# "Games Journalism"



## Crispy (Oct 26, 2012)

Anybody who reads gaming blogs and forums can't have escaped noticing this story. Here's a good summary: http://wosland.podgamer.com/the-wainwright-profile/

And here's a good opinion piece from Rock Paper Shotgun's John Walker (one of the very few People Who Write About Games whom I trust): http://botherer.org/2012/10/24/games-journalists-and-the-perception-of-corruption/

It's been obvious for a long time that the vast majority of the gaming press is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the publishers' PR teams. It does the artform absolutely no favours, as it keeps a tight lid on what is and isn't deemed "important". Gaming is not going to grow out of its adolescent image without a professional body of critics. Hopefully, this sort of story is a small step on the way to that.


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## tommers (Oct 26, 2012)

Yeah, I was going to put something up about that yesterday.

Lots of gaming journalists take themselves way too seriously and see themselves as "writers" - with all that entails.  They're not, and most of them aren't journalists either.  Cranking out 1,000 words about a game that make sense and read well doesn't make you some kind of literary genius - but lots of them seem to think it does.

I like Robert Florence - he did some really good Dark Souls stuff.  I like RPS (despite them having huge adverts all over their site and the conflict that implies).  The rest of em are just a bunch of shills.  They also don't like being told they're wrong.

There are lots of rumours and counter rumours flying around about this though.  And it does always seem to be the women who get the brunt of it.


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## Crispy (Oct 26, 2012)

tommers said:


> And it does always seem to be the women who get the brunt of it.


Another very depressing facet of the business


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## kabbes (Oct 26, 2012)

Games journalism is, on the whole, the pits.  There's a feeding cycle between the advertisers and the reviews of the advertisers' products that would be seen as simply unacceptable in pretty much any other industry.

There are a handful of opinion writers that I like and find interesting.  The rest I wouldn't touch with yours.

And it's about time that reviewers started putting their own name to reviews, so that we can start to build up a view of who is and isn't trustworthy, or even has similar tastes to us.  Even Edge, who are so good in so many ways, still insist on this ridiculous "house view" approach that helps precisely nobody.


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## temper_tantrum (Oct 26, 2012)

Someone mentioned this to me yesterday. I was going to have a look at it all. Cheers for the reminder.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 26, 2012)

tommers said:


> There are lots of rumours and counter rumours flying around about this though. And it does always seem to be the women who get the brunt of it.


 
As a slight tangent, that's reminded me to see what Aleks Krotoski is up to. It seems got back into gaming this year.

http://alekskrotoski.com/post/bbc-world-service-the-culture-of-gaming-this-saturday


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## kabbes (Oct 26, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> As a slight tangent, that's reminded me to see what Aleks Krotoski is up to. It seems got back into gaming this year.
> 
> http://alekskrotoski.com/post/bbc-world-service-the-culture-of-gaming-this-saturday






			
				Aleks said:
			
		

> This weekend I return to the topic that I cut my journalistic teeth on: computer gaming. After five years actively avoiding the subject all together – *having burned out on the networking events that happened in strip clubs and the offensive press releases that landed in my inbox* – I’m on a mission to find out whether the computer games culture has evolved in that time into something that celebrates and respects its artform and influence.


Sadly, I suspect she is going to be disappointed.


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## tommers (Oct 26, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Another very depressing facet of the business


 
Yeah.  There's a Walker blog post where her boss says in the comments that there wasn't any legal action, or any threat of it - and that she was just asking for an apology.  There are rumours that Florence walked, and rumours he was sacked.  It's not as clear as it first seems exactly what happened.

There were also 6 people who got free stuff, and god knows how many people actually tweeted the offensive hashtag.

In fact, that's probably the bigger story - that this is so widespread and accepted that all these "journalists" didn't even see anything wrong with it.

I've written some stuff for a website, to practice, for a laugh and to get free games.  Outside of the top sites that's what people do it for, and I'm sure the loot that the top sites get buttered up with is just seen as a perk of the job.  There is a definite conflict there though.  The only way they can be really independent is to not accept review copies, not have adverts, not get free merchandise etc etc.  And what website can exist without advertising?


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## Fez909 (Oct 26, 2012)

Sounds like the gaming magazines are now exactly where the music and film magazines are at.  Most music and film reviews are shite and with a few notable exceptions, you should take them with a pinch of salt.

Can't see much changing here.

Carry on reading John Walker, ignore/refute reviews from others when appropriate.  That's all you can do.


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## tommers (Oct 26, 2012)

Well, just don't take any of it seriously, and be aware that the "major" releases are going to have been buttering up the reviewers for at least 6 months previous. 

Warfighter must be absolute garbage.


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## Garek (Oct 26, 2012)

The move to online has also in some ways not helped. New game comes out and sites are absolutely torn into for not giving it the score gamers want. If it gets a 10 they are "corrupt", if it gets an 8 they are "trying to cause controversy to get the hits". A lot of reviews seem to be used more for validating someone's purchasing decision than for them to make an honest judgement. 

Obviously not saying that being able to read stuff online is bad, but it has introduced a huge number of problems that are not being dealt with.


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## kabbes (Oct 26, 2012)

Garek said:


> The move to online has also in some ways not helped. New game comes out and sites are absolutely torn into for not giving it the score gamers want. If it gets a 10 they are "corrupt", if it gets an 8 they are "trying to cause controversy to get the hits". A lot of reviews seem to be used more for validating someone's purchasing decision than for them to make an honest judgement.
> 
> Obviously not saying that being able to read stuff online is bad, but it has introduced a huge number of problems that are not being dealt with.


It gets worse with the fact that remuneration is often now linked to metacritic score.  If you don't get at least an 85, you're in trouble.  Cue significant pressure on reviewers to score >85.


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## tommers (Oct 26, 2012)

kabbes said:


> It gets worse with the fact that remuneration is often now linked to metacritic score. If you don't get at least an 85, you're in trouble. Cue significant pressure on reviewers to score >85.


 
What do you mean?  For developers?


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## kabbes (Oct 26, 2012)

tommers said:


> What do you mean? For developers?


Yes, a lot of developers get bonuses based on metacritic score, ever since somebody noticed that there are virtually no blockbusters that scored under 85.


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## Crispy (Oct 26, 2012)

Garek said:


> The move to online has also in some ways not helped.


Not only in the way you mention, but also by the overpowering power of the advertisers. At least with print, there was sales revenue as well.


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## mauvais (Oct 26, 2012)

kabbes said:


> Games journalism is, on the whole, the pits. There's a feeding cycle between the advertisers and the reviews of the advertisers' products that would be seen as simply unacceptable in pretty much any other industry.
> 
> There are a handful of opinion writers that I like and find interesting. The rest I wouldn't touch with yours.


Ditto car magazines, frankly. Hello, 'What Car?' - a Volkswagen Golf again, is it?


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## Firky (Oct 26, 2012)

It's why I don't bother with game review websites and prefer to use forums such as this one.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 26, 2012)

Tech "journalism" generally is a disgrace. I don't think games writing is any worse, and in fact may be better overall - at least the fact that the subject is often considered trivial means that a few writers will attempt to go a bit deeper, whereas reflexive witterings about fucking Apple press releases and fucking Android press releases are often considered as being worth more than a punch in the face.

Aleks Krotoski does some really good stuff these days by the way.


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## Maurice Picarda (Oct 26, 2012)

Most b2b spaces are far, far more compromised than games journalism, if those sanctimonious pieces are anything to go by. Anyway, why should the interests of consumers be paramount? The buggers don't even pay for journalism half the time. Fuck 'em.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 26, 2012)

Half the time? More than half the time I feel I should be compensated for reading that shit.


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## editor (Oct 26, 2012)

Crispy said:


> It's been obvious for a long time that the vast majority of the gaming press is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the publishers' PR teams. It does the artform absolutely no favours, as it keeps a tight lid on what is and isn't deemed "important".


It's very similar in parts of the tech press too. I made a decision to only ever write about things I found interesting and to only ever state my honest opinion, something which no doubt will restrict the traffic to Wirefresh.

One of the dodgiest features on on tech sites - and I expect, gaming sites - is the scourge of the 'guest writer'.

Here's my rant about them here: http://www.wirefresh.com/wirefresh-tech-blogs-and-the-curse-of-the-dishonest-guest-writers/


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## tommers (Oct 26, 2012)

Robert Florence has had his say. I notice he is now an "RPS" columnist.

never saw that coming.  

http://botherer.org/2012/10/26/guest-post-robert-florence-on-the-last-few-days/


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## Dandred (Oct 26, 2012)

Follow the company or get out.....

Zero punctuation is the only way forward.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 26, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Anybody who reads gaming blogs and forums can't have escaped noticing this story. Here's a good summary: http://wosland.podgamer.com/the-wainwright-profile/
> 
> And here's a good opinion piece from Rock Paper Shotgun's John Walker (one of the very few People Who Write About Games whom I trust): http://botherer.org/2012/10/24/games-journalists-and-the-perception-of-corruption/
> 
> It's been obvious for a long time that the vast majority of the gaming press is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the publishers' PR teams. It does the artform absolutely no favours, as it keeps a tight lid on what is and isn't deemed "important". Gaming is not going to grow out of its adolescent image without a professional body of critics. Hopefully, this sort of story is a small step on the way to that.


 
Think Edge did a piece about this about ten years ago, can't see this changing as the mainstream media isn't exactly a bastion of independent journalism...


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## Crispy (Oct 26, 2012)

tommers said:


> Robert Florence has had his say. I notice he is now an "RPS" columnist.
> 
> never saw that coming.
> 
> http://botherer.org/2012/10/26/guest-post-robert-florence-on-the-last-few-days/


I like RPS

And Rab's got my vote too. Very well put there.


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## tommers (Oct 26, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I like RPS
> 
> And Rab's got my vote too. Very well put there.


 
Yeah, so do I.  It was just blatant what would happen as soon as he walked.


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## XR75 (Oct 27, 2012)

Apparently a few weeks ago another writer had come out with the same sorts of accusations on the industry.
http://www.vg247.com/forum/topic.php?id=6642


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 27, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Tech "journalism" generally is a disgrace.


 
Most authors don't even know the difference between "I" and "we".


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## Dandred (Oct 27, 2012)

I only trust zero punctuation


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## temper_tantrum (Oct 27, 2012)

Nobody comes out of this looking good, thh.


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## Random (Nov 1, 2012)

Florence made a good point on Twitter- someone asked him how reviewers will be able to get hold of advance copies of the games, and RF just said "get used to late reviews". I'd rather have an honest review from someone writing from the viewpoint of a game buyer like me, than something shaped by layers upon layers of pre-publicity.

Gamers average age is getting older; I think we're mature enough to now sustain some grownup journalism.


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## Crispy (Nov 1, 2012)

Random said:


> Gamers average age is getting older; I think we're mature enough to now sustain some grownup journalism.


We should pay for it, really.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 1, 2012)

Wouldn't hold my breath on either point tbb...journalism doesn't exist in a vacuum so why would video game journalism be any better than wider media journalism?


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## temper_tantrum (Nov 1, 2012)

There's a difference between games journalism and games writing. John Walker doesn't accept that (iirc), but IMO, a large part of what passes for games journalism isn't. You can say the same of most consumer media specialisms, of course. 
Nowt wrong with entertainment writing btw. But it is a different thing to games journalism. From what I've seen of the lady who threatened to sue RF, she's on the entertainment writing side of things. People berating her for 'betraying journalistic principles' kinda miss the point.


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## Crispy (Nov 1, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Wouldn't hold my breath on either point tbb...journalism doesn't exist in a vacuum so why would video game journalism be any better than wider media journalism?


The gaming press suffers from a particularly cozy relationship between writers and PR. Other forms of entertainment don't have the same drip-drip of carefully managed previews etc. leading up to release, at which point the same writers who've been buttered up for months get to write the reviews. There's no hard line between "news" "previews" "interviews" and "reviews". There are barely any "video game critics" in the same sense that we have for music, film, books, theatre etc. Who is gaming's Roger Ebert?


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## Random (Nov 1, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Wouldn't hold my breath on either point tbb...journalism doesn't exist in a vacuum so why would video game journalism be any better than wider media journalism?


 Currently mainstream computer game journalism is far worse than mainstream film reviews, as far as I can see. The fanboy approach is dominating and there's zero grounding in critical thinking of the like that film studies provides. Computer games, as an artform, are evolving; i think it's reasonable to expect that the writing will also change. Simply the fact that people like Florence, and RPS exist is a move in a good direction.


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## mwgdrwg (Nov 1, 2012)

Is Florence that mad Scotsman that did the Indie Games videos for Xbox?


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## Metal Malcolm (Nov 1, 2012)

mwgdrwg said:


> Is Florence that mad Scotsman that did the Indie Games videos for Xbox?


 
Yup, that's him. See also - Consolevania, Burnistoun, writing for Still Game and Frankie Boyle etc


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## editor (Nov 1, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> Most authors don't even know the difference between "I" and "we".


Some companies insist on a house style where it's always 'we' and never 'I'. I don't see it as much of an issue - it's the quality of the review that matters most.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 1, 2012)

Crispy said:


> The gaming press suffers from a particularly cozy relationship between writers and PR. Other forms of entertainment don't have the same drip-drip of carefully managed previews etc. leading up to release, at which point the same writers who've been buttered up for months get to write the reviews. There's no hard line between "news" "previews" "interviews" and "reviews". There are barely any "video game critics" in the same sense that we have for music, film, books, theatre etc. Who is gaming's Roger Ebert?



You sure about that? Plenty of pr tip off go on so that celebs are 'accidently' caught at some club etc. Really don't see that games journalism is anyone prone to pr influence tbh.


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## Crispy (Nov 1, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> You sure about that? Plenty of pr tip off go on so that celebs are 'accidently' caught at some club etc. Really don't see that games journalism is anyone prone to pr influence tbh.


The film critics don't write about the celebs falling out of taxis.


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## Random (Nov 1, 2012)

I suppose film criticism benefited somewhat because film grew out of photography, which itself was also on the continuum of fine art. Games have never been considered fine art, and so have never had the status necessary for serious criticism of them to be taken seriously.


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## tommers (Nov 1, 2012)

Maybe that will change in the future?  Or maybe it will split and you'll get your "Hollywood" and "arthouse" games (which seems to be the case already)


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 1, 2012)

Crispy said:


> The film critics don't write about the celebs falling out of taxis.



But they do get wined and dined and get access to stars and previews amongst other things. Really think you're setting yourself up for big disappointment if you really think games journalism will ever be better than general journalism.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 1, 2012)

Random said:


> I suppose film criticism benefited somewhat because film grew out of photography, which itself was also on the continuum of fine art. Games have never been considered fine art, and so have never had the status necessary for serious criticism of them to be taken seriously.



Read Empire and tell me that's quality journalism! The amount of shit films that have got great reviews over the years is shocking.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2012)

There's a huge amount of shoddy film "journalism" and a massive PR roundabout involved, but it's still better than with games - at least there are a number of respected high profile film reviewers who properly analyse and report on the quality of films, in the context of an existing body of work in the medium. There's not a lot of that with games - and, sure, there are lots of games which are just routine genre pieces and don't say anything new anyway, but there are also plenty of films like that.


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## Crispy (Nov 1, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Read Empire and tell me that's quality journalism!


I don't and I wouldn't!


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 1, 2012)

Obviously there are lots of shit films just as there are lots of shit games. Are there any great games like there are great films though, in the artistic sense? I don't think so personally - there are games with elements of that but they're not there yet IMO (of course I might just not have played them).


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Obviously there are lots of shit films just as there are lots of shit games. Are there any great games like there are great films though, in the artistic sense? I don't think so personally - there are games with elements of that but they're not there yet IMO (of course I might just not have played them).


Yes, there are - the proportion though? That's arguable. They are also not necessarily great in obvious ways, either - they can't be judged purely on the same criteria as other media. Sometimes a game is great in an easily explicable way that has broad relevance. Sometimes the greatness is more internal to the medium and only makes sense in context.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 1, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yes, there are - the proportion though? That's arguable. They are also not necessarily great in obvious ways, either - they can't be judged purely on the same criteria as other media. Sometimes a game is great in an easily explicable way that has broad relevance. Sometimes the greatness is more internal to the medium and only makes sense in context.


 
Like what? I'm not going down that path of just going 'it's not,' honest, but I can't think of any. I mean in the sense that a critic could tell you something meaningful about them. I can't really think of many - something like Skyrim for example I think is a great game, but I can't see there's a lot of real depth there that you might get in a great film.


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## Crispy (Nov 1, 2012)

I played Journey the other week (finally - not having a PS3 myself) and I would say that it is a Great Game. The mechanics of it are nothing amazing, but the way that the "multiplayer" works is incredible. It evoked genuine personal emotions. Not just empathy with the characters doing something (as in movies) but a direct emotional response as a result of my actions and my interactions with another person. It's something that few other creative media can do: It's Art and deserves proper Critics.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 1, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I played Journey the other week (finally - not having a PS3 myself) and I would say that it is a Great Game. The mechanics of it are nothing amazing, but the way that the "multiplayer" works is incredible. It evoked genuine personal emotions. Not just empathy with the characters doing something (as in movies) but a direct emotional response as a result of my actions and my interactions with another person. It's something that few other creative media can do: It's Art and deserves proper Critics.


 
Right that's what I mean. I can see that potential in games but have never been there - they bring in elements of consequences and things but ultimately it doesn't really matter if you decide to shoot someone in the face for a laugh. So that sounds great. 

I'm not buying a PS3 just for it though.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Like what? I'm not going down that path of just going 'it's not,' honest, but I can't think of any. I mean in the sense that a critic could tell you something meaningful about them. I can't really think of many - something like Skyrim for example I think is a great game, but I can't see there's a lot of real depth there that you might get in a great film.


Here's an example that I use a lot - Bioshock. On the surface, it has a fun satirical theme to it (parodying Objectivism and certain elements of past and present sci fi) which any decent film or literary critic would pick up quickly. And they might say "well this is a nice theme and quite well done but there's nothing great here".

However, what Bioshock does really really well, and what makes it a great game to me, is playing with the concept of agency and motivation, particularly RPGs and first person shooters which it is an example of, in the context of Objectivism's principles of personal responsibility. This is not something you can get unless you appreciate the existing issues around viewer identity and interaction. They don't exist in any other medium - maybe slight hints, but nothing like they do in games and IF.


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## Random (Nov 2, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> But they do get wined and dined and get access to stars and previews amongst other things. Really think you're setting yourself up for big disappointment if you really think games journalism will ever be better than general journalism.


No, I'm just hoping that one day it contains as much good stuff, and that the quality criticism will be as prominent as it is within the film world.


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## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

Shadow of the Colossus is another example I always use. It's all about loneliness, isolation and consequence and it plays with these themes specifically in the context of gaming agency. The exploration of the themes only hits home if you understand how games are usually structured and thus feel viscerally how this game subverts this and uses it to create an emotional response.

In a completely different way but on a similarly agency-centric theme, Dark Souls uses its difficulty level like a knife to say something about repetition and persistence.

Games can say a lot but they rarely do so via story. You have to experience them as an interactive challenge to understand their art.


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## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

kabbes said:


> Shadow of the Colossus is another example I always use. It's all about loneliness, isolation and consequence and it plays with these themes specifically in the context of gaming agency. The exploration of the themes only hits home if you understand how games are usually structured and thus feel viscerally how this game subverts this and uses it to create an emotional response.
> 
> In a completely different way but on a similarly agency-centric theme, Dark Souls uses its difficulty level like a knife to say something about repetition and persistence.
> 
> Games can say a lot but they rarely do so via story. You have to experience them as an interactive challenge to understand their art.


 
Isn't the bit about agency and motivation where games really stand out from other art-forms? Seems to me that most all the titles being hailed as Art revolve around questions of agency (or lack thereof) somehow.


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## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

It's one way, yes. Exploration is another. Have you "played" Proteus?
http://www.visitproteus.com/
or Dear Esther?
http://dear-esther.com/
These aren't really games. There's no challenge, no rules and you're not the protagonist. But they are carefully crafted worlds to explore. Esther has a story, but it's not about you.


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## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Isn't the bit about agency and motivation where games really stand out from other art-forms? Seems to me that most all the titles being hailed as Art revolve around questions of agency (or lack thereof) somehow.


Definitely.  Another great example is Braid.  

Something like Skyrim is a bit like, ooh, Avengers Assemble, maybe?  A great piece of action cinema, beautifully written and directed, but it'll never be the great art of its form.  And that's fine because that's not remotely what it's trying to do.  Great entertainment also has value, but it's of a different ilk.


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## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

What is art, man?  What IS art?

The writing in Dark Souls is brilliant in the way it completely avoids the usual gaming pitfalls (lengthy cutscenes, plot exposition, some NPC just put there to tell you what to do.)  Most of the story is in the item descriptions, and there's a character that you might not even see the first few times you complete the game who tells you that everything you thought was true up to that point is a complete lie.

It also works because it doesn't give a shit about the player.  I got the DLC the other day and had to look up on the internet how to access it.  It's so hidden away that it relies on you doing another pretty obscure thing in order to even give you the option of accessing it.  Most games make you the centre, you're the hero, everything revolves around you - Dark Souls treats you like you're a complete dick.  It doesn't care that you've just spent another tenner - why should it make things easy?  It's the complete anathema of stuff like well.. everything else.

I'm going to shut up now.


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## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

Sands of Time had this quality of agency too. Nobody (to my knowledge, at least) had ever come up with a mechanic that reversed time and thus allowed you to undo your mistakes before. Playing it when it was released created a brand new flow.

I think part of the problem of writing about games is simply that these type of games tap straight into emotion without going via narrative. It's easy to explain why narrative is art, because we can deconstruct what it says and what it means. Something more visceral is harder to pin down. At the same time, it can be a much purer artform for the same reason.


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## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> It's one way, yes. Exploration is another. Have you "played" Proteus?
> http://www.visitproteus.com/
> or Dear Esther?
> http://dear-esther.com/
> These aren't really games. There's no challenge, no rules and you're not the protagonist. But they are carefully crafted worlds to explore. Esther has a story, but it's not about you.


 
To the Moon is similar as well, in that it's a story that you discover through a pretty simple game.  You could see it as an adventure, but it's a story first and foremost.


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## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

If you wander down this topic for too long, you end up asking "is sport art?"


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## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> It's one way, yes. Exploration is another. Have you "played" Proteus?
> http://www.visitproteus.com/
> or Dear Esther?
> http://dear-esther.com/
> These aren't really games. There's no challenge, no rules and you're not the protagonist. But they are carefully crafted worlds to explore. Esther has a story, but it's not about you.


 
Nope, not "played" either. I guess exploration, or dispensing with the action/challenge is another way to create great games, but I keep thinking they get at least part of their otherness from subverting the usual expectations about agency and motivation in games.


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## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> If you wander down this topic for too long, you end up asking "is sport art?"


 
Alan Devonshire was art.  Not much else.


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## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> If you wander down this topic for too long, you end up asking "is sport art?"


 
Why? I'd say no, btw.


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## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

I'm really excited about the Occulus Rift, because that fully immersive experience is going to open up all sorts of new "gaming" experiences. Everything so far has been viewed through a little portal in front of you. You are here, the game is over there. With VR, there is no separation. Even before people figure out what new things can be done with it, it will make Exporation play so much better


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## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Why? I'd say no, btw.


It's interactive. It evokes emotion in the participants.
The rules and systems of a videogame can be tailored to produce an emotional response. Why can't the same thing happen in the physical world?


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## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

How about this for wankiness?  No medium is art and no medium is precluded from art.


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## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Nope, not "played" either. I guess exploration, or dispensing with the action/challenge is another way to create great games, but I keep thinking they get at least part of their otherness from subverting the usual expectations about agency and motivation in games.


 
Isn't that a circular question?  If the normal agency and motivation in games is to run about killing things and being a hero then yes, that's unlikely to serve up anything that could be seen as "art".  So it's necessary to change that, and then you say "oh, but it only happens if you subvert that".

And it comes back to what is art?  Is Doom art?  It's possibly the greatest example of the FPS, elegant, well designed but.... is it?


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## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> It's interactive. It evokes emotion in the participants.
> The rules and systems of a videogame can be tailored to produce an emotional response. Why can't the same thing happen in the physical world?


 
Well, yes, but it doesn't function like art does socially, economically or politically. That's not to say sports cannot be artful. If you define art as anything that provokes an emotional reaction it's getting a bit broad for my liking.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

tommers said:


> Isn't that a circular question? If the normal agency and motivation in games is to run about killing things and being a hero then yes, that's unlikely to serve up anything that could be seen as "art". So it's necessary to change that, and then you say "oh, but it only happens if you subvert that".
> 
> And it comes back to what is art? Is Doom art? It's possibly the greatest example of the FPS, elegant, well designed but.... is it?


 
I think it is, yes, and unavoidably so. What is art? Please God no.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

kabbes said:


> How about this for wankiness? No medium is art and no medium is precluded from art.


 
Stick to your spreadsheets, Data.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Well, yes, but it doesn't function like art does socially, economically or politically. That's not to say sports cannot be artful. If you define art as anything that provokes an emotional reaction it's getting a bit broad for my liking.


I'm playing devil's advocate, exactly to get up to that wobbly edge of the definition of "art"


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

We're in danger of disappearing down the rabbit hole.

And when I say "down the rabbit hole" I mean "up our own arses."


----------



## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

Art is what we say it is.  Art is what its creator says it is.

Art is.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

tommers said:


> We're in danger of disappearing down the rabbit hole.
> 
> And when I say "down the rabbit hole" I mean "up our own arses."


Maybe we should get jobs as critics


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

kabbes said:


> Art is what we say it is. Art is what its creator says it is.
> 
> Art is.


 
Love it.  I'm going to put that on my wall.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

I could go on like this all day.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

I guess one reason Game Critique is relatively weak is due to the newness of the medium. We've had less than 40 years of games, and maybe only about 25-30 of games that go beyond the basics.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

kabbes said:


> Art is what we say it is. Art is what its creator says it is.
> 
> Art is.


 
I say it isn't.


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

Look!  I asked the great god internet.




			
				Our Lord and Master said:
			
		

> *art/ärt/*
> 
> 
> Noun:
> ...




If that ain't games then I don't know what is.  Boom.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Maybe we should get jobs as critics


 
But no-one employs critics to wank on about video games as art.


Just to loop the thread right back to the beginning.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

Cinema took about 40 years to settle down into the medium we recognise today, too.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

There's some scholarly work out there on games as, if not art, then at least something more than interactive telly. Not that much of that pops up in games journalism.


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> I guess one reason Game Critique is relatively weak is due to the newness of the medium. We've had less than 40 years of games, and maybe only about 25-30 of games that go beyond the basics.


 
There is good stuff out there, it's just difficult to find under a sea of shitty "OMG, HALO IS AMAZING!!!111!1" bollocks, written by kids who are doing their dream job for nothing and (to get back to the point of the thread) being told what to write by publisher PR depts.

http://calitreview.com/22567


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Cinema took about 40 years to settle down into the medium we recognise today, too.


 
True, but it was recognised as art sooner than that. As soon as we hit German expressionism that's cinema as art.


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

Well, I think the more emotionally engaging games are starting to come along now. As I said earlier in the thread things seems to be splitting - you've got your "Hollywood" stuff (like CoD, Skyrim, Halo or whatever) and you've got more "arthouse" stuff (like the things we've already mentioned.) This has come about because of dissatisfaction with what's on offer, and it's a lot easier for people to write and self-publish their own games but maybe it's also a sign of the medium "maturing".

Maybe this journalism stuff is also a sign of that, maybe things will be different in the future and you'll still have your IGN, and Kotaku and whatever but a load of independent review sites will also start up which try to keep away from all that hyperbole. Who knows?


----------



## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

I certainly hope so


----------



## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

There are some great books about games.  Read Trigger Happy by Stephen Poole, or The Cybergypsies by Indra Sinha.  (I think I particularly like the second one because it centres around an 80s/90s MUD that I was into, mind).


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

I've actually been turning over an idea in my head since all this happened to start up a blog for reviews written by gamers for other gamers as a kind of co-operative.... obviously no money will be changing hands and no free games - but a service for other people to get honest reviews of things free of the suspicion of goodies and trips and all the rest of it....  People would have to accept that the reviews would come after the main sites, and it would depend on what the writers wanted to talk about but we could maybe have a "what review would you like next" feature and get games from lovefilm or something to avoid too much expenditure...

I'm thinking about it anyway.  Would any of you be interested?  I think we could get some good stuff together.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

There are a million gaming blogs already. What's going to make this one different?


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## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

Quality?


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> There are a million gaming blogs already. What's going to make this one different?


 
That's a good question.  I don't know is the short answer, but I think there's something in it being a repository for the opinions of other people who have played stuff.  When I read about this journalism thing I see a lot of people saying "I don't read reviews any more, cos I know they're all paid for, so I read what other people say about the game".  Maybe it'd be nice to have somewhere where those can be found easily, and where they are of a reasonable quality, or there's something a bit deeper than "look what's out now, win a Gran Turismo steering wheel!"

I mean, we're all sat here bemoaning the paucity of decent "game critique" (!) when it's not actually that difficult to set something up to try and address that.

Like I said, it's just something I've been turning over in my head, I haven't thought it all through by any means.


----------



## Random (Nov 2, 2012)

tommers said:


> That's a good question.  I don't know is the short answer, but I think there's something in it being a repository for the opinions of other people who have played stuff.


  I agree that's a good idea, but it needs to have something else, a hard angle that makes it recognisable. A selling point. Let's pick one particular aspect of gaming that interests us and then let's go for it. I'm well up for it. 

And another reason to narrow the website down: it'll make it far easier to write reviews that are focused, instead of having to cover all aspects of a game.


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

Hmm... then  it's something that hasn't already been done I guess.  I think that there is currently an appetite for impartial, uncorrupted games stuff - and that might give us the kick off it would need.  Different games genres are already covered, retro stuff is well covered...

what are we complaining about?  That there's nothing that treats games as a serious medium?  Or just that most games writers now are in the pocket of PR companies?  What do we think is missing when we want to find out about games?

I had the idea before of setting something up where people can contact you about any game that they are developing.  Anything at all and we would cover it - in the hope that you'd come across some hidden gem and find something that's different, or give people who are struggling some much needed publicity.  It's easy to get in touch with smaller developers, they're all on twitter and they're a lot simpler to deal with than some big PR company.

Thing is, that's kind of already done and you also need some quality control or it's a mess.


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

Or maybe we should ask - what is it that interests you and you want to write about?  Cos it's going to be effing dull otherwise.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

I'll warble some pseudointellectual shite for the princely sum of no pounds but an smidgeon of internet fame.


----------



## Random (Nov 2, 2012)

tommers said:


> what are we complaining about?  That there's nothing that treats games as a serious medium?  Or just that most games writers now are in the pocket of PR companies?  What do we think is missing when we want to find out about games?


 What I'm missing is an adult approach, something that treats me as someone who's going to buy few games, and play them slowly, and who wants to squeeze as much juice out of them as possible. I looked at Gamers With Jobs for a while, but they're still too close to the mould of industry game-journalism for me; and maybe also far too irritatingly perky and American: http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/userguide


----------



## Random (Nov 2, 2012)

Things I think about while playing games: games as historical simulators, where are that realism gaps. And the way games function/fail to function as reality simulators.


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

Well, then maybe we should give it till tonight and then start a super secret private conversation in order to finalise our plans for domination of the world's electronic digital media?


*demonic laugh*


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

Random said:


> Things I think about while playing games: games as historical simulators, where are that realism gaps. And the way games function/fail to function as reality simulators.


 
I would read that.

Maybe you're right, maybe it should be something aimed at adults - games that are interesting or do something different or have a new way of doing it - not just all the new big blockbusters.  Stuff that makes you think or elicits an emotional response.  We could be proper snooty about it. 

Like a haven?  Somewhere to retire to, away from the madding crowd.

Do you know the Halo 4 single player campaign is 8 hours long by the way?  8 chuffing hours!!!  9.5/10.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

I don't think you/we should bother with trying to keep up with what's new.  That's already covered by so many sources, and they have access to up-to-the-minute everything.

I think comment is more interesting than news.  Opinion, analysis, that kind of thing.  The best part of Edge has always been their retrospectives.  I'd rather read 500 words about what _precisely_ made Bayonetta better than Devil May Cry than 500 words about why the latest FPS is awesome, man.


----------



## Random (Nov 2, 2012)

Yes, we should absolutely abandon the new releases cycle. Lots of games deserve to be slowly chewed over and analysed from different angles. Many games are very repayable, people spend scores of hours in the game experience. There's a real need for writing that takes this seriously and goes just as deep into a game. 

Plus we need to get Revol68 onboard for the rapid-fire sweary put downs and embarassingly self-revelatory sexual-poetic insights.


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

Yeah, definitely.  You/we can't compete with that, no point trying.


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

Rev could have his own weekly column.


----------



## Random (Nov 2, 2012)

Another thing I'm interested in is game politics. I think politically pretty much all the time, and wonder what I take away from a game, in terms of world view. For example the nationalism vs imperialism in Skyrim. There was a 94-page thread on the Bethesda forum about the Stormcloaks, and people were putting across very familiar arguments about why the Nords were justified in settling the Dark Elves in a ghetto. This links up with my other point; the way that a game elicits a realistic response, and causes players who agree with racism to come out with realistic justifications....


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

I think this is going to be fun!


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

Well, if you take as a starting point the fact that gaming is a white m/c male domain par excellence and try to look at how that influences game design and production, well that could be interesting.


----------



## Random (Nov 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Well, if you take as a starting point the fact that gaming is a white m/c male domain par excellence and try to look at how that influences game design and production, well that could be interesting.


And the tensions that this creates. Maybe one reason that games criticism is so poor compared to film writing is that gaming started out as a niche interest and has only just become mainstream, while films from their birth were mass entertainment?


----------



## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

Gaming has high barriers to entry. Watching a movie or looking at a painting or reading a book costs very little and require only basic skills that everybody already has. To fully enjoy a Great Game, you need to have spent hundreds of pounds on specialised equipment and taught yourself a full set of novel motor skills.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Gaming has high barriers to entry. Watching a movie or looking at a painting or reading a book cost very little and require only basic skills that everybody already has. To fully enjoy a Great Game, you need to have spent hundreds of pounds on specialised equipment and taught yourself a full set of novel motor skills.


Not to mention have dozens of hours of solitary time available to dedicate to it.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

OTOH table-top gaming is cheap too yet overwhelmingly male and white.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

kabbes said:


> Not to mention have dozens of hours of solitary time available to dedicate to it.


That's just an artifact of the current audience that video games are made for. It is perfectly possible to have a full and satisfying gaming experience in the same 2 hours it takes to watch a movie.

The "solitary" bit is harder to work round. Some great games can be played together like you can watch a movie together, but I'd agree that the best experiences are when it's just you and the game.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> OTOH table-top gaming is cheap too


yeah, but is it ART?


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> yeah, but is it ART?


 
A helluva lot closer than most digital games, I'd say


----------



## Random (Nov 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> That's just an artifact of the current audience that video games are made for. It is perfectly possible to have a full and satisfying gaming experience in the same 2 hours it takes to watch a movie.
> 
> The "solitary" bit is harder to work round. Some great games can be played together like you can watch a movie together, but I'd agree that the best experiences are when it's just you and the game.


It's true, I had just an hour and a bit today for Assassins' Creed Brotherhood, but I just wandered around Rome enjoying the scenery, rebuilding shops and doing one Memory. I'm not in a hurry; it'll probably take me months yet to finish it, and what i like is savouring all the detail.

Surely games nowadays are "over-engineered"? So much thought, graphics, pace and choreography go into creating a setup like AC Rome, and sometimes even I just blast trhough it in search of a feeling of having "got something done".


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

Random said:


> It's true, I had just an hour and a bit today for Assassins' Creed Brotherhood, but I just wandered around Rome enjoying the scenery, rebuilding shops and doing one Memory. I'm not in a hurry; it'll probably take me months yet to finish it, and what i like is savouring all the detail.
> 
> Surely games nowadays are "over-engineered"? So much thought, graphics, pace and choreography go into creating a setup like AC Rome, and sometimes even I just blast trhough it in search of a feeling of having "got something done".


 
That's why, if I've got hours to waste, I just play stuff like Need for Speed. No narrative is better sometimes.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

I've hardly played any console games this year at all, for some reason.  I have a copy of El Shaddai that I was given at Christmas last year that is still in its wrapper.  I never even went back to Dark Souls, despite only having clocked 20 hours or so in it.  I just somehow lost interest in booting up the console.

Frankly, I don't think the continuous stream of operating system updates helped.  At a crucial point, they made me feel that I couldn't just switch on and play.  So then I got out of the habit.


----------



## Random (Nov 2, 2012)

Another thing I like to think about is the way "gamification" is impinging on everyday life; the impact of a generation of Western males growing up with computer games, what implications this has for social organisation, etc.

Plus the future of our online worlds, the way we are living so much of our lives via social media, and the ways that this crosses over and fails to cross over into things like MMORPGs. A blog i used to read a lot is Ariane's Life in the Metaverse http://arianeb.wordpress.com/ She looks at MMORPGs and rather surprisingly takes some hard economic analysis of how they function, systems of incentives and rewards they ivolve, what kind of architecture they create.

Plus plus plus I remember reading Use of Weapons and it had a very good description of what could only be an immersive MMORPG. Anyone remember that scene? Now I look and it was published in 1990, which imo makes IM banks a techno visionary/lucky SF hack in the AC Clark style.


----------



## Random (Nov 2, 2012)

And what about games as a form of self-harming? On my way to work i played one of those bubble shooter games on my phone, as I could't bring myself to read a book. It literally obliterated my time; I was killing myself in small installments like some Blue Jam sketch. What does it mean that some games basically help us to ignore the world, and give us nothing?


----------



## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

Random said:


> And what about games as a form of self-harming? On my way to work i played one of those bubble shooter games on my phone, as I could't bring myself to read a book. It literally obliterated my time; I was killing myself in small installments like some Blue Jam sketch. What does it mean that some games basically help us to ignore the world, and give us nothing?


I have been thinking about that _very same thing_ for the last week or so!  I have spent the last month shutting myself off from anything but this really shitty mobile mmorpg-lite (VERY light), and it has killed so much interaction it isn't funny.  Why have I done it?  What has it given me?  I have discovered that some people in the game spend upwards of $1000 per year on it (personally I haven't spent a cent) -- what on earth does it give _them_?


----------



## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

I think a lot of confusion about "videogames=art" come from "videogames" being far too wide a category. It's a category based on the technology used to make them. Angry Birds and Proteus are both "videogames" yet there are almost no commonalities. By the same logic, a powerpoint presentation deserves to be counted alongside a feature film, because they're both projected onto reflective screens. Videogames aren't a new category of media, they're an entirely different thing, entirely due to their interactivity.


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone disagree...


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Well, if you take as a starting point the fact that gaming is a white m/c male domain par excellence


 
Sorry, but that isn't true.  Maybe it used to be but not any more.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I think a lot of confusion about "videogames=art" come from "videogames" being far too wide a category. It's a category based on the technology used to make them. Angry Birds and Proteus are both "videogames" yet there are almost no commonalities. By the same logic, a powerpoint presentation deserves to be counted alongside a feature film, because they're both projected onto reflective screens. Videogames aren't a new category of media, they're an entirely different thing, entirely due to their interactivity.


 
You could say the same thing about paintings vs prints vs sketches vs watercolours etc. Yet they are all part of figurative arts. Maybe we should talk about game arts or Arts instead, where videogames are but one part?


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

tommers said:


> Sorry, but that isn't true. Maybe it used to be but not any more.


 
Light hyperbole, but how many games out of 100 feature a male white protagonist? Who owns gaming companies? Who writes games? Who codes them? If not always white, they're certainly mainly men.


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

I'll give you "mainly men", it was just the white and m/c bits!


----------



## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

Not sure about the cultural/ethnic angle, it's something I'm going to have to reflect on.  But the rampant gender bias is of serious limitation to artistic development.


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

kabbes said:


> Not sure about the cultural/ethnic angle, it's something I'm going to have to reflect on. But the rampant gender bias is of serious limitation to artistic development.


 
seen that hitman trailer?


----------



## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

tommers said:


> seen that hitman trailer?


I don't think so?


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

kabbes said:


> I don't think so?


 
Probably for the best.  There was a "sexy killer nuns" trailer for the hitman game released a few month's back.  Caused a bit of a storm.  It's not very nice.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 2, 2012)

tommers said:


> Probably for the best. There was a "sexy killer nuns" trailer for the hitman game released a few month's back. Caused a bit of a storm. It's not very nice.


That's the endemic problem, alright.  It's like those involved don't even understand the basics of why this might be a problem.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 2, 2012)

kabbes said:


> That's the endemic problem, alright. It's like those involved don't even understand the basics of why this might be a problem.


Have you ever been to a LAN party?


----------



## tommers (Nov 2, 2012)

kabbes said:


> That's the endemic problem, alright. It's like those involved don't even understand the basics of why this might be a problem.


 
I think it's another one of the growing pains.  It came out, some people said "hang on, this isn't great", other people said "OMG, are you some kind of pansy?  This is awesome".  It kind of illustrated the difference between the "traditional" image of gamers (adolescent boys who have never touched a lady and who liked the sexy women dressed as nuns) and normal grown ups who thought it was all a bit sick.

Of course, part of the issue is that the people who were adolescent boys have grown up and been replaced by other adolescent boys so companies don't really know who to aim at.  There's still very much an audience for sexy nuns, but there's also a load of people who think the sexy nuns stuff needs to just stop.  That's probably been happening gradually over the past 30 years... but it's getting more and more noticeable.


----------



## Random (Nov 2, 2012)

Yes, qv also that woman and her Kickstarter for gener study of gaming, that got flamed and attacked.


----------



## freshnero (Nov 2, 2012)

Yahtzee reviews which are done for entertainment more than a guide on what to buy still end up matching my views on what games are worth playing. Its always nice to see him lay into a game that ign and its like have been giving 9's to


----------



## Random (Nov 2, 2012)

freshnero said:


> Yahtzee reviews which are done for entertainment more than a guide on what to buy still end up matching my views on what games are worth playing. Its always nice to see him lay into a game that ign and its like have been giving 9's to


I like his attitude, especially his disdain for sacred cows, but he doesn't really have time to go into games properly and even a good game he has to spend most time complaining about. Plus he's on a weekly treadmill and has to review shedloads of games that he simply doesn't get and so has little useful to say about them. Saying all of that, his two minutes usually have more insights than most reviewers' longer reviews.


----------



## freshnero (Nov 2, 2012)

Look at the comments on the Uncharted 3 review which dared to give it a 8 instead of the 10 people who hadn't even played it yet felt it deserved.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-10-21-uncharted-3-drakes-deception-review


----------



## Crispy (Nov 2, 2012)

Random said:


> I like his attitude, especially his disdain for sacred cows, but he doesn't really have time to go into games properly and even a good game he has to spend most time complaining about. Plus he's on a weekly treadmill and has to review shedloads of games that he simply doesn't get and so has little useful to say about them. Saying all of that, his two minutes usually have more insights than most reviewers' longer reviews.


I'd like to see him stop doing the videos and start writing reviews


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 4, 2012)

freshnero said:


> Look at the comments on the Uncharted 3 review which dared to give it a 8 instead of the 10 people who hadn't even played it yet felt it deserved.
> http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-10-21-uncharted-3-drakes-deception-review


 


Every so often the internet throws up a new form of idiot I didn't know existed.

The ones demanding the score be removed from metacritic.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 14, 2012)

Not sure if this got posted earlier in the thread and I missed it, but I found this article interesting.



> _“If you disagree with me, you do so at your own peril,” wrote Trip Hawkins, president of the now defunct game publisher 3DO, in an irate e-mail to the editors of GamePro magazine in 2001. “....And do not patronize me by telling me the reader is the customer—your real customer is the one that pays you your revenue. And it is game industry advertisers.”_


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 14, 2012)

another reasonable take on it.

http://blip.tv/gameoverthinker/atgo-episode-78-press-played-6436769

skip the first min or  so which is  just about  the  series moving  to blip


----------



## Yata (Nov 16, 2012)

Too much money in gaming now, its inevitable that this kinda thing is gonna happen and its just the way things like this are. I wouldnt really trust any review for any game even before all this came out and its the same for movies.
But then again it shocks me that people make a living writing reviews anyway so what do I know


----------



## golightly (Dec 12, 2012)

I just watched this video by Anita Sarkeesian about some nasty misogynist behaviour in the gaming world. It's a fairly long video (about 10 minutes), but the summary is that the reaction of some men when it is suggested that the portrayal of women in games is a tad sexist was pretty extreme.  For example, saying that she should be raped for criticising games.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 12, 2012)

unfortunately there are a lot of shitheads in the gaming community

however  i think  it's going to happen when a medium becomes popular to the masses.  

i really want to know how prevalent  the bullshit is as a percentage.

also it seems  the media outlets  focus on the arse end of gaming


----------



## golightly (Dec 12, 2012)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> unfortunately there are a lot of shitheads in the gaming community
> 
> however i think it's going to happen when a medium becomes popular to the masses.


 
Is this response inevitable?  It is extreme and very unpleasant.  Have there been similar responses to criticism of sexism in cinema for example?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 13, 2012)

i'm sure there has been it's just there was less of a platform to air them

i think it may be down to a sence of entitlement to spout shit given by the voice chat systems of a lot of games

well it's a hypothesis anyhow


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 13, 2012)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> however i think it's going to happen when a medium becomes popular to the masses.


 
Whereas self-selecting elites are beacons of respect and diversity?


----------



## TruXta (Dec 13, 2012)

golightly said:


> I just watched this video by Anita Sarkeesian about some nasty misogynist behaviour in the gaming world. It's a fairly long video (about 10 minutes), but the summary is that the reaction of some men when it is suggested that the portrayal of women in games is a tad sexist was pretty extreme. For example, saying that she should be raped for criticising games.



While the message is good I have very little sympathy for her after her Kickstarter debacle, and the fact that she's gone on to become a talking muppet instead of doing what she said she was gonna do.


----------



## Random (Dec 13, 2012)

TruXta said:


> While the message is good I have very little sympathy for her after her Kickstarter debacle, and the fact that she's gone on to become a talking muppet instead of doing what she said she was gonna do.


Tell me more. She's misused the Kickstarter money?


----------



## TruXta (Dec 13, 2012)

Random said:


> Tell me more. She's misused the Kickstarter money?


http://i.imgur.com/AT72V.jpg


----------



## captainmission (Dec 13, 2012)

TruXta said:


> While the message is good I have very little sympathy for her after her Kickstarter debacle, and the fact that she's gone on to become a talking muppet instead of doing what she said she was gonna do.


 
what about her behaviour made you loose sympathy? Why you think she isn't making her video series?


----------



## TruXta (Dec 13, 2012)

captainmission said:


> what about her behaviour made you loose sympathy? Why you think she isn't making her video series?


See the link immediately above your post. Loads more out there.


----------



## Random (Dec 13, 2012)

TruXta said:


> http://i.imgur.com/AT72V.jpg


There are few legitimate criticisms in that article.

And it includes the very weird accusation that the abuse was about her asking for money to buy games. And that she is getting too much attention as she's not an expert.  Like it or not, she is now an "expert" in her own experience of being abused for raising an issue, and it's not odd that media want to talk to her about this, rather than about her project, which isn't done yet. nad considering the shit-storm that's erupted, i don't think the research project being late is a reason to assume that she's just dropped it.


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## TruXta (Dec 13, 2012)

Random said:


> There are few legitimate criticisms in that article.
> 
> And it includes the very weird accusation that the abuse was about her asking for money to buy games. And that she is getting too much attention as she's not an expert. Like it or not, she is now an "expert" in her own experience of being abused for raising an issue, and it's not odd that media want to talk to her about this, rather than about her project, which isn't done yet. nad considering the shit-storm that's erupted, i don't think the research project being late is a reason to assume that she's just dropped it.


She could just tell the media that she's got stuff to do, namely the stuff she got money to do. Seems to me she's becoming the Laurie Penny of game criticism.


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## Random (Dec 13, 2012)

TruXta said:


> She could just tell the media that she's got stuff to do, namely the stuff she got money to do.


Like it or not, the abuse she suffered has now become an issue that overshadows her original research proposal. She's also got a duty to talk about this issue. For the first time there's a (small) mainstream media debate about misogyny in gaming, and that's only a good thing.


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## TruXta (Dec 13, 2012)

Random said:


> Like it or not, the abuse she suffered has now become an issue that overshadows her original research proposal. She's also got a duty to talk about this issue. For the first time there's a (small) mainstream media debate about misogyny in gaming, and that's only a good thing.


Yebbut. Seems to me it's more about her than it is about the wider issue.


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 13, 2012)

TruXta said:


> http://i.imgur.com/AT72V.jpg


 


> ...the initial harassment may have been caused by the fact that she asked for money to buy video games. Regardless of gender, this sort of Kickstarter campaign would have drawn harassment.


 
_She should have known better, going out dressed like that._


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## captainmission (Dec 13, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Yebbut. Seems to me it's more about her than it is about the wider issue.


 
surely the misogyny, harassment and unreasonable criticism (including the elsa comment you posted) is part of they wider issue.


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## TruXta (Dec 13, 2012)

captainmission said:


> surely the misogyny, harassment and unreasonable criticism (including the elsa comment you posted) is part of they wider issue.


What do you think was unreasonable about it? The link I mean.


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## Random (Dec 13, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Yebbut. Seems to me it's more about her than it is about the wider issue.


Again, you're not really coming out with substantial criticisms to justify saying that it's a "debacle", or that you have "very little sympathy for her". I've not seen any videos with her: maybe she's got a really annoying tone, but so far you've not come up with any real reasons to dismiss her so utterly.

As DaveCinzano points out, it sounds a lot like a backlash where the victim gets blamed.


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## TruXta (Dec 13, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> _She should have known better, going out dressed like that._


I see where you're going with that, but I do think the way she communicated her Kickstarter was a bit cackhanded. Does not in any way excuse the vile abuse she got of course.


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## TruXta (Dec 13, 2012)

Random said:


> Again, you're not really coming out with substantial criticisms to justify saying that it's a "debacle", or that you have "very little sympathy for her". I've not seen any videos with her: maybe she's got a really annoying tone, but so far you've not come up with any real reasons to dismiss her so utterly.
> 
> As DaveCinzano points out, it sounds a lot like a backlash where the victim gets blamed.


My gripe is she took the money and did fuck all with it, despite claiming the Kickstarter project would see her working full time on games critique. Since the shitstorm ensued it's been _me me me_ and none of what she set out to do. She does say the videos are in production, but colour me unimpressed.


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## Random (Dec 13, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Since the shitstorm ensued it's been _me me me_ and none of what she set out to do. She does say the videos are in production, but colour me unimpressed.


 Blame the shitstorm, not the victim. For fuck's sake. "You're better than this", as people say.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 13, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Whereas self-selecting elites are beacons of respect and diversity?



All mackerel are fish but not all fish are mackerel.


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## TruXta (Dec 13, 2012)

Random said:


> Blame the shitstorm, not the victim. For fuck's sake. "You're better than this", as people say.


You don't think she's building a career as a talking head on the back of this? Come the fuck on. The only thing I'm blaming her for is taking people for a ride.


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## Random (Dec 13, 2012)

TruXta said:


> You don't think she's building a career as a talking head on the back of this? Come the fuck on. The only thing I'm blaming her for is taking people for a ride.


 You're blaming her for talking about how she got abused. If she never carries out the Kickstarter research then we can say she cheated all the donors, but so far I can't see why she should not be given the benefit of the doubt. Is there something else that makes out mistrust her intentions?


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## golightly (Dec 13, 2012)

TruXta said:


> While the message is good I have very little sympathy for her after her Kickstarter debacle, and the fact that she's gone on to become a talking muppet instead of doing what she said she was gonna do.


 

I had heard that there were some criticisms regarding her position. The kicksarter funding was presented her defeating the online bigots.  She got 25 times her target which was $6000 if I recall, which is great but doesn't really address the bigots.


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## TruXta (Dec 13, 2012)

Random said:


> You're blaming her for talking about how she got abused. If she never carries out the Kickstarter research then we can say she cheated all the donors, but so far I can't see why she should not be given the benefit of the doubt. Is there something else that makes out mistrust her intentions?


 
I think her project is sound. The way she's gone about it not so much. As I said earlier, shades of Laurie Penny.


golightly said:


> The kicksarter funding was presented her defeating the online bigots.


How so?


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## captainmission (Dec 13, 2012)

TruXta said:


> What do you think was unreasonable about it? The link I mean.


 
to break it down point by point


they deny she's an expert because she not worked in the games industy- this isn't a requirement to be a critic. no one would expect a film critic to be ex-director, sound engineer or camera man.
it bothers the author that "that female programmers, designer, artisit and project manager that work in the industry recieve this kind of [internet] harassment first hand, yet anita some how becomes a voice for all of them." That would seem to suggest the author doesn't think anita suffered this harassment first hand, which would be a utterly bizarre claim to make. The #1reasonswhy hash tag was about female employees in the games industry experiences of working in sexist workplaces and being involved in making misogynistic products rather than online harassment. But i can't think of any gaming related examples of where a woman has faced such a degree of organised vitriol and hatred.
Both of these point, plus the fact that she missed her first deadline (something not uncommon in any creative enterprise, and not suprising considering the excess funding lead to antina expanding the scope of her proposal) means she lack 'expertise'; essentially she has no right to talk about issue
the author then states that anita "refuses to see that the intial harassment may have been caused by the fact she asked for money to buy video games". Well if this victim blaming i don't know what is. Apparently she fired the first shot in this 'debacle' and is to unrefelective to even acknowledge this.
the only semi-legitimate gripe the author has is that anita asked for part of the funding to be used to buy video games. I personally don't think it unreasonable for someone undertaken such a project to budget for research material, but the author considers this so beyond the pale it more important to discuss this than anything else in the whole 'debacle'.


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## Random (Dec 13, 2012)

captainmission said:


> [*]the only semi-legitimate gripe the author has is that anita asked for part of the funding to be used to buy video games.


 To me that's part of a character assassination: she's not a proper gamer, she wanted money to buy games. As though research was a hobby that fans should be happy to be allowed to do.


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## golightly (Dec 13, 2012)

TruXta said:


> How so?


 
I'll find the quote when I'm back home (it's blocked at work), but on the page where I found the video link said at about 8:15 on the video Anita Sarkeesian explains how she gets one over on her haters.  At the time I assumed it meant that she outwitted them in a debate but it turned out that she was referring to her kickstarter funding.


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## golightly (Dec 13, 2012)

Here's a rather 'charming' blog critiquing her use of the kickstarter money:

Spearhead


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## captainmission (Dec 13, 2012)

Random said:


> To me that's part of a character assassination: she's not a proper gamer, she wanted money to buy games. As though research was a hobby that fans should be happy to be allowed to do.


 
but she's a woman; she can't possibly know what she is doing is wrong. Her real crime is that when men pointed out her failings she 'refused to see'.


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## XR75 (Dec 17, 2012)

Her real crime was being a feminazi, trying to push here crap at people who really don't care for that sort of nonsense.


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## captainmission (Dec 26, 2012)

..because if somethings on the internet you have to look at it, right?


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## Random (Mar 20, 2013)

golightly said:


> Here's a rather 'charming' blog critiquing her use of the kickstarter money:
> 
> Spearhead


The person who writes that anti-feminist blog, and who alledged that she'd used all the money to buy a car, etc, now has this to say "I like to think the scrutiny from me and other observers helped motivate her to finally release a video."


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## Crispy (Mar 20, 2013)




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## tommers (Mar 25, 2013)

What a dick.


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