of intimidation. And obviously Police corruption and incompetence combined.


----------



## newbie (Jan 5, 2012)

two sheds said:


> I'm not sure I'd agree they couldn't receive a fair trial because of the amount of publicity by the way. Yes it was a disgusting crime but the question is whether or not they did it which seems to me to be a wholely different question.
> 
> The Daily Mail article is different, though, but is also a difficult one. How do you balance the chance of prejudicing the trial against a protest against the police just letting racist offenders go free.



I read the Daily Star in a coffee shop today, as you do.  This article didn't surprise me particularly, but it illustrates the point I'm making.

"
_THREE prime suspects linked to the Stephen Lawrence murder case drive flash cars, wear designer clothes and enjoy mega-benders in pubs without appearing to have a single job between them._

_Luke Knight and brothers Neil and Jamie Acourt were not on trial with Gary Dobson and David Norris, but their names repeatedly cropped up in court. _

_while Dobson and Norris begin long sentences for the racist murder, the other three suspects enjoy a fun-filled and comfortable playboy lifestyle."_

It's in the same vein as many previous, across the news spectrum, directed at the two convicted as well as these three.  It's in keeping with views expressed in this thread and in casual conversation.  _Everybody knows they're guilty,_ it's simply a police failure, or corruption, that they're not banged up_._  That isn't a fair basis for the detached decision making that juries are supposed to do.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 5, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> Would have missed this Indie article if Dave Cinzano hadn't posted the link earlier up.


One of the blokes who wrote that is Satish Sekar who has worked doggedly on miscarriages of justice cases as an investigative journalist over many years. I haven't seen him for a really long time, but if he's got his teeth into this he will ferret out information with incredible tenacity. Great bloke, Satish.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 5, 2012)

Journalisted only throws up three articles in the past few years, all on the Cardiff Three:

http://journalisted.com/satish-sekar?allarticles=yes


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 5, 2012)

He's been involved in loads more than the Cardiff Three though. He's got more than a passing interest in forensic entomology. The background work he's done for people campaigning for justice is pretty impressive. I think he's published books too.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 6, 2012)

8ball said:


> So was the case against these two started while the 1993 guidelines were in effect?
> 
> Not that I know whether it makes a difference - just that the stuff I read before would seem a bit disingenuous.


No but that was when the crime was perpetrated


----------



## TopCat (Jan 6, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> He's been involved in loads more than the Cardiff Three though. He's got more than a passing interest in forensic entomology. The background work he's done for people campaigning for justice is pretty impressive. I think he's published books too.


He is a "top geezer".


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 6, 2012)

I wouldn't call him a geezer, exactly, he's a tad OCD-ish which makes him very thorough and diligent.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 7, 2012)

So, without wanting to start a new thread : Does anyone have any kind of low down on what Mr Knight and The Acourt brothers are up to right now?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 7, 2012)

I would hazard a guess that they are shitting themselves


----------



## Badgers (Jan 7, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:
			
		

> So, without wanting to start a new thread : Does anyone have any kind of low down on what Mr Knight and The Acourt brothers are up to right now?



I was in a cafe the other day and read a tabloid while waiting for rolls. They had detailed write ups on all of them.


----------



## thriller (Jan 7, 2012)

Badgers said:


> I was in a cafe the other day and read a tabloid while waiting for rolls. They had detailed write ups on all of them.



which paper was it?


----------



## thriller (Jan 7, 2012)

thriller said:


> which paper was it?



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...the-suspects-and-their-molls-115875-23680326/


----------



## thriller (Jan 7, 2012)

thriller said:


> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...the-suspects-and-their-molls-115875-23680326/



cheers


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 7, 2012)

Or the Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...awrence-murder-Still-swaggering-got-away.html


----------



## thriller (Jan 7, 2012)

yeah. that's a better one.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 7, 2012)

Mirror or Star. 

It was standard tabloid drivel


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> He's been involved in loads more than the Cardiff Three though. He's got more than a passing interest in forensic entomology. The background work he's done for people campaigning for justice is pretty impressive. I think he's published books too.


http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/...ry/forensic-sleuth/maggots-murders/index.html


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 8, 2012)

Re that Daily Mail article :



thriller said:


> yeah. that's a better one.



Got to have some respect for the DM for being so thoroughly investigative on that one. Stephen Wright (presumably he did all the research?) has managed to find out a lot! 

I read the Daily Mirror one too -- as tabloid 'exposes' go, I have to admit to finding them both well worth a read ...


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 8, 2012)

William of Walworth said:


> Got to have some respect for the DM for being so thoroughly investigative on that one. Stephen Wright (presumably he did all the research?) has managed to find out a lot!



The Daily Mail has been consistant on the Lawrence case from the beginning, I think (though might be imagining having read about it somewhere) that it's because Dacre knows Neville Lawrence, and knows they're a good family.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 8, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> The Daily Mail has been consistant on the Lawrence case from the beginning, I think (though might be imagining having read about it somewhere) that it's because Dacre knows Neville Lawrence, and knows they're a good family.


neville lawrence was, according to ms t, dacre's decorator


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 8, 2012)

Neville Lawrence decorated Dacre's house.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 8, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Neville Lawrence decorated Dacre's house.


got there first


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 8, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> The Daily Mail has been consistant on the Lawrence case from the beginning, I think (though might be imagining having read about it somewhere) that it's because Dacre knows Neville Lawrence, and knows they're a good family.


 
Yes, I've been aware (and surprised) about that for years. I normally can't stand the DM on any level, but on this ....


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jan 8, 2012)

Just goes to show that they CAN do a decent job when they try to, which makes their usual shite even worse because it's clearly intentional.


----------



## yardbird (Jan 8, 2012)

I can't get one thing out of my mind.
BBC reporter was asking in Eltham and I can not block out the image of the old bloke with only two bottom teeth saying they didn't do it and using the n-word


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 8, 2012)

That was Peckham, and I thought that vox pop was pretty unconscionable work by the BBC.

If you'd asked that bloke if he thought an alien invasion from Alpha Centura was likely he'd probably have said yes.


----------



## yardbird (Jan 8, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> That was Peckham, and I thought that vox pop was pretty unconscionable work by the BBC.
> 
> If you'd asked that bloke if he thought an alien invasion from Alpha Centura was likely he'd probably have said yes.



But the image of him and he meant what he said.
Peckham much the same then?
Was the pub that the beeb were thrown out of in Eltham?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 8, 2012)

yardbird said:


> But the image of him and he meant what he said.
> Peckham much the same then?


Peckham's not that bad really. It's just a bit dull.

Sounds like appalling editorial judgement to show that.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 8, 2012)

I think it's probably a good day for that old boy when he gets his shoes on the right way around. Very poor of the BBC.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 8, 2012)

Sorry, but this is getting to me too now. WTF did they show that for? Fucking arses.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 8, 2012)

IIRC, it was a news item; the theme of the piece was something like '20 year on... just below the surface ... racism still lurks'.

Cue doddery old duffer shuffling down the high street with no teeth looking confused.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 8, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> IIRC, it was a new item; the theme of the piece was something like '20 year on... just below the surface ... racism still lurks'.


And they interviewed how many people before they found him?

I hate that kind of deceptive crap. There are still racists around. Yes, we know. But especially somewhere like Peckhan, which tbh I don't think is a bad place, all that is doing is stirring. It's certainly not making any kind of point.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jan 8, 2012)

Peckham is nothing like Eltham. Why were they asking people in Peckham, anyway?


----------



## yardbird (Jan 8, 2012)

I've taken all this on board.

In my 'beautiful' Sussex village I'm surrounded by homophobic racists who assume you agree when they make an offhand racist remark.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 8, 2012)

i remember years ago watching a documentary made by some Irish 'historian' (with lots of spanish connections as I recall).

He interviewed some old boy outside a Bar where 'Black 47' were playing. The old fella was something of a dinosaur and conspiracy theorist. however he was an "Irish Republican" loon rather than a revisionist one and the film-maker wanted to portray US supporters of republicanism as ill-informed bigots. So he gets this old fella, who looked well-pissed as well as being more than a little 'confused' and gives him free reign. This then becomes the 'nutty voice of Noraid' or whatever - despite the fact that within 20 yards of the interview there were scores of people (not least the band themselves) who could have provided a perfectly rational and valid political argument. And despite the fact that all the others in the Bar probably regarded the old boy as absolutely barking too. Disingenuous cunts.

Sounds like the old boy mentioned here fits into the same category - and I sincerely hope these BBC wankers have not set him up for some personal attack.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 8, 2012)

All vox pop reports are like that. They are utterly worthless.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 8, 2012)

city filth and plastics trying to stop photographers on a public st outside the trial 
and an urbanite in the comments i believe
http://photothisandthat.co.uk/2012/01/07/police-censorship/


> Another photographer adds, ” It was a complete joke. The Police officers couldn’t decide which side of the street to make us stand on. One officer said we couldn’t stand under the scaffolding (open to the public) on kerb opposite because “the building company haven’t given you permission” – to stand on a public street? Then they insisted we stand about 50 yards away (to do a car shot) and when the car arrived one officer followed me across the street to make sure he blocked my view. I asked another officer if this was still a public street? She refused to answer”.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 8, 2012)

What possible interest could they have in doing that? Throwing their weight about or something?


----------



## ddraig (Jan 8, 2012)

teqniq said:


> What possible interest could they have in doing that? Throwing their weight about or something?


most likely
or been given a few notes to keep 'amateurs' out the way
fuck knows, hope some of them get compo and the plastics get a slap on the wrist/re-training


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 8, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> All vox pop reports are like that. They are utterly worthless.


 
I hate vox pops on TV. They're *designed* to gve prominence to bigots -- but by carefully highlighting the worst ones.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 9, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I wouldn't bother, it's not like Baron is anything but an open racist, anti-semitic homophobe. It's not an article from a paper or anything.


He was attempting to disrupt Kelvin Mackenzie's testimony at Levenson today... In support oh Michael stone (not the acclaimed
 performance artist).


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 9, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Just goes to show that they CAN do a decent job when they try to, which makes their usual shite even worse because it's clearly intentional.



Here's the funny thing: If you want a good story (if slightly scaremongering) on GM then the Mail is the first place to go alongside the Indie. It can be good on animal welfare too. It's politics are generally risible of course, but the Express is far worse and never gets the slagging for it, probably because it is seen as less influential.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 9, 2012)

London_Calling said:


> That was Peckham, and I thought that vox pop was pretty unconscionable work by the BBC.
> 
> If you'd asked that bloke if he thought an alien invasion from Alpha Centura was likely he'd probably have said yes.



There's more evidence for non terrestrial visitations than there is for that gang not having killed SL. It's unfair to put the UFO crowd in with that bunch of fantasist bigots.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 9, 2012)

A few pages back, there was some discussion on other racist murders (or believed to be racist by pretty much everyone except the plods) in the same sort of era in S London.  Transpontine has a piece published yesterday about it.


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 9, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> A few pages back, there was some discussion on other racist murders (or believed to be racist by pretty much everyone except the plods) in the same sort of era in S London. Transpontine has a piece published yesterday about it.



Good read.


----------



## Dowie (Jan 10, 2012)

I was wondering if anyone could clear this up - I was reading this today on the BBC website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16465430



> Mr Brooks, who is now a Liberal Democrat councillor in Lewisham, said of the police: "They have done a tremendous job, the second investigation, they've done a tremendous job in bringing those two to justice.
> "Yes,*we would like all six to be brought to justice* but at this moment in time they have done a tremendous job and they should be commended for the work and effort."
> But he added: "It's going to be very difficult to bring any charges against *the other four* involved."



Yet lots of the other press reports I've read recently seem to suggest there are 3 other suspects Neil, Acourt, Jamie Acourt and Luke Knight. Is there a 6th unknown person who was involved but has escaped all the media attention or something?


----------



## Belushi (Jan 10, 2012)

Dowie said:


> I was wondering if anyone could clear this up - I was reading this today on the BBC website:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16465430
> 
> Yet lots of the other press reports I've read recently seem to suggest there are 3 other suspects Neil, Acourt, Jamie Acourt and Luke Knight. Is there a 6th unknown person who was involved but has escaped all the media attention or something?



IIRC There was something about a blonde lad being there.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 10, 2012)

Fwiw, neither Duwayne Brooks or, through various witness statements, Macpherson were ever sure if it was five or six.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 10, 2012)

Danny Caetano and Charlie Martin were also in the Norris gang. Both are in prison now for trying to flay a rival gang member alive. 3 other men who were associated with the gang were also briefly investigated. 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/t...y-kill-him-we-may-never-find-out-1073045.html


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2012)

That's from 13 years ago, they've been out for some time now. And Caetano was inside at the time of the Lawrence killing - for a stabbing.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 10, 2012)

Nice lot!


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 10, 2012)

LiamO said:


> i remember years ago watching a documentary made by some Irish 'historian' (with lots of spanish connections as I recall).
> 
> He interviewed some old boy outside a Bar where 'Black 47' were playing. The old fella was something of a dinosaur and conspiracy theorist. however he was an "Irish Republican" loon rather than a revisionist one and the film-maker wanted to portray US supporters of republicanism as ill-informed bigots. So he gets this old fella, who looked well-pissed as well as being more than a little 'confused' and gives him free reign. This then becomes the 'nutty voice of Noraid' or whatever - despite the fact that within 20 yards of the interview there were scores of people (not least the band themselves) who could have provided a perfectly rational and valid political argument. And despite the fact that all the others in the Bar probably regarded the old boy as absolutely barking too. Disingenuous cunts.
> 
> Sounds like the old boy mentioned here fits into the same category - and I sincerely hope these BBC wankers have not set him up for some personal attack.


Reminds me of the Strabane old boy interview..


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 9, 2013)

Stephen Lawrence's brother lodges racism complaint against Met police



> The brother of Stephen Lawrence has launched a complaint against the Metropolitan police claiming he has been the victim of a sustained campaign of harassment after being stopped by officers 25 times.
> 
> Stuart Lawrence, whose brother was murdered in a racist attack nearly 20 years ago, said he believed he was being targeted by police while driving because of the colour of his skin. The teacher, 35, told the Daily Mail he had been repeatedly pulled over in his car over many years for "no apparent reason and without any justification".


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 9, 2013)

25 times?   I'm 35 also and drive a fair bit and I've never been pulled over by the police (except that time I was speeding).  25 times stinks.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 9, 2013)

A friend of mine was stopped 30+ times in the space of three months in 1994/1995 whilst driving around Woolwich/Eltham/Welling. He is of Turkish origin and the police kept stopping cos he looked 'well dodge' just for driving a ford fiesta while Turkish. Nothing has changed clearly. They have learnt nothing.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 9, 2013)

Yes, well this is the Met we're talking about here. The Met who shoot unarmed Brazilians, are responsible for re-employing an officer who had already allegedly beaten a schoolgirl around the head and called her family “African village people” and then went on to cause the death of a newspaper seller, and the Met where officers have tried to sell information to newspapers for personal gain.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

Report on allegations of police corruption (many and varied) around this case is being published in next few minutes.


----------



## Belushi (Mar 6, 2014)

I'll be interested to see what it says.  DB once had a fit on here when I said the reason the Met were so keen to put their hands up to institutional racism over the Lawrence case was because they were keen to cover up the stench of corruption.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

Two quick  responses from @lucymanning :

New report finds the original Macpherson report into Stephen Lawrence murder wasn't told about police corruption held by the Met.

&

The Stephen Lawrence Review says potential for a public inquiry to discover more may be limited due to chaotic records held by Met Police.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2014)

Oops thread already specifically on this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2014)

Belushi said:


> I'll be interested to see what it says.  DB once had a fit on here when I said the reason the Met were so keen to put their hands up to institutional racism over the Lawrence case was because they were keen to cover up the stench of corruption.


detective-boy had fits all the fucking time


----------



## teqniq (Mar 6, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The Stephen Lawrence Review says potential for a public inquiry to discover more may be limited due to chaotic records held by Met Police.



How convenient. Chaotic and 'missing' no doubt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2014)

teqniq said:


> How convenient. Chaotic and 'missing' no doubt.


all the more reason for a public inquiry into record keeping at the mps


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 9, 2014)

> *Exclusive: New evidence links the murders of Stephen Lawrence and a private investigator *
> Explosive new evidence linking the two darkest chapters in Scotland Yard's modern history can be revealed today by _The Independent on Sunday_, heaping fresh pressure on the position of the current Met Commissioner, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe.
> 
> Leaked documents reveal a police officer accused of corruption in the Stephen Lawrence case has also been closely linked to one of the prime suspects in the unsolved murder of Daniel Morgan, a private investigator found with an axe embedded in his skull in 1987.
> ...



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rence-and-a-private-investigator-9179104.html


----------



## xenon (Mar 9, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rence-and-a-private-investigator-9179104.html




I can't remember quite how TBH but this also has connections to the News of the World stuff. It was brought up in that mega thread.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 9, 2014)

xenon said:


> I can't remember quite how TBH but this also has connections to the News of the World stuff. It was brought up in that mega thread.



Daniel Morgan's partner in his private detective business was Jonathan Rees. Following his killing, local cop Sid Fillery - a friend and associate of Rees - was briefly on the murder team. He subsequently left the police and joined Rees in the detective agency, replacing Morgan.

That private detective agency, Southern Investigations, was used by News International for various tasks. Rees was at one point being paid £150,000 per year by NI.

Rees also shared a business address with Alex Marunchak (at various times a senior NI executive, the editor of the Irish _NOTW_, and a freelance Ukrainian translator for the police), who with _NOTW_ News Editor Greg Miskiw set up Abbeycover (which also shared Southern Investigations' address).

Rees was implicated in Marunchak's plot to hack into the computer of former British Army intelligence officer Ian Hurst AKA ‘Martin Ingram’ (in relation to the long-term, high level Provisional IRA mole ‘Stakeknife’).

Etc, etc, etc.

Search on the previous Daniel Morgan threads; Dave Courtney; Operation Nigeria; Untouchables by Michael Gillard & Laurie Flynn.


----------



## xenon (Mar 9, 2014)

Quite a nest of vipers.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 9, 2014)

You are being magnanimous to them or unkind to vipers.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 9, 2014)

Some useful links:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...rgan-tell-me-more.277842/page-2#post-11191799
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...uted-in-greenwich.277139/page-2#post-10289668
http://www.urban75.net/forums/search/30625337/?q="jonathan+rees"&t=post&o=date&c[thread]=277146
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...uption-in-the-80s-whats-changed-since.270752/
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/untouchables-michael-gillard-laurie-flynn.116408/
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...e-opening-of-stephen-lawrence-inquiry.290464/
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/ask-a-freemason.316215/page-50#post-12647487
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...olice-and-murdoch.258783/page-21#post-9543258


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 9, 2014)

The consistently-interesting Brown Moses has a blog post from his regular correspondent on the topic up today, taking into account the Ellison shitstorm:

http://brown-moses-hackgate.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/the-ellison-review-and-daniel-morgan.html


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 9, 2014)

Belushi said:


> the reason the Met were so keen to put their hands up to institutional racism over the Lawrence case was because they were keen to cover up the stench of corruption.



 You were bang on the money with that. South East Regional Crime squad seem to have essentially operated as gangsters in uniform. Absolutely sickening levels of corruption all through the met - the culture of cover up, distortion and lieing is absolutely endemic and institutionalised and has been for years. Confirms all the worst fears about the cops.  These cunts should behind bars.  


Also shows up Detective boy up for the shill he was all along.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 9, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> The consistently-interesting Brown Moses has a blog post from his regular correspondent on the topic up today, taking into account the Ellison shitstorm:
> 
> http://brown-moses-hackgate.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/the-ellison-review-and-daniel-morgan.html



Brown Moses' correspondent notes that the Ellison Review identified that whilst the original scoping document ‘Dark Side of the Moon’ still existed, the intelligence product and analysis that came out of the anti-corruption programme it led to, Operation Othona (which in turn led to the establishment of CIBIC), could not be found by MPS. (See Ellison Review part 1 pp106-111)

Roy Clark - whom readers of _Untouchables_ will remember well, having started out at Stokey during Jackpot before progressing to CO11 alongside Grieve, then setting up Othona, CIB3 etc - is said by Ellison to be stunned to hear of the apparent disappearance of this prime intell:



> I’d be shocked if it doesn’t exist... there would be no good reason to get rid of it... it was gold dust stuff. It was really gold dust... when I left it existed because there were still jobs sparking off of it.To the best of my recall, when I attended that debriefing [2004] it was still there then and the idea was not to wrap the thing up and put it away, because I would have been most vociferous if that was the idea and I am on record as saying that the failure of the police service is lack of long-term consistency... It was there not to be closed down, to roll on... How you can go to those lengths and spend all that money and it is not there, I am just amazed.



And guess where the finger starts pointing?



> [Clark] added that it might have “morphed” into something else, but should definitely still exist and that it had been left in the hands of Andy Hayman, Detective Superintendent Bob Quick, David Wood and John Yates.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Mar 10, 2014)

> *Stephen Lawrence exclusive: Links between 'corrupt' officer on investigation and racist murder gang were suppressed to protect Met chief*
> 
> Intelligence that linked a suspected corrupt police officer on the Stephen Lawrence murder investigation to the gangster father of one of the prime suspects was apparently suppressed to protect the then Metropolitan Police Commissioner.
> 
> ...


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-lawrence-murder-gang-suppressed-9180093.html


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 10, 2014)

Nice mention for our old friend Keith Hunter too - a near neighbour of a number of other noteworthy (ex) coppers, including short-tempered house husband Simon Harwood.


----------



## Batboy (Mar 10, 2014)

The met police having corrupt officers and those in senior position trying to cover up what goes on, why the fuck is anyone surprised?

As a separate burning personal issue I would like to know why taxpayers have to pay the pensions of those clearly dodgy cops, who choose to resign as opposed to being sacked for their dodgy conduct. This has been going on for years and is a convenient cover up statistically for the Metropolitan Police of the numbers of dodgy and corrupt officers who are/were in the police service.

I personally know of one such ex detective who is in prison for money laundering on behalf of organised crime gangs based in south east London and he still collects a pension paid for by the tax payer. At the time he resigned rather than be sacked as it protected his pension.

I'd bet my life that the officer in question in the Lawrence case is on a nice pension and will keep it.

Incidentally what happened to Detective boy?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 10, 2014)

my sister was asking why they were bringing this up again after 20 years and that everyone should just forget about it


----------



## ddraig (Mar 10, 2014)

i hope you replied something like "because that's how long it can sometimes take for evidence of the truth to come out when it is being hidden and resisted by those in positions of power"
and declassified papers etc


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 10, 2014)

Maybe we should have a new thread about corruption at the met? There is a lot of crossover between the lawrence, news international, spy cops and daniel morgan threads - with a lot of the same cops involved at beat level and right at the top. 

This is one area where something like urban is really useful - and its not something that the media seem too keen to do.  

Anyone with too much time on their hands want to pull the relevant bits together?


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## frogwoman (Mar 10, 2014)

ddraig said:


> i hope you replied something like "because that's how long it can sometimes take for evidence of the truth to come out when it is being hidden and resisted by those in positions of power"
> and declassified papers etc


 
yeah that's what i said,wasn't up for a big fight though


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