# Real Revolution?



## Dr Delirium (Aug 24, 2004)

Having only recently returned to this site (keyboard heroes waving the mouse of democracy n` all that), it seemed to me nothing had actually changed. I mean we still have the intelligentsia keeping up with our masters` latest plots to accrue power and privilege but that the perfect answer to this is to hold a bookfair in camden   
 I was wondering the other day what is the best way to take out the greedmeisters? As glorious as an armed march against downing street sounds, we have to learn our history lessons and realise that every civil war results in stupid people being coerced into fighting for a cause they know nothing about in order to save the skins of people who couldn`t give a monkeys about them anyway.
 I automatically think protest but surely effective protest requires free media and an actively mobile population. The best example of protesting seen in recent years was of course the million march in london but the results? jack, in between truck drivers ranting about smelly hippies (at the protest in our town we were simply told to go and have a wash instead!  ) and white collar reporters smirking at the scale and concluding.....nothing, any constructive arguements that should have been aired on the news etc. were lost. The best you could do was to watch the debate show on BBC1 before you went to bed   
 So if peaceful protest and armed resistance won`t work what will?
 The strength of the current system lies in the fact many people are so hopelessly deluded by the sham goals/rewards they are prescribed for their existences that they fail to see other perceptions except as attacks to their own reality (probably could be explained better but some things just can`t be put into words), in short so long as ambitions for grandeur are given and reinforced by material reward then loyalty to the system simply creates itself.
 Afterall who wants to be told they`ve been living a lie for the past decade?
 To remove the reward is to remove the loyalty and thus the powerbase.
 I`ll stop for a bit here as i`m sure people will want to add some input


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## jms (Aug 24, 2004)

Ill tell you the reason this country will never have a revolution:

secretly, no one cares about future generations
we'd rather live in opulence while the world crumbles around us


but pay no attention to me, that was irrelevant
not to mention silly


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## Flavour (Aug 24, 2004)

those who would benefit from the overthrow of the current system to do not realise it or care enough about it do anything.


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## mmmSkyscraper (Aug 24, 2004)

Let them Eat Cake?


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## PacificOcean (Aug 24, 2004)

If this country were to have a revolution who would be fighting who?  

I have still to be convinced there are better systems than the one we have now.


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## jusali (Aug 24, 2004)

History has shown, no matter what we do, that the rich and powerful like to rule over the others. Even Communism failed because of that reason.
Simply put what's the fucking point.


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## Idris2002 (Aug 24, 2004)

Your country has already had a revolution. Go down to your video store and rent 'To kill a King'.


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## Dr Delirium (Aug 24, 2004)

The point is that because of the fact you stated people are dying and suffering on a worldwide basis. Surely a life spent trying to somehow remedy this is one better spent than someone who simply ignores this problem.          Someone who instead spends their life satisfying ego without realising that by ignoring the problem they have in fact become part of it.


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## kropotkin (Aug 24, 2004)

So the options are:
1/ Vote in other rulers
2/ Armed replacement of one set of rulers by another
2/ "Protest" to current rulers to change their minds.

So, nothing about doing things ourselves then?

You are playing with smoke and mirrors here. Real power lies iwith those who daily reproduce society- not just commodities but the _relationships_ between human beings- the very structure of power.

Each and every day the actions we perform keep it going, and the rulers administer and profit from it. Changing the structure is what is important, not the group of people profiting from it's operation. 

And just because we are living through a period of relatively low-intensity of the class struggle doesn't mean that we are at the "end of history". The wheel will turn, and the cycle will carry on.


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## Dr Delirium (Aug 24, 2004)

I agree with you, if it were up to me there would be no money and everyone would be of equal standing but the fact is at the moment we need leaders, however we currently only have rulers.
 To simply let this go and continue with procrastination is futile, knowledge is only power if its acted upon surely. 
 You`ve also raised an interesting point, peoples perceptions influence their behaviour yet it is the behaviour of people around them that creates these perceptions in the first place. Random observation


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## Dr Jon (Aug 24, 2004)

Dr Delirium said:
			
		

> I was wondering the other day what is the best way to take out the greedmeisters?


Communication.  Compassion.  Cooperation.
Fear keeps the population divided and _them_ afraid of (and comfortably insulated from) _us_.


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## Dr Delirium (Aug 25, 2004)

Thats what worries me so much about the war on terror, as well as pre-emptive invasion which goes against everything we supposedly stand for we have the fear factor which seems to be rubbing in the salt every day of the week.


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## IntoStella (Aug 25, 2004)

jms said:
			
		

> Ill tell you the reason this country will never have a revolution:
> 
> secretly, no one cares about future generations


It's not such a secret. Fact is, we're still cavepeople, hard wired not to care about abstract future generations. Not a very good survival strategy in the long term, but maybe one day we'll evolve sufficiently to see this. If we're still here then.


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## IntoStella (Aug 25, 2004)

*We have always been at war with Eurasia*




			
				Dr Delirium said:
			
		

> Thats what worries me so much about the war on terror, as well as pre-emptive invasion which goes against everything we supposedly stand for we have the fear factor which seems to be rubbing in the salt every day of the week.


hence the end of Farenheit 911, when Moore quotes Orwell with regard to (paraphrasing) forever being at war and instilling fear of the enemy in the population being the most effective way to suppress unrest at home. This is precisely what is happening. We need an ongoing War on Propaganda to counter the phoney War on Terror.


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## Corax (Aug 25, 2004)

This is going to sound facile, but...

Ever since watching "Ghandi" (see?   ), I've been a big fan of passive civil disobedience.

What if those million people had concluded the march by sitting down outside parliament and refusing to move until, well, I'll leave the demands up to those in the middle.  But that would make the news wouldn't it, and people would come and join, Greenham-esque.


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## kropotkin (Aug 25, 2004)

bloody hell. The tactics advocated by Ghandi weren't enacted in a fucking vaccuum, they were taking place against a very specific backdrop of rioting, killing of soldiers, a battered and wounded imperial power at the end of a gruelling war etc..

And Ghandi wasn't the saint he is remembered as- against workers' strikes, approving of Hitler blah blah


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## Corax (Aug 25, 2004)

Yeh yeh yeh....

I've never got round to looking into the whole area closely to be honest, although it's been on my mental list for years.

I was just impressed with the passive civil disobedience tactics, as portrayed in the film.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 25, 2004)

Most people will rather have food then freedom. If they have most of what they want then they don't want to rock the boat to much in case they loose what little they have got.


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## Jonezy (Aug 25, 2004)

Its all about Eastenders last week when Jim Brannon was chatting to Dot, trying to convince her that a trip to India was a good idea.

"And what about that Ghandi fella, didn't he win an Oscar."

Genius.

Surely the majority of the working class in this country have been integrated into Capitalism enough now to not give a shit about the alternatives? The majority of the population can afford to be consumers and with the pressure to conform rammed down our throats by the mainstream media concerning consumerism, identity, status etc, the masses are lost and their/our narcissistic mindsets couldn't give a fuck about future generations. It infuriates.

I think the "revolution" has to start with the mindsets of the individuals that make our communities. The values that we currently hold onto as a society such as greed, individualism, superficiality etc, need to change and be replace by the values that allow societies to function in a peaceful, effective and fulfilling manner - co-operation, compassion, solidarity, synergy - whatever we choose. So a cultural revolution has to start within our communities, our schools, our families and we need to build a counter-hegemeny to neo-liberal consumption ideology that currently pollutes the water we're all swimming in.

In theory... maybe?

Peace and Justice
Jonezy


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## Corax (Aug 25, 2004)

Jonezy said:
			
		

> Surely the majority of the working class in this country have been integrated into Capitalism enough now to not give a shit about the alternatives? The majority of the population can afford to be consumers and with the pressure to conform rammed down our throats by the mainstream media concerning consumerism, identity, status etc, the masses are lost and their/our narcissistic mindsets couldn't give a fuck about future generations. It infuriates.



The tried and trusted tactic of distracting people with shiny things whilst shitting on them.

"Forget about the smell!  Look at the shiny thing!  LOOK AT IT!"


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## Jonezy (Aug 26, 2004)

So is a revolution necessary or will democracy evolve to a just conclusion?

I guess Capitalism can never technically be just.

Can it?


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## yozz (Aug 26, 2004)

Jonezy said:
			
		

> So is a revolution necessary or will democracy evolve to a just conclusion?
> 
> I guess Capitalism can never technically be just.
> 
> Can it?



Yes a revolution is necessary to move beyond representative democracy.  

The way forward? Watch what the state is attacking then increase the resistance to their attacks.

Capitalism is only a couple of hundred years old. In terms of our development as human beings it's nothing more than a blip.


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## Diamond (Aug 26, 2004)

yozz said:
			
		

> Yes a revolution is necessary to move beyond representative democracy.
> 
> The way forward? Watch what the state is attacking then increase the resistance to their attacks.
> 
> Capitalism is only a couple of hundred years old. In terms of our development as human beings it's nothing more than a blip.



I just don´t understand this mentality at all. Aside from the whole idea of a revolution with no stated aim apart from destroying "representative democracy" why does it make sense to attack anything that the "state" does.

How can you divorce yourself from the "state" and "Capitalism" so purely when you directly benefit from their operations? Beyond that what is the "state"?

Aren´t you just trying to create the idea of some sort of faceless lurching evil juggernaut so that you can feel justified in struggling against something, anything?

The left is so easily caricatured and ridiculed because it is full of people desperately trying to feel self-righteous about something, desperately trying to interprate the wider world in black and white terms, desperately trying to feel justified by _someone_ (God?) for doing _something_ to make their ethereal sense of society better.

There´s no sense of balance in these attractively romantic decrees for a revolution that will usher in a new golden age. There´s no sense that there´s a very large proportion of the world, an implacable, immovable group who are happy with their IKEA funiture. A group who are indirectly backed up by an even larger population who don´t want to be pulled up out of their miserable poverty onto a plateau of high-minded social equality. They´d far rather keep their prejudices, their sense of self and belonging, but what they would appreciate is a nice two up, two down, a regular job and a reliable car.

The current system, call it what you will, is difficult to attack because it already satisfies so many and perversely offers genuine hope to those who are dissatisfied. It´s a best fit solution and fundamentally that´s all we can achieve. Any attempt to rectify perceived wrongs needs to be set in its proper _global_ context with a full evaluation of the economic and geo-political ramifications, and only then can "progress" of any sort be made and even when it is made it will not be some fighting in the streets heroic venture, it will be a slow movement towards some sort of consensus about the best way to satisfy _everyone_, not just the poor or the radical or the downtrodden. Are you going to genuinely let humanism or facile radicalism rule how you think about the world?

What jms identifies in the second post is just as true for his "opulence" as it is for our "equality". People want what they want in their own lifetime and if faced with the reality that they cannot achieve it in that timespan, they will simply ignore it and thrust forward simplifying further and further until it looks like they have something worthwhile and just on the drawing board when in fact it will just be a set of over-simplisitic and prejudical premises upon which rests a shiny and efficient ideology. It´s society, it´s the human condition and it´s what we´re condemned to.


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## Corax (Aug 26, 2004)

One thing forgotten:  The issues of poverty, racism, drugs, crime, civil rights etc are intertwined and incredibly complex.

If yozz was to post a full justification he'd need his own website.


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## Dr Delirium (Aug 26, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> I just don´t understand this mentality at all. Aside from the whole idea of a revolution with no stated aim apart from destroying "representative democracy" why does it make sense to attack anything that the "state" does.
> 
> How can you divorce yourself from the "state" and "Capitalism" so purely when you directly benefit from their operations? Beyond that what is the "state"



 What we need to aim to destroy is the interlinking of capitalism and democracy, politics and economics. This is because it leads the people with the power into a choice between greed and altruism. Of course we benefit from some government actions and why should we be made guilty for doing so? is it not the nation states job to look after its people, this is afterall what this debate is about, the fact that they don`t!
 The "state" is a hierarchy of individuals with a collection of different powers/responsibilities whose job it is to organise/advance society and to look after the needs of its citizens both materially and morally. Aren`t they doing a grand job!   




			
				Diamond said:
			
		

> Aren´t you just trying to create the idea of some sort of faceless lurching evil juggernaut so that you can feel justified in struggling against something, anything?
> 
> The left is so easily caricatured and ridiculed because it is full of people desperately trying to feel self-righteous about something, desperately trying to interprate the wider world in black and white terms, desperately trying to feel justified by _someone_ (God?) for doing _something_ to make their ethereal sense of society better.


 
 Yes! You`ve hit the nail on the head there, the fact that the left wants to see an improving society for all is simply a severe case of narsicism, you see we feel so fed up with ourselves that we find it hard to devote our life to "normal" pleasures like greed and powermongering, instead we embark on self-righteous campaigns which numb the everpresent pain we all feel deep down   PLEASE! Are you really trying to say that anyone with a dissenting voice against plastic culture is in fact on some psychopathic quest because they have nothing better to live for   




			
				Diamond said:
			
		

> There´s no sense of balance in these attractively romantic decrees for a revolution that will usher in a new golden age. There´s no sense that there´s a very large proportion of the world, an implacable, immovable group who are happy with their IKEA funiture. A group who are indirectly backed up by an even larger population who don´t want to be pulled up out of their miserable poverty onto a plateau of high-minded social equality. They´d far rather keep their prejudices, their sense of self and belonging, but what they would appreciate is a nice two up, two down, a regular job and a reliable car.



 Yes they`re the people who don`t have the imagination to see past the reality in front of them, they`re the sheep in fact one could say they`re the reason why its always been like this in the first place.




			
				Diamond said:
			
		

> The current system, call it what you will, is difficult to attack because it already satisfies so many and perversely offers genuine hope to those who are dissatisfied. It´s a best fit solution and fundamentally that´s all we can achieve. Any attempt to rectify perceived wrongs needs to be set in its proper _global_ context with a full evaluation of the economic and geo-political ramifications, and only then can "progress" of any sort be made and even when it is made it will not be some fighting in the streets heroic venture, it will be a slow movement towards some sort of consensus about the best way to satisfy _everyone_, not just the poor or the radical or the downtrodden. Are you going to genuinely let humanism or facile radicalism rule how you think about the world?



 The current system satisfies no one, afterall do you know anyone who has enough money already? Instead of offering hope it offers false promises of lottery wins and sports cars to people who during the course of their lives will never see the inside of a hilton. Don`t lecture people on global context, we only have to look at people like the carlyle group and events in places like argentina to see major humanitarian fuckup in the name of money. People seem to think the left are actually opposed to people having a nicer car than other people and pathetic gestures like that. NO, in fact i`m slightly more bothered about much of the worlds population being on less than a dollar a day and the billion people without clean drinking water. Damn right im going to let humanism rule my view of the world, i am after all human.




			
				Diamond said:
			
		

> What jms identifies in the second post is just as true for his "opulence" as it is for our "equality". People want what they want in their own lifetime and if faced with the reality that they cannot achieve it in that timespan, they will simply ignore it and thrust forward simplifying further and further until it looks like they have something worthwhile and just on the drawing board when in fact it will just be a set of over-simplisitic and prejudical premises upon which rests a shiny and efficient ideology. It´s society, it´s the human condition and it´s what we´re condemned to.



 Thats crap, yes people set goals for their lives but these goals are based on the perceptions they`ve been handed from childhood. Currently the goals for life are a big house/nice car/holidays. This often comes at the expense of family, friends/social life and your general humanity.
 This is as much a spiritual war as a material one (am I romantic for describing it as a war, maybe slight jostle would be better?), i don`t understand how people can`t see the ruling class as evil. They make power and possessions from other peoples sufferings (think:global context).
 The human condition is never realising just what we are, and why we`re actually here. instead we act like confused animals simply depending upon other people to tell us how to live our life and what we need to acquire in order to succeed. Its no suprise then that systems that have flourished are ones in which the powerful convince the weak that the meaning of life are the material fruits of labour, labour which in turn makes the powerful more powerful.


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## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

Top posts by Krop and Diamond.

Hippy shit the rest of ya I say: hippy shit!


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## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

Dr Delirium said:
			
		

> instead we embark on self-righteous campaigns which numb the everpresent pain we all feel deep down   PLEASE! Are you really trying to say that anyone with a dissenting voice against plastic culture is in fact on some psychopathic quest because they have nothing better to live for





> s they`re the people who don`t have the imagination to see past the reality in front of them, they`re the sheep in fact one could say they`re the reason why its always been like this in the first place.



To extend Diamond's line of thought a bit more, this is a brilliant example of leftist (and I use the term loosely) self-aggrandizement. It must be really fucking satisfying to look at those who don't 'see past the reality in front of them' - i.e. those who disagree with Dr Delirium's neo-Platonic bollocks - as sheep rather than perhaps considering just for a second that the world-views of the 'sheep' have developed with just as much validity and cause as the mystical truth only someone as intelligent and spiritually advanced as he can be in the possession of.


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## kyser_soze (Aug 26, 2004)

nosos said:
			
		

> To extend Diamond's line of thought a bit more, this is a brilliant example of leftist (and I use the term loosely) self-aggrandizement. It must be really fucking satisfying to look at those who don't 'see past the reality in front of them' - i.e. those who disagree with Dr Delirium's neo-Platonic bollocks - as sheep rather than perhaps considering just for a second that the world-views of the 'sheep' have developed with just as much validity and cause as the mystical truth only someone as intelligent and spiritually advanced as he can be in the possession of.



But just like people who follow God, Allah, Buddah, Krishna or a shiny rock, they have been given divine understanding not availed to the non-believer...

Stella - Gateau Fabulous!


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## Dr Delirium (Aug 26, 2004)

what a crock of crap. Its blatantly obvious they`re sheep! But if you`d actually read the post instead of nitpicking for any kind of moral weakness you can get on your high horses about, you`d have read that i blamed this on the perceptions these people had been encouraged to foster since childhood. Not in any way did i say they were inferior which is what the religion comment inferred.
 If i`m just some jumped up neo-hippy who daddy never took to the fair   maybe you should try actually responding to my post with some kind of decent counter arguement. Well other than "you think your better than everyone else"


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## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

Or alternatively you could try to counter my claim rather than vainly trying to assert that there's no value judgement in calling people 'sheep' before going on to describe how innocent, naive and unchallenged these people are ...


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## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

You think you know something important they don't know and you want to 'spread the word'. Join the club, matey: everyone thinks they're right and if other people just agreed with them everything would be ok and they wouldn't be made to feel bad by their inability to make any sort of lasting mark on the world. Life would have meaning and everything would be sun shine and lollypops. Now get down off ya high-horse and stop making yourself look like a dick.


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## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

Dr Delirium said:
			
		

> The strength of the current system lies in the fact many people are so hopelessly deluded by the sham goals/rewards they are prescribed for their existences that they fail to see other perceptions except as attacks to their own reality (probably could be explained better but some things just can`t be put into words), in short so long as ambitions for grandeur are given and reinforced by material reward then loyalty to the system simply creates itself.



Have you risen entirely beyond this oh-so-human vice? How easy was it? Can I rise beyond it too? If I repeat to myself enough times will I be s-p-i-r-i-t-u-a-l too!?


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## Dr Delirium (Aug 26, 2004)

People often mock what they don`t understand. I`ve made myself look like a dick to who? some faceless arguementative know-it-all on the internet   
  If people all follow the same ideas/philosophy simply because they`ve been told to whats wrong with calling them sheep? What happened to glorious global context. Still its ok to mock me for having some kind of compassion, sorry i mean thinking i`m everyones superior   
 Yeah i do believe the world would be a better place if people thought like me, like you said we all do its called the courage of your convictions. Fact is what am i so against that you love so much?
 Maybe you wholeheartedly agree with the wealth divide, profit from widescale murder (war), consumer society, erosion of moral values and the world generally going down the shitpan. Maybe i could hear your opinion on such issues?


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## kyser_soze (Aug 26, 2004)

Hey I don't argue moral weakness.

That whole get out of 'you`d have read that i blamed this on the perceptions these people had been encouraged to foster since childhood.'...yeah, but you didn't and what makes you different from everyone else - you question. They don't.

And the religious stuff has nothing to do with inferiority - you can't get away from it sounding smug, and calling people sheep - tarring millions with the brush of never thinking beyond the herd/flock - is not exactly a term of endearment of respect in any place I've ever heard it, except when Jesus was talking about his flock...of sheep...following him around...



> erosion of moral values



Who's moral values? Yours? Xtianities? Or some other set of arbitrarily defined modes of bahviour that have as much to do with social control as the shiny things stopping people noticing the shit.


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## yozz (Aug 26, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> I just don´t understand this mentality at all. Aside from the whole idea of a revolution with no stated aim apart from destroying "representative democracy" why does it make sense to attack anything that the "state" does.



I didn't say to destroy I said to move beyond. If you bother to read what I'm actually saying rather than what you think I am you might realise that moving beyond assumes something has become redundant. Representative democracy is rapidly becoming redundant in this country. Unless there is a social revolution in how people view government it will become even less representative and more dictatorial. 

I said resist what the state attacks. At the moment there are sustained attacks on our civil liberties. Protest is being outlawed while our privacy is being removed via a national biometric database and the increase in electronic surveillance. This shows the areas that those in power assume are weaknesses. If everything was fine and dandy they wouldn't be attacking our civil liberties in these ways. It suggests to me that they are looking ahead to a time when they will need to have an increasingly restless population under total surveillance. They don't seem as confident in their rule as you do. Maybe it's something to do with the depletion of oil reserves, the very foundation on which industrial capitalism has been built. 




> How can you divorce yourself from the "state" and "Capitalism" so purely when you directly benefit from their operations? Beyond that what is the "state"?



The state is an organisation of people who hold supreme power and a monopoly on force and coercion. Think about who meets those criteria and you'll have your definition of the "state".




> Aren´t you just trying to create the idea of some sort of faceless lurching evil juggernaut so that you can feel justified in struggling against something, anything?



I don't need to create it when it already exists. Again use the criteria above and you'll find your "faceless lurching evil juggernaut". Analyse each of the structures and you'll find who are in the positions of power. Hey presto it's no longer faceless!




> The left is so easily caricatured and ridiculed because it is full of people desperately trying to feel self-righteous about something, desperately trying to interprate the wider world in black and white terms, desperately trying to feel justified by _someone_ (God?) for doing _something_ to make their ethereal sense of society better.



As opposed to the walking dead like yourself who are at ease in your predetermined role of good prole sleepwalking through life.




> There´s no sense of balance in these attractively romantic decrees for a revolution that will usher in a new golden age. There´s no sense that there´s a very large proportion of the world, an implacable, immovable group who are happy with their IKEA funiture. A group who are indirectly backed up by an even larger population who don´t want to be pulled up out of their miserable poverty onto a plateau of high-minded social equality. They´d far rather keep their prejudices, their sense of self and belonging, but what they would appreciate is a nice two up, two down, a regular job and a reliable car.



Next time you're walking down the street lift your head up and have a look at everyone else who is walking with their eyes on the ground. If you make eye contact really look into those eyes. Do you see a sense of peace and contentment, a sense of belonging?




> The current system, call it what you will, is difficult to attack because it already satisfies so many and perversely offers genuine hope to those who are dissatisfied. It´s a best fit solution and fundamentally that´s all we can achieve. Any attempt to rectify perceived wrongs needs to be set in its proper _global_ context with a full evaluation of the economic and geo-political ramifications, and only then can "progress" of any sort be made and even when it is made it will not be some fighting in the streets heroic venture, it will be a slow movement towards some sort of consensus about the best way to satisfy _everyone_, not just the poor or the radical or the downtrodden. Are you going to genuinely let humanism or facile radicalism rule how you think about the world?



A best fit solution? Bollocks my friend!

Capitalism lurches from one crisis to another, from one war to another while destroying our global resources. It profits a tiny minority while the majority depending on their financial usefulness are condemned to a life of relative servitude. You consider this to be all we can achieve?


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## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

> If people all follow the same ideas/philosophy simply because they`ve been told to whats wrong with calling them sheep? What happened to glorious global context. Still its ok to mock me for having some kind of compassion, sorry i mean thinking i`m everyones superior
> Yeah i do believe the world would be a better place if people thought like me, like you said we all do its called the courage of your convictions. Fact is what am i so against that you love so much?
> Maybe you wholeheartedly agree with the wealth divide, profit from widescale murder (war), consumer society, erosion of moral values and the world generally going down the shitpan. Maybe i could hear your opinion on such issues?



I'm blatantly going to get into a technical argument about what constitutes an ad hominem here but I'll do it anyway: what do you do about these things, Dr D? These things you presume I support because I disagree with you. Have a think about that presumption, matey: it's pretty indicative of everything else about your views on this thread ...


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## pbman (Aug 26, 2004)

Dr Delirium said:
			
		

> Having only recently returned to this site (keyboard heroes waving the mouse of democracy n` all that), it seemed to me nothing had actually changed. I mean we still have the intelligentsia keeping up with our masters` latest plots to accrue power and privilege but that the perfect answer to this is to hold a bookfair in camden
> I was wondering the other day what is the best way to take out the greedmeisters? As glorious as an armed march against downing street sounds, we have to learn our history lessons and realise that every civil war results in stupid people being coerced into fighting for a cause they know nothing about in order to save the skins of people who couldn`t give a monkeys about them anyway.
> I automatically think protest but surely effective protest requires free media and an actively mobile population. The best example of protesting seen in recent years was of course the million march in london but the results? jack, in between truck drivers ranting about smelly hippies (at the protest in our town we were simply told to go and have a wash instead!  ) and white collar reporters smirking at the scale and concluding.....nothing, any constructive arguements that should have been aired on the news etc. were lost. The best you could do was to watch the debate show on BBC1 before you went to bed
> So if peaceful protest and armed resistance won`t work what will?
> ...



Just bring it on, we will be glad to shoot you.

We have a hundred million gun onwers with 300 million guns plus the largest army in the world.

That should do it.


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## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)




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## FreddyB (Aug 26, 2004)

pbman said:
			
		

> Just bring it on, we will be glad to shoot you.
> 
> We have a hundred million gun onwers with 300 million guns plus the largest army in the world.




And a man in charge with the same IQ as a glass of water. Happy day.


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## pbman (Aug 26, 2004)

FreddyB said:
			
		

> And a man in charge with the same IQ as a glass of water. Happy day.



Dissinformation.

Glad to see it works.

His SATs were quite respectable.


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## pbman (Aug 26, 2004)

nosos said:
			
		

>



I do belive he hasn't a clue what he's up against.


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## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

He's not going for your guns, Peebs: he's going for your very *soul* ...


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## pbman (Aug 26, 2004)

nosos said:
			
		

> He's not going for your guns, Peebs: he's going for your very *soul* ...



It doesn't matter, i need the target practice.


----------



## FreddyB (Aug 26, 2004)

nosos said:
			
		

> You think you know something important they don't know and you want to 'spread the word'. Join the club, matey: everyone thinks they're right and if other people just agreed with them everything would be ok and they wouldn't be made to feel bad by their inability to make any sort of lasting mark on the world. Life would have meaning and everything would be sun shine and lollypops. Now get down off ya high-horse and stop making yourself look like a dick.




All men are ordinary, the extraordiany ones realise it.


----------



## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

They're the ones who give in to the worst excesses of human pride and egocentricity ...


----------



## pbman (Aug 26, 2004)

Dr Delirium said:
			
		

> People often mock what they don`t understand. I`ve made myself look like a dick to who? some faceless arguementative know-it-all on the internet
> If people all follow the same ideas/philosophy simply because they`ve been told to whats wrong with calling them sheep? What happened to glorious global context. Still its ok to mock me for having some kind of compassion, sorry i mean thinking i`m everyones superior
> Yeah i do believe the world would be a better place if people thought like me, like you said we all do its called the courage of your convictions. Fact is what am i so against that you love so much?
> Maybe you wholeheartedly agree with the wealth divide, profit from widescale murder (war), consumer society, erosion of moral values and the world generally going down the shitpan. Maybe i could hear your opinion on such issues?



So whats your position on gun control anyways?

Do you support shall issue carry laws?

Do you know what they are?


----------



## FreddyB (Aug 26, 2004)

nosos said:
			
		

> They're the ones who give in to the worst excesses of human pride and egocentricity ...



What of the rest, mediocrity?


----------



## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

Acceptance of their situation? Pretension can bring great rewards after all ...


----------



## FreddyB (Aug 26, 2004)

nosos said:
			
		

> everyone thinks they're right and if other people just agreed with them everything would be ok and they wouldn't be made to feel bad by their inability to make any sort of lasting mark on the world.



Blind acceptance?


----------



## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

Occasionally reading Heat and dreaming dreamer's dreams ...


----------



## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

We are the Music-Makers

We are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams.
World-losers and world-forsakers,
Upon whom the pale moon gleams;
Yet we are the movers and shakers,
Of the world forever, it seems.

With wonderful deathless ditties
We build up the world's great cities,
And out of a fabulous story
We fashion an empire's glory:
One man with a dream, at pleasure,
Shall go forth and conquer a crown;
And three with a new song's measure
Can trample an empire down.

We, in the ages lying
In the buried past of the earth,
Built Nineveh with our sighing,
And Babel itself with our mirth;
And o'erthrew them with prophesying
To the old of the new world's worth;
For each age is a dream that is dying,
Or one that is coming to birth.

-- Arthur O'Shaughnessy


----------



## FreddyB (Aug 26, 2004)

build me a path from cradle to grave eh?


----------



## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

Well it would stop us from getting lost along the way ...


----------



## FreddyB (Aug 26, 2004)

or tripped over and thrown in ditches with nothing more than the clothes we wear, if we're fortunate


----------



## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

Is that not what we deserve!? For we are sinners! Sinners I say!!!!


----------



## FreddyB (Aug 26, 2004)

no we just all think we're right and if only everyone would listen and follow everything would be ok, ever decreasing circles


----------



## nosos (Aug 26, 2004)

Wouldn't killing them be a more efficient way of producing those ever-decreasing circles?


----------



## FreddyB (Aug 26, 2004)

we are them


----------



## yozz (Aug 26, 2004)

pbman said:
			
		

> Just bring it on, we will be glad to shoot you.
> 
> We have a hundred million gun onwers with 300 million guns plus the largest army in the world.
> 
> That should do it.



A hundred million gun owners who don't all think like you pbman. And an army that is tied up in the Middle East fighting a losing battle.


----------



## pbman (Aug 26, 2004)

yozz said:
			
		

> A hundred million gun owners who don't all think like you pbman. And an army that is tied up in the Middle East fighting a losing battle.



Your right, i'm extreamly moderat when it comes to these kinds of things.

And most of our army is still here.

Try again.

Adn expalin to me while your at it, what give a small number of people the right to have a revolution.

Why don't you call it what it really is a coup, by a small nuber of people.

You guys don't liek it when others do such thing, so please explain.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 26, 2004)

Dr. Delirium, yozz, this is ridiculous, you´re just going in circles trying to set up more things to rail against by assuming my views on subjects that you can polemicise away on to your heart´s content.

Forinstance yozz you state, and I quote:

"The state is an organisation of people who hold supreme power and a monopoly on force and coercion. Think about who meets those criteria and you'll have _your_ definition of the "state". "

You see I think you´ll find that if I follow that logic, I´ll have _your_ idea of the state, not _mine_. But then I forgot that you´re trying to lecture people.

You´re not trying to communicate or debate or even develop your ideas with other people. You don´t want to be challenged or exposed as the evangelical preacher that you are. And when you are exposed or challenged you do exactly what most preachers would do in that situation, cry heretic or in your words "walking dead like yourself".

I probably agree with your criticisms of the development of a police state in Britain and some of your extremely facile opinions on the distribution of wealth and the machinations of the economy, but I refuse to get in an argument with you about your chosen rants when in fact the thread title and subject covers something totally different; your perceived need for some sort of millenarian revolution that will usher in a hybrid nostalgic-garden of eden-happy place.

I don´t really know where to start actually. Your arrogance and obnoxious nature shines through as you try and portray yourself as some sort of messianic figure, as kyser has already alluded to. So much of your thinking resembles some inflexible dogmatic religion that it´s just, laughable. You´re supposed to be progressives, but you won´t even consider the idea that you might be wrong on anything.

In my opinion a lot of social and economic policy as well as ideological politics is about balancing out the opposing forces in society. Once you understand that and comprehend the importance of maintaining some sort of balance in whatever "progress" you intend to make, then you´ll be one step closer to sounding reasonable and plausible. Until that point in time you´re condemned to repeat the petty infighting, fractured thinking and patronising generalisations that characterises so many simplistic ideologies on the left.

Dr. Delirium. You talk about Argentina c.2002 when it all went tits up for them. If you want to debate this and find out some more then I suggest you withdraw from your patronising and offensive position of superiority. I was living there at the time so consider myself well acquainted with their particular crisis and am happy to answer any of your more reasonable questions. But something makes me think that you´ll press on with your hyperbolic rubbish. How´s the view up there from your ivory tower anyway?


----------



## yozz (Aug 27, 2004)

pbman said:
			
		

> Your right, i'm extreamly moderat when it comes to these kinds of things.
> 
> And most of our army is still here.
> 
> Try again.



Well some of your army are being removed from western europe to go to 'terrust blackspots' like Iraq. That sort of increases their likelihood of coming home to the U S A in a bodybag. 



> Adn expalin to me while your at it, what give a small number of people the right to have a revolution.
> 
> Why don't you call it what it really is a coup, by a small nuber of people.



Would that be like the American coup that led to the Americun Bill Of Rits?


----------



## yozz (Aug 27, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> Dr. Delirium, yozz, this is ridiculous, you´re just going in circles trying to set up more things to rail against by assuming my views on subjects that you can polemicise away on to your heart´s content.
> 
> Forinstance yozz you state, and I quote:
> 
> ...




I haven't assumed your views at all. You made assumptions about mine that you can't back up. Fair enough but don't accuse me of lecturing after your lofty know it all approach to my posts and what you imagined to believe their points.





> You´re not trying to communicate or debate or even develop your ideas with other people. You don´t want to be challenged or exposed as the evangelical preacher that you are. And when you are exposed or challenged you do exactly what most preachers would do in that situation, cry heretic or in your words "walking dead like yourself".




So "walking dead" hit a nerve then. Good, because that's what you're advocating when you start criticising people who are awake and aware of what's going on. From where I'm standing you're more dead than alive lad!  





> I probably agree with your criticisms of the development of a police state in Britain and some of your extremely facile opinions on the distribution of wealth and the machinations of the economy, but I refuse to get in an argument with you about your chosen rants when in fact the thread title and subject covers something totally different; your perceived need for some sort of millenarian revolution that will usher in a hybrid nostalgic-garden of eden-happy place.
> 
> 
> I don´t really know where to start actually. Your arrogance and obnoxious nature shines through as you try and portray yourself as some sort of messianic figure, as kyser has already alluded to. So much of your thinking resembles some inflexible dogmatic religion that it´s just, laughable. You´re supposed to be progressives, but you won´t even consider the idea that you might be wrong on anything.
> ...




yeah yeah, blah blah blah. 

Stop acting like a nobhead and talk to me. I've taken the time and effort to contribute to this thread in the hope we can get beyond your ego. Want to try it?


----------



## pbman (Aug 27, 2004)

yozz said:
			
		

> Well some of your army are being removed from western europe to go to 'terrust blackspots' like Iraq. That sort of increases their likelihood of coming home to the U S A in a bodybag.
> 
> 
> 
> Would that be like the American coup that led to the Americun Bill Of Rits?



Lat i head their moving to texas.

You do know how big our army is don't you?

WE had a majority then,and you guys were taxing us,and not letting us have representation in your legislature.

Not a smart move in hindsite was it?


----------



## PapaG Ahmurikin (Aug 27, 2004)

pbman.......let the sheeple alone and go practice on some "Blue Helmets". it is a waste to discuss Revolution with subjects of the Crown.


----------



## pbman (Aug 27, 2004)

PapaG Ahmurikin said:
			
		

> pbman.......let the sheeple alone and go practice on some "Blue Helmets". it is a waste to discuss Revolution with subjects of the Crown.




Well so many of these anarcists and revolutionares also love gun control, it just so damn fun, to disscuse the logic of that one.


----------



## Corax (Aug 27, 2004)

PapaG Ahmurikin said:
			
		

> pbman.......let the sheeple alone and go practice on some "Blue Helmets". it is a waste to discuss Revolution with subjects of the Crown.



Subjects of the Crown?  Revolution?  No, that would never happen would it?

How exactly did your country come about again?


----------



## kropotkin (Aug 27, 2004)

good posts yozz and nos.

Diamond: you do talk some crap. Your lame attempts to gain credibility for your views by appearing reasonable and centrist, with your middle-englander "common sense" and posts devoid of content but dripping with arrogant denunciations is really grating.

Address the points made to you.


----------



## Dr Delirium (Aug 27, 2004)

Damn you beat me to the middle england slur!   And if you lived in argentina when it was going tits up then i wouldn`t even have to tell you how globalisation and predatory privitisation are leading to countless deaths so men already living in the hamptons can add a few digits to their bank balance. Still this is capitalism right the fact the have a stupid amount of money is better for us all in the long run   
 Where did you assume i hold some illusions of grandeur? If anything diamond its your patronising little rants that belie self importance, yes i shopuld really change anything i`ve said because you think i sound wrong. Its not that we`re too arrogant to change uour opinions its just you`ve given us no reason to consider doing so.
 AND as ever diamond the view from my ivory tower is shite. (got a plush new bathroom though, sold off some assets in a water company in some backward s.american country, PROFIT!!!  )


----------



## nosos (Aug 27, 2004)

Dr D, two questions: what do you do about these things that concern you so? Why do you presume that those who criticse you - me and Diamond being the most peritinent examples - are supporting/apathetic about the things that concern you?


----------



## Diamond (Aug 27, 2004)

kropotkin said:
			
		

> good posts yozz and nos.
> 
> Diamond: you do talk some crap. Your lame attempts to gain credibility for your views by appearing reasonable and centrist, with your middle-englander "common sense" and posts devoid of content but dripping with arrogant denunciations is really grating.
> 
> Address the points made to you.



Which points?

So far I´ve had yozz entreating me to wake up from my stupor, you labelling me some sort of little englander and Delirium continuing to try and pin opinions on me that I don`t hold. I don`t see one valid point there that`s worth addressing.

Anyway I`ll try and step away from this petty disingenous mudslinging to emphasise again that I probably agree with most of your individual criticisms, but that I see no sense in threads or opinions like this that trumpet some sort of arrogant intrepretation along the lines of "they`re all sheep, we`re all prophets and a good revolution will help the scales fall from their eyes".

Aside from implying that anyone who doesn`t agree with you is thick and unperceptive, romantic revolutionary notions have no grounding in reality. If you`re advocating gradual change based on a consensus then that`s different, but any political approach that has assumptions of the ignorant masses at its heart will never win any support or effect any change. Just to emphasise once more, I agree with the content of most of your criticisms, it`s just a question of the premises that you build your ideology on. To me the premises of yozz and Delirium seem patronising, arrogant and self-centred.

I won`t hesitate to tell them that especially when being a hypocrite comes into it. If you think I`m writing all of this for your benefit in an attempt to gain credibility from you, then I`m sorry but that seems like yet more evidence of a self-centred interpretation of this thread. I have my opinions, I voice them when I want, and they`re not constructed to win me friends or take the moral high ground. Believe it or not my actions and thoughts are independent from you.


----------



## nosos (Aug 27, 2004)

Excellent post, Diamond!


----------



## Diamond (Aug 27, 2004)

Dr Delirium said:
			
		

> Damn you beat me to the middle england slur!   And if you lived in argentina when it was going tits up then i wouldn`t even *have to tell you*...



That must make a nice change from educating the ignorant majority with their invalid opinions.

Is that what you`re used to doing Delirium, lecturing people on your superior opinions and perceptions?


----------



## yozz (Aug 28, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> I won`t hesitate to tell them that especially when being a hypocrite comes into it. If you think I`m writing all of this for your benefit in an attempt to gain credibility from you, then I`m sorry but that seems like yet more evidence of a self-centred interpretation of this thread. I have my opinions, I voice them when I want, and they`re not constructed to win me friends or take the moral high ground. Believe it or not my actions and thoughts are independent from you.



Who exactly is a hypocrite?

What makes you think anyone assumes you're writing this to gain credibility. Do you feel you have to gain credibility? I certainly don't. I'm expressing my opinions on a bulletin board that's all. 

What pisses people off, or at least what pisses me off, is that you waive aside centuries of working class struggle as irrelevant and try to label it as mere ideological posturing. If you're going to try and do something like that at least take the time to understand what you're going on about. A few fancy words and phrases doesn't impress.


----------



## Dr Delirium (Aug 28, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> Which points?
> 
> So far I´ve had yozz entreating me to wake up from my stupor, you labelling me some sort of little englander and Delirium continuing to try and pin opinions on me that I don`t hold. I don`t see one valid point there that`s worth addressing.
> 
> ...



[hangover mode engaged]
 I never meant to imply that the majority of society are sheep (once again!), nor did i mean that the dedicated followers of light and goodness need to lead a glorious revolution (of dark and death) in order to restore social balance, that was your interpretation of our posts. Seems you too are pinning beliefs to people, seems you are indeed the resident expert on hypocrisy...
 When i made the infamous sheep statement i was referring to consumer culture or outdoing the jones`. Its this that keeps a blanket over anyones real goals in life and essentially lowers people to the rank of servant as they slave away thinking their earning life rewards when in fact they are simply donating money to the already rich.
 Yes it does piss me off because people never seem to take a step back and realise what they are doing, never seeing past there own nose. However just because i`m of that opinion it doesn`t me i assume everyone is like that nor does it mean that i somehow see people who are very materialistic as any less human or "advanced" as myself. I`d love to know whats so self centred about our ideology because to me it looks pretty altruistic.
 We`ve gone completely off topic thanks to people wanting to butt in and tell us we`re all "yada yada yada i`m not changing anyones opinions but gee don`t i sound clever blah blah blah" The thread was supposed to be about real avenues of action for change (which even you must agree must occur), so why don`t we cut the crap and start there,
 Personally i think the main cause should be the revealing of the prestige class rather than the promotion of any specific ideal because all that happens is people disagree over whats right instead of simply removing what is wrong. We need people to actually realise that they actually have no power or say with representative democracy and that the people who do have the power are exploiting to the ill of mankind as a whole.


----------



## Mungy (Aug 28, 2004)

Hey guys. I'm a sheep. Well most of the time I am. I have occasional flashes of something that could be lucidity. When I read through threads like this I see there is a better way - then the enormity of the whole thing hits me. I'm unemployed, but full time carer of my wife, so I have little money. But I have a roof over my head and I can post to a messageboard on the internet pretty much when I want to (wife and newborn child now dicatate much of my free time  ), about pretty much what I want to. I may never see inside the hilton. And some family, much the same as mine in another part of the world doesn't have a roof nor clean water. How can I ever make up that difference? How can I ever clear my guilt? When I see those that suffer on my TV, when I see past the emotive way it is presented, I see people like me and my family. What can I ever do to make sure that no-one ever has to suffer like that family suffers? What can I do? The people I look to, the leaders of my country do nothing but posture for power. If it wasn't for the luxury of TV, I wouldn't even know people suffered in conditions I can't comprehend. As I said , I am a sheep. I think for myself in my own way, but I always look to others for guidance. I want to make a difference to this world, but where do I find that thing within myself that turns a sheep into a shepherd?


----------



## pbman (Aug 28, 2004)

Mungy said:
			
		

> Hey guys. I'm a sheep. Well most of the time I am. I have occasional flashes of something that could be lucidity. When I read through threads like this I see there is a better way - then the enormity of the whole thing hits me. I'm unemployed, but full time carer of my wife, so I have little money. But I have a roof over my head and I can post to a messageboard on the internet pretty much when I want to (wife and newborn child now dicatate much of my free time  ), about pretty much what I want to. I may never see inside the hilton. And some family, much the same as mine in another part of the world doesn't have a roof nor clean water. How can I ever make up that difference? How can I ever clear my guilt? When I see those that suffer on my TV, when I see past the emotive way it is presented, I see people like me and my family. What can I ever do to make sure that no-one ever has to suffer like that family suffers? What can I do? The people I look to, the leaders of my country do nothing but posture for power. If it wasn't for the luxury of TV, I wouldn't even know people suffered in conditions I can't comprehend. As I said , I am a sheep. I think for myself in my own way, but I always look to others for guidance. I want to make a difference to this world, but where do I find that thing within myself that turns a sheep into a shepherd?



You feel guilty?

Thats bizzare it took a thousand years of hard work and sacrifice to allow you to have such a nice lifestyle.

But as a people you have earned it with hard work, you have nothing to be ashamed off. You can't just give people in the third world what you have built up over such a long period of time. By all means we need to help them, but just giving things is counter productive.


----------



## FreddyB (Aug 28, 2004)

Mungy said:
			
		

> Hey guys. I'm a sheep. Well most of the time I am. I have occasional flashes of something that could be lucidity. When I read through threads like this I see there is a better way - then the enormity of the whole thing hits me. I'm unemployed, but full time carer of my wife, so I have little money. But I have a roof over my head and I can post to a messageboard on the internet pretty much when I want to (wife and newborn child now dicatate much of my free time  ), about pretty much what I want to. I may never see inside the hilton. And some family, much the same as mine in another part of the world doesn't have a roof nor clean water. How can I ever make up that difference? How can I ever clear my guilt? When I see those that suffer on my TV, when I see past the emotive way it is presented, I see people like me and my family. What can I ever do to make sure that no-one ever has to suffer like that family suffers? What can I do? The people I look to, the leaders of my country do nothing but posture for power. If it wasn't for the luxury of TV, I wouldn't even know people suffered in conditions I can't comprehend. As I said , I am a sheep. I think for myself in my own way, but I always look to others for guidance. I want to make a difference to this world, but where do I find that thing within myself that turns a sheep into a shepherd?




Thinking like that you already are. You see the plight of people as an issue that sticks in your head, not the advert for the new BMW.


----------



## Mungy (Aug 28, 2004)

pbman said:
			
		

> You feel guilty?
> 
> Thats bizzare it took a thousand years of hard work and sacrifice to allow you to have such a nice lifestyle.
> 
> But as a people you have earned it with hard work, you have nothing to be ashamed off. You can't just give people in the third world what you have built up over such a long period of time. By all means we need to help them, but just giving things is counter productive.



I suspect that much of the wealth this is in the UK and probably the rest of the developed world comes from our exploitation of the countries that now make up the third world. That is how I understand how the west became richer anyway. 

That aside, I agree just giving them things is not going to solve the problem. But as I said, I think that the actions of the developed countries has caused much of the problems in the world. There has to be something that can be done so that people all over the world don't suffer.


----------



## Mungy (Aug 28, 2004)

FreddyB said:
			
		

> Thinking like that you already are. You see the plight of people as an issue that sticks in your head, not the advert for the new BMW.



I don't have the means to help that family, or the millions like them all over the world and I don't have the means to buy that new BMW. It doesn't seem to make any difference, as I am powerless to do either.


----------



## FreddyB (Aug 28, 2004)

Mungy said:
			
		

> I don't have the means to help that family, or the millions like them all over the world and I don't have the means to buy that new BMW. It doesn't seem to make any difference, as I am powerless to do either.



Most of us are in exactly the same position, its which is important at this moment in time that seperates people. If you get the means which would benefit the poor or your local beemer dealer?

Your looking after you and yours, many don't even do that. Stop being hard on yourself


----------



## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

yozz said:
			
		

> What makes you think anyone assumes you're writing this to gain credibility. Do you feel you have to gain credibility? I certainly don't. I'm expressing my opinions on a bulletin board that's all.
> 
> What pisses people off, or at least what pisses me off, is that you waive aside centuries of working class struggle as irrelevant and try to label it as mere ideological posturing. If you're going to try and do something like that at least take the time to understand what you're going on about. A few fancy words and phrases doesn't impress.



My point about credibility was in reference to this from kroptokin in post #68:

"Your lame attempts to gain credibility"

It seems you can`t be arsed to read the thread before posting.

At no point have I waived aside "centuries of working class struggle", that`s your imagination going into overdrive again. I suppose you could believe that these "centuries of working class struggle" are synonyomous with your vague calls for total revolution, but that is too narcissitic and pathetic to even contemplate.




			
				Dr. Delirium said:
			
		

> Yes it does piss me off because people never seem to take a step back and realise what they are doing, never seeing past there own nose. However just because i`m of that opinion it doesn`t me i assume everyone is like that nor does it mean that i somehow see people who are very materialistic as any less human or "advanced" as myself. I`d love to know whats so self centred about our ideology because to me it looks pretty altruistic.



In one line you lament a generalised and unspecific "people" for being unperceptive and uncritical, but in the next you don`t claim that you are more advanced. What is the difference then that allows you to lump so many together and write them off as blind to the truth. Are you more enlightened? Can`t you see how that sounds unattractively superior? It`s that superiority that`s self-defeating for an evangelical movement such as yours.

In my opinion any ideology that places its followers and their beliefs and their wants and their prejudices at its heart, and above all others, is self-centred and arrogant.  




			
				Dr. Delirium said:
			
		

> Personally i think the main cause should be the revealing of the prestige class rather than the promotion of any specific ideal because all that happens is people disagree over whats right instead of simply removing what is wrong. We need people to actually realise that they actually have no power or say with representative democracy and that the people who do have the power are exploiting to the ill of mankind as a whole.



What is this prestige class that you talk of, is it the same as the nebulous "state" that yozz appreciates?

I do agree with you when it comes to exposing the power structures of modern society and the balancing effect of democracy, but it`s important to recognise that there`s a lot of mankind that is benefitting, rightly or wrongly, from the current system. These are generally speaking people who are happy with the system, be they rich or poor. It`s paramount that any "progressive" and universalistic ideology has the flexibility to modify itself so that it can please these individuals. If it doesn`t, it`s doomed; just look at pbman`s posts from earlier in the thread.

Personally I think that if economics was taught in all schools as compulsory up to GCSE level then we`d be a lot closer to having a society that appreciates its most central pillar. That pillar is not about having an advertising driven anxiety culture, nor is it about a democratic system that at best rewards a marginal majority, it`s about the simple rules of economics, with all their pros and cons exposed, and how these rules permeate every aspect of our lives and become distorted by nation states. Then people can make up their own minds and there would be no need for rabid revolutionaries preaching to the converted while crushing dissent.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

Tube strike scab.

*crushes dissent*


----------



## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Tube strike scab.
> 
> *crushes dissent*



Is this a reference to you trying to crush my dissent, or are you saying that by disagreeing with the majority of the people on these boards about the tube strikers I was crushing dissent?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

Naked:

"it`s about the simple rules of economics, with all their pros and cons exposed, and how these rules permeate every aspect of our lives"

He wants to _promote_this?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> Is this a reference to you trying to crush my dissent, or are you saying that by disagreeing with the majority of the people on these boards about the tube strikers I was crushing dissent?


 I'm saying that you're some kind of idiot.

The two examples - scabbing on the strike and talking in childish polemical terms of socialists 'crushing dissent' demonstrate this.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

"crushing dissent"

For fucks sake.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> I'm saying that you're some kind of idiot.
> 
> The two examples - scabbing on the strike and talking in childish polemical terms of socialists 'crushing dissent' demonstrate this.



So because I disagree with you I`m an idiot. Nice.

Personally you seem a bit thick to me for not realising that educating people about something (economics) enables them to think critically about it. It`s not about propaganda, it`s about the information that empowers someone to further their thinking.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

Ha! my work is done, exposed yourself for the ecomomics (there is no choice!) idiot we all knew you were.

You're an idiot because you're an idiot, don't blame me. The world needs less of people like you. So fucking arrogant but can't withstand one minor challange.


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

Lovely, how do you get into this self-selecting club of leaders who've decided just what/how other people should be educated  - this loving group of humanitarians -  Is it a public schoool deal - is that it? Were you at public school?

By what right have you placed yourself above everyone else? Is it genetic?


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## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Ha! my work is done, exposed yourself for the ecomomics (there is no choice!) idiot we all knew you were.



What the fuck are you talking about?

 The first thing taught in most economics courses is the fundamental economic problem: How to allocate limited resources to unlimited wants.

Understanding that that is the putative foundation of economics and society is not synonymous with promoting that premise or its current solution (capitalism) as true and good.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Is it because you can`t think beyond propaganda?




			
				butchersapron said:
			
		

> You're an idiot because you're an idiot, don't blame me. The world needs less of people like you. So fucking arrogant but can't withstand one minor challange.



What minor challenge are you talking about?

How did I not withstand it?

Or are you confusing your lame insults with sound reasoning and effective arguments?


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## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Lovely, how do you get into this self-selecting club of leaders who've decided just what/how other people should be educated  - this loving group of humanitarians -  Is it a public schoool deal - is that it? Were you at public school?
> 
> By what right have you placed yourself above everyone else? Is it genetic?



I don`t know how you change the curriculum? Did I say I did?

Did I say that I placed myself above everyone else?

Or did you construct some more bollocks after going back to the "What school did you go to thread".

If not I`ll make it easier for you to write me off. Yes I did go to public school. If that automatically invalidates any opinion I have on anything, so be it. But if that is your conclusion then it appears to prove my earlier point about rabid revolutionaries crushing dissent.


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

I think you're confusing your waffle -  boiled down to the point i quoted - with some wider or deeper point that you imagine you're  improbably making - when it's clear that your point is the most crude and juvenily determnistic point possible. 

This is all it is:

Teach economics. Becaue economics runs everything. A pathetic reductionist point to try and argue.

It's vulgar marxism but from the other side.


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

"Yes I did go to public school."

God i am _so_ suprised to hear that.

Look, i'm *crushing you.*


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## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> I think you're confusing your waffle -  boiled down to the point i quoted - with some wider or deeper point that you imagine you're  improbably making - when it's clear that your point is the most crude and juvenily determnistic point possible.
> 
> This is all it is:
> 
> ...



You can go ahead and misrepresent me like this if you want, or else you can explain why my support for teaching economics and belief that it underpins much of society equates to this simplistic phrase of yours: "Becaue economics runs everything".

You still haven`t come up with this "minor challenge" of which you speak.

To me it seems that you`re the "pathetic reductionist" trying to reduce my argument into something more specific and much easier for you to attack.


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## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> "Yes I did go to public school."
> 
> God i am _so_ suprised to hear that.
> 
> Look, i'm *crushing you.*



Sarcasm as the last resort then?


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> You can go ahead and misrepresent me like this if you want, or else you can explain why my support for teaching economics and belief that it underpins much of society equates to this simplistic phrase of yours: "Becaue economics runs everything".
> 
> You still haven`t come up with this "minor challenge" of which you speak.
> 
> To me it seems that you`re the "pathetic reductionist" trying to reduce my argument into something more specific and much easier for you to attack.


 If it were more complex i would try and reduce it - it isn't.

Nice to see our betters still concerned about the educational health of the lower orders though - esp given their vast exerience of the type of education that the maojority of the population goes through. Good to see that the clueless amateur ethic is still running strong amongst the toffs


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## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> If it were more complex i would try and reduce it - it isn't.
> 
> Nice to see our betters still concerned about the educational health of the lower orders though - esp given their vast exerience of the type of education that the maojority of the population goes through. Good to see that the clueless amateur ethic is still running strong amongst the toffs



Ah, no need for sarcasm. It seems that ad hominems will do.

p.s. Any chance of a counter-argument or debate any time soon, or are we going to continue this mudslinging?


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> Sarcasm as the last resort then?


 Only if you're going to attempt to even begin to defend your childsh hyperbole of those that disagree with you as 'crushing dissent' - tell it to the head of year or something.


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## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Only if you're going to attempt to even begin to defend your childsh hyperbole of those that disagree with you as 'crushing dissent' - tell it to the head of year or something.



So mudslinging it is then. In which case can I just point out that you might want to use a spell-checker?


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> Ah, no need for sarcasm. It seems that ad hominems will do.
> 
> p.s. Any chance of a counter-argument or debate any time soon, or are we going to continue this mudslinging?



A counter argument to what - your thatcherite assertions - i think you'll find i don't need to.

How about you answering just what it is fits a privliged public schoolboy to dictate what the majority of other schol pupils should study?


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

You call that mud - oh that wounds my heart so. I spelt something wrong - do you understand the enormity of this? I spelt something wrong!!!!! What ever will we do etc


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## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> A counter argument to what - your thatcherite assertions - i think you'll find i don't need to.
> 
> How about you answering just what it is fits a privliged public schoolboy to dictate what the majority of other schol pupils should study?



The last time I checked teaching the modern economic system with a view to criticising it is not thatcherite. In fact the monetarism of which thatcher was so fond of advocated the inevitability of the modern economic system and therefore discouraged any criticisms by implication.

How am I dictating to people when I`m expressing my opinions and making it more than obvious with the required caveats? I`ve more than once emphasised the need for consensual change on this thread, but it`s clearly easier to ignore that and continue with the personal attacks.


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

*"Yes I did go to public school."*

Ok as you did not like my previous reply. I'm entirely unsuprised that someone as pompous, self-regarding, conservative and downright ignorant of conditions other than your own is a product of the public school system - given that i've seen literally hundeds of people like you, all with the same fundamental failings and the same willingness to ignore these failings with a superior snobby attitude to each and every person from outside your own priviliged little circle. Just like you here in fact.

Is that better?


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## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> *"Yes I did go to public school."*
> 
> Ok as you did not like my previous reply. I'm entirely unsuprised that someone as pompous, self-regarding, conservative and downright ignorant of conditions other than your own is a product of the public school system - given that i've seen literally hundeds of people like you, all with the same fundamental failings and the same willingness to ignore these failings with a superior snobby attitude to each and every person from outside your own priviliged little circle. Just like you here in fact.
> 
> Is that better?



It must be nice for you to think that you`re perceptive enough to draw such sweeping conclusions about my character and my experiences without ever having met me.

More personal attacks, or are you going to engage in debate? I need to have my dinner and don`t know whether it`s going to be worth wading through your insults in search of a valid point.


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> The last time I checked teaching the modern economic system with a view to criticising it is not thatcherite. In fact the monetarism of which thatcher was so fond of advocated the inevitability of the modern economic system and therefore discouraged any criticisms by implication.
> 
> How am I dictating to people when I`m expressing my opinions and making it more than obvious with the required caveats? I`ve more than once emphasised the need for consensual change on this thread, but it`s clearly easier to ignore that and continue with the personal attacks.



No, but _your suggested reforms are_. Good god, back up your points or don't make them.

Right, you have no experience whatsoever in the area, yet feel that you're fit to pass judgement on what should be taught - the same thatcherite stuf as the above point oddly enough. Just a hint of patrician dictation ther eh?


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## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> No, but _your suggested reforms are_. Good god, back up your points or don't make them.
> 
> Right, you have no experience whatsoever in the area, yet feel that you're fit to pass judgement on what should be taught - the same thatcherite stuf as the above point oddly enough. Just a hint of patrician dictation ther eh?



Are you confusing passing judgement and dictating people with holding an opinion?

I understand that teaching economics in schools may not be viable in many cases because for various reasons they have trouble teaching what the national curriculum already gives them to do, and on top of that economics is a more difficult and less interesting subject than others. But those are problems that are to do with the education system, not the suggestion that economics should be taught critically and universally as part of a "progressive" society.


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> It must be nice for you to think that you`re perceptive enough to draw such sweeping conclusions about my character and my experiences without ever having met me.
> 
> More personal attacks, or are you going to engage in debate? I need to have my dinner and don`t know whether it`s going to be worth wading through your insults in search of a valid point.



No, not nice - horrible. I don't like people like you. Never have. Never will. The quicker you leave the earth the better. Faux-intellectuals. Bored rich kids. Thicker than pig shit but twice as rich. I meet people who walk all over you in the intellectual stakes every day - but you got your start already don't you, and no upstart little shuit like me is ever going to catch you up am i. And you better fucking hope that people like me don't *ever* catch up with you.


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> Are you confusing passing judgement and dictating people with holding an opinion?


 Are you confusing asking what your experince is with 'crushing dissent'?


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## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> No, not nice - horrible. I don't like people like you. Never have. Never will. The quicker you leave the earth the better. Faux-intellectuals. Bored rich kids. Thicker than pig shit but twice as rich. I meet people who walk all over you in the intellectual stakes every day - but you got your start already don't you, and no upstart little shuit like me is ever going to catch you up am i. And you better fucking hope that people like me don't *ever* catch up with you.



Well I tried to be reasonable and get this thread back on topic but fuck you to be honest. If you`re going to continue criticising me because of my background then there`s no point in continuing this. Just remember you`re the one who broke it down to this base level, not me.


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

Not strictly true. But if you want me to take the blame for your priviliged life and my diasgreement with you being able to have it then fine...blame me. I did pay for it after all.


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## Diamond (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Not strictly true. But if you want me to take the blame for your priviliged life and my diasgreement with you being able to have it then fine...blame me. I did pay for it after all.



I don`t really give a shit about any "blame". I live my life and am not plagued by guilt.

But let me ask you this, who paid for your country?

Who worked so hard for so little that the poverty line in England exists at a level that far exceeds any in South America, Africa, or most of Asia and the Middle East?

There`s a lot poorer people out there and they "paid" for you, as your facile phrase has it. Of course you had no control over it, but by your reasoning you should feel wracked with guilt anyway because you still profit from their deeds.


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## kropotkin (Aug 30, 2004)

Not if a class is brought into it, but then *that* might be a little _too_ critical....


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## pbman (Aug 30, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> Well I tried to be reasonable and get this thread back on topic but fuck you to be honest. If you`re going to continue criticising me because of my background then there`s no point in continuing this. Just remember you`re the one who broke it down to this base level, not me.



Don't take any shit form him, its clear that he has gotten on his high horse. And is arguing agaisnt his own sterotype.


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## pbman (Aug 30, 2004)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Not strictly true. But if you want me to take the blame for your priviliged life and my diasgreement with you being able to have it then fine...blame me. I did pay for it after all.



Lighten up frances, he's a new guy.


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## nosos (Aug 30, 2004)

Diamond said:
			
		

> It`s paramount that any "progressive" and universalistic ideology has the flexibility to modify itself so that it can please these individuals.



Our man has a point ...

So stop crushing his dissent.


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

What he means though is - don't fuck the rich off, _we get angry._


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## nosos (Aug 30, 2004)

You cynic.

If only you'd be taught economics in schools, you'd understand that you're just a rabid revolutinary.


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

I think the problem might actually have _started_ with some boss cunt _trying_ to teach me economics in school...


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## nosos (Aug 30, 2004)

Really? Mine started when my teacher told me that I couldn't paint an Anarchy sign on my backpack!


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## butchersapron (Aug 30, 2004)

But i've seen the backpack - there was clearly visible, a badly drawn tippexed anarchy/circle symbol - good for you and all the _oppressed Youth_ of this capitalist death camp!


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## nosos (Aug 30, 2004)

Well exactly! The fascist police state tells the yoof that their meaning in life is to grow, be educated and work!

What about free expression? What about the right to party?

Rave for revolution mother-fucker!

 

Where's me 50 cent?


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## yozz (Aug 31, 2004)

nosos said:
			
		

> Really? Mine started when my teacher told me that I couldn't paint an Anarchy sign on my backpack!



Tippex or marker pen?


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## nosos (Aug 31, 2004)

Acrylic paint!

Duh!

Ffs, Tipex is capitalist!


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## yozz (Aug 31, 2004)

Brush or tube young nosos?


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