# Firing someone



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

I have to fire someone who is part of my team. 

I've inherited the department on my new job. Its my first time leading a team. The job is far more long term than I am used to. My senior when briefing me before I started this job that this person was "difficult" and "obstinant" (two adjectives I don't tolerant) 

My assistant is around my age, when I left college after getting a BA and started out at the bottom, she took a different route, went and got a MA, and er, left college to become my trainee. She's bitter, difficult to work with, uncommunicative and obnoxious. She's also got pathetic time keeping skills.  

I want her gone, but I've never fired anyone before. I know because of the industry I work in, I can pretty much tell her to walk out the door and never come back (no she's not some sweat shop employee, she's paid, by anyones standards above a london living wage. I just have this, well, guilt. I've never, well, been "the man". The fact is, she's part of a team of three, if she slacks, others including me, need to do the work, I take enough bullshit from my boss, to take it from my staff, well...

It's just sacking someone.... Feels weird. 

I think I just needed to vent.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

Well, now you are 'The Man'.


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

Fuck you. Drop the job if your conscience is biting. Sooth yourself elsewhere goon. Oh you poor sod, maybe you need some counselling or something? Life is hard geek.


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

Help me, my money is killing me!!!!!!

Pathetic.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Fuck you. Drop the job if your conscience is biting. Sooth yourself elsewhere goon. Oh you poor sod, maybe you need some counselling or something? Life is hard geek.



Whatsamatter: you get canned recently?


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

My heart, literally, i mean literally, as i've stabbed myself in the heart in sympathy with your plight, bleeds for you at this terrible time. I hope a measure of peice might be found in your wallet and career path.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

Somebody's kind of bitter.


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## the button (Feb 13, 2008)

(((((Bosses)))))


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> I have to fire someone who is part of my team.
> 
> I've inherited the department on my new job. Its my first time leading a team. The job is far more long term than I am used to. My senior when briefing me before I started this job that this person was "difficult" and "obstinant" (two adjectives I don't tolerant)
> 
> ...



You total fucking prick. You utter cock. You arrogant piece of shit. Death to the glass wearers. Death to their teacher parents and death to you you engineer scum. Drive a train and know your place.

Just venting y'all.


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

_My senior when briefing me before I started this job that this person was "difficult" and "obstinant" *(two adjectives I don't tolerant)*_

What are you Hitler?


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

_My assistant is around my age, when I left college after getting a BA and started out at the bottom, she took a different route, went and got a MA, and er, left college to become my trainee. She's bitter, difficult to work with, uncommunicative and obnoxious. She's also got pathetic time keeping skills._

The *total bitch*. I see where you're coming from you  insecure goon.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm wondering why she got an MA and then became his trainee. It sounds like a submissive relationship to me.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> It's just sacking someone.... Feels weird. .



Better make sure you do it right, or she'll sue your ass.


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

_"I want her gone, but I've never fired anyone before. I know because of the industry I work in, I can pretty much tell her to walk out the door and never come back (no she's not some sweat shop employee, she's paid, by anyones standards above a london living wage. I just have this, well, guilt. I've never, well, been "the man". The fact is, she's part of a team of three, if she slacks, others including me, need to do the work, I take enough bullshit from my boss, to take it from my staff, well..."_

You poor poor boy. Too scared to do what you want done. Too scared to face the consequences. Want a bit of love on here. 

Kill yourself. Put you head in whatever tank you have and force it down. You might need a helper here. Kill yourself.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

God help me: butchersapron is amusing me.


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> I've never, well, been "the man".



No sir you ain't.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> It's just sacking someone.... Feels weird.
> 
> I think I just needed to vent.



p.s. How old are you: 25?

It would suck, being fired by a 25 year old 'manager'.


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

Important degree level shit going on here.


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## the button (Feb 13, 2008)

Tell her you're sacking her because she's a woman, and an uppity one at that. That'll learn her. 

I bet she even makes a shit cup of tea. Bitch.


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## scifisam (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> You total fucking prick. You utter cock. You arrogant piece of shit. Death to the glass wearers. Death to their teacher parents and death to you you engineer scum. Drive a train and know your place.
> 
> Just venting y'all.



Blimey. 

Now, I know you're trolling, but 'glass wearers?' What does that mean? That's a new one to me. Could be quite poetic, once you've told me what it means. 

And teachers who are parents should die? *kaboom goes me*

Engineer? Oh yeah, they're definitely the people who should be first against the wall. Not needed at all. 

I'd love to drive a train. Good pay, good unions, good T&C. 


Anyway - well, somebody has to be the boss, 8den. Check that she actually is as bad as you think, and you haven't just been predisposed to think so. Follow every single rule that is there - including sending her on extra training, if she hasn't done it all already. Check that she's not just this way because her former boss was a shit. (You might have done this already - I'm just checking, too). 

Then I guess that all you can do is just get on with it and accept that it's one of the consequences of being 'the man,' (we'd all be in the shit even more if incompetant people didn't get fired eventually), and it's better that conscientious people are in that position than people who don't care about others.


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## scifisam (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> _"I want her gone, but I've never fired anyone before. I know because of the industry I work in, I can pretty much tell her to walk out the door and never come back (no she's not some sweat shop employee, she's paid, by anyones standards above a london living wage. I just have this, well, guilt. I've never, well, been "the man". The fact is, she's part of a team of three, if she slacks, others including me, need to do the work, I take enough bullshit from my boss, to take it from my staff, well..."_
> 
> You poor poor boy. Too scared to do what you want done. Too scared to face the consequences. Want a bit of love on here.
> 
> Kill yourself. Put you head in whatever tank you have and force it down. You might need a helper here. *Kill yourself.*



Also: kill yourself? Slightly extreme, perhaps?


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## fractionMan (Feb 13, 2008)

op is a cunt and no mistake lol


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## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> <nasty shit snipped> I know because of the industry I work in, I can pretty much tell her to walk out the door and never come back <nasty shit snipped>


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## Maurice Picarda (Feb 13, 2008)

Don't you have to give her warnings and put her on a performance improvement plan before you can get her out of the door? What industry is it that you're working in where you're exempt from all those hoops?


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## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Don't you have to give her warnings and put her on a performance improvement plan before you can get her out of the door? What industry is it that you're working in where you're exempt from all those hoops?



That's what the owl was conveying


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 13, 2008)

It sounds like _such_ a supportive environment to work in, whereby people are labelled as difficult and obstinant before you've even met them, and it appears that precisely no effort has been made by any of you to find out anything about this woman or what may be affecting her performance. And then you come crying here and needing to 'vent'......


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## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

Is Butchers, Chymera reincarnated? Death to all!!


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## Louis MacNeice (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> IMy senior when briefing me before I started this job that this person was "difficult" and "obstinant" (two adjectives I don't tolerant)



I'm feeling really bad about this, but I'm going to have to let you go as you are ungrammatical...sorry but I just can't tolerate poorly written English.

Cheers – Louis MacNeice


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## Fullyplumped (Feb 13, 2008)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Don't you have to give her warnings and put her on a performance improvement plan before you can get her out of the door? What industry is it that you're working in where you're exempt from all those hoops?


Don't you actually have to *manage* her first? 

That is, work out with her how her competencies match the job she has to do, supervise her work and explore how her performance contributes or not to the job, develop with her (and not "put her on") a performance improvement plan? 

You sound like a thoroughly incompetent manager of people to me, who has made your mind up to get rid of a qualified person who you are not capable of working with, and you seem to want our sympathy and perhaps some free consultancy to help you evade the legal consequences of your own foulness.

Perhaps you could humble yourself to go on a course? Or something??


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## 8ball (Feb 13, 2008)

Brilliant early performance from butchers


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## Wookey (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> I have to fire someone who is part of my team.



8den, listen up lover! I'm going to talk nicely to you, I might be one of the few here with the patience to do that.

Sadly, you are failing at your job. You sound quite young, and inexperienced, and this is your first management role, so the fact that you have been promoted beyond your current capabilities is not surprising, and not something you should be blamed for. Most people would take a well-paid job in their field if it was offered to them, regardless of their missing skills (like people management, team building, human resources, etc) - hoping to fill in these gaps along the way. 

We 'require' many levels of management in this country, and that means young, inexperienced people being put in charge of other people's lives quite a lot of the time - not a system I agree with, but that's what we've got.

What you have to do is negotiate your own morals within that system, and stay within the boundaries you set yourself at all times, even when the system says otherwise. The 'guilt' you say you are feeling sounds to me like a reaction to potentially doing something you know is wrong - and have you really exhausted all other options before arriving at this most serious of possibilities? Do you even know what the possibilities are?



> She's bitter



Have you asked her what she might be bitter about? Have you built a relationship in which she could even tell you what might be going wrong at work, or at home, in an open and non-judgmental way? She might feel unable to talk to you because she feels you are judging her - and she wouldn't be wrong, would she, because you are judging her!

When was the last time you sat your team down and asked: 'How am I performing, on your behalf?'

You've never done this??!

Why not? Seems like a sensible idea, doesn't it?

If you did do this, could you take the answers and act on them? Would those answers be honest, do you reckon, or are the relationships you work with merely playtime ones? Only you know the culture you work in - are you a follower, or a leader?



> difficult to work with



Newsflash: Some people are difficult to work with. That's no reason to sack them, but a reason why you need to become a better manager of people who are difficult to work with. Some of the best contributors I've ever worked with on my team have been utter twats, but they delivered. When they didn't deliver, and I knew they could, I found out why. If they didn't deliver, and I didn't think they could, I asked myself why I was working for an organisation which mishired people (could they have mishired me??) and what I could do to remedy the situation short of sacking (retraining, jobshare, skills-share).

Sacking is for dangerous people, people who risk other's health, it's a last resort. You haven't even tried the first resort, really, have you?



> uncommunicative and obnoxious



If you have shown even the tiniest inkling to her face the depth of disgust you've shown on here, then I'm not surprised she appears this way to you. Can you honestly say you have been the parent here, taking her moods on the chin, not reacting, seeing the bigger picture, finding the root cause for the benefit of everybody (including her?) - if not, you are not yet management material.



> She's also got pathetic time keeping skills.



No reason to sack her - that's reason to talk about her time keeping, to her, and arrive at mutually agreed solutions. Does she rely on dodgy public transport, could you car-share? Is there a practical issue?

If the relationship between you has broken down, or is breaking down, then she probably doesn't even want to come to work and see your face, let alone arrive on time. If everything else was sweetness and light, then lateness would not be forgiveable - but it's not sweetness and light, is it? And you are responsible for that - you accept money every month in exchange for making things sweetness and light. That's your job. With extra power comes extra responsibility - so are you positive you are living up to that responsiblity, and not just taking the easy way out because you think that's culturally acceptable?



> I want her gone



Interesting turn of phrase. Not 'she has exhausted every chance I've given her' or 'she has broken her contract time and time again despite every help we've given her' - but I WANT HER GONE.

Power is seductive, isn't it? I wonder what kind of managers you have above you, that this kind of language is seen as acceptable to you. What you 'want' is probably the least important aspect of this entire equation. You could 'want' an easy option (that destroys someone's life, career, confidence and faith in humanity) but that doesn't make it _right_. Perhaps you should stop willy-waving and solve this problem properly?



> I take enough bullshit from my boss, to take it from my staff, well...



Ahh, my question answered. You have shit bosses above you, and you are dutifully fulfilling your modern management role of passing that bullshit down to those below you. This will eventually make you a horrible little person, if it hasn't already. Resist at all costs.

Do you want to turn into the kind of boss you have at the moment? Are they models to aspire to? 

You could go through your career sacking everyone you don't get on with, neutralising every problem with your inflated sense of power, passing the buck - and ruining lives. No-one will stop you, and the people above you are likely to support you.

Or, you could do things differently, and choose the harder but far more rewarding path. Do you have it in you, I wonder?

Instead of seeing yourself as a controller of people, why not see yourself as a defender of people, as a motivator, and as an enabler? 

Instead of passing on the bullshit you get from the bosses above you, why not shoulder that bullshit and refuse to pass it on? Manage upwards, as well as downwards, and save your staff from the heartache of wasted effort. If this member of staff has problem with her job or her managers, which she sounds like she might with her attitude and lateness, then why not become her ally, and tease out of her the real issues? Maybe she hates the big bosses as much as you do - maybe more?

You have the opportunity to turn this person's work life around - you could make her happy at work, make her proud of her job, make her feel useful, and respected, and integral to the team, and wanted, and safe. 

Once you achieve this, you might even start liking the woman!

Or, you could sack her. And get a hollow round of applause from the kind of people you swore you would never become yourself.

Can you do this? Are you _good_ enough to be different? This is your test. If you fail, you really will be one of 'them', and I'm afraid redemption is all the harder once that transition is made, because under the current system you will be rewarded for joining 'them'.

The fact that you feel guilt shows me there IS hope for you. You are not yet a management goon. But you soon will be if you don't think long and hard about what you are doing in life, and what kind of life you want that to be.

Even if you cannot solve this woman's issues, you could consentually 'manage' her into a new job, by helping her with her CV, giving her a great reference, letting her look for another job during work time (I've done all these things when every other possibility was gone) but that will involve making _her_ your priority, rather than your company, or yourself. (You probably won't be able to tell your bosses you operate this way, but that's the price of being the agent within, and saving your immortal soul!)

Sacking is easy, and as the managers always say: 'It gets easier the more you do.'

Serial killers often say the same thing.

Don't become a serial killer. Wookey hates serial killers.


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## bouncer_the_dog (Feb 13, 2008)

can I suggest putting all her stuff in a box and chucking it out on the street and the changing all the locks? Perhaps a restraining order too... 

Either that or try a 'Wall Street' style walk of shame.


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## Termite Man (Feb 13, 2008)

Wookey said:


> Serial killers often say the same thing.
> 
> Don't become a serial killer. Wookey hates serial killers.



I'm glad I bothered to read the last two lines of this post ( I couldn't be arsed with the rest )


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## jæd (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> It's just sacking someone.... Feels weird.
> 
> I think I just needed to vent.



The first time you sack someone it always "feels weird". Its not a nice thing to do, and nope, it doesn't get easier. Personally, I'd have an Official Chat with her, HR, and someone of her choice first. This will avoid any nastiness later... Work out a plan for action and see if she follows it. If she doesn't then start on all the Official Warnings, etc. 

(Oh, and I'd probably avoid using U75 for management advice unless you like lots of purile "managers are c&*nts" comments...  )


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## jæd (Feb 13, 2008)

Termite Man said:


> I'm glad I bothered to read the last two lines of this post ( I couldn't be arsed with the rest )



Can someone edit it down a bit...? Some of us are Managers here and don't have time to read long posts...


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## GoneCoastal (Feb 13, 2008)

If you're new to the post & new to being the manager, then I'd say to form *your own* opinions rather than accepting other people's default ones... You never know, the problems just might have been an issue with the previous manager's style/personality etc etc

If not, then you may have to bite the bullet but follow all the correct processes & exhaust any improvement opportunities you've got there (even if you have to create them) so that she gets a *fair chance* at changing things and a fair hearing 

Part of being a manager's helping people to improve/change & that sometimes means you miht have to set up an improvement system yourself - part of a managers job maybe ?


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## fractionMan (Feb 13, 2008)

I forgot to ask.

Is she fit?


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## Pingu (Feb 13, 2008)

these threads always go well...


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## GoneCoastal (Feb 13, 2008)

Pingu said:


> these threads always go well...


Yup


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## EastEnder (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> It's just sacking someone.... Feels weird.


Really?! Taking away someone's livelihood feels weird?!? 

And to think, all this time I'd assumed it must feel like taking a nice warm bath, with candles and soothing music and everything.....


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

Has she been re-instated yet?


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Also: kill yourself? Slightly extreme, perhaps?



Yep. Don't kill yourself OP, just mangle your foot.


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## TopCat (Feb 13, 2008)

Jesus fucking wept.


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## EastEnder (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> I have to fire someone who is part of my team.
> 
> I've inherited the department on my new job. Its my first time leading a team. The job is far more long term than I am used to. My senior when briefing me before I started this job that this person was "difficult" and "obstinant" (two adjectives I don't tolerant)
> 
> ...


Even ignoring the mortality aspect, I'd have thought that posting the above was a bit risky...

I'm no expert on employment law, but presumably if the woman concerned were ever to see the above post, it'd be most useful in any unfair dismissal claim!


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## Madusa (Feb 13, 2008)

lol at this thread!


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## baldrick (Feb 13, 2008)

Wookey said:


> Sadly, you are failing at your job. You sound quite young, and inexperienced, and this is your first management role, so the fact that you have been promoted beyond your current capabilities is not surprising, and not something you should be blamed for. Most people would take a well-paid job in their field if it was offered to them, regardless of their missing skills (like people management, team building, human resources, etc) - hoping to fill in these gaps along the way.





> The 'guilt' you say you are feeling sounds to me like a reaction to potentially doing something you know is wrong - and have you really exhausted all other options before arriving at this most serious of possibilities? Do you even know what the possibilities are?





> Newsflash: Some people are difficult to work with. That's no reason to sack them, but a reason why you need to become a better manager of people who are difficult to work with. Sacking is for dangerous people, people who risk other's health, it's a last resort. You haven't even tried the first resort, really, have you?





> You could go through your career sacking everyone you don't get on with, neutralising every problem with your inflated sense of power, passing the buck - and ruining lives. No-one will stop you, and the people above you are likely to support you.





8ball - you're coming across as a very thoughtless and selfish person.


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## EastEnder (Feb 13, 2008)

baldrick said:


> 8ball - you're coming across as a very thoughtless and selfish person.


*8den*


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## jæd (Feb 13, 2008)

baldrick said:


> 8ball - you're coming across as a very thoughtless and selfish person.



As opposed to all the people who, instead of helping _8eden_, just seem to heaping abuse on him. How very U75...!


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

jæd said:


> As opposed to all the people who, instead of helping _8eden_, just seem to heaping abuse on him. How very U75...!



What beautiful eyes you have Jade!


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## Santino (Feb 13, 2008)

That's me convinced: no one should ever lost their job ever.


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## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

jæd said:


> As opposed to all the people who, instead of helping _8eden_, just seem to heaping abuse on him. How very U75...!



You think that reinforcing some of the attitudes displayed in the OP & telling him/her how to achieve his/her goal of firing this woman would be helpful?


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## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Fuck you. Drop the job if your conscience is biting. Sooth yourself elsewhere goon. Oh you poor sod, maybe you need some counselling or something? Life is hard geek.



Well said.


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## sleaterkinney (Feb 13, 2008)

Yeah, 8den, just give her a hug!


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## TopCat (Feb 13, 2008)

Maybe if we trawl 8edens posts we can work out his employer and let the lass know?


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## jæd (Feb 13, 2008)

cesare said:


> You think that reinforcing some of the attitudes displayed in the OP & telling him/her how to achieve his/her goal of firing this woman would be helpful?



I would suggest engaging more with 8eden to understand the situation better. Perhaps the OP has just started out in management and needs a few pointers... As was stated in the OP, they wanted to vent something, and rants are never the most carefully worded...

Its hard to see how this kind of abuse :




			
				ButchersApron said:
			
		

> Fuck you. Drop the job if your conscience is biting. Sooth yourself elsewhere goon. Oh you poor sod, maybe you need some counselling or something? Life is hard geek.



...is helpful in this forum...? If anything its not going to encourage people to ask for advice.


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

jæd said:


> I would suggest engaging more with 8eden to understand the situation better. Perhaps the OP has just started out in management and needs a few pointers... As was stated in the OP, they wanted to vent something, and rants are never the most carefully worded...
> 
> Its hard to see how this kind of abuse :
> 
> ...



It's the best advice up their own arse managers can get as it goes.


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## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

1. Butchersapron. Gosh, I'd say more but my "legal team" has advised me to keep stum. 

What kinda of poncy arse hyprocrite claims to be all anarchist and damn the man, and has a fucking "legal team" like you did, butchers, when you claimed you were suing this website. Fuck off. 

2. As to the constructive criticism. No I'm not that young, and yes I appreciate that firing someone is not that nice, but this woman is taking the piss. 

Example. Before I arrived it was given that she would not work past 7pm. Two days in a row I was stuck in till 10pm, and on the second day, I left a note (on a massive whiteboard next to her desk) saying I would be in late. At 9:15am the following morning, I got a phonecall from her complaining that her mouse didn't work. Her mouse was unplugged and sitting on her desk. Five minutes later she phoned asking were something was, despite it being clearly labeled and filed in the correct place. 

As to her time keeping she's 30 years old coming in from zone 2 to zone 1, I am not her fucking mother, she should be able to get in on time. She's not asked to stay late, but I expect as quid pro quo, that she's always there to open the shop as it where. 

Wookey your advice was sensible and thoughtful, thank you. But it's not really applicable, she doesn't have much contact with management aside from myself, I bear the brunt of her attitude. You also seem to be transfering your own issues, and opinions about something else onto me, you don't know much about this situation, but are making numerous assumptions about me, the job, and her.


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## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

jæd said:


> I would suggest engaging more with 8eden to understand the situation better. Perhaps the OP has just started out in management and needs a few pointers... As was stated in the OP, they wanted to vent something, and rants are never the most carefully worded...
> 
> Its hard to see how this kind of abuse :
> 
> ...



But s/he wasn't asking for advice.


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## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

jæd said:


> Its hard to see how this kind of abuse :
> 
> 
> 
> ...is helpful in this forum...? If anything its not going to encourage people to ask for advice.



I don't think we want people asking for advice on how to put someone out of work, tbh. I'm growing heartily sick of seeing more and more of these sort of threads on here - It's not as if they're the ones short of official backing or support for their actions. Why don't they piss off and ask the CBI or CIPD or something?


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## baldrick (Feb 13, 2008)

jæd said:


> As opposed to all the people who, instead of helping _8eden_, just seem to heaping abuse on him. How very U75...!


you think i was abusive?  good lord, you're a sensitive little flower, aren't you


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> 1. Butchersapron. Gosh, I'd say more but my "legal team" has advised me to keep stum.
> 
> What kinda of poncy arse hyprocrite claims to be all anarchist and damn the man, and has a fucking "legal team" like you did, butchers, when you claimed you were suing this website. Fuck off.



You what?


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## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

TopCat said:


> Maybe if we trawl 8edens posts we can work out his employer and let the lass know?



Yeah, that won't work...


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## baldrick (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> 2. As to the constructive criticism. No I'm not that young, and yes I appreciate that firing someone is not that nice, but this woman is taking the piss.


I really don't see that this justifies you sacking her.

what have you said about her timekeeping?  have you explained that it's an issue and asked why she's late?


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## Maurice Picarda (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> Yeah, that won't work...


 
Ignoring the twattish Spartists, 8den, can you answer the owl and me? We're worried that you're going to be hauled in front of a tribunal, or at least curious about what industry has this level of exemption from employment law.


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## jæd (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> I don't think we want people asking for advice on how to put someone out of work, tbh. I'm growing heartily sick of seeing more and more of these sort of threads on here - It's not as if they're the ones short of official backing or support for their actions. Why don't they piss off and ask the CBI or CIPD or something?



Because the Employment Forum should only be a place where the Workers ask questions on how to smash the Employers.  



baldrick said:


> you think i was abusive?  good lord, you're a sensitive little flower, aren't you



Not you specifically, but it certainly makes the idea of U75 as a open-minded and helpful place laughable...


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## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> I don't think we want people asking for advice on how to put someone out of work, tbh. I'm growing heartily sick of seeing more and more of these sort of threads on here - It's not as if they're the ones short of official backing or support for their actions. Why don't they piss off and ask the CBI or CIPD or something?


 
Are you trying to dictate what people can or can't post???


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Are you trying to dictate what people can or can't post???



I'm saying the bosses aren't the ones short of sympatheic ears and orgs they can go squeeling too. The rest of us have only a few rersources. Bad enough the bosses have infested most of our unions now as it is.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

That's a massive generalisation.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> I'm saying the bosses aren't the ones short of sympatheic ears and orgs they can go squeeling too. The rest of us have only a few rersources. Bad enough the bosses have infested most of our unions now as it is.


Really!? Which voluntary group is there for people shell shocked by firing people?

Try your best to help her become useful, once you've tried all you can then fire her. Balance between making your life easy for someone beyond your help and not being a cunt.


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> That's a massive generalisation.



Most messy, stinky brown stuff that comes out of an arse is shit. _That's_ a generalisation, too.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 13, 2008)

Speaking as a manager, I thought Wookey's post was very good, actually.  Sacking someone should _always_ feel like a total failure on the part of you, as their manager.  Very few people are such feckless, useless idiots that there can be no place for them in a role for which they are qualified.  Sacking is a very blunt and bludgeoning tool.

OTOH, there can sometimes be occasions where somebody is actually destroying the morale and enjoyment of everybody else around them and is clearly miserable in their role.  You have tried every management approach in the book -- giving them training, flexibility, what they say they want, what they actually seem to want and so on.  In such circumstances, it can be in everybody's interests -- including their own -- that they go elsewhere.  Hopefully, this can be done in a way that they are making a positive move elsewhere from a position of strength, rather than by being sacked.  But I can see that this may, in very rare cases, not be the case.

But heed this -- I've been able to go through about five years in management now, being given every so-called "problem case" in two different companies.  Most of them were being talked about for sacking when they were transferred to me.  *I've not failed yet in helping them turn it round.*  Some of them got their confidence back, realised the job wasn't for them and then I helped them get a better role in another company.  Some of them I helped to forge relationships internally and they suddenly started to make progress.  Some of them just managed to settle into a comfortable and productive position -- not everybody has to be a superstar, you know.  

Generally, their so-called "problems" turned out actually to be based on nothing more than other peoples' petty jealousies or meaningless clock-watching or possibly on a lack of confidence that had been created by being treated like shit.  

8den, I suggest you look an awful lot more closely at yourself, your relationship with your team and what this woman actually may be having an issue with before you talk so glibly of sacking her.  I'd say that you are a long, long, _long_ way off the route you seem to want to go down.  You are a manager, not a dictator.  She has a right to live her life in the way she sees fit.  If she is doing the job, it should be no business of yours if she happens to correspond exactly to the precise hours your think she should be there or a manner of speaking you dictate to her.  These things are important, sure, but only for her own personal chance to improve her status on the company.  They aren't important in any absolute sense. 

Take a step back from the game and ask yourself what is really important.  Focus on that and forget the extraneous shit.  You have a chance to be a good manager, which is a rare and prize-worthy goal.  Believe me -- if you take that chance then you it really will pay you dividends in the long run.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> I have to fire someone who is part of my team.
> 
> I've inherited the department on my new job. Its my first time leading a team. The job is far more long term than I am used to. My senior when briefing me before I started this job that this person was "difficult" and "obstinant" (two adjectives I don't tolerant)
> 
> ...


 
10/10


(theres something nasty about the bolded bit that I can't quite articulate.....you cunt


----------



## baldrick (Feb 13, 2008)

jæd said:


> Not you specifically, but it certainly makes the idea of U75 as a open-minded and helpful place laughable...


I don't see why I should be "open-minded" about someone wanting to sack someone for very little reason.

If he was asking for help about how to manage her, if he had genuinely tried everything to resolve things and this is the only option, then I would have sympathy.  But that isn't the case.


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Really!? Which voluntary group is there for people shell shocked by firing people?



Hang on Bob ... victim support for managers needing to dismiss? I can see your point if they've got to handle large scale redundancies (by way of example) but I'd imagine that normally the recipients of being fired were in greater need of support tbh.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

baldrick said:


> I don't see why I should be "open-minded" about someone wanting to sack someone for very little reason.
> 
> If he was asking for help about how to manage her, if he had genuinely tried everything to resolve things and this is the only option, then I would have sympathy. But that isn't the case.


 
Why not suggest other things, like Kabbes has? 

Just ends up another fucking bunfight/posturing thread otherwise


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

kabbes said:


> there can sometimes be occasions where somebody is actually destroying the morale and enjoyment of everybody else around them



They're usually the boss.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> They're usually the boss.


Helpful.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

cesare said:


> Hang on Bob ... victim support for managers needing to dismiss? I can see your point if they've got to handle large scale redundancies (by way of example) but I'd imagine that normally the recipients of being fired were in greater need of support tbh.


 
My g/f is currently involved in a large restructure. She works in HR but her hands are being tied, her ethics gone against and her confidence in the company is shattered. But she is seen as the asshole that's making people redundant, I see her as my g/f that sits at home crying about what is going on, how fucking awful she feels about being so powerless...


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Why not suggest other things, like Kabbes has?
> 
> Just ends up another fucking bunfight/posturing thread otherwise



*waits for Kanda's suggestions*

edit: ooo hang on, you've just posted summat


----------



## jæd (Feb 13, 2008)

baldrick said:


> If he was asking for help about how to manage her, if he had genuinely tried everything to resolve things and this is the only option, then I would have sympathy.  But that isn't the case.



Obviously he has more information on the situation then we can ever have, any decision that is taken is his, but posting up unsolicited advice one can hopefully make him grow as a person and as a manger.

Posting up abuse won't do that, and might just entrench his opinion.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> They're usually the boss.



True.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

cesare said:


> *waits for Kanda's suggestions*
> 
> edit: ooo hang on, you've just posted summat


 
Unsure what to suggest, I'm not qualified to do so really. I thought the post was a joke initially!


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> My g/f is currently involved in a large restructure. She works in HR but her hands are being tied, her ethics gone against and her confidence in the company is shattered. But she is seen as the asshole that's making people redundant, I see her as my g/f that sits at home crying about what is going on, how fucking awful she feels about being so powerless...



Yes, I've every sympathy for that (which is why I mentioned the large scale redundancies example). Is she looking elsewhere?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> My g/f is currently involved in a large restructure. She works in HR but her hands are being tied, her ethics gone against and her confidence in the company is shattered. But she is seen as the asshole that's making people redundant, I see her as my g/f that sits at home crying about what is going on, how fucking awful she feels about being so powerless...


 


would resignation, refusal to be complicit with those who have passed the shit-detail to her, really be worse than crying at home?


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Feb 13, 2008)

cesare said:


> Hang on Bob ... victim support for managers needing to dismiss? I can see your point if they've got to handle large scale redundancies (by way of example) but I'd imagine that normally the recipients of being fired were in greater need of support tbh.


They are, i was taking the piss out of poster's bollocks.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes, it's all happened very quickly and she is leaving asap... she's refused retainers to stay and get the job done too.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> My g/f is currently involved in a large restructure. She works in HR but her hands are being tied, her ethics gone against and her confidence in the company is shattered. But she is seen as the asshole that's making people redundant, I see her as my g/f that sits at home crying about what is going on, how fucking awful she feels about being so powerless...


Well you're either an evil boss or a glorious worker, and poster3232423 wonders why no one turns up to his strikes and no one votes for left parties.


----------



## Pingu (Feb 13, 2008)

i reckon take a leaf from monty python

hold a meeting and say

"all those who wil have a job here tomorrow take one step forward...


 ...not so fast Ms x"


its the kind and caring method that shows compassion and understanding.


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Yes, it's all happened very quickly and she is leaving asap... she's refused retainers to stay and get the job done too.



Good for her, I hope she finds something quickly. I know a recruitment agent that specialises in HR placements if that's any use.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Feb 13, 2008)

Pingu said:


> i reckon take a leaf from monty python
> 
> hold a meeting and say
> 
> ...


"Compassion is a disease of cats" ?


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

cesare said:


> Good for her, I hope she finds something quickly. I know a recruitment agent that specialises in HR placements if that's any use.


 
She's got one on the case but another can't do any harm can it? Fire it over on PM and I'll send it to her, thanks


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

cesare said:


> I know a recruitment agent that specialises in HR placements if that's any use.



What, so she can be involved in the same scenario all over again?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes, HR are only ever tasked with firing people.  They do nothing -- nothing at all -- that ever helps the people being employed.  Like, you know, paying them.


----------



## Crispy (Feb 13, 2008)

Completely unnaceptable levels of abuse on this thread, quite aside from the actual points being made. NO more of it, please.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> What, so she can be involved in the same scenario all over again?


 
She's what I call 'ethical HR' and not one of the shitty HR types you get. I think she'd be better off in a company fighting for workers than on one of your 'approved jobs' lists


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Yes, HR are only ever tasked with firing people.  They do nothing -- nothing at all -- that ever helps the people being employed.  Like, you know, paying them.



Other way round. They're paid out of the money made fo the company by employees.


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> 'ethical HR'



That's up there with "military intelligence".


----------



## kabbes (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Other way round. They're paid out of the money made fo the company by employees.


So who do you think does all the admin necessary to make sure that the employees get their paychecks?  The managers?  The owners of the business?


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Other way round. They're paid out of the money made fo the company by employees.


 
Paid to improve workers conditions, paid as a barrier between management and workers to ensure people are treated, renumerated, trained, generally looked after correctly.

In an ideal world


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

kabbes said:


> So who do you think does all the admin necessary to make sure that the employees get their paychecks?  The managers?  The owners of the business?



What's that got to with who makes the money that pays for the HR dept?


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Paid to improve workers conditions, paid as a barrier between management and workers to ensure people are treated, renumerated, trained, generally looked after correctly.
> 
> In an ideal world



Whereas in the _actual_ world, they're paid to erode workers conditions, paid to support management against workers and generally paid to ensure the corporate always wins it's battles against it's workers.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 13, 2008)

Bring on the company unions!

Louis MacNeice


----------



## 8ball (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Paid to improve workers conditions, paid as a barrier between management and workers to ensure people are treated, renumerated, trained, generally looked after correctly.
> 
> In an ideal world



She's a utopian union rep?


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Bring on the company unions!



Don't bother, they're here.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> Whereas in the _actual_ world, they're paid to erode workers conditions, paid to support management against workers and generally paid to ensure the corporate always wins it's battles against it's workers.


 
Depends on the company and the HR people themselves. I've worked in companies like that ideal world above. Sadly I don't now, nor does she.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

8ball said:


> She's a utopian union rep?


 
I guess!


----------



## kabbes (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> What's that got to with who makes the money that pays for the HR dept?


What's that got to do with anything I said at any point?  Let me see... hmm... no, it has nothing to do with anything I said.

My point was that HR perform the administrative functions necessary for employees to get the various benefits promised to them by the company (not to mention the protections due to them in law).  Without HR, there is no paycheck.  There is no pension.  There is no holiday.  _Somebody_ has to actually do the things necessary to make these happen.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> Whereas in the actual world, they're paid to erode workers conditions, paid to support management against workers and generally paid to ensure the corporate always wins it's battles against it's workers.




Actually they're paid to make life more difficult and complex for managers by adding extra levels of paperwork to the recruitment process and inventing insanely complex appraisal systems. Sacking the HR department and replacing it with a couple of personnel droids is the first thing I'd do if parachuted in as CEO anywhere.


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

Maurice Picarda said:


> insanely complex appraisal systems.



Which most managers love, in my experience. Gives yet another opportunity to lord it over someone and indulge in showing who'se the daddy.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Actually they're paid to make life more difficult and complex for managers by adding extra levels of paperwork to the recruitment process and inventing insanely complex appraisal systems. Sacking the HR department and replacing it with a couple of personnel droids is the first thing I'd do if parachuted in as CEO anywhere.


 
Yes, that's all they do, recruitment...


----------



## 8ball (Feb 13, 2008)

Maurice Picarda said:


> . . . inventing insanely complex appraisal systems.



This is a point - they have way too much time on their hands.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

kabbes said:


> What's that got to do with anything I said at any point?  Let me see... hmm... no, it has nothing to do with anything I said.



It had to do with this post:



kabbes said:


> Yes, HR are only ever tasked with firing people.  They do nothing -- nothing at all -- that ever helps the people being employed.  Like, you know, paying them.



We're talking about different things though. Point missed. Never mind.


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> Which most managers love, in my experience. Gives yet another opportunity to lord it over someone and indulge in showing who'se the daddy.



All the managers I know hate it, trying to drag fucking 'targets' out of the unwilling who usually haven't got time to do more work even if they wanted to.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Yes, that's all they do, recruitment...


 
Oh no, they try to get involved in _everything_, on the spurious grounds that strategic decisions involve "people", which is their bit. If they just sat tight, filtered out CVs written in green ink and processed wages, I wouldn't have a problem with the business function, but it's definitely one that's got above itself.


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> She's got one on the case but another can't do any harm can it? Fire it over on PM and I'll send it to her, thanks


Yep, can't do any harm, done.


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

innit said:


> All the managers I know hate it, trying to drag fucking 'targets' out of the unwilling who usually haven't got time to do more work even if they wanted to.



Why don't they oppose it, then? Why don't they put motions forward in the unions they've infested calling for their abolition?


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> Why don't they oppose it, then? Why don't they put motions forward in the unions they've infested calling for their abolition?


 
That's a sensible question. The answer is that you should no more fuck with HR than you should with facilities managers.


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Feb 13, 2008)

As an un-manageable employee teetering on the brink of unemployment I find this thread most interesting...


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

Maurice Picarda said:


> That's a sensible question. The answer is that you should no more fuck with HR than you should with facilities managers.



So how does anyone square that one with the laughable notion that HR is "the workers' friend"? And what's the use of _having_ unions if they refuse to stand up the HR bullies?

Face it; HR are the employment version of the "workplace commissar corps" in the old Soviet Union. The fanatical, ultra-loyal attack dogs of the employer.


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

I iz evil


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> Why don't they oppose it, then? Why don't they put motions forward in the unions they've infested calling for their abolition?



Maybe they're too busy doing their jobs.  And lots of managers aren't in unions anyway (I'm not) though I don't see anything wrong with them joining and giving financial support.


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

innit said:


> Maybe they're too busy doing their jobs.



... implementing reactionary, stupid HR diktats.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> So how does anyone square that one with the laughable notion that HR is "the workers' friend"? And what's the use of _having_ unions if they refuse to stand up the HR bullies?


 
Actually I'm not sure that we're on the same wavelength here. I was suggesting that it's a bad idea to make waves against the HR department's pet projects and interference, because then they'll fuck you back by scuppering your plans to ditch the inept and retain the competent.


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> So how does anyone square that one with the laughable notion that HR is "the workers' friend"? And what's the use of _having_ unions if they refuse to stand up the HR bullies?
> 
> Face it; HR are the employment version of the "workplace commissar corps" in the old Soviet Union. The fanatical, ultra-loyal attack dogs of the employer.


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> ... implementing reactionary, stupid HR diktats.



What?  Most managers do actual work you know!

My time:

80% doing 'work' work

19% doing 'managing' work

1% thinking about HR


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> ... implementing reactionary, stupid HR diktats.



What you need is some decent workplace organisation, imo.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Paid to improve workers conditions, paid as a barrier between management and workers to ensure people are treated, renumerated, trained, generally looked after correctly.
> 
> In an ideal world



Not in any ideal world I'd want to be part of. I do not want to work somewhere where my interests are defended and persued by a group of people paid do so by my employer; I don't think I'd be alone in detecting a possible conflict of interests arising in such a situation. Which is not to say that I don't expect HR departments and their equivalents to abide by the rules; just that I rather rely on the collective negotiating strength of my colleagues (and the work of lay and paid union officers - voted for and employed by us) to determine what those rules are and make sure that they are abided by.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Andy the Don (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> I want her gone, but I've never fired anyone before. I know because of the industry I work in, I can pretty much tell her to walk out the door and never come back


 
That road leads to long & expensive legal disputes. If she is a full time salaried employee of your organisation you will have to go through procedures that have been put in place for a reason. That reason being to cover your employees backside. Read the employees contract & follow the procedure. Or else offer them x months salary to leave. You cannot just sack someone without due cause.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 13, 2008)

Believe it or not, these appraisals forms are supposed to be in the employees' interests.  Yes, get your laughing over with.  But that's how HR see it, at least, and that's the line they have managed to get a fair proportion of the work force to follow.

If, as a manager, you object to them then you are seen as being anti the employees' interests.  Then, ironically, you get labelled as a bad manager.  Bad manager!  Go to your room!


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Believe it or not, these appraisals forms are supposed to be in the employees' interests.  Yes, get your laughing over with.  But that's how HR see it, at least, and that's the line they have managed to get a fair proportion of the work force to follow.
> 
> If, as a manager, you object to them then you are seen as being anti the employees' interests.  Then, ironically, you get labelled as a bad manager.  Bad manager!  Go to your room!



Actually I do think they could be good if everyone understood the process and wanted to participate.

But lots of people mistrust the idea and aren't coming from it from a good place.

As soon as the "appraisee" (vom) doesn't really want to take part, it becomes a complete waste of time as you then have a choice between forcing target on them which they don't really agree to (I refuse to do this) or basically ordering them to come up with something (I'm more than happy to make suggestions but if they aren't in agreement the appraisal becomes a total sham which is not worth the paper it's printed on).


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Believe it or not, these appraisals forms are supposed to be in the employees' interests.  Yes, get your laughing over with.  But that's how HR see it, at least, and that's the line they have managed to get a fair proportion of the work force to follow.



It's known as doublethink. "freedom is slavery" etc.

Quite how they've managed so many people to buy this drivel (including many union reps) is something else.


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> It's known as doublethink. "freedom is slavery" etc.



Freedom to contribute to planning your own work is slavery?


----------



## poster342002 (Feb 13, 2008)

innit said:


> Freedom to contribute to planning your own work is slavery?



But it's not, though, is it? They just call it that.


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> But it's not, though, is it? They just call it that.



Well, that is meant to be the point as I understand it, although obviously I don't think it generally works in practice.


----------



## Crispy (Feb 13, 2008)

If I could _really_ plan my work, I'd get it all done in the morning and fuck off at 1pm, but somehow I don't think HR (if it existed where I work) would like that. Freedom my arse. Choose what colour your jail cell is painted! Whoopee!


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

In my appraisal, I had thoughtfully come up with long term projects which I thought would be beneficial for all concerned and which I also thought I would find interesting.  Which my manager was ok for me to spend time on.

Is that choosing the colour of my jail cell


----------



## Crispy (Feb 13, 2008)

Kinda. Depends how wide a view you take really, doesn't it?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

innit said:


> In my appraisal, I had thoughtfully come up with long term projects which I thought would be beneficial for all concerned and which I also thought I would find interesting.  Which my manager was ok for me to spend time on.
> 
> Is that choosing the colour of my jail cell




Who decides on the wider schemes that these plans have to fit into though?


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

It seems to depend on whether your view is "management is evil and must be resisted" or "I have to work so I may as well make the best of it".


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

Why are work to rules effective?


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Who decides on the wider schemes that these plans have to fit into though?



Our funders (usual vol sector stuff).  The organisation doesn't really call the tune afaict.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

innit said:


> Our funders (usual vol sector stuff).  The organisation doesn't really call the tune afaict.



So what happens then is that you have to come up _sell_ that wider plans to the employees (i.e make up schemes). They don't come up with the plan or the aim(s) themselves. Hence workplace resistance to those plans or the technical organsiation that is supposed to enable those plans to work.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Feb 13, 2008)

innit said:


> It seems to depend on whether your view is "management is evil and must be resisted" or "I have to work so I may as well make the best of it".


 
Perhaps we should have a poll. I, for one, would be intrigued to find out where butchersapron and poster numbers stand on this issue.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

Posh flirts - best in the world.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Feb 13, 2008)

Some proper nonsense on this thread...


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> So what happens then is that you have to come up _sell_ that wider plans to the employees (i.e make up schemes). They don't come up with the plan or the aim(s) themselves. Hence workplace resistance to those plans or the technical organsiation that is supposed to enable those plans to work.



Well yeah, that's the problem.  That's where you need managers with good interpersonal skills to get through to people that certain things are no longer within (any of our) choosing but that we still want to retain as much of our own ethos as possible, or whatever.

Obviously personal autonomy at work is important and the more systems and rules you have, the more care you need to take to respect that and leave room for it.


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Ignoring the twattish Spartists, 8den, can you answer the owl and me? We're worried that you're going to be hauled in front of a tribunal, or at least curious about what industry has this level of exemption from employment law.



She has a short term contract, and we work in the media (insert new torrent of abuse from Topcat, Dotcommunist, and Butchersapron after this line)


----------



## 8ball (Feb 13, 2008)

MEEEEJA!!! 

Do you wear those stupid glasses?


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> She has a short term contract, and we work in the media (insert new torrent of abuse from Topcat, Dotcommunist, and Butchersapron after this line)



The media industry isn't exempt from either the spirit or the letter of employment protection.

What do you mean by a short term contract? How short?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> I have to fire someone who is part of my team.
> 
> I've inherited the department on my new job. Its my first time leading a team. The job is far more long term than I am used to. My senior when briefing me before I started this job that this person was "difficult" and "obstinant" (two adjectives I don't tolerant)
> 
> ...



You took the job, and take the money. I'm pretty much certain that you took the job *knowing* that part of your role would be to discipline and/or hire and fire. If you weren't prepared to do that, then tough fucking luck to yo. If you don't want to be seen as "the man" then quit.
*You* chose to walk the boss route, no-one twisted your arm. Stop whining.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 13, 2008)

Butchers, I'm still curious about what 'glass wearers' are, and why they're evil. 

(Like I asked back in my post on the first page that got completely ignored. Hmph).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Better make sure you do it right, or she'll sue your ass.



In which case I hope 8den "does it wrong", gets a taste of being on the receiving end of shit.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 13, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Butchers, I'm still curious about what 'glass wearers' are, and why they're evil.



Maybe he knew about the media thing and he meant people who wear those 'London media twat' glasses.

Maybe . .


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Butchers, I'm still curious about what 'glass wearers' are, and why they're evil.
> 
> (Like I asked back in my post on the first page that got completely ignored. Hmph).



Sorry, generalised reference to the _intelligensia_:

_It took Mama and Galya two weeks to walk to Kiev [in 1919]. They deliberately dressed to look like beggars; in actual fact, this is what they were. Galya went without glasses, and walked holding on to Mama's shoulder, like a blind woman. No one would have believed them to be poor if Galya had worn her glasses. Everyone treated people in glasses suspiciously in those violent times. They thought them cunning enemies, and hated them bitterly. It is amazing that this distrust of people wearing glasses has persisted up to the present time._

 Konstantin Paustovsky, The Story of a Life


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> Example. Before I arrived it was given that she would not work past 7pm. Two days in a row I was stuck in till 10pm, and on the second day, I left a note (on a massive whiteboard next to her desk) saying I would be in late. At 9:15am the following morning, I got a phonecall from her complaining that her mouse didn't work. Her mouse was unplugged and sitting on her desk. Five minutes later she phoned asking were something was, despite it being clearly labeled and filed in the correct place.



hahahaha she hates you too!


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

While we're doing definitions, what does



butchersapron said:


> Posh flirts - best in the world.



mean?


----------



## johnnymarrsbars (Feb 13, 2008)

if a person can't do their job properly then yeah, fire them. you have nothing to feel guilty about.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Blimey.
> 
> Now, I know you're trolling, but 'glass wearers?' What does that mean? That's a new one to me. Could be quite poetic, once you've told me what it means.



Think Khmer Rouge, Pol Pot, People's Republic of Kampuchea and "year zero".


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

innit said:


> While we're doing definitions, what does
> 
> mean?



That posh people seem to find themselves endlessly interesting. The free floating fuckers


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 13, 2008)

> Example. Before I arrived it was given that she would not work past 7pm. Two days in a row I was stuck in till 10pm, and on the second day, I left a note (on a massive whiteboard next to her desk) saying I would be in late. At 9:15am the following morning, I got a phonecall from her complaining that her mouse didn't work. Her mouse was unplugged and sitting on her desk. Five minutes later she phoned asking were something was, despite it being clearly labeled and filed in the correct place



How is any of this a sacking offence?


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

johnnymarrsbars said:


> if a person can't do their job properly then yeah, fire them. you have nothing to feel guilty about.



'ad geek's words of wisdom. Has that ever happened to you?


----------



## 8ball (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> That posh people seem to find themselves endlessly interesting. The free floating fuckers



Does being confused make me posh


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

8ball said:


> MEEEEJA!!!
> 
> Do you wear those stupid glasses?



I do wear glasses, but they are specsaver. 

VP I do it's just I've never worked with someone this, well, difficult, and obstinate, the job is supposed to be long hours, it's detailed and it's exacting, I'm not sure what she was expecting, but I've never had a problem motivating someone because they should know what they are supposed to do, and not moan about it. 

cesare, you're right in principle, utterly 100% right. In reality it is completely different. 

I turn you over to Charlie Brooker;

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NIyg2a72uV4

This isn't comedy, this is reality.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> How is any of this a sacking offence?



It _was_ a MASSIVE whiteboard.


----------



## johnnymarrsbars (Feb 13, 2008)

cesare said:


> 'ad geek's words of wisdom. Has that ever happened to you?




i hate to have to be the one to break it to a lot of people on here, but the world isn't some marxist utopia where everyone has a job they like and is totally equal. there's such a thing as competition and hierarchy in the workplace- if someone isn't doing their job properly through lazyness/bitterness then yes, they should be fired. if they were doing their job properly they wouldn't be in that position.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

kabbes said:


> Helpful.



But accurate, given that the ability to negatively affect the working environment of others usually entails the abuse of power.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Feb 13, 2008)

To all the spluttery angry types... you're running a small business, 20 people say. You've put your heart and soul and every penny you've had into the business. Somehow a right plank is hired and does fuck all, has massive attitude problems, and is seriously damaging the business by dragging everyone else down. They've not committed gross misconduct. 

How would you deal with this? Hold their hand until they smiled? Hug them into pulling their weight?

I agree the OP has a lot to learn, and is going about everything in the wrong way, but there seems to be the idea that it's perfectly fine for someone to be a waste of space and that it should be tolerated because getting rid of them would automatically make you a cunt.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Feb 13, 2008)

johnnymarrsbars said:


> i hate to have to be the one to break it to a lot of people on here, but the world isn't some marxist utopia where everyone has a job they like and is totally equal. there's such a thing as competition and hierarchy in the workplace- if someone isn't doing their job properly through lazyness/bitterness then yes, they should be fired. if they were doing their job properly they wouldn't be in that position.



I'd tend to agree. 

Making a massive generalisation here, but sulky, moany workers who do fuck all, often tend to be able to flit from one job to another because they're free from financial worry. People who need the money put the effort it whether they like the job or not.

It's capitalism and it's not going anywhere, so why not adapt?


----------



## Santino (Feb 13, 2008)

ChrisFilter said:


> To all the spluttery angry types... you're running a small business, 20 people say. You've put your heart and soul and every penny you've had into the business. Somehow a right plank is hired and does fuck all, has massive attitude problems, and is seriously damaging the business by dragging everyone else down. They've not committed gross misconduct.
> 
> How would you deal with this? Hold their hand until they smiled? Hug them into pulling their weight?
> 
> I agree the OP has a lot to learn, and is going about everything in the wrong way, but there seems to be the idea that it's perfectly fine for someone to be a waste of space and that it should be tolerated because getting rid of them would automatically make you a cunt.


You don't understand Chris, the only reason people don't do their job properly is because of the evil management. Left to our own devices or organised through a union we would all be efficient and happy bunnies, and never laze around or take the piss.


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 13, 2008)

The thing is the OP doesn't really seem to have tried doing any _managing_ of this *problem colleague*


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

That's right chris, take a totally different case and pretend that's the one we're talking about. Then apply the responses given to to the original case to your one as if that's what they were.


----------



## Santino (Feb 13, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> The thing is the OP doesn't really seem to have tried doing any _managing_ of this *problem colleague*


Quiet, you. People are trying to argue here.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> That's right chris, take a totally different case and pretend that's the one we're talking about. Then apply the responses given to to the original case to your one as if that's what they were.



I was asking a different question...


----------



## ChrisFilter (Feb 13, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> The thing is the OP doesn't really seem to have tried doing any _managing_ of this *problem colleague*



Oh, I know, I acknowledged the OP was being a bit of a muppet.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Feb 13, 2008)

Alex B said:


> You don't understand Chris, the only reason people don't do their job properly is because of the evil management. Left to our own devices or organised through a union we would all be efficient and happy bunnies, and never laze around or take the piss.



But of course!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 13, 2008)

ChrisFilter said:


> Making a massive generalisation here, but sulky, moany workers who do fuck all, often tend to be able to flit from one job to another because they're free from financial worry. People who need the money put the effort it whether they like the job or not.



Completely the opposite in my experience. People who have the ability to "flit" between jobs are often there because they want to be. The people who really gripe and fuck things up are those in the latter stages of "job that I hate but need to pay the bills", moving through "christ I'm so bloody miserable though" and towards the "I can't afford to lose this job but fuck it, I hate it so much" point. Recently seen a friend go all the way through this come to think of it.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

ChrisFilter said:


> I was asking a different question...



Then applying some (and only some) people's respsones to the OP to your new case - and frankly building a fair few strawmen on the way. Hugging them? Holding their hand? Come on chris, it's a ridiculous and tendentious example.

I agree though, it's a toally different question and nothing to do with this thread as far as i can see, so another thread...?


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> cesare, you're right in principle, utterly 100% right. In reality it is completely different.



You contribute to the reality, you don't have to behave in the way that you perceive the industry works. Incidentally ... you've only got to look at some of the huge compensations made to workers in City firms & the comments made by Employment Judges related to City 'behaviour' to see that industries and sectors aren't exempt merely because they set themselves outside of decent behaviour.

Anyway, how long _is_ this short term contract?


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Completely the opposite in my experience. People who have the ability to "flit" between jobs are often there because they want to be. The people who really gripe and fuck things up are those in the latter stages of "job that I hate but need to pay the bills", moving through "christ I'm so bloody miserable though" and towards the "I can't afford to lose this job but fuck it, I hate it so much" point. Recently seen a friend go all the way through this come to think of it.



I'd tend to agree with you, but it's just a reminder of why ppl should do their best to get out of a bad job early on - before the loss of confidence etc sets in.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Feb 13, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Completely the opposite in my experience. People who have the ability to "flit" between jobs are often there because they want to be. The people who really gripe and fuck things up are those in the latter stages of "job that I hate but need to pay the bills", moving through "christ I'm so bloody miserable though" and towards the "I can't afford to lose this job but fuck it, I hate it so much" point. Recently seen a friend go all the way through this come to think of it.



Ah, fair play. Most of the people like that that I've ever worked with have just been bored, but haven't got their arse in gear to move.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I agree though, it's a toally different question and nothing to do with this thread as far as i can see, so another thread...?



Ok.


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

johnnymarrsbars said:


> i hate to have to be the one to break it to a lot of people on here, but the world isn't some marxist utopia where everyone has a job they like and is totally equal. there's such a thing as competition and hierarchy in the workplace- if someone isn't doing their job properly through lazyness/bitterness then yes, they should be fired. if they were doing their job properly they wouldn't be in that position.



I hate to have to be the one to have to break it to you - but you can't just dismiss someone without due process just because you think that your industry is exempt from following decent standards of behaviour. And if you do, you'll likely face a claim. Nothing to do with 'marxist utopia' - and all to do with fairness.

So - has this ever happened to you?


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> VP I do it's just I've never worked with someone this, well, difficult, and obstinate, the job is supposed to be long hours, it's detailed and it's exacting, I'm not sure what she was expecting, but I've never had a problem motivating someone because they should know what they are supposed to do, and not moan about it.


An ancient Chinese sage (well, okay, it was a Japanese philosophy grad working over here in a Jap bank) once said to me that if you're "in charge", then the way your workplace runs, the degree to which your staff are engaged with their work, is a direct reflection of what *you* have contributed.
In the last 20 years I've never seen any workplace dynamic to which that *doesn't* apply.

Perhaps you're part of the problem?


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

ChrisFilter said:


> I agree the OP has a lot to learn, and is going about everything in the wrong way, but there seems to be the idea that it's perfectly fine for someone to be a waste of space and that it should be tolerated because getting rid of them would automatically make you a cunt.



Okay so maybe some more information would help;

By short term, I mean we're out the door, and finished up, by at the latest Nov. That means we're both going to be looking for a job within the year. Nature of the industry.

I came in completely tried not to have a bias, against her, but her attitude to doing work was rotten. I was working out of the office for two days last week, and came back seeing the amount of work she hadn't done, and she could not give a decent account of what she was doing. So after two long days out of the office, I have a long day in the office catching up on the work she didn't bother doing. If I cannot rely on her to do her job whats the point in having her in the office.

I'm not going into the specifics of the job, but this is not working on some flash animation company in hoxton, or some shitty reality show for five, it's a proper gig, there's plenty of people out there that would love the job, I don't see why I need to be burdened with someone who sees this position as some sort of fucking hassle they're going to endure, when I can have someone I can work with.

Thanks butchers top cat et all, you've made this much fucking easier for me, by making me annoyed.


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> An ancient Chinese sage (well, okay, it was a Japanese philosophy grad working over here in a Jap bank) once said to me that if you're "in charge", then the way your workplace runs, the degree to which your staff are engaged with their work, is a direct reflection of what *you* have contributed.
> In the last 20 years I've never seen any workplace dynamic to which that *doesn't* apply.
> 
> Perhaps you're part of the problem?



Well no, because there's other people who work with me, and answer to me, and I've no problem with them. I ask them to do the work, the work gets done. 

With her it takes her three times as long to do anything, as everybody else.


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

When did her contract start?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

ChrisFilter said:


> To all the spluttery angry types... you're running a small business, 20 people say. You've put your heart and soul and every penny you've had into the business. Somehow a right plank is hired and does fuck all, has massive attitude problems, and is seriously damaging the business by dragging everyone else down. They've not committed gross misconduct.



If I were you I'd be asking myself what sort of cunt I was for hiring a dickwad in the first place.
Why? Because "somehow a right plank was hired" isn't acceptable. Someone is avoiding taking responsibility, and their avoidance means that the "plank" is continuing to de-stabilise everyone else because of *you*.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> Okay so maybe some more information would help;
> 
> By short term, I mean we're out the door, and finished up, by at the latest Nov. That means we're both going to be looking for a job within the year. Nature of the industry.
> 
> ...



I'd tend to agree with you... it was more the wording of your post that set you up for a fall. In a competitive industry, if someone doesn't pull their weight then yeah, fuck off. As you say, plenty of other people who'd love to be there.

Of course the problem comes when you start to wander if she's always been shit, or is she going through a painful divorce? Does she have a kid who's very ill? Has she recently had a bereavement?


----------



## baldrick (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> So after two long days out of the office, I have a long day in the office catching up on the work she didn't bother doing.


If you're her manager, why are you doing her work for her?  Why aren't you letting her take responsibility for the work she fails to do?

If you're constantly there to prop her up, then the situation isn't going to get any better.

Anyway, you've decided what you want to do, so....


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> Thanks butchers top cat et all, you've made this much fucking easier for me, by making me annoyed.



That's right - it's almost as if we're the ones sacking her. Scraping the bottom there.


----------



## innit (Feb 13, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> If I were you I'd be asking myself what sort of cunt I was for hiring a dickwad in the first place.
> Why? Because "somehow a right plank was hired" isn't acceptable. Someone is avoiding taking responsibility, and their avoidance means that the "plank" is continuing to de-stabilise everyone else because of *you*.



I'd agree with that, but the OP didn't hire this woman.

She's obviously become demotivated at some point in time but it does sound like he's inherited a former manager's cock-up rather than having created the situation himself.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

Alex B said:


> Quiet, you. People are trying to argue here.



You class yourself as a person?

Interesting.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Feb 13, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> If I were you I'd be asking myself what sort of cunt I was for hiring a dickwad in the first place.
> Why? Because "somehow a right plank was hired" isn't acceptable. Someone is avoiding taking responsibility, and their avoidance means that the "plank" is continuing to de-stabilise everyone else because of *you*.



It was a hypothetical situation, I don't run a business.

I also don't think that hiring someone then later finding out that they're slack, negative and rude makes you a 'cunt'. Nor is it necessarily anyone's fault.


----------



## Santino (Feb 13, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> You class yourself as a person?
> 
> Interesting.


Have we met?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> Well no, because there's other people who work with me, and answer to me, and I've no problem with them. I ask them to do the work, the work gets done.
> 
> With her it takes her three times as long to do anything, as everybody else.



You're missing the point.

It isn't about whether *you* have a problem with any of *them*, it's (and always should be) about whether any of *them* have a problem with *you*, and what *you* (being the person in the position of power) can do to resolve it. 

In other words, you are as responsible to them as they are to you, their failures are, explicitly, your failures, because *you*, as their "manager"/"supervisor"/"boss"/"overseer" have power, and obviously haven't used it wisely.
But don't sweat it. quite a high proportion of people in "boss" roles are just as clueless as to their obligations, seeing "management" as a "top-down" _diktat_-based enterprise.


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

VP I'm not a wanker, I've sat her down, made tea, I've asked her if there is anything wrong, anything she wants to talk about. Nope, neit nadda. 

There's nothing wrong that she's telling me about, first day on the job I brought her out to lunch, and got to know her, she mentioned none of the above. 

When I had her job, years ago, I worked with a man who's managerial style was based on Lee  Ermey. I've worked for utter cocks and bastards, I've been the guy dragged in at 7am, and left to work till 1am, even though I was the lowest paid. And I swore I'd never do that. 

All I'm asking from her is to be in at 9, work till 7 (with an hours lunch, it may sound fucking rotten, but in media circles those hours are 9-5) be capable of working independently, and do her job efficiently.


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## untethered (Feb 13, 2008)

I'll sack her for you. Sometimes it's better coming from a disinterested person.

_Untethered Human Resources Services_ - cutting out the dead wood is only a phone call away.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

innit said:


> I'd agree with that, but the OP didn't hire this woman.
> 
> She's obviously become demotivated at some point in time but it does sound like he's inherited a former manager's cock-up rather than having created the situation himself.



I don't personally believe that who hired her matters. It sounds as if this "issue" has been taking place over a length of time, and if that's so then who's more at fault; the staff member who's allowed to "get away" with stuff, or the "boss" who has let it slide?


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

When did her contract start?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 13, 2008)

One thing that really fucking gets my goat is people that insist that their industry "just works like this."  It's utter, utter wankery, created by those with so little imagination that the only way they can make any kind of impression is to throw lots and lots of mud at the wall by working more hours than anybody else.

My industry "works like this" too, with people routinely doing 12 hour days.  That's the City for you.  But personally, my company is lucky if they get 7 hours out of me and I encourage "my" staff to have the same attitude.  However, with my usual joking on the matter aside, you have to actually earn this by not letting anybody down and coming up with things that genuinely take the company forward.  It's what you do that counts, not how long it takes you it.  And if there are still things that take longer than you working those hours on full efficiency, the company simply needs to employ more people.  Somehow, this attitude hasn't stopped me from reaching the top echelons at an unusually young age.  Which proves that clockwatching and petty sniping about other peoples' work practices ain't worth shit.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Sorry, generalised reference to the _intelligensia_:
> 
> _It took Mama and Galya two weeks to walk to Kiev [in 1919]. They deliberately dressed to look like beggars; in actual fact, this is what they were. Galya went without glasses, and walked holding on to Mama's shoulder, like a blind woman. No one would have believed them to be poor if Galya had worn her glasses. Everyone treated people in glasses suspiciously in those violent times. They thought them cunning enemies, and hated them bitterly. It is amazing that this distrust of people wearing glasses has persisted up to the present time._
> 
> Konstantin Paustovsky, The Story of a Life



Thanks for the explanation.

But that doesn't say that glasses-wearers were bad and wrong, just that they were viewed with suspicion. 



ViolentPanda said:


> Think Khmer Rouge, Pol Pot, People's Republic of Kampuchea and "year zero".



That was caused by the wearing of glasses?

Blimey. You learn something new every day.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

ChrisFilter said:


> It was a hypothetical situation, I don't run a business.


I gathered that.


> I also don't think that hiring someone then later finding out that they're slack, negative and rude makes you a 'cunt'. Nor is it necessarily anyone's fault.


If I'd hired someone and later found them to be like that I *would* call myself a cunt, and blame myself, because the mistake would have been mine.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

scifisam said:


> That was caused by the wearing of glasses?
> 
> Blimey. You learn something new every day.



It wasn't caused by it, but the wearing of glasses was one of the criteria by which the Khmer Rouge came to judge whether or not someone was an "intellectual" and therefore needed to be "liquidated" (or "murdered" as we sometimes call it).


----------



## scifisam (Feb 13, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> It wasn't caused by it, but the wearing of glasses was one of the criteria by which the Khmer Rouge came to judge whether or not someone was an "intellectual" and therefore needed to be "liquidated" (or "murdered" as we sometimes call it).



Ah. TY.

Seems a little odd that someone's using it as a genuine insult now then!


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> I gathered that.
> 
> If I'd hired someone and later found them to be like that I *would* call myself a cunt, and blame myself, because the mistake would have been mine.



But I didn't fecking hire her!


----------



## ChrisFilter (Feb 13, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> I gathered that.
> 
> If I'd hired someone and later found them to be like that I *would* call myself a cunt, and blame myself, because the mistake would have been mine.



Regardless of blame for the hiring, the problem stil needs to be dealt with, regardless of how much a cunt you think you are.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Ah. TY.
> 
> Seems a little odd that someone's using it as a genuine insult now then!




It wasn't genuine!


----------



## poului (Feb 13, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Completely unnaceptable levels of abuse on this thread, quite aside from the actual points being made. NO more of it, please.




I disagree. Can we archive this one?


----------



## A Dashing Blade (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> I have to fire someone who is part of my team.
> 
> My senior when briefing me before I started this job that this person was "difficult" and "obstinant" (two adjectives I don't tolerant)
> 
> ...



Get HR in the loop immediately, tell them what you want to happen and for them to make it happen. Job done.


----------



## A Dashing Blade (Feb 13, 2008)

.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> My assistant is around my age, when I left college after getting a BA and started out at the bottom, she took a different route, went and got a MA, and er, left college to become my trainee. She's bitter, difficult to work with, uncommunicative and obnoxious. She's also got pathetic time keeping skills.
> 
> 
> 
> .


She sounds like a bitter trollop IMO, who is up her won arse and looks down on you cos you've for a BA. Just sack the miserable cow, preferably on the week before the blob when she's in a foul mood.


----------



## isitme (Feb 13, 2008)

She wouldn't fuck you in exchange for a promotion and now you're going to show her who's boss by sacking her? What a guy!


----------



## Wookey (Feb 13, 2008)

> One thing that really fucking gets my goat is people that insist that their industry "just works like this."  It's utter, utter wankery, created by those with so little imagination that the only way they can make any kind of impression is to throw lots and lots of mud at the wall by working more hours than anybody else.[j/quote]
> 
> I agree, kabbes - and it's an excuse endemic to the media industry, where there is a long queue of people waiting to take your job (and don't management just love to remind you of it?). Last recourse of the scoundrel manager, imo.
> 
> ...


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Sorry, generalised reference to the _intelligensia_:


 
Yeah, fuck those intelligensia bastards - no genuine working class person could possibly fail to spot a Paustovsky quote!


----------



## Skimix (Feb 13, 2008)

kabbes said:


> One thing that really fucking gets my goat is people that insist that their industry "just works like this."  It's utter, utter wankery, created by those with so little imagination that the only way they can make any kind of impression is to throw lots and lots of mud at the wall by working more hours than anybody else.



I don't totally agree with this...on IT projects its generally accepted that towards go-live everyone will be working their butts off and doing long hours, thats just the way it is in the vast majority of cases.  However, if someone has been doing this for a few weeks up to this point then I'd cut them a lot of slack for a few weeks afterwards.


----------



## Skimix (Feb 13, 2008)

Wookey said:


> The best advice I was given was: If they are no problem, ignore them. If they are a problem, become their best mate at work and stay close by until the problem is solved. So many managers try it the other way around, and are close to those who conform, and ignore (or sack) those who pose a problem, or threaten their position of authority, or remind them of how little about management they actually know.



I'm not completely convinced by the bit about ignoring the no problem guys!  But definitely agree about being close to those who causing issues.


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

Wookey said:


> The best advice I was given was: If they are no problem, ignore them. If they are a problem, become their best mate at work and stay close by until the problem is solved.



I'm sorry I don't have time to fix her problem. I need someone who can do the job competently now. This is not a job I can hire anyone into, its going to take weeks to train someone up.

 She spent three hours last week (during work hours and in front of me) flirting with our graphics junior to get him to design her business card for her. She's off at a festival at the moment, slipping that card around along with her showreel, both of which describe her as someone three ranks above her current position. 

Nothing wrong with that, if she feels she is ready to step up to that level so be it, she doesn't get to spend her time waiting for a director to call, doing mediocre work for me clock watching. 



> So many managers try it the other way around, and are close to those who conform, and ignore (or sack) those who pose a problem, or threaten their position of authority, or remind them of how little about management they actually know.
> 
> The OPs response to my long post shows me they are in no position to be managing people, it was a classic displacement tactic of the kind that allows them to admit anything except fault.



Yeah, again you're projecting here wookey.


----------



## Wookey (Feb 13, 2008)

Skimix said:


> I'm not completely convinced by the bit about ignoring the no problem guys!  But definitely agree about being close to those who causing issues.



Yeah, 'ignore' is too strong. Positive reinforcement, and chocolate treats.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> She spent three hours last week (during work hours and in front of me) flirting with our graphics junior to get him to design her business card for her. She's off at a festival at the moment, slipping that card around along with her showreel, both of which describe her as someone three ranks above her current position


 
This kind of post makes you sound less like a professional struggling with the choice of who to keep on the team to make 'the project' succeed, and more like somebody who's jealous of the graphics junior.


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

*#3*

When did her contract start, 8den?


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Feb 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> [i
> You poor poor boy. Too scared to do what you want done. Too scared to face the consequences. Want a bit of love on here.
> 
> Kill yourself. Put you head in whatever tank you have and force it down. You might need a helper here. Kill yourself.



 poor old Butch, the piles must be hanging right down your arse cheeks for you to get this grumpy.
Do they bleed sometimes, when you're straining?


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> This kind of post makes you sound less like a professional struggling with the choice of who to keep on the team to make 'the project' succeed, and more like somebody who's jealous of the graphics junior.



As did this from the OP:




			
				8den said:
			
		

> My assistant is around my age, when I left college after getting a BA and started out at the bottom, she took a different route, went and got a MA, and er, left college to become my trainee.


----------



## Skimix (Feb 13, 2008)

Wookey said:


> ...and chocolate treats.



Management by chocolate...always works


----------



## Wookey (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> I'm sorry I don't have time to fix her problem. I need someone who can do the job competently now. This is not a job I can hire anyone into, its going to take weeks to train someone up.



So whether you spend a few weeks closely managing her up to scratch, or a few weeks training up her replacement, you're going to have to commit some time to getting your department back on fighting form. Take the first approach, and you risk getting a reputation as a failing manager, you might risk a law suit, and you will certainly feel like shit. The other way might leave you with a new member of staff who starts off well - and then descends to the same behaviour as this one, and for similar reasons. Perhaps by this time your contract will have ended, and it won't matter. But will _you _have improved as a manager? I don't believe sacking someone improves you as a manager, do you?



> She spent three hours last week (during work hours and in front of me) flirting with our graphics junior to get him to design her business card for her. She's off at a festival at the moment, slipping that card around along with her showreel, both of which describe her as someone three ranks above her current position.



And what did you say to her while she was asking the designer to 'do a foreigner' when she should have been tackling in-house work? Id you s



> Yeah, again you're projecting here wookey.



I'm really not, I've had some great managers, and I've learned a lot from them, and I've been a good manager myself, so I've put into practice what I'm talking about. 

I've only really had one dreadful manager, and she went through staff like bottles of milk. She had a reputation for being poor, but managed to get through her career by projecting her weaknesses onto her staff, and pretending that their strengths were actually hers.

I once wanted to sack someone, and my partner told me: 'Imagine that sacking them is impossible, it just is not going to happen. Now, what ould you do instead?'

Of course, what I did instead was manage them to within an inch of their life. If my lazy boy stood at his desk talking, I asked him what he was doing, and could he possibly give me a hand - and then clearly dished out some work for me, and some work for him, and said 'Meet you back here in an hour, we'll see how far we've got.'

If he took private calls on his mobile when we were on deadline, I reminded him that deadlines came first. If he turned up for work a hour late every day for a week, I moved the editorial meeting to 9am, and then asked him to chair the meeting instead of me (he loved that one, actually!)

In the end, he became a good mate of mine, and told me years afterwards that a lot of his issue was plain boredom, and the more I asked him to do, the less bored he got. We'd solved the problem, not just for me, but for him as well - and for the rest of his career he knows that process-heavy jobs are not the right jobs for him.

My immediate manager was all for sacking my lazy boy, it was me who said: 'He's a nice lad, I can build on that.'

When this woman failed to keep up with the workload on those two days you were away, what did you say to her? What process did you put in place to ensure that couldn't happen again? You said she didn't have an answer - but to a disinterested party it looks a bit like you didn't _find_ the answer. There is an answer, isn't there? There had to be a reason?

If we believe what you say, and believe that she is just taking the piss out of you, presumably because she thinks you aren't strong enough to challenge her, or quick enough to stop her, would you (for arguments sake) take it on the chin that you might not be strong enough or quick enough, and that she is running circles around you?

In which case, aren't you at least partly responsible for things getting so bad? And further, don't you have some responsibility for putting them right, before you just sack her?

In my experience, most capabable adults don't behave that way, trying to get away with as little work as possible _unless there is another underlying problem_. Most adults really do want to be useful, and proud of what they do - especially professional media workers, short-term contract or not.

Is her job just shit? Be honest now!!


----------



## Wookey (Feb 13, 2008)

Skimix said:


> Management by chocolate...always works



Yup, works for me. And drinks at the pub, and a decent Christmas do, and extended lunches in the park when the weather is nice.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> She's off at a festival at the moment.



What festival?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> It wasn't caused by it, but the wearing of glasses was one of the criteria by which the Khmer Rouge came to judge whether or not someone was an "intellectual" and therefore needed to be "liquidated" (or "murdered" as we sometimes call it).


 

the essential stupidity of this has always amazed me. Did they not realised that anyone who wore glasses and had half a brain might be inclined to dump sead vision correcting devices when they saw which way the wind was blowing?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> Nothing wrong with that, if she feels she is ready to step up to that level so be it,


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2008)

Stobart Stopper said:


> poor old Butch, the piles must be hanging right down your arse cheeks for you to get this grumpy.
> Do they bleed sometimes, when you're straining?



Right in your husbands face. Lick them clean my good man.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 13, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> the essential stupidity of this has always amazed me. Did they not realised that anyone who wore glasses and had half a brain might be inclined to dump sead vision correcting devices when they saw which way the wind was blowing?



And then not be able to see?


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 13, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> the essential stupidity of this has always amazed me. Did they not realised that anyone who wore glasses and had half a brain might be inclined to dump sead vision correcting devices when they saw which way the wind was blowing?


 
Yeah, I'm sure the cleverest of them managed to cheerfully throw their specs to the wind and run gleefully off into the nearest lamp-post, and pick themselves up again, confident in the belief that neighbours who barely knew them wouldn't be swayed by torture into denouncing local glasses-wearers.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 13, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> Yeah, I'm sure the cleverest of them managed to cheerfully throw their specs to the wind and run gleefully off into the nearest lamp-post.



You said it much more funnily than me


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2008)

scifisam said:


> And then not be able to see?


 

hmmm, semi-blindness or death. Such a difficult choice


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> This kind of post makes you sound less like a professional struggling with the choice of who to keep on the team to make 'the project' succeed, and more like somebody who's jealous of the graphics junior.



A world of no. 

See it's shit like this, she's perfectly capable of being charming and pleasant when she wants something from someone, it's just she has a rotten attitude to the job she supposed to be doing, and would much rather be doing something else. 




			
				wookey said:
			
		

> Take the first approach, and you risk getting a reputation as a failing manager



Again no, I'm not alone in my opinion of her, in fact everyone who has to work with her can't stand her.



> So whether you spend a few weeks closely managing her up to scratch, or a few weeks training up her replacement, you're going to have to commit some time to getting your department back on fighting form.



I would rather find someone bright keen and motivated to do the job, rather than make her become motivated, pleasant and hard working. One requires someone marginally technically savvy with the right attitude, the other requires giving her a complete personality transplant. 



> And what did you say to her while she was asking the designer to 'do a foreigner' when she should have been tackling in-house work?



The first time I let it slide as it was around lunch time, the second I politely told her, that I appreciated that this was side project that was important to her, but there was other actual work to do done, and could she restrain from this, until all her other work was completed, or continue it out of office hours. The third time, I told her it was unacceptable, to be tying up resources during company hours when she had other things to be doing.




> In which case, aren't you at least partly responsible for things getting so bad? And further, don't you have some responsibility for putting them right, before you just sack her?



Things were bad before I got here. I'm a little unclear here, I'm supposed to be responsible for a thirty year old woman with a masters who cannot figure out basic civility and communication skills. 

I'm her boss not her fucking life coach. 



> Is her job just shit? Be honest now!



I'm sure she'd rather being doing something more creative, but this isn't the first time she's had a similar job, this one is if anything more varied, requiring a series of skills, and challenging.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 13, 2008)

If all of the above facts you posted are true, why are you worrying about firing her?
If you are a manager it's part of your job, not the best part but a part of it nonetheless.


----------



## EastEnder (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> She spent three hours last week (during work hours and in front of me) flirting with our graphics junior to get him to design her business card for her. She's off at a festival at the moment, slipping that card around along with her showreel, both of which describe her as someone three ranks above her current position.


To be any good at managing people you have to try to suppress your personal feelings, and it sounds to me like you've decided you just don't like this person. You can't be truly objective if personal prejudice is clouding your judgement. Does the fact that she's flirting with other staff or attempting to shamelessly promote herself have any direct relevance to her competency or ability to fulfil her contractual obligations? Perhaps she isn't fulfilling those obligations, but the fact that you appear to focus on such things as "flirting with our graphics junior" makes me think your assessment of her is not objective. You don't have to like someone to treat them fairly - stick to the relevant facts rather than dwelling on traits that you, personally, may find objectionable.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 13, 2008)

kabbes said:
			
		

> One thing that really fucking gets my goat is people that insist that their industry "just works like this."





Skimix said:


> on IT projects its generally accepted that towards go-live everyone will be working their butts off and doing long hours, *thats just the way it is* in the vast majority of cases.



There's a certain irony there 

I have done my share of "oh shit I need to get the last tube" wake-commute-work-commute-sleep-repeat days, but after the last time, when I was put under pressure to do this over Christmas and it was made out that it was my fault in the first place - rather than management's for giving me no support, stupid deadlines and no proper specs - my attitude, here outlined in Powerpoint-suitable format, became:




			
				me said:
			
		

> *So you want me to work extra hours on this because Sales have made stupid promises which you've agreed to and you won't budget for anyone else or plan anything properly?*
> 
> 1. Fuck your project;
> 2. Fuck Sales;
> ...



It doesn't _have_ to be like that is what I'm saying. The reason that it often is is that IT project management is _terrible_, usually involving bullshitting upper management that things can get done quickly, then bullying people who already have a dozen other things that need doing until they add another one, and that's it.


----------



## Meltingpot (Feb 13, 2008)

Have you given her a warning yet? If not, everybody deserves a chance to pull themselves together IMO so what I'd suggest is two warnings before you give her the boot. 

The first one oral and fairly informal, telling her her work isn't up to the standard you expect of her. The second one written, saying that if she doesn't pull her socks up by such-and-such a time you're going to have to "let her go". If that doesn't do the trick, simply say, "I'm terribly sorry, <whatever her name is> but you're fired." End of story.


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

Meltingpot said:


> Have you given her a warning yet? If not, everybody deserves a chance to pull themselves together IMO so what I'd suggest is two warnings before you give her the boot.
> 
> The first one oral and fairly informal, telling her her work isn't up to the standard you expect of her. The second one written, saying that if she doesn't pull her socks up by such-and-such a time you're going to have to "let her go". If that doesn't do the trick, simply say, "I'm terribly sorry, <whatever her name is> but you're fired." End of story.



I've given her a verbal warning. 




> but the fact that you appear to focus on such things as "flirting with our graphics junior" makes me think your assessment of her is not objective.



I should clarify it's not the flirting its the fact that she can be perfectly pleasant and charming, _when she chooses to be_. She can spend her day approaching her work with the enthusiasm of a teenager made to tidy her room, but she then suddenly turns on the charm when somebody has something they can do for her.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

Wookey said:


> 8den, listen up lover! I'm going to talk nicely to you, I might be one of the few here with the patience to do that.
> 
> Sadly, you are failing at your job. You sound quite young, and inexperienced, and this is your first management role, so the fact that you have been promoted beyond your current capabilities is not surprising, and not something you should be blamed for. Most people would take a well-paid job in their field if it was offered to them, regardless of their missing skills (like people management, team building, human resources, etc) - hoping to fill in these gaps along the way.
> 
> ...




This is a nice piece of writing.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> 1. Butchersapron. Gosh, I'd say more but my "legal team" has advised me to keep stum. .


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> Wookey your advice was sensible and thoughtful, thank you. But it's not really applicable, she doesn't have much contact with management aside from myself, I bear the brunt of her attitude. You also seem to be transfering your own issues, and opinions about something else onto me, you don't know much about this situation, but are making numerous assumptions about me, the job, and her.



All he knows or we know, is what you told us. Given that you didn't really seem to be wanting advice, perhaps all you were doing was showing off about your power, to the U75 readers.

After all, you must be an important man, if you have the power of firing over some people.  It's sort of like Zeus casting bolts from Olympus, but scaled down to take place in some nondescript suite of offices, someplace in London.


----------



## Fullyplumped (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> I'm her boss not her fucking life coach.


That tells me that you aren't a manager. You see yourself as a "boss" but you seem to model how a boss behaves on characters off the telly. Lots of people have given you loads of good advice today. Wookey in particular has taken a lot of time to share his experience. You have given nothing but excuses.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> A world of no.
> 
> See it's shit like this, she's perfectly capable of being charming and pleasant when she wants something from someone, it's just she has a rotten attitude to the job she supposed to be doing, and would much rather be doing something else.
> 
> ...


That is probably one of the most contemptible posts that i think i've ever read on here. You don't deserve having someone like Wookey taking all that time to be progressive and positive towards 'your' predicament. Cos the garbage and hatred that drips through your words are cant enough. I pity her but i think that she's probably well off away from someone so certain and sure of their inherent rightness. I've deleted my swear words from this cos there were a few. You sad sad person.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 13, 2008)

This thread truly shows what has happened to U75.  Pretty soon there'll be people moaning that their SUV got a ticket for parking on the pavement, or boasting about how they shouted "fuck off" at a skunk-sayer on Coldharbour Lane.


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> That is probably one of the most contemptible posts that i think i've ever read on here. You don't deserve having someone like Wookey taking all that time to be progressive and positive towards 'your' predicament. Cos the garbage and hatred that drips through your words are cant enough. I pity her but i think that she's probably well off away from someone so certain and sure of their inherent rightness. I've deleted my swear words from this cos there were a few. You sad sad person.



Wookey's taken a lot of time and effort there, and I don't really think he deserved 8den's reaction tbh.

8den's had a variety of reactions on the thread (both helpful and critical) - but the more he posts, the more he seems to reveal a personal antipathy to this woman that seems disproportionate to the amount of time that he indicates that he's been working with her.

From a purely pragmatic point of view, I've now asked 3 times how long this woman has been in post - it's the most basic of questions when trying to establish what 'short term' actually means in the context of her employment rights ... no response.

It's just a personal opinion, but I get the impression that 8den wasn't asking for advice when he originally posted and as the thread progressed he's gone on the defensive - but in a way that (for me) serves to reinforce some of the initial opinions that I drew from his OP.


----------



## the button (Feb 13, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> This thread truly shows what has happened to U75.  Pretty soon there'll be people moaning that their SUV got a ticket for parking on the pavement, or boasting about how they shouted "fuck off" at a skunk-sayer on Coldharbour Lane.



.... or indeed saying that they're considering voting for a candidate in the London mayoral elections who talks about the RMT "holding Londoners to ransom." 

Ah well. Fiddly dee. And so on.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 13, 2008)

cesare said:


> Wookey's taken a lot of time and effort there, and I don't really think he deserved 8den's reaction tbh.
> 
> 8den's had a variety of reactions on the thread (both helpful and critical) - but the more he posts, the more he seems to reveal a personal antipathy to this woman that seems disproportionate to the amount of time that he indicates that he's been working with her.
> 
> ...


Ain't much point me posting more cos i'll only swear like billy-o tbh.


----------



## Wookey (Feb 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> This is a nice piece of writing.



Thankyou JC, that's the first time you've ever said that.


----------



## newbie (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> this isn't the first time she's had a similar job, this one is if anything more varied, requiring a series of skills, and challenging.



It may not be her first time, but is it yours?  producing the show, knowing the buck stops with you??  

From here it looks like you're getting hysterical in February  on a project that isn't due to air until November.  She's experienced and smart, maybe she's just watching your headless chicken act and is waiting for you to burn out before getting down to the hard work with your replacement.


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Ain't much point me posting more cos i'll only swear like billy-o tbh.



Hey hey

Better they're there where you can see em, like. Anyway, chances are that 8den will be on the receiving end of some of this type of crap at some point - doesn't help the lass in question now though.


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

cesare said:


> Wookey's taken a lot of time and effort there, and I don't really think he deserved 8den's reaction tbh.
> 
> 8den's had a variety of reactions on the thread (both helpful and critical) - but the more he posts, the more he seems to reveal a personal antipathy to this woman that seems disproportionate to the amount of time that he indicates that he's been working with her.
> 
> ...



cesare you didn't get a fucking response because I didn't have her fucking contract to hand, and wanted to look at my fucking myself okay. 

She's on a six month contract that expires in three weeks. 

Happy fucking now?

As to the defense part?



> You total fucking prick. You utter cock. You arrogant piece of shit.
> 
> What are you Hitler?
> 
> Kill yourself.



Just three fucking responses from page one of this thread, you'll pardon me if I'm a tad fucking defensive. Okay? You get that torrent of abuse on page 1 of your thread and see if you like it.


----------



## muckypup (Feb 13, 2008)

This thread is full of ideological nutters


----------



## the button (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> You get that torrent of abuse on page 1 of your thread and see if you like it.



Stop being an arsehole boss then. Simple.


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

cesare said:


> Hey hey
> 
> Better they're there where you can see em, like. Anyway, chances are that 8den will be on the receiving end of some of this type of crap at some point - doesn't help the lass in question now though.



Yeah I wonder why I'm on the defensive, hur hur bet it happens to him someday. 

Yeah I've lost my job before, and it sucked, company downsized 2 dozen employees three weeks before christmas three years ago, literally told to clear out my desk, and out the door, because they could pay the work experience trainee a third of my salary, after I'd spent six months showing her the ropes. 

This woman on the other had has shredded her credit with every other employee in the place, I tried to work with her for a month, found her unpleasant lazy and rude, but gee it's my fucking fault she like that.


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> cesare you didn't get a fucking response because I didn't have her fucking contract to hand, and wanted to look at my fucking myself okay.
> 
> She's on a six month contract that expires in three weeks.
> 
> ...



Fantastic. Instead of explaining yourself earlier - you now choose to (belatedly) respond to me in a sweary mary fashion somehow making it seem like my fault that I even asked the question.

You'll go far.


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

newbie said:


> It may not be her first time, but is it yours?  producing the show, knowing the buck stops with you??
> 
> From here it looks like you're getting hysterical in February  on a project that isn't due to air until November.  She's experienced and smart, maybe she's just watching your headless chicken act and is waiting for you to burn out before getting down to the hard work with your replacement.



Wish it was that simple, this isn't something ordinary, it's massive and its a long fucking slog, in fact I suspect she's planning to piss off before the thing ends and leave me hanging in a few months time, even if she does stay.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> to look at my fucking myself okay.
> .
> 
> Happy fucking now?
> ...



You don't know how to use 'fucking' in common speech.

Yep; a manager fer sure.


----------



## 8den (Feb 13, 2008)

cesare said:


> Fantastic. Instead of explaining yourself earlier - you now choose to (belatedly) respond to me in a sweary mary fashion somehow making it seem like my fault that I even asked the question.
> 
> You'll go far.



I am fucking working y'know, poking me every page isn't going to get the answer out me faster. I thought I said I was looking into it five or six pages back.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> Yeah I wonder why I'm on the defensive, hur hur bet it happens to him someday.
> 
> Yeah I've lost my job before, and it sucked, company downsized 2 dozen employees three weeks before christmas three years ago, literally told to clear out my desk, and out the door, because they could pay the work experience trainee a third of my salary, after I'd spent six months showing her the ropes.
> 
> This woman on the other had has shredded her credit with every other employee in the place, I tried to work with her for a month, found her unpleasant lazy and rude, but gee it's my fucking fault she like that.



Well, why didn't you just fire her?

Why the need to tell U75 about it?


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

Erm... Why fire her if she has 3 weeks on her contract? She'll be out of there soon, no contract renewal...


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> Yeah I wonder why I'm on the defensive, hur hur bet it happens to him someday.
> 
> Yeah I've lost my job before, and it sucked, company downsized 2 dozen employees three weeks before christmas three years ago, literally told to clear out my desk, and out the door, because they could pay the work experience trainee a third of my salary, after I'd spent six months showing her the ropes.
> 
> This woman on the other had has shredded her credit with every other employee in the place, I tried to work with her for a month, found her unpleasant lazy and rude, but gee it's my fucking fault she like that.


ok then cock-end, i manage 4 other people currently and i think you're acting and behaving like a completely self-centred fool. you've made zero attempt to deal with this but instead driven herself and you towards a situation whereby i would hazard a guess that there isn't any other likely outcome than you achieving your goal of sacking her. you haven't given one thought to her, its all been about you basically.

but what then when you've sacked her? what next? for her or you? you sound so hateful and like you're picking faults before they're even there. tbf, you sound like a nightmare to work for. but you know what. the fact that throughout this thread you've pulled rank to prove your point demonstrates what a fucking arsehole you are. twat, cunt, prick, take your pick you dick. that almost rhymes..... told you i'd start swearing


----------



## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> Yeah I wonder why I'm on the defensive, hur hur bet it happens to him someday.
> 
> Yeah I've lost my job before, and it sucked, company downsized 2 dozen employees three weeks before christmas three years ago, literally told to clear out my desk, and out the door, because they could pay the work experience trainee a third of my salary, after I'd spent six months showing her the ropes.
> 
> This woman on the other had has shredded her credit with every other employee in the place, I tried to work with her for a month, found her unpleasant lazy and rude, but gee it's my fucking fault she like that.



You've been tasked with getting shot of this woman in your first management post - and you don't have the skill to do it (setting morality/fairness aside for the moment).

You're being set up by your 'senior' - possibly as some kind of test to show that you can grasp that poisoned chalice of promotion and prove yourself. It's entirely up to you. There's other ways of dealing with this.


----------



## Kanda (Feb 13, 2008)

cesare said:


> You're being set up by your 'senior' - possibly as some kind of test to show that you can grasp that poisoned chalice of promotion and prove yourself. It's entirely up to you. There's other ways of dealing with this.



^^ This probably, learn to see through it.


----------



## Wookey (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> I tried to work with her for a month, found her unpleasant lazy and rude, but gee it's my fucking fault she like that.



You worked with her for a whole month. At least no-one can say you didn't give it your all!

It might not be your _fault_ she is 'lazy and rude' - but it is your _problem_.

How you solve that problem reflects on you.

Solving it by sacking her makes you a certain kind of person.

Solving it by alternative means makes you a certain kind of person.

Which kind of person would you prefer to be?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 13, 2008)

Wookey said:


> Which kind of person would you prefer to be?


A bit of a cunt clearly......


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## the button (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Erm... Why fire her if she has 3 weeks on her contract? She'll be out of there soon, no contract renewal...



Unless, of course, the employer is using temporary contracts to cover permanent posts in the knowledge that that saves them some tiresome faffing about with employment rights. 

You'll notice that I said _some_ tiresome faffing about, not all. And of course  we don't know whether this is this particular employee's first 6 month contract.


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## cesare (Feb 13, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Erm... Why fire her if she has 3 weeks on her contract? She'll be out of there soon, no contract renewal...



Quite.

At odds with the November 2008 timeline that 8den mentioned.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

There are some people that need firing, though.

I recently worked with a person, a temp, who made my blood boil in 20 different ways, from her abrasive personality, to her know it all attitude, to her penchant for ignoring my directions and substituting her own judgement as to what was best. She was on the front line, answering phones, and later I had people call up and say they'd considered not using me anymore, because of her attitude.

If she hadn't been on a finite contract, I'd have shown her the door pronto.

She was 46 years old, had been in the business for years, and all the touchy feely crap in the world wasn't turning this secretarial sow's ear into a silk purse.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

p.s. I knew within two weeks, that she needed to go, big time.


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## fractionMan (Feb 13, 2008)

lol.

As much as I hate some of the people I work with (including middle managers), i can understand that they've basically got the same problems as me.  i.e. shit management that makes their lives and job difficult..


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## DotCommunist (Feb 13, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> This thread truly shows what has happened to U75. Pretty soon there'll be people moaning that their SUV got a ticket for parking on the pavement, or boasting about how they shouted "fuck off" at a skunk-sayer on Coldharbour Lane.


 


It aint what it was when I was first here as a raw 17 yo no. But it does provide a lesson. Constant drug use and partying aint no way to conduct a revolution. If we want serious change we're gonna have to pull some guy fawkes shit


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## Wookey (Feb 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> There are some people that need firing, though.
> 
> I recently worked with a person, a temp, who made my blood boil in 20 different ways, from her abrasive personality, to her know it all attitude, to her penchant for ignoring my directions and substituting her own judgement as to what was best. She was on the front line, answering phones, and later I had people call up and say they'd considered not using me anymore, because of her attitude.
> 
> ...



I have little doubt that if I asked you for a item-by-item breakdown of the reasons behind why she was so potentially sackable, you could provide that.

Conversely, 8den has been less than convincing, imo, about why he should sack this person, despite having more than one attempt at explaining. She's rude (well, so is he on this thread, I can only guess he might be in real life when challenged), she's uncommunicative (so is he on this thread, witholding points that might better enable us to help him) and she's obnoxious (and yes, 8den has managed that too, after being provoked).

None of these are necessarily gross misconduct offences in the media industry, unlike front line customer service. 

Also, without wishing to be too uncharitable, none of us know if her rudeness, uncommunicativeness and obnoxiousness are a _result_ of the way she's been managed, or the _cause_ - we only have 8den's version of events.

Is 8den a calm, considered, thoughtful, self-critical, open-minded, humanistic, co-operative person, I ask myself?

Well, let's look at the thread here, and have a think.

If this woman at 8den's work really deserved sacking from her job, wouldn't it be easy to see why? Shouldn't it be easy for 8den to explain why?

Why do I get the feeling 8den is just giving up on someone he can't manage?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

Wookey said:


> I have little doubt that if I asked you for a item-by-item breakdown of the reasons behind why she was so potentially sackable, you could provide that.:



One diff is, that I didn't hire her. Had I been in on that process, she never would have stepped through the door.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> p.s. I knew within two weeks, that she needed to go, big time.


we've known the same about you JC2, when you taking the hint?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> we've known the same about you JC2, when you taking the hint?



You're not paying me; and your opinion is worth zip......


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> But I didn't fecking hire her!



Wasn't talking about you, was replying to Filter.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

ChrisFilter said:


> Regardless of blame for the hiring, the problem stil needs to be dealt with, regardless of how much a cunt you think you are.


Gosh, but you're quick on the uptake, aren't you?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You're not paying me; and your opinion is worth zip......


my opinion is worth zip? so you've woken up wanting a row is it? so what's you're view on this beyond simplistic trite statements then? if you please?


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

8den said:


> I'm sorry I don't have time to fix her problem. I need someone who can do the job competently now. This is not a job I can hire anyone into, its going to take weeks to train someone up.


So what you're saying is that if you *had* bothered to find the time to "fix her problem", you wouldn't be on here pissing and moaning about how it'll "take weeks to train someone up", right?


> She spent three hours last week (during work hours and in front of me) flirting with our graphics junior to get him to design her business card for her. She's off at a festival at the moment, slipping that card around along with her showreel, both of which describe her as someone three ranks above her current position.


The media, of course, are legendary for the degree to which they do not bullshit and blag, aren't they?  


> Nothing wrong with that, if she feels she is ready to step up to that level so be it, she doesn't get to spend her time waiting for a director to call, doing mediocre work for me clock watching.


You employ her to clock-watch?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> my opinion is worth zip? so you've woken up wanting a row is it? so what's you're view on this beyond simplistic trite statements then? if you please?



Untwist your knickers. You make a joking [I think] comment about sussing my worth in two weeks. So I reply about your opinion being worth zip.

Chill.


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## fractionMan (Feb 13, 2008)

I might fire someone tomorrow to relieve the boredom.


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## Wookey (Feb 13, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> The media, of course, are legendary for the degree to which they do not bullshit and blag, aren't they?



I have never knowingly bullshitted or blagged in my entire career, your honour.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 13, 2008)

fractionMan said:


> I might fire someone tomorrow to relieve the boredom.



Have them put their names in a hat, and tell them, the name you draw, is fired!


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Untwist your knickers. You make a joking [I think] comment about sussing my worth in two weeks. So I reply about your opinion being worth zip.
> 
> Chill.


i'm like ice JC2  hehehehe 

so, firing people, or women, specifically because they haven't come up to scratch in 3 weeks or so? what do you think? should we be afraid of 'these' people?


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> the essential stupidity of this has always amazed me. Did they not realised that anyone who wore glasses and had half a brain might be inclined to dump sead vision correcting devices when they saw which way the wind was blowing?


Ideology can be even more blind than a spectacle-wearer.


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## phildwyer (Feb 14, 2008)

Anyway, I've reluctantly been forced to conclude that 8den lacks the leadership skills to deliver the excellence, meet the challenges or indeed realize the potential demanded by the modern message-board environment.  I must therefore ask him to clear his desk immediately and return the office stapler on his way out.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 14, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i'm like ice JC2  hehehehe
> 
> so, firing people, or women, specifically because they haven't come up to scratch in 3 weeks or so? what do you think? should we be afraid of 'these' people?



Everything is on a case by case basis, but there are times when the only solution, is firing.

I agree with wookey that if you've put the time and effort into finding a good candidate, then it's probably in everyone's best interests to work at finding some other solution first. But this isn't a perfect world.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 14, 2008)

8den said:


> She's on a six month contract that expires in three weeks.


So why are you whining?

Your thread is entitled "Firing someone", your first sentence is "I have to fire someone who is part of my team", and yet that's balls unless you're the world's most incompetent manager. You don't have to "fire" anyone.
The nature of contracts is that a renewal has to be mutually renegotiated, a fact that you appear unaware of.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 14, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Erm... Why fire her if she has 3 weeks on her contract? She'll be out of there soon, no contract renewal...



Pre-bloody-cisely.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 14, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Pre-bloody-cisely.



He's a power tripper, and he's here to brag about his big firing power.


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## phildwyer (Feb 14, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Pre-bloody-cisely.



You would deny him the sadistic pleasure of firing her himself?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 14, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Everything is on a case by case basis, but there are times when the only solution, is firing.
> 
> I agree with wookey that if you've put the time and effort into finding a good candidate, then it's probably in everyone's best interests to work at finding some other solution first. But this isn't a perfect world.


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## phildwyer (Feb 14, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> He's a power tripper, and he's here to brag about his big firing power.



He should video the firing, then post it up here so we can admire his stern demeanour in the face of her tear-stained pleading.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 14, 2008)

fractionMan said:


> I might fire someone tomorrow to relieve the boredom.



Or you could throw paper aeroplanes or have a wank instead.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 14, 2008)

Wookey said:


> I have never knowingly bullshitted or blagged in my entire career, your honour.


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## cesare (Feb 14, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Anyway, I've reluctantly been forced to conclude that 8den lacks the leadership skills to deliver the excellence, meet the challenges or indeed realize the potential demanded by the modern message-board environment.  I must therefore ask him to clear his desk immediately and return the office stapler on his way out.




He can't The monster bitch queen troll from hell hid the stapler and now he's forced to wend the corridors of potential management fame until such time that he can order another stapler (or ask her to do that task) whilst he puts his management develpment plan into action.


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## the button (Feb 14, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Anyway, I've reluctantly been forced to conclude that 8den lacks the leadership skills to deliver the excellence, meet the challenges or indeed realize the potential demanded by the modern message-board environment.  I must therefore ask him to clear his desk immediately and return the office stapler on his way out.



Sadly lacking in blue-sky thinking, not to mention a distinct lack of pushing the envelope, IMO.


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## phildwyer (Feb 14, 2008)

the button said:


> Sadly lacking in blue-sky thinking, not to mention a distinct lack of pushing the envelope, IMO.



He does show the competitive advantage of thinking outside his box though.


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## the button (Feb 14, 2008)

Does this look pushed to you?






Sadly, no.


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## the button (Feb 14, 2008)

Any evidence of thinking? I rather suspect not.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 14, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> You would deny him the sadistic pleasure of firing her himself?



Most certainly. I'd take sadistic pleasure in doing so.


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## the button (Feb 14, 2008)

He's probably not even asked if anyone saluted when an idea was run up the flagpole. Let alone enquired as to whether we were cooking with gas.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 14, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> He should video the firing, then post it up here so we can admire his stern demeanour in the face of her tear-stained pleading.



Or see her ripping him a new one.


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## kabbes (Feb 14, 2008)

This thread hasn't gone that well for you, really, has it 8den?  Possibly not what you had in mind when you started it.

Still, at least you haven't come across as lazy (_can't be bothered to spend a few weeks in training her_), obnoxious (_"I'm her boss, not her fucking life coach"_), poor at timekeeping (_I have to sack her!  Actually, she's only got three weeks left on her contract!_) or distracted by irrelevancies ("_she was flirting!  With somebody else!_")


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 14, 2008)

kabbes said:


> This thread hasn't gone that well for you, really, has it 8den?  Possibly not what you had in mind when you started it.
> 
> Still, at least you haven't come across as lazy (_can't be bothered to spend a few weeks in training her_), obnoxious (_"I'm her boss, not her fucking life coach"_), poor at timekeeping (_I have to sack her!  Actually, she's only got three weeks left on her contract!_) or distracted by irrelevancies ("_she was flirting!  With somebody else!_")



Beautifully done, sir!


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## Hollis (Feb 17, 2008)

Wookey said:


> So whether you spend a few weeks closely managing her up to scratch, or a few weeks training up her replacement, you're going to have to commit some time to getting your department back on fighting form. Take the first approach, and you risk getting a reputation as a failing manager, you might risk a law suit, and you will certainly feel like shit. The other way might leave you with a new member of staff who starts off well - and then descends to the same behaviour as this one, and for similar reasons. Perhaps by this time your contract will have ended, and it won't matter. But will _you _have improved as a manager? I don't believe sacking someone improves you as a manager, do you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hmm its an interesting point.. I'm always wary that if you're 'on someones back' you get accused of 'micromanaging'. cool.. Then again maybe there's a time and a place..


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