# Can work force me to do my first aid training and be a first aider.



## sim667 (Mar 30, 2010)

Ok I know being a first aider is not a big deal at all...... I've done it for years, and tbh was quite relieved when my certificate expired.

Now im being told that I have to be trained as a first aider and I have to be a named first aider for the dept, (even tho no-one else in the same job position that I am is). When I asked if the college has any liability/indemnity insurance, or offer any extra money so we can get our own, then I was told absolutely not.

As i said before, i dont actually mind being a first aider, but what i do object to is telling me its compulsory for me to be a first aider, when i know full well that if i did get sued for cocking up, the institute would not back me up in any way shape or form.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2010)

oh.


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## danny la rouge (Mar 30, 2010)

No, of course they can't.  Your union can advise you on this.  In fact, I'd get in touch asap.


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## TitanSound (Mar 30, 2010)

No employer can force you to do anything.


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## geminisnake (Mar 30, 2010)

Sounds like a crock to me! Is it in your job description or contract?? If it's not tell them to stuff it, if they are not prepared to take the liability risk why the hell should you??
I'd look at legal advise just in case they get stroppy though.


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## sim667 (Mar 30, 2010)

In my contract im required to complete at least 15 hours of continuing professional development, thats the only reason it would benefit me. But as it stand im on a teaching course which will count as 200+ hours of training, so on the basis that they offer no advantage to me (extra pay, or liability insurance) I could refuse to undertake the training.

What does concern me is that in my contract it states


> The institute may expect you at any time to step into any job role as required


So would that clause cover the requirement to be a first aider. Its the worry that I could be putting myself at massive personal financial risk if i was to cock the first aid up on someone, and i know that I would have no back up.

Would this be covered by Employment Law?

I want to get all the facts before I approach my line manager with a definitive 'No answer'. If she's still then persisten Ill ask my union rep to step in.


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## Thraex (Mar 30, 2010)

Doing the training may be compulsory eg Statutory training in the NHS (every year/three years) but they can't make you become a First Aider.


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## sim667 (Mar 30, 2010)

geminisnake said:


> Sounds like a crock to me! Is it in your job description or contract?? If it's not tell them to stuff it, if they are not prepared to take the liability risk why the hell should you??
> I'd look at legal advise just in case they get stroppy though.



Stuff like this happens all the time, they basically want something for nothing out of all of us


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## geminisnake (Mar 30, 2010)

I'm not convinced being the Dept first aider is a job role though. Speak to the union rep asap!!


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## Mr Smin (Mar 30, 2010)

While you're checking out the law, find out just how liable you would be. I reckon not very - as long as you only do things you have been taught.
You might find it's less bother to just go along with things. Since you've done it for years, have a think about how many times it's got you worried about liability in connection with actually doing some first aid.

The heimlich manoeuvre is the only thing I can think of in first aid that's dangerous if you balls it up.


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## sim667 (Mar 30, 2010)

geminisnake said:


> I'm not convinced being the Dept first aider is a job role though. Speak to the union rep asap!!



The issue is the clause in our contract where we can be required to undertake any other role as necessary.

Im going to talk to HR, unless they're prepared to either cover me under the colleges liability insurance, pay for me to have individual liability insurance, or give me the money to take out my own liability insurance, then I'll tell them to naff off and get the union involved.

Nothings ever simple.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 30, 2010)

sim667 said:


> As i said before, i dont actually mind being a first aider, but what i do object to is telling me its compulsory for me to be a first aider, when i know full well that if i did get sued for cocking up, the institute would not back me up in any way shape or form.



Nobody has every been successfully sued for performing first aid and getting it wrong in the UK.

I'd jump at the chance if they are paying, even if you've done first aid course in the past, knowledge fades quickly and you could end saving the life of a family member or friend whilst outside work.


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## sim667 (Mar 30, 2010)

Global_Stoner said:


> Nobody has every been successfully sued for performing first aid and getting it wrong in the UK.
> 
> I'd jump at the chance if they are paying, even if you've done first aid course in the past, knowledge fades quickly and you could end saving the life of a family member or friend whilst outside work.



I just spoke to my mum and she said something similar.

Although every other college ive worked at (about 5 or 6 now) have paid me £500 a year extra for being a first aider.


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## se5 (Mar 30, 2010)

tell them you need extra money or other benefit if you are to do it


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 30, 2010)

Well on that basis, its worth pushing for more cash, but if they refuse to stump up, I'd do it anyway. 

My last place of work took the piss somewhat, we needed one to work there, but they still made us contribute £20 towards the course.

In an ideal world I'd like do a course every year, picking a slightly different one each time, but sadly my employer is unwilling to pay.


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## geminisnake (Mar 30, 2010)

sim667 said:


> Although every other college ive worked at (about 5 or 6 now) have paid me £500 a year extra for being a first aider.



My friend used to be the dept fa and she got a small amount extra too, I thought that was how it worked!


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## colacubes (Mar 30, 2010)

sim667 said:


> I just spoke to my mum and she said something similar.
> 
> Although every other college ive worked at (about 5 or 6 now) have paid me £500 a year extra for being a first aider.



£500!!  I get a whopping £12 a month for being a workplace first aider 

I don't know about the forcing issue but I would say that I've only trained very recently and really enjoyed the course.  Plus it's a very useful skill to have


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## ajdown (Mar 30, 2010)

I'm a first aider, and fire warden, and I get absolutely zero extra for both roles.

Interesting.


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## WWWeed (Mar 30, 2010)

ajdown said:


> I'm a first aider, and fire warden, and I get absolutely zero extra for both roles.
> 
> Interesting.



what if there's a fire and someone needs first aid?

does that mean everyone else is fucked!?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 30, 2010)

You'd clear the building then administer first aid. Not much point treating them in the flames.


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## Stanley Edwards (Mar 30, 2010)

There are people in the World who wouldn't willingly pay to be taught how to save other people's lives?

Jesus fucking Christ!


Perhaps 'they' nominated you to cull the redundancy list?


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## feyr (Mar 30, 2010)

Global_Stoner said:


> Nobody has every been successfully sued for performing first aid and getting it wrong in the UK.
> 
> I'd jump at the chance if they are paying, even if you've done first aid course in the past, knowledge fades quickly and you could end saving the life of a family member or friend whilst outside work.





ajdown said:


> I'm a first aider, and fire warden, and I get absolutely zero extra for both roles.
> 
> Interesting.



i too am a fire warden and first aider for no extra pay, plus i deliver training in manuel handling within my workplace,again for no extra pay. i've always been told that having the training paid for was the only benefit, which to me seems fair enough, and it comes under the reasonable additional duties clause in most contracts


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 31, 2010)

A few thoughts -

If it's in your job contract that you must hold a first aid certificate, then yes, i guess they can force you to do it.  If it's not, I would not have thought they could.

As others have said, the "health and safety gone mad" hysteria in certain bits of the media that leads people to think they might get sued for attempting to give first aid is, largely (to use a medical term) bollocks.

Also, in general, if you do something in the course of your job, then your employer has 'vicarious liability' for your actions (I think i've spelt it right, it's too damn late to look it up) for your actions.  (subject to the 'I am not a lawyer' disclaimer)

For example, if a bus rams your car, you make a claim against the bus company (who hold an insurance policy), not the individual driver.  the bus company might have the driver up on a disciplinary and / or the police might prosecute him for driving without due care, but your legal claim is against the company.

Similarly, if the cleaner in Insainsburys trips you over with their mop, you would have a potential claim against the supermarket, not the individual cleaner.

I don't see how your employer could legally sidestep this and think they are talking balls if they say you'd be doing this at your own risk.

I would not worry too much about the legal implications - you may also find that if you're a union member, your membership may give you legal cover against any possible claims against you as an individual, or your home insurance policy might.


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## sim667 (Apr 1, 2010)

cheers puddy tat, thats explained it all very well....

Quick update:
its not the fact they want me to do it, its the fact that there's no transparency to health and safety procedures...... i email HR to ask, no respone........ ring them up, told me to look on the intranet........ looked on the intranet, broken link......... then today i finally found out who runs the first aid rota, and rang them...... she said the one day qualification isnt an in depth enough course to warrant putting me on the first aid rota anyway, so i asked what the point of the one day one was, and was told "None really, its just to get your continuing professional development level up" 

Good to see public sector money being put to good use.


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## pogofish (Apr 1, 2010)

sim667 said:


> Its the worry that I could be putting myself at massive personal financial risk if i was to cock the first aid up on someone, and i know that I would have no back up.
> 
> Would this be covered by Employment Law?





Mr Smin said:


> While you're checking out the law, find out just how liable you would be. I reckon not very - as long as you only do things you have been taught.





No.  This was covered by a specific judicial ruling around a decade ago.  I've been given a copy at every refresher since.  

The question should simply not arise.


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## sim667 (Apr 1, 2010)

pogofish said:


> No.  This was covered by a specific judicial ruling around a decade ago.  I've been given a copy at every refresher since.
> 
> The question should simply not arise.



can you point me in the direction?

I have no doubt this will pop up in the training session, and producing this would give me ultimate work kudos


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## zippyRN (Apr 1, 2010)

the insurance issue is a complete red herring -  the employer is vicariously liable for your acts anyway.  Indemnity insurance for first aid / emergency care  work is only  ever really an issue for Health Care Professional Staff ,  unless the  organisation you work for is dodgy ...


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## sim667 (Apr 1, 2010)

zippyRN said:


> unless the  organisation you work for is dodgy ...



not intentionally dodgy, just unorganised with a strong culture of blame.

anyways, resolved now.


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