# Protests - do they always have to involve socialist worker types and the wind powered rave tricycle?



## fucthest8 (Apr 13, 2012)

Seriously though, I'd really love to see some "grey" protest - middle aged, middle england types gathered silently in parliament square for some synchronised tutting at a pre-determined time.

I'm fucking sick of seeing footage of all the usual suspects on demos, just giving the daily mail more ammo to point out how unconnected from most of the population the protesters are, sick of overhearing people talk about just how unconnected from most of the population the protesters are, just heartily fucking sick of the slant that is always, always put on any demo ...

If it was parliament sq. full of people that looked like daily mail readers maybe then people would sit up and fucking pay attention


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## temper_tantrum (Apr 13, 2012)

The 26/3/2011 looked pretty 'normal' to me.


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## biggus dickus (Apr 13, 2012)

The vast majority are students aren't they? Or teachers....


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## Bernie Gunther (Apr 13, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> The vast majority are students aren't they? Or teachers....


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## Libertad (Apr 14, 2012)

​Bangin'​


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> Seriously though, I'd really love to see some "grey" protest - middle aged, middle england types gathered silently in parliament square for some synchronised tutting at a pre-determined time.
> 
> I'm fucking sick of seeing footage of all the usual suspects on demos, just giving the daily mail more ammo to point out how unconnected from most of the population the protesters are, sick of overhearing people talk about just how unconnected from most of the population the protesters are, just heartily fucking sick of the slant that is always, always put on any demo ...
> 
> If it was parliament sq. full of people that looked like daily mail readers maybe then people would sit up and fucking pay attention


 
The 'Occupy' protests were notable for the broad spectrum of people attending.


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## Puddy_Tat (Apr 14, 2012)

I can't help thinking that the media will find and photograph the sort of protesters they want to illustrate the slanted story that they want to put out.

Like with 'gay pride' sort of events where they single out the most outlandishly dressed drag queens, or with football where they single out the fans that they think look like hooligans...


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## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2012)

I went on a tiny march to do with becketts park. Saving it from something or other. Years ago, from the park to the guild hall. A sea of blue rinses, I must have been the youngest person there. Not a juggler or paper seller in sight


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## fucthest8 (Apr 14, 2012)

Libertad said:


> ​


 
Well, they got their wish didn't they? Must be chuffed to bits that Blair is gone.

And to JC3 - I don't want a broad spectrum, I want a narrow spectrum, so that no-one can single out the misfits and use images of them only to go "see? all the usual suspects". See photo above.


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## fucthest8 (Apr 14, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> I went on a tiny march to do with becketts park. Saving it from something or other. Years ago, from the park to the guild hall. A sea of blue rinses, I must have been the youngest person there. Not a juggler or paper seller in sight


 
Did they save the park from something or other?
You probably ruined it by being too young


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> Well, they got their wish didn't they?
> 
> And to JC3 - I don't want a broad spectrum, I want a narrow spectrum, so that no-one can single out the misfits and use images of them only to go "see? all the usual suspects". See photo above.


 
The thing is, if it's not a message they want to be out there, they won't put it out there. The Occupy movement is a prime example. At least at first, you'd have thought that it was maybe 50 people out in a couple of cities. The mainstream media quashed the coverage.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> Did they save the park from something or other?
> You probably ruined it by being too young


 

Well it's still there so I can only assume the taint of youth was too small to block the power of the Elderly Marchers


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I can't help thinking that the media will find and photograph the sort of protesters they want to illustrate the slanted story that they want to put out.
> 
> Like with 'gay pride' sort of events where they single out the most outlandishly dressed drag queens, or with football where they single out the fans that they think look like hooligans...


 
It's just a more interesting picture if you have someone in a daft costume than someone normal.

Like with gay pride of course they are going to photograph the gays on the floats dressed as trojan spearmen or whatever instead of the normal people with a badge on. A friend of mine who is a gay went to that big one in Amsterdam and showed me his pictures and they were all of the very very gay people on big gay boats, it's not an agenda it's just what you would take pictures of because you could take photos of normal gay people when there wasn't a parade on....


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## Belushi (Apr 14, 2012)

Is it me or are you becoming more leftist JC?


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

As well as the rave tricycle does anyone remember that fucking samba band with plastic cartons as drums? Weirdly they never looked like they wanted to be there


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 14, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Is it me or are you becoming more leftist JC?


 
I think I'm becoming more depressed. The things that are going on now have always been going on; but it seems that somehow lately, it's worse.

Ever see this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_Job_(film)

After watching that, I came away thinking that all is lost. We're fucked, and the people fucking us can't be dislodged.

I also believe that the way we live is fundamentally wrong. I've had some experiences with different cultures - both here and abroad, and I'm left with the feeling that, here I am this old, and I've been doing it this way for so long.

That's the real killer. If you're immersed in something and know nothing different, everything's fine, inside your head. The trouble comes when you become aware of something different, that looks like it's better. But you're still stuck in the place you always were.

I'm not sure what that makes me.


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## fucthest8 (Apr 14, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> Well it's still there so I can only assume the taint of youth was too small to block the power of the Elderly Marchers


 
Yes, but given that you can't recall what you were protesting about, it just still being there might not be the point.


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## fucthest8 (Apr 14, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> We're fucked, and the people fucking us can't be dislodged.
> 
> I'm not sure what that makes me.


 
You may be right and I feel much the same; let's face it, the people fucking us are more ruthless than we are and that means they always win. Plus ca change ....

I still want to fight it though. Just so I can say I didn't just sit back and let them fuck me without at least struggling.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> You may be right and I feel much the same; let's face it, the people fucking us are more ruthless than we are and that means they always win. Plus ca change ....
> 
> I still want to fight it though. Just so I can say I didn't just sit back and let them fuck me without at least struggling.


 
You're younger, with more juice.


I guess it's like that saying, better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

But also, I have come to believe that you can never fight your way out of these things.  The answer is spiritual, imo. The only way you can topple the structure is to teach people to not want what the structure gives. The thing we can change is ourselves. When millions of us have changed, they will no longer be able to treat us like a commodity.


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## twentythreedom (Apr 14, 2012)

Libertad said:


> ​​Bangin'​


excellent facepalm by the girl on the right of that pic


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

I think that that hippy cartoon with the kid sitting on the tree saying 'We have seen the enemy, and it is us' is still what we need to be learning. Fighting this and that but it's still fighting. We need to be creative and define ourselves by our relationship with reality on our own terms rather than in opposition to anything.


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## frogwoman (Apr 14, 2012)

i always think old ladies are going to be the revolutionary vanguard. i'm serious btw, some of them are probably a lot more militant than the average anarchist. you should talk to some of them.


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## Frances Lengel (Apr 14, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think I'm becoming more depressed. The things that are going on now have always been going on; but it seems that somehow lately, it's worse.
> 
> Ever see this?
> 
> ...


 

Well, it makes you a thoughtful man if nowt else.


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## fucthest8 (Apr 14, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You're younger, with more juice.
> 
> 
> I guess it's like that saying, better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
> ...


 
Heh, Catch 22 eh?

You probably have a point, and it was nicely made. t-shirt material "it needs millions of us to change so we can't be treated like a commodity". Or something. The problem is that it's easier to fit into the structure, than not. We _can_ change ourselves, but most don't realise it's themselves that is the problem. I think massive protests have a part to play in that.


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## fucthest8 (Apr 14, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> excellent facepalm by the girl on the right of that pic


 
"Oh _fuck,_ I'm a trustifarian. Shite"


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> Heh, Catch 22 eh?
> 
> You probably have a point, and it was nicely made. t-shirt material "it needs millions of us to change so we can't be treated like a commodity". Or something. The problem is that it's easier to fit into the structure, than not. We _can_ change ourselves, but most don't realise it's themselves that is the problem. I think massive protests have a part to play in that.


 
If it's going to be on a t shirt, we'll have to reduce the words, make it punchier. Then maybe.........I can become a millionaire!

I agree. Protests can help raise awareness. Which brings us back to the original point: selective coverage of protest by the mainstream media.

And yes it is easier to fit in. As they say, we live in the best gilded cage that money can buy.


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## fucthest8 (Apr 14, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> i always think old ladies are going to be the revolutionary vanguard. i'm serious btw, some of them are probably a lot more militant than the average anarchist. you should talk to some of them.


 
My point exactly. We just need to get them out on the streets. My mum is still _furious_ that her generation were sold National Insurance as the way to pay for the NHS ... where does/did all the money go? She's genuinely still angry about it 60 years later and recent events have made her angrier. Really, parliament sq, 3 minutes of tutting.


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## ska invita (Apr 14, 2012)

the last big trade union trip to the park had a million 'normal' people at it. i remember when the black bloc joined the main route at piccadily one old dear quipped to them ' i think you're on the wrong march'.


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## ska invita (Apr 14, 2012)

there are lots of militant older women in the peace movement, forever in and out of jail


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## frogwoman (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> Seriously though, I'd really love to see some "grey" protest - middle aged, middle england types gathered silently in parliament square for some synchronised tutting at a pre-determined time.
> 
> I'm fucking sick of seeing footage of all the usual suspects on demos, just giving the daily mail more ammo to point out how unconnected from most of the population the protesters are, sick of overhearing people talk about just how unconnected from most of the population the protesters are, just heartily fucking sick of the slant that is always, always put on any demo ...
> 
> If it was parliament sq. full of people that looked like daily mail readers maybe then people would sit up and fucking pay attention


 
I think this is linked in to the fact that for years that the left (with a few exceptions) has campaigned on issues which are removed from the majority of people's lives in this country and as a result in many areas hasn't built much of a local base in the area, which is something that regularly gets discussed on urban75. Also I think there is probably a bit of snobbery there as well.

I think it IS changing though. I honestly don't want to sound over optimistic but I think some of the recent protests such as the sparks' protest in london, as well as some of the stuff here locally is very far from just being the usual suspects and indeed sometimes involves issues/areas that much of the left would have previously been completley uninterested in. i think there is work to be done but I don't think that the gloomy picture often depicted here is always entirely reflective of reality (although there is alot of truth in it)


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## ska invita (Apr 14, 2012)

Libertad said:


> ​Bangin'​


 
rinky dink is cool...amazing how it pops up so many places

it was on blue peter or something like that once too...something to do with how much energy it takes to get a lightbulb to go on... for kids


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## imposs1904 (Apr 14, 2012)

ska invita said:


> there are lots of militant older women in the peace movement, forever in and out of jail


 
At every demo in New York:


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## fucthest8 (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> We need to be creative and define ourselves by our relationship with reality on our own terms rather than in opposition to anything.


 
No, couldn't agree less. To do so would be to just sit back and let it happen. Opposition to something does_ not _mean that it's _all_ that defines our relationship with reality.


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## ska invita (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> No, couldn't agree less. To do so would be to just sit back and let it happen. Opposition to something does_ not _mean that it's _all_ that defines our relationship with reality.


 NO! without a YES! message is a problem though...


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## fucthest8 (Apr 14, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I think this is linked in to the fact that for years that the left (with a few exceptions) has campaigned on issues which are removed from the majority of people's lives in this country and as a result in many areas hasn't built much of a local base in the area, which is something that regularly gets discussed on urban75. Also I think there is probably a bit of snobbery there as well.


 
I don't think it's the left campaigning on issues too removed from many peoples daily lives, I think it's a combination of the point JC makes about coverage, your mention of snobbery and - more worryingly - the impression this gives a huge number of people. Honestly folks, once you get out of the cities in the UK, a huge percentage of people see the protests (when they see them on TV) as a whole bunch of people who are _nothing to do with them_ doing nothing more than causing trouble ... that's the thing we have to break. I totally accept that there is a lot of good stuff going on out there, done by "regular" people .... but the exposure is negligible.

I want to hear the people I work with talking about protest in a positive way, not just regurgitating what they've been fed via t.v and newspapers who, recently, seem to only show the negative.


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> No, couldn't agree less. To do so would be to just sit back and let it happen. Opposition to something does_ not _mean that it's _all_ that defines our relationship with reality.


 
I don't mean to be isolated and sit back, I mean that it's pointless going to ask City of London or whatever to change their ways. There isn't a reason for them to change at the moment and noone has come up with a good reason for them to change. I mean people tend to say either the threat of violence or some bullshit moral reason but neither of them are appealing. It's all so vague, Occupy hopefully will be the end of it because they are planning to keep doing it and they don't even ask for anything they just sit about so let them sit about if they can afford it....


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## frogwoman (Apr 14, 2012)

> Honestly folks, once you get out of the cities in the UK, a huge percentage of people see the protests (when they see them on TV) as a whole bunch of people who are _nothing to do with them_ doing nothing more than causing trouble ... that's the thing we have to break. I totally accept that there is a lot of good stuff going on out there, done by "regular" people .... but the exposure is negligible.


 
Yep. Loads of stuff is being done, there are loads of anti cuts campaigns being started but not all of them would even recognise themselves as such ...

Totally agree with you with the cities thing. However I think with the november 30th thing this is beginning to change (even though a lot of people did think the strikers were a bunch of troublemakers).

There is a LOT more sympathy for this stuff than we think. I think another barrier is the fact that (and i know this experience when i've asked mates to get involved) people think that this type of stuff is only for people who are "brainy" and they don't necessarily feel confident to get involvled or think they would be welcomed if they did. A lot of people think that it's not the sort of thing people like them do even if they agree with the aims etc. it's another barrier that ends up excluding people (or making people think they're going to be excluded before they start) even if in practice the experience could be different.


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## frogwoman (Apr 14, 2012)

We HAVE to get this right though.


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## fucthest8 (Apr 14, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> There is a LOT more sympathy for this stuff than we think. I think another barrier is the fact that (and i know this experience when i've asked mates to get involved) people think that this type of stuff is only for people who are "brainy" and they don't necessarily feel confident to get involvled or think they would be welcomed if they did. A lot of people think that it's not the sort of thing people like them do even if they agree with the aims etc. it's another barrier that ends up excluding people (or making people think they're going to be excluded before they start) even if in practice the experience could be different.


 



frogwoman said:


> We HAVE to get this right though.


 

As always froggy you're incredibly perceptive; breaking down those barriers is absolutely _key_ and I was trying to allude to that in my sarcastic, cynical OP. I genuinely believe that a march composed of all those people who _wouldn't_ ordinarily protest could be really powerful. Something _without_ the unions, the trustifarians ... all of that. I really hope people can understand that I'm not against all that kind of protest, but I really want something that the Mail will report because it's _their_ people out there protesting!


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## frogwoman (Apr 14, 2012)

nah, i think the unions are still important, don't forget that about 3-4 million+ people are in unions. but rather than not having them in a protest i think part of the thing is trying to get people to join unions or do union-like stuff even if they're not in one. part of the thing with unions is that a lot of people my age (for example) don't even know what they are and if they do know they frequently think that it's just for people in the public sector, who aren't agency workers, who work on the trains etc.

i think workplace organisation is massively important. i'm not saying you don't but i think that things like November 30th helped massively in terms of public perception of the unions, there are now more private sector workers going on strike, etc.


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## Belushi (Apr 14, 2012)

Forgive my cynicism but if the Mail readership rally it will be for something like this again


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Yep. Loads of stuff is being done, there are loads of anti cuts campaigns being started but not all of them would even recognise themselves as such ...
> 
> Totally agree with you with the cities thing. However I think with the november 30th thing this is beginning to change (even though a lot of people did think the strikers were a bunch of troublemakers).
> 
> There is a LOT more sympathy for this stuff than we think. I think another barrier is the fact that (and i know this experience when i've asked mates to get involved) people think that this type of stuff is only for people who are "brainy" and they don't necessarily feel confident to get involvled or think they would be welcomed if they did. A lot of people think that it's not the sort of thing people like them do even if they agree with the aims etc. it's another barrier that ends up excluding people (or making people think they're going to be excluded before they start) even if in practice the experience could be different.


 
A lot of people just can't be bothered as well or maybe even have better things to do, spending time with loved ones, being active in their communities, reading books.....

Have you noticed how noone ever says 'demonstration' anymore? because they don't demonstrate anything positive!


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## Rogue_Leader (Apr 14, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> The thing is, if it's not a message they want to be out there, they won't put it out there. The Occupy movement is a prime example. At least at first, you'd have thought that it was maybe 50 people out in a couple of cities. The mainstream media quashed the coverage.


 
Yes, they did. Most of those stupid 'review of the year' type things that sprout in the TV schedules like fungus in the week between Christmas and New Year didn't even mention Occupy.


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## scifisam (Apr 14, 2012)

Belushi said:


> Forgive my cynicism but if the Mail readership rally it will be for something like this again


 
In that pic it looks he's saying waaaankeeer! At himself.


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## Libertad (Apr 14, 2012)

ska invita said:


> rinky dink is cool...amazing how it pops up so many places
> 
> it was on blue peter or something like that once too...something to do with how much energy it takes to get a lightbulb to go on... for kids


 
Yep, they're good people  ABBA's "Dancing Queen" is their anthem  Nowt wrong with that.


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## Kaka Tim (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Have you noticed how noone ever says 'demonstration' anymore? because they don't demonstrate anything positive!


 
No i haven't noticed this. Probably because its bollocks.

Pretty much every political demonstration is an act of resistance to an attack from the state/ruling class - anti poll tax, anti war, anti cuts, anti - pit closures, third runway, job losses, slashing of services, anti austerity.

And that resistance is something we are hopefully going to be seeing a lot more of. Its not 'negativity' is survival - look at greece ffs.


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

look at greece ffs


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## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> Seriously though, I'd really love to see some "grey" protest - middle aged, middle england types gathered silently in parliament square for some synchronised tutting at a pre-determined time.
> 
> I'm fucking sick of seeing footage of all the usual suspects on demos, just giving the daily mail more ammo to point out how unconnected from most of the population the protesters are, sick of overhearing people talk about just how unconnected from most of the population the protesters are, just heartily fucking sick of the slant that is always, always put on any demo ...
> 
> If it was parliament sq. full of people that looked like daily mail readers maybe then people would sit up and fucking pay attention


Damn the sensationalist agenda lead media for using images which fit the angle of the stories...

However do they do that it's like they selectively edit to give an impression of disconnected disparate oppositions from freaks and weirdos, knowing their readship won't relate to them...


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

Kaka Tim said:


> No i haven't noticed this. Probably because its bollocks.
> 
> Pretty much every political demonstration is an act of resistance to an attack from the state/ruling class - anti poll tax, anti war, anti cuts, anti - pit closures, third runway, job losses, slashing of services, anti austerity.
> 
> And that resistance is something we are hopefully going to be seeing a lot more of. Its not 'negativity' is survival - look at greece ffs.


 
How come it was a totally different set of people in the riots last summer which really did scare the establishment to the protestors with rave powered hippy bikes?

And why did 'the establishment' react so differently?


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## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 14, 2012)

You're a bit of a simplistic cock aren't you...


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> You're a bit of a simplistic cock aren't you...


 
Kind of ironic that because you are being really simplistic with your response 

Very arch


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## xes (Apr 14, 2012)

fuct, you only ever see these types on the news, because it gives a false impression that the protest was full of hippies/nutjobs/rioters/whatever the media need to show to make it look bad on the protest, and good on the goverment/police. The news have their pro goverment agendas, and they twist it so that the daily mail/sun reading public think that protesting is bad, and full of wankers. Like JC said back there, the occupy protests had loads of people from all walks of life. But if you find some news footage of occupy, then it's all the nutters, the ranting screaming few. They don't show the real thing, they don't fucking dare. If people thought protesting was a good positive way to influence the way our goverments behave, then they'd be out on their ear in no time. They fear that.


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## Rogue_Leader (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> How come it was a totally different set of people in the riots last summer which really did scare the establishment to the protestors with rave powered hippy bikes?
> 
> And why did 'the establishment' react so differently?


 
Because in order to make a point, to really make a point, you have to break things. That was what the media clearly understood but could never acknowledge.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Kind of ironic that because you are being really simplistic with your response
> 
> Very arch


Looks like a cock, spaffs all over the forum like a cock, must be a cock...


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## Rogue_Leader (Apr 14, 2012)

xes said:


> fuct, you only ever see these types on the news, because it gives a false impression that the protest was full of hippies/nutjobs/rioters/whatever the media need to show to make it look bad on the protest, and good on the goverment/police. The news have their pro goverment agendas, and they twist it so that the daily mail/sun reading public think that protesting is bad, and full of wankers. Like JC said back there, the occupy protests had loads of people from all walks of life. But if you find some news footage of occupy, then it's all the nutters, the ranting screaming few. They don't show the real thing, they don't fucking dare. If people thought protesting was a good positive way to influence the way our goverments behave, then they'd be out on their ear in no time. They fear that.


 
That's definitely true. The big anti-war protest in London in 2003 (the summer one where it didn't rain) was astonishing for the diversity of support. I remember hearing someone (who was obviously a hardcore protester) say "Have you seen this? There are people here with handbags and manicured nails!" But of all the people there, the solar rave bike and the "Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity" banner made the news.


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## frogwoman (Apr 14, 2012)

i think though that people misunderestimate the amount of support there is, it ends up almost becoming self exclusionary sometimes because (and i know i've done this in the past) you assume people aren't interested so it becomes sort of a vicious cycle. I don't think we should underestimate the amount of sympathy out there for this stuff especially the anti austerity things which affect everyone.


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## fucthest8 (Apr 14, 2012)

xes said:


> They don't show the real thing, they don't fucking dare. If people thought protesting was a good positive way to influence the way our goverments behave, then they'd be out on their ear in no time. They fear that.


 
Entirely my point. We need to rebrand protesting.  I say again, I don't want diversity, I want endless footage of a sea of beige which willl have a whole section of the public who would normally be saying "gah, look at _them_" going "Well look at that; it's _us_ "




Rogue_Leader said:


> But of all the people there, the solar rave bike and the "Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity" banner made the news.


 
So get rid of them. If they aren't there, they can't be reported.


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

Rogue_Leader said:


> Because in order to make a point, to really make a point, you have to break things. That was what the media clearly understood but could never acknowledge.


 
That's exactly what I said yes


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## Rogue_Leader (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> So get rid of them. If they aren't there, they can't be reported.


 
Even if I agreed that removing the core protest from a protest was a desirable outcome (which I don't) how would you do such a thing?


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> Looks like a cock, spaffs all over the forum like a cock, must be a cock...


 
People like this guy keep people away from protests as well, especially since they often have posh voices. A lot of people hear some posh guy braying through a megaphone against something and it could be black people or bankers for all the difference it makes, it's just posh people who couldn't hack it in the posh world and can get away with it in the normal world


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## frogwoman (Apr 14, 2012)

I don't agree with removing them especially because that's a lot of young people's first experience of protests and they're often seen as boring - if there is music and bands, strange people, etc it can be really fun especially in summer.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> Seriously though, I'd really love to see some "grey" protest - middle aged, middle england types gathered silently in parliament square for some synchronised tutting at a pre-determined time.
> 
> I'm fucking sick of seeing footage of all the usual suspects on demos, just giving the daily mail more ammo to point out how unconnected from most of the population the protesters are, sick of overhearing people talk about just how unconnected from most of the population the protesters are, just heartily fucking sick of the slant that is always, always put on any demo ...
> 
> If it was parliament sq. full of people that looked like daily mail readers maybe then people would sit up and fucking pay attention


 
It's not the Swappies I object to, they're like cockroaches crawling out from under a rock whenever there's a protest.

No, what I object to are samba bands. It's a protest, not a fucking carnival!!


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## fucthest8 (Apr 14, 2012)

Rogue_Leader said:


> Even if I agreed that removing the core protest from a protest was a desirable outcome (which I don't) how would you do such a thing?


 
For the avoidance of doubt, I know what I'm talking about is a pipe dream, but what I'm talking about is the core protest being an entirely different set of people. The Occupy protests were still fundamentally flawed because what a lot of people saw was a load of tents cluttering up the front of St Paul's, etc. I'm talking about motivating a whole section of people who currently would not protest - and them protesting in isolation from the elements that the press would always seize on.


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> For the avoidance of doubt, I know what I'm talking about is a pipe dream, but what I'm talking about is the core protest being an entirely different set of people. The Occupy protests were still fundamentally flawed because what a lot of people saw was a load of tents cluttering up the front of St Paul's, etc. I'm talking about motivating a whole section of people who currently would not protest - and them protesting in isolation from the elements that the press would always seize on.


 
Like the EDL?


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## IC3D (Apr 14, 2012)

When the national grid shuts down due to massive debt Rinky Dink will be the new X Factor. If you think fuct you can control the image of a protest movement in the national media you've been watching to many makeover programs.


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## stethoscope (Apr 14, 2012)

Personally I think that the wider public not coming on protests because they don't see 'people like them' is a cop-out. If you're angry about an issue, get out and protest about it - and if you make new allegiances with people you don't normally mix with whilst you do so then all the better.

But I rather fear too many people instead prefer to 'tut' at the pages of the Mail and moan about having to queue at the pumps/i'm not hanging with those swappies and crusties/what shall I do with little Quentin when those teachers with the better pension than me are on strike/look at those flamboyant queers/what do those travellers being evicted have anything to do with my civil liberties, etc.


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

steph said:


> Personally I think that the wider public not coming on protests because they don't see 'people like them' is a cop-out. If you're angry about an issue, get out and protest about it - and if you make new allegiances with people you don't normally mix with whilst you do so then all the better.
> 
> But I rather fear too many people instead prefer to 'tut' at the pages of the Mail and moan about having to queue at the pumps/i'm not hanging with those swappies/what shall I do with little Quentin when those teachers with the better pension than me are on strike/look at those flamboyant queers/what do those travellers being evicted have anything to do with my civil liberties, etc.


 
I rather fear that too


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## Rogue_Leader (Apr 14, 2012)

steph said:


> what do those travellers being evicted have anything to do with my civil liberties, etc.


 
It was interesting to contrast the media's response to the Dale Farm eviction with the compulsory purchase applications in the Chilterns to build the High Speed Rail link. The reverse-ferret was stunning, watching the Mail and the Express suddenly realise that they believed in the primacy of property owners' rights and apparently drag most of their readers by the nose through the U-turn.


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## stethoscope (Apr 14, 2012)

Rogue_Leader said:


> It was interesting to contrast the media's response to the Dale Farm eviction with the compulsory purchase applications in the Chilterns to build the High Speed Rail link. The reverse-ferret was stunning, watching the Mail and the Express suddenly realise that they believed in the primacy of property owners' rights and apparently drag most of their readers by the nose through the U-turn.


 
Yep.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 14, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> For the avoidance of doubt, I know what I'm talking about is a pipe dream, but what I'm talking about is the core protest being an entirely different set of people. The Occupy protests were still fundamentally flawed because what a lot of people saw was a load of tents cluttering up the front of St Paul's, etc. I'm talking about motivating a whole section of people who currently would not protest - and them protesting in isolation from the elements that the press would always seize on.


 
I'm going to be really boring and reiterate a point I've probably made a hundred times before - we won't see either a "different class" of protester, or a "united front" of protesters until a tipping point is reached where Joe and Josephine Average have more to lose by not protesting than by doing so. People are unlikely to put themselves (and their family's security) on the line for anything less, outwith the rare protest against atrocity, such as the StW marches.
BTW, what makes you so sanguine that the state won't deploy the usual methods if there are no Crusties, Trustafarians and other "colourful" characters to point the camera at, and bring their own?


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## stethoscope (Apr 14, 2012)

I make the point above about mixing with others because that for me is the best way to create larger and more inclusive movements and greater solidarity on issues in which to fight against.

Protests against cuts, wars, civil liberties, criminal justice act, whatever, will inevitably always start off with smaller, what might be cast as left-wing and/or 'minority' groups, and the wider public will stick up their nose and say 'what's that to do with me? its full of crusties, hard lefties and undesirables'. And then over time as things begin to affect them too, they suddenly take notice and eventually get involved also. A broader and stronger movement gains shape.

I remember not really appreciating the importance of events like Beanfield until some years later - whether that be naivety or ignorance (I mean I could see the police dishing out the usual brutality like) - probably when I started going to free parties in the early 90s and mixing with travellers. I never harboured any negative attitude to say that particular group of people before then, but at the same time I didn't really see how my life and theirs really crossed over, and how issues they faced were also mine and wider societies issues too, despite not being a traveller iyswim.


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## Frances Lengel (Apr 14, 2012)

steph said:


> I make the point above about mixing with others because that for me is the best way to create larger and more inclusive movements and greater solidarity on issues in which to fight against.
> 
> Protests against cuts, wars, civil liberties, criminal justice act, whatever, will inevitably always start off with smaller, what might be cast as left-wing and/or 'minority' groups, and the wider public will stick up their nose and say 'what's that to do with me? its full of crusties, hard lefties and undesirables'. And then over time as things begin to affect them too, they suddenly take notice and eventually get involved also. A broader and stronger movement gains shape.
> 
> I remember not really appreciating the importance of events like Beanfield until some years later - probably when I started going to free parties in the early 90s and mixing with travellers. I never harboured any negative attitude to say that particular group of people before then, but at the same time I didn't really see how my life and theirs really crossed over, and how issues they faced were also mine and wider societies issues too, despite not being a traveller iyswim.


 
Nah.


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## stethoscope (Apr 14, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Nah.


 
Oh ok.


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## Frances Lengel (Apr 14, 2012)

Sorry, I was a bit out of order there. I just think the protesting days are over - It's not the 70's anymore. And when you say "travellers", do you mean actual travellers(ie what people call gypsies) or just muppets, coz in all honesty, I can't see many genuine travellers manning the barricades.


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## stuff_it (Apr 14, 2012)

Libertad said:


> ​Bangin'​


I misread the banner as 'Afterparty'. There should be one of those, like the monster raving loonies. We should have an After Party in politics....


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## stethoscope (Apr 14, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Sorry, I was a bit out of order there. I just think the protesting days are over - It's not the 70's anymore. And when you say "travellers", do you mean actual travellers(ie what people call gypsies) or just muppets, coz in all honesty, I can't see many genuine travellers manning the barricades.


 
That wasn't really the point I was trying to make though - protest movements are always fighting against a wider public who don't see what such a protest has to do with them. Sometimes they eventually do and get on-board, but even with the numbers that attended the March for the Alternative, it doesn't seem to have crossed over into any mass anti-cuts movement - I mean, how fucking bad do things have to get?! 

On the traveller point, I meant as a whole tbh, I was thinking of arguments I still read/hear stuff regularly in the mainstream media, internet, in public - for e.g. when stuff is discussed and enacted through the Public Order or CJ Acts as being 'nothing to do with them', or its 'to do with targeting criminals, those travellers, squatters', etc. when in reality, those issues should be of concern to all. That was just an example as it was in my mind, but it applies to all number of actions.


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## Rogue_Leader (Apr 14, 2012)

steph said:


> On the traveller point, I meant as a whole tbh, I was thinking of arguments I still read/hear stuff regularly in the mainstream media, internet, in public - for e.g. when stuff is discussed and enacted through the Public Order or CJ Acts as being 'nothing to do with them, or its to do with targeting criminals, those travellers, squatters', etc. when in reality, those issues should be of concern to all.


 

It's always the same with Criminal Justice Acts. I remember protests against the 1991 act that took away the right to silence during arrest and banned certain gastherings. No-one cared because it was painted as a measure against 'professional criminals' and 'ravers'. As if ravers ever presented and threat to public safety.

If you read Altered State, it's shocking to remember the level of vehemence and police response levelled against field and warehouse parties in those days. We genuinely believed, and I still believe, that we were doing no-one any harm, and I'm open to argument on this. But at the same time, more people were doing Ecstasy than drinking in pubs. Vested interests were threatened. Something clearly had to be done.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2012)

Dear SWP people, we have organised this protest to make our views heard on a particular issue. We have not organised this protest as an excuse for you lot to roll up with your megaphones and your placards and generally use the whole thing as an excuse for you to promote the staggeringly irrelevant shower of retrogressive one-note cretins you call a party.

If you or your laughable ideology had any popular support you wouldn't need to keep doing this, and the fact that you do should tell you that you're flogging a horse that's been dead for the better part of a century and that everyone would be happier if you all just killed yourselves. Well, I say everyone would be happier, chances are nobody would even notice. Apart from a general improvement in the calibre of attendees at demonstrations and a cessation of endless antisocial flyposting for your stupid Marxism 1938 2012 'conference' or some other impressive-sounding event which will actually amount to little more than some increasingly suicidal people listening to your local head honcho talking a load of old shit in a three-quarters empty friends' meeting house, nobody would notice or care that every last one of you was dead. 

You are the most worthless people on the planet, bar none. There are aborted foetuses who contribute more to human society than you. There are condoms full of sperm discarded in piss-soaked alleyways that contribute more to society than you. If you were replaced by a dictaphone set to repeat the word 'blah' over and over again until the battery dies it would be universally hailed as a vast improvement. If you were replaced by a pile of empty beer cans everyone would remark on how much more charming and charismatic you had become. But I'm not an unreasonable man. If you all kill yourselves now I will personally think about making slightly sure that hardly anyone pisses on your graves. That said, most right-thinking people would consider it a waste of good piss to do so anyway. 

I know anything that isn't a diktat from a dead guy with a beard is difficult to put across to you people, so I'll summarise: fuck off and die.


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## Blagsta (Apr 14, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> Dear SWP people, we have organised this protest to make our views heard on a particular issue. We have not organised this protest as an excuse for you lot to roll up with your megaphones and your placards and generally use the whole thing as an excuse for you to promote the staggeringly irrelevant shower of retrogressive one-note cretins you call a party.
> 
> If you or your laughable ideology had any popular support you wouldn't need to keep doing this, and the fact that you do should tell you that you're flogging a horse that's been dead for the better part of a century and that everyone would be happier if you all just killed yourselves. Well, I say everyone would be happier, chances are nobody would even notice. Apart from a general improvement in the calibre of attendees at demonstrations and a cessation of endless antisocial flyposting for your stupid Marxism 1938 2012 'conference' or some other impressive-sounding event which will actually amount to little more than some increasingly suicidal people listening to your local head honcho talking a load of old shit in a three-quarters empty friends' meeting house, nobody would notice or care that every last one of you was dead.
> 
> ...


You're a fucking knob.


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## Rogue_Leader (Apr 14, 2012)

Left-wing infighting? Surely not.

The right knows that they don't really have to do very much at all. Just wait until the left has torn itself apart and plough on through. And we all accept this situation, this false left-right paradigm, as normal because it gives us a comfortable place to sit with all our friends.


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## Blagsta (Apr 14, 2012)

Rogue_Leader said:


> Left-wing infighting? Surely not.
> 
> The right knows that they don't really have to do very much at all. Just wait until the left has torn itself apart and plough on through. And we all accept this situation, this false left-right paradigm, as normal because it gives us a comfortable place to sit with all our friends.


False left/right paradigm?


----------



## stuff_it (Apr 14, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Sorry, I was a bit out of order there. I just think the protesting days are over - It's not the 70's anymore. And when you say "travellers", do you mean actual travellers(ie what people call gypsies) or just muppets, coz in all honesty, I can't see many genuine travellers manning the barricades.


I assume they mean New Travellers rather than Travellers. 

(BTW you're meant to capitalise the T)

In a way the more oppressive the government becomes towards Travellers the more likely they will be to 'man the barricades' as you put it, same as the low waged, disabled people, young people, etc. We are, after all, in this together. 

I'd also prefer if you didn't call a large amount of people you don't know muppets, including myself. There are plenty of muppets in the protest scene but I'd prefer if you didn't try to equate things that (though not mutually exclusive) are not related - it's like saying everyone's a fed because all police are wankers, and everyone wanks.


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## Captain Hurrah (Apr 14, 2012)

Not this country, a little cliched with regard to what it was about protest-wise, but still relevant with regard to the differing class experience of things that can involve a society, in other contexts, even here in the UK.



> Last week, I had to be in Chicago; I ran into a "Resist the Draft" rally on the street. At first I smile: kids at it again, just a fad. Then I started getting sore. About how I had to go and they could stay out. Cosco went in and he was the straightest guy I ever knew. My Negro buddy didn't like the war, but he went too. I just stood there and got sore at those rich kids telling people to "resist the draft." What about us poor people? For every guy who resists the draft one of us gotta go and he gets sent out into the boonies to get his backside shot at. One of their signs read "We've Already Given Enough." And I thought, "What have they given?"
> 
> Working-Class War: American Combat Soldiers and Vietnam


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## Rogue_Leader (Apr 14, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> False left/right paradigm?


 
Yep. I'm prepared to defend that statement.

While there are genuine differences between what we call 'left wing' and what we call 'right wing', in modern mainstream politics the differences are largely cosmetic. It's sectarianism. We're far too busy fighting over our differences to acknowledge our similarities. Policy has become depolarised. If we take it that the main goal of left-wing politics in Britain is to keep public assets in the public domain, the left is losing that battle. In fact, in the mainstream, the left isn't even fighting it any more. Our politicians are almost universally in favour of more privatisation, more deregulation. Out country is being sold from under us and we're concerned about trivialities.

I'm also amazed that more isn't made of what happened to Berlusconi and Papandreou: as soon as they decided to consult their people on austerity measures, they were out, replaced by neo-fascists. These are concerns for both the left and the right, or that proportion of both who aren't complete fucking wingnuts.

Racism, bigotry, idiocy - they're all things that are characteristic of the other side, never our problem. But imperialism and subjugation exist on both sides. For every Hitler, there's a Stalin. For every Frederik de Clerc, there's a Pol Pot.


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## Captain Hurrah (Apr 14, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> You're a fucking knob.


 
Workfare is shit only if it's graduates who have to do it.


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## Rogue_Leader (Apr 14, 2012)

Oops. Wrong button.


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## Captain Hurrah (Apr 14, 2012)

Rogue_Leader said:


> Pol Pot.


 
Wasn't a racist, unless you're into Ben Kiernan.


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## Frances Lengel (Apr 14, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> I assume they mean New Travellers rather than Travellers.
> 
> (BTW you're meant to capitalise the T)
> 
> ...


 

All pillarboxes are red & we've all had a tug.


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

Rogue_Leader said:


> bigotry, idiocy - they're all things that are characteristic of the other side, never our problem.


 
Absolutely, those bigotted idiots!


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## discokermit (Apr 14, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> You are the most worthless people on the planet, bar none. There are aborted foetuses who contribute more to human society than you. There are condoms full of sperm discarded in piss-soaked alleyways that contribute more to society than you. If you were replaced by a dictaphone set to repeat the word 'blah' over and over again until the battery dies it would be universally hailed as a vast improvement. If you were replaced by a pile of empty beer cans everyone would remark on how much more charming and charismatic you had become. But I'm not an unreasonable man. If you all kill yourselves now I will personally think about making slightly sure that hardly anyone pisses on your graves. That said, most right-thinking people would consider it a waste of good piss to do so anyway.


cheers frank. it's nice to know that the victimisations for trying to help fellow workmates add up to nowt. or the time you risked your life to stop a woman being trampled by a police horse was worthless. or the hours you put in organising resistance to the poll tax, or the hours you put in taking collections round pubs, social events,your own workplace and others in support of striking workers, all worthless.

it's also good to know that my friend, also named frank, wasted an eighty year life trying to organise resistance. the years he put in as an engineering shop steward and some as a labour councillor worthless. or the time he stole food for the greek partisans just after the war. or the time he openly disobeyed an order leading to a small scale army revolt, over being ordered to shoot jewish refugees entering palestine. nice to know he was deemed worth less than an aborted foetus by you, frank. you must have lead a very full and productive life in comparison.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2012)

Rogue_Leader said:


> Left-wing infighting? Surely not.
> 
> The right knows that they don't really have to do very much at all. Just wait until the left has torn itself apart and plough on through. And we all accept this situation, this false left-right paradigm, as normal because it gives us a comfortable place to sit with all our friends.


 

the right is not united. It is as riven with infighting and backstabbery and nonce scandals


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

The answer is staring you in the face. Protests are always full of nerds with socialist worker and a wind powered rave tricycle because they are full of wankers!

Some wanker will come and attack me for this and probably accuse me of something but just remember all of the time when this is happening to read their words in the whiny posh south east accent that they shout in on 'demos'


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## Libertad (Apr 14, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> I misread the banner as 'Afterparty'. There should be one of those, like the monster raving loonies. We should have an After Party in politics....


 
We will hopefully, though I see no reason why we shouldn't party whilst we revolt. [/Emma Goldman]


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## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2012)

Also, re: jugglers, tin crew, etc

If I do have to get out of my chair to go and make a gesture/presence felt then I sure as fuck would like some hilarity and good natured tone to the event. Kids getting face paint. Women dressed in dinner ladies outfits giving out tea from comically oversized teapots. Some cunt with a portable sound system banging out tunes.

Not vuvuzellas though. The b flat blat is a modern scourge and should be banned.


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## discokermit (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> The answer is staring you in the face. Protests are always full of nerds with socialist worker and a wind powered rave tricycle because they are full of wankers!
> 
> Some wanker will come and attack me for this and probably accuse me of something but just remember all of the time when this is happening to read their words in the whiny posh south east accent that they shout in on 'demos'


you're an ignorant prick. you're not worth engaging with. and your jokes are proper shit, by the way.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> The answer is staring you in the face. Protests are always full of nerds with socialist worker and a wind powered rave tricycle because they are full of wankers!
> 
> Some wanker will come and attack me for this and probably accuse me of something but just remember all of the time when this is happening to read their words in the whiny posh south east accent that they shout in on 'demos'


 
And I thought I was being an arsehole.


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

discokermit said:


> you're an ignorant prick. you're not worth engaging with. and your jokes are proper shit, by the way.


 
in a bucks accent


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## stuff_it (Apr 14, 2012)

Get a room you two. No really, leave the rest of us alone and get a room.


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## discokermit (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> in a bucks accent


whatevs.


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## Frances Lengel (Apr 14, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> the right is not united. It is as riven with infighting and backstabbery and nonce scandals


 

They are. VNN's gone right off the boil these days, I used to read that like it was a soap when Joe owen's was sharing his paranoid slaverings, and that andy & the embittered Charlie boy. Gone shit now though, just bev talkin to herself.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2012)

discokermit said:


> cheers frank. it's nice to know that the victimisations for trying to help fellow workmates add up to nowt. or the time you risked your life to stop a woman being trampled by a police horse was worthless. or the hours you put in organising resistance to the poll tax, or the hours you put in taking collections round pubs, social events,your own workplace and others in support of striking workers, all worthless.
> 
> it's also good to know that my friend, also named frank, wasted an eighty year life trying to organise resistance. the years he put in as an engineering shop steward and some as a labour councillor worthless. or the time he stole food for the greek partisans just after the war. or the time he openly disobeyed an order leading to a small scale army revolt, over being ordered to shoot jewish refugees entering palestine. nice to know he was deemed worth less than an aborted foetus by you, frank. you must have lead a very full and productive life in comparison.


 
If this bloke is really the modern day Lord Byron you say he is, why is he in an organisation whose modus operandi revolves around hijacking everyone else's campaigns for the sake of their own publicity? Strange also that someone who went to such lengths to protect jews should have any time for a bunch of anti-semites.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 14, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> Dear SWP people, we have organised this protest to make our views heard on a particular issue. We have not organised this protest as an excuse for you lot to roll up with your megaphones and your placards and generally use the whole thing as an excuse for you to promote the staggeringly irrelevant shower of retrogressive one-note cretins you call a party.
> 
> If you or your laughable ideology had any popular support you wouldn't need to keep doing this, and the fact that you do should tell you that you're flogging a horse that's been dead for the better part of a century and that everyone would be happier if you all just killed yourselves. Well, I say everyone would be happier, chances are nobody would even notice. Apart from a general improvement in the calibre of attendees at demonstrations and a cessation of endless antisocial flyposting for your stupid Marxism 1938 2012 'conference' or some other impressive-sounding event which will actually amount to little more than some increasingly suicidal people listening to your local head honcho talking a load of old shit in a three-quarters empty friends' meeting house, nobody would notice or care that every last one of you was dead.
> 
> ...


Pretty much every SWP member is worth more - politically and socially -  than you if you believe this juvenile tripe.


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## Blagsta (Apr 14, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> If this bloke is really the modern day Lord Byron you say he is, why is he in an organisation whose modus operandi revolves around hijacking everyone else's campaigns for the sake of their own publicity? Strange also that someone who went to such lengths to protect jews should have any time for a bunch of anti-semites.



You're a prick.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2012)

I suppose swappies might not be _the _most worthless people in the world. There's still rugby fans to consider after all.

Lots of them are probably intelligent people and experienced campaigners with a lot to contribute. I just wish they'd contribute for the sake of contributing rather than for the sake of their party.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> You're a prick.


 
Duly noted.


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## Blagsta (Apr 14, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> I suppose swappies might not be _the _most worthless people in the world. There's still rugby fans to consider after all.
> 
> Lots of them are probably intelligent people and experienced campaigners with a lot to contribute. I just wish they'd contribute for the sake of contributing rather than for the sake of their party.


Pathetic. What the fuck do you contribute, beyond teenage sectarianism?


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

You'll never get anywhere calling people pricks, worthless, juvenile etc

If I wanted people to come to my side and they started insulting me I wouldn't insult them back I'd get them to tell me why they didn't like me and try to use that


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## Blagsta (Apr 14, 2012)

I don't want spooky frank on my side.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> You'll never get anywhere calling people pricks, worthless, juvenile etc
> 
> If I wanted people to come to my side and they started insulting me I wouldn't insult them back I'd get them to tell me why they didn't like me and try to use that


 

I don't do evangelism


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## discokermit (Apr 14, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> If this bloke is really the modern day Lord Byron you say he is, why is he in an organisation whose modus operandi revolves around hijacking everyone else's campaigns for the sake of their own publicity? Strange also that someone who went to such lengths to protect jews should have any time for a bunch of anti-semites.


he joined the swp because he believed in working class revolution and believed that was the way to attain it, through a leninist paty. actually, he joined the ilp in the thirties, then joined the workers international league as a fifteen year old. he got beaten up by stalinists and his workplace was leafletted by communist party members denouncing him and his brother for being "fascist spies", after he organised an anti war meeting in 1939.
the wil joined the rcp, the rcp went into the labour party. frank was in the healy faction. frank drifted away a little into his labour councillor and shop steward work. he joined the swp (then the international socialists), in 1970, when they had lots of workplace branches organising leading militants in the engineering industry, including longbridge, where he worked.

and he was no byron. he was a solid realist. certainly no romantic. his dad had been a skilled metalworker, member of the communist party and workplace convenor. franks brothers were also active trade unionists and his family has been at the core of working class politics in the black country for generations.

why not get a copy of his book, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Track-Frank-Henderson/dp/1905192460 , and see what a cunt you've made of yourself?


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## Mr.Bishie (Apr 14, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> i always think old ladies are going to be the revolutionary vanguard. i'm serious btw, some of them are probably a lot more militant than the average anarchist. you should talk to some of them.


 
The Lewes four arrested last year outside of Boots, combined age 211


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> Pathetic. What the fuck do you contribute, beyond teenage sectarianism?


 
I mostly just make the tea for proper activists like your good self.


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## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

So there you have it....


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## Rogue_Leader (Apr 14, 2012)

Surprised no-one's done this yet.


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## yield (Apr 14, 2012)

Rogue_Leader said:


> Surprised no-one's done this yet.


It's been done many many times.

That would be an ecumenical matter.


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## frogwoman (Apr 14, 2012)

discokermit said:


> cheers frank. it's nice to know that the victimisations for trying to help fellow workmates add up to nowt. or the time you risked your life to stop a woman being trampled by a police horse was worthless. or the hours you put in organising resistance to the poll tax, or the hours you put in taking collections round pubs, social events,your own workplace and others in support of striking workers, all worthless.
> 
> it's also good to know that my friend, also named frank, wasted an eighty year life trying to organise resistance. the years he put in as an engineering shop steward and some as a labour councillor worthless. or the time he stole food for the greek partisans just after the war. or the time he openly disobeyed an order leading to a small scale army revolt, over being ordered to shoot jewish refugees entering palestine. nice to know he was deemed worth less than an aborted foetus by you, frank. you must have lead a very full and productive life in comparison.


 
well said.


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## frogwoman (Apr 14, 2012)

i get sick of the juvenile trot bashing based on selling papers and looking "nerdy" (i mean wtf?)


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

Rogue_Leader said:


> Surprised no-one's done this yet.




I find it kind of depressing how accurate that portrayal of political meetings is considering it was decades ago by a bunch of posh boys who had no involvement in any of it


----------



## discokermit (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I find it kind of depressing how accurate that portrayal of political meetings is considering it was decades ago by a bunch of posh boys who had no involvement in any of it


no it isn't.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

discokermit said:


> no it isn't.


 
you have a real way with words


----------



## discokermit (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> you have a real way with words


you have a real way with bullshit.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

discokermit said:


> you have a real way with bullshit.


 
southeast accent


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2012)

discokermit said:


> why not get a copy of his book, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Track-Frank-Henderson/dp/1905192460 , and see what a cunt you've made of yourself?


 
I'm amazed he had time to write it, but then I suppose Moses found a spare weekend to jot down the Torah on the back of a fag packet and he was nearly as awesome as this Henderson bloke.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2012)

discokermit said:


> no it isn't.


 
It is though.


----------



## discokermit (Apr 14, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm amazed he had time to write it, but then I suppose Moses found a spare weekend to jot down the Torah on the back of a fag packet and he was nearly as awesome as this Henderson bloke.


wanker.


----------



## discokermit (Apr 14, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> It is though.


swp, maybe three splits in fifty odd years. the people leaving rarely ever spoken of again. militant, one split.

even if you come into contact with those who split, sly coded digs are the order of the day. you know fuck all, why not just stop making yourself look an even bigger dick.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 14, 2012)

see i really dont get this. i've got people i know who've been suspended for their involvement in trade union activity from their work. there are people who've been sacked or who've been expelled from trade unions for upsetting management and the union hierarchy too much. 

there are people in the cwi in pakistan who've been executed for organising demos and protests by the taliban, and others in china and kazakhstan who've been sent into exile for the work they've done in organising trade unions and workers.

i'm pretty sure the swp have got a similar history, in fact afaik they've got members in zimbabwe who were imprisoned.

it's utter bullshit to say that all that stuff is worthless even if you believe in a different ideology. it's not.


----------



## yield (Apr 14, 2012)

discokermit said:


> you know fuck all, why not just stop making yourself look an even bigger dick.


He's just a kid. He'll learn.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

_you know fuck all, why not just stop making yourself look an even bigger dick._


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

anger is like flatulence


----------



## discokermit (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> southeast accent


black country born, black country bred,
strong in the arm, weak in the yed.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 14, 2012)

even worse!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 14, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> False left/right paradigm?


I suspect he means "false in terms of the representation of parliamentary party politics". Let's face it, as long as the media continue to portray Labour, the Tories and Lib-Dems as being fundamentally different, even though they're as alike as the proverbial peas in a pod, there'll be a "false right/keft paradigm".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 14, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> the right is not united. It is as riven with infighting and backstabbery and nonce scandals


 
And flagellation. Don't forget the fladge.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 14, 2012)

Pissed nihilism on the internet - who would have thought it?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 14, 2012)

discokermit said:


> black country born, black country bred,
> strong in the arm, weak in the yed.


Tiny of cock and shite in bed... So the saying goes


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> You'll never get anywhere calling people pricks, worthless, juvenile etc
> 
> If I wanted people to come to my side and they started insulting me I wouldn't insult them back I'd get them to tell me why they didn't like me and try to use that


You're new to this Internet lark aren't you cock monkey.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 14, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> People like this guy keep people away from protests as well, especially since they often have posh voices. A lot of people hear some posh guy braying through a megaphone against something and it could be black people or bankers for all the difference it makes, it's just posh people who couldn't hack it in the posh world and can get away with it in the normal world


So who where you before son...

And no I don't do protests or mega phones. Walking from a to b never solved a damn thing...


----------



## rekil (Apr 14, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> see i really dont get this. i've got people i know who've been suspended for their involvement in trade union activity from their work. there are people who've been sacked or who've been expelled from trade unions for upsetting management and the union hierarchy too much.
> 
> there are people in the cwi in pakistan who've been executed for organising demos and protests by the taliban, and others in china and kazakhstan who've been sent into exile for the work they've done in organising trade unions and workers.
> 
> ...


Was just reading about Bangladeshi garment union organizer Aminul Islam whose body was found last week. He'd been tortured and murdered. If no such thing exists elsewhere I was wondering about the feasability of a thread that would keep track of murdered protestors, antifascists, labour organizers etc. Or would it be a bit morbid.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 14, 2012)

Well, even if it doesn't help us work out how to get more "normals" at demos this thread has at least taught us that biggus dickus and spooky frank are a pair of daft cunts, who I suspect wouldn't be so "brave" and offensive if they weren't speaking from behind a keyboard.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 15, 2012)

Rogue_Leader said:


> Yes, they did. Most of those stupid 'review of the year' type things that sprout in the TV schedules like fungus in the week between Christmas and New Year didn't even mention Occupy.


 
It would be laughable if it wasn't so scary.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Well, even if it doesn't help us work out how to get more "normals" at demos this thread has at least taught us that biggus dickus and spooky frank are a pair of daft cunts, who I suspect wouldn't be so "brave" and offensive if they weren't speaking from behind a keyboard.


 
Insults and threats

If I saw you in the street on one of your protests I wouldn't be brave or offensive I'd just walk past you and think 'what a bunch of tools' like most of the population of Earth do


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> even worse!


 
but you've got to admit it does fuck up your pet theory about accents.


----------



## newbie (Apr 15, 2012)

Have y'all forgotten the Countryside Alliance? Their demos, both the myriad of small ones and the big, 400,000 one was 'ordinary' people, many of whom probably enjoy the Daily Mail. Not a juggler, a rinkydink or anyone wearing a blacknred hooped jumper in sight.
.
They were attacked by the police, with batons, and their overall campaign was brushed aside.


----------



## Rogue_Leader (Apr 15, 2012)

newbie said:


> Have y'all forgotten the Countryside Alliance? Their demos, both the myriad of small ones and the big, 400,000 one was 'ordinary' people, many of whom probably enjoy the Daily Mail. Not a juggler, a rinkydink or anyone wearing a blacknred hooped jumper in sight.
> .
> They were attacked by the police, with batons, and their overall campaign was brushed aside.


 
That's a very good point. While I'd be loathe to describe the paddlers in the shallow end of the gene pool that constitute the membership of the Cuntryside Alliance as 'ordinary', farmers, landowners and the rural wealthy are usually natural allies of the police. If they're going to get kettled and shielded, who isn't?


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Apr 15, 2012)

newbie said:


> Have y'all forgotten the Countryside Alliance? Their demos, both the myriad of small ones and the big, 400,000 one was 'ordinary' people, many of whom probably enjoy the Daily Mail. Not a juggler, a rinkydink or anyone wearing a blacknred hooped jumper in sight.
> .
> They were attacked by the police, with batons, and their overall campaign was brushed aside.


Tbf that's because they made anyone look reasonable and of course they became ukip in any case...


----------



## newbie (Apr 15, 2012)

Those who went on the demos were "farmers, landowners and the rural wealthy".  Right, course they were.

You're playing the same game, attempting to characterise the many by defining the few.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

Countryside Alliance and English Defence League both had far less Tarquins than Occupy and that shite.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> Tbf that's because they made anyone look reasonable and of course they became ukip in any case...


Countryside alliance march 2002 (formed 1997)
UKIP founded 1992

The former was made of people and groups with many and no political affiliations but the CA had no affiliation itself, they did not become UKIP.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Insults and threats
> 
> If I saw you in the street on one of your protests I wouldn't be brave or offensive I'd just walk past you and think 'what a bunch of tools' like most of the population of Earth do


 
Threats? Grow up.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

your name was Deborah, Deborah


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> your name was Deborah, Deborah


wrong song, you thick cunt.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

discokermit said:


> wrong song, you thick cunt.


 
it never suited ya.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> your name was Deborah, Deborah


 
 I'm struggling to see how disco2000 relates to this.

Despite the fact that you're too stupid to get your cryptic references to the middle class right, I do "get" what you're trying to say. I've been accused of many things in my time  - sometimes fairly - but being middle class isn't one of them.

I took her to the supermarket...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> Tiny of cock and shite in bed... So the saying goes


 
I thought it was
"black country born, incestuously inbred,
strong in the arm, weak in the yed,
extra digits, pointy-shaped skull,
Likes Judas Priest and Jethro Tull."


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> see i really dont get this. i've got people i know who've been suspended for their involvement in trade union activity from their work. there are people who've been sacked or who've been expelled from trade unions for upsetting management and the union hierarchy too much.
> 
> there are people in the cwi in pakistan who've been executed for organising demos and protests by the taliban, and others in china and kazakhstan who've been sent into exile for the work they've done in organising trade unions and workers.
> 
> ...


 
TBF, 95% of the time, the rank and file Swappies are good people. Where there are objections to the social workers it's usually about their dogma or the way that the hierarchy seems to enjoy getting involved in a cause, then destroying it once they've milked it for it's membership and paper sales potential.


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I thought it was
> "black country born, incestuously inbred,
> strong in the arm, weak in the yed,
> extra digits, pointy-shaped skull,
> Likes Judas Priest and Jethro Tull."


jethro tull aren't black country. slade are but your rhyme will need re working.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Insults and threats
> 
> If I saw you in the street on one of your protests I wouldn't be brave or offensive I'd just walk past you and think 'what a bunch of tools' like most of the population of Earth do


 
That'd be easier than having to look beyond the surface of the situation.

Oh, and nice one, speaking for "most of the population of earth". You can always tell that someone's opinion is a bag of arse when they pull some totally unquantified shit like that out of their rectum.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

discokermit said:


> jethro tull aren't black country. slade are but your rhyme will need re working.


 
Out of all the bands of the last 50 years, no county or region ever wants to claim ownership of the Tull.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

_Likes Judas Priest and the nightingull(s)._


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> the way that the hierarchy seems to enjoy getting involved in a cause, then destroying it once they've milked it for it's membership and paper sales potential.


not exactly. more like abandon it for something else that has a greater membership/paper sales potential. our branch wrote a piece on this for the pre conference bulletin, it was the beginning of the end.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

newbie said:


> Have y'all forgotten the Countryside Alliance? Their demos, both the myriad of small ones and the big, 400,000 one was 'ordinary' people, many of whom probably enjoy the Daily Mail. Not a juggler, a rinkydink or anyone wearing a blacknred hooped jumper in sight.
> .
> They were attacked by the police, with batons, and their overall campaign was brushed aside.


 
Why were they attacked (in a single instance, let's not forget)? Could it have been because under the law of the time their protest was illegal? Perhaps because they were disobeying police instructions? Maybe even because they were attempting to access Parliament _en masse_? A swallow doesn't make a spring.
Jugglers, rinkydink and even people in red and black hooped jumpers get batoned for a lot less at protests.


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> _Likes Judas Priest and the nightingull(s)._


 nearer!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

discokermit said:


> not exactly. more like abandon it for something else that has a greater membership/paper sales potential. our branch wrote a piece on this for the pre conference bulletin, it was the beginning of the end.


 
They cast  you into the outermost darkness! Your names were stricken from the sacred membership register, and your offspring anathematised unto the seventh generation!


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> They cast you into the outermost darkness! Your names were stricken from the sacred membership register, and your offspring anathematised unto the seventh generation!


pretty much. musta been the only people ever kicked out for not paying their subs!

turned out that "the wilderness" wasn't too bad a place and you didn't have to get up at four on a friday morning to sell papers outside the post office.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm struggling to see how disco2000 relates to this.
> 
> Despite the fact that you're too stupid to get your cryptic references to the middle class right, I do "get" what you're trying to say. I've been accused of many things in my time - sometimes fairly - but being middle class isn't one of them.
> 
> I took her to the supermarket...


 
I think it is just because I was drunk and was listening to that song at the time to be honest lol

There isn't even anything wrong with being middle class or even upper class. It's like races it isn't actually real, middle class shouldn't be an insult, I really hate that, i think there are about 1200 adjectives that describe why I'm a twat, be more imaginitive!


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> i think there are about 1200 adjectives that describe why I'm a twat,


at least. you thick, self pwning cunt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Threats? Grow up.


 
He's not making threats, he's claiming that "most of the population of earth" think as he does. Real "salt of the earth" type, is biggus dickus.

Of course, when I say "salt of the earth", I don't mean it in the colloquial sense, I mean it literally, and we all know how well salt and earth go together...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> your name was Deborah, Deborah


 
Your name is Lola.
L-o-l-a, Lola.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> He's not making threats, he's claiming that "most of the population of earth" think as he does. Real "salt of the earth" type, is biggus dickus.
> 
> Of course, when I say "salt of the earth", I don't mean it in the colloquial sense, I mean it literally, and we all know how well salt and earth go together...


 
I am a person though and I do have an opinion and it is just as important as your opinion on a BBS.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I think it is just because I was drunk and was listening to that song at the time to be honest lol
> 
> There isn't even anything wrong with being middle class or even upper class. It's like races it isn't actually real, middle class shouldn't be an insult, I really hate that, i think there are about 1200 adjectives that describe why I'm a twat, be more imaginitive!


 
That's bollocks though isn't it? Class is very real - it can be demonstrated. It's not chavs vs Tarquins mind you.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I am a person though and I do have an opinion and it is just as important as your opinion on a BBS.


 
Not really. Informed opinions carry more weight than the ramblings of an idiot.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> He's not making threats, he's claiming that "most of the population of earth" think as he does. Real "salt of the earth" type, is biggus dickus.
> 
> Of course, when I say "salt of the earth", I don't mean it in the colloquial sense, I mean it literally, and we all know how well salt and earth go together...


 
He was trying to claim, in true wining internet right winger style, that I was threatening him when I was pointing out that he and Spooky Frank wouldn't dare to be so offensive in real life.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I am a person though and I do have an opinion and it is just as important as your opinion on a BBS.


 
You're full of insight, aren't you?
Yes, indeed you are a person. Being a person doesn't qualify you to speak for most of the earth's population though, does it? And yet that's what you decided you were qualified to do. 
Also, an opinion is valid in proportion to how well you can support and substantiate it. If you can't do that, then your opinion doesn't have the validity that an opinion that can be substantiated and supported does. That's blatantly obvious.

So, can you substantiate your claim that your opinion is shared by "most of the population of the earth"? Of course you can't, because you were talking shite and said something that you thought added to the validity of your "point", but actually made you look like a twat.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> He was trying to claim, in true wining internet right winger style, that I was threatening him when I was pointing out that he and Spooky Frank wouldn't dare to be so offensive in real life.


 
In which case he's not just a twat, but a stupid one.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Not really. Informed opinions carry more weight than the ramblings of an idiot.


Wibble?

WIBBLE?


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> That's bollocks though isn't it? Class is very real - it can be demonstrated. It's not chavs vs Tarquins mind you.


 
Ok well class is real but the way it is framed is bollocks. My parents were teachers and they worked 10 hours a day for 40 years and educated the fuck out of me and my brother and then I am meant to feel guilty about that. I work hard as well in my very middle class university job and yet middle class is used as an insult, I even used to feel guilty about the fact that I knew things because my parents educated me. Sorry I think I'm just off on one, it does wind me up though, it's shite for everyone, I think most people are stuck in the middle with a varying amount of money or connections


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Ok well class is real but the way it is framed is bollocks. My parents were teachers and they worked 10 hours a day for 40 years and educated the fuck out of me and my brother and then I am meant to feel guilty about that. I work hard as well in my very middle class university job and yet middle class is used as an insult, I even used to feel guilty about the fact that I knew things because my parents educated me. Sorry I think I'm just off on one, it does wind me up though, it's shite for everyone, I think most people are stuck in the middle with a varying amount of money or connections


 
But you're the one who was trying to insult people by claiming they were middle class, nobody else. Silly boy.


----------



## love detective (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> My parents were teachers and they worked 10 hours a day for 40 years and educated the fuck out of me and my brother and then I am meant to feel guilty about that.


 
going on the quality of the contributions that you manage on here, then yes, you should feel guilty


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> But you're the one who was trying to insult people by claiming they were middle class, nobody else. Silly boy.


 
Yes but I am a cunt


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

love detective said:


> going on the quality of the contributions that you manage on here, then yes, you should feel guilty


 
Yes because this is the only thing i do, argue and respond to people called 'love detective' and 'spikey norman' is all i do


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Ok well class is real but the way it is framed is bollocks. My parents were teachers and they worked 10 hours a day for 40 years and educated the fuck out of me and my brother and then I am meant to feel guilty about that. I work hard as well in my very middle class university job and yet middle class is used as an insult, I even used to feel guilty about the fact that I knew things because my parents educated me. Sorry I think I'm just off on one, it does wind me up though, it's shite for everyone, I think most people are stuck in the middle with a varying amount of money or connections


you should feel guilty, all that education and you're still clueless.

"most people" aren't you.


----------



## love detective (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Yes because this is the only thing i do, argue and respond to people called 'love detective' and 'spikey norman' is all i do


 
how else do you expect to be judged by others on here, other than what you write on here?


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

discokermit said:


> you should feel guilty, all that education and you're still clueless.
> 
> "most people" aren't you.


 
dissing the rave tricycle


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

love detective said:


> how else do you expect to be judged by others on here, other than what you write on here?


he's just making whimpering noises now. i almost feel sorry for him, it's so pathetic.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

i'm being kettled


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

love detective said:


> how else do you expect to be judged by others on here, other than what you write on here?


 
all i want is approval


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

It's becoming increasingly clear that all you want is attention.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

what do i do now? 
are we going under?
what did i do wrong?
i thought we had it sorted?


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> what do i do now?
> are we going under?
> what did i do wrong?
> i thought we had it sorted?


go back to making silly jokes in general. you're out of your depth here.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

So no one told you life was gonna be this way
Your jobs a joke, you're broke, your love life's D.O.A.

It's like you're always stuck in second gear
And it hasn't been your day, your week, your month,
or even your year
but..

I'll be there for you
When the rain starts to pour
I'll be there for you
Like I've been there before
I'll be there for you
'Cuz you're there for me too...

You're still in bed at ten
And work began at eight
You've burned your breakfast
So far... things are goin' great

Your mother warned you there'd be days like these
Oh but she didn't tell you when the world has brought
You down to your knees that...

I'll be there for you
When the rain starts to pour
I'll be there for you
Like I've been there before
I'll be there for you
'Cuz you're there for me too...


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

discokermit said:


> go back to making silly jokes in general. you're out of your depth here.


 
I really am not out of my depth. I could just agree with you and you'd love it. I don't think it is possible to be out of my depth on here to be honest. Rave powered tricycle, maybe you are out of your depth disco kermit


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Your parents must be so proud, bet they're glad to see all that education hasn't gone to waste.

I was dragged up, left school at 15. Yet I'm still more articulate and better informed than you. So in your case being middle class should be a source of shame - simply because despite all those advantages you're clearly still a bit of a failure.


----------



## love detective (Apr 15, 2012)

middle class academia


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm educated middle class - respect me, stupid proles!


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

This would be a win except that the thread was actually about why your demos always make you look like twats and why hardly anyone turns up to your stupid fucking protests

You can't really win an argument with me because at the end of the day however much you win the argument by you are still a cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> This would be a win except that the thread was actually about why your demos always make you look like twats and why hardly anyone turns up to your stupid fucking protests
> 
> You can't really win an argument with me because at the end of the day however much you win the argument by you are still a cunt.


an argument's not a race; you don't win an argument by a country mile, you either win it or you don't.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm educated middle class - respect me, stupid proles!


 
You could respect the fact that I work hard for a living but I doubt it because you seem like an idiot


----------



## love detective (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> You can't really win an argument with me because at the end of the day however much you win the argument by you are still a cunt.


you've a poor grasp of logic for someone so educated haven't you - a cunt whose won an argument has won an argument - being a cunt doesn't change the essential nature of winning an argument

in the morning we'll be cunts who have won the argument, you'll just be a cunt whose lost one


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> an argument's not a race; you don't win an argument by a country mile, you either win it or you don't.


 
This is more like trying to win an earthquake.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2012)

You're pulling out all the strawmen here, 'biggus'


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I don't mean to be isolated and sit back, I mean that it's pointless going to ask City of London or whatever to change their ways. There isn't a reason for them to change at the moment and noone has come up with a good reason for them to change. I mean people tend to say either the threat of violence or some bullshit moral reason but neither of them are appealing. It's all so vague, Occupy hopefully will be the end of it because they are planning to keep doing it and they don't even ask for anything they just sit about so let them sit about if they can afford it....


are you sure you're highly educated? or, i suppose you can be highly educated and thick as pigshit which is more how you appear here.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

steph said:


> You're pulling out all the strawmen here, 'biggus'


 
The Nazis, that is what you are like


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> This is more like trying to win an earthquake.


which is of course possible, if you're the earth.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> The Nazis, that is what you are like


if you work in a university it's as a test subject in a failure study


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> are you sure you're highly educated? or, i suppose you can be highly educated and thick as pigshit which is more how you appear here.


 
I'm not highly educated at all that was my whole point! My parents are just normal people who worked really hard like normal people do and you go on about your whole class shit but the government has been giving eveyone free school and hospital for about 50 years, what are you protesting about? you know the arab spring and that was against secret police and corruption they weren't asking for better free hospitals


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Ok well class is real but the way it is framed is bollocks. My parents were teachers and they worked 10 hours a day for 40 years and educated the fuck out of me and my brother and then I am meant to feel guilty about that. I work hard as well in my very middle class university job and yet middle class is used as an insult, I even used to feel guilty about the fact that I knew things because my parents educated me. Sorry I think I'm just off on one, it does wind me up though, it's shite for everyone, I think most people are stuck in the middle with a varying amount of money or connections


what does this university job consist of? because as far as i can see you're more likely non-academic staff than academic, somewhere in estates would be my guess.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what does this university job consist of? because as far as i can see you're more likely non-academic staff than academic, somewhere in estates would be my guess.


 
Basically I find out utter snobs and just laugh at their pretensiousness


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Basically I find out utter snobs and just laugh at their pretensiousness


oh, you're in the registry then, most likely admissions


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 15, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> At every demo in New York:


 
We were in New York on holiday this week and I swear we sat next to the one on the left on the Metro! I'm sure it was her - I noticed her because she had 'Granny Peace Brigade' badges on.


----------



## newbie (Apr 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why were they attacked (in a single instance, let's not forget)? Could it have been because under the law of the time their protest was illegal? Perhaps because they were disobeying police instructions? Maybe even because they were attempting to access Parliament _en masse_? A swallow doesn't make a spring.
> Jugglers, rinkydink and even people in red and black hooped jumpers get batoned for a lot less at protests.


yes, all of that. 

Doesn't change that it happened, nor that their campaign failed in just the way that other campaigns that could also inspire hundreds of thousands to demonstrate- against the invasion, against cuts, against the bomb- also look like failures. The only other major demo I can think of where the usual suspects were absent was the Mary Whitehouse one.  That was much smaller.  It also failed.

I suppose the demonstration in support of the social movement against the polltax could be called a success: the Daily Mail didn't like it, so chalk up one for the rednblack hoops.  Are there any other example of mass demonstrations actually helping win a campaign?


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> oh, you're in the registry then, most likely admissions


 
I teach Maths at Oxbridge


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I teach Maths at Oxbridge


i very much doubt that.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

middle class dementia


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I'm not highly educated at all that was my whole point! My parents are just normal people who worked really hard like normal people do and you go on about your whole class shit but the government has been giving eveyone free school and hospital for about 50 years, what are you protesting about? you know the arab spring and that was against secret police and corruption they weren't asking for better free hospitals


 

What are you slavering about with all this class bullshit? Way I see it, if a person's brought up working class, then end up getting a job like a teacher, then they're still working class. No one's asking you to feel guilty coz your parents are/were teachers.

Mind you hospitals aren't free, their paid for through tax & NI.

And it's not just "shite for everyone", most people aren't "stuck in the middle with varying amounts of money or connections", the lower down the social scale (or whatever you want to call it), the worse it gets.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> middle class dementia


 
More like banned returner.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> This would be a win except that the thread was actually about why your demos always make you look like twats and why hardly anyone turns up to your stupid fucking protests
> 
> You can't really win an argument with me because at the end of the day however much you win the argument by you are still a cunt.


 
My demos? Which ones did you have in mind?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> You could respect the fact that I work hard for a living but I doubt it because you seem like an idiot


 
Brilliant!


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

the lower down the social scale the worse it gets must surely be the most insightful thing ever written


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I'm not highly educated at all that was my whole point! My parents are just normal people who worked really hard like normal people do and you go on about your whole class shit but the government has been giving eveyone free school and hospital for about 50 years, what are you protesting about? you know the arab spring and that was against secret police and corruption they weren't asking for better free hospitals


 
I'm pretty sure you said your parents worked hard to educate you "like fuck".

You thick cunt.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm pretty sure you said your parents worked hard to educate you "like fuck".
> 
> You thick cunt.


 
This is a very interesting point, I must admit that I underestimated you on first impressions but sometimes you come out with things like this which really make me feel like a bit stupid for not giving your thoughts consideration


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> This is a very interesting point, I must admit that I underestimated you on first impressions but sometimes you come out with things like this which really make me feel like a bit stupid for not giving your thoughts consideration


 
Well you were either "educated like fuck" (your words not mine) or you weren't. Which is it?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> the lower down the social scale the worse it gets must surely be the most insightful thing ever written


 

Glad you think so


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

steph said:


> More like banned returner.


 
flush, cry, flush, repeat


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

What exactly are you trying to achieve on here biggus? Do you have a point?


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Well you were either "educated like fuck" (your words not mine) or you weren't. Which is it?


 
Socrates philosophies and hypotheses can't define how I be droppin these mockeries I lyrically perform armed robbery, flee with the lottery possibly they spotted me?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Socrates philosophies and hypotheses can't define how I be droppin these mockeries I lyrically perform armed robbery, flee with the lottery possibly they spotted me?


 
Cloud?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Socrates philosophies and hypotheses can't define how I be droppin these mockeries I lyrically perform armed robbery, flee with the lottery possibly they spotted me?


With lyrical skills like those you should make every effort to retain your day job


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2012)

And borrowed - Wu-Tang.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Socrates philosophies and hypotheses can't define how I be droppin these mockeries I lyrically perform armed robbery, flee with the lottery possibly they spotted me?


Come on big nose, why bother doing all this shit _yet again? _


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> With lyrical skills like those you should make every effort to retain your day job


 
that was probably the most worth money bit of lyrics ever


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 15, 2012)

He's not a fun troll is he? It's like hanging out down the park with a really bored 15 yr old.


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> that was probably the most worth money bit of lyrics ever


 
Go and have a wank in a sock to it.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Come on big nose, why bother doing all this shit _yet again? _


 
maybe a better question is why not?

it's like having a period for me

why do you do what you do?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Socrates philosophies and hypotheses can't define how I be droppin these mockeries I lyrically perform armed robbery, flee with the lottery possibly they spotted me?


 
If we give you some crayons will you play quietly and let the grownups talk?


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> What exactly are you trying to achieve on here biggus? Do you have a point?


 
Not really no I just have thoughts that I like putting out to people who will respond


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> If we give you some crayons will you play quietly and let the grownups talk?


 

about rave powered tricycles?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Not really no I just have thoughts that I like putting out to people who will respond


 
SpeAking you're branes?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> about rave powered tricycles?


 
Yes dear, that's right. Now about those crayons...


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> SpeAking you're branes?


 
very good


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

Ok I have to hand it to you spikey noone you have completely intellectually defeated me. I should probably feel upset to be so humiliated but to be honest I am just happy to have even been involved in such a challenging conflict of ideas. I'm amazed that you don't have a job


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Ok well class is real but the way it is framed is bollocks. My parents were teachers and they worked 10 hours a day for 40 years and educated the fuck out of me and my brother and then I am meant to feel guilty about that. I work hard as well in my very middle class university job and yet middle class is used as an insult, I even used to feel guilty about the fact that I knew things because my parents educated me. Sorry I think I'm just off on one, it does wind me up though, it's shite for everyone, I think most people are stuck in the middle with a varying amount of money or connections


 
As with most people who object to the way "class" is framed, you miss the point because you're too busy taking issue with whatever point makes you feel uncomfortable. Nobody is asking or telling you to feel guilty, they're asking you to acknowledge the reality of class divisions and the fact that the middle classes and upper classes get a better deal than the working classes. Nobody is asking you or telling you that it isn't "shite for everybody", they're asking you to entertain the notion that your class (and all the concomitants of that) *may* insulate you better from the effects of the "shite".
BTW, again, you're attempting to extrapolate your own situation and views into a general "most people"-type of thing. Perhaps you'd be better off speaking for "most people" only once you're better able to speak for yourself?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Ok I have to hand it to you spikey noone you have completely intellectually defeated me. I should probably feel upset to be so humiliated but to be honest I am just happy to have even been involved in such a challenging conflict of ideas. I'm amazed that you don't have a job


 
Who said I didn't have a job


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Ok I have to hand it to you spikey noone you have completely intellectually defeated me. I should probably feel upset to be so humiliated but to be honest I am just happy to have even been involved in such a challenging conflict of ideas. I'm amazed that you don't have a job


i'm amazed you do have one.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> i'm being kettled


 
Could be worse, you could be potted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Who said I didn't have a job


it's just been deleted, orders of biggus dickus

sorry you had to find out about it like this.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> You could respect the fact that I work hard for a living but I doubt it because you seem like an idiot


 
Big fucking deal. I worked so hard for a living, even after I was rendered disabled, that I permanently ruined my health and (according to my GP) probably shortened my lifespan, but I don't demand respect for having done so, in fact if someone did respect me for having worked hard, I'd think they had their priorities wrong. Working hard and *having to* work hard is a fact of life within capitalism for many people.

Way to go on implying that people who don't work are idiots, by the way. The more of this crap you write, the more you reveal yourself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Big fucking deal. I worked so hard for a living, even after I was rendered disabled, that I permanently ruined my health and (according to my GP) probably shortened my lifespan, but I don't demand respect for having done so, in fact if someone did respect me for having worked hard, I'd think they had their priorities wrong. Working hard and *having to* work hard is a fact of life within capitalism for many people.
> 
> Way to go on implying that people who don't work are idiots, by the way. The more of this crap you write, the more you reveal yourself.


i hope he doesn't expose himself here.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2012)

I suspect 'biggus dickus' is really 'littlus chipolatus'


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I'm not highly educated at all that was my whole point! My parents are just normal people who worked really hard like normal people do and you go on about your whole class shit but the government has been giving eveyone free school and hospital for about 50 years, what are you protesting about? you know the arab spring and that was against secret police and corruption they weren't asking for better free hospitals


 
Most of the protests over the last two years have shared a theme - retaining what little we have left in terms of the post-war social settlement in the face of a government *and* opposition whose ideology impels them to strip that settlement away entirely.
You may not think that such things are worth protesting about. I suspect thatonce the consequences impact on you "up close and personal", you'll change your tune. Of course, by then you'll be too late, and you'll just be another victim of the marketisation of the public sector.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> As with most people who object to the way "class" is framed, you miss the point because you're too busy taking issue with whatever point makes you feel uncomfortable. Nobody is asking or telling you to feel guilty, they're asking you to acknowledge the reality of class divisions and the fact that the middle classes and upper classes get a better deal than the working classes. Nobody is asking you or telling you that it isn't "shite for everybody", they're asking you to entertain the notion that your class (and all the concomitants of that) *may* insulate you better from the effects of the "shite".
> BTW, again, you're attempting to extrapolate your own situation and views into a general "most people"-type of thing. Perhaps you'd be better off speaking for "most people" only once you're better able to speak for yourself?


It isn't a reality though because noone agrees on the definition of what is middle or working class!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> It isn't a reality though because noone agrees on the definition of what is middle or working class!


but they do agree on how to spell "no one".


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Most of the protests over the last two years have shared a theme - retaining what little we have left in terms of the post-war social settlement in the face of a government *and* opposition whose ideology impels them to strip that settlement away entirely.
> You may not think that such things are worth protesting about. I suspect thatonce the consequences impact on you "up close and personal", you'll change your tune. Of course, by then you'll be too late, and you'll just be another victim of the marketisation of the public sector.


 
You are wrong wrong wrong on this count 

I was and never will be a person whose opinion matters. There is no point in me going to a protest or anything like that 

Even if it was a revolution it wouldn't change anything. It's people doing work who change things, not wankers shouting


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

newbie said:


> yes, all of that.
> 
> Doesn't change that it happened, nor that their campaign failed in just the way that other campaigns that could also inspire hundreds of thousands to demonstrate- against the invasion, against cuts, against the bomb- also look like failures. The only other major demo I can think of where the usual suspects were absent was the Mary Whitehouse one. That was much smaller. It also failed.
> 
> I suppose the demonstration in support of the social movement against the polltax could be called a success: the Daily Mail didn't like it, so chalk up one for the rednblack hoops. Are there any other example of mass demonstrations actually helping win a campaign?


 
I'm not sure why people think there's a direct link. Perhaps the most effective consequence of most demonstrations is that of publicity, in that at least in *some* circumstances publicity (whether good, bad or indifferent) does expose a wider audience to the issues the demonstration was about.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> It's people doing work who change things, not wankers shouting


 
You seem to be doing mostly the latter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I was and never will be a person whose opinion matters.


if it doesn't matter to you, why the bloody fuck are you buggering about here?


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

What about where protests worked like in Egypt or Greece?

They got rid of the government by protesting but they are still fucked. and they don't even have governments any more! Oh yeah, er, have some money and employment since your protest won....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> It isn't a reality though because noone agrees on the definition of what is middle or working class!


 
Nah, plenty of people agree. They're mostly the ones who pay attention to the fact that class isn't a unitary category, that class is a category that can be differentially apllied to the economic or social status of a person, as well as to their educational status. A lot of media debate focuses on only one category, rather than all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> but they do agree on how to spell "no one".


 
He could be talking about Peter Noone.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> What about where protests worked like in Egypt or Greece?
> 
> They got rid of the government by protesting but they are still fucked. and they don't even have governments any more! Oh yeah, er, have some money and employment since your protest won....


you mean like in egypt where the us-backed protests toppled one military government only to see another military government replace it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> He could be talking about Peter Noone.


he hasn't got the wit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> You are wrong wrong wrong on this count
> 
> I was and never will be a person whose opinion matters. There is no point in me going to a protest or anything like that


 
Just because you've given up/like lying belly-up doesn't mean that I'm wrong, it just means that you're a defeatist who isn't a very good student of history. Ideas and actions don't come out of nowhere. They all originate as a single idea from a single person. You, you just haven't got the bottle to take responsibility for yourself. Like most of your ilk, you talk a good game, but you actually want the state to wipe your arse for you and keep everything "nice" and "safe".



> Even if it was a revolution it wouldn't change anything. It's people doing work who change things, not wankers shouting


 
Yep, you're not a good student of history at all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> What about where protests worked like in Egypt or Greece?
> 
> They got rid of the government by protesting but they are still fucked. and they don't even have governments any more! Oh yeah, er, have some money and employment since your protest won....


 
Typical product of neo-liberalism - expects instant gratification. Here in the real world most people realise that change, even revolutionary change, tends to be incremental.

After all, you can't liquidate *all* your enemies in a single day without a significant use of manpower.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you mean like in egypt where the us-backed protests toppled one military government only to see another military government replace it?


 
exactly

or in greece where they have destroyed 2 governments since the financial collapse but amazingly whoever they put into power is not able to represent the needs of the people

or anywhere ever ever ever where logic fails because someone has something


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> It's people doing work who change things, not wankers shouting


 
What about when the "wankers" are shouting because they're being deprived of work? When the socially necessary work jobs they perform are being cut, is that ok?

You realise that, even to people who might generally agree with your backward politics, you're coming across as an ignorant wanker, right?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> or anywhere ever ever ever where logic fails because someone has something


 
Your logic appears to have failed on this one - what the fuck is that supposed to mean? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

When your parents "educated you like fuck" why didn't they teach you how to construct a coherent sentence?


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just because you've given up/like lying belly-up doesn't mean that I'm wrong, it just means that you're a defeatist who isn't a very good student of history. Ideas and actions don't come out of nowhere. They all originate as a single idea from a single person. You, you just haven't got the bottle to take responsibility for yourself. Like most of your ilk, you talk a good game, but you actually want the state to wipe your arse for you and keep everything "nice" and "safe".


 
I haven't given up. I don't want anything from the state except to be left alone. I am happy to pay tax and have my job, I don't have a problem with that, and I accept that the government is shite because that is how it goes. I just don't like being told that I'm stupid because I am not into rave tricycles, when I was a teenager I did a lot of drugs and loved all of that protesting and raving, it is a load of bollocks though. they don't have rave tricycles in china or burma or zimbabwe


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> What about when the "wankers" are shouting because they're being deprived of work? When the socially necessary work jobs they perform are being cut, is that ok?
> 
> You realise that, even to people who might generally agree with your backward politics, you're coming across as an ignorant wanker, right?


 
there were wankers shouting when employment was low 10 years ago


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I haven't given up. I don't want anything from the state except to be left alone. I am happy to pay tax and have my job, I don't have a problem with that, and I accept that the government is shite because that is how it goes. I just don't like being told that I'm stupid because I am not into rave tricycles, when I was a teenager I did a lot of drugs and loved all of that protesting and raving, it is a load of bollocks though. they don't have rave tricycles in china or burma or zimbabwe


 
I don't think you're stupid because you're not into rave tricycles - nor am I. I'm not a fan of yoghurt weaving or contemporary ritual clowning either.

I think you're stupid because you have no grasp of history or logic and you can't string a sentence together.

There are some sane right wingers on these boards. I disagree with them but they certainly aren't stupid. I can't say the same about you though.

And if a group of smelly proles came round, bent on stringing you up by your own wank encrusted bed linen I'd like to lay a bet you'd want more from the state than "being left alone".


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> there were wankers shouting when employment was low 10 years ago


 
So what? Answer the question.

And unemployment wasn't "low" 10 years ago. Compared with employment levels in the 50s, 60s and 70s it was very high.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm not a right winger, I just think you are a wanker


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I just don't like being told that I'm stupid because I am not into rave tricycles,


that's not why you are being called stupid. it's because you are stupid that you're being called stupid.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I'm not a right winger, I just think you are a wanker


 
I am a wanker.

And you are a right winger - "I work, pay my taxes and all I want from the state is to be left alone" - classic petty bourgeois right wing individualism right there. You're just too stupid to understand your own politics.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

You aren't even left wing anyway on here, you are like the liberal democrats you read lots of books and watch lots of films and complain about everything but you would never actually do anything about anything. It's just constant 'you don't understand logic or history' with nothing to say, go on spikey norman, have an idea you fucking genius

it's just moan moan fucking moan

the world carries on without you


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)




----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> You aren't even left wing anyway on here, you are like the liberal democrats you read lots of books and watch lots of films and complain about everything but you would never actually do anything about anything. It's just constant 'you don't understand logic or history' with nothing to say, go on spikey norman, have an idea you fucking genius
> 
> it's just moan moan fucking moan
> 
> the world carries on without you


clueless cunt.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I am a wanker.
> 
> And you are a right winger - "I work, pay my taxes and all I want from the state is to be left alone" - classic petty bourgeois right wing individualism right there. You're just too stupid to understand your own politics.


 
so aside from the labels of right wing, petty bourgoise and individualist and stupid what is actually wrong with me working and paying tax ?

what should i do?


----------



## cantsin (Apr 15, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> As always froggy you're incredibly perceptive; breaking down those barriers is absolutely _key_ and I was trying to allude to that in my sarcastic, cynical OP. I genuinely believe that a march composed of all those people who _wouldn't_ ordinarily protest could be really powerful. Something _without_ the unions, the trustifarians ... all of that. I really hope people can understand that I'm not against all that kind of protest, but I really want something that the Mail will report because it's _their_ people out there protesting!


 
"without unions" ? you want a march without unions, but with People Who Look/Dress like/appeal to Daily Mail Readers ?

Have you tried the UKIP forum with this drivel ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> exactly
> 
> or in greece where they have destroyed 2 governments since the financial collapse but amazingly whoever they put into power is not able to represent the needs of the people
> 
> or anywhere ever ever ever where logic fails because someone has something


so the demonstrations which were coordinated by the united states in egypt, which replaced one government friendly to the united states with another government friendly to the united states but more repressive towards its own population, how was that a demonstration which emerged from disgruntled egyptians themselves? you're full of excrement, and not for the first time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> so aside from the labels of right wing, petty bourgoise and individualist and stupid what is actually wrong with me working and paying tax ?
> 
> what should i do?


something terminal


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> what should i do?


fuck  off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

fucthest8 said:


> As always froggy you're incredibly perceptive; breaking down those barriers is absolutely _key_ and I was trying to allude to that in my sarcastic, cynical OP. I genuinely believe that a march composed of all those people who _wouldn't_ ordinarily protest could be really powerful. Something _without_ the unions, the trustifarians ... all of that. I really hope people can understand that I'm not against all that kind of protest, but I really want something that the Mail will report because it's _their_ people out there protesting!


yes we've had this and it didn't work: 15/02/03 against the war in iraq; also the countryside alliance demonstration numbering 423,000, which didn't work either


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

discokermit said:


> fuck off.


not permanent enough


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> so aside from the labels of right wing, petty bourgoise and individualist and stupid what is actually wrong with me working and paying tax ?
> 
> what should i do?


 
I'm sorry, who said there was anything wrong with working and paying tax? I'd imagine most of the posters on this thread do that too.

Ever made on of these Biggus?







I have.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 15, 2012)

What is it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm sorry, who said there was anything wrong with working and paying tax? I'd imagine most of the posters on this thread do that too.
> 
> Ever made on of these Biggus?
> 
> ...


what would come out at the other end if you put biggus dickus in?


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

discokermit said:


> fuck off.


 
like i said, the problem for you is that everyone does fuck off, or just walks past


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm sorry, who said there was anything wrong with working and paying tax? I'd imagine most of the posters on this thread do that too.
> 
> Ever made on of these Biggus?
> 
> ...


 
yeah, i made 2 today


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> like i said, the problem for you is that everyone does fuck off, or just walks past


the problem for you is that they stop, point and laugh.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what would come out at the other end if you put biggus dickus in?


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> yeah, i made 2 today


the only thing you have made is a twat of yourself. repeatedly.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> yeah, i made 2 today


 Care to tell us all what it is and what's special about the pipework it uses then?


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

anyway

enjoy your 

oh wait, you won't


----------



## cantsin (Apr 15, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> Dear SWP people, we have organised this protest to make our views heard on a particular issue. We have not organised this protest as an excuse for you lot to roll up with your megaphones and your placards and generally use the whole thing as an excuse for you to promote the staggeringly irrelevant shower of retrogressive one-note cretins you call a party.
> 
> If you or your laughable ideology had any popular support you wouldn't need to keep doing this, and the fact that you do should tell you that you're flogging a horse that's been dead for the better part of a century and that everyone would be happier if you all just killed yourselves. Well, I say everyone would be happier, chances are nobody would even notice. Apart from a general improvement in the calibre of attendees at demonstrations and a cessation of endless antisocial flyposting for your stupid Marxism 1938 2012 'conference' or some other impressive-sounding event which will actually amount to little more than some increasingly suicidal people listening to your local head honcho talking a load of old shit in a three-quarters empty friends' meeting house, nobody would notice or care that every last one of you was dead.
> 
> ...


 
are you sat in a student union with a laptop writing this by any chance ? mummys' living room ? either way, you sound like one dull, deeply unfunny and clueless fuck nugget. Like most people on here, I consider myself a long way away from the SWP politically, but I still enjoy a beer with various swappies from time to time ( nearly had one come stay after Torquay NUT last week. ) They're real people, you sound like a snidey wannabee .


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Care to tell us all what it is and what's special about the pipework it uses then?


 
trade secrets spunky, trade secrets


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


>


so bits of


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> anyway
> 
> enjoy your
> 
> oh wait, you won't


 
I have a very enjoyable life thanks all the same. Your incoherent rage against I'm not quite sure what suggests that you're not so content.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I have a very enjoyable life thanks all the same. Your incoherent rage against I'm not quite sure what suggests that you're not so content.


he's not all there anyway


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> trade secrets spunky, trade secrets


 
It's not a trade sectret; it's taught in universities and colleges and besides you can't patent a process. So you can feel free to explain safe in the knowledge that you're not revealing anything you shouldn't be.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

pickmans model has a millionaire dad


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I have a very enjoyable life thanks all the same. Your incoherent rage against I'm not quite sure what suggests that you're not so content.


 
it isn't rage i just find you funny


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

fucking loser


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> It's not a trade sectret; it's taught in universities and colleges and besides you can't patent a process. So you can feel free to explain safe in the knowledge that you're not revealing anything you shouldn't be.


is it something to do with food processing?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> What is it?


 
Since Biggus clearly isn't going to tell you I will - it's a chocolate moulding plant.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

discokermit said:


> is it something to do with food processing?


 
We have a winner!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> it isn't rage i just find you funny


 
I find you tragic.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> fucking loser


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

it's a chocolate moulding plant


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> We have a winner!


i cheated and looked up the site from the info on the picture. was going to drag it out a bit longer.

pretty sure it was food or pharmaceuticals though from the use of stainless.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> it's a chocolate moulding plant


 
Well done - here, have a colouring book to go with those crayons.


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 15, 2012)

the one i built was a meat moulding plant. i could have built a chocolate moulding plant but it seemed a bit easy


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Since Biggus clearly isn't going to tell you I will - it's a chocolate moulding plant.


 

It looks superb.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

discokermit said:


> i cheated and looked up the site from the info on the picture. was going to drag it out a bit longer.
> 
> pretty sure it was food or pharmaceuticals though from the use of stainless.


 
Yeah, although the ones I worked on were jacketed in mild steel - couldn't find a pic of one of those though.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> the one i built was a meat moulding plant. i could have built a chocolate moulding plant but it seemed a bit easy


 
Ameat beating plant, more like.

C'mon, sugar-plum, I like to make a dick of myself on these boards, but you're doing it with no finesse, no elan at all.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> the one i built was a meat moulding plant. i could have built a chocolate moulding plant but it seemed a bit easy


 
There's no such thing and even if there was it would be easier, not harder, since you don't have to keep meat at 30 degrees to keep it tempered.

Fuckwit.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> It looks superb.


 
Cheers mate


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Cheers mate


is it for milk chocolate or plain?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> is it for milk chocolate or plain?


 
Milk.

Interesting thing I never knew until I worked on chocolate plants - there's a species of moth called the chocolate moth. We had to take out an old redundant plant once where they'd not flushed the chocolate out of the pipes - there were fucking millions of the little bastards and they all swarmed out when muggins here took the first pipe off.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 15, 2012)

What did chocolate moths do for a scran before there was chocolate? Poor fuckers must've been hungry for thousands of years waiting for Messrs Cadbury and Rowntree to get their acts together.


----------



## newbie (Apr 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not sure why people think there's a direct link. Perhaps the most effective consequence of most demonstrations is that of publicity, in that at least in *some* circumstances publicity (whether good, bad or indifferent) does expose a wider audience to the issues the demonstration was about.


I've never really been convinced that matters one way or t'other tbh.

However there is a feeling of mutuality, of solidarity, of not being alone for the participants.  That's important, imo, as much for widely unpopular campaigns (eg against the Falklands war) as for something like anti-cuts where individual battles are being fought across a mixed national-, local- and quasi-state terrain. Just knowing that there are people from all over the country who share the same concerns makes attendance worthwhile.

Even if the fashion sense of some of them does involve Dennis the Menace/Minnie the Minx rednblack hoops.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> What did chocolate moths do for a scran before there was chocolate? Poor fuckers must've been hungry for thousands of years waiting for Messrs Cadbury and Rowntree to get their acts together.


 
That's exactly what I wondered. Only thing I can think of is that they might have fed on coco beans or something.

I also wondered how they got into the chocolate - they couldn't have flown there - how would they have known it was there and what would they have survived on on their way there? Only answer I can come up with is that the eggs were in the chocolate all along, which makes me view the mars bar I'm about to eat differently!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Quick google brings up this on the chocolate moth. 

And this from the Daily Mail


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 15, 2012)

The Indian Meal Moth - I like the sound of that.


----------



## stuff_it (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm sorry, who said there was anything wrong with working and paying tax? I'd imagine most of the posters on this thread do that too.
> 
> Ever made on of these Biggus?
> 
> ...





SpineyNorman said:


> Care to tell us all what it is and what's special about the pipework it uses then?


Please can someone tell me?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Please can someone tell me?


it's a chocolate moulding plant


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> And this from the Daily Mail


'I was going to leave it but Darren rang them up and said 'a child could have eaten that'

lol!


----------



## stuff_it (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> it's a chocolate moulding plant


Fantastic, engineering and chocolate at once! Great stuff!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

And the thing about the pipework - once it's been tempered you have to keep chocolate within a few hundredths of a degree of 30 degrees - any cooler and it will crystalise, leaving unsightly white bits in your chocolate, and any warmer and it makes it taste shit. So to make sure it stays at the right temperature while it's passing through the pipes they put a second pipe around the pipe the chocolate goes through, which they call a jacket. They then pass water through the jacket at 30 degrees, which keeps the inner pipe at precisely the right temperature.

It also keeps pipe fitters in work cos they're always going wrong and someone has to be on call at all times in case there's a leak cos if even the tiniest drop of water gets in the chocolate it all has to be thrown away - and chocolate is the most expensive ingredient in supermarket confectionary - in fact it's almost always the most expensive ingredient in luxury confectionary. That's why they've spent so much developing aeration technology that makes it look like there's more chocolate in the bar than there really is (and as it happens my old man developed what is now one of the most widely used aeration techniques).


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Fantastic, engineering and chocolate at once! Great stuff!


 
'twas a fucking great job, I'd still be doing it if I hadn't fucked my shoulder up


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> And the thing about the pipework - once it's been tempered you have to keep chocolate within a few hundredths of a degree of 30 degrees - any cooler and it will crystalise, leaving unsightly white bits in your chocolate, and any warmer and it makes it taste shit. So to make sure it stays at the right temperature while it's passing through the pipes they put a second pipe around the pipe the chocolate goes through, which they call a jacket. They then pass water through the jacket at 30 degrees, which keeps the inner pipe at precisely the right temperature.
> 
> It also keeps pipe fitters in work cos they're always going wrong and someone has to be on call at all times in case there's a leak cos if even the tiniest drop of water gets in the chocolate it all has to be thrown away - and chocolate is the most expensive ingredient in supermarket confectionary - in fact it's almost always the most expensive ingredient in luxury confectionary. That's why they've spent so much developing aeration technology that makes it look like there's more chocolate in the bar than there really is (and as it happens my old man developed what is now one of the most widely used aeration techniques).


you mean your old man is the margaret thatcher of the chocolate world?


----------



## stuff_it (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> 'twas a fucking great job, I'd still be doing it if I hadn't fucked my shoulder up


Did you get to test your instillations?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you mean your old man is the margaret thatcher of the chocolate world?


 
 I'm gonna say that next time we have an argument!

But yeah, basically he is. Before he developed his process they were limited to about 3% nitrogen. They couldn't go any further because once you tried to put more than that in you couldn't keep the bubbles microscopic so you ended up with a WISPA kind of thing. My old man developed a process that allowed you to keep them microscopic with up to 30% nitrogen. In reality they had to keep it down to I think about 25% because after that it gets discoloured. They don't use it in dairy milks and stuff like that cos they're sold by weight, but anything that has other, cheaper, ingredients in it, like KITKATS or Mars bars, it's great cos they can bulk up on the other stuff to make the weight up and save a fortune.

Thing is, my old man never really got anything out of it, just got his usual modest salary. But chocolate companies must have saved tens of millions using it and the company he worked for made a fortune selling the machinery. And all we got was less chocolate (although as a cadbury's pensioner he does still get free choc at xmas and access to the cheap factory shop).


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Did you get to test your instillations?


 
You were allowed to eat anything you wanted so long as you didn't take it away from the line it was produced on (that was just to stop contamination, so you didn't dribble nuts on a line where something with no nuts was being produced or whatever).

We also use to make chocolate moulds of various daft things when we were on nights and there was nobody at the factory. Best one was a chocolate kettle that we left in the gaffer's office - he understood the hint


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

biggus dickus i don't know why you're doing this - why are you being a dick on this thread? 

class does exist, i used to feel guilty for being middle class as well. i don't now - nobody is asking you to feel ashamed or anything, it's just to understand that not everyone has the same chances and same life experiences that you have had and that this is systemic. 

it's nothing to do with people being wankers for being middle class, it's because people often just assume that the reason why someone doesn't go uni or have a good job etc is because they're thick, didn't work hard at school etc and it's not true


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> biggus dickus i don't know why you're doing this - why are you being a dick on this thread?
> 
> class does exist, i used to feel guilty for being middle class as well. i don't now - nobody is asking you to feel ashamed or anything, it's just to understand that not everyone has the same chances and same life experiences that you have had and that this is systemic.
> 
> it's nothing to do with people being wankers for being middle class, it's because people often just assume that the reason why someone doesn't go uni or have a good job etc is because they're thick, didn't work hard at school etc and it's not true


we're ignoring him now and talking chocolate production techniques. it's much better.


----------



## harpo (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> You were allowed to eat anything you wanted so long as you didn't take it away from the line it was produced on (that was just to stop contamination, so you didn't dribble nuts on a line where something with no nuts was being produced or whatever).
> 
> We also use to make chocolate moulds of various daft things when we were on nights and there was nobody at the factory. Best one was a chocolate kettle that we left in the gaffer's office - he understood the hint


 
i made Chewits back in the day and it was the same.  Not many did, the appeal wore off quickly.

The Chewit factory was run to 'revolutionary' Scadanavian principles (it was owned by Leaf in those days) whereby staff has 15 minutes in every hour off the machine in addition to a full hour lunch and things like footy clubs and socials were funded.  I only worked there for about 2 years and it was over 20 years ago now, but I do remember the staff being pretty content.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> It also keeps pipe fitters in work cos they're always going wrong and someone has to be on call at all times in case there's a leak cos if even the tiniest drop of water gets in the chocolate it all has to be thrown away - and chocolate is the most expensive ingredient in supermarket confectionary - in fact it's almost always the most expensive ingredient in luxury confectionary. That's why they've spent so much developing aeration technology that makes it look like there's more chocolate in the bar than there really is (and as it happens my old man developed what is now one of the most widely used aeration techniques).


 
Why does it have to be thrown away if there's water in it?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

Yeah, we had similar stuff, when I first started there was a fully equipped garage, with pits, car lifts, all kinds of tools, etc. that any member of staff could use to maintain their car. We got a three course meal every day too (not gourmet but still decent, similar to the kind of stuff you get at weatherspoons but not as pretty to look at) and there was a christmas party where everyone's kids got a present from the company (decent ones too, not just tacky plastic shite) and we had a really goood social club with a snooker hall and three different bars.

I started just before that stuff started to be cut but I'm just old enough to have seen it. It was ace. It was also the most unionised place I've ever worked in. I suspect the two things are linked.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Why does it have to be thrown away if there's water in it?


 
Well, the water isn't particularly clean - the jacketing works like a central heating system so you've got a tank of water that's feeding it - so it's not fresh. But more than that, when water mixed with the nutrients in chocolate, especially at 30 degrees, it produces toxines. That's why when you melt chocolate for cakes etc. at home you should always try not to get water in it. And if course, at 30 degrees any bugs introduced by the water will breed like fuck.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2012)

Seriously, I didn't know that! Could that be part of the reason why dogs shouldn't eat chocolate?


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Since Biggus clearly isn't going to tell you I will - it's a chocolate moulding plant.


Mmmmmmmm, mouldy chocolate

*drool*


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Seriously, I didn't know that! Could that be part of the reason why dogs shouldn't eat chocolate?


 
I don't know tbh, suspect not though, I imagine it's more that chocolate's too rich for them and makes them puke.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm educated middle class - respect me, stupid proles!


 
Oh, I've had that before.  Even from sixth formers.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 15, 2012)

cantsin said:


> are you sat in a student union with a laptop writing this by any chance ? mummys' living room ? either way, you sound like one dull, deeply unfunny and clueless fuck nugget. Like most people on here, I consider myself a long way away from the SWP politically, but I still enjoy a beer with various swappies from time to time ( nearly had one come stay after Torquay NUT last week. ) They're real people, you sound like a snidey wannabee .


 
At least my rant was based on having actually met some of the people I was ranting at. You're way off the mark as it happens. I'm sure there are lovely people in the SWP, but while they continue to adhere to the policies and strategies of a cuntish organisation I find it saves time to think of them all as cunts and move on to working with people who wouldn't have me and my friends rounded up and shot if they ever got in power.

I may be an ignorant cunt, but at least I'm an ignorant cunt on my own terms. Simillarly, if I'm involved in a campaign or protest or whatever it will be because I agree with the aims and principles in question, not because I see an opportunity to gain from it personally. The SWP take a different view. They see political and social change as a means to furthering their own agenda, an agenda which often differs radically from whatever it is they or their front groups are claiming to be in favour of this week.

So yeah, they make me angry and I end up hurling abuse at them. This would not be the case had I not seen their methods in action on numerous occasions. They cheapen and distort everything they touch. They are parasites and it is their deliberate strategy to be parasitical. I see them as an obstacle to good people getting good stuff done. I am very very very far from being alone in holding this opinion.

e2a: Credit where credit's due, the SWP are good at anti fascist campaigning. This seems to be the one area where they are prepared to put aside their endless self-promotion and get on with it. I have worked with them on this before and would gladly continue to do so.


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

it's like tag team twattery.  when one fucks off, the other one turns up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Oh, I've had that before. Even from sixth formers.


you get that a lot from trainee lawyers, who think that because they know what an act is that they're somehow a cut above everyone else.

but they're living proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2012)

discokermit said:


> it's like tag team twattery. when one fucks off, the other one turns up.


..and this curly-haired child ends up praising one of their worst features.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 15, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> ..and this curly-haired child ends up praising one of their worst features.


 
Again with the curly hair. If I didn't have such great respect for you I'd swear you were jealous.

Do you disapprove of anti-fascism now then? I'm not exactly surprised but it's strange to see you admit it.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 15, 2012)

I don't know about ba but I definitely do disapprove of the current SWP brand of antifascism. I'm told by my brother, who was involved at the time, that ANL mk1 was a lot better but my experience of SWP antifascism is that it's either ineffective or downright counter-productive.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 15, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I don't know about ba but I definitely do disapprove of the current SWP brand of antifascism. I'm told by my brother, who was involved at the time, that ANL mk1 was a lot better but my experience of SWP antifascism is that it's either ineffective or downright counter-productive.


 
I was talking more about door-to-door sort of stuff. When it comes to organising demos it's the same old SWP.

At the last anti-EDL demo I went on the bloke on stage (they brought a stage ffs) was insisting quite forcefully that everyone stop confronting the EDL members and the police who had kettled us and instead stand quietly and listen to their speakers. Swappies were massively outnumbered by ordinary folk, mostly asians, but because they'd neglected to bring a fucking PA with them they weren't entitled to an opinion. Unbelievable. To see how upset this clown got that he wasn't being obeyed was really quite telling.


----------



## discokermit (Apr 15, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> I was talking more about door-to-door sort of stuff. When it comes to organising demos it's the same old SWP.
> 
> At the last anti-EDL demo I went on the bloke on stage (they brought a stage ffs) was insisting quite forcefully that everyone stop confronting the EDL members and the police who had kettled us and instead stand quietly and listen to their speakers. Swappies were massively outnumbered by ordinary folk, mostly asians, but because they'd neglected to bring a fucking PA with them they weren't entitled to an opinion. Unbelievable. To see how upset this clown got that he wasn't being obeyed was really quite telling.


shoulda been on the welling demo, not the good ones, the one where they had a little stage with a tory councillor/mayor/summat. i went mental. nearly had a fight with a leading comrade. mind you, i was speeding my tits off.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 15, 2012)

For a bunch of revolutionaries they sure seem to like doing whatever the police tell them to.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 15, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> At least my rant was based on having actually met some of the people I was ranting at. You're way off the mark as it happens. I'm sure there are lovely people in the SWP, but while they continue to adhere to the policies and strategies of a cuntish organisation I find it saves time to think of them all as cunts and move on to working with people who wouldn't have me and my friends rounded up and shot if they ever got in power.
> 
> I may be an ignorant cunt, but at least I'm an ignorant cunt on my own terms. Simillarly, if I'm involved in a campaign or protest or whatever it will be because I agree with the aims and principles in question, not because I see an opportunity to gain from it personally. The SWP take a different view. They see political and social change as a means to furthering their own agenda, an agenda which often differs radically from whatever it is they or their front groups are claiming to be in favour of this week.
> 
> ...


 
I'm guessing mummy's sitting room in the end


----------



## Wilf (Apr 16, 2012)

Biggus in action a little earlier:


----------



## biggus dickus (Apr 16, 2012)

My uncle was a fudge packer


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

cantsin said:


> I'm guessing mummy's sitting room in the end


 
I'm guessing you have mother issues, to keep raising the matter.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> Again with the curly hair. If I didn't have such great respect for you I'd swear you were jealous.
> 
> Do you disapprove of anti-fascism now then? I'm not exactly surprised but it's strange to see you admit it.


What's this last line supposed to mean? That there's only one form of anti-fascism and it's the UAF/SWP type that you praise above and then hurriedly reject only a few minutes later when someone points out its rather obvious failings? That i'm some sort of fascist sympathiser?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> What's this last line supposed to mean? That there's only one form of anti-fascism and it's the UAF/SWP type that you praise above and then hurriedly reject only a few minutes later when someone points out its rather obvious failings? That i'm some sort of fascist sympathiser?


 
It's not very nice when people keep throwing baseless accusations at you is it?

You have shit hair by the way.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

I'd like to know what sort of baseless accusation that you think you threw at me.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I'd like to know what sort of baseless accusation that you think you threw at me.


 
You seem to think I was accusing you of being a fascist. The thought never crossed my mind, I was merely accusing you of being an arsehole.


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## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2012)

That's your baseless accusation?

Why all the anti-fascist stuff? Why praise the UAF/SWPs form of ineffectual and counter-productive anti-fascism then hurriedly reject it a few posts later? No politics, just tantrums, back to the treehouse.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2012)

And I didn't reject anything, I qualified what I had previously said.


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## treelover (Apr 16, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> nah, i think the unions are still important, don't forget that about 3-4 million+ people are in unions. but rather than not having them in a protest i think part of the thing is trying to get people to join unions or do union-like stuff even if they're not in one. part of the thing with unions is that a lot of people my age (for example) don't even know what they are and if they do know they frequently think that it's just for people in the public sector, who aren't agency workers, who work on the trains etc.
> 
> i think workplace organisation is massively important. i'm not saying you don't but i think that things like November 30th helped massively in terms of public perception of the unions, there are now more private sector workers going on strike, etc.


 

On the March 26th protest there were thousands of young people, proudly(and they were) wearing FBU hats, waving RMT flags, cheering Unite Bin Men, etc...


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## treelover (Apr 16, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm amazed he had time to write it, but then I suppose Moses found a spare weekend to jot down the Torah on the back of a fag packet and he was nearly as awesome as this Henderson bloke.


 
I'm surprised at your comments, SF, no one dislikes the SWP's MO more than me but this guy seems a really good sort, dedicating his life to aid other workers...


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

newbie said:


> I've never really been convinced that matters one way or t'other tbh.
> 
> However there is a feeling of mutuality, of solidarity, of not being alone for the participants. That's important, imo, as much for widely unpopular campaigns (eg against the Falklands war) as for something like anti-cuts where individual battles are being fought across a mixed national-, local- and quasi-state terrain. Just knowing that there are people from all over the country who share the same concerns makes attendance worthwhile.
> 
> Even if the fashion sense of some of them does involve Dennis the Menace/Minnie the Minx rednblack hoops.


 
The "fashion sense" issue has always tickled me. I left the army and had worn had my fill of olive drab and DPM, and when re-engaging with politics, found that "surplus chic" was running amok. The irony of peacenik types wearing _Bundeswehr_ para boots, shirts and greatcoats never failed to raise an ironic chuckle from me, back in the early to mid '80s. I didn't fancy swapping one uniform for another, so just grew my hair long instead.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> I haven't given up. I don't want anything from the state except to be left alone. I am happy to pay tax and have my job...


 
You don't want anything from the state? You're content to rely on private, pay-at-the-point-of-use medicine, then? To send your kids to a fee-paying school? To pay tolls on every major road or motorway you use?



> I don't have a problem with that, and I accept that the government is shite because that is how it goes.


 
It only "goes" like that because people like yourself, who divorce themselves from the consequences of their apathy, allow it.



> I just don't like being told that I'm stupid because I am not into rave tricycles...


 
Ha anyone actually said that? Not that I can see.
They've accused you of being stupid for not being able to hold an argument with anything like a convincing (or even consistent) narrative, but that's hardly the same thing.



> when I was a teenager I did a lot of drugs and loved all of that protesting and raving, it is a load of bollocks though. they don't have rave tricycles in china or burma or zimbabwe


 

Rave tricycles and crusties are hardly the sum of all protests, though. You're projecting a couple of relatively benign although slightly annoying facets of protest, and missing the point of why *all* those people, not just the acid casualties and the dog-on-a-string types, might be protesting.

You'll be one of those people who suddenly becomes engaged when politics has a direct and immediate effect on you, and then you'll be whining "why didn't anyone do something to stop this?", totally forgetting how you "just wanted to be left alone".


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm sorry, who said there was anything wrong with working and paying tax? I'd imagine most of the posters on this thread do that too.
> 
> Ever made on of these Biggus?
> 
> ...


 
Cool. I'm a big fan of Mousetrap.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> he's not all there anyway


 
Neither was Nairac after he'd been through the mincer, to be fair.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 16, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Cool. I'm a big fan of Mousetrap.



 rat trap more like. I think any government that really wanted people to eat more fresh food would publicise the rat problem faced by just about every food factory there is, especially bakeries. 

Fuck, there's actually a maximum quantity of rat hair that's tolerated in flour  

And I suspect that the rats at (actually I'm not going to say where in case I get sued) have interbred with either dogs or badgers. We used to call them short legged pointy nosed cats.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> rat trap more like. I think any government that really wanted people to eat more fresh food would publicise the rat problem faced by just about every food factory there is, especially bakeries.
> 
> Fuck, there's actually a maximum quantity of rat hair that's tolerated in flour
> 
> And I suspect that the rats at (actually I'm not going to say where in case I get sued) have interbred with either dogs or badgers. We used to call them short legged pointy tailed cats.


we call them councillors


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> rat trap more like. I think any government that really wanted people to eat more fresh food would publicise the rat problem faced by just about every food factory there is, especially bakeries.
> 
> Fuck, there's actually a maximum quantity of rat hair that's tolerated in flour
> 
> And I suspect that the rats at (actually I'm not going to say where in case I get sued) have interbred with either dogs or badgers. We used to call them short legged pointy nosed cats.


 
A mate worked at Peake Frean in Bermondsey, in the '70s. He reckoned the worst job of all was going to the storage she to get the raw cocoa mass that had been shipped over in hessian. He rekoned that the first couple of inches of each side of the sack-sized block had to be trimmed away and chucked, because it was covered in rat bites, rat shit and (occasionally) decomposing rat.

Put me the fuck off Bourbon Creams, I can tell you!


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## biggus dickus (Apr 17, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> You don't want anything from the state? You're content to rely on private, pay-at-the-point-of-use medicine, then? To send your kids to a fee-paying school? To pay tolls on every major road or motorway you use?
> 
> You'll be one of those people who suddenly becomes engaged when politics has a direct and immediate effect on you, and then you'll be whining "why didn't anyone do something to stop this?", totally forgetting how you "just wanted to be left alone".


 

It's not that I don't agree with NHS, state schools and everything, if I had any say then there would be more money spent on them than there is. I don't have my say though and it's all very well for you saying that 'people like me' are to blame but this is all going on with 'people like you' doing your thing as well, look at this thread, a couple of people troll you a bit and you all close ranks and start talking about chocolate making machines!

I wasn't saying that people shouldn't be doing stuff, people are doing stuff, I was just saying that placards and slogans aren't really doing anything. I don't know if they are even engaging with politics on any sort of level protesting about Dave Cameron or whatever, you might as well protest about how the humans treat the blue people in Avatar


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

Now that would be a valid criticism if anyone, not just on this thread but on the whole of urban - ever - had claimed that placards and slogans on their own did anything.

 You really are shit at this biggus.


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## biggus dickus (Apr 17, 2012)

beg your pardon, logans, placards and giant chocolate machines


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> It's not that I don't agree with NHS, state schools and everything, if I had any say then there would be more money spent on them than there is. I don't have my say though...


 
Why not? What/who is stopping you from having your say?



> ...and it's all very well for you saying that 'people like me' are to blame...


 
You are. You do nothing to tackle problems except perhaps to whine about them. How much energy would it take to write a letter to your MP, or to see your MP at their surgery?



> ...but this is all going on with 'people like you' doing your thing as well...


 
If "people like me" didn't "do our thing", it's likely we'd be even worse off than currently. If it does nothing else, protest signals where the line is drawn.



> ...look at this thread, a couple of people troll you a bit and you all close ranks and start talking about chocolate making machines!


 
Yes, because "we all" did that, didn't we? 



> I wasn't saying that people shouldn't be doing stuff, people are doing stuff, I was just saying that placards and slogans aren't really doing anything. I don't know if they are even engaging with politics on any sort of level protesting about Dave Cameron or whatever, you might as well protest about how the humans treat the blue people in Avatar


 
And you know this, how?  What you say goes absolutely against my experience as a Civil Servant at the Home Office. Politicians are generally very attentive to protest, even though they denounce it in the media. They're attentive because, as I said earlier, even if it does nothing else, protest shows where the line is drawn, and gives politicians a warning as to what might happen when they cross the line.


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## biggus dickus (Apr 17, 2012)

Politicians don't decide anything


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## jakethesnake (Apr 17, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> Politicians don't decide anything


Lizards?


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## biggus dickus (Apr 17, 2012)

jakethesnake said:


> Lizards?


 
women!


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 17, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> The "fashion sense" issue has always tickled me. I left the army and had worn had my fill of olive drab and DPM, and when re-engaging with politics, found that "surplus chic" was running amok. The irony of peacenik types wearing _Bundeswehr_ para boots, shirts and greatcoats never failed to raise an ironic chuckle from me, back in the early to mid '80s. I didn't fancy swapping one uniform for another, so just grew my hair long instead.


 
Army surplus stuff is cheap, well made, lasts better than sweatshop-made rubbish from Primark or wherever and comes in nice muted tones which are generally flattering to pasty vegan complexions. I have been known to wear this sort of stuff but not as a fashion statement.

I do wear para boots but only if I'm out somewhere muddy and doing stuff where their combination of ruggedness, grip and comfort is actually fairly important. I don't wear them around town, partly because it's an anarchist cliche but mostly because they're fucking heavy and the make your feet sweaty and horrible.

e2a: And those big German parkas are just awesome. I've blacked out the German flag on mine though.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> Army surplus stuff is cheap, well made, lasts better than sweatshop-made rubbish from Primark or wherever and comes in nice muted tones which are generally flattering to pasty vegan complexions. I have been known to wear this sort of stuff but not as a fashion statement.


 
Agreed. Still made seeing a veritable "fashion" for wearing it a bit depressing in the '80s, though.



> I do wear para boots but only if I'm out somewhere muddy and doing stuff where their combination of ruggedness, grip and comfort is actually fairly important. I don't wear them around town, partly because it's an anarchist cliche but mostly because they're fucking heavy and the make your feet sweaty and horrible.


 
You get used to the weight of boots if you're wearing them for days on end.  I remember ending up showing a handful of squatpunk-types how to "blouse" their fatigue trousers into their boots properly at a particularly muddy protest. "Where ya learn that, mate?". "In the army". Cue "what, and you're a protester? Fackin' 'ell!".



> e2a: And those big German parkas are just awesome. I've blacked out the German flag on mine though.


 
Easier to just go to your local haberdasher, buy a stitch-picker and take it off.
The best ones are the ones with removeable/washable liners. Some of the _Bundeswehr_ ones have them, some don't, but it's worth picking one out if you can, because you can then tailor the insulation to your needs.


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## Blagsta (Apr 17, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> Army surplus stuff is cheap, well made, lasts better than sweatshop-made rubbish from Primark or wherever and comes in nice muted tones which are generally flattering to pasty vegan complexions. I have been known to wear this sort of stuff but not as a fashion statement.
> 
> I do wear para boots but only if I'm out somewhere muddy and doing stuff where their combination of ruggedness, grip and comfort is actually fairly important. I don't wear them around town, partly because it's an anarchist cliche but mostly because they're fucking heavy and the make your feet sweaty and horrible.
> 
> e2a: And those big German parkas are just awesome. I've blacked out the German flag on mine though.


 
of course its a fashion statement, everything we wear is a statement, how can it not be?


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## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> If this bloke is really the modern day Lord Byron you say he is, why is he in an organisation whose modus operandi revolves around hijacking everyone else's campaigns for the sake of their own publicity? Strange also that someone who went to such lengths to protect jews should have any time for a bunch of anti-semites.


What are your claims that the SWP and its members are anti-semitic based on?


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## fractionMan (Apr 17, 2012)

On a side note, I can make rave powered wind tricycles to order if anyone wants one.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

biggus dickus said:


> beg your pardon, logans, placards and giant chocolate machines


 
Say what you want about marches, placards and slogans, but where I come from dissing the giant chocolate machines is fighting talk


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> What are your claims that the SWP and its members are anti-semitic based on?


 
Probably Harry's Place.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

They did invite Gilad Atzmon to marxism one year iirc but I can't remember if they cancelled?


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## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

I think curly is going to have to do rather better than that.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I dunno, shouting "we are all hezbollah" on demos, though that's not anti-semitism as such, it's just simplistic crap.


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## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2012)

Of course it is. However the claim is that the party and its members are anti-semitic. I think that's the sort of thing you have to either back up or take back. And preferably do a bit of growing up in the process.


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yeah, that's a pretty fucking serious accusation.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 17, 2012)

It's also completely and utterly untrue. The only people I've heard making that argument base it on their opposition to Zionism, which would make me, and I suspect most of the people on these boards, antisemitic too.

Of course they have a fairly simplistic brand of "anti-imperialism" and this comes out when they talk about Israel. But that's because they're stupid, not because they're antisemitic.


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## cantsin (Apr 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah, that's a pretty fucking serious accusation.


 

and one that anyone who actually knows any Swappies would knows is total rubbish, but then Spookeyfrank is a total fraud


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## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2012)

Doesn't look like he has the personal or political integrity to either back up or take back his claim does it?


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## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm no fan of the SWP's politics and they've made some pretty serious mistakes over the years but they're not anti-semitic. It's fucking dangerous to throw those kinds of accusations around lightly.


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## rekil (Apr 28, 2012)

From one of the protests in Chile last year. The chess types here might appreciate it.


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## biggus dickus (Apr 28, 2012)

copliker said:


> From one of the protests in Chile last year. The chess types here might appreciate it.


 
I saw that happening in capitalism once


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## audiotech (Apr 28, 2012)

frogwoman said:
			
		

> .....don't forget that about 3-4 million+ people are in unions...


It's 6.4 million.

Here's the latest figures, public and private sector and density breakdown in a report from 2011:

http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscor...docs/t/12-p77-trade-union-membership-2011.pdf


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## frogwoman (Apr 29, 2012)

audiotech said:


> It's 6.4 million.
> 
> Here's the latest figures, public and private sector and density breakdown in a report from 2011:
> 
> http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscor...docs/t/12-p77-trade-union-membership-2011.pdf


 
exactly, which proves my point even more


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