# Black Lives Matter Protesters block the M4 to Heathrow



## killer b (Aug 5, 2016)

Black Lives Matter. Good work.


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## killer b (Aug 5, 2016)

Also Nottingham and Birmingham apparently


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

Black Lives Matter protest sparks Heathrow traffic chaos


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## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2016)

odd reportage from the beeb here:
Black Lives Matter movement 'needed in UK' - BBC News


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

❤❤❤


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

Police tactics...screen them off.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

Really wish I was in London right now taking part in this.


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## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

I have to confess I don't fully understand BLM in the UK. They're a long way from the coherence & direct relevance (wrong word? the link to ongoing news & events) of the US version - are they taken seriously?


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)




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## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I have to confess I don't fully understand BLM in the UK. They're a long way from the coherence & direct relevance (wrong word? the link to ongoing news & events) of the US version - are they taken seriously?



You think we should wait until it gets that bad then? It isn't bad enough already? Also, solidarity isn't restricted by distance.

Taken seriously by whom? I think people are done asking for 'permission', that's the point.


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## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I have to confess I don't fully understand BLM in the UK. They're a long way from the coherence & direct relevance (wrong word? the link to ongoing news & events) of the US version - are they taken seriously?


By who? 

They've just done what the anti-war movement took months talking about. You block the movement of commodities and the circulation of capital and you're going to get taken seriously. I hope people are prepared.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2016)

commenters from the group seem to be parents/family of people killed by OB 

thats why the beeb coverage is weird 'purporting to be' is the puzzler.


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## Maharani (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I have to confess I don't fully understand BLM in the UK. They're a long way from the coherence & direct relevance (wrong word? the link to ongoing news & events) of the US version - are they taken seriously?


I thought it was pretty obvious with the 5th anniversary of Mark Duggan's murder yesterday too...I think the BLM cause is to show solidarity more than anything as Rutita1 says.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

Maharani said:


> I thought it was pretty obvious with the 5th anniversary of Mark Duggan's murder yesterday too...I think the BLM cause is to show solidarity *more than *anything as Rutita1 says.



I'd say _as well as _myself. But apart from that, yes_._


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## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2016)

are police killings of black people not a problem here then? "taken seriously?"!

good on them.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I have to confess I don't fully understand BLM in the UK. They're a long way from the coherence & direct relevance (wrong word? the link to ongoing news & events) of the US version - are they taken seriously?



How many of my siblings have to die in custody before we are *allowed* to call time on this shit. Your post demonstrate exactly why we need this here. Do some research before you open your mouth.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I have to confess I don't fully understand BLM in the UK. They're a long way from the coherence & direct relevance (wrong word? the link to ongoing news & events) of the US version - are they taken seriously?


it can be explained to you but it can't be understood for you


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Maharani said:


> I thought it was pretty obvious with the 5th anniversary of Mark Duggan's murder yesterday too...I think the BLM cause is to show solidarity more than anything as Rutita1 says.


my understanding of it was that blm aims to raise awareness, show solidarity and to shame 'the authorities', as well as to remember people like mark duggan and sean rigg.


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## sihhi (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I have to confess I don't fully understand BLM in the UK. They're a long way from the coherence & direct relevance (wrong word? the link to ongoing news & events) of the US version - are they taken seriously?



There is lots of distinct aims and demands within BLM chapters in the USA about how to reduce police misconduct, probably less coherence than the much smaller UK group.


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## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You think we should wait until it gets that bad then? It isn't bad enough already?


No of course not. I don't want to demean the cause or cast doubt on the fundamental necessity.

But in the US it inherently forms a very different part of the national narrative, formed around a long string of high profile appalling incidents and founded in severe, transparent institutionalised inequity. In terms of the public narrative, it's simple, powerful stuff: a protest against a pattern of recent events, demanding something must be done. And there are very tangible things _to _be done.

Here, the domestic situation is fortunately not quite the same depth of emergency, which is not to claim it isn't grave, so I just wonder what the public reception is. The solidarity element makes perfect sense, but it's not clear to me if it is primarily that, or a domestic agenda, or both equally. Would BLM UK (in any name) exist without its US version, and if not, what does that mean?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> No of course not. I don't want to demean the cause or cast doubt on the fundamental necessity.
> 
> But in the US it inherently forms a very different part of the national narrative, formed around a long string of high profile appalling incidents and founded in severe, transparent institutionalised inequity. In terms of the public narrative, it's simple, powerful stuff: a protest against a pattern of recent events, demanding something must be done. And there are very tangible things _to _be done.
> 
> Here, the domestic situation is fortunately not quite the same depth of emergency, which is not to claim it isn't grave, so I just wonder what the public reception is. The solidarity element makes perfect sense, but it's not clear to me if it is primarily that, or a domestic agenda, or both equally. Would BLM UK exist without its US version, and if not, what does that mean?


i'm sorry, you seem to have missed the deaths of the likes of mark duggan, sean rigg, smiley culture, roger sylvester, joy gardner, leon patterson and many others. are these deaths not appalling enough for you?


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## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm sorry, you seem to have missed the deaths of the likes of mark duggan, sean rigg, smiley culture, roger sylvester, joy gardner, leon patterson and many others. are these deaths not appalling enough for you?


Or Jimmy Mubenga  - smothered to death at Heathrow Airport.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm sorry, you seem to have missed the deaths of the likes of mark duggan, sean rigg, smiley culture, roger sylvester, joy gardner, leon patterson and many others. are these deaths not appalling enough for you?




And Mzee Mohammed in the last couple of weeks. Seni Louis. Sarah Reed. The list goes on and on.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

Don't you know these names mauvais?


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## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Or Jimmy Mubenga  - smothered to death at Heathrow Airport.


g4s again. murderous parasites


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

further to my previous post, cynthia jarrett and cherry groce


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## skyscraper101 (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


>




Since when was "organising a protest" a criminal offence?


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## weepiper (Aug 5, 2016)

And Sheku Bayoh.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


>



please take screen grabs of tweets as they can so easily get deleted or take ages to load.


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## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm sorry, you seem to have missed the deaths of the likes of mark duggan, sean rigg, smiley culture, roger sylvester, joy gardner, leon patterson and many others. are these deaths not appalling enough for you?


I haven't missed the majority of these, and none of this query is based on a lack of injustice. Let's not get into comparison of incidents.

But what proportion of the British public on their way to Heathrow do you think are familiar with your case list?

In blunt terms, if you blockade an airport/motorway etc, then you bring disruption to the general public, and you force them to assess your complaint and its favourability. It's an opportunity, in terms of support for direct action, to both garner and lose broad sympathy. If you lose sympathy then you potentially bring some harm to the credibility of the wider cause behind it. The balance of that is dominated by the strength of the narrative. The US narrative is unmissable and ferocious.

That has the answer of 'so make them aware', which makes perfect sense, if the protest is designed to raise awareness rather than relying on/assuming it. It's not clear to me that that's going to be achieved.

I realise this is straight from the treelover school of armchair protest critique, so I'll give it up.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I haven't missed the majority of these, and none of this query is based on a lack of injustice. Let's not get into comparison of incidents.


no indeed. let's ignore your previous post where you said lots of appalling things had happened in america with the clear implication that they haven't here.


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## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no indeed. let's ignore your previous post where you said lots of appalling things had happened in america with the clear implication that they haven't here.


Perhaps you can quote that piece. The implication is your invention.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Perhaps you can quote that piece. The implication is your invention.


i have quoted it 
and your comparison of the us and uk leaves to no other conclusion than that you think the situation here better than the united states.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Since when was "organising a protest" a criminal offence?


likely be the location. You are supposed to tell OB if you are gathering anyway, so they say. Obvs if they had been told in advance theres no way the protest would have been allowed to go ahead so...


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> likely be the location. You are supposed to tell OB if you are gathering anyway, so they say. Obvs if they had been told in advance theres no way the protest would have been allowed to go ahead so...


i do not believe there is any onus on anyone to alert the police to a forthcoming assembly while i believe there to be such a requirement for a procession, unless it is a spontaneous thing.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais doesn't think brown women are worth replying to


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

looks like awareness is being raised through the reporting of the demonstration


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Nottingham city centre gridlocked since 8am. Protesters still being cut out of lock ons.

E2a: Police officers on the scene: many. Black police officers: nil.


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## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i have quoted it


As you're being lazy, what you apparently refer to is this:


> But in the US it inherently forms a very different part of the national narrative, formed around a long string of high profile appalling incidents and founded in severe, transparent institutionalised inequity


The US vs UK differentiators in this sentence were intended to be 'high profile' and 'severe, transparent'. The UK without doubt has both appalling incidents and institutionalised inequity. It's also much more subtle and disguised, far more so than somewhere where the media is constantly full - on a weekly or daily basis - of inoccent, unarmed black men being shot by the police for literally no reason. Again how high profile, nationally, are the cases or pattern of cases you refer to?


poptyping said:


> mauvais doesn't think brown women are worth replying to


Yes, that's it. Because I'm a racist. Glad we've solved that mystery.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

Who said that? Great deflection.


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## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Since when was "organising a protest" a criminal offence?



I saw that. wtf? !


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> As you're being lazy, what you apparently refer to is this:


i am not being lazy. you are being stupid. i quoted your post in its sorry entirety on page 1.


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## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Who said that? Great deflection.


If you're going to run with racism - that I choose to ignore you on your colour/gender, neither of which are obvious - then at least go the course eh?


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## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2016)

surely one of the reasons to hold a BLM protest is BECAUSE it's more sutble and not many people are aware of it?

I don't think many people outside the US black community would have been aware of what goes on in Ferguson etc if protesters hadn't made a fuss over it !


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Police tactics...screen them off.



I'm exceedingly suspicious of any policy that lets coppers screen off protesters from the public eye. Way too many possibilities for piggie skullduggery.


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## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2016)

there have been a few videos of black men being treated badly by cops over the last week such as that guy in the spit hood. And that teenager that was killed a few weeks ago in police custody, Mzee Mohammed. Anyway, is it only worth protesting about if people who aren't affected can see videos of it?


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I have to confess I don't fully understand BLM in the UK. They're a long way from the coherence & direct relevance (wrong word? the link to ongoing news & events) of the US version - are they taken seriously?



These protests mark the fifth anniversary of the 'lawful killing' of Mark Duggan, if that goes any way towards answering your question.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm exceedingly suspicious of any policy that lets coppers screen off protesters from the public eye. Way too many possibilities for piggie skullduggery.



No witnesses or legal observers were allowed behind the screen despite repeated requests from the protestors. This is a standard tactic for lock-ons mind you.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I have to confess I don't fully understand BLM in the UK. They're a long way from the coherence & direct relevance (wrong word? the link to ongoing news & events) of the US version - are they taken seriously?



The core is still the same - the asymmetry in police-caused deaths between BaME and white people. There may not be coppers gunning people down as often, or beating people to death in custody as often over here, as there. That doesn't mean that there isn't still a massive problem in terms both of the individual racism of some members of the criminal justice system, and the institutional racism of the system - and all those who function within it - itself.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2016)

low moment of the duggan cover up/press collusion was the way they used cropped photo- angry scowling young back man. Zoom it out and its him at his daughters funeral, face clenched with grief. Cheap dicks. I believe most of the paps ran with that photo. Its not just what goes on, thats bad enough but the state and 4th estate collusionwith the judiacry in making it all go away and never sending people down, well the first time you see it its shock. By the third bare anger. Every filthy trick you can think of. Spycops in the family support groups a la stephen lawrence.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You think we should wait until it gets that bad then? It isn't bad enough already? Also, solidarity isn't restricted by distance.
> 
> Taken seriously by whom? I think people are done asking for 'permission', that's the point.



Damn right. "The system" has showed, more than 20 years after the MacPherson Report, and 35 years after the Scarman Report, that it's unwilling to deal with the institutional racism prevalent throughout the criminal justice system. People showing solidarity and marking out political ground on which to challenge Establishment behaviour, _sans_ permission, isn't just right and proper, it's *good* too.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> low moment of the duggan cover up/press collusion was the way they used cropped photo- angry scowling young back man. Zoom it out and its him at his daughters funeral, face clenched with grief. Cheap dicks. I believe most of the paps ran with that photo. Its not just what goes on, thats bad enough but the state and 4th estate collusionwith the judiacry in making it all go away and never sending people down, well the first time you see it its shock. By the third bare anger. Every filthy trick you can think of. Spycops in the family support groups a la stephen lawrence.


doesn't matter if there are spycops or not, after the revelations about stephen lawrence there will be great scope for suspicion anyway, causing internal ructions.


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## bi0boy (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> If you're going to run with racism - that I choose to ignore you on your colour/gender, neither of which are obvious - then at least go the course eh?



You people in that minority I'm not part of, you ought not to protest because I don't think you have it as bad as elsewhere.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> commenters from the group seem to be parents/family of people killed by OB
> 
> thats why the beeb coverage is weird 'purporting to be' is the puzzler.



It's always good - for selected values of "good" - to know that the BBC can consistently reach new depths of cuntbaggery in their shilling for power.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

weepiper said:


> And Sheku Bayoh.



Christopher Alder, Shiji Lapite and Brian Douglas.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> If you're going to run with racism - that I choose to ignore you on your colour/gender, neither of which are obvious - then at least go the course eh?



Stop deflecting. But yeah it means you don't have to engage. Well done.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> low moment of the duggan cover up/press collusion was the way they used cropped photo- angry scowling young back man. Zoom it out and its him at his daughters funeral, face clenched with grief. Cheap dicks. I believe most of the paps ran with that photo. Its not just what goes on, thats bad enough but the state and 4th estate collusionwith the judiacry in making it all go away and never sending people down, well the first time you see it its shock. By the third bare anger. Every filthy trick you can think of. Spycops in the family support groups a la stephen lawrence.




What we were shown:







The true picture:


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## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 90352
> looks like awareness is being raised through the reporting of the demonstration


Yes. And so, in part, the UKBLM statement will be the answer to at least one of the questions I had, if it's successfully propagated. Within said Telegraph story, you can also see public confusion about its relevance, not necessarily a negative in itself if it gets answered.



frogwoman said:


> surely one of the reasons to hold a BLM protest is BECAUSE it's more sutble and not many people are aware of it?
> 
> I don't think many people outside the US black community would have been aware of what goes on in Ferguson etc if protesters hadn't made a fuss over it !


Very true. But comes back to the earlier point, at least in terms of public perception (if you think such a thing matters anyway) about raising awareness vs. assuming it. As above, time will probably tell which of those the domestic movement is closer to.



bi0boy said:


> You people in that minority I'm not part of, you ought not to protest because I don't think you have it as bad as elsewhere.


There's certainly a well-worn meme in there. But it's not about discouraging protest, but interest in what the public reception & effect on the discourse will be. My initial impression was negative but now, based on the above, I'm not so sure.


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## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2016)

tbh I think black people have every right to protest about police brutality over here. it's not as bad as in the US or France currently but in atmosphere where there's increased pressure for police to be armed with guns and people are being arrested for organising protests ffs, it's going to get closer and closer to US standards of policing. I fully support this protest and tbh people complaining need to get over it.

let's also not forget that 70 year old Slovakian guy the transit passenger at heathrow who was not black but police detained him at heathrow in handcuffs and he ended up having a heart attack and dying. border patrols and cops in this country get away with murder literally and there's very little accountability.

the fact its not as bad as in the US is neither here nor there really, few places in western Europe are. Its like saying that there's no need to do something about serial killer who's killed 5 people when there's a much worse serial killer out there who's killed 30. err what.


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## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Stop deflecting. But yeah it means you don't have to engage. Well done.


Engage with what? Before you announced that I was ignoring you because you're black, which you now don't seem to want to stick with, you were asking if I'd heard of a set of incidents, as did Pickmans and others before you. And the answer is, as it was when I responded to PM in post 30, mostly yes - though actually not a recent couple you mention. Does it matter that I haven't heard of them? Maybe - have the general public? Do they form a significant part of the narrative, which is what I was questioning after all? Will they, after today's protest? Answer to that: possibly yes - remains to be seen.


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## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2016)

"this road is really dangerous something needs to be done about it, 10 people were killed by cars going down it last year"

"oh really well I dunno what you're complaining about, there's a road in America where 100 people were killed last year"


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> As you're being lazy, what you apparently refer to is this:
> The US vs UK differentiators in this sentence were intended to be 'high profile' and 'severe, transparent'. The UK without doubt has both appalling incidents and institutionalised inequity. It's also much more subtle and disguised, far more so than somewhere where the media is constantly full - on a weekly or daily basis - of inoccent, unarmed black men being shot by the police for literally no reason. Again how high profile, nationally, are the cases or pattern of cases you refer to?



It's not really "more subtle and disguised", it's merely of a lesser frequency, and therefore more easily passed off by the ruling classes as not a reflection of an institutionalised racism.



> Yes, that's it. Because I'm a racist. Glad we've solved that mystery.



No, it's because you're a plum, you plum.


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## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2016)

"ok why haven't the police caught this serial killer yet, this is the fourth murder in two weeks"

"you don't know how good you have it, in America they still haven't caught the zodiac killer after 35 years plus loads of other murderers they haven't caught, stop complaining"


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## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not really "more subtle and disguised", it's merely of a lesser frequency, and therefore more easily passed off by the ruling classes as not a reflection of an institutionalised racism.


No, it is more subtle, although frankly anything is more subtle than the tragic results of US policing. Do we have police officers shooting people and then literally saying, when asked why, "I don't know"? Do we have the equivalent of Zimmerman, who was willing to defend and even celebrate his actions? (I know he's not police). Do we have YouTube videos of people being shot dead without provocation? The answer may sometimes be yes, but for the most part, instead we have incidents that are frequently muddied - in perception or presentation - by victims' histories, the policing equivalent of fog-of-war, or the circumstances in which the incident occurred. Or whose systemic failings take twenty or more years to properly come out.


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## Doctor Carrot (Aug 5, 2016)

I don't think berating someone trying to understand a protest is particularly helpful. Seems mauvais was questioning just how effective such a protest would be and how sympathetic the wider public would be in the context of this country. It's a question of tactics. The tactics seem effective as it's being reported in mass media outlets. 

Personally I didn't know most of the names of the deaths listed previously, which is why protests like this are vital.


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## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2016)

I'm a bit worried as to how it's come about that the person has been arrested for it. I'd like more info on that.


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## Doctor Carrot (Aug 5, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> I'm a bit worried as to how it's come about that the person has been arrested for it. I'd like more info on that.


Isn't that standard though? I thought protests had to be pre confirmed with police beforehand? This wasn't and it blocks a major infrastructure network so I'm not surprised arrests have been made.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 5, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Isn't that standard though? I thought protests had to be pre confirmed with police beforehand?



Only within 1km of the HoC.


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## Doctor Carrot (Aug 5, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Only within 1km of the HoC.


Only there? I thought marches and the like had to be pre arranged anywhere? I'm sure obstructing a highway is something a person can be arrested for.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Engage with what? Before you announced that I was ignoring you because you're black, which you now don't seem to want to stick with, you were asking if I'd heard of a set of incidents, as did Pickmans and others before you. And the answer is, as it was when I responded to PM in post 30, mostly yes - though actually not a recent couple you mention. Does it matter that I haven't heard of them? Maybe - have the general public? Do they form a significant part of the narrative, which is what I was questioning after all? Will they, after today's protest? Answer to that: possibly yes - remains to be seen.



I'm not black and I never said I was. 

Yeah it does matter that you and others haven't heard of our siblings who have died in custody. That's part of the point of the protest. You've come in here saying that we shouldn't be protesting bc it's not as bad as America and you don't even have the facts about what's happening over here. Also UK BLM is about more than deaths in custody. Its a challenge a range of broader issues around institutional racism and they ways that black people in the UK are targeted and disadvantaged by a system thats rigged against them. This movement is absolutely relevant in the UK. Anyone questioning that needs to have a word with themselves and also take the time to actually read up on BLM UK!!


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 5, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Only there? I thought marches and the like had to be pre arranged anywhere? I'm sure obstructing a highway is something a person can be arrested for.



Non-spontaneous marches need to be notified, this wasn't a march, just a protest blocking a road.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I'm sure obstructing a highway is something a person can be arrested for.


s.137 highways act 1980. yes, people can be arrested for it: but protest a legitimate use of the highway and numerous cases brought by the cps have been dismissed on that basis.


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## Doctor Carrot (Aug 5, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Non-spontaneous marches need to be notified, this wasn't a march, just a protest blocking a road.


Fair enough but I think the obstruction of a highway is surely what any arrests will be for.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Non-spontaneous marches need to be notified, this wasn't a march, just a protest blocking a road.


an assembly as opposed to a procession.


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## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

poptyping said:


> I'm not black and I never said I was


Then what was your post about?


poptyping said:


> You've come in here saying that we shouldn't be protesting bc it's not as bad as America


Absolutely false. I've been asking - not asserting - what the public perception & support would be, in the face of a less well evident narrative.


poptyping said:


> and you don't even have the facts about what's happening over here. Also UK BLM is about more than deaths in custody. Its a challenge a range of broader issues around institutional racism and they ways that black people in the UK are targeted and disadvantaged by a system thats rigged against them. This movement is absolutely relevant in the UK. Anyone questioning that needs to have a word with themselves and also take the time to actually read up on BLM UK!!


Or, you know, you could ask about it on the internet.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> No, it is more subtle, although frankly anything is more subtle than the tragic results of US policing. Do we have police officers shooting people and then literally saying, when asked why, "I don't know"?



Yes. Off the top of my head, Joy Gardner.


Do we have the equivalent of Zimmerman, who was willing to defend and even celebrate his actions? (I know he's not police).[/quote]

No, purely because our firearms laws prevent *anyone* from owning a handgun. Not because of differences.



> Do we have YouTube videos of people being shot dead without provocation? The answer may sometimes be yes, but for the most part, instead we have incidents that are frequently muddied - in perception or presentation - by victims' histories, the policing equivalent of fog-of-war, or the circumstances in which the incident occurred. Or whose systemic failings take twenty or more years to properly come out.



What we have is incidents that are muddied through design. Our police engage in a "nod and wink" game with the rest of the criminal justice system which sees them walk away from murdering people. The only differences between here and the US, is that legislatively coppers in US states are even better protected from the consequences of their murderous impulses, *and* have the tools (guns) and the imperative (legislation allowing them to react to an "imminent threat" to their life, with them deciding what constitutes the imminent threat) to carry out murder.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Absolutely false. I've been asking - not asserting - what the public perception & support would be, in the face of a less well evident narrative.


this would be the less well evident narrative entirely absent from urban75 over the past 15 years.

except it has been extensively discussed here numerous times


----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> this would be the less well evident narrative entirely absent from urban75 over the past 15 years.
> 
> except it hasn't been


Disturbing news for you here: Urban isn't representative of the general public.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Could the thread title be changed to give some hint about why these protests are happening?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais err I never said I was black??



poptyping said:


> mauvais doesn't think brown women are worth replying to



And if you are referring to my use of we when talking about protesting for BLM. Its not only black people who protest and support this movement  FFS you've basically just outted yourself as saying you think white ppl don't care about black life


----------



## killer b (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Could the thread title be changed to give some hint about why these protests are happening?


dunnit


----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

poptyping said:


> mauvais err I never said I was black??
> 
> 
> 
> And if you are referring to my use of we when talking about protesting for BLM. Its not only black people who protest and support this movement  FFS you've basically just outted yourself as saying you think white ppl don't care about black life


What are you on about? Which brown woman was not worth replying to? As for the rest... for fuck's sake.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2016)

Guardian clearly does not feel the protests are worthy of a 'live' feed. Telegraph does.


----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, purely because our firearms laws prevent *anyone* from owning a handgun. Not because of differences.
> 
> What we have is incidents that are muddied through design. Our police engage in a "nod and wink" game with the rest of the criminal justice system which sees them walk away from murdering people. The only differences between here and the US, is that legislatively coppers in US states are even better protected from the consequences of their murderous impulses, *and* have the tools (guns) and the imperative (legislation allowing them to react to an "imminent threat" to their life, with them deciding what constitutes the imminent threat) to carry out murder.


I don't strongly disagree on either count - although on the former, I do think there is a very different level of outright societal racism. However, both constitute the system. Both produce their method of policing and the outcomes of policing, which is what manifests as subtle or not - not the underlying characteristics or behaviours which may be very similar.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> What are you on about? Which brown woman was not worth replying to? As for the rest... for fuck's sake.



You presumed I was black because I said we when referring to people who protest for blm. Your assumption highlights that you think white and brown ppl are not also a part of this movement. That stinks.

You also questioned the relevance of these demonstrations. 

That tells me all I need to know.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2016)

I do think something like George Zimmerman's case would be unlikely to happen here however there are plenty of fucking egregious things the police, screws and racist white people have done to black people over the years with little or no comeback. Does it have to get as bad as George Zimmerman auctioning off his gun or having a show on tv before people protest about it.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 5, 2016)

poptyping said:


> You presumed I was black because I said we when referring to people who protest for blm. Your assumption highlights that you think white and brown ppl are not also a part of this movement. That stinks.
> 
> You also questioned the relevance of these demonstrations.
> 
> That tells me all I need to know.



I have to admit I presumed you were black because you called yourself a brown woman.

Or did I misunderstand?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

> What are you on about? Which brown woman was not worth replying to? As for the rest... for fuck's sake.




Not every person with brown skin identifies as Black when describing their ethnic origins.  People with brown skin are from many different places.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Disturbing news for you here: Urban isn't representative of the general public.



That probably depends on the demographics of where you live. Round here, and in most of the bits of southwest London I've lived in, Urban and real life experience pretty much chime. Then again, I've never lived anywhere that hasn't been wildly multicultural, so...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I have to admit I presumed you were black because you called yourself a brown woman.
> 
> Or did I misunderstand?



See my post above.

Also, if she identified as Black, she would have said 'Black woman'.

There was no need for you to presume anything.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

What have they actually blocked, the spur road or the M4 itself?


----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

poptyping said:


> You presumed I was black because I said we when referring to people who protest for blm. Your assumption highlights that you think white and brown ppl are not also a part of this movement. That stinks.
> 
> You also questioned the relevance of these demonstrations.
> 
> That tells me all I need to know.


No, I assumed you were black - and yes, my mistake of phrase - because you apparently complained about me not replying to brown women when I didn't respond to your post, which was apparently to call me a racist. Now, however, I don't know who you are or what you were complaining about.

And I didn't question the overall relevance of BLM UK, for fuck's sake, as I've pointed out (and others have for me) several times now.

If you want to write some posts for me where I actually do all the things you're claiming, then I'll put them up for you, and you can argue with that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

poptyping said:


> You presumed I was black because I said we when referring to people who protest for blm. Your assumption highlights that you think white and brown ppl are not also a part of this movement. That stinks.
> 
> You also questioned the relevance of these demonstrations.
> 
> That tells me all I need to know.



To be scrupulously fair, some people do make off-the-cuff assumptions that pressure groups and movements with ethnicity-specific names will contain only members of that ethnicity. I remember doing the old "pat on the head, there there" to someone years ago, who assumed that Southall Black Sisters was for Afro-Caribbean and African women only. 

The truth is that anti-racism's strength has always been the diversity of anti-racists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Disturbing news for you here: Urban isn't representative of the general public.


Perhaps you should read what you wrote again and then - God willing - you might just understand what you said. This may be different to what you intended to say.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> No, I assumed you were black - and yes, my mistake of phrase - because you apparently complained about me not replying to brown women when I didn't respond to your post, which was apparently to call me a racist. Now, however, I don't know who you are or what you were complaining about.
> 
> And I didn't question the overall relevance of BLM UK, for fuck's sake, as I've pointed out (and others have for me) several times now.
> 
> If you want to write some posts for me where I actually do all the things you're claiming, then I'll put them up for you, and you can argue with that.


Don't bother with her, she's a fucking idiot. Whack her on ignore and reply to the others.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> What have they actually blocked, the spur road or the M4 itself?



Looks like the Bath Road roundabout


----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Perhaps you should read what you wrote again and then - God willing - you might just understand what you said. This may be different to what you intended to say.


Perhaps you can spell it out as I can't fathom what you're on about. I talked about public perception. You said the narrative has been clearly expressed on here. The two are not the same thing, unless you think the average M4 commuter or Heathrow user or radio listener etc is an Urbanite.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> No, I assumed you were black - and yes, my mistake of phrase - because you apparently complained about me not replying to brown women when I didn't respond to your post, which was apparently to call me a racist. Now, however, I don't know who you are or what you were complaining about.
> 
> And I didn't question the overall relevance of BLM UK, for fuck's sake, as I've pointed out (and others have for me) several times now.
> 
> If you want to write some posts for me where I actually do all the things you're claiming, then I'll put them up for you, and you can argue with that.



Errr then why didn't you quote that post instead of another one 

Why do you have to presume anything. I told you I was brown. That's so weird.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 5, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Errr then why didn't you quote that post instead of another one
> 
> Why do you have to presume anything. I told you I was brown. That's so weird.



Are you just arguing for the sake of it?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Looks like the Bath Road roundabout


Just T3 then? 

It'd still cause a massive headache though!


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Are you just arguing for the sake of it?



It seems like you are.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 5, 2016)

poptyping said:


> It seems like you are.



Sorry?

Where have I argued?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Don't bother with me, I'm a fucking idiot. Whack me on ignore and reply to the others.



FFY


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Just T3 then?
> 
> It'd still cause a massive headache though!



Yeah the spur is shut so everyone is going via T5 which has totally fucked up the M25:


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> To be scrupulously fair, some people do make off-the-cuff assumptions that pressure groups and movements with ethnicity-specific names will contain only members of that ethnicity. I remember doing the old "pat on the head, there there" to someone years ago, who assumed that Southall Black Sisters was for Afro-Caribbean and African women only.
> 
> The truth is that anti-racism's strength has always been the diversity of anti-racists.



Yeah I can see that with Southall Black Sisters for def. Its a common misconception I think.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Sorry?
> 
> Where have I argued?


 Save your sanity and stick her on ignore. She a twat!


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Yeah the spur is shut so everyone is going via T5 which has totally fucked up the M25:
> 
> View attachment 90356


It's a fine effort, tbf. As far as bang for your protest buck is concerned, it's very efficient.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 5, 2016)

The woman they had on the BBC explaining the reason for the protest made a rubbish job of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I've been asking - not asserting - what the public perception & support would be, in the face of a less well evident narrative.


over the past 60 years the narrative you call 'less well evident' has been widely reported and indeed commented on in the mass media, from notting hill in the 1950s through brixton and tottenham and st pauls and handsworth in the 1980s to croydon and tottenham in 2011 to smiley culture just the other year and indeed this list is by no means exhaustive. do you think everyone not on urban ignores things like the macpherson report? there is a very evident narrative, not a hidden history as you would have it. i don't know why you're trying to make out the sorry litany of killings of black men by the police is somehow below the radar of auld whitey in this country when it has been reported and reported and reported. go to anyone over the age of 18 - and quite a few under it - and ask them who mark duggan was and i would be surprised if fewer than 80% of them had heard of him. you make a fucking stupid assertion that it's a 'less well evident narrative' to suit some agenda of your own. it's a shit trick: but it's an illusion of your own making. the narrative is very fucking evident.


----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Why do you have to presume anything. I told you I was brown. That's so weird.


No, you never actually did that either. You apparently implied as much when you apparently implied I was a racist, and then danced around it for several pages of thread whilst I asked you what you were on about, as well as making up a bunch of stuff I never said. So if you're now saying you're brown, then presumably, and the presuming is since you won't actually tell me, you _were_ complaining that I didn't reply to you. On the basis of colour. Thanks for clearing that up so quickly.

Well into all that, I then mistakenly wrote black instead of brown, and we got a bit more mileage out of that, didn't we. Well, I'm sorry. I hope you can accept my apologies for that.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 5, 2016)

likesfish said:


> The woman they had on the BBC explaining the reason for the protest made a rubbish job of it.


What with my opinion of the BBC having sunk to an all-time low over recent years it would not surprise me in the slightest to discover that this was deliberate.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> No, you never actually did that either. You apparently implied as much when you apparently implied I was a racist, and then danced around it for several pages of thread whilst I asked you what you were on about, as well as making up a bunch of stuff I never said. So if you're now saying you're brown, then presumably, and the presuming is since you won't actually tell me, you _were_ complaining that I didn't reply to you. On the basis of colour. Thanks for clearing that up so quickly.
> 
> Well into all that, I then mistakenly wrote black instead of brown, and we got a bit more mileage out of that, didn't we. Well, I'm sorry. I hope you can accept my apologies for that.



OK so are you ready to leave this now so we can actually talk about the issues at hand?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

teqniq said:


> What with my opinion of the BBC having sunk to an all-time low over recent years it would not surprise me in the slightest to discover that this was deliberate.


tbh it's no easy thing to go on the radio or television as what might seem very reasonable face to face can become awful when it appears on telly, and it's very easy to be nervous.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Yeah the spur is shut so everyone is going via T5 which has totally fucked up the M25:
> 
> View attachment 90356



From BLM's perspective, it's been a good morning's work.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> From BLM's perspective, it's been a good morning's work.


i imagine quite a few cabbies rubbing their hands with glee as a £40-50 fare becomes £100-200 while sat in traffic.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Thanks for clearing that up so quickly.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh it's no easy thing to go on the radio or television as what might seem very reasonable face to face can become awful when it appears on telly, and it's very easy to be nervous.


Fair point maybe I am being overly paranoid lol.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Sorry?
> 
> Where have I argued?



Why ask her that question anyway if not to provoke?

You too made an unnecessary presumption as pointed out in my last post which quoted you. 

Get off her back.


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 5, 2016)

Netpol has a handy legal briefing on highway obstruction, it suggests there's a tension between "reasonable" protest under the ECHR and the Highways Act 1980 but if they've been arrested the police may well have a case. 

Personally I'm more worried about the literal covering up of police activity around removal of the protesters. If that remains unchallenged as policy I can see it enabling serious malpractice as a method of stymieing camera use.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i imagine quite a few cabbies rubbing their hands with glee as a £40-50 fare becomes £100-200 while sat in traffic.


More likely they're all pissed off because everyone's taking the train and tube.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> over the past 60 years the narrative you call 'less well evident' has been widely reported and indeed commented on in the mass media, from notting hill in the 1950s through brixton and tottenham and st pauls and handsworth in the 1980s to croydon and tottenham in 2011 to smiley culture just the other year and indeed this list is by no means exhaustive. do you think everyone not on urban ignores things like the macpherson report? there is a very evident narrative, not a hidden history as you would have it. i don't know why you're trying to make out the sorry litany of killings of black men by the police is somehow below the radar of auld whitey in this country when it has been reported and reported and reported. go to anyone over the age of 18 - and quite a few under it - and ask them who mark duggan was and i would be surprised if fewer than 80% of them had heard of him. you make a fucking stupid assertion that it's a 'less well evident narrative' to suit some agenda of your own. it's a shit trick: but it's an illusion of your own making. the narrative is very fucking evident.



And let's please be absolutely clear about this, this isn't just a narrative of deaths, it's a narrative of life-changing injuries; a narrative of the deliberate perversion of justice; a narrative of violence against the working class too, and for little more reason than official apathy about doing anything regarding institutional racism.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> From BLM's perspective, it's been a good morning's work.



 It depends on has it got their point across or just pissed people off and been dismissed as just jumping on the US bandwagon?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 5, 2016)

Looks like its all over at Heathrow


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Why ask her that question anyway if not to provoke?
> 
> You too made an unnecessary presumption as pointed out in my last post which quoted you.
> 
> Get off her back.



Innit. Thanks Rutita1


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> And let's please be absolutely clear about this, this isn't just a narrative of deaths, it's a narrative of life-changing injuries; a narrative of the deliberate perversion of justice; a narrative of violence against the working class too, and for little more reason than official apathy about doing anything regarding institutional racism.


yeh i hadn't got on to the fit-ups and framings or the beatings and torture


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> It depends on has it got their point across or just pissed people off and been dismissed as just jumping on the US bandwagon?


jesus will you stop with the binaries already


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Why ask her that question anyway if not to provoke?
> 
> You too made an unnecessary presumption as pointed out in my last post which quoted you.
> 
> Get off her back.



Piss off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Piss off.


eloquent as ever: and just as charming.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Piss off.



No.  You thought you'd wade in for a dig even though you fucked up. Fuck you.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> It depends on has it got their point across or just pissed people off and been dismissed as just jumping on the US bandwagon?


I don't think its likely to be seen as bandwaggoning. Was interested to see the 'no justice no peace' slogan in american photos, thats supposed to have originated in the wake of Mark Duggans murder. Solidarity is reciprocal and that mirrors in language, nomenclature and....the semiology of the movements iyswim

e2a just googled and the chants been around since the 70s. Bad example then but point stands I think


----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> over the past 60 years the narrative you call 'less well evident' has been widely reported and indeed commented on in the mass media, from notting hill in the 1950s through brixton and tottenham and st pauls and handsworth in the 1980s to croydon and tottenham in 2011 to smiley culture just the other year and indeed this list is by no means exhaustive. do you think everyone not on urban ignores things like the macpherson report? there is a very evident narrative, not a hidden history as you would have it. i don't know why you're trying to make out the sorry litany of killings of black men by the police is somehow below the radar of auld whitey in this country when it has been reported and reported and reported. go to anyone over the age of 18 - and quite a few under it - and ask them who mark duggan was and i would be surprised if fewer than 80% of them had heard of him. you make a fucking stupid assertion that it's a 'less well evident narrative' to suit some agenda of your own. it's a shit trick: but it's an illusion of your own making. the narrative is very fucking evident.


So, thank you for articulating that (honestly). I don't agree with what I think is either projection or optimism. I doubt anything like 80% have any idea, for a start, not anything to do with blindness to this specifically, but to current affairs in general. That's by the by. Duggan was high profile, unusual amongst the earlier list of cases named. Even there, I suspect, but will never be able to evidence, that the mud thrown in that incident has stuck, the majority of people nationally have missed the investigation (or failure thereof) and those that know anything of the case still believe in large part the story that was initially portrayed. Therefore I think even amongst the people even vaguely familiar, there will be a strong 'yes but' theme, rather than an unconditional acknowledgement of systemic problems.

All of which - back to the core question/argument - is great motivation for increasing awareness, but not so good if you rely on awareness for baseline support.

I could be wrong, I may have a pretty different perspective, etc, but that is how it appears to me.

There's another question lurking in there as to whether the awareness of the permanently politically ignorant matters at all, and I don't know the answer.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Rob Ray said:


> Netpol has a handy legal briefing on highway obstruction, it suggests there's a tension between "reasonable" protest under the ECHR and the Highways Act 1980 but if they've been arrested the police may well have a case.



I doubt there's much of a defence here tbh. I'm fairly sure the people who have ben arrested took part in this knowing that they'd be arrested and convicted. IIRC the maximum penalty for blocking the highway is a 1000 pound fine.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> Was interested to see the 'no justice no peace' slogan in american photos, thats supposed to have originated in the wake of Mark Duggans murder.



It's much, much older than that.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> No.  You thought you'd wade in for a dig even though you fucked up. Fuck you.



Why did she mention her colour/gender?  What was the point of it?  She was just having an unnecessary dig at mauvais  .


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Rob Ray said:


> Netpol has a handy legal briefing on highway obstruction, it suggests there's a tension between "reasonable" protest under the ECHR and the Highways Act 1980 but if they've been arrested the police may well have a case.


no, it means they wanted to clear the road because of a) traffic pressure and b) pressure from politicians or their superiors. a) definitely and imo b) almost certainly. being arrested by the police doesn't mean anything evidentially.

e2a: they could have been nicked to prevent a breach of the peace, and that's no crime at all.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's much, much older than that.


I know, I just checked, bad example


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Looks like its all over at Heathrow




Everyone at the Notts protest has been lifted as well.


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I doubt there's much of a defence here tbh. I'm fairly sure the people who have been arrested took part in this knowing that they'd be arrested and convicted. IIRC the maximum penalty for blocking the highway is a 1000 pound fine.



Yep £1,000 maximum but £200 is normal for a first-time offence. Though it's political so maybe higher end, exemplary sentencing and all that?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> From BLM's perspective, it's been a good morning's work.



Full marks for organisation and execution.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't think its likely to be seen as bandwaggoning. Was interested to see the 'no justice no peace' slogan in american photos, thats supposed to have originated in the wake of Mark Duggans murder. Solidarity is reciprocal and that mirrors in language, nomenclature and....the semiology of the movements iyswim
> 
> e2a just googled and the chants been around since the 70s. Bad example then but point stands I think


That has been around for as long as i've been active - and came from the US. One that may have gone the other way is _no justice (just us)_ which i heard on a ruthless rap assassins song in early 91 that later became a slogan of the la riots later in the year. I douby the RRA were the first though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Rob Ray said:


> Yep £1,000 maximum but £200 is normal for a first-time offence. Though it's political so likely higher?


let's see if they get convicted first. you seem to assume the worst, well before anything legal has happened - that bit about 'if the police nicked them they must have a case' above and 'i expect they'll get higher fines' here, when you don't even know if they'll be charged nor what defence they'd run.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

Imagine this happening every single day in 2002-3, dispersed across the country, cops never knowing which tactical spot would be hit next - which one was a diversion and which was real. Top work today.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Why did she mention her colour/gender?  What was the point of it?  She was just having an unnecessary dig at mauvais  .



Why are you asking a question if you have already made up your mind? As I said fuck you, you've no interest whatsoever anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Imagine this happening every single day in 2002-3, dispersed across the country, cops never knowing which tactical spot would be hit next - which one was a diversion and which was real. Top work today.


i remember walking round and round the old street roundabout in london to block it - with a couple of hundred other people - in protest at the iraq war in '03, pity more people weren't doing it


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> So, thank you for articulating that (honestly). I don't agree with what I think is either projection or optimism. I doubt anything like 80% have any idea, for a start, not anything to do with blindness to this specifically, but to current affairs in general. That's by the by. Duggan was high profile, unusual amongst the earlier list of cases named. Even there, I suspect, but will never be able to evidence, that the mud thrown in that incident has stuck, the majority of people nationally have missed the investigation (or failure thereof) and those that know anything of the case still believe in large part the story that was initially portrayed. Therefore I think even amongst the people even vaguely familiar, there will be a strong 'yes but' theme, rather than an unconditional acknowledgement of systemic problems.



I think this is correct.  Look at the ignorant comments on Sky's coverage of the demonstration:




Roads Blocked In Black Lives Matter Protests
Photographs on social media show demonstrators lying on a road close to Heathrow Airport and on tram tracks in Nottingham.
news.sky.com

702 Comments
207 Shares





Marilyn Wyles Get the army or armed police to sort them,oh just for the record WHITE lives matter too like the poor lady who was stabbed and died!!!

"}">Like · Reply · 574 · 1 hr
93 Replies · 3 mins



Matt DeGirolamo Hardy Because we have such a huge problem with it in this country....

You can't medicate stupid.

"}">Like · Reply · 608 · 1 hr
View previous replies



Cameron Harambe Lievesley Jian Lee Whites are killed at twice the rates of blacks by police in America despite blacks committing 50% of violent crimes. 3% of both are killed unarmed so there is no hatred against blacks in the police. Don't let the media fool you.

"}">Like · Reply · 43 · 1 hr
View more replies



Michelle Jones "Black Lives Matter" All Lives Matter!! But if you are laid out in the road,, blocking my way of getting to the airport and chances are I could miss my flight,,, 
I won't care what colour you are,, I will drive over you!!!!
See I don't care about colour! We all bleed the same!!!

"}">Like · Reply · 243 · 1 hr
20 Replies · 4 mins



Peter Barber I totally support the black live matter concept, but this is a terrible way to gain support for their movement. Disrupting the lives of normal people - most of whom probably agree with them already. And especially around Heathrow meaning that people will miss holidays and other potentially important trips.

"}">Like · Reply · 124 · 1 hr
32 Replies · 6 mins



Neil Bradley If it was a protest saying white lives matter, they would be accused of being racist. So in that context this should be seen as racist as well.

"}">Like · Reply · 164 · 1 hr
View previous replies



Allan Massey Kyle Chan, and when was the last time that happened?
Such a stupid comment....See more

"}">Like · Reply · 39 · 1 hr


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> let's see if they get convicted first. you seem to assume the worst, well before anything legal has happened - that bit about 'if the police nicked them they must have a case' above and 'i expect they'll get higher fines' here, when you don't even know if they'll be charged nor what defence they'd run.



I didn't say the police _must_ have anything, I said if people were nicked on the grounds of obstruction they seem pretty scuppered under the 1980 Act. And the use of exemplary fines is pretty common for political lawbreaking, I'm raising the possibility not stating a definite outcome. Sure it's pessimistic, I'm not an optimist when it comes to how courts treat protesters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I think this is correct.  Look at the ignorant comments on Sky's coverage of the demonstration:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


for the nth time don't read the fucking comments on news stories as they are all bonkers.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> for the nth time don't read the fucking comments on news stories as they are all bonkers.



But it shows the "general public" as they really are.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Rob Ray said:


> if they've been arrested the police may well have a case.


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


>



Yeah "may well" have a case, if they have been arrested, while specifically citing the Highways Act. Who pissed in your soup this morning?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Rob Ray said:


> I didn't say the police _must_ have anything, I said if people were nicked on the grounds of obstruction they seem pretty scuppered under the 1980 Act. And the use of exemplary fines is pretty common for political lawbreaking, I'm raising the possibility not stating a definite outcome. Sure it's pessimistic, I'm not an optimist when it comes to how courts treat protesters.


are you sure the use of exemplary fines 'pretty common for political lawbreaking'? i am by no means certain you're right. what happens now depends on a) if they give a comment interview; b) if they plead guilty; c) if they run a political defence, as opposed to saying 'blocking of highway for protest a legitimate use of highway as per case x'; d) if they are found guilty what mitigation they produce. hanging them before they've been charged imo does some of the state's work for it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Rob Ray said:


> Yeah "may well" have a case, if they have been arrested, while specifically citing the Highways Act. Who pissed in your soup this morning?


no, it means nothing of the sort. it gives NO indication of whether they have a case. don't come out with wank and i won't have a pop.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> But it shows the "general public" as they really are.


no it doesn't.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Why did she mention her colour/gender?  What was the point of it?  She was just having an unnecessary dig at mauvais  .



Because I was one of three black and brown women posting on the thread that mauvais wasn't responding to. Actually no they did partially respond to Rutita1.

As Rutita1 said you made your comment to provoke. What a shitty thing to do.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Imagine this happening every single day in 2002-3, dispersed across the country, cops never knowing which tactical spot would be hit next - which one was a diversion and which was real. Top work today.



Unfortunately, the anti-war protests were directed (I won't say "led" as it would be too complimentary) by fuckwits who haven't veered from marching A-B for decades.

During the student protests I got rounded on by Swappie types for suggesting that diverse spontaneous demos were the way to go. Apparently that would be "tactically stupid".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> But it shows the "general public" as they really are.



Not really. Like Urban, it shows a small cross-section of gobby people as they really are.

Unlike Urban, comments pages do generally show that cross-section of gobby people in a poor light.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

So much coverage and reach. There's a real buzz around today's demos. This will hopefully boost numbers for the event in Altab Ali Park later.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Lots of public events around the country this evening. They're for everyone so find one and go.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Unfortunately, the anti-war protests were directed (I won't say "led" as it would be too complimentary) by fuckwits who haven't veered from marching A-B for decades.
> 
> During the student protests I got rounded on by Swappie types for suggesting that diverse spontaneous demos were the way to go. Apparently that would be "tactically stupid".


as opposed to having a strategy whose tactics were dictated by the need to sell more papers to recruit more members to sell more papers _ad infinitum_


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> as opposed to having a strategy whose tactics were dictated by the need to sell more papers to recruit more members to sell more papers _ad infinitum_



Well, quite!


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> In blunt terms, if you blockade an airport/motorway etc, then you bring disruption to the general public, and you force them to assess your complaint and its favourability. It's an opportunity, in terms of support for direct action, to both garner and lose broad sympathy. If you lose sympathy then you potentially bring some harm to the credibility of the wider cause behind it.


Its really important this I think....
There are subtleties around direct action, and picking a good target is important. It would appear to many that the people this hurts immediately the most are regular people trying to have a break from the grind whose plane tickets are non-exchangable and who cant afford to book alternative flights. Theres no doubt there will be negative fall out from this - especially in regard the Heathrow end of the action.

NVDA can be contentious and more important than getting headlines is bringing the public along with you.  Its a balancing act - the bigger the disruption the bigger the headlines, but also the more likely it is to alienate people if done wrong.


ViolentPanda said:


> From BLM's perspective, it's been a good morning's work.


And based on the above, maybe or maybe not - there is a danger that actions become counterproductive


Pickman's model said:


> for the nth time don't read the fucking comments on news stories as they are all bonkers.


well yes, often true, but it is important to keep public support on your side on this issue for it to add up to anything...there'll be a lot of people out there who may be anti-racists but who relate to the stress of making a flight and will take the side of holidaymakers over this.

Im not calling it either way on this - theres definitely a lot of good this action might achieve, particularly in more broadly activating others - I'm just bringing up the point that there are subtleties and considerations in NVDA politics beyond Righteous Cause = All Action Is Positive, and its worth being conscious of them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> And based on the above, maybe or maybe not - there is a danger that actions become counterproductive



Of course, which is why you vary your tactics, tailoring them to the situation you wish to bring about. This isn't complex, it's basic "keep them on their toes" shit that the Swappies and their various offshoots always ignored (as Pickman's model says, in favour of paper sales).


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)




----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Because I was one of three black and brown women posting on the thread that mauvais wasn't responding to. Actually no they did partially respond to Rutita1


Disappointingly, I've failed to keep sufficiently detailed files on most Urban posters to know who is who, much less their ethnicity and such. So, pleased as I am to be repeatedly called out as a racist, it would help if next time you could fill in a quick questionnaire before engaging so that I can be said to have explicitly ignored you on personal properties rather than, say, the point having already been addressed.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course, which is why you vary your tactics, tailoring them to the situation you wish to bring about. This isn't complex, it's basic "keep them on their toes" shit that the Swappies and their various offshoots always ignored (as Pickman's model says, in favour of paper sales).


i think targets should be clear and aid in the message you are getting across - so if your taking action against the military go to military sites - if this is action is particularly about Police brutality, then make the police the focus of it. That message will be diluted in the minds of some who will see the disruption of people trying to go on holiday as incongruous .


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> i think targets should be clear and aid in the message you are getting across - so if your taking action against the military go to military sites - if this is action is particularly about Police brutality, then make the police the focus of it. That message will be diluted in the minds of some who will see the disruption of people trying to go on holiday as incongruous .


No, make the stopping of the functioning of society the target - the old stuff that has done sweet FA is precisely going outside the_ correct target_ and protesting. There are tactically key places everywhere if you look carefully enough.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Disappointingly, I've failed to keep sufficiently detailed files on most Urban posters to know who is who, much less their ethnicity and such. So, pleased as I am to be repeatedly called out as a racist, it would help if next time you could fill in a quick questionnaire before engaging so that I can be said to have explicitly ignored you on personal properties rather than, say, the point having already been addressed.


strange, you've been here 11 years and yet you don't seem to know much about your fellow posters.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Its really important this I think....
> There are subtleties around direct action, and picking a good target is important. It would appear to many that the people this hurts immediately the most are regular people trying to have a break from the grind whose plane tickets are non-exchangable and who cant afford to book alternative flights. Theres no doubt there will be negative fall out from this - especially in regard the Heathrow end of the action.


Indeed. I'm completely behind the cause but it's a terribly selected target. Apart from potentially ruining loads of people's holidays, blocking emergency access to one of the busiest airports in the world is really silly.

They should've fucked-over police stations.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Indeed. I'm completely behind the cause but it's a terribly selected target. Apart from potentially ruing loads of peoples holidays, blocking emergency access to one of the busiest airports in the world is really silly.


then why don't you get involved with them and give them the benefit of your tactical nous?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> i think targets should be clear and aid in the message you are getting across - so if your taking action against the military go to military sites - if this is action is particularly about Police brutality, then make the police the focus of it. That message will be diluted in the minds of some who will see the disruption of people trying to go on holiday as incongruous .



As an opening salvo in a broader assault though, it's a good marker, in terms of getting BLM front and centre in the public imagination.

And frankly, they could have done something utterly inoffensive and some elements of the Establishment would still damn them.


----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> strange, you've been here 11 years and yet you don't seem to know much about your fellow posters.


It's a pretty lacklustre effort isn't it. It's almost like I don't commit my entire life to here, arguing with everyone come what may. My performance review will be the death of me.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Indeed. I'm completely behind the cause but it's a terribly selected target. Apart from potentially ruining loads of people's holidays, blocking emergency access to one of the busiest airports in the world is really silly.
> 
> They should've fucked-over police stations.



Fucked over? Like how? 

They've gone for maximum coverage and got it.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> strange, you've been here 11 years and yet you don't seem to know much about your fellow posters.



I've been here a while but I have no idea what colour most posters are.  Why should I?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Apart from potentially ruining loads of people's holidays, blocking emergency access to one of the busiest airports in the world is really silly.



You know airports have onsite emergency services yes?

The Nottingham protest was at a spot chosen specifically because it wasn't on a route used by emergency vehicles.


----------



## inva (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Fucked over? Like how?
> 
> They've gone for maximum coverage and got it.


plus you could make similar arguments against protesting at police stations. what about emergencies, obstructing police responding to serious crimes, etc. If you want to criticise there will always be a better target or a better tactic.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Fucked over? Like how?


I dunno, I'm sure they could get creative. Blocking access to stations? Stopping vehicles getting in and out?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

The Novara video above explains better than I could why this kind of disruption is justified.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

inva said:


> plus you could make similar arguments against protesting at police stations. what about emergencies, obstructing police responding to serious crimes, etc. If you want to criticise there will always be a better target or a better tactic.





Spymaster said:


> I dunno, I'm sure they could get creative. Blocking access to stations? Stopping vehicles getting in and out?


See what inva said.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> I dunno, I'm sure they could get creative. Blocking access to stations? Stopping vehicles getting in and out?



This could lead to ridiculously over the top responses by the police, followed by ridiculously over the top charges in the courts. Terrorism is probably what they'd call it.

When _you're_ willingly marching yourself into a jail cell and the world of legal hurt that follows, you can pick the fucking target.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> No, make the stopping of the functioning of society the target - the old stuff that has don sweet FA is precisely going outside the_ correct target_ and protesting. There are tactically key places everywhere if you look carefully enough.


There is a case for that if your campaign is to hold the function of society to ransom unless a specific demand is met - see for example fuel blockades. There its clear cut - reduce the price of fuel or we'll stop the system from functioning. Your move...

The UK BLM campaign seems to me at present to be much more nebulous - if there was one clear achievable key demand put forward then maybe that tactic could work, but at present it seems to be an awareness raising campaign rather than one with a specific demand.

In an awareness raising campaign public support is particularly crucial, I would suggest.


ViolentPanda said:


> As an opening salvo in a broader assault though, it's a good marker, in terms of getting BLM front and centre in the public imagination.
> 
> And frankly, they could have done something utterly inoffensive and some elements of the Establishment would still damn them.



Some elements yes, but these people can't be helped. Potential allies need to be won though...*

*Ive just used the word ally for the first time


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> It's a pretty lacklustre effort isn't it. It's almost like I don't commit my entire life to here, arguing with everyone come what may. My performance review will be the death of me.


have you been assuming everyone here is white and male? your performance on this thread suggests to me you do.


----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> have you been assuming everyone here is white and male? your performance on this thread suggests to me you do.


Yes. That's what I imagine a Brixton-centric forum to be like.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

More than one poster of whom I expected far better has properly shat the bed today.

Other posters have dilligently maintained their usual low standards.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I've been here a while but I have no idea what colour most posters are.  Why should I?


now and again on threads where it's relevant people let slip little snippets about themselves: and i would expect interested posters to bear those things in mind so they don't make an arse of themselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> More than one poster of whom I expected far better has properly shat the bed today.


name name


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Yes. That's what I imagine a Brixton-centric forum to be like.


 What? The Brixton forum makes up a very small part of Urban. Most of us joined for reasons other than that small part, and most of us rarely, if ever post in that small part.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> name name



They know who they are.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Yes. That's what I imagine a Brixton-centric forum to be like.


such a pity


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> They know who they are.


yeh but i don't


----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> What? The Brixton forum makes up a very small part of Urban.


Not the Brixton subforum, the entire thing.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Not the Brixton subforum, the entire thing.


Urban as a whole isn't Brixton centric though


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but i don't



Well you're reading the same thread as me, you figure it out.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> .... i would expect _interested_ posters to bear those things in mind so they don't make an arse of themselves.


The emphasised bit is important!


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> now and again on threads where it's relevant people let slip little snippets about themselves: and i would expect interested posters to bear those things in mind so they don't make an arse of themselves.



Not all of us spend our entire lives on here.


----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> ascending to the foothills of the lowest level of wit i see.





Pickman's model said:


> such a pity


Any more forthcoming output from the ever-revolving PM wheel of fortune?

Talking of projection, it was who you asserted that the public majority are as well-versed in news & politics as you/here, but you couldn't be bothered to discuss _that _any further when raised, so who's doing what now?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2016)

remember: lindsay oil refinery. The merest threat of a petrol hauliers strike a few yrs later. Absolute meltdown. Hitting key targets like this is the point imo. If you were going to organise a march, on a sunday, with police escort and so on then you'd have done that. But this is clearly going for maximum visibility.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

The A to B march has long since been completely discredited in the eyes of anyone who pays any kind of attention.

And asking the police for permission to protest about, amongst other things, police racism and brutality is too nauseating to even consider.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Disappointingly, I've failed to keep sufficiently detailed files on most Urban posters to know who is who, much less their ethnicity and such. So, pleased as I am to be repeatedly called out as a racist, it would help if next time you could fill in a quick questionnaire before engaging so that I can be said to have explicitly ignored you on personal properties rather than, say, the point having already been addressed.



You called yourself a racist to deflect from the points that were being made. We've already covered this. Also fuck off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Talking of projection, it was who you asserted that the public majority are as well-versed in news & politics as you/here, but you couldn't be bothered to discuss _that _any further when raised, so who's doing what now?


you're lying, as i have not said that.

next.


----------



## mauvais (Aug 5, 2016)

poptyping said:


> You called yourself a racist to deflect from the points that were being made. We've already covered this. Also fuck off.


_You _called me a racist, you fucking idiot, when you said I was choosing whose posts to respond to based on their colour (that I didn't even know). Several times. As before, if you're going to do that, and not retract it, at least stick with it.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)




----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Not all of us spend our entire lives on here.


in fact none of us spend our entire lives on here. but some of us manage to recall things about other posters. i don't spend my entire time at work but i somehow remember how to perform my tasks. is your memory so fragile and possessed of such an ephemeral quality that goldfish-like every day is a new introduction to urban for you?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> in fact none of us spend our entire lives on here. but some of us manage to recall things about other posters. i don't spend my entire time at work but i somehow remember how to perform my tasks. is your memory so fragile and possessed of such an ephemeral quality that goldfish-like every day is a new introduction to urban for you?



Yes.  Yes it is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> More than one poster of whom I expected far better has properly shat the bed today.
> 
> Other posters have dilligently maintained their usual low standards.



I want "He diligently maintained his usual low standards" to be my epitaph.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Yes.  Yes it is.


good, then by tomorrow you will have forgotten all the brickbats hurled at you. they will strike you anew with undiminished force.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 5, 2016)

"All the brickbats"


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

What a bad tempered thread this is. No reason for it either as nobody is _really_ disagreeing on anything substantive!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> What a bad tempered thread this is. No reason for it either as nobody is _really_ disagreeing on anything substantive!


yeh there are a lot of _faux_ disbelievers here for the lols.


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> There is a case for that if your campaign is to hold the function of society to ransom unless a specific demand is met - see for example fuel blockades. There its clear cut - reduce the price of fuel or we'll stop the system from functioning. You're move.
> 
> The UK BLM campaign seems to me at present to be much more nebulous - if there was one clear achievable key demand put forward then maybe that tactic could work, but at present it seems to be an awareness raising campaign rather than one with a specific demand.
> 
> ...



Totally agree with you. I even wonder if this is officially a BLM thing, as much as that exists or would be possible. 

This is going to harm the image of BLM and not just among white people. 

There are plenty of ways to get more publicity if you want to move beyond marches and towards some type of disruption.  Occupy government buildings, block the entrances at BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Sky. Police car parks always have barriers, people could chain themselves to these. Given the fact that the date of the shooting of Mark Duggan is being used protests aimed at police seem more appropriate.

I would question the personal motivation of the people that have done this. I


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> remember: lindsay oil refinery. The merest threat of a petrol hauliers strike a few yrs later. Absolute meltdown. Hitting key targets like this is the point imo. If you were going to organise a march, on a sunday, with police escort and so on then you'd have done that. But this is clearly going for maximum visibility.


As is said above, the hauliers had a key demand that made that tactic appropriate. Also the tragets they chose were transport related - so tallied with the issue they were struggling over.

Creating random meltdown without a specific demand is not necessarily a good tactic that will bring people to your support or achieve much .Its easy enough to get headlines if you're prepared to get arrested - doesnt mean the campaign is being successful.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I would question the personal motivation of the people that have done this. I


Why would you do that?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I would question the personal motivation of the people that have done this. I



Aaaaaaaaand we're off again ......


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I would question the personal motivation of the people that have done this. I



Why?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Police car parks always have barriers, people could chain themselves to these.


yeh? i am not persuaded you've entirely thought this one through.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Why?


because he's a twat.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 90358



If ever there was a group of people I didn't give a fuck about, it's holidaymakers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Totally agree with you. I even wonder if this is officially a BLM thing, as much as that exists or would be possible.
> <snip>
> 
> I would question the personal motivation of the people that have done this. I


ah you think it's a false flag operation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> If ever there was a group of people I didn't give a fuck about, it's holidaymakers.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I would question the personal motivation of the people that have done this.



And I'm sure they're devastated to hear that.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> If ever there was a group of people I didn't give a fuck about, it's holidaymakers.


Yeah, but you're weird.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Yeah, but you're weird.



I grew up in a touristy part of the world. Trust me, everyone on holiday anywhere is a cunt who can fuck off.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I grew up in a touristy part of the world.


Clacton?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I grew up in a touristy part of the world. Trust me, everyone on holiday anywhere is a cunt who can fuck off.


why limit it to people on holiday?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> ah you think it's a false flag operation.


 hah yeah, reading Anju's post again that is what he saying 
er, no


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> why limit it to people on holiday?



Even I have limited supplies of unfocussed rage and hatred.


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Why would you do that?



Because I know people who have been on all the London marches and were not aware of what was happening today.  I don't think anyone who cared about growing BLM into a viable political pressure group would think this was a good idea.  Class War were promoting this and anyone trying to hijack BLM for other political means is out of order.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Because I know people who have been on all the London marches and were not aware of what was happening today.  I don't think anyone who cared about growing BLM into a viable political pressure group would think this was a good idea.



Doing illegal shit becomes a lot harder if you tell everyone about it in advance.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Because I know people who have been on all the London marches and were not aware of what was happening today.  I don't think anyone who cared about growing BLM into a viable political pressure group would think this was a good idea.  Class War were promoting this and anyone trying to hijack BLM for other political means is out of order.


If you are right IM sure there'll be a statement saying "This wasnt done in our name" etc. Its not going to happen.
Activities like this are always kept under wraps because they need the element of surprise. 
Ive seen that a seasoned peace activist i know was involved and this is no false flag bit of sabotage


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Because I know people who have been on all the London marches and were not aware of what was happening today.


yeh they really had the right to know, didn't they 


> I don't think anyone who cared about growing BLM into a viable political pressure group would think this was a good idea.


because them doing something disruptive stops pressure being put on, right 


> Class War were promoting this and anyone trying to hijack BLM for other political means is out of order.


what, you think people are 'trying to hijack blm for other political means'? what means do you mean?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Because I know people who have been on all the London marches and were not aware of what was happening today.  I don't think anyone who cared about growing BLM into a viable political pressure group would think this was a good idea.  Class War were promoting this and anyone trying to hijack BLM for other political means is out of order.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> If you are right IM sure there'll be a statement saying "This wasnt done in our name" etc. Its not going to happen.
> Activities like this are always kept under wraps because they need the element of surprise.
> Ive seen that a seasoned peace activist i know was involved and this is no false flag bit of sabotage


yeh so maybe it WAS an official blm outing Anju


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Because I know people who have been on all the London marches and were not aware of what was happening today.  I don't think anyone who cared about growing BLM into a viable political pressure group would think this was a good idea.  Class War were promoting this and anyone trying to hijack BLM for other political means is out of order.



I'm gonna have to let my mates know that they've hijacked themselves. I bet they'll be furious.


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Doing illegal shit becomes a lot harder if you tell everyone about it in advance.


 
3 days before.

Black Lives Matter more than Boris: Class War supporting #BLM across UK, Friday 5 August - Class War


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> 3 days before.
> 
> Black Lives Matter more than Boris: Class War supporting #BLM across UK, Friday 5 August - Class War



Yes there are public events going on around the country today which were advertised in advance as well as direct actions which weren't. Unless you can find me a flier from last week that says "we're gonna block the Heathrow spur of the M4 at 8am next Friday".


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> 3 days before.
> 
> Black Lives Matter more than Boris: Class War supporting #BLM across UK, Friday 5 August - Class War


and? is this paltry fart the knockout blow which was going to prove your killer point?


----------



## likesfish (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> If ever there was a group of people I didn't give a fuck about, it's holidaymakers.




Which is going to massively backfire if you piss people off for a cause which they have zero influence over.Deaths in custody isnt really something the public can do anything about especially as the 1500 deaths Due to police contact 150 were black which is 10%
 So good news the police kill in direct proption to the ethnic make up of the uk .
  This is includes shootings RTAs and pursuit


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> If you are right IM sure there'll be a statement saying "This wasnt done in our name" etc. Its not going to happen.
> Activities like this are always kept under wraps because they need the element of surprise.
> Ive seen that a seasoned peace activist i know was involved and this is no false flag bit of sabotage



I am not saying it was sabotage. Just that the way it has been approached is wrong and based on a personal preference for the type of protest.  Following the old fashioned far right / far left tactics is not going to lead to developing a powerful organisation. Look at the way BLM has developed itself in the US.  They are on the way to actually having influence.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2016)

That Martin Luther King had it all wrong as well, he should've hired some white people to tell him how to beat segregation.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2016)

likesfish said:


> *Deaths in custody isnt really something the public can do anything about...*


Today suggests otherwise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I am not saying it was sabotage. Just that the way it has been approached is wrong and based on a personal preference for the type of protest.  Following the old fashioned far right / far left tactics is not going to lead to developing a powerful organisation. Look at the way BLM has developed itself in the US.  They are on the way to actually having influence.


on their way, you say, to actually having influence  but not i note iyo having influence yet.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> That Martin Luther King had it all wrong as well, he should've hired some white people to tell him how to beat segregation.



If only he'd had some white people on the internet telling him to ignore any constructive criticism of his campaigns from without.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Today suggests otherwise.



Because so much was achieved today.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 5, 2016)

I'm not to sure why the police let these people lay across the road? They were causing an obstruction weren't they? Why didn't the OB just arrest them and let people go about their business? What am I missing?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> I'm not to sure why the police let these people lay across the road? They were causing an obstruction weren't they? Why didn't the OB just arrest them and let people go about their business? What am I missing?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> I'm not to sure why the police let these people lay across the road? They were causing an obstruction weren't they? Why didn't the OB just arrest them and let people go about their business? What am I missing?


the point.

next.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Because so much was achieved today.


Well, you appear to be spending part of your afternoon engaged with the issue raised by the protest. 
But speculating about the impact(s) or efficacy of the actions chosen today does not detract from my response to likesfish 's clarion call for passive acceptance of deaths in custody.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Today suggests otherwise.



Blm protested made all the media.

Exactly what the public are meant to do to help blm stop deaths in custody isnt exactly clear?
Given police arnt generally going out with a plan to kill people black or otherwise.
	 It appears to be cock up complete lack of clue about mental health and racist attitudes as reguards mh of black people. Fore example only person I know whoses completely recovered from schizophrenia is black and that tends to beg the question why he was diagnosed with that in the first place.?

Getting angry is one thing and calling peoples attention to the fact is all well and good but something needs to happen but what?
BLM US comes up with some practical steps
What does blm uk want to happen?


Given the police are going to be the first responders to people who have a mental health crisis.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Blm protested made all the media.
> 
> Exactly what the public are meant to do to help blm stop deaths in custody isnt exactly clear.
> The police arnt generally going out with a plan to kill people black or otherwise.
> It appears to be cock up complete lack of clue about mental health and racist attitudes as reguards mh of black people only person I know whoses completely recovered from schizophrenia is black and that tends to beg the question why he was diagnosed with that in the first place.?


you're right, no one with mh problems ever gets better and they were either lying about them or misdiagnosed if they do.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> the point.
> 
> next.



But surely half a dozen people laying across a road obstructing people getting to the airport is rather an inconvenience, wouldn't you say? I'm not sure why the police let them do it for as long as they did! Just seems odd.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> I'm not to sure why the police let these people lay across the road? They were causing an obstruction weren't they? Why didn't the OB just arrest them and let people go about their business? What am I missing?


they had their arms locked together didnt they? I havent actually looked at any reporting of this.
You cant easily move people on - it takes a while to cut them free before you can be picked up and moved


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> But surely half a dozen people laying across a road obstructing people getting to the airport is rather an inconvenience, wouldn't you say?


you'd hope so


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> they had their arms locked together didnt they? I havent actually looked at any reporting of this.
> You cant easily move people on - it takes a while to cut them free before you can be picked up and moved



I put a video up that answers all of those questions.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> they had their arms locked together didnt they? I havent actually looked at any reporting of this.
> You cant easily move people on - it takes a while to cut them free before you can be picked up and moved



Oh, I see! I didn't realise they had locked themselves together, seems quite a dangerous thing to do on a motorway!


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> But surely half a dozen people laying across a road obstructing people getting to the airport is rather an inconvenience, wouldn't you say? I'm not sure why the police let them do it for as long as they did! Just seems odd.


yeah look at the pic - their arms are locked and in tubes - its a tricky process to cut people out - takes a few hours


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> But surely half a dozen people laying across a road obstructing people getting to the airport is rather an inconvenience, wouldn't you say? I'm not sure why the police let them do it for as long as they did! Just seems odd.



im sure being arrested for walking along the road whilst black is also an inconvenience tbf.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> But surely half a dozen people laying across a road obstructing people getting to the airport is rather an inconvenience, wouldn't you say? I'm not sure why the police let them do it for as long as they did! Just seems odd.



Their arms were linked together with concrete, the police could not move them.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Exactly what the public are meant to do to help blm stop deaths in custody isnt exactly clear?


Setting aside the fact that you appear intent upon drawing a distinction between BLM and 'the public'...does it matter if that isn't _exactly clear? _You have heard of consciousness-raising?


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 5, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> im sure being arrested for walking along the road whilst black is also an inconvenience tbf.



Well yes, I guess it would be. Did they do that as well?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> I put a video up that answers all of those questions.


ah missed that first time around

this is it


Rutita1 said:


>




arm tubes were concrete filled, it says


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

I can't believe people genuinely think the action today is a step forward. I think it will ultimately turn people against a movement that has a chance of gaining popular support. It is a step towards turning BLM into a fringe group. 

I realise this will offend people who are lifestyle protesters but putting the thrill of the chase above the chance to push for real results by building a group with sufficient popular support is a selfish act.  

To whoever is talking about MLK. He championed peaceful protest and built massive popular support.  At this point BLM in the UK is in no way comprable to the movement he built and does not stand a chance of developing if people perceive their actions as having been planned over a pint in the student bar.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Setting aside the fact that you appear intent upon drawing a distinction between BLM and 'the public'...does it matter if that isn't _exactly clear? _You have heard of consciousness-raising?


propaganda of the deed


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


>



yeah this is the problem - it does allow it to be shown in this way

never mind though, great effort today and cheering to see


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> It is a step towards turning BLM into a fringe group.




because only yesterday blm was so mainstream


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> To whoever is talking about MLK. He championed peaceful protest and built massive popular support.


This Nonviolent Stuff′ll Get You Killed | Duke University Press


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> ah missed that first time around
> 
> this is it
> 
> ...



Protesters scooped onto roller trolleys and moved out of the road to let traffic through also.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> To whoever is talking about MLK. He championed peaceful protest and built massive popular support.  At this point BLM in the UK is in no way comprable to the movement he built and does not stand a chance of developing if people perceive their actions as having been planned over a pint in the student bar.


MLK era is a great test case of the politics of bringing and keeping the wider public on side, against the odds... its true, i agree with that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> To whoever is talking about MLK. He championed peaceful protest and built massive popular support.  At this point BLM in the UK is in no way comprable to the movement he built and does not stand a chance of developing if people perceive their actions as having been planned over a pint in the student bar.


have you really never noticed that all the achievements of people like mlk have been built on the backs of the other people, the people prepared to use physical force and direct action?


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 5, 2016)

[https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=4d6bf2583f81c1a222a8885068f4e995&oe=585527AE


 Most people seem to hate the protest even those who start off with I support blm,but.
certainly got the message out there. 
   What the message seems unclear and what they want done about it seems unclear.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Setting aside the fact that you appear intent upon drawing a distinction between BLM and 'the public'...does it matter if that isn't _exactly clear? _You have heard of consciousness-raising?



It's perhaps worth pointing out that tactics used by the  civil rights movement in the US in the 1960s were often unpopular with the public.

http://www.crmvet.org/docs/60s_crm_public-opinion.pdf



> Gallup Poll (AIPO) [May, 1961]
> Do you approve or disapprove of what the 'Freedom Riders' are doing?
> 22% Approve
> 61% Disapprove
> ...


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Protesters scooped onto roller trolleys and moved out of the road to let traffic through also.



Ah, quite a neat solution! Caring too really, making sure that nobody was hurt.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I can't believe people genuinely think the action today is a step forward. I think it will ultimately turn people against a movement that has a chance of gaining popular support. It is a step towards turning BLM into a fringe group.
> 
> I realise this will offend people who are lifestyle protesters but putting the thrill of the chase above the chance to push for real results by building a group with sufficient popular support is a selfish act.
> 
> To whoever is talking about MLK. He championed peaceful protest and built massive popular support.  At this point BLM in the UK is in no way comprable to the movement he built and does not stand a chance of developing if people perceive their actions as having been planned over a pint in the student bar.


You don't seem to know anything of the disruption that MLK actually organised and participated in. In fact, it just looks like you're using the safe official version of his activity to beat people more in line with his activity over the head. You're a very confused person.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> Ah, quite a neat solution! Caring too really, making sure that nobody was hurt.


Interesting that you should appear again today.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Interesting that you should appear again today.



Do you think so? I was just at a bit of a loose end and saw all the reports on the news about this protest, and thought I would see what all the folks on urban were saying about it!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> thought I would see what all the folks on urban were saying about it!



Because?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> Do you think so? I was just at a bit of a loose end and saw all the reports on the news about this protest, and thought I would see what all the folks on urban were saying about it!


i would have preferred it if you had just stuck to looking.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Because?



Well, I just knew you would all have interesting points of view about it!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> Well, I just knew you would all have interesting points of view about it!


and what made you think we'd want to read your pedestrian posts on the subject?


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i would have preferred it if you had just stuck to looking.



Oh, don't you welcome other peoples contributions then? I was only commenting because it was quite an interesting piece of news!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> Oh, don't you welcome other peoples contributions then? I was only commenting because it was quite an interesting piece of news!


i do welcome contributions which add to the thread: but not bland banalities.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> and what made you think we'd want to read your pedestrian posts on the subject?



Well no, I guess not. Still it wouldn't do for us all to think the same would it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> Well no, I guess not. Still it wouldn't do for us all to think the same would it?


it would do for all of us to think.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i do welcome contributions which add to the thread: but not bland banalities.



So are you the final arbiter of what is bland and banal then? I'm sorry you don't like my contributions, just trying to pass the time I guess.	Sorry!


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> [https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=4d6bf2583f81c1a222a8885068f4e995&oe=585527AE
> 
> 
> Most people seem to hate the protest even those who start off with I support blm,but.
> ...



Novara media being a bit the Thick of It there...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> I'm not to sure why the police let these people lay across the road? They were causing an obstruction weren't they? Why didn't the OB just arrest them and let people go about their business? What am I missing?





Chrispeptide said:


> Oh, I see! I didn't realise they had locked themselves together, seems quite a dangerous thing to do on a motorway!


if you saw someone else post these wouldn't you consider them bland and banal? 

go on, have another go, show you can post something interesting.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> if you saw someone else post these wouldn't you consider them bland and banal?
> 
> go on, have another go, show you can post something interesting.



Why do you have to be so nasty?  Do you think it makes you look clever or something?


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You don't seem to know anything of the disruption that MLK actually organised and participated in. In fact, it just looks like you're using the safe official version of his activity to beat people more in line with his activity over the head. You're a very confused person.



I am just someone who knows that these actions in the UK right now are counterproductive.

It is not long ago that the majority of people here and in the US would not have believed that the police would murder a black man in cold blood.  Thanks to video evidence that thinking is now changing slowly.  The message of BLM, which has been a message some people have been trying to get across for a long time was finally starting to resonate with a much larger group of people. To move forward BLM needs to take action that a broad range of people will support.  

I don't  hang out with the kind of people who are involved in political action but most of my friends were talking about and many involved in the first black lives matter protests. So far the only thing they have commented on today is the use of sheets to cordon off some protesters. 

If you wish to talk about confused then watch the video on this thread where BLM is suddenly being said to be a protest against general racism and border policing.  These people are hijacking a movement that had a specific focus and destroying any chance it had of making a difference.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> if you saw someone else post these wouldn't you consider them bland and banal?
> 
> go on, have another go, show you can post something interesting.



Oh, no. Your alright, I've got to go and feed the cat anyway! I'll look back in again later, before corrie and catch up on the thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Why do you have to be so nasty?


why don't you look up the thread a bit, back to where you swore at rutita1, and think about why you're nasty.





> Do you think it makes you look clever or something?


believe you me if i wanted to be nasty i wouldn't have pissed about and pulled my punches.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Novara media being a bit the Thick of It there...



Yeah ,bit, of a cunts trick there,imho and I'm a horrible person


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> Oh, no. Your alright, I've got to go and feed the cat anyway! I'll look back in again later, before corrie and catch up on the thread.


grand, i look forward to it


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> Yeah ,bit, of a cunts trick there,imho and I'm a horrible person



No, they are actually sympathetic to the protest. They are just being a  bit thick.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I am just someone who knows that these actions in the UK right now are counterproductive.
> 
> It is not long ago that the majority of people here and in the US would not have believed that the police would murder a black man in cold blood.  Thanks to video evidence that thinking is now changing slowly.  The message of BLM, which has been a message some people have been trying to get across for a long time was finally starting to resonate with a much larger group of people. To move forward BLM needs to take action that a broad range of people will support.
> 
> ...


To be integrated into the mistakes of the past and it's essential they are made again.

And you can't make claims about MLK and what he did then just ignore the challenges to those claims.

Don't know why i bothered responding given your record anyway. If people like you aren't moaning then you're not doing the right things ime.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> To be integrated into the mistakes of the past and and make sure they make it's essential they are made again.
> 
> And you can't make claims about MLK and what he did then just ignore the challenges to those claims.
> 
> Don't know why i bothered responding given your record anyway. If people like you aren't moaning then you're not doing the right things ime.


anju's never happier than when he's drivelling away.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

The discussions - esp participant discussions - at stuff tonight and over weekend are what's important now of course. And not being a participant today not much point in my waffling on here. I'l say again though, top work.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

The amount of media coverage three relatively small groups of people have gotten is impressive.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

Pretty sympathetic write up in the graun


----------



## bimble (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> It's perhaps worth pointing out that tactics used by the  civil rights movement in the US in the 1960s were often unpopular with the public.
> 
> http://www.crmvet.org/docs/60s_crm_public-opinion.pdf


Great post. And when the suffragettes blew up blameless post boxes I'm pretty sure the majority of people at the time strongly disapproved & would've said that such actions make no sense would be detrimental to the cause etc.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> No, they are actually sympathetic to the protest. They are just being a  bit thick.


 oh just saw the photo and thought it was someone taking the piss.


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The amount of media coverage three relatively small groups of people have gotten is impressive.



And you think this is a good thing!  Why do you think there has been so much coverage. Noticed anything unusual about police behaviour.

This is a massive PR win for the police.  

Next we are going to have people who fancy a bit of a riot, not black people, causing a bit of trouble and that will be the end of BLM as a viable political force.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> And you think this is a good thing!  Why do you think there has been so much coverage. Noticed anything unusual about police behaviour.
> 
> This is a massive PR win for the police.
> 
> Next we are going to have people who fancy a bit of a riot, not black people, causing a bit of trouble and that will be the end of BLM as a viable political force.


been at the gangs and countergangs have we sir?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Pretty sympathetic write up in the graun


liberal sympathy costs nothing but is as transient as a cloud


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> And you think this is a good thing!  Why do you think there has been so much coverage. Noticed anything unusual about police behaviour.
> 
> This is a massive PR win for the police.
> 
> Next we are going to have people who fancy a bit of a riot, not black people, causing a bit of trouble and that will be the end of BLM as a viable political force.



I don't know if that is true, look at the write up in the graun it is sympathetic, smartly links the action with post-Brexit racism. It doesn't look like the article was written by people who are totally sympathetic to the police and totally unsympathetic to the people taking part in the action.

Not sure I get how this is going to lead to a riot by people who aren't black? Or a riot by people who are black? Or just a, you know, riot?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't know if that is true, look at the write up in the graun it is sympathetic, smartly links the action with post-Brexit racism. It doesn't look like the article was written by people who are sympathetic to the police and unsympathetic to the people taking part in the action.
> 
> Not sure I get how this is going to lead to a riot by people who aren't black?


kitson's counterinsurgency no doubt inspired anju


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 5, 2016)

The whitesplaining ive seen on fb, well answered here, is that people shouldnt complain because they arent being randomly shot dead in large numbers.


----------



## kingfisher (Aug 5, 2016)

I liked the smiley culture campaign united friends and family n that, british, grassroots, -- are they being aided or supplanted by this US SOROS OCCUPY front group hashtag movement - - - I say bollocks (not racist)


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

from the police


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't know if that is true, look at the write up in the graun it is sympathetic, smartly links the action with post-Brexit racism. It doesn't look like the article was written by people who are totally sympathetic to the police and totally unsympathetic to the people taking part in the action.
> 
> Not sure I get how this is going to lead to a riot by people who aren't black? Or a riot by people who are black? Or just a, you know, riot?



Yes it is a pretty  balanced article, though being the Guardian there will probably be something less sympathetic tomorrow, probably working something anti Corbyn in.

Sadly it is what is in the Sun and from other popular media outlets that will be important to public option.

I worry about things turning violent as people here who seem to favour direct action seem to be inspired by this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes it is a pretty  balanced article, though being the Guardian there will probably be something less sympathetic tomorrow, probably working something anti Corbyn in.
> 
> Sadly it is what is in the Sun and from other popular media outlets that will be important to public option.
> 
> I worry about things turning violent as people here who seem to favour direct action seem to be inspired by this.


yes and as we all know direct action means going round killing people


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes it is a pretty  balanced article, though being the Guardian there will probably be something less sympathetic tomorrow, probably working something anti Corbyn in.
> 
> Sadly it is what is in the Sun and from other popular media outlets that will be important to public option.
> 
> I worry about things turning violent as people here who seem to favour direct action seem to be inspired by this.



If people avoided anything that could possibly get them slagged off by the mail or the Sun then I don't think we would do anything.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If people avoided anything that could possibly get them slagged off by the mail or the Sun then I don't think we would do anything.


you'd still get slagged off by the mail or sun


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> *I worry about things turning violent as people here who seem to favour direct action* seem to be inspired by this.


What leads you to think that 'violence' is _more_ likely if people have undertaken direct action like today's peaceful protest?


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> from the police
> View attachment 90367



Nice to. see you finally coming round to my way of thinking. A real PR victory for police and a blow to BLM.

Your problem is that you lack empathy or any real understanding of how normal people think or feel.  You look down upon them from your ideological ivory tower believing you know best.  Fascinating for me as I have never met anyone that is from the internet before. Your strange belief that I should know who you are and what the reputation of you and  your little self congratulatory clique is. 

Look again at the tweets you posted are and rather than interpreting them from your perspective try to think how a mere mortal, I will call them hard copy people for your digital benefit, person might get from them, especially when combined with the wonderfully low numbered low force display of policing they will see on the news tonight


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

re: riots Conditions that caused English riots even worse now, says leading expert


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> What leads you to think that 'violence' is _more_ likely if people have undertaken direct action like today's peaceful protest?



It is an anarchist thing.  Sadly BLM is not the poll tax and cannot be fixed with a minor policy tweek and name change.

I hope that is not the case but when Class War cancel their Boris March to join BLM protests I just envision a load of people who enjoy a good protest getting involved.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Your problem is that you lack empathy or any real understanding of how normal people think or feel.


what, you think normal people are chuffed with killings like harry stanley's or ian tomlinson's or smiley culture's or mark duggan's or cynthia jarrett's? do you really? i think it's not me but you who needs to take a long hard look at themselves.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you'd still get slagged off by the mail or sun


And by the people who consistently say "I agree with the goals but this protest goes too far" about basically anything.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> It is an anarchist thing.  Sadly BLM is not the poll tax and cannot be fixed with a minor policy tweek and name change.
> 
> I hope that is not the case but when Class War cancel their Boris March to join BLM protests I just envision a load of people who enjoy a good protest getting involved.


yeh protest shouldn't ever be enjoyed.


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> what, you think normal people are chuffed with killings like harry stanley's or ian tomlinson's or smiley culture's or mark duggan's or cynthia jarrett's? do you really? i think it's not me but you who needs to take a long hard look at themselves.



Most people couldn't give a toss about those killings.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh protest shouldn't ever be enjoyed.



Protests _are _often quite fun, and are an important part of democracy. There are people who think that they should all be banned outright, funnily enough I find they are also the sort of people who not so deep down think that fun in general should be banned.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Most people couldn't give a toss about those killings.


yeh? and you know this from what? from talking to people?


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh protest shouldn't ever be enjoyed.



You can enjoy it but that should not be the reason for participating.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Protests _are _often quite fun, and are an important part of democracy. There are people who think that they should all be banned outright, funnily enough I find they are also the sort of people who not so deep down think that fun in general should be banned.


very much of the 'if i can't dance it's not my revolution' school of thought


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> You can enjoy it but that should not be the reason for participating.


oh noes  you've laid down the law and that's final


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Most people couldn't give a toss about those killings.



I don't know if that is true but even if it is there were majorities in favour of the Iraq War in both the UK and US in 2003, just because a person feels that way now doesn't mean that they will tomorrow or in ten years from now.


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> It is not long ago that the majority of people here and in the US would not have believed that the police would murder a black man in cold blood.





Anju said:


> Most people couldn't give a toss about those killings.





Anju said:


> I worry about things turning violent as people here who seem to favour direct action seem to be inspired by this.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't know if that is true but even if it is there were majorities in favour of the Iraq War in both the UK and US in 2003, just because a person feels that way now doesn't mean that they will tomorrow or in ten years from now.



Perhaps the point is that those from the 'wider public' who might be interested in looking at the circumstances of each case might decide that, upon deeper consideration, there isn't a case to be answered.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Most people couldn't give a toss about those killings.


Who is this 'most people' that you speak of and can you provide evidence to back this up? I for one give a toss about killings such as these.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 5, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Perhaps the point is that those from the 'wider public' who might be interested in looking at the circumstances of each case might decide that, upon deeper consideration, there isn't a case to be answered.



I don't know the full details of all the cases mentioned above but I think that if a person came to that conclusion over Ian Tomlison then they would be a very nasty piece of work.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Perhaps the point is that those from the 'wider public' who might be interested in looking at the circumstances of each case might decide that, upon deeper consideration, there isn't a case to be answered.


Case to be answered by who? The police? _Perhaps, might, might_. Say something for yourself.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2016)

the fact that people "fall down stairs" at police stations has become almost a joke over the years.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't know the full details of all the cases mentioned above but I think that if a person came to that conclusion over Ian Tomlison then they are a very nasty piece of work.



I would agree, but each case has to be considered separately.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Who is this 'most people' that you speak of and can you provide evidence to back this up? I for one give a toss about killings such as these.



To be fair to Anju I don't believe he was referring to people on here. I read him to mean generally/the public.


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't know if that is true but even if it is there were majorities in favour of the Iraq War in both the UK and US in 2003, just because a person feels that way now doesn't mean that they will tomorrow or in ten years from now.



From seeing online comments and the tone of a lot of reporting I get the feeling that people think the police were just doing their job.

I was really optimistic that BLM were going to take a more measured approach to try and make some real changes. Keep up a media profile, make sure people see and hear evidence of police abuse.  The police watch that is being done in the US is great. We should be doing that here, promoting the use of in car cameras as well. My friends seem to have a never ending supply of videos showing some of the things that are going on but they are mostly US incidents.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I would agree, but each case has to be considered separately.


We got a proper legal expert here.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> From seeing online comments and the tone of a lot of reporting I get the feeling that people think the police were just doing their job.
> 
> I was really optimistic that BLM were going to take a more measured approach to try and make some real changes. Keep up a media profile, make sure people see and hear evidence of police abuse.  The police watch that is being done in the US is great. We should be doing that here, promoting the use of in car cameras as well. My friends seem to have a never ending supply of videos showing some of the things that are going on but they are mostly US incidents.


How has this been blocked because of todays actions?


----------



## teqniq (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> To be far to Anju I don't believe he was referring to people on here. I read him to mean generally/the public.


I thought so too but I will qualify that by saying again: how does he know? I certainly couldn't say what the general mood of people in the UK would be over contentious police killings.


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> To be far to Anju I don't believe he was referring to people on here. I read him to mean generally/the public.



Yes, just from seeing online comments and the tone of media reports. Plus until last week I worked with a load of non urban type people and any discussion of these issues was normally pro police, pro government, pro the sun newspaper.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

teqniq said:


> I thought so too but I will qualify that by saying again: how does he know? I certainly couldn't say what the general mood of people in the UK would be over contentious police killings.


when ian tomlinson was killed it was in papers for the next month, which is pretty much unheard of for a news story - every day for a month - and a matter of widespread public concern. not to mention jean charles de menezes, smiley culture etc etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes, just from seeing online comments and the tone of media reports. Plus until last week I worked with a load of non urban type people and any discussion of these issues was normally pro police, pro government, pro the sun newspaper.


_None of you lot are real or know real people._


----------



## teqniq (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes, just from seeing online comments and the tone of media reports. Plus until last week I worked with a load of non urban type people and any discussion of these issues was normally pro police, pro government, pro the sun newspaper.



The 'tone of media reports' can be misleading, especially if they are trying to shape the narrative. The photo of Mark Duggan is ample evidence of this.


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes, just from seeing online comments and the tone of media reports. Plus until last week I worked with a load of non urban type people and any discussion of these issues was normally pro police, pro government, pro the sun newspaper.



What happened last week? Did you get promoted or rescued?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes, just from seeing online comments and the tone of media reports. Plus until last week I worked with a load of non urban type people and any discussion of these issues was normally pro police, pro government, pro the sun newspaper.


perhaps you should read a little about how news reports are put together to produce a certain reaction in the readership - newsflash: newspapers and other media outlets are not neutral.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Buckaroo said:


> What happened last week? Did you get promoted or rescued?


discharged


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 5, 2016)

who are "most people" anyway? i suspect that most black people would give a shit about the fact there is a not instubstantial chance they could be randomly arrested and killed by police with little being done at any time.


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

Buckaroo said:


> What happened last week? Did you get promoted or rescued?



Fired, so rescued.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 5, 2016)

teqniq said:


> The 'tone of media reports' can be misleading, especially if they are trying to shape the narrative. The photo of Mark Duggan is ample evidence of this.



What do you think the narrative was?


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> who are "most people" anyway? i suspect that most black people would give a shit about the fact there is a not instubstantial chance they could be randomly arrested and killed by police with little being done at any time.



Most people just means most people.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 5, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> who are "most people" anyway? i suspect that most black people would give a shit about the fact there is a not instubstantial chance they could be randomly arrested and killed by police with little being done at any time.



So 'most black people' think and feel the same way?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Most people just means most people.


and this means you're talking bollocks


----------



## teqniq (Aug 5, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> What do you think the narrative was?


I think that's already been discussed, but in that particular instance and to reiterate: by cropping the photo thus removing the original context (his daughter's funeral) they were able convey his expression as thug-like when in reality it was most probably an expression of grief.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2016)

Real life action attracts these twats - just part of it.


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

teqniq said:


> The 'tone of media reports' can be misleading, especially if they are trying to shape the narrative. The photo of Mark Duggan is ample evidence of this.



I am aware of this but it is also a reflection of public opinion. It is not as if the media only shaped public opinion in response to the shooting of Duggan.

Sadly I have run out of time today so can't reply to anything for now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I am aware of this but it is also a reflection of public opinion. It is not as if the media only shaped public opinion in response to the shooting of Duggan.
> 
> Sadly I have run out of time today so can't reply to anything for now.


saved by the bell i see


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> It is an anarchist thing.  Sadly BLM is not the poll tax and cannot be fixed with a minor policy tweek and name change.
> 
> I hope that is not the case but when Class War cancel their Boris March to join BLM protests I just envision a load of people who enjoy a good protest getting involved.


I asked what led you to believe that violence was more likely as a result of people protesting peacefully. If you can't answer this, why not just say so?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I am aware of this but it is also a reflection of public opinion. It is not as if the media only shaped public opinion in response to the shooting of Duggan.
> 
> Sadly I have run out of time today so can't reply to anything for now.


It's not time you've run out of.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> It's not time you've run out of.


And it's certainly not time he's full of


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I asked what led you to believe that violence was more likely as a result of people protesting peacefully. If you can't answer this, why not just say so?


Because he's a twat


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Because he's a twat



My wife is getting jealous of all the attention you are paying me. I am actually quite flattered that someone as important as yourself is so infatuated but I am not available so suggest you expend your energies on someone that gives a fuck


----------



## emanymton (Aug 5, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> the fact that people "fall down stairs" at police stations has become almost a joke over the years.




How many copers does it take to break an egg?

None it fell down the stairs


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

emanymton said:


> How many copers does it take to break an egg?
> 
> None it fell down the stairs


None, it asked to go and make itself a cup of tea during the arrest, and then reached for a bread knife and stabbed itself in the yolk


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> My wife is getting jealous of all the attention you are paying me. I am actually quite flattered that someone as important as yourself is so infatuated but I am not available so suggest you expend your energies on someone that gives a fuck


Your not giving a fuck evident throughout this thread and your contributions elsewhere. Don't flatter yourself with the notion I am infatuated with you; it is a delusion I hope you cast off swiftly.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

More actions due tonight?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> More actions due tonight?


Yeh, and a march in Tottenham tomorrow


----------



## teqniq (Aug 5, 2016)

ska invita said:


> More actions due tonight?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Indeed. I'm completely behind the cause but it's a terribly selected target. Apart from potentially ruining loads of people's holidays...


Heathrow Airport earlier released a statement saying no-one had missed their flight as a result of the protest.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> What a bad tempered thread this is. No reason for it either as nobody is _really_ disagreeing on anything substantive!


Yeah the bad tempers weren't exactly helped when you rocked up to the thread and called poptyping "a fucking idiot".


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The amount of media coverage three relatively small groups of people have gotten is impressive.


^^^^This.

Excellent work.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Yeah the bad tempers weren't exactly helped when you rocked up to the thread and called poptyping "a fucking idiot".


Get fucked, cockwad.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Get fucked, cockwad.


You could just apologise?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> You could just apologise?


Will I fuck. She's an utter arsehole. 

You can fuck off too.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Will I fuck. She's an utter arsehole.
> 
> You can fuck off too.


Embarrassing.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Will I fuck. She's an utter arsehole.
> 
> You can fuck off too.




She really isn't. 

I am happy to disagree obviously as while you and I have never fallen out and descended to this level you know I have similar feelings about at least one buddy of yours with very good reason. Difference being, I don't post about it in this way nor encourage others to think that way about them. Personal beef is personal afterall.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 5, 2016)

The BLM protest in Altab Ali Park in east London has just been on C4 news - decent report about the whole day's activities.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The BLM protest in Altab Ali Park in east London has just been on C4 news - decent report about the whole day's activities.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 5, 2016)

"Any Questions" has just had a question asking if this indicates a breakdown in the rule of law


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> I am happy to disagree obviously as while you and I have never fallen out and descended to this level you know I have similar feelings about at least one buddy of yours with very good reason. Difference being, I don't post about it in this way nor encourage others to think that way about them. Personal beef is personal afterall.


What she did with mauvais today she's done with me. She plays that race card completely unjustifiably then hides behind lies and obfuscation when she gets pulled on it. I know she's a mate of yours which is fine, I stick up for mates too, but sometimes the criticism is thoroughly deserved.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 5, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "Any Questions" has just had a question asking if this indicates a breakdown in the rule of law




Where have these people been? Asleep?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "Any Questions" has just had a question asking if this indicates a breakdown in the rule of law


The protest, or the reason for it? If the latter, then the answer is yes.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> The protest, or the reason for it? If the latter, then the answer is yes.


Oh, the protest. Certainly the _reason_ is that the "rule of law" isn't, but that irony wasn't explored.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "_*Any* _Questions" has just had a question asking if this indicates a breakdown in the rule of law


They're taking the title of that show very literally i see...


----------



## teqniq (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Where have these people been? Asleep?



Radio 4 innit? I imagine it's the type of Radio 4 listener with a handlebar moustache and a tweed jacket. Possibly a glass of port too.


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Don't know why i bothered responding given your record anyway. If people like you aren't moaning then you're not doing the right things ime.


Yep.

Top action by BLM UK.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 5, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "Any Questions" has just had a question asking if this indicates a breakdown in the rule of law


Yes, absolutely: the police and the state killing and beating people definitely indicates a breakdown in the law.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 5, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> the fact that people "fall down stairs" at police stations has become almost a joke over the years.



That's not a black\brown joke is it though....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Totally agree with you. I even wonder if this is officially a BLM thing, as much as that exists or would be possible.
> 
> This is going to harm the image of BLM and not just among white people.
> 
> ...



Liberal!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Why?



Delusion.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Because so much was achieved today.



That remains to be seen. Unless, of course, you're the sort of fuck-trumpet who believes that an event reveals its entire effect during the event?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> I'm not to sure why the police let these people lay across the road? They were causing an obstruction weren't they? Why didn't the OB just arrest them and let people go about their business? What am I missing?



Do you really want people to answer your question frankly?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 5, 2016)

Ignore the scabs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I can't believe people genuinely think the action today is a step forward. I think it will ultimately turn people against a movement that has a chance of gaining popular support. It is a step towards turning BLM into a fringe group.
> 
> I realise this will offend people who are lifestyle protesters but putting the thrill of the chase above the chance to push for real results by building a group with sufficient popular support is a selfish act.
> 
> To whoever is talking about MLK. He championed peaceful protest and built massive popular support.  At this point BLM in the UK is in no way comprable to the movement he built and does not stand a chance of developing if people perceive their actions as having been planned over a pint in the student bar.



It's interesting that you mention Rev King, while not acknowledging that his brand of "peaceful protest" encompassed similar tactics to what BLM used today.

You also regurgitate the obvious - that BLM isn't comparable to the movement Rev King participated in - as original thought on your part. Of course it isn't comparable. Different times, different places, different laws and different people. Same old murderous racists, though.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Aug 5, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Radio 4 innit? I imagine it's the type of Radio 4 listener with a handlebar moustache and a tweed jacket. Possibly a glass of port too.



I am a Radio 4 listener and I fit that stereotype almost exactly. Well I have a moustache although not a handlebar one. That is more a wartime RAF image. I do have a tweed jacket somewhere but sadly no glass of port.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 5, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I am a Radio 4 listener and I fit that stereotype almost exactly. Well I have a moustache although not a handlebar one. That is more a wartime RAF image. I do have a tweed jacket somewhere but sadly no glass of port.



There is much comfort to be drawn from a glass of good port.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I am just someone who knows that these actions in the UK right now are counterproductive.



And there, in a sentence, is your problem. The arrogance to assert that you *know*, rather than that you believe.



> It is not long ago that the majority of people here and in the US would not have believed that the police would murder a black man in cold blood.  Thanks to video evidence that thinking is now changing slowly.  The message of BLM, which has been a message some people have been trying to get across for a long time was finally starting to resonate with a much larger group of people. To move forward BLM needs to take action that a broad range of people will support.



Popularisation is the death of the original intentions of social movements. It starts with watering down actions to make them more broadly acceptable (generally accompanied by those actions becoming less effective), and generally ends in the hideous farce of a social movement becoming "captured" by the Establishment, and turned into a shield for Establishment misbehaviour.



> I don't  hang out with the kind of people who are involved in political action but most of my friends were talking about and many involved in the first black lives matter protests. So far the only thing they have commented on today is the use of sheets to cordon off some protesters.
> 
> If you wish to talk about confused then watch the video on this thread where BLM is suddenly being said to be a protest against general racism and border policing.  These people are hijacking a movement that had a specific focus and destroying any chance it had of making a difference.



"Most of my friends" isn't in any way synonymous with the broader membership of BLM. Drawing conclusions based on the opinions of a dozen or two dozen people within your social _milieu_ is the height of head-in-the-sand foolishness.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> been at the gangs and countergangs have we sir?



Anyone reading Kitson deserves a thorough old-school thrashing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> from the police
> View attachment 90367



Jesus dog-fucking Christ! The old "we're not killing as many as we used to,therefore we're improving!"  _schtick_!


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Anyone reading Kitson deserves a thorough old-school thrashing.



lol


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I worry about things turning violent as people here who seem to favour direct action seem to be inspired by this.



Fucking hell, it's like watching a septuagenarian maiden aunt piss herself in paroxysms of overwrought concern.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> I worry about things turning violent as people here who seem to favour direct action seem to be inspired by this.



Fuck off.

ViolentPanda - that's the way to do it!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> It is an anarchist thing.



No it isn't.



> Sadly BLM is not the poll tax and cannot be fixed with a minor policy tweek and name change.
> 
> I hope that is not the case but when Class War cancel their Boris March to join BLM protests I just envision a load of people who enjoy a good protest getting involved.



Because, as above, you don't have much of a clue what you're on about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Because, as above, you don't have much of a clue what you're on about.


Not a clew at all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 5, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes, just from seeing online comments and the tone of media reports. Plus until last week I worked with a load of non urban type people and any discussion of these issues was normally pro police, pro government, pro the sun newspaper.



The impression I got today, on my inner London council estate, was that of people having seen/read about the protests, and giving the tactics a thumbs-up. Still, we're just proles on the frontline of police violence and bullshit. What do we know?


----------



## DRINK? (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The impression I got today, on my inner London council estate, was that of people having seen/read about the protests, and giving the tactics a thumbs-up. Still, we're just proles on the frontline of police violence and bullshit. What do we know?


 
never happened


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> If ever there was a group of people I didn't give a fuck about, it's holidaymakers.


dont know why but that made me 

carry on


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 5, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> dont know why but that made me
> 
> carry on



It made me laugh for about 90 secs then I posted....joke


----------



## Anju (Aug 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The impression I got today, on my inner London council estate, was that of people having seen/read about the protests, and giving the tactics a thumbs-up. Still, we're just proles on the frontline of police violence and bullshit. What do we know?



Before I settle down to watch the Olympics..

Today was a mess. The message was incoherent and to say you are protesting against the drowning of migrants under the banner of black lives matter is outrageous. 

Start a new movement if you want to campaign on different  issues. 

Today was a step towards marginalisation.  You may have a different opinion but that doesn't mean I am wrong.  

BLM in the US is now applying pressure at the highest levels of government.  See the links below.  This gives instant legitimacy to BLM here. Some of that was lost today.

The 3 young women who started BLM have shown what can be achieved. An organisation founded in 2012 about to have a say in US  education policy after 4 years.  

The way this has slipped from the media today says to me that BLM in Britain may have lost any leverage the beautiful peaceful marches where the public seemed sympathetic had gained them. 

The Ambitious Education Plan of the Black Lives Matter Movement

TIME Person of the Year 2015 Runner-Up: Black Lives Matter

I have a vested interest in reducing racism and promoting equality in this country as my children are mixed race. I did not agree with the action today and the confused goals I have seen being given by the people that organised this further pissed me off. Not sure why you got so upset.


----------



## krink (Aug 5, 2016)

I've read the thread hoping to find out more about the UK BLM and what it is about,  who is behind it etc.  and I actually feel like I know even less now. Ah well,  off to sift through Google...


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Oh, the protest. Certainly the _reason_ is that the "rule of law" isn't, but that irony wasn't explored.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


>



"I only run over them if they were in my path" 2016 let alone 2000AD at it's most prescient!

I for one will accept our robot kitten overloads.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

Im really heartened to see the bringing together of institutional racism (inc deaths in custody) and our siblings dying at the borders. Theres a really important and powerful link being made there. Jimmy Mubenga's life mattered just as much as Mark Duggans, regardless of their papers, and both were victims of the a system which brutalises my siblings daily. Full solidarity and love for the ppl involved in these actions.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 6, 2016)

Siblings - humans?

I'll put an unpopular view that Mark Duggans life wasn't perceived as well because of family connections. Others needed to be sorted. There isn't a lot to go on when you understand the last deaths this year in police custody the last 15/17 people that have died have been white..still lots more in other areas but white boys (up north) more likely to (grenade) crime - dirty northerners!

It's still an issue - but one to work around.

WE ARE THE UK..let's chill...if not I'll kill you all


----------



## Wilf (Aug 6, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "Any Questions" has just had a question asking if this indicates a breakdown in the rule of law


Fucking hope so.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 6, 2016)

krink said:


> I've read the thread hoping to find out more about the UK BLM and what it is about,  who is behind it etc.  and I actually feel like I know even less now. Ah well,  off to sift through Google...


 Me too, till today I didn't know BLM was organising in the UK. 

Anyway, to those saying 'don't disrupt the commuters/it's counterproductive/the public don't care', I'm hardly going to mount some theoretical defence of BLM tactics after I've just said I didn't know they were over here. However I'm 100% certain a fucking load of people wouldn't have been discussing the topic today if it wasn't for BLM. And whilst 'doing something' isn't always a justification in itself, this seems like exactly the right way to start and develop a campaign. It connects deaths in custody here to police murders of black people in America - and accordingly connects _campaigners_ here to campaigners in America. Also, the actions today were inevitably going to come up against the police, so again a good connection. Like Krink, I don't know who was involved or their specific politics, but as an _action_ it looked to be well judged.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 6, 2016)

I wish BLM stuck 'too' n the end if their name then it would shut all those ignorant pricks up saying white lives matter too before they even got a chance to say it. 

This protest has certainly got it in the media so job done on that front. I'm not sure how much support there is for it in the wider public though or whether the wider public think there's a need for BLM in the UK. I don't think bringing up deaths that happened 25 years ago is going to persuade people there's an ongoing problem of police murdering black people in the UK. Don't take this as me being against the protest because I'm not, it takes a lot of courage, more courage than I have to lay in the middle of the M4! I just wonder how this will be received by the wider public and how effectively BLM can present their case to the wider public and show there is actually a need for it.


----------



## mauvais (Aug 6, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> What she did with mauvais today she's done with me. She plays that race card completely unjustifiably then hides behind lies and obfuscation when she gets pulled on it. I know she's a mate of yours which is fine, I stick up for mates too, but sometimes the criticism is thoroughly deserved.


Eh, you know what, it counts for nothing in the end. If I thought it mattered, I'd have handled it differently. As it is, it's self-evident - food for the professional point scorers while it lasts, but little else beyond.

My bigger problem is once again not being able to question anything for the admittedly naive purposes of my own education without the assumption that I'm asserting something or just generally on the wind up. I've been here long enough to understand why that's a half reasonable bet, however it's not actually the case. FWIW I did have second thoughts about posting anything today.

I did learn something - a little new case history, and something of a counterpoint in that BLMUK appear to have had a successful day and made some inroads. For me at least, it has transitioned from weak narrative solidarity tie-in to a more coherent set of domestic complaints. Quite possibly twas ever thus. Really though any insight didn't come from here, where the signal:noise ratio is shit and I spent most of the time arguing with people who don't give much of fuck about the subject compared to profile and point scoring again. Time for a holiday I think.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 6, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I don't think bringing up deaths that happened 25 years ago is going to persuade people there's an ongoing problem of police murdering black people in the UK.



How do you demonstrate that it is an ongoing issue without referring to deaths that have happened in the past?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> How do you demonstrate that it is an ongoing issue without referring to deaths that have happened in the past?



Just to add, as I'm sure you know Rutita1, those deaths are still relevent today particularly as no one has been brought to justice over them. And in some cases families are still fighting for inquests etc as in the case of Seni Lewis for example.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Just to add, as I'm sure you know Rutita1, those deaths are still relevent today particularly as no one has been brought to justice over them. And in some cases families are still fighting for inquests etc as in the case of Seni Lewis for example.



Yes, I do know. I just thought i'd ask the question because from where I am sitting I don't see any other way of demonstrating the historical relationship/nature of this issue without referring to and remembering those people who have died at the hands of the police previously. Those police tweets posted a couple of pages back are an insult IMO more so for the reason you have pointed out, that many families are still fighting for justice.


----------



## inva (Aug 6, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I wish BLM stuck 'too' n the end if their name then it would shut all those ignorant pricks up saying white lives matter too before they even got a chance to say it.


there's nothing about saying 'black lives matter' to suggest that other lives don't, so I think tbh they'd find a way just the same.



> This protest has certainly got it in the media so job done on that front. I'm not sure how much support there is for it in the wider public though or whether the wider public think there's a need for BLM in the UK. I don't think bringing up deaths that happened 25 years ago is going to persuade people there's an ongoing problem of police murdering black people in the UK.


just to reiterate what's already been said in reply to this. the thing is that it's making a good point isn't it? one that needs to be made - that what happens now isn't isolated, it's part of a whole history that's never been dealt with (properly anyway), never had justice. I think the protests would be weaker for not including that history.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes, I do know. I just thought i'd ask the question because from where I am sitting I do see any way of demonstrating the historical relationship/nature of this issue without referring to and remembering those people who have died at the hands of the police previously. Those police tweets posted a couple of pages back are an insult IMO more so for the reason you have pointed out, that many families are still fighting for justice.



Absolutely agree and it's definitely a question worth asking following the previous statement.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Those police tweets posted a couple of pages back are an insult IMO more so for the reason you have pointed out, that many families are still fighting for justice.


Just saw these on blmuk's twitter.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Just saw these on blmuk's twitter.
> View attachment 90391



Fucks sake get the facts right. It was 28 times in the West Midlands, 11 times in London. And that was up to 2011.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Just saw these on blmuk's twitter.
> View attachment 90391


Posters from 2014 as bottom one says, and still very valid


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Fucks sake get the facts right. It was 28 times in the West Midlands, 11 times in London. And that was up to 2011.


And in 2014?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

"Facts" from the OB themselves relating to their racist stop & search record 2014.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Posters from 2014 as bottom one says, and still very valid



I really like the strike posters ❤


----------



## fuck seals (Aug 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i would expect interested posters to bear those things in mind.



Seriously?

Poptying is being poptyping, no surprise.  However your input is usually a little better judged.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Posters from 2014 as bottom one says, and still very valid



The bottom one is simply wrong. So not valid at all.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 6, 2016)

What's lined up for today, anyone know?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> The bottom one is simply wrong. So not valid at all.


It _may _be factually incorrect, (compared to official data), but it is wrong to say that the poster's message is 'invalid' as a result. With official figures showing that section 60 S&S rates are 17 times higher for blacks than whites in London, the poster reflects very accurately the reality for many Londoners. 


> _*Black people are stopped and searched at just over 3 times the rate of white people across London in 2014/15 *whilst people from mixed backgrounds were searched at one and a half times the rate of whites. Asians were searched at a marginally higher rate than whites and people from Chinese or other ethnic minority backgrounds are under-represented in searches. These London-wide disproportionality figures have remained largely the same over the last three years.
> 
> There is greater disproportionality under section 60, a suspicionless power which increased compared to the previous year. *Black people are searched at over 17 times the rate of whites, mixed people are searched at under 7 times that rate and Asians at over twice the rate*. People from Chinese or other minority backgrounds were searched at almost twice the rate of whites.
> _


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> It _may _be factually incorrect, (compared to official data), but it is wrong to say that the poster's message is 'invalid' as a result. With official figures showing that section 60 S&S rates are 17 times higher for blacks than whites in London, the poster reflects very accurately the reality for many Londoners.
> ​



And why is Section 60 implemented? Is data available?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> And why is Section 60 implemented? Is data available?


Don't know about data, but 'StopWatch' do offer this fact-sheet:-

Section 60 factsheet


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 6, 2016)

It would be useful to map the use of Section 6o to specific areas in London. I imagine that robbery and knife crime might be a significant driver behind it's use.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> "Facts" from the OB themselves relating to their racist stop & search record 2014.


What's going on in Dorset then?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> What's going on in Dorset then?


Racism.


----------



## inva (Aug 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> And why is Section 60 implemented? Is data available?





> A week later, the Inspectorate of Constabulary found in a report that police in England and Wales failed to record the "reasonable" reasons for stopping and searching people in 27% of 8,783 cases examined.
> 
> In those cases, it found that either no grounds had been recorded or the officer had entered a reason which would not justify a search, such as speeding.


link


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 6, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> How do you demonstrate that it is an ongoing issue without referring to deaths that have happened in the past?


It doesn't indicate an ongoing issue to me. I'm not saying there isn't problems with racism in the police, the stop and search issue alone indicates there is but I don't think it indicates there's some terrible ongoing issue.

 I'm not saying 'oh shut up it's nothing like america' but I was just looking at inquest's figures, not massively in depth I grant you but they paint a pretty mixed picture. The old bill were seemingly on a bit of a rampage in the 90s but it's dropped off considerably in this century. My point is BLM has gained wider public support in the US because of what can readily be observed and on a pretty regular basis, the more it happens, the more vocal BLM are the more people think 'yeah there is a case to be answered' and the more absurd the state's defence of its actions become. In this country I just don't see that happening because people can either dismiss it outright or say 'yeah you might have a point about stop and search but do you really have to block the road?' They can also look at inquest's figures like I did and not really see what BLM's point is. Again, don't take it as me disagreeing I'm looking it at from the stand point of the general public's perception of it.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 6, 2016)

I've already seen a 19 year old Tory tweet "All lives matter" retweeted on my timeline.


----------



## Anju (Aug 6, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> I've already seen a 19 year old Tory tweet "All lives matter" retweeted on my timeline.



19 year old Tory


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> 19 year old Tory


So young and yet so chinless.


----------



## Anju (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> "Facts" from the OB themselves relating to their racist stop & search record 2014.



This is one area where education can make at least some difference.  My kids have been taught how to deal with being stopped and searched by an organisation that runs courses in youth clubs and other after school schemes. They know their rights and have a little card that they carry with their bus pass. 

Would be great if they ran the same course in schools.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Racism.


Well, durr!

But what makes Dorset so massively out of step with the rest of the country? 

There's something odd going on there.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> This is one area where education can make at least some difference.  My kids have been taught how to deal with being stopped and searched by an organisation that runs courses in youth clubs and other after school schemes. They know their rights and have a little card that they carry with their bus pass.
> 
> Would be great if they ran the same course in schools.


Yep that's the solution, education the victims.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Well, durr!
> 
> But what makes Dorset so massively out of step with the rest of the country?
> 
> There's something odd going on there.


web handed freemasonry


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 6, 2016)

Pretty articulate and succinct interview here. They've certainly started a conversation like they intended.

We Asked Black Lives Matter UK Why They Blocked the Road to Heathrow Today | VICE | United Kingdom


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

Inquest only counts one BAME death in custody this year. So what happens to the Sarah Reeds? I take it she's the one not being counted and that the one refers to Mzee Mohammed. There are massive questions left unanswered about what happened to her in Holloway. We say her name but she's not counted in the statistics. She's still a victim of the same institutionally racist system that killed Mzee. How many more Sarahs have there been that we don't know about because they aren't counted.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> It doesn't indicate an ongoing issue to me. I'm not saying there isn't problems with racism in the police, the stop and search issue alone indicates there is but I don't think it indicates there's some terrible ongoing issue.
> 
> I'm not saying 'oh shut up it's nothing like america' but I was just looking at inquest's figures, not massively in depth I grant you but they paint a pretty mixed picture. The old bill were seemingly on a bit of a rampage in the 90s but it's dropped off considerably in this century. My point is BLM has gained wider public support in the US because of what can readily be observed and on a pretty regular basis, the more it happens, the more vocal BLM are the more people think 'yeah there is a case to be answered' and the more absurd the state's defence of its actions become. In this country I just don't see that happening because people can either dismiss it outright or say 'yeah you might have a point about stop and search but do you really have to block the road?' They can also look at inquest's figures like I did and not really see what BLM's point is. Again, don't take it as me disagreeing I'm looking it at from the stand point of the general public's perception of it.



I think it's important to see things much more widely than just the statistics of deaths in custody, stop and search figures etc.
On Monday it'll be exactly a year since a 17 year old boy was murdered on my street in broad daylight. It took 4 days before the police came knocking on my door to ask if I'd seen anything, and when they did come in they mentioned the word 'gang' within minutes. Without any evidence at all that the dead boy had been involved in anything like that.
The court case is happening now so there's nothing I can usefully say but there's no doubt in my mind that if it'd been me (a middle class white lady) lying there the police response would have been a lot different.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> The court case is happening now so there's nothing I can usefully say but there's no doubt in my mind that if it's been me (a middle class white lady) the police response would have been a lot different.



they'd have fitted up the local eccentric/mentaly ill bloke. Bulsara job. Or found a convenient black kid to stitch up. Inherently lazy, police. As well as riddled with the prejudices and racisms we so despise them for


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

DRINK? said:


> never happened



It did. People on my estate talk to me, you see. I must have a trustworthy face, or perhaps it's because Greebo and I both do a bit of community work, and where we live is quite "neighbourly".


----------



## Anju (Aug 6, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Yep that's the solution, education the victims.



I said that it could make some difference.  If people don't know their rights how can they demand them. Also, ensuring your stop is correctly recorded helps produce more accurate figures.

There is no magical top down solution to the problem of racism in the police force.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Inquest only counts one BAME death in custody this year. So what happens to the Sarah Reeds? I take it she's the one not being counted and that the one refers to Mzee Mohammed. There are massive questions left unanswered about what happened to her in Holloway. We say her name but she's not counted in the statistics. She's still a victim of the same institutionally racist system that killed Mzee. How many more Sarahs have there been that we don't know about because they aren't counted.


Their statistics for prison custody are separate: there have been 17 BAME deaths in prisons so far this year, out of a total of 207 deaths in prison so far this year (last year it was 27 BAME deaths out of 256 deaths).
Deaths of immigration detainees are also separate: there have been 3 deaths in the past 12 months (i think) of immigration detainees in prison or immigration detention or removal centres.
There has been 1 BAME death in police custody or following police contact so far this year out of a total of 21 deaths in police custody or following police contact (last year it was 5 BAME deaths out of 31 deaths).
Grim reading.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> I've already seen a 19 year old Tory tweet "All lives matter" retweeted on my timeline.


its the new 'white history month'


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> Their statistics for prison custody are separate: there have been 17 BAME deaths in prisons so far this year, out of a total of 207 deaths in prison so far this year (last year it was 27 BAME deaths out of 256 deaths).
> Deaths of immigration detainees are also separate: there have been 3 deaths in the past 12 months (i think) of immigration detainees in prison or immigration detention or removal centres.
> There has been 1 BAME death in police custody or following police contact so far this year out of a total of 21 deaths in police custody or following police contact (last year it was 5 BAME deaths out of 31 deaths).
> Grim reading.




Thanks for this. I think what I meant was that ppl just taking an initial look at inquests website would just see one death and think oh what are we complaining about as has been said on this thread. Separating out these deaths is definately useful for seeing what's happening in the different settings but can make it seem like less bc you're seeing a fragmented picture... Most ppl don't even know the names of Sarah and Mzee to even ask the question and look further.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> Before I settle down to watch the Olympics..
> 
> Today was a mess. The message was incoherent and to say you are protesting against the drowning of migrants under the banner of black lives matter is outrageous.



So for you, black lives mattering stops at the UK's borders?

Because that's the logic of what you've written - that black lives don't matter if they're the lives of blacks crossing the Med from the continent of Africa.

And before you say anything irredeemably crass like "Syrians aren't black", I'm from a time when all non-white minorities in the UK happily identified as "black". 



> Start a new movement if you want to campaign on different  issues.



Heaven forfend that BLM have some immediate relevancy beyond deaths in custody! 



> Today was a step towards marginalisation.  You may have a different opinion but that doesn't mean I am wrong.
> 
> BLM in the US is now applying pressure at the highest levels of government.  See the links below.  This gives instant legitimacy to BLM here. Some of that was lost today.



Fuck, you just don't get it, do you? BLM is dropping activists by the dozen because the leadership are perceived as sell-outs - as middle-class blacks setting themselves up for comfortable jobs with the political establishment. What you see as legitimacy, some grass-roots members see as selling out the movement. 



> The 3 young women who started BLM have shown what can be achieved. An organisation founded in 2012 about to have a say in US  education policy after 4 years.
> 
> The way this has slipped from the media today says to me that BLM in Britain may have lost any leverage the beautiful peaceful marches where the public seemed sympathetic had gained them.
> 
> ...



Here's the thing - sometimes you don't get to do "beautiful peaceful marches". Sometimes you have to get in the face of power and be an irritant. Physical direct action has - and I'd say this is unfortunate but necessary - won more for equality and racial tolerance, than peace ever has. 



> Not sure why you got so upset.



Because in nearly 40 years of anti-racism and anti-fascism, I've only ever seen the sort of "play by their rules" protest you favour, get people stamped on or ignored.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Im really heartened to see the bringing together of institutional racism (inc deaths in custody) and our siblings dying at the borders. Theres a really important and powerful link being made there. Jimmy Mubenga's life mattered just as much as Mark Duggans, regardless of their papers, and both were victims of the a system which brutalises my siblings daily. Full solidarity and love for the ppl involved in these actions.



What boils my piss is that people who are obviously anti-racist when it comes to specific issues like deaths in custody, don't see that it's the same virus of institutional racism that devalues the lives of detainees like Mubenga, and fails to police people-trafficking in anything like an effective manner. If you try to change one without changing every other point on the spectrum of institutional racism, you will fail. If BLM follow Anju's prescription, they will fail, as well as likely being incorporated into the Establishment. Remember the CRE, and how they went from being effective, to being an excuse-maker for the Establishment under Trev Phillips?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

inva said:


> there's nothing about saying 'black lives matter' to suggest that other lives don't, so I think tbh they'd find a way just the same.



I find some of the reactions to the term "black lives matter" bewildering. The name *very obviously* has its' roots in a Western culture that values black lives - and lets, for the sake of convenience, take "black" to mean "non-white", although that elides some anti-immigrant sentiment - less than white lives. There's nothing offensive or divisive about asserting that fact, and saying "my life matters as much as yours", and those whining that "white lives matter too" entirely miss the point that those white lives are already valued more than black lives, institutionally.



> just to reiterate what's already been said in reply to this. the thing is that it's making a good point isn't it? one that needs to be made - that what happens now isn't isolated, it's part of a whole history that's never been dealt with (properly anyway), never had justice. I think the protests would be weaker for not including that history.



Quite. The history is the foundation for the movement existing.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

Yeah. And US BLM make the links with people without papers too. And for the reasons that have already been outlined it makes absolutely sense. Black lives matter not just the ones with the right passports within our borders.

Cc ViolentPanda


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> This is one area where education can make at least some difference.  My kids have been taught how to deal with being stopped and searched by an organisation that runs courses in youth clubs and other after school schemes. They know their rights and have a little card that they carry with their bus pass.
> 
> Would be great if they ran the same course in schools.



The problem being that assertive black kids generally end up getting punished for being assertive, and not "knowing their place".


----------



## likesfish (Aug 6, 2016)

Thing is protesting that Black lives matter is one thing.
 "Ok what do you want to happen?" its not an unreasonable question to ask your protesting what are your demands?


----------



## Anju (Aug 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> So black lives mattering stops at the UK's borders?
> 
> Because that's the logic of what you've written - that black lives don't matter if they're the lives of blacks crossing the Med from the continent of Africa.
> 
> ...



BLM is a movement specifically addressing the issues facing black people. To bring up migrant deaths at sea in this context is an insult to every non black death in the same circumstances. Clue is in the name.

The fact that you want to use black as a term to describe anyone who is not white because that us how it used to be in your white world is desperately stupid and arrogant on your part. Now look here people of colour I have gone to a lot of trouble helping you poor chaps and if I say you are all black then that's how it is. How dare you try and define yourselves.

BLM did have relevancy outside deaths in custody, if you had bothered to read the links I provided.  Yes that is the US movement but the same could be achieved here.

What the fuck has class got to do with it. Yesterday when I said this seemed like the movement was being hijacked people objected and now here you are saying the leadership were perceived as being middle class and looking for comfortable jobs in the establishment.   That is an insult to not only the people who started the movement here but also the founders in America who are very much working with the establishment. If people wanted to campaign on a different platform in a different manner they should not disrupt something that has been started with specific goals and begun campaigning in a certain way.  As I said before BLM came with a certain amount of legitimacy and was seen as having a successful start here. People with a different agenda have seen the success and are trying to dig their parasitic little claws in.  

Look at the turnout yesterday evening. Lower numbers and from the pictures a different crowd. Manchester  before was over a thousand people, yesterday evening it was about 50.  London was a couple of hundred, and that was in a park on a sunny Friday evening in East London. What would it have been in central London?  This was after a day if publicity in national media. I changed my mind about it  being a step towards marginalisation, it was a leap. 

Do you really believe that blocking a few roads upset anyone in power. They will have loved what happened yesterday.  No more having to worry about BLM for them.


----------



## Anju (Aug 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The problem being that assertive black kids generally end up getting punished for being assertive, and not "knowing their place".



I thought you were in favour of direct action.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> The fact that you want to use black as a term to describe anyone who is not white because that us how it used to be in your white world is desperately stupid and arrogant on your part. Now look here people of colour I have gone to a lot of trouble helping you poor chaps and if I say you are all black then that's how it is. How dare you try and define yourselves.


once upon a time- perhaps still is with some people I don't know- there was political Black identification that people of colour made themselves, it wasn't some exterior imposed thing but a solidarity thing. I only learned of this a couple of years ago


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

The issues are very real but I don't think importing a US franchise and the implicit analysis with it is the best way to go about. Playing footloose with the stats like they have is counterproductive. 

Whoever made the point about this stuff should of been happening with Iraq war is spot on, unfortunately we tend to have mass protests that don't do direct action whilst we have small activist groups that do but without a wider movement. 

The IWCA statment on it was of course right on a number of points but how it was presented made it too easy to dismiss them as class reductionists.

Still a bit of an own goal of BLM to fudge the figures, instead they should have addressed them and used it to push the fact that these issues extend beyond black lives, heading off the inevitable "all lives matter" retorts. Maybe that was implicit in their use of the figures but they definitely needed to be clearer. 

Then again a great deal of them seem rather posh and dangling for careers so maybe framing it in such terms will be useful for carving out a niche in the politico career market. Not like that's never happened before in the UK... ahem GLC


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 6, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> once upon a time- perhaps still is with some people I don't know- there was political Black identification that people of colour made themselves, it wasn't some exterior imposed thing but a solidarity thing. I only learned of this a couple of years ago


Read up on the asian youth movements and their identification as black - kenan malik talks about this, as does Anandi Ramamurthy.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

Marcia Rigg is involved in UK BLM. I think that gives it a lot of legitimacy. Marcia Rigg us exactly the sort of person who's lead we should be following.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Then again a great deal of them seem rather posh and dangling for careers so maybe framing it in such terms will be useful for carving out a niche in the politico career market. Not like that's never happened before in the UK... ahem GLC



In relation to the US:
The Fight For The Soul Of The Black Lives Matter Movement



> But some grassroots activists who began organizing out of anger towards the grand jury decisions, as well as the fatal police shooting of Akai Gurley, many of them working class and politically unconnected, fear that the establishment-friendly reformism championed by the Justice League threatens to water down the struggle against state violence. They worry that the group's ties to city government and wealthy celebrities make it nearly indistinguishable from the power it's trying to change. The result has been a quiet struggle for the future of the Black Lives Matter movement in New York City.



I've seen many similar pieces, ones with a mich more sharper tone as well.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Yeah and then there's your self proclaimed BLM leader who is Teach America scab.

Saying that the BLM manifesto was kind of Social Democratic, mostly Bernie stuff but with reparations and police reform tacked on.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> once upon a time- perhaps still is with some people I don't know- there was political Black identification that people of colour made themselves, it wasn't some exterior imposed thing but a solidarity thing. I only learned of this a couple of years ago



It's gone out of favour because poltical blackness ended up erasing people who are ethnically black  (their voices, experiences etc were erased in favour of those who were ethically brown typically British Asians). Political blackness acted in a way which reinforced anti blackness and has generally been dropped by younger anti racist campaigners and activitist. Although ppl from the older generations still tend to have stronger ties to the term because for many it is a signifier of a time of great solidarity and action.


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## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

I see poor Ross (can't remember his username on here) is getting in the neck for defending the IWCA statment.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> It's gone out of favour because poltical blackness ended up erasing people who are ethnically black  (their voices, experiences etc were erased in favour of those who were ethically brown typically British Asians). Political blackness acted in a way which reinforced anti blackness and has generally been dropped by younger anti racist campaigners and activitist. Although ppl from the older generations still tend to have stronger ties to the term because for many it is a signifier of a time of great solidarity and action.



Yeah the cynic in me thinks some of the non black people jumping on it are a bit Straight Outta Goldsmiths.

And of course when you get some plastic paddies trying to stick their arm in, well lol.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 6, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> So young and yet so chinless.



It's difficult to blame the young when we have left them a lack of viable options.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

So much of the BLM stuff seems focused on real millennial fluff politics of "healing" etc Funny reading grumpy old civil rights and black power veterans getting pissed off at a lack of concrete demands, infavour of getting people like Clinton to tweet #BLM or pay lip service to it in a speech.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Yeah the cynic in me thinks some of the non black people jumping on it are a bit Straight Outta Goldsmiths.



Jumping on what?


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Jumping on what?



The politically black thing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> BLM is a movement specifically addressing the issues facing black people. To bring up migrant deaths at sea in this context is an insult to every non black death in the same circumstances. Clue is in the name.



No, it really isn't an insult, and the clue isn't in the name unless you're wedded to the idea that "black" only describes people of sub-Saharan African origin and their descendants.   



> The fact that you want to use black as a term to describe anyone who is not white because that us how it used to be in your white world is desperately stupid and arrogant on your part.



In my "white world"?   Thanks for showing yourself up. You've just reduced a nuanced argument to a pathetic version of identity politics where you believe your views have greater validity because your children are mixed race.  You entirely miss the point of what I said about the term "black" as a descriptor - that it had historic utility as a *unifier* of people exposed to racism in the UK.

Ever listen to "It Dread Inna Inglan" by Linton Kwesi Johnson? Those "Bradford blacks" he mentioned were the local Afro-Caribbean, Pakistani and Chinese communities. They (and he) knew that strength comes from unity, as did the likes of Darcus Howe.

Accuse me of being "desperately stupid and arrogant" all you like. Your name-calling lends no validity to your argument



> Now look here people of colour I have gone to a lot of trouble helping you poor chaps and if I say you are all black then that's how it is. How dare you try and define yourselves.



Yeah, because that's exactly what I said, isn't it? 



> BLM did have relevancy outside deaths in custody, if you had bothered to read the links I provided.  Yes that is the US movement but the same could be achieved here.
> 
> What the fuck has class got to do with it.



Everything.



> Yesterday when I said this seemed like the movement was being hijacked people objected and now here you are saying the leadership were perceived as being middle class and looking for comfortable jobs in the establishment.



You spoke of people yesterday hijacking the UK movement for their own ends - i.e. expanding the remit of the movement beyond what you perceive to be the core issue of deaths in custody.
What I spoke of today - as is fairly obvious to anyone who reads - is that some of the US movement's upper hierarchy - many of whom are middle-class blacks, not people who've risen through the ranks from grass-roots local chapters - are parlaying their positions in BLM into positions in the Democratic Party and federal bodies.



> That is an insult to not only the people who started the movement here but also the founders in America who are *very much working with the establishment*.



On whose authority, besides their own?




> If people wanted to campaign on a different platform in a different manner they should not disrupt something that has been started with specific goals and begun campaigning in a certain way.  As I said before BLM came with a certain amount of legitimacy and was seen as having a successful start here. People with a different agenda have seen the success and are trying to dig their parasitic little claws in.



"Can't you feel the air? There's too much paranoia!", as John Lydon and Glen Matlock said.

Protest movements are fluid. They go where the need is, or they die. It appears that you'd prefer an ossified movement to a live one.  



> Look at the turnout yesterday evening. Lower numbers and from the pictures a different crowd. Manchester  before was over a thousand people, yesterday evening it was about 50.  London was a couple of hundred, and that was in a park on a sunny Friday evening in East London. What would it have been in central London?  This was after a day if publicity in national media. I changed my mind about it  being a step towards marginalisation, it was a leap.
> 
> Do you really believe that blocking a few roads upset anyone in power. They will have loved what happened yesterday.  No more having to worry about BLM for them.



Do you play chess, at all? Sometimes a move isn't obvious, and neither is the gain from it. You seem to believe that yesterday was the opening move in a battle. I believe - based on having seen similar happen many times before, form any different movements - that yesterday was a publicity exercise, and as a publicity exercise and a marker of intent, it worked well.

That you don't believe that stopping business traffic for several hours won't have infuriated those in power, shows the shallowness of your opinion. Anything that impinges on capitalism's ability to perpetuate itself infuriates them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> I thought you were in favour of direct action.



I am, but I don't preach it when experience tells me that the result is someone getting a shoeing from a bunch of thugs in the back of a van. Maybe you live somewhere that has coppers who are less predictably racist and chippy. Round here, for at least the last 40 years, if you question SUS/Stop & Search, you start down the avenue that leads to that van, regardless of whether you're black or white.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Yeah the cynic in me thinks some of the non black people jumping on it are a bit Straight Outta Goldsmiths.
> 
> And of course when you get some plastic paddies trying to stick their arm in, well lol.



Straight outta Goldsmiths..

That's an "E"quality rap just waiting to happen!


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

I wouldn't be taken in by the "direct action" of blocking roads, form doesn't always equate to content, the politics are a lot less radical than the rhetoric.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> The politically black thing.



I don't get what you mean? Not being obtuse.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> I don't get what you mean? Not being obtuse.



You posted about politically black as a category ended up largely flattening out and erasing the experience of black people. Im suggesting that might well be happening with many of the Goldsmiths types who have embraced the politically black label, that is they are erasing the vast difference in experience between say a Turkish Cypriot, an Asian med student and a black kid from Hackney.

I mean you even had old Gerry Adams trying to get in on it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> You posted about politically black as a category ended up largely flattening out and erasing the experience of black people. Im suggesting that might well be happening with many of the Goldsmiths types who have embraced the politically black label, that is they are erasing the vast difference in experience between say a Turkish Cypriot, an Asian med student and a black kid from Hackney.
> 
> I mean you even had old Gerry Adams trying to get in on it.


in the 1990s irish students counted as black for the nus, and were entitled to attend nus black students conference, fwiw.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> You posted about politically black as a category ended up largely flattening out and erasing the experience of black people. Im suggesting that might well be happening with many of the Goldsmiths types who have embraced the politically black label, that is they are erasing the vast difference in experience between say a Turkish Cypriot, an Asian med student and a black kid from Hackney.
> 
> I mean you even had old Gerry Adams trying to get in on it.



Yeah I dont think that many non-ethnically black people are doing that as much as they were say 30 years ago. I imagine that any non black poc claiming political blackness at Goldsmiths would be shot down savagely. 

I mean look what happened to Malia Bouattia when she got elected as president of the NUS and it was claimed she was the first black woman to hold that office. Of course that wasn't helped by the fact that she had previously been the officer for black students.

Any nonblack poc claiming political blackness will get dragged.


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## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> in the 1990s irish students counted as black for the nus, and were entitled to attend nus black students conference, fwiw.



Yeah hence my plastic paddy point. 

There was also a number of state funded oirish identity rackets peddling their wares. Didn't a number of them protest about Father Ted lol


----------



## Anju (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Marcia Rigg is involved in UK BLM. I think that gives it a lot of legitimacy. Marcia Rigg us exactly the sort of person who's lead we should be following.



Marcia Rigg has made it clear that she is not involved in running BLM.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Yeah I dont think that many non-ethnically black people are doing that as much as they were say 30 years ago. I imagine that any non black poc claiming political blackness at Goldsmiths would be shot down savagely.
> 
> I mean look what happened to Malia Bouattia when she got elected as president of the NUS and it was claimed she was the first black woman to hold that office. Of course that wasn't helped by the fact that she had previously been the officer for black students.
> 
> Any nonblack poc claiming political blackness will get dragged.



I think thirty years ago there might have been a stronger case for it as a poltical category of solidarity, it's revival now seems much more about trying to get the best hand in Oppression top trumps, as badly played by your one at Goldsmiths


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> Marcia Rigg has made it clear that she is not involved in running BLM.



She's involved in the campaign. She's in the uk blm official  videos speakinh about the campaign and is quoted in the bbc as being in support of it.


----------



## Anju (Aug 6, 2016)

People that are criticising the BLM leadership for being middle class and prepared to work with the establishment are overlooking the massive contribution of the Lawrence family, who I would say have made a massive individual contribution to fighting institutional racism in this country.  If we could have a group of people working in the same way we could achieve even more.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> I think thirty years ago there might have been a stronger case for it as a poltical category of solidarity, it's revival now seems much more about trying to get the best hand in Oppression top trumps, as badly played by your one at Goldsmiths



There's a lot more critique around the term than there was in the past. I really don't think it's had much of a resurgence in popularity in fact it seems to have been roundly discredited as not having any validity outside of its historical context and use.

Oppression Olympics? That doesn't sound very pleasant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Yeah hence my plastic paddy point.
> 
> There was also a number of state funded oirish identity rackets peddling their wares. Didn't a number of them protest about Father Ted lol


how peculiar


----------



## Anju (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> She's involved in the campaign. She's in the uk blm official  videos speakinh about the campaign and is quoted in the bbc as being in support of it.



A couple of my friends are friends with her on Facebook and they share some of her posts. This is from her today. 

" Good critique on the Guardian interview by Owen Jones. Can I make clear that I only support the BLM UK group but I am not one of the organisers. I campaign for all deaths, black and white  (United Families & Friends Campaign - UFFC). BLM UK has given the opportunity to raise awareness of black deaths in the UK in state custody as we are disproportionately affected. Most deaths in prison are young white men"

I posted yesterday that the people I know who attended all the BLM marches were not communicating about the action yesterday.  I will be seeing some of them tonight and if the drinking and dancing permit will ask what they feel about the action on Friday.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> There's a lot more critique around the term than there was in the past. I really don't think it's had much of a resurgence in popularity in fact it seems to have been roundly discredited as not having any validity outside of its historical context and use.
> 
> Oppression Olympics? That doesn't sound very pleasant.


 
My impression was it was back in. Then again I might be mistaking the leftist twitter sphere and NUS politico echo chamber with reality, which are really quite distinct things.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> A couple of my friends are friends with her on Facebook and they share some of her posts. This is from her today.
> 
> " Good critique on the Guardian interview by Owen Jones. Can I make clear that I only support the BLM UK group but I am not one of the organisers. I campaign for all deaths, black and white  (United Families & Friends Campaign - UFFC). BLM UK has given the opportunity to raise awareness of black deaths in the UK in state custody as we are disproportionately affected. Most deaths in prison are young white men"
> 
> I posted yesterday that the people I know who attended all the BLM marches were not communicating about the action yesterday.  I will be seeing some of them tonight and if the drinking and dancing permit will ask what they feel about the action on Friday.



I never said she was an organiser. I said she was involved and I based that on her appearance in the official video and being quoted as a source. You don't have to be am organiser of something to be involved in it. But if you want to conflate the two ok.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

I had assumed people had seen the IWCA statement on BLM UK, but looking back I don't see it discussed. Anyone any thoughts on it....

Black Lives Matter... but perceptions are not facts.

Black Lives Matter UK are the self-appointed leaders of a largely non-existent 'community', one that only exists in the minds of a vociferous intersectionalist and increasingly segregationist 'new left' in Britain.  The point, however, is that the perceptions of BLMUK are not based on facts.  These people are presenting a misleading case based on statistics about deaths in police custody that apply across the board and not only to Black and ethic minority communities.

A cursory examination of the figures suggest that it is predominantly poor working class people who die in police custody, regardless of religion, colour and ethnicity. There may well be issues over racist policing in particular areas, but you cannot generalise from the particular.

That is not to say that the issue of racist policing does not exist, it does and it needs to be confronted, but BLMUK is a predominantly middle-class movement that plays fast and loose with statistics.



The first statement made in the BLMUK video issued today is, "1562 deaths in my lifetime..."  The implication being that all of these deaths at the hands of the police since 1990 have been of Black & Asian people. However, according to the NGO Inquest, that figure is for ALL deaths in custody or at the hands of the police, not only black & ethnic minorities. In actual fact  approximately 10% of deaths at the hands of the police are from black & ethnic minorities.

The overall figure for deaths at the hands of the police is 1563
Deaths in police custody | INQUEST, while deaths of Black & Ethnic Minorities total 156
BAME deaths in police custody | INQUEST

The 2011 UK Census puts the Black & Asian population at 12%, which means that while there maybe differences in the policing of particular communities from one city to another, overall, Black & Asian people are no more likely to die at the hands of the police than anyone else. The stats suggest a containment of poor working class areas by increasingly politicised policing methods and while there maybe particular areas and communities that suffer disproportionately, this is overwhelmingly  a class issue, not a race issue.
Demography of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The video issued by BLMUK deliberately conflates deaths in police custody with the deaths by drowning of refugees in the Med.  

All progressives have an interest in ending government policy on war and refugees, but this group is sectionalising and racialising the issue in order to promote its own political agenda.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> My impression was it was back in. Then again I might be mistaking the leftist twitter sphere and NUS politico echo chamber with reality, which are really quite distinct things.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

The institute of race relations has it at over 500 deaths in suspicious circumstances in state detention since 1991 with no one being brought to justice. Those figures are a bit old now so will be higher. The majority of them were in prison and there are a small number of immigration detention related deaths included too. There's an article on the report findings in the guardian but I can't link to it from my phone. Looking at deaths in custody only doesn't give the full picture of the loss of life faced by people on black and brown communities and as explained earlier this campaign isn't just about loss of life but a whole range of other factors that mean young black men in particular are set up to fail.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> The institute of race relations has it at over 500 deaths in suspicious circumstances in state detention since 1991 with no one being brought to justice. Those figures are a bit old now so will be higher. The majority of them were in prison and there are a small number of immigration detention related deaths included too. There's an article on the report findings in the guardian but I can't link to it from my phone. Looking at deaths in custody only doesn't give the full picture of the loss of life faced by people on black and brown communities and as explained earlier this campaign isn't just about loss of life but a whole range of other factors that mean young black men in particular are set up to fail.



Yeah but I think being charitable we could say those BLM UK videos don't really give that impression. Possibly because any look at the stats in the UK suggest that importing a US approach with the implicit analysis of race that comes with it doesn't really fit with the UK. 

If they had focused on Stop and Search there is a definite parallel but it strikes me they are trying to fit just a bit too much under their umbrella in typical activisty manner.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

The cynic might suggest this everything but the kitchen sink approach is typical of multi national franchises. Flooding the high street with unsustainable stores, producing a monopoly and then reaping the media limelight/career opportunities, oh wait I mean profits.


----------



## sihhi (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> I had assumed people had seen the IWCA statement on BLM UK, but looking back I don't see it discussed. Anyone any thoughts on it....
> 
> Black Lives Matter... but perceptions are not facts.
> 
> ...




It is broadly correct, but the 1991 census had 7% of the population as non-white. If that figure instead of 12% ( 2011) was used to compare with the 10% (1563÷156) you get from INQUEST data, it's a different slant.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Yeah but I think being charitable we could say those BLM UK videos don't really give that impression. Possibly because any look at the stats in the UK suggest that importing a US approach with the implicit analysis of race that comes with it doesn't really fit with the UK.
> 
> If they had focused on Stop and Search there is a definite parallel but it strikes me they are trying to fit just a bit too much under their umbrella in typical activisty manner.



I really don't want to pick holes in what they are doing tbh.  I think we can all find fault with what any organisation or campaign does but this lot are actually out there doing it. I'm not sure about the messaging on the stats and I may even ask the organisers what the deal is with that... I don't think they would have set out to deceive anyone and I don't think they are explicitly said anywhere that the 1500 plus figure just related to black and brown people. If they just gave the figure for black and brown ppl then someone would again come along spouting all lives matter stuff all over the shop so maybe it was to mitigate that. Idk. And as I'm sure you know  black lives matter doesn't meant you don't care about white life.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

sihhi said:


> It is broadly correct, but the 1991 census had 7% of the population as non-white. If that figure instead of 12% ( 2011) was used to compare with the 10% (1563÷156) you get from INQUEST data, it's a different slant.



Yeah but it wasn't a wee mistake, they actually implied that all the deaths in custody were of black and Asian.

Either keep to the figures for black and Asian or use all the figures and use it to head off accusations that you don't care about white lives etc 

They literally went for the worst option, really stupid and counterproductive stuff, but then these are millennial politicos so everyone knows facts come second to showing how outraged you are.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> I really don't want to pick holes in what they are doing tbh.  I think we can all find fault with what any organisation or campaign does but this lot are actually out there doing it. I'm not sure about the messaging on the stats and I may even ask the organisers what the deal is with that... I don't think they would have set out to deceive anyone and I don't think they are explicitly said anywhere that the 1500 plus figure just related to black and brown people. If they just gave the figure for black and brown ppl then someone would again come along spouting all lives matter stuff all over the shop so maybe it was to mitigate that. Idk. And as I'm sure you know  black lives matter doesn't meant you don't care about white life.



How they do it matters. No one wants to become fathers4justice do they?


----------



## likesfish (Aug 6, 2016)

Black relations with the police may be poor in the UK but Compared with the US it's utopia so a rather more nuanced approach may be needed?some years the met shoot no one.
Current us policing they would be lucky to get through an hour with out a death.
Still more relevant than swedish Blm


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Black relations with the police may be poor in the UK but Compared with the US it's utopia so a rather more nuanced approach may be needed?some years the met shoot no one.
> Current us policing they would be lucky to get through an hour with out a death.
> Still more relevant than swedish Blm


way to miss the point.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> How they do it matters. No one wants to become fathers4justice do they?



 

Yeah of course how you do your action matters. I've got no problem with what they did yesterday. I do have a question about the 1500 figure but that's not enough for me to disregard all the brilliant things about what's been done. I will be asking though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> Marcia Rigg has made it clear that she is not involved in running BLM.



"Involved in" (what poptyping said), and not "...involved in running" (what you're saying) are two different things.


----------



## Anju (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Yeah but I think being charitable we could say those BLM UK videos don't really give that impression. Possibly because any look at the stats in the UK suggest that importing a US approach with the implicit analysis of race that comes with it doesn't really fit with the UK.
> 
> If they had focused on Stop and Search there is a definite parallel but it strikes me they are trying to fit just a bit too much under their umbrella in typical activisty manner.



This is pretty much my view, regarding fitting too much in, which is also leading to exclusion of some people suffering the same problems that are being campaigned on.  I was shocked to see people addressing the drowning of migrants under the name of BLM.

The first demonstrations in the UK were in support of the US movement and whatever has happened with the "leadership" has led to a confused message and a change of tactics.  I don't think activists realise how the general public can react to images in the media of shouty protests but my personal opinion is that the images from earlier marches, happy protesters touching fists with a rasta bus driver are about the maximum people will accept and actually look at the issues the protest is about with an open mind.

I do think there is a place for a BLM type movement, though would prefer a wider focus and BLM could have been used as a launch pad for this. Stop and search is a good start but  there are a lot of other figures and personal stories that show how race can impact on peoples lives. I think medical care is a bigger issue than people realise.  I know of one young black man who died through inadequate medical care being provided, due to doctors assumption of drug use.  From anecdotal evidence traffic stops might be another area where racial bias could be proven. There are also good statistics on employment issues for non white people.  My mum is in her 70s and she suggested I alter my first name on my CV, as it makes me look like I might be foreign.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

The journalist and author of "Why I am no longer talking to white people about race" (lol) makes the claim that the vast majority of deaths in custody are of black people. This is just blatantly wrong.

This kind of shit is such an own goal, makes it easier to dismiss the real issues and makes people protesting them look like prats. The story of the boy crying wolf ends with the wolf eating him...


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> I had assumed people had seen the IWCA statement on BLM UK, but looking back I don't see it discussed. Anyone any thoughts on it....
> 
> Black Lives Matter... but perceptions are not facts.
> 
> ...



I hadn't seen that IWCA thing so thanks for posting it. Was it on facebook or something? I think it makes a good start point but only that (in terms of a wider approach to this anyway, not about the stats stuff). It needs to recognise that, 40 or so years after it was coined, for many race remains the prism through class is experienced. (May have mangle the quote a bit there, but i'm watching the cricket and can't be bothered to find the exact bit) And that - going back to what you said about form and content not always being the same - this seems to have increasingly become the case in a period of official state sanctioned and institutionalised anti-racism. 

And then that needs to be placed within the class-based perspective and so questions can be asked about state/capital polices of social fragmentation outside of work, of deliberate differential policing, of punitive social policy and so on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> People that are criticising the BLM leadership for being middle class and prepared to work with the establishment are overlooking the massive contribution of the Lawrence family, who I would say have made a massive individual contribution to fighting institutional racism in this country.  If we could have a group of people working in the same way we could achieve even more.



The "middle class" criticism I made *clearly* referred to the US BLM. You either are repeatedly missing that point, or are being disingenuous in order to further your threadbare arguments, and you have form for the latter.


----------



## Anju (Aug 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Involved in" (what poptyping said), and not "...involved in running" (what you're saying) are two different things.



Fair enough but the fact that she felt she needed to make that statement and the wording looks to me as if she is distancing herself from any direct involvement with or in UKBLM.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

The thing is that there have been different groups working on these issues for years, BLM have swooped in and just seized the limelight on all them cos they have a sexy brand from the US. 

A few of my friends know people involved and are very cynical about them, most being full time activists and professional politicos or wannabes atleast.

I think BLM UK will be much better at launching some media careers than it will be seriously taking on deaths in police custody.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> There's a lot more critique around the term than there was in the past. I really don't think it's had much of a resurgence in popularity in fact it seems to have been roundly discredited as not having any validity outside of its historical context and use.
> 
> Oppression Olympics? That doesn't sound very pleasant.



As an aside, the utility of "black" as a descriptor was pretty much deliberately crushed via government "race relations" policy that basically told all the constituent communities "we're going to fund you on the basis of your community identities - as Jamaican and Pakistani and Cantonese and West African communities etc - not as a unified political voice", and the community leaders, such as some of them were, followed the money.


----------



## Anju (Aug 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The "middle class" criticism I made *clearly* referred to the US BLM. You either are repeatedly missing that point, or are being disingenuous in order to further your threadbare arguments, and you have form for the latter.



My mistake.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> Fair enough but the fact that she felt she needed to make that statement and the wording looks to me as if she is distancing herself from any direct involvement with or in UKBLM.



Her statement doesn't distance her. It defines the fact that BLM is a fraction of her focus on the overall subject.

It's not about what it "looks like" she's saying (unless you're considering studying journalism, where projection of the journo's opinion onto the subject tends to happen often), it's what any basic *textual analysis *tells you* she's saying.

*Freshman soc-sci technique where you break down a text/speech via its context, to arrive at the most likely meaning.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> My mistake.



There's nothing wrong with being passionate about a subject, so no apology needed.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> As an aside, the utility of "black" as a descriptor was pretty much deliberately crushed via government "race relations" policy that basically told all the constituent communities "we're going to fund you on the basis of your community identities - as Jamaican and Pakistani and Cantonese and West African communities etc - not as a unified political voice", and the community leaders, such as some of them were, followed the money.



Yeah I'm aware of the funding stuff. However, my comments were made in the context of a conversation about its modern use having fallen out of favour with activitist types in more recent times because of its effect in erasing the voices and experiences of ethnically black ppl in favour of ethnically brown people. 

Some have a similar critique of the term poc. So now some black and brown people are using the terms black poc and nonblack poc as an attempt to mitigate that erasure.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> My impression was it was back in. Then again I might be mistaking the leftist twitter sphere and NUS politico echo chamber with reality, which are really quite distinct things.



There does seem to be a distinct attempt by those who favour identity politics as a template for governing debate, to use "black" as a short-cut to having to describe the diverse nature of BaME experience.

I've also encountered a couple of people - including a Goldsmiths alumnus  - using PoC not to denote all people of colour, but only people of Black British origin. WTF is that about?


----------



## sihhi (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Yeah but it wasn't a wee mistake, they actually implied that all the deaths in custody were of black and Asian.
> 
> Either keep to the figures for black and Asian or use all the figures and use it to head off accusations that you don't care about white lives etc
> 
> They literally went for the worst option, really stupid and counterproductive stuff, but then these are millennial politicos so everyone knows facts come second to showing how outraged you are.



'It' in my post refered to the IWCA facebook response. IWCA could have compared 7% to 10% not 12% to 10%.
Quite obviously, BLMUK are more sneaky, the video is quite clearly 'impact' first 'text' second.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Yeah I dont think that many non-ethnically black people are doing that as much as they were say 30 years ago. I imagine that any non black poc claiming political blackness at Goldsmiths would be shot down savagely.
> 
> I mean look what happened to Malia Bouattia when she got elected as president of the NUS and it was claimed she was the first black woman to hold that office. Of course that wasn't helped by the fact that she had previously been the officer for black students.
> 
> Any nonblack poc claiming political blackness will get dragged.



This is bizarre, I remember only a few years ago people involved in student politics being accused of showing insufficient solidarity for refusing to take the view that you can apparently get 'shot down savagely' and 'dragged' for now. How unwelcoming this sort of culture of shaming for not being up on this month's activist/academic must appear to most people, good for others who are into sadomasochism I suppose.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

J Ed said:


> This is bizarre, I remember only a few years ago people involved in student politics being accused of showing insufficient solidarity for refusing to take the view that you can apparently get 'shot down savagely' and 'dragged' for now. How unwelcoming this sort of culture of shaming for not being up on this month's activist/academic must appear to most people, good for others who are into sadomasochism I suppose.



It's student politics, a playground for idiots and careerists. Remember the NUS refused to pass a motion condemning IS and their persecution of religious minorities, it got voted down as Islamophobic... They also wanted gay men to be no longer considered oppressed. 

A whole other world.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

J Ed said:


> This is bizarre, I remember only a few years ago people involved in student politics being accused of showing insufficient solidarity for refusing to take the view that you can apparently get 'shot down savagely' and 'dragged' for now. How unwelcoming this sort of culture of shaming for not being up on this month's activist/academic must appear to most people, good for others who are into sadomasochism I suppose.



Political blackness was a 'good thing' in the 80s it brought a lot of people together and there was a lot of solidarity that came from that. But you get situations for example where there is a panel discussion and a representative has been chosen to talk about stuff that effects ethnically black ppl and a politically black (brown) person with be speaking. This is how brown ppl benefit from politically blackness at the expense of actual black ppl. I've already covered this earlier in the thread tbf. But maybe you missed the context?

Anyone who erases black voices to push themselves forward should be ashamed imo.

I think there is a problem in some activist circles with shaming and overly moralistic holier than thou attitudes etc but I don't think the political blackness example is a good one.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 6, 2016)

Anju said:


> BLM is a movement specifically addressing the issues facing black people. To bring up migrant deaths at sea in this context is an insult to every non black death in the same circumstances. Clue is in the name.
> .



Logically, doesn't this mean you think BLM is an insult to every non black death at the hands of the police, eg: Ian Tomlinson or Harry Stanley?

I'd disagree personally.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Yeah I dont think that many non-ethnically black people are doing that as much as they were say 30 years ago. I imagine that any non black poc claiming political blackness at Goldsmiths would be shot down savagely.
> 
> I mean *look what happened to Malia Bouattia when she got elected as president of the NUS and it was claimed she was the first black woman to hold that office*. Of course that wasn't helped by the fact that she had previously been the officer for black students.
> 
> Any nonblack poc claiming political blackness will get dragged.



Can you explain a bit more ? I didn't know there was a backlash against Malia Bouattia for calling herself a black woman.
Really interested because when I saw pictures of her in the news I did secretly react with WTF she's not black,  but thought that this judgement of mine was dodgy and a bit shameful.
I look a little bit similar to her, the colouring and the hair, but the only place I know of where I'd be considered definitely not a white person is Stormfront, far as I know.
Should she not have been able to hold the position of 'officer for black students' or should that post be renamed do you think? All quite confusing.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Turk Cypriots are the Ulster loyalists of the med, only in Goldsmiths or on Stormfront (as you rightfully point out) would she be considered black. Even then Stormfront posters might take issue at such a binary and unscientific set of racial categories 

But the thing to remember in all this is that it's just very cynical posturing, no one really thought she was black.


----------



## Ole (Aug 6, 2016)

Isn't Malia Bouattia an Algerian Berber?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Can you explain a bit more ? I didn't know there was a backlash against Malia Bouattia for calling herself a black woman.
> Really interested because when I saw pictures of her in the news I did secretly react with WTF she's not black,  but thought that this judgement of mine was dodgy and a bit shameful.
> I look a little bit similar to her, the colouring and the hair, but the only place I know of where I'd be considered definitely not a white person is Strormfront, far as I know.
> Should she not have been able to hold the position of 'officer for black students' or should that post be renamed do you think? All quite confusing.




I'm not sure Malia did ever 'call' herself a black woman directly. But as she held office for black students and then when she got elected as president she was widely reported as the first black woman president. There was lots of chatter online and lots of differing opinion as is to be expected. But a lot of ppl seemed to be really wtf about it. There was an article in the new statement I think which took issue with her and iding her as black.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

Small but perfectly formed march in Tottenham in memory of mark duggan but also commemorating cynthia jarrett, smiley culture and others who have died at the hands of the police. Among the placards was one carried by one of the rally speakers demanding justice for ian tomlinson.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> I'm not sure Malia did ever 'call' herself a black woman directly. But as she held office for black students and then when she got elected as president she was widely reported as the first black woman president. There was lots of chatter online and lots of differing opinion as is to be expected. But a lot of ppl seemed to be really wtf about it. There was an article in the new statement I think which took issue with her and iding her as black.


Yep, I just found that NS article. Malia Bouattia and the murky world of political blackness It does clarify somewhat what the problem is and makes clear that when she said she was the first black woman NUS president she was using 'political blackness', at least in the eyes of the writer.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Ole said:


> Isn't Malia Bouattia an Algerian Berber?



Yeah, my mistake I thought we were talking about "white tears" Bahar Mustafa who made a big deal over not being white.


----------



## Ole (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Yeah, my mistake I thought we were talking about "white tears" Bahar Mustafa who made a big deal over not being white.


No drama.

Berbers from North Africa are a rather racially mixed group of people in any case. Many of them would be considered black in many parts of the world. If Malia identifies as black, I'm very much inclined to take her at her word. That New Statesman piece looks very clumsy in effectively saying that since she identifies as Algerian, she can't be considered black.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Ole said:


> If Malia identifies as black, I'm very much inclined to take her at her word. That New Statesman piece looks very clumsy in effectively saying that since she identifies as Algerian, she can't be considered black.


And Rachel Dozenal? It's confusing partly because the 'self identifies as' stuff is so key to identity & student politics.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 6, 2016)

This week in the New Statesman's racial science edition


Are Berbers white?
Adventures in Woke Phrenology: We measure our unpaid interns' heads


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Ole said:


> No drama.
> 
> Berbers from North Africa are a rather racially mixed group of people in any case. Many of them would be considered black in many parts of the world. If Malia identifies as black, I'm very much inclined to take her at her word. That New Statesman piece looks very clumsy in effectively saying that since she identifies as Algerian, she can't be considered black.



Well she's African. 

But the thing people don't talk about in this taxonomy of oppression is the fact her da works for an international management consultancy.

Of course her being non white means she's far more in common with a black kid from Tower Hamlets, than some white kid who grew up in a sink estate in Hull...


----------



## Ole (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> And Rachel Dozenal? It's confusing partly because the 'self identifies as' stuff is so key to identity & student politics.



If Rachel Dolezal was a Berber and not lily white with fake tan, I'd be inclined likewise. I don't think you can totally invalidate the very idea of self-identification with regard to race because of a few loons in the world like Dolezal, but it's fair enough to bring it up.



J Ed said:


> This week in the New Statesman's racial science edition
> 
> 
> Are Berbers white?
> Adventures in Woke Phrenology: We measure our unpaid interns' heads



FFS!


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Stormfront is really helpful sometimes .


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

how is bahar mustafa white?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

dialectician said:


> how is bahar mustafa white?


Is she black?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

well obviously not that wasn't my fucking point ffs.

I mean I don't give two shits about student politics. same bollocks, different faces. So if she identified as politically black then yeah that's dodgy. But as far as I am aware she wasn't racialised to be white.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Lol how is that even a question


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

dialectician said:


> well obviously not that wasn't my fucking point ffs.


What then, not black but self identifies as non-white? She calls herself BME. I don't know, obviously.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

I thought she was brown.

CC poptyping - can you shed some light?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

dialectician said:


> I thought she was brown.


Her skin looks kind of a very pale pink, like Dulux 'Jasmine Shimmer' TM but that's not the point apparently.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

yes it is not the point. ugh.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Sorry but a Turk Cypriot giving it the big one about the white man, someone needs to check their Ottoman imperial privilege.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

dialectician said:


> But as far as I am aware *she wasn't racialised to be white.*


what does that mean?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> what does that mean?



Self-evident.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Sorry but a Turk Cypriot giving it the big one about the white man, someone needs to check their Ottoman imperial privilege.



Well everyone gives it a big one about the white man. It means jack shit these days. it's the most liberal thing you can say.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

progressive whites lol.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

dialectician said:


> Well everyone gives it a big one about the white man. It means jack shit these days. it's the most liberal thing you can say.



True dat.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

dialectician said:


> Self-evident.


Not self evident to me. You said that "she wasn't racialised to be white" so that makes her not white.
Racialised basically means having your identity prescribed and defined for you by the dominant group, being defined as and made to feel Other?
By those terms I (as a child of non english speaking immigrants and the only jew at my churchy primary school - made to sit alone in the corridor whilst they did Jesus-related assembly every morning) that experience would probably, if I was at Goldsmiths now, qualify me as non-white. But fuck me if I'd ever lay claim to that, I'm well aware of my actual privilege in this society as a person walking around in pale pinkish coloured skin.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

What a wonderful thread this has turned into


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Not self evident to me. You said that "she wasn't racialised to be white" so that makes her not white.
> Racialised basically means having your identity prescribed and defined for you by the dominant group, being defined as and made to feel Other? By those terms I (as a child of non english speaking immigrants and the only jew at my churchy primary school - made to sit alone in the corridor whilst they did Jesus-related assemble every morning) that experience would probably, if I was at Goldsmiths now, qualify me as non-white. But fuck me if I'd ever lay claim to that, I'm too well aware of my actual privilege in this society as a person walking around in pale pinkish coloured skin.



I don't know. I don't know BM well enough to say. and colours are abstractions to me, I have no conception of what black and white actually mean as I was born totally blind. Even though I'm officially a turkish citizen I have brown skin (so they say) and I'm ethnically Kurdish. i dunno i don't understand visual race politics. I'm supposed to be brown and white at the same time? I don't get it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

dialectician said:


> I don't know. I don't know BM well enough to say. and colours are abstractions to me, I have no conception of what black and white actually mean as I was born totally blind. Even though I'm officially a turkish citizen I have brown skin (so they say) and I'm ethnically Kurdish. i dunno i don't understand visual race politics. I'm supposed to be brown and white at the same time? I don't get it?


Beige


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Beige


beige is out, I think it's called bisquite now, or hessian.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> beige is out, I think it's called bisquite now, or hessian.


Fucking euphemisms


----------



## J Ed (Aug 6, 2016)

dialectician said:


> I don't know. I don't know BM well enough to say. and colours are abstractions to me, I have no conception of what black and white actually mean as I was born totally blind. Even though I'm officially a turkish citizen I have brown skin (so they say) and I'm ethnically Kurdish. i dunno i don't understand visual race politics. I'm supposed to be brown and white at the same time? I don't get it?



Ime, regardless of ethnicity, the idea of political blackness is confusing to everyone who hasn't already been inducted into the lexicology and rituals of student politics.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Ime, regardless of ethnicity, the idea of political blackness is confusing to everyone who hasn't already been inducted into the lexicology and rituals of student politics.


Yeh you only find out once you're a past master of your student lodge


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Ime, regardless of ethnicity, the idea of political blackness is confusing to everyone who hasn't already been inducted into the lexicology and rituals of student politics.



Yay I'm not what they call mixed race either. so what. My family are a jumble of ethnicities, as is common with people from the south east/near the Syrian border. This is why i just can't get involved in most of this sort of activism. one person says I'm white. another says I'm brown. meanwhile I'm thinking about how to feed myself. real nice.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

It's a giant rabbit hole / ants nest is this. There's degrees to be had in "whiteness studies" .
Whiteness studies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> It's a giant rabbit hole / ants nest is this. There's degrees to be had in "whiteness studies" .
> Whiteness studies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Can't we just fight for full communism?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

dialectician said:


> Can't we just fight for full communism?


Good idea. Better chance of victory there than of resolving to everyone's satisfaction what colour whatshername is.


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 6, 2016)

Hey guys! Sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday like I said i would before corrie. Something came up, you know how it is! I had to water the garden and an old friend popped round and I sort of forgot to get back to you all, sorry bout that!  But listen you all seem to get very worked up about stuff you post on here, Violet and Pickman seem to be the main guys who set the pace on this board and I'm sure they are really nice genuine guys, but hey! They do seem to be so angry! 

I know, I know! There are a lot of bad people out there doing horrible things to people, and i feel for them I really do. People seem to be so angry about everything! Why is that? You know I'm sure the police don't mean to be bad and horrible to people, but they do have a hard job y'know. Nobody loves them, everybody hates them, but they are only doing a job, same as the rest of us! just trying to earn a crust to feed their families! They ar'nt aliens you know they are just people like you an me, and sometimes they get stuff wrong!

You know what i think would help? I think we all ought to have a big meeting, where we all get together an talk about our problems with each other! i think we could sort it all out if we all just loved each other and agreed we are all humans black, white, gay, trans and every other thing!

Love will do it you know! I really believe that! 

Peace an love to you all here!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> Hey guys! Sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday like I said i would before corrie. Something came up, you know how it is! I had to water the garden and an old friend popped round and I sort of forgot to get back to you all, sorry bout that!  But listen you all seem to get very worked up about stuff you post on here, Violet and Pickman seem to be the main guys who set the pace on this board and I'm sure they are really nice genuine guys, but hey! They do seem to be so angry!
> 
> I know, I know! There are a lot of bad people out there doing horrible things to people, and i feel for them I really do. People seem to be so angry about everything! Why is that? You know I'm sure the police don't mean to be bad and horrible to people, but they do have a hard job y'know. Nobody loves them, everybody hates them, but they are only doing a job, same as the rest of us! just trying to earn a crust to feed their families! They ar'nt aliens you know they are just people like you an me, and sometimes they get stuff wrong!
> 
> ...


ViolentPanda does get irate if you call him violet


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> Hey guys! Sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday like I said i would before corrie. Something came up, you know how it is! I had to water the garden and an old friend popped round and I sort of forgot to get back to you all, sorry bout that!  But listen you all seem to get very worked up about stuff you post on here, Violet and Pickman seem to be the main guys who set the pace on this board and I'm sure they are really nice genuine guys, but hey! They do seem to be so angry!
> 
> I know, I know! There are a lot of bad people out there doing horrible things to people, and i feel for them I really do. People seem to be so angry about everything! Why is that? You know I'm sure the police don't mean to be bad and horrible to people, but they do have a hard job y'know. Nobody loves them, everybody hates them, but they are only doing a job, same as the rest of us! just trying to earn a crust to feed their families! They ar'nt aliens you know they are just people like you an me, and sometimes they get stuff wrong!
> 
> ...



how much MDMA are you on?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 6, 2016)




----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

can people get banned for intemperate use of exclamation marks ?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> You know what i think would help? I think we all ought to have a big meeting, where we all get together an talk about our problems with each other! i think we could sort it all out if we all just loved each other and agreed we are all humans black, white, gay, trans and every other thing!


I'm in. Lets do this thing. Tuesday evening ok for everyone?


----------



## Chrispeptide (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> I'm in. Lets do this thing. Tuesday evening ok for everyone?



Ha!  i know your joshing with me. Tuesday would be good, but it's maybe a bit soon y'know? i may seem a bit optimistic, but i really believe it could be done, don't you? We are all the same, jus human beings trying to get through life best way we can. if we could all not hate so much it would be sooo much better wouldn't it?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> Ha!  i know your joshing with me. Tuesday would be good, but it's maybe a bit soon y'know? i may seem a bit optimistic, but i really believe it could be done, don't you? We are all the same, jus human beings trying to get through life best way we can. if we could all not hate so much it would be sooo much better wouldn't it?



Lay off the drugs mate.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> Ha!  i know your joshing with me. Tuesday would be good, but it's maybe a bit soon y'know? i may seem a bit optimistic, but i really believe it could be done, don't you? We are all the same, jus human beings trying to get through life best way we can. if we could all not hate so much it would be sooo much better wouldn't it?


Yes it would it'd be loads better.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 6, 2016)

Oh come off it.


----------



## Cid (Aug 6, 2016)

Chrispeptide said:


> Ha!  i know your joshing with me. Tuesday would be good, but it's maybe a bit soon y'know? i may seem a bit optimistic, but i really believe it could be done, don't you? We are all the same, jus human beings trying to get through life best way we can. if we could all not hate so much it would be sooo much better wouldn't it?



You're all about bonding eh?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Oh come off it.


I don't miss the comedowns that's for sure.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> ViolentPanda does get irate if you call him violet



I do, but then I think what a thoroughgoing goat-licking wankshaft Chrispeptide is, and I can't be arsed to get irate at such a no-mark shitcunt.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> what a thoroughgoing goat-licking wankshaft Chrispeptide is, and I can't be arsed to get irate at such a no-mark shitcunt.


That is completely unnecessary. You're a total downer man.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> That is completely unnecessary. You're a total downer man.




Fuck off, hippy!


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck off, hippy!


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


>


----------



## iona (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble why did you post a picture of a black woman on ugly mugs earlier this year and claim it was a photo of you?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 6, 2016)

iona said:


> bimble why did you post a picture of a black woman on ugly mugs earlier this year and claim it was a photo of you?


The one with massive dreads?


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Just thinking about the IWCA piece, it's very scathing, is there history there? 

Alot of the BLM UK media faces are Oxbridge, have they ran across each other in Oxford?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

iona said:


> bimble why did you post a picture of a black woman on ugly mugs earlier this year and claim it was a photo of you?


!
That was a picture of me, with a 'black' hairstyle from last summer. . Is that what you are talking about, the hairstyle? Could do you a few choice paragraphs on the politics of having that nylon hairdo for a while but did you think I looked like a black woman?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> The one with massive dreads?


Not remotely dreads, they were twists.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Not remotely dreads, they were twists.


Ok. But I can confirm that that picture was of Bimble. She has big hair.

Iirc, she even mentioned that hairdo as "culturally appropriative".


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Ok. But I can confirm that that picture was of Bimble. She has big hair.
> 
> Iirc, she even mentioned that hairdo as "culturally appropriative".


I was in paroxysms of angst about doing it, I googled the hell out of 'cultural appropriation + hair' before buying the 5 packets of nylon. 
Had been wanting to do it for years. That sort of style means that you do not get dreads, you don't need to comb it, it's really low maintenance compared to the natural state of affairs.
The thing that surprised me most (apart form the horrible itchiness of the first few days and the sheer weight of it upon your head) was that in the weeks of wearing it I got not one negative reaction on the street (south london), I got compliments from bunches of black schoolgirls even, which was nice but weird.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> That is completely unnecessary. You're a total downer man.


----------



## iona (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> !
> That was a picture of me, with a 'black' hairstyle from last summer. . Is that what you are talking about, the hairstyle? Could do you a few choice paragraphs on the politics of having that nylon hairdo for a while but did you think I looked like a black woman?



The photo I saw was of a black woman taking a selfie, and you've posted on this thread saying you're white and describing your appearance. 

Sorry, not trying to get into arguments about definitions and cultural appropriation here and if I've somehow got something mixed up I apologise. People do lie about all kinds of shit on the internet but maybe I'm just being paranoid.


----------



## sihhi (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> The thing is that there have been different groups working on these issues for years, BLM have swooped in and just seized the limelight on all them cos they have a sexy brand from the US.
> 
> A few of my friends know people involved and are very cynical about them, most being full time activists and professional politicos or wannabes atleast.
> 
> I think BLM UK will be much better at launching some media careers than it will be seriously taking on deaths in police custody.



How precisely have they swooped in? Have other groups been blocking approach routes to Heathrow at the same time?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

iona said:


> The photo I saw was of a black woman taking a selfie, and you've posted on this thread saying you're white and describing your appearance.
> 
> Sorry, not trying to get into arguments about definitions and cultural appropriation here and if I've somehow got something mixed up I apologise. People do lie about all kinds of shit on the internet but maybe I'm just being paranoid.


What a world.  I guess i self identify as white, because my skin is a pale pinkish-yellowy colour (unless I've been on holiday) and because I benefit greatly from that pinkishness.
eg) I used to be a druggie, and carried illegal things with me all the time, for years. On flights, in the street, everywhere, and I have never not once been searched.
I never did do business only personal but carried class A substances into america for example, even brought a little bit of weed back from jamaica to england, no problem at all.

Or maybe that's nothing to do with my skin colour at all maybe it's just my friendly respectable middle class face.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

sihhi said:


> How precisely have they swooped in? Have other groups been blocking approach routes to Heathrow at the same time?



I meant in terms of their everything but the kitchen sink approach.

I wouldn't get to hung up on the form of the protest, it's just stuntism really for building their brand.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2016)

dialectician said:


> I thought she was brown.
> 
> CC poptyping - can you shed some light?



Yeah I thought she was brown too mate. Out and about atm so will have to come back to this later x


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 6, 2016)

Can't wait


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Can't wait


You need to get out more pa


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 6, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Yeah I thought she was brown too mate. Out and about atm so will have to come back to this later x



No worries, i need to eat and head to another party - lots going on this weekend.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> You need to get out more pa


I am out, son. Curry in Holloway. Just nipped outside for a bifta.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> I am out, son. Curry in Holloway. Just nipped outside for a bifta.


For a what? I thought you were all hypnotically cured.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> For a what? I thought you were all hypnotically cured.


For a BIFTA


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> For a what? I thought you were all hypnotically cured.


Joints don't count. I do have some herbal baccy at home for that very purpose but have to admit that this one was made with Drum.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 6, 2016)

A BLM activist Babera Ntumy told C4 news this evening that "thousands of people have died in police custody". As she was not challenged by the presenter Cathy Newman [edit], the viewer was left with the impression that a) thousands have been murdered b) and those thousands were black.
'This is a crisis...etc'


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> A BLM activist Babera Ntumy told C4 news this evening that *"thousands of people have died in police custody"*. As she was not challenged by the presenter Cathy Murphy, the viewer was left with the impression that a) thousands have been murdered b) and those thousands were black.
> 'This is a crisis...etc'


Without any restricted time-frame, do you doubt that is true?

e2a : Newman?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

This wrangling of statistics is a distraction/ sideshow. That "white lives are worth more" looks blindingly obvious, be that per hour or per job application or per police inquiry into a death whatever. Where is this not true?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> This wrangling of statistics is a distraction/ sideshow. That "white lives" are "worth more" looks blindly obvious, be that per hour or per job application or per police inquiry into a death whatever. Where is this not true?


I worry about why folk might feel so determined to argue the statistical toss on this issue.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Without any restricted time-frame, do you doubt that is true?



Considering the crisis is meant to be happening now, how far back would like to go?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Considering the crisis is meant to be happening now, how far back would like to go?


How far back have you got an appetite for?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Considering the crisis is meant to be happening now, how far back would like to go?





> *meant*


Not a good look Joe.


----------



## Ole (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Without any restricted time-frame, do you doubt that is true?
> 
> e2a : Newman?



Thousands of black people? 

Given that 145 BAME deaths have occurred in police custody in the last 27 years (Inquest numbers), it is extremely unlikely that the number is even 1,000 in all of recorded history, let alone 'thousands'.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Funny how we are deeply concerned with the truth and stats when they are rightly used to debunk right wing agendas but apparently when it comes to our own issues it's all fine and we'll to talk utter bollocks, well cos the cause is justified. Pity that shit doesn't wash with people who aren't ideological headbangers and so ends up being a tad counter productive when people cop on.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Hyperbole and emotional haranguing does not a radical or meaningful politics make.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Not a good look Joe.



Carelessly tossing out figures with no basis in fact and expect it to end positively is the 'look' anyone other than a dilettante would work hard to avoid.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Fuck me, is it that hare to square the fact that yes racism is a problem, a big one in many different areas and yet engaging in what amounts to lying doesn't do anyone any favours, quite the opposite really.


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## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

Ole said:


> *Thousands of black people?*
> 
> Given that 145 BAME deaths have occurred in police custody in the last 27 years (Inquest numbers), it is extremely unlikely that the number is even 1,000 in all of recorded history, let alone 'thousands'.


According to Joe's quote from C4 News, that is not what Ntumy said.


----------



## Ole (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Funny how we are deeply concerned with the truth and stats when they are rightly used to debunk right wing agendas but apparently when it comes to our own issues it's all fine and we'll to talk utter bollocks, well cos the cause is justified. Pity that shit doesn't wash with people who aren't ideological headbangers and so ends up being a tad counter productive when people cop on.



Quite... you should know it's time for a rethink when you are arguing against the notion of truth for political reasons.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Carelessly tossing out figures with no basis in fact and expect it to end positively is the 'look' anyone other than a dilettante would work hard to avoid.


I was referring to your use of the word *'meant', *and I suspect you know that.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I worry about why folk might feel so determined to argue the statistical toss on this issue.



If it were a matter of a few percent or an otherwise excusable mistake I'd agree but this goes beyond bad stats into downright lying and anyone who actually gives a shit about deaths in police custody should be quite pissed off at what they've done.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I was referring to your use of the word *'meant', *and I suspect you know that.


you think it is a permanent crisis?


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

it'd be great if after this protest, BLM matters could move on to the fact that black teenagers are knifing to death other black teenagers almost daily in London. If i was the father of a teenage black boy, I'd more scared of his peers carrying knives than the police. both subjects need looking at, fighting against, if we are looking at the problem of young black men being murdered.





bimble said:


> This wrangling of statistics is a distraction/ sideshow. That "white lives are worth more" looks blindingly obvious, be that per hour or per job application or per police inquiry into a death whatever. Where is this not true?


Another horrendous stat is the rate of black teens killing other black teens in London. Walked past another crime scene today, young lad stabbed to death in Peckham.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

Pickman didn't you get the memo, your militancy and sincerity are measures in hyperbole these days.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Pickman didn't you get the memo, your militancy and sincerity are measures in hyperbole these days.


Sounds good, revol, but means fuck all.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you think it is a permanent crisis?


Does questioning the appropriateness of saying that the crisis is _*meant *_to be now imply that, then?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> if we are looking at the problem of young black men being murdered.
> Another horrendous stat is the rate of black teens killing other black teens in London. Walked past another crime scene today, young lad stabbed to death in Peckham.


Yes, i know. And maybe there is a sort of basic economics at play, re the police and their treatment of young black men lying dead on a pavement in south london. as in, there''s a lot of them about so they are cheap, and their lives matter less.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Does questioning the appropriateness of saying that the crisis is _*meant *_to be now imply that, then?


when i put ? at the end of a sentence i am asking a question not submitting an assertion.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I was referring to your use of the word *'meant', *and I suspect you know that.



I am prepared to justify "meant". Can you justify "crisis"?


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yes, i know. And maybe there is a sort of basic economics at play, re the police and their treatment of young black men lying dead on a pavement in south london. as in, there''s a lot of them about so they are cheap, and their lives matter less.


The police are no doubt racist. Black teens killing other black teens so regularly is another matter that just seems normal now. And its fucking awful and I don't see anyone doing much, other than the usual which doesn't seem to be working. I speak to many parents in my gang ridden area, and the fear is palatable. I sometimes wish that were marches, demos about this along with the blm stuff.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

If there were marches for more resources to tackle gangs, id go on it. There something horrible about worrying your kid is going to get knifed when going for a pint of milk.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

Blm could incorporate the teenage homicide thing...as in, why is more not being done to tackle this? Where is the money to deal with it. Is it because our lives are cheaper to you?


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## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

A few minutes after the forensic tent thing and the body was removed from my street, a small bunch of teenagers came by and filmed themselves posing for selfies on the spot, and played music and spat on the ground exactly where he lay dying. Yes, if resources exist which could make gangs become pointless and unneccesary then great, please use all of my tax dollars for that initiative. I think that the need for this sort of allegiace and meaning goes far deeper than lottery / state funding can reach.


----------



## sihhi (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> I meant in terms of their everything but the kitchen sink approach.
> 
> I wouldn't get to hung up on the form of the protest, it's just stuntism really for building their brand.



Can you explain what you mean by the "everything but the kitchen sink approach" is that what non-violent obstruction should be called? 

OK "the form". Every year the UFFC holds a march in central London to little attention or impact, this was - to some extent - something different, wasn't it?


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## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> I am prepared to justify "meant". Can you justify "crisis"?


Aside from the obvious point that any death at the hands of the state is a crisis, the data on deaths caused by the police does not indicate that the crisis has ended, does it?


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## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> A few minutes after the forensic tent thing and the body was removed from my street, a small bunch of teenagers came by and filmed themselves posing for selfies on the spot, and played music and spat on the ground exactly where he lay dying. Yes, if resources exist which could make gangs become pointless and unneccesary then great, please use all of my tax dollars for that initiative. I think that the need for this sort of allegiace and meaning goes far deeper than lottery funding can reach.


Resources directed at this could make a big difference Imo...combined with a less racist society, more opportunities, better policing..
Throw masses of resources at and the endless knifing might end...instead we have skint services, a racist police force, and a sick gang culture. Its one of London's greatest problems.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Aside from the obvious point that any death at the hands of the state is a crisis, the data on deaths caused by the police does not indicate that the crisis has ended, does it?


No, deaths at the hands of the state are business as usual: for the state.


----------



## sihhi (Aug 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> If there were marches for more resources to tackle gangs, id go on it. There something horrible about worrying your kid is going to get knifed when going for a pint of milk.



Local marches on these lines happen fairly frequently.
In my area there was the haringey peace alliance - now defunct website http://www.peacealliance.org.uk - which held authorised marches for funding to stop gangs and their steady violence.
But nothing much can succeed because the power of those imposing the austerity is so great. As a result the renegades (using the IWCA terminology, dealing with the renegades) only grow in number.


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## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Two teenaged boys stabbed to death _this week _in south east london. And it never made the news, not like that 'wife of an american professor' did in russel square. 
Just pointing at the police is not really quite good enough is it?
Unless you think that the police is who has the final call on how much black lives matter, what they are worth.
Two south-east London teenagers killed in knife attacks in same week


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Two dead teenaged boys stabbed to death _this week just in _in south east london.
> Just pointing at the police is not really quite good enough is it?
> Unless you think that the police is who has the final call on how much black lives matter.
> Two south-east London teenagers killed in knife attacks in same week



Its amazing in our area if we get through a month without at LEAST one teen getting stabbed. The impulse is to run to the shires, like all the others. But I wont.


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## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Its amazing in our area if we get through a month without at LEAST one teen getting stabbed. The impulse is to run to the shires, like all the others. But I wont.


I seriously considered the shires / escape for a few months after being eyeball-confronted with what is going on here, but ye me too I won't, but if I had children I very maybe would leg it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What we were shown:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the cropped version has intimidation staring. The zoomed out version looks like more of a thousand yard stare, the one I imagine one wears when burying your kid. De Menezes was the eye opener tbh, after that I've read back and watched happen again and again. Something rotten in the state of britain


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## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> the cropped version has intimidation staring. The zoomed out version looks like more of a thousand yard stare, the one I imagine one wears when burying your kid. De Menezes was the eye opener tbh, after that I've read back and watched happen again and again. Something rotten in the state of britain


The best thing the internet could do is destroy the right wing monopoly of our press.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Aside from the obvious point that any death at the hands of the state is a crisis, the data on deaths caused by the police does not indicate that the crisis has ended, does it?



There is a crisis 'a time of extreme trouble or danger' in America, in terms of police shooting unarmed black men. Another one today. Shot in the back running away. Deliberately killed in broad daylight. On camera. Now some people want to believe we are at a similar 'crucial stage or turning point' in this country.  That the situations are exactly the same, or in a weak moment comparable at least. In order to do this - they lie. That is what I _meant_ by 'meant'.


----------



## revol68 (Aug 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> The police are no doubt racist. Black teens killing other black teens so regularly is another matter that just seems normal now. And its fucking awful and I don't see anyone doing much, other than the usual which doesn't seem to be working. I speak to many parents in my gang ridden area, and the fear is palatable. I sometimes wish that were marches, demos about this along with the blm stuff.



Sorry mate, the left has no boiler plate response to such issues, so pipe down. ￼


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> There is a crisis 'a time of extreme trouble or danger' in America, in terms of police shooting unarmed black men. Another one today. Shot in the back running away. Deliberately killed in broad daylight. On camera. Now some people want to believe we are at a similar 'crucial stage or turning point' in this country.  That the situations are exactly the same, or in a weak moment comparable at least. In order to do this - they lie. That is what I _meant_ by 'meant'.


Who is lying?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

Sod all that. Duggan looks like he was a proper bad man, well dodgy the whole caboodle - and so? What is this nonsense of having to argue that either he was 'whiter than white' or else he deserved to be shot dead unaccountably & unarmed by the police. Nonsense.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

Exactly. Its not about his character. He could have been posing with ten Ak47s the day before, the fact is he was shot dead unarmed.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Exactly. Its not about his character. He could have been posing with ten Ak47s the day before, the fact is he was shot dead unarmed.


the miracle gun in a sock some distance away. Behind railings iirc Duggan was no saint clearly but this was a _proper _fuck up


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> the miracle gun in a sock some distance away. Behind railings iirc Duggan was no saint clearly but this was a _proper _fuck up


it's just trigger happy thuggery. the only justification i can see of shooting the target is if said target is popping off shots at you or others. even then surely you shoot to main. they just shot him dead whilst he was sat in his car.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 6, 2016)

So the bloke had a gun in a sock hidden round the corner?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Who is lying?


In launching the initiative - drawing on a comparison with the US when there is no equivalence- the activists in question had to begin by lying to themselves and then each other. After that just being spectacularly careless with figures in public probably doesn't seem such a big deal.


----------



## kenny g (Aug 6, 2016)

The Met Police were introducing a shoot to kill policy. Massive uprisings stopped it from continuing and re-enforced the need for "community" policing.


----------



## kenny g (Aug 6, 2016)

At the end of the day the primary people responsible for teens killing teens are the teens doing the killing. Trying to pretend otherwise is not part of the solution.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> it's just trigger happy thuggery. the only justification i can see of shooting the target is if said target is popping off shots at you or others. even then surely you shoot to main. they just shot him dead whilst he was sat in his car.


taxi
Mark Duggan inquest: Minicab driver 'feared attack' in police operation - BBC News

note the use of the cropped photo again


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

kenny g said:


> At the end of the day the primary people responsible for teens killing teens are the teens doing the killing. Trying to pretend otherwise is not part of the solution.


Yes. And so, what do you think might be part of the solution?


----------



## kenny g (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yes. And so, what do you think might be part of the solution?



As I am a white middle class male involved in no criminality whatsoever whose knowledge of these matters is extremely limited I think any speculation is best avoided.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

kenny g said:


> As I am a white middle class male involved in no criminality whatsoever whose knowledge of these matters is extremely limited I think any speculation is best avoided.


Yep, that is exactly the attitude I got from the policeman who came round very very belatedly to ask if I'd seen anything the day that child got murdered just here outside my white middle class window. None of my business, it's some black teenaged gang stuff you don't want to poke that hornets nest best left alone etc. Fair enough.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

kenny g said:


> At the end of the day the primary people responsible for teens killing teens are the teens doing the killing. Trying to pretend otherwise is not part of the solution.


bit reductive ken. no man is an island. but then i don't think "society" is _totally _to blame either. plenty of people grow up in desperate circumstances but don't knife fellow kids they went to school with. there's other factors. all sorts of complex processes at play. i do believe social alienation and a feeling of hopelessness is probably a major factor, though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

kenny g said:


> As I am a white middle class male involved in no criminality whatsoever whose knowledge of these matters is extremely limited I think any speculation is best avoided.


I do not know what you are doing on urban then, as speculation's what we do best


----------



## xenon (Aug 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> it's just trigger happy thuggery. the only justification i can see of shooting the target is if said target is popping off shots at you or others. even then surely you shoot to main. they just shot him dead whilst he was sat in his car.



 Disagree on the minor point.  If someone is armed, popping off shots, shoot to kill them.  There is no  shoot to mame unless you miss.


----------



## xenon (Aug 6, 2016)

kenny g said:


> At the end of the day the primary people responsible for teens killing teens are the teens doing the killing. Trying to pretend otherwise is not part of the solution.



 I think this is quite obvious to anyone with a functioning brain. I would then also ask them why is this happening?

 Anyway this is an unfortunate distraction.  The people that have sparked this protest  The sentiment behind it, were not shooting anyone.   The victims that is.


----------



## kenny g (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yep, that is exactly the attitude I got from the policeman who came round very very belatedly to ask if I'd seen anything the day that child got murdered just here outside my white middle class window. None of my business, it's some black teenaged gang stuff you don't want to poke that hornets nest best left alone etc. Fair enough.



So, my unwillingness to speculate on something I know absolutely nothing about deserves that kind of response? Absurd.


----------



## kenny g (Aug 6, 2016)

Of course I could come on here and pretend I am the fountain of all knowledge about this situation but that would be both patronising and bullshit. But then again, I could then patronise other posters from my position.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

kenny g said:


> So, my unwillingness to speculate on something I know absolutely nothing about deserves that kind of response? Absurd.


Have you ever considered informing yourself or do you prefer to remain in abject ignorance?


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

kenny g said:


> So, my unwillingness to speculate on something I know absolutely nothing about deserves that kind of response? Absurd.


Do you think my response was rude and unfair ? 
You're ok, it's the stabby black teenagers wot done it, unwise to speculate any further.


----------



## kenny g (Aug 6, 2016)

Perhaps the people who participated in the violence deserve a voice more than you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

kenny g said:


> Perhaps the people who participated in the violence deserve a voice more than you?


And there was me thinking you said you don't do speculation


----------



## smokedout (Aug 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> it'd be great if after this protest, BLM matters could move on to the fact that black teenagers are knifing to death other black teenagers almost daily in London.



since we're discussing the truth



> London's murder rate is up 20 per cent this year, with a significant rise in the number of teenage killings.
> 
> So far there have been 112 homicides in the capital compared with 93 last year, of which 19 teenagers have been killed, compared with 11 in 2014.
> 
> ...



Murder rate in London 'soars by 20 per cent'


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

ok, i got that wrong. it just felt like it, perhaps because the headlines catch my eye it feels too regularly. but you're right, i was way off.

19 is more than one a month, though. which is still horrifying.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> it'd be great if after this protest, BLM matters could move on to the fact that black teenagers are knifing to death other black teenagers almost daily in London. If i was the father of a teenage black boy, I'd more scared of his peers carrying knives than the police. both subjects need looking at, fighting against, if we are looking at the problem of young black men being murdered.
> Another horrendous stat is the rate of black teens killing other black teens in London. Walked past another crime scene today, young lad stabbed to death in Peckham.


Further to smokedout's post we are now past day 190 of 2016. Almost daily? Don't talk such tosh.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

smokedout said:


> since we're discussing the truth
> 
> 
> 
> Murder rate in London 'soars by 20 per cent'


Those figures are deaths and are nothing compared to the stabbed / shot but survived ones.
It is a constant unseen warfare going on here in this one of the richest cities in the world which white middle class people like me don't remotely understand and almost never get to see or hear about.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> In launching the initiative - drawing on a comparison with the US when there is no equivalence- the activists in question had to begin by lying to themselves and then each other. After that just being spectacularly careless with figures in public probably doesn't seem such a big deal.


Who has drawn 'equivalence' with the US? Have BLMUK actually said what you say, or is that just projection?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> ok, i got that wrong. it just felt like it, perhaps because the headlines catch my eye it feels too regularly. but you're right, i was way off.
> 
> 19 is more than one a month, though. which is still horrifying.


Not all of them will be black teens killed by black teens, if it makes you feel any better


----------



## keybored (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Who has drawn 'equivalence' with the US? Have BLMUK actually said what you say, or is that just projection?


Doesn't need saying. It's the same as skateboarding, financial crises and hip-hop "music", American fads that we imitate but can't quite get right.


----------



## xenon (Aug 6, 2016)

Most murder victims of course killed by someone in their family, a partner. 

  ,


----------



## smokedout (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Those figures are deaths and are nothing compared to the stabbed / shot but survived ones.
> It is a constant unseen warfare going on here in this one of the richest cities in the world which white middle class people like me don't remotely understand and almost never get to see or hear about.



It's going on in every city, although violent crime is at historically low levels in the UK.  Thats not to say it shouldn't be taken seriously, but it's nothing new and it's absolutely not confined to black teenagers.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 6, 2016)

lee jasper on it. don't shoot the messenger.

‘Our failure can be read on the headstones of dead youth’


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2016)

keybored said:


> Doesn't need saying. It's the same as skateboarding, financial crises and hip-hop "music", American fads that we imitate but can't quite get right.


Fad.
Interesting thread, this.


----------



## bimble (Aug 6, 2016)

smokedout said:


> It's going on in every city, although violent crime is at historically low levels in the UK.  Thats not to say it shouldn't be taken seriously, but it's nothing new and it's absolutely not confined to black teenagers.


Google is not readily answering my query as to how many of the people murdered in the uk this past 12 months have been ..  non-white teenagers. My guess is a very high %.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 6, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> lee jasper on it. don't shoot the messenger.
> 
> ‘Our failure can be read on the headstones of dead youth’



Jasper's entire career is based on racialising things like this.  Glasgow has a comparable violent crime rate with London and a very low young black population.  Its not a race thing, or a black thing, its a bored skint angry young men thing.


----------



## keybored (Aug 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Interesting thread, this.



Stick it in your files if you think I'm being serious.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Google is not readily answering my query as to how many of the people murdered in the uk this past 12 months have been ..  non-white teenagers. My guess is a very high %.


You'd be wrong on the London figures quoted by smokedout above where teenagers of all ethnicities make up less than 20% of homicide victims (19/112) so I imagine you'd be some way out nationally too.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Google is not readily answering my query as to how many of the people murdered in the uk this past 12 months have been ..  non-white teenagers. My guess is a very high %.



in 2012/13



> Of the 1,715 homicides recorded by police in the three-year period ending March 2013:
> • Over three-quarters (77%) of victims were White (1,317 offences), compared with 86% of the
> population of England and Wales from 2011 Census2 results,
> • Around one in ten (11%) were Black (186), compared with 3% of the population,
> ...



footnote is worth adding



> Black victims are therefore over-represented and White under-represented but it should be noted
> that these results have not been age-standardised, and it was shown earlier (Appendix table 2.03
> (1.38 Mb Excel sheet)) that there is a relationship between age and being a victim of homicide and
> there is a relationship between age and ethnicity.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 6, 2016)

revol68 said:


> Sorry mate, the left has no boiler plate response to such issues, so pipe down. ￼



Does anyone?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2016)

smokedout said:


> in 2012/13
> 
> 
> 
> footnote is worth adding


Expert searching


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2016)

smokedout said:


> in 2012/13
> 
> 
> 
> footnote is worth adding


link  please? (I'm curious about the woman to mens ratio too)


----------



## smokedout (Aug 7, 2016)

bimble said:


> link  please? (I'm curious about the woman to mens ratio too)



Chapter 2 - Homicide


----------



## revol68 (Aug 7, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Who has drawn 'equivalence' with the US? Have BLMUK actually said what you say, or is that just projection?



I think it's quite obvious that BLM UK are quite desperate to make an equivalence, hence their approach of fudging figures and stitching together some quite disparate issues.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2016)

bimble said:


> which white middle class people like me


 You once put a pic up of a young black woman. I made a point of asking if it was you and you said yes. Why did you lie?


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You once put a pic up of a young black woman. I made a point of asking if it was you and you said yes. Why did you lie?


Really don't know what to say to this. What do you think I've done- posted a picture of someone else and pretended to be her?  I can pm you proof , same cat box etc if you like.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2016)

Proof of what? Our pm convo when I asked you and pasted the pic you posted still exists. You claimed to be a Black woman, now you aren't as you just referred to yourself as White. Telling the truth would be nice.


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2016)

I never claimed to be a black woman.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 7, 2016)

have to admit, i remember that picture. with your face away from the screen, with long curly hair and i think a floral type dress?

anyway, if you lied you haven't used it from what i can tell as a means to get something iyswim so not bothered.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2016)

You posted a pic on the ugly mugs thread of a young black woman. I started a pm convo with you and asked if it was/is you. You said yes. I still have the convo. Why you lied then and are lying now is beyond me. Knowing you lied does make a few things make more sense though.


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2016)

Rutita1 This is totally surreal. Are you accusing me of posting a picture of someone else on that ugly mugs thread and pretending it is a picture of me? I promise you, that is a picture of me, from last summer.
If you think I look like a black woman in that picture it's just because of the hairdo.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2016)

Yes. And if you think for one second you will get away with trying to make me look like I have done something wrong here you'd better think again. You lied and now have been found out.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 7, 2016)

i'm #confused


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 7, 2016)

Post in question: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...our-delectation.274873/page-675#post-14389526

If bimble was black why would she claim the hairdo was "culturally appropriative"?


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes. And if you think for one second you will get away with trying to make me look like I have done something wrong here you'd better think again. You lied and now have been found out.


I'm not interested in making you look like you've done something wrong but it isn't fair to accuse me of lying like that. On what basis are you saying it? Because the picture looked like a black woman to you and now I'm calling myself white? crazy.


----------



## andysays (Aug 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You once put a pic up of a young black woman. I made a point of asking if it was you and you said yes. Why did you lie?



There's a whole bunch of assumptions in this post.

bimble posted a picture of herself, and you (and various others apparently) decided it showed a "young black woman". It shouldn't need to be pointed out that all three of those terms are both socially constructed and capable of individual subjective interpretation.

None of them are absolute "essential" or objective categories, and the on-going tendency of many to assume that their individual notion of what is meant by "black" (whether that's a political, ethnic or other descriptor) is the correct one or the only one, without making any attempt to explain or examine that assumption, or even that the bare category of "black" (or others) *is useful* without any examination or description really shouldn't pass unchallenged.

Apart from the confusion it causes within any attempt at coherent discussion, it leads us almost inevitably to the point where you're now accusing someone of lying about whether the photo they've posted is actually of them, because it doesn't coincide with your conception of what artificial category a person should be put in based on one photo of them.

ETA phrase *is useful* added coz I missed it out originally


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Post in question: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...our-delectation.274873/page-675#post-14389526
> 
> If bimble was black why would she claim the hairdo was "culturally appropriative"?


Looking at it again i do have a suntan, as well as the hair, so maybe that is what makes me a liar.


----------



## keybored (Aug 7, 2016)

bimble said:


> Looking at it again i do have a suntan, as well as the hair, so maybe that is what makes me a liar.


That and the shitty lighting.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 7, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Post in question: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...our-delectation.274873/page-675#post-14389526
> 
> If bimble was black why would she claim the hairdo was "culturally appropriative"?


I know Bimble, and I can guarantee that that is a picture of her.


----------



## mauvais (Aug 7, 2016)

I like that blue dress.


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2016)

Thank you Spy. You wouldn't say that I'm brown though would you? (having seen me in winter in full daylight).


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2016)

bimble said:


> I'm not interested in making you look like you've done something wrong but it isn't fair to accuse me of lying like that. On what basis are you saying it? Because the picture looked like a black woman to you and now I'm calling myself white? crazy.


What's crazy is that you felt the need to lie. 
The picture is of a young black woman,  the pic is still in our convo. It isn't you, you are white, as you have now admitted.


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2016)

I give up Rutita. Read andysays 's post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

bimble said:


> I give up Rutita. Read andysays 's post.


I would hesitate to take seriously any post which starts off by telling you it is riddled with assumptions.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> What's crazy is that you felt the need to lie.
> The picture is of a young black woman,  the pic is still in our convo. It isn't you, you are white, as you have now admitted.


Is the picture that you are referring to, the same one that Bioboy linked to above?


----------



## keybored (Aug 7, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I like that blue dress.


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model do kindly fuck off, with your liking the posts that accuse me of putting someone else's picture up and pretending to be her. This is just ridiculous, a thread about BLM turning into an argument about my selfie.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

bimble said:


> Pickman's model do kindly fuck off, with your liking the posts that accuse me of putting someone else's picture up and pretending to be her. This is just ridiculous, a thread about BLM turning into an argument about my selfie.


I'll 'like' any post I want to.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 7, 2016)

Going through Bimble's posts on the UMT she only seems to have posted that one pic and I can't see any removed images on her other posts. So what pic are you referring to Rutita1 ? Did she pm you another pic?


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 7, 2016)

andysays said:


> There's a whole bunch of assumptions in this post.
> 
> bimble posted a picture of herself, and you (and various others apparently) decided it showed a "young black woman". It shouldn't need to be pointed out that all three of those terms are both socially constructed and capable of individual subjective interpretation.
> 
> ...


ok, but on basic levels of description?

say if you were describing a "black" friend to another friend, would you go through all the above or just say that she is black?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Going through Bimble's posts on the UMT she only seems to have posted that one pic and I can't see any removed images on her other posts. So what pic are you referring to Rutita1 ? Did she pm you another pic?


It's  the same pic. You know her and are saying she is White but has a 'suntan' in that pic?


----------



## snadge (Aug 7, 2016)

This thread has given me Sunday morning bellylaughs.

Keep it up warriors.


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> It's  the same pic. You know her and are saying she is White but has a 'suntan' in that pic?


I take it you now no longer think I was posting some other woman's picture up and lying pretending it was me? Phew. That was weird.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I do not know what you are doing on urban then, as speculation's what we do best


You could at least have a guess.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> It's  the same pic. You know her and are saying she is White but has a 'suntan' in that pic?


That is absolutely Bimble in the photo.

It was taken last summer when she had those hair extension things in. She doesn't look much different now (massive hair but without the extensions). She has a dark-ish complexion but  is "white".

Apart from the hair I don't even think she looks black in that picture, although the lighting does make her appear slightly darker than she is.


----------



## andysays (Aug 7, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> ok, but on basic levels of description?
> 
> say if you were describing a "black" friend to another friend, would you go through all the above or just say that she is black?



But we're not talking about basic levels of description, we're talking about complex socially constructed categories which affect people's lives in a variety of contexts. 

If I was describing one friend to another who didn't know them or their name, the words I would use would depend on the context and the situation.

My mum used to recall a story from my childhood when she asked me to point out my friend and classmate Stephen in a group of kids and I said "he's the one in the yellow jumper". I hadn't yet learned that I was supposed and expected to define black people primarily by their blackness rather than any of the many other categories I could use.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

emanymton said:


> You could at least have a guess.


He's posting here cos he has the hump with the cat who chucked in his cocoa *again*


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 7, 2016)

andysays said:


> But we're not talking about basic levels of description, we're talking about complex socially constructed categories which affect people's lives in a variety of contexts.
> 
> If I was describing one friend to another who didn't know them or their name, the words I would use would depend on the context and the situation.
> 
> My mum used to recall a story from my childhood when she asked me to point out my friend and classmate Stephen in a group of kids and I said "he's the one in the yellow jumper". I hadn't yet learned that I was supposed and expected to define black people primarily by their blackness rather than any of the many other categories I could use.



i live in a largely BME community and ethnic minorities are always referring to white friends as "the white one" or "my white mate" or "the white girl". are they "being expected" to define white people by their whiteness or using the term as innocently as someone describing their 6.7 mate as "teh tall one". i think the later.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2016)

revol68 said:


> I think it's quite obvious that BLM UK are quite desperate to make an equivalence, hence their approach of fudging figures and stitching together some quite disparate issues.


Well, this is what Natasha Nkonde said to the BBC's 'Newsbeat' FB page when being interviewed about the Heathrow protest...


> *Why does there need to be a Black Lives Matter in the UK?*
> _"We know that in the UK there have been *over 1500 deaths in police custody. Many of those are black people*," says Natasha.
> 
> "We also know *black people are 37 time more likely to be stopped and search by the police*.
> ...


These figures, from other sources, have all be openly reported in the MSM...and I don't see any explicit attempt to claim _equivalence _with the situation in the USA. The data they are highlighting relate specifically to the experience of blacks living in the UK. I'm sure that they would express solidarity with their brothers & sisters in the US, but there's nothing wrong with that, is there?


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Aug 7, 2016)

brogdale said:


> These figures, from other sources, have all be openly reported in the MSM...


The headline figures are accurate but the inferences are open to question.

The 2011 census puts the white population at 82% of the overall population.

Deaths in police custody | INQUEST

There were 178 deaths following contact with the police between 2010 and 2015.

BAME deaths in police custody | INQUEST

24 of those deaths were BAME, or about 15%. Ethnic minorities are not disproportionately more likely to die in custody.

Referring to the increase in racist incidents since Brexit is also potentially dodgy. Do we know who the victims were? I'd have thought that many or most would have been Eastern European. But I don't know, and I bet BLM don't either. 

BLMUK has natural opponents (right-wing media, etc) and it shouldn't leave them open goals by basing the campaign on figures that could be shredded.


----------



## Ole (Aug 7, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Well, this is what Natasha Nkonde said to the BBC's 'Newsbeat' FB page when being interviewed about the Heathrow protest...
> ​These figures, from other sources, have all be openly reported in the MSM...and I don't see any explicit attempt to claim _equivalence _with the situation in the USA. The data they are highlighting relate specifically to the experience of blacks living in the UK. I'm sure that they would express solidarity with their brothers & sisters in the US, but there's nothing wrong with that, is there?



The truth is the data they are highlighting is in one case flatly wrong, and in the other so vague as to be insubstantial.

_"We know that in the UK there have been *over 1500 deaths in police custody. Many of those are black people*," says Natasha.
_​Firstly, it is likely she is quoting Inquest figures, and if so she's wrong in that they recorded a total of 1028 deaths in police custody since 1990. She is referring to the 1563 deaths which was actually the total number of deaths following virtually any interaction with the police — and the number actually refers to England and Wales, not the whole UK as she states.

Anyway she says "Many of those are black people". How many?

145 deaths out of 1028 were BAME and 883 were white. That's 14% and 86% respectively. According to the 2011 census, England and Wales is 86% white and 14% non-white... so the number is almost exactly proportionate with the population from that level of granularity. We don't have the proportion of police custody deaths that are specifically black, but I think it's fair to say no reasonable person would conclude that this figure amounts to "a crisis" specifically for black people, not without amounting to a crisis for white people as well.

_"We also know *black people are 37 time more likely to be stopped and search by the police*.
_​This is false. Stop and search: the racial imbalance

It refers only to section 60 stops (a small fraction of all total stop-and-searches) and only for one year (the numbers fluctuate very significantly year-on-year). In England and Wales the real number is actually 6 times. Here there actually is clear disproportion, but they've obviously decided it wasn't sexy enough and chose the 37 times falsehood.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

Ole said:


> The truth is the data they are highlighting is in one case flatly wrong, and in the other so vague as to be insubstantial.
> 
> _"We know that in the UK there have been *over 1500 deaths in police custody. Many of those are black people*," says Natasha.
> _​Firstly, it is likely she is quoting Inquest figures, and if so she's wrong in that they recorded a total of 1028 deaths in police custody since 1990. She is referring to the 1563 deaths which was actually the total number of deaths following virtually any interaction with the police — and the number actually refers to England and Wales, not the whole UK as she states.
> ...


Unless I am much mistaken the first death in police custody or following contact with the police occurred some time before 1990. What is so magical about 1990? Surely since 1829 (excluding the dmp's earlier existence) and up to 1990 hundreds if not thousands must have died in the care of the police or following contact with them.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 7, 2016)

.


----------



## Ole (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Unless I am much mistaken the first death in police custody or following contact with the police occurred some time before 1990. What is so magical about 1990?


That's how far the Inquest numbers go back. Have you got any other data?


----------



## Ole (Aug 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> It's  the same pic. You know her and are saying she is White but has a 'suntan' in that pic?





Spymaster said:


> That is _absolutely_ Bimble in the photo.
> 
> It was taken last summer when she had those hair extension things in. She doesn't look much different now (massive hair but without the extensions). She has a dark-ish complexion but  is "white".
> 
> Apart from the hair I don't even think she looks black in that picture, although the lighting does make her appear slightly darker than she is.



 ffs

bimble to be fair, you do look like a black woman (and gorgeous).


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 7, 2016)

I thought she was black too


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You posted a pic on the ugly mugs thread of a young black woman. I started a pm convo with you and asked if it was/is you. You said yes. I still have the convo. Why you lied then and are lying now is beyond me. Knowing you lied does make a few things make more sense though.


It would be nice if you were up for acknowledging that you made a mistake you know. Pretty shit that was, accusing me of being some sort of a pathological liar for no reason at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

Ole said:


> That's how far the Inquest numbers go back. Have you got any other data?


Let's see: colin roach, of course. Bloody Sunday 1887. All the people killed by elements of the royal irish constabulary, esp. 1919-21, people killed by the ruc. Sure there's more.


----------



## Ole (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Let's see: colin roach, of course. Bloody Sunday 1887. All the people killed by elements of the royal irish constabulary, esp. 1919-21, people killed by the ruc. Sure there's more.


That's not data sunshine.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Aug 7, 2016)

bimble said:


> It would be nice if you were up for acknowledging that you made a mistake you know. Pretty shit that was, accusing me of being some sort of a pathological liar for no reason at all.


Very much agree


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Unless I am much mistaken the first death in police custody or following contact with the police occurred some time before 1990. What is so magical about 1990? Surely since 1829 (excluding the dmp's earlier existence) and up to 1990 hundreds if not thousands must have died in the care of the police or following contact with them.


Little Jimmy caught smallpox in a police cell in 1845 and died. This is a crisis.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

Ole said:


> That's not data sunshine.


it is additional information, by pointing you to the killings of e.g. colin roach, the killings by (for example) the auxiliary division of the ric between 1919 and 1921, and the killings by the ruc (including their special constabularies) from 1922 to at least 1969 i have offered a path to at least 200 other deaths in or following police custody or contact. no, it's not neatly tabulated. but there you go.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

MAD-T-REX said:


> Little Jimmy caught smallpox in a police cell in 1845 and died. This is a crisis.


yes, death at the hands of the police is a grand auld joke. let's all chortle about it.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 7, 2016)

bimble said:


> It would be nice if you were up for acknowledging that you made a mistake you know. Pretty shit that was, accusing me of being some sort of a pathological liar for no reason at all.


Sounds like a misunderstanding due to the picture


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 7, 2016)

Go to ub40 thread pickers, great vid of them giving the coppers a shoeing


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yes, i know. And maybe there is a sort of basic economics at play, re the police and their treatment of young black men lying dead on a pavement in south london. as in, there''s a lot of them about so they are cheap, and their lives matter less.


To reintroduce class to the conversation, this has always been the case in working class urban areas, regardless of resident ethnicity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Go to ub40 thread pickers, great vid of them giving the coppers a shoeing


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Jasper's entire career is based on racialising things like this.  Glasgow has a comparable violent crime rate with London and a very low young black population.  Its not a race thing, or a black thing, its a bored skint angry young men thing.



Quite. A quick look in South London history shows us that gang violence goes back centuries, not just decades, and that officialdom has always taken a heavy hand when it feels itself threatened.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, death at the hands of the police is a grand auld joke. let's all chortle about it.


I'll put it another way. Any data for 1829 onwards, if it was available, would add nothing to the debate. A list of the causes of death would begin with disease, bludgeonings and murders for political activity but eventually become dominated by heart attacks and seizures while alone in a cell.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

MAD-T-REX said:


> I'll put it another way. Any data for 1829 onwards, if it was available, would add nothing to the debate. A list of the causes of death would begin with disease, bludgeonings and murders for political activity but eventually become dominated by heart attacks and seizures while alone in a cell.


let me put it another way. there have been way more than 1,500 deaths in police custody or following contact with the police. many of them have involved bme deaths. if anything yer woman's figures were an underestimate, and assuming they start in 1990 is taking rather a leap when no dates were mentioned. while heart attacks and seizures may be included, and i'll let others argue the rights and wrongs of that, we all know that large numbers of people have died at the hands of the police for the colour of their skin, their assumed political views and on the basis of their socio-economic class.


----------



## Ted Striker (Aug 7, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Go to ub40 thread pickers, great vid of them giving the coppers a shoeing



No shoeing, but as good excuse as any for a reprise of this personal favourite


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> we all know that large numbers of people have died at the hands of the police for the colour of their skin, their assumed political views and on the basis of their socio-economic class.



If "we all know that" what is the point in Natasha Nkonde making a statement with these numbers on the BBC's Facebook page? Do you think she is trying to achieve something by using these figures?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> If "we all know that" what is the point in Natasha Nkonde making a statement with these numbers on the BBC's Facebook page? Do you think she is trying to achieve something by using these figures?


we all know that large numbers have died for those reasons, it's not particularly hard to point to examples of such deaths. the point in her making a statement is because while we may know these things on occasion we need to be reminded of them. and yes, i do think she is trying to achieve something by using these figures.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> we all know that large numbers have died for those reasons, it's not particularly hard to point to examples of such deaths. the point in her making a statement is because while we may know these things on occasion we need to be reminded of them. and yes, i do think she is trying to achieve something by using these figures.



It _isn't_ a large number, that is the point.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> we all know that large numbers have died for those reasons, it's not particularly hard to point to examples of such deaths. the point in her making a statement is because while we may know these things on occasion we need to be reminded of them. and yes, i do think she is trying to achieve something by using these figures.



You really think everyone knows about the problem with police deaths? I think you overestimate the general population's awareness of such issues, especially the readership of the BBC's kiddies' news Facebook group.

Anyway we saw with the EU referendum that the specific figures you use to make a point don't actually matter.


----------



## A380 (Aug 7, 2016)

Two separate posts as two seperate points.

Why aren't we talking about class. The police target the crimes committed by the poor, it's what they are mostly for. That's true here, in Europe and in the states. So poor people are arrested and searched more.

Poor people also kill each other more in non domestic settings. Don't know why, probably something to do with risk/reward calculations. 

The real failure is why so many black people, and disproportionately black men have been left in grinding poverty for two or even three generations. 

It's about class.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

A380 said:


> Two separate posts as two seperate points.
> 
> Why aren't we talking about class. The police target the crimes committed by the poor, it's what they are mostly for. That's true here, in Europe and in the states. So poor people are arrested and searched more.
> 
> ...


Yes,this is the elephant in the room which has been mentioned but not discussed


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> It _isn't_ a large number, that is the point.


Oh? What is the number and why do you believe it small?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 7, 2016)

The number of black deaths in custody.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 7, 2016)

According to inquest in 27 years 11 black people have been shot by the police and 145 have died in police custody.

White collar crime fraud is much harder to detect convict and isnt obvious.
 Millions disappear into an offshore account nobody on the street notices.
 Dead black teenager is kinda of obvious.
	While the police cant actually improve life chances for poor people they can make it difficult for blackteenagers to walk about carrying knives


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Aug 7, 2016)

lolwut?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> You really think everyone knows about the problem with police deaths? I think you overestimate the general population's awareness of such issues, especially the readership of the BBC's kiddies' news Facebook group
> 
> Anyway we saw with the EU referendum that the specific figures you use to make a point don't actually matter.


I am unaware of any problem with police deaths.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

likesfish said:


> According to inquest in 27 years 11 black people have been shot by the police and 145 have died in police custody.
> 
> White collar crime fraud is much harder to detect convict and isnt obvious.
> Millions disappear into an offshore account nobody on the street notices.
> ...


Do inquest have stats for 1989?


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I am unaware of any problem with police deaths.



Inquest aren't: Police deaths | INQUEST


----------



## A380 (Aug 7, 2016)

MAD-T-REX said:


> The headline figures are accurate but the inferences are open to question.
> 
> The 2011 census puts the white population at 82% of the overall population.
> 
> ...



As a previous poster says, blatantly mis reporting the figures will bite in the long to mid term. Crying wolf gets you eaten by the wolf.

Either she doesn't understand, which seems incredibly unlikely to me, or as someone else said some of the spokes people are using this as a spring board for media or main stream politics careers and so are less worried about the long term impact.

Go for the correct figure, and accept that most (85/90% ) of deaths following police contact are medical. First aid following a normal ( not police car) accident is a death in custody, police officers being sent out with defibrillators in areas where the ambulance service has collapsed and the person isn't brought back are death in custody. All you need is the Express or Sun to point this out and run that for a couple of days and the whole campaign is dead for years.

Even those more controversial deaths have a huge proportion of mental I'll health factors, that's a huge campaign. How the entire mental health services, which still includes the police completely fails the poor and black people and especially poor black people.

But I imagine that the lure of a guardian colum or a researchers job on £50k a year means that a few weeks in the spotlight is worth setting the campaign for real justice and change back years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Inquest aren't: Police deaths | INQUEST


Oh! You mean what I've been describing as deaths in police custody or following contact with the police. I thought you meant deaths of police officers.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Do inquest have stats for 1989?


Black Deaths in Custody |  Institute of Race Relations

These people have names and dates I make a total of 8


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh! You mean what I've been describing as deaths in police custody or following contact with the police. I thought you meant deaths of police officers.



No you didn't


----------



## Ole (Aug 7, 2016)

CPS guidance on 'deaths in custody' and 'deaths following contact with the police':

*What is a 'death in custody'?*

A 'death in custody' is a generic term which refers to deaths of those in the custody of the State. A non-fatal shooting or severe and extensive injury is not sufficient; there must be a death. However, a death in a road traffic incident, even if the person who dies is under arrest and heading towards a police station in a police car, is not a death in custody.

The deceased must have been 'in custody'. The following list illustrates some circumstances that may apply to this definition:


whilst under arrest in a police station;
whilst held as a prisoner in a prison or police station;
whilst under arrest by a police officer;
whilst being detained for the purposes of a search;
whilst in other lawful detention e.g. immigration detention (but not where the victim is compulsorily detained under the Mental Health Act 1983 *except* where the person is still in police custody before being transferred to a medical facility);
whilst a child or young person is in custody for their own protection;
as a result of being shot by a police officer; or
following any other 'contact with the police' where there may be a link between the contact and the death.
The identity or employment of the person who caused the death is immaterial in all cases except fatal police shootings. For example, if a person dies as a result of grossly negligent medical treatment by a police doctor whilst in custody, that is still a death in custody.

A suicide can also be a death in custody, as can for example, a death following a fight between prisoners, if there is an indication that a prison or other officer or the prison has negligently failed to prevent the death.

Top of page

*Death following contact with the Police*

'Death following contact with the police' is a broad category, covering many possible scenarios. It is not limited to contact in the sense of physical touching or assault but includes all cases where a person dies following some kind of interaction with the police. For example:


a custody officer releases someone on bail from a police station whilst they are suffering from an undiagnosed illness from which they later die;
a homeless person is found frozen to death after the police checked on their welfare;
a person suffers a fatal heart attack running away from a police officer who is trying to arrest them;
a death that happens whilst in transit from police detention to a medical facility, whether being transported by the police or an ambulance;
where the police attend a siege situation and the besieged person kills themselves or a hostage.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> No you didn't


I told you what I thought. And you'll see I have been throughout precise in referring to deaths in police custody or following contact with the police. You use what is at best an equivocal phrase and should be able to see how misunderstandings can occur.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I told you what I thought. And you'll see I have been throughout precise in referring to deaths in police custody or following contact with the police. You use what is at best an equivocal phrase and should be able to see how misunderstandings can occur.



You were just trying to avoid answering the actual question.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> You were just trying to avoid answering the actual question.


I answered the question I understood you to be asking. The question you say you would like me to answer I have already answered and you merely sought confirmation I meant what I said. Stop trying to dress up your feverish antics as a bold quest when they're nothing more than the desperate floppings of a fish out of water: or a poor swimmer beyond his depth.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2016)

Some posters on here seem especially motivated to interrogate and invalidate the BLMUK claims. Is this because they wish them well, and seek to help refine their 'PR', or are there other beefs going unsaid?
Genuinely interested to hear from the naysayers.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 7, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Some posters on here seem especially motivated to interrogate and invalidate the BLMUK claims. Is this because they wish them well, and seek to help refine their 'PR', or are there other beefs going unsaid?
> Genuinely interested to hear from the naysayers.


I haven't been naysaying, but will dive in anyway.  Haven't had time to look at the IWCA stuff but the idea there's an intersectionalist vibe about the group sets off a tiny alarm bell. Quite separately I'd have thought most people could agree that using figures that are either false or vague as to time periods is counter productive.  But then I also wish them well.  The actions carried out seemed well judged to me and anything that focuses on police violence and racism is positive.  Might well be significant issues in terms of how BLM UK thinks about race and class, but that positive still isn't lost.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 7, 2016)

Suppose I'm just saying take the group and their actions at face value unless given overwhelming evidence to the contrary.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Aug 7, 2016)

A380 said:


> As a previous poster says, blatantly mis reporting the figures will bite in the long to mid term. Crying wolf gets you eaten by the wolf.
> 
> Either she doesn't understand, which seems incredibly unlikely to me, or as someone else said some of the spokes people are using this as a spring board for media or main stream politics careers and so are less worried about the long term impact.
> 
> ...


The inquest figures for police contact don't include deaths during first aid after accidents etc - they'd be much higher if they did - for example in 2015  they say there were 21 deaths in police custody or in contact with the police, 4 deaths after police pursuit, 3 deaths after police road traffic incidents, 3 deaths after shootings by police, making a total of 31 deaths.  They don't even include "self inflicted deaths" after police contact or deaths as a result of domestic violence after police have been involved  - they are hardly going to include people who die of heart attacks where a passing PC has given first aid are they.
Yes there has been some inaccurate or vague figures quoted by some people - but inquest are a spot on organisation who do good research.

I agree with what you say about mental health and race and class.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I am unaware of any problem with police deaths.



Not nearly enough of them?


----------



## A380 (Aug 7, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> The inquest figures for police contact don't include deaths during first aid after accidents etc - they'd be much higher if they did - for example in 2015  they say there were 21 deaths in police custody or in contact with the police, 4 deaths after police pursuit, 3 deaths after police road traffic incidents, 3 deaths after shootings by police, making a total of 31 deaths.  They don't even include "self inflicted deaths" after police contact or deaths as a result of domestic violence after police have been involved  - they are hardly going to include people who die of heart attacks where a passing PC has given first aid are they.
> Yes there has been some inaccurate or vague figures quoted by some people - but inquest are a spot on organisation who do good research.
> 
> I agree with what you say about mental health and race and class.


Yes, which is why it's so counter productive for the current BLMUK spokespeople to talk about thousands or even hundreds of deaths.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Aug 7, 2016)

Ole said:


> CPS guidance on 'deaths in custody' and 'deaths following contact with the police':
> ​


Inquest's figures don't use the same definition as this "INQUEST's figures are derived from our monitoring and casework and are independent of those produced by the Home Office, Independent Police Complaints Commission and other government agencies.  INQUEST defines police custody deaths as deaths that take place while the individual is in contact with police, whether or not they have been arrested, or that happen shortly after that contact. The death may not necessarily have occurred inside a police station. We do not include self-inflicted deaths following contact with police or deaths as a result of domestic violence where the police have been involved."


----------



## Ole (Aug 7, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> Inquest's figures don't use the same definition as this "INQUEST's figures are derived from our monitoring and casework and are independent of those produced by the Home Office, Independent Police Complaints Commission and other government agencies.  INQUEST defines police custody deaths as deaths that take place while the individual is in contact with police, whether or not they have been arrested, or that happen shortly after that contact. The death may not necessarily have occurred inside a police station. We do not include self-inflicted deaths following contact with police or deaths as a result of domestic violence where the police have been involved."



Cheers. I reckon INQUEST's numbers are more authoritative in that case.


----------



## Ole (Aug 7, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Some posters on here seem especially motivated to interrogate and invalidate the BLMUK claims. Is this because they wish them well, and seek to help refine their 'PR', or are there other beefs going unsaid?
> Genuinely interested to hear from the naysayers.


Conversely, from my perspective, some posters on here seem particularly motivated *not* to interrogate the validity of BLMUK's claims. 

I don't believe spreading misinformation to further a cause is sensible or justified, that is my motivation for posting as I have done.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2016)

Ole said:


> Conversely, from my perspective, some posters on here seem particularly motivated *not* to interrogate the validity of BLMUK's claims.
> 
> I don't believe spreading misinformation to further a cause is sensible or justified, that is my motivation for posting as I have done.


Ok, fair enough.
So, I take from what you say, that you do wish them well with their protests?


----------



## Ole (Aug 7, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Ok, fair enough.
> So, I take from what you say, that you do wish them well with their protests?


I hope they show stronger commitment to facts in future and bring class into the heart of the conversation, then I would wish them well.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2016)

Ole said:


> I hope they show stronger commitment to facts in future and bring class into the heart of the conversation, then I would wish them well.


They may not be explicit in their class analysis but some BLM UK activists are certainly setting their protests within an economic context. There's a few comments to that effect in this Observer piece:-


> _Jeffers said the gun-driven brutality in the US was obviously not being replicated on the streets of Britain, but inequality and discrimination existed at alarming levels._


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2016)

Ole said:


> Conversely, from my perspective, some posters on here seem particularly motivated *not* to interrogate the validity of BLMUK's claims.



In some cases, I'd say that there's not a "motivation", but rather a weariness. It's easy to agree with some claims when you know people whose lives have been ruined by police violence, even though they haven't been killed. I know that I'd had a gut-full by the time I was 16, and I'm more than three times that age now. 



> I don't believe spreading misinformation to further a cause is sensible or justified, that is my motivation for posting as I have done.



I agree, but I'd argue that it's sloppy argument, rather than deliberate falsehood that's the issue, and that perceptions about police violence are playing a part too.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 7, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Some posters on here seem especially motivated to interrogate and invalidate the BLMUK claims. Is this because they wish them well, and seek to help refine their 'PR', or are there other beefs going unsaid?
> Genuinely interested to hear from the naysayers.


In my view BLM UK look like idiots if they try to claim a crisis when the actual figures don't convincingly show there is one. They look like idiots when they try and shoe horn all sorts of other issues under one umbrella to claim legitimacy. I mean take the attempt at shoe horning refugees drowning in the med under the BLM banner. Given the cross words at the beginning of the thread and all the grief that caused, confusing black with brown and then take that to a social movement 'BLM as black refugees are drowning in the med' 'So are brown people on a larger scale 'Err the B can mean brown as well' 

Compare this with the BLM movement in the US who on a weekly basis can produce video after video of black people getting shot dead in the back, shot dead while being held down, shot dead when complying fully, choked to death, tazed to death and so on all by the state, backed up with very clear evidence of black people receiving harsher sentences for the same crime as other, black people disproportionately imprisoned and on and on then that's a crisis that needs addressing now. It's gotten so serious there that there's been a return of armed black militia on the streets to protect themselves and police have been attacked and killed in revenge attacks and there's been riots.

Some of the above happens here but stop and search rates are falling, the number of deaths of ethnic minorities aren't out of proportion with the general population, most deaths in custody are as a result of medical conditions rather than police brutality.  Finally it seems other groups already campaigning against lack of justice for deaths that have a case to answer, about stop and search and so on all seem a bit pissed off at BLM UK suddenly emerging on the news and fudging important things like figures. These things can be dismissed very easily by the sun et al and kicks grievances into the long grass for another few years. 

That's my take on it from reading this thread and looking at the figures anyway.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> In my view BLM UK look like idiots if they try to claim a crisis when the actual figures don't convincingly show there is one. They look like idiots when they try and shoe horn all sorts of other issues under one umbrella to claim legitimacy. I mean take the attempt at shoe horning refugees drowning in the med under the BLM banner. Given the cross words at the beginning of the thread and all the grief that caused, confusing black with brown and then take that to a social movement 'BLM as black refugees are drowning in the med' 'So are brown people on a larger scale 'Err the B can mean brown as well'
> 
> Compare this with the BLM movement in the US who on a weekly basis can produce video after video of black people getting shot dead in the back, shot dead while being held down, shot dead when complying fully, choked to death, tazed to death and so on all by the state, backed up with very clear evidence of black people receiving harsher sentences for the same crime as other, black people disproportionately imprisoned and on and on then that's a crisis that needs addressing now. It's gotten so serious there that there's been a return of armed black militia on the streets to protect themselves and police have been attacked and killed in revenge attacks and there's been riots.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thorough reply.

I can see what you're getting at, particularly in the penultimate paragraph, but I'm still left feeling slightly disorientated by the degree of antipathy demonstrated by some in this thread. Maybe I'm being particularly naive this week, but I'm slightly surprised at the number of urbanites who've come out agin the UK BLM protests. 

FWIW, I do think that comparing (favourably) the situation of blacks in the UK with the USA does run the risk of looking uncomfortably like a 'what are they complaining about?' narrative. The implication being that things in the US are demonstrably worse, fully justifying the BLM movement...whereas...?

I suppose what most concerns me is when you say...


> _Some of the above happens here but..._



Also, got to say I couldn't give a flying fuck what the Scum might say about anything BLM UK might assert; what do you expect?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2016)

bimble said:


> It would be nice if you were up for acknowledging that you made a mistake you know. Pretty shit that was, accusing me of being some sort of a pathological liar for no reason at all.





Spymaster said:


> That is absolutely Bimble in the photo.
> 
> It was taken last summer when she had those hair extension things in. She doesn't look much different now (massive hair but without the extensions). She has a dark-ish complexion but  is "white".



bimble No problem, if I am wrong I will acknowledge it and given that Spy has backed you up I will take both of your word for it.

Comments like this though?



> Apart from the hair I don't even think she looks black in that picture,



Come on now... It's more than whoops I got a little suntan but I am usually 'pinkish-yellow' which is how you described yourself earlier in the thread.











Ole said:


> bimble to be fair, you do look like a black woman


Quite.


----------



## bimble (Aug 7, 2016)

You were accusing me of posting up someone else's photo then repeatedly lying when i said it was a selfie. Thanks for acknowledging that was mistake.
(Totally separate issue from what colour my skin looks said picture)


----------



## mauvais (Aug 7, 2016)

This is still going? Cover up her hair (try it) and she could be pretty much any ethnicity.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 7, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Thanks for the thorough reply.
> 
> I can see what you're getting at, particularly in the penultimate paragraph, but I'm still left feeling slightly disorientated by the degree of antipathy demonstrated by some in this thread. Maybe I'm being particularly naive this week, but I'm slightly surprised at the number of urbanites who've come out agin the UK BLM protests.
> 
> ...



I can only speak for myself but my overarching point is there just isn't a crisis of police killing black people in this country and black people being killed in custody.  I don't even need to compare the situation with America to point that out.  I only do so because BLM UK is painting itself as the UK branch of the US movement that is campaigning against an actual crisis.  I can't pretend to know much about any activism going on against things like stop and search (something that is decreasing) but seems groups engaged in that activism are against BLM precisely because it underminds their own activism and they've dismissed it as a middle class trendy springboard for other things. Usually I find the latter of that criticism a bit harsh as I don't care where things come from if they have relevance beyond the people who are organising its career ambitions but I'm not sure that's the case for BLMUK.  

Using the sun is a bad example but the point I'm trying to make is about the wider media in general. If the assertions of BLM UK can be dismissed so easily, and they will be by most media outlets, and there isn't really a case born out in the figures from people like Inquest then what is the point of BLM UK? If it's the case, and I think it is, that there is no crisis in the UK then BLM UKs actions will surely just undermind wider campaigns?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 7, 2016)

mauvais said:


> This is still going? Cover up her hair (try it) and she could be pretty much any ethnicity.


White Jewish obvs.

After all these years urban never ceases to amaze me!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2016)

ska invita said:


> After all these years urban never ceases to amaze me!


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> bimble No problem, if I am wrong I will acknowledge it and given that Spy has backed you up I will take both of your word for it.
> 
> Comments like this though?
> 
> ...


Fair play Rutita1.

I think this is finished now.


----------



## Ted Striker (Aug 7, 2016)

mauvais said:


> This is still going? Cover up her hair (try it) and she could be pretty much any ethnicity.



#BimblesLooksMatter


----------



## Ole (Aug 7, 2016)

brogdale said:


> They may not be explicit in their class analysis but some BLM UK activists are certainly setting their protests within an economic context. There's a few comments to that effect in this Observer piece:-
> ​



It's very weak.. very clumsy as well.


> There lay the British complacency, said Natalie Jeffers, co-founder of Black Lives Matter UK. There might be fewer guns used in the UK, she said, “but there is a war going on against black people”.
> 
> In 2014 black people made up 10% of the total prison population, while making up 3.5% of the UK’s total population, according to the Equality and Human Rights Commission. There is a greater disparity between the proportion of black people in prison and in the general population than there is in the US.


This bit is the Guardian/Observer's fault, but there really is no excuse for this kind of bollocks.

IIRC there is also a greater racial disparity in Sweden than in the U.S. The bit they leave out is that the U.S. imprisons people at a rate that is absolutely unrecognisable in the UK and all of Europe, and as a result the incarceration problem is much, much more severe for American blacks.



> “We need to look at high levels of violence in impoverished communities in the UK. I grew up in a mixed community. I saw black people, Asian people and white people facing the same sorts of oppression and difficulties. That is the way the white liberal left like to paint it. But the impact is enlarged when black people are involved.



Here she starts off by saying violence and oppression in impoverished communities is a problem for whites, blacks and Asians alike, but she follows it with "that is the way the white liberal left likes to paint it".  So is it true that Asians and whites face similar problems or not? Clumsy.



> “BLM UK gives us a new framework. Nobody is excluded from the room. But we have learned it’s important not to see the movement go the way a lot of anti-racist movements do, led by white people, middle-class white people. We welcome white allies, we want participation, but please do not take over from people who are directly affected by the oppression and acknowledge your privilege. Listen, but don’t dilute or devolve what is being said. Silence, white silence, is complicity and there is room for everyone to engage in change. We can be a powerful force.


Participate, because white silence = violence, but listen and don't 'dilute' what is being said. The inference that any reasonable person will draw from reading this is that working-class whites have no grievances worth listening to with regard to police violence and this group certainly has no time for them. Asians aren't mentioned at all.

I can't co-sign this at all. 



Doctor Carrot said:


> In my view BLM UK look like idiots if they try to claim a crisis when the actual figures don't convincingly show there is one. They look like idiots when they try and shoe horn all sorts of other issues under one umbrella to claim legitimacy. I mean take the attempt at shoe horning refugees drowning in the med under the BLM banner. Given the cross words at the beginning of the thread and all the grief that caused, confusing black with brown and then take that to a social movement 'BLM as black refugees are drowning in the med' 'So are brown people on a larger scale 'Err the B can mean brown as well'



This is pretty disgusting as well to be honest.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 7, 2016)

Ole said:


> This is pretty disgusting as well to be honest.



What is? What I said or the fact BLM UK are shoehorning everything under the sun into their campaign? If it's the former then that's probably me being clumsy myself but it does only highlight the fact the same name and same banner isn't appropriate for issues here or if they are they need to widen it.

BLM have very concrete demands that concern black people.  I don't agree they're all specific problems for black people but I agree with the vast majority of it.  They call for things like universal health care, basic income (for black people but it should be for everyone), right for workers to organise and so on.  It's primary concern is 'End the war on black people' I can get behind that' can get behind all of that.  The UK one is, as you say, clumsy.  It's new though so I'm not writing it off completely but as it currently stands it leaves too many open goals and is easily dismissed.

Black Lives Matter Reveals Platform Focusing On Six Demands


----------



## Ole (Aug 7, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> What is? What I said or the fact BLM UK are shoehorning everything under the sun into their campaign? If it's the former then that's probably me being clumsy myself but it does only highlight the fact the same name and same banner isn't appropriate for issues here or if they are they need to widen it.


Not what you said; the fact that they are appropriating the deaths of largely non-black refugees for their cause which their spokespeople make clear is concerned _exclusively_ with black suffering. One of many ways they are out of order, but possibly the most egregious.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I have to confess I don't fully understand BLM in the UK. They're a long way from the coherence & direct relevance (wrong word? the link to ongoing news & events) of the US version - are they taken seriously?



Depends on what your understanding of BLM is to be honest. Too many seem to think it's about black people being shot by the police, it's not that narrow.


.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 7, 2016)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Depends on what your understanding of BLM is to be honest. Too many seem to think it's about black people being shot by the police, it's not that narrow.
> 
> 
> .



In the US or UK context? The idea that there is a 'war on Black people' in the UK is, frankly, nonsense.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Aug 7, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Ole,
> 
> 
> In the US or UK context? The idea that there is a 'war on Black people' in the UK is, frankly, nonsense.



Lol all right then.


.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

I edited the post to remove Ole's name as it was carried over from an earlier post that was subsequently dealt with.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

I am a bit confused as to whether more black people are killed in police custody as a percentage compared to percentage of population, as the figures here seem to be white or non white deaths.

Also, are the numbers of incidents large enough for them to produce statistically significant results.

I do think the organisers of the Friday protests took the wrong approach and if their use of statistics is challenged it will destroy the credibility of UKBLM. It is pretty irresponsible when you have imported a platform that has ready made credibility.  

On a positive note I went to see Suicide Squad this evening and the line that got by far the most laughter in a more or less full cinema was Will Smith asking that they white people his daughters college results if she didn't do too well.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> In the US or UK context? The idea that there is a 'war on Black people' in the UK is, frankly, nonsense.



It's been low-intensity warfare on black people in the UK for several decades. Similarly, the same sort of warfare has borne down on the working class since there's been a working class.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> I do think the organisers of the Friday protests took the wrong approach


dodgy stats aside, and I don't want to get into that shit cos my grasp of maths is not so good, they made the est. look at them. Its what has to be done, no ones doing it out of glory hunting or that bullshit. Its an action. I support it from my bedroom in kettering etc. But to be srs you have to do shit like this unless you want to be nothing more than an ineffectual protest grouping. Just hope the hammer doesn't fall too heavily cos it does tend to


----------



## Ole (Aug 8, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's been low-intensity warfare on black people in the UK for several decades. Similarly, the same sort of warfare has borne down on the working class since there's been a working class.


That was also my thought. Unfortunately not BLMUK's.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> dodgy stats aside, and I don't want to get into that shit cos my grasp of maths is not so good, they made the est. look at them. Its what has to be done, no ones doing it out of glory hunting or that bullshit. Its an action. I support it from my bedroom in kettering etc. But to be srs you have to do shit like this unless you want to be nothing more than an ineffectual protest grouping. Just hope the hammer doesn't fall too heavily cos it does tend to



Doubt I will agree with you on the way to make progress but assuming you are correct surely that type of action requires a clear message to explain the issues, based on some decent evidence if it is to gain the support of enough people.  Even the EDL has an immigration policy now and are careful to distinguish between anti Muslim and anti Islam.  They are playing the game to gain acceptance and possibly legitimacy as a political force. 

The establishment may have taken note of the action on Friday but I don't see them worrying too much if they see no massive public support. Really to be effective you have to reach a point where speaking out about and making policy to reduce racism is seen as a vote winner.  Sadly at the moment the opposite is true.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

BigTom said:


> Logically, doesn't this mean you think BLM is an insult to every non black death at the hands of the police, eg: Ian Tomlinson or Harry Stanley?
> 
> I'd disagree personally.



I was basing my comment on what might be a faulty assumption that deaths crossing the Mediterranean were mostly Syrian and Afghan, as they make up the majority of people making that journey. I didn't find any figures on the nationalities of those who died but the route with most deaths is that used by African migrants. 

Although it may be possible to make a case that more black people drown in the Mediterranean it still seems wrong to add it to issues BLM UK want to address as the causes are totally out of line with police racism and other inspirational barriers in the UK


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> I was basing my comment on what might be a faulty assumption that deaths crossing the Mediterranean were mostly Syrian and Afghan, as they make up the majority of people making that journey. I didn't find any figures on the nationalities of those who died but the route with most deaths is that used by African migrants.
> 
> Although it may be possible to make a case that more black people drown in the Mediterranean it still seems wrong to add it to issues BLM UK want to address as the causes are totally out of line with police racism and other inspirational barriers in the UK


Never heard of these inspirational barriers before, tell me more


----------



## BigTom (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> I was basing my comment on what might be a faulty assumption that deaths crossing the Mediterranean were mostly Syrian and Afghan, as they make up the majority of people making that journey. I didn't find any figures on the nationalities of those who died but the route with most deaths is that used by African migrants.
> 
> Although it may be possible to make a case that more black people drown in the Mediterranean it still seems wrong to add it to issues BLM UK want to address as the causes are totally out of line with police racism and other inspirational barriers in the UK


And most deaths in custody / following police contact are non black too, so that reasoning doesn't work. Without looking at figures I'd guess there have been more deaths of migrants crossing from Africa than ME over the last 10yrs, as you say the route with the most deaths is African. 

Your point at the end about how the causes are different isn't wrong  and I'd see no reason why a campaign group about black people's deaths at the hands of the police should include refugees but I also think that they do fit and could be in a campaign together. Whether BLM wants to is up to them.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2016)

A lot of the white people in Prison are Travellers or Roma as well. I don't know the exact percentage but it's a very large amount in proportion to the population and I seldom here this discussed in the context of racial issues in the UK.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 8, 2016)

Young black men have been drowning in their hundreds for years trying to get to Europe but no one gave a shit until that light skinned toddler washed up on the beach last summer.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Young black men have been drowning in their hundreds for years trying to get to Europe but no one gave a shit until that light skinned toddler washed up on the beach last summer.



And a lot of refugee solidarity work and campaiging is focussed entirely on Syrians, when the majority of refugees entrering Europe are from Sudan, Eritrea, Ethiopia etc. The upshot of this is that when the government talks about maybe letting in a handful of children of families to the UK, it's only about Syrians.

The sudden increase in refugees leaving Syria did seem to coincide with the Guardian reading classes setting up facebook groups and loading rented vans with tinned food all of a sudden. Because now it's a crisis. It was a crisis for many years before that, but those of us working with refugees couldn't get anyone else to care about it.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 8, 2016)

Syrians are the right kind of refugees i.e. not black


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2016)

There were three times as many coming via the turkey/greece/italy/east balkan route as from the central med north african ones according to this. And according to the EU syrians are by far the largest group applying for asylum and the UN (even bigger when added to iraqis).


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Syrians are the right kind of refugees i.e. not black



This fact is not lost on many Africans and it leads to a lot of tension between different groups of people in places like Calais. Bearing in mind Syrian migrants often have more resources that African migrants to start with; Syria having been a relatively stable, prosperous society until a few years ago.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 8, 2016)

They're Muslims though. _Probably ISIS_. Which kind of grinds this hierarchy of oppression we all seem to be running with to an abrupt halt.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

Just on the way in which wrangling statistics to prove a point can be a massive diversion, here's an example. The Black Male Incarceration Problem Is Real and It's Catastrophic
Point being that arguing about whether or not there are more black men in prison in America than are enrolled at colleges is a meaningless distraction from the real issues.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> This fact is not lost on many Africans and it leads to a lot of tension between different groups of people in places like Calais. Bearing in mind Syrian migrants often have more resources that African migrants to start with; Syria having been a relatively stable, prosperous society until a few years ago.



I've worked in the camps in France on a number of occasions over a period of ten months so I know the kind of things you are talking about. 

Last October in Calais for example when direct distribution by random day trippers was really common you'd hear other volunteers talk about how they didn't want to give to ppl from certain communities. This would happen openly in the camp and since many of the residents spoke English I'm sure that they heard these conversations happening too. Its really grim.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> Point being that arguing about whether or not there are more black men in prison in America than are enrolled at colleges is a meaningless distraction from the real issues.



I really don't think it's meaningless. Tell a young black boy that he's more likely to go to prison than to university when he's oder and see if he thinks that's a meaningless piece of information. 

'Too many people in the US are sent to prison' and 'too many black people in the US are sent to prison' are not contradictory statements.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They're Muslims though. _Probably ISIS_. Which kind of grinds this hierarchy of oppression we all seem to be running with to an abrupt halt.



Should do but it won't.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I really don't think it's meaningless. Tell a young black boy that he's more likely to go to prison than to university when he's oder and see if he thinks that's a meaningless piece of information.
> 
> 'Too many people in the US are sent to prison' and 'too many black people in the US are sent to prison' are not contradictory statements.



Of course. I just meant that (as the article points out) the bare numbers do not add up to make that statement true (the numbers say that there are in fact more black men at college than in prison). But that this isn't the point.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

Returning to friday's actions, my friend who was arrested on friday and charged with obstructing highways is understandably upset that the very next day in the same city, hundreds of police from several different forces closed roads, businesses and attractions to allow <100 EDL to march through town. The disruption caused by this march was vastly greater than that caused by the BLM action, and despite the police presence EDL members were able to repeatedly throw missiles like eggs and bottles at the general public, including children, without being arrested. It goes without saying that the BLM actions were entirely peaceful.

Do we think a Black Lives Matter march would have been afforded the same level of protection? Bearing in mind their cause has considerable public support while the rump of the EDL are shunned even by the rest of the far right. A group of black protestors would certainly not have been able to throw stuff at people all day with police protection and without being arrested, not in a million years.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They're Muslims though. _Probably ISIS_. Which kind of grinds this hierarchy of oppression we all seem to be running with to an abrupt halt.



Many Africans are also muslims, as it turns out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

I do wish people wouldn't get hung up on the prison/college binary as what would be far more relevant would be the % of African American men with criminal records. A snapshot of x in prison and y in post-secondary education paints a misleading but superficially attractive counterpoint.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Returning to friday's actions, my friend who was arrested on friday and charged with obstructing highways is understandably upset that the very next day in the same city, hundreds of police from several different forces closed roads, businesses and attractions to allow <100 EDL to march through town. The disruption caused by this march was vastly greater than that caused by the BLM action, and despite the police presence EDL members were able to repeatedly throw missiles like eggs and bottles at the general public, including children, without being arrested. It goes without saying that the BLM actions were entirely peaceful.
> 
> Do we think a Black Lives Matter march would have been afforded the same level of protection? Bearing in mind their cause has considerable public support while the rump of the EDL are shunned even by the rest of the far right. A group of black protestors would certainly not have been able to throw stuff at people all day with police protection and without being arrested, not in a million years.


No way, re throwing stuff. There was a massive march from Brixton to parliament square last year though, in the name of reparations. Roads closed by sheer number of people marching, police presence minimal and very arms length.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> No way, re throwing stuff. There was a massive march from Brixton to parliament square last year though, in the name of reparations. Roads closed by sheer number of people marching, police presence minimal and very arms length.


I bet if you looked round the back of parliament Sq, on the embankment or by St James Park you'd have seen quite a few cops.
E2a I was on the duggan march on Saturday and there were a lot more cops about than just those visible.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Many Africans are also muslims, as it turns out.



Nice straw man.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Returning to friday's actions, my friend who was arrested on friday and charged with obstructing highways is understandably upset that the very next day in the same city, hundreds of police from several different forces closed roads, businesses and attractions to allow <100 EDL to march through town. The disruption caused by this march was vastly greater than that caused by the BLM action, and despite the police presence EDL members were able to repeatedly throw missiles like eggs and bottles at the general public, including children, without being arrested. It goes without saying that the BLM actions were entirely peaceful.
> 
> Do we think a Black Lives Matter march would have been afforded the same level of protection? Bearing in mind their cause has considerable public support while the rump of the EDL are shunned even by the rest of the far right. A group of black protestors would certainly not have been able to throw stuff at people all day with police protection and without being arrested, not in a million years.



The difference from a policing POV is that the EDL will have liased with them and stuck to an agreed route rather than just going and closing down a road (which will embarrass the authorities).


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The difference from a policing POV is that the EDL will have liased with them and stuck to an agreed route rather than just going and closing down a road (which will embarrass the authorities).


A lot easier to keep to an agreed route if you are in a bubble of police


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The difference from a policing POV is that the EDL will have liased with them and stuck to an agreed route rather than just going and closing down a road (which will embarrass the authorities).



The police planned the fash's route for them.

Would be interested to hear what sort of liason you think might have given the EDL carte blanche to throw bottles at kids.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> There was a massive march from Brixton to parliament square last year though, in the name of reparations. Roads closed by sheer number of people marching, police presence minimal and very arms length.



That march happens every year on the 1st of August. This year included.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 8, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Some of the above happens here but stop and search rates are falling, the number of deaths of ethnic minorities aren't out of proportion with the general population, most deaths in custody are as a result of medical conditions rather than police brutality.  Finally it seems other groups already campaigning against lack of justice for deaths that have a case to answer, about stop and search and so on all seem a bit pissed off at BLM UK suddenly emerging on the news and fudging important things like figures. These things can be dismissed very easily by the sun et al and kicks grievances into the long grass for another few years.



And yet neither of those things has happened, United Friends and Families supported the vigil in London on Friday and the press response from the right has been as you'd expect and from the liberal left surprisingly positive for such a disruptive action.  Sure some dickhead might quibble with the figures in The Spectator next week but no-one reads that shit, they won the media narrative, the news cycle has now moved on.

It is a bit of a clumsy mistake, but I've rarely heard other groups face the same kind of interregation over stats they use - and you could pull apart similiar claims from all kinds of different campaigns - how many times have you heard thousands of people are dying two weeks after being found fit for work?  Its complete horseshit, its frustrating, but it flies for some reason.

I also don't see any inconsistency with them supporting refugees, surely its easily understand that BLM is a pro-black, anti-racist organisation and as such EU refugee policies which lead to black and brown people dying in the sea should be addressed if BLM is going to be reflective of the problems here, rather than just trying to mirror the US situation.  I hope they talk about housing, and benefit cuts, and lots of other things (disroportionately) affecting black and ethnic minority people as well, and ideally that they place this within a wider class analysis - from what I've seen that is their direction of travel.  It is depressing if true that a lot of the prominent people are Oxbridge, that probably will impact on their priorities and ability to resonate with the wider black, brown and white working class, but that's hardly a problem that's unique to BLM, it's early days yet, let's see what happens.

I don't think this level of hyper-scrutiny over BLM is down to racism btw, at least not in the most part.  I think a lot of groups witnessing a brave, organised and successful political action, which played the media game pretty well in the aftermath, would rather tear it down or pick it to pieces rather than learn from it and think about how to raise their own aspirations and escalate their tactics accordingly.  Reminds of all the wailing and knashing of teeth over the cereal cafe incident, we hate it when we win.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Many Africans are also muslims, as it turns out.



Africans being synonymous with 'black people' it seems.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> The police planned the fash's route for them.
> 
> Would be interested to hear what sort of liason you think might have given the EDL carte blanche to throw bottles at kids.



I was countering the idea that the police were 'more supportive' of the EDL than BLM. All other reasons aside, they tend to be if they're liased with rather than not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Africans being synonymous with 'black people' it seems.








an african (relatively) recently


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I really don't think it's meaningless. Tell a young black boy that he's more likely to go to prison than to university when he's oder and see if he thinks that's a meaningless piece of information.
> 
> 'Too many people in the US are sent to prison' and 'too many black people in the US are sent to prison' are not contradictory statements.



Quite. For some kids, in the UK as in the US, finding that out early in life is like having a "born to lose" sign hung around your neck, with all the attendant consequences to how the person will see themselves.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I was countering the idea that the police were 'more supportive' of the EDL than BLM. All other reasons aside, they tend to be if they're liased with rather than not.



Liase with the police asking for permission to protest about the fact that black people cannot trust the police?

Engage brain before posting please.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Nice straw man.



Not a straw man.



Magnus McGinty said:


> Africans being synonymous with 'black people' it seems.



Not something I said.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Liase with the police asking for permission to protest about the fact that black people cannot trust the police?


Are you suggesting that if BLM wanted to march, and contacted the OB about routes, they would refuse, or somehow sabotage it?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> .
> 
> Do we think a Black Lives Matter march would have been afforded the same level of protection?



How would we know?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> No way, re throwing stuff. There was a massive march from Brixton to parliament square last year though, in the name of reparations. Roads closed by sheer number of people marching, police presence minimal and very arms length.



*EVERY* year. This year's one was all of a week and a bit ago.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Are you suggesting that if BLM wanted to march, and contacted the OB about routes, they would refuse, or somehow sabotage it?



I'm suggesting that BLM have very good reasons for not wanting to engage with the police.

Meanwhile our city council voted to ban the EDL march on Saturday. The police declined to enforce the ban and opted instead to dedicate vast resources to allowing the march to go ahead.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> How would we know?



Hence why I posed it as a question.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Are you suggesting that if BLM wanted to march, and contacted the OB about routes, they would refuse, or somehow sabotage it?



The Met have a lot of form for sabotaging anti-fascist protests, but not fascist ones. They go at least as far back as Mosley.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The Met have a lot of form for sabotaging anti-fascist protests, but not fascist ones. They go at least as far back as Mosley.


Even the easy ones to sabotage like Martin Webster's they have facilitated


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm suggesting that BLM have very good reasons for not wanting to engage with the police.


Sure, but on the one hand you seem to propose that the marchers that give notice to the police are given a route and assistance and that's unfair to the protesters who don't; and on the other, those that don't, wouldn't anyway. You want it both ways. 


> Meanwhile our city council voted to ban the EDL march on Saturday. The police declined to enforce the ban and opted instead to dedicate vast resources to allowing the march to go ahead.


Why?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Even the easy ones to sabotage like Martin Webster's they have facilitated



We (me and about a dozen mates) once sabotaged a local Webster - back when he lived in SW11 - march by not letting him out of the pub he was in. Him and his boys were quite distressed, but wouldn't take us on, as there were as many of us as there were of them.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Why?



How the hell should I know? But police have many long years of form for effectively siding with the fash.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Hence why I posed it as a question.



But you say BLM have good reasons not to liaise with the police which makes it a pretty daft question as you've admitted we'll never know the answer.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 8, 2016)

its in their nature. 'The lads go too far but they have a point and a right to make it'. Church and king outfits go hand in glove with police. Look at how Golden Dawn ended up with many members in the police apparatus in greece. Coincidence? I think not


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2016)

Am I missing something here? Those that plan or participate in direct action don't usually liaise with the police do they? For obvious reasons.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Am I missing something here? Those that plan or participate in direct action don't usually liaise with the police do they? For obvious reasons.


It varies. For example much afa activity by its nature saw no liaison while there was liaison with the police round the 1991 march through the east end because without it it would have been impossible to proceed. Depends on the event tbh.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Am I missing something here? Those that plan or participate in direct action don't usually liaise with the police do they? For obvious reasons.



So what was the point of making comparisons with a demo that had liaised with the police?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So what was the point of making comparisons with a demo that had liaised with the police?



By my understanding from what was posted the comparison was with regard the overall disruption caused and the aggressive/violent behaviour of some involved.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> By my understanding from what was posted the comparison was with regard the overall disruption caused.



And the police tolerance to one compared to the other.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And the police tolerance to one compared to the other.



See my edit. Overall disruption, violence and yes, no arrests.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> And a lot of refugee solidarity work and campaiging is focussed entirely on Syrians, when the majority of refugees entrering Europe are from Sudan, Eritrea, Ethiopia etc. The upshot of this is that when the government talks about maybe letting in a handful of children of families to the UK, it's only about Syrians.
> 
> The sudden increase in refugees leaving Syria did seem to coincide with the Guardian reading classes setting up facebook groups and loading rented vans with tinned food all of a sudden. Because now it's a crisis. It was a crisis for many years before that, but those of us working with refugees couldn't get anyone else to care about it.



The focus on Syrian refugees is partly down to the the fact that there is a very direct and current link to our involvement in the conflict in Syria.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> The focus on Syrian refugees is partly down to the the fact that there is a very direct and current link to our involvement in the conflict in Syria.


Oh yeah - how's that then? 

(Oh god, why did i ask?)


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Never heard of these inspirational barriers before, tell me more



I'm going to assume you know that was an auto correct of institutional but could not resist bringing it to my attention.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> The focus on Syrian refugees is partly down to the the fact that there is a very direct and current link to our involvement in the conflict in Syria.


What, as the former colonial power?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

.


----------



## A380 (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Returning to friday's actions, my friend who was arrested on friday and charged with obstructing highways is understandably upset that the very next day in the same city, hundreds of police from several different forces closed roads, businesses and attractions to allow <100 EDL to march through town. The disruption caused by this march was vastly greater than that caused by the BLM action, and despite the police presence EDL members were able to repeatedly throw missiles like eggs and bottles at the general public, including children, without being arrested. It goes without saying that the BLM actions were entirely peaceful.
> 
> Do we think a Black Lives Matter march would have been afforded the same level of protection? Bearing in mind their cause has considerable public support while the rump of the EDL are shunned even by the rest of the far right. A group of black protestors would certainly not have been able to throw stuff at people all day with police protection and without being arrested, not in a million years.


If you go to actions you should know that most of the arrests come later. It's what FIT and CCTV are for. It's also why people object so strongly to the naive posting "cool images" of actions on social media, including here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> I was basing my comment on what might be a faulty assumption that deaths crossing the Mediterranean were mostly Syrian and Afghan, as they make up the majority of people making that journey. I didn't find any figures on the nationalities of those who died but the route with most deaths is that used by African migrants.
> 
> Although it may be possible to make a case that more black people drown in the Mediterranean it still seems wrong to add it to issues BLM UK want to address as the causes are totally out of line with police racism and other inspirational barriers in the UK


Other institutional barriers? Barriers to what?


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

Butchersapron and Pickmans Model.

No time today to spend explaining every point.

Syrian refugees and Iraqi refugees increasingly following the Chilcot report are seen as fleeing conflicts that have been started by the West, US, UK and France in particular. That is why there is more media coverage and sympathy.  Refugees from Africa are perceived as fleeing conflicts of their own making. It may not be a wholly accurate picture but it is the one in many people's heads.  People don't want to look much further back than their grandparents time.

Regarding inspirational/ institutional barriers I mean access to work, healthcare, education, the right to walk while black without getting pulled up by the police.

There doesn't seem much point arguing over who has the most important cause. It is worth looking at how best to address the problems people face that prevent equality.

My issue is that protests will not stop things like this. 
Muslim couple removed from Delta flight: 'It was humiliating'

Perhaps you two could head to Australia and have the perfect Anarchist holiday.  Only joking about this a little.  Looking at their treatment of indigenous people is like going back in time.

No Cookies | The Courier Mail


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

A380 said:


> If you go to actions you should know that most of the arrests come later. It's what FIT and CCTV are for. It's also why people object so strongly to the naive posting "cool images" of actions on social media, including here.



I'm aware that people often get a knock at their door somewhere down the line, but where you've got ongoing violence against the public from a group who are already kettled by police then there's no reason not to arrest them on the spot. Antifascists would certainly get arrested in that situation, in fact they are often arrested on false charges if no actual crimes have taken place.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> Butchersapron and Pickmans Model.
> 
> No time today to spend explaining every point.
> 
> ...


You know nothing of why people are fleeing Syria.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> It is worth looking at how best to address the problems people face that prevent equality.


Yeh? What sort of equality have you in mind?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You know nothing of why people are fleeing Syria.



And you do?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> And you do?


Counter-attack at last. Syrians do.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Counter-attack at last. Syrians do.



Not at all. I'm just interested in your knowledge of the subject as you stated another poster knew nothing about why people are fleeing Syria.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Not at all. I'm just interested in your knowledge of the subject as you stated another poster knew nothing about why people are fleeing Syria.


perhaps in the first instance you might explore one of the threads about syria.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Counter-attack at last. Syrians do.



Really!! A survey from the political opponents of Assad. 

It is funny that when there is hard evidence, Wikileaks, that the US planned and executed regime change in Syria you choose to ignore it.

Deliberately ignoring facts just so the world remains within your narrow world view is not helping anyone.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 8, 2016)

*pulls up deck chair*


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh? What sort of equality have you in mind?



The sort where people have equal rights under law regardless of race, religion, gender and sexuality.  Where the legal system protects those rights and they give people equal opportunities to housing, economic opportunity, education, healthcare, personal safety and security.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2016)

Can you answer my question please.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 8, 2016)

poptyping said:


> *pulls up deck chair*


I will destroy this idiot on syrian refugees and and why they have happened if required . I've chose not to a number of times.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Not at all. I'm just interested in your knowledge of the subject as you stated another poster knew nothing about why people are fleeing Syria.



You are clearly not well read on Urban internet privilege.  The people who are actually from the internet, commonly know as the six figure posters, believe they have all the knowledge and power. They have invented everything and know everything but insist  the internet immigrants, who are generally know as the have a real lifers,  put in ten times as much effort when making a point, though they will still consider themselves and their views to be superior.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I will destroy this idiot on syrian refugees and and why they have happened if required . I've chose not to a number of times.



Why have they" happened"?  There are people paying for deckchairs. Is someone forcibly holding your hand back from the keyboard, you shouting I'm going to show him while they bend your fingers back telling you he's not worth it.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> You are clearly not well read on Urban internet privilege.  The people who are actually from the internet, commonly know as the six figure posters, believe they have all the knowledge and power. They have invented everything and know everything but insist  the internet immigrants, who are generally know as the have a real lifers,  put in ten times as much effort when making a point, though they will still consider themselves and their views to be superior.



Mea culpa!


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 8, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I will destroy this idiot on syrian refugees and and why they have happened if required . I've chose not to a number of times.



Oh but it would be so much fun if you did.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

Damn, I'm going to miss this while I cook and eat dinner.

I hope it is all in Butchers own words and addresses not only his views but also any opposing views.  Seems to be taking a long time for someone to jot down the things they know already.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

meanwhile, whilst we wait. Todays evening Standard:
"Six people have been killed with knives on the streets of London in the past seven days..They included several teenagers and darlene Horton the american tourist.. "


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> meanwhile, whilst we wait. Todays evening Standard:
> "Six people have been killed with knives on the streets of London in the past seven days..They included several teenagers and darlene Horton the american tourist.. "



How to stop knife crime?


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> How to stop knife crime?


The bit I missed out of the above ES quote was "leading to fresh calls for police to step up stop-and-search of those suspected of carrying knives". 
I don't know the answer, obviously.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> The bit I missed out of the above ES quote was "leading to fresh calls for police to step up stop-and-search of those suspected of carrying knives".
> I don't know the answer, obviously.



It isn't an easy question to answer, whatever action is taken it is likely to result in increased antipathy between Police and local communities.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

There's a little group of young people outside my window right now, standing there in silence leaving flowers at the spot where their 17 year old friend was killed on this day last year.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> You are clearly not well read on Urban internet privilege.  The people who are actually from the internet, commonly know as the six figure posters, believe they have all the knowledge and power. They have invented everything and know everything but insist  the internet immigrants, who are generally know as the have a real lifers,  put in ten times as much effort when making a point, though they will still consider themselves and their views to be superior.


yeh. being as you seem to think posting here is such a Bad Thing, why do you bother?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> Really!! A survey from the political opponents of Assad.
> 
> It is funny that when there is hard evidence, Wikileaks, that the US planned and executed regime change in Syria you choose to ignore it.
> 
> Deliberately ignoring facts just so the world remains within your narrow world view is not helping anyone.


i didn't want to point it out before, but there has been no regime change in syria. unless you know something to the contrary, of course. and most surveys will be from political opponents of assad being as there are so many of them. you an assad man then anju?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. being as you seem to think posting here is such a Bad Thing, why do you bother?



To take part in debate, the healthy exchange of ideas? Encourage a discursive network?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> To take part in debate, the healthy exchange of ideas? Encourage a discursive network?


let's wait and see what anju says.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i didn't want to point it out before, but there has been no regime change in syria. unless you know something to the contrary, of course. and most surveys will be from political opponents of assad being as there are so many of them. you an assad man then anju?




OK planned and implemented but not succeeded.

Not sure what an Assad man is.  It's not the same a choosing a pint. I am an anti western intervention for financial and geopolitical gains man.


----------



## inva (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> OK planned and implemented but not succeeded.
> 
> Not sure what an Assad man is.  It's not the same a choosing a pint. I am an anti western intervention for financial and geopolitical gains man.


how do you feel about Russian & Iranian intervention?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> OK planned and implemented but not succeeded.
> 
> Not sure what an Assad man is.  It's not the same a choosing a pint. I am an anti western intervention for financial and geopolitical gains man.


how has 'the west' planned and indeed implemented regime change in syria, being as assad is still president of syria? where is the actual attempt at regime change? who is 'the west' bombing in syria? is it a) the assad forces, or b) other people?

i'll ask you straight: do you support the regime of bashar al-assad, as your posts suggest?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

inva said:


> how do you feel about Russian & Iranian intervention?


anti-western therefore pro-eastern.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> let's wait and see what anju says.



Thanks for your patience.  I post here because it is the most appropriate place I know for online discussion of these issues.  I learn a bit and get to hear the views of people I might not have contact in real life. Also, I find you and your friends interesting on many levels.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> anti-western therefore pro-eastern.



I am confused by your desire to both hear my answers and answer for me. 

I think it is time you answered a question. Who do you support in Syria?


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

inva said:


> how do you feel about Russian & Iranian intervention?



I feel their current intervention is a consequence of US attempts to destabilise Syria.


----------



## inva (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> I feel their current intervention is a consequence of US attempts to destabilise Syria.


bingo! politics from the blurb on a Risk box.
Assadist slime


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

inva said:


> bingo! politics from the blurb on a Risk box.
> Assadist slime



OK, do you believe that the anti Assad people of Syria only wanted to put a democratic system in place? There is no one side that can  be said to be the 'good' side.

Right now the only realistic solution seems to be for Assad to return to power. If you have a workable alternative I would love to hear it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> I am confused by your desire to both hear my answers and answer for me.
> 
> I think it is time you answered a question. Who do you support in Syria?


ypg


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> Right now the only realistic solution seems to be for Assad to return to power.


yeh. you do know assad hasn't actually resigned?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2016)

Okay... let's be clear here...apart from fleeing Assad's regime are people saying that the 'topical/most recent' sympathy towards Syrian refugees is not because the UK amongst other European nations has had more than a hamfisted HAND in fucking with the stability of the Middle East in general? Point being, e know what meddling/action has been happening it has had coverage, people have marched against these interventions, Aylan Kurdi, people that look more like us etc...


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> ypg



So just anyone who shares your politics.  The whole country would need to be in favour of this for it to work, so it is not viable.


----------



## inva (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> OK, do you believe that the anti Assad people of Syria only wanted to put a democratic system in place? There is no one side that can  be said to be the 'good' side.
> 
> Right now the only realistic solution seems to be for Assad to return to power. If you have a workable alternative I would love to hear it.


Assad never gave them a chance when he started shooting them down in the streets.
yeah, really 'realistic' and 'workable' to expect people he's been murdering, torturing and bombing to accept the dictatorship. It's not for me to have an alternative, I'm not there, it's not up to me - what would be the point?

e2a: that's the last I'll say on it here as there's a Syria thread in the world politics forum where the discussion should probably be.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> So just anyone who shares your politics.  The whole country would need to be in favour of this for it to work, so it is not viable.


yeh but you support the barrel-bombing opthalmologist-butcher of damascus and now we've established that (and your ignorance on whether he is in power) i don't see what you have to add to any discussion on the syrian civil war.

incidentally my politics and those of the ypg are not the same.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. you do know assad hasn't actually resigned?




Yes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes.


yes, now you do.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Okay... let's be clear here...apart from fleeing Assad's regime are people saying that the 'topical/most recent' sympathy towards Syrian refugees is not because the UK amongst other European nations has had more than a hamfisted HAND in fucking with the stability of the Middle East in general? Point being, e know what meddling/action has been happening it has had coverage, people have marched against these interventions, Aylan Kurdi, people that look more like us etc...



Sadly it is quite possible that many do not care or even consider to think about the deeper context in which so much of this is taking place.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> The bit I missed out of the above ES quote was "leading to fresh calls for police to step up stop-and-search of those suspected of carrying knives".
> I don't know the answer, obviously.



I would like to see weapons only stop and search where anything else found could be ignored, with targeting of the most affected areas and the stops being monitored.

They already have monitoring of the vehicle stops that are carried out with number plate recognition cameras and taking a similar approach to weapons checks might prevent any backlash. 

Probably a bit idealistic but I see no orher ways to halt the carrying of weapons.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Sure, but on the one hand you seem to propose that the marchers that give notice to the police are given a route and assistance and that's unfair to the protesters who don't; and on the other, those that don't, wouldn't anyway. You want it both ways.
> 
> Why?



Most likely, because the cost of policing a bunch of coked-up boneheads round town in 5s and 10s (which is what would have happened if they were stopped from marching) would have cost a lot more in time and resources than escorting the fuckwads from A to B to coach station.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And the police tolerance to one compared to the other.



An easily-supported and quite established tolerance.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, now you do.



You should stop this foolishness.  You are suggesting I actively support Assad in one post and implying I thought he had resigned in another.  This is not worth the price of a deckchair.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> I would like to see weapons only stop and search where anything else found could be ignored, with targeting of the most affected areas and the stops being monitored.
> 
> They already have monitoring of the vehicle stops that are carried out with number plate recognition cameras and taking a similar approach to weapons checks might prevent any backlash.
> 
> Probably a bit idealistic but I see no orher ways to halt the carrying of weapons.



This is quite possible, it would likely take a decision at a a particular level, to provide some protection for the Police engaged in facilitating the process. The decision to arrest is fundamentally (and perhaps somewhat ideally) that of each individual Police Constable.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

Monitoring wouldn't make any difference to the lived experience of such an endevor. You'd have 'targeted' road / pavement blocks all over certain poorer parts of south london for instance (and elsewhere), stopping and searching young black men.
A bit idealistic, or a bit shallow maybe, yes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> You should stop this foolishness.  You are suggesting I actively support Assad in one post and implying I thought he had resigned in another.  This is not worth the price of a deckchair.


no one has said anything about paying for a deckchair except you. but yes, let's end your foolishness on this thread and carry on discussion of syria on a syria thread.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

[Edited - post was incorrect.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> The focus on Syrian refugees is partly down to the the fact that there is a very direct and current link to our involvement in the conflict in Syria.



I don't agree. I'd contend that the focus derives from a number of different historical and geo-political sources, which include, but aren't limited to: visibility; political opportunism (Syria has been a _bete noire_ of state security for far longer than the several years of the current conflict. Highlighting what is happening to the people on the ground is a move in the game to gain influence in expat communities); Racism (some of our institutions still appear to operate a "sliding scale" with regard to newsworthiness and skin colour - the darker you are, the less newsworthy. Most (middle-class) Syrian refugees and light brown, and therefore more newsgenic); history (the UK has many expat communities from MENA countries, including Syria, Lebanon and Libya) and class (many black refugees from sub-Saharan African states are viewed - usually incorrectly - as destitute working-class economic migrants, whereas brown refugees from MENA states are viewed as middle-class refugees fleeing conflict, and amenable to being incorporated into the _bourgeoisie_ of the state they settle in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Not true, Poptyping made explicit reference to a deckchair.


for the hard of thinking NO ONE HAS SAID ANYTHING ABOUT *PAYING* FOR A DECKCHAIR EXCEPT ANJU


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

How much are they?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> The sort where people have equal rights under law regardless of race, religion, gender and sexuality.  Where the legal system protects those rights and they give people equal opportunities to housing, economic opportunity, education, healthcare, personal safety and security.



So, liberal democracy, then?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 8, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Not true, Poptyping made explicit reference to a deckchair.



I didn't say anything about paying for one.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 8, 2016)

Lol. I'd want my money back.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> How much are they?


dunno, it's a virtual deckchair, no one pays for them


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> Monitoring wouldn't make any difference to the lived experience of such an endevor. You'd have 'targeted' road / pavement blocks all over certain poorer parts of south london for instance (and elsewhere), stopping and searching young black men.
> A bit idealistic, or a bit shallow maybe, yes.



I am not talking about regular fixed place stops. I meant something like the traffic stops I mentioned. No targeting of any particular group, either everyone or evey 4th person. It could even be done with walk through metal detectors.  I know it sounds extreme but it is working towards something that most people, including many that carry a knife for protection / because everyone does. 

The alternative is that more people get stabbed and then even more start arming themselves. The only surprising thing is that more people are not dying.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> for the hard of thinking NO ONE HAS SAID ANYTHING ABOUT *PAYING* FOR A DECKCHAIR EXCEPT ANJU



Actually, I'll apologise as I mis-read the point about paying. Sorry about that - I'll edit the original post. I'll even ignore the pointed language.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> dunno, it's a virtual deckchair, no one pays for them


Thanks


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Actually, I'll apologise as I mis-read the point about paying. Sorry about that - I'll edit the original post. I'll even ignore the pointed language.


apologies are always welcome


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> To take part in debate, the healthy exchange of ideas? Encourage a discursive network?




Fie, and back to your Foucault, you vile beast!!!


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> apologies are always welcome



When wrong hubris is no defence.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fie, and back to your Foucault, you vile beast!!!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> When wrong hubris is no defence.


and i hope you'll bear that wise adage in mind in future


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> I am not talking about regular fixed place stops. I meant something like the traffic stops I mentioned. No targeting of any particular group, either everyone or evey 4th person. It could even be done with walk through metal detectors.  I know it sounds extreme but it is working towards something that most people, including many that carry a knife for protection / because everyone does.
> 
> The alternative is that more people get stabbed and then even more start arming themselves. The only surprising thing is that more people are not dying.


"no targeting of any particular group" ? I don't think the met police have the resources for such showmanship.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

I didn't realise there were people from the deckchair owning portion of society here.

I take full responsibility for the deckchair problems our society has been suffering from for too long and wholeheartedly apologise for any offence my remarks about the hiring of deckchairs may have caused.


----------



## weltweit (Aug 8, 2016)

The protesters did something clever to attach themselves to each other. Were I the police I might have been tempted to move them out of the way of the traffic and then just leave them connected, let them sort themselves out in due course.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> I didn't realise there were people from the deckchair owning portion of society here.
> 
> I take full responsibility for the deckchair problems our society has been suffering from for too long and wholeheartedly apologise for any offence my remarks about the hiring of deckchairs may have caused.


Don't worry about it.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> "no targeting of any particular group" ? I don't think the met police have the resources for such showmanship.



Probably not, or the desire. 

Monitoring does work, though not always in preventing abuse or violence by the police but it can be used to help hold them to account.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> Probably not, or the desire.
> 
> Monitoring does work, though not always in preventing abuse or violence by the police but it can be used to help hold them to account.


I'll probably get shot down in flames for saying it but the whole problem of black lives mattering less than white lives has, i think, got to be seen way broader than just pointing at institutional racism in the police. People are being killed for an underweight bag of weed or for looking at someone else's girlfriend the wrong way. The police and any number of stopping and searchings won't solve that problem.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, liberal democracy, then?



If it was possible without it descending into a sort of modern  day fiefdom.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> I'll probably get shot down in flames for saying it but the whole problem of black lives mattering less than white lives has, i think, got to be seen way broader than just pointing at institutional racism in the police. People are being killed for an underweight bag of weed or for looking at someone else's girlfriend the wrong way. The police and any number of stopping and searchings won't solve that problem.



Whilst I fundamentally reject the BLM movement, your widening the question of possible cause and effect is *not* to be 'shot down in flames'.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> dunno, it's a virtual deckchair, no one pays for them



You mean you've all been getting your deckchairs for free?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Most likely, because the cost of policing a bunch of coked-up boneheads round town in 5s and 10s (which is what would have happened if they were stopped from marching) would have cost a lot more in time and resources than escorting the fuckwads from A to B to coach station.



What about taking no part and letting the general public put the lot of them in the nearest canal?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> I'll probably get shot down in flames for saying it but the whole problem of black lives mattering less than white lives has, i think, got to be seen way broader than just pointing at institutional racism in the police.


 As someone who has no direct experience of institutionalised racism as a Black or Brown person in the many ways it infiltrates one's life, personal experiences, outlook, sense of self, local and international relationships/kinship/identity, hopes for the future, interactions with and expectations of others towards you  I'd say your perspective is limited.

There are no flames in this response. Even though you set it up that any challenge could be seen as such.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> As someone who has no direct experience of institutionalised racism as a Black or Brown person in the many ways it infiltrates one's life, personal experiences, outlook, sense of self, hopes for the future, interactions with and expectations of others towards you  I'd say your perspective is limited.



Do you honestly believe this?


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> As someone who has no direct experience of institutionalised racism as a Black or Brown person in the many ways it infiltrates one's life, outlook, sense of self, hopes for the future, interactions with and expectations of other towards you  I'd say your perspective is limited.


Very limited yes. I know I don't know anything but am hoping to get a bit less ignorant. I happened to witness that boy dying here on my street, a year ago today. I've never seen anyone die a violent death before and have been struggling in some way to understand how and why that happened, to make some sort of sense of it. Not there yet obviously.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't agree. I'd contend that the focus derives from a number of different historical and geo-political sources, which include, but aren't limited to: visibility; political opportunism (Syria has been a _bete noire_ of state security for far longer than the several years of the current conflict. Highlighting what is happening to the people on the ground is a move in the game to gain influence in expat communities); Racism (some of our institutions still appear to operate a "sliding scale" with regard to newsworthiness and skin colour - the darker you are, the less newsworthy. Most (middle-class) Syrian refugees and light brown, and therefore more newsgenic); history (the UK has many expat communities from MENA countries, including Syria, Lebanon and Libya) and class (many black refugees from sub-Saharan African states are viewed - usually incorrectly - as destitute working-class economic migrants, whereas brown refugees from MENA states are viewed as middle-class refugees fleeing conflict, and amenable to being incorporated into the _bourgeoisie_ of the state they settle in.



I did say partly based on recent events so wouldn't disagree with the reasons / potential reasons you suggest but in terms of current public opinion I think what we see in the news has a big influence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> You mean you've all been getting your deckchairs for free?


yes. and you should see editor about a refund if you've been paying.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> What about taking no part and letting the general public put the lot of them in the nearest canal?



Frank, how many times do you need to be told that only the police are allowed to indiscriminately murder people?


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> As someone who has no direct experience of institutionalised racism as a Black or Brown person in the many ways it infiltrates one's life, personal experiences, outlook, sense of self, local and international relationships/kinship/identity, hopes for the future, interactions with and expectations of others towards you  I'd say your perspective is limited.
> 
> There are no flames in this response. Even though you set it up that any challenge could be seem as such.


True. Though Its effects so many people. Would you raise children in an area with high knife crime? Would you afford them the same freedoms that most kids elsewhere take for granted. Like I dunno walking into the next postcode and not getting shanked. Fuck knows what to do about it, though.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Frank, how many times do you need to be told that only the police are allowed to indiscriminately murder people?



I didn't say murder, just send them for an involuntary swim. Most of them look like the excercise would do them good.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

Gang crisis centres in each affected area. Maned 24 7. Paid workers who become ingrained in the problem and offer ways out.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> Very limited yes. I know I don't know anything but I'm trying to get a bit less ignorant. I happened to witness that boy dying here on my street, a year ago today, and have been struggling in some limited way to understand how and why that happened, to make some sort of sense of it. Not there yet obviously.



Join the club...most of us will never be able to accept that kind of tragedy/witnessed trauma...it defies and insults what it is to be human, that life is so cheapened, gone so soon etc.. That people can arrive to feel about themselves and eachother.

What I quoted was a statement from you...which said something quite different....in response, that people often refer to their treatment by police as evidence of inequality isn't a surprise given it's the most unsubtle/direct way people experience it day to day.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I didn't say murder, just send them for an involuntary swim. Most of them look like the excercise would do them good.



So, let me get this straight, you're such a fucking lightweight that given the opportunity to liquidate - geddit? -  several dozen boneheads, you wouldn't? What are you, some sort of liberal?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> True. Though Its effects so many people. Would you raise children in an area with high knife crime? Would you afford them the same freedoms that most kids elsewhere take for granted. Like I dunno walking into the next postcode and not getting shanked. Fuck knows what to do about it, though.



Many people don't have a choice. One stabbing is too many for most also. I grew up in a time where I didn't fear going into another postcode, I didn't need to have a warzone mentality...I did fear my older brothers would make it home at night though, mostly for not being White...skinheads, random arseholes, the police.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Gang crisis centres in each affected area. Maned 24 7. Paid workers who become ingrained in the problem and offer ways out.



Part of the problem is the continued failure of local and national governments to devote any resources at all to these neighbourhoods. But I agree that if resources were to be targetted at areas suffering from gang violence then the people doing the work must be locals, not police.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> I'll probably get shot down in flames for saying it but the whole problem of black lives mattering less than white lives has, i think, got to be seen way broader than just pointing at institutional racism in the police. People are being killed for an underweight bag of weed or for looking at someone else's girlfriend the wrong way. The police and any number of stopping and searchings won't solve that problem.



The reporting of knife crime is not consistent and not always national.  There are a lot of incidents that are not reported on and a lot that are not even reported to the police. It is generally restricted to economically deprived areas. There are plenty of white areas that have similar levels of violence to more diverse areas. Poverty is the defining characteristic.  

Nationally we have an average of close to 2 murders a day but only hear about selected ones.  Plus of course many more stabbing incidents daily.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

We need to get these fucking tories out.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Join the club...most of us will never be able to accept that kind of tragedy/witnessed trauma...it defies and insults what it is to be human, that life is so cheapened, gone so soon etc.. That people can arrive to feel about themselves and eachother.
> 
> What I quoted was a statement from you...which said something quite different....in response, that people often refer to their treatment by police as evidence of inequality isn't a surprise given it's the most unsubtle/direct way people experience it day to day.


Exactly. That life is so cheapened, and that people can feel that way about themselves and eachother. The worst bit of witnessing it was seeing the small bunch of kids that came along after the police cordon was removed to spit and take selfies on the exact spot where he died.
And for sure there's a feedback loop, the state / police / society constantly tells a person that their life is worth less eventually that becomes acted out becomes true.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Part of the problem is the continued failure of local and national governments to devote any resources at all to these neighbourhoods. But I agree that if resources were to be targetted at areas suffering from gang violence then the people doing the work must be locals, not police.


I agree. So what could be the polices role?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> I agree. So what could be the polices role?



Stop persecuting black and brown kids?


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

Serve and protect their community. I think some do, some don't.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> Exactly.



So why did you fear being shot down in flames?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Serve and protect their community. I think some do, some don't.



It's rarely their communities though is it? Nobody on a copper's salary would want to live round here.


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> Right now the only realistic solution seems to be for Assad to return to power. If you have a workable alternative I would love to hear it.


Brilliant, this liberal fuckwit is aligning the scum like CR


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Many people don't have a choice. One stabbing is too many for most also. I grew up in a time where I didn't fear going into another postcode, I didn't need to have a warzone mentality...I did fear my older brothers would make it home at night though, mostly for not being White...skinheads, random arseholes, the police.



I live in social housing in an area with a lot of knife crime. At least 3 young men murdered this year, one of whom my 15 year old hung out with.  I have daughters so do not worry about violence so much.

It is different for the parents of young men. My  sister in law would not let her 16 year old go to an event in North London because of the potential for trouble with him being from South London. We did not have this when I was younger. There were estates you would avoid but traveling to a party in a different area was not seen as dangerous.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's rarely their communities though is it? Nobody on a copper's salary would want to live round here.


Fair point.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> I live in social housing in an area with a lot of knife crime. At least 3 young men murdered this year, one of whom my 15 year old hung out with.  I have daughters so do not worry about violence so much.
> 
> It is different for the parents of young men. My  sister in law would not let her 16 year old go to an event in North London because of the potential for trouble with him being from South London. We did not have this when I was younger. There were estates you would avoid but traveling to a party in a different area was not seen as dangerous.



I know.


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Brilliant, this liberal fuckwit is aligning the scum like CR



I said seems to be the only solution. Why do people feel it is OK to just make snide remarks when they disagree with things.

Is there a viable alternative or are you in favour of a never ending war, which seems to be the alternative on offer at the moment.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> So why did you fear being shot down in flames?


Because I thought that broadening the conversation to include something like this, an instance of the massive loss of young lives week in week out, would be seen as me somehow absolving the police / state / society of responsibility.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> I live in social housing in an area with a lot of knife crime. At least 3 young men murdered this year, one of whom my 15 year old hung out with.  I have daughters so do not worry about violence so much.
> 
> It is different for the parents of young men. My  sister in law would not let her 16 year old go to an event in North London because of the potential for trouble with him being from South London. We did not have this when I was younger. There were estates you would avoid but traveling to a party in a different area was not seen as dangerous.


A woman up the road from me is not going to let her kid go out until she is 16. I tried to hint that that might be a tad more damaging for a relatively low risk fear.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> A woman up the road from me is not going to let her kid go out until she is 16. I tried to hint that that might be a tad more damaging for a relatively low risk fear.



For one thing that kid is gonna have zero street smarts when she is finally allowed out.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> For one thing that kid is gonna have zero street smarts when she is finally allowed out.


Yep. 

She had the same. School, church, homework, bed, repeat. 

Sad, in my view.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

As.long as stay safe, London is one of the most enriching, exciting places to grow up. I remember the positives.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> As.long as stay safe, London is one of the most enriching, exciting places to grow up. I remember the positives.


Have you got kids? (you don't have to answer that, obvioulsy). I don't and am quite happy here but if I did have children I reckon I'd probably try to move, for fear of becoming like that woman you mention, too scared to let them out. There was a local issue here (SE5) recently, about closing roads for purported environmental reasons, and there were a LOT of parents who did not want their children making their own way home from school, because they were worried about them getting stabbed.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 8, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> An easily-supported and quite established tolerance.



True. But I doubt they'd be supportive of major roads being closed by direct action regardless of who's doing it.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

I do, two. 

Neither at school age. The middle classes, even the ones with bigger homes, tend to leave, like you say. Great for being edgy and scaring the visiting  parents in twenties - off sharpish before secondary age


----------



## Anju (Aug 8, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> A woman up the road from me is not going to let her kid go out until she is 16. I tried to hint that that might be a tad more damaging for a relatively low risk fear.



It is scary as a parent when your kids want to start heading off on their own.  It is something that decent provision of youth facilities and open spaced which have been designed with safety in mind can really help.

Our kids started going out from about 9 years old, only because there was an adventure playground nearby.  This means that they got to know kids from the local area rather than just from school.  This kind of facility lets kids get to know each other before secondary school and from other estates, so the whole area feels safe because you have friends everywhere or at least know and are known by people. 

Anyone not letting their children out until 16 is in for big trouble.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> Our kids started going out from about 9 years old, only because there was an adventure playground nearby.  This means that they got to know kids from the local area rather than just from school.  This kind of facility lets kids get to know each other before secondary school and from other estates, so the whole area feels safe because you have friends everywhere or at least know and are known by people.



That makes sense. And makes a whole nother level of wrongness to the fact that the adventure playground near me, in a 'hotspot' of postcode-related stabbings, has been closed for months with a view to being sold off by lambeth council and turned into flats.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

Anju said:


> It is scary as a parent when your kids want to start heading off on their own.  It is something that decent provision of youth facilities and open spaced which have been designed with safety in mind can really help.
> 
> Our kids started going out from about 9 years old, only because there was an adventure playground nearby.  This means that they got to know kids from the local area rather than just from school.  This kind of facility lets kids get to know each other before secondary school and from other estates, so the whole area feels safe because you have friends everywhere or at least know and are known by people.
> 
> Anyone not letting their children out until 16 is in for big trouble.


Playing with freedom as a kid away from adults is one lifes greatest joys


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> That makes sense. And makes a whole nother level of wrongness to the fact that the adventure playground near me, in a 'hotspot' of postcode-related stabbings, has been closed for months with a view to being sold off by lambeth council and turned into flats.


Cunts


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Cunts


The cuntiest of all possible cuntishness it really is. 
Never thought before about the fact that this is where you might meet and make friends with people from outside your own postcode. Locked up & silent for months now, took these by clambering in the other week.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> The cuntiest of all possible cuntishness it really is.
> Never thought before about the fact that this is where you might meet and make friends with people from outside your own postcode. Locked up & silent for months now, took these by clambering in the other week.
> 
> View attachment 90485 View attachment 90486


Its almost like they went to Cunt School


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

Sorry for the c bombs, but lambeth council deserve it.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 8, 2016)

.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Sorry for the c bombs, but lambeth council deserve it.


It's not sold yet , the adventure playground. Not a done deal. If you try hard you can still hope that maybe their plans could be resisted by a concerted vocal fight.


----------



## sealion (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> That makes sense. And makes a whole nother level of wrongness to the fact that the adventure playground near me, in a 'hotspot' of postcode-related stabbings, has been closed for months with a view to being sold off by lambeth council and turned into flats.


Was it closed because of the stabbings? Or was it "due to funding cuts in a time of austerity" the usual council spiel.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> The cuntiest of all possible cuntishness it really is.
> Never thought before about the fact that this is where you might meet and make friends with people from outside your own postcode. Locked up & silent for months now, took these by clambering in the other week.
> 
> View attachment 90485 View attachment 90486


You mean you had an adventure


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> You mean you had an adventure


I did, mini-adventure. Quite regularly do, the view from the top of the climbing frame thing is great, you can see the whole car scrap yard and the railway line and treetops. nice spot for a sit down.


----------



## bimble (Aug 8, 2016)

Sea Lion said:


> Was it closed because of the stabbings? Or was it "due to funding cuts in a time of austerity" the usual council spiel.


Oh, entirely the latter, it is the biggest bit of council owned land in the area and they want to sell it for cash.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 9, 2016)

Anju said:


> We did not have this when I was younger. There were estates you would avoid but traveling to a party in a different area was not seen as dangerous.








It shouldn't undermine what is happening to point out that all this omg its getting worse than ever is not true.  I knew loads of people who got cut when I was a kid, including me, what's happened is fear of things like this has increased, and also they are taken more seriously.  Try walking into bradford nick bleeding on a saturday night and saying you'd been beaten up in the 80s and when they'd stopped laughing they'd probably have nicked you for wasting police time.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 9, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> We need to get these fucking tories out.


they will require actual killing. They won't put away the toys because you ask nicely. The people they employ are well armed and more to the point, loyal.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 9, 2016)

Statement from Greater Manchester Momentum BAME Caucus re: Manchester Councillor’s Innapropriate & Discriminatory Social Media

MANCHESTER AND TRAFFORD MOMENTUM·MONDAY, 8 AUGUST 2016


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Statement from Greater Manchester Momentum BAME Caucus re: Manchester Councillor’s Innapropriate & Discriminatory Social Media
> 
> MANCHESTER AND TRAFFORD MOMENTUM·MONDAY, 8 AUGUST 2016



The screens are shit but it's not your silent white isolation cell sensory deprivation is it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2016)

Anju said:


> The reporting of knife crime is not consistent and not always national.  There are a lot of incidents that are not reported on and a lot that are not even reported to the police. It is generally restricted to economically deprived areas. There are plenty of white areas that have similar levels of violence to more diverse areas. Poverty is the defining characteristic.
> 
> Nationally we have an average of close to 2 murders a day but only hear about selected ones.  Plus of course many more stabbing incidents daily.



Sorry, but "It is generally restricted to economically deprived areas" is inaccurate. One of the features of the resurgence of knife crime, and of the carrying of bladed weapons generally, is that it is multi-demographic. There are kids in "good" schools in "good" areas carrying knives and stabbing each other. The difference is in how this stuff gets reported, and that is very much tied to perceptions of crime, and even to how perceptions of crime can affect local economies.  There's also the poor thinking of the media and its consumers that views every black youth who dies from a stab wound as being from an economically-deprived area, and probably a gang member.  The reality is that, like so many unnecessary deaths, the majority are down to the victim being in the wrong place at the wrong time/intersecting with an arsehole who wants to prove his manhood by hurting someone.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2016)

bimble said:


> Have you got kids? (you don't have to answer that, obvioulsy). I don't and am quite happy here but if I did have children I reckon I'd probably try to move, for fear of becoming like that woman you mention, too scared to let them out. There was a local issue here (SE5) recently, about closing roads for purported environmental reasons, and there were a LOT of parents who did not want their children making their own way home from school, because they were worried about them getting stabbed.



The issue isn't that loads of kids are getting stabbed up, the issue is the fear that worries about kids getting stabbed-up generates, and how it affects people. Some people flee, usually those who are economically able to. This in itself can have a deleterious effect on an area, by reducing the economic diversity of an area, and affecting the local infrastructure. Others react in a nihilistic manner - if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. Other still, react by attempting to shore up local infrastructure - Neighbourhood Watch, community escort services for schoolkids etc - what they all have in common is that they're generally reactions to heightened perceptions, as opposed to reactions to lived reality, and they *can* be reactions that make the perceptions become a self-fulfilling prophecy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2016)

smokedout said:


> It shouldn't undermine what is happening to point out that all this omg its getting worse than ever is not true.  I knew loads of people who got cut when I was a kid, including me, what's happened is fear of things like this has increased, and also they are taken more seriously.  Try walking into bradford nick bleeding on a saturday night and saying you'd been beaten up in the 80s and when they'd stopped laughing they'd probably have nicked you for wasting police time.



Absolutely. For most crimes of violence, rates of reporting are up, and incidences are down (sexual assaults being the depressing exception). Fear of crime, however, has consistently climbed for the last 20 years, mostly ramped up by simplistic media reportage and the laziness that leads to sensationalism triumphing over fact.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 9, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Absolutely. For most crimes of violence, rates of reporting are up, and incidences are down (sexual assaults being the depressing exception). Fear of crime, however, has consistently climbed for the last 20 years, mostly ramped up by simplistic media reportage and the laziness that leads to sensationalism triumphing over fact.



Which sadly serves several agendas, not least the demonization of young black men, and young people generally, but also calls for more stop and search (as seen on this thread), more laws, more prosecutions.  Equally the claim that young people are worse than ever before, and something must be done, is really a siren call of capital, forming the justification for more workfare, mandatory training schemes and benefit cuts, as well as changes to education to make working class school leavers 'job ready' and prepared/forced to take any job, no matter how shit, or they will fall into the spiral of gangs/drugs/stabbings/rap music or whatever the current moral panic is.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 9, 2016)

Perhaps IDS puts it best 



> I commissioned this report on street gangs because I had become concerned
> about the chaotic nature of the approach to what was often glibly referred to as
> gang violence. I and others at the CSJ felt that we needed to better understand
> what was really happening on our streets, otherwise we as a society stood in
> ...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 9, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Perhaps IDS puts it best



And his solution of course was, 'more deprivation'.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 9, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sorry, but "It is generally restricted to economically deprived areas" is inaccurate. One of the features of the resurgence of knife crime, and of the carrying of bladed weapons generally, is that it is multi-demographic. There are kids in "good" schools in "good" areas carrying knives and stabbing each other.



Michael Gove was accused of 'stabbing Bojo (his street name)' in the back' but I'm guessing this isn't what you are referring to.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 9, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Michael Gove was accused of 'stabbing Bojo (his street name)' in the back' but I'm guessing this isn't what you are referring to.


Isaw that more as a flying kick delivered to an opponents back. He hasn't bled nearly enough.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Michael Gove was accused of 'stabbing Bojo (his street name)' in the back' but I'm guessing this isn't what you are referring to.



Unfortunately, no. Pob stabbing Johnson, whether in his back, his front or his eye, would  have been a social gain, rather than a crime, IMHO.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2016)

smokedout said:


> Which sadly serves several agendas, not least the demonization of young black men, and young people generally, but also calls for more stop and search (as seen on this thread), more laws, more prosecutions.  Equally the claim that young people are worse than ever before, and something must be done, is really a siren call of capital...



...and a song that's been sung for as long as modern capitalism has been around, manifest in compulsory schooling to exercise social control over children who could no longer be exploited for the surplus value of their labour, and reflected in the sensationalism around urban youth gangs throughout the Victorian era.



> ...forming the justification for more workfare, mandatory training schemes and benefit cuts, as well as changes to education to make working class school leavers 'job ready' and prepared/forced to take any job, no matter how shit, or they will fall into the spiral of gangs/drugs/stabbings/rap music or whatever the current moral panic is.



If the youth can't be exploited one way, another way will always be found. Shameful, but a fact.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 9, 2016)

What period would you identify as the start of modern capitalism?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 9, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sorry, but "It is generally restricted to economically deprived areas" is inaccurate. One of the features of the resurgence of knife crime, and of the carrying of bladed weapons generally, is that it is multi-demographic. There are kids in "good" schools in "good" areas carrying knives and stabbing each other.



I suppose there are stats that illustrate this surge in 'Toff on Toff' teen murders then?


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 9, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> 'Toff on Toff'


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 9, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> What period would you identify as the start of modern capitalism?


enclosures acts. Industrial revolution. That thing with the tulips. Triangle slave trade. Its not a definable point as I understand it but rather a transition from fuedalism to capitalism. I'll also chuck the putney debates and olliver cromwell into the mix. Because what conversation is complete without discussion of the Levellers?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> I suppose there are stats that illustrate this surge in 'Toff on Toff' teen murders then?



"Toff on toff"? Who said anything about that?


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 9, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Michael Gove was accused of 'stabbing Bojo (his street name)' in the back' but I'm guessing this isn't what you are referring to.


Boris is part of the Tottenham Mandem and Gove is a former leader of Gipset.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 9, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> enclosures acts. Industrial revolution. That thing with the tulips. Triangle slave trade. Its not a definable point as I understand it but rather a transition from fuedalism to capitalism. I'll also chuck the putney debates and olliver cromwell into the mix. Because what conversation is complete without discussion of the Levellers?



Thanks for that, always helps to see how questions are understood and framed.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 9, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Thanks for that, always helps to see how questions are understood and framed.


you are welcome. Its a question that has vexed me often enough. Theres nowhere to put a pointy finger precisely because it was process rather than revolution


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> What period would you identify as the start of modern capitalism?


Early modern


----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 9, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> What period would you identify as the start of modern capitalism?



I always broadly see the time of Elizabeth I's reign as the bridge between Feudalism and Capitalism (in Britain, anyway) but that's because I like making lazy historical approximations.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 9, 2016)

Beginning of industrial revolution's a handy one as Dotty mentioned - I understand there was no mass unemployment before then.


----------



## Anju (Aug 10, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sorry, but "It is generally restricted to economically deprived areas" is inaccurate. One of the features of the resurgence of knife crime, and of the carrying of bladed weapons generally, is that it is multi-demographic. There are kids in "good" schools in "good" areas carrying knives and stabbing each other. The difference is in how this stuff gets reported, and that is very much tied to perceptions of crime, and even to how perceptions of crime can affect local economies.  There's also the poor thinking of the media and its consumers that views every black youth who dies from a stab wound as being from an economically-deprived area, and probably a gang member.  The reality is that, like so many unnecessary deaths, the majority are down to the victim being in the wrong place at the wrong time/intersecting with an arsehole who wants to prove his manhood by hurting someone.



I agree that it can happen to anyone and anywhere but the anywhere tends to be in economically deprived areas. I cannot find it now but I was shown a map of London boroughs showing violent incidents and there was a strong correlation between poorer areas and levels of all crime.

I am aware of the reporting issues, as we have close to 2 murders per day nationwide and reporting focus is ridiculously skewed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2016)

Anju said:


> I agree that it can happen to anyone and anywhere but the anywhere tends to be in economically deprived areas. I cannot find it now but I was shown a map of London boroughs showing violent incidents and there was a strong correlation between poorer areas and levels of all crime.



Much is misleading, though. Where crimes take place often does not signify that either victim or assailant are local to that _locale_. For example, Coldharbour Ward in Brixton has a high rate of violent crime if you look at the Met's crime maps, including lots of assaults. What the maps don't tell you is that the majority of those assaults are "tourist on tourist" - visitors to Brixton's nightlife getting punchy with each other after a few too many cocktails.

People look at the presented data, but they seldom look at the raw data. It's very easy to swing the *interpretation* of data to "prove" just about any social policy point - as proven by the notorious "black males more likely to be muggers" fantasy of the 1970s.



> I am aware of the reporting issues, as we have close to 2 murders per day nationwide and reporting focus is ridiculously skewed.



Always has been, and always will be. In terms of actually representing fact, our media are ridiculously selective, and appear to take an approach to crime similar to Cesare Lombroso's over a century ago.


----------



## Anju (Aug 10, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Much is misleading, though. Where crimes take place often does not signify that either victim or assailant are local to that _locale_. For example, Coldharbour Ward in Brixton has a high rate of violent crime if you look at the Met's crime maps, including lots of assaults. What the maps don't tell you is that the majority of those assaults are "tourist on tourist" - visitors to Brixton's nightlife getting punchy with each other after a few too many cocktails.
> 
> People look at the presented data, but they seldom look at the raw data. It's very easy to swing the *interpretation* of data to "prove" just about any social policy point - as proven by the notorious "black males more likely to be muggers" fantasy of the 1970s.
> 
> ...



I hadn't considered that, though Brixton is an unusual case, as it has become a night out destination. 

I will now have to go and look up Cesare Lombroso .


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2016)

Anju said:


> I hadn't considered that, though Brixton is an unusual case, as it has become a night out destination.
> 
> I will now have to go and look up Cesare Lombroso .



It'll give you a good laugh.


----------



## Anju (Aug 10, 2016)

bimble said:


> That makes sense. And makes a whole nother level of wrongness to the fact that the adventure playground near me, in a 'hotspot' of postcode-related stabbings, has been closed for months with a view to being sold off by lambeth council and turned into flats.






Disadvantaged teenagers left isolated as clubs and holiday camps are closed | Lizzie Presser


----------



## sihhi (Aug 10, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sorry, but "It is generally restricted to economically deprived areas" is inaccurate. One of the features of the resurgence of knife crime, and of the carrying of bladed weapons generally, is that it is multi-demographic. There are kids in "good" schools in "good" areas carrying knives and stabbing each other.



All my experience has been of a near total absence of stabbings of u18s in good areas rich areas.


----------



## bimble (Aug 10, 2016)

sihhi said:


> All my experience has been of a near total absence of stabbings of u18s in good areas rich areas.


Yep, I found a list the other day showing teenaged victims of fatal stabbings* in London by borough over the last decade or so . The areas with a score of 0 were Richmond upon Thames and Kensington and Chelsea.

*edit: this was wrong, it wasn't stabbings, it was all deaths ascribed to murder.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 10, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yep, I found a list the other day showing teenaged victims of fatal stabbings in London by borough over the last decade or so . The areas with a score of 0 were Richmond upon Thames and Kensington and Chelsea.



Bimble, do you have a link for that map? I would be very interested in seeing the data.


----------



## bimble (Aug 10, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Bimble, do you have a link for that map? I would be very interested in seeing the data.


I will try to re-find it, it was a good page, had an attempted analysis attached, using that deprivation index, and saying that it wasn't good enough in itself (that as single cause).


----------



## sihhi (Aug 10, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Bimble, do you have a link for that map? I would be very interested in seeing the data.



Citizen's Report has oneLondon Teenage Murder 2005 - 2015


----------



## bimble (Aug 10, 2016)

^ that was it!


The most relevant (maybe) bit being along the lines of
  "So while deprivation does have a part to play other factors must be involved, an example of one of these factors could be demonstrated by Tower Hamlets - one of London's most deprived boroughs - where its deprived Bangladeshi Asian community have consistently been under-represented in the teenage murder trend. _A mixture of deprivation, culture (note: the word culture - not race is being used) and group narrative seems to feature in the expression of very serious and weapon enabled violence; with Black African and African Caribbean individuals frequently represented in the murder victim and offender profile disproportionate to their representation in the overall youth population.."_


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Beginning of industrial revolution's a handy one as Dotty mentioned - I understand there was no mass unemployment before then.


because you were owned. A question of a lords wealth included 'how many peasants do you have'

I don't even think we got tennant farming pre cromwell and putney debates. I might be wrong. I often am. But the point of fuedalism was the ownership of our class and the putney debates gave flesh to th idea of a 'free born englishman'


thats what I understand from my readings anyway. They could not get the vote, the Leveller generals from the New Model Army. But instead secured a sort of patronage of freedoms if you understand me? and if I understand what I have read. And yes it is taking me a very long time to work through EP Thompsons 'Making of the English working class'

But by god is it worth the time. Not enjoyed a social history book this much since Zinn's 'Peoples history of the United States'

thats a smacker and its free to read online.


----------



## bimble (Aug 10, 2016)

This might be deemed totally irrelevant here but for a couple of years recently, the unbelievably corrupt police in Jamaica murdered, on average, one person every single day. Here's the good news:
Police killings drop to 16-year low - News


----------



## krink (Aug 11, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Early modern


hipster capitalism


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 11, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yep, I found a list the other day showing teenaged victims of fatal stabbings* in London by borough over the last decade or so . The areas with a score of 0 were Richmond upon Thames and Kensington and Chelsea.
> 
> *edit: this was wrong, it wasn't stabbings, it was all deaths ascribed to murder.



Other areas who scored 0 in the 2005 -2015 period were Sutton, Kingston upon Thames, and Havering.

By contrast Lewisham had 11, Lambeth and Hackney 15, Newham, 17 and Southwark 18.

Of I think the 128 teens killed in total, around a dozen were white. And even here some of the killers were black.

What also needs to be taken into consideration that for every fatality there will many many other attempts (thousands?)that luckily fall short. There is no precedence for this level of maiming and slaughter among London teens in living memory that I'm aware of.

Are any one them mentioned by BLM? Nope.

Instead they have as their poster boy Mark Duggan, who let's not forget, prior to the fatal interception, was on his way to maim or murder yet another black man.

BLM might not like white people much. Let's take that as a given. However they don't appear to show much concern for black people either.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> BLM might not like white people much. Let's take that as a given. However they don't appear to show much concern for black people either.



Just fuck off.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Other areas who scored 0 in the 2005 -2015 period were Sutton, Kingston upon Thames, and Havering.
> 
> By contrast Lewisham had 11, Lambeth and Hackney 15, Newham, 17 and Southwark 18.



Nothing to do with on the whole the outer London boroughs have better policing ratios and smaller concentrations of deprivation, obviously.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 11, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Other areas who scored 0 in the 2005 -2015 period were Sutton, Kingston upon Thames, and Havering.
> 
> By contrast Lewisham had 11, Lambeth and Hackney 15, Newham, 17 and Southwark 18.
> 
> ...


This is some serious bullshit. Nothing new though; it's exactly what the US BLM have on a regular basis.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 11, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nothing to do with on the whole the outer London boroughs have better policing ratios and smaller concentrations of deprivation, obviously.


Isn't that sort the opposite to what you were arguing earlier that it was 'cross class' that the victims were entirely random, wrong place, wrong time. and so on, or did I get that wrong?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 11, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is some serious bullshit. Nothing new though; it's exactly what the US BLM have on a regular basis.



Are you disputing the figures are would you prefer the issue wasn't discussed?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 11, 2016)

not the figures joe, the inherent assumtion that BLM folks are anti-white. This isn't true is it? so why say it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 11, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Are you disputing the figures are would you prefer the issue wasn't discussed?


The combination of whataboutery and flat-out prejudice that you use has been seen a million times before. Go away.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2016)

White people hate White people. #JoeReillylogic


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is some serious bullshit. Nothing new though; it's exactly what the US BLM have on a regular basis.



It is common here in the UK too. We don't need cops shooting Black people daily to understand institutionalised, internalised, racism and privilege. These arseholes think they are speaking in some invisible, White, secret code...like we are too stupid to understand.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 11, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> It's not unusual here in the UK either. We don't need cops shooting Black people daily to understand institutionalised, internalised, racism and privilege. These arseholes think they are speaking in some invisible, White secret code...like we are too stupid to understand.



So any criticism = racism for you?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 11, 2016)

That's another one.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 11, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> There is no precedence for this level of maiming and slaughter among London teens in living memory that I'm aware of.



Glasgow 2003



> For years Glasgow has tried to live down the "No Mean City" reputation of 1930s when gangs armed with razors fought pitched battles in the streets. But authorities now fear that the gangland culture is making a comeback.
> 
> Groups of youngsters, with names such as the Young Southside Cumbie and the Royston Shamrock, wander the city centre at night armed with knives and heavy leather belts, often high on drink or drugs.
> 
> ...


 link

Those figures are for the whole of Scotland I think, but still thats significantly more teen murders than London's worst year in an area with a population two thirds the size.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That's another one.



Yes he is.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 11, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That's another one.



Are you suggesting that I am a racist?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 11, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Are you suggesting that I am a racist?


Do you have any idea how obvious and tedious this shit is?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 11, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Do you have any idea how obvious and tedious this shit is?



Answer the question. I'm not quite clear what it is that you regard as 'obvious and tedious' but I certainly want you to answer my question.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 11, 2016)

I think there is a disdain emenating from some quarters that think by using the BLM name folks are trying to equate the treatment of black and non white folks in the UK whith the treatment of those same people in the US. Fucked up tbf, and to see leftists doing so is pretty disgusting. Just no understanding of how solidarity works


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I think there is a disdain emenating from some quarters that think by using the BLM name folks are trying to equate the treatment of black and non white folks in the UK whith the treatment of those same people in the US. Fucked up tbf, and to see leftists doing so is pretty disgusting. Just no understanding of how solidarity works



I think you should read what I quoted from Joe and was pretty restraint in merely saying fuck off to again. I think you are being generous.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 11, 2016)

Ah, tbf I would not waste my time with these clowns on Twitter, let alone here. Should not have posted really. I'll stop now, sorry.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Ah, tbf I would not waste my time with these clowns on Twitter, let alone here. Should not have posted really. I'll stop now, sorry.



Take a look at the Milo thread when you are bored.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 11, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Take a look at the Milo thread when you are bored.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 11, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Take a look at the Milo thread when you are bored.


Oh... _that_ one. I'd forgotten.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 11, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> I think you should read what I quoted from Joe and was pretty restraint in merely saying fuck off to again. I think you are being generous.


my curse is that I try to keep it comradley. Except when I don't. But portraying BLM UK as anti-white is pretty fucked up, yes. It's veering on 'who is the real nazi?' stuff


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> my curse is that I try to keep it comradley. Except when I don't. But portraying BLM UK as anti-white is pretty fucked up, yes. It's veering on 'who is the real nazi?' stuff



_Anti White people and doesn't care about Black people_... Let's enjoy that bullshit double speak for one moment at least, some cunt took the time to post it afterall.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 11, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Anti White people and doesn't care about Black people... Let's enjoy that bullshit double speak for one moment at least, some cunt took the time to post it afterall.


ahh now I've just clocked how some of the talk has been. Middle class blacks glory hunting and looking for position. Thats a poisonous line and again, shows a basic misunderstanding of solidarity. Theres always going to be egos somewhere in the mix, humans are humans after all. Didn't expect it here. And the idea that BLM people don't give a shit about black people because they are middle class and the BME deaths are w/c is not on either


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 11, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I think there is a disdain emenating from some quarters that think by using the BLM name folks are trying to equate the treatment of black and non white folks in the UK whith the treatment of those same people in the US. Fucked up tbf, and to see leftists doing so is pretty disgusting. Just no understanding of how solidarity works



The problem for some is the attempt to construct an equivalency between two contexts, when the figures available might suggest there is no such thing. The question of solidarity is equally loaded.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 11, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes he is.



No I'm not. In any way whatsoever. I would ask you to provide evidence to support your assertion but that isn't something you appear to excel at.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2016)

Dotty, also more base than that..._Black-on-Black _crime is implied as evidence...Objectifying nonsense given that more White people kill other White people than anyone else but the logical conclusion of that is not that there is a problem with White-on-white crime or that White people don't care about other White people. Whiteness is seemingly invisible yet all powerful, don't forget.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 11, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> The question of solidarity is equally loaded.


an injury to one is an injury to all. Oldest slogan in the book and still true.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 11, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> an injury to one is an injury to all. Oldestst slogan in the book and still true.



An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 11, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> an injury to one is an injury to all. Oldest slogan in the book and still true.



He liked that arsehole's post, without question.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 11, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Dotty, also more base than that..._Black-on-Black _crime is implied as evidence...Objectifying nonsense given that more White people kill other White people than anyone else but the logical conclusion of that is not that there is a problem with White-on-white crime or that White people don't care about other White people. Whiteness is seemingly invisible yet all powerful, don't forget.



No. Individuals tend to kill within their own groupings.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 11, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth?


I don't do pacifism but I respect the bravery of the very dead people who did.


Rutita1 said:


> Dotty, also more base than that..._Black-on-Black _crime is implied as evidence...Objectifying nonsense given that more White people kill other White people than anyone else but the logical conclusion of that is not that there is a problem with White-on-white crime or that White people don't care about other White people. Whiteness is seemingly invisible yet all powerful, don't forget.



thats something I had not considered before, how black on black violence is used to deligitamize crit of the way black people are treated in our polities. Erg. And I've read loads of books about stuff, how did that pass me by? #everydayschoolday


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 11, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't do pacifism but I respect the bravery of the very dead people who did.



I very much respect the fact you make your position clear and plain.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 11, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I very much respect the fact you make your position clear and plain.


its not a pleasant or easily palatable one but its not an uninformed one either.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 11, 2016)

Rutita1 have you read that medium piece thats been going around on polite white supremacy? I reckon you'd find a lot to like about it. I can send it to you if not.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 11, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Of I think the 128 teens killed in total, around a dozen were white. And even here some of the killers were black.



185 teens killed in total, no idea how you came to the conclusion only a dozen were white.  So yeah your figures could do with a bit of tightening up.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 12, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Rutita1 have you read that medium piece thats been going around on *polite white supremacy?* I reckon you'd find a lot to like about it. I can send it to you if not.



/knowing hysterical laugh, simultaneous traumatic flashbacks, sage burning and death stare   AKA Experienced, self preserving, required response 

Yeah please,  send me a link, I don't know if I have seen it.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 12, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> /knowing hysterical laugh, simultaneous traumatic flashbacks, sage burning and death stare   AKA Experienced, self preserving, required response
> 
> Yeah please,  send me a link, I don't know if I have seen it.



For some reason I can't link here using my fone. I'll send it via the other place ☺


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 12, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Oh... _that_ one. I'd forgotten.



I find it interesting that you reply to one poster but fail to answer my direct, and rather more serious question. You obviously lack courage, or recognise the inadequacy of your original position. Coward.


----------



## Anju (Aug 12, 2016)

Did anyone read the most recent UK BLM articles in the independent and guardian?

Reading the articles I just don't see that these particular people are competent enough to be representing black people, or any other minority group at a national level.

I have linked to another article by an author who gives a much more coherent explanation of why there is a need for blm in the UK.



Black Lives Matter is a movement the UK needs – and our work here is just starting | Laura Barker

The Black Lives Matter movement in the UK is about liberation - not imitation

Four reasons why the racist UK needs Black Lives Matter


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> Did anyone read the most recent UK BLM articles in the independent and guardian?
> 
> Reading the articles I just don't see that these particular people are competent enough to be representing black people, or any other minority group at a national level.
> 
> ...


not sure what you've done to the first link but c4u


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> Did anyone read the most recent UK BLM articles in the independent and guardian?
> 
> Reading the articles I just don't see that these particular people are competent enough to be representing black people, or any other minority group at a national level.
> 
> ...


could you outline what - specifically - you believe their shortcomings to be?


----------



## Anju (Aug 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> could you outline what - specifically - you believe their shortcomings to be?



Why not read the articles first.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> could you outline what - specifically - you believe their shortcomings to be?


Just read the Indy one - its basically absolutely fine - a little bit student politics, but its written by a student. Whats your problem wiht it Anju? Wheres the incompetence? Perfectly competent I think.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> Why not read the articles first.


why not answer my question?


----------



## Anju (Aug 12, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Just read the Indy one - its basically absolutely fine - a little bit student politics, but its written by a student. Whats your problem wiht it Anju? Wheres the incompetence? Perfectly competent I think.



The student part is what I have an issue with. Why, when given a chance to use a national newspaper to promote an important cause would someone write an article aimed at students.  It makes no sense to me. 

Also the whole media and public taken by storm beginning is pointless, self congratulatory and just not true.

Pickmans this is also in answer to you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> The student part is what I have an issue with. Why, when given a chance to use a national newspaper to promote an important cause would someone write an article aimed at students.  It makes no sense to me.
> 
> Also the whole media and public taken by storm beginning is pointless, self congratulatory and just not true.
> 
> Pickmans this is also in answer to you.


there are three authors. what - again specifically - do you believe their shortcomings to be? let's start with the first one, laura baker. she doesn't refer to students, you know.

e2a: or perhaps you don't as you haven't read the bloody article.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> The student part is what I have an issue with. Why, when given a chance to use a national newspaper to promote an important cause would someone write an article aimed at students.  It makes no sense to me.




Students are people too Anju! 



> Reading the articles I just don't see that these particular people are competent enough to be representing black people, or any other minority group at a national level.



This is a really dismissive statement.  'Black people' aren't an homogeneous, difference-less entity afterall.


----------



## Anju (Aug 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> there are three authors. what - again specifically - do you believe their shortcomings to be? let's start with the first one, laura baker. she doesn't refer to students, you know.




I have a busy day and didn't come here to argue.  I just wondered if other people had seen the articles and what they thought. I was way more impressed with the third article..

Why not give a nice long informative answer from your perspective.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 12, 2016)

Its not aimed at students - it reads absolutely fine.  Pick a line from the INdy article that you think is somehow incompetent - I really dont know what your problem is?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> I have a busy day and didn't come here to argue.


i'm not arguing, i am saying you haven't read the first article. it is a statement of fact.





> I just wondered if other people had seen the articles and what they thought. I was way more impressed with the third article..


yes, i thought you'd be impressed with the worst of the three.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> I have a busy day and didn't come here to argue.  I just wondered if other people had seen the articles and what they thought. I was way more impressed with the third article..
> 
> Why not give a nice long informative answer from your perspective.



You linked to three articles and made a blanket dismissive statement. Of course people here want you to explain why you think that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> I have a busy day and didn't come here to argue.  I just wondered if other people had seen the articles and what they thought. I was way more impressed with the third article..
> 
> Why not give a nice long informative answer from your perspective.


you describe all three as poor on the basis they are addressed to students. the first one isn't. you haven't read it. i don't believe you've read any of them.


----------



## Anju (Aug 12, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Students are people too Anju!
> 
> 
> 
> This is a really dismissive statement.  'Black people' aren't an homogeneous, difference-less entity afterall.



Students are people but tend to lack the life  experiences that older people have.

My concern is that UKBLM are not taking into consideration the fact that black people are not a homogeneous group. I have discussed this with quite a few people and have had varied responses. My mother in law was the one which made me laugh as she is firmly of the opinion that black people don't lie down in the road.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> Students are people but tend to lack the life  experiences that older people have.
> 
> My concern is that UKBLM are not taking into consideration the fact that black people are not a homogeneous group. I have discussed this with quite a few people and have had varied responses. My mother in law was the one which made me laugh as she is firmly of the opinion that black people don't lie down in the road.


returning unwillingly to the articles which you haven't read and of which you are so superficially critical, laura barker is a writer and organiser with blm. she does not appear to be a student. what is your gripe with her?


----------



## Anju (Aug 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you describe all three as poor on the basis they are addressed to students. the first one isn't. you haven't read it. i don't believe you've read any of them.



I am saying the first two are poor but the third is much more informative.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> Students are people but tend to lack the life  experiences that older people have.


 Many students are mature ones 



> My concern is that UKBLM are not taking into consideration the fact that black people are not a homogeneous group.



If that is true why are you making blanket dismissive statements then? You can't really criticise if you are pretty much doing the same thing.



> I have discussed this with quite a few people and have had varied responses. My mother in law was the one which made me laugh as she is firmly of the opinion that black people don't lie down in the road.



Your MIL has her views and her ways of doing things. As such she gets to choose what she participates in.  Doesn't make BLM tactics wrong because some people wouldn't do it.


----------



## Anju (Aug 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> returning unwillingly to the articles which you haven't read and of which you are so superficially critical, laura barker is a writer and organiser with blm. she does not appear to be a student. what is your gripe with her?



One example, the inclusion of the Syrian boy who drowned and was shown all over the news. 

The whole thing is an incoherent mess. 

And of course I read the articles. That is why I posted them here.


----------



## Anju (Aug 12, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Many students are mature ones
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can make blanket statements because I am not representing an organisation in the national press.  

If you are representing a whole group of people, especially where you have appointed yourself, I think deciding on tactics is something that requires a bit of consultation and discussion.  By changing the focus of UK BLM from a display of solidarity with the US to a UK focused movement so quickly and silently a lot of people, that I know, feel excluded.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> Students are people but tend to lack the life  experiences that older people have.
> 
> My concern is that UKBLM are not taking into consideration the fact that black people are not a homogeneous group. I have discussed this with quite a few people and have had varied responses. My mother in law was the one which made me laugh as she is firmly of the opinion that black people don't lie down in the road.


Youre taking the notion that anyone can represent millions of people too far.
BLM is an anti-racist campaign - youre either on board with it or not. The authors of those articles have not been voted by Every Last UK Black Person as their representative on earth. Theyre campainging as they see fit. I support them. If some white or black or other people dont, then fine. It would be interesting to know why not. We've had Black people dont lie down in the road as one reason. But no one person claims authority to represent a mass of people uncoditionally. Thats true for all politics


----------



## Anju (Aug 12, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Youre taking the notion that anyone can represent millions of people too far.
> BLM is an anti-racist campaign - youre either on board with it or not. The authors of those articles have not been voted by Every Last UK Black Person as their representative on earth. Theyre campainging as they see fit. I support them. If some white or black or other people dont, then fine. It would be interesting to know why not. We've had Black people dont lie down in the road as one reason. But no one person claims authority to represent a mass of people uncoditionally. Thats true for all politics



I want UKBLM to work but I fear they are going to end up fading away. It is too easy to end up in an insular little self congratulatory group where people are happy to rely on feedback from within their social or political circle to gauge the success of what they are doing.

Apologies if I don't answer any posts but I have stuff to don


----------



## ska invita (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> I want UKBLM to work but I fear they are going to end up fading away. It is too easy to end up in an insular little self congratulatory group where people are happy to rely on feedback from within their social or political circle to gauge the success of what they are doing.
> 
> Apologies if I don't answer any posts but I have stuff to don


yes it is easy. However this lot seem to be doing an amazing job of outreaching, getting comments in newspapers, getting out on the streets and generally spreading their message. Sounds like youve got some constructive feedback to make about these last two articles, but also seems you're too busy to express it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> I want UKBLM to work but I fear they are going to end up fading away. It is too easy to end up in an insular little self congratulatory group where people are happy to rely on feedback from within their social or political circle to gauge the success of what they are doing.



So why not offer them feedback in a constructive way? Why not engage with them about how people like yourself feel excluded? Why not get more involved and help shape the movement?

No one person or small group is gonna tick all the boxes/be everything to everyone...


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> Did anyone read the most recent UK BLM articles in the independent and guardian?
> 
> Reading the articles I just don't see that these particular people are competent enough to be representing black people, or any other minority group at a national level.
> 
> ...



 Incoherent lots of points some of them more valid than others., Marching under the names of criminals who got shot for taking part in crimes. It wasn't their colour that got them shot put a white man in the same situation and they would have been shot too. 
	   Still not sure what they want.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> I can make blanket statements because I am not representing an organisation in the national press.
> 
> If you are representing a whole group of people, especially where you have appointed yourself, I think deciding on tactics is something that requires a bit of consultation and discussion.  By changing the focus of UK BLM from a display of solidarity with the US to a UK focused movement so quickly and silently a lot of people, that I know, feel excluded.



This incisive expertise you have in campaigning and social change, where does it comw from?  What have you done, how have you gained these insights, what are you're experiences of activism/campaigning/politics and how do they inform your opinion of BLM?

Or have you just sat on your liberal arse all your life. telling everybody else what they shoud be doing, and assuming that your opinions are superior to the people actually doing shit on the frontline because you're so special and above getting your hands dirty?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> I am saying the first two are poor but the third is much more informative.


yes. but the first one a) isn't by a student, and b) doesn't mention students, so your reasons outlined in post 1066 don't apply.


Anju said:


> The student part is what I have an issue with. Why, when given a chance to use a national newspaper to promote an important cause would someone write an article aimed at students.  It makes no sense to me.
> 
> Also the whole media and public taken by storm beginning is pointless, self congratulatory and just not true.
> 
> Pickmans this is also in answer to you.


the third article may be superficially more informative but ignores the way in which north america was colonised, not just by britain but also by the french, and of course the way racism very much imported into the americas by the spanish in the 1500s (to take but one point), whereas it would have britain the sole villain of the piece. in addition, british entry into north america not a concerted invasion, as various people went there for a range of reasons, from the quakers to people more associated with the crown. there wasn't the homogeneity assumed by the article. the united states, which descends in part from british colonists also descends from the french, the dutch, the spanish and of course from russian attempts to colonise north america. it is not a simple 'britain bad' thing! in addition the article is cavalier with the issue of deaths in custody saying that "since the 1990s"  1563 deaths have occurred in police custody or following contact with the police. that essentially says that since 2000 (since the 1990s) these deaths have occurred, whereas it is since 1990 - 26 years, not 16.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> Apologies if I don't answer any posts but I have stuff to don



Spandex pants and a cape?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> And of course I read the articles. That is why I posted them here.


i don't believe you otherwise you'd have noticed (as i have said about five times now) that the first one, despite your avowal to the contrary, isn't by a fucking student and says nothing about students.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 12, 2016)

see the hostility, or natural assumption even, that 'student' has nothing to offer and no life experience comes with its own baggage. Now they have to take on up to 40k debt to do it in order to enter a job market that values degrees not at all but sees the lack of one as an excuse to min wage the young or adult you might think they'd catch some sympathy. But no. Some poisonous shit sunk in from back in the days of grants when tory press and r/w comics would do their best to make out what cunts all these kids are, on our money. Some students are undoubtaby twats mind, but then thats true of the poulation at large


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> see the hostility, or natural assumption even, that 'student' has nothing to offer and no life experience comes with its own baggage. Now they have to take on up to 40k debt to do it in order to enter a job market that values degrees not at all but sees the lack of one as an excuse to min wage the young or adult you might think they'd catch some sympathy. But no. Some poisonous shit sunk in from back in the days of grants when tory press and r/w comics would do their best to make out what cunts all these kids are, on our money. Some students are undoubtaby twats mind, but then thats true of the poulation at large


david cameron has much more life experience than your average student being as he's aulder and has been prime minister. but like jon snow he knows nothing.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 12, 2016)

Anju said:


> . My mother in law was the one which made me laugh as she is firmly of the opinion that black people don't lie down in the road.


I just want to say something about this comment by your MiL. Your MiL is a Woman of Colour, is that right? From your posts in the past Ive understood that to be the case...Theres a conservatism in her comment which is exactly part of what is being challenged by UKBLM.

First of all its obviously not true: there have been black 'activists' in endless struggles around the world over decades, centuries, and taking arrestable direct action has always been a part of that. At times it has included, shock horror, lying in a street. To deny that is to deny that history.

Secondly theres a common trait amongst people oppressed or disempowered in society where a more conservative attitude kicks in - stay out of trouble, get your head down, build your own for your own. I know it well from many migrant families, including my own. Facing off to police, challenging authority, is often seen as a privilege for those that can afford the outcomes, or feel they have the right to speak out.

UKBLM is directly challenging that powerlessness head on - if it makes some people uncomfortable then it shows the tabboo/stigma/attitude up clearly. Just more signs that its doing good as far as I'm concerned.

All campaigns can fuck up in myriad ways - such is life. So far its all good though, and I'm still nonethewiser why you think otherwise.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 12, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The combination of whataboutery and flat-out prejudice that you use has been seen a million times before. Go away.



When the day in day out slaughter of black teenagers can be dismissed as "whataboutery" in the name of anti-racism it showcases just how twisted out of shape the priorities of liberal anti-racism have become.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Isn't that sort the opposite to what you were arguing earlier that it was 'cross class' that the victims were entirely random, wrong place, wrong time. and so on, or did I get that wrong?



Don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything about "entirely random", you fantasist.

And no, it's not "sort of the opposite" of what I was arguing. It's an elucidation of why you should always look a bit deeper for data, than the implications of "it's a black thing" that you're chucking around.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2016)

Liddle Towers


----------



## ska invita (Aug 12, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> Incoherent lots of points some of them more valid than others., Marching under the names of criminals who got shot for taking part in crimes. It wasn't their colour that got them shot put a white man in the same situation and they would have been shot too.
> Still not sure what they want.


....cant really be arsed but since your post went unanswered, short answer, relationship between crime and black communities are part of the structural problem, and police response to those crimes is another part of the problem. What we want is unviersal equality with age old racial discrimination eradicated. Dont you want that too? Dont you think it exists?


----------



## Mation (Aug 12, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> When the day in day out slaughter of black teenagers can be dismissed as "whataboutery" in the name of anti-racism it showcases just how twisted out of shape the priorities of liberal anti-racism have become.


You're not going to get much traction with that sort of nonsense. Better off going over to an RNLI board and berating them for not caring if people burn to death in their homes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> Incoherent lots of points some of them more valid than others., Marching under the names of criminals who got shot for taking part in crimes. It wasn't their colour that got them shot put a white man in the same situation and they would have been shot too.
> Still not sure what they want.


if that's the case then perhaps you can name a few of these white men in the same situation who have been shot. or is it auld whitey too clever to get caught out like that?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> if that's the case then perhaps you can name a few of these white men in the same situation who have been shot. or is it auld whitey too clever to get caught out like that?


Anthony Grainger springs to mind tbh


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> White people hate White people. #JoeReillylogic



I'm an equal opportunities misanthrope - I hate ALL people.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 12, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Anthony Grainger springs to mind tbh


well thats a blatant hit job. To the north, where we do what we like (london met also going 'thats nothing unique to the north mate')


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 12, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Anthony Grainger springs to mind tbh



About the only one rest appeared to have at least brandished some form of weapon


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth?



The political book, not the "good" book.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The political book, not the "good" book.



The 'good book' _is_ political.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> No. Individuals tend to kill within their own groupings.



A poor claim. Many individuals who kill, do so outside their own groupings, unless you're using the term "groupings" so broadly that you make a nonsense of it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> The 'good book' _is_ political.



_Everything_ is political, if you broaden the context enough, including Cain killing Abel.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 12, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> About the only one rest appeared to have at least brandished some form of weapon



I'm not really sure what point you are making, but what about Harry Stanley (who was holding a table leg) and James Brady (who was holding a torch) and Diarmud O'Neill (unarmed), James Ashley (unarmed)? All fatally shot by the police since 1995 and all white afaik?

Prior to 1995 you'd also have Stephen Waldorf and I'm sure there are others.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 12, 2016)

ska invita said:


> ....cant really be arsed but since your post went unanswered, short answer, relationship between crime and black communities are part of the structural problem, and police response to those crimes is another part of the problem. What we want is unviersal equality with age old racial discrimination eradicated. Dont you want that too? Dont you think it exists?


 
 Not sure how to achieve universal equality given people's tendency to be bastards to one another at any opportunity.
 As a straight white male not really that interested in it tbh probably as it doesn't effect me . I know it exists it has got a lot better since the 80s behaviour that was tolerated then is not tolerated now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2016)

8ball said:


> Spandex pants and a cape?



A pair of MASSIVE Lionels.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> _Everything_ is political, if you broaden the context enough, including Cain killing Abel.



Quite.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> _Everything_ is political, if you broaden the context enough, including Cain killing Abel.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> A poor claim. Many individuals who kill, do so outside their own groupings, unless you're using the term "groupings" so broadly that you make a nonsense of it.



He is using it loosely and in a disingenuous way to ignore my point and cover up the fact he doesn't actually care how many White people kill other White people, yet thinks 'Black on Black' crime is a slam dunk criticism of Black people/BLM. 


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480250/bulletin.pdf


----------



## ska invita (Aug 12, 2016)

> As a straight white male not really that interested in it tbh probably as it doesn't effect me . I know it exists it has got a lot better since the 80s behaviour that was tolerated then is not tolerated now.


Better but far from solved - support those who are doing nothing more than keeping on pushing on that front - however futile you may think their attempts are to do so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> Not sure how to achieve universal equality given people's tendency to be bastards to one another at any opportunity.
> As a straight white male not really that interested in it tbh probably as it doesn't effect me . I know it exists it has got a lot better since the 80s behaviour that was tolerated then is not tolerated now.


"as a straight white male" your inaction affects other people.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 12, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I'm not really sure what point you are making, but what about Harry Stanley (who was holding a table leg) and James Brady (who was holding a torch) and Diarmud O'Neill (unarmed), James Ashley (unarmed)? All fatally shot by the police since 1995 and all white afaik?
> 
> Prior to 1995 you'd also have Stephen Waldorf and I'm sure there are others.



Mr Stanley and Mr Brady both appeared to be brandishing a weapon. Mr O'Neil was a terrorist not sure if that is seen as the equivalent or worse than a known criminal. I guess Mr Ashley counts I'd forgotten the idiocy that led to his killing.
  So the police will kill you whatever your colour if you give them an excuse or put them in a position where they have to make a choice.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 12, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> He is using it loosely to cover up the fact he doesn't actually care how many White people kill other White people, yet thinks 'Black on Black' crime is a slam dunk criticism of Black people/BLM.
> 
> View attachment 90742
> https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480250/bulletin.pdf



So I was right regarding the fact of individuals killing within their own grouping.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> "as a straight white male" your inaction affects other people.


 How exactly?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> How exactly?


on the basis that by not doing anything you are in fact supporting the status quo. and the general consensus is that the status quo isn't good enough.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 12, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> He is using it loosely to cover up the fact he doesn't actually care how many White people kill other White people, yet thinks 'Black on Black' crime is a slam dunk criticism of Black people/BLM.


Of course when you and your fellow hand wringers step over the dead bodies of black teenagers and even children in a rush to defend an ersatz initiative led by a bunch of middle class phonies who concocted a crisis out of narrow self interest that's regarded as a perfectly principled liberal response. Were the black working class communities who bear the brunt consulted? Of course not. Phonies of the world unite.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

oh this is going _swimmingly_


----------



## Mation (Aug 12, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Of course when you and your fellow hand wringers step over the dead bodies of black teenagers and even children in a rush to defend an ersatz initiative led by a bunch of middle class phonies who concocted a crisis out of narrow self interest that's regarded as a perfectly principled liberal response. Were the black working class communities who bear the brunt consulted? Of course not. Phonies of the world unite.


Please do go on. I, for one, am _very _interested to hear more of your thoughts on this point


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 12, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> So I was right regarding the fact of individuals killing within their own grouping.


"their own grouping"


----------



## Ole (Aug 12, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Just read the Indy one - its basically absolutely fine - a little bit student politics, but its written by a student. Whats your problem wiht it Anju? Wheres the incompetence? Perfectly competent I think.


 


ska invita said:


> Its not aimed at students - it reads absolutely fine.  Pick a line from the INdy article that you think is somehow incompetent - I really dont know what your problem is?


 
It's shit.

Black people in the UK are ... 44 times more likely to be detained under the Mental Health Act.​BLM material cites mentalhealth.org as their source. It actually shows that black people are 44% more likely to be detained under the Mental Health Act. So 1.44 times rather than 44 times.  

I notice they continue to refer to a figure that includes the deaths of whites - 1563. Why? There is no reason or justification for this, unless they are trying to deceive people. Which they are doing, whether they are intending so or not.

Even as the number of deaths following contact with police in England and Wales climbs to 1,563 since 1990, the number of police convicted for these killings remains at zero - and yet our very right to grieve is still denied as we are pitted against the oppression of our black siblings across the Atlantic.​


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> "their own grouping"



You have an objection? It is a neutral term, no?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 12, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> You have an objection? It is a neutral term, no?


Of course it isn't. 

Their
Own
Grouping


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> You have an objection? It is a neutral term, no?


it's a crap term.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 12, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Of course when you and your fellow hand wringers step over the dead bodies of black teenagers and even children in a rush to defend an ersatz initiative led by a bunch of middle class phonies who concocted a crisis out of narrow self interest that's regarded as a perfectly principled liberal response. Were the black working class communities who bear the brunt consulted? Of course not. Phonies of the world unite.



Why don't you care about White people? Why is it okay for some White people to focus their attentions on one particular issue or cause at a time without being criticised because they aren't speaking out for all issues at a time? Why do you expect Black people to be more caring and capable than White people? Why do Black people need to be super-human?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 12, 2016)

What terminology would you prefer or use?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything about "entirely random", you fantasist.
> 
> And no, it's not "sort of the opposite" of what I was arguing. It's an elucidation of why you should always look a bit deeper for data, than the implications of "it's a black thing" that you're chucking around.



You were called out on your original assertion by others. Defend it. Don't weasel out. Be a man.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> You were called out on your original assertion by others. Defend it. Don't weasel out. Be a man.



There's no weaselling to calling you a fantasist, mush.

And given you're pretending to be hard-of-thinking, lets play your game:

I said "Sorry, but "It is generally restricted to economically deprived areas" is inaccurate. One of the features of the resurgence of knife crime, and of the carrying of bladed weapons generally, is that it is multi-demographic. There are kids in "good" schools in "good" areas carrying knives and stabbing each other."

You appear to believe that my response to your statement that
 "Other areas who scored 0 in the 2005 -2015 period were Sutton, Kingston upon Thames, and Havering

By contrast Lewisham had 11, Lambeth and Hackney 15, Newham, 17 and Southwark 18.[/quote]

To whit:
"Nothing to do with on the whole the outer London boroughs have better policing ratios and smaller concentrations of deprivation, obviously"
is "sort of the opposite" to what I'd said. It isn't. The fact that better resources mean *fewer* issues in some areas isn't the opposite of saying that the issues are multi-demographic, it's merely stating that - as ever - in some places, some slight amelioration takes place.

 Now, print this post out, fold it three times, and stick it up your arse.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> "their own grouping"



It's as if they are talking about animals not human beings


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> *Not sure how to achieve universal equality* given people's tendency to be bastards to one another at any opportunity.
> *As a straight white male not really that interested in it *tbh probably as it doesn't effect me . I know it exists it has got a lot better since the 80s behaviour that was tolerated then is not tolerated now.


 well that's a start isn't it, long as the people with the privilege carry on blithely not giving much of a fuck either way.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> I notice they continue to refer to a figure that includes the deaths of whites - 1563. Why? There is no reason or justification for this, unless they are trying to deceive people. Which they are doing, whether they are intending so or not.
> ​



Because it's black lives matter too. Not only. 

And because we don't want anyone to die at the hands if the cops.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

bimble said:


> well that's a start isn't it, long as the people with the privilege carry on blithely not giving much of a fuck either way.


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2016)

^ yes, apologies, I somehow missed the most recent posts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Because it's black lives matter too. Not only.
> 
> And because we don't want anyone to die at the hands if the cops.


except maybe other cops


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> It's shit.
> 
> Black people in the UK are ... 44 times more likely to be detained under the Mental Health Act.​BLM material cites mentalhealth.org as their source. It actually shows that black people are 44% more likely to be detained under the Mental Health Act. So 1.44 times rather than 44 times.
> ​


ok, that is a pretty shit mistake.
I saw that 44 times more likely to be sectioned figure on the UKBLM twitter, and though fucking hell that is.. insane.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> except maybe other cops



That's a given. Who care about dead cops


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 12, 2016)

bimble said:


> well that's a start isn't it, long as the people with the privilege carry on blithely not giving much of a fuck either way.



 Privilege  an advantage that only one person or group of people has, usually because of their position or because they are rich:

		IMHO that is a stupid word implying I'm doing a lot better than I really am.


----------



## Ole (Aug 12, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Because it's black lives matter too. Not only.
> 
> And because we don't want anyone to die at the hands if the cops.


 
So BLMUK are using a figure that includes ~ 86% white deaths to argue the case that 'black lives matter too'? What sense is there in that?

They're constantly using the figure without ever acknowledging that 86% of the deaths in it are white, and usually alongside a series of claimed figures that relate to black people alone. We have yet to see if this is a movement that is against police violence per se. Little to nothing so far suggests that it is.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> So BLMUK are using a figure that includes 86% white deaths to argue the case that 'black lives matter too'? What sense is there in that?
> 
> They're constantly using the figure without ever acknowledging that 86% of the deaths in it are white, and usually alongside a series of claimed figures that relate to black people alone. We have yet to see if this is a movement that is against police violence per se. Little to nothing so far suggests that it is.


They're not arguing that white deaths do not matter but that black deaths count less. Count less in a whole series of ways. You, you should correct the figures and move on to  critical support, nothing else.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> So BLMUK are using a figure that includes ~ 86% white deaths to argue the case that 'black lives matter too'? What sense is there in that?
> 
> They're constantly using the figure without ever acknowledging that 86% of the deaths in it are white, and usually alongside a series of claimed figures that relate to black people alone. We have yet to see if this is a movement that is against police violence per se. Little to nothing so far suggests that it is.


Playing fast and loose with stats is as far as i can tell standard practice with any sort of social justice movement. There as as many ill-informed memes as there causes flying around. Don't know why you would get all het up about the this one specifically.


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> Privilege  an advantage that only one person or group of people has, usually because of their position or because they are rich:
> 
> IMHO that is a stupid word implying I'm doing a lot better than I really am.



May I recommend joining an MRA chatroom on reddit ?

I don't like using the p word either, for a start I have to check the spelling every single time. but don't know a better one to describe what it attempts to condense.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 12, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> Privilege  an advantage that only one person or group of people has, usually because of their position or because they are rich:
> 
> IMHO that is a stupid word implying I'm doing a lot better than I really am.


position is the key one there. I'm no big fan of the word in context, it can be divisive as hell but if you recognize that society is prefferentially orientated towards white males then you can see where it comes from. Google 'cock privilege' for a laugh and read Robin Morgans diatribe in The Rat. I'm no intersectional theorist but things like how it doesn't matter how rich you are, how well connected and educated-in-private-school. Get a tug from the wrong police in the wrong area and you are just another darkie to them and will be treated accordingly. So we can see that sometimes race cuts across class lines


----------



## Ole (Aug 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> They're not arguing that white deaths do not matter but that black deaths count less. Count less in a whole series of ways. You, you should correct the figures and move on to  critical support, nothing else.


In that case they should use figures that make their point. The way they have been going about it so far is underhanded in some cases and downright incompetent in others.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> In that case they should use figures that make their point. The way they have been going about it so far is underhanded in some cases and downright incompetent in others.


Help - them to do that. If you think the use is malevolent then challenge that directly. Help them.


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> In that case they should use figures that make their point. The way they have been going about it so far is underhanded in some cases and downright incompetent in others.


That one about 44 times more likely to be sectioned, when the truth is 44% more likely, that's kind of obviously a mistake. A really bad one, and they definitely shouldn't have let it happen, to be published on their official twitter and all, but it does show that not on purpose.


----------



## Ole (Aug 12, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> Playing fast and loose with stats is as far as i can tell standard practice with any sort of social justice movement. There as as many ill-informed memes as there causes flying around. Don't know why you would get all het up about the this one specifically.


You're wrong on all counts. 



bimble said:


> That one about 44 times more likely to be sectioned, when the truth is 44% more likely, that's kind of obviously a mistake. A really bad one, and they definitely shouldn't have let it happen, but kind of shows that not on purpose.


Yes I agree, I file that one under downright incompetent.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 12, 2016)

bimble said:


> May I recommend joining an MRA chatroom on reddit ?
> 
> I don't like using the p word either, for a start I have to check the spelling every single time. but don't know a better one to describe what it attempts to condense.


 I'd rather not I need all the brain cells I have.
 I think of privilege as first class seats etc . Not, not getting stopped by the cops regularly. It is a word that isn't good at putting the concept across.


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> I'd rather not I need all the brain cells I have.
> I think of privilege as first class seats etc . Not, not getting stopped by the cops regularly. It is a word that isn't good at putting the concept across.


Why not try thinking about it as not getting stopped by the cops regularly, or at airport security, etc.
For example me, I carried illegal substances in my pockets / in my bag for about a decade, everywhere, and have never once in my life been searched, I do not put that down to luck.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 12, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> I'd rather not I need all the brain cells I have.
> I think of privilege as first class seats etc . Not, not getting stopped by the cops regularly. It is a word that isn't good at putting the concept across.


That's surely because you don't walk around getting hassled by the cops. If you were, you'd soon be thinking it must be a fucking privilege to not be getting hassled by the cops.


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> Google 'cock privilege' for a laugh and read Robin Morgans diatribe in The Rat



link please?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> You're wrong on all counts.


Not really, not with such large movements. Some individuals are sticklers for facts but many are quite happy to share the first bit of info they see as putting their point across even if they are big names on the scene, i see this with people's social media profiles often- i probably haven't worded that well because maybe the offical face of such groups would inevitably have to get their facts straight, but it's very common within movements and it's a bit shit to come down on BLM like a ton of bricks given how important their cause actually is and how difficult it must be for them just to have their voice heard- i'm sure any incompetencies can be ironed out over time.  ARE ALL OF THOSE SENTENCES FUCKING SHIT TOO EH?


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 12, 2016)

bimble said:


> link possible?


I shall try to dig it out. I think you'll enjoy it. Its breathtaking in its anger.

Fair Use Blog  » Blog Archive   » “Goodbye to All That,” by Robin Morgan (1970)


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2016)

^ triple like.

Just a little extract for those with weak stomachs:

"Oppression is something that one group of people commits against another group specifically because of a threatening characteristic shared by the latter group—skin color or sex or age, etc. The oppressors are indeed _fucked up_ by being masters (racism hurts whites, sexual stereotypes are harmful to men) but those masters are not _oppressed_. *Any master has the alternative of divesting himself of sexism or racism;* the oppressed have no alternative—for they have no power—but to fight. In the long run, Women’s Liberation will of course free men—but in the short term it’s going to _cost _men a lot of privilege, which no one gives up willingly or easily.'


----------



## Ole (Aug 12, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> I'd rather not I need all the brain cells I have.
> I think of privilege as first class seats etc . Not, not getting stopped by the cops regularly. It is a word that isn't good at putting the concept across.



Neoliberal snakes love framing human rights as 'privileges' - usually 'white privilege'. Walking down your own street unmolested isn't the rightful entitlement of all citizens, it's 'white privilege'. Kids getting a decent education is also 'white privilege'. The connotations are clear. If the white working-class are so emboldened as to demand these they are actually just racists (e.g. Bernie Sanders voters - literally). Classic ruling-class divide and conquer.


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> Neoliberal snakes love framing human rights as 'privileges' - usually 'white privilege'. Walking down your own street unmolested isn't the rightful entitlement of all citizens, it's 'white privilege'. Kids getting a decent education is also 'white privilege'. The connotations are clear. If the white working-class are so emboldened as to demand these they are actually just racists (e.g. Bernie Sanders voters - literally). Classic ruling-class divide and conquer.


"human rights" are enjoyed equally by all humans then, is that right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2016)

bimble said:


> "human rights" are enjoyed equally by all humans then, is that right?


if only they were


----------



## Ole (Aug 12, 2016)

bimble said:


> "human rights" are enjoyed equally by all humans then, is that right?


Yeah - that's exactly what I said.


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> Yeah - that's exactly what I said.




edit: I see you've added that shifty eyes smiley but could you maybe expand? Are you saying class is everything race is nothing?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> Neoliberal snakes love framing human rights as 'privileges' - usually 'white privilege'. Walking down your own street unmolested isn't the rightful entitlement of all citizens, it's 'white privilege'. Kids getting a decent education is also 'white privilege'. The connotations are clear. If the white working-class are so emboldened as to demand these they are actually just racists (e.g. Bernie Sanders voters - literally). Classic ruling-class divide and conquer.


You are speaking as if no white working class people recognise the privileges that they have as opposed to the experiences of black people or those that are perceived not to be white/white enough.

I don't think anyone here has said all white people have it easy, no one here is saying that that white working class people do not face particular discrimination either.... You seem to be arguing that because black people are not the only people who suffer the effects of prejudice of some kind they have no right/reason to organise, protest and speak out.


----------



## Ole (Aug 12, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You are speaking as if no white working class people recognise the privileges that they have as opposed to the experiences of black people or those that are perceived not to be white/white enough.
> 
> I don't think anyone here has said all white people have it easy, no one here is saying that that white working class people do not face particular discrimination either.... You seem to be arguing that because black people are not the only people who suffer the effects of prejudice of some kind they have no right/reason to organise, protest and speak out.



I'm arguing against the framing of human rights as 'privileges' enjoyed by some rather than as oppression upon those denied them.

Just to be clear - I wasn't referring to anyone on here. I'm talking about the actual ruling-class who use this language as a weapon.


----------



## bimble (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> I'm arguing against the framing of human rights as 'privileges' enjoyed by some rather than as oppression upon those denied them.


But that is quite plainly bollocks, isn't it. Unless you think that the written law is the same thing as what life is actually like . 
But you're a waste of time & i have a pub to go to .


----------



## Ole (Aug 12, 2016)

bimble said:


> But that is quite plainly bollocks, isn't it. Unless you think that the written law is the same thing as what life is actually like .
> But you're a waste of time & i have a pub to go to .


I don't know what you're on about and so do I.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> I'm arguing against the framing of human rights as 'privileges' enjoyed by some rather than as oppression upon those denied them.
> 
> Just to be clear - I wasn't referring to anyone on here. I'm talking about the actual ruling-class who use this language as a weapon.


I am completely happy to talk about oppression, different kinds, shared or particular. For me, 'privilege' is  useful terminology to describe the 'concessions' that some of us experience/enjoy.

I can see the issues you have with the idea that 'rights' are privileges yet you seem to be using that annoyance as basis to dismiss the legitimate concerns of others.. In short 'put up and shut up'. Which feels ironic given your arguments about the ruling classes and their attitudes to everyone not them.


----------



## Buckaroo (Aug 12, 2016)

Ole said:


> I'm arguing against the framing of human rights as 'privileges' enjoyed by some rather than as oppression upon those denied them.


So just to be clear, class privilege enjoyed by some is not oppression on others because human rights are not a thing denied them.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 13, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> They're not arguing that white deaths do not matter but that black deaths count less. Count less in a whole series of ways. You, you should correct the figures and move on to  critical support, nothing else.



This basically.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

Anju said:


> I want UKBLM to work but I fear they are going to end up fading away. It is too easy to end up in an insular little self congratulatory group where people are happy to rely on feedback from within their social or political circle to gauge the success of what they are doing.
> 
> Apologies if I don't answer any posts but I have stuff to don


Have you donned it yet or was this supposed to be a polite way of saying you're going all brave sir robin on us?


----------



## Mation (Aug 13, 2016)

Ole said:


> I'm arguing against the framing of human rights as 'privileges' enjoyed by some rather than as oppression upon those denied them.
> 
> Just to be clear - I wasn't referring to anyone on here. I'm talking about the actual ruling-class who use this language as a weapon.


You have a point. I'm not sure I trust the reason you're making it, but you do have one.

This is the way in which the term 'white privilege' is useful:



Using the term is a way of getting people to recognise what they have in order that they can use it to help. It's not meant as a stick to beat people with. If it feels like a stick or seems like one, then that's usually because the response is "no! I am not privileged!" in a way that denies the benefits afforded to some people because of who/what they are (on a particular scale), systematically, that are at the same time denied to others because of who/what they aren't (on the same scale). 

So yes, you can change the language. We all should be allowed the same human rights. We can see that you (other person) are oppressed. But that doesn't really do the job of getting people to see how they can use the things they blithely walk around benefiting from to help people who can't. 

Provide a term that does that job, one that doesn't make you prickle, and I'll happily use it.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 13, 2016)

Mation said:


> You have a point. I'm not sure I trust the reason you're making it, but you do have one.
> 
> This is the way in which the term 'white privilege' is useful:
> 
> ...



 AMERICA IS NOT THE UK try harder.


----------



## Mation (Aug 13, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> AMERICA IS NOT THE UK try harder.


Oh! Ok then. I didn't realise. I thought here and there were identical. But, come to think of it, given that they are different places, it follows logically that you can't apply anything poc experience there to here.

So I bow to your superior knowledge of my existence and experience in the UK and I'm sorry to have exasperated you so.


----------



## RedSkin (Aug 13, 2016)

Have not posted on here for about 10 yrs. Hello to anyone that may remember me. Sort of skim read this thread so apols if any of these points have already been covered.

What exactly is BLM's aim? is it the disproportionate skin colour of people dying in police custody & being stopped & searched. Once it has it has fallen to level to relative to the population as a whole, is that it? Job done, pack up & go home.
I find it hard to work out if it's police oppression per se they object or just the fact some of the victims happen to be black & this is the key element? (and I would despute statistics about deaths in police custody, I remember reading somewhere that more white people die in police custody even relative to the 10-15% non white population)

My gut reaction to such a group was 'oh so white lives don't matter then' it would be interesting to hear the response from disenfranchised white communities in the north from places like Oldham & the Essex/London borders. The best way to defeat any serious opposition to the state is to divide it which by calling themselves BLACK lives matter they have done from the get go, alienating the majority of this country who may well think 'this has nothing to do with me' racialising any opposition to the state is totally self-defeating. They have shot themselves in the foot before they have even started.

Seeing as they have some support on these boards, I presume they are a grassroots organisation, democratically controlled by the membership with all official posts being instantly recallable? Dont think so somehow. 

Not even going to go into the defenition of the term 'black' and whether it covers recent Syrian imigrants, Poles, Romanians, Hungarians etc. Do the hundreds of Irish people historically targetted by the PTA lives not matter.

In a bit of personal invective this really does strike me as a bunch of black students who have realised there may be no jobs for them at the end of their courses and are attemting to create a media based industry, perhaps a better name for them would be: BLACK STUDENTS FUTURE CAREERS MATTER!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 13, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> AMERICA IS NOT THE UK try harder.



One minute raging about class oppression being ignored and then thinking it's ok to do the same with race. Don't get me wrong, I have a very confused relationship with feminism for many of the reasons put forward, as a working class woman there's a very distinct stench of please don't bring up class if it's me speaking for myself and not more privleged women talking about it in the abstract, so i know why the knee jerks. But the posters on here still gave you some leeway and you are still being a doofus. You need to have a look at that i think.


----------



## RedSkin (Aug 13, 2016)

Also briefly glimpsed on C4 news coverage slightly built African American woman apparently directing blockade outside Heathrow, seen many a time on you tube leading BLACK ONLY demonstrations against the KKK. Why did she turn up at this point in time? Might be worth investigating for those of you who are into that kind of thing


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 13, 2016)

obviously ,this
 is the only acceptable attitude. bye.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 13, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> obviously ,this
> is the only acceptable attitude. bye.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 13, 2016)

(i'm sorry if all they gifs broke anyones internet they were all necessary)


----------



## Mation (Aug 13, 2016)

Wow  That was quite something, wasn't it 

Oh - and welcome back, RedSkin


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 13, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> AMERICA IS NOT THE UK try harder.



Are you really telling a Black woman that the experiences talked about in that video are nothing like the experiences of Black people in the UK?

Do you seriously think that Black people through out the diaspora have no shared experiences at all?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 13, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> obviously ,this
> is the only acceptable attitude. bye.



So to top your absolute arrogance, you prove that you are not interested in any kind of discussion, nor are you willing to learn anything.

For posting this particular pic I have decided you are a full blown, utter, baiting cunt that knows exactly what he is doing.


----------



## Anju (Aug 13, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> So why not offer them feedback in a constructive way? Why not engage with them about how people like yourself feel excluded? Why not get more involved and help shape the movement?
> 
> No one person or small group is gonna tick all the boxes/be everything to everyone...



One of the problems is  that they do not seem to be seeking contact or input from people outside their group.

Their Facebook group has 80 or so members and their website is just one terribly designed page. Type in www.blacklivesmatter.org.uk and you get this.


 

The Facebook group page is not exactly an informative read either. 

I think it is disgraceful for people to put themselves forward as leaders of a movement, that came to them with a powerful message and a bit of political clout, and then show this level of commitment and effort to making it a success. To me it really does look like they are content with a bit of media spotlight but can't be bothered with doing the massive amount of work required to make them more than the political equivalent of a one hit wonder.  The other possibility is that it is the peter principal in action, but either way I don't hold out much hope for the future of blm uk.

Apologies for not replying to everyone but my dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's on Thursday so I have been struggling to focus. No sympathy required, just don't want to be rude by not responding to anyone making an effort to reply. This seemed the most appropriate post as I could answer and include what I wanted to say.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 13, 2016)

Anju said:


> One of the problems is  that they do not seem to be seeking contact or input from people outside their group.
> 
> Their Facebook group has 80 or so members and their website is just one terribly designed page. Type in www.blacklivesmatter.org.uk and you get this.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about your dad.


Have you seen this? Black Lives Matter  Freedom & Justice for all Black Lives


----------



## smokedout (Aug 13, 2016)

or this: Security Check Required


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 13, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Are you really telling a Black woman that the experiences talked about in that video are nothing like the experiences of Black people in the UK?
> 
> Do you seriously think that Black people through out the diaspora have no shared experiences at all?



So here we have the 'authenticity' position stated clearly, with reference to gender and (presumably) colour/race/ethnicity/phenotype (delete and use as appropriate according to the positional and situational axis).


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> So here we have the 'authenticity' position stated clearly, with reference to gender and (presumably) colour/race/ethnicity/phenotype (delete and use as appropriate according to the positional and situational axis).


When's your great reveal going to happen?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 13, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> When's your great reveal going to happen?



I'm not sure what you mean, you appear to have an agenda yet to achieve resolution, with an already suggested strategy of attack.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I'm not sure what you mean, you appear to have an agenda yet to achieve resolution, with an already suggested strategy of attack.


you don't seem to understand what strategy is.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't seem to understand what strategy is.



And you do?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> When's your great reveal going to happen?


oh, his great reveal has been going on for some time: although it's exposing him rather than him exposing something else.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> And you do?


fucking more than you do, sonny.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> fucking more than you do, sonny.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


>


perhaps now you could post up or link to butchersapron's 'already suggested strategy of attack'. then we can go through it and see the extent to which it is in fact a strategy.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 13, 2016)

But the poc experience is very different
Wikipedia In 1950 there were probably fewer than 20,000 non-white residents in Britain, almost all born oversea they now make up 3% of the population

slavery and organised discrimination like the Jim crow laws and segregation didn't happen here they also make up 14% of the US history and have been there from the start.

Before ww2 anybody who wasn't white was very unusual


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps now you could post up or link to butchersapron's 'already suggested strategy of attack'. then we can go through it and see the extent to which it is in fact a strategy.



I get the impression that he/she appears able to post on his /her own behalf without need of you pulling his /her chain.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

likesfish said:


> But the poc experience is very different
> Wikipedia In 1950 there were probably fewer than 20,000 non-white residents in Britain, almost all born oversea they now make up 3% of the population
> 
> slavery and organised discrimination like the Jim crow laws and segregation didn't happen here they also make up 14% of the US history and have been there from the start.
> ...


a moment's research shows that in 1951 there were 111,000 indians - just looking at those born outside the uk - in the country. so before we look at e.g. africans or people from the west indies we're already *five times* your guesstimate total.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I get the impression that he/she appears able to post on his /her own behalf without need of you pulling his /her chain.


so the long and the short of it is there is no 'already suggested strategy of attack'. seems your agenda and favoured tactic is becoming apparent.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 13, 2016)

Why do the wanky language thing?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Why do the wanky language thing?


i never thought to hear that from you


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> so the long and the short of it is there is no 'already suggested strategy of attack'. seems your agenda and favoured tactic is becoming apparent.



No. The 'long and short of it is I'll wait for a response from the poster concerned. Sorry.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i never thought to hear that from you



I wasn't on about you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> No. The 'long and short of it is I'll wait for a response from the poster concerned. Sorry.


yeh. you've been called on it and found wanting. and not for the first time.

you're big on making allegations and very short on backing them up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> I wasn't on about you.


ta


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. you've been called on it and found wanting. and not for the first time.
> 
> you're big on making allegations and very short on backing them up.



Allegations? Where is this the case? (I note the use of the plural). Found wanting? Called on it? Not for the first time?


----------



## RedSkin (Aug 13, 2016)

All Im saying about this woman is she doesnt half get about and she is noted for excluding white people from anti-racist actions. Racially dividing the anti-racist movement serves whose interests? Now I'm not saying she could be C.I.A. (or something like that) but...

Lets look at BLMs m.o. Up till now ( and I am totally prepared to stand corrected if, in time they become a broader based democratic organisation, I am not a Leninist! ) Pull of some media headline grabbing stunts in order to 'get people talking', a bit like Greenpeace ( notice not inspire people to action ). Given mainstream media's track record is it the state oppression angle or the racial angle that wil be emphasised. As I said racial divisiveness plays into whose hands?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 13, 2016)

RedSkin said:


> All Im saying about this woman is she doesnt half get about and she is noted for excluding white people from anti-racist actions. Racially dividing the anti-racist movement serves whose interests? Now I'm not saying she could be C.I.A. (or something like that) but...
> 
> Lets look at BLMs m.o. Up till now ( and I am totally prepared to stand corrected if, in time they become a broader based democratic organisation, I am not a Leninist! ) Pull of some media headline grabbing stunts in order to 'get people talking', a bit like Greenpeace ( notice not inspire people to action ). Given mainstream media's track record is it the state oppression angle or the racial angle that wil be emphasised. As I said racial divisiveness plays into whose hands?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Allegations? Where is this the case? (I note the use of the plural). Found wanting? Called on it? Not for the first time?


rather than derail this thread, let's just look at your allegation that butchersapron has 'an already suggested strategy of attack'. go on then. what is this 'already suggested strategy of attack'?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> rather than derail this thread, let's just look at your allegation that butchersapron has 'an already suggested strategy of attack'. go on then. what is this 'already suggested strategy of attack'?



So. Moving away from a generalised accusation you appear to move to a specific point, which I have already addressed. I'm not seeking (nor have I ever sought) to derail this thread.


----------



## Mation (Aug 13, 2016)

likesfish said:


> But the poc experience is very different
> Wikipedia In 1950 there were probably fewer than 20,000 non-white residents in Britain, almost all born oversea they now make up 3% of the population
> 
> slavery and organised discrimination like the Jim crow laws and segregation didn't happen here they also make up 14% of the US history and have been there from the start.
> ...


Thank you for your explanation. It's what we've all been waiting for


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> So. Moving away from a generalised accusation you appear to move to a specific point, which I have already addressed. I'm not seeking (nor have I ever sought) to derail this thread.


big on allegation and short on backing it up.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> big on allegation and short on backing it up.



Allegations? Where is this the case? (I note the use of the plural). Found wanting? Called on it? Not for the first time?


----------



## bimble (Aug 13, 2016)

This thread is embarrassing .


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Allegations? Where is this the case? (I note the use of the plural). Found wanting? Called on it? Not for the first time?


rather than say 'here here and here' i am just concentrating on one example here so this thread doesn't become derailed with looking at things on other threads.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 13, 2016)

bimble said:


> This thread is embarrassing .


From #8 onwards.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> rather than say 'here here and here' i am just concentrating on one example here so this thread doesn't become derailed with looking at things on other threads.



As I have posted previously I'll wait for the poster concerned. You should 'put up' or 'shut up' - feel feel free to pm me if necessary.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 13, 2016)

bimble said:


> This thread is embarrassing .


It's mainly good, i think the shite elements should just have expressive/emasculating gifs thrown at them, end of discussion, have proven themselves to not be up to discussing shit. Bits and pieces needs to ditch his beats reference, i for one am not dancing. Meanwhile in glasgow today, if only i had been down for it  Black Lives Matter protesters gather on Glasgow's Buchanan Street


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> As I have posted previously I'll wait for the poster concerned. You should 'put up' or 'shut up' - feel feel free to pm me if necessary.


If you can't substantiate it for me why should it be any different with butchers?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2016)

bimble said:


> This thread is embarrassing .


Still time to go back and edit


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 13, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Why do the wanky language thing?


It's what wankers do.


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> big on allegation and short on backing it up.



That ought to be your signature, dewey


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Are you really telling a Black woman that the experiences talked about in that video are nothing like the experiences of Black people in the UK?
> 
> Do you seriously think that Black people through out the diaspora have no shared experiences at all?



Where on earth can you possibly live where being black is such an unwelcome novelty to the local population?

I'm 45 and have never batted an eyelid at people of colour, race or religion during my lifetime, nor have my peers...or my peer's parents for that matter.

Your colour is simply not important to most of us.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 14, 2016)

Can't even spell whinging.


----------



## Spymaster (Aug 14, 2016)

stopwhingeing3 said:


> Where on earth can you possibly live where being black is such an unwelcome novelty to the local population?
> 
> I'm 45 and have never batted an eyelid at people of colour, race or religion during my lifetime, nor have my peers...or my peer's parents for that matter.
> 
> Your colour is simply not important to most of us.


Yep. Racism doesn't exist.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 14, 2016)

I think you're racist for even suggesting that it might.


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Can't even spell whinging.



0/10 on the spelling bee :-(


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> Yep. Racism doesn't exist.



Of course it does. Most people aren't racist, though.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2016)

stopwhingeing3 said:


> Of course it does. Most people aren't racist, though.


3


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 14, 2016)

stopwhingeing3 said:


> I can spell cunt though. And aim it you.
> 
> "ItWillNeverWork" ... Yeah, doesn't surprise me. You lot never do.


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


>


Lol. Did you know Bob Mortimer can rip an apple in half with his bare hands?


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> 3



3?

Sorry, what?


----------



## two sheds (Aug 14, 2016)

/10 i think


----------



## two sheds (Aug 14, 2016)

may be /20 though


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

two sheds said:


> /10 i think



Kk. 2 more than I would have given him then for his hand wringing


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 14, 2016)

stopwhingeing3 said:


> Kk. 2 more than I would have given him then for his hand wringing



not hand wringeing?


----------



## two sheds (Aug 14, 2016)

hand wringeing surely

eta ha!


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

two sheds said:


> may be /20 though



Very droll. I bet you're getting laid left, right and centre


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

two sheds said:


> hand wringeing surely
> 
> eta ha!



Lol. That's worth a clap. Ha


----------



## two sheds (Aug 14, 2016)

what you've no doubt got for being laid left right and centre


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 14, 2016)

stopwhingeing3 said:


> 0/10 on the spelling bee :-(





stopwhingeing3 said:


> I can spell cunt though. And aim it you.
> 
> "ItWillNeverWork" ... Yeah, doesn't surprise me. You lot never do.


a hasty edit. Can I give you some advice? you need to counterweight it, makes it quick that way and snaps the verterbrae cleanly. Any other way can lead to prolonged strangulation and I'm sure you don't want that. But get on with it


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

two sheds said:


> what you've no doubt got for being laid left right and centre



Hold on, are you trying to say my opinion has given me, or should given me "the clap"?


----------



## two sheds (Aug 14, 2016)

that doesn't surprise me somehow


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 14, 2016)

stopwhingeing3 said:


> Hold on, are you trying to say my opinion has given me, or should given me "the clap"?


if only it was HIV


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

two sheds said:


> that doesn't surprise me somehow



What doesn't?


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> if only it was HIV



So glad to see you wishing deadly diseases on fellow humans. In another context, your "if only it was HIV" sentiment could be taken as a hate crime


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 14, 2016)

stopwhingeing3 said:


> So glad to see you wishing deadly diseases on fellow humans. In another context, your "if only it was HIV" sentiment could be taken as a hate crime


I've no time for your sort, the only dissapointment with HIV is that the drugs we have today could prolong your existence for a fair amount of time. If you do the right enquiries it is possible to get a loaded pistol for not a lot of money. Thats another option for you. Much quicker too


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 14, 2016)

_your sort never do
_
wasn't that a very very revealing little line.


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I've no time for your sort, the only dissapointment with HIV is that the drugs we have today could prolong your existence for a fair amount of time. If you do the right enquiries it is possible to get a loaded pistol for not a lot of money. Thats another option for you. Much quicker too



My "sort". 

You're saying I ought to stop taking my drugs and/or shoot myself.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 14, 2016)

stopwhingeing3 said:


> stop taking my drugs


lying shit. Just fuck off. You are not welcome here. You are a particularly obnoxious fart in a confined space. You are the smell of fresh vomit on a bus on a hot summer day. Just jog on to comment sections in local newspaper websites where you will be welcomed with open arms


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> lying shit. Just fuck off. You are not welcome here. You are a particularly obnoxious fart in a confined space. You are the smell of fresh vomit on a bus on a hot summer day. Just jog on to comment sections in local newspaper websites where you will be welcomed with open arms



Ladies and gentlemen, that's the voice of DotCommunist ... gracious as always. "Shit", "fuck", "fart", "vomit".


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

Grow up


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 14, 2016)

empty shit from an empty wanker. Rattle the tin of maturity elswhere my pedigree chum because I am basically going to curse you out as much as I like. Given the sneering classism and racism you've displayed, you are due for it. One of the joys of enjoying a wide vocabulary is calling out sneerers who think the use of a little swearing equates to having nothing to say of value. Its all part of a rich tapestry of language and the words you so object to are perfectly suited in the context they were used. So go fuck yourself


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 14, 2016)

Substantiate? Really?


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

DotCommunist: my vocabulary is as broad as yours. You can "fuck me off" as much as you like, but YAWN.


----------



## stopwhingeing3 (Aug 14, 2016)

"Empty shit from an empty wanker". 

That's the voice of peace and love from mr anti-aggression.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 14, 2016)

good job I never claimed to be peaceful then


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 14, 2016)

Where are these cunts coming from? Hopefully it's just a Saturday night thing.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 14, 2016)

I am pretty sure last night's drive by troll has another log on here... Tick, tock, tick, tock.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 14, 2016)

stopwhingeing3 said:


> What doesn't?



And this teaches me to quote the post because the dishonest arsehole went back and edited his post so that mine wasn't relevant any more.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 14, 2016)

Anju said:


> Apologies for not replying to everyone but my dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's on Thursday so I have been struggling to focus. No sympathy required, just don't want to be rude by not responding to anyone making an effort to reply. This seemed the most appropriate post as I could answer and include what I wanted to say.



Sorry to hear about your father.My dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's about 7 years ago, although fortunately he turned out not to have Parkinson's Disease, but rather Parkinsonism - Parkinson's Disease symptoms induced by the combination of prescription medications he'd been given. He still gets the shakes and the stammers - the damage done by the meds is permanent - but at least he hasn't got worse.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 14, 2016)

likesfish said:


> But the poc experience is very different
> Wikipedia In 1950 there were probably fewer than 20,000 non-white residents in Britain, almost all born oversea they now make up 3% of the population
> 
> slavery and organised discrimination like the Jim crow laws and segregation didn't happen here they also make up 14% of the US history and have been there from the start.
> ...



Sorry, but in London and the ports, that was bollocks. Even in fucking Yarmouth they had a small Laskar community from the late 19th century-onward. "Less than 20,000" non-white residents pre-1950 is most likely some racist's wishful thinking.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 14, 2016)

likesfish said:


> But the poc experience is very different
> Wikipedia In 1950 there were probably fewer than 20,000 non-white residents in Britain, almost all born oversea they now make up 3% of the population
> 
> slavery and organised discrimination like the Jim crow laws and segregation didn't happen here they also make up 14% of the US history and have been there from the start.
> ...


Further to my previous post, slavery did happen here, starting with the Irish. Great concentrations of slave owners round Bloomsbury. North London line built on slavery compo, it's all around us. Organised discrimination? Er the implementation of the Sus laws? No blacks no dogs no Irish?


----------



## likesfish (Aug 14, 2016)

Uk goverment didnt have to send the paras into to get black kids into a white school did they?


----------



## A380 (Aug 14, 2016)

Liverpool and Bristol  were built on the slave trade and many there, in London and all over the country profited from it (and not just the ruling class).  

But then we did do this long before the States and most of the rest of Europe. The Royal Navy was the major anti slavery force in the world through the 19th century. With quite a few black sailors serving it it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 14, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Uk goverment didnt have to send the paras into to get black kids into a white school did they?


UK in not identical to the USA shock.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 15, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm no intersectional theorist but things like how it doesn't matter how rich you are, how well connected and educated-in-private-school. Get a tug from the wrong police in the wrong area and you are just another darkie to them and will be treated accordingly. So we can see that sometimes race cuts across class lines


In the roll call of the black people who came a cropper at the hands of police, in - I don't know - say the last 40 years; what ratio of well connected and privately educated (or just plain middle class even) would be needed to validate that particular theory would you say?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 15, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The fact that better resources mean *fewer* issues in some areas isn't the opposite of saying that the issues are multi-demographic, it's merely stating that - as ever - in some places, some slight amelioration takes place.



Squaring the circle is rarely pretty and this effort is no exception. But putting the bluff and bluster to one side, given the scale and grisly nature of the subject matter, the employment of a phrase like "slight amelioration" is still rather striking. Being both prim and sterile it immediately brings to mind descriptions such as  'collateral damage' and 'crossfire', usually employed by state agencies to explain away their involvement in some carnage or other.

But if someone, consciously or otherwise, was looking to find a way to allow for the routine maiming and slaughter of hundreds upon hundreds of black children and teenagers to be addressed apolitically (on the basis that hand-on-heart anti-racists find the statistics embarrassing and would prefer society turned a blind eye - which it is more than happy to do incidentally), the conjuring up of "slight amelioration" in that blood drenched context is more than inspired - it is positively Orwellian.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 15, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Uk goverment didnt have to send the paras into to get black kids into a white school did they?



"um, why are all these children dead, 2 Para?"

"You said to take care of them, sir".


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 15, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> In the roll call of the black people who came a cropper at the hands of police, in - I don't know - say the last 40 years; what ratio of well connected and privately educated (or just plain middle class even) would be needed to validate that particular theory would you say?


Offhand only aware of one m/c person killed by the police in Britain - two depending on where you feel Blair Peach fitted in to the class structure - and that's the barrister mark saunders


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 15, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Squaring the circle is rarely pretty and this effort is no exception. But putting the bluff and bluster to one side, given the scale and grisly nature of the subject matter, the employment of a phrase like "slight amelioration" is still rather striking. Being both prim and sterile it immediately brings to mind descriptions such as  'collateral damage' and 'crossfire', usually employed by state agencies to explain away their involvement in some carnage or other.
> 
> But if someone, consciously or otherwise, was looking to find a way to allow for the routine maiming and slaughter of hundreds upon hundreds of black children and teenagers to be addressed apolitically (on the basis that hand-on-heart anti-racists find the statistics embarrassing and would prefer society turned a blind eye - which it is more than happy to do incidentally), the conjuring up of "slight amelioration" in that blood drenched context is more than inspired - it is positively Orwellian.



Interesting how you can manufacture all of the above out of your own prejudices, Joe. You should be a _Guardian_ journalist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 15, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Interesting how you can manufacture all of the above out of your own prejudices, Joe. You should be a _Guardian_ journalist.


 spelling too good tho


----------



## Wilf (Aug 15, 2016)

Not many details, but ex-Villa footballer dead after tasering.  
'Ex-Aston Villa Player' Dies In Police Tasering


----------



## brogdale (Aug 15, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Not many details, but ex-Villa footballer dead after tasering.
> 'Ex-Aston Villa Player' Dies In Police Tasering


Some pretty disturbing eye-witness accounts of multiple Taser shots and repeated kicking whilst on the ground. C4 News reporting a 15 minute delay in summoning ambulance.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Some pretty disturbing eye-witness accounts of multiple Taser shots and repeated kicking whilst on the ground. C4 News reporting a 15 minute delay in summoning ambulance.


Witness Says Police Kicked And Tasered Man Multiple Times Before He Died


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Some pretty disturbing eye-witness accounts of multiple Taser shots and repeated kicking whilst on the ground. C4 News reporting a 15 minute delay in summoning ambulance.



Don't know what the witnesses are so upset about. Its not as bad as what's happening in America


----------



## teqniq (Aug 15, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Don't know what the witnesses are so upset about. Its not as bad as what's happening in America


Have you read the above? If true it's fucking disgusting.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 15, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Have you read the above? If true it's fucking disgusting.


Check your irony-radar, methinks.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 15, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Have you read the above? If true it's fucking disgusting.



Have you read any of my other posts in this thread 

If true? Really.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 15, 2016)

ah I see


----------



## teqniq (Aug 15, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Have you read any of my other posts in this thread
> 
> If true? Really.


I gave up reading this thread quite some time ago.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 15, 2016)

teqniq said:


> I gave up reading this thread quite some time ago.



What are you doing here then.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 15, 2016)

poptyping said:


> What are you doing here then.


I inadvertently clicked on the post alert. i posted the story on the 'more police brutality' thread. Thought it was that one. Nevermind.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Some pretty disturbing eye-witness accounts of multiple Taser shots and repeated kicking whilst on the ground. C4 News reporting a 15 minute delay in summoning ambulance.


“I can still hear the boots kicking him, I can still hear it. It makes me feel quite sick.” Fucking. Hell.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 15, 2016)

Wilf said:


> “I can still hear the boots kicking him, I can still hear it. It makes me feel quite sick.” Fucking. Hell.



That bit really got me.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 15, 2016)

Wilf said:


> “I can still hear the boots kicking him, I can still hear it. It makes me feel quite sick.” Fucking. Hell.


Unsurprisingly, the BBC were keen to point out that she "_was the only witness making these claims_".


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 15, 2016)

poptyping said:


> That bit really got me.



She has been interviewed on TV news too. It's fucking awful.

On this thread words are cheap though eh?...and having an opinion on this thread means I don't care about  ongoing teenage killings because I need to comment on every fucking thing at every possible moment because I have more melanin than others, apparently that gift of the ability to TAN quicker than others means I have to be super fucking human and protest against/pro/progressively for all things on top of having a full time job, having to juggle my life, passions, responsibilities etc...What the fuck am I saying, every fool knows I should keep doing what I am damn well told...Fine...I'll keep jumping through those impossible, double standard hoops..sure I will I dance to that fucking tune.

NOT. 

What I will do is notice that at least one of these trolling cunts spends part of their time here posting endless Black music and then pointing, trolling and laughing here on this thread. When we step back and don't respond to the baiting...the most simple, obvious things stand out. Absolute, shallow, pretending, waste of my time.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Unsurprisingly, the BBC were keen to point out that she "_was the only witness making these claims_".



Yep noticed that too.


----------



## bimble (Aug 15, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> What I will do is notice that at least one of these trolling cunts spends part of their time here posting endless Black music and then pointing, trolling and laughing here on this thread. When we step back and don't respond to the baiting...the most simple, obvious things stand out. Absolute, shallow, pretending, waste of my time.


I think you mean me. 
If so, please just put me on ignore because I don't want to fight with you and I don't want to try to defend myself against the accusation that 'stopwhingeing3' was actually me, or whatever it is you seem to be saying.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 15, 2016)

I don't actually mean you, Bimble.  AFAICS you haven't trolled this  thread nor do you flood the music threads.

My feelings about that pic you posted and the 'ooops' what are you on about response you gave isn't part of this. I know you aren't that naive so I don't except you have no clue.

If it bothers you, I am happy to continue  that convo in pm. 

The obvious trolling in this thread has plumbed some serious  sewage. Tick tock....


----------



## bimble (Aug 15, 2016)

That happy feeling when you realise you were being paranoid. 
Ok thanks .


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Aug 17, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> She has been interviewed on TV news too. It's fucking awful.
> 
> On this thread words are cheap though eh?...and having an opinion on this thread means I don't care about  ongoing teenage killings because I need to comment on every fucking thing at every possible moment because I have more melanin than others, apparently that gift of the ability to TAN quicker than others means I have to be super fucking human and protest against/pro/progressively for all things on top of having a full time job, having to juggle my life, passions, responsibilities etc...What the fuck am I saying, every fool knows I should keep doing what I am damn well told...Fine...I'll keep jumping through those impossible, double standard hoops..sure I will I dance to that fucking tune.
> 
> ...



You really should stop being the little princess of authenticity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Unsurprisingly, the BBC were keen to point out that she "_was the only witness making these claims_".


I await the results of the autopsy with interest


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> You really should stop being the little princess of authenticity.



Why? Because you don't like it? Because lived experience trumps whatever you have to say?


----------



## teqniq (Aug 18, 2016)

this may be of interest

Police Complaints Clinic – Launch 25th August 2016


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 18, 2016)

Human rights watchdog calls for urgent action on Britain's 'deep-rooted' inequality


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 18, 2016)

teqniq said:


> this may be of interest
> 
> Police Complaints Clinic – Launch 25th August 2016


wonder how many cops will be outside it!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> wonder how many cops will be outside it!



Including or excluding the FIT cunts?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 18, 2016)

teqniq said:


> this may be of interest
> 
> Police Complaints Clinic – Launch 25th August 2016



What with legal aid being fucked over, I like the idea a fund being set up whereby folks who successfully sue the filth for wrongful arrest and whatever else can put some of their compensation back into a pot to help support future cases. I've been talking to some of the BLM folks about this lately, amongst other people.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 19, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Why do you have to be so nasty?  Do you think it makes you look clever or something?



The irony.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 19, 2016)

what a nice person two sheds is


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 19, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Human rights watchdog calls for urgent action on Britain's 'deep-rooted' inequality



Can an individual on a £500,000 a year retainer credibly lecture anyone on 'inequality'.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 21, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Can an individual on a £500,000 a year retainer credibly lecture anyone on 'inequality'.


Sure as long as they don't try and say I know how it feels to be on the bottom rung. I would assume someone on that much knows all about the subject and can explain it in detail.
Have they got any answers which can work ,though?

People need  safe secure and affordable houses and real jobs which allow them to have a life.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 21, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> answers which can work


communism


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 21, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> communism


 But,I hate queues.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 21, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> But,I hate queues.


tescos must be a nightmare then


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 21, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> Sure as long as they don't try and say I know how it feels to be on the bottom rung.


On reflection I should have underscored "_lecture". W_hich someone on £500,000 a year (from his day job) decided was the appropriate tone when delivering the report.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 23, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> The irony.



Piss off, you annoying insect.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 24, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Piss off, you annoying insect.



The irony.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> The irony.


Piss off, you annoying insect.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Piss off, you annoying insect.


come on, can't you be any nastier than that?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Aug 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> come on, can't you be any nastier than that?



Nope.  That's all I've got.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Nope.  That's all I've got.


so kretek's wrong and you're not some vile harridan from another board with a load of character and a bad streak a mile wide


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 24, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Nope.  That's all I've got.



But you do it so well on the other site. Laughing at my depression, asking me if I'm off my meds. Calling me "Paddy". In between your anti immigration rants.

And if it isn't you - why would someone else pretend to be you?


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> so kretek's wrong and you're not some vile harridan from another board with a load of character and a bad streak a mile wide



Oh she's an out and out liar. I'd stake my u75 membership on it.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2016)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Piss off, you annoying insect.


I'm sticking you and krtek a houby  on mutual ignore for a couple of weeks for the sake of boardwide harmony and not having this important thread trashed with beef.


----------



## RedSkin (Aug 27, 2016)

Right straight foward question needs repeating:
Black Lives Matter are a grassroots organisation, controlled by the membership with all designated official posts democratically elected and accountable, UNPAID and instantly recallable by the membership.
YES/NO?


----------



## RedSkin (Aug 30, 2016)

RedSkin said:


> Right straight foward question needs repeating:
> Black Lives Matter are a grassroots organisation, controlled by the membership with all designated official posts democratically elected and accountable, UNPAID and instantly recallable by the membership.
> YES/NO?


From the lack of response, i presume they're not. I declair them the class enemy. Lets go get em!


----------



## RedSkin (Aug 30, 2016)




----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2016)

RedSkin said:


> From the lack of response, i presume they're not. I declair them the class enemy. Lets go get em!


go on then


----------



## RedSkin (Aug 30, 2016)

It was a joke.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 30, 2016)

RedSkin said:


> It was a joke.


You should ask Santa for a thesaurus this Christmas


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2016)

Saul Goodman said:


> You should ask Santa for a thesaurus this Christmas


He's already asking for a life, he can't have both


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2016)

RedSkin said:


> It was a joke.


Brave sir robin


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2016)

new joke book instead?


----------



## RedSkin (Aug 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> He's already asking for a life, he can't have both


I could look up how to spell life in the thesaurus that might be a start!


----------



## RedSkin (Aug 30, 2016)

I know sometimes my spelling's awful. What do you wanna do? Put me in detention?!
(Or maybe some form of re-education camp?!!)


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2016)

No you don't get a second chance you're being sent to iberia


----------



## RedSkin (Aug 30, 2016)

So no one has a problem with an organisation run along the lines of Kick It Out with full time paid poisitions and being part of the established anti racist industry. Tackling police harresment & institutional racism is easier than tackling the greatest threat to black youth, knife crime as has been put across by posters more eloquent than me. I dont know how anyone can support an organisation that is not run on at the very least democratic lines


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2016)

so it wasn't a joke


----------



## two sheds (Aug 30, 2016)

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer my colleague gave a while ago: 



Pickman's model said:


> Brave sir robin


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 6, 2016)

London City Airport invaded by BLM activists.

Black Lives Matters storm runway at London City Airport



> In a statement, Black Lives Matter UK said: "This action was taken in order to highlight the UK's environmental impact on the lives of black people locally and globally.
> 
> "As the largest per capita contributor to global temperature change and yet among the least vulnerable to its deadly effects, the UK leads in ensuring that our climate crisis is a racist crisis."
> 
> The group added that the planned expansion of London City Airport "consigns the local community in Newham to further deterioration of their environment".


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)

Don't mind admitting that i'm confused.
Just watched the explanatory video on their twitter. Poverty/ economics is not mentioned at all, just skin colour, both in terms of climate change impact and also in terms of who lives near airports & busy roads.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Don't mind admitting that i'm confused.
> Just watched the explanatory video on their twitter. Poverty/ economics is not mentioned at all, just skin colour, both in terms of climate change impact and also in terms of who lives near airports & busy roads.



Well, environmental racism is a pretty well established concept in the US though perhaps a bit less so here. The group does a good job of explaining their rationale in the video in the link that SpookyFrank mentions, and to be honest I am glad that they are doing what they are doing. It seems like the whole world has decided to spend less and less attention to climate change the closer we get to making the world uninhabitable. They do mention class in the video, both that London City Airport passengers are far wealthier than the average population and that those who live next to airports are disproportionately working-class.

Linking the current refugee crisis to climate change is smart too, as increasingly large swathes of the planet become uninhabitable it is going to become the new normal.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 6, 2016)

> The protesters reportedly bypassed security by using a rubber dinghy to cross the docks.


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)

this is a photo from the runway apparently.   I wonder if the Plane Stupid protestors have linked up with BLM? (Think I recognise someone)


----------



## D'wards (Sep 6, 2016)

I wonder how many of these protesters spent their "gap yar" travelling in the southern hemisphere


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

D'wards said:


> I wonder how many of these protesters spent their "gap yar" travelling in the southern hemisphere


do you mean 'below the equator' or do you mean 'the global south'?


----------



## J Ed (Sep 6, 2016)

D'wards said:


> I wonder how many of these protesters spent their "gap yar" travelling in the southern hemisphere



I don't know, how many do you think did?


----------



## D'wards (Sep 6, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't know, how many do you think did?


I'll say four


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)

If I am right (about recognising someone in that photo, a Plane Stupid activist) then they recently flew back from Canada where they were learning how to construct wooden eco-houses.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

RedSkin said:


> I dont know how anyone can support an organisation that is not run on at the very least democratic lines


very easily tbh as you'll note next time you go shopping


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> If I am right (about recognising someone in that photo, a Plane Stupid activist) then they recently flew back from Canada where they were learning how to construct wooden eco-houses.




Doesn't matter, the plane was going regardless of whether they were on it or not


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> If I am right (about recognising someone in that photo, a Plane Stupid activist) then they recently flew back from Canada where they were learning how to construct wooden eco-houses.


Then name names - rather than vague insinuation.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 6, 2016)

Even if people have flown somewhere recently, why does that matter in the scheme of things? If only saints are allowed to do anything positive then nothing positive will ever be done.


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)

I probably shouldn't have said anything, and putting his name here without permission would feel wrong. Anyway I might be mistaken.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> I probably shouldn't have said anything, and putting his name here without permission would feel wrong. Anyway I might be mistaken.


ffs


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Soft bad-jacketing already. And it's not even 10.


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Soft bad-jacketing already. And it's not even 10.


I don't know what that means.
I can see that Plane Stupid's website is headed by a statement of solidarity with BLMUK ("Our movements have a lot to learn from one another and have so much in
common.") Will try to contact the man I think I recognise & ask him, but he's probably busy at the moment. Plane Stupid - bringing the aviation industry back down to earth!


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> I don't know what that means.
> I can see that Plane Stupid's website is headed by a statement of solidarity with BLMUK. Will try to contact the man I think I recognise & ask him, but he's probably busy at the moment. Plane Stupid - bringing the aviation industry back down to earth!


Name names then. Or don't start posting publicly about his hypocrisy, then say you shouldn't -  then do it again.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> I don't know what that means.


*Bad-Jacketing* is a technique used to isolate and eliminate individuals from playing an effective role in an organization, movement, or community. It generally involves slandering them .....


----------



## two sheds (Sep 6, 2016)

Isn't outing him likely to get him into trouble?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Anayway, this move into class based moralism by BLM seems to have proven lots of my worse fears right.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 6, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Isn't outing him likely to get him into trouble?




If he is in that picture I'd imagine it hardly matters, tbf.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Isn't outing him likely to get him into trouble?


I'm not asking bimble to out them but to a) stop smearing by vague suggestion or b) if there's a horrible hypocrisy at work to point it out properly not by vague suggestion.


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)

Whether or not in my opinion some young white guy that I vaguely know is hypocritical for choosing to fly and being a vocal protestor against flying is so totally irrelevant to the thread. I do regret saying it.
It's kind of interesting if BLMUK and Plane Stupid have linked together for this action though if that is indeed what's happened.


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 6, 2016)

Did any other urbs hear John Humphries on Today ask the reporter on the scene ' How long before the police get rid of em?'
Poor choice of phrase for a news reader I thought.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Poor choice if anything if he's involved - he's shown his biases so often that i think he must be a regular on the BBC is shit thread.

Anyway, in terms of content, this is, to my mind, a significant and demoralising de-escalation. When Plane Stupid were down to be infiltrated the coppers had to find someone who went to oxbridge to do it.


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)




----------



## Supine (Sep 6, 2016)

A protestor on the news just now sounded like a right idiot. Trying to explain how the aviation industry was racist completely flummoxed the interviewer


----------



## dylanredefined (Sep 6, 2016)

They don't have any of the issues the US branch has to be hysterical about, so they make up random shit to look relevant and justify their 'protests'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> They don't have any of the issues the US branch has to be hysterical about, so they make up random shit to look relevant and justify their 'protests'.


yes, the americans are just being unnecessarily emotional about the surprising rapidity with which black men and women are killed by the police. 

even for you that's a bit shit.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> They don't have any of the issues the US branch has to be hysterical about, so they make up random shit to look relevant and justify their 'protests'.


Not a-fucking-gain. Is there some school where they produce you pricks?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> Did any other urbs hear John Humphries on Today ask the reporter on the scene ' How long before the police get rid of em?'
> Poor choice of phrase for a news reader I thought.


john humphrys is a broadcaster, not a mere news reader


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> They don't have any of the issues the US branch has to be hysterical about, so they make up random shit to look relevant and justify their 'protests'.


This _they _ is it something that you would normally use?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> They don't have any of the issues the US branch has to be hysterical about, so they make up random shit to look relevant and justify their 'protests'.



Attention seekers, the lot of them.


----------



## gosub (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This _they _ is it something that you would normally use?









Hideously white, as this forum would say.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 6, 2016)

gosub said:


> Hideously white, as this forum would say.




Less chance of getting shot, inn'it.


----------



## Dowie (Sep 6, 2016)

this is hilarious, a bunch of white gap year types block an airport to protest against planes because climate change is racist? Or something like that... it seems pretty far removed from the very real issue of young black men being shot at alarming rate by US police. Not really very helpful for these trustafarians to hijack the movement and protest against increasingly bizare and wide ranging things, kind of dilutes the message and isn't going to get much public support.


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> john humphrys is a broadcaster, not a mere news reader



A broadcaster who is professional enough to fill in as a political commentator and occasional newsreader.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

gosub said:


> Hideously white, as this forum would say.


Not sure you're _quite _using the term correctly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

Dowie said:


> this is hilarious, a bunch of white gap year types block an airport to protest against planes because climate change is racist? Or something like that... it seems pretty far removed from the very real issue of young black men being shot at alarming rate by US police. Not really very helpful for these trustafarians to hijack the movement and protest against increasingly bizare and wide ranging things, kind of dilutes the message and isn't going to get much public support.


perhaps you could share with us the origin of your knowledge of these people's gap year status and the source of their income.


----------



## dylanredefined (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This _they _ is it something that you would normally use?



Yes why not?
*Usage*
The word *they* (with its counterparts *them*, *their*, and *themselves*) as a singular pronoun to refer to a person of unspecified gender has been used since at least the 16th century. In the late 20th century, as the traditional use of *he* to refer to a person of either gender came under scrutiny on the grounds of sexism, this use of *they* became more common. It is now generally accepted in contexts where it follows an indefinite pronoun such as *anyone*, *no one*, *someone*, or *a person*, as in _*anyone* can join if *they* are a resident_ and _*each* to *their*own_. In other contexts, coming after singular nouns, the use of *they* is now common, though less widely accepted, especially in formal contexts. Sentences such as _ask *a friend* if*they* could help_ are still criticized for being ungrammatical. Nevertheless, in view of the growing acceptance of *they* and its obvious practical advantages, *they* is used in this dictionary in many cases where *he* would have been used formerly. In a more recent development, *they* is now being used to refer to specific individuals (as in _Alex is bringing their laptop_). Like the gender-neutral honorific Mx1, the singular *they* is preferred by some individuals who identify as neither male nor female. See also he (usage) and she (usage).


----------



## gosub (Sep 6, 2016)

Health & Safety gone mad.  Whats wrong with a good old fashioned game of chicken?


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)

Haven't found a single supportive tweet yet, or comment, where comments are allowed, everyone just seems to be taking the piss and assuming the protestors in the pictures are all called Tarquin. Hard to see the positive outcomes of this action for anyone to be honest.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 6, 2016)

How do this lot present themselves in relation to BLM?

I went to some event recently and there was a guy there giving a very brief talk. He was a white American, from the Detroit Satanic Temple, describing how they've been involved with BLM. He was very careful to describe himself as an 'accomplice', which is the label they give to him, not least to avoid any kind of appropriation. Good term I thought. Do British linkups like the above bother to go about it in the same way?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Haven't found a single supportive tweet yet, or comment, where comments are allowed, everyone just seems to be taking the piss and assuming the protestors in the pictures are all called Tarquin. Hard to see the positive outcomes of this action for anyone to be honest.


i don't know, it's diverted me for a few minutes. i am sure other people feel positive about it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Haven't found a single supportive tweet yet, or comment, where comments are allowed, everyone just seems to be taking the piss and assuming the protestors in the pictures are all called Tarquin. Hard to see the positive outcomes of this action for anyone to be honest.



Depends whether you are someone who bases your opinions solely on the contents of tweets/twitter/other people's comments surely?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

mauvais said:


> How do this lot present themselves in relation to BLM?
> 
> I went to some event recently and there was a guy there giving a very brief talk. He was a white American, from the Detroit Satanic Temple, describing how they've been involved with BLM. He was very careful to describe himself as an 'accomplice', which is the label they give to him, not least to avoid any kind of appropriation. Good term I thought. Do British linkups like the above bother to go about it in the same way?


not sure how many british satanists there are involved with anti-racist work.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

I suspect this lot are American ones who did a horrible statue, charged journos to come have a look at _the shock _then donated the money to anti fascist groups. A nice way of earning some money and having a laugh at the same time.


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Depends whether you are someone who bases your opinions solely on the contents of tweets/twitter/other people's comments surely?


Do you think this mornings action will have positive awareness raising effects on issues around racism in the uk?


----------



## gosub (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Do you think this mornings action will have positive awareness raising effects on issues around racism in the uk?


Found out you can get a flight to Edinburgh for £34. Result.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I suspect this lot are American ones who did a horrible statue, charged journos to come have a look at _the shock _then donated the money to anti fascist groups. A nice way of earning some money and having a laugh at the same time.


A fair breadth of activism including abortion advice, alert apps for sex workers, and I think in this context, apps to increase the profile of police shootings. I've forgotten the exact details. There's probably a video of what he said somewhere including the point above but I haven't found it yet.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

mauvais said:


> A fair breadth of activism including abortion advice, alert apps for sex workers, and I think in this context, apps to increase the profile of police shootings. I've forgotten the exact details. There's probably a video of what he said somewhere including the point above but I haven't found it yet.


These ones i think.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 6, 2016)

The video does exist but it's particularly fiddly. You need the Periscope app (can't watch on the web) and it starts 53 minutes in.

Tech for Good @techforgoodMCR

Quick and probably inaccurate transcript:



			
				speech said:
			
		

> the other organisation I work with is BLM Detroit. I'm not a member - I cannot be a member because I'm not black. I think that's really important. A lot of developers in this room work with scrum, right? You guys all know the pig and the chicken joke. A chicken asks a pig if he wants to start a restaurant. I dunno, what would you name it? 'Ham and Eggs'. And the pig says, I don't think so - you're just involved, it would be a commitment for me.
> 
> And that's important to realise in my activism as a supporting partner. They don't consider me an ally, they consider me an accomplice. It's important for me to not insert my white privilege into what they're doing because the point of it is to destroy whiteness and white supremacy - so inserting WP into what they're doing is not productive for black power movements


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 6, 2016)




----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 6, 2016)

Still working out what I think about that lot.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 6, 2016)

I suppose the first thing to say is that it does seem like a leap away from the tight focus on state violence against black communities that BLM is known for.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Still working out what I think about that lot.


A demand for mass participation in flights? Away from an elite?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I suppose the first thing to say is that it does seem like a leap away from the tight focus on state violence against black communities that BLM is known for.


If this is what's come out of the after-talks of the last actions, well, fuck that.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> A demand for mass participation in flights? Away from an elite?



Well yes it's that, or saying that flying is morally bad and should be stopped now. 

so, yes, that (if those are the two options). But it's a weird demand.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 6, 2016)

Dowie said:


> this is hilarious, a bunch of white gap year types block an airport to protest against planes because climate change is racist?


They really are on a different planet.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well yes it's that, or saying that flying is morally bad and should be stopped now.
> 
> so, yes, that. But it's a weird demand.


It's not the demand at all though is it? I wish it were. It's the latter - shorn of any understanding of how mass transit and the distribution networks of capital operate - beyond a crass recognition that climate change effects the poorest, those least able to deal with it, and a racialising of that economics. This is rubbish.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 6, 2016)

It's almost like they've said "OK we've done deaths in custody, what's next?"


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's not the demand at all though is it? I wish it were. It's the latter - shorn of any understanding of how mass transit and the distribution networks of capital operate - beyond a crass recognition that climate change effects the poorest, those least able to deal with it, and a racialising of that economics. This is rubbish.



Well no, there isn't really a demand at all, beyond _"this is bad (look at me)"._


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well no, there isn't really a demand at all, beyond _"this is bad (look at me)"._



Maybe this reflects who actually turned up to the after-meetings after the great actions this thread originally talked about. If so, something that can be turned by _hey guys listen to our activist experience and agenda_ is not even the start of a social movement. I expect some _serious internal discussion _wil follow. If it doesn't, waste.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Do you think this mornings action will have positive awareness raising effects on issues around racism in the uk?




I have a job where I actually have to do some work so, once I have a chance to give it all my attention I will be able to form an opinion.

What is clear to me already though is that BLMUK, with this action isn't just focusing on _'issues around racism in the uk' _. Are you suggesting that they should be _only_ doing that?

Generally speaking, I see them attempting to join the dots and show how global issues/interests impact the lives of Black people... On this particular action, like I said, I haven't been able to give it my full attention.


----------



## YouSir (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Maybe this reflects who actually turned up to the after-meetings after the great actions this thread originally talked about. If so, something that can be turned by _hey guys listen to our activist experience and agenda_ is not even the start of a social movement. I expect some _serious internal discussion _wil follow. If it doesn't, waste.



How coherent is BLM? One person I've spoken to who went on to get involved didn't seem to see it as being particularly coherent beyond the portion of people they knew.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

YouSir said:


> How coherent is BLM? One person I've spoken to who went on to get involved didn't seem to see it as being particularly coherent beyond the portion of people they knew.


Then there's nothing and it's just open to poshoes to bung their own agenda on.


----------



## YouSir (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Then there's nothing and it's just open to poshoes to bung their own agenda on.



In part maybe. May be other portions who'll ignore stuff like this and push on in other directions. Or disown the appropriation. Or not.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

YouSir said:


> In part maybe. May be other portions who'll ignore stuff like this and push on in other directions. Or disown the appropriation. Or not.


That's why what happens next - if there's internal anger (can there be anything internal?) or support - determines what happens next.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 6, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> On this particular action, like I said, I haven't been able to give it my full attention.



Same goes for the individuals who actually planned it.


----------



## bi0boy (Sep 6, 2016)

Its almost like this protest was instigated by 4chan, like the free bleeding thing.


----------



## sovereignb (Sep 6, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


>




This doesnt make any sense. It actually makes the movement sound ridiculous, which the original cause is not.

And i found it interesting that the news report i saw didnt actually show the protesters, just the Police and vans surrounding them.


----------



## Mation (Sep 6, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


>



This is a disgrace. They can fuck right off.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 6, 2016)

OK, so the video in the tweet below repeats some of the stuff in the tweets quoted above but also makes the points that


the average income of someone who flies via City Airport is 92k
whereas the average income of residents around the airport is £22k (ish can't remember the exact figure).

And local residents will be the ones who are mainly affected by the air pollution (and they are more likely to be black) than users of the airport.

It makes the demand that there is no further expansion of the airport.

That is all much better.


----------



## sovereignb (Sep 6, 2016)

Definetely seems to be another agenda at play there...


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Do you think this mornings action will have positive awareness raising effects on issues around racism in the uk?



Absolutely not, quite the opposite.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


>




What on earth does 'black' mean in this context?!!


----------



## gosub (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> What on earth does 'black' mean in this context?!!


that being ecowarrior isn't sexy enough anymore, find a trending bandwagon and hijack it.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> OK, so the video in the tweet below repeats some of the stuff in the tweets quoted above but also makes the points that
> 
> 
> the average income of someone who flies via City Airport is 92k
> ...



It makes the odd choice of target better exaplained. The choice of of target itself, Nah, fyck that,


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

_Distribute the cancer equally._


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It makes the odd choice of target better exaplained. The choice of of target itself, Nah, fyck that,



Really? If there is a claim that most of those likely to be effected by air pollution are black - where is the evidence? What on earth does 'black' mean? It appears to be an increasingly flexible label that can be manipulated, appropriated and claimed by anyone (especially if accepted as no more than a 'social construct'). FFS.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> OK, so the video in the tweet below repeats some of the stuff in the tweets quoted above but also makes the points that
> 
> 
> the average income of someone who flies via City Airport is 92k
> ...


It is, but it's rubbish. The eliding of black and w/c Who produced this? Did my mum have a say?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

W/C = working class?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

_More elite black business passengers._


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> W/C = working class?


Yes.

This is the discursive  field within which this is currently being configured.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

_Butcher's bifurcation and materialist posturing_


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> _Butcher's bifurcation and materialist posturing_


Real things don't matter.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Yes.
> 
> This is the discursive  field within which this is currently being configured.



Except there is _never_ a single discursive field - and if you truly wanted to engage in such an argument your interest would be in identifying the negative spaces and silences within any such postulated field.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Real things don't matter.



_There is such a thing as 'the real'._


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 6, 2016)

Fuck off.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Except there is _never_ a single discursive field - and if you truly wanted to engage in such an argument your interest would be in identifying the negative spaces and silences within any such postulated field.


Question begging. I don't want to engage in any blah blah

Crack on with your game.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Fuck off.



Oh. Bless the cupcake.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Fuck off.


Hang on, we construct the real. Wow. Anyone want to swap?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Question begging. I don't want to engage in any blah blah
> 
> Crack on with your game.



You want to play then I will play.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> You want to play then I will play.


You just lost.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, we construct the real. Wow. Anyone want to swap?



_Butchers loves Hegel_


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Oh. Bless the cupcake.



You're not impressing anybody.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 6, 2016)

Well, one thing is for sure the action has certainly got a fair amount of attention.

From an outsider looking in the whole thing does look a bit muddled though.  Whilst I do get the point they are making it is not an easy point to make in this way and seems to dilute the simple strong message the movement has been about.  The whole thing looks a bit like a movement has been co-opted by another movement.  I dunno, its hard to know exactly what outcome they were going for but a group of white people protesting against airport expansion seems a long way from the roots of the movement.

Still, a runway doesn't strike me as a very safe place to have a lie down so I'm glad no one got hurt.  I suspect they might have the book thrown at them though for this.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> You're not impressing anybody.



I'm not trying to impress anyone . If you have a problem be clear, otherwise fuck off.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Well, one thing is for sure the action has certainly got a fair amount of attention.



In this instance the old adage that there is no such thing as bad publicity will not be case. 

It will also be instructive to learn how many of the demonstrators are actually part of the local community and what consultation and dialogue has taken place with those living - and presumably in some cases working - at the airport (or at least the black section of it given the action is in their name).


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I'm not trying to impress anyone


good. because otherwise you'd be a failure.


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)

Some people who know what they're talking about are being outspokenly very angry about this, calling it a hijacking by a bunch of muppets etc. Hopefully something good will come of it one way or another.
 eg) Stafford Scott (@StaffordScott_) on Twitter


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In this instance the old adage that there is no such thing as bad publicity will not be case.
> 
> It will also be instructive to learn how many of the demonstrators are actually part of the local community and what consultation and dialogue has taken place with those living - and presumably in some cases working - at the airport (or at least the black section of it given the action is in their name).



There is likely to have been very little consultation, and the likelihood of a representational correspondence between the self-appointed champions and the local community is slim. I am, of course, willing to be convinced otherwise.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> good. because otherwise you'd be a failure.



You think? Why do you think your view matters? What authority do you think you have regarding the BLM campaign? What is your authentically derived experience that is of such potential importance in this regard? 

Go on. Tell me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> You think? Why do you think your view matters? What authority do you think you have regarding the BLM campaign? What is your authentically derived experience that is of such potential importance in this regard?
> 
> Go on. Tell me.


yes.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> Some people who know what they're talking about are being outspokenly very angry about this, calling it a hijacking by a bunch of muppets etc. Hopefully something good will come of it one way or another.
> eg) Stafford Scott (@StaffordScott_) on Twitter
> 
> View attachment 92109


Why are 100+ Jamaicans going to be deported?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> good. because otherwise you'd be a failure.



I'm guessing that uou a


Pickman's model said:


> yes.



I expected better of you. No reply to a direct question.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I'm guessing that uou a


are you having a stroke or something?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I expected better of you. No reply to a direct question.


seems like you don't know a reply to a direct question when you ask one.


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Why are 100+ Jamaicans going to be deported?


I didn't know they charter whole flights full of deportees but the 2 flights to ja i've been on both had deportees on, physically strapped into their seats and guarded by 2 big white guys, prison or immigration police I don't know.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> seems like you don't know a reply to a direct question when you ask one.



It seems like you don't have an answer. So, as VP asked me, what authority or experience do you think you have to comment on these matters? I would be very happy to suggest that you are not 'black' according to any particular societal or linguistic framework. Unless you are going to attempt to use it as a term of commonality in regard to experience?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

bimble said:


> I didn't know they charter whole flights full of deportees but the 2 flights to ja i've been on both had deportees on, physically strapped into their seats and guarded by 2 big white guys, prison or immigration police I don't know.



If you don't know why comment?


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)

Sorry to interrupt your fascinating debate with pickman's, you carry on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> It seems like you don't have an answer. So, as VP asked me, what authority or experience do you think you have to comment on these matters?


this is urban. commenting on matters is what we do. we don't need no stinking authority or experience.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> It seems like you don't have an answer. So, as VP asked me, what authority or experience do you think you have to comment on these matters? I would be very happy to suggest that you are not 'black' according to any particular societal or linguistic framework. Unless you are going to attempt to use it as a term of commonality in regard to experience?


Probably the experience of being an Arsenal supporter


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> this is urban. commenting on matters is what we do. we don't need no stinking authority or experience.



Thank you for a reply that says so much about your dissembling and dishonesty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> If you don't know why comment?


i get the feeling you shouldn't be on urban, you don't seem comfy with the way we do things round here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Thank you for a reply that says so much about your dissembling and dishonesty.


you're welcome. i have been watching your dissembling and dishonesty with pleasure - it's always good to see a master at work.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 6, 2016)

D'wards said:


> I wonder how many of these protesters spent their "gap yar" travelling in the southern hemisphere



Lisa McKenzie made simillar remarks about the BLM folks blocking the road in Nottingham. She's since changed tack on this and started praising them (turns out they weren't posh students but ordinary working folk and Nottingham natives all) without actually retracting her earlier remarks or aknowledging that she fucked up.

Moral of the story, do your research before you make shitty insinuations about people and you run less risk of looking a twat later on


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 6, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Anayway, this move into class based moralism by BLM seems to have proven lots of my worse fears right.



You're afraid they're stealing your schtick?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 6, 2016)

White allyship/ black leadership apparantly


----------



## gosub (Sep 6, 2016)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Why are 100+ Jamaicans going to be deported?



The39thStep

This includes some examples of people who are being deported and why.

Do your parenting by Skype, UK tells fathers being deported to Jamaica


----------



## mauvais (Sep 6, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> White allyship/ black leadership apparantly


That's from this:



Seems like shooting any coherent movement in the foot on a variety of different levels. How long before the SWP & STWC placards?


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 6, 2016)

mauvais said:


> That's from this:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like shooting any coherent movement in the foot on a variety of different levels. How long before the SWP & STWC placards?




Yes, the first tweet is obviously correct but this just feels like co-opting or piggy backing on a movement to make a point which is for the protesters.  The justification does feel a bit esoteric, particularly when you look at the roots of the movement and then read the article that Rutita posted.


----------



## seventh bullet (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I'm not trying to impress anyone . If you have a problem be clear, otherwise fuck off.



I think that's your problem.


----------



## bimble (Sep 6, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> This includes some examples of people who are being deported and why.
> 
> Do your parenting by Skype, UK tells fathers being deported to Jamaica



Fucking hell. This bit, from the home office's letter explaining to someone why they're being forcibly deported on that flight tomorrow;


----------



## sihhi (Sep 6, 2016)

More on Operation Nexus here 

and how degrading 'deport first; listen to appeals later from abroad' can be


----------



## gosub (Sep 6, 2016)

Home Office: A call for change


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

gosub said:


> Home Office: A call for change



that's an orwellian design


----------



## two sheds (Sep 6, 2016)

Beneviolence


----------



## Buckaroo (Sep 6, 2016)




----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> What on earth does 'black' mean in this context?!!



It appears to mean "non-white, non-western".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Except there is _never_ a single discursive field - and if you truly wanted to engage in such an argument your interest would be in identifying the negative spaces and silences within any such postulated field.



Of course there's never a single discursive field, but there's always a hegemonic (although contingently so) discursive field.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2016)

If anyone is actually interested BARAC amongst many others are all over the deportation flight tomorrow as they are routinely with other stuff that doesn't make the mainstream news.




> *Barac Zita*
> 10 mins ·
> Updated with new numbers
> 
> ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 6, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> _Butchers loves Hegel_



Not even Hegel loved Hegel.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 6, 2016)

SWP faction in BLM UK doing what it always does then, acts without consent or consultation and damages the movement in the process with stupid shit like this...


.


----------



## gosub (Sep 6, 2016)

Kid_Eternity said:


> SWP faction in BLM UK doing what it always does then, acts without consent or consultation and damages the movement in the process with stupid shit like this...
> 
> 
> .


The Jamaican deportation has been a good salvage though.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 6, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I suppose the first thing to say is that it does seem like a leap away from the tight focus on state violence against black communities that BLM is known for.



It's royally pissed off some of the families who've had their loved ones killed by the police...


.


----------



## treelover (Sep 6, 2016)

Incredible the interest this issue generates, its an important issue, but today there were protest all over UK about disability rights, benefit sanctions, etc, very little support, even though lives are being lost, the hierarchy of oppression seems all to real,

btw, couldn't give a fuck what people do to challenge my comments,


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 6, 2016)

YouSir said:


> How coherent is BLM? One person I've spoken to who went on to get involved didn't seem to see it as being particularly coherent beyond the portion of people they knew.



BLM UK steering group made up of new young activists, family members of police killed, the SWP and Lee Jasper amongst others.


.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2016)

Kid_Eternity said:


> BLM UK steering group made up of new young activists, family members of police killed, the SWP and Lee Jasper amongst others.
> 
> 
> .


disappointed people still work with opportunist rape apologists.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 6, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Probably the experience of being an Arsenal supporter



Or "loser who is ignorant of football", as they're known.


----------



## killer b (Sep 6, 2016)

treelover said:


> Incredible the interest this issue generates, its an important issue, but today there were protest all over UK about disability rights, benefit sanctions, etc, very little support, even though lives are being lost, the hierarchy of oppression seems all to real,
> 
> btw, couldn't give a fuck what people do to challenge my comments,


It's the nature of the protest that's generated the column inches, not the nobility of the cause.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2016)

Protest at Jamaican embassy against deportation flight


----------



## IC3D (Sep 6, 2016)

Cameron bought Jamaica a state of the art prison for its independence anniversary didn't he? Presumably so no human rights pleas can be lodged for these deportees


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2016)

IC3D said:


> Cameron bought Jamaica a state of the art prison for its independence anniversary didn't he? Presumably so no human rights pleas can be lodged for these deportees


That's a very good point. 

Connected or not...the protests are targeting the JA government collusion in these deportations.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> disappointed people still work with opportunist rape apologists.



BLMUK is still young. I'm sure they'll soon figure out that the SWP are best avoided.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Sep 7, 2016)

Have the swp definitely gotten involved with BLMUK then?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> Have the swp definitely gotten involved with BLMUK then?



There are no swappies involved in the local group as far as I know.

e2a: There are a couple of RCG types involved I think, but not being a student of trot sect dynamics I can't remember if they're separate from, a subgroup of or an entryist front within the SWP.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Sep 7, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> There are no swappies involved in the local group as far as I know.
> 
> e2a: There are a couple of RCG types involved I think, but not being a student of trot sect dynamics I can't remember if they're separate from, a subgroup of or an entryist front within the SWP.



What is RCG?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 7, 2016)

poptyping said:


> What is RCG?



Revolutionary Communist Group I think? Their paper is called Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! because everyone takes you seriously if you put exclamation marks in the titles of your publications.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Revolutionary Communist Group I think? Their paper is called Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! because everyone takes you seriously if you put exclamation marks in the titles of your publications.


¡Alfaro Vive, Carajo!


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It appears to mean "non-white, non-western".



So general as to be rendered meaningless.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course there's never a single discursive field, but there's always a hegemonic (although contingently so) discursive field.



You will know that I do not agree with this analysis, especially the use of your term 'hegemonic', which must be utterly rejected. You know this, of course, as I am sure we have differing perspectives, even whilst recognising the possibility of similar problems.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 7, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> So general as to be rendered meaningless.



I'm not sure that matters to BLM, given the basis of the argument appears to be to establish a binary opposition along the lines of "white/(relatively) wealthy/western = bad. Black/poor/non-western = good".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 7, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> You will know that I do not agree with this analysis, especially the use of your term 'hegemonic', which must be utterly rejected. You know this, of course, as I am sure we have differing perspectives, even whilst recognising the possibility of similar problems.



All "hegemonic" means here is that one particular field is currently dominant. Whether you agree with the analysis is immaterial.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 7, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Protest at Jamaican embassy against deportation flight



_Sara Amanda_
_4 hrs · 

Update on #Jamaica50 a total of 7 clients were taken off the flight as their solicitors continued to fight with injunctions.

Apparently the flight left at 4.30am, and passengers were being moved as we spoke. I've had me some very upsetting messages from partners of deportees#heartbreaking.

Here's just one:
My partner was on that plane this morning,he had access to a phone,i heard screaming crying.one young man shouting murderers all of u,over and over again shouting he was british. my partner described people being strapped to chairs by there head and body unable to move...

This isn't the end we are now MORE AWARE now. The info is limited this is why most of us only found out two days ago. There's going to be more flights..._


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> All "hegemonic" means here is that one particular field is currently dominant. Whether you agree with the analysis is immaterial.



It matters hugely, as the idea of a particular field being dominant is _too_ simplistic - what is the field - how does it function - how does it act as a contingency (rather than a cause).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 7, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> It matters hugely, as the idea of a particular field being dominant is _too_ simplistic - what is the field - how does it function - how does it act as a contingency (rather than a cause).



Of course it's simplistic! It's a tool for getting a handle on a set of ideas, not an analytical engine in its own right!

While I'd love to debate post-Foucauldian discursive dynamics, why not start a new thread, rather than using this one as a launch-pad?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> It matters hugely, as the idea of a particular field being dominant is _too_ simplistic - what is the field - how does it function - how does it act as a contingency (rather than a cause).


i see you want to hedge things in a bit


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course it's simplistic! It's a tool for getting a handle on a set of ideas, not an analytical engine in its own right!
> 
> While I'd love to debate post-Foucauldian discursive dynamics, why not start a new thread, rather than using this one as a launch-pad?



I'm not sure that it would make a particularly interesting thread, and launching such a discussion here was not my intention. A discussion for elsewhere perhaps?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I'm not sure that it would make a particularly interesting thread, and launching such a discussion here was not my intention. A discussion for elsewhere perhaps?


perhaps not.


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2016)

So yep, at leat 2 of those people on the runway at City are Plane Stupid activists. 
Climate campaigners among arrested London City airport protesters


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> So yep, at leat 2 of those people on the runway at City are Plane Stupid activists.
> Climate campaigners among arrested London City airport protesters


so your chum was among them


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 8, 2016)

How many of these live on the working class estates around the airport?


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2016)

The DM is having a great time with this, of course, gleefully displaying pictures of one of them who whilst at Oxford blacked up and did jazz hands whilst on holiday in St Lucia, another who was president of the oxford croquet club etc


----------



## Thimble Queen (Sep 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> The DM is having a great time with this, of course, gleefully displaying pictures of one of them who whilst at Oxford blacked up and did jazz hands whilst on holiday in St Lucia, another who was president of the oxford croquet club etc



Adam Elliot Cooper is a black man. The photos of him in St Lucia are in a mudbath. That's not the same as blacking up. Anyway he's an actual blacK man. How on earth is having a mudbath blacking up


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2016)

^ Good lesson for me in not copying daily mail outrage without at least having a google first. I think they jumped at the 'pretending to be in the minstrels' comment but you're right, that is not at all the same thing.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> The DM is having a great time with this, of course, gleefully displaying pictures of one of them who whilst at Oxford blacked up and did jazz hands whilst on holiday in St Lucia, another who was president of the oxford croquet club etc


Fuck the Daily Mail.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 8, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> It matters hugely, as the idea of a particular field being dominant is _too_ simplistic - what is the field - how does it function - how does it act as a contingency (rather than a cause).


It all depends on whether you referring to Gramscian or Bourdieusian fields, surely?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> It all depends on whether you referring to Gramscian or Bourdieusian fields, surely?


not to mention if it has manure all over it


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 8, 2016)

What role should white allies play in the Black Lives Matter UK movement? | Charlie Brinkhurst-Cuff and Kehinde Andrews


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Revolutionary Communist Group I think? Their paper is called Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! because everyone takes you seriously if you put exclamation marks in the titles of your publications.


Interestingly, the Grand Furedi was once a member of the RCG before him and his acolytes were turfed out.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 8, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How many of these live on the working class estates around the airport?



Yes.  And how many yuppie flats have been (and will be) built in the area?  How many wealthy areas live in the shadow of Heathrow and Gatwick? Heathrow being particularly pertinent given the massive expansion planned.  Airport expansion and air quality should be seen as something that effects us all.  I get the wider point about global warming disproportionately effecting less wealthier countries but personally I think Plane Stupid would have been better off sticking to their simple clear message.

As for BLM, well the comment pieces that Rutita posted above sum it up better then I could, especially the points made by Kehinde Andrews.  This just serves to muddy the water and could potentially undermine the message and alienate supporters.

I think it was a brave, risky and worthy protest (expansion at City Airport is utterly daft), which will no doubt come at a personal cost to those involved.  I just think they did it under the wrong banner.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 8, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I think it was a brave, risky and worthy protest (expansion at City Airport is utterly daft), which will no doubt come at a personal cost to those involved.  I just think they did it under the wrong banner.



According to BLM UK this was their action with white allyship acting under black leadership - are you saying they are wrong?


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 8, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> According to BLM UK this was their action with white allyship acting under black leadership - are you saying they are wrong?



I have no idea how the decision making process is carried out in BLM and who came up with this idea and who approached who.  What I am saying though is that it looks like muddled thinking.  Did you read the comment pieces in the link posted above?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 8, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I have no idea how the decision making process is carried out in BLM and who came up with this idea and who approached who.  What I am saying though is that it looks like muddled thinking.  Did you read the comment pieces in the link posted above?



BLM UK were clear - this is an race issue. Presumably those chaining themselves in agree.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 8, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> BLM UK were clear - this is an race issue. Presumably those chaining themselves in agree.



Neither of those things are in dispute.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> What role should white allies play in the Black Lives Matter UK movement? | Charlie Brinkhurst-Cuff and Kehinde Andrews


The pro-allyship argument is particularly convoluted.


> I imagine BLM UK was considering the safety of their protesters when they allowed the nine white runway hijackers to cross the Thames and take their short-lived stand. As the Met chief Bernard Hogan-Howe admitted last year, accusations that the police force is “institutionally racist” have “some justification”. Perhaps, in this instance, black lives really did matter and they were prioritised.


So the airport protesters were _deliberately _white because white people don't get such a beating from the Met Police? Really? And what if this even is the case - what does it mean for BLM?

Not to mention the linking - explicitly by BLM Twitter, implicitly by this author - of climate change to not just racism but Syrian/ME migration.


----------



## gosub (Sep 8, 2016)

mauvais said:


> The pro-allyship argument is particularly convoluted.
> So the airport protesters were _deliberately _white because white people don't get such a beating from the Met Police? Really? And what if this even is the case - what does it mean for BLM?
> 
> Not to mention the linking - explicitly by BLM Twitter, implicitly by this author - of climate change to not just racism but Syrian/ME migration.


Guardian Editor: Shit, we can't do an entirely negative piece on what happened, CBC give us 6 inches of counter point..
CBC: Best I can do is caricature..
Guardian Editor..It will have to do.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 8, 2016)

Ballsy protest.
  Rather muddled message about why they were protesting


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 8, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Fuck the Daily Mail.



Fuck croquet.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 8, 2016)

The climate change and migrant/refugee debate has been going on for some time now hasn't it? It's been on my radar for a while and i've seen links to conferences etc...


----------



## mauvais (Sep 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> The climate change and migrant/refugee debate has been going on for some time now hasn't it? It's been on my radar for a while and i've seen links to conferences etc...


In what sense? That there are and increasingly will be climate migrants, sure, I think that's a given.

But it's an enormous stretch to claim that the majority of deaths in the Mediterranean relate to fleeing climate change - rather than war, political oppression and the rest, even as a secondary or further removed reason (e.g. that said wars were created by famine). It's nonsense.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> What role should white allies play in the Black Lives Matter UK movement? | Charlie Brinkhurst-Cuff and Kehinde Andrews



Interesting. I find myself agreeing more with the second writer though. I know that as a white person I'd feel pretty weird about taking a prominent role in a BLM action, particularly considering how young BLMUK is as an 'official' movement. I'm happy to do behind the scenes work and provide whatever support people ask of me but I'm not gonna turn up to organising meetings and I'm not gonna put myself in any position that makes me look like a public representative of a black-led movement.


----------



## Ho Chi Ming (Sep 8, 2016)

I wonder what polar bears, whose habitat is directly affected by climate change, think of this brouhaha. Do they identify as black or white or would they consider such a question as irrelevant identitarian lunacy.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 8, 2016)

mauvais said:


> In what sense? That there are and increasingly will be climate migrants, sure, I think that's a given.
> 
> *But it's an enormous stretch to claim that the majority of deaths in the Mediterranean relate to fleeing climate change* - rather than war, political oppression and the rest, even as a secondary or further removed reason (e.g. that said wars were created by famine). It's nonsense.



Are they claiming that? Or is it being highlighted as an additional issue to war/oppression/the rest?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 8, 2016)

Ho Chi Ming said:


> I wonder what polar bears, whose habitat is directly affected by climate change, think of this brouhaha. Do they identify as black or white or would they consider such a question as irrelevant identitarian lunacy.



That's nice dear.


----------



## Supine (Sep 8, 2016)

Ho Chi Ming said:


> I wonder what polar bears, whose habitat is directly affected by climate change, think of this brouhaha. Do they identify as black or white or would they consider such a question as irrelevant identitarian lunacy.



I think polar bears see through skin colour. They just see the meat underneath.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Are they claiming that? Or is it being highlighted as an additional issue to war/oppression/the rest?


These two adjacent tweets:


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 8, 2016)

mauvais said:


> These two adjacent tweets:




Yes, they are highlighting both issues, so what? The tweet about deaths in the med did not say because of climate change.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes, they are highlighting both issues, so what? The tweet about deaths in the med did not say because of climate change.


It's pretty clear to me. At the very least it inescapably connects the airport protest with deaths in the Med. Why?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 8, 2016)

mauvais said:


> It's pretty clear to me. At the very least it inescapably connects the airport protest with deaths in the Med. Why?



Because it's one of the issues they are highlighting given that refugees aren't able to simply book a plane ticket and fly in...forcing them to cross the med. That's obvious.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Because it's one of the issues they are highlighting given that refugees aren't able to simply book a plane ticket and fly in...forcing them to cross the med. That's obvious.


It really isn't - you might be the only person to have put that forward. They want _more _flights?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 8, 2016)

mauvais said:


> It really isn't - you might be the only person to have put that forward. They want _more _flights?




Maybe it isn't obvious to you because you don't know about or have never heard the 'let them fly' argument/slogan?

The refugee council is all over it, amongst others for example.

Let them fly: ask the Government to offer safe passage to Syrians

They want safe/safer passage.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Maybe it isn't obvious to you because you don't know about or have never heard the 'let them fly' argument/slogan?
> 
> The refugee council is all over it, amongst others for example.
> 
> Let them fly: ask the Government to offer safe passage to Syrians


I don't doubt that that's a thing, just like environmental migration is a thing.

I just _very _much doubt it has anything to do with either BLM UK's recent behaviour and/or the London City Airport protest.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 8, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I just _very _much doubt it has anything to do with either BLM UK's recent behaviour and/or the London City Airport protest.



You asked questions here, I have shared my understanding. 

If you _doubt _anything why not ask them directly? Very easy to do with social media platforms, as easy as posting questions and doubts here afterall.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> You asked questions here, I have shared my understanding.
> 
> If you _doubt _anything why not ask them directly? Very easy to do with social media platforms, as easy as posting questions and doubts here for example.


It's already been asked by a whole host of people.


----------



## gosub (Sep 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Maybe it isn't obvious to you because you don't know about or have never heard the 'let them fly' argument/slogan?
> 
> The refugee council is all over it, amongst others for example.
> 
> ...


by 2050?


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2016)

I think the person who wrote this is actually inside BLMUK and this is her making a statement explaining what happened at city airport and why. 
Didn't help me very much to be honest but here it is.  

Climate change is a racist crisis: that’s why Black Lives Matter closed an airport | Alexandra Wanjiku Kelbert 

"We are coming under fire for the fact that the protesters on the runway today were all white. That is not an accident. Black Lives Matter UK is and has always been black-led. It should not be surprising that black people could pull something like this off. And it should not be surprising that we would be able to find nine white people who believe that black lives matter. There is a need for white people to take responsibility in a society that privileges them through racism and anti-black racism.."


----------



## gosub (Sep 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> I think the person who wrote this is actually inside BLMUK and this is her making a statement explaining what happened at city airport and why.
> Didn't help me very much to be honest but here it is.
> 
> Climate change is a racist crisis: that’s why Black Lives Matter closed an airport | Alexandra Wanjiku Kelbert
> ...


We wanted to be part of something but Mark Duggan's death in 2011 was niether current nor in the same league as Jonathan Ferrell, John Crawford, Ezell Ford, Laquan McDonald, Akai Gurley, Tamir Rice, Eric Harris, Walter Scott, Freddie Gray, Sandra Bland, Samuel DuBose, Alton Sterling, and Philando Castile. So we are diluting and diversifying the brand -other race issues, such as deportations to Jamaica may have fitted the brand better  but not the political proclivities of those tasked with carrying out the protest.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 8, 2016)

bimble said:


> I think the person who wrote this is actually inside BLMUK and this is her making a statement explaining what happened at city airport and why.
> Didn't help me very much to be honest but here it is.
> 
> Climate change is a racist crisis: that’s why Black Lives Matter closed an airport | Alexandra Wanjiku Kelbert
> ...


And here it is again:


> We’re not saying that climate change affects only black people. However, it is communities in the global south that bear the brunt of the consequences of climate change, whether physical – floods, desertification, increased water scarcity and tornadoes – or political: conflict and racist borders. While a tiny elite can fly to and from London City airport, sometimes as a daily commute, this year alone 3,176 migrants have died or gone missing in the Mediterranean, trying to reach safety on the shores of Europe.









How many are environmental migrants?

It seems like a totally clueless, even offensive, narrative. I hope at least it was constructed after the fact - after the protest.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 8, 2016)

So do you think that none of those places listed have been effected by extreme droughts for example causing people to leave/move/relocate and none of the conflicts that have occured in any of those places have at least been in part caused by that movement of people/changing demographics/access to resources etc?


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Sep 8, 2016)

Hot weather leads to more aggro. If climate change is stopped, ISIS might calm down (or at least not get any worse).


----------



## gosub (Sep 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> So do you think that none of those places listed have been effected by extreme droughts for example causing people to leave/move/relocate and none of the conflicts that have occured in any of those places have at least been in part caused by that movement of people/changing demographics/access to resources etc?


Bangladesh is a long way down that graph


----------



## mauvais (Sep 8, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> So do you think none of those places listed have been effected by extreme droughts for example causing people to leave/move/relocate and none of the conflicts that have occured in any of those places have been in part caused by that movement of people/changing demographics/access to resources etc?


I think the war in Syria has bugger all to do with it. Ditto the rise of ISIS and ME geopolitical instability, ditto unrest across North Africa. On that subject there is _plenty_ to domestically protest though. On its own merits.

Amongst the list of source countries for migration, bearing in mind the route in question too, there are no doubt some where climate is a major factor in their problems, so I'm not universally ruling it out.

But the conflation of the two themes, without any evidence, as a justification is at best supreme idiocy, and less charitably, an offensive misappropriation of migrant deaths to champion a largely totally unrelated cause.

At the start of this thread I asked if BLM UK were actually a credible thing with a coherent narrative. You & others gave me a host of sensible answers as to why they _could_ be - background and context that justify a campaign. Yet this, the actual high profile manifestations of BLM UK thus far, appear to be a load of shit that bears no relation to that. I'm not saying that this story should be allowed to define the motives of black movements or even all of the BLM UK membership but so far it's a self-destructive shambles that does a great deal of damage to the cause. Both causes in fact. It's not even clear now in retrospect whether the Heathrow action wasn't entirely climate change motivated.

And I'm not even opposed to AGW protest, nor even one centred around commodity air travel. Just not a stupid one under this unrelated umbrella that demeans all political action.


----------



## bimble (Sep 8, 2016)

Demonstration just now coming out of barrier block on Brixton against the deportation flight yesterday .
It was a group called Movement For Justice'. 
Security Check Required


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 8, 2016)

Ho Chi Ming said:


> I wonder what polar bears, whose habitat is directly affected by climate change, think of this brouhaha. Do they identify as black or white or would they consider such a question as irrelevant identitarian lunacy.



Polar bears have black skin fwiw.


----------



## Ho Chi Ming (Sep 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Polar bears have black skin fwiw.



At last.


----------



## keybored (Sep 8, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Polar bears have black skin fwiw.


And transparent hair.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 11, 2016)

Smear piece on leading blm activist on front page of times today. Badge of honour proving they're doing something right.

I haven't read the piece but it looks desperate stuff


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Smear piece on leading blm activist on front page of times today. Badge of honour proving they're doing something right.
> 
> I haven't read the piece but it looks desperate stuff


Bound to happen, though, when you're trying to carve out a career for yourself.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> Bound to happen, though, when you're trying to carve out a career for yourself.


What career is that, yours as a troll?


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

You put yourself in the spotlight, you get attention, most of it unwanted.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> You put yourself in the spotlight, you get attention, most of it unwanted.



Is it deserved, do you think?


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

Doesn't really matter. It just is. Nobody can do anything about it.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> Doesn't really matter. It just is. Nobody can do anything about it.



Could you elaborate on why it doesn't matter?


----------



## Athos (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> Doesn't really matter. It just is. Nobody can do anything about it.



Bollocks. It doesn't just exist; it's made to happen, to serve some interests. Things can be done about it.  And of course it matters.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 11, 2016)

ska invita said:


> I haven't read the piece but it looks desperate stuff



 ?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 11, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> ?


jsut saw the headline whilst queuing up in the shop - it was a load of bollocks. hatchet job. i dont need to know the details. The Times are cunts


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

Athos said:


> Bollocks. It doesn't just exist; it's made to happen, to serve some interests. Things can be done about it.  And of course it matters.


Not in the great scheme of things. In a couple of years Black Lives Matter UK will be defunct. Because it's completely contrived. 

And of course it serves 'some interests'. Everything does.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> Not in the great scheme of things. In a couple of years Black Lives Matter UK will be defunct. Because it's completely contrived.
> 
> And of course it serves 'some interests'. Everything does.



What interests does it serve?


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

Those who don't like Black Lives Matter UK. And they're more powerful than Black Lives Matter UK.


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> ?


Paywalled and not got a Times account these days. Mail have nicked the story


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> Those who don't like Black Lives Matter UK. And they're more powerful than Black Lives Matter UK.



Do you like BLMUK, caller?


----------



## Ole (Sep 11, 2016)

gosub said:


> Paywalled and not got a Times account these days. Mail have nicked the story



Campaigner and journalist Wail Qasim, an activist with Black Lives Matter, said white people protesting had given black people a voice.

He told MailOnline: ‘This shows the sort of responsibility that white people should be taking. They should be willing to put bodies on the line for black rights.

‘You’ll notice that white activists have not been giving comment to the media. Really what’s happened is that black voices have been able to speak off the back of the actions of the white activists.

‘It should absolutely always be black leadership, not white leadership.’
​This is such a blatant fucking hustle. There's nothing new under the sun. I can't believe anyone who doesn't see it. The goal is reconfiguration of the elite. That's what these people mean by 'black power'.


----------



## Ole (Sep 11, 2016)

Wail Qasim | The Guardian

*Being a black, British, queer, non-binary Muslim isn't a contradiction*

Wail Qasim
Gender identity is a struggle. I’ve asked my friends to refer to me as ‘they’ instead of ‘he’​He's got all the lingo down pat. Guardian profile - check.

Ready for leadership.


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Do you like BLMUK, caller?


I think the clue might be in the bit where I called it contrived.


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> I think the clue might be in the bit where I called it contrived.



It didn't have to be, but the way they have taken it. I'd agree


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

gosub said:


> It didn't have to be, but the way they have taken it. I'd agree


What on earth did you expect?


----------



## Ole (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> What on earth did you expect?


I expected a less conspicuous hustle, I must say.


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> What on earth did you expect?



BLM-US to be slightly more discerning with its affiliates


----------



## Athos (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> Not in the great scheme of things. In a couple of years Black Lives Matter UK will be defunct. Because it's completely contrived.
> 
> And of course it serves 'some interests'. Everything does.



It's not 'just is' (as you claimed) though, is it?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 11, 2016)

​


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

Athos said:


> It's not 'just is' (as you claimed) though, is it?


Course it just is. As we're seeing.


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

gosub said:


> BLM-US to be slightly more discerning with its affiliates


This isn't the US-that's their problem.


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

In fact, I bet some of them are sorry that more black people don't get shot by the police here so that they could be more relevant.


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> This isn't the US-that's their problem.



no but the US page is uncritically adding the UK content to its feed.  Presumably a "no such thing as bad publicity" approach.  Think they are making a mistake, but could n't be further from my call.


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

gosub said:


> no but the US page is uncritically adding the UK content to its feed.  Presumably a "no such thing as bad publicity" approach.  Think they are making a mistake, but could n't be further from my call.


More fool them.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 11, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Smear piece on leading blm activist on front page of times today. Badge of honour proving they're doing something right.
> 
> I haven't read the piece but it looks desperate stuff



Why do you consider it to be a 'smear piece'?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> In fact, I bet some of them are sorry that more black people don't get shot by the police here so that they could be more relevant.


and thats you nailed letty. Off to troll the disabled/benefits threads again soon you miserable shit?


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> and thats you nailed letty. Off to troll the disabled/benefits threads again soon you miserable shit?


What disabled benefits thread?


----------



## Athos (Sep 11, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> Course it just is. As we're seeing.


No. Somebody makes it happen.


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 11, 2016)

Don't they just?


----------



## bi0boy (Sep 15, 2016)

The nine protesters appeared in court yesterday. Three of them have double-barrelled surnames which is quite good going, but a fourth has a tripped-barrelled name. 

Black Lives Matter activists admit trespass after City airport protest


----------



## mauvais (Sep 15, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> The nine protesters appeared in court yesterday. Three of them have double-barrelled surnames which is quite good going, but a fourth has a tripped-barrelled name.
> 
> Black Lives Matter activists admit trespass after City airport protest


Not in that article they don't, AFAICS.


----------



## bi0boy (Sep 15, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Not in that article they don't, AFAICS.



It's the Guardian 

Sama Baka, 27; Richard Collet-White, 23; Alex Etchart, 26; Deborah Francis-Grayson, 31; Sam Lund-Harket, 32; William Pettifer, 27; Ben Tippet, 24; Natalie Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes, 25; Esme Waldron, 23.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 15, 2016)

Niiiice


----------



## emanymton (Sep 15, 2016)

Natalie Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes 

Sounds like she would find the Queen a bit common.


----------



## JimW (Sep 15, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Natalie Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes
> 
> Sounds like she would find the Queen and bit common.


Name rings a bell, like it's Ralph Fiennes full name or some other celeb.


----------



## bi0boy (Sep 15, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Natalie Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes
> 
> Sounds like she would find the Queen and bit common.



Her lots-of-greats-grandaddy extended Windsor castle in in 1350s for Edward III, so they've always been the majesty's humble servants.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 15, 2016)

They have not just one but two Wikipedia pages.

Twisleton-Wykeham-Fiennes family - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Twisleton-Wykeham-Fiennes baronets - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So - _middle_ class, right?


----------



## Brainaddict (Sep 15, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Natalie Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes


That name does not fuck about does it? It has a job to do and it's not going to leave you in any doubt about what it wants to communicate. Brutal efficiency.

I hope to god she uses something simpler in everyday life.


----------



## Brainaddict (Sep 15, 2016)

I note btw that this thread has seen complaints both that police violence against black people in this country is not bad enough to base a movement on, and that expanding the BLM idea to things other than police violence is a tactically bad idea. Those points were probably made by different people (I haven't been following closely enough to check), but it does suggest to me that there will always be some angle to criticise other people's actions from, and that maybe we should cut people a bit of slack.


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> I note btw that this thread has seen complaints both that police violence against black people in this country is not bad enough to base a movement on, and that expanding the BLM idea to things other than police violence is a tactically bad idea. Those points were probably made by different people (I haven't been following closely enough to check), but it does suggest to me that there will always be some angle to criticise other people's actions from, and that maybe we should cut people a bit of slack.


People are also losing sight of the fact that the most important thing is that jobs are created out of this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> That name does not fuck about does it? It has a job to do and it's not going to leave you in any doubt about what it wants to communicate. Brutal efficiency.


doesn't communicate brutal efficiency to me, communicates a lack of decisiveness.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> I note btw that this thread has seen complaints both that police violence against black people in this country is not bad enough to base a movement on, and that expanding the BLM idea to things other than police violence is a tactically bad idea. Those points were probably made by different people (I haven't been following closely enough to check), but it does suggest to me that there will always be some angle to criticise other people's actions from, and that maybe we should cut people a bit of slack.


perhaps you should read the thread and then i might cut you a bit of slack.


----------



## D'wards (Sep 15, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lisa McKenzie made simillar remarks about the BLM folks blocking the road in Nottingham. She's since changed tack on this and started praising them (turns out they weren't posh students but ordinary working folk and Nottingham natives all) without actually retracting her earlier remarks or aknowledging that she fucked up.
> 
> Moral of the story, do your research before you make shitty insinuations about people and you run less risk of looking a twat later on


I'll just leave this here, as the kids say
Black Lives Matter activists admit trespass after City airport protest


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 15, 2016)

D'wards said:


> I'll just leave this here, as the kids say
> Black Lives Matter activists admit trespass after City airport protest



OK so they all sound like twats, but the point is you didn't know they were twats when you first stated that they were all twats.


----------



## D'wards (Sep 15, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> OK so they all sound like twats, but the point is you didn't know they were twats when you first stated that they were all twats.


It was that haircut tbh mate


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 15, 2016)

The bloke photographed in that article does have a fucking abysmal haircut I have to admit.


----------



## JimW (Sep 15, 2016)

You suspect there was an agonised discussion before they settled on bamboo for the tripod they chained themselves to


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2016)

JimW said:


> You suspect there was an agonised discussion before they settled on bamboo for the tripod they chained themselves to


organick bamboo i bet


----------



## JimW (Sep 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> organick bamboo i bet


Few airmiles on it you'd think or is it grown commercially in the UK? Coppiced hazel withies surely more sustainable.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> In fact, I bet some of them are sorry that more black people don't get shot by the police here so that they could be more relevant.



You seem to scorn people for showing concern (whether said concern is clumsily done or not, etc). Is there nothing that you feel outrage over?


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You seem to scorn people for showing concern (whether said concern is clumsily done or not, etc). Is there nothing that you feel outrage over?


People lining themselves up for nice careers. Maybe. A bit. But if I'm not reminded of it I tend not to think about it.

Changing the world as a paid occupation with a pension fund.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> People lining themselves up for nice careers. Maybe. A bit. But if I'm not reminded of it I tend not to think about it.
> 
> Changing the world as a paid occupation with a pension fund.



So, you're a cynic and have a world weary viewpoint on what motivates people and don't hold with compassion/concern/outrage?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2016)

JimW said:


> Few airmiles on it you'd think or is it grown commercially in the UK? Coppiced hazel withies surely more sustainable.


it looks like kashgar bamboo to me so it will have come from the back of beyond


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> So, you're a cynic and have a world weary viewpoint on what motivates people and don't hold with compassion/concern/outrage?


People can have all the compassion, concern and outrage they want as far as I'm concerned. Such things do still occasionally stir themselves in me.

But left activism used to be about your fellow working people, striving to overcome your bad working and living conditions, and persuading people that there's a better way to run society. These days when I encounter lefty types (or liberals who think they're lefties), I'm struck by the disproportionate numbers who work in trendy jobs, miles away from the dreaded reactionary unwashed, getting paid for supposedly making the world a better place.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> People can have all the compassion, concern and outrage they want as far as I'm concerned. Such things DO still occasionally stir themselves in me.
> 
> But left activism used to be about your fellow working people, striving to overcome your bad working and living conditions, and persuading people that there's a better way to run society. These days when I encounter lefty types (or liberals who think they're lefties), I'm struck by the disproportionate numbers who work in trendy jobs, miles away from the dreaded reactionary unwashed, getting paid for supposedly making the world a better place.



Out of curiosity; how would you persuade people that there's a better way to run society?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> People can have all the compassion, concern and outrage they want as far as I'm concerned. Such things DO still occasionally stir themselves in me.
> 
> But left activism used to be about your fellow working people, striving to overcome your bad working and living conditions, and persuading people that there's a better way to run society. These days when I encounter lefty types (or liberals who think they're lefties), I'm struck by the disproportionate numbers who work in trendy jobs, miles away from the dreaded reactionary unwashed, getting paid for supposedly making the world a better place.



Well there is a complex number of discursive issues here to unpack. What is meant by a 'lefty' type? The left is a very broad spectrum in which conflicting positions exist, not a single position. A 'liberal' is certainly likely to be different from a 'lefty'. I also don't recognise your description of a supposedly, 'reactionary unwashed, getting paid supposedly making the world a better place'.


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Out of curiosity; how would you persuade people that there's a better way to run society?


By causing an argument, insulting them and then fucking off and avoiding them forever.


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Well there is a complex number of discursive issues here to unpack. What is meant by a 'lefty' type? The left is a very broad spectrum in which conflicting positions exist, not a single position. A 'liberal' is certainly likely to be different from a 'lefty'. I also don't recognise your description of a supposedly, 'reactionary unwashed, getting paid supposedly making the world a better place'.


I said that it was those who get themselves paid for supposedly making the world a better place who are usually miles away from the supposedly reactionary unwashed.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> By causing an argument, insulting them and then fucking off and avoiding them forever.



Is that why you've come back to urban?


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Is that why you've come back to urban?



I haven't told anybody to fuck off, have I?(Even if that's what you want me to do.)  And aren't I still here?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> I haven't told anybody to fuck off, have I?(Even if that's what you want me to do.)  And aren't I still here?



I don't want you to fuck off. I'm just curious why you are so dismissive of people. Almost from your first posts. Have you posted on urban under a different moniker?


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I don't want you to fuck off. I'm just curious why you are so dismissive of people. Almost from your first posts. Have you posted on urban under a different moniker?


Yes, I get it-I've been dismissive towards one or two 'causes' that you purport to hold dear. Somebody somewhere is always gonna do it.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> Yes, I get it-I've been dismissive towards one or two 'causes' that you purport to hold dear. Somebody somewhere is always gonna do it.



Being LGBT is not a cause. You'd do well to remember that.


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Being LGBT is not a cause. You'd do well to remember that.


OK then, I'll try to do just that. Even if I haven't been dismissive towards 'LGBT.'


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 15, 2016)

Sometimes you wish you could like a single post x10. See above (krtek a houby's post).


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay - I was referring to liking krtek's post, specifically the statement: 'Being LGBT is not a cause. You'd do well to remember that'.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> OK then, I'll try to do just that. Even if I haven't been dismissive towards 'LGBT.'



Must have been another sneery and dismissive Jurrihahay posting how abuse is just part of life's rich tapestry, then.


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Jurrihahay - I was referring to liking krtek's post, specifically the statement: 'Being LGBT is not a cause. You'd do well to remember that'.


Sorry, don't know what you're on about.


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Must have been another sneery and dismissive Jurrihahay posting how abuse is just part of life's rich tapestry, then.



Think I explained days ago that I didn't say that abuse was part of life's tapestry, discrimination neither.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 15, 2016)

Police may face charges over student left in vegetative state



> ...After claiming an Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) investigation had “ground to a halt”, Mr Cole’s family began campaigning to “get to the truth”, saying they had been inspired by the Black Lives Matter movement which started in response to allegations of excessive force by racist police in the US.
> 
> The IPCC has now referred five Bedfordshire Police officers who attended the nightclub incident to the Crown Prosecution Service....


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2016)

Sorry, don't know what you're on about.


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Sorry, don't know what you're on about.


I forgive you.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> I forgive you.



So, what was your previous username here on urban?


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> So, what was your previous username here on urban?


Can't remember. Jerbabylon or something?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> Can't remember. Jerbabylon or something?



Nope. That was my old username. What brought you back? Did you feel you didn't have enough time to get your message across?


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

Do you think you've derailed the thread enough yet?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> Do you think you've derailed the thread enough yet?



What's up? Feeling some outrage?


----------



## Jurrihahay (Sep 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> What's up? Feeling some outrage?


No, just admiration for your gift for focusing on what's important, and your ceaseless pursuit of justice.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> No, just admiration for your gift for focusing on what's important, and your ceaseless pursuit of justice.



Well, thanks for that. I'm sure we can all breathe a sigh of relief that you've returned to put us on the right track.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2016)

Jurrihahay said:


> No, just admiration for your gift for focusing on what's important, and your ceaseless pursuit of justice.


we're on the one road sharing the one load
we're on the road to god knows where
we're on the one road it may be the wrong road
but we're together now, who cares


----------



## pengaleng (Sep 15, 2016)

top thread.


----------



## dylanredefined (Sep 15, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> The nine protesters appeared in court yesterday. Three of them have double-barrelled surnames which is quite good going, but a fourth has a tripped-barrelled name.
> 
> Black Lives Matter activists admit trespass after City airport protest



British ships have rescued over 24,000 migrants
  Some people raise awareness ,some people do something about it.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 15, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> British ships have rescued over 24,000 migrants
> Some people raise awareness ,some people do something about it.


Really?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Sep 15, 2016)

pengaleng said:


> top thread.



I see a pattern emerging on bunfighty threads recently.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 15, 2016)

JimW said:


> Few airmiles on it you'd think or is it grown commercially in the UK? Coppiced hazel withies surely more sustainable.



Hazel has excellent tensile strength but fuck all rigidity.


----------



## JimW (Sep 15, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Hazel has excellent tensile strength but fuck all rigidity.


They could have woven something, work for a local craftsperson.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> British ships have rescued over 24,000 migrants
> Some people raise awareness ,some people do something about it.


Then what?


----------



## Celyn (Sep 15, 2016)

JimW said:


> Few airmiles on it you'd think or is it grown commercially in the UK? Coppiced hazel withies surely more sustainable.


Ah, apparently it can be grown in the UK. There was some muttering about this with regard to Edinburgh Zoo's completely-refusing-to-breed pair of pandas.  Panda bamboo to be grown at Edinburgh Zoo - BBC News


----------



## likesfish (Sep 16, 2016)

Their not dead which is a start


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 18, 2016)

Here's an excellent piece by Adolph Reed Jr that pulls together a lot of the more substantial criticisms touched on on this thread - it does focus on the US but still has direct relevance:

How Racial Disparity Does Not Help Make Sense of Patterns of Police Violence



> Some readers will know that I’ve contended that, despite its proponents’ assertions, antiracism is not a different sort of egalitarian alternative to a class politics but is a class politics itself: the politics of a strain of the professional-managerial class whose worldview and material interests are rooted within a political economy of race and ascriptive identity-group relations. Moreover, although it often comes with a garnish of disparaging but empty references to neoliberalism as a generic sign of bad things, antiracist politics is in fact the left wing of neoliberalism in that its sole metric of social justice is opposition to disparity in the distribution of goods and bads in the society, an ideal that naturalizes the outcomes of capitalist market forces so long as they are equitable along racial (and other identitarian) lines.



...



> My point is not in any way to make light of the gravity of the injustice or to diminish outrage about police violence. (I realize, however, that some will impute that intention to me; for them and all who would take the charge seriously, see note 1 below.) However, noting a decline—or substantial change in either direction for that matter—in the rate of police killings does underscore the inadequacy of reified, transhistorical abstractions like “racism” or “white supremacy” for making sense of the nature and sources of police abuse of black Americans. Racism and white supremacy don’t really explain how anything happens. They’re at best shorthand characterizations of more complex, or at least discrete, actions taken by people in social contexts; at worst, and, alas, more often in our political moment, they’re invoked as alternatives to explanation. In that sense they function, like the Nation of Islam’s Yacub story, as a devil theory: racism and white supremacy are represented as capable of making things happen in the world independently, i.e. magically. This is the fantasy expressed in formulations like racism is America’s “national disease” or “Original Sin”—which, incidentally, are elements of the liberal race relations ideology that took shape in postwar American political discourse precisely as articulations of a notion of racial equality that was separated from political economy and anchored in psychology and individualist notions of prejudice and intolerance.8



...



> It should be clear by now that the focus on racial disparity accepts the premise of neoliberal social justice that the problem of inequality is not its magnitude or intensity in general but whether or not it is distributed in a racially equitable way. To the extent that that is the animating principle of a left politics, it is a politics that lies entirely within neoliberalism’s logi


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 18, 2016)

dylanredefined said:


> British ships have rescued over 24,000 migrants
> Some people raise awareness ,some people do something about it.



What do you do?


----------



## emanymton (Sep 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Here's an excellent piece by Adolph Reed Jr that pulls together a lot of the more substantial criticisms touched on on this thread - it does focus on the US but still has direct relevance:
> 
> How Racial Disparity Does Not Help Make Sense of Patterns of Police Violence
> 
> ...


Anyone else finding the link doesn't work?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 18, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Anyone else finding the link doesn't work?


How's this one?


----------



## emanymton (Sep 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> How's this one?


That works, thanks.


----------



## dylanredefined (Sep 18, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> What do you do?



As little as possible most days


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Here's an excellent piece by Adolph Reed Jr that pulls together a lot of the more substantial criticisms touched on on this thread - it does focus on the US but still has direct relevance:
> 
> How Racial Disparity Does Not Help Make Sense of Patterns of Police Violence
> 
> ...


Sanity seeps back in...


----------



## sihhi (Sep 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Here's an excellent piece by Adolph Reed Jr that pulls together a lot of the more substantial criticisms touched on on this thread - it does focus on the US but still has direct relevance:
> 
> How Racial Disparity Does Not Help Make Sense of Patterns of Police Violence



It is a very good article

missing 0 here should be $100,000
_
Zaid Jilani found, for example, that ninety-five percent of police killings occurred in neighborhoods with median family income of less than $100,00 and that the median family income in neighborhoods where police killed was $52,907_


----------



## Athos (Sep 21, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Here's an excellent piece by Adolph Reed Jr that pulls together a lot of the more substantial criticisms touched on on this thread - it does focus on the US but still has direct relevance:
> 
> How Racial Disparity Does Not Help Make Sense of Patterns of Police Violence
> 
> ...



This is a very interesting piece, but, to the extent that it relies upon the research by Jilani, I remain sceptical. The latter has some pretty significant methodological weaknesses, and arguably flawed reasoning (paging kabbes). For instance, he seems to overlook the fact that 21% of households having an income greater than $100,000 is very different from 21% of neighborhoods having a median household income of more than that figure. I would be interested in seeing some data that goes to the latter.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2016)

Anyone remember the title of the thread about the anti police posters? 

This was seen in Holloway apparently.


----------



## Athos (Oct 26, 2016)

*Quality anti-racism/ ACAB poster appears in Manor House?*


----------



## Celyn (Oct 26, 2016)

What's the "Fam" bit about? Short for "family"?  I feel like one of those ancient cartoon judges out of touch with modern lingo.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2016)

Celyn said:


> What's the "Fam" bit about? Short for "family"?  I feel like one of those ancient cartoon judges out of touch with modern lingo.



Yes, meaning family. Fam meaning close friends/as good as or better than actual family.


----------



## Celyn (Oct 26, 2016)

Thank you!  It might also be used around here for all I know, but I have only encountered it on Urban75. I haz learned something today!    Now I deserve a biscuit or something (not to derail from the serious nature of the subject at hand, of course).


----------



## bemused (Oct 26, 2016)

The 1500 number is a tad disingenuous.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2016)

bemused said:


> The 1500 number is a tad disingenuous.



Just fuck off if all your interest or comment is.


----------



## bemused (Oct 26, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Just fuck off if all your interest or comment is.


Classic


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2016)

bemused said:


> Classic



Exactly, I have no more frustration, nor tears, not intellectual energy to educate the fucking STUPID. I am choosing to spend myself in much more valuable ways. I am done with that responsibility. I am exhausted. Congratulations on your privilege and ignorance. What else can I tell you?


----------



## bemused (Oct 26, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Exactly, I have no more frustration, nor tears, not intellectual energy to educate the fucking STUPID. I am choosing to spend myself in much more valuable ways. I am done with that responsibility. I am exhausted. Congratulations on your privilege and ignorance. What else can I tell you?



Maybe why you class people who die in cars crashes as killed by the police?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2016)

bemused said:


> Maybe why you class people who die in cars crashes as killed by the police?



The universe just yawned at you. You are lucky because if it were up to me I wouldn't have mustered such a personal response.


----------



## bemused (Oct 26, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> The universe just yawned at you. You are lucky because if it were up to me I wouldn't have mustered such a personal response.



I note you have no actual answer.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 27, 2016)

I used to think that political campaigning was about bringing people round to your way of thinking - to convince people of a particular point of view. It strikes me that these days it's more about appearing political as some sort of fashion statement. If that wasn't the case, then surely there would be more recognition of the need to use facts and figures in an honest way.

I mean why would anyone risk damaging their own cause by making misleading claims about statistics that are so easily checkable in the age of Google? It makes no sense.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I used to think that political campaigning was about bringing people round to your way of thinking - to convince people of a particular point of view. It strikes me that these days it's more about appearing political as some sort of fashion statement. If that wasn't the case, then surely there would be more recognition of the need to use facts and figures in an honest way.
> 
> I mean why would anyone risk damaging their own cause by making misleading claims about statistics that are so easily checkable in the age of Google? It makes no sense.


The ability to use Google to retrieve information effectively is rarer than you might think and almost unheard of among politicians


----------



## Athos (Oct 27, 2016)

bemused said:


> Maybe why you class people who die in cars crashes as killed by the police?


People who die in the course of police pursuits would not have died (then) if those pursuits hadn't happened, such that the action of the police had been a 'but for' cause of those deaths. Whilst that's not necessarily the same thing as the police being culpable for those deaths, it's not inaccurate to describe those people as having been killed by police. Or to question the lack of accountability for them.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 31, 2016)

Athos said:


> People who die in the course of police pursuits would not have died (then) if those pursuits hadn't happened, such that the action of the police had been a 'but for' cause of those deaths.


This isn't inherently true. It's probably so in the majority of cases.


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2016)

mauvais said:


> This isn't inherently true. It's probably so in the majority of cases.


The overwhelming majority.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 31, 2016)

Athos said:


> The overwhelming majority.


How would you evidence this?

How many pursuits were only initiated _after_ police involvement, rather than the police involvement being initiated by high speed dangerous driving on the part of the pursued?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Athos said:


> The overwhelming majority.



You only get chased if you decide to run/drive away.


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2016)

mauvais said:


> How would you evidence this?
> 
> How many pursuits were only initiated _after_ police involvement, rather than the police involvement being initiated by high speed dangerous driving on the part of the pursued?



By definition, they're only pursuits after police become involved.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 31, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Anyone remember the title of the thread about the anti police posters?
> 
> This was seen in Holloway apparently.


Yeah it was at my bus stop in holloway last week


----------



## mauvais (Oct 31, 2016)

Athos said:


> By definition, they're only pursuits after police become involved.


Not the question though is it?

If I'm already driving at 90mph through a residential street, and I happen to go past a police car that then gives chase, and I crash and die, it's questionable as to whether it made any difference.

If I'm driving slowly and the police attempt to pull me over, and I speed off, that's a bit more cause-and-effect.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Not the question though is it?
> 
> If I'm already driving at 90mph through a residential street, and I happen to go past a police car that then gives chase, and I crash and die, it's questionable as to whether it made any difference.
> 
> If I'm driving slowly and the police attempt to pull me over, and I speed off, that's a bit more cause-and-effect.



Nevertheless, someone that decides to put the public at risk by speeding off like that only brings it upon themselves, surely?


----------



## mauvais (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Nevertheless, someone that decides to put the public at risk by speeding off like that only brings it upon themselves, surely?


It's not an unreasonable argument. The far greater problem is not so much what happens to them but who else they kill whilst being pursued, and whether that's foreseeable in the context or an acceptable risk of policing.

In theory, although I don't know how well it works in practice, this is why there's a risk threshold at which pursuit is abandoned.


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2016)

The number on the poster includes two kinds of car related deaths - pursuit and road traffic incidents. I don't know how road traffic incidents are defined.
Deaths in police custody | INQUEST


----------



## mauvais (Oct 31, 2016)

bimble said:


> The number on the poster includes two kinds of car related deaths - pursuit and road traffic incidents. I don't know how road traffic incidents are defined.
> Deaths in police custody | INQUEST


e.g. hit by a police car responding to an emergency.

Road Traffic Incidents | Independent Police Complaints Commission

PDF report linked to from there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> You only get chased if you decide to run/drive away.


Yeh it's your own fault if it happens to you.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh it's your own fault if it happens to you.



Yeah, pretty much.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

There seems to be confusion on this thread about police pursuits, what they entail and how they are authorised. perhaps you should Google Henry Hicks and see what happened in hiscase.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Yeah, pretty much.


Perhaps you could share your working.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Perhaps you could share your working.



If the police want to pull you over, do it. Don't be a dick and speed off like you're in an action movie. People make choices. Sometimes those choices result in them crashing their car.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> If the police want to pull you over, do it. Don't be a dick and speed off like your in an action movie. People make choices. Sometimes those choices result in them crashing their car.


Have you ever been followed in any way by the police?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Have you ever been followed in any way by the police?



No.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

bimble said:


> The number on the poster includes two kinds of car related deaths - pursuit and road traffic incidents. I don't know how road traffic incidents are defined.
> Deaths in police custody | INQUEST



Here it is graphed up.


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I mean why would anyone risk damaging their own cause by making misleading claims about statistics that are so easily checkable in the age of Google? It makes no sense.


What you mean like the leave the EU campaign bus with its 35 million a week thing ?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

bimble said:


> What you mean like the leave the EU campaign bus with its 35 million a week thing ?



350 million, but yes like that. Unless coming across like a bunch of two-bit Goves and Johnsons is considered a good look now. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the long term credibility of any campaign relies on it being thorough and honest.


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Not the question though is it?
> 
> If I'm already driving at 90mph through a residential street, and I happen to go past a police car that then gives chase, and I crash and die, it's questionable as to whether it made any difference.
> 
> If I'm driving slowly and the police attempt to pull me over, and I speed off, that's a bit more cause-and-effect.



True. But, if you read the accounts of these incidents, one theme that emerges is the extent to which dangerous driving is precipitated by pursuit (rather than pursuit being a response to it). This has been recognised by police all over the world, such that, increasingly, the policy is not to pursue. But, not only has this not gone far enough (in my opinion), but, frequently, such policies are not followed.

I don't think the fact that police pursuits cause fatalities could seriously be denied .


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> No.


ok. are you or have you ever been a police officer or member of police staff?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> ok. are you or have you ever been a police officer or member of police staff?



Nope.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Nope.


right. so, on information from what sources are you basing your opinion?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> right. so, on information from what sources are you basing your opinion?



There are lots of things I've never done. I've never stolen an umbrella, but I know if I did it would be my own fault if I got nicked. I've never jumped off a cliff into the sea, but I know it would be my own fault if I broke my legs on rocks. I've never tried to make a getaway from the police, but I know it would be my own fault if I crashed in the course of doing so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I've never tried to make a getaway from the police, but I know it would be my own fault if I crashed in the course of doing so.


yes. but you don't *know* it, it is simply an opinion. and what's more it is an opinion based on nothing more than invention.

i ask again, on what *sources* do you base your opinion?


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> There are lots of things I've never done. I've never stolen an umbrella, but I know if I did it would be my own fault if I got nicked. I've never jumped off a cliff into the sea, but I know it would be my own fault if I broke my legs on rocks. I've never tried to make a getaway from the police, but I know it would be my own fault if I crashed in the course of doing so.



Where would the fault rest if, say, you were driving normally but you killed someone else because you sped off when the police chased you (a predictable reaction)?  What if they only wanted to speak to you about a rear break light being dim, and continued the chase at both speed through a residential area?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. but you don't *know* it, it is simply an opinion. and what's more it is an opinion based on nothing more than invention.
> 
> i ask again, on what *sources* do you base your opinion?



It's pretty simple, you know. I have free will. But I reckon you're just trolling now.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Athos said:


> Where would the fault rest if, say, you were driving normally but you killed someone else because you sped off when the police chased you (a predictable reaction)?  What if they only wanted to speak to you about a rear break light being dim, and continued the chase at both speed through a residential area?



The fault would lie with me. How could it not? I _chose _to speed off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's pretty simple, you know. I have free will. But I reckon you're just trolling now.


by no means, i have been trying to get to the bottom of the foundations of your opinion. you see, if your opinion was based on (for example) incidents reported in newspapers, a knowledge of police procedure, or a knowledge of what it was like to be followed i might have some respect for your opinion. it might be worth taking on board. but your opinion is based solely on 'oh if you do x then y is your fault', which doesn't really cut the mustard.

it is based on a number of assumptions, and unsafe assumptions at that - for example, the police do things safely; the police are infallible in their use of pursuits; the police have a procedure which allows them to end pursuits safely. 

pisspoor.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> The fault would lie with me. How could it not? I _chose _to speed off.


so your view is that in each and every situation it is the fault of the pursued.

have you examined the death of henry hicks?

have you heard of stephen waldorf?

have you heard of sheena mcdonald?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> if your opinion was based on (for example) incidents reported in newspapers



I don't need to read a newspaper to know what my own principles and morals are.



> a knowledge of police procedure



Whatever the police procedures are, they too do not impact on my principles are morals. My own choices about the appropriate behaviour to engage in.



> or a knowledge of what it was like to be followed



This I can grant you. It may be the case that my brain would just flip out on hearing a siren and seeing blue lights, therefore causing me to flee in a panic. Fortunately I am neither (a) a criminal who would have reason to run, or (b) a bag of nerves with no control of my own actions. I would suggest that anyone prone to such panicky behaviour shouldn't be on the road in the first place.



> it is based on a number of assumptions, and unsafe assumptions at that - for example, the police do things safely;



Not at all. Being human, the police will do all sorts of unsafe things. All the more reason to not get into a high speed chase with them.



> the police are infallible in their use of pursuits; the police have a procedure which allows them to end pursuits safely.



I wouldn't be in a pursuit with them. That's the point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I don't need to read a newspaper to know what my own principles and morals are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes. but the thing is you can't base an opinion on police pursuits on the foundation of hifalutin principles and morals without your opinion running into trouble when it runs into facts. 1) it is not always the fault of the person being pursued that they are pursued - see, for example, stephen waldorf; 2) the police even when they do pursue people don't always do it right - see, for example, the death of henry hicks, when some police officers decided to pursue him against their policies; 3) the police themselves pose a great threat to the public, as the case of sheena mcdonald indicates.

you wouldn't be in a pursuit with them? i regret you do not have that option.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> so your view is that in each and every situation it is the fault of the pursued.
> have you examined the death of henry hicks?



According to the guardian he was a drug dealer who legged it from the police in full knowledge they were chasing him. So yes, his own fault.



> have you heard of stephen waldorf?


According to wikipedia he was mistakenly shot by police who thought he was someone else. No pursuit, no attempt to escape. Just a sad story all round.



> have you heard of sheena mcdonald?



Member of the public hit by a police van. She wasn't being chased, she hadn't tried to do a runner. Of course it wasn't her fault.

How on earth you think any of these examples are relevent to this conversation is beyond me.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. but the thing is you can't base an opinion on police pursuits on the foundation of hifalutin principles and morals without your opinion running into trouble when it runs into facts. 1) it is not always the fault of the person being pursued that they are pursued - see, for example, stephen waldorf; 2) the police even when they do pursue people don't always do it right - see, for example, the death of henry hicks, when some police officers decided to pursue him against their policies; 3) the police themselves pose a great threat to the public, as the case of sheena mcdonald indicates.
> 
> you wouldn't be in a pursuit with them? i regret you do not have that option.



Of course you have that option. If you see blue lights, pull over at the nearest safe place. I can't even believe people would think otherwise. This really is that simple.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Of course you have that option. If you see blue lights, pull over at the nearest safe place. I can't even believe people would think otherwise. This really is that simple.


Oh yes  worked for Mark Duggan


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> According to the guardian he was a drug dealer who legged it from the police in full knowledge they were chasing him. So yes, his own fault.


chasing him in contravention of their own policies





> According to wikipedia he was mistakenly shot by police who thought he was someone else. No pursuit, no attempt to escape. Just a sad story all round.


So how did they catch up to him, are you seriously suggesting there was *no* pursuit?





> Member of the public hit by a police van. She wasn't being chased, she hadn't tried to do a runner. Of course it wasn't her fault.


Nice strawman. I didn't say it was her fault, I used that as an example of the danger the police themselves pose





> How on earth you think any of these examples are relevent to this conversation is beyond me.


Er because they involve police pursuits.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh yes  worked for Mark Duggan



Live by the gun, die by the gun.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> chasing him in contravention of their own policiesSo how did they catch up to him, are you seriously suggesting there was *no* pursuit?Nice strawman. I didn't say it was her fault, I used that as an example of the danger the police themselves poseEr because they involve police pursuits.



Fuck me pickman's you're being thick today. People make choices. One of them is to drive in a dangerous manner, risking the lives of yourself and others. If you do that you're a cunt. End of.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Live by the gun, die by the gun.



What fucking gun? The one found an improbable distance from Duggan's body?
The one he was *alleged* to have been carrying?


----------



## A380 (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh yes  worked for Mark Duggan


I thought one of the criticisms was the hard stop.  No blue lights used, instead physically blocking the taxi and so raising the issue that he thought it was another drug gang not the police?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> What fucking gun? The one found an improbable distance from Duggan's body?
> The one he was *alleged* to have been carrying?



Yeah, just a coincidence. He was a nice fella really, I'm sure.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Fuck me pickman's you're being thick today. People make choices. One of them is to drive in a dangerous manner, risking the lives of yourself and others. If you do that you're a cunt. End of.


Yeh and death's what they deserve

The police decision to pursue is more often than not what turns a dangerous situation into a fatal one. the police make the choices which reduce the chances of a reasonable outcome for everyone. but you, with your supreme confidence in the police refuse to accept that they are fallible, that they do flout their own policies and instead declare them right in pretty much each and every case. 

Newsflash: life isn't a series of binary choices, do *this* and it's good do *that* and it's bad. it's more complex than that. the police decision to pursue in cars is utterly bizarre as it greatly increases the risk of death: why not use helicopters?

There are no morals or principles in your case beyond the police are right to chase people to their deaths.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

A380 said:


> I thought one of the criticisms was the hard stop.  No blue lights used, instead physically blocking the taxi and so raising the issue that he thought it was another drug gang not the police?


Of course we will never know what he thought


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Yeah, just a coincidence. He was a nice fella really, I'm sure.



It's not about whether Duggan was a nice guy or an utter shitcunt, it was about the strong possibility that he was murdered by armed coppers who then justified killing him by claiming their lives were threatened - by a gun that couldn't have been in Duggan's hand. 

That's the thing - this gun, supposedly lent to him by an *enemy* of his, where it was found was in a place that it would have been physically-impossible for Duggan to chuck it, so how did it get there?

Perhaps it was a magic gun with the power to teleport itself?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

I'm pretty fed up of people making excuses for predatory cunts like Duggan and this Hicks fella. They fuck up this world for lots of people. They aren't victims,they are victimisers. Maybe you don't have to see the effects of the actions of people like them, Pickman's. Well good for you.

Anyway, I can't be arsed with this any more.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2016)

the thing with that one is they'd have totally got away with it had not incompetence cause one copper to shoot the other in the radio. Was reading about how the 'mere gook rule' got finessed in Viet Nam. Keep enemy weapons, shoot a civvy who doesn't have a weapon- well now he does, from your stash. That duerte cock and his death squads are likely doing the same with drugs. Shoot the man you want, drop the drugs on him and the kill is legit. You have to wonder...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm pretty fed up of people making excuses for predatory cunts like Duggan and this Hicks fella. They fuck up this world for lots of people. They aren't victims,they are victimisers. Maybe you don't have to see the effects of the actions of people like them, Pickman's. Well good for you.
> 
> Anyway, I can't be arsed with this any more.


Yeh. so let's leave it there, before you congratulate the cops on taking out the trash.

not surprised you've gone all brave sir robin, not when there are things like this which problematise your comfortable 'the police always right' line.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 31, 2016)

Interesting piece from online beeb

That black British feeling: Does the UK need Black Lives Matter?


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> The fault would lie with me. How could it not? I _chose _to speed off.



And the police chose to chase. You think they are no easy responsible for what happened? Even if the outcome would have been different but for their actions?


----------



## mauvais (Oct 31, 2016)

Athos said:


> And the police chose to chase. You think they are no easy responsible for what happened? Even if the outcome would have been different but for their actions?


This only makes sense if talking about the responsibility as regards innocent third parties. This might include passengers in the pursued vehicle, of course.

But as far as the person refusing to stop is concerned, it's a strange logical contortion that's required to absolve them of even a fraction of responsibility.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

mauvais said:


> This only makes sense if talking about the responsibility as regards innocent third parties. This might include passengers in the pursued vehicle, of course.
> 
> But as far as the person refusing to stop is concerned, it's a strange logical contortion that's required to absolve them of even a fraction of responsibility.


you've not looked at the case of henry hicks, have you, the teenager ItWillNeverWork is so glad to see dead? he wasn't being chased for speeding or dangerous driving...


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2016)

mauvais said:


> This only makes sense if talking about the responsibility as regards innocent third parties. This might include passengers in the pursued vehicle, of course.
> 
> But as far as the person refusing to stop is concerned, it's a strange logical contortion that's required to absolve them of even a fraction of responsibility.



I'm not saying they aren't *also* to blame, but that they're not the *only* people responsible.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you've not looked at the case of henry hicks, have you, the teenager ItWillNeverWork is glad to see dead? he wasn't being chased for speeding or dangerous driving...



No, he was being chased after speeding off when police spotted him dealing drugs.



> The 18-year-old had been riding his moped when he was spotted by officers in two unmarked police cars who, thinking his behaviour was suspicious, switched on their sirens and drove after him in an attempt to pull him over. After a short high-speed chase through traffic, the teenager lost control of the bike a few streets away from his Islington family home and suffered severe head injuries from which he never recovered consciousness. [...]
> 
> When Hicks’s bloodied clothes were searched after he died, investigators found seven bags of skunk cannabis worth between £70 and £140, £230 in cash and three mobile phones, bearing scores of text messages saying he had skunk available – referred to as “banging lemon”. [...]
> 
> The moped the young man was driving, though registered to his address, was found to be stolen; it was also what the police called a “ringer”, having had its engine replaced to make it a much more powerful vehicle than it appeared. When he died, Hicks was on bail pending a trial for affray.



Not glad to see him dead. Just willing to accept he was the architect of his own demise.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 31, 2016)

Athos said:


> I'm not saying they aren't *also* to blame, but that they're not the *only* people responsible.


Through a sort of tunnel vision view, in that both a disastrous outcome is foreseeable and the police may have a level of power & opportunity sufficient to _not _engage, I could perhaps agree. Unfortunately that's a construct, and there are foreseeable negative outcomes from not pursuing. Perhaps often not as many, you will argue. I don't know.

The trouble with this argument is that it doesn't neatly stop at 'no pursuit'. Eventually you get rid of all attempted stops, because some of them lead to the target fleeing, and some of those lead to serious accidents. That too is foreseeable.

What level of vehicle-related crime and vehicle-borne criminals are you willing to let go because of the risks associated?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> No, he was being chased after speeding off when police spotted him dealing drugs.
> 
> 
> 
> Not glad to see him dead. Just willing to accept he was the architect of his own demise.


jesus will you ever fucking give over? ONCE AGAIN you say "he was the architect of his own demise": but ONCE AGAIN you don't acknowledge a) the pursuit broke met policy; b) the ipcc said the four cops chasing him should face gross misconduct proceedings?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> jesus will you ever fucking give over? ONCE AGAIN you say "he was the architect of his own demise": but ONCE AGAIN you don't acknowledge a) the pursuit broke met policy; b) the ipcc said the four cops chasing him should face gross misconduct proceedings?



I don't give a shit what met policy is. It's common bloody sense that if you go around doing things that are dangerous to your own safety, you run the risk of getting hurt. That's life. Not everything is someone else's fault. 'Own your own shit' as the Americans say.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I don't give a shit what met policy is. It's common bloody sense that if you go around doing things that are dangerous to your own safety, you run the risk of getting hurt. That's life. Not everything is someone else's fault. 'Own your own shit' as the Americans say.


i never previously had you down as a cop lickspittle, but i see now i was mistaken.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 31, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i never previously had you down as a cop lickspittle, but i see now i was mistaken.



You break my heart.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> You break my heart.


you've said 'the status quo's fine and dandy and if someone gets hurt the cops are in no wise to blame'. poor blair peach, the author of his own misfortune. poor kevin gately, the author of his own misfortune. poor diarmuid o'neill, the author of his own misfortune.


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## Athos (Oct 31, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Through a sort of tunnel vision view, in that both a disastrous outcome is foreseeable and the police may have a level of power & opportunity sufficient to _not _engage, I could perhaps agree. Unfortunately that's a construct, and there are foreseeable negative outcomes from not pursuing. Perhaps often not as many, you will argue. I don't know.
> 
> The trouble with this argument is that it doesn't neatly stop at 'no pursuit'. Eventually you get rid of all attempted stops, because some of them lead to the target fleeing, and some of those lead to serious accidents. That too is foreseeable.
> 
> What level of vehicle-related crime and vehicle-borne criminals are you willing to let go because of the risks associated?



From what I've seen of the evidence, I believe the line is drawn in the wrong place i.e. that fewer pursuits would mean fewer net fatalities.


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## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2016)

Can we have the other - the more contextually aware - ItWillNeverWork back please. Not this tough-minded idiot.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Can we have the other - the more contextually aware - ItWillNeverWork back please. Not this tough-minded idiot.


i think we've just seen behind the mask.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 31, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm pretty fed up of people making excuses for predatory cunts like Duggan and this Hicks fella. They fuck up this world for lots of people. They aren't victims,they are victimisers. Maybe you don't have to see the effects of the actions of people like them, Pickman's. Well good for you.
> 
> Anyway, I can't be arsed with this any more.



I live among "people like them". I see the results of their shit all the time. They're still people, and they still deserve the same protections we all do. We all have a right to expect not to be murdered by corrupt, weapon-planting coppers, whether we're hoolies, dealers, or whatever. Anyone who's in favour of a two-tiered system of law is fucked in the head.


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## bimble (Nov 1, 2016)

Sean Rigg death: custody sergeant lied at inquest, court hears


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## BigTom (Nov 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> Sean Rigg death: custody sergeant lied at inquest, court hears



Not the only death in custody in court atm either, lying scum the lot of them, these are also up for perjury - Police officers face Kingsley Burrell perjury charges - BBC News


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## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2016)

BigTom said:


> Not the only death in custody in court atm either, lying scum the lot of them, these are also up for perjury - Police officers face Kingsley Burrell perjury charges - BBC News


Yeh. the very people ItWillNeverWork believes are right and proper men and women to harry others to their deaths.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2016)

Clash roadie Don Lorenzo arrest: Police face misconduct probe - BBC News


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## krtek a houby (Nov 1, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I don't give a shit what met policy is. It's common bloody sense that if you go around doing things that are dangerous to your own safety, you run the risk of getting hurt. That's life. Not everything is someone else's fault. 'Own your own shit' as the Americans say.



True, to a point... still wouldn't trust_ all_ the Met enforcers. Some of them have a chip on their shoulder. Like one or two warriors on this thread


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## CNT36 (Nov 1, 2016)

Stop in the nearest safe place? As soon as the filth are there it is no longer safe. I would be inclined to make sure I was somewhere crowded or at least with a trusted witness. Cunts have tried fitting me up, the missus up and a few friends as well. We're all white and in Cornwall ffs.


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## Beats & Pieces (Nov 1, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I live among "people like them". I see the results of their shit all the time. They're still people, and they still deserve the same protections we all do. We all have a right to expect not to be murdered by corrupt, weapon-planting coppers, whether we're hoolies, dealers, or whatever. Anyone who's in favour of a two-tiered system of law is fucked in the head.



The most interesting aspect of your post is the apparent claim to objectivity, and related (personal) positionality of acknowledging a category of 'people like them' and the fact of, 'their shit' who are 'still people' deserving the 'same protections we all do'. It begs the question as to the 'we' that exists as a referent within your reply?


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## Beats & Pieces (Nov 1, 2016)

Above post edited to include 'apparent claim to objectivity'.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm pretty fed up of people making excuses for predatory cunts like Duggan and this Hicks fella. They fuck up this world for lots of people. They aren't victims,they are victimisers. Maybe you don't have to see the effects of the actions of people like them, Pickman's. Well good for you.
> 
> Anyway, I can't be arsed with this any more.



Mark Duggan, known gangster. We know he was a gangster because we have it straight from the lips of the PR department of the people who executed him. This is called victim blaming and it's used by all sorts of violent cunts to justify all sorts of horrible shit.

Even if you want to disregard the evidence of the Duggan inquest, ie that multiple officers lied under oath about what happened to Duggan, and assume that the police statement is accurate and Duggan was a wrong 'un (odd that they'd not already locked him up though isn't it, him being such a gangster and all, maybe he was one of those gangsters who are allowed to proceed with impunity thanks to police corruption) it does not follow from that that the police are entitled to kill him in the street.

And even if you think it should be permissable in law for coppers to excute 'bad people' on the spot, think about all the people the police have labelled as 'bad people' down the years. The Birmingham Six. Jean Charles de Menezes. Liverpool fans. Striking miners. The hippies at the Battle of the Beanfield. Pretty much any black male with a driving licence. Whatever they are allowed to do to the guilty (and it is courts who decide guilt, not filth) they will surely do to everyone else at some point. But they'll start with the most vulnerable, and those deemed to be 'outside' an acceptable norm, because that's how cowards and bullies aways behave.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Mark Duggan, known gangster. We know he was a gangster because we have it straight from the lips of the PR department of the people who executed him. This is called victim blaming and it's used by all sorts of violent cunts to justify all sorts of horrible shit.
> 
> Even if you want to disregard the evidence of the Duggan inquest, ie that multiple officers lied under oath about what happened to Duggan, and assume that the police statement is accurate and Duggan was a wrong 'un (odd that they'd not already locked him up though isn't it, him being such a gangster and all, maybe he was one of those gangsters who are allowed to proceed with impunity thanks to police corruption) it does not follow from that that the police are entitled to kill him in the street.
> 
> And even if you think it should be permissable in law for coppers to excute 'bad people' on the spot, think about all the people the police have labelled as 'bad people' down the years. The Birmingham Six. Jean Charles de Menezes. Liverpool fans. Striking miners. The hippies at the Battle of the Beanfield. Pretty much any black male with a driving licence. Whatever they are allowed to do to the guilty (and it is courts who decide guilt, not filth) they will surely do to everyone else at some point. But they'll start with the most vulnerable, and those deemed to be 'outside' an acceptable norm, because that's how cowards and bullies aways behave.



 Who said the police should have the right to execute people? Who said the police shouldn't be held to account if they do?


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Not glad to see him dead. Just willing to accept he was the architect of his own demise.



Man was selling weed. Number of deaths attributed to weed smoking, off the top of your head? If you can't remember the exact number, just give it as a percentage of deaths attributed to the legal drug alcohol.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Who said the police should have the right to execute people? Who said the police shouldn't be held to account if they do?



The police. And the courts.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I live among "people like them". I see the results of their shit all the time. They're still people, and they still deserve the same protections we all do. We all have a right to expect not to be murdered by corrupt, weapon-planting coppers, whether we're hoolies, dealers, or whatever. Anyone who's in favour of a two-tiered system of law is fucked in the head.



Who said we should have a two-tiered system?


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> The police. And the courts.



Not me then.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Not me then.



You didn't come out and _say_ the police were right to kill these people. You haven't got the balls to do that. You did what victim blamers always do, you sat there and _implied _it. I'm just saying right, if he hadn't decided to be black right, maybe this wouldn't have happened.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Who said we should have a two-tiered system?



Nobody. You just implied it, in such a way as to give yourself a thin protective veneer of deniability when you got called out, as you knew you would.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> You didn't come out and _say_ the police were right to kill these people. You haven't got the balls to do that. You did what victim blamers always do, you sat there and _implied _it. I'm just saying right, if he hadn't decided to be black right, maybe this wouldn't have happened.



This isn't about black or white. That Hicks kid made the same choices. This argument wasn't even about Duggan, for which I agree there is a lot if stuff to mistrust the police about. This conversation is about whether or not a person who decides to embark on a high speed chase to get away from the police is responsible for those actions. That's where this started.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Nobody. You just implied it, in such a way as to give yourself a thin protective veneer of deniability when you got called out, as you knew you would.



I'm glad you have an insight into my brain. That you know my views more than I do.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm glad you have an insight into my brain. That you know my views more than I do.



You're not that hard to figure out old chum. Seen your kind many times before. What you think is a set of subtle and considered opinions is just an armoury of excuses, all of them put there by someone else. You're a vending machine for excuses. It's not that hard to gain insight into a vending machine, because the front is made of glass.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're not that hard to figure out old chum. Seen your kind many times before. What you think is a set of subtle and considered opinions is just an armoury of excuses, all of them put there by someone else. You're a vending machine for excuses. It's not that hard to gain insight into a vending machine, because the front is made of glass.


tbh the alarm bells started ringing when he started on about his opinion being based on morals and principles and not facts or experience. i wonder what yer man's morals and principles are based on...


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're not that hard to figure out old chum. Seen your kind many times before. What you think is a set of subtle and considered opinions is just an armoury of excuses, all of them put there by someone else. You're a vending machine for excuses. It's not that hard to gain insight into a vending machine, because the front is made of glass.



It's just convenient for you that there's no way of proving or disproving that accusation. No need to prove it, just say it and that's good enough, right? A mighty comfortable position for you to hold indeed. Never mind I've been posting here for 14 years without anyone ever having noticed this secret truth about me you have so skillfully unveiled. You're like Inspector Clueso or something.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's just convenient for you that there's no way of proving or disproving that accusation. No need to prove it, just say it and that's good enough, right?



A bit like calling a dead man a gangster.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder what yer man's morals and principles are based on...



Among other things, not risking running over members of the public by getting into car chases. I'm sure the son of a millionaire here is just a victim though.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Among other things, not risking running over members of the public by getting into car chases. I'm sure the son of a millionaire here is just a victim though.


no, 'what are the origins of your morals and principles', not 'what won't you do'.

unless you really want to say your entire moral code is based on not getting into car chases.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no, 'what are the origins of your morals and principles', not 'what won't you do'.
> 
> unless you really want to say your entire moral code is based on not getting into car chases.



My moral code is based on not doing harm to others, or things are likely to cause such harm.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

Anyway, you're dodging the issue. Is Joshua Dobby to be held responsible for what he did, Pickman's?


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> My moral code is based on not doing harm to others, or things are likely to cause such harm.



But you will countenance others doing things which cause harm. Like shooting people. You're OK with people getting shot as long as a) you don't have to do it yourself, b) the shooters are the white, sorry, the _right_ sort of people and c) the people who get shot were asking for it. According to the people who shot them.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Anyway, you're dodging the issue. Is Joshua Dobby to be held responsible for what he did, Pickman's?



Yes. Does he deserve to die for what he did? No.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> But you will countenance others doing things which cause harm. Like shooting people. You're OK with people getting shot as long as a) you don't have to do it yourself, b) the shooters are the white, sorry, the _right_ sort of people and c) the people who get shot were asking for it. According to the people who shot them.



More made up bullshit about what I will and will not 'countenance'. And apparently now I'm a racist.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes. Does he deserve to die for what he did? No.



I've never said anyone deserves to die. Quote me saying otherwise. What I've said is that he, and other people that have done similar, have only themselves to blame. It really is as simple as that. No hidden agenda. No secret racism for you to expose unto the world.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Anyway, you're dodging the issue. Is Joshua Dobby to be held responsible for what he did, Pickman's?


have you not been following the case?


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I've never said anyone deserves to die. Quote me saying otherwise.



Your wish is my command:



> What I've said is that he, and other people that have done similar, have only themselves to blame. It really is as simple as that. No hidden agenda. No secret racism for you to expose unto the world.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

As for secret racism, does it strike you as odd that black people have 'only themselves to blame' so much more often than white people?


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Your wish is my command:



Attributing responsibility is not the same thing as saying that someone deserves death.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> As for secret racism, does it strike you as odd that black people have 'only themselves to blame' so much more often than white people?



Now you're just making shit up again. Hicks - white. Dobby - white.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Who said we should have a two-tiered system?



You've implicitly demanded one by stating that (to paraphrase) you believe that some people should be treated differently from others.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2016)

Beats & Pieces said:


> The most interesting aspect of your post is the apparent claim to objectivity, and related (personal) positionality of acknowledging a category of 'people like them' and the fact of, 'their shit' who are 'still people' deserving the 'same protections we all do'. It begs the question as to the 'we' that exists as a referent within your reply?



I'm not claiming objectivity, and are you always so pretentious/keen to parade your learnedness?


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## Thimble Queen (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I've never said anyone deserves to die. Quote me saying otherwise. What I've said is that he, and other people that have done similar, have only themselves to blame. It really is as simple as that. No hidden agenda. No secret racism for you to expose unto the world.



You also said this, which heavily implies you think Duggan got what he was coming to him. Even tho he didn't have a fucking gun 



ItWillNeverWork said:


> Live by the gun, die by the gun.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> You've implicitly demanded one by stating that (to paraphrase) you believe that some people should be treated differently from others.



That's not a paraphrase, it's completely made up. Where have I said anything that could be paraphrased as that? My position is simple. One law for everyone - for me, for you, for rich, poor, black, or white. Everyone.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Now you're just making shit up again. Hicks - white. Dobby - white.



You're aware that national trends cannot be derived from individual cases? Black people are vasty more likely to come to grief at the hands of the police than white people, when you consider the relative population sizes. If you support this state of affairs, if you suggest that those who suffer from it are solely responsible for their suffering then yes, you're a fucking racist.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> One law for everyone - for me, for you, for rich, poor, black, or white. Everyone.



How's the weather in fairyland this morning?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> That's not a paraphrase, it's completely made up. Where have I said anything that could be paraphrased as that? My position is simple. One law for everyone - for me, for you, for rich, poor, black, or white. Everyone.



"I'm pretty fed up of people making excuses for predatory cunts like Duggan and this Hicks fella. They fuck up this world for lots of people. They aren't victims,they are victimisers. Maybe you don't have to see the effects of the actions of people like them".

I'm fairly sure anyone reading that *isn't* going to think "wow, this poster truly believes in one law for all".


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm glad you have an insight into my brain. That you know my views more than I do.



He doesn't have an insight into your brain.

He has an insight into your mind.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> A bit like calling a dead man a gangster.



Or a "predatory cunt".


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

Thimble Queen said:


> You also said this, which heavily implies you think Duggan got what he was coming to him. Even tho he didn't have a fucking gun



I'll admit with the Duggan issue is more uncertainty about what the truth is. It wasn't me that brought him into the conversation, but I'll happily apologise for making that comment. 

The issue here for me is the police pursuit one, and the wider issue of who is responsible for their own actions. No one forces a person to speed off when pulled over.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're aware that national trends cannot be derived from individual cases? Black people are vasty more likely to come to grief at the hands of the police than white people, when you consider the relative population sizes. If you support this state of affairs, if you suggest that those who suffer from it are solely responsible for their suffering then yes, you're a fucking racist.



What the fuck are you one about? How is any of this relevant to my point? How on earth have I supported black people being pulled over more often than white? Where did I do this? Nowhere.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Nov 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> "I'm pretty fed up of people making excuses for predatory cunts like Duggan and this Hicks fella. They fuck up this world for lots of people. They aren't victims,they are victimisers. Maybe you don't have to see the effects of the actions of people like them".
> 
> I'm fairly sure anyone reading that *isn't* going to think "wow, this poster truly believes in one law for all".



Literally _nowhere _in that quote do I say there should be a two-tiered system of law. Nowhere. If I made other peoples' lives a misery and put other peoples' lives at risk with my behaviour, I would expect the same treatment under the law as anyone else.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> What the fuck are you one about? How is any of this relevant to my point? How on earth have I supported black people being pulled over more often than white? Where did I do this? Nowhere.



Look at what thread you're on mate. Look at who you're defending.


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## Beats & Pieces (Nov 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not claiming objectivity, and are you always so pretentious/keen to parade your learnedness?



The fact you recognise your lack of objectivity is significant, and at least it is honest. As for the rest of your post, given the fact you once described me as 'vile' (for no apparent reason) I suppose I should not be surprised. I am, however, saddened, given the fact that your contributions are usually at least argued and coherent according to your particular position.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Literally _nowhere _in that quote do I say there should be a two-tiered system of law. Nowhere.


Yeh. you didn't need to make it wholly explicit but your meaning clear enough.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Literally _nowhere _in that quote do I say there should be a two-tiered system of law. Nowhere. If I made other peoples' lives a misery and put other peoples' lives at risk with my behaviour, I would expect the same treatment under the law as anyone else.



And yet you reckon that "predatory cunts" who "have only themselves to blame" deserve what they get when the OB murder them. If that's not wishing for a two-tiered law system, it's something very close.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 2, 2016)

It's worth remembering that the number one justification for abuse at the hands of the police seems to be "they should have complied". If she hadn't argued with the police about being pulled over she wouldn't have been tased. If he hadn't reached for his wallet he wouldn't have been maced. If he had just stayed absolutely motionless when the police appeared he wouldn't have been shot. This is also the argument used by the police: "stop resisting" is what they shout in the US while beating the crap out of people. (Pretty sure this is not a new thing.)


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 3, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's worth remembering that the number one justification for abuse at the hands of the police seems to be "they should have complied". If she hadn't argued with the police about being pulled over she wouldn't have been tased. If he hadn't reached for his wallet he wouldn't have been maced. If he had just stayed absolutely motionless when the police appeared he wouldn't have been shot. This is also the argument used by the police: "stop resisting" is what they shout in the US while beating the crap out of people. (Pretty sure this is not a new thing.)



You are entitled to defend yourself against unwarranted agression or assault regardless of whether or not your assailants are in uniform. Coppers will however use all manner of low tricks to smear their victims in order to get themselves of the hook. Cases of police being charged with perjury for giving false evidence against those they accuse of assaulting them are very rare considering the number of assault PC charges which are either dropped or found to be baseless.


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## Humberto (Nov 3, 2016)

There are some good ones. They get drummed out if they don't play along. The shites get promoted and looked after. And the 'scum' as they see them will be treated as such. More severely if they are easily marginalised.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 3, 2016)

If they play along, then they're not 'good ones' at all.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2016)

Humberto said:


> There are some good ones. They get drummed out if they don't play along. The shites get promoted and looked after. And the 'scum' as they see them will be treated as such. More severely if they are easily marginalised.


Yeh. everyone's met a cop who's been decent. during the poll tax I met a cop out of the tsg who said how he agreed with non-payment. but what else have they done when they weren't being decent to you?


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 3, 2016)

Black Lives Matter activists go on trial over protest in Nottingham

It will be interesting to see how this case develops given that...

Black Lives Matter activists who sparked chaos for thousands with City airport runway protest walk free from court


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 4, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Black Lives Matter activists go on trial over protest in Nottingham
> 
> It will be interesting to see how this case develops given that...
> 
> Black Lives Matter activists who sparked chaos for thousands with City airport runway protest walk free from court



All four found guilty, and given conditional discharges plus costs. Judge was surprisingly sympathetic considering.


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