# Beers available in Brixton - craft, ale, keg, cask, bottled, canned and more



## CH1 (Jun 6, 2016)

_Editor's note: The first posts in this thread have been moved from another discussion, hence the slightly strange start to this thread!_



alfajobrob said:


> I got to the second paraaaaagrrrrrrrr.zzzzzzz


Re cans of luxury pale ale at £4 - I can't quite understand why anyone would want to can a good beer. Cans are the least satisfactory way of serving beer - except that they are highly portable and can be exported to Antarctica etc.

I don't know much about the technology of nitro canning but I can vouch for the fact that London Pride in its canned form is fucking vile. But I was drinking it on a BA flight to Lagos - so no alternative as the lady used to say.

Do you think 40 FT brewery have mortgaged their houses to buy a canning machine and are now locked in to this mode of production?

Or maybe they have seen how massively popular Wetherspoons Bengal offering in cans was - and want to cash in - but can't afford to put any alcohol in their derivative light ale?

I think we should be told.


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## discobastard (Jun 6, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Re cans of luxury pale ale at £4 - I can't quite understand why anyone would want to can a good beer. Cans are the least satisfactory way of serving beer - except that they are highly portable and can be exported to Antarctica etc.
> 
> I don't know much about the technology of nitro canning but I can vouch for the fact that London Pride in its canned form is fucking vile. But I was drinking it on a BA flight to Lagos - so no alternative as the lady used to say.
> 
> ...



This is a reasonable overview. 

The rise of canned beer: anyone fancy a tinnie?


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## CH1 (Jun 6, 2016)

discobastard said:


> This is a reasonable overview.
> The rise of canned beer: anyone fancy a tinnie?


I have often had Adnams Ghost Ship as a hand-pulled ale at the Beehive.
Be interesting to do an A-B on it. Can't imagine a gassy canened version wold taste the same as the hand-pulled "real" variety though.


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## discobastard (Jun 6, 2016)

CH1 said:


> I have often had Adnams Ghost Ship as a hand-pulled ale at the Beehive.
> Be interesting to do an A-B on it. Can't imagine a gassy canened version wold taste the same as the hand-pulled "real" variety though.



No I can't imagine it will.  Though most craft beers, if you do see them on draught they tend to be keg rather than cask and so will be carbonated in any case, and probably won't taste much different.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 6, 2016)

CH1 said:


> I have often had Adnams Ghost Ship as a hand-pulled ale at the Beehive.
> Be interesting to do an A-B on it. Can't imagine a gassy canened version wold taste the same as the hand-pulled "real" variety though.



Bottled Ghost Ship is nice.


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## twistedAM (Jun 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bottled Ghost Ship is nice.


And very popular. They never have enough stock in Bookers. Trying to persuade the boss to do a day trip to South Wold and fill a van full of the stuff.


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## CH1 (Jun 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bottled Ghost Ship is nice.


On the matter of bottled beer (and trending off topic towards Lidl) I am just sampling their "La Blonde de Ch'Nord"
I wouldn't normally reckon to spend £2.49 on 75cL of beer in a wine bottle - but it is very nice and at 7% abv blows your head off!
I bet such a thing at Pop could triple the price.
Only gets a meagre 46 on Ratebeer mind


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 6, 2016)

CH1 said:


> On the matter of bottled beer (and trending off topic towards Lidl) I am just sampling their "La Blonde de Ch'Nord"
> I wouldn't normally reckon to spend £2.49 on 75cL of beer in a wine bottle - but it is very nice and at 7% abv blows your head off!
> I bet such a thing at Pop could triple the price.
> Only gets a meagre 46 on Ratebeer mind



I do like Bieres de Garde. Had a nice bottle of _Biere de Sans Culottes_ a few weeks back (7%) which was gorgeous, and have a bottle of Ch'ti blonde awaiting sampling. Both were about a fiver a bottle though, not £2.49!


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## alfajobrob (Jun 6, 2016)

I feel a bit John Lennon atm.

How about a thread we can ALL get together on and agree on with no bullshit. I'm sure if we all met in a pub it wouldn't be that bad and most would agree about a lot of different social points and issues. I'm even getting bored with this!

Have we got a Brixton etc. Ale, Beer, Cider thread and we can talk about the salient beer points raised above?


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## Twattor (Jun 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Have we got a Brixton etc. Ale, Beer, Cider thread and we can talk about the salient beer points raised above?



Please create.  Although if this forum is anything to go by I'm sure it will degenerate into hatred and fighting within 2 pages.  I'll even start you off - I'm not keen on red beers.


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## alfajobrob (Jun 6, 2016)

Twattor said:


> Please create.  Although if this forum is anything to go by I'm sure it will degenerate into hatred and fighting within 2 pages.  I'll even start you off - I'm not keen on red beers.



I have faith in the civility of posters - I like red beers, because they are not bitter.

I also like ipa's, apa's, honey etc. because it's not bitter either...it work's for the failing lager drinker.

I know nothing really about different ales etc....we do have some local now apparently but I'd like reviews and prices - supermarket, off licence deals if necessary...


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## jezg (Jun 6, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Do you think 40 FT brewery have mortgaged their houses to buy a canning machine and are now locked in to this mode of production?


AFAIK 40FT still use a mobile canning operator. They brew in a 40ft shipping container so no space for a canning line! Mobile canning vs in-house itself increases cost of beer quite significantly.


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## alfajobrob (Jun 6, 2016)

jezg said:


> AFAIK 40FT still use a mobile canning operator. They brew in a 40ft shipping container so no space for a canning line! Mobile canning vs in-house itself increases cost of beer quite significantly.




Is it any better than a Tyskie - What does it taste like?


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## CH1 (Jun 6, 2016)

jezg said:


> AFAIK 40FT still use a mobile canning operator. They brew in a 40ft shipping container so no space for a canning line! Mobile canning vs in-house itself increases cost of beer quite significantly.



That's astounding. A whole technical subculture I was totally unaware of.


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## jezg (Jun 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Is it any better than a Tyskie - What does it taste like?


It's a Pale Ale in the American Style so can't compare to a lager as very different yeast and hops flavours.


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## alfajobrob (Jun 6, 2016)

jezg said:


> It's a Pale Ale in the American Style so can't compare to a lager as very different yeast and hops flavours.



Anything really good about it, can I buy it locally?


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## jezg (Jun 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Anything really good about it?


Hah, that's subjective but hoppy Pale Ale's are very popular and this is a good example.


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## CH1 (Jun 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Is it any better than a Tyskie - What does it taste like?


Presumably it might be a bit like Devils Backbone - but the essential thing about these Craft beers is the very distinctive taste. Most canned lagers, including Tyskie, have such a bland taste that a rather refined palate is required to discern any difference (IMHO).


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## alfajobrob (Jun 6, 2016)

jezg said:


> Hah, that's subjective but hoppy Pale Ale's are very popular and this is a good example.



Sniff, sniff, sniff 

Now where is it in or is it brewery order thing?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 6, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Re cans of luxury pale ale at £4 - I can't quite understand why anyone would want to can a good beer. Cans are the least satisfactory way of serving beer - except that they are highly portable and can be exported to Antarctica etc.
> 
> I don't know much about the technology of nitro canning but I can vouch for the fact that London Pride in its canned form is fucking vile. But I was drinking it on a BA flight to Lagos - so no alternative as the lady used to say.
> 
> ...



Canning is cheaper and more convenient from a production point of view. You're dealing with a pasteurised liquid that doesn't "condition" (and thus have a small potential to spoil) in storage, and you have nothing like the breakage/failure rate that bottles experience. I can understand canned ales being popular, but they're only rarely going to live up to their draught and bottled stable-mates. There's a good reason that so few brewers in continental Europe primarily use cans - because it doesn't do their beers any favours, and they refuse to brew "for the can". Over here the big breweries spent 50 years brewing for their own convenience, so you got abominations like Watney Red Barrel, which tasted equally vile on tap and in a Party Seven, and tinned Double Diamond, which tasted nothing like it's draught brother.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> I have faith in the civility of posters - I like red beers, because they are not bitter.
> 
> I also like ipa's, apa's, honey etc. because it's not bitter either...it work's for the failing lager drinker.
> 
> I know nothing really about different ales etc....we do have some local now apparently but I'd like reviews and prices - supermarket, off licence deals if necessary...



Bitter is pretty much a sub-species. If you want to, it's easy to avoid. TBF, there's few draught bitters I'll actually drink in London - just Young's Special!

There are so many excellent bottled beers - from ales to Pilsners to ESBs to _Kolsch_ to Stouts to Milds to Goldens and Ales, that you can avoid bitter ever passing your lips, if you wish to.

If you ever want to experiment, online retailers like Beers of Europe do some very good mixed cases. The prices can be a bit hairy, but you can try some stuff that never usually makes it onto off-licence and supermarket shelves. A poster on here who'd tried a dark wheat beer (dunkel weisse) in Munich, but had never found it for sale over here was made up when I recommended the site to him, and he found that they sold it, albeit at £2.50 for a 500ml bottle!


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## discobastard (Jun 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Anything really good about it, can I buy it locally?


You might find it at Art and Craft in Streatham Hill or Hop Burns and Black in East Dulwich if you're happy jump on a bus/train.  Not going to be the cheapest way to buy beer (as per conversation on the other thread) but the 'new wave' of craft beers can be hard to find in regular shops.  A can of High Wire Grapefruit is £2.95 in HB&B but only £2 direct from the brewery (but that's in Huddersfield).

art-and-craft

HB&B Welcome

I like the Gipsy Hill Brewery beers.  Yuzu is interesting (bottled) and they do the other Pale Ales on proper draught (i.e. hand pulled cask rather than carbonated keg).  I prefer my beer uncarbonated wherever possible.


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## discobastard (Jun 6, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Sniff, sniff, sniff
> 
> Now where is it in or is it brewery order thing?


Are you in West Norwood (think you are thereabouts)?  Great North Wood has a good selection of similar too.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 6, 2016)

Some non-bitter supermarket-available bottled beers that I really like:

Fraoch Heather Ale - it's pronounced "frook", and uses heather rather than hops, tastes like a superior full-bodied lager.
Manns Brown Ale - only 2.7%, but a lovely flavour. 
Bombardier Banana Bread Ale - 4%-ish, smells like it's called. Very refreshing.
Dortmunder Union Export - still the North German "export" lager against which all others should be measured. One of only two lagers I keep for guests - the other is Budweis.
Paulaner Salvator - a "winter beer" from a several centuries-old recipe that's still brewed by the same family. It's strong - 7% - but is such a fantastic beer experience that you'll only drink a couple before feeling full. Much impersonated - there's a whole genus of strong German beers that are imitations of Salvator - but never bettered.


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## alfajobrob (Jun 6, 2016)

discobastard said:


> Are you in West Norwood (think you are thereabouts)?  Great North Wood has a good selection of similar too.



I'm abouts and may even have been in that pub today....I just drunk the cider though


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## discobastard (Jun 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Canning is cheaper and more convenient from a production point of view. You're dealing with a pasteurised liquid that doesn't "condition" (and thus have a small potential to spoil) in storage, and you have nothing like the breakage/failure rate that bottles experience. I can understand canned ales being popular, but they're only rarely going to live up to their draught and bottled stable-mates. There's a good reason that so few brewers in continental Europe primarily use cans - because it doesn't do their beers any favours, and they refuse to brew "for the can". Over here the big breweries spent 50 years brewing for their own convenience, so you got abominations like Watney Red Barrel, which tasted equally vile on tap and in a Party Seven, and tinned Double Diamond, which tasted nothing like it's draught brother.



One of the micro-canning companies has this to say:
"*Does canning real ale effect its taste?*
This is a debate that will run and run. Simply put, there will always be people who prefer drinking real ale out of a bottle / glass. We saw the same when we moved form corked wine bottles to screw tops. That’s absolutely fine, of course it is. However, there are many reasons / occasions when this is not possible / not wanted.
The traditional debate has centered on factors including taste, odour and colour. Beer is a sensitive beverage and exposure to both light and oxygen results in off-flavors. It’s a fact that the caps on bottles are rarely not completely airtight, creating a chemical reaction between oxygen and the hops. Bottles invariably let more light into the beer as compared with cans. Cans are impervious to light so the issue is immediately resolved. At WeCan we achieve DO levels of 10-20 ppb, protecting the flavour, reducing chances of creating an unpleasant aroma, and extending the shelf life (in excess of 120 days however dependent on beer type, pasteurisation etc).
Some of the proponents of bottles have remained steadfast in the claim that cans produce a metallic taste, however there has been little empirical evidence to support the claim.
Andy comments, “_I do find it slightly amusing that no one seems to mind the fact that kegged ale often sits in an aluminum keg_!”
“We have worked with the manufactures of our cans to ensure that they are lined with water epoxy, which ensures there is no beer – metal contact”.
WeCan Solutions have even conducted a taste test where 3 / 4 blindfolded people stated that the beer that came out of our cans had a preferable taste to that out of a bottle. Why not try their taste test by contacting etc...."

Apparently there is a lining on the inside of the can that prevents beer touching metal, that was on one of the canning sites somewhere.

There's also the fact of what it is stored in, as well as what you drink it out of (same as the way you might decant wine to let it breathe). 

I'd agree that historically, the 'big' brewers have canned for convenience rather than flavour.  And that in fact the beer itself might even be a different recipe (see CH1 's comment about London Pride being rotten on BA flights - I agree).  But Pride is something primarily you drink uncarbonated from cask. 

Also, a lot of the new wave are quite heavy on flavour and alcohol content and so are going to hold their own in a can better than shite like John Smiths and London Pride (in a can at least - I don't mind it on draught if its kept well).

Can't comment on ViolentPanda 's European dark beers as I don't tend to drink them but I suspect they probably wouldn't be very nice in cans!!


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## discobastard (Jun 6, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bitter is pretty much a sub-species. If you want to, it's easy to avoid. TBF, there's few draught bitters I'll actually drink in London - just Young's Special!


I quite like Bombardier - it's fairly consistent.  But you just don't get much good bitter anymore do you?  It's all hoppy pale.

Harvey's Sussex bitter is always good in the Market Porter.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 7, 2016)

discobastard said:


> I quite like Bombardier - it's fairly consistent.  But you just don't get much good bitter anymore do you?  It's all hoppy pale.
> 
> Harvey's Sussex bitter is always good in the Market Porter.



Heavily-hopped pales are "fashionable" at the mo, both here and in the US, especially ones using North American hop breeds like Citra. Give it a couple of years, and the fad will move onto something else, perhaps even "traditional" bitters!


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## alfajobrob (Jun 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Heavily-hopped pales are "fashionable" at the mo, both here and in the US, especially ones using North American hop breeds like Citra. Give it a couple of years, and the fad will move onto something else, perhaps even "traditional" bitters!



I'm sure that will happen as I get older...my tastes have changed over the years and I am getting more into bitters as I go

What do you reckon of Ringwood brewery btw...I'm going on a tour\pints and cheap bottles in a couple of weeks.


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## leanderman (Jun 7, 2016)

discobastard said:


> I quite like Bombardier - it's fairly consistent.  But you just don't get much good bitter anymore do you?  It's all hoppy pale.
> 
> Harvey's Sussex bitter is always good in the Market Porter.



Took a cask of Downton Brewery's Hopoholic on a camping trip last weekend. It went down very well


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## CH1 (Jun 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Over here the big breweries spent 50 years brewing for their own convenience, so you got abominations like Watney Red Barrel, which tasted equally vile on tap and in a Party Seven, and tinned Double Diamond, which tasted nothing like it's draught brother.


Talking of Party Sevens etc - I've not been particularly impressed by the Lidl offerings (Grafenwalder and Grafenwalder Hefe Weissbier) in the 5 litre cans.
I noticed the other day that Iceland now have a similar product - Bitburger Keg Bitburger Keg 5 Litre

Anybody tried this? It doesn't even seem price competitive, must genuinely be for the party market.


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## CH1 (Jun 7, 2016)

discobastard said:


> I quite like Bombardier - it's fairly consistent.  But you just don't get much good bitter anymore do you?  It's all hoppy pale.
> Harvey's Sussex bitter is always good in the Market Porter.


I would say Greene King Abbot is normally quite a good consistent non-hoppy bitter.

If the Albert is anything to go by Greene King make their profits from pub management not by promoting their own products.
Last time I was in the Albert (at least a year ago) GK IPA was off. The time before that it was on pressurized tap, which offended my drinking companion no end. 

The Greene King website says they have a craft range both bottled and draft - anybody ever seen any of these on offer at the Albert?
Craft beers | Greene King and Belhaven Craft beers | Greene King here to help


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## Twattor (Jun 7, 2016)

CH1 said:


> I would say Greene King Abbot is normally quite a good consistent non-hoppy bitter.
> 
> If the Albert is anything to go by Greene King make their profits from pub management not by promoting their own products.
> Last time I was in the Albert (at least a year ago) GK IPA was off. The time before that it was on pressurized tap, which offended my drinking companion no end.
> ...


I grew up on the nondescript rubbish that Greene King pump out so since moving south I refuse to drink it on principal, although I do remain very partial to an Adnams or a Woodfordes.

Hving said that, I accidentally had a pint of the Yardbird not too long ago, possibly at Crown and Sceptre, and it wasn't actually that bad.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 7, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> I'm sure that will happen as I get older...my tastes have changed over the years and I am getting more into bitters as I go
> 
> What do you reckon of Ringwood brewery btw...I'm going on a tour\pints and cheap bottles in a couple of weeks.



As you like pales and goldens, you'll like Boondoggle - the only Ringwood beer I've tried - as it's hoppy and peppery, and really refreshing.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 7, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Talking of Party Sevens etc - I've not been particularly impressed by the Lidl offerings (Grafenwalder and Grafenwalder Hefe Weissbier) in the 5 litre cans.
> I noticed the other day that Iceland now have a similar product - Bitburger Keg Bitburger Keg 5 Litre
> 
> Anybody tried this? It doesn't even seem price competitive, must genuinely be for the party market.



In Germany Bitburger is a very popular beer. If you walk through a German park at a weekend, you'll see loads of Bitburger mini-kegs being tapped. It's a Pilsner style, so it's hoppy, without being "punch you in the face" like some modern pales. It's a step up from Grafenwalder.
At £14.99 it's a decent price, although it'd cost you 10-11 Euros in Germany, so you can see how Iceland are still going to make a profit from it!


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## twistedAM (Jun 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> As you like pales and goldens, you'll like Boondoggle - the only Ringwood beer I've tried - as it's hoppy and peppery, and really refreshing.



It's pretty nice though I prefer Ghost Ship. Never been a big ale drinker but like all this American type stuff.


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## Winot (Jun 7, 2016)

I had my first (quick) visit to Canopy on Saturday (are we allowed Herne Hill boozers?). Unprepossessing location under the arches off Norwood Rd (behind Ollies) past the car mechanics and under the... err... canopy.

Just had time for a couple of halves - the small beer and the kolsch. Both lovely (but then beer drank in stolen time away from the kids always is). Left with a keg of the kolsch which wasn't cheap (£28 for 5l) but was very nice (except I fucked up opening it when pissed on Sunday).

Impressive range of ales and a nice atmosphere.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 7, 2016)

Re: the 5 litre kegs, Iceland are apparently also doing Budvar Budweis for £14.99!


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 7, 2016)

Winot said:


> I had my first (quick) visit to Canopy on Saturday (are we allowed Herne Hill boozers?). Unprepossessing location under the arches off Norwood Rd (behind Ollies) past the car mechanics and under the... err... canopy.
> 
> Just had time for a couple of halves - the small beer and the kolsch. Both lovely (but then beer drank in stolen time away from the kids always is). Left with a keg of the kolsch which wasn't cheap (£28 for 5l) but was very nice (except I fucked up opening it when pissed on Sunday).
> 
> Impressive range of ales and a nice atmosphere.



Actually, the _Kolsch_ price is reasonably competitive, seeing as it's only sold - in Cologne - in 300ml bottles, which usually sell for £2 a pop over here! I might have to give that a try!


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## Mr Retro (Jun 7, 2016)

I heart ghost ship and anything from Adnams and the old schools bitters in general. The lighter the colour and more bitter the taste the better I like them. 

The IPA's that have come out in the last years give me a crampy stomach for some reason.


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## alfajobrob (Jun 7, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Took a cask of Downton Brewery's Hopoholic on a camping trip last weekend. It went down very well



Doing a full cask next month.


Winot said:


> I had my first (quick) visit to Canopy on Saturday (are we allowed Herne Hill boozers?). Unprepossessing location under the arches off Norwood Rd (behind Ollies) past the car mechanics and under the... err... canopy.
> 
> Just had time for a couple of halves - the small beer and the kolsch. Both lovely (but then beer drank in stolen time away from the kids always is). Left with a keg of the kolsch which wasn't cheap (£28 for 5l) but was very nice (except I fucked up opening it when pissed on Sunday).
> 
> Impressive range of ales and a nice atmosphere.



Ta for that - i just went down today bought a keg 5l and 16 beers...I think any brewery is ok to mention.


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## discobastard (Jun 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Heavily-hopped pales are "fashionable" at the mo, both here and in the US, especially ones using North American hop breeds like Citra. Give it a couple of years, and the fad will move onto something else, perhaps even "traditional" bitters!


Maybe even Mild will make a comeback!! Spent most of my youth drinking Tetley Mild...


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## discobastard (Jun 7, 2016)

Winot said:


> I had my first (quick) visit to Canopy on Saturday (are we allowed Herne Hill boozers?). Unprepossessing location under the arches off Norwood Rd (behind Ollies) past the car mechanics and under the... err... canopy.
> 
> Just had time for a couple of halves - the small beer and the kolsch. Both lovely (but then beer drank in stolen time away from the kids always is). Left with a keg of the kolsch which wasn't cheap (£28 for 5l) but was very nice (except I fucked up opening it when pissed on Sunday).
> 
> Impressive range of ales and a nice atmosphere.


I was there Sunday drinking Magic Rock Ringmaster. It's a nice little spot to visit. 

Then round the corner for my first visit to Bullfinch, similar beers but more refined. Also a nice space. I'll be going back to both.


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## alfajobrob (Jun 7, 2016)

Hmmnnn.....


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## leanderman (Jun 7, 2016)

London Beer Lab really is worth visiting in Nursery rd.

Especially now they have extended their range, and opening hours.

Some of their Citra stuff is great, as is that by Beavertown and others stocked there


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## Twattor (Jun 7, 2016)

leanderman said:


> London Beer Lab is worth visiting in Nursery rd.
> 
> They have extended their range, and opening hours.
> 
> Some of their stuff is great, as is that by Beavertown and others stocked there


Absolutely.  Only discovered it last week.  Love the fact that people were just walking in and using their brewing facilities, and love the way they sell the random bottles of beers that people have brewed in their tap room shop (£2.50 for 330ml, IIRC).


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## alfajobrob (Jun 7, 2016)

discobastard said:


> Maybe even Mild will make a comeback!! Spent most of my youth drinking Tetley Mild...



Reports post!

and then makes a half mild and stout....my nan would be proud.


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## leanderman (Jun 7, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Doing a full cask next month.



It's surprising how long a cask remains cool, post-brewery.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 7, 2016)

discobastard said:


> Maybe even Mild will make a comeback!! Spent most of my youth drinking Tetley Mild...



Banks's is nice. Cellar temperature it's great. Fortunately, the concrete floor in my flat does a good approximation of cellar temperature, so I just leave bottles on the floor!


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 7, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Reports post!
> 
> and then makes a half mild and stout....my nan would be proud.



Mild and bitter was the false teeth mob's drink of choice when I was a teen (70s), with younger blokes drinking light and bitter, and wastrels drinking Guinness and sweet cider half/half.


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## cuppa tee (Jun 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Guinness and sweet cider half/half.



aka Black Velvet ?


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## Mr Retro (Jun 7, 2016)

I'm currently supping Adnams mosaic pale ale, which to my delight is on in the local in Walthamstow. Or one of my locals .


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## alfajobrob (Jun 7, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm currently supping Adnams mosaic pale ale, which to my delight is on in the local in Walthamstow. Or one of my locals .



I was supping old rosie in wetherspoons earlier at £3.05 a pint....it was then I decided my day wasn't really going anywhere...but still managed to get the beers on way back...that's a win for me.

The mad squirrels apa was really good from not too hoppy but a bit of wood at 2.50 a bottle from canopy...I'm just about to try a canopy sunray pale ale now.


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## leanderman (Jun 7, 2016)

Stir coffee shop on Brixton Hill is now stocking 'craft' beers, notably Beavertown.


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## CH1 (Jun 7, 2016)

discobastard said:


> Maybe even Mild will make a comeback!! Spent most of my youth drinking Tetley Mild...


I used to live in an area with Hydes pubs in Manchester. Most people would drink Hydes mild rather than the bitter.

About 5 years ago Imperial College Union used to have Green King mild as a low cost option like Ruddles Bitter is in Wetherspoons - rock bottom price and low strength (but actually quite nice to drink). Unfortunately more recently the union bar had a revamp with real ales now served on gas, and an offering of Belhaven keg beers as well (Bellhaven is owned by Greene King). A bit like the Albert?

The Beehive have occasionally had milds on offer at the so-called beer festivals. But I haven't kept tabs on this recently.


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## CH1 (Jun 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mild and bit was the false teeth mob's drink of choice when I was a teen (70s), with younger blokes drinking light and bitter, and wastrels drinking Guinness and sweet cider half/half.


I worked in a Youngs pub back in the late 1970s and a lot of the regulars either had Light and Bitter or Ram and Special is they wanted more of a kick.


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## Mattym (Jun 7, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bitter is pretty much a sub-species. If you want to, it's easy to avoid. TBF, there's few draught bitters I'll actually drink in London - just Young's Special!
> 
> There are so many excellent bottled beers - from ales to Pilsners to ESBs to _Kolsch_ to Stouts to Milds to Goldens and Ales, that you can avoid bitter ever passing your lips, if you wish to.
> 
> If you ever want to experiment, online retailers like Beers of Europe do some very good mixed cases. The prices can be a bit hairy, but you can try some stuff that never usually makes it onto off-licence and supermarket shelves. A poster on here who'd tried a dark wheat beer (dunkel weisse) in Munich, but had never found it for sale over here was made up when I recommended the site to him, and he found that they sold it, albeit at £2.50 for a 500ml bottle!



Beers of Europe is good, but beerhawk offer free delivery on orders over 50 quid. I haven't checked whether they charge slightly more & make the money back that way though.


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## Winot (Jun 7, 2016)

Mattym said:


> Beers of Europe is good, but beerhawk offer free delivery on orders over 50 quid. I haven't checked whether they charge slightly more & make the money back that way though.



Will remember that cheers - just ordered from Beers of Europe and was a bit put off by the delivery charge.


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## twistedAM (Jun 7, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Stir coffee shop on Brixton Hill is now stocking 'craft' beers, notably Beavertown.



Did you notice F Monday has a licence application in its window?
Wetherspoons are doing carry-out craft stuff now. I assume the price would be a lot more reasonable.


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## leanderman (Jun 7, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> Did you notice F Monday has a licence application in its window?
> Wetherspoons are doing carry-out craft stuff now. I assume the price would be a lot more reasonable.



Interesting. They had a temporary evening restaurant for a few months, a year or so ago.

Makes sense to share the rent.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 7, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> aka Black Velvet ?



Traditionally that's champagne and Guinness, but yeah.


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## twistedAM (Jun 7, 2016)

CH1 said:


> I used to live in an area with Hydes pubs in Manchester. Most people would drink Hydes mild rather than the bitter.



Hyde's bitter was pretty vile..the only other two beverages in Greater Manchester that were more shit than that were Greenall Whitey bitter and Hyde's own lager.
Hyde's had some nice pubs though so i drank mild too.


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## CH1 (Jun 8, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> Hyde's bitter was pretty vile..the only other two beverages in Greater Manchester that were more shit than that were Greenall Whitey bitter and Hyde's own lager.
> Hyde's had some nice pubs though so i drank mild too.


We didn't like JW Lees too much either back in the 70s, though it seems to have improved enough now for Wetherspoons at least.


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## discobastard (Jun 8, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Hmmnnn.....


A fine stash 

ETA this quote is missing the photo - but you know the one I mean...


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## twistedAM (Jun 8, 2016)

CH1 said:


> We didn't like JW Lees too much either back in the 70s, though it seems to have improved enough now for Wetherspoons at least.



Many of those mid-sized Lancs breweries seem to have been rejuvenated a bit cos they have the capacity to brew specialty ales in bulk much easier than a start-up. We might be getting a Theakston's IPA in the Windmill for example (they're distributed by and probably owned by Heineken these days).


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## cuppa tee (Jun 8, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Traditionally that's champagne and Guinness, but yeah.


thanks ! I became aware of the controversy when i moved way from the north where the idea of buying half a pint of champagne to put in your Guinness would have been laughed out of town....to me and pals a black velvet was always sweet cider  (woodpecker) and Guinness. I am now toying with the idea of formulating the velvet dragon, half fizzy wine, half dragon stout with an infusion of exotic spice....an  iron fist in a velvet glove.... which I shall copyright and open a shack in pop Brixton where it will retail at £20 a pint or £100 for a 3 litre jug of vibrancy


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 8, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> thanks ! I became aware of the controversy when i moved way from the north where the idea of buying half a pint of champagne to put in your Guinness would have been laughed out of town....to me and pals a black velvet was always sweet cider  (woodpecker) and Guinness. I am now toying with the idea of formulating the velvet dragon, half fizzy wine, half dragon stout, an  iron fist in a velvet glove which I shall copyright and open a shack in pop Brixton where it will retail at £20 a pint or £100 for a 3 litre jug of vibrancy



A mate used to make his own version with Gaymer's Old English, and Nigerian Guinness. The consensus was that a couple of pints of it was like being hit with a sock filled with wet sand.


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## alex_ (Jun 8, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> And very popular. They never have enough stock in Bookers. Trying to persuade the boss to do a day trip to South Wold and fill a van full of the stuff.



They deliver for free if you spend more than 60 quid.


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## alex_ (Jun 8, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Doing a full cask next month.
> 
> 
> Ta for that - i just went down today bought a keg 5l and 16 beers...I think any brewery is ok to mention.





Winot said:


> I had my first (quick) visit to Canopy on Saturday (are we allowed Herne Hill boozers?). Unprepossessing location under the arches off Norwood Rd (behind Ollies) past the car mechanics and under the... err... canopy.
> 
> Just had time for a couple of halves - the small beer and the kolsch. Both lovely (but then beer drank in stolen time away from the kids always is). Left with a keg of the kolsch which wasn't cheap (£28 for 5l) but was very nice (except I fucked up opening it when pissed on Sunday).
> 
> Impressive range of ales and a nice atmosphere.



It's good, I like the way they have other people's stuff too -it's also pretty cheap compared to other craft places eg fourpure all day ipa for 4 quid a pint iirc which isn't much more expensive than it is in a bottle shop (2.5 gbp for a 330ml can)

Alex


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## twistedAM (Jun 8, 2016)

alex_ said:


> They deliver for free if you spend more than 60 quid.



Adnams? Good to know.

Edit...it's cheaper at Bookers the gain they never have enough in stock.


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## leanderman (Jun 8, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> Adnams? Good to know.
> 
> Edit...it's cheaper at Bookers the gain they never have enough in stock.



Bookers in Vauxhall?


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## twistedAM (Jun 8, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Bookers in Vauxhall?



Yeah.


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## discobastard (Jun 9, 2016)

Scored a bottle of this at Canopy last night. Lovely stuff [emoji1360]


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## CH1 (Jul 12, 2016)

Popped into the Beehive tonight - seeking refuge after a £4.45 pint of Summer Lightning @ the Railway, Clapham North (which was excellent apart from the price).

Wetherspoons had a surprising guest premium ale - Phoenix Brewery (Heywood Lancs) Wobbly Bob 6% abv @ £2.65




Can'r say the Beehive was exactly vibrant though. Probably vibrant enough to sell a cask of Wobbly Bob in 1 or 2 days though.


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## DJWrongspeed (Jul 13, 2016)

Had a bottle of Wolf IPA from the Bullfinch Brewery recently. Yummy.


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## wheelie_bin (Jul 25, 2016)

Thinking of going to the bullfinch on Thursday, also the one nearby, Canopy. Are they any good for sitting in for a drink as well as sampling their beer? I'm particularly excited by the thought of the grapefruit pale ale because we both love Elvis Juice and Highwire.


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## The39thStep (Jul 25, 2016)

CH1 said:


> I used to live in an area with Hydes pubs in Manchester. Most people would drink Hydes mild rather than the bitter.
> 
> About 5 years ago Imperial College Union used to have Green King mild as a low cost option like Ruddles Bitter is in Wetherspoons - rock bottom price and low strength (but actually quite nice to drink). Unfortunately more recently the union bar had a revamp with real ales now served on gas, and an offering of Belhaven keg beers as well (Bellhaven is owned by Greene King). A bit like the Albert?
> 
> The Beehive have occasionally had milds on offer at the so-called beer festivals. But I haven't kept tabs on this recently.



Bitter outsells mild in Hydes pubs by miles.its not a bad pint but it certainly isn't the best in Manhchester either. Hydes have their own microbrewery now and some their product is very good.most of their houses have at least one guest beer as well if not several.


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## snowy_again (Jul 25, 2016)

wheelie_bin  They've both got space and seating - Canopy probably gets a bit more sunshine!


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## CH1 (Jul 25, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Bitter outsells mild in Hydes pubs by miles.its not a bad pint but it certainly isn't the best in Manhchester either. Hydes have their own microbrewery now and some their product is very good.most of their houses have at least one guest beer as well if not several.


You may be right now - but Hydes used to have a big brewery in Moss Lane East (only closed in 2012), and Hydes mild was much more popular than their bitter when I lived in Rusholme in the 1970s.


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## The39thStep (Jul 26, 2016)

CH1 said:


> You may be right now - but Hydes used to have a big brewery in Moss Lane East (only closed in 2012), and Hydes mild was much more popular than their bitter when I lived in Rusholme in the 1970s.


Be about right in the 70s, mild was a lot more popular then.


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## OvalhouseDB (Jul 26, 2016)

Brixton Brewery Reliance Pale Ale is my current summer favourite. It flies out of the Ovalhouse café (and not all via me)


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## wheelie_bin (Jul 28, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> wheelie_bin  They've both got space and seating - Canopy probably gets a bit more sunshine!


Woohoo, I'll report back on the beers then.



OvalhouseDB said:


> Brixton Brewery Reliance Pale Ale is my current summer favourite. It flies out of the Ovalhouse café (and not all via me)


I like it too. For drinking local productions I slightly prefer London Beer Lab's Coldharbour Hell Yeah, but it's a close call.


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## wheelie_bin (Aug 6, 2016)

Sorry for the delay, but a report back on the breweries.

Bullfinch (herne hill) - awesome, they've made a lot of effort to do it up nicer than most pubs and had one decent toilet. 12 beers on draft, tasters £4.50 for 3*1/3 pints. We had 9 really good ones, Wolf IPA being a massively standout favourite for both of us.
Canopy - ok layout and has toilets, but very much tables at a brewery. Not too impressed with the beer selection this time, they had 1/3 pint taster sets at similar price.
Brixton - lovely beers of Atlantic APA and Reliance on draft, the Electric IPA was much tastier than in a bottle. Unfortunately we got there near 8pm closing, so only those 3 standard beers we've had anywhere round Brixton before. Very small, mostly drinking standing in the street outside. Ok if you're passing, but not worth having as a trip in itself.
Beer Hive - very disappointed as it was closed when Google said it was open. Or we couldn't find it round those dirty Loughborough arches (we patrolled twice, so I really think it was closed and they didn't answer the mobile phone number on Google).

In summary - Bullfinch bullfinch bullfinch. It's seriously worth the brief stroll there, we're definitely going to go again and again. From the florence, take the nearest path across brockwell park and it's immediately ahead of you after the gate on the left. If you've ever been to a brewery and found a better one for drinking in, I'd love to hear which one.

(We like hoppy APAs and IPAs in general, so others might like the Canopy selection of more golden ale types more than we did).


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## wheelie_bin (Aug 6, 2016)

One other note in case there are any budding brewers here, The Florence are looking to take on a brewer to run their basement brewery at the pub (their brewer has left recently). May as well get the word out, bound to be somebody who'd like it and it's a nice little pub so I want an excuse to visit.


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## wheelie_bin (Aug 6, 2016)

While I'm doing brewery reports, we also tried a few weeks ago the craft beer mile in Bermondsey, so I may as well trip report:

BrewByNumbers - 5 beers on draft, the Centennial and White IPA were both excellent. Quite a few benches, no visible toilets. Long walk from Tower Bridge, my other half refused to go to Southwark brewery nearby for no good reason and we missed the one just behind its arch due to going to Kernel (we like their beers very much).
Kernel - the bastards were closed for a few weeks, unsure why as heard varying explanations.
Partizan - we couldn't find it. Coupled with kernel being closed, this meant the walk from Brew to Fourpure was a hefty and wet 20-25min.
Fourpure - 10 beers on draft. Loved the shapeshifter, the APA and planet simcoe. Portaloo only and in the middle of a proper industrial estate so lots of tables but not much atmosphere, great upside of 6 cans for £10 to take away and near the tube to get home.

Summary - make fourpure a separate trip to the brewbynumbers (go to Southwark and the one behind brewbynumbers along with it if you want a trip round a few) and check with other breweries that they're actually open to avoid disappointment.


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## CH1 (Aug 6, 2016)

wheelie_bin said:


> Bullfinch (herne hill) - awesome, they've made a lot of effort to do it up nicer than most pubs and had one decent toilet. 12 beers on draft, tasters £4.50 for 3*1/3 pints. We had 9 really good ones, Wolf IPA being a massively standout favourite for both of us.


I've heard form other sources that Bullfinch is very good. Somewhere I need to visit. Maybe it might be an idea for a Urban meet-up?


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 8, 2016)

CH1 said:


> I've heard form other sources that Bullfinch is very good. Somewhere I need to visit. Maybe it might be an idea for a Urban meet-up?



It's nice but they don't have a lot of space - it might be pushing it if it's busy anyway.


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## CH1 (Aug 22, 2016)

This was on tonight at Beehive. £2.35 (Monday price) normally £2.65 Seemed very palatable to me.


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## CH1 (Aug 31, 2016)

Maybe topical with this Madness organised Clapham Common event last weekend - both Acre Lane and Stockwell Lidl are currently stocking Madness Night Boat porter - brewed by Portobello Brewery.

Not sure how to review this one. The taste is pretty much what you would expect from a porter old-style London beer. Not hopped up like a "craft" beer.  I am intrigued as to why Lidl took this, but not the other two Madness branded Portobello beers (particularly "Gladness" Craft Lager- which might be expected to be more popular with current fashions). Maybe its about price - or maybe they will be along soon. Price of the porter - £1.39/500ml bottle.


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## CH1 (Jan 31, 2017)

This modest bottled offering is still on sale at Lidl Acre Lane, left over from Burns Night perhaps.

(Belheather Scotch Whisky Beer 6.5% abv 330ml £1.29)

Tried it just to see. Ratebeer.com say it is manufactured at the C & C Tennents Wellpark factory in Glasgow - which also makes Innis & Gunn.

My favourite Ratebeer review - from a Manchester resident - is this:
*"Tramp juice with a whiff of whiskey clear amber small head bottle from lidl."*


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## CH1 (Feb 26, 2017)

No action here lately, so I'll report I enjoyed a Red India Ale from Dorking Brewery at the Beehive last night.

Cross-checking with the Ratebeer website, it just so happened the last review of this beer was by someone who tried it in the Beehive last November. The guy is obviously an expert with 10 pages of beer reviews to his name so I defer to his good judgement:





3
*   AROMA 3/10   APPEARANCE 3/5   TASTE 6/10   PALATE 3/5   OVERALL 15/20*BeardedAvenger (494) - Addlestone, Surrey, ENGLAND - NOV 20, 2016
Tap at Beehive Spoons, Brixton. Vague sweet aroma. Dark chestnut, with a creamy head. Light bitter, with an underlyng sweetness. Nutty, chestnut, berries. Medium bodied, creamy.


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## CH1 (Mar 30, 2017)

I'm getting a bit cheesed off with the local Wetherspoons.
Currently there is supposed to be a JDW beer festival 22 March - 2 April.

Was delighted to be charged £2.25 on 22nd for quite nice ale (bodebrown Brazilian Burton Brown from recollection) in the Beehive.

Next time I went in to Beehive it was a different story. All beers had suddenly jumped to £2.65 (the London accented barman whose name comes up as "Jesus" on the till opined this was so they could get the max out of the Academy crowd.

On Monday I was charged £2.05 - for the same beer (St Louis Continental 6.5% abv brewed at Shepherd Neame). Unfortunately a second pint was impossible as they had run out - and indeed run out of all their real ales.

Today I went in expecting it would be sorted - only to find there were still no guest festival ales available - so I went to the Crown & Sceptre. The place was like a morgue. There were only two guest festival ales (in their heyday they would have had 4 or 6).

Birrifico Mind the Gap 4.5% abv tasted "off" to me. Not one to make a fuss I went on to Hook Norton Amarillo Gold 4.7% abv, which had the modern American hop flavour currently popular. Nice drink at long last.

I am posting the listing below - though whether anything is available seems to be a matter of pot luck. Maybe the Fox might be the best bet?

Tim Martin should cut out the TV appearances and get his pubs back to normal service.


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## twistedAM (Mar 30, 2017)

CH1 - Thought you would have known about Spoons' "Monday Club". They do quite a few beers for about £2.05 a pint or a little more depending which Spoons it is. I;ve gone in for a burrito and got a bit carried away a couple of times.


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## Ergo Proxy (Mar 30, 2017)

Coach and Horses CH1?

Coach & Horses Clapham - Frontier Pubs


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## CH1 (Mar 30, 2017)

twistedAM said:


> CH1 - Thought you would have known about Spoons' "Monday Club". They do quite a few beers for about £2.05 a pint or a little more depending which Spoons it is. I;ve gone in for a burrito and got a bit carried away a couple of times.


You won't be going in for any Beer Festival guest ales tonight. I checked earlier and one of the barmen said they only got sent 5 barrels of "festival ales" - and they finished on Monday.

As for the price of £2.05 - I think you will find the price is 20p off whatever it is so to speak. Since the official price of festival ales was £2.25 (until the manger apparently jacked it up at the weekend as discussed previously) the price this Monday was £2.05.

The helpful barman today directed me to "Streatham". Actually I might try the Holland Tringham (next to Pratts and Payne) tonight - that's normally cheapest Wetherspoon of the lot.


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## CH1 (Mar 30, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Coach and Horses CH1?
> 
> Coach & Horses Clapham - Frontier Pubs


Thanks for the suggestion - I'll give that a look in a some point. I used to love the Clock House which was more or less opposite - then got turned into a trendy Jazz restaurant called Sand (having had its marvellous Victorian features destroyed or sold off to architectural salvage. 

Current use of the building seems to be some sort of training or educational project.

I can't show you either incarnation - unusually for round here there are no photos at all on Google.


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## technical (Mar 31, 2017)

What used to be Sand is now some kind of kids activity place


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## CH1 (Feb 24, 2018)

Craft Beer reopening night Thursday 22 Feb - after refurb. Just a note to say I attended (after a less-than full but very tasty pint of Truman's Zephyr at the Beehive).

The Craft place was understandably packed - but obviously catered to a certain crowd (20-35 affluent white).
The new decor is a bit garish. Because the bar is quite small, the mirrored ceiling, aluminium framed double-glazed windows and doors and glossy black overlay to the brickwork seemed to me to evoke a 1970s hi tec look. A bit like The Clockwork Orange without the sexual sofas (because no room). Actually a glitter ball would have completed the scenario.

By contrast the upper room - also full up - appears to retain the original windows but is laid out to give a relaxed and modern, but less in your face feel than downstairs. I should add that although I saw no-one I knew, and indeed no-lone within 20 years of my age, the atmosphere was not unfriendly - though it seemed everyone there was in some sort of group.

There was a band playing - which in a way added to the 1970s feel, because they seemed to dwell on Stones favourites, and apparently AC/DC (who are they?) I guess this will be an occasional attraction. The sound wasn't painfully loud - but both the band and the taped music meant people probably had to raise their voices from time to time to be heard. Not a venue for a meditative drink.

I find the Craft bar serving method intriguing. It looks like the very large selection of beers (and ciders) is served on gravity. Theyn simply flip the tap and the stuff goes into a skiff or glass. No pumping and no gas.

Although spoilt for choice, I decided to try Pentonville Oyster Stout. Is there a Stockwell Green connection here I wonder?  This beer is brewed by a Hammerton Brewery in Islington, but there was a Hammerton Brewery next to St Andrews Church Stockwell Green. Anyway this was not the first time I'd tried their Oyster stout. Thick, black and not sweet this brew is similar to Harviestoun's Old Engine Oil, which used to be a favourite at Wetherspoons beer festivals. I had had the Pentonville Oyster stout a while back at the Crown and Anchor, Brixton Road. It's OK - but easier to appreciate sitting outide on a bench in the summer, than jammed into a vibrant venue with 100 people you don't know.

For my second pint I tried Brixton Atlantic APA - which was hoppy in the American manner as one would expect. And £3 at the half price offer - so £6 one assumes normally. Seems a bit expensive if all they've got to do is roll the barrels down Brixton Station Road!

A final point on the new shop-front. It hasn't enhanced the heritage character of the area, so one wonders how it managed to get planning permission. There is one big advantage in crowded situations - the door swings both ways - so that you could be by the door and not knocked flying by people pushing to get it. 

I don't normally have three pints in a short evening (I was actually recovering from the People's Audit/Kate Hoey/Cressingham event at the time) and it did rather rub in doctor's advice. The first Truman's pint at the Beehive gave a buzz but was only 4.4% abv. The two stronger pints (5.4%) at Craft Beer did not seem to add to the buzz, but made for a rather sluggish Friday morning. I wonder what the people felt like who were rushing to get the 10% abv offering (can't remember the name and probably nor can they!).


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## jezg (Feb 25, 2018)

CH1 said:


> I find the Craft bar serving method intriguing. It looks like the very large selection of beers (and ciders) is served on gravity. Theyn simply flip the tap and the stuff goes into a skiff or glass. No pumping and no gas.


The beers on the top fonts are all dispensed from kegs via gas from the cellar below. The taps on the bar are all handpulls and draw the beer from casks in the cellar.



> Although spoilt for choice, I decided to try Pentonville Oyster Stout. Is there a Stockwell Green connection here I wonder?  This beer is brewed by a Hammerton Brewery in Islington, but there was a Hammerton Brewery next to St Andrews Church Stockwell Green.


Lee Hammerton the founder is a relative of the family that started Hammerton in Stockwell. Their Oyster stout is a nod to that



> For my second pint I tried Brixton Atlantic APA - which was hoppy in the American manner as one would expect. And £3 at the half price offer - so £6 one assumes normally. Seems a bit expensive if all they've got to do is roll the barrels down Brixton Station Road!


Thanks for drinking our beer! We are indeed very close to Craft Beer Co. and that's where our story began over a pint in Hive Bar so it's special for us. Re. the price obviously we don't have control over retail prices but do try and keep the beer as affordable as possible whilst using the best ingredients, paying London Living Wage etc. We've managed to keep our prices the same this year despite the weak pound, rising biz rates etc and you can always find it on at our tap room for a more affordable price every Saturday. We also offer free tours at 12:15 if you want to learn more about how we make the beers.


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## ricbake (Feb 26, 2018)

They now have the very excellent session ale Citra (4.2% & £3.80) from the Oakham brewery as a permanent fixture in the Crown and Anchor Brixton Road


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## CH1 (Mar 24, 2018)

I notice Lidl have Samuel Adams Boston Lager on special for 99p (small bottle) this weekend.
Was just looking it up and there seems some dispute in the USA about where it is brewed (Boston or Cincinnati).
Even stranger the Shepherd Neame website has section specially devoted to it: Samuel Adams Boston Lager from Shepherd Neame

I'll be getting a bottle or two just to try it - but looking for tell-tale signs it was manufactured in Faversham rather than the USA!


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## alex_ (Mar 24, 2018)

CH1 said:


> I notice Lidl have Samuel Adams Boston Lager on special for 99p (small bottle) this weekend.
> Was just looking it up and there seems some dispute in the USA about where it is brewed (Boston or Cincinnati).
> Even stranger the Shepherd Neame website has section specially devoted to it: Samuel Adams Boston Lager from Shepherd Neame
> 
> I'll be getting a bottle or two just to try it - but looking for tell-tale signs it was manufactured in Faversham rather than the USA!



At that price it’ll deffo be brewed in Kent.

Alex


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## CH1 (Mar 24, 2018)

alex_ said:


> At that price it’ll deffo be brewed in Kent.
> Alex


I think it is brewed under license, but it's quite a good clone - the label seems very America-style except I don't think in the USA it would say 330mL. Isn't the American size 12oz? Plus there is a tiny indication on the back label of UK "units". I doubt that would be on a US bottle - unless specially customised.


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## Winot (Mar 24, 2018)

CH1 said:


> I think it is brewed under license, but it's quite a good clone - the label seems very America-style except I don't think in the USA it would say 330mL. Isn't the American size 12oz? Plus there is a tiny indication on the back label of UK "units". I doubt that would be on a US bottle - unless specially customised.



I’m sure you’re right. Bizarrely - for a country that is quite nanny-statish about alcohol - American beers quite often don’t have ABV marked on bottles. And I’ve never seen units which I imagine are a UK invention.


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## CH1 (Jun 10, 2018)

Lidl are offering some branded beers supposedly to coincide with the world cup. At £1.49 it's hardly bargain basement - but probably 20p off the Tescos or Morrisons price.

Surprisingly 4 of the above are supposedly Charles Wells brewed - but if you look on the bottle it's Marstons! Funnily enough I don't ever see Heineken brews at Lidl - so seems we'll have to wait awhile for Brixton Atlantic Ale from Lidl.


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## Twattor (Jun 11, 2018)

CH1 said:


> Surprisingly 4 of the above are supposedly Charles Wells brewed - but if you look on the bottle it's Marstons!



Marstons bought Charles Wells last year.  At the same time Youngs hived off to become a pubco leaving Marstons to brew their beer as well.


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## CH1 (Jun 16, 2018)

Anyone notice that Shepherd Neame beers (Spitfire/Bishops Finger) now have 10 cent deposit on the bottle - refundable at store of purchase.

Unfortunately the deposit is only reclaimable in South Australia!


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## dtb (Jun 18, 2018)

The Beer Lab opposite Brixton tube down Nursery Road always has a great selection on tap and probably the most reasonably priced craft beer you'll find in London.  They have a lot of guest beers as well as their own brews and have an extensive bottle and can selection as well.


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## Rushy (Jun 19, 2018)

dtb said:


> The Beer Lab opposite Brixton tube down Nursery Road always has a great selection on tap and probably the most reasonably priced craft beer you'll find in London.  They have a lot of guest beers as well as their own brews and have an extensive bottle and can selection as well.


Their brewing course is fun too.And you come away with 60 bottles of tasty home brew.


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## alcopop (Jun 19, 2018)

Rushy said:


> Their brewing course is fun too.And you come away with 60 bottles of tasty home brew.


How much is the course?


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## Rushy (Jun 19, 2018)

alcopop said:


> How much is the course?


 About 160 for three of us, I think.


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## CH1 (Jun 22, 2018)

Just to point out that Morrisons (Camberwell at least) are doing a temporary promotion on some bottled beers @ £1. 

There's about 6 different beers, but my favourite in terms of exotic taste is this:


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## discobastard (Jun 23, 2018)

Not really Brixton related (and may have been posted elsewhere) but thought worth sharing here:

Our letter to Beavertown


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## editor (Jun 23, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Not really Brixton related (and may have been posted elsewhere) but thought worth sharing here:
> 
> Our letter to Beavertown


Great response. Makes you wonder about the Brixton Brewery....


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## discobastard (Jun 23, 2018)

editor said:


> Great response. Makes you wonder about the Brixton Brewery....


Yes, it's good to see them sticking to their principles.  Beavertown say:

Q&A With Logan Plant - Beavertown Brewery


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## alex_ (Jun 23, 2018)

editor said:


> Great response. Makes you wonder about the Brixton Brewery....



From the letter it looks like they’ve knocked that on the head too.

Though not being 8% of their turnover that was probably a less brave decision.

Alex


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2018)

So they'd already told Brixton Brewery to GTFO after they scooped the corporate cash: 



> Heineken - like AB InBev - does not have the health of the UK independent beer scene at heart. Dressing up this move as good for the consumer is just spin - in reality this is simply helping Big Beer chip away at the UK independent beer scene. As independent retailers whose business is also at risk from Big Beer's targeting of the industry, we cannot support this.
> 
> We have had a long and close relationship with Beavertown - your beers make up more than 8% of our annual turnover (second only to Cloudwater), so this is not a decision we have taken lightly. However, as with Brixton after it sold to Heineken, we are prepared to say goodbye. We're sad that we've had to take this decision but nothing is more important to us than our principles.


I wish more businesses were as ethically minded.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 23, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Yes, it's good to see them sticking to their principles.  Beavertown say:
> Q&A With Logan Plant - Beavertown Brewery


They are "on a journey" and "hope to provide one of the UK's if not the world's best brewing and visitor experiences" 

I don't judge their business arrangements - I'm not qualified - but this sort of sales talk is as annoying to me as the "honestly grown" vegetables I buy in Lidl!


----------



## aka (Jun 25, 2018)

CH1 said:


> Anyone notice that Shepherd Neame beers (Spitfire/Bishops Finger) now have 10 cent deposit on the bottle - refundable at store of purchase.
> 
> Unfortunately the deposit is only reclaimable in South Australia!


challenge accepted


----------



## discobastard (Jun 26, 2018)

CH1 said:


> They are "on a journey" and "hope to provide one of the UK's if not the world's best brewing and visitor experiences"
> 
> I don't judge their business arrangements - I'm not qualified - but this sort of sales talk is as annoying to me as the "honestly grown" vegetables I buy in Lidl!


I'm not massively keen on the 'visitor experience' idea.  It's a fucking brewery not a theme park.

I am trying to work out what I think about taking the Heineken cash.  On the one hand, it's a sellout that comes from being massively successful, brewing great beers and feeling the ineluctable need to keep pushing your brand and what you create out there.  I get that, with the fact that you can expand and massively increase distribution with the (alleged) non-intervention from Heineken.  (yes I know there are people out there that have managed to resist this)

At the same time I love the invention of all the other independent craft brewers and I don't need to drink Beavertown (even though I enjoy their collabs and limited releases).  And so I'm not going to drink their beer anymore unless there's no option.  

If Magic Rock go down the same route I'll be *really* pissed off.  I think they might be one of the next largest/popular.


----------



## editor (Jun 26, 2018)

discobastard said:


> I'm not massively keen on the 'visitor experience' idea.  It's a fucking brewery not a theme park.
> 
> I am trying to work out what I think about taking the Heineken cash.  On the one hand, it's a sellout that comes from being massively successful, brewing great beers and feeling the ineluctable need to keep pushing your brand and what you create out there.  I get that, with the fact that you can expand and massively increase distribution with the (alleged) non-intervention from Heineken.  (yes I know there are people out there that have managed to resist this)


Why do they feel the need to "massively increase distribution" and - of course, contribute to their own and Heineken's already-immense profits?

To some people the best independent breweries - like the best independent record labels - offer a real alternative and represent a different set of values to the ruthless capitalism of the big players. They're not all about profit and endless expansion into new territories.

It reminds me when music majors used to create faux indie labels so they could ride on the back of their success and credibility.

The Brixton Brewery have made it clear which side of the fence they're on. They're happy to jump into bed with multi billion, multi national corporates in the name of increased profits and expanded product recognition, while using the 'Brixton' brand to enhance their hipness. 

I won't be buying their beer again (actually, I've never really liked anything of theirs I've tasted to date, so perhaps I should reword that to: I'll never try anything of theirs again!).

Thankfully, there are other true independent brewers in the area who I think are unlikely to give away nearly half of their business to the second biggest brewer in the world. And thank 'eavens for them.


----------



## Twattor (Jun 26, 2018)

discobastard said:


> I'm not massively keen on the 'visitor experience' idea.  It's a fucking brewery not a theme park.
> 
> I am trying to work out what I think about taking the Heineken cash.  On the one hand, it's a sellout that comes from being massively successful, brewing great beers and feeling the ineluctable need to keep pushing your brand and what you create out there.  I get that, with the fact that you can expand and massively increase distribution with the (alleged) non-intervention from Heineken.  (yes I know there are people out there that have managed to resist this)
> 
> ...


I've had a soft spot for Beavertown since their start-up in Duke's Brew and 'Cue, as I was working next door when they first opened.  Their early attempts at brewing were woeful and their attempts at cask absolute poison, so much so that for the first couple of years they only survived by being subsidised by the pub.  When they gave up cask and moved to keg the beers improved massively, got very popular, and they've since had to expand twice to keep up with demand.  When they stopped needing the pub revenue they disposed of it to focus on brewing.  Good for them, I say.

So they love brewing and want to share their beers with more people.  What's wrong with that?  They've chosen one form of investment over another - they could well have gone down the private equity route instead.  Would that have been better? Brewdog used crowdfunding and sold bonds to expand their operations and create their horrible identikit bars; they were criticised as sell-outs for doing so even though they opened the investment to everyone.

I like that Logan has dreams and ambitions. I like the idea of more of their beers. I don't like the idea of Beaver Bars, or of Heineken but I won't be cutting off my nose to spite my face by refusing to drink their beers.  Hop Burns & Black and Cloudwater are just being petty.


----------



## jezg (Jul 1, 2018)

editor said:


> The Brixton Brewery have made it clear which side of the fence they're on. They're happy to jump into bed with multi billion, multi national corporates in the name of increased profits and expanded product recognition, while using the 'Brixton' brand to enhance their hipness.



There's a myriad of reasons breweries have to juggle in deciding which paths to take, we set some of those out in the announcement post on our website and latterly this podcast if your interested in understanding ours.

We don't take the name of our home lightly and are certainly always conscious of the responsibility it brings and we do our utmost to respect that. We appreciate not everyone will agree with the choices we make but I hope they might at least understand them.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 1, 2018)

Given posting here if anyone is interested in 100% independent brewery then there is Clarkshaws in Loughborough Junction. In Ridgeway road by the Loughborough road/ Cold harbour lane crossroads in one of the railway arches. Was there today. Excellent beers and really friendly couple who run it. Over summer normally open for drinks or take away from Friday evening and then 12 to 8 on weekends. Unless they are at a beer Festival. 

Clarkshaws - Home

Had a chat with them today. They have some great beers and lagers on tap and bottles.


----------



## alex_ (Jul 2, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Given posting here if anyone is interested in 100% independent brewery then there is Clarkshaws in Loughborough Junction. In Ridgeway road by the Loughborough road/ Cold harbour lane crossroads in one of the railway arches. Was there today. Excellent beers and really friendly couple who run it. Over summer normally open for drinks or take away from Friday evening and then 12 to 8 on weekends. Unless they are at a beer Festival.
> 
> Clarkshaws - Home
> 
> Had a chat with them today. They have some great beers and lagers on tap and bottles.



Also canopy have a nice tap room, London beer lab are all lovely guys, who else is there in the area ?

Alex


----------



## Twattor (Jul 2, 2018)

alex_ said:


> Also canopy have a nice tap room, London beer lab are all lovely guys, who else is there in the area ?
> 
> Alex


Bullfinch do some good beers - under the arches just off Rosendale.  That's the last stop on the Brixton beer mile (currently): Beer Lab, Brixton, Clarkshaws, Canopy, Bullfinch.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2018)

jezg said:


> We don't take the name of our home lightly and are certainly always conscious of the responsibility it brings and we do our utmost to respect that. We appreciate not everyone will agree with the choices we make but I hope they might at least understand them.


Brixton has recently become a byword for entrepreneurial enterprise, brand expansion and, ultimately, profit. I'd say that your company very much fits in with that, but do you still think of yourself as an 'independent' brewery?


----------



## jezg (Jul 2, 2018)

editor said:


> Brixton has recently become a byword for entrepreneurial enterprise, brand expansion and, ultimately, profit. I'd say that your company very much fits in with that, but do you still think of yourself as an 'independent' brewery?



I assume you're referring to other businesses that have started in Brixton and grown elsewhere e.g. Honest, Kricket etc I'm not sure we fit in with that as the key to the partnership for us was it allowed us to stay in Brixton whilst growing. Naturally we pursue profit to ensure our business is sustainable, remains innovative, can grow and reward our staff.

In terms of independence, we are still an independent brewery with the founders owning the majority of shares and controlling the brewery. We are also members of SIBA(Society of Independent Brewers) as we continue to satisfy their membership criteria.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2018)

jezg said:


> I assume you're referring to other businesses that have started in Brixton and grown elsewhere e.g. Honest, Kricket etc I'm not sure we fit in with that as the key to the partnership for us was it allowed us to stay in Brixton whilst growing. Naturally we pursue profit to ensure our business is sustainable, remains innovative, can grow and reward our staff.
> 
> In terms of independence, we are still an independent brewery with the founders owning the majority of shares and controlling the brewery. We are also members of SIBA(Society of Independent Brewers) as we continue to satisfy their membership criteria.


Would you count this site as 'independent' if we were 49% owned by Murdoch's Sky?

And isn't part of your Heineken-funded expansion enabling you to sell your beer outside of Brixton?


----------



## jezg (Jul 2, 2018)

editor said:


> Would you count this site as 'independent' if we were 49% owned by Murdoch's Sky?
> 
> And isn't part of your Heineken-funded expansion enabling you to sell your beer outside of Brixton?



You asked if we think of ourselves as independent, I explained why we do. We go into more details why in our blog post and the podcast I linked to earlier. 

We've always sold beer outside of Brixton and indeed the UK.


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2018)

jezg said:


> You asked if we think of ourselves as independent, I explained why we do. We go into more details why in our blog post and the podcast I linked to earlier.
> 
> We've always sold beer outside of Brixton and indeed the UK.


I appreciate you taking the time to reply here, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

In my eyes, the word 'independent' conjures up images of a small business with a small scale, niche offering, and not a company that jumps into bed with the planet's second biggest multi-billion brewery to pursue what appears to be quite aggressive expansion plans (a massive 400% increase in output).

And for that reason, I - and I suspect quite a few other people - really can't see how you can be described as independent, even if SIBA think you are. Ans you didn't answer my question:  Would you count this site as 'independent' if we were 49% owned by Murdoch's Sky?

Some interesting background:


> Continuing in the vein of big brewers, long time speculation around Heineken’s desire to purchase a UK brewery, after completing their purchase of SoCal’s Lagunitas in May 2017, was quelled when it was announced in November 2017 that they had purchased a minority stake in London’s Brixton Brewery. This indicates that Lagunitas may have been their stepping stone into craft brewery acquisitions, but also their guinea pig, and that they will continue to drive into the craft sector.





> The Society of Independent Brewers (SIBA) has worked tirelessly to introduce and reinforce the message of its _Assured Independent British Craft Brewer_ programme, which encourages brewers to use its badge to inform consumers when they are drinking beers that are brewed by _true independent craft brewers_, rather than those who are owned by macro-beer conglomerates.
> 
> They’ve backed up this message with a YouGov poll of 1000 beer drinkers, which found that 69% of the sample would prefer to drink a beer from an independent brewer, with 54% more likely to buy a beer that carried the SIBA logo. Their survey also indicated that 50% of beer drinkers were consuming local craft beer, with that percentage rising to 61% in 25-34 year olds.


State of the UK Craft Beer Market in 2017


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 3, 2018)

I don’t think satisfying SIBA requirements give you right to claim you are independent. There is no large industry more rapacious than the beer industry. I think if you give them a huge chunk of your business you can’t claim to be independent any more.

Not that I blame you for your choice, you did whats best for you and your company and I would most likely do exactly the same. So I wish you the very best of luck. But you are no longer an independent brewery in my eyes.


----------



## Twattor (Jul 3, 2018)

Mr Retro said:


> I don’t think satisfying SIBA requirements give you right to claim you are independent. There is no large industry more rapacious than the beer industry. I think if you give them a huge chunk of your business you can’t claim to be independent any more.
> 
> Not that I blame you for your choice, you did whats best for you and your company and I would most likely do exactly the same. So I wish you the very best of luck. But you are no longer an independent brewery in my eyes.


I don't think it is as black and white as that.  It isn't a buyout, but an investment.  Compare the Brixton/Beavertown scenario with the likes of Goose Island (AB InBev), Lagunitas (Heineken), Meantime (SAB Miller, now InBev), Camden (AB InBev), Ballast Point (Constellation) all of which were full buyouts.  Those resulted in all sorts of unwelcome changes: brewing was relocated to existing macro-brewery plants and other cost savings forced were upon them (recipe changes, lower quality ingredients etc.).

Brixton and Beavertown have retained ownership.  They have a new investor, who will no doubt want a return, but the ownership and direction remains their own. Unless of course they decide to sell the rest at a later date...

What's the threshold for investment above which a firm loses it's indendence?  I'd say it is anything over the majority voting rights set out in their memorandum of association.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2018)

Twattor said:


> I don't think it is as black and white as that.  It isn't a buyout, but an investment.  Compare the Brixton/Beavertown scenario with the likes of Goose Island (AB InBev), Lagunitas (Heineken), Meantime (SAB Miller, now InBev), Camden (AB InBev), Ballast Point (Constellation) all of which were full buyouts.  Those resulted in all sorts of unwelcome changes: brewing was relocated to existing macro-brewery plants and other cost savings forced were upon them (recipe changes, lower quality ingredients etc.).
> 
> Brixton and Beavertown have retained ownership.  They have a new investor, who will no doubt want a return, but the ownership and direction remains their own. Unless of course they decide to sell the rest at a later date...
> 
> What's the threshold for investment above which a firm loses it's indendence?  I'd say it is anything over the majority voting rights set out in their memorandum of association.


So I'll ask you. Would you view these boards as 'independent' if Murdoch's Sky paid me tens of millions of pounds for a 49% stake?


----------



## Twattor (Jul 3, 2018)

editor said:


> So I'll ask you. Would you view these boards as 'independent' if Murdoch's Sky paid me tens of millions of pounds for a 49% stake?


Wouldn't that be up to you?  Surely it would come down to the terms of Sky's investment and whether it was on the basis of you retaining full editorial independence.  No doubt the terms would be confidential, so irrespective of whether or not you were truly independent the suspicion would exist resulting in reputational damage.  That is exactly how I see the Brixton/Beavertown situation.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2018)

Twattor said:


> Wouldn't that be up to you?  Surely it would come down to the terms of Sky's investment and whether it was on the basis of you retaining full editorial independence.  No doubt the terms would be confidential, so irrespective of whether or not you were truly independent the suspicion would exist resulting in reputational damage.  That is exactly how I see the Brixton/Beavertown situation.


It doesn't matter what I say: the question was whether you would view a board that is almost half owned by the vast wealth of Sky as being remotely classed as 'independent' or not. By having that kind of financial backing and clout it would clearly give me a huge advantage over boards without such multi-billion backers. And that - in my eyes - would mean I would lose all claim to be 'independent'.


----------



## Twattor (Jul 3, 2018)

editor said:


> It doesn't matter what I say: the question was whether you would view a board that is almost half owned by the vast wealth of Sky as being remotely classed as 'independent' or not. By having that kind of financial backing and clout it would clearly give me a huge advantage over boards without such multi-billion backers. And that - in my eyes - would mean I would lose all claim to be 'independent'.


in your eyes, maybe, and probably in the eyes of everyone else.  But that would just be perception.  Whether the boards were actually truly independent would be up to you as the person selling the investment, and the deal you agreed in exchange for the money.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 3, 2018)

editor said:


> It doesn't matter what I say: the question was whether you would view a board that is almost half owned by the vast wealth of Sky as being remotely classed as 'independent' or not. By having that kind of financial backing and clout it would clearly give me a huge advantage over boards without such multi-billion backers. And that - in my eyes - would mean I would lose all claim to be 'independent'.


It's not a zero sum game and so it doesn't really matter.  A decoy question rather than listening to their podcast and discussing their statement directly - why not address the issues they have raised (i.e. retaining full control of what they produce) rather than a nonsense question about Urban75 and Rupert Murdoch - which is obviously emotionally loaded and distorts the argument.

FWIW - if you received investment in these boards to maintain and run them but retained full editorial control without any interference in content, then yes, you would have a strong degree of independence.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2018)

discobastard said:


> It's not a zero sum game and so it doesn't really matter.  A decoy question rather than listening to their podcast and discussing their statement directly - why not address the issues they have raised (i.e. retaining full control of what they produce) rather than a nonsense question about Urban75 and Rupert Murdoch - which is obviously emotionally loaded and distorts the argument.
> 
> FWIW - if you received investment in these boards to maintain and run them but retained full editorial control without any interference in content, then yes, you would have a strong degree of independence.


"A strong degree of Independence" is not the same as full independence. It's a meaningless term. Either you're independent or you're not.

But if you wish to view a company that is 49% owned by a multi-national corporate with €20bn annual revenue as 'independent' that is your call.

Curiously, earlier in this thread you were the one who posted up the link to the shop that now refuses to stock Brixton Brewery products because of Heineken's investment.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 3, 2018)

editor said:


> "A strong degree of Independence" is not the same as full independence. It's a meaningless term. Either you're independent or you're not.
> 
> But if you wish to view a company that is 49% owned by a multi-national corporate with €20bn annual revenue as 'independent' that is your call.
> 
> Curiously, earlier in this thread you were the one who posted up the link to the shop that now refuses to stock Brixton Brewery products because of Heineken's investment.


I don’t think it’s that curious, nothing is black and white. I’m just juggling the ideas around in my head.  

I also wouldn’t say ‘a strong degree of independence’ is meaningless. 

You might argue that before they got investment they weren’t independent if they owed money to a bank that could call in a loan at any time. If they now have investment and with no meddling in what they choose to create and brew but greater distribution opportunities you might say they have more freedom. Including the opportunity to reward employees better. 

While at the same time they may not be technically or legally independent in terms of corporate law. Presumably that’s what you mean when you say ‘independent’?

Quite complicated really.


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2018)

discobastard said:


> I don’t think it’s that curious, nothing is black and white. I’m just juggling the ideas around in my head.
> 
> I also wouldn’t say ‘a strong degree of independence’ is meaningless.
> 
> ...


Why don't you talk to the shop that is now refusing to stock their beer? Perhaps you might listen to their definition of what an independent is. I think they know about the topic than you.

I've told you mine, and it's not a company half owned* by a multi-billion, multi-national global mega-corporate. But if that's your idea of an independent, that's fine. You drink away. 

(*oh sorry, a tiny smidgen under half)


----------



## discobastard (Jul 3, 2018)

editor said:


> Why don't you talk to the shop that is now refusing to stock their beer? Perhaps you might listen to their definition of what an independent is. I think they know about the topic than you.
> 
> I've told you mine, and it's not a company half owned* by a multi-billion, multi-national global mega-corporate. But if that's your idea of an independent, that's fine. You drink away.
> 
> (*oh sorry, a tiny smidgen under half)


I have spoken to the shop. And I also said that I’ll likely choose other independent beers in future if I can. I tend to anyway as you get to try more interesting and varied stuff. And I can’t remember the time I last bought a pint of something that wasn’t independently owned (that’s not an exaggeration). 

And I’m also able to consider the issues involved and what it means. And it isn’t black and white.  

What do you drink?


----------



## editor (Jul 3, 2018)

discobastard said:


> And I’m also able to consider the issues involved and what it means. And it isn’t black and white.


Like I said, if you think they're still independent, that's fine. I don't. End of.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 3, 2018)

editor said:


> Like I said, if you think they're still independent, that's fine. I don't. End of.


It would appear so. 

We’ll be having no nuanced argument here! [emoji1360]


----------



## jezg (Jul 4, 2018)

editor said:


> "A strong degree of Independence" is not the same as full independence. It's a meaningless term. Either you're independent or you're not.


As I responded earlier when asked _we_ think of ourselves as independent but also totally understand if others don't. There are objective measures(ownership %'ge, SIBA membership etc) but obviously it is a very subjective issue too. 
By that same token it's also simplistic to say Independent(however you define it) = Good and Non-Independent(again however you define it) = Bad.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2018)

jezg said:


> By that same token it's also simplistic to say Independent(however you define it) = Good and Non-Independent(again however you define it) = Bad.


Indeed. And that's why I've never ever made such a claim.

However I do take issue - in general terms - with companies who use the PR positives of being seen as an 'independent' when the truth is nowhere near as cut and dried.

But we're from completely different worlds anyway. We were doing a Brixton beer that gave all the profits back to the community before you opened up in Brixton, and the notion of us teaming up with any multinational was unthinkable, and still is.

I'm not knocking what you do and I understand why you do it, but since you teamed up with Heineken, you've become (in my eyes) part of the nu-Brixton that stands for entrepreneurial enterprise, brand expansion and increased profit. Nothing wrong with that of course - we live in a capitalist society - but it's not the Brixton that interests me.

Good luck with your company though.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 4, 2018)

discobastard said:


> What do you drink?


Interesting question.


----------



## alex_ (Jul 4, 2018)

discobastard said:


> What do you drink?



Iirc Green king ipa has been mentioned, which I believe is brewed in small batches by artisans in Bury st Edmunds.

Alex


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> Iirc Green king ipa has been mentioned, which I believe is brewed in small batches by artisans in Bury st Edmunds.
> 
> Alex


Stopped drinking that ages ago not that it has anything _whatsoever _to do with the actual discussion about whether a corporate backed company can be classed as a true independent.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 4, 2018)

editor said:


> Stopped drinking that ages ago not that it has anything _whatsoever _to do with the actual discussion about whether a corporate backed company can be classed as a true independent.


But no answer [emoji16]


----------



## discobastard (Jul 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> Iirc Green king ipa has been mentioned, which I believe is brewed in small batches by artisans in Bury st Edmunds.
> 
> Alex



Greene King - Wikipedia


----------



## alex_ (Jul 4, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Greene King - Wikipedia



No shit.


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2018)

discobastard said:


> But no answer [emoji16]


I drink all sorts of stuff, most of which these days I luckily get given for free as part of my band/DJ rider. So I'm not fussed, but I do enjoy craft beer and also shit lager sometimes. So now you know. Whoopeedo.

But just to make sure you don't look like the kind of sad twat that has to resort to shit ad hominem arguments when they find themselves losing ground, please explain why my personal choice of beverage has _any relevance whatsoever_ to a discussion about whether a corporate backed brewery can be classed as a true independent.  Thanks.



discobastard said:


> Greene King - Wikipedia


Any why are you even posting this up?


----------



## alcopop (Jul 4, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Greene King - Wikipedia


Do they pay London living wage?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 5, 2018)

alcopop said:


> Do they pay London living wage?


They're in Bury St Edmunds!


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2018)

alcopop said:


> Do they pay London living wage?


How many more stupid questions are you going to ask here, FFS?


----------



## alcopop (Jul 5, 2018)

CH1 said:


> They're in Bury St Edmunds!


They have many, many pubs in London!


----------



## alex_ (Jul 5, 2018)

editor said:


> Any why are you even posting this up?



I think he thought my comment about green king was serious.

Alex


----------



## CH1 (Jul 5, 2018)

alcopop said:


> They have many, many pubs in London!


I was hoping for some enlightenment from the article below, but minimum wage not mentioned.

It does however helpfully state that Mr Rooney Anand, Greene King's CEO originally worked managing building sites for Tarmac at the age of 19.

When Anand came to Greene King, his predecessor was descended from the Kings on bis mothers side, and the nephew of Graham Greene was on the  board
Incidentally Graham Greene (as well as being a weirdly depressing novelist) was the brother of Sir Hugh Greene - Director General of the BBC 1960-1989.  Under Sir Hugh we had such innovations as Z Cars and Dr Who. He did not go down too well with Mrs Mary Whitehouse and her National Viewwers and Listeners Association. Whitehouse once commented: "Greene fully understood the destructive power of the satire. Why, knowing its power, did he also use it here against family life, Christianity etc? This is the heart of our complaint against Greene."

So there you have it - Greene King is simultaneously at the heart of the establishment, and also connected with undermining decent family values.
Greene King's Rooney Anand: 'As a CEO, you feel like your performance review is held in public every 12 weeks'


----------



## discobastard (Jul 5, 2018)

alex_ said:


> I think he thought my comment about green king was serious.
> 
> Alex


Not really.  Well maybe you got one over on me   I quite liked the 'small batch' comment though. 

They also do Old Speckled Hen.  And since then Old Crafty Hen and Old Hoppy Hen.  Which is obviously an attempt to get on the bandwagon.  They're not awful, but they're not great.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 5, 2018)

editor said:


> I drink all sorts of stuff, most of which these days I luckily get given for free as part of my band/DJ rider. So I'm not fussed, but I do enjoy craft beer and also shit lager sometimes. So now you know. Whoopeedo.
> 
> But just to make sure you don't look like the kind of sad twat that has to resort to shit ad hominem arguments when they find themselves losing ground, please explain why my personal choice of beverage has _any relevance whatsoever_ to a discussion about whether a corporate backed brewery can be classed as a true independent.  Thanks.
> 
> Any why are you even posting this up?



It’s not an ad hominem and I’m not attacking you.  The idea that BB or Beavertown are now ‘bad’ because they have taken investment from a multinational has been quiet fierce, which makes one assume that you are opposed to them.  And so it is a reasonable question to ask whether you are still prepared to drink beer backed by multinationals or not.  And there are always situations when one has no choice (big gigs tend to mean Heineken or Carling or some other tasteless shit or bust).

Personally I think I’m neither losing ground nor a ‘sad twat’ (thanks - is that a personal attack or not?), and if you think that asking people whether they spend money with these maligned businesses is an ‘attack’ then you’ve missed the point.  I was asked recently whether I spent my money in Acre Lane Tesco (re the LLW argument).  My response was not ‘how dare you ask me that’, it was to explain where I try and spend it as frequently as I can.

I’ve also said I try and drink independent small brew beer when I can.  I am interested in where you stand on that bearing in mind you are quite vehemently anti-corporate.

Can’t say simpler than that really.  If you don’t want to express a position that’s fine.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 5, 2018)

On a lighter note, I've just had a couple of glasses of Bullfinch Cascade at the Sympathetic Ear on Tulse Hill.  Genuinely one of the nicest beers I've tasted for a very long time.  6%, really hazy but not with that heavy syrupy feel you often get with the cloudy beers.

Aaaaaand, it was only £3.40 for 2/3 of a pint makes it about a fiver a pint, which for a small batch brew with bar markup at that ABV makes it quite good value for money.  Sadly not in cans...

IPA
(it's the one right at the bottom of the page)


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2018)

discobastard said:


> It’s not an ad hominem and I’m not attacking you.  The idea that BB or Beavertown are now ‘bad’ because they have taken investment from a multinational has been quiet fierce, which makes one assume that you are opposed to them.


Who has called them "bad"? Where?  

And despite your best efforts to sidetrack the discussion and keep bringing my personal choices into it (which I've already answered), the argument was always whether a brewery that is almost half owned by one of the biggest brewing corporate on the planet could justifiably call itself "independent."


----------



## editor (Jul 11, 2018)

Interesting piece here: 



> “By buying craft brands and lowering the price, [Big Beer] can reduce the price-to-consumers, and force the hand of other craft brewers (particularly large regionals) to lower their price-to-consumer to compete. These price reductions on craft beer shrink the gap between AB InBev’s premium legacy brands and craft brands. Overtime, minimizing this price gap increases the brand equity of their legacy premium brands (Bud and Bud Light), since these brands no longer appear to be at a significant discount. The increase in brand equity for these legacy premium brands suggests consumers should eventually become less price sensitive and AB InBev can take a price increase (claim even more value in brand equity) to generate value.
> 
> This is why, from a business prospective, it sucks when an independent craft brewery “sells out” to AB InBev. For us in the industry, *we are trading out a collaborator for a competitor*, and I personally just don’t believe the repetitive press releases that say the deal is best option for the craft brand and for the employees. Maybe everyone really believes that from the middle on down at AB InBev. But ultimately, it has a much bigger purpose to serve first, before the value it creates for itself can ever be appreciated.
> 
> ...



Here's the original article: 

Watch the Hands, Not the Cards — The Magic of Megabrew


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 11, 2018)

I never thought I'd read the sentence " legacy premium brands (Bud and Bud Light)"!


----------



## alex_ (Jul 11, 2018)

editor said:


> Interesting piece here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is a great article.


----------



## editor (Jul 11, 2018)

snowy_again said:


> I never thought I'd read the sentence " legacy premium brands (Bud and Bud Light)"!


They're awful, but they are immensely popular and, as that article explains, rightly described as "premium." I didn't know that they were made from "30% rice in addition to hops and barley malt," mind. 

But here's something I don't understand. Brixton Brewery say that they are still  a member of the Society of Independent Brewers yet a Guardian article from last year stated:



> These scathing comments come amid an effort by Siba to build a fence around the “craft” label with the launch of a new kitemarking system, the Assured Independent British Craft Brewer seal.
> 
> Its criteria are that brewers must produce less than 200,000 hectolitres a year, abide by Siba’s standards of ingredient quality and – crucially – *be fully independent of any global beer company.*



More: Indie brewers fight back in bitter row over beer brands' craft credentials

And: Camden Town Brewery founder insists big can also be beautiful


----------



## Twattor (Jul 11, 2018)

And yesterday it was announced that Fourpure (Bermondsey) have been bought entirely by Lion (Castlemaine XXXX, Little Creatures) who are themselves owned by Kirin.  Another one bites the dust.


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2018)

Twattor said:


> And yesterday it was announced that Fourpure (Bermondsey) have been bought entirely by Lion (Castlemaine XXXX, Little Creatures) who are themselves owned by Kirin.  Another one bites the dust.


That's really depressing. What chance have real independents got against these faux independents who now have the muscle and financial backing of cash-laden mega-corporates?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 23, 2018)

AntiHipsterMin -availabe at the Beehive while stocks last


----------



## editor (Sep 3, 2018)

Interesting to note that loads of independent brewers pulled out of the 'Beavertown Extravaganza' beer festival once they learnt that the company had flogged off a chunk to Heineken, just like the Brixton Brewery.



> However, in some respects, this might not turn out to be the event that was originally envisioned. When Beavertown announced in June that they had sold an unspecified minority stake of their business to multinational brewing giant Heineken, a significant number of the brewers who had originally planned to attend Beavertown Extravaganza expressed disappointment, and pulled out of the event. Subsequently, Beavertown reduced the price of the tickets from the original £65, offering refunds for ticket-holders who no longer wanted to attend.



The Best Beer Festivals In London In September 2018

The statement from Cloudwater was quite damning: 



> If we had known early this year that Beavertown was working on a minority sale to Heineken, the world’s second biggest beer company behind AB InBev, we’d have pulled out months ago. It is a source of deep frustration that leaves us feeling a little used that around the time tickets were released for sale, a deal was likely already being drawn up with Heineken.
> 
> Pulling out in public with an announcement, rather than pulling out behind the scenes was the right thing to do, though the foundation of this outcome was laid by decisions out of our hands, and against our values. We could not have lived with ourselves to get any closer to the event without letting you all know where we stand.
> 
> ...


Cloudwaterbrew.co | Blog | Tough Calls And A Bigger Picture


----------



## BusLanes (Sep 4, 2018)

Oh I dunno, it is sort of what I expect at this point. Meantime, Little Creatures and all the grandaddies of the newish brewing movements have been tapped on the shoulder and many have sold out. Hard to see why the new wave wouldn't


----------



## alex_ (Sep 4, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> Oh I dunno, it is sort of what I expect at this point. Meantime, Little Creatures and all the grandaddies of the newish brewing movements have been tapped on the shoulder and many have sold out. Hard to see why the new wave wouldn't



I think the really tricky bit is when people who have always banged on and on about independence sell out - that means it was all lies ie Beavertown.

People who were more up front about their objectives have got a lot less grief - fourpure.

Alex


----------



## editor (Sep 4, 2018)

alex_ said:


> I think the really tricky bit is when people who have always banged on and on about independence sell out - that means it was all lies ie Beavertown.
> 
> People who were more up front about their objectives have got a lot less grief - fourpure.


The Brixton Brewery still insist that they're "independent."


----------



## alex_ (Sep 4, 2018)

editor said:


> The Brixton Brewery still insist that they're "independent."



I’m sure by some definition they are.

Alex


----------



## editor (Sep 5, 2018)

alex_ said:


> I’m sure by some definition they are.
> 
> Alex


Not by the definition of all the true independent breweries who are boycotting the likes of Beavertown.


----------



## alex_ (Sep 5, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> Oh I dunno, it is sort of what I expect at this point. Meantime, Little Creatures and all the grandaddies of the newish brewing movements have been tapped on the shoulder and many have sold out. Hard to see why the new wave wouldn't



This is after all why most of them do it.

I don’t have a problem with the ones who sell out to mainstream brewers, I have a problem with the ones who sell an independent image and then sell out to mainstream brewers.

Alex


----------



## CH1 (Oct 12, 2018)

This stuff was on at the Beehive on Thursday. One customer disappointed that Guinness was off tried it on my recommendation - "a bit strong!"

They used to have Titanic beers (from Stoke on Trent) a lot about 10 years ago so was a nice treat to have this strong Russian Stout as a special


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2018)

We're hoping to release a fresh batch of Coldharbour Courage (our delicious charity beer) but aren't chuffed to see that the multinational, recently arrived  mega-backed Brixton Brewery are now pushing a similarly named lager. as far as I know they have zero connection to the street and we were here long before them - and we're not about selling off out business for $$$$$$$.


----------



## alex_ (Oct 13, 2018)

CH1 said:


> This stuff was on at the Beehive on Thursday. One customer disappointed that Guinness was off tried it on my recommendation - "a bit strong!"
> 
> They used to have Titanic beers (from Stoke on Trent) a lot about 10 years ago so was a nice treat to have this strong Russian Stout as a special
> View attachment 149524



Titanic beers are tremendous.


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 13, 2018)

editor said:


> We're hoping to release a fresh batch of Coldharbour Courage (our delicious charity beer) but aren't chuffed to see that the multinational, recently arrived  mega-backed Brixton Brewery are now pushing a similarly named lager. as far as I know they have zero connection to the street and we were here long before them - and we're not about selling off out business for $$$$$$$.



Coldharbour lager? They used to do that well before they were bought out


----------



## alcopop (Oct 13, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> Coldharbour lager? They used to do that well before they were bought out


2015?


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> Coldharbour lager? They used to do that well before they were bought out


We were selling Coldharbour Courage before Brixton Brewery even existed! But, hey, Brand Brixton helps them make more $$$$.


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 13, 2018)

Thought Brixton Brewery was only sold last year. I remember having Coldharbour Lage in 2015 - then it went away for a year or two.


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## BusLanes (Oct 13, 2018)

editor said:


> We were selling Coldharbour Courage before Brixton Brewery even existed! But, hey, Brand Brixton helps them make more $$$$.



Are you planning to redo it? I'd be interested in trying some!


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 13, 2018)

Also, last call for the Four Freedoms Pale Ale launch next Friday at Whirled Cinema (editor, please advise if you don't allow advertising and I'll remove link/post)

Four Freedoms Pale Ale launch party


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> Are you planning to redo it? I'd be interested in trying some!


Definitely - we're just trying to find who we can get to stock it. As usual, all profits will go to local charities.


----------



## alex_ (Oct 13, 2018)

editor said:


> Definitely - we're just trying to find who we can get to stock it. As usual, all profits will go to local charities.



Beer lab ?


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2018)

alex_ said:


> Beer lab ?


We might even be brewing it ourselves as my partner at Brixton Buzz has a brewers licence now (whatever that is).


----------



## jezg (Oct 14, 2018)

editor said:


> We're hoping to release a fresh batch of Coldharbour Courage (our delicious charity beer) but aren't chuffed to see that the multinational, recently arrived  mega-backed Brixton Brewery are now pushing a similarly named lager. as far as I know they have zero connection to the street and we were here long before them - and we're not about selling off out business for $$$$$$$.


I remember drinking the first batch in Kaff, think it contained Guarana? We(Brixton Brewery)  released our first batch in 2015 although we brainstormed the name in 2011 and it celebrates CHL which runs behind the brewery. London Beer Lab also have a beer called Coldharbour Pils and Clarkshaws have Coldharbour Hell Yeah!


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 14, 2018)

jezg said:


> I remember drinking the first batch in Kaff, think it contained Guarana? We(Brixton Brewery)  released our first batch in 2015 although we brainstormed the name in 2011 and it celebrates CHL which runs behind the brewery. London Beer Lab also have a beer called Coldharbour Pils and Clarkshaws have Coldharbour Hell Yeah!



Did you actually stop brewing COldharbour Lager for a bit? Didn't see it about for a while at local places


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2018)

jezg said:


> I remember drinking the first batch in Kaff, think it contained Guarana? We(Brixton Brewery)  released our first batch in 2015 although we brainstormed the name in 2011 and it celebrates CHL which runs behind the brewery. London Beer Lab also have a beer called Coldharbour Pils and Clarkshaws have Coldharbour Hell Yeah!


Yes, there's been several beers using the name that followed our beer, which I believe was the first beer to celebrate Coldharbour Lane.

 Of course the real difference is that we give all the profits away to local charities.


----------



## jezg (Oct 14, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> Did you actually stop brewing COldharbour Lager for a bit? Didn't see it about for a while at local places


Yeah it was originally launched as a "Summer Seasonal" as we lager the beer for 4 weeks(on top of 2 weeks fermentation) and got some new tanks in early 2015 that gave us the capacity we needed to do that. Since then we've brewed it again whenever we've had the room so it's been sporadic!


----------



## CH1 (Oct 20, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> Also, last call for the Four Freedoms Pale Ale launch next Friday at Whirled Cinema (editor, please advise if you don't allow advertising and I'll remove link/post)
> Four Freedoms Pale Ale launch party


I went to this, but didn't recognise any Urbanites.

Not sure how the speeches went _in toto_ cos I didn't get there at the beginning. MP Helen Hayes reminded us that she had voted against article 50. She is a very diligent MP - and seems to be well aware of local issues. If I wasn't so busy trying to help other parties avoid losing their deposits, I would be able to vote for her with a clear conscience.

Cllr Pauline George Herne Hill - Labour - gave an impassioned exhortation. 
Cllr Pete Elliott and Cllr Scott Ainsley were there, but didn't make speeches whilst I was there.

The brewers were chatting with me quite convivially, but I was loath to ask too many people if they were BusLanes in case I was thrown out. Actually Ian Clark of Clarkshaws was the only person I spoke to who was familiar with Urban75.

BusLanes I think you owe a duty to "come out". An ideal occasions might be South London Drinks on 22nd November at Crown and Sceptre.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 20, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> Also, last call for the Four Freedoms Pale Ale launch next Friday at Whirled Cinema (editor, please advise if you don't allow advertising and I'll remove link/post)
> 
> Four Freedoms Pale Ale launch party



As much as I like Clarkshaws and have bought some of these today Im  not so sure about this,



> Four Freedoms is a new delicious, light and fresh pale ale, blended from English and German hops, created by a group of passionate pro-Europeans and brewed by Brixton’s Clarkshaw’s Brewery. The beer celebrates the common aspirational principles of the European Single Market: the four freedoms of movement of goods, capital, services, and labour.





> They wanted a beer that didn’t just have a cute name, but also represented the values of unity that we are in danger of losing.



As much as I opposed Brexit its not for these reasons. It was because debate was mainly about immigration in this country. I know people in London who are remain. But not because they support the "Four Freedoms". 

The Four Freedoms of the single market are for benefit of capitalism not ordinary people.

Four Freedoms didnt work for Greece. What has happened to Greece is hardly great advert for European unity.

Imo we should have stayed but reformed Europe. Supporting "Four Freedoms" is wrong way to do it.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 21, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Imo we should have stayed but reformed Europe. Supporting "Four Freedoms" is wrong way to do it.


You have a point there - though there are/were certain fringe Four Freedomy things which a minority could benefit from. Such as free university education
(extract from German Universities international admissions site)
*3. Get your finances in order *
In order to fulfill student visa requirements, you will need to show proof that you have, or have access to, around €7,908  per year (US$8,722) or €659 (US$727) per month to cover your living costs, although you may find you need more, depending on your lifestyle and spending habits (the average student spends €800/US$877 a month). Living costs vary depending on the location; according to Mercer’s Cost of Living Survey, Munich is currently Germany’s most expensive city, followed by Frankfurt am Main and Berlin.

If you’re concerned about costs, there are scholarships available to support students studying in Germany at various study levels including undergraduate level, despite the tuition itself being free.

Of course being a student in Germany might be a very good way to sample some beers.....


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## BusLanes (Oct 21, 2018)

I will endeavour to come to the drinks next month!

The name was popularily chosen when we threw the question out to friends and supporters, a few of which have used freedom of movement to go abroad to live or study and some who've used it to move to London from abroad. So we were quite happy to go with the label. Our next production is either going to be a Mild called Staying in a Reformed Europe or a Not Returning to an Empire Stout, although alternative suggestions are welcome.


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## alex_ (Oct 21, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> I will endeavour to come to the drinks next month!
> 
> The name was popularily chosen when we threw the question out to friends and supporters, a few of which have used freedom of movement to go abroad to live or study and some who've used it to move to London from abroad. So we were quite happy to go with the label. Our next production is either going to be a Mild called Staying in a Reformed Europe or a Not Returning to an Empire Stout, although alternative suggestions are welcome.



Stay or gose ?

( a bit far out admittedly )

Remainer bitter ?


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## BusLanes (Oct 22, 2018)

In an unexpected turn of events, Larry Love has promised an anti Brexit song. Not that we knew about this till the review was published today.

Alabama 3: Love Brixton, Hate Brexit | Gigwise


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## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> I will endeavour to come to the drinks next month!
> 
> The name was popularily chosen when we threw the question out to friends and supporters, a few of which have used freedom of movement to go abroad to live or study and some who've used it to move to London from abroad. So we were quite happy to go with the label. Our next production is either going to be a Mild called Staying in a Reformed Europe or a Not Returning to an Empire Stout, although alternative suggestions are welcome.



But the beer, which is good , says the four Freedoms. Not just freedom of movement. Its the four Freedoms that the EU leaders keep going on about as fundamental to staying in EU.

They aren't four Freedoms. Its the worst aspect of EU. Its neo liberalism. It just happened that free movement of labour was one of them. Which was done in interest of business. Not for any reason of belief in multiculturalism. If multiculturalism damaged business profits immigration would be stopped straight away.

Im saying this as someone who has EU partner.

Look at Italy. They have been told there budget isn't within EU rules. Despite Italians voting this government in.

Fortunately this country is not in Eurozone. The Euro is crap. Its neo liberalism and has meant that ordinary people in EU have suffered unnecessarily.

So sticking The Four Freedoms on a bottle to get support to stay in EU is wrong to me.

The only reason I supported staying in was because the whole debate here was about immigration. UKIP led the way.

Apart from that EU has been appalling. Greece. The austerity imposed on Greece has led to dire poverty.

What friends and supporters?


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 24, 2018)

It's as I said. We asked our friend and people in our groups for suggestions and this is what we got and we like it.  Whatever your views on the Single Market or Greece, it is pretty amazing to have freedom of movement as a citizen - speaking as someone who has gone through other immigration systems anyway.  It does mean a lot to us and that's one reason why I volunteer on this stuff.


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## Gramsci (Oct 25, 2018)

BusLanes said:


> It's as I said. We asked our friend and people in our groups for suggestions and this is what we got and we like it.  Whatever your views on the Single Market or Greece, it is pretty amazing to have freedom of movement as a citizen - speaking as someone who has gone through other immigration systems anyway.  It does mean a lot to us and that's one reason why I volunteer on this stuff.



You do realise that politicians like Chuka want to stay in EU single market but bring in restrictions on EU immigrants. To help assuage peoples "concerns" on immigration.


----------



## BusLanes (Nov 1, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> You do realise that politicians like Chuka want to stay in EU single market but bring in restrictions on EU immigrants. To help assuage peoples "concerns" on immigration.



I do, but I'm not supporting Chuka per se. Helen Hayes is more on my wave - length on these matters.

To be frank, I don't really care what a particular politician thinks about this topic, I care more what I think about it and it's one of the best parts of the whole deal, even though I don't use it, or plan to (I'm happy enough in Britain). Immigration is tough at the best of times and anything that shifts rights to an individual away from the state and political cycle like this is something I am on board with.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 8, 2018)

Dread to report this - but media person and Wetherspoon chairman Tim Martin was in the Beehive yesterday morning as part of his "No deal Brexit" tour.

The event was supposed to be at 10.30 am, but started a bit late. Looked like quite a few of the young people present might have been crew/staff from other Wetherpoon pubs - most people don't normally turn up in the Beehive in white shirts (the usual Beehive people carried on serving as normal).

Tim Martin was taller than I expected, but his avuncular manner was pretty much what you get on "Question Time". In fact Tim seemed quite chuffed that he had attracted film crews from Japan and Denmark on his tour. (Not in the Beehive though)

His standard reply to questioners - whether their angle was remain or leave was "I agree with you" and then to qualify his agreement. A bit like having a conversation with former Streatham MP Keith Hill. Maybe Tim might be parliamentary material?

I do apologise for attending this event. I wouldn't have even known had it not been for the South London Drinks this week at the Crown & Sceptre. But I found it an interesting experience.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 10, 2018)

Tom Martin is also against the Tories National Living Wage.

JD Wetherspoon boss Tim Martin slams Government's living wage policy after profits at  the pub group shrink | This is Money

I think he might be a ultra Thatcherite.  Like City AM paper. If only markets could be freed from EU / government interference then all would be well. Hence support for No Deal Brexit. There is a logic to his argument.

Mays deal would lead to leaving EU but still being bound by it. Which is pointless.Tim Martin makes more logical sense than May. The May deal is a travesty of what Brexit voters thought they were going to get.

He is not an anti immigration Brexiter I think. He is more of a business man who sees any kind of government interference in the working of business as wrong. The EU being a super state.


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## Maggot (Dec 10, 2018)

CH1 said:


> I do apologise for attending this event. I wouldn't have even known had it not been for the South London Drinks this week at the Crown & Sceptre. But I found it an interesting experience.


I was at those drinks and spotted the poster with Tim Martins visit on, but I didn't see you there.


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## CH1 (Dec 10, 2018)

Maggot said:


> I was at those drinks and spotted the poster with Tim Martins visit on, but I didn't see you there.


I was in the place from 7.10 pm & saw no-one I recognised. Fortunately a friend turned up at about 8.15 so I still managed to get in three Bishop's Tipples and some obscure buy pleasant Brazilian Wetherspoons commission (brewed at Adnams) by 10.30 pm.

I hadn't attended a South London Drinks for some years - in fact saw some of the crew at those Cider events at The Platform these last two or three years.

Why don't you get one of those table flags used at conferences, for the likes of me who get lost? Suggest a EU flag might serve. Should be plenty around - thoufgh not in Wetherspoons, obviously.


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## CH1 (Dec 10, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> I think he might be a ultra Thatcherite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## BusLanes (Dec 11, 2018)

I should have been paying more attention, missing both events!

Back in the day I was quite obsessed by tariffs as an exemplar of free trade, probably because of the historical nature of my reading materials but then I started reading about contemporary trade negotiations and agreements and realised that it was all a lot more complex. Then of course Trump came along and now we're all about TariffMan again


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## Maggot (Dec 11, 2018)

CH1 said:


> I was in the place from 7.10 pm & saw no-one I recognised. Fortunately a friend turned up at about 8.15 so I still managed to get in three Bishop's Tipples and some obscure buy pleasant Brazilian Wetherspoons commission (brewed at Adnams) by 10.30 pm.
> 
> I hadn't attended a South London Drinks for some years - in fact saw some of the crew at those Cider events at The Platform these last two or three years.
> 
> Why don't you get one of those table flags used at conferences, for the likes of me who get lost? Suggest a EU flag might serve. Should be plenty around - thoufgh not in Wetherspoons, obviously.



If you don't know anyone you should take the phone number of someone who is definitely going, or else you have to approach groups of people and ask them if they're from the internet.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 22, 2019)

CAMRA organised Brixton tour - starting at Hero of Switzerland Loughborough Junction Wed 24th April 2019


----------



## CH1 (May 17, 2019)

I happened upon a copy of Lewisham Ledger - a community newspaper which looks like The Times compared to Brixton Bugle's Metro.
A double-page spread called A Shirkers Paradise led me to this Deserter blog reviewing Wetherspoons in SE London
All SE London’s Wetherspoons… Ranked! – Deserter

As far as we in Brixton are concerned neighbouring Wetherspoons come in at
No12 Rockingham Arms - Elephant and Castle
No5 Kentish Drovers - Peckham
No2 Fox on the Hill - Denmark Hill
No1 The Capitol - Forest Hill

I also note that the Moon and Stars - Penge - was no3. Could be worth a  stop trip from Brixton on SE Trains. Nearest station is Kent House.


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## CH1 (Jun 26, 2019)

Had a pint of this excellent ultra hoppy golden beer this evening in Peckham Wetherspoons

Actually it wasn't quite like that - the pump clip used in the Kentish Drovers in Peckham was a copper/gold colour and simply had in large text Twickenham Naked Ladies.

Appreciate this is all very non-pc, but Wikipedia reveals there is actually a sculpture of same name in Twickenham which no doubt inspired the brew.


----------



## alex_ (Jun 26, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Had a pint of this excellent ultra hoppy golden beer this evening in Peckham Wetherspoons
> View attachment 175362
> Actually it wasn't quite like that - the pump clip used in the Kentish Drovers in Peckham was a copper/gold colour and simply had in large text Twickenham Naked Ladies.
> 
> ...



They are on Twickenham riverside The Naked Ladies - Wikipedia

And are only none PC if you think michalangelo’s David is obscene.


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## CH1 (Jun 26, 2019)

alex_ said:


> They are on Twickenham riverside The Naked Ladies - Wikipedia
> 
> And are only none PC if you think michalangelo’s David is obscene.


I was merely reminiscing about the row in the House of Commons bar about beers with such evocative names.
This might have all been in the mind of the editor of the Telegraph in coalition days of slow news before the world turned upside down
Leg-spreader and Slack Alice: The sexist beer names that will make you cringe


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## alex_ (Jun 26, 2019)

CH1 said:


> I was merely reminiscing about the row in the House of Commons bar about beers with such evocative names.
> This might have all been in the mind of the editor of the Telegraph in coalition days of slow news before the world turned upside down
> Leg-spreader and Slack Alice: The sexist beer names that will make you cringe



Ah, yes a lot of those are aimed at the real ale twats end of the beer market I suspect.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 11, 2019)

Anyone know what's going on with the Duke of Edinburgh lately?
I was in there for South London Drinks a few weeks ago and no sign of any Real Ale - but the there was  surfeit of expensive "Craft" super cold fizzy beer, including Brixton Brewery beers. And Amstel.

The Evening Standard carried an article yesterday saying Heineken were under investigation for forcing their beers on pubs which whilst superficially being free houses were actually affiliated to Heineken in some way.

Going on the Duke of Edin burgh's selection it seemed that they might be one such pub. We know they had a problem back in 2009 when owners Pub n Bars went broke, then in 2013 when the pub's foreclosing bank sold the pub on to Solitaire.

Given that it currently behaves somewhat like a Punch Taverns or similar pub - are they actually on a "hidden tie" to Heineken?

Whatever the case they are hardly going to be welcoming pensioners or the unemployed at their prices!!!
Heineken faces claims of forcing beer on publicans


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## editor (Jul 11, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Anyone know what's going on with the Duke of Edinburgh lately?
> I was in there for South London Drinks a few weeks ago and no sign of any Real Ale - but the there was  surfeit of expensive "Craft" super cold fizzy beer, including Brixton Brewery beers. And Amstel.
> 
> The Evening Standard carried an article yesterday saying Heineken were under investigation for forcing their beers on pubs which whilst superficially being free houses were actually affiliated to Heineken in some way.
> ...


Talking of Heineken, I heard the Brixton Brewery were trying to get the Albert to stock their beers but the landlord refused because of the sky high prices they were demanding. Which seems a little odd because it's made - literally - around the corner.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 11, 2019)

editor said:


> Talking of Heineken, I heard the Brixton Brewery were trying to get the Albert to stock their beers but the landlord refused because of the sky high prices they were demanding. Which seems a little odd because it's made - literally - around the corner.


The Albert is a Greene King pub. No doubt they have their own supply chain and won't pay fancy prices.

Even Wetherspoons, which take Fullers London Pride as a premium ale don't stock Brixton ales, as far as I know. I imagine Wetherspoons negotiate deals that cut profits to the bone,  but some local breweries seem happy with that - Sam Brooks of Battersea to name one.


----------



## twistedAM (Jul 14, 2019)

editor said:


> Talking of Heineken, I heard the Brixton Brewery were trying to get the Albert to stock their beers but the landlord refused because of the sky high prices they were demanding. Which seems a little odd because it's made - literally - around the corner.



Yeah, Heineken have set the price of Brixton beers at a ridiculous premium price, possibly the highest in their portfolio next to Lagunitas. They obviously thought it was a funky perhaps edgy name to buy. Never thought much off their brews anyway.


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## editor (Jul 14, 2019)

twistedAM said:


> Yeah, Heineken have set the price of Brixton beers at a ridiculous premium price, possibly the highest in their portfolio next to Lagunitas. They obviously thought it was a funky perhaps edgy name to buy. Never thought much off their brews anyway.


I've honestly never liked a single one of their beers but as you say, they get a lot of mileage out of their heavily advertised Brixton connection.


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## CH1 (Jul 14, 2019)

editor said:


> I've honestly never liked a single one of their beers but as you say, they get a lot of mileage out of their heavily advertised Brixton connection.


I've had some Brixton ales out of fizz taps. Was OK. A bit like Sam Brooks out of fizz taps, but more variety.

These modern sp-called craft beers have much more interesting tastes than your old Stella etc.
But suoer-cooled beer under pressure is actually Keg not real ale.


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## twistedAM (Jul 15, 2019)

editor said:


> I've honestly never liked a single one of their beers but as you say, they get a lot of mileage out of their heavily advertised Brixton connection.



Like it out not that was a canny business move appropriating the name of one of London's best known communities. See also, Camden : they  got snapped up by a multinational as well.


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## editor (Jul 15, 2019)

twistedAM said:


> Like it out not that was a canny business move appropriating the name of one of London's best known communities. See also, Camden : they  got snapped up by a multinational as well.


Absolutely. They were quick to associate themselves with as many authentic iconic Brixton references as possible (despite three of the four owners being Canadian), although they pissed me off when they unveiled their Coldharbour Lager after we already had our Coldharbour Courage beer. And, unlike them, we gave all the profits from our beer to local charities.


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## twistedAM (Jul 15, 2019)

editor said:


> Absolutely. They were quick to associate themselves with as many authentic iconic Brixton references as possible (despite three of the four owners being Canadian), although they pissed me off when they unveiled their Coldharbour Lager after we already had our Coldharbour Courage beer. And, unlike them, we gave all the profits from our beer to local charities.



Funnily the first time anyone representing the Brixton brand was after the Heineken takeover. Some customers actually suggested stocking it but we went with Signature instead as they have supported live music and their brews are better.


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## editor (Jul 15, 2019)

twistedAM said:


> Funnily the first time anyone representing the Brixton brand was after the Heineken takeover. Some customers actually suggested stocking it but we went with Signature instead as they have supported live music and their brews are better.


I think it's just a lazy choice for nu-businesses in Brixton looking to score cred points.

"Oh, let's stock Brixton beers and that way we appear like we're _really_ Brixton we're supporting the local economy (aka Heineken International PLC)."


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## jezg (Jul 15, 2019)

editor said:


> Absolutely. They were quick to associate themselves with as many authentic iconic Brixton references as possible (despite three of the four owners being Canadian), although they pissed me off when they unveiled their Coldharbour Lager after we already had our Coldharbour Courage beer. And, unlike them, we gave all the profits from our beer to local charities.


I'm not sure why 3 of us being Canadian has any bearing, aren't you Welsh!? And anyway my wife's from London but grew up in Canada. Coldharbour Lager was one of our brainstormed beer names from 2011. Oh and we've raised money for and supported local causes since we opened.


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## editor (Jul 15, 2019)

jezg said:


> I'm not sure why 3 of us being Canadian has any bearing, aren't you Welsh!? And anyway my wife's from London but grew up in Canada. Coldharbour Lager was one of our brainstormed beer names from 2011. Oh and we've raised money for and supported local causes since we opened.


Claiming to have 'brainstormed' an idea is a pretty meaningless boast really, but that's not the point anyway.  You knew that the Brixton Buzz 'Coldharbour Courage' had been released long before you released your beer with a confusingly similar name, and we weren't the only people to remark upon it.

And I do personally feel it's a connection I was at liberty to make because I've lived on the street for over a quarter of a century.

And while I'm sure you've done great work for local causes, the ethos of the two beers couldn't be any more different. After all, if anything summed up the 'ethos' of a street famous for squats and activism, I would have thought a brew helping the homeless would be it.

We gave away ALL the money from the beer we brewed and didn't pay ourselves a single penny. And here it is on the front page of the SLP:






Anyway, I don't want to get into a slanging match with you. Your naming of that beer did piss me off, but that's all in the past now and your company seems to be even further away from the ethos of Brixton Buzz now, so no-one's likely to confuse us now when we bring out the next batch!


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## jezg (Jul 16, 2019)

editor said:


> Claiming to have 'brainstormed' an idea is a pretty meaningless boast really, but that's not the point anyway.  You knew that the Brixton Buzz 'Coldharbour Courage' had been released long before you released your beer with a confusingly similar name, and we weren't the only people to remark upon it.


I think I've pointed out before London Beer Lab and Clarkshaws also have beers called Coldharbour Pils and Coldharbour Hell Yeah but you don't seem to have any issue with those for some reason?



editor said:


> We gave away ALL the money from the beer we brewed and didn't pay ourselves a single penny.


Sounds like the recent charity beer we produced which has raised over £6k for charities.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2019)

jezg said:


> I  think I've pointed out before London Beer Lab and Clarkshaws also have beers called Coldharbour Pils and Coldharbour Hell Yeah but you don't seem to have any issue with those for some reason?


The London Beer Lab is a tiny operation compared to your Heineken-backed venture and, of course they helped produce the original Coldharbour Courage. I wish they hadn't used the name too, but there you go. At least they helped us in the past. 



jezg said:


> Sounds like the recent charity beer we produced which has raised over £6k for charities.


Every little bit helps, but if you're going to try to go down the virtue signalling route, I think you could do a bit better with the numbers. £6k is a truly _microscopic_ percentage of your vast turnover.


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## jezg (Jul 16, 2019)

editor said:


> Every little bit helps, but if you're going to try to go down the virtue signalling route, I think you could do a bit better with the numbers. £6k is a truly _microscopic_ percentage of your vast turnover.


I'm not virtue signalling, I'm illustrating your points about us are unbalanced at best and mendacious at worst. This particular beer raised £6k, we constantly support other causes too but don't tend to shout about it.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2019)

jezg said:


> I'm not virtue signalling, I'm illustrating your points about us are unbalanced at best and mendacious at worst. This particular beer raised £6k, we constantly support other causes too but don't tend to shout about it.


What is 'mendacious' about my point that you used a very similar name to our beer two years after we launched, but as a wholly commercial enterprise instead of a charitable one? I know for a fact some people mistook your product for ours and that caused me some concern at the time, seeing as the ethos of the two beers were diametrically opposed.

And you are a Heineken backed venture, are you not?


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## CH1 (Jul 16, 2019)

In view of the spat above - and to even the score - here is Camden's owners fucking up big time:
Evening Standard 16/7/19


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## aussw9 (Jul 17, 2019)

editor said:


> Absolutely. They were quick to associate themselves with as many authentic iconic Brixton references as possible (despite three of the four owners being Canadian), although they pissed me off when they unveiled their Coldharbour Lager after we already had our Coldharbour Courage beer. And, unlike them, we gave all the profits from our beer to local charities.



what the hell does it matter where someone emigrated from?


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## editor (Jul 17, 2019)

aussw9 said:


> what the hell does it matter where someone emigrated from?


Doesn't matter one single bit, but you don't think it's of interest when a corporate-backed company is trading so heavily on the name, history and heritage of a particular locality?


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## jezg (Jul 17, 2019)

editor said:


> What is 'mendacious' about my point that you used a very similar name to our beer two years after we launched, but as a wholly commercial enterprise instead of a charitable one? I know for a fact some people mistook your product for ours and that caused me some concern at the time, seeing as the ethos of the two beers were diametrically opposed.



Ok so we released a beer with a similar name that we conceived 2 years before yours came out, as then did London Beer Lab and Clarkshaws which we have absolutely no issue with and you only have issue with ours. I'd say that's mendacious as are your other comments e.g. implying we don't give profits to charity. 

I also struggle to see how the 2 beers were widely confused as they had very different branding, different names and styles but you clearly feel we benefitted from your efforts. I simply don't believe that has much or any merit. 



editor said:


> And you are a Heineken backed venture, are you not?


Um, yes I've already posted about that earlier in the thread.


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## editor (Jul 17, 2019)

jezg said:


> Ok so we released a beer with a similar name that we conceived 2 years before yours came out, as then did London Beer Lab and Clarkshaws which we have absolutely no issue with and you only have issue with ours. I'd say that's mendacious as are your other comments e.g. implying we don't give profits to charity.


Did you give ALL the profits from Coldharbour Lager to charity because that's what the post you've linked to clearly refers to.

And I certainly encountered many people who had drunk your Coldharbour Lager thinking it was ours, and who thought that all the profits were going to charity. You insist that there was no confusion, but I'm telling you there was.

Can you really not see why it might piss me off a bit? You make money, we give it all away. We couldn't be any more different, but some people thought we were the same entity.


jezg said:


> Ok so we released a beer with a similar name that we conceived 2 years before yours came out


Oh come on. This is piss weak stuff. It doesn't matter a jot what was going on in your head at some point in the past. Unless you actually released, promoted and marketed the stuff, it's a meaningless claim.

It's like me saying I thought of Facebook two years before they went online, therefore it's OK to use their name years after they'd launched.


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## Smick (Jul 17, 2019)

editor said:


> Doesn't matter one single bit, but you don't think it's of interest when a corporate-backed company is trading so heavily on the name, history and heritage of a particular locality?



I used to speak to Mike and Xochitl weekly when Brixton Brewery was in its infancy. 

I got the impression that, although Canadian, they have an emotional link to the area. They really do seem to be good people. Mike certainly never seemed interested in the commercial / profit side of things when I discussed it with him.

I also believe, although may be wrong, that the sale of a stake to Heineken was because they could not cope with the demand and needed new premises within the boundaries of Brixton, rather than taking profit.


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## editor (Jul 17, 2019)

Smick said:


> I also believe, although may be wrong, that the sale of a stake to Heineken was because they could not cope with the demand and needed new premises within the boundaries of Brixton, rather than taking profit.


Surely an appetite for aggressive expansion and forming partnerships with massive corporates to facilitate that desire can only be, ultimately, about creating bigger markets and maximising profits, no?

It's the capitalist blueprint after all but, happily, not every business or entity feels the need for endless growth.


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## Smick (Jul 17, 2019)

editor said:


> Surely an appetite for aggressive expansion and forming partnerships with massive corporates to facilitate that desire can only be, ultimately, about creating bigger markets and maximising profits, no?
> 
> It's the capitalist blueprint after all but, happily, not every business or entity feels the need for endless growth.



Prior to hearing about a Heineken deal, which was publicised after I last saw anyone involved, Xochtil told me that they wanted bigger premises and were being hampered by the rise of smaller churches in Brixton being able to offer higher rents to suitable premises. My initial thought when I heard about the Heineken deal was that it was a route for them to get the premises they wanted.

The pints are about £6. Usually sold to people with more money than sense. Why not expand a business catering to people who feel good by buying your product? The demand is there. I guess the analogy would be that if more people want to hear you DJing, you get a bigger venue. 

What if the corporate partnership means that each of the co-owners can work at it full time instead of only one? Or they can work in a premises with windows and a canteen instead of in a space limited railway arch where they bring a packed lunch? Or they can fulfill the dream of seeing their product in more places than before? Growth doesn't simply have to be about profits, although as a commercial organisation they are entitled to chase them. And any organisation which stagnates tends to shrink and ultimately die.


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## editor (Jul 17, 2019)

Smick said:


> I guess the analogy would be that if more people want to hear you DJing, you get a bigger venue.


A better analogy would be, "why didn't urban75 do a deal with Vice Media/Murdoch or some other mega-multinational so we can could on growing?"

Capitalism is all about growth. About being bigger. About shifting more units and grabbing more of the market share, and doing deals with the big boys to get there, and that's simply not for me . Urban75 had plenty of juicy opportunities in the past for corporate involvement, all of which I turned down and I think the boards are all the better for it. I certainly am.

And even though I don't make any money from running websites, I'm in a position where I can help raise thousands of pounds for my local community, and be involved a site that has made a real positive difference to people's lives - with no data-lurping/advertising, sponsorship or corporate bollocks.

But to go back the DJ analogy: I don't want to play mega-clubs where people get hassled by bouncers, ripped off on the door and ripped off at the bar. I'm more than happy playing modest sized venues where everyone can get in free (although the odd festival gig would be nice!).


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## CH1 (Jul 17, 2019)

editor said:


> Surely an appetite for aggressive expansion and forming partnerships with massive corporates to facilitate that desire can only be, ultimately, about creating bigger markets and maximising profits, no?
> 
> It's the capitalist blueprint after all but, happily, not every business or entity feels the need for endless growth.


You are rushing to judgement there. In more sensible times (pre 2008 in particular) people went to the bank to expand. Then the banks started putting companies into fake ERG to rip off their assets (or at least NatWest/RBS and Halifax/Bank of Scotland notoriously did) - and some of those cases are still outstanding.

If I was asked an opinion by a small brewery - do I take a partnership deal with a mega brewery, or do I take a loan from the bank? - I can't imagine recommending a bank load to them (except possibly Triodos Bank which claims to be ethical though the Skeptical Atheists don't believe them: The Bank that likes to say ‘Quack’: Triodos.

You can't win.


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## editor (Jul 17, 2019)

CH1 said:


> You are rushing to judgement there. In more sensible times (pre 2008 in particular) people went to the bank to expand. Then the banks started putting companies into fake ERG to rip off their assets (or at least NatWest/RBS and Halifax/Bank of Scotland notoriously did) - and some of those cases are still outstanding.
> 
> If I was asked an opinion by a small brewery - do I take a partnership deal with a mega brewery, or do I take a loan from the bank? - I can't imagine recommending a bank load to them (except possibly Triodos Bank which claims to be ethical though the Skeptical Atheists don't believe them: The Bank that likes to say ‘Quack’: Triodos.
> 
> You can't win.


I'm not judging, i'm just saying I don't share this need to grow and expand. There's other things I feel are more important, and for me - personally - letting a corporate own nearly half of this site would make me very, very uncomfortable. I certainly wouldn't feel I could describe it as 'independent' under such circumstances. 

Plenty of enterprises are happy sticking to small scale and not following the capitalist 'expansion' dream too, thankfully.


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## Smick (Jul 17, 2019)

The world is all about growth. The co-op seeks to open more shops and serve more customers. Schools are always trying to get new buildings to get more pupils in. Soviet enterprises sought to grow, to increase output. It's not just capitalism.

I can imagine that Urban 75 has had plenty of options for corporate involvement, having followed boards.ie since its inception, and seen how it sold out. And I think that Urban is all the better for not having chased that quick buck. But Urban has grown since you started it and counts a wide number of users all round the world. The rules of your growth, and what is required, is not the same as others'.

Brixton Brewery seeks to serve higher priced pints to people with disposable income, packaged with nice labels, but had hit a ceiling, preventing the growth that any body needs to prevent stagnation. Making a quid from it might have been very welcome, but I would be surprised if it was their sole or even principal objective. Certainly not in the short term.

Anyway, I don't think we will find consensus. But as a regular poster here who has personal experience of two of the founders of Brixton Brewery, I think they are decent people and it would be negligent of me not to pipe up with a word in their favour.


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## alex_ (Jul 17, 2019)

CH1 said:


> You are rushing to judgement there. In more sensible times (pre 2008 in particular) people went to the bank to expand. Then the banks started putting companies into fake ERG to rip off their assets (or at least NatWest/RBS and Halifax/Bank of Scotland notoriously did) - and some of those cases are still outstanding.
> 
> If I was asked an opinion by a small brewery - do I take a partnership deal with a mega brewery, or do I take a loan from the bank? - I can't imagine recommending a bank load to them (except possibly Triodos Bank which claims to be ethical though the Skeptical Atheists don't believe them: The Bank that likes to say ‘Quack’: Triodos.
> 
> You can't win.



Yes, also a deal with Heineken ( or any mega brewer ) will bring access to expert brewers, procurement specialists and raw materials which wouldn’t have been cheaply available before. Also Heineken will deal with all of their none core activities hr/finance/tech which are important to a business but a distraction to founders.

A deal with a bank would have just brought cash and a lot of pressure.

Alex


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## cuppa tee (Jul 17, 2019)

Time out map showing cheapest pint near London underground stations*
Brixton is £2.10 for bud light in the beehive....
https://media.timeout.com/images/105485556/image.jpg

*cant vouch for accuracy


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## CH1 (Jul 17, 2019)

editor said:


> I'm not judging, i'm just saying I don't share this need to grow and expand. There's other things I feel are more important, and for me - personally - letting a corporate own nearly half of this site would make me very, very uncomfortable. I certainly wouldn't feel I could describe it as 'independent' under such circumstances.
> 
> Plenty of enterprises are happy sticking to small scale and not following the capitalist 'expansion' dream too, thankfully.


If you're happy with the board as it is that's fine by me.

Brixton Brewery seems a different proposition to me.
For a start some of the costs: rent/lease costs, business rates, wages, gas/electricity are inherently liable to inflation, and the business needs to be able to grow to fund this. Then there is marketing, which is critical in the fickle pub market.


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## CH1 (Jul 17, 2019)

cuppa tee said:


> Time out map showing cheapest pint near London underground stations*
> Brixton is £2.10 for bud light in the beehive....
> https://media.timeout.com/images/105485556/image.jpg
> 
> *cant vouch for accuracy


Not a devotee of Greene King "Ruddles" @ £1.99 but its surely more appealing that Budweiser Light, and 11p cheaper. Is Time Out a gas-only publication?


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## T & P (Jul 17, 2019)

cuppa tee said:


> Time out map showing cheapest pint near London underground stations*
> Brixton is £2.10 for bud light in the beehive....
> https://media.timeout.com/images/105485556/image.jpg
> 
> *cant vouch for accuracy


I'm sure there are some good value for money beers to be have at The Beehive, but if you're going to drink Bud Light you might as well drink your own piss.


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## cuppa tee (Jul 17, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Not a devotee of Greene King "Ruddles" @ £1.99 but its surely more appealing that Budweiser Light, and 11p cheaper. Is Time Out a gas-only publication?



Ruddles County was a rare find back in the day. As for Time Out the bloke who edited it a while back I think he has branched out into radio now was most definitely a gasbag.



T & P said:


> I'm sure there are some good value for money beers to be have at The Beehive, but if you're going to drink Bud Light you might as well drink your own piss.



I was going to post something like that but thought there may be fans lurking on the board and C b a to have an argument


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## editor (Jul 17, 2019)

CH1 said:


> If you're happy with the board as it is that's fine by me.
> 
> Brixton Brewery seems a different proposition to me.
> For a start some of the costs: rent/lease costs, business rates, wages, gas/electricity are inherently liable to inflation, and the business needs to be able to grow to fund this. Then there is marketing, which is critical in the fickle pub market.


Can't help but notice there seems to be no shortage of true independent breweries all managing to get along without getting into bed with mega-multinationals.

This process reminds me of how major record companies bought up indie labels in the 90s to provide faux alternative 'cool' outlets backed by clever marketing. 

In my mind, if you're 49% owned by a multinational corporations, you're definitely not what I'd call 'independent.' What do you think?


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## editor (Jul 17, 2019)

cuppa tee said:


> Time out map showing cheapest pint near London underground stations*
> Brixton is £2.10 for bud light in the beehive....
> https://media.timeout.com/images/105485556/image.jpg
> 
> *cant vouch for accuracy


I wonder if the next cheapest pint can be bought at the Dogstar who do their Volden own brew for £3.30, i think. Mind you, the Albert often has cheapo deals on some brands.


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## alex_ (Jul 17, 2019)

editor said:


> I wonder if the next cheapest pint can be bought at the Dogstar who do their Volden own brew for £3.30, i think. Mind you, the Albert often has cheapo deals on some brands.



Antic can do this because small brewers relief applies to their brewing, they save about 28p tax on a 4.5% pint.

Alex


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## editor (Jul 17, 2019)

alex_ said:


> Antic can do this because small brewers relief applies to their brewing, they save about 28p tax on a 4.5% pint.
> 
> Alex


Shame more companies don't do it then.


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## alex_ (Jul 17, 2019)

editor said:


> Shame more companies don't do it then.



There is a reason there are hundreds of microbreweries.


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## editor (Jul 17, 2019)

alex_ said:


> There is a reason there are hundreds of microbreweries.


Thankfully they don't all sell £6 pints.


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## CH1 (Jul 17, 2019)

editor said:


> In my mind, if you're 49% owned by a multinational corporations, you're definitely not what I'd call 'independent.' What do you think?


I think there are different business models.
Take Marston's (formerly Wolverhampton and Dudley Brewery). They have a large range of "local" breweries, eg Ringwood - Hampshire (bought by Marstons for £19m in 2007), Jennings - Cumbria bought by Wolverhampton and Dudley in 2005.

They even opened a new brewery (Eagle Brewery) in Bedford to take over the Young's brands and Bombadier from Charles Wells of Bedford.

Greene King on the other hand have over the years bought up several other breweries, such as Morlands (of Old Speckled Hen fame) and Ruddles (of Ruddles County mentioned above by cuppa tee. Greene Kings policy is always to move production to Bury St Edmunds and close down their new acquisition and develop the site.

I would say that Marstons have preserved more jobs by keeping the various breweries open in Cumbria, Hampshire, Bedford etc. In fact if you visited Marstons website you might be surprised which brands they "own" Marston's Beers and Breweries

Greene King, which we know and love from the Prince Albert in Coldharbour Lane is a dominant employer in Bury St Edmunds, a place not noted for it's poverty I have to say. 

Added to this Greene King's slash and burn acquisitions policy means it is worth £1.99 billion on the stock market, whereas the very diverse Marston, providing employment all over the country is only worth £769 million.

You takes you pick. Personally I think Greene King is a run of the mill brewer of standard English ales not much changed sine the 1960s where Marstons has actually created a more interesting portfolio - albeit by the means you are decrying above.


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## CH1 (Aug 19, 2019)

Greene King fans may be affected by this - a bid to take over GK by CK Asset Holdings of Hong Kong.
Greene King share price up by 50%, but not clear what effect this would have on the operation of the pub chain or the real ale brewing facility.
The former Chief Exec Rooney Anand had stepped down in April.
Can't see any prospect of real ale being brought back at the Prince Albert at this rate.


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## alex_ (Aug 19, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Greene King fans may be affected by this - a bid to take over GK by CK Asset Holdings of Hong Kong.
> Greene King share price up by 50%, but not clear what effect this would have on the operation of the pub chain or the real ale brewing facility.
> The former Chief Exec Rooney Anand had stepped down in April.
> Can't see any prospect of real ale being brought back at the Prince Albert at this rate.



Cheap pound


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## CH1 (Aug 20, 2019)

alex_ said:


> Cheap pound


Or flight capital - from Hong Kong


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## alex_ (Aug 20, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Or flight capital - from Hong Kong



A bit obvious, and deals like this are months in the planning.


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## CH1 (Aug 20, 2019)

alex_ said:


> A bit obvious, and deals like this are months in the planning.


Also Fullers brewery was recently acquired by Asahi - in a much smaller deal.
Seems like contrary to what the Brexiteers are saying the British capitalists are desperately selling off the family silver to foreigners, whoever they might be. 
British Steel to a Turkish pension fund included.


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## alex_ (Aug 20, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Also Fullers brewery was recently acquired by Asahi - in a much smaller deal.
> Seems like contrary to what the Brexiteers are saying the British capitalists are desperately selling off the family silver to foreigners, whoever they might be.
> British Steel to a Turkish pension fund included.
> View attachment 181545



Sorry, I meant obvious to the government of China, and the pound has been falling for a while.


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## BusLanes (Aug 20, 2019)

Brexit brings many benefits to British businesses, it's just not clear what they are or when they're coming or to whom

Although I guess anyone who wants to pick up cheap assets would be pleased.


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## CH1 (Sep 27, 2019)

To supplement the above, I saw this in Fortune magazine: 
"Whatever one’s views on Brexit, the fact is that CK is paying a pre-Brexit price for a post-Brexit asset. The last time the Greene King stock traded at the offer price of 850 pence was in the week before the U.K. voted to leave the EU in June 2016. Since then, shares have fallen some 40%, as British equities have fallen out of favor with international investors, and the U.K. has gone from being the fastest-growing economy in the G7 to the slowest".
Why One of Asia’s Richest Men Is Buying a British Pub Business Right Before Brexit


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## CH1 (Nov 24, 2019)

*Peckham vs Brixton Wetherspoons shock horror.*
I went shopping in Peckham yesterday because I needed particular stuff only available at "Savers" and "Morissons" - currently lacking in Brixton.

I dipped into the Kentish Drovers, and was delighted to find they had Twickenham Autumn Red on. Very nice too.

More shocking - they had completely reupholstered all the seating and it still looked impressively clean. Quite likely the carpet had also been deep cleaned or replaced. The median aged black Caribbean bar staff added an aspect of working class authenticity we so lack in Brixton. Admittedly the Drovers is nicely spacious and manages to combine a few private alcoves with masses of open plan seating.

Popped out to Brixton Iceland this afternoon and dropped into the Beehive - and it was the usual hell hole experience. All seats taken. Guest ales have all sold out(when? Friday?) It seems to be the pub's policy to ensure there are never trained staff on at weekends who can change barrels. Or is it a ploy to force customers up-market to London Pride for example - £2.89 shit compared to the normal £2.10 "guest".

I hesitate to complain in case Wetherspoons upgrade the place. The Rockingham Arms at Elephant and Castle charge £3.15 for guest ales now. One of the benefits of being in Zone One with all those ethnically cleansed flats they've got courtesy of Southwark Council. It hasn't improved the toilets though. All of these Wetherspoons pubs in South London have uniquely poor men's toilets.


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## jimbarkanoodle (Nov 26, 2019)

Recently i lived near the Kentish Drovers and always despaired about how shit it was. I quickly learned to never order any food in there, nor look at anyone i didnt know in the smoking area. 

Interesting to hear it has been done up, but the state of the chairs and carpet were never my main concern, more the overall bleakness of the place. 

The Brixton Wetherspoons is no better (nor worse IMO) but has the added disadvantage of being too small for purpose, particulalrly when there is a big gig on at the Academy. 

The Holland Tringham in Streatham however, now your talking.


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## CH1 (May 7, 2020)

Obviously cans are supposed to be "craft" rather than "real" - but I just wanted to draw people's attention to a farly new offering from Lidl
 
The funny thing about this is the cans are rather cheaper than the bottled equivalent - and also stronger.
the abv of the bottled product is 4.3% I think and they are £1.09/500mL bottle.

The reason I'm posting  though is the small print above - note that in Scotland and Wales the price of the 4 pack is £5 - presumably because they have minimum pricing.

According to a briefing paper in the House of Commons Library the following currently applies:

*Licensing policy in Scotland *
Alcohol licensing is a devolved matter. The Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) Scotland Act 2012 paved the way for the introduction of MUP. The Scottish Whisky Association unsuccessfully challenged the legislation in the European and Scottish courts. A minimum unit price of 50p per unit was introduced on 1 May 2018. 

*Licensing policy in England and Wales*
A ban on selling alcohol below the level of alcohol duty plus VAT has been in place since 28 May 2014. This was introduced through the Licensing Act 2003 (Mandatory Conditions) Order 2014. In March 2020, the Government said there were “no plans for the introduction of MUP in England” although it would continue to monitor the progress of MUP in Scotland and consider the evidence of its impact. 

*Public health policy in Wales *
The Public Health (Minimum Price for Alcohol) (Wales) Act 2018 enabled the introduction of MUP on public health grounds, an area within the Welsh Assembly’s legislative competence. A minimum unit price of 50p was introduced from 2 March 2020.

That is my contribution to nerdy debate on beer (real or otherwise) pending a pub reopening.


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## CH1 (May 19, 2020)

Paid a rare visit to Sainsburys  Tulse Hill on Monday.
They had Marston's Old Empire on offer £1.25 for a 500 mL bottle, which beats Lidl's £1.39
Morrison's Camberwell Green had it a £1.25 last week - thought the normal price is £1.75

More interesting- because I'd never tried it - was Badger's "The Cranborne Poacher" @ £1.50

I thought it tasted a bit odd for a beer - rather sweet and heavy - but pleasant nevertheless.
There is a review here The Cranborne Poacher – We Try Beer


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## IC3D (May 20, 2020)

I assumed everyone was on the hard stuff now. Just me.


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## CH1 (Jun 1, 2020)

I felt moved to post this snippet from last Tuesday's Standard - which illustrates the continuing consolidation and manipulation in the real ale market.

Roger Protz - the doyen of beer fanciers has a detailed anaysis: https://protzonbeer.co.uk/comments/2020/05/23/merger-will-marston-s-lose-its-pedigree

All this could affect beer choice in Brixton. I don't know much about the more expensive pubs, but from what I've seen the Effra Social for example carries Martson's real ale brands. Wetherspoons pubs generally have a fair quota of Marstons on hand-pump, particularly at the Fox on the Hill.

Also important - at least to me - is choice in the bottled ale market. Tescos, Lidl, Sainsbury's and Morrisons all sell a lot of Marstons bottle ales (under all sorts of names. Marstons unusually took over other breweries and kept many of them open and trading. Unlike Greene King, which asset stripped its targets - except Bellhaven. As Roger Protz points out Greene King was itself taken over by a Hong Kong hedge fund last year).


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## CH1 (Jun 10, 2020)

Lidl has started stocking this in their "craft ale" cans section. The reviews below done by typical beer fanciers talking of "grassy notes" etc dispute the definitions - ie it's not what is says on the tin! (though the tin got a German design Award 2020)
Reviewer no1 is quite damning, but no2 likes the taste very much. I thought it was pretty good myself.

*SteamBrew ( Lidl ) Session IPA*


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## nick (May 20, 2021)

Here's one that I hadn't heard of: Friendship Adventure
Beer Selection

Coldharbour lane - and they give a small amount to Baytree Centre with every order - which is better than nothing


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## CH1 (May 20, 2021)

nick said:


> Here's one that I hadn't heard of: Friendship Adventure
> Beer Selection
> 
> Coldharbour lane - and they give a small amount to Baytree Centre with every order - which is better than nothing


Gramsci reported on their licensing hearing Loughborough Junction chitter-chatter


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## nick (May 20, 2021)

Bloody gramsci with his bloody finger on the bloody pulse. 
How can the rest of us hope to contribute news if he is always there first ?


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## CH1 (Jul 17, 2021)

I went to a meting at the Crown and Sceptre today [former Wetherspoon top of Brixton Hill].
Service was quite efficient - but in order to choose a beer I actually had to saunter over to a roped off bar to look at the pump clips.

My choice went to Twickenham Naked Ladies. I've had it before at the Peckam Wetherspoons pre covid.
Really good beer - unusual hopping. Perhaps a bit like Adnams Ghost Ship, if people are familiar with that.

Twickenham brewery seems worthy of support from the real ale crowd. Glad to see the owners of the Crown and Sceptre still keeping these local real ale brewers on.


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## CH1 (Jun 2, 2022)

This surprised me at the Fox on the Hill today

Portobello Brewery "session ale". No American hops. Tasted like a more refined version of Sam Brooks Pump House.
As a former employee (of Decca) I had to try it. It is what it is. No notes of "The Rolling Stones" or "Götterdämerung" however.


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## Callie (Jun 2, 2022)

Anyone had any Dogs Grandad beers? Think they have a place on Brixton Station Rd?


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## alex_ (Jun 2, 2022)

Callie said:


> Anyone had any Dogs Grandad beers? Think they have a place on Brixton Station Rd?



Their tap room is good - they have some interesting beers on - their own, but a good range


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## Torpid Scorpion (Jun 2, 2022)

The (dogs grandad) black ipa was quite good.


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## CH1 (Jun 2, 2022)

Torpid Scorpion said:


> The (dogs grandad) black ipa was quite good.


sounds worth trying.


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## alex_ (Jun 2, 2022)

alex_ said:


> Their tap room is good - they have some interesting beers on - their own, but a good range



Though to be fair best tap room in Brixton is london beer lab.


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## CH1 (Aug 27, 2022)

There is a nice centre page spread in the latest Brixton Bugle about local brewers - including asking each which beer they like from their competitors. Nice to see a non-divisive approach.
The one BusLanes sampled is mentioned but not reviewed or interviewed
The pictures on Google make it look rather grand Craft Metropolis - Brixton · Arch 263, 241 Coldharbour Ln, London SW9 8RR


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