# Brady's, Brixton (Railway Hotel): history, chat and plans



## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

Brady's was closed down in the late 1990s and has remained derelict since squatters were evicted in 2002.

What would it take to get this building open as a community area, available for hire by commercial events and operating on a not-for-profit basis?


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## editor (Sep 7, 2005)

I'd say reopening the pub as an arts-based community bar could be a winner.

Cooltan had already proved the demand for live theatre/performance art/poetry/gigs whatever and - thinking selfishly for a moment - it would be the ideal home for Offline!

There's a ton of talent in Brixton but far too few live venues. Despite its huge theatrical history, there's nothing here at all now AFAIK - an upstairs theatre at Brady's could be a real asset to the community.

As for costing, it might be an idea to talk to the previous squatters who did a great job of sorting the venue out.


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## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

What happened to the owners?


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## dogmatique (Sep 7, 2005)

The state the clocktower is in at the moment is a crying shame.  Should be a well loved local landmark, not a grafitti covered wreck like it is.


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## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> The state the clocktower is in at the moment is a crying shame.  Should be a well loved local landmark, not a grafitti covered wreck like it is.



It's amazing that I can't find any info about the clocktower on the net other than a link from Urban that it is listed.
Does anyone have anything from the archives or is it worth getting in touch with www.brixtonsociety.org?


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## kea (Sep 7, 2005)

"You can ring the Listed Buildings Information Service on 020 7208 8221 who will fax you a copy of the listing for one particular building after a three day delay. You can see lists covering your local area and obtain copies of individual entries at your local council planning department, County Council offices and most local reference libraries. The full English national list is kept by English Heritage at the National Monuments Record, Kemble Drive, Swindon SN2 2GZ."

www.heritage.co.uk


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## IntoStella (Sep 7, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I'd say reopening the pub as an arts-based community bar could be a winner.
> 
> Cooltan had already proved the demand for live theatre/performance art/poetry/gigs whatever and - thinking selfishly for a moment - it would be the ideal home for Offline!
> 
> ...


 They did a great job but everything was done on a shoestring in a very ad hoc way.

I think this needs to be done properly, like the Raleigh Hall work. Proper surveys, feasibility studies, HLF grant applications etc.

One thing that I think should be prioritised is getting the clock tower listed. I seem to recall we have discussed this here before. If there is enough weight of  local support/feeling then it should be a goer?  

We also need to find out what the council is actually intending to do with it. This is never very easy with Lambeth but anything on paper should hopefully be accessible  by putting in a Freedom of Information request. 

Where's Rabbie? He knows all about this sort of thing.

I think the editor is pretty much right about the community bar/venue idea as a useful and realistic objective but then, of course, you've got to find out what the community really wants.

But first things first. The council may not want to co-operate at all. Depends what their plans are. We'd have to know what we were actually taking on (by getting access for a start)  before setting out any realistic aims. I don't know how bad a state of disrepair it's in these days. 

It is a tricky one and no mistaking. 

Sorry if all this sounds overly pessimistic.  It's not that I don't want to see it happen --  I passionately want to see it happen. It's just not a quick stroll in the park, that's all. 

Are the talented and motivated peple of u75 up to making something happen?


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## IntoStella (Sep 7, 2005)

kea said:
			
		

> "You can ring the Listed Buildings Information Service on 020 7208 8221 who will fax you a copy of the listing for one particular building after a three day delay. You can see lists covering your local area and obtain copies of individual entries at your local council planning department, County Council offices and most local reference libraries. The full English national list is kept by English Heritage at the National Monuments Record, Kemble Drive, Swindon SN2 2GZ."
> 
> www.heritage.co.uk


 I went to the planning office with AK last year to look it up and it's not listed.


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## kea (Sep 7, 2005)

fair enough, just addressing citydream's questions. perhaps the first thing to do is set out what's known about it / the situation / its condition / owners / etc?


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## IntoStella (Sep 7, 2005)

kea said:
			
		

> fair enough, just addressing citydream's questions.


  I wasn't being argumentative .  

You'd be forgiven for assuming the clocktower at least was listed -- I think a lot of people do -- but it isn't.  It should be. I'm sure we discussed this before with our resident Lambeth experts. Rabbie? Bob? Pooka? I can't remember. Senile. 





> perhaps the first thing to do is set out what's known about it / the situation / its condition / owners / etc?


Quite. It's a bit like finding the end of a ball of wool but far from impossible.


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## kea (Sep 7, 2005)

no, i know, i was just trying to make the point that citydreams is commendably enthusiastic but perhaps needs to be brought 'up to speed' (to use management consultant speak  ) on the current situation. (as do others who are interested, presumably - not singling them out in particular!)


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## flameacademy (Sep 7, 2005)

i think you can get some of that info from The Land Regsitry - online - but costs a fiver or something...


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## flameacademy (Sep 7, 2005)

Here you go

http://www.landregisteronline.gov.uk/


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## IntoStella (Sep 7, 2005)

flameacademy said:
			
		

> i think you can get some of that info from The Land Regsitry - online - but costs a fiver or something...


Am I right in thinking LR can do free land registry searches? I hate to admit it but I don't even have a credit/debit card. 

If it's only 2 quid I'll reimburse somebody for doing it. In full!


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## kea (Sep 7, 2005)

i remember him having done so in the past i think .... (i read a lot of his threads even tho i have nothing to contribute to them!!)


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## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

*


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## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

flameacademy said:
			
		

> Here you go
> 
> http://www.landregisteronline.gov.uk/



Ok.. I'll give it a whirl


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## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

TITLE NUMBER : TGL187911
B PROPRIETORSHIP REGISTER
This register specifies the class of title and identifies the owner. It
contains any entries that affect the right of disposal.
TITLE ABSOLUTE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 (26.04.2001) PROPRIETOR: =THE MAYOR AND BURGESSES OF THE LONDON
BOROUGH OF +LAMBETH+= of Lambeth Town Hall, Brixton, London SW2 1RW.


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## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

shit. I don't know if I've got the wrong records 
the above is for 22 to 26 (even) Atlantic Road, land to the rear of
18 to 36 (even) Electric Avenue, and land on the
east side of Electric Lane, Brixton


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## IntoStella (Sep 7, 2005)

> _ From Brixton Central newsletter, October 2004 (unpublished) _
> 
> *Regeneration charity aims to save landmark*
> 
> ...


Ohhhh, the irony. Never mind. A year has passed and I'm raring to give it another go.


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## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

well. I've double checked and this is supposed to be for Brady's. I can see the public house on the plans.


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## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

> Lambeth now plans to pull down this beautiful Victorian building, whose six-sided clocktower is a Brixton landmark, and build flats on the site.



Not a chance!


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## IntoStella (Sep 7, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> shit. I don't know if I've got the wrong records
> the above is for 22 to 26 (even) Atlantic Road, land to the rear of
> 18 to 36 (even) Electric Avenue, and land on the
> east side of Electric Lane, Brixton


 Yeah, that's the one. 

So we know it is still definitely owned (freehold) by the council. Good. Now we need to know what their intentions are.  AFAIK they want to pull it down and build new flats, but I don't have documentary proof of that.


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## lang rabbie (Sep 7, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> What happened to the owners?



I have a sneaking suspicion that it may be owned by Lambeth, with a housing association having an option on the site.

IIRC the (very sketchy) plans were determibed by the need to leave space for the proposed lifts/escalators to new platforms on the high level railway - now dropped by TfL.




			
				hatboy on 2004 community centre thread said:
			
		

> These plans, which are the latest info from Lambeth council, make no provision for Bradys as a venue. They will involve demolishing the gig room.
> 
> "Bradys/Phase 2 -
> 
> ...



Edited to add:   post now  superfluous - that's what happens when work gets in the way of composing something on U75


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## IntoStella (Sep 7, 2005)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> I have a sneaking suspicion that it may be owned by Lambeth, with a housing association having an option on the site.


Any idea which HA?


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## kea (Sep 7, 2005)

if you can tell me which HA, i can phone them in my 'official capacity' and ask what they want to do with it; might jolt them along or reveal something.


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## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

```
A. Guinness Trust Group
020 7582 6474 Rupert House
225 Kennington Rd
London, SE11 6SU
0.2 mi N - Directions 
    
B. Kennington Park House
020 7582 9522 Kennington Park Place
London, SE11 4JT
0.3 mi SE - Directions 
    
C. Presentation
0845 8800110 47-49 Durham St
London, SE11 5JA
0.4 mi SW - Directions 
    
D. Vine Housing Co-op
020 7793 7564 37 Bonnington Square
London, SW8 1TF
0.5 mi SW - Directions 
  References: housingcorp.gov.uk - 5 more » 
 
E. Broadway Manor Place
020 7703 6898 140 Manor Place
London, SE17 3BH
0.5 mi E - Directions 
  References: broadwaylondon.org - 1 more » 
 
F. Eaves Housing For Women
020 7735 2062 Lincoln House 1-3 Brixton Rd
London, SW9 6DE
0.6 mi S - Directions 
    
G. Peabody Trust
020 7021 4000 45 Westminster Bridge Rd
London, SE1 7JB
0.6 mi N - Directions 
  References: peabody.org.uk - 87 more » 
 
H. Central & Cecil Housing Trust
020 7922 5300 Cecil House
266 Waterloo Rd
London, SE1 8RQ
0.7 mi N - Directions 
  References: ccht.org.uk - 34 more » 
 
I. Anchor Trust
020 7582 3184 Bernard Sunley House
21 South Island Place
London, SW9 0DY
0.8 mi S - Directions 
    
J. Harding Housing Association
020 7735 2218 Ashton House Chryssell Rd
London, SW9 6NE
0.8 mi S - Directions
```


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## kea (Sep 7, 2005)

that's a lot of housing associations. which one relates to brady's?

edit: oh i see, you've just searched for those with offices near brixton. you do know that many housing associations operate across the city and indeed across the country, don't you? hence it's quite possible it's none of the above.


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## gaijingirl (Sep 7, 2005)

I would definitely be interested in getting involved in this.


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## Bob (Sep 7, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> I wasn't being argumentative .
> 
> You'd be forgiven for assuming the clocktower at least was listed -- I think a lot of people do -- but it isn't.  It should be. I'm sure we discussed this before with our resident Lambeth experts. Rabbie? Bob? Pooka? I can't remember. Senile. Quite. It's a bit like finding the end of a ball of wool but far from impossible.



I'm touched I'm considered an expert!    I can't remember anything beyond what's already been mentioned on this thread. I have dropped an email to somebody I might know at Lambeth who might know. It's a crying shame that the building isn't being used for something decent. I'd be quite happy if it were private sector as long it's something interesting like a live music venue or theatre. Just please not a bland block of flats or boring chain store   

An FOI request would work but iirc my first one (submitted January) on what property Lambeth owns on CH lane was lost.


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## IntoStella (Sep 7, 2005)

Bob said:
			
		

> An FOI request would work but iirc my first one (submitted January) on what property Lambeth owns on CH lane was lost.


Is there any end to Lambeth's bloody cheek? Do they honestly expect you to believe that? 

Note to self: make sure any FoI requests are sent recorded delivery.

Thanks for asking your friend.


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## editor (Sep 7, 2005)

Of course, the even bigger disgrace is Cooltan.

Oh yes - far better to kick out the squatters who had created a thriving, much-loved and wel used community arts centre and replace them with a rotting crack den of an eyesore for the best part of a decade.


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## Bob (Sep 7, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Is there any end to Lambeth's bloody cheek? Do they honestly expect you to believe that?
> 
> Note to self: make sure any FoI requests are sent recorded delivery.
> 
> Thanks for asking your friend.



Lost in the sense of they never bothered replying.... let alone saying sorry for not replying - I just haven't got round to resubmitting it! 

A pleasure.


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## Bob (Sep 7, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Of course, the even bigger disgrace is Cooltan.
> 
> Oh yes - far better to kick out the squatters who had created a thriving, much-loved and wel used community arts centre and replace them with a rotting crack den of an eyesore for the best part of a decade.



To be fair the developers have been busy trying to get it demolished!   

Hopefully they won't appeal to John Prescott (or whoever the planning inspector above Lameth is - Kea?). If they do we can expect a) even more delays, b) Prescott to approve the 12 storey stuff on the grounds that he loves big buildings...


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## editor (Sep 7, 2005)

Wasn't the Cooltan replacement turned down on grounds of it being of poor construction?
Not sure if Brixton needs a big 12 storey building built on the cheap. 

Couldn't see much wrong with the original building when it was first evicted, come to think of it.


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## Bob (Sep 7, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Wasn't the Cooltan replacement turned down on grounds of it being of poor construction?
> Not sure if Brixton needs a big 12 storey building built on the cheap.
> 
> Couldn't see much wrong with the original building when it was first evicted, come to think of it.



Poor construction plus about 10 other reasons to do with it being not in tune with  the character of the area... I think they're appealing to the council - though tbh I've slightly lost track.

Incidentally I'm trying to get that rubbish strewn bit in front cleared up. Strangely the council can force the private owners to do this...


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## Giles (Sep 7, 2005)

Did the council compulsorily-purchase it with a view to doing something big and probably awful with the site? Or what?

How did it end up being bought and then left closed by Lambeth? Does anyone know who owned it before the council did? A brewery? The landlord?

It seems wrong to me that they can use the taxpayer's money to buy a place like this and then just sit on it for years.

What a waste.

Giles..


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## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

There wasn't much information on the title documents from the land-registry. Where it should have said the purchase price was "Price Stated : Not Available"

There had been an ammendment to the lease on one of the properties covered in this title on the 16th Feb this year.

If anyone wants a copy to peruse and make sense of then PM me your addy and I'll wing them across.


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## Giles (Sep 7, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> There wasn't much information on the title documents from the land-registry. Where it should have said the purchase price was "Price Stated : Not Available"
> 
> There had been an ammendment to the lease on one of the properties covered in this title on the 16th Feb this year.
> 
> If anyone wants a copy to peruse and make sense of then PM me your addy and I'll wing them across.



I think the Land Registry only started keeping price information quite recently (last year or two). There was a flurry of articles in the papers about it, because it meant that nosey people could find out what their neighbours house just got sold for.

Giles..


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## lang rabbie (Sep 7, 2005)

It seems Swan Hill Properties were to have been Lambeth's development partner

Proctor and Matthews Architects would have been the architects



> The design extends the urban morphology of Brixton - the distinctive network of streets, arcades and alleyways - by introducing a new pedestrian link at ground level, which bisects the site from Electric Lane to Atlantic Road. This forms an `interchange' connection between the London Underground Station to the west and the overland railway station to the North-East. The proposed route provides a continuation of the Brixton Arcade across Electric Lane, into a new space at the centre of the scheme (and marked by the `circus `of residential apartments above) and discharging onto Atlantic Road at the foot of the railway platform stairs and entrance into the station.



Brixton Central Site - site plan

Brixton Central Site - Perspective


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## IntoStella (Sep 7, 2005)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> It seems Swan Hill Properties were to have been Lambeth's development partner
> 
> Proctor and Matthews Architects would have been the architects
> 
> ...


So have all these plans been completely scuppered now?


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## Giles (Sep 7, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> So have all these plans been completely scuppered now?



I hope so. Why not just do up the pub and venue? 

You could probably make a few flats out of the upper floors (it was a hotel previously after all).

Giles..


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## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

It might be a long (cheap) shot, but could we obtain a list of famous artists that have played at Brady's?

I know Hendrix was known to be a regular, and, well, the Hendrix family have just won their case against Purple Haze Records ltd link and may be up for extending his memorial after Jimi's Woodstock CD is released.


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## Dubversion (Sep 7, 2005)

the best person to ask for recent years would be twisted, who used to run the Twisted AM lounge down there. i saw dozens of bands over the years, most of whom i can't bloody remember 

definitely The Cardiacs, definitely Alabama 3 and various incarnations..

as for the distant past, i really don't know


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## citydreams (Sep 7, 2005)

Just been going over an old Brady thread.  It's got some great links to community projects such as Shoreditch Our Way and the Community Gateway Association




			
				miss FX said:
			
		

> This is the stripped down version which I think could be expanded on, carefully. . .
> 
> (a) The first and main Object of the Charity is to promote urban regeneration by bringing neglected properties back into use primarily in Lambeth but not excluding deprived neighbourhoods elsewhere in South London.
> 
> ...



Did a charity ever get set up?

 nice photo


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## Bob (Sep 8, 2005)

This is proving to be a bit of voyage of discovery. 

The plans for the site apparently were shorlisted for the Property Week Retail Property Awards in 2000 for high density development - as far as I can see these are the abandoned plans.

Random bit of trivia: The property adviser for Lambeth was somebody who disciplined his Kings Charles Spaniels by biting them on the ears.

But nothing else in the public domain at all I can find. However my contact at the council is turning up interesting stuff so I should be able to report more in the next 24 hours...


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## lang rabbie (Sep 8, 2005)

Bob said:
			
		

> The plans for the site apparently were shorlisted for the Property Week Retail Property Awards in 2000 for high density development - as far as I can see these are the abandoned plans.



http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/intradoc/groups/public/documents/pressrelease/002936.htm

No, that was Phase 1 - also developed in "partnership" with Swan Hill.  It's the building containing the Sainsbury's Local, WH Smith, Argos and Carphone Warehouse  and the desolate Sainsbury's stockroom occupying the glazed first floor.


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## IntoStella (Sep 8, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> Just been going over an old Brady thread.  It's got some great links to community projects such as Shoreditch Our Way and the Community Gateway Association
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. I was a founder member.  Unfortunately it got taken over by fuckwits, one of whom threw me out of my home last Christmas because I didn't agree with their anti-democratic, self serving and extremely dodgy schemes. The poster you quote is one of them.  You live and learn. 

Incidentally, the charity was originally anna key's idea and he did all the legwork towards setting it up. I only wish we had been more careful who we invited to be involved in it. There was an excellent steering committee in the early days but they too got told to fuck off, depite their expertise and commitment.

It was all quite an unvelievable state of affairs, really.


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## Bob (Sep 8, 2005)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/intradoc/groups/public/documents/pressrelease/002936.htm
> 
> No, that was Phase 1 - also developed in "partnership" with Swan Hill.  It's the building containing the Sainsbury's Local, WH Smith, Argos and Carphone Warehouse  and the desolate Sainsbury's stockroom occupying the glazed first floor.



Is the agreement with Swan Hill anywhere on the website?


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 8, 2005)

Apols if someone has posted this already, but if you go to the Lambeth Planning Database and enter the application number 00/00237/FUL you can view the planning application - which was approved in 2001 - to demolish the building except from the Brady's frontage. 

WHatever happens, they may have to get their skates on - interestingly, the planning permission runs out on 09/10/2006.


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## citydreams (Sep 8, 2005)

If there was a new planning application on this property, say for flats, would we be able to find that out from the planning office on acre lane?


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## citydreams (Sep 8, 2005)

I've trawled through the planning.lambeth.gov.uk as far back as jul-2003 and can't see any planning request for the change in lease that was made in Jan this year


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## lang rabbie (Sep 8, 2005)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> IIRC the (very sketchy) plans were determined by the need to leave space for the proposed lifts/escalators to new platforms on the high level railway - now dropped by TfL.



Actually, I may have got this the wrong way around    - the previous council had signed up to the Swan Hill scheme, which got full planning consent, but apparently doesn't include any provision for a link to the high level railway.

Then, when the East London Line extension got switched from the Peckham-Streatham-Wimbledon route to Peckham-Clapham Junction via LJ and Brixton, Lambeth started lobbying to get the high level platforms funded as part of the project - it was probably a very sketchy drawing for that which I saw.
I assume that the "Central Site" scheme was put on hold until TfL's full needs had been identified.

Since then TfL has refused to fund the high level platforms as part of ELL phase II, because they claim the engineering costs would be so high.


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## pooka (Sep 8, 2005)

Perhaps the upper floors could be used for the drug rehab that the Brighton Tce residents are up in arms about?


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## lang rabbie (Sep 8, 2005)

pooka said:
			
		

> Perhaps the upper floors could be used for the drug rehab that the Brighton Tce residents are up in arms about?



Unforunately, the PCT (health trust) seem to be have ruled out any site that doesn't have space for a ground floor reception as not complying with the Disability Discrimination Act.


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## pooka (Sep 8, 2005)

There's some sense in that, I guess.


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## IntoStella (Sep 8, 2005)

pooka said:
			
		

> Perhaps the upper floors could be used for the drug rehab that the Brighton Tce residents are up in arms about?


 Perhaps residents in Brighton Terrace shouldn't be such NIMBYs.  

I mostly agree with the editor (rather than AK, shock horror), that the orignal vision set out last year was perhaps too all-encompassing and insufficiently focused, including as it did a music school, rehab facilities, careers training, theatre space and gawd alone knows what else. But I think it is too early to be prescriptive about what the space should be. That should be a matter of  public consultation.


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## editor (Sep 8, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> But I think it is too early to be prescriptive about what the space should be. That should be a matter of  public consultation.


I'm a complete stranger to these things, but wouldn't it be better to mine the collective knowledge of long term Brixtonites to forge an exciting, fired-with-enthusiasm, cohesive, working plan of what the place might be and _then_ present that to the community for their feedback rather than starting from a blank sheet?

Or is that just my impatient _get on with it _punk rock nature rearing its head?


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## oryx (Sep 8, 2005)

Just to say this is a really interesting & worthwhile thread. I used to go to Brady's a lot in the mid-late 90s & it was a fantastic venue, with that great big room in the middle. Lots of happy memories of good nights including being served once at 7.30 a.m. (should that be   ,   , or  ?) - how _did_ they manage those hours?!

I just hope it can be turned into a decent venue again as it's being left to rot is shameful.


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## netbob (Sep 8, 2005)

Why doesnt soemone set something up on Pledgebank.com to lobby the council to do something with it?


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## Bob (Sep 8, 2005)

memespring said:
			
		

> Why doesnt soemone set something up on Pledgebank.com to lobby the council to do something with it?



Hang on 24 hours & I should have a definitive answer about where the council is about this... I'm going somewhere tonight where I should be able to find out.   

<Bob dons his disguise>


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## IntoStella (Sep 8, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I'm a complete stranger to these things, but wouldn't it be better to mine the collective knowledge of long term Brixtonites to forge an exciting, fired-with-enthusiasm, cohesive, working plan of what the place might be and _then_ present that to the community for their feedback rather than starting from a blank sheet?Or is that just my impatient _get on with it _punk rock nature rearing its head?


 What's the difference between "min[ing] the collective knowledge of long term Brixtonites" and local public consultation?  

More specifically than 'something like Cooltan', what would you like to see?


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## IntoStella (Sep 8, 2005)

memespring said:
			
		

> Why doesnt soemone set something up on Pledgebank.com to lobby the council to do something with it?


I hadn't even heard of it before. I'll have a butcher's.

Bob -- nice one. Cheers. 







_Bob gets ready to go out_


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## IntoStella (Sep 8, 2005)

oryx said:
			
		

> Just to say this is a really interesting & worthwhile thread. I used to go to Brady's a lot in the mid-late 90s & it was a fantastic venue, with that great big room in the middle. Lots of happy memories of good nights including being served once at 7.30 a.m. (should that be   ,   , or  ?)


Oohhhh, the memories. Ohhhh, the headache.


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## editor (Sep 8, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> What's the difference between "min[ing] the collective knowledge of long term Brixtonites" and local public consultation?
> 
> More specifically than 'something like Cooltan', what would you like to see?


Maybe I don't know the correct terms, but "local public consultation" sounds like starting with a blank sheet and then going around with a clipboard asking people questions about what they may like. That sounds like it might take forever.

My preference would be to to get a small team of people on-board with hands on experience and/or tons of enthusiasm, thrash out a realistic, workable, achievable plan that we agree on, designate roles and then present the idea to the target audience for their opinion/feedback (and amend/rip up plans if necessary)

But that's how I like to work in teams, so maybe my approach is incompatible with how you like to do things.

Seeing as you asked, my ideal would be to have a community venue that offers things like live performance/theatre/kids space and daytime cafe with a bar in the evening.

I'd like there to be rehearsal space/workshop space/cheap rooms for hire to  community projects. Fuck, I've got a ton of ideas, some of them good, some of them no doubt crap and/or impractical.

But I would say Cooltan is as good a template to work from as any. It certainly  proved a good reference point for my Offline nights!


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## netbob (Sep 8, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> I hadn't even heard of it before. I'll have a butcher's.



Its a great site - I used it to get people to write to Kate Hoey about the countryside alliance job: http://www.pledgebank.com/katehoey  

You can read their letters here to prove it worked: http://www.katehoey.co.uk/2005/08/pledge_success.html


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## IntoStella (Sep 8, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Maybe I don't know the correct terms, but "local public consultation" sounds like starting with a blank sheet and then going around with a clipboard asking people questions about what they may like. That sounds like it might take forever.
> 
> My preference would be to to get a small team of people on-board with hands on experience and/or tons of enthusiasm, thrash out a realistic, workable, achievable plan that we agree on, designate roles and then present the idea to the target audience for their opinion/feedback (and amend/rip up plans if necessary)
> 
> ...


Sounds good. Glad to see you're so enthusiastic about it.


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## Bob (Sep 8, 2005)

I'm back, out of my cloak and have news, 90% good (IMHO)  


The story requires remembering some key things:
1. In 2002 council control went from Labour to Lib Dem
2. In 2006 there will be council elections
3. Everything relating to the tube is very complicated and isn't just to do with Transport for London, but also the private companies that run the tube.
4. The council has £500m or so of debt so in most circumstances just does whatever raises most cash / costs least whoever is in control.
5. This is written by a lib dem who has talked to lib dems, so if you're paranoid you may not believe me.


*1. The past*

Right back in 1999 or so a plan was hatched by the then Labour council with the tube to combine Bradys with the site next door that is the outlet for stale air from the tube plus a small yard round it. It is this yard (+Bradys) that the plans relate to.

At various stages the tube have thought they'll need different bits of space depending on things like where escalators are so this has held up everything.

While the council own the land the pre 2002 council sold the exclusive rights to develop the  site (including the tube bit in some way I don't understand) to Swan Hill for about five years.

While the tube was being redeveloped (still not quite finished) the private company couldn't start building since half the potential site was being used.

*
2. The future.*
The exclusive rights expire soon - possibly at the end of this year (I haven't clarified this yet)

Once the rights expire the council can do what it likes with Bradys.

The council will basically have three options:

1. Give it over to something completely non profit (Very unlikely given the councils debts)

2. Sell the site but subject to the ground floor (or ground and first) being given over to a pub / theatre etc. with the rest open to other uses -probably flats.

3. Sell the site with no restrictions.



*3. Good news / bad news*
Good news is:
The relevant responsible Executive member (councillor) Andrew Sawdon used to drink at Bradys and wants to see it back as a pub
Anyone who isn't in charge of Lambeths budget would want something that is either 1 or 2 in some combination

Bad news is:
option 3 would bring in a bit more money - so other councillors may force this regardless of what party is in power.




*Conclusion:
*
A campaign for the pub being returned in some sort would probably be successful.

The closer to 2 it is the more likely success will be IMHO - though I can understand lobbying for 1.

The electoral cycle is quite good for getting commitments from all the parties on this.

So I think we should have a campaign that as the bottom line is lobbying for Bradys back as a pub.


----------



## citydreams (Sep 8, 2005)

Bob said:
			
		

> While the council own the land the pre 2002 council sold the exclusive rights to develop the  site (including the tube bit in some way I don't understand) to Swan Hill for about five years.



they've got on their website that the project cost £6.5m, which isn't bad seeming as they've not done anything.

I wonder whether there is a bind on the type of development that Swan Hill can do


----------



## Bob (Sep 8, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> they've got on their website that the project cost £6.5m, which isn't bad seeming as they've not done anything.
> 
> I wonder whether there is a bind on the type of development that Swan Hill can do



I think that's what it would cost if the development happened not just for them doing the plans.

Development they can do would be subject to their own plans I'd guess.


----------



## citydreams (Sep 8, 2005)

but if they paid an option to develop that land it must be according an agreed definition.. well, maybe not must, but hopefully


----------



## Bob (Sep 9, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> but if they paid an option to develop that land it must be according an agreed definition.. well, maybe not must, but hopefully



Dunno. The important thing is that soon the land is free, free do you hear?


----------



## citydreams (Sep 9, 2005)

could asking for info on the deal through FOI scare the council into doing something quick sharp?


----------



## Bob (Sep 9, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> could asking for info on the deal through FOI scare the council into doing something quick sharp?



You could try. Or I could (as the resident FOI nerd). The problem is that contracts are reasonably well protected through FOI - especiallly for things that haven't happened. You define the request and I'll manage it if you like!


----------



## kea (Sep 9, 2005)

sounds positive  so the suggestions about a housing association being involved were baseless, then?


----------



## Bob (Sep 9, 2005)

kea said:
			
		

> sounds positive  so the suggestions about a housing association being involved were baseless, then?



Yup. Incidentally in terms of speed of stuff being sorted out option 2 is the one that will get the pub back into use quickest. The council could sell it to a pub owner who would sort it out very quickly.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 9, 2005)

Nice, work, Bob. Hmmmm. Plenty of food for thought there. Sawdon seems all right. For a lib dem, anyway.


----------



## citydreams (Sep 14, 2005)

So, all those in favour of doing more than sitting on our arses while this building rots,
we're planning on *meeting* up for a drink or two on

*the evening of Wednesday, September 28th at the Trinity pub, 7:30ish*


----------



## Bob (Sep 14, 2005)

I'll be there. Hopefully should have found out a definitive answer on the date that the exclusive rights expire by then.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 14, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Nice, work, Bob. Hmmmm. Plenty of food for thought there. Sawdon seems all right. For a lib dem, anyway.


I've known him for nearly 25 years. He's got some really valuable youth projects off the ground in that time, which are all still thriving. The best thing about him is that he'll only say he'll do things if he actually can. You know exactly where you are with Andrew Sawdon.


----------



## Bob (Sep 14, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> I've known him for nearly 25 years. He's got some really valuable youth projects off the ground in that time, which are all still thriving. The best thing about him is that he'll only say he'll do things if he actually can. You know exactly where you are with Andrew Sawdon.



More proof that you know everyone.


----------



## Bob (Sep 14, 2005)

Food for thought for everyone. Once we know a bit more we probably need a fairly simple petition along these lines - comments welcome. I've intentionally made it so that a wide variety of people will be happy to sign it and it is likely to be supported by all three parties on the council. In other words this is designed to build consensus - which is why it doesn't & shouldn't have a lot in it.




> We the undersigned call on the council to:
> 
> 1.	Make sure that Brady’s is brought rapidly back into use.
> 2.	Not link any development plans to the neighbouring site, which is likely to cause significant delays.
> 3.	Protect the main use of Brady’s as a pub or for entertainment purposes such as a theatre through conditions in the lease as well as through planning permission.


----------



## citydreams (Sep 14, 2005)

..would love to add a condition tying the use of one of the rooms as a community space.

The SLP made mention of the new Weir Link Project - a Lambeth backed £2million community centre in Clapham.  Going to look it up and see if they can offer any support.


----------



## linerider (Sep 14, 2005)

one thing that hasn't been talked about much is the state of the place.even when it was last squated it was in an appalling state of repair.the electrics,gas and water would have to be completly redone,but worse still is the state of the floors/ceilings,there is a very good chance that the place would have to be completly gutted and rebuilt which would cost a lot of money.
i love bradys and would love to see it back,but to talk about what should be done with the place without taking cost into account is a waste of time.


----------



## citydreams (Sep 14, 2005)

but then, how is it possible to know what is feasible without getting a proper evaluation done?  and why would the council bother doing that when it can just sell the land off as a commercial interest?


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 14, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> So, all those in favour of doing more than sitting on our arses while this building rots,
> we're planning on *meeting* up for a drink or two on
> 
> *the evening of Wednesday, September 28th at a location yet to be decided*


 Oooh, you're so masterful. 

If the Albert is too loud, what about the Trin? Dull on a Friday night but good for political machinations.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 14, 2005)

linerider said:
			
		

> one thing that hasn't been talked about much is the state of the place.even when it was last squated it was in an appalling state of repair.the electrics,gas and water would have to be completly redone,but worse still is the state of the floors/ceilings,there is a very good chance that the place would have to be completly gutted and rebuilt which would cost a lot of money.
> i love bradys and would love to see it back,but to talk about what should be done with the place without taking cost into account is a waste of time.


This is the chicken and egg aspect of projects like this but it is not insurmountable.

Basically you have got to know what work needs to be done and how much it will cost (as well as what you intend to do with the place) before you can realistically apply for grants, ie Heritage Lottery Fund and various EC regeneration grants, to pay for it. Nobody is suggesting we find the money ourselves. We couldn't. There is still masses of regeneration money around, but the only way to proceed with any prospect of long term success is to do everything by the book in terms of surveys, feasibility studies, etc.  Grants are available to pay for these as well.

BCA spent about 5 million quid of HLF money just on a feasibility study for Raleigh Hall. It may seem crazy but that is how it is done. A project as big as Brady's has got to be carried out and funded properly.


----------



## lang rabbie (Sep 14, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> The SLP made mention of the new Weir Link Project - a Lambeth backed £2million community centre in Clapham.  Going to look it up and see if they can offer any support.



Revamp for rats' haven? 

Although they can tell you how they set up the project, I suspect they would be in competition for the same funds - Lambeth hasn't actually stumped up much cash so far for the project.

It's a former estate hall that has been derelict for a decade.   The project has only been kept going by the persistence of a local vicar, and the fact that in one of the  most marginal wards in the borough, split between Labour and the Lib Dems, it has backing of all the local councillors.

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure Lambeth housing would have demolished it by now and transferred the site to a housing association for new social housing, probably without any new facilties for the estate.


----------



## citydreams (Sep 14, 2005)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> Revamp for rats' haven?





> A council spokesman said it had no "firm plans" for the land.
> 
> "Once a proposal has been submitted we will consider leasing the land to the group but at this stage there is no commitment from us."



Shocking!  No commitment for a community centre?  I really am naive.


----------



## lang rabbie (Sep 14, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> BCA spent about *5 million quid * of HLF money just on a feasibility study for Raleigh Hall.



 




			
				Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) website said:
			
		

> Project Details
> Project: Raleigh Hall development for Black Cultural Archives
> Applicant: Black Cultural Archives
> Programme: Project Planning Grants
> ...



I think that English Heritage gave Lambeth an earlier grant to make the Raleigh Hall building watertight, but that was a six figure sum at most.

Edited to add: AFAIK, BCA also got £344,000 from the HLF back in 1999 under their guise as "National Museum & Archives of Black History & Culture" for improved conservation/storage facilities for their collection.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 14, 2005)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> I think that English Heritage gave Lambeth an earlier grant to make the Raleigh Hall building watertight, but that was a six figure sum at most.
> 
> Edited to add: AFAIK, BCA also got £344,000 from the HLF back in 1999 under their guise as "National Museum & Archives of Black History & Culture" for improved conservation/storage facilities for their collection.


I was sure that figure  was quoted at the BAF meeting about this time last year. But maybe that was a projected figure of funds still to be applied for.


----------



## citydreams (Sep 14, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Oooh, you're so masterful.



but I'm putty in your hands.  The Trinity it is then


----------



## Bob (Sep 14, 2005)

Lang Rabbie? Can we tempt the guru of all things council along?


----------



## gaijingirl (Sep 14, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> but I'm putty in your hands.  The Trinity it is then



I'll come... let us know nearer what time to be there!


----------



## linerider (Sep 14, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> This is the chicken and egg aspect of projects like this but it is not insurmountable.
> 
> Basically you have got to know what work needs to be done and how much it will cost (as well as what you intend to do with the place) before you can realistically apply for grants, ie Heritage Lottery Fund and various EC regeneration grants, to pay for it. Nobody is suggesting we find the money ourselves. We couldn't. There is still masses of regeneration money around, but the only way to proceed with any prospect of long term success is to do everything by the book in terms of surveys, feasibility studies, etc.  Grants are available to pay for these as well.
> 
> BCA spent about 5 million quid of HLF money just on a feasibility study for Raleigh Hall. It may seem crazy but that is how it is done. A project as big as Brady's has got to be carried out and funded properly.


I agree that we have to do something and will gladly get involved,i like alot of other people believe that bradys is a brixton institution and should be returned to being a community resource.
i worked at bradys for it's last 6 years as a pub and have been involved every time it's been squated.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 14, 2005)

linerider said:
			
		

> I agree that we have to do something and will gladly get involved,i like alot of other people believe that bradys is a brixton institution and should be returned to being a community resource.
> i worked at bradys for it's last 6 years as a pub and have been involved every time it's been squated.


Excellent.


----------



## lang rabbie (Sep 14, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> I was sure that figure  was quoted at the BAF meeting about this time last year. But maybe that was a projected figure of funds still to be applied for.



I suspect the HLF have earmarked £5million for the BCA in Raleigh Hall scheme, subject to BCA putting together a plausible business plan.   HLF (and other heritage bodies) are desperate to be seen to be doing something in London  for black heritage in the run up to 2007 - bicentenary of the abolition of the slave trade.

There is a danger that BCA's (IMHO desperately dull) proposals for their museum will be sexed up to claim to provide "community facilities", and you'd need to have a strong argument why HLF should support plans only a few hundred yards away.


----------



## lang rabbie (Sep 14, 2005)

Bob said:
			
		

> Lang Rabbie? Can we tempt the guru of all things council along?



Sorry, I'm chairing a meeting that evening.    

I'm involved in too many other open space and community projects in the SW2/SW12/SW16 fringes already.  

Happy to shout support from the sidelines.   My suggestion (for what it is worth) is to try and get the pub - including the former music room - listed (if no one has tried this already)


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Sep 14, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> So, all those in favour of doing more than sitting on our arses while this building rots,
> we're planning on *meeting* up for a drink or two on
> 
> *the evening of Wednesday, September 28th at a location yet to be decided*


I would be very happy to help out - keep me posted.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 14, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> but I'm putty in your hands.


I should be so lucky.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 14, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> It might be a long (cheap) shot, but could we obtain a list of famous artists that have played at Brady's?
> 
> I know Hendrix was known to be a regular, and, well, the Hendrix family have just won their case against Purple Haze Records ltd link and may be up for extending his memorial after Jimi's Woodstock CD is released.


Sadly, it seems the Hendrix Brady's rumours were somewhat exaggerated. There was a thread that mentioned this as well.  Wasn't it rabbie or newbie perhaps who exploded that particular myth? 

Hendrix may have _gone_ to Brady's but he wasn't, AFAIK, a regular and apparently he never played there.


----------



## editor (Sep 14, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Hendrix may have _gone_ to Brady's but he wasn't, AFAIK, a regular and apparently he never played there.


He definitely did play _a_ Brady's, but not, as far as I know, the Railway Hotel, at least not as a full blown band gig.

02-19-67: Brady's Club, London 
http://www.nii.net/~obie/jimi_hendrix_live.htm


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 14, 2005)

> 10-05-66:
> Jimi, Mitch, and Noel play together for the first time in London. Have Mercy, Green Onions, Everybody Needs Somebody


My Mum was at that gig, which I think was in the Ealing Blues Club. The building is still there....


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## IntoStella (Sep 14, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> He definitely did play _a_ Brady's, but not, as far as I know, the Railway Hotel, at least not as a full blown band gig.
> 
> 02-19-67: Brady's Club, London
> http://www.nii.net/~obie/jimi_hendrix_live.htm


Didn't somebody post up a flyer for that gig before? It had an address on it that was, IIRC, substantially different from 'our' Brady's.


----------



## Bob (Sep 15, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> My Mum was at that gig, which I think was in the Ealing Blues Club. The building is still there....



Now that's impressive. The best I can do is that my Dad was asked to take part in a police identity parade in 1960s Brixton. An old lady who had been mugged very nervously said she didn't want to point out the mugger due to fear of being hit. When she eventually did point out the mugger she confidently said she was sure it was my Dad. Needless to say he is (and was) a mild mannered accountant.


----------



## Bob (Sep 15, 2005)

Also just heard that I should have an answer on when the exclusive rights expire soon.


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## citydreams (Sep 26, 2005)

*Hi, Just a reminder that we're meeting at The Trinity this wednesday*
*all welcome*
*drinks at 7:30, to start meeting at 8pm*


----------



## Zinedine* (Sep 27, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> *Hi, Just a reminder that we're meeting at The Trinity this wednesday*
> *all welcome*
> *drinks at 7:30, to start meeting at 8pm*




good luck with the meeting. I cannot attend this one, but will certainly be at any further meeting/help with action. I used to work in a planning department,(unfortuanatly not lambeth) so I can get advice from people there, if needed.


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## editor (Sep 28, 2005)

I'm afraid I can't make it either.

One odd thing. I was talking to an old Brixtonite - someone who really knows his stuff about this kind of thing - and he swore blind that the clock tower of Brady's was categorically, 100% listed.

In fact, he said that he was with the officials that listed it at because they were listing his property at the same time.

I know people have researched this and found nothing, but could it be that the listing has been lost?


----------



## netbob (Sep 28, 2005)

citydreams said:
			
		

> *Hi, Just a reminder that we're meeting at The Trinity this wednesday*
> *all welcome*
> *drinks at 7:30, to start meeting at 8pm*



I'm meeting with someone about the crack mailing list in the Trinity earlier, but I might join you when we're done if thats OK?


----------



## Zinedine* (Sep 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I'm afraid I can't make it either.
> 
> One odd thing. I was talking to an old Brixtonite - someone who really knows his stuff about this kind of thing - and he swore blind that the clock tower of Brady's was categorically, 100% listed.
> 
> ...



maybe, but If memory serves me correct, when something is listed the records are placed in  the Land Charges department, Legal, as well as Planning (but this mayb edifferent at different authorities. But saying that, the authority I worked for were pretty slack with their records. If someone had been researching the site (which obviously they have been) it would be quite possible to lose the records.

The best thing would be to try and find out a date of the listing and check local newspapers. Also find out which planning officers and councillors were responsible for listing it and see if any are still around. Best way would be to research the persons property you mentioned, which I think can be done for free at the council offices.

Although, there is always the possibility that the council 'lost' the records on purpose.

I will talk to an old colleague and find out if there is any other way to check if a building has been listed.


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2005)

Zinedine* said:
			
		

> I will talk to an old colleague and find out if there is any other way to check if a building has been listed.


Cool. This guy really was emphatic that the clock tower was listed and was expressing surprise that campaigners hadn't used this as leverage for getting the building back into use.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> One odd thing. I was talking to an old Brixtonite - someone who really knows his stuff about this kind of thing - and he swore blind that the clock tower of Brady's was categorically, 100% listed.


Once and for all, we went to the planning office last year and looked at the records. It is not listed, no matter what some bloke in a pub might think. There are a lot of, shall we say 'fantasists' around.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 28, 2005)

This always happens when anybody tries to organise anything in Brixton. A load of misinformation creeps in, hares get set running, everyone runs around like headless chickens and nothing whatsoever gets done.

If it's going to be just another talking shop I have other things to do.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 28, 2005)

Zinedine* said:
			
		

> Although, there is always the possibility that the council 'lost' the records on purpose.


Oh honestly. Come on!


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> It is not listed, no matter what some bloke in a pub might think. There are a lot of, shall we say 'fantasists' around.


"Some 'fantasist' bloke in a pub", eh? You think that's what I'm on about?

<editor's enthusiasm for getting involved seeps away>

I'm not interested in getting involved in an atmosphere of sneering put downs, so I'll leave you to it.


----------



## Zinedine* (Sep 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Cool. This guy really was emphatic that the clock tower was listed and was expressing surprise that campaigners hadn't used this as leverage for getting the building back into use.



Ive sent an e-mail to the Principle Planning Officer at the Local Authority I used to work in. I will post his reply when I get it


----------



## London_Calling (Sep 28, 2005)

About Listed Buildings -  where


Where to see the Lists

1.14 You can inspect the statutory lists for England free of charge at: The National Monuments Record in Swindon *or at the office of the relevant County or District Council (in London, at the office of the appropriate London Borough Council).*


----------



## Zinedine* (Sep 28, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Oh honestly. Come on!


I worked in Planning for ages, Ive seen worse go on. I wouldnt put anything past them. A planning officer gets a very low wage compared with other people with similar qualifications- sometimes they top up there wage doing things that are less than honest.

Losing something is nothing compared to other stuff I have witnessed.


----------



## corporate whore (Sep 28, 2005)

Hello - these people may be able to provide some help for yer worthy cause.. 

http://www.communitypubs.org/


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> "Some 'fantasist' bloke in a pub", eh? You think that's what I'm on about?
> 
> <editor's enthusiasm for getting involved seeps away>
> 
> I'm not interested in getting involved in an atmosphere of sneering put downs, so I'll leave you to it.


 _Enough _of the emotional blackmail already.  

I have seen this happen far, far too many times. Instead of finding out  _ how to go about getting the building listed, which it isn't_, now we're wasting time going in circles.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 28, 2005)

London_Calling said:
			
		

> About Listed Buildings -  where
> 
> 
> Where to see the Lists
> ...


Which is what I already did.


----------



## lang rabbie (Sep 28, 2005)

Zinedine* said:
			
		

> Although, there is always the possibility that the council 'lost' the records on purpose.



Local councils don't list buildings - central Government does.   Until last year the listing process was the responsibility of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (successor to Department of National Heritage), with English Heritage acting as their official adviser.   

English Heritage now maintain the list as well and process applications for new listings.

HOWEVER, most applications to list buildings are channelled through the local council's conservation officers.   

It would not surprise me if Lambeth's conservation team got as far as putting together an application to list the Railway Hotel.   Indeed they probably compiled a detailed dossier on it.  (I have a sneaking suspicion of having seen some mention of ongoing work in the Conservation team's annual report.)    

Were they then stopped by their bosses in the council's "Regeneration" directorate, fearful that if the pub was listed, the need to keep the whole building would stymie the plans for "Brixton Central Site Phase II" ?   

Conservation officers are a long way down the bureaucratic food chain.   I'm not sure whether the order would have come from the then Labour administration - who were so keen on their commercial partnership to bring chain shopping to Brixton - or (more likely) from a senior officer in the Regeneration directorate.


----------



## citydreams (Sep 28, 2005)

corporate whore said:
			
		

> Hello - these people may be able to provide some help for yer worthy cause..
> 
> http://www.communitypubs.org/




Thank you


----------



## twistedAM (Sep 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> "Some 'fantasist' bloke in a pub", eh? You think that's what I'm on about?
> 
> <editor's enthusiasm for getting involved seeps away>
> 
> I'm not interested in getting involved in an atmosphere of sneering put downs, so I'll leave you to it.




I've always been led to bellieve that too as it's a FIVE-faced clock which apparently is very rare.
AFAIK that can't be taken down but any other part of the building (eg where the gigs were) can be ripped to shreds. In fact that bit was added later.

Anyone else ever crawled through the ventilator shafts btw? There must be a million mice there by now and their dung is probably what keeps the building together.


----------



## Zinedine* (Sep 28, 2005)

I got the reply back from the Planning bloke and he said much the same as Lang Rabbie I.E. English Heritage will have the records. He also said that it's very unlikely that any records the L.A. hold on the listing would be lost. Especially, If there was recent planning permission. A large company would have got solicitors and specialists to research the site thoroughly in order to prevent any problems in the future.

His view is that it is not listed, but there is a good case for getting it listed. He will send me some relevant literature through the post on this process, which I can pass on to whoever needs it.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 28, 2005)

Zinedine* said:
			
		

> His view is that it is not listed, but there is a good case for getting it listed. He will send me some relevant literature through the post on this process, which I can pass on to whoever needs it.


 Glad we have cleared that up. 

The only way it would already  be listed is if an organised (ha!) pressure group of residents etc had made sure that it happened and that is EXTREMELY unlikely. I have certainly never heard of any such thing having occurred. It was a pub, then it was shut, then it was a squat and now it's empty again. No one has tried to list it in that time. The council wouldn't have done it off its own back for the reasons rabbie explains.


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2005)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> It would not surprise me if Lambeth's conservation team got as far as putting together an application to list the Railway Hotel.   Indeed they probably compiled a detailed dossier on it.  (I have a sneaking suspicion of having seen some mention of ongoing work in the Conservation team's annual report.)
> 
> Were they then stopped by their bosses in the council's "Regeneration" directorate, fearful that if the pub was listed, the need to keep the whole building would stymie the plans for "Brixton Central Site Phase II" ?


This is exactly was what the guy I was talking to was going on about.

PM me and I'll tell you who he is if you like. He certainly seemed to have a very good knowledge of goings on the area and may be able to shed light on a few things.


----------



## netbob (Sep 28, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Glad we have cleared that up.
> 
> The only way it would already  be listed is if an organised (ha!) pressure group of residents etc had made sure that it happened and that is EXTREMELY unlikely. I have certainly never heard of any such thing having occurred. It was a pub, then it was shut, then it was a squat and now it's empty again. No one has tried to list it in that time. The council wouldn't have done it off its own back for the reasons rabbie explains.



You might be able to get the Electric Avenue Residents Group and Electric Mansions Tennants Group to support it getting listed. 

Although I think there is some apprehension about what Brady's might reopen 'as' because of noise and people pissing up Electric Lane.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> This is exactly was what the guy I was talking to was going on about.


 You said this local oracle told you it was _already listed._  That isn't what rabbie said, is it? 

I agree with rabbie that the council might well have lost an _application _ for listing down the back of a filing cabinet, which is why it would most probably only happen if local people kept up the pressure, but that is not the same as losing existing records of an actual listing, which would be absolutely stupid even by Lambeth standards.


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> _Enough _of the emotional blackmail already.


It's got *nothing* to do with "emotional blackmail".

I'm just not prepared to put up with your sneering put downs. It's not constructive, it's distracting and frankly, it pisses me off. 

And already you're posting up the 'rolleyes' emoticons!

I can't work with people like that, and seeing as this has happened at a very early stage, I'll leave you to it because prolonged personal squabbles aren't going to help the fight to re-open Bradys.

I wish you - and others - the best of luck and will be happy to help promote any fund raisers etc at a later date if required.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 28, 2005)

memespring said:
			
		

> You might be able to get the Electric Avenue Residents Group and Electric Mansions Tennants Group to support it getting listed.
> 
> Although I think there is some apprehension about what Brady's might reopen 'as' because of noise and people pissing up Electric Lane.


 Good points. Local residents would have to be reassured that any plans for the site would make things better for them, if anything, not worse. Better in the sense that more law abiding citizens around late at night, and more 'community atmosphere', helps to prevent crime, for example.


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> "this local oracle"


Why try and belittle me in this manner? What are you trying to prove?

Oh well. No matter. I'm out of here.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> It's got *nothing* to do with "emotional blackmail".
> 
> I'm just not prepared to put up with your sneering put downs. It's not constructive, it's distracting and frankly, it pisses me off. And the 'rolleyes' emoticons are already out!
> 
> ...


 Sorry, is this a campaign to reopen Brady's or to nurture your eggshell ego? I already told you we had checked the records and that the building, including the clocktower, is not listed. Spreading misinformation is not helpful to anybody. Whatever this bloke said, it was not the same as what Rabbie said. Rabbie did not say the building was already listed.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Why try and belittle me in this manner? What are you trying to prove?
> 
> Oh well. No matter. I'm out of here.


Get over yourself.


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> "Some 'fantasist' bloke in a pub", eh?


By the way, *that is not what I said*. You go absolutely spare if people misquote you. Why not apply your own expectations  to yourself?


----------



## IntoStella (Sep 29, 2005)

The meeting was extremely useful and encouraging. We were even briefly graced with the presence of cllr Sawdon.

And I found out just how far bob is in league with the devil.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 30, 2005)

Bradys is in Ferndale Ward isin't it? 

Cllr Paul McGlone helped us in our appeal against the duke of edinburgh. He is a very nice guy (staying with us until 1am last night) and I reckon he would be supportive of your campagn and a good person to have on your side.


----------



## Bob (Sep 30, 2005)

<anorak> Coldharbour ward. Boundary is Brixton road.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 13, 2005)

From the the news today said:
			
		

> Community groups should be given the right to buy disused or derelict council property to build parks, children’s playgrounds, youth centres and food cooperatives, David Milliband, the local government minister said yesterday. The Guardian writes that Mr Milliband claimed there was as much as £10 billion worth of unused or under-used council land in England and the development of such land by the community would not only help regeneration but “help generate trust amongst residents and so establish norms of decent behaviour and respect”.



Even the Government want a community centre at Brady's!


----------



## lang rabbie (Oct 13, 2005)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> Even the Government want a community centre at Brady's!



It was a very bizarre speech not all of which may be similarly popular with some regular posters...

Give community groups right to buy derelict land, says minister 




			
				Grauniad said:
			
		

> Mr Miliband also said he wanted to change the balance between social housing and owner occupation in Britain's poorest neighbourhoods from the current 80/20 ratio to 50/50.


  

Yesterday's Financial Times had a clearer indication of what might be proposed.




			
				FT said:
			
		

> The government will look at promoting local authorities' powers to dispose of assets below "best value" at a discount of up to £2m to bodies that serve the local community.
> 
> "Community right to buy" is being studied by a working group on neigh- bourhoods, comprising central and local government and voluntary organisations. It is due to report before January.


----------



## 50 Foot Queenie (Oct 16, 2005)

*do I need a title?*




			
				lang rabbie said:
			
		

> It was a very bizarre speech not all of which may be similarly popular with some regular posters...
> 
> Give community groups right to buy derelict land, says minister
> 
> Yesterday's Financial Times had a clearer indication of what might be proposed.



This is my first post, so if this doesn't quite work, please forgive me.

First, I should out myself as working for central government, in fact for ODPM (and therefore indirectly for Mr Milliband). But I would love to see Bradys, and in fact the whole surrounding area, be brought back into use. When swimming in the Recreation Centre, you get a great view of the clock tower, and it is a crying shame it's in the state it's in. 

Local authorities are obliged by law to dispose of any land they own at full market value - if they wish to sell at an undervalue, they must get the consent of the Secretary of State (ie Big John). The government though have given a general consent to all local authorities enabling them to dispose of land at an undervalue provided that the undervalue is less than £2million. That figure was set in order to give power back to local authorities to decide on disposals at an undervalue (the most usual reason for selling at an undervalue is of course to further some community purpose), because local authorities should be accountable to the local community for decisions like this.

All David Milliband said about the Community Right to Buy was that they have it in Scotland, and that the government will look at this as an option. If they decide that they do want to introduce such a right, in order to bring it forward, legislation would be needed. And I can tell you that there aren't any bills in the immediate offing for ODPM. So it's likely to be at least 2-3 years before any such right would be in existence - there has to be all the policy exploration first, then a bill takes about a year to go through, and then you have to implement the bill after it's passed to make it work. So it's probably not worth getting too excited about this as any kind of option for Brady's.

So, the upshot of all this is that power for disposing of the site at an undervalue lies solely with the council, and the government have got nothing to do with it - lobbying should focus on the Council. That doesn't mean that it isn't worth getting the local MP on board, even though Keith would have no actual power to make the council do anything, if he was behind the project surely that would help? I don't know how helpful or active he is locally though...


----------



## Bob (Oct 16, 2005)

Welcome to the boards.   

Have a cracksquirrel. Or hobnob - the option's yours.


----------



## IntoStella (Oct 17, 2005)

I have finally got around to making, as promised, a pledge at pledgebank.com to get off the ground the campaign to list Brady's clocktower and bring the building back into community use.

It's at:

*www.pledgebank.com/bradys* 

Please sign up for the sake of this beautiful, much loved and much-neglected Brixton landmark. You don't have to be a local resident. 

List Brady's thread here


----------



## playghirl (Sep 22, 2006)

*Brady's*

I heard a rumour that Sean ( previous Queen owner) and Seamus ( wINDMILL)
ARE planning on buying Bradys and reopening. Has anyone heard these rumours?


----------



## gabi (Sep 22, 2006)

Well I heard another rumour that the windmills getting sold so possibly.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 22, 2006)

No, I thought the council had earmarked it for the luxury flats route with shops in the basement....anyway, there are threads about it knocking about...I'll see if there are any amongst the thousands of threads accidentally shunted to the mods forum, and if there are, I'll shunt them back into this forum.....


----------



## gaijingirl (Sep 22, 2006)

oooh... that's a bit exciting!


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 22, 2006)

gabi said:
			
		

> Well I heard another rumour that the windmills getting sold so possibly.


Well, all the Lambeth Council owned council estate pubs leases came up for renewal last year or the year before (Hero of Switzerland, Robin Hood & Little John, Windmill etc) but as far as I know the existing landlords renewed the leases.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Sep 22, 2006)

whatever,  it's a bloomin disgrace that Bradys has been closed so long, given the tube fukup it could have quite happily run as a venue for years.


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2006)

playghirl said:
			
		

> I heard a rumour that Sean ( previous Queen owner) and Seamus ( wINDMILL)
> ARE planning on buying Bradys and reopening. Has anyone heard these rumours?


I've heard nothing I'm afraid, but if I had the money I'd buy the venue tomorrow. It could be a *great* local music/entertainment venue.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 22, 2006)

btw, couldn't find any Brady's posts in the mods forum


----------



## aurora green (Sep 22, 2006)

Yeah, It's a brilliant venue, and indeed a disgrace it's been left idle for so very long. I really really hope that it re-opens as a venue, and isn't developed into more bloody flats.


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2006)

aurora green said:
			
		

> Yeah, It's a brilliant venue, and indeed a disgrace it's been left idle for so very long. I really really hope that it re-opens as a venue, and isn't developed into more bloody flats.


I can't see who'd want to live in a building that contains a _built _in railway bridge!


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2006)

Incidentally, in my fantasy ideal venues for Offline, number one was Cooltan, with Brady's at number two!


----------



## Crispy (Sep 22, 2006)

Just how much money would be needed?
*hair brained schemes run amok in crispy's brain*


----------



## playghirl (Sep 22, 2006)

cheers..... mind you I do not think I could cope with that lifestyle again!!!!!


----------



## aurora green (Sep 22, 2006)

Bradys would be so perfect for offline!


----------



## Dubversion (Sep 22, 2006)

aurora green said:
			
		

> Bradys would be so perfect for offline!




if seamus let me in


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 22, 2006)

I've had a bit of a rummage in the dustier corners of this forum and found these...

www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=165223
www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=135755
www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=130010


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2006)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> I've had a bit of a rummage in the dustier corners of this forum and found these...
> 
> www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=165223
> www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=135755
> www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=130010


I've merged one of the older threads into this one (I haven't bothered with the Pledgebank one as that now seems a bit of a cul-de-sac)


----------



## Crispy (Sep 22, 2006)

Seriously though, how much money would it take to buy/lease brady's?


----------



## Giles (Sep 22, 2006)

The freehold would be a million or two, I suspect, maybe more. That's if the council would sell it, and I bet they wouldn't - they would always have half an eye on "future plans" for the area and wouldn't let it go.

It needs a lot spending on it, and you would need to make some use of the residential above, if only to help with the mortgage payments on your 2 million pound loan......

Leasing it: don't know. 

I would love to own that place - it would make a brilliant venue.

Giles..


----------



## Crispy (Sep 22, 2006)

I sense anger. Anger and frustration over a problem that will not let itself be solved.


----------



## linerider (Sep 22, 2006)

playghirl said:
			
		

> I heard a rumour that Sean ( previous Queen owner) and Seamus ( wINDMILL)
> ARE planning on buying Bradys and reopening. Has anyone heard these rumours?


Isn't Seamus involved in buying a place in Streatham at least that's what his wife told me and boy was she unhappy about it.


----------



## playghirl (Sep 24, 2006)

I heard last night he did buy The Bedford..... up in sTREATHAM


----------



## netbob (Sep 24, 2006)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Just how much money would be needed?
> *hair brained schemes run amok in crispy's brain*



Convincing the council is probably more important than the money (someone told me they threw £million at the dogstar once? could well be bollocks though). 

The lottery bid and market tidy up seems to have focused their attention on this side of town recently. Plus all the parties seem to be shiying away from the "cafe culture" stuff recently since they pretty much accepted it has caused alot of unwelcome problems (drug touirism etc). So maybe they could be talked round if there was a decent hairbrained scheme?


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2006)

memespring said:
			
		

> . So maybe they could be talked round if there was a decent hairbrained scheme?


I've got a decent hairbrained scheme and know lots of people who would want to get involved. Who do I write to?!


----------



## bluestreak (Sep 25, 2006)

harebrainedschemes@lambeth.gov.uk


----------



## Crispy (Sep 25, 2006)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> harebrainedschemes@lambeth.gov.uk


I think that resolves to bottomlesspitofdespair@lambeth.gov.uk (much like benefits@lambeth.gov.uk or planning@lambeth.gov.uk)


----------



## bluestreak (Sep 25, 2006)

oh, i disagree. hasn't it been conclusively shown that they'll hand out cash to hare-brained schemes, unlike benefits?


----------



## playghirl (Oct 14, 2006)

Well who knows... it is a waiting game I guess.


----------



## Fenian (Oct 21, 2006)

playghirl said:
			
		

> cheers..... mind you I do not think I could cope with that lifestyle again!!!!!


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2006)

Just an update to say that there are some quite advanced proposals to reopen Brady's being sorted out. 

I might be helping them out, but can't say too much right now - but it's looking good!

More details later!


----------



## Crispy (Nov 5, 2006)

Good news!


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Nov 5, 2006)

looks hopeful, it's a tragic waste of a building to leave it to rot for soooo long?


----------



## dogmatique (Nov 5, 2006)

Never before has a much loved building been in such dire need of some love and attention, and a PAINT JOB! Before it falls irreperably into disrepair...

Good luck with the plans!


----------



## Giles (Nov 6, 2006)

Let's hope something finally happens! I remember being shown round the place when it was squatted, and being amazed at the size of it - and sad that such a great venue was being left to rot.

Giles..


----------



## editor (Nov 6, 2006)

Mind you, the disgrace of Brady's being left to rot is nowhere near as bad as the outrageous fate of Cooltan: once a hugely popular and thriving community resource, it's been left to slowly fall apart for ten years for no good reason.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 6, 2006)

Is the structure still sound at Brady's? The one thing that would doom any project would be a bad surveyor's report saying "basicly, you need to tear it down" - I don't see any trees in gutters or collapsed roofs, but those sort of things could scupper any plans...


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 6, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> Just an update to say that there are some quite advanced proposals to reopen Brady's being sorted out.
> 
> I might be helping them out, but can't say too much right now - but it's looking good!
> 
> More details later!


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2006)

More info:



> A presentation will be made to the Brixton Town Centre Forum on Monday 20th November at 7pm in the Karibu Centre (formally the Abeng Centre), Gresham Road opposite Brixton Police Station.
> 
> Here we will set out our proposals to restore the Railway Hotel (Brady's) as a community Venue and Arts Centre.
> 
> http://www.abcbrixton.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=34


----------



## citydreams (Nov 14, 2006)

ah, the Brixton Urban Movement is back!  Up the BUM! 

Thanks for the link


----------



## zenie (Nov 14, 2006)

Looks good


----------



## Crispy (Nov 14, 2006)

Good effort!

I'm by no means a fully-qualified expert, but I would be willing to give my time as an architectural technician if it's needed. I know building regs etc. fairly well and can probably bend the ear of everal others in my office.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 17, 2006)

Looks good. A decent collection of local groups have put this together. You can download the 3-page proposal by clicking *here*

The proposal calls for a wide public consultation and talks about all the potential benefits, but points out that any "redevelopment would need to dovetail into [Lambeth's] existing regeneration scheme." I'm sure this could be a sticking point with Lambeth... but you never know. 

They say a priority is getting the building listed [what would the implications of that be?] and that a community arts centre would be an appropriate use. A social enterprise business model could make the centre viable.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 18, 2006)

memespring said:
			
		

> Convincing the council is probably more important than the money (someone told me they threw £million at the dogstar once? could well be bollocks though).
> 
> The lottery bid and market tidy up seems to have focused their attention on this side of town recently. Plus all the parties seem to be shiying away from the "cafe culture" stuff recently since they pretty much accepted it has caused alot of unwelcome problems (drug touirism etc). So maybe they could be talked round if there was a decent hairbrained scheme?



  They did throw £££ at the the Dogstar.Not so mch Cafe Culture thats the problem(nothing wrong with the Lounge) as that in the hands of New Labour "entrepreneurs" like Dogstar Larry CC was transformed into noisy late night clubs which were dead in the daytime.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 18, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> More info:



  Ill be there for other reasons.The Council will be also making a presentation about the new administrations plans for central Brixton and the remaining Council owned assets in central Brixton.I assume this means the Rec,housing and land in central Brixton.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 18, 2006)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> Looks good. A decent collection of local groups have put this together. You can download the 3-page proposal by clicking *here*



An interesting proposal, indeed ... 

What do I get? This :




			
				part of Brady's proposal said:
			
		

> PDF-1.6
> %âãÏÓ
> 43 0 obj <</Linearized 1/L 95799/O 45/E 59167/N 3/T 94897/H [ 556 239]>>
> endobj
> ...



Erm ....


----------



## lang rabbie (Nov 18, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> An interesting proposal, indeed ...
> 
> What do I get? This :
> 
> Erm ....



Thankfully, no problem for me now on my laptop, but I bet my old steam-powered home PC couldn't have coped with anything like this produced in QuarkXpress6 and the published in Adobe 7.0 format (This looks like nu-media professional overkill given that nothing in the document layout couldn't have been done in MS Word!)   

Plain text follows as a public service to those still struggling ...



> OUTLINE PROPOSAL
> 
> To find a new sustainable use for “The Railway Hotel”, an otherwise redundant heritage building in Brixton Town Centre.
> 
> ...


----------



## lang rabbie (Nov 18, 2006)

I do wish them well.

Railway Hotel Initial Partnership

But my mind is already boggling if some of the personalities involved with some of those organisations have to work together as a partnership.


----------



## editor (Nov 20, 2006)

I won't be able to make this tonight because I've got a bastardo deadline to meet, but if anyone who's going fancies writing a short report for the site, that would be grand.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 20, 2006)

Arsebiscuits, I could have gone.
Bit late now


----------



## linerider (Nov 20, 2006)

I'm not on line at the moment(at least not at home) but will get involved soon.LONG LIVE BRADYS


----------



## citydreams (Nov 20, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> I won't be able to make this tonight because I've got a bastardo deadline to meet, but if anyone who's going fancies writing a short report for the site, that would be grand.



An application for listing Bradys has been made with English Heritage and a request made for Lambeth council to prevent any sell-off of the site for 20 months. This depsite an obvious interest from the owner of the Fridge nightclub, who made a passionate plea to the Brixton Town Centre Forum that rested soley on his 20 years of experience.

It also seems that the LDA have an expressed an interest in the site, but no details were forthcoming at the meeting.

ABC Brixton's proposal was the epitome of social inclusion.  Social enterprise, incubation and community interest companies were the main watchwords.  I felt it was delivered with real conviction.

Were ABC Brixton to win the support of the council we can expect a restaurant/bar on the ground floor with space set aside for music and theatre.
The first floor would be centered around youth and art projects, with Brockwell park based Whippersnappers already lined up as part of the ABC partnership. 
Business space could be rented by the hour on the second floor. 
A more expansive description can be found in the proposal on the ABC Brixton website.

While no mention was made of the exact size of the piles of money that would be needed to redevelop Bradys, we were left with the impression that money is available either through an agreement with the Prince’s Regeneration Trust
or via Blacks Ltd., operators of a private members club in Soho, who have formed a partnership with ABC Brixton.

The next steps are centered around a meeting with representatives of Lambeth Council to agree a Feasibility Study Brief and arrangements for funding in January 2007.

Not related to Brady's, but my favourite quip of the night was "..why do we always feel life we're banging our head against a wall.. that Lambeth council won't even build".


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 2, 2006)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> I do wish them well.
> 
> Railway Hotel Initial Partnership
> 
> But my mind is already boggling if some of the personalities involved with some of those organisations have to work together as a partnership.



  Thats a good point.Its one of my reservations of this proposal.As there is "private" involvement I can see it just ending up in the end as a bar/nightclub with supercial "community use".As business people are more savvy for the main chance.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 2, 2006)

I went to the Brixton Town Centre Forum meeting.It was well attended for a forum meeting.Among the topics discussed was ABCs proposals.Someone from ABC presented the proposals which have already been outlined on this thread.Here are a few points from the meeting:

1)There are 3 parties interested in Bradys.The businessman who started the Fridge said he could offer the money now for Bradys as a "commercial venture".The LDA have expressed an interest in using Bradys for a mixed use scheme.And ABC have their own proposal.

2)Shane(Green Party) asked how much the Council were spending on security per year on Bradys.(No officer there to give an answer).

3)The Electric Avenue residents thought ABCs proposals were a good idea but had concerns about noise from live music etc.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 2, 2006)

Just thought that people might want summary of other topics discussed.

1)There was someone from the Brighton Terrace drugs rehab centre.This still seems to be causing concern.Though the discussion went off on a tangent about general drug use in Brixton.Seems to me the centre has unfortunately become a focus for a lot of drugs issues that are not its fault.As much as some of the residents say they want drug users to be helped I got the distinct impression that a lot of people just wanted them cleared off Brixton no questions asked.
    Know that New Labour are back in power there is more emphasis on "ASBOs" and what a local businessman called "socialising programmes".All very 1984 to me.New Labour come out with a hard line on Law and Order as they say this is what peoples real concerns are.However this encourages people to be unsympathetic to drug rehabilitation-as I saw at the meeting.To her credit the local Labour councillor present did support the Brighton Terrace scheme.However I dont think what New Labour call "Triangulation" works.

2)Now that Labour run the Council again the regeneration plans for Brixton are being relooked at.Two officers said that:

  a)There had been enough consultation already.Previous consultation would be "built on" through for example "visualisations" (is this Scientology).They would look back over previous consultation and also also get Arup to update an extend there East Brixton proposals to the whole of Brixton.The consultation on Brixton Central sq would provide officers with a "model" for community participation.(But IMO that consultation was crap-whatever your views on a new sq). 

  b)The regeneration plan would use a "Holistic" approach.That sounds like Council speak to me.There would be a detailed delivery plan-overall structure and individual projects.

  c)By March 2007 there would be detailed proposals for the Council to agree on.

  d)Various people said that consultation was not really involving residents.I agree.Seems to me from what the officers said that the Council will produce overall plan then consult us on minor details.

  e)The officers gave no specific details on what would happen to specific assets.After questioning the local Councillor present revealed that the Rec long term future is still not secure.This was a surprise to me as at the last election the Labour group supported keeping the Rec,against the Lib/Dems who looked like they might demolish it to sell the land and build a smaller one nearby.


----------



## Ol Nick (Dec 2, 2006)

Gramsci said:
			
		

> JThere was someone from the Brighton Terrace drugs rehab centre.This still seems to be causing concern.Though the discussion went off on a tangent about general drug use in Brixton.Seems to me the centre has unfortunately become a focus for a lot of drugs issues that are not its fault. As much as some of the residents say they want drug users to be helped I got the distinct impression that a lot of people just wanted them cleared off Brixton no questions asked.


Maybe they didn't want more drug users attracted *into* Brixton (which is the Brighton Terrace plan). Maybe they thought that there are already enough. 




			
				Gramsci said:
			
		

> now that New Labour are back in power there is more emphasis on "ASBOs" and what a local businessman called "socialising programmes".All very 1984 to me.New Labour come out with a hard line on Law and Order as they say this is what peoples real concerns are.However this encourages people to be unsympathetic to drug rehabilitation-as I saw at the meeting.To her credit the local Labour councillor present did support the Brighton Terrace scheme.


Which councillor was that? Not the Fernadlae one who opposed the Brighton Terrace centre in opposition?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 3, 2006)

It was Rachel Heywood the new Coldharbour ward Councillor.

Drug problems are all over central London.these arguments aboutneedle exchange and rehab centres are par for the course around London.No one wants hard drugs or centres to treat addicts in there area.I think the argument that drug treatment will encourage hard drugs is spurious.


----------



## Rich (Jan 26, 2007)

*Brady's*

I know there was a thread on Brady's not long ago but couldn't find it to add to so advance apologies if this has already been discussed. Anyway just seen this posted on the Herne Hill forum site. Is the community use proposal (ABC was it) still a goer? Regardless its just good to see there's a bit of interest in saving the building and returning the place to some use. Whats the general experience of those of you more long term Brixton people with this Andrew Czezowski fella? The proposal seems not bad on the face of it to me. What's peoples views? 


BRADY'S 
20 ATLANTIC ROAD, BRIXTON, LONDON SW9
Proposal To create
 RESTAURANT-BAR
ARTS CLUB-THEATRE
with live
 ROCK-JAZZ-SOUL-BLUES MUSIC 

proposal
To convert Brady's into a bar restaurant with live music, theatre  and home of the Brixton Arts Club.

music
I am planning to bring into Central Brixton various acts and performers in the rock/jazz/soul/blues style of music. I have felt for some time that Central Brixton desperately needs a small to medium sizes live entertainment venue, promoting young up and coming bands. I have over thirty years of experience in this field and have promoted every one from the Clash, police, Souxsie and the Banshees  at my first punk club 'The Roxy' in 1977, to Take That, Marc Almond, Eartha Kitt and Sade at the Fridge.

The venue will include a acoustic and comedy  bar with theatre/performance space on the first floor.

I also intend to put on regular exhibitions to promote artists and their work. I have successfully run the Fridge gallery in Acre Lane Brixton with exhibitions by students from Chelsea School of Art, Royal College of Art, St Martins School of Art, Camberwell School of Art, and many individual artist including John O'donnell b.a., r.a., and  Paul Ashurst a local internationally respected artist,  these events have proven very successful with enquiries still coming to me for show space.

The rear of the premises will converted into a restaurant which will  be open daytime to visitors/market traders and families, in addition to normal evening trade.

design & plans.
It is my intention to refurbish the exterior of the building to it's original condition, including restoration of it's almost unique six sided clock tower, I understand one of only two in England. The interior will be modernised to meet all code requirements for the buildings use.

conversion costs.
I am unable to provide you on short notice a detailed breakdown but both I and my valuers  predict a figure of approx. £650,000. 



 employment & training.
I expect to employ 8-12 full time staff and 30-40 part time staff. 
Through my experience of owning and running the Fridge Bar and Fridge Nightclub which employed over a hundred and twenty people, I had discovered a chronic shortage of staff with appropriate bar restaurant skills.
I plan to create a teaching school for young people who wish to enter the bar/catering trade. this would not be a catering school but a short term work experience and training school for catering support staff i.e.. bar staff, waiting staff, front of house personnel who need to know about service, safety, hygiene, cleanliness, personal tidiness, good manners and helpful demeanour. I have over the years found it difficult to recruit the level of staff required. I can only see this getting more difficult with the explosion of bars and restaurants in London and especially in Brixton. This short term training  would include a period of 'hands on' in one  or other of the premises in Brixton including a period at this venue. I feel this type of training would be beneficial to young people as it will provide a basic skill which could be especially suited to the unemployed, single parents and students who would with this training be available to work in an industry which does not always demand a full week or regular hours, and once learned would always be useful. 

location.

This is a densely populated area which could not sustain any more vehicular traffic but with it's  very close connection to the underground and over ground railway systems plus good bus connections I an confident I can promote travel to this venue without too much dependence on cars.  The other, and probably most important consideration would of course be the immediate local residents, i would very much like to have full and frank discussions with any who may hold a view on this proposal, noise, pollution and general hubbub are always  issues, but  ones I feel I have the experience to deal with. 
this particular location is very dark and dingy which will be difficult to police being in the heart of drug territory, i can only say  that the success of this venue and location will depend on the ability to control this element, i can say that i have managed to operate one of  London's top five venues in this area for over 23 years and with that comes a legacy  of respect which i  believe will hold me in good stead to deal with these issues.




finance . 
This project  will  be  entirely privately funded and will not be  dependant on  applications to any outside bodies and so  refurbishment would be immediate with a planned opening  in 9-12 months.

 I would like to add that at no time have I been funded for any of my ventures from local or central government or charitable bodies, soI can confidently claim that should this offer/proposal be accepted it would have an immediate and beneficial effect.





This proposal is being put forward by Andrew Czezowski, owner and former operator of the Fridge Bar, Fridge night-club and Fridge Gallery in Brixton. I have been a Lambeth resident since 1951 and a Brixton resident from  1960 until I moved to Streatham in 1972, where I still reside.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 26, 2007)

Sounds ok, I guess. I thought the large music space was on the ground floor, not the first? But I could be misinformed.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 26, 2007)

(*deleted, just in case ed. TC are you sure this is true? I'm just concerned about legal stuff)


----------



## twistedAM (Jan 26, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Sounds ok, I guess. I thought the large music space was on the ground floor, not the first? But I could be misinformed.



i think that means he would create a smaller performance area upstairs..there's enough room!


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 26, 2007)

czautious thumbs up, but I'd like to know more


----------



## editor (Jan 26, 2007)

*threads merged.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jan 26, 2007)

sounds like an interesting plan and i like the idea of the 'training school' for young people. there's no proposed community use though, unlike the ABC proposal....


----------



## teuchter (Jan 26, 2007)

Would be good to see a decent venue in brixton concentrating on live music. Seems to be increasingly difficult to find a decent night out that isn't centred on house, DnB or crappy RnB....


----------



## Crispy (Jan 26, 2007)

I totally agree. There's nowhere in central brixton for a crowd of a couple hunded people to see live music. It's a completely rock solid business proposal in that respect.


----------



## dogmatique (Jan 27, 2007)

Yep, potentially v good.


----------



## Passdout (Jan 27, 2007)

Ironically, the one and only time I ever remember seeing my grandad (mums dad) was outside the other Bradys (The Russel Hotel in Brixton Rd) which as far as I know is also closed.


----------



## lang rabbie (Mar 5, 2007)

I think this may be the thread people were trying to revive, rather than IntoStella's from quite so long ago.

More details of the City Hall event at:

http://www.abcbrixton.org/


----------



## netbob (Mar 6, 2007)

A good evening! They did a really good job of getting people from loads of different groups together (lots of faces I recognised, but hadnt seen in the same room before).


----------



## editor (Mar 6, 2007)

I couldn't go in the end, so tell us more!


----------



## netbob (Mar 7, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I couldn't go in the end, so tell us more!



Nothing more about the plans than is already known, but lots of general enthusiasm, bit of music (I never reaslised how much (Whipersnappers get up to). I'm sure it was the incense guy (dont know hiss name) from outside the tube was doing gymnastics too. A few politicos there too.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 7, 2007)

The Incense man (AKA THe Mighty Wanderer) has been involved in Whippersnappers for many a long year.


----------



## rascal (Mar 8, 2007)

alabama - who were supposed to headline - most of the group did not bother turning up.  Didn't even phone and cancel.


----------



## Dubversion (Mar 8, 2007)

rascal said:
			
		

> alabama - who were supposed to headline - most of the group did not bother turning up.  Didn't even phone and cancel.




who did show up? they were booked as acoustic so it wouldn't have been the whole line-up anyway


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Mar 8, 2007)

So what is the council's position on all this? Are they inviting bids? Or is this (as I suspect) lobbying to persuade them to get off their arses and do something with the building? Have Lambeth they said anything formally about Brady's?


----------



## editor (Mar 8, 2007)

rascal said:
			
		

> alabama - who were supposed to headline - most of the group did not bother turning up.  Didn't even phone and cancel.


I've offered to get involved in the next one and sort out a bill.


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## rascal (Mar 10, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> I've offered to get involved in the next one and sort out a bill.




coolio

your help would be assisted


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## rascal (Mar 10, 2007)

i mean appreciated


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## RaverDrew (Mar 11, 2007)

well both really


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## netbob (Mar 11, 2007)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> So what is the council's position on all this? Are they inviting bids? Or is this (as I suspect) lobbying to persuade them to get off their arses and do something with the building? Have Lambeth they said anything formally about Brady's?




Technically they are impartial, although I think a few councilors are generally for it and there was at least one councillor there the other night. General emails of support to councillors prob wouldent go a miss though.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2007)

Rich said:
			
		

> Whats the general experience of those of you more long term Brixton people with this Andrew Czezowski fella? The proposal seems not bad on the face of it to me. What's peoples views?
> 
> into a bar restaurant with live music, theatre  and home of the Brixton Arts Club.



  At the last Brixton central Forum he said his was a purely commercial proposal and he had the money ready.Seems he has looked at rival proposals and come up with this one.

  After my experience of Dogstar Larry I must say im cynical.Sounds good but does it mean anything except opening a bar?Promising to put on artists work is meaningless.If u get the planning permission and licence you can do what you want.

  The training/work experience due to shortage of staff element is laughable.What lack of staff?Half of Poland is here covering these kind of low paid jobs now.It really is talking bollox to say there a shortage of catering staff.Could be that its so badly paid.


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## rascal (Mar 13, 2007)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> So what is the council's position on all this? Are they inviting bids? Or is this (as I suspect) lobbying to persuade them to get off their arses and do something with the building? Have Lambeth they said anything formally about Brady's?



The council have already invited bids, a decision will be made soon. The ABC bid is the only community based bid so it is very difficult for the council not to go with it or they could be challenged in court. 

The ABC bid includes support from the Prince of Wales Regeneration trust and Tariq Ali and Harold Pinter, both members of Blacks litery club who are a partner. 
LKJ is monitoring progress and has been asked to become a patron.


----------



## lang rabbie (Mar 13, 2007)

rascal said:
			
		

> The ABC bid includes support from the Prince of Wales Regeneration trust and Tariq Ali and Harold Pinter, both members of Blacks litery club who are a partner.
> 
> LKJ is monitoring progress and has been asked to become a patron.



 ROFLMAO


----------



## OpalFruit (Mar 15, 2007)

rascal said:
			
		

> The council have already invited bids, a decision will be made soon. The ABC bid is the only community based bid so it is very difficult for the council not to go with it or they could be challenged in court.
> 
> .



On what grounds could they be challenged in court? As long as any other bid was within the UDP?


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## rascal (Mar 16, 2007)

Council policy is to dispose of assets to community groups. As far as I know a judicial review can overturn decisions based on stated policy. Will find out from ABC people.


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## OpalFruit (Mar 16, 2007)

rascal said:
			
		

> Council policy is to dispose of assets to community groups. As far as I know a judicial review can overturn decisions based on stated policy. Will find out from ABC people.


Wow! That's interesting - and good - I thought the council were obliged to sell at market prices for use within the UDP.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 17, 2007)

*A quick update*

I found the old ABC proposal for Brady's when I was clearining my desk earlier and it got me wondering if anything is happening with Brady's.

Interestingly, there is a new website here:
http://www.railwayhotel.org/
...which has got loads of photos taken in and around Brady's by a local photographer called Jeremy Quinn. There's some good shots of the bar and kitchen, the clocks, and also the clock winding mechanism that is totally splattered with pigeon shit! Good stuff anyway - anyone who's a bit of a photo and building trainspotter like me will enjoy the pics!

In terms of the proposal, a new one was developed in September (which can be downloaded here) and they look to have the supoort of the Prince's Regeneration Trust and various local luminaries. Haven't read the new proposal properly yet but they seem to be going big on the community aspect, which clearly they need to since making it simply a bar doesn't really do anything for anyone.

It looks like they're trying to get LBL and/or Govt Office London to dispose of the building cheaply...

more here: www.abcbrixton.org


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## Crispy (Oct 17, 2007)

Looks like a solid proposal, with plenty of momentum.

Whatever happened to the Czezowski commercial bid?


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 23, 2007)

Have read the proposal in full now. There's a few Urbanites (and ex-urbanites!) quoted in there. Seems decent enough - lots of people potentially wanting to do stuff with a refurbished brady's. But it looks like LBL still have to decide whether to dispose of the building cheaply. And it looks like there may still be other plans for the rest of that "triangle" between atlantic road and electric lane.


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## editor (Oct 23, 2007)

Looking good, but I'm not sure why urban75 isn't listed as a supporter.
Maybe we're not 'official' enough...?

Oh, and there's a few new pics on the feature: http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/bradys.html


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## snowy_again (Oct 24, 2007)

Have you looked at the Community Assets programme run under the management of the Big Lottery Fund*... its dispersed ownership of "shared" assets (i.e. council owned premises) to an informal range of Vol / Com / Not for Profit organisations. 

It could be an option, "Not being official enough" is frequently or only a matter of paper... but the flip side of the arguement is that by disposing of assets, LA's get to shift off expensive (to maintain & keep) properties and put the maintenance costs in the hands of someone else. 

* I'll dig out more details tomorrow, when I'm more awake.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 25, 2007)

snowy_again said:
			
		

> Have you looked at the Community Assets programme run under the management of the Big Lottery Fund*... its dispersed ownership of "shared" assets (i.e. council owned premises) to an informal range of Vol / Com / Not for Profit organisations.


I'm pretty sure this is exactly what ABC are trying to persuade Lambeth/Govt Office for London to do.


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## editor (Jan 9, 2008)

An update from abcbrixton:


> We're concerned for the future of the project and Brixton in general.
> 
> We've been promised a decision now for a year and though we heard very positive noises up until October, we fear that a big nasty commercial scheme might swallow up Bradys.
> 
> ...


If you want to get involved with  meetings, please get go to www.abcbrixton.org


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## twistedAM (Jan 9, 2008)

ha ha..just read your piece on Bradys (www.urban75.org/brixton/features/bradys.html) and you mention the Chip Taylor song which was written about playing at one of my country'n'hiphop nights!


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## linerider (Jan 9, 2008)

twisted said:
			
		

> ha ha..just read your piece on Bradys (www.urban75.org/brixton/features/bradys.html) and you mention the Chip Taylor song which was written about playing at one of my country'n'hiphop nights!


I thought it was my night,that i let you think you ran while i did the door.


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## twistedAM (Jan 9, 2008)

linerider said:
			
		

> I thought it was my night,that i let you think you ran while i did the door.



ahhhh, so now I know who linerider is

hope all's good mate

if it ever does reopen I trust that they'll employ you as Front of House manager or whatever cool job description is in these days.

Anyway in the meantime, amuse yourself with this:
www.myspace.com/robbiefulks


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## DJWrongspeed (Jan 11, 2008)

I see Twisted in 'manager' mode is in MetroLife this morning  

More small venues in Brixton would be a great idea. The procrastination about Brady's is appalling.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 22, 2008)

So apparently things are happening on site. Stripout works and new boardup on the windows...

Anyone know what's going on?


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

Crispy said:


> So apparently things are happening on site. Stripout works and new boardup on the windows...
> 
> Anyone know what's going on?


I hope it moves faster than the Angel - it's been closed for years, but had a spruce-up last month, with the boarding taking down, windows repaired, and then.... nothing.


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## Crispy (Oct 22, 2008)

No new planning application for the building, as far as I can see.

Although reading the applications for 2008, there's a depressing amount of "Conversion of single dwelling into 3 self contained flats." 

Oh, and the ritzy plans to swap the bar and ticket hall spaces, which makes sense, but doesn't belong on this thread


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## netbob (Oct 22, 2008)

There's pending applications for flat, but I think those apply to the land behind, and might have expired. Last I heard from ABC brixton, they thought they had got the building, but I dont think had heard anything final.


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## OpalFruit (Oct 22, 2008)

Hmmm.

Last I heard from one of the other organisations that was originally interested was that the site was being snapped up for  'public interchange' or something as part of the Brixton Futures masterplan. I think that on the last version that went to public consultation it is as shown as shopping arcades as part of a pedestrian route from the back of the tube to Atlanric Rd. But I have no idea what has become of that.

Yes, Brixton needs more small venues, and arts venues. Did the plan for Oval House Theatre to move into the middle of Brixton disappear, too?


----------



## OpalFruit (Oct 22, 2008)

Crispy said:


> No new planning application for the building, as far as I can see.
> 
> Although reading the applications for 2008, there's a depressing amount of "Conversion of single dwelling into 3 self contained flats."



yes. See this thread: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=267562


----------



## ajdown (Oct 22, 2008)

OpalFruit said:


> Yes, Brixton needs more small venues, and arts venues.



I thought there were plenty of things like that to do in Brixton already.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 22, 2008)

OpalFruit said:


> yes. See this thread: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=267562


Yeah, I remember that one 

ajdown - brixton lacks a small concert venue. There's the Academy and there's a couple of nightclubs, but no dedicated small events venue.


----------



## ajdown (Oct 22, 2008)

Does Brixton have the demand for that sort of thing on a regular basis though?


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## Crispy (Oct 22, 2008)

The audience is definitely there. Offline in particular would be well suited - it's forced all the way out to Jamm at the moment. I know I'd see more live music if it was convenient to get to.


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## ajdown (Oct 22, 2008)

I guess for most people these sort of things end up being tied up with the consumption of copious quantities of alcohol in order to have what is considered to be 'a good time' - the one thing which puts me off going to them.

The last 'big name' concert I went to was Level 42 in Portsmouth about 5 years ago.  I'm not sure standing in a field listening to the Wurzels really counts.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 22, 2008)

down with this sort of thing, eh?


----------



## ajdown (Oct 22, 2008)

Not necessarily... if there's enough demand for it, then people need to work towards getting it done.  Me, no interest, so I'm not bothered.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

Crispy said:


> The audience is definitely there. Offline in particular would be well suited - it's forced all the way out to Jamm at the moment. I know I'd see more live music if it was convenient to get to.


I would have loved to put on Offline at either Cooltan or Brady's, but the fantastic vibe at those venues has long gone, sadly.

If Brady's does return - which would be great - I suspect it'll have precious little resemblance to the place of old but I'd still defintely be interested in putting something on there.





ajdown said:


> I guess for most people these sort of things end up being tied up with the consumption of copious quantities of alcohol in order to have what is considered to be 'a good time' - the one thing which puts me off going to them.


You don't need to be drunk to enjoy Offline but if you're too uptight to enjoy an amazing line up of acts put on for free, you'd best stay at home with Strictly Come Dancing.


----------



## citydreams (Oct 22, 2008)

<unsubscribes ajdown>


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## Crispy (Oct 22, 2008)

Indeed, I've been stone-cold sober at several.


----------



## ajdown (Oct 22, 2008)

editor said:


> You don't need to be drunk to enjoy Offline but if you're too uptight to enjoy an amazing line up of acts put on for free, you'd best stay at home with Strictly Come Dancing.



That would involve watching TV.  I have better things to do than vegetate.

My own difficulty with the Offline events is that they're put on at the time most convenient to the majority of people.  I don't have a problem with that, but I just, from a personal point of view, wouldn't like to be out in Brixton late (like after 11pm) trying to get home, or out that late _full stop_ - I'm not a late night person.  No, I'm not asking you to change anything about the Offline events, just understand that I have a reason for not going.

... and in all honesty, I'm not sure anyone else would be bothered that I don't go either.


----------



## twistedAM (Oct 23, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Yeah, I remember that one
> 
> ajdown - brixton lacks a small concert venue. There's the Academy and there's a couple of nightclubs, but no dedicated small events venue.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 23, 2008)

twisted said:


>


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

(I think they might be talking about Stockwell SW9, rather than Brixton SW2)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 23, 2008)

tarannau said:


> (I think they might be talking about Stockwell SW9, rather than Brixton SW2)


 

I was just wondering where Twisted had mysteriously appeared from


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

ajdown said:


> My own difficulty with the Offline events is that they're put on at the time most convenient to the majority of people..


At the last JAMM event, the cabaret started at 845.


----------



## twistedAM (Oct 23, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I was just wondering where Twisted had mysteriously appeared from



Miss me?


----------



## twistedAM (Oct 23, 2008)

tarannau said:


> (I think they might be talking about Stockwell SW9, rather than Brixton SW2)



Yes. 

(Jeez, I'm only back for five minutes after a month-long self imposed ban) and am right into a 2 versus 9 thread. Nothing changes.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 23, 2008)

twisted said:


> Miss me?


 


Of course, and I'm sure it's been longer than a month


----------



## twistedAM (Oct 23, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Of course, and I'm sure it's been longer than a month


I think it has...well done me.
Anyway I'm off again for the day. Been ill for a week as well...probably see ya tomorrow (I guess I owe it to myself to see Tits of Death)


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 23, 2008)

What were ToD called previously? I used to share a smelly reheasal space with them.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 23, 2008)

twisted said:


> I think it has...well done me.
> Anyway I'm off again for the day. Been ill for a week as well...probably see ya tomorrow (I guess I owe it to myself to see Tits of Death)


 

Have you got man flu?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

twisted said:


> Yes.
> 
> (Jeez, I'm only back for five minutes after a month-long self imposed ban) and am right into a 2 versus 9 thread. Nothing changes.



To be fair I think we're starting it really.

Still we can't have the Stockwell Johnny come-here latelys ignore the fine live music venues already available in SW2, such as the esteemed Windmill or even the surprisingly roomy and well equipped Hootahob.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 23, 2008)

tarannau said:


> such as the esteemed Windmill or even the surprisingly roomy and well equipped Hootahob.


 

are you getting rather fond of the George Hootahob?


----------



## twistedAM (Oct 23, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Have you got man flu?



Wtf is man flu? i had a cold/bug lingering from the start of the month. I ate well. Didn't drink or stay out late and for my efforts last week it exploded into a mucus fest with pretty severe (according to the doc) conjunctivitis. Eyes feel better now but still got a cold


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> are you getting rather fond of the George Hootahob?



Always been fond of the place - it's my local of umpteen years  after all. Despite their clumsy early efforts it's still a pub where I enjoy drinking, much more since they've dropped the most stupid and unsustainable aspects of the Scottish theme now. The staff no longer are forced unhappily into kilts, the live Scottish stuff has been dropped in the main, replaced by more varied acts and low key acoustic Cpt Pugwash music later on during the weeks. 

Still not a patch on the popular days of M&S running the place, but at least it's got some permanent management who care about the place now, even if they were a bit naive and misguided at first.


----------



## matt m (Oct 23, 2008)

yeah, the hootenanny appears to have sorted itself out.

as far as small music venues go, well, there's the Windmill (obviously), there's the Grosvenor, there's Jamm, there's a fair few gigs at the Ritzy Cafe, there's live music a couple of nights a week at the Telegraph... 

and there's the Cavendish in Stockwell. Though that is of course Stockwell, not brixton.

but yeah, more dedicated venues would be nice.

I keep meaning to approach the managers of Ivan's Retreat and also the Hive to ask about putting on music there. Acousticy type stuff that's low maintenance. I put on a few nights at the Grosvenor, but they've got a proper events person there now, and I'm a bit too disorganized to secure myself a regular spot. The Grosvenor has serious underused potentional IMO though. If anyone had the money and clout to put proper, decent middleweight bands on there (say, audiences around 100), it'd work really well I think.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

matt m said:


> as far as small music venues go, well, there's the Windmill (obviously), there's the Grosvenor, there's Jamm, there's a fair few gigs at the Ritzy Cafe, there's live music a couple of nights a week at the Telegraph...


And the Albert! There's at least one night of music every weekend now.


----------



## Bob (Oct 23, 2008)

matt m said:


> yeah, the hootenanny appears to have sorted itself out.
> 
> as far as small music venues go, well, there's the Windmill (obviously), there's the Grosvenor, there's Jamm, there's a fair few gigs at the Ritzy Cafe, there's live music a couple of nights a week at the Telegraph...
> 
> ...



I've only been to the Grosvenor once - but it rocked. High on my list of gig venues.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 23, 2008)

twisted said:


> Wtf is man flu?






are you being serious?


----------



## twistedAM (Oct 23, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> are you being serious?



At the risk of derailing the thread, I am being serious. It's just blokes whining innit.


----------



## ABC Brixton (Nov 11, 2008)

*Bradys Update*

Hi there. Sorry for the delay in posting, promised Editor some time ago that I'd let the boards know what's happening, but as you know these things can take a very long time and there's been nothing really significant to report until now.

The latest situation with Bradys:

ABC Brixton is the preferred bidder for the building. We've recently formed the 'Brixton Community Trust', based on the Bradys partnership, which is a charity designed to take on freehold ownership.

We've now commissioned a professional team who have started work on an 'Options Appraisal', otherwise known as a feasibility study.

There are still a few loose ends to tie up, but we're basically in agreement with the council. Providing the figures add up there's no reason the project can't go ahead. We've suggested that we open the front of the building as soon as possible, as the consulting and building work will take a couple of years. We'll also almost certainly have to at least partially demolish the back and realign the hall to accommodate a walkway between tube and train stations. There is a large site to the rear of the building, all of which can be developed, so there is an opportunity for some serious facilities there.

We will have to prove there is a demand for the project, and over the next couple of months we'll be consulting with local groups and individuals to find out what people want. I hope Urban 75 can help with this.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 11, 2008)

Excellent news! Good luck and let us know if there's anything you need help with


----------



## ABC Brixton (Nov 11, 2008)

A new thread 'what do you want to see happen in Bradys?' would be good!


----------



## editor (Nov 11, 2008)

ABC Brixton said:


> A new thread 'what do you want to see happen in Bradys?' would be good!


I reckon this thread is as good as any!

I'd like to see it used much like a legal version of Cooltan: i.e. cheap space for music/dance/drama rehearsal groups; free community training facilities with locals helping out (art/music/photography/computer skills etc); office/meeting space for campaign groups, cafe in the day, bar in the evening; cheap/free events in the evening (cough! Offline!), stage for kids drama - even a Christmas panto like Brixton used to have etc etc...

I doubt if much of the above would fit into a council-friendly proposal, but that's what I'd like.


----------



## tarannau (Nov 11, 2008)

That's fantastic news ABC. Good luck with the it - I'll try and come up with some suggestions when I've a little time.


----------



## twistedAM (Nov 11, 2008)

tarannau said:


> That's fantastic news ABC. Good luck with the it - I'll try and come up with some suggestions when I've a little time.



What, like give it a new postcode?


----------



## Fenian (Nov 11, 2008)

editor said:


> - even a Christmas panto like Brixton used to have etc etc...



Sorry to derail this but Christmas panto?  When was that?


----------



## editor (Nov 11, 2008)

Fenian said:


> Sorry to derail this but Christmas panto?  When was that?


Brixton used to be famous for its theatre and pantos.








http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/posters2.html


----------



## Fenian (Nov 12, 2008)

Wow I want to see the 1932 modern morality tale 'The Life Machine' (the mind boggles) and _"buy chocolates and cigarettes AFTER 9 o'clock!'"_ 

What a coup to put that on at a revamped Brady's.


----------



## Cowley (Nov 13, 2008)

Great news.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 31, 2009)

Bumping this thread because ABC Brixton are making real progress towards securing Brady's as a community center!



> Good news. We've now got a formal commitment from the council and are moving the project forward. Over the next two months we'll be working with consultants on the second stage of the feasibility study. We've provisionally agreed to take on the management of the building as soon as possible and open it in part -  probably the front as a cafe - until we're ready for the refurbishment.
> 
> We'll have definite plans by June. In the meantime we'll be talking to local groups and formulating the business plan. Please get in touch if you have any ideas.


----------



## editor (Jul 29, 2009)

Check this out - Bradys used to have an Alpine-style garden in 1905!






http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/bradys.html

How long has the place been shut for now?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 29, 2009)

editor said:


> Check this out - Bradys used to have an Alpine-style garden in 1905!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Wow.  Must have seemed like a little oasis.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 29, 2009)

Maybe Brady's got their garden supplies from this lot?

http://landmark.lambeth.gov.uk/display_page.asp?section=landmark&id=1623


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## jezabelbrixton (Jul 29, 2009)

I thought that a group of local artists were trying to re-open it and get funding


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jan 8, 2010)

i've just been rooting through a bunch of old papers and found the proposal from sept 2007 about renovating this place....but still no action.

any news anyone?


----------



## thriller (Jan 8, 2010)

As long it isn't turned into flats which only the rich can afford, anything will be fine.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jan 10, 2010)

The last message on their website is from Sept 2009 and says "The options appraisal is complete, and we have a viable project. "


----------



## RaverDrew (Jan 10, 2010)

Brixton Hatter said:


> i've just been rooting through a bunch of old papers and found the proposal from sept 2007 about renovating this place....but still no action.
> 
> any news anyone?



I spoke to a friend involved on NYE, stuff is still happening, just taking a bit longer than expected.


----------



## Jonti (Jan 10, 2010)

As I understand the position, ABC Brixton have made a solid proposal, and it's clearly the best proposal that's been made for the site.  But, as ever, the project has become something of a political football for conflicting factions within the Town Hall.  

Supporters need to keep up the pressure, and make sure dirty deeds and foulplay aren't used to scupper the project.


----------



## kr236rk (Apr 24, 2010)

Brady's / Railway Hotel circa 1880 ~ pray why is this not a _listed building_ please?


----------



## kr236rk (Apr 25, 2010)

ps. and watch out for this building if Brady's is standing in the way of developers or other 'interested parties' ~

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2894981.stm


----------



## ABC Brixton (May 17, 2010)

We've just got a large amount of funding for the next stage of work on Bradys. This will enable us to draw up architectural plans ready for the big bucks. If all goes well we'll be starting building work in January 2011.

This all depends on Lambeth continuing to support the project. We're promised a meeting by the end of the month and everything looks positive.

It's a long and painful process, but things really are moving. It'll be worth the wait.

To answer the question about listing:

English Heritage did not recommend listing when we applied in 2006, due to the lack of original features in the interior, but was a borderline case. The rules have now changed to take into account cultural significance - this is why the markets were listed- so I dare say that we could apply again and be successful.

However, we've managed to attract heritage funding since the building is in a conservation area, so listing won't really make much difference and may restrict alteration of the interior.


----------



## kr236rk (May 17, 2010)

*'time' ladies and gentlemen please!*



ABC Brixton said:


> To answer the question about listing:
> 
> English Heritage did not recommend listing when we applied in 2006, due to the lack of original features in the interior, but was a borderline case. The rules have now changed to take into account cultural significance - this is why the markets were listed- so I dare say that we could apply again and be successful.
> 
> However, we've managed to attract heritage funding since the building is in a conservation area, so listing won't really make much difference and may restrict alteration of the interior.



Thanks, great news about the funding!

They simply can't demolish Brady's, it is central to Brixton's skyline landscape. That clock needs to be repaired - wonderful mechanism :-o

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sharkbait/1471179825/


----------



## lordnoise (Dec 14, 2010)

This is great news ! As a former customer and employee I've been saddened to see what was THE pub (especially for the Irish community and market workers) in the centre of Brixton become derelict. I drank there when it was a Youngs pub in the 80's then worked there over a Summer when it passed over into other hands after the riots. The pub was split into 3 parts - the Vault was 'spit and sawdust' with a lino floor and catered for older members of the Black community - lots of noisey domino games going on. The large lounge bar had been given a Youngs naff 'modernisation' at some point in the 60s/70s and was a bit of a disappointment - it was seen at its best on a Sunday lunchtime when the mostly Irish clientelle in Sunday best bought there wives along for a social drink. Saturday night was a real mix with the more traditional Brixtonites coming face to face with younger 'alternative' incomers (that included me). The smaller (in the middle) saloon bar was a bit of a gem - a lovely curvy space with lots of polished wood and comfy red leather seating. It will be great to see it in use again and heres hoping at least some space will be given over to decent beer and a place for Brixtonites to simply talk to one another as it was under Youngs who had a no music policy - a love of booze and a natter was all you needed to be welcomed.


----------



## miss minnie (Dec 14, 2010)

lordnoise said:


> The smaller (in the middle) saloon bar was a bit of a gem - a lovely curvy space with lots of polished wood and comfy red leather seating.


That's the part that I remember, memory is a bit blurry bit I would have probably gone there '83/4ish?  Lovely it was too.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 14, 2010)

anyone know what's happening with this though? 

No news for quite some time....and I've not received anything from ABC Brixton. Wasn't the recent(ish) Prince Charles visit to Brixton something to do with the Princes Trust committing funding to Brady's?


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 24, 2011)

I have just heard on the grapevine that the Council are now planning to sell Bradys on the "open market" ie to the highest bidder.


----------



## editor (Feb 24, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I have just heard on the grapevine that the Council are now planning to sell Bradys on the "open market" ie to the highest bidder.


Really? I thought ABC had nailed this thing down...


----------



## editor (Feb 24, 2011)

Pics inside the building here: http://www.railwayhotel.org/


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## lordnoise (Feb 24, 2011)

Sad pics  I cant believe this is still empty. I can just about understand why private enterprise have ignored this building but how the council have sat by and allowed it to get into this state is beyond me. It was a meeting place for All Brixtonites in its day and as such a huge amenity.
(BTW can anyone tell me in which year The Clash and Pogues played Bradys ?)


----------



## ChrisSouth (Feb 25, 2011)

editor said:


> Really? I thought ABC had nailed this thing down...


 
Have ABC actually done much in Brixton. I don't mean this to sound nasty, but I'm increasingly seeing no evidence of this.


----------



## boohoo (Feb 25, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I have just heard on the grapevine that the Council are now planning to sell Bradys on the "open market" ie to the highest bidder.


 
Although not ideal, getting it done up instead of leaving it to rot is better. As long as it doesn't get bought so that it can be left to fall down.


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2011)

I'd love to do an Offline night in there. It was a great community pub.


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## Brixton Hatter (Feb 25, 2011)

So the council own it then?

Why can't we try to obtain it for community use? 

Otherwise it will just become a Waitrose with 'luxury' flats above it.


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## isvicthere? (Feb 25, 2011)

I first gigged in Brady's in 1994, and ran a night there in 1998. It was a great old venue. Shame it's likely to be just another "bah".


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## editor (Feb 25, 2011)

isvicthere? said:


> I first gigged in Brady's in 1994, and ran a night there in 1998. It was a great old venue. Shame it's likely to be just another "bah".


I know someone - an old school Brixtonite and Brady's regular - who _might_ be interested, and if they can get it at the right price it'll be anything but another _bah_.  

* fingers crossed


----------



## isvicthere? (Feb 25, 2011)

editor said:


> I know someone - an old school Brixtonite and Brady's regular - who _might_ be interested, and if they can get it at the right price it'll be anything but another _bah_.
> 
> * fingers crossed


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Feb 25, 2011)

Fingers crossed indeed.


----------



## Giles (Feb 25, 2011)

editor said:


> I know someone - an old school Brixtonite and Brady's regular - who _might_ be interested, and if they can get it at the right price it'll be anything but another _bah_.
> 
> * fingers crossed


 
It would need an awful lot of money spending on it. I went in there once years ago when the little bar was open illegally, got chatting to the guy running it, who said he used to work there when it was open "officially", and he then gave me a torchlight guided tour of the other bars and rooms. Its huge, but in a pretty bad state. 

It would be brilliant if someone could buy it, throw a load of dosh at doing it up, AND then have it as a decent pub and music venue.  

It's a shame to see a place like that rotting away for years, and somehow even worse that it's been left like this by the local council, who ought to behave better!

Have to be someone with "deep pockets".

Giles..


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Feb 25, 2011)

Why not run it as a social enterprise, instead of having a private owner? That way the needs of the community come before a profit motive.


----------



## Giles (Feb 25, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Why not run it as a social enterprise, instead of having a private owner? That way the needs of the community come before a profit motive.


 
What, like the council keep the freehold ownership, and then lease it to someone with a proviso that they have to use it in a community-minded way, maybe for a cheaper than "market" rent? 

Good idea, although I suspect that in the current economic climate, councils generally will be looking to flog off anything that they own and aren't using. 

Why did the council buy it in the first place? Wasn't it because they had some grand plan to knock that whole block down and build .... what? A shopping centre? I used to know this, but can't remember....

Did they do a compulsory purchase, only to close it, board it up and leave it to rot for years? Shocking behaviour, really.....

Giles..


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Feb 25, 2011)

Giles said:


> What, like the council keep the freehold ownership, and then lease it to someone with a proviso that they have to use it in a community-minded way, maybe for a cheaper than "market" rent?


 
Something like that, yes. The building is big enough to contain meeting rooms and a gallery/performance space, as well as a bar/cafe to fund the whole thing. There's a million community uses - arts, performances, music, use by local charity/voluntary groups, kids clubs, exhibitions etc etc.

But once it's sold, it's gone forever. 

I'm trying to find out more.......


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## editor (Feb 25, 2011)

If only they'd let the squatters stay in the first place. They'd put in a load of work to clean the place up and were already running it as a community resource.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Feb 25, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> anyone know what's happening with this though?
> 
> No news for quite some time....and I've not received anything from ABC Brixton. Wasn't the recent(ish) Prince Charles visit to Brixton something to do with the Princes Trust committing funding to Brady's?


 
The Prince's Trust WAS involved in something to do with Bradys - see press notice here: http://www.princes-regeneration.org/news.php?id=56

All quiet since then though....


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2011)

Just out of interest, what was the name of the landlord or staff there?  I remember an oldish bloke with a dodgy eye but I can't remember his name


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## twistedAM (Feb 26, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Just out of interest, what was the name of the landlord or staff there?  I remember an oldish bloke with a dodgy eye but I can't remember his name


I'll give you the names from the mid/late-90s if that's when you were thinking about.
PM me... or even better get out of the flat sometime.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 26, 2011)

twistedAM said:


> I'll give you the names from the mid/late-90s if that's when you were thinking about.
> PM me... or even better get out of the flat sometime.


 
Not that bothered, just trying to remember around what time I was going there to see Alabama 3.  Think it was probably mid-90s, maybe a bit earlier because they played at George IV a couple of times as well


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2011)

I heard that a local poet had been promised payment for a commission only last week from the folks involved in Bradys. Whatever is happening there, they really need to sharpen up their communication skills seeing as it's supposed to be a community based project.


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## Aquamarine (Feb 26, 2011)

Does it being in a conservation area afford the building any protections ?


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## twistedAM (Feb 26, 2011)

editor said:


> I heard that a local poet had been promised payment for a commission only last week from the folks involved in Bradys. Whatever is happening there, they really need to sharpen up their communication skills seeing as it's supposed to be a *community based project*.



I try to get my head round what that means.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 27, 2011)

I have now heard from ABC that there is no need to panic as situation is under control. Not clear what that means.

But as one poster says the Council are not only cutting a lot of services but starting to sell off assets.

This has not made front page news like cuts to services but is potentially equally as damaging. Once sites are sold thats it. As with the school sites that were sold off a few years ago. The Council later on finds it has little land to build new schools on.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2011)

I've done another little feature on the pub, and also researched the Annie Hall who laid the date stone.







http://www.urban75.org/blog/pic-of-the-day-bradys-clock-tower-brixton/


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## ABC Brixton (Mar 14, 2011)

Interesting to note Annie was only 17 when the stone was laid- so she must have been Mr. Allen's (the owner of the building and Allen's brewery) daughter - not wife as we previously supposed. Looking at the geneology it appears that she was married to James Pidgeon, a brewer, who presumably ran the pub and Allen's Brewery situated next door at 18 Atlantic Road (now Argos).

I think we're close to a real solution for the pub, we've done a lot of architectural work now and we're finalising plans. It has to be 'market tested' to ascertain how much Lambeth can get for it. We think (having spent a fortune on consultants) this figure is bugger all and the pub is not a commercial proposition (someone would have done it by now if it was). Of course there are many people talking big talk who haven't done the sums... 

Realistically the only answer is a grant funded scheme, with a possibility of private sector involvement.

It looks as though we'll get a yes-or no within the next couple of months. Then I can talk about something else...


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## editor (Apr 16, 2011)

I heard that pub is definitely going up for auction - and very soon.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 16, 2011)

editor said:


> I heard that pub is definitely going up for auction - and very soon.


 
Sad news.  Ideal yuppy flats that close to a mainline station (although judging by your pics of the interior, quite a bit of work needs doing)


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 17, 2011)

Thats a good new feature ed but you insist on repeating the urban75myth concerning Hendrix having played there. Have you any evidence for this ? It was a dyed in the wool Youngs House in those days and Hendrix and his guitar wouldnt have got a look in ! The music history of Brixton in those days was definately Reggae and this unsubstatiated rumour takes away from this important FACT.


----------



## happyshopper (Apr 17, 2011)

So where's your evidence that the Railway, aka known as Brady's, was owned by Young's at that time?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Thats a good new feature ed but you insist on repeating the urban75myth concerning Hendrix having played there. Have you any evidence for this ? It was a dyed in the wool Youngs House in those days and Hendrix and his guitar wouldnt have got a look in ! The music history if Brixton in those days was definately Reggae and this unsubstatiated rumour takes away from this important FACT.


 
Why is it an Urban75 myth?  Did Editor create the myth?


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Thats a good new feature ed but you insist on repeating the urban75myth concerning Hendrix having played there. Have you any evidence for this ? It was a dyed in the wool Youngs House in those days and Hendrix and his guitar wouldnt have got a look in ! The music history if Brixton in those days was definately Reggae and this unsubstatiated rumour takes away from this important FACT.


He definitely played _a_ Bradys, but it's been impossible to confirm if it was the  Railway or not: http://obie.homesite.net/jimi_hendrix_live.htm 

He regularly played the nearby Ram Jam Club and local rumour has it that he would jam at Bradys after. http://www.richdickinsonsdf.co.uk/hendrix_gig_list.htm

I'm interested in your story that it was a reggae pub - have you any posters/flyers from that time as I'd be only too happy to update the information.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 17, 2011)

editor said:


> He definitely played _a_ Bradys, but it's been impossible to confirm if it was the  Railway or not: http://obie.homesite.net/jimi_hendrix_live.htm
> 
> He played the nearby Ram Jam Club and local rumour has it that he would jam at Bradys after.
> 
> I'm interested in your story that it was a reggae pub - have you any posters/flyers from that time as I'd be only too happy to update the information.


 
Maybe it was the Russell Hotel Bradys?


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 17, 2011)

happyshopper said:


> So where's your evidence that the Railway, aka known as Brady's, was owned by Young's at that time?



It was a Youngs pub before they sold it after the riots in the 80s.


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> It was a Youngs pub before they sold it after the riots in the 80s.


Can you find some documentation for this as I'd love to update the story - especially as the word is that it's going up for auction this week. I hope we don't end up with the rumoured Tesco fucking Metro.


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 17, 2011)

LOL ! The Railway a reggae pub  My point was that musical history of (sorry for the typo in my original post) _Brixton_ in the 70s and 80s was predominantly concerned with reggae not rock. My underdstanding is that the Ram Jam Club was mostly soul orientated and only became a rock venue when it was resurrected as the Fridge in the 80s. 

Can you point me at the dates in those Hendrix websites where Bradys is mentioned ?


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Can you point me at the dates in those Hendrix websites where Bradys is mentioned ?


He's listed as playing a London Bradys on 19th Feb 1967 on the first link - but post-gig jam sessions aren't listed. Not entirely sure that Brixton was 'predominantly concerned' with reggae not rock either - there was a very active squat/punk scene here.


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 17, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Why is it an Urban75 myth?  Did Editor create the myth?



If you stick Brixton and Hendrix into google most entries have an urban75 source. BTW I'm not trying to hint at any wrong doing by anyone. 
Out of interest I think this page:

http://www.mattlox.com/taxonomy/term/2

 might be the source of 'the myth'


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> LOL ! The Railway a reggae pub  My point was that musical history of (sorry for the typo in my original post) _Brixton_ *in the 70s and 80s was predominantly concerned with reggae not rock. My underdstanding is that the Ram Jam Club was mostly soul orientated and only became a rock venue when it was resurrected as the Fridge in the 80s. *
> 
> Can you point me at the dates in those Hendrix websites where Bradys is mentioned ?



Doesn't mean rock wasn't played.

As for the Ramjam, does that mean Hendrix played soul?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> If you stick Brixton and Hendrix into google most entries have an urban75 source. BTW I'm not trying to hint at any wrong doing by anyone.
> Out of interest I think this page:
> 
> http://www.mattlox.com/taxonomy/term/2
> ...


 
I doubt it.  I reckon that website is relatively new but as I don't know how to find out when a website was created, I'm probably wrong


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> If you stick Brixton and Hendrix into google most entries have an urban75 source. BTW I'm not trying to hint at any wrong doing by anyone.
> Out of interest I think this page:
> 
> http://www.mattlox.com/taxonomy/term/2
> ...


I used the phrase "_reputed_ to have played" in the original article rather carefully, because despite having several people tell me that he did jam at Bradys, I've yet to find any solid evidence. It may well be that due to the nature of the event it wasn't documented.


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 17, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Doesn't mean rock wasn't played.
> 
> As for the Ramjam, does that mean Hendrix played soul?



Sorry Minnie the music that defined Brixton in the 70s and 80s was reggae - mostly through the sound systems in pubs like the Atlantic (now Dog Star) or in the shebeens in Railton and Mayall Rds. You went to Camden for rock bands.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> If you stick Brixton and Hendrix into google most entries have an urban75 source.


 
Most don't actually, unless you're assuming they all took their information from U75


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Sorry Minnie the music that defined Brixton in the 70s and 80s was reggae - mostly through the sound systems in pubs like the Atlantic (now Dog Star) or in the shebeens in Railton and Mayall Rds. You went to Camden for rock bands.



So what was he playing at the Ramjam?

Did you see post 343?


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 17, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So what was he playing at the Ramjam?
> 
> Did you see post 343?



Indeed Jimi Hendrix was playing rock music at The Ram Jam in the 1960s.


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## lordnoise (Apr 17, 2011)

editor said:


> He's listed as playing a London Bradys on 19th Feb 1967 on the first link - but post-gig jam sessions aren't listed. Not entirely sure that Brixton was 'predominantly concerned' with reggae not rock either - there was a very active squat/punk scene here.



Now your really going to think I have it in for you ! Given that The Railway was a non music venue Youngs pub until just after the first riots its highly unlikely that The Clash played there with one of their original Punk era line ups. It would be interesting to find out what year they are supposed to have played Bradys.


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Now your really going to think I have it in for you ! Given that The Railway was a non music venue Youngs pub until just after the first riots its highly unlikely that The Clash played there with one of their original Punk era line ups. It would be interesting to find out what year they are supposed to have played Bradys.


I'm happy to correct the article but so far all you're giving me is your opinion, so I'd appreciate some kind of documentation.

FYI: the Railway has always had a large function room in the back and it was certainly actively putting on gigs in 1993. The Brixton Riots were 1981. The Clash didn't split up until 1986. I made no mention of "original Punk era line ups" in the article. 

In fact, I don't even say that The Clash played there but instead said, "The film 'Rude Boy' by the Clash features scenes shot in the Railway Hotel."


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> The music history of Brixton in those days was definately Reggae and this unsubstatiated rumour takes away from this important FACT.


 


lordnoise said:


> point was that musical history of (sorry for the typo in my original post) _Brixton_ in the 70s and 80s was predominantly concerned with reggae not rock. My underdstanding is that the* Ram Jam Club was mostly soul orientated*


 


lordnoise said:


> Sorry Minnie the music that defined Brixton in the* 70s and 80s was reggae* - mostly through the sound systems in pubs like the Atlantic (now Dog Star) or in the shebeens in Railton and Mayall Rds. *You went to Camden for rock bands.*


 


lordnoise said:


> *Indeed Jimi Hendrix was playing rock music at The Ram Jam in the 1960s.*



So, you're talking about reggae being the dominant scene in Brixton in the 70s and 80s, but Hendrix played here (reputedly), in 1967, in a *SOUL *club


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 17, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So, you're talking about reggae being the dominant scene in Brixton in the 70s and 80s, but Hendrix played here (reputedly), in 1967, in a *SOUL *club



Well apart from the George Canning (Hobgoblin/Hootenanny) name me a venue in Brixton in the 70s and 80s where you could see a rock band. Brixton didnt have a recognised venue on the very influential 'pub rock' scene. You came to Brixton to hear reggae.


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Well apart from the George Canning (Hobgoblin/Hootenanny) name me a venue in Brixton in the 70s and 80s where you could see a rock band. Brixton didnt have a recognised venue on the very influential 'pub rock' scene. You came to Brixton to hear reggae.


The Fridge, from 1981. 



> The Fridge is one of the longest running independent night-clubs in London.  To attend The Fridge is to be cool; to enter it is to enter an oven.  On the best nights there is scarcely a dry brow in the house. The dance floor is a frenzy of gyrating bodies, dressed down in minimal chic, dressed up in outrageous kitsch.  Unlike some other clubs, the atmosphere is always friendly.* Even the bouncers smile as they patrol the borders.
> 
> With a crowd that mixes locals with West Enders, black and white, gay and straight, The Fridge is the ultimate melting pot. Their roster of acts reads like a Who’s Who of modern music.  The Pet Shop Boys and Erasure played there; Eartha Kitt growled there, Sandie Shaw was scared to go on stage and Annie Lennox burst into tears on the Eurythmics’ first gig there.
> 
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 17, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Sorry Minnie the music that defined Brixton in the 70s and 80s was reggae - mostly through the sound systems in pubs like the Atlantic (now Dog Star) or in the shebeens in Railton and Mayall Rds. You went to Camden for rock bands.


 
I believe The Clash played at The Telegraph.  George IV used to have bands as well, none particularly famous although Alabama 3 and Topcats used to play there  


lordnoise said:


> Well apart from the George Canning (Hobgoblin/Hootenanny) name me a venue in Brixton in the 70s and 80s where you could see a rock band. Brixton didnt have a recognised venue on the very influential 'pub rock' scene. You came to Brixton to hear reggae.


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 17, 2011)

editor said:


> I'm happy to correct the article but so far all you're giving me is your opinion, so I'd appreciate some kind of documentation.
> 
> FYI: the Railway has always had a large function room in the back and it was certainly actively putting on gigs in 1993. The Brixton Riots were 1981. The Clash didn't split up until 1986. I made no mention of "original Punk era line ups" in the article.
> 
> In fact, I don't even say that The Clash played there but instead said, "The film 'Rude Boy' by the Clash features scenes shot in the Railway Hotel."



Sorry ed I only have my memories of The Railway beng a Youngs pub. I do remember Youngs got a lot of negative publicity by pulling out of central Brixton after the riots though. I worked behind the bar at The Railway for the first (Irish) pubco who owned it after Youngs - they kept it for 2/3 years and didnt put music on either ! If The Clash did play there it will have been on of Strummers later reincarnations of the band. It would be interesting to come up with an actual date though.


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 18, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I believe The Clash played at The Telegraph.  George IV used to have bands as well, none particularly famous although Alabama 3 and Topcats used to play there



Fair enough Minnie but my memory of those Brixton Hill pubs is that they were old school boozers until the 90s possibly very late 80s.


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 18, 2011)

editor said:


> The Fridge, from 1981.



The Fridge was in the old Ram Jam venue and like The Academy later tended to put the bigger established acts on. My memory of the first bands to play there where that they were the more established 'New Wave' acts. When it first opened it was strange seeing the posters for rock acts amongst the posters for the sound systems playing the Town Hall or the night clubs in Peckham.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 18, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Fair enough Minnie but my memory of those Brixton Hill pubs is that they were old school boozers until the 90s possibly very late 80s.



Old school boozers that had bands playing in them.  I was drinking in the George IV and watching bands like the Top Cats and Alabama 3 in the early 90s

The Clash apparently played The Telegraph much earlier

and just because they may not have had live bands earlier than that doesn't mean that Brady's or the Russell Brady's didn't


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## lordnoise (Apr 18, 2011)

Its interesting that it seems easier to find out about things that happened in Victorian pubs in Brixton (as in some of the other fascinating historical threads on here) than events that happened within living memory !


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 18, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Its interesting that it seems easier to find out about things that happened in Victorian pubs in Brixton (as in some of the other fascinating historical threads on here) than events that happened within living memory !


 
Everyone was too skint in the 70s and 80s to take photos


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## editor (Apr 18, 2011)

There was loads of rock/ punk rock gigs in Brixton in the 80s. 
Apart from the Academy/Fair Deal, the Town Hall was putting on punk gigs in the early 80s: http://www.rockpopmem.com/Chelsea-Chelsea-Brixton-Gig-Poster/65412.htm and the Ace put on *stacks* of rock gigs in the 80s (e.g. UK Subs in 1983: http://www.uksubs.co.uk/reviews.html). Even I played there!

If you don't believe me, search Google for:
brixton gigs 1980
brixton gigs 1981
brixton gigs 1982
brixton gigs 1983 etc etc


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 18, 2011)

Don't know if you've ever come across this Editor (in relation to the Swiss Garden bit of the Railway)



> A " Garden Restaurant " in connection with licensed
> premises is also a novelty. At the Railway Hotel,
> in Atlantic Road, Brixton, one can command luncheons,
> teas and suppers amid very pleasant surroundings.
> ...


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 18, 2011)

editor said:


> There was loads of rock/ punk rock gigs in Brixton in the 80s.
> Apart from the Academy/Fair Deal, the Town Hall was putting on punk gigs in the early 80s: http://www.rockpopmem.com/Chelsea-Chelsea-Brixton-Gig-Poster/65412.htm and the Ace put on *stacks* of rock gigs in the 80s (e.g. UK Subs in 1983: http://www.uksubs.co.uk/reviews.html). Even I played there!
> 
> If you don't believe me, search Google for:
> ...



I'd forgotten The Ace which now houses The Fridge ! To be fair the Town Hall was most used - by far - as a venue by reggae sound systems and DJs and I still stand by my assertion that the music that defined Brixton in the 70s and 80s was reggae.


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## lordnoise (Apr 18, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Everyone was too skint in the 70s and 80s to take photos


 
Everyone was certainly too _something_ in the 70s and 80s !


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## editor (Apr 18, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> I'd forgotten The Ace which now houses The Fridge ! To be fair the Town Hall was most used - by far - as a venue by reggae sound systems and DJs and I still stand by my assertion that the music that defined Brixton in the 70s and 80s was reggae.


Surely that _very much_ depends on who you were and what you were into? There's always been loads of different sorts of music going on in Brixton as those Google gig searches will prove. Reggae was clearly a big part, but there was a big punk/new wave/squat scene too. And don't forget disco and the other mainstream dance stuff that's always been popular.


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## happyshopper (Apr 18, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Sorry ed I only have my memories of The Railway beng a Youngs pub. I do remember Youngs got a lot of negative publicity by pulling out of central Brixton after the riots though. I worked behind the bar at The Railway for the first (Irish) pubco who owned it after Youngs .



Sorry but this memory doesn't add up. It was a Brady's in 1980 before the riots. I remember because I agreed to meet someone at Brady's, so went to Railway - but they meant the Russell. So we're just left with your memory vs. my memory.


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## lordnoise (Apr 18, 2011)

happyshopper said:


> Sorry but this memory doesn't add up. It was a Brady's in 1980 before the riots. I remember because I agreed to meet someone at Brady's, so went to Railway - but they meant the Russell. So we're just left with your memory vs. my memory.



Whats more to the point - was the Bradys you remember a music venue before the riots ?


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## lordnoise (Apr 18, 2011)

editor said:


> Surely that _very much_ depends on who you were and what you were into? There's always been loads of different sorts of music going on in Brixton as those Google gig searches will prove. Reggae was clearly a big part, but there was a big punk/new wave/squat scene too. And don't forget disco and the other mainstream dance stuff that's always been popular.



Sorry ed there wasnt a huge Punk scene in Brixton - true there was the odd gig at the Town Hall and somewhere like the Telegraph may have put on the odd punk band without really understanding what was going on. By the time that the Fridge opened in the early 80s punk was over and they played mostly new wave/indie stuff. Dont overestimate the influence of The Fridge back then though it was simply one of many venues of its type in London and played to a mainly white audience. On the streets and in the vast majority of pubs and drinking dens Reggae was definately the King of music in Brixton.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 18, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Sorry ed there wasnt a huge Punk scene in Brixton - true there was the odd gig at the Town Hall and somewhere like* the Telegraph may have put on the odd punk band without really understanding what was going on. *By the time that the Fridge opened in the early 80s punk was over and they played mostly new wave/indie stuff. Dont overestimate the influence of The Fridge back then though it was simply one of many venues of its type in London and played to a mainly white audience. On the streets and in the vast majority of pubs and drinking dens Reggae was definately the King of music in Brixton.



What's that supposed to mean?  You think *everyone* listened to reggae?


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 18, 2011)

So I went to The Minet Rd archive today to try and find evidence for The Railway Hotel having been a Youngs pub and guess what ? It wasn’t. It did sell Youngs beer though ! I found a file on pubs in Brixton and there was a ‘Real Ale in Brixton 1979’ guide which lists the beers as Youngs Special, Fullers ESB and Bass amongst others. Theres no way that Youngs would have allowed Fullers beer to be sold on its premises so it must have been a privately owned free house. I went to the electoral register to see who lived at The Railway Hotel 20 Atlantic Rd in the period in question and found the names of the Irish couple I remember running it in 79/80 – John and Ann Galloghy (along with the names of other Irish bar staff living there). I was surprised to find that they’d run it since 1969 and before them back to 1965 (I didn’t go further) a series of more Irish names – Dunn, Dooley, Queally and so on – clearly a pub with Irish connections back in the mid 60s. 
Given the severely traditional no music Youngs like feel of the pub when I knew it under the Galloghys in 79/80 it is highly unlikely that there was a music club called Bradys there in 1967. Remember too that  there was no seperate function room at The Railway -  the large area where bands played when it was Bradys was the main lounge bar with no stage.

John and Anne aren’t listed in 1981 so I think they or whoever owned it sold it either after the first riots or perhaps because of the boycott of the pub by Brixtons politicos after the Galloghys banned 2 lesbians who refused to stop snogging in the lounge bar !
In 1982 a bloke called Larry Mutch is listed as living there. Its at this time 81/82 when it may have started being called Bradys. It was bought by an Irish pub company who later bought the Russell Hotel towards Kennington calling it Bradys too. A year later in 1983 Dave Roberts who was my boss when I worked there as student is listed as living there as bar manager. Hes there in 1984 too and I know Dave kept it pretty much the same as the Galloghys did  ie. a basic music free boozer for the remnants of the Irish community and the market workers.
In 1985 and 86 Justin Egan lives there which is when I lose touch with the pub. So in reality it can only have been a music venue from 1985 onwards and if the Clash did play there it was with a fag end line up - they definately didn’t play there at their height in the mid/late 70s. Certainly the live gig featured in the film Rude Boy (78/79) cant have been filmed at The Railway and I cant see any other scenes in the film that look like they're filmed in one of the bars.

I revere the music and memory of Hendrix and the Clash as much as anybody - I’m also desperately sad about The Railway Hotels fortunes since it closed but until someone can come up with proof that these two hugely important bands played there surely these myths should be put to one side. Whatever future lies ahead for The Railway/Bradys lets make sure its based on fact not myth.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 18, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> So I went to The Minet Rd archive today to try and find evidence for The *Railway Hotel having been a Youngs pub and guess what ? It wasn’t.* It did sell Youngs beer though ! I found a file on pubs in Brixton and there was a ‘Real Ale in Brixton 1979’ guide which lists the beers as Youngs Special, Fullers ESB and Bass amongst others. Theres no way that Youngs would have allowed Fullers beer to be sold on its premises so it must have been a privately owned free house. I went to the electoral register to see who lived at The Railway Hotel 20 Atlantic Rd in the period in question and found the names of the Irish couple I remember running it in 79/80 – John and Ann Galloghy (along with the names of other Irish bar staff living there). I was surprised to find that they’d run it since 1969 and before them back to 1965 (I didn’t go further) a series of more Irish names – Dunn, Dooley, Queally and so on – clearly a pub with Irish connections back in the mid 60s.
> Given the severely traditional no music Youngs like feel of the pub when I knew it under the Galloghys in 79/80 *it is highly unlikely that there was a music club called Bradys there in 1967.* Remember too that  there was no seperate function room at The Railway -  the large area where bands played when it was Bradys was the main lounge bar with no stage.



So, for the last few pages, *you've been absolutely adamant that it was a Young's pub and have been proved wrong*.  So how do you know you're not wrong about what bands were playing in various pubs?



> Whatever future lies ahead for The Railway/Bradys lets make sure its based on fact not myth.



There's plenty of myths/legends/rumours throughout history, so why not?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 18, 2011)

BTW:  I spoke to someone today who used to drink in The Cricketers (near Oval) and rock bands regularly played there apparently


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## editor (Apr 18, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> BTW:  I spoke to someone today who used to drink in The Cricketers (near Oval) and rock bands regularly played there apparently


It was a very popular rock venue. I went to quite a few gigs there.


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 18, 2011)

"There's plenty of myths/legends/rumours throughout history, so why not?"

Personally I'll go for the truth every time !

Come on Minnie - you've been very rigorous in the past over Brixtons history. Why soft pedal over this important historical subject ? (or has it defeated your Holmesian powers ?)


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 18, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> "There's plenty of myths/legends/rumours throughout history, so why not?"
> 
> Personally I'll go for the truth every time !
> 
> Come on Minnie - you've been very rigorous in the past over Brixtons history. Why soft pedal over this important historical subject ? (or has it defeated your Holmesian powers ?)


 
Not at all, but it's you that has the problem with it, so instead of just disputing it, why don't you disprove it?  *You've already now realised it wasn't a Young's pub after being so adamant it was. *

Editor has pointed out that Brixton had a rock/punk scene (that it seems you were unaware of), and yet you were still adamant that it's highly unlikely bands played at the Railway because reggae dominated Brixton and because you were a barman at the Railway so because you didn't see it evidence of it, it obviously didn't happen 

As for being rigorous in the past over Brixton's history, not sure where you got that from


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 18, 2011)

editor said:


> It was a very popular rock venue. I went to quite a few gigs there.


 
Make sure lordnoise knows all about it then


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## lordnoise (Apr 18, 2011)

I saw Frank Sidebottom there !


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## miss minnie (Apr 18, 2011)

editor said:


> It was a very popular rock venue. I went to quite a few gigs there.


Indeed!  Not entirely sure how reliable they are but I have memories of seeing John Cooper Clark, Ian Dury, Wilko Johnson, World Domination Enterprises there amongst many, many others.  Geno Washington used to be on a lot iirc.  Gah, so many more names on the tip of my tongue!


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## lordnoise (Apr 18, 2011)

I think .....


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## editor (Apr 18, 2011)

The original Brady's pub was at the Russell Hotel.
http://www.urban75.org/brixton/bars/russell-hotel.html







Of course, that still doesn't mean that Hendrix may, or may not, have jammed at the Bradys/Railway Hotel or not. For all we know, he could have been playing an acoustic guitar in the corner.

And before anyone starts: yes, he did play acoustic too:


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## miss minnie (Apr 18, 2011)

Perhaps he just hummed along to a few tunes on the jukebox, it still qualifies! imo


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 18, 2011)

editor said:


> The original Brady's pub was at the Russell Hotel.
> http://www.urban75.org/brixton/bars/russell-hotel.html
> 
> 
> ...


 
Maybe he'd heard it was an Irish bar and was just curious to see what an Irish bar was like.  Maybe he wanted to see if diddly dee music appealed to him


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## lordnoise (Apr 19, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not at all, but it's you that has the problem with it, so instead of just disputing it, why don't you disprove it?  *You've already now realised it wasn't a Young's pub after being so adamant it was. *
> 
> Editor has pointed out that Brixton had a rock/punk scene (that it seems you were unaware of), and yet you were still adamant that it's highly unlikely bands played at the Railway because reggae dominated Brixton and because you were a barman at the Railway so because you didn't see it evidence of it, it obviously didn't happen
> 
> As for being rigorous in the past over Brixton's history, not sure where you got that from




LOL !  - I spent 3 hours in Minet Rd today trying to get to the bottom of this conundrum - dont I get any brownie points for my efforts ? And as for The Railway being a Youngs pub - at least my memory served me up the correct brand of beer !

Ed has pointed out that in his opinion Brixton had a thriving Punk scene and I repeat that in my experience of being involved in the Punk scene (albiet at a distance) it didnt or at least no more so than any other part of London - sure enough Brixton had lots of disaffected youth but they were mostly Black and listened to reggae. Rock music came to Brixton via The Fridge and Academy in the early 80s. Both were larger venues that attracted people from all over London and until The Railway became Bradys and put live music on Brixton didnt have a pub rock scene either. BTW your right I was a barman (and drinker) at the Railway from 1979 to around 1984 and I didnt see any rock bands because non played there.

I appeal to you again Minnie - show the same interest in and rigour for the truth over Brixtons pub history as you do in this thread :

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/th...-Tavern-on-Coldharbour-Lane-Moorlands-Rd-SW9?

and perhaps we could put this Hendrix/Clash/Railway/Bradys conundrum to bed all the sooner !


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## editor (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Ed has pointed out that in his opinion Brixton had a thriving Punk scene and I repeat that in my experience of being involved in the Punk scene (albiet at a distance) it didnt or at least no more so than any other part of London - sure enough Brixton had lots of disaffected youth but they were mostly Black and listened to reggae.


You're really talking rubbish here. You don't have to be "disaffected" to be into the rock, reggae or punk scenes and the notion that most of the white youth were all somehow all contented in comparison during this period is just plain weird. Haven't you heard of the 121 Centre? 



> From 1981 to 1999, the three floors of the 121 Centre, 121 Railton Road, Brixton, South London hosted a squatted autonomous centre, serving the local community as as a bookshop, cafe, gig and rehearsal space, printing facility, office and meeting space.
> 
> Over the years, several campaign and community groups were based at the centre, including radical women's magazine Bad Attitude, AnarQuist (the anarcho-queer group), Brixton Squatters' Aid and the prisoner support group Anarchist Black Cross.
> 
> ...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> I appeal to you again Minnie - show the same interest in and rigour for the truth over Brixtons pub history as you do in this thread :
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/th...-Tavern-on-Coldharbour-Lane-Moorlands-Rd-SW9?



Did you see this news:



> Christians mark Jesus Christ's Last Supper on Maundy Thursday, but new research suggests it took place on the Wednesday before his crucifixion.



People have happily believed that for thousands of years without any proof


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## lordnoise (Apr 19, 2011)

editor said:


> You're really talking rubbish here. You don't have to be "disaffected" to be into the rock, reggae or punk scenes and the notion that most of the white youth were all somehow all contented in comparison during this period is just plain weird. Haven't you heard of the 121 Centre?



I remember some of them - I lived across the road at 113 Mayall. They meant well but were on the periphery of what was really going on. The ordinary kids and youths of the area are the real story of Brixton in the 70s and 80s. Joe Strummer wrote a song about them - you may know it.


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## story (Apr 19, 2011)

I saw bands at The fridge when it was upstairs from the KFC on Brixton Road. That was long before it was in its current location. And I saw guitar bands at The Ritzy when it was a derelict flea pit, and at Prince of Wales before they sold part of it to Pizza Hut.

So rock and guitar music was in Brixton before the early eighties.

And what about The Old White Horse? That was a belting punk/ pub rock venue back in the day.

And don't forget the deep connection between Punk and Reggae.


----------



## story (Apr 19, 2011)

editor said:


> It was a very popular rock venue. I went to quite a few gigs there.


 
Me too.


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## lordnoise (Apr 19, 2011)

story said:


> I saw bands at The fridge when it was upstairs from the KFC on Brixton Road. That was long before it was in its current location. And I saw guitar bands at The Ritzy when it was a derelict flea pit, and at Prince of Wales before they sold part of it to Pizza Hut.
> 
> So rock and guitar music was in Brixton before the early eighties.
> 
> ...




Of course there was rock and guitar music in Brixton pre 1980 - just not a huge amount of it - probably the same amount as Camberwell that other well known rock and roll area. The Old White Horse Brixton Rd was a non music pub until the very late 80s early 90s. I'm not forgetting the connection between punk and reggae - every Clash gig started with at a few dub tracks and any punk DJ worth their salt played reggae music at some point.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Of course there was rock and guitar music in Brixton pre 1980 - just not a huge amount of it - probably the same amount as Camberwell that other well known rock and roll area. The Old White Horse Brixton Rd was a non music pub until the very late 80s early 90s. I'm not forgetting the connection between punk and reggae - every Clash gig started with at a few dub tracks and any punk DJ worth their salt played reggae music at some point.


I think you're very much guilty of projecting your own personal opinions and experiences of that time on to the whole of Brixton. Did you ever go to the 121 Centre, for example?


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Of course there was rock and guitar music in Brixton pre 1980 - just not a huge amount of it - probably the same amount as Camberwell that other well known rock and roll area. The Old White Horse Brixton Rd was a non music pub until the very late 80s early 90s. I'm not forgetting the connection between punk and reggae - every Clash gig started with at a few dub tracks and any punk DJ worth their salt played reggae music at some point.


I think you're very much guilty of projecting your own personal opinions and experiences of that time on to the whole of Brixton. Did you ever go to the 121 Centre, for example?


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 19, 2011)

No however I used to meet some of the members on my travels. Although you make it sound like a drop in centre for all local folk it was only effectively used by a small group of people. I think its important not to paint too rosy a picture of Brixton back then they were very hard times for everyone.


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## lordnoise (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Of course there was rock and guitar music in Brixton pre 1980 - just not a huge amount of it - probably the same amount as Camberwell that other well known rock and roll area. The Old White Horse Brixton Rd was a non music pub until the very late 80s early 90s. I'm not forgetting the connection between punk and reggae - every Clash gig started with at a few dub tracks and any punk DJ worth their salt played reggae music at some point.



Sorry mate I do remember a period when a landlord experimented with bands and djs down there. Apologies.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> No however I used to meet some of the members on my travels. Although you make it sound like a drop in centre for all local folk it was only effectively used by a small group of people. I think its important not to paint too rosy a picture of Brixton back then they were very hard times for everyone.


Really not seeing where I've supposedly been painting a "rosy picture" here or where you're getting this "drop in centre" bit from.


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## story (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Sorry mate I do remember a period when a landlord experimented with bands and djs down there. Apologies.


 
Aye.

And because I was seeing bands in Brixton as much as I was anywhere else (including Camden, Holborn, Hammersmith....), it was no less important as a destination for live music than anywhere else, for me.

But I can't say I recall going to Brady's.


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 19, 2011)

editor said:


> Really not seeing where I've supposedly been painting a "rosy picture" here or where you're getting this "drop in centre" bit from.


 
Theres lots talked on here about the (inevitable imo) gentrification of Brixton. Historys a different matter altogether. So - especially on a beautiful day like today in and around Brixton in 2011 - I think its important to remember just how much serious depravation there was in Brixton in the 70s and 80s. Some residents (like myself) chose to be there but the majority had no choice whatsoever and that fact shouldnt be forgotten.


----------



## newbie (Apr 19, 2011)

story said:


> I saw bands at The fridge when it was upstairs from the KFC on Brixton Road. That was long before it was in its current location. And I saw guitar bands at The Ritzy when it was a derelict flea pit, and at Prince of Wales before they sold part of it to Pizza Hut.




When it was done up to become Little Bit Ritzy it had a stage and bands played there fairly regularly.  Also sold great cake 

This whole subthread is a bit weird tbh.  The notion that 'disaffected youth' in Brixton were mostly black is all well and good but it airbrushes out the thousands of local squatters, most of whom were white, and many of whom lived, very visibly, in big communal spaces, whole streets or blocks.  There were parties, there were gigs, bands played, people were entertained.  It's a bit fanciful to imagine that people who wanted music other than reggae had to go to Camden or somewhere.

For completeness I'd also add that for a few years the Brixton Sundown was a fine venue where I saw some great bands, none opf which I can remember


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 19, 2011)

newbie said:


> When it was done up to become Little Bit Ritzy it had a stage and bands played there fairly regularly.  Also sold great cake
> 
> This whole subthread is a bit weird tbh.  The notion that 'disaffected youth' in Brixton were mostly black is all well and good but it airbrushes out the thousands of local squatters, most of whom were white, and many of whom lived, very visibly, in big communal spaces, whole streets or blocks.  There were parties, there were gigs, bands played, people were entertained.  It's a bit fanciful to imagine that people who wanted music other than reggae had to go to Camden or somewhere.
> 
> For completeness I'd also add that for a few years the Brixton Sundown was a fine venue where I saw some great bands, none opf which I can remember



I have a fear of history overplaying the role and exaggerating the predicament of those of who you speak newbie. Intellectuals have a habit of bigging themselves up when they write the history books. Sorry for repeating myself but those times were really all about the crap that the black community went through and I dont care what anyone says Brixton was a shocking place to listen to rock music until The Fridge got into full gear in the late 80s


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 19, 2011)

How old are you lordnoise? Just wondering like.


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## editor (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Sorry for repeating myself but those times were really all about the crap that the black community went through and I dont care what anyone says Brixton was a shocking place to listen to rock music until The Fridge got into full gear in the late 80s


The Fridge was in "full gear" way before the late 1980s, attracting the likes of King Kurt, the Eurythmics, Pet Shop Boys, Boy George, Sisters of Mercy, Frankie Goes To Hollywood, New Order and Marc Almond by 1983.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 19, 2011)

You forgot the Frank Chickens and also Alien Sex Fiend!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 19, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> You forgot the Frank Chickens and also Alien Sex Fiend!


 

Oh, Frank Chickens?!  Weren't they two Japanese girls who did a comedy act?  Or am I getting them confused with someone else?

They played a couple of times at the George IV


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Theres lots talked on here about the (inevitable imo) gentrification of Brixton. Historys a different matter altogether. So - especially on a beautiful day like today in and around Brixton in 2011 - I think its important to remember just how much serious depravation there was in Brixton in the 70s and 80s. Some residents (like myself) chose to be there but the majority had no choice whatsoever and that fact shouldnt be forgotten.



I get the impression you think that only applied to blacks.  There were plenty of whites in the area then - working class whites, not the middle classes you have nowadays


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 19, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh, Frank Chickens?!  Weren't they two Japanese girls who did a comedy act?


I wouldn't call it a comedy act. It was singing with added fun.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 19, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I wouldn't call it a comedy act. It was singing with added fun.


 
But they were two Japanese girls yes?

Have checked it's the same ones and it would seem so.

Well they wree obviously considered comedic enough to play at the Comedy Pit in the George IV in the days when Jo Brand, Eddie Izzard etc. were performing


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## lang rabbie (Apr 19, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh, Frank Chickens?!  Weren't they two Japanese girls who did a comedy act?  Or am I getting them confused with someone else?
> 
> They played a couple of times at the George IV


 
Fringe arts royalty these days - I surreally caught up with them doing a Chinese New Year show at The Royal Opera House in 2007.


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## story (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> I have a fear of history overplaying the role and exaggerating the predicament of those of who you speak newbie. Intellectuals have a habit of bigging themselves up when they write the history books. Sorry for repeating myself but those times were really all about the crap that the black community went through and I dont care what anyone says Brixton was a shocking place to listen to rock music until The Fridge got into full gear in the late 80s


 
But Brixton was not, like, some kind of black-only ghetto with no white people.

And what do you mean by "intellectuals"? The people I remember going to gigs with - here in Brixton and elsewhere - were in the main disaffected youth, although we didn't think of ourselves in that way. So far as I know, none of them (us) grew up to be intellectuals. Loads of them died, ended up in prison, joined the Convoy... others slipped into relative obscurity in the suburbs....

And I don't remember Brixton venues being "shocking", no more so than any other place anyway (Clarendon, anyone?).

And I certainly definitely went to gigs with guitar music and white people in Brixton in the late seventies and early eighties.


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## story (Apr 19, 2011)

> Originally Posted by lordnoise
> Theres lots talked on here about the (inevitable imo) gentrification of Brixton. Historys a different matter altogether. So - especially on a beautiful day like today in and around Brixton in 2011 - *I think its important to remember just how much serious depravation there was in Brixton in the 70s and 80s.* Some residents (like myself) chose to be there but the majority had no choice whatsoever and that fact shouldnt be forgotten.



I don't think anyone is trying to forget it. But that's not the only thing that was happening. And it was informing the local music scene. 

I went to some amazing squat parties down here in the late 70s, one at least with several punk bands playing in a back garden, and rumours flying that The Clash would make an appearance. And black people were at those parties too.


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## editor (Apr 19, 2011)

story said:


> I went to some amazing squat parties down here in the late 70s, one at least with several punk bands playing in a back garden, and rumours flying that The Clash would make an appearance. And black people were at those parties too.


Indeed. The Cooltan squat that followed on from that scene was always fairly mixed.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> So I went to The Minet Rd archive today to try and find evidence for The Railway Hotel having been a Youngs pub and guess what ? It wasn’t. It did sell Youngs beer though ! I found a file on pubs in Brixton and there was a ‘Real Ale in Brixton 1979’ guide which lists the beers as Youngs Special, Fullers ESB and Bass amongst others. Theres no way that Youngs would have allowed Fullers beer to be sold on its premises so it must have been a privately owned free house. I went to the electoral register to see who lived at The Railway Hotel 20 Atlantic Rd in the period in question and found the names of the Irish couple I remember running it in 79/80 – John and Ann Galloghy (along with the names of other Irish bar staff living there). I was surprised to find that they’d run it since 1969 and before them back to 1965 (I didn’t go further) a series of more Irish names – Dunn, Dooley, Queally and so on – clearly a pub with Irish connections back in the mid 60s.
> Given the severely traditional no music Youngs like feel of the pub when I knew it under the Galloghys in 79/80 it is highly unlikely that there was a music club called Bradys there in 1967. Remember too that  there was no seperate function room at The Railway -  the large area where bands played when it was Bradys was the main lounge bar with no stage.
> 
> John and Anne aren’t listed in 1981 so I think they or whoever owned it sold it either after the first riots or perhaps because of the boycott of the pub by Brixtons politicos after the Galloghys banned 2 lesbians who refused to stop snogging in the lounge bar !
> ...


 
good work mate 

and now the Minet Library is under threat of closing


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## newbie (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> I have a fear of history overplaying the role and exaggerating the predicament of those of who you speak newbie. Intellectuals have a habit of bigging themselves up when they write the history books.


that point might be better made about somewhere like the Notting Hill of the 70s, now remembered for the hippies and then punk but which, like Brixton at the time, had reggae everywhere and a blues in most streets most weeks (or so it seemed).  



> Sorry for repeating myself but those times were really all about the crap that the black community went through and I dont care what anyone says Brixton was a shocking place to listen to rock music until The Fridge got into full gear in the late 80s



you make it sound as though from the late 80s onwards the 'black community' (whatever that means) didn't go through crap, or maybe it just wasn't all about them anymore because there was rock music to listen to.


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## past caring (Apr 19, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Certainly the live gig featured in the film Rude Boy (78/79) cant have been filmed at The Railway and I cant see any other scenes in the film that look like they're filmed in one of the bars.



Not true. Much of the live footage in the film was staged - i.e. it wasn't of "real" gigs but of concerts that would never have taken place were it not for the film. I'm not saying it was shot at the Railway, but what you've dug up doesn't rule it out by any means.


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## lordnoise (Apr 20, 2011)

past caring said:


> Not true. Much of the live footage in the film was staged - i.e. it wasn't of "real" gigs but of concerts that would never have taken place were it not for the film. I'm not saying it was shot at the Railway, but what you've dug up doesn't rule it out by any means.



I'm sorry past caring but theres no way any of the concerts in Rude Boy were staged at The Railway Hotel when it was filmed in 1978/79. There wasnt a space then that either looked like the ones in the film or that was used for music. The large area later used for music when it became Bradys was the main drinking area of The Railway Hotel. There is a slight chance that some other conversational scenes were filmed there but when I last saw the film it certainly didnt look like it. (Oh Lord with my dodgey memory I'm going to have to watch it through again arent I ?) Because I worked there (briefly) and drank there (not so briefly) I've a good knowledge of what all 3 bars looked like back then. One of The Clashes later line ups may have played there from the mid 80s when it became known as Bradys but sadly and strangely over the years that this has been claimed no one has come up with a year let alone date.

Hendrix at The Railway News

I went to the British Library Newspaper archive in Colindale yesterday (another great facility threatened with closure) to see if I could dig up any info on the Bradys Club mentioned in the Hendrix gig guide (link posted above). According to the guide he played Bradys Club London on Sunday 19th February 1967 after having played at York Uni the night before (and before playing in Bath the following Monday). All the dates on the list check out against those printed in Melody Maker except one - you guessed it - Bradys Club isnt mentioned and all the venues he played on that tour (including Brixtons Ram Jam Club on Sat 4th) are sizeable mainstream venues I recognise except Bradys Club.
I looked at the gig listings in MM during 66 and 67 but couldnt find any mention of a Bradys Club as a venue anywhere in London. The Swan in Stockwells there as a jazz venue and The Half Moons does folk on a Tuesday night but apart from the Ram Jam doing a mixture of black music and blues rock there are no Brixton music venues of any description listed. 
I checked the commercial directories for London in 1967 at Minet Rd previously for a Bradys Club but no joy. Bradys Club either didnt advertise in the MM (strange if it could attract a large enough audience to pay for Jimi even then) or it was a small improvised club attached to a pub (like The Railway) that didnt have a commercial entity of its own.
I'm going to contact Rich Dickinson whos fan site the gig list is on to see who put it together. I'm also going to try and find people who knew The Railway Hotel in the mid 60s to see if it had any music connections - any help with this would be much appreciated like wise with any suggestions of how and where to take my research further.


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## lordnoise (Apr 20, 2011)

editor said:


> The Fridge was in "full gear" way before the late 1980s, attracting the likes of King Kurt, the Eurythmics, Pet Shop Boys, Boy George, Sisters of Mercy, Frankie Goes To Hollywood, New Order and Marc Almond by 1983.



Great stuff if you were one of the 10 people who actually turned up to watch Annie. Yes there was rock music played in Brixton in the 70s and 80s but Brixtons very historic and important contribution to popular music during that time was Reggae. Reggae defined Brixton.
Rock was there and good and great at times but it was peripheral.

BTW I dont want to underplay the importance of 121 to those who lived there, worked there and who were helped there. Its importance to Gay people in Brixton and the wider movement is well documented - I'm just not sure they can be used as evidence of a thriving rock movement in Brixton at the time.


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> BTW I dont want to underplay the importance of 121 to those who lived there, worked there and who were helped there. Its importance to Gay people in Brixton and the wider movement is well documented - I'm just not sure they can be used as evidence of a thriving rock movement in Brixton at the time.


I've never used the phrase, "thriving rock movement," by the way - that's you disingenuous invention. I've just pointed out that you were incorrect to suggest that the Fridge "didn't get going" until the late 80s when it was already an established gig playing a wide variety of music before that. 

I know this because _I played there in the early eighties._


----------



## story (Apr 20, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Great stuff if you were one of the 10 people who actually turned up to watch Annie. Yes there was rock music played in Brixton in the 70s and 80s but *Brixtons very historic and important contribution to popular music during that time was Reggae. Reggae defined Brixton*.
> Rock was there and good and great at times but it was peripheral.
> 
> BTW I dont want to underplay the importance of 121 to those who lived there, worked there and who were helped there. Its importance to Gay people in Brixton and the wider movement is well documented - I'm just not sure they can be used as evidence of a thriving rock movement in Brixton at the time.


 
I don't think anyone is denying this, lordnoise; but you seem to be adamantly denying - in the face of first hand experience - the importance and relevance of guitar music in and around Brixton at the time.

It was secondary, and perhaps less obvious than other forms of music, but it was there, and it was important. Or at least it was important to those of us who were there.


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## lordnoise (Apr 20, 2011)

editor said:


> I've never used the phrase, "thriving rock movement," by the way - that's you disingenuous invention. I've just pointed out that you were incorrect to suggest that the Fridge "didn't get going" until the late 80s when it was already an established gig playing a wide variety of music before that.
> 
> I know this because _I played there in the early eighties._



I didnt  say you used the word thriving you actually used the word big.

The Fridge started out medium sized venue in the early 80s and got smaller before it found its current home in the failed Ace rock venue around 1984? It took many years before it was attracting the huge 7 day a week crowds it does now - maybe a marker of when rock came to have an importance in Brixton might be when The Atlantic (big reggae sound system pub) became the Dogstar.


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## lordnoise (Apr 20, 2011)

Looks like your Jimi gig list contains a typo ed.

http://www.classicrockforums.com/forum/f4/where-jimi-hendrix-feb-19th-1967-a-14874/


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Looks like your Jimi gig list contains a typo ed.
> 
> http://www.classicrockforums.com/forum/f4/where-jimi-hendrix-feb-19th-1967-a-14874/


Um, it's not "my" gig list. Of course, none of this helps us find out if Hendrix ever jammed at the Railway or not.


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## story (Apr 20, 2011)

If it helps: There was a bloke who lived in Brixton who was connected to Hawkwind and several other bands (I think he put up some of the money for the first Glastonbury). He was pals with Jimi, was with him the night before he died.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 20, 2011)

Who's to say his appearance at The Railway wasn't a secret after-show gig and therefore wasn't publicised?


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## editor (Apr 20, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Who's to say his appearance at The Railway wasn't a secret after-show gig and therefore wasn't publicised?


Well, exactly. Pre-Internet/Twitter these things were always word of mouth and rarely recorded.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 20, 2011)

editor said:


> Well, exactly. Pre-Internet/Twitter these things were always word of mouth and rarely recorded.


 

I've done a search for Alabama 3 at George IV and there's not a lot out there and this was in the early 90s. 

I wonder if his Lordship's going to dispute their presence there


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## story (Apr 20, 2011)

Also, Jimi was notorious for just kinda leaping up and joining in / taking over. Must have driven people bonkers to have him do it.


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## editor (Apr 20, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've done a search for Alabama 3 at George IV and there's not a lot out there and this was in the early 90s.


I saw the Alabama 3 play at the Railway in the early 90s too. They were ace. Heck, even I gave a talk there once and I doubt if there's much of a record about that either.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 20, 2011)

editor said:


> I saw the Alabama 3 play at the Railway in the early 90s too. They were ace. Heck, even I gave a talk there once and I doubt if there's much of a record about that either.


 
I remember going there in the early 80s as well with a load of Irish friends (as in I remember going there but don't remember much else!)

Top Cats used to play at the George as well


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## story (Apr 20, 2011)

I once got thrown out of an Alabama 3 gig there. Doubt there's a record of that either.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 20, 2011)

story said:


> I once got thrown out of an Alabama 3 gig there. Doubt there's a record of that either.


 
How the fuck do you get thrown out of a pub like George IV or The Railway?  What on earth were you up to?  

and where were you thrown out of - George IV or Railway?


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## story (Apr 20, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> How the fuck do you get thrown out of a pub like George IV or The Railway?  What on earth were you up to?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 20, 2011)

story said:


>


 
That's *not* an answer


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## story (Apr 20, 2011)

It was the Railway. Maybe even the gig editor was at...

You've had my answer, Minnie_the_Minx, and you'll just have to be content with what you've been given.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 20, 2011)

story said:


> It was the Railway. Maybe even the gig editor was at...
> 
> You've had my answer, Minnie_the_Minx, and you'll just have to be content with what you've been given.


 
and I'm still in shock  

Will never be able to look at you in the same light again, and if I ever meet you in the street, I shall cross the road (well, I would if I knew what you looked like....)


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## linerider (Apr 20, 2011)

story said:


> I once got thrown out of an Alabama 3 gig there. Doubt there's a record of that either.



I would probably have been on the door,so you must have been really,really out of order.


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## lordnoise (Apr 21, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've done a search for Alabama 3 at George IV and there's not a lot out there and this was in the early 90s.
> 
> I wonder if his Lordship's going to dispute their presence there



I say "Free the Alabama Three" ...


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## lordnoise (Apr 21, 2011)

Feb 19th 1967. A flat somewhere in Chelsea.

Its late morning and Jimi Hendrix lies on an unmade bed wearing only a pink ruffled shirt. Next to him a naked hippy chick paints her toe nails with psychedelic nail varnish. Jimis in the middle of a sell out tour of the UK. He IS the hottest property in town – London lies at his feet.

Hippie Chick :  What are we doing after the gig at the Blarney tonight ? Annabels ? The UFO ? Maybe  Mick and Keiths jam session at                    
                    Johns pad ? – Oh and don’t forget Lady Phillipas reefer madness party (laughs) you know how bonkers she is !

           Jimi:   (admiring the full page photo of himself on the front of that weeks Melody Maker)
                    Hell no sweetie.  I thought we’d mosey on down to The Railway Hotel in Brixton and jam the night away with my hip Irish              
                    friends. Man the Guiness is way too coool down there and Paddys the meanest spoons player I’ve ever heard. 

Hippie Chick :  Groovy plan baby but theres one slight problem ...

           Jimi : (suddenly concerned) Whats that baby ?

Hippie Chick : Its Sunday 1967. Pubs shut at 10 – last orders 9.50.

           Jimi : (shocked) And the wind cried Mary !


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## editor (Apr 21, 2011)

Yeah! Because lock-ins never happened in Brixton. No sir!


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## lordnoise (Apr 21, 2011)

Lock ins. What would you do if you wanted to offer your regulars a late pint in those much more rigid times ?

a) Lock the door, close the curtains, turn the juke box of and get serving 

or

b) Lock the door, close the curtains, turn the juke box off and invite your local prog rock band in ...


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## editor (Apr 21, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Lock ins. What would you do if you wanted to offer your regulars a late pint in those much more rigid times ?
> 
> a) Lock the door, close the curtains, turn the juke box of and get serving
> 
> ...


What? I've been to loads of lock-ins where there's been musicians playing. 

In fact, there was one at *a popular Brixton venue*  only last week, and I can remember many, many drunken nights at the Railway where people were playing fiddles, acoustic guitars, drums - the lot. Unless there's noise complaints or the landlord is spotted selling beer after hours, pubs can do what they like after they've closed to the public.


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## lordnoise (Apr 21, 2011)

Feb 1967. The side entrance of The Railway Hotel, Brixton.  

Its late and theres a real pea souper swirling around a figure hammering  on the double doors of the pub. PC Dixon cape and all is trying to make himself heard above the noise coming from inside. The pea in his whistle oscillates in time to the beat of the music.

Inside Jimmy Hendrix and The Experience are rocking their way through Jimis version of Paddy McGintys Goat. The Guiness is flowing and the locals are going mad. Hippie Chick is on a table dancing wildly wearing little more than an Emerald Green PVC mini skirt.
Jimi finishes the song and Sean the landlord hearing the hammering opens the door a crack to see who it is.

PC Dixon: (half whispering)  Sean  – sorry to bother you mate but can you ask Jimmy to adjust his amp only Mrs McGurgle above the pie and mash shop is complaining of Purple Haze through her hearing aid again and we’ve a 6 car raid going on at a shebeen in Railton Rd and - as great as it is - all were getting over these new fangled radios is Jimmys set.

      Sean:  No bother at all officer – well you not come in for a quick one ? Jimis not done ‘Wild Thing’ yet.

PC Dixon:  No thanks Sean I’d better get down to Railton and give the boys a hand. (Turns to leave but turns back suddenly) Oh and before I forget. Could you ask Jimi to play ‘Hey Joe’ again before he fixes his amp only The Inspector was away from his radio beating a Rude Boy up in the cells and missed it.

      Sean :  No problem - I’ll have a word ... (closes the door gently).

Inside Val Doonican has joined Jimi on stage for a version of 'Walk Tall'. Its going to be a long night.


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## story (Apr 21, 2011)

That's it exactly! So you were there after all, lordnoise!


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## lordnoise (Apr 21, 2011)

Doh !


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## story (Apr 21, 2011)

(Has everyone had a sense of humour bypass or something?)


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## lordnoise (Apr 21, 2011)

I want to apologise for the terrible Irish stereotyping above but want it known that some of my best friends are Irish.


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## story (Apr 21, 2011)

And what about the copper stereotype then, eh? Eh?!


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## story (Apr 21, 2011)

And the Jimi Hendrix stereotype too, come to that.


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## lordnoise (Apr 21, 2011)

editor said:


> What? I've been to loads of lock-ins where there's been musicians playing.
> 
> In fact, there was one at *a popular Brixton venue*  only last week, and I can remember many, many drunken nights at the Railway where people were playing fiddles, acoustic guitars, drums - the lot. Unless there's noise complaints or the landlord is spotted selling beer after hours, pubs can do what they like after they've closed to the public.




Thats now ! Back then before they liberalised the licencing laws lock-ins and drinking after time was fairly rare. All it took was few complaints from nosey neighbours/jealous rival publicans and if you didnt listen to the warnings plod gave you the magistrates would have your licence ! Even story might back me up on that one !


----------



## editor (Apr 21, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> Thats now ! Back then before they liberalised the licencing laws lock-ins and drinking after time was fairly rare


I've been going to lock ins since the 70s.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 21, 2011)

Oh, was reminded that the owners of both The Russell and The Railway was Madigans.  The minute the person mentioned the name, I remembered


----------



## oryx (Apr 21, 2011)

editor said:


> I've been going to lock ins since the 70s.


 
I wouldn't say they were rare either. I seem to remember Sunday licensing laws, whereby one couldn't drink between lunchtime and evening, were relaxed in the mid-90s. So-called '24-hour drinking' was 2005.

I used to live near Clapham Old Town and if the landlord knew you were safe, you were OK for massive after-hours beer sessions in a couple of pubs in walking distance from my house. This was mid-80s. 

I remember my flatmate and her boyfriend having to more or less beg to be let out of The Bull's Head on Rectory Grove, pissed and exhausted, at about 3am.  This was about 1986. (The pub has changed hands several times so I hope I'm not incriminating anyone........).


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 21, 2011)

I remember lock-ins in the George IV 'til the very early hours of the morning

Now, I'm so used to drinking in a late pub, I'd be a bit shocked at being chucked out of one at 11.00pm


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## story (Apr 21, 2011)

linerider said:


> I would probably have been on the door,so you must have been really,really out of order.




There's two sides to every story....




lordnoise said:


> Thats now ! Back then before they liberalised the licencing laws lock-ins and drinking after time was fairly rare. All it took was few complaints from nosey neighbours/jealous rival publicans and if you didnt listen to the warnings plod gave you the magistrates would have your licence ! Even story might back me up on that one !


 

Well certainly they were few and far between back then, but if you knew the right places drinking after hours was easy. So long as you were in with the guv'nor and didn't cause any trouble. And didn't brag about it to all and sundry. And plenty of coppers knew about it, course they did.

The Springfield Tavern had a good lock in. And that pub opposite John Ruskin Street, they did a great lock in.


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 22, 2011)

story said:


> There's two sides to every story....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Few and far betweens" my memory of the situation too. One of the rituals involved was to turn the juke box off unless you were in some sort of cellar situation and had bunged the police as (allegedly) happened in Soho.


----------



## lordnoise (Apr 22, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh, was reminded that the owners of both The Russell and The Railway was Madigans.  The minute the person mentioned the name, I remembered


 
That names ringing bells with me. Madigans were a huge bailiffs firm around that time I wonder if theres a connection. The other name running around my brain is Henelley Inns or Taverns although they may have been the owners of The Canning before Wychwood. If I remember correctly the same company who took over from the Galloghys at the Railway also owned the little corner pub kind of opposite Ye Olde White Horse Inn (Jamm). Is that pub still going ?
I'd order up the historic deeds of the Railway from the land registry site only its 30 something quid.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 22, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> That names ringing bells with me. Madigans were a huge bailiffs firm around that time I wonder if theres a connection. The other name running around my brain is Henelley Inns or Taverns although they may have been the owners of The Canning before Wychwood. If I remember correctly the same company who took over from the Galloghys at the Railway also owned the little corner pub kind of opposite Ye Olde White Horse Inn (Jamm). Is that pub still going ?
> I'd order up the historic deeds of the Railway from the land registry site only its 30 something quid.


 
Madigans *were * bailiffs but I don't know if they were connected to the pub owners.  Hennellys owned the George Canning.  I definitely remember that.  Madigans I recognise from the George IV as well when Des Christie had the pub

Not sure about the pub opposite the Old White Horse but it was a right dive.  I drank in there occasionally with a friend whose locals were both the Old White Horse and that one.  Can't remember the name.  Was it something royal sounding?  Crown and Anchor?  Crown and Cushion?


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## Gramsci (Apr 22, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Everyone was too skint in the 70s and 80s to take photos


 
I do have some photos but they are not on computer file. There definitely was a music scene connected with the mainly white squatters/ Short life of the time as Newbie says in earlier post.


----------



## Giles (Apr 23, 2011)

oryx said:


> I wouldn't say they were rare either. I seem to remember Sunday licensing laws, whereby one couldn't drink between lunchtime and evening, were relaxed in the mid-90s. So-called '24-hour drinking' was 2005.
> 
> I used to live near Clapham Old Town and if the landlord knew you were safe, you were OK for massive after-hours beer sessions in a couple of pubs in walking distance from my house. This was mid-80s.
> 
> I remember my flatmate and her boyfriend having to more or less beg to be let out of The Bull's Head on Rectory Grove, pissed and exhausted, at about 3am.  This was about 1986. (The pub has changed hands several times so I hope I'm not incriminating anyone........).


 
I remember the Sunday afternoon issue, and ending up in some basement bar off Oxford Street, which was then heavilty patronised by those carrying on from "The Church". So, we all had to pay a couple of quid to go into this bar, and as you went in and paid your entrance fee, they'd hand you a paper plate with a dried up spring roll or something, the point of which wasn't to actually eat, it was an excuse to claim that we were all actually "diners" and therefore it was legal for them to serve us all afternoon.
, with "drinks with our meal"!

On another note, I remember George IV being literally open round the clock from some point on thursday to sunday night. with a surprising number of "regulars" who seemed to be there all weekend....

Giles..


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 23, 2011)

Giles said:


> On another note, I remember George IV being literally open round the clock from some point on thursday to sunday night. with a surprising number of "regulars" who seemed to be there all weekend....
> 
> Giles..





Was that when Des Christie had it?


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## TopCat (Apr 23, 2011)

The mind boggles as to the crime that would get you kicked out of the Railway.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2011)

TopCat said:


> The mind boggles as to the crime that would get you kicked out of the Railway.


 
smacking the landlord


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## TopCat (Apr 23, 2011)

It would have to be a proper clump though...


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## Giles (Apr 23, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Was that when Des Christie had it?


 
Don't know. However, preserved for posterity http://www.amherst.co.uk/zFINALMinutes210406.pdf is the record of the council's licencing meeting around the time G4 got closed down.

Highlights include the bit on page 3 where the police, presumably having carried out extensive undercover operations, comment:

"On some occasions when promotional events were being held at the venue, the premises were open continuously from Thursday through to Sunday in contravention of the conditions of the current license. The same patrons were seen at the venue for the duration of the extended promotional events and _it was suspected that patrons were taking illegal substances to keep them awake for this length of time._

They must have brought in Sherlock Holmes or some other top detective to figure that one out!

And a bit later, the woman who was then running the place must surely have struggled to keep a straight face when commenting:

_Ms Stone advised that she was managed the premises from Thursday – Sunday and that she catered for the 18 - 35 age group. She was surprised to learn of the sale/use of illegal substances on the premises as this had never been brought to her attention and the police had not approached her regarding any concerns._

Giles..


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 23, 2011)

Giles said:


> Don't know. However, preserved for posterity http://www.amherst.co.uk/zFINALMinutes210406.pdf is the record of the council's licencing meeting around the time G4 got closed down.
> 
> Highlights include the bit on page 3 where the police, presumably having carried out extensive undercover operations, comment:
> 
> ...


 
No idea who that is then, as after Des, you had two other Irish guys (Tony and Paul), then you had another Irish guy (who ended up in the Sultan, but can't remember his name - Nigel possibly?)  Oh, just thought, there was another couple, think they were Irish as well but can't remember their names (Frank was the husband I think).  They had a barstaff with them as well who got married to a Thai girl.


eta:  Oh, just seen the date - 2006.  All those names above were well before that.

2006 I imagine, is when they used to have those ravey nights and you'd walk past on a Saturday/Sunday morning to see people out of their heads having partied all night


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 23, 2011)

Giles said:


> Don't know. However, preserved for posterity http://www.amherst.co.uk/zFINALMinutes210406.pdf is the record of the council's licencing meeting around the time G4 got closed down.
> 
> Highlights include the bit on page 3 where the police, presumably having carried out extensive undercover operations, comment:
> 
> ...



are they sure it was even the George IV?  They're referring to Water Works Lane.  Idiots!  Maybe it's a new road only the council know about?


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## lordnoise (Apr 26, 2011)

RIP Brixton lass Poly Styrene of X-Ray Spex a Brixton born Punk band. Sad news.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 26, 2011)

lordnoise said:


> RIP Brixton lass Poly Styrene of X-Ray Spex a Brixton born Punk band. Sad news.


 
There's a separate thread about it


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## Rushy (May 10, 2011)

I spotted Andrew Czezowski and Susan Carrington coming out of Bradys this morning.


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## Aquamarine (Jun 3, 2011)

For info. email received from the council. It is currently being marketed on behalf of the Council by Lambert Smith Hampton. Any future use outside its current planning consent would require an application for change of use as would any significant alterations to the structure and external areas. There would be opportunity for public comment through the planning process.


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## Neil-NewX (Jun 5, 2011)

Just posted an article about Twisted at Brady's (country/techno night), including some old flyers:

http://history-is-made-at-night.blogspot.com/2011/06/twisted.html


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## editor (Jun 5, 2011)

Neil-NewX said:


> Just posted an article about Twisted at Brady's (country/techno night), including some old flyers:
> 
> http://history-is-made-at-night.blogspot.com/2011/06/twisted.html


Great piece!

I can see Tim Windmill all over the piece, but is Hack-saw the Hacker from Morton Valence?


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## twistedAM (Jun 6, 2011)

editor said:


> Great piece!
> 
> I can see Tim Windmill all over the piece, but is Hack-saw the Hacker from Morton Valence?



It was indeed; he was our resident act and that was Johnny from band of Holy Joy on the decks. *Thanks so much for posting that Neil New-X.*

We had so much fun doing that. Linerider of this parish was our greeter! The best fun was almost thinking up stupid names like PharmaCountry, the Milliion Gram Sessions and renaming the venue Bradys Saloon.


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## linerider (Jun 15, 2011)

twistedAM said:


> It was indeed; he was our resident act and that was Johnny from band of Holy Joy on the decks. *Thanks so much for posting that Neil New-X.*
> 
> We had so much fun doing that. Linerider of this parish was our greeter! The best fun was almost thinking up stupid names like PharmaCountry, the Milliion Gram Sessions and renaming the venue Bradys Saloon.


I was fun wasn't it. 
but i was pissed most of the time so what would i know


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## Malicha Davis (Sep 30, 2011)

Hello im a student currently doing a project on the redevelopment of the railway hotel brady's. I am at a loss at finding information about it from when it was renamed to Brady's. ANY INFORMATION WOULD BE HELPFUL!
thank you


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## editor (Sep 30, 2011)

Malicha Davis said:


> Hello im a student currently doing a project on the redevelopment of the railway hotel brady's. I am at a loss at finding information about it from when it was renamed to Brady's. ANY INFORMATION WOULD BE HELPFUL!
> thank you


There was another place called Brady's on Brixton Road, so it's possible that the landlord took the name with him.


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## Malicha Davis (Sep 30, 2011)

editor said:


> There was another place called Brady's on Brixton Road, so it's possible that the landlord took the name with him.


thank you, i will look into it


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## editor (Nov 17, 2011)

It's all over. The campaigning ABCBrixton site has also vanished off the web, and the domain space riddled with viruses.








http://www.urban75.org/blog/so-its-goodbye-to-bradys-one-of-brixtons-legendary-boozers/


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 17, 2011)

Sad news.  Now what fine food eaterie will end up there I wonder


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## editor (Nov 17, 2011)

Pizza Express ahoy!


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## TruXta (Nov 17, 2011)

Is that a metaphorical statement Ed, or a literal one?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Pizza Express ahoy!



I was thinking that


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## Crispy (Nov 17, 2011)

Doesn't have to be a restaurant. The use class is A3 - Food and Drink, so a pub is still possible.


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## isvicthere? (Nov 17, 2011)

Maybe it'll become an "edgy" eaterie where "creatives" can congregate and "network"...


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## twistedAM (Nov 17, 2011)

editor said:


> Pizza Express ahoy!



Live "jazz"


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## Crispy (Nov 17, 2011)

isvicthere? said:


> Maybe it'll become an "edgy" eaterie where "creatives" can congregate and "network"...


Can't they already do that in Brixton Village?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 17, 2011)

I reckon a cafe/restaurant with adjoining baker/deli would go down a storm

Here's a little place in Killaloe, Ireland which used to have tiny premises, and has now moved into a pub as an eaterie/cafe serving alcohol and have also nabbed the premises next door for a bakery.  Everywhere in Killaloe is empty, except this place which is packed.  Unfortunately, I think it's probably tourists and yuppies as £15 for a burger is a bit outrageous

http://www.facebook.com/WoodenSpoonKillaloe?sk=info


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## editor (Nov 17, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Doesn't have to be a restaurant. The use class is A3 - Food and Drink, so a pub is still possible.


Pubs tend to be closing more than opening these days.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 17, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Can't they already do that in Brixton Village?



Ah, but it's nearer and it means all those tourists don't have to venture down Coldharbour Lane and bump into dubious looking characters like Editor


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## Crispy (Nov 17, 2011)

I would be very interested to know exactly how the ABC plans fell through. It was ll looking quite promising at one point, with money on the way etc.


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## editor (Nov 17, 2011)

Crispy said:


> I would be very interested to know exactly how the ABC plans fell through. It was ll looking quite promising at one point, with money on the way etc.


And a visit from Prince Charles only last year.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 17, 2011)

Sad news.

£85 grand a year rent. So you'd need to take £1635 per week just to pay the rent - prob £2.5k per week to break even. Is that possible for a boozer?

I'd give up my job tomorrow to run a pub in that location but I don't have 50 grand to spend on refurbishing the place


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 17, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Sad news.
> 
> £85 grand a year rent. *So you'd need to take £1635 per week just to pay the rent - prob £2.5k per week to break even.* Is that possible for a boozer?



FFS


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 17, 2011)

Only the downstairs and basement are up for rent. Which means the top two/three floors must be getting converted into flats. Which means it is unlikely that a pub or music venue would be able to trade there.

Massive  and


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## editor (Nov 17, 2011)

The upstairs rooms rattle like billy-o when a train goes by.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 17, 2011)

editor said:


> The upstairs rooms rattle like billy-o when a train goes by.


"Well connected to local transport links. £1500 per month."


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## Rushy (Nov 17, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Only the downstairs and basement are up for rent. Which means the top two/three floors must be getting converted into flats. Which means it is unlikely that a pub or music venue would be able to trade there.
> 
> Massive  and



The uppers are to let separately, as offices.

You'd need way more than 50k to get the ground and basement up and running.

When they were selling the council was looking to proposals for purchase which "lead to the regeneration of Brady's and provide A3 and community use". The agents told me that this would be made conditional through planning restrictions. I would be interested to hear how this condition has been met - particularly since it put a lot of bidders off and will have substantially reduced the sale price.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 17, 2011)

Cheers rushy, interesting.


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## isvicthere? (Nov 18, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Can't they already do that in Brixton Village?



Oh yeah.


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## Gramsci (Nov 18, 2011)

editor said:


> And a visit from Prince Charles only last year.



I have heard that the Princes Trust who put a lot of effort into the project are really pissed off that the Council has flogged it off.


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## Crispy (Nov 19, 2011)

Do we know who the new owner is btw?


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## TruXta (Nov 19, 2011)

It's me.


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## Gramsci (Nov 20, 2011)

Rushy said:


> The uppers are to let separately, as offices.
> 
> You'd need way more than 50k to get the ground and basement up and running.
> 
> When they were selling the council was looking to proposals for purchase which "lead to the regeneration of Brady's and provide A3 and community use". The agents told me that this would be made conditional through planning restrictions. I would be interested to hear how this condition has been met - particularly since it put a lot of bidders off and will have substantially reduced the sale price.



The trouble with this is that it still is to be argued through planning. I can see whoever has bought it watering down any commitment to community use eventually. Kind of thing developers are good at. Arguing this would make it commercially unviable. Unless the sale had some kind of commitments already written into it. Which Im not sure is possible.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 21, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Do we know who the new owner is btw?


Jenkins Law - property developers - http://www.jenkinslaw.co.uk/property.php

In fact, their PDF detailing the Brady's property has a really neat and useful map showing all the businesses in the elecric lane/avenue market areas.


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## Rushy (Nov 21, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Jenkins Law - property developers - http://www.jenkinslaw.co.uk/property.php


They're normally surveyors and consultants. What makes you think they purchased it?


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 21, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> The trouble with this is that it still is to be argued through planning. I can see whoever has bought it watering down any commitment to community use eventually. Kind of thing developers are good at. Arguing this would make it commercially unviable. Unless the sale had some kind of commitments already written into it. Which Im not sure is possible.


Yep, we've seen things like "community use" watered down so many times in the planning process. Properties often seem to get left empty/unused for ages until the planning committee is persuaded to think "ah fuck it, we might as well just get someone in to use the place..."

I imagine a chain like Pizza Express or similar could clean up/smarten up that end of Electric Lane, stick some tables & chairs on the pavement and claim that is "community use"....


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 21, 2011)

Rushy said:


> They're normally surveyors and consultants. What makes you think they purchased it?


It was in the Ed's report on his blog.....

...but yes you're right, they could just be acting as agents.


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## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Yep, we've seen things like "community use" watered down so many times in the planning process. Properties often seem to get left empty/unused for ages until the planning committee is persuaded to think "ah fuck it, we might as well just get someone in to use the place..."
> 
> I imagine a chain like Pizza Express or similar could clean up/smarten up that end of Electric Lane, stick some tables & chairs on the pavement and claim that is "community use"....


Too much stink from the butchers.


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## Roly (Nov 26, 2011)

Yeah Pizza "f*cking" Express. and how about a multi story starbuck while they're at it....... :,( The council are the thickest people around in our universe

Brady's could be (could have been) an incredible public feature for Brixton, and without a doubt there are people who would have taken up the challenge and worked for little or nothing to turn it into a real public resource. I for one would have done, but have been told that it is up for auction shortly, or allready.


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## Roly (Nov 26, 2011)

Crispy said:


> I would be very interested to know exactly how the ABC plans fell through. It was ll looking quite promising at one point, with money on the way etc.



Crispy.... from what I can tell, ABC seem as like a bunch of con artists, who I believe were in it only to get free public money for themselves and their mates.

I saw their plans and they were plain rubbish, incoherent and made a very poor use of the space.


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## twistedAM (Nov 26, 2011)

Roly said:


> Crispy.... from what I can tell, ABC seem as like a bunch of con artists, who I believe were in it only to get free public money for themselves and their mates.
> 
> I saw their plans and they were plain rubbish, incoherent and made a very poor use of the space.



Any more info?

Wasn't there a guy from some private members club uptown involved in this?


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## Roly (Nov 30, 2011)

Here are some quotes from their website...

Its aim is to bring together community groups and professional bodies and initiate community-led regeneration projects...
...The _Railway Hotel Regeneration Project_ is a community-led initiative... 


I have never heard of anyone who has been consulted by them from the comunity.

http://www.abcbrixton.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=96

This is the web - link that will take you to their "Railway Hotel" project (AKA Braidy's)

The last news up-date on the website is for 25th November last year...

I don't understand how they got funding for all the blue sky ideas listed without a definite ability to use the site.

http://www.abcbrixton.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=1&id=1&Itemid=92

A Link to their news page

http://www.railwayhotel.org/  --- photos of the interior

direct link to their contact page ===> http://www.abcbrixton.org/index.php?option=com_contact&Itemid=43

Interestingly there a no names of anyone that runs ABC Brixton that I can find on their website... even on the contact page...
That to me , always smells...

My main problem is that the 2007 proposal shows them cutting up the space into too many different small sized and therefore useless spaces. The concept offered appears to be un-cohesive and appears as somewhere which would end up like many public spaces we all have probably experienced... pokey, tacky and not the greatest pleasure to visit. With too many different things poked together into various random spaces that give a sense of randomness that gives you the vague sad feeling that such a place needs to be changed one day, when they could have got it right in the first place.


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## Roly (Nov 30, 2011)

One further comment...

I just noticed that all of their diagrams in the 2007 proposal document appear proportionally incorrect. Which means they are engaging in a project all about use of space, with no ability whatsoever to conceptualize the very space the intend to use. This is a severe fault. If it is true they have lost the project, it is no surprise. What a shame.


p.s. Under the Governance section of the 2007 proposal, they appoint themselves as in charge, and then from that position appoint themselves as development agent, thereby putting themselves in the position of choosing all building contractors and consultants... and somehow... the "not-for profit" operator would have to hand their profits (i thought they were not for profit) to ABC who also would be by that point the Charitable trust that own the freehold. (but maybe I am misreading this document).


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## editor (Apr 18, 2012)

Place is still standing empty 







http://www.urban75.org/blog/brixton...clock-tower-atlantic-road-brixton-london-sw9/


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## colacubes (May 2, 2012)

Posted on Brixton chitter chatter as well but, we've had 2 planning apps through the door this evening re Bradys.  I haven't had a chance yet to look at the planning docs on Lambeth's website, but in short they are:

1.  Ref 11/04500/FUL
Conversion of the existing building into a ground floor and basement commercial unit and seven self contained flats on the upper floors, creation of waster and cycle storage, replacement and amendments to fenestration, alteration to the external elecational treatment and new entrances.

2. Ref 12/00714/ADV
Display of one externally illuminated flat aluminium letters to the cafe front elevation and one externally illuminated built up acrylic letters to shop front.

Now these applications are in two separate names.  We only opened the first one initially as we assumed it was just two copies of the same one, and immediately sighed and said it's going to be Tescos.  But reading the second one it seems like a cafe or bar maybe?  We'll look into it more but worth urbs with an interest looking it up.  I have to say I'm surprised re the residential cos of the closeness to the railway.  We're 50m further away from it and if a heavy goods train goes over our flat shakes, so I dread to imagine what it'll be like that close 

Deadline for application 1 is 17 May and for 2 is 18 May.


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## editor (May 2, 2012)

I've been upstairs in Bradys when a train has gone by and the place rattles like fuck - as in plates falling off shelves vibrations.


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## colacubes (May 2, 2012)

editor said:


> I've been upstairs in Bradys when a train has gone by and the place rattles like fuck - as in plates falling off shelves vibrations.


 
I always assumed for that reason if it became a 'mixed use' place it would be commercial downstairs, and office space upstairs.  It seems like absolute madness for it to be residential though. When goods trains go past it genuinely feels like a minor earthquake in our place (and I've experienced a proper earthquake so know what it feels like).  Fortunately that's only a couple of times a week for us so no biggie.  But if you get affected by the mainline trains as well that would be about 8 times an hour during the day.  

Also, reading the docs again we wonder whether it might be part shop/part cafe downstairs.  I'll have a bit more of a look over the weekend when I have some time.


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## ska invita (May 3, 2012)




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## teuchter (May 3, 2012)

My flat is about 10m from the railway line and shakes too with some freight trains, with things visibly moving but I survive.

I would have thought noise from the market would be much more of an issue to people worried about disturbance in that location.


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## editor (May 3, 2012)

Difference is that the railway runs straight through the building. It really is a monster rattle.


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## colacubes (May 3, 2012)

teuchter said:


> My flat is about 10m from the railway line and shakes too with some freight trains, with things visibly moving but I survive.
> 
> I would have thought noise from the market would be much more of an issue to people worried about disturbance in that location.


 
Market noise is really not a problem if you've got double glazing


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## Brixton Hatter (Jul 11, 2012)

It looks like both the upper floor offices and ground floor shop unit have been rented out, going by the "Let By" signs which have appeared on the side of the building in the past day or two.

Anyone heard anything about the prospective tenants?


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## colacubes (Jul 11, 2012)

Good reminder   We got a letter through the door the other day that the planning app has been withdrawn.  So who knows what that means now


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## teuchter (Jul 11, 2012)

I noticed those signs the other day too.


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## Brixton Hatter (Jul 11, 2012)

nipsla said:


> Good reminder  We got a letter through the door the other day that the planning app has been withdrawn. So who knows what that means now


Hmm, interesting. This was the original application put in in Dec 2011 and confirmed by the council in March 2012:



> 11/04500/FUL | Conversion of the existing building into a ground floor and basement commercial unit and seven self contained flats on the upper floors, creation of waste and cycle storage, replacement and amendments to fenestration, alteration to the external elevational treatment and new entrances. A proposal for the conversion of an existing building named The Bradys located at No. 20 Atlantic Road in Brixton into a mixed development including a commercial unit at basement and ground floor levels, 7 No. residential units at the upper floors. The proposal comprises also of an extension to the rear of the site. | Railway Tavern Public House 20 Atlantic Road London SW9 8JA


 
There were also three related applications, one which was to subdivide the pub into a cafe (A3) and a retail unit (A1), one relating to external signage on the two new businesses, and one to change the use of the building from A4 (pub) to A3/A1. The latter one of these was refused by the planning committee back in March/April, which might have fcuked up the plans the owner/developer had.

The Brixton masterplan back in 2009 (?) stated that the pub should retain some sort of community use in its new guise. Hopefully that'll remain the case, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. The same masterplan also suggested that the back of the pub (currently a disused yard) might be used for some sort of public square and/or entrance to the back of the tube station to link up with the railway station. The plan which has just been withdrawn wanted to build into that area to create more floor space for the retail and upper floor flats.


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## Fenian (Jul 11, 2012)

nipsla said:


> Market noise is really not a problem if you've got double glazing


Ah some of us live in a building that is over 100 years old and in spitting distance of the rail tracks with no double glazing.  You just grow used to not hearing the trains, and wonder what the problem is whenever a person beside you wakes in the middle of the night like an earthquake's happened and croaks 'what the fuck was that'?!


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## Rushy (Jul 12, 2012)

The LSH sales particulars stated:
"Lambeth is looking for proposals that lead to the regeneration of Brady's and provide A3 and community use".
They also stated that they were seeking a "commitment to refurbish".

It would be interesting to know whether Lambeth secured these commitments. It is of particular interest if they did not, since the community use requirements would have put off a lot of interested parties and subsequently kept the price down.


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## leanderman (Jul 12, 2012)

So what is the latest then? Nothing?


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## Brixton Hatter (Jul 16, 2012)

leanderman said:


> So what is the latest then? Nothing?


The building has a new, unidentified, tenant. And the recent planning applications have been withdrawn. So it doesn't seem like anything is going to happen in the short term...


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 6, 2012)

Internal building work appears to have started. Banging and drilling could be heard from inside yesterday, but the doors were locked so I couldn't get in to have a look....


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## colacubes (Sep 6, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Internal building work appears to have started. Banging and drilling could be heard from inside yesterday, but the doors were locked so I couldn't get in to have a look....


 
There was sweeping out happening on Monday, but doesn't look like they've got very far tbh.


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## editor (Sep 6, 2012)

FFS: if they council had handed the building over to a community group ten years ago, they would have something to show for this disgracefully empty building and it would be in far better condition. The squatters made it a community asset too.


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## kr236rk (Sep 6, 2012)

was near Brady's about a week ago, it still looks like a complete wreck to me.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 25, 2012)

New planning notice posted today suggests the pub may remain as a pub....


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 25, 2012)

Proposed ground floor plan here:
http://planning-docs.lambeth.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00353881.pdf

(and here's the existing ground floor plan for comparison: http://planning-docs.lambeth.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00353889.pdf )

Part of the front of the pub looks to be used as a (very small) cafe. Existing doors to the pub would be retained on Electric Lane and on the corner of the building on Atlantic Road. Good news (on a quick glance at the documents) is that it looks like the architects have had to go back to the drawing board to retain some of the original features and character of the pub. Bad news is that residential is still proposed for the upper floors (although this particular application only deals with the ground floor and basement.)

Proposed front elevation: http://planning-docs.lambeth.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00353877.pdf

Proposed side elevation: http://planning-docs.lambeth.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00353875.pdf

Full application here for planning geeks like me: http://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/onli...ils.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=MCAJHVBO0GL00


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## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

This is fantastic news.


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## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

I've done a piece my blog - hope you don't mind me using your pic Mr Hatter!

http://www.urban75.org/blog/could-brixton-bradys-railway-hotel-be-coming-back-as-a-pub/


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> I've done a piece my blog - hope you don't mind me using your pic Mr Hatter!
> 
> http://www.urban75.org/blog/could-brixton-bradys-railway-hotel-be-coming-back-as-a-pub/


You're welcome


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 25, 2012)

It does worry me that residential is still proposed for the upper floors. Unless there's hefty soundproofing built in, I imagine a pub might have difficulty getting a licence if people were already living upstairs.


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## colacubes (Oct 25, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> It does worry me that residential is still proposed for the upper floors. Unless there's hefty soundproofing built in, I imagine a pub might have difficulty getting a licence if people were already living upstairs.


 
Well the other thing is that there are other residents already right on top of it.  I know that the story of Bradys is largely one of happy folklore of Brixton legend, but the people living at the back of it in Electric Mansions weren't enormous fans of it from what I've heard.  I'd suggest that they might not be hugely pleased about it coming back unless some rigorous noise and time restrictions were put in.


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## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> It does worry me that residential is still proposed for the upper floors. Unless there's hefty soundproofing built in, I imagine a pub might have difficulty getting a licence if people were already living upstairs.


The noise from the pub fades into insignificance compared to the almighty rumble when a train thunders overhead. I've been upstairs inside and there's a massive, crockery-moving racket when a train goes by.


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## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

nipsla said:


> I'd suggest that they might not be hugely pleased about it coming back unless some rigorous noise and time restrictions were put in.


I don't recall it being_ that_ loud to be honest. Maybe for the big nights when the back room was open, but most of the time it was just the front bar and that didn't have any kind of big sound system.


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## colacubes (Oct 25, 2012)

editor said:


> I don't recall it being_ that_ loud to be honest. Maybe for the big nights when the back room was open, but most of the time it was just the front bar and that didn't have any kind of big sound system.


 
I don't know for definite as it was before my time, but this is via people who've lived round there a lot longer than me.  40+ years in some cases.  And I think perception of loudness is all fine and good but if you're dealing with it every day it might be slightly different.  Just pointing out that it's not necessarily straightforward that it would be awarded a licence.


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## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

Most of the time, Bradys was only open in the front bar (facing Atlantic Road) and that's the furthest bit away from Electric Mansions.


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## leanderman (Oct 25, 2012)

will tidy up a run-down corner anyway


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## editor (Oct 25, 2012)

It'll probably be a hideous gastro pub that I'll never visit, but I'm still very happy to see it staying as a pub of sorts.


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## RaverDrew (Oct 26, 2012)

Probably a bit too small for a new improved Brixton Wetherspoon, but good news none the less.


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## twistedAM (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> I don't recall it being_ that_ loud to be honest. Maybe for the big nights when the back room was open, but most of the time it was just the front bar and that didn't have any kind of big sound system.


 
Noise is not always to do with live music; quite often complaints come from the pub customers and I'm sure the local wildlife that spilled out of Brady's in the wee hours caused many a racket. I might have even done it myself once or twice.


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## Rushy (Oct 26, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> It does worry me that residential is still proposed for the upper floors. Unless there's hefty soundproofing built in, I imagine a pub might have difficulty getting a licence if people were already living upstairs.


Where has that been proposed?


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

twistedAM said:


> Noise is not always to do with live music; quite often complaints come from the pub customers ...


What did the pub customers complain about?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 26, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Where has that been proposed?


If you look at the design statement (for the pub/cafe application) here, it says that there is a separate application for residential upstairs.


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## teuchter (Oct 26, 2012)

The current application includes some comments about the reasons the previous application was refused.

I enjoyed the bit at the end where they have a go at Lambeth planning for being so useless.


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## Rushy (Oct 26, 2012)

teuchter said:


> If you look at the design statement (for the pub/cafe application) here, it says that there is a separate application for residential upstairs.


Cheers. Having spent a good few hours in there earlier this year I can safely say I would not want to live in the arch / tower bit - it was very noisy. I suspect they will want to build some new floors over the rear dance hall.


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## Rushy (Oct 26, 2012)

teuchter said:


> The current application includes some comments about the reasons the previous application was refused.
> 
> I enjoyed the bit at the end where they have a go at Lambeth planning for being so useless.
> View attachment 24381


Totally fair comment. The planning department can be very uncommunicative and uncooperative (and this was way before the cuts). I have often had applications turned down because of mistakes by officers (e.g. claiming information is missing when it is not, miscalculating volumes, claiming a road is a public right of way when it is not, etc..) but it is impossible to point these out because they don't raise the matters with you until they have rejected the application. I once had an application turned down because my drawings were not to scale. It turned out that the planner had changed the print settings to 'fit to screen' rather than 'print to scale'. They asked me to resubmit!


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## Crispy (Oct 26, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Totally fair comment. The planning department can be very uncommunicative and uncooperative (and this was way before the cuts). I have often had applications turned down because of mistakes by officers (e.g. claiming information is missing when it is not, miscalculating volumes, claiming a road is a public right of way when it is not, etc..) but it is impossible to point these out because they don't raise the matters with you until they have rejected the application. I once had an application turned down because my drawings were not to scale. It turned out that the planner had changed the print settings to 'fit to screen' rather than 'print to scale'. They asked me to resubmit!


We always put a scale bar on planning application drawings for exactly this reason


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## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

teuchter said:


> The current application includes some comments about the reasons the previous application was refused.


That's really interesting.

I'm very much liking the sound of this application;


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## Rushy (Oct 26, 2012)

Crispy said:


> We always put a scale bar on planning application drawings for exactly this reason


Mine had a scale bar but it was printed out of scale!


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## Crispy (Oct 26, 2012)

And a note that says "Please print at 1:1, not fit to page" 
The text is pretty small tbh. I'm very glad we don't work in Lambeth.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 26, 2012)

Here's the planning application for the upstairs bit: http://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/onli...ils.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=LWI3DJBOHV000

The reference is 11/04500/FUL.

The flats are fucking tiny! http://planning-docs.lambeth.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00333810.pdf

Btw, this application was sent to Lambeth in December 2011, with a target date of May 2012   I can only assume the delay is due to planners wanting to look at the overall plans together, rather than them just being massively slow...

I can't imagine there ever being live music downstairs if there are flats above, especially with three bedrooms proposed directly above the main room of the pub. And the fact that the pub is described as a pub (A4) doesn't necessarily mean there will be a pub there - once the building works are done, a tenant still needs to be found. It would have to be a very quiet pub....


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## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I can't imagine there ever being live music downstairs if there are flats above, especially with three bedrooms proposed directly above the main room of the pub. And the fact that the pub is described as a pub (A4) doesn't necessarily mean there will be a pub there - once the building works are done, a tenant still needs to be found. It would have to be a very quiet pub....


The Brady's we all knew and loved has long gone and won't be coming back. It's a shame too because the back room there was fantastic. I would have loved to have put on an Offline night or two there.

I saw Alabama 3 and Vic perform there a few times. I only got to give a talk there after it was squatted.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 26, 2012)

I think I will comment on the applications supporting the retention of the pub but suggesting that decent soundproofing should be installed to at least make it possible that some sort of pub-type premises might be realistic and survive downstairs.


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## twistedAM (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> What did the pub customers complain about?


 
Ha. Ha. Sub-editing.
I'd more or less been on my laptop 14 hours solid by then. Hence, the grammatical mistake.


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## teuchter (Oct 26, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Totally fair comment. The planning department can be very uncommunicative and uncooperative (and this was way before the cuts). I have often had applications turned down because of mistakes by officers (e.g. claiming information is missing when it is not, miscalculating volumes, claiming a road is a public right of way when it is not, etc..) but it is impossible to point these out because they don't raise the matters with you until they have rejected the application. I once had an application turned down because my drawings were not to scale. It turned out that the planner had changed the print settings to 'fit to screen' rather than 'print to scale'. They asked me to resubmit!


 
This sort of thing happens with most planning departments in London in my experience. They will also come back with comments that could be resolved as minor amendments with literally days or hours before the decision deadline having sat on it for 3 months, making it effectively impossible to make the changes in time and forcing you to accept their kind offer of a voluntary withdrawal and resubmission, buying them a few more months time without having any effect on their target-meeting statistics.

And it's not them that then has to enjoy an angry client shouting down the telephone


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## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

The planning application refers to a 'historic print' showing how the building looked in Victorian times.
Has anyone seen this?

All I can find is an example of its intriguing 'Swiss Garden' from 1905.






> The Swiss Garden with palms, faux alpine scenery and seating, in a courtyard at the Railway Hotel in Atlantic Road, Brixton.
> http://landmark.lambeth.gov.uk/display_page.asp?section=landmark_fullsize&id=9111


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## teuchter (Oct 26, 2012)

editor said:


> The planning application refers to a 'historic print' showing how the building looked in Victorian times.
> Has anyone seen this?
> 
> All I can find is an example of its intriguing 'Swiss Garden' from 1905.
> ...


 
Wouldn't be surprised if many of the customers in the re-opened pub are dressed much in the manner of the two in the photograph


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 1, 2012)

There were builders in the ground floor of Bradys today - they were removing random rubbish: bricks, fire extinguishers and all sorts. I asked one of the builders what was going on but he claimed not to speak English 

It looks in a proper awful state - there's holes in the floor and floorboards missing etc.


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## lefteri (Nov 2, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I think I will comment on the applications supporting the retention of the pub but suggesting that decent soundproofing should be installed to at least make it possible that some sort of pub-type premises might be realistic and survive downstairs.


I'm not sure that this is an issue the planners will get involved in.  Noise transmission is usually a building control issue (ie would be the district surveyor's or approved inspectors' remit not planning officer) before and during construction (apart from noise made by construction works themselves which are covered by planning conditions) - then by environmental health once occupied.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 2, 2012)

lefteri said:


> I'm not sure that this is an issue the planners will get involved in. Noise transmission is usually a building control issue...


That may well be true....but someone has to make this point. The developers and the builders don't really give a fuck about whether a pub can survive there - they just want to get paid and rent the unit out. If they can't rent it out as a pub/cafe, it'll eventually end up being just another commercial retail unit. It would be totally nuts to do the building works and not install any soundproofing, thereby dooming the cause of a pub right from the start.


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## Rushy (Nov 2, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> That may well be true....but someone has to make this point. The developers and the builders don't really give a fuck about whether a pub can survive there - they just want to get paid and rent the unit out. If they can't rent it out as a pub/cafe, it'll eventually end up being just another commercial retail unit. It would be totally nuts to do the building works and not install any soundproofing, thereby dooming the cause of a pub right from the start.


It would be nuts. But it would be a building control issue.


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## lefteri (Nov 2, 2012)

there has to be significant attenuation between new residential units and anything else, this is in the building regulations and gets more onerous with each update to the relevant section - new buildings or refurbs that create new dwellings have to be tested for noise transfer before they can get their certificate.  These conditions are less onerous for commercial premises but if such a premises becomes adjacent to a newly created dwelling then the walls or floors between them must comply with the more onerous regs - if that makes sense


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 5, 2012)

The same builders were back in there this afternoon working in the rear part of the ground floor. They didn't look very happy with me peering in through the open door. Looks like they were installing steel beams to reinforce the walls, floor and ceilings (some of which are missing  ). But I can't quite work out why they be doing this work now, _before_ they have got any planning permission....?


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## teuchter (Nov 5, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The same builders were back in there this afternoon working in the rear part of the ground floor. They didn't look very happy with me peering in through the open door. Looks like they were installing steel beams to reinforce the walls, floor and ceilings (some of which are missing  ). But I can't quite work out why they be doing this work now, _before_ they have got any planning permission....?


Because they obviously reckon they are likely enough to get permission for it to be worth starting work at slight risk rather than wasting time hanging about waiting for the cogs to turn in the planning dept. Not unusual.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 6, 2012)

Is it legal?


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## Crispy (Nov 6, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Is it legal?


Yes.

Planning law covers external appearance and uses of buildings. You can repair and prop the internals to your hear'ts content without planning consent.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 6, 2012)

ta


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## teuchter (Nov 6, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Yes.
> 
> Planning law covers external appearance and uses of buildings. You can repair and prop the internals to your hear'ts content without planning consent.


 
Unless it's a listed building and the listing mentions internal features.


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## Crispy (Nov 6, 2012)

AFAIK, it's just the clock tower that's listed in Brady's case.


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## editor (Nov 6, 2012)

Crispy said:


> AFAIK, it's just the clock tower that's listed in Brady's case.


it's not.


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## teuchter (Nov 6, 2012)

It's only locally listed, isn't it? So doesn't have the same level of protection as a fully listed building.


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## editor (Nov 6, 2012)

teuchter said:


> It's only locally listed, isn't it? So doesn't have the same level of protection as a fully listed building.


I don't know if it's locally listed or not. Even if it is, it doesn't afford much protection.


> Local listing does not affect the requirements for planning permission. Some buildings can be demolished without planning permission and local listing does not affect that, although an article 4 direction issued by the local planning authority can reinstate the requirement for planning permission for demolition of a locally listed building.
> 
> http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/professional/advice/hpg/has/locallylistedhas/


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## teuchter (Nov 6, 2012)

I checked, it's a local listing. Page 2 here:

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/3E18B559-984B-4FCF-BFAE-05142D71B093/0/locallist031012.pdf




> The building dates from
> 1880 and is an
> imposing corner pub
> with good decorative
> ...


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## Crispy (Nov 6, 2012)

ah, didn't even know this "local listing" thing existed. doesn't seem worth much!


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## editor (Nov 6, 2012)

Crispy said:


> ah, didn't even know this "local listing" thing existed. doesn't seem worth much!


It's pretty meaningless really, although I'd say that there's a reasonable case for the clock tower to be properly listed (even if it's unlikely to ever work again given that all the workings have long vanished).


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## leanderman (Nov 6, 2012)

There should be a law forcing the owners of any building with a clock to make it work properly.


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## editor (Nov 16, 2012)

In the SLP today...


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 16, 2012)

Interesting...but not really any new info other than the sale proceeds the council got. It's a real shame Lambeth cashed in, because this could have been a great community-owned place.


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## Rushy (Nov 16, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Interesting...but not really any new info other than the sale proceeds the council got. It's a real shame Lambeth cashed in, because this could have been a great community-owned place.


Would have been nice but I am not convinced high maintenance buildings like this are best for such ventures as it makes the ventures way more expensive. Of course it is a gorgeous building, but a more sensible building would allow community cash should go into community projects rather than constant building maintenance - the Railway building will always be a money pit.

I'd say the same re BCA taking over Raleigh Hall. It's a sexy landmark building and I can see why anyone would have wanted it. But they could have developed a far more practical site for a quarter of the money as well as lower ongoing maintenance. At the time, the building now occupied by Electric Social was available. It would be much bigger, much more practical, cheaper to develop and and far cheaper to maintain. Of course, the connection with the square is nice but just not essential and they could have been up and running years ago.


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## Gramsci (Nov 17, 2012)

The article says the Council CPO Bradys for £770 000 in 2005 and sold it last December for £780 000.

Can this be correct? Means that Council only made £10 000 profit after buying it 2005 and selling it in 2011. Must have increased more than that in worth?

If that is all they made out of it how can Council go on about sale providing new homes and money for schools? Take off all the cost of security and I reckon the Council made a small loss on this.


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## Gramsci (Nov 17, 2012)

Back to the Brixton Masterplan ( approved by Cabinet) Page 100 says:



> Brady’s
> The Brady’s site provides a key desire line and link from the existing
> rear doors of the tube station north to the overland rail station. The
> masterplan protects this key route and the potential development of
> ...


 
Page 158 says



> Brady’s community facility
> 
> *Define a delivery methodology for Brady’s building to include community/cultural/leisure use* and remodelled rear addition to provide active frontage and overlook to new public space.
> 
> Lead/ Responsibility LBL


 
Which means Council officers were supposed to work on methodology to deliver the above.

What are the "alernative proposals" the Council say they looked at?

If officers produced a plan to deliver this objective of the Brixton Masterplan I never saw it. Nor did Future Brixton ask anyone on its email list there opinion.

So this was all ditched to sell this asset. As usual the so called "Cooperative Council" and consultation of residents on this asset never happened.


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## wurlycurly (Nov 17, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> The article says the Council CPO Bradys for £770 000 in 2005 and sold it last December for £780 000.
> 
> Can this be correct? Means that Council only made £10 000 profit after buying it 2005 and selling it in 2011. Must have increased more than that in worth?
> 
> If that is all they made out of it how can Council go on about sale providing new homes and money for schools? Take off all the cost of security and I reckon the Council made a small loss on this.


 
Typical Lambeth inefficiency. They also had 24-hour security in the building for a number of years. That must have cost a few bob.


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## Rushy (Nov 17, 2012)

Wa





Gramsci said:


> The article says the Council CPO Bradys for £770 000 in 2005 and sold it last December for £780 000.
> 
> Can this be correct? Means that Council only made £10 000 profit after buying it 2005 and selling it in 2011. Must have increased more than that in worth?
> 
> If that is all they made out of it how can Council go on about sale providing new homes and money for schools? Take off all the cost of security and I reckon the Council made a small loss on this.


 Was it operating when it was CPOd? If so, the price would have had to reflect the business value. It has also deteriorated over the past few years.


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## colacubes (Nov 17, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Wa
> Was it operating when it was CPOd? If so, the price would have had to reflect the business value. It has also deteriorated over the past few years.


 
Nope.  Had been shut for years.


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## Rushy (Nov 17, 2012)

OK. I don't think it was worth much more than what was paid for it recently. Guess they overpaid in 2005. Not sure how CPOs work. Maybe it makes sense to offer a price which cannot realistically be challenged as unfair.


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## twistedAM (Nov 17, 2012)

Rushy said:


> OK. I don't think it was worth much more than what was paid for it recently. Guess they overpaid in 2005. Not sure how CPOs work. Maybe it makes sense to offer a price which cannot realistically be challenged as unfair.


 
The business value would have gone up but so would have the refurb costs so I can see why the price between five years ago and now for that particular structure would be pretty much the same.


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## editor (Nov 17, 2012)

They should have let the squatters stay. They took good care of the building when they were there - and even took on the grim task of clearing the blocked drains.


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## Rushy (Nov 17, 2012)

editor said:


> They should have let the squatters stay. They took good care of the building when they were there - and even took on the grim task of clearing the blocked drains.


Not sure that's entirely true. Loads of evidence of squatter 'care' such as hardwood parquet in main hall lifted and burned in fireplace.


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## editor (Nov 17, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Not sure that's entirely true. Loads of evidence of squatter 'care' such as hardwood parquet in main hall lifted and burned in fireplace.


 At the time they documented the work they'd put in, and I remember seeing some pics of the fearsome muck they had to excavate. It would seem odd if they then started ripping the place up as you say. 

You sure that wasn't the workmen after?


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## Rushy (Nov 17, 2012)

editor said:


> At the time they documented the work they'd put in, and I remember seeing some pics of the fearsome muck they had to excavate. It would seem odd if they then started ripping the place up as you say.
> 
> You sure that wasn't the workmen after?


 Not sure what builders as there has only been very minor building work such as boarding up windows carried out until recently. But I don't know of any documented evidence of builders not having burned the parquet floor block by block in a fireplace so I guess it could have been them. Either them or those pesky kids who broke the window which the squatters opportunely climbed in through.


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## Gramsci (Nov 17, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Not sure that's entirely true. Loads of evidence of squatter 'care' such as hardwood parquet in main hall lifted and burned in fireplace.


 
There are two types of squatters. The ones that look after a building and the ones ( small minority) who see buildings as £s. Strip them of copper , lead and "architectural salvage".


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## editor (Nov 17, 2012)

I could be wrong but I do think it improbable that the original squatters would have created such damage. They loved the building and put in a huge amount of time and energy into making it usable as a community resource.


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## teuchter (Nov 17, 2012)

Burning a parquet floor doesn't seem like the best way of optimising the £s potential.


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## Gramsci (Nov 17, 2012)

Rushy said:


> OK. I don't think it was worth much more than what was paid for it recently. Guess they overpaid in 2005. Not sure how CPOs work. Maybe it makes sense to offer a price which cannot realistically be challenged as unfair.


 
I do not know myself that much about CPO. 

But the main point I meant was the Council say the sale brings in funds for Council. But all it does is recoup the money the Council spent CPO building.


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## Rushy (Nov 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I could be wrong but I do think it improbable that the original squatters would have created such damage. They loved the building and put in a huge amount of time and energy into making it usable as a community resource.


Fair enough. I don't know who the original squatters were. There were two separate periods of squatting though I think. I just think it is pretty improbable that builders securing the place would have had the time and/or inclination.

I've also had to go in and make buildings safe / clean up after squatters and burning floors and doors is not uncommon in the places I've been in. One of the 22 flats in Clifton had had floorboards torn up and burned in a neighbouring room's fireplace.

When the Bradys squat was up and running, what sort of community resources were provided?


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## editor (Nov 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Fair enough. I don't know who the original squatters were. There were two separate periods of squatting though I think. I just think it is pretty improbable that builders securing the place would have had the time and/or inclination.


I'm thinking more of the workmen who used the building for years while work was going on at the tube. A friend popped his head in at the time and it said it looked like a right shithole on there. I'd say they would have been more likely to trash the place than any squatters.


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## editor (Nov 18, 2012)

Rushy said:


> When the Bradys squat was up and running, what sort of community resources were provided?


They opened it as a bar/cafe/drop in centre, put on events, films and free talks with local artists and activists.

I spoke at one, where they'd managed to rather impressively get a hotshot German designer over.


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## publican (Dec 20, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Burning a parquet floor doesn't seem like the best way of optimising the £s potential.


It might still not be too late to save the pub. 
The developer wants to build flats, he will not consider leasing the ground floor to a pub or music venue (as it was previously) as this would affect the value of the flats.
The property was briefly marketed (over the past 10 days) as a pub and attracted several offers in excess of the £90,000 rent required, but none would be considered.  The planning permission about to be granted is for A1 (a shop).  The landlord is in negotiations to let it to a pound shop.  He will make his money from the flats.  Once the planning changes to A1 it can never be a pub again.
Lambeth planning decided it was not viable as a pub as it was closed.  But it was closed due to the compulsory purchase.  It has never been made available to the market as a pub - were it to be there would be many serious opperators interested.
The Developer is prepared to sell the freehold but he wants 2 million - as the building is worth this as flats, not the £779,000 he paid for it as a pub.
The planners will alow it to dissapear into cheap flats (with a railway through the middle) as no one has objected.
The planning officer is Richard McFerran:  RMcFerran@Lambeth.gov.uk
It wouldnt take much to save this building and return it to a thriving pub - but the community need to show that this is what they want, and object to the planning application.  Lambeth have a stated policy of trying to prevent pubs being converted into flats.
If enough people email the planning officer it could still be stopped, but it would have to happen immediately.


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## Badgers (Dec 20, 2012)

Excellent first post sir


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## Rushy (Dec 20, 2012)

Is there any evidence of the several offers above £90K?

It would be possible for the freeholder to say none of the offers were from suitable tenants - but hard if a successful group like Antic offered. Seems like a great spot for Antic. They could openly and publicly make an offer.


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## Badgers (Dec 20, 2012)

Rushy said:
			
		

> Is there any evidence of the several offers above £90K?
> 
> It would be possible for the freeholder to say none of the offers were from suitable tenants - but hard if a successful group like Antic offered. Seems like a great spot for Antic. They could openly and publicly make an offer.



They have just invested in another large local site though.


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## Rushy (Dec 20, 2012)

Badgers said:


> They have just invested in another large local site though.


They have invested in several. Effra Rd, Railton Rd (Harmony), Bug Bar (St Matthews Church) and maybe Coldharbour. Brady's would suit their portfolio very nicely.

But even if not interested, my point is it would be good to have a *public* offer from an economically credible potential tenant, whoever that may be.

Personally, I'd rather that not all drinking establishments ended up in one company's hand - but if the alternative is a pound shop then, great!


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## editor (Dec 20, 2012)

I can't imagine how tough it would be for nu-residents to try and get a good night's sleep in the upstairs of Bradys. The whole building shakes like mad when a train thunders past.


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## RaverDrew (Dec 20, 2012)

<Starts lobbying JD Wetherspoon to make a bid>


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## smiler747 (Dec 20, 2012)

Interesting. I went to view it last year when it was being marketed as a pub/restaurant. The place was in a terrible state. It had been gutted, everything that moved had been taken out or destroyed, including the majority of the parque floor. We concluded it It would have taken at least £100k to refurbish the place, and three months work before you could open the doors. It would only have been viable to do if you could have control of the upper floors (to rent out as offices, rehearsal spaces, studios etc), which are rat infested and open to the sky in one or two places. The freeholder though was not willing to let out both the ground and upper floors together. Then there was no permission in place that would have allowed for the creation of flats so we came to the conclusion the freeholder was attempting demonstrate the space was no longer viable as a pub, allowing them to seek permission to build flats on the site. It seems this is exactly what has transpired. It's hard to believe when Brixton is turning into the entertainment capital of South London they never received a credible offer to open the place as a bar/restaurant, or that anyone will want to live with a railway line running through their bedroom. The place could easily remain empty for some time to come.


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## Disastronaut (Dec 20, 2012)

I don't think its viable for residental - even trainspotters would hate it as editor mentions above... and although i can't comment officially for Antic I know that they've looked at it several times, possibly made offers and its just not happened.

I would love to open a club there. no question.


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## editor (Dec 20, 2012)

Disastronaut said:


> I don't think its viable for residental - even trainspotters would hate it as editor mentions above... and although i can't comment officially for Antic I know that they've looked at it several times, possibly made offers and its just not happened.
> 
> I would love to open a club there. no question.


When I first had the idea of Offline I had just two locations in mind as the perfect venues: Cooltan and Bradys. The Alabama3 gigs at Bradys were the stuff of legend.


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## publican (Dec 20, 2012)

editor said:


> When I first had the idea of Offline I had just two locations in mind as the perfect venues: Cooltan and Bradys. The Alabama3 gigs at Bradys were the stuff of legend.


I am involved in a pub in East London called Sebright Arms.  It was boarded up for two years after having been aquired by a developer who wanted to build flats.  It was only after he failed to get planning permission that we were able to get hold of it (having claimed that it was not viable as a pub).
We have now been open for a year and the pub is thriving.
I would be very interested in openning Bradys as a pub with live music, but the owner will not consider this as it would not work with the flats above.


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## editor (Dec 20, 2012)

publican said:


> I am involved in a pub in East London called Sebright Arms. It was boarded up for two years after having been aquired by a developer who wanted to build flats. It was only after he failed to get planning permission that we were able to get hold of it (having claimed that it was not viable as a pub).
> We have now been open for a year and the pub is thriving.
> I would be very interested in openning Bradys as a pub with live music, but the owner will not consider this as it would not work with the flats above.


I just took a look at your web page. Great to see a pub getting a bit of love and care! Good work  http://www.sebrightarms.co.uk/


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## Disastronaut (Dec 20, 2012)

I loved Cooltan as you know editor and hope that anyone - Sebright would be amazing -
could do that around the corner... with a few more venues like that - Brixton is ground zero best
place for london nightlife... might already be actually.


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## publican (Dec 20, 2012)

Disastronaut said:


> I loved Cooltan as you know editor and hope that anyone - Sebright would be amazing -
> could do that around the corner... with a few more venues like that - Brixton is ground zero best
> place for london nightlife... might already be actually.


All it took to save the Sebright was about 30 locals who wrote to the planners to say they wanted to keep the pub and didnt want it to be converted into flats.
The same could be done for Bradys, but it would have to happen immediately as the planning is about to be decided.
The planning officer is Richard McFerran: RMcFerran@Lambeth.gov.uk


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## TruXta (Dec 20, 2012)

publican said:


> All it took to save the Sebright was about 30 locals who wrote to the planners to say they wanted to keep the pub and didnt want it to be converted into flats.
> The same could be done for Bradys, but it would have to happen immediately as the planning is about to be decided.
> The planning officer is Richard McFerran: RMcFerran@Lambeth.gov.uk


I've no problem writing an email, but what needs to be in it apart from "I object to this shite"?


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## editor (Dec 20, 2012)

publican said:


> All it took to save the Sebright was about 30 locals who wrote to the planners to say they wanted to keep the pub and didnt want it to be converted into flats.
> The same could be done for Bradys, but it would have to happen immediately as the planning is about to be decided.
> The planning officer is Richard McFerran: RMcFerran@Lambeth.gov.uk


Objection mailed!


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## TruXta (Dec 20, 2012)

editor said:


> Objection mailed!


Did you refer back to a particular application with numbers/details etc?


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## editor (Dec 20, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Did you refer back to a particular application with numbers/details etc?


I haven't got any of that but surely it's better to start a dialogue NOW rather than wait around?


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## bosie (Dec 20, 2012)

publican said:


> All it took to save the Sebright was about 30 locals who wrote to the planners to say they wanted to keep the pub and didnt want it to be converted into flats.
> The same could be done for Bradys, but it would have to happen immediately as the planning is about to be decided.
> The planning officer is Richard McFerran: RMcFerran@Lambeth.gov.uk


 
Email sent!


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## TruXta (Dec 20, 2012)

editor said:


> I haven't got any of that but surely it's better to start a dialogue NOW rather than wait around?


Sure, just asking.


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## TruXta (Dec 20, 2012)

Email sent.


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## el-ahrairah (Dec 20, 2012)

publican said:


> I am involved in a pub in East London called Sebright Arms. It was boarded up for two years after having been aquired by a developer who wanted to build flats. It was only after he failed to get planning permission that we were able to get hold of it (having claimed that it was not viable as a pub).
> We have now been open for a year and the pub is thriving.
> I would be very interested in openning Bradys as a pub with live music, but the owner will not consider this as it would not work with the flats above.


 
i've been in there a couple of times.  nice place.  not sure about the american themed food though.  too many hipsters but it is in bethnal green so *shrug*


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## editor (Dec 20, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> i've been in there a couple of times. nice place. not sure about the american themed food though. too many hipsters but it is in bethnal green so *shrug*


Even a hipster-packed pub has got to be better than no pub. The hipsters will move on, but once a pub has turned into lifestyle flats it's gone forever.


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## Rushy (Dec 20, 2012)

This is the original sale brochure. Note that it says the council is looking for proposals which lead to the regeneration of Bradys and A3 use.


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## publican (Dec 20, 2012)

They were looking for A3 use - this means restaurant/cafe
Pub is A4
They even make it clear that the current planning use is A4 but no planning is required to change A4 to A3/2/1


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## RaverDrew (Dec 20, 2012)

Rushy said:


> This is the original sale brochure. Note that it says the council is looking for proposals which lead to the regeneration of Bradys and A3 use.
> 
> View attachment 26396


 
Why don't they just directly approach the Alabama 3 ?


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## editor (Dec 20, 2012)

I've just posted up a guide to the various planning classifications:
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ndy-guide-to-planning-classifications.303836/


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## teuchter (Dec 21, 2012)

publican said:


> All it took to save the Sebright was about 30 locals who wrote to the planners to say they wanted to keep the pub and didnt want it to be converted into flats.
> The same could be done for Bradys, but it would have to happen immediately as the planning is about to be decided.
> The planning officer is Richard McFerran: RMcFerran@Lambeth.gov.uk


 
I'm confused - what application are we writing to him about? The one for the pub bit or are we saying the separate application for the flats should be refused on the basis that it would make a pub unviable? Is that the one that's about to be decided? what's the deadline?


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## publican (Dec 21, 2012)

The current planning application is both to build 7 flats above the pub and to convert the pub from its current A4 (pub/bar) use to A1 (shop). 

The owner wants to guarantee that the site cannot be used as a pub so that it will not affect the value of the flats above.

If the plans to build the 7 flats above was abandoned and the pub was made available to an operator who wishes to run it as it is - as a pub - it would attract plenty of serious interest.  Unfortunately this has never been done because converting the pub into flats will make more profit for the current owner.


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## publican (Dec 21, 2012)

current planning application:
11/04500/FUL  |  The change of use of the existing building (Use Class A4) into a ground floor and basement commercial unit (Use Class A1) and seven self contained flats (Use Class C3) on the upper floors alongside the erection of a part -two, part-single storey rear extension; creation of waste and cycle storage; replacement and amendments to fenestration; alteration to the external elevational treatment and the formation of new entrances.  |  Railway Tavern Public House 20 Atlantic Road London SW9 8JA
link here: http://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/onli...iveTab=externalDocuments&keyVal=LWI3DJBOHV000


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 21, 2012)

Email sent.

I've already commented on other applications related to Bradys. In fact, one of the applications [_ 12/03895/FUL for external alterations to shopfronts and installation of ventilation in connection with the subdivision of ground floor of existing building for use as part cafe (A3) and part public house (A4)_ ] was granted permission the other day.

It's just sad that the council washed their hands of Bradys by selling it for no profit, having owned it and paid money securing it for years. Crazy.


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## Rushy (Dec 21, 2012)

publican said:


> The current planning application is both to build 7 flats above the pub and to convert the pub from its current A4 (pub/bar) use to A1 (shop).
> 
> The owner wants to guarantee that the site cannot be used as a pub so that it will not affect the value of the flats above.
> 
> If the plans to build the 7 flats above was abandoned and the pub was made available to an operator who wishes to run it as it is - as a pub - it would attract plenty of serious interest. Unfortunately this has never been done because converting the pub into flats will make more profit for the current owner.


It would be really helpful if you could provide details of some of the offers made to rent the space - to planning, if not publicly. Otherwise applicant will be able to claim it is not economically viable and other. That is the strongest route. Without that the 'viability report' cannot easily be challenged.


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## publican (Dec 21, 2012)

I have emailed planning with details of an offer of rent at or above the asking price of £90,000.  The agent - www.goodsirgraham.co.uk - are marketing the pub as only A1/A2/A3 (shop or cafe or restaurant) not pub/bar.  They have told me that they will not consider offers from operators who wish to run a pub/bar (A4).  I was also told that they had already had offers in excess of the £90,000 rent from other pub operators who had also been turned down.


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## publican (Dec 21, 2012)

CAMRA SW (Campagin for Real Ale) email -
'Planning law as it currently stands offers insufficient protection to such pubs. CAMRA would prefer planning policies to require that a pub be marketed as a pub for a set period before planning permission for any alternative use is considered.'

Today is the last day to email the planning officer before Christmas shut down:  So far:
Brixton Hatter, Editor, Bosie, TruXta, Publican, and CAMRA

that makes just 6...any more?

The planning officer is Mr Richard McFerran RMcFerran@Lambeth.gov.uk Tel: 020 7926 1180


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## editor (Dec 21, 2012)

publican said:


> CAMRA SW (Campagin for Real Ale) email -
> 'Planning law as it currently stands offers insufficient protection to such pubs. CAMRA would prefer planning policies to require that a pub be marketed as a pub for a set period before planning permission for any alternative use is considered.'
> 
> Today is the last day to email the planning officer before Christmas shut down: So far:
> ...


*Tweeted and Facebooked to the nth degree.


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## footballerslegs (Dec 21, 2012)

Today is the last day to email the planning officer before Christmas shut down: So far:
Brixton Hatter, Editor, Bosie, TruXta, Publican, and CAMRA

that makes just 6...any more?

The planning officer is Mr Richard McFerran RMcFerran@Lambeth.gov.uk Tel: 020 7926 1180
[/quote]

Sent email yesterday.


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## cuppa tee (Dec 21, 2012)

Email sent.


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## timothysutton1 (Dec 21, 2012)

Email sent.


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## leanderman (Dec 21, 2012)

Done


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## publican (Dec 21, 2012)

The Lambeth Unitary Development Plan:
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/...icy/UDP2007PoliciesSavedBeyond5August2010.htm
4.12.15. (page 85) 'Where public houses are to be retained as part of a wider development, both the building and internal features will be retained by condition or planning obligation.  Marketing exercises should also account for the cost of replacement of public house features deliberately removed with the intention of frustrating the policy. Regard will be had to the CAMRA public house viability test.'

www.camra.org.uk/viabilitytest : The pub should be advertised for sale as a pub before change of use is given:
page 8:  'Where and how often has the pub been advertised for sale? Has it been advertised for at least 12 months? In particular, has the sale been placed with specialist licensed trade and/or local agents?
Has the pub been offered for sale as a going concern?
Has the pub been offered at a realistic competitive price? (Information to enable this to be analysed can be obtained from The Publican and Morning Advertiser newspapers and from Fleurets, specialist Chartered Surveyors).'


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## Gramsci (Dec 26, 2012)

Rushy said:


> This is the original sale brochure. Note that it says the council is looking for proposals which lead to the regeneration of Bradys and A3 use.
> 
> View attachment 26396


 
I notice the Council estate agents Hamptons say the Council is looking for proposals for community use and A3.

The original Brixton Masterplan ( agreed by Cabinet but not statutory planning guidelines) says:




> Brady’s community facility
> Define a delivery methodology for Brady’s building to
> include community/cultural/leisure use and remodelled
> rear addition to provide active frontage and overlook to
> new public space.


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## Gramsci (Dec 26, 2012)

Put in comments:

This application goes against the Brixton Masterplan.

See page 158 http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/7C3C5404-5E90-42CF-9B60-28711A9C941B/0/ySec6.pdf

I quote from Brixton Masterplan:

"Brady’s community facility Define a delivery methodology for Brady’s building to include community/cultural/leisure use and remodelled rear addition to provide active frontage and overlook to new public space."

Also the Lambert Smith Hampton sales brochure for the building stated that the Council was seeking proposals that would lead to the regeneration of Bradys and community / A3 use.

This application does not satisfy either.

This application should be put on hold until the Brixton SPD is finished. Unless a new application is put in that follows the Brixton Masterplan and the what the Council said they were seeking in a proposal in the LSH brochure.


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## publican (Jan 3, 2013)

Unfortunately because of 'devolved powers' the planning department do not have to refer this to a committee for final approval but can grant permission themselves.  They have decided to approve the development of the 7 flats and the change of use of the pub to a shop.

Although the planning department agree that they have not followed their policy - that pubs should be protected and should be marketed as a pub before redevelopment is given - they say there is an 'element of flexibility' within their policy.

They did not feel that the loss of the pub would be controversial as they had received no objections... Until shortly before Christmas, by which time they say it is too late.

CAMRA are attempting to persuade the planners to refer the application to a planning committee to avoid reputational damage now that people are aware that the application will result in the loss of Bradys as a pub, and because they haven't followed policy.

Any more emails to the planners would help to apply pressure.  They should apply their own policy to preserve the pub as a pub if it can be a viable business.  The planners used the fact that the pub has been closed for so long as evidence that it was not viable ( but it was closed because of the compulsory purchase - it has never been made available as a pub).


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## editor (Jan 4, 2013)

publican said:


> Any more emails to the planners would help to apply pressure.


Could you perhaps suggest a template and any other addresses that people could email?

I'm pretty sure I could help generate a load of publicity about this, but the course of suggested action has to be made crystal clear...


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## Gramsci (Jan 4, 2013)

publican said:


> Unfortunately because of 'devolved powers' the planning department do not have to refer this to a committee for final approval but can grant permission themselves. They have decided to approve the development of the 7 flats and the change of use of the pub to a shop.
> 
> Although the planning department agree that they have not followed their policy - that pubs should be protected and should be marketed as a pub before redevelopment is given - they say there is an 'element of flexibility' within their policy.
> 
> They did not feel that the loss of the pub would be controversial as they had received no objections... Until shortly before Christmas, by which time they say it is too late.


 
I have just looked up the application and it says "Status- pending decision" I am now "tracking" it. I did online comments- if it had been decided then I would not have been able to comment.


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## editor (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm happy to give this a fucking almighty push via my blog, BrixtonBuzz site/mag, Lambeth Weekender etc., but I'd appreciate help in writing the exact nature of what people can do to formulate the most effective opposition to these plans


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## publican (Jan 4, 2013)

I think most effective would be a 'Save Bradys' campaign based on the councils declared policy of protecting pubs from redevelopment, unless they are not viable as a pub: 

The Lambeth Unitary Development Plan:
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/...icy/UDP2007PoliciesSavedBeyond5August2010.htm
4.12.15. (page 85) 'Where public houses are to be retained as part of a wider development, both the building and internal features will be retained by condition or planning obligation. Marketing exercises should also account for the cost of replacement of public house features deliberately removed with the intention of frustrating the policy. Regard will be had to the CAMRA public house viability test.'

www.camra.org.uk/viabilitytest : The pub should be advertised for sale as a pub before change of use is given:
page 8: 'Where and how often has the pub been advertised for sale? Has it been advertised for at least 12 months? In particular, has the sale been placed with specialist licensed trade and/or local agents?
Has the pub been offered for sale as a going concern?
Has the pub been offered at a realistic competitive price? (Information to enable this to be analysed can be obtained from The Publican and Morning Advertiser newspapers and from Fleurets, specialist Chartered Surveyors).'

Basically the council compulsorily purchased an iconic pub and music venue, allowed it to fall into disrepair, then sold it for redevelopment as flats.  If they decided they did not require it they should have just returned it to the market as a pub (preferably in the condition in which they had found it).

The assumption that because it has been empty for so long then it is not viable as a pub and must be redeveloped as flats it not correct.  This could once again be an iconic Brixton venue.  They should apply CAMRAs viability test, as set out in their Unitary Development Plan.  The site is much better suited to being a pub than flats (it has a railway through the middle).


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## publican (Jan 4, 2013)

Would it be worth contacting the journalist who did the piece on it before, and explain that the developer is only interested in building flats and wants the ground floor to be A1 - shop, as it's current use A4 pub would be incompatible with the flats?


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## teuchter (Jan 5, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm happy to give this a fucking almighty push via my blog, BrixtonBuzz site/mag, Lambeth Weekender etc., but I'd appreciate help in writing the exact nature of what people can do to formulate the most effective opposition to these plans


 
I think it would be great to get the broader issue out there as well, particularly if this specific case seems to generate interest amongst people. As discussed regularly on here, this pattern seems to apply to the fate of many pubs. There's already quite a body of info on U75, both in your "lost pubs of brixton" feature and amongst forum discussions.

The whole thing seems a massive failure of what planning is supposed to be about - countering market pressures where necessary to protect what's for the general good in the long term. If Lambeth feel that people don't actually care about keeping pubs open, then it should be stated in their planning policy. If it's other motivations that repeatedly create this situation where the planners accept claims of non-viability seemingly without requiring any evidence of a genuine attempt to offer a site to the market, then obviously questions need to be asked.


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## teuchter (Jan 5, 2013)

Would there be any mileage in selecting 3 or 4 recent examples, and making a FOI request to Lambeth asking for details of the tests that they applied to determine that there was no interest in the building continuing as a pub? Asking for a record of their investigations as per the CAMRA "viability test" which is a stated part of their policy?


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## editor (Jan 5, 2013)

I think that there would be a lot of local interest in saving the boozer and I'm prepared to put in a fair bit of work to get the message out. Perhaps one idea might be to ask folks here to put together short statements using their knowledge to cover the various issues (planning/social/history etc) and then using that as a campaigning springboard?


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## Brixton Hatter (Jan 6, 2013)

editor said:


> I think that there would be a lot of local interest in saving the boozer and I'm prepared to put in a fair bit of work to get the message out. Perhaps one idea might be to ask folks here to put together short statements using their knowledge to cover the various issues (planning/social/history etc) and then using that as a campaigning springboard?


Yes....and the forthcoming consultation on the Lambeth Supplementary Planning Document offers another opportunity for the community to restate its' wishes re: pubs etc.


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## publican (Jan 7, 2013)

One of the main threats to pubs in London is that residential property has become so much more valuable than commercial property.
Developers can make a good profit by asset stripping pubs.
They develop the accommodation above and sell it off separately.  If they can make something out of the ground floor then this is a bonus, but often the pub is left empty.  Developers generally don't want a pub as this will affect the value of the flats.  There is also no requirement to get planning permission to convert a pub into a shop. (Over 200 pubs nationally have been converted into supermarkets since 2010 http://www.camra.org.uk/article.php?group_id=8153 ).
A pub with privately owned flats above is very hard to run as the residents can complain about customers arriving and leaving after 10pm or smoking outside; entertainment such as live music becomes almost impossible.
When the accommodation is part of the business, such as staff accommodation, this isn't a problem.
Bradys is a good example of this.
By allowing 7 flats to be built above the pub they give the developer a financial incentive to convert the ground floor pub into something quieter like a shop.


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## Megglewel (Jan 7, 2013)

I can cover this in the Lambeth Weekender - we have a distribution of 40,000 in Lambeth. I'm going to plough back through the thread but I'll need people to talk to, so if anyone with particular knowledge of the pub's history or the planning history of the site and/or a Brixton resident with a view on the social value of a pub on that site wants is happy to talk to me then email megan@myweekender.co.uk with a number and a good time to call. Thanks.


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## TruXta (Jan 7, 2013)

Megglewel said:


> I can cover this in the Lambeth Weekender - we have a distribution of 40,000 in Lambeth. I'm going to plough back through the thread but I'll need people to talk to, so if anyone with particular knowledge of the pub's history or the planning history of the site and/or a Brixton resident with a view on the social value of a pub on that site wants is happy to talk to me then email megan@myweekender.co.uk with a number and a good time to call. Thanks.


Thanks! Can't really help, but just wanted to say that this is exactly what is needed. Bad publicity for the council never hurt.


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## editor (Jan 7, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Thanks! Can't really help, but just wanted to say that this is exactly what is needed. Bad publicity for the council never hurt.


And once the story is up, I'l be happy to run it on the urban75 blog/BrixtonBuzz site etc., and hopefully we can collectively whip up some sort of unified campaign and get people involved/signing petitions/pressurising the council etc.


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## publican (Jan 11, 2013)

The planning for the flats seems to have gone through now.  The developer has already done quite a bit of work.  The ground floor will almost certainly be let, just not as a bar, pub, or music venue as this wouldn't work with the new residents.  As it is in such a prime location it is likely to be a restaurant.


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## editor (Jan 11, 2013)

Fuck. Nice one Lambeth. Thanks for listening. 

Oh, and good luck to the new residents living with the house-shaking rumble of the trains going overhead. Better nail down your crockery.


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## Rushy (Jan 11, 2013)

Are you sure? Still says 'pending decision'.


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## Gramsci (Jan 12, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Are you sure? Still says 'pending decision'.


 
I am "tracking" the application. Just logged into the planning database and it still says "pending decision".

You must have done the same Rushy.


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## publican (Jan 12, 2013)

The planners have decided to approve the application.  Because of 'devolved powers' they can decide the application within the department (larger developments need to be decided by a committee).
They have presumably told the developer that they are approving it.  The only delay is apparently that they are waiting for a parking permit application which is with the legal department.
I guess if they change their minds now, having told the developer that they have approved it, they might be vulnerable to legal action.
CAMRA felt the best way to object to the loss of the pub was that Lambeth hadn't demonstrated that the pub was not viable as a pub (as discussed in previous posts) or may not have been sold for the best price to the developer: 'Section 123 of the 1979 Local Government Act which requires local authorities to sell their assets at the best achievable price in the open market unless there are compelling reasons why not.'
Unfortunately CAMRA also feel that we came to this too late.  If we had tackled it when the planning application was first made things could have been different.
CAMRA thought there was a chance - 'the Planning Superior might yet be persuaded to escalate the final decision on the application to elected representatives, given that planning officers’ actions have not followed applicable planning policies and that reputational damage could well result now that people know what has been going on.'
But I guess the planners would have to balance this against possible legal action from the developer.  They probably feel that people will be happy with a restaurant and will not miss the pub/music venue as it has been closed for so long.
The developer is certainly proceeding as if he is definitely getting planning for the flats above.


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## Rushy (Jan 13, 2013)

publican said:


> I guess if they change their minds now, having told the developer that they have approved it, they might be vulnerable to legal action.


Im pretty certain that this is incorrect.


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## publican (Jan 15, 2013)

Yes, I do not know if they might face legal issues with the developer if they don't go ahead with the planning, sorry if this sounded like fact, just thinking out loud.

Spoke to one of the agents yesterday and they said that there might be a delay on the planning for the flats, so perhaps the pressure on the planning department from the emails sent has made a difference.  Perhaps they have decided to push the decision up to a committee - once again, just thinking out loud.


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## teuchter (Jan 15, 2013)

Publican, what is it that leads you to believe the planning has gone through already?


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## publican (Jan 16, 2013)

Just before Christmas I spoke to the planning officer, he told me that they they had decided to approve planning for the flats and were just waiting for a parking permit from the legal department.  He told me that until just before Christmas they had had no objections.  Because of 'devolved powers' they can decide the application within the planning dept. 
I spoke to CAMRA who advised that the planners might still push the final decision up to a committee if they thought it was contentious, or if it might lead to 'reputational damage' because they had not followed their policy of establishing wether the pub was viable.
When I went to the site I saw that the developer has already done quite a bit of building work, putting in new stairs up to first floor and a new ceiling separating ground from first floor, it is a complete shell, with most things ripped out and new steels inserted to support the new flats.


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## LambethWeeknder (Jan 21, 2013)

Hello all, am going to run a story on this in the next Lambeth Weekender (out Feb 8) because the Brixton Community Trust and Brixton Society are going to the local gov Ombudsman about how the council have behaved with regards to Brady's and the wider regeneration of Electric Avenue. The gist of what they are saying is that the council disregarded the community in favour of making money when they sold Brady's, and that's what they are still doing in that bit of Brixton.
Obviously the sale happened a year ago, but they are asking for compensation for the Princes Trust and others who worked up the proposal for a community centre there, and they would also like for the building to now become a pub rather than anything else.
*I am meeting members of the BCT and Brixton Society at Cafe Max, opposite Brixton Rec, to do a photo for the paper on Thurs Jan 24 at 10am - anybody who wants to come and show support and be in the picture is very welcome. *
A council spokesperson said planning permission is not needed to change A4 to A1/A2/A3 - but the council did say this:

The property is a locally listed building and is in a conservation area, which means that its design and appearance is protected via policies 46 and 47 of the UDP and policy S9 of the Core Strategy. It sits within the Brixton Major Centre Primary shopping area where we would seek to protect A class uses (retail, financial & professional services and food & drink) or D class (community facilities or leisure) via policy 4 of the UDP and S3 of the Core Strategy. Although this property has not been in active use for a number of years, it is considered that the lawful use of the property is as an A4 unit, therefore policy 27 of the UDP would also apply which resists the loss of public houses to a non A-class use.)


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## editor (Jan 21, 2013)

Great work!


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## editor (Jan 21, 2013)

Posted on BrixtonBuzz too:
http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/01/...g-brixton-bradys-pub-as-a-community-resource/


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## Brixton Hatter (Jan 23, 2013)

Motman just wanted to draw your attention to this thread


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## publican (Jan 23, 2013)

I have contacted CAMRA south west London to ask them to put the word out about the Lambeth Weekender meet and photo.


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## editor (Jan 24, 2013)

Did anyone get down to the photo op today? I was all set to go but I'm ruddy well stuck indoors waiting for my knackered PC to be picked up and a new - hopefully working - one to be delivered.


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## Paul Hill (Jan 24, 2013)

The outline of the Bradys saga is this:

Building derelict. Community bid for community centre. Benefits to community and Lambeth since activities will create self-supporting people thus lightening burden on Lambeth Social Services.

Went through all the hoops Lambeth imposed. Will pay valuer's estimate of building's worth. Four years' work and £80k public money spent.

Despite promises, Lambeth sold building to offshore property speculator.

A year later Lambeth applies for charity grant to pay back the purchase price to property speculator; in effect giving him the building, and, what is more, Lambeth claims the money on the grounds that it has talked to the community about its plans and the community just loves the idea.

In other words: That the very community which fought so hard for for four years to buy the building has now given its blessing to Lambeth giving away the building to an off-shore property speculator


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## el-ahrairah (Jan 24, 2013)

it's a nonsense isn't it.


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## editor (Jan 24, 2013)

Paul Hill said:


> ...and, what is more, Lambeth claims the money on the grounds that it has talked to the community about its plans and the community just loves the idea.


I must have somehow missed that.


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## Rushy (Jan 24, 2013)

Paul Hill said:


> A year later Lambeth applies for charity grant to pay back the purchase price to property speculator; in effect giving him the building, and, what is more, Lambeth claims the money on the grounds that it has talked to the community about its plans and the community just loves th


Never heard about this. Any more INFO?

what price did the valuer put on it?


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## editor (Jan 24, 2013)

This whole thing stinks.


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## TruXta (Jan 24, 2013)

It's tempting to ask if there are grounds to mount a legal challenge against the council.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 24, 2013)

TruXta said:


> It's tempting to ask if there are grounds to mount a legal challenge against the council.


 
Indeed. This:



> A year later Lambeth applies for charity grant to pay back the purchase price to property speculator; in effect giving him the building,


 
sounds just like something that might happen if there was some pretty blatant corruption going on. If it did happen as described of course.


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## Winot (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm sure a council as competent as Lambeth would have checked to make sure this didn't fall foul of anti-money laundering rules.


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## TruXta (Jan 24, 2013)

Aha! HAHA! HHHHHHAHAHAHAHAH!


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## leanderman (Jan 24, 2013)

Paul Hill said:


> The outline of the Bradys saga is this:
> 
> Building derelict. Community bid for community centre. Benefits to community and Lambeth since activities will create self-supporting people thus lightening burden on Lambeth Social Services.
> 
> ...


 

Seriously? It was given away? That would be incompetent, or criminal.

Is it not a matter for some kind of ombudsman - or the courts, or something?


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## editor (Jan 24, 2013)

As far as I know, Paul Hill is taking the matter up with the ombudsman. I wish his every success.


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## Brixton Hatter (Jan 24, 2013)

Paul Hill said:


> The outline of the Bradys saga is this:
> 
> Building derelict. Community bid for community centre. Benefits to community and Lambeth since activities will create self-supporting people thus lightening burden on Lambeth Social Services.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info Paul. I didn't know about the grant application - a really important bit of info.

welcome to Urban75 by the way 

And do come back here if you need help/support re: Bradys....


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## Giles (Jan 24, 2013)

How much was it actually sold for?

Giles..


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## Brixton Hatter (Jan 24, 2013)

Giles said:


> How much was it actually sold for?
> 
> Giles..


about £800,000 iirc.


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## leanderman (Jan 24, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> about £800,000 iirc.


 
And then Lambeth apparently gives the £800k back to the buyer.

Why?


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 25, 2013)

I'm not local, and I've just seen this, and not read through all 24 pages, but something seriously does not compute here.  Either the facts as stated are inaccurate in some way, or something seriously dodgy is going on.

Have Lambeth really given the developer back the money he paid for the building, with no strings attached?  (in effect given him the building for free) or are the council buying the building back?

What 'charity grant' have Lambeth applied for, from what charity, and on what basis?   If the above is the case, I can't see how this sort of thing would meet any charity's objectives, and can't help thinking the charity commissioners might have something to say.  But they would need to know what charity is involved.

I also can't help thinking this would be a fairly drastic breach of councillors / officers' (as appropriate) fiduciary duty.  If you work for a council, you're hardly allowed to buy a pack of paperclips without getting approval in triplicate from high level.  A decision to hand out £800 K would have to be made at pretty damn high level.

May well be stating the bleeding obvious, but this page on the audit commission website has more about querying a council's accounts (sounds like a registered local elector can ask more awkward questions than someone who's not local), and various forms of redress (e.g. ombudsman, external auditors etc) depending on just what has happened.


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## publican (Jan 25, 2013)

Is there a link or some more information about The council paying back the developer through a charitable grant?


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## snowy_again (Jan 25, 2013)

I've assumed the 'charity grant' would have been the input from the Princes Trust, or the Princes Regeneration Trust? That would have been revenue support though - on the feasibility of turning back into a community asset; rather than a capital grant to off set the purchase? Who knows... will Lambeth Finance documents cover that in any more detail?


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## lilou_b (Jan 25, 2013)

any links to any docs? surely a planning permission and anything similar should be published, and i am not familiar with the lambeth website, but would hope to find it there?
ah wait, found this, if someone can help find the correct one http://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/onli...s.do?activeTab=relatedCases&keyVal=0000243CON


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## lilou_b (Jan 25, 2013)

Apologies for coming in late and not reading through, saw at page 22 of the thread that sale and reconversion to 7 flats + shop/restaurant rather than pub sounds unchallengeable now. However the "charity grant" is a new thing, and indeed it'd be great to share as much info as poss about it. not sure how you can actually track the link between the grant application (grant from whom) to the sale/lease of the Brady's?


----------



## Rushy (Jan 26, 2013)

Am thinking the charity grant to pay back the purchaser is probably a misunderstanding by the poster who mentioned it. They don't seem to have any details and no one else has heard about it.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 1, 2013)

Discussion about pubs/supermarkets and planning rules on R4's Today programme this morning, listen from 2:40 onwards. They mention the George IV on Brixton Hill.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01q979p


----------



## baldrick (Feb 1, 2013)

Thanks for pointing out it was me that found it. Appreciated.


----------



## snowy_again (Feb 1, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Am thinking the charity grant to pay back the purchaser is probably a misunderstanding by the poster who mentioned it. They don't seem to have any details and no one else has heard about it.


 
So, according to this morning's Brixton Bugle it seems to be a potential application to the Heritage Lottery Fund's Townscape Heritage Initiative although the Prince's Regeneration Trust report says they've also supported the project:

http://www.princes-regeneration.org/sites/default/files/PRT_Annual_Report_for_website_FINAL.pdf


----------



## Rushy (Feb 1, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> So, according to this morning's Brixton Bugle it seems to be a potential application to the Heritage Lottery Fund's Townscape Heritage Initiative although the Prince's Regeneration Trust report says they've also supported the project:
> 
> http://www.princes-regeneration.org/sites/default/files/PRT_Annual_Report_for_website_FINAL.pdf


 

The Princes Trust report says nothing more than name the project, which we knew as they funded the BCT bid.


I can't find the Bugle article online but my understanding of the townscape heritage initiative is that the fund encourages good quality conservation work which economically might not otherwise be viable. E.g. the clocktower is going to cost an arm and a leg to restore properly (as opposed to a temporary bodge) and provide no real economic benefit to the new owners, so the trust gives money specifically for that purpose. Those types of grants usually carry a lot of conditions, are pretty closely monitored and paid after work stages are complete.

It would be helpful if Paul Hill, who I think is or was Chairman of the BCT, could expand on his earlier post about there being a grant to pay back the owner's purchase costs.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 1, 2013)

baldrick said:


> Thanks for pointing out it was me that found it. Appreciated.


 
I'm so terribly sorry for not acknowledging your hard work and massive contribution to the boards.


----------



## editor (Feb 1, 2013)

There's a piece in the South London Press.


(Apols for the shonky image)


----------



## Paul Hill (Feb 9, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Thanks for the info Paul. I didn't know about the grant application - a really important bit of info.
> 
> welcome to Urban75 by the way
> 
> And do come back here if you need help/support re: Bradys....


 Thanks Brixton Hatter. The latest just to clear up a few points:


Brixton Community Trust's campaign was to resurrect Bradys as a place for people to meet, work, and enjoy themselves as a real and free community of groups and individuals.
Misinformation​On page 17 in the latest (February 8th) edition of "Lambeth Weekender" there appears an article which says that BCT was "acting on an informal agreement from Lambeth Council that the pub would be gifted (sic!) to them ... ."
Brixton Community Trust wanted to buy Bradys​Let it be perfectly clear; at no time did BCT expect or ask for the building to be given free; on the contrary, BCT had always said quite clearly that it would pay the market value if only Lambeth Council would first make a promise to the Heritage Lottery Fund that it would sell the building to BCT.
This promise Lambeth Council refused to make.
Lambeth Council gave Bradys away to a Property Speculator​Lambeth instead sold the building to a company registered in an offshore tax haven and, to add insult to injury, Lambeth then turned around and applied to the HLF for £700,000 to give to the new owner that same £700,00 he paid for the building in the first place!
Lambeth Laid Bare​Thus Lambeth Council, the self-styled "Co-operative Council, the representative of community interests", has revealed itself for what it is: the very dear friend of property speculators.
No amount of Lambeth Council's mealy-mouthed claptrap can hide the fact that Lambeth Council gave away Bradys to a property speculator rather than sell it to a real community group.


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## Paul Hill (Feb 9, 2013)

publican said:


> The planning for the flats seems to have gone through now. The developer has already done quite a bit of work. The ground floor will almost certainly be let, just not as a bar, pub, or music venue as this wouldn't work with the new residents. As it is in such a prime location it is likely to be a restaurant.


 Just heard: The company renting Bradys (Antic) has gone bust!


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## Paul Hill (Feb 9, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Never heard about this. Any more INFO?
> 
> what price did the valuer put on it?


The valuer put a tag of £700,000 on the building. The valuation was made by the same agent selling the building by closed bid. Deadline for bids was June 11th 2011. The valuation was made in July, i.e. one month after the bids were received. It would be interesting to know just how much the other bidders thought the building was worth.
Also off interest is the fact that Lambeth Council paid £700,000 for the building when it compulsorily purchased the building some years ago.


----------



## cuppa tee (Feb 9, 2013)

Paul Hill said:


> Just heard: The company renting Bradys (Antic) has gone bust!


Antic.......? 
you have got to be joking


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 9, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> Antic.......?
> you have got to be joking



This has been on a few threads. One of their subsidiaries has.


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## cuppa tee (Feb 9, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> This has been on a few threads. One of their subsidiaries has.


I knew the Antic company had gone bust, didnt realise they were renting Brady's.


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## leanderman (Feb 9, 2013)

I may be wrong, but not much new has been added to the sum of human knowledge on this subject.

and it comes back to the extraordinary 'cash handed to the developer' allegation

which, if true, would be criminal


----------



## editor (Feb 9, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> I knew the Antic company had gone bust, didnt realise they were renting Brady's.


That's news to me. I knew that - like a lot of local businesses - they desperately wanted the venue, but as far as I knew they didn't get a look in.


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## Paul Hill (Feb 9, 2013)

editor said:


> And once the story is up, I'l be happy to run it on the urban75 blog/BrixtonBuzz site etc., and hopefully we can collectively whip up some sort of unified campaign and get people involved/signing petitions/pressurising the council etc.


I've posted a correction to Lambeth Weekender article which says Brixton Community Trust wanted the building free (BCT always said it would by buy if Lambeth gave it the go-ahead) on Brixton Buzz but not sure how independent BB is of the Weekender.


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## Paul Hill (Feb 9, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I may be wrong, but not much new has been added to the sum of human knowledge on this subject.
> 
> and it comes back to the extraordinary 'cash handed to the developer' allegation
> 
> which, if true, would be criminal


Looking objectively at how Lambeth Council works is rather like looking at a Christmas cake. First you see the figures stuck in the icing - that's the councillors; pretty decorations but that's all. The icing on which our councillors are standing is the democracy. That's coloured blue, red or yellow according to which party is in office. But underneath all that, and hidden from view until the cake is cut open, there is found the real cake, the substance, the heart of the matter. All else, the icing, the decorations etc, are there simply to flatter our democratic illusions. Lambeth Council's real purpose is business. The actual fruitcake, with the flour so beloved of the mealy-mouthed employees and the plain nuts on fantastic salaries are simply working in a common or garden profit-making enterprise. The business of Lambeth is business. It acts like it, it sounds like it, it smells like it. Business is what Lambeth Council is about, democracy is merely their mission statement. R.I.P.


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## Curly German (Feb 9, 2013)

Paul Hill said:


> Lambeth then turned around and applied to the HLF for £700,000 to give to the new owner that same £700,00 he paid for the building in the first place!


 
Might this be another way of saying that Lambeth helped the developer apply for a large grant?

Seems more plausable.


----------



## Paul Hill (Feb 9, 2013)

Curly German said:


> Might this be another way of saying that Lambeth helped the developer apply for a large grant?
> 
> Seems more plausable.


Actually Lambeth's latest foray into the Bradys malestrom is the Townscape Heritage Initiative. See attached: page 17, Bradys No 1 on the list and for which Lambeth is asking £719,379


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## editor (Feb 9, 2013)

Paul Hill said:


> I've posted a correction to Lambeth Weekender article which says Brixton Community Trust wanted the building free (BCT always said it would by buy if Lambeth gave it the go-ahead) on Brixton Buzz but not sure how independent BB is of the Weekender.


I can tell you with absolute certainty that BrixtonBuzz is 100% independent of the Lambeth Weekender - it's run by me and a fellow Brixtionite


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## Curly German (Feb 9, 2013)

Paul Hill said:


> Actually Lambeth's latest foray into the Bradys malestrom is the Townscape Heritage Initiative. See attached: page 17, Bradys No 1 on the list and for which Lambeth is asking £719,379


That is an application for a £12m grant from the National Lottery to improve the shopfronts around Brixton Station. It's not a handout, it's for specific improvements.


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## Paul Hill (Feb 9, 2013)

Curly German said:


> That is an application for a £12m grant from the National Lottery to improve the shopfronts around Brixton Station. It's not a handout, it's for specific improvements.


Charity is by definition a handout and £719,379 was the cost to the purchaser so, ipso facto, the purchaser is getting the building for nothing. A handout of £719379 will most definitely improve the new owner's bank balance.
The building was sold, by the way, on the understanding that the new owner would not be in need of any other than his own resources for the refurbishment of the building.


----------



## snowy_again (Feb 10, 2013)

P





Paul Hill said:


> Actually Lambeth's latest foray into the Bradys malestrom is the Townscape Heritage Initiative. See attached: page 17, Bradys No 1 on the list and for which Lambeth is asking £719,379



p15 is the table with the brady's 700k. Lots of plans for development in that doc. Can't tell if it's all optimistic 'we'll do this if you fund us and we're allowed to do it legally' or not.  Lambeth is lacking in hlf funds since the bca, so who knows.


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## Paul Hill (Feb 22, 2013)

editor said:


> That's news to me. I knew that - like a lot of local businesses - they desperately wanted the venue, but as far as I knew they didn't get a look in.


Leaseholder of Bradys Antic Ltd, went bust a couple of weeks ago. Antic was owned by Maxwell John Alderman.

Antic's assets have been acquired by Gregarious Ltd formed on 15th February last. Gregarious Ltd is owned by the same Maxwell John Alderman


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## editor (Mar 1, 2013)

So I learnt a bit more about Antic and Bradys last night. Apparently, they put in a competitive bid where they offered to refurb the upper floors and give them up to social/community use, opening a pub/restaurant on the ground floor. They were keen to take it over because they're fully aware of the history of the place.

The council elected to go for the Golfrate bid, that was slightly higher but included no social provision. Antic are still desperate to get the pub.


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## colacubes (Mar 4, 2013)

editor said:


> Fuck. Nice one Lambeth. Thanks for listening.
> 
> Oh, and good luck to the new residents living with the house-shaking rumble of the trains going overhead. Better nail down your crockery.





Rushy said:


> Are you sure? Still says 'pending decision'.


 
We've had a letter through from the council today and it has now been approved for Change of use from A4 (pub) to A1 (retail) on ground floor and basement plus 7 flats upstairs.  There's loads of caveats re things that may change the appearance of the building and getting approval so it doesn't fall foul of the conservation area, but I think it would be fair to say it's not going to be a pub ever again


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## leanderman (Mar 7, 2013)

So it's all over? Because a Brewdog chain person just told me, via Twitter, that South London is on the 2013 target list and 'Brixton does feel right'.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 8, 2013)

leanderman said:


> So it's all over? Because a Brewdog chain person just told me, via Twitter, that South London is on the 2013 target list and 'Brixton does feel right'.



Aren't they opening a place on coldharbour lane already?


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## leanderman (Mar 8, 2013)

He implied not, saying: 'Do you know of a possible location?'


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## Rushy (Mar 8, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Aren't they opening a place on coldharbour lane already?


The place they were rumoured to be taking on is the same one that is now rumoured to be opening as a Tesco Metro (Old Brixton Cycles).


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## editor (Jul 30, 2013)

It's been boarded up for well over a decade now. It's a fucking disgrace. 

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/07/...xton-bradys-pub-left-empty-for-over-a-decade/


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## leanderman (Jul 30, 2013)

What's the latest? Anything?


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## colacubes (Jul 30, 2013)

There's work of some sort happening in there.  I think they're knocking down the section in the yard that was tacked on at a later date.  There's been drilling and stuff happening during the day for the past couple of weeks.


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## editor (Jul 30, 2013)

I just passed it now and there doesn't seem to be any work done on the top floor - at least nothing I could see.


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## colacubes (Jul 30, 2013)

editor said:


> I just passed it now and there doesn't seem to be any work done on the top floor - at least nothing I could see.


 

They'd put in some covering to protect part of the inside where the roof was exposing it.  Unfortunately it got completely ripped to shreds during the hailstorm last week and as yet hasn't been replaced


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## leanderman (Jul 30, 2013)

Who owns it again?


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## editor (Jul 30, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Who owns it again?


Golfrate*. Lovely people.

*least I think it's them


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## Paul Hill (Aug 7, 2013)

Below is the response to a Freedom of Info request made to Lambeth and received on the 7th December 2011.

Dear Mr Wisdom
Thank you for your Freedom of Information Request.
Following the same sequence the Council responses are:

Completion of the sale is scheduled for 15 December.
The buyer is Mendoza Ltd - affiliated to the Golfrate Group.
The sale price remains confidential until completion of the sale has occurred after which it will be available from HM Land Registry
The purchaser is obliged to put the property into beneficial use within 18 months of the completion of the sale.
A2 use is excluded for 5 years from the date of sale.
During the first 18 month after completion the upper floors of the property are to be marketed for use of small businesses or community uses at a market rent.

I trust that you will find the Council's responses satisfactory but please let me know if you require further clarification.

Rgds

*Tunde Ogbe*
*Corporate Property Manager*
*Valuation and Asset Management Services*
*Housing, Regeneration and Environment*
*phone:* 020 7926 9370
*fax:* 020 7926 9357
*email:* togbe@lambeth.gov.uk
*website:* http://www.lambeth.gov.uk
_________________________________________
June this year was the deadline for the building to be put back into use, one of those uses being for small businesses or community groups


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## editor (Aug 7, 2013)

So they are in breach of their contract, given that 18 months has passed and the building has still not been put to any use, let alone 'beneficial' use?


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## Paul Hill (Aug 9, 2013)

Yes they are and Lambeth says it'll take quite a time to investigate.

Meanwhile a watch is being kept out for any demolition crew and photographs are being taken day by day.

It would *greatly help this cause* if people some contributors to this forum would write in to Mr Ogbe (above) telling him what's happening.
Then there's always the possibility that Lambeth's Chief Exec (£250,000/yr) Derek Anderson might also draw benefit from some reminders of his responsibilities.


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## Paul Hill (Aug 15, 2013)

If it is remembered how Lambeth is asking the Heritage Lottery Fund for some 2 point some million ostensibly to tart up Elecrtric Avenue and that fully one third of the amount asked for, some £700,000, will be given to the new owner thus, in effect giving him a free building - the net result of all this chicanery is that Lambeth will have spent and tens of £000s of so-called "taxpayers' money" (sic) just to enable it to give away Bradys on the sole condition that the lucky new owner spends at least £700,000 on the refurbishment of the original, 1880's, Bradys.

In contrast to this, the Brixton Community Trust, paying the same amount to buy the building in the first place, would, with no further involvement or expense to the Council, have invested double that amount (circa £1.5+ million) in refurbing to the highest Heritage standards and refurbed or rebuilt a public hall at the back. And all done for real Brixton and not for the benefit of some dodgy offshore speculator.

Ain't democracy great!


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## editor (Aug 15, 2013)

The Brixton Community Trust would have been by far the better choice, or failing that, Antic, who would have at least committed to reopening a working pub. Instead we've got a hugely dubious bunch sitting on the place for God knows how long.

Great work Lambeth!


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## leanderman (Aug 15, 2013)

Why is this so opaque? I demand clarity. But can't be bothered to dig around myself. Why are people allowed to sit on sites like this? They should be forfeited in 12 months if no development takes place.


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## Paul Hill (Aug 20, 2013)

"Opaque" is certainly the word.

'Why?' you ask, 'are people are allowed to sit on sites like this without doing what they said they would.'

Well that's because sometimes, sitting and doing nothing makes actually more money than doing something. The Council could have done something if it had really wanted to, but then that point itself poses the question; 'Why has the Council stood by and watched while the new owner has sat on the building and done absolutely nothing with it for nearly two years?'


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 20, 2013)

Paul Hill said:


> Meanwhile a watch is being kept out for any demolition crew and photographs are being taken day by day.


I've seen builders in and out of there on occasions over the past few months. Last time I looked in through the door a month or two ago it looked like they'd divided up the ground floor into smaller spaces using crude breeze-block walls


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## leanderman (Aug 30, 2013)

It's going to be a Wahaca (mexican chain) according to Brixton Blog.

http://www.brixtonblog.com/mexican-food-chain-wahaca-eyes-brixton-branch/15790


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## snowy_again (Aug 30, 2013)

How depressing.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2013)

Another fucking chain. Fuck you Lambeth.


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## Crispy (Aug 30, 2013)

I was expecting Pizza Express


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## editor (Aug 30, 2013)

Crispy said:


> I was expecting Pizza Express


 
It all adds up to the same.


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## aussw9 (Aug 30, 2013)

oi wahaca... fuck off


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## colacubes (Aug 30, 2013)

Crispy said:


> I was expecting Pizza Express



Me too. But like Ed says, same difference


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## Rushy (Aug 30, 2013)

Crispy said:


> I was expecting Pizza Express


 
Reckon they might have been chatting about the unit next to Clifton.


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## snowy_again (Aug 30, 2013)

They've still got few brixton plans according to someone I know who used to work there who's now Nando's honcho.


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## cuppa tee (Aug 30, 2013)

leanderman said:


> It's going to be a Wahaca (mexican chain)



......and the ball keeps rolling  it's things like this make me want to believe in the supernatural, the energies released by such an abomination would guarantee closure before Xmas.


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## leanderman (Aug 30, 2013)

Amazing how quickly all this happens, almost conspiratorially. Yet it's a series of independent and self-confirming decisions by everything from one-man bands to firms as large as Starbucks.


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## Ms T (Aug 31, 2013)

Brindisa AND Wahaca in Brixton. Blimey.


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## pissflaps (Aug 31, 2013)

and still no taco bell.


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## Paul Hill (Sep 12, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Amazing how quickly all this happens, almost conspiratorially. Yet it's a series of independent and self-confirming decisions by everything from one-man bands to firms as large as Starbucks.



*Market in Yard behind Bradys*

On the 30th July Lambeth received a Planning Application for the setting up of a market in the yard behind Bradys.

That was six weeks ago.
The details are here:
*Reference:* 13/03369/FUL
*Proposal:* Change of use of existing land to create a temporary market place, including 2 loading bays.

The Application is at:
http://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/onli...ils.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=MQR7O4BO67000



1. No legally required notices telling people of this application were posted on or about the building.
2. This matter accidentally came to the attention of people living and working nearby about a week ago.
3. Some people asked questions about the application and then Lambeth delivered leaflets about it.
4. Consultation closes on 13th Sept 2013.




Objections made so far:

1. Conditions of use not stated.
Fruit and vegetable market? craft stalls? coffee stops? food? alcohol permitted? Hours of Opening?

2. Dangerous conflict with cars.
Electric Lane too narrow and dangerous to people loitering outside a natural gathering point such as that created by an entrance to the market from this Lane.

3. Duration of Licence.
No statement on how long market will be allowed to operate. How long is the 'temporary' of the proposal? No indication of the hours of operation

Iridium, the Applicant, claims it owns the yard, or has had a lease on it for the past 7 years.
Iridium says: "_I am an owner of a freehold interest in the relevant land or a leasehold interest in the relevant land of 7 years or more from the date planning permission first permits the chargeable development_" . (See Community Infrastructure Levy (CIL), Form 2: Claiming Exemption or Relief, 2nd sentence on page 3 on website above)

Transport for London has owned the yard since the 1970s and might have sold it but this seems very unlikely.

If Iridium does have ownership or a seven-year leaseholding, IRIDUM will be allowed to escape obligations to carry out repairs to the outside pavements and roads nor will it have to make improvements to any other works of public utility nearby.

Lambeth is co-operating with IRIDIUM


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## Rushy (Sep 12, 2013)

Tfl still own it. Iridium have taken out a lease. What is curious is that I was involved with a group who agreed lease terms on the site in late 2011who proposed a food court but TFL then decided they did not want a public use in there due to the large vent for the underground and and electricity substation. They said it could only be used for storage / works yard. I wonder if Iridium have agreed this use with TfL?


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## happyshopper (Sep 12, 2013)

This used to be part of a pedestrian route between Brixton (LT) and Brixton (BR), together with the arcade alongside the former.


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 12, 2013)

Seems like they're trying to pull a bit of a fast one.

We've put comments in.


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 12, 2013)

As for Electric Lane, I'd like to see the 'no vehicles' rule (10am-4pm) actually enforced.....though I think it provides the council with a decent source of parking ticket revenue.


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## Rushy (Sep 13, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Seems like they're trying to pull a bit of a fast one.


How so?


----------



## thatguyhex (Sep 13, 2013)

happyshopper said:


> This used to be part of a pedestrian route between Brixton (LT) and Brixton (BR), together with the arcade alongside the former.


Are there pictures/a map of that route and arcade online anywhere? I never saw them when they existed.


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 13, 2013)

Rushy said:


> How so?


The application is devoid of all the details you'd want to assess whether it's a sensible idea or not.


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## Paul Hill (Sep 15, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The application is devoid of all the details you'd want to assess whether it's a sensible idea or not.


Well here's an objection to that silly market from the Brixton Society


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## teuchter (Sep 15, 2013)

Paul Hill said:


> Well here's an objection to that silly market from the Brixton Society


Kind of interesting that, if that objection is correct, Lambeth have accepted the application as valid even though basic stuff like the Design & Access Statement is missing. In my experience Lambeth will take the tiniest omission as an opportunity to fire an application back at you as invalid.


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## Paul Hill (Sep 15, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Kind of interesting that, if that objection is correct, Lambeth have accepted the application as valid even though basic stuff like the Design & Access Statement is missing. In my experience Lambeth will take the tiniest omission as an opportunity to fire an application back at you as invalid.


And here's an omission, a big one.
*New owner in breach of the Terms of Sale*​
1. The Terms of Sale that the new owner signed up to when he bought Brady's was that he would improve the original 1880s building to make it fit for commercial and community use by 14th June 2013.


2. There has been demolition work on the modern rear extension but the original building is still derelict and a fire hazard.


3. Lambeth Council is talking to the new owner about this. There is no talk of any penalty for breaching the Terms of Sale.

The gigantic "omission" signed up to and most solemnly agreed to, so far from being fired back, is being allowed to run and run as all the while Bradys falls further and further into ruin. One rule for them .... .


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## Pilum (Sep 15, 2013)

Why did the council let them go ahead on an illegal demolition on the back when they weren't doing up the front like they should have?


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 4, 2013)

The application for the market at the back of Brady's has been withdrawn.

colacubes memespring


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## colacubes (Oct 5, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The application for the market at the back of Brady's has been withdrawn.
> 
> colacubes memespring



Ta for letting us know


----------



## Pat Breen (Nov 30, 2013)

..Just came across this forum, I worked in Brady's in 1976 as a barman,it was a Brady house but I think it was called the Railway Arms if I remember rightly...The Kings Head in Merton was also a Brady house..Great memories of those times..


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## Casaubon (Dec 3, 2013)

Pat Breen said:


> ..Just came across this forum, I worked in Brady's in 1976 as a barman,it was a Brady house but I think it was called the Railway Arms if I remember rightly...The Kings Head in Merton was also a Brady house..Great memories of those times..


I always think of it as The Railway, rather than Brady's. I think Brady's became the more commonly-used name from the mid or late 80s, although both names were used. 
I think the Russell Hotel on Brixton Rd up towards Oval (on the corner of Caldwell St, now a Tesco Express) was a Brady's pub too. Or is my memory letting me down?


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## SarfLondoner (Dec 3, 2013)

Casaubon said:


> I always think of it as The Railway, rather than Brady's. I think Brady's became the more commonly-used name from the mid or late 80s, although both names were used.
> I think the Russell Hotel on Brixton Rd up towards Oval (on the corner of Caldwell St, now a Tesco Express) was a Brady's pub too. Or is my memory letting me down?


You are correct!


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## editor (Jan 6, 2014)

Looks like the tower is getting a full refurb. You can't really see it in this picture, but the panels below the clock have been removed, presumably to remove the crap graffiti.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2014)

There's work going on there now. 

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/01/...ixton-bradys-gets-some-much-needed-attention/


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## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

Looking good, will have to have a good gander next time I come through on the train.


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## editor (Feb 18, 2014)

Here's how it's looking today.


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## cuppa tee (Feb 18, 2014)

editor said:


> Here's how it's looking today.


I can see these being very popular as holiday let's for groovy tourists who don't like the mainstream alternative at the holiday inn, the prices will be astronomical for locals


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## SarfLondoner (Feb 18, 2014)

They wont get much sleep with the trains,market and loading bay right on top of them.


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## leanderman (Feb 18, 2014)

That road is a little grim - so even if the architecture is not up to scratch, it's an improvement, especially the clock


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## editor (Feb 19, 2014)

leanderman said:


> That road is a little grim - so even if the architecture is not up to scratch, it's an improvement, especially the clock


The clock has always been there and it only got covered in graffiti because the council fucked it all up and let the building go to rot.


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## colacubes (Feb 19, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> They wont get much sleep with the trains,market and loading bay right on top of them.



You'd be surprised. The loading bay doesn't really operate at night and there's already lots of residents in that area. The trains may well be an issue, I grant you


----------



## leanderman (Feb 19, 2014)

editor said:


> The clock has always been there and it only got covered in graffiti because the council fucked it all up and let the building go to rot.



I knew the clock was already there!


----------



## leanderman (Feb 19, 2014)

colacubes said:


> You'd be surprised. The loading bay doesn't really operate at night and there's already lots of residents in that area. The trains may well be an issue, I grant you



Who wouldn't want a train in their living room?


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 19, 2014)

I'd like to live there


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2014)

I've stood in the top floor of Brady#s when a train passes. It's very _resonant. _


----------



## leanderman (Feb 19, 2014)

editor said:


> I've stood in the top floor of Brady#s when a train passes. It's very _resonant. _



Vibrant?


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Vibrant?


Too vibrant for some, I'd wager. They'll soon be complaining to the council that the railway line should be closed down.


----------



## lang rabbie (Feb 19, 2014)

Are they actually restoring all the clock faces to working order?


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2014)

lang rabbie said:


> Are they actually restoring all the clock faces to working order?


That is indeed the question...


----------



## Rushy (Feb 20, 2014)

lang rabbie said:


> Are they actually restoring all the clock faces to working order?


Don't know - but I saw the one from the clock tower in Brockwell Park being taken away for repair last week.


----------



## colacubes (Apr 14, 2014)

The windows on the flats were being put in over the weekend, and I have to say, they're not messing around on the soundproofing front by the looks of it as they are very thick and hefty!

In other news, the boxpark application was withdrawn after going in a 2nd time with more details, but now instead they've put in an application for a bog standard market at the back again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2014)

colacubes said:


> The windows on the flats were being put in over the weekend


have they had the glaziers round to fix them yet?


----------



## colacubes (Apr 14, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> have they had the glaziers round to fix them yet?



I don't fully understand the technicalities but I assume so as they're now set in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2014)

colacubes said:


> I don't fully understand the technicalities but I assume so as they're now set in.








some put in windows recently


----------



## editor (Jun 5, 2014)

The shutters have finally come off Bradys. Shame it's been lost as a pub forever thanks to the 'co operative' council.











http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/06/...ff-the-former-bradys-public-house-in-brixton/


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 4, 2014)

Nice to be able to look in the windows now. Also, the old Bradys sign is now gone:






Is it still gonna be a Wahaca?


----------



## colacubes (Aug 4, 2014)

Not heard otherwise and the construction signs still say it's for Wahaca.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 4, 2014)

colacubes said:


> Not heard otherwise and the construction signs still say it's for Wahaca.



My doubt growing


----------



## colacubes (Aug 11, 2014)

leanderman said:


> My doubt growing



Spotted this when I walked past last night which seems to confirm it will be a Wahaca:


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2014)

The bedrooms above look quite smart - you can see from the Victoria-bound platform of the station. I was going to volunteer to do photos - but on second thoughts..


----------



## thatguyhex (Aug 13, 2014)

editor said:


> The shutters have finally come off Bradys. Shame it's been lost as a pub forever thanks to the 'co operative' council.


Yeah. Maybe we should get a plaque up that says "On this spot in 2012 [or whenever it was] Lambeth Council took the money and ran".


----------



## CH1 (Aug 14, 2014)

Here are some pics from the railway station platform.
Not ideal as a vantage point, but you can see the nicely cleaned up clock faces, work currently going on and also that the 1st floor now furnished, albeit sparsely, but in the best possible taste.


----------



## editor (Aug 14, 2014)

Some more pics: 






http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/08/wahaca-brixton-set-to-open-up-in-atlantic-road-in-early-october/


----------



## leanderman (Aug 18, 2014)

CH1 said:


> Here are some pics from the railway station platform.
> Not ideal as a vantage point, but you can see the nicely cleaned up clock faces, work currently going on and also that the 1st floor now furnished, albeit sparsely, but in the best possible taste.
> View attachment 59574
> View attachment 59575
> ...



Unconvinced I'd want a railway line all but running through my home


----------



## Ms T (Aug 18, 2014)

Love that they're taking that god-awful paint off to reveal the original tiles underneath.


----------



## jennyj (Aug 20, 2014)

For anyone with a spare £450k:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-47680943.html


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2014)

jennyj said:


> For anyone with a spare £450k:
> 
> http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-47680943.html


So depressing.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 20, 2014)

jennyj said:


> For anyone with a spare £450k:
> 
> http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-47680943.html



Do you have to wind up the clock? 

Double Bedroom Incorporating Clock Tower Mechanism
Exposed Clock Mechanism Features


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Do you have to wind up the clock?
> 
> Double Bedroom Incorporating Clock Tower Mechanism
> Exposed Clock Mechanism Features


There's barely any "clock mechanism" there. It got stripped out years ago. I'd love to see the faces of the nu-residents when they feel a freight train thundering overhead. 

And doesn't this look nice?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 20, 2014)

editor said:


> There's barely any "clock mechanism" there. It got stripped out years ago. I'd love to see the faces of the nu-residents when they feel a freight train thundering overhead.
> 
> And doesn't this look nice?
> 
> View attachment 59833


That stair in the photo is largely as it was, I think. I quite like it.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 20, 2014)

Yep - I think this is probably the same stair back in 2011.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2014)

Yes, but now it just ends mid flight by crashing into a new ceiling, with a weird fragment of window showing. It looks ridiculous.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 20, 2014)

editor said:


> Yes, but now it just ends mid flight by crashing into a new ceiling, with a weird fragment of window showing. It looks ridiculous.


Really? It looks pretty much identical to the original feature to me. The sofit to the underside of the stairs looks like it intersects the window in exactly the same place, just above the meeting point of the two sashes.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 20, 2014)

I like the bit in the ad where it says the clock mechanism in the bedroom is a real talking point. Because that's what you want to do when you are going to bed - talk about clocks. 

Flat looks cold - could have done with using a warm colour in all that space.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Really? It looks pretty much identical to the original feature to me. The sofit to the underside of the stairs looks like it intersects the window in exactly the same place, just above the meeting point of the two sashes.


Except the stairs now go nowhere so the window is in a strange little triangle of space. But if you think it's great, that's fine by me.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 20, 2014)

editor said:


> Except the stairs now go nowhere so the window is in a strange little triangle of space. But if you think it's great, that's fine by me.


That window is on the stair between the second floor and third floor. It leads to the third floor landing from which there are no more stairs up. It is exactly as it was. Not that that means you have to like it, but it has been restored as original.


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2014)

Edit: can't be arsed


----------



## ChrisSouth (Aug 21, 2014)

editor said:


> So depressing.


I don't think it's depressing. Depressing is a black dog. Depressing is when you feel that you can't move. Depressing is a horrible situation. Brady's may be sad and upsetting, but it isn't depressing.


----------



## editor (Aug 21, 2014)

ChrisSouth said:


> I don't think it's depressing. Depressing is a black dog. Depressing is when you feel that you can't move. Depressing is a horrible situation. Brady's may be sad and upsetting, but it isn't depressing.


It is to me. Seeing that wonderful community pub turned into exclusive apartments breaks my heart. My heart sinks every time I go past it.


----------



## uk benzo (Aug 24, 2014)

Brady's newly painted clock tower has been graffitied.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 24, 2014)

uk benzo said:


> View attachment 59996 Brady's newly painted clock tower has been graffitied.


Yes I've noticed that waiting for the train recently. Shouldn't think Grime Busters will be going up there in a hurry.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 24, 2014)

Looks like a nice flat.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2014)

jennyj said:


> For anyone with a spare £450k:
> 
> http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-47680943.html



That seems an awful lot for a small flat. It looks interesting place but its right by railway and above a restaurant.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2014)

uk benzo said:


> View attachment 59996 Brady's newly painted clock tower has been graffitied.



I like streetart but tagging does look crap most of the time.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2014)

SpamMisery said:


> Looks like a nice flat.


Especially if you're a big fan of deep rumbling vibrations.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 24, 2014)

Wouldn't have far to walk to catch the train


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2014)

SpamMisery said:


> Wouldn't have far to walk to catch the train


You can't catch the one that goes through the building.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 24, 2014)

Lovely beams in the reception room


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2014)

SpamMisery said:


> Lovely beams in the reception room


I bet they rattle about a treat.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 24, 2014)

Nifty secondary glazing though


----------



## technical (Aug 24, 2014)

For once estate agents aren't lying when they mention close proximity to public transport


----------



## leanderman (Aug 24, 2014)

technical said:


> For once estate agents aren't lying when they mention close proximity to public transport



I'd expect a hefty discount in return for having a rail line running through my home. Yet the asking price doesn't much suggest this.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 24, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I'd expect a hefty discount in return for having a rail line running through my home. Yet the asking price doesn't much suggest this.


£625-660/sqft (with / without the long entrance hall - which you normally would include for comparisons) seems quite a lot lower than recent values for newly developed property. Still wouldn't tempt me to live under the train though!


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2014)

SpamMisery said:


> Nifty secondary glazing though


Have you ever been up in the top floors of that building? No amount of 'nifty' double glazing will stop the whole building shaking like mad when a heavy train rumbles overhead. Instead of trying to squeeze in expensive lifestyle flats the place should have been left as a community resource, for which is far more suited.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 24, 2014)

I like the white paint


----------



## sparkybird (Aug 24, 2014)

jennyj said:


> For anyone with a spare £450k:
> 
> http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-47680943.html



I love the fact that the bedroom is described as 'a real talking point'....

By the time you get your 'friend(s)' into the bedroom, I would have thought not much talking going on.....


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2014)

SpamMisery said:


> I like the white paint


By Christ, you're becoming tedious.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2014)

sparkybird said:


> I love the fact that the bedroom is described as 'a real talking point'....
> 
> By the time you get your 'friend(s)' into the bedroom, I would have thought not much talking going on.....


More like a "bellowing point."


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 24, 2014)




----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2014)

editor said:


> By Christ, you're becoming tedious.



"Becoming"? You have a gift for understatement!


----------



## colacubes (Sep 19, 2014)

Had a chat in passing with the guys who are painting the outside of the building earlier today.  They're doing some spray paint stuff in reasonably nice sympathetic colours.  IMO what they've done so far is looking pretty good   Apparently the Bradys signage on Electric Lane is staying as it is, and they're also putting in a Railway Hotel type sign in a similar typeface on the Atlantic Road side.  My guess is Wahaca will be open early November given how close it is to being done.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 20, 2014)

colacubes said:


> Had a chat in passing with the guys who are painting the outside of the building earlier today.  They're doing some spray paint stuff in reasonably nice sympathetic colours.  IMO what they've done so far is looking pretty good   Apparently the Bradys signage on Electric Lane is staying as it is, and they're also putting in a Railway Hotel type sign in a similar typeface on the Atlantic Road side.  My guess is Wahaca will be open early November given how close it is to being done.



Probably: Schedule in window suggests build period finishes end this month.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 23, 2014)

I think the flat per se is really nice. The question is why in the fuck they put it where they did? Some poor fucking idiot will pay 450k for it too. It's scarcely believable.


----------



## T & P (Sep 23, 2014)

It'd be a train spotter's dream home though. Although they never struck me as affluent types...


----------



## colacubes (Sep 23, 2014)

People have already moved in to some of the flats by the look of it so they got snapped up pretty quickly!!


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2014)

T & P said:


> It'd be a train spotter's dream home though. Although they never struck me as affluent types...


Won't get much of a view of a train that's going overhead!


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2014)

Admire the vibrancy:












http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/09/...adys-a-vibrant-makeover-as-opening-day-looms/


----------



## Crispy (Sep 23, 2014)

Ugh. I hate that paint job. A similar thing was done to a smart old building opposite Kings Cross: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sovKN9gAzdICjN8xPjvlztw!2e0


----------



## CH1 (Sep 23, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Ugh. I hate that paint job. A similar thing was done to a smart old building opposite Kings Cross: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sovKN9gAzdICjN8xPjvlztw!2e0


Can't see it myself - the Kings Cross one looks quite bad.
The picture of the Railway/Bradys looks quite good to me, but have not seen it yet in the flesh so to speak.


----------



## colacubes (Sep 23, 2014)

I actually don't mind the paint job too much.


----------



## Dan U (Sep 23, 2014)

the bit on the left of the door looks like two dancing, colourful, penises.


----------



## boohoo (Sep 23, 2014)

when a building has striking features I don't see the need to add lots of colour at the bottom. I'm curious to see what it's like at the end but I'm not sure like it on the Brady's building.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 23, 2014)

I agree. It obliterates the architectural identity of the building.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 23, 2014)

I really like the paintwork around the side entrance under the bridge.  Had a chat to the guys doing the work on that part Thursday last week - nice guys and seemed pretty proud of it. Not brilliantly keen on the front - just seems unnecessary.

As for the Kings Cross building - well, I thought that about the architectural integrity to begin with but then decided that I quite liked the idea that they were breaking it up without being destructive. As an idea though, once you have seen it once it doesn't really have the same impact when it is repeated. 

I'm entirely bored with commissioned designer tagging exteriors / interiors.


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2014)

Seems a long long time ago since I saw this sign outside Bradys.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 23, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Ugh. I hate that paint job. A similar thing was done to a smart old building opposite Kings Cross: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sovKN9gAzdICjN8xPjvlztw!2e0


That is Barclays bank!


----------



## Rushy (Sep 23, 2014)

It's the Megaro Hotel.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 23, 2014)

Rushy said:


> It's the Megaro Hotel.


It is Barclays on street level.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 23, 2014)

MrSki said:


> It is Barclays on street level.


It is but it is not painted. Just the uppers occupied by the Megaro and the entrances at street level.


----------



## cuppa tee (Sep 23, 2014)

editor said:


> Admire the vibrancy



just checked out the wahaca website

http://www.wahaca.co.uk/locations/brixton-2/

when I read this I shuddered



> Bringing a Brixton institution back to life, Wahaca Brixton is housed in the original Railway Hotel, bringing Mexican street food to the heart of the community. The restaurant sits restored original features alongside our own style, created by local graffiti artists and furniture designers. Once home to legendary gigs and sessions by Hendrix and The Clash, Wahaca Brixton will host regular DJ nights and *spaces are available for local community events*



trading heavily on the venues past which they have probably only read about and the word _communit_y looms large, I wonder how they will define it


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> just checked out the wahaca website
> 
> http://www.wahaca.co.uk/locations/brixton-2/
> 
> ...


I can't help but join in with your shuddering.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 24, 2014)

Why shudder though? Nothing they say is wrong or misleading. Nobody would argue that it would have been much better to have the old Brady's and community space back but nobody managed that while it was closed for years and years.

Wahaca have at least put it back in use and seem to be trying to give a nod to the history of the building.


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> Why shudder though? Nothing they say is wrong or misleading. Nobody would argue that it would have been much better to have the old Brady's and community space back but nobody managed that while it was closed for years and years.
> 
> Wahaca have at least put it back in use and seem to be trying to give a nod to the history of the building.


Wahaca are only here because (1) Brixton's become a  'safer' bet for businesses and (2) there's money to be made, and they're only 'nodding' to the past because it helps them make more of (2).


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 24, 2014)

editor said:


> Wahaca are only here because (1) Brixton's become a  'safer' bet for businesses and (2) there's money to be made, and they're only 'nodding' to the past because it helps them make more of (2).


Fair enough but those points are true for all new businesses in Brixton. Better to keep some of the history alive in my opinion by restoring physical features and trying to keep some memories alive. If that makes them more successful then I personally have no problem with that.


----------



## Thaw (Sep 24, 2014)

Bitching and moaning because community space is lost.
Bitching and moaning because community space is offered.


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2014)

Thaw said:


> Bitching and moaning because community space is lost.
> Bitching and moaning because community space is offered.


Define 'community space' with regards to this commercial development please. 

Property developers have a habit of bandying around that phrase but not actually delivering on anything, you see.


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> Fair enough but those points are true for all new businesses in Brixton. Better to keep some of the history alive in my opinion by restoring physical features and trying to keep some memories alive. If that makes them more successful then I personally have no problem with that.


 The 'Keeping history alive' spiel has proved quite a neat marketing point.


----------



## Thaw (Sep 24, 2014)

'space for community events' seems like a good enough definition.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 24, 2014)

editor said:


> The 'Keeping history alive' spiel has proved quite a neat marketing point.


Jesus that's awful. I don't think it's a good comparison with Brady's and Wahaca though.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 24, 2014)

Thaw said:


> 'space for community events' seems like a good enough definition.


Maybe the soon to be closed Canterbury could be put in that community space?


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2014)

Thaw said:


> 'space for community events' seems like a good enough definition.


I'm glad you're so clear on that because whenever I've directly asked developers to explain exactly what they mean, they tend to go rather vague on the details/costings/definition of 'community'  etc.


----------



## boohoo (Sep 24, 2014)

Thaw - people use the word community as a feel good word to denote a neighbourhood where local residents all talk to each and have shared values. However as we are all aware within a neighbourhood there can be many communities (even the cosy world of urban75 has a varied of communities with differing opinions). Wahaca has said they offer community spaces but to which of Brixton's communities? I'm sure they are open to all but what is the cost of using this space? Some community projects would not want to spend money on where they go to have a meeting or will find it odd that some of those attending a meeting in that space would not be able to afford to eat there.

People can offer facilities til they are blue in the face but if they are not of service to the local people or they don't make sure that the community know about them, they become redundant. I'm sure someone will use  their community spaces but you might just find it's more likely to be the wealthier newer members of Brixton than the more established communities (although of course not all over the established older community are poor or less wealthy than the new comers!)


----------



## Brainaddict (Sep 24, 2014)

tbh it could have been much worse. Wahaca at least does okay food at fairly affordable prices. Depends what you compare it to I suppose. Worse than something of actual community use but better than a Slug and Lettuce. I suppose that's damning it with faint praise, but the food really isn't bad


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Thaw - people use the word community as a feel good word to denote a neighbourhood where local residents all talk to each and have shared values. However as we are all aware within a neighbourhood there can be many communities (even the cosy world of urban75 has a varied of communities with differing opinions). Wahaca has said they offer community spaces but to which of Brixton's communities? I'm sure they are open to all but what is the cost of using this space? Some community projects would not want to spend money on where they go to have a meeting or will find it odd that some of those attending a meeting in that space would not be able to afford to eat there.
> 
> People can offer facilities til they are blue in the face but if they are not of service to the local people or they don't make sure that the community know about them, they become redundant. I'm sure someone will use  their community spaces but you might just find it's more likely to be the wealthier newer members of Brixton than the more established communities (although of course not all over the established older community are poor or less wealthy than the new comers!)


I remember asking the developers of the Canterbury for details about how their vaguely proposed 'community space' may actually be used and who they expected to be using it. And their answers were much in line with your comments above.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 24, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Thaw - people use the word community as a feel good word to denote a neighbourhood where local residents all talk to each and have shared values. However as we are all aware within a neighbourhood there can be many communities (even the cosy world of urban75 has a varied of communities with differing opinions). Wahaca has said they offer community spaces but to which of Brixton's communities? I'm sure they are open to all but what is the cost of using this space? Some community projects would not want to spend money on where they go to have a meeting or will find it odd that some of those attending a meeting in that space would not be able to afford to eat there.
> 
> People can offer facilities til they are blue in the face but if they are not of service to the local people or they don't make sure that the community know about them, they become redundant. I'm sure someone will use  their community spaces but you might just find it's more likely to be the wealthier newer members of Brixton than the more established communities (although of course not all over the established older community are poor or less wealthy than the new comers!)



I recently filled in a survey instigated by an Urbanite about an excellent but sorely under-utilised community space local to me and what people really want from it. It will be interesting to hear what comes out of it. She has not posted on here for a couple of months.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2014)

Thaw said:


> 'space for community events' seems like a good enough definition.



Only if you find vagueness-to-the-point-of-incomprehensibility "good enough".
"Space for community events" could mean literally anything, including "you can use our broom cupboard once a year" or "we'll charge you 'mate rates' to hire our rooms, rather than the full wonga".


----------



## editor (Sep 26, 2014)

Just stumbled across these two pics from when Brady's was squatted some 13 years ago. They put on some really interesting events there for a while. 

  
isvicthere?


----------



## playghirl (Sep 26, 2014)

My second wedding party was in there, we left and were involved in a 6 car police chase up past a long queue at the fridge bar, we were caught up near The Windmill... We'll it is a long story...1997/1998 it was... My first wedding party/ reception was in The Queen, I host salubrious wedding, does I! Brixton, I love you!


----------



## teuchter (Sep 27, 2014)

editor said:


> Just stumbled across these two pics from when Brady's was squatted some 13 years ago. They put on some really interesting events there for a while.
> 
> View attachment 61648 View attachment 61649
> isvicthere?


Looks like hat-wearing was in.


----------



## playghirl (Sep 28, 2014)

I'd forgotten lit by candlelight. I'd go in in the morning in winter if I wasn't working and get warm by the little 3 bar radiator. Mid 90s!


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2014)

teuchter said:


> Looks like hat-wearing was in.


That'll be because it was cold.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 28, 2014)

That second one looks pretty hipsterish to me. But if it was 10+ years ago maybe they were ahead of the curve


----------



## teuchter (Sep 28, 2014)

The last thing you'd find in a nineties squat is young people wearing consciously alternative outfits. All clothing and accessories were 100% functional.


----------



## editor (Sep 28, 2014)

teuchter said:


> The last thing you'd find in a nineties squat is young people wearing consciously alternative outfits. All clothing and accessories were 100% functional.


What are you on about, please? I know it's bound to be something sneery and condescending, but this latest post from you seems particularly bizarre.


----------



## boohoo (Sep 28, 2014)

teuchter said:


> The last thing you'd find in a nineties squat is young people wearing consciously alternative outfits. All clothing and accessories were 100% functional.



Yes - a raggedy edged jumper was suitable for vomiting over after over indulging. Totally functional.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 28, 2014)

The curly hat looks very cosy.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2014)

Its great to see the building coming to life again, but it looks nothing like the original Brady's at all, so I've no idea where these 'original features' are. 

More: http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/10/...-bradys-pub-as-wahaca-chain-prepares-to-open/


----------



## Winot (Oct 1, 2014)

editor said:


> Its great to see the building coming to life again, but it looks nothing like the original Brady's at all, so I've no idea where these 'original features' are.



In the Prince Albert?


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2014)

Winot said:


> In the Prince Albert?








The old pub A-board was only briefly stored at the Albert after the eviction of Rushcroft Road. Fair breaks my 'eart to see, it it does






I'm guessing Wahaca will just shove up one of these somewhere and bang on about keeping the heritage alive or summat.


----------



## T & P (Oct 1, 2014)

editor said:


> Its great to see the building coming to life again, but it looks nothing like the original Brady's at all, so I've no idea where these 'original features' are.
> 
> More: http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/10/...-bradys-pub-as-wahaca-chain-prepares-to-open/


Maybe they meant the floor and walls 

ETA: Actually, those are new, so strike that off. Perhaps it's the shape of the building.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 1, 2014)

I have heard that they are planning a Brady's Burrito and and a Clash Caipirinha.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I have heard that they are planning a Brady's Burrito and and a Clash Caipirinha.


Wouldn't it simply be _divine_ if the well heeled folks from the edgily named Brady's block in Brixton Square could toodle across to Wahaca and enjoy a Brady's Burrito? That would work on so many levels of nu-coolness.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 1, 2014)

editor said:


> Wouldn't it simply be _divine_ if the well heeled folks from the edgily named Brady's block in Brixton Square could toodle across to Wahaca and enjoy a Brady's Burrito? That would work on so many levels of nu-coolness.


Washed down with a Hendrix and Tonic.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 1, 2014)

Just walked past, it looks awful. Such a shame, I wish they'd been obliged to retain more of the character of the building.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2014)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Just walked past, it looks awful. Such a shame, I wish they'd been obliged to retain more of the character of the building.


The interior has been completely ripped out. It could be one of countless trendy bar/restaurants anywhere in the UK, such is the total removal of any character or original features.


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## leanderman (Oct 2, 2014)

http://www.brixtonblog.com/wahaca-the-chains-reaction/24817

(Owners interviewed)


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

leanderman said:


> http://www.brixtonblog.com/wahaca-the-chains-reaction/24817
> 
> (Owners interviewed)


Reads like an advertorial.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

The multi million business is doing awfully well too.



> The Thomasina Miers & Mark Selby Mexican restaurant group Wahaca, has seen its turnover rise 54% as its profits increase more than sevenfold as it posted its latest annual accounts.The group, which currently has 12 locations around London, was founded in 2008 and recorded a turnover of nearly £22.5m for the 53 weeks to 31 June 2013. Meanwhile, pre-tax profits were up from just over £60,000 in 2011/12 to nearly £417,000 for 2012/13.
> http://www.binghamandjones.co.uk/#!...ca/c1um4/5E53E9C3-D438-4D58-9C54-91FAD6A8DCEF


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## Winot (Oct 2, 2014)

Let's hope their profits go through the floor then and they go out of business and stop employing people. That way we can get Bradys back to what it used to be.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

Winot said:


> Let's hope their profits go through the floor then and they go out of business and stop employing people. That way we can get Bradys back to what it used to be.


What a strange comment.


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## Rushy (Oct 2, 2014)

Regular financial tit bits are a great way of attracting new readers to Urban who would normally only have time for a cursory 10 minutes perusing the FT in between deals. A kind of Brixton Reuters or Bloomberg, as it were. Good work!


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## Biscuits (Oct 2, 2014)

So profits of £417,000 spread over 12 sites would mean each restaurant averaging £34,750 in profit a year - or have I got that wrong?


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Regular financial tit bits are a great way of attracting new readers to Urban who would normally only have time for a cursory 10 minutes perusing the FT in between deals. A kind of Brixton Reuters or Bloomberg, as it were. Good work!


Who's been posting up "regular financial tit bits"? Why, no one of course! It's just you acting like a silly billy again! 

Call me a crazy old cynic if you will, but when a business newly arrives in Brixton and immediately starts banging on about "the community," "social projects" and the area's "vibrant and ethical feel" then I think it's only right that people shouldn't take it all on face value.

And given their multi million turnover, the first question to ask is, "will they be paying the London Living Wage?"


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

Biscuits said:


> So profits of £417,000 spread over 12 sites would mean each restaurant averaging £34,750 in profit a year - or have I got that wrong?


That's for the last financial year. 


> *Wahaca reports 40% rise in profits*
> 
> Mexican restaurant group, Wahaca has announced that turnover grew more than 40% to £22,497,016 in the 53 weeks ended 30 June 2013, up from £14,585,657 the year before.
> 
> The company, which operates 13 London restaurants, said that profit before finance charges rose to £1,009,215 compared to £372,969 the year before. Pre-tax profit was an impressive £416,822 when compared to £60,474 for the previous year.- See more at: http://www.caterlyst.com/Caterlyst3/Insight/Insight.aspx


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## Biscuits (Oct 2, 2014)

I don’t see why it is much use looking at turnover. If the difference between a large restaurant running at a profit or loss is £34,000 per year then things are surely pretty razor tight as it is – something that a big rent review or increase in food costs could obliterate.
IMO if someone has opened 12 central London restaurants which employ so many people, which employ carpenters and contractors to fit them out, which employ producers and suppliers as well – then they fully deserve £400,000 profit – and a pat on the back; especially when so many restaurants go to the wall. It’s probable that they have to share that profit with investors.
Attack people who make money by doing nothing, like buy to letters – people like this should be taxed & celebrated - not sneered at.


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## leanderman (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> That's for the last financial year.



The girl done good.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

Biscuits said:


> I don’t see why it is much use looking at turnover. If the difference between a large restaurant running at a profit or loss is £34,000 per year then things are surely pretty razor tight as it is – something that a big rent review or increase in food costs could obliterate.
> IMO if someone has opened 12 central London restaurants which employ so many people, which employ carpenters and contractors to fit them out, which employ producers and suppliers as well – then they fully deserve £400,000 profit – and a pat on the back; especially when so many restaurants go to the wall. It’s probable that they have to share that profit with investors.
> Attack people who make money by doing nothing, like buy to letters – people like this should be taxed & celebrated - not sneered at.


I didn't think I was attacking them, I was just adding more detail to the story. I'm delighted that the building is being used again and if it provides employment for local people, all the better.

But my eyebrow does instinctively rise when a multi million chain freshly rock ups into town and immediately starts going about their supposed commitment to the 'community' because, frankly, I've heard that a million times before and it's often nothing more than lip service (see: Brixton Green).

So while I'm happy to see the building coming to life that doesn't mean it should be uncritically celebrated, nor should questions not be asked about what community it is that they're serving. I'd be particularly interested to hear if they have a commitment to the London Living Wage too.

And, for the record, they've never approached urban75 or Brixton Buzz which are most likely the two biggest Brixton sites around, so I guess we're not included in their community vision.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2014)

Biscuits said:


> I don’t see why it is much use looking at turnover. If the difference between a large restaurant running at a profit or loss is £34,000 per year then things are surely pretty razor tight as it is – something that a big rent review or increase in food costs could obliterate.



Overhead increases get factored into price increases. "Obliteration" seldom happens with outlets once they're established.



> IMO if someone has opened 12 central London restaurants which employ so many people, which employ carpenters and contractors to fit them out, which employ producers and suppliers as well – then they fully deserve £400,000 profit – and a pat on the back; especially when so many restaurants go to the wall. It’s probable that they have to share that profit with investors.



Let's take your employment claims and reduce them to the actual volume of work provided.
Employees - full-time and/or part-time work for _X_ number of employees.
Contractors - one-off employment for _X_ number of employees.
Producers and suppliers - demand from shop or chain is a small part of overall operation, so probably provides 3-4 hours' work for 1 picker/delivery person per week.
All very normal, and the effect on employment is minimal.

None of the above means that the parent company *deserves* to make a profit, *or* a pat on the back. It's a business, not a foundation for you to give the investors a reach-around for being capitalists.



> Attack people who make money by doing nothing, like buy to letters – people like this should be taxed & celebrated - not sneered at.



_Zu befehl, Kommandant!_.

On second thoughts, I'll attack whoever I like, especially if I believe that they're exploitative and/or are attempting cash in on the _cachet_ of an area they haven't previously stirred their arses to care about.


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## snowy_again (Oct 2, 2014)

But at the same time it is feasible to be very active in the local Brixton community and have no awareness of either U75 or BB.


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## Biscuits (Oct 2, 2014)

That’s all fair enough – maybe they are just paying lip service – I haven’t had your experience with this sort of thing so you are better placed to comment. (IMO in the case of Wahaca, the fact that they are providing employment and paying business rates to the Council is a pretty positive already).
I just think that the minimum wage should be raised to LLW levels. If electricity or the cost of tortillas goes up then businesses just have to lump it. If you can’t afford to pay people to live a decent life then you can’t afford to employ people IMO.
On the other hand if they indeed do only make £34,000 profit on average a restaurant then they are in a very different position to Cineworld and perhaps shouldn’t be the first up against the wall.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> But at the same time it is feasible to be very active in the local Brixton community and have no awareness of either U75 or BB.


I think it would be _nearly impossible_ to not to be aware of urban75 or B Buzz if you're
(a) capable of using Google and (b) have extensively researched Brady's and made claims about its heritage and history.


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## Dan U (Oct 2, 2014)

Turnover for vanity 
Profit for sanity

Or something.

Surprised it's not more per site i must admit but am sure when they sell up eventually they won't care


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## Dan U (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> And, for the record, they've never approached urban75 or Brixton Buzz which are most likely the two biggest Brixton sites around, so I guess we're not included in their community vision.



They'd be absolutely bonkers to.

If I was opening a business in Brixton that didn't fit your tightly defined template of acceptable, which is easy to work out, I wouldn't come near your websites. Why bother with the hassle


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## Rushy (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> Who's been posting up "regular financial tit bits"? Why, no one of course! It's just you acting like a silly billy again!
> 
> Call me a crazy old cynic if you will, but when a business newly arrives in Brixton and immediately starts banging on about "the community," "social projects" and the area's "vibrant and ethical feel" then I think it's only right that people shouldn't take it all on face value.
> 
> And given their multi million turnover, the first question to ask is, "will they be paying the London Living Wage?"


Unlike that cynical oaf Winot who jumped to the knee jerk conclusion that you were cocking a sneer, I just assumed that you were providing the information on face value and thought it was a good idea. Seems I was wrong too.
Silly billy me indeed.


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## leanderman (Oct 2, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Unlike that cynical oaf Winot who jumped to the knee jerk conclusion that you were cocking a sneer, I just assumed that you were providing the information on face value and thought it was a good idea. Seems I was wrong too.
> Silly billy me indeed.



Post 891 makes the Editor's position quite clear!

''Wouldn't it simply be divine if the well heeled folks from the edgily named Brady's block in Brixton Square could toodle across to Wahaca and enjoy a Brady's Burrito? That would work on so many levels of nu-coolness''


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## Dan U (Oct 2, 2014)

Can't for a minute think why the PR people from Wahaca haven't been in touch.


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## Rushy (Oct 2, 2014)

Dan U said:


> They'd be absolutely bonkers to.
> 
> If I was opening a business in Brixton that didn't fit your tightly defined template of acceptable, which is easy to work out, I wouldn't come near your websites. Why bother with the hassle


Easy at first sight - until someone points out that


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## Rushy (Oct 2, 2014)

Biscuits said:


> I don’t see why it is much use looking at turnover. If the difference between a large restaurant running at a profit or loss is £34,000 per year then things are surely pretty razor tight as it is – something that a big rent review or increase in food costs could obliterate.


The profit may take account of income being reinvested in new restaurants opening. 



> IMO if someone has opened 12 central London restaurants which employ so many people, which employ carpenters and contractors to fit them out, which employ producers and suppliers as well – then they fully deserve £400,000 profit – and a pat on the back; especially when so many restaurants go to the wall. It’s probable that they have to share that profit with investors.
> Attack people who make money by doing nothing, like buy to letters – people like this should be taxed & celebrated - not sneered at.


I was talking to a guy in the Charlotte Street one last week. I was abit tiddly but I seem to recall him saying that they have something like 60 people working all day in their kitchen there (they do a lot of the prep for the other sites).


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

Dan U said:


> They'd be absolutely bonkers to.
> 
> If I was opening a business in Brixton that didn't fit your tightly defined template of acceptable, which is easy to work out, I wouldn't come near your websites. Why bother with the hassle


Where do you find this "tightly defined template of acceptable" on Brixton Buzz please?


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## Rushy (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> Where do you find this "tightly defined template of acceptable" on Brixton Buzz please?


By only mentioning Brixton Buzz, are you conceding that a tightly defined template of acceptable exists on U75?


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## elmpp (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> Where do you find this "tightly defined template of acceptable" on Brixton Buzz please?


I'm so tired of your sneer->mock disbelief at reaction->denial->victimisation spiel. Leanderman quite clearly quoted your stance


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

Rushy said:


> By only mentioning Brixton Buzz, are you conceding that a tightly defined template of acceptable exists on U75?


I have opinions and express them honestly, just like everyone else can here - and does.

Given the amount of disagreements and debate that goes on here, it would be absolutely stupid to declare there was any kind of 'tightly defined template of acceptable' about most matters.

Now, about Brixton Buzz....


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

elmpp said:


> I'm so tired of your sneer->mock disbelief at reaction->denial->victimisation spiel. Leanderman quite clearly quoted your stance


Actually, I was running with a joke that had already been posted, but don't let that spoilt your cod indignation. 

Still, at least this time you managed more than a one-word moronic utterance though, so things are looking up.


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## Dan U (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> Where do you find this "tightly defined template of acceptable" on Brixton Buzz please?


It's got a different purpose obviously but it's still you

You are absolutely entitled to your views but sometimes you come across as a self appointed arbiter of what is acceptable and what isn't in Brixton

It's not hard to see why businesses don't always beat a path to this particular community


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

Dan U said:


> It's got a different purpose obviously but it's still you
> 
> You are absolutely entitled to your views but sometimes you come across as a self appointed arbiter of what is acceptable and what isn't in Brixton
> 
> It's not hard to see why businesses don't always beat a path to this particular community


Except it's not. There's loads of writers posting up stuff, all with their own opinions.

Now why don't you back up your accusations and show me where we've been so _unbelievably beastly_ to Wahaca that their only option is to turn their back on the most popular Brixton website?

Can you do that please?


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## boohoo (Oct 2, 2014)

It's whether brand urban75 and brand brixtonbuzz fit with brand wahaca.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

boohoo said:


> It's whether brand urban75 and brand brixtonbuzz fit with brand wahaca.


For sure, and that's just fine. But it gets a bit tricky when brand Wahaca is loudly throwing around their 'community' credentials and bigging up how they 'design they business to suit the local area'.

In fact, that article says that they were aware of the reaction that they may get, so I would have thought the best way to handle that was to face it head on rather than just ignoring any elements of the community who aren't enthusiastically applauding their every move. 

And this notion of urban75 being some sort of forbidding mono-thought clique is embarrassingly silly. People are free to express whatever they like here. My opinion carries no more weight that anyone else's and it should be what's being said that matters, not the tedious personal swipes.


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## Rushy (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> I have opinions and express them honestly, just like everyone else can here - and does.
> 
> Given the amount of disagreements and debate that goes on here, it would be absolutely stupid to declare there was any kind of 'tightly defined template of acceptable' about most matters.
> 
> Now, about Brixton Buzz....


I agree that the sneering is toned down slightly on Brixton Buzz.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> Except it's not. There's loads of writers posting up stuff, all with their own opinions.
> 
> Now why don't you back up your accusations and show me where we've been so _unbelievably beastly_ to Wahaca that their only option is to turn their back on the most popular Brixton website?
> 
> Can you do that please?



that is missing my point totally.

i haven't said what you are asking me to back up, my point was about your general tone towards businesses you don't like.

it's not worth the hassle of engaging with this website and increasingly Buzz is quite editorial.

fwiw I often agree with you but if i was opening a business i would give you a wide berth, it's an absolute lose/lose


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I agree that the sneering is toned down slightly on Brixton Buzz.


If you want opinion-less, pussy-footing advertorials I'm sure there's other sites who will serve up 'news' in that fashion or you.

If you've got a beef with what's been written on B Buzz, use the comments box there rather than sneering here.


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## Rushy (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> If you want opinion-less, pussy-footing advertorials I'm sure there's other sites who will serve up 'news' in that fashion or you.
> 
> If you've got a beef with what's been written on B Buzz use the comments box there rather than sneering here.



There you go. You specifically asked me whether I thought Buzz had a tightly defined template of acceptability. I answered. And then you - Editor and mod -  tell me to fuck off and post it somewhere else. 



editor said:


> People are free to express whatever they like here.


 My arse!


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

Rushy said:


> There you go. You specifically asked me whether I thought Buzz had a tightly defined template of acceptability. I answered. And then you - Editor and mod -  tell me to fuck off and post it somewhere else.
> 
> My arse!


By Christ, you're deceitful. How many posts of yours have I deleted or edited recently?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> By Christ, you're deceitful. How many posts of yours have I deleted or edited recently?


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## boohoo (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> For sure, and that's just fine. But it gets a bit tricky when brand Wahaca is loudly throwing around their 'community' credentials and bigging up how they 'design they business to suit the local area'.
> 
> In fact, that article says that they were aware of the reaction that they may get, so I would have thought the best way to handle that was to face it head on rather than just ignoring any elements of the community who aren't enthusiastically applauding their every move.


it might be about who they think the community is - and they might have decided that as it stands, the urban75 and Brixton buzz readers are not the community they want to appeal to.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

Rushy said:


>


Yes, the answer is *none*. No posts of your have been edited or deleted.

So you are indeed free to express what you like*, and do so on an daily basis, and to imply otherwise is deeply dishonest and disruptive. Please stop.

*within the rules that apply to everyone


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

boohoo said:


> it might be about who they think the community is - and they might have decided that as it stands, the urban75 and Brixton buzz readers are not the community they want to appeal to.


I could maybe see the urban75 bit - even though there is nothing like a unified opinion being expressed here - but I'm failing to see why they would not want to engage with Brixton Buzz, given its huge local popularity. 

It's not like they've been slagged off there at all. In fact, their restaurant has had more coverage there than anywhere else in the past two months.


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## Rushy (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> Yes, the answer is *none*. No p[osts of your have been edited or deleted.
> 
> So you are indeed free to express what you like*, and do so on an daily basis, and to imply otherwise is deeply dishonest and disruptive. Please stop.
> 
> *within the rules that apply to everyone


So now I'm dishonest and _disruptive _for face palming you. 
Oh and - er - isn't being _disruptive _a banning offence? 
And didn't you just add a _little reminder to stay within the rules_.

Free to post what I like... honest!


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

Rushy said:


> So now I'm dishonest and _disruptive _for face palming you.
> Oh and - er - isn't being _disruptive _a banning offence?
> And didn't you just add a _little reminder to stay within the rules_.
> 
> Free to post what I like... honest!


I don't much care for your childish personal vendettas so please now try and stay on topic. This thread is about Brady's/Wahaca. Thanks.


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## Rushy (Oct 2, 2014)

editor said:


> I don't much care for your childish personal vendettas so please now try and stay on topic. This thread is about Brady's/Wahaca. Thanks.



Sorry Ed, but a moderator asked me what I thought of Brixton Buzz and I said it was slightly less sneery than U75 and he didn't like that. My bad.


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## elmpp (Oct 2, 2014)

Certainly been getting a bit heavy with the moderation as of late. I can attest


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## SpamMisery (Oct 2, 2014)

Who gives a monkeys; it's a new business, good luck to them.


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## boohoo (Oct 2, 2014)

SpamMisery  - you are mister Victorian heritage - what do you think of the paint job on the outside?


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## leanderman (Oct 2, 2014)

boohoo said:


> it might be about who they think the community is - and they might have decided that as it stands, the urban75 and Brixton buzz readers are not the community they want to appeal to.



They might have decided Urban 75 is not at all representative


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## SarfLondoner (Oct 2, 2014)

I have often seen Urban 75 described as an"e zine for anarchists and activists"  i dont think it fits the criteria for their desired patron.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

leanderman said:


> They might have decided Urban 75 is not at all representative


So it's just the same old meaningless PR fluff, then.


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## Winot (Oct 2, 2014)

Here's an idea - why don't we see how the 'community' stuff pans out and *then* decide how they measure up?


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## SpamMisery (Oct 2, 2014)

boohoo said:


> SpamMisery  - you are mister Victorian heritage - what do you think of the paint job on the outside?



Ha! A bit quirky, but paint jobs aren't forever. But then  I quite liked the bright yellow iPhone add above Iceland


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## editor (Oct 2, 2014)

Winot said:


> Here's an idea - why don't we see how the 'community' stuff pans out and *then* decide how they measure up?


Seems to be stalling on the first hurdle, no?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 2, 2014)

Which is..?


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## Winot (Oct 2, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Which is..?



Contacting Urban75 and asking for their blessing. Not that there is such a *thing* as Urban75 of course.


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## Rushy (Oct 2, 2014)

Winot said:


> Contacting Urban75 and asking for their blessing.


Amateurs.


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## editor (Oct 3, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Which is..?


Going on and on about being "conscious" about fitting in with "Brixton’s vibe or community" and wanting "to avoid a debate on arrogant big brands entering a community" but then doing _exactly that_ by being completely selective about who they actually talk to.


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## editor (Oct 3, 2014)

Winot said:


> Contacting Urban75 and asking for their blessing. Not that there is such a *thing* as Urban75 of course.


The many different posters who make up urban75 are only one voice of many in the community, but it's every bit as representative/non-representative as, for example, Number 6 Somerleyton Road, who they've elected to deal with.


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## Boudicca (Oct 3, 2014)

If I was starting up a new business in Brixton, there is no way I would go anywhere near urban75 to promote it - it's just too risky.


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## newbie (Oct 3, 2014)

I'm finding this conversation about 'community' and branding and that a bit jarring tbh.  

That building is obviously prominent and important.  It was the Railway for 100 years or more and formed a centrally important part of Brixton life. Certainly in its latter years it was for all sorts of different groups who rubbed shoulders and drank in there, in the days when the local was a very important part of communication rather than simply for socialising amongst peers.  

Then for whatever reason it metamorphosed into a trendies pub and changed its branding to reflect that, in much the same way the Atlantic became the Dogstar, the Canning turned into whatever its called now, the Hope... and so on, all aimed at much the same, rather narrow, demographic, part of that phase of gentrification.  

Then a very few years later it was gone, that incarnation as fleetingly irrelevant as (I had to look this up) Babushka.  Except to 'the community' as represented hereabouts, for whom 'Bradys' seems to have mythological status as an exemplar brand of some sort.

None of which matters, of course, but maybe some perspective could be applied when getting precious about these things.


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## snowy_again (Oct 3, 2014)

editor said:


> I think it would be _nearly impossible_ to not to be aware of urban75 or B Buzz if you're
> (a) capable of using Google and (b) have extensively researched Brady's and made claims about its heritage and history.



I've worked in several Brixton and non Brixton based volunteering / service providing / development / voluntary sector organisations. 

Many of them firewalled access to U75. 

And many people continue to do community development work without using the internet at all; I'm sure statistics on digital exclusion have been posted on these threads before.


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## Rushy (Oct 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Going on and on about being "conscious" about fitting in with "Brixton’s vibe or community" and wanting "to avoid a debate on arrogant big brands entering a community" but then doing _exactly that_ by being completely selective about who they actually talk to.





editor said:


> The many different posters who make up urban75 are only one voice of many in the community, but it's every bit as representative/non-representative as, for example, Number 6 Somerleyton Road, who they've elected to deal with.




_
"Mother, those nasty new kids don't want to play my games and
have been hanging out at No.6 instead. Why won't anyone tell those 
arseholes just how representative of The Community I am?"_​


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> I've worked in several Brixton and non Brixton based volunteering / service providing / development / voluntary sector organisations.
> 
> Many of them firewalled access to U75.
> 
> And many people continue to do community development work without using the internet at all; I'm sure statistics on digital ex_clusion have been posted on these threads before._


_
Wait, are you _seriously trying to construct an argument that no one from Wahaca has seen, heard or ever accessed Brixton Buzz or urban75 via any device or  network? Type in Brixton or Brixton Bradys into Google search or news and take a look-see at what comes up.


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## editor (Oct 3, 2014)

Boudicca said:


> If I was starting up a new business in Brixton, there is no way I would go anywhere near urban75 to promote it - it's just too risky.


I cant say I'm bothered if they do or don't, so it's all good. The site wasn't set up to advertise and promote business chains.


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## snowy_again (Oct 3, 2014)

No, I'm saying that many people aren't aware that U75 exists, and then lots of people can't access the site via a work server.  

My comments had nothing in particular to do with Wahaca / Brady's.


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## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2014)

editor said:


> _Wait, are you _seriously trying to construct an argument that no one from Wahaca has seen, heard or ever accessed Brixton Buzz or urban75 via any device or  network?



I think the argument is more along the lines that _everyone_ at Wahaca will not have seen or heard of your websites and of those that have, many won't care about them or will actively avoid them.


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## teuchter (Oct 3, 2014)

Maybe urban75 needs some input from a rebranding consultant?


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## editor (Oct 3, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> I think the argument is more along the lines that _everyone_ at Wahaca will not have seen or heard of your websites and of those that have, many won't care about them or will actively avoid them.


I'm still trying to work out exactly why they would seek to avoid Brixton Buzz given (a) its huge popularity and (b) the fact they've received more publicity there than anywhere else.

In their interview they say that, "We’ve read a lot about the recent new openings and new concepts that people living in the area don’t feel fit with Brixton’s vibe or community" - and here's the crucial bit: 


> *But while others have avoided the debate by simply ignoring it* – often at their peril – Mark and co-founder Tommi Miers have been drawing up a menu of community engagement that they hope will set them apart.


So where is this debate taking place?


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## editor (Oct 3, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> No, I'm saying that many people aren't aware that U75 exists, and then lots of people can't access the site via a work server.
> 
> My comments had nothing in particular to do with Wahaca / Brady's.


I've no doubt that some people can't access the site via a server when they're at work, but I'm not sure what relevance it has here unless you believe that no one from Wahaca has ever been able to access any part of Brixton Buzz or urban75 at any point.


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## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2014)

editor said:


> So where is this debate taking place?



Elsewhere I assume. Unless U75/BB are the only places where such debate is to be had?

Chances are that Wahaca have business advisors (great guys  ) or switched-on directors who have read and anticipated the tone of your piece on BB (which links to here), taken a look at the Brixton forum and its often Nimby, agenda-driven nature, and have sensibly advised the Wahaca guys to stay the fuck away from your sites.

You just don't feature in their plans, and discourse with you would almost certainly be counterproductive to their aims. Business-wise, the upside of conversing here is severely limited, whilst the potential downside is enormous (see OTC).

Disappointing for you I'm sure, that the owners of Wahaca seem a lot more savvy than Jennie. Whodathoughtit? 

Any new business-people thinking about setting up in Brixton, whose target markets or business models aren't_ 'Urban75 Approved'_, would have to be on mind-bending drugs to engage with your websites!

Turkeys don't vote for Xmas and Wahaca *really don't need *U75/Brixton Buzz approval to fill their restaurants (even though they're shite, imo).


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## Rushy (Oct 3, 2014)

editor said:


> I'm still trying to work out exactly why they would seek to avoid Brixton Buzz given (a) its huge popularity and (b) the fact they've received more publicity there than anywhere else.
> 
> In their interview they say that, "We’ve read a lot about the recent new openings and new concepts that people living in the area don’t feel fit with Brixton’s vibe or community" - and here's the crucial bit:
> 
> So where is this debate taking place?


Where do they say they are involved in the debate? They say that they have read the debates, listened to the arguments and chosen a route forward which they hope navigates the very polar opinions of people who feel strongly about Brixton. I'm sure that they are under no illusions that they can please everybody.


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## Rollem (Oct 3, 2014)

ha-ha! Came on here to find out what everyone thought about Wahacca opening up

Leave knowing that nothing in the world of U75 has changed that much....


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## leanderman (Oct 3, 2014)

editor said:


> I'm failing to see why they would not want to engage with Brixton Buzz, given its huge local popularity.



You shouldn't believe what you read in the Mail!


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2014)

Dan U said:


> They'd be absolutely bonkers to.
> 
> If I was opening a business in Brixton that didn't fit your tightly defined template of acceptable, which is easy to work out, I wouldn't come near your websites. Why bother with the hassle



Well, it'd only be a bad move if such a business had no capability to defend itself, and was actually guilty of any (tightly defined) unacceptability?
And isn't all publicity supposed to be good publicity?


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Post 891 makes the Editor's position quite clear!
> 
> ''Wouldn't it simply be divine if the well heeled folks from the edgily named Brady's block in Brixton Square could toodle across to Wahaca and enjoy a Brady's Burrito? That would work on so many levels of nu-coolness''



I do hope you're not claiming to have never indulged in the odd fit of sarcasm yourself!


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## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, it'd only be a bad move if such a business had no capability to defend itself ...



.... or no need, Veeps.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2014)

elmpp said:


> I'm so tired of your sneer->mock disbelief at reaction->denial->victimisation spiel. Leanderman quite clearly quoted your stance



I'm fairly wearied by the fact that your posts are never anything except tedious sniping at a handful of posters.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> .... or no need, Veeps.



Be honest, since when has there been a case where business has had "no need" to defend itself, Spy?
While I'm not a member of the "guilty until proved innocent" school, I do think that there's an issue in areas like Brixton of new businesses/the turnover of new businesses disrupting locales. Sure, I know it's part of "regeneration" (as the planners like to call it), but it sits a bit hard, especially when you're aware that some of the people cheerleading this "regeneration" are in it not only for the locale, but for the padding of their own pockets.


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## madolesance (Oct 3, 2014)

Anyone been to Blaka Jacks yet? Heard it's pretty good.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Elsewhere I assume. Unless U75/BB are the only places where such debate is to be had?
> 
> Chances are that Wahaca have business advisors (great guys  ) or switched-on directors who have read and anticipated the tone of your piece on BB (which links to here), taken a look at the Brixton forum and its often Nimby, agenda-driven nature, and have sensibly advised the Wahaca guys to stay the fuck away from your sites.
> 
> ...



Business advisors - almost as low as estate agents, and as parasitic as mistletoe.


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## Spymaster (Oct 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Business advisors - ******* as parasitic as mistletoe.



 Yep.


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## Spymaster (Oct 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Be honest, since when has there been a case where business has had "no need" to defend itself, Spy? While I'm not a member of the "guilty until proved innocent" school, I do think that there's an issue in areas like Brixton of new businesses/the turnover of new businesses disrupting locales. Sure, I know it's part of "regeneration" (as the planners like to call it), but it sits a bit hard, especially when you're aware that some of the people cheerleading this "regeneration" are in it not only for the locale, but for the padding of their own pockets



Most businesses, particularly local retail outfits, don't survive if they're not popular. Wahaca know full well that there's a demographic in Brixton who'll be knocking their door down. What they have "no need" to do is to come onto seriously hostile websites to attempt to justify their existence or expansion. 

On the rest of your point, this is a restaurant renovating and occupying a long disused and rotting premises, not some mobile phone shop pushing out a traditional high street business. Sure they're in it for the money, most businesses are, but it's not like it won't be used by locals.


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## Mr Retro (Oct 4, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> The thing with most businesses, particularly local retail outfits, is that if people don't use them they don't survive. Wahaca know full well that there's a demographic in Brixton who'll be knocking their door down


If it's as good as the original was when I tried it years ago I'll eat there a lot. Really good reasonably priced Mexican food? Yes please.


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## leanderman (Oct 4, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Most businesses, particularly local retail outfits, don't survive if they're not popular. Wahaca know full well that there's a demographic in Brixton who'll be knocking their door down.



Yet, at the same time, Casa Morita, which was set up by locals, is to pull back from the Mexican food side and become a bar - or so I was told.


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## Winot (Oct 4, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Wahaca know full well that there's a demographic in Brixton who'll be knocking their door down.



Now there's an ambiguous statement!

Walked past today and had my first proper look at the paint job. Looks pretty dreadful to me, and unnecessary. They should have let the building speak for itself.

That said, it's great that the building is finally being put to use and I'm sure that corner will be improved as a result.


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## Ms T (Oct 4, 2014)

It's nearly finished by the looks of it.  They were working on it last night when I went past at around 8.30 on my way home from work, and this morning at 7am (on my way to work (((me)))).


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 4, 2014)

Spymaster said:


> Most businesses, particularly local retail outfits, don't survive if they're not popular. Wahaca know full well that there's a demographic in Brixton who'll be knocking their door down.



Because their business advisors told them so? 



> What they have "no need" to do is to come onto seriously hostile websites to attempt to justify their existence or expansion.



Good job no-one is asking them to, then, as wondering why them don't interact isn't quite the same as desiring them to "justify" themselves.



> On the rest of your point, this is a restaurant renovating and occupying a long disused and rotting premises, not some mobile phone shop pushing out a traditional high street business. Sure they're in it for the money, most businesses are, but it's not like it won't be used by locals.


That depends on what you mean by "locals", frankly. If you mean the core long-term residents of the area, then many of them probably won't be indulging in Wahaca's _faux_-Mexicano "dining experience".  If you're talking about recent incomers who have money to spare on dining out, then of course they will - it's just another indicator of how "vibrant" the place they've moved to is, another notch that allows the property developers and other exploitative shitbags to ratchet up prices.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 4, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Yet, at the same time, Casa Morita, which was set up by locals, is to pull back from the Mexican food side and become a bar - or so I was told.



And I bet Casa Morita don't spell Oaxaca phonetically, either.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 4, 2014)

Winot said:


> Now there's an ambiguous statement!
> 
> Walked past today and had my first proper look at the paint job. Looks pretty dreadful to me, and unnecessary. They should have let the building speak for itself.
> 
> That said, it's great that the building is finally being put to use and I'm sure that corner will be improved as a result.



Unless someone accidentally drives into it and knocks the door down.


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## Spymaster (Oct 4, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Good job no-one is asking them to, then, as wondering why them don't interact isn't quite the same as desiring them to "justify" themselves.



Lol! Did you read the OTC thread? That's exactly what it became.



> And I bet Casa Morita don't spell Oaxaca phonetically, either.



That hadn't occurred to me.


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## editor (Oct 4, 2014)

Winot said:


> Now there's an ambiguous statement!
> 
> Walked past today and had my first proper look at the paint job. Looks pretty dreadful to me, and unnecessary. They should have let the building speak for itself.
> 
> That said, it's great that the building is finally being put to use and I'm sure that corner will be improved as a result.


I don't think anyone can disagree with that. It's nothing short of criminal the way that building was left empty for so long. Lambeth's conduct in this whole affair was disgraceful too.


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## editor (Oct 14, 2014)

So I took a look inside and could find no trace of anything that brought to mind any element of the old Brady's.

However - as if to rub our faces in it - they've put the name The Railway above the door. For a brief moment I thought they'd changed their minds and put the pub back.


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## ChrisSouth (Oct 15, 2014)

editor said:


> View attachment 62443
> 
> So I took a look inside and could find no trace of anything that brought to mind any element of the old Brady's.
> 
> However - as if to rub our faces in it - they've put the name The Railway above the door. For a brief moment I thought they'd changed their minds and put the pub back.


 
Nice picture. I think it does the refurb and the added vibrancy justice.


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## Winot (Oct 15, 2014)

editor said:


> View attachment 62443
> 
> So I took a look inside and could find no trace of anything that brought to mind any element of the old Brady's.
> 
> However - as if to rub our faces in it - they've put the name The Railway above the door. For a brief moment I thought they'd changed their minds and put the pub back.



So you don't like the lack of remnants inside and you don't like the presence of remnants outside?


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## editor (Oct 15, 2014)

Winot said:


> So you don't like the lack of remnants inside and you don't like the presence of remnants outside?


I don't like being fed BS.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 15, 2014)

I quite like the paint job and I'm glad the building is back in use, albeit not as a pub.

It was full of people the other day quaffing expensive-looking cocktails. 'Staff orientation' I guess. Opens tomorrow.

Thanks to whoever it was for the update about the yard round the back getting planning permission for a market. The gate was open the other day so I went in and had another look. It's quite big. I didn't realise the yard went all the way round on to Atlantic Road. The massive shutters on Atlantic Road (next to the 'Stones' household shop) is the other entrance:


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## Crispy (Oct 15, 2014)

In the Future Brixton masterplan, the idea is to link it up with Station Arcade to make a better interchange between tube and railway stations.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 15, 2014)

Crispy said:


> In the Future Brixton masterplan, the idea is to link it up with Station Arcade to make a better interchange between tube and railway stations.


Sensible idea, esp as there's a zebra crossing right there on Atlantic Road. 

But I thought they weren't going to open up the back entrance to the tube station again?


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## editor (Oct 15, 2014)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I quite like the paint job and I'm glad the building is back in use, albeit not as a pub.
> 
> It was full of people the other day quaffing expensive-looking cocktails. 'Staff orientation' I guess. Opens tomorrow.
> 
> Thanks to whoever it was for the update about the yard round the back getting planning permission for a market. The gate was open the other day so I went in and had another look. It's quite big. I didn't realise the yard went all the way round on to Atlantic Road. The massive shutters on Atlantic Road (next to the 'Stones' household shop) is the other entrance:


It is a big space. Aren't we getting some awful Hoxton style box park in there now?


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## editor (Oct 15, 2014)

Crispy said:


> In the Future Brixton masterplan, the idea is to link it up with Station Arcade to make a better interchange between tube and railway stations.


And if they could put back the old Station Arcade too we'd be on a real winner!


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## Crispy (Oct 15, 2014)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Sensible idea, esp as there's a zebra crossing right there on Atlantic Road.
> 
> But I thought they weren't going to open up the back entrance to the tube station again?


Aspirations dear boy, aspirations


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## Ol Nick (Oct 15, 2014)

So I went to a wahaca once. The one in Canary Wharf, you can probably read about it on canary75.org. Anyway I got some food, put some chilli sauce on it from a bottle, put the bottle down and ate my lunch. After a while I needed more sauce, so I picked up the bottle and, I promise, the fucking thing exploded all over my shirt. Didn't break the glass just covered me in yellow chilli sauce.

Obviously the waitress looked at me like it was my fault and it probably was. I have a tendency to accelerate natural fermentation rates I expect, but basically what I'm saying is don't imagine it's all going to be yuppie blandness when they open. They've got some bad boy sauce action going on down there.

Or have we moved on now?


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## snowy_again (Oct 15, 2014)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Sensible idea, esp as there's a zebra crossing right there on Atlantic Road.



That bit of road is dangerous for pedestrians, shoppers and basically anyone not in a car.  

There needs to be a second or alternative way of crossing. The existing zebra crossing is too far away from the train station exit for anyone to use it. All the commuters flood down towards the tube and cross at various points between the trainer shop and A&C deli. I see someone have a near accident almost every day.  Not helped by the traffic lights at the end having a tiny window of pedestrian crossing phased once every blue moon. 

If you going up Railton Road towards Herne Hill, the current Zebra crossing is almost hidden by the foundations to the steps and the platform, so you don't see people wanting to cross until you're right on the junction.


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## snowy_again (Oct 15, 2014)

And the pavements are too narrow, and they need fixing, and the road's full of potholes, and I'm not as young as I once was, and have you seen the price of coffee lately. I even bore myself sometimes.


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## colacubes (Oct 15, 2014)

I am going tonight for the soft launch so will report back 



editor said:


> It is a big space. Aren't we getting some awful Hoxton style box park in there now?
> 
> View attachment 62455



Yep.  The only good news is that it's only got permission for A1 so it won't be full of yet more food outlets.  



Crispy said:


> In the Future Brixton masterplan, the idea is to link it up with Station Arcade to make a better interchange between tube and railway stations.



It's only going to be open between 9am and 7pm so it won't be a cut through all day.  If it ever happens!


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## editor (Oct 15, 2014)

colacubes said:


> I am going tonight for the soft launch so will report back


You can't beat a soft launch.


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## passivejoe (Oct 15, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Yet, at the same time, Casa Morita, which was set up by locals, is to pull back from the Mexican food side and become a bar - or so I was told.



The one time I ate there, I thought the food was appalling and over priced. Tiny portions of blandness served tepid.


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## snowy_again (Oct 15, 2014)

And they make much more money running a bar than they do with serving food.


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## Ol Nick (Oct 15, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> And they make much more money running a bar than they do with serving food.


Good.Like old style pubs. Before the onset of exploding condiments.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 15, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> That bit of road is dangerous for pedestrians, shoppers and basically anyone not in a car.
> 
> There needs to be a second or alternative way of crossing. The existing zebra crossing is too far away from the train station exit for anyone to use it. All the commuters flood down towards the tube and cross at various points between the trainer shop and A&C deli. I see someone have a near accident almost every day.  Not helped by the traffic lights at the end having a tiny window of pedestrian crossing phased once every blue moon.
> 
> If you going up Railton Road towards Herne Hill, the current Zebra crossing is almost hidden by the foundations to the steps and the platform, so you don't see people wanting to cross until you're right on the junction.


Yep - zebra crossing should be moved up the road and a speed bump added. Lost count of the number of times I've been about to push Baby Hatter across the road and someone has caned it past at 30mph.


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## leanderman (Oct 28, 2014)

Artist on Brady's refit: http://www.tristanmanco.com/2014/10/28/wahaca-brixton-with-satone-roid/


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## editor (Oct 28, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Artist on Brady's refit: http://www.tristanmanco.com/2014/10/28/wahaca-brixton-with-satone-roid/


Nice bit of PR. I still don't like it much. The artwork in itself is pleasant enough in isolation, but the Dalston treatment just seems wrong for such an iconic Brixton building.


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## teuchter (Oct 28, 2014)

"curation role"


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## editor (Apr 26, 2017)

Remember this quote from Wahaca: 


> Once home to legendary gigs and sessions by Hendrix and The Clash, Wahaca Brixton will host regular DJ nights and spaces are available for local community events


Yeah, right.


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## John Scott (Nov 15, 2017)

I worked here in the early 80's. Had a great time working here..it was still The Railway Hotel
 Almost brings me to tears to see the run down state it is in now. From my time at the railway i moved to another Luke Brady pub just down road.. The Russell Hotel. Great times bk in the 80's. Shame they've both shut down. After leaving russell hotel in mid 80's i moved bk up to yorkshire. Has Luke Bradys ceased trading completely now??


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## John Scott (Nov 15, 2017)

Pat Breen said:


> ..Just came across this forum, I worked in Brady's in 1976 as a barman,it was a Brady house but I think it was called the Railway Arms if I remember rightly...The Kings Head in Merton was also a Brady house..Great memories of those times..


Just read your post on brixton forum. You say you worked in 'railway arms'..railway hotel in 76..how long did you work there for??? I worked there about 78/79 for a few years then moved down road to russell hotel around 1980ish. I think it was sean and his wife that was manager when i worked there and then bob the head barman and his wife took over when sean finished and i got made head barman. I vaguely remember someone called Pat working there when i was there but don't know if it was you.


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## happyshopper (Nov 20, 2017)

John Scott said:


> ... Has Luke Bradys ceased trading completely now??



Now running a fish and chip restaurant in Battersea.


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