# Noise complaints about clubs and venues in central Brixton



## editor (Aug 24, 2012)

Following on from the thread about the closure of the South Beach, I thought it was worth bringing this council initiative to a wider audience

Not to belittle the real annoyance of late night loud noise, but I do wonder what percentage of these complaints are from new arrivals who have bought properties previously occupied by the Rushcroft Road squatters.

I'd hardly call Market House a 'new' venue given that there's been a late bar there for over ten years (save its 'fish market' months).


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## colacubes (Aug 24, 2012)

As I said on the other thread, although it mentions Market House, it doesn't say that it's one of the venues that's being looked at.  As someone who lives right in the town centre, the only real problem with that venue (and actually same goes for most of the bars and clubs on CHL/Atlantic Road) is anti-social behaviour when people leave at chucking out time, and tbh there's not a lot you can do about that.  At worse it's a bit of shouting and the occasional scrap.

The one I'm surprised not to see on that list is Brixton Club house.  Now that is noisy.  To the point that with double-glazing and all windows shut you can still hear exactly what song they're playing.  Sometimes, when they've got a roof party on, you can hear it across all the streets in central brixton as if you were in there.  Whilst I just find it a bit irritating, I know people, particularly those who have bedrooms at the front of their places are very pissed off about it.  And mostly those are people who've lived there 10 years plus.  If my bedroom wasn't at the back of my place, I'd be a lot more pissed off.


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## Kanda (Aug 24, 2012)

Electric Social have had loads of complaints. They're no longer allowed to use the outside space as well as loads of other problems with their licence etc.


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## DJWrongspeed (Aug 24, 2012)

Neither is Electric Brixton (Fridge). I noticed all the complaints about Fridge Bar but wasn't sure where people live who hear all this stuff? Brixton is a busy road alot of the time?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 24, 2012)

When Market House was Living Bar they put loads of huge extractor fans in that back right onto the flats behind. This was when there was a mix of short-lifers and council tenants. Also they'd throw out all the empty bottles at about 4am waking tenants. There were complaints a-plenty. Although there have been enforcement notices (mainly about ripping out the original windows, the council didn't actually enforce the enforcement order iyswim). Cynical old moi wonders whether this is now being taken seriously by Steve 'Bastard' Reed because it's now owner-occupiers....


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## RaverDrew (Aug 24, 2012)

fucking nimby wankers with too much time on their hands


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## colacubes (Aug 24, 2012)

See, I think part of the problem, is that some club and bar owners and punters assume cos it's a town centre they can get away with what they want.  Electric Social is another example of a place that went up right next door to loads of pre-existing residential.  I think most long-term centre residents are generally accustomed to noise and rarely complain about it.  However, from my own experience, part of the problem comes when the venue has a 'fuck you' attitude when people mention the problems.  I know people who have informally tried to sort this sort of stuff out and have only resorted to calling the council etc. because they've been ignored.

I can see what you're getting at Ed - and I suspect it will become more problematic once Clifton Mansions and Rushcroft Road are converted, particularly for places like 414, The Albert, Dogstar etc which have been around for years and genuinely cause few problems.  But, there are some other venues that take the piss.


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## qosno1 (Aug 24, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Steve 'Bastard' Reed


 
Cllr Steve 'Bastard' Reed, lets give him his full title.


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## Rushy (Aug 24, 2012)

nipsla said:


> The one I'm surprised not to see on that list is Brixton Club house. Now that is noisy. To the point that with double-glazing and all windows shut you can still hear exactly what song they're playing. Sometimes, when they've got a roof party on, you can hear it across all the streets in central brixton as if you were in there. Whilst I just find it a bit irritating, I know people, particularly those who have bedrooms at the front of their places are very pissed off about it. And mostly those are people who've lived there 10 years plus. If my bedroom wasn't at the back of my place, I'd be a lot more pissed off.


 
I think this is because action is currently being taken against that venue. They were recently fined and have a planning investigation ongoing.

I can't hear it myself but I know people up Brixton Hill who are thoroughly pissed off with it. (And they have lived there for about 50 years).


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## colacubes (Aug 24, 2012)

Rushy said:


> I can't hear it myself but I know people up Brixton Hill who are thoroughly pissed off with it. (And they have lived there for about 50 years).


 
I heard that too, which just goes to show how epic their noise levels are.  You really shouldn't be able to hear it on Brixton Hill.


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## Rushy (Aug 24, 2012)

editor said:


> View attachment 22391
> 
> Following on from the thread about the closure of the South Beach, I thought it was worth bringing this council initiative to a wider audience
> 
> ...


 
I know a couple of those who instigated the meetings and 'walkabouts' with Cllr Nosegbe which led to this letter and they have lived in their current Housing Association flat for 50 years. They want to continue to enjoy living there.

I have been living in my current place for 12 years. One of the clubs opened up at the same time and my own noise problems began five years later. This coincided with refurbishments which breached sound proofing, additional and upgraded sound systems, poor management, planning permission and licence breaches. Initial attempts to find a remedy were directed to the venue managers and after responses varying from indifferent to threatening the complaints were directed to the council.


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## Rushy (Aug 24, 2012)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Neither is Electric Brixton (Fridge). I noticed all the complaints about Fridge Bar but wasn't sure where people live who hear all this stuff? Brixton is a busy road alot of the time?


 
There are about 15 flats (incl. privately owned, privately let and housing coop) and an old people's home almost directly opposite The Fridge Bar's doors. The venue did not cause any problems before the sound system was upgraded at ground floor level where the doors are often kept open. Problems are usually after 3am mid week when the road is actually pretty quiet.

There were also regular problems on Porden Road where punters would congregate and mess about with their cars until the early hours - lots of stereos, wheel spinning, revving and general commotion. A bit like Z Bar used to be except The Fridge Bar is on a red route so it goes on behind rather than in front. AFAIK the police largely managed to get that under control.


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## Rushy (Aug 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> fucking nimby wankers with too much time on their hands


 
IME that is pretty much the line which most of the club owners have taken which is one of the reasons that there is so much confrontation.


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## RaverDrew (Aug 24, 2012)

If you value your peace n quiet so much, then why live near a busy main road with nightclubs and bars ?


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## Winot (Aug 24, 2012)

RaverDrew said:


> If you value your peace n quiet so much, then why live near a busy main road with nightclubs and bars ?


 
Did you actually _read_ the posts you are commenting on?


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## mansionsgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

I so agree.. esp on Sunday.. i heard they may not even have a full license for the outdoors part..


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## ajdown (Aug 24, 2012)

I don't know about noise from clubs in central Brixton but the noise from the pentecostal church at the back of the old Telegraph on New Park Road is certainly unreasonable at their "chucking out time" which is often after 10.30pm.  Ok that may not be particularly late by some people's standards but we're often in bed by then due to early starts, and if it was one evening a week that's one thing but sometimes it's 3 or 4 nights a week, and all so unnecessary.


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## twistedAM (Aug 24, 2012)

nipsla said:


> The one I'm surprised not to see on that list is Brixton Club house. Now that is noisy. To the point that with double-glazing and all windows shut you can still hear exactly what song they're playing. Sometimes, when they've got a roof party on, you can hear it across all the streets in central brixton as if you were in there. Whilst I just find it a bit irritating, I know people, particularly those who have bedrooms at the front of their places are very pissed off about it. And mostly those are people who've lived there 10 years plus. If my bedroom wasn't at the back of my place, I'd be a lot more pissed off.


 

I don't think it's in Brixton Hill ward whereas the other four are. I don't think ward councillors can raise issues like this outside their boundaries.


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## Rushy (Aug 24, 2012)

twistedAM said:


> I don't think it's in Brixton Hill ward whereas the other four are. I don't think ward councillors can raise issues like this outside their boundaries.


Veranda and Social are in Ferndale ward but I think a lot of the complaints are coming from Porden which is in Brixton Hill. Likewise some of the other venues are in Brixton Hill but complaints are coming from Tulse Hill Ward. I am pretty sure that this is supposed to be a Brixton-wide initiative.


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## twistedAM (Aug 24, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Veranda and Social are in Ferndale ward but I think a lot of the complaints are coming from Porden which is in Brixton Hill. Likewise some of the other venues are in Brixton Hill but complaints are coming from Tulse Hill Ward. I am pretty sure that this is supposed to be a Brixton-wide initiative.


 
So that backs up my theory of why they targetted just those four: they're either in the ward or complaints affect residents in the ward.


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## colacubes (Aug 24, 2012)

twistedAM said:


> I don't think it's in Brixton Hill ward whereas the other four are. I don't think ward councillors can raise issues like this outside their boundaries.


 
I did wonder if that might be the case.  Market House and Brixton Club House would be Coldharbour.


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## twistedAM (Aug 24, 2012)

nipsla said:


> I did wonder if that might be the case. Market House and Brixton Club House would be Coldharbour.


 
..and I guess B Hill residents are not affected by the noise so much and haven't complained against those particular places.


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## colacubes (Aug 24, 2012)

twistedAM said:


> ..and I guess B Hill residents are not affected by the noise so much and haven't complained against those particular places.


 
Apparently some have re Brixton Club House (see up thread).  Market House is fine as far as I can tell, but those in Rushcroft Road may say differently.


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## kalibuzz (Aug 24, 2012)

editor said:


> View attachment 22391
> 
> Following on from the thread about the closure of the South Beach, I thought it was worth bringing this council initiative to a wider audience
> 
> ...


 none of them are new venues, some may be under new management but have been around for donkey years, people used to park all over the place to get to Mass, Bug Bar, Fridge Bar, Seejays/Zbar and whatever else it has been called over the years, thumping base, soundsystems blaring out, that was Brixton, first they tuned down the record shops (try living across from Suipertone etc as it was back in the day ) and now the bars/clubs, those that play bass based music and attract 'the wrong crowd', "what and who do they think they are? In the Caribbean? Shut them down and send them to Thornton Heath or Croydon or wherever", the noise police has arrived, yes, the screaming of halleluja at 10am has never pleased me, including wild church music and the lot, but I knew what the place was like when I moved here and that was the reason I moved here, loud and lively, essence of Brixton, old grumpies and new arrivals have finally managed to kill off everything that was different about the place and that includes this lovely forum, totally spineless, bar some. there is not even a debate on here anymore, . I have had several friends that moved away because they could not cope with the noise anymore, so be it, live and let live, Brixton was always loud


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## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2012)

nipsla said:


> As I said on the other thread, although it mentions Market House, it doesn't say that it's one of the venues that's being looked at. As someone who lives right in the town centre, the only real problem with that venue (and actually same goes for most of the bars and clubs on CHL/Atlantic Road) is anti-social behaviour when people leave at chucking out time, and tbh there's not a lot you can do about that. At worse it's a bit of shouting and the occasional scrap.
> 
> The one I'm surprised not to see on that list is Brixton Club house. Now that is noisy. To the point that with double-glazing and all windows shut you can still hear exactly what song they're playing. Sometimes, when they've got a roof party on, you can hear it across all the streets in central brixton as if you were in there. Whilst I just find it a bit irritating, I know people, particularly those who have bedrooms at the front of their places are very pissed off about it. And mostly those are people who've lived there 10 years plus. If my bedroom wasn't at the back of my place, I'd be a lot more pissed off.


 

Yes I can hear it from my end of Brixton. I was on the roof last weekend and it started up in the day. They have sound system on roof. Its not a roof party its a regular paying club on the roof in summer. These are profit making business enterprises. I did look it up on planning a while back. The original extension of the Prince of Wales A3 upstairs was for hotel and members club. There were conditions on use of terraces. 

That was bollox then.


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## quimcunx (Aug 24, 2012)

I went on the roof a few weeks ago in the afternoon.  There was no one else there but the moment we went up there they put music on which was much louder than it needed to be, especially as we were just wanting a drink and a chat.  We asked them to turn it down but he said it was controlled from downstairs so he'd ask when he next went down.   

I'm trying to remember if there were also decks on the roof.


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## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> none of them are new venues, some may be under new management but have been around for donkey years, people used to park all over the place to get to Mass, Bug Bar, Fridge Bar, Seejays/Zbar and whatever else it has been called over the years, thumping base, soundsystems blaring out, that was Brixton, first they tuned down the record shops (try living across from Suipertone etc as it was back in the day ) and now the bars/clubs, those that play bass based music and attract 'the wrong crowd', "what and who do they think they are? In the Caribbean? Shut them down and send them to Thornton Heath or Croydon or wherever", the noise police has arrived, yes, the screaming of halleluja at 10am has never pleased me, including wild church music and the lot, but I knew what the place was like when I moved here and that was the reason I moved here, loud and lively, essence of Brixton, old grumpies and new arrivals have finally managed to kill off everything that was different about the place and that includes this lovely forum, totally spineless, bar some. there is not even a debate on here anymore, . I have had several friends that moved away because they could not cope with the noise anymore, so be it, live and let live, Brixton was always loud


 
Rubbish

I have lived in Brixton since 81.

When I was first here pubs closed at 11. The market closed at 6 and half day Wednesday. It also did not open Sunday.

The Atlantic was old school West Indian pub. Closed 11 and never a noise problem. Then Brixton Challenge and change in licensing laws came along.

Suddenly the Atlantic changed to Dogstar. From being a pub on ground floor the license was extended to 2 upper floors. Also late hours were applied for and got. Then the new owner put in sound systems in ground floor and first floor. 

There was noise problems straight away. Should have opposed it at beginning but did not realise it would be a problem.

A war of attrition with "Dogstar Larry" led to some protection from the thumping bass. Which is the problem that people complain about. 

I grew up in area with a lot of pubs in Plymouth. But they were pubs not clubs with big sound systems. I can deal with people shouting and arguing in street. Thats not a problem to me.

I was chatting to a Black British friend of mine who works in Brixton. Telling her latest gossip. Told her about a noisy shop been trying to deal with ( with little success). Said to her I thought some of this is cultural differences. What I ( or my neighbours who are affected) might think is problem they might think is normal. As having speakers and making noise is part of there Carribean culture. Here answer was that rubbish. She would not want to have them opposite her. And she lives down South London way.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

twistedAM said:


> ..and I guess B Hill residents are not affected by the noise so much and haven't complained against those particular places.


 
I know someone who complained about the noise from George IV


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## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2012)

Rushy said:


> IME that is pretty much the line which most of the club owners have taken which is one of the reasons that there is so much confrontation.


 
Yes that was Dogstar Larry line. Plus he also argued he was regenerating Brixton and anyone who complained was against change in Brixton.

Also the Labour Group supported the late night entertainment sector as it  was part of Brixton Challenge business plan.

Im surprised a Labour Cllr has taken this issue up. As I always felt the Labour Group supported the late night licensing in central Brixton. They did with Larry.


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## Ol Nick (Aug 24, 2012)

Trinity Homes on Acre Lane is the oldest surviving residential building in Brixton. And from the (19)90s onwards there's been a succession of Drum and Bass clubs set up next to it. Next to a home for old people.

The change over the last 20 years has been a change in people's sense of entitlement to make noise at whatever time of day, and wherever, they are. I blame the invention of the transistor and people's bad character.


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## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2012)

nipsla said:


> I can see what you're getting at Ed - and I suspect it will become more problematic once Clifton Mansions and Rushcroft Road are converted, particularly for places like 414, The Albert, Dogstar etc which have been around for years and genuinely cause few problems. But, there are some other venues that take the piss.


 
The problem is that change of ownership can mean that a bar that has been run in a reasonable fashion suddenly becomes a problem.

The Dogstar was a real problem. It is not so bad know due to a lot of complaints in past leading to conditions being put on its use. Also a change in ownership to someone not as bad as Larry was.

So how long a place has been around is not the issue.


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## Ax^ (Aug 24, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> So how long a place has been around is not the issue.


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## kalibuzz (Aug 25, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I was chatting to a Black British friend of mine who works in Brixton. Telling her latest gossip. Told her about a noisy shop been trying to deal with ( with little success). Said to her I thought some of this is cultural differences. What I ( or my neighbours who are affected) might think is problem they might think is normal. As having speakers and making noise is part of there Carribean culture. Here answer was that rubbish. She would not want to have them opposite her. And she lives down South London way.


  I suggest you take a trip to any Caribbean capital, especially Kingston, evn 80 year olds don't bat an eye lid to loud music, they go to dances still themselves, the Atlantic was an 'old man's pub' not a club, there is a difference, obiously everybody is different, I find shouting and arguing in the street more offensive than loud music at any time, but usually one follows the other as I said before, when all the complainers have managed to shut down the diversity that attracted themto the area in the first place, people will move towards where they have gone, as they lack creativity and realness yet are attracted by it


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## TruXta (Aug 25, 2012)

Realness = loud music? WTF kinda world do you live in?


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## IC3D (Aug 25, 2012)

The gentrifying of parts of London does cause the shutting down bars aimed at black or mixed customers. In Finsbury Park in the last few years I've seen these bars get shut down after campaigns against them by the same people that frequent the formally local/old man pubs now Gastro/Hipstre ghettos.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 25, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> The problem is that change of ownership can mean that a bar that has been run in a reasonable fashion suddenly becomes a problem.


This is my experience. The Green Man at Loughborough Junction springs to mind. It used to be a great local Black-run old school pub. They did music and it was never a problem. It was a great pub and an asset to the community. The proprietor died and it became gangsta central. It's now no longer a pub at all.


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## kalibuzz (Aug 25, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Realness = loud music? WTF kinda world do you live in?


not one where I feel the need to videotape people so that I can make complaints about noise, that's for sure, playing into the ouncil's hands to get rid of everything and everyone that threatens their corruption and nepotism, as one can see they are literally jumping at the opportunity


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## TruXta (Aug 25, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> not one where I feel the need to videotape people so that I can make complaints about noise, that's for sure, playing into the ouncil's hands to get rid of everything and everyone that threatens their corruption and nepotism, as one can see they are literally jumping at the opportunity


 
Dunno what that is all about. I like loud music as much as the next person, but I also like places that try to have fairly amicable relations to its neighbourhood. A lot of these places blatantly take the piss. I just find it laughable that you equate bass-heavy music with "the real Brixton", as if big bass is somehow a marker of authenticity. There's white people living here too ya know?


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## Tankus (Aug 25, 2012)

Ol Nick said:


> ...........The change over the last 20 years has been a change in people's sense of entitlement to make noise at whatever time of day, and wherever, they are. I blame the invention of the transistor and people's bad character.


Bit more than that ...I used to work in  electric market in the late 80's .....and we had to take delivery's in before the market got fully set up (around 6am)and all the stalls out ,  otherwise we couldn't get a rigid back up the road.......had lambeth environmental officer around several times over complaints about the noise ....threatening to take action  ...never came to anything  ........, live above retail and a market ... its somewhat expected  ?

powerful base must be a killer though ...


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## kalibuzz (Aug 25, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Dunno what that is all about. I like loud music as much as the next person, but I also like places that try to have fairly amicable relations to its neighbourhood. A lot of these places blatantly take the piss. I just find it laughable that you equate bass-heavy music with "the real Brixton", as if big bass is somehow a marker of authenticity. There's white people living here too ya know?


 that was in response to someone earlier denying the cultural factor which does play a part, take a look around Carnival tomorrow, and Ladboke Grove going from one of the major West Indian immigration areas, to club/party area and dead end stoosh area to what it is now, residents fighting every year to shut the Carnival down, they have already reduced it to a fraction of what it used to be. I do equate it with the real Brixton, especially as it has been suppressed over a few years back and Brixton is nowhere near what it used to be. I am not saying it's all bad, as stated before, people like different things, but the real issues are not adressed just moved towards the outskirts, and obviously the councellors will love that, money talks and they will have less problems with people, cutting services, etc and why exactly should I support that?


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## TruXta (Aug 25, 2012)

I agree that the overwhelmingly white influx of gentrifiers has brought different tastes and there is a cultural side to dancehall/d'n'b/similar places being subject to more push and scrutiny, but other places that aren't black are also taking the piss, so it's more a case of proprietors taking the piss and feeling entitled and the council not enforcing what regulations do exist. It's one thing bringing down the roof of a club, it's quite another bringing down the roof of someone living 5 streets away. If you can't be bothered to soundproof your club you can fuck off really (not you personally).


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## kalibuzz (Aug 25, 2012)

I think a lot relates to people parking up, doors open stereo on full blast


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## ajdown (Aug 25, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> I think a lot relates to people parking up, doors open stereo on full blast


 
We get that and we're off a sidestreet at the top of Brixton Hill; this isn't just a Central Brixton problem, it's neither a colour or class based issue - it's just people being inconsiderate arseholes at all hours of the day and night.


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## TruXta (Aug 25, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> I think a lot relates to people parking up, doors open stereo on full blast


 
Not helping, no.


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## Rushy (Aug 25, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> as I said before, when all the complainers have managed to shut down the diversity that attracted themto the area in the first place, people will move towards where they have gone, as they lack creativity and realness yet are attracted by it





TruXta said:


> Realness = loud music? WTF kinda world do you live in?





kalibuzz said:


> not one where I feel the need to videotape people so that I can make complaints about noise, that's for sure, playing into the ouncil's hands to get rid of everything and everyone that threatens their corruption and nepotism, as one can see they are literally jumping at the opportunity


 

The reason people take recordings is exactly because the council is not jumping at the opportunity to deal with noise nuisance.

For instance, it took six years of complaints to get Lambeth to recognise that Mass was not complying with existing noise related licence conditions - which Mass signed up to when they took on the lease to operate in a residential area and next to an old people's home. They managed to operate for the first six years without blasting homes with bass - why should that need to change?​​The council gave planning permission for Dex above KFC subject to strict and specific conditions about noise levels, keeping windows closed and limiting access to the roof which they blatantly ignore to the extent that they have 24hr sound systems on the roof.​​Bah Humbug's planning approval included a condition that it close at 12 midnight and that no amplified noise be audible outside the building. This was adhered to until 2005 when the owners of Mass purchased the lease and joined it with Bug Bar and turned from a 150 capacity venue to 550 (Babalou), without planning permission. Being a crypt, this should have been the easiest building in Brixton to sound proof but the muppets installed their bass bins under open ground vents and often left the rear fire doors open all night.​​Fridge Bar had its best years with its main sound system in the basement with small speakers upstairs. I never heard a peep. Why does it cramp their creativity to request that, if they want to install a second beefy sound system at street level, they should sort out sound proofing first?​ 

The council did not take any action to enforce any of these conditions without significant pressure having been brought on them to do so by residents.

None of these are conditions that were brought in to screw the clubs. They are controls without which none of the clubs would have been allowed to operate in a residential area. In most cases they were introduced before the venues began to operate. Most of the venues have proven that they can be operated in a considerate manner and the fact that from time to time they do not is simply down to management choice.

Regarding the stifling of creativity, as much as these places make for a fun night out few are genuinely cauldrons of creativity. The small but excellent Bug Bar and Bah Humbug restaurant together were far more creative than anything Babalou ever managed. But they were bought up by a larger operator who was only interested in the pound signs.


You talk of reality, but the reality is that if you sided with Mass or Babalou, you sided with a golf playing chartered accountant and taxation specialist living in Surrey who drives a Bentley Continental and avoided coming to Brixton as often as possible and who could not give a shit about either Brixton, its residents or creativity. Do you think that Mr Daley, owner of the Fridge Bar as well as of a somewhat bent iron bar, is a patron of creativity and best suited to deciding what goes in Brixton? _That_ is the reality.


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## Rushy (Aug 25, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> I think a lot relates to people parking up, doors open stereo on full blast


 
I think that most people I have spoken to are pretty pragmatic about a certain amount of street noise. A small number of club nights draw a crowd who think nothing of having a party out of a car outside people's homes in the middle of the night, which is simply twattish.

The main complaints I hear about are of bass noise escaping from clubs due to lack of sound proofing or doors being left open or even having sound systems out in the open.


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## fortyplus (Aug 25, 2012)

I have said it before, but I think that an unintended consequence of the smoking ban has been moving a lot of nightlife out of doors. I am sure this is a factor with Dex; it was a rubbish venue when the dancefloor was on the first floor in the bar. Everyone ended up outside smoking or chatting to the smokers and the DJs ended up playing to their girlfriends. I don't smoke tobacco, but even so I often find myself outside with the smokers. Licensing needs to regulate outside smoking areas much more carefully so that (a) speech noise from smokers isn't excessive (not letting drinks outside after say 10pm);  (b) there's enough of an acoustic barrier to keep the noise inside; and (c) try to keep the smoking area quite distinct from the queue/security area. Preferably on the other side of the building.

But enforcement is really the problem. Enforcement needs salaried council officers.... and like everything else in the public sector, they are being cut.


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## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> I suggest you take a trip to any Caribbean capital, especially Kingston, evn 80 year olds don't bat an eye lid to loud music, they go to dances still themselves, the Atlantic was an 'old man's pub' not a club, there is a difference, obiously everybody is different, I find shouting and arguing in the street more offensive than loud music at any time, but usually one follows the other as I said before, when all the complainers have managed to shut down the diversity that attracted themto the area in the first place, people will move towards where they have gone, as they lack creativity and realness yet are attracted by it


,

So a traditional West Indian pub in Brixton is "an old mans pub" and authentic Carribean culture will be found if I visit Kingston.

Did you read my post?As a "complainer" I was complaining about a West Indian pub being turned into a noisy, mainly white club. This was encourage by the Labour Group on the Council thinking they were doing up Brixton. Why do you insist on making noise complaints a race issue?

I resent the implication I am being racist or against diversity if I make a complaint. I would complain whether the club is white or black. When on this thread and the other thread about the bar closed down it had been made clear its not a race issue. For example the Fridge bar has , it appears, lots of complaints.

Oh and by the way Kingston does not represent the whole of the Caribbean. As the people I know who are of Carribbean descent get irritated at the way Jamaica, in particular Kingston, is supposed to represent the whole of Carribean culture.


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## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> that was in response to someone earlier denying the cultural factor which does play a part, take a look around Carnival tomorrow, and Ladboke Grove going from one of the major West Indian immigration areas, to club/party area and dead end stoosh area to what it is now, residents fighting every year to shut the Carnival down, they have already reduced it to a fraction of what it used to be. I do equate it with the real Brixton, especially as it has been suppressed over a few years back and Brixton is nowhere near what it used to be. I am not saying it's all bad, as stated before, people like different things, but the real issues are not adressed just moved towards the outskirts, and obviously the councellors will love that, money talks and they will have less problems with people, cutting services, etc and why exactly should I support that?


 
You are mixing up different things. Central London is increasingly becoming a rich peoples area. This affects both white and black people. This is not about culture its about political decisions like not supporting or building new affordable housing, Councils selling land and assets and this governments vindictive attack on the less well off.

People will be moved to outskirts not because people complain about noise or are prejudiced against "diversity" but because the Government is changing the rules on Housing Benefits and making social housing rents similar to private. Social cleansing.


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## kalibuzz (Aug 25, 2012)

Regarding the stifling of creativity, as much as these places make for a fun night out few are genuinely cauldrons of creativity. The small but excellent Bug Bar and Bah Humbug restaurant together were far more creative than anything Babalou ever managed. But they were bought up by a larger operator who was only interested in the pound signs.


You talk of reality, but the reality is that if you sided with Mass or Babalou, you sided with a golf playing chartered accountant and taxation specialist living in Surrey who drives a Bentley Continental and avoided coming to Brixton as often as possible and who could not give a shit about either Brixton, its residents or creativity. Do you think that Mr Daley, owner of the Fridge Bar as well as of a somewhat bent iron bar, is a patron of creativity and best suited to deciding what goes in Brixton? _That_ is the reality.[/quote]
 I am talking about the people that have been here for a long time and those that moved here because of the creativity such places offer due to its diversity. I am not a defender of any particular club nor its owners, far from it. But I cannot stand this small town mentality of people to grass up everything and everyone, for noise???? To me it's more important whether the counsil complies to what they should be doing and how to safeguard vulnerable people's rights and opinions, there are more important issues to complain about imo


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## kalibuzz (Aug 25, 2012)

most people I know have no problem with that whatsover, now what?? Who's rights are more important? Sometime ago, the majority of people did not mind, now they do, times are changing at the end of the day that is all I am pointing out


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## kalibuzz (Aug 25, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> ,
> 
> So a traditional West Indian pub in Brixton is "an old mans pub" and authentic Carribean culture will be found if I visit Kingston.
> 
> ...


 
The Atlantic was a pub *mainly* frequented by older Caribbean men (and others) that;s  a fact, where do I say that this is not authentic? I said go to* ANY Caribbean capital*, i.e. noise levels, sound systems music etc.as opposed to the countryside. Try Castries or Port of Spain if you prefer, even the smaller islands make A LOT of noise, I can just not imagine anyone complaining, would be utterly pointless.  It is a issue discriminating against a particular type of venue/music, denying it won't make it go away.  Fridge Bar is a black club too?! If you menat the Fridge, I guess complaints could relate to the massive queues outside (+ parking), which are bound to make noise . This discussion has gone way of key,_  have said several time that peopple are different with different sensitivities, but I am pointing out that this is changing towards the highly noise sensitive side shutting up the rest, as it is becoming the majority._


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## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> The Atlantic was a pub *mainly* frequented by older Caribbean men (and others) that;s a fact, where do I say that this is not authentic? I said go to* ANY Caribbean capital*, i.e. noise levels, sound systems music etc.as opposed to the countryside. Try Castries or Port of Spain if you prefer, even the smaller islands make A LOT of noise, I can just not imagine anyone complaining, would be utterly pointless. It is a issue discriminating against a particular type of venue/music, denying it won't make it go away. Fridge Bar is a black club too?! If you menat the Fridge, I guess complaints could relate to the massive queues outside (+ parking), which are bound to make noise . This discussion has gone way of key,_ have said several time that peopple are different with different sensitivities, but I am pointing out that this is changing towards the highly noise sensitive side shutting up the rest, as it is becoming the majority._


 
Wrong again as I have pointed out in previous posts. It is not an issue of discriminating against a particular venue. When you say a particular type of venue which type do you mean? What is being denied?


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## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2012)

To put this in perspective I was reminded of an article I read on the closing of "Public". A club for the upper classes that closed after complaints from local residents which led to its licensed hours being cut. The lower class ruining the diversity of London

from Standard article:

"Its closure — the result of a failed appeal against a council-imposed 12.30am closing time — has shone light on an ugly dispute, with class undertones and accusations of disabled residents abusing public sympathy.
Yesterday Paul Smith, 30, who lives opposite Public in Tetcott Street, told the Standard: “The bottom line is that hard-working people don’t want to hear a bunch of Made in Chelsea types running around with mummy and daddy’s money at night.”
Hours later, one of Public’s joint owners, Howard Spooner, said his hand had been forced by “anti-royals who hate toffs” and claimed: “If someone with a disability complains, it has 10 times the weight of an able-bodied person’s complaint”, a comment prompted by complaints to the council of clubbers refusing to move out of the way of a wheelchair user."


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## fortyplus (Aug 25, 2012)

It is emphatically not a race issue; it may be a youth/age issue.

When we moved into  our house in Brixton, a long time ago, we worked hard moving our stuff over from the house we'd rented in Balham. Lovely people in the street helping us carry furniture - not letting my girlfriend carry anything, even though she was much younger and fitter than most of the men; in an afternoon we knew more of our neighbours than we did after four years in Balham. Knackered we went to bed, only to be woken by a party from the house opposite. At six it was still going strong. I tossed and turned, paranoid that we might have sunk our savings and our future into a house opposite a shebeen,  and wondered how it could not have come up in the search...
Next day we carried on unpacking binbags and sorting out our new home. At ten on Sunday night it started again - and we had work the next day. And then, at ten past ten, it went quiet, and we heard a loud, authoritative and older Jamaican voice saying, "Ya caan't do it two nights.... " A few car doors slammed, and the party was over.  Mum and Dad opposite were away, and their daughters were taking advantage of it. Brixton loves to party, and from time to time no one worries about occasional noisy house parties.
It's when it's every night of the weekend, every weekend of the year that it's wearing.
We were probably the noisiest house on the street after that, we had a good few noisy parties and the occasional letter from the council threatening to confiscate our equipment. 

Everyone is entitled to a good nights' sleep, whatever their race.  Central Brixton is still a residential area.  The advantage of clubs over houses is that they are specialised buildings and they can be built and operated to keep the noise inside. It's expensive and needs firm management because people like to party (and smoke) outside. Dancefloors need air-conditioning. It can, though, be done, and it's the answer. The alternative is to see central Brixton lose its remaining residents, and that would be another change to the character of the area. 

Personally I don't mind a bit of bass, depending on the beat it can be quite soothing.  It's the shouty coked-up hoorays I fucking hate.


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## kalibuzz (Aug 25, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Wrong again as I have pointed out in previous posts. It is not an issue of discriminating against a particular venue. When you say a particular type of venue which type do you mean? What is being denied?


Am tired of going round and round in circles, start reading the South Beach thread to remind you if you care, I'm bored of this discussion , everyone has made their points, I have understood yours and most of the others' , and what is the point in having any discussion if you are the judge to decide who is right and who is wrong, I agree to disagree with you.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 26, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Dunno what that is all about. I like loud music as much as the next person, but I also like places that try to have fairly amicable relations to its neighbourhood. A lot of these places blatantly take the piss. I just find it laughable that you equate bass-heavy music with "the real Brixton", as if big bass is somehow a marker of authenticity. There's white people living here too ya know?


 
But TruXta, isn't it obvious that all reel Brixtonz love bass-heavy music, and that you can't be reel Brixtonz (whatever shade of colour your skin has) if you don't?


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## TruXta (Aug 26, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> But TruXta, isn't it obvious that all reel Brixtonz love bass-heavy music, and that you can't be reel Brixtonz (whatever shade of colour your skin has) if you don't?


 
Fuck you, I luvz me some D'nB maaaaaaan.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 26, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> I think a lot relates to people parking up, doors open stereo on full blast


 
Some, but not a lot *at distance*, because of the acoustic characteristics of an open-doored (or close-doored) car.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 26, 2012)

TruXta said:


> Fuck you, I luvz me some D'nB maaaaaaan.


 
Prefer old-skool dub reggae myself. Some DnB gets a bit too manic for my tastes, since I gave up speeding.


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## Rushy (Aug 26, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> *To me it's more important whether the counsil complies to what they should be doing *and how to safeguard vulnerable people's rights and opinions, there are more important issues to complain about imo


 
You will therefore be pleased to know that by investigating noise nuisance from clubs the council are indeed complying with their statutory *obligation* (i.e. complying with what they should be doing) which is clearly set out in the s79 of the EPA 1990:​​*79*​*Statutory nuisances and inspections therefor.E+W*​​(1) [*F2*Subject to subsections (1A) to (6A) below], the following matters constitute “statutory nuisances” for the purposes of this Part, that is to say—​​(a) any premises in such a state as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance;​(b) smoke emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance;​(c) fumes or gases emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance;​(d) any dust, steam, smell or other effluvia arising on industrial, trade or business premises and being prejudicial to health or a nuisance;​(e) any accumulation or deposit which is prejudicial to health or a nuisance;​(f) any animal kept in such a place or manner as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance;​[*F3*(fa) any insects emanating from relevant industrial, trade or business premises and being prejudicial to health or a nuisance;]​[*F4*(fb) artificial light emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance;]​*(g) **noise emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance;*​[*F5*(ga) noise that is prejudicial to health or a nuisance and is emitted from or caused by a vehicle, machinery or equipment in a street [*F6*or in Scotland, road];]​(h) any other matter declared by any enactment to be a statutory nuisance;​​*and it shall be the duty of every local authority to cause its area to be inspected from time to time to detect any statutory nuisances which ought to be dealt with under section 80 below [F7or sections 80 and 80A below] and, where a complaint of a statutory nuisance is made to it by a person living within its area, to take such steps as are reasonably practicable to investigate the complaint. *​​​


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## TruXta (Aug 26, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Prefer old-skool dub reggae myself. Some DnB gets a bit too manic for my tastes, since I gave up speeding.


 
Oh nothing wrong with some Augustus Pablo or Congos.


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## Gramsci (Aug 26, 2012)

fortyplus said:


> Everyone is entitled to a good nights' sleep, whatever their race. Central Brixton is still a residential area. The advantage of clubs over houses is that they are specialised buildings and they can be built and operated to keep the noise inside. It's expensive and needs firm management because people like to party (and smoke) outside. Dancefloors need air-conditioning. It can, though, be done, and it's the answer. The alternative is to see central Brixton lose its remaining residents, and that would be another change to the character of the area.


 
This is exactly the point. At the moment its not happening. Nor has so for some time. It has not been discussed here much. I spend some of my time ( a lot recently) helping or dealing with noise issues in central Brixton. I and my neighbours live right in centre. I regard it as part of life to complain. It helps to keep noise problems down to liveable level. Its the Council who have the powers to deal with this. Business will not take any notice of the informal approach by local residents.( Its been tried). They will only take any notice of Council.

My attitude is I do not interfere with what others do unless it has an adverse affect on me or my neighbours lives. If someone wants to do drugs and party in a club in Brixton Im not bothered. As far as Im concerned people can live there lives however they want as long as they do not disturb others.


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## Onket (Aug 29, 2012)

editor said:


> this council initiative


 
It's not a council initiative though, is it.


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## editor (Aug 29, 2012)

Onket said:


> It's not a council initiative though, is it.


Sorry, I meant this initiative from _councillors_, including the council leader.


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## Onket (Aug 30, 2012)

It's an initiative from the local residents. But yeah, it's supported by the most odious one.


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## EastEnder (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> Not to belittle the real annoyance of late night loud noise, but I do wonder what percentage of these complaints are from new arrivals who have bought properties previously occupied by the Rushcroft Road squatters.


It's a bit egocentric to move into a noisy area then complain about the noise! On Friday & Saturday nights it's always noisy out the back of my flat, which is exactly what I'd expect for central Brixton, it'd be disingenuous to feign surprise - there are plenty of quieter places if that's what people want, no one's forced to live there. I'm actually quite surprised how quiet it is on the other nights of the week - way better than when I used to live on a main road!


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

There's often a right freaking racket going on all night from the various venues/not-quite-official venues outside my house. But they were here before I moved in, so I figure I've no right to complain.

The fucking annoying and deafening jet wash business that opened up recently is a different story though....


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## Rushy (Aug 30, 2012)

EastEnder said:


> It's a bit egocentric to move into a noisy area then complain about the noise! On Friday & Saturday nights it's always noisy out the back of my flat, which is exactly what I'd expect for central Brixton, it'd be disingenuous to feign surprise - there are plenty of quieter places if that's what people want, no one's forced to live there. I'm actually quite surprised how quiet it is on the other nights of the week - way better than when I used to live on a main road!


 
I don't think think anyone is feigning surprise. If you read the thread, a lot of the complaints have been led by people who have lived in the area longer than most of the clubs have existed. Their complaints are about the proliferation of clubs and a recent tendency to ignore noise controls which were agreed to when the clubs were started. Simply dismissing them as being egocentric and disingenuous and telling them to move is a little ... simple. And selfish.

If you need any reminder of proliferation, prior to 2000 Electric Social was a furniture shop, Mass was a community hall and theatre, Babalou was a veggie restaurant, Plan B was a Wimpy, Dex (Clubhouse) was offices, South Beach was a tent shop, Brixton Bar and Grill was a pizzeria, White Horse was a normal pub.

It is quite possible that there are some residents who would complaint about anything and everything. But saying residents should just accept unnecessary noise is equally unreasonable.


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## Rushy (Aug 30, 2012)

EastEnder said:


> It's a bit egocentric to move into a noisy area then complain about the noise! On Friday & Saturday nights it's always noisy out the back of my flat, which is exactly what I'd expect for central Brixton, it'd be disingenuous to feign surprise - there are plenty of quieter places if that's what people want, no one's forced to live there. I'm actually quite surprised how quiet it is on the other nights of the week - way better than when I used to live on a main road!





Rushy said:


> I don't think think anyone is feigning surprise. If you read the thread, a lot of the complaints have been led by people who have lived in the area longer than most of the clubs have existed. Their complaints are about the proliferation of clubs and a recent tendency to ignore noise controls which were agreed to when the clubs were started. Simply dismissing them as being egocentric and disingenuous and telling them to move is a little ... simple. And selfish.
> 
> If you need any reminder of proliferation, prior to 2000 Electric Social was a furniture shop, Mass was a community hall and theatre, Babalou was a veggie restaurant, Plan B was a Wimpy, Dex (Clubhouse) was offices, South Beach was a tent shop, Brixton Bar and Grill was a pizzeria, White Horse was a normal pub.
> 
> It is quite possible that there are some residents who would complaint about anything and everything. But saying residents should just accept unnecessary noise is equally unreasonable.


 
In fact, I seem to remember looking at the planning file for the conversion of the Electric Social's building from retail to a club (by Fridge Properties) as I was thinking about starting a bar. There was an extremely pragmatic objection by a neighbour (behind) which clearly said that they did not mind the principle of the change of use so long as certain assurances were met, including that no noise be audible from the rear and rear doors would always be closed except in emergency, i.e. go for it but I live here so don't fuck me over. He received assurances, withdrew the objection and ... guess what!


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## Gramsci (Aug 30, 2012)

Yes this is what often happens.


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## Rushy (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> There's often a right freaking racket going on all night from the various venues/not-quite-official venues outside my house. But they were here before I moved in, so I figure I've no right to complain.
> 
> The fucking annoying and deafening jet wash business that opened up recently is a different story though....


 
I respect your approach but don't totally buy into it as a rule. I agree that there should be a certain amount of pragmatism. If you move next to a pub garden you should expect a certain (but not unlimited) amount of related noise. But the extent and nature of disturbance rarely stays consistent. If that pub suddenly extends its hours from 11pm to 3am or changes from a normal pub to a dj pub with sound system, the pub has to take responsibility for managing that change. And to be honest, it is more often the case that residents pre-date any disturbance. Just because people didn't complaint at first does not mean they were not unfairly disturbed. Lots of people don't complain because noise increased gradually so there was no sudden trigger, or they don't know what to do, hope it will go away, can't be arsed, don't feel anyone will listen to them (feel disenfranchised), or are even afraid (as several neighbours have told me). I think Gramsci touched on that re: Dogstar in an earlier post.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

Of course, if there's a massive change in the hours being kept or the volume of the sound systems, residents have a right to complain. But I have little sympathy for people like the new residents who moved in to a new shiny development next to the Duke of Edinburgh and then lobbied to have its famous garden closed early at night.


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## Rushy (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> Of course, if there's a massive change in the hours being kept or the volume of the sound systems, residents have a right to complain. But I have little sympathy for people like the new residents who moved in to a new shiny development next to the Duke of Edinburgh and then lobbied to have its famous garden closed early at night.


Yes - but it wasn't just them. There were also long term ressies in the Victorian houses who have been complaining on and off for years (even before the new fuggly flats appeared on the old electric board site).  I imagine that there is quite a difference between having a beer garden with BBQ and occasional bands to having a massive permanent outdoor cinema sized sports screen and speakers. Personally, I love the DofE garden - but I don't think they should be able to keep expanding their offering at will just because they were there first.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Personally, I love the DofE garden - but I don't think they should be able to keep expanding their offering at will just because they were there first.


Their current offering is the _palest_ shadow of what was there ten years ago before the new flat arrived.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 30, 2012)

As I recall all was fine until speakers were moved out there plus loads more tables but that was much longer ago than ten years ago. Pre-dating the flats, certainly. I think these things usually go with changes of management.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 30, 2012)

...another problem with the DoE is it's such a long garden, there are a lot of neighbours.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ...another problem with the DoE is it's such a long garden, there are a lot of neighbours.


And an awful lt more now. I used to love going to their garden in the summer. It was like a mini festival and a really unique experience to Brixton. And there were speakers out there over ten years ago too.

I've never been back since they started closing the garden early.


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## Rushy (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> And an awful lt more now. I used to love going to their garden in the summer. It was like a mini festival and a really unique experience to Brixton. And there were speakers out there over ten years ago too.
> 
> I've never been back since they started closing the garden early.


 
That's a pity because it hasn't stopped being a lively garden in the day and evening when the sun is out. That said, I was turfed out of the DofE garden at around 2am earlier this year (or was it last? they are all blurring) along with hundreds of other people, though it may have been a one off event. It was great fun but got bloody lairy with people throwing pint glasses. I remember thinking that I would not like to live next door to it.

Yes there were speakers over ten years ago. Accompanied by complaints. The complaints are not new.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Yes there were speakers over ten years ago. Accompanied by complaints. The complaints are not new.


But the early closing garden is.


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## Rushy (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> But the early closing garden is.


In response to years of complaints, no?


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## Gramsci (Aug 30, 2012)

Rushy said:


> I respect your approach but don't totally buy into it as a rule. I agree that there should be a certain amount of pragmatism. If you move next to a pub garden you should expect a certain (but not unlimited) amount of related noise. But the extent and nature of disturbance rarely stays consistent. If that pub suddenly extends its hours from 11pm to 3am or changes from a normal pub to a dj pub with sound system, the pub has to take responsibility for managing that change. And to be honest, it is more often the case that residents pre-date any disturbance. Just because people didn't complaint at first does not mean they were not unfairly disturbed. Lots of people don't complain because noise increased gradually so there was no sudden trigger, or they don't know what to do, hope it will go away, can't be arsed, don't feel anyone will listen to them (feel disenfranchised), or are even afraid (as several neighbours have told me). I think Gramsci touched on that re: Dogstar in an earlier post.


 
It was not Larrys Dogstar but another noise/ disturbance issue that meant neighbours were afraid. But yes trying to deal with problems oneself directly is not now something I would recommend.

Yes residents often do predate disturbance.

Some places do have a history of complaints. There is shop I been trying to deal with that has had complaints over the last year. The Council simply take no action. Or the process to get anything done is so complicated and drawn out according to Council officers. Businesses can appeal or oppose action by Council. A high level of proof is often needed. Which is why its the Council officers who have to witness and record a problem. Which is not easy to get as you know. So yes people give up.

Far from the "complainers" having it all there own way its often difficult to get anything done


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

Rushy said:


> In response to years of complaints, no?


So you keep telling me, but I don't remember hearing about all these 'years of complaints'. There's certainly nothing on these boards I can find from that time.

What I do recall hearing, however, was the complaints all started up with gusto straight after the new residents moved in.


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## Rushy (Aug 30, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> It was not Larrys Dogstar but another noise/ disturbance issue that meant neighbours were afraid. But yes trying to deal with problems oneself directly is not now something I would recommend.


I din't mean to imply that the Dogstar intimidated people - I was just referring more generally to people being disturbed but not doing anything about the problem when it starts. You mentioned that:



> Suddenly the Atlantic changed to Dogstar. From being a pub on ground floor the license was extended to 2 upper floors. Also late hours were applied for and got. Then the new owner put in sound systems in ground floor and first floor.
> 
> There was noise problems straight away. Should have opposed it at beginning but did not realise it would be a problem.


 
and I thought it was a good reflection of the problem.


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## Ms T (Aug 30, 2012)

We looked at a house which backed onto the DoE garden years ago and ruled it out immediately on noise grou
nds. It was obviously going to be more noisy than we wanted and the price of the house reflected that.

Otoh, I used to live opposite the Effra and the noise gradually increased to a level where I felt justified in complaining, by having a word with the landlady about keeping the doors closed on music nights.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

Ms T said:


> Otoh, I used to live opposite the Effra and the noise gradually increased to a level where I felt justified in complaining, by having a word with the landlady about keeping the doors closed on music nights.


Which is an entirely reasonable request.

The Albert introduced a mini-'foyer' by the entrance to help keep the noise down.


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## Rushy (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> Which is an entirely reasonable request.
> 
> The Albert introduced a mini-'foyer' by the entrance to help keep the noise down.


 
A mini foyer at The Fridge Bar would probably go a long way to sorting out their noise escape problem. Or keeping the doors shut and music indoors. The problem is that when venues won't do these things voluntarily the only option open to residents is a licence review. For a review to be successful residents need to paint the venue in as poor light as they can evidence.

As you said, they are not unreasonable things to request of a night time music venue.


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## Gramsci (Aug 30, 2012)

Rushy said:


> I din't mean to imply that the Dogstar intimidated people - I was just referring more generally to people being disturbed but not doing anything about the problem when it starts. You mentioned that:
> 
> and I thought it was a good reflection of the problem.


 
I now think there should be no more change of use to A3( bars, restaurents, clubs in central Brixton area. Also no further extensions of entertainment licensing to upper floors of buildings. There is more than enough places with A3 category now. Also a lot of the covered market units in Brixton Village have been getting drinks/ entertainment license. Which I do not think is necessarily good for keeping the retail / shopping centre of Brixton alive.

Brixton Society take different view and think its better to have A3 in central Brixton and allow the pubs outside central area to be converted to flats if the owners want that.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 30, 2012)

Ms T said:


> We looked at a house which backed onto the DoE garden years ago and ruled it out immediately on noise grou
> nds. It was obviously going to be more noisy than we wanted and the price of the house reflected that.


 
I think I looked at that house too. Fucking estate agents didn't even mention it as if I wasn't gonna notice.....idiots.


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## kalibuzz (Aug 30, 2012)

.


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## kalibuzz (Aug 30, 2012)

Rushy said:


> If you need any reminder of proliferation, prior to 2000 Electric Social was a furniture shop, Mass was a community hall and theatre, Babalou was a veggie restaurant, Plan B was a Wimpy, Dex (Clubhouse) was offices, South Beach was a tent shop, Brixton Bar and Grill was a pizzeria, White Horse was a normal pub.
> 
> 
> If you need any reminder of proliferation, prior to 2000 Electric Social was a furniture shop, Mass was a community hall and theatre, Babalou was a veggie restaurant, Plan B was a Wimpy, Dex (Clubhouse) was offices, South Beach was a tent shop, Brixton Bar and Grill was a pizzeria, White Horse was a normal pub.
> ...



Maybe you need a reminder, Mass was a club, including loud thumping reggae nights in the 90s I think electric social was a pool / snooker hall, but might be mistaken, Babalou was still a restaurant now, but part of it was the Bug Bar, with LOADS of club nights, parked cars, the lot, there was another bar next door upstairs, can't remember the name, techno I think, quite crap, Brixton Bar & Grill was Taco Joes, one of the first late night dens, and there were a lot more bars and clubs than now that have turned into offices, flats, employment offices and so forth (which should equal out the tent shop, dex etc) such as Green MAn, Mingles, The Junction, CoolTan, Bradys /Railway pub, and a few more that I can't remember due to intoxication
kalibuzz, 12 minutes agoEditReport
#90


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 30, 2012)

ah, taco joes.......there`s a blast from the past......


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 30, 2012)

I used to get proper fucked up in there......ha ha....oh my.....


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## kalibuzz (Aug 30, 2012)

mad place.. what about the Arches in Valentia PLace, Brixton was still able to have venues for proper raves, there and in Vauxhall, all long gone, there were no neighbours around lol


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## kalibuzz (Aug 30, 2012)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I used to get proper fucked up in there......ha ha....oh my.....


I don't think you were the only one... by far... I must say, there were some good parties, there, Cooltan and the Arches, mainly House, bit of Garage, and I wasn't even really into that then, but always had a lot of fun


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 30, 2012)

They felt like nosier times, and a bit mental. Messy madness. The drugs helped with the music.


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## kalibuzz (Aug 30, 2012)

Nanker Phelge said:


> They felt like nosier times, and a bit mental. Messy madness. The drugs helped with the music.


definitely noisier times, raves like that are not around Brixton anymore, more East of town and suburbs


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## CH1 (Sep 1, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> Maybe you need a reminder, Mass was a club, including loud thumping reggae nights in the 90s, but part of it was the Bug Bar,


I just wanted to stick my oar in here:
The Bug Bar had "fetish" nights advertised with gas masks etc.  In fact the Mass/Bug Bar situation is a terrible warning to the CoE of what happens when you break ALL planning rules (with the best of intentions maybe) and then lose control of your church to Mamon. The goings on in the late 1990s were almost an invitation to a fundamentalist Christian group to claim that St Matthews had been taken over by Satanic forces.  I am sure the only thing that prevented them was that they (the fundies) were all safely tucked up in bed before Mass etc got going at night! 

Also did anyone mention the Fridge Bar - which was May and Philpot Estate Agents (by whose agency I bought my humble abode in 1985). Not sure of the nuisance value of the Fridge Bar, but there seem to have been perennial complaints about both poor practice from bouncers and dodgy customers.


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## CH1 (Sep 1, 2012)

editor said:


> View attachment 22391I thought it was worth bringing this council initiative to a wider audience
> I'd hardly call Market House a 'new' venue given that there's been a late bar there for over ten years (save its 'fish market' months).


 
Regarding the Labour Action Team letter - it is disingenuous in the extreme IMHO. The 4 named venues are simply rebranding of then existing premises. I have nothing against monitoring noise levels - but the council could have monitored the noise levels years ago.
Additionally the Market and Electric Social aren't even in Town Hall ward AFAIK. Can't they pick on their own noisy venues? - in particular at a recent meeting of the Police Consultative group Arlington Lodge residents were complaining about a venue in their parade of shops which was a restaurant having late night parties with no noise insulation - NOT the Fridge Bar, or whatever it now calls itself.
Gramsci is quite right that Labour promoted this 24 hour economy model for Brixton - it was the peculiar brain child of former Cllr Peter O'Connell who for many years in the 1990s was Labour Party whip - and also sat on Town Planning Committee so had every reason to be aware of local residents objections.


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## CH1 (Sep 1, 2012)

Ol Nick said:


> I blame the invention of the transistor and people's bad character.


re the first part of the sentence - the best loud noise is produced by VALVES - always has been always will be! There are technical reasons - valves are linear devices and when driven push-pull they are can be precisely balanced, thus eliminating cross-over distortion.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Sep 4, 2012)

CH1 said:


> re the first part of the sentence - the best loud noise is produced by VALVES - always has been always will be! There are technical reasons - valves are linear devices and when driven push-pull they are can be precisely balanced, thus eliminating cross-over distortion.


I think this was referring to the proliferation of amplifying devices coupled with large drop in prices and increasingly loud outputs.


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## CH1 (Sep 4, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> I think this was referring to the proliferation of amplifying devices coupled with large drop in prices and increasingly loud outputs.


I know what you mean - but I cannot resist an anorak moment - like Ed can't resist the steam trains!


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## pesh (Sep 4, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> mad place.. what about the Arches in Valentia PLace, Brixton was still able to have venues for proper raves


really miss those parties...


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## Rushy (Sep 10, 2012)

Notice of a Licence Review for Brixton Clubhouse has been posted on a lamp post outside the Prince.
Grounds: Prevention of Public Nuisance.
Comments and complaints are invited by Lambeth Licensing before 25 September.

Not sure who instigated this - not the people on Brixton Hill as they were not aware of the review. May have been as a result of the walkabout by the councillors.

ETA: instigated by Noise Control. Abatement Notice served wrt DJs on roof terrace in April. Abatement notice breached in July and club fined. Breached again in August.

Review notice here. Requires sound limiters on all amplified sound.


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## CH1 (Sep 10, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Notice of a Licence Review for Brixton Clubhouse has been posted on a lamp post outside the Prince.
> Grounds: Prevention of Public Nuisance.
> Comments and complaints are invited by Lambeth Licensing before 25 September.
> 
> Not sure who instigated this - not the people on Brixton Hill as they were not aware of the review. May have been as a result of the walkabout by the councillors.


IS it a nuisance?  I imagine it might be a nuisance to the proposed hotel in the upper part of Woolworths - but that is some time in the future.


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## Rushy (Sep 10, 2012)

CH1 said:


> IS it a nuisance? I imagine it might be a nuisance to the proposed hotel in the upper part of Woolworths - but that is some time in the future.


 
The first two visits by noise control were after complaints. Were these complaints justified? Nipsla's post #2 seems to suggest that the complaints are not without reason:



> The one I'm surprised not to see on that list is Brixton Club house. Now that is noisy. To the point that with double-glazing and all windows shut you can still hear exactly what song they're playing. Sometimes, when they've got a roof party on, you can hear it across all the streets in central brixton as if you were in there. Whilst I just find it a bit irritating, I know people, particularly those who have bedrooms at the front of their places are very pissed off about it. And mostly those are people who've lived there 10 years plus. If my bedroom wasn't at the back of my place, I'd be a lot more pissed off.


 ​


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## colacubes (Sep 10, 2012)

CH1 said:


> IS it a nuisance? I imagine it might be a nuisance to the proposed hotel in the upper part of Woolworths - but that is some time in the future.





Rushy said:


> The first two visits by noise control were after complaints. Were these complaints justified? Nipsla's post #2 seems to suggest that the complaints are not without reason:
> 
> 
> ​​​


 
Yes. it is.  We can't open our windows in the height of summer cos it's so loud.  It effects other worse than us as only our living room is affected.  Several of our neighbours have their bedrooms facing it and can't sleep at the weekends because of it.  Tbh if it was just Fri/Sat it wouldn't be so bad, but often it's Sundays and Mondays as well, which is a problem when you have to be up for work.

Anyway, cheers for the heads up Rushy


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## Gramsci (Sep 11, 2012)

CH1 said:


> IS it a nuisance? I imagine it might be a nuisance to the proposed hotel in the upper part of Woolworths - but that is some time in the future.


 
I live the other side of central Brixton. When Im on the roof in summer I can clearly hear it. I at first wondered where it was coming from. Then realised it must be the roof of the pub. 

I think I might put a comment in. Does not effect me as much as Nipsla but I think it crap the way they are behaving. 

Despite what some posters hear think its quite something for Noise people to actually serve a Noise Abatement Notice and also fine them. This is unusual. The Noise Control are loath to issue abatement notices unless they really have to.


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## Gramsci (Sep 11, 2012)

Rushy said:


> Notice of a Licence Review for Brixton Clubhouse has been posted on a lamp post outside the Prince.
> Grounds: Prevention of Public Nuisance.
> Comments and complaints are invited by Lambeth Licensing before 25 September.
> 
> ...


 
I heard on the local grapevine that there had been complaints about this for a while from local residents. Was told about AN last week. This has been going on for a while.

There is often a queue of people outside on Sundays to go up on roof in the day as well. It must be profitable enough for them to ignore Noise Control and pay fines.

I would guess the club are up for contesting this. These business people who run clubs ( for that is what it is a profit making capitalist business) can get clever and hire the best to argue there case. If they do the Council are not that good at it themselves.


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## Gramsci (Sep 11, 2012)

nipsla said:


> Yes. it is. We can't open our windows in the height of summer cos it's so loud. It effects other worse than us as only our living room is affected. Several of our neighbours have their bedrooms facing it and can't sleep at the weekends because of it. Tbh if it was just Fri/Sat it wouldn't be so bad, but often it's Sundays and Mondays as well, which is a problem when you have to be up for work.
> 
> Anyway, cheers for the heads up Rushy


 
Have u read the doc Rushy linked up?All the Noise Control are asking for is a noise limiter. They are not asking for the roof terrace not to be used.

Doc says the Officers did this "pro actively" not in response to specific complaint.

If it causing your neighbours problems they really need to write in. If there are not complaints from residents the club owner will argue its not a problem.

Im sure I looked up the planning for the site a while back and there is some conditions on use of roof terrace. Noise Control are separate from planning and would not always now about this.


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## Gramsci (Sep 11, 2012)

The planning decision notice for Coach and Horses use of upper floors here (click on top document).

It says that the terraces are for use of the private members club only. That the upper floors are for private members club. So if not used as that new planning permission required. Someone told me they have been trying to get around this by still calling it private club even though its not really.

Also states that windows and doors on upper floors need to be kept shut.

Does not specifically say that the roof should not be used a club. I suppose they did not think that they would do that. This might be a problem.

Clearly the business owners are not adhering to the spirit of the planning application. But they might be able to get around some of it as the decision notice does not specifically forbid use of roof terrace for this purpose. And they are running a business so do not give a monkeys about residents nearby.

Indirectly it does as it states that doors and windows should be kept shut whilst in use.

Planning application history shows that no new applications made to further change the use of upper floors.


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## Rushy (Sep 11, 2012)

The conditions are irrelevant because it was never granted A4 use. Planning needs to enforce the sui generis private members use or legalose A4 with new conditions.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 11, 2012)

CH1 said:


> IS it a nuisance? I imagine it might be a nuisance to the proposed hotel in the upper part of Woolworths - but that is some time in the future.


You can hear it over a very wide area. I think they've been pushing their luck for a very long time.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 11, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> The planning decision notice for Coach and Horses use of upper floors here (click on top document).


That link doesn't work as it specifically relates to your session.

You mean what is now the Market House? I was talking to a woman at the bus stop the other night who lives nearby and she is really pissed off they're up and running again.


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## Gramsci (Sep 12, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> That link doesn't work as it specifically relates to your session.
> 
> You mean what is now the Market House? I was talking to a woman at the bus stop the other night who lives nearby and she is really pissed off they're up and running again.


 

 Market House is the old Living Bar? I was talking about the upstairs of the Prince of Wales on the roof terrace.

Is the new Market House causing problems?


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 12, 2012)

Yes, the old Living Bar. Problems a-plenty noise-wise according to Disgruntled Woman At Bus Stop. We were at the P5 waiting for a bus going in the Loughborough Junction direction. I think she lives above the Satay Bar, but not sure, maybe Rushcroft Road, she just waved her arm in that direction when she said "I live over there." 
It's been pretty much unused at night for ages but seems to be undergoing a resurgence. I know that residents on Rushcroft Road had terrible problems with it during its Living Bar incarnation. Huge noisy air-con units put in, empty bottles (_*loads*_ of them...nothing on tap there) going into wheelie bins at 3am, loud music, rowdy punters.


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## Rushy (Sep 12, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Yes, the old Living Bar. Problems a-plenty noise-wise according to Disgruntled Woman At Bus Stop. We were at the P5 waiting for a bus going in the Loughborough Junction direction. I think she lives above the Satay Bar, but not sure, maybe Rushcroft Road, she just waved her arm in that direction when she said "I live over there."
> It's been pretty much unused at night for ages but seems to be undergoing a resurgence. I know that residents on Rushcroft Road had terrible problems with it during its Living Bar incarnation. Huge noisy air-con units put in, empty bottles (_*loads*_ of them...nothing on tap there) going into wheelie bins at 3am, loud music, rowdy punters.


 
The old Bug Bar had a condition on its licence preventing them putting bottles out after 10 or 11pm. Wouldn't hurt for licensing to be a little more consistent.


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## Gramsci (Sep 13, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Yes, the old Living Bar. Problems a-plenty noise-wise according to Disgruntled Woman At Bus Stop. We were at the P5 waiting for a bus going in the Loughborough Junction direction. I think she lives above the Satay Bar, but not sure, maybe Rushcroft Road, she just waved her arm in that direction when she said "I live over there."
> It's been pretty much unused at night for ages but seems to be undergoing a resurgence. I know that residents on Rushcroft Road had terrible problems with it during its Living Bar incarnation. Huge noisy air-con units put in, empty bottles (_*loads*_ of them...nothing on tap there) going into wheelie bins at 3am, loud music, rowdy punters.


 

Living Bar was part of Dogstars Larry entertainment empire ( which also included Mass at StMatthews).

He regarded residents with thinly disguised contempt. As he saw himself as a thrusting entrepreneur revitalising Brixton. At one point a favourite businessman of the Labour group. They changed there tune on that later on . Realising it was a mistake. New Labour were a bit naive when it came to business people.

He also did a lot of damage to the building by ripping out the original windows.


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## Gramsci (Sep 13, 2012)

I was at the planning committee meeting last night to support the residents opposing the plans for the old Harmony/ Mingles bar. 

The applicant ( owns Dogstar among other properties) wanted to build flats above building and retain A3 and A4 use downstairs. 

The residents did not want any A3/ A4 use on the site due to the years of problems with the premises.

They were supported by Ward Cllrs. 

In the end the application was turned down by committee as it was considered to be of poor design and not appropriate in scale for the existing surrounding buildings. 

As the site had been historically used as a pub the officers said it should remain as A3/A4 use as there is protection of pubs in UDP. The officers with agreement of applicant offered to put a condition into application to limit hours of use. So there would be no late night use.


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## Rushy (Sep 13, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I was at the planning committee meeting last night to support the residents opposing the plans for the old Harmony/ Mingles bar.
> 
> The applicant ( owns Dogstar among other properties) wanted to build flats above building and retain A3 and A4 use downstairs.
> 
> ...



That's really positive I think. Planning should be able to differentiate between a pub and a late night night pub club.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 13, 2012)

kalibuzz said:


> mad place.. what about the Arches in Valentia PLace, Brixton was still able to have venues for proper raves, there and in Vauxhall, all long gone, there were no neighbours around lol


The sound from Valentia Place was audible and there were neighbours around. Had similar problems in arches around my old place too. I used to work every weekend and had many a zombie-day from lack of sleep because of excessive noise from parties and raves.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Sep 25, 2012)

Probably not applicable to the venues in this case but I just found out about the Live Music Act 2012 which passed in March and comes into effect in October:
a great move for smaller venues who don't do late events.

(maybe I've posted this in completely the wrong place?)


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## Rushy (Jan 23, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Notice of a Licence Review for Brixton Clubhouse has been posted on a lamp post outside the Prince.
> Grounds: Prevention of Public Nuisance.
> Comments and complaints are invited by Lambeth Licensing before 25 September.
> 
> ...


 
Apparently the review hearing regarding the addition of sound limiter conditions to the licence for Prince & Dex is tomorrow (Thursday 24th) at the Town Hall at 7pm - probably room 8, I'm told. Anyone is invited to provide documentary or verbal evidence to the committee up to half an hour before and to attend the meeting.

The licensing officer is Pamela Riley 020 7926 6164 priley@lambeth.gov.uk
I can't seem to access the original review document online and don't have any more details than that.


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## Curly German (Jan 24, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I can't seem to access the original review document online and don't have any more details than that.


 
Here:
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/s52673/01b Prince and Dex Application_Prem282.pdf

Details of tonight's meeting here:
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/moderngov/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=116&MId=8180


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## Frumious B. (Jun 20, 2013)

The Lambeth/Brixton Clubhouse has a licence review tonight, according to http://www.brixtonblog.com/licens-r...lubhouse-and-prince-pub-now-the-lambeth/13429

eta: Are the licensees new, or the did they run the Clubhouse/Dex before? I suppose the docs on the council site might explain but ICBA to read them.


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## colacubes (Jun 20, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> The Lambeth/Brixton Clubhouse has a licence review tonight, according to http://www.brixtonblog.com/licens-r...lubhouse-and-prince-pub-now-the-lambeth/13429
> 
> eta: Are the licensees new, or the did they run the Clubhouse/Dex before? I suppose the docs on the council site might explain but ICBA to read them.



It was last night and it was deferred again.


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## Frumious B. (Jun 20, 2013)

Thanks. Got any more details?


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## Gramsci (Jun 20, 2013)

colacubes said:


> It was last night and it was deferred again.


 
On a similar note the Dogstar had its roof terrace turned down by planning. They are appealing.


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## colacubes (Jun 20, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Thanks. Got any more details?


 
Nope - that was just what I gathered from twitter.  Minutes have to be up on the council website within a week so will soon become clear.



Gramsci said:


> On a similar note the Dogstar had its roof terrace turned down by planning. They are appealing.


 
Yeah, I saw that.  They're going to the Planning Inspectorate.


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## Mr Retro (Jun 22, 2013)

editor said:


> Of course, if there's a massive change in the hours being kept or the volume of the sound systems, residents have a right to complain. But I have little sympathy for people like the new residents who moved in to a new shiny development next to the Duke of Edinburgh and then lobbied to have its famous garden closed early at night.


It's a senseless argument to say somebody has no right to complain because their house is newer than an existing noise nuisance. None of the people who used to enjoy a "mini festival" at the Duke are regulars by the way. They just pitch up a few times a year when the weather is good. Shame on the people who live there for not putting up with a festival in their back yard.


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## editor (Jun 22, 2013)

Mr Retro said:


> None of the people who used to enjoy a "mini festival" at the Duke are regulars by the way.


I didn't realise you'd conducted surveys on those who went.


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## Mr Retro (Jun 22, 2013)

editor said:


> I didn't realise you'd conducted surveys on those who went.


Do you think those attending the mini festivals in the garden are all regulars then? I lived right across the road and i can tell you they are not. You certainly wouldn't know, given you don't go there any more.


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## editor (Jun 22, 2013)

Mr Retro said:


> Do you think those attending the mini festivals in the garden are all regulars then?


I didn't say that, but you claimed that NONE were regulars which is patently absurd. I used to go a fair bit back in the day too.


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## Mr Retro (Jun 22, 2013)

You are avoiding my point by picking me up on something minor. 

You won't answer this but i will try: Do you think the people who live in the area should have no right to complain about a mini festival in what is in effect their back garden? Even if they were all regulars?


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## Rushy (Jun 25, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> On a similar note the Dogstar had its roof terrace turned down by planning. They are appealing.


 
I believe The Brixton Electric (old Fridge) is being asked to submit a retrospective planning application for their roof terrace too.


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## editor (Jun 25, 2013)

Mr Retro said:


> You won't answer this but i will try: Do you think the people who live in the area should have no right to complain about a mini festival in what is in effect their back garden? Even if they were all regulars?


I think people who move into an area with a long established night economy have no right to then immediately start demanding that the aforementioned night economy be closed down because they don't like it. If you don't like living by late night bars and clubs, then I would suggest that moving into a posh flat in a street that is famous for its late bars and clubs is not a particularly good idea.

However, a resident has every right to start complaining if new, noisy late night venues open up after they've moved in, or local bars turn up the volume to an unreasonable level or extend their opening hours without consultation.


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## Gramsci (Jun 26, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I believe The Brixton Electric (old Fridge) is being asked to submit a retrospective planning application for their roof terrace too.


 
It looks like they all see Prince of Wales ,or whatever its called now, roof terrace as a great success. Dogstar mentioned it in there application.

A potential moneyspinner for clubs . Nightmare for residents.

If Dogstar got there application turned down by officers I wonder why Brixton Electric are only told to put in retrospective application?


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## Rushy (Jun 26, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> It looks like they all see Prince of Wales ,or whatever its called now, roof terrace as a great success. Dogstar mentioned it in there application.
> 
> A potential moneyspinner for clubs . Nightmare for residents.
> 
> If Dogstar got there application turned down by officers I wonder why Brixton Electric are only told to put in retrospective application?


 
Because they have already built it. Standard procedure is to invite an application to regularise it and then if that fails begin enforcement. They can drag it out though.


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## Frumious B. (Jul 8, 2013)

Blacker Dread says he's had a visit from the council because a resident, of Rushcroft Road he thinks, complained about noise from his shop. He also says one of the takeaways on that stretch of CHL has had a similar visit because of a complaint about noisy customers. It seems that these new residents take their complaints straight to the council, they don't have a word with the subject of the complaint first.


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## editor (Jul 9, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Blacker Dread says he's had a visit from the council because a resident, of Rushcroft Road he thinks, complained about noise from his shop. He also says one of the takeaways on that stretch of CHL has had a similar visit because of a complaint about noisy customers. It seems that these new residents take their complaints straight to the council, they don't have a word with the subject of the complaint first.


That's pretty much what I'd expect. And it fucks me off.


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## Brixton Hatter (Jul 9, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Blacker Dread says he's had a visit from the council because a resident, of Rushcroft Road he thinks, complained about noise from his shop. He also says one of the takeaways on that stretch of CHL has had a similar visit because of a complaint about noisy customers. It seems that these new residents take their complaints straight to the council, they don't have a word with the subject of the complaint first.


The Albert has had complaints too. From the new Clifton Mansions residents I guess. (I wonder if the Market House has also had complaints?) Perhaps paying £2300 a month in rent makes people think they have the right to harrass long-standing businesses with existing licences, without considering that they chose to live in central Brixton, on one of the areas busiest roads.


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## pissflaps (Jul 9, 2013)

it's a dick move, but people have a right to complain.


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## Peanut Monkey (Jul 9, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> it's a dick move, but people have a right to complain.


 
Surely that right to complain is negated if you move somewhere that already has an established and well-known nightlife/noise level?


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## Frumious B. (Jul 9, 2013)

It's like moving to Piccadilly Circus and complaining about the traffic.


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## editor (Jul 9, 2013)

Or moving in under a well documented flightpath and complaining about the planes.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Blacker Dread says he's had a visit from the council because a resident, of Rushcroft Road he thinks, complained about noise from his shop. He also says one of the takeaways on that stretch of CHL has had a similar visit because of a complaint about noisy customers. It seems that these new residents take their complaints straight to the council, they don't have a word with the subject of the complaint first.


 
Possibly needlessly-worried about getting a lamping from the "edgy, "vibrant" locals.


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## Peanut Monkey (Jul 9, 2013)

This makes me really angry. You can't move somewhere and then try to shape the environment to your liking, you shape yourself to your environment. What sort of a bellend would move into Clifton Mansions if they couldn't hack a bit of noise?


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## Frumious B. (Jul 9, 2013)

That bit of Coldharbour Lane must be one of the loudest spots in the entire world for police and ambulance sirens. What kind of idiot moves there for peace and quiet?  The fuckers should just buy double glazing and air conditioning. They can afford it.


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## Badgers (Jul 9, 2013)

It is a nonsense isn't it.


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## Frumious B. (Jul 9, 2013)

What are we going to do?


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## Brixton Hatter (Jul 9, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> What are we going to do?


I was thinking of writing a letter to every flat in that block with a little gentle advice....


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## Frumious B. (Jul 9, 2013)

I had the same idea! Blacker Dread wants to be a signatory.


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## Rushy (Jul 19, 2013)

Roof terrace application now in for Electric Brixton.

http://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/onli...ils.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=MOR2X2BO67000

As roof terraces go it is in a good spot but I think it needs conditions and data to back up some of their claims about sound baffling, usage and ongoing management.


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## colacubes (Jul 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Roof terrace application now in for Electric Brixton.
> 
> http://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/onli...ils.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=MOR2X2BO67000
> 
> As roof terraces go it is in a good spot but I think it needs conditions and data to back up some of their claims about sound baffling, usage and ongoing management.


 

The Dogstar recently had their application turned down so I imagine the same thing might happen here given location.


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## Gramsci (Jul 22, 2013)

colacubes said:


> The Dogstar recently had their application turned down so I imagine the same thing might happen here given location.


 
They have put in an appeal.


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## Gramsci (Jul 22, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Roof terrace application now in for Electric Brixton.
> 
> http://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/onli...ils.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=MOR2X2BO67000
> 
> As roof terraces go it is in a good spot but I think it needs conditions and data to back up some of their claims about sound baffling, usage and ongoing management.


 
They seem to be saying its just for use as a smoking area? Does not make it clear in application what the actual use the club owners want for the terrace.

It does say that there will be no amplified music or drinks sold. But I assume that would not stop people taking drinks out.

Does not say anything about hours of opening for the terrace. I would have thought that could be put in as a condition.


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## Rushy (Jul 22, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> They seem to be saying its just for use as a smoking area? Does not make it clear in application what the actual use the club owners want for the terrace.
> 
> It does say that there will be no amplified music or drinks sold. But I assume that would not stop people taking drinks out.
> 
> Does not say anything about hours of opening for the terrace. I would have thought that could be put in as a condition.


 
Absolutely. Where beer is served is an irrelevance - it is noisy drinkers that cause the problem. And having a door open to the terrace can be as good as having amplification outside if the sound proofing design is not adequate.

It does seem a good place for a smoking terrace but the problem is that the venues use this as an excuse to push through an outdoor extension of the club. The planning department seem to prefer to take a "naive" acceptance of the smoking necessity and but fail to condition the area to prevent it becoming an all night extension of the bar.


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## Kanda (Jul 22, 2013)

Deleted, wrong venue.. doh!


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## editor (Jul 22, 2013)

Most of the stretch of Coldharbour Lane outside my block is an open air smoking area for drinkers of the various establishments therein. They're noisy as fuck, but I'm not bothered by them.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Jul 24, 2013)

editor said:


> Most of the stretch of Coldharbour Lane outside my block is an open air smoking area for drinkers of the various establishments therein. They're noisy as fuck, but I'm not bothered by them.


 

That's cool but the Barrier Block was designed to block out noise from a motorway in the sky.


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## editor (Jul 24, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> That's cool but the Barrier Block was designed to block out noise from a motorway in the sky.


Indeed it was. But it turns out it's not very good at blocking out the noise from _street level_ at all, as witnessed by the right royal racket the car wash makes (it's so loud at times I have to keep my windows closed in the day time, which is VERY annoying in this heat).


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## Dexter Deadwood (Jul 24, 2013)

> But it turns out it's not very good at blocking out the noise from _street level_ at all


 
Perhaps that was deliberate design? Clever if so but i doubt it. Urban can hear everything! Would also like to see the car wash go and extend the green along that busy stretch of road.


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## Rushy (Aug 13, 2013)

Just reading the the application to retain the terrace at Electric Brixton. The Electric's own statement in favour says that the new terrace will ensure the continued existence of the club because it provides an alternative place for people to smoke and by moving the smoking area from the pavement it "creates a safer environment, _reducing the fear of antisocial behaviour by keeping the venue users away from the public realm_". Not sure whether the implication is that it is the venue users or the public realm which is to be considered antisocial!

They also say: , "[the terrace] location and hours-of-use, in no way harms the residential amenity. _When compared to the previous location __(on the street) it goes a long way to protecting the character of the area and the residential amenity."_

This reads surprisingly like the club is claiming that the new terrace is good for the neighbourhood because smoking areas out front were an unsafe environment, damaging to the character of the area and a nuisance to residents. It's a bit careless if you ask me. Particularly since, if the retrospective application is turned down, the street is the only outside space available to them.


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## Rushy (Sep 3, 2013)

It's a day of planning refusals today:



> Site:
> 
> 1 Town Hall Parade Brixton Hill London SW2 1RJ
> 
> ...


​


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## Chilavert (Sep 3, 2013)

Has someone done something to the planning department's water supply?


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## Rushy (Sep 3, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> Has someone done something to the planning department's water supply?


I think this one is a response to not seeking permission in the first place and then doing something makeshift. The comments suggest it might be accepted with a better design and conditions governing use. In the meantime the venue will have to go back to damaging the character of the local area and increasing the fear of antisocial behaviour in the street (the Electric's planning consultant's own words ).


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 3, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Just reading the the application to retain the terrace at Electric Brixton. The Electric's own statement in favour says that the new terrace will ensure the continued existence of the club because it provides an alternative place for people to smoke and by moving the smoking area from the pavement it "creates a safer environment, _reducing the fear of antisocial behaviour by keeping the venue users away from the public realm_". Not sure whether the implication is that it is the venue users or the public realm which is to be considered antisocial!
> 
> They also say: , "[the terrace] location and hours-of-use, in no way harms the residential amenity. _When compared to the previous location (on the street) it goes a long way to protecting the character of the area and the residential amenity."_
> 
> This reads surprisingly like the club is claiming that the new terrace is good for the neighbourhood because smoking areas out front were an unsafe environment, damaging to the character of the area and a nuisance to residents. It's a bit careless if you ask me. Particularly since, if the retrospective application is turned down, the street is the only outside space available to them.


I was at the Electric the other week. The "smoking terrace" is actually tiny and surrounded by walls on all sides at second floor level. (I'm not sure how close it is to residential properties.)  It was open all night (until 6am and beyond.) It could do with a roof/some cover actually - cos it was pissing down with rain and we got soaked. Presumably the roof would keep a lot of the noise in....if noise is a problem, that is.


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## Manter (Sep 3, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I was at the Electric recently. The "smoking terrace" is actually tiny and surrounded by walls on all sides at second floor level. (I'm not sure how close it is to residential properties.)  It was open all night (until 6am and beyond.) It could do with a roof/some cover actually - cos it was pissing down with rain and we got soaked. Presumably the roof would keep a lot of the noise in....if noise is a problem, that is.


but if it had a roof you wouldn't be allowed to smoke.  Because you smokers are meant to *suffer* for your sins


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 3, 2013)

Manter said:


> but if it had a roof you wouldn't be allowed to smoke.


There's a formula in law iirc which states the maximum area of the roof allowed compared to the area of the walls (or similar - I think it's 50%) - which nearly every smoking area I've even been in seems to ignore!


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## Manter (Sep 3, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> There's a formula in law iirc which states the maximum area of the roof allowed compared to the area of the walls (or similar - I think it's 50%) - which nearly every smoking area I've even been in seems to ignore!


I guess that explains those 'bus stops' you see outside office blocks...


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## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

This is encouraging: 



> A Camden nightclub has won its court battle to prevent the pub next to it from being turned into flats.
> 
> Koko, at 1A Camden High Street, appealed to the High Court after plans to turn the Hope and Anchor pub into eight flats were approved.
> 
> ...



Camden nightclub Koko wins court battle over neighbouring flats plan


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## Ol Nick (Sep 10, 2015)

editor said:


> This is encouraging:
> Camden nightclub Koko wins court battle over neighbouring flats plan


That is good, but the fairest and most reasonable approach would be the  Agent of Change rule. I live near a pub. It gets noisy, and then it quietens down, which is norma;. I don't think the pub should become a late night music and outdoor party venue, but nor do should anyone move nearby and complain that on Friday nights some people start shouting and laughing too loud (you know who you are, you annoying people). It seems so obvious and fair. Why can't we have that rule tomorrow? Hmm? Corbin?


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## Twattor (Sep 10, 2015)

Ol Nick said:


> That is good, but the fairest and most reasonable approach would be the  Agent of Change rule. I live near a pub. It gets noisy, and then it quietens down, which is norma;. I don't think the pub should become a late night music and outdoor party venue, but nor do should anyone move nearby and complain that on Friday nights some people start shouting and laughing too loud (you know who you are, you annoying people). It seems so obvious and fair. Why can't we have that rule tomorrow? Hmm? Corbin?



Agreed.  This country has long been crying out for a "common sense" rule whereby incomers have to put up with the existing.  It exists with new-builds near major infrastructure projects (airports, railways and the like); planners enforce acoustic measures.  We need stronger protection for things that already are; whether they be clubs, pubs, local mechanics, farmers' sheep, or even church bells.  Things that existed beforehand should have priority.  Don't move next door to something that has aways made a noise and then whinge about it.

I suspect there is probably some european legislation about a right to live quietly which most other european governments happily ignore, but historically we've always been crap when it comes to ignoring EU legislation.


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