# going to socialist party meetings?



## Jon-of-arc (May 19, 2012)

Yo, need some political advice...

Around 2006, I decided I wanted to "help make a difference" to the world.  Randomly, I met the local anarchist group in my town and they were happy to involve me, despite me saying openly that I wasn't really sure about where my politics stood.  

I got involved, we did some things, and I can look back on that period of my life with a bit of pride, knowing that I got involved in a community campaign that I believed in, and feeling good about the way that it was conducted.

At a certain point, I kind of fucked up my life.  At around the same point, the anarchist group seems to have become less active.  

Since getting my life semi-back on track, I have tried to get back involved in politics.  This has only really been for the last 8 months or so, and hasn't been entirely successful. There seems to be little going on that I really feel I should be helping.  The only thing I have done is some "green party" canvassing.  The green guy knows that I'm not 100% with his party, but he is a mate and was grateful for all the help he could get around last month.

The one thing that does interest me locally is the Socialist Party.  One member works in my office and I vaguely know him through previous politicking.   He had invited me along to a meeting.

But, a, anyone who has paid the slightest bit of attention to my posts in politics knows that I'm hardly knowledgable, and have pretty flakey views when it comes to socialism. And b, the SP seems dry as fuck and I can't tell what local campaigns they're into that i can get involved.

And it is important for me to get involved, to be doing something.  I got a sense of purpose out of previous actions.  I'd like to get this again.  But internet research suggests the SP is a bit.... I dunno, motionless?  

Anyway, i'd be grateful if people were nice to me on this thread.  Thanks.


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## articul8 (May 19, 2012)

Go along?  See if you agree with them - if you don't or aren't ready to commit what have you lost?


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## Jon-of-arc (May 19, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Go along? See if you agree with them - if you don't or aren't ready to commit what have you lost?


 
That's the plan.  But I was hoping to get a bit of insight before i did.

Thanks, though.


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## Spanky Longhorn (May 19, 2012)

To be honest (and speaking as someone who definately is not a trot) I think hanging out and doing a bit of work with the SP would do you the world of good politically - you may or may not stick with them, but I think they would help you learn a bit and get a bit of structure.


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## goldenecitrone (May 19, 2012)

Have you got a gun? IWCA are looking for new members.


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## Edie (May 19, 2012)

Uh I went along to one of these meetings a while back. It was funny as fuck. I'll try and dig out my post about it...

Here ya go: [Sat 19th Nov 2011] "What's wrong with using parliament?" (Leeds - 19th November) (Leeds, LS1 3DL)

 at me on that thread


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## Jon-of-arc (May 19, 2012)

This may sound naieve, but I dont give much of a fuck about learning politically. Well, maybe I do, slightlu. But I dont see.politics as something that complicated that I should have to have a fine understanding of marx before I should allow myself an opinion. 

Or maybe I should. But I think it more important to be making changes in the world than to have exactly perfect politics.


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## krtek a houby (May 19, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> This may sound naieve, but I dont give much of a fuck about learning politically. Well, maybe I do, slightlu. But I dont see.politics as something that complicated that I should have to have a fine understanding of marx before I should allow myself an opinion.
> 
> Or maybe I should.* But I think it more important to be making changes in the world than to have exactly perfect politics*.


 
Been waiting years for someone to say this on urban. Good on you. Nail on the head, imho.


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## Jon-of-arc (May 19, 2012)

Edie said:


> Uh I went along to one of these meetings a while back. It was funny as fuck. I'll try and dig out my post about it...
> 
> Here ya go: [Sat 19th Nov 2011] "What's wrong with using parliament?" (Leeds - 19th November) (Leeds, LS1 3DL)
> 
> ...


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## articul8 (May 19, 2012)

Edie said:


> at me on that thread


 
Edie's meeting was Socialist Party of Great Britain - I assume you're talking about Socialist Party of England/Wales?


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## Jon-of-arc (May 19, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Edie's meeting was Socialist Party of Great Britain - I assume you're talking about Socialist Party of England/Wales?



I have no fucking idea.

Pretty sure its the "main" one. Ive read the paper. Its hard to read.


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## articul8 (May 19, 2012)

If their paper is "The Socialist" that's the SP.  If it is sold by elderly people from Clapham and talks about abolishing money it's the SPGB.


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## SpineyNorman (May 19, 2012)

I'm sure it will be the SP if you've bought the paper - our paper is called the socialist - is that it?

As people on here know, I'm in the SP but I'll try and answer objectively.

There will be discussions on political theory and history if you go to meetings but although you say you're not interested in learning about Marx etc. it can't hurt to have a look can it? Not everyone there will have read the Marxist classics so you won't be looked down on for that - you'll be made welcome - especially as you say you're ready to get your hands dirty and get involved in campaigns. And if there's anything you want to know about the party just ask - provided you broadly agree with its aims I think you'll find it something you can get involved with (I still don't agree with everything but I do on the important stuff).

Of the trot groups I'd say, from personal experience, that it's the least "culty" one of all and the only one that doesn't get "wtf, you're metal" type looks from people on the street. Although there are one or two people still obsessed with 20th century Russia there's less of them than in other groups. And if you're wanting to get involved in local campaigns it's certainly the best left group to join - that's precisely the reason why I joined just over a year ago, after a couple of years in the political wilderness after almost being put off politics altogether by another group that will remain nameless.

In fact, when I joined I did almost exactly what you've just done - appealed to the wisdom of Urban to help me decide. The thread's here and there were 20 pages of responses so it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to take a look at it.

My advice would be to go along and have a look - you don't have to join to go to meetings or get involved in campaiging, I went to meetings and did bits and bobs on and off for about a year before I joined and I've known people do the same for even longer. So I'd suggest that you go to a few meetings and maybe do some campaigning activity then have a think about whether it's for you.

But even if you do go and don't think it's for you don't be put off - the most important thing is that you're active IMO and there's other groups out there. I nearly made the mistake of letting bad experiences in a group put me off and I'm really glad I didn't.

Hope that helps.


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## Jon-of-arc (May 19, 2012)

Thanks, sn. Exactly the type of advice I was hoping for.


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## imposs1904 (May 19, 2012)

articul8 said:


> If their paper is "The Socialist" that's the SP. If *it is sold by elderly people* from Clapham and talks about abolishing money it's the SPGB.


 
i'm only 40 you twunt


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## articul8 (May 19, 2012)

only slightly elderly


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## imposs1904 (May 19, 2012)

articul8 said:


> only slightly elderly


 
isn't the average age on urban fortyish?

eta: I just remembered that when I joined the Labour Party as a 15 year old, I went along to the local Labour Party ward meeting and, with the exception of the ward secretary and myself, the average age of the Labour Party members in attendance was about 50-55. They spoke very fondly of Arthur Greenwood.


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## articul8 (May 19, 2012)

may well be - makes me nearly eligible for the youth wing


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## articul8 (May 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> In fact, when I joined I did almost exactly what you've just done - appealed to the wisdom of Urban to help me decide. The thread's here and there were 20 pages of responses so it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to take a look at it.


Moon23 was ex-SP


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## Blagsta (May 19, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Moon23 was ex-SP


 
he went to a meeting once, I don't think he was ever a member


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## stuff_it (May 19, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> isn't the average age on urban fortyish?


With the way things are going 75 will be the boards average retirement age.


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## SpineyNorman (May 19, 2012)

If I recall correctly he didn't know whether it was us or the SPGB he'd been a member of so he can't have been too heavily involved.

He became an anarchist after that lol


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## articul8 (May 19, 2012)

shortly before his LD career, and support for right wing libertarian nutjob groups


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## articul8 (May 19, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> eta: I just remembered that when I joined the Labour Party as a 15 year old, I went along to the local Labour Party ward meeting and, with the exception of the ward secretary and myself, the average age of the Labour Party members in attendance was about 50-55. They spoke very fondly of Arthur Greenwood.


 
Me and a couple of mates went to a launch meeting for the SLP in Trimdon, Co Durham (Blair's patch) - we were by at least 40 years the youngest people in the room.


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## temper_tantrum (May 19, 2012)

Find your local anti-cuts group and get involved with them. Use that experience of actual organising and campaigning to refine your political views. Then consider what political parties if any suit you. You may encounter them as part of your anti-cuts work, in which case you'll be able to build up your own assessment of their positions and perspectives.


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## Jean-Luc (May 19, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Pretty sure its the "main" one.


Ah, but which is the "main" one? The SP(GB) has been going since 1904. SP(EW) is the current name of the Militant Tendency after they were booted out of the Labour Party in 1980s - that's why they're so "elderly" (if being in your 50s is elderly). They were teenage Militants. See if you can guess which one this elderly gentleman represents.


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## SpineyNorman (May 19, 2012)

lol


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## binka (May 19, 2012)

bit of a coincidence because ive been thinking about getting involved in something locally. now i have a job and am back in manchester it no longer seems ok that my sole contribution to the anti cuts movement is to go on my laptop and tut at various outrages


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## SpineyNorman (May 19, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Thanks, sn. Exactly the type of advice I was hoping for.


 
Glad it helped. Thinking about it your situation isn't that different from what mine was. I'd been involved politically years before (mainly antifascist and union stuff) but my life took a bit of a downwards turn for about a decade (drugs in my case). I wasn't in the least bit interested in political theory or history but then when I sorted myself out I decided to get involved again and joined the SWP. It was a bit of a disaster but it did give me an interest in history and political theory and I ended up going to college and then uni to study history and politics, at which point I joined the SP. So you never know, might get a taste for it - I'd have never thought I would have.


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## Spanky Longhorn (May 20, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> This may sound naieve, but I dont give much of a fuck about learning politically. Well, maybe I do, slightlu. But I dont see.politics as something that complicated that I should have to have a fine understanding of marx before I should allow myself an opinion.
> 
> Or maybe I should. But I think it more important to be making changes in the world than to have exactly perfect politics.


 
Don't think anyone was suggesting you should - no one really says that on here since the SWP posters fucked off.

Having said that you are a bit flakey and there are some important points the SP could probably help you with as much as I don't agree with them on lots of things.


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## Geri (May 20, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> My advice would be to go along and have a look - you don't have to join to go to meetings or get involved in campaiging, I went to meetings and did bits and bobs on and off for about a year before I joined and I've known people do the same for even longer. So I'd suggest that you go to a few meetings and maybe do some campaigning activity then have a think about whether it's for you.


 
When I was in the SP (Militant as it was then) we had people who regularly came to meetings who never actually joined. Conversely, we had a lot of members who I never saw at meetings, ever.

I have to be honest and say I found the meetings a bit boring, I much preferred the activity side of things.


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## Fedayn (May 20, 2012)

Geri said:


> Conversely, we had a lot of members who I never saw at meetings, ever.


 
Often referred to as 'too busy CPSA comrades' given the seeming habit of CPSA members who were in Militant not going to branch meetings.


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## Geri (May 20, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Often referred to as 'too busy CPSA comrades' given the seeming habit of CPSA members who were in Militant not going to branch meetings.


 
Correct, and those in the NUT also.


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## The39thStep (May 20, 2012)

Geri said:


> Correct, and those in the NUT also.


 
Probably marking ie drinking wine and watching Dangerous House Wives.


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## The39thStep (May 20, 2012)

I once went to an IMG meeting and then  a couple of 'educationals' They asked me to do some prep reading which was bad enough but it was holding the meetings on Friday evening which I found really disturbing. 

Also went to an SWP meeting in Coventry when I was working away for a week ( can't knock me for dedication as an advanced worker comrades) and made what I thought was a good contribution ans then got harangued by SWP members who thought I was in a rival political group.


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## malatesta32 (May 20, 2012)

the Mala-sisters SP and altho shes a bit veggie/animal rights  thinks theyre ok except when the fash are concerned - and theres a few where she is. she says they dinnae have the muscle and shes only wee.


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## SpineyNorman (May 20, 2012)

The SP isn't a specifically antifascist group though, and the approach is that the only way to defeat fascism is in the short term to defend the interests of the working class in a progressive way (which I'd say is the only effective way to do it) and in the long term to produce a genuine alternative to the status quo. While at times there may still be a place for physical force antifascism I think organising in communities and building an alternative is the most important thing.

I guess it depends which branch you're in but the SP, like any organisation, has people who wouldn't be much use in a fight but also does still have some "muscle" - like me - I'm well fucking hard!


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## Jean-Luc (May 20, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I once went to an IMG meeting and then a couple of 'educationals'


Hope you don't have to learn and agree with this.


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## The39thStep (May 20, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Hope you don't have to learn and agree with this.


 
In the Socialist Party?

No question about it mate . That is their position and will be your position.

You are not going to go far with them if you don't accept that 1917 is where it was all at and will be! They are Trots and you will have to learn their line.


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## audiotech (May 20, 2012)

Unlikely these days to be singing in unison: "Derek Hatton, Derek Hatton, we'll support you evermore, we'll support you evermore", which was my experience of the then _Militant_, SPEW's antecedents.


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## Idris2002 (May 20, 2012)

Never go full Trotsky.


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## SpineyNorman (May 20, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Hope you don't have to learn and agree with this.


 
Unlikely - I've never read it and I'm certainly not planning to!


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## Red Storm (May 20, 2012)

I was in the SP and a lot of my mates joined. We all stayed in between 6 months to 18months. I think we all learnt a lot; not just theory.

It's worth it IMO. As long as you don't get sucked in too far and keep a level head.

Meetings and paper sales with cranks wasn't for us in the end.

There is often no other groups much better than the SP in areas.


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## Jon-of-arc (May 20, 2012)

Do they do anything but sell papers?  I'd feel a bit embarrassed selling that paper, and reading it is hard fucking work (dry as fuck - they seem to be able to be boring on almost any important workers issue going...).


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## SpineyNorman (May 20, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Do they do anything but sell papers? I'd feel a bit embarrassed selling that paper, and reading it is hard fucking work (dry as fuck - they seem to be able to be boring on almost any important workers issue going...).


 
Yes. Deepends a lot on the individual branch, but we do a lot more than that. Work in unions, anti-cuts groups, doorstep work and so on, plus we get involved in local campaigns - at the minute in my branch we're working on a campaign around recycling sites threatened with closure, but as more cuts come there'll be campaigns arounf libraries, sure start centres, benefits, disabilities aids, all that kind of stuff.

And even at paper sales it's not so much puching papers under peoples' noses. We normally have a stall with papers on it, but people mainly come to sign petitions, at which point we'll engage them in conversation, asking about their concerns, what's going on in their local area - that kind of thing. Before they leave we'll offer them a paper but it's as much about keeping informed about local issues and the local mood as it is about flogging papers.

Agree that the paper could be more entertaining though, I usually read it but sometimes it can be hard work.


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## A-C (May 20, 2012)

I was in the SWP for years and it taught me how to read academic books, how to actually debate and generally how to use my brain better. It probably sounds daft but I went to a secondary modern and academia was a complete mystery to me. 

The SWP has it's fault, but teaching working class kids how to understand Marxist economics is actually really valuable and I imagine the SP are similar. It shouldn't just be about activism, learning some theory is worthwhile.


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## frogwoman (May 21, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Do they do anything but sell papers? I'd feel a bit embarrassed selling that paper, and reading it is hard fucking work (dry as fuck - they seem to be able to be boring on almost any important workers issue going...).


 
no reason to feel embarrassed. It's a good way of talking to people


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## stuff_it (May 21, 2012)

I am watching this thread with interest; despite the fact that I know the left isn't as well organised as it ought to be, I had no idea how good it was at being disorganised. Even at my age it's a complete eye-opener.

Jon, if you really fancy getting deep down and dirty join Greenpeace Action.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 21, 2012)

Also watching with interest - starting to think about getting a bit more politically involved when the move back to SE London finally happens...


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## frogwoman (May 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yes. Deepends a lot on the individual branch, but we do a lot more than that. Work in unions, anti-cuts groups, doorstep work and so on, plus we get involved in local campaigns - at the minute in my branch we're working on a campaign around recycling sites threatened with closure, but as more cuts come there'll be campaigns arounf libraries, sure start centres, benefits, disabilities aids, all that kind of stuff.
> 
> And even at paper sales it's not so much puching papers under peoples' noses. We normally have a stall with papers on it, but people mainly come to sign petitions, at which point we'll engage them in conversation, asking about their concerns, what's going on in their local area - that kind of thing. Before they leave we'll offer them a paper but it's as much about keeping informed about local issues and the local mood as it is about flogging papers.
> 
> Agree that the paper could be more entertaining though, I usually read it but sometimes it can be hard work.


 
this


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## SpineyNorman (May 21, 2012)

stuff_it said:


> Jon, if you really fancy getting deep down and dirty join Greenpeace Action.


 
Sorry but lol


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## DotCommunist (May 21, 2012)

It's the least mental of the trots groupings, it does good cross union work in an era when cross union work HAS to be third party. Go for it jonno, whats the worst that could happen?


they still owe me 30p for buying a paper 'I don't have any change' then why are selling a bleeding paper!? 

bring that up, the issue of having a basic float for all hawkers of the Socialist.


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## imposs1904 (May 21, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> It's the least mental of the trots groupings, it does good cross union work in an era when cross union work HAS to be third party. Go for it jonno, whats the worst that could happen?
> 
> 
> they still owe me 30p for buying a paper 'I don't have any change' then why are selling a bleeding paper!?
> ...


 
S/he probably marked you down as paying the supporter/solidarity price for the paper.


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## barney_pig (May 21, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> It's the least mental of the trots groupings, it does good cross union work in an era when cross union work HAS to be third party. Go for it jonno, whats the worst that could happen?
> 
> 
> they still owe me 30p for buying a paper 'I don't have any change' then why are selling a bleeding paper!?
> ...


every time I stop outside smiths and buy a 'Socialist' I hand over the cash and they give me a paper and then there is a long pause as I wait for the change and the seller stands stock still hoping it will become a solidarity sale by sheer force of will.


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## Jean-Luc (May 21, 2012)

Anyone considering becoming a Trotskyist should probably first try to get to this Socialist Party meeting.


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## articul8 (May 21, 2012)

> Two handouts will be presented




How could anyone resist?


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## danny la rouge (May 21, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> This may sound naieve, but I dont give much of a fuck about learning politically. Well, maybe I do, slightlu. But I dont see.politics as something that complicated that I should have to have a fine understanding of marx before I should allow myself an opinion.
> 
> Or maybe I should. But I think it more important to be making changes in the world than to have exactly perfect politics.


Indeed.  But have you not even given the Manifesto a go?  It's short and a very easy read (although from chapter 3 on it's basically just slagging other socialists off, which is entertaining, but hardly illuminating).  I'd have thought anyone with even a slight interest in politics might have read it.

On your quandary, I'd say it depends on the branch.  But I've always had far more time for Millies than Swappies.


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## frogwoman (May 21, 2012)

You should join,I'm in the SP and as I'm sure you can see it's not done me any harm


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## danny la rouge (May 21, 2012)

Oh, wait a minute...


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## Jean-Luc (May 21, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> You should join,I'm in the SP


What do you have to do to join. Is it like joining the SWP where you sign a piece of paper saying you're anti-racist and you're in?


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## butchersapron (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> What do you have to do to join. Is it like joining the SWP where you sign a piece of paper saying you're anti-racist and you're in?


That waived that requirement a few years back.


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## danny la rouge (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> What do you have to do to join. Is it like joining the SWP where you sign a piece of paper saying you're anti-racist and you're in?


No, Froggie has to drop a coin in your beer.


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## Idris2002 (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> What do you have to do to join. I


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## frogwoman (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> What do you have to do to join. Is it like joining the SWP where you sign a piece of paper saying you're anti-racist and you're in?


 
no, you just join. there's no entrance exam or anything


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## SpineyNorman (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> What do you have to do to join. Is it like joining the SWP where you sign a piece of paper saying you're anti-racist and you're in?


 
No. We have a comprehensive series of exams to test the revolutionary purity and political development of all prospective comrades.


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## imposs1904 (May 21, 2012)

articul8 said:


> How could anyone resist?


 
you clicked, then.


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## imposs1904 (May 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> No. We have a comprehensive series of exams to test the revolutionary purity and political development of all prospective comrades.


 
ah, the good old days of the rsl.


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## frogwoman (May 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> No. We have a comprehensive series of exams to test the revolutionary purity and political development of all prospective comrades.


 
I thought the SPGB did that?


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## imposs1904 (May 21, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> I thought the SPGB did that?


 
keep up to speed with spiney, froggy. that's what s/he was alluding to.


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## imposs1904 (May 21, 2012)

articul8 said:


> _Two handouts will be presented_
> 
> How could anyone resist?


 
tea _*and*_ biscuits? Lovely.


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## el-ahrairah (May 21, 2012)

Biscuit.  One comrade, one biscuit.

They're not made of money you know.


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## Jean-Luc (May 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> No. We have a comprehensive series of exams to test the revolutionary purity and political development of all prospective comrades.


You mean like this one?


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## el-ahrairah (May 21, 2012)

Also, I was happy to note the advertisements on the Socialist Party's website for Russian Brides.


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## frogwoman (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> You mean like this one?


 
so basically to answer all those questions the will have to have been going to SPGB meetings for a while?


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## SpineyNorman (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> You mean like this one?


 
LOL You're actually serious aren't you


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## butchersapron (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> You mean like this one?


The official answers on 8-12 are wrong.


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## imposs1904 (May 21, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> Also, I was happy to note the advertisements on the Socialist Party's website for Russian Brides.


 
Isn't that more about the your web-browsing history, though? Something to do with algorithms registers and other techno gub I don't understand? 

It's the same reason why I'm always getting ads for tee shirt companies when I click on facebook.


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## el-ahrairah (May 21, 2012)

But I've already got a Russian Bride, why would I want a new one?


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## frogwoman (May 21, 2012)

i got an advert for the lib-dems on facebook


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## imposs1904 (May 21, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> But I've already got a Russian Bride, why would I want a new one?


 
delete your cookie cache on your computer and I'm sure the problem won't arise again.


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## Jean-Luc (May 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> LOL You're actually serious aren't you


What, you finding questions 1-4 too difficult?


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## SpineyNorman (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> What, you finding questions 1-4 too difficult?


 
Yes. I guess I'm just not intellectual enough to be a socialist, best leave it all to clever middle class types


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## butchersapron (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> What, you finding questions 1-4 too difficult?


Noticeable that first 7 of the 12 questions are simple descriptive ones that even the SPGB can get right, but the final 5 - the _political_ ones - the SPGB gets wrong.


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## Jean-Luc (May 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yes. I guess I'm just not intellectual enough to be a socialist, best leave it all to clever middle class types


I see you agree with Lenin that "the working class, exclusively by its own  efforts, is able to develop only trade union consciousness, i.e., the conviction that it is necessary to combine in unions, fight the employers and strive to compel the government to pass necessary labour legislation, etc. "


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## SpineyNorman (May 21, 2012)

No I don't. Can you piss off now? You're a very boring person.


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## chilango (May 21, 2012)

...er have ProleDem taken over this thread now too?



> I see you agree with Lenin that "the working class, exclusively by its own efforts, is able to develop only trade union consciousness, i.e., the conviction that it is necessary to combine in unions, fight the employers and strive to compel the government to pass necessary labour legislation, etc. "


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## el-ahrairah (May 21, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> delete your cookie cache on your computer and I'm sure the problem won't arise again.


 
Thank you comrade.  I will get Katya to do it when she has finished the ironing.


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## Jean-Luc (May 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Noticeable that first 7 of the 12 questions are simple descriptive ones that even the SPGB can get right, but the final 5 - the _political_ ones - the SPGB gets wrong.


Maybe, but are you sure SPEW would get even 4 and 5 right?


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## SpineyNorman (May 21, 2012)

No cos we're reformist deviationists from the parasitical milieu


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## butchersapron (May 21, 2012)

Docs gone down and can't remember what those specific questions were. I think one was the socialism in one country and the other are there any socialist countries?


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## SpineyNorman (May 21, 2012)

Thing is, Jon is thinking about getting involved politically. Be nice if he joined the SP but I'm not overly arsed - the important thing is that he gets involved somewhere. This kind of shit isn't likely to inspire him to do that is it? This bollocks puts people off the left as a whole, doesn't do any of us any favours.


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## barney_pig (May 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Thing is, Jon is thinking about getting involved politically. Be nice if he joined the SP but I'm not overly arsed - the important thing is that he gets involved somewhere. This kind of shit isn't likely to inspire him to do that is it? This bollocks puts people off the left as a whole, doesn't do any of us any favours.


but steer clear of the SWP (seriously)


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## SpineyNorman (May 21, 2012)

Although it may make me look a bit hypocritical after that last post, barney_pig is talking sense on that one.


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## Jean-Luc (May 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Docs gone down and can't remember what those specific questions were. I think one was the socialism in one country and the other are there any socialist countries?


No, I think they'd get those right. It was these two.
4. What do you understand by the word 'socialism'?

5. Why do socialists say there will be no trade or money in a socialist 
society? On what basis will wealth be distributed?


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## frogwoman (May 21, 2012)

surely it's better that people get involved in something constructive rather than agree on all theoretical questions (the answers to which may be wrong anyway?)


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## SpineyNorman (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> No, I think they'd get those right. It was these two.
> 4. What do you understand by the word 'socialism'?
> 
> 5. Why do socialists say there will be no trade or money in a socialist
> society? On what basis will wealth be distributed?


 
*Bites lip in desperate attempt to avoid pointing out that 5 is a classic example of question begging since "socialists" don't say it and getting rid of money won't magic away capitalism and bring about utopia*


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## articul8 (May 21, 2012)

> What do you understand by the word 'socialism'?


This is a bloody good question.


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## butchersapron (May 21, 2012)

articul8 said:


> This is a bloody good question.


Is it fuck. The right answer is_ you believe what we believe right?_ It's not an opening for some of your waffle.


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## Louis MacNeice (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> What do you understand by the word 'socialism'?


 
Communism


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## Jean-Luc (May 21, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Communism


Full marks !


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## articul8 (May 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Is it fuck. The right answer is_ you believe what we believe right?_ It's not an opening for some of your waffle.


It's a good question as long as the people asking it don't just assume, which of course they do, that they have an adequate answer. 

SP would tend to close down the question with a basic line about public ownership under democratic workers control and management - with an "it'll be alright on the night" mentality about how that would work, very little in the way of concrete historical analysis.


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## articul8 (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Full marks !


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## butchersapron (May 21, 2012)

articul8 said:


> It's a good question as long as the people asking it don't just assume, which of course they do, that they have an adequate answer.


 
So, let me get this right - it's a good question but only as long as it's not the things which make it not - which it is?

Not interested in the rest.


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## articul8 (May 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> So, let me get this right - it's a good question but only as long as it's not the things which make it not - which it is?


 
There' nothing wrong with the question. It's their glib notion of what kind of answer would be appropriate that's the problem.



> Not interested in the rest.


Liar.


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## barney_pig (May 21, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> 4. What do you understand by the word 'socialism'?


a whale in every kitchen, and a workers bomb.


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## frogwoman (May 21, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> the Mala-sisters SP and altho shes a bit veggie/animal rights thinks theyre ok except when the fash are concerned - and theres a few where she is. she says they dinnae have the muscle and shes only wee.


 
SP and CWI are all right where the fash are concerned tbh, imo. I know i am biased cos i am a member and that but it's true imo!! besides i think everyone here knows my opinion of the fash and it's never been a problem for me in the SP.


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## malatesta32 (May 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> The SP isn't a specifically antifascist group though, and the approach is that the only way to defeat fascism is in the short term to defend the interests of the working class in a progressive way (which I'd say is the only effective way to do it) and in the long term to produce a genuine alternative to the status quo. While at times there may still be a place for physical force antifascism I think organising in communities and building an alternative is the most important thing.
> 
> I guess it depends which branch you're in but the SP, like any organisation, has people who wouldn't be much use in a fight but also does still have some "muscle" - like me - I'm well fucking hard!


 
ho ho! all socialists shd be antifascist surely? the mala-sister was concerned when fash had threatened to attack a meeting and the SP had to cancel cos they couldnt defend it and they wouldnt have anything to do with the local more militant antifascists cos of sectarianism which is silly but all too recognisable from other leftist groups behaviour! the SP seem okay to me tho and the paper is okay (i get mine off her FREE).


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## malatesta32 (May 21, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> SP and CWI are all right where the fash are concerned tbh, imo. I know i am biased cos i am a member and that but it's true imo!! besides i think everyone here knows my opinion of the fash and it's never been a problem for me in the SP.


 
hey frogs! given the current climate with renegade eejits of the EDL, infidullards and NF SP folk shd be wary of not giving the fash an easy victory - like the geezer in sarf london the other week. im not saying do paper sales 'all tooled up' but to be aware of whats going on in certain places - liverpool,  london etc.


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## butchersapron (May 21, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> hey frogs! given the current climate with renegade eejits of the EDL, infidullards and NF SP folk shd be wary of not giving the fash an easy victory - like the geezer in sarf london the other week. im not saying do paper sales 'all tooled up' but to be aware of whats going on in certain places - liverpool, london etc.


This is worse than perry anderson. What is this?


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## malatesta32 (May 21, 2012)

hey butchers! im worried about left wing soft targets after lewisham thing. on reflection, that didnt end well for the fash did it?


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## malatesta32 (May 21, 2012)

now googling 'perry anderson'


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## butchersapron (May 21, 2012)

Is this the rational kernel:



> SP folk shd be wary of not giving the fash an easy victory


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## malatesta32 (May 21, 2012)

logs off perplexed by arcane socialist reference. goes to read ian bones autobiog. and remains disappointed.


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## malatesta32 (May 21, 2012)

hey its late but yes im trying to convey me sisters bother over the meeting threat being capitulated to.


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## SpineyNorman (May 21, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> ho ho! all socialists shd be antifascist surely? the mala-sister was concerned when fash had threatened to attack a meeting and the SP had to cancel cos they couldnt defend it and they wouldnt have anything to do with the local more militant antifascists cos of sectarianism which is silly but all too recognisable from other leftist groups behaviour! the SP seem okay to me tho and the paper is okay (i get mine off her FREE).


 
Of course the SP are antifascist, it's impossible to be a socialist and not be antifascist. But it's not _specifically  _antifascist - it's a political party. And the analysis is that the only way to defeat the fascists is to build an alternative. With a few possible exceptions I don't think physical force antifascism is the way to go at the minute - I agree with the IWCA on this one. I don't think they should have cancelled the meeting though. I reckon if they'd rung around they'd have got enough people - SP members from elsewhere if necessary - to defend the meeting. Definitely not a good idea to let them dictate what you can and can't do, gives the buggers confidence.


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## butchersapron (May 21, 2012)

Don't get beaten up by fascists folks.

I look forward to the book.


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## malatesta32 (May 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Of course the SP are antifascist, it's impossible to be a socialist and not be antifascist. But it's not _specifically _antifascist - it's a political party. And the analysis is that the only way to defeat the fascists is to build an alternative. With a few possible exceptions I don't think physical force antifascism is the way to go at the minute - I agree with the IWCA on this one. I don't think they should have cancelled the meeting though. I reckon if they'd rung around they'd have got enough people - SP members from elsewhere if necessary - to defend the meeting. Definitely not a good idea to let them dictate what you can and can't do, gives the buggers confidence.


 
i know i was teasing! disagree on physical force - look at liverpool, brighton etc. physical force is only 1 part of an overall broad antifascism - non partisan and by whatever ways folk feel is appropriate given the situation. they cancelled cos they couldnt protect their members which was a bit rubbish. mind you, dont want our wee lass getting hassle.


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## Red Storm (May 21, 2012)

SP in Manchester have never (since 2006) done any anti-fascist stuff really. 

I never really knew their position on it when I was in re: physicality and generally.


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## frogwoman (May 22, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> SP in Manchester have never (since 2006) done any anti-fascist stuff really.
> 
> I never really knew their position on it when I was in re: physicality and generally.


 
there are different views on it i think within the party and not everyone on the party would have one view regarding physical force anti-fascism. i have my view (that it's often necessary, although i'm not sure about at the moment in britain) and other people have theirs. I can't remember the last time it was discussed tbh, think people are sympathetic though, especially in a situation where the fash are a major physical threat i think they have used it in other countries and it's been successful as a strategy. Although probably not everyone, but I actually think it's healthy the way that the SP accommodate very different views. 

i've always been quite open about my views about the fash and it's never been a problem with me in the SP.


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## danny la rouge (May 22, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Full marks !


Missed opportunity.


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## Jean-Luc (May 22, 2012)

danny la rouge said:


> Missed opportunity.


Probably but I thought everybody would realise that "socialism" and "communism" were just alternative ways of referring to a society based on common ownership and democratic control of the means of production by society (hence "socialism") or the community (hence "communism"). You're right, some here didn't get it. Of course the so-called "communist countries" weren't communist.


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## danny la rouge (May 22, 2012)

No, I was just pointing out something more punny.


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## Jean-Luc (May 22, 2012)

danny la rouge said:


> No, I was just pointing out something more punny.


Sorry, now it's me being slow on the uptake. Marx too thought that socialism and communism were the same (even if Lenin and Trotsky didn't).


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## butchersapron (May 22, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Sorry, now it's me being slow on the uptake. Marx too thought that socialism and communism were the same (even if Lenin and Trotsky didn't).


He's laughing at MARKS FFS! 

(and he didn't always think or argue that did he - he at least twice argued the exact opposite - as if it matters)


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## danny la rouge (May 22, 2012)




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## Jean-Luc (May 22, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> (and he didn't always think or argue that did he - he at least twice argued the exact opposite - as if it matters)


Agreed it doesn't matter what Marx thought but, as a matter of historical accuracy, this bloke doesn't think he ever did argue the opposite (skip to page 3). What does matter is what people think is the alternative to capitalism, whatever they call it. I don't think an economy based on the State ownership of "the top 150 companies and banks that dominate the British economy" is. That sounds like state capitalism to me.


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## butchersapron (May 22, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Agreed it doesn't matter what Marx thought but, as a matter of historical accuracy, this bloke doesn't think he ever did argue the opposite (skip to page 3). What does matter is what people think is the alternative to capitalism, whatever they call it. I don't think an economy based on the State ownership of "the top 150 companies and banks that dominate the British economy" is. That sounds like state capitalism to me.


Paresh doesn't (in that article) go near Marks' own delineation of two post-revolutionary phases of first, socialism wherein bourgeois norms of distribution are still in place then, communism when they are not. Correct though the general article and most of what he writes is.

Just look jon, _all this could be yours one day..._


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## Nigel (May 22, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Yo, need some political advice...
> 
> Around 2006, I decided I wanted to "help make a difference" to the world. Randomly, I met the local anarchist group in my town and they were happy to involve me, despite me saying openly that I wasn't really sure about where my politics stood.
> 
> ...


 
Getting involved with The Socialist Party (CWI) is probably the best thing politically you'll do in your life!


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## articul8 (May 22, 2012)

Nigel said:


> Getting involved with The Socialist Party (CWI) is probably the best thing politically you'll do in your life!


You should know - you've been in and out of most


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## Louis MacNeice (May 23, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> Full marks !


 
Not according to Marx's _Critique of the Gotha Programme._

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## butchersapron (May 23, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Not according to Marx's _Critique of the Gotha Programme._
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Which he, geniusly, quoted in another thread this afternoon.


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## Nigel (May 27, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> In the Socialist Party?
> 
> No question about it mate . That is their position and will be your position.
> 
> You are not going to go far with them if you don't accept that 1917 is where it was all at and will be! They are Trots and you will have to learn their line.


 
That's not necessarily true. There are definitely of people within the SP who are critical of this perspective, but the underlining position that the Russian Revolution was the first workers' revolution, the bolshevik party  on the whole made the right decision to push for revolutionary socialism against the constituent assembly, support for Trotsky's initiative & 4th Internationals opposition to Stalinism and the Transitional Programme seem to be accepted consensus with members & supporters within and around Socialist Party England & Wales.


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## Brainaddict (May 27, 2012)

Nigel said:


> That's not necessarily true. There are definitely of people within the SP who are critical of this perspective, but the underlining position that the Russian Revolution was the first workers' revolution, the bolshevik party on the whole made the right decision to push for revolutionary socialism against the constituent assembly, support for Trotsky's initiative & 4th Internationals opposition to Stalinism and the Transitional Programme seem to be accepted consensus with members & supporters within and around Socialist Party England & Wales.


Hahaha, hilarious stuff. Here is a photograph of 60 million people not giving a fuck


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## Jean-Luc (May 27, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Not according to Marx's _Critique of the Gotha Programme._ Cheers - Louis MacNeice


I can't find any distinction in my copy of this between a  "socialist society" and a different "communist society", only references to two phases of the same, communist society as a "co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production". Does yours say something different?


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## Nigel (May 30, 2012)

To Jean-Luc
Are you still involved withthe Socialist Party or did you have any problems?


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## Jon-of-arc (May 30, 2012)

Ok, going to an SP meeting tomorrow. Apparently the main focus will be the greek crisis. 

What opinions will they have? I need to know so I can plan in advance my own contrary position...

Also, why are they bothering to discuss this issue? Is it just a big debating club, or are they likely to plan a response? What sort of response could be seriously worthwhile?


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## discokermit (May 31, 2012)

will jon accept the transitional programme? or will his state cap talk get him thrown out as an undercover swappie? will he turn up wearing "corduroy pants and a trick moustache"?

find out in fridays episode...


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## Nylock (May 31, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Paresh doesn't (in that article) go near Marks' own delineation of two post-revolutionary phases of first, socialism wherein bourgeois norms of distribution are still in place then, communism when they are not. Correct though the general article and most of what he writes is.
> 
> *Just look jon, all this could be yours one day...*


The bolded bit genuinely made me laugh out loud


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## Nigel (May 31, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Ok, going to an SP meeting tomorrow. Apparently the main focus will be the greek crisis.
> 
> What opinions will they have? I need to know so I can plan in advance my own contrary position...
> 
> Also, why are they bothering to discuss this issue? Is it just a big debating club, or are they likely to plan a response? What sort of response could be seriously worthwhile?


 Considering the effect it will have on the Euro zone and defacto British Economy & intensifying international recession its pretty relevent as far as I can see.
Seems to be a lot of criticism of Communists and lack of initiative and balls within coalition government and the necessity for a better initiative to show leadership.
Talk of revolutionary experience spreading to other areas and/or countries.
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5781


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## frogwoman (May 31, 2012)

It's useful to discuss, informative, even if you dont agree with everything said (and i often don't) it helps you to be more confident in expressing your ideas and a lot of people in the SP are very knowledgeable (and i'm sure you've got your own areas where you're knowledgeable about as well). There's no harm about being educated about something or using the discussions to research it yourself afterwards even if you come to different conclusions even if it's not directly relevant to something.


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## Captain Hurrah (May 31, 2012)

How did you get to be a member froggy?


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## frogwoman (May 31, 2012)

i applied to join through the website iirc, started going to meetings in 2009 briefly, and also harassed dennis a few times.


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## SpineyNorman (May 31, 2012)

I'd say the Greek situation is pretty relevant tbh. What happens there will affect what happens here, there's no doubt about that, and if the speaker's any good they'll explain how and why.

It's a meeting that I'd expect most SP branches are having or have had, since gives the opportunity to talk about Syriza as an example of what a "new workers party" can do.


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## Random (May 31, 2012)

Syriza is a loose collection of allsorts, about as far from a bolshevik-inspired democratic centralist party as one can imagine.


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## dennisr (May 31, 2012)

Random said:


> Syriza is a loose collection of allsorts, about as far from a bolshevik-inspired democratic centralist party as one can imagine.


 
It is. It is also exactly the sort of rapidly developing coalition of various shades of working class opinion that bolsheviks would be sensible to work with - either alongside or as part of - as would the potential development of a new workers party in the UK.


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## Random (May 31, 2012)

But what can bolshevik methods bring to something like Syriza? From a casual look, it seems like the party has thrived because it's managed to seem more relevant than the traditional Communists. Of course, I also think that Syriza is only left-seeming because European politics is so far to the right now. They're basically a party that takes social democracy seriously. Given some power, and some serious establishment opposition they could either become radicalised, or just as easily fall apart or become assimilated.


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## dennisr (May 31, 2012)

Random said:


> They're basically a party that takes social democracy seriously. Given some power, and some serious establishment opposition they could either become radicalised, or just as easily fall apart or become assimilated.


 
Indeed - given they are on a collision course with their own ruling strata as well as the weight of the EU and Germany - some bolshie methods (although I am guessing we re talking about different assumptions about what those methods may be?) may well prove a sensible option to take on board if they are not to be either assimulated or crushed


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## Random (May 31, 2012)

dennisr said:


> some bolshie methods (although I am guessing we re talking about different assumptions about what those methods may be?) may well prove a sensible option to take on board if they are not to be either assimulated or crushed


 Which methods do you mean, then? I think properly supporting strikes, occupations and assemblies is key, of course, but I'd say those are general left socialist/anarchist methods rather than specifically bolshevik.


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## mk12 (May 31, 2012)

The SP meetings I attended were not necessarily fun or interesting, but they were attended by your more "average" persons.


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## articul8 (May 31, 2012)

mk12 said:


> The SP meetings I attended were not necessarily fun


what were you expecting


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## N_igma (May 31, 2012)

My mate is in them and tried to get me to join. Told him to sliiiiiiddddde on.


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## kenny g (May 31, 2012)

Yep. The SPEW do seem to have some generally normalish types rattling around talking about the need for a General Strike Now! and so forth. Not my cup of tea at all but if you want to find yourself going down the Trotskyist dead end you could be in worse company. I could almost imagine myself sharing some kind of reasonable conversation on an ad-hoc basis with some SPEW members I have met, whilst most peeps I have come across in the SWP, including former mates, are lost causes to normal social, let alone socialist, interaction.

Have you considered attending an SPGB meeting? They can be very enlightening if you want to hear about REAL Socialism. There is no pressure to join. In fact you have to pass a test before your membership would be considered!


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## Jean-Luc (Jun 1, 2012)

Nigel said:


> To Jean-Luc Are you still involved withthe Socialist Party or did you have any problems?


I think you mean Jon d'Arc.

Like everyone else here I'm eagerly awaiting his report on his visit this evening to his local Militant Tendency branch. I don't agree with those who say the situation in Greece is not worth discussing. Of course it is, but I imagine Jon will be told that the way out is "Tax the Rich" or "Make the Bosses Pay" or even "Nationalise the Top Hundred Companies".


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## SpineyNorman (Jun 1, 2012)

Yeah, far better to get rid of money and let magic do the rest.


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## kenny g (Jun 1, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yeah, far better to get rid of money and let magic do the rest.


 
Although he is a great basketball player I think that is asking a bit much. Would you nationalise him as well?.


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## Jean-Luc (Jun 1, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yeah, far better to get rid of money and let magic do the rest.


Sounds like a great idea but, being realistic, which money do you think they should go for: the euro or the drachma?


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## Jon-of-arc (Jun 1, 2012)

I have to report? Not much to say, really. Was sort of interesting (in the sense of not being that interesting at all...). I learned a little about the rise of the far left in greece, and the blokey made a good case for socialism being the only way for the greek working class to fight the current attacks on their livelyhoods. He tried and, imo, failed to explain how the support of the rest of the european working class are essential to the success of the greek socialist movement.

It wasnt a totally pointless night, and I will go again. But if it carries on being just a talking shop/debate club for a self selected few, I may have to reassess how/where I am best to expend my (limited) political energies.

I want to make a difference to people in my community, not spend an evening a week hearing the converted being preached to.

They did say there is some activism that goes on, so ill try and find out more about that.


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## kenny g (Jun 2, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> I want to make a difference to people in my community


 
Loads of ways of doing that that needn't be political in the sense of allied with a political party. You could then devote other energies to realistic politics i.e. ones  that identify the real enemy, are democratically organised, and provide a space to develop alternatives based on the state of the world now rather than in 1917. The two shouldn't be mutually exclusive.


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## SpineyNorman (Jun 2, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> I have to report? Not much to say, really. Was sort of interesting (in the sense of not being that interesting at all...). I learned a little about the rise of the far left in greece, and the blokey made a good case for socialism being the only way for the greek working class to fight the current attacks on their livelyhoods. He tried and, imo, failed to explain how the support of the rest of the european working class are essential to the success of the greek socialist movement.
> 
> It wasnt a totally pointless night, and I will go again. But if it carries on being just a talking shop/debate club for a self selected few, I may have to reassess how/where I am best to expend my (limited) political energies.
> 
> ...


 
Did you stay until the end Jon? Every SP branch meeting I've been to (not just in my branch, I've visited a few others too) has had a "business" after the main talk and the debate where they talk about and arrange activity. I'd be surprised if your local branch didn't also do this. Unless it's a very small branch I'd expect that they do weekend stalls in the city/town centre and they're well worth going on. Sounds shit and typically "trotty" lol but it's pretty important, helps you find out about issues to campaign on - issues people actually care about and will want to support/get involved in campaigns on. I'd also expect that they've got some kind of specific anti-cuts campaign going on. For example we're in the process of starting a campaign to save a surestart centre. Might be worth asking one of the more experienced members about this (maybe find out who the branch secretary is and ask him or her). I'm sure they'd be able to satisfy your appetite for political activity, in my experience there's usually way too much activity that needs doing and not enough people to do it all, not the other way around.


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