# Spent Convictions?



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 20, 2012)

It's all gone a bit tits up for me for the work I had lined up over winter so tonight I'm a mission to apply for something so I've got somewhere to live next month. 

First one needs to be in for tomorrow and of course the old chesnut has come up. The application form say I need to have a CRB of course, but asks

*"At this stage however please detail any convictions that are not spent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act"*

Should I put down my cautions now is that something I need to talk about to someone later?


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 20, 2012)

i think cautions are spent as soon as you've got them.

one moment...

This says



> simple cautions, reprimands and final warnings become spent at the moment of issue
> 
> an adult or youth conditional caution will become spent after three months


 
does that answer the question?


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## Hollis (Sep 20, 2012)

Its also the case that cautions are not convictions.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 20, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i think cautions are spent as soon as you've got them.
> 
> one moment...
> 
> ...


 
Think so. Don't put it down right now...leaves the awkward moment in interview of course. Fuck knows what chance I've got at this anyway it's not in a field I've worked in before, but god I need something.


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## harpo (Sep 20, 2012)

NACRO probably has good advice.  Is it an enhanced or basic CRB you need?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 20, 2012)

Enchanced - They will show up without doubt. This is more about filling in the application form tonigh based on the question asked.


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## harpo (Sep 20, 2012)

It's strange that they have added the bit about unspent convictions if it's an enhanced check but I'd just follow the instruction and only provide the info on anything unspent.  That's what they've asked for.  'At this stage' seems to imply they'll ask for more info later if they need to.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 20, 2012)

Ta


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## mrs quoad (Sep 20, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Enchanced - They will show up without doubt. This is more about filling in the application form tonigh based on the question asked.


Yeah. Best declared.


harpo said:


> It's strange that they have added the bit about unspent convictions if it's an enhanced check but I'd just follow the instruction and only provide the info on anything unspent. That's what they've asked for. 'At this stage' seems to imply they'll ask for more info later if they need to.


They always do.

tbf, I was thrown off a social work course c.2002 for not declaring 2 cautions as 'unspent convictions,' when the application form'd only specified 'unspent convictions.' I've occasionally thought there's the potential for a lawsuit in that, but - then again - I'd been nicked in possession of magic mushrooms about the time I was thrown off, and was sectioned several times shortly thereafter. So probably wasn't in an awesome position to sort out a social work practice placement, anyhows


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 20, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Yeah. Best declared.


This.


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## harpo (Sep 20, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Yeah. Best declared.
> 
> They always do.
> 
> tbf, I was thrown off a social work course c.2002 for not declaring 2 cautions as 'unspent convictions,' when the application form'd only specified 'unspent convictions.' I've occasionally thought there's the potential for a lawsuit in that, but - then again - I'd been nicked in possession of magic mushrooms about the time I was thrown off, and was sectioned several times shortly thereafter. So probably wasn't in an awesome position to sort out a social work practice placement, anyhows


Ah.  I thought it might be that they only needed unspent stuff now.  Enhanced CRBs do show up everything but if that's what they need, it's odd they don't ask for it.  And yeah you'd think potentially legally challengeable.


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## Firky (Sep 20, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Enchanced - They will show up without doubt. This is more about filling in the application form tonigh based on the question asked.


 
Declare it.

My cautions showed up and at the time I was working with vulnerable adults with substance misuse history, and they didn't care. In fact most of the key workers seemed to have cautions or convictions.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 20, 2012)

harpo said:


> Ah. I thought it might be that they only needed unspent stuff now. Enhanced CRBs do show up everything but if that's what they need, it's odd they don't ask for it. And yeah you'd think potentially legally challengeable.


tbf, I think that some organisations are just a bit shit, and just draw generic wording from somewhere.

Maybe it's unspent convictions that *need* to be declared for whatever formal / legal reasons; but unspent convictions may play an informal role in yadda yadda etc?

e2a: having said that, I know that my old social work course lost approx. 2ish of 60ish people each year because of 'undeclared cautions.' There were - IIRC - 2 in my year, 3 in the year before.


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 20, 2012)

> "At this stage however please detail any convictions that are not spent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act"


 
suggests they are not interested in spent convictions.

without wanting you to go into great detail, is it a job that's specifically exempt from the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act?

an employer can't ask about / seek a CRB that includes spent convictions just because they feel like it, it has to be relevant to the job - usually the sort of thing that involves access to children / vulnerable people, although I think there's some bits of security / financial sector that are also exempt.

If the form is only asking for convictions that are not spent, and the cautions are the sort that are considered spent convictions, I don't see why the heck you should have to declare them.

Worth giving NACRO a ring in the morning?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 20, 2012)

Yeah - might as well put it down.

Really struggling with this, it's looking after young people in care setting, I'm sure I've got loads of transferable skills as my job doesn't just involve holding ropes for people, but I'm stuggling with the lack of the correct language without it just sounding like waffle.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 20, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Worth giving NACRO a ring in the morning?


 
It's got to be emailed tonight - I only saw the ad today and the closing date is tomorrow. Just done 12 hours at work after waking up to an email telling me that a job I'd been offered and was proper psyced for has been withdrawn. Probably not in the best frame of mind to complete this.


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## AKA pseudonym (Sep 20, 2012)

hmmm... perhaps different over here in the 6 counties... BUT i recieved a caution recently for 'pissing in the street' (it was an alleyway as it goes 
 I was told by the RUC women who issued it to me in the barracks... that Cautions stay permanently on your records after the Huntley/Soham debacle..... 
I was offered the op to contest it,,, but ffs, the local paper always report such stupity as 'indecent exposure'


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## ice-is-forming (Sep 20, 2012)

do you still have that resume i sent you with the right language in re youth residential/care?


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 20, 2012)

in that case, the post is quite possibly exempt from the rehabilitation act, so they ought to be asking you to declare convictions including spent convictions.

in which case, it's probably better to declare them...


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 20, 2012)

If it's an enhanced CRB you must declare everything. Everything shows up so if you leave anything out it looks like you're lying or hiding summat. The only convictions or cautions that will bar you are for anything sexual or anything violent.


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## Hollis (Sep 21, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> If it's an enhanced CRB you must declare everything. Everything shows up so if you leave anything out it looks like you're lying or hiding summat. The only convictions or cautions that will bar you are for anything sexual or anything violent.


 
Not if that's not what they're asking for.  They have only asked for spent convictions.  So they cannot say you're being 'dishonest' or 'lying'.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 21, 2012)

Does a fine for fare evasion show up on an enhanced CRB?


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 21, 2012)

Hollis said:


> Not if that's not what they're asking for. They have only asked for spent convictions. So they cannot say you're being 'dishonest' or 'lying'.


But they do. It's not clear that you must mention cautions, but do mention them. I don't know whether you've ever been involved in enhanced CRBs but I have, loads of times and I'm saying what the score is. Fine if you don't agree, but your assertion could result in someone not getting the job.


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 21, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Does a fine for fare evasion show up on an enhanced CRB?


 
if it was something that was not done through the criminal law, e.g. a 'penalty fare' or whatever it was called locally, then no - that is not legally a 'fine', it's a contractual payment under the terms and conditions of the transport operator which (even if you didn't know them) you accepted when you stepped on to the station / bus / whatever.

If it was a fine imposed by a court of law, then I'd have thought it probably would.  I can't see it being an issue for most things, though.


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## Thraex (Sep 21, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Enchanced - They will show up without doubt. This is more about filling in the application form tonigh based on the question asked.


 
How long ago were they? I always declare the two, minor, convictions for my enhanced check and, so far, they've always come back with absolutely no convictions  I reckon it was when thing went from paper to computer and they lost a shed load - remember the  Ian Huntley case; he had a number of convictions that didn't show up when he applied for the caretaker job


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## Orang Utan (Sep 21, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> if it was something that was not done through the criminal law, e.g. a 'penalty fare' or whatever it was called locally, then no - that is not legally a 'fine', it's a contractual payment under the terms and conditions of the transport operator which (even if you didn't know them) you accepted when you stepped on to the station / bus / whatever.
> 
> If it was a fine imposed by a court of law, then I'd have thought it probably would.  I can't see it being an issue for most things, though.


Oh shit.
It was a fine imposed by a court


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 21, 2012)

Thraex said:


> How long ago were they? I always declare the two, minor, convictions for my enhanced check and, so far, they've always come back with absolutely no convictions  I reckon it was when thing went from paper to computer and they lost a shed load - remember the Ian Huntley case; he had a number of convictions that didn't show up when he applied for the caretaker job


 
It depends.  Before CRB, a lot of the record keeping was down to individual police forces, and they worked to different standards.  Some did 'weed' records to get rid of very minor offences in the very distant past, some didn't.

It's also worth remembering that CRB's purpose is not to say "yes you should employ this person" or "no you should not employ this person" (unless that person is on the list of people specifically barred from working anywhere near children / vulnerable people) - it is for the potential employer to use their judgement.

But if you don't declare something, it will always put you in a worse position.

Although in educational circles, some of that judgement has been removed - until fairly recently, for example, someone in their 40s who got done for under age sex when he was 16 (with someone who was 15 3/4 at the time and who he married once she turned 18 and have been together ever since) would probably not be considered to be a risk to children.  Then the tabloids led with "sex offenders are still being allowed to work in our schools" and there was a panic...


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 21, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Oh shit.
> It was a fine imposed by a court


 
in that case, if it's an enhanced CRB you'd better declare it.  I wouldn't have thought there are many jobs that would rule you out of - I think you've mentioned working in schools on another thread.  I can't imagine they would give two hoots.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 21, 2012)

Thraex said:


> How long ago were they? I always declare the two, minor, convictions for my enhanced check and, so far, they've always come back with absolutely no convictions  I reckon it was when thing went from paper to computer and they lost a shed load - remember the Ian Huntley case; he had a number of convictions that didn't show up when he applied for the caretaker job


This enhanced CRB all came into being BECAUSE of Huntley.


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## Thraex (Sep 21, 2012)

Ah, thanks.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 21, 2012)

Thraex said:


> Ah, thanks.


It it had been around it would have shown all his arrests for dodginess around underage girls (for which he never got charged). The previous CRB system just showed unspent convictions.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 21, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> in that case, if it's an enhanced CRB you'd better declare it.  I wouldn't have thought there are many jobs that would rule you out of - I think you've mentioned working in schools on another thread.  I can't imagine they would give two hoots.


Oh shit.
Too late now.

That would explain why the charity I started volunteering for haven't replied to any of my emails. 
Does the CRB check come back as just a FAIL or PASS, or do they tell you the details of your offence?


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 21, 2012)

Thraex said:


> remember the Ian Huntley case; he had a number of convictions that didn't show up when he applied for the caretaker job


 
being pedantic, wasn't it that Ian Huntley had had a number of accusations made against him which didn't get as far as court / conviction because it boiled down to one person's word against another's. 

In theory, before CRB, a senior police officer could authorise the disclosure of such situations, but that didn't happen on this occasion.


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 21, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Oh shit.
> Too late now.
> 
> That would explain why the charity I started volunteering for haven't replied to any of my emails.
> Does the CRB check come back as just a FAIL or PASS, or do they tell you the details of your offence?


 
As I said before, unless someone is on whatever "list 99" is now called, the CRB do not say "yes" or "no".  They will either say "we have no record on this person" or "this person appears to have been convicted of X on Y date" (i did encounter one case in a few thousand checks where someone managed to get a record through someone else giving this guy's details when he got nicked, but let's not go there for now)

This says CRB will send you a copy of whatever they send the potential employer.

If you've not had anything yet, then it's likely that CRB haven't dealt with you yet, and the organisation can't do a lot until they get your form back.  I'd be more inclined to think that this - or sheer administrative incompetence - is the reason they aren't getting back to you.

I'd be very surprised if any organisation cut all contact with someone because of discovering a minor conviction.  Usual process is if they have concerns, they might want to call you in to discuss it - and to give you the chance to explain that you're now a reformed character.  And with the possible right of appeal if they turn you down.  They ought to have a procedure for such things.

Also, within any organisation, only certain individuals are entitled to see the actual CRB disclosures - the penalties for them disclosing any detail to someone who's not authorised to see it are quite severe, including potential custodial sentences.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 21, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Oh shit.
> Too late now.
> 
> That would explain why the charity I started volunteering for haven't replied to any of my emails.
> Does the CRB check come back as just a FAIL or PASS, or do they tell you the details of your offence?


Just FAIL, iirc, but we knew already what the offence was (he'd told us)* but not declaring is regarded not as forgetfulness but deliberate omission.



*it precluded him as it was a violent offence albeit with very extenuating circumstances (stabbing a violent step-father who was attacking his Mum) but vulnerable clients and any violent offence, even nearly 20 years beforehand meant we couldn't employ him. Apart from anything else we probably couldn't have got insurance for him because of the failed CRB. I'm sure this was pre-enhanced CRB though.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 21, 2012)

Cheers PT! You are very helpful as usual!
Had a bit of a panic then.
I handed in a CRB check today you see and I said I didn't have any convictions as I didn't think of it as a criminal one. I wasn't arrested. I wasn't charged. The police weren't involved. The court I went to was one which issued traffic violation fines and points on licences, so I never really thought about it was a conviction, either spent or unspent.
Now I'm just worried that this school will think I'm an untrustworthy liar.
Still, two more CRB checks are coming up for other schools, so I shall tell them about the fines on these next forms.


Sorry for the hijack GS!


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 21, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Cheers PT! You are very helpful as usual!
> Had a bit of a panic then.
> I handed in a CRB check today you see and I said I didn't have any convictions as I didn't think of it as a criminal one. I wasn't arrested. I wasn't charged. The police weren't involved. The court I went to was one which issued traffic violation fines and points on licences, so I never really thought about it was a conviction, either spent or unspent.
> Now I'm just worried that this school will think I'm an untrustworthy liar.
> ...


 
It's ok, the application form went of this morning (I declared them). In a way I prefer forms that ask as it means if I get an interview I won't have to broach the awkward subject at the end of it. It was more the curious wording on this one as it's for a sector that I've not worked in before.


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## stuff_it (Sep 21, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Oh shit.
> Too late now.
> 
> That would explain why the charity I started volunteering for haven't replied to any of my emails.
> Does the CRB check come back as just a FAIL or PASS, or do they tell you the details of your offence?


No, as they would only do the enhanced CRB check if you'd been offered the job. They can't peek beforehand. 

It's not meant to be pass/fail and whether or not it is depends largely on the organisation and what they are looking for - if it's agency they normally act on a pass/fail basis. I applied for a job that was somewhere that does some defence related work and was interviewed. Didn't get it but they rang up and made it clear that it was because the other candidate had tons of experience in that very job and that I was second choice still.


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## Markmywords (Sep 21, 2012)

The rules were changed 3 years ago (by the labour Gov - but lets blame the Tories), so FORMAL cautions are never 'spent', they will always show up on an ECRB.
Seems a bit unfair, but it's never wise to accept a caution.
If they offer a caution its because they probably wont be arsed to take it to court, and anyway ur better to take ur chance and defend it, because a caution is as serious as a conviction, in ECRB terms.

Note a Formal caution is where u sign to agree u were naughty, that goes on record. A verbal caution is nothink


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## Hollis (Sep 21, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> But they do. It's not clear that you must mention cautions, but do mention them. I don't know whether you've ever been involved in enhanced CRBs but I have, loads of times and I'm saying what the score is. Fine if you don't agree, but your assertion could result in someone not getting the job.


 
Yes I have been involved in enhanced CRBs. Your assertion perpetuates ignorance of the issue. If you have not been convicted of an offence then whey should you declare an unspent conviction?

If they cause a problem then ask them for their policy on recruiting ex-offenders.

And btw your reply is quite patronising.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 21, 2012)

Hollis said:


> Yes I have been involved in enhanced CRBs. Your assertion perpetuates ignorance of the issue. If you have not been convicted of an offence then whey should you declare an unspent conviction?


IMO it perpetuates an IRL understanding of many interview processes and panels.

There are 2 perspectives.

1. it's not something they're technically asking for, get a foot in the door, when it shows up on the enhanced CRB later point out that they didn't ask that. And you'll be technically right.

2. they're asking about offences, declaring convictions up-front (when they'll inevitably be uncovered anyway as and when an ECRB is run) shows that you're both honest and open, and most likely 'past' whatever it is the cautions were for. It also avoids any potential *perception* that you might be hiding stuff.

I've tended to follow route 2., stating the precise wording on the ECRBs I've received in the past (date, offence, 2 cautions, blah) along with brief wording to say 'subsequently spent 2yrs working as an addictions counsellor, blah blah blah.'

Then again, other people in other situations, applying to other jobs, might make different judgment calls about what does and doesn't make sense.


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## Hollis (Sep 22, 2012)

What do you mean with all this 'technically'...its the actual facts of the situation.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 22, 2012)

Hollis said:


> What do you mean with all this 'technically'...its the actual facts of the situation.


Well, great, you can have that discussion in interview, and get arsey if they perceive that as kinda questionable, and have a perfectly valid point.

Or you can just avoid the possibility that it'll even vaguely be seen as sidestepping / dishonest / trying to hide something. Which, technically, it isn't, in actual fact.

Perhaps my experience has been jaded by being booted off the second year of a degree for *not* declaring cautions when all that was asked for was spent convictions. And, you know, you're probably completely right, and I probably could in actual fact go back and point out the technicalities again (as I think I did at the time) and try and go through all the technical, actual procedures to seek some form of redress, probably through the courts.

IME, not all orgs are fantastic at phrasing things. And they may or may not be superbly well-versed in actual fact and technicallies. Particularly if they're small scale.

You are 400% right. But human interactions, and negotiating human interactions, isn't always about being 'right,' or having access to (or presenting) actual facts. Making 'actual fact' points about spent or unspent convictions in an interview... It's... just... not something I want to get into, tbh. IMO, if I'm having to argue that, then I've probably gone a reasonable way to losing the interest of my interviewers. Even if it's their fault for being wrong on 'actual fact.'

So, yes, absolutely - go for 1. if you feel that's what you're up for.

I'll still keep on going for 2.


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## purenarcotic (Sep 22, 2012)

Always er on the side of caution and declare anything at all.  Most of the time it really won't be an issue, as Mrs M says it's more violent or sexual stuff that would really affect you.  

But don't declare it and they will see it as lying and being dishonest, even if you have technically been correct in not declaring it because it's now spent. 

Somebody has just been kicked of my course for not declaring a several year old caution for shop lifting something minor.  They didn't declare it during application but it appeared on their CRB.  All that effort and money completely down the drain over something the course wouldn't have given a shit over in the first place.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 22, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> Somebody has just been kicked of my course for not declaring a several year old caution for shop lifting something minor.  They didn't declare it during application but it appeared on their CRB.  All that effort and money completely down the drain over something the course wouldn't have given a shit over in the first place.


Tbf, if they weren't ASKED about cautions at entry, they might have a legal case for compensation. The difficulty wrt social work (and perhaps your course, too) is / was that my cautions and non-declaration of them made it impossible to find a work placement. So even if I'd argued the case / got compensation, it would've been pointless wrt the course (personally, at least) because it was literally uncompletable.


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## purenarcotic (Sep 22, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Tbf, if they weren't ASKED about cautions at entry, they might have a legal case for compensation. The difficulty wrt social work (and perhaps your course, too) is / was that my cautions and non-declaration of them made it impossible to find a work placement. So even if I'd argued the case / got compensation, it would've been pointless wrt the course (personally, at least) because it was literally uncompletable.


 
They were.  They assumed because it was old it wouldn't matter.  It's one of the first things asked on UCAS when you begin your application.

It's also asked again and again and again; if your interview is successful you're given a whole load of paperwork to send back to them, which repeatedly asks you if you have ever had any sort of criminal issue and to please declare it.  Again with the CRB application form, you're asked about it and we've had to show them our CRB's. 

When you are asked repeatedly to tell them if you have anything, I'm afraid I see no 'difficulty' about it.  If they were unsure they should have contacted the university to ask them if it was necessary to declare it or not.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 22, 2012)

In which case, oops!


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