# Do you support the University markers strike?



## strung out (May 4, 2006)

I'm just about to do my finals (they start next week  ) and am faced with the possibility of my exams and coursework not being marked... at least, not in time for me to graduate at the correct time. I'm fully in support of these strikes and would have hoped that the majority of students would be as well (the student population traditionally being a source of left wing activism) However a recent survey has said that 77% of the student population opposes the strike, which dismays me greatly, particularly as 68% were in favour of a pay-rise.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4970484.stm

Are people here in support of the strike? What do the people who it may be affecting think? Poll to follow


----------



## zenie (May 4, 2006)

Yes I support it of course.

What does it matter if your graducation is delayed?


----------



## Kidda (May 4, 2006)

a lot of the students ive met who dont support the strike, dont because they've got a very me me me attitude.

makes me sick to be honest.

i hope none of these students ever have to take strike action in their jobs.


----------



## strung out (May 4, 2006)

My housemate is talking about it leaving the strikers open to legal action (typical middle classer, dads a lawyer). Don't know how much truth there is in this, but it sickens me that one of the so-called most radical sections of society (students) cannot be in favour of it. Shows to me that it also seems to be one of the most selfish sections of society as well...


----------



## wtfftw (May 4, 2006)

I wonder (slightly) if students paying tuition fees and universities acting like business impacts on views of this.
God, that sentence is put so badly. Kinda, "we're paying for this so why can't they just mark it on time?".


----------



## strung out (May 4, 2006)

Some of them don't realise that if they were actually paying completely for their uni education, they'd be paying thousands and thousands of pounds each year instead of the paltry £1000 a year.


----------



## maes (May 4, 2006)

Fully support it, some of the fucking wanky attitudes I've seen have made me fucking angry - all 'how dare they strike and distrupt *my* education'. Fucking princesses the lot of them. As soon as people start appreciating what lecturers do, education can become something exciting and mind expanding, instead of the current corporate wank.


----------



## llantwit (May 4, 2006)

I was petitioning/leafleting with my AUT workmates today, and most students said they supported it once I engaged them in conversation (but then some might have been lying to avoid an argument or to arselick, I guess), but SOOO many didn't have a clue about the whole thing, and more than a few just didn't give a toss. Now that's kind of worrying.


----------



## Nemo (May 4, 2006)

maestrocloud said:
			
		

> Fully support it, some of the fucking wanky attitudes I've seen have made me fucking angry - all 'how dare they strike and distrupt *my* education'. Fucking princesses the lot of them. As soon as people start appreciating what lecturers do, education can become something exciting and mind expanding, instead of the current corporate wank.



I agree 100%; people's belief that they're the only person in the world is incredibly depressing.


----------



## Red Faction (May 4, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I was petitioning/leafleting with my AUT workmates today, and most students said they supported it once I engaged them in conversation (but then some might have been lying to avoid an argument or to arselick, I guess), but SOOO many didn't have a clue about the whole thing, and more than a few just didn't give a toss. Now that's kind of worrying.


i dont really have a clue about it
im guessing its about money
im not affected (being a medical student)
but of the lecturers ive spoken to (parents of friends)
they've quit the AUT and they're against it
again when i ask what its about they say "money, money, money" and roll their eyes


----------



## mauvais (May 4, 2006)

Most of my lecturers, and my tutor who I've spoken to at length, are pretty disillusioned with the AUT, but also the universities - especially those like Keele who are starting to say they'll extrapolate final marks based on previously assessed work.

I'll still support them. I don't quite know what the personal effects will be - it almost certainly won't be negative. Suppose the marks are delayed - "ooh how will I get a job etc". Well, lots of people will get into jobs even if their degree mark turns out lower than expected, and in doing so have the chance to prove themselves worthy anyway where they'd otherwise have been kicked out.


----------



## strung out (May 9, 2006)

Good to see everyone agrees with me then


----------



## Diamond (May 9, 2006)

I don't support the strike. From my perspective the 'action short of a strike' now increasingly looks like a rudderless and ineffective campaign born of the unique  strain of idealistic naiviete and hypocritical spinelessness that characterises the sterile and demoralising atmosphere of the modern British academy. 

I started a thread on this a while back and stated my opinions and reasoning. Since then I've discussed the issue with all my tutors at some length and I have to say that my opinions have only hardened against the strike.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=156328&highlight=student

p.s. I've never bought any of that guff about universal strike solidarity and 'us against the evil cabal of the managing ruling class'. On one level it's just lazy and anachronistic thinking but on another it's just a way of clubbing people into submission with political dogma.


----------



## strung out (May 9, 2006)

Diamond said:
			
		

> I don't support the strike. From my perspective the 'action short of a strike' now increasingly looks like a rudderless and ineffective campaign born of the unique  strain of idealistic naiviete and hypocritical spinelessness that characterises the sterile and demoralising atmosphere of the modern British academy.


what the fuck does that mean? It just comes across as nonsensical claptrap. What is your actual _reason_ for not supporting the strike. All the lecturers I've spoken to have said that this is a problem that has gone on for years. The problem is that whereas those deciding the pay of lecturers want to run the uni as a business and don't give a fuck about the students, the lecturers actually do care about their students, and this has been something that those in charge have been using as a way of preventing strike action in previous years. By putting their own selfish needs first, students are playing up to this emotional blackmail and even if they agree with the strike in principle, their non-support for lecturers is fucking disgraceful.


----------



## Diamond (May 9, 2006)

Tedix said:
			
		

> what the fuck does that mean? It just comes across as nonsensical claptrap. What is your actual _reason_ for not supporting the strike. All the lecturers I've spoken to have said that this is a problem that has gone on for years. The problem is that whereas those deciding the pay of lecturers want to run the uni as a business and don't give a fuck about the students, the lecturers actually do care about their students, and this has been something that those in charge have been using as a way of preventing strike action in previous years. By putting their own selfish needs first, students are playing up to this emotional blackmail and even if they agree with the strike in principle, their non-support for lecturers is fucking disgraceful.




Calm down and read my last post on the thread that i cited and then come back. That has most of the reasons that I oppose the 'action short of a strike'. Oh and don't just swallow everything your lecturers say about them being as good as gold.


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (May 9, 2006)

Tedix said:
			
		

> My housemate is talking about it leaving the strikers open to legal action (typical middle classer, dads a lawyer). Don't know how much truth there is in this, but it sickens me that one of the so-called most radical sections of society (students) cannot be in favour of it. Shows to me that it also seems to be one of the most selfish sections of society as well...



There was something in the Sunday times education section this week saying that the strikers would probably not be open to legal action so long as they have followed the proper union protocols.
The univerities however, as awarding body would probably be in a bit of a pickle.
I suspect thats why 12.5% was put on the table, as a worried, shit we need to sort this soon attempt
Im doing my finals, yes Im worried about it but if everyone is in the same situation regards marking and graduations then what can you do? Ill be graduating at christmas anyway becuase of illness earlier this year * shrugs* I dont know if I would feel more strongly about it if I was supposed to be graduating in July


----------



## Diamond (May 9, 2006)

The impression that I get from my tutors, especially the ones who were tubthumping about how this was a masterstrike (sorry, poor pun) that would force the unis' hand within days or weeks back in Feburary/March, is that all sides feel this has gotten out of control.

Basically the AUT never envisaged the breakdown lasting this long. Consequently they are at a bit of a loss over what to do. They can't exactly escalate the matter because teaching has finished and it would of course be utterly unthinkable and totally irrelevant [said with heavy sarcasm] to cease their research and publication obligations too.

It's a simple example of very poor negotiation skills. They reserved the option to escalate the issue but never seemed to have set a realistic timetable for a plan b, or else didn't have the balls to take it further when they had a small window of opportunity to do so. The bottom line is that the management can sit on their hands now and wait while blaming, to some extent justifiably, the non-graduation of students on the AUT.

They can afford to wait it out at the very least to the start of next term and would probably have few qualms about letting the whole thing drag on until Christmas as long as the AUT maintain their position. After all when the crunch time of this academic year passes (in a month or so) they won't have any tremendous added pressure until the New Year or any significant pressure until next summer.


----------



## strung out (May 9, 2006)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Ill be graduating at christmas anyway becuase of illness earlier this year * shrugs* I dont know if I would feel more strongly about it if I was supposed to be graduating in July


I'm in exactly the same situation. I don't think I would feel more strongly about it, mostly because I felt the same way before I got ill...


----------



## Nemo (May 9, 2006)

Diamond said:
			
		

> They can afford to wait it out at the very least to the start of next term and would probably have few qualms about letting the whole thing drag on until Christmas as long as the AUT maintain their position. After all when the crunch time of this academic year passes (in a month or so) they won't have any tremendous added pressure until the New Year or any significant pressure until next summer.



Um, with respect, you're totally wrong. The universities are actually very worried about this because if people don't graduate due to something like this, they have a pretty good case for suing the university, and if only a few people do that, the appalling publicity would be very damaging even before the damages were taken into consideration. Plus, if there's a big problem with graduations this year, it'll potentially discourage a lot of high-fee-paying international students from applying in future, and universities really really love international students as they can sting them for about ten times as much as home and EU students. Why do you think universities are making contingency plans? The scuttlebutt I've heard (by shamelessly eavesdropping on other people's conversations) is that some universities at least are planning to allow people to graduate with a partial transcript and a classification roughly based on their work so far. Then, when the strike is over, they'll upgrade people whose exams/essays merit it. The chances are that a lot of papers will be marked by scabs and blacklegs anyway.

Oh, and for the record, I'll (hopefully) be graduating this summer, and I still support the lecturers (mostly because I believe that they're far nicer to us than we deserve).


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (May 10, 2006)

Nemo said:
			
		

> Oh, and for the record, I'll (hopefully) be graduating this summer, and I still support the lecturers (mostly because I believe that they're far nicer to us than we deserve).



seconded. Most of the staff at our uni are top people,I know several lecturers who are on shitey temporary contracts and as a result get no real employment rights and the pay situation is hit and miss at best. Hopefully the strike will help them most


----------



## Santino (May 10, 2006)

If you go on strike, shouldn't you expect to be not paid? What the lecturers are doing is trying to do is have their cake and eat it. If you want to strike, strike. Picket the building. Light fires in old steel drums. Stay at home. Do not turn up to work and expect full pay for doing half of your job.


----------



## JKKne (May 10, 2006)

It'll all liven up in June when this Super-Union starts up

Red brick and polytechnic together....a monster of academia


----------



## Diamond (May 10, 2006)

Nemo said:
			
		

> Um, with respect, you're totally wrong. The universities are actually very worried about this because if people don't graduate due to something like this, they have a pretty good case for suing the university, and if only a few people do that, the appalling publicity would be very damaging even before the damages were taken into consideration. Plus, if there's a big problem with graduations this year, it'll potentially discourage a lot of high-fee-paying international students from applying in future, and universities really really love international students as they can sting them for about ten times as much as home and EU students. Why do you think universities are making contingency plans? The scuttlebutt I've heard (by shamelessly eavesdropping on other people's conversations) is that some universities at least are planning to allow people to graduate with a partial transcript and a classification roughly based on their work so far. Then, when the strike is over, they'll upgrade people whose exams/essays merit it. The chances are that a lot of papers will be marked by scabs and blacklegs anyway.
> 
> Oh, and for the record, I'll (hopefully) be graduating this summer, and I still support the lecturers (mostly because I believe that they're far nicer to us than we deserve).



But all the applications for next year have surely already been processed. It's very difficult to see how this strike will affect those and in the meantime the unis have breathing space.

On top of that this whole issue has gotten minimal publicity. The impression I've gotten is that it is in the interest of all sides to keep this story low profile  because it damages both the lecturers' and the unis' reputations. When you add that to the big news agenda of the last few months and the onset of world cup fever it's difficult to see how the 'action short of a strike' will really  get much significant publicity and thereby put pressure on the universities. 

Furthermore the pressure through the press technicque depends on the lecturers getting a positive slant. Listening to 5live last night, reading the reports and experiencing the action at ground level it's easy to see that the limited sympathy that the lecturers had is rapidly ebbing away.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 10, 2006)

This isn't a strike. It's action short of a strike.

And btw, students, coming on with an arrogant spoilt brat sense of entitlement is not the best way to endear yourselves to your overworked, underpaid lecturers.

Learn a bit of fucking manners, stop smoking hash, hand your fucking essays in on time, and be fucking grateful.


----------



## Santino (May 10, 2006)

Idris2002 said:
			
		

> This isn't a strike. It's action short of a strike.
> 
> And btw, students, coming on with an arrogant spoilt brat sense of entitlement is not the best way to endear yourselves to your overworked, underpaid lecturers.
> 
> Learn a bit of fucking manners, stop smoking hash, hand your fucking essays in on time, and be fucking grateful.


As I often say, if anyone cares to listen to me, which they generally don't, lecturers are like students who've never got a proper job. They take drugs, are rude to support staff and hand in shit at the last possible minute, way after the deadline that was agreed. Many of them live very comfortable lives, in nice houses, spend afternoons in pubs and have research leave in which they have 13 weeks to produce a couple of articles. Nice work if you can get it.


----------



## llantwit (May 10, 2006)

Diamond said:
			
		

> I don't support the strike. From my perspective the 'action short of a strike' now increasingly looks like a rudderless and ineffective campaign born of the unique  strain of idealistic naiviete and hypocritical spinelessness that characterises the sterile and demoralising atmosphere of the modern British academy.
> 
> I started a thread on this a while back and stated my opinions and reasoning. Since then I've discussed the issue with all my tutors at some length and I have to say that my opinions have only hardened against the strike.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, ... Well, no I'm not sorry. Scrub that.
If you believe what you wrote there then you're an ignorant cunt. I usually afford people I debate with on here a bit more respect than that, but since you've not only displayed your ignorance very clearly, but also accused those you disagree with of lazy, dogmatic, and anachronistic thinking in your first post on the thread, you don't deserve that respect.

No form of strike action is pleasant, and every lecturer who participates in this action is feeling extremely conflicted and uncomfortable about it. Lecturers do what they do, in the main, because they care about education. They didn't go into it to follow the money. But the piss has been taken for too long now, and many feel that they have to make a stand.

That stand is not outmoded or dogmatic, and it certainly isn't the result of 'lazy' thought. It's about trying to gain better pay and conditions by excercising the right (yes, right) to withold ones labour. That's the bottom line here - if you think that that's somehow 'idealistic', 'naive', or 'spineless', then you can fuck off.


----------



## Diamond (May 10, 2006)

Alex B said:
			
		

> As I often say, if anyone cares to listen to me, which they generally don't, lecturers are like students who've never got a proper job. They take drugs, are rude to support staff and hand in shit at the last possible minute, way after the deadline that was agreed. Many of them live very comfortable lives, in nice houses, spend afternoons in pubs and have research leave in which they have 13 weeks to produce a couple of articles. Nice work if you can get it.



Hear, Hear.


----------



## llantwit (May 10, 2006)

Idris2002 said:
			
		

> This isn't a strike. It's action short of a strike.
> 
> And btw, students, coming on with an arrogant spoilt brat sense of entitlement is not the best way to endear yourselves to your overworked, underpaid lecturers.
> 
> Learn a bit of fucking manners, stop smoking hash, hand your fucking essays in on time, and be fucking grateful.



Encore! Encore!


----------



## Diamond (May 10, 2006)

Idris2002 said:
			
		

> This isn't a strike. It's action short of a strike.
> 
> And btw, students, coming on with an arrogant spoilt brat sense of entitlement is not the best way to endear yourselves to your overworked, underpaid lecturers.
> 
> Learn a bit of fucking manners, stop smoking hash, hand your fucking essays in on time, and be fucking grateful.



Of course it isn't a strike, it's a half-hearted cop-out that has been shown up to be a very poor negotiating tactic.

My opposition is not based on a sense of entitlement.

I am angry a the hypocritical nature of the 'action short of a strike', I'm angry at the myopia that allows lecturers' unions to demand huge portions of the university budget without recognition of other more pressing areas such as library stocks, but most of all I'm angry at four years essentially wasted at one of the top universities in this country being taught by a bunch of muppets who can't even be arsed to fully mark my essays, organise courses with accessible reading lists or even just once properly conduct a seminar rather than letting it lapse into silence.

I'm not at university to endear myself to lecturers and as far as manners go I'll never show respect to people who only offer condescension. We'd hand essays in on time if we were under the impression that they were given more than just a cursory glance and we'd be grateful if there was anything to be grateful for.


----------



## Nemo (May 10, 2006)

Diamond said:
			
		

> But all the applications for next year have surely already been processed. It's very difficult to see how this strike will affect those and in the meantime the unis have breathing space.



Um, not everyone who's offered a place actually turns up, you know. Universities are worried about international students who don't turn up because if they're on a three-year course they're effectively out £30,000+ for each one. If you have a load of international students going back home this summer saying 'UK universities are crap, I paid £45,000 for my MEng degree and it didn't even get assessed properly due to the poor industrial relations which prevail in British academia,' I wonder how many simply won't bother.



> On top of that this whole issue has gotten minimal publicity. The impression I've gotten is that it is in the interest of all sides to keep this story low profile  because it damages both the lecturers' and the unis' reputations. When you add that to the big news agenda of the last few months and the onset of world cup fever it's difficult to see how the 'action short of a strike' will really  get much significant publicity and thereby put pressure on the universities.



I suspect that pretty much all the major blocs, groupings, and players in the HE sector know what's going on; beyond that it doesn't really matter. If a significant number of graduations are delayed or hamstrung, you can bet that a hell of a lot more people will know about it.



> Furthermore the pressure through the press technicque depends on the lecturers getting a positive slant. Listening to 5live last night, reading the reports and experiencing the action at ground level it's easy to see that the limited sympathy that the lecturers had is rapidly ebbing away.



You think that'll end the strike quickly? It's far more likely to prolong it because the UCEA will think that if they sit on their hands they won't have to shell out on payrises.


----------



## Diamond (May 10, 2006)

Nemo said:
			
		

> You think that'll end the strike quickly? It's far more likely to prolong it because the UCEA will think that if they sit on their hands they won't have to shell out on payrises.



No. That's exactly my point.

The 'action short of a strike' won't end quickly because of the poor negotiating strategy and ineffective tactics on behalf of the lecturers. As a result the lecturers have lead themselves into a deadend on the negotiating front while the universities can afford to let things drag on for a bit as the tide of opinion turns against the lecturers.


----------



## Nemo (May 10, 2006)

Diamond said:
			
		

> No. That's exactly my point.
> 
> The 'action short of a strike' won't end quickly because of the poor negotiating strategy and ineffective tactics on behalf of the lecturers. As a result the lecturers have lead themselves into a deadend on the negotiating front while the universities can afford to let things drag on for a bit as the tide of opinion turns against the lecturers.



You still don't seem to have got the message that the universities can't afford to let it drift either. For them, bad publicity is bad publicity no matter who gets the blame.


----------



## Diamond (May 10, 2006)

Nemo said:
			
		

> You still don't seem to have got the message that the universities can't afford to let it drift either. For them, bad publicity is bad publicity no matter who gets the blame.



That's true but what I pointed out earlier is that there's been very little publicity.

So far you've argued that within the confines of HE everyone knows about it and through word-of-mouth reports among returning foreign students a crucial section of potential students will know about it, but the bottom line is that for this action to be truly effective it needs national and international coverage. 

That's not going to happen now because it's too late. 

Blair's dominating the news and in a months time some football teams in Germany will have a kickabout that will dominate the press through to July.

Either way the longer the dispute drifts the more damage it will have on lecturers because the balance of public sympathy is turning against them.


----------



## 2 Hardcore (May 10, 2006)

Alex B said:
			
		

> *Many of them* live very comfortable lives, in nice houses, spend afternoons in pubs and have research leave in which they have 13 weeks to produce a couple of articles. Nice work if you can get it.



I'm glad you put that qualification there. But I still would argue that you're talking about a minority.

You're certainly not talking about me - I've been a lecturer/researcher for 13 years; until last year, I worked on renewable fixed-term 2 and 3 yearly contracts so no job security, and no -one willing to give me a mortgage (unless I coughed up 20-25% deposit) for that 'nice house'. 
I have never taken my full quota of annual leave because of workload.
I never spend afternoons in the pub.
And we are expected to churn out those articles alongside teaching, research etc - to be permitted study leave would require very substantial writing commitments (eg a book or two; several articles and some book chapters).

I enjoy my job, I want my students to do well, but I don't want the employers taking the piss.
(rant over)


----------



## Nemo (May 10, 2006)

Diamond said:
			
		

> That's true but what I pointed out earlier is that there's been very little publicity.
> 
> So far you've argued that within the confines of HE everyone knows about it and through word-of-mouth reports among returning foreign students a crucial section of potential students will know about it, but the bottom line is that for this action to be truly effective it needs national and international coverage.



And you think it's not getting that? If people are looking for universities in the UK, the chances are they'll look at the educational press, in which case they'll know all about the industrial action which is going on. And then later on when there's a spate of law suits, there'll be further adverse publicity.



> That's not going to happen now because it's too late.



You have a very limited view; you assume that it's only significant if it bites you this year, and that it'll only affect the current admissions round.



> Either way the longer the dispute drifts the more damage it will have on lecturers because the balance of public sympathy is turning against them.



I'll say it again. IT. DOESN'T. REALLY. MATTER. BECAUSE. FOR. THE. UNIVERSITIES. BAD. PUBLICITY. IS. BAD. PUBLICITY.


----------



## Diamond (May 10, 2006)

Nemo said:
			
		

> You have a very limited view; you assume that it's only significant if it bites you this year, and that it'll only affect the current admissions round.
> 
> ...
> 
> I'll say it again. IT. DOESN'T. REALLY. MATTER. BECAUSE. FOR. THE. UNIVERSITIES. BAD. PUBLICITY. IS. BAD. PUBLICITY.



I'm just looking at the short-term negotiating stance admittedly and in the long run an agreement will be reached. What I'm trying to point out is that the whole thing has been a bit hamfisted and consequently the negotiating position of the lecturers has been weakened. That's leading to some pretty odd decisions from the Unions' negotiators such as the one they made yesterday, which can only undermine the loyalty of lecturers who were wavering.

Yes it's bad publicity for the universities. BUT it's not that bad because there's not much of it and there won't be for the forseeable future. AND they have a ready-made excuse that mitigates their position thanks to the position of the unions. It's still bad but it's not nearly as effective as it should have been.


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (May 11, 2006)

Diamond said:
			
		

> Of course it isn't a strike, it's a half-hearted cop-out that has been shown up to be a very poor negotiating tactic.
> 
> My opposition is not based on a sense of entitlement.
> 
> ...



if you didnt endear yourself to lecturers at ours youd get precisely nowehere. Treat them like human beings and give them the respect you deserve and I think you'll find many of them ae wonderful people who will bend over backwards to help you out.

sounds like perhaps theres a bit of karma here, get what you give and all that


----------



## k_s (May 14, 2006)

The whole ethos of cramming as many students as possible onto every course- itself a natural consequence of tuition fees- is ruining higher education in this country IMO. Lecturers have too many students, and so not enough time to mark work properly or to genuinely engage with students. This is not the lecturers fault, it is the fault of bean-counting vice chancellors and a soulless education policy. The effort put in by my lecturers and the support they give students has been has been fantastic over the years considering their circumstances; you can tell these people really want to teach. This is why this strike simply doesn't fit in my mind- i can't imagine my teachers wanting to sell their students down the river. Naive perhaps since that is what they now appear to be doing, but i suspect sabre-rattling union bigwigs are behind this, not lecturers in general.

Higher education could use some drastic changes- but there is no basis for any kind of reform if students are not respected. Right now i feel like a bargaining chip in some giant pissing contest and that is not endearing me to academia in any way whatsoever. Much as i hate the fact that i need a piece of paper to 'prove' i've spent the last three years working hard and trying to learn- that piece of paper is important to me. Not just in terms of putting it on a CV, i will need a degree to go on and study in the future. The AUT appears to have been sucked in to the government's evil scheme and is treating education as if it were a stock market.

Support this strike and you support the comodification of learning- the reinforcement of the idea that knowledge is a product which can be witheld. Few lecturers would wish to classify their field of work as 'manufacturing', but that seems to be the way things are heading.


----------



## strung out (May 14, 2006)

so you're not in favour of the strike then?


----------



## strung out (May 14, 2006)

By the way, lecturers *are not* selling their students down the river. They are exercising their right to protest against the apalling pay they get. I as a student in no way see that as selling me down the river. The only effect this will have on me personally is that I may graduate later than usual. If students aren't prepared to accept this small sacrifice in order to support their striking lecturers, they can fuck off imo.


----------



## Diamond (May 14, 2006)

k_s said:
			
		

> The whole ethos of cramming as many students as possible onto every course- itself a natural consequence of tuition fees- is ruining higher education in this country IMO. Lecturers have too many students, and so not enough time to mark work properly or to genuinely engage with students. This is not the lecturers fault, it is the fault of bean-counting vice chancellors and a soulless education policy. The effort put in by my lecturers and the support they give students has been has been fantastic over the years considering their circumstances; you can tell these people really want to teach. This is why this strike simply doesn't fit in my mind- i can't imagine my teachers wanting to sell their students down the river. Naive perhaps since that is what they now appear to be doing, but i suspect sabre-rattling union bigwigs are behind this, not lecturers in general.
> 
> Higher education could use some drastic changes- but there is no basis for any kind of reform if students are not respected. Right now i feel like a bargaining chip in some giant pissing contest and that is not endearing me to academia in any way whatsoever. Much as i hate the fact that i need a piece of paper to 'prove' i've spent the last three years working hard and trying to learn- that piece of paper is important to me. Not just in terms of putting it on a CV, i will need a degree to go on and study in the future. The AUT appears to have been sucked in to the government's evil scheme and is treating education as if it were a stock market.
> 
> Support this strike and you support the comodification of learning- the reinforcement of the idea that knowledge is a product which can be witheld. Few lecturers would wish to classify their field of work as 'manufacturing', but that seems to be the way things are heading.



I'd agree with the vast bulk of that. My university is closer to a production line factory than an academy.


----------



## strung out (May 14, 2006)

What has that got to do with whether you support a strike or not?


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (May 14, 2006)

Tedix said:
			
		

> By the way, lecturers *are not* selling their students down the river. They are exercising their right to protest against the apalling pay they get. I as a student in no way see that as selling me down the river. The only effect this will have on me personally is that I may graduate later than usual. If students aren't prepared to accept this small sacrifice in order to support their striking lecturers, they can fuck off imo.



I agree with you in part. I dont think I;d feel that way though if I had a place on a graduate scheme or similar depending on getting a certain grade and some 'temporary' grading not being acceptable and affecting my career/job prospects


----------



## Diamond (May 14, 2006)

Tedix said:
			
		

> What has that got to do with whether you support a strike or not?



Not a trememdous amount but I've already laid out above why I think the strike is a poor idea, badly executed.


----------



## k_s (May 14, 2006)

Tedix said:
			
		

> By the way, lecturers *are not* selling their students down the river. They are exercising their right to protest against the apalling pay they get. I as a student in no way see that as selling me down the river. The only effect this will have on me personally is that I may graduate later than usual. If students aren't prepared to accept this small sacrifice in order to support their striking lecturers, they can fuck off imo.



Then perhaps a little dialogue between students and lecturers would be good? It would be nice if someone had asked me if i was willing to make this 'sacrifice' of yours. My main problem is essentially the lack of respect shown to students- if they aren't treating us like simple bargaining chips then they would do well to try an explain this to their students, because from down here in the cheap seats it looks like the piss is being taken in a big way.


----------



## strung out (May 14, 2006)

k_s said:
			
		

> Then perhaps a little dialogue between students and lecturers would be good? It would be nice if someone had asked me if i was willing to make this 'sacrifice' of yours. My main problem is essentially the lack of respect shown to students- if they aren't treating us like simple bargaining chips then they would do well to try an explain this to their students, because from down here in the cheap seats it looks like the piss is being taken in a big way.


But it's not the responsibility of the lecturers. It's the responsibility of the institution. They're who you pay your money to and they then employ the lecturers. If the lecturers aren't getting paid enough, then they have the right to go on strike and they have no obligation to the students whatsoever. If the lecturers didn't feel like they had a duty to the students then this strike would have happened a lot sooner. Unfortunately the institutions have always counted on the fact that lecturers will back down through some sense of duty to the students. Well this time the lecturers shouldn't back down. They need to have the balls to strike and damn the consequences because otherwise they will get nowhere.

If you feel the need to be angry with someone, blame the twats in charge who aren't giving the lecturers what they desreve. It's a credit to the lecturers I have spoken to that they have been so open and honest about what they are doing and why.


----------



## k_s (May 14, 2006)

My university has already negotiated a pay deal which has been accepted by its lecturers- quite what else they are expected to do to get their employees doing their job is a mystery to me.


----------



## Diamond (May 14, 2006)

Tedix said:
			
		

> But it's not the responsibility of the lecturers. It's the responsibility of the institution. They're who you pay your money to and they then employ the lecturers. If the lecturers aren't getting paid enough, then they have the right to go on strike and they have no obligation to the students whatsoever. If the lecturers didn't feel like they had a duty to the students then this strike would have happened a lot sooner. Unfortunately the institutions have always counted on the fact that lecturers will back down through some sense of duty to the students. Well this time the lecturers shouldn't back down. They need to have the balls to strike and damn the consequences because otherwise they will get nowhere.
> 
> If you feel the need to be angry with someone, blame the twats in charge who aren't giving the lecturers what they desreve. It's a credit to the lecturers I have spoken to that they have been so open and honest about what they are doing and why.



You see that's just bollocks and it displays the outstandingly reductive and polarised thinking that props up this whole farce.

Both sides are responsible for the students. And both sides should be trying to sort it out rather than pointing fingers and passing the buck.

I can't believe you're falling for this rubbish about the responsibilty devolving exclusively onto either side.

Maybe that's why lecturers have so little respect for their students: they realise they're gullible naive fools who will be sold any old nonsense as long as it's proffered under the banner of progressive, liberal, left-wing social justice.


----------



## Diamond (May 14, 2006)

k_s said:
			
		

> My university has already negotiated a pay deal which has been accepted by its lecturers- quite what else they are expected to do to get their employees doing their job is a mystery to me.



Which one is that?

I knew the strike was pretty patchy and that many people are starting to see sense and depart from the unions' absurd negotiating strategy, but the only place I've heard of is St. Andrew's.


----------



## zenie (May 14, 2006)

What a bunch of cunts people are


----------



## strung out (May 14, 2006)

What solution would you suggest then?


----------



## k_s (May 14, 2006)

I'm at nottingham- the one lecturer who took the time to explain what was going on made it pretty clear that them striking is just a union thing and won't actually affect them one way or another. Counterproductive much?


----------



## strung out (May 14, 2006)

k_s said:
			
		

> I'm at nottingham- the one lecturer who took the time to explain what was going on made it pretty clear that them striking is just a union thing and won't actually affect them one way or another. Counterproductive much?


I can see you know a lot about it then


----------



## Diamond (May 14, 2006)

Tedix said:
			
		

> What solution would you suggest then?



Well for starters the AUT could have balloted their members on the 12.6% offer. It may not be what they want as union leaders, but lecturers on the ground here (Edinburgh) are a little bit peeved that they haven't been consulted and that the democratic process seems to have been neglected. The impression I get is that on campus is that the vote would have been in favour.


----------



## Diamond (May 14, 2006)

zenie said:
			
		

> What a bunch of cunts people are



Productive....


----------



## Nemo (May 14, 2006)

k_s said:
			
		

> My university has already negotiated a pay deal which has been accepted by its lecturers- quite what else they are expected to do to get their employees doing their job is a mystery to me.



The whole point is that this is a national strike about national pay scales. The universities would love to make local settlements because it would effectively break the Unions' capacity for collective bargaining. That's why the AUT was so dismissive of the settlement offered at St. Andrews. That's also why staff at universities where there are no particular issues regarding pay are involved.

Also, re. the wider issues regarding students and lecturers, if you want to know your tutors' positions on the strike, there is a very simple way to find out: ask them. Just remember not to be hostile and not to accuse them of deserting their students.


----------



## Diamond (May 14, 2006)

Nemo said:
			
		

> The whole point is that this is a national strike about national pay scales. The universities would love to make local settlements because it would effectively break the Unions' capacity for collective bargaining. That's why the AUT was so dismissive of the settlement offered at St. Andrews. That's also why staff at universities where there are no particular issues regarding pay are involved.
> 
> Also, re. the wider issues regarding students and lecturers, if you want to know your tutors' positions on the strike, there is a very simple way to find out: ask them. Just remember not to be hostile and not to accuse them of deserting their students.



Out of interest what's your take on the failure to ballot the members on the 12.6%?


----------



## Combustible (May 14, 2006)

How can you expect them to reconsider action unless they have been involved in negotiations.  The universities refuse to negotiate and now seem to expect that the unions have an obligation to accept whatever offer they are made.

Were the firefighters being selfish by going on strike?  The impression I get is lecturers pay has been a problem for ages and this is the only way of bringing the matter to a head.


----------



## Diamond (May 14, 2006)

Combustible said:
			
		

> How can you expect them to reconsider action unless they have been involved in negotiations.  The universities refuse to negotiate and now seem to expect that the unions have an obligation to accept whatever offer they are made.
> 
> Were the firefighters being selfish by going on strike?  The impression I get is lecturers pay has been a problem for ages and this is the only way of bringing the matter to a head.



As far as I understand 12.6% was the revised offer on the table last week when the negotiations broke down because the AUT refused to take the offer to its members.

So technically an offer was made during negotiations and the AUT refused to reconsider the action.


----------



## JKKne (May 14, 2006)

Students at Newcastle will be graduating this year, the University Board have passed an emergency measure to ensure graduation will take place

Durham are about to follow suit and Northumbria aren't bothering as only 3% of their lecturers are involved


----------



## k_s (May 15, 2006)

Yeah, but fuck people in the north- real people's futures are at stake here.


----------



## k_s (May 15, 2006)

The important thing is diamond's been right all along and no one is listening


----------



## JKKne (May 15, 2006)

k_s said:
			
		

> Yeah, but fuck people in the north- real people's futures are at stake here.



 

Trust us to trailblaze the way into saving this University year!


----------



## llantwit (May 15, 2006)

Despite all the right wing rhetoric and obfuscation from Diamond and k_s, it pays to keep glancing up at the poll, btw.



> Maybe that's why lecturers have so little respect for their students: they realise they're gullible naive fools who will be sold any old nonsense as long as it's proffered under the banner of progressive, liberal, left-wing social justice.



You think you've got it so spot on, don't you? You have no idea. 

It needs to keep being restated - lecturers don't want to be on strike, and they feel really bad about putting the students out. They are only sticking at it because they've been shafted for too long, now.



> Support this strike and you support the comodification of learning- the reinforcement of the idea that knowledge is a product which can be witheld. Few lecturers would wish to classify their field of work as 'manufacturing', but that seems to be the way things are heading.


This is just offensive nonsense. The lecturers aren't witholding the students' 'knowledge', they're witholding their labour - from the vice chancellors, their employers. If you think that because they're educators they are somehow exempt from the right to withdraw their labour as a last-instance bargaining tool then you're wrong.



> Both sides are responsible for the students. And both sides should be trying to sort it out rather than pointing fingers and passing the buck.


Both sides are trying to sort it out, as you know. But 'finger-pointing' and 'buck-passing' seem to be perrenial in industrial action cases. 
As I'm sure you understand, there is a fundamental and quite understandable conflict of interests at stake. 
Those in power (the managers, the employers, the VCs) want to get away with paying their employees as little as possible. That's generally how these things work. Those employees have very few ways to convince their employers that they should be paid more. Asking nicely for more money rarely works, you see.
Pretty much the only way of getting a better deal for themselves is to take industial action and withold their labour, thus forcing their employers to take notice. There are always negative consequences of industrial action, and nobody likes taking it, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
Just out of interest, do you disagree with any of that Diamond?

On the 12% pay offer - it ammounts to very little over the rate of inflation over 3 years (which is what they get anyway, pretty much). The offer was a joke, and more importantly, was part of ongoing negotiations. If the union balloted the members on every tin-pot offer (especially the FIRST offer) that was made in negotiations it would make the process of negotiating a joke. The union members who negotiate have a mandate from the membership to do just that - negotiate. That's how it works.


----------



## strung out (May 15, 2006)

Excellent post there llantwit. As far as I can tell, the only reason you could possibly oppose the strike is if you're worried about your oh so precious degree being delayed by a month or two (which is a very small minded attitude to take) or if you are one of those people in charge at the institutions.

Having spoken to my lecturers, who have told me their concerns about neglecting their duties to their students, I had to say to them that I believed their need to be far greater than mine. It's a shame that some selfish students can't see the same.


----------



## k_s (May 15, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> This is just offensive nonsense. The lecturers aren't witholding the students' 'knowledge', they're witholding their labour - from the vice chancellors, their employers. If you think that because they're educators they are somehow exempt from the right to withdraw their labour as a last-instance bargaining tool then you're wrong.



But their labour in terms of marking exams is not economically productive in the same way their research output is. And they're not witholding knowledge, they are witholding degrees, which are conflated with knowledge out here in the real world. Surely stopping research work would hit vice chancellors harder? 

And yes my degree is 'oh so precious', it is what i have been working for for the past three years. The idea that lecturers can so callously withdraw the right of students to get what they have earned doesn't sit well.


----------



## Diamond (May 15, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Despite all the right wing rhetoric and obfuscation from Diamond and k_s, it pays to keep glancing up at the poll, btw.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will come back to you on all of this but for the moment I can only make a few brief comments before I dash off to get pissed (just finished my finals).

All I would say is that your theoretical appreciation of industrial relations is self-serving and reductive to the point of being an irrelevant truism. The issues here revolve around the nature of the industrial action and how it is being run. k_s makes some salient points about research and publication obligations that I would agree with but before I add anything else I need to get drunk.

p.s. Tedix - do you realise how idiotic it is to belittle something that I have worked fucking hard for over four years. Furthermore it is hypocritical to try and label students selfish while saying that the academics have a just cause. Surely it's obvious that both are acting in their own self-interest.


----------



## Santino (May 15, 2006)

I've made this point already, but no one seemed to respond to it, so I'l say it again in a different way. Why should lecturers expect to be paid at the moment if they are withholding their labour?


----------



## JKKne (May 15, 2006)

Alex B said:
			
		

> I've made this point already, but no one seemed to respond to it, so I'l say it again in a different way. Why should lecturers expect to be paid at the moment if they are withholding their labour?



Depending on the University, they aren't


----------



## llantwit (May 15, 2006)

k_s said:
			
		

> But their labour in terms of marking exams is not economically productive in the same way their research output is. And they're not witholding knowledge, they are witholding degrees, which are conflated with knowledge out here in the real world. Surely stopping research work would hit vice chancellors harder?
> And yes my degree is 'oh so precious', it is what i have been working for for the past three years. The idea that lecturers can so callously withdraw the right of students to get what they have earned doesn't sit well.



All I can do is assure you that they haven't 'callously' done anything - if you think that then I suggest you talk to some of the lecturers involved with the action (just don't accuse them of callous behaviour from the outset, otherwise any dialogue might well be cut short). Like I said before - they do this really unwillingly. They don't WANT to harm students.

On the question of withdrawing research labour - that's a good point. My guess about this would be that they didn't go down this road because it would only have any real effect around the time of the RAE, which is a while off still. Would like to find out more about this, though. I think that you're right in assuming it would have a far more disruptive effect as far as money coming into the Uni goes - maybe too disruptive for the unions to go for? I don't know.


----------



## Santino (May 15, 2006)

JKKne said:
			
		

> Depending on the University, they aren't


But are the lecturers _expecting_ to be paid? Are they going to be shocked if they open their pay slip and find it a bit light?


----------



## JKKne (May 15, 2006)

Alex B said:
			
		

> But are the lecturers _expecting_ to be paid? Are they going to be shocked if they open their pay slip and find it a bit light?



My friend lectures in Local Studies at Northumbria and they've been told they won't be paid. I think its the same for quite a few others too


----------



## llantwit (May 15, 2006)

Diamond said:
			
		

> ...
> All I would say is that your theoretical appreciation of industrial relations is self-serving and reductive to the point of being an irrelevant truism. The issues here revolve around the nature of the industrial action and how it is being run. k_s makes some salient points about research and publication obligations that I would agree with but before I add anything else I need to get drunk.
> ...QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## strung out (May 15, 2006)

Diamond said:
			
		

> p.s. Tedix - do you realise how idiotic it is to belittle something that I have worked fucking hard for over four years. Furthermore it is hypocritical to try and label students selfish while saying that the academics have a just cause. Surely it's obvious that both are acting in their own self-interest.


I'm just about to graduate after four years of university as well, so don't fucking give me all this "I've worked fucking hard" bullshit. What difference will it make to your life, realistically, if you get your degree delayed by a few months? Near to nothing. It's your selfish "but I've worked so hard for this" crap that the institutions are using to emotionally blackmail many lecturers into not striking with. If the lecturers were made to feel less guilty about wanting to get paid a fair wage, then this problem would have been solved years ago at far less inconvenience to everyone.


----------



## llantwit (May 15, 2006)

Alex B said:
			
		

> But are the lecturers _expecting_ to be paid? Are they going to be shocked if they open their pay slip and find it a bit light?


What the fuck? Of course they know that by taking industrial action they might not get payed for the work they don't do. Are you suggesting the thought hadn't occurred to them?


----------



## Dowie (May 15, 2006)

k_s said:
			
		

> But their labour in terms of marking exams is not economically productive in the same way their research output is. And they're not witholding knowledge, they are witholding degrees, which are conflated with knowledge out here in the real world. Surely stopping research work would hit vice chancellors harder?



Totally agree - if they are going for a half-baked strike option then why take it out on the students? Holding back on all publications and research is surely an alternative option and doesn't affect others - the dispute is between them and the universities so I don't see why the students have to be dragged into it.

I really don't agree with comments that students who don't support the strike are being selfish - if anything lecturers stopping students from graduating as part of a pay dispute are being rather selfish.


----------



## JKKne (May 15, 2006)

I was initially surprised at the NUS not supporting the strike but then again, they don't really have any influence or point anymore


----------



## Nemo (May 15, 2006)

Diamond said:
			
		

> Out of interest what's your take on the failure to ballot the members on the 12.6%?



I'm not surprised in the least; the offer (12.9% over three years iirc) only amounted to a tiny real increase, and given that the whole premise of this strike is that lecturers' pay has lagged behind, it's hardly likely to placate people.




			
				Dowie said:
			
		

> Holding back on all publications and research is surely an alternative option and doesn't affect others



How long do you think that that would take to work? The whole thing would drag on for months and the universities could probably go for a year or so before even feeling anything.



> if anything lecturers stopping students from graduating as part of a pay dispute are being rather selfish.



I think the chances are that the vast majority of graduations will happen anyway, even if it's with a partial transcript. But more generally, how else are the lecturers supposed to put pressure on their employers? If it doesn't hit them somewhere, it doesn't work.




			
				JKKne said:
			
		

> I was initially surprised at the NUS not supporting the strike but then again, they don't really have any influence or point anymore



NUS are indeed a load of crap. I'm increasingly of the view that they achieve very little and certainly don't justify the affiliation fees.


----------



## JKKne (May 15, 2006)

From what I can gather my local NUS branch makes a potload of money, spends nothing on its facilities and is only ever noticed when elections come up, in which I doubt anyone apart from candidates friends vote

Plots NUS coup


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2006)

Do I support the strike? Yep.

Does it affect me? Yep.

Am I arsed about it having a bad effect? Not at all. In the scheme of things it makes little difference.

I hope that if any of those people on Urban who *don't* support the strike ever become lecturers that they'll find out how much this strike benefitted their wage packet and hand that sum back to the pay dept, or pay it into union funds, but I doubt they will. Such people are usually self-interested hypocrites.


----------



## k_s (May 15, 2006)

JKKne said:
			
		

> From what I can gather my local NUS branch makes a potload of money, spends nothing on its facilities and is only ever noticed when elections come up, in which I doubt anyone apart from candidates friends vote
> 
> Plots NUS coup



Yes yes yes. Imagine an NUS not run entirely by soulless public school cunts who just want something to put on their CV next to their three years with the lacrosse team. My university's student union spends most of its time encouraging life-threatening levels of drinking in exchange for big fat cheques from all the evil nightclubs.


----------



## k_s (May 15, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I suspect, you see, that you'd be making similar arguments about any industrial action. If this is true then I'm not going to waste my 'self-serving', 'reductive', and irrelevant' little brain on a thatcherite little pondscum lickspittle.




Now really, claiming diamond opposes all industrial action just because she has problems with one specific (and lets be honest, atypical) strike action _is_ reductive isn't it? I think we can do away with the inverted commas. Also, pondscum is not an adjective. Sorry.


----------



## catinthehat (May 15, 2006)

Totally support them.  Lecturers in uni are getting the same attacks that lecturers in FE have had on their pay and conditions since incorporation.  None of the lecturers I know are that interested in the cash side of things but they do get very pissed at the constant additions to workload, bigger classes, more teaching hours, more paperwork, more meetings and less time with students.  All my marking is done at home - as I suspect is the case in HE.  My contract is for 38 hours and I never do less than 50 - its the same with everyone I work with.  FE staff didnt fight back - much - and now they pretty much do what they like with us.  I would like to think that at some point academic staff across the whole spectrum start to fight back because ultimately its about protecting the idea of education, research, thinking.  Students dont matter to the policy makers and enforcers despite their endless banging on about it - its the data they produce which means plenty of arses on seats (recruitment) keeping them on the course (retention) and ensuring they pass (acheivement) - throw in competition and performance pay and you have students on the wrong courses being pulled through and passed at all costs and an increasingly dumbed down curriculum.  One of Blairs projects is to try and make the UK a global flogger of education so theres cash for short term projects, initiative overload and money for grand schemes that never go anywhere. Core "business" suffers. Lecturers are just about the last bastion where any kind of fight back is possible but imho its a lost battle already.  The whole edifice depends on the massive amounts of free labour donated by lecturers.  Im pretty certain that most of the students looking for work post graduation would not be happy with taking a job where you are routinely expected to donate evenings and weekends for no pay - yes you maybe will notice if your marks are not released (and note that the HE lecturers are not refusing to do the marking its just that they are not going to pass on the marks so they are still doing the work) - but you would notice more if your lecturers only worked their paid hours.  This industrial action is far from a selfish campaign for more cash.


----------



## JKKne (May 15, 2006)

k_s said:
			
		

> Yes yes yes. Imagine an NUS not run entirely by soulless public school cunts who just want something to put on their CV next to their three years with the lacrosse team. My university's student union spends most of its time encouraging life-threatening levels of drinking in exchange for big fat cheques from all the evil nightclubs.



Where did it all go wrong

That's probably another thread, not worth of derailing this one


----------



## Nemo (May 15, 2006)

JKKne said:
			
		

> Where did it all go wrong



1922?


----------



## JKKne (May 15, 2006)

Nemo said:
			
		

> 1922?



I was thinking 1945


----------



## llantwit (May 16, 2006)

k_s said:
			
		

> Now really, claiming diamond opposes all industrial action just because she has problems with one specific (and lets be honest, atypical) strike action _is_ reductive isn't it? I think we can do away with the inverted commas. Also, pondscum is not an adjective. Sorry.


If you'd quoted the rest of the post you'd see that I posed it as a question. A genuine one - but one that I 'suspect' I know the answer to. I might, of course be wrong. Diamond might well only support industrial actions that don't affect her.
This is a common affliction, and one that can be avoided by a bit of fellow-feeling, empathy, and good old solidarity aided by the knowledge that you too might one day have to take industrial action and rely on the support of people in your community who will be adversely affected by said action.
The quotation marks are to highlight exactly how arrogant and offensive diamond is being - I am after all, quoting her.
The hyperbolic offensive (and grammatically incorrect - that education you paid for wasn't all for nothing was it?) insults are also to highlight to Diamond what it feels like to have someone go over the top in their condemnation of you (something that Diamond has done to lecturers in general in the most offensive manner from the start of this thread).


----------



## Nemo (May 16, 2006)

And the VC of UEA is acting like a Union-busting cunt.


----------



## JKKne (May 16, 2006)

Well I though the Vice Chancellors fully deserved their 28% pay rise

*cough*

Edit to add...I was asked to leave my own University Union Bar this morning after I posted an article on the NSU web page attacking the local NUS decision not to support the strike, the actual NUS President, supported it.

So, I asked to see our Puppet President, and he came down, and I told him what I thought of him and his mates, and that the Union is falling down, in disrepair and generally shit and thay you only ever see he and his cronies when its election time and that they were being spineless, and he went in a total huff and said I should leave now 

Then I get an email from the Vice Chancellors Office warning me over my conduct (they're actually in bed together...Union and Chancellor)

fuckers


----------



## nino_savatte (May 16, 2006)

Idris2002 said:
			
		

> This isn't a strike. It's action short of a strike.
> 
> And btw, students, coming on with an arrogant spoilt brat sense of entitlement is not the best way to endear yourselves to your overworked, underpaid lecturers.
> 
> Learn a bit of fucking manners, stop smoking hash, hand your fucking essays in on time, and be fucking grateful.




Well said.


----------



## Azrael23 (May 16, 2006)

JKKne said:
			
		

> Well I though the Vice Chancellors fully deserved their 28% pay rise
> 
> *cough*
> 
> ...



 Reminds of the discussions here about the new "no platform" policy. All these trumped up bleeding heart fools, were trying to claim that we needed a no platform policy in order to stop racism (none of which had occurred BTW)..... idiots. What the hell is a university if you can`t discuss political issues in an open forum? Its like cutting everyones hands off at birth to stop gun crime!

 I don`t get involved anymore, I do my own thing because theres often a lot of ego politics going on. A symptom of hierarchy I guess!  

 As far as the strikes concerned, I support it. I think lecturers have a pleasant lifestyle but at the same time they work a lot of hours unpaid, many people blame the lack of time spent on each paper on that. I can name at least 3 lecturers who I could see sat at home, spliff in hand, marking with a hazy grin. 
  Higher pay will mean more people attracted to the job, therefore a better standard of lecturer. In theory.
 Truly educating lecturers are a rare breed, most are quite cardboard to be honest. Inspiration is hard to find especially in the sciences.  

 Its good to see people stand up for themselves.


----------



## bluestreak (May 16, 2006)

i find it sickening how many students don't support this strike.  students today are all fucking careerists it seems to me.  fuck 'em.


----------



## Nemo (May 16, 2006)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> i find it sickening how many students don't support this strike.  students today are all fucking careerists it seems to me.  fuck 'em.



Sadly very true.  

It almost makes me glad I'll be leaving soon.


----------



## strung out (May 18, 2006)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> i find it sickening how many students don't support this strike.  students today are all fucking careerists it seems to me.  fuck 'em.


not _all_ students


----------



## equationgirl (May 18, 2006)

As an aside, my uni made a local pay offer yesterday. The offer is STILL 12.6 % over 3 years, but they've made some change so there's more money sooner rather than later:

3.5% in August 2006
2.5% in February 2007
3.5% in August 2007
3.1% in August 2008

The offer was accompanied by an email from HR asking staff 'to consider the implications of their actions'. As one member of staff said to me last night 'why do they think we voted to take action short of strike anyway? For a laugh? We know the implications of our actions, and it's the only bargaining tool we've got right now'. Result - even more staff pissed off with University management, chances of a pay agreement being reached rapidly disappearing and general discontentment all round.

Staff at my uni are particularly disgruntled as our Principal has received a payrise  of around 14% for the last three years in a row, has never said he'll only take what the staff get, and through his 'visions' has driven the University £21m into the red.


----------



## sorearm (May 19, 2006)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> As an aside, my uni made a local pay offer yesterday. The offer is STILL 12.6 % over 3 years, but they've made some change so there's more money sooner rather than later:
> 
> 3.5% in August 2006
> 2.5% in February 2007
> ...


----------



## equationgirl (May 19, 2006)

I keep threatening to stage a coup and become Principal myself at uni. Funnily enough, several people have said I'd give the Management Execuitve the arsekicking they in are desparate need.

* starts EG for Principal campaign *


----------



## llantwit (May 19, 2006)

My university's VC has 'earned' a whopping 60% increase in salary over the last three years, including an eye-popping 40.5% increase last year. He's now on £205,000 a year. 
Nice work if you can get it.
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/1100education/tm_objectid=16790417&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=who-earns-more--tony-blair-or--cardiff-uni-boss--name_page.html
Good luck with yer campaign EG!


----------



## nino_savatte (May 19, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> My university's VC has 'earned' a whopping 60% increase in salary over the last three years, including an eye-popping 40.5% increase last year. He's now on £205,000 a year.
> Nice work if you can get it.
> http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/1100education/tm_objectid=16790417&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=who-earns-more--tony-blair-or--cardiff-uni-boss--name_page.html
> Good luck with yer campaign EG!



This is the problem with the new marketised universities (FE colleges are the same iin this regard): you have senior management swanning about on 6 figure salaries, while lecturing staff get a fraction of that.  There is no justification for these sorts of pay raises for senior management.


----------



## equationgirl (May 19, 2006)

In the last set of accounts, the figures for staffing show that year-on-year, the numbers of academic staff we have is decreasing whereas the numbers are administrative staff are increasing. Also, the number of staff on more than £70,000 a year keeps going up, and has done for the last 5 years.

I'm 33, and just about to finish my PhD. If I wanted to be an academic, I would have to do an estimated 3-5 years as a postdoc researcher (on fixed term contracts, approximately 25k per annum in the UK, although may universities prefer to hire lower than that, say 22k) with no job security, and whilst I was on those contracts, publish around 20-30 papers, bring in around 6 figures worth of research funding, supervise a couple of phd students as well as several masters and undergraduate projects, gain teaching experience (probably the crappy courses that no-one else wants to teach) before I could even consider applying for a lectureship. And god help me if I wanted to have a family or any kind of life.

Then the government complains there's not enough women in science, or that there's a braindrain


----------



## nino_savatte (May 19, 2006)

Universities and colleges that are top heavy with admin staff exist solely to provide sets of statistics to government ministers ,who use the figures to claim that the government's 'policies' are working. Of course, governments don't really trust the public sector to run its own affairs and the sector has been subjected to the most intense (and often pointless) forms of scrutiny. The amount of paperwork that has to be generated is absolutely staggering and it serves only one purpose: to attract funding and thereby justify the university's continued existence.


----------



## JKKne (May 19, 2006)

Ohh, I'm mad

My fucking Union President (some twat called Spike) who you never see, bar at voting time or if there's a celeb in town has appeared in the local paper with 2 cronies and some friends demanding the lecturers come off strike as they are causing extra stress (wankers!)

Yet, at the Uni the lecturers have handed over all of the exam papers. They will go ahead as planned

Anyway this Spike claimed that no-one on campus supported the strike and the lecturers were toying with futures

I'm seriously seriously considering trying to get a vote of no confidence but through but I don't think anyone gives a toss as long as they keep the 99p pisswater the passes for beer


----------



## strung out (May 19, 2006)

that is absolutely disgraceful


----------



## JKKne (May 19, 2006)

Tedix said:
			
		

> that is absolutely disgraceful



I've asked to see him to get him to explain the comments and point out that he has contradicted the actual President of the NUS

I know he'll refuse because he's spineless

There's talk of releasing an alternative pro-lecturer statement to the local press and to the University

I'd certainly be happy to be part of that, seen quite a few striking Private Eye stuff we can use

Anything but that muppet embarassing the student body


----------



## tom_craggs (May 19, 2006)

Lecturers were striking when I took my finals and during the time I was doing my Dissertation and frankly I didn't affect me one bit. Lecturers gave me far more of their time personal time than I ever lost out of strikes. The concept that delaying getting my results would provide additional stress was totally wrong in my case...I wasn't thinking about results at all, just getting the work done...no matter when I got them the results would have been the same. 

As people have said there are a great deal of self centred students and I say that as one who has left university within the last 2 years. I don't agree with tuition fees, but I don't believe they mean I can make un reasonable demands on my lecturers who deserve every penny of a 25% increase and more, many students I spoke to took the attitude thayt becasue they were paying they could make consumerist demands....having said that there were plenty who supported the strikes.


----------



## tom_craggs (May 19, 2006)

NUS....my NUS president was elected because he proposed a new beer garden. I have no faith in the political pressure or commitment of NUS anymore.


----------



## Nemo (May 19, 2006)

JKKne said:
			
		

> I've asked to see him to get him to explain the comments and point out that he has contradicted the actual President of the NUS
> 
> I know he'll refuse because he's spineless
> 
> ...



I don't think it'd make any difference; our Union is supporting the strike, and there are a lot of people moaning about it and implying that the entire body of Union officers is involved in some kind of elaborate conspiracy against student interests.


----------



## equationgirl (May 20, 2006)

Certainly some of the final year students are getting very worried about what is going to happen. I'm fairly certain the exam papers are already written (they have to be quite far in advance anyway each year), and apparently our university Secretary has had a meeting with some of the finalists to try and reassure them. He says the university admin is concerned primarily with two departments within the university who are holding out whilst the rest of the university may be looking to comply with the local pay offer made. He also said contingencies have been made in case of action short of strike going ahead, although these weren't specified.

The AUT are not happy with a local pay agreement being reached as then this could weaken the whole national position (it being a bit like a row of dominos I think - one goes, they all start to go).

Glasgow School of Art finalists have been in the papers saying they are unhappy about their final degree shows, which may be cancelled as there are not enough specialist non-AUT markers available to give an accurate assessment of their work.

I can see it turning nasty to be honest.


----------



## fogbat (May 20, 2006)

I have my finals in less than a week. 

University admin playing "chicken" with the AUT was really fucking ugly, and has substantially affected my revision.  For the last week I've not known either way whether my exams will be going ahead.

Finally I've had the worst possible news, and found out that they are going ahead.

Still support the lecturers' strike.  They've been fucked over for far, far too long.


----------



## tom_craggs (May 20, 2006)

k_s said:
			
		

> Yeah, but fuck people in the north- real people's futures are at stake here.



In what way exactly? At no point was my future at stake when the lecturers were striking during my dissertation and finals. I really cannot see this arguement at all. Having said that I have never planned to walk straight out of a University into a career job so it didn't matter if my results or exams were delayed a little. 

I just don't accept that for the majority of people this will cause a distraction or a worry big enough for them to mess up their exams...if they cannot cope with the pressure of this I think they would be struggling to pass finals anyway to be honest.

I have to say how frustrated I get when I hear students talking like this, if and when you get your degree it will be down to your hard work but also down to the hard work of your lecturers. Its got to the stage when they have no choice but to take the hard line and students should support them in my mind, this is not a political action its a straight forward issue - they have screwed over for years and its time to take a hard line. 

12.5% was a poor offer, one which was thought very unlikely to be accepted at ballot, so why waste time and negotiating ground? Frankly if your a student get behind the strike if you want this resolved quickly and don't use it as an excuse to build the pressure on yourselves; you will have enough of that as it is and delayed exams and results are not as stressful as not knowing the answers in the exams so concentrate on that.


----------



## Masseuse (May 20, 2006)

The trend now EG - which isn't even being addressed in this strike - is to build whole departments around part-time teaching.  So the prospect of a full-time job is slowly decreasing because when a lecturer leaves it is tempting to save some of the budget by advertising for a replacement as a part-time hourly paid lecturer.  This basically means the job is filled by someone for half the salary on short term contracts.

Naturally the students will expect full-time attention to be paid to the running and updating of the modules they have paid good money to take.  But increasingly (certainly at the uni i am thinking of) the materials, set texts and lectures are many years old and out of date - simply because someone employed on a part-time basis only has enough hours in the contract to teach and mark - not to actually keep the course content itself up to scratch.

The current pay dispute involves people who are actually lucky enough to have a full-time lectureship.  The people at the bottom of the pile in academia are the part-time hourly paid lot who do the job of full-time people for half the money.  You'll be lucky to pull in 8 grand a year working this way, but for many it is the only option open to them.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 20, 2006)

tom_craggs said:
			
		

> NUS....my NUS president was elected because he proposed a new beer garden. I have no faith in the political pressure or commitment of NUS anymore.



That has been the problem since the early 90's with the NUS; the union has largely become depoliticised and exists mainly as a conduit to Parliamentary selection. This was Thatcher's doing, she wanted to crush any opposition to her rule and the NUS was seen as a soft target. Student Union buildings are named after no mark celebrities these days and not political figures.


----------



## Nemo (May 20, 2006)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Student Union buildings are named after no mark celebrities these days and not political figures.



Several of our bars are named after revolutionaries, although afaik they were named a number of years ago. None named after celebs thank fuck.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 20, 2006)

Nemo said:
			
		

> Several of our bars are named after revolutionaries, although afaik they were named a number of years ago. None named after celebs thank fuck.



When I was an undergraduate at Newcastle Poly (as it was called then), our SU building had the same name as many others: The Nelson Mandela Building.   I remember reading somewhere about an SU who named their building after Jim Bowen...wtf???


----------



## equationgirl (May 20, 2006)

Masseuse said:
			
		

> The trend now EG - which isn't even being addressed in this strike - is to build whole departments around part-time teaching.  So the prospect of a full-time job is slowly decreasing because when a lecturer leaves it is tempting to save some of the budget by advertising for a replacement as a part-time hourly paid lecturer.  This basically means the job is filled by someone for half the salary on short term contracts.
> 
> Naturally the students will expect full-time attention to be paid to the running and updating of the modules they have paid good money to take.  But increasingly (certainly at the uni i am thinking of) the materials, set texts and lectures are many years old and out of date - simply because someone employed on a part-time basis only has enough hours in the contract to teach and mark - not to actually keep the course content itself up to scratch.
> 
> The current pay dispute involves people who are actually lucky enough to have a full-time lectureship.  The people at the bottom of the pile in academia are the part-time hourly paid lot who do the job of full-time people for half the money.  You'll be lucky to pull in 8 grand a year working this way, but for many it is the only option open to them.




You're right Masseuse - I had noticed a growing tend in some of my uni's departments for 'Teaching fellowship' posts, also on fixed term contracts, but admittledly, hadn't really though much of it. The whole structure needs a complete overhaul at the moment - at my uni permanent staff are operating an old boys network that makes it nigh on impossible for anyone who isn't already permanent to become so, even if it means keeping positions unfilled.


----------



## Roadkill (May 20, 2006)

Chatting to students in Hull, I was actually pleasantly surprised how many of them did support the 'action short of a strike' - or, if they didn't actively support it, at least didn't express the sort of 'me me me' attitude that's all too common these days.  

I'm not teaching staff (and not in the union yet  ), so it doesn't really affect me, but I certainly do support it.  For what they're expected to do, lecturers are well underpaid.  All this bollocks about how much time off they get, how little work they do and how arrogant they supposedly are is just that: bollocks.  Pretty much every academic I know works well beyond their contracted hours, there's more and more pressure (via the RAE) to keep churning out publications, and anyone who thinks that lecturers get the vacations to laze around really doesn't know waht they're talking about...

Of course it's rough on students that some graduations will be affected by the action, but since when have strikes not inconvenienced anyone?  That's the whole idea, FFS.  If the employers would get off their arses, start negotiating sensibly and produce a fair pay offer, then the problem would go away.


----------



## jbob (May 20, 2006)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> I'm not teaching staff (and not in the union yet  ), so it doesn't really affect me, but I certainly do support it.  For what they're expected to do, lecturers are well underpaid.  All this bollocks about how much time off they get, how little work they do and how arrogant they supposedly are is just that: bollocks.  Pretty much every academic I know works well beyond their contracted hours, there's more and more pressure (via the RAE) to keep churning out publications, and anyone who thinks that lecturers get the vacations to laze around really doesn't know waht they're talking about...



Too true. I work at a uni and I've never seen this stereotype that some students seem to have about lecturers. What I have seen is the sheer amount of time they dedicate to pastoral care for students who seem unable to cope with even the most minor hassles that life presents to them.


----------



## Roadkill (May 20, 2006)

Masseuse said:
			
		

> The trend now EG - which isn't even being addressed in this strike - is to build whole departments around part-time teaching.  So the prospect of a full-time job is slowly decreasing because when a lecturer leaves it is tempting to save some of the budget by advertising for a replacement as a part-time hourly paid lecturer.  This basically means the job is filled by someone for half the salary on short term contracts.
> 
> ....
> 
> The current pay dispute involves people who are actually lucky enough to have a full-time lectureship.  The people at the bottom of the pile in academia are the part-time hourly paid lot who do the job of full-time people for half the money.  You'll be lucky to pull in 8 grand a year working this way, but for many it is the only option open to them.



This is very true.

I think it varies between universities though.  Some, especially the ones that are struggling financially or academically, are doing it a lot, others are just using hourly-paid staff to assist lecturers with seminars and so on on very popular courses. It's not altogether a bad thing IMO, provided it's not excessive, and hourly-paid teachers don't actually come to replace full-time lecturers.  I taught undergraduates and adult ed whilst doing my PhD.  It was a handy second income and good teaching experience for me - and these days, teaching experience is pretty much vital for getting a lectureship in certain subjects - and it took some of the pressure off the main course tutor.  Swings and roundabouts really.

Just to expand on a point made several times above, one thing to bear in mind about academics' pay is that academic careers start pretty late.  I'm 27 and I've only just got a full-time position, and many people start much later than that.  If you leave uni at 21, spend a year on a masters, another 3-4 years on a PhD, maybe take a year out somewhere along the line ... most people don't actually get lectureships until they're in their 30 odd, and junior lecturers are generally on short contracts so there's little job security until you get well into your 30s.  A lot of people I went to uni with are in 25-30k a year and in some cases have been for a few years now: meanwhile, I've been working my arse off getting a PhD and doing bar work for less than 10k a year.  Most jobs that require that sort of length of training pay far better than academia does...


----------



## George & Bill (May 21, 2006)

I thought the third option said 'I don't support striking lecturers'


----------



## Cerisa (May 21, 2006)

it's a really weird issue and a big deal at my uni cos we offer a lot of professional qualifications along  with humanities etc - like teaching, radiologists etc. our SU president hasn't helped much by releasing a statement to the local press condemning it - just ego-wank really. mostly i support them but if i was in my last year i might see things differently...


----------



## JKKne (May 21, 2006)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> When I was an undergraduate at Newcastle Poly (as it was called then), our SU building had the same name as many others: The Nelson Mandela Building.   I remember reading somewhere about an SU who named their building after Jim Bowen...wtf???



From what I can gather Northumbria (Newcastle Poly) had a rebrand 3 years ago

The main wooden seated plastic glass sticky floor bar is called Reds, then they have Bar One..official title...Bar One Featuring Costa Coffee confused: ) and then Venue and Stage 2

Kudos to Newcastle though...their cheapest mucky bar at Uni is called...MENS! (I imagine its manly  )


----------



## nino_savatte (May 22, 2006)

JKKne said:
			
		

> From what I can gather Northumbria (Newcastle Poly) had a rebrand 3 years ago
> 
> The main wooden seated plastic glass sticky floor bar is called Reds, then they have Bar One..official title...Bar One Featuring Costa Coffee confused: ) and then Venue and Stage 2
> 
> Kudos to Newcastle though...their cheapest mucky bar at Uni is called...MENS! (I imagine its manly  )



It was never a brilliant building. There was a leak over the dance floor that was never repaired in the 3 years that I was there.


----------



## Vintage Paw (May 27, 2006)

My other half's in the AUT and ballotted in favour of the initial strike and then action short of a strike, and I am a student, so I guess I am in a bit of a unique position.

Anyway, I completely 100% support the lecturers. My lecturers go out of their way to help us, and there are some idiot pillocks on my course who don't deserve it  

Our uni's NUS is a pile of wank and I am ashamed to supposedly be 'represented' by them. I have had email 'conversations' with the president and he is a complete careerist dick. 

Our VC routinely sends out emails to the whole student body stating that they are doing everything possible to minimise the impact on students by the evil lecturers and their action. Of course, they like to put in at the end that naturally many students will be affected terribly by it.

I think my department is quite active in all of this. I am pretty sure our school is one of the only ones in the uni to have had all the exams postponed (should have had mine this week, probably won't have to sit them until August now), and the lecturers are often scurrying off inbetween classes to AUT meetings in various lecture rooms. The morning after the laughable 12-something% offer came in I heard them talking about how it was offensive and there was no way they were accepting such a slap in the face. Good on them I say  

Some students did a bit of a 'sit-in' in the uni carparks on Thursday. Hmm, that's going to get you your degree quicker!

And seriously, could the media attention possibly be more slanted towards the managements favour?

I gets so angry, I really does


----------



## strung out (May 28, 2006)

very well said mate


----------



## subversplat (May 28, 2006)

The markers are on strike?! But what will they write on the whiteboards with?

(apologies if done )

(actually, apologies anyway  )


----------



## Onslow (May 28, 2006)

I've always been quite dubious when it comes to things like this. Before you choose whatever career it is your wishing to pursue, most people tend to do some research around it, basic stuff such as, oh lets say the pay, the number of hours worked, holidays etc.

So with that in mind, you pick a profession, get your qualifications, and eventually you get the job that you've always hoped for. Now what baffles me is, you knew the sort of pay that you would be getting before you take the job, so it seems slightly odd that once your in the job you decide to strike for higher pay. 

If you're not happy with the pay you should have chosen a profession that pays a higher wage, or just accept the wage you get for the job you're doing.


----------



## subversplat (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> I've always been quite dubious when it comes to things like this. Before you choose whatever career it is your wishing to pursue, most people tend to do some research around it, basic stuff such as, oh lets say the pay, the number of hours worked, holidays etc.
> 
> So with that in mind, you pick a profession, get your qualifications, and eventually you get the job that you've always hoped for. Now what baffles me is, you knew the sort of pay that you would be getting before you take the job, so it seems slightly odd that once your in the job you decide to strike for higher pay.
> 
> If you're not happy with the pay you should have chosen a profession that pays a higher wage, or just accept the wage you get for the job you're doing.


Things get more expensive as days go by, other wages go up accordingly, profits go up everywhere immeasurably, your wages don't move much at all. You're going to be pissed off, no?


----------



## Masseuse (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> I've always been quite dubious when it comes to things like this. Before you choose whatever career it is your wishing to pursue, most people tend to do some research around it, basic stuff such as, oh lets say the pay, the number of hours worked, holidays etc.
> 
> So with that in mind, you pick a profession, get your qualifications, and eventually you get the job that you've always hoped for. Now what baffles me is, you knew the sort of pay that you would be getting before you take the job, so it seems slightly odd that once your in the job you decide to strike for higher pay.
> 
> If you're not happy with the pay you should have chosen a profession that pays a higher wage, or just accept the wage you get for the job you're doing.



Yep, don't try to change anything kids!


----------



## Onslow (May 28, 2006)

The importance of academics cannot be denied, however surely it should be the pursuit of knowlege and research that motivates them and not money.


----------



## Masseuse (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> The importance of academics cannot be denied, however surely it should be the pursuit of knowlege and research that motivates them and not money.



Fuck off you condescending little wanker.


----------



## subversplat (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> The importance of academics cannot be denied, however surely it should be the pursuit of knowlege and research that motivates them and not money.


There's always going to be a level where the importance of academics just doesn't put the food on the table, and perhaps a move into the private sector would be called for. I remember a clip on the TV (to be honest I'm not completly clued up on this particular strike so I'm only going on the bits I've heard) saying that they've not had a substantial pay increase for 10 years! That's quite a lot of sacrifice to go through in the name of acedemics


----------



## Masseuse (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> The importance of academics cannot be denied, however surely it should be the pursuit of knowlege and research that motivates them and not money.



Well as their pay is so shit it's obviously NOT that that's got them into the profession is it?  Jesus wanking Christ.


----------



## Onslow (May 28, 2006)

I dont think you can really call their pay shit though.

Its above the average.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> I dont think you can really call their pay shit though.
> 
> Its above the average.



Lecturer's pay is shit for what they do and compared to other professions it lags well behind. The pay in FE is even worse. But I don't suppose you are one of those who values the work done in universities by lecturing staff. Would you mark all those badly written essays and assignments for shite pay? I'll bet you wouldn't. In fact, I'll bet you're already lined up for some nice private sector job with a salary that pisses all over lecturer's pay.

Who deserves to be paid better? The managers or the lecturing staff who are doing the real work? If you said "managers", go to the back of the class...in fact, get the fuck out of my class!


----------



## Masseuse (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> I dont think you can really call their pay shit though.
> 
> Its above the average.



The average for what?

Oh don't bother - you keep your cosy smug little ideas.  Good luck to you.  It's because of people like you that this world will eventually be sucked into the teeth of hell.  Cheers.


----------



## Onslow (May 28, 2006)

Above the average earnings for those employed in the U.K.

I think peoples' thirst for more and more of what they cant have, along with greed will have more to do with the demise of the world than little old me.

I m not currently working within the private sector, i am in fact being taught by the very same people i am in opposition too.


----------



## Masseuse (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> I m not currently working within the private sector, i am in fact being taught by the very same people i am in opposition too.



Always nice to see people opposing the workers.  

You soulless degraded shrimpcock.


----------



## strung out (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> I m not currently working within the private sector, i am in fact being taught by the very same people i am in opposition too.


I get you now, you're one of those selfish students who can't bear too see their degree delayed by a month or two


----------



## scathed (May 28, 2006)

I'm swinging neither way. I don't think the strike or the lack of pay is the problem we should be arguing here. In fact the real problem is: why is more than 50% of 20 year olds getting degrees? It only depreciates the value of what a degree is worth in the long run. 

When you're bunched up in a lecture hall filled with 400 students and you can noticeably see that 30% of them didn't even get C grades in their GCSEs, it makes you wonder what on earth is going on. I certainly would be asking for extra pay if I had to teach a mass of morons who expect to be paid double your pay.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> Above the average earnings for those employed in the U.K.
> 
> I think peoples' thirst for more and more of what they cant have, along with greed will have more to do with the demise of the world than little old me.
> 
> I m not currently working within the private sector, i am in fact being taught by the very same people i am in opposition too.



So you are in education but hate the people who teach you. It sounds like your problem is based upon personal antipathy rather than anything rational.

What happened? Get a bad mark or were you caught plagiarising?


----------



## Masseuse (May 28, 2006)

scathed said:
			
		

> I'm swinging neither way. I don't think the strike or the lack of pay is the problem we should be arguing here. In fact the real problem is: why is more than 50% of 20 year olds getting degrees? It only depreciates the value of what a degree is worth in the long run.
> 
> When you're bunched up in a lecture hall filled with 400 students and you can noticeably see that 30% of them didn't even get C grades in their GCSEs, it makes you wonder what on earth is going on. I certainly would be asking for extra pay if I had to teach a mass morons who expect to be paid double your pay.



Different thread really, but there is a big problem with this.  I don't really go along with the idea of "depreciating the value of degrees" (bit elitist really), but it is truly demoralising to see the standard of work Mr Masseuse brings home at times.  Just so horrendous it's laughable.


----------



## Masseuse (May 28, 2006)

Masseuse said:
			
		

> Different thread really, but there is a big problem with this.  I don't really go along with the idea of "depreciating the value of degrees" (bit elitist really), but it is truly demoralising to see the standard of work Mr Masseuse brings home at times.  Just so horrendous it's laughable.



Er, that's not _his_ work btw lol  , but the work he is marking.


----------



## scathed (May 28, 2006)

You may consider it elitist. However, I do think that there should be advisors that tell kids "Hey, maybe you should go out and get a job and not pursue  higher education, afterall, you're truant, illiterate, bad tempered, obnoxious and disruptive, and plagiarizism is the only mode of submission from you... go and get yourself a reality check first.". 

Do you have any idea what it is like to literally and unavoidably be asked by a slacker (who you're not friends with): "Yeah, you done the work for........? Give it me, yeah?". That is depreciation.... that is my elitism, and that happened to me even in the 4th semester.

Who is going to employ, or more to the fact who will care what degree you got and what grade you have. When in a decade or two when the population will be saturated with idiots with degrees that don't even have th brain cells to justify or the capacity to spell the title of their degree (without a spell checker). 
Surely, I'm not being too extreme here, there must be someone with a voice that is fair and just that can see that what we have today cannot continue to go on. Just rationalize what I'm saying. I mean no harm.


----------



## subversplat (May 28, 2006)

scathed said:
			
		

> You may consider it elitist. However, I do think that there should be advisors that tell kids "Hey, maybe you should go out and get a job and not pursue  higher education, afterall, you're truant, illiterate, bad tempered, obnoxious and disruptive, and plagiarizism is the only mode of submission from you... go and get yourself a reality check first.".
> 
> Do you have any idea what it is like to literally and unavoidably be asked by a slacker (who you're not friends with): "Yeah, you done the work for........? Give it me, yeah?". That is depreciation.... that is my elitism, and that happened to me even in the 4th semester.
> 
> ...



Ah, but you seem to forget - you're in university for the joy of learning and appreciation of academics


----------



## equationgirl (May 28, 2006)

Some of the people now at university basically should not be there. They simply cannot cope with the workload. There is absolutely nothing wrong with not going to university - it shouldn't be for everybody, just like doing an apprenticeship shouldn't be for everybody.

There is nothing more soul destroying that trying to teach people and help people that don't want to learn, they just want to party. 

And, with the amount of debt many students are coming out with, fewer will be choosing a career in research as their debt levels will dictate that they take a paying position rather than a three year PhD studentship - and without a PhD you can't be an academic, shit pay or not.


----------



## Onslow (May 28, 2006)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> So you are in education but hate the people who teach you. It sounds like your problem is based upon personal antipathy rather than anything rational.
> 
> What happened? Get a bad mark or were you caught plagiarising?




I never once said that i hate my lecturers, quite the opposite, i just dont agree with their current behaviour, and besides my department isn't affected, however i have friends who are. I dont agree with jepordising other peoples job prospects just because you arn't happy with your own. Its not just the universities that these people are disrupting, its the students they have spent at least three years educating. Quite pointless if at the end of it all they cant be arsed to mark their efforts.

And Masseuse, what a decent well round person you come across as, insults such as "condescending little wanker" and a "souless degraded shrimpcock" aimed at someone who simply disagrees with your point of view. PM Subersplat for tips on how to reasonably put your point across you vulgar old beast.


----------



## Nemo (May 28, 2006)

Onslow, is it the principle of the action you object to or the fact that the academics have had the temerity to take action at a time when it might affect you? Out of interest, what do you think academics should do if they're dissatisfied with their pay and conditions?


----------



## puke (May 28, 2006)

It has royally fucked up some people though, like wannabe lawyers who have to fork out a £25 grand loan for some Legal Practice Course and are paying interest on it but not able to start because they havn't graduated. But all the law students I have met are cunts, and so are all the politics ones, and the sports students, and the pretentius english ones. In fact I don't much like the average student.


----------



## Onslow (May 28, 2006)

Its more so the fact that the academics have had the temerity to take action at a time when it might directly affect students. It is not the fault of the students.  They have deliberatly chosen a time were maximum damange can be done to them. 

Surely there are measures or methods that could be undertaken were the emphasis is shifted away from the innocent students and focused soley on those  who are in positions of power, instead of affecting both.


----------



## Onslow (May 28, 2006)

puke said:
			
		

> It has royally fucked up some people though, like wannabe lawyers who have to fork out a £25 grand loan for some Legal Practice Course and are paying interest on it but not able to start because they havn't graduated. But all the law students I have met are cunts, and so are all the politics ones, and the sports students, and the pretentius english ones. In fact I don't much like the average student.



You sound like a right laugh.


----------



## puke (May 28, 2006)

Lucky my friends are above average though innit.


----------



## tom_craggs (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> Its more so the fact that the academics have had the temerity to take action at a time when it might directly affect students. It is not the fault of the students.  They have deliberatly chosen a time were maximum damange can be done to them.
> 
> Surely there are measures or methods that could be undertaken were the emphasis is shifted away from the innocent students and focused soley on those  who are in positions of power, instead of affecting both.



Again really thats the point of a strike to be honest. They are not attempting to damage the students and I have already explained why I do not believe it does damage students (based on my own experience) so I won't go over it again. Students should be engaged with this, they should be affected to stop them being so bloody apathetic about how they get their education and about who is responsible for delivering it...if students don't like it - put your weight behind the strikers and help get the situation resolved.


----------



## tom_craggs (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> The importance of academics cannot be denied, however surely it should be the pursuit of knowlege and research that motivates them and not money.



I have only just seen this. The right to demand a living wage is a right which should be open to all of us. Bread and roses.


----------



## tom_craggs (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> I dont agree with jepordising other peoples job prospects just because you arn't happy with your own.QUOTE]
> 
> I have never been provided with a adeqaute reason why this strike affects students job prospects.


----------



## Nemo (May 28, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> Its more so the fact that the academics have had the temerity to take action at a time when it might directly affect students. It is not the fault of the students.  They have deliberatly chosen a time were maximum damange can be done to them.



When should they take action then? Some time when there's no reason for the universities to settle so it lasts longer and is even more dispruptive?


----------



## Nemo (May 28, 2006)

tom_craggs said:
			
		

> Onslow said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ditto, and I'm a Students' Union officer and so hear regular complaints about the strike.


----------



## llantwit (May 28, 2006)

Masseuse said:
			
		

> Fuck off you condescending little wanker....
> You soulless degraded shrimpcock.


You're great, you are! 
My hero.


----------



## Nemo (May 28, 2006)

The comments on my university's blog system are a sight for sore eyes. I alternate between wanting to weep and wanting to smash something at the sheer short-sighted, selfish anti-unionism on display.


----------



## equationgirl (May 29, 2006)

The whole point of the strike is to cause maximum impact to university management. This hasn't just sprung up overnight - there was a strike day in March, and university management have in general tried to ignore the issue in the hope it would go away by this time.

Guess what, it hasn't, it's just got worse until management can't ignore it any longer.

The lecturers have been treated like shit for years, they've been backed into a corner and have had enough. So now they're fighting back.


----------



## strung out (May 29, 2006)

i agree with everything masseuse and equatiogirl have said on this thread 

I'd say some more apart from the fact i'm a bit pissed


----------



## Funky_monks (May 29, 2006)

By default I tend to support strike action by most parties.

However, it's very hard for me to find sympathy for lecturers. It appears that some of you find lecturers hardworking folk who care about their students. This certainly wan't the case when I was at uni (with one or two notable exceptions). One of the reasons I couldn't get out of uni quick enough after my masters was the massive egos bouncing off each other in Academia, I had intended to stay and do a PhD, but I didn't think I could spend a further three years amongst the people who would have ended up supervising me. 

Ate the end of the day, because there are such massive discrepancies between the pay for lecturers and management, i support the strike.

However, I still have limited sympathies for people who complain loudly that their 25K a year is a pittance, when, as a product of their education (and I went to two 'good' unis) the best I can do (and I have been looking, hard) is a 12k clerks job.


----------



## Masseuse (May 29, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> you vulgar old beast.



lol


----------



## tom_craggs (May 29, 2006)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> By default I tend to support strike action by most parties.
> 
> However, it's very hard for me to find sympathy for lecturers. It appears that some of you find lecturers hardworking folk who care about their students. This certainly wan't the case when I was at uni (with one or two notable exceptions). One of the reasons I couldn't get out of uni quick enough after my masters was the massive egos bouncing off each other in Academia, I had intended to stay and do a PhD, but I didn't think I could spend a further three years amongst the people who would have ended up supervising me.
> 
> ...




I didn't leave uni that long ago, 2 years or so. I haven't had a job that pays over £13,000 either but then the work I do doesn't warrent the amount lecturers should get paid, and its not really about me, its about them. I am not sure anyone would question that there are good and bad lecturers. In fact my lecturers were very good, my girlfriends lecturers were awful, and put in no effort, even when she asked for it and put the effort in....but she still supports the strike. The fact that there are some bad lecturers out there is even more of a reason why we should question the difference in pay between management and lecturers - either they should be given more training or should not have been employed in the first place - management decsions. 

I am not trying ot be rude but your post seems to show you have thought little beyond yourself (I know you said you support the strike), the point of solidarity is that you support not just yourself, not just those that you know, but all the workers, the fact that there are some poor lecturers out there is a different point.


----------



## Shanksy (May 29, 2006)

What were the striking unions stance on tuition fees does anyone know? It would seem strange if they were against their introduction and then when they get put up, all of a sudden they want some of the gravy. By tying the wage demands to tution fees increases its going to make it even harder for them to be abolished (something which admittedly looks very slim) and limit university education for those who can have the money.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 29, 2006)

Shanksy said:
			
		

> What were the striking unions stance on tuition fees does anyone know? It would seem strange if they were against their introduction and then when they get put up, all of a sudden they want some of the gravy. By tying the wage demands to tution fees increases its going to make it even harder for them to be abolished (something which admittedly looks very slim) and limit university education for those who can have the money.



The unions were against tuition/top up fees.


----------



## Stigmata (May 29, 2006)

Nemo said:
			
		

> The comments on my university's blog system are a sight for sore eyes. I alternate between wanting to weep and wanting to smash something at the sheer short-sighted, selfish anti-unionism on display.



God, it's exactly the same here. I think I might flip out and start hurling abuse at any moment.


----------



## Roadkill (May 30, 2006)

Onslow said:
			
		

> The importance of academics cannot be denied, however surely it should be the pursuit of knowlege and research that motivates them and not money.



'Man cannot live by job satisfaction alone.'


----------



## equationgirl (May 30, 2006)

Word on the street here is that the AUT are confident a settlement could be reached today. Apparently if it's not sorted by this Friday, things will go from bad to catastrophic. I don't know if this is just my uni or across the board.


----------



## Diamond (May 30, 2006)

Right well I'm finally recovered from my post-finals celebrations and it's time to get back into the fray.

A couple of weeks after my last post I'm still of the opinion that the 'action short of a strike' is a great mistake. Without endlessly regurgitating what I've said here before and on another thread I'll just briefly lay out how I see things.

I agree that university lecturers aren't paid a huge amount and that they have been treated pretty shoddily over the years. Consequently I am broadly sympathetic to their quarrel.

But,

I think that the rhetorical strategy of the academics unions, in relation to the students, amounts to emotional blackmail that fails to take into account the broader crisis and the limited funds available to ameriolate it.

I think that the academics should not exhort solidarity from the students without ceasing their research obligations too. This ‘action short of a strike’ seems incredibly cynical when I can bump into my lecturers in the british library researching books and articles while I am revising for exams for which I have no course feedback whatsoever.

I think that the ‘action short of a strike’ has been conducted poorly. Consequently the unions have not had any way to escalate the matter since March. As a result we are now looking at the possibility of things remaining deadlocked for months. I know of students whose graduate jobs are in jeopardy because of this.

On top of all that I think that both sides in the negotiations are behaving badly. It’s ridiculous for either side to accuse the other of jeopardising the students’ future when it’s clear that the responsibility lies with them both. In fact this gives you a little bit of an insight into the disdain with which students are being treated on both sides if they continually use these exploitative and fallacious arguments to buttress their pathetic actions.

Those are my main criticisms among many more. But finally in response to those who have said I’m a union basher or tried to swat my arguments away with dogmatic ideas of solidarity, I’d say that I think strike action is crucial to settling some industrial issues but my support for each action is contingent on the specifics of that action. I don’t buy any of the solidarity stuff, I’ve studied history for four years and researched Marxist, Post-Marxist and Post-post-Marxist historians and theorists to death; at no stage have I ever thought that the solidarity class-based analysis anything more than clumsy and reductive. 

If that encourages knee-jerk reactions and attempts to tar me as a Tory-boy idiot then so be it, but the very fact that such ideas need to be defended with petty mud-slinging should be evidence of their fragile nature and prejudicial basis.


----------



## tom_craggs (May 30, 2006)

Strikes are, by their nature, a display of solidarity in order to attempt to achieve change. I cannot see how you can see 'strikes as cruicual' under any circumstances if you 'don't buy any of the solidarity stuff', any strike is an action in solidarity by its nature.

And again you none of what you have said convinces me that students are really suffering here, I know I didn't and the fact that some students graduate jobs may be under threat is not enough of a justification to not have a stike. I say again, students are involved in this, they have a responsiblity to be engaged with the way their education is delievered. I believed this when I was a student and I believe it now. 

I don't believe you are a tory-boy or a union basher, but from what you said I think you are missing the point of a strike and do not understand the meaning of solidarity in the work place - you don't have to me a Marxist academic, you don't even have to be 'left-wing' to show solidarity in the work place or accept its relevance to strikes.


----------



## Diamond (May 30, 2006)

I was criticising more specifically those who would argue that the solidarity should automatically extend horizontally across all of society in so far as there is a coherent ruling class that can only be opposed through the vigilance of automatic solidarity if you see what I mean.

What I'm getting at is that there are a hell of a lot of people, especially on campus, who will play the solidarity card in any kind of discussion on strikes without any reference to the specifics. Too often it's used as a rhetorical club to beat down those who don't conform to such dogmatic class analysis.

As for student suffering let me explain to you how I went into my most difficult final this summer and how the 'action short of a strike' has directly affected a pivotal grade that will undoubtedly determine my degree.

At my university all marked work contributes towards your degree. In fact in the large classes that we take the only actual solid feedback you get on a course, and consequently the only point on the course at which you can appraise the ideas you have been developing and your own progress, is in the one essay that you do for it. This is 1/3rd of that course mark. The other 2/3rds is down to two essays you do in the exam.

Having been deprived of the mark for my course essay and with my lecturer adhereing strictly to the strike and refusing to give any kind of feedback on our progress I went into my most difficult exam of the summer essentially blind. Now I still wrote down the ideas I had developed, partly because that's the only way I could see myself getting a first (if they are correct) and partly because I have nothing but contempt for just toeing the textbook line; that's not what I came to university to do.

Now you may understandably dismiss this as a minor little problem, a blip on my university career that pales into insignificance alongside the poverty of academics. But the bottom line is that that course will decide my degree grade and that exam will determine the course. I went into it blind without even the slightest bit of informal help from my tutor. The consequence may sabotage my final degree mark and render four years of toil essentially redundant.


----------



## llantwit (May 31, 2006)

Just got this in the in-box. Thought they'd come up with a better offer this time. Honestly thought it'd be over this weekend.



> Dear Colleague
> 
> Today's emergency meeting of the AUT National Executive has rejected the
> latest 'best and final' offer made by the employers following a further
> ...


----------



## feyr (May 31, 2006)

i dont support the strike because i feel it was the wrong way to go about it, but this is largely influenced by talking to my tutor about it. when i was doing my final year of my undergraduate degree, our lecturing staff went on strike, i cant remember why, but i think it was pay. in our department , nearly all the students supported them, but thats because they took the time to explain what  was their reasoning etc. this time all we have got is a letter saying that we are to follow our deadlines as usual, but our mark will remain unmarked till the dispute is over, but with no explanation of when or how


----------



## llantwit (Jun 1, 2006)

It is indeed a bit weak if no effort has been made by the union or union members to try and explain the action to students - from what I've seen there should have been a lot more information given out to students than has been.
Might be down to some local branches being good at this sort of thing and some not, making it sporadic or a matter of (bad) luck for students if they're in a uni where no effort's been made.


> this time all we have got is a letter saying that we are to follow our deadlines as usual, but our mark will remain unmarked till the dispute is over, but with no explanation of when or how


Feyr - one reason on this might be that they (of course) can't know when the dispute will be over. On the 'How' that's pretty simple - the lecturers will mark them themselves whenthe action's finished.
I do agree - you should have got more info than this - but is this your only reason for not agreeing with the strike?
The strike that you mention when you were a final-year student might be the 2004 action... if so, then it took exactly the same form as this one (including a boycott of assessment). Same issues, similar demands, same action - it just got resolved earlier. It would be strange if  you'd suported that one, and not this one.


----------



## london manz (Jun 1, 2006)

firstly i believe the reason they are striking should be noticed and acted upon. the amount of fees universities charge etc... they should make increases on wages.

however, lecturers not marking their pupils exam papers could have negative effects on pupils, especially if the lecturers wrote the exam papers themselves and the student has revised to answer the question to suit what they think is expected by the marker. a different marker could have a detrimental impact on results, but then again whos to say it wouldnt have  a positive effect?

Why cant they strike at the beginning of next semester, or refuse to teach next years freshers that would cause mass problems as 150,000 new students would not be able to go to university - im sure the universities would crumble if something like that happened and reluctantly increase wages


----------



## misskitten (Jun 1, 2006)

I dont want higher wages, I want less idiotic bureacracy, less money-orientated decisions on students passing when they shouldnt, less management fuck-ups, a little less pressure to publish papers/bring in consultancy money/carry out research projects while i try to manage 15 modules... and a little less comparison to (only very few) of the other lecturers in my uni who sit around drinking coffee bringing in no money and complaining about their wages.


----------



## Masseuse (Jun 1, 2006)

misskitten said:
			
		

> I want less idiotic bureacracy, less money-orientated decisions on students passing when they shouldnt, less management fuck-ups



These are the biggies IMO.  Like the nhs universities are overrun with "managers" who have lost sight of everything a uni is supposed to be about.  And the constant cost-cutting does indeed lead to having to turn a blind eye to plagarism and just plain crap work.  And of course, lecturers being made to mark work/teach courses that are totally not their field.  Radio lecturers marking essays on Derrida enyone?


----------



## llantwit (Jun 1, 2006)

I agree with both of you - but I'd just settle for a job at the moment. 
Which is another thing - more staff and less job insecurity (fixed-term contracts) would be nice, wouldn't it?
BTW, Masseuse - I'll mark those Derrida essays if nobody else wants to .


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 1, 2006)

Masseuse said:
			
		

> These are the biggies IMO.  Like the nhs universities are overrun with "managers" who have lost sight of everything a uni is supposed to be about.  And the constant cost-cutting does indeed lead to having to turn a blind eye to plagarism and just plain crap work.  And of course, lecturers being made to mark work/teach courses that are totally not their field.  Radio lecturers marking essays on Derrida enyone?



It isn't just universities either: FE colleges are also top heavy with "managers" and the pay for lectures in FE is worse than that of teachers and uni lecturers combined. The whole emphasis these days is on commodity production; results, students etc are all 'products' in the eyes of the managers and marketing people and such products mean increased funding...or the same level of funding for the next year.


----------



## misskitten (Jun 1, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I agree with both of you - but I'd just settle for a job at the moment.
> Which is another thing - more staff and less job insecurity (fixed-term contracts) would be nice, wouldn't it?
> BTW, Masseuse - I'll mark those Derrida essays if nobody else wants to .



I know, im lucky to be one of the ones who got a permament position...

(did have to fight tooth and nail for it tho, my head of school tried to give it to his mate from operatic society instead even though i had written the course myself and brought in all the money to fund it, and his mate didnt have subject or teaching experience!!!)

but sometimes the ridiculousness of it all makes you so frustrated you wonder what the hell you're doing there...


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 1, 2006)

The bureaucratic hoop jumping nonsense certainly put me off an academic career. You wouldn't mind if the systems put in place actually worked, or you had the authority to *gasp* actually fail people who weren't doing any work. Several years ago, I remember there being uproar in the departments around the university after the Principal sent round a memo stating too many students were failing and that all 90% of all classes should be passed.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 1, 2006)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> The bureaucratic hoop jumping nonsense certainly put me off an academic career. You wouldn't mind if the systems put in place actually worked, or you had the authority to *gasp* actually fail people who weren't doing any work. Several years ago, I remember there being uproar in the departments around the university after the Principal sent round a memo stating too many students were failing and that all 90% of all classes should be passed.



Aye, this really stinks. Universities are not factories producing commodities, though this is what the education system - as a whole - is being told to do.

It's all about funding: each student is a walking "funding unit" and this is how management sees it.   They aren't interested in anything else but the production of statistics.


----------



## Roadkill (Jun 1, 2006)

london manz said:
			
		

> Why cant they strike at the beginning of next semester, or refuse to teach next years freshers that would cause mass problems as 150,000 new students would not be able to go to university - im sure the universities would crumble if something like that happened and reluctantly increase wages



1. The dispute is going on now, not next year.  In fact, it's been going on for the best part of this academic year.  Leaving action until next year is probably not a practical option because a) the momentum would be lost, and b) they want to get things sorted out before the next academic year.

2. Whatever action is taken is going to inconvenience someone.  If it were left until next year there'd just be the same fuss, except this time it'd be about freshers left in the lurch rather than finalists.  Just pushign the problem around isn't going to solve anything.


----------



## subversplat (Jun 1, 2006)

I've caught a couple of bits on the news about this now, and not a single student interviewed speaking out against the strike has managed to come across as anything other than a selfish prick


----------



## Masseuse (Jun 2, 2006)

subversplat said:
			
		

> I've caught a couple of bits on the news about this now, and not a single student interviewed speaking out against the strike has managed to come across as anything other than a selfish prick



Oh, have they actually shown interviews with any _supporting_ the strike?  The reporting on this has been abysmally partisan.  The views of supportive students are being deliberately ignored.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 2, 2006)

Of course they are! The media can't tell the general public that the lecturers are being evil and greedy at the expense of the poor ickle undergraduates, if the students are actually backing the strike. Blows a big hole in the media spin.

They showed a bit of a rally at Aberdeen Uni yesterday, but no interviews with students, supportive or not.


----------



## Ungrateful (Jun 6, 2006)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> Of course they are! The media can't tell the general public that the lecturers are being evil and greedy at the expense of the poor ickle undergraduates, if the students are actually backing the strike. Blows a big hole in the media spin.
> 
> They showed a bit of a rally at Aberdeen Uni yesterday, but no interviews with students, supportive or not.



I agree equationgirl -- There was also a rally by students at Glasgow University last week, which the local BBC originally reported as being against the academics, but was in fact, in support. The BBC Scotland website did, eventually, get it right, but it shows the 'default position' of the mainstream media.

However, like others on the list, I wish the strike had been called on the basis of other issues rather than pay (important though pay remains) -- I'd be happier with a strike against the extension of short term contracts, for higher staff numbers (to get back closer to staff-student ratios of 1992, or 1980s nevermind 1979), better pay and conditions for those on temporrary contracts and the erradication of the RAE which is destroying academic disciplines. I guess we have more chance of gaining these, in my view more important goals, if we win this dispute, than if we lose it.


----------



## vince noir (Jun 6, 2006)

I'll support any employees fighting to improve their pay and conditions. It's as simple as that.


----------



## Nemo (Jun 6, 2006)

Ungrateful said:
			
		

> the erradication of the RAE which is destroying academic disciplines.



The RAE is going after the 2008 exercise anyway (thank fuck).


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 6, 2006)

Do you know what it's being replaced with?

If I hear the word 'metric' being used one more time in the context 'we're being measured against these metrics' I swear I'm going to run amok in the senior management wing with a big stick.


----------



## Nemo (Jun 6, 2006)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> Do you know what it's being replaced with?
> 
> If I hear the word 'metric' being used one more time in the context 'we're being measured against these metrics' I swear I'm going to run amok in the senior management wing with a big stick.



I don't know, I'm afraid. Doubtless something else designed to validate the existence of the HEFCE.


----------



## Roadkill (Jun 6, 2006)

Most people will be very happy to see the back of the RAE.  Unfortunately, one can't help suspecting that whatever replaces it might be just as bad.

Meanwhile, I found out this afternoon that I'm probably going to be put through the 2008 RAE.  bugger.


----------



## Diamond (Jun 6, 2006)

News just in: the action short of a strike has been suspended and the UCU is going to ballot its members on the new pay deal.

It's a bit early to say but the deal seems pretty similar to the one that was on the table a few weeks back. The only stand-out part seems to be the convening of an independent review of university finances in an attempt to see whether there might be more money in the future for academics, which, IMO, sounds like a reasonable idea.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Jun 6, 2006)

Strike's over according to the Grauniad.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/specialreports/lecturerspay/story/0,,1791679,00.html

Seems like they accepted last week's offer?


----------



## Nemo (Jun 6, 2006)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Strike's over according to the Grauniad.
> 
> http://education.guardian.co.uk/specialreports/lecturerspay/story/0,,1791679,00.html
> 
> Seems like they accepted last week's offer?



I think there were other bits and pieces that were sticking points. 'Tis good news though.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 7, 2006)

Excellent but when is my auld NATFHE card going to be replaced by a brand new UCU card?


----------



## llantwit (Jun 8, 2006)

My university branch is encouraging a rejection of this offer in the forthcoming ballot:


> CARDIFF UNIVERSITY LECTURERS' UNION (UCU) CALLS FOR NATIONAL UNION LEADERS TO
> RESIGN
> 
> At a packed emergency meeting of the lecturers' union (UCU), union members in
> ...


----------



## Nemo (Jun 8, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> My university branch is encouraging a rejection of this offer in the forthcoming ballot:



Tactically speaking I don't think they have a snowball's of improving the settlement now.


----------



## llantwit (Jun 8, 2006)

Me either. I was surprised by the reaction. Amongst lecurers I know there was no stomach for a protracted action.


----------



## 2 Hardcore (Jun 12, 2006)

Well I'm hard at it trying to ensure that all my marking's done asap.
Thanks to all the students and others here who supported the action.
*disappears back to the pile of essays*


----------



## Diamond (Jun 12, 2006)

2 Hardcore said:
			
		

> Well I'm hard at it trying to ensure that all my marking's done asap.
> Thanks to all the students and others here who supported the action.
> *disappears back to the pile of essays*



As a student awaiting marks and exam results I was wondering whether you know how the academics have gone about the strike.

Has the tendency been to follow the strike to the letter and not mark anything or have some marked their stuff and refused to submit it to the second marker and department?


----------



## Roadkill (Jun 15, 2006)

AFAIK a lot of lecturers did the marking: they just didn't submit it to the second marker.  The marking would have to be done anyway, and not submitting it achieves precisely the same effect as not doing it in the first place.

which is why the attempt on the part of some (not on here, necessarily) to portray the strike as an extended skive was so far wide of the mark.


----------



## Mallard (Jun 16, 2006)

Fully support from me. The lecturers deserve much better and have been left with no choice. Shame that some of the 'me' generation have a problem with this. It probably indicates some of the problems of drip fed government restricted test obsessed education.

All power to 'em!


----------

