# Jamie's Ministry of Food



## susie12 (Oct 1, 2008)

Anyone watch this?  If you want to see the class system in action give it a go.  Natasha (2 kids, on benefits) said to him "I've sold all my jewellery" - Jamie "What do you mean?" The programme I would like to see would involve Jamie and his wife and kids living on what they would get on benefits.  Serve up salmon on that you tosser.


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

I think St. Jamie of Oliver's heart is in the right place, so I forgive him his fat-tongued cuntishness.  He does genuinely seem to have a passion for helping people to cook better.


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## Kanda (Oct 1, 2008)

Family spending £80 on shite junk food for their kids... these are the people you should be fucking raging about, not Jamie.

Fucking disgusting.


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## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

The fact he was supposed to be telling them all to cook healthily and that bit about obesity slightly ill at odds with the fact HE is FAT!


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## beeboo (Oct 1, 2008)

I think you've got to give him credit for trying...and I think it's something he's genuinely passionate about, rather than a big PR exercise.

But he's trying to take on something that's way bigger than people not knowing how to make a meatball, and least the programme emphasised that - he admitted himself to not being able to understand what Natasha was going through.

But it was very sad to see her so full of confidence and enthusiasm about getting some control over something in her life, and then see it all come crashing down.    Poor lass.


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

Ah -- but you should never trust a thin chef.


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## kyser_soze (Oct 1, 2008)

I haven't seen the show, but i did see the trailer where he asks a mum and daughter 'Don't you think there's something wrong that you don't know what boiling water looks like?'

And he's right.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2008)

Jamie is gigantic-tounged mockney twat, quite how he rose to prominence as some sort of authority and matters food is beyond me. I wish he and his 'joolth' would get on that vespa of his and drive, drive back into obscurity. That there would be pucka


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

They were friends, not a mum and daughter!

To be fair to her, it was actually the difference between "simmering" and "boiling" that she was querying, which is a touch more understandable if you have never cooked.


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## Tank Girl (Oct 1, 2008)

I only caught a bit of it - and while I know how hard it is to be a single mum on benefits (been there), she said how she'd throw her kid a bag of crisps when she said she was hungry. she admitted that it was because it was easy and meant she didn't have to cook  that upset me. as it did her


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## STFC (Oct 1, 2008)

susie12 said:


> Anyone watch this?  If you want to see the class system in action give it a go.  Natasha (2 kids, on benefits) said to him "I've sold all my jewellery" - Jamie "What do you mean?" The programme I would like to see would involve Jamie and his wife and kids living on what they would get on benefits.  Serve up salmon on that you tosser.



Is good food only for the middle classes then?

She hadn't quite sold all of her jewellery from what I could see, she was still wearing plenty. Fair play to her for giving it a go though, it seemed like she really wanted to do right by her family and Jamie Oliver was sympathetic to her situation.

And I bet he and his family would eat much better than hers did on £80 a week. I've never quite got my head round why people with no money live on takeaways, which are often more expensive than home cooked food. How did low income families ever get by before there was a kebab shop on every corner?


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## Kanda (Oct 1, 2008)

susie12 said:


> The programme I would like to see would involve Jamie and his wife and kids living on what they would get on benefits.



I'd like to see that too. I hate the twat but I'd love more to see people shut the fuck up when he actually manages too. He has a passion for cooking, he could probably do it easily, rather than not having a passion and shoving turkey twizzlers under his kids noses.


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## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

He can come across as a bit of a knob but I believe he is doing something good here, as he was with the School Dinners gig.


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## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

STFC said:


> How did low income families ever get by before there was a kebab shop on every corner?


They went to a big pub like in _Oliver!_ (the Dickensian musical, not the chef) and ate stew from a big pot.


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## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

To be fair, I'd find it hard to keep a straight, non-judgmental face if somebody told me that they spent £70 of their £80 benefit on takaways nearly every night. You could certainly buy a little salmon with that.

The class thing gets on my tits as well. Certainly there are some compelling reason why Brits may not have learnt to cook well, but the excuse wears thin after a while. Things have changed massively foodwise in the space of a generation or two - a melting pot of cultures that's seen Tikka masala overtake boiled mince in the nation's hearts and seen plenty of folks cook well on the breadline. Past a certain point, not being able to cook at all is about ignorance, laziness and hopelessness.


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## kyser_soze (Oct 1, 2008)

Hey, at least it's someone doing something about the amount of shite we eat.



> I'd like to see that too. I hate the twat but I'd love more to see people shut the fuck up when he actually manages too. He has a passion for cooking, he could probably do it easily, rather than not having a passion and shoving turkey twizzlers under his kids noses.



Innit? My Ma and/or Nan used to do homecooked stuff when I was a nipper and they were on bens and I ate OK. I also know a few peeps on bens who cook their food (as in prepare, cook not 'open packet' cook or 'go to the chippy' cook) and they eat well - not huge amounts, but good food.


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Family spending £80 on shite junk food for their kids... these are the people you should be fucking raging about, not Jamie.
> 
> Fucking disgusting.





This.

It's nice to see that my taxes are going to fund the Kebab houses.

thoes two girls were just lazy chav cunts.


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## Tank Girl (Oct 1, 2008)

you're such a charming person.


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

Oh good grief.


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## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Family spending £80 on shite junk food for their kids... these are the people you should be fucking raging about, not Jamie.
> 
> Fucking disgusting.


 
Innit. Ten quid a night on takeaways and she's complaining she couldn't afford to feed her family any better. Utter rubbish.

I actually quite liked Jaimie's honesty - he admitted he couldn't understand their situation but didn't patronise them. It IS disgraceful that she'd never, ever cooked her children a meal. Cheesy chips and kebabs every night and doesn't even know how to turn the oven on. That's nothing to do with being poor or working class.


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## STFC (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> He can come across as a bit of a knob but I believe he is doing something good here, as he was with the School Dinners gig.



He is a knob and always has been, but he seems to be a decent person. I admire him for trying to educate the nation and share his passion for good food. It certainly beats watching him zipping round on his scooter gathering ingredients to cook a 'pukka' meal for his similarly poncey mates in his oh-so trendy flat, anyway.


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## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

STFC said:


> He is a knob and always has been, but he seems to be a decent person. I admire him for trying to educate the nation and share his passion for good food. It certainly beats watching him zipping round on his scooter gathering ingredients to cook a 'pukka' meal for his similarly poncey mates in his oh-so trendy flat, anyway.


And then spend the evening go-karting to the contemporary sounds of Toploader 

But he's redeemed himself more than somewhat since those black days.


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## beeboo (Oct 1, 2008)

I think he's setting the bar too high right now...people are going to feel they've failed if they can't cook meatballs from scratch for dinner.  He was surprised that people thought half an hour to make dinner was a long time...not many working mums are going to be able to give half an hour of undivided attention to cooking in the evening.

There's plenty of cheap, easy, shove-it-in-the-oven-and-forget-about-it dinners he could be teaching them.  

Will be interesting to see how this progresses, given that 1 episode in he's almost had to abandon the plan.


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## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

I did note that the one woman's boyfriend worked in the cafe though, so I think perhaps she gets her kebabs and cheesy chips for free but can't admit it because he'd get the sack.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

susie12 said:


> Anyone watch this?  If you want to see the class system in action give it a go.  Natasha (2 kids, on benefits) said to him "I've sold all my jewellery" - Jamie "What do you mean?"


Explain please


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## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> This.
> 
> It's nice to see that my taxes are going to fund the Kebab houses.
> 
> thoes two girls were just lazy chav cunts.


 
Nah they might be my taxes, in case which case they're welcome to them if it means people like you don't get on your high horse. 

Good programme, lets see how it pans out. 

Also could they not give people food vouchers who couldn't afford the ingredients, I really don't know how they think people can afford to buy all the stuff when they're on benefits. 



Left Turn Clyde said:


> Explain please




Never been to a pawnbrokers?


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## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> This.
> 
> It's nice to see that my taxes are going to fund the Kebab houses.
> 
> thoes two girls were just lazy chav cunts.


You are an unpleasant individual, aren't you?


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## kained&able (Oct 1, 2008)

Masde his money and now trying to do some good. I applaud, he is a not quite twattish version of bono.


dave


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## Chairman Meow (Oct 1, 2008)

I thought it was a really good premise for a programme, and I tried to watch it,i really did. However I find that twat JO so revolting to watch, and fuck me, was he patronising! So I just wish it was someone ( anyone) else presenting, because watching the fat tongued mockney twat just brings me out in hives.


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

Everybody stop saying kebabs, because it is confusing the fuck out of me.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

Why are people saying 'he's a cunt, but I like him'?
Why do people dislike him, but begrudgingly respect him?


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## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> Why are people saying 'he's a cunt, but I like him'?
> Why do people dislike him, but begrudgingly respect him?


 
It is possible to find someone annoying yet like what they do.


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## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

beeboo said:


> He was surprised that people thought half an hour to make dinner was a long time...not many working mums are going to be able to give half an hour of undivided attention to cooking in the evening.


My mum somehow managed to cook dinner with two kids in the house and my dad at work. I am sure history could provide many other examples of this feat.


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> Why are people saying 'he's a cunt, but I like him'?
> Why do people dislike him, but begrudgingly respect him?


His mannerisms and general personality are incredibly grating.  But he seems to genuinely care about getting people to cook properly, for which I salute him and forgive him his personality defects.

Not so hard to understand, surely?


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## STFC (Oct 1, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> Explain please



In a nutshell: Jamie Oliver has got a few quid so he's fair game for a bit of class-based bashing.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> Never been to a pawnbrokers?



I didn't see the programme, but why is Oliver confused? Cos she had jewelry to sell in the first place or cos he doesn't understand why people might have to sell it?


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> My mum somehow managed to cook dinner with two kids in the house and my dad at work. I am sure history could provide many other examples of this feat.


It's a frightening thought, certainly.


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

Tank Girl said:


> you're such a charming person.



Just calling it as I see it.


a cheap tin of tomatoes in sainsburys is 21p.

Mince costs NOTHING.

you can get massive bags of pasta and rice in asda for really cheap.

Chicken livers and 99p for half a fucking kilo!

But instead... she chooses to spend £10 a night on dogmenat kebabs from lets face it... my money.  And expects sympahy.

She can fuck right off.

She can't say she doesn't have the time cos she doesn't work.  and the money excuse is just bullshit.


Lazy.

I've been freinds with pepole like her and the thing about them is that they can ALWAYS find blame and excuses.  Never thier fault.  Blah Blah Blah.  I@m not freinds with them anymore cos none of them actualy realise that the problem is them.  

FUck em. And thier ilk.


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## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> Also could they not give people food vouchers who couldn't afford the ingredients, I really don't know how they think people can afford to buy all the stuff when they're on benefits.


Because cooking your own is vastly, absurdly cheaper than kebabs and other shit takeaway food.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

kabbes said:


> His mannerisms and general personality are incredibly grating.  But he seems to genuinely care about getting people to cook properly, for which I salute him and forgive him his personality defects.
> 
> Not so hard to understand, surely?



I've always found him to an affable young chap with an endearing and idicosyncratic turn of phrase.


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## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> I didn't see the programme, but why is Oliver confused? Cos she had jewelry to sell in the first place or cos he doesn't understand why people might have to sell it?


 
Neither. She said she got rid of her jewellery, he didn't understand what she meant, so she clarified. That was it. Oliver's not an idiot, he has heard of people pawning stuff before.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Just calling it as I see it.
> 
> 
> a cheap tin of tomatoes in sainsburys is 21p.
> ...



Their ilk


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## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> Innit. Ten quid a night on takeaways and she's complaining she couldn't afford to feed her family any better. Utter rubbish.
> 
> I actually quite liked Jaimie's honesty - he admitted he couldn't understand their situation but didn't patronise them. It IS disgraceful that she'd never, ever cooked her children a meal. Cheesy chips and kebabs every night and doesn't even know how to turn the oven on. That's nothing to do with being poor or working class.



That's a little patronising too. She's obviously severely in debt and has been raised with little appreciation or knowledge of food - in many ways she's taking the path of least resistance and the one she's most familiar with. You can get a lot of fried chicken with £2, a far less daunting prospect than learning what to do with more expensive seeming veg.

Folks take it for granted that people are raised around homecooked food and the idea of family dinners gathered around a table. In fact that's a fairly recent regal 'invention' that the middle classes aspired to by all accounts. Britain's never been particularly good at putting food at the centre of the home ime - compare it to other countries where the door's always open and a pot of homecooked food for all always on.

When I went to University I was shocked by just how little many people knew about food. And these were mainly middle class folks with more settled families in the main, their learning taking place with peers at Uni. Many trapped in the takeaway cycle don't have that opportunity to learn with others, nor the motivation or willingness to spend money learning cooking. Food's massively important to me, but I'm not going to waggle fingers at those who don't share the same priorities. If you can't cook, that takeaway offers a depressing satisfying high fat meal for seemingly little.


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## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> My mum somehow managed to cook dinner with two kids in the house and my dad at work. I am sure history could provide many other examples of this feat.


 
Yeh but the point is 'we' aren't shown how to cook anymore, and then 'we' have kids and don't know how to cook for them or else just say 'Id on't like cooking' like it's ok, when really it's not ok to feed your kids shit food. All parents know this, it's just easier to ignore it, or you fee lyou can't cook healthily on a budget such a s benefits.



Left Turn Clyde said:


> I didn't see the programme, but why is Oliver confused? Cos she had jewelry to sell in the first place or cos he doesn't understand why people might have to sell it?


 
He's from a privileged background, he lives in a different world to the rest of us.


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## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Just calling it as I see it.
> 
> 
> a cheap tin of tomatoes in sainsburys is 21p.
> ...


You have some reasonable points to make but unfortunately, like a decent steak that has been overcooked and then slathered in poo, they are lost to us due to your misanthropy and ignorance of the wider social context of the decline of the working class.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> That's a little patronising too. She's obviously severely in debt and has been raised with little appreciation or knowledge of food - in many ways she's taking the path of least resistance and the one she's most familiar with. You can get a lot of fried chicken with £2, a far less daunting prospect than learning what to do with more expensive seeming veg.
> 
> Folks take it for granted that people are raised around homecooked food and the idea of family dinners gathered around a table. In fact that's a fairly recent regal 'invention' that the middle classes aspired to by all accounts. Britain's never been particularly good at putting food at the centre of the home ime - compare it to other countries where the door's always open and a pot of homecooked food for all always on.
> 
> When I went to University I was shocked by just how little many people knew about food. And these were mainly middle class folks with more settled families in the main, their learning taking place there. Many trapped in the takeaway cycle don't have that opportunity to learn with others, nor the motivation or willingness to spend money learning cooking. Food's massively important to me, but I'm not going to waggle fingers at those who don't share the same priorities. If you can't cook, that takeaway offers a depressing satisfying high fat meal for seemingly little.



Spot on!


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## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Just calling it as I see it.


 
Says more about you than them though.


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## STFC (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Mice costs NOTHING.



I know they were northerners, but expecting them to catch rodents to eat is a bit much don't you think?


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## Chairman Meow (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Mice costs NOTHING.


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## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> You have some reasonable points to make but unfortunately, like a decent steak that has been overcooked and then slathered in poo, they are lost to us due to your misanthropy and ignorance of the wider social context of the decline of the working class.


 

Obvious to spot the privileged from their posts innit?


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## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> He's from a privileged background, he lives in a different world to the rest of us.



.

I am surpised though, being from an ignorant middle-class background myself, at why someone on benefits would have jewelry to pawn in the first place. 
But I should be the last to lecture people on how to manage their money


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## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> Yeh but the point is 'we' aren't shown how to cook anymore, and then 'we' have kids and don't know how to cook for them or else just say 'Id on't like cooking' like it's ok, when really it's not ok to feed your kids shit food. All parents know this, it's just easier to ignore it, or you fee lyou can't cook healthily on a budget such a s benefits.


This is true, but the issue I was taking, um, issue with was that the woman couldn't be reasonably expected to find 30 minutes in which to make dinner.


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> You have some reasonable points to make but unfortunately, like a decent steak that has been overcooked and then slathered in poo, they are lost to us due to your misanthropy and ignorance of the wider social context of the decline of the working class.


I have become lost in your metaphor.  Why is a poo-slathered steak part of the wider misanthropic working class again?


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## N_igma (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Just calling it as I see it.
> 
> 
> a cheap tin of tomatoes in sainsburys is 21p.
> ...



Erm.. the whole point of the show is to get people from working class areas to cook cheaply and healthily. There are plenty of middle class types who eat out 2 to 3 nights a week, spending £40+ in a restaurant. Are they lazy cunts devoid of sympathy too? Just because these people are on benefits means they are fair game for a bit of bashing? You come across as a very bitter person imo.

As for Jamie, he's kind of like Gordon Ramsey, lots of people hate him but there's something endearing about him too. I personally think him and Gordon are great and love watching their programs.


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## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> .
> 
> I am surpised though, being from an ignorant middle-class background myself, at why someone on benefits would have jewelry to pawn in the first place.
> But I should be the last to lecture people on how to manage their money


 
Put all your money in gold so you can pawn in when you're skint, it works like a very expensive bank loan


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## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> The fact he was supposed to be telling them all to cook healthily and that bit about obesity slightly ill at odds with the fact HE is FAT!




Shit, that means I'm fat!


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## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> I am surpised though, being from an ignorant middle-class background myself, at why someone on benefits would have jewelry to pawn in the first place.
> But I should be the last to lecture people on how to manage their money


Let's not mention her wasting money on cigarettes.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> Put all your money in gold so you can pawn in when you're skint, it works like a very expensive bank loan



But if you're on benefits, surely you have no spare money for gold in the first place?


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## kyser_soze (Oct 1, 2008)

Fuck that - I've lived in poverty before and still eaten well - you have to spend some time shopping, finding bargains (and don't tell me that someone who's unemployed doesn't have timeto do either). Tara's point about cooking ignorance is a _reason_ but not an excuse.


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## kained&able (Oct 1, 2008)

Does elizebeth duke count as gold???


dave


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## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

kabbes said:


> I have become lost in your metaphor.  Why is a poo-slathered steak part of the wider misanthropic working class again?


Shut up and eat your kebabs.


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> This is true, but the issue I was taking, um, issue with was that the woman couldn't be reasonably expected to find 30 minutes in which to make dinner.


Remember, though, that it was St. Jamie that raised the "30 minutes" illusion.  In point of fact, it generally takes a fair bit longer than this to make a meal from scratch.

More pertinently, Ol' JO was saying it not in the context of making a meal but that of teaching other people to make meals.  It would certainly take more than 30 minutes out of your evening to do that.  In short, he was tilting at straw men.


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## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> Let's not mention her wasting money on cigarettes.



Oh come on. When life's miserable in the main, people often turn to solace in booze or tobacco. I can understand that.


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## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> This is true, but the issue I was taking, um, issue with was that the woman couldn't be reasonably expected to find 30 minutes in which to make dinner.


 
Perhaps she doesn't manage her time very well, or hasn't been shown to.



Left Turn Clyde said:


> But if you're on benefits, surely you have no spare money for gold in the first place?


 
don't be naiive!!!


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> Obvious to spot the privileged from their posts innit?


Expand, please.


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## beeboo (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> Neither. She said she got rid of her jewellery, he didn't understand what she meant, so she clarified. That was it. Oliver's not an idiot, he has heard of people pawning stuff before.



It's kind of embarassing I remember this, but I think the conversation went:

Her: "I've sold all my jewellery"
Him: "You've had to pawn stuff?"
....
Him: "I'm not saying I understand [what you're going through] because to be honest...I don't".


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## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> That's a little patronising too. She's obviously severely in debt and has been raised with little appreciation or knowledge of food - in many ways she's taking the path of least resistance and the one she's most familiar with. You can get a lot of fried chicken with £2, a far less daunting prospect than learning what to do with more expensive seeming veg.
> 
> Folks take it for granted that people are raised around homecooked food and the idea of family dinners gathered around a table. In fact that's a fairly recent regal 'invention' that the middle classes aspired to by all accounts. Britain's never been particularly good at putting food at the centre of the home ime - compare it to other countries where the door's always open and a pot of homecooked food for all always on.
> 
> When I went to University I was shocked by just how little many people knew about food. And these were mainly middle class folks with more settled families in the main, their learning taking place with peers at Uni. Many trapped in the takeaway cycle don't have that opportunity to learn with others, nor the motivation or willingness to spend money learning cooking. Food's massively important to me, but I'm not going to waggle fingers at those who don't share the same priorities. If you can't cook, that takeaway offers a depressing satisfying high fat meal for seemingly little.


 
I wasn't taught how to cook and we never sat round a table for meals. I knew fuck all about cooking when I went to university. But I learned. By myself.  It's not like cooking is a secret only the middle classes know. Trapped in a take-away cycle? What's that then? "I had had a take-away yesterday. Oh no. Now I have to have another one today." All you have to do is buy a bag of pasta and a tin of tomatoes. To talk about being "trapped" is patronising, ime. You don't have to care about food to not eat kebabs every night. Make a sandwich.


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## Griff (Oct 1, 2008)

*subscribes to Jamie Oliver/chav/Elizabeth Duke thread*


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## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Expand, please.


 

Why I think it's quite obvious what side of the fence fabriclive sit's on


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

Can we all just agree at this point to replace the word "kebabs" with "sub-prime meat product"?


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## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

Not everyone cares about food though - it's just fuel for some.


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## starfish2000 (Oct 1, 2008)

I love the way he goes to a Northern Town...thus reinforcing the stereotypes and cultural Supremacy that people in the South East have over anyone further up than the Watford Gap. Oh look theres some poor Blighter eating a Kebab darling how awful....isnt there voice funny. I'm from Derby and I met a bloke in London once who thought "Kes" was set there.

Theres plenty of people not eating right in Brighton or Camden Jamie...

Whats he gonna do next Black up and cook Creole?


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## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

*sub-prime meat product* raises a good point.


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## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

starfish2000 said:


> I love the way he goes to a Northern Town...thus reinforcing the stereotypes and cultural Supremacy that people in the South East have over anyone further up than the Watford Gap. Oh look theres some poor Blighter eating a Kebab darling how awful....isnt there voice funny. I'm from Derby and I met a bloke in London once who thought "Kes" was set there.
> 
> Theres plenty of people not eating right in Brighton or Camden Jamie...
> 
> Whats he gonna do next Black up and cook Creole?


 

In fairness is there not more unemployment/deprivation/people on benefits in the north than in the south?


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## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> Fuck that - I've lived in poverty before and still eaten well - you have to spend some time shopping, finding bargains (and don't tell me that someone who's unemployed doesn't have timeto do either). Tara's point about cooking ignorance is a _reason_ but not an excuse.



Yeah, but your mum was obviously a good one. As was mine. She also speaks with a Trevor McDonald West Indian accent and believed entirely in the received idea of polite sit-down family dinners, as aspirational as the Jones' next door could be.

I've met people at Uni who came from settled homes who couldn't cook pasta (didn't realise the pan needed water) and thought cream only came out of cans. And they were raised around family meals and homecooking - other folks I knew never saw their father or mother in the kitchen, let alone had the slightest idea how to cook

The lack of culinary knowledge is  alien to me, particularly with my food and cook-up obsessed, family. And yes, as I've said earlier, there's only so much you can excuse before you start to think of it as ignorance, stupidity and laziness. But I can understand how the situation comes about.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> Why I think it's quite obvious what side of the fence fabriclive sit's on


I see what you're saying, but you're attacking her by smearing everybody that isn't underprivileged, which seems a little harsh.  I'd guess that I'm at least as privileged as fabriclive but you don't see me being an odious twat.  At least, not about this subject.  I reserve the right to be as odious a twat as I want about other things.  Can you not just call her a cunt and leave it at that?


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

FBL's a bloke.


----------



## beeboo (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> This is true, but the issue I was taking, um, issue with was that the woman couldn't be reasonably expected to find 30 minutes in which to make dinner.



If I were a working mum, I'm sure there'd be other reasonable calls on my time (spending time with the kids, chores, bills etc) that I may want to prioritise above spending 30 minutes entirely on cooking, when I can easily get some kind of dinner on the table in 5.

What I was saying is that I think he should be aiming to get people to do something less complex.  Spending half an hour making meatballs is a bit of a luxury.

Last night I made roast chicken, roast potatoes and veggies - 5 mins chopping stuff, whacked it in the oven, went out of the house for an hour, came back and threw it on a couple of plates.  Ta-da, roast dinner with about 10 minutes total time in the kitchen.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> To be fair, I'd find it hard to keep a straight, non-judgmental face if somebody told me that they spent £70 of their £80 benefit on takaways nearly every night. You could certainly buy a little salmon with that.
> 
> The class thing gets on my tits as well. Certainly there are some compelling reason why Brits may not have learnt to cook well, but the excuse wears thin after a while. Things have changed massively foodwise in the space of a generation or two - a melting pot of cultures that's seen Tikka masala overtake boiled mince in the nation's hearts and seen plenty of folks cook well on the breadline. Past a certain point, not being able to cook at all is about ignorance, laziness and hopelessness.




Round where I live there are a tonne (and I mean a tonne) of dirt cheap takeaways of dubious merit. It actually can be cheaper ringing one of them (esp if it's just for 1-2 people) than doing a meal from scratch. Depressing, but true.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> I wasn't taught how to cook and we never sat round a table for meals. I knew fuck all about cooking when I went to university. But I learned. By myself.  It's not like cooking is a secret only the middle classes know. Trapped in a take-away cycle? What's that then? "I had had a take-away yesterday. Oh no. Now I have to have another one today." All you have to do is buy a bag of pasta and a tin of tomatoes. To talk about being "trapped" is patronising, ime. You don't have to care about food to not eat kebabs every night. Make a sandwich.



Yes, but I'm guessing your family had a modicom of stability and you had the chance of living with other types of people at Uni. Not everyone has that advantage - some never have seen their family eat anything other than takeaways or convenience food. And to be brutal, buying a frozen lasagna from the overpriced convenience store is hardly much better or cheaper than something from the takeaway.

Who says they eat kebabs every night? There's the curryhouse, the chicken shop and the fish n chippy for a start. And to make a sandwich you'd have to buy the bread and filling - you could buy a takeway for less than the price of a loaf these days.

It's not my style in the slightest - I love my food and taught myself too- but there are a lot of oversimplifications going around.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> This.
> 
> It's nice to see that my taxes are going to fund the Kebab houses.
> 
> thoes two girls were just lazy chav cunts.



'my taxes'

fuck off to the daily mail boards you ignorant twunt


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> FBL's a bloke.


Not as I recall


----------



## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

kabbes said:


> I see what you're saying, but you're attacking her by smearing everybody that isn't underprivileged, which seems a little harsh. I'd guess that I'm at least as privileged as fabriclive but you don't see me being an odious twat. At least, not about this subject. I reserve the right to be as odious a twat as I want about other things. Can you not just call her a cunt and leave it at that?


 
No I'm not. And cunt isn't hlf as effective. 



missfran said:


> FBL's a bloke.


 
I've met her, I swear


----------



## Kanda (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> FBL's a bloke.



Incorrect.


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

> Yes, but I'm guessing your family had a modicom of stability and you had the chance of living with other types of people at Uni. Not everyone has that advantage - some never have seen their family eat anything other than takeaways or convenience food. And to be brutal, buying a frozen lasagna from the overpriced convenience store is hardly much better or cheaper than something from the takeaway.
> 
> Who says they eat kebabs every night? There's the curryhouse, the chicken shop and the fish n chippy for a start. And to make a sandwich you'd have to buy the bread and filling - you could buy a takeway for less than the price of a loaf these days.
> 
> It's not my style in the slightest - I love my food and taught myself too- but there are a lot of oversimplifications going around.



You know very well a loaf of bread and filling, or a bag of pasta and a jar of pesto, is not going to cost £10, which is what the woman said she spent every day on take-aways. And it's going to last you longer than one take-away. She is not trapped, she does not HAVE to have take-aways, she can teach herself just like you and I did. Why wouldn't she be able to?


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

Oh. I thought FBL was a bloke. I was wrong. Sorry about that.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Round where I live there are a tonne (and I mean a tonne) of dirt cheap takeaways of dubious merit. It actually can be cheaper ringing one of them (esp if it's just for 1-2 people) than doing a meal from scratch. Depressing, but true.



You do realise I live in South London don't you, where you can't walk two corners without encountering a low priced fried chicken shop



I'd agree with you in terms of cost. I can buy 6 wings, chips and a can of drink for £1.50 - £2.00. I could barely buy the chicken for that at supermarket prices, even at the value ranges.

Now I can certainly cook something tastier and more nutritous for much cheaper using pulses, bulk bought rice/meat and some well selected veg, but that takes some knowledge and confidence, especially if you haven't eaten that type of food yourself before. There are also barriers to entering the cooking world - if you have no spices or decent pans, then the cost of those plus ingredients seems prohibitive.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> Their ilk



.. yeah.... people like them.... their ilk.



there isn't just one person that behaves in this way - I know at least 10.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> FBL's a bloke.





Left Turn Clyde said:


> Not as I recall





zenie said:


> I've met her, I swear





Kanda said:


> Incorrect.


In your FACE, Fran.  

In.  Your.  Face.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> Why wouldn't she be able to?



Can't be arsed???


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> You know very well a loaf of bread and filling, or a bag of pasta and a jar of pesto, is not going to cost £10, which is what the woman said she spent every day on take-aways. And it's going to last you longer than one take-away. She is not trapped, she does not HAVE to have take-aways, she can teach herself just like you and I did. Why wouldn't she be able to?



Culture. Fear of the new. Capitalism. Lazyness.

Take your pick. Don't forget, you aren't allowed to be judgemental in this sort of situation because she's poor and unemployed.

(I completely agree BTW, and I'm a bad cook...)


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> FBL's a bloke.



Girl.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> Not everyone cares about food though - it's just fuel for some.



Sadly this is true.  Cooking is one of my passions, and I struggle to understand some people's attitude to food.  To be scared of the kitchen or not know where to start is understandable but to not be bothered is frankly depressing.  I see the same thing in Jamie, he just can't understand other's attitude to cookery and food in general.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> You do realise I live in South London don't you, where you can't walk two corners without encountering a low priced fried chicken shop
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It really makes you wonder about the quality of the meat they're using. 

That's why if I want my kids to have chicken I prefer to have done it myself.

Some of the recipes I've wanted to try have been put off by ingredients I can't get at my local supermarket (no green grocers here)


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

Just to point out what should be obvious but is just the kind of thing that gets lost in the poorly articulated world of internet arguing, I don't think anyone on this thread, with perhaps one exception, is actually judging the people featured (or those in the same situation) for not being able to cook. It is perfectly understandable why this rather odd phenomenon has occurred, but none of that excuses them from addressing the problem when they are given the opportunity to, like when a sodding chef comes round your house and shows you what to do.

What is truly disgraceful is not the families that find themselves in these circumstances but the social and economic background that has allowed it to happen.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> 'my taxes'
> 
> fuck off to the daily mail boards you ignorant twunt




Personally,  Id ratehr see money that I give to the governmets given to people in genuine need of it.  People with disabilites,  people that need to heat themselves,  people that are FAR more deserving of it.


I'm not againts taxes at all.  Saxes server a really good decent purpose.  but these lazy fuckwits piss me right off.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 1, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> Don't forget, you aren't allowed to be judgemental in this sort of situation because she's poor and unemployed.


----------



## Tank Girl (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> FBL's a bloke.


you sure, I'm sure I've seen pics of her with pink hair. and she likes gypsy skirts


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> You know very well a loaf of bread and filling, or a bag of pasta and a jar of pesto, is not going to cost £10, which is what the woman said she spent every day on take-aways. And it's going to last you longer than one take-away. She is not trapped, she does not HAVE to have take-aways, she can teach herself just like you and I did. Why wouldn't she be able to?


Oh, I think that there is a culture around cooking and eating properly and if you are outside that culture there is a barrier to entering it.  Not an insurmountable barrier by any means, but if you have low self-esteem, have always struggled with learning things, can't afford any slip ups at all and have no support mechanism if things go wrong, I can see how the barrier could _seem_ insurmountable.

And let's not forget that before you can cook, you need equipment to cook with.  Again, if you know nothing then there is a barrier for you to know what you should buy, because it is expensive to buy more than a few items and you don't want to get it wrong.

Let's not pretend it is as simple to get into that culture for someone in the position of Natasha in last night's programme as it is for a university student.


----------



## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

Not everyone's a foody, not everyone's parents are foodies, no cooking classes of any use in schools IME so plenty of people are in the same position as the people on the show I reckon.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> You know very well a loaf of bread and filling, or a bag of pasta and a jar of pesto, is not going to cost £10, which is what the woman said she spent every day on take-aways. And it's going to last you longer than one take-away. She is not trapped, she does not HAVE to have take-aways, she can teach herself just like you and I did. Why wouldn't she be able to?



PESTO! Is this satire?

You take someone who's hungry and pissed off with life and give them poncing pesto? You can surely understand why people crave high-fat grease treats when they're miserable.

She doesn't have to have takeaways, you're right. But she's not going to be able to learn like you and I - she has no interest in food culture, programmes of Nigella and some wibbling toff talking about food hold no interest and go over the head, she hasn't had the uni time to experiment and mix with others - this is what her and her peers do and have always known. You might like to think she's a horrific exception, but I know a fair few people whose horizons are as limited as hers, and a fair few others who exist mainly on high fat ready meals, admittedly from M&S rather than a downmarket  takeaway.

And so this is where the fatlip tosser comes in with his new programme, aiming at a lower level than before. And to this woman's credit she's trying to put her fears and insecurities aside to learn now, probably trying to blot out the chorus of 'fat chav' chants and others finding her lack of cooking ability horrific.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> Just to point out what should be obvious but is just the kind of thing that gets lost in the poorly articulated world of internet arguing, I don't think anyone on this thread, with perhaps one exception, is actually judging the people featured (or those in the same situation) for not being able to cook. It is perfectly understandable why this rather odd phenomenon has occurred, but none of that excuses them from addressing the problem when they are given the opportunity to, like when a sodding chef comes round your house and shows you what to do.
> 
> What is truly disgraceful is not the families that find themselves in these circumstances but the social and economic background that has allowed it to happen.



Totally agree.  Havent they recently put Home Economics (or whatever its called now, Food Tech?) back on the school curriculum?  It's certainly a place to start from.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

Teaboy said:


> Totally agree.  Havent they recently put Home Economics (or whatever its called now, Food Tech?) back on the school curriculum?  It's certainly a place to start from.



Problem was, one hour was never really long enough to do decent prep, cook and clearing up in --- I always found home ec 'lessons' rushed and panicky and I never learned anything. I got a 'U'   Which was a bit harsh.

Still despite that I can cook a few things.


----------



## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

Same as Angel, I remember they taught us to make sandwiches


----------



## el_starkos (Oct 1, 2008)

*Wikipedia is right !!*


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> Not everyone's a foody, not everyone's parents are foodies, no cooking classes of any use in schools IME so plenty of people are in the same position as the people on the show I reckon.




Yes.  But the point is about the paricular woman was she was shown how to do it.  And then cried that she couldn't afford it,  when £10 a night that shaite food is double what she should be spending.

I'm not a bad person really.  I'm just realy intolerant of people wil constant excuses.  It angers me.


----------



## N_igma (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> but these lazy fuckwits piss me right off.



So in a population of 60 million people you expect everyone on benefits to be either disabled, old or if not then know how to cook properly? You're living in cukoo land. 

I despise people who use the "I pay taxes" argument.


----------



## kained&able (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> no cooking classes of any use in schools IME so plenty of people are in the same position as the people on the show I reckon.


 
I agree bout time we had decent cooking classes in school rather then learning about population dispersal pattens in bolivia.

dave


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> It really makes you wonder about the quality of the meat they're using.
> 
> That's why if I want my kids to have chicken I prefer to have done it myself.
> 
> Some of the recipes I've wanted to try have been put off by ingredients I can't get at my local supermarket (no green grocers here)



Not sure why it'd be any different than most of the chicken offered in supermarkets, used in sandwiches or ready meals

After all, all of the big supermarkets were caught out using dogfood-grade condemned chicken a few years ago, from Thailand but reprocessed for that EU stamp. Sainsburys even used the stuff in their 'Blue Parrot' healthy childrens' range. Things have theoretically improved, but snobby preconceptions aside there's no reason why the local chicken shop's worse than elsewhere. KFC, for example, pretty much takes much higher grade cuts than any of the supermarket chains use in prepared dishes.


----------



## mattie (Oct 1, 2008)

It's not clear from the thread - was the fatboy correct in assuming that the only barrier to decent cooking was attitude?  Did the families actually manage to make decent dinners?

I only caught a few minutes, but I thought the idea of teaching some crap cooks a handful of recipes on the condition they show friends how to make them was awesome.


----------



## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Yes. But the point is about the paricular woman was she was shown how to do it. And then cried that she couldn't afford it, when £10 a night that shaite food is double what she should be spending.
> 
> I'm not a bad person really. I'm just realy intolerant of people wil constant excuses. It angers me.


 
No you've got it twisted, she said she couldn't afford to teach others, big difference.

Perhaps you're not, you're a right winger though well done. 



kained&able said:


> I agree bout time we had decent cooking classes in school rather then learning about population dispersal pattens in bolivia.
> 
> dave


 
'zacly, and you and I are fairly recent! (though maybe not as recent as I'd like! )


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Oh, I think that there is a culture around cooking and eating properly and if you are outside that culture there is a barrier to entering it.  Not an insurmountable barrier by any means, but if you have low self-esteem, have always struggled with learning things, can't afford any slip ups at all and have no support mechanism if things go wrong, I can see how the barrier could _seem_ insurmountable.



Sort of.

However I think with all the celebrity chefs and cooking programs on TV that cooking is more accesible than ever.  I've got some recipie books from about 15-20 years ago and they are rubbish, long lists of herbs and spices and ingredients I've never seen in a shop.  Yet if you look at a lot of the more recent books or tv shows there are much fewer ingredients, which can all be brought at the supermarket and they are easier to produce.

Food these days is all about stripping it back to the basics, just using good ingredients like the French and Italians have been doing for generations.


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

I don't really give a shit whether people are 'interested' in cooking, or see it as something that other classes of people do. It's a fucking life skill, and providing decent, healthy food to your kids is an important part of bringing them up.


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> PESTO! Is this satire?
> 
> You take someone who's hungry and pissed off with life and give them poncing pesto? You can surely understand why people crave high-fat grease treats when they're miserable.
> 
> ...


 
What, aren't people on benefits or who haven't been to uni aren't allowed to eat pesto?  And it's about as high-fat as you can get, it's made from cheese, oil and nuts!

And can we stop with the "fat-tongued" stuff? He has ankyloglossia, it creates a speach impediment. Criticise him, by all means, but leave out the medical impairment, that's hardly his fault.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> No you've got it twisted, she said she couldn't afford to teach others, big difference.



O really?


I thought it was that she'd stopped cooking all toghether????  

If I'm wrong in that case.....  i'll take what I said back.  Good on her.

Shameful.


<----shame on me.



> you're a right winger though well done.




I am most certainly not!


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

kained&able said:


> I agree bout time we had decent cooking classes in school rather then learning about population dispersal pattens in bolivia.
> 
> dave



Spot on.


----------



## kained&able (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> 'zacly, and you and I are fairly recent! (though maybe not as recent as I'd like! )


 
You calling me old?????


dave


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> What, aren't people on benefits or who haven't been to uni aren't allowed to eat pesto?  And it's about as high-fat as you can get, it's made from cheese, oil and nuts!


I bet someone used to kebabs and pizza would hate pesto


----------



## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> I don't really give a shit whether people are 'interested' in cooking, or see it as something that other classes of people do. It's a fucking life skill, and providing decent, healthy food to your kids is an important part of bringing them up.


 

I don't think anyone's saying it's a class thing not being able to cook, not everyone on that programme ws a doley with 27 kids! 

Although, funnily enough they were the ones they focussed on 

Also worth mentioning is the women who worked full-time but said they didn't have time to teach anyone else, they looked quite well off from their hair/clothes/make up (I know it's not a great indicator but still) do people know who I mean?


----------



## kained&able (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> What, aren't people on benefits or who haven't been to uni aren't allowed to eat pesto? And it's about as high-fat as you can get, it's made from cheese, oil and nuts!


 
chease???? BASIL!!!!!!! Lots and lots of basil.

ooh it dioes have chease in it. didnt know that.

dave


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I am most certainly not!



Why do you say right-wing things then?


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

I hate pesto. Yuk. I don't like kebabs either (meat) so LTC argument falls down at that point.


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

kained&able said:


> chease???? BASIL!!!!!!! Lots and lots of basil.
> 
> dave


Proper pesto, such as middle class cooks make, is stuffed full of pecorino cheese.


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

kained&able said:


> chease???? BASIL!!!!!!! Lots and lots of basil.
> 
> dave


 
Yes. And cheese. Lots of cheese.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 1, 2008)

> What, aren't people on benefits or who haven't been to uni aren't allowed to eat pesto? And it's about as high-fat as you can get, it's made from cheese, oil and nuts!



I dont think anyone said that, but your post did come across a bit Marie Antoinnette


----------



## beeboo (Oct 1, 2008)

Teaboy said:


> Sort However I think with all the celebrity chefs and cooking programs on TV that cooking is more accesible than ever.  I've got some recipie books from about 15-20 years ago and they are rubbish, long lists of herbs and spices and ingredients I've never seen in a shop.  Yet if you look at a lot of the more recent books or tv shows there are much fewer ingredients, which can all be brought at the supermarket and they are easier to produce.
> 
> Food these days is all about stripping it back to the basics, just using good ingredients like the French and Italians have been doing for generations.



You think? I think it is much more aspirational than ever - and the 'back to basics' stuff tends to be heavily linked with quality ingredients, not making do.

I've inherited a load of 60's/70's cookbooks an they're much more about cooking with tinned and frozen food, a lot geared at housewives who have moved straight from their parents home to having to cook for themselves/husband and then family.  Much more functional stuff.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> Same as Angel, I remember they taught us to make sandwiches



We got taught how to make biscuits, cakes, lasagne, bolognese, omelettes, pizza, bread, soup - loads of stuff


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> What, aren't people on benefits or who haven't been to uni aren't allowed to eat pesto?  And it's about as high-fat as you can get, it's made from cheese, oil and nuts!
> 
> And can we stop with the "fat-tongued" stuff? He has ankyloglossia, it creates a speach impediment. Criticise him, by all means, but leave out the medical impairment, that's hardly his fault.



Look, you're not going to convince anyone that a bit of pesto on pasta is that healthy, or that attractive an option to folks who believe that a hunk of meat and chips represents tea. It's a suggestion that'd fall like a lead balloon if you proposed it.

And I called him fatlip, based on appearance and annoyance levels alone, nowt about his speech


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

Belushi said:


> I dont think anyone said that, but your post did come across a bit Marie Antoinnette


 
I'm not the one ascribing class to food, as if somehow it's ridiulous that someone on benefits should eat pesto. Why not? Does it not fit it with what a working class person "should" eat? But if it makes you feel better, replace pesto with a tin of tomatoes.


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

I don't know what half you lot are arguing for.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> Why do you say right-wing things then?



I think the tern "left" and "right" in politics is too black and white so don't always agree on every "left" line of thinking in every neounce of the term.  I don't just stick to one dogma... however all political ideology tests stick me somewhere on the left, liberal bit.

.... and generally I class myself as a socialist (but take exception to "excuse makers").  

... But that's a different thread.


Hence why I wrongly got angry about this woman.

I thought she'd stopped the cooking lark all together.  I was wrong... and now I look like a twat!  Go MMEEEEEEE!


----------



## bmd (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> No you've got it twisted, she said she couldn't afford to teach others, big difference.
> 
> Perhaps you're not, you're a right winger though well done.



She did say she couldn't afford the food and that was the reason why she'd gone back to takeaways.

The issue I had with it was that he didn't seem to have thought it through, he set some people up to fail and left them feeling even worse about themselves.

I really liked that he'd done this, I just thought that it was a bit much to say to her that he didn't understand but that he really cared. Caring, to me, means taking the time to understand someone before you put them in a vulnerable position.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I hate pesto. Yuk. I don't like kebabs either (meat) so LTC argument falls down at that point.



What I mean is pesto is an acquired taste - I used to hate it


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> I'm not the one ascribing class to food, as if somehow it's ridiulous that someone on benefits should eat pesto. Why not? Does it not fit it with what a working class person "should" eat? But if it makes you feel better, replace pesto with a tin of tomatoes.



You're not, but your whole tone has been indicative of the divide. On one side you've got hopeless kitchen types who rely on the takeaway, on another you've committed foodies that find it slightly horrific that people haven't mastered culinary basics and believe that Pesto is a familar and attractive option. 

It's quite a bridge to build, isn't it?


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> I really liked that he'd done this, I just thought that it was a bit much to say to her that he didn't understand but that he really cared. Caring, to me, means taking the time to understand someone before you put them in a vulnerable position.


He was being honest - it would be much more patronising for the millionaire businessman to pretend he understood what a single mother of two was going through.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> She did say she couldn't afford the food and that was the reason why she'd gone back to takeaways.



Oh FFS!

Did she or did she not go back to takeaways?


----------



## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> She did say she couldn't afford the food and that was the reason why she'd gone back to takeaways.
> 
> The issue I had with it was that he didn't seem to have thought it through, he set some people up to fail and left them feeling even worse about themselves.
> 
> I really liked that he'd done this, I just thought that it was a bit much to say to her that he didn't understand but that he really cared. Caring, to me, means taking the time to understand someone before you put them in a vulnerable position.


 

Oh really? What to eat all the time instead of cooking? 

I wonder if he did too, cos he didn't give them any other recipes except meatballs and fish, we all know how many days there are in a week so why not device whole eating plans? 

he gave out those cards in the sun didn't he? Did anyone get them?


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> You're not, but your whole tone has been indicative of the divide. On one side you've got hopeless kitchen types who rely on the takeaway, on another you've committed foodies that find it slightly horrific that people haven't mastered culinary basics and believe that Pesto is a familar and attractive option.
> 
> It's quite a bridge to build, isn't it?


 
I agree. I think we actually agree with each other, really.



FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Oh FFS!
> 
> Did she or did she not go back to takeaways?


 
She went back.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> I bet someone used to kebabs and pizza would hate pesto



Don't Pesto and Pizza originate from the same country?  

Anyway it's cobblers, some people will love it others won't, their class is irrelevant.  The thing about Pesto though is it is actually quite expensive and, as has been said is not that healthy.


----------



## ethel (Oct 1, 2008)

i definitely thought that premise was good, but i must check out exactly what he's teaching people to make. the meatballs meal last night seemed a bit of a faff. why not teach people how to make things which you can bung on the hob or in the oven and forget about? my mum was always making roasts, casseroles and the like. even a stir fry would be easier.  what's wrong with simply teaching people how to boil up veg and grill meat? it's simple and quick and doesn't require a lot of prep or supervision. not everything has to be gastropub-like. 

homemade oven chips made with value spuds would cost naff all and you just bung them in the oven. it would make people realise the profit that the chippies make off selling spuds too. 

also, teaching people how to bake would be good. homemade simple cakes/buiscuits can work out pretty cheap.


----------



## bmd (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> He was being honest - it would be much more patronising for the millionaire businessman to pretend he understood what a single mother of two was going through.



Yes, he was being honest but that doesn't excuse the fact that he hadn't taken the time to understand what was going on for her before he did this. He could, for instance, have spent a few quid on advisors to tell him how it is for people in that woman's situation. Then he could have understood better and pitched his training in a way that would have been sustainable for the people who he'd chosen. Does that make sense?


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

Incidentally, I am considering volunteering to teach cookery in my community, but I can't work out how to do it. Working full time, I can't teach in schools. I'd quite like to teach widowers who've never had to cook for themselves but don't know how to go about it. I could just offer some free lessons on Freecycle but I don't think I'd really be reaching the target audience there. Is it patronising of me to do this?


----------



## ethel (Oct 1, 2008)

also, while i think of it. there was no direct cost comparsion of his recipes vs takeways. cold, hard cash is the way to help people change their ways. eg. £20 a week on the food to make these meals vs £50 on takeaways.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

AlexB said:
			
		

> I don't know what half you lot are arguing for.


Because we like to argue, of course.  Duh.


----------



## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> Incidentally, I am considering volunteering to teach cookery in my community, but I can't work out how to do it. Working full time, I can't teach in schools. I'd quite like to teach widowers who've never had to cook for themselves but don't know how to go about it. I could just offer some free lessons on Freecycle but I don't think I'd really be reaching the target audience there. Is it patronising of me to do this?


 
No! It's great of you to think about doing this! (Well as long as you're not patronising when you teach! )

One thing that made my ears prick up was the thought of using Home Economic kitchens in schools for adult classes in the evening. That'd be ace!


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

sarahluv said:


> i definitely thought that premise was good, but i must check out exactly what he's teaching people to make. the meatballs meal last night seemed a bit of a faff. why not teach people how to make things which you can bung on the hob or in the oven and forget about? my mum was always making roasts, casseroles and the like. even a stir fry would be easier. what's wrong with simply teaching people how to boil up veg and grill meat? it's simple and quick and doesn't require a lot of prep or supervision. not everything has to be gastropub-like.


 
I agree. Meatballs isn't exactly a basic, weeknight thing to make if you just want to put something together for your kids and don't know how to cook. One woman looked like she was going to vomit at having to touch the raw meat. A bit of chicken and a jacket potato would've been much easier.


----------



## bmd (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> Incidentally, I am considering volunteering to teach cookery in my community, but I can't work out how to do it. Working full time, I can't teach in schools. I'd quite like to teach widowers who've never had to cook for themselves but don't know how to go about it. I could just offer some free lessons on Freecycle but I don't think I'd really be reaching the target audience there. Is it patronising of me to do this?



Not imo. I think the basic premise of Jamie's program is great, it's just the execution that leaves something to be desired. I'd take free cooking lessons any day. There's so much more to it than just the cooking and like he said last night, there are educational establishments countrywide with kitchens going begging on an evening. Good idea.


----------



## bigbry (Oct 1, 2008)

beeboo said:


> I think he's setting the bar too high right now...people are going to feel they've failed if they can't cook meatballs from scratch for dinner.  He was surprised that people thought half an hour to make dinner was a long time...not many working mums are going to be able to give half an hour of undivided attention to cooking in the evening.
> .



How long do you think it takes to go to the kebab house or chip shop, queue up, then bring it home ?

Just as a rough guess - on average.

20 minutes ? Half an hour ?


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> Yes, he was being honest but that doesn't excuse the fact that he hadn't taken the time to understand what was going on for her before he did this. He could, for instance, have spent a few quid on advisors to tell him how it is for people in that woman's situation. Then he could have understood better and pitched his training in a way that would have been sustainable for the people who he'd chosen. Does that make sense?


I think you're expecting too much of him. She applied for free cookery lessons. He's trying to set up a popular campaign to 'get people cooking'. He's not addressing the internal contradictions of advanced capitalism or carrying out anthropological research into urban working class sub-culture.


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> Incidentally, I am considering volunteering to teach cookery in my community, but I can't work out how to do it. Working full time, I can't teach in schools. I'd quite like to teach widowers who've never had to cook for themselves but don't know how to go about it. I could just offer some free lessons on Freecycle but I don't think I'd really be reaching the target audience there. Is it patronising of me to do this?



Try contact someone like Age Concern - they might be able to provide you with people/places. Don't forget, anything like this if you do it 'formally' you'll need insurance and H&S certs to cover you in case someone drops a pan on their head or set themselves on fire or something...

And it's not patronising, it's a good thing.


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

Trouble is, I don't even know where to start. I'd probably have to get a Health & Safety cert. Then find a premises, and work out how to pay for it. And who pays for the food? Would I have to set it up as a charity to accept donations? I wish there was a mentoring scheme already in place I could just join.


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 1, 2008)

I'd suggest starting small, maybe stuff in the evenings in home. Are there any local OAP gathering points you could talk to?


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

beeboo said:


> You think? I think it is much more aspirational than ever - and the 'back to basics' stuff tends to be heavily linked with quality ingredients, not making do.
> 
> I've inherited a load of 60's/70's cookbooks an they're much more about cooking with tinned and frozen food, a lot geared at housewives who have moved straight from their parents home to having to cook for themselves/husband and then family.  Much more functional stuff.



Yup I do.  What was Delia's new series all about?  You can't get more functional than that.  

Quality ingredients don't have to be expensive, £80 a week is a tight budget to feed a family but it's possible.  Other countries seem to manage ok so why can't we?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

To be honest, why not just go down to your local community centre, social club or sporting place and take it from there. The cooking facilities there usually consist of domestic ovens ime, and you've a chance to use noticeboards and existing contacts there.


----------



## bmd (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> I think you're expecting too much of him. She applied for free cookery lessons. He's trying to set up a popular campaign to 'get people cooking'. He's not addressing the internal contradictions of advanced capitalism or carrying out anthropological research into urban working class sub-culture.



I don't agree. By his own admission he was working with vulnerable people and under those circumstances it's simply not good enough to state that you don't understand but that you're trying, after you've raised someone's expectations.

I admired his empathy, his drive and his public spirit but as you say, he's a wealthy man, do you think he would open a restaurant, watch it fail and then try to understand why it had? I'd guess that he would have advisors of all kinds to tell him how to make it work.


----------



## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> do you think he would open a restaurant, watch it fail and then try to understand why it had?


 
Did you watch Fifteen? It worked, in the end!!


----------



## bigbry (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> Incidentally, I am considering volunteering to teach cookery in my community, but I can't work out how to do it. Working full time, I can't teach in schools. *I'd quite like to teach widowers *who've never had to cook for themselves but don't know how to go about it. I could just offer some free lessons on Freecycle but I don't think I'd really be reaching the target audience there. Is it patronising of me to do this?



You're just trying to get hold of some old geezer with a few quid !


----------



## bmd (Oct 1, 2008)

zenie said:


> Did you watch Fifteen? It worked, in the end!!



Never saw it, but again, I really liked what he was trying to do with those people.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

Teaboy said:


> Yup I do.  What was Delia's new series all about?  You can't get more functional than that.
> 
> Quality ingredients don't have to be expensive, £80 a week is a tight budget to feed a family but it's possible.  Other countries seem to manage ok so why can't we?



Fcuk that. I fail to see how Delia telling you exactly what supermarket and branded products to assemble helps. It certainly doesn't help you cook indepently, nor to cook within budgets. 

That stupid, passionless automaton of a cook is one of the contributing factors to Britain's lack of cooking ability. The doyen of British cooking, she manages to be at once prim, middle class and highly prescriptive - just the kind of thing to make cooking joyless and for other people. Fuck Delia.


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 1, 2008)

> I admired his empathy, his drive and his public spirit but as you say, he's a wealthy man, do you think he would open a restaurant, watch it fail and then try to understand why it had? I'd guess that he would have advisors of all kinds to tell him how to make it work.



15 nearly bankrupted him, and only just scrapes to break-even apparently, and finding out why businesses fail is essential if you want to start another one...I'd suggest you watch Kitchen Nightmares for an indication on how badly people run their own businesses!!


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Fuck Delia.


Fuck her in the head.


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> To be honest, why not just go down to your local community centre, social club or sporting place and take it from there. The cooking facilities there usually consist of domestic ovens ime, and you've a chance to use noticeboards and existing contacts there.


 
Before I set anything up I have to think about the cost of the hire and who's going to pay for the ingredients. I wish it was as simple as just sticking a notice up in the community centre but I can't! What if it's oversubscribed? How do I decide who gets the free lessons? Do I insist that it's DSS-only? Or over-65s? 

It's something I really want to do but it's going to take more thought.


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> I don't agree. By his own admission he was working with vulnerable people and under those circumstances it's simply not good enough to state that you don't understand but that you're trying, after you've raised someone's expectations.
> 
> I admired his empathy, his drive and his public spirit but as you say, he's a wealthy man, do you think he would open a restaurant, watch it fail and then try to understand why it had? I'd guess that he would have advisors of all kinds to tell him how to make it work.


For fuck's sake: He went round to her house to see how she was getting on with learning to cook, she bursts into tears because she's got real money worries, and suddenly you expect him to have employed 'advisers' to have briefed him on the phenomenology of being poor.


----------



## bmd (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Fcuk that. I fail to see how Delia telling you exactly what supermarket and branded products to assemble helps. It certainly doesn't help you cook indepently, nor to cook within budgets.
> 
> That stupid, passionless automaton of a cook is one of the contributing factors to Britain's lack of cooking ability. The doyen of British cooking, she manages to be at once prim, middle class and highly prescriptive - just the kind of thing to make cooking joyless and for other people. Fuck Delia.



lol

Sooo...Delia. Yes or no?


----------



## madzone (Oct 1, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Family spending £80 on shite junk food for their kids... these are the people you should be fucking raging about, not Jamie.
> 
> Fucking disgusting.


I saw a family today and looked round for Jeremey Beadle. There were the two parents and two kids - one boy about 12, one girl about 14. All four were seriously (knee bendingly) overweight and they were_* all*_ smoking roll-ups


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Fcuk that. I fail to see how Delia telling you exactly what supermarket and branded products to assemble helps. It certainly doesn't help you cook indepently, nor to cook within budgets.
> 
> That stupid, passionless automaton of a cook is one of the contributing factors to Britain's lack of cooking ability. The doyen of British cooking, she manages to be at once prim, middle class and highly prescriptive - just the kind of thing to make cooking joyless and for other people. Fuck Delia.



Oh I hated that program, but it strikes me as a good starting point if your are a bit scared of the kitchen.


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 1, 2008)

Go the the community centre and talk to a few people who have more experience of organising perhaps? You're getting WELL ahead of yourself thinking about ingredients costs and whatnot...like I said, contact Age Concern or similar OAP-related organisations...


----------



## bmd (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> For fuck's sake: He went round to her house to see how she was getting on with learning to cook, she bursts into tears because she's got real money worries, and suddenly you expect him to have employed 'advisers' to have briefed him on the phenomenology of being poor.



I expect him to have done enough homework to not be in her house, having put her in a position where she's really upset about failing his cookery programme and then saying to her that he doesn't understand what her situation is about. That's not good enough.


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

bigbry said:


> You're just trying to get hold of some old geezer with a few quid !


 
I'm married!

It genuinely stems from seeing several elderly men who have never had to cook left stranded and living off tins of spaghetti. Not that there's anything wrong with tinned spaghetti


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Fcuk that. I fail to see how Delia telling you exactly what supermarket and branded products to assemble helps. It certainly doesn't help you cook indepently, nor to cook within budgets.
> 
> That stupid, passionless automaton of a cook is one of the contributing factors to Britain's lack of cooking ability. The doyen of British cooking, she manages to be at once prim, middle class and highly prescriptive - just the kind of thing to make cooking joyless and for other people. Fuck Delia.


I was no fan of that series, but doing that kind of thing could certainly get people to have confidence that they can at least assemble a meal. Buying all fresh and haggling down the farmer's market can come later. Some of her earlier recipes are fucking bullet proof too.


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> I expect him to have done enough homework to not be in her house, having put her in a position where she's really upset about failing his cookery programme and then saying to her that he doesn't understand what her situation is about. That's not good enough.


 
So in order to teach people to cook, you've got to take a course in socio-economics beforehand?


----------



## ethel (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> I was no fan of that series, but doing that kind of thing could certainly get people to have confidence that they can at least assemble a meal. Buying all fresh and haggling down the farmer's market can come later. Some of her earlier recipes are fucking bullet proof too.



indeed! and there is nowt wrong with using frozen, tinned veg etc.

i live on my own and it's definitely more economical to use frozen veg than to buy fresh stuff which will probably go off before i've had the chance to use it.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> Before I set anything up I have to think about the cost of the hire and who's going to pay for the ingredients. I wish it was as simple as just sticking a notice up in the community centre but I can't! What if it's oversubscribed? How do I decide who gets the free lessons? Do I insist that it's DSS-only? Or over-65s?
> 
> It's something I really want to do but it's going to take more thought.



Would you need to hire the place? I used to help out on Soup Kitchens/Old People social clubs (cooking West Indian food) when I was a younger and I think a fair few places would be happy for you to get on with it - the kitchens are often slightly out of the way for a start and not in the 'hire' areas. Cost and popularity are something you'll have to weigh up for yourself - tbh I think you'd need to make it free to attract the most needy.

It's probably worth getting your basic (piss easy) Food hygiene certificate.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> Some of her earlier recipes are fucking bullet proof too.


Shame her later ones aren't.  Seriously, I suspect that she's never even tested some of them.  Even as someone with even a modicum of knowledge about cooking, I read some of them and it is palpably obvious to me that it Will Not Work.  In really basic and obvious ways.

Basically, Delia is a dickhead.

Saying that, you can generally adapt her recipes and get something pretty good.  If you know why they don't work and you know how to fix it, at least.


----------



## bmd (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> So in order to teach people to cook, you've got to take a course in socio-economics beforehand?



Yes, that's right, that's exactly what I'm saying. 

Or, you could look at it like this. That woman was in a life that would have been made better by the ideas Jamie had but it wasn't because the execution was sadly lacking. A bit more thought on that side of things would have meant a better outcome for everyone.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> We got taught how to make biscuits, cakes, lasagne, bolognese, omelettes, pizza, bread, soup - loads of stuff



You went to the posh school !  

Our home ec lessons were rubbish.


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> I expect him to have done enough homework to not be in her house, having put her in a position where she's really upset about failing his cookery programme and then saying to her that he doesn't understand what her situation is about. That's not good enough.


Why are you so hung up on the fact that he said he didn't understand her circumstances?

These are two adults with no known history of mental illness talking to each other.


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> You went to the posh school !
> 
> Our home ec lessons were rubbish.



I went to the local state comp and we learned all that stuff between 11-13 before HE became an option subject. Nowt posh about my old school.


----------



## kained&able (Oct 1, 2008)

I went to a fairly posh school and got taught nothing.

dave


----------



## bmd (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> Why are you so hung up on the fact that he said he didn't understand her circumstances?
> 
> These are two adults with no known history of mental illness talking to each other.



Do you understand what he meant when he said that he was dealing with vulnerable people?


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

sarahluv said:


> i definitely thought that premise was good, but i must check out exactly what he's teaching people to make. the meatballs meal last night seemed a bit of a faff. why not teach people how to make things which you can bung on the hob or in the oven and forget about? my mum was always making roasts, casseroles and the like. even a stir fry would be easier.  what's wrong with simply teaching people how to boil up veg and grill meat? it's simple and quick and doesn't require a lot of prep or supervision. not everything has to be gastropub-like.
> 
> homemade oven chips made with value spuds would cost naff all and you just bung them in the oven. it would make people realise the profit that the chippies make off selling spuds too.
> 
> also, teaching people how to bake would be good. homemade simple cakes/buiscuits can work out pretty cheap.




Does Jamie Oliver ever do cakes and desserts (Delia is good for that btw)
I wouldn't personally want to do my own chips/ deep fat fryers are fire hazards. I'm happy to support the local chippies in that respect.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> Incidentally, I am considering volunteering to teach cookery in my community, but I can't work out how to do it. Working full time, I can't teach in schools. I'd quite like to teach widowers who've never had to cook for themselves but don't know how to go about it. I could just offer some free lessons on Freecycle but I don't think I'd really be reaching the target audience there. Is it patronising of me to do this?






I'll help you!  I'd love to do that!  Awsome..... and we live near each other.




Thames Valley Uni might be willing to lend you thier kitchens...


Worth a try!  There's also a kids cooking place between ealing and acton which might allow you to use thier kitchens.


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> Do you understand what he meant when he said that he was dealing with vulnerable people?


Do you often answer a question with another question?


----------



## mentalchik (Oct 1, 2008)

Don't think i did any cookery at school after the age of 13.......none of my sons (aged 23, 20 and 15 yrs) have done any cookery at school at all !





> Buying all fresh and haggling down the farmer's market can come later





...people seem to assume everyone has access to such a thing !


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> I was no fan of that series, but doing that kind of thing could certainly get people to have confidence that they can at least assemble a meal. Buying all fresh and haggling down the farmer's market can come later. Some of her earlier recipes are fucking bullet proof too.



Look, you don't encourage a lasting love of art by making people paint by numbers, sending them off to buy specific paints from branded outlets dotted around the high street.

It's a particularly joyless and anal process that takes away independent thought. It's that kind of prescriptive approach which makes Delia uniquely popular amongst certain types - well, you wouldn't want to fuck up that dinner party dish in front of the Jones' would you? - but makes cooking seem artificial, dislikeably prim and undesirable to far more people. 

If Delia had died in a horrific roadside accident many years ago I would barely shed a tear. And I'd wager that more people would cook better in blighty too.


----------



## beeboo (Oct 1, 2008)

Teaboy said:


> Yup I do.  What was Delia's new series all about?  You can't get more functional than that.



But that, to me, read exactly like some of my mum's Good Housekeeping cook-books of old, that were all about using stuff like instant mash and other "cheats" (which were a novelty back then) to create impressive-looking cooking - stick a pineapple ring on a slice of gammon stuff.

Considering the 'outcry' over that show, I think it's fair to say it was flying in the face of the current trend for quality/fresh/authentic food.



> Quality ingredients don't have to be expensive, £80 a week is a tight budget to feed a family but it's possible.  Other countries seem to manage ok so why can't we?



Other countries not only have a different attitude but an entirely different environment - go in to a supermarket in France and the quality and variety of fresh produce that is available is staggering compared to the UK, and they don't have the same cost/quality stratification that we have.  Cooking quality on a budget in countries like Italy or France is a completely different concept.


----------



## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> Before I set anything up I have to think about the cost of the hire and who's going to pay for the ingredients. I wish it was as simple as just sticking a notice up in the community centre but I can't! What if it's oversubscribed? How do I decide who gets the free lessons? Do I insist that it's DSS-only? Or over-65s?
> 
> It's something I really want to do but it's going to take more thought.


 

E-mail Jamie


----------



## STFC (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> I think you're expecting too much of him. She applied for free cookery lessons. He's trying to set up a popular campaign to 'get people cooking'. He's not addressing the internal contradictions of advanced capitalism or carrying out anthropological research into urban working class sub-culture.



I think that's the basic premise of his next series.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

Oh yeah,  And I'm sure there's plenty of church halls that would be perfectly helpful to let you use their facilities for such a good cause... although the church could put some people off.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Look, you don't encourage a lasting love of art by making people paint by numbers, sending them off to buy specific paints from branded outlets dotted around the high street.
> 
> It's a particularly joyless and anal process that takes away independent thought. It's that kind of prescriptive approach which makes Delia uniquely popular amongst certain types - well, you wouldn't want to fuck up that dinner party dish in front of the Jones' would you? - but makes cooking seem artificial, dislikeably prim and undesirable to far more people.
> 
> If Delia had died in a horrific roadside accident many years ago I would barely shed a tear. And I'd wager that more people would cook better in blighty too.



I made a fantastic chocolate fudge cake from a Delia recipe. So there. The xmas cake was good too.


----------



## bmd (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> Do you often answer a question with another question?



I'm not hung up on anything, I thought we were having a debate about the nature of the program. Then you mentioned mental illness which I thought was what you thought was what a vulnerable person had, so I was trying to clarify that.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

Yes, her cakes are good.  Probably because cakes actually NEED meticulous rules laid down for how to make them, otherwise you end up with a soggy mess.  Or possibly just because she is a right cake-muncher.


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I'll help you! I'd love to do that! Awsome..... and we live near each other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I'd get my food H & S cert from TVU, but I doubt they'd lend me their kitchens for free, they run courses in the evenings too. I know the kid's cookery place in Acton, and there's a Thai cookery school on Northfields. Thing is, everyone's got their costs to cover - electric and gas, security, insurance etc. I will make investigations though.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

... mmm..... which is why the curches might be more willing to donate their kitchens for a charitable and community cause.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

Baking's the one area where a more prescriptive approach makes sense.  I'll give Delia that much. Prim and pastry go together as well as cakes and the WI

But she can still fuck off with her bland recipes and dullard approach on everything else.


----------



## beeboo (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> It genuinely stems from seeing several elderly men who have never had to cook left stranded and living off tins of spaghetti. Not that there's anything wrong with tinned spaghetti



I think looking at cooking for the elderly is a great idea - there has got to be a market for that!  I think talking to your local Age Concern would be a great idea.  Think small - going into people's own homes and doing one-on-one stuff.  It links in well with befriending services (which are often well over-subscribed with people stuck on waiting lists) and it's totally on the zeitgeist in terms of older people's care - enabling them to help themselves rather than encouraging dependancy.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> You went to the posh school !
> 
> Our home ec lessons were rubbish.



I went to a scarily bad comp but learnt the same....


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Look, you don't encourage a lasting love of art by making people paint by numbers, sending them off to buy specific paints from branded outlets dotted around the high street.


Oh, wonderful, a meaningless analogy.



> It's a particularly joyless and anal process that takes away independent thought. It's that kind of prescriptive approach which makes Delia uniquely popular amongst certain types - well, you wouldn't want to fuck up that dinner party dish in front of the Jones' would you? - but makes cooking seem artificial, dislikeably prim and undesirable to far more people.


Ah, so it's too bourgeois. Nothing about flavours or taste then. 



> If Delia had died in a horrific roadside accident many years ago I would barely shed a tear. And I'd wager that more people would cook better in blighty too.


Pointless counterfactuals. This is going swimmingly. You don't like her, we get it. Other people have different opinions and their existence offends you, right.

You have a personal, very narrow, take on what cooking should be - all independent thinking and creativity. Some people might just want to put a decent meal on the table. Some people want to be able to bake a cake. Don't let it get to you.


----------



## ethel (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Does Jamie Oliver ever do cakes and desserts (Delia is good for that btw)
> I wouldn't personally want to do my own chips/ deep fat fryers are fire hazards. I'm happy to support the local chippies in that respect.



i always though that deep fat fryers were pretty safe. especially compared to chip pans! anyway, i said oven chips


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

Also, Delia's recipes always start off with the line, "Take half a cup of lard and pour in 250ml of cream.  Now heat it in some vegetable oil."  Or something like that in any case.  The whole healthy eating thing just sailed right past her, didn't it?


----------



## ringo (Oct 1, 2008)

Missed this last night, too busy stuffing down a take-away, but it's repeated on Channel 4 tonight at 23:05.


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> I'm not hung up on anything, I thought we were having a debate about the nature of the program. Then you mentioned mental illness which I thought was what you thought was what a vulnerable person had, so I was trying to clarify that.


I wasn't sure how rhetorical your question was.


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 1, 2008)

Ironically, we were eating a take-away while watching the programme


----------



## Ms T (Oct 1, 2008)

Alex B said:


> I don't really give a shit whether people are 'interested' in cooking, or see it as something that other classes of people do. It's a fucking life skill, and providing decent, healthy food to your kids is an important part of bringing them up.




I completely agree.  Although I am the epitome of a middle-class foodie these days,  I was brought up in a working-class home in the north of England.  My Mum loathes cooking, and as it happens her mother was a terrible cook, but she had no option but to produce proper, home-cooked food every day.  We simply couldn't afford processed food or takeaways, so ate a lot of mince, stews and pies.  Crisps and chocolate were strictly rationed, as was fruit, because my Mum couldn't afford to buy it more than once a week.  On Sundays we had a roast dinner, which was turned into Monday night's tea.  We always ate around the table.  I suspect lots of people grew up like this in the seventies/early eighties.  

What I don't understand is where this all started to go wrong.  When did people start living on takeaways and shit food?

And why did Tasha have a huge cooker in her house that she never used?


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

Ms T said:


> I completely agree.  Although I am the epitome of a middle-class foodie these days,  I was brought up in a working-class home in the north of England.  My Mum loathes cooking, and as it happens her mother was a terrible cook, but she had no option but to produce proper, home-cooked food every day.  We simply couldn't afford processed food or takeaways, so ate a lot of mince, stews and pies.  Crisps and chocolate were strictly rationed, as was fruit, because my Mum couldn't afford to buy it more than once a week.  On Sundays we had a roast dinner, which was turned into Monday night's tea.  We always ate around the table.  I suspect lots of people grew up like this in the seventies/early eighties.
> 
> What I don't understand is where this all started to go wrong.  When did people start living on takeaways and shit food?
> 
> And why did Tasha have a huge cooker in her house that she never used?




More women go out to work = less time cooking. 'Convenience' meals improved a lot and more supermarkets sell them. In the 'old days' supermarkets were just for tinned and frozen food. People went to bakers/ butchers/ greengrocers for all fresh stuff.


----------



## DRINK? (Oct 1, 2008)

I think fair play to him....why he wastes his time on such plankton I don't know....if they are that stupid and keen to blame something / somone else, without realizing that the problem is 99% there own fault, leave them to it


----------



## Ms T (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran said:


> I'm married!
> 
> It genuinely stems from seeing several elderly men who have never had to cook left stranded and living off tins of spaghetti. Not that there's anything wrong with tinned spaghetti



Hendo's Dad is a bit like that.  Luckily he's not short of a few bob and has discovered Waitrose ready meals.


----------



## beeboo (Oct 1, 2008)

Ms T said:


> And why did Tasha have a huge cooker in her house that she never used?



Yes I wondered that too...I was well jealous of that cooker!


----------



## Ms T (Oct 1, 2008)

kained&able said:


> I went to a fairly posh school and got taught nothing.
> 
> dave



Me too.  Well, nothing about cooking anyway.


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

DRINK? said:


> if they are that stupid and keen to blame something / somone else, without realizing that the problem is 99% there own fault, leave them to it


^This. If only you'd posted this nine pages ago we could have spared ourselves all the debate. The thread ends here, all that needs to be said has been said.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

Ms T said:


> What I don't understand is where this all started to go wrong.  When did people start living on takeaways and shit food?



Much of my father's generation lived on cheap bread and dripping, with the occasional treat.

I honestly think this idea of the British working class eating decent meals around the table regularly is a bit of an invention. It was something to aspire to for sure, but food quality for much of the population was low.


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 1, 2008)

> I completely agree. Although I am the epitome of a middle-class foodie these days, I was brought up in a working-class home in the north of England. My Mum loathes cooking, and as it happens her mother was a terrible cook, but she had no option but to produce proper, home-cooked food every day. We simply couldn't afford processed food or takeaways, so ate a lot of mince, stews and pies. Crisps and chocolate were strictly rationed, as was fruit, because my Mum couldn't afford to buy it more than once a week. On Sundays we had a roast dinner, which was turned into Monday night's tea. We always ate around the table. I suspect lots of people grew up like this in the seventies/early eighties.



Sounds much like my childhood in the South, with a working teenage mother and grandmother in the home. Eating around the table was also a big deal, esp Sunday roast, and I got the 'Don't eat you firsts, you don't get seconds'...


----------



## Ms T (Oct 1, 2008)

beeboo said:


> But that, to me, read exactly like some of my mum's Good Housekeeping cook-books of old, that were all about using stuff like instant mash and other "cheats" (which were a novelty back then) to create impressive-looking cooking - stick a pineapple ring on a slice of gammon stuff.
> 
> Considering the 'outcry' over that show, I think it's fair to say it was flying in the face of the current trend for quality/fresh/authentic food.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure about that to be honest.  I think it's the culture that is the main difference, and the fact that people are prepared to spend a much bigger proportion of their income on food.


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 1, 2008)

> go in to a supermarket in France and the quality and variety of fresh produce that is available is staggering compared to the UK, and they don't have the same cost/quality stratification that we have. Cooking quality on a budget in countries like Italy or France is a completely different concept.



Which you and I pay for in CAP subsidy.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

DRINK? said:


> I think fair play to him....why he wastes his time on such plankton I don't know....if they are that stupid and keen to blame something / somone else, without realizing that the problem is 99% there own fault, leave them to it





Isn't that what I said but less angry and more composed?


----------



## kained&able (Oct 1, 2008)

France doesnt tend to have that good a range in fresh stuff. The produce is all amazing and tasty and not all the same sized but i reckon you get more variety in ana average superstore then you do in a massive hyper marche in france.

The booze selection tends to be a sbit shit as well(other then french wine)


dave


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 1, 2008)

The whole Jamie and Juleeeessss thing is garenteed to get on yer tits but he seems to be a decent sort,far more likable than other telly chefs ie Ramsey etc.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Much of my father's generation lived on cheap bread and dripping, with the occasional treat.
> 
> I honestly think this idea of the British working class eating decent meals around the table regularly is a bit of an invention. It was something to aspire to for sure, but food quality for much of the population was low.



We ate bread and dripping a lot!  Poor people's food, basically, but delicious, especially if you sprinkled it with a bit of salt.  Now it's something that only foodies seem to eat, ironically.

I can't speak for the whole of the British working classes, obviously, but it was the norm for my family to sit round the table.  I thought it was the height of decadence to go round to my friend's house where they ate off their laps in front of the telly.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

Ms T said:


> I'm not sure about that to be honest.  I think it's the culture that is the main difference, and the fact that people are prepared to spend a much bigger proportion of their income on food.



True. Food and cooking's much more central to other cultures.

My mum was amazed, on arrival in Britain, that people were still boling mince and other culinary monstrosities. It was an era when spaghetti and foreign food was seen as untrustworthy and the legacy of rationing and value-led food lived on.

Listening to some of the old Welsh (mining) relatives, it's clear that food was little more than fuel for them as well. This is only a generation or two back, not some distant past - this belief that the working class over here had a decent foood culture before strikes me as somewhat false. Folks may have aspired for sit down meals like what the Queen did, but diets were workmanlike and unvaried in the main.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Does Jamie Oliver ever do cakes and desserts (Delia is good for that btw)
> I wouldn't personally want to do my own chips/ deep fat fryers are fire hazards. I'm happy to support the local chippies in that respect.



Oven chips are perfectly safe, but I do wonder now about the economy of heating up the whole oven for some chips


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Oct 1, 2008)

Ms T said:


> ...I thought it was the height of decadence to go round to my friend's house where they ate off their laps in front of the telly.



LOL - me too! I still feel a twinge of wrongness to this day eating off my lap 

We had a breakfast bar at home that we ate off on weekdays. The dining room and the dining room table was for Sundays only for the Sunday roast. Not sure what class that makes us!


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> True. Food and cooking's much more central to other cultures.
> 
> My mum was amazed, on arrival in Britain, that people were still boling mince and other culinary monstrosities. It was an era when spaghetti and foreign food was seen as untrustworthy and the legacy of rationing and value-led food lived on.
> 
> Listening to some of the old Welsh (mining) relatives, it's clear that food was little more than fuel for them as well. This is only a generation or two back, not some distant past - this belief that the working class over here had a decent foood culture before strikes me as somewhat false. Folks may have aspired for sit down meals like what the Queen did, but diets were workmanlike and unvaried in the main.


I'm afraid your anecdotes are of no more value than the we-all-sat-down-to-roast-chicken-on-a-Sunday ones.


----------



## beeboo (Oct 1, 2008)

kained&able said:


> France doesnt tend to have that good a range in fresh stuff. The produce is all amazing and tasty and not all the same sized but i reckon you get more variety in ana average superstore then you do in a massive hyper marche in france.



Maybe I've just been lucky but every time I go to the supermarket with my French friends I'm just slack-jawed in amazement at the range of fish/meat/veg/fruit.

I think they have less novelty/exotic stuff than us, but everything else I think they knock even our best supermarkets into a cocked hat.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

Well same here, but isn't that indicative of the working classes trying to keep up with the Jones' and the common aspiration to appear middle class or better? 

See also houses where ITV was seen as downmarket and where you'd have to hide the HP bottle.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> True. Food and cooking's much more central to other cultures.
> 
> My mum was amazed, on arrival in Britain, that people were still boling mince and other culinary monstrosities. It was an era when spaghetti and foreign food was seen as untrustworthy and the legacy of rationing and value-led food lived on.
> 
> Listening to some of the old Welsh (mining) relatives, it's clear that food was little more than fuel for them as well. This is only a generation or two back, not some distant past - this belief that the working class over here had a decent foood culture before strikes me as somewhat false. Folks may have aspired for sit down meals like what the Queen did, but diets were workmanlike and unvaried in the main.




I think that it's true that the food wasn't amazing - people couldn't afford it for a start.  And neither of my grandmothers could cook for toffee.  We used to visit my mother's Mum every Friday and would always have fish and chips from the local chippy.  She was very good at bread and butter though (loaf buttered first, then sliced very thinly).  But my grandfather (who was a fussy and thoroughly unpleasant fucker who loved tripe and cherries and crab claws and not much else) had an allotment so we would go home with bags of home-grown tomatoes, cucumbers and runner beans.  And although my Mum was a reasonable enough home cook, the food we ate was hardly gourmet.  For years I thought I hated curry because it was cooked in the pressure cooker with a thin gravy and sultanas!  Good puddings though, because my mother has a sweet tooth.


----------



## kained&able (Oct 1, 2008)

beeboo said:


> Maybe I've just been lucky but every time I go to the supermarket with my French friends I'm just slack-jawed in amazement at the range of fish/meat/veg/fruit.
> 
> I think they have less novelty/exotic stuff than us, but everything else I think they knock even our best supermarkets into a cocked hat.


 
fruit and veg im fairly sure we get more variety then the french. Quality wise they win hands down. Tomatoes actually taste of something and everything.

dave


----------



## Sadken (Oct 1, 2008)

I haven't read the thread but I NEED to point out that if I ever see Jamie Oliver in the street, I am either going to stab him in the face with a screwdriver and hang his fat tongue around my neck like some kind of sick(er) Flava Flav or else I'm gonna glower at him from across the street before carrying on my business and _telling_ everyone that I stabbed him etc. etc.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2008)

You should never stifle a NEED.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 1, 2008)

Mrs Miggins said:


> LOL - me too! I still feel a twinge of wrongness to this day eating off my lap




Only allowed in our house if we're having a takeaway, which is only a few times a year.


----------



## iskande (Oct 1, 2008)

beeboo said:


> Maybe I've just been lucky but every time I go to the supermarket with my French friends I'm just slack-jawed in amazement at the range of fish/meat/veg/fruit.



i get the same when i take friends to the fish counter at my local "asian" supermarket, they dont seem to think you can buy fresh fish in britain, choose your fish. get it caught and chopped all for the same price as the clearly off ones in sainsburys. three times as much to choose from as well...!


----------



## Sadken (Oct 1, 2008)

kabbes said:


> You should never stifle a NEED.



Sometimes, in a busy street or what-have-you, it's simply impractical to indulge my NEED for SPEED.  My need for weed though, well, ahahahaha, _that's_ another story alllllllllllllllllltogether.


----------



## Santino (Oct 1, 2008)

kabbes said:


> You should never stifle a NEED.


You need to shut up


----------



## zenie (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> See also houses where *ITV was seen as downmarket* and where you'd have to hide the HP bottle.


 

Pfft Urban's like that now.


----------



## Sadken (Oct 1, 2008)

You NEED to respect your kabbes


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

Teaboy said:


> Oven chips are perfectly safe, but I do wonder now about the economy of heating up the whole oven for some chips



You could say that about anything really.


----------



## Epona (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Much of my father's generation lived on cheap bread and dripping, with the occasional treat.
> 
> I honestly think this idea of the British working class eating decent meals around the table regularly is a bit of an invention. It was something to aspire to for sure, but food quality for much of the population was low.


Quite!  What I lived on in early childhood was the fattiest gristliest and hence the cheapest bits of meat usually bulked out with pearl barley, potatoes, and the cheapest processed white bread (did try making our own but it never worked, I think the house was too cold for the yeast to do its job!)  Living where we did we had a garden so grew a limited amount of our own veg.  Like most rural working class kids around my age we didn't eat anything exotic like pasta - which at that time was hugely expensive compared to a bag of spuds - and when you've never had it, you don't know what to do with it once cooked anyway - not due to ignorance, but because using it to form a meal is completely outside your sphere of experience.  Nowadays it seems easy to throw together pasta and a nice sauce on the cheap (it's the mainstay of my diet these days!) but people forget that at the time there weren't such things as peppers, chillis, garlic, etc. even in the supermarkets and certainly not in the village shop.

We did get the requisite amounts of protein, carbs, vitamins etc., but it wasn't much like the sometimes romanticised image of working class people of the past tucking into hearty food well prepared with a bounty of fresh ingredients, it was more like a culinary siege.

I have no doubt that had there been cheap takeaways around we'd have availed ourselves of them, my mum detests cooking and always has!


----------



## Ms T (Oct 1, 2008)

Epona said:


> Quite!  What I lived on in early childhood was the fattiest gristliest and hence the cheapest bits of meat usually bulked out with pearl barley, potatoes, and the cheapest processed white bread (did try making our own but it never worked, I think the house was too cold for the yeast to do its job!)  Living where we did we had a garden so grew a limited amount of our own veg.  Like most rural working class kids around my age we didn't eat anything exotic like pasta - which at that time was hugely expensive compared to a bag of spuds - and when you've never had it, you don't know what to do with it once cooked anyway - not due to ignorance, but because using it to form a meal is completely outside your sphere of experience.  Nowadays it seems easy to throw together pasta and a nice sauce on the cheap (it's the mainstay of my diet these days!) but people forget that at the time there weren't such things as peppers, chillis, garlic, etc. even in the supermarkets and certainly not in the village shop.
> 
> We did get the requisite amounts of protein, carbs, vitamins etc., but it wasn't much like the sometimes romanticised image of working class people of the past tucking into hearty food well prepared with a bounty of fresh ingredients, it was more like a culinary siege.
> 
> I have no doubt that had there been cheap takeaways around we'd have availed ourselves of them, my mum detests cooking and always has!



The only pasta we had was spag bol, and my Mum used to make it with mince, onions and a packet of tomato soup.  Funnily enough, I didn't like it much.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

I still feel a bit funny about the telly being on when I'm eating - can't avoid it now though.
And if I'm cooking for people, they sit at the table and the telly's off!


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

beeboo said:


> Maybe I've just been lucky but every time I go to the supermarket with my French friends I'm just slack-jawed in amazement at the range of fish/meat/veg/fruit.
> 
> I think they have less novelty/exotic stuff than us, but everything else I think they knock even our best supermarkets into a cocked hat.



Have you not been to any grocers run by Indians or West Indians, there is stuff available that I couldent even describe let alone name.

I'm not buying this whole the French have better and cheaper options.  We have loads and many things they don't have, we are just falling into the same trap as the U.S.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 1, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> I expect him to have done enough homework to not be in her house, having put her in a position where she's really upset about failing his cookery programme and then saying to her that he doesn't understand what her situation is about. That's not good enough.



After this scene Jamie Oliver said something along the lines of... i cant help but feel im enriching her life...

No he's just made her feel more shit about herself, life and her capabilities as a mother!

While i really liked the idea of this programme... this part of the programme really angered me!


Also for the people who are saying it's a time issue... not having the spare half hour or whatever... Surely a good idea would be to get the kids to join in the cooking, they'd be more likely to want to eat it rather than crappy processed shite cos they'd been involved in the making of it and hopefully they'd be learning at the same time?? Cooking can be fun, yes....


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> You could say that about anything really.



I meant the cost of heating up the oven for some chips may be more than buying them from the chippy.  Just speculation really.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 1, 2008)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Surely a good idea would be to get the kids to join in the cooking, they'd be more likely to want to eat it rather than crappy processed shite cos they'd been involved in the making of it and hopefully they'd be learning at the same time?? Cooking can be fun, yes....



...and then at least the kids will know the basics when they end up in the same situation...


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

Teaboy said:


> I meant the cost of heating up the oven for some chips may be more than buying them from the chippy.  Just speculation really.



I doubt.  Given the recent price increases in chippies.


----------



## maximilian ping (Oct 1, 2008)

There is no doubt that English people need a bit of help with cooking. Only the Irish are worse at it. So good on ya Jamie

Mind you, Valentine Warner on What to Eat Now is an absolute c%nt


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Also, Delia's recipes always start off with the line, "Take half a cup of lard and pour in 250ml of cream.  Now heat it in some vegetable oil."  Or something like that in any case.  The whole healthy eating thing just sailed right past her, didn't it?




LOLz....


This for the truthery.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Oct 1, 2008)

missfran - as tarannau's already suggested, community centres would be an _ideal_ place to start!

They very often do lunch time meals for OAP's, so have decent functional kitchens and also run a huge variety of classes to cover all sorts of interests.

And I think you completely misunderstood his other point, which was not that you would just stick something up on a noticeboard without having organised it any further  or indeed that you were effectively just hiring the place from them and would have to fund it all yourself, but rather that you talked _to the staff/committee_ about whether they were interested in you voluntarily teaching cooking (& if they thought there would be enough interest), in which case it's more than likely that THEY would provide the food and the kitchen time - or at the very least, be able to point you in the right direction of some funding if their budget was too small. 

It seems by far the least complicated and most sensible route towards doing it - and would bring your target audience very easily to you!


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I doubt.  Given the recent price increases in chippies.



The bastards!  This credit crunch malarky is really getting serious.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 1, 2008)

Kanda said:


> ...and then at least the kids will know the basics when they end up in the same situation...



What do you mean parenthood??


----------



## beeboo (Oct 1, 2008)

Teaboy said:


> Have you not been to any grocers run by Indians or West Indians, there is stuff available that I couldent even describe let alone name.
> 
> I'm not buying this whole the French have better and cheaper options.  We have loads and many things they don't have, we are just falling into the same trap as the U.S.



Well I'm sure you can get Indian and West Indian grocers in France as well - my point was more that (in my experience) if you walk into the average supermarket in France they've got a greater range and quality of fresh produce, plus their supermarkets don't seem to be as socially stratified as ours - I've tried asking French people which supermarkets are more like Asda and which are more like Waitrose, and they just don't seem to work like that - they all seem to be broadly similar.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

maximilian ping said:


> There is no doubt that English people need a bit of help with cooking. Only the Irish are worse at it. So good on ya Jamie
> 
> Mind you, Valentine Warner on What to Eat Now is an absolute c%nt



I've heard Norwegian food isn't up to all that much.

I think there's far worse than English cuisine, actually. (Ever tried being a vegetarian in France???)


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

beeboo said:


> Well I'm sure you can get Indian and West Indian grocers in France as well - my point was more that (in my experience) if you walk into the average supermarket in France they've got a greater range and quality of fresh produce, plus their supermarkets don't seem to be as socially stratified as ours - I've tried asking French people which supermarkets are more like Asda and which are more like Waitrose, and they just don't seem to work like that - they all seem to be broadly similar.



My experience of France (the South mostly) is that a lot of people buy their fruit and veg from market stalls.  Obviously thats not practical for a lot of Britain which says a lot about our culture.  We spend far to much time working and commuting and thi sis combined with the total breakdown of the family unit.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 1, 2008)

wow... 1 episode and 250 replies...... I can't wait till next week


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I've heard Norwegian food isn't up to all that much.
> 
> I think there's far worse than English cuisine, actually. (Ever tried being a vegetarian in France???)



Completly agree, there are some shocking cuisines out there.  At least Britain tends to recognise that our traditional stuff is, on the whole, total slurry so we borrow a lot from other cultures.


----------



## maximilian ping (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I've heard Norwegian food isn't up to all that much.
> 
> I think there's far worse than English cuisine, actually. (Ever tried being a vegetarian in France???)



there is certainly nothing wrong with English cuisine, it's the loser attitude to cooking it that's the problem


----------



## Kanda (Oct 1, 2008)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> What do you mean parenthood??



Yes.


----------



## Epona (Oct 1, 2008)

Ms T said:


> The only pasta we had was spag bol, and my Mum used to make it with mince, onions and a packet of tomato soup.  Funnily enough, I didn't like it much.


I went round a (more middle class than me!) friend's house once and was fed spag bol.  Complete eye opener to have something that wasn't meat & 2 veg.  That's when I decided I wanted to learn to cook and as soon as things weren't so tight financially I started cooking something 'exotic' at least once a week.  My first effort was paella which I found a recipe for in a 'foreign food' cookbook, had to use tinned peppers because fresh just weren't available (at least not in rural Surrey!) at the time


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

Epona said:


> I went round a (more middle class than me!) friend's house once and was fed spag bol.  Complete eye opener to have something that wasn't meat & 2 veg.  That's when I decided I wanted to learn to cook and as soon as things weren't so tight financially I started cooking something 'exotic' at least once a week.  My first effort was paella which I found a recipe for in a 'foreign food' cookbook, had to use tinned peppers because fresh just weren't available (at least not in rural Surrey!) at the time



We never had pasta either. Not sure why, it's cheap and filling but my Dad doesn't deem pasta (or pizza for that matter) 'proper' food.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> We never had pasta either. Not sure why, it's cheap and filling but my Dad doesn't deem pasta (or pizza for that matter) 'proper' food.



It's because it's foreign and wierd.  My Dad was exactly the same, he just wanted tasteless stodge and lots of it.  No wonder my mum hated cooking, it must be terribly depressing cooking for someone who has so little appreciation of food.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 1, 2008)

Teaboy said:


> It's because it's foreign and wierd.  My Dad was exactly the same, he just wanted tasteless stodge and lots of it.  No wonder my mum hated it cooking it must be terribly depressing cooking for someone who has so little appreciation of food.



It's odd because my Dad likes French, Spanish and Chinese food but goes all weird on anything Italian.

Apart from that he does have very old fashioned tastes. He was a teacher so everything he likes is a bit stodgish 1950's school dinner style.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> You went to the posh school !
> 
> Our home ec lessons were rubbish.



I went to a far from posh school and we got taught all sorts of good stuff from pizza to crumble, from pies to lemon curd I think a lot has to do with motivation of kids and staff


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

My dad claims to eat everything.

It's just that he doesn't like anything which isn't meat or two veg. And boy, does he let you know of his dislike. It's a great technique.


----------



## susie12 (Oct 1, 2008)

> ]Yes, he was being honest but that doesn't excuse the fact that he hadn't taken the time to understand what was going on for her before he did this. He could, for instance, have spent a few quid on advisors to tell him how it is for people in that woman's situation. Then he could have understood better and pitched his training in a way that would have been sustainable for the people who he'd chosen. Does that make sense?
> [/QUOTE
> 
> Yes.  Having worked with people in that situation, I think he would have been better sitting down with her and eg working out a week's food budget with stuff she could actually make realistically.  Also she lives a way from the supermarket and the takeaway is nearby.  With two kids schlepping to the supermarket is probably difficult and expensive.  I do agree his heart's in the right place but he is a million miles away from the people he's trying to help.  I agree that chucking  crisps and chocolate at the kids comes across as lazy but when you are down and in a dead end situation life is hard, and if she wasn't brought up to cook cheaply and doesn't see it as a priority it's doubly hard.  The problems here are much more complex than he seems to grasp.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

Teaboy said:


> My experience of France (the South mostly) is that a lot of people buy their fruit and veg from market stalls.  Obviously thats not practical for a lot of Britain which says a lot about our culture.  We spend far to much time working and commuting and thi sis combined with the total breakdown of the family unit.



People always say that, but most markets are open weekends. Now supermarkets may well be convenient, but the French also make the effort to travel for their produce. 

Yes, we do work long hours, but if people were committed enough most could make a market.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Oct 1, 2008)

Ms T said:


> We used to visit my mother's Mum every Friday and would always have fish and chips from the local chippy.


So did I (on a Sunday though) difference was my Gran used to run the local chippie and she was shit hot at what she did fresh everything and done perfectly


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## mentalchik (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> People always say that, but most markets are open weekends. Now supermarkets may well be convenient, but the French also make the effort to travel for their produce.
> 
> *Yes, we do work long hours, but if people were committed enough most could make a market*.




Why do you assume all markets are the same ? The market where i live is not _that_ much cheaper than say Asda (this is the nearest shop where i can buy fairly decent fruit and veg)........


also i look forwards to the weekend for a break from trudging across town and back to work.....it's much the same journey on a saturday to get to the market in town......i am restricted in how much i can buy as i have to carry everything........it may be heresy but i like to spend as little time out of my precious time off work on food shopping as poss !


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> You went to the posh school !
> 
> Our home ec lessons were rubbish.



Hardly - I went to an inner city comprehensive


----------



## trashpony (Oct 1, 2008)

Fuchs66 said:


> I went to a far from posh school and we got taught all sorts of good stuff from pizza to crumble, from pies to lemon curd I think a lot has to do with motivation of kids and staff



I also think it's to do with being older - angel is in her early 20s iirc by which time it seems they phased out domestic science. People in their 30s and 40s were taught to cook (although I confess I wasn't allowed to do the O level because my teacher caught me adding the flour after I'd put the cake in the oven )

We have a shit ready meals culture but I'm not sure fat tongue is the bloke to turn it around


----------



## mentalchik (Oct 1, 2008)

trashpony said:


> I also think it's to do with being older - angel is in her early 20s iirc by which time it seems they phased out domestic science. People in their* 30s and 40s were taught to cook *(although I confess I wasn't allowed to do the O level because my teacher caught me adding the flour after I'd put the cake in the oven )



Dunno where you get this from trashy....................when i left home at 17 i had no idea how to cook.........


mostly ate beans/tomatoes on toast for quite a long time !


I didn't do any cookery at upper school !


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

mentalchik said:


> Why do you assume all markets are the same ? The market where i live is not _that_ much cheaper than say Asda (this is the nearest shop where i can buy fairly decent fruit and veg)........
> 
> 
> also i look forwards to the weekend for a break from trudging across town and back to work.....it's much the same journey on a saturday to get to the market in town......i am restricted in how much i can buy as i have to carry everything........it may be heresy but i like to spend as little time out of my precious time off work on food shopping as poss !



I don't claim that they're all the same at all. But even you, a little reluctantly it seems, concede that your market is slightly cheaper. I'd also wager that discounts on seasonal and end of day produce lead to much bigger savings.

I don't drive either and used to work nights on Friday, but whatever my state I used to get up on Saturday and make it to the market, coming back loaded like a packhorse and with arms shaking for hours afterwards. Partly out of habit, partly because I want to put my money where my mouth is and support local traders. 

Nobody's forcing anyone to go, but I would say the belief that most Brits are too busy to go anywhere else other than the supermarkets is a little false. It does often take effort admittedly, but food's so fundamental to life it's worth the effort. Yes, we do work longer hours, but we've also far more time saving gadgetry, increased leisure time and different expectations.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I've heard Norwegian food isn't up to all that much.



Have to disagree with that I thought the food was great the several times I've been there staying with families


----------



## Fuchs66 (Oct 1, 2008)

Teaboy said:


> Completly agree, there are some shocking cuisines out there.  At least Britain tends to recognise that our traditional stuff is, on the whole, total slurry so we borrow a lot from other cultures.



You are joking traditional cooking is fantastic.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 1, 2008)

mentalchik said:


> Dunno where you get this from trashy....................when i left home at 17 i had no idea how to cook.........
> 
> 
> mostly ate beans/tomatoes on toast for quite a long time !
> ...



Based on the fact that most of the people that said they'd done cookery at school were a bit older than angel. Not the most scientific survey I confess  

My best ever first cookery book was cooking in a bedsitter by katherine whitehorn. It's got some hilarious bits at the back about entertaining people of a different gender (I think it was originally written in the 60s) but it is absolutely brilliant at easy meals which you can make on the hob. I still use her fondue recipe


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

Depends what traditional cooking you're talking about really.

Much of British 'common' food was indeed pretty awful. And when tastes were more advanced, pretty much every 2-bit nobleman was looking to the French for inspiration.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Oct 1, 2008)

trashpony said:


> I also think it's to do with being older - angel is in her early 20s iirc by which time it seems they phased out domestic science. People in their 30s and 40s were taught to cook (although I confess I wasn't allowed to do the O level because my teacher caught me adding the flour after I'd put the cake in the oven )
> 
> We have a shit ready meals culture but I'm not sure fat tongue is the bloke to turn it around



Maybe, we were basically forced to do HE wascompulsory along with needlework and wood and metal work, but cooking is a life skill and that should be incentive enough for everyone to learn the basics, rocket science it aint.

I dont know if he's the right person either but until someone better comes along..... dont forget it is entertainment aswell


----------



## mentalchik (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> I don't claim that they're all the same at all. But even you, a little reluctantly it seems, concede that your market is slightly cheaper. I'd also wager that discounts on seasonal and end of day produce lead to much bigger savings.
> 
> I don't drive either and used to work nights on Friday, but whatever my state I used to get up on Saturday and make it to the market, coming back loaded like a packhorse and with arms shaking for hours afterwards. Partly out of habit, partly because I want to put my money where my mouth is and support local traders.
> 
> Nobody's forcing anyone to go, but I would say the belief that most Brits are too busy to go anywhere else other than the supermarkets is a little false. It does often take effort admittedly, but food's so fundamental to life it's worth the effort. Yes, we do work longer hours, but we've also far more time saving gadgetry, increased leisure time and different expectations.



I concede that some of what you say might be true .......i for one don't have much leisure time apart from weekends.........plus i have to admit to not liking cooking that much......sorry. Ok, i just don't have the enthusiasm to trek round on a saturday to do one part of the food shop..........(i'm not just feeding me by the way)


Anyhoo i realise my viewpoint is a little skewed at the mo as i'm feeling quite low and dispirited with most of everything.......


----------



## scifisam (Oct 1, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> The fact he was supposed to be telling them all to cook healthily and that bit about obesity slightly ill at odds with the fact HE is FAT!



No, he's not. 



zenie said:


> He's from a privileged background, he lives in a different world to the rest of us.



His parents ran a pub. 

Odd things to criticise someone for, on this thread: being fat, when he's not, being from a privileged background, which he's not, and having a speech impediment, which isn't his fault. 



mentalchik said:


> also i look forwards to the weekend for a break from trudging across town and back to work.....it's much the same journey on a saturday to get to the market in town......i am restricted in how much i can buy as i have to carry everything........it may be heresy but i like to spend as little time out of my precious time off work on food shopping as poss !



Shopping trolley. They're quite fashionable now. 



susie12 said:


> Yes.  Having worked with people in that situation, I think he would have been better sitting down with her and eg working out a week's food budget with stuff she could actually make realistically.  Also she lives a way from the supermarket and the takeaway is nearby.  With two kids schlepping to the supermarket is probably difficult and expensive.  I do agree his heart's in the right place but he is a million miles away from the people he's trying to help.  I agree that chucking  crisps and chocolate at the kids comes across as lazy but when you are down and in a dead end situation life is hard, and if she wasn't brought up to cook cheaply and doesn't see it as a priority it's doubly hard.  The problems here are much more complex than he seems to grasp.



That sounds like a more helpful approach than cooking meatballs.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Depends what traditional cooking you're talking about really.
> 
> Much of British 'common' food was indeed pretty awful. And when tastes were more advanced, pretty much every 2-bit nobleman was looking to the French for inspiration.



True I wouldnt recommend a diet of a middle ages serf to anyone but if you move away from that extreme there are some very good traditional meals that can be cooked with only basic skills, got a good cookbook by Gary Rhodes with some great ideas in it mainly traditional British food.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

I don't have that much of a problem with making meatballs if I'm honest. 

It's a good simple introduction to making something more complex than sticking a chunk of meat in a pan and cooking it. And it also uses cheap, easily available mince - easier to pick up and more affordable to choose than most meat cuts, with no real expertise in purchasing meat needed. And they're quite difficult to overcook and ruin too, unlike a chicken piece that you could dry out.

It's also slightly beyond the cliched bolognese option and generally hugely popular with kids ime. It seems a weird thing to criticise him too much for I'm honest - bizarrely meatballs were pretty much the 2nd thing I taught myself to make.


----------



## mentalchik (Oct 1, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Shopping trolley. They're quite fashionable now.



I have toyed with the idea !

I think it's probably more to do with lack of enthusiasm tbh.........not much of that around my head for much at this point !


Plus i work serving food all day and i get sick of the sight sometimes !


----------



## Fuchs66 (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> I don't have that much of a problem with making meatballs if I'm honest.



Oh that was a point I wanted to make too, what is the problem with making meatballs its easy.


----------



## mentalchik (Oct 1, 2008)

I think my main problem is that cooking is a 'chore' for me.........


(i know....shoot me now)


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

I think people were claiming that feeling the meat (heh) would be offputting. Squeamish weirdos. - you've got to start somewhere.

It's a really good building block for future cooking if I'm honest. Meatloaves, burgers, other types of ball, they'll all use much the same technique.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Oct 1, 2008)

Yes but its a chore that should be essential IMO


----------



## tarannau (Oct 1, 2008)

mentalchik said:


> I think my main problem is that cooking is a 'chore' for me.........
> 
> 
> (i know....shoot me now)



To be fair, going to the supermarket's a chore for me too. It just seems so predictable, so consistently anodyne that if I did the vast majority of my shopping there I suspect I'd become jaded too.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> I think people were claiming that feeling the meat (heh) would be offputting. Squeamish weirdos. - you've got to start somewhere.



Never understood that if your too squeamish to touch the stuff why stuff it down your throat?


----------



## mentalchik (Oct 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> To be fair, going to the supermarket's a chore for me too. It just seems so predictable, so consistently anodyne that if I did the vast majority of my shopping there I suspect I'd become jaded too.



I don't do 'big' shops anyhoo........just in and out couple times a week !


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## ethel (Oct 1, 2008)

look at his meatballs recipe though!

http://www.jamiespassitoncampaign.com/meatballs_with_spaghetti.html


huge list of ingredients including pricey things like balsamic vinegar and parmesan.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 1, 2008)

Fuchs66 said:


> You are joking traditional cooking is fantastic.



Yep. Shepherd's pie, pies of all kinds, stews, roast dinners, oh, now I'm hungry! But a lot of people (youngish people, anyway) don't know how to do proper traditional cooking. 



tarannau said:


> I don't have that much of a problem with making meatballs if I'm honest.
> 
> It's a good simple introduction to making something more complex than sticking a chunk of meat in a pan and cooking it. And it also uses cheap, easily available mince - easier to pick up and more affordable to choose than most meat cuts, with no real expertise in purchasing meat needed. And they're quite difficult to overcook and ruin too, unlike a chicken piece that you could dry out.
> 
> It's also slightly beyond the cliched bolognese option and generally hugely popular with kids ime. It seems a weird thing to criticise him too much for I'm honest - bizarrely meatballs were pretty much the 2nd thing I taught myself to make.



True. But for people that live purely on takeaways and have never really cooked at all, it'd be better to start with just sticking a chunk of meat in a pan and cooking it.



mentalchik said:


> I have toyed with the idea !
> 
> I think it's probably more to do with lack of enthusiasm tbh.........not much of that around my head for much at this point !
> 
> ...



That's understandable. Guess you don't really have much choice but to cook now and then, though (and reheat the leftovers).


----------



## scifisam (Oct 1, 2008)

sarahluv said:


> look at his meatballs recipe though!
> 
> http://www.jamiespassitoncampaign.com/meatballs_with_spaghetti.html
> 
> ...



That's not a huge list of ingredients. Meat, herbs, oil, spaghetti. The parmesan's optional, for topping. Balsamic vinegar is a bit pricey, though (we always use it anyway).


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## Fuchs66 (Oct 1, 2008)

sarahluv said:


> look at his meatballs recipe though!
> 
> http://www.jamiespassitoncampaign.com/meatballs_with_spaghetti.html
> 
> ...



Yes but little Jamie aint the only source of recipes there are lots of easy ways of cooking which can be readily found, we've all here got access to the internet for example.


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## ethel (Oct 1, 2008)

scifisam said:


> That's not a huge list of ingredients. Meat, herbs, oil, spaghetti. The parmesan's optional, for topping. Balsamic vinegar is a bit pricey, though (we always use it anyway).



16! if i'd never cooking before i'd find that a bit daunting. no mention of the overall time it takes to prepare it either.

looking at some of his other recipes though they are even worse. proscuitto!

http://www.jamiespassitoncampaign.com/parmesan_chicken_with_posh_ham.html


i like the "preferably free range of organic" thing tagged onto all of the meat too. guilt trip ahoy!


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## ethel (Oct 1, 2008)

Fuchs66 said:


> Yes but little Jamie aint the only source of recipes there are lots of easy ways of cooking which can be readily found, we've all here got access to the internet for example.



argh! i mean that if he's trying to show people on a very limited budget and who have no confidence in their cooking abilities, simple, quick and cheap recipes, then he is failing.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Oct 1, 2008)

sarahluv said:


> argh! i mean that if he's trying to show people on a very limited budget and who have no confidence in their cooking abilities, simple, quick and cheap recipes, then he is failing.



I can see what you mean maybe I'm talking from a more general POV but like I said earlier its also entertainment and isnt purely made for charitable reasons ie appeal to the widest audience possible.


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## Fuchs66 (Oct 1, 2008)

sarahluv said:


> i like the "preferably free range of organic" thing tagged onto all of the meat too. guilt trip ahoy!



and thats a load of bollocks IMO free range organic pah good food doesnt have to be organic


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## ethel (Oct 1, 2008)

Fuchs66 said:


> and thats a load of bollocks IMO free range organic pah good food doesnt have to be organic




indeed.


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## trashpony (Oct 1, 2008)

scifisam said:


> That's not a huge list of ingredients. Meat, herbs, oil, spaghetti. The parmesan's optional, for topping. Balsamic vinegar is a bit pricey, though (we always use it anyway).



A bottle of balsamic is a couple of quid max. Much cheaper than a takeaway every night


----------



## scifisam (Oct 1, 2008)

sarahluv said:


> 16! if i'd never cooking before i'd find that a bit daunting. no mention of the overall time it takes to prepare it either.
> 
> looking at some of his other recipes though they are even worse. proscuitto!



That's including ingredients like oil, though, all the herbs listed separately, and the spaghetti itself. It's not a complicated recipe. It's not a good starter dish, but that's not the fault of this particular recipe. 



trashpony said:


> A bottle of balsamic is a couple of quid max. Much cheaper than a takeaway every night



It would be good to include a cheaper alternative in the recipe, though. 

Actually, I guess this isn't aimed at poor people necessarily, is it? Just people who can't cook, whatever their class or income.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 1, 2008)

trashpony said:


> I also think it's to do with being older - angel is in her early 20s iirc by which time it seems they phased out domestic science.



I think she's around my age actually and we're from the same city. I think it was down to pot luck actually - some schools had Home Ec departments, some didn't.


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## trashpony (Oct 1, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> I think she's around my age actually and we're from the same city. I think it was down to pot luck actually - some schools had Home Ec departments, some didn't.



Really? I thought she was much younger 

Terrible thing though - we all need to learn to cook (and I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about parenting classes too but that's another thread)


----------



## YouSir (Oct 1, 2008)

Ignoring the issues under debate for a moment can I just say that Jamie Oliver is a worthless, self-important cunt who for all his moralising about saving the country from it's terrible diet wouldn't lift a fucking finger beyond that which is demanded at his restaurant(s?) were he not paid a fortune to turn up on screen and play the Mockney cunt bit.


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## Pie 1 (Oct 1, 2008)

YouSir said:


> Ignoring the issues under debate for a moment can I just say that Jamie Oliver is a worthless, self-important cunt who for all his moralising about saving the country from it's terrible diet wouldn't lift a fucking finger beyond that which is demanded at his restaurant(s?) were he not paid a fortune to turn up on screen and play the Mockney cunt bit.



Fucks sake.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 1, 2008)

Ah, forgot that one, in a list of stupid things to mock someone for - him having an Essex accent. How terrible of him!


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## Epona (Oct 1, 2008)

Teaboy said:


> It's because it's foreign and wierd.  My Dad was exactly the same, he just wanted tasteless stodge and lots of it.  No wonder my mum hated cooking, it must be terribly depressing cooking for someone who has so little appreciation of food.



I can see how that may be a reason for some people.  

However because I raised the whole never having pasta as a kid thing I do feel the need to point out that there are other reasons for not ever having it, and my family most certainly do not come into the 'because it's foreign and weird' category!  

Certainly with my parents, I think growing up and being exposed to their first experiences of and lessons about cooking during the period of food rationing had a major input into the type of food we were eating (some years later of course!) as kids.  My parents wouldn't have had much exposure to pasta themselves - living in a rural area their families could supplement rationing as far as potatoes go very easily - growing their own in garden plots or allotments, deals with local farmers etc.  You cannot say the same for pasta or the ingredients to even make it from scratch which require processing from the grown form before you can even start.  If you go from the starting point that many people grew up with that experience, it's not hard to see how every meal they learn and think of as easy and normal is based around potatoes and other easily grown veg.

It's also the case that when you have experienced poverty for some time and are on a tight budget with young kids (who can be notoriously fussy about trying new things), then it actually becomes quite a large budgetary risk to try cooking something that you've not experienced before - certainly back in the 60s and 70s there weren't the available range of ingredients that we take for granted today, and anything slightly off the 'mainstream' of meat & 2 veg cooking tended to cost more (including pasta, this is back when potatoes were dirt cheap and pasta was expensive in comparison - if anything the opposite is true today).  What if you don't like it, what if you can't cook it and it goes wrong because it's more complicated than what you usually cook?  Wasted food, or grumbles about food, were absolutely not on in my family when we were struggling.  The food budget covered tried and tested meals that my mum knew were cheap and that us kids would eat.  Her dislike of cooking (although her baking is great!) and lack of confidence in her cooking abilities were also a factor, but very far down the list from financial concerns.

Thirdly when I were a nipper there simply wasn't the range of ingredients and produce that we take for granted today, and poorer people in general often didn't have the opportunity to experience different cuisines - far fewer people went to restaurants back then - for us and many others back then, "eating out" meant dressing up and going to a Happy Eater or similar for scampi & chips as a once a year thing on your birthday, Berni Inn was out of our league.  The culture of eating out has (thank fuck!!!) changed considerably since then.

Things did change in our family - mostly due to a bit of an improvement in finances which meant my parents were OK with letting their 10 year old daughter potentially wreck a load of relatively pricy (seafood mostly) ingredients trying to make her first paella  - that and the fact I was introduced to different foods by friends whos families actually had holidays abroad and wanted to try to cook them - things that we had never had the opportunity to try or even in some cases know they existed.  It was never a lack of willingness, just the limited ration years cooking they themselves had grown up with and lack of exposure to anything different.  They've been vegetarian for the last 20 years, something that certainly doesn't involve the meat & 2 veg cooking they grew up with.


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## ethel (Oct 1, 2008)

epona, i think your mum is my mum!


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## rover07 (Oct 1, 2008)

The programme would make a great idea for a cook book. 'Jamie Olivers easy cooking guide' or something like that, maybe Sainsburys could sponsor him.


----------



## Part 2 (Oct 2, 2008)

Hope this is on catch up, have to check tomorrow.

I got to page 4, anything I missed after that?


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## fractionMan (Oct 2, 2008)

He may be an annoying mokney bastard but he's doing a good job of raising food awareness.  Nowt wrong in pointing out that spending shit loads on takeaways is bad for your health _and_ your wallet.

Removing ignorance is a noble cause imo.  He should be applauded for doing something positive rather than villified for being middle class.


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## cesare (Oct 2, 2008)

I didn't see the JO programme but on a slight (but related) tangent - did anyone watch the series on Saturday mornings straight after Saturday Kitchen? Where different chefs took on the takeaway challenge. 

These chefs were going into people's homes, using whatever ingredients/equipment was already there plus buying the rest (from a local supermarket) then cooking the same/equiv meal as the takeaway that people ordered.

They were scored on cost, time and taste against the takeaway.

They were also showing the people what they were doing/explaining/getting them to help.

Very entertaining plus I thought it was a really good way of demonstrating that cooking from scratch needn't be costly (even with limited ingredients and utensils) and often tastier than takeaway.

Mind you, all of these programmes will only appeal to people that have any kind of interest in watching them in the first place.


----------



## moonsi til (Oct 2, 2008)

^^^ to cesare. Jamie was on Johnathon Ross on Friday and said something along the lines of this new venture being about trying to reach the people who wouldn't get excited about a food/cooking programme.

He raised the issue of preaching to the converted and spoke of tackling it via the food shop and the friend teach a frend teach a friend method.

I didn't see the programme but I like him and respect and appreciate what he is doing.


----------



## Epona (Oct 2, 2008)

moonsi til said:


> I didn't see the programme but I like him and respect and appreciate what he is doing.



I'd heard mixed reviews about the programme before I watched it.  Some said he was patronising but I didn't really get that.  True he doesn't understand what it can be like to be in that situation, but he realised that and admitted it.  What a lot of people don't realise is that it's not just a lack of money and that everything else in your life is the same as if you had a bit more cash - it's the despair, the stress, the fatigue, a very limited ability to make choices or have any sort of control over your own existance, and more than that the knowledge that it is almost certainly going to be the same struggle to get by _every single day for the rest of your life_ - it completely exhausts and grinds the life out of you in a way that no-one who hasn't been through it can truly understand.  It's really not easy to be inspired to cook when your life sucks that bloody much.  Everyone knows the old adage that money can't buy happiness, but it's equally true that poverty and debt can buy you an awful lot of misery and sense of failure and low self worth.

But really that isn't his fault.  He is giving something a try and I don't think that's worthless.  I don't think he'll change much in the absence of some sort of social change, but this programme certainly isn't the worst thing in the world, and was quite watchable.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2008)

moonsi til said:


> ^^^ to cesare. Jamie was on Johnathon Ross on Friday and said something along the lines of this new venture being about trying to reach the people who wouldn't get excited about a food/cooking programme.
> 
> He raised the issue of preaching to the converted and spoke of tackling it via the food shop and the friend teach a frend teach a friend method.
> 
> I didn't see the programme but I like him and respect and appreciate what he is doing.



Ah, ok, ta. So it wasn't just trailers advertising it then. 

As far as JO goes, I've got mixed views. I liked the idea of raising the issue of the standard of school dinners & also about encouraging the teaching of basic nutrition/cooking skills. But I do find him irritating 

Incidentally, I did HE at comp similar to Kanda's description and it was good and taught well, and sfa at grammar. Also, Brownies/Guides used to teach this stuff too, and whilst you can criticise the religion/history etc they were another good source for teaching kids what they need to know.


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## Cloud (Oct 2, 2008)

moonsi til said:


> Jamie was on Johnathon Ross on Friday and said something along the lines of this new venture being about trying to reach the people who wouldn't get excited about a food/cooking programme.
> 
> He raised the issue of preaching to the converted and spoke of tackling it via the food shop and the friend teach a frend teach a friend method.
> 
> I didn't see the programme but I like him and respect and appreciate what he is doing.



What a cunt he is.

Anyone who has spent time on little income will know you HAVE to learn to cook to get by.

I can't belive anyone would sing praise for his "efforts" when it's all about the gravy train for Oliver (excuse the pun).

and he works for the gov propoganda department for sure


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## albionism (Oct 2, 2008)

.


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## miniGMgoit (Oct 2, 2008)

I dont think there is any real excuse to not be able to cook. I was lucky and brought up around home cooked food. I never once made anything but had the general idea about. When I moved away from home I just made it up as I went along. 

What I would say to people who claim to not be able to cook. Have you not heard of reicipe books?

Unless you cant read there real is no excuse


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## bmd (Oct 2, 2008)

Epona said:


> I'd heard mixed reviews about the programme before I watched it.  Some said he was patronising but I didn't really get that.  True he doesn't understand what it can be like to be in that situation, but he realised that and admitted it.  What a lot of people don't realise is that it's not just a lack of money and that everything else in your life is the same as if you had a bit more cash - it's the despair, the stress, the fatigue, a very limited ability to make choices or have any sort of control over your own existance, and more than that the knowledge that it is almost certainly going to be the same struggle to get by _every single day for the rest of your life_ - it completely exhausts and grinds the life out of you in a way that no-one who hasn't been through it can truly understand.  It's really not easy to be inspired to cook when your life sucks that bloody much.  Everyone knows the old adage that money can't buy happiness, but it's equally true that poverty and debt can buy you an awful lot of misery and sense of failure and low self worth.
> 
> But really that isn't his fault.  He is giving something a try and I don't think that's worthless.  I don't think he'll change much in the absence of some sort of social change, but this programme certainly isn't the worst thing in the world, and was quite watchable.



To everyone who is self-righteously saying that there is no excuse for not cooking, have a read of this post. Walk a mile in their shoes and then blether on with your judgemental nonsense.


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## Pie 1 (Oct 2, 2008)

Cloud said:


> What a *cunt *he is.



Why is he deserving of such venomous delivery of this insult?

Yes he's loaded - through great luck & hard work - that's his job & he's good at what he does tbf.
Yes it's easy to find the guy fucking irritating but Jesus, at least he's making an effort. No?
No matter how mis guided you may think it is, I don't see any of his peers doing anything remotely similar. 
Would you rather he just sat on his pile shitting out the same re packaged cookbook once a year & attending film premiers?

It's a textbook, Damned if he does - Damned if he doesn't.


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## Geri (Oct 2, 2008)

mentalchik said:


> I think my main problem is that cooking is a 'chore' for me.........
> 
> 
> (i know....shoot me now)



I like cooking if I am in the mood, but when you have been at work all day and you are knackered, it can be very hard to summon up the energy and enthusiasm.

I ussed to cook a whole batch of food at weekends, when I had more time, and freeze individual portions, but I haven't done that for ages. I should really try and get more organised.

As for Jamie Oliver, I can understand why people think he is annoying (I used to as well until I saw some re-rusn of Jamie's Kitchen) but I think his heart is in the right place.


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## mrsfran (Oct 2, 2008)

Cloud said:


> What a cunt he is.
> 
> Anyone who has spent time on little income will know you HAVE to learn to cook to get by.
> 
> ...


 
This programme was about people on little income who have never learned to cook. Clearly, you don't HAVE to learn to cook, because these people never had. Did you actually watch the programme?


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## _angel_ (Oct 2, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> Hardly - I went to an inner city comprehensive



It's not an innercity!!


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## _angel_ (Oct 2, 2008)

miniGMgoit said:


> *I dont think there is any real excuse to not be able to cook*. I was lucky and brought up around home cooked food. I never once made anything but had the general idea about. When I moved away from home I just made it up as I went along.
> 
> What I would say to people who claim to not be able to cook. Have you not heard of reicipe books?
> 
> Unless you cant read there real is no excuse



Not having enough money for the ingredients? I bought a load of ingredients for a birthday cake last week and it was expensive! I could have bought a cake for about six times less.


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## trashpony (Oct 2, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> To everyone who is self-righteously saying that there is no excuse for not cooking, have a read of this post. Walk a mile in their shoes and then blether on with your judgemental nonsense.



But it's a vicious circle isn't it? It's not going to help the way you feel if you're constantly under-nourished (and I do believe that people who exist on takeaways and processed food are likely to be missing vital nutrients) so then you've got no energy and you can't be arsed and on it goes. If I don't eat fresh fruit or veg for a couple of days I can really feel it


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## foamy (Oct 2, 2008)

zenie said:


> Also worth mentioning is the women who worked full-time but said they didn't have time to teach anyone else, they looked quite well off from their hair/clothes/make up (I know it's not a great indicator but still) do people know who I mean?



i know who you mean and I think Jamie highlighted this at the meeting in the pub where he said some people were 'Can Do' and some people were 'Can't Do'.

I think Jamie has his work cut out trying to change peoples habits from opting for the ease of cheap takeaways to putting some effort into making their own food.

If you are going to teach someone a recipe it takes no extra time than inviting someone round for dinner, and then preparing a meal which you then eat, together. But I also agree with people's suggestions of teaching people much less labour intensive recipes to begin with.

Fabric Live Baby - in one of your first posts on here you said people should cook for themselves as mince is cheap (which good mince certainly isn't in my experience, not compared to veggies) then pointed out the meat in kebabs would be shit, is that not the same as cheap mince?


And on the issue of the programme being set in the north, Hugh's Chicken Run was set in Devon and came across people on benefits with similar attitudes to the people in Rotherham.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 2, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> It's not an innercity!!


It is!


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## kabbes (Oct 2, 2008)

foamy said:


> Fabric Live Baby - in one of your first posts on here you said people should cook for themselves as mince is cheap (which good mince certainly isn't in my experience, not compared to veggies) then pointed out the meat in kebabs would be shit, is that not the same as cheap mince?


Vegemince is considerably cheaper than meat mince, considerably healthier than meat mince and considerably tastier with a better texture than meat mince.  I would never use meat mince any more for all these reasons alone.  People don't even try it though, because they have some kind of bizarre prejudice about using something that is labelled as "vegetarian".

Just to show what I am talking about, I relay this anecdote: Having made a shepherd's pie with vegemince, we unexpectedly then had a friend for dinner -- one that is generally pretty hardcore about never eating vegetables.  So I just didn't tell him that it was made with vegemince and, lo and behold, he ate it all and proclaimed it the best shepherd's pie he'd ever had.   Never even realised.


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Vegemince is considerably cheaper than meat mince, considerably healthier than meat mince and considerably tastier with a better texture than meat mince.  I would never use meat mince any more for all these reasons alone.  People don't even try it though, because they have some kind of bizarre prejudice about using something that is labelled as "vegetarian".



This is bollocks and you clearly have no tastebuds.

I don't mind vegemince fwiw, but to say it has a better taste than meat mince is frankly ridiculous. I can understand different taste preferences, but vegemince hardly has a taste - it's like saying plastic mild cheddar tastes better than proper cheese.


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## scifisam (Oct 2, 2008)

Cloud said:


> What a cunt he is.
> 
> Anyone who has spent time on little income will know you HAVE to learn to cook to get by.
> 
> ...



As far as I can tell, his idea has nothing to do with income - there are plenty of people with a good income who have nevertheless not learnt how to cook. Besides, it's bollocks that you have to learn how to cook if you have little money - it's the sensible thing to do, but not everyone does it.


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## foamy (Oct 2, 2008)

Kabbes - absolutely, i can go days without eating meat and don't feel like i've missed out but the other half starts complaining after a few days. Since Hughs chicken run we've made a concerted effort only to buy good quality meat and it's not cheap!
In my mind it's a bit of a luxury TBH


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## kabbes (Oct 2, 2008)

That's ridiculous (tarannau).  Vegemince has a much more enhanced taste that meat mince.

Mind you, you can't use it for making things like burgers or meatballs.  But we were just talking about things like bolognese and shepherd's pies, which is where the stuff comes into its own.


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## kained&able (Oct 2, 2008)

go to a butchers.

usually cheaper minc then super markets and much better quality.

I think its about time the myth of supermakrkets being cheap is dispelled. Its only true for 20./50 core products(beans, sliced bread, oj etc) rest of the time its normally cheaper at "specialist" reatailers.

dave


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

Meat is a luxury, but replacing meat with substitute products is almost guaranteed to remind omnivores what they're missing. Trying to pretend that the substitute tastes better is likely to be made of fail - if you did the Oliver meatball recipe with vegemince for example, the sauce would lack depth and the extra flavour from the beef.

Tonight I probably won't eat meat - it'll be a veg filled curry affair of some kind - and I won't miss it. The same wouldn't be true if I had a TVP/beanfeats/Quorn bolognese.


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## scifisam (Oct 2, 2008)

Oh God, is it time for the anti-meat substitutes argument AGAIN? It must be what, a whole five days since the last time!


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

kabbes said:


> That's ridiculous (tarannau).  Vegemince has a much more enhanced taste that meat mince.
> 
> Mind you, you can't use it for making things like burgers or meatballs.  But we were just talking about things like bolognese and shepherd's pies, which is where the stuff comes into its own.



Enhanced? With what? You're having a bloody laugh.

Kabbes, I usually use your posts as an indication of wrongness, but you've excelled yourself here. You make a bolognese of vegemince and it won't taste like a bolognese - it's meant to be a meaty pasta sauce, not a sea of crappy dolmio-like redness with a few random chunks of artificial protein. 

For the last time I don't mind Quorn or similar TVP substances, which can work well in the right situation. But pretending that they taste better or equivalent rather than different and slightly anodyne is really daft.


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## Stoat Boy (Oct 2, 2008)

Mixed feelings on this.

On the one hand its just more 'white trash' TV which seems to be made solely for the pleasure/horror of the monied middle class who can wrinkle their noses in digust.

But on the other hand seeing a woman with a 5 year old girl who has never eaten a home cooked meal and has had to have two teeth removed because they are rotten makes you realise that something has gone horribly wrong with a section of our society. And the food choices these people make is merely a sympton rather than the cause of the malise. 

Its a good idea for a programe but I feel uncomfortable with him doing it.


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## zenie (Oct 2, 2008)

scifisam said:


> His parents ran a pub.


 
and? I'd say that was a much more privileged background than the people on the show!



scifisam said:


> Ah, forgot that one, in a list of stupid things to mock someone for - him having an Essex accent. How terrible of him!


 
I wasn't mocking him, just explaining why he has no empathy with people in that situation. 

I think he does a lot of good, some people just like to put a negative spin on stuff innit?


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

It's quite a posh pub/restaurant too, and I believe his folks own it rather than manage, which is surprisingly rare and profitable.

I saw the whole programme last night and I must admit to being shocked by some of the unwarranted, finger-waggling condemnation on this thread. One of the women was a mother of 2 at 22 - she'd have  been 17 when she had her first kid. It's hardly that surprising that she hasn't learnt that many culinary skills with that in mind.


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## scifisam (Oct 2, 2008)

zenie said:


> and? I'd say that was a much more privileged background than the people on the show!



You said 'He's from a privileged background, he lives in a different world to the rest of us,' not that he's more privileged than a single Mum on benefits, though we don't know her background either. If running a pub makes you privileged, then the people on here whose parents were teachers or office workers are practically royalty!



> I wasn't mocking him, just explaining why he has no empathy with people in that situation.



It's probably more his adult life that's caused that, though, when he's worked hard but also had some luck and not had to worry about money. As a kid, in a pub, it's very likely that he met an awful lot of people who were broke all the time. 



> I think he does a lot of good, some people just like to put a negative spin on stuff innit?



Yeah - I wasn't having a go at you personally with my comment about it being weird to mock him for things which either aren't true or aren't his fault - it's just that yours was the last one quoted.


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Oh God, is it time for the anti-meat substitutes argument AGAIN? It must be what, a whole five days since the last time!



I think you'll find that it's the 'pro' meat-substitute folks making the silly claims. Well, only one in fact

They're provoking me guvnor, with their defective tastebuds and unsupportable assertions.


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## kained&able (Oct 2, 2008)

why? I was able to cook quite well at 17.

certainly well enough to make a passable spag bol and bangers and mash and a fair few of the basic dishes.

dave


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

scifisam said:


> You said 'He's from a privileged background, he lives in a different world to the rest of us,' not that he's more privileged than a single Mum on benefits, though we don't know her background either. If running a pub makes you privileged, then the people on here whose parents were teachers or office workers are practically royalty!



Running a pub may not make you priveleged - I ran plenty and I'm a scrubber, but owning a pub like that is a different, potentially far more profitable matter.


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

kained&able said:


> why? I was able to cook quite well at 17.
> 
> certainly well enough to make a passable spag bol and bangers and mash and a fair few of the basic dishes.
> 
> dave



Because not everyone's the same Dave. For all we know her mum may have never cooked a meal for her either, nor shown her anything. 

I suspect a high proportion of folks on Urban learnt a lot of their cooking skills at University. Those on the programme look as though they've missed that stage and experience.


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## ringo (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> I saw the whole programme last night and I must admit to being shocked by some of the unwarranted, finger-waggling condemnation on this thread.



This.

From the discussion here I thought these women were stupid and didn't care about their kids. That couldn't be further from the truth. Natasha (I think it was), was trapped by poverty and the way of life she'd been leading. She desperately wanted better for her kids and to break free from the take-away routine. As everyone should know, changing your whole way of life is difficult, confusing, stressful and can take a lot of time, energy and commitment.

The anti-Jamie Oliver comments are quite hard to fathom too. I thought he came across as very honest, hard working and genuine.


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## Stoat Boy (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> I saw the whole programme last night and I must admit to being shocked by some of the unwarranted, finger-waggling condemnation on this thread. One of the women was a mother of 2 at 22 - she'd have  been 17 when she had her first kid. It's hardly that surprising that she hasn't learnt that many culinary skills with that in mind.




And that for me is what this programe should really be about. Girls having babies at 17 is not good at all. You could see she was unable to cope with things, let alone being expected to cook. 

For me this is why I have to side with those who think the programe is just exploitation because somehow just teaching this girl to be able to knock up some meat balls and then thinking its going to solve her problems whilst making us all feel warm and comfy is a load of bollocks.

What it should be asking is why she had a kid at 17 when her own life had barely begun.


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## kained&able (Oct 2, 2008)

I just resent the assertion that a 17 year old mum can't have possibly learnt to cook.

Not sure its how you meant it but thats  sounds a bit classist(for want of a better term).

She may not have had a mum who cooked ever, but she would have had the same access to tv cooking programmes and a liabery to grab cook books from. So if she viewed it as an essential skill she could have learnt.

dave


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## mentalchik (Oct 2, 2008)

kained&able said:


> why? I was able to cook quite well at 17.
> 
> certainly well enough to make a passable spag bol and bangers and mash and a fair few of the basic dishes.
> 
> dave





Well well done you then...........i came from a household where my mum home cooked (we very rarely had take aways etc) and i had absolutely no idea how to cook much of anything when i left home at 17. Was never interested in cooking.....still not really !


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## Kanda (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Because not everyone's the same Dave. For all we know her mum may have never cooked a meal for her either, nor shown her anything.
> 
> I suspect a high proportion of folks on Urban learnt a lot of their cooking skills at University. Those on the programme look as though they've missed that stage and experience.



I learnt by having to, having left home,  just as they could have...?

Uni teaches you to cook these days does it?


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## kained&able (Oct 2, 2008)

mentalchik said:


> Well well done you then...........i came from a household where my mum home cooked (we very rarely had take aways etc) and i had absolutely no idea how to cook much of anything when i left home at 17. Was never interested in cooking.....still not really !


 
and thats fair enough. If your not intrested your not going to bother at least untill you find that you need to. Which in your case is probabley not going to happen(not a dig).

dave


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

Kanda said:


> I learnt by having to, having left home,  just as they could have...?
> 
> Uni teaches you to cook these days does it?



Well it's a bit different to be at university spending your parents' and the governments grant/loan money on cooking for one. And at least there you're generally surrounded by campus shops and some people who may know a little more about cooking and different foods.

And another thing entirely to be stuck on a more remote estate on your tod away from the shops, with a strictly limited amount to spend on family meals. That would kind of discourage experimentation for me, particularly if takeaways and poor quality food is all you've known.

I did actually end up teaching a fair few students at uni how to cook. I was shocked by how little some people knew, and these were theoretically quite intelligent people


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## Stoat Boy (Oct 2, 2008)

ringo said:


> The anti-Jamie Oliver comments are quite hard to fathom too. I thought he came across as very honest, hard working and genuine.




I find it hard to disagree with you but he is such a product of the whole fabricated TV culture ( witness his first series and all his 'wacky' mates who turned out to be hired help ) that he just has no real credibility.

But perhaps thats more a reflection on me and my view of the whole thing. 

I guess its not going to do any harm but I do think its just putting a sticking plaster on wider social issues which could use the TV coverage.


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## kained&able (Oct 2, 2008)

Kanda said:


> I learnt by having to, having left home, just as they could have...?
> 
> Uni teaches you to cook these days does it?


 
I lerant cos i had to as well. both my parents worked and both tended to work on saturday so i learned early how to use a microwave, got bored and wanted more food so learned how to use the oven, got bored got my mum to show me how to cook a few things, got bored started cooking my own stuff.

dave


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

Stoat Boy said:


> And that for me is what this programe should really be about. Girls having babies at 17 is not good at all. You could see she was unable to cope with things, let alone being expected to cook.
> 
> For me this is why I have to side with those who think the programe is just exploitation because somehow just teaching this girl to be able to knock up some meat balls and then thinking its going to solve her problems whilst making us all feel warm and comfy is a load of bollocks.
> 
> What it should be asking is why she had a kid at 17 when her own life had barely begun.



I don't think even Oliver's claiming that. But the link between diet, health and happiness is often hugely understated. Changing a fundamentally awful diet could lead to huge changes in a lot more areas that stomach satisfaction.

There aren't many immediate answers in the short term to much wider issues of deprivation and borderline poverty, but food's a reasonable place to make a start on imo.


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## Kanda (Oct 2, 2008)

kained&able said:


> I lerant cos i had to as well. both my parents worked and both tended to work on saturday so i learned early how to use a microwave, got bored and wanted more food so learned how to use the oven, got bored got my mum to show me how to cook a few things, got bored started cooking my own stuff.
> 
> dave



Well yeah, I left home just before I was 16, lived in a YMCA flat and was earning £65 a week.. had to teach myself. It's not actually THAT hard!

Now however, I live on takeouts  (Joke!)


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## kained&able (Oct 2, 2008)

Oh and at uni i found that most people didn't cook anything more then frozwen food or some pasta.

All the people who cooked anything could cook anyway with about one exception who decided to start cooking as if me and someone else could do it then it can't be that hard innit.

dave


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## mentalchik (Oct 2, 2008)

kained&able said:


> and thats fair enough. If your not intrested your not going to bother at least untill you find that you need to. Which in your case is probabley not going to happen(not a dig).
> 
> dave




The ironic thing is (going by others reactions) i'm actually quite a good cook !

Years of 'having' to do it for others and especially on a low budget for the last few years have kinda taken the joy out of it........it's something that has to be done....a bit like the housework, iyswim !

It's interesting too about the amount of people with what i would call real over the top food faddiness.......i work serving staff food all day (staff cafe) and the amount of fussing etc astounds me !


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## kained&able (Oct 2, 2008)

I've yet to see a law that says if your good at something you must do it.


dave


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## _angel_ (Oct 2, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> It is!



It is a suburb!


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## _angel_ (Oct 2, 2008)

Stoat Boy said:


> And that for me is what this programe should really be about. Girls having babies at 17 is not good at all. You could see she was unable to cope with things, let alone being expected to cook.
> 
> For me this is why I have to side with those who think the programe is just exploitation because somehow just teaching this girl to be able to knock up some meat balls and then thinking its going to solve her problems whilst making us all feel warm and comfy is a load of bollocks.
> 
> What it should be asking is why she had a kid at 17 when her own life had barely begun.



Not everyone who has a kid at seventeen 'can't cook' or is automatically a bad parent. It's just too fashionable to dismiss it as an automatically bad thing.


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## mrsfran (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau - I don't know if anyone on this thread learned to cook because of/while they were at uni. I didn't - I only learned afterwards, while I was on JSA. I'm not sure your assertion that going to uni somehow makes you more able to learn how to cook really holds.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 2, 2008)

I didn't do much cooking at uni! I made bolognese and the odd pasta dish but ate things like pie and mash and that sort of thing.


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

It's not going to be the same for everyone, but University widens your social circle and your experiences in general. The same's not true if you've spent your life in Rotherham and then become largely housebound with the kids.

And I can only speak from personal experience when I say that I watched a lot of people learning cooking basics at Uni - not least incidents watching people try and cook (dry) pasta without water, adding spray cream to a curry and trying to reheat the kettle in a microwave. And I experienced TVP and Beanfeast from a veggie housemate, plus the way of tofu from an exchange student in the first few weeks.


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## Stoat Boy (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> I don't think even Oliver's claiming that. But the link between diet, health and happiness is often hugely understated. Changing a fundamentally awful diet could lead to huge changes in a lot more areas that stomach satisfaction.
> 
> There aren't many immediate answers in the short term to much wider issues of deprivation and borderline poverty, but food's a reasonable place to make a start on imo.




I dont disagree with this at all but I do wonder about how much this programe is really about educating people and trying to improve their lives as opposed to just being a promotional vehicle for Oliver and the whole TV battle of the chefs that we seem to have. 

What would have been better would to have perhaps tried to team up those who cannot cook with older residents of the town who can and then provide the support and help that it would need. Then you might see something approaching the old order of things coming to the fore again. 

Part of me wants to dislike Jamie Oliver but it is hard to do but I cannot help not trusting the true motives of those behind the programe.


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## mrsfran (Oct 2, 2008)

Just because I'm interested, I've done a poll over in Suburban: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=265445


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## _angel_ (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> It's not going to be the same for everyone, but University widens your social circle and your experiences in general. The same's not true if you've spent your life in Rotherham and then become largely housebound with the kids.
> 
> And I can only speak from personal experience when I say that I watched a lot of people learning cooking basics at Uni - not least incidents watching people try and cook (dry) pasta without water, adding spray cream to a curry and trying to reheat the kettle in a microwave. And I experienced TVP and Beanfeast from a veggie housemate, plus the way of tofu from an exchange student in the first few weeks.




hmm I think this idea middle class kids 'can' cook and working class ones 'can't' is a bit divisive. The idea we 'learned' to cook at university - I didn't! I've only started being a bit more adventurous now, and that is when I'm stuck home with the kids.

Lots of middle class people may not be able to cook - but living off M and S ready meals for one is seen as far more acceptable than living on Iceland bargains. Think this is the only real difference.


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## mrsfran (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> It's not going to be the same for everyone, but University widens your social circle and your experiences in general. The same's not true if you've spent your life in Rotherham and then become largely housebound with the kids.
> 
> And I can only speak from personal experience when I say that I watched a lot of people learning cooking basics at Uni - not least incidents watching people try and cook (dry) pasta without water, adding spray cream to a curry and trying to reheat the kettle in a microwave. And I experienced TVP and Beanfeast from a veggie housemate, plus the way of tofu from an exchange student in the first few weeks.


 
I actually cried with laughter when I first read about your friend who did the spray cream on the curry


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## kained&able (Oct 2, 2008)

kettle in the microweave????


oooops.

dave


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

Why does Oliver need any more promotion? He can live happily from the proceeds of his books and restaurants now, without the hassle of being accused of being a meddling southern jessie or similar. I don't believe his motivation is self-promotion and cash - don't like the bloke particularly, but there are easier ways to make yourself loved.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

missfran said:


> I actually cried with laughter when I first read about your friend who did the spray cream on the curry



We still wind her up about it today. She's a high flier in the Wesminster lobbies now.



I know many may not learn much of culinary worth at University, but it's a 'natural' break from home and people generally prepare themselves.


----------



## bmd (Oct 2, 2008)

trashpony said:


> But it's a vicious circle isn't it? It's not going to help the way you feel if you're constantly under-nourished (and I do believe that people who exist on takeaways and processed food are likely to be missing vital nutrients) so then you've got no energy and you can't be arsed and on it goes. If I don't eat fresh fruit or veg for a couple of days I can really feel it



It is a vicious circle and it's not the only one that those people are involved with. It seems as though some people feel that learning takes place outside of all the other influences on a person's life, that they must be lazy and stupid if they can't throw a few ingredients in a pan but it's actually a lot more complicated than that.


----------



## grubby local (Oct 2, 2008)

first - he wins hands down on getting a debate going.

second, i bought the sun which gave away his dvds and recipe cards and having seen the show i come to same conclusion - it aint gonna work for a simple reason - no-one scraping by will fork out for the necessary equipment/basic ingredients for the food he suggests. paremsan, balsamic, no chance. big frying pan, no chance. also, as others have mentioned, there are far easier options, just as good and healthy, which take a fraction of the time. I'd admire his efforts but he got those two things plain wrong.

third, as someone who has been away from england and english culture for a fair few years people are having a laugh when they say how little choice there is in supermarkets etc. You don't know you are born.

fourth, listening to radio phone-ins you would have thought that the credit crunch comes down to having to do without organic ketchup. i heard some idiot saying it was "now ok to do portfolio shopping" which the twat described as getting your basics from the supermarket and shopping around at markets etc for cheaper stuff. 

fifth, any recipe these days seems to have to contain one of the following ingredients as a basic: goats cheese, salmon, parmesan, pesto, etc etc. fcuk off.

and last, where did all this "posh fish and chips" and "posh eggs" etc that i see in boozers come from? fcuk off!

good for jamie, at least he's raised the debate. and good for seeing working class mums who are not just in some god-awful reality show.

in summary .... tv in general is shite, this isnt; people don't know how lucky they are to live in the uk; there is a total credibility gap between celebrity foody culture and the way most people can live.

/pennyworth
gx


----------



## grubby local (Oct 2, 2008)

*one solution:*

community allotment in working class housing estate. affordable food, mutual support, how to cook, no supermarkets. declaration of interest: mate of mine, proud to say.

http://www.seedybusiness.org/

http://www.itvlocal.com/meridian/news/?void=197913

http://www.seedybusiness.org/audio/world-service-interview.mp3


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

grubby local said:


> third, as someone who has been away from england and english culture for a fair few years people are having a laugh when they say how little choice there is in supermarkets etc. You don't know you are born.
> 
> gx



I agree in many respects, but in supermarkets its often a fairly fake choice. There are aisles and aisles of stuff, but much if it is anodyne and consistently dull. Baby and repackaged types of the same watery, taste-free veg, lots of homogenised shrinkwrapped pieces of vague meat stuff in familiar cuts, endless varieties of biscuits and ready meals. And products and seasonings anglicising 'foreign' foods so they all taste vaguely similar, trays of indistinct gloop with funny names. And the occasional 'exotic' foodstuff (Lychees, pakchoi etc) sold at eye wateringly expensive prices.

Go to somewhere like Modelo in Portugal and you'll be blown away. The fresh produce is of a different league, displayed simply and largely unadorned, the range of products smaller but somehow more varied. Even the odd little minimarket in rural Brazil has some unusual regional and seasonal goods in the main, with local shops and market taking up the slack.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> It's not going to be the same for everyone, but University widens your social circle and your experiences in general. The same's not true if you've spent your life in Rotherham and then become largely housebound with the kids.




Long rant... but please  the above is nonse... cooking has nothing to do with university, poverty, government, or any of those things.  it's about attitude, and it may help people understand why I react the way I do.


Learning to cook starts in the home.

My mum was teaching me how to make soups at the age of 3,  I was helping chop up and peel carrots potatoes etc at 3!  (she'd cut teh carrot so it was nearly cut fully,  and then give me a butter knife to cut through the last remaining bit).

I thinks its just how much you give a damn about your kids,  and how much effort you are willing to put in.   It is that simple.

Take this example.  

I spent most of my childhood summers in THE MOST deprived ex-industrail cities in Hungary.  I had loads of freinds who are still my friends,  who would just *gawp* at my mums Nissan Sunny when we drove for 24 hours acroos europe so i could see my Grandmother.  

They were the poorst people I have ever really known.  Much much poorer than any parents claiming "poverty" in the UK at the time - like alot of my school peers were.  

These kids literaly had nothing,  they would wear their shoes (plimsoles) until they had worn through a toes and still could not afford to replace them. Some kids didn't even have shoes!


Perhaps it's an eastern Eurpoean thing.. I dont know,  but certainly all my other Hungarian freinds that lived on the breadline in the most ex industrial hovel parts of Hungary know how to put together stews and soups, and know what different vegetables are. And know how to eat.

And geuss what,  all my firends there,  who are now in trades or on benefits there - but mainly in trades,  know exactly how to feed their babies on a tight budget.  

Not because the government intervened,  or cos they were given more money, or cos Jamie Oliver showed them how to make a few meatballs -  but because they and their perents and their granparent - actually gave a fuck about their kiddes - even though they couldn't afford TVs and new shoes, and fashionable clothes.  

And I was bought up exactly the same in the UK.  

My mum had no job,  my dad was just scraping the bills by in his garage, and I was running around in plimpsoles and clothes from the charity shop becasue my parents had NOTHING- and was right royally taken th piss out of by my peers. And yet people poorer then me had nintendos, nike airs the lot and I genuinely didn't understand why my parents wern't buying me all these things.  i thought they had it in for me!  And punishing me!  I honestly thought that.

I understand the difference now with hindsight.  My parents saw through materrial goods, and gold rings and playstations and TV adverts and sweets and crisps, and instead loved me enough to give a fuck about my education and health.  

So instead of buying me Nike Airs and siny new clothes - like the other kids that I so envied then,  they were buying me books,  and cooking for me, and teaching to me how to be a competant responsible adult.  Because the loved me and gave a fuck about my future.


I can see now that some parents,  although they protest at the thought,  Really do not give a fuck about thieir kids.  Otherwise they would pull thier fingers out....

like my parents and all those poverty stricken parents in Hungary did.

And do you know what -  and the kids having nothing,  I was the most happy child when in Hungary - quite the opposite to when in the UK- because everyone had so much more in possesions than me and made a booldy big point of it.







Varpalota/Hungary - Where everyone knows how to cook and where my fondest childhood memories come from.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2008)

It's a pity that your parents didn't manage to also teach you that not all people have been brought up in the same way, FLB. Some people's parents can't teach the kids to cook because they never learned how to themselves.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

Bully for you Fabric. And my gran used to make every bit of animal count. Snouts, trotters, face, even her famously popular black pudding. She could probably make a handbag out of goat skin and deadly arrow tips off chicken feet too.

Not everyone was so lucky though, or had parents who spent time teaching them anything. My family's efforts at stable home life weren't cloned elsewhere.


----------



## Zachor (Oct 2, 2008)

missfran said:


> I actually quite liked Jaimie's honesty - he admitted he couldn't understand their situation but didn't patronise them. It IS disgraceful that she'd never, ever cooked her children a meal. Cheesy chips and kebabs every night and doesn't even know how to turn the oven on. .



Appalling I've never been one for the state snatching peoples kids but if someone is too stupid to work out a) how to turn an oven on and b) refuses to make any effort to feed their children properly then they are probably not people who are safe to be left alone with a pet rock let alone a child. 



missfran said:


> That's nothing to do with being poor or working class.



Its got everything to do with being idle wasters though.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> hmm I think this idea middle class kids 'can' cook and working class ones 'can't' is a bit divisive. The idea we 'learned' to cook at university - I didn't! I've only started being a bit more adventurous now, and that is when I'm stuck home with the kids.
> 
> Lots of middle class people may not be able to cook - but living off M and S ready meals for one is seen as far more acceptable than living on Iceland bargains. Think this is the only real difference.



FWIW there's some truth to this. But I did go to a university prior to the ready meal revolution and with only a pissy little coop as a main store. Chicken tonight and variously flavoured kievs were the exciting student lazy food fads of the day.

I don't think class really affected it that notably - people were largely equally inept whatever the status of their upbringing.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

Zachor said:


> Appalling I've never been one for the state snatching peoples kids but if someone is too stupid to work out a) how to turn an oven on and b) refuses to make any effort to feed their children properly then they are probably not people who are safe to be left alone with a pet rock let alone a child.
> 
> 
> 
> Its got everything to do with being idle wasters though.




Lovely to see you back. I've got a terrific Norman Tebbit mask waiting for you.

Perhaps we could get some kind of compulsory sterilisation programme for school age teens in place, fertility being granted when the female chav has obtained a cooking competency certificate.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Just calling it as I see it.
> 
> 
> a cheap tin of tomatoes in sainsburys is 21p.
> ...


Really?
Where do you steal your "free" mince from then?


> you can get massive bags of pasta and rice in asda for really cheap.


And if you don't have a local Asda?


> Chicken livers and 99p for half a fucking kilo!


Yep, right, because preparing and cooking chicken livers is so simple for someone who doesn't know how to cook, isn't it?


> But instead... she chooses to spend £10 a night on dogmenat kebabs from lets face it... my money.  And expects sympahy.


No, that'd be mine and zenie's money.
*Your* money goes to that tramp who's pissing on your doorstep.


> She can fuck right off.
> 
> She can't say she doesn't have the time cos she doesn't work.  and the money excuse is just bullshit.
> 
> ...


Fuck you and your need to pretend you're somehow the victim in all this, you self-righteous douchebag.


----------



## Zachor (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Lovely to see you back. I've got a terrific Norman Tebbit mask waiting for you.



Oooh I've always wanted one of those 


tarannau said:


> Perhaps we could get some kind of compulsory sterilisation programme for school age teens in place, fertility being granted when the female chav has obtained a cooking competency certificate.



I wouldn't go that far.  Don't agree with compulsory sterilisation unless it is for a very good medical reason.  But people who refuse to look after their kids don't deserve to keep them.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

If it makes you feel bigger, many of the people on the programme felt hopeless and were devastated that they couldn't cook better food for their children. 

Did you watch any of the show, or is this reflex gobology?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2008)

Alex B said:


> Because cooking your own is vastly, absurdly cheaper than kebabs and other shit takeaway food.



I didn't see the programme, so I don't know what the local shopping dynamics were like, but were there shops with reasonably priced fresh food within walking distance of the people Mr. Oliver is assisting?
IT's just that one of the largest problems with this sort of issue is the existence of "food deserts", where access to decent shops means spending anything from half a day to a day's food budget just on getting to the shops and back.


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## grubby local (Oct 2, 2008)

exactly violent panda .... see previous post on last page re: community allotments. big problem.
gx


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

It was actually dealt with pretty well VP. One of the women, the most motivated and positive of the bunch imo, was in tears as she admitting going back to bad habits. It was clear that the cost and logistics of travelling to the 'proper' supermarket to buy ingredients was a disincentive - you can underplay it, but 2-way bus travel outside of London can be enough to buy fried chicken dinners for 2 or more.


----------



## Pie 1 (Oct 2, 2008)

grubby local said:


> third, as someone who has been away from england and english culture for a fair few years people are having a laugh when they say how little choice there is in supermarkets etc. You don't know you are born.



Absofuckinglutely 
I live in Switzerland and there are basically 2 [chains] to choose from & both are like a bad practical joke.

We're like kids in a candy store when back in the UK


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

To be fair, I often feel like that if I leave London for a little while


----------



## grubby local (Oct 2, 2008)

*check out the oliver forums ...*

http://www.jamieoliver.com/forum/viewforum.php?id=26

maybe some fresh faces will pop by here too if they can read through 17 pages ...
gx


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2008)

Bob Marleys Dad said:


> To everyone who is self-righteously saying that there is no excuse for not cooking, have a read of this post. Walk a mile in their shoes and then blether on with your judgemental nonsense.



Hear hear.


----------



## Pie 1 (Oct 2, 2008)

grubby local said:


> http://www.jamieoliver.com/forum/viewforum.php?id=26



Fuck me, that place is a gush fest innit!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2008)

Stoat Boy said:


> Mixed feelings on this.
> 
> On the one hand its just more 'white trash' TV which seems to be made solely for the pleasure/horror of the monied middle class who can wrinkle their noses in digust.
> 
> ...



I think that we fundamentally miss a point by not appreciating that it's only really been since WW2 and rationing that "the (wo)man in the street" has had much idea about "proper nutrition), and that rotten teeth etc were a norm before the NHS (as were soft teeth due to calcium deficiency).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2008)

grubby local said:


> exactly violent panda .... see previous post on last page re: community allotments. big problem.
> gx



Yep.
My parents have an allotment for growing their veggies (they live in a small east Anglian village where there's a single "general store" and a take-away), and grow fruit in their small back garden, and reckon they save (calculated at supermarket prices) between £10-£15 per week, more in the summer when the soft fruit is "in". They tend to grow varieties that keep well, and do the usual "trade with the neighbours" stuff with surplus produce, pretty much as their own parents did, and their grandparents before them.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> It was actually dealt with pretty well VP. One of the women, the most motivated and positive of the bunch imo, was in tears as she admitting going back to bad habits. It was clear that the cost and logistics of travelling to the 'proper' supermarket to buy ingredients was a disincentive - you can underplay it, but 2-way bus travel outside of London can be enough to buy fried chicken dinners for 2 or more.



Bob Holman (the sainted community worker at Easterhouse near Glasgow) made a big point out of this back in the 1980s, so much so that the local corporation laid on a subsidised bus service to take people "into town" to access the shops, but it still tends to be ignored as a factor, however hard academics and commentators push it (Lynsey Hanley and Joanna Blythman have both made a point of mentioning it in recent books, as does "The Food Programme" on R4).

We (the wife and I) are lucky-ish. I can't get out and about, but she can use her Oyster card to take advantage of cheaper travel, and go into Streatham, Brixton or (once every 4-6 weeks) Clapham Junction to shop. She knows where to go for what ingredients, and shops with the ruthlessness of the (as we are!) terminally-skint benefits claimant. Fortunately, neither of us smoke, and we don't drink much alcohol, so the money we save there offsets the fares enough that we can eat healthily (fresh fruit and veg, decent quality meat and fish).
Of course, my wife's onion allergy also means that take-aways are pointless unless I want her to get the king of all migraines, so that lets us off that hook!


----------



## Ms T (Oct 2, 2008)

mentalchik said:


> Well well done you then...........i came from a household where my mum home cooked (we very rarely had take aways etc) and i had absolutely no idea how to cook much of anything when i left home at 17. Was never interested in cooking.....still not really !



Me neither.  I was all at sea when I went to live in France at the age of 18.  I was living by myself with very little money and I ate a lot of baguettes and grated carrots and tomatoes.  Hardly healthy.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> If it makes you feel bigger, many of the people on the programme felt hopeless and were devastated that they couldn't cook better food for their children.
> 
> Did you watch any of the show, or is this reflex gobology?



No I watched the whole show.  And it mainly revoled around this one particular "mother".

And after the heart wrenching crying, and realisiation that she was shit - she just went back to the same old shite kebabs, and lo and behold, kame out with excuse on excuse.


It's one thing never being able to cook - I accept that.  And social dynamics work differnetly in this country - for whaever reasons - I accept that too.

But to be given the chance for free, by a professional chef,  and then making up rubbish exuses by claiming it isn't her fault (and fooling alot of gulliable people) - well that's just something else all togeher.

It smacks of lazyness.  Which is why I say fuck her.  People should just not waste time or money on these tools.


----------



## Zachor (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> It was actually dealt with pretty well VP. One of the women, the most motivated and positive of the bunch imo, was in tears as she admitting going back to bad habits. It was clear that the cost and logistics of travelling to the 'proper' supermarket to buy ingredients was a disincentive - you can underplay it, but 2-way bus travel outside of London can be enough to buy fried chicken dinners for 2 or more.



You have a good point there.  Fares can make 'real' food more expensive than crap takeaways in some circumstances.


----------



## Zachor (Oct 2, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> It smacks of lazyness.  Which is why I say fuck her.  People should just not waste time or money on these tools.



If people are so resistant to doing the right thing then she should have no rights to her children.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 2, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> No I watched the whole show.  And it mainly revoled around this one particular "mother".
> 
> And after the heart wrenching crying, and realisiation that she was shit - she just went back to the same old shite kebabs, and lo and behold, kame out with excuse on excuse.
> 
> ...



Were you watching the same episode????!!!


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

I think he was wearing his special Cunt-a-vision glasses. They may have distorted his view of the programme somewhat.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> I think he was wearing his special Cunt-a-vision glasses. They may have distorted his view of the programme somewhat.



Yeah fuck it. you're right


Despite all the help given to her she's perfectly right to giver her kids shite.  Every excuse she gave was proper legit, and she's just a poor salt of the earth trying to stand up to the partonising Mr.Oliver.


how stupid that I didn't see this all before.

She should be able to eat all the kabas and chips she and her kid can eat.  And no one should critisise her.  Cos she's poor.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 2, 2008)

FLB.. how long have you been with your City/Trader boyfriend?? 

Just curious like...


----------



## Ms T (Oct 2, 2008)

What's depressing is how little things have changed.

(From The Guardian)

When George Orwell wrote The Road to Wigan Pier in the middle of the 1930s depression, he set out to record the lives of the English working class in the industrial north. He was appalled by the quality of their diets. "A man dies and is buried and all his actions forgotten but the food he has eaten lives after him in the sound or rotten bones of his children." Orwell wrote down detailed accounts of how unemployed working-class people on welfare spent their money. He doubted it was even theoretically possible to live on their allowance. "The basis of their diet is white bread and margarine, corned beef, sugared tea and potatoes. Would it not be better if they spent more money of wholesome things like oranges and wholemeal bread?" Yes it would he answered, but "no ordinary human being is ever going to do such a thing. The ordinary human being would sooner starve than live on brown bread and raw carrots ... A millionaire may enjoy breakfasting off orange juice and Ryvita, an unemployed man doesn't ... When you are underfed, harassed, bored and miserable, you don't want to eat dull, wholesome food. You want something a little bit tasty. Let's have three pennorth of chips! Put the kettle on and we'll all have a nice cup of tea!"


----------



## Santino (Oct 2, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> No I watched the whole show.  And it mainly revoled around this one particular "mother".


I'm fairly sure she was actually a mother. Why the scare quotes?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

Good quote Ms T.

Next week on FabricLive's Reactionary-O-Thon: "Beggars - why don't they  spend my fucking 20p towards the deposit on a nice flat instead of special brew'


----------



## ringo (Oct 2, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> But to be given the chance for free, by a professional chef,  and then making up rubbish exuses by claiming it isn't her fault (and fooling alot of gulliable people) - well that's just something else all togeher.
> 
> It smacks of lazyness.  Which is why I say fuck her.  People should just not waste time or money on these tools.



Twat.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 2, 2008)

Zachor said:


> If people are so resistant to doing the right thing then she should have no rights to her children.



fucks sake we take peoples kids away because they're not michelin chefs. At least the people on that programme came forward and admitted they needed help in the kitchen department.


----------



## Zachor (Oct 2, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> fucks sake we take peoples kids away because they're not michelin chefs. At least the people on that programme came forward and admitted they needed help in the kitchen department.



If people are progressing and making the effort to improve their children's diets fair enough that should be encouraged and applauded but those who abuse their children through diet or other lack of care do not deserve the care of something as precious as a child.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 2, 2008)

Zachor said:


> If people are progressing and making the effort to improve their children's diets fair enough that should be encouraged and applauded but those who abuse their children through diet or other lack of care do not deserve the care of something as precious as a child.



I don't want to live in a place where people are judged as parents on their cooking skills.


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 2, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I don't want to live in a place where people are judged as parents on their cooking skills.



You know, I reckon that if you were to take a wide sweep of parenting skills you'd probably find a correlation between bad or careless parenting and shite food in the family - and I'd say this applies across the social spectrum as well.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 2, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I don't want to live in a place where people are judged as parents on their cooking skills.



I don't want to live in a place where parents can't feed there kids properly


----------



## STFC (Oct 2, 2008)

Kanda said:


> I don't want to live in a place where parents can't feed there kids properly



I wouldn't recommend moving to Rotherham then.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

Zachor said:


> If people are progressing and making the effort to improve their children's diets fair enough that should be encouraged and applauded but those who abuse their children through diet or other lack of care do not deserve the care of something as precious as a child.



Did you see the programme then Zachor?

Did you think that these people were 'making the effort' or were they 'too stupid to own a pet rock' as you said earlier?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> You know, I reckon that if you were to take a wide sweep of parenting skills you'd probably find a correlation between bad or careless parenting and shite food in the family - and I'd say this applies across the social spectrum as well.



i don't know. I've had shite food amongst nice families, from the chicken nugget stereotype options through to worthy vegan grimness. I guess it's effort that's often more indicative than culinary skill.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

Kanda said:


> FLB.. how long have you been with your City/Trader boyfriend??
> 
> Just curious like...



What you mean the one that was bought up by a single mother from Poland?  

none of your buisness.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

Fucks sake, can you get any more desperate. Single mother... and Polish.... have another 5 bonus smug points.

You had a single mother who cared and equipped you well for practical life. Be proud of her. Shame she didn't work on your empathy and social skills.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> You know, I reckon that if you were to take a wide sweep of parenting skills you'd probably find a correlation between bad or careless parenting and shite food in the family - and I'd say this applies across the social spectrum as well.



Quite.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Fucks sake, can you get any more desperate. Single mother... and Polish.... have another 5 bonus smug points.
> 
> You had a single mother who cared and equipped you well for practical life. Be proud of her. Shame she didn't work on your empathy and social skills.



She wasn't single.  My dad is still around thankfully.

and I' not looking for smug points.  I don't know what my trader (which he isnt)  boyfreind has to do with this thread but I'm guessing that it's got nothing to do with food r Jamie Oliver, and infact one of those Urban specialof trying to oust someone as an undesirablerich person... which we arn't.



Should we not critisise crap mothers and just let them get on with it then?  serious question.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 2, 2008)

Should we judge the quality of someone's parenting skills just by their ability to cook? Is this the nineteen fifties?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

Yes, what we should do to people who acknowledge being crap, on live telly in front of millions, is to shout 'fuck you' and demonise them as unfit parents. That'll help.

There can't possibly be a reason why folks don't share the same cooking skills and appreciation of fresh food as you, can there? Nor any reason why it seems so difficult and unrewarding to teach yourself basic principles amongst ridicule and disbelief.

You're a real fucking help with your condescending sneering, make no mistake.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 2, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> What you mean the one that was bought up by a single mother from Poland?
> 
> none of your buisness.



Just your swing to the right over the time you've been posting 

Not trying to say you're rich at all, fuck, I work for a hedge fund but some of your views startle me.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Running a pub may not make you priveleged - I ran plenty and I'm a scrubber, but owning a pub like that is a different, potentially far more profitable matter.





kyser_soze said:


> You know, I reckon that if you were to take a wide sweep of parenting skills you'd probably find a correlation between bad or careless parenting and shite food in the family - and I'd say this applies across the social spectrum as well.



Some correlation, perhaps, but not much. Certainly not enough to say the kids are better off away from their families, friends and homes, in amongst strangers, with an uncertain future.


----------



## Zachor (Oct 2, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Should we judge the quality of someone's parenting skills just by their ability to cook? Is this the nineteen fifties?



No we should judge peoples parenting skill partially in their attitude to what their children eat AMONGST OTHER THINGS.


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 2, 2008)

Zachor said:


> No we should judge peoples parenting skill partially in their attitude to what their children eat AMONGST OTHER THINGS.



Social services do take diet into consideration but to remove a child on the basis of diet would be unheard of in my experience.

How do people on low income afford Jamies diet regime?

How do parents working 24/7 to pay bills in crap jobs to keep a family in a house and food afford that miserable fat tongued bastards middle class lifestyle choices?

The problems with the compnays that make shit food not poor/overworked people who are forced to buy it.


----------



## ringo (Oct 2, 2008)

Social services only remove children if they are perceived to be in danger. Can't imagine diet has ever been used in this sense. Shit argument.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 2, 2008)

Herbert Read said:


> Social services do take diet into consideration but to remove a child on the basis of diet would be unheard of in my experience.



Yes. Zachor, you didn't say 'among other factors' at first. You said, quite clearly, that people who can't cook shouldn't be allowed to be around their kids. 



> How do people on low income afford Jamies diet regime?
> 
> How do parents working 24/7 to pay bills in crap jobs to keep a family in a house and food afford that miserable fat tongued bastards middle class lifestyle choices?
> 
> The problems with the compnays that make shit food not poor/overworked people who are forced to buy it.



It most certainly is possible to feed your family well if you're on a low income and have little time. I do it. But then, I know how to cook good meals with cheap ingredients, how to use quality ingredients sparingly (apart from the balsamic vinegar, nothing on that list of ingredients for meatballs was expensive - the parmesan's not essential), how to make sure I cook enough that I can freeze portions and reheat so that I only actually have to cook from a fresh a couple of times a week, etc. etc. Plus I've invested in decent equipment, and a freezer. The decent equipment is mostly from pound shops, and the freezer was a gift from someone who was upgrading - Freecycle offers the same opportunity. 

It's definitely possible to do it with a little education, which is what this 'Ministry of Food' thing's about, isn't it? 

I was reading about it in the mirror today - the centre is still open, still offering courses to all sorts of local people, and I bet they give advice on things like how to cook on a budget. It's not just the TV show. 

BTW, Ms T, that quote is absolutely perfect.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 2, 2008)

Lidl sells cheap balsamic vinegar and parmesan these days.  I don't think it's that outrageous that Jamie includes them in his recipes.  Both of them together cost less than a packet of fags.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Just your swing to the right over the time you've been posting
> 
> Not trying to say you're rich at all, fuck, I work for a hedge fund but some of your views startle me.



Not really,  I'm pretty left to be honest on almost everything tbh.  It's jsut this one issue that I don't believe the left are right on.

Issue being that,  give someone a chance,  give somone help, give somoene money,  help people - good!  This is really needed.  no one deserves to be walked over. I mean fuck -everyone gets in trouble.

But to fuck up given ample opportunity is more than a coincidence. And it really fucks me off that some people no matter how many opportunites given to them just won't take it.  and it's not about money.  Fuck the money,  but for thir kids?

Seriously,  fuck em.  They are a waste of time and effort where the resources could go to more needy, and willing to help themselves when help is given...


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 2, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Not really,  I'm pretty left to be honest on almost everything tbh.  It's jsut this one issue that I don't believe the left are right on.



They're wrong on one of the central tenets of left-wing ideology? Who the fuck are you? Tony Blair?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Issue being that,  give someone a chance,  give somone help, give somoene money,  help people - good!  This is really needed.  no one deserves to be walked over. I mean fuck -everyone gets in trouble.
> ...
> Seriously,  fuck em.  They are a waste of time and effort where the resources could go to more needy, and willing to help themselves when help is given...



And you're judging these people based on one tv show, where events and footage are never manipulated for effect? You're a generous soul for sure.

Fuck you and your Jeremy Kyle style moralising.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> They're wrong on one of the central tenets of left-wing ideology? Who the fuck are you? Tony Blair?



WTF?

I thought that the central tennet of left wing ideology was wealth distribution from the very rich to the very poor??

I dind't realise it was based around willingness to learn!

All I'm agruing for is this mum to pull her finger out now that she's been shown how to cook a decent meal and just do it.


Perhaps she will next episode


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 2, 2008)

Well having a certain amount of sympathy for the underpriviledged and an appreciation of the cultural and socioeconomic circumstances that leads to their situation is surely a tenet of socialism? Something you seem to lack entirely.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> Well having a certain amount of sympathy for the underpriviledged and an appreciation of the cultural and socioeconomic circumstances that leads to their situation is surely a tenet of socialism? Something you seem to lack entirely.




yeah,  and if you see my provious posts,  that's fine.  i understand that.  some people never learned to cook - cool no problem.

But somone has gone to her house and shown her how to do it.  That she doens't now carry this on for the sake of her children.  I dont understand.  A bit of effort from the other side is also necessary sometimes.  you can give someone al the sympathy and support they need.  Sad fact is that if they don't want to change,  they wont.  And some people do change... and... well others don't.. .and dont want to.

No point in wastng effort on someone who doens't want to change is there?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

Where do you get this idea she didn't want to change?


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 2, 2008)

You've said all this before.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Where do you get this idea she didn't want to change?



I'd have said that taking cookery lessons was a pretty good sign that she does want to change, personally.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Where do you get this idea she didn't want to change?



The fact that she was still ordering £70 per week worth of kebabs every night for dinner 2 weeks later???


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 2, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> The fact that she was still ordering £70 per week worth of kebabs every night for dinner 2 weeks later???



Long-forged habits are hard to change


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> You've said all this before.



Aye, the world is built on cycles!


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

When did she say that then? I saw her in tears confessing that she hadn't been as good as she would have liked, but you seem to have imagined the detail.

Strangely enough I believe it takes more than a visit from a mockney celebrity chef and a couple of recipes to change the habits of a lifetime.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

Left Turn Clyde said:


> Long-forged habits are hard to change



Yes they are,  but the effort has to come from her.

.....anyway - perhaps next week she will be really good.  Then I can hang my head and skulk off in shame.



........ or I'll be all smug - cos she never changed at all........



Next week,  on the Jamie Oliver thread.   Does FLB get her cummuppance?  Wait and see


----------



## mentalchik (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Strangely enough I believe it takes more than a visit from a mockney celebrity chef and a couple of recipes to change the habits of a lifetime.




Also for some people this isn't just habits of  their lifetime it's the habits of their parents lifetimes too......and all the people around them.....iykwim !


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

She made the effort though. She hosted a successful cooking class for her friends, was seen happily flipping pancakes after fatlip left. She was beating herself up for not doing as well as she liked, not confessing the chain-shovelling kebabs down her family's neck

How much do you expect her to achieve with a couple of recipes, no money and kids to look after all day? This was someone who didn't know anything about cooking, shopping or family eating just a week or two before.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

mentalchik said:


> Also for some people this isn't just habits of  their lifetime it's the habits of their parents lifetimes too......and all the people around them.....iykwim !



Exactly. I know otherwise good parents who believe that childrens food equals something plus chips and beans. That's what they've been raised and fed on, what their children eat at school, what's on offer from their local store and what's provided as the kids options in restaurants.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> She made the effort though. She hosted a successful cooking class for her friends, was seen happily flipping pancakes after fatlip left. She was beating herself up for not doing as well as she liked, not confessing the chain-shovelling kebabs down her family's neck
> 
> How much do you expect her to achieve with a couple of recipes, no money and kids to look after all day? This was someone who didn't know anything about cooking, shopping or family eating just a week or two before.



mmmm,   fair point.

I have a feeling I might look like a bigger twat by the end of all this.  I mean it's partly my fault for getting fucking angry at the sight of a small child guzzling down kebabbies - that shit realy annoys me know matter what fucking class background someone comes from.

t's one of the things that REALLY annoys me (you guys may have guessed).


----------



## scifisam (Oct 2, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> mmmm,   fair point.
> 
> I have a feeling I might look like a bigger twat by the end of all this.  I mean it's partly my fault for getting fucking angry at the sight of a small child guzzling down kebabbies - that shit realy annoys me know matter what fucking class background someone comes from.
> 
> t's one of the things that REALLY annoys me (you guys may have guessed).



I actually like how honest you're being about all this.  It's almost like you're actually taking other people's comments on board!


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

... anyway I'm not going to pretend to understand cos I dont'....... but I do care


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

You're getting a bit outraged well after the event then. Think of the shit that most of us were given at school.

A kebab isn't inherently an act of abuse against a child. No more than shovelling a child's lunchbox with prepared high-fat and high sugar ready prepared items from Sainsburys Local instead of Iceland makes you a better mother. It's a perception based on reactionary snobbery in the main.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

scifisam said:


> I actually like how honest you're being about all this.  It's almost like you're actually taking other people's comments on board!




Well I do.  What I don't respond well to is things like "you are a Hitler nazi cunt".


I'm always willing to listen to a good logical argument if somone has one.


But alot the times what I find is that "she's poor - therfore you should allow her you right wing rich scum.." or something similar as if poverty avlieviates all kinds of responsibility, and as if somehow holding the poor accountable makes you a right wing scumbag - Not a good argument.

There's alot of class tensions on these boards - which I really don't understand cos I didn't grow up in a class.  i grew up as  a 2nd gen hungarian in da UK


"It's a habbit of a lifetime" - Good argument.


And also,  I will admit when I'm wrong on something.  Cos it's the only way for a person to grow.   Y'get me.


----------



## cesare (Oct 2, 2008)

I was thinking about this earlier (as you do) and imagining what it would have been like if my dad had mainly been the parent bringing me up in terms of cooking and other household jobs. Very different I imagine as his own upbringing was by a single father plus boarding school, I don't think I've ever seen him cook anything although he does lend a hand very occasionally. 

So I count my blessings really because I was lucky having my mum and gran showing and expecting me to cook, plus the brownies/guides that I mentioned earlier, plus 3 years of HE at school because it was on the curriculum then. A lucky combination of circumstances, although it could have been very different and certainly was for loads of kids that I grew up with. 

It's something that I'm sometimes guilty of taking for granted and it's not until you get pulled up short in your personal assumptions that you realise that it isn't that easy for people. Examples of this include my SiL asking me to show her how to make a fruit cake and my b/f just looking at me in a stunned-only-just-stopped-being-a-vegan fashion when I asked him to prepare a couple of trout 

It's all very well for people to criticise the woman in this programme, but all this stuff takes practice. It's like being taught to ride a bike with stabilisers, and taking the first couple of circles with the stabilisers off and not having the confidence/conditions to keep on practicing under supervision until you truly feel that you can cycle. Or passing your driving test and then not driving afterwards.

And, I still go round the corner shop and buy a cheese and onion pasty, oven chips and baked beans because sometimes I'm tired/demotivated/need something quick and filling. And that's without kids to worry about. So I really can't muster up the outrage to get overly critical about people that feel like this all the time and can't escape from that vicious circle without help.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> But alot the times what I find is that "she's poor - therfore you should allow her" you right wing rich scum.. or something similar - Not a good argument.



Who said anything approaching that though? You were bandying about the 'fuck them' and 'lazy' slurs and stereotypes long before anyone bit back.

I appreciate the loud beeping backtrack now, but let's not reinvent the thread eh.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Who said anything approaching that though? You were bandying about the 'fuck them' and 'lazy' slurs and stereotypes long before anyone bit back.
> 
> I appreciate the loud beeping backtrack now, but let's not reinvent the thread eh.



Yeah I know.   It aint relevant to the thread.... but there is an understram of that round here.  Like bringing up the fact that my boyfreind works for a trading company.  That was lazy streotyping too......


I found that a bit distateful and abit unecessary. 


...but anyway... beep beep beep.  n all that.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 2, 2008)

Fairplay on your honesty. I think that comment was more borne of frustration and amazement at your persistently stated views than malice though.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Oct 2, 2008)

scifisam said:


> It most certainly is possible to feed your family well if you're on a low income and have little time. I do it. But then, I know how to cook good meals with cheap ingredients, how to use quality ingredients sparingly (apart from the balsamic vinegar, nothing on that list of ingredients for meatballs was expensive - the parmesan's not essential), how to make sure I cook enough that I can freeze portions and reheat so that I only actually have to cook from a fresh a couple of times a week, etc. etc. Plus I've invested in decent equipment, and a freezer. The decent equipment is mostly from pound shops, and the freezer was a gift from someone who was upgrading - Freecycle offers the same opportunity.



Definately agree with this I've fed myself and 2 kids well (although maybe not luxuriously) on below minimum wage, its more a matter of education, but as in all things if someone isn't willing to be taught what do you do then?


----------



## Fuchs66 (Oct 2, 2008)

tarannau said:


> And you're judging these people based on one tv show, where events and footage are never manipulated for effect? You're a generous soul for sure.
> 
> Fuck you and your Jeremy Kyle style moralising.



As I said before you have to see this in context, its a TV show and it is first and foremost entertainment, simple as. Although I must admit I think if it contributes to education in general and leads at least some people to rethink their eating habits then maybe it aint a bad thing.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 2, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yep.
> My parents have an allotment for growing their veggies (they live in a small east Anglian village where there's a single "general store" and a take-away), and grow fruit in their small back garden, and reckon they save (calculated at supermarket prices) between £10-£15 per week, more in the summer when the soft fruit is "in". They tend to grow varieties that keep well, and do the usual "trade with the neighbours" stuff with surplus produce, pretty much as their own parents did, and their grandparents before them.



my dad and step mum do this now they have a garden to do it in.
it's amazing the stuff they've got coming out of there garden all year round.

really good quality and for a bit of elbow grease, trial and error and some seeds.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 2, 2008)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Seriously,  fuck em.  They are a waste of time and effort where the resources could go to more needy, and willing to help themselves when help is given...




Listen to yourself man. Deserving and undeserving poor?


----------



## PandaCola (Oct 2, 2008)

If you think this weeks show was bad- wait till next week. Jamie really ups the stakes in terms of Northern stereotypes when he unveils Mick the Miner. 

Find out about him and other aspects of the "reality" show at:

www.jamiegohome.com

Some people Rotherham are less than happy with the way their town is being portrayed.


----------



## Cid (Oct 2, 2008)

Could it be possible that PandaCola has a quite specific agenda here...


----------



## scifisam (Oct 3, 2008)

FWIW, in the Mirror today I found out why Rotherham was chosen - because that's the hometown of those women who 'rebelled' against healthy school dinners, as espoused by Jamie Oliver, by feeding their kids chips through the school railings.


----------



## Griff (Oct 3, 2008)

Cid said:


> Could it be possible that PandaCola has a quite specific agenda here...






I have no idea what you mean by that.


----------



## Part 2 (Oct 3, 2008)

scifisam said:


> FWIW, in the Mirror today I found out why Rotherham was chosen - because that's the hometown of those women who 'rebelled' against healthy school dinners, as espoused by Jamie Oliver, by feeding their kids chips through the school railings.



You could've found that out by watching the programme

Also chosen because it's the place with fastest growing obesity problem IIRC


----------



## Santino (Oct 3, 2008)

scifisam said:


> FWIW, in the Mirror today I found out why Rotherham was chosen - because that's the hometown of those women who 'rebelled' against healthy school dinners, as espoused by Jamie Oliver, by feeding their kids chips through the school railings.





Part2 said:


> You could've found that out by watching the programme
> 
> Also chosen because it's the place with fastest growing obesity problem IIRC


It's also the 'most average' town in Britain, i.e. the most statistically representative of the rest of the country.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Oct 3, 2008)

I only watched this on Sky+ last night and I found it heartbreaking to be honest. I felt really sorry for that young woman with the chips & cheese and kebabs kids. I think she really wanted to do better by them and was really getting a kick out of cooking for them and feeding them good foor but money worries and day to day drudgery just seemed overwhelmed her and I imagine it's really hard to think about what you _should _be doing when you don't know where the next penny is coming from. 

All this has been said already I know but I was surprised at how upset I felt for her.


Anyway - never forget that this is a telly programme first and foremost and I bet it all comes good in the end. This is the opening "oh no! whatever will Jamie do?!?!?!" episode.


----------



## PandaCola (Oct 3, 2008)

Cid said:


> Could it be possible that PandaCola has a quite specific agenda here...



I don't know what you mean. 

I live in Rotherham and I am concerned about the way my home town is being unfairly protrayed.

This is the most unreal piece of reality TV- yet many people accept it at face value and then construct arguments based on a totally ficticious premise. 

Visit the aforementioned blog for more details.

My agenda is- the people in the show were carefully cast to adhere to the worst Northern stereotypes (like I said- wait till next week). The show is having a terrible effect on the image and morale of the town and the serious debate around health and food is being skewed by a celebrity with his own agenda- selling books, running a paralle ad campaign with Sainsburys and setting up a social networking site for foodies dressed up as a healthy eating campaign.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Oct 3, 2008)

PandaCola said:


> This is the most unreal piece of reality TV- yet many people accept it at face value and then construct arguments based on a totally ficticious premise.



To be fair, anyone who make a judgement about Rotherhan based solely on what they see on a reality TV programme is a bit of an idiot....


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 4, 2008)

takeaway or a bag of pasta and some tomatoes and some chicken bits (buy these instead of getting moaned at for eating takeout and then get moaned at for supporting unethical farm practises)

Living the dream!


----------



## sheothebudworths (Oct 4, 2008)

grubby local said:


> community allotment in working class housing estate. affordable food, mutual support, how to cook, no supermarkets. declaration of interest: mate of mine, proud to say.
> 
> http://www.seedybusiness.org/
> 
> ...




That's just down the end of my road! 

Great idea - they have seed exchange days too (we have an allotment a little further down the train tracks from the same station).

Other than that though, I've never actually seen anyone working on it (although it's clearly tended to frequently and very well)....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 4, 2008)

Mrs Miggins said:


> To be fair, anyone who make a judgement about Rotherhan based solely on what they see on a reality TV programme is a bit of an idiot....



I base my opinion of Rotherham on the assessment my uncle (from Doncaster) gave me of it:

"Blooody shit'ole".


----------



## catinthehat (Oct 4, 2008)

The flaw in this is that rather than addressing what is a big social problem around not just cooking food but 101 other related social aspects (how and when you eat, consumption/production of food, marketing of food, time, care deficits et al) in a thorough well thought out set of social policies the governement go at it bit by bit, little quick fixes here and there including attempts to get the media to employ their "education" arm.   This is less about individuals who appear to lack the ability or motivation to pop in a casserole and more about social spaces, social cohesion, media saturation, alienation bla bla bla.  This is a public issue which is being distorted into a private trouble.  Individualise social pathology and no one is to blame but the individual.  Who is most of the annoyance directed toward ?  Jamie Oliver - mere pawn, well rewarded but still a pawn and the participants.

Its fine to refer back to Grandparents who grew vegtables and prepared everything from scratch - but that was before business found ways of "adding value" to food, supermarket cartels, tower blocks with no gardens, families that had conversations, dual earners and take aways on every corner.  This is not a "good old days" position - there have been social changes and unintended consequences.  Poor diet is an unintended consequence and it will take more than Jamie Oliver to fix it because its not about recipes or cooking - its much deeper and harder to fix.


----------



## susie12 (Oct 4, 2008)

catinthehat, I totally agree and that was the point I was originally trying to make.  The negative stereotypes and unthinking assumptions which this programme is enforcing will do more harm than good.  I've just listened to Womans Hour where Jamie is seen as a saint and one woman actually said how marvellous it was that he is not patronising - must have seen a different programme from the one I watched.  It's several years since I was involved in welfare work but things have not changed even one tiny bit, it is so sad.


----------



## likesfish (Oct 4, 2008)

Poor can cook even tried tofu once never again:'( 
But its hard to start if u aint been shown
 And u will relapse


----------



## davesgcr (Oct 5, 2008)

I am glad someone put that Orwell quote up ! 

I recall the less "fortunate" kids in school coming home to bread and butter with sugar sprinkled on for tea. They lived basically Mon - Friday on school dinners and foraged the rest of the time. Nothing new - this was the late 1960's in a not terribly badly off bit of South West Wales.

Otherwise - as far as I recall - the cooking culture of home baking and wholesome meals was very established. My own cookery lessons from my parents started at the age of 8!. "Convenience" foods like Vesta curries and instant mash only came into normal use in this era - excluding things like tinned pies etc.I struggle to think of anything "take away" other than (coal fired) fish and chip shops.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 7, 2008)

That miner's lovely! I didn't know there were any mines left, though.

I like the way the 'teachers' are quite happy to tell Jamie what to do, politely.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2008)

After seeing last night's show, shame on anyone that condemned Natasha first time round.  She's so dedicated to learning about food, she even started a vegetable garden completely off her own back.  Her determination to turn things around for herself and her child is inspiring.


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 8, 2008)

I do not get why he's still got the Critchlow woman involved, she's done nothing but be negative and down on the whole thing. I think he's trying to turn her into this series' Norah, but it doesn't appear to be happening.

Natasha's great though, I agree.


----------



## Santino (Oct 8, 2008)

kabbes said:


> After seeing last night's show, shame on anyone that condemned Natasha first time round.  She's so dedicated to learning about food, she even started a vegetable garden completely off her own back.  Her determination to turn things around for herself and her child is inspiring.


You're right, I might stop writing those letters to her now.


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 8, 2008)

I've just realised who Natasha reminds me of - Becky off Corrie.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 8, 2008)

Missed this last night, as the quick pint turned into a multiple session of liver damaging proportions. Caught the last few mins on C4+1 whilst cooking furiously, trying to use up food and stave on a hangover.

Glad that Natasha seems to be confounding the lazy stereotypes of Fabric and co on this thread. Anyone know when the repeat's on?


----------



## beeboo (Oct 8, 2008)

Natasha - bless her - just doesn't seem to have the confidence in her own abilities.  She was terrified about leading the class ("I can't speak in front of a group") and then showed great presence and leadership.  It just seems to be symptomatic of her life, that she's actually amazingly capable but no-one has ever given her the confidence to believe it.


----------



## Part 2 (Oct 8, 2008)

beeboo said:


> Natasha - bless her - just doesn't seem to have the confidence in her own abilities.  She was terrified about leading the class ("I can't speak in front of a group") and then showed great presence and leadership.  It just seems to be symptomatic of her life, that she's actually amazingly capable but no-one has ever given her the confidence to believe it.



Wouldn't that be the same of most people being asked to do something for the first time having never done it in their life though?


----------



## Azrael (Oct 22, 2008)

Part2 said:


> Wouldn't that be the same of most people being asked to do something for the first time having never done it in their life though?


Right enough, but Natasha's nerves would be exacerbated by borderline-illiteracy. Poor woman. 

Decent programme. Was very impressed with Natasha (who clearly needed remedial lessons in reading and writing, which it seems she'll now get) and less impressed with Ms Critchlow's negativity. (Add usual disclaimer that you can misrepresent anyone with an edit suite, so I'm not passing judgment on the people, just the show.)

Wonder what Mr Oliver's going to tackle next?


----------



## Part 2 (Oct 22, 2008)

I turned it off last night after watching the rest of the series. 

I'd just heard him say 'pass it on' enough times.

I do find it interesting what people are prepared to do for celebrities though. Almost bizarre really that someone could be inspired in that way by someone they don't really know.


----------



## N_igma (Oct 23, 2008)

Fair play to Jamie that's all I say, he really does care about it that much. He might be a bit naive but at least he's trying.


----------



## Azrael (Oct 23, 2008)

True, and major respect to him for it, but idealism is inherently dangerous. Mr Oliver's school dinners campaign led on occasion to overworked, unpaid dinnerladies and carbo-loaded kids. We all know which road good intentions can tarmac. 

Although this campaign has less opportunity to cause problems, I really, really hope Mr Oliver was joking when he said he'd never read a book in his life (  ), 'cause "unintended consequences" is a phrase he needs to keep in mind.


----------



## Orangesanlemons (Oct 23, 2008)

1) Is the money from Mr. Oliver's book of the series going anywhere other than his own pocket?

2) Were any of the "characters" (say, the miner chap) that provide content for said book actually paid anything for their troubles? Was it anything approaching the fees paid for those actors playing Oliver's Sainsbury "family"?

3) Who is paying the 100k for Oliver's Rotherham "Ministry Of Food" to stay open for the year? Oliver? Or the hard-up local council?

Hey, but at least he cares, right? Seriously, haven't we had enough of this patronising, money-grabbing little weasel yet?

And no, I'm not a huge fan...


----------



## Azrael (Oct 23, 2008)

Orangesanlemons said:


> And no, I'm not a huge fan...


Crikey, and I thought _I_ was cynical.  

(Which isn't to say that you're not 100 per cent right, though. Hopefully not, as Mr Oliver and his campaigns aren't going anywhere.)


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

someone in rotherham is pissed off...




> Jamie Go Home was inspired by the decision to film the television programme ‘Jamie’s Ministry of Food’ in my home town of Rotherham.
> 
> I believe that this show and the twisted logic behind it are an example of everything that is wrong with Britain in 2008.
> 
> ...


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

Although to be fair, someone in Rotherham is trying very hard to be a plum too:



> The media hate fest was inspired by Jamie’s School Dinners. In the TV show, Jamie Oliver had a half arsed idea to give kids crap food that they wouldn’t eat at school. As he was a celebrity- it was compulsory for everyone to get behind this or you were officially a child abuser of Austrian proportions. ....
> The Jamie brand had further success by telling poor people that they shouldn’t eat the protein rich and good for you supermarket chicken. For reasons I can’t get my head round- we were told it is better to kill a creature that is having a great life than one that is miserable.



Oliver's an objectionable twunt at times for sure, but this writer's a tryhard twunt and a half too.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

That's just sad.  Watching the show, it is clear that he has made a real and positive impact on peoples' lives.  It is also clear that he has worked incredibly hard, overcome serious obstacles and put his own money into making something work that he really believe in.

Some people really would rather just sit back and let everything turn to crap and instead spend their time berating those who try to do something about it.  Sad, sad, sad.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> That's just sad.  Watching the show, it is clear that he has made a real and positive impact on peoples' lives.  It is also clear that he has worked incredibly hard, overcome serious obstacles and put his own money into making something work that he really believe in.
> 
> Some people really would rather just sit back and let everything turn to crap and instead spend their time berating those who try to do something about it.  Sad, sad, sad.



I agree. I thought that the positive impact he had on Natasha and Claire especially was pretty wonderful.  He may be an idealist, but there are precious few of those left in the world.  And there's a lot to be said for philanthropy too - in a way that's what Oliver is, an old-fashioned philanthropist.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

I'd be pissed off if that was how my town was being portrayed..


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

Really? I didn't take it as particularly Rotherham specific. You could have easily uncovered similar groups of folks in London.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

Ms T said:


> I agree. I thought that the positive impact he had on Natasha and Claire especially was pretty wonderful.  He may be an idealist, but there are precious few of those left in the world.  And there's a lot to be said for philanthropy too - in a way that's what Oliver is, an old-fashioned philanthropist.



To be fair, he does benefit benefit off the books and profile of the series. I actually think his heart's in the right place, even if I think he's an annoying mockney twat in the main. 

However, he's not that philanthropic in the old fashioned sense. He's donating his time, not any of the money derived from selling the book of the series, or any of C4's whopping golden handshake deal he got on the back of media savvy campaigns like this.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Really? I didn't take it as particularly Rotherham specific. You could have easily uncovered similar groups of folks in London.



Aye but he didn't

http://jamiegohome.com/page/3/





> Let’s give the producers the benefit of the doubt. Let’s pretend that they really did want to see how the Pass it On campaign went down in Everytown UK before they rolled it out. A key feature will be the lessons Jamie gave to a select group of non – cookers. From the pre publicity- we know that these people were selected after being interviewed by researchers from the show. So- if they were serious about the claim- they would be looking to put together a group representative of the town (and therefore the nation) at large. If they were looking for a bunch of two dimensional Northern stereotypes fit to be sneered and guffawed at by Jamie’s core middle class audience- that would be reprehensible. It would also reinforce the negative image of the town. An image that drops a notch each time the Oliver fuelled media circus is mentioned.
> 
> The people who they selected include- 51 year old miner (from the other side of Donny) who has never made his own dinner and says cooking is for “poofs” and young single mum who lives exclusively on takeaways (from a part of the Dearne Valley that is Rotherham in postcode but Barnsley to most people).
> 
> ...







> The Channel 4 sales website exists to attract sponsors and adverts to upcoming projects. For months, Jamie’s Ministry of Food was pitched thus:
> 
> “ABC1 Women
> In the First World War (sic) Britain’s nutrition was in crisis. The government responded by creating a new Ministry of Food.
> ...



yeah he        goes on a bit (does he hate Oliver or what) but it's no surprise this is a north v south thing.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

The problem is that the publicity for the show was highly unrepresentative of the show itself, in my opinion.  For publicity purposes, they will always hook onto whatever they perceive will grab the most attention.  Judging the whole campaign off the back of that publicity is just dumb.


----------



## gracious (Oct 23, 2008)

i really wanted to be behind jamie on this one, but when i watched it was all close ups of him angsting about whether it would work and saying he wanted it to work. not great telly tbh... i thought he was gonna demonstrate how to cook some easy basic yummy things. doh.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 23, 2008)

tarannau said:


> To be fair, he does benefit benefit off the books and profile of the series. I actually think his heart's in the right place, even if I think he's an annoying mockney twat in the main.
> 
> However, he's not that philanthropic in the old fashioned sense. He's donating his time, not any of the money derived from selling the book of the series, or any of C4's whopping golden handshake deal he got on the back of media savvy campaigns like this.



He paid for the Rotherham Ministry of Food to be open for a month out of his own pocket.  The profits from some of his books (Cook with Jamie is one of them) goes to his Fifteen Foundation, which helps train underprivileged young people to be cooks.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I'd be pissed off if that was how my town was being portrayed..



Didn't he choose Rotherham because it has the highest levels of obesity in the country?  That's just a fact.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

Ms T said:


> He paid for the Rotherham Ministry of Food to be open for a month out of his own pocket.  The profits from some of his books (Cook with Jamie is one of them) goes to his Fifteen Foundation, which helps train underprivileged young people to be cooks.



It's hardly old fashioned philanthropy though is it? Get others to work unpaid for you and invest short term in something that you know will lead to payback for yourself.

I was led to believe that all proceeds from the Ministry book went straight into Jamie and his magic publisher's pockets.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 23, 2008)

Orangesanlemons said:


> Was it anything approaching the fees paid for those actors playing Oliver's Sainsbury "family"?



Pretty sure he used his own family members in a lot of those adverts. 

(Having seen one of my bosses in them, who is married to Olivers sister)


----------



## Ms T (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Aye but he didn't
> 
> http://jamiegohome.com/page/3/
> 
> ...




I didn't think there were a load of northern sterotypes on there at all, and most of the participants came across really well.  Mick the miner was a lovely bloke who just happened to be a miner - not many of those in the South.  And there are tons of Natashas round my neck of the woods (south London).


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

Ms T said:


> I didn't think there were a load of northern sterotypes on there at all, and most of the participants came across really well.  Mick the miner was a lovely bloke who just happened to be a miner - not many of those in the South.  And there are tons of Natashas round my neck of the woods (south London).



I'd agree entirely with that. If anything that 'Jamie go home' rant typifies, it's a huge chip on the shoulder and the usual north vs south smallmindedness.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

tarannau said:


> I'd agree entirely with that. If anything that 'Jamie go home' rant typifies, it's a huge chip on the shoulder and the usual north vs south smallmindedness.



Have you read it? He takes the whole thing apart pretty scientifically.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Have you read it? He takes the whole thing apart pretty scientifically.



Scientifically? You're having a laugh. Do you know what the word means?

Here's some stats about Rotherham:



> one 11-year-old in six in Rotherham is obese, and 60 per cent of adults overweight.


The Times



> More than 2,000 families from Rotherham – where 60 per cent of locals are overweight – will be helped.
> The Yorkshire town is one of Britain’s most obese, with 600 residents weighing 25 STONE or more.


The Sun (you may have guessed from the capitals)

In some ways it's ahead of the game - a the Department of Health Foresight report in 2007 warned that 60 per cent of adults and a third of children will be clinically obese by 2050. It's a reasonable starting point for a campaign with that in mind, surely?


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Oct 23, 2008)

That blog is great - The first post

http://jamiegohome.com/2008/06/12/jamie-youre-fired/

articulates well why I find the whole thing fucking repellent.




			
				Jamie Go Home said:
			
		

> Learning to do a stir fry is not a tale of grand ambition. To create a narrative which will hook your audience, you’ve got to crank up the stakes. If the pay off is learning to stir fry- you’ve got to start your protagonist pretty low down.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Scientifically? You're having a laugh. Do you know what the word means?
> 
> Here's some stats about Rotherham:
> 
> ...




he says it better than me really..



> > I now reckon that 60% of packed lunches are worse than school dinners. The number of kids as young as five with reheated McDonald’s meals and Red Bull [energy drink] in their packed lunches is appalling,”
> 
> 
> Jamie Oliver speaking at the Hay-on-Wye book festival.
> ...


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

There's nothing scientific about that at all.


it's a rant alright, but it's opinion rather than objective either way. He manages to criticize Oliver for not 'proving' his assertion, then goes in for juicy hypocrisy himself by bandying about all sorts of unsupported accusations. Would you say that his efforts in setting up 15 and supporting youngsters, for example, show a 'deep disrespect for ordinary people' then? 

It's easy to rant against a soft, fat lipped mockney twat, but the writer's clearly a bit of an out of proportion plum with a talent for distortion. Ruling class my arse.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> he says it better than me really..


That's not so much a 'scientific' taking apart of his views as it is a rant.


----------



## madzone (Oct 23, 2008)

How can a kid have a reheated mcdonalds for a packed  lunch?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

Does anybody really think that "reheated McDonalds" is anything other than rhetoric?  Does anybody actually take it literally?  It's just a metaphor for generic processed non-nutritious crap.  And I can well believe that THAT is commonplace, if the all-pervasiveness of adverts for things like "Dairylea Lunchables" is anything to go by.


----------



## madzone (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Does anybody really think that "reheated McDonalds" is anything other than rhetoric? Does anybody actually take it literally? It's just a metaphor for generic processed non-nutritious crap. And I can well believe that THAT is commonplace, if the all-pervasiveness of adverts for things like "Dairylea Lunchables" is anything to go by.


 So why doesn't he just say that? 

And where is he getting 60% from?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to assume it is a class thing.  In fact, by doing so, you are making the exact class stereotyping that you are accusing JOliver of.  On his actual show, he had a real cross-section of people; it's just that the programme-makers chose to concentrate on the one with the most interesting story (and she really did have an interesting development throughout the four programmes, so I can see why they would do so.)  And he has never suggested that he is talking exclusively about working class people either.

No, crap food cuts right across class divide.  I live in the most middle class of Surrey areas and I have some friends that send their kids off with utter shite in their lunch boxes.  It's not 60% of them but it isn't trivial either.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> So why doesn't he just say that?


The fact that you have to ask this question might explain why he is a successful publicist capable of getting his message across to a large cross-section of society and you... aren't.



> And where is he getting 60% from?


It's rhetoric again.  Quite self-evidently so.  Nowhere is there any suggestion that 60% is ANYTHING other than his perception.


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 23, 2008)

susie12 said:


> Anyone watch this?  If you want to see the class system in action give it a go.  Natasha (2 kids, on benefits) said to him "I've sold all my jewellery" - Jamie "What do you mean?" The programme I would like to see would involve Jamie and his wife and kids living on what they would get on benefits.  Serve up salmon on that you tosser.



me and my kids ate salmon last night, new potatoes, beans and peas..

Total cost? about £4.20.... fed 4 of us... £2.70 the salmon was ( 4 pieces)
or is that not ok??? you reckon I couldnt do that on benefits? though I work I am on min benefits/shite wage. I feed my kids fine

1 kebab will cost you around £3....


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Also, I wouldn't be so quick to assume it is a class thing.  In fact, by doing so, you are making the exact class stereotyping that you are accusing JOliver of.  On his actual show, he had a real cross-section of people; it's just that the programme-makers chose to concentrate on the one with the most interesting story (and she really did have an interesting development throughout the four programmes, so I can see why they would do so.)  And he has never suggested that he is talking exclusively about working class people either.
> 
> No, crap food cuts right across class divide.  I live in the most middle class of Surrey areas and I have some friends that send their kids off with utter shite in their lunch boxes.  It's not 60% of them but it isn't trivial either.



Of course it's a class stereotype! Real cross section of people or carefully selected stereotypes (single mum who feeds her kids shit, the sexist bloke who reckons 'cookings not for men' etc etc) There's more stereotypes than you can shake a stick at...

... the guy doing that blog does seem a bit unconvinced that that Natasha lass REALLY had never cooked anything before in her life and he could have a point.

If he wanted to do a cross section of real people he'd even stuff up by offering to go into middle class peoples homes and teach them to cook, maybe start with some students in halls of residence.

Branding Rotheram as town that doesn't know how to cook is pretty down right rude to people who live there and CAN cook.


----------



## madzone (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> The fact that you have to ask this question might explain why he is a successful publicist capable of getting his message across to a large cross-section of society and you... aren't.


 
I have no message to get across  If people want to feed their kids shit that's up to them innit? I don't feel the need to go cavorting off on a high horse and save the world on some moral crusade. He's tilting at kebabs IMO 



> It's rhetoric again. Quite self-evidently so. Nowhere is there any suggestion that 60% is ANYTHING other than his perception.


 
You fancy him don't you?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Of course it's a class stereotype! Real cross section of people or carefully selected stereotypes (single mum who feeds her kids shit, the sexist bloke who reckons 'cookings not for men' etc etc) There's more stereotypes than you can shake a stick at...
> 
> ... the guy doing that blog does seem a bit unconvinced that that Natasha lass REALLY had never cooked anything before in her life and he could have a point.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but did you actually see the show?  Because I don't see how anybody that actually watched the show could describe any part of it in the way that you just have.

Frankly, calling Mick the Miner a sexist bloke is just incredibly, incredibly insulting to a fantastic man, for a start.  Sounds like it is YOU that is buying in to a stereotype.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> I have no message to get across  If people want to feed their kids shit that's up to them innit? I don't feel the need to go cavorting off on a high horse and save the world on some moral crusade. He's tilting at kebabs IMO


And he does have a message to get across and he is successfully using rhetoric and other debating tricks to do so.  Instinctively, too.  So what's your organic beef?  

I don't think you are really " confused" at all.  I think that you are being faux-naif here (to steal your own phrase from another thread).  The man is making a point and doing so pretty damned successfully.



> You fancy him don't you?


Little bit.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> I'm sorry, but did you actually see the show?  Because I don't see how anybody that actually watched the show could describe any part of it in the way that you just have.
> 
> Frankly, calling Mick the Miner a sexist bloke is just incredibly, incredibly insulting to a fantastic man, for a start.  Sounds like it is YOU that is buying in to a stereotype.



duh they wanted someone to portray a sexist stereotype

ps I'm pretty sure he wants to be on tv and has been happy to go along with this -- he was on look north and calendar last night


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> duh they wanted someone to portray a sexist stereotype


Then they failed.  They failed even to pretend to portray it, in fact.

You didn't watch it, did you?  Just admit it.


----------



## madzone (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> And he does have a message to get across and he is successfully using rhetoric and other debating tricks to do so. Instinctively, too. So what's your organic beef?
> 
> I don't think you are really " confused" at all. I think that you are being faux-naif here (to steal your own phrase from another thread). The man is making a point and doing so pretty damned successfully.


 

We'll see if the levels of obesity go down then  

I pinched the phrase faux naif off someone else - dot communist I think



> Little bit.


 
Rose tinted testacles


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> Rose tinted testacles


Ah, a delicacy.


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Branding Rotheram as town that doesn't know how to cook is pretty down right rude to people who live there and CAN cook.




But in last nights show he did mention people who can cook, bringing food to share.. they even showed it being served up a few programmes ago they showed that Julie woman serving up a beautifully cooked roast dinner for her family and Jamie being shocked that with her attitude towards healthy food - she could actually cook regardless...

Its just a shame that they havent shown more of it, got those people sharingt some of their favourite recipes but that wasnt the original concept of the show was it? I reckon of the idea of passing on their skills catches on, those are the sort of things which would happen anyway... I thought despite the stereotypes they raised a few very valid issues in the show, the lack of community, the lack of closeness in some families which would lead to skills being passed on and the closure of any sort of provision for the teaching of cookery which has been systematically done away with by the government in schools over the years with the curriculum concentrating on DCT or whatever its called these days rather than actual skills in cooking etc which was seen as unecessary and old fashioned, even sexist maybe....

Can you still do a 'home economics' GCSE? I doubt it... for all the negatives there are some very valid things shown, not least the promotion of places people can learn to feed their families well.. whatever form that takes.
If you can already cook you wont use them... if you cant you may still not use them so some sort of encouragement to pass on skills has to be a good thing surely?


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> duh they wanted someone to portray a sexist stereotype
> 
> ps I'm pretty sure he wants to be on tv and has been happy to go along with this -- he was on look north and calendar last night



Maybe its a local thing? In many welsh communities people are still known by their trade, Dai Car ( the mechanic) and so on...
If hes happy with it wheres the problem? Jamie was shown visiting the mine and saying he completely understood ( and didnt before) why these guys would be too absolutely fucked to cook anything at the end of the day...


----------



## madzone (Oct 23, 2008)

Slightly OT but I'll tell you what pisses me off - all the snitty letters home from school about healthy packed lunches, fruity feckin friday, blah blah blah and what does the school tuck shop sell? Cakes, fucking cakes and scones.


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> Slightly OT but I'll tell you what pisses me off - all the snitty letters home from school about healthy packed lunches, fruity feckin friday, blah blah blah and what does the school tuck shop sell? Cakes, fucking cakes and scones.



I agree...
I was a helper at my kids old school and the kids on dinners were served utter shite, all the crap Jamie Oliver was campaigning against... while letters reminding parents they should send a 'healthy and balanced ' packed lunch or of course they could have their child eat a nice balanced school dinner....

It was all turkey twizzlers and fat saturated shite


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> Slightly OT but I'll tell you what pisses me off - all the snitty letters home from school about healthy packed lunches, fruity feckin friday, blah blah blah and what does the school tuck shop sell? Cakes, fucking cakes and scones.



You're in agreement with Jamie Oliver there, then!


----------



## madzone (Oct 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> You're in agreement with Jamie Oliver there, then!


 I don't entirely disagree with him or his campaign. I just find it amusing that a different set of rules seem to apply to him when he's spouting made up opinion as facts 

And 78% of people agree with me


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> And 78% of people agree with me


For that to be equivalent, you would have to say:

"I now reckon that 78% of people agree with me."  

Because that's how he actually put it.


----------



## madzone (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> For that to be equivalent, you would have to say:
> 
> "I now reckon that 78% of people agree with me."
> 
> Because that's how he actually put it.


 Kabbes and Jamie sitting in a tree............


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

Imagine what he could do with that tongue, though.


----------



## madzone (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Imagine what he could do with that tongue, though.


----------



## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> I pinched the phrase faux naif off someone else - dot communist I think



Yeah, and he pinched it off me


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

But I'm sure that you must have pinched it off me.  And so the circle turns.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2008)

Um, it's quite a well-known phrase - it's in the dictionary too. Who did they pinch it off?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Um, it's quite a well-known phrase - it's in the dictionary too. Who did they pinch it off?


The French.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> The French.



Touché.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 23, 2008)

Slightly off-topic, but I am sick of being told that middle-class people like to sneer and look down at working-class people.  Some people might, yes.  But lots of middle-class people have working-class backgrounds.  Lots of middle-class people are, gasp, decent individuals.  And there are plenty of working-class tossers out there too.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Touché.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> How can a kid have a reheated mcdonalds for a packed  lunch?



I was utterly shocked to hear my mother describe some of the lunches her primary school children had at lunch time. Cold pizza, cold chicken and chips form those chicken cottage type places, not to mention the sheer uhealthy variety of lunchables,chocolates and cans of fizzy drinks etc. That happened quite regularly in her school. 

Should schools be allowed to confiscate takeaway meals if they are judged to be too unhealthy, providing them with a free school meal instead?


----------



## madzone (Oct 23, 2008)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> I was utterly shocked to hear my mother describe some of the lunches her primary school children had at lunch time. Cold pizza, cold chicken and chips form those chicken cottage type places, not to mention the sheer uhealthy variety of lunchables,chocolates and cans of fizzy drinks etc. That happened quite regularly in her school.
> 
> Should schools be allowed to confiscate takeaway meals if they are judged to be too unhealthy, providing them with a free school meal instead?


 As if the school meals are any better 

I meant how can a child have a reheated mcdonalds in their lunchbox - where would they reheat it?


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> Slightly OT but I'll tell you what pisses me off - all the snitty letters home from school about healthy packed lunches, fruity feckin friday, blah blah blah and what does the school tuck shop sell? Cakes, fucking cakes and scones.



That's a bit contradictory. Our primary school not only didn't sell crisps and sweets but you weren't allowed to bring them in at all and had a decent school dinner - maybe not very imaginative but definitely edible. By high school there was a tuck shop selling shite, a vending machine and completely inedible cheapo "cafeteria" style serving up nasty burgers and stale pizzas. Not surprisingly most of us voted with our feet and went to the sandwich shop/ chippie.

While I don't have a problem with banning crisps and sweets from school, I don't think there should be 'lunchbox police' telling parents they're sending their kids in with the wrong type of bread or owt.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> As if the school meals are any better
> 
> *I meant how can a child have a reheated mcdonalds in their lunchbox - where would they reheat it*?



That 'story' sounds like a load of bullshit q frankly.


----------



## madzone (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> That 'story' sounds like a load of bullshit q frankly.


 I agree.

Fair do's, people are saying it's only his opinion but if the bloke is taking voluntary charge of the moral nutrition of the countries' working classes he's going to have to stop making things up if he wants anyone to take him seriously


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

So, just off the cuff like, did you watch the shows then, angel?  Any of them?  All of them?


----------



## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> I agree.
> 
> Fair do's, people are saying it's only his opinion but if the bloke is taking voluntary charge of the moral nutrition of the countries' working classes he's going to have to stop making things up if he wants anyone to take him seriously



Yep.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> As if the school meals are any better
> 
> I meant how can a child have a reheated mcdonalds in their lunchbox - where would they reheat it?



My daughter's school meals are lovely and still healthy (I've even eaten them a few times myself, partly when working there and once when on a special taster session they did for parents). I don't think Jamie Oliver or anyone else was saying that bad school dinners, like turkey twizzlers, are better than bad packed lunches. In fact, I seem to remember a campaign by some celebrity chef or other, criticising such school dinners, saying that they should improve ... 

You can't have reheated McDonald's, but you can have cold burgers and stuff. TBH, the stuff you see in the supermarkets, aimed at the school lunch market, is pretty dire - lunchables and so on. It's not that easy to do packed lunches which are healthy, will survive being kept in a schoolbag all morning, and will be eaten by kids.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> I agree.
> 
> Fair do's, people are saying it's only his opinion but if the bloke is taking voluntary charge of the moral nutrition of the countries' working classes he's going to have to stop making things up if he wants anyone to take him seriously


And I repeat again: it obviously wasn't meant to be taken literally and I would be surprised if anybody did indeed take him literally.  It's called rhetoric and it is an effective public speaking tactic.
You get the message.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2008)

BTW, the other part - little kids having Red Bull in their packed lunches - that's not disputed, is it? I've seen that for myself.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> So, just off the cuff like, did you watch the shows then, angel?  Any of them?  All of them?



ive watched all of them and have no idea why you're implying otherwise tbh


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> BTW, the other part - little kids having Red Bull in their packed lunches - that's not disputed, is it? I've seen that for myself.



Red bull oughtn't be on sale to children at all!!!


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> My daughter's school meals are lovely and still healthy (I've even eaten them a few times myself, partly when working there and once when on a special taster session they did for parents). I don't think Jamie Oliver or anyone else was saying that bad school dinners, like turkey twizzlers, are better than bad packed lunches. In fact, I seem to remember a campaign by some celebrity chef or other, criticising such school dinners, saying that they should improve ...
> 
> You can't have reheated McDonald's, but you can have cold burgers and stuff. TBH, the stuff you see in the supermarkets, aimed at the school lunch market, is pretty dire - lunchables and so on. It's not that easy to do packed lunches which are healthy, will survive being kept in a schoolbag all morning, and will be eaten by kids.



Think maybe there needs to be more regulation/ honesty about the food that is marketed to children/ parents for packed lunches etc etc.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Think maybe there needs to be more regulation/ honesty about the food that is marketed to children/ parents for packed lunches etc etc.



A cold burger is probably healthier than some of that stuff. 

Though, like I said, people go for it because packed lunches are hard to do well _and_ healthily. Another tuna sandwich? Peanut butter and jam is healthy, but not for every day, plus some kids don't like it and some schools forbid it. More pasta salad that goes a bit manky in the tub and isn't really all that healthy anyway, since you know the kids'll probably move aside the veggies?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> ive watched all of them and have no idea why you're implying otherwise tbh


Because I find it simply incredible that anybody could watch the programme and interpret it in the way you are choosing to.  For example, suggesting that Mick the miner was presented as a "stereotypical sexist" -- nothing could be further from the truth.

To have actually watched it and filtered it in the way you are doing so implies one HELL of a pre-existing axe to grind.  You'd have to literally only take in the one or two moments that agree with your bias and discard everything else.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Because I find it simply incredible that anybody could watch the programme and interpret it in the way you are choosing to.  For example, suggesting that Mick the miner was presented as a "stereotypical sexist" -- nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> To have actually watched it and filtered it in the way you are doing so implies one HELL of a pre-existing axe to grind.  You'd have to literally only take in the one or two moments that agree with your bias and discard everything else.




I can't believe you're being this niave about it!


----------



## madzone (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> And I repeat again: it obviously wasn't meant to be taken literally and I would be surprised if anybody did indeed take him literally. It's called rhetoric and it is an effective public speaking tactic.
> You get the message.


 
The bloke is a self proclaimed 'expert' on the nation's nutrition and has set himself up as some kind of guru. Is it too much to ask that he just thinks before opening his floppy gob? He's trying to influence people's behaviour as much if not more than any politician yet I don't see many people saying 'Oh well, tis only his opinion isn't it?' when some politician shouts his mouth off without thinking

You need to question why you won't hear anything against J.O even when he's clearly talking shit.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2008)

It didn't seem to me like he was being presented as a stereotypical sexist, either. The only thing stereotypical was Northern=miner. But he seemed really nice, had a lovely house, didn't cook partly because his job made him too knackered to do so, and wasn't presented negatively in any way.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

I used to hate Jamie Oliver, as it happens, but seeing him over the last few years has changed my opinion of him.  He's come a long way since he was annoying me riding around on a moped.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I can't believe you're being this niave about it!



Said the woman who thought that 'Jamie go Home' rant was 'scientific'


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> It didn't seem to me like he was being presented as a stereotypical sexist, either. The only thing stereotypical was Northern=miner. But he seemed really nice, had a lovely house, didn't cook partly because his job made him too knackered to do so, and wasn't presented negatively in any way.



I don't think there's anything unusual about a man of his generation not cooking, but, allegedly he said 'cookings for poofs' etc etc


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> The bloke is a self proclaimed 'expert' on the nation's nutrition and has set himself up as some kind of guru. Is it too much to ask that he just thinks before opening his floppy gob? He's trying to influence people's behaviour as much if not more than any politician yet I don't see many people saying 'Oh well, tis only his opinion isn't it?' when some politician shouts his mouth off without thinking
> 
> You need to question why you won't hear anything against J.O even when he's clearly talking shit.



I'm not sure why you're so bothered about one throwaway line said at some book festival. He's campaigning to help people help themselves and help each other, and not assuming that people just know how to cook without ever being taught to. I just can't see anything wrong with that.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I don't think there's anything unusual about a man of his generation not cooking, but, allegedly he said 'cookings for poofs' etc etc



"Allegedly"?  Alleged by whom?


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Said the woman who thought that 'Jamie go Home' rant was 'scientific'



That was off the top of my head, 'thorough' would be more accurate.


----------



## mrsfran (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I don't think there's anything unusual about a man of his generation not cooking, but, allegedly he said 'cookings for poofs' etc etc


 
I watched the whole thing. He didn't say anything of the sort. He was presented and came accross as a really nice bloke.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I don't think there's anything unusual about a man of his generation not cooking, but, allegedly he said 'cookings for poofs' etc etc



In the show? Well, if he did, would that really be so surprising? It's the way most men of my parents' generation talk.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

He certainly 'thoroughly' ranted, but there was little substance to his words.

What did you think about those stats which showed Rotherham to be one of the most obese cities in the country btw, already reflecting predictions that 60% of adults would be obese by 2050? Wouldn't you say that massively had a say in the selection of Rotherham and made a lot of his rant look foolishly defensive?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

missfran said:


> I watched the whole thing. He didn't say anything of the sort. He was presented and came accross as a really nice bloke.


It's things like this that made me question whether angel actually watched the show.  What the hell is all this "he allegedly said this" crap about?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

missfran said:


> I watched the whole thing. He didn't say anything of the sort. He was presented and came accross as a really nice bloke.



Yep. he came across really well, as did his mining mates. You were left with the abiding impression of nice fellas proud of their new knowledge.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

tarannau said:


> He certainly 'thoroughly' ranted, but there was little substance to his words.
> 
> What did you think about those stats which showed Rotherham to be one of the most obese cities in the country btw, already reflecting predictions that 60% of adults would be obese by 2050? Wouldn't you say that massively had a say in the selection of Rotherham and made a lot of his rant look foolishly defensive?



That's not exactly the point - it's the way Rotherham has been portrayed in the media and people in the media subsequently portraying it in a bad light. I can see how a Rotherhamite would be pissed off with it -- can't you?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

In what way do you think that Rotherham was presented in a bad light on the show?   Can you be specific please?  Because I was left with the impression of a pleasant market down with spectacular scenery and a friendly and varied populace.

Just because you have a chip on your shoulder, doesn't mean that it's actually raining potatoes.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> In what way do you think that Rotherham was presented in a bad light on the show?   Can you be specific please?  Because I was left with the impression of a pleasant market down with spectacular scenery and a friendly and varied populace.
> 
> Just because you have a chip on your shoulder, doesn't mean that it's actually raining potatoes.



It's clear that you're just totally blind to this!


The blanket assumption that he, Jamie, needs to teach Rotherham to cook because clearly nobody can do was a bad one for a start off.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

Why do you think that was the assumption?  Where was it stated that nobody can cook in Rotherham?  Where was it stated that he thought that the campaign needed to be restricted to Rotherham, or even the north in general?


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I can see how a Rotherhamite would be pissed off with it -- can't you?


I think this is one of those cases where people see what they are looking for. Like Mary Whitehouse seeing filth everywhere. If you want to get offended by the portrayal of something, you'll find something to satisfy that desire.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Why do you think that was the assumption?  Where was it stated that nobody can cook in Rotherham?  Where was it stated that he thought that the campaign needed to be restricted to Rotherham, or even the north in general?



He said tonnes of times how he needed to get Rotherham taught how to cook. Treating everyone as if they were the same. A more correct statement would be "teaching non cooks how to cook" and even then I reckon people would still be free to tell him to f off.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

Look -- at the end of the day, he convinced thousands of people to join in the activities of teaching each other recipes.  He set up a town centre location that became a hive of activity for people coming in to learn how to cook.  He managed to reach hundreds of people that had never cooked before and ignite some enthusiasm in them.

You'd deny all of those people out of a fear that it might make the town look bad.

Bollocks to that.  There is not a town in the country that doesn't have a sizable population that doesn't know how to cook.  This could have been done *anywhere*.  But it was done in Rotherham, because it *does* have an obesity problem and there was an easy publicity hook around Julie Crichlow.

And he was successful enough that a whole load of other towns were convinced to do it themselves.  They too know that their town has a problem and this can help to address it.

And yes, the slogan was to "get Rotherham cooking".  Nothing wrong with that.  It doesn't imply that there wasn't already lots of good cooks.

But you have a massive great chip on your shoulder that the north could possibly ever be portrayed as anything other than perfect, so you'd prefer all those thousands of people to just carry on eating fucking kebabs.  Well done you.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2008)

kabbes, does it still confuse you when people type 'kebabs', because it looks a little like 'kabbes' (even though the words 'kebabs' and 'kabbes' are quite different, although 'kebabs' is an anagram of 'kabbes', and indeed 'kabbes' is an anagram of 'kebabs' (or we could simply say that 'kebabs' and 'kabbes' are anagrams of each other))?


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> That's not exactly the point - it's the way Rotherham has been portrayed in the media and people in the media subsequently portraying it in a bad light. I can see how a Rotherhamite would be pissed off with it -- can't you?



I do kinda see what you mean, but it sounds like you're talking about other media rather than this programme.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2008)

Alex B said:


> kabbes, does it still confuse you when people type 'kebabs', because it looks a little like 'kabbes' (even though the words 'kebabs' and 'kabbes' are quite different, although 'kebabs' is an anagram of 'kabbes', and indeed 'kabbes' is an anagram of 'kebabs' (or we could simply say that 'kebabs' and 'kabbes' are anagrams of each other))?



He should just change his name to Cabbage, and be healthier with it! Or Kabbage, to be down wit da yoof.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

Kab off.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 23, 2008)

Is this just Northerners suffering Northern guilt and hating a southerner coming up and telling them they can't cook and are fat cunts??


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2008)

OK, so, I'm taking these two things as a given:


There are lots of people in the UK who don't know how to cook well, meaning that they don't know how to make nutritious, tasty food (from cheap ingredients if necessary). The reasons are manifold, but include working practices and lack of cookery teaching in schools (as well as lack of good examples in school dinners). 

Something must be done about this. 


Who do people think would be best-placed to do something about this? The government's making some effort, but most of us don't trust them. 

TV and the internet is where we get most of our info these days. So someone on TV would be good. That person would preferably be someone who knows how to cook well, yes? That person would also be someone with a background that was ordinary enough that he didn't seem alien to most people, yes? That person would also be someone who was well-known enough that he could get funding, advertising, etc, so that the project would get funding and media time. 

Who could possibly fit those criteria?


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I don't think there's anything unusual about a man of his generation not cooking, but, allegedly he said 'cookings for poofs' etc etc




So they cant show him because he has some stereotypical attributes or opinions? 

Angel did you notuce there were about 25 people in Jamies classes- they wont have shown them all, just the charismatic ones who were actually grasping the idea and getting enthused about it... the ones who make good telly


----------



## kabbes (Oct 23, 2008)

Ah, but that person must also never make a programme where it is hinted that the north is anything other than utterly perfect.  Apparently.


----------



## cyberfairy (Oct 23, 2008)

madzone said:


> As if the school meals are any better
> 
> I meant how can a child have a reheated mcdonalds in their lunchbox - where would they reheat it?



I've found a fair few half eaten big macs and cold cold fries in kids lunches at my nursery. One kids has come in with cold congealed supernoodles and nothing else! It is generally cold chicken nuggets though.  His parents are both doctors. Funnily enough, the kid who brings in a tin of Asda economy spaghetti hoops with a note saying they have to last three days has university lecturers for parents. 
 Meanwhile, my school (on rough council estate) serves amazing food every day for a tiny sum-baked potatoes for snack are 20p and free fruit is in every room


----------



## ebay sex moomin (Oct 23, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Is this just Northerners suffering Northern guilt and hating a southerner coming up and telling them they can't cook and are fat cunts??



what the *fuck* is 'Northern guilt'?! 

(incidently, I'm not fat, and I can cook- my veggie chow mein is _to die for _)

I dunno. I've seen the show, and I've read the thread as well... I just can't call it. I read about 15 pages of the thread before watching the show, and was expecting a real car-crash, and the show certainly isn't that. However, something about it doesn't sit well with me. I can't put my finger on it though. 

there's nothing overtly wrong about it, but something isn't right. I don't know what it is, it's niggling me. maybe I have a vague sense that Mr Oliver is trying to be 'food Jesus', come to save us all. however, I don't dislike him, and I don't think he is being in any way disingenuous in this show- he's clearly committed.

I think the concept is laudable, but its execution is flawed. The show opens up a whole can of worms that can't be solved with a snappy three word slogan.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> I do kinda see what you mean, but it sounds like you're talking about other media rather than this programme.



Other media is going to feed off of this kind of publicity, that's the nature of it.




This is what an article in the Independent had to say...




> When I set off to live in Rotherham for six months to write 'Welcome to Everytown', some people quipped that they would have to send me food parcels. It was a bad joke then – didn't they know that my local Morrisons stocked such delicacies as octopus and excellent local cheeses? But it's an even worse one now. Jamie Oliver has managed not only to confirm every negative stereotype about northern pie and chip-eating monsters, he's made the caricature worse.







> Jamie's crime is not that what he shows isn't real, it's that it is presented as the norm.







> When I was back in the town recently, I met a local doctor who had provided a programme researcher with obesity statistics, only to be asked if he could find worse ones



I mean it's television, of course they're going to portray things in the most sensational way possible, there would just be no show otherwise..


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 24, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> It's clear that you're just totally blind to this!
> 
> 
> The blanket assumption that he, Jamie, needs to teach Rotherham to cook because clearly nobody can do was a bad one for a start off.



No... the portrayal was of an average town in the Uk where many many people ( for whatever reason) do not coolk from scratch.. and the revlation that many dont actually know how to cook, not even boil water.

Delia did something similar a few years ago... she even did how to boil an egg....
preumably because nice middle class ladies didnt have a clue either


----------



## fractionMan (Oct 24, 2008)

cyberfairy said:


> I've found a fair few half eaten big macs and cold cold fries in kids lunches at my nursery. One kids has come in with cold congealed supernoodles and nothing else! It is generally cold chicken nuggets though.  His parents are both doctors. Funnily enough, the kid who brings in a tin of Asda economy spaghetti hoops with a note saying they have to last three days has university lecturers for parents.



wtf! 



> Meanwhile, my school (on rough council estate) serves amazing food every day for a tiny sum-baked potatoes for snack are 20p and free fruit is in every room


----------



## Relahni (Oct 24, 2008)

ebay sex moomin said:


> .
> 
> I think the concept is laudable, but its execution is flawed. The show opens up a whole can of worms that can't be solved with *a snappy three word slogan*.



You fat bastard?

Fuck off Jamie?

What a cunt?


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 24, 2008)

fractionMan said:


> wtf!



This has been something I heard from someone who works in a nursery in 'the vale' an extremely afluent semi rural area near cardiff.

The parents who struggle to pay the nursery fees are also the ones with kids who turn up in clean, ironed clothes and with a nutritious lunch...

The ladies who lunch throw their kids in through the door with something theyve grabbed from the fridge, so busy are they to get on with their essential daily tasks, manicures, shopping and organising the household staff ( thats if they dont have an au pair or nanny)


----------



## likesfish (Oct 24, 2008)

scifisam said:


> BTW, the other part - little kids having Red Bull in their packed lunches - that's not disputed, is it? I've seen that for myself.



we had a child come climbing with us lunch was 3 cans of red bull and a packet of haribo his family weren't poor owned mountain bike quad bike portable dvd player etc.
 child for a residential brought a case of red bull with him was 13 ffs


----------



## cyberfairy (Oct 24, 2008)

LilMissHissyFit said:


> This has been something I heard from someone who works in a nursery in 'the vale' an extremely afluent semi rural area near cardiff.
> 
> The parents who struggle to pay the nursery fees are also the ones with kids who turn up in clean, ironed clothes and with a nutritious lunch...
> 
> The ladies who lunch throw their kids in through the door with something theyve grabbed from the fridge, so busy are they to get on with their essential daily tasks, manicures, shopping and organising the household staff ( thats if they dont have an au pair or nanny)



I babysat for some millionaires in Bath-in their enormous walk in fridge groaning with wonderful foods, was a drawer full of economy crap for the kids.


----------



## fractionMan (Oct 24, 2008)

That astounds me.  I mean why would you feed your kids shit you wouldn't eat yourself?


----------



## madzone (Oct 24, 2008)

LilMissHissyFit said:


> No... the portrayal was of an average town in the Uk where many many people ( for whatever reason) do not coolk from scratch.. and the revlation that many dont actually know how to cook, not even boil water.
> 
> Delia did something similar a few years ago... she even did how to boil an egg....
> preumably because nice middle class ladies didnt have a clue either


 I can't boil eggs


----------



## kabbes (Oct 24, 2008)

Take an egg and some water...


----------



## fractionMan (Oct 24, 2008)

madzone said:


> I can't boil eggs



you can't cook steaks either


----------



## Santino (Oct 24, 2008)

LilMissHissyFit said:


> This has been something I heard from someone who works in a nursery in 'the vale' an extremely afluent semi rural area near cardiff.
> 
> The parents who struggle to pay the nursery fees are also the ones with kids who turn up in clean, ironed clothes and with a nutritious lunch...
> 
> The ladies who lunch throw their kids in through the door with something theyve grabbed from the fridge, so busy are they to get on with their essential daily tasks, manicures, shopping and organising the household staff ( thats if they dont have an au pair or nanny)


There's nothing like sound demographic research for confirming one's class prejudices.


----------



## madzone (Oct 24, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Take an egg and some water...


 And..................


I can cook a perfect roast dinner for 10 people but I can't boil an egg.


----------



## madzone (Oct 24, 2008)

fractionMan said:


> you can't cook steaks either


You'll never let that go will you


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Oct 24, 2008)

madzone said:


> And..................
> 
> 
> I can cook a perfect roast dinner for 10 people but I can't boil an egg.


I googled it


----------



## madzone (Oct 24, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> I googled it


 Doesn't matter what I do. Timers, the lot, nothing works. I'm just shit at boiled eggs


----------



## kabbes (Oct 24, 2008)

Actually, I have a way of boiling eggs that works perfectly for me every time, if you are really interested.  It's completely at odds with what everybody else will tell you, but it works for me.  The problem, I find, with the standard method is that picking the moment that the water can be said to be "boiling" rather than "simmering" is all a bit vague, so saying "3 mins from it starting to boil" has a lot of chance to go wrong.  Instead, I get the water thoroughly boiling first and then VERY GENTLY add the eggs -- it's very easy to crack them, so do it slowly -- and boil for 7 minutes.  7 minutes will make them just with a runny yolk and no runny white.  8 minutes is enough to turn the yolk hard.

There you go, try that.


----------



## madzone (Oct 24, 2008)

I don't like boiled eggs


----------



## kabbes (Oct 24, 2008)

Dammit.  It was all a set-up for the gag, wasn't it?


----------



## madzone (Oct 24, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Dammit. It was all a set-up for the gag, wasn't it?


 No  Just couldn't resist.

My kids like boiled eggs even if I don't so I'll try your method next time they want them (if the chickens ever start laying eggs again  )


----------



## kabbes (Oct 24, 2008)

It was very funny though, I thought.  Great comic timing, which isn't easy to pull off in this medium.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 24, 2008)

Never mind Rotherham, Jamie needs to get down to the Citrus Cafe, Headingley pronto and impress upon them the importance of serving food _fresh_ and _hot_..


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 24, 2008)

Alex B said:


> There's nothing like sound demographic research for confirming one's class prejudices.



I wasnt aware this was a university thersis... Its struck me as more of an inane discussion on an internet forum- clearly I was mistaken
Would you like to present the stats, pie charts and all the references whenever you post something?
No thought not


----------



## ebay sex moomin (Oct 25, 2008)

ebay sex moomin said:


> I think the concept is laudable, but its execution is flawed. The show opens up a whole can of worms that can't be solved with *a snappy three word slogan.*





Relahni said:


> You fat bastard?
> 
> Fuck off Jamie?
> 
> What a cunt?




sorry, that's proper made me chuckle!


----------



## Santino (Oct 25, 2008)

LilMissHissyFit said:


> I wasnt aware this was a university thersis... Its struck me as more of an inane discussion on an internet forum- clearly I was mistaken
> Would you like to present the stats, pie charts and all the references whenever you post something?
> No thought not


You do realise that there is an acceptable middle ground between posting a peer-reviewed academic paper and spouting ill-informed, second-hand waffle?


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 25, 2008)

fractionMan said:


> That astounds me.  I mean why would you feed your kids shit you wouldn't eat yourself?



Errr because maybe the kids don't like 'adult food'???


----------



## Kanda (Oct 25, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Errr because maybe the kids don't like 'adult food'???



Eh???

How do they know the difference unless someone makes it known to them?

I always had to eat what my parents gave me, no choice, no arguments


----------



## madzone (Oct 25, 2008)

Harry Hill was just very funny about the whole thing


----------



## madzone (Oct 25, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Eh???
> 
> How do they know the difference unless someone makes it known to them?
> 
> I always had to eat what my parents gave me, no choice, no arguments


 Much as it pains me I agree with you (to a certain extent)

I think kids are trained to like what they like. Unfortunately that training can take place at school and with other kids.

Or it can be down to personality. My eldest and my youngest will eat anything I put in front of them and are both very adventurous with food. My middle boy? He'd live on chicken nuggets.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 25, 2008)

I agree about school and other kids. But I had a fear/respect for my parents (it's too fine a line to pick one ) and I done as told.

No respect these days, bloody kids


----------



## madzone (Oct 25, 2008)

Kanda said:


> I agree about school and other kids. But I had a fear/respect for my parents (it's too fine a line to pick one ) and I done as told.
> 
> No respect these days, bloody kids


 Joking aside, you're right.

The thing I say to my kids more than anything is, 'If I'd spoken to my parents like that...........'


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 25, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Eh???
> 
> How do they know the difference unless someone makes it known to them?
> 
> I always had to eat what my parents gave me, no choice, no arguments



Maybe they have had it and rejected it? All I know this week is I've made cauliflower cheese, mushroom korma, a chicken korma, and lasagne all from scratch and one or both of the boys have turned their noses up at it!

Yes, I was a kid that would eat absolutely anything (not like that now) but neither of the boys are like that, though they somehow manage to eat a fairly varied diet anyhow. It is VERY frustrating when they won't even try something you made - or won't have something they have eaten in the past.

If you are on any sort of budget you do get nervous of throwing away a lot of food.

And I know people who have had parents who've made a big deal about being made to eat everything (especially vegetables) and they've turned into people with issues about certain foods as a result..


----------



## Kanda (Oct 25, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> .
> 
> If you are on any sort of budget you do get nervous of throwing away a lot of food.



This is why I had to eat it, there wasn't any other choice. 

I was once kept up till 2am as I wasn't allowed to leave the table till my dinner was eaten... my step dad was a cunt , but it taught me something when he spent the whole time explaining why he couldn't offer me an alternative and that I literally couldn't afford to be fussy.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 25, 2008)

Kanda said:


> This is why I had to eat it, there wasn't any other choice.
> 
> I was once kept up till 2am as I wasn't allowed to leave the table till my dinner was eaten... my step dad was a cunt , but it taught me something when he spent the whole time explaining why he couldn't offer me an alternative and that I literally couldn't afford to be fussy.



Personally I think it's not the right thing to do to a child (forcing them to eat a cold meal hours later)--- but I won't be coerced into making an alternative, now, if they don't want what they've been given it's tough.

In our house if I didn't eat fast enough my dad would have the rest -- you had to be fast...


----------



## madzone (Oct 25, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Maybe they have had it and rejected it? All I know this week is I've made cauliflower cheese, mushroom korma, a chicken korma, and lasagne all from scratch and one or both of the boys have turned their noses up at it!
> 
> Yes, I was a kid that would eat absolutely anything (not like that now) but neither of the boys are like that, though they somehow manage to eat a fairly varied diet anyhow. It is VERY frustrating when they won't even try something you made - or won't have something they have eaten in the past.
> 
> ...


 
And you're right too.

I think I've let my kids dictate to me what they'll eat to a certain extent. However, I don't think people realise how fucking difficult it is to be a parent these days. Stress ,lack of time, lack of funds.... it's easy to find yourself in a position where the kids are dictating what they'll eat and what they won't and if I'm honest I often give in due to the factors mentioned above. It' is also genuinely cheapre if you look at labour cotss and cooking costs - i.e I can chuck some 'junk food' in the oven for 20 minutes and it's all over - job done. My kids are also really grateful 

Or I can spend a couple of hours preparing and cooking stuff that they'll probably moan about.

My compromise is that I cook a small number of home cooked meals that I know they'll all eat but that I do't actually like or that aren't that good for me - i.e they make me gain weight or I just plian don't like.


Anyway - long post short  if anyone thinks it's easy being a parent,cooking for particualr kids they're welcome to come and try with mine 

Apols for any typing-slurring -valium's kicking in


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## Kanda (Oct 25, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Personally I think it's not the right thing to do to a child (forcing them to eat a cold meal hours later)



Absolutely agree. Last time I ever done it though.


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## _angel_ (Oct 25, 2008)

madzone said:


> And you're right too.
> 
> I think I've let my kids dictate to me what they'll eat to a certain extent. However, I don't think people realise how fucking difficult it is to be a parent these days. Stress ,lack of time, lack of funds.... it's easy to find yourself in a position where the kids are dictating what they'll eat and what they won't and if I'm honest I often give in due to the factors mentioned above. It' is also genuinely cheapre if you look at labour cotss and cooking costs - i.e I can chuck some 'junk food' in the oven for 20 minutes and it's all over - job done. My kids are also really grateful
> 
> ...



Heh. Sounds familiar. Got to say I'm slightly more adventurous now I know the boys are A BIT more likely to try stuff than they used to be, plus I've got a boyfriend and finally a dog to eat anything that's left.....(And I'm in all day) But yep, far more enthusiasm for fish fingers and chips that takes no time to prepare and hardly anytime to cook, than the hanging around and waiting to prepare a 'proper' meal.


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## madzone (Oct 25, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Heh. Sounds familiar. Got to say I'm slightly more adventurous now I know the boys are A BIT more likely to try stuff than they used to be, plus I've got a boyfriend and finally a dog to eat anything that's left.....(And I'm in all day) But yep, far more enthusiasm for fish fingers and chips that takes no time to prepare and hardly anytime to cook, than the hanging around and waiting to prepare a 'proper' meal.


 And (my bestest boy buddy was utterly shocked at this) I fucking HATE cooking


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## xenon (Oct 26, 2008)

missfran said:


> Innit. Ten quid a night on takeaways and she's complaining she couldn't afford to feed her family any better. Utter rubbish.
> 
> I actually quite liked Jaimie's honesty - he admitted he couldn't understand their situation but didn't patronise them. It IS disgraceful that she'd never, ever cooked her children a meal. Cheesy chips and kebabs every night and doesn't even know how to turn the oven on. That's nothing to do with being poor or working class.




Exactly. Saw one episode. These peple were depressingly thick. Fuck all to do with money or class. They're just ignorant.

Jamey Oliver's a bit annoying but I like his enthusiasm and down to earth approach.


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## xenon (Oct 26, 2008)

16 frigging pages? Didn't notice that..


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## mentalchik (Oct 26, 2008)

madzone said:


> And (my bestest boy buddy was utterly shocked at this) I fucking HATE cooking



Me too madz.................i think given more time, more money and being less knackered i might have more enthusiasm........but other than that.....meh !


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## Fuchs66 (Oct 26, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Personally I think it's not the right thing to do to a child (forcing them to eat a cold meal hours later)--- but I won't be coerced into making an alternative, now, if they don't want what they've been given it's tough.
> 
> In our house if I didn't eat fast enough my dad would have the rest -- you had to be fast...



Totally agree here when my kids visit me they get meals served and if they dont like it the plate gets cling filmed and goes in the fridge, hunger usually changes their minds soon enough, (I must admit this has very seldom occurred as they have been given a varied diet from the start and their mum plays along with the tactic).

I was one of 6 kids so learned very quickly to eat anything or it would disappear.


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## likesfish (Oct 26, 2008)

xenon said:


> Exactly. Saw one episode. These peple were depressingly thick. Fuck all to do with money or class. They're just ignorant.
> 
> Jamey Oliver's a bit annoying but I like his enthusiasm and down to earth approach.


 not thick just never been shown if you've never been shown how to cook the whole thing can be intimidating


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## Fuchs66 (Oct 26, 2008)

likesfish said:


> not thick just never been shown if you've never been shown how to cook the whole thing can be intimidating



Dont you think that's a bit patronising? Cooking basic meals is not rocket science.


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## ebay sex moomin (Oct 26, 2008)

not having being shown something doesn't make you thick.

I heard about a study of some university students about a decade ago, many of whom didn't know how to boil an egg. The most common question was apparently, 'how do you get the egg out of the pan?'


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## Santino (Oct 27, 2008)

Fuchs66 said:


> Dont you think that's a bit patronising? Cooking basic meals is not rocket science.


Please see page 1, 2, 3 and most of the rest of the thread for this discussion.


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## _angel_ (Oct 27, 2008)

xenon said:


> Exactly. Saw one episode. These peple were depressingly thick. Fuck all to do with money or class. They're just ignorant.
> 
> Jamey Oliver's a bit annoying but I like his enthusiasm and down to earth approach.



Not being shown how to do something isn't necessarily 'thick'. My bf had to show his brother in law how to make a cup of tea when he was 26 because he lived with his mum and she had done everything for him! I couldn't believe it, but there you go.

Personally I'm questioning exactly how much of a non cook some of these people really were. If someone asks you if you can cook (and that person is a celebrity chef !!) you're likely to feel inadequate and reply that you can't.... without realising maybe you have made a few things without realising it.


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## xenon (Oct 27, 2008)

likesfish said:


> not thick just never been shown if you've never been shown how to cook the whole thing can be intimidating




How can an adult have gone through life never having seen anyone cook anything.  Even if they weren't raised on home cooking. What about school? TV? Friend's houses? What about simple curiosity?

 These morons were eating kebabs every night FFS. Even beans on toast wouldn't be beyond someone now and again. Half the stuff I learned to cook was as a student. It was that, starvation or skirvy.


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## _angel_ (Oct 27, 2008)

xenon said:


> How can an adult have gone through life never having seen anyone cook anything.  Even if they weren't raised on home cooking. What about school? TV? Friend's houses? What about simple curiosity?
> 
> These morons were eating kebabs every night FFS. Even beans on toast wouldn't be beyond someone now and again. Half the stuff I learned to cook was as a student. It was that, starvation or skirvy.



These *morons* at least were trying to learn though...


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## xenon (Oct 27, 2008)

Teaboy said:


> Don't Pesto and Pizza originate from the same country?
> 
> Anyway it's cobblers, some people will love it others won't, their class is irrelevant.  The thing about Pesto though is it is actually quite expensive and, as has been said is not that healthy.




And it's rank.


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## xenon (Oct 27, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> These *morons* at least were trying to learn though...




And before prime time TV exposure, they did what?


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## Fruitloop (Oct 27, 2008)

Main thing that struck me is how infrequently you see actual working-class people on the telly, rather than luvvies pretending to be working-class. Cor blimey guv'nor!


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## _angel_ (Oct 27, 2008)

xenon said:


> And before prime time TV exposure, they did what?



I can't understand why people are howling in horror at these 'thickos' for trying to improve something.

I do also suspect that not everyone was quite as incapable as was painted. I think a lot of it has been put on tbh..


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## xenon (Oct 27, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> I can't understand why people are howling in horror at these 'thickos' for trying to improve something.
> 
> I do also suspect that not everyone was quite as incapable as was painted. I think a lot of it has been put on tbh..



I'm not howling with derision. Just strongly disrespect what looks like wilful ignorance and lazyness. It's not that I expect everyone to be able to knock up Michelin level quazene. I'm hardly master sheff myself. But sticking a baked potato in the oven. I mean, even just to see what happens. 

But on your second point. They've obviously chosen pretty extreme examples and editted accordingly. I don't personally know anyone who's quite so culinary challenged.


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## Zachor (Nov 6, 2008)

tarannau said:


> When I went to University I was shocked by just how little many people knew about food. And these were mainly middle class folks with more settled families in the main, their learning taking place with peers at Uni. .



A very good point.  Bad attitudes to food are not only to be found amongst the poor or working classes and it is patronising to say that all working class families feed their children shite. 

However, it is a huge indictment that for the last 30 odd years we have had a socialist-style inclusive education system that has presided over not an improvement in the average persons life chances or choices but instead has created a slackjawed, bovine population who consider opening a tin to be intellectually challenging.


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## Santino (Nov 6, 2008)

Zachor said:


> However, it is a huge indictment that for the last 30 odd years we have had a socialist-style inclusive education system that has presided over not an improvement in the average persons life chances or choices but instead has created a slackjawed, bovine population who consider opening a tin to be intellectually challenging.


A huge indictment... of what?


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## Zachor (Nov 6, 2008)

Alex B said:


> A huge indictment... of what?



The piss poor quality of the one size fits all socialist education system.  Should have worded it better.


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## tarannau (Nov 6, 2008)

Zachor said:


> However, it is a huge indictment that for the last 30 odd years we have had a socialist-style inclusive education system that has presided over not an improvement in the average persons life chances or choices but instead has created a slackjawed, bovine population who consider opening a tin to be intellectually challenging.


What the bleeding hell are you warbling on about? My gawd, you've turned into a right unashamed tory, with your nonsensical rubbish about 'socialist' style education. it's like a Tory gag reflex and new Godwin's law.

Doesn't hold water in the slightest fwiw. I’d strongly suggest that this country’s never had much of a food-based culture, nor were most people educated well about food at school at any point. What’s perhaps more important is a lack of parenting skills,  plus a lack of family time -  aspects you could more easily level at the fact we have the longest working hours in Europe, communities and high streets decimated/ food tastes distorted by big chains and agribusinesses. Add to that a paralyzing lack of real money for those unemployed, often portrayed as chavvy wasteful slackers, which discourages learning. Sneering shit about ‘bovine population’ is part of the problem, as is your tendency to characterize anything that doesn’t come from Tory HQ or Boris’s gob as ‘socialist’. You numpty.


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## Santino (Nov 6, 2008)

Zachor said:


> The piss poor quality of the one size fits all socialist education system.  Should have worded it better.


Are you arguing that the current system is worse than a previous system that provided a better standard of education for everyone? If so, which system?


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## tarannau (Nov 6, 2008)

And how does it relate to this cooking/Jamie Oliver based discussion then Zachor?

Would selective schools and differentiated education made all the difference then? Were grammar schools once the powerhouse behind this country's culinary skills. Was Eton once the place where folks ate and learnt the finest cooking traditions

You see my problem here Zachor? And why I think you're being a reflex Tory gobshite with a love of reciting the same old tired, meaningless slurs?


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## Zachor (Nov 6, 2008)

tarannau said:


> And how does it relate to this cooking/Jamie Oliver based discussion then Zachor?



Its relevant in so far as the education system has contributed to a considerable degree to the current societal disasters we are seeing afflicting us.  An abandonment of old style Home Economics in favour of 'design your own pizza box' style CDT is one symptom of what is wrong.   These 'can't feel a spud' types went through schools and were parented by people who went through the state school system so a large proportion of the blame for this shocking and depressing situation must be laid at the door of the education system when from the late 60's onwards was more concerned with levelling down rather than raising people up.  


tarannau said:


> Would selective schools and differentiated education made all the difference then? Were grammar schools once the powerhouse behind this country's culinary skills. Was Eton once the place where folks ate and learnt the finest cooking traditions



No ALL schools should teach people how to cook from basic materials.  


tarannau said:


> You see my problem here Zachor? And why I think you're being a reflex Tory gobshite with a love of reciting the same old tired, meaningless slurs?



I used to be a socialist gobshite but I grew up and got better


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## tarannau (Nov 6, 2008)

What a load of duplicitous, irrelevant rubbish. I went to a grammar school fwiw – being one of the ‘lucky’ out of borough kids who travelled out from Lambeth to Surrey every day in search of better education. At no point in time did my school, or any of its similar types nearby, offer ‘home economics’ or any type of cooking training  - I suspect the girls’ equivalent offered some very basic classes, but ‘housewife’ training was basic and never going to last in a more equitable age. 

Besides the standards of cooking were always low in schools – there wasn’t some halcyon age you can hark back to, nor something to be ‘levelled down’ in a school context. Even in the periods around the world wars, many housewives couldn’t cook well or boast varied diets – there was as much a need for the original ‘ministry of food’ and educational/nutritional training as there is now. I note you didn’t you comment on the assertion that the ‘work hard’ long hours culture and the unseemly haste to get into bed with big agribusiness  and supermarket chains has had a far more marked effect on food habits in this country than a few hours of cooking at school ever will

You haven’t grown up or got better. You just spout a load of thought-free reactionary crap these days and try and blather when someone confronts you on it. It’s sad actually.


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## _angel_ (Nov 6, 2008)

'Socialist style education system' when has the UK ever had anything close to 'socialism'?????

You're bonkers.


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