# Petition to stop off-roading in national parks



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm guessing that this won't be a popular campaign with some of the urban75 populace.  But the fact that off-roading is allowed in national parks is a bit of an historical quirk left over from ancient rights of way, now used as an excuse for organised groups to take over entire BOATs* and turn them into muddy race courses.

This is extremely destructive on a number of fronts -- it destroys ancient tracks, it makes miles of tracks into no-go areas for anybody else and it causes serious harm to wildlife (including many endangered species, who are scared away from the little habitat left available to them).

If any of that matters to you, I urge you to sign this petition.  People can go and ride their 4x4s on private land or other set-aside areas instead of dominating our shared spaces to their own ends (and frequently making a profit out of doing it to boot).

Cheers

*By-ways Open to All Traffic


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## DotCommunist (Dec 7, 2011)

countryside alliance nimbyism etc!


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## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> countryside alliance nimbyism etc!


On which side though?


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## DownwardDog (Dec 7, 2011)

Anti w/c snobbery.


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## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

All those working class people that own a spare 4x4 for taking to national parks in their spare time, you mean?


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## Santino (Dec 7, 2011)

I've signed your stupid petition.


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## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

Marvellous.  I don't ask that people like it or are happy about it, just that they sign it.  For me.  For all of us.  And most of all, for the poor little dormouse.  Do you want to kill dormice?


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## Idaho (Dec 7, 2011)

DownwardDog said:


> Anti w/c snobbery.



I can't decide whether I want that to be a joke, or I want you to really mean it.


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Dec 7, 2011)

I got told off by some busybody plastic policeman for cycling along a well worn pathway on a sunny day in Richmond Park.

Fuking jobsworth!

We waited for him to disappear and got back on our bikes - pissed off.

I didn't see him telling anyone to get off their horses. The cunt.

Will this petition include bikes (and horses)?


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## Orang Utan (Dec 7, 2011)

not all the paths in Richmond Park are for cyclists, FLB


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## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I got told off by some busybody plastic policeman for cycling along a well worn pathway on a sunny day in Richmond Park.
> 
> Fuking jobsworth!
> 
> ...


No, it's about the exact opposite -- it's about allowing bikers (and all other non-motorised users) to be able to use these paths without fear for their life.


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## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

(I'd also point out that to my knowledge, Richmond Park is not a national park.  It's an SSI and a national nature reserve, but national parks have a special status.)


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Dec 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> not all the paths in Richmond Park are for cyclists, FLB



Well, they should be.

What if I put a motor onto my horse?


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## Orang Utan (Dec 7, 2011)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Well, they should be.


why? people should have places to walk without worrying about cyclists


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## kittyP (Dec 7, 2011)

I am not sure who is being serious here.... 

I have signed.


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## manny-p (Dec 7, 2011)

Jesus Christ. First they came for the fox hunters and I said nothing....


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## manny-p (Dec 7, 2011)

kabbes said:


> it destroys ancient tracks, it makes miles of tracks into no-go areas for anybody else



If I was a fox I would like that.


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## rover07 (Dec 7, 2011)

Isnt fox-hunting banned in National Parks?


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## Idaho (Dec 7, 2011)

It's as anti-social as jet skiing.


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## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

rover07 said:


> Isnt fox-hunting banned in National Parks?


Fox-hunting is banned full stop.


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## scifisam (Dec 7, 2011)

Signed, but how would they go about banning it?


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## Kanda (Dec 7, 2011)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I got told off by some busybody plastic policeman for cycling along a well worn pathway on a sunny day in Richmond Park.
> 
> Fuking jobsworth!
> 
> ...



It's a fucking bridle path not a cycle path!!


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## fredfelt (Dec 7, 2011)

Signed.

Since 4WD vehicles have been banned from the Ridegway the ancient track has recovered no end in just a couple of years.


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## jakethesnake (Dec 7, 2011)

Kanda said:


> It's a fucking bridle path not a cycle path!!


Cycling is allowed on bridle paths, afaik, not footpaths.


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## editor (Dec 7, 2011)

*Signed.


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## Orang Utan (Dec 7, 2011)

i haven't signed it.
in case anyone was wondering.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm in two minds about this. In principal I'm against it, but when I mashed up an ankle climbing a while ago, some guys on bikes stopped and picked me, saving me a long and uncomfy crawl back to the road.


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## Orang Utan (Dec 7, 2011)

i didn't know you could get 4wd bikes, GS?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Dec 7, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> i didn't know you could get 4wd bikes, GS?



The petition doesn't mention them, that was just kabbes. I assume it applies to scramblers as well.


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## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

Interesting.  I realise now that I made an assumption about it being 4x4s -- for some reason, that was what sprung to my mind.  But I guess it does apply to scramblers too.

Scramblers also cause a hell of a mess, mind.  There's a BOAT near us that is popular as a scrambler race-track and they have _totally_ fucked it.  They have also cause at least one serious injury that I know of.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Dec 7, 2011)

I wasn't being that serious. They can make a hell of a mess, but are far far worse then 4x4s for noise. I'd actually bitched a fair few times about them using the tops of the edge we were climbing at. Then they picked me up.


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## Kanda (Dec 7, 2011)

Basically, this is Kabbes shouting GET ORF MY LAND!!!!!


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## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

It's a bit "pastoral idyll" of me, but I can't help feeling that people go to national parks to enjoy some peace and quiet in the countryside.  Just one person ripping up the place on a 4x4 or shattering the peace in a 2-mile radius on a scrambler basically destroys the experience for everybody else.


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## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

Kanda said:


> Basically, this is Kabbes shouting GET ORF MY LAND!!!!!


My land?

I'm talking about the national parks.


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## editor (Dec 7, 2011)

kabbes said:


> It's a bit "pastoral idyll" of me, but I can't help feeling that people go to national parks to enjoy some peace and quiet in the countryside. Just one person ripping up the place on a 4x4 or shattering the peace in a 2-mile radius on a scrambler basically destroys the experience for everybody else.


Indeed. Go play with your noisy toys on your own land. National Parks are supposed to be for relaxing, not recreating the High Street.


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## Orang Utan (Dec 7, 2011)

there also needs to be a campaign to get rid of witches' knickers at beauty spots. there's a barely a place without them spoiling the view.


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## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

Get rid of what now?


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## Orang Utan (Dec 7, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Get rid of what now?


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## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

Ah.  Not heard them called that before.


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## krink (Dec 7, 2011)

I'll sign it.

I also wish all the 'off-roaders' would stop driving all over the pavements and grass verges in my city, the twats.

And the scramblers race in our local parks (these are adults not kids) and even up the kiddies slides. That time I tried to bat them with a tree branch but the fuckers were too fast being on motorbikes etc.


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## likesfish (Dec 7, 2011)

Brighton police have a copper on a trail bike to deal with off road motorbikes.
  Its a bit youth can't have fun but their very noisy ,they don't have any right to be on the land they do cause damage and if theirs an accident and a couple of them are seriously anti social twats
   trying to do a legal motorcycle field is impossible went to a couple of meetings to try and set something up. Found land that could be used Insurance is horrendous any bike would have to meet acceptable standards everyone would have to have protective clothing etc etc
  As a volunteer project not really doable by the time you set it up and even on a non profit basis wouldn't be much cheaper than a commerical site.
  if I won the lottery might set up a project with electric trail bikes all the fun no noise brilliant


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Dec 7, 2011)

likesfish said:


> Brighton police have a copper on a trail bike to deal with off road motorbikes.
> Its a bit youth can't have fun but their very noisy ,they don't have any right to be on the land they do cause damage and if theirs an accident and a couple of them are seriously anti social twats
> trying to do a legal motorcycle field is impossible went to a couple of meetings to try and set something up. Found land that could be used Insurance is horrendous any bike would have to meet acceptable standards everyone would have to have protective clothing etc etc
> As a volunteer project not really doable by the time you set it up and even on a non profit basis wouldn't be much cheaper than a commerical site.
> if I won the lottery might set up a project with electric trail bikes all the fun no noise brilliant



Good on you for trying to do something. Trust me I can see the thrill. Used to work on a field the Scott trials went through. I really wouldn't like to go down it like they did, it was very, very steep!

Have you seen the video on engadet of one the new electrics?


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## likesfish (Dec 7, 2011)

Its just a shame it wasn't doable really.
 the new electrics would be ideal insanely pricey for what they are but you could take over the old bmx track in Brighton run it daily and not annoy the neighbours.
   still have the problem off getting kids off estates to use your super new project


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Dec 7, 2011)

If it was there and good they'd come, could be a great way to engage with some kind of youth work. Think you'd have to be somewhere a bit of town, which would bring it's own problems. If seen money squandered on projects that could have payed for something like this (petrol though not electric).

In fact if you could get the maintenance angle in there as well you could sell it as skills acquisition.


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## kabbes (Dec 7, 2011)

If you agree with the petition then please also share it with others!


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## Orang Utan (Dec 7, 2011)

i agree with it, but i won't sign it.


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## mauvais (Dec 7, 2011)

I don't care about green laning either way, to be honest, but I can't help feeling that a logical progression of this would affect mountain biking and whatever else - so I don't agree.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 7, 2011)

direct action - put massive rocks & logs on the bridleways, and dig a few axle-breaking ditches


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## pogofish (Dec 8, 2011)

mauvais said:


> I don't care about green laning either way, to be honest, but I can't help feeling that a logical progression of this would affect mountain biking and whatever else - so I don't agree.



Yes - I would see this as the start of a slippery slope to trying to limit use/access to tracks/traditional highways that were previously open to all.

What next, no pushbikes, no walkers with poles/sticks/dogs/children etc - there have actually been folk clamouring for the likes of this in Scotland, and to have access limited to "real walkers/climbers" not just people out to enjoy a stroll eg the campign for "granny stopper" bridges built to replace footbridges in Glencoe.

Also - and I don't know if this is entirely relavent to England but it is also the case that a lot of the public money given for the upkeep/access to old byeways etc in our National Parks has ended-up being used to bulldoze new vehicular roads for agricultural/hunting operations instead. Needless to say the landowners are determined not to have those used by anyone else and the Park Authorities etc don't want to upset any other applecarts by taking them to task for it!


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## kabbes (Dec 8, 2011)

Why would it be a slippery slope?  It's easy to delineate motorised transport from other types.  And it's easy to identify the specific problems that motorised transport bring to ancient woodland tracks that were never intended for them.

I'd say it would actually be bloody difficult to argue from a ban on 4x4s and scramblers through to one on mountain bikes.  There's almost no connection whatsoever.


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## mauvais (Dec 8, 2011)

You could make most of the same arguments about MTB or even horse riders - they scare wildlife, make a mess of tracks, are a hazard to walkers and so on. The tracks were never intended for bikes. Now all of those _can_ be true, but for the most part are not, because most users are responsible.

There are counterpoints to removing motorised access to BOATs; for instance, many of the ancient tracks from which access was removed have now fallen into disrepair and are inaccessible by anyone. I don't really understand the compulsion to go 4x4 green laning, but each to their own, and I find it slightly two-faced that Urbanites would campaign for e.g. better rambler access whilst trying to reduce another group's access.


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## kabbes (Dec 8, 2011)

Ramblers don't fuck up the experience for everybody else though.  Neither do most mountain bikers.  Those driving scramblers and 4x4s can't help but fuck it up.


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## editor (Dec 8, 2011)

pogofish said:


> Yes - I would see this as the start of a slippery slope to trying to limit use/access to tracks/traditional highways that were previously open to all.
> 
> What next, no pushbikes, no walkers with poles/sticks/dogs/children etc - there have actually been folk clamouring for the likes of this in Scotland, and to have access limited to "real walkers/climbers" not just people out to enjoy a stroll eg the campign for "granny stopper" bridges built to replace footbridges in Glencoe.


Just 'no motorised transport*' does it for me. Roads are for things with motors on. National parks are for people.

(*electric wheelchairs exempt, natch)


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## editor (Dec 8, 2011)

This isn't my idea of what should be going on in a National Park.






http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/outdoors-news/more-4x4-prohibition-for-the-peak/9074.html


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## mauvais (Dec 8, 2011)

I don't think it _has_ to be like that. Can't you do something on a local basis? MTB is voluntarily banned from Snowdon in summer, for instance.


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## kabbes (Dec 8, 2011)

mauvais said:


> I don't think it _has_ to be like that. Can't you do something on a local basis? MTB is voluntarily banned from Snowdon in summer, for instance.


No, there is basically no power whatsoever to do anything on a local basis.


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## editor (Dec 8, 2011)

Local campaign here:



> Take back the tracks
> Join our campaign to stop irresponsible off-roaders carving up the Peak District
> http://www.friendsofthepeak.org.uk/Campaigns/Take_back_the_tracks/


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## editor (Dec 8, 2011)

mauvais said:


> I don't think it _has_ to be like that. Can't you do something on a local basis? MTB is voluntarily banned from Snowdon in summer, for instance.


AFAIK, no one's calling for a ban on mountain bikes.

From the link above: "We campaign against people destroying land and disturbing tranquillity with off-road 4x4 vehicles, trail motorbikes and quad bikes.  ."


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## mauvais (Dec 8, 2011)

editor said:


> AFAIK, no one's calling for a ban on mountain bikes.


I didn't suggest that they were.


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## kabbes (Dec 8, 2011)

mauvais said:


> I didn't suggest that they were.


But you're saying that you wouldn't want to sign this because you are worried about a ban on mountain bikes.

I don't see that the two issues are remotely related.


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## sim667 (Dec 8, 2011)

Loads of people do it around where I live, but they dont cause any problems at all really.....

Im not sure if any of it is actually national park land, I know winterfold forest (a off roaders favourite) is private forest but with lots of rights of way.


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## mauvais (Dec 8, 2011)

kabbes said:


> But you're saying that you wouldn't want to sign this because you are worried about a ban on mountain bikes.
> 
> I don't see that the two issues are remotely related.


As I've said, I think it's a logical progression and makes maintaining that access right more difficult. I separately mention Snowdon because it's a good example of two groups working well together to avoid conflict.


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## Santino (Dec 8, 2011)

editor said:


> This isn't my idea of what should be going on in a National Park.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's that slippery slope that people worry about.


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## editor (Dec 8, 2011)

sim667 said:


> Loads of people do it around where I live, but they dont cause any problems at all really.....
> 
> Im not sure if any of it is actually national park land, I know winterfold forest (a off roaders favourite) is private forest but with lots of rights of way.


Here's some of the damage that they've been causing in the Peak District:


> Houndkirk - job done!
> We've been campaigning for three years against 4x4 drivers and trail bikers carving up Houndkirk near Sheffield. Houndkirk Road itself is a legitimate byway and open to motor vehicles. However, off-roaders often drive too fast and recklessly, damaging the road especially in wet weather when it is already really boggy.
> 
> Our main concern at Houndkirk though, was that 4x4s created a trials circuit on an area of open moorland at the highest point on the road (just above Parson House Farm) that is a Site of Special Scientific Interest. This was illegal, an eyesore and an invitation for drivers to go further out onto the moor.
> ...


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## pogofish (Dec 8, 2011)

> Houndkirk - job done!
> We've been campaigning for three years against 4x4 drivers and trail bikers carving up Houndkirk near Sheffield. Houndkirk Road itself is a legitimate byway and open to motor vehicles. However, off-roaders often drive too fast and recklessly, damaging the road especially in wet weather when it is already really boggy.
> 
> Our main concern at Houndkirk though, was that 4x4s created a trials circuit on an area of open moorland at the highest point on the road (just above Parson House Farm) that is a Site of Special Scientific Interest. This was illegal, an eyesore and an invitation for drivers to go further out onto the moor.



Thing is I've heard this, more or less word for word claimed against cyclists on hill roads/forest areas in my part of the world.


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## smokedout (Dec 9, 2011)

kabbes said:


> No, it's about the exact opposite -- it's about allowing bikers (and all other non-motorised users) to be able to use these paths without fear for their life.



The tow path from hackney to camden is impossible to walk down at rush hour because of fucking cyclists.  few of them need kicking in the canal if you ask me.


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## Orang Utan (Dec 9, 2011)

Your complaint is entirely irrelevant


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## likesfish (Dec 9, 2011)

4x4s mtbs horse and walkers do damage trails it depends on the level of use.
 For instance if I took a Trojan over the moors (an engineer version of a challenger tank with added crane dozer blade total beast on tracks) one journey would cause massive damage, on foot almost none.
  quad bike little quad bike doing doughnuts all weekend long lots.

you want to play off road either own the land your going to wreck or pay to have it maintained.
 I think its unreasonable to expect everyone to cough up to repair the damage for your hobby.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Dec 9, 2011)

Walkers can do enough damage before powered stuff comes into play


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## likesfish (Dec 9, 2011)

true Thats why the national parks authority and National trust and others spend a lot of time path building and restoring.
  green laning is only really doable if its a tiny minority doing it infrequently or your prepared to live with a Somme like swamp or you have a massive reconstruction effort.
 your land you can play in the mud pit.
 not your land you don't get to decide if its ruined.


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## ExtraRefined (Dec 14, 2011)

kabbes said:


> All those working class people that own a spare 4x4 for taking to national parks in their spare time, you mean?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-16114886



> The court heard Mr Williams received benefits and could not afford to travel the 160 miles to the Caernarfon court.


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## kabbes (Dec 14, 2011)

Thank you for the bump, which gives more people a chance to read the OP and vote on the petition.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Dec 14, 2011)

ExtraRefined said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-16114886



He could afford a 4x4 and put fuel in it, yet couldn't afford to get to court?


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## ExtraRefined (Dec 14, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Thank you for the bump, which gives more people a chance to read the OP and vote on the petition.



I'm basically in favour of this (I'd prefer that they reclassified BOATs to bridleways but that's just semantics). I just can't stand people being wrong on the internet.


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## Santino (Dec 14, 2011)

ExtraRefined said:


> I'm basically in favour of this (I'd prefer that they reclassified BOATs to bridleways but that's just semantics). I just can't stand people being wrong on the internet.


It's like ten thousand spoons.


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## Termite Man (Dec 31, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Ramblers don't fuck up the experience for everybody else though. Neither do most mountain bikers. Those driving scramblers and 4x4s can't help but fuck it up.


 
Ramblers are cunts, if this happens then they will try and fuck the countryside up for everyone who isn't a rambler, I don't support the petition but if it included death to all ramblers i would then sign it.


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## Santino (Dec 31, 2011)

Small sheep like ramblers.


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