# End The Use Of Wld Animals In Circuses



## ZIZI (Jan 25, 2006)

The RSPCA and Born Free Foundation are asking for a ban of the use of Wild animals in cicuses. Having seen some pretty horrific footage could anyone who is interested please write to their AM's and ask them to support in Wales a total ban. You can go on the RSPCA and Born Free web sites and get information on : www.rspca.org.uk and www.bornfree.org.uk.
Please help stop the abuse and suffering. Thanks


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## angry bob (Jan 25, 2006)

Isn't it more a case of ending cruelty to animals in circuses (or anywhere)?

Is there something fundamentally wrong with the use of animals for entertainment? If there is then hadn't you better call for a ban on horse racing, dog racing, hunting, fishing, animals in movies, etc, etc.?


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## ZIZI (Jan 25, 2006)

angry bob said:
			
		

> Isn't it more a case of ending cruelty to animals in circuses (or anywhere)?
> 
> Is there something fundamentally wrong with the use of animals for entertainment? If there is then hadn't you better call for a ban on horse racing, dog racing, hunting, fishing, animals in movies, etc, etc.?



Look on the web site and you tell me if there is someting fundamentally wrong? The use of all animals for human entertainment is wrong. But that was not what I was asking. If you take time to read what both orgainisations are asking then maybe you will have a full and better understanding of what is being asked. You will also see that animal welfare organisations are all asking for the animal welfare bill to be changed. Read and get the facts my friend before you answer the threads.


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## Ranu (Jan 25, 2006)

Neither of the websites you posted have anything about Circuses on their campaign pages.


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## angry bob (Jan 25, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Look on the web site and you tell me if there is someting fundamentally wrong? The use of all animals for human entertainment is wrong. But that was not what I was asking. If you take time to read what both orgainisations are asking then maybe you will have a full and better understanding of what is being asked. You will also see that animal welfare organisations are all asking for the animal welfare bill to be changed. Read and get the facts my friend before you answer the threads.





> Many of these animals are regularly made to perform tricks and manoeuvres unrepresentative of natural behaviour.



How is that different from teaching my dog to sit?



> The Born Free Foundation and the RSPCA present compelling evidence in the report that the welfare of wild animals in the circus cannot be satisfactorily guaranteed due to the operational constraints – travelling, performance, loading and unloading – of circus life.



Surely the same operational constraints apply to racehorses?



> "I am appalled that in this day and age we have to resort to the exploitation of wild animals in this way for so-called entertainment. Animals should be admired for their achievements in the context of their natural habitat and not made the objects of ridicule," says Virginia McKenna, co-founder of the Born Free Foundation.



So again ... how does this not apply to racehorses, greyhounds, zoos, fishing, hunting, etc?




> Shocking footage to accompany the report ...



You could find shocking footage of the way _some_ people treat their pets. This does not make the keeping of pets in general wrong.


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## KeyboardJockey (Jan 25, 2006)

Are we going to have a 'bash the animal rights loonspud' sesh.  Are we? Are we?


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## miss_b (Jan 25, 2006)

> Are we going to have a 'bash the animal rights loonspud' sesh. Are we? Are we?



Probably. That's usually what this sort of thing ends up as. Kinda makes you lose hope in humanity...


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## Ranu (Jan 25, 2006)

miss_b said:
			
		

> Kinda makes you lose hope in humanity...



Or the ability of the campaigners to put their point accross well.


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## KeyboardJockey (Jan 25, 2006)

Ranu said:
			
		

> Or the ability of the campaigners to put their point accross well.



Good point.  I've seen more rows over animal rights etc kick off on here becuase someone has comeon here and started mouthing off about 'animal holocaust' 'stop the pork chop murderers' 'medical experimenters are the eqivilant of Dr Mengle' etc etc and over the top stuff like that.   

There are AR people on here who do debate their point but their voices are drowned by the loonspuds ( anyone remember AR236598745632514145 or whatever their handle was   )


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## angry bob (Jan 25, 2006)

miss_b said:
			
		

> Probably. That's usually what this sort of thing ends up as. Kinda makes you lose hope in humanity...




Yeah ... this is the thing that makes me lose hope in humanity.  








http://www.archives.gov/research/ww2/photos/images/ww2-178.jpg


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## Orang Utan (Jan 25, 2006)

Oh come on Zizi, it's just a bit of fun.

Look at the bear dancing! Isn't is funny?
Look - a tiger jumping through a hoop? Haha.
Anything that parades dogs with hats on is gotta be good/


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## ZIZI (Jan 25, 2006)

Mad Bob-oh sorry angry Bob-Oh my God. The Animal Welfare Bill is for ALL ANIMALS INCLUDING THE MISTREATMENT OF DOMESTIC ANIMALS!
If you are going to be pedantic just to try and make a point and be amusing then you really must be a very sad individual.

Again I say go on to the web sites, click on campaigns and you will see it is not just about wild animals being used to entertain neandrethals.

If you think that performing animals are funny then that really says a lot about you as a person.

If you don't want to write a letter in support of the Animal Welfare Bill then don't. But don't slag someone off just for the sake of slagging them off to get attention for your obviously very sad lives. 

If you saw an animal being beaten regardless of whether they are wild or  domesticated I suppose you would just walk by and say tough shit. Or would you want to try and do something about it? What is the point in just coming on threads to slag other people off for wanting to change something. Why don't you put your comments on paper in support of the welfare bill it only costs the price of a postage stamp.

I don't belong to any animal rights organisation, I m just an ordinary person who gives a shit about my fellow man being allowed to abuse animals. And just for information, I also give a shit about my fellow man killing and abusing other Man,woman and children.

The request was simple. Why be so bloody minded.


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## ZIZI (Jan 25, 2006)

http://www.bornfree.org.uk/circus/anne1.shtml

http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RSPCA/RSPCARedirect&pg=CampaignsHomepage


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## socialistcelt (Jan 25, 2006)

Thanks for the links ZIZI. They are good campaigns. We do need to change this antiquated bill. Britain is supposed to be an animal loving nation and yet as soon as the circus comes to town parents drag their kids along just to see the pretty animals with all the ooohs an ahhhhs.

If only they could see the conditions these animals had to endure. 

I do understand what you are saying Angry Bob. But if you go on the links it is not just about stopping circuses from using wild animals. Go on it and see for yourself.

I for one have already sent my support as I have for many worthwhile campaigns. It wasn't painful at all.


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## KeyboardJockey (Jan 25, 2006)

Surely the main issue is the conditions that the animals are kept in.  If the conditions are fair and reasonable then why not have animals in circuses?


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## Orang Utan (Jan 25, 2006)

How is a bear on a bike not funny?
Haha look at him:





It would be even funnier if he had a hat with a propeller on it


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## Orang Utan (Jan 25, 2006)




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## angry bob (Jan 25, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Mad Bob-oh sorry angry Bob-Oh my God. The Animal Welfare Bill is for ALL ANIMALS INCLUDING THE MISTREATMENT OF DOMESTIC ANIMALS!
> If you are going to be pedantic just to try and make a point and be amusing then you really must be a very sad individual.



I didn't say anything amusing. The title of your thread is "end the use of wild animals in circuses" is it not? It _does not_ say "end the mistreatment of all animals" does it?



> Again I say go on to the web sites, click on campaigns and you will see it is not just about wild animals being used to entertain neandrethals.
> 
> If you think that performing animals are funny then that really says a lot about you as a person.



I don't think its funny. But I have fond memories of seeing acrobats perform on the back of horses as a child. And also of dolphins and killer whales doing all sorts of stuff ... not at circuses admittedly but its the same principle. If you have any info on why this type of thing is _neccessarily_ cruel to animals then lets hear it.



> If you don't want to write a letter in support of the Animal Welfare Bill then don't. But don't slag someone off just for the sake of slagging them off to get attention for your obviously very sad lives.



How was I slagging you off? I was trying to engage you in discussion. Don't be so touchy.



> If you saw an animal being beaten regardless of whether they are wild or  domesticated I suppose you would just walk by and say tough shit. Or would you want to try and do something about it? What is the point in just coming on threads to slag other people off for wanting to change something. Why don't you put your comments on paper in support of the welfare bill it only costs the price of a postage stamp.



Of course I wouldn't. I don't believe in cruelty to animals. My point was that circuses are not _neccessarily_ cruel.



> I don't belong to any animal rights organisation, I m just an ordinary person who gives a shit about my fellow man being allowed to abuse animals. And just for information, I also give a shit about my fellow man killing and abusing other Man,woman and children.



Good for you. (Really)



> The request was simple. Why be so bloody minded.



Because I am not convinced that circuses are _necessarily_ cruel to animals. And I'd hate to see them banned cause of the views of someone who thinks "Animals should (only) be admired for their achievements in the context of their natural habitat". For then it is only a small step to banning all sorts of activities involving animals such as keeping pets and racing horses.


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## angry bob (Jan 25, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

>




I'm assuming sarcasm here.

Why is training dogs to perform tricks cruel? How is it fundamentally different from teaching them to sit, fetch sticks, etc?


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## Orang Utan (Jan 25, 2006)

They love it.


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## angry bob (Jan 25, 2006)

socialistcelt said:
			
		

> Thanks for the links ZIZI. I do understand what you are saying Angry Bob. But if you go on the links it is not just about stopping circuses from using wild animals. Go on it and see for yourself.




But it _does_ seek to ban the use of animals in circuses regardless of their treatment.


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## angry bob (Jan 25, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> They love it.



What?

Again assuming that what you meant to say was 'they hate it' then ... well ... bollocks, as you say in the UK.

My dog loves fetching sticks. He also like playing soccer ... much like my son.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 25, 2006)

Dogs love it - the love playing games, they love dressing up in sunglasses in hats, anything to please the master. 
Cats don't - which is why you never see them in circuses.
Er...apart from the big ones.


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## angry bob (Jan 25, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Dogs love it - the love playing games, they love dressing up in sunglasses in hats, anything to please the master.
> Cats don't - which is why you never see them in circuses.
> Er...apart from the big ones.



So your picture of dogs performing at circuses was an attempt to illustrate what exactly?

So in your view it depends on an animals species as to whether or not it is cruel for it to perform for human entertainment?

How about cats in movies?

What about the squirrels in 'Charlie and the Chocolate Factory'?


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## Orang Utan (Jan 25, 2006)

angry bob said:
			
		

> So your picture of dogs performing at circuses was an attempt to illustrate what exactly?


That it's funny to see animals do things they're not supposed to.



			
				angry bob said:
			
		

> So in your view it depends on an animals species as to whether or not it is cruel for it to perform for human entertainment?


Not sure I follow you. I just think performing animals are funny, especially bears on bikes. With hats on. Whether it's cruel or not is irrelevant to the point I was making



			
				angry bob said:
			
		

> How about cats in movies?


Not as funny as dogs. Didn't like Cats & Dogs cos the cats were portrayed as the baddies   



			
				angry bob said:
			
		

> What about the squirrels in 'Charlie and the Chocolate Factory'?


Brilliant. Not real though.


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## angry bob (Jan 25, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> That it's funny to see animals do things they're not supposed to.
> 
> Not sure I follow you. I just think performing animals are funny, especially bears on bikes. With hats on. Whether it's cruel or not is irrelevant to the point I was making
> 
> ...




Ah well ... I assumed sarcasm ... although perhaps this is sarcasm. Who can tell?

Of course cats are the baddies.

I believe the squirrels were very real and highly trained.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 25, 2006)

angry bob said:
			
		

> I believe the squirrels were very real and highly trained.


I doubt that very much indeed.
In fact they look very CGI to me.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 25, 2006)

angry bob said:
			
		

> Ah well ... I assumed sarcasm ... although perhaps this is sarcasm. Who can tell?


I'm never sarcastic when it matters


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## Orang Utan (Jan 25, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> I doubt that very much indeed.
> In fact they look very CGI to me.


Actually a quick Google finds that it is actually a mixture of CGI, animatronics and real animals - the nut cracking bit is obviously not real though.


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## ZIZI (Jan 26, 2006)

Have you ever seen a Tiger pacing back and forth in its prison. Have you ever seen an Elephant shackled. Have you ever seen Lions put in cages with Tigers. Have you ever seen Orangutans and Chimps dressed in human clothing. Have you ever seen Orangs and Chimps with their teeth pulled out to stop them defending themselves against their cruel 'masters' whilst they are being beaten. Have you seen the inadequate food they are given. Have you seen the inadequate cages they live in 12 months a year every year of their lives. Have you ever seen the broken bones which have not healed properly because they are not afforded the luxery of vets. Have you ever seen the scars on their bodies from relentless beatings they have to endure being forced to perform tricks until they are beaten into submission??????

Having a dog and teaching it to sit and fetch. Do you beat it until it OBEYS you????  if you don't Then THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE of owning a dog that you love and care for compared to circuses who are in it for profit and gain and who don't give a toss for the animals.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 26, 2006)

Yeah, but look:


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## Orang Utan (Jan 26, 2006)

They can even play ice hockey:


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## Pingu (Jan 26, 2006)

angry bob said:
			
		

> Isn't it more a case of ending cruelty to animals in circuses (or anywhere)?
> 
> Is there something fundamentally wrong with the use of animals for entertainment? If there is then hadn't you better call for a ban on horse racing, dog racing, hunting, fishing, animals in movies, etc, etc.?




of those i would actually support a ban on dog racing

unless massive reforms were made.


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## ZIZI (Jan 26, 2006)

*Orang Utan-not*

Orang utan
I know why you saying the things you are. Its because you are probably devoid of the human ability to show compassion, intelligence, humour and logic, you are also an ignorant individual who is not worthy of my time and thought. Your personality is one that gets overlooked by society and your only ability is that you are able to take the time to look for pictures on the web and download them here. Get a life and a better name because you insult the very animal you took it from-they are actually very intelligent.
You are a misfit.


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## ddraig (Jan 26, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Orang utan
> I know why you saying the things you are. Its because you are probably devoid of the human ability to show compassion, intelligence, humour and logic, you are also an ignorant individual who is not worthy of my time and thought. Your personality is one that gets overlooked by society and your only ability is that you are able to take the time to look for pictures on the web and download them here. Get a life and a better name because you insult the very animal you took it from-they are actually very intelligent.
> You are a misfit.



i think he's on a windup. he's a very naughty boy but none of the things you claim so harshly. and he's called that coz he's orange, go look at his ugly mug on that thread.
before i fight some of these bullies for you ZIZI, may i ask if you are a vegi?


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## Orang Utan (Jan 26, 2006)

Gotcha!


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## ddraig (Jan 26, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Gotcha!


naw sling yer ook back to brixton


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## ZIZI (Jan 26, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> i think he's on a windup. he's a very naughty boy but none of the things you claim so harshly. and he's called that coz he's orange, go look at his ugly mug on that thread.
> before i fight some of these bullies for you ZIZI, may i ask if you are a vegi?


Yes I am. I stopped eating meat last year, so i am still fairly new at it. Although My body went into a bit of a decline at first I must say I feel totally healthy and able to hold my head up high on these kind of issues.


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## ddraig (Jan 26, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Yes I am. I stopped eating meat last year, so i am still fairly new at it. Although My body went into a bit of a decline at first I must say I feel totally healthy and able to hold my head up high on these kind of issues.


   good luck


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## angry bob (Jan 26, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Actually a quick Google finds that it is actually a mixture of CGI, animatronics and real animals - the nut cracking bit is obviously not real though.



Yeah. I saw some 'making of' show and they were some pretty highly trained squirrels. That bit where they pushed the girl's dad into the hole was real!


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## angry bob (Jan 26, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Have you ever seen a Tiger pacing back and forth in its prison. Have you ever seen an Elephant shackled. Have you ever seen Lions put in cages with Tigers. Have you ever seen Orangutans and Chimps dressed in human clothing. Have you ever seen Orangs and Chimps with their teeth pulled out to stop them defending themselves against their cruel 'masters' whilst they are being beaten. Have you seen the inadequate food they are given. Have you seen the inadequate cages they live in 12 months a year every year of their lives. Have you ever seen the broken bones which have not healed properly because they are not afforded the luxery of vets. Have you ever seen the scars on their bodies from relentless beatings they have to endure being forced to perform tricks until they are beaten into submission??????



Have you??

I believe beating animals and the like is already illegal in the UK no?

Can you demonstrate that all circuses necessarily treat there animals as you describe? Because if not I don't see the need for more laws.




> Having a dog and teaching it to sit and fetch. Do you beat it until it OBEYS you????  if you don't Then THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE of owning a dog that you love and care for compared to circuses who are in it for profit and gain and who don't give a toss for the animals.



Some people treat their dogs horribly. It doesn't mean that we all do. You could easily demonstrate a wealth of cruel behavior by dog owners. It doesnt necessarily represent the majority though.

As far as it goes I would wholeheartedly support some kind of inspection system to ensure the things you describe don't happen.


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## angry bob (Jan 26, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Have you ever seen Orangutans and Chimps dressed in human clothing. Have you ever seen Orangs and Chimps with their teeth pulled out to stop them defending themselves against their cruel 'masters' whilst they are being beaten. Have you seen the inadequate food they are given..


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 26, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Have you ever seen a Tiger pacing back and forth in its prison. Have you ever seen an Elephant shackled. Have you ever seen Lions put in cages with Tigers. Have you ever seen Orangutans and Chimps dressed in human clothing. Have you ever seen Orangs and Chimps with their teeth pulled out to stop them defending themselves against their cruel 'masters' whilst they are being beaten. Have you seen the inadequate food they are given. Have you seen the inadequate cages they live in 12 months a year every year of their lives. Have you ever seen the broken bones which have not healed properly because they are not afforded the luxery of vets. Have you ever seen the scars on their bodies from relentless beatings they have to endure being forced to perform tricks until they are beaten into submission??????
> 
> Having a dog and teaching it to sit and fetch. Do you beat it until it OBEYS you????  if you don't Then THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE of owning a dog that you love and care for compared to circuses who are in it for profit and gain and who don't give a toss for the animals.



Funny though, I have three children and weve been to several circuses in wales over the past 10 years. At none have there been any wild annimals, in fact in one there were no animals of any description.

So since this is in the wales forum and if you have a relevant point to make about a particular circus or circuses happening in wales could you fill us in on the spcifics please?

Id like to know where to avoid taking my children to if there are any such circuses operating here in wales. If there arent then perhaps you should find somewhere a little more general to put your arguments?


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 26, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Orang utan
> I know why you saying the things you are. Its because you are probably devoid of the human ability to show compassion, intelligence, humour and logic, you are also an ignorant individual who is not worthy of my time and thought. Your personality is one that gets overlooked by society and your only ability is that you are able to take the time to look for pictures on the web and download them here. Get a life and a better name because you insult the very animal you took it from-they are actually very intelligent.
> You are a misfit.



OOH 15 posts and youve made SO many assumptions  

sadly youve got it wrong but there we are   resorting to insults is lazy debating


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## ZIZI (Jan 26, 2006)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> OOH 15 posts and youve made SO many assumptions
> 
> sadly youve got it wrong but there we are   resorting to insults is lazy debating


My argument is based on circuses which use animals as part of their entertainment. I do not object to circuses that have no animals. I also have children, have also been to such circuses and we have all had a fabulous time. It is hard to pin down circuses because they are not based anywhere in particular because as you know already, circuses travel. They hide their identity if they have been guilty of any infringment by changing their names and performances; this is also what is worrying the agencies who risk their own safety going under cover to tape the true reality behind the scenes.
Has anyone ever heard about Mary Chipperfield's prosecution? That was the turning point in hastening the decline in circuses that use wild animals. It exposed practices that shocked a naive public. Has anyone heard of Anne, the 'performing Elephant'? she suffers from arthritis; the RSPCA asserts that it would be in her best interest to be retired becasue the duty of care cannot be met in the environment of a travelling circus (Bobby Roberts Super Circus).

My original thread was just one clause of the Animal Welfare Bill.

Misshissyfit-what have I got wrong? That I have 15 posts so I am not entitled to make assumptions? What are the requirements then? you accuse me of throwing insults yet reading back on your posts- uhh- Do you live in a Glass House by any chance?


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## ZIZI (Jan 26, 2006)

angry bob said:
			
		

>


 Which one is you


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## ZIZI (Jan 26, 2006)

angry bob said:
			
		

> Have you??
> 
> I believe beating animals and the like is already illegal in the UK no?
> 
> ...



I have seen undercover video footage which led to prosecution. The beating of animals is against the law upto a point whic is why the presnt Animal Wefare Bill has gone back to parliament for changes. To train particulary wild animals they are beaten into submission to perform act that are not natural to them. Elephants are shackled and beaten with metal rods, hook ripeed through their ears and electris shock prods are pressed into their bodies. Tigers are whipped and beaten again with metal rods and forced to jump through fire which is instinctively a natural fear. 
Yes some people do treat their dogs horribly and if cought or reported they are prosecuted. It is the minority as it is with most things but does that mean we have to turn our backs on the ones that need our help?

For your last comment. Thank you.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 26, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> My argument is based on circuses which use animals as part of their entertainment. I do not object to circuses that have no animals. I also have children, have also been to such circuses and we have all had a fabulous time. It is hard to pin down circuses because they are not based anywhere in particular because as you know already, circuses travel. They hide their identity if they have been guilty of any infringment by changing their names and performances; this is also what is worrying the agencies who risk their own safety going under cover to tape the true reality behind the scenes.
> Has anyone ever heard about Mary Chipperfield's prosecution? That was the turning point in hastening the decline in circuses that use wild animals. It exposed practices that shocked a naive public. Has anyone heard of Anne, the 'performing Elephant'? she suffers from arthritis; the RSPCA asserts that it would be in her best interest to be retired becasue the duty of care cannot be met in the environment of a travelling circus (Bobby Roberts Super Circus).
> 
> My original thread was just one clause of the Animal Welfare Bill.
> ...



I dont throw insults around. please, feel free to quote anywhere Ive done that as you have, assumptions? youve posted 15 posts and yet seem to think you have the measure of any of the people posting hereincluding me and orang utan
now
If you wouldnt mind: a breakdown of particular circuses which have wild animals in which are performing in wales


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## ZIZI (Jan 26, 2006)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> I dont throw insults around. please, feel free to quote anywhere Ive done that as you have, assumptions? youve posted 15 posts and yet seem to think you have the measure of any of the people posting hereincluding me and orang utan
> now
> If you wouldnt mind: a breakdown of particular circuses which have wild animals in which are performing in wales



Oh please, this thread is not about you, its about a good cause.
But since Im on the subject-Trolling fucknut-troll comes to mind just for starters.
When the circuses start to tour again, as at present they are in their winter quarters which consists of a dark dingy cage measuring smaller that a jail cell I will let you know or better still, pick up the campaign and look out for that special offer one night only half price tickets ad which I am sure you will take up. Or, you could do something really useful like go on the web sites and read read read all you need to know.
As for Orang Utan he is just a wind up and perhaps that is why you have things in common with him.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 26, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Oh please, this thread is not about you, its about a good cause.
> But since Im on the subject-Trolling fucknut-troll comes to mind just for starters.
> When the circuses start to tour again, as at present they are in their winter quarters which consists of a dark dingy cage measuring smaller that a jail cell I will let you know or better still, pick up the campaign and look out for that special offer one night only half price tickets ad which I am sure you will take up. Or, you could do something really useful like go on the web sites and read read read all you need to know.
> As for Orang Utan he is just a wind up and perhaps that is why you have things in common with him.



Its not about me? youve just said i throw insults around so youve made it about me. Please- show me where Ive insulted people.
Youevalso made insulting posts about orang utans character and personality and after 15 posts? No I dont think you can make those assumptions or throw insults about.


Now since this thread is about wales and youve raised the issues and want us to write to the AM's please show me where there are circuses with wild animals appearing in wales
Thats a genuine question, youve asked us to raise this with AM's YOU should be providing us with evidence to back your request


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## lewislewis (Jan 26, 2006)

Do circuses with wild animals exist in Wales    I've never seen one so i'd be interested whether there are any,

Edit- Definitely not with bears or orang-utan's!


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## angry bob (Jan 26, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> I have seen undercover video footage which led to prosecution. The beating of animals is against the law upto a point whic is why the presnt Animal Wefare Bill has gone back to parliament for changes. To train particulary wild animals they are beaten into submission to perform act that are not natural to them. Elephants are shackled and beaten with metal rods, hook ripeed through their ears and electris shock prods are pressed into their bodies. Tigers are whipped and beaten again with metal rods and forced to jump through fire which is instinctively a natural fear.
> Yes some people do treat their dogs horribly and if cought or reported they are prosecuted. It is the minority as it is with most things but does that mean we have to turn our backs on the ones that need our help?
> 
> For your last comment. Thank you.



On the Indian subcontinent elephants are considered domestic animals. They perform work in much the same way as europeans use horses. Is that (necessarily) cruel?

Are _all_ elephants in circuses treated as you describe?

I'm inclined to agree with regard to big cats. Are they common in UK circuses? They are not here (in US).

I'm fully against cruelty to animals (or humans) but I remain to be convinced that circuses are always cruel to the animals within them.

I also hate the idea of banning things. Its the libetarian in me I suppose.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 26, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Do circuses with wild animals exist in Wales    I've never seen one so i'd be interested whether there are any,
> 
> Edit- Definitely not with bears or orang-utan's!



Ive not seen any, Im stillwaiting for an answer on this one myself


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## Orang Utan (Jan 26, 2006)

I've only just realised this thread is in the Wales forum! Fuck knows why!

LilMiss - don't worry - I'm not offended by Zizi's allegations. Water of a ducks back!


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 26, 2006)

Im still waiting for an answer as to which circuses in particular are appearing in Wales which Feature wild animals.
Genuinely, if there are any I would write to my AM and ask that they be stopped but before i raise an issue of concern with my AM I;d like to be sure it was relevant to the welsh assembly, given that these people are so busy


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## ddraig (Jan 26, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> I've only just realised this thread is in the Wales forum! Fuck knows why!
> 
> LilMiss - don't worry - I'm not offended by Zizi's allegations. Water of a ducks back!



ahem doofus! 
post 37 

naw, git, go on git back there to tha big city forum


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## ZIZI (Jan 26, 2006)

Bobby Roberts Circus
Great British Circus 
(Peter) Jolly's Circus

These are the three remaining British Circuses that have wild animals in their shows. There are believed to be 33 wild animals in these 3 circuses-I have a break down if you wish.
Peter Jollys circus is advertising for more wild animals in his 2006 UK tour-which could include Wales.
They use the Welsh ports to travel to Ireland in which there are at least a further three resident circuses which travel on a regular basis to Northern Ireland whcih means that the annual resident and temporary number of wild animals in circuses may be higher. Also you will then get a large number of circuses which come in to the UK from Europe so again the number could increase dramatically without warning..

It is not about if Wales has a had or will have a circus with wild animals it is about prevention. 

If you really don't give a damn then stop putting posts on this thread.

If you wish to write to your AM then great do it. The RSPCA and Born Free Foundation HAVE ASKED THE ASSEMBLY TO BACK THEIR CAMPAIGN. (They were actually there on Tuesday)The more people that write to their AM's, MP's. Born Free Foundation and the RSPCA the better.

Stop giving me a bloody hard time for just attempting to raise a little awareness.

Missyhissyfit-who the hell made you in charge of making assumptions about people who have not as many threads as you-ooooh big bloody deal. You know you don't have to come on here and make posts just to be part of the' Ive made more posts than you gang' Grow up and get a bloody grip. I do not have to justify myself to you or anyone else, who the hell are you any way. If I want to insult someone for putting mindless comments on a thread just for the sake of being a wind up then I will, what are you my mother? - I shudder at the thought


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## ZIZI (Jan 26, 2006)

angry bob said:
			
		

> On the Indian subcontinent elephants are considered domestic animals. They perform work in much the same way as europeans use horses. Is that (necessarily) cruel?
> 
> Are _all_ elephants in circuses treated as you describe?
> 
> ...



Actually yes there are animals in American Circuses.
There have been two cases in 2005 where Elephants escaped and trampled their workers killing one of them.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 26, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> ahem doofus!
> post 37
> 
> naw, git, go on git back there to tha big city forum


Duur - I don't look in individual forums, just new posts, so it's easy to miss


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 26, 2006)

Dear dear. Is it difficult to work out that with only 15 posts to your name you are rather unuqualified to make any judgement on orang utan or anyone else here?
so you respond ooooh BIg Bloody deal, grow up etc. 

Could I refer you to this clause??
. Racism/personal abuse/defamatory postings/gratuitous swearing etc is not allowed. We welcome lively and robust debate and have no problem with swearing (where appropriate) but posters using these forums to re-enact infantile playground battles will be clipped around the ear by the milk monitor. Please respect people's privacy and refrain from posting up personal details without their permission. Do not piss about with user names or refer to people by their real names (unless they already appear in their user name, of course). Threads that descend into personal insult-a-thons will be binned. 

Taken from the FAQ's which youve signed up to effectively by joining

The wales forum is generally a very friendly forum, far more so than others
Youve shown up here and basically people who have questioned you or the relevance of what youve posted ( given that this is the WALES forum) youve abused.

I think perhaps your behaviour this afternoon verges on the 'infantile' as detailed above. My my how DARE we question the relevance of your thread to this forum?

As it is youve provided a little more info than ( insert cause I am passionate about support me now or fuck off/insert chosen abuse/allegtion) which is what you were doing earlier.

I for one am interested but wanted more information on its relevance, why? becuase when there were wild animals in a circus in swansea when i was at school i did go and demonstrate.However if you want me to write to my AM I want to make sure its relevant to their remit before I do so. If I learn that a circus youve named above is going to visit wales by all means I will write to my AM. As it is if those circuses named above geuinely have wild animals in I think possibly DEFRA and the MP's would be a better bet than contacting my AM at this point about the matter.Nobody has had a go at you for raising awareness- I questioned your judgement of another board member and the assumptions you made about them and the abuse that followed. Or can you not see that?????

You wont get very far on these boards abusing anyone who dares question what you say, takes the piss ( becuase people do, its called humour) or doesnt concur exactly with your view ( much as youve done this afternoon) becuase that ban/bin button will go into overdrive.

So there you have it thats what 4 years on these here boards has taught me and what you, after 15 posts have yet to learn and yes I do have every right to say it

Now, Im still waiting for you to show me where Ive abused people... either show me or apologise please


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## In Bloom (Jan 27, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Have you ever seen a Tiger pacing back and forth in its prison. Have you ever seen an Elephant shackled. Have you ever seen Lions put in cages with Tigers. Have you ever seen Orangutans and Chimps dressed in human clothing. Have you ever seen Orangs and Chimps with their teeth pulled out to stop them defending themselves against their cruel 'masters' whilst they are being beaten. Have you seen the inadequate food they are given. Have you seen the inadequate cages they live in 12 months a year every year of their lives. Have you ever seen the broken bones which have not healed properly because they are not afforded the luxery of vets. Have you ever seen the scars on their bodies from relentless beatings they have to endure being forced to perform tricks until they are beaten into submission??????


I'm sorry, I really can't help but laugh, I know I shouldn't, but I really can't believe this shit.  You talk about all these horrible things being done to animals (which you have yet to show _necessarily_ have to be involved in the use of animals in circuses) and then you throw "Orangutans and Chimps dressed in human clothing" in there


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## Orang Utan (Jan 27, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Have you ever seen Orangutans and Chimps dressed in human clothing.


Every day


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## Pingu (Jan 27, 2006)

you know

i am pro animal rights\welfare

i really do believe in my beliefs on this

i do stuff about it



BUT


some AR types really piss me off. its either attention seeking "me me look at me!" I am campaigning to save the gerbil arnt I so cool .. help me its the right thing to do... or pissing off the very people who can actually do something about it.

no wonder small children in the street look at us AR types and point and laugh...

get a grip. rather than pissing people off who are likely to be activists and therefore more likely to be willing to help try to engage with them and get them to help.

and anyhow

wtf is this doing in cymru?


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## ZIZI (Jan 27, 2006)

So what is the format here? I post a thread-(I didn't know you had to have a qualification or more than 15 posts and not allowed to read other peoples profiles to assume an opinion that someone is making comments just to be a wind up and you are not supposed to return the sarcasim or insults I could go on and on) on what I consider a perfectly good cause, I also give details of links and web sites for you to get more information and still I am given the third degree by someone who considers herself to be an expert on everything. Because I am a relatively new member who has not posted much or indeed started a thread I am not supposed to form my own opinion or assumptions on people who obviously just enjoy making flippant remarks? I mean come on lmhf tell me, is this what you resort to, picking on new members because they want to have a say on anything they may feel passionate about? Do you do this to all new threaders or is it just the chosen few? Are people not to make 'flippant' remarks back in defence of the suject they have posted? what are you, some crusader? some defender of people who can give it but can't take it? My dear girl, you really do need to get a grip take a long look at yourself. You say you have children, what do you do with them, because you appear to spend so mush time posting they are probably starved of your attention. Go and spend some time with them instead of causing an argument on here which was totally unecessary in the first place. If you had gone on the links you will have seen all that was necessary. Do you think for one minute the RSPCA or the Born Free Foundation make up these stories? Make up the evidence? I don't know LMHF if you think I am a part of these organisations, i m not, I received and took notice of information I received from the RSPCA because Its one of the charities I contribute to. I then thought to myself, I know how I can raise more awareness of this campaign I can post a thread on Urban75 because there are some decent people on it who I thought give a shit. Instead al I got it an interrogation on how, what when and who. I gave the website links because I made it clear or so I thought that it caontained all the information one would need to form an agreed opinion that circuses with wild animals should be stopped. I don't like any kind of animal abuse but because these animals are fast being killed off and taken from their natural habitat and made to live in conditions which doesn't even afford them basic care I arrived at the decision which I am now trying to defend. LMHF if you are offended by me finding it necessary to defend myself against your rather narcissistic comments then I will apologise if that makes you feel better.

Now could I ask you to read both web sites and after if you don't agree with me then lets beg to differ. I have attempted to draw attention to good campaigns about animal abuse. Please form your opinions from the information on the sites and oranisations that are running the campaigns and not but my own attempt.

Am I part of an initiation test here, how am I doing so far? Have I passed yet?


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## ZIZI (Jan 27, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Every day



 I ve got children. You are absolutely no problem at all. You are becoming funnier by the minute.


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## KeyboardJockey (Jan 27, 2006)

Pingu said:
			
		

> you know
> 
> i am pro animal rights\welfare
> 
> ...



Sensible post. Pingu.  The ranters give those who want to improve animal welfare a very bad name.  Normal people in my area if the idiots from SHAC or whatever set up a stall just call  them scum.


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## Pingu (Jan 27, 2006)

could you use paragraphs please

i started to read but my eyes just refused to go past the second line


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 27, 2006)

Zizi you are doing badly  Im totally with pingu
you defend your insults with more insults 0/10 Im an expert now? No merely trying to point out someone was taking the piss and you either josh back a bit ( youre a noob remember you dont actually know how these boards work) or you ignore.You chose to insult most people will just have gone ZZZZZZZZ time to go.... becuase this is a friendly, piss taking forum. People meet up, go for drinks together etc. 

I think people might have taken you seriously if you hadnt acted like an arse. Rather sad really becuase underneath it all you did have something to say
Might be better to discuss something which actually has relevance to wales here rather than your animals rights stuff, opk so we have AM's doesnt mean we'll write to them just becuase they exist/ you ask them to as a way of publicising your case.
If you'd like to a list of AM's is available through the welsh assembly.



Now if you actually have something to say thats relevant to wales, feel free, were all ears but leave the insults in your playpen and quit the histrionics


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## ZIZI (Jan 27, 2006)

LMHF-But don't you see, it is our problem when they use Welsh ports to travel to Ireland. 
I do understand what yo are saying, that this is a Welsh Forum. But are  we only to discuss and be concerned about issues in Wales? If the Cicuses come to Wales what would you do, go and protest? wouldn't you want to prevent them from coming to Wales in the first place? If more people write and show Parliament that these circuses should be banned and Wild animals should not be used for entertainment then surely that is better than doing nothing.


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## ZIZI (Jan 27, 2006)

Pingu said:
			
		

> could you use paragraphs please
> 
> i started to read but my eyes just refused to go past the second line


Sorry, 

I am

Just

a

little

Wound

Up.


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## KeyboardJockey (Jan 27, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> LMHF-But don't you see, it is our problem when they use Welsh ports to travel to Ireland.
> I do understand what yo are saying, that this is a Welsh Forum. But are  we only to discuss and be concerned about issues in Wales? If the Cicuses come to Wales what would you do, go and protest? wouldn't you want to prevent them from coming to Wales in the first place? If more people write and show Parliament that these circuses should be banned and Wild animals should not be used for entertainment then surely that is better than doing nothing.



There is no system of internal passports in the UK.  If they don't use the Welsh ports then they will use another port with probably a longer more stressful seacrossing.  If the welsh assembly did this then ports like Stranraer in scotland and maybe the merseyside and west country ports would benefit.

I've not problem with wild animals being used in circuses but I do have issue on how they are kept and trained.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 27, 2006)

You need some Vitamin A


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## socialistcelt (Jan 27, 2006)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> There is no system of internal passports in the UK.  If they don't use the Welsh ports then they will use another port with probably a longer more stressful seacrossing.  If the welsh assembly did this then ports like Stranraer in scotland and maybe the merseyside and west country ports would benefit.
> 
> I've not problem with wild animals being used in circuses but I do have issue on how they are kept and trained.



I think that is all part of why the ARW organisations wants the Animal Welfare Bill changed. Its the cruelty behind the scenes which is obscene. Animals are caged and beaten all in the name of training. 

I ve signed up to the campaign, its not very nice reading but it is worth going on the web sites.

ZIZI try not to take it all personally, I haven't got many posts either and I ve been targeted as a new poster, just take it all in your stride and carry on posting.


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## Pingu (Jan 27, 2006)

hi zizi

you also need to look at the bigger picture.

Ireland has a horrible situation with respect to cannine welfare. the greyhound racing industry in particular has a really shit reputaion with thousands of animals dying each year...

someone not that long ago campaigned to prevent the transport of dogs and other animals to welsh ports in order to proeven dogs going to madrid (an even worse place for an ex racer to go as things there are even more shitty). What they didnt look at was the rescue transports that aslo used the same ferrys. As a result the dogs that could be saved were nearly condemed.

the person campaigning for the blanket ban on animal transport hadnt even considered the knock on effect on other animal welfare issues. They had their own agenda and intheir blinkered world they were doing good... no thought for all the others who were quietly just getting on with the job of trying to change underlying attitudes.

Rather than banning the transport the effort really needs to go into the education of normal people about conditions, treatment and the general ethics of using animals in entertainment. 

This is where some people involved in AR will fall down. By being passionate and zealous they will alienate the very people who can do something. If noral people see the use of performing animals as bad then it will stop. By crying out for banning and tellin people they dont understand all that will happen is people think "oh another loony AR type".

its a slow process changing attitudes and while you are doing it what you need is stuff to improve the conditions.

for examples of the damage done by over zealousness on behalf of AR all you need to do is look on here. People who will rant and rave against anythkng from the price of rizlas through to trying to get blair crucified - and doing it with passion - take the piss out of nearly any AR related thread. These are people who in theory are the easy ones to bring on board, they already have the passionand the willingness to do something for their beliefs. Yet the AR loons - no other word for it - have fucked things up so badly with holier than thou attitudes that its now a big uphill battle on any AR realted issue.

this is where the beiong a noob isnt helping you. you dont know about all the others who have preceded you and made it a very stoney ground to sow your seeds.


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## ZIZI (Jan 27, 2006)

Pingu said:
			
		

> hi zizi
> 
> you also need to look at the bigger picture.
> 
> ...



Thanks

I take it on board. I just thought I was doing some good by raising awareness of the campaign. After seeing video footage it made me sick. Yes I was aware og these organisations but actually seeing it for the first time makes you kind of sick to the stomach. I guess I am still a bit emotional about it all.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 27, 2006)

I'm still really struggling to care about an elephant having arthritis.


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## socialistcelt (Jan 27, 2006)

ZIZI- don't be sorry of your convictions. There is nothing wrong with being passionate about issues. People on this forum sometimes forget that they were new posters once. Its a bit like learner drivers. Everyone  honks at you for slowing them up and daring to stall in front of them. Just be gracious and he who waits shall be rewarded.


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## socialistcelt (Jan 27, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> I'm still really struggling to care about an elephant having arthritis.


Don't post here then.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 27, 2006)

socialistcelt said:
			
		

> Don't post here then.



posting my opinion on animal rights on an animal rights thread, god forbid.


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## ZIZI (Jan 27, 2006)

Don't worry, I am not hurt by the comments. Like one of my fellow provocateurs said "its like water off ducks back"


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## ZIZI (Jan 27, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> You need some Vitamin A


 Who me? Does that mean you are beginning to care about me? awww thanks


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## socialistcelt (Jan 27, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> posting my opinion on animal rights on an animal rights thread, god forbid.


Well if you don't really care about a Thread why post on it. Just read your Thread by the way, I was busily looking for info but the editor beat me to it.


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## Pingu (Jan 27, 2006)

slowly slowy catchy monkey (or other simians)





no dont lose the passion or conviction. but pick where you let it show carefully.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 27, 2006)

socialistcelt said:
			
		

> Well if you don't really care about a Thread why post on it. Just read your Thread by the way, I was busily looking for info but the editor beat me to it.



Thanks for the link on the other thread - but I said I don't care about elephants with arthritis, not that I didn't care about the thread. My point being its a fairly trivial thing, even if one is concerned with the wider issue of animal rights.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 27, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> LMHF-But don't you see, it is our problem when they use Welsh ports to travel to Ireland.
> I do understand what yo are saying, that this is a Welsh Forum. But are  we only to discuss and be concerned about issues in Wales? If the Cicuses come to Wales what would you do, go and protest? wouldn't you want to prevent them from coming to Wales in the first place? If more people write and show Parliament that these circuses should be banned and Wild animals should not be used for entertainment then surely that is better than doing nothing.



errrm basically yes thats what the welsh forum is for. Welsh goings on.
If you want help with the transporting of animals via welsh ports ask for that  A huge circus freakshow rant isnt getting your point across very well


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## ZIZI (Jan 27, 2006)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> errrm basically yes thats what the welsh forum is for. Welsh goings on.
> If you want help with the transporting of animals via welsh ports ask for that  A huge circus freakshow rant isnt getting your point across very well


Point taken. Was I really ranting? Anyway at least you are all aware of it now so In a way I did acheive what I set out to in the first place even if I didn't do a good job of it.

Its been an education.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 27, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Point taken. Was I really ranting? Anyway at least you are all aware of it now so In a way I did acheive what I set out to in the first place even if I didn't do a good job of it.
> 
> Its been an education.



Can I ask, zizi - are you and socialistcelt both linked to the Seren site?


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## ZIZI (Jan 27, 2006)

No im not, why? I remember seeing the 'Merthyr Rising' feature on it a while back. I just like reading local issues thats all.


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 27, 2006)

I was wondering about it - not seen it before, is there any sort of organisation associated to it?


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## ZIZI (Jan 27, 2006)

I don't know, they got the Leanne Wood AM web site up on it and they do seem to be profiling her a lot, but I suppose doesn't mean that they are linked to Plaid Cymru. I think its just a site to raise socialist issues.

Why don't you ask them?


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 27, 2006)

Because I'll get 'join, join, join' emails!


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## ZIZI (Jan 27, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> Because I'll get 'join, join, join' emails!



I see what you're saying.


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